They are Passport right?Don't know - I'm in SA/SARA territory.

Interesting post by bgooch to the TWC consumer input thread. (Yes, that's the same thread that CrazyWoody believes is dead. Woody is pretty close to the truth, but maybe there's still a little breath in the old thread after all.)

bgooch calls attention to http://www.connected-home-news.com/content/view/333/47/ which seems to indicate that owners of Motorola machines may have a little more time (on into 2008) before they have to go with Navigator. (Won't help Lincoln; we have SA boxes. But maybe some of you folks with Motorola boxes can rest a little easier for now.)

Indeed.. Confusing. I wonder if the current software on the Motorola boxes will be updated to be SDV compatible? They are Passport right?

xnappo

My parents live in Elyria, Ohio which is a Motorola Platform TW location (used to be Comcast), they run the iGuide by TVGuide/Gemstar. It is SDV compatible. TW needs to run OpenTV to allow OCAP complaint guides to run. The Motorola box software will not run any OCAP complaint guide without some type of middleware. Had a conversation with a tech up there, said since iGuide is SDV compliant they are leaving it until they roll OpenTV which gives them capability of using Navigator.

So to simplify, no they do not run Passport on most of their Motorola systems (as most were acquired from Comcast and the TW standard is Scientific Atlanta).

I currently live in Delaware, Ohio and TW is informing us we will have Navigator by end of year, depending on location their rollout should start within the next 2 months.

My parents live in Elyria, Ohio which is a Motorola Platform TW location (used to be Comcast), they run the iGuide by TVGuide/Gemstar. It is SDV compatible. TW needs to run OpenTV to allow OCAP complaint guides to run. The Motorola box software will not run any OCAP complaint guide without some type of middleware. Had a conversation with a tech up there, said since iGuide is SDV compliant they are leaving it until they roll OpenTV which gives them capability of using Navigator.

So to simplify, no they do not run Passport on most of their Motorola systems (as most were acquired from Comcast and the TW standard is Scientific Atlanta).

I currently live in Delaware, Ohio and TW is informing us we will have Navigator by end of year, depending on location their rollout should start within the next 2 months.

Thanks for the great info. Sounds like no reprieve for Sci-Atl boxes.

xnappo

Does anybody know if TW runs Passport (Passport for DCT or ECHO) on Motorola headends?

AptivDigital website sez Passport DCT is version for Motorola DCT-xxxx series DVRs:
http://www.aptivdigital.com/passportdct/passportdct.asp

Forum search for Passport DCT only finds on COX and RCN systems:
Among other things, I tried search for <+"Passport DCT" -cox -rcn>

ECHO is used not just for S/A, but also for some of the newer Motorola DCT series:
http://www.aptivdigital.com/passportecho/passportecho.asp
Searching for <+"Passport Echo" +warner +motorola> (also +dct) came up with nothing.
So it's apparently used on some COMCAST and COX systems, but not TWC.
FWIW, I've never heard of TWC users reporting ECHO on Moto DVRs.

=========================================
BTW: TWC reportedly has 30 percent Motorola boxes--a very substantial number:
http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6439513.html

And appears to be either Passport DCT or the new iGuide (from Gemstar-TVGuide):
http://www.timewarnercable.com/MediaLibrary/4/24/Content%20Management/Products%20And%20Services/documents/i-guideforweb.pdf
PS: I saw new COMCAST iGuide release last week at a friend's house...
It was slow, buggy and missing OnDemand search....and no User Guide till I emailed it to him.

==========================================
TWC may be sitting back and letting COMCAST bear the brunt of the Moto OCAP debug effort....

Here in Milwaukee,

I am not sure if our TWC office has Motorola boxes. I think we are SA on everything new. The legacy boxes are Pioneer and Pace. Are Pace boxes still being manufactured? If not, than I think we are SA.

This is really interesting that according to the new information in the Customer Service forum about the Motorola boxes now being delayed with Navigator until 2008! I heard that some other TWC cities were going to delay Navigator to Motorola boxes because of the boxes being too new or something like that.

Do you infer from this that Navigator is itself still being tested? How do you think this will effect the forthcoming roll out on the legacy boxes?

Jack

My source at TWC that has been strangely mute as of late gave me a small nugget.There is a debate among the suits.Some want a general rollout and some want to continue the slow rollout.The ones that want a fast rollout want to get the flack behind them and move on to sdv and other open tv options.The other group wants to have a polished Navigator before a wider release.Guess the 8300hdc are still beta testers. SARA 1.89.17 Greensboro NC

My source at TWC that has been strangely mute as of late gave me a small nugget.There is a debate among the suits.Some want a general rollout and some want to continue the slow rollout.The ones that want a fast rollout want to get the flack behind them and move on to sdv and other open tv options.The other group wants to have a polished Navigator before a wider release.Guess the 8300hdc are still beta testers. SARA 1.89.17 Greensboro NC


If your source is correct CW,

It sounds like this could become a local office managerial decision as to how they want to handle Navigator's rollout. Food for thought is, how much has been learned from Navigator's disasters in Lincoln Nebraska, and what is left to be known before the national changeover?

Like I said, I will be upgrading my cable to include Road Runner Internet and Digital Phone sometime this fall after my DSL contract expires. I'll try to keep you guys posted if they give us a new box for caller ID on Digital Phone.

My question is, when the boxes and/or DVR's come from the manufacturer, who puts the guide on them? How would Time Warner be able to go back to a Passport Guide if all of their head-end modes (the signals at the head-end that transmit and receive signals to and from the boxes.) are already Navigator equipped? Or is the software on the boxes, (ie Passport, Navigator, or Sara) independent of how the head-end deals with the signal?

Jack

...how much has been learned from Navigator's disasters in Lincoln Nebraska Given that TWC is rolling out Navigator in many locations all over the country, do they really consider it a disaster ??
My question is, when the boxes and/or DVR's come from the manufacturer, who puts the guide on them? I'm 99% positive that they come "empty" unless they can tell SA to image them. SARA costs money so TWC isn't going to pay for licenses of that if they running Passport or Navigator.

I'm 99% positive that they come "empty" unless they can tell SA to image them. SARA costs money so TWC isn't going to pay for licenses of that if they running Passport or Navigator.Obviously they come with an underlying OS (Power TV?) or they wouldn't function at all. Once connected to the cable and authorized, they simply download the current firmware and IPG data used by that cableco. Since TWC is rolling out Navigator in areas already served by Passport, it appears they can assign a DVR to one or the other software packages. I assume a cableco could actually use all 3 packages (SARA, Passport, and Navigator) because I believe they all work with the same headend software, underlying OS, IPG database, etc. That would suggest they could revert to Passport on a given DVR if someone raised a big enough ruckus. Of course, I'm just thinking out loud and could be wrong. :)

It would seem that the answer would be as to how fast SARA systems start getting Navigator.I belive a larger percent of TWC customers have SARA than PASSPORT.If SARA systems start being seeded we can assume beta testing is over' SARA 1.89.17 Greensboro NC

TW is likely a lot less motivated to move SARA to Navigator as SARA already has the features (SDV, etc.) that THEY want.

Actually, I'm relatively pleased with the SARA software.

The only changes I feel are needed are:

1) Name based keyboard style search that searches the whole schedule (IE: all seven days)

2) Customizable guide data (add/delete channels) or an All Sub option to streamline the guide.

3) An updated GUI

I'd be happy with that, especially the search.

I agree about SARA.If the changes you mentioned came about SARA would be my guide of choice. SARA1.89.17 Grensboro NC

Hi Everyone,

I would like to create a new subtopic for the TWC Navigator forum. That is the discussion of ordering PPV and I-control programs for those of you who either:

1.) Got the new Navigator guide downloaded to your older boxes OR

2.) Received new boxes with Navigator on them.

For those of you with situation (1) How did the ordering of PPV and I-Control (VOD programs) work for you? Did you have to change your Purchase Pin #'s or settings to order PPV? With new boxes, at least with TWC in Milwaukee, the default PPV/I-Control Purchase pin is 0000. When you got Navigator on your old boxes from an updated download, did you have to change this?

Is Parental Control turned on by default in Navigator?

For those of you with situation (2) How did PPV/I-Control (VOD) programs work for you? Is the PPV/VOD ordering process the same as it is in Passport?

Lastly, for users who had Navigator through an updated download on an existing box, did you have to reprogram your Favorite Channels List, or did that stay intact?

Jack

Coming soon to a Navigator system near you. *


A Variation on the DVR, Without Ad Skipping

In a move that is certain to delight advertisers, Time Warner Cable is about to offer its customers a free recording feature for their televisions — one that will not allow them to zap through the commercials.

The service, called Look Back, will let cable customers watch certain shows later on that they missed, just the way a digital video recorder does, but without an extra monthly fee. The fast-forwarding function will be turned off, however, and consumers will be limited to watching programs later on during the day they are shown, anytime before midnight.

Time Warner Cable plans to start offering Look Back in October in South Carolina and then gradually introduce it around the country.

The service will be something of a test case both for consumers, who will have to weigh how much control they need over their television viewing and how much they are willing to pay for it, and advertising executives, who in the past refused to pay for commercials shown during time-shifted viewing because they thought most advertisements were skipped.


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/13/business/media/13adcol.html?ex=1344657600&en=2a379b8e05b8ce63&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

* if you live in South Carolina. Everyone else look for it sometime next century.

Didn't this system, along with head-end hosted DVRs (can't recall the term), get shot down by copyright holders ?? I understand that there's On Demand currently, but the owners of the shows have to allow them to be offered this way.

Obviously they come with an underlying OS (Power TV?) or they wouldn't function at all. Once connected to the cable and authorized, they simply download the current firmware and IPG data used by that cableco. Since TWC is rolling out Navigator in areas already served by Passport, it appears they can assign a DVR to one or the other software packages. I assume a cableco could actually use all 3 packages (SARA, Passport, and Navigator) because I believe they all work with the same headend software, underlying OS, IPG database, etc. That would suggest they could revert to Passport on a given DVR if someone raised a big enough ruckus. Of course, I'm just thinking out loud and could be wrong. :)

I believe your thinking is correct. I am running both the SA8300HD DVR and the SA8300HDC DVR side by side in the Raleigh/Durham, NC TWC market. The 8300HD has the passport OS on it running the old guide and the 8300HDC has the Power TV OS on it with the new Navigator guide on it. When I first got the 8300HDC it took what seemed like 15-12 minutes to download and program the box. Once that was done, power cycling the box doesn't take as long as the inital power on, but it takes A LOT longer than the 8300HD box. Mystro takes a long time to load on the 8300HDC.

If people are smart, they'll laugh in the face of TWC regarding Look Back. I wouldn't accept any service that doesn't allow me to skip/fast forward content, commercial or not!

Didn't this system, along with head-end hosted DVRs (can't recall the term), get shot down by copyright holders ?? I understand that there's On Demand currently, but the owners of the shows have to allow them to be offered this way.No, that was a different system (network DVR) (shot down at a different cable company) where the customer would request a program be recorded in advance (just like a DVR). I understand that is being appealed.

Start-Over (and I am pretty sure the new Look-Back) are available within certain time constraints (before the program ends for "Start-Over" and before the end of the day for "Look-Back"). In addition, both of these only work for networks and SPECIFIC programs where the program owner has given permission.

If people are smart, they'll laugh in the face of TWC regarding Look Back. I wouldn't accept any service that doesn't allow me to skip/fast forward content, commercial or not!
In which case you'll pay extra for a DVR.

The whole point of START OVER and LOOK BACK is to entice non-DVR
users (the majority of digital customers)...and THEN get them to upgrade....

In which case you'll pay extra for a DVR.

The whole point of START OVER and LOOK BACK is to entice non-DVR
users (the majority of digital customers)...and THEN get them to upgrade....

I have heard of Start Over/Look back in a few cable markets already,

It must still be in a very experimental phase. From what I understand when you turn to certain channels in the middle of a show, you will be given a prompt on the screen to start over when you visit the channel, which will allow you to play the program (with commercials unfortunately) from the beginning. It's not all that great. But if you come home late and you want to catch a show from the beginning, it's a nice little feature. But it is no DVR or even VOD (I-Control Programing) All you will be able to do is start a program over again. It's little more than a DVR "teaser feature."

Limitations on Look Back will be:

1.) Unlike DVR, you can not pause or save to a list for a later play date or store information. You will just be able to restart a show, and you must do so, when the show is in progress.

2.) Unlike DVR, no commercial skip or even VOD functionality associated with I-Control AFAIK. Although it would be cool if they could incorporate I-Control/VOD into Look Back

3.) It's ok for people who don't want to pay an added $7.00-$8.00/month for a DVR, but in my view, for people with a DVR, who would care about Look Back? I agree that this could be just an incentive to get people to upgrade to DVR for the added fee.

4.) Only selected channels (at least with the cable outlets that have Look Back now) will have the Look Back option.

Jack

So I am on my second 8300hdc box. I just started having the recording problems that caused me to return the first one. Works fine for a bit and then stops recording whether it's a series recording or a manual one. I get the unresolved recording conflict and the channel not available (even though I am watching it).

As for how I like the new guide and system, I don't. It is much slower and some of the features I used often on the passport are missing. Not being able to quickly hit search to see when the same movie/show comes on again is a pain. I also miss being able to hit the favorite button while looking at the guide to bounce through each one. Now it changes the channel to the next favorite as if you weren't using the guide.

Of course, the dvr problems are the worst. I tried to get one of the older boxes back and they said they couldn't. I'll have to admit that the new guide and the issues have made me consider satellite for the first time. They already offer more HD channels here, and now that I no longer have the guide that I like, I have little reason to stay with Time Warner.

So I am on my second 8300hdc box. I just started having the recording problems that caused me to return the first one. Works fine for a bit and then stops recording whether it's a series recording or a manual one. I get the unresolved recording conflict and the channel not available (even though I am watching it).

As for how I like the new guide and system, I don't. It is much slower and some of the features I used often on the passport are missing. Not being able to quickly hit search to see when the same movie/show comes on again is a pain. I also miss being able to hit the favorite button while looking at the guide to bounce through each one. Now it changes the channel to the next favorite as if you weren't using the guide.

Of course, the dvr problems are the worst. I tried to get one of the older boxes back and they said they couldn't. I'll have to admit that the new guide and the issues have made me consider satellite for the first time. They already offer more HD channels here, and now that I no longer have the guide that I like, I have little reason to stay with Time Warner.

I am with you here in Raleigh. I have looked into Satellite and their DVR is getting pretty mature and usable at this point. Some even like it more than their Tivo. With the new satellite they just launched, they are promising 70 new HD channels by the end of the year, and 30 in a month. Raleigh Locals are broadcast in HD also. Sci-Fi in HD is coming by the end of the year! I think satellite will be the way to go in a month or so. Looks like all I won't get is PBS in HD. The newest DVR will record off air channels also though.

I cannot believe they have released Navigator in this form. There is no way to even manually record a time slot. Glitches all the time. Sometimes when I fast forward, and hit play the program jumps to the end. Several times I have had to power off the box because it was recording a channel in black. I could not get a picture at all on a channel I receive.

I cannot believe they have released Navigator in this form. Just a reminder folks (it's been pointed out quite some time ago in this thread): Time Warner does not have to switch from Passport to Navigator on the 8300HDC, or any other box. They can get the features that they need, and claim to want, from Aptiv (the provider of Passport). The only problem is that they have to pay Aptiv, and some "wise guy" in TW has sold management a bill of goods to (instead of keeping customers happy) to "roll their own".

Don't let ANYONE try to tell you that this has anything to do with the 7/1/07 FCC ban on integrated security either! That can, and is, being met on other cable systems with SA boxes and Passport - it's just that TW chooses not to!

That begs the question. Does anyone know how Aptiv, SA, etc., tend to price their software? Is it a flat fee? Or is it based on average number of users? Or something else? I simply can't believe TWC is saving any money on Navigator, at least not in the short term.

Here's the big thing that should concern the crap out of all of us,

If TWC is STILL having problems with Navigator on DVR, I shudder to think of the potential hell and horror that could occur if and when they start Navigator's download to legacy boxes. These DVR units are SUPPOSED to be top of the line, or at least have all the memory and added features for Navigator.

This is going to be a very interesting several months for many of us TWC subscribers!

Jack

Obviously they come with an underlying OS (Power TV?) or they wouldn't function at all. Once connected to the cable and authorized, they simply download the current firmware and IPG data used by that cableco. Since TWC is rolling out Navigator in areas already served by Passport, it appears they can assign a DVR to one or the other software packages. I assume a cableco could actually use all 3 packages (SARA, Passport, and Navigator) because I believe they all work with the same headend software, underlying OS, IPG database, etc. That would suggest they could revert to Passport on a given DVR if someone raised a big enough ruckus. Of course, I'm just thinking out loud and could be wrong. :)

Dave, I've read one, maybe 2 reports claiming, in systems that are running Navigator, that the internal drive was swapped for a larger one and the entire software system got downloaded (internal drive swap worked). It's POSSIBLE there is enough code in the firmware of the box to do this... although I'd find it unlikely.

As this stuff could be highly regionally oriented, if I heard more than one report from AVS regulars that they swapped out an internal drive, I'd be delighted.

TW is likely a lot less motivated to move SARA to Navigator as SARA already has the features (SDV, etc.) that THEY want.

What I recall is that SARA is SDV compatible right now, so they announced Passport systems would get Navigator first... i.e. they were NOT going to bring that capability to Passport, THEN roll out Navigator. A very logical decision, completely marred by the fact that from all I've read, Navigator is a good two years away from being any kind of production quality software.

I believe your thinking is correct. I am running both the SA8300HD DVR and the SA8300HDC DVR side by side in the Raleigh/Durham, NC TWC market. The 8300HD has the passport OS on it running the old guide and the 8300HDC has the Power TV OS on it with the new Navigator guide on it. When I first got the 8300HDC it took what seemed like 15-12 minutes to download and program the box. Once that was done, power cycling the box doesn't take as long as the inital power on, but it takes A LOT longer than the 8300HD box. Mystro takes a long time to load on the 8300HDC.

WOW, very cool that someone in one market can really compare the two with first hand observation... there are too many folks (such as myself) who are postings thoughts and opinions based not on first hand observation, but what others are saying (I think I have an average of 2 "I have reads" in almost every post I make).

On the other hand, I suspect there are far more regional differences... in my market, HDC boxes running Navigator are rolling out and more than one person is complaining about an almost total lack of any kind of normal DVR functionality, complaints I have NOT heard coming from guys in your market. I have read.

Just a reminder folks (it's been pointed out quite some time ago in this thread): Time Warner does not have to switch from Passport to Navigator on the 8300HDC, or any other box.

It does seem clear they will not rev Passport for SDV compatibility, they NEED SDV going forward, so while you are correct, it isn't in their best interest NOT to swap Passport for Navigator. Kinda of like an internal mandate.

That begs the question. Does anyone know how Aptiv, SA, etc., tend to price their software? Is it a flat fee? Or is it based on average number of users? Or something else? I simply can't believe TWC is saving any money on Navigator, at least not in the short term.

Ah, that IS the question, isn't it? Only an opinion, but given that it is clear they are shoving pre-alpha quality software down the pike, it seems they have one, maybe 2 programmers outsourced from some odd country, that has almost no TV service anyway, whom they are paying minimum wage to create Navigator. Definitely cheaper than keeping Passport of SARA rolling...

Well, I know that if they unleash a Navigator version upon me that is totally glitch laden and non-functional, I will be calling DirecTV and looking at my options. The biggest turn off that has kept me from satellite is the PITA installs. IE: A 5 LNB dish would require 5 drops of coax into my home (4 for sat/1 for OTA) to a multiswitch and then 2 drops to a dual tuner DVR on the main set. I could re-use the other cable drops but then would still require an STB at each set at a cost of $5 per outlet. Time Warner, right now, is just a better value. Let's hope they keep it that way!

Well, I know that if they unleash a Navigator version upon me that is totally glitch laden and non-functional, I will be calling DirecTV and looking at my options. The biggest turn off that has kept me from satellite is the PITA installs. IE: A 5 LNB dish would require 5 drops of coax into my home (4 for sat/1 for OTA) to a multiswitch and then 2 drops to a dual tuner DVR on the main set. I could re-use the other cable drops but then would still require an STB at each set at a cost of $5 per outlet. Time Warner, right now, is just a better value. Let's hope they keep it that way!

In a month from now (if all goes well) and Directv adds 30 more HD channels, I think the value will swing to Directv. And by the end of the year, even more HD channels should be added. Then another satellite is being launched early next year. Of course many of these are Pay channels, but still. Sci-Fi by the end of the year!!

Here is the projected list for September:
A&E
Animal Planet
Big Ten Network
Chiller
CineMax East
CineMax West
CNN
Discovery Channel (simulcast)
Food Network
HBO West
HGTV
History Channel
MHD (MTV)
NFL Network (Full-Time)
Science Channel
Showtime West
Starz! East
Starz! West
Starz! Edge
Starz! Comedy
Starz! Kids & Family
The Movie Channel
The National Geographic Channel
TBS
TLC
The Weather Channel
Versus/Golf

And for the end of the year:

Bravo
Cartoon
CNBC
FX
HBO2 East
HBO2 West
HBO Family East
HBO Family West
HBO Latino East
HBO Signature East
MoreMax East
Sci-Fi
Sleuth
Speed
USA

Is there any news on TWC adding HD channels?

Dave, I've read one, maybe 2 reports claiming, in systems that are running Navigator, that the internal drive was swapped for a larger one and the entire software system got downloaded (internal drive swap worked). It's POSSIBLE there is enough code in the firmware of the box to do this... although I'd find it unlikely.

As this stuff could be highly regionally oriented, if I heard more than one report from AVS regulars that they swapped out an internal drive, I'd be delighted.


I promise it works :-) at least in the Raleigh market. If there was something in the diag screen showing the drive size, I'd get a pic from my friend, but there seems to be nothing. He has twice as many shows as he used to get before filling his recorded and has not went over 25 percent yet.

Ah, that IS the question, isn't it? Only an opinion, but given that it is clear they are shoving pre-alpha quality software down the pike, it seems they have one, maybe 2 programmers outsourced from some odd country, that has almost no TV service anyway, whom they are paying minimum wage to create Navigator. Definitely cheaper than keeping Passport of SARA rolling...Earlier posts (or perhaps articles in the Lincoln, NE paper) have indicated that TW has their own group of around 100 programmers in Colorado doing this work - so I believe that you are a bit off on the "outsourcing" score. However, it is very clear that the corporation lacks the engineering leadership and discipline that it takes to properly develop, test and deploy software.

Well, I know that if they unleash a Navigator version upon me that is totally glitch laden and non-functional, I will be calling DirecTV and looking at my options. The biggest turn off that has kept me from satellite is the PITA installs. IE: A 5 LNB dish would require 5 drops of coax into my home (4 for sat/1 for OTA) to a multiswitch and then 2 drops to a dual tuner DVR on the main set. I could re-use the other cable drops but then would still require an STB at each set at a cost of $5 per outlet. Time Warner, right now, is just a better value. Let's hope they keep it that way!Relax Ben, You have SARA, and it sure looks like TW is likely a log way from converting your (and my) system to Navigator (despite what Crazywoodie's source tells him).

Hope my source is wrong.Navigator seems like a complete unready screwup.As for my 5 cents worth if TW only wanted one guide why not system wide deploy SARA and have Cisco beef up its search engine.I guarantee they would have had way less problems than withNavigator.The Passport folk (as we SARA folk)do would have griped about the search engine but everything else works fine.TWC should drop NAVIGATOR and deploy SARA system wide.(That's my 2 cents worth)

I promise it works :-) at least in the Raleigh market. If there was something in the diag screen showing the drive size, I'd get a pic from my friend, but there seems to be nothing. He has twice as many shows as he used to get before filling his recorded and has not went over 25 percent yet.

Do you have the SA8300HDC with PowerTV OS and Navigator? I'd be willing to try the larger HD in my 8300HDC box if you've gotten it to work. If you do have the 8300HDC box, how do you get into diags? What screen shows the percentage used space?

I'm still trying to decide if I want to keep the 8300HD (currently on Passport) or the 8300HDC.

I am with you here in Raleigh. I have looked into Satellite and their DVR is getting pretty mature and usable at this point. Some even like it more than their Tivo. With the new satellite they just launched, they are promising 70 new HD channels by the end of the year, and 30 in a month. Raleigh Locals are broadcast in HD also. Sci-Fi in HD is coming by the end of the year! I think satellite will be the way to go in a month or so. Looks like all I won't get is PBS in HD. The newest DVR will record off air channels also though.

I cannot believe they have released Navigator in this form. There is no way to even manually record a time slot. Glitches all the time. Sometimes when I fast forward, and hit play the program jumps to the end. Several times I have had to power off the box because it was recording a channel in black. I could not get a picture at all on a channel I receive.

I am here in Raleigh too. I am seeing the same issues. They finally did resolve the issue where you couldn't record anything through the season pass feature because the guide was hosed. I also experience intermittant issues where I can't pause or rewind live tv. It just doesn't respond. So I have to reboot it and then it's fine again for a few days. The reboot wouldn't be so bad if it didn't take 10 minutes to reboot! I think it might be time to revisit directv if they don't get this mess straightened out soon.

Obviously they come with an underlying OS (Power TV?) or they wouldn't function at all. Once connected to the cable and authorized, they simply download the current firmware and IPG data used by that cableco. Since TWC is rolling out Navigator in areas already served by Passport, it appears they can assign a DVR to one or the other software packages. I assume a cableco could actually use all 3 packages (SARA, Passport, and Navigator) because I believe they all work with the same headend software, underlying OS, IPG database, etc. That would suggest they could revert to Passport on a given DVR if someone raised a big enough ruckus. Of course, I'm just thinking out loud and could be wrong. :)Dave,

I don't think a cableco can actually use all 3 packages (SARA, Passport, and Navigator) at the same time. There was a discussion a long time ago about people switching from SARA to Passport and the consensus was that it wouldn't work. I think the electronic program guide is different for SARA and Passport unless that has changed. TWC is running both Passport and Navigator at the same time in certain areas.

Do you have the SA8300HDC with PowerTV OS and Navigator? I'd be willing to try the larger HD in my 8300HDC box if you've gotten it to work. If you do have the 8300HDC box, how do you get into diags? What screen shows the percentage used space?

I'm still trying to decide if I want to keep the 8300HD (currently on Passport) or the 8300HDC.

That is what my friend has that has done the upgrade. 8300HDC with the M cable card in the back running Navigator.

To get into diag, hold down the select key until something (mail?) blinks on the front panel of the DVR, then press the down arrow key. His has nothing on the size of the disk in the 9 pages that are there.

Dave,

I don't think a cableco can actually use all 3 packages (SARA, Passport, and Navigator) at the same time. There was a discussion a long time ago about people switching from SARA to Passport and the consensus was that it wouldn't work. I think the electronic program guide is different for SARA and Passport unless that has changed. TWC is running both Passport and Navigator at the same time in certain areas.You may be correct, though I thought someone had Navigator on an 8300 and SARA on a 2100, but it certainly could have been Passport or I could be thinking of something totally different. But, now that you bring it up, I believe SARA systems use Tribune Data version 2 (from Gemstar/TV Guide I think) as the IPG database, what do Passport/Navigator systems use?

Dave, I've read one, maybe 2 reports claiming, in systems that are running Navigator, that the internal drive was swapped for a larger one and the entire software system got downloaded (internal drive swap worked). It's POSSIBLE there is enough code in the firmware of the box to do this... although I'd find it unlikely.

As this stuff could be highly regionally oriented, if I heard more than one report from AVS regulars that they swapped out an internal drive, I'd be delighted.I think you've got a long wait ahead. I just don't think there are that many folks here willing to swap the drive in a cableco-owned unit and then be willing to publicize it. :)

It would be nice to have "First Run" everywhere if they stick with SARA...

v/r,
C-F

It would be nice to have "First Run" everywhere if they stick with SARA...

v/r,
C-FTWC is not going to stick with SARA. It is just a matter of time before Digital Navigator replaces it. "First Run" has been in SARA for a long time, if it doesn't show up as a menu option the IPG is either not setting the "First Run" flag or the IPG hasn't been updated to a current version.

That's what I meant.

If they can't be bothered to get correct "First Run" enabled guide data,
why bother me with NAVIGATOR?

v/r,
C-F

You may be correct, though I thought someone had Navigator on an 8300 and SARA on a 2100, but it certainly could have been Passport or I could be thinking of something totally different. But, now that you bring it up, I believe SARA systems use Tribune Data version 2 (from Gemstar/TV Guide I think) as the IPG database, what do Passport/Navigator systems use?I don't know what IPG database Passport uses. I think the TWC systems that use SARA may be able to run both SARA and Navigator when TWC is ready to roll out Navigator in those systems. Otherwise, there would have to be one big roll out replacing all SARA systems with Navigator.

Currently, TWC is doing a smaller roll out in the Passport systems where only the new 8300HDC boxes have Navigator and the older 8300HD boxes still have Passport.

Russ,

I have to smile a bit. If SARA and Nav run on same system, and Passport and Nav run on same system, then it seems like SARA, Passport, and Nav could all run on the same system, not that all 3 are. :)

But it could also be that SARA systems will be last, not only because they are already SDV compliant, but because those systems would need to convert to the different IPG database at the same time.

The other fly in the ointment is that the Nav being rolled out seems to be an OCAP-compliant version. If true, this could suggest that OCAP and non-OCAP software can co-exist (which would make sense for testing, etc.) and may be the real reason Passport and Nav run on the same system.

There are at least two versions of Digital Navigator (the OCAP version and the non OCAP version). Also, there may be other versions that only work with SARA IPGs or Passport IPGs. This would be similar to different versions of SARA that work with different cable systems even within the same cable company depending on what hardware and software that is being used. The other alternative would be to have one version that handles all the differences. The OCAP version should be able to handle this, but I don't think the non CAP version would.

Earlier posts (or perhaps articles in the Lincoln, NE paper) have indicated that TW has their own group of around 100 programmers in Colorado doing this work - so I believe that you are a bit off on the "outsourcing" score. However, it is very clear that the corporation lacks the engineering leadership and discipline that it takes to properly develop, test and deploy software.

Literary license, don't you know!

Seriously, as one who has managed software development, you are absolutely correct, it isn't so much the coders as it is their managers...

I don't know what IPG database Passport uses. I think the TWC systems that use SARA may be able to run both SARA and Navigator when TWC is ready to roll out Navigator in those systems. Otherwise, there would have to be one big roll out replacing all SARA systems with Navigator.

Currently, TWC is doing a smaller roll out in the Passport systems where only the new 8300HDC boxes have Navigator and the older 8300HD boxes still have Passport.

Logic would say that TWC purchases the raw data (ASCII files) for the guide then "imports" it into whatever system they run from the head end. However, they also do tons of totally back-asswards things, so I wouldn't bet the farm on them doing it the logical way.

There are at least two versions of Digital Navigator (the OCAP version and the non OCAP version). Also, there may be other versions that only work with SARA IPGs or Passport IPGs. This would be similar to different versions of SARA that work with different cable systems even within the same cable company depending on what hardware and software that is being used. The other alternative would be to have one version that handles all the differences. The OCAP version should be able to handle this, but I don't think the non CAP version would.

It has been mentioned there are 2 versions of Navigator being deployed... one for the HDC boxes and one of the HD boxes. Apparently, the hardware differences are only in the amount of RAM (other than the hardware for the cable card and it's associated electronics).

One more factor in how bogus they are with software, there is absolutely NO reason to have 2 different software packages; a single one could very easily deal with whatever RAM they faced.

What I don't get is all the emphasis many place on the OCAP functionality. OCAP (as far as I know) has nothing, nada, zip to do with giving the cable guys some more bandwidth to counter the HD expansion the satellite guys are doing. So for someone in a major market that has a paltry 15 HD channels, SDV holds far, far more interest to me than OCAP.

What I don't get is all the emphasis many place on the OCAP functionality. OCAP (as far as I know) has nothing, nada, zip to do with giving the cable guys some more bandwidth to counter the HD expansion the satellite guys are doing. So for someone in a major market that has a paltry 15 HD channels, SDV holds far, far more interest to me than OCAP.No one that I know of has ever said OCAP will do anything to add HD capacity, SDV and further build-out to 850-1000 Mhz will do that. However, OCAP (and DCAS) will pave the way for cross-platform software/applications and eventually lead to STBs/DVRs going mainstream, that is, being sold in retail outlets.

Nay-sayers continue to maintain this will never happen because there is money to be made renting equipment. I believe (hope) this is hogwash. Cableco's will continue to control the software (with mulitple options I hope) and IMHO there is far more money to be made charging us for service than there is in maintaining/supporting an inventory of ever-changing user hardware.

If cableco's do continue to control hardware, there will be far less inovation and it will be as slow as it's ever been. I believe Sisco, Motorola, Samsung, and many others are just waiting for the opportunity to provide a variety of hardware options that will provide far more options than we will ever get with budget-conscience cableco pencil-pushers, like USB archiving (ala Dish), integrated internet/phone services (more than just on-screen Caller ID), etc.

Speaking of internet integration, I think it would be great if I could forego the cable IPG in favor of just pulling up TitanTV on my TV and using it's features to interface with my (retail) DVR. And I'm sure there are many applications that I can't even think of, being of the "older" generation. How about built-in Slingbox and things like that? IMHO, if this stuff ever goes retail, prices will come down significantly and there will be some real competition for our $$$. I hope the Tivo S3 Lite is just the first salvo.

What I don't get is all the emphasis many place on the OCAP functionality. OCAP (as far as I know) has nothing, nada, zip to do with giving the cable guys some more bandwidth to counter the HD expansion the satellite guys are doing. So for someone in a major market that has a paltry 15 HD channels, SDV holds far, far more interest to me than OCAP.There is a BUSINESS connection between SDV and OCAP:

Well, the connection is not "technical" but is rather political/business. Namely, Congress and the FCC have been pushing for fully functional CUSTOMER OWNED navigation devices. Though there is some debate, there is widespread agreement that OCAP is one approach to this - and everyone is working towards that.

Now the SDV connection: IF TW is going to make investments in software that meets there other interests and provides SDV - it sure as hell will be based on OCAP.

OCAP is a platform that a lot of "stuff" is becoming dependent on. For TW migrating Passport systems to a platform that is SDV capable (without paying Aptiv more money) is one of them.

Well,

On August 28th we will be upgrading to TWC All in One Package. (Digital Phone+Road Runner added to our cable service.) We are also supposed to be getting a free year of DVR service. It sounds like they are really pushing the DVR on anyone who gets an All in One Package. I will be Navigated at that time, so we will see what happens.

Jack

Is Time Warner testing SDV in any markets? In the diag screen of my HD8300HDC w/ Navigator it appears it's not used just yet... in the Raleigh/Durham, NC market.

Hi guys.
I posted a while back(#1166) of my success with an external HD with my new 8300 HDC. There's some good news and bad news. The bad news, the HD setup that I linked ended up not working so well. Constant stuutering and little freezes were just to frequent to tolerate, so I scrapped it. I checked out xnappo's database and decided to give one a shot which had a lot of success with Passport. I'm very happy to report it's working perfectly now, no sutters, no problems whatsoever! The setup I went with was the WD5000AAKS 500GB with an APRICORN EZ-BUS-DTS-EKIT enclosure. Like I said so far it's been perfect.

Now for a question. I went out at bought a signal booster from Radio Shack. Wanted to see if it would improve the SD a bit. Well I can't really see any difference. TWC has a page for diagnostics on the 8300, I believe it channel 996 or something. Anyway when I go to the page there are 2 values which are different with and without the signal booster. I'm hoping someone can tell me what the values mean. The first is RDC Power it's 57 with the booster and 41 without. The second value is FDC Power it's -10 with the booster and -6 without. So anyone know what RDC and FDC power is, and which values are better? Thanks.

Blue-Rage,

There is some info near the end of the first post in the SARA Tips thread that might answer your questions. See my sig for a link.

I just got the new 8300 HD DVR from Time Warner NY. It is not a Passport, it is the new Mystro. I hooked it up and find that when I change stations and the resolution changes from station to station, the picture on my TV goes from picture to black to picture to black and stays black for about 5 seconds. I called Time Warner about this and they said they don't support HDMI (or DVI) and to use the component cables I was given. I told them that the cable doesn't give as sharp a picture as the HDMI. They said they couldn't help me and that is the way the box works. I called Scientific Atlanta and they said I have to go into the service menu in the box and I can choose just the 1080 resolution and that should solve the problem. I am not sure that I believe this but I am willing to try it. The problem is that Time Warner has the code (what buttons to press either on the box or the remote to get into the menu) and they won't give it out. They say the box shouldn't be changed. Considering the amount of my cable bill each month I am not willing to accept second rate cable. Is anyone else having this problem and what can I do about it? It is extremely annoying and I am considering going to Direct TV.

Yes, I had similar issues between resolution switches. I believe it is caused by the BS HDCP copy protection on the HDMI. I just changed my to a fixed resolution of 1080i and it solved the problem.

Yes, I had similar issues between resolution switches. I believe it is caused by the BS HDCP copy protection on the HDMI. I just changed my to a fixed resolution of 1080i and it solved the problem.

When I first connected my SA8300HDC with an HDMI cable today, I couldn't select an output resolution from the Display Menu. After reading these past couple of posts, I re-checked my Navigator settings, and for some reason, can now select resolutions in the Display Menu (when connected via HDMI). I set mine to fixed 720P, which seems to work best with my Vizio P50HDTV (which is 768p native), and avoids the format switching delay when changing channels.

I haven't seen any difference in picture quality in passing through all the formats from the 8300HDC and letting the Vizio do the resolution switching, or just fixing the 8300HDC output to 720p.

Is Time Warner testing SDV in any markets? In the diag screen of my HD8300HDC w/ Navigator it appears it's not used just yet... in the Raleigh/Durham, NC market.

how would you know if SDV was in use on the diagnostics screen, and how do I get there. the one that use to be with passport for northeatohio (channel 611) now shows nothing. thanks

I called Time Warner about this and they said they don't support HDMI (or DVI) and to use the component cables I was given. I told them that the cable doesn't give as sharp a picture as the HDMI. They said they couldn't help me and that is the way the box works.

Ask them to show you in writing where they do not support HDMI. I suspect it is a great way to get you(the customer) off the phone. I specifically asked a tech TW sent out to my place. He looked at me like I was a dumbsh#@ and said it's suppported.

AT&T is also rolling out HD services but they are not in my area. Otherwise I would be cancelling with TW immediately. You can try them too. Sadly, DirectTV is not an option for me. Waiting for the black screen while changing channels is rediculous. The box is also sluggish when deleting recorded programs or making changes to existing series recordings. I am seriously considering getting rid of all my cable services. I have a dozen other things that are far worse happening to me. This isn't worth the frustration.

I am curious--do you have one of the Passport DVR's? I have the brand new OCAP DVR"S that I just got last week. On these, if you are using HDMI or DVI and you go into output resolution, it says you CANNOT (they use caps to emphasize) change the resolution. If you have the OCAP DVR, how did you do it?

I am curious--do you have one of the Passport DVR's? I have the brand new OCAP DVR"S that I just got last week. On these, if you are using HDMI or DVI and you go into output resolution, it says you CANNOT (they use caps to emphasize) change the resolution. If you have the OCAP DVR, how did you do it?

I have the new 8300HDC with Mystro Navigator (OCAP) and when I first connected the HDMI cable, I also got the "cannont change resolution" message. Later the same day, after turning everything off and on again, I was (and am still able) to select Output Resolutions, just as you can with component cables. I also have two Passport 8300HDs, so I know the differences between the two systems. Passport is better in almost every way.

As for long waits to "switch resolutions," I see this as being very dependant on the exact display you use. In last years 40" HD LCDs I know for a fact that a Sony XBR will take 2-3 times longer than a similar Samsung (XBR1 to 92 series).

I have the new 8300HDC with Mystro Navigator (OCAP) and when I first connected the HDMI cable, I also got the "cannont change resolution" message. Later the same day, after turning everything off and on again, I was (and am still able) to select Output Resolutions, just as you can with component cables. I also have two Passport 8300HDs, so I know the differences between the two systems. Passport is better in almost every way.

I am on my third Mystro DVR in 3 weeks. The first 2 stopped recording after 2 days. So far the one I have now is OK in that respect. I have a feeling you are lucky. I have rebooted, turned off the box and pressed buttons on the front as Scientific Atlanta told me. Nothing has worked. Is there something special you did besides just turning the box on and off?

I am on my third Mystro DVR in 3 weeks. The first 2 stopped recording after 2 days. So far the one I have now is OK in that respect. I have a feeling you are lucky. I have rebooted, turned off the box and pressed buttons on the front as Scientific Atlanta told me. Nothing has worked. Is there something special you did besides just turning the box on and off?

I don't have a DVR but will in about a week. Is there a chance that it could still be Passport? What I do with my non-DVR box is unplug it, wait for about 3-5 minutes and than plug it back in. That seems to fix a lot of problems.

Sounds like you have two bad omens with two MDN DVR's. Did you install them through a self-install or were they installed by a TWC tech? Maybe your resolution settings got messed up. When you said it stopped recording, what error messages if any do you get on the screen? Does the conflict resolution manager say anything about not being able to record?

Jack

PS. It also sounds like more people are having trouble with HD DVR's than SD DVR's. I still have an SD TV because TMC doesn't offer enough channels in my area to go to HDTV yet.

I don't have a DVR but will in about a week. Is there a chance that it could still be Passport? What I do with my non-DVR box is unplug it, wait for about 3-5 minutes and than plug it back in. That seems to fix a lot of problems.

Sounds like you have two bad Omens with two MDN DVR's. Did you install them through a self-install or were they installed by a TWC tech? Maybe your resolution settings got messed up. When you said it stopped recording, what error messages if any do you get on the screen? Does the conflict resolution manager say anything about not being able to record?

Jack

PS. It also sounds like more people are having trouble with HD DVR's than SD DVR's. I still have an SD TV because TMC doesn't offer enough channels in my area to go to HDTV yet.

I don't know what they are doing in Milwaukee but here in NYC TW won't give you a Passport box anymore. Take the new one if that is all they ahve. Maybe you will luck out.

I posted this very same messege on AVS Forum TWC thread for SoCal customers, but here it goes:

I think a saw a sign on something to come TWC'S SoCal site:

http://www.timewarnercable.com/SoCal...atorintro.html

It looks like Navigator will be coming to us sooner than we thought!

I posted this very same messege on AVS Forum TWC thread for SoCal customers, but here it goes:

I think a saw a sign on something to come TWC'S SoCal site:

http://www.timewarnercable.com/SoCal...atorintro.html

It looks like Navigator will be coming to us sooner than we thought!The link that you posted is incorrect.

I posted this very same messege on AVS Forum TWC thread for SoCal customers, but here it goes:

I think a saw a sign on something to come TWC'S SoCal site:

http://www.timewarnercable.com/SoCal...atorintro.html

It looks like Navigator will be coming to us sooner than we thought!

Is SoCal currently SARA or Passport?

xnappo

Well, I give, I am taking my 8300HDC (Navigator) back to TWC in Raleigh and canceling service. I have a Directv install scheduled a few weeks out, and will see how that goes.

This DVR is horrible, and I feel for anyone else getting one. Recordings are sporadic, sometimes saying channel not available in the log. It sometimes just quits recording about 50 minutes into a program, and God forbid you try to watch a program while it is recording it, most of the time is just stops recording with no warning. If you change channels while recording, it stops the recording and changes channel, no warning.

No manual recording, search is awful, can't switch tuners without using PIP, the buffer almost never works, it seems to start only when you are watching a channel, if you are watching a recording, it does not buffer the live channels in the background, sometimes pause does not work when you are watching live TV, what a mess. I end up rebooting it every few days. I miss my Tivo :-)

Is SoCal currently SARA or Passport?

xnappo

Passport. Got the Navigator flyer in the mail about April, but no signs I have seen on the web pages that Navigator is imminent. I would suspect earliest about the end of the year from what I have seen.
Dan

Well, I give, I am taking my 8300HDC (Navigator) back to TWC in Raleigh and canceling service. I have a Directv install scheduled a few weeks out, and will see how that goes.

This DVR is horrible, and I feel for anyone else getting one. Recordings are sporadic, sometimes saying channel not available in the log. It sometimes just quits recording about 50 minutes into a program, and God forbid you try to watch a program while it is recording it, most of the time is just stops recording with no warning. If you change channels while recording, it stops the recording and changes channel, no warning.

No manual recording, search is awful, can't switch tuners without using PIP, the buffer almost never works, it seems to start only when you are watching a channel, if you are watching a recording, it does not buffer the live channels in the background, sometimes pause does not work when you are watching live TV, what a mess. I end up rebooting it every few days. I miss my Tivo :-)

FWIW, TWC is rolling out HDC boxes in NY and I see complaints such as yours here as well. Sounds EXACTLY like the issues in Lincoln, NB, where customers actually forced a town meeting or something akin to get TWC to publicly talk about the fact they were not even close to ready to deploy Navigator. Looks the same here; I'm VERY concerned that when they push this pile of crap to us 8300HD folks, we will end up in the same boat (possibly worse as I understand there are 2 versions, one of the larger memory footprint of the HDC and a different version for the more limited RAM HD boxes).

My issue is that at this point, there really are NO options. I can't do OTA, satellite if iffy (the only way to tell is to install a dish, but I have NO idea if the new bird Direct just launched is positoned where I have a view, I KNOW their old bird is between two tall buildings so even then it's chancy). AND FIOS TV is probably a few years away (this will be the first legit option to TWC total monopoly in most of my city).

You know,

This might be a crazy idea, especially for any of you with an HD DVR box, which seems to be the most problematic. But I was wondering if any of you considered what might be a temporary fix. That is, going to a temporary SD DVR even if you have an HD set? I know, it sucks that in this case, you won't have HD. But I was thinking along the lines that the SD Navigated boxes might be a LITTLE more reliable than the HD boxes because they have been in the field longer?

This tells me that Navigator isn't ready for HD boxes yet. Well, in actually, Navigator isn't ready yet, but that seems to be the crux of this thread. Than in six months, when HOPEFULLY these main bugs are worked out, than go back to an HD box if you have an HD set.

From a reference perspective, are we talking about "Navigated" SA HD boxes/DVR's or Motorola "Navigated" HD boxes/DVR's or both models with these problems?

Jack

You know,

This might be a crazy idea, especially for any of you with an HD DVR box, which seems to be the most problematic. But I was wondering if any of you considered what might be a temporary fix. That is, going to a temporary SD DVR even if you have an HD set? I know, it sucks that in this case, you won't have HD. But I was thinking along the lines that the SD Navigated boxes might be a LITTLE more reliable than the HD boxes because they have been in the field longer?

This tells me that Navigator isn't ready for HD boxes yet. Well, in actually, Navigator isn't ready yet, but that seems to be the crux of this thread. Than in six months, when HOPEFULLY these main bugs are worked out, than go back to an HD box if you have an HD set.

From a reference perspective, are we talking about "Navigated" SA HD boxes/DVR's or Motorola "Navigated" HD boxes/DVR's or both models with these problems?

JackFrom what I read and understand, these problems are not limited at all to the HD models. The issues really relate to application memory in the box - and video memory, which would relate to HD imaging, is different (at least according to SA specs).

FWIW, TWC is rolling out HDC boxes in NY and I see complaints such as yours here as well. Sounds EXACTLY like the issues in Lincoln, NB, where customers actually forced a town meeting or something akin to get TWC to publicly talk about the fact they were not even close to ready to deploy Navigator. Looks the same here; I'm VERY concerned that when they push this pile of crap to us 8300HD folks, we will end up in the same boat (possibly worse as I understand there are 2 versions, one of the larger memory footprint of the HDC and a different version for the more limited RAM HD boxes).

My issue is that at this point, there really are NO options. I can't do OTA, satellite if iffy (the only way to tell is to install a dish, but I have NO idea if the new bird Direct just launched is positoned where I have a view, I KNOW their old bird is between two tall buildings so even then it's chancy). AND FIOS TV is probably a few years away (this will be the first legit option to TWC total monopoly in most of my city).Perhaps some NYC people should take a page from the Lincoln experience book and try to make some sort of preemptive strike through the local franchising agency. It continues to be clear that this thing is NOT headed in the right direction. This must be particularly frustrating for you Passport guys to see this train wreck coming, knowing that Aptiv has the features available that TWC claims that they "need".

Is SoCal currently SARA or Passport?

xnappo

SoCal TWC has an SA headend in orange county and Motorola every where else, as they were aquired from the Adelphia and Comcast deals.

SoCal TWC has an SA headend in orange county and Motorola every where else, as they were acquired from the Adelphia and Comcast deals.

See,

That is one of the problems. TWC is trying to consolidate the Navigator software on all of these different makes of boxes and DVR's. I even heard that the Motorola boxes were not even being deported to some markets because the test labs found them too buggy. I think someone even mentioned that earlier in this thread. They SHOULD be doing this Navigator upgrade on an individualized box model basis ONLY, and stop trying to bunch this new guide on every A, B, C, and D type of box! There is no communication, or at least effective communication from the heads-up that trickles down and says:

"OK, SA boxes have been around for a long time so we are going to do those boxes. (and only those boxes first) with a representative sample from each population of SA box renters. Than we will ask them to evaluate Navigator over a 6 month period. The remaining populations who are grandfather claused stay with Passport and we will even provide the updates to Passport if the legacy box renters are happy with that."

Continuing what TWC should be doing:

"OK, six months have gone by now let's take what worked and learn what didn't work for customers from our representative sample of SA Navigator box renters. Let's fix what didn't work the first time and than do an experimental roll-out with a representative sample of Motorola boxes."

In other words, they keep repeating the testing and trial process with Navigator through six month intervals and customer feedback until EACH box model has the customer satisfaction green light. Those legacy boxes with not enough memory to run Navigator should not even be touched with it for a good year. (At least not until the newer DVR and non-DVR boxes run correctly.) Than you repeat the representative trial sample with Navigator using the software code for less memory for another six months on the older legacy boxes. If those six month trials don't work in any instance and customers aren't happy, TWC should provide them with the option to go back to the Passport software. I mean, it's not like they don't have the money to do that!

TWC is releasing this software too fast on too many different types of boxes without testing the results first. It appears that the Lincoln Nebraska issues have not been learned by all TWC divisions.

Jack

My issue is that at this point, there really are NO options. I can't do OTA, satellite if iffy (the only way to tell is to install a dish, but I have NO idea if the new bird Direct just launched is positoned where I have a view, I KNOW their old bird is between two tall buildings so even then it's chancy). AND FIOS TV is probably a few years away (this will be the first legit option to TWC total monopoly in most of my city).

I sorta have the same issues with Directv. I can get the 101 sat (where all the main programming is) just fine, but cannot get some of the HD programming that is on the 119 sat (trees, many, many trees). The new sat is going to be at 103, and the one they launch next year is going to be at 99. My HD locals are at 103 right now, so I think I will be good. I have heard stories that some installers will not install the new dish unless they see the 119 sat, so I might have a problem. We will see. Install is set for Sept 15 (they are way behind because of the new HD content they are launching.

I first posted this on the 8300HD v. 8300HDC thread, but this is more appropriate for discussion here.
Has anyone noticed the Navigator guide that is on the 8300HDC has much less functionality than the Passport guide on the 8300HD? For example, the Navigator guide has done away with the ability to record a show at a specific air time. That means you are always required to record the new showing or new and repeats, which is a major pain in my opinion because now you can't have the DVR record only the later showing.
Another change for the worse IMO with the 8300HDC is that when you are watching a program recorded on the DVR, the HDC for some reason stops recording the live show you are watching. After speaking with a Time Warner technician, I was told that this cannot be changed. What is the point of having the second tuner? I suppose you can get around this problem by always making sure to press the record button before you go to watch something from your recorded list, but it seems like a pain to me. There are other annoyances with the Navigator guide that seem to make the "upgrade" to the 8300HDC not worth it.

I've been really happy with the 8300HD, and Passport, since moving to this area a couple of years ago, but the array of negative comments about Navigator functionality on TWC has convinced me it's time to step up my consideration of Dish Network or Direct TV as alternatives.

Dish finally has the local HDs available to my area, and it looks like Direct TV will provide them as early as September, so that will no longer be a stopper for me.

Also, the satellites will have National Geographic and Food Network HD channels available, along with an array of others I don't get on TWC, so I will be able to watch Giada and Dog Whisperer in HD, at last. My life will be complete. I haven't seen any indication that TWC plans to provide any new HD channels in the near future.

Now, if I can just make some sense of the array of options among them, I can settle the cost aspect, and maybe make my move.

My issue is that at this point, there really are NO options. I can't do OTA, satellite if iffy (the only way to tell is to install a dish, but I have NO idea if the new bird Direct just launched is positoned where I have a view, I KNOW their old bird is between two tall buildings so even then it's chancy). AND FIOS TV is probably a few years away (this will be the first legit option to TWC total monopoly in most of my city).

Riverside_Guy,

Have you thought about getting a TiVo HD? They are less than $300 right now.

I am in Charlotte, NC and am making the switch to TWC this week because my new house does not have a line of sight for satellite. TWC is giving out Navigator boxes here and I am seriously considering getting a TiVo HD box. There are only 2 reasons why I might get a Navigator box: #1 Since I am switching from satellite I can get the Navigator box for $5 per month for one year and #2 because the TiVo HD cannot tune SDV channels and we are supposed to get SDV here later this year or early next year.

All these horror stories, however, are making me seriously consider getting a TiVo HD.

Moral of the story: I should make sure I have a southern view of the sky before I buy my next house!

Well,

I may have some cautiously optimistic news. That is, Navigator HAS been out in Milwaukee Wisconsin for 7 months now. (along with Lincoln Nebraska, Milwaukee WI was one of the test cities for the roll-out.) When my family and friends call, they are getting through with almost no hold time and my division seems to be "friendly." In January-February we had HUGE hold times of 20 minutes to a half hour. (You could leave a number and have them call you back rather than wait on hold.) I would assume that 60% or more of those calls being taken were about the new Navigator Guide's problems. The reports are that here in Milwaukee, we had less issues with the roll out compared to other cities. Since people are getting through right away in our division, I don't know if I can just infer that the problems with Navigator have been worked out. But it seems that if Navigator was still such a catastrophic train wreck that no one could get through to their local office. Like I said, I am hoping for the best. It's been over 6 months, actually close to 8 since Navigator was first introduced and negativity about it based on what is happening at our local call center seems to have decreased.

I think what that means is we have been through the main bug hurdles in Milwaukee, but other states may be doing the Lincoln Nebraska blind "new and cool" roll out approach. (i.e Parts of New York and North Carolina) I think how well Navigator "behaves" when it is rolled out to your area will be contingent on four factors:

1.) The amount of pre-testing before roll out to an area. Some division managers are waiting to work out the bugs and I heard will not deploy Navigator to their divisions until 1st-2nd quarter 2008. My guess is that it would be these divisions who haven't gone through the testing phases yet.

2.) How well your local TWC office management cares about it's customers. Let's face it, some TWC divisions have better PR management and information systems than others to convey and relay communications and work out solutions to problems.

3.) How often is the head-end technology updated in an area services by TWC to deal with the new boxes? Some cities are just not as technologically ready as others. Just as some smaller TV stations aren't ready to convert to HD, whereas others did a long time ago because they have the technology and resources available to do so.

4.) The attitude of your local TWC President and local office managers about the roll out. From what I have read and heard, 50% want this guide released ASAP (These will be the problem areas most likely) The other 50% want to wait until the bugs have been worked out with Navigator or they have done the experimental testing and know what to expect.

For better or worse: What you get with Navigator is going to depend on these conditions. I should have a new DVR on Tuesday and will keep you guys posted.

Jack

I am lost as to why Navigator is so buggy and crappy here in Raleigh. Shouldn't it be as stable as the other areas that have had it for months? I mean they are not developing a version for every area are they?

I left mine hooked up this weekend, will take it in Monday and cancel TWC, but I love Hogan's Heroes in HD :-). Of course the DVR only recorded one episode today. The episode that comes on immediately after the one it recorded says not recorded because the channel was not available :-(

It really is way to unstable to use at this point.

I am lost as to why Navigator is so buggy and crappy here in Raleigh. Shouldn't it be as stable as the other areas that have had it for months? I mean they are not developing a version for every area are they?

I left mine hooked up this weekend, will take it in Monday and cancel TWC, but I love Hogan's Heroes in HD :-). Of course the DVR only recorded one episode today. The episode that comes on immediately after the one it recorded says not recorded because the channel was not available :-(

It really is way to unstable to use at this point.

We still have that same problem with recording shows on the same channel back to back here in Lincoln. It doesn't happen every time but it happens quite often and for some reason only on certain channels or at least that is what I can tell. I think the anger has subsided here in Lincoln for a couple of reasons. People have learned to live with it or left TWC or the fact that it is summer time and not as much TV watching goes on has decreased the amount of chances for this junk software to mess up. I wouldn't be surprised to see the complaints increase again when the fall lineups start again and people start using their DVRs more.

Navigator is better than it was since its initial roll out almost a year ago but it is nowhere near ready for prime time yet IMO. I know this sounds bad and I apologize in advance to all of you but I hope they do try to roll it out nationally, maybe the amount of uproar will be big enough then to get something changed.

If I had other options available I would seriously be looking into Dish or DirecTV.

I've had a new SA8300HDC OCAP/Navigator box for two weeks now. I upgraded from an SA8300 Passport to get HD programming. I am not happy with the SA8300HDC for reasons I will list below. I am looking for some information which will help me decide whether to keep it or dump it for a Passport unit. I'm on Time Warner San Diego.

SA8300HDC problems:
No keyword search in program descriptions
No series priority without deleting/adding
Can't set series to "save until I delete" until they are recorded or are scheduled
No buffering of live tv while watching a DVR recording
No skip back when resuming a recording after ff through commercials
Can't specify channel for series recordings
Can't specify timeslot for series recordings
Won't record two shows with the same name through series recordings if they air back to back - even if I set series to record every show. Only records the first one.

Furthermore, in the two weeks I have had it it has had the following DVR recording errors:
Recorded one show with no sound
Stopped recording three shows before the shows were over (scheduled series recordings, different shows). Meaning, when I watched the show the recording stopped well before the end of the show. I may have stumbled on the reason for this yesterday. I came home and put the tv on, the DVR was currently recording a show for me. I did not want to see the middle of that show, so I changed the channel. The new channel comes up, but the picture is frozen. I change to another channel and it plays as normal, but the recording light has gone off. I check the DVR and it has stopped recording my show, but the show is still on.

So, I am hoping to exchange it for an SA8300HD Passport, but I am hoping to get answers to these questions first.

Even if I get an SA8300HD in San Diego, how long, realistically, before they force Navigator software onto it?

Is the SDV issue with Passport (not supporting it) going to be an issue in San Diego soon?

Are there any issues with SA8300HD Passport I should know about before I switch to it (I had an SA8300 Passport and loved it)?

Does the SA8300HD have HDMI and optical audio outputs (two features of the SA8300HDC that I like)?

Thanks,

Steve

I've had a new SA8300HDC OCAP/Navigator box for two weeks now. I upgraded from an SA8300 Passport to get HD programming. I am not happy with the SA8300HDC for reasons I will list below. I am looking for some information which will help me decide whether to keep it or dump it for a Passport unit. I'm on Time Warner San Diego.

SA8300HDC problems:
No keyword search in program descriptions
No series priority without deleting/adding
Can't set series to "save until I delete" until they are recorded or are scheduled
No buffering of live tv while watching a DVR recording
No skip back when resuming a recording after ff through commercials
Can't specify channel for series recordings
Can't specify timeslot for series recordings
Won't record two shows with the same name through series recordings if they air back to back - even if I set series to record every show. Only records the first one.

Furthermore, in the two weeks I have had it it has had the following DVR recording errors:
Recorded one show with no sound
Stopped recording three shows before the shows were over (scheduled series recordings, different shows). Meaning, when I watched the show the recording stopped well before the end of the show. I may have stumbled on the reason for this yesterday. I came home and put the tv on, the DVR was currently recording a show for me. I did not want to see the middle of that show, so I changed the channel. The new channel comes up, but the picture is frozen. I change to another channel and it plays as normal, but the recording light has gone off. I check the DVR and it has stopped recording my show, but the show is still on.

So, I am hoping to exchange it for an SA8300HD Passport, but I am hoping to get answers to these questions first.

Even if I get an SA8300HD in San Diego, how long, realistically, before they force Navigator software onto it?

Is the SDV issue with Passport (not supporting it) going to be an issue in San Diego soon?

Are there any issues with SA8300HD Passport I should know about before I switch to it (I had an SA8300 Passport and loved it)?

Does the SA8300HD have HDMI and optical audio outputs (two features of the SA8300HDC that I like)?

Thanks,

SteveI don't know the answers to your first 3 questions, but the answer to the last question is yes the SA8300HD does have HDMI and optical audio. I haven't seen any posts from people complaining about going from a SA8300 to a SA8300HD. If you can get a SA8300HD with Passport, I think you would be happier with that. There is not much you can do if they force Navigator on you except change providers. Since your cable system uses Passort, I think they will switch to Navigator before they start using SDV for a lot of channels.

Steve,

An additional comment: Because of the FCC "Integrated Security Ban" that took place 7/1/07, your cable company cannot provide you with a NEW cable box that does not have the CableCard. However, they can legally give you an older box that has been turned in. They may not have many of these around, but a used (previously deployed) box is the only way that they can legally give you a SA8300HD.

PS: From a hardware standpoint the HD and HDC are functionally identical (except for a somewhat larger application memory). As I have said before, because of the cablecard, different software is required for the HDC. TW could have paid Aptiv to provide a version of Passport to do that, but they have chosen not to.

I don't know the answers to your first 3 questions, but the answer to the last question is yes the SA8300HD does have HDMI and optical audio. I haven't seen any posts from people complaining about going from a SA8300 to a SA8300HD. If you can get a SA8300HD with Passport, I think you would be happier with that. There is not much you can do if they force Navigator on you except change providers. Since your cable system uses Passport, I think they will switch to Navigator before they start using SDV for a lot of channels.

Hmmm... this is interesting. Charlotte is a Passport system so will all current 8300s have to be converted to Navigator before SDV is rolled out here?

If that is the case, then I will definitely get a TiVo HD because my guess is that it will take year to convert all the boxes to Navigator.

I hope the bigwigs at Time Warner bought some Tivo stock, because it sure seems like Navigator will breathe new life into Tivo HD.

-barry

Hmmm... this is interesting. Charlotte is a Passport system so will all current 8300s have to be converted to Navigator before SDV is rolled out here?

If that is the case, then I will definitely get a TiVo HD because my guess is that it will take year to convert all the boxes to Navigator.There may be some initial testing of SDV with Passport boxes still on the system but I don't think they would roll out SDV if no one can access the channels. The conversion to Navigator could happen overnight since it is downloaded by the cable company whenever they want to do it. Navigator can run on the SA 8300 HD boxes, it doesn't have to be only on the SA 8300 HDC, the cable box DVR version. The SA 8300 HDC does have more memory though.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the complaints increase again when the fall lineups start again and people start using their DVRs more.

I hope TWC understands that their service will get a big test this weekend. First Husker football game; no doubt lots of fans will be setting their DVRs before they leave for the stadium so they can watch the game later to see if they're on TV.

(As I recall, TWC Lincoln has messed up game day telecasts other years, for non-Navigator reasons, and if memory serves me right, Husker football fans aren't always forgiving of that particular sin.)

:)

Well, I give, I am taking my 8300HDC (Navigator) back to TWC in Raleigh and canceling service. I have a Directv install scheduled a few weeks out, and will see how that goes.

This DVR is horrible, and I feel for anyone else getting one. Recordings are sporadic, sometimes saying channel not available in the log. It sometimes just quits recording about 50 minutes into a program, and God forbid you try to watch a program while it is recording it, most of the time is just stops recording with no warning. If you change channels while recording, it stops the recording and changes channel, no warning.

No manual recording, search is awful, can't switch tuners without using PIP, the buffer almost never works, it seems to start only when you are watching a channel, if you are watching a recording, it does not buffer the live channels in the background, sometimes pause does not work when you are watching live TV, what a mess. I end up rebooting it every few days. I miss my Tivo :-)

I took me 3 trys but I finally got a box that is working fine (except for my resolution/channel changing problem). It records fine (the first 2 stopped recording after 2 days) and even seems to be little faster on the TV Guide menu. It is no where near as good as the Passport boxes but I can deal with it except for, again, the resolution problem. Just keep taking them back. I know it is a pain but you will get a good one eventually.

I hope TWC understands that their service will get a big test this weekend. First Husker football game; no doubt lots of fans will be setting their DVRs before they leave for the stadium so they can watch the game later to see if they're on TV.

(As I recall, TWC Lincoln has messed up game day telecasts other years, for non-Navigator reasons, and if memory serves me right, Husker football fans aren't always forgiving of that particular sin.)

:)

Anything happening with the advisory board or did that stuff kind of get brushed away by TW or the city council. Haven't seen anything in the paper about it for a while. Like I said, and it is just my guess, I bet things heat up again here in the next few weeks for TWC in Lincoln. They have fixed nothing since May and some features seem to be worse. In fact it was after the May update that I started having all the problems with back to back recordings on the same channel. I only remember 2 updates since May and while they say they added some features (nothing I use or that is noticeable) it seems they haven't really addressed any of the existing problems in a way that fixes them.

Another question for the board. Why is that Lincoln has had so many more problems with this than say KC or Milwaukee? It sounds like KC didn't get the complete rollout (every box) that Lincoln had, is the same true for Milwaukee? Is the customer service just better in those places?

Update. Yesterday, I exchanged my SA8300HDC for an SA8300HD, so I have Passport back. I thought I might have to jump through some hoops for this, but the customer service rep was quite helpful. It is a previously deployed box.

Before I left TW, I inquired if there was a way for me to provide feedback on Navigator. Although I had described the issues to the CSR, she had not done anything with the info (except be a sympathetic ear). After I asked, she offered to put some comments on my file in the computer, so I gave her the recording error issues again. I'm not sure if that information will go anywhere beyond my file though.

Perhaps some NYC people should take a page from the Lincoln experience book and try to make some sort of preemptive strike through the local franchising agency. It continues to be clear that this thing is NOT headed in the right direction. This must be particularly frustrating for you Passport guys to see this train wreck coming, knowing that Aptiv has the features available that TWC claims that they "need".

Indeed you are 100% correct... I have filed complaints about them with the state PSC in the past and the appropriate city agency more recently. Frankly, I'm not so sure "preemptive before it happens" might resonate... I have always gotten the feeling that ""complaints" need to be of a "currently happening to me" nature.

In my market, we "know" they are handing out ONLY 8300HDC's running Navigator... and that folks who are stuck with this are furious about the most basic stuff (uh, recording something) can't be accomplished. But I am not really comfortable filing a complaint about what someone else posted in a public forum... still, I have been planning to file a grievance about why some people in my city get more HD AND pay less than most of the other folks do.

I sorta have the same issues with Directv. I can get the 101 sat (where all the main programming is) just fine, but cannot get some of the HD programming that is on the 119 sat (trees, many, many trees). The new sat is going to be at 103, and the one they launch next year is going to be at 99. My HD locals are at 103 right now, so I think I will be good. I have heard stories that some installers will not install the new dish unless they see the 119 sat, so I might have a problem. We will see. Install is set for Sept 15 (they are way behind because of the new HD content they are launching.

Those numbers don't correspond to anything that tells me what my line of sight might need to be. I went running around asking and asking for such data, but nobody seemed to have it until someone said 230 degrees, 30 degrees above the horizon. I had also inquired about multiple birds, but you're the first post I've seen that spells out multiple satellites needing to all be accessible to get the ALL the services you are paying for.

Riverside_Guy,

Have you thought about getting a TiVo HD? They are less than $300 right now.

I am in Charlotte, NC and am making the switch to TWC this week because my new house does not have a line of sight for satellite. TWC is giving out Navigator boxes here and I am seriously considering getting a TiVo HD box. There are only 2 reasons why I might get a Navigator box: #1 Since I am switching from satellite I can get the Navigator box for $5 per month for one year and #2 because the TiVo HD cannot tune SDV channels and we are supposed to get SDV here later this year or early next year.

All these horror stories, however, are making me seriously consider getting a TiVo HD.

Moral of the story: I should make sure I have a southern view of the sky before I buy my next house!

While 300 is far, far better than 800, I am very uncomfortable about the 9/month fee as it's a 3 year lock in with a 200 buck cancellation fee. Plus, having managed money for over 30 years for the corps I've worked for means I do a depreciation schedule on the up front hardware costs. So even at 300 bucks, it's a lot more expensive than the TWC option.

Still, even if the dollars were close, TiVo would be a no go... it doesn't handle SDV and I fully expect TWC will be transitioning channels to that method... and pretty soon as my market is one of the biggest, yet we have the smallest number of HD channels compared to almost anyone else (cities over x number of citizens).

I hope the bigwigs at Time Warner bought some Tivo stock, because it sure seems like Navigator will breathe new life into Tivo HD.

-barry

Actually, it's just the opposite. Navigator on Passport systems means SDV is available (SARA supports it now although I don't know if they are DOING SDV is all SARA markets). There's every reason to believe that SDV means the ability to deliver more HD. TiVo does NOT do SDV.

To be fair, there is TALK about a 100 dollar device that could mean that a TiVo would be able to do 2-way and SDV/OCAP. Still between this possible device and SDV, we have NO IDEA about the timing of anything.

My 8300HD/Passport has one major show-stopping bug that will not get fixed but also does pretty much all I would want it to do, even in a not so elegant fashion. As they are hading out 8300HDC boxes w/Navigator, everything would be a major step backwards from what I currently have. The REALLY scary thing is when they start pushing a different version of Navigator to my 8300HD. Great that I then SHOULD be able to get SDV, but not being able to actually record anything in any fashion near to what I do now creates a very angry customer (me).

Update. Yesterday, I exchanged my SA8300HDC for an SA8300HD, so I have Passport back. I thought I might have to jump through some hoops for this, but the customer service rep was quite helpful. It is a previously deployed box.

Good for you! In my city, it seems they will NOT do this... even though it's perfectly legal to do so (the 7/1/07 FCC mandate about integrated security applies only to NEW boxes being handed out).

Good for you! In my city, it seems they will NOT do this... even though it's perfectly legal to do so (the 7/1/07 FCC mandate about integrated security applies only to NEW boxes being handed out).I suspect that it is more an issue of "luck" in finding a previously deployed box at a service center, than policy. But the downside in getting such a "used" box is that it may well have some performance "issues" from the previous owner - so one needs an additional layer of luck (first to find a 8300HD, then to find one that does not have problems). :rolleyes:

GUESS WHAT GUYS?

I got my new DVR with..............PASSPORT ON IT!!!! Not sure if Caller ID can be activated on it, but I said that if they can't do it, don't change the box. I said, I don't want Navigator!

Jack

Look out with Time Warner Kansas City. I'm in Lenexa, KS and was hoping to avoid the Navigator software but came home today and it had loaded onto the 8300HD. I was willing to give it the benefit of the doubt until I saw that we lost all the recorded shows and every show in the series manager had disappeared. It was a blank slate with nothing on it and nothing scheduled.

All the letters and mailers never said anything about losing the recorded shows. I called customer service and the rep said oh yeah you'll lose all your recordings. It's interesting that in all the mailings filled with useless information they never mentioned that very huge problem with the upgrade that you'd lose everything. Just shove it down the throats of the masses and only a small % of people will complain. Probably makes sense from a business standpoint but at least I've got Everest cable as an option.

Be wary whenever a utility tells you how good an "upgrade" is like they did with Navigator and how much it will improve your life. Translated that really means TWCKC is a bunch of cheap no customer service morons that will ruin a good thing by replacing software that isn't broken but you'll still end up paying them each month.

Well....disaster strikes Kansas City. Navigator rolled out to me tonight in Fairway, KS. I hate it.

1) Lost all DVR content
2) The guide blows, and the fonts look horrible
3) HD picture unstable
4) Non HD picture looks worse
5) When trying to record a series from the guide or even just live TV, a pop-up shows up saying "record option unavailable at this time".

So....let's get this straight. Everything about the upgrade is worse and there is nothing that is better. Thanks TWC. In response, I will be calling AT&T tomorrow and switch to U-verse. Too bad. I really liked Time Warner's service up to now. And then they do this. It's horrible. I just want the old Passport back.

Actually, it's just the opposite. Navigator on Passport systems means SDV is available (SARA supports it now although I don't know if they are DOING SDV is all SARA markets). There's every reason to believe that SDV means the ability to deliver more HD. TiVo does NOT do SDV.

To be fair, there is TALK about a 100 dollar device that could mean that a TiVo would be able to do 2-way and SDV/OCAP. Still between this possible device and SDV, we have NO IDEA about the timing of anything.

My 8300HD/Passport has one major show-stopping bug that will not get fixed but also does pretty much all I would want it to do, even in a not so elegant fashion. As they are hading out 8300HDC boxes w/Navigator, everything would be a major step backwards from what I currently have. The REALLY scary thing is when they start pushing a different version of Navigator to my 8300HD. Great that I then SHOULD be able to get SDV, but not being able to actually record anything in any fashion near to what I do now creates a very angry customer (me).


There are a few reasons not to fear SDV. One is the "device" that you mention. Granted it's pretty unsure, but then so is SDV.

That's reason 2. Nobody seems to have any hard info about when (possibly even if) SDV will be implemented. Presumably TW wants to do it fairly quickly after full Navigator changeover, but quickly can mean different things to a large corporation.

Reason 3 is that I'm unsure exactly what SDV does. Which channels will be "SDVed"? How will a non-SDV box react in an SDV environment. I suspect that these are implementation dependent items.

For me, I currently have two 8300SD boxes, running Passport, and I'm seriously considering switching one of them to Tivo. If SDV merely degrades my channel selection, I can probably plan things so that between the two I can get what I need.

Just the fact that I'm considering buying a Tivo and subscribing to the service for what will probably be a one year stopgap tells you how terrified I am of Navigator. I say one year because I suspect that by late 2008 TW will have an adequate version of Navigator, or Tivo series 4 will be out. So $400-$500 bucks for a year's worth of Navigator insurance. Pretty grim.

-barry

There are a few reasons not to fear SDV. One is the "device" that you mention. Granted it's pretty unsure, but then so is SDV.

That's reason 2. Nobody seems to have any hard info about when (possibly even if) SDV will be implemented. Presumably TW wants to do it fairly quickly after full Navigator changeover, but quickly can mean different things to a large corporation.

-barry

On the Tivo Community forum, there are posts from yesterday that TWC Oceanic (Hawaii) is moving to SDV in one month....Austin TWC users already have SDV...it would appear to be a "When" not "If" question at this point.

http://64.128.14.168/otw/otw_sdv.pdf

There is extremely little doubt that cable will HAVE to move to SDV if they want to compete with HD offerings from sat before the Feb 2009 analog shutoff (they will gain the "local" analog space immediately). And to make SDV really useful, they will have to put enough channels in the SDV pool to get any bandwidth gain. If you follow various developments, there are thoughts to make ALL channels SDV. One report says only 45 channels on a given system are being viewed at any one time and sending only 45 channels down the pike is a no-brainer.

On the Tivo Community forum, there are posts from yesterday that TWC Oceanic (Hawaii) is moving to SDV in one month....Austin TWC users already have SDV...it would appear to be a "When" not "If" question at this point.

http://64.128.14.168/otw/otw_sdv.pdf

Agreed. In TWC goes through the pain of switching you to Navigator I am sure SDV will come soon. Here in Austin, a TIVO is almost useless. Below is a list of the channels and which are SDV(courtesy of David V. in Austin).


Ch. Freq. Station

2 633 KTBC
3 633 KVUE
4 633 KXAN
5 633 KEYE
6 SDV COAC006
7 SDV TVGC
8 675 NEWS8
9 633 KLRU
10 anlg COAC010
11 SDV COAC011
12 633 KNVA
13 SDV KAKW
14 SDV KADFLP
15 SDV METV
16 SDV COAC016
17 SDV GOAC017
18 anlg CSPAN
19 SDV EDAC019
20 SDV KLRU2
21 anlg WGNSAT
22 SDV EDAC022
23 anlg KCWX
24 anlg QVC
25 anlg HSN
26 675 LIFE
27 anlg OXYGEN
28 anlg WE
29 SDV SOAP
30 anlg ETV
31 anlg HGTV
32 663 FOOD
33 SDV TRAV
34 669 DSC
35 anlg TLC
36 anlg ANIMAL
37 anlg FAM
38 anlg ION
39 anlg HALMRK
40 anlg TVLAND
41 anlg NIK
42 633 DISN
43 anlg TOON
44 SDV DWR
45 663 TWC
46 675 CNN
47 anlg CNNH
48 675 FNC
49 anlg MSNBC
50 anlg CNBC
52 675 ESPN
53 669 ESPN2
54 669 FSN
55 anlg GOLF
56 669 LMN
57 anlg COURT
58 669 SCIFI
59 675 COMEDY
60 669 AETV
61 669 HISTORY
62 663 BRAVO
63 663 AMC
64 SDV TCM
65 663 TBS
66 675 USA
67 675 TNT
68 675 FX
69 669 SPIKETV
70 anlg CMT
71 663 VH1
72 anlg MTV
73 anlg BET
74 SDV STYLE
75 anlg TELE
76 SDV GALA
77 SDV LOOR077
99 SDV PIN
101 633 ISN
102 SDV DISNP
103 633 TOOND
110 anlg TOON
111 SDV BOOM
120 anlg NIK
121 645 NIKP
122 645 GAS
125 SDV NIKTON
140 657 DCKIDS
150 657 NOGN
160 anlg FAM
170 anlg ION
169 SDV HDNET
180 anlg HALMRK
201 anlg HGTV
203 657 DISCH
204 621 FLIVING
205 anlg TLC
207 639 DIY
209 663 FOOD
210 675 LIFE
211 639 LRW
213 anlg WE
215 anlg OXYGEN
217 SDV SOAP
219 SDV STYLE
220 657 FITV
225 657 DHC
230 669 DSC
232 387 NGC
234 anlg ANIMAL
236 657 MILI
237 657 SCIENCE
239 591 G4
240 669 AETV
241 SDV AEHD
243 591 BIO
246 669 HISTORY
248 591 HISI
250 657 DTIMES
255 SDV KLRU2
258 SDV TRAV
260 663 BRAVO
261 SDV LIFE
262 639 OVATION
262 SDV OVATION
266 645 SLEUTH
268 621 BBCA
270 anlg QVC
273 anlg HSN
274 SDV TVSS
275 SDV SHOPNBC
277 SDV CSHP
278 SDV MENS2
279 SDV HLC
281 SDV BTYFASH
284 SDV ISHOP
285 SDV JEWEL
286 SDV RANDR
287 SDV AMPREVU
291 645 TBN
292 645 INSP
293 621 ILIFE
295 SDV WORD
297 639 EWTN
308 675 NEWS8
310 675 CNN
312 anlg CNNH
315 675 FNC
320 anlg MSNBC
324 603 TXCN
341 657 CURRENT
348 SDV N8TN
350 663 TWC
355 SDV N8DWR
358 SDV N8NSW
359 SDV N8WEE
360 anlg CNBC
361 591 CNBCWLD
368 645 BLOOM
380 anlg CSPAN
381 645 CSPAN2
382 621 CSPAN3
405 645 ESPNEWS
408 SDV N8NSS
410 675 ESPN
411 669 ESPN2
412 597 ESPNHD
413 SDV ESP2HD
420 657 ESPNCL
430 669 FSS
431 SDV FCSA
432 SDV FCSC
433 SDV FCSP
434 SDV FUEL
435 SDV NBATV
438 SDV CSTV
440 585 FSC
450 anlg GOLF
455 SDV TENNIS
460 SDV SPEED
470 639 VERSUS
490 SDV OUTDOOR
501 663 TBS
504 675 USA
510 675 TNT
511 615 TNTHD
514 615 UNIHD
515 675 FX
518 669 SPIKETV
520 anlg TVLAND
525 645 GSN
527 SDV REAL
530 675 COMEDY
535 669 SCIFI
540 anlg COURT
545 anlg ETV
550 663 AMC
555 SDV TCM
565 669 LMN
570 SDV MTV
571 645 MTV2
572 SDV MHD
575 591 FUSE
577 SDV METV
578 663 VH1
582 627 VH1CL
585 anlg BET
595 657 GAC
609 SDV NEWS8ESP
622 SDV GALA
623 anlg TELE
629 SDV LFC
636 SDV MUN2
637 SDV MTV3
644 SDV DISCE
701 621 HBO
702 621 HBO2
703 621 HBOSIG
704 621 HBOF
705 651 HBOC
706 651 HBOZ
707 621 HBOLAT
708 SDV HBOP
709 SDV HB2P
710 SDV HBOSIGP
711 SDV HBOFP
712 SDV HBOCP
713 SDV HBOZP
714 SDV HBOLATP
730 627 SHOW
731 627 SHOTOO
732 627 SHOCSE
733 627 SHOWX
734 627 SHOWB
735 627 NEXT
736 627 WOMEN
737 627 FAMZ
738 SDV SHOWP
739 SDV SHOTOOP
740 SDV SHOCSEP
741 SDV SHOWXP
742 SDV SHOWBP
743 SDV NEXTP
744 SDV WOMENP
745 SDV FAMZP
1501 579 KTBCDT
1511 573 KVUEDT
1521 585 KXANDT
1531 573 KEYEDT
1541 579 KLRUDT
1542 579 KLRUDT2
1617 387 DHD
1635 597 ESPNHD
1636 SDV ESP2HD
1639 SDV FOXHDSW
1649 SDV MLBHD
1654 615 TNTHD
1656 615 UHD
1660 SDV AETVHD
1664 SDV MTVHD
1670 603 HBOHD
1678 603 SHOWHD
1687 597 INHD
1692 609 HDNET
1693 609 HDNETMV

I suspect that it is more an issue of "luck" in finding a previously deployed box at a service center, than policy. But the downside in getting such a "used" box is that it may well have some performance "issues" from the previous owner - so one needs an additional layer of luck (first to find a 8300HD, then to find one that does not have problems). :rolleyes:

Possible, but the one TWC place I've been to multiple times (23rd street for those familiar with NYC) has literally hundreds and hundreds of 8300HDs lined up against a wall. Apparently, after 7/1 nobody could get those boxes, everyone seems to have gotten a 8300HDC. All those units COULD be given out by TWC... logic tells me they WOULD give those boxes out until they ran out. Given that, I suspect it's policy for them ONLY to give out HDC units... and while it's worse financially, there could be a good business case made FOR that policy.

Of course, this is all based on what I read...trust me I DO apply a bit of skepticism to anything most folks post. So far NOBODY has posted on AVS that they got a 8300HD/Passport box from TWC (after 7/1) in my market.

There are a few reasons not to fear SDV. One is the "device" that you mention. Granted it's pretty unsure, but then so is SDV.

That's reason 2. Nobody seems to have any hard info about when (possibly even if) SDV will be implemented. Presumably TW wants to do it fairly quickly after full Navigator changeover, but quickly can mean different things to a large corporation.

Reason 3 is that I'm unsure exactly what SDV does. Which channels will be "SDVed"? How will a non-SDV box react in an SDV environment. I suspect that these are implementation dependent items.

For me, I currently have two 8300SD boxes, running Passport, and I'm seriously considering switching one of them to Tivo. If SDV merely degrades my channel selection, I can probably plan things so that between the two I can get what I need.

Just the fact that I'm considering buying a Tivo and subscribing to the service for what will probably be a one year stopgap tells you how terrified I am of Navigator. I say one year because I suspect that by late 2008 TW will have an adequate version of Navigator, or Tivo series 4 will be out. So $400-$500 bucks for a year's worth of Navigator insurance. Pretty grim.

-barry

Oh, I have no "fear" of SDV, I 100% think it's TWC ONLY salvation in my market. I believe Dave Hancock has had SDV for more than a year and recall him posting he has no issues with it, so I'm in a way anxious for it to come here.

However, that "feeling" is negated by the fact that the ONLY way I may get SDV is by them wiping my box to install Navigator. And everything I read about it tells me this is pre-alpha development software that many exces should be summarily fired for deploying in production before it even reaches beta status.

I've run the financials on TiVo and it's not at all pretty. The additional monthly expense was so substantial that just having a better guide didn't come close to justifying it. Plus the contract lock in and huge cancellation fee are just too daunting. The new $300 unit promised to alter the financials, but I've read a post that says those units were getting really bad marks, as in big issues with drop-outs and pixellation.

There is extremely little doubt that cable will HAVE to move to SDV if they want to compete with HD offerings from sat before the Feb 2009 analog shutoff (they will gain the "local" analog space immediately). And to make SDV really useful, they will have to put enough channels in the SDV pool to get any bandwidth gain. If you follow various developments, there are thoughts to make ALL channels SDV. One report says only 45 channels on a given system are being viewed at any one time and sending only 45 channels down the pike is a no-brainer.

Dave, could you clarify the part about "the Feb 2009 analog shutoff (they will gain the "local" analog space immediately)." That mandated move affect OTA only. The cable guys are not subject to it. Matter of fact, I've read multiple times about a move to "rule" that the cable guys MUST keep their analog channels cooking...because those service those customers who barely pay for cable service and have 30 year old TVs and no cable boxes AND who are refusing to take the government coupons to get a converter for 20 bucks or so...

Case in point, the TWC NYC system is reputed to have as the most bandwidth of any TWC city (along with 2 or so other markets). Yet we have the fewest number of HD channels (15) of most any current system in large cities. We have something like 70 some odd analog channels clogging the bandwidth... and that probably represents about 150 HD channels.

Possible, but the one TWC place I've been to multiple times (23rd street for those familiar with NYC) has literally hundreds and hundreds of 8300HDs lined up against a wall. Apparently, after 7/1 nobody could get those boxes, everyone seems to have gotten a 8300HDC. All those units COULD be given out by TWC... logic tells me they WOULD give those boxes out until they ran out. Given that, I suspect it's policy for them ONLY to give out HDC units... and while it's worse financially, there could be a good business case made FOR that policy.It all depends - are those hundreds of 8300HDs new or previously deployed? That is key. If new, they are boat anchors (at least to TW NYC - they may be able to sell them to a Canadian cable company). If they are "previously deployed", then they can pass them out. Might be that they (the service center folks) don't know - so they are playing it safe. Of course, these folks are simply following the company line, and TW is not noted for having excellent communications with their CSRs! (or anyone else) :rolleyes:

Agreed. In TWC goes through the pain of switching you to Navigator I am sure SDV will come soon. Here in Austin, a TIVO is almost useless. Below is a list of the channels and which are SDV(courtesy of David V. in Austin).

Holy smokes! That long list sure LOOKS like it's the whole schedule... how many non-SDV channels are there? The pisser here is that if TWC dropped the 70 plus analog channels, we'd have bandwidth for something like 150 HD channels. Which would put the necessity of SDV off for several years.

The scary part is we don't get SDV until we 100% get Navigator. The software that apparently still hasn't figured out how to make an actual recording AND rewards us by wiping our HDs with zero warning from those bastards at TWC.

It all depends - are those hundreds of 8300HDs new or previously deployed? That is key. If new, they are boat anchors (at least to TW NYC - they may be able to sell them to a Canadian cable company). If they are "previously deployed", then they can pass them out. Might be that they (the service center folks) don't know - so they are playing it safe. Of course, these folks are simply following the company line, and TW is not noted for having excellent communications with their CSRs! (or anyone else) :rolleyes:

Good point Dave, the only "clue" I have is that they are all unboxed. When I first got my 8300HD it very much was boxed... indicating a brand new unit.

I DID have a hardware issue and took my unit back to swap. Of course, I put it in the original box, but they refused to accept it that way. I HAD to unbox it myself... the guy told me that indicated it had been used before. I asked about the unboxed unit I got in return and he said it was "refurbished." That I could be assured it worked because it passed hands on test for functionally. All of which COULD be BS, but it did make a kind of sense.

I believe Dave Hancock has had SDV for more than a year and recall him posting he has no issues with it, so I'm in a way anxious for it to come here.True confession time: I remember having that discussion with you last year. I posted my experiences after being convinced by another local poster who was beta testing the TiVo Series 3 and had problems receiving certain stations. He posted (both here, and on a local HDTV thread) that he had discussions with TW and they informed him that this was due to "channels that Cable Cards cannot access due to our switch digital delivery project and the fact they are not 2-way". In January of this year, I had occasion to communicate with the head of the local TW head end. He told me that they had not yet started SDV in Rochester. He stopped communicating with me when I pointed out the posting that had been made.

Since then, the newer update of SARA (1.89.17.1) included diagnostic screens for SDV. I then checked the "supposed" SDV channels and pretty much convinced myself that we did not, in fact, yet have SDV.

I have been watching the SDV situation closely, and have seen statements from others who (think they) have SDV, and it does work OK. But, they may not have it either.

Holy smokes!

Sorry, I wasn't clear. That is the whole channel list with either SDV or the fixed QAM frequency for each channel.

xnappo

I have been watching the SDV situation closely, and have seen statements from others who (think they) have SDV, and it does work OK. But, they may not have it either.

Okay, so I can say first hand that it MOSTLY works okay. For live viewing you pretty much never notice. The time to acquire the frequency is quite acceptable (nothing like In-Demand).

However there are bugs when using the SA8300 with SDV. Sometimes you will get recordings of the wrong channel. It is like there is a default channel assigned to a QAM, and even though the box requests a different channel the correct routing is not performed. This doesn't always happen, and seems to have gotten better with a SARA firmware push we got about 3 weeks ago.

xnappo

On the Tivo Community forum, there are posts from yesterday that TWC Oceanic (Hawaii) is moving to SDV in one month....Austin TWC users already have SDV...it would appear to be a "When" not "If" question at this point.

http://64.128.14.168/otw/otw_sdv.pdf

That pdf about the change is very interesting. It's almost unbelievable that they are handing out STB's to replace 1-way CableCards for no extra charge (for a couple years anyway).

I'm hoping that the Navigator launch here in Columbus continues to be delayed indefinitely. But, most likely, it will come during the November sweeps and I'll lose or fail to record must-see shows. At least for those who are getting it now, during the summer, have a chance to switch providers before the fall season begins if it's not suitable/working properly.

I've been with TWC for 22 years and have always been satisfied. But, this Nagivator mess has me ready to jump ship. I'm a very happy Passport user and all of Navigator's shortcomings are deal breakers to me. But, then again, I've read lots of complaints about satellite problems during stormy weather - and I can't even recall the last time I had a cable outage. Thjere is another cable company option in town (WOW), but they use SARA and I'm not too interested in that either.

The impending Navigator threat has pushed me over the tipping poiint, and I'm now planning to sign up for Dish Satellite in the morning.

Thjere is another cable company option in town (WOW), but they use SARA and I'm not too interested in that either.

Actually, there SARA software is very stable. We have it here in the Time Warner Central New York Division. Granted, it's butt ugly and the search is absolutely worthless. However, it handles SDV and has most of the features Navigator was adding to Passport. IE: Caller ID on TV. I had only three requests to make SARA a viable option. 1) A better, more intuitive GUI 2) A actual search feature (on screen keyboard that searches the entire guide that is downloaded) and 3) Customizable Channel Guide where I can add and delete channels or an "All Sub" option so I only see the channels I get or want to see. TWC has a tendency to bloat the guide by putting the SAME channel in the guide multiple times in different tier.

They do these three things and SARA is a perfectly acceptable option. I noticed some strange goings on here today anyway. My fathers 8300 was in a boot state this morning and mine was on Channel 1 when I turned it on (as if it was rebooted). This is in two different cities, but the same market. I'm wondering if the employees are beta testing Navigator now? Once my reboot complete, everything was back to normal.

I also concur with Rob about Time Warner. I switched over from satellite to take advantage of the Triple Play and have been very impressed with the service thus far. The techs have been helpful and I enjoy the content they are providing, but if this Navigator upgrade is done and causes these problems, then I WILL look at DirecTV.

I think the national Navigator push is beginning to ramp up. Someone in the Time-Warner section on the local San Diego http://hdtv.forsandiego.com forum received an e-mail (apparently signed by Judy Walsh, head of TWCSD ops) announcing the availability of Navigator starting in September.

(I'm hoping that she means September 2008!)

The impending Navigator threat has pushed me over the tipping poiint, and I'm now planning to sign up for Dish Satellite in the morning.

I've done my research on leaving TWC for Dish as well...their VIP722 DVR gets great reviews (and is free for new subs) and I can pick up a brand new VIP622 on ebay for +/- $350 to have two dual tuner HD DVRs. I tried the Tivo HD, but my TWC Raliegh-Durham implementation of Cable Cards is awful, and SDV will only make it worse. My only worry with Dish is them doing a crappy job running cables in my house (which is all RG-6, but only 1000 MHz as opposed to the 2500 Mhz they are supposed to use).

Wish they would leave well enough alone with Passport...which I am quite happy with (I have two Passport 8300HDs and one Navigator 8300HDC).

I've done my research on leaving TWC for Dish as well...their VIP722 DVR gets great reviews (and is free for new subs) and I can pick up a brand new VIP622 on ebay for +/- $350 to have two dual tuner HD DVRs. I tried the Tivo HD, but my TWC Raliegh-Durham implementation of Cable Cards is awful, and SDV will only make it worse. My only worry with Dish is them doing a crappy job running cables in my house (which is all RG-6, but only 1000 MHz as opposed to the 2500 Mhz they are supposed to use).

Wish they would leave well enough alone with Passport...which I am quite happy with (I have two Passport 8300HDs and one Navigator 8300HDC).

That is one of my biggest issue why I will NOT switch to Dish. The required cable is absurd. I saw a house down the road with DishNetwork and it looked like a helicopter flew over and dumped a spool of coax on it! As far as I can tell Dish HD/Super Dish requires at least four coax feeds from the LNB and then at least two to the STB and that's if you only have one STB! I f you have another or a dual tuner, you will need three lines run to the box (two in and one out) I just don't want that many holes drilled in my floor! DirecTV seems to have a better option by dropping the four leads from the LNB to a switchbox so I can use most of my existing wiring. However, each dual tuner still requires a second drop. If you want an OTA antenna for locals then that requires ANOTHER drop. I have heard great things about the Dish DVRs, but I don't like the whole RF/back feeding of cable. I would just prefer a one wire solution and STB at each outlet. I'll have to see what happens once TWC rolls out Navigator here. If I have to, I would probably go with DirecTV. I'll probably research it soon to see what they are offering.

...As far as I can tell Dish HD/Super Dish requires at least four coax feeds from the LNB and then at least two to the STB and that's if you only have one STB! I f you have another or a dual tuner, you will need three lines run to the box (two in and one out) I just don't want that many holes drilled in my floor!

You make a good point, but in my circumstance, I don't have any problem with the cabling. After living over 40 years in homes in California, mostly with slab flooring, I made sure that my new retirement home is wood, with plenty of crawl space underneath, so that I can run RG-6 to my heart's content, and my dish will be mounted on an outside wall, so the cables will not be noticeable. I previously installed 7 runs of RG-6 to the TWC termination, to cover any future TV placement contingiency, and I'm not going to disturb any of them, just in case I decide to switch back later.

I agree with you about holes in the floor - they are nasty, I was aghast when I saw the cable installation in my brother's home prior to our installation, with holes drilled through subflooring and carpet. Yipes! That's why I will install all my own cables within the walls before the installer arrives.

R_G,

I am only talking about the bandwidth allocated to just the local analog channels (ABC, CBS, NBC, etc.). This bandwidth will become available with the analog shutoff in Feb 2009. Depending on location, this can equate to 5-10 or more analog channels. Here we have at least 8 (and possibly as many as 12) that I believe fit the bill. Unless I am missing something, I believe that means we should immediately recoup enough bandwidth for 16-24 new HD channels. But, they won't be waiting until then. As new HD channels become available, there will be pressure to add them and there is no doubt DirecTV will add every one of them. They will continue to move analogs to the digital tier and press on with SDV. The only snag in their plan will be negotiating fair and equal carriage agreements that will allow them to compete with sat in both pricing and channel availability.

EDIT: The Other Dave reminded me that there are discussions at the FCC that would allow cable to downconvert digital channels and continue to provide analog signals for their analog-only customers. I understand the motivation here, but just how long do we continue to chew up bandwidth? Until the last analog TV dies? And again, why only cable? Why is cable required to provide a signal to everyone regardless of how it hinders their ability to compete? Of course, there are those who will say that this actually benefits cable because cable will then be the only source for analog signals that will work with legacy TVs. While this is true, if it impedes cable's ability to compete in the digital/HD arena, I believe they lose more than they gain. Plus, how long before we truly move into the 21st century, for pete's sake?

Ben/Vic,

I'm glad you mentioned the cabling required for sat. That has also been a stumbling block for me as well. My home is wired for cable and I'd hate to see a bunch of new cable running along the base of the house, up the walls, through holes in the stucco, etc., not a pretty sight.

Dave,

I've been doing a little research tonight on the cable requirements, and if I'm interpreting it right, it looks like they can be minimized with the use of DB Plus Separators (Diplexers), based on Dish's data.

Basically, there will be one cable per lnb to the 4x4 switch, two short cables from the switch to the diplexer, and from the diplexer, a single cable per receiver into the house, and into the area of the receiver, then the second diplexer and two short cables from the inside diplexer to the dual channel receiver. The output cable from the receiver to TV2 doesn't go outside, just to wherever TV2 resides. There are drawings for distribution of the TV2 signal cables to support multiple TV's, but I have no need for that anyway. I don't think that's excessive.

I plan to run a full complement of cables, without the diplexers, for the reasons I described in my last post.

Vic,

I guess the question then becomes who supplies all this equipment and how much does it all cost? I really like what I read about the new Dish HD DVR, but I've got to believe that post-OCAP/DCAS, stuff like that will become common-place for cable as well. Seems to me that this kind of technology leapfrogs. Cable releases something, sat releases something better, cable responds, etc. At least that's what I hope the future holds. :)

Dave,

I just noticed you live in AZ. Let me be the first to congratulate you on beating our 1974 record today for days with temps over 110 f., with 29 days.

We spent that fun-filled 1974 in Tempe, AZ. I never felt really uncomfortably hot, though, as it was impossible to raise a sweat, plus I spent all my time in air conditioned facilities. I loved AZ, but my wife couldn't wait to move on.

Vic,

I guess the question then becomes who supplies all this equipment and how much does it all cost? I really like what I read about the new Dish HD DVR, but I've got to believe that post-OCAP/DCAS, stuff like that will become common-place for cable as well. Seems to me that this kind of technology leapfrogs. Cable releases something, sat releases something better, cable responds, etc. At least that's what I hope the future holds. :)

If you are a new sub, Dish charges $49 for the install (if you commit to 18 months of service they waive that charge, among other things) and it includes everything needed - Dish, LNBs, cable runs, and all switches required for a "standard four room installation". My understanding from reading the Dish forums is that as a new sub, you just need make sure that you tell them upfront what you want, and they'll do pretty much everything you ask. I have two HD sets and one SD...they would provide at no charge a VIP722 (which I'd put on one set as a dual tuner DVR), and a VIP222 (HD Dual Tuner), that I'd use as an HD tuner on the other HDTV and backfeed the second tuner to my SD set. I'd plan on buying another DVR on ebay....and replacing the 222 with a VIP622 set up the same way. Dish will only lease you a max of 4 tuners...so 4 single tuner boxes or 2 two tuner boxes...and they'll only lease you one DVR in that mix (so figure the cost of buying if you are like me and want a DVR in three locations).

With the current Dish incentives for an 18 month commitment, I come out $25/month less expensive with Dish over the 18 months (including the cost of buying a 622 DVR @ $350-$400) with the same level of programming as TWC (Digital Tier, HD Tier, HBO, SHO). The core difference is that I currently have 3 dual tuner 8300HD/HDC DVRs, and would end up moving to 2 dual tuner DVRs, with one shared between an HD and SD set...which given the SD set is a bedroom tv that is infrequently used, works out just fine.

Dave,

I just noticed you live in AZ. Let me be the first to congratulate you on beating our 1974 record today for days with temps over 110 f., with 29 days.

We spent that fun-filled 1974 in Tempe, AZ. I never felt really uncomfortably hot, though, as it was impossible to raise a sweat, plus I spent all my time in air conditioned facilities. I loved AZ, but my wife couldn't wait to move on.I was in the Air Force from '66 until '93, so we weren't here in '74. My wife is from Phoenix (I'm from Wisconsin) and I was stationed at Luke from 68-71.

Anyway, we always planned on returning and that's what we did in '94. Being a letter carrier now, the heat hasn't really bothered me until this year and even then only a few days when the radiated heat was oppressive. My daughter lived in Fayettteville for several years, so I'm familar with NC and we really liked it there except for the humidity.

We'd consider moving, but we figure it will be easier to get out of here for much of the summer and then enjoy the other 8 months of nice weather than limiting our alternatives during the winter months somewhere else. There are only so many places you can go during the winter whereas the whole country, especially New England and Canada, is open during the summer. :)

.....................The core difference is that I currently have 3 dual tuner 8300HD/HDC DVRs, and would end up moving to 2 dual tuner DVRs, with one shared between an HD and SD set...which given the SD set is a bedroom tv that is infrequently used, works out just fine.Thanks for the info. I see the price difference is mostly because you are leasing less hardware from Dish than you were from cable, but you are getting more HD content in the mix. It surprises me though that if you were able to lease the same hardware, Dish might actually cost a tad more.

EDIT: The Other Dave reminded me that there are discussions at the FCC that would allow cable to downconvert digital channels and continue to provide analog signals for their analog-only customers.Actually Dave, the FCC is considering regulations that would REQUIRE (not "allow") cable to downconvert digital channels ("dual carry")to analog.
I understand the motivation here, but just how long do we continue to chew up bandwidth? Until the last analog TV dies?Discussions in the past (but not in the current discussions) have tossed around a 2012 date.
And again, why only cable? Why is cable required to provide a signal to everyone regardless of how it hinders their ability to compete?Well the reason is that long ago Congress passed laws that required regulation of cable and that cable must carry local OTA stations such that they are “viewable via cable on all television receivers of a subscriber which are
connected to a cable system by a cable operator or for which a cable operator provides a connection.” (See page 6 of FCC doc below). There is no similar "must-carry" Congressional requirements for satellite.

Regarding, hindering their ability to compete: These requirements only require that of local channels (maybe up to 72MHz of space on cable), not all the "Expanded Basic" channels (420MHz) currently on cable. So to comply with this proposed rulemaking a cable system could dump (in my example) 348 MHz of analog space, providing room for 116 HD channels (at 2 per QAM). Also, it's pretty clear that IF a cable system has somehow (as Comcast in Chicago is doing) actually convert their entire system to digital, then the requirements to make the digital stations "viewable" would be satisfied.

Another, area that they are exploring is that of degrading the HD channels. There is a prohibition of "material degradation", but no definition of that.

While I've provided links below to the FCC Document (as usual, these FCC documents are fairly hard to follow), I've also provided a link to a Multichannel News article on the FCC action.

Multichannel News Article on Proposed Rulemaking (http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6341224.html)

Here is the FCC Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (http://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-07-71A1.pdf)

Dave,

I just noticed you live in AZ. Let me be the first to congratulate you on beating our 1974 record today for days with temps over 110 f., with 29 days.

We spent that fun-filled 1974 in Tempe, AZ. I never felt really uncomfortably hot, though, as it was impossible to raise a sweat, plus I spent all my time in air conditioned facilities. I loved AZ, but my wife couldn't wait to move on.

Yea that is pretty hot. However, here in Raleigh NC we hit 107 a couple of weeks back. The humidity was ridiculous that day also. The heat index was up over 115. It felt like walking in the worlds largest Sauna when you went outside. In fact it rained in the evening that night!

It dropped from 100 to 80 in 40 seconds at 8:00 PM! We were watching the thermometer as a mini tornado raced in front of us. Kind of freaky! The weather has really been unusual here this year.

I have a new 8300hdc dvr that is having problems with series
recordings. It seems to record "new" shows of series that are only
broadcast once a week fine. However, when I want to program only the
first run of a show that appears daily, I can't. I'll select the show
to record in either the daily guide or by search and choose to record
only new shows. However going to the list, the show doesn't appear.

If I select record all shows (new and repeats), this will work but
then of course, I would have to delete all the repeats.

Re-booting a couple of times hasn't helped and of course TW c/s can't
imagine what the problem might be.

I suspect this is a flaw in Navigator rather than a bad box. Has
anyone else experienced this, much less solved the problem.

Thanks,
Ron

I have a new 8300hdc dvr that is having problems with series
recordings. It seems to record "new" shows of series that are only
broadcast once a week fine. However, when I want to program only the
first run of a show that appears daily, I can't. I'll select the show
to record in either the daily guide or by search and choose to record
only new shows. However going to the list, the show doesn't appear.

If I select record all shows (new and repeats), this will work but
then of course, I would have to delete all the repeats.

Re-booting a couple of times hasn't helped and of course TW c/s can't
imagine what the problem might be.

I suspect this is a flaw in Navigator rather than a bad box. Has
anyone else experienced this, much less solved the problem.

Thanks,
Ron

I can record series for Daily Show and Colbert Report, for example (which are daily and re-broadcast more than once a day), with new episodes only....is that what you are saying you can't do?

The impending Navigator threat has pushed me over the tipping poiint, and I'm now planning to sign up for Dish Satellite in the morning.

Just be thankful that you HAVE an option! Far as I know, I can only "see" the basic Direct bird, not the ones they are coming online with. AND it is possible I may have a huge fight to mount a dish on the outside of my building... the building can block that. BUT, there also the broadband issue. I frequently work from home, so the 3MB DSL is too slow. IF I could switch to satellite, I'm looking at 15 bucks more per month for RoadRunner (it would be 60 for 7Mb/s, while with a cable account I pay 45).

Oh, no OTA here as well.

The ONLY choice is FIOS... but that "choice" I'm not anticipating for 2-3 years. I hear they are starting to run fiber at the southern end of Manhattan. There is confusion about whether they will or won't go into apartments. Even if they do NOT, it took TWC a good 2 years to run fiber up to my 'hood, no reason to think Verizon will do that task in a few months. And if they run fiber into apartments, add another year at least.

R_G,

I am only talking about the bandwidth allocated to just the local analog channels (ABC, CBS, NBC, etc.). This bandwidth will become available with the analog shutoff in Feb 2009.

Wouldn't that mean that the "no cable box," cheapest cable accounts would ALL have to purchase converter boxes?

Still 2/2009 is pretty meaningless at this point. I dare say SDV is be 100% deployed by that point, so dropping a few analogs in 2009 will hardly merit a notice (obvious perspective of HD fanatics, 'natch).

Just be thankful that you HAVE an option! ....


Indeed I am thankful for that. I'm sorry to hear that you may not have one available to you. I know that there are many who, for a variety of reasons, cannot make a move, and they have my best wishes.

I'm sure that the problems Navigator brings will be worked out in time, but I suspect it will be a little ugly for a while, especially painful for those who have enjoyed Passport or Sara on their 8300HDs up until now.

Yea that is pretty hot. However, here in Raleigh NC we hit 107 a couple of weeks back. The humidity was ridiculous that day also. The heat index was up over 115. It felt like walking in the worlds largest Sauna when you went outside. In fact it rained in the evening that night!

It dropped from 100 to 80 in 40 seconds at 8:00 PM! We were watching the thermometer as a mini tornado raced in front of us. Kind of freaky! The weather has really been unusual here this year.

Oh gack! I have actual medical issues with excessive heat/humidity and find that each summer seems to get a tad worse (and I live in NYC). A tad worse here dues to so much concrete that holds heat real good! A couple of weeks each summer have nights never going below 80. Been thinking of the arctic circle... but WTF do I do about cable/satellite?

I frequently work from home, so the 3MB DSL is too slow. IF I could switch to satellite, I'm looking at 15 bucks more per month for RoadRunner (it would be 60 for 7Mb/s, while with a cable account I pay 45).


I find it interesting how differently TWC prices the same service everywhere...I have TWC Roadrunner premium (8m down 512k up)...and it is $50/month with cable tv service, $55/month standalone ($40 / $45 for basic Roadrunner 5m/384k). So my leaving penalty is $5...and this is on a $195/month account.

I'm feeling pissed off at TWC at the moment for two things...there support for Cable Cards is a joke - making my TiVo HD experience stink, and the Navigator 8300 is junk compared to even their own Passport 8300. They have me ready to drop $150/month of service because they are either idiots or just don't give a damn.

Indeed I am thankful for that. I'm sorry to hear that you may not have one available to you. I know that there are many who, for a variety of reasons, cannot make a move, and they have my best wishes.

I'm sure that the problems Navigator brings will be worked out in time, but I suspect it will be a little ugly for a while, especially painful for those who have enjoyed Passport or Sara on their 8300HDs up until now.

I have really been happy with TWC for a while. But man... After looking at the list of channels DirecTV is about to launch, combined with Navigator I have to admit I am thinking about it.

The really bad thing is that I really want more HD channels, and TWC has tied their ability to provide more HD channels to launching a poor product. Even if we in Austin with SARA DON'T get Navigatored because of the issues with it, it will likely slow down the negotiations for HD contracts (I would *really* like to see the last season of BSG in HD first-run).

I too have many questions about Satellite - however it does seem a bit off-topic for this thread. Maybe we need to start a 'Jump ship! The Navigator is taking us into the 'bergs' thread?

xnappo

I can record series for Daily Show and Colbert Report, for example (which are daily and re-broadcast more than once a day), with new episodes only....is that what you are saying you can't do?

Well, that's a good example of what I'm talking about and the odd thing is that I'm pretty sure that before the Daily Show went on hiatus it was recording the first run each day correctly. I'm having problems with MSNBC, where I'd like to record Hardball and Countdown. They both work if I record new and repeats but won't record just new. I guess I'll try doing a series recording of a soap opera to see if this is channel dependent.

Is that even possible?

The main Directv satellite is at 101, and the new one just launched is at 103. The one being launched by the end of the year will be at 99, so I would certainly think is you can see the main, you would HAVE to be able to see the new ones. My problem is I cannot see the one at 119, but all of the new HD content will be on the 99 and 103 birds, so at worst I loose a couple of channels. But I get Sci-Fi and my Raleigh locals (on 103) in HD, and that will me my main recording.

Just be thankful that you HAVE an option! Far as I know, I can only "see" the basic Direct bird, not the ones they are coming online with. AND it is possible I may have a huge fight to mount a dish on the outside of my building... the building can block that. BUT, there also the broadband issue. I frequently work from home, so the 3MB DSL is too slow. IF I could switch to satellite, I'm looking at 15 bucks more per month for RoadRunner (it would be 60 for 7Mb/s, while with a cable account I pay 45).

Well, that's a good example of what I'm talking about and the odd thing is that I'm pretty sure that before the Daily Show went on hiatus it was recording the first run each day correctly. I'm having problems with MSNBC, where I'd like to record Hardball and Countdown. They both work if I record new and repeats but won't record just new. I guess I'll try doing a series recording of a soap opera to see if this is channel dependent.

Is that even possible?

Yeah, I wonder if it might be channel dependent...I don't have many series recordings on the Navigator box. I did look at the recording logs and noticed that a number of the earlier recordings of Daily & Colbert had not recorded and had the error message talked about here recently "tuner unavailable", when it was the only thing recording. I had hard reset it several times since those failed recordings (due to the box locking up completely when using VoD).
Perhaps if you reboot your box a couple of times, and then test like you mentioned, you can get your recording working correctly. Have you looked at the recording log to see what it says?

Has anyone been able to confirm eSATA support in Navigator? My 8300HD with Passport seems about to die, and I am afraid I will be forced to switch to Navigator when TWC replaces it. I do not want to lose my expanded DVR capacity.

Thanks,
Ted

Has anyone been able to confirm eSATA support in Navigator? My 8300HD with Passport seems about to die, and I am afraid I will be forced to switch to Navigator when TWC replaces it. I do not want to lose my expanded DVR capacity.

Thanks,
Ted

You can search this thread...there are posts of it working successfully, including trick play - which may be the only advantage to Navigator 8300 over Passport. I haven't tried myself, so YMMV...but the reports are good.

I can record series for Daily Show and Colbert Report, for example (which are daily and re-broadcast more than once a day), with new episodes only....is that what you are saying you can't do?

Yeah, I wonder if it might be channel dependent...I don't have many series recordings on the Navigator box. I did look at the recording logs and noticed that a number of the earlier recordings of Daily & Colbert had not recorded and had the error message talked about here recently "tuner unavailable", when it was the only thing recording. I had hard reset it several times since those failed recordings (due to the box locking up completely when using VoD).
Perhaps if you reboot your box a couple of times, and then test like you mentioned, you can get your recording working correctly. Have you looked at the recording log to see what it says?

The box is so new I haven't even looked for the log. But I don't think that will make any difference because the problematic series don't appear in the list of scheduled recordings.

As for a hard reset, is this right? You turn off the box for a while, remove the power cord for a while, then replace the power cord *while holding down the power button* until the box boots?

As for a hard reset, is this right? You turn off the box for a while, remove the power cord for a while, then replace the power cord *while holding down the power button* until the box boots?

Yes, I just meant to reboot the box.. on the front panel of the 8300 just press the Info button plus the Vol Down (-) and Vol Up (+) buttons at the same time until it reboots.

Has anyone been able to confirm eSATA support in Navigator? My 8300HD with Passport seems about to die, and I am afraid I will be forced to switch to Navigator when TWC replaces it. I do not want to lose my expanded DVR capacity.

Thanks,
TedChris gave you the correct answer. HOWEVER, don't expect the new cable box to be able to play the recordings that you currently have on your external drive. The recordings are encrypted with a key that is unique to the DVR that recorded them - so you wouldn't be able to play recordings on the external drive on a new box (even if the new box also ran Passport).

Chris gave you the correct answer. HOWEVER, don't expect the new cable box to be able to play the recordings that you currently have on your external drive. The recordings are encrypted with a key that is unique to the DVR that recorded them - so you wouldn't be able to play recordings on the external drive on a new box (even if the new box also ran Passport).

Absolutely agree...should have said that myself. I read the OP's question as one of "not losing the capability" to record to external drive...All the 8300 external drives are keyed to the individual box they are attached to and will not play attached to any other 8300.
Thanks for the clarification.

I was puzzled by the fact that I can record only new episodes of some shows but not others. For instance, I can record "Flight of the Conchords" on HBO and capture only the first showing of the week of a new episode. But I can't record only the first showing of a news program such as "Hardball" on MSNBC. I would have to record all showings and delete the repeats. :mad:

TWC's explanation is that the box needs a "New" flag to program a series the way Passport did when you chose a specific time rather than "All Showings." News type programs don't have the "New" flag so Navigator doesn't know what to do with them.

The only workaround is to manually record the first showing for each day that the guide goes out.

Welcome to VCR tech in the 80s.

Ron

Welcome to VCR tech in the 80s.

Ron

Well, this is the way SARA has always been... How can Passport know it is new if it doesn't have the flag? Does it keep track of the description or something?

You can at least set up something like 'all episodes in this timeslot' on SARA. Can you not do that on Navigator?

xnappo

Well, this is the way SARA has always been... How can Passport know it is new if it doesn't have the flag? Does it keep track of the description or something?

You can at least set up something like 'all episodes in this timeslot' on SARA. Can you not do that on Navigator?

xnappo

Passport will also record multiples of "new only series recordings" on shows that don't have a proper guide flag....HBO shows are a good example...I would have the Soprano's set for "new only" and it would record every time the same episode played.

Ron,

Is there in fact a NEW episode in the guide for that week? I know that with SARA we cannot schedule a series recording for NEW episodes if there is not at least one NEW episode that week. If will look like it accepted the schedule, but there will be nothing there because it couldn't find a NEW episode to use to set a place-holder for the recording. Just a thought.

Well the reason is that long ago Congress passed laws that required regulation of cable and that cable must carry local OTA stations such that they are (See page 6 of FCC doc below).You are the man when it comes to this stuff. The problem I still have is that after Feb 2009, the only available channel to broadcast is digital and cable will broadcast that, you just can't receive it if you don't have a digital tuner. From what I read in what you PM'd me, cable is asking for the authority to downconvert so they can meet the broadcast requirement. This is where I say the FCC is tying cable's hands with competing rules; analogs go away, but cable still has to broadcast them in analog, but they are only available in digital, and they can't downconvert. You tell me how they meet that rule!

And I know it only applies to OTA local channels and I know why it only applies to cable, but that doesn't mean it's right or that I have to like it. :)

If the FCC wants cable to be a national provider inspite of competition from satellite, then they need to provide something that allows cable to meet the goal and still remain competitive. They set up the cable franchise monopoly, they allowed sat to be digital only (with the competitive advantage), they decided analogs would go away, and now they still want to demand that cable continue to proivide anaolg service, again at a competitive disadvantage. Just how fair is that? Even if you dislike cable, you have to admit it's simply not fair at all.

And don't even get me started on the advantage telco's now have not having to go through the local franchise process. Cable is still cable whether it's coax, fiber, or 4-strand wire for crying out loud. :)

Wouldn't that mean that the "no cable box," cheapest cable accounts would ALL have to purchase converter boxes?

Still 2/2009 is pretty meaningless at this point. I dare say SDV is be 100% deployed by that point, so dropping a few analogs in 2009 will hardly merit a notice (obvious perspective of HD fanatics, 'natch).Correct on all accounts, with the caveats Dave Hancock pointed out.

You are the man when it comes to this stuff. The problem I still have is that after Feb 2009, the only available channel to broadcast is digital and cable will broadcast that, you just can't receive it if you don't have a digital tuner. From what I read in what you PM'd me, cable is asking for the authority to downconvert so they can meet the broadcast requirement. This is where I say the FCC is tying cable's hands with competing rules; analogs go away, but cable still has to broadcast them in analog, but they are only available in digital, and they can't downconvert. You tell me how they meet that rule!By making a rule that they must.;)If the FCC wants cable to be a national provider inspite of competition from satellite, then they need to provide something that allows cable to meet the goal and still remain competitive. They set up the cable franchise monopoly, they allowed sat to be digital only (with the competitive advantage), they decided analogs would go away, and now they still want to demand that cable continue to proivide anaolg service, again at a competitive disadvantage. Just how fair is that? Even if you dislike cable, you have to admit it's simply not fair at all.I agree - BUT, it wasn't the FCC - It was Congress. They passed laws that directed the FCC to do these things (starting in 1992)!

BTW: The stuff that I PM'd you (and later posted here) is not too clear on who wants what. Truth is: Cable doesn't want anyone telling them what to do (pre-1992 thinking). And the NAB wants cable to do their total bidding. The FCC sees a train-wreck coming Feb 19, 2009 and wants to minimize the size of it. The Consumer Electronics Industry wants any excuse to wrest control away from cable, the Republicans.............., and the Democrats........
:eek::eek::eek::eek:

In reality, I believe that what will (must) emerge from the FCC is a ruling requiring dual carriage of local digital TV stations (one "native" resolution, on NTSC analog) UNLESS, the cable system has converted to 100% digital and the customers have boxes that work with their existing TVs on all digital formats.

Stay cool out there. :cool:

The Other Dave, :)

Yes, yes, it was Congress, the FCC are just the ones that do their bidding. :)

If you were cable, what would you want? :)

There is a train-wreck coming, but it won't affect me. It will only affect folks who use minimal cable service (AFAIK 2-99). While that is still a large number, I personally don't care. I'm so tired of legacy issues, not only with the DTV transition, but with Windows, etc.

It's understanable that cable doesn't want to have to buy 35M STBs for their cheap ( :) ) customers. It's also understandable that if they have to broadcast local analogs that they'd also want to be able to downconvert the expanded basic channels as well. Let's face it, if all they can downconvert is the locals, what's the point? How many subs only get 2-22 (not counting internet-only subs)?

I'm actually quite cool. There was a nice breeze today and we can see the light at the end of the tunnel. We did mange to extend the 1970/1972 record to 30 days >110, but hey, that's what records are for, right? :) Just so you know, 110 here is a lot different that 100 or so where you are, the humidity plays a major role in discomfort, though I do do my share of sweating. :)

Passport will also record multiples of "new only series recordings" on shows that don't have a proper guide flag....HBO shows are a good example...I would have the Soprano's set for "new only" and it would record every time the same episode played.

The problem with the navigator guide is that say for a show like Entourage or Flight of the Conchords it shows every airing that week as new. They may have fixed the fact that if you set it to record new shows of a series it didn't record all of those. It used to be that it recorded them all. Now you can only edit the start time but if they show at that time on any HBO channels during the week they will record. I didn't use this a lot with Passport but I never has a serious problem with series recordings with that software either. That and the fact that I never have gotten good results from series recordings anyway with Navigator have pushed me over to just manually setting them. Even with that it still misses recordings. Not just sporadically but on an at least 5% basis. 1 missed recording out of 100 is acceptable. This 1 in 20 chance is just a crapshoot and shouldn't be something I pay for.

Nothing good has come from this software and at this point nothing ever will, it is starting to wear on me. It has taken some time and I have been patient but with the fall line up starting soon I am starting to get antsy about it again. There is nothing worse that coming home to watch an episode of lets say "Lost" only to find out your box had one of the "channel not available" meltdowns again and decided it couldn't record it even though you can plainly see the last 5 minutes on said unavailable channel.

TWC has more of a problem on their hands than anyone here, or there for that matter, knows. If they continue to roll this out this software this thread will be even more hoppin' in about 5-6 weeks. In the 9-10 months time I have had this software you would think basic things like dependability would be getting fixed by now, not worse.

TW, "We think like you think" but only if you happen to be a retarded monkey.

TW, "We think like you think" but only if you happen to be a retarded monkey.

Now your just being mean to retarded monkeys! :D

The problem with the navigator guide is that say for a show like Entourage or Flight of the Conchords it shows every airing that week as new.It sure sounds there are 2 problems at work here. The Navigator software itself should have nothing to do with programs being flagged as New, that should be an indicator in the database. But, if programs are incorrectly flagged in the database, that could be impacting Navigator's ability to record the right programs at the right times. And, if the programs are incorrectly flagged, then folks still using SARA or Passport on the same system should also be affected, unless Navigator also requires a different database.

Well, this is the way SARA has always been... How can Passport know it is new if it doesn't have the flag? Does it keep track of the description or something?

You can at least set up something like 'all episodes in this timeslot' on SARA. Can you not do that on Navigator?

xnappo

No, because my version of Navigator has no notion of a "timeslot." That's how Passport worked. If the first weekly showing was at Sunday at 10PM, you just asked it to record only that timeslot.

Ron,

Is there in fact a NEW episode in the guide for that week? I know that with SARA we cannot schedule a series recording for NEW episodes if there is not at least one NEW episode that week. If will look like it accepted the schedule, but there will be nothing there because it couldn't find a NEW episode to use to set a place-holder for the recording. Just a thought.

The shows that I can't series record are news type shows that have a new "episode" everyday but are not flagged as such.

It sure sounds there are 2 problems at work here. The Navigator software itself should have nothing to do with programs being flagged as New, that should be an indicator in the database. But, if programs are incorrectly flagged in the database, that could be impacting Navigator's ability to record the right programs at the right times. And, if the programs are incorrectly flagged, then folks still using SARA or Passport on the same system should also be affected, unless Navigator also requires a different database.

The problem is that "New" flagging is inconsistent and since there is no timeslot option, any series that hasn't got the flag can only record every showing.

The TWC rep I spoke with about series recording was part of a somewhat more savvy group dedicated to supporting the HD boxes of both flavors. He understood my frustration with the flagging/lack of timeslot issue and volunteered "why Navigator is so slow." The system is strained by having to support two sw platforms simultaneously, so the allocation of resources has be set to favor people with Passport boxes!

No, because my version of Navigator has no notion of a "timeslot." That's how Passport worked. If the first weekly showing was at Sunday at 10PM, you just asked it to record only that timeslot.

Oh. Well that sucks!

xnappo

It sure sounds there are 2 problems at work here. The Navigator software itself should have nothing to do with programs being flagged as New, that should be an indicator in the database. But, if programs are incorrectly flagged in the database, that could be impacting Navigator's ability to record the right programs at the right times. And, if the programs are incorrectly flagged, then folks still using SARA or Passport on the same system should also be affected, unless Navigator also requires a different database.

Passport is affected in the same way as Navigator regarding recording multiple copies of shows that aren't flagged correctly as New on the initial showing, like all the HBO & SHO series...

Passport does allow you to select recording by both channel and time, allowing you to manually override this basic guide deficiency.

Navigator has no time slot or channel recording options, so you're stuck.

The TWC rep I spoke with about series recording was part of a somewhat more savvy group dedicated to supporting the HD boxes of both flavors. He understood my frustration with the flagging/lack of timeslot issue and volunteered "why Navigator is so slow." The system is strained by having to support two sw platforms simultaneously, so the allocation of resources has be set to favor people with Passport boxes!

I'm not arguing that you were told this by TWC...but it sounds like a huge pile of BS from them, as TWC has done nothing new with Passport for at least a year that I can remember, and they are replacing it with Navigator...so why are their resources dedicated to the platform they are getting rid of and not the one they are deploying?

I'm not arguing that you were told this by TWC...but it sounds like a huge pile of BS from them, as TWC has done nothing new with Passport for at least a year that I can remember, and they are replacing it with Navigator...so why are their resources dedicated to the platform they are getting rid of and not the one they are deploying?

I'm sure the rep could have been repeating something he'd heard from management without knowing what he was talking about. But the resources he was citing seemed to be bandwidth not development and since the installed base of Passport users seems to be larger at this point than those with Navigator they decided to further penalize the minority guinea pigs.

I still think it's probably a rationalization: Navigator is probably so slow mainly because it's a POS.

Two questions about Passport and Navigator:

I currently have Passport on my SA 8300 DVR. If I do nothing to a recording after saving it, how long will the show be saved? What is the default setting? I have heard "two weeks" and also "until space is needed." Which is correct?

Also, if and when my DVR gets upgrdaded to Navigator, what are the default settings for how long a show will be saved using Navigator on an SA 8300 DVR?

Jack

I was puzzled by the fact that I can record only new episodes of some shows but not others. For instance, I can record "Flight of the Conchords" on HBO and capture only the first showing of the week of a new episode. But I can't record only the first showing of a news program such as "Hardball" on MSNBC. I would have to record all showings and delete the repeats. :mad:

TWC's explanation is that the box needs a "New" flag to program a series the way Passport did when you chose a specific time rather than "All Showings." News type programs don't have the "New" flag so Navigator doesn't know what to do with them.

The only workaround is to manually record the first showing for each day that the guide goes out.

Welcome to VCR tech in the 80s.

Ron

Is this also because the software is not sensitive to content on the screen, rather than the time that a show is set to record? For example a movie, sports event, or individual programs of a selected series would be easier for Navigator to understand because it's an individualized program in a given time frame. If you try to automatically record, let's say a news program or something on Court TV, my guess is that the DVR can't differentiate between when the channel would be in the studio or when the channel would be live on location in news, or in court waiting for a verdict on Court TV. This is where a typical VCR might have an advantage over a DVR because with a VCR, you could be more selective on content within a show.

DVR's (and I presume Tivo's as well.) have that Ron Popiel, "set it and forget it" phrase really built into the technology. This is great for movies and sports, but it can be harder for selective recordings with individualized content within time periods.

Jack

Two questions about Passport and Navigator:

I currently have Passport on my SA 8300 DVR. If I do nothing to a recording after saving it, how long will the show be saved? What is the default setting? I have heard "two weeks" and also "until space is needed." Which is correct?

Also, if and when my DVR gets upgrdaded to Navigator, what are the default settings for how long a show will be saved using Navigator on an SA 8300 DVR?

Jack

I've noticed on another passport DVR in my house that we don't do much recording on, the programs will stay until space is needed. Some of the recorded programs are over a year old. :)

Well, I've put the feelers out about DirecTV today. Just to gather some info for the type of setup I'd need. The head of TWC public relations told me we are not getting Navigator until the first quarter of next year and people I've talked to who are getting new DVR boxes are getting the 8300HDC loaded with SARA in our market. I'm all for Navigator IF they get it working as advertised with ALL the features and running stable. If the saddle me with this piece of crap I will be ready to move to DirecTV even though it will cost me more. That or I will drop their DVR service for Tivo (assuming they are coming out with a unit that can do SDV and VOD).

Absolutely agree...should have said that myself. I read the OP's question as one of "not losing the capability" to record to external drive...All the 8300 external drives are keyed to the individual box they are attached to and will not play attached to any other 8300.
Thanks for the clarification.

As I continue to get corrupted recordings, even after removing the eSATA drive from my 8300HD with Passport, I will roll the dice with Navigator. How slow is it really? Anyone in the Raleigh/Durham area care to comment?

Thanks,
Ted

I was puzzled by the fact that I can record only new episodes of some shows but not others. For instance, I can record "Flight of the Conchords" on HBO and capture only the first showing of the week of a new episode. But I can't record only the first showing of a news program such as "Hardball" on MSNBC. I would have to record all showings and delete the repeats. :mad:

TWC's explanation is that the box needs a "New" flag to program a series the way Passport did when you chose a specific time rather than "All Showings." News type programs don't have the "New" flag so Navigator doesn't know what to do with them.

The only workaround is to manually record the first showing for each day that the guide goes out.

Welcome to VCR tech in the 80s.

Ron

The heart of this issue is good metadata. And therein lies the rub. Pretty sure TWC gets it's schedule data from TV Guide. TV Guide you'd think could come up with good data, but I've looked through their printed magazine and there are MANY errors on shows that have the "New" tag. I've seen shows that have the "New" tag for 3-4 rebroadcasts. If you ask them, they'll simply say the blame goes to the network not giving them good data. Then you say to them "But you're an editorial organization, don't you have ANY process to vet such things?"

News shows sometimes are best set up blindly... as in record from 6:30 to 7:00 PM every day on channel 2.

Passport will also record multiples of "new only series recordings" on shows that don't have a proper guide flag....HBO shows are a good example...I would have the Soprano's set for "new only" and it would record every time the same episode played.

That was NOT my experience at all. All the non-movie shoes on HBO, SHO seems to work correctly, only recording the really new shows.

And don't even get me started on the advantage telco's now have not having to go through the local franchise process. Cable is still cable whether it's coax, fiber, or 4-strand wire for crying out loud. :)

Not so sure that's correct, Verizon (from what I read) sure as hell needs a franchise agreement from the same city body that franchises TWC to provide TV services/FIOS. Not to deliver phone or Internet, but for TV yes. Again from what I've read, there are some places they are apparently set to go, but are still waiting on the franchise agreement with the city.

Having said that, I DO make a leap that the same happens everywhere else... but I suppose it IS possible they can do it without any government agency somewhere. Still, my bet would be they aren't interested in doing all that work for a city of 300,000. Eventually yes, but NOT any time soon.

As I continue to get corrupted recordings, even after removing the eSATA drive from my 8300HD with Passport, I will roll the dice with Navigator. How slow is it really? Anyone in the Raleigh/Durham area care to comment?

Thanks,
Ted

I'm on TWC Raleigh-Durham...and have one of the Navigator 8300s...
It is slower than Passport, but is as fast (maybe faster) than the new TiVo HD I tried out. Every time you press List, it rebuilds the list of recordings...takes a solid 2 seconds to display. It isn't slow to the point of un-usable...but it might bug you. The bigger issues to me are the lack of jump-back when FF, the lack of the 15 min "tick" advance, the lack of recording options, such as no channel selection, no time-slot selection, no deletion selections (keep till space needed / don't delete) for series recordings (until you actually playback the recorded program). There are probably other things as well, but those are the things that I'm missing. Also, there are issues with it just not recording some back to back recordings for no reason, and the reboot time is very long...maybe 10 minutes or so. So long, I never wait to see exactly.

Passport is affected in the same way as Navigator regarding recording multiple copies of shows that aren't flagged correctly as New on the initial showing, like all the HBO & SHO series...

Passport does allow you to select recording by both channel and time, allowing you to manually override this basic guide deficiency.

Navigator has no time slot or channel recording options, so you're stuck.

The version of Navigator I have does give you the option to record new shows at a certain time (for example you can set it for 9:00 PM). There is no channel or day specification though. So anytime that show starts at 9 throughout the week it records if it is still called "new" by the guide. Also if it were to start a couple minutes later (or earlier) in the guide that week it won't record at all. So yes it isn't a total navigator problem but a TV Guide problem for calling everything that week a "new" episode. That type of recording is too random for me. Like I said I just do it manually, and then maybe light a candle and say a quick prayer to the gods of occasionally functional software.

I never really used series recordings much with Passport either but when I did they usually worked for the most part.

I'm on TWC Raleigh-Durham...and have one of the Navigator 8300s...
It is slower than Passport, but is as fast (maybe faster) than the new TiVo HD I tried out. Every time you press List, it rebuilds the list of recordings...takes a solid 2 seconds to display. It isn't slow to the point of un-usable...but it might bug you. The bigger issues to me are the lack of jump-back when FF, the lack of the 15 min "tick" advance, the lack of recording options, such as no channel selection, no time-slot selection, no deletion selections (keep till space needed / don't delete) for series recordings (until you actually playback the recorded program). There are probably other things as well, but those are the things that I'm missing. Also, there are issues with it just not recording some back to back recordings for no reason, and the reboot time is very long...maybe 10 minutes or so. So long, I never wait to see exactly.

Thanks for the feedback. According to this document, the 15 minute advance is available:

http://www.timewarnercable.com/MediaLibrary/4/49/Content%20Management/Products%20And%20Services/images/mystro/NavEnhance.pdf

Although we may not yet have this feature in the Triangle.

Ted

Thanks for the feedback. According to this document, the 15 minute advance is available:

http://www.timewarnercable.com/MediaLibrary/4/49/Content%20Management/Products%20And%20Services/images/mystro/NavEnhance.pdf

Although we may not yet have this feature in the Triangle.

Ted

I had seen that before and got excited but...it doesn't work on the version we have. Another thing that is missing (but is in the referenced info), no Series Recording Priority settings...you cant re-order the priority of your series recordings, and their is no "Air Time" setting in series recordings either (which someone else mentioned today that they have). Don't know the versions of software (or where to find it on Navigator - Channel 999 doesn't provide the diag screen like Passport)...but there is obviously a version that is better than what we are using in Raleigh-Durham.

The version of Navigator I have does give you the option to record new shows at a certain time (for example you can set it for 9:00 PM). There is no channel or day specification though. So anytime that show starts at 9 throughout the week it records if it is still called "new" by the guide. Also if it were to start a couple minutes later (or earlier) in the guide that week it won't record at all. So yes it isn't a total navigator problem but a TV Guide problem for calling everything that week a "new" episode. That type of recording is too random for me. Like I said I just do it manually, and then maybe light a candle and say a quick prayer to the gods of occasionally functional software.

I never really used series recordings much with Passport either but when I did they usually worked for the most part.

Dorny, (Or anyone else with this issue.)

Does this issue only occur on series recordings or for everything else as well? (such as movies and sports for example?)

Jack

Thanks for the feedback. According to this document, the 15 minute advance is available:

http://www.timewarnercable.com/MediaLibrary/4/49/Content%20Management/Products%20And%20Services/images/mystro/NavEnhance.pdf

Although we may not yet have this feature in the Triangle.

Ted

Ha, the gas gauge, the 15 minute jump plus caller id seems to be the ONLY differences with Passport. Except from what I read, an awful lot of what they document for Navigator simply doesn't work. I could VERY easily live without those features, ESPECIALLY for software that CAN deliver those things (Passport in my case, SARA in other cases, although it looks like Passport is going away before SARA).

Ha, the gas gauge, the 15 minute jump plus caller id seems to be the ONLY differences with Passport. Except from what I read, an awful lot of what they document for Navigator simply doesn't work. I could VERY easily live without those features, ESPECIALLY for software that CAN deliver those things (Passport in my case, SARA in other cases, although it looks like Passport is going away before SARA).

Passport has 15 minute jump...so the only thing is the gas gauge (which is actually useful). Callerid is only for people who subscribe to TWC digital phone...so if you don't, it isn't different than Passport either.

Although, as you say, most of these features (along with some basic stability) aren't working (on my version of Navigator), but at least there is hope they will, since they are documenting them.

I picked up a new 8300HDC today. I can see now why Navigator is slow. It appears to be written in Java which is ridiculous. No one does anything in real-time with Java, and HD broadcasts almost certainly need to be real-time or close to it anyway. Java is a pig. No amount of optimization will make it fast. I see a DISH VIP722 in my future...

It is really too bad since I have had really reliable service from TWC this last year, but taking a step back (Passport->Navigator) like this is the same reason I left D* in the first place (HDTivo->HR20). Perhaps I am too picky, but I do not think it too much to ask for a reliable DVR with features that have been around since the Tivo Series 2 that also does HD. I am even willing to pay for it. If I didn't think the Tivo HD or Series 3 were dead-ends, I would buy one of those and suffer the pain of cable-card.

Ted

Is the Navigator really that bad? I believe it is soon heading to So Cal area and I'm actually looking forward to it!

I picked up a new 8300HDC today. I can see now why Navigator is slow. It appears to be written in Java which is ridiculous. No one does anything in real-time with Java, and HD broadcasts almost certainly need to be real-time or close to it anyway. Java is a pig. No amount of optimization will make it fast. I see a DISH VIP722 in my future...

It is really too bad since I have had really reliable service from TWC this last year, but taking a step back (Passport->Navigator) like this is the same reason I left D* in the first place (HDTivo->HR20). Perhaps I am too picky, but I do not think it too much to ask for a reliable DVR with features that have been around since the Tivo Series 2 that also does HD. I am even willing to pay for it. If I didn't think the Tivo HD or Series 3 were dead-ends, I would buy one of those and suffer the pain of cable-card.

Ted

I agree with your opinion on this...I did try a TiVo HD, but with TWC Raleigh-Durham, you have to accept all analog for basic and standard tier (2-76), ridiculous installation charges ($42.95 per card), and the fact that they only have single stream SA cards, that don't work well with the current TiVo firmware. I returned mine. Then there is the future of SDV, which is murky. Dish VIP722 is starting to look pretty good!

Overall I am unimpressed, but here are the improvements I have found so far over Passport:

Dark Pillarbox bars
New back-lit remote
Favorites that work

Sorry if this repeats other observations.

Ted

Overall I am unimpressed, but here are the improvements I have found so far over Passport:

Dark Pillarbox bars
New back-lit remote
Favorites that work

Sorry if this repeats other observations.

Ted

Yup, these are the benefits of Navigator over Passport, although, the remote is universal and works just as well with either system, so I can't really put that in the Navigator corner. Currently, the negatives still outweigh the positives, IMHO.

Overall I am unimpressed, but here are the improvements I have found so far over Passport:

Dark Pillarbox bars
New back-lit remote
Favorites that work

Sorry if this repeats other observations.

Ted

What's the problem with Favorites under Passport. They seem to work fine for me.

-barry

What's the problem with Favorites under Passport. They seem to work fine for me.

-barry

In Navigator you can have the Guide display favorites first...in Passport, you can not re-order the guide by favorites.

Yup, these are the benefits of Navigator over Passport, although, the remote is universal and works just as well with either system, so I can't really put that in the Navigator corner. Currently, the negatives still outweigh the positives, IMHO.

Add to that eSATA works without breaking trick-play. The wife is very much against satellite or paying for Tivo, so I guess we are going to give this the old college try and see how it goes.

Ted

Add to that eSATA works without breaking trick-play. The wife is very much against satellite or paying for Tivo, so I guess we are going to give this the old college try and see how it goes.

Ted

Are you using an eSATA drive on your new 8300HDC? If so, what drive/case/etc. are you using? I want to start looking at getting one as well.

Are you using an eSATA drive on your new 8300HDC? If so, what drive/case/etc. are you using? I want to start looking at getting one as well.

Seems like the time has come for a Navigator eSATA database!

Added one - see my sig.

xnappo

Are you using an eSATA drive on your new 8300HDC? If so, what drive/case/etc. are you using? I want to start looking at getting one as well.

It is a WD WDXS2500JS. It is no longer sold AFAIK.

Ted

In Navigator you can have the Guide display favorites first...in Passport, you can not re-order the guide by favorites.

Thanks. I wasn't aware of that option in Navigator. Frankly, it's an option that I would never use, but I guess it's always nice to have options. I bristle a bit at the OP implying that Passport favorites "don't work". :-)

-barry

Thanks. I wasn't aware of that option in Navigator. Frankly, it's an option that I would never use, but I guess it's always nice to have options. I bristle a bit at the OP implying that Passport favorites "don't work". :-)

-barry

The "Favorites First" in the Guide, makes the guide a bit more user friendly. A feature that many have asked for (with Passport) is the ability to delete channels from the guide, which to me would be the best way to go...but the Favorites First is better than nothing.

Thanks. I wasn't aware of that option in Navigator. Frankly, it's an option that I would never use, but I guess it's always nice to have options. I bristle a bit at the OP implying that Passport favorites "don't work". :-)

-barry

Fair enough. I'll rephrase to "Favorites are more useful."

Ted

It is a WD WDXS2500JS. It is no longer sold AFAIK.

Ted

This would appear to be the follow-on product:

http://www.westerndigital.com/en/products/Products.asp?DriveID=334

Ted

I decide to watch a race from the beginning while it is still recording. So I muddle through the user-unfriendly screens and start it playing. Great race...until I get to the same point I decided to start watching it. The screen goes black and that is that. The box locks up completely. I perform a hard reboot and up she goes....minutes later until I finally reach the dreaded #13 screen. It sits there and does not budge. I look at the front panel and sure enough it's recording something again.

BUG!!!!
Do not watch shows that are recording from the beginning. (Provided you can find a menu item saying "play".)

BUG!!!
You can not get past #13 until all recording has stopped.

This is the worst experience I have had since being with this company which is saying alot. I wonder how that race finished? It's only the 5th one I have missed because of this 8300HDC box with Navigator on it.

For those who don't have it yet, you will absolutely love it!! Oh the marvelous menu items. Go out and get one today! The more people that complain the better.

As I continue to get corrupted recordings, even after removing the eSATA drive from my 8300HD with Passport, I will roll the dice with Navigator. How slow is it really? Anyone in the Raleigh/Durham area care to comment?

Thanks,
Ted

That's exactly what happened to me. I gave up on the third box and the assurances from TWC that I was the only one with problems. The cable guy came out..."well it's not the signal." (I live two miles from TWC).
"I have a new box in the van let me get that for you."
*excitement on my end*
Now I wish I had any of the boxes with hard drive problems back.

You haven't seen anything, wait until you get the new ones they have. I think I am going to take mine and drop it from a great height and then hand it back to them.
"Here you go, it's broke."

This is the worst experience I have had since being with this company which is saying alot. I wonder how that race finished? It's only the 5th one I have missed because of this 8300HDC box with Navigator on it.Say, purpleosmosis: do you think that you could go to your user CP and modify your profile to add you location. Your comments are much more relevant to the rest of us when we understand which particular TW system you are on. ;)

You haven't seen anything, wait until you get the new ones they have.

I can hardly wait...:(

This would appear to be the follow-on product:

http://www.westerndigital.com/en/products/Products.asp?DriveID=334

Ted

Thanks for the info...

Fair enough. I'll rephrase to "Favorites are more useful."

Ted

Sounds good to me. :-)

I decide to watch a race from the beginning while it is still recording. So I muddle through the user-unfriendly screens and start it playing. Great race...until I get to the same point I decided to start watching it. The screen goes black and that is that. The box locks up completely. I perform a hard reboot and up she goes....minutes later until I finally reach the dreaded #13 screen. It sits there and does not budge. I look at the front panel and sure enough it's recording something again.

BUG!!!!
Do not watch shows that are recording from the beginning. (Provided you can find a menu item saying "play".)

BUG!!!
You can not get past #13 until all recording has stopped.

This is the worst experience I have had since being with this company which is saying alot. I wonder how that race finished? It's only the 5th one I have missed because of this 8300HDC box with Navigator on it.

For those who don't have it yet, you will absolutely love it!! Oh the marvelous menu items. Go out and get one today! The more people that complain the better.

I experienced this bug this morning. As a result, the wife and I went to BestBuy today to check out TivoHD. I ended up ordering a Series3 from circuitcity.com due to lowish price and liberal return policy in case I can't get cable card to work. If we cannot get it to work to our liking, satellite is our last option which the wife really wants to avoid.

Ted

I experienced this bug this morning. As a result, the wife and I went to BestBuy today to check out TivoHD. I ended up ordering a Series3 from circuitcity.com due to lowish price and liberal return policy in case I can't get cable card to work. If we cannot get it to work to our liking, satellite is our last option which the wife really wants to avoid.

Ted

Remember that you will only get analog for basic and standard tier channels (2-76) with cable cards from TWC in our area as opposed to Digital (as you get with the SA8300. May not matter to you...but just so you know.

Remember that you will only get analog for basic and standard tier channels (2-76) with cable cards from TWC in our area as opposed to Digital (as you get with the SA8300. May not matter to you...but just so you know.

So, if I am understading you correctly, channels 2-76 are digital on my current DVRs, but will be analog on my Tivo? I would expect them to look better than they do on the 8300 if that is the case.

Thanks,
Ted

So, if I am understading you correctly, channels 2-76 are digital on my current DVRs, but will be analog on my Tivo? I would expect them to look better than they do on the 8300 if that is the case.

Thanks,
Ted

Not sure I understand why they would look better in analog than digital, but that may be your preference. Analog looks like a thin piece of gauze was placed over the picture...the picture 'noise' is different than the digital artifacts, but after doing a lot of stare and compare between an 8300HD & TiVo HD, I think the digital images are cleaner, and have much better color and contrast, than their analog counterparts. What display you are viewing on will of course impact your opinion of what looks better, but on both my Vizo P50HDTV (50" Plasma) and a 32" Panny CRT HDTV, the digital simulcast channels look better to me.

As a simple way to compare for yourself, just connect the TWC coax directly to your TV, and you will have the analog version of those channels.

Not sure I understand why they would look better in analog than digital, but that may be your preference. Analog looks like a thin piece of gauze was placed over the picture...the picture 'noise' is different than the digital artifacts, but after doing a lot of stare and compare between an 8300HD & TiVo HD, I think the digital images are cleaner, and have much better color and contrast, than their analog counterparts. What display you are viewing on will of course impact your opinion of what looks better, but on both my Vizo P50HDTV (50" Plasma) and a 32" Panny CRT HDTV, the digital simulcast channels look better to me.

As a simple way to compare for yourself, just connect the TWC coax directly to your TV, and you will have the analog version of those channels.

I meant to say that I thought the digital image quality would be better than it is. It looks bad enough on my 46" Samsung LCD that I cannot imagine analog will look much worse. SD on TWC is consistently dimmer and has more compression artifacts than I had with D*. I'll give your suggestion a try when I get the chance to see what analog will look like.

Thanks,
Ted

I meant to say that I thought the digital image quality would be better than it is. It looks bad enough on my 46" Samsung LCD that I cannot imagine analog will look much worse. SD on TWC is consistently dimmer and has more compression artifacts than I had with D*. I'll give your suggestion a try when I get the chance to see what analog will look like.

Thanks,
Ted

You're right, it won't look much worse, and TWC actually does a good job with the analog signal in our area. It will look different however, which is all I wanted you to realize before you get your Cable Cards. You trade compression artifacts for analog 'snow'.

You're right, it won't look much worse, and TWC actually does a good job with the analog signal in our area. It will look different however, which is all I wanted you to realize before you get your Cable Cards. You trade compression artifacts for analog 'snow'.Keep in mind in this discussion that once you "record" the analog SD on TiVo, you do digitize the signal in the box (in order to record it) - and that usually is pretty crappy (one reason that in the analog days I would never buy a TiVo. But, if your primary use for SD is "casual" live viewing, PQ should be good.

I meant to say that I thought the digital image quality would be better than it is. It looks bad enough on my 46" Samsung LCD that I cannot imagine analog will look much worse. SD on TWC is consistently dimmer and has more compression artifacts than I had with D*. I'll give your suggestion a try when I get the chance to see what analog will look like.

Thanks,
Ted

After a little testing by plugging the cable from the wall directly to my TV, I can easily see the difference you describe up close, but not from a typical viewing distance. It was definitely there, but I had to concentrate to notice it.

While I was playing around, I discovered the non-encrypted HD locals: WRAL is on 85 for instance. I was dismayed by how much the 8300 "softens" the image. The detail and depth of field, if that is the right term, was much better with the direct connection than with the DVR. CSI:Miami looked spectacular with the direct connection. It seemed much more three dimensional than through the DVR. With PIP, I could switch back and forth easily to compare. I guess that is the price we pay for live buffers.

Ted

Well,

I guess these are the $64,000 Questions with regards to Navigator:

1.) If there is no mandated national rollout deadline, what do you believe will be the LATEST point in time that Navigator might be rolled out? Based on the collected information, could a TWC local division head say, "I don't want this!" and just keep Passport indefinitely?

2.) If there IS a national rollout deadline I have heard that it is supposed to be by the end of the first quarter of 2008. But if there is no mandated deadline, what do you anticipate would be the longest that a division would go with Passport?

3.) From an economic sense, how much would it cost TWC to continue to pay the licensing fees to maintain Passport software, as opposed to the obvious revenue that they must have lost from buggy Navigator boxes and disgruntled customers who stopped subscribing to TWC because of bad experiences with Navigator?

4.) What are the MAIN bugs that still exist with Navigator that TWC MUST address before any type of national rollout? From the data that I have gathered, although still a Passport user, these are:

1.) The new guide moves too slowly, even on DVR systems, which have the most memory.

2.) Customers have problems with recording series in the Series Manager screens.

3.) No slight jump back in the buffering when rewinding/fast forwarding DVR or VOD content.

4.) Customers with HD sets can't record on all HD channels. The picture often breaks up (is pixiated)

5.) While there is less rebooting of boxes than the disasters of a year ago, the reboots are still happening more often than they should, especially with a supposed "upgrade."

6.) The color scheme is too blue

Would you say that the biggest issues right now are problems with DVR series recording under boxes running Navigator?

Jack

You left off the bug that worries me the most and that's the "watch while recording bug".

Also, I really dislike the design decision not to buffer live TV while you are watching a recording.

These two, along with the many complaints about series recording not working properly (your number 2), are the things that really scare me about Navigator.

-barry

Well,

I guess these are the $64,000 Questions with regards to Navigator:

1.) If there is no mandated national rollout deadline, what do you believe will be the LATEST point in time that Navigator might be rolled out? Based on the collected information, could a TWC local division head say, "I don't want this!" and just keep Passport indefinitely?



Local sources at TWC indicate that corporate expects them to get Navigator rolled out to all recent boxes the end of 2007, but they expect to get another quarter extension if things do not go well.




3.) No slight jump back in the buffering when rewinding/fast forwarding DVR or VOD content.



Mine does jump-back, but not as far back as my Passport DVR did.



Would you say that the biggest issues right now are problems with DVR series recording under boxes running Navigator?



1. TVGuide data does not correctly identify new programs much of the time. This is not specifically a Navigator problem other than Navigator uses TVGuide instead of whatever they used for Passport which itself seemed less consistent than what I had with DirecTiVO. As a result, all of my series recordings have to be set to record all episodes and then manually cancel the ones I do not want.

2. The aforementioned watch while recording bug.

Ted

How many of you buy into the issue of what I heard about cable head-ends being strained running both Navigator and Passport depending on the type of box that a customer has within a particular mode? " Modes are several geographical locations within a city that transmits the back and forth data from a cable company's head-end to a subscriber's cable box or DVR." The city where I am in the Metro-Milwaukee area (Wisconsin) has something like 30 modes. Now, if some of those boxes/DVR's are Navigator guides and some are Passport guides, could the head-end data become strained or confused until all area modes are updated to Navigator?

Or is this analogy just "hot air" from TWC to defend the new software that is still problematic in several areas?

Back in January, when the folks at Lincoln Nebraska were going through Navigator hell, I heard that there were blanket roll-outs to about 1,500 boxes at a time, (REGARDLESS OF MAKE OR MODEL OF THE BOXES.) In Lincoln, did they just stop the deployment of the software for awhile and than begin a slower roll-out? Here in Milwaukee, they are going very slowly with the roll-out.

Jack

Here's what's happening in Charlotte: Any new customers are getting, by default, the new SA8300HDC DVR's. These all run Navigator. You can still request one of the "older" 8300's which still run Passport, and savvy (meaning: those who are AVS members and who have a clue about what's going on) folks are doing that. So, right now, they are supporting both operating systems. I have no idea what the future will hold, but I pray regularly over my two "old" 8300's that they keep on keepin' on, for as long as TWC will continue to support Passport in this area.

When I turned in my broken 8300HD today, I mentioned that it was having trouble with corrupted recordings. The nice lady behind the glass told me not to worry, it would get the new software "upgrade" before it was redeployed. I asked "you mean Navigator?" and she nodded. Assuming she knows what she is talking about, which I wouldn't necessarily, that means non-HDC DVRs are getting Navigator in Raleigh which is news to me.

Ted

When I turned in my broken 8300HD today, I mentioned that it was having trouble with corrupted recordings. The nice lady behind the glass told me not to worry, it would get the new software "upgrade" before it was redeployed. I asked "you mean Navigator?" and she nodded. Assuming she knows what she is talking about, which I wouldn't necessarily, that means non-HDC DVRs are getting Navigator in Raleigh which is news to me.

TedShe probably doesn't understand what is going on.

How many of you buy into the issue of what I heard about cable head-ends being strained running both Navigator and Passport depending on the type of box that a customer has within a particular mode? " Modes are several geographical locations within a city that transmits the back and forth data from a cable company's head-end to a subscriber's cable box or DVR." The city where I am in the Metro-Milwaukee area (Wisconsin) has something like 30 modes. Now, if some of those boxes/DVR's are Navigator guides and some are Passport guides, could the head-end data become strained or confused until all area modes are updated to Navigator?

Or is this analogy just "hot air" from TWC to defend the new software that is still problematic in several areas?

Back in January, when the folks at Lincoln Nebraska were going through Navigator hell, I heard that there were blanket roll-outs to about 1,500 boxes at a time, (REGARDLESS OF MAKE OR MODEL OF THE BOXES.) In Lincoln, did they just stop the deployment of the software for awhile and than begin a slower roll-out? Here in Milwaukee, they are going very slowly with the roll-out.

Jack

If I remember correctly. Lincoln rolled out Navigator to specific types of boxes at one time. They started with the plain non-DVR STB's and then would go up to the next level of box every few weeks. I may have that backwards though I can't remember anymore. I am trying to remember if I had Navigator before some of my friends who didn't have HD or didn't have DVR's or if they had it first.

But the whole thing took place over a couple month period if I remember correctly.

If I remember correctly. Lincoln rolled out Navigator to specific types of boxes at one time. They started with the plain non-DVR STB's and then would go up to the next level of box every few weeks. I may have that backwards though I can't remember anymore. I am trying to remember if I had Navigator before some of my friends who didn't have HD or didn't have DVR's or if they had it first.

But the whole thing took place over a couple month period if I remember correctly.

In fact now that I think about it. I think that I did have it backwards. The HD boxes got it first and then down the line to the plain digital boxes.

So the question on my mind is this: How long has Lincoln had Navigator and what bugs remain in the system? They were the first area to get it, right? That would be a good gauge for what others can expect. In Syracuse, the rollout is set for 1st quarter of 2008 and that comes directly from the head for this region. We are on SARA software currently. I'm willing to give it a chance, but I expect it to be at the very least as good as what I have now. I'm willing to give them a windows of opportunity to take care of any glitches that may occur from the initial rollout, but thats it. If they can't have it straight in say six months time, I'm out. I talked to a Verizon rep at the State Fair a few days back and my area is slated for FiOS by next year so I may have more options by that time. Otherwise, I may be forced into going to DirecTV, which I'd rather not do because it cost significantly more than either FiOS or cable.

So the question on my mind is this: How long has Lincoln had Navigator and what bugs remain in the system? They were the first area to get it, right? That would be a good gauge for what others can expect. In Syracuse, the rollout is set for 1st quarter of 2008 and that comes directly from the head for this region. We are on SARA software currently. I'm willing to give it a chance, but I expect it to be at the very least as good as what I have now. I'm willing to give them a windows of opportunity to take care of any glitches that may occur from the initial rollout, but thats it. If they can't have it straight in say six months time, I'm out. I talked to a Verizon rep at the State Fair a few days back and my area is slated for FiOS by next year so I may have more options by that time. Otherwise, I may be forced into going to DirecTV, which I'd rather not do because it cost significantly more than either FiOS or cable.

I have had Navigator since sometime in last November. The bugs here that remain are pretty consistent with what is posted by the others here that are just getting it. Maybe not as extreme, but maybe we are just used to it over time. It is tough to say.

I would be lying if I said it hasn't gotten better over time. But that doesn't mean I think it is ready to go or better than what I remember with Passport. I can't really compare it to SARA as it has been a few years since we have had that here. The biggest problem I have is the slowness in developing this software (whether that is real or perceived I suppose is up for debate). Nothing is ever going to be 100% bug free, but after close to a year of this you would think the majority of the problems would be getting fixed by now. The random reboots were never a serious problem for me like it was for others around here. I think that has been fixed to some extent but I had one the other day and they still happen every once in a while. Some other problems have been resolved since we got this here but others have crept up at the same time. This missing recordings thing for instance wasn't an issue for me when I got Navigator and has only become a problem for me since May.

So at least for me that would be my biggest frustration with Navigator. I like I have posted earlier I am starting to get a bit antsy with the fall TV schedule starting soon for if nothing else the missed recording problems to get fixed.

Hope Navigator is more stable by the time it gets to us SARA folk. (EX CRAZYWOODY)SARA 1.89.17 Greensboro NC

If many of you are still having problems with your Navigator upgrade I would suggest the following:

If you are a good letter writer and like to do word processing, you should send a letter directly to the President or head of your local TWC office on MS Word or a compatible Word Processing program. Keep it short, direct, and simple, but list the problems that you are still having with Navigator. Don't make your letter long or full of negativity, just state the facts of your specific problems with Navigator. (i.e can't record series well, reboot issues, whatever)

If you have gone through say 3 or more boxes since the upgrade, mention this in your letters, and suggest that this could be a problem with the software. (i.e I get a new box 5 times and nothing has changed) You could list any features that you like about Navigator as well, and what you might like to see in the future.

Than close out in some sort of positive way in hopes of getting a favorable response. (i.e Thank you for your services and programing on Time Warner Cable.)

The more local office heads that see similarities and patterns with the specific types of problems with Navigator with people taking the time to write actual letters instead of e-mails or phone calls to some clueless CSR on the other end, the greater likelihood that the problems you are having will be worked out before Navigator gets rolled out nationally.

The reason for this is that it will help local division Presidents communicate with each other as to the types of problems that are still occurring with this software. Maybe if enough people write, more of these issues will get fixed. If you don't have time to write, I would contact your local TWC office with your specific Navigator issues and ask to speak to a supervisor. Additionally, some TWC websites (I know Milwaukee used to have this) contain surveys about Navigator that you can fill out that are specific to your issues with the software. Tell the higher-ups your good points and bad points with TWC Navigator.

It can really make a difference.

Jack

Here are some of my first impressions of the SA 8300 HDC box with navigator on it. I’m in TWC of NEO (North East Ohio). I’ve had the boxes now close to a month. Now when I first got these boxes, I made a comment to the CSR. That it would take probably a couple hours for it to update. Well they said in effect that it would not be that long.
Well 4 days later, it finally updated for the Second box, which I got a week later.

I should note a couple of things. One is my background I’ve previously worked for a cable company (in maintenance), though the last time I worked for them was in late 1999. So some things have changed since I have left Cable. Also it was not until after I got the boxes and had problems, did I start reading these posts about these boxes at this Forum. I understand the limitations of the systems and the two way communications to a degree on these systems.

Having that out of the way, in my first call to TWC to get a “hit” to the box, I was having a problem with the box, that every time I channeled up and down past a maintenance channel which gave information about the box, the box would lock onto that screen and would not allow the picture to change channel, (they have since fixed that problem) the only way to clear it was to Hard Reboot, then not scroll through that channel. But the CSR said this was the new system they were rolling out here in NEO for TWC.

The next problem, I’ve dealt with that the second box, which I did not hard or soft reboot. After a week, would not record anything. It flat out refused to record. At that point I came to the forum board, (Not calling TWC), I soft reboot the box and it started recording right away. (I have since gone to the policy at my house, about every other day on these boxes to soft reboot these boxes and have had minimal problems).

I’ve seen the problems of recording quit when going to the channel that is recording. I’ve corrupted recording, usually audio cuts out every 5 to 7 seconds on the recording, (Though rebooting every other day has dropped this problem down dramatically). I’ve had were the hard drive gauge say I’m at 48% and it will not record because it says the hard drive is full.

When the SA box works great, but the average Joe is not going to reboot their boxes every other day to keep their system working fairly smoothly. Since the TiVo HD boxes at this time not compatible with SDV, any suggestions as to what to do? I emailed TWC about this, I got the courtesy response, they received the Email though I personally don’t expect a response at least telling me they plan for the CC 2.0 support or when they will roll out SDV. Or that they will work on these problems, what are others considering or expecting?

Though I’ll write a letter too.

Overall I am unimpressed, but here are the improvements I have found so far over Passport:

Dark Pillarbox bars
New back-lit remote
Favorites that work

Sorry if this repeats other observations.

Ted
So when they download Navigator onto my Passport box my remote will have a back-light? ;) Dan

So I just go the SA 8300HDC...I plugged in the box yesterday and it gave me an OCAP message after boot.

I exchanged that box today and receive the same message. Is there anything I can do or is it just keep exchaning til I get one that doesn't flash OCAP

So I just go the SA 8300HDC...I plugged in the box yesterday and it gave me an OCAP message after boot.

I exchanged that box today and receive the same message. Is there anything I can do or is it just keep exchaning til I get one that doesn't flash OCAPAs long as they give you the 8300HDC you will get this. If you can convince them to provide a "used" 8300HD, then you will get Passport again (I think - it depends on where you are located - you really should put that in your profile).

So when they download Navigator onto my Passport box my remote will have a back-light? ;) Dan

:p

So I just go the SA 8300HDC...I plugged in the box yesterday and it gave me an OCAP message after boot.

I exchanged that box today and receive the same message. Is there anything I can do or is it just keep exchaning til I get one that doesn't flash OCAP

Not sure what your asking...the 8300HDC is an OCAP box and is only being offered with Navigator software.

You should get "OCAP" on the display as it is initializing. The boot time is quite long...like 5 - 10 minutes. Are you letting it fully boot?

Not sure what your asking...the 8300HDC is an OCAP box and is only being offered with Navigator software. That's not actually correct. The 8300HDC is OCAP compatible - but it does not need Navigator software at all! What the 8300HDC needs is software that works with the external CableCards. A version of Passport is available to work with this box, but TWC does not want to pay Aptiv for it. I believe that other companies (Comcast, etc.) are still using Passport with this new box. TW is also using SARA (1.90.xx.xx) software on many of their systems with the 8300HDC.

That's not actually correct. The 8300HDC is OCAP compatible - but it does not need Navigator software at all! What the 8300HDC needs is software that works with the external CableCards. A version of Passport is available to work with this box, but TWC does not want to pay Aptiv for it. I believe that other companies (Comcast, etc.) are still using Passport with this new box. TW is also using SARA (1.90.xx.xx) software on many of their systems with the 8300HDC.

Well, since this is a TWC thread, I meant that the 8300HDC is only being offered in TWC with Navigator...I haven't heard that anyone had the 8300HDC with SARA (or anything else besides Navigator), so if that is true, I stand corrected.

Well, since this is a TWC thread, I meant that the 8300HDC is only being offered in TWC with Navigator...I haven't heard that anyone had the 8300HDC with SARA (or anything else besides Navigator), so if that is true, I stand corrected.Be corrected: There are lots of TW systems with SARA (note my sig).

Be corrected: There are lots of TW systems with SARA (note my sig).

Never said TWC doesn't use SARA, I said I wasn't aware that they were deploying 8300HDC's with SARA.

Their is actually more SARA systems in TWC than PASSPORT.Boy i will hate to hear the screaming if NAVIGATOR is not fixed when it hits SARA systems. (Formally Crazywoody)Sara 1.89.17 Greensboro NC

Never said TWC doesn't use SARA, I said I wasn't aware that they were deploying 8300HDC's with SARA.

I thyink Dave was trying out a new keyboard and hit the wrong keys!

We have scads of reports of HDC's being distributed with Navigator but not one report of anyone getting that box with anything OTHER than Navigator.

We also know that there will be 2 versions of navigator, one for the larger memory footprint of the HDC box and one tailored for their HD boxes. Given TWC's record with software I expect the version for the HD boxes to have even more bugs than the version for the HDC box. Or that a big fix in one version takes 3-4 months to make it to the other version.

For MANY folks in Passport areas, we are trembling at the thought of it being forced on our HD boxes, without even an hours notice. I expect it will happen right around when the new TV season starts...

Oh, one mini-rant. Please let's NOT call these "OCAP boxes." There are essentially NO issues yet with OCAP... I don't think anything is actually using it yet anyway. The focus belongs on the Navigator software itself, not hung on the fact that it supports OCAP.

I thyink Dave was trying out a new keyboard and hit the wrong keys!

We have scads of reports of HDC's being distributed with Navigator but not one report of anyone getting that box with anything OTHER than Navigator.


Eh? Yes we have, just in the SARA thread!

Everywhere there is SARA they are getting 8300HDCs with SARA 1.90.

xnappo

I thyink Dave was trying out a new keyboard and hit the wrong keys!No - I didn't hit any wrong keys.

We have scads of reports of HDC's being distributed with Navigator but not one report of anyone getting that box with anything OTHER than Navigator.Which would stand to reason since this is a Navigator thread! There are reports in the SARA threads. However, nothing is really changed, so there are not any complaints particular to the 8300HDC.

Seems like the time has come for a Navigator eSATA database!

Added one - see my sig.

xnappo

FYI - for ncted and brboot - I fixed the issue that the database was referencing 'Passport Version' instead of 'Navigator Version' if y'all want to update your entries with the Navigator version.

xnappo

FYI - for ncted and brboot - I fixed the issue that the database was referencing 'Passport Version' instead of 'Navigator Version' if y'all want to update your entries with the Navigator version.

xnappo

Assuming my 8300HDC ever comes back on-line, how do I determine what version of Navigator I am running?

Thanks,
Ted

I thyink Dave was trying out a new keyboard and hit the wrong keys!

We have scads of reports of HDC's being distributed with Navigator but not one report of anyone getting that box with anything OTHER than Navigator.

We also know that there will be 2 versions of navigator, one for the larger memory footprint of the HDC box and one tailored for their HD boxes. Given TWC's record with software I expect the version for the HD boxes to have even more bugs than the version for the HDC box. Or that a big fix in one version takes 3-4 months to make it to the other version.

For MANY folks in Passport areas, we are trembling at the thought of it being forced on our HD boxes, without even an hours notice. I expect it will happen right around when the new TV season starts...

Oh, one mini-rant. Please let's NOT call these "OCAP boxes." There are essentially NO issues yet with OCAP... I don't think anything is actually using it yet anyway. The focus belongs on the Navigator software itself, not hung on the fact that it supports OCAP.

To clear up some of the jargon, can you guys explain what OCAP is and how the two versions of Navigator will be alike and different? This may help people in determining the right version of Navigator that they are running if they need help. Thanks!

Jack

Assuming my 8300HDC ever comes back on-line, how do I determine what version of Navigator I am running?

Thanks,
Ted

That is a very good question.

Someone posted the sequence to get into Diag mode in Navigator but I can't find it... :(

xnappo

That is a very good question.

Someone posted the sequence to get into Diag mode in Navigator but I can't find it... :(

xnappo

Found it, you hit the select button on the remote until the mail icon displays on the 8300hdc. Once the mail icon is displayed, hit the down arrow key for the diag mode.