From what I understand, this is going to replace SARA and Passport on the TWC boxes over the next 8 months. I do not have a confirmation on timetables or whether this will be a definite for everyone or dependent on individual franchise adoption.

You can go to the TWC Nebraska site and see it here:
http://www.timewarnercable.com/nebraska/products/cable/mdn/mdn_dvr.html

click on the "Answers On Demand" for a more detailed description of features. It looks like they basically address most all of the common TiVo functions that they had been missing [better guide, title search, recording history log, conflict management, Show list (like Now Showing?), series recording options (more developed than the single option SARA) like padding, etc...]

Wow, I'm impressed. My guess is that it won't be as slick and as quick as TiVo, but it addresses most all of the major functionality advantages that TiVo had over SARA.

If anyone has any updates on features or timetables, please post them here and I'll try to update this post.

Features:
New Recording Conflict Resolution
When a show doesn’t broadcast as planned, a red conflict icon will appear next to the program in the upcoming show list. If the program is in conflict with other recordings you’ve scheduled, a series of options will appear on-screen to help easily resolve the problem.

Record Log
Press the button on your remote. The Recording Log tells you why a show didn’t record or was deleted so you can manage your recording needs.

The Find Shows menu

* Press the button at access Find Shows
* Arrow left/right to highlight either TITLE, CATEGORY or RATING
* Arrow up/down to highlight your programming choice and press “Select”
* A new menu may appear with other options displayed horizontally across the bottom and a list displayed vertically
* Press “Select” on the desired programming

How to search for a program
* Already know the name of the show you want to watch? Just press twice to bring up the keyboard and spell the show name using the left, right, up and down arrows on your remote.
* Press “Select” to choose a highlighted letter.
* When title appears in the left column, use the left arrow key to switch from the keyboard to the title list, use up/down arrows to highlight your program. Press "Select” to either view, record, record series or set reminder.

Access Menu
Think of the newly designed Access Menu as your gateway to all that Digital Cable has to offer. Want to find what you want, when you want, with the least effort? The Access Menu is the first place to visit.

From this one handy menu you can access everything you need:
* Find Shows.
* Favorite Channels.
* DVR Show List.
* Answers On Demand.
* Program Guide.

With the Access Menu, you'll also be able to see exactly what’s on now in your favorite categories.

Free On Demand
Free On Demand categories all in one list. (Kids, Sports, Music, News, What’s New, Variety, Learning, Home & Leisure, Cutting Edge and Local).

Premium On Demand
A list of all Premium On Demand channels in one place.

Movies On Demand
A complete list of the latest movies you can order 24/7.

News & Weather Now
Currently airing News & Weather programs you can be taken directly to with the touch of a button.

Sports Now
Sports programs available to watch now.

Kids Now
One list of all currently airing Kids programs.

HDTV Now
A list of currently airing HDTV programs.

Click here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8243323&&#post8243323) to go to a post that compares Navigator to SARA. There are other posts there that are about Navigator, most are before the post I link to.

I am glad that a new thread was created. Thanks, jacksonian for creating the new thread.

Thanks Russ, I know I wasn't the first messenger on this, but it seemed like it had gotten swept under the rug and forgotten about. I'm hoping TWC really rolls with this and it's a hot topic.

According to my local TWC office plans are for all TWC regions to have Navigator by the second or not later than third quarter of next year.They are it seems trying to roll out Navigator at the same time Comcast is rolling out Tivo.Let the Navigator vs Tivo debate start.Seems both have a lot of simular features and a lot od different ones also.(Depends on what Tivo features Comcast loads in it's boxes)

I tried emailing my TWC Customer Service and recieved no answer. TWC, greensboro.

Mike, I have emailed Jack Stanley, the President of TWC Greensboro, and he actually emailed me back and asked about my dissatisfaction with the SARA SA8300. I'm waiting for his reply. One of their supervisors also called me and left a message to see if they could help. I'll post what I hear back.

Was able to get in the pdf on TWC Nebraska.Some more sweet navigator features told about.In addition to 3 fast forward speeds you can flash forward in fifteen minutes increments.A new way of putting favorite channels first so you do not have to scroll thru a bunch of channels you do not care aboutAlso a new slow motion button with new features that was not revealed in the PDF.A lot more was spoken about but pdf so grainy on my webtv was hard to read.Cannot wait for navigator was very impressed.

Was able to get in the pdf on TWC Nebraska.Some more sweet navigator features told about.In addition to 3 fast forward speeds you can flash forward in fifteen minutes increments.A new way of putting favorite channels first so you do not have to scroll thru a bunch of channels you do not care aboutAlso a new slow motion button with new features that was not revealed in the PDF.A lot more was spoken about but pdf so grainy on my webtv was hard to read.Cannot wait for navigator was very impressed.Here is a link to the pdf:

http://www.timewarnercable.com/MediaLibrary/4/49/Content%20Management/Products%20And%20Services/images/mystro/conversion_guide.pdf

It is grainy but I was able to zoom in to read it.

I'm hoping TWC really rolls with this and it's a hot topic.TWC more or less has to roll this out next year. Their new Navigator is written to run on OCAP and goes hand-and-hand with the FCC's requirement that they stop buying new boxes with built-in conditional access methods and start buying ones with CableCARD slots. This requirement was scheduled to come into force on 1 July 2005, but the MSOs lobbied for and were granted an extension to 1 July 2007, in order to let them properly complete the OCAP and Multi-Stream Bidrectional CableCARD (M-CARD) specs. (The emergent CableCARD-less Downloadable Conditional Access system would also work with OCAP). Using Single-Stream Unidirectional CableCARDs (S-CARDs), they'd lose the interactive guide and STB functions which require communication with the system; most importantly, Video On Demand, Impulse Pay-Per-View and the new Switched Digital Video scheme). There's also the huge advantage that people with new OCAP/M-CARD-or-DCAS equipment will be able to run their guide and use VOD, IPPV and SDV channels without an STB.

I suppose that it would be possible to run an M-CARD cognizant version of Passport or SARA on the new boxes as well, but use of the new Navigator also give them absolute feature control.
Was able to get in the pdf on TWC Nebraska.Some more sweet navigator features told about.In addition to 3 fast forward speeds you can flash forward in fifteen minutes increments.A new way of putting favorite channels first so you do not have to scroll thru a bunch of channels you do not care aboutAlso a new slow motion button with new features that was not revealed in the PDF.A lot more was spoken about but pdf so grainy on my webtv was hard to read.Cannot wait for navigator was very impressed.Many of the things that are highlighted in that guide as "new" features are already features of Passport Echo: to-the-next/previous-15-minute-mark skip and slow-motion to name a couple. In fact, the guide is extremely-Passport-esque (which was obviously modeled on the structure of TiVo's menus).

The features that are new to Passport include that list-favorite-channels first option, the "Enhanced TV Menu", on-screen Caller-ID and Caller-ID Log for cable digital phone users and the Recording Log (a TiVo-like feature to tell you why recordings weren't made or have been deleted that I have sorely missed).

Many of the things that are highlighted in that guide as "new" features are already features of Passport Echo
I know, it's killing me. The 2 other big markets in my state use Passport and I'm stuck with SARA. I could probably live with Passport. Here's hoping Navigator comes soon (or even better--CC2.0 and a TiVo Series 4!)

Here is a link to the pdf:

http://www.timewarnercable.com/MediaLibrary/4/49/Content%20Management/Products%20And%20Services/images/mystro/conversion_guide.pdf

It is grainy but I was able to zoom in to read it.
Looks really clean and clear to me!

Looks really clean and clear to me!I think that he was talking about what happens when you zoom into the tiny little screenshots to see the details.

D'oh! My bad. That's funny. Yes, the screen shots are grainy :D

Found an article from June 16 on the multichannel website. (http://www.multichannel.com/article/CA6342678.html?display=Top+Stories)

A few excerpts of interest:

"Through a deal with OpenTV Corp., Time Warner customers could wind up pulling up the names and numbers of telephone callers or a news clip while in the midst of watching a regular television show. The one-touch access to TV services will be made possible by OpenTV software that will be placed in 4 million Motorola Inc. digital set-top boxes in Time Warner households."

"OpenTV’s software will allow the cable operator to deploy its new Digital Navigator interactive program guide on the Motorola boxes. Time Warner will use the guide as a gateway to offer interactive content and services."


Now here's the really good part....(for those of us with SA boxes)

"Chief technology officer Mike LaJoie said Time Warner will also deploy Digital Navigator to set-tops from Scientific Atlanta Inc. — which are deployed in New York and on other major systems — later this year. "

Happy Happy Joy Joy!

Steve

D'oh! My bad. That's funny. Yes, the screen shots are grainy :DAlso, the first guy who complained about graininess was trying to read it on his WebTV, with a probably maximum resolution of 640x480--the pictures are probably a hopeless blur on that.

Wonder if it has the "biggest" Tivo feature I miss:

SEASON passes that don't record repeats

Of course, my TW office has the crappy SARA software that can't even handle daylight savings time. (the last two time changes, they've told us that the boxes/software can't handle it and we have to delete ALL our scheduled recordings and set them up again to work correctly).

Of course, this also assumes this fixes the "kick to live" bug in the SARA software as well.

Wonder if it has the "biggest" Tivo feature I miss:

SEASON passes that don't record repeats

Of course, my TW office has the crappy SARA software that can't even handle daylight savings time. (the last two time changes, they've told us that the boxes/software can't handle it and we have to delete ALL our scheduled recordings and set them up again to work correctly).

Of course, this also assumes this fixes the "kick to live" bug in the SARA software as well.Digital Navigator has Record "first run" episodes. SARA has that also, if the program guide has the "new" flag set. Some cable systems may have never updated their program guide with the "new" flag information. I expect Digital Navigator would not have the "kick to live" bug. There are still conditions in 1.88.x.x where you can be "kicked to live", but if you use the "Play from Beginning" option on a recording program you won't be "kicked to live."

The Passport system here in Charlotte, NC already has a Keyword search funtion in addition to a title search function. Keyword search allows you locate all programs that contain a particular keyword in either the title or program description, so for example if you were a wine enthusiast you could list all programs that either have the word, "wine" in the title or in the description. This is clearly a lot more powerful than the title search that only lists programs BEGINNING WITH whatever you type in.

All the information I have seen for the new Mystro Digital Navigator mention the title search but there is nothing about keyword search. If there is no keyword search then this is truly a step back. How do I find all movies starring my favorite actor or all shows about Italy?

TiVo, DirecTV and Dish Network all provide keyword search functionality. Please don't let us down Time Warner!

From whatI understand Navigator lets you search by keyword,title.theme and rateing.It has all the sub options also to let you narrow your search down.For example if you type in movies it will give you sub options of differnt movie types such as comedy,action,kids ect.After you select that it seems you have another sub option to choose movies or shows with the rateing of your choice such as pd,pg-14.ma-14 -r- ect.From what i have seen very deep search options.

Any word on external SATA drive support? I just got this working with Passport, and would hate to lose it when they convert to Navigator. I'm already accustomed to the additional space :)

Can we get a 30-second skip forward button please?

Can we get a 30-second skip forward button please?
Let's not leap into a wormhole here, this IS Time Warner! :D

Let's get the basics first! :D

Can we get a 30-second skip forward button please?I'm thinkin' probably not. This isn't TiVo or ReplayTV--you're not buying the unit and they have no motive to give you a tool to help you skip over the local advertisement that they insert. The next/previous-fifteen-minute-mark skip does skip ads, but it also skips all of the content; it's an aid for finding the place where you stopped watching.

TiVo's 30-second-skip was hidden and only accessible to savvy people using a "backdoor" operation to enable it. TiVo been working with the networks and advertiser to create a system for inserting static pop-up banner ads to appear while people are FF'ing or REW'ing through the normal ads.

You know, I've had TiVo for like 7 years and I've never used the 30 second skip backdoor. I actually don't mind FF'ing through them, sometimes I see an ad I want to stop and watch.

Wonder if anyone from Nebraska with Digital Navigator would be so kind to post and let the rest of us know your thoughts on Navigator.

Do you think that TWC will roll out Navigator on Moto boxses and to other markets that use the current iGuide?

Do you think that TWC will roll out Navigator on Moto boxses and to other markets that use the current iGuide?Yes, TWC will roll out Navigator to Motorola DVRs, see post # 15 earlier in the thread and the article it links to.

RussB-- given the transition in the Houston market from TWC to Comcast, do you know whether Navigator will come to the Houston marketplace? I have looked at both the Comcast and TWC (Houston) websites and don't see anything.

RussB-- given the transition in the Houston market from TWC to Comcast, do you know whether Navigator will come to the Houston marketplace? I have looked at both the Comcast and TWC (Houston) websites and don't see anything.I don't know one way or the other. I doubt if TWC would spend the time and money to get Navigator working in Houston only to have to remove it when Comcast takes over. I haven't seen any plans that Comcast has for Houston. I am interested in what DVRs they will offer, and whether they will offer a premium DVR with the TiVo software interface like they will in some of the other Comcast markets.

This is a little off topic but I saw where TWC coumbia SC added a patch to there sara software last night that added several new features.The playback while recording feture was added plus a fourth fast forward and rewind speed.Any one else in the Greensboro market know if we will be getting this patch (upgrade)?I feel like TWC greensboro is always the last to add any new features.Wish we now had Navigator or at the least passport.

"MDN - Mystro Digital Navigator - new Interactive Program Guide that will be available to all TWC Digital Equipment (SA & Pioneer) by the end of 2007. The reason Gastonia and Nebraska are getting this first is because they are Passport systems (Pioneer), so they can't get any of the features we have in SC (Start Over, ITV, ETC, SDV) until they upgrade to MDN. This is the one instance when SARA Divisions go last"

this was said by:
Diana Smith
Director of Marketing for Video Services
TWC South Carolina

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8464784#post8464784

The ONE instance? SARA has been dead last in everything since inception!

I just gave up on waiting and bought a TiVo S3. My local TWC said they have no plans of putting any HD channels on SDV (although that's not a guarantee).

The ONE instance? SARA has been dead last in everything since inception!

Everything? What about an active external drive connection? That's been active for 2 years or so!

:rolleyes:

So nice of you to visit, Dave! Although I'm not sure why in the world you'd come to this thread. Shouldn't you be sleeping with SARA?

Everything? What about an active external drive connection? That's been active for 2 years or so!

:rolleyes:
And what makes this an exclusive Passport thread? Since you've switched to TiVo, why are you attempting to hijack this thread and use it primarily as a vehicle to trash the 8300?

And what makes this an exclusive Passport thread? Since you've switched to TiVo, why are you attempting to hijack this thread and use it primarily as a vehicle to trash the 8300?
What are you smoking? I started this thread because I can't stand the 8300! Remember how you guys kept crying in the 8300 SARA thread? So I left it and started this.

I didn't hijack anything. And it never had anything to do with PASSPORT in the first place. And why did you quote yourself?

Maybe you should get some rest?

Oh, and yes, I just received my S3! But I'd still be glad to use Navigator on my other boxes instead of SARA.

What are you smoking? I started this thread because I can't stand the 8300! Remember how you guys kept crying in the 8300 SARA thread? So I left it and started this.

I didn't hijack anything. And it never had anything to do with PASSPORT in the first place. And why did you quote yourself?

Maybe you should get some rest?

You do have a couple of good points there (just returned from a tasting tour of wine country).

Yes it is YOUR thread (though you are still apparently trying to use it to trash the 8300 as you have done elsewhere).

Opps, I did not realize I had clicked on the wrong quote (wine effect I guess).

So sorry on both points - BUT, this thread did start out looking like it was an honest attempt to gather information about the TW Digital Navigator (so sorry that it isn't supposed to be that way).

You still did not answer the question: And what makes this an exclusive Passport thread? That was asked because you implied that SARA users should be elsewhere in your statement: Although I'm not sure why in the world you'd come to this thread. Shouldn't you be sleeping with SARA?

I don't claim ownership of the thread, but it's clear I wasn't hijacking anything. And I didn't start out to trash the 8300, but the statement that Diana from TWC made about SARA just made me laugh out loud. I put the SARA comment in there for you because you were one of the folks who was in the SA8300 SARA thread asking me to leave, correct?

So let's get back to Navigator.

It would be cool if we could find someone from Nebraska to tell us about it. I wish they could have rolled it out in an area where AVS had more readership. I don't recall seeing too many AVS'ers from Nebraska :)

This And I didn't start out to trash the 8300...doesn't square with this:I started this thread because I can't stand the 8300!But I do agree: So let's get back to Navigator.

Diana was just saying that in the TWC world, the SARA markets got things before the Passport markets. If you really read the post, she mentions things like Start Over, ITV, ETC, SDV, all of which have nothing to do with SARA specifically, they just happen to be available in SARA markets. All she was trying to do was explain why the 2 markets were getting Navigator first, not making any statement about SARA, Passport, or the 8300. Why anyone would jump on that to bash the 8300 in this Navigator thread is beyond me, at least other than just another cheap shot for no reason. In the first place, the dissatisfaction is with SARA, not the 8300. In the second place, Navigator will be running on the 8300, as will Tivo software at some point. Neither of these would be happening if TWC or Tivo had any doubts about the 8300 as a viable DVR platform.

But none of this, including the original post, really has anything to do with Navigator and how it works. I too would like to see someone from Nebraska post their experiences.

Wow, I can't believe I got both you guys to come over to this thread to apologize for SARA. Dave Hancock, it most certainly does square. I started this thread because I don't like the SARA 8300 and heard there might be something better coming, not to spend time talking about SARA.
And DoubleDAZ, I'm not sure why you'd want to hear about Navigator either, you guys are all content with SARA, aren't you? You don't want any of those silly TiVo features, do you?

Come on guys lets not trash anyone.We all want better software and Navigator looks to be it.At least TWC is ending the passport -sara debate by doing away with both and replaceing them with Navigator.In the end we will all have Navigator and we can all talk about one guide.Until then let's just get along.Remember both sara and passport will both soon be history.

Jacksonian,

I try to keep up with all IPG interfaces, including the new S3 thread, so I can submit my requests for features and test things on SARA. As part of our recent discussions I've already found that SARA now has a priority scheme to avoid 3-way conflicts.

At any rate, I tried to stay out of this fight between you and Dave, but I think you misunderstood Diana's post and wanted to set the record straight rather than let you gum up this thread too with 8300 bashing. Diana used to be very active in the SARA thread until folks started taking her posts out of context and started complaining to her about their problems that were not even remotely related to TWC. She even tried to intercede with other cableco's on some folks behalf, but all that did was lead to more bashing, etc., so now she sticks to the SC thread and that's been a big loss for the rest of us. Hopefully, she'll findthis thread and psot, but for some reason I doubt it. :(

I've also tried to find a TWC-Nebraska thread to see if we can get someone there to post their experience with Navigator here, but so far all I've found is the Omaha-Lincoln thread and that is Cox oriented.

CrazyWoody is absolutely correct that soon both SARA and Passport will be history on TWC systems and this thread is to discuss Navigator, not inject 8300/SARA/Passport bashing. I simply set the record straight regarding Diana's post, I didn't bash anyone or make any negative comments about Navigator. I'm as anxious as anyone to see how it works. Hopefully, I'll be able to test Tivo on the 8300 when it comes to Cox-Phoenix and it helps to know what to look for. The only way to do that is to keep up with other IPGs and Navigator shows a lot of promise, so here I am. I didn't post until I saw some misinformation that needed correcting, simple as that.

You guys are just too much. Crawling threads looking for anyone to say a bad word about SARA so you can jump in and call "bashing". Let's keep this to Navigator. But if something negative about SARA in comparison needs to be said, I'm gonna say it. And I'm so glad you corrected the "misinformation"--it was a JOKE/EXPRESSION/HYPERBOLE, you guys ever heard of those?

Oh, and DoubleD, why did you change your signature? The other was so much more appropriate.

Spoke to my brother i law in Raleigh today.He said a friend of his who works at TWC Raleigh.He said that Raleigh was gearing up to receive the Navigator software.New York is to receive it first,then TWC texas markets then Raleigh and Charlotte.Have no idea when us long suffering sara folks will get it.Just my gut feeling with no inside info is we might get it the secoand quarter of next year.Raleigh andCharlotte will be happy navigators while we wait.

Well, if that turns out to be true, I hope I'll be able to get some first-hand information then from my daughter in Fayetteville, since she's on the Raleigh system AFAIK.

I have two close friends in Charlotte, so I can go down and check it out when they get it.

Time Warner is looking for opinions on the Mystro Navigator development...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=733414

its really not all that cool. The best I can say is that it is pretty stable and seems equal speed it both HD and SD. Honestly it looks like commodore64 would compare to windows. I didn't get it on the SA8300HD dvr box but on the Pace HD box. Functionally its ok, but it really is displeasing to look at.

On the plus side, I posted my comments on their website and they actually called me to hear more about my comments. If they listen to me (yeah right) we'll get color coded shows and a customizable list of channels in the guide. But they did actually seem interested to hear my comments.

Cheers

crashdumy,
Thanks for the insight. Did you ever have SARA or Passport or a TiVo to compare it to?

crashdumy,
Thanks for the insight. Did you ever have SARA or Passport or a TiVo to compare it to?


I actually have two tw boxes. The other is a SA8300HD running Passport. Passport is definately cooler to look at. In fact the box they changed had SARA until last week. The HD dvr's osd is really polished. The old osd on the updated box was not so polished but still better looking than Navigator.

They seem so concerned about what people think, so I'm sure they'll polish the looks (hopefully not at the cost of speed). I cant' be the only one who thinks it looks old school.

crashdumy thanks for your post.Could you tell us about the recording options on Navigator.Also is manual recording still available.In closeing puting looks aside how wold you rate it to sara and passport since it seems you have both.Again thanks for your info.

crashdumy thanks for your post.Could you tell us about the recording options on Navigator.Also is manual recording still available.In closeing puting looks aside how wold you rate it to sara and passport since it seems you have both.Again thanks for your info.

I like the way it functions. Functionally it is up there with all of the other boxes I've had from TW (6 now I think). The path to acessing menus and programing is improved. Example: Hitting the A button brings you to the Acess menu. From there are now horizontal options on the bottom of the screen, similar to what you find in the on demand programing. They include Free on Demand, Premium n demand, sports now, news and weather now, HDTV now, and Home which includes: Settings, Movies on Demand, Wisconsin on Demand (where I live), and Find Shows. Find shows is the same as hitting the B button in the guide. Which is now improved. It is now kind of a combo of the other boxes I had. It offers a list of programs (alphabetical) or a keyboard search similar to my other box (passport Echo). There is now several ways to get to the same thing ie. acess menu, settings button. Most of the available settings are the same although it seems I can zoom or stretch any program, not just those that don't match my display.

I do have one beef though. It seems to load all program data each time. If you go to search you have to wait for it to load a whole list of every program before you can do anything (about 10 seconds). It seems to me that the other boxes kept a program list in memory and loaded when you went out 3 days. This one seems to load each time. From the normal program guide, looking at the current time, its not so bad.

Oh yeah. There is a sound leveling option now. Don't think it works perfectly but none of them do.

Unfortunately, they didn't update my DVR box. Just the normail HD converter. So I don't know what recording options there will be. When I talked to them on the phone I got the impression that they are starting with the non-dvr boxes, 1500 at a time, taking feedback and hopefully improving it.

Its hard to describe it well but keep the quesitons coming. I don't mind.

crashdumy,
We'll have a lot more questions when you get it on the DVR. I'm interested mostly in the functionality and user interface when it comes to recording and playback. But so far it sounds like an incremental improvement over your PASSPORT box, would that be a fair statement?

crashdumy,
We'll have a lot more questions when you get it on the DVR. I'm interested mostly in the functionality and user interface when it comes to recording and playback. But so far it sounds like an incremental improvement over your PASSPORT box, would that be a fair statement?Just curious, but what is it about what he said that makes you think that it's an incremental improvement over Passport?

crashdumy--you said that your Pace STB used to be running SARA while your DVR was running Passport Echo. Interesting. I didn't know that SARA ran on Pace boxes (though I'm not doubting it). I've also never heard of Passport and SARA being mixed on any system; how confusing for people like you who had both.

I like the way it functions. ...The path to acessing menus and programing is improved.
I guess this part, but I did specifically ask if it was a fair assessment to make sure I wasn't making an incorrect conclusion.

yeah I may be an idiot and typed too soon. Honestly I only had the Pace box for about a week before they changed in on me and its on the tv that I don't watch much. I was picturing a differenst splash screen than the 8300HD but now that I think more about it, it couldn't have been SARA just an older version of Passport. When did they add a keyboard search? The Pace box still had color customizable layout and the old program search. The new HDDVR has a keyboard search and one color.

I think that the Passport on the DVR is 2.5.066. Couldn't tell you for sure what was on the Pace.

I don't think that it is an improvement at all. Some of the functions are easier to get to. Like HDTV now shows you what is on in HD but I think that they all do that if you go to theme in the program guide. mostly the same features, accessed a different way. Basically it just assigned functions to the ABC buttons that can be used from any screen. It would be hard to make the DVR functions much better than the 8300 though. I've never used TIVO so maybe I don't know what I'm missing but if you can record only new episodes and choose how many to keep for how long I guess I can't think of what I would want besides that. I wouldn' t mind them organized better than the LIST that they give you now. Setting a program to record online would be cool. But I don't think they will go that far. COMMERCIAL SKIP - I don't see it happening, people who pay for advertising frown on that sort of thing - Maybe a 30 second skip though. All in all I thought that the 8300 recording options were miles ahead of the 8000 (which I traded for the 8300 about 2 months ago).

Basically if you like the way that you access your options now, then this navigator will probably just bother you. You'll have to get used to the layout and the ugly font and colors. If you use on demand alot its probably an improvement. I think I've used that twice is 5 years. What I do like is how they seem concerned what people think. This may be the best chance we'll have for a while to add features that you have always wanted. Find someone who has it (me if you want) and get them to offer feedback on the web. They may not be as interested in the feedback of those who don' t have the navigator yet. What would you like to see different? I thought this thread was pretty cool: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=733414

Well, I'm disappointed that it doesn't sound like Navigator is going to be any improvement over Passport. But I'm even more excited that I jumped ship and went with a TiVo S3. Guess it's time to buy a couple more and give all my TWC boxes back.

Sounds lke Crashdumy is compareing Navigator to Passport.For us who do not go the Tivo route (sara users)it will beam us miles ahead of what we have now.With SA sara out of the picture and TWC Diana heading Mystro Navigator I can picture more frequent upgades and the customers being listened to.Think i will ride it out til I get Navigator then make my final decision.We may be suprised at the final product or not.Been with sara this long think i will give Navigator a chance.

PS-We have yet to see what Navigator offers in DVR recording options.Hopefully for once TWC may supprise us.After all the dvr is what we all want beside good search features.I can take a less snazzy interface if the fetures are all there.

Did anyone ever find out what Navigator is based on? Is it a total rewrite of DVR code by TWC or is it a separate overlay that needs Passport or something in the background?

there is no way the navigator could look any more old school than SARA. if navigator is a commodore64 then that would make SARA a typewriter. or a pen.

there is no way the navigator could look any more old school than SARA. if navigator is a commodore64 then that would make SARA a typewriter. or a pen.
AMEN

Did anyone ever find out what Navigator is based on? Is it a total rewrite of DVR code by TWC or is it a separate overlay that needs Passport or something in the background?Both Passport and SARA are applications built on top of an RTOS called PowerTV and a set of middleware APIs developed by SA (SA acquired the group who wrote PowerTV). In a similar fashion, though they all used to have vendor-unique GUIs and capabilities, nearly all mobile phones are built on top of Qualcomm's REX RTOS and a set of middleware APIs, also from Qualcomm.

I'm sure that the new Navigator is built on top of the same base. There is an OCAP version of it which must be completely independent of that environment, since it won't be present on the arbitrary 3rd party boxes and televisions onto which it will be downloadable.

Both Passport and SARA are applications built on top of an RTOS called PowerTV and a set of middleware APIs developed by SA (SA acquired the group who wrote PowerTV). In a similar fashion, though they all used to have vendor-unique GUIs and capabilities, nearly all mobile phones are built on top of Qualcomm's REX RTOS and a set of middleware APIs, also from Qualcomm.

I'm sure that the new Navigator is built on top of the same base. There is an OCAP version of it which must be completely independent of that environment, since it won't be present on the arbitrary 3rd party boxes and televisions onto which it will be downloadable.
According to TWC and several other sites such as Multi Media the Navigator software is all TWC written And that sara and passport are being stripped from the boxes.

According to TWC and several other sites such as Multi Media the Navigator software is all TWC written And that sara and passport are being stripped from the boxes.Again, Power TV is not Passport or SARA. neither of which are operating systems. Believe me, they didn't start writing the new Navigator from scratch on the bare metal--it would have been horrendously and unnecessarily expensive and time consuming. There was some sort of RTOS (Realtime Operating System) used.

There is an OCAP version of the Navigator, which can be downloaded into CableCARD V2 devices and run directly on them. TWC and Samsung demonstrated it running on an unreleased Samsumg television w/o any STB (Samsung's television line with this capability is due out this Fall). That version doesn't require Power TV--it just needs the OCAP execution environment, which is a Java VM profile.

There's an article about TWC's Digital Navigator here (http://www.cable360.net/ct/strategy/emergingtech/18505.html). Though it's primarily about porting it to OpenTV's platform for support of Motorola boxes, it confirms my assertion that the Navigator also runs on top of PowerTV on SA boxes:
LaJoie said TWC is able to get its digital navigator onto S-A set-top boxes by writing in C (code) directly to the Power TV operating system, but the Motorola platform has a different operating system.
...
LaJoie said the OpenTV deal gives TWC three different layers for its set-top box client applications platform: the TWC digital navigator written in C for the Power TV operating system that will run on the S-A boxes, the porting of the digital navigator to OpenTV's middleware that will run on top of the Motorola boxes, and the OCAP platform for advanced set-top boxes by S-A, Motorola and other vendors.

Mike,

I see what you are getting at, thanks for aswering my question. I saw a comment from someone else that thought Navigator ran on top of Passport and that was why I asked. I assumed it used PowerTV (though I had forgotten that'swhat it was) and figured it was being/has been ported for OCAP. Do you know if TWC aquired a company that does this sort of development or did they actually put together an in-house department? The reason I ask is because I think that will give them an edge up on controlling software releases system-wide unlike Cox and other, including TWC now, who allow more local decisions and that means everyone is not always on the same page. I see that as a major advantage for Tivo. They release an upgrade and everyone gets it at the same time. Cable is just such a neanderthal business model in almost all respects.

Do you know if TWC aquired a company that does this sort of development or did they actually put together an in-house department?They have an in-house department called the Interactive Personal Video Group who have done this development. They've commissioned some of the work to be done outside, as in the arrangement with OpenTV to port the thing to Moto STBs in the article I linked to in my last post.

Do you really think that TWC will force simultaneous updates on all of their SOs?

I would hope that at some point they would, at least after suffucient beta-testing and OCAP implementation. I'm not an OCAP expert by any means, but I have high hopes that it, and whatever else is currently being worked, will standardize cableco's, at least within a given company (Cox, TWC, etc.). One of the biggest problems I see with SARA, and Passport to a lesser degree, is the number of different releases being used and how imcompatible they all are across all markets.

A while back i read an article (foget the mag)at my dentist office that contained a interview with the head of TWC.To paraphrase what i remember he stated a inhouse group had written the Mystro software.The purpose was to give TWC complete control of their guide and software.TWC wants one software and guide over their entire cable system.Mystro Digital Navigator is it.When it's fully deployed if you live in Hawaii,New York or North Carolina you will have the same uniform TWC guide and dvr software.TWC wants full control and not have to rely on outside guides.SARA and PAsSPORT are being stripped out in favor of Navigator.They are trying to get it deployed as Cox and Comcast deploy TIVO.

Hey guys,

I have TWC in Lincoln, NE, and have witnessed the gradual rollout of the new software. They have yet to update the DVR boxes, but have updated the regular digital cable boxes in most places. Generally speaking, there's been a lot of unhappiness. When scrolling through the guide, all the shows disappear from the list (leaving a blank grid until you stop scrolling). This happens even when scrolling one cell at a time. Channel changes are slow. The interface is ugly and clunky. It seems to register commands from the remote multiple times (i.e. hit channel up, box changes three channels quickly). All in all, it's very buggy and everyone I know who has it hates it. If that's any indication, the DVR software will be even worse. It may be time to buy the HD Tivo.

My guess is that they won't roll out the DVR software till they take care of the issues that you point out. But I would also have expected better alpha testing before they rolled ANY of this out to regular customers.

Please keep us posted.

BUMMER i had hoped for more.

Are their any Motorola STB's with TW Navigator already on them? if so how do they run? is it slower than i-Guide?

Hey guys,

I have TWC in Lincoln, NE, and have witnessed the gradual rollout of the new software. They have yet to update the DVR boxes, but have updated the regular digital cable boxes in most places. Generally speaking, there's been a lot of unhappiness. When scrolling through the guide, all the shows disappear from the list (leaving a blank grid until you stop scrolling). This happens even when scrolling one cell at a time. Channel changes are slow. The interface is ugly and clunky. It seems to register commands from the remote multiple times (i.e. hit channel up, box changes three channels quickly). All in all, it's very buggy and everyone I know who has it hates it. If that's any indication, the DVR software will be even worse. It may be time to buy the HD Tivo.

Are they using Scientific Atlanta boxes or Motorola's?

Are they using Scientific Atlanta boxes or Motorola's?

I am also in Lincoln and they just updated the DVR boxes. They are SA boxes.

All the problems the other Lincoln poster listed are valid. Also in the guide there is no info for whether or not the program is new or a repeat like it had previously. I set up some series passes last night and all but one was gone this morning (might be my fault though). I also can not get a Dolby Digital feed to my receiver like I was able to previously with my HD channels. No one I know likes it either it looks terrible compared to what we had previously.

No one I know likes it either it looks terrible compared to what we had previously.That's the price of being at the "bleeding edge." From what I've read, you have an extremely early (I'd call it a "concept model") of this software. At least, I'm sure you guys will be the first to get a more full-blown version.

From Lincoln NE also, I received the HD DVR update.... And hate it! I agree with everything Brad and Dorny say, plus my list.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=764397

I also can not get a Dolby Digital feed to my receiver like I was able to previously with my HD channels. I haven't read the backstory on this but I do know there is a Dolby Digital issue with the SA8300 and some HDTV sets (e.g. the Sharp Aquos) when fed via HDMI.

Since the HDTV says it can't receive DD5.1 via HDMI, the SA8300 shuts down all audio outputs to standard PCM 2-channel stereo. This means on both the HDMI audio path as well as the optical audio path to your receiver.

The solution (if this is your problem) is to substitute an HDMI-to-DVI cable for connecting the SA8300 to your HDTV (if your set has a DVI input), or get two HDMI-to-HDMI cables and join them with a pair of HDMI-to-DVI adapters (if your set does not have a DVI input but only an HDMI input), so as to eliminate the audio part of the HDMI signal path. That way the SA8300 is not bothered by the fact that the HDTV cannot accept DD5.1 over HDMI and will simply do whatever you tell it.

And of course you should then "force" Dolby Digital audio output in the General Settings (press Settings twice to get there), navigating to "AUDIO: DIGITAL OUT" and then moving over to select "DOLBY DIGITAL".

This combination of steps will cause Dolby Digital out to your receiver (which is obviously what you are listening to, not the speakers in the set) and still provide digital video (HDMI-to-DVI or HDMI-to-DVI-to-HDMI) to the HDTV. The downside, of course, is that there will now be NO audio delivered to your HDTV for its speakers, but I don't think you're concerned about that.

If this is your problem, then this is your solution. Just a quirk of the SA8300 and some HDTV sets.

P.S. - one other "solution" is to use component video connections from SA8300 to HDTV instead of HDMI. But depending on your set and your desires, this may be a non-starter.

I haven't read the backstory on this but I do know there is a Dolby Digital issue with the SA8300 and some HDTV sets (e.g. the Sharp Aquos) when fed via HDMI.

Since the HDTV says it can't receive DD5.1 via HDMI, the SA8300 shuts down all audio outputs to standard PCM 2-channel stereo. This means on both the HDMI audio path as well as the optical audio path to your receiver.

The solution (if this is your problem) is to substitute an HDMI-to-DVI cable for connecting the SA8300 to your HDTV (if your set has a DVI input), or get two HDMI-to-HDMI cables and join them with a pair of HDMI-to-DVI adapters (if your set does not have a DVI input but only an HDMI input), so as to eliminate the audio part of the HDMI signal path. That way the SA8300 is not bothered by the fact that the HDTV cannot accept DD5.1 over HDMI and will simply do whatever you tell it.

And of course you should then "force" Dolby Digital audio output in the General Settings (press Settings twice to get there), navigating to "AUDIO: DIGITAL OUT" and then moving over to select "DOLBY DIGITAL".

This combination of steps will cause Dolby Digital out to your receiver (which is obviously what you are listening to, not the speakers in the set) and still provide digital video (HDMI-to-DVI or HDMI-to-DVI-to-HDMI) to the HDTV. The downside, of course, is that there will now be NO audio delivered to your HDTV for its speakers, but I don't think you're concerned about that.

If this is your problem, then this is your solution. Just a quirk of the SA8300 and some HDTV sets.

P.S. - one other "solution" is to use component video connections from SA8300 to HDTV instead of HDMI. But depending on your set and your desires, this may be a non-starter.

Thanks I may try this. I was going to try it through component just to see if DD 5.1 works but I am fairly certain it would and that this is just an issue with the use of an HDMI cable. With the old software I was able to force the 5.1 audio to my receiver while using HDMI to my set. In the new menus it shows this as an option but it doesn't work. The old software also allowed me to set what resolution I sent to my set via HDMI the new software doesn't let me via HDMI but will via component. That isn't a big issue as my set seems to react better to resolution changes with this software than it did with the old software (not sure why that would be). It still is a hassle when trying to surf channels going from some 720p to 1080i to 480p (on the SD channels) and having that half second of blue screen.

When I had a TW guy out a couple months ago he said that they don't recommend to people to use HDMI because of all the issues they have with them and their boxes.

Thanks I may try this. I was going to try it through component just to see if DD 5.1 works but I am fairly certain it would and that this is just an issue with the use of an HDMI cable. Yes, using component cables is the same as using an HDMI-to-DVI cable, or eliminating the audio portion of the HDMI signal using the pair of HDMI cables and pair of DVI-to-HDMI adapters solution I described above. As long as you have no audio aspect for the SA8300 to worry about (as you don't, with any of the above approaches) there's no reason for the SA8300 to shut down its DD5.1 delivery thinking that the receiving device at the other end of the audio cable (i.e. the HDMI cable) cannot receive it.

So yes, using component cables is yet another solution, although depending on your HDTV this might be undesirable from a video quality perspective.


With the old software I was able to force the 5.1 audio to my receiver while using HDMI to my set. In the new menus it shows this as an option but it doesn't work. The old software also allowed me to set what resolution I sent to my set via HDMI the new software doesn't let me via HDMI but will via component.Is this true? I don't have an SA8300 but I'm quite familiar with it as I've helped several friends and family members who have it. I thought there was a setup option dealing with video sent out by the SA8300, and I can't imagine they would have tampered with it.

You got into General Settings (press Settings button twice) and navigate to "SET: PICTURE FORMAT". Then you move the cursor right, and then navigate to the "PASS-THROUGH" or "AUTO-DVI" setting. This causes the SA8300 to send out resolution which matches that of the source program.

Also, you should have initially gone through the basic "VIDEO SETUP WIZARD" for the SA8300. With power off on the SA8300 but power on for your HDTV, simultaneously press the INFO and GUIDE buttons on the front of the box. The VIDEO SETUP WIZARD will appear on your HDTV screen. It's pretty intuitive so just follow its instructions. Essentially you're asked to confirm that your HDTV can or cannot receive each of the resolutions the SA8300 is capable of putting out. If you say YES, and a program is received in that format, and you have PASS-THROUGH specified (as described above), the show will be passed through in exactly the same resolution as it arrived in. No up or down convert.

Depending on how you feel about side bars for 4:3 content (personally, I WANT them so them that the 4:3 picture is proper proportioned and people look like people) you should experiment with how 4:3 content displays on your HDTV when you tell the SA8300's SETUP WIZARD that the set can or cannot accept 480p and 480i (standard and wide). If you say NO to those questions the picture displayed will be upconverted (to 720p, probably) and presented with sidebars (i.e. with proper aspect ratio, no zoom or stretch).

Don't listen to the technician who tells you not to use HDMI.

You got into General Settings (press Settings button twice) and navigate to "SET: PICTURE FORMAT". Then you move the cursor right, and then navigate to the "PASS-THROUGH" or "AUTO-DVI" setting. This causes the SA8300 to send out resolution which matches that of the source program.

Also, you should have initially gone through the basic "VIDEO SETUP WIZARD" for the SA8300. With power off on the SA8300 but power on for your HDTV, simultaneously press the INFO and GUIDE buttons on the front of the box. The VIDEO SETUP WIZARD will appear on your HDTV screen. It's pretty intuitive so just follow its instructions. Essentially you're asked to confirm that your HDTV can or cannot receive each of the resolutions the SA8300 is capable of putting out. If you say YES, and a program is received in that format, and you have PASS-THROUGH specified (as described above), the show will be passed through in exactly the same resolution as it arrived in. No up or down convert.

Depending on how you feel about side bars for 4:3 content (personally, I WANT them so them that the 4:3 picture is proper proportioned and people look like people) you should experiment with how 4:3 content displays on your HDTV when you tell the SA8300's SETUP WIZARD that the set can or cannot accept 480p and 480i (standard and wide). If you say NO to those questions the picture displayed will be upconverted (to 720p, probably) and presented with sidebars (i.e. with proper aspect ratio, no zoom or stretch).

Don't listen to the technician who tells you not to use HDMI.

Tried this and it doesn't work. I don't know if it did work before with the old software (the INFO and GUIDE trick). With the old software I would just tell it that my set would only accept 720p in the settings and everything would be converted to that (HD and SD channels). The SD channels wouldn't be stretched or anything like that. I have no such options now with the new Navigator software and it specifically says in the settings under the output resolution tab "This setting CANNOT be modified when using a DVI or HDMI connection"

As for the HDMI cable the TW guy said as much about the it when he was out here. The only reason they didn't recommend it was that some sets have issues with the HDCP and that they were answering too many service calls for people that didn't know how to use the cable properly. Not that for instance he didn't like it, but more some of the people trying to use it.

Tried this and it doesn't work. I don't know if it did work before with the old software (the INFO and GUIDE trick). With the old software I would just tell it that my set would only accept 720p in the settings and everything would be converted to that (HD and SD channels). The SD channels wouldn't be stretched or anything like that. I have no such options now with the new Navigator software and it specifically says in the settings under the output resolution tab "This setting CANNOT be modified when using a DVI or HDMI connectionI'm now reading your "the new Navigator software" and realizing you're probably talking about VERY NEW software, and not the old SARA software I was thinking had simply had an upgrade sent out to your SA8300. Apparently, I misunderstood.

So, if they've eliminated (1) the VIDEO SETUP WIZARD triggered by the INFO+GUIDE buttons when the box is powered off, and also (2) the ability to force specific output resolutions or pass-through all resolutions, independent of whether you use component video or HDMI connections, then I too would be disappointed. But sorry, I can't help you. No help from TWC? At least you should be able to complain and send your problem description somewhere or talk to someone higher up in TWC Regional or someplace.

Fortunately, I am in a former Comcast area in LA and have a Moto 6412-II DVR which is not being replaced. However within the next year I'm sure TWC will push out a version of Navigator for the Moto boxes as well, and then we can both cry together (unless they address the loss of functionality you're describing in a later release).

They just made the change over to the new Mystro Navigator here in Lincoln. I must say the navigator is lacking in many ways.

1st the interface more than just "old school" it's downright prehistoric! My god I have a HD media projector in my living room and its god awful to look at the new menu display.

2nd Even worse than the cosmetic look of the "New Navigator", is the functionality, I fail to see any improvements, and the keyword search is laughable! With the old passport I could search by keyword, including actor, title, genre... etc. Now (if it even loads) the new search feature gives you no other search options but a general search.

3rd Fast Forward functionality is horrible! With the old passport system, when you would fast-forward (at the fastest setting) through commercials it had a nifty feature and would back up a few seconds corresponding to human delayed reaction. Which meant as soon as you saw the program was on you stop fast forwarding and it would back up so that you didn’t miss a thing? With the new POS navigator, if you use the (times 3) fast forward be prepared to always have to rewind manually because it starts playing at the point at which you stop.

4th Manual Recording functionality has failed every single time! Again with the old passport system all one had to do is press the rec button and it would convert all buffered video to the dvr and also record until the program was over. Our wonderful new Navigator can't handle this simple task. Every time I have attempted to do this it will convert the last 10 min of video to the dvr and completely fail to record the rest of the show.

All in all I am confused and disgusted that TWC decided to take this route. I have debated the switch to satellite for a while, but I think my decision has been made for me now!

Just to chime back in...

I was never, ever going to spend $800 on a TiVo Series 3. That was way too much money.

Then TWC Nebraska (Lincoln) updated my SA8300 from Passport to Navigator.

I now own a TiVo Series 3.

Enough said.

Another from Nebraska. We received the update yesterday, with a SA DVR box. I can't say much more than sprwelch, who outlined all the gripes I have. I'm simply disgusted at everything: the interface, the "features" and "improvements." I realize that I might have been lucky, having Passport, but why in the world would Time Warner think this new system is anywhere approaching better (or even equal) to the old system?

Ugly, awkward, horrible. All of these words describe the terrible-ness Time Warner has bestowed upon my household.

I recently called Time Warner and was immediately greeted with some great one-liners, although I can't fault the rep I talked to. He sounded like he had talked to the entire state of Nebraska, all of them complaining and wanting their old, functional, not-circa-1998 guide back. Apparently, Navigator is "taking a step backward to take two forward" and "numerous updates are planned in the upcoming weeks." Nearly every complaint I voiced was met with "Yea, a lot of customers are saying the same thing" and "I know exactly what you're talking about."

While I'm upset with the new system, two things reassure me: 1) Time Warner actually appears to care what their customers think and 2) I'm a [finals] week away from switching my main television to an HTPC powered by MediaPortal. It can't come soon enough!

I will have to agree with everyone. This seems to be several steps back. I was over at my friend’s here in KC who is an employee of TWC. He got the NEW Navigator last week. He lost all shows stored on his 8300HD. KC is on the track to launch to customers mid January 07. I can only say I hope, I am one of the few that it fails to load on. I love Passport and all the advance features it has over Navigator. I only had about an hour of poking around but things I did notice, have all been touched in previous posts. The following were the most disappointing features I will really miss. I hope everyone keeps calling and voicing their views of something I would only compare to, is getting an IBM XT for X-Mas with a NEW and Advanced 6 MHz 286 and a CGA monitor to run my MS Pac Man games with the keyboard commands. Lets have a retro evening tonight.

1. Colors are horrid. Blue on Blue cursor. WOW back to the days 16 color of CGA.

2. The auto jump back feature when FF through commercials - GONE.

3. Can't re-prioritize my DVR series recording. Last show added is now at the top of the list, they say to move shows back to the top you must delete and add them back. So if you really want to make sure Survivor records or any of your favorite shows, make sure you are home. We all know that we add all our most important show to the series manager 1st and then add the other at later dates. But 1st in is last out, is the TWC inventory plan. I guess that explains why Mystro or New “Navigator” was really a program from back in 1998-2000 that never got off the ground, and now we give it a new name and the “IT’s NEW and Advanced” spin in 2007.

4. Navigator looks bad on standard TV but, wait till you see it on HDTV. I only have a 34” HD set; I bet on a 60” the pixels are large enough to play Twister on. Where did I put my lime green leisure suit?

5. Oh, did I tell you how slow the guide and search features load. I guess they don’t use Road Runners bandwidth to get the data to the box. It looks like the guide has to load from the server every time you press the guide button and pressing the B button to use the advance search features will black out the preview box until the search application loads. Oh the days of loading data from a floppy disk bring back fond memories.

6. Select a show to delete, hope you really wanted too. As the confirmation dialog box, is …you guessed it. GONE, just like the show you just deleted.

I am sure all this is a bean counter move as it will save TWC from paying for Passport and Sara upgrades. But when they start seeing customers leave to Dish and other video providers, the bean counters will have to eat crow. ONLY, once video customers leave you have to give them a reason to come back, that usually means steep rate cuts.

So if you come home one day and find you have this Blue/Blue/White guide on you screen. Kiss your saved show good bye and don’t worry. You will learn all the new features in no time, because there aren’t many. I wonder if the next step is start sending you a paper copy of the programming.

To be fair I will say that I didn't lose any of my previously saved shows. Maybe I was lucky I don't know. Otherwise the rest of this looks about the same.

Time Warner Columbus, Ohio is starting their Navigator rollout for customers in early January.

...The solution (if this is your problem) is to ... or get two HDMI-to-HDMI cables and join them with a pair of HDMI-to-DVI adapters (if your set does not have a DVI input but only an HDMI input), so as to eliminate the audio part of the HDMI signal path. That way the SA8300 is not bothered by the fact that the HDTV cannot accept DD5.1 over HDMI and will simply do whatever you tell it...Late response I know, but have you tested this? I thought that the HDMI and DVI interfaces use different physical connectors but the same signal pins with different protocols, i.e. the HDMI source signal will proceed [barring physical connection issues] unmolested across the DVI adapter(s) to a HDMI [sink] device, where the HDMI source will only [negotiate down] to DVI if the [sink] device only uses the DVI protocols (my expectation for a physical DVI input on a device which also has an HDMI input).

DVI Pinout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Visual_Interface)
HDMI Pinout (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Definition_Multimedia_Interface)

v/r,
C-F <-- still bouncing about in an RV and does not get much AVS time...

Late response I know, but have you tested this?Well no, to be honest, I have not tested this myself because I don't have the problem since I don't use HDMI to connect my 6412 DVR to my 34XBR960.

However, I know for a fact (because I have done this on a friend's set) that you certainly can connect the HDMI output of a SA8300 DVR to the DVI input of a Sharp Aquos (HDMI-to-DVI cable) which eliminates all audio going to the set and allows the SA8300 to deliver DD5.1 out its optical cable to the external audio receiver. This was most definitely not happening when using an HDMI-to-HDMI cable when the set told the SA8300 it could not handle DD5.1 over HDMI.

I simply concluded that you could use the pair of cables and adapters as I suggested initially to accomplish the same thing (if the set does not have a DVI connector), resulting again in just video being delivered to the set via its HDMI connector since the DVI junction eliminates all audio over the path. You're left with just video. The HDMI connector can accept an HDMI connection with zero audio on it, hence my conclusion. I can't see why this wouldn't work.

But no... I have not actually tried it personally.

OK, thanks. I was just checking because I was holding to that thought as well -- as a pre-planned work-around for upgrading to an HDMI set. (Before the never-ending RV interlude made most of my plans OBE).

The fact that the pinouts have the similar number and type of TMDS Data pins led me to believe [or someone may have pointed out to me] that that the adapters had no logic (simple physical adapters) and the HDMI signal would just continue merrily across the adapter to an HDMI input. HDMI pins 13 (CEC), 15 (SCL), 16 (SDA), 17 (DDC/CEC Ground) were the ones that I hoped might have [driven the HDMI drop to DVI].

The only examples that I could find with it working were [as in your friend's case] where it went to an actual DVI input. I could never conclusively find an example that proved or disproved if the HDMI-DVI_adapter-HDMI would always drop to DVI, or if that particular DVI input only [spoke] DVI.

v/r,
C-F

Another Lincoln, Nebraska victim of the new TWC software here. I purchased a 20 hour Tivo (series 1) and put a lifetime sub on it way "back in the day." When I needed an HD box I picked up one of the TWC HD DVRs with Passport. Mostly it sucked compared to Tivo but now that we have the blue abortion I appreciate just how nice Passport was. Supposedly they switched because the government is requiring that they have an "open system" for their cable software so that other companies can make cable boxes that work with TWC.

Regardless of the reason I find it amazing that I'm paying more and more every month on my cable bill while at the same time getting crappier and crappier performance out of their hardware. There is no way I'm going to fork out the cash for a Tivo S3 AND still pay their monthly fee so I guess I'll hold out and see how CableCard works with the MCE built into Vista.

There a lot of changes coming in cable. Unfortunately, you guys in Nebraska are really at the Bleeding Edge with the Navigator development. I would that you will see many improvements taking place over time (hopefully, short time).

One of the changes that will be coming is an increased use of Switched Digital Video. CableCard (at least the current one way implementation) will not work for that. I would avoid making any major investments in anything that depended on CableCard.

[QUOTE=BigMatt]...now that we have the blue abortion...QUOTE]

haha ha nice. can we get the thread title changed to match this new name. much catchier than navigator.

BTW Comcast has signed up with TIVO to handle their DVR function, does anyone know it they every launch the product?I could be wrong, but I'm under the impression Tivo software will be an option, probably at a slightly higher monthly cost. Anyone know for sure?

I could be wrong, but I'm under the impression Tivo software will be an option, probably at a slightly higher monthly cost. Anyone know for sure?That is correct. The TiVo software for Motorola DVRs on the Comcast Cable systems has not been released. Click here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9224628&&#post9224628) for more info on when it might be released.

FYI,

WHarrel over on the Explorer 8300HD w/SATA thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9279739&&#post9279739) is reporting success in hooking up a fresh external drive on Navigator/Mystro. There is of course still the question of long term reliability, and whether previous SATA/Passport content will be preserved, but this is a good sign.

Can someone with Navigator post some hi-res photos of the interface so we can see what y'all are talking about? As a SARA user I can't imagine the interface being *more* ugly!

Also - for those coming from Passport - on Sara we use the 'instant replay' button to stop a fast forward through commercials to mimic the 'human reaction time' feature of Tivo/Passport - you might give that a try.

xnappo

You should be able to include links now. You have to make 5 posts before you can include a link.

There are screen examples on Time Warner Cable San Diego and Nebraska sites. Google both these and you can sample the screen and read the explaination why they are forcing this junk on us. But it really boils down to money, they don't have to pay Aptiv for Passport software.


Those pictures are tiny, and don't show a lot of what people are complaining about - the on screen display while fast forwarding, the actual guide etc. It would be nice if someone could take some pics and put the up on Flickr or something.

xnappo

The ugly we all are talking about is what I think all you SARA users already see. Since from what I gather, Navigator was built on SARA as this is SA's guide. So if you have SARA you already know what we Passport users call ugly. I have not had any luck putting in links on here. If someone can tell me how to do that I put in links to these sites.

There are screen examples on Time Warner Cable San Diego and Nebraska sites. Google both these and you can sample the screen and read the explaination why they are forcing this junk on us. But it really boils down to money, they don't have to pay Aptiv for Passport software.

They say that we will get more features in the future, like shopping from your TV, ordering a pizza, checking your Ebay bids. But don't get me wrong, but I thought that was what they sell Roadrunner for. I would rather have a guide that at least works as well as the one they are replacing, not turn back the time so I can check Ebay on my TV. These should be additional features not replace functional features we already have.

Navigator is slow because it is fat and hogs all the memory on the cable box. Remember some of these boxes are almost 10 years old and Navigator has to work on them as well as your new 8300HD DVR. Aptiv has made Passport trim and fast on even these old boxes. But that is what they do, they write software and have been doing it for years.

SARA users may see improvements. As I gather it is really clunky too. I have not seen SARA except for screen shots on other Divisions sites.


I'm a SARA user/sufferer. Have been for about 1.25 years now. Hasn't been a terrific experience, to say the least.

What I see on those pages has a faint resemblance to SARA, particularly the "guide". There do seem to be some advancements over SARA :

- Obviously, the graphics are light years ahead of SARA's Fisher-Price GUI.
- You can use a "Ouija board" type input to select the name of a show.
- It maintains a proper listing of recordings that recorded, or didn't record (and why).
- Appears to be more configurable for the user.

I recognize that the Navigator is a significant step backwards for folks who are used to the Passport software. However, please don't try to lump yourselves in with those of us who are subjected to SARA on a daily basis. We have enough problems in dealing with that SARA POS, that we have to hear your whining. :)

What Paul said. You PASSPORT guys please try to remember, we know Navigator is a leap backwards for you, but it's still not as bad as SARA that we suffered with! :D

Now you guys really feel sorry for us, huh? You thought we were exagerrating. :)

If they strip Passport from my DVRs and replace it with Navigator, it may be time to buy a Tivo Series 3 and trade in my SA8300HDs for a couple of Cablecards :D

I did the math, and aside from the purchase price of the Tivo box i'd be saving about $25 a month on my TWC bill and it would take about 3 years to break even. After that, i'd be money ahead.

Those small 'screenshots' shown here, http://www.timewarnercable.com/sandiego/products/cable/navigatorintro.html, don't look that bad. I had Passport and not SARA, by the way. The one shown here, http://www.timewarnercable.com/sandiego/products/cable/navigator.html, looks kinda cheesy though with the color-coding in the guide.

If they strip Passport from my DVRs and replace it with Navigator, it may be time to buy a Tivo Series 3 and trade in my SA8300HDs for a couple of Cablecards :D



Not if my understanding of the technology is accurate and you live in an area where TWC plans to deploy Switched Digital Video ("SDV"). One of TW's stated rationales for implementing Navigator is the inability of Passport (but not SARA) to support SDV. SDV, however, will not work with the current generation of Cablecards. Will a Tivo bought today accept a future generation of Cablecards that supports SDV?

Trust me Navigator is light years ahead of Sara.We with Sara look forward to Navigator.Wish we all had passport but not to be.You would love Navigator if you had to live with Sara the last 4 years.Trust e Navigator coud never be as frustrating as Sara.If you Pasport users saw the Sara search options you would cry for us.Manual recording never worked as it should.When one glitch was fixd another popped up.In Geensbor we are on Sara 1.87.24 and never ad first run til last year.Guess we will never see the Sara 1.88 enhancements.Anyone have any idea when Sara users will get Navigator.So passport folks be glad for what you had morn what your loseing.Sara folks just gitty at loseing Sara.

Oe last thing Passport folks.At least TWC did not switch everone to SARA.Navigator may not be Passport but if you had lived with SARA fireworks instead of moans would be in the air.

Oe last thing Passport folks.At least TWC did not switch everone to SARA.Navigator may not be Passport but if you had lived with SARA fireworks instead of moans would be in the air.I've heard someone (Dianna) from TW who has experience with both say that SARA is better than Passport - and that is why they are replacing Passport first. I understand that Passport is more "TiVo-Like" and that's why TiVo users like it. But, frankly, I've (and lots of other folks) have been pretty happy with SARA (and I've been particularly happy for the last 1 1/2 years with my External Drive - which even now does not work properly on Passport. :)

PS: I think that Manatus' comment about SDV is really one of those issues. There is a lot of things that cable wants to do that apparently Passport won't (or can't) support.

I've heard someone (Dianna) from TW who has experience with both say that SARA is better than Passport - and that is why they are replacing Passport first. I understand that Passport is more "TiVo-Like" and that's why TiVo users like it. But, frankly, I've (and lots of other folks) have been pretty happy with SARA (and I've been particularly happy for the last 1 1/2 years with my External Drive - which even now does not work properly on Passport. :)
Then Diana either hasn't seen PASSPORT or she's telling you a story. There's no comparison other than the external drive feature. But as I've said many times, SARA could have a googlebyte drive in it, it wouldn't matter because I wouldn't use it.

When she had her "asking for input" thread, it was quite obvious that she'd never even seen a TiVo. I'm not sure how you can put someone in a position like that when they don't even know what's out there in the market for competition.

EDIT: I see you wrote that she "has experience with both". Then I can only surmise that she was telling you a story. I have SARA, my best friend has PASSPORT. I've used them both. There's no comparison. It's a woodshed beatin'. She's spinning you a story to keep the SARA users happy and because the Navigator is SARA-esque.

Not if my understanding of the technology is accurate and you live in an area where TWC plans to deploy Switched Digital Video ("SDV"). One of TW's stated rationales for implementing Navigator is the inability of Passport (but not SARA) to support SDV. SDV, however, will not work with the current generation of Cablecards. Will a Tivo bought today accept a future generation of Cablecards that supports SDV?
Caution about SDV is certainly advised. But it depends on the area you are in and what their plans are. My TWC is already using some SDV and I still bought an S3.

I contacted the president of our local TWC franchise and he told me that although he could not make any promises, at this time they had no plans to put any HD channels on SDV. And they certainly won't put any heavily watched channels on it. What they DID put on it so far was some of the west coast duplicate feeds of channels. That's fine with me.

But rest assured if my channels start disappearing, I'll just dump TWC and go with satellite.

And if CableCard 2.0 ever gets finalized and in place, then I'll buy a TiVo S4 with 2 way support and be happy.

Then Diana either hasn't seen PASSPORT or she's telling you a story. As I said in the last part of my post (which, as typical, you choose to ignore) is that there are apparently lots of things that cable (TW) wants to do* and Passport won't. That is likely why they are replacing Passport first!

*Things like using SDV to bring more HD channels, nDVR, or Start-Over.

Why would Aptiv not *want* to add features that ALL cable companies are moving to ?? If it's an issue of they *can't*, well, that's a different matter. Choosing to ignore the direction the cableco industry is heading is suicide.

As for Diana saying SARA was "better", maybe better to TWC means lower software cost and maintenance fees. SA doesn't hide API functions and features, do they ?? That is, not document properly how to do certain things to make life more difficult for Aptiv.

As I said in the last part of my post (which, as typical, you choose to ignore) is that there are apparently lots of things that cable (TW) wants to do* and Passport won't. That is likely why they are replacing Passport first!

*Things like using SDV to bring more HD channels, nDVR, or Start-Over.

The hardware can obviously support those features. That's a given, since those features run fine elsewhere on the same platform.

It's then down to the software. Anything can be done in software provided you've got enough skill, time and money. My bet's that TWC is short on all three. I bet you TWC blanched at the cost to get Passport to support these new features, so they're going to cheap out instead and try to hack up SARA to do it instead. Which is craptacular idea, because as we all know, the SARA codebase is as rickety as a 200 year old outhouse.

nDVR is essentially a VOD technology. Not rocket science.

Start-Over is essentially a fusion between live-buffering DVR operations and VOD. Also not rocket science.

Why these clowns can't get this code to work without blowing up at every turn, every upgrade, every slightly imperfect situation amazes me as a software engineer. Frankly, it smacks of sloppy/crappy code writing.

Instead, they chose to go cheap and go it alone, rather than go with the superior code platform. It's gonna bite 'em in the ass in the end. Guaranteed. I hope you folks are ready for a loooooooong wait before those features are ever rolled out in a stable fashion, if ever.

Since TW's Diana is being paraphrased here today, I've looked up what she actually said:

SC is SARA and while Passport may have a couple of more functionality niceties on the guide, I wouldn't trade to Passport for all the tea in China. No Passport Divisions can get CID on TV, Enhanced TV, SDV, Start Over, Quick Clips, Sports Trackers, etc until they get MDN. As a result, Passport Divisions will get the MDN prior to SARA, so that they can become as technically capable as your system is now.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8674104&&#post8674104

As I said in the last part of my post (which, as typical, you choose to ignore)
I edited my post to correct it and posted again before you could even post this.

And I didn't notice it for the first few seconds because it couldn't possibly have been true. She's telling you a story.

I edited my post to correct it and posted again before you could even post this.

And I didn't notice it for the first few seconds because it couldn't possibly have been true. She's telling you a story.
And you STILL FAIL TO ACKNOWLEDGE that from a cable perspective that there are features that SARA has and Passport does not. Features that they need (SDV for example) in order to deliver more HD to their customers. Did you not read the post Manatus made about an hour BEFORE you made this one? (You probably skipped by it as it does not serve your purpose of bashing SARA).

Gee, I love a good fight. :)

I contacted the president of our local TWC franchise and he told me that although he could not make any promises, at this time they had no plans to put any HD channels on SDV. And they certainly won't put any heavily watched channels on it.
He said they won't put any heavily watched channels on SDV? Why not? Here in Honolulu, CNN and FOOD, among others, have start-over now. I guess that means those two channels are on SDV.

I thought the connection between SD and HD was that SD frees up bandwidth to make more HD channels possible. That would not imply that the HD channels themselves are on SD.

[SARA 1.87.16.a109]

And you STILL FAIL TO ACKNOWLEDGE that from a cable perspective that there are features that SARA has and Passport does not. Features that they need (SDV for example) in order to deliver more HD to their customers. Did you not read the post Manatus made about an hour BEFORE you made this one? (You probably skipped by it as it does not serve your purpose of bashing SARA).

Such as the feature of failing to record a program at 6AM where there were no other conflicting recordings, that I scheduled just last night ? That's a good one. Just used it tonight. :(

And if I were you, I'd begin to wonder if my cableco didn't have it in for me. :)
2 years/4 versions of SARA, and still no missed or lost recordings. Makes one wonder, doesn't it? :D

And you STILL FAIL TO ACKNOWLEDGE that from a cable perspective that there are features that SARA has and Passport does not.
Dave, why would anyone here CARE what advantages there are from a cable perspective ? I'm a consumer, not a cable operator.

Features that they need (SDV for example) in order to deliver more HD to their customers.
Nobody NEEDS SDV. They NEED to get rid of the 10 new crappy shopping channels they just added. They NEED to dump the analog by coming up with one of the other workarounds such as a digital to analog converter on the house. What other features is it they NEED? Dude, I gotta tell ya, you're taking being a TWC/SARA apologist to a new level tonight.

Did you not read the post Manatus made about an hour BEFORE you made this one? (You probably skipped by it as it does not serve your purpose of bashing SARA).
You mean this one?:

Not if my understanding of the technology is accurate and you live in an area where TWC plans to deploy Switched Digital Video ("SDV"). One of TW's stated rationales for implementing Navigator is the inability of Passport (but not SARA) to support SDV. SDV, however, will not work with the current generation of Cablecards. Will a Tivo bought today accept a future generation of Cablecards that supports SDV?
Of course, I read it. All he said was that they want to use SDV and they need SARA to do it.

And we still don't want or NEED SDV or SARA. What in the world are you talking about? Seriously. What are you talking about?

2 years/4 versions of SARA, and still no missed or lost recordings. Makes one wonder, doesn't it? :D
Yes, it makes one wonder lots of things. Like why would anyone keep SARA for 2 years.

He said they won't put any heavily watched channels on SDV? Why not?
Someone else can explain this better, but SDV works like this. Once someone on your node tunes to an SDV channel, it is sent to everyone on that node. So if it's a heavily watched channel, odds are that someone on the node will always have it on, it will always be sent, so there is no bandwidth savings.

The idea is to put infrequently watched shows on SDV. That way if no one requests them on your node, they aren't sent down the pipe, and there is a bandwidth savings.

Here in Honolulu, CNN and FOOD, among others, have start-over now. I guess that means those two channels are on SDV.
I don't know how the new start-over is implemented.

I thought the connection between SD and HD was that SD frees up bandwidth to make more HD channels possible. That would not imply that the HD channels themselves are on SD.

No, that's not necessarily true. They could put every standard def channel on SDV and leave the High def channels alone, or vice versa. SDV is just a way to save bandwidth. And actually, those old analog channels are the ones hogging the bandwidth.

Yes, it makes one wonder lots of things. Like why would anyone keep SARA for 2 years.Easy, because it works. Plus, I don't have a choice, unless I want to shell out $800 plus $12.95 or more per month for what might become a boat achor with SDV. Not all of us have difficulty with SARA or need slick graphics to record and then enjoy that recorded content. Not all of us have to record a bunch of stuff we'll never watch just so we can have a list to choose from depending on our moods. Not all of us need a Wish List because we can't remember what we want to record when. Some us were even able to use our VCRs once upon a time.

Easy, because it works. Plus, I don't have a choice, unless I want to shell out $800 plus $12.95 or more per month for what might become a boat achor with SDV.
Understand that for those of us who have experience with better, the SARA machine already is a boat anchor. It's a $12/mo boat anchor.

Not all of us have difficulty with SARA or need slick graphics to record and then enjoy that recorded content. Not all of us have to record a bunch of stuff we'll never watch just so we can have a list to choose from depending on our moods. Not all of us need a Wish List because we can't remember what we want to record when. Some us were even able to use our VCRs once upon a time.
Dave, I understand this is the crux of your argument. We will never agree on this. I'm glad you love the box you have. And I can't argue that your Yugo gets you to work every day. However, my Lexus has heated seats, a Mark Levinson sound system and a navigation system. Yep, some people know how to read a map still, but I can't read one while I'm driving. And I can't enjoy my TV if I have to sit with my laptop and guide and search through setting up recordings.

And some people can still work a VCR and don't need a nice interface. But I do. And lots of other people do as well. And there's no reason that SARA and/or Navigator have to be as pitiful as they are. None.

So you and "other Dave" have different priorities. I can respect that. But just because you're happy with an inferior product doesn't make that inferior product somehow satisfactory when compared to the competition.

I won't argue that SARA is good enough for you and Other Dave. We've clearly established that it's plenty good enough for you guys. But in this market, it's a steaming pile of pitiful software. I'd be embarrassed to tell someone I liked it.

Haven't you read the posts of the PASSPORT folks here who just got SARA'd, I mean Navigator'd?

Easy, because it works. Plus, I don't have a choice, unless I want to shell out $800 plus $12.95 or more per month for what might become a boat achor with SDV. Not all of us have difficulty with SARA or need slick graphics to record and then enjoy that recorded content. Not all of us have to record a bunch of stuff we'll never watch just so we can have a list to choose from depending on our moods. Not all of us need a Wish List because we can't remember what we want to record when. Some us were even able to use our VCRs once upon a time.Some of us stuck with VCRs (S-VHS in my case) because TiVo quality was so crappy. Some of us actually care about picture quality.

Some of us stuck with VCRs (S-VHS in my case) because TiVo quality was so crappy. Some of us actually care about picture quality.
Once again, what in the world are you talking about? You're saying you're using an S-VHS deck to record TV? So you don't even have a DVR?

And what are you talking about crappy TiVo quality?

Seriously, your posts don't even make sense? And this isn't the first time.

Someone else can explain this better, but SDV works like this. Once someone on your node tunes to an SDV channel, it is sent to everyone on that node. So if it's a heavily watched channel, odds are that someone on the node will always have it on, it will always be sent, so there is no bandwidth savings.

The idea is to put infrequently watched shows on SDV. That way if no one requests them on your node, they aren't sent down the pipe, and there is a bandwidth savings.
Surprise! You got it pretty much correct. One point: even if someone on the node has tuned into a SDV program, only those equipped with SDV capable equipment will be able to receive it as the communication as to what QAM channel and the address in that QAM's bitstream will be unknown to the receiver.

I don't know how the new start-over is implemented.[/Qute] It's a variant of On Demand. Differences are that you can't FF (skip commercials) and must tune in while program is still in progress (licensing issues). You can Pause & Rewind.

[QUOTE=jacksonian]They could put every standard def channel on SDV and leave the High def channels alone, or vice versa. SDV is just a way to save bandwidth. And actually, those old analog channels are the ones hogging the bandwidth. Yes, hogging 550MHz of it!

There are lots of issues that cable is struggling with behind the scenes (Downloadable security, higher internet speeds, analog TV cut-off, etc). It's not just a "TiVo Like" interface that count to the majority of their customers.

Once again, what in the world are you talking about? You're saying you're using an S-VHS deck to record TV? So you don't even have a DVR?I didn't get a DVR till 2 1/2 years ago when TW offered the 8000HD (since replaced by a 8300HD).

And what are you talking about crappy TiVo quality?Until the Series 3, TiVo only had SD units. These units degraded the picture quality to a great degree (first with an extra A>D conversion and then with poor quality compression). For SD the BEST PQ on consumer level recorders has been S-VHS. If you don't notice the diminished PQ on an analog SD signal from a TiVo you obviously don't care (about PQ)


Seriously, your posts don't even make sense? And this isn't the first time.They probably don't when viewed through a pair of TiVo colored glasses!

Until the Series 3, TiVo only had SD units. These units degraded the picture quality to a great degree (first with an extra A>D conversion and then with poor quality compression). For SD the BEST PQ on consumer level recorders has been S-VHS. If you don't notice the diminished PQ on an analog SD signal from a TiVo you obviously don't care (about PQ)
Hmm, don't care about PQ? I guess that's why I have a BluRay player, HD-DVD player, TiVo S3, 60" plasma and 1080p projector in my media room. You're right, I don't care about PQ. But seriously, TiVo on Best Quality recording doesn't degrade the quality at all.

They probably don't when viewed through a pair of TiVo colored glasses!
No, seriously, they don't.

Dave, I understand this is the crux of your argument.No, you don't understand anything. You just want to sit on your pity pot and lament the fact that your cableco has saddled you with a poor version of SARA. I do not love my box, it's simply a piece of hardware made available by my cableco for a price I'm willing to pay. However, I can use it to record the HD I want to record and I simply don't see the need to spend a ridiculous amount of money on a Tivo S3 that doesn't give me any more capability than my SA8300HD and notebook.
We will never agree on this.You are right about that. The difference is all you can do is put down anyone who doesn't hate a piece of hardware as much as you do, like it's the end of the world. You sarcastically argue about Yugo's and Lexus' like that has anything to do with anything. You can't enjoy your TV while sitting with your laptop and guide and search through setting up recordings, but you can enjoy your TV while the Tivo search screen is up, etc. That makes absolutely no sense. I can watch TV (at full screen) while still searching, etc., on my notebook while the best you get is a tiny little screen. And, I'm not interferring with whatever anyone else in the family is watching while I'm searching TitanTV, etc.
.....and don't need a nice interface. But I do. Needing and wanting are 2 different things. If you need it, that's fine, but why do you feel so insecure that all you can do is bash something and put down anyone who has a different opinion or set of priorities in their lives?
So you and "other Dave" have different priorities. I can respect that.If you did, we wouldn't be having this "conversation". While I can respect your spending $800 on an S3 to satisfy your needs (even though I think that's foolish), you can't respect the fact that not all of us have the same need or are not willing to part with that amount of money. Even though you now have your beloved Tivo, your pity pot still continues to grow. :(

Dave,
You must be joking me. You obviously love your box or you wouldn't spend so much time raging against the machine, us evil villains picking on your poor beloved SARA. You and Other Dave spend your time using the AVS search function to find anyone disparaging SARA so you can run to her defense. You do this so often that it's a joke that we keep on PM.

If you had any idea of how much better the competition was, you'd stop posting this junk. You don't understand how TiVo works or you'd know I don't need a guide or even channel numbers and I don't need to spend more than 2 minutes a year "setting up" any recordings. I don't have to sit and search for anything on TitanTV or anywhere else. I tell TiVo once and we're done for good.

And my analogy to Yugos and Lexus are exactly what we're talking about here, no difference. I'm not bashing you because your priorities are different. But DON'T come here and tell people that SARA is just as good. That's simply not true in any way. You can love your Yugo, but don't show up at the auto show bragging about how your Yugo "just works", I mean, well, I have to push it up hills and stuff, but it works. And don't show up at AVS where people know better and try to tell them SARA is a good product.

Facts are facts. There is no question that SARA is an inferior product, not just inferior to TiVo, but to PASSPORT, Moxi, Replay, Dish, DirecTV, any product in this category.

And are you so facile that you need a "Pity pot" signature and then see how many times you can use the phrase "Pity pot" in your posts?

Well based on the screen shots alone, I'm not looking forward to this.

Given the number of years Mystro has been in development it looks like they just decided to do a quick dirty copy of Passport in the last 6 months. Except make it look less attractive. Despite Echo's lack of features in some areas at least it looks like they put some thought into the cosmetics. MDN looks like a quick Flash menu for a web graphic.

Dave,
You must be joking me. You obviously love your box or you wouldn't spend so much time raging against the machine, us evil villains picking on your poor beloved SARA. You and Other Dave spend your time using the AVS search function to find anyone disparaging SARA so you can run to her defense. You do this so often that it's a joke that we keep on PM.

If you had any idea of how much better the competition was, you'd stop posting this junk. You don't understand how TiVo works or you'd know I don't need a guide or even channel numbers and I don't need to spend more than 2 minutes a year "setting up" any recordings. I don't have to sit and search for anything on TitanTV or anywhere else. I tell TiVo once and we're done for good.

And my analogy to Yugos and Lexus are exactly what we're talking about here, no difference. I'm not bashing you because your priorities are different. But DON'T come here and tell people that SARA is just as good. That's simply not true in any way. You can love your Yugo, but don't show up at the auto show bragging about how your Yugo "just works", I mean, well, I have to push it up hills and stuff, but it works. And don't show up at AVS where people know better and try to tell them SARA is a good product.

Facts are facts. There is no question that SARA is an inferior product, not just inferior to TiVo, but to PASSPORT, Moxi, Replay, Dish, DirecTV, any product in this category.

And are you so facile that you need a "Pity pot" signature and then see how many times you can use the phrase "Pity pot" in your posts?

Bravo!

We all have to agree that some like SARH and are looking forward to Navigator, mostly because they never had Passport.I'm afraid that (from what I've seen here) that few SARA and few Passport are looking forward to Navigator. Hopefully, TW will soon get it to be "the best of all worlds" - but it does not sound like it so far.

Lets get back the issues and not personal attackes on each other.

OK, shake hands and get over it. :)OK - just as soon as the SARA bashing (and Passport bashing) stops.

I don't believe that either DoubleDAZ or myself have intended personal attacks - but both of us do look for some balance in an AVS thread purporting to discuss progress on the TW Digital Navigator.

Never gonna happen KC. These 2 continue to put words in our mouths and continue to harp on SARA just because they are/were saddled with a version that doesn't work right. They continue to personally disparage anyone who is able to use their 8300 successfully and says so. If you read any of my posts you will see that I never said SARA or the 8300 were as good as a Tivo and it's software, just that one doesn't have to pay $800 for it. Some of us simply don't believe it is worth that price and they just don't accept that or respect our decision. Instead they continue to bash the 8300 wherever and wherever they can when there is absolutely no need to even comment about it. This thread is supposed to be about Navigator, not how bad they think SARA is or how good Tivo is. And, they won't be happy until Navigator itself is just like Tivo, which it may eventually be. One of them already has a Tivo S3, yet he stills feels inadequate and has to continue sitting on his pity pot regarding SARA and TWCs efforts to do something they believe will help them compete in the cable DVR market. While this version of Navigator obviously leaves a lot to be desired, bashing anything else is pointless and personally attacking those who try to correct the misinformation is just mean-spirited.

And with that I'll leave them to their pity pots.

Dave,
You must be joking me. You obviously love your box or you wouldn't spend so much time raging against the machine, us evil villains picking on your poor beloved SARA. You and Other Dave spend your time using the AVS search function to find anyone disparaging SARA so you can run to her defense. You do this so often that it's a joke that we keep on PM.

If you had any idea of how much better the competition was, you'd stop posting this junk. You don't understand how TiVo works or you'd know I don't need a guide or even channel numbers and I don't need to spend more than 2 minutes a year "setting up" any recordings. I don't have to sit and search for anything on TitanTV or anywhere else. I tell TiVo once and we're done for good.

And my analogy to Yugos and Lexus are exactly what we're talking about here, no difference. I'm not bashing you because your priorities are different. But DON'T come here and tell people that SARA is just as good. That's simply not true in any way. You can love your Yugo, but don't show up at the auto show bragging about how your Yugo "just works", I mean, well, I have to push it up hills and stuff, but it works. And don't show up at AVS where people know better and try to tell them SARA is a good product.

Facts are facts. There is no question that SARA is an inferior product, not just inferior to TiVo, but to PASSPORT, Moxi, Replay, Dish, DirecTV, any product in this category.

And are you so facile that you need a "Pity pot" signature and then see how many times you can use the phrase "Pity pot" in your posts?

I second Paul's Bravo on this one. I wish I had been able to articulate as well crafted a response as this when Daz basicly ran me out of the 8300 SARA tips and tricks forum for "bashing" the 8300HD. SARA is an inferior product even when NOT compared to any other DVR. It is simply indefensible. Dave's assertion that his SARA box has never lost a recording or failed to record a show in 2 years defies belief. I can only assume he is joking. I had to baby sit my 8300 daily to have even a remote chance of getting it to record correctly. We finally just gave up. We now constanly have missing shows, recordings just vanish from the box, etc. It is so bad in fact, that we have pretty much abandoned our regular evening TV watching ritaul because we have missed so many episodes of shows that have long story arcs, like Prison Break, because they either failed to record or vanished from the box 2 days after being recorded (with 80% free space). This POS has set back TV watching in our household by 20 years. Of course I guess this could be considered a good thing. Get's us off the couch :)
And I am not going to sit in front of my TV with my notebook and cross referance the SARA guide with Titan TV to actually make this DVR work correctly. I mean come on. Seriously now. Using the argument that using your notebook to get accurate guide information is actually preferable to having the correct information available in the DVR because your "not interferring with whatever anyone else in the family is watching while I'm searching TitanTV" has got to be the worst attempt at rationalization I think I have ever read. That's like saying "the fact that my car fails to start 50% of the time is actually acceptable/possibly better since it forces me to walk to work, and then I save gas." I may be guilty of bashing the 8300, but Daz, you are most definately looking at it through rose-colored glasses. Possibly crimson-colored glasses.

And just to stay on-topic. I am eagerly awaiting Navigator. Just based on the screen shots I have seen, it will be an improvemtn in the UI area over SARA, if nothing else. At this point, even a baby step towards a functional DVR is good with me.

Lets get back the issues and not personal attackes on each other.

OK, shake hands and get over it. :)After szcurlo's response that's not gonna happen. :o

Never gonna happen KC. These 2 continue to put words in our mouths and continue to harp on SARA just because they are/were saddled with a version that doesn't work right. They continue to personally disparage anyone who is able to use their 8300 successfully and says so. If you read any of my posts you will see that I never said SARA or the 8300 were as good as a Tivo and it's software, just that one doesn't have to pay $800 for it. Some of us simply don't believe it is worth that price and they just don't accept that or respect our decision. Instead they continue to bash the 8300 wherever and wherever they can when there is absolutely no need to even comment about it. This thread is supposed to be about Navigator, not how bad they think SARA is or how good Tivo is. And, they won't be happy until Navigator itself is just like Tivo, which it may eventually be. One of them already has a Tivo S3, yet he stills feels inadequate and has to continue sitting on his pity pot regarding SARA and TWCs efforts to do something they believe will help them compete in the cable DVR market. While this version of Navigator obviously leaves a lot to be desired, bashing anything else is pointless and personally attacking those who try to correct the misinformation is just mean-spirited.

And with that I'll leave them to their pity pots.

You can cram your infantile pity pot.

This entire discussion is relevant to SARA (and requisite bashing) since the Navigator platform is based upon the SARA codebase, and all of its warts. Given that, you have to assume that all of the bugs (oh sorry, features!) that SARA has will continue onwards in Navigator.

Also take note that I have never directly or indirectly referenced TiVo in this thread. Don't need to. SARA/Navigator is crappy enough to warrant "bashing" on its own.

After szcurlo's response that's not gonna happen. :o
Sorry, guys, but the calls for truce posted while I was writing my post. didn't see them until after I had posted. Not that that would have kept me from posting anyway. I have done a good job of keeping my mouth shut since my exhange with Daz over in tips and tricks, but one can only remain silent for so long.....

This is classic Two Daves:
Dave #1:

I don't believe that either DoubleDAZ or myself have intended personal attacks....

Immediately followed by Dave #2

One of them already has a Tivo S3, yet he stills feels inadequate and has to continue sitting on his pity pot...

followed a few sentences later by this:
personally attacking those who try to correct the misinformation is just mean-spirited..

I mean, it's like a comedy team that's not funny. You guys are the ones with the insecurity and inadequacy issues. It's ok that your baby is ugly. Just don't keep telling everyone she's so pretty.

And with that I'll leave them to their pity pots.
Seriously, how old are you? Could you use pity pot in a sentence one more time? Is that supposed to be funny? Or an insult? I can't tell. But either way, please keep it in your signature and please keep writing it in these threads, because it's honestly the best way I have to discredit anything you say.

http://homepage.smc.edu/randall_toni/sumo.gif

Seriously, how old are you? Could you use pity pot in a sentence one more time? Is that supposed to be funny? Or an insult? I can't tell. But either way, please keep it in your signature and please keep writing it in these threads, because it's honestly the best way I have to discredit anything you say.

What makes it funnier is knowing that Dave is retired. Gotta be pushing 60+ years by now...

SDV is the way TW will be guaranteed to lose my business.

The only reason I still have a SA8300HD is to have access to VOD.

I have a Tivo S3 which works much better for everything and as soon as TW implements SDV in my area, I will cancel their service all together and switch to FIOS.

SDV is the way TW will be guaranteed to lose my business.

The only reason I still have a SA8300HD is to have access to VOD.

I have a Tivo S3 which works much better for everything and as soon as TW implements SDV in my area, I will cancel their service all together and switch to FIOS.
Bruce, I think you'll see a lot of folks split. I'm quite sure my buddy will go to satellite as soon as he gets home from holiday vacation and sees Navigator instead of PASSPORT.

I had hopes that they would decide to use one of the other technologies being developed to save bandwidth. But I don't know what their plans are.

I would kill to be a fly on the wall in the TWC war room and find out what the master plan is.

SDV is the way TW will be guaranteed to lose my business.

The only reason I still have a SA8300HD is to have access to VOD.

I have a Tivo S3 which works much better for everything and as soon as TW implements SDV in my area, I will cancel their service all together and switch to FIOS.


Couldn't you just rent another box to get VOD ? Why the 8300 ? HD VOD is the only reason I can possibly think of, yet there's gotta other boxes that do that as well ?

This entire discussion is relevant to SARA (and requisite bashing) since the Navigator platform is based upon the SARA codebase, and all of its warts. If this (built on SARA codebase) is true - then how come the first roll-out is on Passport systems? (Believe it or not, this is an honest question.)

If this (built on SARA codebase) is true - then how come the first roll-out is on Passport systems? (Believe it or not, this is an honest question.)

I don't know if it is true or not, however it does seem to be using some development kit that was available on SARA as well - with SARA they added the 'A' button access menu to our system a year and a half ago (everything else is still SARA).

xnappo

If this (built on SARA codebase) is true - then how come the first roll-out is on Passport systems? (Believe it or not, this is an honest question.)
I've heard this explained before. I believe it's to get everyone one the same SARA based system as quickly as possible. If you changed over the SARA folks first, then you'd still have a 50/50 split. This way everyone will be on a SARA based platform to work from.

I've heard this explained before. I believe it's to get everyone one the same SARA based system as quickly as possible. If you changed over the SARA folks first, then you'd still have a 50/50 split. This way everyone will be on a SARA based platform to work from.This is true, according to Diana’s post that Manatus dug up…
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/show...4&&#post8674104

I've heard this explained before. I believe it's to get everyone one the same SARA based system as quickly as possible. If you changed over the SARA folks first, then you'd still have a 50/50 split. This way everyone will be on a SARA based platform to work from.So you guys don't have answer then?

My understanding is that it IS NOT based on SARA, but rather on a new software standard (Open Cable Applications Platform) that has been defined by Cable Labs. The intent is to have a platform which allows third parties (TiVo is one example) to develop software which integrates into the cable system:
OCAP Overview
The OpenCable Applications Platform (OCAP™) specification is a middleware software layer specification. The OCAP specification is intended to enable the developers of interactive television services and applications to design such products so that they will run successfully on any cable television system in North America, independent of set-top or television receiver hardware or operating system software choices.

The OCAP specification enables manufacturers and retail distributors of set-tops, television receivers or other devices to build and to sell attractive and capable devices to consumers that will support all services delivered by cable operators to devices currently available to consumers via lease from cable operators.
For more information:
OCAP Site (http://www.opencable.com/ocap/)

In short: The Time Warner Digital Navigator is the first step by TW to implement OCAP into their system. But it's a shame that the first visible efforts are so short of people's expectations

So you guys don't have answer then?

Dave, what is your problem ? Can you not read the post LL3HD just posted, or are you choosing to ignore it ?

There's confirmation from this Diana person (I assume she's some TWC employee) that it is indeed based upon SARA. LL3HD posted a stale link, but I'd be far more inclined to believe LL3HD and Manatus than you and your distorted/skewed "understanding".

Dave, what is your problem ? Can you not read the post LL3HD just posted, or are you choosing to ignore it ?

There's confirmation from this Diana person (I assume she's some TWC employee) that it is indeed based upon SARA. LL3HD posted a stale link, but I'd be far more inclined to believe LL3HD and Manatus than you and your distorted/skewed "understanding".


Nowhere in the posting that I quoted yesterday did TW's Director of Video Product Management, Diana, say that Navigator is based upon SARA. Here, once again, is a link to her actual words:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8674104&&#post8674104

Nowhere in the posting that I quoted yesterday did TW's Director of Video Product Management, Diana, say that Navigator is based upon SARA. Here, once again, is a link to her actual words:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8674104&&#post8674104


Thanks for the refresh.

MDN stands for what, exactly ? M***** Digital Navigator, I assume. What's the "M" ?

I googled around a bit, and found a lot of references to TWC and ODN, which stands for OCAP Digital Navigator, and is based upon OpenTV. Even saw some screencaps, which by the way, look NOTHING like the screen caps that are on the TWC web sites. So, I have to believe it's an entirely different software package than what they're rolling out now.

So, as far as I can tell, the only relation between the ODN and MDN is a marketing label or slogan, and not the actual code that's running on the box.

MDN stands for what, exactly ? M***** Digital Navigator, I assume. What's the "M" ?



M=Mystro

I may be wrong that Navigator is based on SARA, but it sure looks like it is and I thought I had read this confirmed before. I will have to search for it.

My question is this: davehancock was an active participant in that thread, posting all around that post of Diana's referenced where she clearly stated a reason for rolling out to PASSPORT first.

So why would davehancock post this:
If this (built on SARA codebase) is true - then how come the first roll-out is on Passport systems? (Believe it or not, this is an honest question.)

and this was quickly followed after my post by this:

So you guys don't have answer then?

My understanding is that it IS NOT based on SARA, but rather on a new software standard (Open Cable Applications Platform) that has been defined by Cable Labs. The intent is to have a platform which allows third parties (TiVo is one example) to develop software which integrates into the cable system:

So it doesn't seem like an honest question after all does it, now?

And I'm not sure his explanation regarding OCAP is entirely correct since OCAP is middleware and still has to have a software interface overlay, correct? OCAP to Navigator or SARA isn't apples to apples I don't believe.

My understanding is that it IS NOT based on SARA, but rather on a new software standard (Open Cable Applications Platform) that has been defined by Cable Labs. I asked my contact at my local TWC about Mystro almost a year ago

Question: I wanted to mention this to you though I have a feeling that you can't or won't comment on this one. If so, I do understand.

Two people have contacted me via two different websites, one person is from FL (Brighthouse) and the other is from NC (TW), and mentioned that Time Warner has developed their own set-top software for SA boxes.

A few things struck me as odd though. One, TW uses more than just SA boxes and I'm sure they don't want different software out there. Two, you recently sent me an e-mail from someone (I presume from the NC "testing" labs) talking about features in more recent versions of Passport Echo and when they plan to start testing them. Answer: Time Warner Cable plans to upgrade the set tops resident application from Passport (Pioneer or Aptiv) or SARA (SA) to the Mystro Digital Navigator (TWC). This is being trialed at other divisions. The MDN will the various set top code versions needed to support legacy SA, Pioneer and Pace set tops, as well as future Open Cable Application Platform compatible set tops. We'll upgrade sometime in the next year or so depending on how the trials and initial rollouts go. Given that software schedules are flaky, TWC is maintaining some parallel feature development for Passport and SARA.

Dave, what is your problem ? Can you not read the post LL3HD just posted, or are you choosing to ignore it ?

There's confirmation from this Diana person (I assume she's some TWC employee) that it is indeed based upon SARA. LL3HD posted a stale link, but I'd be far more inclined to believe LL3HD and Manatus than you and your distorted/skewed "understanding".
As Mantus pointed out, I did not have a distorted/skewed "understanding". The truth is that TW (as well as the other cable companies) has an effort underway to move to OCAP. The TW Digital Navigator (previously code named "Mystro") is the visable portion of this. They are moving first to replace Passport with this because that software has more severe shortcomings from a cable company standpoint.

I am afraid that it is you SARA bashers that have the distorted/skewed "understanding"!

As Mantus pointed out, I did not have a distorted/skewed "understanding". The truth is that TW (as well as the other cable companies) has an effort underway to move to OCAP. The TW Digital Navigator (previously code named "Mystro") is the visable portion of this. They are moving first to replace Passport with this because that software has more severe shortcomings from a cable company standpoint.

I am afraid that it is you SARA bashers that have the distorted/skewed "understanding"!

What Manatus reiterated had absolutely nothing to do with your wild-assed guess that MDN was based upon OCAP. It simply said that TWC was going ahead with MDN to provide additional services that they felt were easier to achieve than with Passport.

It's going to be a laugh-riot watching these cable guys roll out their next iteration of "musical security platforms". Let's see, they've been working on CableCard for how long ? Ten years now, with less than a million deployed ? There's some lightning-fast innovation for you! Let's see how long it takes them to shuffle the three card Montie cards with their new flavors of SDV and OCAP.

Man, you must have the phrases "from a cable company standpoint" and "SARA bashers" set up as hotkeys on your keyboard, because you sure as hell enter them a lot. Get some new material, would you...

What Manatus reiterated had absolutely nothing to do with your wild-assed guess that MDN was based upon OCAP. It simply said that TWC was going ahead with MDN to provide additional services that they felt were easier to achieve than with Passport. No, what Manatus reiterated was that Passport lacked features that SARA had. Thus they were moving to replace Passport first.
No Passport Divisions can get CID on TV, Enhanced TV, SDV, Start Over, Quick Clips, Sports Trackers, etc until they get MDN. As a result, Passport Divisions will get the MDN prior to SARA, so that they can become as technically capable as your system is now.

RE: "wild-assed guess"- No, it's not a guess. Any half serious observer of cable technology knows from various press releases, statements, conferences, etc. that MDN is part of the OCAP implementation.

Diana why is it that Navigator has no manual recording option?

Diana why is it that Navigator has no manual recording option?

I think you got lost, you need the TWC input thread. Although it looks very similar to the arguments in here now and Diana will probably ignore you just as much. :)

... SD frees up bandwidth ... No, ... SDV is just a way to save bandwidth. ...
Strange conversation.

I may be wrong that Navigator is based on SARA, but it sure looks like it is and I thought I had read this confirmed before. I will have to search for it.
I don't see any reason to think that Navigator is based on SARA. My interpretation of what Diana said in the other thread is that TWC wants to implement SDV on all their systems as a priority and that both SARA and Navigator support SDV, while PASSPORT does not. So they want to replace PASSPORT with Navigator before replacing SARA with Navigator. This does not imply that Navigator was derived from SARA.

Strange conversation.
Sure, it's strange when you chop it together like that. What I was trying to say was that they could put all the HD on a switched tier or any combination. That was in response to your statement about HD not being on a switched tier.

I don't see any reason to think that Navigator is based on SARA. My interpretation of what Diana said in the other thread is that TWC wants to implement SDV on all their systems as a priority and that both SARA and Navigator support SDV, while PASSPORT does not. So they want to replace PASSPORT with Navigator before replacing SARA with Navigator. This does not imply that Navigator was derived from SARA.Watch out, Greg. You make too much sense for the SARA-bashers here and you know what happens then. This and Diana's thread could both be summed up in one sentence, "if it's not Tivo, it's a POS" and anyone who doesn't buy their BS is the devil incarnate. In this case, I'm happy to side with the devil. :)

Watch out, Greg. You make too much sense for the SARA-bashers here and you know what happens then.
Look, Paul, Dave #2 has "SARA-bashers" hotkeyed too! :D I'm just disappointed he couldn't fit in a pity pot. That really lets me down.

This and Diana's thread could both be summed up in one sentence, "if it's not Tivo, it's a POS" and anyone who doesn't buy their BS is the devil incarnate. In this case, I'm happy to side with the devil. :)
No, see, you're projecting there, Dave. You're the one who thinks we're evil. We don't think you're evil at all. We just think you're either a) truly ignorant of the competition in the market [doubtful] or b) just love to fantasize yourselves as defenders of the downtrodden [likely].

No, I just like to rattle your cage, and you are such an easy target, during these days of holiday reruns. ROTFLMAO!!!! :D

Come on, Dave, that's not cool! Seriously, two posts in a row from you without the pity pot. How can you keep letting me down like that? I guess I'll just have to keep reading your signature and chuckling over and over again.

And I think you just admitted to being a troll, didn't you? ;)

As far as you are concerned, yes, I am a troll. You offer nothing of substance, so that's what you get in return. I joined your thread to keep up to date on what is happening with Navigator, but you turn every thread you visit into a SARA-bashing exercise, to what end, I've yet to figure out. It's impossible to carry on a serious discussion of Navigator while you simply regurgitate your dislike of all things not Tivo ad nauseum. While I know you and Paul have serious difficulties with your versions of SARA, that is not true of all versions, especially the latest 1.88.x.x versions. Why you 2 can't just leave it at that is beyond me.

And then to state that Navigator is based on SARA when there is no basis in fact for such a statement is simply yet another example of you putting forth inaccurate information as fact. As I've said many, many times, you are free to bash all you want and I am free to correct you. Folks come to these threads for information, not personal vindictiveness and inaccuracies.

As for pity pots, I don't need one. I'm not the one still smarting from some software I wasn't able to use correctly. There, you happy now? I was able to work in "pity pot" just for you. :P

So then be the bigger man and stop this, and lets move back to what the forum is about.And that's what I will do. However, incorrect info will still be corrected, no matter what the source. FWIW, that's all I did to begin with, but in the future, attack responses will get no further comment.

We have established that no one really knows what Navigator is built upon. From what I have seen of it, it sure looks SARAish. TWC surely didn't start from the ground up. But maybe they did.....I think the current thought is they simply resurrected a past version of Navigator and are building fromt here. It's unfortuate that it's a step or 2 back for Passport users, but if the goal is to build something that supports SDV, etc., and is stable, it seems better to start with the basics and go forward fromt here. Hopefully, they will have more control over updates and roll them out quicker. If they don't and it's as bad as some say (not just lacking flashy graphics), they will find themsleves hurting quickly.
Aptiv has an OPEN version of Passport. They have to or they would go under. Google search says that Aptiv is the only software company that provides software for Both SA and Motorola boxes. If the move to SDV is the future, they will have to provide software or go out of business.Too true. I'm not sure what you mean by OPEN.

Aptiv has an OPEN version of Passport. They have to or they would go under. Google search says that Aptiv is the only software company that provides software for Both SA and Motorola boxes.


Too true. I'm not sure what you mean by OPEN.Dave, what I think he means is that Aptiv also has a OCAP compliant version of Passport. Virtually everyone is now working on OCAP compliant versions of their software.

Incidentally, for you TiVo fans, one of the objectives of OCAP is to enable consumer owned products (PVRs, TVs, Media Center PCs, etc.) to work seamlessly with cable (and all it's variations - including SDV). The problem is, that it does take time (as the folks who are currently alpha testing (it sure seems like it is pre-alpha) MDN can attest.

Another thought: I wonder if the reason that Pioneer unloaded Passport to Aptiv, is that they knew that the market was suddenly going to get tougher. And a third party (Aptiv) had a lot better chance of selling their software to someone like Panasonic than Pioneer would. ;)

We have established that no one really knows what Navigator is built upon. From what I have seen of it, it sure looks SARAish. TWC surely didn't start from the ground up. But maybe they did, I understand Lincoln who has it since June of 06, went through 26 versions. So those folks really know what it is like to live in a test lab. I am sure that not all versions made it out the door to all customers. But even if they all got half of them, that would be a nightmare for anybody to come home every week to a new software load.

We here is KC just got a post card in the mail telling us about Navigator and all its possiblities. Sorry the word "Possiblities" reminds me of those TWC Flying Pink Pigs they had in ads when the tag line was "Now Anything is Possible". I guess we should expect the roller coaster ride to start sometime this month. I will be sure and post my 1st experience when I get up on morning to Navigator.

Aptiv has an OPEN version of Passport. They have to or they would go under. Google search says that Aptiv is the only software company that provides software for Both SA and Motorola boxes. If the move to SDV is the future, they will have to provide software or go out of business.

I don't have a Tivo or even plan to get one. I saw one a couple of years ago and really thought it was cute but all the beeps and bonks it makes would drive me wild. I am sure you could turn the sounds off, but I don't want to pay another $12 bucks a month for another TV service on top of the price of the Tivo box. I really like my SA8300HD DVR with Passport, I had a SA8000SD DVR and boy was that a boat anchor. But I guess I will learn to use Navigator or look at Dish or Everest the other cable company in town. I am one of the few lucky ones here in KC that also has an other Cable Company running down my alley way. Everest caused TWC to lower rates big time in the areas they both provide service. So I just stayed with TWC as they cut my bill in half to stay. Maybe once Navigator launches and they have to start cutting rates again to keep us, I will get another rate reduction.

I got the same mailing today. I'm up north in Smithville, MO so i only have twc as an option. I dont have the DVR, and dont plan on getting it. Personally, I feel that if i'mnot home to watch a show, then I must be doing something more important, but my parents do, and they record non-stop. Anyways, I have the HD box, and love it. I also use the movies on demand feature.

Bottom line, what is going to be the big deal with me? Will I need a new box? Will I still be able to watch movies on demand? I'm sure my HD wont be impacted. What about my other TV's which dont have a box, will they still get the basic analog channels? If any of these items are impacted, i'm done with twc.

I kind of assumed OCAP, but AFAIK there are no OCAP-compliant versions available yet (other than alpha), so I wasn't sure that is what he meant or not, just wanted to be sure. :)

There is no doubt that OCAP will bring a whole new round of competition to the cable landscape and should allow consumer-owned DVRs to finally replace VCRs as the medium of choice for time-shifting. Once everyone can buy their DVR of choice, prices should come down and feature sets should rise. However, if TWCs planned deployment of OCAP will simply allow consumer hardware with TWC still controlling the software, then I'm not sure the level of competition will be as great as I'd hoped. I was hoping cable would provide a suite of software from different vendors at different price points. Of course, since they all strive to offer features comparable to Tivo, I'm not sure how this will all work out.

Avoiding analysis paralysis
By Jeff Baumgartner, Editor
June 1, 2005

What about Mystro?

Still relatively hush-hush is what is going on behind the scenes regarding navigation technology at Time Warner Cable and its erstwhile MystroTV division.

About a year ago, Time Warner Cable disclosed plans to remove existing IPGs from Scientific-Atlanta and Pioneer and replace them with new in-house navigation products. In addition to guides for the legacy boxes, Time Warner Cable is also hard at work on versions for OCAP (OpenCable Application Platform). The company has not disclosed timelines for the new "native" or OCAP-based "Mystro Digital Navigator" products.

As for innovation, there is word of advanced search features (that tie in VOD, the DVR and broadcast content), as well as a more intuitive in-channel navigation tool and multi-room support. A company spokesman said the project has three primary goals: to improve navigation and time-shifting, to create a more immersive programming experience, and to introduce compelling interactive content and services.


This is just a small part. For the entire article, click here (http://www.cedmagazine.com/article/CA603787.html)

There is no doubt that OCAP will bring a whole new round of competition to the cable landscape and should allow consumer-owned DVRs to finally replace VCRs as the medium of choice for time-shifting. Once everyone can buy their DVR of choice, prices should come down and feature sets should rise. However, if TWCs planned deployment of OCAP will simply allow consumer hardware with TWC still controlling the software, then I'm not sure the level of competition will be as great as I'd hoped. I was hoping cable would provide a suite of software from different vendors at different price points. Of course, since they all strive to offer features comparable to Tivo, I'm not sure how this will all work out.

Given the cableco's perpetual desire to control every facet of signal delivery(as any monopolist would), I believe that it's the likely scenario that they'll use OCAP to dump their own software on to consumer boxes. So, it's the same old same old. Sure, you can buy a box at Best Buy or Circuit City, but when you get home the cableco will dump whatever flavor of software THEY want to onto your box. Gee, thanks...

This is the consumer electronics industry's complaint against the system. There's still essentially no consumer choice when you get down to it. You can either rent a box, or buy a box, but in the end, they're both the same as far as functionality goes.

Your choices boil down to renting or buying a Honda Accord. That's it. There aren't any Yugos or Mercedes-Benz, only Accords. One size fits all. Where's the choice ????

Paul,

I totally agree and I'm going to try hard to squeeze my cableco contact for that kind of info. Since he now runs the IT and 4-5 other divisions, he should be in a good position to know what they plan to do. :)

I've always maintained that even with DirecTV and Dish, and now FIOS, there is still very little competition, except maybe to hold rates down a tad. They are all very close in price/content, but you are stuck with whatever they offer for hardware/software, unless you want to shell out fairly significant dollars for something like Tivo that may have some difficulties sooner or later with SDV, etc. I assume their problems though are software-based and they are also working on an OCAP-compliant version.

Though I "think" there might be ulterior motives in TWC's move to in-house software, the fact that other cableco's are embracing Tivo as a 3rd party vendor holds out hope that others will be allowed to offer their packages just like Tivo with Moto/SA hardware. One would hope that OCAP will bring several models with varying capacities, built-in DVD recorders, etc. AFAIK, Tivo software does not reside on the cableco system, though it flows through the cableco for upload and upgrade. There should be no reason other vendors can't/won't do the same. Does anyone know exactly how all this will eventually work? The Other Dave? :)

Though I "think" there might be ulterior motives in TWC's move to in-house software, the fact that other cableco's are embracing Tivo as a 3rd party vendor holds out hope that others will be allowed to offer their packages just like Tivo with Moto/SA hardware. One would hope that OCAP will bring several models with varying capacities, built-in DVD recorders, etc. AFAIK, Tivo software does not reside on the cableco system, though it flows through the cableco for upload and upgrade. There should be no reason other vendors can't/won't do the same. Does anyone know exactly how all this will eventually work? The Other Dave? :)TiVo doesn't "offer" their package--Comcast and Cox made deals with them to port it to Motorola and SA boxes. These ports are native code for specific platforms. AFAIK, TiVo is not working on an OCAP implementation of their product.

The TiVo software for Comcast and Cox systems will reside at the headend and be downloaded into PVRs upon customer request and service subscription with the cable provider. It's essentially just another service for those cable providers to offer. TiVo gets licensing fees and probably some subscription fees for TiVo guide information.

TiVo is threatened by SDV, but CableLabs has been working on a lightweight standardized version of SDV for platforms which don't want the additional cost being built on a platform powerful enough and with enough nonvolatile storage to run OCAP.

I would love to have the Mutil-Room DVR option, I have not heard anyone say whether Navigator will allow that. Any comments?8300MRs have been available to the cable companies for quite a while now (at least on SARA systems)- and no one has rushed into them. I know that TW here has beta tested them - but they never appeared (cable has never embraced the external drive either). I think it is more of a marketing issue (how to make money from the additional investment?) than a technical (software) one.

KC,

I understand your point, but do you really think Tivo software resides on the headend? I expect Tivo software resides on the S3 and updates are simply routed through the cable just like they are/were though phone lines on older Tivos. IMHO, there is no reason other 3rd party apps can't work the same way, is there?

I'm not sure what's going on with Navigator, but the original SA8000HD's had some of the same problems; slow, blank preview window, etc. Back in the day, I believe the IPG contained only 3 days worth of data by default and searches had to download more in order to function. These problems were all fixed via software updates and expanded IPG databases. We didn't get a 7 day IPG here until they released the 8300. It seems to me they are rolling Navigator out before it's ready so that maybe they can move on quickly with whatever else they have planned for 2007.

When I messed around my friends Non DVR box and Navigator. The Find Shows feature did a loading message that lasted 5-10 seconds. During this load, the preview video in the 1/4 screen went black. This happened every time Find Shows was used. I think this is the B button on your remote. So this mini application was being loaded from the Headend everytime. S

How about any delay when just going to the normal IPG? To me that would be really annoying.

xnappo

Dave,
I think Mike was referring to "deals" that TiVo has made with Comcast to offer their (TiVo's) branded software on Comcast provided DVRs. I think that is an entirely separate activity than OCAP (though it could well depend on that too).

I understand your point, but do you really think Tivo software resides on the headend? I expect Tivo software resides on the S3 and updates are simply routed through the cable just like they are/were though phone lines on older Tivos. IMHO, there is no reason other 3rd party apps can't work the same way, is there?Oh--I thought that you were saying that the TiVo software didn't originate at the headend. Yes, of course it's resident in the SA, after it's been downloaded from the headend. It'd take minutes to download it--it couldn't be done dynamically.

I guess that other packages could be offered in this fashion. I know that Cox is making the TiVo UI optional for additional cost (I suspect that Comcast is handling it the same way); if you don't subscribe, you get the old IPG, Passport or SARA. However, any such other packages would also have to be offered by the cable provider--they will always control what's running on their boxes.

I know that Passport and SARA had provisions for development of custom extensions. The VOD menus and stuff like the see-your-bill-pay-it-on-your-STB thing are examples of that. I'd expect that TiVo's port also has the same feature.

Dave,
I think Mike was referring to "deals" that TiVo has made with Comcast to offer their (TiVo's) branded software on Comcast provided DVRs. I think that is an entirely separate activity than OCAP (though it could well depend on that too).I was responding to KC (post edited) and our posts crossed. :)

FWIW, everything I've read says the ports are not OCAP-dependent though OCAP versions will also be available at some point. They didn't want to have to wait on OCAP in order to offer their software. Some of that could have changed and I always wondered why bother with a SA version that is not OCAP-compliant since everything says OCAP will be up in 2007 and the SA version is not supposed to be available until late 2007 at the earliest with early/mid 2008 more likely.

Oh--I thought that you were saying that the TiVo software didn't originate at the headend. Yes, of course it's resident in the SA, after it's been downloaded from the headend.

I guess that other packages could be offered in this fashion. I know that Cox is making the TiVo UI optional for additional cost (I suspect that Comcast is handling it the same way); if you don't subscribe, you get the old IPG, Passport or SARA. However, any such other packages would also have to be offered by the cable provider--they will always control what's running on their boxes.

I know that Passport and SARA had provisions for development of custom extensions. The VOD menus and stuff like the see-your-bill-pay-it-on-your-STB thing are examples of that. I'd expect that TiVo's port also has the same feature.With regard to the Tivo ports, I agree completely. I was talking about the S3 software. I honestly don't know where that software originates, from the headend or from Tivo through the headend. I suspect it's a pass-through via broadband or something. Otherwise Tivo would need agreements with every cableco in order for the S3 to work, wouldn't it?

With regard to the Tivo ports, I agree completely. I was talking about the S3 software. I honestly don't know where that software originates, from the headend or from Tivo through the headend. I suspect it's a pass-through via broadband or something. Otherwise Tivo would need agreements with every cableco in order for the S3 to work, wouldn't it?

By S3, do you mean the Series3 proper or the TiVo port to the Moto/SA platforms ? Your wording is confusing me... Please don't refer to the TiVo/Comcast box as the S3, because it's not. The S3 is the TiVo Series3 box, and nothing else.

Of course, the software resides locally on the Series3. Updates are pulled from the TiVo home site locally to the box and installed. No interaction with the cable headend is required. I'm sure everyone knows this, just restating the facts.

On the port, I'm not so sure. After my 8300 resets/crashes (which is to say, frequently), on the next power up, it definitely downloads stuff from the headend. Both the DVR and Guide sections have a definite pause when you fire 'em up for the first time. It was the same way when I had Comcast with the 6412 DVR.

Paul,

No need to be beligerent or condescending yet again, but I'm sure you just can't help yourself. I said the S3 and that's what I mean. If I was referring to the Tivo port I would have said so, d*mn it. You can't even be civil when I agree with you, can you?

Anyway, the question/comment was how does the S3 get software updates, etc.? Does it still use a phone connection? Or does it use a broadband connection? Or does it go through the cable connection? Regardless of the answer though, there is no reason other 3rd parties can't use the same technique that Tivo uses with the S3 and that is the thrust of this part of the discussion.

PS. For The Other Dave - so much for what I said in PM, huh? :)

With regard to the Tivo ports, I agree completely. I was talking about the S3 software. I honestly don't know where that software originates, from the headend or from Tivo through the headend. I suspect it's a pass-through via broadband or something. Otherwise Tivo would need agreements with every cableco in order for the S3 to work, wouldn't it?The Series 3 comes loaded with its own firmware and doesn't get anything from the cable providers. It uses CableCARD(s) to access conditional access digital channels--you don't need anything from the cable provider to do that after you've registered the card with their system during installation. Firmware and guide updates for Series 3 are downloaded from a site on the Internet via broadband IP or by telephone modem (not the Internet), just like for Series 2.

Thanks, Mike, that's what I expected.

After my 8300 resets/crashes (which is to say, frequently), on the next power up, it definitely downloads stuff from the headend.It may download some things from the headend (it almost certainly refreshes guide data), but it doesn't download new firmware unless the checksum on the firmware it already has doesn't match what the headend tells it is current. It takes several minutes to download a new firmware push, much longer than reboot, after which it does the power-up reboot--I've seen it happen. Nothing is displayed on your television screen while it's happening, and it cycles gibberish through the LEDs.

KC,

There is no doubt you are correct about applications contracted for and provided by cableco's. Hopefully, there will be a suite of such offerings at different prices, perhaps Navigator on the low end, some form of Passport in the middle, and the Tivo port bringing up the high end. However, TWC seems to be going to a closed system, even with OCAP, by putting so much effort into Navigator and, if Diana's thread is to be believed, they seem to want to add the features users desire. This kind of hints that Navigator will be all there is to choose from. I haven't read anything about a Tivo port for TWC, just Comcast and Cox.

Like Paul said, and I agreed, users may be able to buy various OCAP boxes in retail stores/online (maybe anyway), and some of those will probably offer extras like DVD recorders, etc., but if users continue to be saddled with a single software/IPG package, that is still not much of a choice. My semi-ideal system would be where the cableco provides the IPG data and the users buys whatever hardware/software interface they desire, plug in the cable, and enjoy whatever features they are willing to pay for, including perhaps the number of days in the IPG. I could be wrong, but I suspect cableco's have access to at least 14 days worth of data, they only give us 7 because that may be all the current generation of boxes can handle, especially older boxes.

You are also right that satellite services limit you to what they offer, so why should cable be any different. But I don't think satellite has the same legacy equipment problem cable does. Like you mentioned, cable still supports Explorer 2100's and one can only imagine how limited they are. And like you also mentioned, the 8300 platform is now 5 years old itself, so it is limited too, though I haven't seen spec comparisons with the S3 regarding RAM, etc.?

At some point though, specs will almost have to be standardized, cable/satco's and consumers can't be expected to buy new hardware every couple of years or so. Had I started with the 3100, I'd already be through 4 different HD tuners in 4 years.

I believe the 8300 has more RAM than the 8000, so that should account for some of the speed increase. One question I have is how much RAM, etc., is needed for all the services, like On-Screen Caller ID, and can the current crop of boxes (8300, 6412, etc.) handle all they want to add? I was told at one point that Cox wants to get out of the hardware business, and OCAP could allow them to do that, but I don't know how accurate that was and I don't know how consumers would react.

I have no problem buying a DVR, but it's not like replacing VCR. Since it relies heavily on cable supplied data and software, there has to be some assurance it will continue to function for quite a long time and not be orphaned by an upgrade.

OCAP is really in place to allow TWC to select from several vendors for these application, rather than be locked into only the ones offered by SA, Aptiv and the like.OCAP is in place to enable the CE industry to create televisions and STBs which will run on any system and provide all services, including the interactive ones. Any device with OCAP and an M-CARD (Multistream Bidirectional CableCARD) can run the cable provider's IPG--Samsung and TWC have demonstrated the Digital Navigator running on a prototype Sammy television, with no cable STB involved. Everything was available: the guide, Impulse Pay Per View and Video On Demand, and all the service provider has to supply is the M-CARD. When DCAS comes in, they won't even need to provide that.

Mike,

Do you envision TWC providing Navigator as the only software platform? Or will they open their system to a Tivo port like COmcast and Cox? Do you expect retail DVRs to replace current cable DVRs (8300, 8240, 6412, etc.)?

OCAP is in place to enable the CE industry to create televisions and STBs which will run on any system and provide all services, including the interactive ones. Any device with OCAP and an M-CARD (Multistream Bidirectional CableCARD) can run the cable provider's IPG--Samsung and TWC have demonstrated the Digital Navigator running on a prototype Sammy television, with no cable STB involved. Everything was available: the guide, Impulse Pay Per View and Video On Demand, and all the service provider has to supply is the M-CARD. When DCAS comes in, they won't even need to provide that.

I thought that the "M-Cards" were multi-stream, unidirectional capable cards. Effectively, CableCard 1.5. They're just now appearing on the market. And that bidirectionality doesn't get introduced until CableCard 2.0, which is still vaporware.

FWIW, here's a couple of links I googled:

http://www.samsung.com/PressCenter/PressRelease/PressRelease.asp?seq=20060111_0000224667

http://www.appliancemagazine.com/news.php?article=8381&zone=0&first=1

I understand that NON DVR boxes will get more features than they had with Passport. Such as being able to use a keyboard to spell out Titles you want to search for. This was only available on DVR's with Passport. I am down south of you in the Waldo area where Everest started to offer service. The stopped and concentrated on Johnson County KS.

I have an 8300HD DVR and 2 standard SA boxes.



No you won't need a new box unless the Navigator doesn't load on your box and it ends up dead. You will access OnDemand with Navigator in a different manner and have different graphics for a guide.I hear it is much slower to load the guide.

Navigator only effects Digital Cable boxes, your analog service will not be effected. So the TV's you don't have a box on will work just like normal.


Thanks for the info. I'll be waiting for this little upgrade. I have never searched for a title before, I just see whats available. I guess I will try it out when I get it though.

KC,

You are absolutely correct, those legacy boxes probably account for a lot of defficiencies, but if some cableco's can use something more robust than SARA, why can't they all? TWC seems to be going backward at the moment with Navigator, since Passport seems quicker, etc., but it's hard to believe this isn't just because they are trying to standardize their system so they can implement more things in the coming year.

One thing to remember is that the people who are probably most affected, and most vocal, about the switch to Navigator are their DVR customers and that is still a relatively small, but growing, segment. If it's as bad as people say, they are going to have to do some heavy promoting in order to keep customers from switching.

I have the same concerns with 3rd party equipment as you do. There are already enough cableco's saying they don't support SATA expansion, what's to prevent them from saying they also don't support your 3rd party OCAP-compatible tuner/DVR and suggesting that you lease theirs, assuming they will still offer one? Of course, they do support 3rd party cable modems as long as you select one for the authorized list and 3rd party tuner/DVRs could work the same way.

I don't know what Everest Cable offers in KC, but unless it's better than Navigator, I don't know how many people will switch for that reason alone, especially if there is some compensation and a believable promise of fixes involved. I'm sure they've crunched the numbers and have a pretty good idea of what the impact will be.

Many of us have been stuck with SARA from day one so we don't really know what we are missing, but for TWC to step backwards with Navigator in the middle of the game seems somewhat foolish, at least for the short term. We SARA users always have promises of something better coming (when already?) and our only choices are to switch to satellite or shell out $$$ for an S3, so most of simply do the best we can with what we've got. :)

For some reason there doesn't seem to be anyone from either Lincoln or San Diego posting in this thread. It could be that they are sticking with the local Lincoln and San Diego threads, so you might check those out.

I was told by Customer Care here in KC when I asked about the 8300MR, that there were no plans to launch MR, it was in testing in Charlotte and NYC.........AFAIK, unless something has changed, the current MR needs another box in each room and only distributes SD. That means you'd have to pay for the MR in one room, multiple boxes in other rooms, and then you'd be limited to SD in the other rooms. I also don't know if it works with a 2100 or if it requires something newer, like a 3250 or something.

I thought that the "M-Cards" were multi-stream, unidirectional capable cards. Effectively, CableCard 1.5. They're just now appearing on the market. And that bidirectionality doesn't get introduced until CableCard 2.0, which is still vaporware.In fact, there is no "directionality" in M-CARDs--they are backward compatible with singe-stream unidirectional devices and will work in bidirectional hosts. Support for unidirectional or bidirectional communication is in the card host. I haven't heard of any plan for devices using M-CARD for multi-service authorization/decryption in a unidirectional device (which I assume would be your CableCARD 1.5), though there's no reason why it wouldn't work. TiVo's STBs may make use of M-CARDs that way, though it won't solve their problem with SDV.

CableCARD 2.0 is not "vaporware", as such, unless you consider all unreleased, undeployed technology to be vaporware. The specs are done, products have been developed and interoperability testing has been performed (there was supposedly a group of 24 vendors involved in one such testing event). The FCC has mandated deployment of separable security in the STBs used by the cable operators by mid-2007, which needs CableCARD 2, and all the major MSOs have announced planned roll-outs; some of them have it in beta-test (in small communities--TWC is testing their OCAP Digital Navigator on those prototype Samsung TVs deployed in homes in Gastonia, NC). The MSOs have already had a 2-year extension of on using separable conditional access; I don't think they'll get another.

CableCARD 2 is a set of technologies, including the bidirectional host interface, M-CARD and OCAP. The MSOs could deploy bidirectional. I'm not entirely sure that OCAP support is required by the FCC--it would be possible to have an STB running Passport with a bidirectional interface and M-CARD which would satisfy the FCC's requirement for separable security. However, the FCC might further require that the eventual separable security running on consumer-owned devices give access to all services, interactive or not. They need OCAP to do that.

In fact, there is no "directionality" in M-CARDs--they are backward compatible with singe-stream unidirectional devices and will work in bidirectional hosts. Support for unidirectional or bidirectional communication is in the card host. I haven't heard of any plan for devices using M-CARD for multi-service authorization/decryption in a unidirectional device (which I assume would be your CableCARD 1.5), though there's no reason why it wouldn't work. TiVo's STBs may make use of M-CARDs that way, though it won't solve their problem with SDV.

CableCARD 2.0 is not "vaporware", as such, unless you consider all unreleased, undeployed technology to be vaporware. The specs are done, products have been developed and interoperability testing has been performed (there was supposedly a group of 24 vendors involved in one such testing event). The FCC has mandated deployment of separable security in the STBs used by the cable operators by mid-2007, which needs CableCARD 2, and all the major MSOs have announced planned roll-outs; some of them have it in beta-test (in small communities--TWC is testing their OCAP Digital Navigator on those prototype Samsung TVs deployed in homes in Gastonia, NC). The MSOs have already had a 2-year extension of on using separable conditional access; I don't think they'll get another.

CableCARD 2 is a set of technologies, including the bidirectional host interface, M-CARD and OCAP. The MSOs could deploy bidirectional. I'm not entirely sure that OCAP support is required by the FCC--it would be possible to have an STB running Passport with a bidirectional interface and M-CARD which would satisfy the FCC's requirement for separable security. However, the FCC might further require that the eventual separable security running on consumer-owned devices give access to all services, interactive or not. They need OCAP to do that.

Wow. Nice post. Lots of good info there, Thanks.

Do you envision TWC providing Navigator as the only software platform? Or will they open their system to a Tivo port like COmcast and Cox? Do you expect retail DVRs to replace current cable DVRs (8300, 8240, 6412, etc.)?I know that TWC doesn't have any current plans to offer TiVo, but they could offer it, just as Cox is offering TiVo as an option, with you getting SARA or Passport as the default.

As for 3rd party OCAP DVRs into which your provider downloaded his IPG, my problem is how do you market such a thing? It doesn't do anything without your cable provider's downloads, or does it have its own built-in IPG that you can show in ads?

There should be a way for devices to load "ala carte" OCAP-implemented features, like VOD and IPPV, while keeping their own IPGs. This would be a good way for TiVo to go; their IPG is what their fans want, but it'd be nice if TiVo users had access to current and future interactive services.

KC,

:) I remember that post.

There is no doubt TWC and other cableco's have their work cut out. DVRs are becoming standard options and even I am getting restless for OCAP and the promised enhancements to come. While my 8300 with SARA has not given me any trouble and it works for me alongside TitanTV and daily HDTVMagazine emails, it would be nice to have more Tivo-like features in a software package that other cableco's are using too. My priority though is more HD and then software enhancements. Then too, when Qwest here offers an HD DVR and adds service to my area, I may have to look at that. We'll see what things look like mid-2007. :)

I am surprised more Lincoln and San Diego folks don't join these discussions to provide more actual experience than all the supposition here. How long will folks like you put up with Navigator before abandoning ship, especially without any kind of idea how long changes take and what direction the software is going?

I am surprised more Lincoln and San Diego folks don't join these discussions to provide more actual experience than all the supposition here. How long will folks like you put up with Navigator before abandoning ship, especially without any kind of idea how long changes take and what direction the software is going?


Maybe they've already all gotten their S3's and have no need to discuss this flawed Navigator software. :)

Maybe they've already all gotten their S3's and have no need to discuss this flawed Navigator software. :)They haven't taken Passport away from my area yet (El Segundo/Torrance/Gardena), but i've already ordered an S3 (my first Tivo ever). My master plan is to turn in two of my three SA DVRS, then keep the one 8300HD to supplement the Tivo :)

Well, it's all but confirmed that TiVo is indeed working on an OCAP port of their software. Not that this is a surprise to anyone. A recent filing by the NCTA, TWC and Comcast to the FCC puts it out there in black and white that it's happening right now. LINKY (http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6518710599)

It's only a single reference, and it's on page 3 if you don't want to read the whole filing. Which isn't necessarily a bad idea, since the filing really degenerates into a whole lot of pro-OCAP boosterism and anti-CEA rhetoric rather quickly. I could only stomach reading about half of the document before closing it up. Simply pages and pages of whining about how awesome OCAP is, how draconian the FCC is, and how brutish and hostile the CEA is. Blah, blah, blah...

They haven't taken Passport away from my area yet (El Segundo/Torrance/Gardena), but i've already ordered an S3 (my first Tivo ever). My master plan is to turn in two of my three SA DVRS, then keep the one 8300HD to supplement the Tivo :)

I have to ask - is it wise to order a box that will not work with SDV - with your cable company moving to a new software version primarily to start using SDV???

xnappo

I have to ask - is it wise to order a box that will not work with SDV - with your cable company moving to a new software version primarily to start using SDV???Yes SDV was a concern, but most of what i record is local HD broadcasts so i can record that via the OTA tuner and leave the cable company out of it. I also record some HDNet/DiscoveryHD/INHD1 which my cable company claims will not be switched, and if they switch the few regular non-HD cable channels that i watch i can just start recording them on the one remaining SA8300HD. My local TWC office said they'll only be switching the lesser-watched channels so there's only a small chance of it affecting me, and will only mean i have to record switched channels onto my 8300HD instead of my TiVo which isn't a big deal.

I've been wanting a TiVo for many years so this Navigator changeover coupled with the recent availability of the S3 made me decide to go for it.

Well, it's all but confirmed that TiVo is indeed working on an OCAP port of their software.Yes--it's seems that they've changed their tune. They had a lot of negative things to say about it at first--I can recall reading one of the officers pretty flatly state that he thought that it was a bad idea as specified.

After I read that document you linked to, I called my friend who works on one of the TiVo firmware teams (ad features). He says that, while they've been working on the platform-specific ports the MSOs let them know that OCAP and platform-independence for their offerings was where they were headed, so they've basically kowtowed to that. In one way I know that this is cool with them--I interviewed them for a job a couple of years back (ended that job search with a disability retirement). Their software architects are very gung-ho on true object-oriented development--they were doing everything in C++ back then and the switch to a Java profile shouldn't be very traumatic.

The cool thing about that is that you should eventually be able to use TiVo on 3rd party OCAP DVRs if you cable operator offers it. (That's if any such things should ever come to market--again, how do you sell a device with no native UI? Look at the plethora of AV/HDDs available out there :D). Manufacturers could even take to embedding HDDs in their monitors--Mitsubishi has several monitors with embedded DVRs; you could download the the TiVo GUI into those as well.

I found the following quote from the document that Paul Simoneau linked to interesting, especially the word "targeted." I had thought that OCAP would be deployed much sooner (middle of 2007).

Approximately 4 million homes are passed with OCAP today and OCAP deployment in Time Warner, Comcast and Cox systems is targeted by the end of 2008.

I think maybe they're talking about full deployment across all of their systems, nationwide. Again, I don't think that OCAP is required by the FCC--just separable security. All the boxes that they deploy after 1 July 2007 can't have embedded conditional access methods and have to use CableCARDs of some kind. They can achieve that without OCAP.

Yes--it's seems that they've changed their tune. They had a lot of negative things to say about it at first--I can recall reading one of the officers pretty flatly state that he thought that it was a bad idea as specified.


Well, I suppose you could refer to it as TiVo changing their tune. I would probably classify it as TiVo being dragged into it. They bitched about OCAP when there was a chance of making a change in the direction of software deployments for the cableco's. Now that OCAP is a near-certainty, they have no choice but to go ahead and go along with it.

though it won't solve their problem with SDV.

What will then? From just casual reading I was under the impression that the whole problem with SDV and CableCard was the fact that the current CableCard implementation (or card host I guess is more accurate) is not bidirectional? I must not have the whole picture and it sounds like you do. Maybe a short and sweet primer on CableCard and SDV? This might not be the right forum for it, but it would be nice to have a single source for a accurate definition, and it sounds like you have the knowledge to provide one.

What will then? From just casual reading I was under the impression that the whole problem with SDV and CableCard was the fact that the current CableCard implementation (or card host I guess is more accurate) is not bidirectional? I must not have the whole picture and it sounds like you do. Maybe a short and sweet primer on CableCard and SDV? This might not be the right forum for it, but it would be nice to have a single source for a accurate definition, and it sounds like you have the knowledge to provide one.In the context in which I stated that, I was making the point that M-CARDs without bidirectionality could benefit TiVo, since it could be used to authenticate and decode multiple channels simultaneously. That doesn't require bidirectional communication.

Right now, SDV is integral to the proprietary, platform-specific code in cable boxes. An OCAP-capable host (which, by definition, implements the bidirectional host interface) can be programmed with the SDV protocols. These are interactive--the box has to ask for a service (i.e., television channel) and receive a response from the network telling it what frequency and program number the stream containing the service is in your neighborhood.

I mentioned before that there's an initiative to define a standard SDV protocol which could be implemented in a light weight fashion by cable "thin clients" which can't sell for enough to justify the added cost of a processor and memory sufficient to host OCAP.

You can find a primer on CableCARD technology here (http://www.opencable.com/primer/cablecard_primer.html); there's a primer on OCAP here (http://www.ctam.com/ocap/). Enjoy :).

You can find a primer on CableCARD technology here (http://www.opencable.com/primer/cablecard_primer.html); there's a primer on OCAP here (http://www.ctam.com/ocap/). Enjoy :).

Thanks much!

Someone wanted to know what Navigator looks like and how it works. Here is the TWC link to how to use it.

Navigator - OnDemand - How to use it (http://www.timewarnercable.com/CustomerService/AonDemand/AonDemand.ashx) .Is this a genuine link?

Doesn't work using Firefox. Pretty much a blank "frame" page with no innards inside the boxes where you'd think something would be.

With IE7 I got a first dialog to fill in your zip code, but then the second page is empty like that first page I got with Firefox.

Anyway, am I supposed to be seeing something "real"? Or is that your point... that the geniuses at TWC can't build a working web page??

Is this a genuine link?

Doesn't work using Firefox. Pretty much a blank "frame" page with no innards inside the boxes where you'd think something would be.

With IE7 I got a first dialog to fill in your zip code, but then the second page is empty like that first page I got with Firefox.

Anyway, am I supposed to be seeing something "real"? Or is that your point... that the geniuses at TWC can't build a working web page??

The link is broken. The Time Warner websites are set up to provide different content based on your location. I am not sure how to link to a particular region's content.

xnappo

The link is broken. The Time Warner websites are set up to provide different content based on your location. I am not sure how to link to a particular region's content.

xnappo

Go to their main WEB site www.timewarnercable.com and enter a ZIP code for a city within the region you want.

This should transfer you to the WEB site for that region's Time Warner provider.
According to www.usps.com 64105 is a ZIP code withing Kansas City, MO.

By the way when I tried to enter www.timewarnercable.com a second time in my WEB browser, it still took me to my local Time Warner site, but there was a selection to enter a new location at the top of the WEB page.

Guys (and Gals), And what is wrong with the link provided on THE VERY FIRST POST on this thread? :rolleyes:

Okay--I give up. What is wrong with that link? It brings me to a page labelled "Time Warner Cable's Digital Cable DVR" on TWC Nebraska's website.

EDIT: I get it. You meant "why don't you just use the link on the first post in this thread?" in response to all of the preceding chat about what zipcode to use, etc. Nevermind :D.

Okay--I give up. What is wrong with that link? It brings me to a page labelled "Time Warner Cable's Digital Cable DVR" on TWC Nebraska's website.

EDIT: I get it. You meant "why don't you just use the link on the first post in this thread?" in response to all of the preceding chat about what zipcode to use, etc. Nevermind :D.

Sorry to waste more space but:
1. It wasn't clear from the post that the content was the same as the link on the first page - I still wish someone would post some large images!
2. My guess this link isn't working for people with cookies for their zip code.

xnappo

I still wish someone would post some large images!The pictures in that Answers On Demand (http://www.timewarnercable.com/CustomerService/AonDemand/AonDemand.ashx) page seem pretty large and clear.

I'm using IE7 too and I get a blank window with menu items along the left side, nothing about ZIP code. I click on any of the menu items and get info & movie in the window.

The pictures in that Answers On Demand (http://www.timewarnercable.com/CustomerService/AonDemand/AonDemand.ashx) page seem pretty large and clear.

Hmm, I guess that depends on your definition - to me those are tiny. I am talking 1024x768 at least, with more examples of displays while fast forwarding, hitting the iinfo button while watching a program etc...

xnappo

Hmm, I guess that depends on your definition - to me those are tiny. I am talking 1024x768 at least, with more examples of displays while fast forwarding, hitting the iinfo button while watching a program etc...

xnappoThose would seem to be 640x400--what information do you think might be on those menus that they're too small to show? Why do you need larger images?

You didn't say anything about content before. I agree--there's nothing in that "Answers On Demand" page about controlling DVR playback or manipulating live TV. Except for that DVR section, which seems to be about recording things more than anything else, the "answers" are all about the IPG in general, which would run on non-DVRs.

Those would seem to be 640x400--what information do you think might be on those menus that they're too small to show? Why do you need larger images?

You didn't say anything about content before. I agree--there's nothing in that "Answers On Demand" page about controlling DVR playback or manipulating live TV. Except for that DVR section, which seems to be about recording things more than anything else, the "answers" are all about the IPG in general, which would run on non-DVRs.

I can tell the general color scheme from those pics, but can't get a good feel for the font choice etc..

[EDIT] Disregard, I finally was able to get to the large pictures.

Looks hella better than Sara from what I can tell from those small pics though.

xnappo

While there are good reasons to settle on a single software platform, I do not think it's the prime reason for MDN. Ya gotta think in business terms, not technology. A single software platform works on the expense side of the ledger. OCAP (according to what I've read about it) provides them a source of brand new revenue! NEW business. Because, it represents the ability for the cable guys to create new interactive services. And "new services" mean new sources of revenue.

So we get the ideal business move, have the potential for expense reduction AND at the same time have technology in place to sell us new stuff.

Now SDV does neither, none. The money they are and will spend will not reduce expenses (maybe increase?) nor in itself generate new business (although it CAN be a factor in new business). However, SDV is very much needed BY the cable guys because of the competitive landscape. It seems that FIOS from the telcos is the single biggest threat to the cable guys. They already enjoy the benefit of being a legalized monopoly, I'm in a TWC city so I DO NOT have a choice to get Cablevision, Comcast etc. BUT it probably will take a few years, but some day in the future I'll have an actual choice. So, the cable guys HAVE to be in a position to deliver as many streams as the FIOS guys can.

Anyway, I'm sure I'll take tons of shots, so fire away.

While there are good reasons to settle on a single software platform, I do not think it's the prime reason for MDN. Ya gotta think in business terms, not technology. A single software platform works on the expense side of the ledger. OCAP (according to what I've read about it) provides them a source of brand new revenue! NEW business. Because, it represents the ability for the cable guys to create new interactive services. And "new services" mean new sources of revenue.


With the side benefit that they keep money in-house, since the development was done in-house. No cash going out to external developers any more.


So we get the ideal business move, have the potential for expense reduction AND at the same time have technology in place to sell us new stuff.

I'm still waiting for a list of these "new services" that makes any sense. Buy a pizza over my cable connection ? Yawn... We've been hearing that same old song and dance for years.


Now SDV does neither, none. The money they are and will spend will not reduce expenses (maybe increase?) nor in itself generate new business (although it CAN be a factor in new business). However, SDV is very much needed BY the cable guys because of the competitive landscape. It seems that FIOS from the telcos is the single biggest threat to the cable guys. They already enjoy the benefit of being a legalized monopoly, I'm in a TWC city so I DO NOT have a choice to get Cablevision, Comcast etc. BUT it probably will take a few years, but some day in the future I'll have an actual choice. So, the cable guys HAVE to be in a position to deliver as many streams as the FIOS guys can.

Ummm.... What ?

SDV is a short and medium term fix for the cable guys, to help 'em free up bandwidth. In the long term, they've got problems. They can monkey around all they want with how they allocate bandwidth, but at the end of the day, they're always gonna have less bandwidth than fiber. As HDTV becomes more prevalent, high-speed internet bandwidths increase, cable's shortcomings will become exposed. They're not quite at the point of re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, but I don't imagine it will be that long before they need to take a long hard look at their infrastructure.

Also, by fiber I really mean FTTH (fiber to the home), and not FTTN (fiber to the node). FTTN meets the market now, but will be near obsolescent 5-10 years from now. That relatively paltry 25 Mbps will tap out quite quickly as bandwidth utilizations increase in the near future.

Anyway, I'm sure I'll take tons of shots, so fire away.

Just with that 2nd paragraph's grammar. :)

While there are good reasons to settle on a single software platform, I do not think it's the prime reason for MDN. Ya gotta think in business terms, not technology. A single software platform works on the expense side of the ledger. OCAP (according to what I've read about it) provides them a source of brand new revenue! NEW business. Because, it represents the ability for the cable guys to create new interactive services. And "new services" mean new sources of revenue.A very large benefit from the OCAP DN is that they can give access to their current "Holy Trinity" of interactive services (IPG, IPPV and VOD) to people who buy OCAP capable televisions who don't want a leased STB. Before CableCARD, they could force everyone who wanted more than analog cable to take a box which would give them access to to those services; now, some folks who've purchased Digital Cable Ready televisions are opting to give up access to those services in order to dump their cable STBs and lower their monthly bill by a few bucks (probably less than $100/year, CableCARD vs STB). (I agree with Paul--I've yet to hear about any "new interactive services" that sound likely to generate any significant income. There's little that I can conceivably do on my television that I can't more conveniently do online. But then maybe I have a poor imagination is poor :)).

I disagree with your "SDV is a non-revenue generating thing made necessary by the need to compete with the coming FTTH services from the telcos" argument. SDV clears up bandwidth that can be used to generate revenue by other means than just cable television. They can offer ever higher datacomm rates to both consumers and businesses, for one thing.

One of the forthcoming "services" from cable that is being tested here is "Start-Over". This allows the viewer to view a program from the beginning IF they tune into the program while in progress. The viewer can pause and rewind, but not FF (past commercials). It seems to work quite well - however, at the moment, the number of networks that are available that way are pretty limited. But, from what I have heard, programmers are pretty much in favor of it - so we will see more of that. Another service that uses the same technology (as "Start-Over" and SDV) is nDVR (initially also named Mystro by TW). This is basically a networked DVR concept.

These, along with various On-Demand products are intended to compete with the satellite services. However, they are no defense against FTTH (FiOS, etc.)! That is a future threat, and one that cable can compete against by running fiber to the home as well. Satellite is a current threat and these products are intended to fight that. OCAP extends the playing field by enabling all future devices to work with these new services. Cable makes their money by delivering (and charging for) services. Owning and leasing STBs takes capital and does not yield the best return. Till now, the have been a necessary evil - once OCAP is in place, cable will no longer have to do that.

I have a couple of questions for people with Navigator after looking through the 'Answers on Demand'

1. Can you still change the aspect ratio/zoom using the '#' key on the remote?
2. Can you still select the date from the 'Guide'?

Thanks,
xnappo

So Dave how much different does it look than SARA.Everything "looks" better than SARA, but the problems remain. It doesn't matter how different it looks, what matters is function and availablity, the latter being the most important. :)

I've used (sparingly) Passport at my daughter's in North Carolina, Moxi at my sisiter's in Wisconsin, SARA here at home, and DirecTV at my neighbor's cabin. There are aspects of each that I like (or I should say that I don't mind). SARA does the job of recording what I want and it's been pretty bullett-proof for me for the past 2 years. Passport and Moxi expand on SARA by adding keyboard entry for advanced searching (something I almost never use), by displaying the IPG, recorded programs and programs to be recorded, in different ways, etc.

All those items enhance the functionality for many folks, but I can't remember a single item from either that I miss when I'm back home using SARA. The only item I could use is the Tivo Wish List, so I wouldn't have to rely in TitanTV, especially when I'm away on vacation. I did like being able to view IPG data for a given channel, much like I do using TitanTV. SARA limits that to the 1.5+ hour by 5 channel grid with no other display options.

I didn't see a big difference in selecting items to record or selecting recordings to view other than some options. I didn't play around with series recordings on either because I wasn't going to be at either place long enough and it was summer rerun season. I did have some difficulty trying to help my daughter get Passport to allow her TV to properly expand SD channels and I'm not sure we ever got it set quite right. I wasn't subscribed to the Passort thread at that time. :)

I did get used to both fairly quickly though. I'm sure if I had used either for any length of time, I could have gotten used to the differences and would probably have come to like some features I didn't get to explore.

But, the bottomline for me has always been that until we actually have options to choose from, all the bashing of one over another and lamenting missing features is pretty much for naught. I would love to have Tivo software, but not at a higher cost. I've heard anywhere from $3-$10/mo for the Tivo port and that's over and above current costs. Tivo hardware is too expensive in a changing world. I've been through 3 different cable boxes in the 3 years I've had HD. Two of those were $500 each retail and I don't know what the 8300 would have cost. If I had had to buy each of those, I'd probably still be on my first box (non-DVR).

However, once things stabilize with OCAP, etc., I might then be persuaded to invest in a purchased DVR. Hitachi just announced a 1T drive for $399 specifically for DVRs. Being able to purchase a DVR with that kind of capacity and the ability to run different software with varying degrees of functionality based on cost will go a long way toward making the DVR a standard piece of equipment. The unknown factor is what impact things like Start Over, more VOD, etc., will have on the long term need for a DVR. If I can't get 8-10 years worth of use, it just doesn't seem prudent to buy one vs continuing to rent the latest from cable.

One of the forthcoming "services" from cable that is being tested here is "Start-Over". This allows the viewer to view a program from the beginning IF they tune into the program while in progress. The viewer can pause and rewind, but not FF (past commercials). It seems to work quite well - however, at the moment, the number of networks that are available that way are pretty limited. But, from what I have heard, programmers are pretty much in favor of it - so we will see more of that. Another service that uses the same technology (as "Start-Over" and SDV) is nDVR (initially also named Mystro by TW). This is basically a networked DVR concept.

I am VERY aware of what Start Over is. I work for a company that is one of the main suppliers for this feature, and I'm directly involved in the development of the product/project.

The cablecos are in favor of this, exactly because it's not likely to get them sued as nDVR will. The content providers have their panties in a bunch about nDVR, and are trying to destroy it via law suits. StartOver isn't enough of a threat to make that big a fuss over. So, it'll likely succeed because it isn't innovative enough.



These, along with various On-Demand products are intended to compete with the satellite services. However, they are no defense against FTTH (FiOS, etc.)! That is a future threat, and one that cable can compete against by running fiber to the home as well. Satellite is a current threat and these products are intended to fight that. OCAP extends the playing field by enabling all future devices to work with these new services. Cable makes their money by delivering (and charging for) services. Owning and leasing STBs takes capital and does not yield the best return. Till now, the have been a necessary evil - once OCAP is in place, cable will no longer have to do that.

You really think that cableco's are gonna run fiber, when they've already got an existing cable infrastructure in place ? Put down the crack pipe. They're gonna try to squeeze as much as they can out of that existing cable before they even consider laying fiber. DOCSIS 3.0 will be a slight reprieve, but in the end FTTH simply has too many advantages.

Satellite's cooked unless they change their business model. The latencies are too high to provide voice or data services effectively, so they're locked into a video-only business. Put that up against the triple-play (voice,video,data) that the cableco's and telco's can roll out, and it spells doom for the satellite guys (turd bird, indeed).

I disagree with your "SDV is a non-revenue generating thing made necessary by the need to compete with the coming FTTH services from the telcos" argument. SDV clears up bandwidth that can be used to generate revenue by other means than just cable television. They can offer ever higher datacomm rates to both consumers and businesses, for one thing.

Oh I agree, I did hedge that by saying it could be a factor in new revenue generation. Remember I said NEW business; freeing up bandwidth and offering potentially more bandwidth for data isn't really "new" business. If I left the impression I thought SDV had no relation to revenue generation, I did not do so intentionally.

I'm still waiting for a list of these "new services" that makes any sense. Buy a pizza over my cable connection ? Yawn... We've been hearing that same old song and dance for years.




Ummm.... What ?

SDV is a short and medium term fix for the cable guys, to help 'em free up bandwidth. In the long term, they've got problems. They can monkey around all they want with how they allocate bandwidth, but at the end of the day, they're always gonna have less bandwidth than fiber. As HDTV becomes more prevalent, high-speed internet bandwidths increase, cable's shortcomings will become exposed. They're not quite at the point of re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, but I don't imagine it will be that long before they need to take a long hard look at their infrastructure.

Also, by fiber I really mean FTTH (fiber to the home), and not FTTN (fiber to the node). FTTN meets the market now, but will be near obsolescent 5-10 years from now. That relatively paltry 25 Mbps will tap out quite quickly as bandwidth utilizations increase in the near future.



Just with that 2nd paragraph's grammar. :)

Hmmm, my second paragraph appears to contain proper grammar... maybe you meant first or third?

The point I was trying to make was that as I understood it, MDN being an OCAP application "sets the stage for" and "allows" new 2 way things to happen. How they take advantage of it is another issue entirely. AND what we individually think of each possible service isn't as relevant as we think it might be.

In my area, cable is very much fiber to the node already, has been for 2-3 years already. NOBODY is even thinking that FIOS will mean fiber into my apartment, it's going to be fiber to a node as well.

You really think that cableco's are gonna run fiber, when they've already got an existing cable infrastructure in place ? Put down the crack pipe. They're gonna try to squeeze as much as they can out of that existing cable before they even consider laying fiber. DOCSIS 3.0 will be a slight reprieve, but in the end FTTH simply has too many advantages.

Satellite's cooked unless they change their business model. The latencies are too high to provide voice or data services effectively, so they're locked into a video-only business. Put that up against the triple-play (voice,video,data) that the cableco's and telco's can roll out, and it spells doom for the satellite guys (turd bird, indeed).

Uh, I do NOT do crack and trust me, TWC-NYC operates on fiber! And neither it nor Verizon are going to do fiber to the home anytime soon. In my market.

Matter of fact, a lot of the services we take for granted did NOT happen here until they laid fiber. DTV and RR only came to me ONLY when they got the fiber laid up here. The curious thing is that they basically started at the southern end of Manhattan, then traveled north. Alphabet City (less expensive housing compromising, a lot of tenement buildings) got fiber goodness a good 18 months before I did.

Now it's also obvious to me that what a cable co does here isn't any guarantee what will happen elsewhere. BUT I'd be almost willing to bet that replacing cooper with fiber is less costly than running brand new fiber.

Hmmm, my second paragraph appears to contain proper grammar... maybe you meant first or third?

You're right. It was the third, starting "Now SDV does, neither..." The second paragraph was only a sentence. Sorry for the mix up.


In my area, cable is very much fiber to the node already, has been for 2-3 years already. NOBODY is even thinking that FIOS will mean fiber into my apartment, it's going to be fiber to a node as well.

Makes sense for multi-tenant structures to leave it FTTN (node in basement). Residential is a more likely target for FTTH.

Now it's also obvious to me that what a cable co does here isn't any guarantee what will happen elsewhere. BUT I'd be almost willing to bet that replacing cooper with fiber is less costly than running brand new fiber.

This last sentence makes me curious.

Why would a cableco outlay a huge chunk of cash, when (in their minds) they've already got a capable infrastructure laid out ? Obviously, this doesn't apply to cablecos which already have fiber laid out, which I have to assume is in the minority right now.

Also, why do you think that laying fiber is less expensive than laying cable ? Splicing fiber is a hell of a lot harder than traditional cable, you need to upgrade to optical transmission gear versus the commonplace cable stuff, and so on and so on...

I am Anxiously awating the OCAP version to be rolled out on to Motorola STB'S does anybody have any updates on the work in progress or a possible release date?

BAM-SLAM-The Time Warner Nebraska site has a letter announceing major new Navigator softwae upgrade.The ones I rember are new time/channel recording option that can be used more than once.Icon in recorded list to let you know when show will be deleated-enhanced banner control-more detailed show information and the best one new enhanced graphics the blue gone new vibtrant tivo like colors replaceing them.They also state this is the first of many upgrades that will be added system wide to those who have navigator.Seems they are heading in the right direction.Check the letter out for yourselfs.Maybe us critics jumped the gun before we saw the finished product.

For those of you who wish to read it, the letter can be found here:

http://www.timewarnercable.com/MediaLibrary/4/49/Content%20Management/Products%20And%20Services/documents/PostLaunch.pdf

You have to change the aspect/zoom from the Menu, the remote key didn't work on my friends HDDVR that I used Navigator on.

That blows! I use that a lot. JP1 macro time I guess.


I am not sure what you mean by select date from the Guide. You sort by time and catagory. Can you explain how you use date?

On Sara, if I am looking at 7pm Monday night and want to see what is on 7pm Thursday, I can hit 'B' and scroll down to 'Thursday' and the guide will change to 7pm Thursday.

xnappo

I am not sure how you use TitanTv, as with Navigator you will not be able to do manual recordings. You have to select the show from the IPG, no other options. So if you are using TitanTv to enter manual record time you will HATE, Navigator.I only use TitanTV to search for programming much like Tivo's Wish List. When the program shows up in their database, I get an email letting me know when it's on so I can then go into my IPG and schedule it for recording.
I am sure Cable wants us to buy our own boxes, the old STB inventory is going to be costly to replace.Some people don't agree. They think hardware rental is a cash-cow, but I agree with you, I think they'd rather get out of the hardware business. The ROI on most DVRs today is around 4-5 years, so we need to get at least that much usage out of them to justify the purchase vs rental.
I would think hardware is going to last 2-5 year, just like you Desktop/Laptop. It is planned obsolescence. Both software and hardware companies make money by making your hardware Landfill junk.I've had my 8300 for 2 years now and fully expect it will be viable for at least another 2-5 depending on what the retail marketplace actually offers once OCAP is in play. Of course, I am leaning toward buying whatever looks good, if that's what actually happens. I think the jury is still out on exactly what OCAP means hardware-wise.

This last sentence makes me curious.

Why would a cableco outlay a huge chunk of cash, when (in their minds) they've already got a capable infrastructure laid out ? Obviously, this doesn't apply to cablecos which already have fiber laid out, which I have to assume is in the minority right now.

Also, why do you think that laying fiber is less expensive than laying cable ? Splicing fiber is a hell of a lot harder than traditional cable, you need to upgrade to optical transmission gear versus the commonplace cable stuff, and so on and so on...

Here TWC HAD a "complete" cooper infrastructure They replaced large portions of it with fiber. The reasoning was that they were able to THEN offer new services and generate NEW revenue. When they went online with the fiber node by me, I could then get DTV and RR. I could not "buy" these services with the old cooper system (my guess was that the cooper system didn't have near enough overall bandwidth, remember the population density is quite large here). So they "instantly" got some new business form me.

Now I did not say "laying" I said replace the cooper with fiber. Tearing up all the streets happened long ago. And "tearing up the streets" is a far, far bigger deal in a heavily trafficed a city like NYC.

Buying vs. renting cable STBs is an interesting question. However, we need to look at the issue from a customer perspective. When I wanted to go DVR, it was TiVo/Replay vs. TWC. Totally no contest. The monthly charge was MORE for a non-TWC solution. AND the TWC solution included the rental of the box. PLUS, by renting the box, I have essentially a lifetime warranty. If I even think my box is misbehaving, I can easily swap it.

PLUS, when we look at today, we see an 800 dollar STB from TiVo and a 12 buck a month cost. Aside from the IPG, it needs 2 cable cards... so there's additional monthly rental of those cards from the cable company. So there's even MORE of a spread when you look at similar capabilities (i.e. dual tuners in a DVR).

Honestly, I'm not at all sure I'm that anxious to be having to buy my own box outright.

I call my friend and had him check. The "B" on Navigator brings up Finds Shows and lets you search by Title, Category, Rating. Not by Date or Time.

But the announcement from Lincoln says something about Time.

Thanks for checking with your friend.

There is a new PDF on the Nebraska site explaining some more features. You can change date in the guide by pressing a number button for the number of days ahead to go, and then the right arrow key. Also some remotes have a day key you can hit, so this could also be programmed in to universal remotes.

I also see a very welcome feature(that we don't have with Sara, dunno about Passport) that you can set up the guide to show your favorite channels first!

xnappo

Here TWC HAD a "complete" cooper infrastructure......Dag nab it! It's COPPER, cooper is a tire. :) :D :)

Thanks for checking with your friend.

I also see a very welcome feature(that we don't have with Sara, dunno about Passport) that you can set up the guide to show your favorite channels first!

xnappo

I would love that feature!

I'm still on SARA and I hate the way the guide is organized (and overloaded with uselss channels).