What a buzz kill. I was looking forward to a new and exciting product that really pushed this technology forward. Oh well.

Then from what I have heard, the Diamond has been cancelled...

CIA could learn from Sony, the desinformation is total.

What I think will happen is
1 VW60 is the pearl replacement
2 VW200 is a ruby replacement and is not the diamond and costs less than 15k probably 8k$.
3 Diamond is not announced but shown as a prototype for the insiders.

The gap above VW60 to 15k$ has not made sense. To be meaningful VW200 does have to provide about 1500 ANSI lumen to make sense.

Is it possible something beyond the Diamond will be shown by Sony behind closed doors that would make no sense for Sony to release the Diamond.

How is the digital convergence correction working? Image resampling (aka bye bye 1:1 pixel mapping)?

Alan G.
Something for everyone?
VW60 - entry level sxrd projector
VW200- a projector with more lumen and better optics?
VWxxx - a projector with extra everything for 15k$?

My Sony contacts just keep saying the VPL-vw60 for a $5K MSRP and a VPL-vw200 for MSRP $15K, both to be shown at Cedia. I will just have to wait and see. In Dwin speak "2 more weeks (and 16 hours)". I am not going to speculate anymore.

My Sony contacts just keep saying the VPL-vw60 for a $5K MSRP and a VPL-vw200 for MSRP $15K, both to be shown at Cedia. I will just have to wait and see. In Dwin speak "2 more weeks (and 16 hours)". I am not going to speculate anymore.

I GOT the INSIDE SCOOP - I will PM you :D

Want to pm me too :D

I am away for the next four days, then home for two days, then off to western Colorado with my wife for a week and then the show. I will be out of the loop for two weeks. I don't know any more and will not any more until the show. I can wait.

What a buzz kill. I was looking forward to a new and exciting product that really pushed this technology forward. Oh well.

Then you may want to check out the JVC HD100 (where ever that may be shown). If rumors are true, it will deliver 30,000:1 native CR - no DI. Wow, now THAT is something - if it really turns out to be true.

If rumors are true, it will deliver 30,000:1 native CR - no DI. Wow, now THAT is something - if it really turns out to be true.

looks promising: :D

http://www.cinemotion.biz/archivos/informacion/jvcdla-hd100document.jpg

from www.cinemotion.biz

Now that looks interesting... I hope the price is reasonable because at the pace this technology is improving, I can't see spending $10k on a PJ anymore.

The source of that picture claims a price of 8500€ for Europe, at least if I understand the babelfish translation correctly. Any french speaking people here?

Le JVC DLA-HD100 devrait être disponible en Europe courant les mois de novembre ou décembre pour un prix de 8500€ qui reste cependant à confirmer.

From the experience with other projector prices, that would probably mean 8500$ for the US.

"...which remains to be confirmed." One could hope, but experience with pre-announced prices on eagerly awaited stuff often finds them higher when they (finally) start shipping.

Bill

Then you may want to check out the JVC HD100 (where ever that may be shown). If rumors are true, it will deliver 30,000:1 native CR - no DI. Wow, now THAT is something - if it really turns out to be true.

The HD100 Does look promising and I will check it out at Cedia. Going from 15,000 to 30,000:1 is quite an accomplishment but how much difference will be noticed in this increase? Is it a viewable difference or just a measurable difference? I was looking forward to the Diamond not only for an increase in CR but also better optics, better light source, better video processing, increased brightness as well as motion flow. It was exciting to think that there could be a projector on the market that incorporated all of the best technologies available.

Does anyony know if JVC is going to release a lower priced projector to compete with the VW60?

Does anyony know if JVC is going to release a lower priced projector to compete with the VW60?

I suspect that would be the RS1 by that time given its age and since demand is slowing down.

Going from 15,000 to 30,000:1 is quite an accomplishment


As an Engineer - with a Ph.D. - I am always one to
ENJOY Marketing Spec-Menship http://www.rx8web.com/smilies/bouncy.gif


But as a HUMAN - not dealing with Marketing Specs.

Just remember - the BEST HUMAN on the planet - whoever
he or she might be - only has EYES that can distinguish 1000:1
Contrast Ratio.

So while Instrumentation can measure 30,000:1 - YOU CAN NOT:mad:!

Therefore - Enjoy the SHOW with LESS contrast Ratio :D

Understood, but doesn't the better CR help with darker scene detail? Scenes that may not have a lot of contrast in them but a lot of shadow detail and dark objects.

Understood, but doesn't the better CR help with darker scene detail? Scenes that may not have a lot of contrast in them but a lot of shadow detail and dark objects.

IN THEORY - I agree 100%.

However - I have always bought High-End Video and
Audio gear based on ----- IF I COULD TELL THE DIFFERENCE.

If I can NOT see the difference or hear the difference - WHY buy it?

The same is true for all this HDMI - Version 1.3 DEEP COLOR stuff.

The Major studios have tried TESTS with humans to see if they
can see the difference between DEEP COLOR. So far the results
are still OUT.

A mass market product at MSRP$4k and a highend product at MSRP$15k make perfect sense IMO. The low end market has the most volume and the most important factor is price. For the price range the coming VW60 has the best spec compare to other 1080p. In the high end market the price is usually not an important concern and many times not a concern at all and some time rich people actually want the one with higher price! A higher MSRP price means more profit margin for both Sony and the dealer and maybe better support for the high end user.

regards,

Li On

The HD100 Does look promising and I will check it out at Cedia. Going from 15,000 to 30,000:1 is quite an accomplishment but how much difference will be noticed in this increase? Is it a viewable difference or just a measurable difference? I was looking forward to the Diamond not only for an increase in CR but also better optics, better light source, better video processing, increased brightness as well as motion flow. It was exciting to think that there could be a projector on the market that incorporated all of the best technologies available.

Does anyony know if JVC is going to release a lower priced projector to compete with the VW60?

I read somewhere on AVS (earlier in this thread perhaps) that the HD100 will have about the same lumens as the RS1. So with that said, and doubling of the native CR spec, that would mean they have found a way to cut the black level in half.

My best guess at this point is that the perceived advantage offered over 30,000:1 over 15,000:1 will be that the black levels for fade to black and low level scenes will be noticeably blacker. Its widely known that this is a weak spot for the RS1. So at 30,000:1 I'd expect that to take care of that.

As an Engineer - with a Ph.D. - I am always one to
ENJOY Marketing Spec-Menship http://www.rx8web.com/smilies/bouncy.gif


But as a HUMAN - not dealing with Marketing Specs.

Just remember - the BEST HUMAN on the planet - whoever
he or she might be - only has EYES that can distinguish 1000:1
Contrast Ratio.

So while Instrumentation can measure 30,000:1 - YOU CAN NOT:mad:!

Therefore - Enjoy the SHOW with LESS contrast Ratio :D

Yikes, I had hoped we had put these kinds of statements behind us....

Instead of getting into this debate can someone just point him to a different thread?

As an Engineer - with a Ph.D. - I am always one to
ENJOY Marketing Spec-Menship http://www.rx8web.com/smilies/bouncy.gif
But as a HUMAN - not dealing with Marketing Specs.
Just remember - the BEST HUMAN on the planet - whoever
he or she might be - only has EYES that can distinguish 1000:1
Contrast Ratio.
So while Instrumentation can measure 30,000:1 - YOU CAN NOT:mad:!

As an engineer you should be able to understand the difference between On-Off contrast and ANSI contrast. With the former we can see differences way beyond 1000:1 into > 100000:1 territory.

As an engineer you should be able to understand the difference between On-Off contrast and ANSI contrast. With the former we can see differences way beyond 1000:1 into > 100000:1 territory.

That is one of MANY MYTHS floating around.

wheres darin?:D

I read somewhere on AVS (earlier in this thread perhaps) that the HD100 will have about the same lumens as the RS1. So with that said, and doubling of the native CR spec, that would mean they have found a way to cut the black level in half.

I am not speaking on specific measurements but If projector A projects .5 ire on black and projector B projects .25 ire, projector B is twice as good as projector A, which sounds like a lot. The quesiton becomes, in reality is this a big difference or a non noticable difference?

If anyone would like to READ about some HD Myths

I will suggest BUYING The September 2007 Issue
of Widescreen Review.

They DEBUNK the 6 BIGGEST HD myths

It has been explained to me ( not me saying so ) that as big an increase as it sounds most people will not see a difference between 15000: & 30,000:1 on/off and those who do will need a bat cave. Im sure some will claim to see a difference but it will not be linear with the number and visual difference will be small but it is sure moving in the right direction.

Alan, based on that information perhaps in a year or two when this technology matures a bit more CR won't even be one of the criteria that we will be discussing. Here's to hoping so!

Alan, based on that information perhaps in a year or two when this technology matures a bit more CR won't even be one of the criteria that we will be discussing. Here's to hoping so!

I think within a few years we will see new technology all together that will exceed todays contrast and offer true black out. Save them pennies!

It has been explained to me ( not me saying so ) that as big an increase as it sounds most people will not see a difference between 15000: & 30,000:1 on/off and those who do will need a bat cave. Im sure some will claim to see a difference but it will not be linear with the number and visual difference will be small but it is sure moving in the right direction.

I think that this is probably true in most scenes, but so long as blacks are not truly black, contrast ratios have room to expand with noticable results.

I thought the native CR of the panels will help allow much more lumens which subsequently lowers the final CR... Sure the *panels* are 30,000:1?? but the final on screen CR, especially if they want 2,000 ANSI lumens or more?

"Going from 15,000 to 30,000:1 is quite an accomplishment but how much difference will be noticed in this increase?"

I'd guess the difference is similar to 3 dB (2:1) in audio - easily discernible but not a huge difference.

I can easily see a "black" screen on my RS1. If it were half I'm sure I could tell the difference, but that 100k:1 would be even nicer.

I can easily see a "black" screen on my RS1. If it were half I'm sure I could tell the difference, but that 100k:1 would be even nicer.

Please explain as I don't quite understand what you are saying. Are you saying that your current projector (15,000:1) seems black already, but you could tell the difference if it were 30:000:1? Or are you saying that if you dropped the CR to 7500:1 you could tell a difference? To me, if you say you can easily see "black", then there is very little room for improvement if any at all so how could you tell the difference?

Dr. My price list dated effective 8/17/07 has neither the 60 nor the 200. Earlier in year product transition sheets may have shown them but I don't remember for sure....


I'm not sure what Sony price sheet you're looking at, but as I said before, and someone else said above, the VW60 and 200 are on my price list. Maybe you're not the right type of dealer. (Are you a dealer?)



No press release on this yet. I am thinking that the thing won't be ready by Cedia...If the thing were close to being ready, say even for October shipping, we would have seen some announcement and specs by now.

Generally speaking, few companies send out press releases in August. It's a marketing grave yard. Everybody is on vacation.

At CEDIA in Indianapolis when the VW100 was announced, that was the first day you could place an order.

Please explain as I don't quite understand what you are saying. Are you saying that your current projector (15,000:1) seems black already, but you could tell the difference if it were 30:000:1? Or are you saying that if you dropped the CR to 7500:1 you could tell a difference? To me, if you say you can easily see "black", then there is very little room for improvement if any at all so how could you tell the difference?

What I believe he's saying (and I agree if I understand him correctly) is that with a full black field image displayed on the RS1, you can easily see that it's not true black. In fact you can easily see hand puppets with the the RS1 @ 15,000:1 CR. If another model has 30,000:1 (with the same lumen) the difference between the two black field images would likely be noticeable (although probably not a big difference), but the 30,000:1 CR PJ would still be far from completely black.

What I believe he's saying (and I agree if I understand him correctly) is that with a full black field image displayed on the RS1, you can easily see that it's not true black. In fact you can easily see hand puppets with the the RS1 @ 15,000:1 CR. If another model has 30,000:1 (with the same lumen) the difference between the two black field images would likely be noticeable (although probably not a big difference), but the 30,000:1 CR PJ would still be far from completely black.

Yes, yes! That is it exactly. I tried explaining this same thing several posts ago. If the lumens are the same, and the CR has doubled, that can only mean that the black level has been cut 50% (this is all rough and based on speculation of course but the theory hold true).

I'm the first to say that lack of black fade to black (or near black) is a major drawback to the RS1. On the contrary the fade to black is quite bright (despite low level scenes with SOMETHING lit in them looking nice and dark due to the perceived difference in the bright areas of the screen). The Ruby was much better at fade to black because the DI kept the light off the screen at 0 IRE much better than the RS1.

EVERYONE has a great reference in their mind for the color black. When things are not black, they look grey. And in a dark theater the screen looks lit up even at 0 IRE. This is where the complaints come from as far as seeing hand puppets etc.

On the contrary, it is VERY difficult to distinguish bright white from a brighter white. Any very bright light is going to look very bright, and as long as its over a certain threshold, it will be perceived as very bright despite whether it is super bright versus brighter than super bright.

Those that say you cannot tell a difference between 15,000:1 and 30,000:1 may indeed be right when it comes to certain scenes (particularly brighter ones). However I respectfully disagree with such statements when it comes to low APL scenes and especially near 0 IRE and fade to black.

The point is that the doubling of the contrast for the HD100, given the same lumens as the RS1, is VERY SIGNIFICANT AND NO DOUBT WILL MAKE A NOTICEABLE DIFFERENCE when it comes to dark scenes and fade to black.

This is a remarkable achievement by JVC. They are delivering the same CR as Sony but without using a DI which has many huge benefits, mainly no brightness compression and the fact that the 30,000:1 is SIMULTANEOUS CR, unlike the 7,000:1 "moving window CR" that Sony will provide.

At any rate my excitement is definitely hampered by its price. I'm not saying the HD 100 is not worth the price, but for me there's no way I could justify spending $8K+ on a pj these days given the "good enough" performance of those in the class under it (RS1 etc). Nonetheless it is good news, as perhaps a year from now we can get that level of performance for under $5k.

Understood, but doesn't the better CR help with darker scene detail? Scenes that may not have a lot of contrast in them but a lot of shadow detail and dark objects.

"...some definitions found on the web for contrast ratio would imply that an increased contrast ratio yields better subtle detail and increases the color palette. This is NOT true. An imaging device ability to display subtle detail arises out of its ability to display various levels of gray i.e. its gray-scale performance rather than out of a higher contrast ratio."
From http://www.practical-home-theater-guide.com/contrast-ratio.html

PF. Of course I am a dealer. You are out of line. I get Sony price sheets at least once a month and more often if there more than a few reductions in a month. When I made my post, the latest sheet which I then just received was dated effective 8/17. It still had the 50 and 100 listed and no replacement models for those numbers. I have received no new sheets since then. I get the sheets e-mailed from my Sony sales rep in Chicago.

Those that say you cannot tell a difference between 15,000:1 and 30,000:1 may indeed be right when it comes to certain scenes (particularly brighter ones). However I respectfully disagree with such statements when it comes to low APL scenes and especially near 0 IRE and fade to black.The scenes you refer to are an insignificant % of the material in commercial films. I've gone through literally hundreds of scenes at random intervals in several films. The amount of material below 5 APL is very small, and for a very good reason. Below that level it becomes really hard to see much of anything.

I have to admit that I find this single-minded focus on black level really odd. Why not focus on a performance characteristic that impacts virtually all material, such as high-quality optics, just to mention one example?

"...some definitions found on the web for contrast ratio would imply that an increased contrast ratio yields better subtle detail and increases the color palette. This is NOT true. An imaging device ability to display subtle detail arises out of its ability to display various levels of gray i.e. its gray-scale performance rather than out of a higher contrast ratio."
From http://www.practical-home-theater-guide.com/contrast-ratio.html

In general, aren't the projectors with the highest CR able to display the best gray scale? I thought these were very much related? Please correct me if I am wrong.

In general, aren't the projectors with the highest CR able to display the best gray scale? I thought these were very much related? Please correct me if I am wrong.No, these two things have nothing to do with one another. Flat panel LCDs with on/off contrast ratios in the low hundreds can have excellent gray scale performance.

The scenes you refer to are an insignificant % of the material in commercial films.
The scenes that benefit from > 15000:1 are not an insignificant %. Depending on the film it can be 10% and more. Try "The Descent" and similar films.

I have to admit that I find this single-minded focus on black level really odd. Why not focus on a performance characteristic that impacts virtually all material, such as high-quality optics, just to mention one example?

Someone asked whether you could really notice 30,000:1. My point is that yes it will definitely be noticeable and particularly at low APL and fade to black.

Everyone has their particular pet peeves. For example, you are very sensitive to inaccurate colors. I am very sensitive to fade to black scenes filling up my screen with gray and being way to bright for fade to "black".

Some movies do not have a fade to black scene at all. Others have multiple fade to black. The point is, just as color inaccuracy distracts you from the film, fade to black which is too bright distracts me and takes away from the draw of such scenes.

No doubt your Sharp 20K is far better than the RS1 in this regard. If this was an area of weakness of your pj no doubt you would take notice of 30,000:1 and what it means in terms of a great improvement in this area.

If anyone would like to READ about some HD Myths

I will suggest BUYING The September 2007 Issue
of Widescreen Review.

They DEBUNK the 6 BIGGEST HD myths

Well if one of the myths they supposedly debunk is that on/off cr's greater than 1000:1 are not necessary as you are saying then there is no reason to waste my time...


I suggest you read the contrast thread posted here...

"What I believe he's saying (and I agree if I understand him correctly) is that with a full black field image displayed on the RS1, you can easily see that it's not true black. In fact you can easily see hand puppets with the the RS1 @ 15,000:1 CR. If another model has 30,000:1 (with the same lumen) the difference between the two black field images would likely be noticeable (although probably not a big difference), but the 30,000:1 CR PJ would still be far from completely black."

Yes, exactly.

"I'm the first to say that lack of black fade to black (or near black) is a major drawback to the RS1."

While there's certainly room for improvement, I wouldn't go that far.

We've lived for decades with theaters that have worse black levels; IMO the trouble is the unrealistic expectations created by early reports of its "inky" blacks.

I'd like to see anyone who can show me a REAL front-projection-based system in a REAL home that can generate over 3,000:1 SYSTEM contrast ratio.

Let me say that an On/Off CR of over 3,000:1 might be possible in a really good room with zero safety lighting and no visible LEDs on anything anywhere in the room. But no way it's happening with black and white on the screen at the same time. Even a small 100 IRE window pattern will never hit that number. On that pattern the APL is much lower than the ANSI checkerboard pattern and the bright part is dead center (where the image is naturally brightest) and the black area is on the perimeter (where the image is naturally darker) and it'll still never happen.

Realistically there is enough light reflecting around the typical room that it's stupid to argue over 15,000:1 vs 30,000:1 CRs. Most of the systems I've seen in my time installing and calibrating all kinds of front projection systems from D50s and G90s to big-@zz Runco 3-chips and Qualia 004s to the JVC HD-1 and the VPL-VW50 have been lucky to get above 500:1 in the real world on the ANSI pattern. And you'd be surprised how poorly some big names do on this test. Cheap projectors = cheap lenses = light pollution before it ever gets out of the projector.

If you had an average-brightness system that was making 25 ftL on screen @ 100IRE, you would need to have .008 ftL @ 0IRE to have a 3000:1 CR. To put that in perspective, Sencore's new $8,000.00 OTC-1000 Optical Tri-stimulus Colorimeter (similar to a spectroradiometer) only reads as low as .117 ftL which would mean that anything over about 220:1 CR would be pegged given 25ftL @ 100IRE. Photo Research's $25,000.00 PR-670 only goes down to .01 ftL which would be pegged at 2,500:1 under the same circumstances. The much more common PR-650 doesn't even go as low as the Sencore. Don't you think there's a reason these machines, the elite tools of the ISF certification clan, can't measure that low? Because it just doesn't happen in the real world.

So you say you can make hand puppets on a black screen? Well when you turn off the projector, can you see your hand in front of your face? Then guess what, the light you are using to make those hand puppets is not entirely coming from your projector. That crack under the theater room door that lets the A/C return to the air handler also lets the hallway light come peeking through at a much higher level than what the projector is throwing at the screen. There are a thousand things trashing the CR in a typical media room. Fix the room before you complain about your projector's CR.

Lenses are still expensive and seem fairly constant in price... I definitely would prefer to pay more money for better lenses... That being said, I think a lot of us wear black velvet jumpsuits in our batcaves, so we expect a lot from our projectors...

By the way, my new Sony price sheet lists the VPL-VW200 as being introduced in Sept at a Low SPPG of $15,000 and the VPL-VW100 being disco'd in Sept. So I imagine the 200 will be at CEDIA. No dealer cost info, or any other information was included.

I'd like to purchase a VW-200... Will I be able to place an order in September, preferrably at CEDIA? I think the JVC HD-100 would be interesting comparison, but I don't think we will see it...

I'd like to purchase a VW-200... Will I be able to place an order in September, preferrably at CEDIA? I think the JVC HD-100 would be interesting comparison, but I don't think we will see it...

I think someone from JVC posted recently that the HD 100 would be shown.

I'd like to purchase a VW-200... Will I be able to place an order in September, preferrably at CEDIA? I think the JVC HD-100 would be interesting comparison, but I don't think we will see it...

According to JVC it will be there...

Thanks for the replies.

Is there any chance the "info" posted earlier in the thread suggesting the HD 100 will have scaling for CIH is true?

CIH scaling will be a feature and we'll be demo'ing at CEDIA...

Cheers,

I'd like to see anyone who can show me a REAL front-projection-based system in a REAL home that can generate over 3,000:1 SYSTEM contrast ratio.
Let me say that an On/Off CR of over 3,000:1 might be possible in a really good room with zero safety lighting and no visible LEDs on anything anywhere in the room. But no way it's happening with black and white on the screen at the same time. Even a small 100 IRE window pattern will never hit that number.
Please learn the difference between On-Off and ANSI contrast and how they apply to real imagery. AVS is full of information about it. Suffice to say that the difference between 15000:1 and 30000:1 and 100000:1 is easily visible in my room when I use suitable material as it is in any other room of similar light controlling capability.

I'd like to purchase a VW-200... Will I be able to place an order in September, preferrably at CEDIA?

Do you know more about this PJ than we do or are you saying you just want to blindly place an order for a PJ you know absolutely nothing about? :confused:

What's so strange? I would have ordered 20 if Sony was accepting orders yet and several of these are already pre-sold..

Please learn the difference between On-Off and ANSI contrast and how they apply to real imagery. AVS is full of information about it. Suffice to say that the difference between 15000:1 and 30000:1 and 100000:1 is easily visible in my room when I use suitable material as it is in any other room of similar light controlling capability.
Please learn how to read. I clearly stated that over 3,000:1 was reasonable in the right room given an On/Off test. Of course you would need to have a $35,000.00 PR-680 to measure it. I'd love to see you measure a system at 100,000:1. What do you live in a black hole and own some insane million-dollar meter?

I understand there are a dedicated few people on here who think they represent the "real" world that I mentioned in my post. Or as Health Nut said (without calling me an idiot):I think a lot of us wear black velvet jumpsuits in our batcaves, so we expect a lot from our projectors...

But like it or not, those are NOT real-world scenarios. The casual reader on here who sees these posts and expects a projector with a 30,000:1 contrast ratio to have blacks twice as good as a comparable 15,000:1 machine isn't going to get it. In fact they are likely to not get any improvement unless they are in fact watching in a "batcave".

I know full well that the ANSI Checkerboard is not real, that is why I suggested the window pattern, which has a MUCH lower APL and only one central white window which will also cause less scatter in the lens than the checker pattern.

Funny that you should use the phrase "real imagery" when the On/Off test is just as much of a BS measurement as the Checkerboard is. I'm not saying a window is perfect, but it's a lot closer than either Checkerboard or On/Off for testing SYSTEM CR. Yes, just as it is part of your sound system's acoustics, the room is part of the video system's imaging. The On/Off test negates that. In fact it artificially enhances CR because room reflections INCREASE perceived light output in the "On" state, but do not impact the test in the "Off" state.

Please learn the difference between On-Off and ANSI contrast and how they apply to real imagery. AVS is full of information about it. Suffice to say that the difference between 15000:1 and 30000:1 and 100000:1 is easily visible in my room when I use suitable material as it is in any other room of similar light controlling capability.


Yes. I think that AudioAdv is somewhat mistaken.

He is correct though that if you have actual sources of light in your room such as leds from a receiver or dvd player, that these can kill a black level.

The best thing to do is to turn off your projector and view your room as it is when the projector is on. If you still see black, you can benefit from a projector with higher contrast. I would bet that most of us who watch in reasonably blackened rooms will see a benefit.

Please learn how to read.
I misread your original comment as well. I now understand what you meant to say, but it read differently to me. Please look:

"Let me say that an On/Off CR of over 3,000:1 might be possible in a really good room with zero safety lighting and no visible LEDs on anything anywhere in the room. But no way it's happening with black and white on the screen at the same time."

The "no way it's happening with black and white on the screen at the same time" read to me as "no way On/Off CR of over 3,000:1 is happening with black and white on the screen at the same time". Obviously this doesn't make any sense. The problem is that you meant it differently than both mhafner and I read read your comment.

Peace, out.

I misread your original comment as well. I now understand what you meant to say, but it read differently to me. Please look:

"Let me say that an On/Off CR of over 3,000:1 might be possible in a really good room with zero safety lighting and no visible LEDs on anything anywhere in the room. But no way it's happening with black and white on the screen at the same time."

The "no way it's happening with black and white on the screen at the same time" read to me as "no way On/Off CR of over 3,000:1 is happening with black and white on the screen at the same time". Obviously this doesn't make any sense. The problem is that you meant it differently than both mhafner and I read read your comment.

Peace, out.
Sorry for the confusion, I was trying not to be unnecessarily "wordy". I have been reading these forums for years, but obviously have just now started posting. In the future I will "speak" more clearly.

Of course you would need to have a $35,000.00 PR-680 to measure it. .
A $150 lightmeter will work just as well for measuring CR!:D

I wish the contrast fascists that troll AVS looking to disrupt threads with their never-end diatribe would go away.

A $150 lightmeter will work just as well for measuring CR!:D
HAHAHAHA ... are you serious? Please please please show me a $150.00 light meter that can ACCURATELY read a single range from .0005ftL to 100ftL.

Edit: Plus getting a light meter to accurately read light reflected off of a screen will be a trick in itself. Maybe if you used a tripod, you might be able to get repeatable results, but still not likely to be accurate at very low levels. Plus it's not making an area-based measurement like a Photo Research would. As such the measurement would be in lumens and therefore would not be useful for comparison anywhere other than in that one specific system. You would also have to take new before and after measurements even in the same room if you bumped or otherwise moved the tripod or the angle of the meter or light source.

HAHAHAHA ... are you serious? Please please please show me a $150.00 light meter that can ACCURATELY read a single range from .0005ftL to 100ftL.

I don't care what you can measure. I care about what can be seen.

To the extent that a measured 30,000:1 CR reflects perhaps a halving of the black level from an RS1, that is something that will be noticable to peoples' eyes, as opposed to their light meters.

I don't care what you can measure. I care about what can be seen.

To the extent that a measured 30,000:1 CR reflects perhaps a halving of the black level from an RS1, that is something that will be noticable to peoples' eyes, as opposed to their light meters.
I am not directing this at you, Lawguy, just quoting you as a reference.

No one has ever SEEN a 30,000:1 contrast ratio in a projection system. The eye has limits and they are well-below 30,000:1. And if you are saying you can see the difference between .0008 and .0016 ftL then you should donate your eyes to science when you die.

Is there a projector with better blacks than the RS1? I'm sure of it, especially on a 0IRE field where there is no processing necessary. Has any projection system under $15,000 ever had a real on-screen CR over 5000:1 using a pattern with an APL of at least 10IRE? Nope.

The RS1 does not have a real CR of 15,000:1 in a system. And no one on this forum has a system with 30,000:1 CR. Maybe it would be possible if you had a laser-based projector, a black hole, and a dodecahedron-shaped room with velvet-covered walls, floor and ceiling and only watched through a welding mask.

I think I will take J.Mike Ferrara's advice and give up on this. I clearly made a mistake. You all make sure to enjoy mhafner's new projector with 100,000:1 CR.

No one has ever SEEN a 30,000:1 contrast ratio in a projection system. The eye has limits and they are well-below 30,000:1.

I'm afraid I might have started all this CR animosity
awhile back here. I tried to make many of the same
points that you have tried to make.

I GAVE UP - all these non-technical experts here
only believe the marketing specs that Manufacturers
publish.

If they only knew how even the Manufacturers have
to twist and turn and go to great lengths to enable
their publishing these numbers - they would all take
up drinking :p like me :D

And if you are saying you can see the difference between .0008 and .0016 ftL then you should donate your eyes to science when you die.
I think if you are in a totally dark room and the projector is showing a totally dark frame the eyes will adjust so that they'll even notice the tiniest bit of light coming from the projector. Of course it takes time for the eyes to adjust. So the situations where you'd notice a difference are probably rare. But I guess the situations exist. E.g. imagine a movie where there's a totally black frame for several seconds. With 0.0016 it might be that the eye has enough time to adjust so that it notices that the image is not *totally* dark but that there's a slight glow left. With 0.0008 it might happen that the black interval is not long enough for the eyes to adjust so that the eyes see the same scene as totally black. Well, at least that's my theory...

Do you know more about this PJ than we do or are you saying you just want to blindly place an order for a PJ you know absolutely nothing about?

I've been doing this for 20+ years, long enough to know which things I can blindly order, which is also why I expect heavy discounts and will open my own LLC. I guess it is sort of like ordering a Meridian 861 blindly: when the discount is right, nobody is going to knock a blind purchase of a Meridian 861... :)

I am interested in the HD-100, but my guess is that the VW-200 will overall outperform the HD-100, and the HD-100 should overall slightly outperform the VW-60. It just so happens to reflect the cost differential as well. The HD-100 is certainly interesting, but it doesn't seem to be as refined as the ealry repots on the VW-200... My only wish is that the VW-200 incorporated the HD-100 lcos panels, but everything else should be superior to the JVC HD-100. Then again, the VW-200 is going to cost more...

I am very curious to see what the quality of onboard video processing will be... If it is on par with the RUBY when the RUBY was RELEASED, the video processing quality should be state of the art using the latest processors... especially given the $15,000 price point. I'm also anxious to see the difference in lens quality compared to the Ruby. I hope dealers will pin Sony down on this issue and find out the exact quality difference between the VW-100 and VW-200 optics.

The On/Off test negates that. In fact it artificially enhances CR because room reflections INCREASE perceived light output in the "On" state, but do not impact the test in the "Off" state.

I am not going to correct all of the technical errors that you have in your posts because it would take too long to do. I will cover two of them as an example.

You seem to think that room reflections have an effect on sequential CR because the white measurement is increased by light reflecting back on the screen. While this is true for a system with infinite on/off CR, it is false for any projector with a black level that’s not 0; in other words, all current projectors. Since the white and black measurements are increased by the same percent due to room reflections, the CR is independent of the room. Ambient light is another matter, but we are now talking about room reflections.

Regarding taking CR measurements with inexpensive instruments, you take illumination measurements close enough to the lens to be within the accurate range of the device. This is a well known technique used by Greg Rogers and many others. There is no need to measure luminance from the screen and it does not matter if you are measuring fL or lumens.
As someone else mentioned, there are many threads covering CR and measurement techniques that you can read.

I
No one has ever SEEN a 30,000:1 contrast ratio in a projection system. The eye has limits and they are well-below 30,000:1. And if you are saying you can see the difference between .0008 and .0016 ftL then you should donate your eyes to science when you die.
The RS1 does not have a real CR of 15,000:1 in a system. And no one on this forum has a system with 30,000:1 CR. .
No one here claims our systems have 15000:1 or 30000:1 instantaneous contrast for any given single frame. You are barking up the wrong tree. The claim is that a projector with 15000:1 On-Off (not ANSI, not instantaneous) and 30000:1 On-Off and 100000:1 On-Off and even 1000000:1 On-Off have all different black levels when calibrated to the same white level and the black level difference is visible with suitable material in a light controlled room. It takes no special eyes. Just normal vision.

Let me say that an On/Off CR of over 3,000:1 might be possible in a really good room with zero safety lighting and no visible LEDs on anything anywhere in the room. But no way it's happening with black and white on the screen at the same time.

By definition. If you measure black and white in a mixed picture you are not measuring On-Off no matter how the projector performs. What's your point? That some type of ANSI contrast or instantaneous contrast is always < 3000:1?

Even a small 100 IRE window pattern will never hit that number. On that pattern the APL is much lower than the ANSI checkerboard pattern and the bright part is dead center (where the image is naturally brightest) and the black area is on the perimeter (where the image is naturally darker) and it'll still never happen.

So what? There are plenty of scenes in an average film where you can easily see that black is milky and the picture veiled if the best you can do is make black 3000 times less bright than full white no matter what picture content is.

Realistically there is enough light reflecting around the typical room that it's stupid to argue over 15,000:1 vs 30,000:1 CRs.

In your typical not dedicated room that's correct. But many here have dedicated rooms.

Most of the systems I've seen in my time installing and calibrating all kinds of front projection systems from D50s and G90s to big-@zz Runco 3-chips and Qualia 004s to the JVC HD-1 and the VPL-VW50 have been lucky to get above 500:1 in the real world on the ANSI pattern. And you'd be surprised how poorly some big names do on this test. Cheap projectors = cheap lenses = light pollution before it ever gets out of the projector.

ANSI is not the limiting factor for imagery that is On-Off dominated as long as it's adequate (e.g. >= ~100:1) as every good CRT projector shows quickly.

If you had an average-brightness system that was making 25 ftL on screen @ 100IRE, you would need to have .008 ftL @ 0IRE to have a 3000:1 CR. To put that in perspective, Sencore's new $8,000.00 OTC-1000 Optical Tri-stimulus Colorimeter (similar to a spectroradiometer) only reads as low as .117 ftL which would mean that anything over about 220:1 CR would be pegged given 25ftL @ 100IRE. Photo Research's $25,000.00 PR-670 only goes down to .01 ftL which would be pegged at 2,500:1 under the same circumstances. The much more common PR-650 doesn't even go as low as the Sencore. Don't you think there's a reason these machines, the elite tools of the ISF certification clan, can't measure that low? Because it just doesn't happen in the real world.

Nonsense. It happens all the time in dedicated home cinema rooms. The black level differences are not subtle to the human eye whether some instrument can see them too or not. In addition there are techniques to measure that low anyway so people like Greg Rogers can tell us they measured 15000:1 or 18000:1. It's real, it's visible and thanks to companies like JVC which are improving in that department we all profit from it if we want to and care.

"Let me say that an On/Off CR of over 3,000:1 might be possible in a really good room with zero safety lighting and no visible LEDs on anything anywhere in the room."

"And if you are saying you can see the difference between .0008 and .0016 ftL then you should donate your eyes to science when you die."

I agree with the others, these statements are exaggerated.

I have light colored paint, a window wall, and skylights in my room, no coverings on either, and at night it's easy to see the luminosity of a black screen above the residual ambient light.

If I'm getting 8000:1, my black level is about .002 ft-L.

I'd guess it would take at least 50k:1 to not be able to tell that the pj is on.

The eye has limits and they are well-below 30,000:1. And if you are saying you can see the difference between .0008 and .0016 ftL then you should donate your eyes to science when you die.

I am not sure if I can see this difference or not. I know that, for instance, CRTs do black better than the RS1. I can see that. Therefore, to the extent that improvements are made to the RS1's black level, I would imagine that they would be noticable.

Even with CRT's high CR, it's still easy to tell when they're turned on. Especially in a black room.

Have any one of you projected an image on the screen which split the screen into two sections , one side completely black and the other side completely white and then measured the contrast ratio from the center of the white portion to the very edge of the black portion.

What did you get and what room will give you a contrast ration of 30,000 to one with an illuminated screen?

My skepticism is not about the eye but about the practical aspects of creating a room with a low enough backscatter form the walls and ceilings where you could achieve a 30,000 to 1 room plus projector contrast ratio and after you built this room would you really want to watch a movie in it? Would your wife want to watch a movie in it?

Sorry if this has been posted, but at least Sony is acknowledging the VW200 will exist.

http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/model-home.pl?mdl=VPLVW200&LOC=3

Described as a 1080P SXRD Home Theater Front Projector but no other detail yet.

Have any one of you projected an image on the screen which split the screen into two sections , one side completely black and the other side completely white and then measured the contrast ratio from the center of the white portion to the very edge of the black portion.

What did you get and what room will give you a contrast ration of 30,000 to one with an illuminated screen?

My skepticism is not about the eye but about the practical aspects of creating a room with a low enough backscatter form the walls and ceilings where you could achieve a 30,000 to 1 room plus projector contrast ratio and after you built this room would you really want to watch a movie in it? Would your wife want to watch a movie in it?
Once more, the goal is NOT to have 30000:1 or 15000:1 contrast in a single frame. That is not possible (at least with current technology) or even necessary. The goal is to have enough contrast in ALL frames so that the black level never shows up as gray to the human eye (never casts a milky veil over the picture), even when you watch a night scene or the scene in in the coffin in "Kill Bill" or a blackout of some seconds as worst cases. The way the human eye adapts and sees gray as black or not black (gray) is such that you need to have a very low 'black' level indeed for critical material. And if you measure it and compare to top white you get indeed very high numbers, depending on image content, up to several 10000:1 and more for the worst cases (Darin measured 700000:1 for an extreme example). And again to be very clear here: you don't need that for the brightest part and th darkest part of a specific image, you need that kind of black for some dark scenes (which have no top white or anything close at all in them) and when you compare to the top white you get these numbers. That's how On-Off is defined. It's not a direct measure of actual contrast in a given image. It's only a measure that sets a hard limit. Whether you hit that limit with visible consequences or not depends on what you watch and how.

Once more, the goal is NOT to have 30000:1 or 15000:1 contrast in a single frame. That is not possible (at least with current technology) or even necessary. The goal is to have enough contrast in ALL frames so that the black level never shows up as gray to the human eye (never casts a milky veil over the picture), even when you watch a night scene or the scene in in the coffin in "Kill Bill" or a blackout of some seconds as worst cases. The way the human eye adapts and sees gray as black or not black (gray) is such that you need to have a very low 'black' level indeed for critical material. And if you measure it and compare to top white you get indeed very high numbers, depending on image content, up to several 10000:1 and more for the worst cases (Darin measured 700000:1 for an extreme example). And again to be very clear here: you don't need that for the brightest part and th darkest part of a specific image, you need that kind of black for some dark scenes (which have no top white or anything close at all in them) and when you compare to the top white you get these numbers. That's how On-Off is defined. It's not a direct measure of actual contrast in a given image. It's only a measure that sets a hard limit. Whether you hit that limit with visible consequences or not depends on what you watch and how.

Agreed. Nicely put.

Even with CRT's high CR, it's still easy to tell when they're turned on. Especially in a black room.

You mean the fan noise? :p

In a total light controlled room with a decent CRT projection setup, there should be NOTHING to see in a total black scene. I can't see the screen or my hand or the person next to me or anything. Sure if I climb up to the projector and look directly inside I can see the tube slight glowing but that tiny light does not reach the room.

Sure a local cineplex can not do that so it may not really that "film" like but many people do like the total black. Digital projector still has a long road to reach that.

regards,

Li On

I'm afraid I might have started all this CR animosity
awhile back here. I tried to make many of the same
points that you have tried to make.

I GAVE UP - all these non-technical experts here
only believe the marketing specs that Manufacturers
publish.

If they only knew how even the Manufacturers have
to twist and turn and go to great lengths to enable
their publishing these numbers - they would all take
up drinking :p like me :D

The fact that both of you confuse on/off cr, ANSI cr and instantaneous cr is the issue not that we are 'non-technical experts'. If you have ever watched a well calibrated crt you have seen a system with an on/off (not ANSI, not instantaneous) cr of 30,000:1 (or greater).

Again I invite both of you to read the thread on contrast as you will learn a lot.

No one here claims our systems have 15000:1 or 30000:1 instantaneous contrast for any given single frame. You are barking up the wrong tree. The claim is that a projector with 15000:1 On-Off (not ANSI, not instantaneous) and 30000:1 On-Off and 100000:1 On-Off and even 1000000:1 On-Off have all different black levels when calibrated to the same white level and the black level difference is visible with suitable material in a light controlled room. It takes no special eyes. Just normal vision.

Exactly. When it comes to doubling on/off with the same lumens, that means the black level is essentially HALF of what it was (HD100 vs RS1). This difference in dark scenes and fade to black should be very obvious to most.

Li On, I meant direct view sets. They seem to be the reference for CR, but every screen I've ever seen has had some sort of glow to it.

Just heard from a very reliable source that the VW200 will have a new lens which comes from Carl Zeiss and that the color of the case will be Midnight Blue !

Nice !!

Nick

Just heard from a very reliable source that the VW200 will have a new lens which comes from Carl Zeiss...


No surprise there, Sony has been using Zeiss optics for years. Let's just hope they are using some of the better Zeiss lenses because not all of them are spectacular.

^^^^^ With a 15k msrp it better be a real nice one, or two, or three. Here's hoping for multiple lens options. Anyone think Sony will offer a Zeiss 2.35 lens on a sled or do you think it will all be third party "bring your own lens to the dance".

It will be the Zeiss 2.35 lens. (it is stated as "Optional Anamorphic Lens".

Nick

It will be the Zeiss 2.35 lens. (it is stated as "Optional Anamorphic Lens".
Will you be able to use that lens *instead of* a 16:9 lens?

Will you be able to use that lens *instead of* a 16:9 lens?

By default there will be the Zeiss 16:9 lens. Alternatively, you can use either the Zeiss 2.35 or ANY anamorphic lens from the market.

Nick

By default there will be the Zeiss 16:9 lens. Alternatively, you can use either the Zeiss 2.35 or ANY anamorphic lens from the market.
Yeah, but will the Zeiss 2.35 *replace* the 16:9 lens or will it be another add on lens, just like e.g. the ISCOs? In other words: If you install the Zeiss 2.35 lens, will you be able to sell the 16:9 lens on ebay? Or do you still need the 16:9 lens in addition to the 2.35 lens?

Will the Zeiss 2.35 have an optional dogsled? Probably not but worth asking.

Yeah, but will the Zeiss 2.35 *replace* the 16:9 lens or will it be another add on lens, just like e.g. the ISCOs? In other words: If you install the Zeiss 2.35 lens, will you be able to sell the 16:9 lens on ebay? Or do you still need the 16:9 lens in addition to the 2.35 lens?

Do not know (yet)

case will be Midnight Blue

Ahhhh... Now I know why this is really the Sapphire. It is not the Diamond.


Since the Zeiss lens is not at the stop position, then I doubt it would be as good as the ISCO III... It would be a real advantage to have the 2.35 lens *in place* of the 1.78, although you'd probably have to live with the 'trimmed horizontal resolution'. Although some people do that now, and at least you'd have a tremendous increase in quality from replacement of the lens at the stop position with a solitary 2.35 lens. I think I would go that route if that were the case and keep it in permanent position. In such a case, the one lens anamorphic at the stop positon should outweigh the slight loss of horizontal resolution for non 2.35... thoughts?

A fixed lens would be okay with me as long as they had another ratio option that was something like 2.35 anamorphic 1.78:1. Something that would add black bars to the side of a 16x9 image and keep the image in it's native size as opposed to stretching it.

Just for fun, a realworld example of in-picture-contrast that I measured (movie is "Death note"). The upper frame had 7750:1, the lower still has 3100:1, it was pretty impressive when the bright lamp panned out from behind the characters head, thats why I measured it afterwards.

With a fabricated image, small IRE100 window in center, 0+5IRE blocks on border I measured around 17000:1 which is basically the on/off of my Dreambee at its current position.

CU Gregor

A fixed lens would be okay with me as long as they had another ratio option that was something like 2.35 anamorphic 1.78:1. Something that would add black bars to the side of a 16x9 image and keep the image in it's native size as opposed to stretching it.
That would be ok, unless you stop to consider that all of your native 1.78 material would be displayed at a resolution of somewhere around 1450x1080. Probably not gonna look so good at that point.

You can't display a 1.78:1 image at it's "native size" and then shoot it through an anamorphic lens and expect it to come out at 1.78:1. Those black bars you added have to come from somewhere on the imaging device, and what you're left with is that all of your native 1.78 material shot at 1080 will be compromised so that everything shot at 2.35 looks better.

Doesn't seem like a good trade to me. Some type of motorized lens is without a doubt the only way I would be willing to play that game.

That would be ok, unless you stop to consider that all of your native 1.78 material would be displayed at a resolution of somewhere around 1450x1080. Probably not gonna look so good at that point.

You can't display a 1.78:1 image at it's "native size" and then shoot it through an anamorphic lens and expect it to come out at 1.78:1. Those black bars you added have to come from somewhere on the imaging device, and what you're left with is that all of your native 1.78 material shot at 1080 will be compromised so that everything shot at 2.35 looks better.

Doesn't seem like a good trade to me. Some type of motorized lens is without a doubt the only way I would be willing to play that game.

I thought the same thing once. But I learned that the eye isn't nearly as sensitive to lack of horizontal resolution as it is to verticle resolution. This was proven to me by a Runco training I attended a few years ago. I saw a large 160+" 2.35 screen from a 720p projector and the 1.78 mode looked much better than I would have expected. I can't even tell you that I noticed any difference at all. And this was with much less horizontal resolution than what we would be getting from a 1080p chip set. You should check it out some time. It really is a good alternative solution to a dogsled and lens.

Some info available on the "Diamond" at this site:

http://www.newyorkwholesaleaudiovideo.com/SONY-VPL-VW200-SONY-VPLVW200-W309C1876.aspx

Here is the actual "blurb" from the site

"SONY VPL-VW200 .SONY VPLVW200
This one uses a 275W UHP lamp and produces 3200 Lumens on economy and 4000 Lumens on "Bright Mode" allthough has only SXGA native resolution. The "BrightEra microdisplay" is the key ingredient for the increased brightness. We are talking about 16lm per Watt optical efficiency. Diamond Specs -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sony VPL-VW200 "Diamond" specs: - HD SXRD Technology - 1920x1080 - Brightness 4000 ANSI - 20 000 :1 Contrast Ratio (Auto Iris on) Bravia Engine Pro Motionflow + 100Hz Deep Colour / x.v. Colour Bravia Theater Sync. Anamorph Zoom Mode Zone Compensation Mode motorised Lens Shift motorised Zoom New Remote Control Noise 22dB (economy mode) 2 HDMI 1.3a Inputs (1080p/24) case color: white"

Interesting if this is true!

Here is the actual "blurb" from the site

"SONY VPL-VW200 .SONY VPLVW200
This one uses a 275W UHP lamp and produces 3200 Lumens on economy and 4000 Lumens on "Bright Mode" allthough has only SXGA native resolution. The "BrightEra microdisplay" is the key ingredient for the increased brightness. We are talking about 16lm per Watt optical efficiency. Diamond Specs -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sony VPL-VW200 "Diamond" specs: - HD SXRD Technology - 1920x1080 - Brightness 4000 ANSI - 20 000 :1 Contrast Ratio (Auto Iris on) Bravia Engine Pro Motionflow + 100Hz Deep Colour / x.v. Colour Bravia Theater Sync. Anamorph Zoom Mode Zone Compensation Mode motorised Lens Shift motorised Zoom New Remote Control Noise 22dB (economy mode) 2 HDMI 1.3a Inputs (1080p/24) case color: white"

Interesting if this is true!

Thanks for the info - but so far - I am NOT SEEING
the value proposition between the VW60 and VW200?

Photo of the Diamond is available at this German site. Also confirms "specs" listed on the New York Wholesale site.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:FCf43k9K4EoJ:www.homecinema.ch/hc.aspx%3Ftabindex%3D0%26tabid%3D3575%26act%3D1802%26sact%3D 2873%26p%3D2%26productDetailID%3D9918+vpl-vw200&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=us

I think it depends on the size of the screen you are attempting to "light up" and how much you value Motionflow technology.

I think it depends on the size of the screen you are attempting to "light up" and how much you value Motionflow technology.

I have a VPL-VW100 [Ruby] Now on a 144" screen.
It is great. I have all the light I need. I want to
upgrade to the Diamond VW200 - but again - I'm
not seeing any specs that make me want to.

And if I had NO PJ - I would be looking at the VW60
as a much better PJ on a dollar for dollar basis.

Photo of the Diamond is available at this German site. Also confirms "specs" listed on the New York Wholesale site.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:FCf43k9K4EoJ:www.homecinema.ch/hc.aspx%3Ftabindex%3D0%26tabid%3D3575%26act%3D1802%26sact%3D 2873%26p%3D2%26productDetailID%3D9918+vpl-vw200&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=us

This looks exactly like the Ruby.... I don't think this is an actual pic of the VW200.

This looks exactly like the Ruby.... I don't think this is an actual pic of the VW200.

I AGREE with you there.

I doubt Sony would be dumb enough to again
make a PJ that is NOT a DARK color.

Stepmback: I believe you are right. Wouldn't be the first time a website used a stock photo they had lying around with specs for a new product.

DrHankz: I currently have a Qualia 004 on a 15' wide SMX screen. Hoping the Diamond would/will be a nice upgrade with much higher contrast without sacrificing lumens or color. Maybe be able to trade off contrast for light output given that it looks like the Diamond has lumens to burn. I am also curious to see how the Motionflow does for sports, i.e. football.

Stepmback: I believe you are right. Wouldn't be the first time a website used a stock photo they had lying around with specs for a new product.

DrHankz: I currently have a Qualia 004 on a 15' wide SMX screen. Hoping the Diamond would/will be a nice upgrade with much higher contrast without sacrificing lumens or color. Maybe be able to trade off contrast for light output given that it looks like the Diamond has lumens to burn. I am also curious to see how the Motionflow does for sports, i.e. football.

AGAIN as a Qualia Owner - Are you seeing something
that would make you swap out the Qualia?

Possibly the combination of additional contrast over the Qualia plus lumens to burn on a very large screen even if the bulb looses half its brightness, which it probably won't since its UHP. Also, I have heard the Motionflow is an excellent feature.

HOWEVER, your point is well taken. I think we were all hoping for more contrast, but again maybe the Diamond will have flexibility to still deliver true 2000 lumens at a much higher contrast than Qualia. In my opinion, I really need to see the picture the Diamond throws before I will be able to decide if this is my next projector.

Possibly the combination of additional contrast over the Qualia plus lumens to burn on a very large screen even if the bulb looses half its brightness, which it probably won't since its UHP. Also, I have heard the Motionflow is an excellent feature.

HOWEVER, your point is well taken. I think we were all hoping for more contrast, but again maybe the Diamond will have flexibility to still deliver true 2000 lumens at a much higher contrast than Qualia. In my opinion, I really need to see the picture the Diamond throws before I will be able to decide if this is my next projector.

I agree - it needs to be seen. I'm of the opinion - if
I CAN NOT SEE or HEAR the difference - then WHY BUY IT?

Possibly the combination of additional contrast over the Qualia plus lumens to burn on a very large screen even if the bulb looses half its brightness, which it probably won't since its UHP. Also, I have heard the Motionflow is an excellent feature.

HOWEVER, your point is well taken. I think we were all hoping for more contrast, but again maybe the Diamond will have flexibility to still deliver true 2000 lumens at a much higher contrast than Qualia. In my opinion, I really need to see the picture the Diamond throws before I will be able to decide if this is my next projector.

You might want to look into the new JVC-Here (http://www.cinemotion.biz/archivos/informacion/jvcdla-hd100document.jpg)

Another interesting tidbit...looks like this is NOT an SXRD projector, but rather uses a new "LCD-like" technology called BrightEra. Don't have the link handy but you can Google "BrightEra" for info.

You might want to look into the new JVC-Here (http://www.cinemotion.biz/archivos/informacion/jvcdla-hd100document.jpg)

I thought the new JVC was supposed to be not much brighter than the RS-1, in which case it's not going to come close to the 2000 lumens he's looking for.

I thought the same thing once. But I learned that the eye isn't nearly as sensitive to lack of horizontal resolution as it is to verticle resolution. This was proven to me by a Runco training I attended a few years ago. I saw a large 160+" 2.35 screen from a 720p projector and the 1.78 mode looked much better than I would have expected. I can't even tell you that I noticed any difference at all. And this was with much less horizontal resolution than what we would be getting from a 1080p chip set. You should check it out some time. It really is a good alternative solution to a dogsled and lens.
Been there, done that, I can see the difference, and it's annoying.

To me, 2.35 did not have enough of an improvement to warrant the compromise on 1.78 material. Especially considering that most of what I watch is 1.78. Unless of course you're in a movie-only room, then I imagine the ratio of 2.35 material would be much closer.

I think Lcos and SXRD got aggressive with pricing to gain some market the last few years but I think we are going to see the price sneak back up again.

That isn't the picture ofthe VW-200 since the VW-200 is midnight Blue, hence why the name Saphire was being thrown around... In any case, I suspect midnight Blue is very, very dark... If it were up to me, the bezel would be flat black...

UHP lamp? $15,999.00? 20,000:1 *with* auto iris ??? ummmm I'm sure motion flow is a nice software enhancement, but .... I see nothing expensive so far on the hardware end...

For someone like me who will probably be using only a 10' wide scope screen for the next few years, I'm wondering if the JVC HD-100 might not be a better fit... Well, hopefully these questions will all be answered soon... the trickle effect is killing us!

BrightEra... I'll have to google that as well. Dang, there is something romantic about a 1 kW xenon bulb, however, I'd rather have laser anyway...

I think Lcos and SXRD got aggressive with pricing to gain some market the last few years but I think we are going to see the price sneak back up again.

They might give it a try but there is still too much competition (too many companies offering good products) for prices to hold.

Hmmm NY Wholesale says the case is white... they probably have it wrong... For a high performance projector to be anything other than flat black, I have an issue with that...

Why can't JVC introduce an HD-100 with 1500 (D65 calibrated) lumens and a similar 'motion flow' technology/dark frame insertion? Would be nice if JVC will ship the HD-100 in September and be more reliable in that regard...

22dB noise on the VW-200 in the lower lamp mode, what is the Ruby rated at again? Seems quiet...

I was reading about BrightEra: I agree, seems more like an LCD panel than SXRD... Seems like they are using "OPTICAL COMPENSATION" which may correlate to the NEXT gen LCD HDTV's are doing with ZONE COMPENSATION... Same method Samsung is using to get those great contrast ratings on the just released Series 81 LCD HDTV's... If you look at the specs on NY Wholesale, you can see Zone compensation in the specifications.... hmmm.

I just hope JVC bring something to CEDIA that will also be a great choice... AND AVAILABLE FOR SHIPPING in September/Oct... not next year!

They might give it a try but there is still too much competition (too many companies offering good products) for prices to hold.

It will be interesting to see where this goes.
The VW60 $4999. The VW200 is 16k. The new JVC is 10k if I am not mistaken. I am aware of few things coming next year and it is not cheap.
LCD may remain to be the only cheap solution.
Lcos could be saying DLP stayed its ground and we have as good a product. At higher pricing they filter out some of the extra tech support that comes along with selling to masses
which cost them time and money. I think we are going to see a reverse trend.

Been there, done that, I can see the difference, and it's annoying.

To me, 2.35 did not have enough of an improvement to warrant the compromise on 1.78 material. Especially considering that most of what I watch is 1.78. Unless of course you're in a movie-only room, then I imagine the ratio of 2.35 material would be much closer.

If you can see the difference then you should look into a motorized sled. I for one would prefer saving money since it is a non issue for my eyes.

Could someone explain motionflow please?

Yeah, but will the Zeiss 2.35 *replace* the 16:9 lens or will it be another add on lens, just like e.g. the ISCOs? In other words: If you install the Zeiss 2.35 lens, will you be able to sell the 16:9 lens on ebay? Or do you still need the 16:9 lens in addition to the 2.35 lens?

If so, this would be nice. One box solution, no sled, no extra lens, no video processor necessary. Maybe I'll have an ISCO 3 and a cineslide for sale in a few months! How much would the Zeiss 2.35 lens be?

Hmmm NY Wholesale says the case is white... they probably have it wrong... For a high performance projector to be anything other than flat black, I have an issue with that...

Why can't JVC introduce an HD-100 with 1500 (D65 calibrated) lumens and a similar 'motion flow' technology/dark frame insertion? Would be nice if JVC will ship the HD-100 in September and be more reliable in that regard...

22dB noise on the VW-200 in the lower lamp mode, what is the Ruby rated at again? Seems quiet...

I was reading about BrightEra: I agree, seems more like an LCD panel than SXRD... Seems like they are using "OPTICAL COMPENSATION" which may correlate to the NEXT gen LCD HDTV's are doing with ZONE COMPENSATION... Same method Samsung is using to get those great contrast ratings on the just released Series 81 LCD HDTV's... If you look at the specs on NY Wholesale, you can see Zone compensation in the specifications.... hmmm.

I just hope JVC bring something to CEDIA that will also be a great choice... AND AVAILABLE FOR SHIPPING in September/Oct... not next year!

But I thought you were ready to buy the Sony without knowing anything about it since it was more expensive. :confused: Maybe Sony needs to just raise the price another $10k for you to really want it. :cool:

It will be interesting to see where this goes.
The VW60 $4999. The VW200 is 16k. The new JVC is 10k if I am not mistaken. I am aware of few things coming next year and it is not cheap.
LCD may remain to be the only cheap solution.
Lcos could be saying DLP stayed its ground and we have as good a product. At higher pricing they filter out some of the extra tech support that comes along with selling to masses
which cost them time and money. I think we are going to see a reverse trend.

I hope you are wrong Alan. With the exception of a few like Nut who just seem to want to waste money, I think these manufactures will find fewer consumers willing to pay $10k - $15k for a PJ again. A couple of years ago, yes, but not today. I'm sure I am not the only one here that can swing a $10k PJ, but given the performance of the current PJs in the $3k-$6K range, there's just no way I can justify spending $10k on a PJ ever again... and I'm sure I'm not the only one. The market (for the most part) and the technology has moved to another level. If the LCOS manufactures are headed the other direction, I'm sure I won't be the only one to head back to DLP.

Could someone explain motionflow please?
If you ask JVC or Mitsubishi, it is the elimination of 3:2 pulldown by showing 1080p24sf @ 5x speed for a 120Hz frame rate and 1080p30sf @ 4x speed, also for a 120Hz frame rate.

HOWEVER Sony claims they are actually processing the additional frames to smooth out the inter-frame choppiness, especially with 24 fps film-based material.

Everyone I have talked to said there's no way it can be done with any quality because processing 1080p @ 120Hz is just an insane amount of bandwidth for a processor to handle, but everyone I have talked to who has actually seen Motionflow in action says it's great. I will decide for myself next week @ CEDIA.

Sony is not taking orders on the VW200 yet, for anyone who is interested, though we have a standing verbal with our rep for at least two as soon as they are available.

With the exception of a few like Nut who just seem to want to waste money

Oh yea, I love to waste money!! So much fun... think I'm going to light up some $100.00 bills with a lighter now :rolleyes: What I am excited about is a new level of performance... While I have no question the VW-200 is going to be something special, I still like to see what JVC can do... Is that so hard to fathom and still have some fun talking about :D :confused: :D :confused:

Motion flow: Skeeeyahhhhh! Hose you down!!

The VW200 case is Midnight Blue. It also use Xenon lamp, no UHP. These specs are half accurate.

Nick

Some type of motorized lens is without a doubt the only way I would be willing to play that game.
Are you aware that running the "image" through two lenses instead of one also impacts image quality? For me having reduced resolution for 1.78:1 would not be much of a problem in a CIH setup, because 1.78:1 movies are "smaller" in a CIH setup, anyway! Most of the movies are 2.35:1, so for me optimal 2.35:1 projection is the most important thing and I'm willing to have some compromises with 1.78:1.

If you ask JVC or Mitsubishi, it is the elimination of 3:2 pulldown by showing 1080p24sf @ 5x speed for a 120Hz frame rate and 1080p30sf @ 4x speed, also for a 120Hz frame rate.

HOWEVER Sony claims they are actually processing the additional frames to smooth out the inter-frame choppiness, especially with 24 fps film-based material.

Everyone I have talked to said there's no way it can be done with any quality because processing 1080p @ 120Hz is just an insane amount of bandwidth for a processor to handle, but everyone I have talked to who has actually seen Motionflow in action says it's great. I will decide for myself next week @ CEDIA.
Going 120Hz alone doesn't help much if at all. MotionFlow is not about elimination of 3:2 pulldown, it's about getting rid of the sample-and-hold effect. And eventually to reduce motion judder a bit.

What you say about additional frames for smoothing out is what Sony (and other companies, too) are trying to do with their LCD flat panel displays. But this is as far as I've heard NOT what the VW200 is going to do. The VW200 is going to use Dark Frame Insertion, which is a much simpler way of reducing the sample-and-hold effect and much less prone to producing new artifacts compared to adding additional interpolated intermediate frames. DFI comes with its own disadvantages (eventually slight flickering, lumens loss), though.

My biggest concern with Motionflow is what I read in the manual.

Motion Enhancer

Activates Motionflow to enhance the smoothness of picture movement and to reduce blur.

High Provides smoother picture movement such as for film-based content.

Standard Provides smooth picture movement. Use this setting for standard use.

Off Use this setting when the High and Standard settings result in noise.

So from this I take it we will need to switch it to High for film and Standard for 60fps material. Why? Also, turn it off if it creates too much noise??? Why should this produce noise if it just displaying the source x2 or x5?

I hope you are wrong Alan. With the exception of a few like Nut who just seem to want to waste money, I think these manufactures will find fewer consumers willing to pay $10k - $15k for a PJ again. A couple of years ago, yes, but not today. I'm sure I am not the only one here that can swing a $10k PJ, but given the performance of the current PJs in the $3k-$6K range, there's just no way I can justify spending $10k on a PJ ever again... and I'm sure I'm not the only one. The market (for the most part) and the technology has moved to another level. If the LCOS manufactures are headed the other direction, I'm sure I won't be the only one to head back to DLP.

Ultimately consumer demand will dictate where the prices go. If Sony does not see demand for the Diamond at $5k, that price will come down or another company will step in to fill the gap. Supply and demand always tend to meet.

My biggest concern with Motionflow is what I read in the manual.

Motion Enhancer

Activates Motionflow to enhance the smoothness of picture movement and to reduce blur.

High Provides smoother picture movement such as for film-based content.

Standard Provides smooth picture movement. Use this setting for standard use.

Off Use this setting when the High and Standard settings result in noise.

So from this I take it we will need to switch it to High for film and Standard for 60fps material. Why? Also, turn it off if it creates too much noise??? Why should this produce noise if it just displaying the source x2 or x5?
Which manual is that? The source is *NOT* just shown multiple times, as I've already stated repeatedly. There's more to MotionFlow than just repeating the same frame unchanged over and over again.

Ultimately consumer demand will dictate where the prices go. If Sony does not see demand for the Diamond at $15k, that price will come down or another company will step in to fill the gap. Supply and demand always tend to meet.

Which is why I don't expect to see the price of the vw200 to stay at $15k for very long. My guess is they will try to capitalize on those with money burning a hole in their pocket first and then drop the price within 3 - 6 months after it hits the streets to capture more sales.

88395

Which is why I don't expect to see the price of the vw200 to stay at $15k for very long. My guess is they will try to capitalize on those with money burning a hole in their pocket first and then drop the price within 3 - 6 months after it hits the streets to capture more sales.


Correct. Something also tells me that RS1 owners are not lining up to upgrade right now. The vw60 sems to be mostly a lateral move. The vw200 appears to be positioned for a market whose existence is more tenuous every day. For it to work at that price, it has to offer some quantifiable advantage over cheaper projectors. People with huge screens would be willing to pay more for an extremely high lumen/high contrast projector. Maybe the vw200 is that.

Which manual is that? The source is *NOT* just shown multiple times, as I've already stated repeatedly. There's more to MotionFlow than just repeating the same frame unchanged over and over again.

It is from the XBR5 manual. What else is there to motionflow other than dark frame instertion? And why would they do this if it creates noise?

Another interesting tidbit...looks like this is NOT an SXRD projector, but rather uses a new "LCD-like" technology called BrightEra. Don't have the link handy but you can Google "BrightEra" for info.

I had to do a double-read of the quote as well... but I think that perhaps that blurb is from an article talking about multiple displays. The first part (before the dashes) is the conclusion of the discussion of a different display that apparently is only SXGA resolution.

The dashes are the dividing line where the new discussion of the diamond starts, I believe.

Steve,
The web sites posting the info could be wrong, but two German sites, a Japanese site and the NY site are all posting as BrightEra technology. I will try to find the links again, but you can find the same by Googling vpl-vw200. Also, not impossible one site got it wrong and all the others copied.

NB2121: Do you have a source on Xenon vs. UHP and where did you find the image of the blue Diamond? Thanks,

where did you find the image of the blue Diamond? Thanks,


Maybe he is a PhotoShop Pro :p

Steve,
The web sites posting the info could be wrong, but two German sites, a Japanese site and the NY site are all posting as BrightEra technology. I will try to find the links again, but you can find the same by Googling vpl-vw200. Also, not impossible one site got it wrong and all the others copied.

NB2121: Do you have a source on Xenon vs. UHP and where did you find the image of the blue Diamond? Thanks,

Inside info guys...
Sorry, can't tell anything more, just that i am not a Photoshop Pro :)

People with huge screens would be willing to pay more for an extremely high lumen/high contrast projector. Maybe the vw200 is that.

That's really the only market I see for this product as well.

Inside info guys...
Sorry, can't tell anything more, just that i am not a Photoshop Pro :)

It looks good in Blue - versus my SILVER Ruby.

Replacing my 004 would not be a simple swap. Right now, I've got the Lumagen HDPro feeding the 004 1080p via DVI. The 004 only allows 1080p via the DVI input; the HDPro only has DVI output - a perfect marriage.

So, if I upgrade my projector, I'm gonna have to upgrade my video processor. Why, because I've learned though painful experience with my Sony Blu-ray and Toshiba HD-DVD player that HDMI>DVI is a kludge, what with incorrect colorspace issues and dropped handshakes, all because copy protection mucks up everything and HDMI standards are not followed properly.

Sorry, guys. Please treat the BrightEra "LCD" info with extreme skepticism. Looks like scaesare's comments above are correct given that German site has now remove BrightEra and replaced with LCOS but still says 4000lumens.

Replacing my 004 would not be a simple swap. Right now, I've got the Lumagen HDPro feeding the 004 1080p via DVI. The 004 only allows 1080p via the DVI input; the HDPro only has DVI output - a perfect marriage.

So, if I upgrade my projector, I'm gonna have to upgrade my video processor. Why, because I've learned though painful experience with my Sony Blu-ray and Toshiba HD-DVD player that HDMI>DVI is a kludge, what with incorrect colorspace issues and dropped handshakes, all because copy protection mucks up everything and HDMI standards are not followed properly.

You can throw out your Video Processor and
and HDMI to DVI from your Blu-Ray or HD DVD
player. That is what HDMI is all about :p

From post #600
"SONY VPL-VW200 .SONY VPLVW200
This one uses a 275W UHP lamp and produces 3200 Lumens on economy and 4000 Lumens on "Bright Mode" allthough has only SXGA native resolution

Sxga?

It is from the XBR5 manual. What else is there to motionflow other than dark frame instertion? And why would they do this if it creates noise?
I'm not sure if XBR5 uses dark frame insertion. I believe it uses interpolated intermediate frames, which is a totally different technology which can introduce all kinds of nasty new artifacts. But I'm not really sure what the XBR5 does technically.

I'm not sure if XBR5 uses dark frame insertion. I believe it uses interpolated intermediate frames, which is a totally different technology which can introduce all kinds of nasty new artifacts. But I'm not really sure what the XBR5 does technically.

There I go assuming that the term "motionflow" is the same across the board. If it is different then how are people supposed to know this?

You can throw out your Video Processor and
and HDMI to DVI from your Blu-Ray or HD DVD
player. That is what HDMI is all about :p

I need the processor because:
1) I have a modded Pioneer DVD player that outputs SDI into the Lumagen
2) The Lumagen outputs 1080p/24sf to the 004; the 004 does not accept 1080p24. The results are basically the same.

Are you aware that running the "image" through two lenses instead of one also impacts image quality? For me having reduced resolution for 1.78:1 would not be much of a problem in a CIH setup, because 1.78:1 movies are "smaller" in a CIH setup, anyway! Most of the movies are 2.35:1, so for me optimal 2.35:1 projection is the most important thing and I'm willing to have some compromises with 1.78:1.
You mean more lenses = less resolution? No way, I never knew that. :eek:

Thank you for enlightening me. :rolleyes:

Going 120Hz alone doesn't help much if at all. MotionFlow is not about elimination of 3:2 pulldown, it's about getting rid of the sample-and-hold effect. And eventually to reduce motion judder a bit.
Going to 120Hz ELIMINATES 3:2 PULLDOWN. Period, end of discussion. That is all I said about 120Hz. Motionflow is different, than a simple 120Hz framerate conversion, which I also said.

What you say about additional frames for smoothing out is what Sony (and other companies, too) are trying to do with their LCD flat panel displays. But this is as far as I've heard NOT what the VW200 is going to do. The VW200 is going to use Dark Frame Insertion, which is a much simpler way of reducing the sample-and-hold effect and much less prone to producing new artifacts compared to adding additional interpolated intermediate frames. DFI comes with its own disadvantages (eventually slight flickering, lumens loss), though.As far as you've heard?

You don't know sh!t about the VW200. No one does. All anyone knows is a few sketchy details based on some websites that may or may not have any factual info at all. But "Motionflow" = additional interpolated frames. That's how it works, so IF the VW200 does in fact have Motionflow, then it has additional interpolated frames.

Here is a powerpoint from Sony on Motionflow technology:
http://www.brownbucket.com/buckets/jbrown/Motionflow.ppt

VW200.jpg

Ummmm. Why would Sony make a two-tone projector, that is retarded, especially the light bezel... Look like an ugly, lower model car or SUV that has two colors of paint trim rather than the more expensive one color paint job. I hope that it is very dark and one color...

So much weird info floating around. I'll be anxious for CEDIA to get this nonsense resolved, but it is fun speculating nontheless!!

I need the processor because:
1) I have a modded Pioneer DVD player that outputs SDI into the Lumagen
2) The Lumagen outputs 1080p/24sf to the 004; the 004 does not accept 1080p24. The results are basically the same.

If you INSIST on using OBSOLETE technology
there is noting I can say. :p I threw out $50,000
of obsolete technology.

Most modern HD DVD or Blu-Ray players convert
SD DVDs to High definition - as good as your Lumagen.

Most of them use the NEW HQV Reon processor to
provide all the video processing you get from your
Lumagen. The New Samsung BD-UP5000 does both
formats at 1080p/24 and uses the Reon for SD DVD
Processing.

And if you need KING-OF-THE-ROAD Audio and Video
Processing combined into one box - you can buy the
Anthem Statement D2.

We have to keep the economy going by BUYING NEW STUFF.

We have to keep the economy going by BUYING NEW STUFF.

LOL

I'm going to try this line on the wife tonight. If you don't see me back here on the boards then you know how well it went over. ;)

LOL

I'm going to try this line on the wife tonight. If you don't see me back here on the boards then you know how well it went over. ;)

It worked on mine :D

She follows the state of the economy and stock market
and knows the tough times everyone is having.

BTW - She enjoys my new theater as much as I do now
that I did all the upgrades.

It worked on mine :D

She follows the state of the economy and stock market
and knows the tough times everyone is having.

BTW - She enjoys my new theater as much as I do now
that I did all the upgrades.

Sounds like you have a keeper! :)

I just met with the contractor who will be building my Rives-designed room. My wife is excited that it's finally getting to the construction stage, and I'm sure she'll love it when it's done.

I'm looking forward to hearing more about the Diamond and the VW60 from cedia because the Sony projectors are high on my list. I've seen the RS1 once and wasn't that taken by it, but I know it was not the projector's fault, I don't think it was setup just right at that point.

I know you have a D2 and a ruby on a huge screen - any pictures of your setup?

any pictures of your setup?

SENT PM

SENT PM

Very nice!!!!

Are those Carver speakers or Apogee?

Very nice!!!!

Are those Carver speakers or Apogee?

Apogee

Does anyone think that hybrid looking two-tone case is for real?? UGH!!!! :eek: :(

Does anyone think that hybrid looking two-tone case is for real?? UGH!!!! :eek: :(

I DID ask myself that same question.

WHY is the front Silver - the light bounce from
the screen hits the front - not the top and bottom?

The VW200 case is Midnight Blue. It also use Xenon lamp, no UHP. These specs are half accurate.

I wonder if the 4,000 lumens/3,200 lumens specification is accurate?

P.S. That case has to be a photoshop job... Looks like paintbrushed Ruby...

I wonder if the 4,000 lumens/3,200 lumens specification is accurate?

ONLY Time will tell.

7 Days till we find out the real truth!

7 Days till we find out the real truth!

Correct !;)

PS. The picture is exactly as i got it from Sony along with the specs (which unfortunately i can not revial). If it is Photoshop then they did it!:p

That is the most retarded looking case I have ever seen... Sometimes I wonder who is smoking crack when it somes to this stuff. The Dark Pearl is much better, at least it is a nice dark solid color... That Blu And Grey looking case looks like a two tone station wagon from the 70's...

Definitely one more mark AGAINST it... Sorry but motion flow so far isn't worth $11,000 more!!! especially with that sorry ass case... (Oops, sorry, I'll try and be patient before making too many premature judgements!!)

Im with you on that, Wet1. I am not getting much of an urge on the VW60, myself. The HD1/RS1 looks like the better PJ, still, there.

The VW200 and the HD100 definitely sound like winners in different ways, but when you factor in the Marantz 15s1 and the Infocus IN82 I think there might not be a clear winner on any of these at their price points.

At those price points, I wouldnt be surprised if those each settle for a 10% market share with the HD1 taking the remaining 50%, at least for PJs over $5k MSRP.

Now if the HD100 is hands down better than the HD1 and has an MSRP of say $8k, hmm.

Anybody got an extra dead horse I can beat?

I am guessing Xenon Lamp still going to cost an arm and a leg, and its still going to loose 40% of its brightness before you know it.

Which me thinks that after a few hundred hours a UHP 400 watts will be very similar to that Xenon, and also much cheaper to replace early (To keep it bright if you want).

Now these 35,000 to 1 and 30,000 to 1 figures is making me wonder if they are also using "fuzzy math". :D

There is lots of fuzzy things going on: fuzzy cases, fuzzy math, fuzzy Motion flow, fuzzy lenses

I had a qualia 004 for about 3 years, and I was sort of hoping they would go away from Xenon as well. It does fall of on brightness more rapidly than UHP, and the costs are just not worth it vs modern, properly filtered UHP in my opinion.

Just spoke to my Sony rep.

35,000:1 contrast is confirmed
Xenon lamp is confirmed

lamp in dim mode, and iris closed? 35K to 1.
Maybe it's bulb off and eyes closed 35K to 1.

I hope its a real number, and I really hope they dump the Xenon bulb!

I feel some 'motion flow' coming on... skeyahhhhhhh!!!! Can you confirm the wattage of the bulb? Just curious if it will be the same wattage as the 004 (700W). I suppose the 4,000/3,200 lumen was innacurate... They would have to put in a 1kW xenon to get that, although I suppose from what people are saying that maybe they found a way to use more of the existing light output since 95% of the xenon bulb output is wasted...

Maybe they are using improved xenon bulbs? Someone mentioned there have been inprovements to longevity, etc... I have to admit, the rapid aging also is a pain for calibration. I don't know if I can trust calibrations based on equipment I can purchase for myself. I don't know how much W. Phelps charges to calibrate a digital projector, but it is discouraging considering how fast the xenon bulb ages causing the projector to quickly 'uncalibrate'....

Can you ask the Sony Rep what the bulb wattage is on the VW-200?

Maybe they are using improved xenon bulbs?

I don't know what the wattage is - but it is a new panel
that is probably more efficient. That is my GUESS

Lets not judge all xenon lamps by the performance xenon has in Ruby. Xenons vary in lifetimw and aging with many variables for sure.
wattage
manfacturer
cooling technology

Going to 120Hz ELIMINATES 3:2 PULLDOWN. Period, end of discussion. That is all I said about 120Hz. Motionflow is different, than a simple 120Hz framerate conversion, which I also said.

As far as you've heard?

You don't know sh!t about the VW200. No one does. All anyone knows is a few sketchy details based on some websites that may or may not have any factual info at all. But "Motionflow" = additional interpolated frames. That's how it works, so IF the VW200 does in fact have Motionflow, then it has additional interpolated frames.

Here is a powerpoint from Sony on Motionflow technology:
http://www.brownbucket.com/buckets/jbrown/Motionflow.ppt

And how does going to 120Hz eliminate 3:2 pulldown? Unless it is performing inverse telecine and displaying 5:5 you will still have 3:2 pulldown, 120Hz or not.

Just spoke to my Sony rep.

35,000:1 contrast is confirmed
Xenon lamp is confirmed

Correct on both. Lamp wattage is the same with Ruby.

Nick

How about color accuracy and/or the ability to dial it in? Even though the Sony primaries are not as oversaturated as the JVC primaries, they are still not right. Has the software been improved to properly correct color rendition? The old RCP got it partly right, but the saturation controls were actually luminance controls.

And how about ANSI CR?

And how does going to 120Hz eliminate 3:2 pulldown? Unless it is performing inverse telecine and displaying 5:5 you will still have 3:2 pulldown, 120Hz or not.

Not sure if all display devices will have it but under the description for motionflow there is an option called Cinemotion.

It says Cinemotion is used to automatically detect film content and apply a reverse 3-2 pulldown process. Moving pictures will appear cleaner and more natural looking.

Hopefully this will be included in both projectors as it was in the XBR flatpanel LCDs.

Going to 120Hz ELIMINATES 3:2 PULLDOWN.
Not in itself. If you have a Blu-Ray/HD DVD player outputting 1080p60, 120Hz will not eliminate 3:2 pulldown. If the projector takes 1080i60, deinterlaces that to 1080p60 and then doubles that to 120Hz, 3:2 pulldown is also not eliminated. 120Hz doesn't magically eliminate 3:2 pulldown. Furthermore you can get rid of 3:2 pulldown without 120Hz, as you most surely know. The reason why projector companies are going to 120Hz is not to eliminate 3:2 pulldown. 120Hz is not needed for that. You can do that with 48Hz or 72Hz. The main reason for 120Hz is to get rid of the sample-and-hold effect.

As far as you've heard?

You don't know sh!t about the VW200. No one does.
Cool down, please. Just because you don't know much about the VW200 doesn't mean nobody else does... ;)

"Motionflow" = additional interpolated frames. That's how it works, so IF the VW200 does in fact have Motionflow, then it has additional interpolated frames.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=880615

The demo itself was centered around motion flow 120Hz . It is utilised with a name like dark-frame insertion technology. I saw a diagram(where's my photograhic memory!) which showed the insertion of a 'dark frame' with a lower gamma curve in order to boost overall detail apparently.

As you can clearly see, this comment hints to a different technology being used in the VW200. This is probably not adding interpolated images. It seems to be a variation of black frame insertion to me. Will Sony name this "MotionFlow"? Maybe they will, maybe they'll chose a different name. But it seems to be a different technique compared to what Sony LCDs do.

Here is a powerpoint from Sony on Motionflow technology:
http://www.brownbucket.com/buckets/jbrown/Motionflow.ppt
That's about Sony LCD displays. I've repeatedly mentioned that Sony LCD displays use added interpolated images. So you're not telling me any news.

Why the consternation over the two tone. Admittedly I don't have to look at it on my ceiling, it's in a room behind the room on a shelf - but having had to hang projectors in viewing rooms in the past I just don't care, but it's what in it & ON the screen that I care about.

Motion Flow can be seen on some Sony TV already.
It is really amazing the difference it makes.
So if you dont want to wait for the PJ to show up - you can go to your favorite AV shop and look at MotionFlow in action on some TV setup. It is quite impressive in terms of making the image movement much more natural.

F

Lamp wattage is the same with Ruby.

That is interesting. Certainly rules out that 4,000/3,200 lumens quote... I know there is more in determining the lumen output than the xenon bulb wattage, but the 004 had a 700 watt xenon and achieved a 1500 lumen rating. Considering that the VW-200 will have a 400 watt xenon (just like the Ruby), even if the efficiency increases, I don't see how the VW-200 is going to achieve even a 1500 lumen rating...

What will this xenon bulb put out after a few hundred hours will be the bigger question in my mind. It's hard to beat the pure white light out of xenon, but the quick half life of a xenon bulb is a big concern, specially when you consider the cost of those bulbs. We already know what happens to brightness on the 004, this will probably be the same thing.

Hopefully they will address some of the drawbacks that have been complained about on the auto-iris as well.

That is interesting. Certainly rules out that 4,000/3,200 lumens quote... I know there is more in determining the lumen output than the xenon bulb wattage, but the 004 had a 700 watt xenon and achieved a 1500 lumen rating. Considering that the VW-200 will have a 400 watt xenon (just like the Ruby), even if the efficiency increases, I don't see how the VW-200 is going to achieve even a 1500 lumen rating...
Per my Sony rep, only 800 ASNSI lumens

umph... :( Damn...

umph... :( Damn...
Yeah, $15k for 800 lumens = no sale in my book

Damn, only 800 lumens? The VW60 will have more? 8/

Hmmmm.... Well, I could buy my father a VW-60 and keep my Ruby for a while longer. Or I could give him a Ruby and get myself something later. I'd wait and see how the HD-100 turns out, but the problem is I really need to give it to him no later than X-MAS... the HD-100 is slated for Feb. supposedly...

I wouldn't let a rep get you down at this point. My rep told me today that they still haven't released any specs. Keep your hopes up for now.

And remember when the VPL-vw200 specs are released this week, that machine is not the Diamond. We do know that the 200 will have a minimum MSRP of $14999. This means a street of under $11K, probably $10.75K.

Ok, so there is a Dark pearl, a sapphire (vw-200) which is the Ruby replacement, and a VW-XXX, the Diamond?

Thank you for the explanation. If I understand you very high on off contrast ratios creates higher contrast ratios in darker scenes

So the Ruby Replacement is the VW200, and it retails for $15k, and that's NOT the diamond? Meaning the diamond will be OVER $15k. An interesting market move by Sony.

All I knw for sure is the pricing on the 200. I do not know what its code name will be. I guess I'll know a lot more on Thursday when Cedia opens. Maybe Sony wants to save the name Diamond for next year's new projectors. I really know nothing about the 200 yet except pricing.

Thank you for the explanation. If I understand you very high on off contrast ratios creates higher contrast ratios in darker scenes
It depends on who you ask. I say on/off contrast ratio is a load of bull unless you watch your movies in a bat cave wearing a black velvet jumpsuit. But most people on here treat them like the gospel and don't take into consideration that how well a projector transitions from 0IRE to 10IRE and all points in between has a much bigger impact on the picture quality of dark scenes than an extra 0.005ftL of light.

But as my signature says, I am stupid, so you probably shouldn't take my advice.

But as my signature says, I am stupid, so you probably shouldn't take my advice.

I disagree with your being stupid.

I also disagree with the statement -
And to think I thought "bench
racers" only hung out on automotive forums.

Have been a professional racer and racing engine
builder - I know many racers race their DYNO SHEETS.

HP is just a small fraction of a winning race car.

Many on this forum - have cocktail parties around
the price of their gear and the outrageous specs
some manufacturers stretch to the limits. That is
more important than what they can SEE or HEAR!

What will this xenon bulb put out after a few hundred hours will be the bigger question in my mind. It's hard to beat the pure white light out of xenon, but the quick half life of a xenon bulb is a big concern, specially when you consider the cost of those bulbs. We already know what happens to brightness on the 004, this will probably be the same thing.

Hopefully they will address some of the drawbacks that have been complained about on the auto-iris as well.

I've got 850 hours on my current 004 bulb. I have a 8' wide screen, I still use low power mode and 1 f-stop down, and the picture is plenty bright. For me, I hardly noticed the light drop-off, maybe a tweak in b/w levels around 500 hours. I'm sure for folks with much bigger screens, the drop-off my have been more apparent, but it's a non-issue for me.

I've got 850 hours on my current 004 bulb. I have a 8' wide screen, I still use low power mode and 1 f-stop down, and the picture is plenty bright. For me, I hardly noticed the light drop-off, maybe a tweak in b/w levels around 500 hours. I'm sure for folks with much bigger screens, the drop-off my have been more apparent, but it's a non-issue for me.

Big difference having a bulb almost twice as powerful as a Ruby bulb. A 700 watt xenon defintely helps out vs the 400 watt bulb of the Ruby and supposedly the VW-200... VERY disapointing reports so far that the VW-200 uses the same Xenon bulb, or at least wattage as the VW-100.

That being said I think I'm at 300 hours with my Ruby and haven't noticed too much light drop-off... Well, probably because it happens slowly enough. However, I'm also using a VERY short throw at 1.45 and an ISCO 3, so that helps in terms of ft.lamberts. Then again I'm using a 10' wide screen.

Well, you have a 700W bulb and 8' wide screen. So no wonder you are doing so well!!!

The reports so far of the VW-200 only having the same 400W bulb and roughly same lumen output as the VW-100 are discouraging....

That is more important than what they can SEE or HEAR!

I agree with you, however, it is VERY difficult to see a simultaneous projector shoot-out. How many people would have the fortune of seeing a Sony VW-200 and a JVC HD-100 side by side on the same screen material? Let alone even getting to see meaningful, or apples to apples demos of these projectors... I think that is why so many people wait for review from people like Greg Rogers who have the opportunity, hopefully, to view these projectors side by side under the same viewing conditions and same screens (hopefully viewed simultaneously as well!)....

Actually, dealers get to see these units so frequently when they install them, that a side-by-side is just about unnecessary after a while. Familiarity breeds...well, familiarity. It becomes pretty easy to see the difference between say, a VW100, a VW50, an 004, and an RS1 once you've installed enough of them. Even though they're not side-by-side comparisons and won't satisfy the obsessive-compulsive hobyists, an installer knows what he's getting when he hangs an 004 or an RS1 if he's done it enough times. The same will be true of the VW200 and HD-100 in time.

Fortunately, the non-hobbyist civilians getting these projectors are almost always thrilled with the performance of any of these. Everything of quality has performance that's at a pretty high level at this point, and we've come a lot farther, faster, than I know I thought we would.

This is NOT the Diamond. The Diamond WILL have a bigger bulb than the 004, and even though this VW200 is phenomenal, it is NOT the piece intended to replace the 004 as the flagship. Since I see a ton of my Qualia customers on here asking about it, I promise you I will let you know when the information is available and a release date set. This is an intermediate piece between the old Ruby and what will eventually be the replacement for the 004.

Not quite yet...

It is really great that so much is happening... Can't wait to hear more about the Diamond and everything else... TODAY!! Wow it is Thursday! Time to Rock and Roll!!!!

Actually, dealers get to see these units so frequently when they install them, that a side-by-side is just about unnecessary after a while.

Yes but how many of us here are installing these on a regular basis... Would be nice if there was a well planned shootout people could attend, or at least a handful of reputable AVS'ers which could report back to us...

P.S. How do you know the Diamond is still coming out? It may in fact have been cancelled or possibly delayed indefintely...

gregr, could you please explain to us on the reasons that plague all LCoS (SXRD or DILA or etc...) based pj to have a lower ANSI (intrascene) contrast ration than DLP based pj?

Many new web sites and blogs about the VW-200 today. No indication about the bulb and lumens though except the one site at:

http://technabob.com/blog/2007/09/05/sony-bravia-vpl-vw200-sxrd-projector-coming-this-fall

"The Bravia VPL-VW200 is the top-of-the-line successor to Sony’s flagship VPL-VW100 projector. The new model improves upon the old by new 1080p SXRD panels that can run at twice the refresh rate of the prior generation, pretty much eliminating any motion blur that you might see. They’ve also added a system that lets you tweak the positioning of the panels so precisely that you can get red, green and blue pixels perfectly aligned.

The projector has a bright 275W Xenon lamp that can kick out up to 4000 lumens (most sane people will use it in low power mode to save lamp life, and keep fan noise down). Sony claims a 35,000 to 1 contrast ratio thanks to their well respected dynamic iris system as well as improvements in the SXRD panel design. The VW200 also adds wide gamut (xvYCC) color support via dual HDMI 1.3a inputs."

Wondering if somebody found some data about the bulb and brightness.

Another article in a German page talks about

"Der dynamische Kontrast soll beim VPL-VW200 35.000:1 betragen, erstaunlicherweise verfügt Sonys Diamond über eine 400Watt starke Xenon-Lampe, an einen Heimkino-Beamer gemessen ist das sehr viel, man darf gespannt sein wie hoch die Grundhelligkeit des VW-200 ist, dazu gibt es nämlich noch keine Informationen.

Angesichts des Leuchtmittels müsste sie aber locken 2500 Ansilumen liegen, genau das richtige für Bilder jenseits der 3m Bildbreite. Trotz der kräftigen Lampe wird ein Betriebsgeräusch von lediglich 22dB angegeben. Über den Preis des „Diamanten“ gibt es leider noch keine Infos, es gibt nur Gerüchte über einen US-Preis von ca. 15.000 Dollar und das es ab Oktober zu haben sein soll."

Another article in a German page talks about

"Der dynamische Kontrast soll beim VPL-VW200 35.000:1 betragen, erstaunlicherweise verfügt Sonys Diamond über eine 400Watt starke Xenon-Lampe, an einen Heimkino-Beamer gemessen ist das sehr viel, man darf gespannt sein wie hoch die Grundhelligkeit des VW-200 ist, dazu gibt es nämlich noch keine Informationen.

Angesichts des Leuchtmittels müsste sie aber locken 2500 Ansilumen liegen, genau das richtige für Bilder jenseits der 3m Bildbreite. Trotz der kräftigen Lampe wird ein Betriebsgeräusch von lediglich 22dB angegeben. Über den Preis des „Diamanten“ gibt es leider noch keine Infos, es gibt nur Gerüchte über einen US-Preis von ca. 15.000 Dollar und das es ab Oktober zu haben sein soll."Babelfish translation:

"the dynamic contrast is to amount to with the VPL-VW200 35.000:1, surprisingly orders Sonys dia. moon over a 400Watt strong xenon lamp, to a Heimkino Beamer measured is that very much, one may be strained as high the background brightness of the VW-200 is, in addition there is still no information. In view of the shining means it would have to lure however 2500 Ansilumen lie, exactly correct for pictures beyond the 3m display width. Despite the strong lamp an operating noise is indicated by only 22dB. Over the price "diamonds" there unfortunately still no information, it are gives only rumors over a US price of approx.. 15,000 dollar and it starting from October to be had to have is."

Sounds like not much additional information.

Hehehe!!! All diffrerent reports... a couple people here say SAME 400W xenon bulb and same lumens as ruby, then a couple others say 275W UHP bulb or such and 4000 ANSI lumens... Huge difference: one is no sale, one is very much sale!!! Can someone find out once and for all what kind of bulb and what level of lumens is this VW-200 going to put out... :confused::confused::confused::confused:

At the very least this damn VW-200 better put out 1500 lumens...

400 w xenon and 1000 lumen may a little bit more.
dont expect more than 1300.

any word on the REAL DIAMOND? The model with more lumens than the 004?

The VW200 will have slightly less lumens compared to the VW60. Much like a ruby vs pearl. They once again share the same basic panel, and offer the exact same lamps as the old VW50 and VW100. The newer panels are supposedly slightly more efficient so expect slightly more lumens for the VW60 vs the VW50 and the VW200 vs the VW100, but relative to each other they will be the same, and are probably close to the lumen output of the older models they replace.

Very dissapointing for the VW-200... They should have done something such as change from a 400 to 600W bulb, or change the case so cooling is even more efficient so they can get more lumens/watt. Probably better to include a larger bub and then run it lower so you get more longevity... anyway, that is still dissapointing news... :( I don't think asking for a 600W xenon bulb is asking too much for this projector...:(

I asked the Sony engineer directly today and he said the vw200 was the same bulb and was only 800 ansi lumens. There is quite a difference in price between the 60 and the 200 but in reality there isn't 10k worth of a difference. However, the 200 does look remarkable and the demonstration if the motionflow really has me questioning my order of a 60. I know it isn't worth 10k for this feature, but it made a BIG and very noticable difference on panning scenes.

I asked the Sony engineer directly today and he said the vw200 was the same bulb and was only 800 ansi lumens. There is quite a difference in price between the 60 and the 200 but in reality there isn't 10k worth of a difference. However, the 200 does look remarkable and the demonstration if the motionflow really has me questioning my order of a 60. I know it isn't worth 10k for this feature, but it made a BIG and very noticable difference on panning scenes.

I have not seen it either but I don't see the $10K
Difference based on specs alone.

If you have a Video Processor feeding the VW60
either 24 or 48 fps - it will look just like the VW200.

800 ANSI Lumens, I'm ready to shove it up Sony's Arse for that one... :( :mad:

I'd like to hear about the DIAMOND though. Can you ask about the DIAMOND projector please...

I'm sure the motion flow is very nice, but I'm willing to WAIT for that...

The really interesting last hope I have for the VW-200 would be if the optional anamorphic lens is a ONE lens solution, meaning in place of the standard lens so there would not have to be a total of two lenses and an air-gap, which suposedly lowers ANSI contrast by 30% (as in my current Ruby + ISCO 3). Having a one lens anamorphic solution would be highly desireable to say the least!

Sorry but the VW-200 automatically reduced its importance by being only 800 Lumens... Major demotion!

I'm starting to think I'll be buying a VW-60 as a stop gap to the Diamond or some other projector next year...

QUICK QUESTION: Would you rather have a VW-100 or a VW-60?? I have to give something to my father by December, an early christmas present to him wouldn't be bad either... That Dwin HD-700 I gave him is on its last legs and flickering...

QUICK QUESTION: Would you rather have a VW-100 or a VW-60?? I have to give something to my father by December, an early christmas present to him wouldn't be bad either... That Dwin HD-700 I gave him is on its last legs and flickering...

I own a Ruby - I will not be buying a VW60.

BUT if I owned BOTH and was giving one away
to a DAD for Christmas - I would gave Dad the
Ruby and Keep the VW60 until the Diamond
comes along.

Saw the VW200 today. First impression was that we were all sat down for a brain washing procedure. That their new ES product will satisfy the most demanding audiophiles. Seems they want to you to believe anything they say. Regardless of it's right or wrong.

They showed the motion adaption on/off. Yes it looked nice on, however a daylight scene looked more like night. And it was their preset they were flipping back and forth on. They have 144 zones/cubes for pixel convergence. Which is nice. I believe they said .1% pixel accuracy.

My second impression with speaking with a sales manager, was that Sony can go fly a kite. Very condescending. They made it clear you can't sell just the projectors. They want you to sell all their equipment. I refuse on principal to force this stuff on customers. Good thing JVC exists. Will look at both new projectors from JVC tomorrow.

All things considered, the VW200 looked nice with Spiderman in Blu-ray. So I don't have a problem with the quality. For $15K though? I don't know.

Shipments will be in Oct. as of today.

Big remaining question: What is the deal with the optional amamorphic lens: How does it work, what is the quality, what is the limitation of its throw range (ISCO 3 is 1.3), and finally, is the optional anamorphic lens in place of th existing lens, i.e., a ONE LENS solution that avoids the pitfall of having two lenses which all current 2.35 CIH users employ....

Speaking of which I am extremely annoyed with CLIPPED SUBTITLES: How does one avoid clipped subbtitles such as "Letters From IWO JIMA" Please ask Sony about that!!! Did you get a chance to see Sony's upcoming ES Blu Ray player, and can it adjust SUBTITLE Location (out of the letterbox area and into the bottom picture area).

The anamorphic mode is ONLY supported by third party lenses (can't replace the Sony lens). So if you want to figure out screen size with an anamorphic lens simply use the height as you determining factor in a 1.78:1 configuration.

If you have a vp sending the projector 24/48 it will not look the same according to sony. What I heard (not necessarily what I believe) is that Sony takes the info of frame 1 and frame 2 and "creates" 4 new frames based on the differences between frame 1 and frame 2. If this is true, then motion flow is much more than I had originally expected and it is much more than simply doubling or 5xing the image.

The anamorphic mode is ONLY supported by third party lenses (can't replace the Sony lens).

Ok, so the Sony Anamorphic Lens is nothing special... just another anamorphic lens option to chose... oh yea, and 800 lumens for $15,999.99 retail...

Sony better drop that price if they expect to sell these... Seems like the VW-60 will do well because of the price/preformance... but the VW-200 is castrated with that 800 lumen output...

I think they would have been better off just coming out with the Diamond and skipping this castrated, half-way piece... I would have much rather spent an additional $5,000 or so and had a real projector...

either raise the price and stick a damn 1kW xenon bulb in it.... or lower it so they have a chance to compete with the HD-100.... (I guess Sony hung their hat on motion flow... Ummmm... Sony, motion flow only matter if you can get some damn lumens out of that projector first...) I know it is still early, but so far my guess is that everyone here would rather have a JVC HD-100 over a Sony VW-200... I might dare to say that it is possible that even if both projectors were $10,000, it is possible that some people would still purchase the HD-100 (RS-2).

There is no info being given out about the Diamond. I asked and the answer was if it exists, I know nothing. That means its coming, maybe by CES. My guess, not based on any inside info.

Sony will sell plenty of these. The lens is vastly superior to the 60 lens. The perfect panel alignment adjustability leads to a sharper picture too. Customers pay for real sharpness. Sharpness sells.

The black frame insertion of the motion flow used for film costs one big time in light output. Every other frame is black. You figure it out. Black frame instead of lit frame= less brightness You could see it in the demo.

I'd be curious how it compares to the C3X 1080p... Did you get a chance to see that Mark? Any thoughts?

There is no info being given out about the Diamond. i asked and the answer was if it exists, I know nothing. ***That means its coming.***

That is hilarious!!!

So the VW-200 is sharp... but the other person said daylight scenes seemed like nightime? 800 Lumens? how did you like the demo? Did you really prefer the motion flow? I'm still baffled why, especially with the loss of light output with motion flow, that they couldn't put in a brighter bulb, even a 600W bulb...

The black frame insertion of the motion flow used for film costs one big time light output. Every other frame is black. You figure it out. Black frame instead of lit frame= less brightness You could see it in the demo.

So that is what I was seeing!!! I thought that somehow when you went to motionflow it changed some video settings or something. I guess I did see a drop in light, but to me it seemed like the CR got much better as I didn't really notice a light loss.

Off to the show again this morning. Won't be able to post today at all. Be out till very late with Art Sonnenborn and the boys. Will lgo to the Sim2 booth today. Saw the 3 chip DLP Sim2 yesterday at the Texas Instruments display. I was not that impressed. To me the approximately same priced Digital Projection International 3 hip DLP machine was better.

So that is what I was seeing!!! I thought that somehow when you went to motionflow it changed some video settings or something. I guess I did see a drop in light, but to me it seemed like the CR got much better as I didn't really notice a light loss.
Per Jim Patterson (Sony's resident video guru) There are no video settings changed when Motionflow is activated on the VW200. There are 3 different modes (plus off) for Motionflow:

Mode 1 is purely dark frame insertion - 50% loss of brightness
Mode 2 is purely interpolated frames - minimal loss of brightness
Mode 3 is Sony's idea of the "perfect balance" of dark frames and interpolated frames.

They only showed the difference between "off" and "Mode 3" in the demo I saw, so I cannot comment on the other modes.

And yes it is only 800 lumens, but I must admit it didn't look as dark as the VW50 or VW100. I believe the VW200 uses a much better lens, so it could be more efficient and therefore allow more light to get to the screen, possibly as much as half an f-stop. I have no tech info on the lens though.

It was the same in our demo. They toggled between 3 and off. I didn't notice a loss of brightness in this demo, but it sure seemed like the CR improved in the 3 mode. What did you think?

Yeah, CR seemed to improve a lot, but I did notice a slight change in brightness. I was trying to concentrate more on the motion, which was greatly improved, and didn't pay much attention to light output. I will try to go again Sat or Sun, I just hate waiting in line.

I didn't mind so much (go to stand in the front with a pretty hot booth babe :) )

Per Jim Patterson (Sony's resident video guru) There are no video settings changed when Motionflow is activated on the VW200. There are 3 different modes (plus off) for Motionflow:

Mode 1 is purely dark frame insertion - 50% loss of brightness
Mode 2 is purely interpolated frames - minimal loss of brightness
Mode 3 is Sony's idea of the "perfect balance" of dark frames and interpolated frames.

They only showed the difference between "off" and "Mode 3" in the demo I saw, so I cannot comment on the other modes.
Thanks, that's interesting! So we have *both* DFI and interpolated frames. That's cool! I didn't expect that. It'll be interesting to compare the three modes and find advantages and disadvantages of each.

Did you notice any flickering issues due to the dark frames?

Is the Sony VW-200 the DIAMOND?
That´s the question.

Achim

Did you notice any flickering issues due to the dark frames?

I won't speak for Audio, but there was no flickering at all from what I could tell. The only differences that were noticable to me were the image was sharpened up during pans and was not at all blurry as the "off" was. Also it appeared that the CR was increased. Those were the only two things that I noticed.

Is the Sony VW-200 the DIAMOND?
That´s the question.

Achim

This is about the 50th time for this answer on this thread.

THE ANSWER IS NO :o

I wonder why JVC can't come up with things like 0.1 pixel alignment and motion flow?

another wierd year of perpetual teases... Now I wonder what will be the drawback of the DIAMOND when it actually comes out next year... Maybe if it uses a 1kW xenon bulb, the on/off contrast will take a large hit... Whose to say the Diamond would outperform a Sim C3X 1080? Then again, what if Sony actualy makes the Diamond a 2.35 optomized projector, perhaps even in the sense you can order it with a single anamorphic lens at the stop position?

I don't know... I'm anxious to see how all of these opinions settle out over the next month and people start hanging these projectors and getting some real good side by side comparisons...

I wonder why JVC can't come up with things like 0.1 pixel alignment and motion flow?

I'm sure they will - It is their JOB to Copy [GRIN]!

I won't speak for Audio, but there was no flickering at all from what I could tell. The only differences that were noticable to me were the image was sharpened up during pans and was not at all blurry as the "off" was. Also it appeared that the CR was increased. Those were the only two things that I noticed.
I did not notice any flickering either. CR did seem to be improved as well.

I saw the JVC HD-100 (RS-2) even though they had technical difficulties with the video player. Man those Def Techs sounded like crap by the way. Didn't do anything to help the demo (of course I just came from the Genelec demo hehe).

I would install both the the Sony VW200 and the HD100 if they were given to me. I don't see spending 15K on the Sony, while the JVC is 8K. The HD100 is 40,000 Contrast ratio inside and 30,000 at the screen. No iris on the JVC. It is my understanding that you don't want an IRIS. I wonder if the 35,000 contrast ratio is to the screen or inside only, on the VW200.

Motion looked fine on both displays. I was most impressed when the credits were removed from the screen on the JVC. All of a sudden I was in a pitch black room with the JVC. So black levels were really nice! The JVC offers 2.35:1 formatting inside the projector. Still need an anamorphic lens for 2.35:1 though. And my assesment is in no way biased since my partner won the Hard Rock gift certificate from JVC. Thanks for the lunch JVC. lol

I liked the motion flow correction on the Sony during the demo from the standpoint that fast pans looked sharper/clearer although darker. But was it a gimmick? I still stand behind my perception that when it was turned on, the day scenes with bright Sun now looked like you put a pair of polarized Sun Glasses on. Why even have it as an option to turn on; if it is superior technology across the board??? The 120Hz refresh rate doesn't affect LCOS like LCD so not much reason for sony to use it as a selling point. Am I in-correct in this regard of the refresh rate?

Don't get me wrong. Both looked nice. But I don't feel the Sony is an extra 7K good.

I was also not impressed with the NEW epson projector. Sure it had 50,000:1 contrast ratio. But it didn't look like it during the blu-ray of The Italian Job they had playing. Good news is that it might be announced with a $4999 price tag. We'll see.

Bottom Line: I would be willing to buy the RS-2. Not the Epson or Sony. If I was on a budget I would re-evaluate the RS-1 vs. Epson with my hope the Epson would be better since it has a higher contrast ratio and costs less.

I was impressed with the vidikron projector. But that's in another price category. It was a hi-def cartoon during the demo so naturally it should look good.

It just goes to show you that the source material is very important when showing off your technology.

CEDIA is one time that you get to see different products in a fairly short amount of time to do a decent comparison. Obviously lining up everyone's projector using the same player and screen would be the best shootout. I could not have been able to come to these conclusions in a normal retail store scenario. So glad I went this year.

Obviously lining up everyone's projector using the same player and screen would be the best shootout.

Too bad they don't agree to do that! That is what SHOULD be done at these shows... Shame...

Too bad they don't agree to do that! That is what SHOULD be done at these shows... Shame...

Vendors are not allowed to do that. You do see a shootout from time to time but it has to be off site. There was on this Cedia for plasmas held by pioneer but it was at the westin.

Not allowed? Makes no sense unless it is one of those 'excuse rules'... something to let them off the hook... To show proper comparisons would be beneficial in shedding truth, perhaps they are too afraid... Well, it would be great... P.S., who showed up at the Westin besides Pioneer? They already knew they had the best plasma this year...

I would install both the the Sony VW200 and the HD100 if they were given to me. I don't see spending 15K on the Sony, while the JVC is 8K.

I think Sony is in trouble with the VW-200 because of the JVC RS-2.... I have not heard one person here say they want to buy one of these over the RS-2 given the price difference. Even if Sony dropped the price, its just too low output, escpecially when you start using the motion flow... FURTHER, the xenon bulb is going to drop in output... So after 200 hours, what then? Sorry, but Sony needed to have a 600W xenon in that machine... At least it would start at 1200 and then drop to 900... not start at 800 and drop to 500... and that is before motion flow... ugh!! I'm sure the VW-200 is sharp, but good luck with that....

That being said, why no praise for the VW-60? that should do VERY well for Sony I think!!!

Maybe the Diamond will be a complete package... the VW-200 is in no mans land... Even if Sony dropped the MSRP to 10k and the JVC MSRP was 8K... I don't know... Maybe if you have smaller screen in a complete batcave then you could actually use motion flow... until the bulb ages 300 hours...

Health Nut
I think it remains to see how this xenon will age or have you run it for 200 hours already?
:)

Hi Chris,

I agree that the VW-200 would seem to be overpriced, but not having seen it myself I am not so quick to jump to any conclusions. I have found over the last months that the things that I cherish in picture quality are for the most part not the same aspects that the majority in this forum respect. I have seen displays that I personally feel blow away the most popular projectors in his forum, yet most people HERE think differently, so I would recommend waiting and seeing the VW-200 for yourself before writing it off so quickly.

I'm certainly not picking on you, but I just wanted to clarify a couple of things:
I think Sony is in trouble with the VW-200 because of the JVC RS-2.... I have not heard one person here say they want to buy one of these over the RS-2 given the price difference.
Like I said, you won't hear that from a person from.... HERE.
Even if Sony dropped the price, its just too low output, especially when you start using the motion flow...
If it were, lt's say $10k MSRP as opposed to the RS-2's $8k, then how would you feel? Both projectors would be very close in light output, right?
Even if Sony dropped the price, its just too low output, escpecially when you start using the motion flow...
That is only a rumor at this point. I read comments from a number of people who claimed that they didn't notice any drop in light output, but rather an increase in contrast. Some eyes are not as trained as others, so we won't know until instrumentation is used to verify things one way or the other.
FURTHER, the xenon bulb is going to drop in output... So after 200 hours, what then
From the lamps that I have measured and tracked, the Xenon lamps dropped lumens slightly faster than UHP, but since they maintained their spectrum better the difference was pretty much negligible when calibration is maintained. Of course that is just with my own sampling and that doesn't mean that YOUR lamp will behave the same. ALL lamps that I measured lost half brightness by no more than 500 hours regardless of the type of lamp.
That being said, why no praise for the VW-60? that should do VERY well for Sony I think!!!
Because this is not a popular place for Sony products. From what I have heard about the VW-60, it sounds to me to be far and away the best VALUE in LCoS right now, but once again I would have to see it for myself before making final judgement.
Maybe the Diamond will be a complete package... the VW-200 is in no mans land... Even if Sony dropped the MSRP to 10k and the JVC MSRP was 8K... I don't know... Maybe if you have smaller screen in a complete batcave then you could actually use motion flow... until the bulb ages 300 hours...
Once again I will remind you to see Motion Flow for yourself first. Also keep in mind that Sony supposedly put in a top notch lens on this unit, and if that is the case it could have a HUGE effect on image quality and make the Sony worth every dime they are asking for it...I don't know. I just wouldn't judge it based on what you read here...;)

Not allowed? Makes no sense unless it is one of those 'excuse rules'... something to let them off the hook... To show proper comparisons would be beneficial in shedding truth, perhaps they are too afraid... Well, it would be great... P.S., who showed up at the Westin besides Pioneer? They already knew they had the best plasma this year...



I think Sony is in trouble with the VW-200 because of the JVC RS-2.... I have not heard one person here say they want to buy one of these over the RS-2 given the price difference. Even if Sony dropped the price, its just too low output, escpecially when you start using the motion flow... FURTHER, the xenon bulb is going to drop in output... So after 200 hours, what then? Sorry, but Sony needed to have a 600W xenon in that machine... At least it would start at 1200 and then drop to 900... not start at 800 and drop to 500... and that is before motion flow... ugh!! I'm sure the VW-200 is sharp, but good luck with that....

That being said, why no praise for the VW-60? that should do VERY well for Sony I think!!!

Maybe the Diamond will be a complete package... the VW-200 is in no mans land... Even if Sony dropped the MSRP to 10k and the JVC MSRP was 8K... I don't know... Maybe if you have smaller screen in a complete batcave then you could actually use motion flow... until the bulb ages 300 hours...


The problem is everyone would be doing a Bestbuy setup. Making their TV's look great and not calibrating the others. Pioneer did this too in thier shootout. They said all TV's were in the "out of box mode" but I know that the Panasonic and the Sony were set to be bright out of the box for retail sales while the Elite is almost a perfect D65 out of box. So it really wasn't a fair comparison. The only way this could be done at Cedia is if it was controlled by Cedia. But even then you would probably have someone pissed at them because their plasma looked worse.... It's a touchy subject with manufacturers so the best way to do this is with custom dealers. I hold these demonstrations from time to time but only once the displays are all D65 and fully tweaked.

I think it remains to see how this xenon will age or have you run it for 200 hours already?

Yea, my VW-200 has 400 hours on it already so I speak from vast experience ;) Guess we'll just have to sit back and let the reports come in... I guess it is certainly enough to say I'm going to check out all of the pricing and comments rolling in... If I can get the price I have in my mind for the C3X 1080, I'll go that route and not think twice... Otherwise I'm just not sure...

Yea, my VW-200 has 400 hours on it already so I speak from vast experience ;)

ONLY 400 hours on your VW200?

Why don't you watch more than TV commercials and
build some real time on the VW200. http://www.rx8web.com/smilies/bouncy.gif

Speaking of which!!! LCOS/SXRD/D-ILA has not yet shown the ability to have lots of lumens and maintaining contrast (as long as they use bulbs). So even though Sony may drop a 700W or 800W xenon bulb into the upcoming Diamond, the native contrast is likely still going to less than that of the C3X 1080... I'm just saying that that I don't expect anything revolutionary from the Diamond... I do not think they could surpass the C3X 1080 in terms of native on/off contrast per lumen... Not only that, the C3X would always have higher ANSI contrast... LCD/SXRd never seems to be able to improve the ANSI contrast...

The only thing left that the diamond could do (in a revolutionary sense) would to make it a 2.35 optomized projector with the panels or by having the option of putting a top of the line anamorphic lens at the stop position (eliminating the quality loss from use of two lenses for anamorphic 2.35). I don't think we would see lasers/SED or such for the Diamond, so it would likely just be a VW-200 taken to the next level... which is going to be how much better? Maybe it will put out 1500-1800 lumens, but the native contrast is not going to compare to the C3X 1080 which I think is rated at 10,000:1 at 2500 lumens with iris all the way open... By the time you dial the lamp and iris on the C3X 1080 down to the 'estimated' lumens of the Diamond, I think the C3X would still outperform any bulb based *high lumen* SXRD/LCD/LCOS...

the JVC 4K however is making great strides at 10,000:1 with an 825(875?) Xenon... Not exactly affordable though...

I have to agree that 15,000 for the Sony 200 seems very steep. I love my Ruby but if I am going to upgrade I would expect more in terms of light. Sure I would love to get a 1080p/23.98 pj but I can do that for much cheaper. These newer 1080p pjs are getting to the point where they are all on a high level picture Q wise. The sources are better than ever (Blu ray, HD DVD) so I do not think I need to spend over 10,000 for a 1080p pj. Maybe before but not heading into 2008. If I were to upgrade soon the JVC 200 would end up with my money. I do not want to spend that much on the new sony if it is not going to be a night and day difference. And many initial reports are that it will not be. I guess I can always wait another year before upgrading. Maybe I will install another new lamp later this year to make me feel like I did. :D Well, for at least the first few hundred hours! :) Speaking of bulbs, I do want to make sure my next pj has cheaper ones... ;)

joerod
Cheaper bulbs or no bulbs?

"""to compare to the C3X 1080 which I think is rated at 10,000:1 at 2500 lumens with iris all the way open... """

no way this pr. can do all at the same time.
i mean that it is impossible even with dc4 to get from that unit
2500 lumen at d 65 at 10000:1 cr.
no way.
best case is at d 65 at max cr. may a good 1000 lumen not more.

if i am wrong i consider this pr. for myself.
may you can get arround 5-6000:1 at d65 at full lumens.

but from all what we hear from cedia i think this unit is a very very good pr.
for sure some of the best at cedia 2007.

The VW200 can be ordered now. The retail price is $15,999. Delivery next month, or beginning of November.

<<< E C H O >>>

:)

800 lumens and falling <cough>

nice lens by the way ;)

Crickets are out tonight.

You can always buy a Qualia if you want lumens. It's sharper than any of the new guys. Better colors, too. But I'm biased.