This has been my experience as well. I've been trying to make it crash but things seem to be working well.

One thing I did notice. For those that are having problems with playback of programs that are being recorded. If you are in playback mode for a program that is being recorded and want to stop playback press the live button on the remote. This seems to be the best way to exit or stop the playback. I have found when doing this both tuners become available again (in the show list menu if you are recording two programs at the same time) and the recording continues without a premature termination.

When in playback mode of a program that is being recorded press the info button. You'll see the banner read playback in the left hand corner. Press the live button. The info banner changes to record. The red rec icon will be shown on the banner and the playback notation goes away. I would recommend pressing the live button to exit the playback mode in this case. You can go back into the show list, highlight the program, and choose resume title and you'll wind up back where you were in the recording when you pressed the live button.

This has shown in my case to be a very stable approach to playing programs that are in the process of being recorded.

Not flaming you, but the problem with that approach is that it shouldn't be necessary. Try teaching this to your wife, kids, in-laws and see how successful it is (okay, the kids will get it immediately :) ). That is a great work-around suggestion, but shouldn't have to be done, and doesn't have to be done with Passport (and while I don't have SARA, I'm sure it doesn't have to be done with it either).

Hi all,

When I purchased a new 50" HDTV in early September, I went to exchange my current non-HD DVR box (with Passport software) for an HD-DVR. Little did I know that it would have the new Navigator software (of which I knew nothing about until reading this thread) that is riddled with all the bugs that have been mentioned so far. The biggest problems I've had are missed recordings and extremely slow and non-responsive navigation. As my profile indicates, I'm in Cincinnati.

After numerous calls to TWC to explain my displeasure with the system, the Customer Service Representative finally said the only way a supervisor could call me back is if I scheduled a trouble call to have a technician come out. I explained that my issues were not something that could be fixed short of giving me a box with the Passport software, but she insisted sending someone out was necessary.

In any event, the technician arrived last night and despite stating that he had read a log of my case, they had no boxes in stock without the Navigator software short of "I could give you the one I have without it, but it's not an HD box." Once I refused that, he called a supervisor and assured me that the supervisor would give me a call back within a few hours later that night. To no surprise, I never received a call back.


I've made it very clear to them that I'd prefer to stay with TWC because I have RoadRunner through them (which works extremely well) and have been a customer for nearly 15 years, but this new system is unacceptable. Unfortunately, they're not giving me a choice in the matter. I'm on my last straw with them unless they can resolve this situation and soon.

I have to look into some things here and I may get a more clear picture of what's going on in our market after the tech comes out Monday. However, there have been some strange goings on this week. All week between 3 and 5 AM the cable has been dropping out. It goes to a color bar screen. My father reported that his 8300HD on night prompted to go to standby mode (He had the TV on in the background while working on the computer) and then prompted him to hit any button to continue viewing. After he OK'ed the pop up, the unit went through a cycle and gave a message that his hard drive was being upgraded. I asked him if his menu changed and he said it still looks the same. My theory is this: TWC may be rolling out Navigator for employees to test. They did this with the multi-room DVR here, but scrapped it due to too many problems. This would make sense because we are slated for a 1st quarter 2008 rollout. They may be implementing it for testing in anticipation of a January rollout. I will report my findings and intend to quiz the tech who comes out to check my box.

Not flaming you, but the problem with that approach is that it shouldn't be necessary. Try teaching this to your wife, kids, in-laws and see how successful it is (okay, the kids will get it immediately :) ). That is a great work-around suggestion, but shouldn't have to be done, and doesn't have to be done with Passport (and while I don't have SARA, I'm sure it doesn't have to be done with it either).

You are right it should not have to be done, But now I can't for some reason recreate why I came up with it to begin with. I think it was because when I went into the show list I did not see an option to play a recording that was in progress.

It looks like with Navigator if you are recording two programs at the same time and are in the process of playing back one of those and you go into the show list and try to playback the other program (that is being recorded) there is no option to play it. I think that was it. It was a dead end.

In order to playback the other program being recorded it looks like you have to first stop playback on the one you are watching. And what I suggested above does not even work as a work around in this case. Pressing the live button bounces to the other tuner - the other program being recorded. The first one remains in playback mode and the other one in live mode when pressing the "last channel" button.

So the $64,000 question is how do you stop playback mode on one channel when two channels are being recorded without hosing up the machine or the recordings. The live button will not do it in this case.

The answer is to enter the channel number you are watching if it is playback mode. If you are in playback mode on a channel that is being recorded and it is channel 509 for example by pressing 509 on the remote it will kill the playback mode, bring the tuner back to a live state and continue the recording. And then when going into show list both programs that are being recorded are now available for playback. Both now have the playback option.

Not very good for the in-laws but it seems to work for me. Not an intuitive solution by any means. But it is much easier than it reads.

I have to look into some things here and I may get a more clear picture of what's going on in our market after the tech comes out Monday. However, there have been some strange goings on this week. All week between 3 and 5 AM the cable has been dropping out. It goes to a color bar screen. My father reported that his 8300HD on night prompted to go to standby mode (He had the TV on in the background while working on the computer) and then prompted him to hit any button to continue viewing. After he OK'ed the pop up, the unit went through a cycle and gave a message that his hard drive was being upgraded. I asked him if his menu changed and he said it still looks the same. My theory is this: TWC may be rolling out Navigator for employees to test. They did this with the multi-room DVR here, but scrapped it due to too many problems. This would make sense because we are slated for a 1st quarter 2008 rollout. They may be implementing it for testing in anticipation of a January rollout. I will report my findings and intend to quiz the tech who comes out to check my box.

Thanks Ben,

Yes it sounds like perhaps a test of the head-end to prepare for Navigator. Does your father work for TWC? If so, this would REALLY make sense. But it sounds logical just the same. Everyone should be encouraged to question their techs about Navigator, ESPECIALLY the continued series recording problems. Maybe we will get a tech that knows what they are talking about!

I am optimistic that they are out there! LOL! We just have to look a little longer and a little harder to find them!

Jack

This is especially true of people who had an HD unit and replaced it with an HDC. Maybe the cable cards/Mcards are more sensitive the line quality. I would definitely look at the SNR in the diags pages on channels with dropouts and make sure it is 33+

xnappo

Good point, but I think I learned about that one from... you. Every time I've checked S/N I get 34-38. I'm still fairly convinced it's mostly about bandwidth as I went from terrible, god awful right after we got ESPN2 HD, have seen it diminish over time, have evidence they are doing more rate shaping AND have seen those dropouts virtually disappeared when the last 4 analogs were dropped.

xnappo

We're probably both right, its a matter of symantics. Java is an interpreted language and requires a "Java Runtime Environment" to act as a middelware layer between the Java code of the application and the OS/Hardware. Again, I don't have intimate knowledge of OCAP but from what little I've read, the APIs you're talking about very likely are wrapped into or are comprised by the JRE. Hence OCAP implies (or is actually) a middleware between application and hardware.

Fixes can get complex because some problems might require changes at the application layer, middle layer or OS/Hardware layer...or possibly all 3.

In simpler terms..... there's a lot O' CrAP going on:)

Wasn't it I you are responding to? I expressed skepticism about OCAP being a Java application. Java is more about abstraction, there are VERY different JREs depending on platform. OCAP is very much a set of APIs that I still have doubts are implemented as a Java application, that makes no sense to me. As APis, they would hook directly to the hardware, rather than needing an abstraction.

Still, I'm NOT a programmer so I'm going by what I know about software development.

Slightly off topic from Navigator,

But why did a lot of chat software program applications, and their companies (i.e like Yahoo for example) move away from Java RTE? For instance, Yahoo Chat no longer uses a Java Applet, and is now integrated into their new Yahoo Mail Beta and Instant Messaging.

Jack

Not sure about Yahoo or any specific situation, but generally it's about a programmers ability to add in some assembler routines. They have NO access to the JRE so they are stuck on the high level. Writing to the OS/hardware allows them to add specific routines that can run far faster than compiled code. Something you CAN do in most high level languages (the C variants among others) which you can NOT do in Java.

Besides, a good pal always tells me assembly is the ONLY code to work in; partly because only REAL programmers do assembly.

BTW, sorry for wandering off topic, but it doesn't hurt to have folks exposed to this kind of stuff.

I wish that somehow, someway, we could get several Navigator software development techs to come to this forum where they could get a first hand account of the issues that still persist with Navigator after almost ONE YEAR in the field.

To reference a post way back in this thread that someone made, there are (or were) supposedly 100 techs working on this software in some lab in Colorado. (Which, incidentally is serviced by Comcast, go figure!) Anyway, if any of the TWC programmers would be willing to come out of their caves to see what is going on here, it would be a big help!

Actually, it's only one guy. He DOES live in a cave though. BUT he doesn't speak English and can't read, so being around here wouldn't work.

Oh, and there's just NO Internet connection in the mountains of Afganistan, where he lives with his 3 goats. But he DOES spell his first name with a U, Usama Bin Nagivator.

Question-I am on SARA 1.89.17.1 and have a 8300hd and 8300sd.Has anyone had experience with NAVIGATOR on the 8300sd? 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

Not sure about Yahoo or any specific situation, but generally it's about a programmers ability to add in some assembler routines. They have NO access to the JRE so they are stuck on the high level. Writing to the OS/hardware allows them to add specific routines that can run far faster than compiled code. Something you CAN do in most high level languages (the C variants among others) which you can NOT do in Java.

Besides, a good pal always tells me assembly is the ONLY code to work in; partly because only REAL programmers do assembly.

BTW, sorry for wandering off topic, but it doesn't hurt to have folks exposed to this kind of stuff.

AMEN!

Yes it sounds like perhaps a test of the head-end to prepare for Navigator. Does your father work for TWC? If so, this would REALLY make sense. But it sounds logical just the same. Everyone should be encouraged to question their techs about Navigator, ESPECIALLY the continued series recording problems. Maybe we will get a tech that knows what they are talking about!

I am optimistic that they are out there! LOL! We just have to look a little longer and a little harder to find them!


If they don't know by now, then they never will. TWC are already aware of this forum and in particular what users want to see in Navigator.

This thread was startup with the sole purpose of telling TWC exactly that before it devolved into random cable comments:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=733414

Riverside_Guy

http://java.sun.com/products/specforocap/

Buried within that download is explanation of the "The JavaTM Virtual Machine Specification". This is exactly the same type of component necessary to install on a Windows based machine that wants to run a Java coded application (not to be confused with JavaScript).

Additionally, the Java logo is displayed on bootup of an OCAP box if you watch closely.

The programmers have no idea how much free help they'd get if they just asked. TWC could run beta test program and I'm sure get lots of qualified testers...I mean we're watching anyway right?

TWC? Anyone monitoring these threads?

After numerous calls to TWC to explain my displeasure with the system, the Customer Service Representative finally said the only way a supervisor could call me back is if I scheduled a trouble call to have a technician come out. I explained that my issues were not something that could be fixed short of giving me a box with the Passport software, but she insisted sending someone out was necessary.Many times problems are caused with signal level problems. It appears that the first thing that they want to do is to get on site and make sure those are not the real cause of problems.

In any event, the technician arrived last night and despite stating that he had read a log of my case, they had no boxes in stock without the Navigator software short of "I could give you the one I have without it, but it's not an HD box." I thought I would again give some background to help folks here understand the situation:

The FCC passed regulations that essentially said that effective 7/1/07 that cable companies could not deploy NEW cable boxes that did not use Cable Cards.

The cable box software (SARA, Passport or Navigator) has to be changed for these Cable Card boxes.

TWC doesn't want to pay Aptiv for these changes to Passport software because they are attempting to move Passport systems to their own propriatory software (Navigator). As a result, they are using Navigator for CableCard boxes on Passport systems. This means that on their Passport systems the only NEW boxes that they have need to use Navigator.

Cable is allowed to "recycle" old (previously deployed and returned) cable boxes that don't have CableCard (like the SA8300HD or the SA8300). Because of the demand for HD boxes there are not many of these old boxes around - but lots of the SD boxes, as you have found.

Of course, TW made a serious mistake deciding not to get updated Passport software for these new boxes. But that was a corporate decision, and that decision seriously limits what the local division can do for you.

But making serious noise to TW is just what is needed to make them wake up: (though TW does demonstrate an amazing ability to ignore major problems).

I hope this helps clarify why your TW system is acting like they do

Many times problems are caused with signal level problems. It appears that the first thing that they want to do is to get on site and make sure those are not the real cause of problems.

I thought I would again give some background to help folks here understand the situation:

The FCC passed regulations that essentially said that effective 7/1/07 that cable companies could not deploy NEW cable boxes that did not use Cable Cards.

The cable box software (SARA, Passport or Navigator) has to be changed for these Cable Card boxes.

TWC doesn't want to pay Aptiv for these changes to Passport software because they are attempting to move Passport systems to their own propriatory software (Navigator). As a result, they are using Navigator for CableCard boxes on Passport systems. This means that on their Passport systems the only NEW boxes that they have need to use Navigator.

Cable is allowed to "recycle" old (previously deployed and returned) cable boxes that don't have CableCard (like the SA8300HD or the SA8300). Because of the demand for HD boxes there are not many of these old boxes around - but lots of the SD boxes, as you have found.

Of course, TW made a serious mistake deciding not to get updated Passport software for these new boxes. But that was a corporate decision, and that decision seriously limits what the local division can do for you.

But making serious noise to TW is just what is needed to make them wake up: (though TW does demonstrate an amazing ability to ignore major problems).

I hope this helps clarify why your TW system is acting like they do
Thanks, much appreciated. Of course it doesn't solve my current predicament, but at least it gives me some background other than 'The FCC made us switch to this.'

Slightly off topic from Navigator,

But why did a lot of chat software program applications, and their companies (i.e like Yahoo for example) move away from Java RTE? For instance, Yahoo Chat no longer uses a Java Applet, and is now integrated into their new Yahoo Mail Beta and Instant Messaging.

Jack
Before the internet bubble burst everybody thought the internet was going to take over the world, they also thought everyone was going to rewrite all their apps in JAVA to run inside a Web Browser. Later they discovered how expensive it would be to rewrite and also found that JAVA wasn't the answer to all programing problems. Run-Time performance being a big issue. Also Microsoft had a "falling out" with Sun over Java, and stopped shipping support for it in Windows. With all the virsus's floating arouind people are scarred to install anything on the computer or can't figure out how to do it. A lot of solftware developers have move away from JAVA because of the above

But the internet has in fact taken over the world.

Riverside_Guy

http://java.sun.com/products/specforocap/

Buried within that download is explanation of the "The JavaTM Virtual Machine Specification". This is exactly the same type of component necessary to install on a Windows based machine that wants to run a Java coded application (not to be confused with JavaScript).

Additionally, the Java logo is displayed on bootup of an OCAP box if you watch closely.

The programmers have no idea how much free help they'd get if they just asked. TWC could run beta test program and I'm sure get lots of qualified testers...I mean we're watching anyway right?

TWC? Anyone monitoring these threads?

Oh I know what Java is and isn't... what I was commenting on was that I doubted it was used as an implementation of the framework that needs to hook to the underlying RTOS. My guess would be that it's actual involvement was in having a base for Java apps that ARE OCAP.

In other words, the APIs are essentially bound to the OS. To take advantage of them one needs some high level applications and it may be that Java apps will be used. THAT makes a bit of sense on that it can be that such apps don't really need the kind of performance a computer application may need.

The only reason I can see for SARA to still be in use over NAVIGATOR is that 75% of TWC subs are SARA thus it costs less than PASSPORT.NAVIGATOR had more bugs than expected and TWC was caught off guard without a plan B.SARA does almost everythng NAVIGATOR can do and better.SARA is a rock solid stable guide with most(NO not the search engine)features that PASSPORT has.If you think TWC caught flack with PASSPORT users,well SARA better be ready when it hits them.That is why I hear a new version of NAVIGATOR is being prepped for SARA users for early next year.Fingers crossed it is comeing. SARA 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

Hi all, I hope you don't mind a decidedly low tech post in this forum, I'd like to' relate my recent experiences with Navigator in the (admittedly small) hope that someone from Time Warner is checking in on this forum now and again. Anyway, I recently purchased an HDTV, had no intention of switching from VCRs to DVRs as I never know what room I'm going to watch a show in, and discovered to my horror that, unlike Passport, the new Navigator guide that came on the HD cable boxes had no "VCR Timer" programming option, even if the box was not a DVR, so the cable box could not be programmed to turn on, autotune to a channel, and turn off again at the end of the channel. I thought about shelling out the extra $20 a month for DVRs in both rooms (which I'm sure is where Time Warner wanted my mind to go after this "revolutin' development"), but in addition to losing some flexibility (I'm a really heavy time shifter) I had noticed that these boxes were BUGGY. I originally received an HD DVR by mistake and twice stuff I ordered off On Demand just froze up. As for the HD box without the DVR, it had an annoying tendency to go to a black screen for no reason, and had to be rebooted a couple of times before ordering on demand. Anyway, after a month of this I was pathetically relieved to go back to my old SD Motorola box with Passport in it, and I'm hoping these boxes are too old tech to take an upgrade by upload to Navigator. Anyone know who to write to at Time Warner to beg them to include the VCR Timer function in Navigator?

As of last night, my 8300HDC with Navigator can't seem to do basic buffering, pausing or rewinding on several, including our basic local 24hr newschannel. Wrote it off when it happened last night since I had a recording going at the same time (not that that should matter), but this morning same thing...

But when I went to another random local channel, it was buffering just fine.

Aaaargh!

As of last night, my 8300HDC with Navigator can't seem to do basic buffering, pausing or rewinding on several, including our basic local 24hr newschannel. Wrote it off when it happened last night since I had a recording going at the same time (not that that should matter), but this morning same thing...

But when I went to another random local channel, it was buffering just fine.

Aaaargh!

Not sure about the buffering issues, but I know that regardless of the software (i.e Passport, Sara, or Navigator) you can not record on a channel that is designated "All Day" in the program guide. Other restrictions are that you can not record Music Choice Channels on your DVR for copyright reasons, you also can not record Video on Demand Movies. (Generally channel 1000 and above.) You can record regular PPV movies and events from an In-Demand channel with a set start and stop time for the movie or event. Anything from the IPG should be recordable so long as it has a set start and stop time except for the examples illustrated above.

Hope that helps!

Jack

I talked with a Time Warner supervisor about the Channel not available issue with Navigator. He was very friendly and did know about it. He said they are working on a fix and it should be available within the next two weeks. In the meantime, he said what might help is to turn on the box , then your tv and then in reverse order when turning off. Something about this they think it causing the issues. I really don't know if this will do anything at all, but figured I would pass it on.

I talked with a Time Warner supervisor about the Channel not available issue with Navigator. He was very friendly and did know about it. He said they are working on a fix and it should be available within the next two weeks. In the meantime, he said what might help is to turn on the box , then your tv and then in reverse order when turning off. Something about this they think it causing the issues. I really don't know if this will do anything at all, but figured I would pass it on.

That's cool that he was willing to help! Time Warner from what I have heard from so many other people needs to work on a bug fix for the problems associated with series recordings.

Jack

Well, TWC strikes again! Incompetent CRS's and techs at the helm! I just waited ALL DAY (8am-9pm) for a tech to come. No one showed up. I'm so pissed right now that I want to cancel all together. I can't stand getting different BS from every CSR I deal with! I ended up going to my local office and exchanging my 8300HD for an 8300HDC just to see if it resolved the issue. It didn't. FYI: there is a newer version of SARA on the HDC as compared to my HD, but no noticeable difference. It performs identical. I will be returning it tomorrow. No Navigator on new boxes for us yet.... but with service like this DirecTV is looking better all the time!

Well, TWC strikes again! Incompetent CRS's and techs at the helm! I just waited ALL DAY (8am-9pm) for a tech to come. No one showed up. I'm so pissed right now that I want to cancel all together. I can't stand getting different BS from every CSR I deal with! I ended up going to my local office and exchanging my 8300HD for an 8300HDC just to see if it resolved the issue. It didn't. FYI: there is a newer version of SARA on the HDC as compared to my HD, but no noticeable difference. It performs identical. I will be returning it tomorrow. No Navigator on new boxes for us yet.... but with service like this DirecTV is looking better all the time!

That sucks Ben!

Call your TWC office and speak to a supervisor and insist on a credit for a missed appointment. Where I live TWC has a policy that for any missed or late service calls, you get a $20 credit on your account. This is BS that you had to go through. Let us know what happens.

Jack

TWC is horrible, and so are the CSR reps. I just posted (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=916833) prematurely but now understand what's going on.

Do they have a fixed scheduled? I scheduled a tech rep to come to my home to at least get credit for the "outage" of no DVR service working. Planning to file a complaint with the FCC and the TWC Executive Customer Relations Team over this.

Any campaigns/petitions to get this fixed? I certainly cannot nor will tolerate this inconsistent service. I need a reasonably reliable solution, I've missed too many shows and TV specials and it's very frustrating. DirecTV is really looking attractive at this point.

TWC is horrible, and so are the CSR reps. I just posted (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=916833) prematurely but now understand what's going on.

Do they have a fixed scheduled? I scheduled a tech rep to come to my home to at least get credit for the "outage" of no DVR service working. Planning to file a complaint with the FCC and the TWC Executive Customer Relations Team over this.

Any campaigns/petitions to get this fixed? I certainly cannot nor will tolerate this inconsistent service. I need a reasonably reliable solution, I've missed too many shows and TV specials and it's very frustrating. DirecTV is really looking attractive at this point.

You might want to also consider, in addition to filing complaints with the FCC and TWC ECR team, contacting your local Better Business Bureau over issues with the erratic performance of the new Navigator software and poor Customer Service if it applies to your local division.

Having said that, I am still on Passport and in my area have been happy with TWC. It sounds like this new Navigator Guide has really changed TWC for the worse.

Jack

HEre's a weird one. My missing HD channel is now back. I still have a bunch of stuff on my 8300HD, but am wondering if I should keep the 8300HDC and turn in the 8300HD? Thoughts anyone? Also, does anyone know if Journeyman was on tonight? If it was my 8300HD missed the recording and gave no reason as to why.It got Prison Break and Heroes, but no Journeyman. Anyone else have a problem?

HEre's a weird one. My missing HD channel is now back. I still have a bunch of stuff on my 8300HD, but am wondering if I should keep the 8300HDC and turn in the 8300HD? Thoughts anyone? Also, does anyone know if Journeyman was on tonight? If it was my 8300HD missed the recording and gave no reason as to why.It got Prison Break and Heroes, but no Journeyman. Anyone else have a problem?


Yeah, Journeyman was on. The POS Navigator actually recorded it. :D

WTF! SARA missed it! I checked out the pilot and it was really slow until the last 20 minutes, but had enough potential to give it a series recording. Now, I don't have it! Hopefully they are going to re-run it. There was no indication as to why it was missed either and the other show scheduled for a 10pm time slot recorded. Twice I've missed recordings and both times have been in the 10pm time slot on this same channel. I'm wondering if it has something to do with bad guide data???

On a side note, I liked this show better when it was called Quantum Leap!

Apologies if this is old news to everyone, but need to vent about the program guide on Navigator:

1) All instances of a new show are shown as new during the first week - so if you set a series recording of "New Episodes Only" for e.g. The War or Entourage or Dexter, you will get countless duplicates - I came home to 10+ hours of the same episode of The War last night. Aargh!

2) The above problem would be less disastrous if it wasn't for the fact that Navigator loves to delete old recordings - given a choice between wiping out a day old recording or using the remaining 50% free disk space, it will kill the recording every time.

3) I probably have the exact show wrong, but last night I saw Seinfeld (or something like that) on a channel like TBS or TNT listed as "New". Which struck me as, er... unlikely?

I spoke to a tech I know. (The same guy who works for TWC and calls the new boxes with Navigator on them OCRAP, instead of OCAP! hahaha) I mentioned the series recording bugs, here is his response:

**************************************************

Needless to say, that is one of the bugs they are working on with the OCRAPs. Not sure about up there. BUT we had a problem with activating new Ocap boxes for over a 24 hour period 2 weeks ago. They were working on some of the bugs. But as far as the series recording problem, it is hit or miss with the boxes. There really is no trick to it, if you know someone that has a box with those problems, just have them call customer service and have them have a service tech come out and swap the box. I know it is a huge pain and the customer will lose what they have already recorded. They beter get it under control shortly though. I wanna keep my job. lol

Anyhow, I better get going. I have to get ready for work and swap some OCAPs. lol Have a good week Jack.

************************************************************ *

Jack

WTF! SARA missed it! I checked out the pilot and it was really slow until the last 20 minutes, but had enough potential to give it a series recording. Now, I don't have it! Hopefully they are going to re-run it. There was no indication as to why it was missed either and the other show scheduled for a 10pm time slot recorded. Twice I've missed recordings and both times have been in the 10pm time slot on this same channel. I'm wondering if it has something to do with bad guide data???

On a side note, I liked this show better when it was called Quantum Leap!

Well, there is always iTunes... Oh, wait! I meant Amazon Unbox. Er...maybe we'll do our own iTunes that will work with some TBD video player. :rolleyes::eek:

Ted

Apologies if this is old news to everyone, but need to vent about the program guide on Navigator:

1) All instances of a new show are shown as new during the first week - so if you set a series recording of "New Episodes Only" for e.g. The War or Entourage or Dexter, you will get countless duplicates - I came home to 10+ hours of the same episode of The War last night. Aargh!



Strange.

I was going to post just the opposite experience then I read your post. In my case using "The War" as an example the New episodes show up and are recorded as they should be. With just one new episode recorded.

I had originally set up the series for new episodes only. Then realized that because of when I installed the Navigator box (last Wednesday I think) that there were episodes that I missed. When I found out that the first episode was going to be shown again for example I changed the series setting to New and Repeat episodes.

Again, when originally set to New only the New episodes were recorded. Now what I have noticed is that Repeat episodes are scheduled but only those that have not been already recorded. If an episode is on the HDD Navigator does not schedule subsequent recordings for the same episode.

I am running a Passport box next to the Navigator box and with Passport all repeat episode are scheduled to be recorded. I have to go in and delete episodes before they record - edit the scheduled recording list.

I was going to post that I prefer the Navigator approach. But it appears different people get different results.

So far my Navigator box is working great. It is the SA8300HDC new out of the box. I must have gotten one of the "good" ones.

A Passport Question:

Does anyone have, or better yet know, what states or cable companies have paid AptivTV (The Passport people) the upgrade licensing fee so that they get the features that Time Warner only wants to be on Navigator? There is at least one division that I believe was talked about in this thread, (not affiliated with TWC) that has update Passport and features like Caller ID on TV. But I can't remember what State or cable company which this is associated.

Jack

Strange.

I was going to post just the opposite experience then I read your post. In my case using "The War" as an example the New episodes show up and are recorded as they should be. With just one new episode recorded.

I had originally set up the series for new episodes only. Then realized that because of when I installed the Navigator box (last Wednesday I think) that there were episodes that I missed. When I found out that the first episode was going to be shown again for example I changed the series setting to New and Repeat episodes.

Again, when originally set to New only the New episodes were recorded. Now what I have noticed is that Repeat episodes are scheduled but only those that have not been already recorded. If an episode is on the HDD Navigator does not schedule subsequent recordings for the same episode.

I am running a Passport box next to the Navigator box and with Passport all repeat episode are scheduled to be recorded. I have to go in and delete episodes before they record - edit the scheduled recording list.

I was going to post that I prefer the Navigator approach. But it appears different people get different results.

So far my Navigator box is working great. It is the SA8300HDC new out of the box. I must have gotten one of the "good" ones.

Hi Nextoo,

Cool that things are going well! Can you please put your location in your profile so that the board can help determine if you got a better version of Navigator in your TWC division or just a "lucky box?" Thanks!

Jack

I'm in your neck of the woods. TWC of SE WI.

Based on what I see in the diagnostic screen it is running 2.4.5.4 (2007/08/29 date). So nothing special there.

I'm in your neck of the woods. TWC of SE WI.

Based on what I see in the diagnostic screen it is running 2.4.5.4 (2007/08/29 date). So nothing special there.

That's the same revision I have here in Brooklyn, NY. I'd say let's compare hardware revisions etc, but with OCAP boxes that should be moot, no?

Were all the repeat broadcasts marked 'new' in your guide? Since my back to back repeat episodes of The War (and the overnight repeats) were all marked "new", you could argue that my Navigator was just following instructions.

I'm inclined to think it's garbage in, garbage out - incorrect program listings lead to incorrect recording behavior?

That's the same revision I have here in Brooklyn, NY. I'd say let's compare hardware revisions etc, but with OCAP boxes that should be moot, no?

Were all the repeat broadcasts marked 'new' in your guide? Since my back to back repeat episodes of The War (and the overnight repeats) were all marked "new", you could argue that my Navigator was just following instructions.

I'm inclined to think it's garbage in, garbage out - incorrect program listings lead to incorrect recording behavior?

Well here is something even more interesting.

I just checked the Navigator guide. Tonight's episode of The War is a new episode. Titled "A World Without War". The new episode is going to be shown twice. Back to back. Both showings are noted as "new" in the guide but my Series Manager has only the first showing of The War scheduled for recording.

No explanation. Sorry. Does your Navigator version number also show a date of August 29th?

edit - this is similiar to what I was mentioning when posting about repeat episodes. In my case Navigator will only record (schedule) a repeat episode once. And if a repeat episode is already on the HDD it won't record (schedule) it at all.

Well here is something even more interesting.

I just checked the Navigator guide. Tonight's episode of The War is a new episode. Titled "A World Without War". The new episode is going to be shown twice. Back to back. Both showings are noted as "new" in the guide but my Series Manager has only the first showing of The War scheduled for recording.

No explanation. Sorry. Does your Navigator version number also show a date of August 29th?

edit - this is similiar to what I was mentioning when posting about repeat episodes. In my case Navigator will only record (schedule) a repeat episode once. And if a repeat episode is already on the HDD it won't record (schedule) it at all.

Save revision, same date...

Funny thing is, when I schedule the series recording and then look at the guide and see what is scheduled to record, it only shows the first instance on mine too...

Maybe I need to reboot. I had some funny duplications going on when I recently cancelled a recording two minutes before it was set to start and then manually pressed record once the show had started. Ended up with two or three unusable recordings of the same thing.

Perhaps. It won't hurt to give the reboot a try. I'll check to see what happens tonight.

Well here is something even more interesting.

I just checked the Navigator guide. Tonight's episode of The War is a new episode. Titled "A World Without War". The new episode is going to be shown twice. Back to back. Both showings are noted as "new" in the guide but my Series Manager has only the first showing of The War scheduled for recording.

No explanation. Sorry. Does your Navigator version number also show a date of August 29th?

edit - this is similiar to what I was mentioning when posting about repeat episodes. In my case Navigator will only record (schedule) a repeat episode once. And if a repeat episode is already on the HDD it won't record (schedule) it at all.

Actually, it appears as though Navigator is extremely smart with that kind of thing, at least in my case. I must be doing something wrong, as it is not even remotely close to being smart with other things - don't get me started with how it deletes shows when it *thinks* it might be running out of space.
Anyway, here's an example:
On Tuesdays, Eureka at 9pm is marked New; at midnight, it is the same episode again, but also marked New. Navigator, set to record only New episodes, was recording 9pm shows, but not midinght shows. Then, the fall season started and I scheduled both House and Unit (both showing Tuesdays at 9pm), so I expected a conflict with Eureka. Instead, Navigator decided to silently drop 9pm recording of Eureka and add the midnight one. When I realized that, I was so surprised I had to pinch myself.

Instead, Navigator decided to silently drop 9pm recording of Eureka and add the midnight one. When I realized that, I was so surprised I had to pinch myself.

I'm going to sprinkle some breadcrumbs through the vents tonight... maybe if we keep the gremlins happy, they do nice things for us?

Wow!!

This is all very interesting and or confusing! (Well, it's the new Navigator so take your pick!) I would say that what we need to find out with regards to the design of the software is how exactly does Navigator define a "new" or fist run show? Can it differentiate between a first run show at 7 pm and a repeat of that first run show at Midnight? It sounds like it can not because we have instances of BOTH shows being classified as "New." when obviously they are not. Is Navigator looking at "New" in terms of content? Or is it looking at "New" in terms of time period? Or is it playing mind games with users and techs alike and nobody knows WTF it's doing!!??? I opt for my third idea.

You know that this could relate to some of the issues associated with series recordings and the over-lapping recording bugs that we've been talking about.

Now here is more food for thought. Some time ago, I was told by Time Warner that the channel guide data for their IPG's in terms of content is controlled by the STATION and fed to their server database. I have seen instances (although rare) where my Passport IPG will give the wrong description of a show, or some other form of incorrect information. I don't know how often the station data for individual cable guides is updated, especially for syndicated episodes that have been on the air for 30 years. For instance, after Bob Barker retired from The Price is Right, my IPG for awhile was classifying summer reruns as NEW episodes, go figure.

If Navigator's episode data is affecting your recordings, maybe do a cold boot. Unplug the box for several minutes and than plug back in and reboot. Sounds like with Navigator that should solve the problem for ummmmm..........three days! Maybe with all the updates to the boxes there might be some data in there that is "old" and needs to be "refreshed." The big pain in the a$$ is that this rebooting as you all know, seems to just be a temporary fix to anything associated with Navigator's problems. That's what sucks.

Jack

Some time ago, I was told by Time Warner that the channel guide data for their IPG's in terms of content is controlled by the STATION and fed to their server database. I don't think that is quite true. I have always understood that there were only two (Tribune & TVGuide) sources of IPG data and they get the new/repeat info from the networks. Of course, local stations do provide some input, but the bulk of data comes from these two sources.

Unfortunately I can't go back into my guide to see how Journeyman was listed. I'd like to see if there was any rhyme or reason as to why it was totally skipped. It is set to record next Monday according to my guide data. I'm mad, but I guess that two missed recordings all year via my SARA software is a good track record compared to the missed recordings people are having with Navigator.

Unfortunately I can't go back into my guide to see how Journeyman was listed. I'd like to see if there was any rhyme or reason as to why it was totally skipped. It is set to record next Monday according to my guide data. I'm mad, but I guess that two missed recordings all year via my SARA software is a good track record compared to the missed recordings people are having with Navigator.I had no problems recording it down the road (in Rochester). It was on Monday at 10PM. I had it set to only record First Run episodes.

I noticed 20 SDV "test" channels that show up when scrolling channels on the Navigator box. The Passport box does not show these channels when surfing past them. The banner pops up and says Test for the first 10 channels and SDV for the last 10 channels. Another reason why I decided to give Navigator an early shot by proactively getting the SA8300HDC box. It is only a matter of time when I'm going to want access to those SDV channels when they populate.

This and of course the return of trick play when having an esata drive.

So far so good. But it has been less than a week.

I had no problems recording it down the road (in Rochester). It was on Monday at 10PM. I had it set to only record First Run episodes.

This happened before with Studio 60. It recorded all season, even through the hiatus, but missed the final episode. I checked for Journeyman in my scheduled list and it has it's placemarker. The only thing I can think of is that somehow it was not flagged as "NEW", so the DVR skipped it. I have it set to record only first run episodes. I guess I'll have to watch it online. The show seems to have some promise.

This happened before with Studio 60. It recorded all season, even through the hiatus, but missed the final episode. I checked for Journeyman in my scheduled list and it has it's placemarker. The only thing I can think of is that somehow it was not flagged as "NEW", so the DVR skipped it. I have it set to record only first run episodes. I guess I'll have to watch it online. The show seems to have some promise.

Was this with SARA or Navigator?

Was this with SARA or Navigator?Well,you have a point: a bit off topic here. But at least Ben & I clearly state what we have and where we are in our profile & signature. What about you? Really, any Navigator "contribution" should be only made by people willing to include that information.:rolleyes:

Well,you have a point: a bit off topic here. But at least Ben & I clearly state what we have and where we are in our profile & signature. What about you? Really, any Navigator "contribution" should be only made by people willing to include that information.:rolleyes:

Been nice knowing you. Have fun. I guess there is a certain comfort in whining in a collective environment. Narcissism in a group setting.

Others may post in multiple forums and may choose to limit their signature to what they choose. Which in some cases may be nothing.

You need to start your own forum so you can set the rules. In this case it is an open forum with no rules.

Ok I hate this box it crashes nearly everyday...

I have TWC, if I get a TiVoHD what will I lose?

In this case it is an open forum with no rules.No "rules" - but you were free to criticize a "bug" that a SARA user in Syracuse had that was similar to bugs Navigator users had, but want to even be so anonymous that you refuse to include your location in your profile.

What is a SARA user in Syracuse doing in a Navigator thread? Criticize? Where?

Ok I hate this box it crashes nearly everyday...

I have TWC, if I get a TiVoHD what will I lose?
I share your frustration. Even my wife who doesn't usually give a stuff about technology or what's on TV now absolutely hates Navigator and Time Warner. She loves News 14 however and as we also rely a lot on the free Kids on Demand programming it would be hard to make the move to DirecTV.

I've contemplated the new TiVoHD but with that you would lose all the OnDemand programming. As Charlotte rolls out Switched Digital Video (SDV) over the next few months to give it the capacity to launch dozens of new HD channels, those channels too would not be viewable on the TiVoHD although a fix may be in the works for this but no guarantee if/when that will happen. Also, any interactive services that Time Warner rolls out in this region (which they plan to do as Navigator is rollled out fully across the region) will not be accessible via the TiVoHD. This would include Caller ID on TV, Fantasy Football Tracker, News/Sports Tickers, StartOver, etc.

Because of these shortfalls with TiVoHD (and any other third-party cablecard based boxes) I'm going to give Time Warner and their OCAP (Oh-Crap) Navigator guide a few more months to sort themselves out.

I truly believe that within the next 6 months Time Warner Charlotte will have rolled out SDV, fixed most of the issues with Navigator, be providing many more HD channels and be a good competitor in the marketplace.

What is a SARA user in Syracuse doing in a Navigator thread? Criticize? Where?I can't speak for the user in Syracuse, but I suspect that we both are interested in the progress (or lack of it) in Navigator. Particularly as TW has indicated that it will be spread to ALL systems. I, for one, am interested in where it is being deployed. Hence my criticism of those posting here as Navigator users, who simply don't extend the courtesy to participants of their location. Surely, indicating if you are in Lincoln, NE or in Manhattan does not detract all that much from your privacy?

BTW: Even us SARA users do have the right to question what it going on with Navigator and to share, what may appear to be, common experiences (which is what Ben did), and others, who have been watching Navigator and other cable issues closely, to make statements clarifying issues which have been raised regarding Navigator, or related cable issues.

gjlp - Tivo has represented the fact that they are working on a "channel resolver" dongle that will make SDV available to Tivo subscribers. This development is in concert with cable providers. When this will be available has not been announced. My guess is that the representation is real. But again the timimg of its release is in question.

gjlp - Tivo has represented the fact that they are working on a "channel resolver" dongle that will make SDV available to Tivo subscribers. This development is in concert with cable providers. When this will be available has not been announced. My guess is that the representation is real. But again the timimg of its release is in question.And there has been no guarantee from TiVo that this will happen. It would be one thing if TiVo guaranteed that this will happen by xx/xx/xxxx (or refund the full purchase price), but quite another to allow such hopes to propagate without loudly issuing appropriate cautions.

I can't speak for the user in Syracuse, but I suspect that we both are interested in the progress (or lack of it) in Navigator. Particularly as TW has indicated that it will be spread to ALL systems. I, for one, am interested in where it is being deployed. Hence my criticism of those posting here as Navigator users, who simply don't extend the courtesy to participants of their location. Surely, indicating if you are in Lincoln, NE or in Manhattan does not detract all that much from your privacy?

Perhaps not as polite as most deciders might insist but it is a matter of public record.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11791786&postcount=1899

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11734082&postcount=1815

Again. What does a missed recording on a SARA box have to add to those of use who are using Navigator?

Are these missed recordings also posted in the tivohd forum?

And there has been no guarantee from TiVo that this will happen. It would be one thing if TiVo guaranteed that this will happen by xx/xx/xxxx (or refund the full purchase price), but quite another to allow such hopes to propagate without loudly issuing appropriate cautions.

My guess is that there is more than meets the eye when one considers what it will take for something like this to work. I was just passing on info contained in the recent FCC filing.

"Under this approach — arrived at through private discussions outside of regulatory compulsion — a small “Tuning Resolver” adapter could be made available to the UDCP consumer. With only firmware modifications to new UDCP products, and a USB 2.0 connection, properly equipped UDCPs could receive programming offered on SDV channels. Many currently deployed UDCPs, including TiVo DVRs, have one or more USB 2.0 connectors and might even be upgradeable with firmware for SDV.

Licensing and testing of this optional feature of a UDCP will be provided under the existing DFAST agreement in a manner similar to that submitted to the FCC by various signators (TiVo, Motorola, Digeo, Solekai, Digital Keystone, and ViXS) for the optional M-CARD interface for UDCPs.68 That is, execution of a DFAST addendum, one-time verification testing, and self-verification thereafter.69"

68 Nov. 13, 2006 joint submission in this docket by CableLabs, TiVo, Motorola, Solekai, Digeo, Digital Keystone and ViXs to implement Multi-stream CableCARDs for UDCPs.
69 Some verification testing is required, but it is likely to be minimal. For SDV to operate properly, the host must operate correctly with the cable headend when an end user has tuned away from a switched channel, or when the channel has remained unchanged with no evidence of user involvement or interaction (i.e., the user leaves the TV on and tuned to the switched channel, but then walks away from the TV for some extended period of time). Here, the host should act in sync with the headend to notify the end user of the pending switch (for example, display “are you still watching?”) before the reclamation of the channel."

Emphisis added. But I guess "minimal" could also be a red haring.

Perhaps not as polite as most deciders might insist but it is a matter of public record.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11791786&postcount=1899

But not included in your profile, so it's visable on every post. And even then, its fairly vague.

I was just passing on info contained in the recent FCC filing.Well, you didn't supply a link to that filing (I am quite familiar with it) and your quotes are taken out of context. But what YOU said was: Tivo has represented the fact that they are working on a "channel resolver" dongleThe document you quoted was not by TiVo , but rather by the NCTA on 8/24 (http://ncta.com/ContentView.aspx?hidenavlink=true&type=lpubtp5&contentId=4346).

But YOU did say that ""Tivo has represented" and my comments took that at face value, assumed* that the statement DID come from TiVo and commented that TiVo should either guarantee that this will happen or loudly issue appropriate cautions.

*But I really should not have trusted a statement from someone who somehow needs to keep his location from being readily known.

But not included in your profile, so it's visable on every post. And even then, its fairly vague.

I'm sure you'll remember. So you have nothing to worry about. :)

Unless for some reason you have decided to worry about this for everybody else.

And if at any time you may not recall. Just ask.

If for some reason you feel compelled to insist on a profile format necessay for posting I suggest you appeal to the forum operators. They have obviously chosen not to make a specific profile format compulsary. Perhaps you can change their minds. Good luck.

In the mean time I may have some things productive to add -as it relates to Navigator. If so I'll post.

Well, you didn't supply a link to that filing (I am quite familiar with it) and your quotes are taken out of context. But what YOU said was: The document you quoted was not by TiVo , but rather by the NCTA on 8/24 (http://ncta.com/ContentView.aspx?hidenavlink=true&type=lpubtp5&contentId=4346).

But YOU did say that ""Tivo has represented" and my comments took that at face value, assumed* that the statement DID come from TiVo and commented that TiVo should either guarantee that this will happen or loudly issue appropriate cautions.

*But I really should not have trusted a statement from someone who somehow needs to keep his location from being readily known.

Yeah you are probably right. Tivo probably has no idea what this dongle thing is. Probably clueless. It is all a rouse by the NCTA in order to trick the FCC. And keep Tivo in the dark in order to slip in SDV without Tivo knowing anything about it. Even though the oral testimony before the FCC stated that this has been in the works for a few months now. (sorry no citation - you're going to have to burn your own calories and look it up yourself)

It's amazing how things like this work. Especially since Tivo has been in bed with Comcast for a couple years now with the Comcast Tivo guide development for SA boxes. And the recent announcement that development will expand to includ porting the Tivo guide to Moto boxes. As stated in both of companies quarterly 10Q's. That's probably a trick too. And the management comments that go along with 10Q's. That's a rouse also. Even though in the eyes of the SEC it means jail time. And the management quarterly results conference calls. They're not being truthful either. Nope. Cox is not working with Tivo on a guide becasue Tivo says it is. Also the management comments that Tivo is aware of the development of the resolver dongle. That's only because somebody has a gun to their heads and they have to say that but they really know nothing about it.

Oh and also because somebody didn't site an NCTA FCC filing and others get their jollies parsing posts in forums. Yup that's what I'm going to put my money on.

Yeah that makes sense. I think I'm going to run with it.

Again. What does a missed recording on a SARA box have to add to those of use who are using Navigator?

Are these missed recordings also posted in the tivohd forum?

You are missing the point of my posting here.

A) I am tracking Navigator progress and deployment because we are slated to have it here by first quarter of the coming year.

B) I clearly stated the reason why the issue related to SARA. It had to do with my switching of an 8300HD for an 8300HDC to resolve a problem. The HDC have been known to be deployed with Navigator already installed upon then. I was merely referencing the fact that the 8300HDC is running a different version of the SARA software than the 8300HD is and informing people who might be interested that the new boxes are being deployed with SARA and not Navigator.

C) The missed recording was a gripe thrown into the discussion and was being compared to the fact that I've only missed two or three scheduled recordings as compared to Navigator users who frequently miss recordings.

I don't see what all the fuss is about. I'm merely participating in the discussion.

BenJF3 - I have no beef with you. But after a while one gets tired of the self proclaimed mother hens that run around these threads thinking they have risen to some sort of pseudo moderator status. Self proclaimed forum police. The Barney Fifes*. Which I believe is what the fuss was about.

It's an open forum. Anybody can post. Go for it. But remember - I know where you live!:eek:

* fulfillment of the citation requirement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barney_Fife

So last night as I'm watching whatever, a message pops up for about .01 seconds that I thought said something like "Recording Cancelled - Disk Full". Hmm... I did have The War set to record - but I don't think my disk is full...

Sure enough - The War does not record, entry in log says "disk full". Meanwhile, the Fuel Gauge tells me disk is 56% full. Aaargh! It does (sort of) explain why my box has been deleting recordings like a banshee... it somehow believes it's run out of space. Or maybe it has, but my gauge is 'broken' (how many hours of HD should we expect to be able to store?).

Tonight comes the reboot - hopefully that will recalibrate the free space measurements. Feeding the gremlins breadcrumbs obviously did not help.

__________________
Navigator 2.4.5.4 on an SA8300HDC

SA8300 boxes only hold about 20 hours of HD (90 hours of SD) on the internal drive. It's only a 160GB and even the newer HDC model is limited to the 160GB drive. You would think they would have had the foresight to use at least a 320GB or preferably a 500GB drive. Then one could add on another 500GB external and have a terabyte of storage. I've decided to return the 8300HD to TWC and keep my 8300HD since I'm not gaining anything and the fall season has already started to run. When Navigator comes along, I may pickup another HDC because I have a feeling the extra RAM will be useful.

heinriph - Bad news. Are you running it with an esata drive or simply the internal?

My experience was that The War recorded as it should. The first of the 2 showings recorded. The second did not. I would definitely go the reboot route.

I have a feeling the extra RAM will be useful.

I think the extra ram is a huge deal. I have the new HDC with the extra ram. I posted previously that my box is quick and very responsive. Others have posted the opposite. My guess is that the sluggish boxes are the older ones with less ram.

heinriph - Bad news. Are you running it with an esata drive or simply the internal?


Just running with the internal... I probably do have close to 20 hrs recorded at this point, so it sounds like the fuel gauge is broken.

Very tempted to get an external, but I'll end up collecting more precious and coveted content, and then - poof! - some bug will wiped everything out. Limited to 20 hrs, the damage is likewise limited.

heinriph - you also posted this yesterday:

2) The above problem would be less disastrous if it wasn't for the fact that Navigator loves to delete old recordings - given a choice between wiping out a day old recording or using the remaining 50% free disk space, it will kill the recording every time.

It really is starting to look like your drive is full. That the gas gauge may not be giving an accurate reading. And that the machine is in fact deleting content because the drive is actually full. If that is the case I bet a reboot would reset the gauge.

I think the extra ram is a huge deal. I have the new HDC with the extra ram. I posted previously that my box is quick and very responsive. Others have posted the opposite. My guess is that the sluggish boxes are the older ones with less ram.

My HDC was not very responsive at all with Navigator, and most other people here have posted similar experiences. You must have a "ringer."

Ted

BenJF3 - I have no beef with you. But after a while one gets tired of the self proclaimed mother hens that run around these threads thinking they have risen to some sort of pseudo moderator status.As I recall, this all started with you complaining about SARA users participating in this thread. But this "tit for tat" is certainly not productive: Back to Navigator.....

My HDC was not very responsive at all with Navigator, and most other people here have posted similar experiences. You must have a "ringer."

Ted

Could be. I posted previously that it looks like I wound up with a "good" one.

Guide navigation in my case is faster than with Passport. With Navigator it goes north to south (channel scrolling in the guide) a lot faster than Passport. With Passport when in the guide and I press the down arrow button in just lumbers through the channels - one at a time. With Navigator if I press the down arrow button it will hyper scroll - page by page or 5 channels at a time when I keep the down arrow depressed.

When using the Navigator guide and I want to move out 4 days for example when I press the 4 button and the right arrow button the time frame pops up with no delay. With Passport when doing the same thing it flashes the "loading data" alert. I've never seen the "loading data" alert when either moving out in the guide by the day or hyper scrolling with Navigator.

Not that any of this is mission critical but I have not seen the spongy performance reported by other users. But the box is new. Perhaps as I load it up with recordings and scheduled recordings the performance will slow.

I'm sure you'll remember. So you have nothing to worry about. :)

Unless for some reason you have decided to worry about this for everybody else.

And if at any time you may not recall. Just ask.

If for some reason you feel compelled to insist on a profile format necessay for posting I suggest you appeal to the forum operators. They have obviously chosen not to make a specific profile format compulsary. Perhaps you can change their minds. Good luck.


Dave has a valid point which is shared by the majority of users here, a good chunk of which are professionals in the industry and have no qualms about telling people where they are. The very nature of this forum is to provide information, a lot of which is location-dependent, especially in the case of Navigator.

You lose nothing from adding your a location to your profile and save everyone else wondering where you are and having to ask in the first place. Nobody should have to ask, if you are willing to take information from AVS users you should be equally willing to providing the same courtesy to other users.

As I recall, this all started with you complaining about SARA users participating in this thread. But this "tit for tat" is certainly not productive: Back to Navigator.....

Actually no. It started when my simple inquiry of:

Was this with SARA or Navigator?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11796181&postcount=1912

Was framed as a criticism:

No "rules" - but you were free to criticize a "bug" that a SARA user in Syracuse had that was similar to bugs Navigator users had, but want to even be so anonymous that you refuse to include your location in your profile.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=11796627&postcount=1916

That sucks Ben!

Call your TWC office and speak to a supervisor and insist on a credit for a missed appointment. Where I live TWC has a policy that for any missed or late service calls, you get a $20 credit on your account. This is BS that you had to go through. Let us know what happens.

Jack

Actually, it should be a free MONTH of cable serice for missing an appontment.

Did you get a confirmation number? You also SHOULD have goten a phone call... for my last appopintment, I got three phone calls!

Well, there is always iTunes... Oh, wait! I meant Amazon Unbox. Er...maybe we'll do our own iTunes that will work with some TBD video player. :rolleyes::eek:

Ted

Speaking of which, I just read that House will no longer be carried on iTunes. That show is a Fox show but is produced by (a unit of) NBC-Uni, so it falls under the NBC thing...

I'm sure you'll remember. So you have nothing to worry about. :)

Unless for some reason you have decided to worry about this for everybody else.

And if at any time you may not recall. Just ask.

If for some reason you feel compelled to insist on a profile format necessay for posting I suggest you appeal to the forum operators. They have obviously chosen not to make a specific profile format compulsary. Perhaps you can change their minds. Good luck.

In the mean time I may have some things productive to add -as it relates to Navigator. If so I'll post.

Indicating cable/satellite service, equipment, software and versions along with location is not a requirement, but a COURTESY to others. Clearly you have adopted an opposite/antagonistic attitude, for which I thank you as I can now ignore you.

"Under this approach — arrived at through private discussions outside of regulatory compulsion — a small “Tuning Resolver” adapter could be made available to the UDCP consumer. With only firmware modifications to new UDCP products, and a USB 2.0 connection, properly equipped UDCPs could receive programming offered on SDV channels. Many currently deployed UDCPs, including TiVo DVRs, have one or more USB 2.0 connectors and might even be upgradeable with firmware for SDV.


I think the most important word here is "could." It shows up twice in this passage. It seems a bit hopeful to me to think that this will ever happen.

Ted

Indicating cable/satellite service, equipment, software and versions along with location is not a requirement, but a COURTESY to others. Clearly you have adopted an opposite/antagonistic attitude, for which I thank you as I can now ignore you.

Sounds like a deal. Agreed. Likewise.

I think the most important word here is "could." It shows up twice in this passage. It seems a bit hopeful to me to think that this will ever happen.

Ted

Could be very true. Here's my original comment:

gjlp - Tivo has represented the fact that they are working on a "channel resolver" dongle that will make SDV available to Tivo subscribers. This development is in concert with cable providers. When this will be available has not been announced. My guess is that the representation is real. But again the timimg of its release is in question.

This was deemed to mean that it's a done deal and will be here by the end of the week. Best case is that they are working on it and its release date is unknown.

I think the most important word here is "could." It shows up twice in this passage. It seems a bit hopeful to me to think that this will ever happen.

TedIt may be useful to understand the context of that passage: The FCC has been long (way too long, BTW) on regulations to FULLY enable consumers to purchase cable Navigation devices (such as TiVos). The original attempts (CableCards) have been a miserable failure, largely due to the lack of cooperation between the cable industry (and their R&D arm, CableLabs).

The recent (7/1/07) "Integration Ban" was just one piece of the overall issue. Many have considered the FCC actions there as a "warning shot" across cable's bow. This addressed "security", but the major issue remained: Interactive operation. Cable had been focused on a new "universal" approach, known lovingly to frequenters here as "OCrAP", and for awhile it seemed that everyone (cable & CEA was buying into it. However, the CEA wanted a "cheaper" approach, because they saw (as folks here are seeing with Navigator {an OCAP application}) that significant resources were required to successfully run OCAP. So in November, they issued a Proposal for a lower cost approach to the issue - an approach that had quite a few elements that cable did not like.

In June, the FCC again asked for comments in another Notice of Proposed Rulemaking. The quote came from an 80 page document filed by cable (NCTA) in late August. The intent of that document was to thwart any action from the FCC that would detract from cable's current direction (implementing OCAP). The particular paragraph we are talking about here (re: TiVo dongle) was, in my view, a "play nice" statment, trying to show the FCC that they really are working with the CE industry to resolve issues. But if you read the entire document, you'll see that most of cable's arguments say that any change in direction proposed by the CEA would detract from cable meeting the goals of Congress and the FCC in achieving (cable's view) of Commercial Availability of Navigation devices. I for one can't but help wonder if this dongle approach is also one of the things that really have a low priority with cable because of their pursuit of OCrAP.

Now, I don't follow the TiVo threads and such, and have no idea of what TiVo had said. But I DO follow FCC actions on several fronts quite closely. When nextoo posted that:Tivo has represented the fact that they are working on a "channel resolver" dongleI took that at face value and thus understood that TiVo had put out the word that this was coming (and I then questioned the value of their statement). They may well have, but the quote that nextoo posted was: 1) not a representation from TiVo and; 2) simply posturing by cable to thwart the CES proposal.

In June, the FCC again asked for comments in another Notice of Proposed Rulemaking. The quote came from an 80 page document filed by cable (NCTA) in late August. The intent of that document was to thwart any action from the FCC that would detract from cable's current direction (implementing OCAP). The particular paragraph we are talking about here (re: TiVo dongle) was, in my view, a "play nice" statement, trying to show the FCC that they really are working with the CE industry to resolve issues. But if you read the entire document, you'll see that most of cable's arguments say that any change in direction proposed by the CEA would detract from cable meeting the goals of Congress and the FCC in achieving (cable's view) of Commercial Availability of Navigation devices. I for one can't but help wonder if this dongle approach is also one of the things that really have a low priority with cable because of their pursuit of OCrAP.

My interpretation was/is that they higher ups at cable want to monopolize the industry with a universal approach to the OCrAP boxes and hardware. (Remember, TWC COULD have chosen to pay Passport the licensing fees for updated versions of their very stable software.) The problem is that in doing so they would have had to do the same thing to the Sara systems as well. So TWC would rather have one system in Navigator, with a 50/50 crap shoot as to its performance that they have total control over how it is programed, rather than paying out licensing fees to Passport and Sara for systems that may have a 90% reliability rate and are accustomed to the public. (Note that no system will EVER be 100% reliable. But Passport and Sara come as close as possible.) TWC sacrificed reliability with the Navigator software to save money.

Jack

My interpretation was/is that they higher ups at cable want to monopolize the industry with a universal approach to the OCrAP boxes and hardware. (Remember, TWC COULD have chosen to pay Passport the licensing fees for updated versions of their very stable software.) The problem is that in doing so they would have had to do the same thing to the Sara systems as well. So TWC would rather have one system in Navigator, with a 50/50 crap shoot as to its performance that they have total control over how it is programed, rather than paying out licensing fees to Passport and Sara for systems that may have a 90% reliability rate and are accustomed to the public. (Note that no system will EVER be 100% reliable. But Passport and Sara come as close as possible.) TWC sacrificed reliability with the Navigator software to save money.

JackWell cable certainly wants to "protect their turf". Some of the CES requests calls for cable to give up a lot of control. Their real concern is in being limited in deploying new technologies & business models. But that also means not going off in several different directions (which CES wants them to do).

RE: OCrAP. I believe that SARA costs them a lot less than Passport. SARA is supplied by SA, who makes their money from the boxes. Aptiv is strictly a software firm and the geneses of Passport was originally to adopt SA boxes to non SA systems. They need to recover expenses through fees, SA does not. The Integration Ban pushed things along a bit, and TW needed to use Navigator in the CC boxes because they didn't want to pay Aptiv. Apparently the costs of the CC compatible is a lot lower because SA makes their $$ from the hardware.

It may be useful to understand the context of that passage: The FCC has been long (way too long, BTW) on regulations to FULLY enable consumers to purchase cable Navigation devices (such as TiVos). The original attempts (CableCards) have been a miserable failure, largely due to the lack of cooperation between the cable industry (and their R&D arm, CableLabs).

The recent (7/1/07) "Integration Ban" was just one piece of the overall issue. Many have considered the FCC actions there as a "warning shot" across cable's bow. This addressed "security", but the major issue remained: Interactive operation. Cable had been focused on a new "universal" approach, known lovingly to frequenters here as "OCrAP", and for awhile it seemed that everyone (cable & CEA was buying into it. However, the CEA wanted a "cheaper" approach, because they saw (as folks here are seeing with Navigator {an OCAP application}) that significant resources were required to successfully run OCAP. So in November, they issued a Proposal for a lower cost approach to the issue - an approach that had quite a few elements that cable did not like.

In June, the FCC again asked for comments in another Notice of Proposed Rulemaking. The quote came from an 80 page document filed by cable (NCTA) in late August. The intent of that document was to thwart any action from the FCC that would detract from cable's current direction (implementing OCAP). The particular paragraph we are talking about here (re: TiVo dongle) was, in my view, a "play nice" statment, trying to show the FCC that they really are working with the CE industry to resolve issues. But if you read the entire document, you'll see that most of cable's arguments say that any change in direction proposed by the CEA would detract from cable meeting the goals of Congress and the FCC in achieving (cable's view) of Commercial Availability of Navigation devices. I for one can't but help wonder if this dongle approach is also one of the things that really have a low priority with cable because of their pursuit of OCrAP.

Now, I don't follow the TiVo threads and such, and have no idea of what TiVo had said. But I DO follow FCC actions on several fronts quite closely. When nextoo posted that:I took that at face value and thus understood that TiVo had put out the word that this was coming (and I then questioned the value of their statement). They may well have, but the quote that nextoo posted was: 1) not a representation from TiVo and; 2) simply posturing by cable to thwart the CES proposal.

All of this over a simple Tivo dongle comment which was meant to be helpful to a poster who posed a concern. And a soft comment at that. Here it is again:

gjlp - Tivo has represented the fact that they are working on a "channel resolver" dongle that will make SDV available to Tivo subscribers. This development is in concert with cable providers. When this will be available has not been announced. My guess is that the representation is real. But again the timing of its release is in question.

Post parsing, citation critiques, historical perspectives filled with top heavy forward looking speculation (which I suppose is now, for some reason, allowed).

What's next - spelling corrections?

Absolutely amazing.

In a Navigator forum. Who cares. I believe most just want their scheduled recordings to work.

I guess all of us little people must be able to pass the self appointed standards police with their self prescribed indulgent form filter requirements.

In any event the term "thread hijacking" has risen to new levels.

Somebody remind me never to post anything about Tivo again.

Now, I don't follow the TiVo threads and such, and have no idea of what TiVo had said. But I DO follow FCC actions on several fronts quite closely. When nextoo posted that:I took that at face value and thus understood that TiVo had put out the word that this was coming (and I then questioned the value of their statement). They may well have, but the quote that nextoo posted was: 1) not a representation from TiVo and; 2) simply posturing by cable to thwart the CES proposal.

How about this. Does this work? Does it pass the test? Is it acceptale to you? It's on the Tivo site so it obviously passed their legal.

http://customersupport.tivo.com/LaunchContent.aspx?CID=cbecf1b9-88de-4b74-82c1-754c3260112a

Probably not. Oh well.

And how does the Tivo comment play into your position that the FCC document is in your words:

2) simply posturing by cable to thwart the CES proposal.

When I read the Tivo statement I come to a different conclusion. From the Tivo site (link posted above - oops almost made a mistake):

Certain cable operators are using switched digital technology to add new niche channels or eliminate duplicate feeds of premium channels.

Currently, switched digital channels are unavailable to TiVo DVRs that use CableCARDs. However, the cable industry is working with TiVo and others to develop a technical fix so that TiVo devices will be able to access these switched digital channels.

Great progress has been made and the National Cable & Telecommunications Association (NCTA) revealed the solution in a filing with the FCC. The agreed-upon solution is a small external adapter, called a tuning resolver, which will attach to the back of the CableCARD device and enable two-way communication with the cable headend so that switched digital channels can be received by TiVo products.

We expect the adapter to be available to consumers before switched digital becomes widely deployed.

For the full text of the FCC filing on August 24, 2007, please click this link. (The information about the proposed tuning resolver solution, including TiVo’s involvement in this solution, is on page 33 of the filing.)

Emphasis added.

The recent (7/1/07) "Integration Ban" was just one piece of the overall issue. Many have considered the FCC actions there as a "warning shot" across cable's bow. This addressed "security", but the major issue remained: Interactive operation. Cable had been focused on a new "universal" approach, known lovingly to frequenters here as "OCrAP", and for awhile it seemed that everyone (cable & CEA was buying into it. However, the CEA wanted a "cheaper" approach, because they saw (as folks here are seeing with Navigator {an OCAP application}) that significant resources were required to successfully run OCAP. So in November, they issued a Proposal for a lower cost approach to the issue - an approach that had quite a few elements that cable did not like.


I it just me or is there a HUGE difference between the OCAP and CE approach here for the end user? I mean with OCAP any device I buy on TWC's system is going to be running crappy Navigator right? OCAP bundles the software with the cable service while the CE guys just want access to the service right? Basically the difference between having internet access and AOL in 1993.

xnappo

With OCAP it is the cableco's guide.

The only thing I can say is that in Greensboro NC we are on SARA 1.89.17.1. It is a rock solid reliable guide with most (not all) Navigator features.If TWC could get Navigator as FAST and as RELIABLE as SARA they would have a winner.Until they do I will keep my SARA until forced to give it up thank you.Have only missed one recording in a year.SARA version of series manager has a LOT of recording options-more than Navigator seems to have.

With OCAP it is the cableco's guide.

We say 'guide' but it isn't really a guide anymore - it is a huge and complex TV recording/viewing application. The whole advantage Tivo has over anything else is the conflict resolution, suggestions, web programming etc. All of this would not be possible with an OCAP device.

I don't see why anyone would buy an OCAP device other than maybe a TV with OCAP - buying an STB would be the same as buying a cable modem.

xnappo

That is a very good point. It is much more than the guide. And I agree with your position. Only the hardware will change.

The only thing I can say is that in Greensboro NC we are on SARA 1.89.17.1. It is a rock solid reliable guide with most (not all) Navigator features.If TWC could get Navigator as FAST and as RELIABLE as SARA they would have a winner.Until they do I will keep my SARA until forced to give it up thank you.Have only missed one recording in a year.SARA version of series manager has a LOT of recording options-more than Navigator seems to have.

Keep the SARA as long as you can then. I stuck my toe in the water by picking up another box so I could check Navigator out. I am obviously very lucky because I have had no real problems - beyond learning curve related ones.

Is Navigator perfect. No way. But I picked up trick play with the esata drive and I'm now on a platform that supports SDV. Passport did neither. With SARA you don't have these problems.

if they could fix the bugs (especially guide speed and recording reliabilty) in navigator then i have to think it would be better than sara.

sara may be reliable but the search feature is horrible.

Well cable certainly wants to "protect their turf". Some of the CES requests calls for cable to give up a lot of control. Their real concern is in being limited in deploying new technologies & business models. But that also means not going off in several different directions (which CES wants them to do).

RE: OCrAP. I believe that SARA costs them a lot less than Passport. SARA is supplied by SA, who makes their money from the boxes. Aptiv is strictly a software firm and the geneses of Passport was originally to adopt SA boxes to non SA systems. They need to recover expenses through fees, SA does not. The Integration Ban pushed things along a bit, and TW needed to use Navigator in the CC boxes because they didn't want to pay Aptiv. Apparently the costs of the CC compatible is a lot lower because SA makes their $$ from the hardware.

Dave,

Out of curiosity, do you know what cable operators have paid for the Aptiv Passport updates? We had a poster who said in this thread if I remember correctly that they had things like Caller ID on TV, but it was different than Navigator? I think it was a Passport box.

Jack

Dave,

Out of curiosity, do you know what cable operators have paid for the Aptiv Passport updates? We had a poster who said in this thread if I remember correctly that they had things like Caller ID on TV, but it was different than Navigator? I think it was a Passport box.

JackAccording to Aptiv's website COX is one, don't know about Comcast. I believe that everyone using Passport except TW is using the new version of Passport with the new CableCard equipped cable card boxes.

I still can't figure out why they (Aptiv, SA,TWC) keep they PITA buttons of A,B,C! Go to a standard format of menu and select like everyone else! They must be in cahootes with Logitech or are making big bucks of "remote tentals". They could make it so much more functional by standardizing the system with other TV's, VCR's, DVD's, etc.

I agree. The ABC thing is a joke. Makes it tough to find a unified remote.

But after looking around I did find a $20 learning remote that has ABCD buttons that works great and it is an 8 device unified remote. You can program the letter keys to do what the ABC buttons to on the TWC remote. And it's cheap for those that don't want to stick a lot of dough into a remote.

It is the Sony RM-VL600.

How about this. Does this work? Does it pass the test? Is it acceptale to you? It's on the Tivo site so it obviously passed their legal.

http://customersupport.tivo.com/LaunchContent.aspx?CID=cbecf1b9-88de-4b74-82c1-754c3260112a

Probably not. Oh well.That goes back to my original statement:
And there has been no guarantee from TiVo that this will happen. It would be one thing if TiVo guaranteed that this will happen by xx/xx/xxxx (or refund the full purchase price), but quite another to allow such hopes to propagate without loudly issuing appropriate cautions.There are clearly NO assurances from TiVo that this will happen! And when you advised gjlp that essentially TiVo had the solution I pointed this out. Others have pointed out the FCC doc has lots of "coulds" and "ifs" in it. I do believe that my caution still stands.:rolleyes:

You may feel perfectly fine misleading gjlp because you are anonymous. I am not (anonymous) and don't want to mislead anyone. :) IF it happens, then great, but don't bet on it!

That goes back to my original statement:
There are clearly NO assurances from TiVo that this will happen! And when you advised gjlp that essentially TiVo had the solution I pointed this out. Others have pointed out the FCC doc has lots of "coulds" and "ifs" in it. I do believe that my caution still stands.:rolleyes:

You may feel perfectly fine misleading gjlp because you are anonymous. I am not (anonymous) and don't want to mislead anyone. :) IF it happens, then great, but don't bet on it!

Once again absolutely amazing. So there is no hat that can fit your head. Now I have been accused of being "misleading" with my comment. Again here it is my comment - again:

gjlp - Tivo has represented the fact that they are working on a "channel resolver" dongle that will make SDV available to Tivo subscribers. This development is in concert with cable providers. When this will be available has not been announced. My guess is that the representation is real. But again the timimg of its release is in question.

Misleading?

Now contrast my comment with information from the Tivo site:

We expect the adapter to be available to consumers before switched digital becomes widely deployed.

Misleading?

From here:

http://customersupport.tivo.com/LaunchContent.aspx?CID=cbecf1b9-88de-4b74-82c1-754c3260112a

Now again contrast this with some of the unsubstantiated conjecture your crystal ball seems to provide and who is misleading who?

Now again contrast this with some of the unsubstantiated conjecture your crystal ball seems to provide and who is misleading who?Again, my comment:
And there has been no guarantee from TiVo that this will happen. It would be one thing if TiVo guaranteed that this will happen by xx/xx/xxxx (or refund the full purchase price), but quite another to allow such hopes to propagate without loudly issuing appropriate cautions.

Guarantee: No
Date: No
Cautions: No
Too many other people to blame: Yes
Lot's of "ifs" and "coulds" in cable statement: Yes
Risk: Customers alone! :rolleyes:

Dave,

Out of curiosity, do you know what cable operators have paid for the Aptiv Passport updates? We had a poster who said in this thread if I remember correctly that they had things like Caller ID on TV, but it was different than Navigator? I think it was a Passport box.

The Passport platform got a significant upgrade earlier this year (don't know if it's live or not) which offers all the features that TWC were touting as the big selling points, such as Caller ID on screen. It just makes Navigator even more of a dead duck.

A new version of the company's Caller ID app that can run on Passport DCT and Passport Echo on the Motorola platform (it has been available on Passport and Passport Echo for the Scientific-Atlanta platform for over five years). The app, which Aptiv says is compatible with any backend caller ID solution, displays a banner at the bottom of the screen with the phone number, option line number, and name of the incoming caller. It allows end-users to display a call history of up to four phone lines by accessing preferences in the settings menu.
http://blog.itvt.com/my_weblog/2007/05/aptiv_unveils_n.html

sidenote: Aptiv got bought by Gemstar (or TV Guide). Pity TWC didn't just buy Aptiv instead of throwing all the money into the Navigator pit. The built-in TV Guide that comes with your television could end up having a slicker interface than TWC.

davehancock -

I'll try this again.

You have decided to take a very simple post which is this (again):

gjlp - Tivo has represented the fact that they are working on a "channel resolver" dongle that will make SDV available to Tivo subscribers. This development is in concert with cable providers. When this will be available has not been announced. My guess is that the representation is real. But again the timimg of its release is in question.

And for some twisted reason attempted to parse my intentions into this:
Again, my comment:

Guarantee: No
Date: No
Cautions: No
Too many other people to blame: Yes
Lot's of "ifs" and "coulds" in cable statement: Yes
Risk: Customers alone! :rolleyes:

In order for some bizarre reason to sooth you position.

And then thrown in terms like "misleading". I've witnessed "stretches" before but this may set a new water mark.

Ain't going to work - sorry.

I'll try this again.This has been recycled enough.

Ignore Filter=nextoo

I still can't figure out why they (Aptiv, SA,TWC) keep they PITA buttons of A,B,C! Go to a standard format of menu and select like everyone else! They must be in cahootes with Logitech or are making big bucks of "remote tentals". They could make it so much more functional by standardizing the system with other TV's, VCR's, DVD's, etc.

Yea,

I don't even screw around with trying to program those things. I just do mine for the TV. We have a DVD/VCR combo unit and I have never been able to find a code with any remote that I have had that works with it. Using the remote that comes with the equipment that isn't TV related always seemed to work the best for me. People have had these issues for years.

Jack

Yea,

I don't even screw around with trying to program those things. I just do mine for the TV. We have a DVD/VCR combo unit and I have never been able to find a code with any remote that I have had that works with it. Using the remote that comes with the equipment that isn't TV related always seemed to work the best for me. People have had these issues for years.

Jack

Yup, I had to buy a Harmony Remote because the TWC provided one didn't work ANY of my components!

Anyway, I'm hoping by the time we get Navigator that it's working at the pace my SARA is right now. I can deal with one or two missed recording a year.

Yup, I had to buy a Harmony Remote because the TWC provided one didn't work ANY of my components!

Anyway, I'm hoping by the time we get Navigator that it's working at the pace my SARA is right now. I can deal with one or two missed recording a year.
Amazon has a particularly good deal on those right now (at the moment $125.88 + shipping).

This has been recycled enough.

Ignore Filter=nextoo

Thank you very much.

Now go try to act important to those who choose not to call you on your nonsense.

edit -

Thankfully I'm on your filter but I'm going to post it one more time. Because it seemed to bother you. This was the infamous post that set you to go off.

gjlp - Tivo has represented the fact that they are working on a "channel resolver" dongle that will make SDV available to Tivo subscribers. This development is in concert with cable providers. When this will be available has not been announced. My guess is that the representation is real. But again the timimg of its release is in question.

Wow. Dangerous stuff.

I think the old line is "you can't handle the truth" so up goes the filters. Perfect. Expected. Like the little man behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz.

Satch Man - it looks like TBS HD has shown up on TWC of SE WI - your home market.

Chanell 534. It is not included in the online program guide on the TWC web site but it has arrived on the Navigator guide. I was looking for an announcement but it has shown up with no fanfare. Just in time for the baseball playoffs.

TWC had announced it had struck a deal with TBS HD but only a few markets were mentioned.

I'm happy. Great news on the programming side.

Satch Man - it looks like TBS HD has shown up on TWC of SE WI - your home market.

Chanell 534. It is not included in the online program guide on the TWC web site but it has arrived on the Navigator guide. I was looking for an announcement but it has shown up with no fanfare. Just in time for the baseball playoffs.

TWC had announced it had struck a deal with TBS HD but only a few markets were mentioned.

I'm happy. Great news on the programming side.While I hope all the squabbling has ended, could we also please get back on the subject of Navigator? There is a different thread devoted to new HD channels on TW, perhaps you thought you were there.

While I hope all the squabbling has ended, could we also please get back on the subject of Navigator? There is a different thread devoted to new HD channels on TW, perhaps you thought you were there.

Nope I thought I was here. But I'll go there and check it out.. Thanks!

While I hope all the squabbling has ended, could we also please get back on the subject of Navigator? There is a different thread devoted to new HD channels on TW, perhaps you thought you were there.

Found it thanks.

But I am a bit confused. You mention "could we also get back to the subject of Navigator". Who is "we" you've posted twice in this thread and neither post has had anything to do with Navigator. Last post was July 11th.

It made me a bit curious. As you are a Navigator user you should contribute more. It can only help others experiences. As well as you own.

Give a little, get a little.:):)

But regardless. It would be helpful to all if you chose to contribute more!

By the way where are you from? Most in this thread insist on it. I don't care at all but I thought I'd warn you in advance.

Found it thanks.

But I am a bit confused. You mention "could we also get back to the subject of Navigator". Who is "we" you've posted twice in this thread and neither post has had anything to do with Navigator. Last post was July 11th.

It made me a bit curious. As you are a Navigator user you should contribute more. It can only help others experiences. As well as you own.

Give a little, get a little.:):)

But regardless. It would be helpful to all if you chose to contribute more!

By the way where are you from? Most in this thread insist on it. I don't care at all but I thought I'd warn you in advance.

"We" is collective - meaning all of us. Sorry of any confusion there.

I'm sort of an industry insider (sorry, that's all I'll say about that) and became active with all of this misunderstanding about what really was going to happen on 7/1/07. Since then, people have started to recognize what was going on, and my participation has been pretty much co-opted by others.

But I do have a major interest in what is going on regarding Navigator (read into that whatever you will - but no other comment from me).

Because of my situation, I really do have to maintain my anonymity. So, no location, etc. But thanks for the heads up.

I still can't figure out why they (Aptiv, SA,TWC) keep they PITA buttons of A,B,C! Go to a standard format of menu and select like everyone else! They must be in cahootes with Logitech or are making big bucks of "remote tentals". They could make it so much more functional by standardizing the system with other TV's, VCR's, DVD's, etc.
Don't want to take this thread further off into another tangent, but the "A, B, C, D" convention is now a standard feature of Blu-ray and HD DVD players.

"We" is collective - meaning all of us. Sorry of any confusion there.

I'm sort of an industry insider (sorry, that's all I'll say about that) and became active with all of this misunderstanding about what really was going to happen on 7/1/07. Since then, people have started to recognize what was going on, and my participation has been pretty much co-opted by others.

But I do have a major interest in what is going on regarding Navigator (read into that whatever you will - but no other comment from me).

Because of my situation, I really do have to maintain my anonymity. So, no location, etc. But thanks for the heads up.


I just took the time to read some of your posts. Impressive. And I do agree with the points you were making. The posts I read had to do with existing inventory of previously deployed STBs prior to July 1st. And of course they can be redeployed. As well as those that will be returned to inventory after returning from the field. This seemed to be a point of conjecture around the July 1st time frame. It seems simple enough. I understood it at the time. Thanks for your comments.

Don't want to take this thread further off into another tangent, but the "A, B, C, D" convention is now a standard feature of Blu-ray and HD DVD players.

Looks like I found the right "cheap" remote. :eek:

I agree. The ABC thing is a joke. Makes it tough to find a unified remote.

But after looking around I did find a $20 learning remote that has ABCD buttons that works great and it is an 8 device unified remote. You can program the letter keys to do what the ABC buttons to on the TWC remote. And it's cheap for those that don't want to stick a lot of dough into a remote.

It is the Sony RM-VL600.

It is not just ABC, but also separate page up/page down and day forward/day backward buttons. Why can't they make button meanning context-sensitive like other DVRs do (stuff like map channel up/down to page up/down when in menu list), so you don't have to look for a universal remote with the most buttons.

By the way, for those who want to map most useful buttons of Navigator's remote, and like to feel the buttons (as opposed to touchscreen), I use URC-10820 and like it very much. It is below $20, has lots of buttons, macro and learning capability. Does not have buttons labeled ABC, but you can learn them on free buttons, for example L1, L2 and L3. I looked all over internet, and this one seems to have the most buttons among the ones that appear to be good (learning, have macros, volume punch through), and the buttons are arranged in a way that you can quickly tell each button without looking.

Navigator Week 3.

Ok tonight was first time my wife got ticked at the box. All set to watch recording of House in HD only to get struck by audio drop outs (analog). It was consistent, every 15-30 seconds lasting 2-5 seconds. It was unwatchable. I pulled the plug on the box and rebooted. Problem seemed to go away after reboot but creeped back towards the end of the show..but not as long a duration more like half second.

While it was rebooting, I got through to TWC. I got CSR to acknowledge the boxes had lots of problems and probably weren't ready for market at release(I was pretty pointed, she was torn between being honest and trying to spin). When I asked if she would email L3 support manager to request an 8300 Passport DVR be held back for me, she lost her patience, recovered a little, then refused. I asked to speak to her supervisor and she put me on hold then hung up on me.

I'm looking into D* but not excited about having to switch. TWC obviously hasn't addressed core problems but for business reasons have been forced to deploy. I'm sure market forces will take care of them in the long run, it will be hard to keep customer base at this rate.

if they could fix the bugs (especially guide speed and recording reliabilty) in navigator then i have to think it would be better than sara.

sara may be reliable but the search feature is horrible.

Guide speed is fine for me (8300HDC). Reliability is an issue though. I did not have any series recording issues, but did have a non-discriminate "channel not available" bug. Another things is that the box, when it is time to record, thinks it has used more space than it actually has, but the gas gauge is off the other way (tells me I used a lot less than the actual amount). Maybe it thinks I like surprises. It is a lot of fun to find out that, when I used 14 hrs (out of supposed 20), and want to record a 4 hr show, it proceeds to delete some stuff. And the algorithm for deleting is quite simple-minded - it just deletes the oldest stuff until it is happy with the amount of space. I had an interesting situation that, in order to record a 4 hr show, it deleted a .5 hr, 1.5 hr, and a 4 hr show. Even a marginally smart algorithm would have figured out that the old 4 hr show must be a goner, and that is enough space for teh new 4 hr show, so then why delete the other two? But then, decent software would know that it has enough space and it would delete nothing to start with. This way I had 14 hrs, tried to record 4 more and ended up with 12, with my gas gauge happily showing 35%. Maybe the thing is fragmented and it has no way of dealing with it. I tried to make both tuners tune to non-bufferable channel and turned the box off, hoping that it would do the defrag, (I think I remember reading somewhere that something like that is used for defrag, but maybe with Passport or SARA). This apparently did not quite work - the box did the helpful 14 -> 12 thing after that.

Satch Man - it looks like TBS HD has shown up on TWC of SE WI - your home market.

Chanell 534. It is not included in the online program guide on the TWC web site but it has arrived on the Navigator guide. I was looking for an announcement but it has shown up with no fanfare. Just in time for the baseball playoffs.

TWC had announced it had struck a deal with TBS HD but only a few markets were mentioned.

I'm happy. Great news on the programming side.

That's cool,

Still have an SD set (with an HD DVR, cuz that is all he had when it was installed.) I am waiting for more channels to come out on TWC's high def tier before purchasing an HD set.

Sorry to the board for getting off topic. Now back to Navigator.

Jack

Guys,

Here are some screenshots of what I THINK is Passport's latest guide. TWC here in Wisconsin doesn't have some of the advanced games. (We have the Passtime card games, but no sound.) There seem to be more interactive services with this guide. I didn't read all the info so I don't know if an explanation or screenshot is there with Caller ID or not.

Why am I providing this link? To illustrate what could have been if TWC had stuck with Passport and gotten the updates for the boxes instead of going with Crapagator Navigator. I think that as far as TWC is concerned, sadly within 6 months to a year's time, these Passport screens will be a memory. But hopefully the Navigator bugs will be worked out by that time. Here is the link:

http://home.comcast.net/~cypherx3/

You know, that looks alot like the current version of SARA I'm running. It's alot more feature packed and some of the grapics look much nicer, but the actual guide looks very similar. I just skimmed through it quickly, but does this new version support SDV?

Guys,

Here are some screenshots of what I THINK is Passport's latest guide. TWC here in Wisconsin doesn't have some of the screens and games toward the bottom. (We have the Passtime card games, but no sound.) There seem to be more interactive services with this guide. I didn't read all the info so I don't know if an explanation or screenshot is there with Caller ID or not.

Why am I providing this link? To illustrate what could have been if TWC had stuck with Passport and gotten the updates for the boxes instead of going with Crapagator Navigator. I think that as far as TWC is concerned, sadly within 6 months to a year's time, these Passport screens will be a memory. But hopefully the Navigator bugs will be worked out by that time. Here is the link:

http://home.comcast.net/~cypherx3/

That's actually an old version - Passport Version 4.2 build 071. I'm running a box with 4.3 and that's year old.

What you are seeing there are features which TWC have chosen not to implement in some areas, such as the Quick Menu and Buzztime games, even though they have been available for some time. Passtime Games with PiP has been active here for a year or so (but surprise surprise isn't actually working at the moment :rolleyes: ).

The real comparison to Navigator should be Passport Echo.
http://www.pioneerdigital.com/passportecho/passportecho.asp


SARA and Passport have a lot of interface similarities, Passport having a better looking skin. Navigator has to strike the balance of being similar but at the same time not actually stealing anything from either one. Which should be easier than it sounds, but isn't.


(edit: although saying that, I've only just noticed how similar Navigator is to Passport DCT for Moto boxes. I've never realized this until just now.)
http://www.pioneerdigital.com//passportdct/passportdct.asp#

Continuing with the Passport comparison, this is from TW Raleigh:

The Time Warner Cable Navigator™ is the first of many exciting innovations coming your way.*

The TWC Navigator™ provides a faster and easier way to access all you want to see, whenever you want to see it -- Including unique search features** and superior navigation capabilities.

In the near future, the Navigator will also enable Time Warner Cable to offer new interactive services such as games, voting and polling,*** and enhanced TV services. ****

http://www.timewarnercable.com/NC/products/cable/Navigator/navigatorintro.html

* this page has been on the site since about April. I haven't seen any other "innovations."

** anyone know what they are? How is that different to any of the other search features in Passport or SARA?

*** Games and voting services have already been done using the current version of Passport in Raleigh. So it's already a step backwards.

**** Ready to go if TWC chose to use the Passport version.

When nextoo posted that:I took that at face value and thus understood that TiVo had put out the word that this was coming (and I then questioned the value of their statement). They may well have, but the quote that nextoo posted was: 1) not a representation from TiVo and; 2) simply posturing by cable to thwart the CES proposal.

Wish I could have saved a link but I did read that someone other than TiVo was talking about a 100 dollar dongle to be used w/a TiVo DVR that would implement whatever OCAP hardware is necessary AND allow the use of SDV. Now we see claims that TiVo is going to do it... so until any such product from anyone is actually available and known to work, it's seems it's all speculation at best.

As it relates to Tivo I would stick with what Tivo says. And ignore the self proclaimed experts and speculators. Here's Tivo's online customer service announcement.

From the Tivo site:

Information about CableCARDs and Switched Digital Technology

Certain cable operators are using switched digital technology to add new niche channels or eliminate duplicate feeds of premium channels.

Currently, switched digital channels are unavailable to TiVo DVRs that use CableCARDs. However, the cable industry is working with TiVo and others to develop a technical fix so that TiVo devices will be able to access these switched digital channels.

Great progress has been made and the National Cable & Telecommunications Association (NCTA) revealed the solution in a filing with the FCC. The agreed-upon solution is a small external adapter, called a tuning resolver, which will attach to the back of the CableCARD device and enable two-way communication with the cable headend so that switched digital channels can be received by TiVo products.

We expect the adapter to be available to consumers before switched digital becomes widely deployed.

For the full text of the FCC filing on August 24, 2007, please click this link. (The information about the proposed tuning resolver solution, including TiVo’s involvement in this solution, is on page 33 of the filing.)


http://customersupport.tivo.com/LaunchContent.aspx?CID=cbecf1b9-88de-4b74-82c1-754c3260112a

I don't see OCAP mentioned. Nor do I see On Demand, PPV etc. Just SDV. I'd limit ones expectations to simply SDV.

The whole advantage Tivo has over anything else is the conflict resolution, suggestions, web programming etc. All of this would not be possible with an OCAP device.

Not sure that I see this... how could a set of additional APIs negate such simple functions in the over arching software? And why would OCAP have been engineered to NOT allow such additional functionality?

Not sure that I see this... how could a set of additional APIs negate such simple functions in the over arching software? And why would OCAP have been engineered to NOT allow such additional functionality?

My impression is that OCAP means that the whole application will be controlled by the cable company. But I could be wrong - that is why I was asking. I hope you are right and there and sub-modules that can be downloaded to just tell the box how to request SDV channels and how to request PPV...

xnappo

My impression is that OCAP means that the whole application will be controlled by the cable company. But I could be wrong - that is why I was asking. I hope you are right and there and sub-modules that can be downloaded to just tell the box how to request SDV channels and how to request PPV...


That's the impression I'm getting as well. I'm thinking that even if you buy an OCAP Samsung TV for example, when you switch it on you are still going to be seeing Navigator and functions TWC throws at you. Unless there is some element that allows the display device to take the information and render it in it's own software.


from the OCAP primer:

Applications, like a programming guide, an on-demand ordering system,
interactive local news and weather or whatever else, are above the
middleware. Operating systems (OS) are below it.

The job of the middleware is to translate what lies at the root level for
what sits above it—so that, say, an interactive trigger from a programmer
doesn’t need to know what version of OS a particular make of an HDTV set or
a cable set top is using.

So, for example, the middleware helps an interactive game to run on a cable
set-top box, or an “interactive digital cable ready” device, and interact
with a cable system, provided there’s compatibility all around.

...

Technically speaking, ETV has three parts. First is a small chunk of
software called a “user agent,” which gets down- loaded into the digital
box. The job of the user agent is to watch for incoming ETV triggers. When
the triggers appear, the user agent runs them. The second part of the ETV
spec involves signaling methods used to get the interactive triggers from
their point of origination to the user agent. The third part is a standard
form for writing ETV applications, so that they can run on any box that’s
loaded up with the user agent.

ETV In Practice
So, in practice, it works like this: A program network uses
the ETV form to create an application. The triggers for that application get
inserted into the digital TV bit stream (the “MPEG-2 transport stream,” in
tech lingo), using a thing called a “stream generator.” Stream generators
can be located at a content originator’s facilities, or at a cable headend.

Meanwhile, the ETV-capable box gets loaded up with the user agent, and sits
there, waiting and listening. When a trigger slips in through that digital
bit stream, the user agent leaps into action to decode and display the
click- able content on somebody’s cable TV screen.

Any opinions on what to do?

1) Buy a Tivo Series 3, keep TWC
2) Get Direct TV with HR20
3) Live with Navigator until its fixed.
4) Wait till Jan 08 and re-evaluate

I already tried begging, pleading, throwing fit (oh and being nice) to get my old Passport box back. I'm really in a mood to dump TWC to validate my threats (like they care) but all this stuff is in flux, I don't want to get stuck.

My boss has Direct TV with ATSC HD antenna, he's got best of all worlds it sounds like..but to duplicate I'd be looking at some serious dough to get it all wired.

I'd kind of like the local HD feeds over the air just to avoid compression faced with TWC and D*, both D* and Tivo would allow DVR functionality on antenna based content.

Truth Squad could you venture a guess when SARA systems will begin to see NAVIGATOR? SARA 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

That's actually an old version - Passport Version 4.2 build 071. I'm running a box with 4.3 and that's year old.

What you are seeing there are features which TWC have chosen not to implement in some areas, such as the Quick Menu and Buzztime games, even though they have been available for some time. Passtime Games with PiP has been active here for a year or so (but surprise surprise isn't actually working at the moment :rolleyes: ).

The real comparison to Navigator should be Passport Echo.
http://www.pioneerdigital.com/passportecho/passportecho.asp


SARA and Passport have a lot of interface similarities, Passport having a better looking skin. Navigator has to strike the balance of being similar but at the same time not actually stealing anything from either one. Which should be easier than it sounds, but isn't.


(edit: although saying that, I've only just noticed how similar Navigator is to Passport DCT for Moto boxes. I've never realized this until just now.)
http://www.pioneerdigital.com//passportdct/passportdct.asp#

Yea,

I have Passport Echo on my DVR. But it's an older version than what is shown in the pictures.

Jack

Any opinions on what to do?

1) Buy a Tivo Series 3, keep TWC
2) Get Direct TV with HR20
3) Live with Navigator until its fixed.
4) Wait till Jan 08 and re-evaluate

I already tried begging, pleading, throwing fit (oh and being nice) to get my old Passport box back. I'm really in a mood to dump TWC to validate my threats (like they care) but all this stuff is in flux, I don't want to get stuck.

My boss has Direct TV with ATSC HD antenna, he's got best of all worlds it sounds like..but to duplicate I'd be looking at some serious dough to get it all wired.

I'd kind of like the local HD feeds over the air just to avoid compression faced with TWC and D*, both D* and Tivo would allow DVR functionality on antenna based content.

That's a tough call. At least options #3 and #4 won't allow you to spend more money. I don't know about mixing Tivo with Navigator! Do you have any All in One Packages? You don't want to lose the discounts if you do. Also, look at the packages that you would get with Dish and compare them to cable. Are there installation fees and things that they don't tell you about with Dish? Check out long-term contract issues. Buying a Tivo, getting Dish, and paying for installation can be expensive.

Do you have a lot of trees in your neighborhood? This can be a major issue with Dish as well. How bad has Navigator been for you? Is it a minor annoyance? Or is it so bad like, "I need Dish next week" kind of thing? Maybe waiting till the first of the year, if Navigator is just doing minor bad things might not be a bad idea. I think it should get better over that period of time.

On the other hand, if you have an area unobstructed by trees and have the money, you'll probably get more reliability from Dish, but there is often an upfront price to get it. It's not an easy choice.

Jack

I am about at threat level orange of "I need Dish next week". If my wife misses one of her shows, we could be at Defcon1 pretty quick.

I've got LOS to satlellites, within reason, money isn't really an object unless I get stuck with stuff that doesn't work. I just want best solution, least hassle.

Plus I'd really like to stick it to TWC, they ticked me off. I hate being extorted into continued patronage. Monopolies suck.

Any opinions on what to do?

1) Buy a Tivo Series 3, keep TWC
2) Get Direct TV with HR20
3) Live with Navigator until its fixed.
4) Wait till Jan 08 and re-evaluate

I already tried begging, pleading, throwing fit (oh and being nice) to get my old Passport box back. I'm really in a mood to dump TWC to validate my threats (like they care) but all this stuff is in flux, I don't want to get stuck.

My boss has Direct TV with ATSC HD antenna, he's got best of all worlds it sounds like..but to duplicate I'd be looking at some serious dough to get it all wired.

I'd kind of like the local HD feeds over the air just to avoid compression faced with TWC and D*, both D* and Tivo would allow DVR functionality on antenna based content.I'd suggest DirecTV, if you can. It certainly looks like they will be offering more HD content than TW. But then there are the TW bundles, so I can't say what is best economically for you.

The TiVo approach (as I've pointed out) does not currently work with SDV (one of the reasons TW is switching to Navigator) and is offering ABSOLUTELY NO GUARANTEES (the risk is yours) that they will have a SDV solution.

RE: Compression. There is an assumption that cable applies additional compression that is not there on OTA. That is often (usually) not the case - in fact, in many areas, the opposite may be true. If the cable head end receives their signal via fiber or microwave, the signal that they relay could well have less compression than OTA. Actually, there are FCC regulations against "material degradation" of a local OTA station. Now "material degradation" has not been defined yet, so there may some additional "grooming" on local OTA in some cases. It does vary from system to system, the "key" is how many HD stations per QAM. Two is the norm, and if they stick to that, then there is no grooming going on. But where there is 3, then that is done with additional compression. In Rochester, there are just 2 per QAM, but I understand that in Manhattan there are several cases where there are 3 per QAM. I seem to recall being told that on local stations that it is still 2 per QAM (but that could be wrong).

I hate being extorted into continued patronage. Monopolies suck.Yes, but most of the satellite deals being offered today require a 2-year commitment. Isn't that being "extorted into continued patronage"?

Does anyone know when the South Carolina region will get the Navigator software from TWC? Specifically Columbia or Charleston.

Ive been doing some back reading on this thread but didn't see any roll out schedule.

Thanks.

dave

thanks for the good input. Yes the 2 year commitment is a roadblock.

Continuing with the Passport comparison, this is from TW Raleigh:



* this page has been on the site since about April. I haven't seen any other "innovations."

** anyone know what they are? How is that different to any of the other search features in Passport or SARA?

*** Games and voting services have already been done using the current version of Passport in Raleigh. So it's already a step backwards.

**** Ready to go if TWC chose to use the Passport version.

Just to "Echo" (As in "Passport Echo") (LOL!) what Vision said,

Those features have been on updated Passport systems for a long time. That promotional gig on many TWC websites has been around in many locations since January. I also want to thank those of you for providing us with the Aptiv/Passport links above. The updated versions are there. It is just that TWC does not want to pay out the rental fees to use them.

Some understanding can be illustrated by comparison. For example, would you rather own your house (have control over all elements of the Navigator system.) or rent your house? (pay out the fees to Passport and Sara for updates.) The problem, in my view, is not TWC wanting their own system across the country, (i.e owning the "Navigator" house.) It is the lack of competent professional programmers and software developers needed to make Navigator a stable and strongly requested system in the wake of more stable competition in the existing Passport and Sara software. Using this example, what good is "owning the house" if you don't know how to maintain it and fix things in order to keep it updated and running at top performance? That's Navigator's main problem.

Jack

dave

thanks for the good input. Yes the 2 year commitment is a roadblock.Honestly, if they were jamming Navigator in it's current state down my throat, I'd move to either Dish or DirecTV. Around here Dish has a deal with the local phone company, so I could get my package there. But they also have a 2 year commitment, their DSL is marginal and (according to TW ads) they charge $500 for early termination.

I discussed with my wife and we're going to wait. There'll be more options. Tivo is supposed to have SDV solution coming and looks like D* has new box(s) coming out.

Honestly I looked at the web programming interface a little while ago for Tivo and wanted it immediately, might be best of both worlds for us.

I'd love D* too, so going to wait.

I for one am going to wait it out here and see what incarnation of Navigator we get once it's deployed. I will give it six months to be working at least to the same level as our current SARA. I also heard from a person inside TWC (on the national level) that they plan to start matching DirecTV's HD line up, so I'm willing to give that some time too. If they fall too far behind, then I'm going to have to look at other options.

I for one am going to wait it out here and see what incarnation of Navigator we get once it's deployed. I will give it six months to be working at least to the same level as our current SARA.Fat chance! It's now been about a YEAR since Navigator made it's first appearance in Lincoln. It is still plagued with major problems, but some find it marginally OK ONLY IF they have the latest box (with 128MB Applications RAM). Something appears conceptually wrong with Navigator, and there are not a lot of signs (only hopes) that it will get "up to snuff" for the masses.

I also heard from a person inside TWC (on the national level) that they plan to start matching DirecTV's HD line up, so I'm willing to give that some time too. If they fall too far behind, then I'm going to have to look at other options.What do you call "too far behind". Excluding local channels, TW offers YOU (in Syracuse) 14 HD channels, while both DirecTV & Dish TODAY have 40 (DirecTV will likely have 70 by the end of the year). If what your source says is true, they had better start moving!

Back to Navigator................

PS: I'm sticking with TWC for awhile too.

Yea, but as of this latest DirecTV rollout, there are only about 5 in that bunch I care about. I mean really, The Weather Channel in HD! C'mon... You have to remember that SDV is crucial in rolling out any significant amount of HD for TWC. This is why they want Navigator nationally, even though the SARA software can handle it already and works great. I'm going to stick to my time frame. Depending on how buggy it is and whether or not they will be willing to discount it if it is. If not, I will request a SARA enabled box back and if they won't deliver then I will look to switch over to DirecTV. I am going to drop a line to my TWC contact about Navigator and see if she can provide any info.

My impression is that OCAP means that the whole application will be controlled by the cable company. But I could be wrong - that is why I was asking. I hope you are right and there and sub-modules that can be downloaded to just tell the box how to request SDV channels and how to request PPV...

xnappo

Too bad we don't ever get a straight story... what I'm suggesting is really mostly educated guesses. Somehow I got the impression that OCAP was essentially a series of "hooks" into the OS, ones that meant applications either couldn't happen without it or it had ways TO accomplish a task that weren't as onerous as without them. Kind of like a framework in Unix systems. Or APIs bound to a OS. I base this in part on my early reading about it, that it would "allow" for new applications the cable company could offer (for $$$).

Of course I could be all wrong, but it does seem to make sense AND seems like something I would certainly do if I ran a cable company (i.e. it's a good business move).

BTW, think about SDV. We think we know that SDV is working (SARA) long before OCAP seems to actually be deployed. Given my speculation, it would seem that it might be far more efficient to use the OCAP APIs to implement it than brute force.

That's the impression I'm getting as well. I'm thinking that even if you buy an OCAP Samsung TV for example, when you switch it on you are still going to be seeing Navigator and functions TWC throws at you. Unless there is some element that allows the display device to take the information and render it in it's own software.

Ah, thanks for the quote. The way I read it, it sure seems to NOT contradict my "speculation." Still, an OCAP TV doesn't seem to make much sense... the underlying OS (RTOS?) clearly allows for a program guide and all of the functioning we already do have. I'd doubt the cable guys really want the TV is be the foundation they lay their services on...

Any opinions on what to do?

1) Buy a Tivo Series 3, keep TWC
2) Get Direct TV with HR20
3) Live with Navigator until its fixed.
4) Wait till Jan 08 and re-evaluate

Very logical thought process... IMO I'd go for #4.

Are you stuck w/Nagivator right now? Then 3 and 4 are much the same. We "know" SDV should solve the bandwidth issue, but we also know that TWC can take forever to do something with it.

One issue with TiVo is the enforced lock-in. To get even semi-reasonable pricing, you have to go for the lock in/cancellation fee route. Month to month is HUGELY expensive.

Yes, but most of the satellite deals being offered today require a 2-year commitment. Isn't that being "extorted into continued patronage"?

TiVo is more clever... go month to month and you're up for HUGE monthly fees, opt for the 2 year lock in and it gets slightly more reasonable (from something like 17 bucks/month to 9). BTW, one SHOULD factor in the cost of the hardware... I used a typical 3 year depreciation cycle in calculating what it would cost me.

Too bad we don't ever get a straight story... what I'm suggesting is really mostly educated guesses. Somehow I got the impression that OCAP was essentially a series of "hooks" into the OS, ones that meant applications either couldn't happen without it or it had ways TO accomplish a task that weren't as onerous as without them. Kind of like a framework in Unix systems. Or APIs bound to a OS. I base this in part on my early reading about it, that it would "allow" for new applications the cable company could offer (for $$$).


Yep, I have gone back and forth between thinking what you said above, and thinking that any OCAP device you attach to the TWC network will run Navigator... This is what TWC and Samsung demoed last year:
http://www.noticias.info/asp/aspComunicados.asp?nid=135183&src=0

xnappo

Let's have some speculation ideas,

In six months time, what do you guys see as Navigator's future? What about within a year? Do you still think that they are going to roll out an non OCAP version for people with grandfathered boxes that currently do not have enough memory to run Navigator?

Jack

I had to swap my 8300HD Monday and got a new 8300HDC with OCAP/Mystro software.
I called TWC on Tuesday (adv. support) and Wednesday (supervisor) to complain about:
1. Cannot change output, eg 480i, 720p...
2. No time shifting. Passport would buffer both tuners for up to one hour.
If I playback a prerecorded show, swap tuners, or turn off the cablebox it clears the buffer. This is a definite deal breaker!
3. Swap button worked with Passport. Now you have to hit Pip and then Pip Swap to swith between tuners and of course you loose your buffer.
Except for the time shifting and the output issue I really like the new menu.
I have another box with Passport so I'm going to keep this for another week.
If these issues are not corrected by then I will return it.
I've read through this thread and I have not had any Series Recording issues but I only have the box for one week. I did experience some playback problems, esp. when trying to playback a show while it's recording. A reboot which takes a full 5 minutes did fix it though.

Update.
I found a fix for the Output issue other than using a component cable.

The Settings menu reports "Not available when connected via HDMI...

Turn everything off, cable box, TV, receiver...
Disconnect the HDMI cable from the rear of your cable box.
Turn everything back on while HDMI still removed.
Now connect the HDMI cable back to the cable box.
Go to Settings, Diplay, Output and it's now available until you reboot.

Can someone else confirm this?
Maybe just a glitch with my box?

My HDC was not very responsive at all with Navigator, and most other people here have posted similar experiences. You must have a "ringer."

Ted

My HDC box became much more responsive with the guide when the software was upgraded a couple weeks ago.

Am I just communicating with a CSR from TWC that doesn't have a clue? I emailed them regarding Navigator and, this is the email reply I received.

"I’m writing in reference to your email request. In reviewing the information you are requesting I have checked with the technical department and to there knowledge Time Warner Cable doesn’t have Navigator software for the DVR. Time Warner Cable has an instruction manual and codes to program the DVR. Are you having problems with the DVR? Time Warner Cable can schedule and appointment to swap your DVR or one can be picked up at a local office. If you have any additional questions or concerns please feel free to contact me via email or by phone."

Am I just communicating with a CSR from TWC that doesn't have a clue? I emailed them regarding Navigator and, this is the email reply I received.

"I’m writing in reference to your email request. In reviewing the information you are requesting I have checked with the technical department and to there knowledge Time Warner Cable doesn’t have Navigator software for the DVR. "

Now that is comedy.

Maybe they scrapped it at the TWC Navigator software head closet, and forgot to tell the divisions before they started releasing it!

Update.
I found a fix for the Output issue other than using a component cable.

The Settings menu reports "Not available when connected via HDMI...

Turn everything off, cable box, TV, receiver...
Disconnect the HDMI cable from the rear of your cable box.
Turn everything back on while HDMI still removed.
Now connect the HDMI cable back to the cable box.
Go to Settings, Diplay, Output and it's now available until you reboot.

Can someone else confirm this?
Maybe just a glitch with my box?

I can change the settings by turning DVR on first, then after a few seconds, the TV (if you turn TV on first, it is not available). But I found out that, at least in my case, this setting is useless, anyway, as, no matter what the setting is, DVR just passes through the incoming resolution. My guess is that DVR communicates with the TV over HDMI as to which resolutions TV would accept as input, then passes through all the ones that TV would accept, and converts the ones TV can not accept to something that it will accept. In my case, as TV can handle them all, incoming resolution is always passed through. This is probably for the best, as the TV can likely convert the picture from the incoming resolution to its native one better than the DVR.

Am I just communicating with a CSR from TWC that doesn't have a clue? I emailed them regarding Navigator and, this is the email reply I received.

"I’m writing in reference to your email request. In reviewing the information you are requesting I have checked with the technical department and to there knowledge Time Warner Cable doesn’t have Navigator software for the DVR. Time Warner Cable has an instruction manual and codes to program the DVR. Are you having problems with the DVR? Time Warner Cable can schedule and appointment to swap your DVR or one can be picked up at a local office. If you have any additional questions or concerns please feel free to contact me via email or by phone."

Hahahahaha!!!!!

Out of all the stupid, inept, clueless cable CSR's, not just at TWC but around the country at ANY cable company, this e-mail should be framed and preserved! This is even funnier than what YouTube had a while back with the Comcast guy sleeping on a customer's couch waiting for his office to authorize a box!

Board Admins, you should keep that quoted e-mail. It is hilarious!!!!

Jack

PS. Funny sentence structure too! "TWC can schedule AND appointment!!!!" LOL!

Pedjar

On my unit, it upconverted everything to 1080i on my 480p projector and looked horrible on native 480i channels...

Hahahahaha!!!!!

Out of all the stupid, inept, clueless cable CSR's, not just at TWC but around the country at ANY cable company, this e-mail should be framed and preserved! This is even funnier than what YouTube had a while back with the Comcast guy sleeping on a customer's couch waiting for his office to authorize a box!

Board Admins, you should keep that quoted e-mail. It is hilarious!!!!

Jack

PS. Funny sentence structure too! "TWC can schedule AND appointment!!!!" LOL!

I believe this may be more of a comment on the performance of our educational system.

The cableco's and any other customer service intensive organization does not have a "breeding" plan in place to fill the next empty seat. These jobs are filled by what the entry level job pool provides.

Regardless of industry.

And no matter what the opinion. These are entry level positions.

Guys,

Some posters above were talking about how the new Passport updates have many of the features of Navigator and because it is Passport it is more reliable. My question is, with Navigator, why is TWC making a big deal about the DVR Recording Log and Conflict Resolution? Isn't the Recording Log in Navigator the same as the Show List in Passport for programs that have recorded or are currently recording? As for Conflict Resolution, Passport gives you messages if something doesn't record properly already. So what do you get for new DVR features in Navigator? (I mean, besides migraine headaches trying to get the thing to work! LOL!)

Jack

I believe this may be more of a comment on the performance of our educational system.

The cableco's and any other customer service intensive organization does not have a "breeding" plan in place to fill the next empty seat. These jobs are filled by what the entry level job pool provides.

Regardless of industry.

And no matter what the opinion. These are entry level positions.It's less an issue of a personnel training plan than it is in having a good, easy to use, and complete database that these folks use.

It's less an issue of a personnel training plan than it is in having a good, easy to use, and complete database that these folks use.

What ever happened to the "ignore filter"?

You need to get back to that. That was your intention correct?

Not my idea - yours.

Get back behind the curtain before the little dog gets loose off it's leash.

What ever happened to the "ignore filter"?

You need to get back to that. That was your intention correct?

Not my idea - yours.

Get back behind the curtain before the little dog gets loose off it's leash.Opps - didn't recognize that posting was from someone that was so unreasonable.

Sorry, I'll try not to make reasonable comments to those rare posts from you that seem reasonable (because they won't bring a reasonable response).

It's less an issue of a personnel training plan than it is in having a good, easy to use, and complete database that these folks use.

You obviously have never toured the TWC facility in Milwaukee. It is a fabulous facility. On MLK drive. Cream city bricks. Stunning building as a legacy of the old Schlitz brewery.

The labor pool is a result of the MPS school system. All of those CS kids have great entry level jobs as a result of TWC. It was part of the plan. But it is MPS that in my opinion is at fault. Not TWC. (MPS = Milwaukee Public Schools)

I am not a TWC employee. Never worked for TWC. Only stock I owned related was TW Telcom. Different company. Was good for me.

Now I can contrast that with my tours of factories just outside of Shenzen China. Which was the result of my experience with a couple of ASI companies I was involved with.

Different animal.

I'll place my vote on what TWC is trying to do in MKE. Regardless of the ridicule.

I can change the settings by turning DVR on first, then after a few seconds, the TV (if you turn TV on first, it is not available). But I found out that, at least in my case, this setting is useless, anyway, as, no matter what the setting is, DVR just passes through the incoming resolution. My guess is that DVR communicates with the TV over HDMI as to which resolutions TV would accept as input, then passes through all the ones that TV would accept, and converts the ones TV can not accept to something that it will accept. In my case, as TV can handle them all, incoming resolution is always passed through. This is probably for the best, as the TV can likely convert the picture from the incoming resolution to its native one better than the DVR.

Didn't work for my Sony XBR910 or Epson HC400.
Any SD channel with 480i output appeared on the screen as a squished vertical band in the middle of the screen.
All I could do was to stretch it and that looked terrible.
Now that I can disable 480i and 480p everything looks much better.
They need to fix this. Output should be adjustable.
Most HDTVs don't handle 480i SD very well.

Maybe the one selling point with me still having an SD TV is that I won't have to worry about those settings whenever Navigator is sent to my box.

It sounds like Navigator has been even MORE of a nightmare for those with HD TV's.

Jack

Let's have some speculation ideas,

In six months time, what do you guys see as Navigator's future? What about within a year? Do you still think that they are going to roll out an non OCAP version for people with grandfathered boxes that currently do not have enough memory to run Navigator?

Jack

Curious... first time I've heard a mention of a non OCAP version. Somehow I'm very skeptical about such an item. Yes I understand that there is a different version to run on the 8300HD (a REALLY scary prospect, once they push it on us, I'll HAVE to get a HDC box), but I just can't see them having 80% of their base be without OCAP. I'd also bet that 5 years down the road, 50% of the base may still have 8300HDs. So a non OCAP Nagivator doesn't seem all that likely, I believe!

As far as future, that a hard one. For the past year, it occurs to me that they have less than zero experience in writing software. And certainly at the management level, they suck (I don't know one software developer that would EVER let an alpha version to be deployed in production) BIG TIME. I hate to be negative, but I think a year down the road we'll have a still barely functional piece of software running on our boxes. By that time, (at least for me) I should have a better idea of when FIOS will arrive in my house... and then I can declare I don't give 2 farts about Nagivator!

Now if they had subbed the creation out to Apple... using that stripped down version of X; wouldn't THAT be interesting?

I believe there are two flavors of Navigator (Mystro). ODN and MDN. ODN is OCAP Digital Navigator which is self explanatory. MDN is Mystro Digital Navigator which is being developed for the legacy boxes. MDN may allow them to get off Passport and churn the legacy boxes off the system on their schedule. As opposed to swapping out all the boxes quickly.

I belive MDS is the one SARA customers will begin to see next year if they do not have 8300HDC boxes.A lot of 8300hd and a ton of the 8300SD boxes are out there.MDS will probably replace non hd passport and sara software and non hdc software.

MDN (my bad typo) 1.89.17.1 sara Greensboro NC

I have an SA 8300HD DVR box,

So, am I correct in assuming that they are going to download the guide to the HDC boxes fist and than the SA DVR's? I know that here in Metro-Milwaukee Wisconsin, we have about 50% with Navigator and 50% with Passport. (No Sara systems here.) I guess what I am asking is, is there an average time frame when SA 8300 DVR owners can expect the download of Navigator to begin on their boxes?

I can not even begin to imagine how the old Pioneer, Pace, and lesser memory non-DVR boxes are going to be able to run ANY version of Navigator. What's the memory on those old Pioneer boxes again? If TWC learns over time from the Navigator Nebraska debacle, the thing to do is to just let those legacy boxes die of natural causes due to age. (And we know that there are 1000's of them out there.)

I guess the question raised from this is, since TWC will not pay the licensing renewal for Passport to Aptiv TV, when is TWC OBLIGATED TO NO LONGER HAVE ANY VERSION OF PASSPORT IN CIRCULATION? In other words, is there a month deadline, where due to TWC's decision not to renew the licensing rental fees due to Aptiv that Navigator MUST be put on new boxes or downloaded to old boxes regardless of how many bugs may still remain in the software?

Jack

Pedjar

On my unit, it upconverted everything to 1080i on my 480p projector and looked horrible on native 480i channels...

You are right, that is obviously bad. I guess it is dependent on display device; probably there is some issue with communication between the projector and the DVR. You may be better off with component cables then. FYI, I have Panasonic TH-58PZ700U, so at least this model is known not to have that issue with the DVR. I'd be curious to see exactly which display devices have the issue - maybe projectors more than TVs?

Guys,

... Isn't the Recording Log in Navigator the same as the Show List in Passport for programs that have recorded or are currently recording? ...

Jack

No, that's the Show List. Actually, "Recording Log" is a misnomer. Actually, it is "Failed and deleted recordings log". It is useful to show to TWC tech that you really have "channel not available" bug.

Didn't work for my Sony XBR910 or Epson HC400.
Any SD channel with 480i output appeared on the screen as a squished vertical band in the middle of the screen.
All I could do was to stretch it and that looked terrible.
Now that I can disable 480i and 480p everything looks much better.
They need to fix this. Output should be adjustable.
Most HDTVs don't handle 480i SD very well.

You may want to set it to stretch or zoom in the DVR (under Settings/Display). Then you can use TVs format options on it. I trust TVs internal upgrading of 480i more than DVRs, but that is TV dependent. Granted, most 4:3 480i stuff does not look good, either way (DVR or TV upgrading), but I've noticed that the stuff that was recorded in HD originally, then downgraded to 480i since channel is non-HD (most of SciFi channel stuff that looks letterboxed on 4:3 TVs), look decent when zoomed in (not HD good, but decent).

You may want to set it to stretch or zoom in the DVR (under Settings/Display). Then you can use TVs format options on it. I trust TVs internal upgrading of 480i more than DVRs, but that is TV dependent. Granted, most 4:3 480i stuff does not look good, either way (DVR or TV upgrading), but I've noticed that the stuff that was recorded in HD originally, then downgraded to 480i since channel is non-HD (most of SciFi channel stuff that looks letterboxed on 4:3 TVs), look decent when zoomed in (not HD good, but decent).

Sony XBR910 won't allow you to change aspect ratio with HDMI -DVI.
Epson HC400 with HDMI allows a stretch mode.
I don't like how the stretch looks. Keep the aspect ratio.
Settings in the cable box is only useful to zoom 4:3 picture frame.
I'd rather disable 480i and 480p with the cable box.
1080i for XBR910 and 720p for HC400.
Picture looks great now.

8300HDC OCAP with Navigator:
Has anyone else had this problem: Last week my box shut off and rebooted. When it came back on, it said it's not authorized, call customer service. I called and they said to reset it again and then it worked. It was OK for a few days.

Now the DVR feature doesn't work at all. In the guide, there is no "Record" option and the DVR menu doesn't show up when List is pressed on the remote or box. It looks like all mys hows are gone and it was only about 35% full.

I've had the "channel not available" problem before and also the DVR would randomly stop working. Sometimes it would not buffer live programming. Also, the sound cuts in and out on recordings, especially on HD channels. The worst one was WJW-DT FOX.

I've had the OCAP box since mid-August and it was new out of the box when the tech came. He did say they have problems with them and they are being recalled. I HATE Navigator and when I call I'm ready to ask if I can get a Passport box again. Are there 8300 boxes w/ Passport that are HD? I've had the 8300 SD with Passport and loved it!

Are there 8300 boxes w/ Passport that are HD? I've had the 8300 SD with Passport and loved it!If you are lucky you might be able to find an old 8300HD. Since July 1, all new cable boxes (SD or HD) have to use CableCards per FCC regulations. These CableCard boxes require certain changes in their software and TW has decided not to pay the Passport folks for the upgrades. Instead, they have elected to use their own (Navigator) software on the CableCard boxes. Regulations do permit the cable companies to "recycle" old boxes that have been turned in, and those probably still work with Passport. Unfortunately, it may be a matter of "luck" in finding one of those boxes. I'll bet that the TW folks are saving those for their own use. :cool:

Has anyone had any experience with Navigator on 8300sd boxes? Sara 1.89.17.1 Geensboro NC

Navigator Week 4
In the past few days, new bugs have cropped up. I missed the last half of the Ohio St game in HD, got a blue screen that said to receive this channel, contact your cable provider....waited on hold for 45 minutes for them to reboot the box(I'll only make this mistake once).

Tonight while my wife was watching recorded Desperate Housewives in HD, it would only display 480i...then about 15 minutes in, it switched all by itself to HD. Then, at 8 it froze completely and I had to reboot. I figured out that at 8pm 2 series recordings started at once but it didn't prompt to chose how to solve the conflict.

Unfortunately the recording for Desperate Wives was preserved.

Unfortunately the recording for Desperate Wives was preserved.

I watch Desperate Housewives with the wife. This week was worth it just to see Terri Hatcher in the lingerie she had on! :D Plus Dana Delany was a great addition to the cast.

Anyway, back to Navigator. These reports of more and more bugs are not boosting my confidence at all! One would think that after a year in the marketplace things would be getting BETTER, not worse. I'm afraid that my six month window I'm willing to give Time Warner once deployment will be missed and DirecTV will gain another sub.

The thing is this: There was just an article in our local paper which TWC says they are not carrying TBS HD (due to the MLB playoffs) here because they don't have the capacity. The TWC rep states that after the first of the year when they convert to a switched video system that they will then have the capacity to carry all the channels DirecTV has and more. However, we are on SARA and they could technically deploy SDV right now! I think this is a telltale sign that Navigator is coming and they are waiting to use SDV until it is deployed.

This is going to stink more than outhouse in July!

I think this is a telltale sign that Navigator is coming and they are waiting to use SDV until it is deployed.A bit paranoid are we? :eek:

A bit paranoid are we? :eek:

Wouldn't you be worried if you had a system that worked to your satisfaction being replaced with a piece of crap that must help the sale of Bayer?

Navigator Week 4
In the past few days, new bugs have cropped up. I missed the last half of the Ohio St game in HD, got a blue screen that said to receive this channel, contact your cable provider....waited on hold for 45 minutes for them to reboot the box(I'll only make this mistake once).

Tonight while my wife was watching recorded Desperate Housewives in HD, it would only display 480i...then about 15 minutes in, it switched all by itself to HD. Then, at 8 it froze completely and I had to reboot. I figured out that at 8pm 2 series recordings started at once but it didn't prompt to chose how to solve the conflict.

Unfortunately the recording for Desperate Wives was preserved.

I had that problem last Friday before the DVR completely stopped working. After recording "Dr. Phil", the box shut itself off and re-booted. I thought it was just it's "usual (almost)daily reboot". When it came back on, NONE of the channels or menus worked. Just a blue screen that said the box was not authorized and to call customer service. Typical Time Warner operation: the last number was cut off on the screen. On the phone, they told ME to unplug the box and turn off the TV, the box rebooted and when it got to L-13, it shut off again and rebooted again. It worked after that until the DVR stopped working over the weekend. The LIST button does nothing. the record option is gone and the progress bar is gone. Time to call again and go through all the BS to get someone on the phone. Oh, and I missed Terri Hatcher b/c I was watching the Indians. THANKS FOR NOTHING, TIME WARNER!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Wouldn't you be worried if you had a system that worked to your satisfaction being replaced with a piece of crap that must help the sale of Bayer?Except that TW really has no motivation to dump SARA - it does everything that they want (without the proven hassles of Navigator). I am not a "the sky is falling" person.

Northeast Ohio is split: The "legacy" Akron system is Passport and has been since digital cable started with Pioneer boxes(BD-V1000).
The former Adelphia systems use SARA and SA boxes. Navigator is just being introduced on the new OCAP boxes. I was in the "unlucky few" to get the new box in August. I had an 8300 SD with Passport and it was great, then two 8000HDs. Those were CRAP! One did not work at all and the other 8000HD worked for an hour before the whole thing fried itself and did not work at all.

Terri makes it somewhat easier for sure...but the play on the field stands. She also watches Ugly Betty and Grey's Anatomy.

A guy can only take so much...of course its the football game that crashes...not her shows.

Terri makes it somewhat easier for sure...but the play on the field stands. She also watches Ugly Betty and Grey's Anatomy.

A guy can only take so much...of course its the football game that crashes...not her shows.

I'm actually OK with Grey's. I like medical show plus Meredith and Izzy aren't bad to look at!:)

Except that TW really has no motivation to dump SARA - it does everything that they want (without the proven hassles of Navigator). I am not a "the sky is falling" person.

No "sky is falling" mentality here. We were told by the same person (Head of Public Relations) to expect Navigator the 1st quarter of 2008. His recent statements seem to enforce this, that's all. I was mainly commenting on the current state of Navigator and the fact that even people who have had it for over a year now still see little improvement with it. Taking these factors into account, I have no reason to believe it will be "fixed" when they deploy it here. I hope they prove me wrong and release a version as stable and reliable as SARA, but past practice says not to get my hopes up.

No "sky is falling" mentality here. We were told by the same person (Head of Public Relations) to expect Navigator the 1st quarter of 2008. His recent statements seem to enforce this, that's all. I was mainly commenting on the current state of Navigator and the fact that even people who have had it for over a year now still see little improvement with it. Taking these factors into account, I have no reason to believe it will be "fixed" when they deploy it here. I hope they prove me wrong and release a version as stable and reliable as SARA, but past practice says not to get my hopes up.
PR folk are usually the least informed of what's going on (I'll bet he thought that Navigator was great!) But enjoy your paranoia then. :cool:

I've been following this thread for awhile and when I switched from Directv back to TWC Charlotte about 2 months ago I made sure to get a Passport box and not an "OCrAP Navigator" box because of what I read here.

Anyway the consensus here seems to be that TWC is rolling out Navigator in Passport markets because Passport cannot handle SDV, however, it appears that TBS HD became the first SDV channel here when it went live last week. People with TiVo HDs report that they cannot get the channel, but I can get it with my Passport Echo box.

Can anyone confirm that TBS HD is an SDV channel here in Charlotte? If so, it means that Passport boxes can receive SDV channels and markets that use them might have more time before the dreaded Navigator conversion.

On a side note, there were a couple of TWC techs outside my house today and I talked to them about SDV, etc. When I mentioned the term "OCrAP Navigator" box they looked at each other and chuckled.

From a poster earlier in this thread on Navigator:

OH, BTW you can no longer reboot the box by holding down the PWR button, you have to pull the plug. Another example of going backwards. I think I was told by Customer Care that there is a 3 button key combination that will reboot certain boxes, but it doesn't work on all. I guess that simple "HOLD Down the Pwer" button must have also been a Passport trademark protected process. This seems to be the standard answer you get when you call customer care about lost features.

Has an update been made so that you can now reboot the boxes by using the power button?

Jack

OH, BTW you can no longer reboot the box by holding down the PWR button, you have to pull the plug. Another example of going backwards. I think I was told by Customer Care that there is a 3 button key combination that will reboot certain boxes, but it doesn't work on all. I guess that simple "HOLD Down the Pwer" button must have also been a Passport trademark protected process. This seems to be the standard answer you get when you call customer care about lost features.

it also seems that a properly working DVR is another Passport trademark protected process! :)

Other than unplugging it, you can also reboot the boxes by holding the INFO, Vol + and Vol - buttons on the front panel. As anyone with Navigator likely knows, that's CS's suggestion for seemingly everything. :)

From a poster earlier in this thread on Navigator:



Has an update been made so that you can now reboot the boxes by using the power button?

Jack

Anyway the consensus here seems to be that TWC is rolling out Navigator in Passport markets because Passport cannot handle SDV, however, it appears that TBS HD became the first SDV channel here when it went live last week. People with TiVo HDs report that they cannot get the channel, but I can get it with my Passport Echo box.

Can anyone confirm that TBS HD is an SDV channel here in Charlotte? If so, it means that Passport boxes can receive SDV channels and markets that use them might have more time before the dreaded Navigator conversion.


I'm in Charlotte. What channel is TBS HD? I haven't seen it and I subscribe to the HD tier.

Other than unplugging it, you can also reboot the boxes by holding the INFO, Vol + and Vol - buttons on the front panel. As anyone with Navigator likely knows, that's CS's suggestion for seemingly everything. :)

What about the people with Sara IPG's. How do they reboot? To be honest, I think it's pretty stupid that Passport has copywritten the hold power button to boot process. This is something that should be a conventional standard for all digital boxes.

Knowing Navigator, the Info Vol+/Vol- for a box reboot won't be the final release. In TWC's wonderful program design of Navigator it will be the steps below:

(HERE IS A FUNNY PARODY OF TWC INSTRUCTIONS FOR NAVIGATOR ON THE BASIS THAT THE HOLD POWER BUTTON/BOOT DOESN'T WORK ANYMORE WITH NAVIGATOR.)

TO REBOOT BOX:

1.) Press the Info Button 5 times.

2.) Point your Remote toward the Northeast hitting the Guide Button 3 Times.

3.) Nod your head up and down 10 times, than stop for 5 seconds.

4.) Now, looking straight at your TV, say, "I Love My New Navigator Guide" 10 times, pausing for 5 seconds in between talking. YOU MUST SAY THIS DURING THE REBOOT PROCESS OR YOUR BOX WILL NO LONGER WORK! (You will than need to call our professional CSR representatives to assist you, or bring in your box to your local TWC office, or have a trained TWC tech come to your home to exchange the box.)

Now press the power button and during the reboot process, you must only think positive thoughts about your Navigator Guide. Any negative comments about the Guide or about the company will be recorded in the Conflct Log, to be read by our head-end server, and will cause your system to crash. In that case, re-follow the above step. (step 4)

5.) When your Guide comes back on your default channel, make sure to say, "I Love Navigator" again. Than yell, "WOOOOO HOOOOOO!" This will keep it working.

Thank you for choosing TWC.

Jack

it appears that TBS HD became the first SDV channel here when it went live last week. People with TiVo HDs report that they cannot get the channel, but I can get it with my Passport Echo box.While I can't confirm that, I can give you some insight into what TW is apparently doing on the way to SDV.

First, they won't likely be implementing SDV in any Passport system while a large part of their HD customer base is still running Passport.

Second, I know in other cities (like where I am) TW has not made new HD channels available to CableCard customers. For quite awhile, that made folks here think that SDV was active - but it really wasn't. What TW is apparently doing in these cases, is simply to restrict availability of new channels that ultimately be on SDV. That way, there won't be customer outrage when they finally do go switched.

FWIW

I got the new HD channels (well, TBS HD Anyway) over Navigator. I was told my box has 2 cable cards in it...so wouldn't that mean its SDV?

All these acronyms flying around, I confess I don't keep up to date.

Tonight while my wife was watching recorded Desperate Housewives in HD, it would only display 480i...then about 15 minutes in, it switched all by itself to HD. Then, at 8 it froze completely and I had to reboot. I figured out that at 8pm 2 series recordings started at once but it didn't prompt to chose how to solve the conflict..

Oh, this is a frequent occurrence, no matter what software you are running. Mostly I think the problem stems from the source... i.e. it's those "engineers" at ABC who are asleep at the controls (AND there is a very large chain there, from the network to the local station). I've seen it corrected dynamically, corrected after the next commercial break or last for 20 minutes before it got corrected.

The weirdest "asleep at the wheel" goes to CBS who managed the first 15 minutes of a Cold Case episode to have music and sound effects, but no voice mixed in.

Oh, I've worked at network, in ops and lemme tell you, the guys at the switches make a way good living, many guys pull six figures easily.

Except that TW really has no motivation to dump SARA - it does everything that they want (without the proven hassles of Navigator). I am not a "the sky is falling" person.

Uh, far as I know SARA does NOT do OCAP and Nagivator does, so there seems reason enough to dump it (corporate reason, not customer focused). Besides, you well know it's we Passport folks who are going to suffer the through public alpha testing!

2 cable cards mean they can decode 2 streams simultaneously. Essentially the same end result as 2 tuners in an older STB.

FWIW

I got the new HD channels (well, TBS HD Anyway) over Navigator. I was told my box has 2 cable cards in it...so wouldn't that mean its SDV?

All these acronyms flying around, I confess I don't keep up to date.Your cable supplied box having CableCards (Are there really 2? Or just one Multi-Stream card?) has nothing to do with the Box being capable of receiving SDV (Switched Digital Video). Two things are required in the box to allow it to work with SDV:
1) Two way communication with the cable system (which all cable supplied boxes can do).
2) Appropriate software in the box (which TW's version of Passport does not do, but Navigator supposedly does).

Passport and SDV: An answer and a question:

In Northeast Ohio(at least the Akron system) we have SDV. All channels under 100 are digital(they have DD2.0 sound and the Diagnostics channel, the tuning section says they are QAM 256) They haven't said anything about it, I noticed better picture and discovered ch.611 when a tech was over. We have Passport and there was an update last summer. All the boxes from Pioneer BD-V1000s to 8300SD seem to work OK.

That leads to my question. Could an OCAP box run this version of Passport? Other Passport boxes are doing SDV. Also, I noticed the OCAP box loads in two parts: first the front panel say OCAP and a Scientific Atlanta OCAP screen is on with a countdown. After that, the L-13 countdown from Mystro comes on. Could Mystro/Navigator be switched with Passport and would that resolve recording problems?

Passport and SDV: An answer and a question:

In Northeast Ohio(at least the Akron system) we have SDV. All channels under 100 are digital(they have DD2.0 sound and the Diagnostics channel, the tuning section says they are QAM 256) They haven't said anything about it, I noticed better picture and discovered ch.611 when a tech was over. We have Passport and there was an update last summer. All the boxes from Pioneer BD-V1000s to 8300SD seem to work OK.


I am missing something here - what does digital simulcast have to do with SDV? Sure SDV would help with the bandwidth - but the two don't have to go together.

xnappo

In Northeast Ohio(at least the Akron system) we have SDV. How do you know that you have SDV? There are lots of false signs.

SARA 8300hdc with 1.90 software does do ocap.Was told this by a TWC repairman working on my neighboros house.As far as he knew we would be on SARA at least 6-8 more months. SARA 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

In my neck of the woods, SE Wisconsin, the local HDTV forum contains posts that ESPN2 was the first HD channel offered in SDV. It showed up a couple of months ago. My Passport box picks it up just fine. So when reading the posts in the local forum this can lead one to believe that Passport can do SDV. But it leads me to believe that ESPN2 is not an SDV channel (which by the way is the case).

Why? The Navigator box I have picks up 20 SDV "test" channels. I can't remember the exact channel numbers but I think they are 1801 to 1820. The Passport box cannot tune in these channels. The Navigator box can. So the Navigator box can tune in SDV. The Passport does not.

SARA 8300hdc with 1.90 software does do ocap.Was told this by a TWC repairman working on my neighboros house.As far as he knew we would be on SARA at least 6-8 more months. SARA 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NCTWC repairman is getting things mixed up: SA8300HDC can run OCAP OR SARA (or Passport).

Dave thats what I meant. SARA 1.89.17.1 Greensboro NC

Now I'm really confused. A channel like 24 CNN on the digital box is digital. On a TV without a box, it comes in as analog. As for the "test channels", the Navigator box doesn't have any channels that are not on the Passport box. In my case it's the opposite. The Passport box has some channels like an interactive channel to view your bill and it's not on Navigator. So I wonder what the situation is with the channels under 100?
There also used to be digital versions of CNN, Weather Channel, A&E, USA, TNT, TBS and lifetime up in the 600s.

Strange. TWC of SE WI just enabled the caller ID feature on my SA8300HD running Passport (2.6.002). Why would they add a feature to a fleet of boxes if there is a plan in place to move them to Navigator. Seems a bit counter productive to add features to something that is, as far as TWC is concerned, at the end of its life cycle.

Now I'm really confused. A channel like 24 CNN on the digital box is digital. On a TV without a box, it comes in as analog. As for the "test channels", the Navigator box doesn't have any channels that are not on the Passport box. In my case it's the opposite. The Passport box has some channels like an interactive channel to view your bill and it's not on Navigator. So I wonder what the situation is with the channels under 100?
There also used to be digital versions of CNN, Weather Channel, A&E, USA, TNT, TBS and lifetime up in the 600s.Well, xnappo alluded to this yesterday.

What you are seeing is called "digital simulcasting". Cable has been doing this for some time. What they are doing is sending out many (or even all) of their "expanded basic" SD channels BOTH in the original analog channel and also as a digital channel. Cable puts 12-15 SD digital channels on a single digital (QAM) channel, which takes the same space as just one analog channel. While the digital signal is not as sharp as the analog (depending on your receiver), it is more immune to noise, and is easier to record on a DVR. Further, if all expanded basic channels are digital, cable can use cheaper set top boxes (STBs) that have only digital tuners. This also is a mechanism for cable to migrate to an all digital system (though that is not the direction that TW is heaaded)

Your STB has a channel map function, that actually tunes in the digital channel, when you have asked for, what you think is, an analog channel. For example: Your CNN (cable channel 24) is 225Mhz on analog, and it's digital "clone" is on the QAM channel on 717MHz (for example), along with 14 other SD digital channels. The fact that the STB is tuning a digital channel at 717MHz instead of an analog channel at 225MHz is transparent to you.

This simulcasting is pretty independent of the particular cable boxes or operating software.

Test channels are also pretty independent of the boxes. Cable companies use them for different reasons. The most common use is when the cable system is migrating to higher frequencies to gain needed bandwidth. A 750MHz system is pretty common these days, but cable systems have been trying to upgrade to 860Mhz, and higher systems. Doing so requires lots of changes in the infrastructure (new amplifiers, taps, and at times cable). So they send out test channels so that they can fine tune the system in advance of putting actual program material there. Don't get too excited about this: it may take them YEARS before they have the whole system "up to snuff".

Strange. TWC of SE WI just enabled the caller ID feature on my SA8300HD running Passport (2.6.002). Why would they add a feature to a fleet of boxes if there is a plan in place to move them to Navigator. Seems a bit counter productive to add features to something that is, as far as TWC is concerned, at the end of its life cycle.

Wow!

Now THIS is interesting! When did you get it, Nextoo? Did the box just reboot and it was there? How do you activate it on your remote?

Jack

Wow!

Now THIS is interesting! When did you get it, Nextoo? Did the box just reboot and it was there? How do you activate it on your remote?

Jack

Caller ID shows up on channel 199. You go to channel 199 and there are a couple of settings that can be accessed. On/off. Banner duration.

I wonder if they had to throw it in because all of their digital phone marketing includes the caller ID feature.

And I thought we had problems:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=369113

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=369368

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=369178

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=369439

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=369374

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=369454

And on and on.

I guess things are tough all over.

Caller ID shows up on channel 199. You go to channel 199 and there are a couple of settings that can be accessed. On/off. Banner duration.

I wonder if they had to throw it in because all of their digital phone marketing includes the caller ID feature.

We also have it now on our Passport box. Kind of cool. There was a voicemail on our machine that said that our area would be activated by Thursday. (tomorrow.)

Jack

Strange. TWC of SE WI just enabled the caller ID feature on my SA8300HD running Passport (2.6.002). Why would they add a feature to a fleet of boxes if there is a plan in place to move them to Navigator. Seems a bit counter productive to add features to something that is, as far as TWC is concerned, at the end of its life cycle.

Maybe they are abandoning Navigator? :p I doubt that, but it does seem weird they are adding new features to a supposed obsolete guide while Navigator users continue to suffer. Also, in our market last night around 3:30am boxes were reported to be spontaneously rebooting. I checked my guide here and no change in appearance. When I fire up my PJ later I'll check the current SARA revision and post accordingly.

When I fire up my PJ later I'll check the current SARA revision and post accordingly.

Pajama-vision?

Maybe they are abandoning Navigator?

We should be so lucky...

Maybe they are abandoning Navigator? :p I doubt that, but it does seem weird they are adding new features to a supposed obsolete guide while Navigator users continue to suffer. Also, in our market last night around 3:30am boxes were reported to be spontaneously rebooting. I checked my guide here and no change in appearance. When I fire up my PJ later I'll check the current SARA revision and post accordingly.

Well,

Nextoo and I are in the same Wisconsin areas. I am just starting to think about this. We both now have TV Caller ID on the same Passport box. AFAIK, it is the older version of Passport. But look at the picture: In January (around the 3rd week) we get a form letter giving us a date within it that at least one of our boxes would be undated to Navigator. (But at that time, all we had was an old legacy Pioneer box.) The other two boxes that we DID have but since returned were buggy Pace's and SA's. Well (thankfully) that update never happened. What did happen around February was a Daylight Savings Time Patch between 3-6 am one night. I was nervous because I was SO SURE it was Navigator........but it wasn't, just the DST patch.

TW-Milwaukee kept promoting Navigator on TV, BUT when the problems started happening in Nebraska and the surveys about Navigator, which were available on TWC Milwaukee's home page, things got very very quiet. They kept pushing out the Passport boxes. I am sure that 70% or more of the survey responses were negative about Navigator and our division just hasn't been making a big deal about it over here. In fact, when we got our DVR box as part of the "All in One" upgrade, I asked the tech about Navigator and he looked at me like he didn't know what I was talking about! But the general consensus seems to be that things have been mute in Milwaukee about Navigator and the rollout has been slow. Of those customers that have it, there have not been NEARLY the problems associated with what I have heard about in other states.

Maybe we got lucky with our Wisconsin division, and our President does not want a roll out of Navigator until the software has its bugs worked out. Nationwide, the success rate for this product has been so horrible that it has been like putting the Titanic and Hindenburg together in terms of disaster. Why would the second largest cable company in the country want bad PR by risking a national rollout of Navigator? An IPG that obviously was NOT thoroughly tested before its release! In contrast, some divisions like Lincoln Nebraska don't seem to care, and a poster has indicated that they are not even running the latest version of Navigator. But there are STILL a huge number of TWC divisions that don't have this guide and maybe enough local presidents who saw this debacle and may not want it. Could enough local presidents complain to TWC headquarters insisting that this product may need another YEAR of testing before a national rollout?

Could you imagine how horrible a national rollout of Navigator would be in a major city like Los Angeles or something? TWC could face lawsuits for developing such poor software without proper testing. At least some divisions are trying to save face by not deploying it or doing it very, very slowly. Several boxes in some divisions have been recalled. I have heard that some Motorola DVR boxes with Navigator being tested on them were so crappy, that they didn't even make it out of the labs. Bad speculation and publicity with a large business has a way of becoming fact regardless of whether it is true or not. To my knowledge, there is no mandated timeline for a national Navigator rollout. The executives in the club may WANT a 1st Quarter 2008 rollout. But if Navigator's not ready by than, what are they going to do? Release this all over the country through overnight downloads and piss off MILLIONS of customers with a guide that can't even be predictable on a DVR recording? Too big of a risk and liability for TWC. If they do this, they could lose 60% of their customers.

Navigator needs to be recalled, reevaluated, worked on for a year in the labs, and than gradually rolled out to small populations AFTER ALL MAJOR TESTING has been completed on a division by division basis with very small representative random population samples. In the meantime, TWC divisions should pay any fees to Passport for updates, learn from these updates how to develop Navigator into a quality product, and just can the whole main stream rollout idea of Navigator for at least another year. There are so few people that are happy with this guide that it is just not worth the time and trouble of a national release, until the bugs have been fixed.

Jack

Great commentary Jack! I agree, I was writing to my national contact at Time Warner inquiring about being a beta tester for Navigator in our division. I suggested allowing me (a knowledgeable user) the opportunity to run the a unit through it's paces and report results/issues directly to the pertinent parties for resolution. I was suggesting running a Navigator box on one of my bedroom sets where I could mirror the programming with my SARA box on my main set. I could then compare where glitches occurred on one or the other. The response I got was that Navigator no longer requires beta testing because it has been successfully deployed in other markets. I found that response to be proof that there is a gross lack of communication between national and local divisions/reps. It's like I get a different answer from anyone I talk to.

On the down side, I called DirecTV today and wasn't really impressed with there offer. They just can't come close to the price point I'm getting from TWC. They want $200 up front for equipment and my monthly bill would be about $95 for virtually the same programming I get from TWC for $58. Granted I'd have the full package on each set and the expanded HD offerings, but it's just not worth the extra $30 a month. I'd also lose my HD locals and have to add an antenna to get them, but their SD receivers DON'T have ATSC tuners in them and therefore I'd only get the full spectrum of locals on one set. (We have overlapping markets that DirecTV doesn't carry). The lack of tuners coupled with the additional monthly fees is a deal breaker, so I'm hoping TWC gets Navigator working proper or leaves us with SARA and activates SDV to expand our HD line up.

Satch Man - perhaps a bit strong. As I posted above if you go to the tivolovers forum it makes Navigator look like a walk in the park. My Navigator box has not exhibited any real problems (SA8300HDC). Granted I'm only going into the third week with it but I'm sure there are others out there with no complaints. I'm not a heavy series recorder so maybe that is why. So Navigator may not be a total disaster for all users. As always the squeaky wheel gets the most attention.

As far as Passport I think we need to follow the money. Passport is an Aptiv Digital product. Aptiv is a wholly owned subsidiary of Gemstar TV-Guide. Gemstar TV-Guide is controlled by Rupert Murdoch's News Corp., according to a regulatory filing (41%). Which may not sit too well with the TWC folks. Just a thought but there are usually many less obvious things that may affect decisions like this.

In August News Corp entered into a deal to purchase the Wall Street Journal. Murdoch would like to maximize current investments (raise cash) as a result. Gemstar recently engaged UBS Investment Bank to explore options (which typically means to sell the company). So maybe the money path will change. And Gemstar may wind up with a new majority owner.

A bit off topic - sorry. But quite honestly there seems to be very few ground level Navigator users posting in this forum. Either some Navigator users are happy enough not to search out a forum to post problems or there are just not very many Navigator users out there to support a ground level users thread. The most prolific posters in the thread don't use Navigator. Nothing wrong with that but where are the Navigator users?

When I picked up my Navigator box recently it seemed like 8 out of 10 people in line were there to pick up HD STBs. None were there returning one. My guess is that most of the HD STBs handed out were running Navigator. Mine was. I know the Milwaukee HDTV forum has very little to say about Navigator. As more users get out there I'm sure we'll hear more.

Nextoo
Volume of posts aside, rest assured there are many disgruntled Navigator users. Informal polling here at my office suggests everyone is experiencing same problems, most just don't spend their time posting in threads like this. I've been providing a weekly diary since I switched. I've seen nothing to suggest improvement from TWC. My audio sucks, box hangs, box is slow, takes forever to reboot, etc etc.

I have not missed any recordings yet, thankfully, so I can't confirm what others have seen in that regard.

I'm pretty knowledgeable user and it took me a while to find this thread...I mean there are many variations of TWC DVRs and software....its not like there's a big ad in the paper saying post problems with Navigator here->.

Nextoo
Volume of posts aside, rest assured there are many disgruntled Navigator users. Informal polling here at my office suggests everyone is experiencing same problems, most just don't spend their time posting in threads like this. I've been providing a weekly diary since I switched. I've seen nothing to suggest improvement from TWC. My audio sucks, box hangs, box is slow, takes forever to reboot, etc etc.

I have not missed any recordings yet, thankfully, so I can't confirm what others have seen in that regard.

I'm pretty knowledgeable user and it took me a while to find this thread...I mean there are many variations of TWC DVRs and software....its not like there's a big ad in the paper saying post problems with Navigator here->.

I've been using Navigator for about 6 weeks. Had issues with "channel not available" bug, replaced box after two weeks, issue has not returned. Had (probably still have) issue with things being deleted even though there should be enough space, and gas gauge is off. Other than that, no reliability issues. Audio's fine, box does not hang, nor is it slow (8300HDC), and I don't care how long it takes to reboot (7 minutes or so) as I do not reboot it, and it does not reboot by itself, either. Interface is somewhat user hostile, but tolerable. Overall, the Navigator is far from good, but it is servicable. Now, if TivoHD was a really reliable alternative (no issues with software, no issues with cable cards and it worked with SDV), I'd seriously consider it, even if it had nothing over Navigator except 30 second skip. Of course, a professional grade DVR has a lot more over Navigator (my almost 10 year old ReplayTV is a model of user-friendliness compared to it). There are a host of inconveniences with Navigator, but they are not deal-breakers for me. Also, it is quite convenient that, when the box is flaky, you can get a new one the next day, no questions asked (maybe I was lucky with the TWC people I delt with).
So, Navigator is not all gloom and doom, but, in my book, it has a long way to go to be considered more than just tolerable.

I've been using Navigator for about 6 weeks. Had issues with "channel not available" bug, replaced box after two weeks, issue has not returned. Had (probably still have) issue with things being deleted even though there should be enough space, and gas gauge is off. Other than that, no reliability issues. Audio's fine, box does not hang, nor is it slow (8300HDC), and I don't care how long it takes to reboot (7 minutes or so) as I do not reboot it, and it does not reboot by itself, either. Interface is somewhat user hostile, but tolerable. Overall, the Navigator is far from good, but it is servicable. Now, if TivoHD was a really reliable alternative (no issues with software, no issues with cable cards and it worked with SDV), I'd seriously consider it, even if it had nothing over Navigator except 30 second skip. Of course, a professional grade DVR has a lot more over Navigator (my almost 10 year old ReplayTV is a model of user-friendliness compared to it). There are a host of inconveniences with Navigator, but they are not deal-breakers for me. Also, it is quite convenient that, when the box is flaky, you can get a new one the next day, no questions asked (maybe I was lucky with the TWC people I delt with).
So, Navigator is not all gloom and doom, but, in my book, it has a long way to go to be considered more than just tolerable.

Great post. Thanks for the contribution. I agree.

Navigator has a long way to go. But the platform may have a bit of promice.

although I'm generally in the lukewarm "it's okay, I can live with it" camp regarding Navigator, my box went haywire twice in the last 24 hrs...

Last night, while it was taping two network HD shows simultaneously (notice how I discreetly avoid mentioning what pathetic shows I tape), I turned the machine on to watch (one of those two shows), and got to see about 1 minute before the screen went blue with a notice saying "to subscribe to this channel, call 718-whatever" or something like that. Hmm? Turned to the other channel, got about a minute of that, then got a blue screen with a differently worded but equivalent message. Being careful to stick to the two channels being tapes, swapping back and forth I could get a minute or so of each before the box again reverted to the blue message screen. Oh well - watched a couple of other pre-recorded shows, which worked fine, and later, when all recording was long done, I tried again - any and all channels would give me a minute and then crap out to blue.

Hard reboot later, everything was fine - and at least one of the programs recorded during the malfunctions came out perfect. Don't know about the other one yet - it shows up as recorded, but have bot yet watched.

This morning, I switch to HBO OnDemand, notice that the little advertising box in the top right is not scaled - it's shown in full size, but I can only see the top quarter since the rest is concealed by the program options. Hmm? Open up the Guide, browse to 702 and hit Select - wham, program options are gone, now it's showing the full-screen HBO OD advertising. Try to get back to guide - won't go. Type in 1 to go to local SD - won't go. Channel up/down - won't go. Power on/off - nothing responds - Navigator is stuck on the HBO OD advertising spool, in full-screen.

Hard boot later, everything was fine again.

I still feel it's workable, but there is no doubt this device is *not* ready for production - it's a very flaky beta product.

Great post. Thanks for the contribution. I agree.

Navigator has a long way to go. But the platform may have a bit of promise.

Good topic,

I guess that the Wisconsin divisions that have Navigator MIGHT be having less problems overall. Having said that, I will still say that the following are true:

1.) The upgraded guide was rolled out too fast.

2.) There are still needed improvements to bring it up to a quality level. (For many, who are paying $65-$200 a month for cable, something like a new updated guide needs to be a lot more than tolerable.) An upgrade should be at least at a B+ level, with the potential to get to an A as improvements and enhancements are made. It seems that Navigator is probably at a C+ in the good markets with less problems and a D in other areas. At least, there have been improvements from the solid F that most would have given this software back in January. There have been improvements, but not enough of them for the number two cable system in the country.

3.) Time Warner has had grade A success with Passport and Sara IPG's, as well as Digital Phone and Road Runner. Hire quality programmers and software developers for Navigator, and the potential for that guide could get up to I'll say a "B." on average. Not an "A" yet, because the software is too inconsistent from division to division. This is going to take time for Navigator to reach its potential. LOTS OF TIME.

How about this? Everyone indicate your TWC location and if you have Navigator, give it two to three grades:

A. If applicable, give Navigator a grade if you were one of the early people to get it From September '06 to April '07 (What grade would you give Navigator if you got it during these months?) If you got Navigator AFTER April '07, skip this question.

B. What grade would you presently give Navigator based on features/functionality? If you answered question A, how much of an improvement has occurred? (i.e how much have the updates helped?)

C. For future potential to be a strong product, how would you rate Navigator? (This is speculation on this question.)

Add any comments.

Jack

Heinriph
Add me to the list of "blue screen while taping 2 shows"...its happened 2x and I forgot to mention it.

Nextoo
Its swell that you're enjoying your unit. However that's faint praise. Now matter how much lipstick you put on it, its still a pig. This is an ugly, cheapo solution that was rushed to market so they could move to SDV without paying Aptiv or the like.

Don't offer false hope to those reading this forum. This thing wouldn't even make a very good boat anchor!

I'm moving to Tivo as soon as they offer the SDV dongle, hopefully soon.

Time Warner Cable Northeast Ohio(Akron/Summit County)

A. I've had Navigator since August 2007.

B. I'll give the 8300HD box aB- (Because I'm happy with the picture quality. A few channels look too compressed, but that's not the boxes fault. Also, the 8300HD is a BIG improvement over the 8000HD)
NAVIGATOR-OVERVIEW
I give Navigator a D- to an F. The menus are just plain ugly and the channel banner is too big and guide shows less info than the Passport guide. The menus are also more confusing, I liked Passport's A B C options at the bottom of the guide and DVR, I don't like the left/right menus and options. It makes me think of Directv's guide and I liked Passport better than them too. Also, the Access Menu is pointless, just another way for TW to force their services down our throats. And the "Enhanced TV" thing is pointless, all it does is come up when a channel is also in HD.
NAVIGATOR-RECORDING
Recording gets a an F! My VCR was more reliable as long as I had enough tape. I've had shows record for only 10 minutes or not at all because of "Channel Not Available" and unwatchable recordings because of audio dropouts, especially on HD channels. Also, the other tuner doesn't buffer live TV and the main channel doesn't buffer live TV when the box is turned off or playing back a show. I was p!$$ed the first time I found that out when I turned on the TV in the middle of a show and couldn't go back.

#C. I REALLY HOPE NAVIGATOR IS NEVER A STRONG PRODUCT!! IT SHOULD IMMEDIATELY BE ABANDONED AND THE PEOPLE WHO WROTE THAT SOFTWARE SHOULD NE FIRED!! Leave the software development to the professionals at Aptiv. IMO, Passport gave Time Warner and edge over satellite, it was one thing I considered after switching to D* briefly. When Navigator goes live on all boxes, there's gonna be more trouble and I see customers leaving.

Quick Question: Does anyone have Navigator running on an older box like a BD-V1000 or a SA8000? If there is this much trouble with the new boxes running Navigator, I don't see how the old boxes are going to handle it.

nicdawg

From what I gather, Navigator needs the faster/more processor/memory of the newer boxes.

I don't know about firing the Software Developers though. Usually failures like this stem from upper management not defining the project correctly and/or inadequate funding.

If TWC had just struck a deal with Tivo...they'd own our market.

I have the new OCAP 8300HD. The guide/UI still moves slow. I don't think the old Pioneer or 8000 boxes could handle it. I can't wait to see how that will work.

(notice how I discreetly avoid mentioning what pathetic shows I tape)

And here I thought watching Ghost Whisperer for JLH's bounteous ta-tas was perfectly acceptable?

From what I gather, Navigator needs the faster/more processor/memory of the newer boxes.

I don't know about firing the Software Developers though. Usually failures like this stem from upper management not defining the project correctly and/or inadequate funding.

If TWC had just struck a deal with Tivo...they'd own our market.

It seems that the only difference between the HD and the HDC boxes are the installed RAM. Everything else appears to be the same.

The really scary part is that there are 2 Nagivator variants, one for the larger memory space and one for the HUGE installed base of HD models. As soon as they roll that second variant, I'm swapping boxes... BUT I get you I'll have to wait for weeks/months to get a HDC.

Riverside
Realize there are hardware revisions within the 8300HD spec.

Here's SA's recommendation:
http://scientificatlanta.com/customers/Source/7008360.pdf

In this document they specifically note that OCAP is recommended only for 8300 "C" or "HDC" models with 128 MB Ram.

So if you have revision "C" of the 8300 HD-DVR you may very well get Navigator. I'm guessing they have a way of knowing at head end which type of box is eligible to receive Navigator on a roll out and flag the rest for replacement. (If they don't, ugh that'll be ugly)

Caller ID shows up on channel 199. You go to channel 199 and there are a couple of settings that can be accessed. On/off. Banner duration.

I wonder if they had to throw it in because all of their digital phone marketing includes the caller ID feature.

I live in the Kenosha area and over the weekend caller id was added. About three months ago a TW tech told me we would be getting caller id for the exact reason you gave nextoo. Good call.

Just swapped my 8300hd box with passport for a 8300hdc box that booted up with Navigator, so wish me luck, wanted to see what all this is about...

On a side note, do you guys know who builds Verizons FIOS TV guides? I was at a buddies that just had it installed, and was blown away by the look and performance of the guide which is running on a MOTO box, it seriously makes Passfart and Navicraper look like a freaking fat zit faced teen in his parents basement...glasslike, fast, beautiful, and its a damn shame I'm in an AT&T service area, I would drop TWC like a hot rock...

I believe the Verizon IMG is all done in-house now. They used to run Microsoft Mediaroom (a bit like at&t Uverse) but they dropped it and went their own way.

Just swapped my 8300hd box with passport for a 8300hdc box that booted up with Navigator, so wish me luck, wanted to see what all this is about...

On a side note, do you guys know who builds Verizons FIOS TV guides? I was at a buddies that just had it installed, and was blown away by the look and performance of the guide which is running on a MOTO box, it seriously makes Passfart and Navicraper look like a freaking fat zip faced teen in his parents basement...glasslike, fast, beautiful, and its a damn shame I'm in an AT&T service area, I would drop TWC like a hot rock...

Please report your findings with Navigator. Let us know your first impressions as well as what you like and dislike about it. Post an issues or problems and the differences you find between your old software and the new one. In other words, give us a review.

Just swapped my 8300hd box with passport for a 8300hdc box that booted up with Navigator, so wish me luck, wanted to see what all this is about...

On a side note, do you guys know who builds Verizons FIOS TV guides? I was at a buddies that just had it installed, and was blown away by the look and performance of the guide which is running on a MOTO box, it seriously makes Passfart and Navicraper look like a freaking fat zip faced teen in his parents basement...glasslike, fast, beautiful, and its a damn shame I'm in an AT&T service area, I would drop TWC like a hot rock...

Is Verizon going to be for cable, or dish, or are they a separate company that delivers the signal in a different way? What is the FIOS Guide like?

Yea, good luck with Navigator.....(knock on wood.)

Jack

Navigator Week 6:

New symptom tonight, I think. On playback of recorded tonights episode of How I Met Your Mother, it froze for a few seconds then jumped to middle of a commercial, right in middle of scene...played part of the commercial then seemed to return to show to catch last 30 seconds of the scene...then went to last part of the commercial it just left. I don't think it was the network's problem but I forgot to go back and confirm before I deleted.

Have had random freeze ups and of course its slow,slow,slow and analog audio is horrible. I finally switched analog outs to the secondary output and confirmed that it removed distorted audio on right channel that was occurring. Volume is still screwed up though, very compressed and tinny sounding, no matter the surround mode I try.

Its been 3 weeks and TWC still hasn't buried the cable in my yard either, supposed to come this week.

I hate this box and hate the company but don't have viable options at the moment.

Navigator Week 6:

New symptom tonight, I think. On playback of recorded tonights episode of How I Met Your Mother, it froze for a few seconds then jumped to middle of a commercial, right in middle of scene...played part of the commercial then seemed to return to show to catch last 30 seconds of the scene...then went to last part of the commercial it just left. I don't think it was the network's problem but I forgot to go back and confirm before I deleted.

Have had random freeze ups and of course its slow,slow,slow and analog audio is horrible. I finally switched analog outs to the secondary output and confirmed that it removed distorted audio on right channel that was occurring. Volume is still screwed up though, very compressed and tinny sounding, no matter the surround mode I try.

Its been 3 weeks and TWC still hasn't buried the cable in my yard either, supposed to come this week.

I hate this box and hate the company but don't have viable options at the moment.

If anybody knows or has friends or relatives of friends who work for TWC as program developers, field techs, or is in any way involved with the programing and or distribution of Navigator, PLEASE let them know about this site. Even giving them this direct URL might help. This isn't meant to be cynical. There are so many wonderful people who could help the programmers, techs, and developers work out the bugs in Navigator. The people here could provide almost an on-going Instant Messaging communication where this information could be passed on to the development team.

I am even optimistic that there are people at TWC who would like to help. But the problem is that there appears to be so much ineffective communication or misleading information between TWC's local, state, and national divisions, that many of Navigator's problems aren't being solved because the structural foundation of the new guide is still so unstable for most people. I believe that there can be positive communication to fix things if there are massive complaints about the problems. But as posted above, there aren't enough people outside of the great posters on this board who are voicing their concerns about Navigator. I guess my question is, going beyond the conventional call CS, speak to an often clueless CSR, reboot the box/exchange box repeat the ritual due to this mediocre software 5 times over, who can be contacted from a programmer, engineer, or head CEO, that can bring about enough complaints about the Navigator system to get TWC to realize at the national level that Navigator is a very unstable product even after a year in the field?

Are there any higher ups that could be contacted to at least put this planned national roll-out on hold for six months to a year until it is ready? For those of you with Navigator, and if you have problems, have you tried contacting the President of your local division or any higher ups? What if any responses did you receive?

Jack

Well so far I'm not impressed in the least bit, I think I took a step backward...the funny thing is Navigator is basically TWC blatantly copying and ripping off Aptiv and their passport software, how are they actually getting away with it, it is almost identical...

Anyway, it is definitely slower, channel changing, guide speed, FF and REW...a lot of it, especially going into settings and channel 199, seems like its streaming in from the back end somewhere and thats why it takes so friggin' long. Search isn't so hot either, slow clicking through to the letters. I can definitely see why everyone is up in arms about this thing..I may give it a few more days just to clear out my wife and I's shows that are recorded and hopefully get my 8300HD with passport back...my office is usually pretty good about exchanges which was the case yesterday.

Satchman, here's a nice flash demo of the FIOS guide...makes me cry actually..

http://promo.verizon.com/img/

Riverside
Realize there are hardware revisions within the 8300HD spec.

Here's SA's recommendation:
http://scientificatlanta.com/customers/Source/7008360.pdf

In this document they specifically note that OCAP is recommended only for 8300 "C" or "HDC" models with 128 MB Ram.

So if you have revision "C" of the 8300 HD-DVR you may very well get Navigator. I'm guessing they have a way of knowing at head end which type of box is eligible to receive Navigator on a roll out and flag the rest for replacement. (If they don't, ugh that'll be ugly)

In my market, they have been giving out HDC boxes w/Nagivator since 7/1. So far, they have left along our HD/Passport boxes. Like I said, I have many times heard about an alternative version of Nag. that was "meant" for the HD boxes... which were RAM limited compared to the HDC boxes. THAT is way scary... an alternate IPG to a very buggy piece of software!

If anybody knows or has friends or relatives of friends who work for TWC as program developers, field techs, or is in any way involved with the programing and or distribution of Navigator, PLEASE let them know about this site. Even giving them this direct URL might help. This isn't meant to be cynical. There are so many wonderful people who could help the programmers, techs, and developers work out the bugs in Navigator. The people here could provide almost an on-going Instant Messaging communication where this information could be passed on to the development team.

I am even optimistic that there are people at TWC who would like to help. But the problem is that there appears to be so much ineffective communication or misleading information between TWC's local, state, and national divisions, that many of Navigator's problems aren't being solved because the structural foundation of the new guide is still so unstable for most people. I believe that there can be positive communication to fix things if there are massive complaints about the problems. But as posted above, there aren't enough people outside of the great posters on this board who are voicing their concerns about Navigator. I guess my question is, going beyond the conventional call CS, speak to an often clueless CSR, reboot the box/exchange box repeat the ritual due to this mediocre software 5 times over, who can be contacted from a programmer, engineer, or head CEO, that can bring about enough complaints about the Navigator system to get TWC to realize at the national level that Navigator is a very unstable product even after a year in the field?

Are there any higher ups that could be contacted to at least put this planned national roll-out on hold for six months to a year until it is ready? For those of you with Navigator, and if you have problems, have you tried contacting the President of your local division or any higher ups? What if any responses did you receive?

Jack

I would if I could but I have very little to complain about. I believe I'm coming to the end of my third week with Navigator. No missed recordings, no reboots (that I am aware of), very responsive guide, etc. The guide is actually more responsive than the Passport guide. For example when scrolling through the guide starting from channel 1 and going to 1999 Navigator blows away Passport. Here are the results:

Navigator - 27 seconds to scroll from channel 1 to 1999

Passport - 2 minutes 47 seconds to scroll from channel 1 to 1999.

I think I posted before that Navigator offers hyper speed in the guide when scrolling channels. It's fast. Passport chugs through the guide one channel at a time.

Also when moving out a few days in the guide Passport slows the process down with the "loading data" prompt on the screen. Not so with Navigator. At least based on my experience of running the two boxes side by side. I think the entire guide is resident in the Navigator box but with Passport you only have a couple days resident in the box and have to pro actively load the entire guide by scrolling through the upcoming days for the data to show. I should note that my Navigator box is a SA8300HDC with 128 megs of ram.

In my case this affects series recordings. With Navigator scheduled series recordings show the entire upcoming week. With Passport only the next couple of days show as series scheduled recordings. Unless you scroll through the guide and load the entire week - then the entire week of series scheduled recordings show up. At least that's how my flavor of Passport handles it.

I believe this also affects how the search function works. In Navigator the entire week is searched because it is resident in the box as a default. With Passport it will only search what has been "loaded". If you don't pro actively load the entire guide the search function only goes out a couple days.

I think I did find one potential deal breaker though. And that is it looks like my Navigator box is dropping the esata connection to my external HDD. It is inconsistent at best which causes problems. Meaning if the esata drive is no longer seen by the Navigator box it will delete recordings on the local drive in order to make room for new recordings. Not good. Tough to complain to TWC on this though because TWC does not officially support esata drives. I'm running the Navigator box without the esata drive now and it has been rock solid (absent of some user issues I posted early on).

As far as putting "lipstick on a pig" that was previously directed at me from another poster. I can only report my experience. I think there is a lot at work when it relates to Navigator. There is more than one version - meaning one for OCAP boxes and one for non OCAP boxes. And within those subsets there are various versions of STBs. And various versions of Navigator. There is also distinct differences in cableco infrastructures. So for a poster who is having problems and then taking the liberty in assuming all users must be having the exact same problems may be is a bit misguided. Or self serving. Use your energy to complain to your local cableco.

For those that are having serious problems I would cancel service. Speak with my wallet. DVR service is not included in the Bill of Rights. If you are using a service that does not meet your needs either look for a better service or cancel. It's pretty simple actually. Cancellations will speak louder to a cableco than any other alternative.

Yeah but cancellations aren't an option for many people, especially for people like me who has a townhouse that don't allow dish's, which I wouldn't pay for all that equipment anyway, that is why cable is such a double edged sword, you don't pay for anything but the service...but at the same time when there is only one cable company to choose from and you are stuck with stuff like this...hell even Comcast wised up and is now offering alternatives like TIVO..TWC really needs to wake up.

Yeah but cancellations aren't an option for many people, especially for people like me who has a townhouse that don't allow dish's, which I wouldn't pay for all that equipment anyway, that is why cable is such a double edged sword, you don't pay for anything but the service...but at the same time when there is only one cable company to choose from and you are stuck with stuff like this...hell even Comcast wised up and is now offering alternatives like TIVO..TWC really needs to wake up.

True enough. By the way you mentioned that channel 199 was sluggish on your Navigator box. What is channel 199 being used for on the Navigator box? Is your version of Navigator using it for caller ID settings?

No, I couldn't find any settings for the caller ID on 199...it was just a diagnostic page...but man, it took about 90 seconds to pop up..I put in 199...waited waited waited, screen went black for 30 seconds, then it popped up.

First I have heard of channel 199 being used as a diagnostic page with Navigator.

Channel 199 is used in my Passport box as a channel for setting up caller ID.

Odd that Navigator is also using it as a diagnostic channel. When I press 199 on the remote for the Navigator box I get ????'s in the banner after about 3 seconds because the Navigator box cannot access that channel. This also happens for any other channel not offered.