Found it, you hit the select button on the remote until the mail icon displays on the 8300hdc. Once the mail icon is displayed, hit the down arrow key for the diag mode.

Found it. Updated.

Ted

Found it. Updated.

Ted

Thanks guys.

xnappo

To clear up some of the jargon, can you guys explain what OCAP is and how the two versions of Navigator will be alike and different? This may help people in determining the right version of Navigator that they are running if they need help. Thanks!

JackWhat is the OCAP™ specification?

The OpenCable Applications Platform specification is a middleware software layer specification. The OCAP specification is intended to enable the developers of interactive television services and applications to design such products so that they will run successfully on any cable television system in North America, independent of set-top or television receiver hardware or operating system software choices.

The OCAP specification enables manufacturers and retail distributors of set-tops, television receivers or other devices to build and to sell attractive and capable devices to consumers that will support all services delivered by cable operators to devices currently available to consumers via lease from cable operators.

The issued OCAP 1.0 specification was released in December 2001 and was followed by OCAP 2.0 in April 2002. Both are available under OpenCable Specifications.

http://www.opencable.com/ocap/ocap.html

I haven't seen anywhere what the differences between the Navigator versions are except the OCAP Navigator uses the OCAP specification to interface with the cable television system.

What is the OCAP™ specification?

The OpenCable Applications Platform specification is a middleware software layer specification. The OCAP specification is intended to enable the developers of interactive television services and applications to design such products so that they will run successfully on any cable television system in North America, independent of set-top or television receiver hardware or operating system software choices.

The OCAP specification enables manufacturers and retail distributors of set-tops, television receivers or other devices to build and to sell attractive and capable devices to consumers that will support all services delivered by cable operators to devices currently available to consumers via lease from cable operators.

The issued OCAP 1.0 specification was released in December 2001 and was followed by OCAP 2.0 in April 2002. Both are available under OpenCable Specifications.

http://www.opencable.com/ocap/ocap.html

I haven't seen anywhere what the differences between the Navigator versions are except the OCAP Navigator uses the OCAP specification to interface with the cable television system.

Thank you!

Now my understanding is that TWC could have paid Passport the continued licensing fee to get the OCAP update, but they chose not to. Instead they opted for Navigator because TWC wanted their own "in-house" development guide that they could deploy to the rest of their markets Is it true that former Passport programmers are helping TWC develop the Navigator software, or just a rumor? At least the Passport guys would have known what they were doing!

Jack

It is my understanding that 10 former passport programers are now working on the Navigator team to fix it.

Eh? Yes we have, just in the SARA thread!

Everywhere there is SARA they are getting 8300HDCs with SARA 1.90.

xnappo

Well, now "I" have heard of it! Makes sense as SARA does SDV (or so I've also "heard").

It is my understanding that 10 former passport programers are now working on the Navigator team to fix it.

Given that we have many reports of folks getting Navigator and not being able to actually record anything, I think the Navigator programming team consists of 20 marketing folks, 13 accountants, 7 executives and one non English speaking 19 year old Pakistani porogrammer (no insult to them meant, one could say it's not the programmers fault they are putting non-functional software into production, it's those 7 execs who are spending more time contemplating their next Bentley than paying attention to the working software they do NOT yet have)...

Off topic subject-Just read on Swanni Sez that Direct TV will be adding 40 new hd channels in September arround the 16th.TWC with there pitiful hd lineup and broken Navigator looking worse all the time. Sara 1.89.17 Greensboro NC

I just had my DVRs "fixed" by a TWC tech. Essentially, he called a number and had them reactivate both my boxes. He told me that, when I returned my broken 8300HD, a bug in the system disabled all my boxes. He also complained that the customer support folks on the phone could have fixed my problem, but all they care about is how fast they get customers off the phone since that is what bonuses and raises are based on. He also stated that cable cards are pretty horrible to support since technical documentation is virtually nonexistent. He also was very anti-Navigator and pro-Passport. He cannot do anything to a Navigator box without calling back to the office to get them to work on it remotely whereas Passport he can control through his laptop in his van.

Ted

Yea, as much as I don't want to switch to DirecTV they are looking better and better which this Navigator fiasco. The thing is that if Time Warner loses me as a cable customer, they are also going to lose me as a phone customer because I will no longer get a package discount. I will look at going to Vonage or some other VOIP provider. I really wish Verizon would get FIOS out here (I'm told at least a year) because I'd seriously look at that for a bundle package. I mean, I asked people who have had Navigator over a year now (Lincoln) and they are saying that it still has major issues! I brought it up early and the replies didn't give me much faith. This software should be running almost flawlessly by now. The only other option I can see is if third party manufacturers start marketing set top boxes with features beyond what Time Warner has. I'd pay for a well equipped STB that worked. Some one should look at making one under the OCAP blanket!

Hi,

I'm an NYC TWC customer with an SA8300HDC.

Could someone please point me to a faq or post that defines, SARA, passport, navigator, SDV, OCAP, and other terms that are popping up frequently in this thread?

Much appreciated!

Yea, as much as I don't want to switch to DirecTV they are looking better and better which this Navigator fiasco. The thing is that if Time Warner loses me as a cable customer, they are also going to lose me as a phone customer because I will no longer get a package discount. I will look at going to Vonage or some other VOIP provider. I really wish Verizon would get FIOS out here (I'm told at least a year) because I'd seriously look at that for a bundle package. I mean, I asked people who have had Navigator over a year now (Lincoln) and they are saying that it still has major issues! I brought it up early and the replies didn't give me much faith. This software should be running almost flawlessly by now. The only other option I can see is if third party manufacturers start marketing set top boxes with features beyond what Time Warner has. I'd pay for a well equipped STB that worked. Some one should look at making one under the OCAP blanket!

Funnily enough I moved away from D* this time last year due to the problems they were having with their new DVR and its software and the way they abandoned TiVO. To be fair, a year later, even with aggressive attempts to fix the product, they are still having problems with the HR20.

Is the HR20 in better shape than the 8300HDC with Navigator? Probably, but neither are worth the money IMHO.

I think the only other real option is DISH's VIP722. CNET seems to like it. The downside is DISH seemingly will be behind D* with respect to HD content shortly, but it seems to be the only HD DVR out there that is stable and has a future too.

Ted

Right now with Navigator replaceing Passport it seems SARA is their most stable platform.Thank god i'm still on sara.Missing a few features but stable as a rock. SARA 1.89.17 Greensboro NC

TWC KC rolled out the dreaded Navigator firmware update for SA8300HD on 8/29 (Wednesday). That evening we sat down to watch The Daily Show over dinner and ALL of our recorded content had been deleted and the new (ugly) interface was on-screen. Immediately, we noticed the following:

* All old recordings deleted
* No recording of any type allowed; series cannot be set to record
* Live TV not buffered/rewindable

So, essentially, the new firmware doesn't have a driver for the SATA controller in these boxes (ie. it cannot see the hard drive).

On 8/30 (Thursday) I called and a rep in Kansas City apologized and said that they were aware of the issue and the engineering team was working on a fix that would be rolled out within 24 hours.

On 9/1 (Saturday) it hadn't happened yet. I called and another rep. in Kansas City apologized and told me that they had a fix but that it could not be rolled out until exactly one week from the time that it was broken -- and that all deleted content would be restored. So it would be rolled out this Wednesday (9/5/07). She gave us a $20 credit.

So, today is Thursday (9/6) eight days after they screwed everything up. The update never came. I still don't have a working DVR and when I just called and got transferred FOUR times until I ended up in Kansas City's call center, the rep. told me, "They are working on a fix for your box and you should leave it on so that it will get it." When I pressed for a specific time, he repeatedly said "They are working on a fix for your box." -- almost robot-like. I replied, "I'm not going to get any further with you am I?" and he just repeated, "They are working on a fix for your box."

So, it looks like managerial damage control has set in and they don't have any clue who's got who's head up which ass.

Hi,

I'm an NYC TWC customer with an SA8300HDC.

Could someone please point me to a faq or post that defines, SARA, passport, navigator, SDV, OCAP, and other terms that are popping up frequently in this thread?

Much appreciated!Someone else might be inclined to post defintitions that have been posted numerous times. Most can be found on wikipedia or google with just a minimum amount of work. For SDV just google switched digital video, I think the rest can be found directly.

Just called and pressed my luck with a second rep. in Kansas City. This person knew more:

Supposedly, both of the 8300 models are affected by the DVR bug. They tried to fix it yesterday and today -- apparently it takes that long to update all the devices on the grid -- but what was thought was going to work turned out not to. SO, they are collecting the serial numbers of all devices that meet the 8300 specification and sending a new firmware within a week that will contain specific instructions to format the hard disk hoping that this will make the recording feature work again. Of course, all recorded content > /dev/null.

And they haven't actually tested this to see whether it works, yet...

I just had my DVRs "fixed" by a TWC tech. Essentially, he called a number and had them reactivate both my boxes. He told me that, when I returned my broken 8300HD, a bug in the system disabled all my boxes. He also complained that the customer support folks on the phone could have fixed my problem, but all they care about is how fast they get customers off the phone since that is what bonuses and raises are based on. He also stated that cable cards are pretty horrible to support since technical documentation is virtually nonexistent. He also was very anti-Navigator and pro-Passport. He cannot do anything to a Navigator box without calling back to the office to get them to work on it remotely whereas Passport he can control through his laptop in his van.

Ted

Ted,

Wow!!! You got a great honest tech there! Sadly, he is probably 10/1000 field techs that are willing to speak the truth about the problems/issues with the new Navigator system. The best I got was from a supervisor years ago when I was getting the typical "run around" from TWC on two buggy digital boxes. He said that the CSR's "don't know anything" and just follow the script.

There ARE exceptions, but you have to be reasonably lucky to get those types to talk to them or have them come out if there is a problem. Seriously, though, if any of you are not happy with your TWC service or services and you are getting a run around, call and speak to a supervisor. When I did that, they were VERY helpful.

Jack

Funnily enough I moved away from D* this time last year due to the problems they were having with their new DVR and its software and the way they abandoned TiVO. To be fair, a year later, even with aggressive attempts to fix the product, they are still having problems with the HR20.

Is the HR20 in better shape than the 8300HDC with Navigator? Probably, but neither are worth the money IMHO.

I think the only other real option is DISH's VIP722. CNET seems to like it. The downside is DISH seemingly will be behind D* with respect to HD content shortly, but it seems to be the only HD DVR out there that is stable and has a future too.

Ted

Well, personally, Dish Network will not be an option for me simply because the installation and wiring is a nightmare and I'm not going to have them drilling and running multiple lines through the floors so they can piggy back receivers. The unit may be good, but until the do away with the back feeding and RF wiring, I won't have anything to do with them. I prefer to have one or two lines run to each location (I'd have 5 - I'd drop two outlets and move them to the rooms that need two drops) with it's own STB. A current Dish install would require up to 4 coax leads to ONE outlet or at the very least 3 cables at each outlet. With DirecTV, I could just lose my existing cable distribution amp and replace it with an 8 way multi switch. Plus, DirecTV is slated to have a plethora of HD content soon.



Just called and pressed my luck with a second rep. in Kansas City. This person knew more:

Supposedly, both of the 8300 models are affected by the DVR bug. They tried to fix it yesterday and today -- apparently it takes that long to update all the devices on the grid -- but what was thought was going to work turned out not to. SO, they are collecting the serial numbers of all devices that meet the 8300 specification and sending a new firmware within a week that will contain specific instructions to format the hard disk hoping that this will make the recording feature work again. Of course, all recorded content > /dev/null.

And they haven't actually tested this to see whether it works, yet...

Well, I no longer put faith in ANYTHING TWC reps tell me. I'm having a totally unrelated issue with my brothers RoadRunner account. He can't login and I've talked to at least 5 different reps who gave me 5 different answers. They can't even confirm what his actual assigned login info is?!?!? There seems to be mass confusion because he is in a former Adelphia area. I asked why does this matter? He was never an Adelphia subscriber and this was a new connect. It's infuriating after being on the phone for TWO hours straight through three transfers who were supposed to stay on the line and didn't! So each transfer had no idea what I was talking about and then the connection magically dropped and the call was lost. I'm extremely angry right now!!!

Well, personally, Dish Network will not be an option for me simply because the installation and wiring is a nightmare and I'm not going to have them drilling and running multiple lines through the floors so they can piggy back receivers. The unit may be good, but until the do away with the back feeding and RF wiring, I won't have anything to do with them. I prefer to have one or two lines run to each location (I'd have 5 - I'd drop two outlets and move them to the rooms that need two drops) with it's own STB. A current Dish install would require up to 4 coax leads to ONE outlet or at the very least 3 cables at each outlet. With DirecTV, I could just lose my existing cable distribution amp and replace it with an 8 way multi switch. Plus, DirecTV is slated to have a plethora of HD content soon.


The back feeding is optional AFAIK. I guess it depends on how many HD DVRs you want to pay for. If you setup the 722 as a single TV unit, it only needs 2 cables, just like the HR20 -- 3 if you include OTA, but also just like HR20. But alas, this is getting off the topic of Navigator.

Ted

Yea, I was venting in my last rant. I could try to get more in depth info on Dish and come to think of it, I have 4 DP301 STB's here from when I used to be a sub. Anyway, I'm not going to worry about it until we actually get Navigator which is at least 6 months away. My point was people are looking at options because Navigator has been deployed a long time elsewhere and is still a disaster.

That looks way slicker than the Motorola box they gave me. However the HDTV isn't as bad as DirecTV and the 10Mbit internet is light speed compared to my 300kbps DSL i used to have :)

The back feeding is optional AFAIK. I guess it depends on how many HD DVRs you want to pay for. If you setup the 722 as a single TV unit, it only needs 2 cables, just like the HR20 -- 3 if you include OTA, but also just like HR20. But alas, this is getting off the topic of Navigator.

Ted

In fact, you can diplex to the VIR722/622/222 boxes with a single coax to operate both tuners, and can even run both tuners, and the backfeed off one feed to the box (with it combined outside, and split-out at the STB). And the RF backfeed is optional...but provides the advantage of creating a two room DVR that all content can be viewed on two separate TVs (and the single / multi room mode is selectable anytime by a button on the front of the DVR)

Hmmmm, I may give Dish another look. The other big question is can the unit seamlessly integrate all the OTA content into the guide and record my locals. Nevertheless, I don't want to hijack this thread to be about Dish. I will weigh my options again after we get Navigator. I am willing to give TWC a chance to get it right. If they can't then I'm out. Maybe by that time FiOS will even be an option here!

Hmmmm, I may give Dish another look. The other big question is can the unit seamlessly integrate all the OTA content into the guide and record my locals. Nevertheless, I don't want to hijack this thread to be about Dish. I will weigh my options again after we get Navigator. I am willing to give TWC a chance to get it right. If they can't then I'm out. Maybe by that time FiOS will even be an option here!

Don't know first hand regarding the OTA guide integration, but I believe it is fully integrated, and you can record 3 HD feeds at one time (2 sat, 1 OTA)...check out the Dish forum.

I am on SARA 1.89.17.I hope to have it as long as I can.I will give Navigator a try when it comes.If it's not fixed by then it's direct tv for me.Also TWC can say good bye to my Digital phone and Road runner also.If Navigator is fixed i will stay happy.Here's hopeing for the best but expecting the worst. SARA 1.89.17 Greensboro NC

I'm on my second 8300HDC and this one allows my external sata drive to work properly. However I still get the dreaded channel not available when trying to record something after a couple of days of not rebooting the pos. I can live with some of the functionality differences between navigator and passport, but when it can't record reliably, that sucks.

Given that we have many reports of folks getting Navigator and not being able to actually record anything, I think the Navigator programming team consists of 20 marketing folks, 13 accountants, 7 executives and one non English speaking 19 year old Pakistani porogrammer (no insult to them meant, one could say it's not the programmers fault they are putting non-functional software into production, it's those 7 execs who are spending more time contemplating their next Bentley than paying attention to the working software they do NOT yet have)...

And how many years have they been working on this? How much hassle are TWC willing to put up with just to save a percentage of their $11 billion revenue going to Aptiv. They should just suck it up and move to the SDV version of Passport. Since even with two set top software systems to reverse engineer they still can't get the basic features working on Navigator!

Hi,

I'm an NYC TWC customer with an SA8300HDC.

Could someone please point me to a faq or post that defines, SARA, passport, navigator, SDV, OCAP, and other terms that are popping up frequently in this thread?

Much appreciated!
SARA refers to user interface, etc. developed by Scientific Atlanta for their STB/DVRs.
PASSPORT refers to user interface, etc. developed by Aptiv Digital (formerly Pioneer).
BOTH are based on the underlying POWERTV realtime operating system.
PASSPORT versions run on S/A and some Pioneer, PACE and Motorola STB/DVRs.

The OCAP "middleware" runs on top of POWERTV (et. al.) and is intended
to permit a variety of new user interfaces (plus bells and whistles) to be
downloaded from ANY host cable system to run on ANY of the new generation
of STB/DVR/HDTV's, to be available "any day now" at retail stores.

Which will make it possible to move your fully capable (SDV, two-way)
DVR and iDCR HDTVs that YOU OWN from one cable system to another.

NAVIGATOR (and iGuide for COMCAST/COX) refer to new user interfaces
developed to run on top of OCAP "middleware", although it appears the current
NAVIGATOR and iGuide releases may not be running on full-up OCAP....

Wikipedia has good articles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CableCARD
See links to Switched Digital Video, OCAP, et. al.
and also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cable_television_in_the_United_States

When I came home today, the 8300HD had been formatted and all recording features were restored but all old content was lost. Also, the broadcast content now correctly travels to the TV in its native resolution if the TV can natively handle the signal resolution.

And how many years have they been working on this? How much hassle are TWC willing to put up with just to save a percentage of their $11 billion revenue going to Aptiv. They should just suck it up and move to the SDV version of Passport. Since even with two set top software systems to reverse engineer they still can't get the basic features working on Navigator!

Truthfully, if I were running the show there, I WOULD go the route of creating one single software platform to serve all my markets. There really are a TON of very good reasons to do it. The fact that TWC is 100% incapable of doing something that isn't all that complicated (to someone who has some real software development experience) speaks to the utter ineptitude of their management. The mere fact that they release unfinished software full of bugs in production would get a host of folks fired on the spot... as long as there's someone with a clue.

Truthfully, if I were running the show there, I WOULD go the route of creating one single software platform to serve all my markets. There really are a TON of very good reasons to do it. The fact that TWC is 100% incapable of doing something that isn't all that complicated (to someone who has some real software development experience) speaks to the utter ineptitude of their management. The mere fact that they release unfinished software full of bugs in production would get a host of folks fired on the spot... as long as there's someone with a clue.

Very true!

And what is so unfortunate is that Navigator COULD have the potential to be a good system and maybe in time just as good as Passport or better. BUT, that will never happen the way that TWC is doing business with this software now. They need several qualified software development engineers to work on this system and get it up to AT LEAST Passport standards. They are going to start losing customers on the Navigator system if the software is not up to standards. An UPDATE is understandable to have some bugs for the first couple months after its release, but after that, it is expected to be better than the product or service that proceeded it. For TWC to be screwing around with the bugs that are still in this system after over a year of being in the field is reprehensible. And these are buggy things that users claim should NOT be buggy at this late stage! (i.e They are switched to Navigator and now can't record a series on their DVR because of it????! I mean, that is something that should be a fluke of nature to 2% of the population where things should work fine for a long time after a simple box reboot.) This should not be happening to many subscribers after this upgrade.

Passport was SOOOOOOOO much more stable even a few months after its release. TWC should just pay for the upgrade and forget about Navigator.

Jack

I happened to be browsing this link...
http://www.twcrochester.com/sandiego/products/cable/navigatorfaq.html#storage

Can anyone comfirm that shows will only be kept 14 days as the FAQ suggests?

I happened to be browsing this link...
http://www.twcrochester.com/sandiego/products/cable/navigatorfaq.html#storage

Can anyone comfirm that shows will only be kept 14 days as the FAQ suggests?

It doesn't say that recordings are only kept for 14 days...

It says the recording log is kept for 14 days - the log tells you about conflicts and deletions.

Truthfully, if I were running the show there, I WOULD go the route of creating one single software platform to serve all my markets. There really are a TON of very good reasons to do it. The fact that TWC is 100% incapable of doing something that isn't all that complicated (to someone who has some real software development experience) speaks to the utter ineptitude of their management. The mere fact that they release unfinished software full of bugs in production would get a host of folks fired on the spot... as long as there's someone with a clue.

If only TWC would NOT install Navigator until all the bugs were fixed first! :(

But they aren't the only ones screwing up. I've been looking into ATT UVerse lately as it is supposedly coming to my area late 07/early 08, but they've got even more bugs to work out. I think I'd stay away from them for a few years until they really get the hang of things. Below is a list of UVerse DVR problems I got off a UVerse user forum:

*Recordings appear in Recorded TV but are unable to play (0 minutes).
*Scheduled recordings fail to record full program correctly/are not seen in "Recorded TV"
*Recordings begin 2-5 minutes after program start time
*DVR content freezes after a certain point and cannot be viewed
*No DVR warnings show when scheduling more hours than available memory.
*Recorded TV plays back with no sound.
*DVR Recordings terminating too soon
*DVR series recordings do not record when First Run Recording is selected.
*DVR series recordings do not distinguish between "new" and "old" episodes.

Link: http://www.uverseusers.com/component/option,com_smf/Itemid,2/topic,503.msg20550/#msg20550

Sounds like they hired some of the genius TWC programers to help them out.

I agree that if the bugs were fixed in Navigator it could become a very useable guide simular to Passport and Sara.But at this point it is just not there.

It doesn't say that recordings are only kept for 14 days...

It says the recording log is kept for 14 days - the log tells you about conflicts and deletions.

Ah I see, so the log you get when you hit "List" isn't the same as the list of recorded shows you get when you hit "List" with passport. Thanks.

If many of you are still having problems with your Navigator upgrade I would suggest the following:

If you are a good letter writer and like to do word processing, you should send a letter directly to the President or head of your local TWC office on MS Word or a compatible Word Processing program. Keep it short, direct, and simple, but list the problems that you are still having with Navigator. Don't make your letter long or full of negativity, just state the facts of your specific problems with Navigator. (i.e can't record series well, reboot issues, whatever)

If you have gone through say 3 or more boxes since the upgrade, mention this in your letters, and suggest that this could be a problem with the software. (i.e I get a new box 5 times and nothing has changed) You could list any features that you like about Navigator as well, and what you might like to see in the future.

Than close out in some sort of positive way in hopes of getting a favorable response. (i.e Thank you for your services and programing on Time Warner Cable.)

The more local office heads that see similarities and patterns with the specific types of problems with Navigator with people taking the time to write actual letters instead of e-mails or phone calls to some clueless CSR on the other end, the greater likelihood that the problems you are having will be worked out before Navigator gets rolled out nationally.

The reason for this is that it will help local division Presidents communicate with each other as to the types of problems that are still occurring with this software. Maybe if enough people write, more of these issues will get fixed. If you don't have time to write, I would contact your local TWC office with your specific Navigator issues and ask to speak to a supervisor. Additionally, some TWC websites (I know Milwaukee used to have this) contain surveys about Navigator that you can fill out that are specific to your issues with the software. Tell the higher-ups your good points and bad points with TWC Navigator.

It can really make a difference.

Jack

If you have written letters to TWC Presidents, Managers, or other higher-ups, at your local division, concerning Navigator or other issues, please post any results you may have received. This may help us understand the roll-out plans for this software, attention to bugs that still remain in the system, as well as any other important information that you might want to share with the board. Thank you!

Jack

Just a note that we have 8300 HDC with SARA 1.90 on TWC here in Honolulu. I am getting some drop outs on live shows. I am requestion my old DVR back, 8300HD

Hi dclucidly -

I'm in KC too... I had tremendous problems with Navigator working with my Tivo at the beginning of the year (at the time I had a non-HD box, can't remember exactly what the model was). After 3 calls to complain they finally gave me 3 months for free on their DVR 8300 box (ended up with HD as they were out of regular) back in March. This new box still had Passport on it, and this solved all of my Tivo issues (was having channel changing issues and the box was turning off 1-3x per day thus Tivoing black screens).

I recently got the postcard saying that Navigator would be rolling out over the next few months, and I am dreading that day!!! So far, my box appears to still be using Passport (the graphics look the same). I don't use their DVR functions. Is it really obvious when you got Navigator on your box? Do the graphics look different? From your earlier posts it sounded like all boxes had be "upgraded" but maybe it's still coming out in waves...

Will SA 3250HD non-DVR boxes ever be "upgraded" to Navigator?

Hello all. I stumbled across this forum by accident and had to register and post. I've been on the web for more years than I care to remember, and I believe this is the first time I have ever done this, but felt I had to.

I live in Lincoln, NE so I have been living with this debacle since early on. I started reading this thread from the beginning and was quite amused by the comments I read. I then skipped to the last several pages and was glad to see I wasn't the only one disappointed. I could live with bugs as long as they were being worked out, but my major issues aren't bugs. It's the loss of functionality with the "upgrade". I've only recently run into the missing recordings, and it's only happened once or twice. These bugs are something I know can be fixed (albeit not very fast by Time Warner Cable).

The beginning of college football season once again reminded me how poor this software is. I just wanted to see what games were going to be on. Should be simple for a box dedicated to watching television. Right? It's quicker and less frustrating for me to jump in my car, drive to a store across town, buy a newspaper, light it on fire, and finally dig through the ashes to find what games are on. FWIW, I had Passport before and was very happy with it.

It's been so bad in Lincoln that the city council got involved. Nothings really come of it, but it shows the frustration of the consumers. Apparently the cable company could care less about customer satisfaction as they are sticking with Navigator. I feel that the least they should do is lower my bill since they took away usability.

I have emailed TWC, but I didn't even get a courtesy reply. Here are some excerpts from my email from December of last year:

From the guide screen I used to be able to push the "a" button to jump to the next 100. If I wanted to see what was on the High Def tier I could press guide, then "a" and I was at the beginning of the 100s, a short scroll to the IN-HD and HDNET. Next I could press "a" again and get to the beginning of the digital tier in the 200s - easily skipping the on demand channels to get to where I want to go. Now I have to scroll through all these channels, or type in the number on the keypad. You may think this is a good thing as I may find a pay per view I want to watch while scrolling past. Not with the new software. If I scroll fast all programming information disappears until I stop. Not only have I lost the "a" key functionality, I can't scroll quickly or the programming data can't keep up. This has not changed. If you hold the arrow button to scroll, all the programming information disappears.

Finding a program has never been more difficult. If I was watching a program and wanted to find out if it was on again, or if it was a series, when the next episode was on I pressed guide, then the "c" key which brought me immediately to a list of that show. Now I have to use the "b" key to find a show, then either scroll through every show known to man, or press "b" again and use the lame on screen keyboard. And speaking of the find show functionality, just trying to find out what football games are on today drives me to the Internet or the newspaper. If I hit "b" to find shows, then go to category, then select sports, then select football, I get a huge list of programs that may or may not have something to do with football. I can't tell at a glance however, I have to select each show and hope I get more information. That's the way it works.

Pressing more information from the guide used to give me more information. Actors, more plot, a genre. Now it is useless. It gives nothing. I can't even tell if a series is a new show or a repeat. Pressing more information while watching a program used to give a banner that didn't cover a quarter of the screen as it does now. Pressing it twice would put your program in a window and then give you the information. Now it just covers your program up. Not really a problem since the information button is useless now.

I'm sorry this post is so long, but I've been very frustrated. TWC has worked out some of the early problems. They've also added some features. But most of the "new" features were always available in Passport. I waited several months to email them hoping to find something positive to start the email out with, but even now there is nothing. The reason I'm posting is first to warn you all of what's coming. I know others before me already have. Second is that maybe if all TWC customers across the country take a minute to complain to TWC we'll see some positive action. From their actions so far, I'm guessing that as long as their bottom line doesn't fall, they really won't care about complaints. We don't have a lot of options in Lincoln. I used to be a Dish customer, and am seriously contemplating it again.

Hi dclucidly -

I'm in KC too... I had tremendous problems with Navigator working with my Tivo at the beginning of the year (at the time I had a non-HD box, can't remember exactly what the model was). After 3 calls to complain they finally gave me 3 months for free on their DVR 8300 box (ended up with HD as they were out of regular) back in March. This new box still had Passport on it, and this solved all of my Tivo issues (was having channel changing issues and the box was turning off 1-3x per day thus Tivoing black screens).

I recently got the postcard saying that Navigator would be rolling out over the next few months, and I am dreading that day!!! So far, my box appears to still be using Passport (the graphics look the same). I don't use their DVR functions. Is it really obvious when you got Navigator on your box? Do the graphics look different? From your earlier posts it sounded like all boxes had be "upgraded" but maybe it's still coming out in waves...

Hi indiblue,

A question for you (or anybody)

I was just wonder why you would have a Tivo and a DVR? I always thought that if you have cable you get a DVR and if you have dish you get a Tivo? We all know about the Navigator problems, but assume you had one configuration (Tivo/Dish) or the other (cable/DVR), why would you need the other configuration?

Here is another thought, assume that people have a fully functioning DVR with Passport or Sara software from TWC or a Tivo. What can a DVR do that a Tivo can not do and vice-versa?

Notice that I did not include Navigator in my comparison inquiry, because at the rate TWC is going with that hideous thing, it will NEVER be fully functional!

Jack

There are several reasons why some people have a TiVo with cable service. One reason is the TiVo has the reputation of being more reliable in recording shows and has an easier to use interface. But just having a TiVo currently prevents using VOD, SDV (Switched Digital Video), and/or other interactive services so some people have both a TiVo and a cable set top box. TiVo is working with CableLabs to fix this.
Hi indiblue,

A question for you (or anybody)

I was just wonder why you would have a Tivo and a DVR? I always thought that if you have cable you get a DVR and if you have dish you get a Tivo? We all know about the Navigator problems, but assume you had one configuration (Tivo/Dish) or the other (cable/DVR), why would you need the other configuration?

Here is another thought, assume that people have a fully functioning DVR with Passport or Sara software from TWC or a Tivo. What can a DVR do that a Tivo can not do and vice-versa?

Notice that I did not include Navigator in my comparison inquiry, because at the rate TWC is going with that hideous thing, it will NEVER be fully functional!

Jack

has anyone, particularly in the nyc area, been flashed with navigator on their existing box?
this is all very disturbing.

I had a problem with my Passport-based box - the recordings were getting lost... so I called TWC in Raleigh/Durham. They were nice and made a Sunday call to my house to replace the Passport-based box. BIG mistake. The tech had just received four new boxes from the warehouse - three were DOA - each for a different reason (talk about bad quality assurance). The fourth "worked".

I have so many complaints about this new box and the new software, that I will call tomorrow and ask for an older-Passport based box ASAP. I will also write a letter to the local president and VP of services (following up on the great recommendation of SnatchMan).

I will also send a copy to our local Better Business Bureau and our Consumer Protection Office. Sending notes to the BB and other local offices gets attention since the cable companies are reviewed annually for practices and quality - AND - I am tired of the problems I am having.

I will come back and post any replies I receive.

I had a problem with my Passport-based box - the recordings were getting lost... so I called TWC in Raleigh/Durham. They were nice and made a Sunday call to my house to replace the Passport-based box. BIG mistake. The tech had just received four new boxes from the warehouse - three were DOA - each for a different reason (talk about bad quality assurance). The fourth "worked".

I have so many complaints about this new box and the new software, that I will call tomorrow and ask for an older-Passport based box ASAP. I will also write a letter to the local president and VP of services (following up on the great recommendation of SnatchMan).

I will also send a copy to our local Better Business Bureau and our Consumer Protection Office. Sending notes to the BB and other local offices gets attention since the cable companies are reviewed annually for practices and quality - AND - I am tired of the problems I am having.

I will come back and post any replies I receive.

I had a similar problem with both of my Passport 8300HD boxes. I will be moving my business to DISH very shortly, assuming I can get signal, otherwise I may be forced to go back to DirecTV. Either way, it will be better than TWC is right now.

Ted

Still with Passport (so far),

But I am curious as to how many of you received the Navigator Guide as a download update WITHOUT a company notification?

Jack

My 8300HDC crashed at midnight tonight. It keeps getting stuck at E-13 on reboot. :sigh:

My 8300HDC crashed at midnight tonight. It keeps getting stuck at E-13 on reboot. :sigh:

Hi Ted,

Try unplugging the converter from the wall or from the surge protector for at least 10 minutes to flush out any strange data between the box and the server. Than plug it back in and wait for the thing to reboot. If nothing happens after another 20 minutes, (yea, I've heard it can take that long..........ridiculous!) call cable.

Sounds like dish is looking better for many of you all the time! Why oh why did TWC mess up with a good system in Passport, which was fine to begin with?

Jack

TWC wants to be an all digital system at some point. The main reason for moving away from Passport(and SARA) is two fold: First -The want one national platform that supports SDV (I know SARA does but then they would still have two different software platforms). It makes everything easier from call center support to updates and patches if they have just one version of software. Second - They don't want to pay a third party company licence fees for software. I understand ad even agree with point one of why they are doing this. I totally disagree with point two in how they are going about it. If they could make a guide in house that looked good and was functional (actually WORKED!) then I'd be all for them developing their own. It's become obvious that they cannot do it. They should revert to getting a standard platform from an experienced company that specializes in this because sticking with Navigator is going to bite them in the rear. IMHO, it already has!

Does anyone that has SARA want to switch to NAVIGATOR?Navigator has some features I would like on Sara (IF THEY WORKED).I am on SARA 1.89.17 and given the current state of NAVIGATOR wish to keep my SARA.Any other Sara users have a opinion? SARA 1.89.17 Greensboro NC

TWC wants to be an all digital system at some point. The main reason for moving away from Passport(and SARA) is two fold: First -The want one national platform that supports SDV (I know SARA does but then they would still have two different software platforms). It makes everything easier from call center support to updates and patches if they have just one version of software. Second - They don't want to pay a third party company license fees for software. I understand ad even agree with point one of why they are doing this. I totally disagree with point two in how they are going about it. If they could make a guide in house that looked good and was functional (actually WORKED!) then I'd be all for them developing their own. It's become obvious that they cannot do it. They should revert to getting a standard platform from an experienced company that specializes in this because sticking with Navigator is going to bite them in the rear. IMHO, it already has!

Hi Ben,

Yes I am sure that all TWC Navigator subscribers will co-sign the above. From all I have heard and read there really is almost NOTHING positive about this system. To the average Joe and Jane six-pack if they are Digital Phone subscribers with Navigator, you also get Caller ID on TV in most areas. But that is about it.

What about those poor people with legacy boxes with limited memory! OMG! Navigator barely functions as an IPG on TWC's advanced DVR technology, try running it on an old Pioneer digital converter. We have learned that there will be two different versions eventually released to "support?" the legacy boxes. This ought to be good!

I foresee great difficulty for TWC unless they go the route of hiring an independent experienced programing development team to handle this software. The company is trying to pretend competency in software development and design for Navigator, which they clearly do not have.

But this raises another interesting subtopic. Friends, neighbors, and myself have Time Warner's other services like Digital Phone and Road Runner. Most are thrilled what that, as I am. So why is it that in most cases they can do a good job with Road Runner and Digital Phone, but can't do the same with the new Navigator Guide? I mean it is JUST a little digital program guide!

No offense to anyone in the industry, but there are cable jokes that go around all the time like to work for any cable company you just have to "know how to drive a truck and climb a pole!" What kind of PR clientèle does that message send to those who rely on cable services for business, news, education, and information? One wonders if these are the same people who are programing Navigator?

A plus is that it really can't get much worse before it gets better.

Jack

A second suggestion is since Sara must cost less than Passport why not go national with Sara until Navigator is ready.Sara may not have all Passport features but it is rock stable.The 1.89.17 Sara software has enought features to keep passport folk happy til Navigator is ready.Adding all TWC systems to sara could drive the license fee down to TWC.This might not be the perfect solution but it is a solution for the short run (year or two) till Navigator is ready for prime time, SARA 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

Hi Ted,

Try unplugging the converter from the wall or from the surge protector for at least 10 minutes to flush out any strange data between the box and the server. Than plug it back in and wait for the thing to reboot. If nothing happens after another 20 minutes, (yea, I've heard it can take that long..........ridiculous!) call cable.

Sounds like dish is looking better for many of you all the time! Why oh why did TWC mess up with a good system in Passport, which was fine to begin with?

Jack

Thanks, Jack. I had already tried several permutations along the lines you suggested. Eventually, I gave up and went to sleep. I left it in the E-13 mode. This morning, when I woke up, it was back to normal (whatever that means). It must have finally gotten around to clearing that state.

Ted

How is TWC going to handle the rollout on SD Motorola boxes? are next gen ones being produced by motorola, or how does it work?

A second suggestion is since Sara must cost less than Passport why not go national with Sara until Navigator is ready.Sara may not have all Passport features but it is rock stable.The 1.89.17 Sara software has enought features to keep passport folk happy til Navigator is ready.Adding all TWC systems to sara could drive the license fee down to TWC.This might not be the perfect solution but it is a solution for the short run (year or two) till Navigator is ready for prime time, SARA 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NCWell that comes down to compatibility with the rest of the system. SARA is not compatible with a system built for Passport. What cable is doing is moving to OCAP Middleware - so the user interface software (Navigator, etc.) can be independent of the cable system architecture.

Hi dclucidly -

I'm in KC too... I had tremendous problems with Navigator working with my Tivo at the beginning of the year (at the time I had a non-HD box, can't remember exactly what the model was). After 3 calls to complain they finally gave me 3 months for free on their DVR 8300 box (ended up with HD as they were out of regular) back in March. This new box still had Passport on it, and this solved all of my Tivo issues (was having channel changing issues and the box was turning off 1-3x per day thus Tivoing black screens).

I recently got the postcard saying that Navigator would be rolling out over the next few months, and I am dreading that day!!! So far, my box appears to still be using Passport (the graphics look the same). I don't use their DVR functions. Is it really obvious when you got Navigator on your box? Do the graphics look different? From your earlier posts it sounded like all boxes had be "upgraded" but maybe it's still coming out in waves...

I'm from KC too... I have (2) SA8300HD's and only one got the Navigator "upgrade". And yes, Indie... you will definitely be able to tell when you get it. The colors, graphics and the guide search to name a few are all different. TWCKC said it could be MANY weeks before my other box gets updated ("hammered"). The one with Nav reboots about every other day (usually right in the middle of shows being recorded), randomly fails to record scheduled shows (no reason in the log either), and generally seems to have less available disk space than before (though I need to verify that). I was already up to 87% and didn't have an extreme number of shows.

I think if they don't get the dvr bugs fixed by the time the new season starts in a couple weeks, it's going to get pretty ugly for TW. I'm going to go back to them and see if I can get a passport version, but I'm pretty sure it will just get updated again. Stay tuned...

so the user interface software (Navigator, etc.) can be independent of the cable system architecture.

Finally someone who understands the reasons for TW moving to Navigator, it's not really about money (well indirectly it is). If Navigator is truely written in JAVA (JAVA's claim to fame is: WORA=write once, run anywhere). This means that Navigator could run on a retail box or even a TV that supports OCAP.

Finally someone who understands the reasons for TW moving to Navigator, it's not really about money (well indirectly it is). If Navigator is truely written in JAVA (JAVA's claim to fame is: WRRA=write once, run anywhere). This means that Navigator could run on a retail box or even a TV that supports OCAP.


The problem is it won't run on their own boxes :D

Hi Ben,

Yes I am sure that all TWC Navigator subscribers will co-sign the above. From all I have heard and read there really is almost NOTHING positive about this system. To the average Joe and Jane six-pack if they are Digital Phone subscribers with Navigator, you also get Caller ID on TV in most areas. But that is about it.

What about those poor people with legacy boxes with limited memory! OMG! Navigator barely functions as an IPG on TWC's advanced DVR technology, try running it on an old Pioneer digital converter. We have learned that there will be two different versions eventually released to "support?" the legacy boxes. This ought to be good!

I foresee great difficulty for TWC unless they go the route of hiring an independent experienced programing development team to handle this software. The company is trying to pretend competency in software development and design for Navigator, which they clearly do not have.

But this raises another interesting subtopic. Friends, neighbors, and myself have Time Warner's other services like Digital Phone and Road Runner. Most are thrilled what that, as I am. So why is it that in most cases they can do a good job with Road Runner and Digital Phone, but can't do the same with the new Navigator Guide? I mean it is JUST a little digital program guide!

No offense to anyone in the industry, but there are cable jokes that go around all the time like to work for any cable company you just have to "know how to drive a truck and climb a pole!" What kind of PR clientèle does that message send to those who rely on cable services for business, news, education, and information? One wonders if these are the same people who are programing Navigator?

A plus is that it really can't get much worse before it gets better.

Jack

I just got a card in the mail saying that my old Pioneer HD box will be getting the upgrade next week (I forget the model). It's a box a rarely use anymore, and it was always kind of slow to begin with. I will have to let you know how the upgrade(if you can call it that) goes.. Btw I am in the KC area.

Jason

Hi Ben,

Yes I am sure that all TWC Navigator subscribers will co-sign the above. From all I have heard and read there really is almost NOTHING positive about this system. To the average Joe and Jane six-pack if they are Digital Phone subscribers with Navigator, you also get Caller ID on TV in most areas. But that is about it.


Jack

I agree. Right now as it stands, I am a satisfied TWC subscriber. They are doing a good job in my market. The Digital Phone and Roadrunner have been rock solid. I had no intention of even considering satellite again until this Navigator debacle unfolded. I will give them a chance to see how things are once they deploy it here, but if after six months they don't have a workable (functional) version then I will drop the video portion of my package. I am willing to forgive some system bugs as there will always be some, but major malfunctions like these other areas are having will not cut the mustard. They might, however, cut the cheese! :D

Before my source in TWC moved to a new job in another division I was told the sara rollout would start in mid aug.IT DID NOT-this leaves me to belive that the sara rollout had been put on hold or they are leaveing it to each division President.I have heard of no sara systems being Navigated so I am hopeing a freeze is in place.Anyone with diffrent information please let us know. Sara 1.89.1 Greensboro NC

Sounds like dish is looking better for many of you all the time! Why oh why did TWC mess up with a good system in Passport, which was fine to begin with?

Jack

Oh does that ever hit the nail on the head!

Still, for us Passport folks, there were 2 significant issues, one being the "trick play" bug the other being SDV support. While both COULD be easily solved, it is crystal clear the decision was to abandon all hope for both issues being addressed in favor of this Navigator disaster.

For my location, "going satellite" is problematic. Most if us do NOT have it as a choice AND those is us who MAY be able MAY have an issue with Internet connectivity. Some of us actually need the good speed RR now gives us (as in compared to DSL which is about 1/2 the speed of cable). So going satellite and wanting to keep RR for it's speed, we would have to pay up an additional 15 bucks per month (RR without TV service to TWC means 15 bucks more).

Folks in that position can only cross their fingers that FIOS gets to their location. Problem is that I just can't see that event actually happening for at least 2 more years. Maybe longer.

Before my source in TWC moved to a new job in another division I was told the sara rollout would start in mid aug.IT DID NOT-this leaves me to belive that the sara rollout had been put on hold or they are leaveing it to each division President.I have heard of no sara systems being Navigated so I am hopeing a freeze is in place.Anyone with diffrent information please let us know. Sara 1.89.1 Greensboro NC

SARA can do SDV right now, Passport can not. TWC made the decision to NOT deploy a SDV enabled Passport but to convert those markets to Navigator. SDV rollout very much IS critical to TWC or they stand to lose huge numbers of customers to satellite and FIOS. The decision was quite correct. BUT they really blew it by NOT getting the right folks to create Navigator AND they compounded that mistake big time by shoving pre-alpha quality software in production.

Right now, at least in my market, I "see" them all (TWC execs on their day or two in the office as opposed to the golf links) siting around with very smug looks on their faces. They KNOW that for most of us the only choice to give up entirely on broadcast and ONLY watch DVDs on out TVs. It is because of this and the fact I anticipate FAR less going forward than what I am getting now (Passport vs. Navigator) that I plan to switch almost sight unseen to FIOS in 2-3 years when it's available to me.

Everyone who has been Navigated,

Can you please repost the instructions for how to tell what version of the Navigator you are running and than each user can post his/her version number? I have a theory, and it is JUST a theory that the reason why some areas may be having problems is because they have not had the test rollout that we had here in Milwaukee back in January.

I heard that it wasn't as bad as Lincoln Nebraska. However, there were still significant problems. They seem to be releasing Navigator at a much slower pace in Milwaukee. When we had a question about our DVR box, the CSR said that when you get cable here, it is still about a 50/50 chance as to weather or not you get Navigator. Most everyone that I know still has Passport on their DVR's. Back in January I got a Navigator update notice for a non-DVR box. But the update never happened. At that time, they said that they were going to do the DVR boxes first, (or finish the DVR boxes first, can't remember) than do the SA non-DVR boxes, than the Pace and Pioneer models. Well, the good news is that now we are in mid September and I got a free year of DVR service when I upgraded to an "All In One" Package WITH Passport. It seems as if my Milwaukee division, if they would have taken the "Ohhhh Ohhhh, Navigator is so new and cool" approach that we would have it by now.

I agree with the above about how this Navigator decision concerning the rollout may be based on President of your TWC division and his/her own experiences with the software as well as how well he/she can convince the office managers about their experiences with Navigator. My belief is if they are "Passport people" there is a good chance you won't be getting Navigator until first quarter of next year at the earliest. If your division is headed by an "I Love Navigator" president and management. (Like the head of Lincoln Nebraska's office) they are just going to roll this out maybe even without warning and not care. Which in Lincoln Nebraska has already been done long ago.

I also think that some division Presidents and managers at TWC have better skills and customer care concern than others. For those of you writing letters to TWC execs expressing your concerns about Navigator, maybe you could inquire how well the roll out has been in their division and any problems that are still occurring. What do they like about it? What do they believe needs improvement?

The attitudes of your local office higher-ups I think plays a major roll in Navigator's deployment to your area.

Jack

Everyone who has been Navigated,

Can you please repost the instructions for how to tell what version of the Navigator you are running and than each user can post his/her version number? I have a theory, and it is JUST a theory that the reason why some areas may be having problems is because they have not had the test rollout that we had here in Milwaukee back in January.

Jack

As of 9/2 (the last time I checked) I had 2.4.4_2.

Ted

Has anybody figured out a workaround (other than trading the box) for the dreaded "shows not recorded due to channel not available" bug?
I had my 8300HDC box for about two weeks, and it worked OK until the day before yesterday, then it skipped two recordings with the above excuse showing up in the log. I did a soft reboot (pressed the two volume buttons and guide button) yesterday morning, but, that did not help - since then, two more shows skipped for the same reason (but two recorded OK, so it is not even reliably repeatable).

Don't know the Navigator version (not at home now).

Thanks,

Pedja
(Raleigh/Durham area)

As of 9/2 (the last time I checked) I had 2.4.4_2.

Ted

Make that 2.4.5_4 as of today (9/13). Anyone have release notes as to what this means for us?

-Ted

How do you check the level??

I just got the 8300HDC with Navigator yesterday (Sep. 12) from the TWC office in Chatsworth, CA. It's definitely a step down, performance-wise, from the 8300 (non-HD) with Passport that I traded in. It's already missed three recordings.

Yesterday, it had version 2.4.4_2 of the software, and today it has been updated to 2.4.5_4.

bahill, to get to the diagnostics screen (at least on my unit), hold down the Select button on the remote for 5-10 seconds until the mail light blinks on the unit, and while that light is blinking press the down button (just below Select).

Thanks. I have 2.4.5_4

My 8300HDC crashed at midnight tonight. It keeps getting stuck at E-13 on reboot. :sigh:

Hi Ted,Try unplugging the converter from the wall or from the surge protector for at least 10 minutes to flush out any strange data between the box and the server. Than plug it back in and wait for the thing to reboot. Jack

Thanks, Jack. I had already tried several permutations along the lines you suggested. Eventually, I gave up and went to sleep. I left it in the E-13 mode. This morning, when I woke up, it was back to normal (whatever that means). It must have finally gotten around to clearing that state. Ted

ncted... Man I wish I would have seen your post earlier. My 8300HDC also crash at midnight with E-13 stuck in the display. Like you I also unplugged the unit for about 10 minutes but no luck.

Instead of going to bed I was pissed enough to call Time Warner. I was also prepared to be on hold for an hour or so... when a recording came on the line that said something like "Time Warner cable is in the process of upgrading software for our digital customers. As a result cable service will be unavailable from midnight until 5AM.... blah blah blah."

I had nothing better to do... so I kept my eye on the cable box while sitting at my computer installing some upgrades and surfing the net. Around 3:15AM the display changed from E-13 to E-8... went to OCAP... back to E-13 booted a couple times then finished the normal 15 minute boot sequence. I began to get the feeling they were pushing a firmware update to our boxes. Unfortunately I never recorded what version I was at so I don't know if it was upgraded. :( Whatever they did I can only hope it did something to resolve the issue of not being able to depend on the DVR to record 100% of the time.

Elton in Raleigh

Is one of the reported problems that if you start to watch a show that you are recording before it is done recording, it stops recording?

I did that last night during the WVa-MD football game, and it worked fine. Hit record, switched to a different channel for a while, went to LIST, selected the football game to play, and watched from record point to end (the game continued to record), no issues.

I have 2.4.5_4

I have 2.4.5_4

Is one of the reported problems that if you start to watch a show that you are recording before it is done recording, it stops recording?

I did that last night during the WVa-MD football game, and it worked fine. Hit record, switched to a different channel for a while, went to LIST, selected the football game to play, and watched from record point to end (the game continued to record), no issues.

I have 2.4.5_4

It is inconsistent for me. Sometimes it works as expected. Sometimes it will stop recording. Sometimes it will crash the box. Hopefully the new version will fix that particular problem. Although I have gotten gun-shy enough to not risk it, and I get satellite tomorrow, so I hope to never have to find out whether they fixed it.

Ted

ncted... Man I wish I would have seen your post earlier. My 8300HDC also crash at midnight with E-13 stuck in the display. Like you I also unplugged the unit for about 10 minutes but no luck.

Instead of going to bed I was pissed enough to call Time Warner. I was also prepared to be on hold for an hour or so... when a recording came on the line that said something like "Time Warner cable is in the process of upgrading software for our digital customers. As a result cable service will be unavailable from midnight until 5AM.... blah blah blah."

I had nothing better to do... so I kept my eye on the cable box while sitting at my computer installing some upgrades and surfing the net. Around 3:15AM the display changed from E-13 to E-8... went to OCAP... back to E-13 booted a couple times then finished the normal 15 minute boot sequence. I began to get the feeling they were pushing a firmware update to our boxes. Unfortunately I never recorded what version I was at so I don't know if it was upgraded. :( Whatever they did I can only hope it did something to resolve the issue of not being able to depend on the DVR to record 100% of the time.

Elton in Raleigh

Hopefully so. 12-5 AM on a weeknight (weekmorning?) seems like an awfully big maintenance window. Where I work, we get 2-6AM on Saturday mornings to do maintenance, and usually at least one customer complains enough to delay most planned work.

Ted

What am I missing to find the version? I used the select key, wait for blinking, then down-arrow to get to the diagnostics screen. I get about 28 on-screen pages. So far so good... but I can't figure out which line is the nav version. (using a SA8300HD dvr). I see version#'s for PTV, Dflt, Res, DAM, and PE on the software version screen. Which is the Navigator version?? Or is it on another screen and I totally missed it? Thx for any help.

What am I missing to find the version? I used the select key, wait for blinking, then down-arrow to get to the diagnostics screen. I get about 28 on-screen pages. So far so good... but I can't figure out which line is the nav version. (using a SA8300HD dvr). I see version#'s for PTV, Dflt, Res, DAM, and PE on the software version screen. Which is the Navigator version?? Or is it on another screen and I totally missed it? Thx for any help.

Can someone post some pics of the screens? Curious how the diags look compared to SARA.

xnappo

Are you sure you have Navigator? I only have 9 pages of diags. All of the Versions are on the very first page:

BootStrapper
Network
Monitor
ODN


Ted

I have received 2.4.5_4 on my 830HDC in Charlotte, NC in the last few days.

I had noticed over the last day or so that program information no longer provided new/repeat indication and sure enough, on checking my ODN version it's been updated. Apart from the loss of this vital repeat/new info, I see that the scrolling tv guide (ch.99) has also changed -- it's some really nasty, awful graphic quality guide with a new logo (not the TV Guide Channel logo anymore). It's as if Time Warner has done a deal with an alternative (much cheaper) tv guide provider for their linear channel and for the guide information in the epg.

I was expecting to receive caller ID on TV in the next Navigator update but that is still absent here.

I don't see any other differences yet but the ones I do see are obvious steps back. Time Warner Cable never ceases to surprise me (in a bad way)!

Oh - and for some reason in Charlotte, we do not have the NBC Fall Preview on demand that is supposed to be available as part of Entertainment on Demand and HD Showcase on Demand. The TW Charlotte web site talks about it but it's not there.

Seems to me that the 'C' in TWC stands for 'crap-shoot'.

This Navigator "upgrade" has me at a loss. You still don't have Caller ID on TV???? I have SARA and we've had that feature for almost two years now. The SARA guide has been rock solid and reliable. Sure it's ugly and the search function is absolutely worthless, but it WORKS! So far, everything I've heard about Navigator is a step back from what they had! Can you at least customize the guide with Navigator? That's one of my biggest pet peeves with the current guide on TWC. They have the same channels over and over and over again. I really wish they'd implement a system like Dish Network has where you can select what channels you want to appear in the guide. For example, when they offer both an analog feed as well the same digital HD feed. WHY? If I have a choice, I'm going to want the HD digital feed! I can't count the times my wife sets up a recording only to find out she set the garbage quality analog feed to record instead of the HD feed. They scatter the channels all over the place. A customizable guide would be a huge improvement!

The only thing you can do with the guide, as far as I know, is to "sort" it by favorites. That is not real sort, it just adds favorites to the beginning of the list; they appear for the second time in their normal slots. This is useful. Much more useful would be the ability to remove channels you don't want to see (even just removing the ones you are not subscribed to would be a good step).

Pedja

Hey Guys,

If you are running Navigator and you got the recent update (2.4.5_4) to your boxes, (assuming this is the latest version-correct me if I am wrong.) have there been any improvements in reliability of DVR recordings? (Both for series and individual shows.) Perhaps this is the main bug that they are trying to fix.

Gjlp,

This is the first that I have heard with the analog TV Guide Channel being changed. Do any others have this? On the Passport version that I have. (A DVR converter) it says TV Guide with the TV Guide logo on the digital program guide. I wonder if TWC dropped their licensing arrangements with TV Guide figuring, "Well, 90% of our subscribers have digital, and no one watches the analog guide anymore (i.e the auto scrolling guide) so why should we pay them for it?"

What are the statistics on this? Can cable customers who just want standard service (channels 2-99) even get an analog box anymore? I have heard that as of next year, first quarter, ALL converters rented by customers will be digital. (I understand this will be the case for TWC.) I am pretty sure other cable companies will be affected by this change as well.

Jack

Just got this new guide in NYC. I haven't been able to figure out with my DVR how to record a show in the future. Does anyone know how to do this? Whenever I go and scroll through the guide to a future show and press "RECORD", it starts recording the current show on the channel and not this future show.

Just got this new guide in NYC. I haven't been able to figure out with my DVR how to record a show in the future. Does anyone know how to do this? Whenever I go and scroll through the guide to a future show and press "RECORD", it starts recording the current show on the channel and not this future show.

I don't have the new guide. But try this:

Press the GUIDE button on your remote, and scroll to the show you want to record. Only instead of pressing RECORD, press the SELECT button on your remote and than your DVR menu should give you options for recording that specific show.

Do you know what guide you have? Is it Navigator, Passport, or Sara?

Jack

I have been reading on the SARA board that sara users are haveing trouble with the 8300hdc.Wonder if that could be part of Navigators problems? Sara 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

I have been reading on the SARA board that sara users are haveing trouble with the 8300hdc.Wonder if that could be part of Navigators prpblems? Sara 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

I picked up a Navigator'd 8300 HDC box from Dayton TWC on Friday, just to compare with my existing Passport'd 8300 HDDVR. It didn't take very long for the bugs to become evident:

-Won't allow me to change resolution output over HDMI. Its upconverting everything to 1080i and everything looks fuzzy.

-Analog sound output is fixed volume, regardless of what audio settings I change (tried them all). I went through every setting and option in the menus. The sound is locked at about 50%, requiring me to turn my receiver to "11" to get listenable sound.

-It locked up on me once, requiring unplug and again the lengthy "OCAP countdown" to get booted back up.

These were the killers for me, obviously its not ready for prime-time yet. I didn't even need to get into its recording/scheduling capabilities. Based on what I saw, this is still Beta2 software, I'd imagine there are bugs there too.

However there were a few positives that makes me think a later generation of Navigator might be acceptable:

-Menus were clean, uncluttered
-I liked some of the search menus, there was one listing to get all HDTV "Now" which I liked a lot (though it will all be HDTV in 2009).

If they'd just get all the bugs worked out, add a few key features and focus on speed, I think it will pass.One interesting thing is we've been watching Mad Men on HD on demand. Episode #6 didn't appear on my old 8300's menu but it was available on the HDC box. Likewise we had access to all the movie channels on the HDC box but not on 8300...I'm sure there's something going on on the backend that will get corrected, we don't pay for STARz.

But for now, OCAP is OHNO and the box is heading back today.

Well, it is official, I am no longer a TWC customer. I turned in my 8300HD and 8300HDC boxes at lunchtime today. I hope DISH treats me well.

Ted

Just a tip I recently learned.... If you want to force a hard reboot of the 8300HDC press and hold these three buttons on the face of the unit. LEFT and RIGHT arrows, while holding press the INFO button.

This will send an immediate reboot signal and you will see OCAP on the screen followed by the loading of all the L-13...L-1 screens.

Hope this helps the community...

I turned mine into the Cary office a few weeks ago, and ordered Directv (supposed to be installed tomorrow!). Lady was unbelievable rude, and had no interest in why I was canceling. I asked her about my latest bill and how I should handle paying it (TWC charges for future programming so I did not owe it). She just told me not to pay it, I could not get anything else out of her.

Well, it is official, I am no longer a TWC customer. I turned in my 8300HD and 8300HDC boxes at lunchtime today. I hope DISH treats me well.

Ted

Get ready!I just spoke to my brother in law in Charlotte who is still on Passport.He had a TWC repairman out to fix a faulty exterior cable connection and chatted a bit with him about Navigator.What he was told was TWC was aware of the Navigator problems.He also stated a "NEW" version of Navigator was being written for the SARA customers.It should be released early next year.Do i hear the word new beta testers comeing up?Hope they have learned from their mistakes by then. SARA 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

I turned mine into the Cary office a few weeks ago, and ordered Directv (supposed to be installed tomorrow!). Lady was unbelievable rude, and had no interest in why I was canceling. I asked her about my latest bill and how I should handle paying it (TWC charges for future programming so I did not owe it). She just told me not to pay it, I could not get anything else out of her.

TWC keeps shoving Navigator down peoples throats and the natural reaction will be them puking up the service! I feel they are going to lose a lot of cable subs with this if they don't remedy the situation quickly! I sad because as I stated, I really don't want to switch providers, but this may force my hand when it finally comes down the pipe. They need to get their act together. If I were running the show, I would immediately can everyone involved in the Navigator debacle and shut down the program. Restore every ones old system and start from scratch by contracting out to professional software vendors in order to come up with a stable and reliable guide. Take a look at Dish and DirecTV guide and draw from them, get customer input and try to accommodate. Fix the problem and stop the bleeding! (or in this case, the puking!)

Yes, Woody. I heard the same thing directly from the head of customer relations here in Central New York. Navigator deployment is scheduled for the 1st quarter of 2008!

-I liked some of the search menus, there was one listing to get all HDTV "Now" which I liked a lot (though it will all be HDTV in 2009).

No. Actually you are thinking "All Digital" in 2009 not all "High Def". But, cable will probably be forced to send analog too which penalizes cable subscribers while other sources of TV are not equally handicapped.

Dan

Yes that was careless but not entirely untrue. Last I read, they'd removed the provisions to allow cable operators to downrez broadcaster's HDTV transmissions. So my understanding is, if it was broadcast in HD, we'll get it in HD. Anyone know different?

"... a "NEW" version of Navigator was being written for the SARA customers.It should be released early next year.Do i hear the word new beta testers coming up?Hope they have learned from their mistakes by then."

Let's hope so! Does TWC plan to convert all of the Passport boxes first and than move to Sara?

Jack

Yes that was careless but not entirely untrue. Last I read, they'd removed the provisions to allow cable operators to downrez broadcaster's HDTV transmissions. So my understanding is, if it was broadcast in HD, we'll get it in HD. Anyone know different?There NEVER was any provision in the FCC regulations that would allow the cable operators to downrez the broadcaster's HDTV transmissions - and there still isn't. What they HAVE done (last week) was to require cable systems to provide BOTH the original HDTV programming without "material degradation" AND analog (SD) equivalents to all legacy households upon the analog cut-off (and for 3 years after).

Now, each cable system may decide HOW to do this (either convert to SD at the head end or provide the customer with (presumably no or low cost) converters. There are few exceptions and this ONLY applies to qualified (frequently referred to as "must carry") local OTA stations. In other words, they don't have to do this for ESPN or TNT. And, of course, the local station can decide to withhold permission to carry their HD channel.

As i was led to belive the :NEW: version is for sara customers.If it works i would assume passport would get it to but thats just my guess.Remember new with TWC can cause quite a fright sometimes.But maybe the ex passport group working for TWC developed the new version.Just my guess.But if TWC knows it has pissed off the 25% of customers who have Passport think about the 75% who have sara.Something has to give at some point.

Something has to give at some point.And something will gain (namely DirecTV, Dish, or FiOS):eek:

http://hdtvmagazine.com/articles/2006/02/president_bush_signs_historic_dtv_bill_cea_says_hdtv_is_on_a _roll.php

....The legislation excluded a provision that would have allowed cable operators to degrade a broadcaster's HDTV signals to "standard definition," and in doing denying consumers the means to see the highest-quality digital programming....

They tried...what a crock that would have been.

http://hdtvmagazine.com/articles/2006/02/president_bush_signs_historic_dtv_bill_cea_says_hdtv_is_on_a _roll.php

....The legislation excluded a provision that would have allowed cable operators to degrade a broadcaster's HDTV signals to "standard definition," and in doing denying consumers the means to see the highest-quality digital programming....

They tried...what a crock that would have been.This link is talking about different legislation (the legislation mandating cessation of analog TV).

I fear that I might not see your point.

Um..Dave. It might be different than the legislation you're thinking off...but it is the legislation I had in mind when I made my posts. Next time I'll try to anticipate what you're thinking of before I post;)

Um..Dave. It might be different than the legislation you're thinking off...but it is the legislation I had in mind when I made my posts. Next time I'll try to anticipate what you're thinking of before I post;)And now, back to the disaster known as Navigator!:D

Got my old Passport 8300 back online last night...what a difference it made in just plain navigation...much smoother,quicker. I'm surprised TWC could miss this badly. They would have been money ahead to just cut a deal with Tivo...they shouldn't be in the software business.

I couldn't get the service person to commit on when Navigator becomes mandatory. Evidently all new installs here in Dayton are getting the new boxes and Navigator. Under her breath she said everyone was complaining (customers, service/support) but that she didn't want to jeopardize her job by being too vocal about it. Its too bad TWC is run that way, someone should "stop the line".

They are going to run off lots of customers to D*

I have a friend who is an Adelphia customer and understand that TWC bought out Adelphia. Does anyone know when the transfers would be complete? This means that Adelphia customers will also be forced into the Navigator Guide at some point in time. I understand that Adelphia has their own in-house program guide, but a few years ago, I heard that their Customer Service was horrible. Well, most cable customer service is bad. (a huge You Tube hit, showed a Cox Cable tech sleeping on a customer's couch while he waited for his office to authorize a box! LOL!)

Cable needs to seriously improve its customer service reps, field technicians, and management across the board. (In addition to hiring competent programing and software developers) who can effectively communicate with customers (and get the bugs in the system,) such as TWC Navigator fixed.

The problem is that sometimes big corporations can do damage to their company by rolling out new developments too fast without a thorough beta test of the product first. This is the big example with Navigator. What do you think it is going to take for them to fix such a stupid screw up? Obviously, things can not continue as they are with this software.

Jack

Well, had my first "while recording" issue last night. (So, since this was only the 2nd show I've ever recorded on this thing, I'm batting 0.500.)

I'm on 2.4.5_4.

Had Prison Break on FOX HD set to series record... 8-9pm EST. At about 8:30 EST, I sit down to watch MNF on ESPN HD.

Turn on the TV & Cable Box....nothing, blank screen.

Try changing channels, I see the channel banner come up, and it changes channel numbers, but still no picture.

So, I punch in FOX HD, and picture comes up of Prison Break (live). Now, punch in ESPN HD, MNF picture comes up. Ok, weird, but everything seems ok.

So, about 5 mins later, I decide I'll watch Prison Break from the beginning while it's still recording the last 20 mins...so, I hit LIST...nothing. I try changing channels....nothing. The box is not responding to any remote commands.

Picture still playing, so I keep watching MNF for about 30 more seconds, then, suddenly everything shuts down, and the box starts to reboot! I wait the 7-10 mins it takes to go through the whole countdown to reboot, and I see the record light come back on, so it appears to have picked up recording the final 10 mins of Prison Break.

So, now, I'm pissed, I just lost ~10 mins of the show I was trying to record and watch.

I hit LIST, and now two entries are there for Prison Break (one about 40 mins long, and one currently recording the last 10 mins). I went ahead and watched the two separate things, missing 10 mins of the show in the middle.

I guess if I have any question from this, it would be: What should I do from here? Should I bother calling TWC Customer service and explaining this whole story to them? Will it do any good? What are people doing when they have an issue? Is there a concerted effort out there to make sure TWC knows how buggy this thing is?

Frustrating.

The problem is that sometimes big corporations can do damage to their company by rolling out new developments too fast without a thorough beta test of the product first. This is the big example with Navigator. What do you think it is going to take for them to fix such a stupid screw up? Obviously, things can not continue as they are with this software.


This has been testing in the public for about a year hasn't it? Maybe longer in SC? The development of it feels as if it's been going on for years. Some unfortunates got screwed into being the first to get an official rollout at the beginning of the year and the total disaster of it made the local headlines. It's probably earlier in this thread.

How long can they continue this way? Based on what we've seen so far, a long, long time.

Let's hope so! Does TWC plan to convert all of the Passport boxes first and than move to Sara?

Jack

I believe this is YES. SARA can do SDV right now, Passport can not. SDV is critical to TWC (or ANY cable operator). Plus I bepieve we have reas direct quotes from TWC execs saying as much.

Far as I know, TWC extracts a DVR service fee every month. Can range from 4-5 bucks to 9 or so. WHEN they force navigator on me, I can foresee that I will get failures on the most basic stuff, like scheduling a recording and it doesn't happen.

Now I can't recall EVER being in this position. So that is what my expectation of their service is. SOOOO, had anyone refused to pay the service fee if the service does NOT provide what it is supposed to provide?

Far as I know, TWC extracts a DVR service fee every month. Can range from 4-5 bucks to 9 or so. WHEN they force navigator on me, I can foresee that I will get failures on the most basic stuff, like scheduling a recording and it doesn't happen.

Now I can't recall EVER being in this position. So that is what my expectation of their service is. SOOOO, had anyone refused to pay the service fee if the service does NOT provide what it is supposed to provide?

I don't know if people have refused to pay, but there are numerous reports of TWC offering credits and other freebies in an effort to keep customers happy. I heard they were doing things like free HBO and upgrading programming packages for customers who complained and had repeated issues. I would think they would waive the DVR fee until the problems were resolved. I believe it really depends on your market. Here in the Rome/Syracuse market, I've had issues with TWC over things and for the most part received good customer service and competent techs. When my digital phone transfer was a debacle, they issued enough credit to my account to offset the inconvenience. When they changed the HD Tier channel lineup, the ended up giving me that portion of programming for free along with Showtime for 1 year. Overall, I have been pleased. On the flip side, I've heard reports from other markets where the reps are rude and the techs are worthless. I'd say such as this with virtually any service provider.

I have received 2.4.5_4 on my 830HDC in Charlotte, NC in the last few days.

I had noticed over the last day or so that program information no longer provided new/repeat indication and sure enough, on checking my ODN version it's been updated. Apart from the loss of this vital repeat/new info, I see that the scrolling tv guide (ch.99) has also changed -- it's some really nasty, awful graphic quality guide with a new logo (not the TV Guide Channel logo anymore). It's as if Time Warner has done a deal with an alternative (much cheaper) tv guide provider for their linear channel and for the guide information in the epg.

I was expecting to receive caller ID on TV in the next Navigator update but that is still absent here.

I don't see any other differences yet but the ones I do see are obvious steps back. Time Warner Cable never ceases to surprise me (in a bad way)!

Oh - and for some reason in Charlotte, we do not have the NBC Fall Preview on demand that is supposed to be available as part of Entertainment on Demand and HD Showcase on Demand. The TW Charlotte web site talks about it but it's not there.

Seems to me that the 'C' in TWC stands for 'crap-shoot'.

Did this replace the passport software on your 8300 or was this a new box? I have an 8300HD, but still have passport. Also, did you receive advance notice?:confused:

I wait the 7-10 mins it takes to go through the whole countdown to reboot.

Wow!!

Guys is this true with Navigator that it can take 7-10 minutes to reboot? On Passport, mine takes about 1-2 minutes on a DVR box even on a cold boot up.

Do you believe that the system's head end could be strained by running two separate versions of the software at the same time? (Say Navigator and Passport?) A 7-10 minute boot seems like a LONG time!

However, I understand that on the [dreadful] night that you get Navigator the box will be showing a series of numbers, (something like F1...F2...etc.) when it is downloaded. It will count up to 100, go through a long boot process.) (At least this is what my old Pioneer box did when we got a Daylight Savings Time patch.) It could take about two hours to get the software. It's typically done between 2 am-6am. (Often between 4-6 am)

Your also supposed to get a few days notice before the upgrade. It may either be enclosed in your bill or as a separate document that says, "Important Information." Inside of that will be a big sales pitch about how "great?" (cough, cough, vomit,) Navigator is in the form of a brochure , and a letter from the President of your local TWC division that explains what Navigator is, and the download date for your box.

Were any of you "updated" without a notification? Regardless, when did the changeover for your box occur? I am still on Passport in Milwaukee.

Jack

Wow!!

Guys is this true with Navigator that it can take 7-10 minutes to reboot? On Passport, mine takes about 1-2 minutes on a DVR box even on a cold boot up.


A service tech came out to look at my internet connection and had to reboot my old 2000 STB, which takes about 3-5 minutes. He said to me that the newer boxes are even slower.

Just from what I am hearing and reading my best guess is SARA people have at least 12 months before we are Navigator infested.Enjoy the next 12 months my fellow SARA users. SARA 1.89.17.1(AND LOVEING IT)Greensboro NC

I don't know all of the technicalities involving this,

But it sure sounds like they are NOT using Road Runner in relation to Navigator's speed!

One wonders how Digital Phone and Road Runner can be so good and Navigator even after almost a year in the field can still be so crappy.

Jack

Regarding complaints and accommodation discounts. TWC has 2x given me substantial credit or break when I've complained...just ask. Recently I complained about my prices and lack of HD channels; they offered me the current promotions for new account sign up, without even asking, plus a freebie that wasn't advertised.

I always call new account sales when I call...not sure if that's a different department.

I have the 8300hdc. When I turn its on it always defaults to chan 15. Can I change that to another chan?

Thanks
B

There is a setting for what channel to go to upon power on. It's somewhere in the settings menu. Not in front of my tv right now, so not exactly sure where, but it is in there, saw it last night.

One wonders how Digital Phone and Road Runner can be so good and Navigator even after almost a year in the field can still be so crappy.

Jack

Agreed! Roadrunner is the best internet service I've used thus far. I've dial up, (UGH!), wireless, and DSL. The Roadrunner is by far the fastest and most reliable. The software packages and home page are great! The techs are competent and helpful as well. The digital phone is great too. I've had no problems at all with it. Heck, even the cable/DVR has been good up to now (SARA user here).


I have the 8300hdc. When I turn its on it always defaults to chan 15. Can I change that to another chan?

Thanks
B

Well, in the menu I have there is an option for the start channel. You can use any or the last channel before you powered off. However, as I mentioned above, I have the latest version of SARA.

I don't know all of the technicalities involving this,

But it sure sounds like they are NOT using Road Runner in relation to Navigator's speed!

One wonders how Digital Phone and Road Runner can be so good and Navigator even after almost a year in the field can still be so crappy.


Road Runner probably runs on servers, hardware and system software that TWC won't have designed.

Navigator is designed and written by TWCs own software developers. Road Runner doesn't require TWC to do anything at the user end. Unless you count the pointless Road Runner Medic.

Why is Passport pretty good now? Because TWC had nothing to do with it. But when you consider that Passport had it's own share of bugs and features missing, and it was created by a company/division whose sole job it is to create IPG software, then I can only imagine how TWC are stumbling around trying to copy off everyone else without actually stealing it.

Just to save some small portion of their billions in revenue.

The settings for Power on CHannel are under
Settings---> Display----> Power on Channel
Durham NC, Navigator and Hating it

I was hoping the new upgrade 2.4.5_4 would fix the missed recordings. It did not, missed the final episode of big brother last night...channel not available!
I'm hoping to record back to you tonight, who knows if it will happen. You never know when it will happen either, it went for a whole week without missing a recording.

The settings for Power on CHannel are under
Settings---> Display----> Power on Channel
Durham NC, Navigator and Hating it

I must have a different version firmware. I have a quick settings and a general settings. Under general settings I do have a power on and power off, but the options for the power on is to have "the channel always", "the time always", or "the channel on when tuning". Too bad since channel 15 for me is a foreign channel.. LOL

I was hoping the new upgrade 2.4.5_4 would fix the missed recordings. It did not, missed the final episode of big brother last night...channel not available!
I'm hoping to record back to you tonight, who knows if it will happen. You never know when it will happen either, it went for a whole week without missing a recording.

If Navigator can go for a whole week without missing a recording, that has to be some kind of record! hahaha!

("The suspense is terrible....I hope it'll last.").....Willy Wonka

Jack

If Navigator can go for a whole week without missing a recording, that has to be some kind of record! hahaha!



Maybe it's some kind of Tivo-esque feature taken to the next level with AI.

It reserves shows you say you want to watch and then it considers your choice and then decides for you! Maybe based on if the box thinks it's a good show, or if it's the right show for your mood.

"I'm sorry Dave, I don't think that show is very good."

In Lincoln our version is still 2.3.45AD. So is your guys version different or more advanced since the number is higher? Since we are a complete roll out here what does this all mean? I would have to think the higher number would mean a later version.

We are still guinea pigs here in Lincoln for the eventual roll out nation wide. Since we got done electing our city officials not one word has been said about pressuring TWC for anything like we had earlier. It looks like it all was a ploy for attention by council people running for office. I didn't expect anything different to tell the truth. At least TWC got two good months of heat here for this thing even though it did little good for you guys.

Sadly it sounds like we have a lot of the same problems you guys do. I would like to say we have the same amount yet but I don't know. This might be useless unless we actually take specific readings of how often this software fails (reboots, missed recordings, ect.). Even then it is a small sample and hard to verify.

Agreed! Roadrunner is the best internet service I've used thus far. I've dial up, (UGH!), wireless, and DSL. The Roadrunner is by far the fastest and most reliable. The software packages and home page are great! The techs are competent and helpful as well. The digital phone is great too. I've had no problems at all with it. Heck, even the cable/DVR has been good up to now (SARA user here).


Perhaps we need to import some RR techs from NY to NC. I just dropped RR again after numerous attempts to get reliable service running again. I was a beta tester for RR when they rolled it out here in 99. It was excellent during testing, but once they started widespread rollouts, it seemed as bad as dial-up. When I moved in 2000, I switched to DSL which, while slower, was at least reliable. My DSL modem died in 2005, so I decided to give RR another shot. Initially, it was very good, but earlier this year, my modem started losing connection several times a day, requiring a reboot. After about 5 new modems, I gave up and ordered DSL again which is now about as fast and, so far, is very reliable. The biggest beef I have with RR is that their DNS is sooo slooow. I ended up using my company's public DNS because I knew it was faster. How can DNS be so slow? It is about the most lightweight protocol out there besides ping!

Anyway, between RR and Navigator, TWC did not make me a happy customer. I will have to have very few options to move back to them.

Ted

PS - The digital phone service is only as good as your RR service as it uses your cable modem bandwidth for VOIP.

PS - The digital phone service is only as good as your RR service as it uses your cable modem bandwidth for VOIP.

Actually, it is my understanding that the digital phone from TWC uses it's own dedicated frequency. It never touches the "public" Internet. You don't need to sub to Roadrunner to sub to digital phone. Yes, the connection still uses the TWC high speed network, but I've talked to people here who had network issue with their Roadrunner, but were still able to use the phone service. I've stated my opinion before that cable varies from market to market (ever for the same provider!). There are some truly abysmal cable companies/markets. The Utica, NY market was a case in point. Under Adelphia, it was horrible. I ended up switching to satellite and DSL. Now that TWC has acquired the franchise, I've have seen a vast improvement in the service. That doesn't mean we are safe. TWC WILL unleash Navigator here at some point. All I can do is hope that by that time, they will have it functional and working right. Otherwise, satellite will become my video provider.

Actually, it is my understanding that the digital phone from TWC uses it's own dedicated frequency. It never touches the "public" Internet. You don't need to sub to Roadrunner to sub to digital phone. Yes, the connection still uses the TWC high speed network, but I've talked to people here who had network issue with their Roadrunner, but were still able to use the phone service. I've stated my opinion before that cable varies from market to market (ever for the same provider!). There are some truly abysmal cable companies/markets. The Utica, NY market was a case in point. Under Adelphia, it was horrible. I ended up switching to satellite and DSL. Now that TWC has acquired the franchise, I've have seen a vast improvement in the service. That doesn't mean we are safe. TWC WILL unleash Navigator here at some point. All I can do is hope that by that time, they will have it functional and working right. Otherwise, satellite will become my video provider.

You may be correct about the phone service with respect to the BW, but where I live, both RR and DP run out of the same box, and, in my limited experience, when you lose one, you lose the other.

Ted

MY CONVERSATIONS WITH A TWC TECH ABOUT NAVIGATOR:

I know this guy on another unrelated board that I frequent who I found out works in the service department for TWC. I told him that I was still on Passport and was concerned about how so many people have had nothing but problems with this software. He has granted me permission to pass along the information and says he will try to find out more information along the way. Here are some of his comments:

*******************************************

Hey Jack. Thanks.

The new navigator program guide we are using here is called Mystro. I believe it is the exact same thing as what they are calling Navigator over there. I am in the service dept here and I will tell you that there are still a bunch of bugs within the system. We have been installing the new boxes, which we call OCAP boxes, to the new customers. We have nicknamed them OCRAP for the reasons you have heard about. We still have a few of the Passports being issued out, but only when specifically asked for by the customer. The DVR's are a huge headache, but not so much the regular converter boxes. First off the new program takes about 8 minutes, give or take, to load up. The graphics on the navigator screen are downgraded to make way for more features on the hard drive, which are still in the works. I had an OCAP HD DVR for a little while and switched it out for a Passport again. I doubt that they will be sending out the downloads on the passport boxes anytime soon the way it is looking thus far. It seems that this program is just too much of a hassle, but corporate has spent soo much time and money on the program so far that they have to get it done. They might actually be handing out the new boxes in your area as well, so hopefully your Passport holds up for a while. lol

But before they DL the software to the boxes, Im pretty confident they will have the bugs cleaned up. I mean, the graphics are a minor thing. The major issues are problems while loading, pictures freezing, and sporadic rebooting. This is not all the boxes, but I have to replace an average of 2 OCAP DVRs a day. So I am thinking the release date for all customers will most likely be pushed back.

These are the problems in my district anyhow.

Take it easy Jack.

*************************************

I asked him more about the features and some questions about the rollout:

************************************************

Not sure how the other branches are approaching the rollout. But like I said, all our new customers are getting the "upgrade". If you get a box that works correctly, it is really not that bad. You get used to the graphics change and what they are trying to do with it is good, but it is just the horrible bugs that are the problem. I actually think it would be a good idea to stop sending out the OCAP any further until the problem is resloved for business purposes. Sometimes I feel our branch does so well out of default. I worked for Dish Network for a short period of time and talk about customer complaints. Incredible. But I am happy that your service is straight. TWC has good customer service overall and does not charge for trouble calls. Good place for employment as well.

But I will get with you when I get more info on the program and the scheduled rollouts.

********************************************

Jack

Maybe its too much to ask but ....Could you ask him about these 2 things?

1) Will the final solution support video pass-through over HDMI? (480i,720P,1080i) The box I tried said this couldn't be changed over HDMI...and it upconverted everything to 1080i...which looked like crap except for 1080i channels.

2) Analog audio out. This didn't work for me no matter what I tried, sound volume stuck at about 40%. Is everyone using digital now so no one is complaining?

1 is my biggest issue, I can't get 480i out of my 8300 either.

Maybe its too much to ask but ....Could you ask him about these 2 things?

1) Will the final solution support video pass-through over HDMI? (480i,720P,1080i) The box I tried said this couldn't be changed over HDMI...and it upconverted everything to 1080i...which looked like crap except for 1080i channels.

2) Analog audio out. This didn't work for me no matter what I tried, sound volume stuck at about 40%. Is everyone using digital now so no one is complaining?

1 is my biggest issue, I can't get 480i out of my 8300 either.

Sure,

I want to wait for a few days because I don't want to pester him. But I come to this thread very often so I will see what I can do.

Jack

Just to save some small portion of their billions in revenue.

THAT is what gets those several million buck a year CEOs even more millions in bonuses on TOP of their salary.

Perhaps we need to import some RR techs from NY to NC. I just dropped RR again after numerous attempts to get reliable service running again. I was a beta tester for RR when they rolled it out here in 99. It was excellent during testing, but once they started widespread rollouts, it seemed as bad as dial-up. When I moved in 2000, I switched to DSL which, while slower, was at least reliable. My DSL modem died in 2005, so I decided to give RR another shot. Initially, it was very good, but earlier this year, my modem started losing connection several times a day, requiring a reboot. After about 5 new modems, I gave up and ordered DSL again which is now about as fast and, so far, is very reliable. The biggest beef I have with RR is that their DNS is sooo slooow. I ended up using my company's public DNS because I knew it was faster. How can DNS be so slow? It is about the most lightweight protocol out there besides ping!

Anyway, between RR and Navigator, TWC did not make me a happy customer. I will have to have very few options to move back to them.

Ted

PS - The digital phone service is only as good as your RR service as it uses your cable modem bandwidth for VOIP.

My experiences over the past 3-4-5 years leads me to think the modem may have little to do with this kind of issue. For the second time in 2 years, all of a sudden I get intermittent disconnects along with inability to get connected over the course of MUCH re-booting of the modem. Got a new one, same issue. HAD a tech out and he said the issue was in the stairwell distribution system; the 2 open ports inside the box both had this intermittent issue, it had to do with the "return" signal.

As for their VOIP service, forget it! Over the past 3-4 years I would have been without a phone for over a dozen times for 1/2 to 2 hours PLUS three times being out for 5+ days.

Actually, it is my understanding that the digital phone from TWC uses it's own dedicated frequency. It never touches the "public" Internet.

Uh, it HAS to... VOIP is about using the Internet to transmit the audio. Far as I know that the ONLY way (except for the telco wiring). I would doubt it uses ones computer, but it sure does use IP.

Uh, it HAS to... VOIP is about using the Internet to transmit the audio. Far as I know that the ONLY way (except for the telco wiring). I would doubt it uses ones computer, but it sure does use IP.

Time Warner uses it's own network. It's not the same as say Vonage. Last time I looked into it, this was verified. Unless they changed something. I would compare it to an Intranet setup within Time Warners service areas.

It wouldseem a stupid satement but I cannot see how TWC can let Navigator fail.Has it been released to soonYES.However with enought time money and the right programers it can be fixed.Maybe the SARA version ofNavigator they are prepping will be the fix.Who knows?I feel for all you guys who have to endure the teething process but hopefully it will get sorted out.It seems to me with Comcast soon to launch TIVO they cannot in the long run let Navigator fail.I went thru the teething process with Sara and know guides do evove.Hopeing for the best here. SARA 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

It wouldseem a stupid satement but I cannot see how TWC can let Navigator fail.Has it been released to soonYES.However with enought time money and the right programers it can be fixed.

You do realize that they have been working on this for years? They didn't just come up with this last year, TWC have been messing around with a version of this in one form or another for a long time and still can't get it working. They must have poured a good chunk of cash into developing this already.

Didn't they scrap a development team once already? Back when Jim Chiddix was involved?

It seems to me with Comcast soon to launch TIVO they cannot in the long run let Navigator fail.

Why not? Comcast launching Tivo based software will in no way impact Time Warner. Time Warner really only need to concern themselves with losing subs to satcos.

Why not? Comcast launching Tivo based software will in no way impact Time Warner. Time Warner really only need to concern themselves with losing subs to satcos.You have a point - but don't forget competition from FiOS. That has already impacted Comcast, and it likely is an issue with TW too.

Uh, it HAS to... VOIP is about using the Internet to transmit the audio. Far as I know that the ONLY way (except for the telco wiring). I would doubt it uses ones computer, but it sure does use IP.

RR VOiP uses 'normal' VOiP technology but is on an intranet. RoadRunner and the VOiP service are on different QAM carriers so they have no impact on one another.

xnappo

True, in our market (central New York) FiOS will only begin rollout in Syracuse which carries TWC's largest sub base for the market area. Hopefully it will kick them in the pants enough to indirectly affect us in the surrounding areas that won't see FiOS for years, if ever. From the demo I saw at the State Fair, FiOS looks great and I would seriously consider it if and when it became available.

True, in our market (central New York) FiOS will only begin rollout in Syracuse which carries TWC's largest sub base for the market area. Hopefully it will kick them in the pants enough to indirectly affect us in the surrounding areas that won't see FiOS for years, if ever. From the demo I saw at the State Fair, FiOS looks great and I would seriously consider it if and when it became available.Well don't get your hopes up too much in Syracuse: They've have FiOS in the Buffalo area for better than a year - but NO TV. FiOS phone & Internet are one thing, and FiOS TV are another.

But there are areas where FiOS TV is coming on strong - I just don't expect Central/Western NY to be one of them.

My 2.4.5_4 version of 830HDC does pass through over HDMI, actually I don't have a choice there, as you mentioned. When I hit "Info" on TV, it says any one of 480i, 720p or 1080i, depending on the channel; both 720p and 1080i channels look good when displaying HD content; 480i channels vary greatly, some are OK, some pretty bad. Note that DVR will send 1080i if the channel is a 1080i channel, even if the source material is 480i (i.e. non-HD programming on HD channels), and those typically do look worse than the same thing on a non-HD channel. Could that be an issue? Or is it some kind of a TV setting?

By the way, I asked for a replacement box on Friday after I had daily occurencies of "channel not available" bug for a few days, and I got it on Saturday (at least they are prompt). So, for now, (5 days and counting) no missed recordings. If (when?) this box gives me trouble, I'll ask for another one, and so on. If the boxes last only a few weeks, that's TWC problem; maybe they'll start fixing the bugs.

I am consistantly getting the channel not available now after a good week of no missed recordings. I have rebooted the thing twice now.
My neighbor had one and it worked ok for a week and then had the screen please call this number, your cable box is not authorized for service. A service technician had to come out and replace it. He replaced it with an older passport box stating that tons of calls have been coming in with folks wanting the older boxes. This was his last one. Gotta love it! I guess I need to pull out my vcr to get a reliable recording!:D

I am consistantly getting the channel not available now after a good week of no missed recordings. I have rebooted the thing twice now.
My neighbor had one and it worked ok for a week and then had the screen please call this number, your cable box is not authorized for service. A service technician had to come out and replace it. He replaced it with an older passport box stating that tons of calls have been coming in with folks wanting the older boxes. This was his last one. Gotta love it! I guess I need to pull out my vcr to get a reliable recording!:D

Reboots did not help in my case, getting new box did (so far). Get the new box. Then if need be, another. And Another. Maybe they'll learn. The only downside is that you lose your recordings, but if the thing was skipping them anyway, there's not much to lose.

Time Warner uses it's own network. It's not the same as say Vonage. Last time I looked into it, this was verified. Unless they changed something. I would compare it to an Intranet setup within Time Warners service areas.

They HAVE to go public as long as they don't have every city wired. What you says would imply that one of those "cable modems" is NOT required for their phone service... which according to the tech I had in 2 days ago, was NOT possible.

Why not? Comcast launching Tivo based software will in no way impact Time Warner. Time Warner really only need to concern themselves with losing subs to satcos.

Think about that for a bit... the mere fact that Comcast is using known excellent, fully functioning software would normally impact TWC due to the fact they are putting in production clearly unfit software. You are correct in that I don't think ANYBODY can choose Comcast over TWC... both monopolize every market they are in. Nobody really has much of a choice between software that works reliably and one that doesn't.

It isn't just satcos, it's FIOS TWC REALLY REALLY has to worry about. AND the fact there are MANY customers who have been "screwed over" by TWC simply because they COULD screw them over that will lose them customers. It's things totally under their control... like I paid for a HD speciality tier that started with 5 HD channels and is now 3... they swore they WOULD replace the missing channels but never bothered to. Or they give one section of my city with 6 (maybe 7) MORE HD channels while they also offered ONLY them an 10% break on subscription pricing. Or the fact that they announce they are adding TBS HD to a bunch if markets that don't even have a home team, yet undoubtedly in my town that HAS not one but TWO local/home teams who probably will be in the playoffs and all their fans will have to watch in SD.

RR VOiP uses 'normal' VOiP technology but is on an intranet. RoadRunner and the VOiP service are on different QAM carriers so they have no impact on one another.

xnappo

The point I was trying to make was absent an functioning IP connection to RR, one can't use TWC phone service. A point confirmed by one of their techs and more than one CSR.

I would be incorrect if they used some form of non-IP encoding to get TO their network, is this what you know to be the case?

The point I was trying to make was absent an functioning IP connection to RR, one can't use TWC phone service. A point confirmed by one of their techs and more than one CSR.

I would be incorrect if they used some form of non-IP encoding to get TO their network, is this what you know to be the case?

No - you are right. They use IP encoding - however not over the internet proper and not using internet bandwidth. You can have digital phone without RoadRunner - but you still need a VOiP cable modem - they just disable the internet QAM frequency.

xnappo

Reboots did not help in my case, getting new box did (so far). Get the new box. Then if need be, another. And Another. Maybe they'll learn. The only downside is that you lose your recordings, but if the thing was skipping them anyway, there's not much to lose.

Thanks for the advice. Will do, I will just keep calling them. What a pain eh. All the new shows are coming on and who knows if I will get to see half of them with this pos navigator.

Through A Community Effort,

We Need To Get The Ball Rolling On This!

When your next Navigator box dies, regardless of where you live or even how many Navigator boxes you have had, I would suggest either:

Calling and speaking to a supervisor OR

Going to your local TWC office and speaking to a supervisor or get contact information for a supervisor so that you can communicate with them about Navigator's problems.

Maybe if 5000 people do this they will either find a way to:

1.) Go back to the Passport boxes.

OR.

2.) Get a competent software development team in place to fix these bugs.

OR

3.) Go to another IPG platform (Sara?) for a year, allowing them to freeze any more rollouts or downloads of Navigator until these bugs are fixed.

OR

4.) Get TWC to pay for Passport to upgrade their software.

Navigator's rollout should be STOPPED for a year, worked on in industry quality control labs, and analyzed for problems and needed improvements by an independent contract team. I would even ask the heads of your TWC division: "Would you say that 1000's of boxing being returned since the Navigator rollout would constitute a success for this company?"

If you talk to them, you can be nice about other services where they have been successful. If you have great Road Runner service or Digital Phone service, tell them about that too. Let them know that it is Navigator that is the only problem. It's not the boxes, but the Navigator software itself. I would even say, "I am thinking of going to satellite dish because I have had so many problems with Navigator." (Even if you aren't.) The more people that complain about Navigator the more likely action will be taken.

Jack

They HAVE to go public as long as they don't have every city wired. What you says would imply that one of those "cable modems" is NOT required for their phone service... which according to the tech I had in 2 days ago, was NOT possible.


xnappo understands what I am saying. Yes, you need the Telephony modem, but TWC has a dedicated frequency band for phone service. That was what I meant when I said you didn't need RoadRunner service to be a digital phone sub. Sorry for any confusion.


Think about that for a bit... the mere fact that Comcast is using known excellent, fully functioning software would normally impact TWC due to the fact they are putting in production clearly unfit software. You are correct in that I don't think ANYBODY can choose Comcast over TWC... both monopolize every market they are in. Nobody really has much of a choice between software that works reliably and one that doesn't.

It isn't just satcos, it's FIOS TWC REALLY REALLY has to worry about. AND the fact there are MANY customers who have been "screwed over" by TWC simply because they COULD screw them over that will lose them customers. It's things totally under their control... like I paid for a HD speciality tier that started with 5 HD channels and is now 3... they swore they WOULD replace the missing channels but never bothered to. Or they give one section of my city with 6 (maybe 7) MORE HD channels while they also offered ONLY them an 10% break on subscription pricing. Or the fact that they announce they are adding TBS HD to a bunch if markets that don't even have a home team, yet undoubtedly in my town that HAS not one but TWO local/home teams who probably will be in the playoffs and all their fans will have to watch in SD.

Yes, maybe in Manhattan/NYC market area, Up here in Central/Northern (even most of Western) New York, we are not going to see FiOS for a long time. In fact, where I'm at right now, RoadRunner is my ONLY (aside from sat) option for Internet and thankfully it has been outstanding. Syracuse on the other hand has DSL, Clearwire, and Cable. Where I live, I doubt we will see FiOS anytime soon.

Now, maybe if the Comcast Tivo thing goes over well and they see a great spike in subs, TWC might stop the bleeding and do something along that line. However, as long as TWC holds the franchise for a particular market or area then I don't think they are worried about what Comcast does. Just my opinion and I'm with everyone wants TWC to scrap Navigator and employ a competent third party company who can't get the job done.

Thanks for the advice. Will do, I will just keep calling them. What a pain eh. All the new shows are coming on and who knows if I will get to see half of them with this pos navigator.

I called them last Friday late (9pm or so), and had to wait for a while (15 minutes or so) on the phone. But, once I got somebody on the line, I had an appointment scheduled for the next day (Saturday) and by that afternoon, I had a new box. My first box lasted week about week and a half before developing problems; the second one has not given me any trouble yet (6 days). So, if you call tonight, you may have it tomorrow; then you can record all the new shows and decide which ones you are going to keep recording :)

By the way, I don't know if this has anything to do with speeding up the appearance of the bug, but I remember the issues started the night after I was recording two shows at the same time and trying to watch one of them from the beginning.

Up here in Central/Northern (even most of Western) New York, we are not going to see FiOS for a long time. Well Buffalo is WNY, and FiOS it there (but no TV service yet - currently Internet & Phone).

For everyone,

When you have problems with Navigator recording something on your DVR's, does it seem to happen more when you are recording a SERIES and you select "Record Series" as opposed to recording the shows individually? I always like to record the shows individually, because for some series, there are episodes that I prefer over others. I would rather have individual control over each show. (But maybe that's just me.)

In North Carolina, are they giving you the new Motorola boxes or are they SA's when you are getting the boxes? What brand of boxes are you getting in other areas? I heard, and maybe someone else mentioned this on the boards, that some areas were not getting Motorola boxes because they were still being tested. I think Sony makes digital cable boxes too, but I don't know of any TWC markets that are using them.

Here in the Milwaukee area, they still have a quite a lot of Passport Guide boxes that they are giving out. But they said that you really don't know whether or not its a Navigator or Passport enabled box until the tech plugs it in and contact with the head-end is activated.

Jack

Well Buffalo is WNY, and FiOS it there (but no TV service yet - currently Internet & Phone).

The TV portion is what I am referring to when I am talking about FiOS. I should have made that more clear, Syracuse also doesn't have TV yet. Basically I wouldn't switch over unless they offered video service because they aren't going to be saving me any money and I'm perfectly happy with my Digital Phone and Roadrunner. The only reason I'd be switching would be due to Navigator being such a hunk of steaming ... you know what! For that matter, if I'm going to switch then I'd look at DirecTV once they get this much ballyhooed HD content. I'd have to put out the feelers there to see how their DVR stacks up though.

In Raleigh/Durham, NC it is all SA boxes with Navigator AFAIK.

Ted

For everyone,

When you have problems with Navigator recording something on your DVR's, does it seem to happen more when you are recording a SERIES and you select "Record Series" as opposed to recording the shows individually? I always like to record the shows individually, because for some series, there are episodes that I prefer over others. I would rather have individual control over each show. (But maybe that's just me.)

In North Carolina, are they giving you the new Motorola boxes or are they SA's when you are getting the boxes? What brand of boxes are you getting in other areas? I heard, and maybe someone else mentioned this on the boards, that some areas were not getting Motorola boxes because they were still being tested. I think Sony makes digital cable boxes too, but I don't know of any TWC markets that are using them.

Here in the Milwaukee area, they still have a quite a lot of Passport Guide boxes that they are giving out. But they said that you really don't know whether or not its a Navigator or Passport enabled box until the tech plugs it in and contact with the head-end is activated.

Jack

For me it has always been a series recording. I like to set it and forget so to speak. In fact I caught it last night not recording, so I went to that channel and hit record and it worked fine. They are all SA 8300HDC's here with the nav pos on them.

For me it has always been a series recording. I like to set it and forget so to speak. In fact I caught it last night not recording, so I went to that channel and hit record and it worked fine. They are all SA 8300HDC's here with the nav pos on them.

For Navigator, does it have the option in the Series Manager like Passport that says, "Episodes to keep?" and than prompts for how you want to keep them? What are your options on these screens for a series recording?

FOR EVERYONE:

If Navigator is "forgetting" to record a series what apply to you?:

1.) It records the first show chronologically in the Guide's Time slot that is set to record but no other subsequent recordings of the show even though I select, "record entire series"

2.) Navigator is not differentiating between new episodes and repeat episodes. It records the first show if it's new, but not others.

3.) Navigator stops recording in the middle of a new show as a part of a series.

4.) Navigator stops recording or does not record a new show that begins in the guide at a strange time. (i.e 7:05 PM or 9:35 AM) Or if it records, it picks up a show on the hour or half hour instead of the start time.

5.) The recording process is so unpredictable that it's a 50/50 crap-shoot to reproduce the any errors regardless of recording individual programs or series.

6.) Do the series recording problems happen more on HD channels than SD channels?

7.) Have you had any problems individually recording each show? (i.e not selecting record entire series?)

8.) Do you have large problems trying to record two shows that are overlapping in the same time slots, regardless of how it says to deal with the conflict? If so, is the problem:

a.) I get no conflict message if I have programed two over-lapping shows to record at the same times, but nothing records, or Navigator records incorrectly?

b.) I get a conflict message, tell Navigator how I want the recordings to be handled and the conflict is never handled. (The Series Manager gives out inaccurate information.)

It sounds like a huge Navigator bug are the problems with series recordings more so than individual recordings where this software doesn't know how to handle an entire series of a show. Selecting individual recording of a show, while not always perfect seems to work better.

If this is the case, could it be that the new Navigator may be too prioritized in favoring new first-run shows over later reruned shows as part of a series time-slot?

Jack

Service guy was out this morning to my house for problem on my 8300 Passport box. He said that TWC was sending down "a ton" of updates to the OCAP boxes yesterday. Then at end of day they were instructed to turn in *all* of their OCAP/Navigator boxes to the office. They weren't told if/when they'd get them back.

They were given old SA8000DVRs to run calls, evidently no Passport 8300s left.

Well the 8000 box had the same Passport bug that the 8300 did but 8000 was horribly slow and locked up once while he was standing there. Asking for my old box back I''m told by technician (and I kid you not) "Since I already swapped it in our system, I have to take it to the warehouse." He called in but office said there was nothing they could do, box's serial number is disabled on network, bla, bla, bla.

I threatened to drop TWC and go with D* and they wouldn't budge.

The 8000 is worse than the OCAP/Navigator box. I should have lived with the 8300 problem (missing on-demand HD shows).

xnappo understands what I am saying. Yes, you need the Telephony modem, but TWC has a dedicated frequency band for phone service. That was what I meant when I said you didn't need RoadRunner service to be a digital phone sub. Sorry for any confusion.

No prob, it's a discussion that hasn't stooped to personal insults!

I suppose that it COULD be possible that the kinds of troubles I've had with doing IP might not happen if the phone service uses a different frequency, but I kinda believed the tech's expression when I said "so if this modem has issues connecting, would I lose telephone service."

Service guy was out this morning to my house for problem on my 8300 Passport box. He said that TWC was sending down "a ton" of updates to the OCAP boxes yesterday. Then at end of day they were instructed to turn in *all* of their OCAP/Navigator boxes to the office. They weren't told if/when they'd get them back.

They were given old SA8000DVRs to run calls, evidently no Passport 8300s left.

Well the 8000 box had the same Passport bug that the 8300 did but 8000 was horribly slow and locked up once while he was standing there. Asking for my old box back I''m told by technician (and I kid you not) "Since I already swapped it in our system, I have to take it to the warehouse." He called in but office said there was nothing they could do, box's serial number is disabled on network, bla, bla, bla.

I threatened to drop TWC and go with D* and they wouldn't budge.

The 8000 is worse than the OCAP/Navigator box. I should have lived with the 8300 problem (missing on-demand HD shows).


WOW!!

Sorry that you are having problems with your SA 8000. BUT at least I like the idea of them turning in the OCAP Navigator boxes! When they do a recall like that, at least your local office is saying, "newer isn't better" and "Houston, we have a problem here."

In what areas is your SA 8000 slow? Did you try a cold reboot? I did that on my Passport DVR. (Unplug the unit for a minute, than plug it back in.) My VOD services came back after that.

Jack

Well, I'm stuck with Navigator now. Its easy to see why they call it the "OCRAP" box.

When I went into TWC office, they said they could only replace the 8000 with new 8300/Naviagator so I took it. (8000 was super, super slow). So in space of 2 hours I lost my Passport box. I don't know what's going on with the OCAP boxes, girl at counter said the Navigator boxes were all they had. So techs get their boxes pulled but service counter doesn't??

I've got Navigator box up and running over component. I'm feeding my old HT receiver analog audio, its not as good as what I got on Passport box. Gives me 3 choices: wide, normal, narrow. If I select wide or normal, the audio volume reduces by at least 2/3..unacceptable. If I select Narrow, the volume is right but I get very little out of any of my other 5.1 setup other than center channel.

I think I was getting ProLogic from the Passport box, now I'm not. I'm also getting occasional audio dropout.

Any suggestions on how to fix audio?

Service guy was out this morning to my house for problem on my 8300 Passport box. He said that TWC was sending down "a ton" of updates to the OCAP boxes yesterday. Then at end of day they were instructed to turn in *all* of their OCAP/Navigator boxes to the office. They weren't told if/when they'd get them back.


Where are you? Please put your location in your profile.

Where are you? Please put your location in your profile.I'd put my money on Ohio. :cool: But... it is important for posters to add their location.

Dayton Ohio.

For Navigator, does it have the option in the Series Manager like Passport that says, "Episodes to keep?" and than prompts for how you want to keep them? What are your options on these screens for a series recording?

FOR EVERYONE:

If Navigator is "forgetting" to record a series what apply to you?:

1.) It records the first show chronologically in the Guide's Time slot that is set to record but no other subsequent recordings of the show even though I select, "record entire series"

2.) Navigator is not differentiating between new episodes and repeat episodes. It records the first show if it's new, but not others.

3.) Navigator stops recording in the middle of a new show as a part of a series.

4.) Navigator stops recording or does not record a new show that begins in the guide at a strange time. (i.e 7:05 PM or 9:35 AM) Or if it records, it picks up a show on the hour or half hour instead of the start time.

5.) The recording process is so unpredictable that it's a 50/50 crap-shoot to reproduce the any errors regardless of recording individual programs or series.

6.) Do the series recording problems happen more on HD channels than SD channels?

7.) Have you had any problems individually recording each show? (i.e not selecting record entire series?)

8.) Do you have large problems trying to record two shows that are overlapping in the same time slots, regardless of how it says to deal with the conflict? If so, is the problem:

a.) I get no conflict message if I have programed two over-lapping shows to record at the same times, but nothing records, or Navigator records incorrectly?

b.) I get a conflict message, tell Navigator how I want the recordings to be handled and the conflict is never handled. (The Series Manager gives out inaccurate information.)

It sounds like a huge Navigator bug are the problems with series recordings more so than individual recordings where this software doesn't know how to handle an entire series of a show. Selecting individual recording of a show, while not always perfect seems to work better.

If this is the case, could it be that the new Navigator may be too prioritized in favoring new first-run shows over later reruned shows as part of a series time-slot?

Jack

I guess a few things so a Passport user will know what to expect are in order:

The options are:
- how many episodes to keep - minimum is 3
- record new or new and old
- pad start time / end time

Looking at the way it works, I am pretty sure that it is driven by its "To Do" list (called "Scheduled Recordings" in the menu). Every time an event that can change the list occurs (like scheduling a show to record, changing an option on an existing recoding, getting schedule for the next day) it stops everything to update the To Do list. I am pretty sure that when time comes, it only looks there to decide what to record (it would just not make sense from the software development standpoint to do it anyhow else, and the thing at least somewhat works, so the developers are only somewhat incompetent, not drooling idiots). You can always check the To Do list to make sure that it will (attempt to) record the right thing, so what it decides to record is that big of an issue with me, as I always check to make sure it makes sense. If there is a conflict, if you look at the To DO list, one of the three shows scheduled for the same time is listed with a conflict flag, and you can select it and choose which one of the three to cancel; if you do nothing, the one with the flag will end up not being recorded. The algorithm for auto deciding which one to drop could not be simpler: newer ones win, so if you want a show to have high priority, you got to delete it and reschedule it (quite lame, but at least predictable). I've heard that maybe in newer version in Nebraska that is improved upon (i.e. that you can set the priority of a series, and also what time of day to record, like Passport - which is quite handy for those shows that repeat the same thing several times, and there is no reliable "New" flag - NFL Live is a good example).
Hence, it looks to me that it does not really care whether a show is a series or individual, they are all converted to individual in To Do list, so, once that list is OK, there are no such surprises (to be fair, To Do list has a good feature: you can cancel individual recordings). Therefore, it is not surprising that the issues I had with "channel not available" were present in both series and individual shows, about evenly. The box has a Recording Log (that's where the dreaded "channel not available" message shows up), so you know it made an attempt to record the show, it could not be a mix up of the "did not think it should record that show at that time" type. It also comes up handy as a proof to TW techs that you are not jerking them around, but have a real issue. Now, that was the only issue I had, other than general user hostility of that interface, but it was a big one. I can live with user hostile parts of it, but not with never knowing if the show is going to record or not. Luckily, so far (7 days) the new box seems OK. If it conks out as well, I’ll give HD Tivo a serious look. I am just afraid of sinking money into it and having it not really work if/when TW does switched video in my area.

The problems were showing on SciFi channel, Comedy Central, ESPNHD and HDNet Movies, so you got both SD and HD well represented. Also, the box did not completely decide to quit recording, only about 50% of the time, you never know when. And I am positive that there were no real issues with the channels: once I caught the box being very slow to respond, then I realized that it is supposed to start recording a show, and a quick check found “channel not available” message. I tuned to the channel in question in the Channel Guide and hit record, no problem (other than loosing the first minute). Happened twice, too (and several times when box was not used to watch, so it is not “being overloaded watching and recording at the same time”).

So, from your list, only #5 really applies, and that is only with the defective box (but it could be that the software is defective and will eventually make every box defective – note that reboots do not fix the situation.

Note that I have only 3 weeks of experience with this, but I’ve read other people complain about the exact same bug, and that is not something that is easy to forgive – my trusty 10 year old ReplayTV 3060 has never, ever, skipped a recording for any reason other than power failure (and since it’s been on UPS most of the time, it had to be a long power failure), and its seen heavy use every day (my daughter now records just as much I used to, with no issues).

On the other hand, if they would make the box reliable, I could live with the user hostility; I know they’ll purposely never implement my favorite thing – 30 second skip.

Dayton Ohio.But you could add it to your profile, so folks don't have to ask when they think it may be relevant (and if often is when we are discussing cable).

Looking at the way it works, I am pretty sure that it is driven by its "To Do" list (called "Scheduled Recordings" in the menu). Every time an event that can change the list occurs (like scheduling a show to record, changing an option on an existing recoding, getting schedule for the next day) it stops everything to update the To Do list. I am pretty sure that when time comes, it only looks there to decide what to record (it would just not make sense from the software development standpoint to do it anyhow else, and the thing at least somewhat works, so the developers are only somewhat incompetent, not drooling idiots). You can always check the To Do list to make sure that it will (attempt to) record the right thing, so what it decides to record is that big of an issue with me, as I always check to make sure it makes sense. If there is a conflict, if you look at the To DO list, one of the three shows scheduled for the same time is listed with a conflict flag, and you can select it and choose which one of the three to cancel; if you do nothing, the one with the flag will end up not being recorded. The algorithm for auto deciding which one to drop could not be simpler: newer ones win, so if you want a show to have high priority, you got to delete it and reschedule it (quite lame, but at least predictable). I've heard that maybe in newer version in Nebraska that is improved upon (i.e. that you can set the priority of a series, and also what time of day to record, like Passport - which is quite handy for those shows that repeat the same thing several times, and there is no reliable "New" flag - NFL Live is a good example).
Hence, it looks to me that it does not really care whether a show is a series or individual, they are all converted to individual in To Do list, so, once that list is OK, there are no such surprises (to be fair, To Do list has a good feature: you can cancel individual recordings). Therefore, it is not surprising that the issues I had with "channel not available" were present in both series and individual shows, about evenly. The box has a Recording Log (that's where the dreaded "channel not available" message shows up), so you know it made an attempt to record the show, it could not be a mix up of the "did not think it should record that show at that time" type. It also comes up handy as a proof to TW techs that you are not jerking them around, but have a real issue. Now, that was the only issue I had, other than general user hostility of that interface, but it was a big one. I can live with user hostile parts of it, but not with never knowing if the show is going to record or not. Luckily, so far (7 days) the new box seems OK. If it conks out as well, I’ll give HD Tivo a serious look. I am just afraid of sinking money into it and having it not really work if/when TW does switched video in my area.

The problems were showing on SciFi channel, Comedy Central, ESPNHD and HDNet Movies, so you got both SD and HD well represented. Also, the box did not completely decide to quit recording, only about 50% of the time, you never know when. And I am positive that there were no real issues with the channels: once I caught the box being very slow to respond, then I realized that it is supposed to start recording a show, and a quick check found “channel not available” message. I tuned to the channel in question in the Channel Guide and hit record, no problem (other than loosing the first minute). Happened twice, too (and several times when box was not used to watch, so it is not “being overloaded watching and recording at the same time”).

So, from your list, only #5 really applies, and that is only with the defective box (but it could be that the software is defective and will eventually make every box defective – note that reboots do not fix the situation.


Thank you for that info! So I would gather that you can not keep a recording longer under Navigator like you can with Passport by prioritizing it in the list? Because I am very conservative about storage and erase almost everything after I have recorded it and viewed it one time, I don't think that I will have to worry about running out of DVR storage space.

If priority is given to the newest recordings than users should keep that in mind when scheduling shows. However, it appears that an update that would allow the user to manually prioritize the list would be beneficial. The more that Navigator becomes "like Passport" both in features and functionality, the easier the transition will be. It just sounds like TWC still has another 6 months to a year to get to that point. That STILL remains a problem.

Oh I was also going to ask, have you had any trouble ordering, or recording PPV shows or VOD (Video On Demand) programs through Navigator? I am to assume that if you are using purchase protection pin numbers and you got Navigator as a DOWNLOAD update that your pin numbers, favorite channel settings, and so forth had to be reset.

Did any of you get lucky where your Passport recorded shows or scheduled recordings on your DVR were still there after the upgrade?

Jack

Thank you for that info! So I would gather that you can not keep a recording longer under Navigator like you can with Passport by prioritizing it in the list? Because I am very conservative about storage and erase almost everything after I have recorded it and viewed it one time, I don't think that I will have to worry about running out of DVR storage space.

If priority is given to the newest recordings than users should keep that in mind when scheduling shows. However, it appears that an update that would allow the user to manually prioritize the list would be beneficial. The more that Navigator becomes "like Passport" both in features and functionality, the easier the transition will be. It just sounds like TWC still has another 6 months to a year to get to that point. That STILL remains a problem.

Oh I was also going to ask, have you had any trouble ordering, or recording PPV shows or VOD (Video On Demand) programs through Navigator? I am to assume that if you are using purchase protection pin numbers and you got Navigator as a DOWNLOAD update that your pin numbers, favorite channel settings, and so forth had to be reset.

Did any of you get lucky where your Passport recorded shows or scheduled recordings on your DVR were still there after the upgrade?

Jack

There is an "until space is needed/do not delete" option for individual recordings. It is also available on individual episodes of a series (i.e. when you can see them, either in To Do list or Recorded list). It is part of Record Options (as opposed to Record Series options; episodes of a series show both menu items), so you can preserve any show you like, but there is no way to set "until space is needed/do not delete" on the whole series; every episode is initially set to "until space is needed", so you have to manually override each. Not a big deal, but looks like an easy thing to improve on.

I ordered one HD Movie on Demand, and had no trouble with it - it was available for 24 hours, so you can watch it repeatedly during that time period. I do not use a pin.

Actually, I had another, much more annoying user hostile experience. I was recording two shows and watching a prerecorded one. When the prerecorded one finished (and I deleted it), the thing bumped me to the live view of one of the tuners, as it always does. Now, since I was recording on both tuners, I was now in the middle of a show I was recording. I don't want to know what happens in the middle (it was a game, I don't want to know the score)! It should recognize that you are recording and get you to the beginning of the show instead. Then I hit the pause button, and the box interpreted that as "stop recording, but keep playing". Now, that is as lame as can be. It sure looks like the people who are working on Navigator are not using it themselves.

It seems I recently received 2.4.5_4. Anyone notice that the "time bar", the dispay shown when fast forwarding, rewinding, etc. is gone. I get a banner that says "iControl". Anyone else experiencing this? Not only does the upgrade not seem to fix anything I can't even tell how far into a recording I am now! Nuts. BTW, I'm in Staten Island.

Well, TWC must be feeling some heat from FiOS because every commercial they are running now touts their "Advanced Fiber Network" at the end. I wish we had FiOS as an option here, but that ain't gonna happen. If DirecTV ever launches these additional HD channels, I may seriously look at switching over.

However, here is what I think. TWC isn't concerned with losing subs because it's not impacting them in a big way yet. Sure they are losing tech savvy subs who know what a piece of crap Navigator is, but by the same token I'd be willing to guess the bulk of the subs are technologically impaired people who still have a VCR flashing 12:00 and just don't know any better. I see them whenever I'm at the local office for any business. I've run into people who don't even know how to use the on screen guide. They have a hard enough time with cable and can't fathom switching to satellite. Until there is enough uproar on a large scale, TWC will continue to push Navigator. After all, what's the latest from Lincoln? There was a big to do about it with local pols getting involved and town meeting, but it is now over a year later and what has changed?

Actually, I had another, much more annoying user hostile experience. I was recording two shows and watching a prerecorded one. When the prerecorded one finished (and I deleted it), the thing bumped me to the live view of one of the tuners, as it always does. Now, since I was recording on both tuners, I was now in the middle of a show I was recording. I don't want to know what happens in the middle (it was a game, I don't want to know the score)! It should recognize that you are recording and get you to the beginning of the show instead. Then I hit the pause button, and the box interpreted that as "stop recording, but keep playing". Now, that is as lame as can be. It sure looks like the people who are working on Navigator are not using it themselves.

I've long thought that DVR designers should add a channel zero (any other unused channel would work, but "zero" kind of fits). This would be a channel that merely displays a splash screen and uses no tuner. Thus, even with two shows being recorded, you could change the channel to channel zero to avoid your problem of seeing the show in progress when your playback ends.

Also, you could configure your box's power-on station to be channel zero to avoid spoiling any sports in progress.

I guess that now is probably a bad time to ask for more functionality in Navigator. We should probably let TWC focus on getting their current product working before asking for more.

-barry

Barry, you can already accomplish that... sort of. Channels in the 1000-10xx range are NOT buffered, so tuning into 1000 means no disk activity from that tuner. If you carefully set both tuners, one to 1000 the other 1002 (fer instance) your box will totally get quiet as nothing is buffering (being written to the HD).

That being said, I have been doing that for at least 4-5 months and honestly haven't really noticed that much difference. The glitches and drop-outs I was hoping to eliminate are not eliminated. I believe that those artifacts are part of the issue with bandwidth, they ere god awful after ESPN2 HD was added, but gradually got a bit better... and from Scott, we see that they HAVE used rate shaping to reduce bandwidth need.

Barry, you can already accomplish that... sort of. Channels in the 1000-10xx range are NOT buffered, so tuning into 1000 means no disk activity from that tuner. If you carefully set both tuners, one to 1000 the other 1002 (fer instance) your box will totally get quiet as nothing is buffering (being written to the HD).

That being said, I have been doing that for at least 4-5 months and honestly haven't really noticed that much difference. The glitches and drop-outs I was hoping to eliminate are not eliminated. I believe that those artifacts are part of the issue with bandwidth, they ere god awful after ESPN2 HD was added, but gradually got a bit better... and from Scott, we see that they HAVE used rate shaping to reduce bandwidth need.

That does address part of the issue; it does not address my main concern - it would be nice to have the ability to not display any live channel, especially when both tuners are busy recording and tuned to regular channels. If both tuners are busy recording, and you turn the machine on or just finish watching a pre-recorded show, it should give you only a splash screen or start one of the recordings from the beginning, not just display one of the tuners live - that creates spoiler for the show you are recording and have not started watching yet, especially if it is a game and you can not help but see or hear the score.

However, here is what I think. TWC isn't concerned with losing subs because it's not impacting them in a big way yet. Sure they are losing tech savvy subs who know what a piece of crap Navigator is, but by the same token I'd be willing to guess the bulk of the subs are technologically impaired people who still have a VCR flashing 12:00 and just don't know any better. I see them whenever I'm at the local office for any business. I've run into people who don't even know how to use the on screen guide. They have a hard enough time with cable and can't fathom switching to satellite. Until there is enough uproar on a large scale, TWC will continue to push Navigator. After all, what's the latest from Lincoln? There was a big to do about it with local pols getting involved and town meeting, but it is now over a year later and what has changed?

This is a fabulous post,

To put it into further perspective, I recall that CNET did a survey of general computer knowledge, (I mean BASIC remedial things) and of the returned responses it was found that 75% of the people surveyed did not know the difference between anti-virus software and a firewall. I mean, I am anything but a top authority on computers, but I do have general above knowledge of hardware, software, and security to know how to keep my system protected and regularly updated. I learned from another survey that about 25% of people out there don't even have a computer or Internet service.

I think the reasons are because there is such a large curve of older people out there who either:

1.) Don't care about new technology: (Or don't know how to use it) All they want to do is turn it on, do their thing, and forget about it. Their use if they can do anything else is very very basic.

2.) Don't have the time to learn: Or when you try to teach them something it just goes in one ear and out the other. They may have school, job, or family activities, and they just are not into learning about a new technology. Some may even see the new color of the guide and think, "Why is my screen all funny?" Many people just don't have the time to learn about an update. Many people, especially elderly people don't like change.

3.) Are economically suffering: Let's face it, cable or dish is VERY expensive and there are some who can barely afford cable or dish. Some are happy with a 2-99 analog box, a few may not even have a box because for some, Cable at its lowest service level, they may look at this and say: "Is this necessary for me?" Many can't afford it, say no, and go about perhaps not even having cable at all.

The point is exactly what the other poster was talking about above. You have to have a social and economic impact of new technology that affects the greatest number of people in a big way before action MIGHT be taken. Navigator isn't at that point yet. While I would still encourage people to contact higher-ups with letters or phone calls to them of you are having Navigator problems, remember that we are only a small number of people on a forum. This issue has to impact a large number of people. Whether or not it does is going to be contingent on how well the bugs are worked out over the course of the next 6 months as the national roll-out is implemented.

Jack

1st week on Navigator:

-I'm getting infrequent audio dropouts over analog stereo out across variety of channels.
-Video is strong, no indications of drop outs or loss in general. However I do see breakups or blocking during sports broadcasts (Bengal's helmets break up during close-ups).I'm assuming this is out of TWC control. Haven't noticed it on movies but will keep looking.
-This guide sucks. Slow, too many button pushes to record a series ....why can't you set default recording preference?...No options to record anytime versus a set time window. It looks like it records anytime the show is on by default...I think.

I was drooling over how fast the D* menu guide was at Bestbuy...

Barry, you can already accomplish that... sort of. Channels in the 1000-10xx range are NOT buffered, so tuning into 1000 means no disk activity from that tuner. If you carefully set both tuners, one to 1000 the other 1002 (fer instance) your box will totally get quiet as nothing is buffering (being written to the HD).

That being said, I have been doing that for at least 4-5 months and honestly haven't really noticed that much difference. The glitches and drop-outs I was hoping to eliminate are not eliminated. I believe that those artifacts are part of the issue with bandwidth, they ere god awful after ESPN2 HD was added, but gradually got a bit better... and from Scott, we see that they HAVE used rate shaping to reduce bandwidth need.

I think you are trying to solve a different problem than I am. You cannot tune to channel 1000 and continue to simultaneously record two different shows. Thus you cannot avoid seeing spoilers in shows you are recording.

-barry

I think you are trying to solve a different problem than I am. You cannot tune to channel 1000 and continue to simultaneously record two different shows. Thus you cannot avoid seeing spoilers in shows you are recording.

-Barry

Yes,

Everyone should note this. Your I-Control (a.k.a Video on Demand channels) on channel 1000+ can NOT be recorded. This is not a Navigator bug, but the way that VOD is currently set up. Music Choice Channels also can not be recorded onto your DVR regardless of your IPG software. This is because of copyright laws.

You can record PPV movies and special events on your conventional PPV channels, but not on I-Control VOD.

You also can not record any channel that is specified as running "All Day" in the Channel Banner. Recordings are menu driven by the time slots in the IPG with the NEWEST recordings taking precedence over older recordings should a conflict occur.

Jack

Actually, I had another, much more annoying user hostile experience. I was recording two shows and watching a prerecorded one. When the prerecorded one finished (and I deleted it), the thing bumped me to the live view of one of the tuners, as it always does. Now, since I was recording on both tuners, I was now in the middle of a show I was recording. I don't want to know what happens in the middle (it was a game, I don't want to know the score)! It should recognize that you are recording and get you to the beginning of the show instead. Then I hit the pause button, and the box interpreted that as "stop recording, but keep playing". Now, that is as lame as can be. It sure looks like the people who are working on Navigator are not using it themselves.

Well I solve this by choosing another recorded show to view, then pausing it.

Well I solve this by choosing another recorded show to view, then pausing it.

Good idea, works in the case I mentioned. Wish there was a workaround for a similar situation: you are recording two things with the machine off, and you want to turn it on to watch something (other than not turning TV on, and doing the remote thing blindly until you set the box to watch something else).

Another somewhat related thing: if you have two things recording, while watching something third, if you want to switch to watching *from the beginning* either one of the currectly recording shows by going to the List, you may be surprised to see that Play is missing from the menu when you select either one of the two shows. There is a way to do it though: switch to Live, close your eyes to avoid spoilers (maybe mute also), and go back to the List, (do not look at the quarter screen): Play has magically returned, and it means "play from the beginning" - apparently, the Live watching does not count as regular watching (i.e. does not change the show's "resume point"), but somehow makes the show available to watch. By the way, while you are watching the thing Live, before you hit List, do not hit any transport button (like pause), or else your show may stop recording (but will keep playing after a momentary blank screen). Note that the Play menu item is missing only if you never watched either one of the two shows (i.e. they both started recording while you were watching something else).

You know, I'm listening to everyone try and figure out "workarounds", I for one don't think we should have to. I'm currently paying TWC about $150 a month for my services and I enjoy them. However, at that price I fully expect everything to work as advertised. Anyone with Navigator right now should be demanding a steep discount of at least free DVR service until such a time that it works properly.

I just saw the HD channels that DirecTV will be adding in October and while it's quite a ways off that 100 they were touting, there are still about 50 and many are channels I actually want! Time Warner better get their stuff together and fast, otherwise all they are going to get out of me is a sub for RoadRunner!

You know, I'm listening to everyone try and figure out "workarounds", I for one don't think we should have to. I'm currently paying TWC about $150 a month for my services and I enjoy them. However, at that price I fully expect everything to work as advertised. Anyone with Navigator right now should be demanding a steep discount of at least free DVR service until such a time that it works properly.

I just saw the HD channels that DirecTV will be adding in October and while it's quite a ways off that 100 they were touting, there are still about 50 and many are channels I actually want! Time Warner better get their stuff together and fast, otherwise all they are going to get out of me is a sub for RoadRunner!

October, huh? :rolleyes:

Not to be irreverent, but D* is getting to be a bit silly with their constant delays.

Ted

October, huh? :rolleyes:

Not to be irreverent, but D* is getting to be a bit silly with their constant delays.

TedWell at least they are making some sort of promises - much better than TW saying little (and delivering less :rolleyes:)

....Anyone with Navigator right now should be demanding a steep discount of at least free DVR service until such a time that it works properly...

FYI, I managed to secure this for 6 months after requesting a supervisor callback.

You know, I'm listening to everyone try and figure out "workarounds", I for one don't think we should have to. I'm currently paying TWC about $150 a month for my services and I enjoy them. However, at that price I fully expect everything to work as advertised. Anyone with Navigator right now should be demanding a steep discount of at least free DVR service until such a time that it works properly.

Excellent idea!

I would encourage EVERYONE who has Navigator and is not happy to tell all of your relatives and friends about this forum section. Call supervisors, higher ups in your division, and just keep bugging them for discounts such as free DVR service, or whatever perks you might be interested in until TWC can get Navigator working to a level AS GOOD OR BETTER THAN PASSPORT.

As an off-topic, Ted, I was wondering how you like your Satalite Services?

Jack

I am looking into satellite myself with the impending doom of Navigator at the doorstep. The downside is that to get a level of service on par with what I am currently getting from TWC is significantly more expensive. Dish wants an extra $20 a month to get most of what I get free with Time Warner and the start up and subsequent monthly cost of DirecTV will be more at least $10 more. And that's without the additional outlet fees! I am still willing to give Navigator a try, but right now see nothing wrong with the SARA based software. I have had maybe one missed recording since I got DVR service. In fact, my only gripes remain the ugly GUI, useless search, and lack of guide customization (IE: adding and deleting channels from the guide, etc.) You can be sure that if Navigator comes with all it's current issues then I will be very vocal about it here. I might even do a website similar to our UticaHDTV.com site to bring attention to the problem!

Give it a try. It's not that bad. I've been a Passport user for years now. I was on the list for when the first DVRs were put into the field. And have been using the HD version for well over 3 years now. I too had nightmares about the Navigator switch.

But no more. At least at the moment. I pro actively went out and added a SA8300HDC box to my account. I was pleasantly surprised with Navigator. Perhaps I was expecting much less because of a lot of the posts I read here. It works fine. I'll be running my SA8300HD next to the new SA8300HDC for a few weeks so I can compare the performance of the two side by side.

I already like some things that Navigator offers better than Passport. And of course like some things Passport offers that Navigator does not. But it is far from a disaster in my case.

Here's one thing that Navigator can do that Passport does not. And I'm going to use CAPS for this:

NAVIGATOR SUPPORTS ESATA DRIVES WITH TRICK PLAY.

To me this is huge. It did reformat the esata drive I was using with the Passport box. So make sure there is no content on the esata drive you care about.

I think you are trying to solve a different problem than I am. You cannot tune to channel 1000 and continue to simultaneously record two different shows. Thus you cannot avoid seeing spoilers in shows you are recording.

-barry

Sorry, somehow I didn't get that from the post I was responding to... probably read it way too quickly!

Time Warner better get their stuff together and fast, otherwise all they are going to get out of me is a sub for RoadRunner!

Oh, they have you by the b*lls there as well. You will pay $15 MORE per month for having only RR... i.e. $60/month.

Oh, they have you by the b*lls there as well. You will pay $15 MORE per month for having only RR... i.e. $60/month.

That varies by region...in Raleigh-Durham, I get a whopping $5 discount on RR for having $150/month in cable services. So my RR would only be $50/month without cable vs. $45 with cable.

Give it a try. It's not that bad. I've been a Passport user for years now. I was on the list for when the first DVRs were put into the field. And have been using the HD version for well over 3 years now. I too had nightmares about the Navigator switch.

But no more. At least at the moment. I pro actively went out and added a SA8300HDC box to my account. I was pleasantly surprised with Navigator. ......

Wow. First 'glowing' (as it were) review I've heard!

What code level are you on?

You've had no problems with Series Recordings?

Have you tried starting to watch a show that is recording from the beginning before it is done recording?


It's this last one that drives me crazy, and why I called to complain to TWC about the 'lack of DVR functionality on my DVR'.

If you have a newer code level that is functioning better, that is encouraging news. (I'm on 2.4.5_4)

Yea, Roadrunner only here runs $46 and change because you have to lease a modem. They won't let you use your own.

On a side note, I'm having an issue with my 8300HD where only one channel won't come in. A&E HD is acting as if it is having a signal level issue. Black screen/no sound. Tried a reboot, but nada. TWC is sending a tech out Monday and I have a gut feeling that I may be getting a replacement 8300HDC. This will suck because I have the DVR completely setup for the fall season and would thus have to reprogram it. That got me thinking about this. With SD cards being so cheap nowadays, wouldn't it be nice to have a slot on the box that could be used for saving all your data. Then all you would have to do when a replacement box was issue would be swap the SD card and it would be like nothing changed.

Anyway, as far I know TWC is not deploying Navigator enabled boxes here yet. I will report after Monday to let you know if this has changed!

Give it a try. It's not that bad. I've been a Passport user for years now. I was on the list for when the first DVRs were put into the field. And have been using the HD version for well over 3 years now. I too had nightmares about the Navigator switch.

But no more. At least at the moment. I pro actively went out and added a SA8300HDC box to my account. I was pleasantly surprised with Navigator. Perhaps I was expecting much less because of a lot of the posts I read here. It works fine. I'll be running my SA8300HD next to the new SA8300HDC for a few weeks so I can compare the performance of the two side by side.

I already like some things that Navigator offers better than Passport. And of course like some things Passport offers that Navigator does not. But it is far from a disaster in my case.

Here's one thing that Navigator can do that Passport does not. And I'm going to use CAPS for this:

NAVIGATOR SUPPORTS ESATA DRIVES WITH TRICK PLAY.

To me this is huge. It did reformat the esata drive I was using with the Passport box. So make sure there is no content on the esata drive you care about.

Like you, I've had the SA8300HD with Passport since they were available...I have 2 Passport boxes and also pro-actively got a 83000HDC (3rd box) with Navigator to check it out...

There are some basic recording options that are missing with Navigator, and the skipback doesn't work or doesn't work as well as Passport. I miss the 15 minute skip as well.
On the plus side...you can mark channels as favorites, and have them put first in the guide...a baby step, but better than nothing.
I think the interface actually looks cleaner than Passport (just personal preference), but also, the fonts are much clearer on an HD set than Passport's (which I think look lousy).

The BIG GRIPE I have with Navigator is the fact it doesn't reliably record your shows...the mysterious "Tuner not available" error is un-forgiveable. So after a week or two of everything going along okay (and me thinking that Navigator isn't so bad...) it suddenly stops recording everything. After several resets, things work normally again...for a week or two, and then no recordings again.

When or if they actually get Navigator to do what they say it is supposed to, it will be an okay DVR...right now it is a beta product.

I guess time will tell. I'll have to give it at least a few weeks.

One thing I have noticed is that it is a lot faster than my Passport box. The guide pops up almost instantaneously and scrolling the guide is faster. There is no more "loading data" pauses as with Passport.

Also I like the fact that it has an option to power on by pressing a number key. This is a nice feature for those of us who use an IR blaster with DVD recorders when setting timer recordings. I've missed a few in the past with Passport because I had the box turned off.

I guess time will tell. I'll have to give it at least a few weeks.

One thing I have noticed is that it is a lot faster than my Passport box. The guide pops up almost instantaneously and scrolling the guide is faster. There is no more "loading data" pauses as with Passport.

Also I like the fact that it has an option to power on by pressing a number key. This is a nice feature for those of us who use an IR blaster with DVD recorders when setting timer recordings. I've missed a few in the past with Passport because I had the box turned off.

What I'm finding funny is that all the features people like have been on the SARA software for years now! Power on by number, hard drive "gas" gauge, Caller ID on TV, expanded record options, etc.

Give it a try. It's not that bad.

I would second that. After a year with an 8300HD Passport, I got an 8300HDC Navigator box, so I now have both. I prefer Passport by a wide margin, but still, the version of Navigator I have (TWC NYC/Brooklyn) is OK. It works.

The box takes an eternity to boot up, and navigation is sluggish. The option menus are confusing. The guide is a work in progress - no 'star' ratings for movies, indications of New/Repeat/Live are often missing and/or inconsistent.

But... lots of recordings so far, and nothing missed. Drop-outs etc similar to Passport. I've had it for two weeks now, use it every day, and I'm surviving with it.

Hold on to your Passport boxes for dear life, but if do you lose them, or if they suddenly get converted, don't despair... you might be OK.

Or not. I've been lucky so far, but it's clearly a flaky product.

Navigator week 2:
Had a chance to watch "series" recorded shows last night for the first time. All episodes were recorded as specified, no issues. I agree with other posters that I've learned to live with it. There are some features that are better (HD Now Program Finder).

I really need to solve the audio drop outs though, very annoying. I'm wondering if going to optical connection to my receiver will fix it.

Anyone using Navigator HDC box with HDMI or Optical output? Hows the audio?

I'm using optical to rcvr...seems fine.

There are some basic recording options that are missing with Navigator, and the skipback doesn't work or doesn't work as well as Passport. I miss the 15 minute skip as well.

The 15 minute skip feature is there. Hold down the FF or RW button for about 3 seconds during playback to make it to jump ahead or back.


After about 2 weeks of using Navigator, it's not the nightmare I had feared based on reading this thread. It's certainly not perfect and I don't like it as much as Passport yet, but hopefully they will develop and improve it.

Wow. First 'glowing' (as it were) review I've heard!

What code level are you on?

You've had no problems with Series Recordings?

Have you tried starting to watch a show that is recording from the beginning before it is done recording?


It's this last one that drives me crazy, and why I called to complain to TWC about the 'lack of DVR functionality on my DVR'.

If you have a newer code level that is functioning better, that is encouraging news. (I'm on 2.4.5_4)

I wouldn't call it a glowing report. But it does seem better than I had anticipated. I expected something like TVGOS which isn't all that bad just not very polished.

I can't speak to series recording yet. We'll see over the next few weeks.

I'm having no trouble bouncing around using trick play features with material that is being recorded. Either when accessing the recording by going directly to the channel or by getting to it using the List button. So far so good.

Based on what I see in the diagnostic screen it is running 2.4.5.4 (2007/08/29 date). So nothing special there.

I'm in Satch Man territory. SE wisconsin. No gas guage feature with what is running here best I can tell.

Like I said I'll know more in a few weeks.

edit - correction it looks like there is a gas guage feature.

The 15 minute skip feature is there. Hold down the FF or RW button for about 3 seconds during playback to make it to jump ahead or back.


After about 2 weeks of using Navigator, it's not the nightmare I had feared based on reading this thread. It's certainly not perfect and I don't like it as much as Passport yet, but hopefully they will develop and improve it.

It works!! Thanks. Some of the stuff as it relates to reviews may be because all the tricks like this have not been figured out yet.

Navigator week 2:
Had a chance to watch "series" recorded shows last night for the first time. All episodes were recorded as specified, no issues. I agree with other posters that I've learned to live with it. There are some features that are better (HD Now Program Finder).

I really need to solve the audio drop outs though, very annoying. I'm wondering if going to optical connection to my receiver will fix it.

Anyone using Navigator HDC box with HDMI or Optical output? Hows the audio?

Mine did record the first few shows in a series before I started to get the odd errors, like "tuner not available" or "recording cancelled."

Ted

I am looking into satellite myself with the impending doom of Navigator at the doorstep. The downside is that to get a level of service on par with what I am currently getting from TWC is significantly more expensive. Dish wants an extra $20 a month to get most of what I get free with Time Warner and the start up and subsequent monthly cost of DirecTV will be more at least $10 more. And that's without the additional outlet fees! I am still willing to give Navigator a try, but right now see nothing wrong with the SARA based software. I have had maybe one missed recording since I got DVR service. In fact, my only gripes remain the ugly GUI, useless search, and lack of guide customization (IE: adding and deleting channels from the guide, etc.) You can be sure that if Navigator comes with all it's current issues then I will be very vocal about it here. I might even do a website similar to our UticaHDTV.com site to bring attention to the problem!

I guess it just depends on where you live and what content you order. I am paying less with E* than I would be if I had stayed with TWC, and I am getting more HD and a better DVR. I do not have RR. I have 3 Mb DSL from Verizon which is also more reliable than RR has been for me recently, but only costs $38 per month.

Ted

Biggest problem I have is that cable TV is getting down right cheap. I pay ~ $100 a month for digital cable, high speed internet and unlimited local and long distance telephone service. All in after service content upgrades, STB rental for additional boxes and taxes I'm at ~ $150 a month. If I went with three different providers for the same services it could cost well over $200 a month.

I can remember not too long ago when my telephone alone was running over $200 a month. My last telephone company bill averaged $60 a month for unlimited local and LD. When I went with the TWC bundled package my telephone bill went away with no increase in price from what I was paying TWC because of how they bundle services. I lost a $60 a month telephone bill. No contract month to month commitment with TWC and guaranteed for two years. Since I made the change I believe TWC has offered even better deals.

Not complaining here. They've got me in a box but the price is right.

Have you tried starting to watch a show that is recording from the beginning before it is done recording?


It's this last one that drives me crazy, and why I called to complain to TWC about the 'lack of DVR functionality on my DVR'.



Yes I see what you mean. But I think I figured out a very simple work around. I was able to duplicate some inconsistent behavior when playing back something that is being recorded but was able to get the box to perform without a problem.

Post what happens when you try to do this and I'll test it on my box.

edit - now I'm convinced this is not a problem. I can't seem to duplicate the inconsistent behavior anymore. But I did see some freezing. Perhaps it is because I'm not doing what ever I was doing and now have figured out how this thing approaches how to do this with no problems - the right way.

That is wonderful that we are finally getting some positive reports on Navigator! Hopefully, persistence in contacting the supervisors and higher ups will payoff and TWC should have a reasonably stable product by the first quarter of 2008 when the national rollout downloads APPEAR to be planned.

However, this still does not deter from the fact that this product WAS without question rolled out much too quickly before major bugs were out of the system, The recording issues must be at or damn close to 100% reliable for users with DVR service. Anything else is unacceptable. An idea that I would recommend is that if you are planning to record something of great value to you, use a back up method (VCR or DVD burner) in addition to Navigator's DVR just to be safe that you have a copy that works. It does sound like Series Recordings are the biggest Navigator bug at maybe only 75% reliable on their best days when they should be at or near 100%.

When you say you can't record, do you mean that the it looks like everything is set to record (i.e The record light goes on in the SA 8300 LED display, the List command indicates that a show records) but it does not? Or do the record indicators like the indicator light and List commands not show that something is recording?

So right now the biggest problems for most Navigator users are:

1. Issues with series recording

2. HD channel pixiation

3. Audio dropouts

As far as the long boot up time, I would guess that this is an unknown variable in the Navigator upgrade. Is this because of:

1.) The added features of Navigator causing the slower boot up? OR

2.) A bug that hasn't been solved yet?

The tech guy that I had talked to said the graphics were stripped down some to make way for more features. Updates are still being done to Navigator. I understand that new services will allow things like on-line polling for products and shows, Interactive games on your TV, and some other little bells and whistles that I don't know about yet.

However, I think most are in agreement that TWC needs to get the Navigator software working well first.

Jack

Is the amount of noise made by the boxes / power draw any different? I have a 8300HD with Passport with a hard drive that won't turn off (and sometimes goes into 30-second periods of making noises loud enough to wake me up).

The box also uses a constant 46 w or so when the drive is on, regardless of what it's doing.

Here's an average boot up sequence for me. The average is abot 4:55 from the point of plugging it in.

60 seconds to get to the OCAP SA screen. The first visable screen

90 more seconds to get to the Mystro screen - the count down screen.

A bit less than 2.5 minutes more to complete the boot process.

On average 5 or so seconds less than 5 minutes.

I can provide some educated opinions on boot time and general performance problems with the new Navigator boxes.

These new Navigator boxes are based on OCAP. "OCAP is the Java-based software/middleware portion of the OpenCable initiative." (from Wiki)

If its like every other Java infrastructure I'm familiar with (and it should be) basically what you've got is a PC like device with firmware, devices and some type of OS (will vary by box vendor). OCAP is software that sits on top of all of that and acts as an intermediary between the application (Navigator) and the box itself. The applications sit on top of the pyramid. Companies use Java mainly to provide portability since they can write one application and distribute it to any number of different hardware platforms and only the Java (OCAP) layer will change to suit the box (Write once, run anywhere). I may have specific details wrong but you get the general picture.

In theory its great, in reality performance problems on Java systems are almost cliche. Java is very CPU intensive in general. If it runs the pattern I'm familiar with, they'll fix functionality and "really bad actor" performance problems first, then the other performance problems will be fixed as incremental improvements as they tweak the solution. Its possible they've still got debug code or logging turned on which can slow a software solution down...if so they may decide to turn that off at some point when the solution is stable. Boot times are slow because they have to initialize all that software and connect with the head-office and the boxes probably have very minimal RAM and CPU due to cost factors. (Imagine booting a really old PC into Windows, connecting to the internet, starting IE, starting application, etc)

If they have any kind of normal release process, these releases are prepared many months in advance and get released in groups of fixes..probably to test markets first then into general distribution. Sometimes fixes break something else and they have to stop distribution and "fix the fix".

The one thing TWC has going for it are deep pockets and big customer base. Its not inconceivable that they could polish this up as a serious alternative to Tivo, they just have to devote the capital (human and financial) to get it done.

All of this is conjecture on my part but I'm in the software business so I thought I'd throw it out there for those who aren't familiar with how software development works.

Is the amount of noise made by the boxes / power draw any different? I have a 8300HD with Passport with a hard drive that won't turn off (and sometimes goes into 30-second periods of making noises loud enough to wake me up).

The box also uses a constant 46 w or so when the drive is on, regardless of what it's doing.

Passport buffers two tuners 24/7. My Passport box has been doing this for years now. Some complain about the noise especially in a bedroom for example.

The loud noise you describe is not something I've heard. It might be the signs of the HDD coming to the end of its life. Mechanical failure.

In theory its great, in reality performance problems on Java systems are almost cliche. Java is very CPU intensive in general................Boot times are slow because they have to initialize all that software and connect with the head-office and the boxes probably have very minimal RAM and CPU due to cost factors. (Imagine booting a really old PC into Windows, connecting to the internet, starting IE, starting application, etc)Good summary. From what I have seen, you are pretty close. The RAM issue is particularly critical. The newest CableCard SA boxes do have more applications RAM than the old ones (SA8000HD: 32MB; SA8300HD: 64MB; SA8300HDC: 128MB). Thus TW has limited the Roll-Out of Navigator to only the HDC boxes in many areas (plus, the version of Passport that they licensed would not handle the CableCards). The real problem is forcing Navigator onto the older boxes, as they have done in Lincoln and a couple of other areas. That may help explain why some folks have major problems with Navigator (with legacy boxes) and others have less (with CableCard boxes).

I am on sara 1.89.17.1 in Greensboro NC.I have friends in Havelock near the coast who have had Navigator a couple of months. They report aside from being slow it has been a stable platform for them.The husband who is very picky about electronic gadgets gave it a thumbs up.This from him is high praise.Maybe it is getting better.

...

So right now the biggest problems for most Navigator users are:

1. Issues with series recording

2. HD channel pixiation

3. Audio dropouts

...

Jack

This is subjective, based on what problems you encountered, and also what bothers you more. If I had a say in it, this is what I would fix, in order of priority:

1. Skips recording (series or individual) randomly ("channel not available" bug). That's the unforgivable one. Seems to be a common problem; for some people, reboot clears it for a couple of weeks, for others nothing but replacing box helps.

2. No 30-second skip. This is very handy for skipping commercials, but even handier when watching footbal, to skip the boring stuff between the end of one play and the beginning of the next. They'll likely never do it.

3. Flaky when watching the show while it is being recorded, especially if recording two shows at the same time. Can be quite annoying.

4. Can not use instant replay while the show is paused, must hit play first. Why?

There are many more, but I'm trying to keep the list short.

I haven't encountered channel pixilation at all, after switching to an amplified splitter; it was really terrible before that (on SD channels as well), even though my TV tuner would have no problems with the same signal; I had TWC tech come and he immediately replaced the splitter with an amplified one and the video was excellent after that.
Audio dropouts I've encountered only once (i.e. watching one show), and they were more like hickups - skipped a half second every few minutes. If this was more pronounced, I'd have it at #2 on the list, but so far it was not an issue for me (DVR is connected with optical cable to my receiver).

Boot time does not bother me - the box is always on, even if it is not displaying anything when you turn it "off", so you never have to wait for it to boot (unless you are purposly rebooting it or the machine decides it is time to reboot out of the blue, which did happen to me once with the box that had the "channel not available" issue).

Good summary. From what I have seen, you are pretty close. The RAM issue is particularly critical. The newest CableCard SA boxes do have more applications RAM than the old ones (SA8000HD: 32MB; SA8300HD: 64MB; SA8300HDC: 128MB). Thus TW has limited the Roll-Out of Navigator to only the HDC boxes in many areas (plus, the version of Passport that they licensed would not handle the CableCards). The real problem is forcing Navigator onto the older boxes, as they have done in Lincoln and a couple of other areas. That may help explain why some folks have major problems with Navigator (with legacy boxes) and others have less (with CableCard boxes).

I had read this in other posts. One of the reasons I wanted to test it before it was pushed to my existing SA8300HD. The HDC that I am testing is very crisp and fast when browsing the guide etc. I think the 128MB version is the only way to go if someone is interested in checking out Navigator.

Is the amount of noise made by the boxes / power draw any different? I have a 8300HD with Passport with a hard drive that won't turn off (and sometimes goes into 30-second periods of making noises loud enough to wake me up).

The box also uses a constant 46 w or so when the drive is on, regardless of what it's doing.
My Passport 8300HD does have an option to power off the HD at turn off. It has got me a couple times where on the 8300 that I had before I would leave the machine on a channel to buffer if I did not get to the TV in time. I have done that a couple times with the 8300HD and then turned it off without thinking and didn't get a buffer.

Also, some have mentioned leaving on a music or VOD channel (need to set both tuners). Since these channels do not buffer, the drive does not do anything but spin (if you cannot shut off).

Dan

The 15 minute skip feature is there. Hold down the FF or RW button for about 3 seconds during playback to make it to jump ahead or back.

Damn if it isn't...I was trying the Passport method...press FF and then right navigation key, or RW and left nav key.

Thanks for the heads-up on this...I missed that functionality.

Satch Man
Another big complaint is inability to specify output resolution over HDMI (at least to my IN72). It upconverted everything to 1080i on mine, I had to go back to component. this will be an issue on my receiver upgrade in a few months.

Its interesting to note that my HDC box is very slow, there's noticeable lag from button press to action on screen. Now, its light years ahead of Passport on an SA8000HDDVR but not nearly as fast as my last box, the SA 8300HD DVR with Passport. With Passport on 8300 it was perfectly fast.

So I either have a screwed up remote, a different software stack or there are differences in HDC boxes. I'll rule out the remote tonight.

Too bad we can't find a contact at TWC Navigator development team, they could get a lot of free QA test labor from the forums here. Give us a place to track bugs anyway.

I doubt they'd open themselves up like that but it would be nice to get this sped up.

Satch Man
Another big complaint is inability to specify output resolution over HDMI (at least to my IN72). It upconverted everything to 1080i on mine, I had to go back to component. this will be an issue on my receiver upgrade in a few months.



You'll probably have to leave it at a fixed output anyway. I have an IN72 and if I try to let the box use pass-through via HDMI I lose the picture almost everytime the IN72 has to set it up. I believe it's a problem with the HDCP copy protection as under certain circumstances I have seen a message indicating so. When it does work the IN72 still takes about 3-5 seconds to setup the image which is annoying. I noticed the same problem on my fathers Hitachi plasma. I ended up setting it to a fixed output of 1080i and the issues went away. If someone knows how to disable the HDCP on an 8300HD, I'd love to know! Component connections don't use the HDCP, so pass through works. Unfortunately for me component cables at 25 ft. for my ceiling mount would have been a pain. I opted for the one wire solution of HDMI. The copy protection is another anti piracy scheme that screws it up for the majority of us.

SARA software lacks the 15 minute jump ahead but has the fourth fast forward speed that may be just as fast.It seems Navigator is getting the best of Passport and SARA. SARA has had fuel gauge,expanded recording options,caller id.hard drive expansion and many other features the passport people seem to like on Navigator for a few years now.PASSPORT has SARA beat in a decent search engine.Seems copys of the two guides being merged into one.If it could be made stable NAVIGATOR just might give TIVO a run down the road when all planned features are added.

I still have a regular SD TV. (They gave us a HD SA 8300 DVR when we upgraded to an All The Best Package because that is all the guy had on his truck.) Am I correct that because of my SD TV that the Navigator upgrade when the time comes should not affect me with regard to having to change my settings for HD so long as I have an SD set?

On Passport, under Settings and Output resolution I did change the settings per my TV instructions to show only 480i resolution. However, with an SD TV, the issues being talked about for settings should not apply when I am "Updated" to Navigator, correct?

Jack

I really need to solve the audio drop outs though, very annoying. I'm wondering if going to optical connection to my receiver will fix it.

Anyone using Navigator HDC box with HDMI or Optical output? Hows the audio?


Just got a Navigator HDC box and am running digital coax to the receiver. Get audio dropouts when recording two shows and watching one behind the live recording. Other than that, I haven't had any while watching live or on completed recordings of shows.

Another idea for all of us,

When you get your Navigator software update, indicate to us how you got it:

1.) A new box or DVR picked up from a TWC office or installed by a tech OR

2.) Navigator was downloaded to my preexisting box or DVR.

If you got it as a download, did you get an advanced notification and how much of an advance notice did you get?

This way, we can see what relationships exist if any between reported bugs and how you got Navigator.

Jack

I never had audio dropouts on Passport. Also forgot to mention, I have to run the box on "Narrow" setting to get the proper volume level over analog. If I set it to "Normal" or "Wide", the volume is reduced by at least 2/3.

Or am I the last guy in America running a receiver without Digital inputs? :)

(Receiver is my next purchase, waiting on HDMI1.3 dust to settle)

The BIG GRIPE I have with Navigator is the fact it doesn't reliably record your shows...the mysterious "Tuner not available" error is un-forgiveable. So after a week or two of everything going along okay (and me thinking that Navigator isn't so bad...) it suddenly stops recording everything. After several resets, things work normally again...for a week or two, and then no recordings again.

When or if they actually get Navigator to do what they say it is supposed to, it will be an okay DVR...right now it is a beta product.

I'd put it more alpha... beta means every function IS implemented and does work.

Also sounds like a daily reboot may be in order for those who get stuck with this software... the fact that it starts working after a re-boot is almost encouraging!

Good summary. From what I have seen, you are pretty close. The RAM issue is particularly critical. The newest CableCard SA boxes do have more applications RAM than the old ones (SA8000HD: 32MB; SA8300HD: 64MB; SA8300HDC: 128MB). Thus TW has limited the Roll-Out of Navigator to only the HDC boxes in many areas (plus, the version of Passport that they licensed would not handle the CableCards). The real problem is forcing Navigator onto the older boxes, as they have done in Lincoln and a couple of other areas. That may help explain why some folks have major problems with Navigator (with legacy boxes) and others have less (with CableCard boxes).

Oh you hit the nail on the head Dave! From what we have read, it also points to 2 separate versions of Nagivator, one for the HDC boxes and one for the HD boxes. When it hits my HD box, if I still have recordings, I'll watch them all in one sitting, then swap it for a HDC box.

But back to the good summary you quoted, something seems odd to me. I'm not so sure that OCAP is Java code... for all it's descriptions, I came to a tentative conclusion that it was a set of APIs that might be implemented as a kind of Framework (Unix speak), i.e. hooks to the underlying OS (which appears to be a RTOS). The only other "method" I'm familiar with is the daemon (again, I'm mostly acquainted with Unix like OSes as that's what I use).

Yes, I AM making some assumptions here, it could very well be that the Activ RTOS really doesn't act like Unix at all (and THAT is dumb, dumb, dumb IMO). Still, the concept of implemeting an API set in Java does seems too odd...

But back to the good summary you quoted, something seems odd to me. I'm not so sure that OCAP is Java code... for all it's descriptions, I came to a tentative conclusion that it was a set of APIs that might be implemented as a kind of Framework (Unix speak), i.e. hooks to the underlying OS (which appears to be a RTOS).

I agree. We have PowerTV as an OS. Then you have a set of OCAP APIs that are compiled for an OS that provide a standard set of functions(like change channel, start recording etc). THEN on top of that you have Navigator written in JAVA accessing the OCAP API.
xnappo

Just got a Navigator HDC box and am running digital coax to the receiver. Get audio dropouts when recording two shows and watching one behind the live recording. Other than that, I haven't had any while watching live or on completed recordings of shows.

I see "audio dropouts" being listed a Nagivator issue, or as an issue with using an external drive. I have neither and very much HAVE had such issues.

From my experience, I noticed that they increased in a very big way right after they added a HD channel this past summer. Added that channel AFTER they claimed they couldn't because they were out of bandwidth. Over the course of 3-4 months, the situation changed... less drop outs. A forum pal, who knows his stuff, then noticed that recordings were taking up less disk space. Which is a damn good indicator they were lowering the broadcast bit rate (rate shaping). Now I have NOT noticed any appreciable drop in HD quality, but that makes sense IF they did just a tiny bit of "shaping" to every HD channel (all 15 of them that we get).

Interestingly enough, we recently had 4 analogs dropped (and NO new HD added). TONS of bandwidth, enough for a dozen HD channels. AND I also noticed that those same audio drop-outs are almost a thing of the past.

So as I said, I'm just not at all sure that this kind of problem is dues to Nagivator OR using an external HD.

So as I said, I'm just not at all sure that this kind of problem is dues to Nagivator OR using an external HD.

This is especially true of people who had an HD unit and replaced it with an HDC. Maybe the cable cards/Mcards are more sensitive the line quality. I would definitely look at the SNR in the diags pages on channels with dropouts and make sure it is 33+

xnappo

Most of this recent discussion is above my pay grade. But as it relates to HD bit rates it appears to be all over the board. I found this link and was surprised at what passes for HD. Hard drive consumption would definitely be affected depending on what was being recorded based on these bit rate results:

http://www.widemovies.com/dfwbitrate.html

More food for thought,

Could some (certainly not all) of Navigator's problems be attributed to the fact that we do have some very educated, savvy and experienced technology people on this board who like to experiment with audio and video equipment, and the problem is because Navigator is still not ready for prime time, that it's foundation (unstable in most cases) could have some negative consequences if settings are changed?

Compare this to Joe and Jane six pack who just want a picture on the screen, know how to browse the guide, push some buttons to record and that's all they care about. I wonder if the more experienced electronic people who are more willing to "play with fire and take a risk of getting burned," are having more problems with Navigator than those who just want it set up, watch and record, and that's it?

Now I would suggest that because Passport and Sara systems seem to be SOOOO much more stable that people can afford experimentation by the experts who want to go that route. I would suggest that Navigator can't, because if you have a shaky foundational structure that is buggy to begin with, changing such settings could just cause more problems.

A quality product foundation, which it appears Navigator is NOT shouldn't have experimental issues. But Navigator still has proven problems. By experimenting, could regardless of experience levels, users be making more of a mess of a mess?

Jack

If only Time Warner would add Keyword Search to go along with title search in NAVIGATOR.Also can you play from beginning while recording without being kicked out when recording ends?And how do you do it?

More food for thought,

Could some (certainly not all) of Navigator's problems be attributed to the fact that we do have some very educated, savvy and experienced technology people on this board who like to experiment with audio and video equipment, and the problem is because Navigator is still not ready for prime time, that it's foundation (unstable in most cases) could have some negative consequences if settings are changed?

Compare this to Joe and Jane six pack who just want a picture on the screen, know how to browse the guide, push some buttons to record and that's all they care about. I wonder if the more experienced electronic people who are more willing to "play with fire and take a risk of getting burned," are having more problems with Navigator than those who just want it set up, watch and record, and that's it?

Now I would suggest that because Passport and Sara systems seem to be SOOOO much more stable that people can afford experimentation by the experts who want to go that route. I would suggest that Navigator can't, because if you have a shaky foundational structure that is buggy to begin with, changing such settings could just cause more problems.

A quality product foundation, which it appears Navigator is NOT shouldn't have experimental issues. But Navigator still has proven problems. By experimenting, could regardless of experience levels, users be making more of a mess of a mess?

Jack


The fact it can't record reliably is enough to say no it's not ready. Nothing complex about selecting a show to record new or repeat episdodes and then find out it didn't because the channel was not available. I'm on my second box and it does the same as the first. The good news as some other have noted is the trickplay is available with an external sata drive added. So if they could just fix it so it acts like an actual dvr and records a show reliably then I say most folks would be satisfied enough to keep it.

If only Time Warner would add Keyword Search to go along with title search in NAVIGATOR.Also can you play from beginning while recording without being kicked out when recording ends?And how do you do it?

DVRWOODY - I can't seem to duplicate the getting kicked out when a recording ends. Is this sporadic or does it happen all the time? Post a bit more on what is happening and I'll see if i can get mine to do the same thing and if I can figure out how to avoid it.

Sorry Nextoo i'm on sara 1.89.17 and was wondering if Navigator had the play from beginning feature like SARA does.It is one feature I really like and was wondering if NAVIGATOR had it.Sorry if my question was a little confuseing.

xnappo

We're probably both right, its a matter of symantics. Java is an interpreted language and requires a "Java Runtime Environment" to act as a middelware layer between the Java code of the application and the OS/Hardware. Again, I don't have intimate knowledge of OCAP but from what little I've read, the APIs you're talking about very likely are wrapped into or are comprised by the JRE. Hence OCAP implies (or is actually) a middleware between application and hardware.

Fixes can get complex because some problems might require changes at the application layer, middle layer or OS/Hardware layer...or possibly all 3.

In simpler terms..... there's a lot O' CrAP going on:)

Sorry Nextoo i'm on sara 1.89.17 and was wondering if Navigator had the play from beginning feature like SARA does.It is one feature I really like and was wondering if NAVIGATOR had it.Sorry if my question was a little confuseing.

No problem.

Yes you can. You can go into the Show List. Highlight the title that is currently being recorded. One of the options is Play. Which starts the recording at the beginning. If you stop playback you can go back into the Show List. Highlight the title. Now your choices are Resume or Restart. Restart is obvious enough - from the beginning. Resume is where you left off when you stopped playback.

"Java Runtime Environment"

The JRE creates a virtual computer that is supposed to look the same to any program that runs within the JRE, regardless of the underlying hardware. The program can't see outside the JRE, therefore programers can't get tricky & write hardware specific code in order to try to do something fancy that normally can't be done (a virus being a good example). So you have a program running on a fictional computer that is running on an operating system, that is running on the actual hardware. Sometimes the operating system is not there and the JRE has the equivalent of a simple OS imbeded within it. JAVA was orginally created to run on hardware that would be embedded in washing machines, driers, toasters, etc.

The JRE creates a virtual computer that is supposed to look the same to any program that runs within the JRE, regardless of the underlying hardware. The program can't see outside the JRE, therefore programmers can't get tricky & write hardware specific code in order to try to do something fancy that normally can't be done (a virus being a good example). So you have a program running on a fictional computer that is running on an operating system, that is running on the actual hardware. Sometimes the operating system is not there and the JRE has the equivalent of a simple OS embedded within it. JAVA was originally created to run on hardware that would be embedded in washing machines, driers, toasters, etc.

Slightly off topic from Navigator,

But why did a lot of chat software program applications, and their companies (i.e like Yahoo for example) move away from Java RTE? For instance, Yahoo Chat no longer uses a Java Applet, and is now integrated into their new Yahoo Mail Beta and Instant Messaging.

Jack

Tonight I had The Office set as a series record and tried to mess it up by starting to watch it live, then going back into the recorded shows list just a few minutes later and starting from the beginning, then pausing, trick playing, everything.

It was actually rock solid!! No blips, always ended up at the right time, and when I caught back up to live TV, it just kept right on going.

So, for the past week I'm batting 0.750 with this. Maybe it is getting better.

Well just great ... recorded Survivor tonight. Went to watch it but it stopped recording the show at 8:36pm (should run till 9pm). Aaargh.

Bizarelly, the recording light was still lit on the 8300HDC but nothing was showing as being recorded. I wasn't able to stop this phantom recording. I wans't able to back up the buffer either to watch the part of Survivor that had failed to record because I had switched channels to watch something else and thanks to this new fantastic Navigator software it doesn't buffer on both tuners like the Passport software used to.

Finally I rebooted the box and took a nap while it rebooted. Its been a whole three days since I last had to perform a reboot. The box has frozen up with a black screen several times in the past after watching a DVR recording and trying to return to live TV.

I've also had issues recently with shows not appearing in the alphabetical listing even though they appear in the regular guide. Conversely, sometimes when I try to browse the alphabetical listing I'll click on a listed show taht states it has multiple air times to see when it's airing, only to be told that it is not scheduled to be on!

This Navigator OCRAP guide is really pissing me off and with the ongoing launch of dozens of new HD channels on DirecTV it is really giving me itchy feet -- I want to hang on to Time Warner, anticipating that very soon they'll not only fix the Navigator issues but add all kinds of cool new functionality to it while also rolling out SDV and adding dozens of new HD channels. We also use the Free OnDemand content a lot. On the other hand I still am forced to watch crappy-quality analogue versions of CNN, Sci-Fi, etc. because Time Warner isn't even providing digital simulcasts of all of it's channels. When we had Passport, the box would map to the few digital simulcasts that did exist for the Weather Channel, Disney and a few other channel that Time Warner had put on a digital family pack tier but the new Navigator box doesn't even do that.

GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER TIME WARNER!

Am on SARA 1.89.17.1 in Greensboro and all of our channels includeing SCI Fi are digital simulcast here.Really good picture quality.Maybe it's the SARA folk who are getting a great break for now.

A lot of companies are moving away from Java because of other languages and software that allow simpler programming, system architecture and better performance.

rd: Nice summary of JRE.

The thing Windows has (and always has) going for it is beautiful programming environments. Java's sucked...haven't seen the latest for a year or 2 but assume its still way behind. So it takes developers longer, coding is more difficult, yadayada. So you can't even assume what we think are simple fixes are...well..simple. Ok, enough software 101.

They'll eventually fix Navigator I'm sure...whether its before I go to Satellite is another question. Even my wife tonight was saying "What's wrong with cable menu, why's it so slow".

I'm with the guy in ALL CAPS...anyone home at TWC? MCFLY? BUELLER?

'm with the guy in ALL CAPS...anyone home at TWC? MCFLY? BUELLER?

I wish that somehow, someway, we could get several Navigator software development techs to come to this forum where they could get a first hand account of the issues that still persist with Navigator after almost ONE YEAR in the field.

To reference a post way back in this thread that someone made, there are (or were) supposedly 100 techs working on this software in some lab in Colorado. (Which, incidentally is serviced by Comcast, go figure!) Anyway, if any of the TWC programmers would be willing to come out of their caves to see what is going on here, it would be a big help!

The mystery now is this issue with 1-2 weeks of series recordings going ok and than they crap out until a box reboot. Sorry, but people should not have to do box reboots to get series recordings to work properly!

But here is a question on reboots who's answer might help a lot of people regardless if they are Sara, Passport, or Navigator IPG users. What is the difference between a warm reboot and a cold reboot concerning solving problems related to a cable box or DVR?

Jack

Yes you can. You can go into the Show List. Highlight the title that is currently being recorded. One of the options is Play. Which starts the recording at the beginning. If you stop playback you can go back into the Show List. Highlight the title. Now your choices are Resume or Restart. Restart is obvious enough - from the beginning. Resume is where you left off when you stopped playback.

I had an interesting "thing" happen regarding this tonight. We watched Survivor and CSI back-to-back (while recording them) - Survivor got streched out to almost two hours due to family invading my living room. When the program ended, we were given the "Save/Delete" screen - opted to delete it. Nothing strange so far.

When we went to play CSI (still recording), the restart/play options weren't there. Only after doing a channel up/down (switching to live TV) and going back to the DVR menu did I have the restart/play options.

Icky. If the second tuner was busy recording something else, I wouldn't have been able to do the channel up/down trick. I might have been able to hit the "Live" button and rewind to the beginning of CSI, but that's not a very elegant way to handle things.

I'm going to try various combinations of the above and see how dumb the Navigator software really can be...

I had an interesting "thing" happen regarding this tonight. We watched Survivor and CSI back-to-back (while recording them) - Survivor got streched out to almost two hours due to family invading my living room. When the program ended, we were given the "Save/Delete" screen - opted to delete it. Nothing strange so far.

When we went to play CSI (still recording), the restart/play options weren't there. Only after doing a channel up/down (switching to live TV) and going back to the DVR menu did I have the restart/play options.

Icky. If the second tuner was busy recording something else, I wouldn't have been able to do the channel up/down trick. I might have been able to hit the "Live" button and rewind to the beginning of CSI, but that's not a very elegant way to handle things.

I'm going to try various combinations of the above and see how dumb the Navigator software really can be...

Greetings Mnowlin,

Welcome to the TWC Navigator thread! Could you please post your location (city, state) in your profile? This information can help us determine and talk about if or what specific bugs may exist in relation to your city concerning the rollout. While most all locations have had problems with Navigator, the severity of these problems seems to vary from location to location. Thanks!

Jack

Tonight I had The Office set as a series record and tried to mess it up by starting to watch it live, then going back into the recorded shows list just a few minutes later and starting from the beginning, then pausing, trick playing, everything.

It was actually rock solid!! No blips, always ended up at the right time, and when I caught back up to live TV, it just kept right on going.

So, for the past week I'm batting 0.750 with this. Maybe it is getting better.

This has been my experience as well. I've been trying to make it crash but things seem to be working well.

One thing I did notice. For those that are having problems with playback of programs that are being recorded. If you are in playback mode for a program that is being recorded and want to stop playback press the live button on the remote. This seems to be the best way to exit or stop the playback. I have found when doing this both tuners become available again (in the show list menu if you are recording two programs at the same time) and the recording continues without a premature termination.

When in playback mode of a program that is being recorded press the info button. You'll see the banner read playback in the left hand corner. Press the live button. The info banner changes to record. The red rec icon will be shown on the banner and the playback notation goes away. I would recommend pressing the live button to exit the playback mode in this case. You can go back into the show list, highlight the program, and choose resume title and you'll wind up back where you were in the recording when you pressed the live button.

This has shown in my case to be a very stable approach to playing programs that are in the process of being recorded.