Nice, thanks for the link!

This confirms one of my questions, whether you could access the Guide and Friends list while you are watching an HD-DVD. And you can! Also, it did sound like she said you could do video chatting while watching the movie.

I already have the HD-A1 but I plan on getting the 360 add-on as well.

Microsoft should have posted this video on Marketplace. It would give the drive a big boost!

Where did you get this from? From the link I posted? If so were is it located on the page. i just watched the video. :D

http://www.bungie.net/News/TopStory.aspx?link=bwusept29osix

Quote
"The HD DVD drive is very, very quiet, and since the 360 drive doesn't run while playing HD DVDs, the whole thing is relatively silent (lord knows the 360 can make a noise when everything is running all at once)....
The thing starts up, from disc insertion to movie playing, in less than 10 seconds. This will be interesting news to owners of existing HD DVD and Blu Ray players, some of which had startup times of up to a minute! Ouch. The fast built-in OS of the 360 seems to be the deciding factor here."

Quote
"The HD DVD drive is very, very quiet, and since the 360 drive doesn't run while playing HD DVDs, the whole thing is relatively silent (lord knows the 360 can make a noise when everything is running all at once)....
The thing starts up, from disc insertion to movie playing, in less than 10 seconds. This will be interesting news to owners of existing HD DVD and Blu Ray players, some of which had startup times of up to a minute! Ouch. The fast built-in OS of the 360 seems to be the deciding factor here."

we'll see.

The 360 is very quiet when playing a DVD, but very noisy when using media center extender or just sitting on the dashboard. Hopefully they flick it into 'quiet mode' when using HDDVD, otherwise it would be way too loud for day to day use.

3. If the HD-DVD controls for the 360 are anything like the DVD controls... Yuck.

It comes with a multi-media remote. I have one already, very nice remote and features.

Needless to say, mine is on order !

:o

The player controls are already in my harmony. What's not to like. I don't remember any sites saying the drive OEM manufacturer for the add-on if it was toshiba or thompson, etc.. Sounds like a speedy lttle unit.

we'll see.

The 360 is very quiet when playing a DVD, but very noisy when using media center extender or just sitting on the dashboard. Hopefully they flick it into 'quiet mode' when using HDDVD, otherwise it would be way too loud for day to day use.

Your 360 is loud when it's just on the dashboard? That's odd, mine is completely quiet on the dashboard. The only time it really makes any noise is when I'm playing a game.

Your 360 is loud when it's just on the dashboard? That's odd, mine is completely quiet on the dashboard. The only time it really makes any noise is when I'm playing a game.

Correct, my 360 only emits excessive noise when playing a 360 game. DVD's and original Xbox games are very quiet. Only time i hear the fans when not actively using it is if I get close to the console. Should not be a problem when playing HD-DVD's.

I don't remember any sites saying the drive OEM manufacturer for the add-on if it was toshiba or thompson, etc.. Sounds like a speedy lttle unit.

TSST. Only NEC and TSST are making HD DVD drives, IIRC.

I REALLY hope the HD-DVD drive gets release before the PS3. EB/GS are reporting the 30th of November but I seriously hope that is a placeholder date.

Im sure MS would love to have the 1080p dash update and the HD-DVD drive out before the PS3 hits stores. I was thinking about getting a PS3 but if the HD-DVD drive is out before the PS3 I will seriously consider skipping the PS3 altogether until next year.

I REALLY hope the HD-DVD drive gets release before the PS3. EB/GS are reporting the 30th of November but I seriously hope that is a placeholder date.

Im sure MS would love to have the 1080p dash update and the HD-DVD drive out before the PS3 hits stores. I was thinking about getting a PS3 but if the HD-DVD drive is out before the PS3 I will seriously consider skipping the PS3 altogether until next year.

If for PR bragging rights..Have there been any announced games that will be rendering in 1080p? If so, will they be released before the PS3?

TSST. Only NEC and TSST are making HD DVD drives, IIRC.
Lite-On is also manufacturing HD-DVD drives. Won't be available until 1Q 2007.

Lite-On is also manufacturing HD-DVD drives. Won't be available until 1Q 2007.

Right. Infact the rumor was that there will be multiple OEMs making the drive for the 360 add-on.

According to this article at IGN, MS could release an HDMI cable for the 360:



September 27, 2006 - Updated 9/28

Microsoft just got back to us to clarify the Xbox 360's ability to transmit a digital signal. In short, it can, which means that Microsoft could conceivably release an HDMI cable for the Xbox 360. This is good news, and relieves a great deal of our concern over the Xbox 360's ability to effectively work with 1080p. Microsoft's full response is marked in the Q & A portion of this feature.

With this new information in mind, consider us relatively mollified. A future HDMI cable for the 360 will resolve the problems we outline in our discussion of 1080p compatibility. Let's hope Microsoft decides the market demands it sooner rather than later."


I'd post a link, but I'm restricted. It's at IGN under Gear then check latest news.

link: http://gear.ign.com/articles/735/735860p1.html

If for PR bragging rights..Have there been any announced games that will be rendering in 1080p? If so, will they be released before the PS3?


Why is it that in every thread I see you pop us a person always casting doubt on MS and the 360. You claim to own one and just want the best of what you can get, however you continually put your true Sony Fanboyism on display every chance you get. You don't do a very good job of disquising your true intentions.The least you could do is come out of the closet and be proud of your PS fanboyism.Your not fooling anyone!!

Why is it that in every thread I see you pop us a person always casting doubt on MS and the 360. You claim to own one and just want the best of what you can get, however you continually put your true Sony Fanboyism on display every chance you get. You don't do a very good job of disquising your true intentions.The least you could do is come out of the closet and be proud of your PS fanboyism.Your not fooling anyone!!

Maybe you should read the post I was responding to and put it into context before getting upset :)

If for PR bragging rights..Have there been any announced games that will be rendering in 1080p? If so, will they be released before the PS3?

The impression I get is that MS RIGHT NOW wants to get 1080p out there for the HD-DVD player. As for games, who knows.

Personally, I'd rather get smooth frame rates at 720p then waste extra CPU on 1080p (not to mention my display can't do 1080p, but that's neither here nor there). But, I realize that may not be the prevalent AVS view. :)

The impression I get is that MS RIGHT NOW wants to get 1080p out there for the HD-DVD player. As for games, who knows.

Personally, I'd rather get smooth frame rates at 720p then waste extra CPU on 1080p (not to mention my display can't do 1080p, but that's neither here nor there). But, I realize that may not be the prevalent AVS view. :)

Well 1080p is there, just not on all types of connections that people want like HDMI. Main loss is lossless audio, but for $200 it's still sounds like very good deal for somebody who already has a 360 or wants to buy a 360 for gaming.

I agree on the frame rates. I'd rather have 720p at 60fps than 1080p at 30fps, or even 480p at 60fps versus 720p at 30fps. Of course Dev's for the most part aren't taking that approach. Of course some games will give us 1080p 60fps and some 720p sub 30fps.

Maybe you should read the post I was responding to and put it into context before getting upset :)


Not upset......I don't get upset over AV things as there are to many other things one can possibly get upset over. I never have a problem with people who prefer one thing over another etc.....It's just easier for most people to understand when they know what perspective they are speaking from. So if Sony is your thing and you think that they provide the ultimate experience for your $$$, then preach it from the rooftop and support them every way you can. Just don't try and present yourself as a neutral party who is simply weighing the pros and cons of the system.

Why is it that in every thread I see you pop us a person always casting doubt on MS and the 360. You claim to own one and just want the best of what you can get, however you continually put your true Sony Fanboyism on display every chance you get. You don't do a very good job of disquising your true intentions.The least you could do is come out of the closet and be proud of your PS fanboyism.Your not fooling anyone!!


Have you forgotten?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7203845&&#post7203845

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7483457&&#post7483457

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7307465&&#post7307465

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7258579&&#post7258579

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7258546&&#post7258546

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7258410&&#post7258410

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7257147&&#post7257147

Have you forgotten?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7203845&&#post7203845

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7483457&&#post7483457

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7307465&&#post7307465

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7258579&&#post7258579

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7258546&&#post7258546

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7258410&&#post7258410

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7257147&&#post7257147

Thanks, now I understand the bitterness. I hope he didn't stick his neck out like that MS executive in regards to no 1080p PS3 games :eek:

Wow...That is amazing...Why don't you look at the date of those posts and see where The PS# estimates were at......Go back and see how much has changed if you are trying to say my comments were completely off base. The fact of the matter is that they are 99% accurate.....What wasn't even originally planned by Sony was to short Japan and give the US the majority of the greatly reduced consoles they will have available in 2006. I happen to know that the US won't in fact see 400,000 units on launch. That is PR basically trying to keep the all parties happy. From what I understand US will probably get between 125,000-200,00 units. Again at the time of the posts that wasn't even in the plans as Sony plans were to go Japan in November...however they doid what they had to do to keep the wolves at bay....we will see what happens with Japan.........But again, please go back and rtead my posts and identify quotes from me where information was totally inaccurate......











[QUOTE=tsb]Have you forgotten?






http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7203845&&#post7203845

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7483457&&#post7483457

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7307465&&#post7307465

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7258579&&#post7258579

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7258546&&#post7258546

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7258410&&#post7258410

[url]http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?

I really hate having to write this as my first post on the AVSforum - but could you possibly take you little "fanboy"-discussion somewhere else? It really reminds me of the discussions some of my students have at school - and they're teenagers :o

We are all entitled to having a personal opinion - never the less, this thread is about the forthcoming HD-DVD drive coming out for the Xbox 360 - as neighter the HD-DVD drive nor the PS3 has been released yet a comparison between the two seems like a waste of time to me.

I have been thinking about buying the 360 now for a while and was planning on buying it as soon as Halo 3 comes out. With the HD-DVD drive coming out soon(at least in the US, France, Germany and the UK) I am strongly considering buying the 360 when the HD-DVD drive becomes available in Scandinavia; it's a cheap way of having HD "now" - with the uncertainty surrounding the future of the formats I believe buying an inexpensive add-on could prove to be a wise decision.

Has anybody seen a comparison between the picture quality of the 360 and that of the Toshiba players yet? I am a bit worried about the picture quality as the quality of SD-material is somewhat disappointing - even with the spring update. The 360 has the capacity to do pretty well - the question is if microsoft is putting enough efford into making the best possible software or if they are only releasing the HD-DVD drive to annoy Sony.

Has anybody seen a comparison between the picture quality of the 360 and that of the Toshiba players yet? I am a bit worried about the picture quality as the quality of SD-material is somewhat disappointing - even with the spring update. The 360 has the capacity to do pretty well - the question is if microsoft is putting enough efford into making the best possible software or if they are only releasing the HD-DVD drive to annoy Sony.

I seem to recall Amir mentioning in that now-locked Insiders thread that the 360's output rivalled the Tosh. Now, he's a MS employee, so take it for what it's worth. :p

In all honesty, I wouldn't wait for Halo 3. I'm sure it will be a decent-enough game, but I've always felt that much better games were overlooked on the system in favor of those overrated shooters. Oblivion could very well be the best console game ever created. Dead Rising, if you love zombie flicks and wish you could have been in the mall in Dawn of the Dead, is a MUST BUY. GRAW, Battlefield 2, and Call of Duty 2 are all excellent shooters (in the case of Battlefield, online-only). Fight Night really sets the bar graphically for next-gen titles.

The best part? Nearly all these games (all but Oblivion) have free demos over XBox Live.

The 360 really should be capable of delivering a very fine picture in deed! If the power of the 360 is put to good use, the system should be "up there" with the Toshiba players - at least in theory. I don't know who developed the software for playback of HD-DVD. I've been browsing the internet, and as far as I understand, Microsoft will be using their own codec for VC-1 encoded material, a codec from ATI for H. 264 and the same Intervideo codec they use for standard DVD-playback for MPEG-2 encoded material.

I don't know if the quality limitations are in the codecs or elsewhere in the 360. The Intervideo software does its job - that's it, basically. Had the software and the codec been tailored to the 360 we should see an overall improvement in picture quality. If Microsoft will be using the same software for some of the HD-DVDs as they are using for SD-playback, the future really doesn't look too bright. To my knowledge there have not been any releases using the MPEG-2 codec yet - and I sure hope there never will be. The Xbox 360 should do fairly well with discs using the VC-1 codec(after all, they developed it!) and ought to do faily well with H.264 since ATI(who provide the codec) should be able to put the power of the Xbox 360 to good use.

Does anybody in here know what the limiting factors could be? I know that Microsoft are not as focused on delivering the best possible quality as say Denon or other HT-dedicated companies. However, Microsoft should realize that they could easily become one of the biggest players in HT if they just play their cards right.

A bit off-topic: I know there are several fine games out for the system already - but I'm not much of a gamer. I love Halo because of the universe itself - same reason why I loved Fable. Halo 1+2, Fable and Amped are actually the only games that could keep my attention on the old Xbox - my husbond has spent lots of time playing pretty much every driving game out for the system though.

If you want more independent data on the quality of HD DVD playback on the 360, you may want to ask the people who came to our Seattle AVS Forum insider meet (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=731080). We had an issue with getting the Toshiba/Pioneer Elite/prototype Runco 1080p projector to using the same color space so wound up using the 360 for most of the movies we played back. I think everyone was very impressed with the picture quality, coming out of the 360 at 1080p.

I hope to also bring a 360 to our future meetings (with the one coming up in NY this coming week) so that you can judge for youself.

Given the flexible software deocoding architecture in the 360, we can fine tune its performane over time (if needed).

If for PR bragging rights..Have there been any announced games that will be rendering in 1080p? If so, will they be released before the PS3?

I don't think it matters. Unless you have planned well ahead of time, or are extremely lucky, most people who want a PS3 will not be able to get one until next year.

I do like the idea of the 360 being presented to an HT-audience as well - the problem is that the brilliant idea is somewhat unlikely to be adopted here in Europe. I sure hope that the people at Microsoft decide to show off the new unit all over Europe at some point - but I'm not getting my hopes up just yet. The scandinavian countries have some of the strongest economies in the world, yet(because of the relatively small populations) the countries tend to be overlooked. The launch of the HD-DVD unit is the latest example; Germany, France and the UK will be getting the unit in time for Christmas - the Scandinavian launch is likely to be some time around Easter if things work out the way they usually do.

Perhaps Amir could convince someone over at Microsoft here in Scandinavia to do a tour as well; the buzz-factor and word-of-mouth are inexpensive ways of "pushing" new technology to early adapters.

No matter when the system launches, I do hope that Microsoft will be listening to the end-users - the reason why OPPO have been successful is not only because of their inexpensive yet fine-performing players but also because they actually listen to their customers; Toshiba have been praised for doing the same thing - and then some.

Perhaps Amir could convince someone over at Microsoft here in Scandinavia to do a tour as well; the buzz-factor and word-of-mouth are inexpensive ways of "pushing" new technology to early adapters.
I won't be able to get the Xbox division to do such a tour if they are not selling the box in those regions. However, I am making a personal tour in US, meeting HD DVD enthusiasts (whether they own a player or not). I am open and prepared to do the same in a few locations in Europe. But since these events are informal, I would need help from the people who want to attend. Namely, we would need a high-end fascility to host us and some way of making sure enough people would want to come.

No matter when the system launches, I do hope that Microsoft will be listening to the end-users - the reason why OPPO have been successful is not only because of their inexpensive yet fine-performing players but also because they actually listen to their customers; Toshiba have been praised for doing the same thing - and then some.
We do listen. That is one of the main reasons I am hear. There are not that many VPs from big companies here participating. The feedback from the forum members has indeed shaped our strategies and products already.

I won't be able to get the Xbox division to do such a tour if they are not selling the box in those regions. However, I am making a personal tour in US, meeting HD DVD enthusiasts (whether they own a player or not).

Where in the US are you planning on going? I'm in the DC area, and I'm very much considering picking up the HD-DVD addon. I'd like to see it in action. Also, the package includes the media remote. Is this the full size one that's available now, or will it be the shorty remote that was available at launch included in some of the 360s?

Deezul

Where in the US are you planning on going? I'm in the DC area, and I'm very much considering picking up the HD-DVD addon. I'd like to see it in action.
DC is on the list of places we are going to visit eventually but I am not sure we will be there before the product actually comes out. Our next visit right now is in NY area this coming Wednsday. After that, I can't schedule more because of Jury Duty.

Here is one of the thread. Be sure to vote as it determines which cities we give priority to: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=719295

If i could only make the local EB games take preorders for the thing.Im already buying a title a week for this.Has their been a firm release date?

Where in the US are you planning on going? I'm in the DC area, and I'm very much considering picking up the HD-DVD addon. I'd like to see it in action. Also, the package includes the media remote. Is this the full size one that's available now, or will it be the shorty remote that was available at launch included in some of the 360s?

Deezul

It's the full size remote that currently retails for $30. Combined with Kong, a ridiculously good deal. I've been ordering HD-DVDs online like a madman, and it's over a month and a half before I even get my player!

If i could only make the local EB games take preorders for the thing.Im already buying a title a week for this.Has their been a firm release date?

you can pre-order online already, not sure if anyone's visited their site lately, http://www.ebgames.com/product.asp?product%5Fid=802558

will you be able to pre-order with bestbuy.com or circuitcity.com like with when the xbox 360 originally came out.

I did that for my xbox 360 and it came the first day.

would like to do it the same for the hd-dvd player

will you be able to pre-order with bestbuy.com or circuitcity.com like with when the xbox 360 originally came out.

I did that for my xbox 360 and it came the first day.

would like to do it the same for the hd-dvd player

Not sure where you were located that you pre-ordered for them, but I had to wait 12 hours outside a Best Buy because they said the DID NOT do preorders, and with game systems they never do because they don't know the numbers in most cases until a few weeks beforehand. Circuit City I believe also didn't preorder, but I may be wrong.

I don't think that the HD-DVD drives will sell out like the systems. I'm not worried about NOT getting one before the end of this year.

Deezul

Why is this thing an add-on? Why not just have a second release of the Xbox 360?

It seems like Apples can release a new iPod every few months and sell a bunch of them. The add-ons for consoles have rarely done well.

Why is this thing an add-on? Why not just have a second release of the Xbox 360?

It seems like Apples can release a new iPod every few months and sell a bunch of them. The add-ons for consoles have rarely done well.


Because then existing Xbox360 owners miss out on the HD DVD action. This way, anyone who wants the cheap upgrade can have it.

I did the pre-order for the xbox360 on line

I went into my local store (EBGames) and they still have no sku or pre-order info ! =-(

But I know the manager, so I hope he keeps me in the loop ! Iwant one ! ! ! !

BTW if anybody missed the most recent AVS Forum podcast there was an email from a user about seeing the hd-dvd in action and according to the user load times were 20 seconds and it looked as good as the toshiba hd-dvd in the users estimation.

We still wont know for sure until it actually hits retail but it should be more powerful inside the 360 as the toshiba's so the pq should be pretty close to the same and the load times even at 20 secs are the fastest of the "next gen" players out there. If they manage to get it to 10 secs like stated earlier I think this could be the killer player for many people. I know Im getting one.

Why is this thing an add-on? Why not just have a second release of the Xbox 360?

It seems like Apples can release a new iPod every few months and sell a bunch of them. The add-ons for consoles have rarely done well.

Too expensive. No big demand (I'd expect the demand to be less than 1M).

Comparison with ipod is an apples to oranges comparison ;)

I'd expect a internal hd dvd 360 in a couple of years, if hd dvd does well.

I think this add on will be a boon for those of us who have earlier HD TVs...My Mitsubishi 55511 has only component HD inputs...and is now used in my HT/GR for my sons X-Box 360 and their DT H2o......Being able to have a new upscaling HD-DVD player compatible with this display..is great...and I applaud Microsoft for seeing the need for component outs on it....While many folks here lament the fact of their choice to do component & VGA 1080p first...there are literally hundreds of thousands of these earlier sets still in use thru out the world...and finding a decent DVD player capable of upscaling on them is like finding hens teeth...and now getting a HD-DVD player all in one.... :D Those of us who bought these sets have been forced to spend millions of dollars to upgrade to DVI/HDMI to enjoy the latest innovations and better PQ....For those of you who don't understand why Microsoft would do component first on the add on....here's how I see it...I can't think of a better way to slam dunk Blue Ray and Sony at the same time by doing this...To make your product viable to the millions without having to fork out thousands on a new TV .....as the beer commercial guys say........" Brilliant "........

on my samsung dlp, vga blows component out of the water for games and dvd.


My Samsung DLP with VGA looked like poop. Everything didn't 'pop' in color the same way component did. DVDs looked okay, but games were lacking.

Can you share with me how you set yours up? I tried to search on AVS for some tips, but couldn't find anything helpful. I returned the cable and got a vision, but if there's something I didn't do right, I might be willing to try again. Thanks!

Sorry if this has been posted before. But I just saw this look at the HD DVD option for 360: http://krisabel.ctv.ca/blog/_archives/2006/10/3/2382992.html

Sorry if this has been posted before. But I just saw this look at the HD DVD option for 360: http://krisabel.ctv.ca/blog/_archives/2006/10/3/2382992.html


Thanks for the link

While every HD-DVD and Blu-Ray player I’ve tested and seen suffers from a long boot-up time followed by an even longer loading time for the movies (4 – 6 min. approx), ...

..You can actually unpack the player from its box, connect it to the video game system, turn it on, pop in a disc, and start watching the movie in less time than it takes to just load a movie on either of the current HD-DVD or Blu-Ray players available.

Is this true for the Toshiba and Samsung? 4-6 minutes is a very long time.

edit: Should have read the rest..?

Microsoft’s player is also superior in price. While standard HD-DVD players start at $700 and Blu-Ray players go for $1,300, Microsoft’s add-on player will sell for $200.


Where does this guy get his info from :confused:

Good review on the HD-DVD add-on if it's all true (I don't see why it wouldn't be), but it's hard for me to take him seriously.

No, he is exaggerating on the start up time on the stand-alone players. But HD DVD on 360 is faster as it uses a newer generation drive (as does the new Toshiba players to come out soon).

No, he is exaggerating on the start up time on the stand-alone players. But HD DVD on 360 is faster as it uses a newer generation drive (as does the new Toshiba players to come out soon).

Well I'm happy to hear the HD-DVD add-on is fast. It's just a bit misleading to exaggerate the loading times of the other two players as well as exaggerating the prices.

No, he is exaggerating on the start up time on the stand-alone players. But HD DVD on 360 is faster as it uses a newer generation drive (as does the new Toshiba players to come out soon).

Thanks for the good work. This is mine. There should be no supply shortage for the add-on, I suppose? :)

Thanks for the good work. This is mine. There should be no supply shortage for the add-on, I suppose? :)
Like any hardware product, we make forecasts and build to them. But since this is new category product, our guess could be right on the money or not. But if there is a storm of demand, then it is good for the format anyway :).

I have been jumping around through all of the threads and am still not sure what they bottom line is here- what should I expect from the HD-DVD add-on for the 360 over component? Has it been confirmed that there is no HDMI? I initially heard that MS is releasing a fall update that will allow 1080p over component. Is this even possible? Has anyone seen a demo on the 360 HD-DVD player? Does it really look better?

1080p over component.

1080p is only allowed via VGA by AACS. 1080i60 for component.
But for movie, 1080i60 and 1080p60 actually transfer the same 1080p24 information. No difference/loss here.
Also, not many display accept 1080p60 over component.

I have been jumping around through all of the threads and am still not sure what they bottom line is here- what should I expect from the HD-DVD add-on for the 360 over component? Has it been confirmed that there is no HDMI? I initially heard that MS is releasing a fall update that will allow 1080p over component. Is this even possible?

No HDMI and crippled audio for the add-on according to Amir. Also 1080p over VGA for HD-DVD movies. 1080i max over component for HD-DVD movies. Gaming can be upscaled to 1080p over component or VGA.

Originally Posted by amirm
Since there is no HDMI on the 360, the only option you have here is to buy the Toshiba player. We do decode TrueHD per my earlier post but we can't get it out in a lossless manner.

1080p is only allowed via VGA by AACS. 1080i60 for component.
But for movie, 1080i60 and 1080p60 actually transfer the same 1080p24 information. No difference/loss here.
Also, not many display accept 1080p60 over component.

Actually, I think you can transfer 1080p over component for movies. I am pretty sure it was already posted on here by Microsoft that the standard allows companies to enforce it or not enforce it and according to Microsoft, no studio has yet to enforce this limitation.


Here is the post I was referring to, so does this mean we can do 1080p over component for now?:

Right now there is a big question of HDMI connectivity -- an alternative to component connections it's an all-digital audio/video interface capable of transmitting uncompressed streams -- Microsoft said they have nothing to announce, but are considering the possibility.

We pressed this issue and asked if Microsoft is concerned about the fact that the Image Constraint Toke (ICT) component of HDCP/AACS copy-protection won't work over component video connections, which could make the X360 HD-DVD drive useless sometime in the future if the copy-protection scheme is fully implemented in HD-DVDs.

Microsoft replied via email:

"The image constraint token feature of AACS is an optional flag for the [motion picture] studios and several have publicly stated they have no plans to invoke [the copy-protection flags]. Therefore, the copy protection scheme is fully implemented in both HD DVD and Blu-ray today.

"We [Microsoft Corporation] do not see the absence of HDMI/HDCP as an issue over the lifetime of this generation of [the X360] console. HDMI/HDCP is still a very new interface and until it is supported broadly across the CE and PC industries and by consumers on a wide enough scale to be considered a standard, we don't expect anyone to impede content flow over non-HDMI devices (re: invoke the ICT)."

One Microsoft rep told us that "Let us [Microsoft] worry about that. The consumer shouldn't have to worry about that!"

If you want more independent data on the quality of HD DVD playback on the 360, you may want to ask the people who came to our Seattle AVS Forum insider meet (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=731080). We had an issue with getting the Toshiba/Pioneer Elite/prototype Runco 1080p projector to using the same color space so wound up using the 360 for most of the movies we played back. I think everyone was very impressed with the picture quality, coming out of the 360 at 1080p.

I hope to also bring a 360 to our future meetings (with the one coming up in NY this coming week) so that you can judge for youself.

Given the flexible software deocoding architecture in the 360, we can fine tune its performane over time (if needed).


I was there. Xbox PQ was great, at no time did I wish the Tosh were playing a particular clip.

Amir, do you know if the add-on it's gonna be available on Mexico this year?

Actually, I think you can transfer 1080p over component for movies. I am pretty sure it was already posted on here by Microsoft that the standard allows companies to enforce it or not enforce it and according to Microsoft, no studio has yet to enforce this limitation.


Here is the post I was referring to, so does this mean we can do 1080p over component for now?:

Right now there is a big question of HDMI connectivity -- an alternative to component connections it's an all-digital audio/video interface capable of transmitting uncompressed streams -- Microsoft said they have nothing to announce, but are considering the possibility.

We pressed this issue and asked if Microsoft is concerned about the fact that the Image Constraint Toke (ICT) component of HDCP/AACS copy-protection won't work over component video connections, which could make the X360 HD-DVD drive useless sometime in the future if the copy-protection scheme is fully implemented in HD-DVDs.

Microsoft replied via email:

"The image constraint token feature of AACS is an optional flag for the [motion picture] studios and several have publicly stated they have no plans to invoke [the copy-protection flags]. Therefore, the copy protection scheme is fully implemented in both HD DVD and Blu-ray today.

"We [Microsoft Corporation] do not see the absence of HDMI/HDCP as an issue over the lifetime of this generation of [the X360] console. HDMI/HDCP is still a very new interface and until it is supported broadly across the CE and PC industries and by consumers on a wide enough scale to be considered a standard, we don't expect anyone to impede content flow over non-HDMI devices (re: invoke the ICT)."

One Microsoft rep told us that "Let us [Microsoft] worry about that. The consumer shouldn't have to worry about that!"

720p/1080i sounds a hell of a lot better than 480p upscaling. Of course, I am no AV buff, but what about "crippled audio" for those who are using optical audio already?

720p/1080i sounds a hell of a lot better than 480p upscaling. Of course, I am no AV buff, but what about "crippled audio" for those who are using optical audio already?

It definitely is a lot better. Many people are enjoying HD-DVD/blu-ray on 720p sets, still quite an improvement over DVD's. :)

Crippled audio is referring to this (due to no HDMI or analog outputs) as optical doesn't have the bandwidth needed:

Originally Posted by amirm
Since there is no HDMI on the 360, the only option you have here is to buy the Toshiba player. We do decode TrueHD per my earlier post but we can't get it out in a lossless manner.

Actually, I think you can transfer 1080p over component


AACS only allows 1080i60 for component output given no ICT and DOT. Both VGA and component are analog output. However, VGA is defined as approved computer output by AACS, thus 1080p60 is allowed. Sounds like a loophole. :)

but what about "crippled audio" for those who are using optical audio already?

Crippled is a bit misleading since over digital optical users will get audio that is superior to standard dvd along with superior video over component.

I think the intended point is that no one will get the full capability of the audio tracks. It should be better sound quality but downrezzed from it fullest capability.

It would be nice for MS to provide 1.5 DTS on a future software update.

Thanks for the link



Is this true for the Toshiba and Samsung? 4-6 minutes is a very long time.

edit: Should have read the rest..?




Where does this guy get his info from :confused:

Good review on the HD-DVD add-on if it's all true (I don't see why it wouldn't be), but it's hard for me to take him seriously.
Toshiba startup times:
From cold start (power on) to first video: 105s (About as long as a normal Advert break in network TV)
Warm start (Player already on, just insert disc) to first video: 76s (still a bloody long time)

20 seconds is a substantially shorter time, and perceptually, is almost instantaneous. (since it's going to take you 15 seconds or so to get back to your seat and get comfy. Essentially, when you're ready to watch, the addon will have started playback.) With the Toshiba, you still have at least a minute to wait after settling down, which perceptually, is even longer, because you're not doing anything else except watching the second hand tick... t i c k . . . t i c k . . .

My DVD player at home takes 10-15 seconds to start up and I really don't notice it. The addon will be similar, it's startup time is low enough that it won't be an issue.

Toshiba startup times:
From cold start (power on) to first video: 105s (About as long as a normal Advert break in network TV)
Warm start (Player already on, just insert disc) to first video: 76s (still a bloody long time)

20 seconds is a substantially shorter time, and perceptually, is almost instantaneous. (since it's going to take you 15 seconds or so to get back to your seat and get comfy. Essentially, when you're ready to watch, the addon will have started playback.) With the Toshiba, you still have at least a minute to wait after settling down, which perceptually, is even longer, because you're not doing anything else except watching the second hand tick... t i c k . . . t i c k . . .

My DVD player at home takes 10-15 seconds to start up and I really don't notice it. The addon will be similar, it's startup time is low enough that it won't be an issue.

Gotcha, thanks :)

Crippled is a bit misleading since over digital optical users will get audio that is superior to standard dvd along with superior video over component.

I think the intended point is that no one will get the full capability of the audio tracks. It should be better sound quality but downrezzed from it fullest capability.

It would be nice for MS to provide 1.5 DTS on a future software update.

Being downrezzed/impaired is what does make it crippled. It certainly isn't misleading to call it for what it is.

How the audio sounds in comparison to DVD has nothing to do with the fact that it can't be output as intended on the HD-DVD add-on. My car could be crippled with 2 flat tires and still go faster than a bike, making it a superior method for traveling.

I'm looking at getting a 360 as soon as the HDDVD drive comes out. With all this 1080p talk I'm thinking that my brand new Pioneer 5071 (720p) isn't going to be worth squat as soon as the HDDVD 360 and the PS3 come out!

Is this true?

Should I return the TV?

Being downrezzed/impaired is what does make it crippled. It certainly isn't misleading to call it for what it is.

How the audio sounds in comparison to DVD has nothing to do with the fact that it can't be output as intended on the HD-DVD add-on. My car could be crippled with 2 flat tires and still go faster than a bike, making it a superior method for traveling.

Semantically I'm just sure about any word could be justfied when anything less than the maximum benefit is discussed. One could say the audio is butchered for instance if they choose to frame it that way.

I simply say it's a bit misleading for most users since the word 'crippled' doesn't leave one with the impression that something may be an improvement over their current audio.

In point of fact many users won't have either the connections or audio equipment to get the most out of some of the hd audio encodes on these movies and in many cases need entire new receivers to max out the benefit or be left with a 'crippled' experience. So in fact anything less than the full audio setup might be said to be 'crippled' but again I think it doesn't accurately convey the reality of an improving audio or video experience.

At any rate I'm sure you conveyed what you meant to in using your terminology, as did I in mine ;)

Being downrezzed/impaired is what does make it crippled. It certainly isn't misleading to call it for what it is.

How the audio sounds in comparison to DVD has nothing to do with the fact that it can't be output as intended on the HD-DVD add-on. My car could be crippled with 2 flat tires and still go faster than a bike, making it a superior method for traveling.


I have a $350 DVD player in my HT, it looks better than my daughters $30 DVD player in her room. Sure it does not have component out, digital out nor does it upscale the signal. But it works. Its not "crippled", its a budjet player. I cannot really expect it to compare to a higher end model in features.


The 360 HD DVD player will play movies in 1080P for me, it will not of course allow me to sue the HD audio features of HD DVD, but then again I am saving quite a bit of money and I am gaining portability as well. Oh and a free movie.

Could I buy a more full featured player? Of course I could. But that hardly makes the 360 HD DVD player crippled.

Being downrezzed/impaired is what does make it crippled. It certainly isn't misleading to call it for what it is.

How the audio sounds in comparison to DVD has nothing to do with the fact that it can't be output as intended on the HD-DVD add-on. My car could be crippled with 2 flat tires and still go faster than a bike, making it a superior method for traveling.

I guess we are all crippled since we are not olympic athletes ?

Semantically I'm just sure about any word could be justfied when anything less than the maximum benefit is discussed. One could say the audio is butchered for instance if they choose to frame it that way.

I simply say it's a bit misleading for most users since the word 'crippled' doesn't leave one with the impression that something may be an improvement over their current audio.

In point of fact many users won't have either the connections or audio equipment to get the most out of some of the hd audio encodes on these movies and in many cases need entire new receivers to max out the benefit or be left with a 'crippled' experience. So in fact anything less than the full audio setup might be said to be 'crippled' but again I think it doesn't accurately convey the reality of an improving audio or video experience.

At any rate I'm sure you conveyed what you meant to in using your terminology, as did I in mine ;)

Fair enough. I do agree it still would be an improvement :)

Here's an interview on the HD-DVD addon :)

http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=13888&type=wmv&pl=game

My hopes for the quality of the HD-DVD add-on just increased as I just tested my XBOX 360 PQ with Avia DVD test resolutions against my Sony progresive scan DVD player which I previously thought was much better but I was proven wrong. The resolution screens were much sharper with the DVD player in the 360. Both the 360 and the Sony were feeding my Panasonic AE900 projector via component through my Onkyo TX-SR603x and then a 25" Component cable. I also tested the 360 with the VGA cable to my projector but PQ was only slightly increased. The detail/sharpness going from the Sony to the 360 via component was much more noticable than going from the 360 at 480p via component to the 360 via VGA at 720p. I may start using my 360 as a DVD player more often and definately plan on getting the HD-DVD add on when it's out (maybe not at launch). If I calibrate my panny ae900 with Avia on my 360, I am sure I could get it to match the color and contrast of the Sony as well. Leaves me wondering how poor the PQ will be in the PS3.

Here's an interview on the HD-DVD addon :)

http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=13888&type=wmv&pl=game
Oh my :eek: . Thank you for this link. Anyone who has a 360 and wants the best of HD on their display should by this add-on. $200 going into the savings on next payday. I've got to have this. AAAAAAHHHHHHHHH, I'm going nuts. November come on already!

This thing looks amazing. Good enough for 200.00!

Everyone go and watch this, NOW

My hopes for the quality of the HD-DVD add-on just increased as I just tested my XBOX 360 PQ with Avia DVD test resolutions against my Sony progresive scan DVD player which I previously thought was much better but I was proven wrong. The resolution screens were much sharper with the DVD player in the 360. Both the 360 and the Sony were feeding my Panasonic AE900 projector via component through my Onkyo TX-SR603x and then a 25" Component cable.
The 360 can only do so much. Trash in trash out. Now with the HD-dvd add-on PQ will be way, way better. Since the HD-DVD disc are native 1080p, unlike the 480p DVD's. Watch the video above and you'll see.

My hopes for the quality of the HD-DVD add-on just increased as I just tested my XBOX 360 PQ with Avia DVD test resolutions against my Sony progresive scan DVD player which I previously thought was much better but I was proven wrong. The resolution screens were much sharper with the DVD player in the 360. Both the 360 and the Sony were feeding my Panasonic AE900 projector via component through my Onkyo TX-SR603x and then a 25" Component cable.

I also tested the 360 with the VGA cable to my projector but PQ was only slightly increased. The detail/sharpness going from the Sony to the 360 via component was much more noticable than going from the 360 at 480p via component to the 360 via VGA at 720p.

I may start using my 360 as a DVD player more often and definately plan on getting the HD-DVD add on when it's out (maybe not at launch). If I calibrate my panny ae900 with Avia on my 360, I am sure I could get it to match the color and contrast of the Sony as well. Leaves me wondering how poor the PQ will be in the PS3.

Good job actually testing the PQ for yourself. The notion that game consoles must be poor DVD players is almost 'mythical' around here.

If anyone cares, here is the first 360 HD-DVD comercial:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8S5CZpNd904

This may have been asked many many times, but what would happen if this add-on drive, being usb, was connected to a PC, any chance of it detecting it? Or could the drive be removed from the external case and put in a computer, like how I think many have done with the NEC drives from HD-A1 players?

This may have been asked many many times, but what would happen if this add-on drive, being usb, was connected to a PC, any chance of it detecting it? Or could the drive be removed from the external case and put in a computer, like how I think many have done with the NEC drives from HD-A1 players?

well the software isnt there to support it, and amir has said they havent tested it on a PC (sounds suspicious to me) but that their aim to to put all their weight behind getting HD-DVD on the 360.

Basically, we wont know for sure what will happen until its released and someone plugs it in there pc.

Or could the drive be removed from the external case and put in a computer, like how I think many have done with the NEC drives from HD-A1 players?

I doubt the interface will be IDE ...

I doubt the interface will be IDE ...

Nothing a soldering iron and a custom connector can't fix.

I doubt the interface will be IDE ...
It's gotta be either IDE or SATA. I doubt they'd use a non-standard interface.

Here's an interview on the HD-DVD addon :)

http://www.gametrailers.com/player.php?id=13888&type=wmv&pl=game
Great interview, just wish they didn't have that music playing in the background.

So it looks like no upscaling regular dvds over component. Bummer (sort of expected though).

Great interview, just wish they didn't have that music playing in the background.

So it looks like no upscaling regular dvds over component. Bummer (sort of expected though).
Not just "expected", required by the DVD licensing agreements.

Of course, if like me, your TV is 480p, this does not pose much of a hassle :-) (I'm waiting for SED before upgrading)

I'm not a gamer, not a 360 guy at all, but I had a chance to play my own discs today on a setup. Excepting the fact that the MS guy almost blew the demo by locking the player into some mode that the TV wouldn't display, after a bit of cajolling he got the player up and working.

After the XBOX had booted up, I counted 35 seconds from disc insertion before seeing a screen - about the same, really, as a booted up A1. PQ on the uncalibrated set was hard to judge, but it certainly looked as decent as it did on the standalone player.

I threw in Batman, and all the goodies worked - TrueHD downconversion to TV audio, a/b buttons for zoom/bookmarking, iHD, etc. If anything, the responsiveness of the menu was better on the xbox than on my A1.

As the box is simply USB into the 360, I still can't see any formal limitation to adding HDMI at a later date (ie., the player is just a drive, the 360 box itself's doing all the hard stuff, and adding HDMI to that shouldn't be so hard, should it?)

my 2 cent, at any rate...

As the box is simply USB into the 360, I still can't see any formal limitation to adding HDMI at a later date (ie., the player is just a drive, the 360 box itself's doing all the hard stuff, and adding HDMI to that shouldn't be so hard, should it?)

my 2 cent, at any rate...

Either J Allard or Peter Moore said that the 360 was expandable enough to add HDMI when the market is ready for it. By the way he said, it sounded like he meant adding an HDMI option for all 360's and not just doing for new 360's when the time comes (I could be wrong). So I guess it shouldn't be that hard.

From the industry insiders thread:


Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm
1080p is supported over VGA for DVD, HD DVD and gaming output. And yes, AACS does allow 1080p over VGA (classified under authorized "computer monitor outputs").

For component, you get gaming up to 1080p, and 1080i for HD DVD. DVD only works at 480p over this connection. The latter two are due to restrictions in DVD CCA and AACS rules for DVD and HD DVD playback respectively.

On gaming, the machine supports both scaling of 720p games to 1080p, and native games running at 1080p resolution. It is up to game developers to decide which way to go.


So...let me see if I have this right with this...I will be able to view my HD-DVD movies over component at 1080i with this add-on...I just can't up convert my standard dvd's to that level...correct? On the set I am putting this on...I don't have a VGA input....It's a Mitsubishi wsx 55511...and has only 1 component hd input...

Mac

So...let me see if I have this right with this...I will be able to view my HD-DVD movies over component at 1080i with this add-on...I just can't up convert my standard dvd's to that level...correct? On the set I am putting this on...I don't have a VGA input....It's a Mitsubishi wsx 55511...and has only 1 component hd input...

I think if upconversion is important (and if you have HDMI) you should buy Toshiba HD-A1 instead.

I think if upconversion is important (and if you have HDMI) you should buy Toshiba HD-A1 instead.

It's a Mitsubishi wsx 55511...and has only 1 component hd input......

I would be using this on this set for my downstairs HT/Gameroom for the kids...not my Sony XBR1...that I already have a XA1-KN on it ;) It doesn't have a VGA input on it either...just firewire

Thanks

Mac

I would be using this on this set for my downstairs HT/Gameroom for the kids...not my Sony XBR1...that I already have a XA1-KN on it ;) It doesn't have a VGA input on it either...just firewire

From the below link looks like you can use a vga to component adapter and get 1080i ...

http://www.soundresearchlabs.com/Mitsubishi+WS-55511+Platinum+Series+55-inch+Integrated+HDTV+~~74.html

One HDTV input with 480i, 480p and 1080i capability supporting component video and RGB.

just my 2c here....

I personally saw the HD DVD xbox 360 external add on last nite in action..... hooked via component cables to a calibrated Pioneer Elite... WOW

If one is a xbox owner and doesn't want to invest in a standalone HD player (for whatever reason), pre-order it now!!! holy smoke, amazing picture and sound..... especially for the $$ you spend. Did I mention anything about the packaged goodies??? get it, capish ;)

oh yes, all outputs support 1080i....

I would be using this on this set for my downstairs HT/Gameroom for the kids...not my Sony XBR1...that I already have a XA1-KN on it ;) It doesn't have a VGA input on it either...just firewire

Thanks

Mac

You could get a VGA to component transcoder (like this (http://cgi.*********/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320029212550&category=48637)) so that you are using vga from the xbox and can get 1080i (or p) via component. That way your dvd's would be upscaled for you - and my current understanding (but I could be wrong) is that you wouldn't have to worry about the ict (for hd dvd's) stuff either.

This has been discussed elsewhere for hdmi, but you need component right? It's not cheap (especially if you have to buy the vga cable (like this (http://cgi.*********/xBox360-2x-RCA-VGA-HD-AV-HDTV-Cable-for-XBOX-360-x06_W0QQitemZ110042311397QQihZ001QQcategoryZ122517QQrdZ1QQcm dZViewItem) - grand total of about $102 w/ shipping), but this is just a thought.

edit - just saw somebody made a better suggestion - looks like your tv can accept rgb signals.

From the below link looks like you can use a vga to component adapter and get 1080i ...

http://www.soundresearchlabs.com/Mitsubishi+WS-55511+Platinum+Series+55-inch+Integrated+HDTV+~~74.html

Ok...now..this may be asking what has already been ask...but...What is a good vga to component adapter?...I did a search and can only find 1 for $350.00...Sorry if this has been ask before...Also..I tried the links that Matt posted for both..and they don't work...Is there a cable I can use that allows this as well??

Mac

Look for VGA to 3 RCA component cable in monoprice.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10235&style=

So...basiclly I could use something like this if I have the right male/female adapter...and would be able to utilize the upconverting features correct?
http://www.cables4computer.com/newproduct/Prod_Group.aspx?groupcode=G0400&itemNo=PCM-2330-12&program=PT

Mac

So...basiclly I could use something like this if I have the right male/female adapter...and would be able to utilize the upconverting features correct?

Yes. Just make sure the tv can indeed take RGB input - like that website I linked to said. Try it first with a laptop/pc before buying the xbox add-on (if this is the deciding factor).

Ok...Sorry about all the dumb questions...I'm not as up to date on all of this as I should be...I have heard there was a problem with the ?(de-interlacing) if this is the correct wording...with transmitting a 1080i signal this way...and with my lack of knowledge on doing this..I don't want to just throw money away...Some folks said I need a Lumagen box to do this as well...and that seems like an awful lot of money to have to spend just to do what this $25 cable will do with the add-on...

Mac

Not sure if this has been reported, but it looks like Europe has a release date for the HD-DVD add-on: November 7.

Link:

http://www.xbox.com/en-GB/community/news/x06/showcase_feature.htm

Any guesses as to a North America date? My bet is simultaneous with the King Kong release on November 14.

Still no Amazon pre-order...

Look for VGA to 3 RCA component cable in monoprice.

http://www.monoprice.com/products/subdepartment.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10235&style=


Wouldn't it have to be a female VGA to component?

Not sure if this has been reported, but it looks like Europe has a release date for the HD-DVD add-on: November 7.

Link:

http://www.xbox.com/en-GB/community/news/x06/showcase_feature.htm

Any guesses as to a North America date? My bet is simultaneous with the King Kong release on November 14.

Still no Amazon pre-order...

Yep, I preordered when it was first added to another site and my order shows that it will ship 11/7.

Yep, I preordered when it was first added to another site and my order shows that it will ship 11/7.

Was this with a retailer in Europe or North America?

Just got back from the Missouri City EBGames and I pre-ordered my drive. I think I was the 1st. Date of penetration? :D Nov 7th. My Batman Begins HD-DVD arrived from Amazon tonight too. I'm good and ready!

Was this with a retailer in Europe or North America?

EBGames online.

Wouldn't it have to be a female VGA to component?

Or get a VGA gender changer.

Just got back from the Missouri City EBGames and I pre-ordered my drive. I think I was the 1st. Date of penetration? :D Nov 7th. My Batman Begins HD-DVD arrived from Amazon tonight too. I'm good and ready!

Wow, that's great news! Provided it's accurate of course... I was expecting "middle of November", meaning November 30 ;)

That means that with Kong officially releasing on the 14th, this is gonna be the grand-daddy of all street date breakers!

Someone attended a presentation given by MS and Toshiba on their upcoming HD-DVD products and found out a little bit of information about connecting the 360 HD-DVD drive to a PC:
...the 360 HD-DVD drive can be plugged into a PC and it will be recognized as an optical drive, but will not play HD-DVD movies. I asked what if you have the proper HD-DVD software on the PC, to that [redacted] said that he didn't know, it hadn't been tried yet- maybe there's something there.

Full article here (http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertainment/microsoft-and-toshiba-demo-the-xbox-360-hd-dvd-and-2nd-gen-hd-dvd-players-207254.php)

Any word on what the Japanese release will be packaged with?

Just got back from the Missouri City EBGames and I pre-ordered my drive. I think I was the 1st. Date of penetration? :D Nov 7th. My Batman Begins HD-DVD arrived from Amazon tonight too. I'm good and ready!

I ordered online from EB today. Do you think we have a better chance preordering in store too and cancel in case GStop stores get sooner?
Anyone remember last year if EB (game stop) online was one of the first ones before amazon/toysrus, Wallmart.com or Fingerhut.com having 360s in stock ?
With some help from AVS members I was able to get a 360 for my son with broken leg from Wallmart and toysrus first week of January. l returned the extra 360 to a local ToysRus and a kid grabed it in few seconds after I got my refund. He was very happy :)
I will be happy like a kid when I get my HD-DVD Nov 7th.

Ufff, my local EB still has no sku in his system for the drive ! !!!!

But their alottment of 14 ps3's is in (and gone).

Ufff, my local EB still has no sku in his system for the drive ! !!!!

But their alottment of 14 ps3's is in (and gone).

They just don't know where to look. It is DEFINATELY in the system, I preordered mine from my local EBGames weeks ago!

Ufff, my local EB still has no sku in his system for the drive ! !!!!

But their alottment of 14 ps3's is in (and gone).I don't have my receipt with me, but someone can post the SKU#. If no one has posted it, I will when I get home!

Think this is it: 802558

Someone attended a presentation given by MS and Toshiba on their upcoming HD-DVD products and found out a little bit of information about connecting the 360 HD-DVD drive to a PC:


Full article here (http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertainment/microsoft-and-toshiba-demo-the-xbox-360-hd-dvd-and-2nd-gen-hd-dvd-players-207254.php)

We watched 1080i video, over component, from the 360 HD-DVD drive and there were absolutely NO artifacts. This was all Pioneer, so if you have $10k, by all means, this is the way to go

Well...this has answered my questions...I will be able to watch HD-DVD's at 1080i by component...I just wish we can find out if it will up-convert SD's to this rate as well over component...I haven't read anything if anyones tried it yet..

Mac

Just preordered my HD DVD add on.I had to put $25 down.Cant wait to be part of this hd dvd community ina few weeks

THanks I would appreciate it.

I just preordered mine today! Can't wait! I am also throwing on a vga to component adaptor today to see how the upscaling looks. If it's better than my Zenith I might just use it instead. We'll see.

will best buy or circuit city carry the xbox 360 hd-dvd player. if so will we be able to pre-order it like with the xbox 360. Worked great for me with the 360.

Sorry forgot to mention i got preorder at EB games

I was also at the demo of the 360 and I asked several questions on who makes the drives and if it could be used with a PC. It does have a USB connector and there is noting in it to stop it from working with a PC. I would think that with the right software and a fast enough PC it should be possible to use it. I also asked who made the drives for the New Toshiba and XBox 360 and I was told that it is a joint venture between Toshiba and Samsung. The orignal drive in the Toshiba was made by NEC. I also noticed that the boot time was much faster than the original Toshiba HD1. The price seems like a steal since one will get a $30 movie and a universal remote in the package. I was also concerned about the lack of HDMI and that might be a blessing if enough people buy the HD player the film companies will never be able to flag the disks without getting everyone angry.

Will the HD DVD for Xbox360 be able to play DVDR discs authored as HD DVD?

Is there are info on how many of the HD-DVD drive add-ons will be released next month? I plan on getting one, but do I need to pre-order? I've searched but haven't seen any release numbers. Thanks.

Is there are info on how many of the HD-DVD drive add-ons will be released next month? I plan on getting one, but do I need to pre-order? I've searched but haven't seen any release numbers. Thanks.

From the above posted article

They wouldn't say how many HD-DVD drives would be available at launch (Nov 17, i think), but later on during different questions/conversations they said there would be "a couple hundred thousand", and "several hundred thousand" for the holidays.

Well...this has answered my questions...I will be able to watch HD-DVD's at 1080i by component...I just wish we can find out if it will up-convert SD's to this rate as well over component...I haven't read anything if anyones tried it yet..

Mac

It will not upscale to 1080i over component. It will upscale to 1080p over VGA (when the dashboard update comes out at the same time as the add-on). 1080p HD DVD playback is also possible via VGA.

I just preordered mine today! Can't wait! I am also throwing on a vga to component adaptor today to see how the upscaling looks. If it's better than my Zenith I might just use it instead. We'll see.


Which adapter are you getting?

How fast is it and can you shove it in the HD-A1?

Pre-ordered mine at EB games today. $25 minimum But I am a happy camper.

Now if Micosoft will only announce that you can connect the xbox 360 add on HD DVD Drive to your pc and add the player software AND if you have the right graphics card connected to your hd tv, then Sony will really be in trouble. Not only would Microsoft be selling into the Xbox 360 5 million plus market but tens millions of PC's

The sub 200 dollar price will definitely put the pressure on Sony

John

i think they covered that issue..i read it will through usb..i never really looked at it that way..

FOUND IT: http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertainment/microsoft-and-toshiba-demo-the-xbox-360-hd-dvd-and-2nd-gen-hd-dvd-players-207254.php

Pre-ordered mine at EB games today. $25 minimum But I am a happy camper.


Pre-ordered at Game stop. $25 down. The cashier has no idea about this add-on. Using SKU#802558 to locate the item. The expected date is 11/08. Also me is the second pre-order in their system. They don't know their allocation quantity.

Anyway, they have 8 PS3 for pre-order, all gone of course. They don't even think they could get 8 PS3 to fill the pre-order. It's going to be tight.:)

I pre-ordered mine as well. I also think these are going to be hard to come by initially. Its not to see fellow members in line as well to give feedback.

FYI - I have a Sony Pearl projecting on a 98" Silverstar just dying for this!

I pre-ordered mine as well. I also think these are going to be hard to come by initially. Its not to see fellow members in line as well to give feedback.

FYI - I have a Sony Pearl projecting on a 98" Silverstar just dying for this!


You have a Pearl and you're gunning for the add-on instead of the Toshiba XA2 player with full 1080p video and true full-rez HDMI-based audio?

Wow. Don't know what to say to that. Burn your budget for this year or what? ;)

Btw, The 360, right now, play PAL Zone 0 disk in 720p with VGA just perfectly. If you have a PAL DVD, just rip the zone in a backup and Voila! It works!

You have a Pearl and you're gunning for the add-on instead of the Toshiba XA2 player with full 1080p video and true full-rez HDMI-based audio?

Wow. Don't know what to say to that. Burn your budget for this year or what? ;)

The video processing circuit in Pearl might do the 1080i60-1080p60 job as good as XA2. Also, Pearl is budget king for 1080p FP just like the 360 add-on for HD DVD player.

Will the VGA to Component cable give better results picture wise than straight Component ?

Has anyone in Canada been able to pre-order or get any info from any local stores?

Everywhere I've gone to and asked about the 360 HD-DVD add-on, they seem to have no idea what I'm talking about. That doesn't surprise me much but I was wondering if any stores have a sku for it and the employees just don't know about it yet.

Is EB and Game Stop the only two taking pre-orders and do they both require deposits and charge shipping? The profit on the HD DVD adaptor is very slim for dealers.

-Robert

Just to let you know I tried using the vga cable to a component adaptor and it didn't work. I have a Sony A20 that has a 720p rez. It seemed like it wouldn't sync. I could see a partial picture but nothing usable.

Has anyone else gotten a vga to component adaptor to work? Oh well, still looking forward to the HD drive!

Is EB and Game Stop the only two taking pre-orders and do they both require deposits and charge shipping? The profit on the HD DVD adaptor is very slim for dealers.

-Robert

I'm not sure. I paid for the whole thing? I bought it on line. I think someone else mentioned they put down $25.

i pre-ordered at an EB-Games today. the clerk didn't think he could take pre-orders on it yet, but he checked the computer and found it.

Just to let you know I tried using the vga cable to a component adaptor and it didn't work. I have a Sony A20 that has a 720p rez. It seemed like it wouldn't sync. I could see a partial picture but nothing usable.


of course because you are missing the other to cables Horizontal sync and vertical sync

i was looking and found this

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=1309

its a vga to dvi converter from there you can use a dvi to hdmi !
--could work...


more expensive an scaler ($300)

http://www.gefen.com/kvm/product.jsp?prod_id=3557

Seems strange that the adaptor I have even exists then. It's a straight up vga to component adaptor. I have used it with my note book and we have used them at work and never had an issue. What am I missing?

I thought component had sync on green?

Has anyone in Canada been able to pre-order or get any info from any local stores?

Everywhere I've gone to and asked about the 360 HD-DVD add-on, they seem to have no idea what I'm talking about. That doesn't surprise me much but I was wondering if any stores have a sku for it and the employees just don't know about it yet.

I called a local EB in Ottawa, they don't have a SKU yet so they can't start preorders. They expect it to happen soon, though. They did confirm that MSRP will be C$199 (C$ at par!).

Seems strange that the adaptor I have even exists then. It's a straight up vga to component adaptor. I have used it with my note book and we have used them at work and never had an issue. What am I missing?

I thought component had sync on green?

There are some systems that output Component over the vga connection, and as such as simple breakout cable to just the three bnc/rca connections work, for try vga to component you need the additional sync connections

John

I'm looking at getting the add on player for my 360 because of the cost, but will we get 7.1 audio through it or do I need to buy a Toshiba? And do I need to buy the XA1 at that since I don't have a HDMI input on my receiver (AVR635)? The AVR does have analog connections for 8ch.

Since I just bought my speakers and receiver (and 360) last year it'd be very disappointing to be hamstrung by a lack of HDMI, and Now I'm seeing that my brand new Optoma HD72 is the first PJ I've had w/o a VGA in.

In any case what does anyone suggest?

Is EB and Game Stop the only two taking pre-orders and do they both require deposits and charge shipping? The profit on the HD DVD adaptor is very slim for dealers.

-Robert

Robert, I preordered the 360 drive from Gamestop.com on 10/3 and they don't charge until it is shipped. Then again, they do charge sales tax and I'll be paying $9.99 for 2-day shipping.

Why? Are you going to be selling it? Can you do better? ;) I already bought my A1 from you, so I'd definitely consider buying the 360 drive from you if you're going to sell them and will have them available to ship the same time as everyone else.

I called a local EB in Ottawa, they don't have a SKU yet so they can't start preorders. They expect it to happen soon, though. They did confirm that MSRP will be C$199 (C$ at par!).

I assume you're planning on pre-ordering one?

That's great news about the $199 CAD price. I read that a few times now and wasn't sure I believed it but, sounds like it's true.

Considering Xbox Live is down for the day, as upgrades are about to be implemented, does anyone know whether or not the 1080p capability will be part of that update? I can't wait to see how it runs outputting at my display's native resolution. Maybe they'll throw a 1080p trailer or 2 on the marketplace to keep us happy.

According to a Microsoft release, the downtime of XBL is to prepair for the Fall update. They said that there will be no update for the console for awhile. I'll see if I can dig up the article.

Actually, since xbox.com is down also, I can't link to the article posted by Major Nelson, but I found it copied on another website:

Press Release:


Downtime for Xbox.com and Xbox Live

We've got some scheduled maintenance coming up and want to let everyone know that both the Xbox Live® service and Xbox.com will be offline and unavailable starting at midnight Pacific Time on Tuesday October 17, 2006 for up to 24 hours. We know you've got some questions, so here are some answers:

Q: Why? Why? Why?

A: Because we're adding some cool stuff. And we have to take the service and website offline in order to do it. We're not doing it to make you mad … really.

Q: What kind of cool stuff?

A: Secret cool stuff that we'll tell you about when we're back online October 18. Other stuff we'll be talking about later in the fall.

Q: Is this a Dashboard update?

A: Nope.

It might be nice if they have two output configurations for the 360 (with a HD DVD drive). I know that my setup would work great if I could output 720p for 360 games, but default to 1080i for HD DVD movies (to input into my scaler). With only one option, I might have to select 1080i which might not be the best for games. SJ

I'm still unsure of the audio side of the HD-DVD drive. Apparently we will be stuck with the current optical connection as opposed to 5.1 analog or HDMI. This is going to remove the option to use the DD+ and other lossless formats and limit us to DVD quality sound.

Sounds like we will be getting the picture end of the HD-DVD, but not the audio end???

At least that's how I understand things.

I'm still unsure of the audio side of the HD-DVD drive. Apparently we will be stuck with the current optical connection as opposed to 5.1 analog or HDMI. This is going to remove the option to use the DD+ and other lossless formats and limit us to DVD quality sound.

Sounds like we will be getting the picture end of the HD-DVD, but not the audio end???

At least that's how I understand things.

To say that we won't benefit from TrueHD soundtracks isn't entirely true, from what Amir has said here. The reason being that, while it's true that we won't be able to have lossless audio, the audio will be encoded at the maximum possible bitrate that Dolby Digital allows. This is in contrast to most DD soundtracks on standard DVD, where the average bitrate is considerably lower than maximum.

Because of that, I'm not too worried that we'll be losing much, unless you have an extremely high end audio setup.

If you really want the lossless audio and have a nice receiver and/or scaler and all that jazz, you might as well just get one of the standalone players. The 360 hd-dvd drive, while it doesn't give you 1080p on hdmi or lossless audio, that's fine by me. I don't have room for another standalone player, the fact i don't have to get new cables and hook them up is a big convenience, and it's really cheap, plus there's many people that already have a 360. And here in canada, it's really cheap, I mean $200cad. Versus the Toshiba HD-A1 costs $700cad here. The HD-A2 will prolly cost $700cad as well and seeing how it doesn't have analog outs (and I don't have a HDMI receiver or a high end audio setup anyway), the 360 hd-dvd addon is a no brainer for someone like me since I want hd-dvd and I can get it cheap and it's convenient as well.

question: my tv has a DVI connector, so right now I'm using a VGA/DVI adapter for my HTPC hookup, so how will I hook up the HD-DVD add-on? splitter of some sort?

If you really want the lossless audio and have a nice receiver and/or scaler and all that jazz, you might as well just get one of the standalone players.

Thats true. HD-A1 can be had for below $350 now on ebay.

It's not a huge deal to me, but I just thought it would be nice if they would produce a cable that would allow us to have all the benefits of the stand alone players. Personally, my TV doesn't have a HDMI because it's about 4 or 5 years old. I was just hoping they would come out with a cable that would allow me to use the analog 5.1 inputs on the back of my receiver instead of the optical that I use now.

question: my tv has a DVI connector, so right now I'm using a VGA/DVI adapter for my HTPC hookup, so how will I hook up the HD-DVD add-on? splitter of some sort?


Would you mind telling me where you got the VGA to DVI connector ? And what brand/model it is? That sounds like exactly what I need to take full advantage of this add on. I have a rpcrt with hdmi input.


As for your question. There are hdmi splitters everywhere.

I thought someone posted that the vga to dvi adapter didnt work?

The 360 hd-dvd drive, while it doesn't give you 1080p on hdmi or lossless audio, that's fine by me.

Just to pick nits, it will do 1080p60 out over VGA. I wish it could do 1080p24 over VGA though. Oh well, maybe for the G3 HD DVD players. Silly Japanese engineers.

If getting losseless sound out is important to you, go with the A2/A1. Although I agree I've always been baffled as to why the 360 doesn't have multi-channel analog outs as an option (not that it's DACs would be of superlative quality or anything).

Just to pick nits, it will do 1080p60 out over VGA.

There is no reason why 1080p24 or 48 or 72 can't be done over VGA. Infact if enough consumers demand it, it may get added (if it doesn't do it already).

I thought someone posted that the vga to dvi adapter didnt work?
It (a simple/cheap one) will if your display works with DVI-I (analog input pins on the DVI connector).

Bob

Does anyone know the official release date of this thing? Some sites are saying nov 7th, some sites are saying the 14th, and some sites are saying the 22nd... has there not been an official release date set?? It's driving me nuts!

It's apparently on the 13th in Canada. I can't post URLs, but it's up for pre-order at Amazon Canada and says the 13th.

Will TrueHD and DD+ work with an optical cable on the 360 drive and will it be the same quality to a standalone player? Thanks

Will TrueHD and DD+ work with an optical cable on the 360 drive and will it be the same quality to a standalone player? Thanks

True HD will not work because you can only attain that through an analog uncompressed connection.. I don't know about DD+ but I think DTS will work. In terms of picture quality... I believe the encoding is done on the disc so the image quality should be on par with the current players on the market... This is based on my research (I'm not a pro) so please correct me if I am wrong...

Would you mind telling me where you got the VGA to DVI connector ?

CompUSA, about $20. When you say HDMI splitter, I run VGA converter from the HD-DVD to one of my HDMI ports in my TV? :confused:

Does anyone know the official release date of this thing? Some sites are saying nov 7th, some sites are saying the 14th, and some sites are saying the 22nd... has there not been an official release date set?? It's driving me nuts!

I pre-ordered mine from a local EB-Games yesterday. They say it'll be in-store on the 8th of Nov. They took a $25 deposit.

Ive got the all digital dvi so i guess those converters wont work

There is no reason why 1080p24 or 48 or 72 can't be done over VGA. Infact if enough consumers demand it, it may get added (if it doesn't do it already).

Well I already indicated my ire to my friend that is a dev on the 360 software player side at the lack of 1080p24 (which is what I want since my display won't support a higher fresh than that over VGA), but it would be a good differentiating feature for sure. And if the PS3 ends up with a 1080p24 movie mode, it wouldn't shock me to see MS follow suit with an update.

It might be nice if they have two output configurations for the 360 (with a HD DVD drive). I know that my setup would work great if I could output 720p for 360 games, but default to 1080i for HD DVD movies (to input into my scaler). With only one option, I might have to select 1080i which might not be the best for games. SJ

You can't set different auto configurations but you can change the 360 output resolution very quickly and easily from the System blade and the blades are accessible at any time.

You can't set different auto configurations but you can change the 360 output resolution very quickly and easily from the System blade and the blades are accessible at any time.


thats a shame. As mentioned I'd want 720p for games (most likely native resolution for the games, and closest to my TV resolution), but 1080i for movies.

I'd also want auto notification of friends etc turned off for movies but on for games. I don't want "jbob5003 is online" popping up while i'm watching Casablanca

They need some kind of context profile you can set up.

I'd also want auto notification of friends etc turned off for movies but on for games. I don't want "jbob5003 is online" popping up while i'm watching Casablanca

I just turn off auto-login for this reason. I hate being interrupted during movies and when watching TV. When I play games, it's just 2 clicks to get logged in. If you're hoping back and forth a lot, I can see it being a pain, but I usually sit down and do one or the other.

I pre-ordered mine from a local EB-Games yesterday. They say it'll be in-store on the 8th of Nov. They took a $25 deposit.Microsoft is preempting Sony's Nov. 17th PS3 release. I know this is going to but a dent in the PS3 sales for some time. I hear that a lot of gamers are pissed at Sony for the price hike do to the inclusion of the Blu-Ray drive.

Calling 360 Experts,

I've read through the whole thread but I'm still wondering if the 360 w/HD DVD add on will truly be able to play commerical or rented HD DVD at 720p/1080i/1080p via the VGA port. I have a 9" CRT PJ that needs a RGBHV signal. Can someone chime in if this will be possible or will the security feature of the HD DVD and SD disk prevent this. I'm planning to purchase a 360 primarily for the HD DVD since it seem to be my only option for getting HD DVD player with a signal I can use.

Andre

I'm very curious to see how well the drive does with the audio. Most Dolby Digital DVD's have a bit rate of around 384 kbps (kilobits per second). The maximum bit rate Dolby Digital allows for is 640 kbps. From information earlier in this thread it looks like the TrueHD and DD+ signals wil be downsampled to this 640 kbps if I understand correctly (which I may not). 640 kbps isn't all that great as it isn't even better than the half bit rate DTS (754kbps) that is used in most DTS DVD's. That being said, I have sampled a couple full bit rate DTS movies (1509 kbps) and didn't really notice a difference over half bit rate movies. My hardware is likely the reason why.

I'm curious to know if the HDDVD drive will support DTS at its full bit rate. My understanding is that it must in order to be able to put a DVD label on it. Which brings me to my next question... Why not downsample the TrueHD and DD+ sound tracks to DTS? Standard digital coax and toslink cables can support the full DTS bit rate so why not use it? You'd end up with 2.5x the audio data than Dolby Digital. Maybe because DD and DTS are different companies is the reason why.

Finally, if I was unable to hear much of a difference between full bit rate DTS and half, then would I notice the 100kbps less than half bit rate DTS in maximum bit rate Dolby Digital? :| I guess thats the million dollar question I would like answered.

Comments?

I'm just a consumer trying to make sense of all this HD stuff going around, spending hundreds of hours reading trying to sort it all out. That is the limit of my experience.

I'm curious to know if the HDDVD drive will support DTS at its full bit rate.



HD DVD spec support DTS to 1.5Mbps according to http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060324/sound.htm. It is mandatory. Not sure what do you mean by drive?



Why not downsample the TrueHD and DD+ sound tracks to DTS? Standard digital coax and toslink cables can support the full DTS bit rate so why not use it?

Maybe DD receiver is more popular than DTS? Maybe DD is also part of the ATSC. Maybe DTS re-encode royalty is more expensive while doesn't bring any benefit.

Calling 360 Experts,

I've read through the whole thread but I'm still wondering if the 360 w/HD DVD add on will truly be able to play commerical or rented HD DVD at 720p/1080i/1080p via the VGA port. I have a 9" CRT PJ that needs a RGBHV signal. Can someone chime in if this will be possible or will the security feature of the HD DVD and SD disk prevent this. I'm planning to purchase a 360 primarily for the HD DVD since it seem to be my only option for getting HD DVD player with a signal I can use.

Andre

Again 1080p60 for commerical HD DVD titles via VGA is allowed per AACS as long as the ICT is not on. AFAIk, no titles released have ICT.

HD DVD spec support DTS to 1.5Mbps according to http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20060324/sound.htm. It is mandatory. Not sure what do you mean by drive?


Just meant the physical HD DVD expansion unit itself for the 360.

It (a simple/cheap one) will if your display works with DVI-I (analog input pins on the DVI connector).

Bob

I have a Sony rear projection I bought about two years ago. How would I know if I have the DVI-I ?

I have a Sony rear projection I bought about two years ago. How would I know if I have the DVI-I ?

Check on the back of your unit for a connection that looks like this: http://www.atmarkit.co.jp/fsys/cableconnect/05disp_video/03dvi_d-box-l.jpg

That being said, I have sampled a couple full bit rate DTS movies (1509 kbps) and didn't really notice a difference over half bit rate movies. My hardware is likely the reason why.

....

Finally, if I was unable to hear much of a difference between full bit rate DTS and half, then would I notice the 100kbps less than half bit rate DTS in maximum bit rate Dolby Digital? :| I guess thats the million dollar question I would like answered.

That's interesting. So you're saying doubling the bit-rate on DTS did not produce enough difference in audio quality for you to hear?

Admittedly I have not payed as much attention to audio (beyond having solid 5.1 surround on my Marantz) as I have to video so now I'm getting more curious about the audio differences. Anyone know offhand some DVD's that support 1.5 DTS so I could do some testing?

I can certainly hear the difference from DD 5.1 to DTS in general so I'd like to see what increasing the bit rate within each one actually produces sonically.

Microsoft is preempting Sony's Nov. 17th PS3 release. I know this is going to but a dent in the PS3 sales for some time. I hear that a lot of gamers are pissed at Sony for the price hike do to the inclusion of the Blu-Ray drive.

I dont' think PS3 sales will be affected for some time as they will all sell out thru at least early spring unless something is horribly wrong with Sony's plans.

The risk though for Sony's strategy is if the 360 (and Wii) sales go up because of a lot people that would have waited for PS3 later when the availability is there but instead decide to go with a competitor and possibly never come back to PS3.

Amir; Do you know how many HD-DVD add-on are going to be available for launch?.......Will it be more than the PS3?

Looks like HD-DVD is getting some help from Sony......Gizmodo is reporting a possible delay with the PS3. http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertainment/playstation-3-to-miss-november-17-ship-date-209052.php

Again 1080p60 for commerical HD DVD titles via VGA is allowed per AACS as long as the ICT is not on. AFAIk, no titles released have ICT.

I understood the "loophole" was that 1080 was allowed via VGA DESPITE ICT being set.

Looks like HD-DVD is getting some help from Sony......Gizmodo is reporting a possible delay with the PS3. http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/home-entertainment/playstation-3-to-miss-november-17-ship-date-209052.php

I think it actually referred to number of units shipped rather than ship date

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aHLZ6fnYiNoY

Still, more people may be inclined to pick up a 360 instead.

I understood the "loophole" was that 1080 was allowed via VGA DESPITE ICT being set.

The loophole refers to no 1080p60 from analog output or the highest is 1080i60. But then you have VGA as an AACS approved computer output to do 1080p60.

So.. what cable should I get to get the best pic for this darn thing ???

That's interesting. So you're saying doubling the bit-rate on DTS did not produce enough difference in audio quality for you to hear?

Admittedly I have not payed as much attention to audio (beyond having solid 5.1 surround on my Marantz) as I have to video so now I'm getting more curious about the audio differences. Anyone know offhand some DVD's that support 1.5 DTS so I could do some testing?

I can certainly hear the difference from DD 5.1 to DTS in general so I'd like to see what increasing the bit rate within each one actually produces sonically.

Here's a list of all the DTS movies and their bit rates. As you'll see, most are half bit rate (754 kbps). They started with full bit rate with some of the 1998ish titles, but I'd imagine they scaled it back to half in order to fit special features onto the disks.

http://www.spannerworks.net/reference/10_6a.asp

So.. what cable should I get to get the best pic for this darn thing ???

VGA if you have a 1080p set. If not, 720p/1080i on component will suffice but SD DVD's will only upscale on VGA so that's another thing VGA has going for it.

The loophole refers to no 1080p60 from analog output or the highest is 1080i60. But then you have VGA as an AACS approved computer output to do 1080p60.

Isn't that backwards?

The restriction is no 1080 over component if ICT set.

The loophole is that 1080 can be output over VGA, even if the ICT is set.

Isn't that backwards?

The restriction is no 1080 over component if ICT set.

The loophole is that 1080 can be output over VGA, even if the ICT is set.


According to my understanding, if ICT is on, 1080 has to be downscale first before output via analog which include VGA. There is no "loophole" in the ICT department. Correct me if I am wrong.

does anyone know if MS will make a package bundle to include the HD dvd add on or something like that?

Ok, so I am in the market for getting and HD-DVD player and the Xbox 360. I know it might be a bit premature to start asking some of these questions now (since the add-on hasn't been released yet) but i've been trying to do some research on this and can't find any (yet).

I have a Samsung Syncmaster 730b LCD Monitor for my computer (has DVI and VGA). I don't have an HD-TV yet but I would love to play some xbox 360 games and the hd-dvd on this monitor through the VGA slot.

Is this a viable solution until I buy an HD-TV? Will VGA output 1080i on this monitor (http://reviews.cnet.com/Samsung_SyncMaster_730B_flat_panel_display_TFT_17/4505-3174_7-31412561.html)?

I'm know it's small but i'm fine with that. I just want to make sure the HD-DVD will look pretty good on it.

Thanks!

does anyone know if MS will make a package bundle to include the HD dvd add on or something like that?
It's been known for a while now that the initial release will include (who knows how long it will be available for) the movie Kong and a remote.

According to my understanding, if ICT is on, 1080 has to be downscale first before output via analog which include VGA. There is no "loophole" in the ICT department. Correct me if I am wrong.

This is correct. If ICT is set, even over VGA, video needs to be downrezed.

It's been known for a while now that the initial release will include (who knows how long it will be available for) the movie Kong and a remote.
AHHH...ok I was thinking of some kind of special box with the drive and 360 along with remote and specail stuff all rolled up into one :D

Important question (to me):
Will the Xbox 360 be updated to output 1920x1200?

There are some 24 inch PC monitors out that don´t support 1:1 pixel aspect in 1080p.
If the 360´s new resolutions max out at 1920x1080, games and movies will be displayed stretched on these monitors. :(

I understand this question is a long shot put I´m hoping, someone on this forum may know.

Here's a list of all the DTS movies and their bit rates. As you'll see, most are half bit rate (754 kbps). They started with full bit rate with some of the 1998ish titles, but I'd imagine they scaled it back to half in order to fit special features onto the disks.

http://www.spannerworks.net/reference/10_6a.asp

I have about 12 fullrate DTS movies and there is clearly a difference between fulllrate and halfrate. listening to halfrate after having watched a fullrate movie you miss the richness of the fullrate, and the added compression om base and high sounds is very evident.
but DTS i great no matter what bitrate!

AHHH...ok I was thinking of some kind of special box with the drive and 360 along with remote and specail stuff all rolled up into one :D
OK, I gotcha now. I thought you were talking about the drive alone. I haven't heard of any console package yet.

Looks like if revised 360 with HD DRIVE is 1080P compatible then only way to play back 1080P is component or VGA? no HDMI???

According to my understanding, if ICT is on, 1080 has to be downscale first before output via analog which include VGA. There is no "loophole" in the ICT department. Correct me if I am wrong.

Engadget's comments (http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/09/21/xbox-360-hd-dvd-playback-maximum-1080i-via-component-1080p-vga/)

Engadget's comments (http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/09/21/xbox-360-hd-dvd-playback-maximum-1080i-via-component-1080p-vga/)


According to the article, VGA could circumvent the CSS requirement and upscale DVD to 1080p. But they didn't mention ICT. :)

I pre-ordered mine today from ebgames, will it come with the king kong movie

I pre-ordered mine today from ebgames, will it come with the king kong movie
It darn well should! That is the standard current MS offering along with the remote control. Could change in the future.

I saw a couple of discussions on this, but no definitive answer: will a VGA->DVI cable work (via DVI-I) to upconvert all to 1080p? I don't have VGA on my sharp, I do have DVI-I however.

Has anyone in Canada been able to pre-order or get any info from any local stores?

Everywhere I've gone to and asked about the 360 HD-DVD add-on, they seem to have no idea what I'm talking about. That doesn't surprise me much but I was wondering if any stores have a sku for it and the employees just don't know about it yet.I called a local EB in Ottawa, they don't have a SKU yet so they can't start preorders. They expect it to happen soon, though. They did confirm that MSRP will be C$199 (C$ at par!).
I pre-ordered at an EB Games store in Toronto. They only needed a $10 deposit.

It's CAD$199.99 including the universal media remote and King Kong. That's an excellent price, and better than I was hoping (which was $199.99 not including King Kong). They claim the release date is Nov. 12 which seems a bit odd to me considering it's a Sunday.

I sure as hell hope I get my pre-order filled that week, considering I've already purchased a couple of HD DVDs. :p

I pre-ordered at an EB Games store in Toronto. They only needed a $10 deposit.

It's CAD$199.99 including the universal media remote and King Kong. That's an excellent price, and better than I was hoping (which was $199.99 not including King Kong). They claim the release date is Nov. 12 which seems a bit odd to me considering it's a Sunday.

I sure as hell hope I get my pre-order filled that week, considering I've already purchased a couple of HD DVDs. :p

If fact the Shipping Date is Nov13th according to Ebgames.com (US) and should be in store between Nov14 and Nov16 all accross america..

If fact the Shipping Date is Nov13th according to Ebgames.com (US) and should be in store between Nov14 and Nov16 all accross america..
Hmmm... The EB Games website says Nov. 7 (http://www.ebgames.com/product.asp?product%5Fid=802558) for the shipping date.

FWIW, your Nov. 14 date makes sense in that Nov. 14 is the release date for King Kong.

P.S. Is GameStop (http://www.gamestop.com/product.asp?product%5Fid=802558) the same company? Their websites look almost identical. GameStop also says Nov. 7.

I saw a couple of discussions on this, but no definitive answer: will a VGA->DVI cable work (via DVI-I) to upconvert all to 1080p? I don't have VGA on my sharp, I do have DVI-I however.

If its DVI-I (which is DVI-A aka VGA/RGBHV and DVI-D combined), then that should work. If it has a DVI-I connector but truely only accepts DVI-D, no go. I've seen some devices that have DVI-I connectors just so you can use any kind of cable to it, but only have the DVI-D pins active..

If you have a VGA to DVI-A/I adapter handy, try hooking up your PC that way, if it isn't already. If it works, it works. If it doesn't, it doesn't.

Does anyone know if these players come with universal power supplies. Tried finding every detailed specs I can find on the net but came up empty on this one.

I pre-order the hd-dvd player already. Will I need to download anything to my xbox360 in order for the hd-dvd player to work. I do NOT have xbox live

Remember King Kong is bundled and its release date is 11/14, so we are told not to ship any Xbox 360 HD DVD adaptors till 11/13 at the earliest.

-Robert

No HDMI so I will not be getting the 360 add on but will be getting the A2 though.

Rob

why does ebgames/gamestop say that you can pick it up on the 8th of november if you pre-ordered at the store. Thats what they told me yesterday. Does this make sense.

I pre-order the hd-dvd player already. Will I need to download anything to my xbox360 in order for the hd-dvd player to work. I do NOT have xbox live

In Major Nelsons last Podcast, the MS person he was interviewing stated that the HD DVD drive would probably be out a little before the KK release date so those people would actually have it before the official KK release date. So far Amazon is showing 11/7 as the release date, but that can easily change.

Here are some concerns of mine. I want an xbox 360 system. Since I will be paying a fair price for this system, it makes since to purchase the HD add-on instead of purchasing a stand-alone player for $400 and change. I could care less about upconversion as I have an upconverting player already. I only need the add-on to play HD movies over component. There is talk of an Xbox 360 price drop along with the development of the newer chip allowing the system to run cooler. My gut tells me to wait for the newer Xbox systems and a possible price drop. Does anyone have a review yet on the actual performance of this new add-on?

I may preorder the add-on in order to guarantee my free copy of King Kong and leave all else intact for resale should the reviews rate this new add-on poorly. If the add-on is given the thumbs up, I will hopefully hear something on the Xbox 360 price drop toward the release of the PS3. Anyone else sitting on the fence as I am? I am in the same camp as some here with the intent on purchasing a blu ray player also. I want the ability to view what is available. I will most likely pick up a PS3($500.00)system for my blu ray capabilities since I am also interested in gaming on the PS3. Once stand-alone players become more reasonable in price, I will look at individual hd-dvd and blu ray players. :cool:

I pre-order the hd-dvd player already. Will I need to download anything to my xbox360 in order for the hd-dvd player to work. I do NOT have xbox live

Amir mentioned awhile back that the HD-DVD add-on would ship with a CD containing the latest XBox 360 firmware (which contains the software required to play the HD-DVDs). So no, Internet connectivity is not required.

There is talk of an Xbox 360 price drop along with the development of the newer chip allowing the system to run cooler. My gut tells me to wait for the newer Xbox systems and a possible price drop. Does anyone have a review yet on the actual performance of this new add-on?

As a lifelong gamer, here's what has happened in years past.

1. The new CPU/GPU will let the 360 run cooler, significantly so. However, if you don't plan to keep your 360 enclosed in a tight space sitting on top of your A/V receiver, you will notice no difference whatsoever. The main reason for the die shrink is to save Microsoft money, not increase the capabilities of the console. However, I have no doubt that the newer 360s (due to start production summer of '07) will be able to live through more abuse than the current model.

2. There will be a price drop in the spring. My guess is MS will start by dropping its prices by $50, and Sony will follow suit. However, anything really could happen here. If Sony's attach rate of its software is abysmal, they might just bite the bullet and go for a "whole hog" $100 price drop.

Personally, I've had my 360 since 12/05, and it's the best game machine one could ask for. If you have high-speed internet, the boatloads of free demos, trailers, etc. is a very cool capability. The games are phenomenal for a first-year machine, as well. With the HD-DVD attachment, it represents an unbelievable value.

As a lifelong gamer, here's what has happened in years past.

1. The new CPU/GPU will let the 360 run cooler, significantly so. However, if you don't plan to keep your 360 enclosed in a tight space sitting on top of your A/V receiver, you will notice no difference whatsoever. The main reason for the die shrink is to save Microsoft money, not increase the capabilities of the console. However, I have no doubt that the newer 360s (due to start production summer of '07) will be able to live through more abuse than the current model.

2. There will be a price drop in the spring. My guess is MS will start by dropping its prices by $50, and Sony will follow suit. However, anything really could happen here. If Sony's attach rate of its software is abysmal, they might just bite the bullet and go for a "whole hog" $100 price drop.

Personally, I've had my 360 since 12/05, and it's the best game machine one could ask for. If you have high-speed internet, the boatloads of free demos, trailers, etc. is a very cool capability. The games are phenomenal for a first-year machine, as well. With the HD-DVD attachment, it represents an unbelievable value.

Thanks for your response. I ordered my add-on through Robert at Value Electronics. I figure that either way I am definitely getting into high def dvds so if this add-on proves to be a poor player, I can sell the drive on ebay and keep the movie. If the add-on proves to be on the same playing field as the Toshiba players, I will most likely go ahead and pick up my 360 system. If not...I will wait on the newer 360 machines(along with the hopeful price drop) and pick up a Toshiba in order to begin my HD-DVD experience. Blu Ray will be determined by reviews on the Sony PS3 as far as it's ability as a player. I realize it may not be online with the $1000 plus players but at half the cost it hopefully will be a strong contender. :cool:

Remember King Kong is bundled and its release date is 11/14, so we are told not to ship any Xbox 360 HD DVD adaptors till 11/13 at the earliest.

-Robert
Interesting. However, 3 different retailers are saying Nov. 7. Also, my local retailer said the following weekend. Then again, my local retailer may be confused because when I called that EB Games store, they said they it was not available for pre-order because it wasn't on their system. I said it was, and they checked, and confirmed it was available for pre-order, with arrival dates of Nov. 11 or Nov. 12 depending on which person I spoke with. No site or store I've come across (except yours) has said Nov. 13 or Nov. 14, although Nov. 13/14 would make sense because of King Kong.

Perhaps these sales people are just telling me the date they are getting it in, and not when they are supposed to be releasing it? That would make the most sense of the conflicting information available.

^^ Correct, I am also expecting my Xbox 360 HD DVD adaptors on or about November 7th, but was told not to ship to November 14th.

It gives me more time to double box every order and ship them all on the same day.

-Robert

^^ Correct, I am also expecting my Xbox 360 HD DVD adaptors on or about November 7th, but was told not to ship to November 14th.

It gives me more time to double box every order and ship them all on the same day.

-Robert
Do you only ship within the U.S Robert?
thx.

thanks pernar for the clarification. I pre-ordered mine at the gamestop store so I should be picking it up on the 8th of november.

Amazon is now sold out of the HD DVD pre-orders.

Any guesstimates as to how many units they actually got allocated?

BuGsArEtAsTy

Wow, sounds like the geeks are going to get them for their PC's.

BuGsArEtAsTy

Wow, sounds like the geeks are going to get them for their PC's.
Well, if so, it won't do them any good unless their PCs have 3rd party HD DVD decoding software, and they have a GPU that supports HDCP.

Does anyone know if these players come with universal power supplies. Tried finding every detailed specs I can find on the net but came up empty on this one.

I beleive so. Ofcourse the power cords will be local.

Engadget's comments (http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/09/21/xbox-360-hd-dvd-playback-maximum-1080i-via-component-1080p-vga/)

I doubt those guys know more about this than the people here ...

Amazon is now sold out of the HD DVD pre-orders.

Any guesstimates as to how many units they actually got allocated?

Wait a sec, Amazon US or abroad? The add-on hasn't even been available for pre-order from the main US site, and I signed up for the email alert for when it would become available a long time ago (which I still haven't received). I also monitor the site daily (actually hourly sometimes when I have the chance). So to be honest I'm dubious about your statement.

Wait a sec, Amazon US or abroad? The add-on hasn't even been available for pre-order from the main US site, and I signed up for the email alert for when it would become available a long time ago (which I still haven't received). I also monitor the site daily (actually hourly sometimes when I have the chance). So to be honest I'm dubious about your statement.
It looks like you missed out on the US Amazon.com pre-order my friend. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=739234)

Here's a list of all the DTS movies and their bit rates. As you'll see, most are half bit rate (754 kbps). They started with full bit rate with some of the 1998ish titles, but I'd imagine they scaled it back to half in order to fit special features onto the disks.

http://www.spannerworks.net/reference/10_6a.asp

Thanks for the list. I'll do some taste testing. Just glancing I can already recall Prince of Egypt having excellent sound.

I doubt those guys know more about this than the people here ...


How about these guys?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aFlCbcejTr_M&refer=home

Remember King Kong is bundled and its release date is 11/14, so we are told not to ship any Xbox 360 HD DVD adaptors till 11/13 at the earliest.

-Robert

i wonder how much it would cost if you FedEx/DHL/UPS the box to Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia? :p will pay the tax on my side. if you state its a computer drive, it would be untaxable though .. :p

has anyone preordered form circuit city.
i would like to use my card there so that the wife don't notice it coming out the main account :D
been looking for it to be advertised on the adds but i don't see it :(

i wonder how much it would cost if you FedEx/DHL/UPS the box to Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia? :p will pay the tax on my side. if you state its a computer drive, it would be untaxable though .. :p

Unfortunately Robert does not ship overseas. Luckily my local postal agency has a middle man service in the US which picks up such items in the US and sends them down to me in Singapore. That's how my A1 order with Robert was handled and it will be the same for my 360 add-on. I'm now praying these babies are equipped with universal power supplies so that i do not have to invest in a seperate step-down converter.

How about these guys?

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aFlCbcejTr_M&refer=home

More a question of what is it about than who is writing up.

Does anyone know if the HD-DVD addon will have a zoom similar to the 360 DVD Zoom? I currently use the 360 to zoom 2.35:1 DVDs to fill my 16:9 screen. I like the fact it has 10 variable steps, which have only a slight impact on picture quality.

Thanks,

Teddy

Any luck on figuring out if the drive will work with the software players on a PC? I have the card I need, but no software and I don't have a Xbox 360 so I'd prefer not to find out the hard way. :)

Chris

Wait a sec, Amazon US or abroad? The add-on hasn't even been available for pre-order from the main US site, and I signed up for the email alert for when it would become available a long time ago (which I still haven't received). I also monitor the site daily (actually hourly sometimes when I have the chance). So to be honest I'm dubious about your statement.

Sorry tebling but he's right. I signed up for the email alert too and it never arrived.

Fortunately for me I just happened to me looking thru the site over the weekend and noticed it WAS available for pre-order. Must have just been lucky as I was able to complete the order and the next time I looked to refer one of my friends to the page, it was no longer available.

I pre-order the hd-dvd player already. Will I need to download anything to my xbox360 in order for the hd-dvd player to work. I do NOT have xbox live
Do you have highspeed internet? You can sign up for a FREE SILVER account. That way you can download any updates. If you don't have highspeed internet, can't help you there.

Sorry tebling but he's right. I signed up for the email alert too and it never arrived.

Fortunately for me I just happened to me looking thru the site over the weekend and noticed it WAS available for pre-order. Must have just been lucky as I was able to complete the order and the next time I looked to refer one of my friends to the page, it was no longer available.

I believe that the problem is that they have multiple listings for the HD DVD add-on. I've sent them some notes on this, but they seem confused. I also was signed up for the e-mail alert and if it hadn't been for this forum, I would have missed the pre-order from them. SJ

I'm very curious to see how well the drive does with the audio. Most Dolby Digital DVD's have a bit rate of around 384 kbps (kilobits per second). The maximum bit rate Dolby Digital allows for is 640 kbps. From information earlier in this thread it looks like the TrueHD and DD+ signals wil be downsampled to this 640 kbps if I understand correctly (which I may not). 640 kbps isn't all that great as it isn't even better than the half bit rate DTS (754kbps) that is used in most DTS DVD's. That being said, I have sampled a couple full bit rate DTS movies (1509 kbps) and didn't really notice a difference over half bit rate movies. My hardware is likely the reason why.

I'm curious to know if the HDDVD drive will support DTS at its full bit rate. My understanding is that it must in order to be able to put a DVD label on it. Which brings me to my next question... Why not downsample the TrueHD and DD+ sound tracks to DTS? Standard digital coax and toslink cables can support the full DTS bit rate so why not use it? You'd end up with 2.5x the audio data than Dolby Digital. Maybe because DD and DTS are different companies is the reason why.

Finally, if I was unable to hear much of a difference between full bit rate DTS and half, then would I notice the 100kbps less than half bit rate DTS in maximum bit rate Dolby Digital? :| I guess thats the million dollar question I would like answered.

Comments?

I'm just a consumer trying to make sense of all this HD stuff going around, spending hundreds of hours reading trying to sort it all out. That is the limit of my experience.

Yes, you are correct in that TrueHD and DD+ are products of dolby and DTS is a competitor.

As far as the noticing a discernable difference between TrueHD and it being downsampled to 640 kbps- that would be pretty tough on most mid-level consumer equipment which is what it sounds like you currently are using. This add-on is a very cost effective alternative to the dedicated players currently on the market as many users are not interested in either making a 5.1 analog connection, or do not have a fully audio capable hdmi receiver to accept pcm via hdmi.

According to the article, VGA could circumvent the CSS requirement and upscale DVD to 1080p. But they didn't mention ICT. :)

It says:

it's commonly accepted that the CSS (DVD) and AACS (HD DVD & Blu-ray) copyright provisions wouldn't allow that (although some manufacturers have looked the other way before) via unprotected analog connections. We were right, sort of. Even after the software upgrade this fall, via component cables, the Xbox 360 will still only upconvert DVDs to 480p, and will play HD DVD movies at a maximum resolution of 1080i. To get 1080p output for movies, you must use a VGA cable, which is not subject to the same copyright restrictions.

It groups CSS and AACS in there. It also says DVD's AND HD DVD can get around it by using VGA, which "which is not subject to the same copyright restrictions.". ICT is part of AACS, which is being discussed here.

Yes, you are correct in that TrueHD and DD+ are products of dolby and DTS is a competitor.

As far as the noticing a discernable difference between TrueHD and it being downsampled to 640 kbps- that would be pretty tough on most mid-level consumer equipment which is what it sounds like you currently are using. This add-on is a very cost effective alternative to the dedicated players currently on the market as many users are not interested in either making a 5.1 analog connection, or do not have a fully audio capable hdmi receiver to accept pcm via hdmi.
I have a setup capable of full analogue 5.1 channels.

I must say I hate using that. It's just a pain.

Now, if I (an AVS Forum HT geek) hate dealing with 6 analogue channels, you can just imagine what J6P thinks.

It says:
It groups CSS and AACS in there. It also says DVD's AND HD DVD can get around it by using VGA, which "which is not subject to the same copyright restrictions.". ICT is part of AACS, which is being discussed here.

Ok, I give this one to you. :)

BTW, during an interview with Microsoft VP in Japan last week(watch.jp), the VP said the addon might not work with PC because of the MMC(multimedia command set). You need the corresponding MMC in the Vista/XP driver to have it work on PC. My read: someone needs an official pc driver for this add-on to play HD DVD on PC.

i just preordered this drive but now im having second thoughts. i have a 26" samsung hdtv, and could really see the difference between hd broadcasts and dvds. will i see the same difference with hd-dvds and dvds? i use the vga cable so my dvds are already being upconverted.

i just preordered this drive but now im having second thoughts. i have a 26" samsung hdtv, and could really see the difference between hd broadcasts and dvds. will i see the same difference with hd-dvds and dvds? i use the vga cable so my dvds are already being upconverted.
YES, YOU WILL SEE A DIFFERENCE. DVD's are 480 P native, HD_DVD's are 1080p native! You will see! You have more resolution to begin with, on HD-DVD. Which is always better than trying to re-create what's not their in the 1st place, with DVD's.

I would go as far to say that HD-DVD looks better than HDTV cable! HDTV cable/dish is compressed so much! HD-DVD blows them away by far. In my opinion!
@ $200 you won't be disappointed with HD-DVD.

good to know, and thanks for the quick response! it seems everyone around here has a huge lcd/plasma/etc, so i wasn't sure how my 26" would perform

Sorry tebling but he's right. I signed up for the email alert too and it never arrived.

Fortunately for me I just happened to me looking thru the site over the weekend and noticed it WAS available for pre-order. Must have just been lucky as I was able to complete the order and the next time I looked to refer one of my friends to the page, it was no longer available.

Yeah, Murphy's Law strikes again - the moment I drop my guard for a few hours over the weekend, the pre-order opens up!

Fortunately, the story has a happy ending as pre-orders are back up on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000JHO4L0/102-4101194-4980926?ie=UTF8), and mine is scheduled for Nov 8 delivery (though we'll see how that actually pans out).

Remember King Kong is bundled and its release date is 11/14, so we are told not to ship any Xbox 360 HD DVD adaptors till 11/13 at the earliest.
-Robert

Can i swing by and pick one up Nov. 7th.... and of course you ship me the empty box on the 13th ?? :p :p

Remember King Kong is bundled and its release date is 11/14, so we are told not to ship any Xbox 360 HD DVD adaptors till 11/13 at the earliest.

-Robert

I'm not sure if the KK release date is relevant. Look at the PS3. They are going to bundle Talledega Nights which is supposed to have a street date about one month after the PS3 release.

I actually put a preorder in through **************** (the company you represent). I hope you are not such a stickler for irrelevant rules that I will get my XBOX 360 HD DVD a full week later than if I had ordered through Amazon.

When I got my RCA DVD player in 1999, with it I got Dances With Wolves, something like six months before it was released.

I immediately sold the DVD for $$$$. :)