Xbox 360 as HD DVD Player: One and Only thread Here

[markrubin]

This is the ONE and ONLY

XBOX as an HD DVD Player Thread: limit discussions to this thread title

Any other XBOX discussions should be posted on the gaming forum: NOT on this forum

Thanks :)

[SBrooks1]

This is the ONE and ONLY

XBOX as an HD DVD Player Thread: limit discussions to this thread title

Any other XBOX discussions should be posted on the gaming forum: NOT on this forum

Thanks :)

Might be a good idea to add "360" to the title ;)

[marcello696]

Might be a good idea to add "360" to the title ;)

stop busting chops Scotty :D

[markrubin]

Might be a good idea to add "360" to the title ;)

How is that?

[SBrooks1]

How is that?

Some people might think you're talking about the original XBox and not the 360. :p

[riekl]

Well its official .. HD-DVD player for the xbox ~ $177 out in November ! Eat your shorts Sony !

[DarkKnight2k4]

Nice.

Is there a hard date ?

I can't wait. I play my 360 on 65" set in my family room. This allows me to get the A2 for my theater in the basement and this drive for my family room !

[metalsaber]

If the price is under $200, I'll be picking it up.

[bases1616]

I have been reading updates on ign.com about the HD-DVD player at the Tokyo Game Conference for the 360 and no official mention of the US price as of yet. Also, Microsoft is saying they will have the 360 supporting 1080p by the end of the year. I am hoping that means that they will finally be releasing some kind of HDMI cable because I don't think component supports 1080p.

[Travisimo]

Isn't that $177 price the Japanese price converted to dollars? If so, then that doesn't necessarily mean it will be that price in NA. More than likely, it will be $199.99 here, but there hasn't been an announcement here yet (probably during the upcoming X06 conference).

EDIT:

I also wanted to add that I have a Toshiba HD-A1 on the way. I was originally going to get the 360 drive, but I changed my mind because of the following reasons:


The HD-A1 has a great SD upscaler whereas the 360 drive can only upscale via VGA (unless they do release an HDMI cable at some point for the 360)
The HD-A1 has analog audio outputs so I can enjoy TrueHD sound
If I use my 360 for games and movies and there is a hardware failure on the 360, I wouldn't be able to play games OR watch HD-DVD's
The 360 HD-DVD playback quality has not been proven yet. Will it be as good as the HD-A1? Will it be faster? Still a lot of questions unanswered.


All that said, if the 360 drive is $200 or less, I might pick one of them up as well as the HD-A1!

[g55555sim]

I have been reading updates on ign.com about the HD-DVD player at the Tokyo Game Conference for the 360 and no official mention of the US price as of yet. Also, Microsoft is saying they will have the 360 supporting 1080p by the end of the year. I am hoping that means that they will finally be releasing some kind of HDMI cable because I don't think component supports 1080p.

1080p over component!! XBox 360 will have a 1080p dashboard update this fall.

[Jann Lee]

1080p over component AND VGA.

[raaj]

1080p over component!! XBox 360 will have a 1080p dashboard update this fall.

I am guessing 1080p upconversion over component is only for games, since AACS doesn't apply to games. The movies might be restricted to 1080i over component with no upconverting (Thanks AACS!), but might only support upconverting the DVDs and outputting HD-DVDs at 1080p over VGA.

[Dahlsim]

I am guessing 1080p upconversion over component is only for games, since AACS doesn't apply to games. The movies might be restricted to 1080i over component with no upconverting (Thanks AACS!), but might only support upconverting the DVDs and outputting HD-DVDs at 1080p over VGA.

As you say I would think 1080p for movies to require VGA (fine for projectors, LCD and some other hdtv's ) although the truth is that 1080i will produce the same result in PQ for the vast majority of televisions.

The main impact of this is for marketing value :rolleyes: Clearly they'll still need HDMI at some point to "keep up" with the PS3 on perception...

[chap]

They actually only announced Japanese info. They still have yet to announce an American street date (which really bothers me. Yes I know its a Japanese trade show but you MUST know when you are going to release in NA by now). For all we know they could just release all there units in Japan, and we may not get any till next year. I doubt it, but you never know.

The other thing that I am still wondering about is the price. Its about $177 there, but there core system is also only $250 with a game while ours is $300 with nothing. Of course we coudl get a price reduction soon also if we are lucky.

[Assayer]

Do the component & VGA video amplifiers actually have enough frequency range to take advantage of 1080p? Ok, so they upgraded the software to switch the DACs at 1080p, but will we actually see the higher frequency content in the signals?

[govschmo]

I hope they bundle this dashboard update with the player as well. Not everyone has live.

[WilliamR]

So, if I use VGA on my 360 for this new player, can I leave the VGA connected all the time or do games suffer from quality? Is VGA a step down from component? Will my games look as good on my high def TV? (My TV is 720p not 1080p). Just curious on what I should do because I would like this to also upconvert my SD DVDs and I am in the market for a DVD player but don't want to but an upconverting DVD player and a high def player. Been leaning towards the 360 drive since I have a 360 already. When its released, if it sucks, I'll buy the Toshiba instead.

So, with this VGA, confused, you actually use VGA for high definition (yes my TV has a VGA port). Help, confused, thanks.

[briankmonkey]

Well its official .. HD-DVD player for the xbox ~ $177 out in November ! Eat your shorts Sony !

I hope the price is true and I'd probably pick it up for that. Still hope for HDMI so that the audio isn't crippled.

Hardly eat your shorts Sony though as that still puts it above a PS3 for playing movies in HD. Unles of course there is a price drop on the console.

I'll have both eventually though :)

[micah3sixty]

This is awesome. HD-DVD up to 1080p for ~$200! Can't beat that. The new toshiba A2x will do 1080p but cost $999. From reading I have done on here, Amirm has confirmed that the HD-DVD addon will decode Dolby Digital TrueHD to most likely 5.1 analog outputs which I assume will be part of the HD-DVD addon kit. I am also guessing that the SPDF out will also send a downgraded version of Dolby Digital + like the Toshiba does if you don't use the analog outputs.

I am also excited that the fall update will also enable upscaling DVDs up to 1080p via component cables as well. So long as the quality of this upscaling surpasses my Sony progressive scan DVD player, I'll be happy.

[govschmo]

So, if I use VGA on my 360 for this new player, can I leave the VGA connected all the time or do games suffer from quality? Is VGA a step down from component? Will my games look as good on my high def TV? (My TV is 720p not 1080p). Just curious on what I should do because I would like this to also upconvert my SD DVDs and I am in the market for a DVD player but don't want to but an upconverting DVD player and a high def player. Been leaning towards the 360 drive since I have a 360 already. When its released, if it sucks, I'll buy the Toshiba instead.

So, with this VGA, confused, you actually use VGA for high definition (yes my TV has a VGA port). Help, confused, thanks.
VGA is sharper, some report washed-out colors, others say beautful picture in games and video. The last dashboard update was supposed to address the washed-out look in VGA (I think it was sending PC levels in error) and enable upconverting DVDs in VGA. There are threads in the xbox forum with several voicing opinnions on it.

So, yes you could use it for both if desired.

[thepg12]

They actually only announced Japanese info. They still have yet to announce an American street date (which really bothers me. Yes I know its a Japanese trade show but you MUST know when you are going to release in NA by now). For all we know they could just release all there units in Japan, and we may not get any till next year. I doubt it, but you never know.

The other thing that I am still wondering about is the price. Its about $177 there, but there core system is also only $250 with a game while ours is $300 with nothing. Of course we coudl get a price reduction soon also if we are lucky.

They'll probably announce date/price next week at X06. X06 appeals more to Europe and North America.

I hope they bundle this dashboard update with the player as well. Not everyone has live.

If I'm not mistaken, you can get the 360 updates through the internet and just burn them onto a CD/DVD

EDIT: Nevermind, that may only be for 360 backwards compatibility updates

[govschmo]

This is awesome. HD-DVD up to 1080p for ~$200! Can't beat that. The new toshiba A2x will do 1080p but cost $999. From reading I have done on here, Amirm has confirmed that the HD-DVD addon will decode Dolby Digital TrueHD to most likely 5.1 analog outputs which I assume will be part of the HD-DVD addon kit. I am also guessing that the SPDF out will also send a downgraded version of Dolby Digital + like the Toshiba does if you don't use the analog outputs.

I am also excited that the fall update will also enable upscaling DVDs up to 1080p via component cables as well. So long as the quality of this upscaling surpasses my Sony progressive scan DVD player, I'll be happy.
I heard the 360 COULD do it, but still no official word on how the audio would leave the 360. If current cable is used, it would likely be downconverted to optical out.

[govschmo]

They'll probably announce date/price next week at X06. X06 appeals more to Europe and North America.



If I'm not mistaken, you can get the 360 updates through the internet and just burn them onto a CD/DVD
Sadly, only for backwards comp updates for XBOX 1 games. The only option outside live I know of is:
Get a friend with live to use your hardrive and download it. or,
Purchase a game that requires it before it will play. They sometimes have it on the game disc.

Live silver is free and you can get updates, but living in the stix, I am only now getting Comcast digital in the area, and no FIOS or DSL yet.

Thanks for the reply.

[thepg12]

Sadly, only for backwards comp updates for XBOX 1 games. The only option outside live I know of is:
Get a friend with live to use your hardrive and download it. or,
Purchase a game that requires it before it will play. They sometimes have it on the game disc.

Live silver is free and you can get updates, but living in the stix, I am only now getting Comcast digital in the area, and no FIOS or DSL yet.

Thanks for the reply.

Yeah, hopefully they work out something for people in a similar situation as you.

[lynesjc]

This will be the cheapest way to get 1080p HD DVD and Dolby TruHD, bar none.

Not sure about the 1080p dvd claims. That's against DVD spec from what I know. (Doing it over analog).

[necrolop]

Your rig will finally benefit by pushing the full 60 megapixels per second of visuals to your compatible HDTV

Read the Press release. he states "60 Mega Pixels per second"

720p60 = 60 mp/s
1080i60 = 60 mp/s
1080p30 = 60mp/s

BUT

1080p60= 120mp/s

Am I missing something here? In his statement he then states that the 360 will NOT do 1080p. If there is indeed 1080p output, Im sure it will be pullup for movies, probably not games.

[FreeBaGeL]

Am I think only one that thinks this is silly? What the heck is the need for this thread?

This entire forum is dedicated to HD DVD players, of which right now there is basically one or two (if you differentiate between the A1 and the XA1), and one officially announced one on the immediate horizon and we're going to take one of the two or three there are and relegate it to one thread? Why don't we just go ahead and make a seperate thread for the A1 since there's a bazillion posts about it and this entire forum can be made up of two threads?

I count 22 posts about the A1/XA1 on the front page of this forum and 3 about the 360 player. Why the need for this?

[Mach1_8]

I count 22 posts about the A1/XA1 on the front page of this forum and 3 about the 360 player. Why the need for this?

Ummm...why not? Are you worried about taking up too much space? :rolleyes:

[pasemp]

Right now I have an Intercooler hooked up to my 360 and the whole setup is just too loud for most movies. I'm excited by the prospect of this addon at this price, so much so that it's made my hunt for an upscaling dvd player moot for the time being, but, I'd consider this drive less than ideal if the noise issues persist.

[Dahlsim]

So, if I use VGA on my 360 for this new player, can I leave the VGA connected all the time or do games suffer from quality? Is VGA a step down from component? Will my games look as good on my high def TV? (My TV is 720p not 1080p). Just curious on what I should do because I would like this to also upconvert my SD DVDs and I am in the market for a DVD player but don't want to but an upconverting DVD player and a high def player. Been leaning towards the 360 drive since I have a 360 already. When its released, if it sucks, I'll buy the Toshiba instead.

So, with this VGA, confused, you actually use VGA for high definition (yes my TV has a VGA port). Help, confused, thanks.

In theory, VGA should be just a bit better in terms of the color signal but in reality it depends on the VGA vs the Component inputs on your display so you have to try it out for yourself.

Over VGA 360 will upscale your regular dvds, over component it will not due to dvd license restrictions.

[nataraj]

Live silver is free and you can get updates, but living in the stix, I am only now getting Comcast digital in the area, and no FIOS or DSL yet.

I'm curious. Do you not have an internet connection at all or don't have broadband ? Doesn't live work over dial up ?

[HD_or_Bust]

My 2 cents..

Decided to upgrade to 360 on the day the PS3 comes out. Not a huge gamer..have about 20 XBOX titles I guess. Still I thought this might be my chance for an additional pro HD-DVD statement. Of course I'll have to get the HD add-on too.

Cheers.

[mboojigga]

I'm curious. Do you not have an internet connection at all or don't have broadband ? Doesn't live work over dial up ?


Live has always been broadband only since day one with the XBOX. You are thinking of the PS2

[DVDoctor]

Now if Micosoft will only announce that you can connect the xbox 360 add on HD DVD Drive to your pc and add the player software AND if you have the right graphics card connected to your hd tv, then Sony will really be in trouble. Not only would Microsoft be selling into the Xbox 360 5 million plus market but tens millions of PC's

The sub 200 dollar price will definitely put the pressure on Sony

John

[mafoo]

From what I've read the 1080p output is for games only (and yes they'll slow down just like PC gaming). The HD DVD connects to Xbox via USB, and I suspect you'll likely get at best 720p output for unprotected content. It wouldn't surprise me if most content (protected), will downscale on the output to XBox and subsequently to TV at 480p. This is what you get without HDCP/HDMI.

[mchuckp]

Right now I have an Intercooler hooked up to my 360 and the whole setup is just too loud for most movies. I'm excited by the prospect of this addon at this price, so much so that it's made my hunt for an upscaling dvd player moot for the time being, but, I'd consider this drive less than ideal if the noise issues persist.

This is one reason I opted for the XA1. I don't know if it is just my 360, but in my opinion, the 360 is too loud for movies. Maybe it will play quieter during HD-DVD playback since it's own drive is not running. I had my 360 replaced once under warranty. I swear my first one wasn't as loud as this one. I've debated calling support and seeing about the fan noise.

Other than that, my 360 has been awesome!!!

[SBrooks1]

From what I've read the 1080p output is for games only (and yes they'll slow down just like PC gaming). The HD DVD connects to Xbox via USB, and I suspect you'll likely get at best 720p output for unprotected content. It wouldn't surprise me if most content (protected), will downscale on the output to XBox and subsequently to TV at 480p. This is what you get without HDCP/HDMI.

HD-DVD movies will output at 1080p.....

Right now there is a big question of HDMI connectivity -- an alternative to component connections it's an all-digital audio/video interface capable of transmitting uncompressed streams -- Microsoft said they have nothing to announce, but are considering the possibility.

We pressed this issue and asked if Microsoft is concerned about the fact that the Image Constraint Toke (ICT) component of HDCP/AACS copy-protection won't work over component video connections, which could make the X360 HD-DVD drive useless sometime in the future if the copy-protection scheme is fully implemented in HD-DVDs.

Microsoft replied via email:

"The image constraint token feature of AACS is an optional flag for the [motion picture] studios and several have publicly stated they have no plans to invoke [the copy-protection flags]. Therefore, the copy protection scheme is fully implemented in both HD DVD and Blu-ray today.

"We [Microsoft Corporation] do not see the absence of HDMI/HDCP as an issue over the lifetime of this generation of [the X360] console. HDMI/HDCP is still a very new interface and until it is supported broadly across the CE and PC industries and by consumers on a wide enough scale to be considered a standard, we don't expect anyone to impede content flow over non-HDMI devices (re: invoke the ICT)."

One Microsoft rep told us that "Let us [Microsoft] worry about that. The consumer shouldn't have to worry about that!"

Until we are actually able to plug it in and power it up that's all we know about this handy little peripheral. If you're an X360 owner and want to play HD-DVD movies this winter Microsoft seems to have designed the smartest and cheapest way to do just that.

http://gear.ign.com/articles/733/733328p1.html

[strawberry]

HD-DVD movies will output at 1080p.....

No- the article you've posted is lipservice- it's a tapdance around the real subject in question, which has nothing to do with ICT. The broader AACS spec disallows anything beyond 1080i/60 over an analog connection regardless of whether ICT is turned on or off. This is already established and in place. If it were ICT that we were worried about, we'd be talking about dowsampling the image to 960x540 over analog connections, not 1080i/60.

This thread covers this topic in much more detail: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=675595

[micah3sixty]

No- the article you've posted is lipservice- it's a tapdance around the real subject in question, which has nothing to do with ICT. The broader AACS spec disallows anything beyond 1080i/60 over an analog connection regardless of whether ICT is turned on or off. This is already established and in place. If it were ICT that we were worried about, we'd be talking about dowsampling the image to 960x540 over analog connections, not 1080i/60.

This thread covers this topic in much more detail: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=675595

Than how do you explain all of the Toshiba A1 owners sending HD-DVD signals at 1080i/720p over component cables? I have heard that DVD's can't be upconverted except over HDMI but maybe microsoft paid their way to not follow that spec since the fall update is supposed to allow DVDs to also be upconverted over component to 1080p/1080i/720p.

[strawberry]

Than how do you explain all of the Toshiba A1 owners sending HD-DVD signals at 1080i/720p over component cables?

Huh?

1080i and 720p are allowed over analog per AACS spec- it's 1080p that isn't.

[Brian M]

September 20, 2006 - According to an official release by Microsoft at its Tokyo Game Show 2006 press briefing, the Xbox 360 will be able to support 1080p games and videos. According to the press release, the fall update will usher in the upgraded resolution capability.



"[Microsoft's] fall software update, scheduled for release later this year, will allow all Xbox 360 consoles around the world to output game and movie content in 1080p resolution."

According to representatives from Microsoft, the update will allow for all existing X360 titles to be upscaled to 1080p. The Xbox 360 HD-DVD player will not be required for 1080p playback, since the update will be available through Xbox Live. However, those who purchase the player when it releases will get an installation disc with the update on it.

Which games will be released in the future that will support the higher resolution is still unannounced. We were told by Microsoft's PR company, "As with all Xbox 360 games, we've leave it up to the discretion of the developer to decide how best they'd like their games to be delivered to consumers."

1080p is a visual upgrade over the Xbox 360's current maximum resolution output of 1080i, or 1920 by 1080 interlaced. We'll update as more details become available.

[Linux23]

Well, how many HDTV's support 1080P over component?

[DigitalfreakNYC]

If the price is under $200, I'll be picking it up.

I'm betting $150. Everything is more expensive in Japan and we've been hearing rumors about MS doing thing to hit this one out of the park. That would be a great price to do it.

[strawberry]

September 20, 2006 - According to an official release by Microsoft at its Tokyo Game Show 2006 press briefing, the Xbox 360 will be able to support 1080p games and videos. According to the press release, the fall update will usher in the upgraded resolution capability.



"[Microsoft's] fall software update, scheduled for release later this year, will allow all Xbox 360 consoles around the world to output game and movie content in 1080p resolution."

According to representatives from Microsoft, the update will allow for all existing X360 titles to be upscaled to 1080p. The Xbox 360 HD-DVD player will not be required for 1080p playback, since the update will be available through Xbox Live. However, those who purchase the player when it releases will get an installation disc with the update on it.

Which games will be released in the future that will support the higher resolution is still unannounced. We were told by Microsoft's PR company, "As with all Xbox 360 games, we've leave it up to the discretion of the developer to decide how best they'd like their games to be delivered to consumers."

1080p is a visual upgrade over the Xbox 360's current maximum resolution output of 1080i, or 1920 by 1080 interlaced. We'll update as more details become available.

Look very carefully at how this is worded. Nowhere does it say that you'll see 1080p output for the HD DVD player- it says you'll get it for "games and movie content." "Movie content" could simply mean XBL video downloads and/or Media Center content from your PC. And, of course, you will get 1080p output over VGA- so it's not technically incorrect for an MS rep to say that the 360's HD DVD add-on will output at 1080p- it just gives you an incomplete picture of reality.

I don't know how else to put it. I've already provided a link to a very detailed thread that covers this subject on this very forum. AACS does not allow for 1080p output over analog connections. The HD DVD drive for the 360 will have to comply with AACS standards.

What else needs to be said?

[micah3sixty]

When it comes down to it, 1080p doesn't really matter to me and wont for a long time. At least this addon will get me into HD-DVD at a cheap cost and put my 720p/1080i Panasonic AE900 projector to good home theater use on top of the game and xbl use it already gets and the fall update will give me a free upconverting DVD player. No need to druel after the Oppo anymore.

[Ja Phule]

Video of 360 HD DVD playing Fast & Furious 3 Tokyo Drift. Shows iHD (or should I say HDi) action along with PiP action.

http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/clips/clips-xbox-360-hddvd-in-action-202018.php

I'm guessing the xbox360 will also output 1080p via HDMI when the revised 360 (still no hd dvd internal) comes out. I'm guessing we won't hear anything until CES...but that's my guess. :)

[g55555sim]

They actually only announced Japanese info. They still have yet to announce an American street date (which really bothers me. Yes I know its a Japanese trade show but you MUST know when you are going to release in NA by now). For all we know they could just release all there units in Japan, and we may not get any till next year. I doubt it, but you never know.

The other thing that I am still wondering about is the price. Its about $177 there, but there core system is also only $250 with a game while ours is $300 with nothing. Of course we coudl get a price reduction soon also if we are lucky.


hmm i suspect the american street date to be 17 Nov (to explain why Endgadget announce a "wrong date" for Japan launch after an interview with the XBox 360 people)". Endgadget announced 17 Nov for Japan launch then Reuter announced that its 22 Nov. Maybe Endgadget was mistakenly given the wrong date !!!! :D

Now if Micosoft will only announce that you can connect the xbox 360 add on HD DVD Drive to your pc and add the player software AND if you have the right graphics card connected to your hd tv, then Sony will really be in trouble. Not only would Microsoft be selling into the Xbox 360 5 million plus market but tens millions of PC's

The sub 200 dollar price will definitely put the pressure on Sony

John

It has been widely reported that the HD DVD add on is compatible with XP Media Center Edition. I dunno whether the whole XBox 360 compatible with XP Media Center therefor, the Add On will also be compatible or that a standalone HD DVD add on would also be compatible with XP Media Center.

anyhow if its priced at $170, it will create 'impulsive' buy where people are already saying that they intend to the the add on just to stripe the HD DVD drive to a build HTPC.

The question is now HOW MANY units MS intend to put in the market at launch and till eoy and by March 2007. AmirM mentioned in several occasions that XBox 360 Add On, Toshiba and PS3 will lead in term of hardware number.

[ctakim]

Why is the launch only announced in Japan? The 360 has a small presence in Japan where it is a very distant second (third?) to the PS2. I'm wondering if the US launch is going to occur at a similar time but it is just not announced yet, or if they are deliberately releasing the HD DVD add on in a small market that will not cannabilize diodes for dedicated HD DVD players in the rest of the world. The benefit is that an HD DVD 360 release somewhere offers a counter argument to the PS3 release, which if we believe current reports will be available in very limited quantity in November. Is this just a marketing/PR move?

[seanb61]

Why is the launch only announced in Japan? The 360 has a small presence in Japan where it is a very distant second (third?) to the PS2. I'm wondering if the US launch is going to occur at a similar time but it is just not announced yet, or if they are deliberately releasing the HD DVD add on in a small market that will not cannabilize diodes for dedicated HD DVD players in the rest of the world. The benefit is that an HD DVD 360 release somewhere offers a counter argument to the PS3 release, which if we believe current reports will be available in very limited quantity in November. Is this just a marketing/PR move?

MSFT will announce deatails for the North American and European launch next week at X06.

[ctakim]

MSFT will announce deatails for the North American and European launch next week at X06.

Great news, thanks!

[Butler5]

Read the Press release. he states "60 Mega Pixels per second"

720p60 = 60 mp/s
1080i60 = 60 mp/s
1080p30 = 60mp/s

BUT

1080p60= 120mp/s

Am I missing something here? In his statement he then states that the 360 will NOT do 1080p. If there is indeed 1080p output, Im sure it will be pullup for movies, probably not games.


Dude......How many threads are you going to post this in........You look it up for yourself!!

[9158]

From the industry insiders thread:

1080p is supported over VGA for DVD, HD DVD and gaming output. And yes, AACS does allow 1080p over VGA (classified under authorized "computer monitor outputs").

For component, you get gaming up to 1080p, and 1080i for HD DVD. DVD only works at 480p over this connection. The latter two are due to restrictions in DVD CCA and AACS rules for DVD and HD DVD playback respectively.

On gaming, the machine supports both scaling of 720p games to 1080p, and native games running at 1080p resolution. It is up to game developers to decide which way to go.

[nataraj]

Well, how many HDTV's support 1080P over component?

Quite a few projectors do. For eg panny ae900 supports all these over component.

YPBPR signals: 525i (480i), 525p (480p), 625i (576i),
625p (576p), 1 125 (1 080)/60i,
1 125 (1 080)/50i, 1 125 (1 080)/24p,
750 (720)/60p, 750 (720)/50p

[nataraj]

Live has always been broadband only since day one with the XBOX. You are thinking of the PS2

While dialup is not officially supported, nothing stops you from connecting your pc / lan to internet over dialup and then access live from xbox. Ofcourse you can't game much because of lag & bandwidth, but for firmware updates it should work. I've not done this personally but if you seach "xbox live dialup" you will see a lot of people have done this.

[Dahlsim]

Quite a few projectors do. For eg panny ae900 supports all these over component.

I know projectors tend to support VGA anyway since often they are used for PC connections so the 360 1080p will be supported there. The VGA did add little better PQ and sd dvd upscaling on my own dlp projector.

I know some friends use PC's / VGA on their microdisplay HDTV's as well.

With standar dvd upscaling and now true 1080p output it appears that VGA might be now the optimal connection for Xbox 360 (or base Model PS3?). Do most 1080p capable HDTV's support a VGA connection or hdmi/component only?

[nataraj]

Do most 1080p capable HDTV's support a VGA connection or hdmi/component only?

I think most of the HDTVs do have a VGA connection - whether or not they support 1080p. Initial reports on last year's Samsung models were that they supported 1080p input via VGA/component but not thr' HDMI.

[OconRecon]

Isn't that $177 price the Japanese price converted to dollars? If so, then that doesn't necessarily mean it will be that price in NA. More than likely, it will be $199.99 here, but there hasn't been an announcement here yet (probably during the upcoming X06 conference).

EDIT:

I also wanted to add that I have a Toshiba HD-A1 on the way. I was originally going to get the 360 drive, but I changed my mind because of the following reasons:


The HD-A1 has a great SD upscaler whereas the 360 drive can only upscale via VGA (unless they do release an HDMI cable at some point for the 360)
The HD-A1 has analog audio outputs so I can enjoy TrueHD sound
If I use my 360 for games and movies and there is a hardware failure on the 360, I wouldn't be able to play games OR watch HD-DVD's
The 360 HD-DVD playback quality has not been proven yet. Will it be as good as the HD-A1? Will it be faster? Still a lot of questions unanswered.


All that said, if the 360 drive is $200 or less, I might pick one of them up as well as the HD-A1!

Those are reasons, but I'm thinking they're kind of soft ones. And like you said, for the price, might just have to pick one up.

If you get both, I'd really like to see a post on how a side by side comparison is from your standpoint.

[Travisimo]

Those are reasons, but I'm thinking they're kind of soft ones. And like you said, for the price, might just have to pick one up.

If you get both, I'd really like to see a post on how a side by side comparison is from your standpoint.

Yeah, if I get both I'll definitely post about any differences I see/hear. If the 360 drive comes in at $200 or less here, I'll most likely get it.

[rconn2]

Do most 1080p capable HDTV's support a VGA connection or hdmi/component only?HDMI is becoming the standard 1080p connection; only a very few sets support 1080p VGA (and the Samsung's don't do true 1080p input, but chop and overscan). The forthcoming 1080p Sharps don't do 1080p VGA; nor does the just released Sony V2500's, but the XBR2/3's do.

A digital 1080p HDMI (which by HDMI's specs, will also support DVI->HDMI) is a must have on any 1080p hdtv. I'd even avoid a purchase of a new graphics card that didn't have an HDMI, because a DVI likely won't support HDCP -- it can but few do;whereas HDMI always does.

Also having an analog 1080p input is a nice-to-have (because why not... can't hurt to have extra inputs), but it's really becoming a legacy connection. And with DRM and HDCP, an analog 1080p can't be counted on to work as 1080p w/ 1080p sources in the future.

That MS chose to release an xbox 360 add-on that supports 1080p only on analog outputs is just plain weird; contrary to where things are moving; and which will only benefit a small subset (owners of sets that can handle 1080p VGA or component) of a small subset (owners of 1080p sets). And since games aren't going to be 1080p for some time... those benefits shrink to the empty set. It's one of the silliest, most irrelevant releases I've come across. By it's ridiculous nature, it only draws attention to an unfavorable comparison w/ the ps3 and br. (and I'm not anti hd-dvd -- will get an A2 -- or a br fan).

[rktcyntst]

Why is the launch only announced in Japan? The 360 has a small presence in Japan where it is a very distant second (third?) to the PS2. I'm wondering if the US launch is going to occur at a similar time but it is just not announced yet, or if they are deliberately releasing the HD DVD add on in a small market that will not cannabilize diodes for dedicated HD DVD players in the rest of the world. The benefit is that an HD DVD 360 release somewhere offers a counter argument to the PS3 release, which if we believe current reports will be available in very limited quantity in November. Is this just a marketing/PR move?

It's due to the fact that MS is showing off their wares at the Tokyo Game Show (TGS) that's going on from 9/22-9/24. Focus of that show is gaming in JP.

As already mentioned, X06 should yield additional info for the rest of us!

[gatti-man]

why does 1080p matter? I thought we have long established that for most people (ie sets under 60") 1080i and p are indestinguishable. also keep in mind the people that this is marketed to probably don't have the greatest gear. so why are we splitting hairs over this? if anything I think ms is falling into the sony low road of hyping things that don't even matter or aren't really true yet can be in a skued way.

[g55555sim]

Why is the launch only announced in Japan? The 360 has a small presence in Japan where it is a very distant second (third?) to the PS2. I'm wondering if the US launch is going to occur at a similar time but it is just not announced yet, or if they are deliberately releasing the HD DVD add on in a small market that will not cannabilize diodes for dedicated HD DVD players in the rest of the world. The benefit is that an HD DVD 360 release somewhere offers a counter argument to the PS3 release, which if we believe current reports will be available in very limited quantity in November. Is this just a marketing/PR move?

to make the japanese feel important !! :p

[FirebirdTN]

...That MS chose to release an xbox 360 add-on that supports 1080p only on analog outputs is just plain weird; contrary to where things are moving; and which will only benefit a small subset (owners of sets that can handle 1080p VGA or component) of a small subset (owners of 1080p sets). And since games aren't going to be 1080p for some time... those benefits shrink to the empty set. It's one of the silliest, most irrelevant releases I've come across. By it's ridiculous nature, it only draws attention to an unfavorable comparison w/ the ps3 and br. (and I'm not anti hd-dvd -- will get an A2 -- or a br fan).

Thats pretty naive. While I also believe MS is driving their own hype machine reguarding 1080p, as an owner of a 720p native display and a tight budget, I for one will be picking this product up. I disagree that this product only benefits "a small subset of a small subset of HDTV owners". That is clearly inaccurate. It would be more accurate to say that 1080P over VGA only benefits a small subset of a small subset of owners. The HDDVD drive addon itself will benefit a lot of folks for sure, especially those like me who already happen to have an Xbox360 and a HDTV with a VGA input. Or even if they do not own an HDTV at all, they can still reap the benfits of the addon with an old extra PC monitor.

-Alan

[Dahlsim]

why does 1080p matter? I thought we have long established that for most people (ie sets under 60") 1080i and p are indestinguishable. also keep in mind the people that this is marketed to probably don't have the greatest gear. so why are we splitting hairs over this? if anything I think ms is falling into the sony low road of hyping things that don't even matter or aren't really true yet can be in a skued way.


The perception is already out in the market on the superiority of 1080p over 1080i. There is no way that technical explanations of how 1080i will usually produce the same exact PQ as 1080p will get across to most consumer.

The mantra in the marketplace has been "hd-dvd/xbox is 1080i while blu-ray/ps3 is 1080p", period. It's impossible to counter that with technical explanations. MS/Toshiba is forced to try to keep pace.

No doubt somewhere in Redmond (or such) furious work is being done to get HDMI going on 360's to offset the next marketing bullet point.

[g55555sim]

The perception is already out in the market on the superiority of 1080p over 1080i. There is no way that technical explanations of how 1080i will usually produce the same exact PQ as 1080p will get across to most consumer.

The mantra in the marketplace has been "hd-dvd/xbox is 1080i while blu-ray/ps3 is 1080p", period. It's impossible to counter that with technical explanations. MS/Toshiba is forced to try to keep pace.

No doubt somewhere in Redmond (or such) furious work is being done to get HDMI going on 360's to offset the next marketing bullet point.

I disagree. Education would make over priced 1080p products look "silly". XBox 360 add on will do 1080p rendering. Sony tried immediately (after MS' 360 1080p support announcement) to play down the support saying that its not 1080p native. MS hit back saying XBox 360 will render 1080p both both game and movies after their fall dashboard update.

basically i am amazed that the XBox 360 hardware shipped since last year are capable of rendering 1080p without hardware update. The whole thing needed to render 1080p is in the box all this while others are still strugling to get their 1080p products to the market... !!

[marcello696]

Looking at what the 360 has under the hood the triple core processer has more than enough horsepower to support 1080p and I've thought that since day one. Microsoft knew all along they would be supporting 1080p and simply used it as an ace in the sleeve to use against Sony who has told everyone that 1080p is True HD.....well now I guess Microsoft has True HD as well.

[raaj]

Looking at what the 360 has under the hood the triple core processer has more than enough horsepower to support 1080p and I've thought that since day one. Microsoft knew all along they would be supporting 1080p and simply used it as an ace in the sleeve to use against Sony who has told everyone that 1080p is True HD.....well now I guess Microsoft has True HD as well.

It's not the triple-core processor (the CPU) that decides 1080p.. it is the amount of video memory and the GPU that decides if a console can do 1080p and using what complexity of games. I don't think either Xbox360 or PS3 can render games like Crysis at 1080p.

P.S. I am a MS fan (not a 'fanboy') and have an Xbox and an Xbox360, but I don't think the 360 could pull off many complex games at 1080p.

[briankmonkey]

lossless audio for games? a total non point. same with 1080p for games as the only tite slated for 1080p that is up and running is gthd which is a ps2 port. what a joke.
------

...why does 1080p matter? I thought we have long established that for most people (ie sets under 60") 1080i and p are indestinguishable. also keep in mind the people that this is marketed to probably don't have the greatest gear. so why are we splitting hairs over this? if anything I think ms is falling into the sony low road of hyping things that don't even matter or aren't really true yet can be in a skued way.

already 3 1080p games for the PS3.. It is very true :D

Lair
Virtua Tennis 3
Gran Turismo PS3

Here is snippet for lair :p

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/733/733921p5.html

IGN: What are your thoughts on 1080p? You're rendering some stuff out at that resolution now, do you think it's necessary for games to be standardized as 1080p and is it doable?

Eggebrecht: First of all, we are not only rendering some part of Lair in 1080p. The whole game is in 1080p native, from front-end to all in-game bits.

We absolutely love 1080p because of the detail that you can see. When we went up from 720 to 1080 I was blown away how much more of the artwork was visible. We started out being true 720p proponents, but since switching over to true 1080p via HDMI a few months ago I can't go back.
Lair is not upscaling or cheating to get to 1080p, we are natively running at the full 1920x1080 progressive resolution. Earlier this year we were quite skeptical if that would be possible, but the final kits really were a revelation in terms of power. Sony delivered what they promised and after a bit of tweaking we had the game up-and running. One thing that did help us was that our engine always was heavily reliant on data streaming, so the larger frame buffer memory never was an issue. By now half of our staff has 1080p monitors, and believe me, the 720 guys are jealous.

http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/733/733921/lair-20060921042448568.jpg

[tsb]

hopefully the recent ps3 news will force ms to make a 360 with internal hd dvd and hdmi 1.3

[marcello696]

It's not the triple-core processor (the CPU) that decides 1080p.. it is the amount of video memory and the GPU that decides if a console can do 1080p and using what complexity of games. I don't think either Xbox360 or PS3 can render games like Crysis at 1080p.

P.S. I am a MS fan (not a 'fanboy') and have an Xbox and an Xbox360, but I don't think the 360 could pull off many complex games at 1080p.

I stand corrected thanks for the input

[tallen94]

already 3 1080p games for the PS3.. It is very true :D

Lair
Virtua Tennis 3
Gran Turismo PS3


So? I don't mean to be rude, but the 360 already has lots of games that natively render at 1920x1080. They will automatically become "1080P" the second MS puts out their dashboard update. You see, developers don't specify "1080i" or "1080p" when making a game, they specify a framebuffer size to natively render the game at, and the video scaler determines what goes out the video port. If the user has selected 1080i and the game only supports 1280x720 (again, there is no "I" or "P" as far as the game is concerned), the scaler takes care of that. Now in theory the developer could only ever support a 1920x1080 framebuffer the scaler would scale it down to 720P or 480i or whatever, but that is unlikely.
Some games that already support "1080P" (just looking at games near my desk)
Call of Duty 2
Dead or Alive 4
Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

Many (perhaps most) Xbox Live Arcade titles support 1920x1080. They also support 4:3 High-def modes via the VGA output which is not surprising since many XBLA games have PC origins and their developers are used to supporting a variety of resolutions.
I'd guess that Virtual Tennis 3 for the 360 will also since it is much easier to get 1920x1080 to run at an acceptable rate on the 360 than on the PS3. I know because I make cross platform console games for a living and have done next gen games. If you look in the GT4 and Lair game shots (not the pre-rendered video stills, but the actual in-game shots with the HUD) you'll see a lot of aliasing. The PS3 doesn't have a nearly-free anti-aliasing solution like the 360 (anti-aliasing is mandatory on the 360, btw), so you'll not likely see anti-aliasing any PS3 1080 games except maybe some their Mahjong titles. Given that 1280x720 with anti-aliasing looks as good if not better (engineers love to argue this point) than 1920x1080 without, if anti-aliasing is not an option (and it is horribly expensive on the PS3's RSX), they will go for 1280x720 since you get back more precious VRAM. For me, "1080P" with regards to PS3 games is something of a dubious bullet-point. Not quite "blast processing" but it certainly isn't the Holy Grail either.

[briankmonkey]

So? I don't mean to be rude, but the 360 already has lots of games that natively render at 1920x1080. They will automatically become "1080P" the second MS puts out their dashboard update. You see, developers don't specify "1080i" or "1080p" when making a game, they specify a framebuffer size to natively render the game at, and the video scaler determines what goes out the video port. If the user has selected 1080i and the game only supports 1280x720 (again, there is no "I" or "P" as far as the game is concerned), the scaler takes care of that. Now in theory the developer could only ever support a 1920x1080 framebuffer the scaler would scale it down to 720P or 480i or whatever, but that is unlikely.
Some games that already support "1080P" (just looking at games near my desk)
Call of Duty 2
Dead or Alive 4
Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

Many (perhaps most) Xbox Live Arcade titles support 1920x1080. They also support 4:3 High-def modes via the VGA output which is not surprising since many XBLA games have PC origins and their developers are used to supporting a variety of resolutions.
I'd guess that Virtual Tennis 3 for the 360 will also since it is much easier to get 1920x1080 to run at an acceptable rate on the 360 than on the PS3. I know because I make cross platform console games for a living and have done next gen games. If you look in the GT4 and Lair game shots (not the pre-rendered video stills, but the actual in-game shots with the HUD) you'll see a lot of aliasing. The PS3 doesn't have a nearly-free anti-aliasing solution like the 360 (anti-aliasing is mandatory on the 360, btw), so you'll not likely see anti-aliasing any PS3 1080 games except maybe some their Mahjong titles.

not to be rude, but most of the info you posted isn't true.

[HPforMe]

hopefully the recent ps3 news will force ms to make a 360 with internal hd dvd and hdmi 1.3

Why, when most people buying these gaming systems have component inputs? The base of HDMI input tvs is quite small compared to those who have HD sets with component inputs. And there is no difference in quality between the current incarnation of HDMI and the current sets using HDMI or component.

[tsb]

Some of us buy for the future, not for the past.

[FreeBaGeL]

Ummm...why not? Are you worried about taking up too much space? :rolleyes:

Um...the opposite. I'm not sure if you misread my post (which I though was pretty clear) or what but I was clearly indicating that I didn't think there was a need for a "one and only xbox 360 add-on" thread as the 360 add-on was only taking up a small part of the forum compared to other players and now we just have a mess of questions and articles thrown into one jumbled, disorganized thread when there really was absolutely no need for it.

[oshodi]

hopefully the recent ps3 news will force ms to make a 360 with internal hd dvd and hdmi 1.3
They will! They just didn't want the info leaking out like it did, so they denied it!

Much like when the G2 players info was leaked, and they likewise killed it as well! But they still released it didn't they?

It's coming out soon. ;)

[briankmonkey]

Not to be rude my self but the poster you replied to seemed to have some info to support his point can you explain what he was incorrect about or are you just a sony troll?

Not sure what sony has to do with it, but here you go:

"I don't mean to be rude, but the 360 already has lots of games that natively render at 1920x1080"

actually none at this point availabe for consumers. If I'm wrong correct me with some evidence.


They will automatically become "1080P" the second MS puts out their dashboard update.

Please explain. I'd be surprised if anybody thought this was true. Upscaled is not the same as rendered 1080p, not even remotely close.


Some games that already support "1080P" (just looking at games near my desk)
Call of Duty 2
Dead or Alive 4
Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

Many (perhaps most) Xbox Live Arcade titles support 1920x1080.

none of these currently support 1080p. If I'm wrong, prove it and back it up.

[liquidnw]

Not sure what sony has to do with it, but here you go:



actually none at this point availabe for consumers. If I'm wrong correct me with some evidence.



Please explain. I'd be surprised if anybody thought this was true. Upscaled is not the same as rendered 1080p, not even remotely close.




none of these currently support 1080p. If I'm wrong, prove it and back it up.

I didn't say he was right but its kind of trolly ,if thats a word, to simply say uh your wrong. Personally I don't belive that any current xbox games will render at 1080p.

[briankmonkey]

Originally Posted by gatti-man
lossless audio for games? a total non point. same with 1080p for games as the only tite slated for 1080p that is up and running is gthd which is a ps2 port. what a joke.
------

...why does 1080p matter? I thought we have long established that for most people (ie sets under 60") 1080i and p are indestinguishable. also keep in mind the people that this is marketed to probably don't have the greatest gear. so why are we splitting hairs over this? if anything I think ms is falling into the sony low road of hyping things that don't even matter or aren't really true yet can be in a skued way.

Gatti-man, I was wrong, my apologies :o

"TGS 2006: Six 1080p Games Playable on PS3 " (http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3153941)

[villa]

I don't care much about 1080p (since my hdtv supports only 1080i) but what about true hd and dolby digital plus, does anybody knows if the sound is gonna be downgraded to dts via optical? or there's gonna be some kind of analogue out support?

[nataraj]

I think a lot of the posts here have nothing to do with HD DVD add on for xbox360. Can they be deleted ?

[tsd2005]

Not sure what sony has to do with it, but here you go:



actually none at this point availabe for consumers. If I'm wrong correct me with some evidence.



Please explain. I'd be surprised if anybody thought this was true. Upscaled is not the same as rendered 1080p, not even remotely close.




none of these currently support 1080p. If I'm wrong, prove it and back it up.

Brian,

An email response from Bethesda says the Oblivion will be 1080p once the update is released and that the original poster was correct. The game was made rendered in 1920x1080.

[g55555sim]

Brian,

An email response from Bethesda says the Oblivion will be 1080p once the update is released and that the original poster was correct. The game was made rendered in 1920x1080.


hmm ... appologies would be nice !! :p

it seems more likely that XBox 360's games will be rendered at 1080p before PS3 hits the market !! And all this while, it was PS3 that hyped 1080p games !! :D

why was MS quite about the ability of XBox 360 doing 1080p and the fact that some of 360 games are rendered in 1080p. Sony were hyping 50GB ROM years before there are out. So are BD-Live and BD-J.

[Dahlsim]

I disagree. Education would make over priced 1080p products look "silly". XBox 360 add on will do 1080p rendering.

Actually it's the software update that will add 1080p rendering, with or without the addon.

Please explain. I'd be surprised if anybody thought this was true. Upscaled is not the same as rendered 1080p, not even remotely close.

none of these currently support 1080p. If I'm wrong, prove it and back it up.

it seems more likely that XBox 360's games will be rendered at 1080p before PS3 hits the market !! And all this while, it was PS3 that hyped 1080p games !!

why was MS quite about the ability of XBox 360 doing 1080p and the fact that some of 360 games are rendered in 1080p. Sony were hyping 50GB ROM years before there are out. So are BD-Live and BD-J.


The problem here, is exactly what I posted earlier which is that understanding the difference between 1080 "i" and 1080 "p" is too much of a technical distinctiion for most consumers to appreciate.

As far 'education', he gave a pretty clear explanation but even a savvy consumer like Brian apparently didn't fully 'get' the poster's original point and therefore is not accurately representing what the poster asserted.

So? I don't mean to be rude, but the 360 already has lots of games that natively render at 1920x1080. They will automatically become "1080P" the second MS puts out their dashboard update.

You see, developers don't specify "1080i" or "1080p" when making a game, they specify a framebuffer size to natively render the game at, and the video scaler determines what goes out the video port.

He is saying that the "p" and "i" are not relevant to the game rendering itself, only the lines of resolution that are to be sent to the frame buffer. So the assertion he's making is that some 360 games are already rendering 1080 lines of vertical resolution x 1920 horizontal pixel.

So in this the case the actual "resolution" of the games are the same for 1080i or 1080p because it is a matter of how the 360 reconstructs and sends what is in the frame buffer, to the display. So when the update is done the same 1080x1920 lines will be sent progressively rather than interlaced and "voila!" 360 will have 1080p games.

BTW, since modern hdtv's pretty much all reconstruct the signal in some "progressive" manner anyway before displaying it (eg. line doubling, de-interlacing) this is why I said the difference between "p" and "i' is more about marketing now then it ever was in the 480p vs 480i days.

This distinction is also hard for consumers to know because 360 games don't list the actual rendering resolution on the box, they only list the supported output resolutions after scaling: 480p/720p/1080i So if a game is 1080i as the poster asserted we all pretty much assume it was rendered at 720 like "all" other 360 games. Evidently this is not the case and that is the poster's point.

Again, this will not fit nicely into a marketing bullet point so MS response is make sure they can say "1080p, true HD" just like the other guy ;)

[nyber]

I hope they bundle this dashboard update with the player as well. Not everyone has live.

Thanks for the feedback...don't worry :)

Interesting that this is concerning being that you do seem to have an internet connection. As others have mentioned Xbox Live Silver is free, however to get system updates you don't even need to have an Xbox Live account. If you try to sign up for Xbox Live w/o the latest update you must accept the latest update before beginning the signup process.

[g55555sim]

The problem here, is exactly what I posted earlier which is that understanding the difference between 1080 "i" and 1080 "p" is too much of a technical distinctiion for most consumers to appreciate.

As far 'education', he gave a pretty clear explanation but even a savvy consumer like Brian apparently didn't fully 'get' the poster's original point and therefore is not accurately representing what the poster asserted.

He is saying that the "p" and "i" are not relevant to the game rendering itself, only the lines of resolution that are to be sent to the frame buffer. So the assertion he's making is that some 360 games are already rendering 1080 lines of vertical resolution x 1920 horizontal pixel.

Again, this will not fit nicely into a marketing bullet point so MS response is make sure they can say "1080p, true HD" just like the other guy ;)

and

You see, developers don't specify "1080i" or "1080p" when making a game, they specify a framebuffer size to natively render the game at, and the video scaler determines what goes out the video port.

strange .. dont PS3 game developers included. So why Sony claim PS3 will do 1080p all this while?

[tsb]

because a few PS3 games are being created in native 1920x1080/60p not just 1920x1080/60i or lower to be converted to 1920x1080/60p by the display or console hardware

[raaj]

because a few PS3 games are being created in native 1920x1080/60p not just 1920x1080/60i or lower to be converted to 1920x1080/60p by the display or console hardware

You might want to holdoff on that claim until the games hit the shelves, and then see if they are still rendered natively at 1080p - and not upscaled at the output from a sub 1080i/p resolution. It is widely believed that both the Xbox360 and the PS3 do not have enough horsepower to render 1080/60p natively with decent FSAA and AF. There are workarounds, but it woul be interesting how fast the developers master these. For now, let's lay off the PR propaganda until a game streets, and we can get framebuffer dumps to give us the native resolution of these games.

[briankmonkey]

Brian,

An email response from Bethesda says the Oblivion will be 1080p once the update is released and that the original poster was correct. The game was made rendered in 1920x1080.

Thanks for the info. Again, I was just wanting some information (hence the correct me if I'm wrong) and hope you didn't take it as a personal attack :)

That is one game though and you said currently (not future) xbox360 has lots of games that render at 1920x1080. Maybe I just haven't seen it but I though MS said most were 720 the "sweet spot". I also am curious as to how all these games will become 1080p with the update, again scaling isn't the same as rendering. So what would happen with something like PGR3 that isn't even rendering at 720p while racing? Will the framerate drop even more? Again, I haven't seen any evidence for a some of the other claims you've made .

[raaj]

Thanks for the info. Again, I was just wanting some information (hence the correct me if I'm wrong) and hope you didn't take it as a personal attack :)

That is one game though and you said currently (not future) xbox360 has lots of games that render at 1920x1080. Maybe I just haven't seen it but I though MS said most were 720 the "sweet spot". I also am curious as to how all these games will become 1080p with the update, again scaling isn't the same as rendering. So what would happen with something like PGR3 that isn't even rendering at 720p while racing? Will the framerate drop even more? Again, I haven't seen any evidence for a some of the other claims you've made .

FWIW, Joystiq also said that DMC4 demo at TGS was running below 720p natively, and I expect this to be the case most of the time, where the games might be rendered at 720p and then upscaled to the output resolution of 1080i or 720p.

And IIRC, PGR3 game engine was set in stone long before the Xbox360 hardware was finalized, and hence they could not rewrite their game engine to make advantage of tiled rendering [required by the 360 to render full 720p/1080i with FSAA], and still make the launch date with the console. I expect PGR4 to take full advantage of 1080 rendering with aroung 2xFSAA and some sort of AF.

[rrhomes]

There needs to be a clear separation between games at 1080p and HD-DVD's at 1080P. To equate that the Xbox 360 has problems ruining games at 1080P so there for it a push for HD-DVD also is just flat out wrong. The only reason the Xbox 360 has problems is because of the graphics Processing Unit trying to keep up with that high of a resolution and appyling all of the graphic processing and tricks wich can take and ungodly amount of processing power to do at 1080P. Where the HD-DVD is just read off the disk and the 1:1 pixels are decoded and placed in their position. It does take some juice to decode the HD-DVD format but the XBOX 360 has more than enough to do so and the out RGB/Component has plenty of bandwith. If there is any reason the 360 has problem with HD-DVD is has nothing to do with processing power whatsoever.

[vurbano]

This is the ONE and ONLY

XBOX as an HD DVD Player Thread: limit discussions to this thread title

Any other XBOX discussions should be posted on the gaming forum: NOT on this forum

Thanks :)
And there will be only one PS3 thread in BD forum also. Correct?

[BulletToothDave]

It looks like AVS forum members opinions are now being taken as facts on the internet. This information below was posted on joystiq.com from a post from amirim.


If your 360 is hooked up via component cables:

Xbox 360 games can be upscaled to 1080p. Titles that run in 1080p natively (none of which currently exist) will also display without a problem.
HD-DVDs will display at 1080i maximum -- you can thank AACS for that.
Normal DVDs will play at 480p. CSS prevents anything higher (though some upscaling DVD players conveniently ignore it).

If your 360 is hooked up via VGA cable:

HD-DVDs, Upscaled DVDs and games can all display at 1080p with no copyright hassles.

If your 360 is hooked up via RF Adapter:

You have bigger problems.


LINK (http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/23/microsofts-1080p-lets-you-read-the-fine-print/)

[g55555sim]

It looks like AVS forum members opinions are now being taken as facts on the internet. This information below was posted on joystiq.com from a post from amirim.



u have no idea who "AmirM" is do u? :D

[ferrisg]

u have no idea who "AmirM" is do u? :D

Hilarious. Includng the responses on joystiq that discount his input. You could at least provide a link (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/amirm/default.mspx) so he can find out.

[FirebirdTN]

It looks like AVS forum members opinions are now being taken as facts on the internet. This information below was posted on joystiq.com from a post from amirim.


If your 360 is hooked up via component cables:

Xbox 360 games can be upscaled to 1080p. Titles that run in 1080p natively (none of which currently exist) will also display without a problem.
HD-DVDs will display at 1080i maximum -- you can thank AACS for that.
Normal DVDs will play at 480p. CSS prevents anything higher (though some upscaling DVD players conveniently ignore it).

If your 360 is hooked up via VGA cable:

HD-DVDs, Upscaled DVDs and games can all display at 1080p with no copyright hassles.

If your 360 is hooked up via RF Adapter:

You have bigger problems.


LINK (http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/23/microsofts-1080p-lets-you-read-the-fine-print/)

Yeah, someone mentioned this very same thing in another HD 360 thread. I posted a response in that thread, but in case you missed it, here it is:

Why all the fuss? Okay so I'm probably one of the few that already have my 360 hooked up via VGA, but...

Why not simply buy the Xbox 360 VGA cable (if your going to dish out $200 for the drive, whats another $50 for the cable), and use a transcoder to turn it to component?

Then you will have full res without copy protection over component connections. An if its truly 1080p (I don't care either way at this time since my set is 720p), then with the purchase of a couple products, mostly by microsoft, you have just done what the content providers didn't want you to be able to do: Have NON copy protected, analog connections of upconverted DVDs and full 1080 resolution for HD DVD. Hey...thanks microsoft!

-Alan

[richard plumb]

Although I have an A1, I'm tempted to pick up an addon for my 360 if its cheap. Then I can move my 360 to the upstairs computer room, hook up via VGA to my 1680x1050 LCD, plug in my headphones and enjoy. I really don't get to play it much downstairs on the big TV due to kids etc, but I can lock myself away upstairs. And if I sit close enough it'll be pretty good :P

[tom_dallas68]

Why all the fuss? Okay so I'm probably one of the few that already have my 360 hooked up via VGA, but...

Why not simply buy the Xbox 360 VGA cable (if your going to dish out $200 for the drive, whats another $50 for the cable), and use a transcoder to turn it to component?

-Alan

I am wondering why there is a such a fuss too. I've seen all kinds of rants on forums complaining about 1080p not being supported over component but nobody is even mentioning the availability of the 360 VGA cable so the rumors are spreading that the 1080p update by microsoft is basically useless and a scam.

[FirebirdTN]

Another thing I find kind of amuzing, is people should take this product for what it is: An inexpensive alternative to those who already own 360s to get into HD DVD. This player isn't meant to best the HD-XA1 I'm sure. I'll probably bet its intended audience is the "bang for the buck" folks.

-Alan

[tom_dallas68]

One thing I am wondering about with the launch of the 360 HD-DVD player is how many units can Microsoft actually produce? I would imagine supplies of the players will be extremely limited since blue laser diodes are in very short supply. Sony and Nichia are the only manufacturers of blue laser diodes and are having huge shortages (on reason for the PS3 delay in Europe). If Sony, who actually manufactures the diodes, has to delay their own console due to diode shortages then how is MS going to be able to make any significant number of players when they are dependant on buying the diodes from Sony and Nichia? I think there will be huge demand for the player but very limited market penetration simply due to limited quantities available.

[nataraj]

One thing I am wondering about with the launch of the 360 HD-DVD player is how many units can Microsoft actually produce? I would imagine supplies of the players will be extremely limited since blue laser diodes are in very short supply. Sony and Nichia are the only manufacturers of blue laser diodes and are having huge shortages (on reason for the PS3 delay in Europe).

This is taking on the proportions of an urban legend.

Sanyo is a big supplier of diodes and can be (are being ?) used in HD DVD drives. Only BD is tied to Sony/Nichia.

[Butler5]

I am wondering why there is a such a fuss too. I've seen all kinds of rants on forums complaining about 1080p not being supported over component but nobody is even mentioning the availability of the 360 VGA cable so the rumors are spreading that the 1080p update by microsoft is basically useless and a scam.


It's not useless or a scam.......Just not the greatest thing without HDMI.....Your display purchase is always the biggest in a multi media set up. So now you have to narrow your choices down to display's that will accept 1080P over VGA, or even have a VGA input. That is becoming rare as HDMI is clearly the standard. That just isn't the way it is supposed to work, the big thing being influenced by the capabilities of the little thing. Never mind the Audio issues you miss out on. MS knows this and I just wish they would say there isn't going to be HDMI. I own a 360 and am an MS supporter with the games, but I am also a realist, in that MS really screwed the immediate and long term pooch with no HDMI......I can understand and am fine with no built in HD-DVD drive, but they could have done HDMI and then with this add on they could have had a system that could stand Toe to Toe on specs with the PS3. I am just getting a little tired of MS downplaying the HDMI. Right now if the PS3 comes out with the bugs worked out and the specs aren't downgraded any further, then yes PS3 has a technological advantage over MS, and I think it will get bigger next year and 3 years from now!

[HorrorScope]

The perception is already out in the market on the superiority of 1080p over 1080i. There is no way that technical explanations of how 1080i will usually produce the same exact PQ as 1080p will get across to most consumer.

Other then telling them "it's virtually the same, come see". The issue is the seller isn't trying to educate them, they are trying to sell them more hardware.

[tom_dallas68]

This is taking on the proportions of an urban legend.

Sanyo is a big supplier of diodes and can be (are being ?) used in HD DVD drives. Only BD is tied to Sony/Nichia.

That's whats so confusing to me. Who manufactures the diodes (Sony, Nichia, Sanyo, Sharp? who else?) and who supplies the diodes to which HD-DVD or blu-ray player makers?

[tom_dallas68]

I own a 360 and am an MS supporter with the games, but I am also a realist, in that MS really screwed the immediate and long term pooch with no HDMI......

Well, MS will probably come out with an HDMI cable for the 360 pretty soon. They're probably having to work out details with the AACS on it since it won't be true "HDMI". It will most likely not be HDPC compliant but this shouldn't prevent it from playing full res HD-DVD movies for quite some time until HDCP security starts being required (most likely not until 2012 or so).

[nataraj]

They're probably having to work out details with the AACS on it since it won't be true "HDMI". It will most likely not be HDPC compliant but this shouldn't prevent it from playing full res HD-DVD movies for quite some time until HDCP security starts being required (most likely not until 2012 or so).

This is dead wrong. Digital output needs to be secure - which means HDCP now.

[Dahlsim]

Other then telling them "it's virtually the same, come see". The issue is the seller isn't trying to educate them, they are trying to sell them more hardware.

I agree. The entire HD industry is poised to sell new equipment based on the virtues of 1080p and even HDMI despite the fact that 95% or more consumers will see no difference whatsoever from 1080i to 1080p and HDMI's biggest benefit is in DRM moreso than for the consumer.

At least HDMI brings the enhanced sound capabilities although even that is a somewhat manufactured benefit thanks to license restrictions on other digital Audio connections and requires new equipment (suprise!). :rolleyes:

Tallen94's post though does have some indications that he *could* be an insider including the fact he list Dead Or Alive 4 as a 1920x1080 native 360 game and it so happens that Itagaki said in an interview that the goal for DoA4 was 1920x1080/60fps. Not sure, if the release game reached that target though, so I'll have to dig a bit...

[jbutle4]

Sorry if this has already been discussed.

Will the add-on be able to upconvert my home movies and backed-up dvds over component since they are not copy protected? I know the only way to upconvert commercial dvds is with the VGA cable, but I haven't heard anything about home movies.

Thanks for the help.

[bobgpsr]

That's whats so confusing to me. Who manufactures the diodes (Sony, Nichia, Sanyo, Sharp? who else?) and who supplies the diodes to which HD-DVD or blu-ray player makers?

Starting reading here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8381945&&#post8381945
including the links for some answers.

Bob

[Dahlsim]

So? I don't mean to be rude, but the 360 already has lots of games that natively render at 1920x1080. They will automatically become "1080P" the second MS puts out their dashboard update.

You see, developers don't specify "1080i" or "1080p" when making a game, they specify a framebuffer size to natively render the game at, and the video scaler determines what goes out the video port. If the user has selected 1080i and the game only supports 1280x720 (again, there is no "I" or "P" as far as the game is concerned), the scaler takes care of that. Now in theory the developer could only ever support a 1920x1080 framebuffer the scaler would scale it down to 720P or 480i or whatever, but that is unlikely.

Some games that already support "1080P" (just looking at games near my desk)
Call of Duty 2
Dead or Alive 4
Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

Many (perhaps most) Xbox Live Arcade titles support 1920x1080. They also support 4:3 High-def modes via the VGA output which is not surprising since many XBLA games have PC origins and their developers are used to supporting a variety of resolutions.
I'd guess that Virtual Tennis 3 for the 360 will also since it is much easier to get 1920x1080 to run at an acceptable rate on the 360 than on the PS3. I know because I make cross platform console games for a living and have done next gen games.

If you look in the GT4 and Lair game shots (not the pre-rendered video stills, but the actual in-game shots with the HUD) you'll see a lot of aliasing. The PS3 doesn't have a nearly-free anti-aliasing solution like the 360 (anti-aliasing is mandatory on the 360, btw), so you'll not likely see anti-aliasing any PS3 1080 games except maybe some their Mahjong titles. Given that 1280x720 with anti-aliasing looks as good if not better (engineers love to argue this point) than 1920x1080 without, if anti-aliasing is not an option (and it is horribly expensive on the PS3's RSX), they will go for 1280x720 since you get back more precious VRAM.

For me, "1080P" with regards to PS3 games is something of a dubious bullet-point. Not quite "blast processing" but it certainly isn't the Holy Grail either.

I'm actually fairly suprised how much emphasis is being given to "1080p" over "1080i" even on a board as sophisticated as AVS, esp. for games where clearly games like Resident evil on GC, Ninja Gaiden on Xbox 1 and GoW on PS2 blew away all the higher resolution games visually in current-gen. Graphic quality is much more than resolution.

Even for movies most professionals admit to barely being able to distinguish 1080i from 1080p visually on a modern display (which all display progressively in one form or the other anyway so the original 'interlace' is barely a factor). Most admit that to "see" 1080i vs 1080p from the signal they need a massive projector sized display screen and even then it's limited to 'minor' artifacting at best?

Is this much ado about nothing or am I missing something?
Never underestimate the power of marketing spin.

[WilliamR]

It looks like AVS forum members opinions are now being taken as facts on the internet. This information below was posted on joystiq.com from a post from amirim.


If your 360 is hooked up via component cables:

Xbox 360 games can be upscaled to 1080p. Titles that run in 1080p natively (none of which currently exist) will also display without a problem.
HD-DVDs will display at 1080i maximum -- you can thank AACS for that.
Normal DVDs will play at 480p. CSS prevents anything higher (though some upscaling DVD players conveniently ignore it).

If your 360 is hooked up via VGA cable:

HD-DVDs, Upscaled DVDs and games can all display at 1080p with no copyright hassles.

If your 360 is hooked up via RF Adapter:

You have bigger problems.


LINK (http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/23/microsofts-1080p-lets-you-read-the-fine-print/)

Does this mean then that movies via component will also be able to be displayed at 720p (the max for my TV anyway)? He says 1080i, so I am assuming anything below that is fair game. If so, sweet deal, I will probably get this over the Toshiba because I am not happy with VGA on my TV (I tried it this weekend, did not turn out to good).

[WilliamR]

I'm actually fairly suprised how much emphasis is being given to "1080p" over "1080i" even on a board as sophisticated as AVS, esp. for games where clearly games like Resident evil on GC, Ninja Gaiden on Xbox 1 and GoW on PS2 blew away all the higher resolution games visually in current-gen. Graphic quality is much more than resolution.

Even for movies most professionals admit to barely being able to distinguish 1080i from 1080p visually on a modern display (which all display progressively in one form or the other anyway so the original 'interlace' is barely a factor). Most admit that to "see" 1080i vs 1080p from the signal they need a massive projector sized display screen and even then it's limited to 'minor' artifacting at best?

Is this much ado about nothing or am I missing something?
Never underestimate the power of marketing spin.

It is because you really only benefit from 1080p at certain distances. 1080p allows you to sit much closer to the TV without seeing the pixel/blocks. It is smoother, from 15' away (depending on screen size) you do not see this anyway so it is not as beneficial. This has been argues to death in the Plasma forum and the result is basically the same (what I just said).

[lymzy]

It is because you really only benefit from 1080p at certain distances.

No. It is because people are often confusing resolution on the display with resolution at the transmitter. You don't see difference from the display because there is no difference to begin with. 1080i60 transfer the same 1080p/24/30i as 1080p60 did.

[Grandmaster]

So? I don't mean to be rude, but the 360 already has lots of games that natively render at 1920x1080. They will automatically become "1080P" the second MS puts out their dashboard update. You see, developers don't specify "1080i" or "1080p" when making a game, they specify a framebuffer size to natively render the game at, and the video scaler determines what goes out the video port. If the user has selected 1080i and the game only supports 1280x720 (again, there is no "I" or "P" as far as the game is concerned), the scaler takes care of that. Now in theory the developer could only ever support a 1920x1080 framebuffer the scaler would scale it down to 720P or 480i or whatever, but that is unlikely.
Some games that already support "1080P" (just looking at games near my desk)
Call of Duty 2
Dead or Alive 4
Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

This is a really interesting post and it makes sense in that I was taking HD captures of Dead of Alive 4 the other day at 1280x720 and 1360x768 and I could see NO evidence of upscaling whatsoever. If both resolutions are actually being downscaled, that's pretty astonishing - but would make sense.

I am guessing that were I take screenshots of those games using Xbox Neighborhood, I would see the native resolution of the game? It was using precisely this technique that Project Gotham 3 rendering at 1024x600 was found out.

[Dahlsim]

This is a really interesting post and it makes sense in that I was taking HD captures of Dead of Alive 4 the other day at 1280x720 and 1360x768 and I could see NO evidence of upscaling whatsoever. If both resolutions are actually being downscaled, that's pretty astonishing - but would make sense.

I am guessing that were I take screenshots of those games using Xbox Neighborhood, I would see the native resolution of the game? It was using precisely this technique that Project Gotham 3 rendering at 1024x600 was found out.

Ahh yes, the XDK. I have it for the Xbox1, that is a good way test it. So you have the 360 XDK then? Test and tell us then, :)

If it's true that those games are rendering at 1920x1080 then I'd have to say that MS's marketers are getting beat by Sony's marketers pretty soundly because they should be spinning it along with the whole 1080p announcement. After this update, the following 360 games will give you instant "tru hd" at 1080p.....

[tom_dallas68]

If it's true that those games are rendering at 1920x1080 then I'd have to say that MS's marketers are getting beat by Sony's marketers pretty soundly because they should be spinning it along with the whole 1080p announcement. After this update, the following 360 games will give you instant "tru hd" at 1080p.....

The games probably don't render @ 1920x1080 it's probably something in between like 1024x768 or 1280x1024 so couldn't be classified as pure 1080p. Also, it may be that most of those games will be too slow on the 360 to play at that resolution so MS doesn't want to get people too excited.

[Grandmaster]

I don't have the XDK to hand - however, I do have a phenomenally powered HD capture system that can capture at any resolution up to 1920x1200, a retail Xbox 360, VGA cable, and Dead or Alive 4 demo :D

The only way right now to get big resolution from Xbox 360 is to use 1280x1024 and set it to Widescreen mode. So effectively we're getting 1024p - not that far off 1080p, and tons more vertical resolution than 720p. So any vertical scaling should be obvious to behold.

Here's (http://www.digitalfoundry.org/images/1.jpg) a capture of the DOA4 demo running in this resolution. The only scaling artefacts I'm seeing are horizontal in nature due to a 16:9 image running in a 4:3 resolution.

This (http://www.digitalfoundry.org/images/2.jpg) is that same image rescaled to widescreen in Photoshop - 1860x1024 (not a million miles away from 1920x1080). Obviously it's been scaled a fair bit horizontally but it still looks better than 720p.

Here (http://www.digitalfoundry.org/images/3.jpg) is image 1 scaled to 1280x720. It definitely looks to me like resolution has been lost...

Finally, This one (http://www.digitalfoundry.org/images/4.jpg) is the 720p image scaled back up to 1860x1024, ie to match image 2. Looks a bit fuzzier, but the difference is not as pronounced as I would hope.

So far from conclusive but I'd say that there is a some merit to this story that the 360 already has a catalogue of 1080p titles. And if it is just good scaling... well, then the 360 has a very nice scaler.

If any one wants TIFF versions of these files, please PM me with an FTP address and I'll upload them for you. In the meantime, I'll see about the resolution these games produce when the framebuffer itself is dumped. That's the only way to be sure.

[borhan]

I currently have a Samsung TV that can only do 1080p through its VGA port. From what I read, the HD-DVD player will do 1080p movies with the cable?

[richard plumb]

Even for movies most professionals admit to barely being able to distinguish 1080i from 1080p visually on a modern display (which all display progressively in one form or the other anyway so the original 'interlace' is barely a factor). Most admit that to "see" 1080i vs 1080p from the signal they need a massive projector sized display screen and even then it's limited to 'minor' artifacting at best?

Is this much ado about nothing or am I missing something?
Never underestimate the power of marketing spin.


for movies, I agree with you. properly handled, 1080i output is as good as 1080p.

But for games, 1080p can have a benefit if its 1080p/60. You're getting 1080p screens, 60 times a second. With movies you're always limited to the origina 24fps signal, so 1080p/60 is almost irrelevant.

Of course, lots of Xbox 360 games are only 30fps, so perhaps they'll run in 1080i/60 and be deinterlaced to 1080p on the TV or in the Xbox. So effectively you're back to square one where the 1080p/60 is just being delivered from a 1080i/60 (or 1080p/30 equivalent) source, much like movies.


Most of this is just marketing nonsense considering how many 1080p displays there are out there, and how close you have to be to discern any difference from a 720p native set. Effectively this is just good for people watching on 1080p front projectors from 1 screen width away. Quite a small percentage really.

[richard plumb]

Is this much ado about nothing or am I missing something?
Never underestimate the power of marketing spin.


for movies, I agree with you. properly handled, 1080i output is as good as 1080p.

But for games, 1080p can have a benefit if its 1080p/60. You're getting 1080p screens, 60 times a second. With movies you're always limited to the origina 24fps signal, so 1080p/60 is almost irrelevant.

Of course, lots of Xbox 360 games are only 30fps. So effectively you're back to square one where the 1080p/60 is just being delivered from a 1080p/30 source and frame doubled, much like movies.


Most of this is just marketing nonsense considering how many 1080p displays there are out there, and how close you have to be to discern any difference from a 720p native set. Effectively this is just good for people watching on 1080p front projectors from 1 screen width away. Quite a small percentage really.

Its a bit like the digital camera megapixel race. More must be better, right? Well yes, but with diminishing returns. If you only ever print 6x4s, you don't need all those pixels. Same with an average sized TV

[Grandmaster]

Ahh yes, the XDK. I have it for the Xbox1, that is a good way test it. So you have the 360 XDK then? Test and tell us then, :)

If it's true that those games are rendering at 1920x1080 then I'd have to say that MS's marketers are getting beat by Sony's marketers pretty soundly because they should be spinning it along with the whole 1080p announcement. After this update, the following 360 games will give you instant "tru hd" at 1080p.....

Unfortunately, I think the poster of the 1080p information has got it wrong. In the cold light of day, the DOA4 shots just look like very good scaling - image 1 in my previous post shows a very nice image, but it definitely looks like it is being scaled to me.

I did a dump of Call of Duty's 2 framebuffer and it's 720p all the way. So is Dead or Alive 4.

Oblivion is such a graphically intensive game that it would make sense for the framebuffer to be 720p as opposed to taking the performance hit of running internally at 1080p.

The notion of a ready-made library of 1080p games does sound like a great headline, but it's just not true at the moment. I think that the scaled image will look superb though so it's not all bad news.

[Dahlsim]

Unfortunately, I think the poster of the 1080p information has got it wrong. In the cold light of day, the DOA4 shots just look like very good scaling - image 1 in my previous post shows a very nice image, but it definitely looks like it is being scaled to me.

I did a dump of Call of Duty's 2 framebuffer and it's 720p all the way. So is Dead or Alive 4.

Oblivion is such a graphically intensive game that it would make sense for the framebuffer to be 720p as opposed to taking the performance hit of running internally at 1080p.

The notion of a ready-made library of 1080p games does sound like a great headline, but it's just not true at the moment. I think that the scaled image will look superb though so it's not all bad news.

Thx for investigating the claim, it's nice to know and it's something that really should be on label of the game as opposed to the fairly meaningless scalable resolutions that are there now. I suppose those labels serve the purpose of assuring consumers that the game will work with their HDTV :cool:

The real value here for either side is almost entirely a marketing advantage:





for movies, I agree with you. properly handled, 1080i output is as good as 1080p.

But for games, 1080p can have a benefit if its 1080p/60. You're getting 1080p screens, 60 times a second. With movies you're always limited to the origina 24fps signal, so 1080p/60 is almost irrelevant.

Of course, lots of Xbox 360 games are only 30fps. So effectively you're back to square one where the 1080p/60 is just being delivered from a 1080p/30 source and frame doubled, much like movies.


Most of this is just marketing nonsense considering how many 1080p displays there are out there, and how close you have to be to discern any difference from a 720p native set. Effectively this is just good for people watching on 1080p front projectors from 1 screen width away.

Quite a small percentage really.

Exactly. Even for those with the 1080p displays the 1080i should translate almost flawlessly to 1080p I would think, esp. since it's digital data over hdmi.

Even the minor fps advantage is likely to be very rare one since very few games will do 1080p/60 and even the perception of 30fps vs 60fps is debated and considered useful only in certain fast moving games.

In those cases with performance being an issue overall I'd think developers would usually choose 720p anyway. I played GTHD on PS3 at E3 and any value gained from being 1080p was easily overwhelmed by the overall sparseness of activity and general blandness of the action.

Of course that's an early version of the game but another dev there told me similar issue of dealing with a "trade off" on their game's overall performance in order to get the 1080p bullet point.

[briankmonkey]

Unfortunately, I think the poster of the 1080p information has got it wrong. In the cold light of day, the DOA4 shots just look like very good scaling - image 1 in my previous post shows a very nice image, but it definitely looks like it is being scaled to me.

I did a dump of Call of Duty's 2 framebuffer and it's 720p all the way. So is Dead or Alive 4.

Oblivion is such a graphically intensive game that it would make sense for the framebuffer to be 720p as opposed to taking the performance hit of running internally at 1080p.

The notion of a ready-made library of 1080p games does sound like a great headline, but it's just not true at the moment. I think that the scaled image will look superb though so it's not all bad news.

Thank you. I did ask that person who made the claims that " the 360 already has lots of games that natively render at 1920x1080. " for some evidence and he never did. Your info on those games contradicts what he said as well.

[cnickersonjr]

There is a HD-DVD experience tour going around. Can anyone who has seen this drive in action comment on it's performance? I am trying so hard to hold out but I'm starting to break!

[RobertR1]

Latest RUMOR:

$199 Nov 24.

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showpost.php?p=839187&postcount=66

[cnickersonjr]

Latest RUMOR:

$199 Nov 24.
Hope this is true. would be a great price! Anyone seen it running?

[huntaar]

There is a HD-DVD experience tour going around. Can anyone who has seen this drive in action comment on it's performance? I am trying so hard to hold out but I'm starting to break!

If no one else responds, I'm going to see the mobile truck at the Mall of America
on Sept 29th. I'm also going to see if they will let me insert a homebrew hd-dvd
to verify it will play those.

If anyone else is going on Friday, they are giving away a free gift:

http://www.lookandsoundofperfect.com/_pdf/hddvd_vippass.pdf

[cnickersonjr]

If no one else responds, I'm going to see the mobile truck at the Mall of America
on Sept 29th. I'm also going to see if they will let me insert a homebrew hd-dvd
to verify it will play those.

If anyone else is going on Friday, they are giving away a free gift:

http://www.lookandsoundofperfect.com/_pdf/hddvd_vippass.pdf
Please PM me when you post your comments!

[nataraj]

Anyone seen it running?

It was (I was told) shown at our company meeting last week ... I'm yet to check the recording.

[harbor13]

"Most Affordable Way for Xbox 360 Owners to Jump Into the Next-Generation of DVD At X06, exciting details about the highly anticipated Xbox 360 HD DVD Player were also revealed. Available in mid-November 2006 in North America for $199.99 (estimated retail price)*, in the U.K., France and Germany for €199.99 (£129.99) (estimated retail price)* and other territories in 2007, the Xbox 360 HD DVD Player comes with the Universal Pictures blockbuster film Peter Jackson's "King Kong" on HD DVD (for a limited time) and the Xbox 360 Universal Media Remote."

[nataraj]

^^ link pls ...

[harbor13]

^^ link pls ...

It's all hearsay, but I got this at ps3forums

Taken from another forum so take it for it's worth!


Quote:

Barcelona, Spain—On the shores of one of the world's most artistic and progressive cities, Microsoft Corp. today thrilled attendees at its annual X06 event by inviting everyone to experience the next generation now on the Xbox 360™ system. The announcements and hands-on gameplay experiences highlight how the world's greatest game creators are pushing the boundaries of what is possible in high definition and online storytelling. Highlights of the announcements included the following:


• A landmark partnership between Academy Award-winning writer,
director, and producer Peter Jackson, Academy Award-winning screenwriter Fran Walsh, and Microsoft Game Studios will create two new interactive entertainment series exclusively for Xbox 360 and Xbox Live(r). The first will be a collaborative effort with Bungie Studios to co-create the next great chapter in the Halo(r) universe. The second will be an entirely original property targeted at bringing new audiences into the captivating world of interactive entertainment. In addition, Microsoft Game Studios will partner with Jackson and Walsh to establish Wingnut Interactive, a studio dedicated to the creation of world-class interactive entertainment.

• Halo(r) Wars is an all-new real-time strategy game based on the
legendary Halo universe and designed exclusively for Xbox 360 by Ensemble Studios, creators of the Age of Empires(r) franchise.

• Rockstar and Take-Two will provide Xbox 360 gamers with exclusive
access to two epic downloadable episodes of Grand Theft Auto IV via Xbox Live, each with hours of new gameplay content, and available only on Xbox 360 just months after the release of the title.

• Ubisoft confirmed that the next Splinter Cell title, the installment
after Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell(r) Double Agent™, will be exclusive to Xbox 360, a testament to the ability of the powerful next-gen game console to deliver experiences no other console can match.

• 2K Games confirmed that BioShock, a first person shooter that will
revolutionize the genre and forever change the expectations of gamers, will be released exclusively on Xbox 360 and Microsoft(r) Windows(r) next spring.

• Project Gotham Racing(r) 4, was unveiled, the latest addition to
the best-selling franchise, made exclusively for Xbox 360 by Bizarre Creations. PGR4 promises to continue the series' pedigree of innovation by introducing exciting new experiences to racing fans worldwide.

• The beloved Banjo-Kazooie(r) franchise will breathe new,
high-definition life exclusively on Xbox 360, from famed developer Rare Ltd. Beloved characters Banjo, Kazooie and Gruntilda—among other fan favorites—will new next-gen visuals and presentation as well as their sharp wit and hilarious sense of humor.

• Microsoft Game Studios will release its highly-anticipated new MMO
game, Marvel Universe Online for both Xbox 360 and the Windows Vista™ operating system. MUO was developed by industry luminaries Cryptic Studios, creators of the smash hits City of Heroes and City of Villains.

• Expect two new additions to Xbox Live Arcade: The FPS that pioneered
the network-gaming era, DOOM(r), from acclaimed developer id Software and Activision, is available now on Xbox Live Marketplace. The game includes the original four-episode single-player game, four-player split screen action, both co-op and deathmatch, and four player co-op and deathmatch via Xbox Live. Coming soon to Xbox Live Arcade is Sensible World of Soccer from Codemasters. Based on a classic Amiga title from 1994, Sensible World of Soccer will let gamers choose between the original graphics or an updated, high-resolution look and feel—while still capturing the original game's wide world of football.

• Arriving at retailers in North America, the U.K, France and Germany
in mid-November 2006, the Xbox 360 HD DVD Player will retail for
$199.99 in North America (estimated retail price)* and €199.99/£129.99 (estimated retail price)* in the U.K., France and Germany. The Xbox 360 HD DVD Player comes with the Universal Pictures' blockbuster film Peter Jackson's "King Kong" on HD DVD (for a limited time) and the Xbox 360 Universal Media Remote.

"Xbox 360 is changing the way developers are telling stories today — from the industry's most beloved franchises to exciting new properties," said Peter Moore, corporate vice president of the Interactive Entertainment Business in the Entertainment and Devices Division at Microsoft. "We are inspiring the imaginations of the entertainment industry's best and most creative talent to take their franchises in exciting directions, while also spinning new tales for everyone."

"We are incredibly pleased to be here in Barcelona to talk about the next chapter of Xbox and how Xbox 360 continues to deliver on the promise and potential of the next generation," said Chris Lewis, regional vice president of the Home and Entertainment Division, Europe, Middle East and Africa (EMEA), at Microsoft. "As we prepare to launch some of our biggest global titles and best regional content both right now and well into the future, consumers will have much to choose from with a system designed for high-definition and online entertainment. We are the only next-generation experience that seamlessly connects players to their games, friends and entertainment content."

Xbox 360 Stretches Popular Franchises in New Directions Xbox 360 continues to expand the interactive entertainment landscape, enabling industry superstars to take beloved franchises in exciting new directions. Microsoft Game Studios announced its partnership with Peter Jackson to herald in a new age of interactive entertainment that can only be realized on Xbox 360 and Xbox Live. The goal of this partnership is to create new stories and redefine the way they are told. The first part of this long-term relationship is for Jackson, Walsh and team to bring to life two new interactive entertainment experiences exclusively for the Xbox 360 and Xbox Live. The first project is to co-write, co-design and co-produce a completely new and original chapter in the "Halo" universe in collaboration with Bungie Studios. The second project is an entirely original property from the team in New Zealand that will not only bring a whole new interactive story to life, but will also captivate new audiences that have yet to discover the power of interactive entertainment.
In addition, in collaboration with Microsoft Game Studios, Jackson and Walsh are creating Wingnut Interactive. The two will create a world-class interactive entertainment studio that fuses the strength of Microsoft's technology and interactive entertainment experience with the creative and imaginative excellence of the Wingnut Interactive team.

"Microsoft has built an amazing living canvas with Xbox 360 and Xbox Live, which allows the storytellers of our time to express themselves in a new medium. They have fundamentally changed how people think about games," Jackson said. "My vision, together with Microsoft Game Studios, is to push the boundaries of game development and the future of interactive entertainment. From a movie-maker's point of view, it is clear to me that the Xbox 360 platform is the stage where storytellers can work their craft in the same way they do today with movies and books but taking it further with interactivity."

In addition to demonstrating its leadership in the next-generation of games through exclusive alliances, Microsoft Game Studios announced "Halo Wars," an all-new real-time strategy game based on the legendary "Halo" universe and built exclusively for Xbox 360 by Ensemble Studios, the creators of the "Age of Empires" series. "Halo Wars"
places the player in command of human UNSC armies as they deploy for mankind's first deadly encounter with the enemy Covenant forces.

In addition, Microsoft Game Studios provided first details surrounding "Project Gotham Racing 4," the latest addition to the premiere racing franchise from Bizarre Creations and the reunion of Banjo, Kazooie and Gruntilda in an all-new addition to the