I don't disagree with any of your logic - but I
was told by SONY at CES - that the ONLY show
they would announce a NEW PJ at is CEDIA.

Therefore - I doubt they would wait until CEDIA
2008 for a VW200 announcement. That is giving
away much too much market opportunity to the
Competition.
I hope you're correct, I'm very interested in this PJ... assuming the price is under the current Ruby.

I hope you're correct, I'm very interested in this PJ... assuming the price is under the current Ruby.

It would be a replacement for the Ruby - I doubt
it would be priced under the Ruby. That is what
the VW60 is for.

It would be a replacement for the Ruby - I doubt
it would be priced under the Ruby. That is what
the VW60 is for.

Exactly...

Still hoping for a long lasting 700-800W Xenon bulb, high-end lens options, and much improved native contrast similar to the RS-1... Sony has to make a big show with the Diamond, otherwise the RS-1 remains king.

Make it hands down no contest over the RS-1, otherwise why bother... The amethyst is the bargain unit, the diamond has much to prove... Charge $15,000+ and still make me say it is a bargain, that is the kind of performance I'm looking for....

Charge $15,000+ and still make me say it is a bargain, that is the kind of performance I'm looking for....
And how many would they sell, 10, 100, 500 :) ?

100,000+ if it is a breakthrough product :)

The name "Diamond" from sony is a planned subliminal thing. Always looking for ways around the WF when we want to buy something new for the HT system. Mention the name "Diamond" and "buy it" quickly rolls off her tongue :)


Yet this never seems to work when I offer to give her a "pearl necklace". :D


Mike

Yet this never seems to work when I offer to give her a "pearl necklace". :D


Mike

:eek:

100,000+ if it is a breakthrough product :)
IIRC the total US market for HT pj >$3K was < 50,000 units in 2006, with the Ruby the leading individual seller.

Well guys. We are going to se the Sony diamond, the VPL-VW200 at Cedia. I don't know any details. But its going to be MSRP $15K. and it will be introduced at Cedia. A Qualia replacement. that's all I know.No specs. No details. The VPL-VW60 that MSRP will be $5000. Thats it. Do you know any deatils? No.

Well guys. We are going to se the Sony diamond, the VPL-VW200 at Cedia. I don't know any details. But its going to be MSRP $15K. and it will be introduced at Cedia. A Qualia replacement. that's all I know.No specs. No details. The VPL-VW60 that MSRP will be $5000. Thats it. Do you know any deatils? No.


http://www.rx8web.com/smilies/bouncy.gif http://www.rx8web.com/smilies/bouncy.gif http://www.rx8web.com/smilies/bouncy.gif http://www.rx8web.com/smilies/bouncy.gif http://www.rx8web.com/smilies/bouncy.gif

I am beginning to feel (that's right feel) it won't be introduced at Cedia. The VPL-VW60 will. You can bank on it. The VPL-VW50 has been discontinued and prices substantially lowered on existing stock. The VPL-VW100 which the VPL-VW200 would replace has not been discontinued. If Sony were going to show the 200 at Cedia it would have been discontinued by now. Just a feeling. Anything could happen but nobody here really knows anything. Check back in 5 weeks.


hey Mark, the VPL-VW50 is NOT discountinued yet. I sure it will be soon, just not yet. My uncle works for Sony headquarters in NJ and confirmed the Pearl is not yet discontinued.

To support this price, I think they will go to an external video processor and perhaps a lens for CIH.

Please, I hope they do not give us some useless outboard VP. At that price this will target videophile's who will want the choice of their own VP to maximize the product. Any time a company makes that decision for you its always blundered somehow falling short on performance. If it does come with a VP please leave it out and offer the projector for 10k unless the VP is something unique. Maybe it will include full sub pixel convergence adjustment allowing for perfect convergence..

The VPL-VW50 is not being manufactured any more. There is eisting stock and Sony has lowered the price on it. I think we are arquing semantics.Technically Sony will consider it discontinued in september but what's the difference. Existing stock is on sale.

I think we are arquing semantics.


I agree, I think we are too. :)

Let's speculate endlessly about what it won't and will have and what we want it to have or not have. however, nothing we say or do will now change whatever it will be.. It could be anything such as 2000 lumens, a great lens, quieter than Alan :). We just don't know but its Aan's bandwidth and it will keep you off the streets and out of trouble Let's see if you can make this thread 100 pages before anybody knows anything..

Mark

You are right. What ever it is it is. Im sure it will have some lumens. Let the speculations begin :)

We are all waiting for that projector to come along good enough to make you consider retiring your Marquee :)

Let's speculate endlessly about what it won't and will have and what we want it to have or not have. however, nothing we say or do will now change whatever it will be.. It could be anything such as 2000 lumens, a great lens, quieter than Alan :). We just don't know but its Aan's bandwidth and it will keep you off the streets and out of trouble Let's see if you can make this thread 100 pages before anybody knows anything..

Mark,
You can't pump the guy for information? Offer a few of those fat cigars. :D

Art

No Art. None of the guys has seen one yet or has any details. Sony has dealer trainings all around the country during July and August. Even the projector guy who does the training for the FPs hasn't seen the stuff or has any details. The road show training just goes over the old stuff. Guess who won't be attending that?

Let's see if I can imitate Cliffy. YO. BIG DAWG. Will you be attending Cedia? I gotta pre-order the strippers. Ya right. The only strippers I order are for wire.

Let's speculate endlessly about what it won't and will have and what we want it to have or not have. however, nothing we say or do will now change whatever it will be.. It could be anything such as 2000 lumens, a great lens, quieter than Alan :). We just don't know but its Aan's bandwidth and it will keep you off the streets and out of trouble Let's see if you can make this thread 100 pages before anybody knows anything..

Extra Lumens are always good.

My Theater is extremely well light controlled.
I also have a high-gain screen - so every lumen
counts :D There are scenes with my Ruby that
I actually think are too bright already. Control
over the Lumens is good to have.

I'd like to see minimum 120Hz and electronic
convergence so I can sharpen the picture even
more than the Ruby.

That is what I would look for and I know those
things were intended to be in the VW200. Did
they make it? I have no clue.

I'm sure it wil be 120hz. All the new Sony stuff has that. Even if we don't know, I'd bet 1000 to one on that. The projectors will run on electricity too. Definately no nuclear power on these guys.

I'm sure it wil be 120hz. All the new Sony stuff has that. Even if we don't know, I'd bet 1000 to one on that. The projectors will run on electricity too. Definately no nuclear power on these guys.

I agree with the 120Hz and Electricity :p

15k? Thats, well, I need laser or something for that :D

The projectors will run on electricity too. Definately no nuclear power on these guys.


Sorry Mark, thats incorrect as well. The new Sony Projectors will run on solar power! :p

Can't wait to see where this falls, one of my future upgrades will be to 20-25 FL from 10 ish.

I was thinking maybe about installing a wind sail powered generator in someones home theater to power it. Would solve some cooling issues as well. Trouble is how to get the outside wind down to he blades without compromising the light integrity of the home theater.

Re nuclear power, I was referring to internal to the projector. No problems with external power sources. I was kinda hoping that with an internal nuclear power source, electrical operating costs would be eliminated satisfying those huh WHAT $15K guys.

It better be groundbreaking for 15,000. I mean the latest good ones have all been less than 10,000! :eek:

It better be groundbreaking for 15,000. I mean the latest good ones have all been less than 10,000! :eek:

Thanks for the scoop on the Diamond at CEDIA Mark.

Regarding the price - at $15K MSRP I think its safe to say that Diamond will be at least 2 times as expensive as the RS1, perhaps even 3 times the price. No doubt it will find its buyers, particularly if it offers significantly more lumens than the RS1 at near otherwise similar specs (assuming Sony can meet those specs, which word here to date has made it sound like it cannot).

Even though I am very particular about the video quality, for my purposes I couldn't justify that level of investment in a pj that will (like all others) deprecate extremely quickly - especially given the price/performance of other pjs. Even if it was say a 25% improvement over the RS1 I don't think many are going to justify that additional expense. Except as mentioned - if it does have the extra lumens that may be a deciding factor for the elite, even those elite that are price conscious.

At any rate it is certainly great to see Sony will be introducing this new technology - the more choices for people the better.

I agree. I will not upgrade from my Ruby until there is a night and day difference. And at this point in time there still is not. I may end up keeping it for another year or two... There is no point investing that much in a pj that will be leap frogged a year later by one that costs half as much or even less (Qualia/Ruby)...

If it has the lumens of a Qualia OO4 and can match the specs of the RS1 but with CMS and a better lens, count me in. This would be the machine I have been waiting for to replace my Qualia.

Gee, maybe I could sell my 004 for $20,000, buy the Diamond for $15,000, and have serious change left over.

Gee, maybe I could sell my 004 for $20,000, buy the Diamond for $15,000, and have serious change left over.

That is how I got the latest and greatest Pre/Pro.

I sold my Lexicon MC12b and DVDO VP50 and
had money left over after I bought my Anthem
D2.

But it has to best the 004 in all parameters-not just ANSI contrast-and nothing out there has yet to do it IMNSHO.

I doubt you find many takers at 20,000 for a 004.

For digital hasn't made a large enough change to warrant an upgrade from my 004. Everything is still 1080P tops and digital still cannot come close to a fade to black. The Qualia has a great build quality and is dead quiet.

I thought the Qualia replacement would be along the lines ofthe Sim2 HT 500 or Titan. $15K list is pretty affordable for a Qualia like product.

But it has to best the 004 in all parameters-not just ANSI contrast-and nothing out there has yet to do it IMNSHO.

Yep, while this diamond will have the 4Cs in color, clarity, contrast and cost -- it will be interesting to see what it lacks compared to the more expensive 3-chip DLPs. I read somewhere speculation of it offering a 30,000:1 dynamic on/off CR. Would be nice though if that were native…

Exciting news! Cant wait for the CEDIA reports. I hope it is better in all parameters, that would be nice.

Yep, while this diamond will have the 4Cs in color, clarity, contrast and cost -- it will be interesting to see what it lacks compared to the more expensive 3-chip DLPs. I read somewhere speculation of it offering a 30,000:1 dynamic on/off CR. Would be nice though if that were native…

It has to be native, seriously, 15k!!
Just better optics and finetuning over the old Ruby isn't gonna cut it, big leap in on-off and ansi contrast is a start.

I thought the Qualia replacement would be along the lines ofthe Sim2 HT 500 or Titan. $15K list is pretty affordable for a Qualia like product.

I completely agree. Of course this assumes that this is, in fact, a replacement to the 004 Qualia...which it probably is. If they improve on the 004 with better on/off and ANSI contrast at half the price of the 004, it will find its buyers.

. YO. BIG DAWG. Will you be attending Cedia? I gotta pre-order the strippers. Ya right. The only strippers I order are for wire.

Yea, I'm going for sure now based on this and the PD 3 chip. I jumped on the digital treadmill so MUST...SEE..... WHAT'S NEXT....MUST.....SEE ...WHAT's...NEXT. :o.

Art

It has to be native, seriously, 15k!!


No way it is native 30,000:1 IMO.

It has to have the build quality of the 004.
Having suffered through previous QC issues with my former projector, the 004 has simply worked flawlessly since day one. The picture is beautiful, bright, colorful, with spot-on corner to corner focus, excellent registration, sharp with detail but at the same time a silky smoothness that I've never seen with those dancing mirrors projectors. ;)

Looks like I better book my flight...

Nobody has seen it yet. Nobody knows how it compares to an 004 or RS1. Nice to share your views on what it is worth or what its performance might be based on the known information. I won't replace my sub $5K machine with a say $12K machine because it JUST CAN'T be better enough. Better to just say I can't afford it. But really. It will be whatever it is and decisions should be based on that, not on speculation. If anyone here is that good a speculator, you are in the wrong profession whatever profession you are in.

This could be the baby to replace my CRT. We shall all soon see. 54 days or so?

the vw 200 is not the diamond.
its the ruby successor
and i am sure the price will be less than $ 15k.

No way it is native 30,000:1 IMO.

No, it can’t be. although, would be nice though if it exceeds the specs of the RS1 in on/off and Sharp’s in ansi cr. Anyway, before someone continues the preaching, as if there is nothing more unique to say, the 30,000:1 I read was only taken from another forum...similar to this…so please don’t even take it seriously.

I went to audition the HT5000 today in Houston at Audio Concepts.
A private viewing with me and a sales man watching HD recordings of star wars 'King Kong and planet earth.
Screen was 100 inch 16:9 1.3 gain.
20 minutes into the viewing another person joined in and started talking about video.
10 minutes later I found he was no other than Bill Cushman projector reviewer of widescreen review - he is a Houstonian.
We ended up talking for over one and half hours (the salesman left) about 15 minutes into our communication.
Great info , bottom line (his observation):
1 Qualia and HT 5000 are the only projectors who can light up super wide screens with long throw leases.
2 He does not recommend, in my situation, to go from Qualia to HT5000 and I should wait to upgrade the projector (goo d reasons given).
Qualia owners who have any questions PM.
Ash

Not to take this thread off topic but Ash I just tok a look at your theater thread.
Wow another incredible theater.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=717403

I need to stop watching what you guys are doing. I use love my theater room but now its starting to look like po compared to what some of you guys are doing.

Congrats Ash. What a theater!!

Well guys. We are going to se the Sony diamond, the VPL-VW200 at Cedia. I don't know any details. But its going to be MSRP $15K. and it will be introduced at Cedia. A Qualia replacement. that's all I know.No specs. No details. The VPL-VW60 that MSRP will be $5000. Thats it. Do you know any deatils? No.

Hey arent you the same guy that was adamant, to the point of being condescending, that there was no way on earth there were gonna be any displays with LED technology last year? 8)

the vw 200 is not the diamond.
its the ruby successor
and i am sure the price will be less than $ 15k.

Arent you the guy who had the Sony 4k PJ running at your home theater, last year? 8)

So what does all this mean?
1 VW60 is 120 Hz update of VW50 at 5k$ or less
2 A 15k$ Diamond that is NOT the VW200?

Thie leads to two qustions.
1 What is the Diamond like?
2 How is Ruby updated to spawn the VW200? and at Ruby price?

Alan,

Thanks for the compliments.
I give a lot of credit for it to AVS -I learnt a lot over the years. Found the designer through AVS.
Ash

I won't replace my sub $5K machine with a say $12K machine because it JUST CAN'T be better enough. Better to just say I can't afford it.

Lets see if its better, first. If it is better, Ill see if it is better enough for me to want to spend say $12k for it for my $5k machine. 8)

I should be able to afford it, I think. 8)

Sure, it would be nicer if I was able to make $3k off of each person who bought one from me and was able to buy it for myself at $6k, but we all cant be that lucky, can we. 8)

Yeah, Ash, very nice looking theater. 8)

Alan,

Thanks for the compliments.
I give a lot of credit for it to AVS -I learnt a lot over the years. Found the designer through AVS.
Ash

Ash,
I finally saw the spread today. Congratulations on getting together a top notch theater !

Having a lobby really adds to the feeling very very nice. :)

Art

Art,
Thanks for the advice you gave me before I started..
The lobby is 6x18 (not as big as it looks) but very practical.
It adds to the magic of entering the cinema room and is a great place to make popcorn and stepping out to take a phone call etc.
We went through at least 10 render changes to get it the way it is. Made a lot of changes even during construction.
I was concerned it will be nowhere near the level of the Cinema but In my opinion it turned out to be very good.
Ash

I think Mark Haflich was saying the Diamond is the VW200, and it will be shown at cedia along with the VW60. He didn't say the diamond AND the vw200, he said the diamond, the vw200, meaning they are one in the same I believe.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding the Pearl replacement will be the VPL-VW60, and the only other Sony front projector scheduled for release is the diamond, which is also referred to as the VPL-VW200.

I know the VPL-VW60 and the VPL-VW200 will be shown. I known the MSRP of the 60 will be $5K and the 200 will be $15K. The 60 replaces the 50. I believe the code name for the 200 is Diamond but I am not sure of that. I do not know whether the VPL-VW100 will remain in the line. I suspect it will until stock runs out but I don't know. I really know very little about all of this except what I posted originally.

Arent you the guy who had the Sony 4k PJ running at your home theater, last year? 8)
yes :)

I need to stop watching what you guys are doing. I use love my theater room but now its starting to look like po compared to what some of you guys are doing.

Some people want their home cinemas to offer the best image and sound quality. Some want to impress visitors before the film starts. Some go for a compromise... ;)

The key is finding a pj that will last 2 or 3 years. That way you are not upgrading every year! :eek: If the Diamond proves to be able to be that kind of pj I may bite... I am very happy with my Ruby so it would take one hell of a pj to getme to move...

As a child I would eagerly read the back of cereal boxes as I chomped away on the cereal. I would then eagerly await the 2 -3 months for the toy I ordered (with me moms help). More often than not the toy which looked so good in pictures was largely a disappointment. If I had known the facts I would surely not have wasted my time.

Now as an informed consumer I have nothing contempt for the over processed, sugar laced products out of Battle Creek. That crappy toy should have been the least of my worries. Looking back I had been carefully manipulated by these junk food manufactures.
This was my first experience with the negative affects of advertising and blind name brand loyalty. Now I simply buy the best confirmed quality product whose merits meet my requirements.

These are the reasons which led me to purchase a second Sony PS3 this week. Great performance at a bargain price.

Please excuse me while I go put my cereal dish in the sink and re-watch movies with dark scenes. Anyone seen the beautifully dark Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire?
Forgive me for acting like a little kid again, but I'm enjoying the natural lifelike contrast which the dynamic iris took away. Like in shadows and light? No cereal was ever this addicting!
:)

Now that is a great post. :) It says it all....

I don't understand those numbers...5K for the Pearl replacement is not a clever move if they really want to better the market segment (as a strategy in the HD war).

15k for the Ruby replacement neither. Originally they were improving the Ruby (in lumens) in a "8k Diamond". Then RS1 came out, with better contrast and optics than Ruby. So I assume the new "15k Diamond" is either the contrast king (with much better Native Contrast than RS1 BTW) or uses a new light source (laser?), because just bettering the optics or marketing the 120Hz gimmick isn't going to convince the JVC consumers.

I don't understand those numbers...5K for the Pearl replacement is not a clever move if they really want to better the market segment (as a strategy in the HD war).

15k for the Ruby replacement neither. Originally they were improving the Ruby (in lumens) in a "8k Diamond". Then RS1 came out, with better contrast and optics than Ruby. So I assume the new "15k Diamond" is either the contrast king (with much better Native Contrast than RS1 BTW) or uses a new light source (laser?), because just bettering the optics or marketing the 120Hz gimmick isn't going to convince the JVC consumers.

Looking at Sonys history shows a breakthrough in performance and/or price,
(Qualia, Ruby, Pearl)
IF the VW200 comes in at 15k then it has to be something really special performance wise.(Even at 10k considering RS1)

Some people want their home cinemas to offer the best image and sound quality. Some want to impress visitors before the film starts. Some go for a compromise... ;)

Every theater is a compromise.

Art

Every theater is a compromise.

Art

Wiser words have never been spoken!

:cool:

Every theater is a compromise.

ArtI'm not sure I would consider your theater compromised. ;)

Just wondering,

What room conditions , projector, screen, and audio components would be needed for there to be "no compromise?"

What are we compromising from? If we are using the large screen (commercial theatre) as the reference and anything short of that (size) is a compromise, then perhaps I agree. But I've seen many HT setups that I enjoy far more than the commercial theatre, and I'm talking about PQ and sound, not considering the commercial theatre noise, crowds, and overpriced popcorn.

There are certainly compromises between different technologies, screen materials/sizes, audio gear, room conditions, ....etc, and I agree with Art that we all have to make choices that to some extent may involve compromising.

I come back to my original question, "Is there a setup available today that we would all (mostly) agree is not compromised?" (However you define compromised.)

Jim

Now that is a good question... :)

We are arquing semantics here I think. Say you want the best sound. To me any sound sent through the screen will be compromised. But you want a really big screen. OK I can give you a screen that fills the wall but you will have to send the sound through the screen. You have compromised sound for image size. I am being simplistic here. Just trying to give an eample.

Art's HT is compromised. Art would really like a bigger screen than the new extremely large one he is putting in. But he is unwliing to add further onto his house to enlarge the width of the theater. he doesn't want to sell his house and move. You get the point. Art's is one of the very best but it is of course a compromise from what he would like no holds bared and he does shoot the sound through a screen. Nevertheless it sounds great.

Funny me...I came here to see if there were any updates on the vw200...what was I thinking :D

Funny me...I came here to see if there were any updates on the vw200...what was I thinking :D

Hang in there, we'll begin seeing the pre-CEDIA "info leaks" in about 3-4 weeks. :D

I'm not sure I would consider your theater compromised. ;)

The drive to get there....

We are arquing semantics here I think. Say you want the best sound. To me any sound sent through the screen will be compromised. But you want a really big screen. OK I can give you a screen that fills the wall but you will have to send the sound through the screen. You have compromised sound for image size. I am being simplistic here. Just trying to give an eample.

Art's HT is compromised. Art would really like a bigger screen than the new extremely large one he is putting in. But he is unwliing to add further onto his house to enlarge the width of the theater. he doesn't want to sell his house and move. You get the point. Art's is one of the very best but it is of course a compromise from what he would like no holds bared and he does shoot the sound through a screen. Nevertheless it sounds great.

now Art can't sleep and is thinking about starting it all over again :D

kidding. Art's ht is absolutely magnificient.

to me scope curved mp of 13-15ft widths (with no gain paint) screen is ultimately the nirvana.
either a SR with 3000ansi pj (because of the huge light loss) or a quality MP.

with pro sound (JBL QSC cinema speakers), the screen isn"t an issue ! with some EQ too. consumer stuff however can't behind a non SR screen.

Ash,

Wunderbar Theater!

But I miss the CENTER seat (there are 4 seats row), The BEST seat in the best theater, so to say.
May be you build this for couples only? :eek:

The drive to get there....Yeah, that's about the only thing I can think of...

Funny me...I came here to see if there were any updates on the vw200...what was I thinking :D
VW200, what's that? This thread is about home theaters. For further info on the VW200, you might want to look in this forum...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=14&f=3

We are arquing semantics here I think. Say you want the best sound. To me any sound sent through the screen will be compromised.
With an accoustically transparent screen without holes and very mild digital correction I see (make that hear) no compromise.
I would never compromise on contrast in my home cinema concerning the room. So only highly absorbing black velvet is used. All the colorful 'nice' home cinemas are a big no no in my house. I also want maximal immersion so the size of the screen should be wall filling and any TV like approach with lots of nice framing around the screen is again a big no no. My ideal is a black hole where one wall is a picture floating in black space. The room is invisible.
So is the VW200 bringing me any closer to this goal? No idea as long as they are no contrast numbers known.

We will start a new thread when something concrete comes say an announcement in Japan. Only 51 days till show time.

now Art can't sleep and is thinking about starting it all over again :D

kidding. Art's ht is absolutely magnificient.

to me scope curved mp of 13-15ft widths (with no gain paint) screen is ultimately the nirvana.
either a SR with 3000ansi pj (because of the huge light loss) or a quality MP.

with pro sound (JBL QSC cinema speakers), the screen isn"t an issue ! with some EQ too. consumer stuff however can't behind a non SR screen.

What happened to the JVC 4K ,4000 lumen, 10,000:1 PJ for the home in June ?

Art

now Art can't sleep and is thinking about starting it all over again :D



Although it would be nice if I could finish the installation before needing to upgrade, :D it would be a bummer if there was nothing to consider upgrading to.

Art

hi
well they presented a proto at INFOCOM but have no further details.

both SONY and JVC are working on the 4K machines. another advance on DLP.

hi
well they presented a proto at INFOCOM but have no further details.

both SONY and JVC are working on the 4K machines. another advance on DLP.

I mean the part about this device being imminent ,was this just smoke and mirrors ?

Art

We will start a new thread when something concrete comes say an announcement in Japan. Only 51 days till show time.

Why not just start a new thread for this discussion? Those that are interested in updates on the VW200 keep looking at the new posts in here and find nothing at all related to this projector. Quit getting our hopes up man. ;)

The problem its like a group of good friends talking, things drift sometimes. Sorry. I know I am guilty. Further problem, there is just no new info at this time.

Whatcha doin? Nuthin.
Whatcha doin? Nuthtin too.

OK I'll call ya tomorrow and tell ya how the nuthin went.

A 15k$ Diamond that is NOT the VW200?

Away again, I blinked and saw this new info...

Did we have clarification that the VW-200 = diamond = $15,000? Do you think Sony scrapped the simple revision of the Ruby for a JVC killer?

As some others have said, JVC has blown away the competition in native contrast: simply taking the Ruby, a 5,000:1 native SXRD panel (120 Hz not a big deal), and adding a 700W xenon bulb just isn't good enough anymore and not a reason to buy over the JVC.

Lets say the cost was equal for the JVC RS-1 and a theoretical 'updated Ruby' (700W xenon, 5,000:1 native (reaching JVC level only with Dynamic Iris), and 120 Hz panel (unlikely to have significant visual impact), which would you buy?

For me, I'd order a JVC RS-1 and wait another year. I'd just hang on to the Ruby, but I'm giving that to my father for his XMAS present.

The fact that there is a $15,000 MSRP for this upcoming Diamond is exciting. They know full well the popularity of the RS-1 and there is no question they read these threads including this one.... For people to pay almost twice as much over an RS-1 must mean a significant improvement over the RS-1. Thank-you JVC for pushing the envelope...

I don't know how Sony is going to match the JVC in native contrast, especially if they are using a much brighter bulb (more scatter) and the latest SXRD panels mentioned are only 5,000:1

Sony, reminder: dynamic iris is no substitute for native contrast...

To think all that JVC has to do is release the current RS-1 model with a 700 watt xenon bulb, adress the color control issues and minor issues of the RS-1... and they would have a killer projector ready to go very soon as well.

15,000 will be a hard sell to me. Especially since the JVC is much cheaper and is performing so well. I have alwys said the only way I will get a nother pj is if I am getting a night and day difference... I doubt I would... I guess we will hae to wait and see though... :)

Arent you the guy who had the Sony 4k PJ running at your home theater, last year? 8)
yes :)

That 4K Sony SRX-R110 with 20-foot screen and 8.8 surround system amplified with 26 tube mono blocks fed from a Casablanca III and 13 Gen VIII DACs all hooked up to 1400 amps of clean balanced power is alive and well and still very much operational, if that's the one to which you're referring.

PF = po ming? Is that you?

15,000 will be a hard sell to me. Especially since the JVC is much cheaper and is performing so well.

Exactly, that is what is getting me excited! Sony knows the success of the JVC is based on the native contrast and they have to at least MATCH the native contrast and then outperform it in lumens and other quality control issues.

To charge $15,000 says to me that they perhaps have the ability to achieve something like 15,000:1 native contrast, equal to the JVC, but able to do so with MUCH more lumens, better colors, better optics, better controls, and then achieve up to 30,000-40,000 contrast with D.I. (?????)

Sony must know that a D.I. is not a substitute for native contrast. If the Sony only achieves 8,000-10,000 native contrast (assuming they have some new SXRD chip hidden and ready to release for the diamond), I hope they do not think that they are going to rely on the D.I. to get better numbers than the JVC. They've got to at least match the native ontrast of the JVC, and then outgun it in every other manner, something I think they can do...

My only fear is that they will only have about 8,000:1 native, and then achieve about 20-25,000 with the D.I. I defintely want more lumens, better optics, better control, but not at the expense of native contrast.

My excitement remains, hoping that Sony really has something up their sleeve... $15,000 sounds great in the sense they must really have something up their sleeve!!! Remaining optomistic now... Otherwise, I'll go with a JVC RS-1 in early Dec and give my dad the Ruby...

Sony, its all about the native contrast without DI.... 15,000:1 native needed as minimum. Dynamic Iris is sort of a 'potential optional bonus'. It is not as if the dynamic iris is a free ride (brightness compression, etc..)

15,000 will be a hard sell to me. Especially since the JVC is much cheaper and is performing so well. I have alwys said the only way I will get a nother pj is if I am getting a night and day difference... I doubt I would... I guess we will hae to wait and see though... :)
I'm constantly amazed by the "CR" mentality around this site (not trying to pick on you Joe)... It's like there are no other attributes that make up a nice picture. :confused:

I'd much rather have better optics, convergence, color, more light output, and only 8000:1 CR... than a PJ like the RS1 that has 15000:1 CR, but only okay MC, optics, output, and most notably, inaccurate colors that can't be corrected (although that might be correctable in the future, at some likely expensive cost). I wouldn't pay $15k for this, but the RS1 was the last PJ I buy based on CR, that's for sure (Once bitten, twice shy...)! I can appreciate CR as much as the next guy, but I can't say CR is more important to me than blatantly obvious things, such as a sharp image and proper colors.

Let's hope Sony offers a well rounded PJ rather than a CR spec queen, and if it streets under $8k I'll be very interested.

I agree with you 100% I just don't plan to get one for around 15,000 that may end up being marginally better than the Ruby.

My excitement remains, hoping that Sony really has something up their sleeve... $15,000 sounds great in the sense they must really have something up their sleeve!!!

I agree with your speculation.

Sony knows what they need to compete with.

Others have accurately speculated the VW200 is
a Qualia replacement - not a Ruby replacement.

Sony Dealers have said the Ruby has NOT been
discontinued - unlike the Pearl which is already
discontinued and will be replaced by the VW60.

Therefore, Sony will have three PJs VW60, VW100 and VW200.

I'm guessing the VW200 has to easily beat the JVC. If not - Sony
will have a BIG Looser on their hands with the VW200.

I think I would pay $15k or so for a VW200, if the lamp replacement comes in under $800 or so. I sold my Qualia 004 as much in anticipation of future lamp costs as the recent and impending release of DLP/SXRD's with much better contrast ratios.

I'm guessing the VW200 has to easily beat the JVC. If not - Sony
will have a BIG Looser on their hands with the VW200.
If Sony delivers in the VW200, a $15K Qualia level product ( $12K + $3K Zeiss interchangable lens, fit and finish) 1,500 lumens CLO ( 1Kw Zenon lamp), Ruby level CR ( 5,200:1 static, 16,000:1 DI), and Pearl auto iris sophistication, it will compete very nicely against the $50K 3DLPs!

, it will compete very nicely against the $50K 3DLPs!

If it has the lumens and the ANSI. SXRD needs to double or tripple their ANSI to compete with DLP. Just not their yet. Who will get their first. Will DLP match SXRD/Lcos on/off or will Locs/SXRD match DLPs ANSI.

... SXRD needs to double or tripple their ANSI to compete with DLP...
SXRD, starting with the Q04, has competed quite sucessfully against DLPs despite having 1/2 the ANSI CR. :)

Remember these same discussions in '05 on the $30k Q04 2,000:1 on/off 300:1 ANSI CRvs the $30K 720P 3DLPs at >2,000:1 on/off, >500:1 ANSI CR. :D

If the VW200 has Qualia level optics, build, and lumens, and Ruby/Pearl level on/of CR for $15K it will compete very well against the $50K 1080P 3DLPs!

I had a Qualia 004, and loved it. Judging from the performance of my Sharp XV-Z20000, however, the Qualia's day was past. The Sharp isn't better . . . but, overall, its performance is just as good. And it was less than one third the price.

One of the most disconcerting moments I had as a Qualia owner, however, was when the Qualia line was killed. As I recall, this occurred coincidental to a new Executive whose focus (appropriately, many shareholders would judge) was on the bottom line. And high-end projectors like the Qualia just weren't judged to be beneficial to the bottom line.

It's not as if Sony has, since that time, become awash in cash. If Qualia was killed, can someone tell me why, from a business standpoint, it becomes prudent for Sony to jump back in to the relative high end market (as prices have dropped, a $15,000 projector is, again, "high end")?

I've always been a fan of Sony products in general. It seemed as if, even in the midst of the most mass-marketed products, they always stepped up to remind the world that, if they wanted, they could still outperform anyone. Qualia was the last time I recall Sony making a statement like that. But that belonged to a different business mentality.

I need to wait and see. I'll be happy to go for a $15,000 Qualia-like product, but I still have a hard time believing that this is what the "new" Sony will really deliver.

Nick :cool:

I just don't understand you sometimes Alan..

You say to see topless strippers click here. Just about every stripper goes topless. Not all go bottomless. But Tryg's high gain GPS has all the bottomless stripper joints programmed in.

I conclude there is something clever going on in your click but uze are no suckering me in to click and see. I am guessing some wire stripping tool.

If it has the lumens and the ANSI. SXRD needs to double or tripple their ANSI to compete with DLP. Just not their yet. Who will get their first. Will DLP match SXRD/Lcos on/off or will Locs/SXRD match DLPs ANSI.Except the latter doesn't have to happen. Most people don't have a room that can realize a 300:1 ANSI CR yet alone a 500:1 ANSI CR...

If Sony delivers in the VW200, a $15K Qualia level product ( $12K + $3K Zeiss interchangable lens, fit and finish) 1,500 lumens CLO ( 1Kw Zenon lamp), Ruby level CR ( 5,200:1 static, 16,000:1 DI), and Pearl auto iris sophistication, it will compete very nicely against the $50K 3DLPs!

700 Watt Xenon was in the Qualia. Sure, I hope they have 1kW and achieve 1,500 Lumens while maintaining JVC-RS1 level contrast. You say 5,200 NATIVE??? ("static") No way.... Not good enough for a $15,000 projector. The reason I am attracted to the $15,000 is because that would mean Sony has been able to match the JVC level of contrast and have much more light output, in addition to better optics.

$15,000 diamond to me means at least matching JVC in contrast *and* beating them in all other categories. Otherwise, why bother...

I'm paying the first $7,000 for Sony to match the RS-1 native contrast. I'm paying the $8,000 for the better optics and ability to output more lumens than the JVC while mainting the same contrast as the JVC. Anyway you cut it, Sony thinks they can charge $15,000.... that means something that is CLEARLY better than the JVC RS-1.

We don't need a product that peole are going to say: well, if you have a 10 foot wide screen or less in a light controlled room, the RS-1 remains king with superior contrast... The diamond is $15,000: there shouldn't be any condition the RS-1 is superior to the Diamond.

I'm not asking for sony to BEAT the RS-1 in native contrast, but I sure as heck am asking them to match it, even with the much larger lumen output. Sorry, but many of us don't want the extra lumens if we have to take a hit in native contrast. $15,000 means at least matching the JVC contrast but with much more lumens...

I think I would pay $15k or so for a VW200, if the lamp replacement comes in under $800 or so.

I doubt that part will be true given the higher bulb wattage, however, I heard there has been significant improvement in xenon bulbs longevity, and hopefully much slower aging process. don't want to calibrate every damn 50 hours....

Anyway you cut it, Sony thinks they can charge $15,000.... that means something that is CLEARLY better than the JVC RS-1.

Of course Sony has NEVER been known to overcharge for their products simply because they're Sony :D

In all seriousness though, I agree with you 100% - if this projector can achieve RS1 contrast ratios/black levels while outputting significantly more lumens, that is the only way that Sony can expect people to pay $15K for the Diamond. Unless, of course, it has even better blacks and contrast than the RS1 while maintaining RS1 D65 lumen output levels.

Even if it has the same black level of the RS1 but its brighter it should measure better contrast.
I love the thought of a choice of high end optics but I wonder how feasible that would be if this has a dynamic iris.




I conclude there is something clever going on in your click but uze are no suckering me in to click and see. I am guessing some wire stripping tool.

Darn, I need a better line to out fox a fox. How about, Click here to see cigar smoking strippers re tubing a marquee :)

If it featured a competitive native on/off contrast ratio (say 10,000 : 1 or better), a sophisticated Iris, more lumens, quieter operation and better optics than the RS1 along with HDMI 1.3 I would probably opt for the Diamond over the RS1, even at $15k. That is unless replacement lamps are in the $1k+ range.

I wouldn't give up extra lumens/quieter enclosure just to get a 15,000:1 vs 10,000:1 native on/off contrast ratio.

uzun

It will have to be non Xenon driven if we expect a cheaper bulb!

Darn, I need a better line to out fox a fox. How about, Click here to see cigar smoking strippers re tubing a marquee :)

LOL!!!!!! :D ;)

700 Watt Xenon was in the Qualia. Sure, I hope they have 1kW and achieve 1,500 Lumens while maintaining JVC-RS1 level contrast. ...
The Q04 iris off measured 1,600 lumens d65 calibrated. Adding a Ruby/Pearl auto iris would allow that in bright scenes, while achieving dark scene (shadow) CR similar to a 16,000:1 pj in most low APL scenes.

You say 5,200 NATIVE??? ("static") No way.... Not good enough for a $15,000 projector...
Tell that to the people who are buying $50K 3DLPs with <1,500 lumens and < 5,000:1 static CR with no chance to get any dark scene CR improvements offered by a DI :D

At $15K I doubt that the Diamond will sell very well. Most people will look at the RS-1 and ask them selves is it worth almost 3 times the cost? Even at twice the cost of the RS-1 the Diamond will have to ba a LOT better to sell well. This is all speculation on my part of course without knowing the specs and final price of the Diamon, but Sony has a huge job in front of them if they want to sell many units. If it's WELL under 10K and it has superior specs and performance...it should sell very well.

It's all about price performance and I doubt that the Diamond will sell very well at the 15K price point. The vast majority of people just do not want to spend that much money.

More lumens, HDMI 1.3a, quieter operation and better optics would sell a lot of people on a Diamond over an RS1. A $15k projector will NOT sell as well as a $6k projector period, but the Diamond will still sell quite well if it improves over the RS1 in the areas I mentioned and doesn't give up much regarding native, non-Iris enhanced, on/off contrast ratio. I don't think it has to match the on/off CR of the RS1 to be successful.

It's all about price performance and I doubt that the Diamond will sell very well at the 15K price point. The vast majority of people just do not want to spend that much money.
Well Sony will be offering the VW60 for those people. :)

It should be obvious. If Sony releases a $15K VW200, it is not expected to compete with the $6K RS1. It will be to compete with the anticipated $30K and current $50K 3DLP devices.

It better for 15,000! :)

If it has the lumens and the ANSI. SXRD needs to double or tripple their ANSI to compete with DLP. Just not their yet. Who will get their first. Will DLP match SXRD/Lcos on/off or will Locs/SXRD match DLPs ANSI.

exactly my thinking too.

lcos needs to 2-3x the ansi contrast (best dlp range around 550-800:1)
to achieve the dlp pop-3D in certain scenes.
DLP needs to reduce dithering (that goes for 3DLP also) and improve on off and ideally make 3DLP 2K a bit less expensive...

these are the two most needed technological advances required to make one change his machine :D


now we've seen THE PRESTIGE BRAY on the HD1 last thursday and it was magnificient ! amazing grey scale, depth, tons of peaking brigthness contrast (whenever there's a window behind in the movie for instance). but this is a reference transfer !

there is an enormous influence of the sce played: a crap transfer or crappy filmed (weird colorimetry, blown off contrasts) movie will make us doubt on our projector. Feed it with a marvelous source (TEARS OF THE SUN, PIRATES 1, THE PRESTIGE) and we KISS our projector and worship it.

:D

how many $15K machines are sold for 1 $6K machine ?......
how many $5-6K machines are sold for 1 $3K machine ?

expensive projectors don't interest that much installers or consumers who want a complete installation (where you kinda HAVE to spend around $15-25K pj not included ) to have decent system (say 3meters screen, some acoustics, carpet, theater seats, preamp or receiver, power amp, 2 good real subs, capable speakers (think high sensitivity or pro stuff from JBL, QSC), a bray and hddvd player, maybe a scaler and lens.

the market of the $4-6K machines imho is the real market for that kind of home theater concept.

example: (all msrp in Euros):
an onkyo 905 1999
an RS1/HD1 6499
a quality microperf screen 3meters wide 1899
a PS3 599
an X1 Toshiba HD DVD 759
cables video 400
cables audio 600
Klipsch RF83 RC64 RS62 7.0 5500
2 Velodyne SPL1500R 4500
a NAD C272 stereo amp 799
acoustics panels and resonators (let's consider the room exists and is painted, carpeted) about 3000
a Belkin PF40 540
a Middle atlantic rack ERK 40units basic 700

this is already a very nice system, full HD ready, with acoustics, audissey EQ, indep bass management, bass power within THX recommandations (2 subs), with a BIG screen
It's a very nice equilibrium.
about 26,000 euros (less 20% VAT *1.37 (US/EURO)=$29,700
a 4-6K pj fits very well in such a system.

I really wish the Diamond will offer something UNIQUE to the market, perhaps a CIH mode feature -- the ability to do its own vertical stretch in the internal processor, together with an added interchangeable lens or something. At 15K MSRP, I think that one with an attractive tech spec., of course, will be enough to move the market in their favor.

how many $15K machines are sold for 1 $6K machine ?......
how many $5-6K machines are sold for 1 $3K machine ?.

That is why the sub 3k forum is 4 times the size of this forum and this forum is 3 times the size of the 20k forum :)

:D :D

it would be interesting if the VW200 has a xenon lamp at a cheaper price than the RUBY (the lamp price is a killer) and with better cooling (forget the fans free system, it forces the lamp to be "toned down" (350ansi new as per a french review mag) and further reduces its lifespan).
xenon is THE lamp for colorimetry and that "brigthness naturalness" i admit....
$600 and 1000hrs is acceptable.

Doing a search for Xenon proves very exspencive just for the bulb. Theres no way around it for xenon. Lower supply and demand and the additional manufacturing complication compared to UHP keeps the price high. It would be nice though to have this loaded with a 1k xenon :)

1000 lumens? 1000 watts? $1000?

1000 lumens? 1000 watts? $1000?
1kW

It would be nice though to have this loaded with a 1k xenon

Would love it... especially if it can last 2,500-3,000 hours and age much more gracefully than the Ruby xenon bulb. Then cost is not as much of a concern if you can get better quality and longer life.

Would gladly pay $1500.00 for a 1kW bulb if it can last at least 2,000+ hours and age much more gracefully...

How much was the 700W replacement bulb for the Qualia? (It shouldn't matter as much since you'd think cost on xenon bulbs has come down since then?)

I really wish the Diamond will offer something UNIQUE to the market, perhaps a CIH mode feature -- the ability to do its own vertical stretch in the internal processor, together with an added interchangeable lens or something.

Would be great...

To those concerned about cost: There are other choices out there, I'm thankful someone is building higher quality projectors. If Sony can deliver a product that justifies its cost, I'm thankful. there are enough 'cheaper' products on the market. I want a 'Qualia' level replacement, not a Ruby level replacement...

How much was the 700W replacement bulb for the Qualia? (It shouldn't matter as much since you'd think cost on xenon bulbs has come down since then?)



Would be great...



Lamps for the Q004 are $3000. And I wouldn't count on price having become less....

Lamps for the Q004 are $3000. And I wouldn't count on price having become less....

I guess you have NOT BEEN FOLLOWING THIS TREAD (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=697416)

We already have an RS-1 and VPW-60.... let's have some choices of higher end model where we don't get too cost concerned... Sure, it should justify the cost, but lets not get too tight with this projector.

I hope a 1kW bulb would not be considered cost prohibitive... I'd pay the $3,000 if it has significant improvents over the Qualia and Ruby bulbs in terms of aging gracefully and lasting longer. I would hate for Sony not to put in a 1kW bulb thinking it was too costly. I'd pay for it...

I guess you have NOT BEEN FOLLOWING THIS TREAD (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=697416)

True. But if wanting to extrapolate what the new cost for a 1kW lamp for the currently-vaporware Diamond may be, there's no guarantee that a 3rd party replacement will be avaialable. Although there are for the Ruby and Q004, there isn't for the Pearl, as an example.

Although there are for the Ruby and Q004, there isn't for the Pearl, as an example.The Pearl has a "cheap" lamp, so the probably isn't much profit for a 3rd party to make a drop in replacement for it, whereas the Ruby and Q004 have an expensive lamp and the profit margin is there.

True. But if wanting to extrapolate what the new cost for a 1kW lamp for the currently-vaporware Diamond may be, there's no guarantee that a 3rd party replacement will be avaialable. Although there are for the Ruby and Q004, there isn't for the Pearl, as an example.

I will GUARANTEE you - SONY is NOT in the Lamp Making Business.
They will buy the Lamp from some source and package it up as they
need.

The issue is finding the lamp source - that is the tricky part.

It is like the OLD CRT Projector days. No matter who had their
name on the outside - almost all PJ CRTs were from NEC.

PJ business is not big enough to justify in-house component
development, except in the case where the same component
is used across high-volume consumer lines [aka TVs].

.... let's have some choices of higher end model where we don't get too cost concerned... Sure, it should justify the cost, but lets not get too tight with this projector.

I hope a 1kW bulb would not be considered cost prohibitive... I'd pay the $3,000 if it has significant improvents over the Qualia and Ruby bulbs in terms of aging gracefully and lasting longer. I would hate for Sony not to put in a 1kW bulb thinking it was too costly. I'd pay for it...
I case you haven't noticed, you seem to be the only one throughout this thread saying money is really no concern.

The fact is, there are many people here that can afford to spend crazy money on a PJ, but the vast majority will not . Remember, at the end of the day, Sony needs to sell these as well...

I case you haven't noticed, you seem to be the only one throughout this thread saying money is really no concern.

The fact is, there are many people here that can afford to spend crazy money on a PJ, but the vast majority will not . Remember, at the end of the day, Sony needs to sell these as well...

I have not read him to say that money is no concern, only that he would be willing to pay certain amounts. There's nothing wrong with saying that. In fact, if Sony is truly watching boards like these, I believe there's value to things like that being said.

Frankly, I'm with him.

Nick :cool:

They sell $20,000+ Sharp projectors, Marantz, Sim...etc... projectors... The Diamond would be FAR less than the Qualia, yet *potentially* offer MUCH greater performance. Hopefully overall better than many $15,000+ projectors currently on the market.

The Amethyst looks like a great deal, if best bang for the buck is a concern.

Go 1kW Xenon Diamond bulb!! :)

Sony is fully prepared to lose $4,000 a projector as long as it sells a lot of them. Its more important that Sony sells a zillion than it makes a profit selling them The more it sells at a loss, the faster Sony will lose money. So e-mail Sony and tell them while you could afford a $15K projector that is much better than its older $30K one, you feel Sony should lower the MSRP to say $6295. They could sell a bundle at the price because with the recent influx of Sony internet dealers, you could buy it for say $4500. Tell em, you will buy two. Lie a little. WTF

Sony is fully prepared to lose $4,000 a projector as long as it sells a lot of them. Its more important that Sony sells a zillion than it makes a profit selling them The more it sells at a loss, the faster Sony will lose money. So e-mail Sony and tell them while you could afford a $15K projector that is much better than its older $30K one, you feel Sony should lower the MSRP to say $6295. They could sell a bundle at the price because with the recent influx of Sony internet dealers, you could buy it for say $4500. Tell em, you will buy two. Lie a little. WTF

While we enjoy your sense of humor Mark.

I'm sure SONY does not http://www.rx8web.com/smilies/bouncy.gif .

Now if the PJ was like a video game - they could loose
money on the PJ and get it back from GAME revenue.

But there is NO SUCH marketing model for PJs.

IMO there are 3 potential configuration for a $15K VW200;

1) A Ruby level product with next gen panels/wiregrid - 800 lumens 15,000:1 /50,000:1 DI.
Not enough of a diff to sell for 2.5 x RS1

2) A Q004 level product with next gen panels/wiregrid - 1,500 lumens 15,000:1 /50,000:1 DI.
Would overnight stop sales of $50K 3DLP, can you say Marantz 10S1 all over again.

3) A Q004 level product with current gen panels- 1,500 lumens 5,000:1 /20,000:1 DI.
The most likely product.

A Q004 level product with current gen panels- 1,500 lumens 5,000:1 /20,000:1 DI.
The most likely product.

And why would I buy that over an RS-1 for $15,000? Don't get me wrong, it wouldn't be bad, it just wouldn't interest me...

A Q004 level product with next gen panels/wiregrid - 1,500 lumens 15,000:1 /50,000:1 DI.

That is what I expect. Well. I wouldn't complain if it is 12,000:1 native and 40,000 D.I. But something in this range is needed to justify $15,000 IMO... Also, even with the better numbers, the ANSI contrast is unlikely to be significantly improved... But at least we'd have a $15,000 projector relative to what is available today...

For someone who said native contrast is not the only issue, of course it isn't, however, what *is* making the RS-1 sell so well? Is it the color/controls? No. Is it the low fan noise? no. Is it the lamp? No. Is it the Convergence? Heck no... WTF is the reason the RS-1 is selling so well????? It is the native panel improvement.... The native RS-1 panels are its only real special feature: the RS-1 projector really isn't that great otherwise...

For someone who said native contrast is not the only issue, of course it isn't, however, what *is* making the RS-1 sell so well? Is it the color/controls? No. Is it the low fan noise? no. Is it the lamp? No. Is it the Convergence? Heck no... WTF is the reason the RS-1 is selling so well????? It is the native panel improvement.... The native RS-1 panels are its only real special feature: the RS-1 projector really isn't that great otherwise...
I'm certainly not going to argue with that logic!

You know I think that there's some marketing logic behind this (correct) observation. On/off contrast is objectively quantifiable by a simple number. It's easy to explain and market. It's like watts with amplifiers or 1.3 HDMI or 1080p/24. All offer simple, numerical marketing slogans on which people easily fixate.

Some of these factors are important to image quality and some aren't.

Health Nut
Selling points of RS1 are several such as
Native contrast
Convergence adjustment
Flexible install, zoom and lens shift
Lumen and high contrast
Good video source access compatability , 2xhdmi and 1080p24
Price

I wouldn't kick a RS1 out of my theater... :)

Perhaps there is hope for a color correct Sony projector.
This lcd monitor sure seems equpped. The technology should be possible to adapt from lcd direct view to sxrd projectors.

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/BroadcastandBusiness/DisplayModel?m=10007&p=8&sp=20073&id=89766

Lumen and high contrast

These are the big issues for me. Bar some 1080p dlp, every other 1080p projector is too dim for my liking, and that's with a brand new bulb.

I wouldn't kick a RS1 out of my theater... :)
I would... and did. :D

Convergence adjustment

I BELIEVE THAT IS UNTRUE.

I don't own a RS1 - I own a Ruby.

But I have the RS1 manual and Convergence Adjustment is NO WHERE TO BE FOUND.

I BELIEVE THAT IS UNTRUE.

I don't own a RS1 - I own a Ruby.

But I have the RS1 manual and Convergence Adjustment is NO WHERE TO BE FOUND.

say what ???

The Pearl has a "cheap" lamp, so the probably isn't much profit for a 3rd party to make a drop in replacement for it, whereas the Ruby and Q004 have an expensive lamp and the profit margin is there.

Hmm, I didn't get the impression that the recently found cheaper lamps were marketed as such, but instead were sourced from the manufacturer directly, or some such.

I will GUARANTEE you - SONY is NOT in the Lamp Making Business.
They will buy the Lamp from some source and package it up as they
need.

The issue is finding the lamp source - that is the tricky part.

It is like the OLD CRT Projector days. No matter who had their
name on the outside - almost all PJ CRTs were from NEC.

PJ business is not big enough to justify in-house component
development, except in the case where the same component
is used across high-volume consumer lines [aka TVs].

Understood, and I agree. Hoewver, a replacement for the Q004 and Ruby lamps were not found until recently, and the PJ's have been on the market for a few years now.

Therefore I was simply responding to Health Nut's question about what lamps cost for the Q004, ans it looks like he was trying to draw some conclusions as the what a lamp for the "Diamons" might run.

Understood, and I agree. Hoewver, a replacement for the Q004 and Ruby lamps were not found until recently, and the PJ's have been on the market for a few years now.


I think the only reason they were not FOUND until now
is because no one looked :D

We all had new Lamps in our Ruby and only recently
was the age of our lamps getting up there that people
started to think about changing lamps.

drhankz
RS1 has convergence adjustment you have not just found them.

drhankz
RS1 has convergence adjustment you have not just found them.

All I said was I can not find it in the MANUAL.

The Ruby has Convergence adjustment also.

BUT ONLY SONY Technicians can do it back at a SONY Depot.
I don't call that Convergence Adjustment.

I have spent hours on the thread and tried to figure out what the "Diamond" might look like and found some of the information from my side might help to clarify some of the points have been discussed here:

Wire Grid magic:
Some of the folks working in the projector field, and close to Sony, mentioned that Ruby and Pearl all have Wire Grid implemented and actually Sony was the first one using it, a company in Taiwan, called Cinetron was number two but they did not put it on marketing papers. The 'how', 'where', and 'how many' in the implementation of wire grid will significantly affect the C/R.

240Hz or 120Hz:
From the article: http://www.htprojectors.com/indexENG.asp, it mentioned the goal is 240Hz. Actually, Ruby and Pearl are using 0.61" 120Hz refresh rate panels. Sony's SXRD department is trying to introduce 240Hz panels this fall for their new models.

Just tried to share what I know from the industry.

SWChen
With your insight would you say that
1 Improved use of wire grid technology will increase sxrd contrast ratio?
2 That it will take some time for competeing lcos alternatives to d-ila to reach their native 20000:1 contrast ratio.
3 The new 240Hz panels will show significant improvement in pq as in less brain induced motion blur.
4 Some have complained about how sxrd panel driving handles high frequency patterns with roll off. Could this be reduced and lead to sharper sxrd projectors?

... Nevertheless it sounds great.

I don't know how a "compromised sound" could "sound great". On top of that all those big compromised installations comes from people in love with themselves, not movie lovers. They watch crap all days.

I think the only reason they were not FOUND until now
is because no one looked :D

We all had new Lamps in our Ruby and only recently
was the age of our lamps getting up there that people
started to think about changing lamps.

Great! Would you mind forwarding me the link for an OEM lamp for my Pearl?

Thanks!

;)

Great! Would you mind forwarding me the link for an OEM lamp for my Pearl?

Thanks!

;)

YOU START HERE (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7975832&&#post7975832)

Some more hope on color depth for the Diamond:

in september new LCD tv's will have 10-bit processing and 10-bit display:

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10551&storeId=10151&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665153951

If SONY can do it on LCD consumer tvs, it can also do it on the Diamond.

A question for the experts: what kind of difference makes a 10-bit color display?

Jay

All the new Sony stuff for this year will have HDMI 1.3. We've known that since the US dealer show in early March. Also everything will have a 120HZ refresh rate.

The extra bits increase the number of possible colors or shades to some unfathomable number at 8 bits to an even lasrger unfathomable number at 10 bits. It widens the color space and improves the accuracy of the picture. This is apparent in a demo where a video camera takes a picture of a wide gamut of colors which is fed to two displays, one 8 bit and one 10 bit. Looking at what the test camera is shooting with you eyes and then to the two screens, the 10 bit is more accurate and does a better job of showing the shades your eyes see in real life. If you didn't have the actual subject there and only had the 8 bit display, you would be happy. Wait till they get 16 bit colors. :)

SWChen

4 Some have complained about how sxrd panel driving handles high frequency patterns with roll off. Could this be reduced and lead to sharper sxrd projectors?


Great question ohlson

mark haflich
I am sure you know this but your words come out a bit confusing.

Deep Color
This can provide greater color accuracy with better shades if the source and the display can handle extra bits above 8 per component.

xvColor
Is a Sony name for a new wider color space standard.

Both can improve the reproduction on the display of the object in real life. xvColor could help show more of lifes all colors. Deep color can represent all shades of colors in a better way.

gandley
Yes, I am hoping the drive electronics can make the sxrd projectors sharper. Perhaps the bad rep for the lens is out of proportion.

I thought that xvColor was Sony's branded Deep Color implementation?

Sorry for the confusion. Deep color and the new color space are simply, I think, part of the HDMI 1.3 standard. Two different things. Deep color more bits, more shades. New color space is a wider gamet. Mattias. Feel free to correct me as necessary. Thanks

I thought that xvColor was Sony's branded Deep Color implementation?

My understanding is xvColor is Sony's branding of the xvycc color space.

See this (http://blog.ultimateavmag.com/thomasnorton/041507HDMI/) post in Thomas Norton's Ultimate AV Blog.

This stuff is confusing enough without marketing types making up their own brands for industry standards :mad:

My understanding is xvColor is Sony's branding of the xvycc color space.

See this (http://blog.ultimateavmag.com/thomasnorton/041507HDMI/) post in Thomas Norton's Ultimate AV Blog.

This stuff is confusing enough without marketing types making up their own brands for industry standards :mad:
Thanks for the correction.

Thanks for the correction.

No prob. Just trying to do my part to clear the fog.

So far I am inclined to conclude that the Diamond:

1) Will have 120 Hz capabilities
2) Wil most likely have deep color capabilities at the 10-bit level and expanded xvYCC color gamut
3) Will most likely have more lumens than the Ruby
4) Will most likely have better on/off and ANSI contrast than the Ruby

I also hope it has better and interchangeable optics

Not too shabby

So far I am inclined to conclude that the Diamond:

1) Will have 120 Hz capabilities
2) Wil most likely have deep color capabilities at the 10-bit level and expanded xvYCC color gamut
3) Will most likely have more lumens than the Ruby
4) Will most likely have better on/off and ANSI contrast than the Ruby

I also hope it has better and interchangeable optics

Not too shabby
I completely agree. ;)

I just want a pj that will exceed Edison's expectations from 1891! :D

So far I am inclined to conclude that the Diamond:


3) Will most likely have more lumens than the Ruby


I heard one of them will have a 900 something watter xenon. That should produce some lumens!

do have the msrp price already ? $25,000 ? $15,000 ?
2K or 4K ? 1000 or 3000lumens ($25K)

I heard one of them will have a 900 something watter xenon. That should produce some lumens!

i thought that was 900 lumen UHP for the VW60. least thats what it says in that other thread.

Oh found this

http://www.cinemotion.biz/informacion.php?iinfo=235

Oh found this

http://www.cinemotion.biz/informacion.php?iinfo=235

After translating French to English - all it really talks
about is the VW60 and any specs for the VW200 are
the same as the VW60

3) Will most likely have more lumens than the Ruby
4) Will most likely have better on/off and ANSI contrast than the Ruby

What do you mean "most likely"? We are talking about a $15,000 projector that has to significantly outperform a $7500 RS-1

Who cares about the Ruby, it is 2 years old now. I have one... I'm looking to replace it with something significantly superior to the RS-1. It is not about most likely anything... It is about achieving the similar (or better) native contrast than the RS-1 then improving upon it in all other areas to justify the $15,000 cost.

(15,000:1 Native on/off, 40,000+ with auto DI, and 1500+ D65 Lumens)

What do you mean "most likely"? We are talking about a $15,000 projector that has to significantly outperform a $7500 RS-1

Who cares about the Ruby, it is 2 years old now. I have one... I'm looking to replace it with something significantly superior to the RS-1. It is not about most likely anything... It is about achieving the similar (or better) native contrast than the RS-1 then improving upon it in all other areas to justify the $15,000 cost.

(15,000:1 Native on/off, 40,000+ with auto DI, and 1500+ D65 Lumens)

I hear you, but I haven't read any information that may lead me to believe that SONY will pull that kind of improvements. Another thing is that they should and there I agree with you. Have you heard anywhere that the Diamond will have that kind of specs?

I hear you, but I haven't read any information that may lead me to believe that SONY will pull that kind of improvements.

The $15,000 price tag.

JVC *did* pull those type of improvements, and for MUCH LESS.

I doubt we will see a native CR of over 5000 from Sony because it they had such a panel we would have seen it in other new products shipping this fall .Life is much more than the strong point of the JVC. The Sony doesn't have to beat the JVC in every parameter and its much better that it doesn't because then RS1 owners can say that parameter is the most important to them, just as every prior adopter of bulb projectors said gray blacks weren't that big of deal.

Its sort of like a Miata compared to a Corvette. Anyway, we will know a lot more in 5 weeks, 2 days.


Beer is beer, right Healthnut? If the premium stuff doesn't have a higher alcohol content (let alone a lower alcohol content) and costs three times as much, who would be stupid enough to piss money away just because it tastes better?

I oubt we wll isee a native cr of over 5000 from sony because it they had such a panel we would have seen it in other new products shipping this fall.They must have some improvement in native CR or they'll have a really hard time to hit 35000:1 on the VW60 with only a iris improvement.

I think the specs we have seen in the 60 panels are 5000. What might be different are polorizers, double irises. Whatever. I don't kniw.

It very well could be that they are expecting to boost their contrast mostly on the fact of brighter peaks with more lumens, and the D.I.... Guess we shall see as soon at CEDIA. Would be a shame not to match the JVC native contrast.

It again goes to show how good of a job JVC has done. I would love to see a JVC RS-2 projector come out with an 800W xenon bulb and some improvements...

What do you mean "most likely"? We are talking about a $15,000 projector that has to significantly outperform a $7500 RS-1...
To put this in context;
JVC RS1 ~16,000:1 on/off CR
Sharp 20K ~7,500:1 on/off CR
Ruby ~5,200:1 on/off CR ( best static)

every other digital in existence has <5,000:1 on/off CR. The majority of 1080P DLPs are ~4,000:1 or less. Some of them are > $20K! The $50K 3DLPs are <5,000:1 on/off CR!

A $15K VW200 with Qualia 04 quality interchangable lens, lumens >1,500, and better than Pearl level DI performance will have a market.

JVC RS1 ~16,000:1 on/off CR

Native and loving it...

The point is that the market will be very niche unless the native contrast is on par with the RS-1. The RS-1 readily handles 10' wide scope CIH screens, so to me, The Diamond priced at $15,000 really just can't be a Ruby with better lens and brighter xenon bulb... (I'd still take an RS-1 with better contrast, or consider DLP projectors if more lumens were needed)

Just ordered a CINESLIDE for my ISCO III....

I really think that you guys are obsessing over on/off contrast.

It is an important measure of performance to be sure, but only one measure among many. Having high on/off CR does not necessarily mean that you will get a superior image in all--or even most--program material. High-quality optics, processing, sharpness, ANSI CR, etc. are all important factors which need to be considered as a package.

I agree with you 100% Tom.

And since did when did I or anybody say any one factor is all important? Of course *everything* is important... at the same time, I sure as heck can recognize what *IS* making the RS-1 sell so well and what DOES make it the current best projector for anything close to its price... and as the number one projector reviewer (for widescreen Review as well) says he'd pick as his projector for $20,000 and below: the RS-1

I didn't realize it was a lot to ask for Sony to MATCH the native contrast of a $7500 RS-1 for half its price... Oh the horror, I'm so unrealistic :rolleyes:

Its funny. For years blacks sucked on bulb projectors, yet they sold here like hot cakes. CRts sucked said the masses. Hell only the blacks are better on a CRT they said and what 's the big deal with the blacks?

Now a decent projector comes along with decent blacks (yes you RS1ers out their, decent, not great blacks!) and the rush is on. Blacks are so ****** on bulbs anything that makes them better is very very important.

The masses will be safe when the Sony comes out probably better the JVC in almost every regard. And indeed it needs betterment. But the RS1ers will ba safe in their purchase. The native contrast will not be as high and there will be brightness compression with any dynamic iris. BRIGHTNESS COMPRESSION! No! No! No! they will scream, yet most wouldn't notice it unless it was pointed out to them and would still scream NO even if it gained a projector substantial parameter improvements in other areas.

JVC cheated with colors to gain extra brightness. The masses chime in, no big deal. Accurate colors aren't that important. Just the blacks.

Let's see if Greg from Widescreen still thinks its the best projector for under $20K after the intros at Cedia. I'd be very very surprised.

And since did when did I or anybody say any one factor is all important? Of course *everything* is important... at the same time, I sure as heck can recognize what *IS* making the RS-1 sell so well and what DOES make it the current best projector for anything close to its price... and as the number one projector reviewer (for widescreen Review as well) says he'd pick as his projector for $20,000 and below: the RS-1

I didn't realize it was a lot to ask for Sony to MATCH the native contrast of a $7500 RS-1 for half its price... Oh the horror, I'm so unrealistic :rolleyes:No one explicitly says on/off contrast is all that matters, because that would sound silly. Instead, the tone and content of this thread and others just suggests it instead.

But you are right that it is an extremely effective marketing tool. Not that it's relevant, but I don't know what "number one projector reviewer" (what makes him #1, anyway?) you are referring to. Greg Rogers has certainly never written that.

On/off ratio is another parameter such as ansi. But capability of a display device to produce the right level of illumination based on video level is one of the foundation of good playback production. I have no idea what parameter some prefer over the others but it shouldn't be a preference contest imo.

Actually, Greg has said just that on AVS forum. Someone provided the link to that thread. Greg has said that of all the projectors, the $20,000 Sharp included, and others, that he likes the RS-1 overall the best, assuming you have an RS-1 without problems (since a few seemed to have quality control issues).

Just because we are using numbers to describe the level of performance we seek, doesn't have anything to do with marketing. We have numbers for ANSI contrast and on/off contrast to judge relative performance, nothing to do with marketing. Sure, the final look to the eye is what matters, but most of us know the numbers asscociated to what we are seeing...

"No one explicitly says on/off contrast is all that matters, because that would sound silly. Instead, the tone and content of this thread and others just suggests it instead."

As has been true for years, the single biggest weakness in digital pj's is *still* CR, and that's why it's stressed more.

Native and loving it...

The point is that the market will be very niche unless the native contrast is on par with the RS-1....
IIRC you moved from a CRT to the Ruby, right? Most likely you gave up ~20,000:1 native to get 3,000 to 5,000:1 native, 15,000:1 (DI) with the Ruby.

Which pj has the better PQ? :D

Actually, Greg has said just that on AVS forum. Someone provided the link to that thread. Greg has said that of all the projectors, the $20,000 Sharp included, and others, that he likes the RS-1 overall the best, assuming you have an RS-1 without problems (since a few seemed to have quality control issues).First, it's the Marantz that's $20,000, not the Sharp. Second, I'd like to see that link. That's not what I recall him saying at all, either in his initial review or his subsequent posts here on that and related matters.

Edit: Here's what I recall Greg writing about this issue.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10132171&&#post10132171

What's "best" depends upon how you rank various aspects of image performance. People vary in the regard considerably. For example, I do not see rainbows. Just don't see them. So, for me 1-chip DLP looks much more attractive than it would to someone who is rainbow sensitive.

As has been true for years, the single biggest weakness in digital pj's is *still* CR, and that's why it's stressed more.I agree here, at least mostly I do. Historically, HT enthusiasts were accustomed to CRTs, which have an extremely high on/off CR. Digital projectors have always suffered in comparison because CRTs were the standard against which they were judged.

However, it seems to me that we are largely past that now. The top tier of digital PJs have gotten so good in this respect that other areas of performance now deserve more attention.

Greg Specifically said he would take the RS-1 over, excuse me, the Marantz and others as long as it was one of the RS-1's that did not have a quality control issue. I'm at work, perhaps someone else can point to the exact quote, but it is exact, I can assure you that.

Which pj has the better PQ?

Damn, I know we are bored without any new information, however, what does that have to do with my request that the Sony should be able to match the RS-1 in terms of native contrast ability??? Of course we want better overall picture quality, but the most frustrating aspect of digital projectors remains the on/off contrast level to me... Sure I want increased ANSI contrast, better lenses, better software control, better onboard signal processing/video processing, blah blah blah.... Look, JVC came out with a GREAT lcos panel... In some sense, I'd rather have SONY build a projector around the JVC PANELS, that is my point.

Greg Specifically said he would take the RS-1 over, excuse me, the Marantz and others as long as it was one of the RS-1's that did not have a quality control issue. I'm at work, perhaps someone else can point to the exact quote, but it is exact, I can assure you that.
That's not exactly what I said.

First I said (and this is the best and most complete answer):

"I know it seems like I'm avoiding a direct answer, but it really does come down to what qualities you prefer and how lucky you are. LCoS and 3-panel/chip technologies introduce a set of a variables that introduce luck into the equation. The 3 panel/chip technologies are going to have variable unit-to-unit misalignment, and LCoS adds the possibility of color/brightness uniformity issues. Single-chip DLP is simply more consistent in image quality.

Then you have to weigh the specific advantages of the technology used by each projector. The Gennum processing gives the RS1 and VP-11S1 an advantage over the Sharp. But you can use an external processor for all three. The VP-11S1 has a spectacular lens, excellent image depth, and almost no rainbow artifacts. The XV-Z20K has accurate color (with proper calibration), tremendous ANSI contrast and image depth, and excellent native contrast. But it has rainbow artifacts. The RS1 has even better native contrast, but may have some color uniformity and corner brightness issues that could bother you. But it has no rainbow color separation artifacts. If you value dark scene performance over bright scene performance, the RS-1 has the edge, if its color accuracy doesn't bother you. But the image qualities of the Sharp and Marantz are likely to be more predictable."

The question continued to be asked so then I said:

"I can't get away from that question, can I?

If I could get an RS-1 with nearly perfect panel alignment and excellent color uniformity, I would go with the RS-1 and an external processor to color correct the primaries."

I haven't seen one with nearly perfect panel alignment, but I imagine it does happen from time to time. It's a matter of luck how good the alignment is. That's not the same thing as saying a projector without a quality control issue, because projectors could be well within the manufacturer's spec (i.e. not a quality control issue) and not satisfy my criteria.

You will also have trouble finding a processor to do color correction today. Hopefully that won't be a problem in the future.

The Lumagen Radiance XD will have features that can help with color correction but since it can't be done in the projector itself, it won't be perfect. I'm not saying the colors are bad on the RS1, just saying any projector should be able to have improved color if your scaler has the calibration settings.

In response to Greg, once it's out (it's out in Beta now and not with the aforementioned feature yet) the Radiance should be at least one model.

Richard

"However, it seems to me that we are largely past that now. The top tier of digital PJs have gotten so good in this respect that other areas of performance now deserve more attention."

After further thought, I'm going to agree w/your disagreemnet and say that I'd be willing to trade some of my RS1's CR, say 25%, to fix the overblown greens.

I wasn't aware that JVC had to make any significant tradeoffs, other than perhaps lumens, to achieve their excellent contrast ratio. My understanding is that JVC was likely going to come out with another model based on those panels with better color control, bette features, etc...

You shouldn't have to trade CR level to fix the overblown greens. How nice would it be to have Sony Diamond use the JVC panels... or simply have JVC come out with another model to improve upon the RS-1. You shouldn't have to worry about giving away CR to fix the color controls :), it is something that JVC could have and perhaps should have addressed with the RS-1

The Lumagen Radiance XD will have features that can help with color correction but since it can't be done in the projector itself, it won't be perfect. I'm not saying the colors are bad on the RS1, just saying any projector should be able to have improved color if your scaler has the calibration settings.

In response to Greg, once it's out (it's out in Beta now and not with the aforementioned feature yet) the Radiance should be at least one model.

Richard
Richard,
It sounds to me like you're trying to sell a product based on something that hasn't been proven it can do... or even will be able to do.

Anyone that dishes out $4k for this processor just to fix the colors on their RS1 will quite possibly find themselves very disappointed in the future... Let's not put the cart in front of the horse. ;)

The cart ALWAYS goes behind the horses ass. ALWAYS!

"You shouldn't have to trade CR level to fix the overblown greens."

Nor is it possible to do so (short of modifying the green filter element), I was just making a point.

The cart ALWAYS goes behind the horses ass. ALWAYS!

What if you're going down a very, very steep incline? :)

Hey Noah,

I'm you neighbor now... working at Stanford. I'm going to sign up for getting one of the first Diamonds, so if you like, you can come check it out. Have D-Box love seat (Don't worry there will be more than one soon) and some cool stuff as well. Still setting everything up.

I have faith in Sony that they wil be able to justify the cost over the RS-1 ;) Don't let me (d)own Sony, you know I expect 1,000,000,000:1 on/off contrast and 5,000:1 ANSI contrast at 2,000 ANSI Lumens D65 calibrated out of the box...

Healthnut. Its not don't let me OWN [a] Sony, you meant to type Don't let me DOWN Sony. :)

Hehe.... fixed that...

Sony VPL-VW200 "Diamond" specs:

- HD SXRD Technology
- 1920x1080
- Brightness 4000 ANSI
- 20 000 :1 Contrast Ratio (Auto Iris on)

Bravia Engine Pro
Motionflow + 100Hz
Deep Colour / x.v. Colour
Bravia Theater Sync.
Anamorph Zoom Mode
Zone Compensation Mode
motorised Lens Shift
motorised Zoom

New Remote Control
Noise 22dB (economy mode)
2 HDMI 1.3a Inputs (1080p/24)
case color: white

Where did those specs come from. 4000 ANSI lumens? That would indicate some very unusual light source.

Where did those specs come from. 4000 ANSI lumens? That would indicate some very unusual light source.

Seems to be a bit unreliable considering the cr is only 20,000 to 1 with iris on. I would believe it if it said native but I highly doubt their top of the line projector will have over 50% less cr than the cheaper model. I could be wrong but it sure seems hard to believe.

Well, if it was putting out 4000 Lumens and still maintaining 20,000:1 that would be a big breakthrough as far as bulb technology goes... 4,000 seems a bit much, they'd have to have a 1kW bulb or such for that... It would be great! But I don't believe it... The brighter the bulb with SXRD, the more scatter and lower contrast I think... hence low lamp mode giving the better contrast... Yea, don;t get me wrong, I want 4,000 ANSI lumens an 100,000:1 contrast but... need some lasers for that....

hptschupp
New Member
Posts: 1

Somebody just having fun I suppose?

Health Nut
I thinkthe real specs will show greater contrast. Someone I can not remember who said vw200 had panels with significantly better contrast compared with vw60.

4,000 Lumens though, hehe, I'd be a pig rolling in mud, or something like that... Very exciting stuff, can't wait to have some *POP* to my picture....

....and some sunglasses in your theater :)

White case? That would eliminate it for me. My ceiling is black. What were they thinking?

22db noise? I thought they were going to make it quiet?

I guess I could put it in a black hushbox. Yea. That would do it. Whew!

I hope it has the "clarity" of the JVC... along with all the other spec issues being discussed.

God. I hate to ask David this question but TaDa Boom. Say, Dave what do you mean by clarity?

The Sony will certainly use a better lens and the resoltion will be the same. The convergence will be better too than the RS1.

Of course, it the On/off CR of the Sony is not as good, the RS1 will have better 3D type effect.

SWTF do you mean by clarity? :)

Also did you purchase an RS1?

Also are you actually contemplating buying one of these at the mail order street price of something above $10K if the MSRP is $15K? Is this a purely academic discussion?.

Mark,

my bad. I should have clarified. (hehe, that's a pun :) ).

I'm actually thinking of my friend's JVC HD2K when I mention "clarity". The depth-of-field produced by the HD2K looked better than the Ruby, and MUCH bettter than the Pearl which only looks like a fuzzy 720p LCD to my eyes (the Pearl, not the Ruby). Now, the HD2K was $20K when it was current, so it likely has optics that really push the envelope. But I'd hate to have all that gorgous 1080p SXRD technology and digital perfection obscured through inferior optics on the new Sony.

I'm hoping to wait for a (rainbow-free) 1080p projector looks as "clear" to my eyes as the JVC HD2K... but with perfect blacks/contrast... ;)

Of course, it the On/off CR of the Sony is not as good, the RS1 will have better 3D type effect.

I certainly wouldn't make that assumption at all, especially without seeing the VW-200. I have a feeling that the VW-200 will be a clear winner over the RS-1, but then again, it retails for almost twice as much... I wouldn't assume the RS-1 will have better 3D effect: the VW-200 is going to have significantly better intrascene contrast than the Ruby according to those who have the inside info... I expect the VW-200 to walk all over the RS-1 and for those that can afford the higher price, there will be no question... We shall see soon, that's for sure...

In addition to the yet undisclosed native contrast of the VW-200 which could easily be 10,000:1 or 15,:000:1 vs the VW-60 7,000:1, the added bulb brightness of the Xenon, prob around 700 W, will give an added boost to contrast by having higher peak whites... In any case, I think the street price will make this the projector to beat for sure...

Well, at least that is my hope... That native contrast and clarity of the RS-1 is amazing. I'd really like to see what JVC could do with those native panels given a 800W xenon bulb, better optics, etc... Too bad there is no JVC RS-2 out by Dec/Jan...

Health Nut
Do you think Sony will wait until Cedia before disclosing VW200 details?
Are you aware of the JVC HD100(RS2?) thread, 40000:1 native panels and 30000:1 native projector?

HUh? :confused: JVC RS-2, no way!! Xenon also? doh... when is it coming out??

I see no RS-2 thread.... :confused: Oh HD-100... I'll go look for that....

HUh? :confused: JVC RS-2, no way!! Xenon also? doh... when is it coming out??

I see no RS-2 thread.... :confused: Oh HD-100... I'll go look for that....

Will you report back when you find the THREAD? ;)

In some parameter, there are so many, I am reasonably sure the RS1 will be better. You must preserve the dignity of those who have already purchased or can only afford a discounted RS1. This way they can say I am not going to buy the Sony because the ____ is better on the RS1.

hehe, that is true...

A point, if I may:

The 4000 lumen spec strikes me as erroneous. I don't know more than anyone else at this juncture, but that's a great deal of light -- which means heat which necessitates serious fan cooling. I'm skeptical that Sony could get as low as 22db noise emission (which is incredibly quiet) with that kind of light output. By comparison a 5000 lumen Sony SRX-S105 projector requires remote placement or sealing because it is so noisy. Maybe this one is liquid cooled, or something (kidding).

I'm must confess that I'm expecting big things because this a reversal of the trickle downward price strategy (Qualia 004...VPL-VW100...VPL-VW50) Sony has pursued. The VPL-VW200 is in fact on the latest Sony price sheet so we know it's for real, we just don't know how good it is at this point. Clearly, it should be a big step up from the VPL-VW100, and maybe it even will match or beat the Qualia's color and resolution. Plus, Sony is aware of what JVC has achieved, so I'm sanguine about the possibilities. And CEDIA will tell.

I have the latest Sony price sheets effective date August 17, 2007 and neither the VPL-vw60 nor the VPL-vw200 is listed.

How if the VW200 uses a similar technology as the Sony VPL-FE40? This one uses a 275W UHP lamp and produces 3200 Lumens on economy and 4000 Lumens on "Bright Mode" allthough has only SXGA native resolution. The "BrightEra microdisplay" is the key ingredient for the increased brightness. We are talking about 16lm per Watt optical efficiency.

There is a good chance that this same technology could be used for SXRD.

Also keep in mind that a Xenon lamp has a photometric radiation efficiency of about 40 lumens/Watt. Looking at the VW100 with a 400W Xenon and 800 Lumens the actual output is only about 5% of its theoretical potential.

how accurate are these specs for the VW200 ??? 4000 ansi ???
then it would justify rumours of $20,0000 for sure
even the SIM HT5000 and the DPROJECTION cost $40-50,0000 and only carry 1500-2000ansi lumens

How if the VW200 uses a similar technology as the Sony VPL-FE40? This one uses a 275W UHP lamp and produces 3200 Lumens on economy and 4000 Lumens on "Bright Mode" allthough has only SXGA native resolution. The "BrightEra microdisplay" is the key ingredient for the increased brightness. We are talking about 16lm per Watt optical efficiency.

There is a good chance that this same technology could be used for SXRD.

Also keep in mind that a Xenon lamp has a photometric radiation efficiency of about 40 lumens/Watt. Looking at the VW100 with a 400W Xenon and 800 Lumens the actual output is only about 5% of its theoretical potential.

the VW100 only output about 340-400 ansi lumens calibrated (because of the heat dissipation system that "limits" the lamp output)
i'd say a properply vents-cooled 400w xenon could output 2500ansi lumens easy when you see the C3X outputs around 1700ansi lumens with a 250w UHP lamp (or the Panasonic AX100 with 250w lamp outputing 1400ansi at max power).

so there's hope but 4000 ????

The 4000 Lumens value for the VW 200 come from two sources in Germany and Switzerland. It definitely has to be questioned. But the same people claim having tested the VW-60. This one is supposed to have 1000 Lumens. I saw a detailed test report and photos for the 60. By the way, this one's case is black.

if it's 4000 ansi for real then we talk of $$$ machine

A black case for the VW-200 is well appreciated... to me, a front projector should always be flat black since the bezel should always be black anyway... so black is well appreciated, no more shiny silver nonsense...

As far as lumens and native contrast, along with an improved iris, black frame insertion. convergence, etc.... the VW-200 seems like it will be a great projector! I look forward to being first in line to grab one...

By the way the VW-60 test can be found under

http://www.cine4home.de

Most of text is in German.

Won't the lumens come down quite a bit from these specs once calibrated for D65?

In the Cine4home text it is written that the production version of vw60 is expected to have 7000:1 native with the iris OPEN. That is impressive even if it is not at D65. If Sony gets two thirds of that it will be impressive and VW200 is said to have better panels.
We can not compare light efficiency across different technologies.

As I see it vw60 is pretty well know right now but vw200 is very elusive.

In the Cine4home text it is written that the production version of vw60 is expected to have 7000:1 native with the iris OPEN. That is impressive even if it is not at D65. If Sony gets two thirds of that it will be impressive and VW200 is said to have better panels.
We can not compare light efficiency across different technologies.

As I see it vw60 is pretty well know right now but vw200 is very elusive.

Its an impressive advancement over the Pearl for sure. However relatively speaking, if the JVC HD100 turns out to be speced for 30,000:1 than that is 4x the spec of the VW60. Of course it will likely be 3x the price. But mainly what I wanted to point out is that I think JVC remains well ahead in the native CR department and that is quite a feat.

Now if only Sony could use the HD100 panels in the VW200.... that is the kind of projector I'm talking about... shame, if they worked cooperatively, imagine the projector they could build...

If that happened, think about how expensive it would be due to lack of competition. If Sony wasn't pushing the pricing envelope, neither would JVC. Put them together and there wouldn't be a need to keep pricing low.

...If Sony wasn't pushing the pricing envelope...


Exactly.

Still... a nice thought. Imagine the VW200 using the HD100 panels... But I agree on the need for competition, although one could say there are plenty of other projectors and projector technolgies out there...

Also, why can't JVC use a Xenon bulb for the HD100? They still should make a $15,000 level projector based on those 30,000:1 native panels... not just an updated RS-1...

I respectfully disagree. There's much more to it than just contrast ratio. I prefer the resolution and smoothness of the larger SXRD panel in the 004 and SRX-R/S, not to mention the better lamps and color accuracy. Hopefully, the VW200 will give us much of that with a good portion of the JVC's black level capability.

No press release on this yet. I am thinking that the thing won't be ready by Cedia. Perhaps we will just see a non working case sitting in a display case or perhaps some sort of working prototype hand carried over from Japan by one of the Sony product engineers, ala JVC last year with the RS1. If the thing were close to being ready, say even for October shipping, we would have seen some announcement and specs by now.

No press release on this yet. I am thinking that the thing won't be ready by Cedia. Perhaps we will just see a non working case sitting in a display case or perhaps some sort of working prototype hand carried over from Japan by one of the Sony product engineers, ala JVC last year with the RS1. If the thing were close to being ready, say even for October shipping, we would have seen some announcement and specs by now.

It's coming at CEDIA :D

It is on the SONY Price List
and my inside friends at SONY are not talking :confused:

Dr. My price list dated effective 8/17/07 has neither the 60 nor the 200. Earlier in year product transition sheets may have shown them but I don't remember for sure. I am sure the Sept sheet will have the 60 on it. I am hearing from the US Sony people that the 200 is coming and that it will be $15K. But there really is little other info. My friends aren't talking because they don't know. The show starts in 17 days. The dead line for shipping exhibit stuff the Denver is around today. I just don't get the feeling that this projector is going to be a high light of the show for Sony while I expext the 60 will be. I hope its ready to go and show. But things are too quiet and Sony has absolutely nothing to gain by being quiet now. 4 months ago yes, 2 weeks before the show, no. There simply isn't time for a competitor to react and a $15K projector is just not all that significant to the Sony marketing entity.

Dr. My price list dated effective 8/17/07 has neither the 60 nor the 200. Earlier in year product transition sheets may have shown them but I don't remember for sure. I am sure the Sept sheet will have the 60 on it. I am hearing from the US Sony people that the 200 is coming and that ir will be $15K. But there really is little other info. My friends aren't talking because they don't know. The show starts in 17 days. The dead line for shipping exhibit stuff the Denver is around today. I just don't get the feeling that this projector is going to be a high light of the show for Sony while I expext the 60 will be. I hope its ready to go and show. But things are too quiet and Sony has absolutely nothing to gain by being quiet now. 4 months ago yes, 2 weeks before the show, no. There simply isn't time for a competitor to react and a $15K projector is just not all that significant to the Sony marketing entity.

I agree with everything you say Mark.

It is just that CEDIA is too big an event to MISS for Sony.

JVC will have a field day.

JVC is not on the floor. Off site a bit in a walk down theater. They don't generate anywhere near the attendee buzz. Soon we shall see all.

Mark
what's yr take on the VW200 lumens ? 4000 ????

I have no take. I have no details on the machine. The silence from Sony on this machine is deafening. I dont think its anywhere near ready yet.

imho it's not 4000. perhaps 1500 ansi calibrated which would be smart for large screens in home theaters. or 2000ansi.
it would help justify the price and perhaps they want to grab some of SIM2 C3X family which gives from 1300 to 2500ansi lumens.

i hope they use well vented Xenon lamp that does not "hamper" the lamp full power capacity.
the market NEEDS a 2000ansi 10000:1 LCOSmachine

so far only the pana 720 and the epson 1080 gives up to 1400ansi measured but with ugly Contrast ratio (1000:1 ?) and jacked off colors.

I've read a rumor that the Diamond won't be shown but a replacement Ruby will. I guess that would be the same changes to the 100 as the 60 made to the 50. Higher contrast optical engine, HDMI 1.3, fine convergence control but using the same bulb as the Ruby. Just a guess. I dunno.

mmh then it won't be bright. the Ruby has been clocked around 350-400ansi lumens only because of the "contained" Xenon (due to the silent cooling).
this lamp can give A LOT more ansi lumens!

i hope both companies now think about a real 2500ansi gunner. (and improved ansi contrast).

Digital2004
1 Are you saying that the xenon lamp in Ruby is running at substantially less than 400w power?
2 If you say so , do you know that to be the case?

well the special cooling makes it dead silent but hampers full power.
with 400w i'm sure one could extra 1500ansi lumens calibrated (guessing)
so yes perhaps what you say, it doesn't run at 400w

Speculation will end soon... But if it costs $15,000 and not $8,999, the they need to do a lot more including much better lenses... A Ruby replacement would be a VW-60 with a xenon bulb and some added features... not worthy of $15,000 unless there are some major changes over the VW-60... so again, if it costs $8,999.00, then maybe a Ruby replacement... But $15,000, it better do something very, very, special....

Given the history of earlier Sony projectors, why do you all think that the VW200 will output 1500 Al ++ ??

What is coming is evidently not the Diamond. The Diamond will be the $15K machine. The Ruby replacement is not the Diaond and won't cost that much. Will be less than $9K :)