Make sure the amplifier is for digital cable and that it supports the capability to return a signal to the cable company. The use of splitters should be minimized.

An amp won't really help in this case - the S/N is horrible. You can't amplify just the signal - it will amplify the noise too.

Likely this is an ingress issue and needs to be debugged. The process to do this is running a cable straight from the outside box at the curb to the STB, then from the first place it comes into the house etc. Keep going until the bad section of cable is identified. A good tech will do this for you. A bad one will not - but if you have the S/N screen up when they come you will have a better chance. Of course you can try to do as much yourself as possible by getting a long cable, or moving you STB around with a small TV.

xnappo

Well, Electroline makes a drop amp that will provide each set with the same signal level that comes from the box outside and will work the cable/voip modem. It is a two way system and I've read great things about it. If I recall, the last tech said I has a signal of 12db coming in. I will talk to TWC about it and see what can be done. I could also have a bad splitter. I will try to send the input of the splitter directly to the box (bypassing the splitter) and repost my findings. Can someone give me an idea of what "acceptable" levels would be?

Here is the amp I'm looking at:

Electroline Amp/Splitter (http://www.electroline.com/en/products/drop_amplifiers/eda_ft/index.html)

The first post in the SARA Tips thread has level info. I assume you can find that thread. If not, see my signature. ;)

The amp looks good. You or the cable company should verify the cable being used in the house is for digital cable not old cable that was used for analog cable service. Several years ago, when I first started using VOD, the cable company replaced all the cables in the house, replaced the splitters to be compatible with digital cable, and reduced the number of splitters. About a year later, they installed an amplifier for the entire house. This was shortly before I got my DVRs and because of this I think I have had fewer problems with my DVRs than what most other people report. I agree with xnappo that you need to have a clean signal before you amplify it.

Well, Electroline makes a drop amp that will provide each set with the same signal level that comes from the box outside and will work the cable/voip modem. It is a two way system and I've read great things about it. If I recall, the last tech said I has a signal of 12db coming in. I will talk to TWC about it and see what can be done. I could also have a bad splitter. I will try to send the input of the splitter directly to the box (bypassing the splitter) and repost my findings. Can someone give me an idea of what "acceptable" levels would be?

Here is the amp I'm looking at:

Electroline Amp/Splitter (http://www.electroline.com/en/products/drop_amplifiers/eda_ft/index.html)

Yes, All the runs are RG-6 BrightWire and I believe the signal coming from the node is good. I honestly think the eight way splitter is putting a hurtin' on the level. I may call and have a tech come out and ask him what the level is at the node and then what it is at the input side of the splitter. Possibly change out the splitter and check the grounding barrel too. I guess the way I see it is that I pay TWC $140 a month for my services and I should be having no problems with them. I feel as though they should fix it.

Absolutely they should fix it as long as they installed the 8-way splitter and the problem is not somewhere in the house (unless you pay their inside fee too).

Time Warner has free service calls here and when I turned on my service the tech metered each of the eight lines and said the signal was in the "acceptable" range. However, this was before any of my phone service or DVR was added. I don't have a problem adding my own amp if I have to, but it would be nice if they provided it. Back when I used to do service work for a TV repair company, Adelphia/Harron Cable was the provider and used to tell their customers that they only supply enough signal to each home to support a 4 way split. Of course this was about 15 years ago, but it has me wondering what the cut off is for signal strength nowadays.

That's a good question, Ben, and has probably changed quite a bit. I've always tried to limit my inside splits to 2, but never paid much attention to how things were done outside. An 8-way split seems like an awful lot to me, but then I only have a 4-way outside. I did have a double 2-way when I first got my HDTV and DVR. I had problems, so I reconfigured so there was only a 2-way and all has been fine since.

Well, it's only one splitter. The home was wired for cable in every room and was like that when I bought the house. The fact is, over the past year I added DVR service, HD cable and upgraded digital service. I'm sure this has something to do with my issues.

Of course this was about 15 years ago, but it has me wondering what the cut off is for signal strength nowadays.One thing that has really changed is the frequencies that the cable companies are now using. Those splitters may have only been good for 500MHz, cable today is using 750MHz-1GHz.

No, the splitter is a two way digital as well. Like I said, I will check with Time Warner and see what becomes of it.

No, the splitter is a two way digital as well. Like I said, I will check with Time Warner and see what becomes of it.The "digital"labelmeans nothing (nice marketing term). But, having TW resolve it is usually the best approach (they are pretty competent 90 miles to your west).

I was implying that is is digital compatible in terms of frequency 54 - 1000. Sorry for the confusion. I will give them a call tomorrow and see when a tech can come out.

Excuse me.Do not mean to offend anyone but this is the Navigator forum.We seem to be getting off track.Anyone with any new NAVIGATOR news?

Excuse me.Do not mean to offend anyone but this is the Navigator forum.We seem to be getting off track.Anyone with any new NAVIGATOR news?

No news here in Charlotte, but the link to the Navigator page at twc.com is back up. http://www.timewarnercable.com/charlotte/products/cable/navigator/ It had been removed, so something is obviously stirring. I watched some of the 411 channel over the weekend thinking that there might be something there, and the guide they used in the instruction videos didn't lool anything like my Passport, so I don't know if it was Navigator or not. And I don't know what SARA looks like, so that could have been the guide.

Well it's July Navigator is showing up in Raleigh and it seems Charlotte is being prepped.Only thing I can say is us SARA users better watch out for August and September here.Do not know what it means but a banner saying Time Warner test pattern has been on a couple of my channels a couple of times.

News Flash-Understand a Time Warner EXEC told a division managers meeting that Navigator has a thumbs up to launch to all divisions.

Well it's July Navigator is showing up in Raleigh and it seems Charlotte is being prepped.Only thing I can say is us SARA users better watch out for August and September here.Do not know what it means but a banner saying Time Warner test pattern has been on a couple of my channels a couple of times.

My source at TWC tells me that any boxes going out with Navigator should not be and are probably beta boxes that have been returned but not re-loaded with Passport. Apparently there were over 1000 bugs reported during the beta period. Navigator should be postponed for several months before an actual widespread roll-out in Raleigh.

Ted

Well, they better be damn sure that it's working properly. I expect a few bugs with anything new, but after the Lincoln debacle they should make sure this thing is going to work. I for one, hope it has the touted features, especially the channel mapping and guide editing. Nothing is more of a pain than having to scroll through the guide to see the same channels 5 times over in different tiers. Well see, but I figure that since I'm on SARA it won't happen until a little later so everyone else gets to be the guinea pig! To everyone out there, please keep us posted as things roll out in your respective divisions. I'm in the Central New York/Syracuse Market and its pretty big now (even covers Utica) so anything that happens I will post.

Have bugs ever stopped TWC from launching a product yet.They launch and fix and the customer be d**ed.

What are the early plans for the thousands of Pioneer boxes, (which I have one) that were said did not have enough memory for Navigator? There are still so many in circulation, where I live. (Last year, my local TWC office said that they would be getting Navigator on them, but would be the last to get it.) Are they working on software updates for those boxes? Or is the roll out only applicable to SA and Motorola boxes? Can we keep our Pioneer boxes with Passport on them until they die out and are forced to upgrade?

These regional offices have been keeping all of us in the dark for too long! For the $90/month that I pay, and my loyalty to Passport software, is there a time frame for when the roll out is expected? What should we do? (I mean, OTHER THAN PRAY!) LOL!

Jack

Well only TWC knows what is happening but I do know quite a few Navigators showing up in Raleigh on 8300 boxes.TWC has also updated their web site claiming Navigator is comeing soon.

I have some news for Charlotte. Been having problems with my SA 8300HD. When the tech came out today, he replaced my box. He replaced it with a new OCAP box. He said today is the first day that they are being installed. This was his first one and maybe the first in the region. Anyway it took a long time to set up, probably close to an hour. When we finally got the thing up and runnning it was loaded with.... Navigator. I was not very happy, but I'm going to give it a try. It seems really sluggish and not very intuitive. I'm not sure if the sluggishness is the software or the fact that the new boxes have a two way cable card in them which might be making things like channel switching take longer.

Of note, the HDMI port on this box seems to be disabled. I've never had a problem using the HDMI port in this region but it does not work on this box. Anyone know if this has something to do with Navigator and is there a way to turn it on in the software?

Been having problems with my SA 8300HD. When the tech came out today, he replaced my box. He replaced it with a new OCAP box. Wonder if newer STB models have more memory or other features that boost effective resolution from the typical <1300 lines (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5175424#post5175424) (from HDNet)? NYC TWC users are starting to get a new non-DVR Samsung converter. -- John

Wonder if newer STB models have more memory or other features that boost effective resolution from the typical <1300 lines (from HDNet)? NYC TWC users are starting to get a new non-DVR Samsung converter. -- John


I doubt it. This was still a SA 8300HD box. It was just an"OCAP" box to comply with the new FCC regs.

New Navigator sightings in North Carolina.Navigator is now showing up in Raleigh,Charlotte(Both confirmed sightings)A neighbor of mine has a beach house near Havelock at the coast and just had cable installed and yes his dvr has Navigator.It seems the unannouncd Navigator rollout has begun.Will let everyone know his feedback on it as I receive it.

New Navigator sightings in North Carolina.Navigator is now showing up in Raleigh,Charlotte(Both confirmed sightings)A neighbor of mine has a beach house near Havelock at the coast and just had cable installed and yes his dvr has Navigator.It seems the unannouncd Navigator rollout has begun.Will let everyone know his feedback on it as I receive it.

Hopefully we will *finally* get an answer on whether an external eSATA drive works or not soon!

xnappo

Of note, the HDMI port on this box seems to be disabled. I've never had a problem using the HDMI port in this region but it does not work on this box. Anyone know if this has something to do with Navigator and is there a way to turn it on in the software?

Well,that would just NOT work for me. I have an IN72 hooked through an Onkyo HT-640 via HDMI. The A/V receiver handles the switching between my STB and Bravo via it's HDMI. So, they would have to give me a box that was HDMI capable.

On a side note, I talked with a TWC tech the other day and he said there are very few 8300HDC boxes in circulation here. He also said that TWC has scrapped the multi-room DVR project because it "just wouldn't work reliably and had too many glitches". Hmmmm, that didn't stop them with Navigator? Anyway, a two way CableCard solution would help out a ton of people! My father could then get rid of his STB and replace it with a card as would many others.

Any news on Navigator for Motorola STB'S?

Wonder if newer STB models have more memory or other features that boost effective resolution from the typical <1300 lines (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=5175424#post5175424) (from HDNet)? NYC TWC users are starting to get a new non-DVR Samsung converter. -- John

You know John, I wonder whether the reason the 8300 only takes up about 6 gigs of space per hour of HD recording when unfiltered OTA HD takes up about 9 (a reduction of about a third) has a direct correlation between the roughly 1/3 fewer lines of resolution the 8300 seems to output. Maybe that's where it "went"...?

New Navigator sightings in North Carolina.Navigator is now showing up in Raleigh,Charlotte(Both confirmed sightings)A neighbor of mine has a beach house near Havelock at the coast and just had cable installed and yes his dvr has Navigator.It seems the unannouncd Navigator rollout has begun.Will let everyone know his feedback on it as I receive it.

Oh, FRACK! Maybe they're just dumping it on new boxes and we'll be safe for awhile longer.... :o

Well,that would just NOT work for me. I have an IN72 hooked through an Onkyo HT-640 via HDMI. The A/V receiver handles the switching between my STB and Bravo via it's HDMI. So, they would have to give me a box that was HDMI capable.

On a side note, I talked with a TWC tech the other day and he said there are very few 8300HDC boxes in circulation here. He also said that TWC has scrapped the multi-room DVR project because it "just wouldn't work reliably and had too many glitches". Hmmmm, that didn't stop them with Navigator? Anyway, a two way CableCard solution would help out a ton of people! My father could then get rid of his STB and replace it with a card as would many others.
It's not just a card swap...He would have to buy a NEW two-way CableCARD
capable OCAP HTDV....which are still in test....

The FCC does not currently require "OCAP". The FCC regulation that went into effect on July 1, 2007 requires that cable companies seperate the security portion from being "integrated" in new cable boxes. This is called the "Integrtion Ban". The current solution is for the cable companies to use cable cards. In the future, the security software may be downloaded to the box using DCAS. Most DCAS solutions use OCAP, but I think there is one that doesn't. Currently, the only Cable Card Set Top Boxes that work with VOD, Pay per View, etc. are the SA and Motorola Cable Card Set Top Boxes. The FCC is considering a proposal that would allow any Set Top Box to work with VOD, Pay per View, etc. see Dave Hancock's post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10984761&&#post10984761) that better explains this and links to the FCC request for comments. This proposal does include using OCAP.

I doubt it. This was still a SA 8300HD box. It was just an"OCAP" box to comply with the new FCC regs.

Hello all,
Need a bit of help here. Just got HD for the first time, so TWC switched out my old 8300 HD DVR and gave me a 8300 HDC. I can not for the life of me access the "service menu" as I was able to on my old box. I've tried almost every combo of pressing and holding buttons to no avail. Any ideas? Thanks.

Hello all,
Need a bit of help here. Just got HD for the first time, so TWC switched out my old 8300 HD DVR and gave me a 8300 HDC. I can not for the life of me access the "service menu" as I was able to on my old box. I've tried almost every combo of pressing and holding buttons to no avail. Any ideas? Thanks.

Do things look really different? It is quite possible your software has been changed to Navigator... What software did you have before?

xnappo

Well things look different, but of course I went from a 36" CRT to a 60" SXRD :) The previous 8300 SD DVR was running Passport. When the current one boots up it doesn't say SARA or Passport. Confused.

Well things look different, but of course I went from a 36" CRT to a 60" SXRD :) The previous 8300 SD DVR was running Passport. When the current one boots up it doesn't say SARA or Passport. Confused.Blue_Rage. It would help the rest of us a great deal if you would PLEASE INCLUDE YOUR LOCATION (City & State) IN YOUR PROFILE. What is happening in your location may well be different than in others and we are trying to figure out where Navigator is appearing in these new boxes.

Thanks

Sorry about that, thought I had. Should be fixed now but just in case. It's TWC Hudson Valley. I'm in Middletown, NY.

Great,

Someone on TW a little further upstate (Albany) has reported that they are still running SARA (though a new version) on SA8300HDC boxes. But there have been reports of Navigator showing up on new boxes in some Passport areas. It's still too early to tell if there is any particular pattern.

BTW: Cable can, and does, limit loading new software to specific customers.

Great,

Someone on TW a little further upstate (Albany) has reported that they are still running SARA (though a new version) on SA8300HDC boxes. But there have been reports of Navigator showing up on new boxes in some Passport areas. It's still too early to tell if there is any particular pattern.

BTW: Cable can, and does, limit loading new software to specific customers.

Well, here is a picture of Navigator's guide:
http://www.timewarnercable.com/MediaLibrary/4/57/assets/images/navigator/navigator_0612_578x212.jpg

and here is Passport:
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/508/medium/passport_guide.JPG

and SARA:
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/508/medium/sara_guide.JPG

We obviously need a better way to tell :)

xnappo

Since the colors and what's in the boxes are variables,
the only obvious difference in main menu seems to be use of A-B-C keys:

NAVIGATOR IPG:
A = ACCESS MENU (A again = What's Playing Now),
B = FIND SHOWS, C = RETURN
With numerous sub-menus for lots of bells and whistles....

PASSPORT IPG:
A = Time, B = Theme, C = Search

SARA IPG:
A = Browse by, B = Date, C = "Return" symbol

But I'll bet we'll hear that there are variations on the above....

And there are numerous other differences beyond the main menu.....

No substitue for good old diagnostics pages. :)

I also could not get into the diagnostic page on my new SA 8300HDC. When I hold down select and exit I get a beep and a little flying envelope icon appears on the box. This is the same icon the tech waited for on the box before proceeding with my install.

Since the colors and what's in the boxes are variables,
the only obvious difference in main menu seems to be use of A-B-C keys:

NAVIGATOR IPG:
A = ACCESS MENU (A again = What's Playing Now),
B = FIND SHOWS, C = RETURN
With numerous sub-menus for lots of bells and whistles....

PASSPORT IPG:
A = Time, B = Theme, C = Search

SARA IPG:
A = Browse by, B = Date, C = "Return" symbol

But I'll bet we'll hear that there are variations on the above....

And there are numerous other differences beyond the main menu.....

I don't know about anyone else, but the A button on my remote gives me the Access Menu and I'm running SARA. Also, the pictures xnappo posted of SARA look way nicer than what mine do on screen. My SARA guide and menu has jagged text and blurry logos. The DVR List looks nice and crisp with smooth text, but everything else looks like DOS line commands from a Commodore 64. The Navigator software looks sweet and would be sweet if it worked as nice as it looks!

Anyway, a two way CableCard solution would help out a ton of people! My father could then get rid of his STB and replace it with a card as would many others.

Not quite that easy... how many displays have cable card slots? Not that many AND I notice Samsung is NOT putting the on their latest HD CDs even though they seem to have QAM tuners.

We see the M-cards being distributed with the new "non-integrated security" boxes, but do such cards work in old TVs w/cable card slots?

We see the M-cards being distributed with the new "non-integrated security" boxes, but do such cards work in old TVs w/cable card slots?Yes (http://www.opencable.com/primer/cablecard_primer.html)
M-Card: A two-way CableCARD module that implements all of the multi-stream functionality as well as the single-stream functionality (for backward compatibility purposes) of the CableCARD-2.0 Interface specification.

BUT: Your Cable company might not provide a "stand-alone" M-Card unless you had a device that could make use of the multi-stream feature. There are no FCC regulations yet to mandate that they provide you with any particular type of CableCard.

I also could not get into the diagnostic page on my new SA 8300HDC. When I hold down select and exit I get a beep and a little flying envelope icon appears on the box. This is the same icon the tech waited for on the box before proceeding with my install.

When you get that little envelope hit the "Info" button then wait a couple seconds and the diag pages should pop up. Or at least that's how it works here in Lincoln.

It seems in Passport areas the 8300hdc is being released with Navigator but in Sara areas it has sara 1.90.Anyone who has1.90 see any difference than 1.89? !.89 here in Greensboro NC.

Also, the pictures xnappo posted of SARA look way nicer than what mine do on screen. My SARA guide and menu has jagged text and blurry logos. The DVR List looks nice and crisp with smooth text, but everything else looks like DOS line commands from a Commodore 64.If that SARA image came off the internet, I believe it's been cleaned up and is not how it really looks at home.

When you get that little envelope hit the "Info" button then wait a couple seconds and the diag pages should pop up. Or at least that's how it works here in Lincoln.If that doesn't work, try pressing the Page Down (-) button.

Well, here is a picture of Navigator's guide:
http://www.timewarnercable.com/MediaLibrary/4/57/assets/images/navigator/navigator_0612_578x212.jpg

and here is Passport:
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/508/medium/passport_guide.JPG

and SARA:
http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/508/medium/sara_guide.JPG

We obviously need a better way to tell :)

xnappo


If I were to go by those pictures, I'm running Navigator. Still wish I could access the diagnostics page.

It seems in Passport areas the 8300hdc is being released with Navigator but in Sara areas it has sara 1.90.Anyone who has1.90 see any difference than 1.89? !.89 here in Greensboro NC.

I have speculated about Passport areas getting 8300HDCs w/Navigator. BUT we need someone who is IN a Passport area to get the new box and tell us what it's running.

As for the cable card, all the new Samsung LCDs seem to have QAM tuners but no longer have models with actual slots... a disturbing trend. My display does NOT have one and I wish it did (I would "keep" the DVR service as it is, a cable card would give me more options, like I could set the box to only buffer the channel it's recording, have it not buffer the other and use the cable card for live viewing.

I have speculated about Passport areas getting 8300HDCs w/Navigator. BUT we need someone who is IN a Passport area to get the new box and tell us what it's running.

As for the cable card, all the new Samsung LCDs seem to have QAM tuners but no longer have models with actual slots... a disturbing trend. My display does NOT have one and I wish it did (I would "keep" the DVR service as it is, a cable card would give me more options, like I could set the box to only buffer the channel it's recording, have it not buffer the other and use the cable card for live viewing.

Well It appears I have gone from Passport to Navigator.

As for the cable card, all the new Samsung LCDs seem to have QAM tuners but no longer have models with actual slots... a disturbing trend. That's been happening with a lot of displays (many Sony models for example). Because of the lack of interactive capability in industry (not the fault of CableCards BTW), CableCards have limited interest. As just providing the slot adds expense, many companies have dropped CCs as a way to further lower the cost of the sets. Expect to see a resurgence with OCAP capable interactive sets with a slot for an M-Card.

It seems my source was correct the rollout abeit in secret of Navigator has begun.

Well It appears I have gone from Passport to Navigator.

Did you just get a 8300HDC (DVR with a cable card slot)? TWC?

Expect to see a resurgence with OCAP capable interactive sets with a slot for an M-Card.

Trust me, I'm counting on that happening! A cable card slot was added to my list of "got to haves" for my next display back last summer. I am keenly interested in 120Hz refresh rates and LED backlighting, both of which will soon be shipping from my current favorite maker (Samsung). Even though I'm only a year into my cycle, glossy screens and no cable card slots negate them. Next year should see second generation LED, the return of non-glare screens and cable card slots (all real possibilities). Assuming they DO come to pass, another 9 months for the pricing to drop and I'd be on the cusp. Lacking something and I'd look more to the 09 models...

Trust me, I'm counting on that happening! A cable card slot was added to my list of "got to haves" for my next display back last summer. I am keenly interested in 120Hz refresh rates and LED backlighting, both of which will soon be shipping from my current favorite maker (Samsung). Even though I'm only a year into my cycle, glossy screens and no cable card slots negate them. Next year should see second generation LED, the return of non-glare screens and cable card slots (all real possibilities). Assuming they DO come to pass, another 9 months for the pricing to drop and I'd be on the cusp. Lacking something and I'd look more to the 09 models...As Samsung has been working with CableLabs on OCAP capable sets (I believe that some models are available now and are in a Beta test with TW in NYC), your wait shouldn't be too long. But being able to PURCHASE an OCAP compliant DVR with M-Card is another matter.

Did you just get a 8300HDC (DVR with a cable card slot)? TWC?

Yes I did. TWC Hudson Valley. See my post a few up starting with #1140.

Oh as a side note, I had no trouble what so ever adding an external HD. Just reboot and viola! It was one I purchased here: http://www.aicmicro.com/productdetail.asp?id=31725
Seegate it appears. Now if I could just get to the diagnostics page,

Oh as a side note, I had no trouble what so ever adding an external HD. Just reboot and viola! It was one I purchased here: http://www.aicmicro.com/productdetail.asp?id=31725
Seegate it appears. Now if I could just get to the diagnostics page,

Best news I have heard all day!

May be time for a Navigator compatibility database!

xnappo

Oh as a side note, I had no trouble what so ever adding an external HD. Just reboot and viola! It was one I purchased here: http://www.aicmicro.com/productdetail.asp?id=31725
Seegate it appears. Now if I could just get to the diagnostics page,

Someone else with Navigator - help him out! I know some of you have mentioned looking at diags pages...

xnappo

I just moved into a new place here in the Charlotte area, and decided to upgrade my box. Unfortunately, the new Navigator 8300HDC is TERRIBLE compared to my Passport 8300HD. Navigator is a SIGNIFICANTLY slower system. Like, almost unusably slow. Anyone have ideas for speeding this thing up?

Anyone have ideas for speeding this thing up?Drop it off a tall building? Fire it out of a cannon?

Oh as a side note, I had no trouble what so ever adding an external HD. Just reboot and viola! It was one I purchased here: http://www.aicmicro.com/productdetail.asp?id=31725
Seegate it appears. Now if I could just get to the diagnostics page,

In reference to this. I have noticed that the external HD is constantly going. It sounds as if it's always accessing/writing to the HD. Is this normal? This is my first external HD hookup so I don't have a reference. I feel like the HD will not last long at this rate, but who knows.

Oh as a side note, I had no trouble what so ever adding an external HD. Just reboot and viola! It was one I purchased here: http://www.aicmicro.com/productdetail.asp?id=31725
Seegate it appears. Now if I could just get to the diagnostics page,

That is great news. I know you haven't found the diagnostic page yet, but did the 8300 acknowledge the presence of the external HD, so that you know it has actually added the capacity?

In reference to this. I have noticed that the external HD is constantly going. It sounds as if it's always accessing/writing to the HD. Is this normal? This is my first external HD hookup so I don't have a reference. I feel like the HD will not last long at this rate, but who knows.

It's doing what it's designed to do in a streaming video application. No worries, Mate.

It's doing what it's designed to do in a streaming video application. No worries, Mate.

Ah ok, I was a bit worried as the HD is constantly going, even when the DVR is off.

That is great news. I know you haven't found the diagnostic page yet, but did the 8300 acknowledge the presence of the external HD, so that you know it has actually added the capacity?

Well my storage went from 81% full to 8% full. So I have to assume it's been recognized. Also when I booted for the first time it asked me to format the external.

Well my storage went from 81% full to 8% full. So I have to assume it's been recognized. Also when I booted for the first time it asked me to format the external.

It just keeps getting better. It's pretty apparent from your comments that it sees and uses the external drive. I guess Navigator also provides storage usage indication on one of the main screens, which Passport didn't, so that also is a definite plus.

Now maybe we can get really greedy and learn whether Navigator doesn't have the infamous trick-play problem that Passort suffers from. Are you able to rewind or fast forward within a live program that you are not recording?

It just keeps getting better. It's pretty apparent from your comments that it sees and uses the external drive. I guess Navigator also provides storage usage indication on one of the main screens, which Passport didn't, so that also is a definite plus.

Now maybe we can get really greedy and learn whether Navigator doesn't have the infamous trick-play problem that Passort suffers from. Are you able to rewind or fast forward within a live program that you are not recording?

Yes I'm able to pause, fast forward and rewind live programming that I am not recording. Although I'm about 99% sure I was able to do this with my prior box running Passport. And yes when you hit the list button, along with showing your recordings, etc. it also tells you the percentage full your HD's are.

Yes I'm able to pause, fast forward and rewind live programming that I am not recording. Although I'm about 99% sure I was able to do this with my prior box running Passport. And yes when you hit the list button, along with showing your recordings, etc. it also tells you the percentage full your HD's are.

Blue_Rage - this was only an issue with Passport with an external drive hooked up.

xnappo

Blue_Rage - this was only an issue with Passport with an external drive hooked up.

xnappo

Ah ok. Well I'm happy to report it works now with Navigator.

Navigator is beginning to sound better.Does it have the copy to vcr as SARA and PASSPORT have?

For those Navigator users in North Carolina.I am on SARA 1.89 here in Greensboro.How many recording options does Navigator have in compareson to PASSPORT?

You must press and hold the select button on the remote until the "Message Light" flashes then press the down arrow button. This will take you to the box diag screen for all Navigator boxes. MDN or ODN.

BTW, MDN is Navigator for legecy boxes, ODN is for OCAP boxes.

How do you reboot these boxes via the remote? Thanks :cool:

I'm in Charlotte, and yesterday I purchased a second HDTV for my bedroom and picked up a new Scientific Atlanta 8300HDC set top box/DVR. I was told that yesterday was the first time they began using these new boxes with Navigator, in place of the previous 8300HD. Right now, I'm having problems with the new box as I'm receiving certain HD channels, but not others that I should be receiving. I spoke with TWC customer service yesterday and they have no clue as to what is going on with the new boxes. If anyone gets the new 8300HDC to work correctly, please let me know. Thanks!

Ron

Ron,

Now, I'm NOT saying this is the problem for sure and the fact remains that it could very well be a Navigator issue. However, when I added and removed additional STB's from my account I did experience similar issues as well. A simple reset of all equipment to the account should solve it. It also possible that this may not be an issue with the box. Check ALL your channels and see if any others (particularly digitals) are missing. They will be there, but will be black with no audio. If they are, you may very well have a signal level problem. If you are running a cable modem and multiple STB's through a multiport splitter it's a possible problem. I had this issue with my 8300 and TWC came out checked the lines and recently provided a drop amp to keep my levels up and compensate for the splitter. Just a few ideas to check to confirm this is indeed a Navigator issue.

Ben, you may be on to something with the signal level problem. I have a cable modem and splitter connected to this cable outlet. I also live in an apartment complex where I'm sure the signal is split many times. The confusing thing is that the HDTV in my den with the older 8300HD box is fine. I have a tech coming tomorrow and will post the results. Let me know if anyone has any additional ideas/advice.

Ron

Let us know how you make out. HD channels use a ton of bandwidth and are usually the first channels to be affected by poor signal levels. I'm hoping that is your problem seeing as how TWC has apparent plans to rollout Navigator nationwide. It will be disheartening if it still has major issues.

when I added and removed additional STB's from my account I did experience similar issues as well. A simple reset of all equipment to the account should solve it.

When you add equipment or channels, the information is entered into the "billing system" which then forwards that info to the actual cable system that actually transmits the cable signals to your house.

In my area (Salisbury, NC) they use a bar-code scanner to enter the cable box/DVR info into the billing system, so it is usually correct (if they remember to actually do it and they have correctly selected your account) but the "channels"/package that you subscribe to is entered manually. SO it depends on a human to get it right, sometimes that's a lot to ask for.

Each cable box/DVR has a unique ID (MAC) that must be registered with the cable system, so you may have one box that works, another that doesn't. Sometimes it appears that the billing system fails to update the cable system or the update just doesn't "take".

So quite often the "fix" is for them to tell the billing system to resend the info to the cable system. I'm about 10 minutes from my local cable office. When I take a box in for replacement, it usually doesn't work when I get home - there hasn't been enough time elapsed for the info to get over to the cable system, so I usually have to call and get them to "bump" the system.

You can't reboot box with remote, but you can with the keys on the front of the box. To reboot MDN you press the (Vol + and Vol - and Info) buttons all at once, I assume this will work with ODN.
Oh no! This isn't good for me. Being able to reboot my SARA 8300HD via the remote really helps because I'm disabled and can't fiddle with the box or power strip. :(

More Navigator sightings.My neighboros parents live in Durham NC and just had their 8300hd replaced and shazam Navigator arrived in their home.Also in Emerald Isle NC two people i know there just now Navigator on new boxes and as i understand it one box was not a hd 8300.

When you add equipment or channels, the information is entered into the "billing system" which then forwards that info to the actual cable system that actually transmits the cable signals to your house.

In my area (Salisbury, NC) they use a bar-code scanner to enter the cable box/DVR info into the billing system, so it is usually correct (if they remember to actually do it and they have correctly selected your account) but the "channels"/package that you subscribe to is entered manually. SO it depends on a human to get it right, sometimes that's a lot to ask for.

Each cable box/DVR has a unique ID (MAC) that must be registered with the cable system, so you may have one box that works, another that doesn't. Sometimes it appears that the billing system fails to update the cable system or the update just doesn't "take".

So quite often the "fix" is for them to tell the billing system to resend the info to the cable system. I'm about 10 minutes from my local cable office. When I take a box in for replacement, it usually doesn't work when I get home - there hasn't been enough time elapsed for the info to get over to the cable system, so I usually have to call and get them to "bump" the system.

Unfortunately with the new boxes there may be more to it than that. When I received my new 8300 HDC a tech installed it. He called it in. It was activated and all channels worked except for half of the HD tier channels. The signals were all at acceptable levels, so that was not the problem. Those channels had the call customer service message on them. I spent a great deal of of time on the phone with multiple techs, billing and customer service. No one could get those channels to work by sending signals to the box or by rebooting. Eventually I found a tech who got it to work, but it only worked after a reboot. I'm not sure what he did differently, but some things lead me to believe he activated everything on the box and then removed the tiers I shouldn't have had.

I have speculated about Passport areas getting 8300HDCs w/Navigator. BUT we need someone who is IN a Passport area to get the new box and tell us what it's running.

As for the cable card, all the new Samsung LCDs seem to have QAM tuners but no longer have models with actual slots... a disturbing trend. My display does NOT have one and I wish it did (I would "keep" the DVR service as it is, a cable card would give me more options, like I could set the box to only buffer the channel it's recording, have it not buffer the other and use the cable card for live viewing.

I am in NYC and have friends that moved into an apartment recently. They had cable boxes installed after the July 1st deadline; one HD box and one HD-DVR box. The HD box was the new Samsung running Navigator and the HD-DVR was the 8300 HDC running Navigator. I recently moved in April, and luckily was still able to get the 8300 HD and I am still running Passport, thankfully.

Have there been any timetables as to when they'll "upgrade" 8300 HD Passport users to Navigator? I don't want to give it up. I was using my friend's HDC box and the interface was just painfully slow, reminded me of CableVision's crap iO interface in NJ.

MDN or ODN.

BTW, MDN is Navigator for legecy boxes, ODN is for OCAP boxes.

Confused, I thought Navigator brought OCAP to us, period. Are you saying MDN Navigator will go on 8300HDs and ODN Navigator will go on 8300HDC boxes?

Saying "OCAP box" kind of implies it's burned into hardware. For a brand new, middleware kind of product that makes NO sense.

Yes I'm able to pause, fast forward and rewind live programming that I am not recording. Although I'm about 99% sure I was able to do this with my prior box running Passport. And yes when you hit the list button, along with showing your recordings, etc. it also tells you the percentage full your HD's are.

Let be careful here... it has been well established that the Passport trick play bug ONLY happens when the channel you are viewing is using the external drive for it's buffer. Apparently, the buffer for the currently tuned channel goes to the drive with the largest amount of free space.

BUT all this comes not from any documentation, but from a ton of actual experience by numerous folks. Assuming that Navigator does indeed behave exactly like Passport in where the buffer goes, a brand new external drive when it's first installed has GOT to have that "largest amount of free space." No trick play bug in this and we CAN jump for joy.

BUT, there one big assumption in there, so I would hesitate to call it 100% fixed. As we see more TWC customers move from Passport to Navigator, we can amass more anecdotal evidence... but assumptions aside, this is encouraging.

Oh no! This isn't good for me. Being able to reboot my SARA 8300HD via the remote really helps because I'm disabled and can't fiddle with the box or power strip. :(

Pretty sure there is SOMETHING that will work for you. There are "clappers" that will turn a remote plug on and off with clapping (sharp noise). There are dual plugs (male/female) that run a wire to a switch to allow A/C to pass or not. I've heard about power strips with remote on-off controls.

I am in NYC and have friends that moved into an apartment recently. They had cable boxes installed after the July 1st deadline; one HD box and one HD-DVR box. The HD box was the new Samsung running Navigator and the HD-DVR was the 8300 HDC running Navigator. I recently moved in April, and luckily was still able to get the 8300 HD and I am still running Passport, thankfully.

Have there been any timetables as to when they'll "upgrade" 8300 HD Passport users to Navigator? I don't want to give it up. I was using my friend's HDC box and the interface was just painfully slow, reminded me of CableVision's crap iO interface in NJ.

It would be FABULOUS if you convinced these friends to sign up to AVS and regularly visit the New York, NY forum (along with this one). We are all desperate to hear real world stuff.

Of course, the HDC represents a very different methodology than the HD boxes, so there is an additional element going on with it than with our "old" HD boxes.

Damn good question about folks with HD/Passport boxes getting Navigator. It may very well be that it could be a few months... BUT I suspect it's SDV that will tell the tale. By September, we will see most other cable/satellite systems delivering FAR more HD than the paltry lineup TWC NYC has. So one would THINK they have compelling reasons to get it deployed on our "old" boxes.

Look at it this way... from a few posts here, it looks like navigator finally does squash the trick play bug... and that (IMO) was a BIG one.

Let be careful here... it has been well established that the Passport trick play bug ONLY happens when the channel you are viewing is using the external drive for it's buffer. Apparently, the buffer for the currently tuned channel goes to the drive with the largest amount of free space.

BUT all this comes not from any documentation, but from a ton of actual experience by numerous folks. Assuming that Navigator does indeed behave exactly like Passport in where the buffer goes, a brand new external drive when it's first installed has GOT to have that "largest amount of free space." No trick play bug in this and we CAN jump for joy.

BUT, there one big assumption in there, so I would hesitate to call it 100% fixed. As we see more TWC customers move from Passport to Navigator, we can amass more anecdotal evidence... but assumptions aside, this is encouraging.

Yes, of course his response reflects only his experience this one time, under current conditions - as you say, anecdotal evidence. I don't think anyone would reasonably have concluded that we can all consider the issue closed, and I wasn't expecting him to close the issue for us with his response.

The circumstances at that moment, however, seemed ideal for me to ask the question of him, since he had just activated his external HD, and his available space had jumped from 8% to 80%, or so, which I would expect to create a condition that would have shown the problem in Passport.

It will be a long time before anyone can conclude with any confidence that Navigator fixes the known Navigator issues, and what, if any, new issues it creates, but it is indeed encouraging, and just one of many anecdotal pieces of evidence that will help us to learn and build a better understanding of life with Navigator.

Spoke to my friend i Havelock NC near the coast.Got a short rundown on Navigator.What he hates is how slow the darn thing is.TWC must find a way to speed it up.He says otherwise in some areas it's as good as Passport.He has not missed any series recordings so far.He misses his old Passport keyword search but says Navigator keyboard is useable.He has had no lockup or rebootin problems so it seems it is getting more stable.Overall he gives it a B- compared to a solid A for Passport.Any futher updates I will pass along.

It would be FABULOUS if you convinced these friends to sign up to AVS and regularly visit the New York, NY forum (along with this one). We are all desperate to hear real world stuff.

Of course, the HDC represents a very different methodology than the HD boxes, so there is an additional element going on with it than with our "old" HD boxes.

Damn good question about folks with HD/Passport boxes getting Navigator. It may very well be that it could be a few months... BUT I suspect it's SDV that will tell the tale. By September, we will see most other cable/satellite systems delivering FAR more HD than the paltry lineup TWC NYC has. So one would THINK they have compelling reasons to get it deployed on our "old" boxes.

Look at it this way... from a few posts here, it looks like navigator finally does squash the trick play bug... and that (IMO) was a BIG one.

It's safe to say they're too lazy and not interested enough to document their experiences, but if you could give me some things to look at and try out, I could do my best to post to this thread and the NY, NY forum the next time I visit their place.

Are most of you getting changed over because you are getting new boxes? Or are your old boxes being updated to Navigator? Is your local TW office giving you advance notice of the change-over, and if so, how much advance notice did you get?

We have many in our area under grandfather-claused contracts with older Pioneer boxes and other earlier models. Still waiting as to how TW deals with this. Most have been very happy with Passport. Do most of Navigator's problems stream from being installed on DVR boxes vs. non-DVR boxes?

Jack

PS. Of what little information I do have, no one has said that they prefer Navigator over Passport, despite TW's preaching about how "great" Navigator is.

Are most of you getting changed over because you are getting new boxes? Or are your old boxes being updated to Navigator? Is your local TW office giving you advance notice of the change-over, and if so, how much advance notice did you get?

It looks like anyone getting a new box (Samsung or 8300HDC) from now on will have the new Navigator software, but those of us with older Passport boxes haven't been 'upgraded' through any automatic updates or have had any warning of such. They probably won't be giving out 8300HDs with Passport anymore, I'm assuming.

Pretty sure there is SOMETHING that will work for you. There are "clappers" that will turn a remote plug on and off with clapping (sharp noise). There are dual plugs (male/female) that run a wire to a switch to allow A/C to pass or not. I've heard about power strips with remote on-off controls.
Power strips w/ remotes sounds interisting, something to look for. Thanks

FYI: See "Net/DC/IR Controlled AC outlets" under "POWER" in fol. website:
http://www.hometech.com/home/index.html
They also have dozens of other IR/RF controlled devices.

Fol. websites also carry lots of useful IR/RF control devices:
http://www.smarthome.com/_/index.aspx
http://www.x10.com/homepage.htm

Are most of you getting changed over because you are getting new boxes? Or are your old boxes being updated to Navigator? Is your local TW office giving you advance notice of the change-over, and if so, how much advance notice did you get?


I think a big part of the problem with the rollout in Lincoln was that TWC gave us blanket updates, regardless of box type (though they did segregate different types of boxes into different rollout times) and then just replaced those boxes that crashed. (Of course, the customers who lost their boxes had to hand-deliver them to the TWC office, or schedule a time to meet with a service person. Not to mention having to go through manually and reset all the favorite programs to be DVR'd on the box.)

Sounds like TWC may have learned their lesson about doing mass experimentation with all kinds of customer boxes. If so, glad we could be of service to you other markets. (Though it would have been nice if they'd have just asked us for input rather than crashing our DVR boxes and figuring it out for themselves.)

Navigator's design flaws are one problem (and need fixin'), but IMHO crashing DVR boxes was a worse problem.

Satch Man, in Charlotte, a tech told me that TWC would not be replacing the "old" 8300HD boxes with the new 8300HDC boxes. He indicated that eventually, the software on the old boxes would be updated to Navigator and that you would wake up one morning and have the new software. Anyone getting a box for the first time or an additional box is getting the 8300HDC with Navigator. I got my 8300HDC with Navigator on Monday and still can't get all of the HD channels that I should be getting. Another tech is coming today, so hopefully he can get the issues worked out.

Ron

It's safe to say they're too lazy and not interested enough to document their experiences, but if you could give me some things to look at and try out, I could do my best to post to this thread and the NY, NY forum the next time I visit their place.

Whatever you can glean from them is useful. Confirmation that the Passport trick play bug (but that means they will have to setup an external storage drive) is gone would be a good place to start. The major thing is that many of us will be going from Passport to Navigator, so if your friends are not very familiar with Passport, their "opinions" might not carry that much weight. So it's probably best to stick to strictly facts rather than opinion... don't you think?

I think a big part of the problem with the rollout in Lincoln was that TWC gave us blanket updates, regardless of box type (though they did segregate different types of boxes into different rollout times) and then just replaced those boxes that crashed. (Of course, the customers who lost their boxes had to hand-deliver them to the TWC office, or schedule a time to meet with a service person. Not to mention having to go through manually and reset all the favorite programs to be DVR'd on the box.)

Sounds like TWC may have learned their lesson about doing mass experimentation with all kinds of customer boxes. If so, glad we could be of service to you other markets. (Though it would have been nice if they'd have just asked us for input rather than crashing our DVR boxes and figuring it out for themselves.)

Navigator's design flaws are one problem (and need fixin'), but IMHO crashing DVR boxes was a worse problem.

That is kind of what I see in reading these comments lately as well.

There was another update here in Lincoln in the last couple days. I think the software version went from 2.3.41AD to 2.3.45AD. No noticeable difference or at least not to me. Haven't really played with it yet.

Since they added the ESPN channels (2HD and U) in the beginning of June I have noticed break ups in the signals for the HD channels at times when I really haven't had any problems before. Was kind of wondering if it had anything to do with putting ESPN2 on SDV or if it is just a problem with the signal they are receiving?

According to one of my friends, who just had cable put in because of a sweetheart year long deal that TW Lincoln gives to people who switch from dishes, they have some of the Samsung boxes here in Lincoln but they are still in testing and that it would be a while before they are used (at least here). That is what the tech told him at least, so I am not sure how accurate it is.

Can someone provide a list of all the known digital cable and box manufactures that create or have created digital boxes since around 2000? This is the year that digital cable was introduced here in Milwaukee Wisconsin. But it didn't "take off" until about 2001. We didn't get digital cable until about 2002. The box manufactures at that time were:

Pioneer

Pace

Scientific Atlanta

These are standard digital cable boxes.

We also have DVR's as optional boxes for an added monthly charge. AFAIK. All of those models are manufactured by SA.

We now have from what I have learned in reading the forums Motorola and Samsung as new boxes from TWC. Pioneer is still "in the field." But is no longer in circulation as a cable box company. What about Pace?

My local TW cable office said last year that all of the boxes would eventually be carried over to Navigator. We know that Navigator is coming as TWC subscribers. We will now get it in box exchanges. We will get it eventually through automatic updates. But the point is, Navigator, like it or not, will effect all TWC subscribers probably sooner than later.

Post what you know about each of these boxes, and Navigator's reactions to them.

Jack

I just got my new box and I have to say it is a tick slower than the 8300 Passport (Charlotte, NC TWC). I do like the interface much better than the passport, but have an issue with one other thing. I am using HDMI and it will not let me change the resolution to match my TV's (1080i). When I go to the resolution tab, it says it you are using DVI or HDMI it will not allow you to change it, so if the channel is 480i it sends 480i to my set... the old box allow me to pick the resolutions even while using HDMI.

Since they added the ESPN channels (2HD and U) in the beginning of June I have noticed break ups in the signals for the HD channels at times when I really haven't had any problems before. Was kind of wondering if it had anything to do with putting ESPN2 on SDV or if it is just a problem with the signal they are receiving? It more likely is due to using a higher QAM frequency which probably has a lower signal level to your house.

Also, are you SURE that they have put ESPN2 on SDV? I would think that they would hold off doing that till everything else is squared away there in Lincoln. I know that SDV is one of the reasons that they gave for going to Navigator, but I think that they have their hands full as it is without additional system complications.

It more likely is due to using a higher QAM frequency which probably has a lower signal level to your house.

Also, are you SURE that they have put ESPN2 on SDV? I would think that they would hold off doing that till everything else is squared away there in Lincoln. I know that SDV is one of the reasons that they gave for going to Navigator, but I think that they have their hands full as it is without additional system complications.

But it is happening to channels that have had no problems in the past? It isn't often, but it is frequent enough to be noticed and not during weather events. It isn't a big deal, I was just throwing it out there to see if I was the only one in case others in Lincoln have had the same things happen.

In some of TW Nebraska's literature they sent out there was a disclaimer that not all channels would be available via cable card including ESPN2. I would think that would mean SDV. But I may be wrong.

When I go to the resolution tab, it says it you are using DVI or HDMI it will not allow you to change it, so if the channel is 480i it sends 480i to my set... the old box allow me to pick the resolutions even while using HDMI.

Ugh, that is annoying. I hate waiting for resolution syncs and the box upcoverts good enough for me.

xnappo

...I do like the interface much better than the passport...When you are in the guide and press the number buttons, does it move the guide or change the channel?

v/r,
C-F

I just got my new box and I have to say it is a tick slower than the 8300 Passport (Charlotte, NC TWC). I do like the interface much better than the passport, but have an issue with one other thing. I am using HDMI and it will not let me change the resolution to match my TV's (1080i). When I go to the resolution tab, it says it you are using DVI or HDMI it will not allow you to change it, so if the channel is 480i it sends 480i to my set... the old box allow me to pick the resolutions even while using HDMI.

I had the same thing in Lincoln when we got Navigator. I just gave up and used component. I also had a problem of not being able to send a DD 5.1 stream to my receiver when I sent the picture straight to the TV via HDMI (my receiver doesn't have HDMI). That was more of the reason for me to go back to component. I haven't tried lately to see if they "fixed" that or not, my guess is that they won't and that they have bigger fish to fry first.

But it is happening to channels that have had no problems in the past? It isn't often, but it is frequent enough to be noticed and not during weather events. It isn't a big deal, I was just throwing it out there to see if I was the only one in case others in Lincoln have had the same things happen.They can easily change the QAM frequency without giving you any clue in the channel number of the guide. Basically, the STB has a map (which is downloaded from the headend) that maps a guide channel number to a specific QAM and bitstream on that QAM. For example, on systems that have digital simulcasting (most systems these days) a SD channel will be on analog AND on a SD QAM. For example, here in Rochester channel 10 analog is 195MHz, but the digital version is on a QAM at 651MHz (and the HD version is on a QAM at 663MHz). When I tune to SD channel 10 on my cable box I automatically get theQAM at 651MHz. If I tune to channel 10 directly on my TV (cable to RF input), I get 195MHz. Or system has moved around the QAM channels in the past without anyone (well I noticed) being the wiser.

In some of TW Nebraska's literature they sent out there was a disclaimer that not all channels would be available via cable card including ESPN2. I would think that would mean SDV. But I may be wrong.You would think so. A year ago there were reports that TW here had put some channels (UniversalHD in particular) on SDV. And they had this disclaimer. Later, I was talking to the head technician of the head end and he told me that they had not yet gone to SDV. The newer version of SARA had some dedicated SDV screens, and checking those have revealed that there still (well the last time I checked, about 6 weeks ago) no SDV channels here. But, I don't know anything about your diagnostic screens, so I can't tell you how to check.

My suggestion: call TW if you have break-up. The SA digital boxes are touchy about levels (either too high or too low) , and the TW techs have all sorts of ways of dealing with it.

When you are in the guide and press the number buttons, does it move the guide or change the channel?

v/r,
C-F

Yes it does, it also allows you to customize the guide, which the old Passport would not, BUT not completely. It will cut the channels I dont want out, but not all of them. When I run through all the channels it will not cut a lot of the specialty channels out, like the NBA or baseball channels for instance.

Yes it does, it also allows you to customize the guide, which the old Passport would not, BUT not completely. It will cut the channels I dont want out, but not all of them. When I run through all the channels it will not cut a lot of the specialty channels out, like the NBA or baseball channels for instance.

So ... How slow is it.. Like press guide 1 1000 2 1000 guide shows up, or worse?

xnappo

I had the same thing in Lincoln when we got Navigator. I just gave up and used component. I also had a problem of not being able to send a DD 5.1 stream to my receiver when I sent the picture straight to the TV via HDMI (my receiver doesn't have HDMI). That was more of the reason for me to go back to component. I haven't tried lately to see if they "fixed" that or not, my guess is that they won't and that they have bigger fish to fry first.

I spoke to customer service tonight because my box would not download OnDemand programming which they did fix. While I had the CSR on the phone I asked about changing the resolution to only 1080 or 720. He told me to connect it up in component then change the resolution there and go back to HDMI and that the problem should be corrected...I haven't tried it yet, I will post it when I add component cables to the box...

So ... How slow is it.. Like press guide 1 1000 2 1000 guide shows up, or worse?

xnappo

Maybe a second longer. The first day I had it, it did bother me, but now it seems pretty normal to me. It would be faster if I can get the resolution switching fixed, that adds time.

Maybe a second longer. The first day I had it, it did bother me, but now it seems pretty normal to me. It would be faster if I can get the resolution switching fixed, that adds time.

Sorry for so many questions - but does it give you an indication it received your command while you are waiting? What about when you go to your list of recorded programs - is that fast?

xnappo

Sorry for so many question - but does it give you an indication it received your command while you are waiting? What about when you go to your list of recorded programs - is that fast?

xnappo

To give you an example, when I hit "list" the list screen comes up then says "loading" for about a second. I dont know how it reacts when its full, mine is 5% full right now.

To give you an example, when I hit "list" the list screen comes up then says "loading" for about a second. I dont know how it reacts when its full, mine is 5% full right now.

Thanks for the info.

It will be interesting. Those of us with SARA don't have any fancy features - but SARA is absolutely instant with any command...

xnappo

Thanks for keeping us Charlotteans informed! Are these new 8300HDC boxes loaded with the newer version of Navigator that reinstates the 'jump-back' when you fast-forward as well as the 'gas gauge' and slow motion? And has Charlotte enabled the 'Caller ID on TV' feature that's available in other areas? THX.

Thanks for keeping us Charlotteans informed! Are these new 8300HDC boxes loaded with the newer version of Navigator that reinstates the 'jump-back' when you fast-forward as well as the 'gas gauge' and slow motion? And has Charlotte enabled the 'Caller ID on TV' feature that's available in other areas? THX.

Jumpback - Yes
Gas Gauge - it gives you a percentage used
Slow motion - Yes
Caller ID - I have Vonage so I can not confirm, but the installer said that it does.

One feature that it lost however was the 15 minute jump feature. On the old box if you were fast forwarding at x3 you could hit the arrow button forward and it would jump 15 minutes, with this box you can't.

Other observations: You can change the sidebars from grey - medium - black. The picture in picture is still horrible, and really unusable IMO.

MDN (Mystro Digital Navigator) will be used or all legacy boxes, the boxes without cable cards. Such as all Pioneer boxes, SA 1000 to 4250 boxes, SA8000, SA8000HD, and SA8300HD.

ODN (OCAP Digital Navigator) will be used on all the new boxes that have cable cards (boxes with numbers ending in C, like SA8300HDC or SA4250C).

From what I understand legacy boxes don't have enough memory to support ODN. Both MDN and ODN are suppose to operate similarly as customers will have both platforms in their homes for a long time. Until the legacy boxes die a natural death.

Ahhhhh, thanks so much for explaining this. Of course, the question then becomes "How can you tell which Navigator variant you have?" We KNOW that with 2 variants running around, it's going to be very difficult for us to track... and we KNOW there will be issues with one variant that the other may not have.

Even more interesting is that if the issue is just to do with memory, that kind of says that the 8300HDC has more RAM than a 8300HD. Which (to me) would be a damn good reason to swap out our 8300HDs as soon as we can clear out our recorded programs!

MDN (Mystro Digital Navigator) will be used or all legacy boxes, the boxes without cable cards. Such as all Pioneer boxes, SA 1000 to 4250 boxes, SA8000, SA8000HD, and SA8300HD.

ODN (OCAP Digital Navigator) will be used on all the new boxes that have cable cards (boxes with numbers ending in C, like SA8300HDC or SA4250C).

From what I understand legacy boxes don't have enough memory to support ODN. Both MDN and ODN are suppose to operate similarly as customers will have both platforms in their homes for a long time. Until the legacy boxes die a natural death.

OK Thanks for explaining this!

I am sure that TWC had to separate the new Navigator into two versions because of the memory issues associated with the legacy (i.e older) boxes. But here is what I don't get. I have a Pioneer box and I know people with older SA boxes. When our Navigator version comes out and the box gets updated with the new software,, what WON'T we be able to do because of the memory restrictions of the older boxes that the newer boxes with more memory (i.e Samsung) WILL be able to do? (Any other differences other than the cable card issue explained above?)

Jack

:( I'm glad I only changed one box.

It took about 10 minutes to completley boot-up, My caller ID On TV function seems not to be working, changing channels and navigating the Access Menu & Guide seems to be a little on the slow side. And my new DVR menu has completedly lost its luster.
I miss Passport!

Egerly Anticipating updates soon

Caller ID on TV usually takes 24 hours to "activate" and show up.

FYI: See "Net/DC/IR Controlled AC outlets" under "POWER" in fol. website:
http://www.hometech.com/home/index.html
They also have dozens of other IR/RF controlled devices.

Fol. websites also carry lots of useful IR/RF control devices:
http://www.smarthome.com/_/index.aspx
http://www.x10.com/homepage.htm
Thanks for the links.

I spoke to customer service tonight because my box would not download OnDemand programming which they did fix. While I had the CSR on the phone I asked about changing the resolution to only 1080 or 720. He told me to connect it up in component then change the resolution there and go back to HDMI and that the problem should be corrected...I haven't tried it yet, I will post it when I add component cables to the box...


I can confirm that problem. I remember being annoyed when playing around on my friend's setup. In settings, the option to choose output resolutions isn't allowed, saying that it isn't available when using the HDMI connection. I can ask him to give the above trick a try to see if that works. I'm sure he's annoyed at the time wasted changing resolutions too on an already slow interface.

:( I'm glad I only changed one box.

It took about 10 minutes to completley boot-up, My caller ID On TV function seems not to be working, changing channels and navigating the Access Menu & Guide seems to be a little on the slow side. And my new DVR menu has completedly lost its luster.
I miss Passport!

Egerly Anticipating updates soon

Wow, are you in Manhattan with a 8300HDC? I've read one person say the Passport trick play bug with an external drive has been fixed, I'd LOVE it if you could confirm that.

Caller ID on TV usually takes 24 hours to "activate" and show up.

Uh, doesn't this mean you MUST have TWCs VOIP plan?

Thanks for the updates,

It appears that the overall roll-out of Navigator is expected to be nationwide by the end of the year. This will be interesting to see how each of the different boxes/DVR units responds to the roll-out in both new boxes and updated formats. Customers are seeing gradual but progressive improvements in the Navigator software, where it appears that Time Warner is doing the roll out on a box to box basis per community mode rather than as stated above, applying blanket updates to all boxes in a test phase situation (i.e Lincoln Nebraska) and than just replacing the boxes that crashed rather than taking too long to update the software that caused the crash in the first place.

It can be inferred that with the early versions of Navigator that the software itself being rushed to market was the problem, NOT the boxes on which it was running. This was why customers needed to have their boxes replaced multiple times. The software wasn't ready. Now, from what I have heard and read the Navigator platform is more stable. Are you still getting excessive rebooting issues? Did you have to reprogram your Favorite Channels, Purchase Pins, or blocking Pin numbers if you use these features? How has Navigator responded to the purchasing of PPV and I-Control (i.e Video on Demand?)

Right now, there seems to be an issue with Navigator that still persists from what I have heard: browsing in the guide is still a bit slower than it was with Passport.

Jack

Uh, doesn't this mean you MUST have TWCs VOIP plan?

Of course.

xnappo

Uh, doesn't this mean you MUST have TWCs VOIP plan?

Yes, which he stated that his Caller ID on TV wasn't showing up. I was merely informing him that it may take up to 24 hours for it to do so. :confused:

I can confirm that problem. I remember being annoyed when playing around on my friend's setup. In settings, the option to choose output resolutions isn't allowed, saying that it isn't available when using the HDMI connection. I can ask him to give the above trick a try to see if that works. I'm sure he's annoyed at the time wasted changing resolutions too on an already slow interface.

In my opinion this is the #1 issue with this new box.

I have not had any lock up issues that needed me to re-boot the box. Although I did have a strange problem the other night where all my DVR functions were lost. I couldn't record, FF, RR or, play a recorded program. I only had the guide. I rebooted and the issue was gone.

Any idea when TWC is rolling out Navigator in the Torrance, CA area?? I just tried swapping my SA8300 for the new MOTO 6416 box and she said that the new box isn't compatible with the old passport software in my area?? Is she BSing me or is this the case?? Thanks guys...

I asked my friend to try forcing the resolution to 720p using a component connection, and then to hook up the HDMI and see if the setting would hold...

...it didn't work.

I just got my new box and I have to say it is a tick slower than the 8300 Passport (Charlotte, NC TWC). I do like the interface much better than the passport, but have an issue with one other thing. I am using HDMI and it will not let me change the resolution to match my TV's (1080i). When I go to the resolution tab, it says it you are using DVI or HDMI it will not allow you to change it, so if the channel is 480i it sends 480i to my set... the old box allow me to pick the resolutions even while using HDMI.


I just got the new box(8300HDC}. I am using HDMI,This dos not happen when i go to the resoltion tab. I can pick 1080i, 720 and it all works like the old box did.No problems so far. Lets hope it keeps going. :cool:

Well bad news im getting if you are using DVI or HDMI it will not allow you to change it in the resolution tab :confused:

I just got the new box(8300HDC}. I am using HDMI,This dos not happen when i go to the resoltion tab. I can pick 1080i, 720 and it all works like the old box did.No problems so far. Lets hope it keeps going. :cool:

Maybe there was a software update recently for Navigator... How does one check the software version on these new boxes? I'll ask my friend to find out his version, and we can compare it to yours, Angel.

Maybe there was a software update recently for Navigator... How does one check the software version on these new boxes? I'll ask my friend to find out his version, and we can compare it to yours, Angel.




This new box (8300HDC) When in the Diag screen it dos not tell you what software version you have.Any one know how to get this???. The old box {8300HD}had about 20 pages. The new box {8300HDC} has 9 pages. :confused:

Guys,

I am going to be getting TWC's "All in One" deal with Road Runner and Digital Phone added to my cable service (my DSL is crap, and I am just waiting for my contract to expire.) This should happen around September-October. The thing is, I am grandfather claused with my current level of service (Digi Pic 1000, HBO/Showtime, and the Digital Sports Package.) Will this be considered so that I don't "lose" any services?

As a sidenote, I will also have Navigator by that time, and a new box because of Digital Phone, so I should be able to give you a heads up on that. Thanks.

Jack

Any idea when TWC is rolling out Navigator in the Torrance, CA area?? I just tried swapping my SA8300 for the new MOTO 6416 box and she said that the new box isn't compatible with the old passport software in my area?? Is she BSing me or is this the case?? Thanks guys...

Anybody?

A poster in the (local) Dayton HDTV thread said TWC delivered an 8300HDC with Navigator on it. I'm not sure how much the Dayton and Cincinnati areas are "linked" yet (they are on paper) but I expect Cincy customers will be getting them too.

checked with my local office yesturday. wanted to trade in my sara 8300 that has had some issues. questioned about new boxes and she said in charlotte they are giving them out but 50 miles north here in statesville they are not.

Well, so far it looks like they are phasing these in slowly instead of one blanket swap out. I can guess that may be for financial reasons, but I'd bet they learned from the Lincoln debacle as well. My question is this: Has anyone using Navigator experienced similar problems to those of the Lincoln residents? (IE: the constant reboots, missed recordings, etc.) I for one, am looking forward to a more intuitive guide than the current SARA version. My main things are a better search, guide customization, and Plug and Play eSATA support. Sure, I'd like a "prettier" GUI, but I'm mainly concerned with functionality. Here in Rome, NY no one is getting Navigator as of right now. I can confirm from a tech that they did start getting the 8300HDC boxes here, but usually the techs get to play with the new stuff before the consumers ever see it. This is what happened with the Multi-Room DVR. The techs beta tested it and found it to be far too inconsistent and buggy, so the division scrapped the whole thing. I quizzed the last tech about the new boxes when he installed my drop amp and he said they are starting to come in, but he didn't see one in operation yet and couldn't confirm what it was loaded with. This guy seemed more competent than some of the contractors I've come across and was knowledgeable and very helpful in getting the amp installed.

I saw on another board that some areas with the older legacy boxes, will have the download of Navigator applied by the 4th quarter of the year at the latest. It really could happen very soon. Something tells me by next month, users will begin to see Navigator downloads to the older boxes. I would say check with your local TWC office for estimated rollout times.

The rollout seems to be going slowly, but progressively. I have not checked with my local TWC office here in Milwaukee for awhile. My view is that the longer the delay is, the less likelihood of problems when it is rolled out to a customer's area.

Jack

The rollout seems to be going slowly, but progressively. I have not checked with my local TWC office here in Milwaukee for awhile. My view is that the longer the delay is, the less likelihood of problems when it is rolled out to a customer's area.

Jack

I agree, I'm hoping to get some more input into features and functionality.

Hey guys, do the new Moto DCH 6416 boxes work with my Passport software, or do they only work with the TV Guide and Navigator software? I went to the office and the lady said the new MOTO's aren't compatible with Passport. I find that hard to believe...and does anyone know when the new Navigator is coming to the south bay?? Thanks!!

Also, is the 8300HD the newest box for my area??

A poster in the (local) Dayton HDTV thread said TWC delivered an 8300HDC with Navigator on it. I'm not sure how much the Dayton and Cincinnati areas are "linked" yet (they are on paper) but I expect Cincy customers will be getting them too.A point to consider: the "new" boxes (the SA8300HDC, and I assume other CC boxes as well) have more applications memory than the old units. This is apparently one of the critical issues with Navigator. So limiting the roll-out of Navigator to new boxes with more memory makes sense.

I understand the sara areas will begin to be Navigator enhanced in mid August.A slow rollout such as in Passport areas.TWC hopes everyone will have NAVIGATOR by years end. Sara 1.89.17.1-Greensboro NC

I just got a new 8300HDC with navigator and i'm not crazy about it. I previously had a 8300 with passport on it, and was quite happy. The new interface is slower, which annoys me to no end but i guess i'll get used to it eventually. The new DVR system is really what bugs me, and that's what i use mostly. Main gripes:

- There is no way to restrict a series to a particular channel as far as i can see. Lets say i only want to record "The Office" on channel 710 (or whatever the HD channel is), it will also try to record "The Office" on channel 10 at the same time.

- No priority system. I want to be able to setup a priority system for my series so that i don't have to go manually resolve every single conflict.

That's the two biggies for now, I just got it installed last weekend. I wanted to record "The Office" and "Grey's Anatomy" last night, both at 9pm, and it ended up recording nothing at all. I had both "The Office" & "Grey's Anatomy" in my series manager, and left to go run some errands. When i came back and checked the recording log (this is a new feature i like), It tried to record both the HD & SD versions of both shows, so it must have popped up something about the conflict but since i wasn't there i wasn't able to select anything. So it recorded nothing.

It could also be that i'm just retarded and don't know how to find these features, I'm going to call time warner and see what's up.

I just got a new 8300HDC with navigator and i'm not crazy about it. I previously had a 8300 with passport on it, and was quite happy.Croupier, thanks for your input. A lot of us are watching and trying to figure out where TW is rolling this out. We would appreciate it if you would go to your user profile (under User CP) and put in your location. That way any post that you make will show "where you are coming from".

I just got a new 8300HDC with navigator and i'm not crazy about it. I previously had a 8300 with passport on it, and was quite happy. The new interface is slower, which annoys me to no end but i guess i'll get used to it eventually. The new DVR system is really what bugs me, and that's what i use mostly. Main gripes:

- There is no way to restrict a series to a particular channel as far as i can see. Lets say i only want to record "The Office" on channel 710 (or whatever the HD channel is), it will also try to record "The Office" on channel 10 at the same time.

- No priority system. I want to be able to setup a priority system for my series so that i don't have to go manually resolve every single conflict.

That's the two biggies for now, I just got it installed last weekend. I wanted to record "The Office" and "Grey's Anatomy" last night, both at 9pm, and it ended up recording nothing at all. I had both "The Office" & "Grey's Anatomy" in my series manager, and left to go run some errands. When i came back and checked the recording log (this is a new feature i like), It tried to record both the HD & SD versions of both shows, so it must have popped up something about the conflict but since i wasn't there i wasn't able to select anything. So it recorded nothing.

It could also be that i'm just retarded and don't know how to find these features, I'm going to call time warner and see what's up.

I do not have that problem here in Charlotte, NC, I can tell it what channel to record on and with what seems like more options than the Passport box...

Navigator spotted in Virginia-A friend of mines sister lives arround the Richmond area and her and husband got a 8300hd replaced and it came with Navigator.THE ROLLOUT continues.SARA rollout starts next month i hear.

Croupier, thanks for your input. A lot of us are watching and trying to figure out where TW is rolling this out. We would appreciate it if you would go to your user profile (under User CP) and put in your location. That way any post that you make will show "where you are coming from".

Done. (San Diego, CA)

I just got one of the Logitech Harmony 880 Universal remotes. Does anyone know if the Passport to Navigator change will effect the settings of the remote, or all the keys the same?

How do youget m-card for the 8300HDC box ??. Looks like it has a slot for it but you can not get to it. Any one know any thing??.Like how to use the slot ?? :confused:

I just got one of the Logitech Harmony 880 Universal remotes. Does anyone know if the Passport to Navigator change will effect the settings of the remote, or all the keys the same?Shouldn't (cause the regular remote needs to work when they make the conversion).

How do youget m-card for the 8300HDC box ??. Looks like it has a slot for it but you can not get to it. Any one know any thing??.Like how to use the slot ?? :confused:It should come with the M-Card. Most of the ones being sent out by SA are with the M-Card in place.

It should come with the M-Card. Most of the ones being sent out by SA are with the M-Card in place.Isn't the M-Card/slot in the back? Perhaps he's looking at the front slot?

Isn't the M-Card/slot in the back? Perhaps he's looking at the front slot?I think you are right. Just dealt with someone on our local site that thought that front slot (for Smart Cards) was for a CableCard.

I traded in my older 8300HD because of HDMI issues that were occuring. I received the new 8300HDC with navigator software. It does have a few nice new features like the percentage of disk full and what HD programs are occuring at the current time. Other than that it is slooooooowwwwwww. I have had it a week and now it will not record any program through a series recording. It will record a program if I specfically select the program to record. Has anyone seen this behaviour with the 8300hdc? So far I have not been impressed with this new navigator, I want my old passport back :-)

I traded in my older 8300HD because of HDMI issues that were occuring. I received the new 8300HDC with navigator software. It does have a few nice new features like the percentage of disk full and what HD programs are occuring at the current time. Other than that it is slooooooowwwwwww. I have had it a week and now it will not record any program through a series recording. It will record a program if I specfically select the program to record. Has anyone seen this behaviour with the 8300hdc? So far I have not been impressed with this new navigator, I want my old passport back :-)brboot: PLEASE go to your UserCP and add your location to your profile so we all can see where you are located. Lots of us want to see where Navigator is being rolled out - so including your location in the profile, will help us do that.

Thanks

Ok you got it. I live in Raleigh, NC by the way :)

Ok you got it. I live in Raleigh, NC by the way :)Thanks :)

I just received a reply from the head of public relations in our division:

We do offer the SA8300HDC DVR -- as you probably know, that's the new
box that includes built-in CableCard technology.

And, we're on tap to add the new Navigator program guide in the first
quarter of 2008, pending ongoing and successful tests and deployments in
other locations... it offers much better
browsing and functional capabilities!

Seems they are still "testing" the software on others so I would like to thank the guinea pigs out there and hope that by the time we see it here all will be fine!

It should come with the M-Card. Most of the ones being sent out by SA are with the M-Card in place.

You are all right. It comes with the M-card in place on back of the box. Is ita screw that holds it in place??. :confused:

If us SARA users who have had it for awhile remember.SARA used to be very slow(especially changeing channels)It froze had to be rebooted plenty.Had voice and picure out of phase.However over the years SARA has grown into a fast stable guide.It may not have all the passport and Tivo features but the darn thing works 99.9% of the time.Features were added that worked.We can only hope that NAVIGATOR follows this path and in a couple years(yes sob)we may have a fast stable feature rich guide.Keep your fingers crossed cause it's comeing. On sara 1.89.1 here in Greensboro NC

Let's face it. Programmers today either do not know how, or are provided no incentive to generate memory efficient code. So today's software does not work efficiently on yesterday's hardware. This applies to cable boxes as well as computers (I'm in the process of buying a new desktop because the drivers on a new printer that I purchased are so damn inefficient that it is now a real pain to make a print). Efficient machine code is a thing of the (distant) past. :eek:

I traded in my older 8300HD because of HDMI issues that were occuring. I received the new 8300HDC with navigator software. It does have a few nice new features like the percentage of disk full and what HD programs are occuring at the current time. Other than that it is slooooooowwwwwww. I have had it a week and now it will not record any program through a series recording. It will record a program if I specfically select the program to record. Has anyone seen this behaviour with the 8300hdc? So far I have not been impressed with this new navigator, I want my old passport back :-)

I can't believe they would roll that out in Raliegh without the ability to series record. Mine here in Charlotte works fine in that aspect.

Update: I'm still having issues with the navigator DVR functions: i can view a channel fine (channel 721, HDNET) and i have a series setup to record "Arrested Development". There was nothing else recording at the time, and it didn't record the show because "The channel is not available (2)". I have had other series work properly, HD (entourage) & non-HD (scrubs, flip this house, etc), but it doesn't seem to like arrested development.

And yes, it does show percentage of space used, which is nice.

I can't believe they would roll that out in Raliegh without the ability to series record. Mine here in Charlotte works fine in that aspect.

Well it worked for a week. No matter what I do, I can't get it to work anymore. And you call Time Warner and they give the canned response to reboot the box. Still no worky...guess it's time to trade this one in already.

Try deleting all your series and other scheduled recordings then power off the box, boot it back up and then add them back. I can't gaurantee anything but its worth a shot.

Try deleting all your series and other scheduled recordings then power off the box, boot it back up and then add them back. I can't gaurantee anything but its worth a shot.

I have had to reboot my SARA enabled box before to get my scheduled programs back. However, I feel this is a real hassle and the customer shouldn't have to jump through all these hoops just to get the thing to work as advertised. This is especially true when you are paying close to $150 a month for services from the cable company! I can't figure out why the vendors just don't contract out with Tivo and make a standardized DVR system. I bet most customers would pay a couple more bucks a month to have a fully functional guide. I can't imagine it being too difficult to produce an STB that was capable of this.

Yeah, i called time warner about it yesterday and they basically had me just power cycle the unit. If it still doesn't work (I'll find out in a half hour) then he says I'll need to have a tech come over and fix/replace the unit.

He also said the rollout of these new navigator boxes started only a week ago (for san diego).

Well it worked for a week. No matter what I do, I can't get it to work anymore. And you call Time Warner and they give the canned response to reboot the box. Still no worky...guess it's time to trade this one in already.

Have you tried unplugging the box for about 10 minutes and than plugging it back in, allowing the system to reboot. The 10 second time that TWC often gives you in their "phone scripts" is often not enough time to get bad data out, if bad data is the problem. What model box is this? Standard Digital? HD? DVR? or DVR HD? Try the above first. But leave it unplugged for 10 minutes.

Jack

I just received a reply from the head of public relations in our division:

We do offer the SA8300HDC DVR -- as you probably know, that's the new
box that includes built-in CableCard technology.

And, we're on tap to add the new Navigator program guide in the first
quarter of 2008, pending ongoing and successful tests and deployments in
other locations... it offers much better
browsing and functional capabilities!

Seems they are still "testing" the software on others so I would like to thank the guinea pigs out there and hope that by the time we see it here all will be fine!

Absolutely critical question... do you run SARA? I think SDV compatibility is critical, we "know" SARA has it and Passport does not. TWC was clear Navigator was going to Passport areas first, so assuming you now have SARA, you should be happy for a quarter one, 2008 rollout of Navigator.

I have had to reboot my SARA enabled box before to get my scheduled programs back. However, I feel this is a real hassle and the customer shouldn't have to jump through all these hoops just to get the thing to work as advertised. This is especially true when you are paying close to $150 a month for services from the cable company! I can't figure out why the vendors just don't contract out with Tivo and make a standardized DVR system. I bet most customers would pay a couple more bucks a month to have a fully functional guide. I can't imagine it being too difficult to produce an STB that was capable of this.

Long ago I felt that TiVos best move was to license their software to the cable guys. I'm sure discussions have occurred and I can only speculate that they wanted more money than the cable guys were willing to give up.

Let's face it. Programmers today either do not know how, or are provided no incentive to generate memory efficient code. So today's software does not work efficiently on yesterday's hardware. This applies to cable boxes as well as computers (I'm in the process of buying a new desktop because the drivers on a new printer that I purchased are so damn inefficient that it is now a real pain to make a print). Efficient machine code is a thing of the (distant) past. :eek:

Oh boy is that the truth! It's partly laziness due to the fact that memory is just so damn cheap now-a-days.

Another Vista sale m$ can crow about, right?

Long ago I felt that TiVos best move was to license their software to the cable guys. I'm sure discussions have occurred and I can only speculate that they wanted more money than the cable guys were willing to give up.

Not all the cable guys! Comcast is launching OCAP TIVO soon:
http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/06/29/comcast-certifes-tivos-ocap-software/

Since they ported it to OCAP at least there is a chance we will get it someday.

xnappo

I just currently go the 8300HD-DVR box with my digital cable, and periodically my picture freezes and pixelates. It only does it on HD channels and premium channels like showtime. I have a tech coming out tonight to check it out, but I had one come out last week to check signal strength and he amped my signal even though he said it checked plenty strong enough. I know of one other person in the area who is having the exact same problem. Does anyone here know if this would be a box problem or what other things could cause this? It will do it for a short time and then stop, and it just varies from when it will do it. I can watch for 2 hours and see nothing, and then all of a sudden it starts and will last a few minutes. Desperately looking for some answers. I am located in Shelby, NC. Thanks.

Let's face it. Programmers today either do not know how, or are provided no incentive to generate memory efficient code. So today's software does not work efficiently on yesterday's hardware. This applies to cable boxes as well as computers (I'm in the process of buying a new desktop because the drivers on a new printer that I purchased are so damn inefficient that it is now a real pain to make a print). Efficient machine code is a thing of the (distant) past. :eek:

I think the navigator software is java based (it shows the java logo upon bootup, but that could be misleading) - java programs are much harder to write efficiently than native applications. Don't get me wrong, writing fast java applications is possible, it's just that the time needed to make a java application efficient is usually more time than a company wants to spend on a project (for budget reasons). Remember: Good, Fast, Cheap (Pick any two). The suits sure like fast & cheap.

I just currently go the 8300HD-DVR box with my digital cable, and periodically my picture freezes and pixelates. It only does it on HD channels and premium channels like showtime. I have a tech coming out tonight to check it out, but I had one come out last week to check signal strength and he amped my signal even though he said it checked plenty strong enough. I know of one other person in the area who is having the exact same problem. Does anyone here know if this would be a box problem or what other things could cause this? It will do it for a short time and then stop, and it just varies from when it will do it. I can watch for 2 hours and see nothing, and then all of a sudden it starts and will last a few minutes. Desperately looking for some answers. I am located in Shelby, NC. Thanks.

I'm in Charlotte and that happens to me occasionally too. I usually just reboot and it fixes it for a while, but it keeps happening but not enough for me to call cust service.

Have you tried unplugging the box for about 10 minutes and than plugging it back in, allowing the system to reboot. The 10 second time that TWC often gives you in their "phone scripts" is often not enough time to get bad data out, if bad data is the problem. What model box is this? Standard Digital? HD? DVR? or DVR HD? Try the above first. But leave it unplugged for 10 minutes.

Jack


That was a great idea, so I gave it a whirl. The darn thing still will not record any series at all whether I set repeats or new shows only. I think I will swap out the box tommorrow. My other 8300HD never did this. It used the passport software, while this navigator software isn't starting out well for me :rolleyes:

Long ago I felt that TiVos best move was to license their software to the cable guys. I'm sure discussions have occurred and I can only speculate that they wanted more money than the cable guys were willing to give up.BINGO! This has been HEATEDLY discussed many times over the years.

The only reason SARA and others have some of the options they do is that they've licensed SOME stuff from Tivo. However, with Tvio generating their S3/S3Lite and porting to the Moto/SA units, there is no little chance that Tivo will lower their licensing fees, so cable units will have to look to newer 3rd party applications or design their own as TWC is doing.

Also, with the way Tivo operates, there is little incentive for cable to embrace them too much and lose the DVR revenue to them. I've heard that cable gets about $1/sub for the ported software and Tivo gets the rest. If you were a cableco which wouyld you push, your's for full profit or theirs for a buck? :)

Not all the cable guys! Comcast is launching OCAP TIVO soon:
http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/06/29/comcast-certifes-tivos-ocap-software/

Since they ported it to OCAP at least there is a chance we will get it someday.

xnappoAnd here I thought Tivo was saying cable was rolling out OCAP just to foil them. :) If this is true, then I'm not sure why all the effort on the Tivo port that still isn't available. I sure hope they haven't mixed up the versions or maybe the OCAP version is what they were working on all along (which would make sense to me). If Tivo hits the market with an OCAP-compatible unit, I wonder if that would mean it will work with SDV?

I traded in my older 8300HD because of HDMI issues that were occuring. I received the new 8300HDC with navigator software. It does have a few nice new features like the percentage of disk full and what HD programs are occuring at the current time. Other than that it is slooooooowwwwwww. I have had it a week and now it will not record any program through a series recording. It will record a program if I specfically select the program to record. Has anyone seen this behaviour with the 8300hdc? So far I have not been impressed with this new navigator, I want my old passport back :-)

I just got my 8300HDC (Raleigh, NC) and thought is was not all that bad, but now I am having the same problem as you are above. No series recording will work. I am having the additional problem of not being able to set a series pass using search, I can only set one from the guide by finding the program and doing it there. Once the series record is set, it shows no upcoming programs to be recorded, yet I can find them in the guide.

If I search for dateline (or anything for that matter) in the search, it does not show up. It looks like ONLY on demand programs are in my search. Someone else in Raleigh use the search (hit the b button twice) and see if anything shows up on the left side that is not On Demand programming.

This is unreal, how can they release this thing with this kind of bug? I would have to find each program I want to record in the guide manually....

This is unreal, how can they release this thing with this kind of bug? I would have to find each program I want to record in the guide manually....

I guess they figure since Microsoft did it, they will too!

I just got my 8300HDC (Raleigh, NC) and thought is was not all that bad, but now I am having the same problem as you are above. No series recording will work. I am having the additional problem of not being able to set a series pass using search, I can only set one from the guide by finding the program and doing it there. Once the series record is set, it shows no upcoming programs to be recorded, yet I can find them in the guide.

If I search for dateline (or anything for that matter) in the search, it does not show up. It looks like ONLY on demand programs are in my search. Someone else in Raleigh use the search (hit the b button twice) and see if anything shows up on the left side that is not On Demand programming.

This is unreal, how can they release this thing with this kind of bug? I would have to find each program I want to record in the guide manually....

Just got off the phone with Time Warner, and they are unaware of the problem. Guy was nice and helpful and understood what the problem was when I explained it. They are sending someone out Monday (best they could do with my schedule).

Just to recap what he and I discussed, there seems to be a guide problem, the guide is not recognizing any guide data except the On Demand channels. This seems to be what is killing the series recordings.

Just got off the phone with Time Warner, and they are unaware of the problem. Guy was nice and helpful and understood what the problem was when I explained it. They are sending someone out Monday (best they could do with my schedule).

Just to recap what he and I discussed, there seems to be a guide problem, the guide is not recognizing any guide data except the On Demand channels. This seems to be what is killing the series recordings.


Let us know the outcome. Sounds like you got lucky and got someone good on the phone. It will be interesting to see if the person that comes out does something other than swapping out your box which sounds like it will happen again.
I wonder why you can select a program in the guide and manually select to record it and that works?

Just got off the phone with Time Warner, and they are unaware of the problem. Guy was nice and helpful and understood what the problem was when I explained it. They are sending someone out Monday (best they could do with my schedule).

Just to recap what he and I discussed, there seems to be a guide problem, the guide is not recognizing any guide data except the On Demand channels. This seems to be what is killing the series recordings.

I also only see on demand programming in the guide when I try and do a search.

On Passport, rewind/fast forward of live TV doesn't work when the DVR is using an add-on eSATA drive. Passport always records to the drive with the most available space, so when you add a 500GB eSATA drive, you are almost assured it will be used solely. Does anyone know if this rewind/fast forward issue is fixed in Navigator?

On Passport, rewind/fast forward of live TV doesn't work when the DVR is using an add-on eSATA drive. Passport always records to the drive with the most available space, so when you add a 500GB eSATA drive, you are almost assured it will be used solely. Does anyone know if this rewind/fast forward issue is fixed in Navigator?


Yeah that seems to work now. I can hit pause and rewind with the esata drive. However I am now having a problem where it stutters when playing from the esata drive. Sigh :confused:

Yeah that seems to work now. I can hit pause and rewind with the esata drive. However I am now having a problem where it stutters when playing from the esata drive. Sigh :confused:

What drive/case do you have? Is it time for a Navigator database (see my sig)??

xnappo

I just currently go the 8300HD-DVR box with my digital cable, and periodically my picture freezes and pixelates. It only does it on HD channels and premium channels like showtime. I have a tech coming out tonight to check it out, but I had one come out last week to check signal strength and he amped my signal even though he said it checked plenty strong enough. I know of one other person in the area who is having the exact same problem. Does anyone here know if this would be a box problem or what other things could cause this? It will do it for a short time and then stop, and it just varies from when it will do it. I can watch for 2 hours and see nothing, and then all of a sudden it starts and will last a few minutes. Desperately looking for some answers. I am located in Shelby, NC. Thanks.

I've followed this issue for a while now... the evidence points me almost never to the cable box or whether you have an external HD. IMO, it seems to be a symptom of bandwidth starving. The incidence of this kind of stuff went way up when the last new HD channels we got in my market (6/14 to be exact). I had the occasional glitch, but never with such frequency that I got annoyed. Last night I watched a concert that I DVRed around 4 AM, a time when bandwidth demand HAD to be the lowest. Over a dozen major noticeable glitches in 60 minutes.

Yes, there COULD be issues in the wiring, in the signal strength, in the S/N ratio contributing to it. What I'm pretty sure of is none of those is an issue for me. Which leads me to the starved bandwidth theory.

Yes, there COULD be issues in the wiring, in the signal strength, in the S/N ratio contributing to it. What I'm pretty sure of is none of those is an issue for me. Which leads me to the starved bandwidth theory.

I never see this issue now that my S/N is good. Why not go in the diags when you are seeing glitches and be absolutely sure rather than pretty sure?

xnappo

And here I thought Tivo was saying cable was rolling out OCAP just to foil them. :) If this is true, then I'm not sure why all the effort on the Tivo port that still isn't available. I sure hope they haven't mixed up the versions or maybe the OCAP version is what they were working on all along (which would make sense to me). If Tivo hits the market with an OCAP-compatible unit, I wonder if that would mean it will work with SDV?

I think SDV is FAR, FAR more important to all of us than OCAP. My overall service is pretty horrible (glitching) right after the last HD channel got added. Not to mention that in one of the largest media capitals in the country, we get the worst HD lineup... right now it's 15 channels and it should be more like 12 to deliver a far better overall experience (we were 12 4-5 months ago and had very few of those glitches that we see way too frequently now).

So I just can't even consider TiVo to be in the game until it tells me about SDV.

I never see this issue now that my S/N is good. Why not go in the diags when you are seeing glitches and be absolutely sure rather than pretty sure?

xnappo

Good point, but I have fairly frequently looked at the S/N, and have never seen it get below 32. It usually runs around 32-33, just checked it, 33 and 36 (one for each tuner). Of course, checking it when watching a recorded program...

An additional bit of "evidence" I didn't mention is that the exact same thing is happening to a good buddy who has similar service, but gets his stuff from a different head end (same city, same Manhattan borough). After a year of my convincing, he went HD right as the last HD channel got added. He didn't watch that much before, but was very annoyed with the glitching. He's had the techs out at least twice, they find fine signal strength and S/N within specs.

Same issue, different head ends sure does lead to a more systematic issue, don't you think?

Last night I watched a concert that I DVRed around 4 AM, a time when bandwidth demand HAD to be the lowest. Over a dozen major noticeable glitches in 60 minutes..
How does this example reinforce your theory of bandwidth starving?

Does anyone know of any SARA area that have started receiveing Navigator yet? SARA 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

Does anyone know of any SARA area that have started receiveing Navigator yet? SARA 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NCI don't think so. Several of the Navigator sitings have been in Passport areas when the SA8300HDC (CableCard version) is rolled out. SARA areas have been getting 1.90.xx.xx software with the HDCs.

But we are all watching with trepidation. :D

I just got my 2nd notice for Navigator in the mail...

1st one i got many months ago said by July 1st, now this new updated one says in the next 6 months!

:rofl:

At least they are nice enough to not let us suffer in Kansas :) I still have passport for now...

What drive/case do you have? Is it time for a Navigator database (see my sig)??

xnappo

It's a azio ENC311SU41 and the drive is a 300 gig maxtor diamondmax

I think SDV is FAR, FAR more important to all of us than OCAP. My overall service is pretty horrible (glitching) right after the last HD channel got added. Not to mention that in one of the largest media capitals in the country, we get the worst HD lineup... right now it's 15 channels and it should be more like 12 to deliver a far better overall experience (we were 12 4-5 months ago and had very few of those glitches that we see way too frequently now).

So I just can't even consider TiVo to be in the game until it tells me about SDV.I don't disagree, at least for the relatively short term, but OCAP should mean that the DVR will go mainstream and become available as just another piece of A/V equipment. This will stablize things and make it better for everyone.

I know you think SDV will solve your PQ issues, and maybe it will if they are rate shaping or something, but I suspect that bandwidth has little, if anything, to do with it, unless they stuffed 3 channels into the space of the normal 2 + subs. Even then, that kind of thing should only affect the channels involved and not the whole HD spectrum. One would have to check the bitrate for all 15 channels to see what the issues might be and then it is probably the channel itself, not the cableco causing problems.

We currently get 21 HD channels and several SD sub-channels, but they are ALL passed at whatever bandwidth is provided to the cableco. Our cableco does nothing but QAM modulate them for broadcast. If they get 18Mbps, they pass 18Mbps. If they get 15Mbps, they pass 15Mbps. I could be wrong, but I think you'll find the same thing. One would have to compare OTA bitrate to cable bitrate to verify all this. Makes for an interesting discussion either way.

Efficient machine code is a thing of the (distant) past

I resent that - I'm a software developer and I still write very efficient code.

Anyone have any info on the SARA 1.90 software.Is there any difference from 1,89.Any info would be appreciated.

I also only see on demand programming in the guide when I try and do a search.

THIS IS FIXED!! I just checked my guide and can schedule series recordings and such. When I find programs, all are there now, not just on demand. Let me know if it is fixed for you also.

THIS IS FIXED!! I just checked my guide and can schedule series recordings and such. When I find programs, all are there now, not just on demand. Let me know if it is fixed for you also.

YES!!!! Whooo hoooo. They must have rolled an update last night!

I don't think so. Several of the Navigator sitings have been in Passport areas when the SA8300HDC (CableCard version) is rolled out. SARA areas have been getting 1.90.xx.xx software with the HDCs.

But we are all watching with trepidation. :D

Hasn't TWC already said Navigator will go to Passport areas first? SDV has to be first and foremost in their minds, and SARA already does SDV but the current Passport does not.

Means that those who have passport now will get to alpha test Navigator and go through all the pains before the SARA guys get it. Then again, a few well respected folks around here who have actually lived with both systems do seem to prefer the additional functionality Passport has, so in the end, WTF.

I don't disagree, at least for the relatively short term, but OCAP should mean that the DVR will go mainstream and become available as just another piece of A/V equipment. This will stablize things and make it better for everyone.

I know you think SDV will solve your PQ issues, and maybe it will if they are rate shaping or something, but I suspect that bandwidth has little, if anything, to do with it, unless they stuffed 3 channels into the space of the normal 2 + subs. Even then, that kind of thing should only affect the channels involved and not the whole HD spectrum. One would have to check the bitrate for all 15 channels to see what the issues might be and then it is probably the channel itself, not the cableco causing problems.

We currently get 21 HD channels and several SD sub-channels, but they are ALL passed at whatever bandwidth is provided to the cableco. Our cableco does nothing but QAM modulate them for broadcast. If they get 18Mbps, they pass 18Mbps. If they get 15Mbps, they pass 15Mbps. I could be wrong, but I think you'll find the same thing. One would have to compare OTA bitrate to cable bitrate to verify all this. Makes for an interesting discussion either way.

Interesting... the funny thing is that from all the initial information about OCAP I read, it seemed to be a set of frameworks for additional functionality, as in new stuff they can sell to us. Your point that it CAN be used to liberate us to a degree does sound good long term, but as of now, TWC is toast as soon as I can get FIOS TV.

As you know, I'm making tentative conclusions based on observations... not saying anything is 100% confirmed. Picture and sound breakups went WAY up just as ESPN2 HD was added (and observed from 2 head ends in NYC). Not so much when MyNineHD went in... but that was essentially a replacement for InHD2, it brought us to the number of HD channels we had in December. I'd put money that of they dropped ONE frakking analog channels, breakups would go way down (yes I know we will always have issues with it, I'm only talking about frequency, over a dozen in an hour is just unacceptable).

As you know, I'm making tentative conclusions based on observations... not saying anything is 100% confirmed. Picture and sound breakups went WAY up just as ESPN2 HD was added (and observed from 2 head ends in NYC). Not so much when MyNineHD went in... but that was essentially a replacement for InHD2, it brought us to the number of HD channels we had in December. I'd put money that of they dropped ONE frakking analog channels, breakups would go way down (yes I know we will always have issues with it, I'm only talking about frequency, over a dozen in an hour is just unacceptable).

One thing they may be doing is using high ingress channels. These are QAM carriers that correspond to broadcast UHF frequencies in your area. Ideally it would be good if they could stay away from these - but with limited bandwidth from having all the analog channels they are forced into using them sometimes(especially without SDV).

It is interesting to correlate the QAM frequencies of channels you have breaking up to your local broadcast stations - use this link to do so:
http://www.csgnetwork.com/tvfreqtable.html

xnappo

Well SARA does do SDV i hear but that is about all it does better than PASSPORT.

Well SARA does do SDV i hear but that is about all it does better than PASSPORT.Well there are a few others that come to mind (undoubtedly there are others too):
No "trick play buffer" issue with external drive
Ability to make anamorphic DVDs
More flexibility in set-up of output

Like anything else, "better" often depends on where you place the emphasis. In general, SARA tends to be more hardware oriented (which makes sense) and Passport tends to be more user (interface) oriented.

BTW: I understand that Passport now does SDV - it's just that TW didn't want to pay for it!

Well there are a few others that come to mind (undoubtedly there are others too):
No "trick play buffer" issue with external drive
Ability to make anamorphic DVDs
More flexibility in set-up of output

Like anything else, "better" often depends on where you place the emphasis. In general, SARA tends to be more hardware oriented (which makes sense) and Passport tends to be more user (interface) oriented.

BTW: I understand that Passport now does SDV - it's just that TW didn't want to pay for it!

I think SARA also has over Passport:
- Caller ID w/ cable phone service
- Faster GUI (fast but ugly)
- More recording options (in latest versions)
- Fuel gauge

I could be wrong, sorry in advance if I am.

xnappo

I surrender guys your right about SARA.I was haveing a bad day.Just wish SARA had a nicer lookig GUI and a decent search engine (being kind here) and i would stop griping.Sara is a very effient ipg that works 99.9% of the time..

I agree that SARA is a good (mostly functional) guide. The only things that really need to be addressed are the awful GUI, the search feature (should be like Dish where you can type in a search string and it looks through all 7 days), and the guide needs to be customizable (Like Dish again - have an All Sub feature or a way to add/delete channels so I don't have to scroll through hundreds of channels with loads of duplicates). SARA would be perfectly acceptable with just a few minor tweaks IMHO.

Even though I sort of started this SARAvs Passport thing: Why don't we get back to Navigator (or at least Passport vs Navigator). :o

Even though I sort of started this SARAvs Passport thing: Why don't we get back to Navigator (or at least Passport vs Navigator). :oYeah, these have all been discussed to death already and it really doesn't make any difference since we don't have the option for one over another, at least not until OCAP versions of everything are available. Eventually you'll buy an STB at a retail outlet and then subscribe to your interface of choice. Then discussions about the differences will be useful. :)

One thing they may be doing is using high ingress channels. These are QAM carriers that correspond to broadcast UHF frequencies in your area. Ideally it would be good if they could stay away from these - but with limited bandwidth from having all the analog channels they are forced into using them sometimes(especially without SDV).

It is interesting to correlate the QAM frequencies of channels you have breaking up to your local broadcast stations - use this link to do so:
http://www.csgnetwork.com/tvfreqtable.html

xnappo

I have been trying to ascertain any kind of pattern here... but it's not easy. I see it a LOT on HDNet, then again, I watch that channel a lot. But I do see it on SD channels as well.

But thanks for the link, I may try and suss it out some more. Still, I can't help but point to them being "oversaturated" in bandwidth... perhaps a tad of rate shaping may get a cleaner reception?

I have been trying to ascertain any kind of pattern here... but it's not easy. I see it a LOT on HDNet, then again, I watch that channel a lot. But I do see it on SD channels as well.

But thanks for the link, I may try and suss it out some more. Still, I can't help but point to them being "oversaturated" in bandwidth... perhaps a tad of rate shaping may get a cleaner reception?I don't know about Passport, but I assume it's diagnostics display shows the frequency of all channels. With SARA, I've scanned through all HD channels and copied down their frequencies to see if they are assigning more than 2 HD channels to a given frequency. You also have to include the sub-channels to get an accurate picture of frequency use, but I still don't believe that is the problem unless a local channel with 1 or more sub-channels is sharing a frequency with one of those prone to breakups. I have very few video glitches, I can go days without seeing any, live or recorded. I have a single splitter on my main set and it's signal strength is -5 with a S/N of 35. I'd be curious to know what your numbers are.

kc,

Did you have similar issues running Passport (or SARA) on those units or didn't you have them then? Memory usage-wise, I wouldn't think Navigator would really be that much different from SARA or Passport, do you?

I don't think you will not be able to do anything less, you will just do it slower. I can only assume the lower memory boxes will have to load things like the guide and other features from head-end server everything you access them. Hence slow guide load and a lot of the NA issues that Navigator experienced on all boxes in the beginning.

Most Pioneer and older SA boxes only have 4 meg of memory. 8300HD DVR has 96 meg and OCAP boxes have 128 meg. I have a SA2100 that has 8 meg and a SA3250 that has 16 meg. I can tell you that the SA3250 handles Navigator much better than the SA2100. I have never gotten NA when I pull up the Guide on the SA3250 and I can go further out into the future without getting "Loading Data". The SA2100 has NA in the guide almost every other time I access it. I can only image how bad that would be with only 4 meg of memory.

I would compare this the running Windows XP on a low memory computer (512M or less) to one that has 2G. It is about what an be cached in memory and what has to be swapped in and out.

Well the good news is,

We plan to upgrade to have Digital Phone and Road Runner added to our cable service this fall. They will probably give us a different more modern box for the Caller ID on TV feature, so hopefully the memory issues won't be a problem.

The only downside is we will be forced into Navigator at that time. Well, actually, I am going on all of the past complaints from what we have heard and read about in Lincoln Nebraska. Has Navigator gotten better, especially with the newer boxes and DVR's?

Jack

I've had the box for about a month (got an HDTV and needed a box). I got it after July 1, which according to the NYC rep was the date for when all new boxes were going to be the Navigator kind.

Anyway, I have two main bugs: (1) The DVR will record about 15 minutes of a program and then pause and skip 30 minutes of recording. I only notice this when watching it after it's been recorded -- I'm not sure what would happen if I was watching/recording live.
(2) The DVR will randomly not record a scheduled program and the error message in the recording log says something to the effect of "unresolvable recording conflict (6)." Then nothing will record until I reset the box. This has happened two to three times in the last month. Very annoying.

I am on SARA 1.89 here in Greensboro NC.SARA has very extensive recording options.Will anyone let me know how NAVIGATOR recording options compare to PASSPORT.Plus does NAVIGATOR have more or less options than PASSPORT.

They seriously need to make third party units available that offer two way communications! If Tivo made a box that worked with all the Time Warner features I get now, I'd buy two! This proprietary BS has got to go! If people had options, you can bet Time Warner would figure out a way (and quick) to offer a sleek GUI that was fully functional!

This proprietary BS has got to go!And isn't that the goal of OCAP and DCAS? Anything OCAP compliant should work on any OCAP-compliant system/hardware. DCAS makes the security downloadable. All this is supposed to open the door for muliple vendors to offer multiple products. However, even after OCAP and DCAS are implemented, I don't know of anything that makes the cableco allow anything that they don't control. I'm not sure that they are going through the growing pains just to keep things the way they currently are, but one never knows until we get there. It would be nice if we had the option to purchase a DVR from the company of our choice and then choose any IPG software that is available without the cableco ever needing to know or even caring.

And isn't that the goal of OCAP and DCAS? Anything OCAP compliant should work on any OCAP-compliant system/hardware. DCAS makes the security downloadable. All this is supposed to open the door for muliple vendors to offer multiple products. However, even after OCAP and DCAS are implemented, I don't know of anything that makes the cableco allow anything that they don't control. I'm not sure that they are going through the growing pains just to keep things the way they currently are, but one never knows until we get there. It would be nice if we had the option to purchase a DVR from the company of our choice and then choose any IPG software that is available without the cableco ever needing to know or even caring.

That is exactly my point! I think cable co's are scared to death by the notion of allowing consumers to buy and use their own equipment, so they want to keep things like VOD and PPV proprietary. Where I'm located, the box "rentals" are a cash cow at $8 per outlet.

That is exactly my point! I think cable co's are scared to death by the notion of allowing consumers to buy and use their own equipment, so they want to keep things like VOD and PPV proprietary. Where I'm located, the box "rentals" are a cash cow at $8 per outlet.Sorry, but I just don't agree with that notion. My DVR is just now beginning to pay off for Cox (based on what wholesale prices I've seen anyway), so they may now actually be making money on it, but that assumes there are no other costs beyond purchasing. Unfortunately, inventory management has it's own costs, so I suspect Cox won't start making any real money off my 8300HD until next year. Even then, the amount to be made is pretty darned small in the big scheme and mine has been one of the good ones.

To be sure, they are making money off of legacy equipment, but even that has inventory costs. AFAIK, cable and sat make the bulk of their profits from programming and that is where the really big $$$ are. I'm not privy to just why sat has switched to a semi-lease model, but I doubt it was because leasing is a cash cow. I think they've heard from subs who are tired of having to upgrade hardware so often or replace units out of warranty. The profits simply pay for all that and the inventory management.

Of course, all this is just my opinion, and without being privy to corporate reports, I know of no way to verfiy things one way or the other. :)

Oh, I almost forgot, I'm not sure just what you mean by proprietary. AFAIK, Tivo chose NOT to include the hardware needed to do VOD, PPV, and SDV, partly to get the S3 out on schedule. From what I've read, they are working on a solution, but there is very little info on just what that might be.

Let me clarify one thing I should have mentioned earlier. Many cable companies are looking at phasing out analog and thus would force subs to put an STB on each outlet. Most homes have at least two and many have four. In my case, I have eight. If TWC here push out analog and requires an STB for each set, that instantly jumps my bill up by over $50 and thus would have me cancelling my service and looking elsewhere. I'm saying that $8 rentals are, in my opinion, excessive.

OTOH, I feel where cable companies are really making up for any loses is their Internet service. Broadband is commonplace now, yet the average price for cable Internet service is around $40 when it should be around $25.

I guess either way, I personally would still rather have an option of using my own third party STB with reliable and functional software. This could have been solved easily by licensing the Tivo software as I feel most consumers would pay more for it than what they pay for the in house versions cable is using.

I'm saying that $8 rentals are, in my opinion, excessive.


Mine are $5, but I agree. Same price rental for channel changing box and DVR (DVR service not counted). The plain box should be only a dollar or two when compared.

Dan

Oh, and the irritating extra $2.50 for 2nd+ TVs for digital service access on them. This has kept me a hold out on the 2nd/3rd TV for digital service.

Let me clarify one thing I should have mentioned earlier. Many cable companies are looking at phasing out analog and thus would force subs to put an STB on each outlet. Most homes have at least two and many have four. In my case, I have eight. If TWC here push out analog and requires an STB for each set, that instantly jumps my bill up by over $50 and thus would have me cancelling my service and looking elsewhere. I'm saying that $8 rentals are, in my opinion, excessive. I think you are making an incorrect assumption when discussing what may happen when and if analogs go away. You automatically assume they will begin charging $8 per outlet because that is the way it's designed today of you want digital in mulitple rooms. However, I don't think anything has been decided at all on how to handle turning off analogs. Add to that the fact that the DTV conversion includes a credit voucher, $40 - 2 per household, to convert digital to analog for legacy TVs. Howeve, exactly how that will work is not firm yet. Also, all new TVs have to be digital cable-ready which means they would get basic/expanded digital service without a box.

OTOH, I feel where cable companies are really making up for any loses is their Internet service. Broadband is commonplace now, yet the average price for cable Internet service is around $40 when it should be around $25. Can't disagree there, but many cableco's have multiple plans and most pricing I have seen is very close to DSL, so I'm not sure why you single out cable. Supply and demand is the order of the day, the market sets the price and we all seem willing to pay.

[qouote]I guess either way, I personally would still rather have an option of using my own third party STB with reliable and functional software. This could have been solved easily by licensing the Tivo software as I feel most consumers would pay more for it than what they pay for the in house versions cable is using.[/QUOTE]That remains to be seen, but the Comcast/Tivo thread shows that it's simply not that easy. Tivo has spent more than a year now porting their software to the Moto boxes and it still hasn't been released. To think that simply licensing Tivo would have solved all this is naive IMHO. This has been discussed before in other threads, but Tivo and cable simply couldn't come to an agreement until recently. Tivo is still in financial straights and that is probably the only reason they've wooed cable. It is not known if both sides finally gave a little or if Tivo finally gave a lot to get the ports on the way.

You can by an S3 for less than $500 now and an S3Lite for less than $300. Unfortunately, it appears that the S3 was a bust because of the initial high price and it remains to be seen how many will flock to the cheaper Lite version. Most cable subs are fine with what they have. Perhaps this Christmas will provide some idea of how all this will play out. I've yet to see a TV ad extolling the virtures of the S3 or S3Lite, so what does that tell you? It tells me interest is deemed too limited to spend money on advertising, at least for now.

I'm not bashing Cable (heck, I'm a sub) so much as I'm saying that I see nickel and diming on all fronts (cable,sat, and phone). I have no option for broadband other than cable so I pretty have to pay what they want. It's not too bad under my Triple Play, but it could be cheaper. I haven't seen anyone offering broadband around here for under $34 a month (Verizon DSL @768down) The Tivo idea is wishful thinking, but it would be nice to have options.

Some areas are already yanking the analog tier down to 23 channels and moving everything into the digital tier. I believe cable may use a "blame the FCC" tactic to start doing this. Doesn't mean it will happen in my market, but it is happening!

Mine are $5, but I agree. Same price rental for channel changing box and DVR (DVR service not counted). The plain box should be only a dollar or two when compared.I don't know how you manage your money, but at one time the wholesale price of an SA8300HD DVR was around $400. At $5/mo, it would take 80 months for them to see any profit at all. Even at the $15 I pay, it would take over 2 years. And that doesn't count inventory management, replacements, etc. In the 3.5 years I've had HD service, I've could have gone through 4 different HD models; 3100, 3250, 8000HD, and 8300HD. I skipped the 3100 and 8000HD, but the point is they really haven't made any money off me yet, at least not for HD hardware. :)

I don't know how you manage your money, but at one time the wholesale price of an SA8300HD DVR was around $400. At $5/mo, it would take 80 months for them to see any profit at all. Even at the $15 I pay, it would take over 2 years. And that doesn't count inventory management, replacements, etc. In the 3.5 years I've had HD service, I've could have gone through 4 different HD models; 3100, 3250, 8000HD, and 8300HD. I skipped the 3100 and 8000HD, but the point is they really haven't made any money off me yet, at least not for HD hardware. :)

$400 retail maybe. I'd venture to say major cable companies get them for half that. Heck, here the customers replacement cost for an 8300 is around $250. Time Warner is getting these things at bulk rates, but who knows without actually seeing any records. Either way, they are NOT losing money over their spectrum of services.

I think you are making an incorrect assumption when discussing what may happen when and if analogs go away. You automatically assume they will begin charging $8 per outlet because that is the way it's designed today of you want digital in mulitple rooms. However, I don't think anything has been decided at all on how to handle turning off analogs. Add to that the fact that the DTV conversion includes a credit voucher, $40 - 2 per household, to convert digital to analog for legacy TVs. Howeve, exactly how that will work is not firm yet. Also, all new TVs have to be digital cable-ready which means they would get basic/expanded digital service without a box.Dave: I guess that I should take issue with a couple of points you made:

1) Cost of cable supplied converter: As I recall, Comcast (in Chicago) is providing the first converter free and additional ones are $2-$3/month. These are a lot lower end boxes than the $8 ones that we are used to.

2) Though I haven't heard much lately, there have been announcements of a TerraPix (http://www.broadlogic.com/11062006press.htm) box that does bulk D>A conversion at the entrance to the house.

3) The converter box is for OTA only (no cable). I saw a link to the specs for this (D2A) box a couple of weeks ago, but can't find it now (I know that I should have bookmarked it). However one good overview is this (http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0082/t.4382.html) article

4) I don't believe that there is any mandate that digital sets have QAM tuners. I've seen several lower cost DTV SD sets without a QAM tuner. The only mandate from the FCC has been for ATSC.

I have the new Navigator software in Charlotte, NC on the 8300HDC box. I've noticed what I consider to be a major flaw that no one else in the forums has mentioned:

The DVR no longer buffers programming (a) when the box is turned off. (b) while watching a DVR recording. (c) on the tuner not currently being viewed.

It used to be, with Passport, that when you turned the box on it would have been buffering whatever channel it was tuned to when the box was turned off so you could back up TV for up to an hour prior to when the box was turned on. NO LONGER :(

It also used to be the case on Passport that if you were watching a particular channel and then started to wtch a DVR recording, once you stopped watching the DVR recording you could return to whatever you were previously watching and rewind back up to an hour. NO LONGER:(

Finally, it used to be the case, with Passport, that you could switch between tuners (using the 'Swap' button on the remote) and have the abikity to pause/rewind each of the two channels that the dual tuners were receiving. NO LONGER:(

Quite simply, the buffering is totally F**CKED UP :(

I had a tech out yesterday dealing with a signal issue and he said an upgrade was due to be pushed out sometime in the next month. He couldn't say (had no clue) what this upgrade would include but I;m hoping it adds the Caller ID on TV feature, improvements to buffering and the 15 minute skip forward/back. Plus I'm hopefully that TWC will eventually add decent (keyword) search functionality to Navigator but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

1) Cost of cable supplied converter: As I recall, Comcast (in Chicago) is providing the first converter free and additional ones are $2-$3/month. These are a lot lower end boxes than the $8 ones that we are used to.I was simply using the posters price. My take is that the whole pricing model will change once we get to that point and we are quite far from it yet.

3) The converter box is for OTA only (no cable).You are correct, my bad.

4) I don't believe that there is any mandate that digital sets have QAM tuners. I've seen several lower cost DTV SD sets without a QAM tuner. The only mandate from the FCC has been for ATSC.I could have sworn I've read "digital cable-ready" so the basic process of simply hooking up a cable to get service without a box would still apply, just like it does with cable-ready sets today. If I'm wrong, again my bad. Fortunately, I really don't care one way or the other. Sat requires a box for each outlet, I see no problem with cable doing the same thing. The only question is how they price things. I just get PO'd because so many people want full HD DVRs in every room, but no one wants to pay for them. :) When I get around to upgrading my bedroom TVs to digital, I fully expect to upgrade to digital boxes (or DVRs) and to pay for them. Why would I expect anything less????

BTW. As always, thanks for keeping things straight. Sometimes I get to typing so fast and furious, I let my thoughts drift and get confused. :)

Ugh, I'm completely sick of my new Navigator box. Has anyone had any luck getting their old Passport boxes back? Navigator randomly skips my scheduled recordings, has useless search (shows almost no results), and is slow as molasses.

Holocaust, what is you location? You may want to add it to your info. It helps people track where Navigator is being deployed.

I have the new Navigator software in Charlotte, NC on the 8300HDC box. I've noticed what I consider to be a major flaw that no one else in the forums has mentioned:

The DVR no longer buffers programming (a) when the box is turned off. (b) while watching a DVR recording. (c) on the tuner not currently being viewed.

It used to be, with Passport, that when you turned the box on it would have been buffering whatever channel it was tuned to when the box was turned off so you could back up TV for up to an hour prior to when the box was turned on. NO LONGER :(

It also used to be the case on Passport that if you were watching a particular channel and then started to wtch a DVR recording, once you stopped watching the DVR recording you could return to whatever you were previously watching and rewind back up to an hour. NO LONGER:(

Finally, it used to be the case, with Passport, that you could switch between tuners (using the 'Swap' button on the remote) and have the abikity to pause/rewind each of the two channels that the dual tuners were receiving. NO LONGER:(

Quite simply, the buffering is totally F**CKED UP :(

I had a tech out yesterday dealing with a signal issue and he said an upgrade was due to be pushed out sometime in the next month. He couldn't say (had no clue) what this upgrade would include but I;m hoping it adds the Caller ID on TV feature, improvements to buffering and the 15 minute skip forward/back. Plus I'm hopefully that TWC will eventually add decent (keyword) search functionality to Navigator but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

Nice to see that TWC cares enough about its customers to have worked all the bugs out of Navigator before starting the national rollout. Just what we all expected. :rolleyes:

Looks like they learned nothing, nothing from the Lincoln Nebraska debacle, and they're hell-bent on inflicting that torture on a national scale. Gotta' love those guys. :rolleyes: :mad:

Dish Network used to buffer like you describe on their 522/625 (SD-DVR) but no longer do so. They stopped this with a s/w update at some point. The 622 (HD-DVR) hasn't ever done it since it's release. It certainly cuts down on wear-and-tear of the hard drive by operating this way. Makes me wonder if the drive manufacturers didn't "suggest" this change.

We LOVED this feature, and took advantage of it all the time, when we had SA8000, SA8000HD, and SA8300HD set-tops (w/ Passport).

I could have sworn I've read "digital cable-ready" so the basic process of simply hooking up a cable to get service without a box would still apply, just like it does with cable-ready sets today. The "DCR" (Digital Cable Ready) is a spec. that manufacturers must meet IF they use that logo in their advertising or packaging. It requires a QAM tuner and a CableCard slot. But sets with ATSC tuners are not required to have this. You are right, that DCR sets are relatively simple to set-up.

Actually, there has been a move away from DCR sets. For example, only the high end (XBR & such) Sony sets are DCR. The lower level sets (A2020 for example) aren't DCR as they don't have a CableCard slot.

An additional comment on the low cost cable boxes:

Here is an interesting article (http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6413139.html) on the subject. The article is somewhat dated (2/5/07) so is not up to date on FCC rulings, but it does give some insight into the finances. It is important to note that the FCC has given wavers for the Integrated Security requirement for those systems that have gone "all-digital", so the $80 converters ($3/month variety) ARE viable on those systems.

Wonder if SARA users start to get NAVIGATOR on AUG.15 or have the recent bugs delayed us getting it.(I hope) SARA 1.89.17 Greensboro NC

Quite simply, the buffering is totally F**CKED UP :(

Ah, excellent report! And very scary as all those things you are missing are major parts of my decision to spend the money I am spending for all this stuff. In my market, the only Navigator rolling out seems to be on 8300HDC's. Of course I have the option of getting that box, but from what I'm hearing, I do NOT want to do that at this time. The really scary thing is that I've heard about 2 versions of Nav. one for the HDC boxes and a different one for the HD boxes (supposedly, the HDC has slightly more RAM than the HD, all else being equal).

I was simply using the posters price. My take is that the whole pricing model will change once we get to that point and we are quite far from it yet.

You are correct, my bad.

I could have sworn I've read "digital cable-ready" so the basic process of simply hooking up a cable to get service without a box would still apply, just like it does with cable-ready sets today. If I'm wrong, again my bad. Fortunately, I really don't care one way or the other. Sat requires a box for each outlet, I see no problem with cable doing the same thing. The only question is how they price things. I just get PO'd because so many people want full HD DVRs in every room, but no one wants to pay for them. :) When I get around to upgrading my bedroom TVs to digital, I fully expect to upgrade to digital boxes (or DVRs) and to pay for them. Why would I expect anything less????

BTW. As always, thanks for keeping things straight. Sometimes I get to typing so fast and furious, I let my thoughts drift and get confused. :)

Always thought that "digital cable ready" meant the set had a QAM tuner. Still, 10 years ago that phrase was also used, but mostly meant it had a tuner period (the good old days when you could actually tune all the cable stations with a regular TV before they started scrambling most channels).

I'm shocked I'm almost making sense today as the temp/humidity is so high I'm ready to call an ambulance! My computer is right off my living room, it's large and I live in a penthouse that gets cooked like you wouldn't believe (i.e. it would cost me a fortune I don't have to a/c that area).

Always thought that "digital cable ready" meant the set had a QAM tuner.It does, but I don't recall seeing the word "digital" being added until the digital transition started. Cable-ready refers to being able to connect a cable directly to the TV to receive basic/expanded channels without a box. "Digital" cable-ready means basically the same thing, but for basic/expanded digital channels (with a QAM tuner), those that used to be analog but are now being digitally simulcast in most areas. I thought there was a mandate, but I see from the Other Dave that I am mistaken.

I don't know about Passport, but I assume it's diagnostics display shows the frequency of all channels. With SARA, I've scanned through all HD channels and copied down their frequencies to see if they are assigning more than 2 HD channels to a given frequency. You also have to include the sub-channels to get an accurate picture of frequency use, but I still don't believe that is the problem unless a local channel with 1 or more sub-channels is sharing a frequency with one of those prone to breakups. I have very few video glitches, I can go days without seeing any, live or recorded. I have a single splitter on my main set and it's signal strength is -5 with a S/N of 35. I'd be curious to know what your numbers are.

Funny, the last 2-3 hours of watching had the glitches going way down. Now I didn't pay too close attention to signal strength as it's only 6 months since techs were all over my connection and all the way to the fiber/copper node. Everything WAS up to snuff back then (although I did not note numbers). So I guess I need to pay attention... just looked again. S/N was 32 to 35. Signal strength is measured in dBvM, right? I have -10 and -12 listed for each tuner... which sounds kinda low. Still I wonder where that places me in my market with the Passport software... I'd better post in the NYC thread. Anyway, thanks for responding...

Funny, the last 2-3 hours of watching had the glitches going way down. Now I didn't pay too close attention to signal strength as it's only 6 months since techs were all over my connection and all the way to the fiber/copper node. Everything WAS up to snuff back then (although I did not note numbers). So I guess I need to pay attention... just looked again. S/N was 32 to 35. Signal strength is measured in dBvM, right? I have -10 and -12 listed for each tuner... which sounds kinda low. Still I wonder where that places me in my market with the Passport software... I'd better post in the NYC thread. Anyway, thanks for responding...

I think you have a minor S/N problem - anything below 33 will cause occasional glitches.

See this post:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8358223#post8358223

I had a guy come out and had the diags screen up when he arrived - he helped isolate and resolve the problem. Of course such things are probably easier to fix in suburbia..

xnappo

The DVR no longer buffers programming (a) when the box is turned off.
My 8300HD with Passport has a setting for whether the HardDrive is active when turned off. My older 8300 (before HD added) always buffered the last channel it was on. I actually have this off so the HardDrive shuts down when powered down for wear and tear and energy savings. It has got me a couple times when I left the tuner on a channel on purpose and then turned off the STB (which stopped the buffering). Maybe there is a setting to change the action.

Dan

I have the new Navigator software in Charlotte, NC on the 8300HDC box. I've noticed what I consider to be a major flaw that no one else in the forums has mentioned:

The DVR no longer buffers programming (a) when the box is turned off. (b) while watching a DVR recording. (c) on the tuner not currently being viewed.

It used to be, with Passport, that when you turned the box on it would have been buffering whatever channel it was tuned to when the box was turned off so you could back up TV for up to an hour prior to when the box was turned on. NO LONGER :(

It also used to be the case on Passport that if you were watching a particular channel and then started to wtch a DVR recording, once you stopped watching the DVR recording you could return to whatever you were previously watching and rewind back up to an hour. NO LONGER:(

Finally, it used to be the case, with Passport, that you could switch between tuners (using the 'Swap' button on the remote) and have the abikity to pause/rewind each of the two channels that the dual tuners were receiving. NO LONGER:(

Quite simply, the buffering is totally F**CKED UP :(


Thanks for the heads up! Those are all features I desire and use all the time. I'm forwarding those complaints to the local TWC office (added to my list of complaints from earlier this year). I've still got Passport here in Columbus on my SA8300HD, but a couple weeks ago the local TWC website added Navigator banner to the homepage, so I'm expecting to be burdened with it soon.

Dish Network used to buffer like you describe on their 522/625 (SD-DVR) but no longer do so. They stopped this with a s/w update at some point. The 622 (HD-DVR) hasn't ever done it since it's release. It certainly cuts down on wear-and-tear of the hard drive by operating this way. Makes me wonder if the drive manufacturers didn't "suggest" this change.

Thanks for posting that. I know my mom's 522 Dish box works that way, and didn't know the newer boxes had better buffering. I know she'll be happy when she gets an HDTV and upgrades to the 622.

No, you misunderstood me (or I phrased it poorly). The poster commented on how his old box, with Passport, behaved regarding it's buffer and how it's very different with Navigator. My old Dish receiver used to behave like Passport but Dish changed that too (behaves like Navigator now). The 622 has NEVER buffered like Passport. The 622 buffers similarly to Navigator. :(

Dave: I guess that I should take issue with a couple of points you made:

1) Cost of cable supplied converter: As I recall, Comcast (in Chicago) is providing the first converter free and additional ones are $2-$3/month. These are a lot lower end boxes than the $8 ones that we are used to.

2) Though I haven't heard much lately, there have been announcements of a TerraPix (http://www.broadlogic.com/11062006press.htm) box that does bulk D>A conversion at the entrance to the house.

3) The converter box is for OTA only (no cable). I saw a link to the specs for this (D2A) box a couple of weeks ago, but can't find it now (I know that I should have bookmarked it). However one good overview is this (http://www.tvtechnology.com/pages/s.0082/t.4382.html) article

4) I don't believe that there is any mandate that digital sets have QAM tuners. I've seen several lower cost DTV SD sets without a QAM tuner. The only mandate from the FCC has been for ATSC.
re 2): Here's recent article re BroadLogix TerraPix:
http://www.lightreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=126591&site=cdn
A single "STB" in the garage (or condo utility cabinet) would reconstitute the analog (plus digital)
channels for distribution to multiple TVs--whether old analog, DCR/iDCR or STB/DVR.
[So what happens to the digital channels that took over the old analog channel positions.....]

re 3): Here's link to government's low-rez OTA STB coupon program:
http://www.ntia.doc.gov/dtvcoupon/index.html

re 4): The only gov't mandate re tuners is pretty simple: IF THERE IS A TUNER, IT MUST RECEIVE ATSC.
Which results in "Monitors" and VCRs without any tuners, DVD Recorders with low-rez only ATSC Tuners
and even NTSC/ATSC capable DTVs with optional QAM...and no CableCARD.

There is no "mandate" to build DCR DTV's. [Which by definition includes NTSC, QAM and CableCARD.]
However, an (extra cost) ATSC tuner capability is always found in a DCR DTV, even though the set
is always connected to cable....cuz it includes analog tuner for cable.

BTW: The under $75 STB (SD-only, non-interactive) still remains an elusive device,
perhaps available post-2009....with DCAS.
Motorola's DCT700 All Digital SD-STB may come close to this objective, but because
it is interactive (don't ask) and/or does not include CableCARD (or an APPROVED DCAS),
the FCC has denied various CableCARD Integration waivers from MSOs proposing to use this box.

With CableCARD, the lowest price for an SD-only, non-interactive STB is closer to $200.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11256401&&#post11256401

xnappo

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11256401&&#post11256401

xnappo
But only on Motorola boxes.(??)

But only on Motorola boxes.(??)

Indeed.. Confusing. I wonder if the current software on the Motorola boxes will be updated to be SDV compatible? They are Passport right?

xnappo