The VW200 can be ordered now. The retail price is $15,999. Delivery next month, or beginning of November.

LET ME RUSH OUT and

NOT ORDER ONE :mad:

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Anyone see a 700W xenon bulb laying around?

You can always buy a Qualia if you want lumens.

Nah, I'm going with a C3X 1080. If Sony dropped even a 600 W xenon bulb into the VW-200, I would have gone for it...

But I'm biased.

I suppose if you're a Sony dealer, I guess you might be? All I can say is DIAMOND!!! But then again, I doub't I'll be looking for a couple years or so... Lasers, 4K, SED... By the time it is ready *and* falls in to the sub $20k range, it will be a few years... What is the Diamond going to bring to the table? a slightly better lens and a 700-800W xenon bulb? VW-200..... crash and burn....

Real-world distribution for Sony >>> real-world distribution for JVC in the home-theater channel.

That's why Sony isn't "in trouble" at nearly twice the price of the JVC.

They'll say as many as they forecast, +/- 10%, I can all but guarantee.

And JVC? They'll do quite fine themselves.

You can always buy a Qualia if you want lumens. It's sharper than any of the new guys. Better colors, too. But I'm biased.

There is no questions that the Qualia is much brighter, but do you think it is sharper?? I thought the 200 looked a bit sharper than the Qualia in our showroom.

The VW-200 had no problems lighting up a 110" 1.78:1 screen, even with Motionflow on and the lamp on the low setting. And I imagine a 120" would be a non-issue as well. The high contrast ratio makes the whites seem brighter than another 800-lumen projector with 1/4 the CR.

I don't think the price is as far out of line as the rest of you. Sure it would be great to have 1,200 lumens for the same price, but I don't think it will hurt the VW-200's sales very much at all.

Here is the actual US spec sheet if anyone is interested:
SpecSheetVPLVW200.pdf (http://www.brownbucket.com/buckets/jbrown/SpecSheetVPLVW200.pdf)

I for one will not be recommending the VW200 to anyone. I can't in good conscience try to sell them a product when they could use that extra money on upgrades like a video processor, anamorphic lens, automation, or self masking screen.

Personally, as an owner of a Ruby, I really wanted to buy the VW-200. The lumens are for all intensive purposes the same. I really want to support the manufacturers decisions to provide high quality lenses. I want to be able to give money to a company that designs a nice product. To be honest, even though I was willing to pay more than the current asking price of the VW-200, I'm just not happy with 800 lumens that falls fairly rapidly to much lower levels. I'm not alone in that regard. I think Sony displayed real short sightedness when it came to not providing a somewhat more powerful bulb with this level of projector. The bulb/lumens/aging bulb is the only problem I have with this projector, otherwise I'm sure it would be an outstanding projector.

There is no questions that the Qualia is much brighter, but do you think it is sharper?? I thought the 200 looked a bit sharper than the Qualia in our showroom.

I do think it is sharper - better lens, larger panels, more light output. But it's not as if the VW200 isn't sharp. And the VW200 has the electronic pixel convergence accurate to 1/10th of a pixel going for it. The biggest difference between them to me is the color range. The 004's colors still look more realistic to me. We'll have to see how a VW200 calibrates.

But how did you get a VW200 in your showroom already? They haven't been released. You couldn't even order one, officially, until yesterday.

I do think it is sharper - better lens, larger panels, more light output. But it's not as if the VW200 isn't sharp. And the VW200 has the electronic pixel convergence accurate to 1/10th of a pixel going for it. The biggest difference between them to me is the color range. The 004's colors still look more realistic to me. We'll have to see how a VW200 calibrates.

But how did you get a VW200 in your showroom already? They haven't been released. You couldn't even order one, officially, until yesterday.

Qualia was in the showroom, not the 200.

Just noticed that the VW200 is no longer available for purchase according to the Sony website....interesting. That makes it easier for me...I'll just get the 60.

Just noticed that the VW200 is no longer available for purchase according to the Sony website....interesting. That makes it easier for me...I'll just get the 60.

If you are reffering to Sony Style, then the 200 has yet to appear on it and neither has the 60. I haven't heard anything about the 200 being abandoned. If anything, they would just lower the price and try to recoup some $ that they spent designing and marketing the 200.

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10151&catalogId=10551&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665227483

This link at Sonystyle lists the VW200 and says it's no longer available for purchase....

This link at Sonystyle lists the VW200 and says it's no longer available for purchase....
That doesn't necessarily mean that it will never be available for purchase, right?

Dropping the price isn't really the problem. With a 400W bulb, I wouldn't pay $10,000 for it. Stick in a 700 Watt bulb and keep the price the same, would probably buy it. Then again, as good as motion flow might be, so is JVC's 30,000:1 native contrast... By the time Sony puts a 600 or 700W xenon in the VW-200, who is to say what the contrast performance will be like? either way, I think the VW-200 would be an interesting projector with a 600-700W xenon bulb... not now. I have a feeling they are getting lots of negative feedback on the current state of the VW-200. Again, it is a shame because I really want to reward them for higher quality optics... while they are at it, please drop the two-tone case. The VW-200 would look much better in black, or at the least a homogenous, very dark color...

They woul be better scrapping the VW-200 and just going for the Diamond.

Just received my throw distance charts for the $14,999 VW200 and $5499 VW60.

Plus, I should have mentioned that the details on the anamorphic seting up of the projectors was also included. Sony recommends Schneider or Panamorph.

http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10151&catalogId=10551&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665227483

This link at Sonystyle lists the VW200 and says it's no longer available for purchase....

How did you find that page? I looked at the projector pages and the 200 isn't in there. Please let us know!

Is this a hidden page that has yet to be updated? Perhaps that is why the message is in there.

I did a google search on the vw200 and it took me to that page.

Yeah, I just realized that and came back to report that I found out how you found it. Also, here is the vw60 http://www.sonystyle.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10151&catalogId=10551&langId=-1&productId=8198552921665192796 and it also says no longer available. These pages have just not been updated yet for the common user. Google rocks how it can find things like this though!!

Rest assured, they're both available now for ordering.

Yep. And I and others have proofs of the product brouchures but can't share them.

pearl?
ruby?
now even diamond?

what do they represent?:confused:

anything else?

pearl?
ruby?
now even diamond?

what do they represent?:confused:

anything else?

Jewelry :D

got it, tks.;)

Jewelry :D

Saw the Diamond yesterday on it's German premiere at a show in Hannover. Have admittedly never seen Ruby or Qualia. Still, I wanted to cry, because I could never afford this beauty. Compared to the Mitsubishis, Panasonics and whatever else was on display, it was a league of it's own. I didn't think 2-D could look like that. The image pops off the screen, the motion is incredibly fluid.

Too bad it'll be some years until technology like that will be affordable for me...

You must be talking about the VW-200 which is not the diamond.

You must be talking about the VW-200 which is not the diamond.

I'm assuming the same thing. I'm still wondering what evidence exists that there actually will be a creature called Diamond, although I saw the VW-200 and VW-60 at CEDIA, so there's no speculation there.

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

I'm still wondering who is going to buy the VW-200? I have not yet heard of one person who is interested in ordering the VW-200... If somebody does order it, I'd love to know the application... (I have a hard time believing that anyone would buy a $15K projector with 800 lumens that will fairly quickly fall to 400 lumens...)

The originally Ruby had no competition and was priced at $10K, so it made sense that people accepted the relatively low lumen output at that time... but times have changed since the Ruby was released. Not only that, it has been said that motion flow further reduces lumen output to some degree... even if it didn't, the Ruby was borderline low on lumen output to begin with... Like I said, I'd be curious to learn who will buy the VW-200, especially when you have the JVC-RS2 coming out. While I applaud Sony's use of higher quality lens and vastly improved sharpness (partly due to the convergence adjustment), I'm still baffled that Sony though that they would sell a $15K projector with such low lumen output...

I have the WV60 so for 3X the amount msrp it would have to make popcorn. I seriously do not know how it will stack up against the Black Pear. Maybe I should get one to compare... :)

I'm still wondering who is going to buy the VW-200? I have not yet heard of one person who is interested in ordering the VW-200... If somebody does order it, I'd love to know the application... (I have a hard time believing that anyone would buy a $15K projector with 800 lumens that will fairly quickly fall to 400 lumens...)

I'm a former Qualia 004 owner, and a contented Sharp XV-Z20000 owner. That said, I went to CEDIA wanting to love what I hoped would be the "2d coming" of Qualia at a better price point.

I didn't see it. While the similarities to Qualia are there, there's too much that can be had for much cheaper elsewhere. The Zeiss lens is nice, but, ultimately, the light output is what has to be the difference maker, and maybe they just can't do it at that price point. For me to go from a great projector at (now) $6999, to one that is over twice that much would be strictly lateral, at best, in terms of performance, and nonsensical from a standpoint of value.

I don't know why anyone would purchase it either.

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

..If somebody does order it, I'd love to know the application... (I have a hard time believing that anyone would buy a $15K projector with 800 lumens that will fairly quickly fall to 400 lumens...)...Well if one is looking at $20K Marantz 11S1 1DLPs and $15K SIM 3000 1DLPs wit <= lumens... :):)

If I am going to start upgrading pjs every 2 years I do not want to get one for over 10,000! :eek: At least getting ones that have a msrp of 4999 to 6999 when it comes time to get a new one I won't take such a big bath. It will be easier to move and then get the next big thing in that price range... ;)

Not to mention the VW-60 is significantly brighter than the VW-200... Lumen output is not even one of my biggest concerns or I would not have bought the Ruby in the first place... However, watching the lumens steadily decrease to unaccepatable... is unnaceptable. I'm not paying for a repeat of the Ruby... One of the major weaknesses of the Ruby was the low lumen output that becomes unacceptable as the bulb ages failry rapidly and also requires a tedious amount of recalibration. The VW-200 really hasn't improved on this major weakness of the Ruby, and some might say it is slightly worse with decreased lumens if you intend to use motion flow. We have also read some preliminary reports that motion flow may trade one artifact for another...

I'm just so dissapointed since I really thought I'd be purchasing the VW-200, but I am going to go with the Sim C3X1080 instead... Would be great to hear about a Diamond if it is coming to CES...

So the VW-60 is selling like hotcakes... The VW-200, will it be cancelled and re-issued as the diamond with a new case and brighter 700W xenon bulb at CES? Whatever the deal is, the VW-200 is unnapealing and I have yet to hear of one sold so far...

Health Nut
How can you expect a product to have benn sold before availability? You totally dismiss a person crying of joy after seeing vw200. I agree it should have had more power but not everyone uses a big screen. Also the lamp aging could be improved with vw200?
If I were you I would wait for CES until making a decision. Play with a vw60 as a hold you over projector or whatever else you want to get.
I am pretty sure Sony has some cool stuff coming. W.Mayer is seeing 4k in his crystal ball for 08.

I agree with Mattias. Don't dismiss the projector without having seen it first. I think the strong points are good optics, motion flow and hopefully very accurate colors. People who have not too big screens might be extremely happy with such a projector. Personally, I don't need ultra high lumens. To me motion flow sounds very exciting. However, the price does distract me "slightly"...

Madshi. When has price ever distracted you? :) Its only money.

You were right, I did see the VW-200 (http://www.grobi.tv/seiten/neuigkeiten/news-aktuell/sony-vw200.html). My mistake :o

With regards to Motion Flow, the guy at the show was explaining how it would make the movie look more "video-like" in some people's eyes. He said some like it, some don't and some like it only with certain movies. That didn't sound all that great to me as I wonder if it indeed introduces new artifacts. Then again, the Spidey 3 Blu-Ray they had running looked unlike anything I had ever seen which is to say: far superior.

Health Nut
W.Mayer is seeing 4k in his crystal ball for 08.

Mattias,

Care to elaborate on 4k? Do you mean 4 million pixels?

Actually approximately 8 million pixels.

Madshi. When has price ever distracted you? :) Its only money.
Heh... :) The problem is not the price itself. Projectors are moving forward so fast these days that a projector which costs 15k today might be worth only 5k in 12 months from now. That's too much of a loss for my taste. I think the money loss on these expensive projectors is exponentially bigger than the money loss on midstream projectors. Because of that I think midstream projectors are probably the wiser choice. Buying those top of the line projectors might lose more money than buying expensive cars! E.g. a Porsche doesn't lose much of its value over time.

Exactly how I feel. Sony has missed the price on the WV200. It should have been at 10,000 like the Ruby. Same for JVC and their RS2... I would much rather use my WV60 until the WV80 hits... ;)

This is a strange thread. People are giving up on a pj before it has even been seen/reviewed.

The VW200 per Cine4Home measures 70% higher static and 2X DI CR over the VW60. Factor in the raves about MotionFlow, and the Zeis lens... :D
We had a VW200 in our hands yesterday...

First measurements showed 40,000:1 with Dynamic Iris and around 6000:1 up to 8500:1 with static Iris... all contrast values @D65

Really impressive is the motion sharpness of that projector, especially with sports...


About color: Color space is in "normal" mode perfectly adjusted to HDTV-standard. So no need for RCP usage anymore...

I've taken orders on three, not exactly a give up mode. I think people wanted more, especially lumens, but whatever. Something has a cost of manufacture, a manufacturer profit margin, and a reseller margin. It should MSRP for $10K some say regardless of these factors. You make it and sell it for that.

Well, I'm not exactly "giving" up on this one, I just never planned to get it in the first place... :) It does look like a good one to me. Funny enough I started a thread on motion blur due to the sample-and-hold effect some months ago before we knew what the VW200 would do. I was hoping that projectors would soon "simulate" the CRT flicker to improve motion sharpness. And here we go!! So I'm quite happy with what Sony has done here. It's just that I expect other (much better) light sources like laser or LED to replace the terrible bulb technology soon. Also I still hope for a native 2.35:1 projector. And things look like in a year or two contrast might double again. I don't think these technogical improvements will continue forever. I think sooner or later we'll end up with a projector which cannot be topped that much by the next model, anymore. At that point in time I might be willing to shell out the big cash and buy a top of the line model.

Technology never stops. It continually changes sometimes stepping back but usually going forward. A good friend of mine here on AVS, and a classic moron lke me and many others here, several years ago posted the advancements he wanted in a FP to make him happy. He long ago got them all and two years later would laugh at how bad that projector was in comparison to what's available today. Never think of any FP as anything other than a rapidly depreciating chattel. IRS should allow a complete write off of any digial projector over a 4 year period.

I just can't help but feel that if I were to spend the money on the WV200 that they will release next year the WV70 which will do everything it does and for 4999. Actually, I also fell that the WV60 will not be far enough behing in performance to justify the price difference... ;)

I just can't help but feel that if I were to spend the money on the WV200 that they will release next year the WV70 which will do everything it does and for 4999.
The lens in the VW70 will surely not be as good.

Nor the lamp, nor the convergence system. Will be the 200 be a classic, probably not but no other digital bulb has been either.

So I mean the WV80. It took 2 generations of the sony 4999 pjs to pass the Ruby. So I bet it would be about the same for the WV200...

It's just that I expect other (much better) light sources like laser or LED to replace the terrible bulb technology soon. Also I still hope for a native 2.35:1 projector.

Defintely. We have to get rid of the 'double lens with air gap' killing our sharpness and ANSI contrast. Anamorphic lenses as a 'second' lens are just not desireable... At the very least, an affordable automated zoom would be a good start, others include 4K resolution with the 2538 x 1080 portion used and no need for an anamorphic lens (until Super Blu Ray 4K comes out :), other thoughts would be native 2.35 panels, and lastly, some sort of anamorphic/hybrid lens at the STOP position, so there is only ONE lens.

things look like in a year or two contrast might double again. I don't think these technogical improvements will continue forever. I think sooner or later we'll end up with a projector which cannot be topped that much by the next model, anymore. At that point in time I might be willing to shell out the big cash and buy a top of the line model.

Bulb based projectors are going to have minimal further improvements, so the next big stop will be laser/LED, 4K, and hopefully some of the above improvements that help natively display 2.35. I think this is a good time to buy a C3X1080 since it already has great ANSI contrast and many great strengths... It will probably be 2-3 years before we see something revolutionary *and* affordable... key on affordable meaning less than $30K Sure, something significant may come out in a year or two, but how much is it going to cost... so I say it is probably not a bad time to buy a C3X 1080 and just live happily with it for a few years...

I really hope Sony realizes that the poor sales of the VW-200 are not because the price is $15,000.00, it is because the target audience of a $15,000.00 projector typically has larger than a 100 inch screen. The Ruby was not quite bright enough but sold well because it was the only game in town offering 1080p for $10,000.00 2 years ago... Things are much different now. I would have paid $16,000-$18,000 for the VW-200 if it had a 700W xenon bulb and whatever case/heat sink adjustments needed to be made to have acceptable light output.

Sony just takes a Ruby and throws in the latest panels (same as VW-60), better lens, and adds the latest software processing (+ motion flow). Cost effective I'm sure, but I don't want the same limitations of the Ruby... VW-200 :rolleyes: :confused:

With regards to Motion Flow, the guy at the show was explaining how it would make the movie look more "video-like" in some people's eyes. He said some like it, some don't and some like it only with certain movies. That didn't sound all that great to me as I wonder if it indeed introduces new artifacts. Then again, the Spidey 3 Blu-Ray they had running looked unlike anything I had ever seen which is to say: far superior.

Like you say, some people do not prefer this technology. Personally I set my rear projection TV set Motionflow features to off, as the "enhanced" images actually made some movements look artificially smooth. This was a key for me selecting the VW60 (which lacks these features) as I knew that I wouldn't need them.

If you are looking to get the VW200 just so that you can have these features, make sure that you go to a store and check out the technology firsthand. The BRAVIA KDS xxA3000 line has it. If you want to check out the smoothing, make sure that the "motion enhancer" is turned on in the menu.

I really hope Sony realizes that the poor sales of the VW-200
I thought the VW200 wasn't even available yet? How do you know the VW200 will sell poor? Maybe it will, but it might be wise to post it as a guess and not as a fact... :)

Like you say, some people do not prefer this technology. Personally I set my rear projection TV set Motionflow features to off, as the "enhanced" images actually made some movements look artificially smooth. This was a key for me selecting the VW60 (which lacks these features) as I knew that I wouldn't need them.

If you are looking to get the VW200 just so that you can have these features, make sure that you go to a store and check out the technology firsthand. The BRAVIA KDS xxA3000 line has it. If you want to check out the smoothing, make sure that the "motion enhancer" is turned on in the menu.
It is very important to note that as far as I know the BRAVIA KDS line (and all the other Sony displays with Motionflow) only have one half of what the VW200 has. They all calculate interpolated intermediate images. But they all cannot do dark frame insertion, I believe. Someone correct me, if I'm wrong, please. The VW200 can do what the other Motionflow models do. But it adds dark frame insertion on top of that. And dark frame insertion does NOT change the look of things. It just reduces the sample-and-hold effect (motion blur). It doesn't try to make motion more smooth. And the VW200 allows you to switch interpolated intermediate frames and dark frame insertion on/off separately. So even if you don't like the interpolated intermediate frame stuff, you can still benefit from dark frame insertion.

I can say I was planning to get the WV200. After having the WV60 I think I'm good. :)
So far I do not know anyone that is planning to get it. I remember when the Ruby hit. I could not turn around without bumping into someone who either had it or was planning on getting it... Maybe if AVS makes me a good offer I will get one! :D

I thought the VW200 wasn't even available yet? How do you know the VW200 will sell poor? Maybe it will, but it might be wise to post it as a guess and not as a fact... :)
He does go on and on and on :p

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=924611
Check under the section of DILA/SXRD
There seems to be a real Diamond

It is very important to note that as far as I know the BRAVIA KDS line (and all the other Sony displays with Motionflow) only have one half of what the VW200 has. They all calculate interpolated intermediate images. But they all cannot do dark frame insertion, I believe. Someone correct me, if I'm wrong, please. The VW200 can do what the other Motionflow models do. But it adds dark frame insertion on top of that. And dark frame insertion does NOT change the look of things. It just reduces the sample-and-hold effect (motion blur). It doesn't try to make motion more smooth. And the VW200 allows you to switch interpolated intermediate frames and dark frame insertion on/off separately. So even if you don't like the interpolated intermediate frame stuff, you can still benefit from dark frame insertion.

The KDS line does do the dark frame insertion. There are multiple features with the motionflow technology. There is Motion Enhancer, Motion Naturalizer, and then there is a different type of tech called CineMotion that is just a reversal of the 3:2 pulldown for TV broadcast film based material.

The two main MotionFlow features are the Motion Enhancer (this one is the interpolation process) and Motion Naturalizer (this one inserts the dark frames). Personally, I haven't had much use for either of them. I already know that the "Enhancer" feature didn't look quite right to me, but I will keep trying the "Naturalizer" on different media. Maybe I will find something that shows its usefulness.

The KDS line does do the dark frame insertion. There are multiple features with the motionflow technology. There is Motion Enhancer, Motion Naturalizer, and then there is a different type of tech called CineMotion that is just a reversal of the 3:2 pulldown for TV broadcast film based material.

The two main MotionFlow features are the Motion Enhancer (this one is the interpolation process) and Motion Naturalizer (this one inserts the dark frames). Personally, I haven't had much use for either of them. I already know that the "Enhancer" feature didn't look quite right to me, but I will keep trying the "Naturalizer" on different media. Maybe I will find something that shows its usefulness.
Thanks for the correction! I didn't know that.

I've done a search for "Motion Naturalizer" and it seems that most users turn it off cause they see flicker with it being turned on. I've not heard such reports about the VW200 yet, though. Maybe they've improved the technology for the VW200? Or maybe it works better with front projection. Well, we'll have to wait and see...

Electronics pricing has always been frustrating. Sony can make a "rear" projection SXRD unit with similar features to the VW200 and have it cost over 10k less.
I understand need for a markup due to better lenses, better components, and the fact that their line of front projectors retails higher... but over 10k more?
I wonder if the SXRD chips are the same in all of these (KDS line, VW60, VW200). The lamps are different, of course, but not by a factor of multiple thousands of dollars. The lenses are likely very nice too, but.. oh well.

You are indeed correct. We will have to wait and see.