This is the ONE and ONLY

XBOX as an HD DVD Player Thread: limit discussions to this thread title

Any other XBOX discussions should be posted on the gaming forum: NOT on this forum

Thanks :)

This is the ONE and ONLY

XBOX as an HD DVD Player Thread: limit discussions to this thread title

Any other XBOX discussions should be posted on the gaming forum: NOT on this forum

Thanks :)

Might be a good idea to add "360" to the title ;)

Might be a good idea to add "360" to the title ;)

stop busting chops Scotty :D

Might be a good idea to add "360" to the title ;)

How is that?

How is that?

Some people might think you're talking about the original XBox and not the 360. :p

Well its official .. HD-DVD player for the xbox ~ $177 out in November ! Eat your shorts Sony !

Nice.

Is there a hard date ?

I can't wait. I play my 360 on 65" set in my family room. This allows me to get the A2 for my theater in the basement and this drive for my family room !

If the price is under $200, I'll be picking it up.

I have been reading updates on ign.com about the HD-DVD player at the Tokyo Game Conference for the 360 and no official mention of the US price as of yet. Also, Microsoft is saying they will have the 360 supporting 1080p by the end of the year. I am hoping that means that they will finally be releasing some kind of HDMI cable because I don't think component supports 1080p.

Isn't that $177 price the Japanese price converted to dollars? If so, then that doesn't necessarily mean it will be that price in NA. More than likely, it will be $199.99 here, but there hasn't been an announcement here yet (probably during the upcoming X06 conference).

EDIT:

I also wanted to add that I have a Toshiba HD-A1 on the way. I was originally going to get the 360 drive, but I changed my mind because of the following reasons:


The HD-A1 has a great SD upscaler whereas the 360 drive can only upscale via VGA (unless they do release an HDMI cable at some point for the 360)
The HD-A1 has analog audio outputs so I can enjoy TrueHD sound
If I use my 360 for games and movies and there is a hardware failure on the 360, I wouldn't be able to play games OR watch HD-DVD's
The 360 HD-DVD playback quality has not been proven yet. Will it be as good as the HD-A1? Will it be faster? Still a lot of questions unanswered.


All that said, if the 360 drive is $200 or less, I might pick one of them up as well as the HD-A1!

I have been reading updates on ign.com about the HD-DVD player at the Tokyo Game Conference for the 360 and no official mention of the US price as of yet. Also, Microsoft is saying they will have the 360 supporting 1080p by the end of the year. I am hoping that means that they will finally be releasing some kind of HDMI cable because I don't think component supports 1080p.

1080p over component!! XBox 360 will have a 1080p dashboard update this fall.

1080p over component AND VGA.

1080p over component!! XBox 360 will have a 1080p dashboard update this fall.

I am guessing 1080p upconversion over component is only for games, since AACS doesn't apply to games. The movies might be restricted to 1080i over component with no upconverting (Thanks AACS!), but might only support upconverting the DVDs and outputting HD-DVDs at 1080p over VGA.

I am guessing 1080p upconversion over component is only for games, since AACS doesn't apply to games. The movies might be restricted to 1080i over component with no upconverting (Thanks AACS!), but might only support upconverting the DVDs and outputting HD-DVDs at 1080p over VGA.

As you say I would think 1080p for movies to require VGA (fine for projectors, LCD and some other hdtv's ) although the truth is that 1080i will produce the same result in PQ for the vast majority of televisions.

The main impact of this is for marketing value :rolleyes: Clearly they'll still need HDMI at some point to "keep up" with the PS3 on perception...

They actually only announced Japanese info. They still have yet to announce an American street date (which really bothers me. Yes I know its a Japanese trade show but you MUST know when you are going to release in NA by now). For all we know they could just release all there units in Japan, and we may not get any till next year. I doubt it, but you never know.

The other thing that I am still wondering about is the price. Its about $177 there, but there core system is also only $250 with a game while ours is $300 with nothing. Of course we coudl get a price reduction soon also if we are lucky.

Do the component & VGA video amplifiers actually have enough frequency range to take advantage of 1080p? Ok, so they upgraded the software to switch the DACs at 1080p, but will we actually see the higher frequency content in the signals?

I hope they bundle this dashboard update with the player as well. Not everyone has live.

So, if I use VGA on my 360 for this new player, can I leave the VGA connected all the time or do games suffer from quality? Is VGA a step down from component? Will my games look as good on my high def TV? (My TV is 720p not 1080p). Just curious on what I should do because I would like this to also upconvert my SD DVDs and I am in the market for a DVD player but don't want to but an upconverting DVD player and a high def player. Been leaning towards the 360 drive since I have a 360 already. When its released, if it sucks, I'll buy the Toshiba instead.

So, with this VGA, confused, you actually use VGA for high definition (yes my TV has a VGA port). Help, confused, thanks.

Well its official .. HD-DVD player for the xbox ~ $177 out in November ! Eat your shorts Sony !

I hope the price is true and I'd probably pick it up for that. Still hope for HDMI so that the audio isn't crippled.

Hardly eat your shorts Sony though as that still puts it above a PS3 for playing movies in HD. Unles of course there is a price drop on the console.

I'll have both eventually though :)

This is awesome. HD-DVD up to 1080p for ~$200! Can't beat that. The new toshiba A2x will do 1080p but cost $999. From reading I have done on here, Amirm has confirmed that the HD-DVD addon will decode Dolby Digital TrueHD to most likely 5.1 analog outputs which I assume will be part of the HD-DVD addon kit. I am also guessing that the SPDF out will also send a downgraded version of Dolby Digital + like the Toshiba does if you don't use the analog outputs.

I am also excited that the fall update will also enable upscaling DVDs up to 1080p via component cables as well. So long as the quality of this upscaling surpasses my Sony progressive scan DVD player, I'll be happy.

So, if I use VGA on my 360 for this new player, can I leave the VGA connected all the time or do games suffer from quality? Is VGA a step down from component? Will my games look as good on my high def TV? (My TV is 720p not 1080p). Just curious on what I should do because I would like this to also upconvert my SD DVDs and I am in the market for a DVD player but don't want to but an upconverting DVD player and a high def player. Been leaning towards the 360 drive since I have a 360 already. When its released, if it sucks, I'll buy the Toshiba instead.

So, with this VGA, confused, you actually use VGA for high definition (yes my TV has a VGA port). Help, confused, thanks.
VGA is sharper, some report washed-out colors, others say beautful picture in games and video. The last dashboard update was supposed to address the washed-out look in VGA (I think it was sending PC levels in error) and enable upconverting DVDs in VGA. There are threads in the xbox forum with several voicing opinnions on it.

So, yes you could use it for both if desired.

They actually only announced Japanese info. They still have yet to announce an American street date (which really bothers me. Yes I know its a Japanese trade show but you MUST know when you are going to release in NA by now). For all we know they could just release all there units in Japan, and we may not get any till next year. I doubt it, but you never know.

The other thing that I am still wondering about is the price. Its about $177 there, but there core system is also only $250 with a game while ours is $300 with nothing. Of course we coudl get a price reduction soon also if we are lucky.

They'll probably announce date/price next week at X06. X06 appeals more to Europe and North America.

I hope they bundle this dashboard update with the player as well. Not everyone has live.

If I'm not mistaken, you can get the 360 updates through the internet and just burn them onto a CD/DVD

EDIT: Nevermind, that may only be for 360 backwards compatibility updates

This is awesome. HD-DVD up to 1080p for ~$200! Can't beat that. The new toshiba A2x will do 1080p but cost $999. From reading I have done on here, Amirm has confirmed that the HD-DVD addon will decode Dolby Digital TrueHD to most likely 5.1 analog outputs which I assume will be part of the HD-DVD addon kit. I am also guessing that the SPDF out will also send a downgraded version of Dolby Digital + like the Toshiba does if you don't use the analog outputs.

I am also excited that the fall update will also enable upscaling DVDs up to 1080p via component cables as well. So long as the quality of this upscaling surpasses my Sony progressive scan DVD player, I'll be happy.
I heard the 360 COULD do it, but still no official word on how the audio would leave the 360. If current cable is used, it would likely be downconverted to optical out.

They'll probably announce date/price next week at X06. X06 appeals more to Europe and North America.



If I'm not mistaken, you can get the 360 updates through the internet and just burn them onto a CD/DVD
Sadly, only for backwards comp updates for XBOX 1 games. The only option outside live I know of is:
Get a friend with live to use your hardrive and download it. or,
Purchase a game that requires it before it will play. They sometimes have it on the game disc.

Live silver is free and you can get updates, but living in the stix, I am only now getting Comcast digital in the area, and no FIOS or DSL yet.

Thanks for the reply.

Sadly, only for backwards comp updates for XBOX 1 games. The only option outside live I know of is:
Get a friend with live to use your hardrive and download it. or,
Purchase a game that requires it before it will play. They sometimes have it on the game disc.

Live silver is free and you can get updates, but living in the stix, I am only now getting Comcast digital in the area, and no FIOS or DSL yet.

Thanks for the reply.

Yeah, hopefully they work out something for people in a similar situation as you.

This will be the cheapest way to get 1080p HD DVD and Dolby TruHD, bar none.

Not sure about the 1080p dvd claims. That's against DVD spec from what I know. (Doing it over analog).

Your rig will finally benefit by pushing the full 60 megapixels per second of visuals to your compatible HDTV

Read the Press release. he states "60 Mega Pixels per second"

720p60 = 60 mp/s
1080i60 = 60 mp/s
1080p30 = 60mp/s

BUT

1080p60= 120mp/s

Am I missing something here? In his statement he then states that the 360 will NOT do 1080p. If there is indeed 1080p output, Im sure it will be pullup for movies, probably not games.

Am I think only one that thinks this is silly? What the heck is the need for this thread?

This entire forum is dedicated to HD DVD players, of which right now there is basically one or two (if you differentiate between the A1 and the XA1), and one officially announced one on the immediate horizon and we're going to take one of the two or three there are and relegate it to one thread? Why don't we just go ahead and make a seperate thread for the A1 since there's a bazillion posts about it and this entire forum can be made up of two threads?

I count 22 posts about the A1/XA1 on the front page of this forum and 3 about the 360 player. Why the need for this?

I count 22 posts about the A1/XA1 on the front page of this forum and 3 about the 360 player. Why the need for this?

Ummm...why not? Are you worried about taking up too much space? :rolleyes:

Right now I have an Intercooler hooked up to my 360 and the whole setup is just too loud for most movies. I'm excited by the prospect of this addon at this price, so much so that it's made my hunt for an upscaling dvd player moot for the time being, but, I'd consider this drive less than ideal if the noise issues persist.

So, if I use VGA on my 360 for this new player, can I leave the VGA connected all the time or do games suffer from quality? Is VGA a step down from component? Will my games look as good on my high def TV? (My TV is 720p not 1080p). Just curious on what I should do because I would like this to also upconvert my SD DVDs and I am in the market for a DVD player but don't want to but an upconverting DVD player and a high def player. Been leaning towards the 360 drive since I have a 360 already. When its released, if it sucks, I'll buy the Toshiba instead.

So, with this VGA, confused, you actually use VGA for high definition (yes my TV has a VGA port). Help, confused, thanks.

In theory, VGA should be just a bit better in terms of the color signal but in reality it depends on the VGA vs the Component inputs on your display so you have to try it out for yourself.

Over VGA 360 will upscale your regular dvds, over component it will not due to dvd license restrictions.

Live silver is free and you can get updates, but living in the stix, I am only now getting Comcast digital in the area, and no FIOS or DSL yet.

I'm curious. Do you not have an internet connection at all or don't have broadband ? Doesn't live work over dial up ?

My 2 cents..

Decided to upgrade to 360 on the day the PS3 comes out. Not a huge gamer..have about 20 XBOX titles I guess. Still I thought this might be my chance for an additional pro HD-DVD statement. Of course I'll have to get the HD add-on too.

Cheers.

I'm curious. Do you not have an internet connection at all or don't have broadband ? Doesn't live work over dial up ?


Live has always been broadband only since day one with the XBOX. You are thinking of the PS2

Now if Micosoft will only announce that you can connect the xbox 360 add on HD DVD Drive to your pc and add the player software AND if you have the right graphics card connected to your hd tv, then Sony will really be in trouble. Not only would Microsoft be selling into the Xbox 360 5 million plus market but tens millions of PC's

The sub 200 dollar price will definitely put the pressure on Sony

John

From what I've read the 1080p output is for games only (and yes they'll slow down just like PC gaming). The HD DVD connects to Xbox via USB, and I suspect you'll likely get at best 720p output for unprotected content. It wouldn't surprise me if most content (protected), will downscale on the output to XBox and subsequently to TV at 480p. This is what you get without HDCP/HDMI.

Right now I have an Intercooler hooked up to my 360 and the whole setup is just too loud for most movies. I'm excited by the prospect of this addon at this price, so much so that it's made my hunt for an upscaling dvd player moot for the time being, but, I'd consider this drive less than ideal if the noise issues persist.

This is one reason I opted for the XA1. I don't know if it is just my 360, but in my opinion, the 360 is too loud for movies. Maybe it will play quieter during HD-DVD playback since it's own drive is not running. I had my 360 replaced once under warranty. I swear my first one wasn't as loud as this one. I've debated calling support and seeing about the fan noise.

Other than that, my 360 has been awesome!!!

From what I've read the 1080p output is for games only (and yes they'll slow down just like PC gaming). The HD DVD connects to Xbox via USB, and I suspect you'll likely get at best 720p output for unprotected content. It wouldn't surprise me if most content (protected), will downscale on the output to XBox and subsequently to TV at 480p. This is what you get without HDCP/HDMI.

HD-DVD movies will output at 1080p.....

Right now there is a big question of HDMI connectivity -- an alternative to component connections it's an all-digital audio/video interface capable of transmitting uncompressed streams -- Microsoft said they have nothing to announce, but are considering the possibility.

We pressed this issue and asked if Microsoft is concerned about the fact that the Image Constraint Toke (ICT) component of HDCP/AACS copy-protection won't work over component video connections, which could make the X360 HD-DVD drive useless sometime in the future if the copy-protection scheme is fully implemented in HD-DVDs.

Microsoft replied via email:

"The image constraint token feature of AACS is an optional flag for the [motion picture] studios and several have publicly stated they have no plans to invoke [the copy-protection flags]. Therefore, the copy protection scheme is fully implemented in both HD DVD and Blu-ray today.

"We [Microsoft Corporation] do not see the absence of HDMI/HDCP as an issue over the lifetime of this generation of [the X360] console. HDMI/HDCP is still a very new interface and until it is supported broadly across the CE and PC industries and by consumers on a wide enough scale to be considered a standard, we don't expect anyone to impede content flow over non-HDMI devices (re: invoke the ICT)."

One Microsoft rep told us that "Let us [Microsoft] worry about that. The consumer shouldn't have to worry about that!"

Until we are actually able to plug it in and power it up that's all we know about this handy little peripheral. If you're an X360 owner and want to play HD-DVD movies this winter Microsoft seems to have designed the smartest and cheapest way to do just that.

http://gear.ign.com/articles/733/733328p1.html

HD-DVD movies will output at 1080p.....

No- the article you've posted is lipservice- it's a tapdance around the real subject in question, which has nothing to do with ICT. The broader AACS spec disallows anything beyond 1080i/60 over an analog connection regardless of whether ICT is turned on or off. This is already established and in place. If it were ICT that we were worried about, we'd be talking about dowsampling the image to 960x540 over analog connections, not 1080i/60.

This thread covers this topic in much more detail: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=675595

No- the article you've posted is lipservice- it's a tapdance around the real subject in question, which has nothing to do with ICT. The broader AACS spec disallows anything beyond 1080i/60 over an analog connection regardless of whether ICT is turned on or off. This is already established and in place. If it were ICT that we were worried about, we'd be talking about dowsampling the image to 960x540 over analog connections, not 1080i/60.

This thread covers this topic in much more detail: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=675595

Than how do you explain all of the Toshiba A1 owners sending HD-DVD signals at 1080i/720p over component cables? I have heard that DVD's can't be upconverted except over HDMI but maybe microsoft paid their way to not follow that spec since the fall update is supposed to allow DVDs to also be upconverted over component to 1080p/1080i/720p.

Than how do you explain all of the Toshiba A1 owners sending HD-DVD signals at 1080i/720p over component cables?

Huh?

1080i and 720p are allowed over analog per AACS spec- it's 1080p that isn't.

September 20, 2006 - According to an official release by Microsoft at its Tokyo Game Show 2006 press briefing, the Xbox 360 will be able to support 1080p games and videos. According to the press release, the fall update will usher in the upgraded resolution capability.



"[Microsoft's] fall software update, scheduled for release later this year, will allow all Xbox 360 consoles around the world to output game and movie content in 1080p resolution."

According to representatives from Microsoft, the update will allow for all existing X360 titles to be upscaled to 1080p. The Xbox 360 HD-DVD player will not be required for 1080p playback, since the update will be available through Xbox Live. However, those who purchase the player when it releases will get an installation disc with the update on it.

Which games will be released in the future that will support the higher resolution is still unannounced. We were told by Microsoft's PR company, "As with all Xbox 360 games, we've leave it up to the discretion of the developer to decide how best they'd like their games to be delivered to consumers."

1080p is a visual upgrade over the Xbox 360's current maximum resolution output of 1080i, or 1920 by 1080 interlaced. We'll update as more details become available.

Well, how many HDTV's support 1080P over component?

If the price is under $200, I'll be picking it up.

I'm betting $150. Everything is more expensive in Japan and we've been hearing rumors about MS doing thing to hit this one out of the park. That would be a great price to do it.

September 20, 2006 - According to an official release by Microsoft at its Tokyo Game Show 2006 press briefing, the Xbox 360 will be able to support 1080p games and videos. According to the press release, the fall update will usher in the upgraded resolution capability.



"[Microsoft's] fall software update, scheduled for release later this year, will allow all Xbox 360 consoles around the world to output game and movie content in 1080p resolution."

According to representatives from Microsoft, the update will allow for all existing X360 titles to be upscaled to 1080p. The Xbox 360 HD-DVD player will not be required for 1080p playback, since the update will be available through Xbox Live. However, those who purchase the player when it releases will get an installation disc with the update on it.

Which games will be released in the future that will support the higher resolution is still unannounced. We were told by Microsoft's PR company, "As with all Xbox 360 games, we've leave it up to the discretion of the developer to decide how best they'd like their games to be delivered to consumers."

1080p is a visual upgrade over the Xbox 360's current maximum resolution output of 1080i, or 1920 by 1080 interlaced. We'll update as more details become available.

Look very carefully at how this is worded. Nowhere does it say that you'll see 1080p output for the HD DVD player- it says you'll get it for "games and movie content." "Movie content" could simply mean XBL video downloads and/or Media Center content from your PC. And, of course, you will get 1080p output over VGA- so it's not technically incorrect for an MS rep to say that the 360's HD DVD add-on will output at 1080p- it just gives you an incomplete picture of reality.

I don't know how else to put it. I've already provided a link to a very detailed thread that covers this subject on this very forum. AACS does not allow for 1080p output over analog connections. The HD DVD drive for the 360 will have to comply with AACS standards.

What else needs to be said?

When it comes down to it, 1080p doesn't really matter to me and wont for a long time. At least this addon will get me into HD-DVD at a cheap cost and put my 720p/1080i Panasonic AE900 projector to good home theater use on top of the game and xbl use it already gets and the fall update will give me a free upconverting DVD player. No need to druel after the Oppo anymore.

Video of 360 HD DVD playing Fast & Furious 3 Tokyo Drift. Shows iHD (or should I say HDi) action along with PiP action.

http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/clips/clips-xbox-360-hddvd-in-action-202018.php

I'm guessing the xbox360 will also output 1080p via HDMI when the revised 360 (still no hd dvd internal) comes out. I'm guessing we won't hear anything until CES...but that's my guess. :)

They actually only announced Japanese info. They still have yet to announce an American street date (which really bothers me. Yes I know its a Japanese trade show but you MUST know when you are going to release in NA by now). For all we know they could just release all there units in Japan, and we may not get any till next year. I doubt it, but you never know.

The other thing that I am still wondering about is the price. Its about $177 there, but there core system is also only $250 with a game while ours is $300 with nothing. Of course we coudl get a price reduction soon also if we are lucky.


hmm i suspect the american street date to be 17 Nov (to explain why Endgadget announce a "wrong date" for Japan launch after an interview with the XBox 360 people)". Endgadget announced 17 Nov for Japan launch then Reuter announced that its 22 Nov. Maybe Endgadget was mistakenly given the wrong date !!!! :D

Now if Micosoft will only announce that you can connect the xbox 360 add on HD DVD Drive to your pc and add the player software AND if you have the right graphics card connected to your hd tv, then Sony will really be in trouble. Not only would Microsoft be selling into the Xbox 360 5 million plus market but tens millions of PC's

The sub 200 dollar price will definitely put the pressure on Sony

John

It has been widely reported that the HD DVD add on is compatible with XP Media Center Edition. I dunno whether the whole XBox 360 compatible with XP Media Center therefor, the Add On will also be compatible or that a standalone HD DVD add on would also be compatible with XP Media Center.

anyhow if its priced at $170, it will create 'impulsive' buy where people are already saying that they intend to the the add on just to stripe the HD DVD drive to a build HTPC.

The question is now HOW MANY units MS intend to put in the market at launch and till eoy and by March 2007. AmirM mentioned in several occasions that XBox 360 Add On, Toshiba and PS3 will lead in term of hardware number.

Why is the launch only announced in Japan? The 360 has a small presence in Japan where it is a very distant second (third?) to the PS2. I'm wondering if the US launch is going to occur at a similar time but it is just not announced yet, or if they are deliberately releasing the HD DVD add on in a small market that will not cannabilize diodes for dedicated HD DVD players in the rest of the world. The benefit is that an HD DVD 360 release somewhere offers a counter argument to the PS3 release, which if we believe current reports will be available in very limited quantity in November. Is this just a marketing/PR move?

Why is the launch only announced in Japan? The 360 has a small presence in Japan where it is a very distant second (third?) to the PS2. I'm wondering if the US launch is going to occur at a similar time but it is just not announced yet, or if they are deliberately releasing the HD DVD add on in a small market that will not cannabilize diodes for dedicated HD DVD players in the rest of the world. The benefit is that an HD DVD 360 release somewhere offers a counter argument to the PS3 release, which if we believe current reports will be available in very limited quantity in November. Is this just a marketing/PR move?

MSFT will announce deatails for the North American and European launch next week at X06.

MSFT will announce deatails for the North American and European launch next week at X06.

Great news, thanks!

Read the Press release. he states "60 Mega Pixels per second"

720p60 = 60 mp/s
1080i60 = 60 mp/s
1080p30 = 60mp/s

BUT

1080p60= 120mp/s

Am I missing something here? In his statement he then states that the 360 will NOT do 1080p. If there is indeed 1080p output, Im sure it will be pullup for movies, probably not games.


Dude......How many threads are you going to post this in........You look it up for yourself!!

From the industry insiders thread:

1080p is supported over VGA for DVD, HD DVD and gaming output. And yes, AACS does allow 1080p over VGA (classified under authorized "computer monitor outputs").

For component, you get gaming up to 1080p, and 1080i for HD DVD. DVD only works at 480p over this connection. The latter two are due to restrictions in DVD CCA and AACS rules for DVD and HD DVD playback respectively.

On gaming, the machine supports both scaling of 720p games to 1080p, and native games running at 1080p resolution. It is up to game developers to decide which way to go.

Well, how many HDTV's support 1080P over component?

Quite a few projectors do. For eg panny ae900 supports all these over component.

YPBPR signals: 525i (480i), 525p (480p), 625i (576i),
625p (576p), 1 125 (1 080)/60i,
1 125 (1 080)/50i, 1 125 (1 080)/24p,
750 (720)/60p, 750 (720)/50p

Live has always been broadband only since day one with the XBOX. You are thinking of the PS2

While dialup is not officially supported, nothing stops you from connecting your pc / lan to internet over dialup and then access live from xbox. Ofcourse you can't game much because of lag & bandwidth, but for firmware updates it should work. I've not done this personally but if you seach "xbox live dialup" you will see a lot of people have done this.

Quite a few projectors do. For eg panny ae900 supports all these over component.

I know projectors tend to support VGA anyway since often they are used for PC connections so the 360 1080p will be supported there. The VGA did add little better PQ and sd dvd upscaling on my own dlp projector.

I know some friends use PC's / VGA on their microdisplay HDTV's as well.

With standar dvd upscaling and now true 1080p output it appears that VGA might be now the optimal connection for Xbox 360 (or base Model PS3?). Do most 1080p capable HDTV's support a VGA connection or hdmi/component only?

Do most 1080p capable HDTV's support a VGA connection or hdmi/component only?

I think most of the HDTVs do have a VGA connection - whether or not they support 1080p. Initial reports on last year's Samsung models were that they supported 1080p input via VGA/component but not thr' HDMI.

Isn't that $177 price the Japanese price converted to dollars? If so, then that doesn't necessarily mean it will be that price in NA. More than likely, it will be $199.99 here, but there hasn't been an announcement here yet (probably during the upcoming X06 conference).

EDIT:

I also wanted to add that I have a Toshiba HD-A1 on the way. I was originally going to get the 360 drive, but I changed my mind because of the following reasons:


The HD-A1 has a great SD upscaler whereas the 360 drive can only upscale via VGA (unless they do release an HDMI cable at some point for the 360)
The HD-A1 has analog audio outputs so I can enjoy TrueHD sound
If I use my 360 for games and movies and there is a hardware failure on the 360, I wouldn't be able to play games OR watch HD-DVD's
The 360 HD-DVD playback quality has not been proven yet. Will it be as good as the HD-A1? Will it be faster? Still a lot of questions unanswered.


All that said, if the 360 drive is $200 or less, I might pick one of them up as well as the HD-A1!

Those are reasons, but I'm thinking they're kind of soft ones. And like you said, for the price, might just have to pick one up.

If you get both, I'd really like to see a post on how a side by side comparison is from your standpoint.

Those are reasons, but I'm thinking they're kind of soft ones. And like you said, for the price, might just have to pick one up.

If you get both, I'd really like to see a post on how a side by side comparison is from your standpoint.

Yeah, if I get both I'll definitely post about any differences I see/hear. If the 360 drive comes in at $200 or less here, I'll most likely get it.

Do most 1080p capable HDTV's support a VGA connection or hdmi/component only?HDMI is becoming the standard 1080p connection; only a very few sets support 1080p VGA (and the Samsung's don't do true 1080p input, but chop and overscan). The forthcoming 1080p Sharps don't do 1080p VGA; nor does the just released Sony V2500's, but the XBR2/3's do.

A digital 1080p HDMI (which by HDMI's specs, will also support DVI->HDMI) is a must have on any 1080p hdtv. I'd even avoid a purchase of a new graphics card that didn't have an HDMI, because a DVI likely won't support HDCP -- it can but few do;whereas HDMI always does.

Also having an analog 1080p input is a nice-to-have (because why not... can't hurt to have extra inputs), but it's really becoming a legacy connection. And with DRM and HDCP, an analog 1080p can't be counted on to work as 1080p w/ 1080p sources in the future.

That MS chose to release an xbox 360 add-on that supports 1080p only on analog outputs is just plain weird; contrary to where things are moving; and which will only benefit a small subset (owners of sets that can handle 1080p VGA or component) of a small subset (owners of 1080p sets). And since games aren't going to be 1080p for some time... those benefits shrink to the empty set. It's one of the silliest, most irrelevant releases I've come across. By it's ridiculous nature, it only draws attention to an unfavorable comparison w/ the ps3 and br. (and I'm not anti hd-dvd -- will get an A2 -- or a br fan).

Why is the launch only announced in Japan? The 360 has a small presence in Japan where it is a very distant second (third?) to the PS2. I'm wondering if the US launch is going to occur at a similar time but it is just not announced yet, or if they are deliberately releasing the HD DVD add on in a small market that will not cannabilize diodes for dedicated HD DVD players in the rest of the world. The benefit is that an HD DVD 360 release somewhere offers a counter argument to the PS3 release, which if we believe current reports will be available in very limited quantity in November. Is this just a marketing/PR move?

It's due to the fact that MS is showing off their wares at the Tokyo Game Show (TGS) that's going on from 9/22-9/24. Focus of that show is gaming in JP.

As already mentioned, X06 should yield additional info for the rest of us!

why does 1080p matter? I thought we have long established that for most people (ie sets under 60") 1080i and p are indestinguishable. also keep in mind the people that this is marketed to probably don't have the greatest gear. so why are we splitting hairs over this? if anything I think ms is falling into the sony low road of hyping things that don't even matter or aren't really true yet can be in a skued way.

Why is the launch only announced in Japan? The 360 has a small presence in Japan where it is a very distant second (third?) to the PS2. I'm wondering if the US launch is going to occur at a similar time but it is just not announced yet, or if they are deliberately releasing the HD DVD add on in a small market that will not cannabilize diodes for dedicated HD DVD players in the rest of the world. The benefit is that an HD DVD 360 release somewhere offers a counter argument to the PS3 release, which if we believe current reports will be available in very limited quantity in November. Is this just a marketing/PR move?

to make the japanese feel important !! :p

...That MS chose to release an xbox 360 add-on that supports 1080p only on analog outputs is just plain weird; contrary to where things are moving; and which will only benefit a small subset (owners of sets that can handle 1080p VGA or component) of a small subset (owners of 1080p sets). And since games aren't going to be 1080p for some time... those benefits shrink to the empty set. It's one of the silliest, most irrelevant releases I've come across. By it's ridiculous nature, it only draws attention to an unfavorable comparison w/ the ps3 and br. (and I'm not anti hd-dvd -- will get an A2 -- or a br fan).

Thats pretty naive. While I also believe MS is driving their own hype machine reguarding 1080p, as an owner of a 720p native display and a tight budget, I for one will be picking this product up. I disagree that this product only benefits "a small subset of a small subset of HDTV owners". That is clearly inaccurate. It would be more accurate to say that 1080P over VGA only benefits a small subset of a small subset of owners. The HDDVD drive addon itself will benefit a lot of folks for sure, especially those like me who already happen to have an Xbox360 and a HDTV with a VGA input. Or even if they do not own an HDTV at all, they can still reap the benfits of the addon with an old extra PC monitor.

-Alan

why does 1080p matter? I thought we have long established that for most people (ie sets under 60") 1080i and p are indestinguishable. also keep in mind the people that this is marketed to probably don't have the greatest gear. so why are we splitting hairs over this? if anything I think ms is falling into the sony low road of hyping things that don't even matter or aren't really true yet can be in a skued way.


The perception is already out in the market on the superiority of 1080p over 1080i. There is no way that technical explanations of how 1080i will usually produce the same exact PQ as 1080p will get across to most consumer.

The mantra in the marketplace has been "hd-dvd/xbox is 1080i while blu-ray/ps3 is 1080p", period. It's impossible to counter that with technical explanations. MS/Toshiba is forced to try to keep pace.

No doubt somewhere in Redmond (or such) furious work is being done to get HDMI going on 360's to offset the next marketing bullet point.

The perception is already out in the market on the superiority of 1080p over 1080i. There is no way that technical explanations of how 1080i will usually produce the same exact PQ as 1080p will get across to most consumer.

The mantra in the marketplace has been "hd-dvd/xbox is 1080i while blu-ray/ps3 is 1080p", period. It's impossible to counter that with technical explanations. MS/Toshiba is forced to try to keep pace.

No doubt somewhere in Redmond (or such) furious work is being done to get HDMI going on 360's to offset the next marketing bullet point.

I disagree. Education would make over priced 1080p products look "silly". XBox 360 add on will do 1080p rendering. Sony tried immediately (after MS' 360 1080p support announcement) to play down the support saying that its not 1080p native. MS hit back saying XBox 360 will render 1080p both both game and movies after their fall dashboard update.

basically i am amazed that the XBox 360 hardware shipped since last year are capable of rendering 1080p without hardware update. The whole thing needed to render 1080p is in the box all this while others are still strugling to get their 1080p products to the market... !!

Looking at what the 360 has under the hood the triple core processer has more than enough horsepower to support 1080p and I've thought that since day one. Microsoft knew all along they would be supporting 1080p and simply used it as an ace in the sleeve to use against Sony who has told everyone that 1080p is True HD.....well now I guess Microsoft has True HD as well.

Looking at what the 360 has under the hood the triple core processer has more than enough horsepower to support 1080p and I've thought that since day one. Microsoft knew all along they would be supporting 1080p and simply used it as an ace in the sleeve to use against Sony who has told everyone that 1080p is True HD.....well now I guess Microsoft has True HD as well.

It's not the triple-core processor (the CPU) that decides 1080p.. it is the amount of video memory and the GPU that decides if a console can do 1080p and using what complexity of games. I don't think either Xbox360 or PS3 can render games like Crysis at 1080p.

P.S. I am a MS fan (not a 'fanboy') and have an Xbox and an Xbox360, but I don't think the 360 could pull off many complex games at 1080p.

lossless audio for games? a total non point. same with 1080p for games as the only tite slated for 1080p that is up and running is gthd which is a ps2 port. what a joke.
------

...why does 1080p matter? I thought we have long established that for most people (ie sets under 60") 1080i and p are indestinguishable. also keep in mind the people that this is marketed to probably don't have the greatest gear. so why are we splitting hairs over this? if anything I think ms is falling into the sony low road of hyping things that don't even matter or aren't really true yet can be in a skued way.

already 3 1080p games for the PS3.. It is very true :D

Lair
Virtua Tennis 3
Gran Turismo PS3

Here is snippet for lair :p

http://ps3.ign.com/articles/733/733921p5.html

IGN: What are your thoughts on 1080p? You're rendering some stuff out at that resolution now, do you think it's necessary for games to be standardized as 1080p and is it doable?

Eggebrecht: First of all, we are not only rendering some part of Lair in 1080p. The whole game is in 1080p native, from front-end to all in-game bits.

We absolutely love 1080p because of the detail that you can see. When we went up from 720 to 1080 I was blown away how much more of the artwork was visible. We started out being true 720p proponents, but since switching over to true 1080p via HDMI a few months ago I can't go back.
Lair is not upscaling or cheating to get to 1080p, we are natively running at the full 1920x1080 progressive resolution. Earlier this year we were quite skeptical if that would be possible, but the final kits really were a revelation in terms of power. Sony delivered what they promised and after a bit of tweaking we had the game up-and running. One thing that did help us was that our engine always was heavily reliant on data streaming, so the larger frame buffer memory never was an issue. By now half of our staff has 1080p monitors, and believe me, the 720 guys are jealous.

http://ps3media.ign.com/ps3/image/article/733/733921/lair-20060921042448568.jpg

hopefully the recent ps3 news will force ms to make a 360 with internal hd dvd and hdmi 1.3

It's not the triple-core processor (the CPU) that decides 1080p.. it is the amount of video memory and the GPU that decides if a console can do 1080p and using what complexity of games. I don't think either Xbox360 or PS3 can render games like Crysis at 1080p.

P.S. I am a MS fan (not a 'fanboy') and have an Xbox and an Xbox360, but I don't think the 360 could pull off many complex games at 1080p.

I stand corrected thanks for the input

already 3 1080p games for the PS3.. It is very true :D

Lair
Virtua Tennis 3
Gran Turismo PS3


So? I don't mean to be rude, but the 360 already has lots of games that natively render at 1920x1080. They will automatically become "1080P" the second MS puts out their dashboard update. You see, developers don't specify "1080i" or "1080p" when making a game, they specify a framebuffer size to natively render the game at, and the video scaler determines what goes out the video port. If the user has selected 1080i and the game only supports 1280x720 (again, there is no "I" or "P" as far as the game is concerned), the scaler takes care of that. Now in theory the developer could only ever support a 1920x1080 framebuffer the scaler would scale it down to 720P or 480i or whatever, but that is unlikely.
Some games that already support "1080P" (just looking at games near my desk)
Call of Duty 2
Dead or Alive 4
Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

Many (perhaps most) Xbox Live Arcade titles support 1920x1080. They also support 4:3 High-def modes via the VGA output which is not surprising since many XBLA games have PC origins and their developers are used to supporting a variety of resolutions.
I'd guess that Virtual Tennis 3 for the 360 will also since it is much easier to get 1920x1080 to run at an acceptable rate on the 360 than on the PS3. I know because I make cross platform console games for a living and have done next gen games. If you look in the GT4 and Lair game shots (not the pre-rendered video stills, but the actual in-game shots with the HUD) you'll see a lot of aliasing. The PS3 doesn't have a nearly-free anti-aliasing solution like the 360 (anti-aliasing is mandatory on the 360, btw), so you'll not likely see anti-aliasing any PS3 1080 games except maybe some their Mahjong titles. Given that 1280x720 with anti-aliasing looks as good if not better (engineers love to argue this point) than 1920x1080 without, if anti-aliasing is not an option (and it is horribly expensive on the PS3's RSX), they will go for 1280x720 since you get back more precious VRAM. For me, "1080P" with regards to PS3 games is something of a dubious bullet-point. Not quite "blast processing" but it certainly isn't the Holy Grail either.

So? I don't mean to be rude, but the 360 already has lots of games that natively render at 1920x1080. They will automatically become "1080P" the second MS puts out their dashboard update. You see, developers don't specify "1080i" or "1080p" when making a game, they specify a framebuffer size to natively render the game at, and the video scaler determines what goes out the video port. If the user has selected 1080i and the game only supports 1280x720 (again, there is no "I" or "P" as far as the game is concerned), the scaler takes care of that. Now in theory the developer could only ever support a 1920x1080 framebuffer the scaler would scale it down to 720P or 480i or whatever, but that is unlikely.
Some games that already support "1080P" (just looking at games near my desk)
Call of Duty 2
Dead or Alive 4
Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

Many (perhaps most) Xbox Live Arcade titles support 1920x1080. They also support 4:3 High-def modes via the VGA output which is not surprising since many XBLA games have PC origins and their developers are used to supporting a variety of resolutions.
I'd guess that Virtual Tennis 3 for the 360 will also since it is much easier to get 1920x1080 to run at an acceptable rate on the 360 than on the PS3. I know because I make cross platform console games for a living and have done next gen games. If you look in the GT4 and Lair game shots (not the pre-rendered video stills, but the actual in-game shots with the HUD) you'll see a lot of aliasing. The PS3 doesn't have a nearly-free anti-aliasing solution like the 360 (anti-aliasing is mandatory on the 360, btw), so you'll not likely see anti-aliasing any PS3 1080 games except maybe some their Mahjong titles.

not to be rude, but most of the info you posted isn't true.

hopefully the recent ps3 news will force ms to make a 360 with internal hd dvd and hdmi 1.3

Why, when most people buying these gaming systems have component inputs? The base of HDMI input tvs is quite small compared to those who have HD sets with component inputs. And there is no difference in quality between the current incarnation of HDMI and the current sets using HDMI or component.

Some of us buy for the future, not for the past.

Ummm...why not? Are you worried about taking up too much space? :rolleyes:

Um...the opposite. I'm not sure if you misread my post (which I though was pretty clear) or what but I was clearly indicating that I didn't think there was a need for a "one and only xbox 360 add-on" thread as the 360 add-on was only taking up a small part of the forum compared to other players and now we just have a mess of questions and articles thrown into one jumbled, disorganized thread when there really was absolutely no need for it.

hopefully the recent ps3 news will force ms to make a 360 with internal hd dvd and hdmi 1.3
They will! They just didn't want the info leaking out like it did, so they denied it!

Much like when the G2 players info was leaked, and they likewise killed it as well! But they still released it didn't they?

It's coming out soon. ;)

Not to be rude my self but the poster you replied to seemed to have some info to support his point can you explain what he was incorrect about or are you just a sony troll?

Not sure what sony has to do with it, but here you go:

"I don't mean to be rude, but the 360 already has lots of games that natively render at 1920x1080"

actually none at this point availabe for consumers. If I'm wrong correct me with some evidence.


They will automatically become "1080P" the second MS puts out their dashboard update.

Please explain. I'd be surprised if anybody thought this was true. Upscaled is not the same as rendered 1080p, not even remotely close.


Some games that already support "1080P" (just looking at games near my desk)
Call of Duty 2
Dead or Alive 4
Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

Many (perhaps most) Xbox Live Arcade titles support 1920x1080.

none of these currently support 1080p. If I'm wrong, prove it and back it up.

Not sure what sony has to do with it, but here you go:



actually none at this point availabe for consumers. If I'm wrong correct me with some evidence.



Please explain. I'd be surprised if anybody thought this was true. Upscaled is not the same as rendered 1080p, not even remotely close.




none of these currently support 1080p. If I'm wrong, prove it and back it up.

I didn't say he was right but its kind of trolly ,if thats a word, to simply say uh your wrong. Personally I don't belive that any current xbox games will render at 1080p.

Originally Posted by gatti-man
lossless audio for games? a total non point. same with 1080p for games as the only tite slated for 1080p that is up and running is gthd which is a ps2 port. what a joke.
------

...why does 1080p matter? I thought we have long established that for most people (ie sets under 60") 1080i and p are indestinguishable. also keep in mind the people that this is marketed to probably don't have the greatest gear. so why are we splitting hairs over this? if anything I think ms is falling into the sony low road of hyping things that don't even matter or aren't really true yet can be in a skued way.

Gatti-man, I was wrong, my apologies :o

"TGS 2006: Six 1080p Games Playable on PS3 " (http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3153941)

I don't care much about 1080p (since my hdtv supports only 1080i) but what about true hd and dolby digital plus, does anybody knows if the sound is gonna be downgraded to dts via optical? or there's gonna be some kind of analogue out support?

I think a lot of the posts here have nothing to do with HD DVD add on for xbox360. Can they be deleted ?

Not sure what sony has to do with it, but here you go:



actually none at this point availabe for consumers. If I'm wrong correct me with some evidence.



Please explain. I'd be surprised if anybody thought this was true. Upscaled is not the same as rendered 1080p, not even remotely close.




none of these currently support 1080p. If I'm wrong, prove it and back it up.

Brian,

An email response from Bethesda says the Oblivion will be 1080p once the update is released and that the original poster was correct. The game was made rendered in 1920x1080.

Brian,

An email response from Bethesda says the Oblivion will be 1080p once the update is released and that the original poster was correct. The game was made rendered in 1920x1080.


hmm ... appologies would be nice !! :p

it seems more likely that XBox 360's games will be rendered at 1080p before PS3 hits the market !! And all this while, it was PS3 that hyped 1080p games !! :D

why was MS quite about the ability of XBox 360 doing 1080p and the fact that some of 360 games are rendered in 1080p. Sony were hyping 50GB ROM years before there are out. So are BD-Live and BD-J.

I disagree. Education would make over priced 1080p products look "silly". XBox 360 add on will do 1080p rendering.

Actually it's the software update that will add 1080p rendering, with or without the addon.

Please explain. I'd be surprised if anybody thought this was true. Upscaled is not the same as rendered 1080p, not even remotely close.

none of these currently support 1080p. If I'm wrong, prove it and back it up.

it seems more likely that XBox 360's games will be rendered at 1080p before PS3 hits the market !! And all this while, it was PS3 that hyped 1080p games !!

why was MS quite about the ability of XBox 360 doing 1080p and the fact that some of 360 games are rendered in 1080p. Sony were hyping 50GB ROM years before there are out. So are BD-Live and BD-J.


The problem here, is exactly what I posted earlier which is that understanding the difference between 1080 "i" and 1080 "p" is too much of a technical distinctiion for most consumers to appreciate.

As far 'education', he gave a pretty clear explanation but even a savvy consumer like Brian apparently didn't fully 'get' the poster's original point and therefore is not accurately representing what the poster asserted.

So? I don't mean to be rude, but the 360 already has lots of games that natively render at 1920x1080. They will automatically become "1080P" the second MS puts out their dashboard update.

You see, developers don't specify "1080i" or "1080p" when making a game, they specify a framebuffer size to natively render the game at, and the video scaler determines what goes out the video port.

He is saying that the "p" and "i" are not relevant to the game rendering itself, only the lines of resolution that are to be sent to the frame buffer. So the assertion he's making is that some 360 games are already rendering 1080 lines of vertical resolution x 1920 horizontal pixel.

So in this the case the actual "resolution" of the games are the same for 1080i or 1080p because it is a matter of how the 360 reconstructs and sends what is in the frame buffer, to the display. So when the update is done the same 1080x1920 lines will be sent progressively rather than interlaced and "voila!" 360 will have 1080p games.

BTW, since modern hdtv's pretty much all reconstruct the signal in some "progressive" manner anyway before displaying it (eg. line doubling, de-interlacing) this is why I said the difference between "p" and "i' is more about marketing now then it ever was in the 480p vs 480i days.

This distinction is also hard for consumers to know because 360 games don't list the actual rendering resolution on the box, they only list the supported output resolutions after scaling: 480p/720p/1080i So if a game is 1080i as the poster asserted we all pretty much assume it was rendered at 720 like "all" other 360 games. Evidently this is not the case and that is the poster's point.

Again, this will not fit nicely into a marketing bullet point so MS response is make sure they can say "1080p, true HD" just like the other guy ;)

I hope they bundle this dashboard update with the player as well. Not everyone has live.

Thanks for the feedback...don't worry :)

Interesting that this is concerning being that you do seem to have an internet connection. As others have mentioned Xbox Live Silver is free, however to get system updates you don't even need to have an Xbox Live account. If you try to sign up for Xbox Live w/o the latest update you must accept the latest update before beginning the signup process.

The problem here, is exactly what I posted earlier which is that understanding the difference between 1080 "i" and 1080 "p" is too much of a technical distinctiion for most consumers to appreciate.

As far 'education', he gave a pretty clear explanation but even a savvy consumer like Brian apparently didn't fully 'get' the poster's original point and therefore is not accurately representing what the poster asserted.

He is saying that the "p" and "i" are not relevant to the game rendering itself, only the lines of resolution that are to be sent to the frame buffer. So the assertion he's making is that some 360 games are already rendering 1080 lines of vertical resolution x 1920 horizontal pixel.

Again, this will not fit nicely into a marketing bullet point so MS response is make sure they can say "1080p, true HD" just like the other guy ;)

and

You see, developers don't specify "1080i" or "1080p" when making a game, they specify a framebuffer size to natively render the game at, and the video scaler determines what goes out the video port.

strange .. dont PS3 game developers included. So why Sony claim PS3 will do 1080p all this while?

because a few PS3 games are being created in native 1920x1080/60p not just 1920x1080/60i or lower to be converted to 1920x1080/60p by the display or console hardware

because a few PS3 games are being created in native 1920x1080/60p not just 1920x1080/60i or lower to be converted to 1920x1080/60p by the display or console hardware

You might want to holdoff on that claim until the games hit the shelves, and then see if they are still rendered natively at 1080p - and not upscaled at the output from a sub 1080i/p resolution. It is widely believed that both the Xbox360 and the PS3 do not have enough horsepower to render 1080/60p natively with decent FSAA and AF. There are workarounds, but it woul be interesting how fast the developers master these. For now, let's lay off the PR propaganda until a game streets, and we can get framebuffer dumps to give us the native resolution of these games.

Brian,

An email response from Bethesda says the Oblivion will be 1080p once the update is released and that the original poster was correct. The game was made rendered in 1920x1080.

Thanks for the info. Again, I was just wanting some information (hence the correct me if I'm wrong) and hope you didn't take it as a personal attack :)

That is one game though and you said currently (not future) xbox360 has lots of games that render at 1920x1080. Maybe I just haven't seen it but I though MS said most were 720 the "sweet spot". I also am curious as to how all these games will become 1080p with the update, again scaling isn't the same as rendering. So what would happen with something like PGR3 that isn't even rendering at 720p while racing? Will the framerate drop even more? Again, I haven't seen any evidence for a some of the other claims you've made .

Thanks for the info. Again, I was just wanting some information (hence the correct me if I'm wrong) and hope you didn't take it as a personal attack :)

That is one game though and you said currently (not future) xbox360 has lots of games that render at 1920x1080. Maybe I just haven't seen it but I though MS said most were 720 the "sweet spot". I also am curious as to how all these games will become 1080p with the update, again scaling isn't the same as rendering. So what would happen with something like PGR3 that isn't even rendering at 720p while racing? Will the framerate drop even more? Again, I haven't seen any evidence for a some of the other claims you've made .

FWIW, Joystiq also said that DMC4 demo at TGS was running below 720p natively, and I expect this to be the case most of the time, where the games might be rendered at 720p and then upscaled to the output resolution of 1080i or 720p.

And IIRC, PGR3 game engine was set in stone long before the Xbox360 hardware was finalized, and hence they could not rewrite their game engine to make advantage of tiled rendering [required by the 360 to render full 720p/1080i with FSAA], and still make the launch date with the console. I expect PGR4 to take full advantage of 1080 rendering with aroung 2xFSAA and some sort of AF.

There needs to be a clear separation between games at 1080p and HD-DVD's at 1080P. To equate that the Xbox 360 has problems ruining games at 1080P so there for it a push for HD-DVD also is just flat out wrong. The only reason the Xbox 360 has problems is because of the graphics Processing Unit trying to keep up with that high of a resolution and appyling all of the graphic processing and tricks wich can take and ungodly amount of processing power to do at 1080P. Where the HD-DVD is just read off the disk and the 1:1 pixels are decoded and placed in their position. It does take some juice to decode the HD-DVD format but the XBOX 360 has more than enough to do so and the out RGB/Component has plenty of bandwith. If there is any reason the 360 has problem with HD-DVD is has nothing to do with processing power whatsoever.

This is the ONE and ONLY

XBOX as an HD DVD Player Thread: limit discussions to this thread title

Any other XBOX discussions should be posted on the gaming forum: NOT on this forum

Thanks :)
And there will be only one PS3 thread in BD forum also. Correct?

It looks like AVS forum members opinions are now being taken as facts on the internet. This information below was posted on joystiq.com from a post from amirim.


If your 360 is hooked up via component cables:

Xbox 360 games can be upscaled to 1080p. Titles that run in 1080p natively (none of which currently exist) will also display without a problem.
HD-DVDs will display at 1080i maximum -- you can thank AACS for that.
Normal DVDs will play at 480p. CSS prevents anything higher (though some upscaling DVD players conveniently ignore it).

If your 360 is hooked up via VGA cable:

HD-DVDs, Upscaled DVDs and games can all display at 1080p with no copyright hassles.

If your 360 is hooked up via RF Adapter:

You have bigger problems.


LINK (http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/23/microsofts-1080p-lets-you-read-the-fine-print/)

It looks like AVS forum members opinions are now being taken as facts on the internet. This information below was posted on joystiq.com from a post from amirim.



u have no idea who "AmirM" is do u? :D

u have no idea who "AmirM" is do u? :D

Hilarious. Includng the responses on joystiq that discount his input. You could at least provide a link (http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/exec/amirm/default.mspx) so he can find out.

It looks like AVS forum members opinions are now being taken as facts on the internet. This information below was posted on joystiq.com from a post from amirim.


If your 360 is hooked up via component cables:

Xbox 360 games can be upscaled to 1080p. Titles that run in 1080p natively (none of which currently exist) will also display without a problem.
HD-DVDs will display at 1080i maximum -- you can thank AACS for that.
Normal DVDs will play at 480p. CSS prevents anything higher (though some upscaling DVD players conveniently ignore it).

If your 360 is hooked up via VGA cable:

HD-DVDs, Upscaled DVDs and games can all display at 1080p with no copyright hassles.

If your 360 is hooked up via RF Adapter:

You have bigger problems.


LINK (http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/23/microsofts-1080p-lets-you-read-the-fine-print/)

Yeah, someone mentioned this very same thing in another HD 360 thread. I posted a response in that thread, but in case you missed it, here it is:

Why all the fuss? Okay so I'm probably one of the few that already have my 360 hooked up via VGA, but...

Why not simply buy the Xbox 360 VGA cable (if your going to dish out $200 for the drive, whats another $50 for the cable), and use a transcoder to turn it to component?

Then you will have full res without copy protection over component connections. An if its truly 1080p (I don't care either way at this time since my set is 720p), then with the purchase of a couple products, mostly by microsoft, you have just done what the content providers didn't want you to be able to do: Have NON copy protected, analog connections of upconverted DVDs and full 1080 resolution for HD DVD. Hey...thanks microsoft!

-Alan

Although I have an A1, I'm tempted to pick up an addon for my 360 if its cheap. Then I can move my 360 to the upstairs computer room, hook up via VGA to my 1680x1050 LCD, plug in my headphones and enjoy. I really don't get to play it much downstairs on the big TV due to kids etc, but I can lock myself away upstairs. And if I sit close enough it'll be pretty good :P

Why all the fuss? Okay so I'm probably one of the few that already have my 360 hooked up via VGA, but...

Why not simply buy the Xbox 360 VGA cable (if your going to dish out $200 for the drive, whats another $50 for the cable), and use a transcoder to turn it to component?

-Alan

I am wondering why there is a such a fuss too. I've seen all kinds of rants on forums complaining about 1080p not being supported over component but nobody is even mentioning the availability of the 360 VGA cable so the rumors are spreading that the 1080p update by microsoft is basically useless and a scam.

Another thing I find kind of amuzing, is people should take this product for what it is: An inexpensive alternative to those who already own 360s to get into HD DVD. This player isn't meant to best the HD-XA1 I'm sure. I'll probably bet its intended audience is the "bang for the buck" folks.

-Alan

One thing I am wondering about with the launch of the 360 HD-DVD player is how many units can Microsoft actually produce? I would imagine supplies of the players will be extremely limited since blue laser diodes are in very short supply. Sony and Nichia are the only manufacturers of blue laser diodes and are having huge shortages (on reason for the PS3 delay in Europe). If Sony, who actually manufactures the diodes, has to delay their own console due to diode shortages then how is MS going to be able to make any significant number of players when they are dependant on buying the diodes from Sony and Nichia? I think there will be huge demand for the player but very limited market penetration simply due to limited quantities available.

One thing I am wondering about with the launch of the 360 HD-DVD player is how many units can Microsoft actually produce? I would imagine supplies of the players will be extremely limited since blue laser diodes are in very short supply. Sony and Nichia are the only manufacturers of blue laser diodes and are having huge shortages (on reason for the PS3 delay in Europe).

This is taking on the proportions of an urban legend.

Sanyo is a big supplier of diodes and can be (are being ?) used in HD DVD drives. Only BD is tied to Sony/Nichia.

I am wondering why there is a such a fuss too. I've seen all kinds of rants on forums complaining about 1080p not being supported over component but nobody is even mentioning the availability of the 360 VGA cable so the rumors are spreading that the 1080p update by microsoft is basically useless and a scam.


It's not useless or a scam.......Just not the greatest thing without HDMI.....Your display purchase is always the biggest in a multi media set up. So now you have to narrow your choices down to display's that will accept 1080P over VGA, or even have a VGA input. That is becoming rare as HDMI is clearly the standard. That just isn't the way it is supposed to work, the big thing being influenced by the capabilities of the little thing. Never mind the Audio issues you miss out on. MS knows this and I just wish they would say there isn't going to be HDMI. I own a 360 and am an MS supporter with the games, but I am also a realist, in that MS really screwed the immediate and long term pooch with no HDMI......I can understand and am fine with no built in HD-DVD drive, but they could have done HDMI and then with this add on they could have had a system that could stand Toe to Toe on specs with the PS3. I am just getting a little tired of MS downplaying the HDMI. Right now if the PS3 comes out with the bugs worked out and the specs aren't downgraded any further, then yes PS3 has a technological advantage over MS, and I think it will get bigger next year and 3 years from now!

The perception is already out in the market on the superiority of 1080p over 1080i. There is no way that technical explanations of how 1080i will usually produce the same exact PQ as 1080p will get across to most consumer.

Other then telling them "it's virtually the same, come see". The issue is the seller isn't trying to educate them, they are trying to sell them more hardware.

This is taking on the proportions of an urban legend.

Sanyo is a big supplier of diodes and can be (are being ?) used in HD DVD drives. Only BD is tied to Sony/Nichia.

That's whats so confusing to me. Who manufactures the diodes (Sony, Nichia, Sanyo, Sharp? who else?) and who supplies the diodes to which HD-DVD or blu-ray player makers?

I own a 360 and am an MS supporter with the games, but I am also a realist, in that MS really screwed the immediate and long term pooch with no HDMI......

Well, MS will probably come out with an HDMI cable for the 360 pretty soon. They're probably having to work out details with the AACS on it since it won't be true "HDMI". It will most likely not be HDPC compliant but this shouldn't prevent it from playing full res HD-DVD movies for quite some time until HDCP security starts being required (most likely not until 2012 or so).

They're probably having to work out details with the AACS on it since it won't be true "HDMI". It will most likely not be HDPC compliant but this shouldn't prevent it from playing full res HD-DVD movies for quite some time until HDCP security starts being required (most likely not until 2012 or so).

This is dead wrong. Digital output needs to be secure - which means HDCP now.

Other then telling them "it's virtually the same, come see". The issue is the seller isn't trying to educate them, they are trying to sell them more hardware.

I agree. The entire HD industry is poised to sell new equipment based on the virtues of 1080p and even HDMI despite the fact that 95% or more consumers will see no difference whatsoever from 1080i to 1080p and HDMI's biggest benefit is in DRM moreso than for the consumer.

At least HDMI brings the enhanced sound capabilities although even that is a somewhat manufactured benefit thanks to license restrictions on other digital Audio connections and requires new equipment (suprise!). :rolleyes:

Tallen94's post though does have some indications that he *could* be an insider including the fact he list Dead Or Alive 4 as a 1920x1080 native 360 game and it so happens that Itagaki said in an interview that the goal for DoA4 was 1920x1080/60fps. Not sure, if the release game reached that target though, so I'll have to dig a bit...

Sorry if this has already been discussed.

Will the add-on be able to upconvert my home movies and backed-up dvds over component since they are not copy protected? I know the only way to upconvert commercial dvds is with the VGA cable, but I haven't heard anything about home movies.

Thanks for the help.

That's whats so confusing to me. Who manufactures the diodes (Sony, Nichia, Sanyo, Sharp? who else?) and who supplies the diodes to which HD-DVD or blu-ray player makers?

Starting reading here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8381945&&#post8381945
including the links for some answers.

Bob

So? I don't mean to be rude, but the 360 already has lots of games that natively render at 1920x1080. They will automatically become "1080P" the second MS puts out their dashboard update.

You see, developers don't specify "1080i" or "1080p" when making a game, they specify a framebuffer size to natively render the game at, and the video scaler determines what goes out the video port. If the user has selected 1080i and the game only supports 1280x720 (again, there is no "I" or "P" as far as the game is concerned), the scaler takes care of that. Now in theory the developer could only ever support a 1920x1080 framebuffer the scaler would scale it down to 720P or 480i or whatever, but that is unlikely.

Some games that already support "1080P" (just looking at games near my desk)
Call of Duty 2
Dead or Alive 4
Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

Many (perhaps most) Xbox Live Arcade titles support 1920x1080. They also support 4:3 High-def modes via the VGA output which is not surprising since many XBLA games have PC origins and their developers are used to supporting a variety of resolutions.
I'd guess that Virtual Tennis 3 for the 360 will also since it is much easier to get 1920x1080 to run at an acceptable rate on the 360 than on the PS3. I know because I make cross platform console games for a living and have done next gen games.

If you look in the GT4 and Lair game shots (not the pre-rendered video stills, but the actual in-game shots with the HUD) you'll see a lot of aliasing. The PS3 doesn't have a nearly-free anti-aliasing solution like the 360 (anti-aliasing is mandatory on the 360, btw), so you'll not likely see anti-aliasing any PS3 1080 games except maybe some their Mahjong titles. Given that 1280x720 with anti-aliasing looks as good if not better (engineers love to argue this point) than 1920x1080 without, if anti-aliasing is not an option (and it is horribly expensive on the PS3's RSX), they will go for 1280x720 since you get back more precious VRAM.

For me, "1080P" with regards to PS3 games is something of a dubious bullet-point. Not quite "blast processing" but it certainly isn't the Holy Grail either.

I'm actually fairly suprised how much emphasis is being given to "1080p" over "1080i" even on a board as sophisticated as AVS, esp. for games where clearly games like Resident evil on GC, Ninja Gaiden on Xbox 1 and GoW on PS2 blew away all the higher resolution games visually in current-gen. Graphic quality is much more than resolution.

Even for movies most professionals admit to barely being able to distinguish 1080i from 1080p visually on a modern display (which all display progressively in one form or the other anyway so the original 'interlace' is barely a factor). Most admit that to "see" 1080i vs 1080p from the signal they need a massive projector sized display screen and even then it's limited to 'minor' artifacting at best?

Is this much ado about nothing or am I missing something?
Never underestimate the power of marketing spin.

It looks like AVS forum members opinions are now being taken as facts on the internet. This information below was posted on joystiq.com from a post from amirim.


If your 360 is hooked up via component cables:

Xbox 360 games can be upscaled to 1080p. Titles that run in 1080p natively (none of which currently exist) will also display without a problem.
HD-DVDs will display at 1080i maximum -- you can thank AACS for that.
Normal DVDs will play at 480p. CSS prevents anything higher (though some upscaling DVD players conveniently ignore it).

If your 360 is hooked up via VGA cable:

HD-DVDs, Upscaled DVDs and games can all display at 1080p with no copyright hassles.

If your 360 is hooked up via RF Adapter:

You have bigger problems.


LINK (http://www.joystiq.com/2006/09/23/microsofts-1080p-lets-you-read-the-fine-print/)

Does this mean then that movies via component will also be able to be displayed at 720p (the max for my TV anyway)? He says 1080i, so I am assuming anything below that is fair game. If so, sweet deal, I will probably get this over the Toshiba because I am not happy with VGA on my TV (I tried it this weekend, did not turn out to good).

I'm actually fairly suprised how much emphasis is being given to "1080p" over "1080i" even on a board as sophisticated as AVS, esp. for games where clearly games like Resident evil on GC, Ninja Gaiden on Xbox 1 and GoW on PS2 blew away all the higher resolution games visually in current-gen. Graphic quality is much more than resolution.

Even for movies most professionals admit to barely being able to distinguish 1080i from 1080p visually on a modern display (which all display progressively in one form or the other anyway so the original 'interlace' is barely a factor). Most admit that to "see" 1080i vs 1080p from the signal they need a massive projector sized display screen and even then it's limited to 'minor' artifacting at best?

Is this much ado about nothing or am I missing something?
Never underestimate the power of marketing spin.

It is because you really only benefit from 1080p at certain distances. 1080p allows you to sit much closer to the TV without seeing the pixel/blocks. It is smoother, from 15' away (depending on screen size) you do not see this anyway so it is not as beneficial. This has been argues to death in the Plasma forum and the result is basically the same (what I just said).

It is because you really only benefit from 1080p at certain distances.

No. It is because people are often confusing resolution on the display with resolution at the transmitter. You don't see difference from the display because there is no difference to begin with. 1080i60 transfer the same 1080p/24/30i as 1080p60 did.

So? I don't mean to be rude, but the 360 already has lots of games that natively render at 1920x1080. They will automatically become "1080P" the second MS puts out their dashboard update. You see, developers don't specify "1080i" or "1080p" when making a game, they specify a framebuffer size to natively render the game at, and the video scaler determines what goes out the video port. If the user has selected 1080i and the game only supports 1280x720 (again, there is no "I" or "P" as far as the game is concerned), the scaler takes care of that. Now in theory the developer could only ever support a 1920x1080 framebuffer the scaler would scale it down to 720P or 480i or whatever, but that is unlikely.
Some games that already support "1080P" (just looking at games near my desk)
Call of Duty 2
Dead or Alive 4
Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion

This is a really interesting post and it makes sense in that I was taking HD captures of Dead of Alive 4 the other day at 1280x720 and 1360x768 and I could see NO evidence of upscaling whatsoever. If both resolutions are actually being downscaled, that's pretty astonishing - but would make sense.

I am guessing that were I take screenshots of those games using Xbox Neighborhood, I would see the native resolution of the game? It was using precisely this technique that Project Gotham 3 rendering at 1024x600 was found out.

This is a really interesting post and it makes sense in that I was taking HD captures of Dead of Alive 4 the other day at 1280x720 and 1360x768 and I could see NO evidence of upscaling whatsoever. If both resolutions are actually being downscaled, that's pretty astonishing - but would make sense.

I am guessing that were I take screenshots of those games using Xbox Neighborhood, I would see the native resolution of the game? It was using precisely this technique that Project Gotham 3 rendering at 1024x600 was found out.

Ahh yes, the XDK. I have it for the Xbox1, that is a good way test it. So you have the 360 XDK then? Test and tell us then, :)

If it's true that those games are rendering at 1920x1080 then I'd have to say that MS's marketers are getting beat by Sony's marketers pretty soundly because they should be spinning it along with the whole 1080p announcement. After this update, the following 360 games will give you instant "tru hd" at 1080p.....

If it's true that those games are rendering at 1920x1080 then I'd have to say that MS's marketers are getting beat by Sony's marketers pretty soundly because they should be spinning it along with the whole 1080p announcement. After this update, the following 360 games will give you instant "tru hd" at 1080p.....

The games probably don't render @ 1920x1080 it's probably something in between like 1024x768 or 1280x1024 so couldn't be classified as pure 1080p. Also, it may be that most of those games will be too slow on the 360 to play at that resolution so MS doesn't want to get people too excited.

I don't have the XDK to hand - however, I do have a phenomenally powered HD capture system that can capture at any resolution up to 1920x1200, a retail Xbox 360, VGA cable, and Dead or Alive 4 demo :D

The only way right now to get big resolution from Xbox 360 is to use 1280x1024 and set it to Widescreen mode. So effectively we're getting 1024p - not that far off 1080p, and tons more vertical resolution than 720p. So any vertical scaling should be obvious to behold.

Here's (http://www.digitalfoundry.org/images/1.jpg) a capture of the DOA4 demo running in this resolution. The only scaling artefacts I'm seeing are horizontal in nature due to a 16:9 image running in a 4:3 resolution.

This (http://www.digitalfoundry.org/images/2.jpg) is that same image rescaled to widescreen in Photoshop - 1860x1024 (not a million miles away from 1920x1080). Obviously it's been scaled a fair bit horizontally but it still looks better than 720p.

Here (http://www.digitalfoundry.org/images/3.jpg) is image 1 scaled to 1280x720. It definitely looks to me like resolution has been lost...

Finally, This one (http://www.digitalfoundry.org/images/4.jpg) is the 720p image scaled back up to 1860x1024, ie to match image 2. Looks a bit fuzzier, but the difference is not as pronounced as I would hope.

So far from conclusive but I'd say that there is a some merit to this story that the 360 already has a catalogue of 1080p titles. And if it is just good scaling... well, then the 360 has a very nice scaler.

If any one wants TIFF versions of these files, please PM me with an FTP address and I'll upload them for you. In the meantime, I'll see about the resolution these games produce when the framebuffer itself is dumped. That's the only way to be sure.

I currently have a Samsung TV that can only do 1080p through its VGA port. From what I read, the HD-DVD player will do 1080p movies with the cable?

Even for movies most professionals admit to barely being able to distinguish 1080i from 1080p visually on a modern display (which all display progressively in one form or the other anyway so the original 'interlace' is barely a factor). Most admit that to "see" 1080i vs 1080p from the signal they need a massive projector sized display screen and even then it's limited to 'minor' artifacting at best?

Is this much ado about nothing or am I missing something?
Never underestimate the power of marketing spin.


for movies, I agree with you. properly handled, 1080i output is as good as 1080p.

But for games, 1080p can have a benefit if its 1080p/60. You're getting 1080p screens, 60 times a second. With movies you're always limited to the origina 24fps signal, so 1080p/60 is almost irrelevant.

Of course, lots of Xbox 360 games are only 30fps, so perhaps they'll run in 1080i/60 and be deinterlaced to 1080p on the TV or in the Xbox. So effectively you're back to square one where the 1080p/60 is just being delivered from a 1080i/60 (or 1080p/30 equivalent) source, much like movies.


Most of this is just marketing nonsense considering how many 1080p displays there are out there, and how close you have to be to discern any difference from a 720p native set. Effectively this is just good for people watching on 1080p front projectors from 1 screen width away. Quite a small percentage really.

Is this much ado about nothing or am I missing something?
Never underestimate the power of marketing spin.


for movies, I agree with you. properly handled, 1080i output is as good as 1080p.

But for games, 1080p can have a benefit if its 1080p/60. You're getting 1080p screens, 60 times a second. With movies you're always limited to the origina 24fps signal, so 1080p/60 is almost irrelevant.

Of course, lots of Xbox 360 games are only 30fps. So effectively you're back to square one where the 1080p/60 is just being delivered from a 1080p/30 source and frame doubled, much like movies.


Most of this is just marketing nonsense considering how many 1080p displays there are out there, and how close you have to be to discern any difference from a 720p native set. Effectively this is just good for people watching on 1080p front projectors from 1 screen width away. Quite a small percentage really.

Its a bit like the digital camera megapixel race. More must be better, right? Well yes, but with diminishing returns. If you only ever print 6x4s, you don't need all those pixels. Same with an average sized TV

Ahh yes, the XDK. I have it for the Xbox1, that is a good way test it. So you have the 360 XDK then? Test and tell us then, :)

If it's true that those games are rendering at 1920x1080 then I'd have to say that MS's marketers are getting beat by Sony's marketers pretty soundly because they should be spinning it along with the whole 1080p announcement. After this update, the following 360 games will give you instant "tru hd" at 1080p.....

Unfortunately, I think the poster of the 1080p information has got it wrong. In the cold light of day, the DOA4 shots just look like very good scaling - image 1 in my previous post shows a very nice image, but it definitely looks like it is being scaled to me.

I did a dump of Call of Duty's 2 framebuffer and it's 720p all the way. So is Dead or Alive 4.

Oblivion is such a graphically intensive game that it would make sense for the framebuffer to be 720p as opposed to taking the performance hit of running internally at 1080p.

The notion of a ready-made library of 1080p games does sound like a great headline, but it's just not true at the moment. I think that the scaled image will look superb though so it's not all bad news.

Unfortunately, I think the poster of the 1080p information has got it wrong. In the cold light of day, the DOA4 shots just look like very good scaling - image 1 in my previous post shows a very nice image, but it definitely looks like it is being scaled to me.

I did a dump of Call of Duty's 2 framebuffer and it's 720p all the way. So is Dead or Alive 4.

Oblivion is such a graphically intensive game that it would make sense for the framebuffer to be 720p as opposed to taking the performance hit of running internally at 1080p.

The notion of a ready-made library of 1080p games does sound like a great headline, but it's just not true at the moment. I think that the scaled image will look superb though so it's not all bad news.

Thx for investigating the claim, it's nice to know and it's something that really should be on label of the game as opposed to the fairly meaningless scalable resolutions that are there now. I suppose those labels serve the purpose of assuring consumers that the game will work with their HDTV :cool:

The real value here for either side is almost entirely a marketing advantage:





for movies, I agree with you. properly handled, 1080i output is as good as 1080p.

But for games, 1080p can have a benefit if its 1080p/60. You're getting 1080p screens, 60 times a second. With movies you're always limited to the origina 24fps signal, so 1080p/60 is almost irrelevant.

Of course, lots of Xbox 360 games are only 30fps. So effectively you're back to square one where the 1080p/60 is just being delivered from a 1080p/30 source and frame doubled, much like movies.


Most of this is just marketing nonsense considering how many 1080p displays there are out there, and how close you have to be to discern any difference from a 720p native set. Effectively this is just good for people watching on 1080p front projectors from 1 screen width away.

Quite a small percentage really.

Exactly. Even for those with the 1080p displays the 1080i should translate almost flawlessly to 1080p I would think, esp. since it's digital data over hdmi.

Even the minor fps advantage is likely to be very rare one since very few games will do 1080p/60 and even the perception of 30fps vs 60fps is debated and considered useful only in certain fast moving games.

In those cases with performance being an issue overall I'd think developers would usually choose 720p anyway. I played GTHD on PS3 at E3 and any value gained from being 1080p was easily overwhelmed by the overall sparseness of activity and general blandness of the action.

Of course that's an early version of the game but another dev there told me similar issue of dealing with a "trade off" on their game's overall performance in order to get the 1080p bullet point.

Unfortunately, I think the poster of the 1080p information has got it wrong. In the cold light of day, the DOA4 shots just look like very good scaling - image 1 in my previous post shows a very nice image, but it definitely looks like it is being scaled to me.

I did a dump of Call of Duty's 2 framebuffer and it's 720p all the way. So is Dead or Alive 4.

Oblivion is such a graphically intensive game that it would make sense for the framebuffer to be 720p as opposed to taking the performance hit of running internally at 1080p.

The notion of a ready-made library of 1080p games does sound like a great headline, but it's just not true at the moment. I think that the scaled image will look superb though so it's not all bad news.

Thank you. I did ask that person who made the claims that " the 360 already has lots of games that natively render at 1920x1080. " for some evidence and he never did. Your info on those games contradicts what he said as well.

There is a HD-DVD experience tour going around. Can anyone who has seen this drive in action comment on it's performance? I am trying so hard to hold out but I'm starting to break!

Latest RUMOR:

$199 Nov 24.

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/showpost.php?p=839187&postcount=66

Latest RUMOR:

$199 Nov 24.
Hope this is true. would be a great price! Anyone seen it running?

There is a HD-DVD experience tour going around. Can anyone who has seen this drive in action comment on it's performance? I am trying so hard to hold out but I'm starting to break!

If no one else responds, I'm going to see the mobile truck at the Mall of America
on Sept 29th. I'm also going to see if they will let me insert a homebrew hd-dvd
to verify it will play those.

If anyone else is going on Friday, they are giving away a free gift:

http://www.lookandsoundofperfect.com/_pdf/hddvd_vippass.pdf

If no one else responds, I'm going to see the mobile truck at the Mall of America
on Sept 29th. I'm also going to see if they will let me insert a homebrew hd-dvd
to verify it will play those.

If anyone else is going on Friday, they are giving away a free gift:

http://www.lookandsoundofperfect.com/_pdf/hddvd_vippass.pdf
Please PM me when you post your comments!

Anyone seen it running?

It was (I was told) shown at our company meeting last week ... I'm yet to check the recording.

"Most Affordable Way for Xbox 360 Owners to Jump Into the Next-Generation of DVD At X06, exciting details about the highly anticipated Xbox 360 HD DVD Player were also revealed. Available in mid-November 2006 in North America for $199.99 (estimated retail price)*, in the U.K., France and Germany for €199.99 (£129.99) (estimated retail price)* and other territories in 2007, the Xbox 360 HD DVD Player comes with the Universal Pictures blockbuster film Peter Jackson's "King Kong" on HD DVD (for a limited time) and the Xbox 360 Universal Media Remote."

^^ link pls ...

^^ link pls ...

It's all hearsay, but I got this at ps3forums

Taken from another forum so take it for it's worth!


Quote:

Barcelona, Spain—On the shores of one of the world's most artistic and progressive cities, Microsoft Corp. today thrilled attendees at its annual X06 event by inviting everyone to experience the next generation now on the Xbox 360™ system. The announcements and hands-on gameplay experiences highlight how the world's greatest game creators are pushing the boundaries of what is possible in high definition and online storytelling. Highlights of the announcements included the following:


• A landmark partnership between Academy Award-winning writer,
director, and producer Peter Jackson, Academy Award-winning screenwriter Fran Walsh, and Microsoft Game Studios will create two new interactive entertainment series exclusively for Xbox 360 and Xbox Live(r). The first will be a collaborative effort with Bungie Studios to co-create the next great chapter in the Halo(r) universe. The second will be an entirely original property targeted at bringing new audiences into the captivating world of interactive entertainment. In addition, Microsoft Game Studios will partner with Jackson and Walsh to establish Wingnut Interactive, a studio dedicated to the creation of world-class interactive entertainment.

• Halo(r) Wars is an all-new real-time strategy game based on the
legendary Halo universe and designed exclusively for Xbox 360 by Ensemble Studios, creators of the Age of Empires(r) franchise.

• Rockstar and Take-Two will provide Xbox 360 gamers with exclusive
access to two epic downloadable episodes of Grand Theft Auto IV via Xbox Live, each with hours of new gameplay content, and available only on Xbox 360 just months after the release of the title.

• Ubisoft confirmed that the next Splinter Cell title, the installment
after Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell(r) Double Agent™, will be exclusive to Xbox 360, a testament to the ability of the powerful next-gen game console to deliver experiences no other console can match.

• 2K Games confirmed that BioShock, a first person shooter that will
revolutionize the genre and forever change the expectations of gamers, will be released exclusively on Xbox 360 and Microsoft(r) Windows(r) next spring.

• Project Gotham Racing(r) 4, was unveiled, the latest addition to
the best-selling franchise, made exclusively for Xbox 360 by Bizarre Creations. PGR4 promises to continue the series' pedigree of innovation by introducing exciting new experiences to racing fans worldwide.

• The beloved Banjo-Kazooie(r) franchise will breathe new,
high-definition life exclusively on Xbox 360, from famed developer Rare Ltd. Beloved characters Banjo, Kazooie and Gruntilda—among other fan favorites—will new next-gen visuals and presentation as well as their sharp wit and hilarious sense of humor.

• Microsoft Game Studios will release its highly-anticipated new MMO
game, Marvel Universe Online for both Xbox 360 and the Windows Vista™ operating system. MUO was developed by industry luminaries Cryptic Studios, creators of the smash hits City of Heroes and City of Villains.

• Expect two new additions to Xbox Live Arcade: The FPS that pioneered
the network-gaming era, DOOM(r), from acclaimed developer id Software and Activision, is available now on Xbox Live Marketplace. The game includes the original four-episode single-player game, four-player split screen action, both co-op and deathmatch, and four player co-op and deathmatch via Xbox Live. Coming soon to Xbox Live Arcade is Sensible World of Soccer from Codemasters. Based on a classic Amiga title from 1994, Sensible World of Soccer will let gamers choose between the original graphics or an updated, high-resolution look and feel—while still capturing the original game's wide world of football.

• Arriving at retailers in North America, the U.K, France and Germany
in mid-November 2006, the Xbox 360 HD DVD Player will retail for
$199.99 in North America (estimated retail price)* and €199.99/£129.99 (estimated retail price)* in the U.K., France and Germany. The Xbox 360 HD DVD Player comes with the Universal Pictures' blockbuster film Peter Jackson's "King Kong" on HD DVD (for a limited time) and the Xbox 360 Universal Media Remote.

"Xbox 360 is changing the way developers are telling stories today — from the industry's most beloved franchises to exciting new properties," said Peter Moore, corporate vice president of the Interactive Entertainment Business in the Entertainment and Devices Division at Microsoft. "We are inspiring the imaginations of the entertainment industry's best and most creative talent to take their franchises in exciting directions, while also spinning new tales for everyone."

"We are incredibly pleased to be here in Barcelona to talk about the next chapter of Xbox and how Xbox 360 continues to deliver on the promise and potential of the next generation," said Chris Lewis, regional vice president of the Home and Entertainment Division, Europe, Middle East and Africa (EMEA), at Microsoft. "As we prepare to launch some of our biggest global titles and best regional content both right now and well into the future, consumers will have much to choose from with a system designed for high-definition and online entertainment. We are the only next-generation experience that seamlessly connects players to their games, friends and entertainment content."

Xbox 360 Stretches Popular Franchises in New Directions Xbox 360 continues to expand the interactive entertainment landscape, enabling industry superstars to take beloved franchises in exciting new directions. Microsoft Game Studios announced its partnership with Peter Jackson to herald in a new age of interactive entertainment that can only be realized on Xbox 360 and Xbox Live. The goal of this partnership is to create new stories and redefine the way they are told. The first part of this long-term relationship is for Jackson, Walsh and team to bring to life two new interactive entertainment experiences exclusively for the Xbox 360 and Xbox Live. The first project is to co-write, co-design and co-produce a completely new and original chapter in the "Halo" universe in collaboration with Bungie Studios. The second project is an entirely original property from the team in New Zealand that will not only bring a whole new interactive story to life, but will also captivate new audiences that have yet to discover the power of interactive entertainment.
In addition, in collaboration with Microsoft Game Studios, Jackson and Walsh are creating Wingnut Interactive. The two will create a world-class interactive entertainment studio that fuses the strength of Microsoft's technology and interactive entertainment experience with the creative and imaginative excellence of the Wingnut Interactive team.

"Microsoft has built an amazing living canvas with Xbox 360 and Xbox Live, which allows the storytellers of our time to express themselves in a new medium. They have fundamentally changed how people think about games," Jackson said. "My vision, together with Microsoft Game Studios, is to push the boundaries of game development and the future of interactive entertainment. From a movie-maker's point of view, it is clear to me that the Xbox 360 platform is the stage where storytellers can work their craft in the same way they do today with movies and books but taking it further with interactivity."

In addition to demonstrating its leadership in the next-generation of games through exclusive alliances, Microsoft Game Studios announced "Halo Wars," an all-new real-time strategy game based on the legendary "Halo" universe and built exclusively for Xbox 360 by Ensemble Studios, the creators of the "Age of Empires" series. "Halo Wars"
places the player in command of human UNSC armies as they deploy for mankind's first deadly encounter with the enemy Covenant forces.

In addition, Microsoft Game Studios provided first details surrounding "Project Gotham Racing 4," the latest addition to the premiere racing franchise from Bizarre Creations and the reunion of Banjo, Kazooie and Gruntilda in an all-new addition to the "Banjo-Kazooie" franchise from industry veterans Rare.

Microsoft and Ubisoft announced that the next "Splinter Cell" title will be created exclusively for Xbox 360. Based on the increasingly proven potential of the Xbox 360 hardware and its online promise, Ubisoft confirmed that Xbox 360 will be the exclusive platform for the next iteration of its influential and massively popular espionage franchise. Through the power of Xbox Live, the series that revolutionized online cooperative and competitive gameplay promises to transform and modernize online gaming once again.
New details regarding the exclusive, epic episodic content for the upcoming and highly anticipated "Grand Theft Auto IV" from Rockstar and Take-Two were also revealed; Rockstar Games will offer two downloadable episodes, each with hours of entirely new gameplay, extending the experience of an already immense game. Both chapters will be exclusive and available only to Xbox 360 gamers via Xbox Live.

"Grand Theft Auto IV" will be available to Xbox 360 gamers on its first day of availability: Oct. 16, 2007, in North America and Oct.
19, 2007, in Europe.

Xbox Live Arcade made a surprise unveiling today of one of the greatest games of the 3-D era: "DOOM" (id Software) is now available for download for 800 points. The game brings legendary "DOOM" mayhem to gamers, who for the first time ever can relive the classic demon-blasting fragfest in both single-player and two-to-four player co-operative and deathmatch modes over Xbox Live. Also a new, multititle relationship with Codemasters was announced, with the first title being the classic, fast-action soccer game, "Sensible World of Soccer."

Xbox Live is a thriving online game community, connecting more than 3 million members across nearly 25 countries to enjoy hundreds of social games, as well as on-demand game demos, Xbox Live Arcade games, and music and movie content. With more than 10 million downloads to date and nearly 100 independent, classic and original development titles available by next summer, Xbox Live Arcade is a fast-growing phenomenon.
Most Affordable Way for Xbox 360 Owners to Jump Into the Next-Generation of DVD At X06, exciting details about the highly anticipated Xbox 360 HD DVD Player were also revealed. Available in mid-November 2006 in North America for $199.99 (estimated retail price)*, in the U.K., France and Germany for €199.99 (£129.99) (estimated retail price)* and other territories in 2007, the Xbox 360 HD DVD Player comes with the Universal Pictures blockbuster film Peter Jackson's "King Kong" on HD DVD (for a limited time) and the Xbox 360 Universal Media Remote.

Users can just add Xbox 360 HD DVD Player to Xbox 360 to create the ultimate home-theater experience.

"The Xbox 360 HD DVD Player is the best high-definition movie experience and value on the market," Moore said. "The reviews, the word of mouth and the consumer response have all been crystal clear — HD DVD is the format of choice. We're not forcing movie technology on game players but are instead letting them choose how to personalize their experiences. If they want HD DVD, there's no better value out there."

The Xbox 360 HD DVD Player offers up to six times higher resolution than DVD, and as part of the fall 2006 console update all Xbox 360 consoles will have the ability to output native resolution 1080p games and movies. Users can enjoy blockbuster HD DVD releases, with more than 150 titles available by the holidays from major movie studios including HBO, Paramount Pictures, StudioCanal, Universal Studios, New Line Entertainment and Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc.

The Industry's Most Anticipated Titles Are Coming to Xbox 360 In addition to taking popular franchises in new directions, developers are finding new life through Xbox 360 with exciting new content and are delivering many of the industry's most praised and anticipated titles.

Arguably the most anticipated title of 2006, "Gears of War" from Epic Games and Microsoft Game Studios is a third-person tactical action/horror game available exclusively on Xbox 360. "Gears of War"

will be the only game to blend a deep and disturbing story of human survival against hordes of nightmarish creatures with a next-generation tactical combat system and unsurpassed visuals and special effects. "Gears of War," which will be available Nov. 12, 2006, in the U.S. and Nov. 17, 2006, in Europe, has garnered numerous industry awards and accolades including the Game Critics Awards Best Console and Best Action Game of E3 2006, IGN's E3 2005 Best Xbox 360 Game, and GameSpot's E3 2006 People's Choice Award.

From leading U.K.-based developer Rare and Microsoft Game Studios comes "Viva Piñata™," an original game concept and the latest innovative gaming experience for gamers of all ages and types. "Viva Piñata" invites gamers to create an immersive world where living piñatas inhabit an ever-changing environment. "Viva Pinata," which has won several industry awards including Best Graphics from Nick Jr.
Magazine and IGN's Runner-Up for Best Strategy Game of E3 2006, is scheduled to be available this holiday.

Underlining the Xbox 360 platform strength, Microsoft and Ubisoft today confirmed that "Assassin's Creed," the eagerly anticipated action title set in medieval times, is also coming to Xbox 360 day and date with the game's release on other platforms. "Assassin's Creed" is a next-generation action-adventure/stealth title from the highly talented and critically acclaimed team that brought gamers "Prince of
Persia: The Sands of Time." "Assassin's Creed" will place gamers in the role of a ruthless and skilled Assassin as he tracks his victims through the historical era known as the Crusades.

Last week at the Tokyo Game Show in Japan, "Lost Odyssey" wowed audiences with its incredible graphic style and epic storyline. From famed Japanese developer Hironobu Sakaguchi, "Lost Odyssey" will be shipped in Japan in 2007, and in the U.S. and Europe at a later date.

Few games have generated more interest than "BioShock" (2K Games) in the past year, and Microsoft confirmed today that the highly anticipated first-person shooter will be exclusive to Xbox 360 and Windows when it launches in spring 2007.

Looking into the coming year, X06 showcased a montage video trailer demonstrating the dazzling power and versatility of the Xbox 360 platform, promising gamers a choice of titles and genres coming this spring season, including the Microsoft Game Studios titles "Crackdown™" (Real Time Worlds), "Too Human" (Silicon Knights), "Mass Effect" (BioWare Corp.), and "Forza Motorsport™ 2" (Turn 10). In addition to these titles from Microsoft Game Studios, games from today's leading publishers round out what is already a robust library of offerings for the Xbox 360 platform, including "John Woo Presents Stranglehold" (Midway), "Lost Planet: Extreme Condition" (Capcom) and "Pro Evolution Soccer 6" (Konami).

Microsoft underscored the continued momentum behind Xbox 360 with more than 5 million consoles sold since launch, the fastest console launch ever. Microsoft remains on track to deliver 10 million consoles worldwide, with a library of 160 games, by end of year. The Xbox Live community continues to grow and is on track to double in size to 6 million gamers by June 2007. Those numbers are supported by the most impressive number of all: Xbox 360 is now available in more than 30 countries since the console launched last November. By the end of this year, Xbox 360 will launch in even more countries, including South Africa and in Europe where plans are set in Slovakia, the Czech Republic, Hungary and Poland.

Microsoft also provided attendees with an update on Games for Windows and announced several exciting new Games for Windows titles, including "Bioshock" and "Marvel Universe Online." Starting this September with
"LEGO(r) Star Wars(r) II: The Original Trilogy" from LucasArts and "Company of Heroes" from THQ, games will carry the Games for Windows branding after meeting a set of technical guidelines designed to provide consumers with a consistent, reliable gaming experience on Windows XP and Windows Vista. The guidelines include easier game installation, improved reliability and support for key Windows Vista features such as the Games Explorer and Parental Controls. They will also support wide-screen gaming, will launch from within Windows Media(r) Center, be compatible with 64-bit consumer versions of Windows, and will support the Xbox 360 Controller for Windows (for games that enable gamepads).

Attendees were given a glimpse of the exciting upcoming Games for Windows titles including "Hellgate: London" (NAMCO BANDAI Games), "Rail Simulator" (Electronic Arts) and "Age of Conan: Hyborian Adventures" (Eidos/Funcom), as well as Microsoft Game Studios titles "Age of Empires III: The WarChiefs," "Alan Wake," "Zoo Tycoon(r) 2:
Marine Mania(r)," "Flight Simulator X," "Shadowrun™," "Halo 2" for Windows Vista and the newly named "Marvel Universe Online," a massively multiplayer online game for Xbox 360 and Windows Vista from Cryptic Studios.

I'll wait until MSFT incorporates these drives into the xbox itself. Who wants a clunky external drive for your already clunky 360? *sigh*

I don't know, it makes it more portable. You can take it to a friends house if they have an XBox 360 or a MCE-PC.

^^ link pls ...

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/community/news/events/x06/xbox360welcomesnewworlds.htm

Any further info on Dolby TrueHD capability?

Does this mean then that movies via component will also be able to be displayed at 720p (the max for my TV anyway)? He says 1080i, so I am assuming anything below that is fair game. If so, sweet deal, I will probably get this over the Toshiba because I am not happy with VGA on my TV (I tried it this weekend, did not turn out to good).

Anyone? (This is in regards to the Amrim message regarding displaying HD on the 360 HD drive via component and VGA).

I'll wait until MSFT incorporates these drives into the xbox itself. Who wants a clunky external drive for your already clunky 360? *sigh*

What is clunky about the 360?

Unfortunately, I think the poster of the 1080p information has got it wrong. In the cold light of day, the DOA4 shots just look like very good scaling - image 1 in my previous post shows a very nice image, but it definitely looks like it is being scaled to me.

I did a dump of Call of Duty's 2 framebuffer and it's 720p all the way. So is Dead or Alive 4.

Oblivion is such a graphically intensive game that it would make sense for the framebuffer to be 720p as opposed to taking the performance hit of running internally at 1080p.


In your post about capturing, you said you were using the VGA cable and selecting 1280x1084. I wouldn't expect DOA (and other multi-res games) to allocate a 1920x1080 framebuffer in that case. Unless you actually pick 1920x1080, the game would likely pick a framebuffer size less than or equal the desired output resolution. If you look on the back of the DOA4 box, it lists the formats it supports. Now the 360 will output anything from 640x480i to 1920x1080i (soon to be p), but those numbers on the back of the box represent the framebuffer sizes the GAME presents to the Xbox for display. Some only say "720P" while others will say "480P", "720P", and "1080i". So if you had a game that only said "720P" on the back of the box, it will still work fine with a display that only accepts 480i or 1080i signals, it just means there is scaling done by the 360 that is external to the game code.
So why don't games just pick one resolution and internally render at that? Lots of reasons. You may have seen some magazine reviews complaining that on non-HD sets, some of the text in certain 360 games is hard to read. Invariably, it is because a game does only render at 720P (the one resolution that a 360 game must support natively) and relies on the scaler to take care of the rest. Text and HUD elements are items you want to, if possible, place and render uniquely at a given resolution. Slight scaling up or down on text looks bad as it can become either blurry (when scaling up) or unreadable. HUD elements that line the edge of the screen are in particular danger on NTSC displays (480i) of being in the overscan region. You also will want to do different HUD arrangements for 4:3 displays than for 16:9 displays. Needless to say, UI work on games is tedious and unfortunately invisible if done properly. When was the last time you saw a magazine review say "Man, that onscreen text is the da' bomb!"? It is only when it doesn't look perfect (like illegible text on a non-HD display) that people notice the UI at all.
Some other poster had said Bethesda replied to his query that Oblivion supported 1920x1080. Oblivion is likely more CPU bound (for things like AI and physic simulations) than GPU bound, so the bump in resolution probably doesn't affect their framerate. Note that Oblivion on the PC is one of the more scalable games out there. It is able to run on relatively "ghetto" graphics cards. To max out Oblivion on a PC you need both a fast graphics board (to do HDR and anti-aliasing) and a very fast CPU.
Now, just because a game presents the XBox OS with a framebuffer of a given size (like 1920x1080), that doesn't mean it is rendering absolutely everything at that resolution. As some people have noted, the PGR3 guys admitted they were rendering to an intermediate buffer that was smaller than 1280x720 and rendering that to the final framebuffer. That may seem like cheating, but it is very common for games that have lots of rendering effects applied to the 3D scene. Things like motion blur, bloom lighting, HDR, toon shading, etc. require an intermediate buffer of the raw 3D scene. Because the individual raw 3D pixels get so processed anyway, rendering the intermediate buffer at a higher resolution before the post-effects doesn't buy them a better looking final result or a good enough to take the memory hit.
Now one could be cynical and say it is possible that all those games that list 1080i on the back are really rendering at 720P and then within the game, scaling that to a 1920x1080 framebuffer, but that would be silly. The OS would do that for them automatically and be invisible to game code (less complex code==good). They'd just be wasting framebuffer memory and GPU time. One could be cynical and say MS is lying and those games don't really support that resolution natively. That is a nice theory, but if MS was going to be dishonest, why wouldn't they put it on the back of every 360 game box? Many games like Kameo and PGR3 only say "720P". Why would MS allow such a deception for third party games like Call of Duty 2 and Oblivion, but be honest about first-party games? And wouldn't it be at least consistent for a given publisher? If so, then why do only some EA games say they only support "720p" and other include "1080i'. Hmm, maybe the number means something specific to the game itself...
Anyway, I think this has gotten way off course of the original thread. Stick a fork in it.

I'll wait until MSFT incorporates these drives into the xbox itself. Who wants a clunky external drive for your already clunky 360? *sigh*

Those of us with 3 units. We have 3 360's all conected to HD displays (love MCE). Moving the small unit to whatever set someone wants to watch an HD DVD on sure beats paying for HD DVD playback on all three.

What about Dolby True HD and the DTS HD audio on HD DVD's? If 360 can't support that, I wouldn't buy the add on.

What about Dolby True HD and the DTS HD audio on HD DVD's? If 360 can't support that, I wouldn't buy the add on.

I believe it will support them (decode them), but in the same sense EDTV's support 720/1080i in that it will be downsampled.

Those of us with 3 units. We have 3 360's all conected to HD displays (love MCE). Moving the small unit to whatever set someone wants to watch an HD DVD on sure beats paying for HD DVD playback on all three.

Right there brudda

Combine that with Media Center streaming to multiple 360's and you have a nice ability to push a lot of high def content anywhere you want around the house.

In your post about capturing, you said you were using the VGA cable and selecting 1280x1084. I wouldn't expect DOA (and other multi-res games) to allocate a 1920x1080 framebuffer in that case. Unless you actually pick 1920x1080, the game would likely pick a framebuffer size less than or equal the desired output resolution.

If you look on the back of the DOA4 box, it lists the formats it supports. Now the 360 will output anything from 640x480i to 1920x1080i (soon to be p), but those numbers on the back of the box represent the framebuffer sizes the GAME presents to the Xbox for display. Some only say "720P" while others will say "480P", "720P", and "1080i". So if you had a game that only said "720P" on the back of the box, it will still work fine with a display that only accepts 480i or 1080i signals, it just means there is scaling done by the 360 that is external to the game code.

So why don't games just pick one resolution and internally render at that? Lots of reasons. You may have seen some magazine reviews complaining that on non-HD sets, some of the text in certain 360 games is hard to read. Invariably, it is because a game does only render at 720P (the one resolution that a 360 game must support natively) and relies on the scaler to take care of the rest. Text and HUD elements are items you want to, if possible, place and render uniquely at a given resolution. Slight scaling up or down on text looks bad as it can become either blurry (when scaling up) or unreadable.

HUD elements that line the edge of the screen are in particular danger on NTSC displays (480i) of being in the overscan region. You also will want to do different HUD arrangements for 4:3 displays than for 16:9 displays. Needless to say, UI work on games is tedious and unfortunately invisible if done properly. When was the last time you saw a magazine review say "Man, that onscreen text is the da' bomb!"? It is only when it doesn't look perfect (like illegible text on a non-HD display) that people notice the UI at all.

Some other poster had said Bethesda replied to his query that Oblivion supported 1920x1080. Oblivion is likely more CPU bound (for things like AI and physic simulations) than GPU bound, so the bump in resolution probably doesn't affect their framerate. Note that Oblivion on the PC is one of the more scalable games out there. It is able to run on relatively "ghetto" graphics cards. To max out Oblivion on a PC you need both a fast graphics board (to do HDR and anti-aliasing) and a very fast CPU.

Now, just because a game presents the XBox OS with a framebuffer of a given size (like 1920x1080), that doesn't mean it is rendering absolutely everything at that resolution. As some people have noted, the PGR3 guys admitted they were rendering to an intermediate buffer that was smaller than 1280x720 and rendering that to the final framebuffer.

That may seem like cheating, but it is very common for games that have lots of rendering effects applied to the 3D scene. Things like motion blur, bloom lighting, HDR, toon shading, etc. require an intermediate buffer of the raw 3D scene. Because the individual raw 3D pixels get so processed anyway, rendering the intermediate buffer at a higher resolution before the post-effects doesn't buy them a better looking final result or a good enough to take the memory hit.
Now one could be cynical and say it is possible that all those games that list 1080i on the back are really rendering at 720P and then within the game, scaling that to a 1920x1080 framebuffer, but that would be silly.

The OS would do that for them automatically and be invisible to game code (less complex code==good). They'd just be wasting framebuffer memory and GPU time. One could be cynical and say MS is lying and those games don't really support that resolution natively. That is a nice theory, but if MS was going to be dishonest, why wouldn't they put it on the back of every 360 game box? Many games like Kameo and PGR3 only say "720P".

Why would MS allow such a deception for third party games like Call of Duty 2 and Oblivion, but be honest about first-party games? And wouldn't it be at least consistent for a given publisher? If so, then why do only some EA games say they only support "720p" and other include "1080i'. Hmm, maybe the number means something specific to the game itself...

Anyway, I think this has gotten way off course of the original thread. Stick a fork in it.

Excellent post and not at all off course IMO since the entire "1080p" issue has become very relevant to the debate about the value of hd-dvd.

MS has announced the entire "1080p" update to the 360 along with the HD-DVD addon and of course Sony has used "True HD" resolution as a major marketing point for both the PS3 AND Blu-ray. All of these issues have become conflated in consumers mind into "HD" in some way or the other.

As I posted before the entire issue of what determines the real visual quality for either games or movies is far more technical in reality than consumers will ever follow and your detailed description of game resolution rendering illustrates the point very well.

So it all get's summarized to a nice slogan like "Tru HD, 1080p" and that is something retail can sell on. To me the question is if indeed MS had a number of games that already are "multi-res" as you say and do render a true "1920x1080" already then why don't they trumpet and market this point the way Sony is hammering home "1080p"? It seems they should esp. be making the point now that have a "p"rogressive update on tap to turn those "i"'s into "p"'s?

BTW I've sent you a PM tallen94

I've looked at the boxes for all the retail Xbox 360 games I have. Namely Far Cry Instincts, Burnout Revenge 360, Fight Night Round 3, Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter, Battlefield 2, Call of Duty 2. All of them say the same thing on the box - 480p/720p/1080i. Burnout 360 has been documented by the developers as being 720p so I honestly don't think we can count on what the box says as an indication of the framebuffer used.

I'm here to be convinced but as I can physically see the scaling on the clean lines of Far Cry Instincts Predator on my Dell 2405FPW at 1080i, I can't help thinking that this isn't going to lead to the revelation we are all hoping for.

What I will say is that Project Gotham 3 dumps a 1024x600 framebuffer no matter what output resolution you select, so until I've tested in more depth, I would still consider the XDK screendump feature to be dumping the internal framebuffer of the game before it reaches any of the GPU's scalers.

I'll try some framebuffer dumps from 1080i later, but here's a couple of rough and ready shots of DOA4. I only did a very quick 360 1080i calibration so the colours are a bit off, but what can I say? It still looks to be scaled.

The trick was to get the game to display a full frame with no interlacing. Not easy with DOA4.

This shot (www.digitalfoundry.org/images/5.jpg) is of the game just as you quit the game (hence the bit in the middle beginning to pop up with interlacing artefacts). Notice the blocky edges on the couch, to mention around the outline of the characters and on their hair specifically.

This shot of the title screen (www.digitalfoundry.org/images/6.jpg) was achieved as the game pauses momentarily when you bring up the options, giving a precious full 1920x1080 image with no interlacing artefacts. Nice, but that doesn't have the clarity of native resolution about it.

Just did a CoD2 framebuffer test at 1080i and as expected it's still 720p.

I have narrowed down my hddvd choices to hda1, hda2, or hdxa1. $400-$550
And now it seems I will have to add this also, 1080P is not at all important to me, however 1080i DVD upscaling is.
My question is if I play an :confused: unprotected commercial dvd with the xbox 360 hddvd, will the upscaing be on par with the Toshiba's units in quality, If so this will be my player.

I've looked at the boxes for all the retail Xbox 360 games I have. Namely Far Cry Instincts, Burnout Revenge 360, Fight Night Round 3, Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter, Battlefield 2, Call of Duty 2. All of them say the same thing on the box - 480p/720p/1080i. Burnout 360 has been documented by the developers as being 720p so I honestly don't think we can count on what the box says as an indication of the framebuffer used.

I'm here to be convinced but as I can physically see the scaling on the clean lines of Far Cry Instincts Predator on my Dell 2405FPW at 1080i, I can't help thinking that this isn't going to lead to the revelation we are all hoping for.

What I will say is that Project Gotham 3 dumps a 1024x600 framebuffer no matter what output resolution you select, so until I've tested in more depth, I would still consider the XDK screendump feature to be dumping the internal framebuffer of the game before it reaches any of the GPU's scalers.

I'll try some framebuffer dumps from 1080i later, but here's a couple of rough and ready shots of DOA4. I only did a very quick 360 1080i calibration so the colours are a bit off, but what can I say? It still looks to be scaled.

The trick was to get the game to display a full frame with no interlacing. Not easy with DOA4.

This shot (www.digitalfoundry.org/images/5.jpg) is of the game just as you quit the game (hence the bit in the middle beginning to pop up with interlacing artefacts). Notice the blocky edges on the couch, to mention around the outline of the characters and on their hair specifically.

This shot of the title screen (www.digitalfoundry.org/images/6.jpg) was achieved as the game pauses momentarily when you bring up the options, giving a precious full 1920x1080 image with no interlacing artefacts. Nice, but that doesn't have the clarity of native resolution about it.

Just did a CoD2 framebuffer test at 1080i and as expected it's still 720p.

In the X360, all the scaling is done by an analog output only video out chip (developed by the ex WebTV team IIRC):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v105/Shogmaster/X360BlockDiaAnnotated1.gif

The chip as shown on the block diagram is not part of the GPU, and does all the scaling on it's own. Thus, Xenos (the GPU) spits out the framebuffer contents to the "analog" video chip via it's 500MB/s bus, then the chip does the scaling dictated by the Dashboard resolution setting and outputs it in analog out only form (this is why it's technically impossible to have a HDMI connection on the current X360s).

Thanks for the clarification on the analogue chip and the scaler.

On another tangent, I had a word with a journalist contact who works with Xbox 360 all the time - and he's yet to see any dump from the framebuffer exceed 1280x720. He even tested a bunch more titles with the resolution set to 1080i, but still no dice.

Thanks for the clarification on the analogue chip and the scaler.

On another tangent, I had a word with a journalist contact who works with Xbox 360 all the time - and he's yet to see any dump from the framebuffer exceed 1280x720. He even tested a bunch more titles with the resolution set to 1080i, but still no dice.

The framebuffer output (native resolution of the game) is dicated by the developer, not by your dash settings. And many won't do beyond 1280x720 because of the EDRAM's 10MB footprint.

Basically, to have 720p and AA and HDR requires more space than the 10MB of the EDRAM. And that requires the use of "tiling" function of the Xenos (dividing the frame into multiple chunks of the frame buffer) to acheive with the size limit of the EDRAM. But using too many tiles to construct one frame will start robbing perfromance from your engine, so most opt for 2 or 3 tiles at the most.

1080p has slightly over double the space requirements of 720p, so if your engine currently takes 2 tiles to make a frame @ 720p, then 1080p will require 4 (and 3 @ 720p = 6 tiles etc..). So IMO, not many shader FXs and HDR heavy titles will be made in 1080p.

But with the fall update, video out chip will now scale everything upto 1080p from the frame buffer with the right connection, and some of the simpler titles and many of the XBLA titles will be doing native 1080p.

I've looked at the boxes for all the retail Xbox 360 games I have. Namely Far Cry Instincts, Burnout Revenge 360, Fight Night Round 3, Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter, Battlefield 2, Call of Duty 2. All of them say the same thing on the box - 480p/720p/1080i. Burnout 360 has been documented by the developers as being 720p so I honestly don't think we can count on what the box says as an indication of the framebuffer used.

That has always been my impression as well, namely that the resolutions listed on the label serve only as a reassurance to consumers that standard 480 / 720 /1080 televisions will all work with the game. Again basically meaningless. Some games listing only one resolution might lead us to think there is a real distinction being made as tallen94 suggests, but we seem to have come full circle back to meaningless hd resolution labels.

On another tangent, I had a word with a journalist contact who works with Xbox 360 all the time - and he's yet to see any dump from the framebuffer exceed 1280x720. He even tested a bunch more titles with the resolution set to 1080i, but still no dice.

Thx for the nice detective work. :) I'm writing content for some gaming sites and definitely want to avoid misinformation on an already nebulous subject for most gamers.

The framebuffer output (native resolution of the game) is dicated by the developer, not by your dash settings. And many won't do beyond 1280x720 because of the EDRAM's 10MB footprint.

But with the fall update, video out chip will now scale everything upto 1080p from the frame buffer with the right connection, and some of the simpler titles and many of the XBLA titles will be doing native 1080p.

Good break down, although somewhat unfortunately leads us back full circle to confirming our original assumptions, namely that 360 games will be 720 native bound for most "non-simple" titles and higher native resolutions up to 1080p will likely be applied to simpler games.

On a side note, given your analysis of the required memory footprint doesn't it seem the PS3 would be similarly constrained in terms of native resolutions?

(I should say we're talking about for games of course, not movies which will be all set for 1080p over hdmi on ps3 and over vga for 360)

Guys I'm sure this has been asked/answered but: does the add-on have an HDMI port and if so, is it 1.3?
TIA,
Bish

I've looked at the boxes for all the retail Xbox 360 games I have. Namely Far Cry Instincts, Burnout Revenge 360, Fight Night Round 3, Ghost Recon Advanced Warfighter, Battlefield 2, Call of Duty 2. All of them say the same thing on the box - 480p/720p/1080i. Burnout 360 has been documented by the developers as being 720p so I honestly don't think we can count on what the box says as an indication of the framebuffer used.

I'm here to be convinced but as I can physically see the scaling on the clean lines of Far Cry Instincts Predator on my Dell 2405FPW at 1080i, I can't help thinking that this isn't going to lead to the revelation we are all hoping for.

What I will say is that Project Gotham 3 dumps a 1024x600 framebuffer no matter what output resolution you select, so until I've tested in more depth, I would still consider the XDK screendump feature to be dumping the internal framebuffer of the game before it reaches any of the GPU's scalers.

I'll try some framebuffer dumps from 1080i later, but here's a couple of rough and ready shots of DOA4. I only did a very quick 360 1080i calibration so the colours are a bit off, but what can I say? It still looks to be scaled.

The trick was to get the game to display a full frame with no interlacing. Not easy with DOA4.

This shot (www.digitalfoundry.org/images/5.jpg) is of the game just as you quit the game (hence the bit in the middle beginning to pop up with interlacing artefacts). Notice the blocky edges on the couch, to mention around the outline of the characters and on their hair specifically.

This shot of the title screen (www.digitalfoundry.org/images/6.jpg) was achieved as the game pauses momentarily when you bring up the options, giving a precious full 1920x1080 image with no interlacing artefacts. Nice, but that doesn't have the clarity of native resolution about it.

Just did a CoD2 framebuffer test at 1080i and as expected it's still 720p.

Thanks for the clarification on the analogue chip and the scaler.

On another tangent, I had a word with a journalist contact who works with Xbox 360 all the time - and he's yet to see any dump from the framebuffer exceed 1280x720. He even tested a bunch more titles with the resolution set to 1080i, but still no dice.

Thanks for all of your input on this.

Guys I'm sure this has been asked/answered but: does the add-on have an HDMI port and if so, is it 1.3?
TIA,
Bish

No it does not, Amir (MS Exec at AVS) was very clear about it.

Thanks for all of your input on this.

No probs. My Dell 2405FPW will be able to run the 360 at 1920x1080 progressive resolution so I was genuinely excited at the thought of a catalogue of great native resolution games. A bit disappointing that it is not to be so, but at the same time, the 360's scaler really is nice.

No probs. My Dell 2405FPW will be able to run the 360 at 1920x1080 progressive resolution so I was genuinely excited at the thought of a catalogue of great native resolution games. A bit disappointing that it is not to be so, but at the same time, the 360's scaler really is nice.

Agreed. Running Dead Or Alive 4 on my own 1080i line doubling display there is no way visually I think could tell if it were 1920x1080 native or scaled from 720.

My eyes may not know but it would have been nice to know it was native in my mind :D

Guys I'm sure this has been asked/answered but: does the add-on have an HDMI port and if so, is it 1.3?
TIA,
Bish

Here is the quote actually Post #2638 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8531191#post8531191) :

Answer:
Since there is no HDMI on the 360, the only option you have here is to buy the Toshiba player. We do decode TrueHD per my earlier post but we can't get it out in a lossless manner.

Just in case you are wondering why we did it, there are two reasons:

1. Just because we could. :D

2. By having TrueHD in the second high volume product next to Toshiba, content owners can be more comfortable using it, knowing that it is always available in consumer hands (remember, discs are forever -- well kind of -- where as players come and go).

Question:
Originally Posted by dazbug
**************************************

AMIRM,,

Will we get to hear TRUE_HD from the 360 add on without getting it downconverted via optical?

I want True HD from my receiver. The only way i get get it is via 5.1ch analoge or hdmi without being downconverted. Am i better of buying a HD-A1/HD-EX2 or a xbox 360 addon?

Thanks for the cross link. That's a bit disappointing but not surprising. So no high-def audio goodness for the 360 hd dvd....this probably stopped me from getting it.

Off topic - but it is surprising (and a bit funny) for me to see two posters that seem to be quite in the know with XBox 360's development/hardware, and both of them have a handle ending in 'master'.

Master indeed :).

Thanks for the cross link. That's a bit disappointing but not surprising. So no high-def audio goodness for the 360 hd dvd....this probably stopped me from getting it.

Even downrezzed to comply with the toslink Optical spec restriction, won't the bit rate be higher than standard dvd and thus the sound quality should be a nice step up from standard dvd no?

What is the bit and speed of the XBOX DAC's when playing HD-DVD's (11bit 12bit 216-297 DAC's)?

Good break down, although somewhat unfortunately leads us back full circle to confirming our original assumptions, namely that 360 games will be 720 native bound for most "non-simple" titles and higher native resolutions up to 1080p will likely be applied to simpler games.

Given the choice, I believe most aggressive devs will forgo 1080p and opt for 720p since the savings in the EDRAM footprint could mean more room for HDR or less tiles will mean faster performance.

Having said that, 1080p games for 360 aren't exactly impossible feats. As long as the number of tiles can be kept under control, the 360 is about as capable as PS3 in doing 1080p since: they both have about the same bandwith speeds for the various buses that connect the chips, exactly the same fill rate @ 4GP/s, and about the same ball park for shader performance. They both have about the same performance bottlenecks (save for the EDRAM situation for 360), so if the public demands 1080p games, you can possibly see about the same amount of 1080p support on both sides.

But that's the thing: Such an insignificant number of gamers are demanding 1080p games since only a tiny tiny fraction of the user base owns 1080p sets.

Sony has made it their business to make the 1080p output a point of difference between PS3 and 360 to make up for the long delays and the high price of their units. And thus, they have strong armed a few devs into making 1080p games for launch. And in return, MS has made the 1080p update announcement as a counter. 1080p for now is only relevant in marketing war terms IMO. Neither machine has enough shader performance to make 1080p output a norm. That's why I said native 1080p support for 360 will be limited to simpler games.

I know that there are several 1080p PS3 games made into big deals because they are 1080p, and there are no 1080p games on the 360 side. But then again, 1080p was impossible for 360 because the scaler/video out chip in the 360 is currently locked out of 1080p output mode. This is why no devs attampted anything beyond 720p for even simple XBLA games (although I remember reading that one or two XBLA titles being native 1080i). Now that MS is allowing 1080p output through the video out chip, I think we will begin to see devs trying out 1080p. The only concern I have is if the scaler does downscaling that's akin to MSAA or just simple point sampling. If it's simple point sampled downscaling, then I can see devs opting for 720p with AA instead of 1080p since most of their target audience is gonna be on 720p/1080i only capable sets (probably on 1366x768 direct view LCD panels).

On a side note, given your analysis of the required memory footprint doesn't it seem the PS3 would be similarly constrained in terms of native resolutions?

(I should say we're talking about for games of course, not movies which will be all set for 1080p over hdmi on ps3 and over vga for 360)

PS3 uses the traditional main RAM/ video RAM (256MB 3.2GHz XDR + 256MB 650MHz GDDR3) seperate bus paradigm found in PCs. It does not fall under the restrictions of EDRAM footprint like 360. But as I have stated above, all the other potential bottlenecks are there, and both consoles have similar limitations.




Off topic - but it is surprising (and a bit funny) for me to see two posters that seem to be quite in the know with XBox 360's development/hardware, and both of them have a handle ending in 'master'.

Master indeed :).

The "master" in my handle was thrown in there for irony than anything else. I myself am not quite sure what it means to be master of shog-dom. Nor do I know exactly what a shog is. ;)

Thanks for the cross link. That's a bit disappointing but not surprising. So no high-def audio goodness for the 360 hd dvd....this probably stopped me from getting it.Just found this interesting tidbit...

Toshiba Takes ‘Mythbusters’ Role At Image Tour (http://marketnews.ca/news_detail.asp?nid=2188)

More news on the HD-DVD front: the price of the HD-DVD option for the Xbox 360 system has been announced as C$199, bringing the cost of an Xbox package capable of playing back the discs at C$700. Curiously, the HDMI connection scheme uses a non-standard cable that would become available “soon after” the introduction of the player itself in November; but at additional cost. Without HDMI, users would have to rely on un-content-protected component video for high-definition movie playback: not a safe bet over the long haul.

Quote:
More news on the HD-DVD front: the price of the HD-DVD option for the Xbox 360 system has been announced as C$199, bringing the cost of an Xbox package capable of playing back the discs at C$700. Curiously, the HDMI connection scheme uses a non-standard cable that would become available “soon after” the introduction of the player itself in November; but at additional cost. Without HDMI, users would have to rely on un-content-protected component video for high-definition movie playback: not a safe bet over the long haul.

With the movie studios all agreeing not to enable protected content unil 2009-2010, Microsoft has more or less said that they'll have another console out by that point and it's likely that new one with have HDMI on board. A moot point. And what's to say that the studios still won't turn it on then even when the can? I for one am not worried. I'll probably pick up the HD-DVD add on anyway. If protection is turned on, I'm sure I'll have a 5 Disc player of some type.

Deezul

Over at IGN

Don't have the 5 posts so can't post the url:

Microsoft just got back to us to clarify the Xbox 360's ability to transmit a digital signal. In short, it can, which means that Microsoft could conceivably release an HDMI cable for the Xbox 360. This is good news, and relieves a great deal of our concern over the Xbox 360's ability to effectively work with 1080p. Microsoft's full response is marked in the Q & A portion of this feature.

With this new information in mind, consider us relatively mollified. A future HDMI cable for the 360 will resolve the problems we outline in our discussion of 1080p compatibility. Let's hope Microsoft decides the market demands it sooner rather than later.

Over at IGN

Don't have the 5 posts so can't post the url:

That blurb - with the article I posted above does seem to lean in the direction of 1080p dongle...Let's hope it doesn't really cost $99.95 like was posted a month or two ago.

Over at IGN

Don't have the 5 posts so can't post the url:

Microsoft just got back to us to clarify the Xbox 360's ability to transmit a digital signal. In short, it can, which means that Microsoft could conceivably release an HDMI cable for the Xbox 360. This is good news, and relieves a great deal of our concern over the Xbox 360's ability to effectively work with 1080p. Microsoft's full response is marked in the Q & A portion of this feature.

With this new information in mind, consider us relatively mollified. A future HDMI cable for the 360 will resolve the problems we outline in our discussion of 1080p compatibility. Let's hope Microsoft decides the market demands it sooner rather than later.

I think a third party will release a hdmi cable for the xbox360 first, however 1080i/720p component and 1080P vga is fine for me now.

But then again, 1080p was impossible for 360 because the scaler/video out chip in the 360 is currently locked out of 1080p output mode.

Excellent point. Why would devs go to the trouble and spend the time to make 1080p native games before the system even supported the output. Still 1080ii was there, but I think in general it takes some sort of incentive to make the games render at 1080 natively.

One PS3 dev told me at E3 that they wanted to hit 1080p for their launch title but it was taking a lot of work to keep the performance up at resolution and they didn't know if they would make it.

Sony has made it their business to make the 1080p output a point of difference between PS3 and 360 to make up for the long delays and the high price of their units. And thus, they have strong armed a few devs into making 1080p games for launch.

That would constitute 'incentive' to make 1080p.

Now that MS is allowing 1080p output through the video out chip, I think we will begin to see devs trying out 1080p.

The only concern I have is if the scaler does downscaling that's akin to MSAA or just simple point sampling. If it's simple point sampled downscaling, then I can see devs opting for 720p with AA instead of 1080p since most of their target audience is gonna be on 720p/1080i only capable sets (probably on 1366x768 direct view LCD panels).

That's sounds like pretty sound 'disincentive' to do 1080p on anything other than simpler games where the downrez might not affect much.

That blurb - with the article I posted above does seem to lean in the direction of 1080p dongle...Let's hope it doesn't really cost $99.95 like was posted a month or two ago.

Based on an insider rumor Amillians posted a while back it would seem that MS has wanted to make this dongle for a long time now, but simply hasn't overcome the technical hurdle required to do it.

I think a third party will release a hdmi cable for the xbox360 first, however 1080i/720p component and 1080P vga is fine for me now.

You do realize that a digital output would need some firmware changes, right ?

Even downrezzed to comply with the toslink Optical spec restriction, won't the bit rate be higher than standard dvd and thus the sound quality should be a nice step up from standard dvd no?

It could but depends on how they decide to handle the downrezz. Tosh converted to DTS so they could max out that spec at 1.5mbs (think that's right). Presumably M$ will do the same thing, but it's not guaranteed.

I WANT to get one of these.


HOWEVER

I use a screenplay projector. And to get my best picture I need to use a digital out..... Is this thing going to have hdmi or dvi out?

Presumably M$ will do the same thing, but it's not guaranteed.


Amir said re-encode to 640Kbps DD 5.1.

I WANT to get one of these.


HOWEVER

I use a screenplay projector. And to get my best picture I need to use a digital out..... Is this thing going to have hdmi or dvi out?

Well I've been wondering why you couldn't just use the VGA out of the 360 and use a DVI adapter like often is used with monitors.

Amir said re-encode to 640Kbps DD 5.1.

That's a nice bump from sd-dvd, maxes out dd 5.1 over optical and should sound very good, but DTS would be even better.

Not sure what's up with 360 and DTS, seems that option should be there. Is it another license issue? Maybe on another update?

Well I've been wondering why you couldn't just use the VGA out of the 360 and use a DVI adapter like often is used with monitors.

Or VGA to Component adapter.

Well I've been wondering why you couldn't just use the VGA out of the 360 and use a DVI adapter like often is used with monitors.

i use a screenplay projector too (sp7200), but i've been impressed enough with the 360's component output of HD games that i am hoping the component output will look great too.

the 360's current sd dvd output looks really bad to my eyes, though (washed out blacks) so maybe i should not get my hopes up.

i use a screenplay projector too (sp7200), but i've been impressed enough with the 360's component output of HD games that i am hoping the component output will look great too.

the 360's current sd dvd output looks really bad to my eyes, though (washed out blacks) so maybe i should not get my hopes up.


I agree. The DVD player of the 360 really isn't very good.

Why on earth would they make an HD unit and NOT offer digital out for video???? :confused:

It just doesn't make sense.

Why would anyone want to use a 360 for HD-DVD?

It's VERY noisy, uses more than 140 watts idle and if the HD quality is anything like the SD-DVD it's gonna be terrible.

And besides that, Microsoft is making a fool of all the 360 owners with one vague HDMI comment after the other.

Actually not having HDMI on board saves them $$$$, and as many have witnessed, depending on your display, cables, and other factors, component can look as good and sometime even better than hdmi, with out all the handshake issues.

That said, I think in the future, there will be a HDMI option, as more and more people buy hdmi sets, capable of 1080P input only thru that HDMI port.

What I am really wondering is, is the picture quality on par with the toshiba HDDVD units and is the XBOX360 noise less bothersome, since the xbox360 dvd drive is not used at all for dvd and hddvd playback anymore? :confused:

Why would anyone want to use a 360 for HD-DVD?


The simple answer is: because it is less than half the price of a standalone HD-DVD player and comes with a free movie!

Rephrased, it's a more affordable way (for those who already own a 360, of course) for a home theater enthusiast to give HD-DVD a try.

Heck, I already have a Toshiba HD-A1 and I'm planning on getting the 360 drive. Why? One reason is admittedly that I want to support HD-DVD and this 360 drive is a very good deal. Also, I assume if you are watching an HD-DVD on the 360 you can still access the guide, get messages or game invites from your friends, etc so that's definitely an advantage. Say, for instance, I'm waiting for a friend online to come home from work some night to play some online gaming. I might want to watch an HD-DVD while I wait and he could simply send me a message when he's home. I haven't confirmed this will work when playing HD-DVD on the 360, but it works for regulard DVD.

Travisimo

What he said!

Look, no matter how you put it, it is still the same. Yes, the XBOX360 will be limited on the Audio issues. Not so much on the Video capabilities. $199 and you can watch Hi Def Movies. Right now! King Kong Free! I picked my format.

I agree. The DVD player of the 360 really isn't very good.

You sounds like you haven't checked out the DVD playck after the spring update. It's now right up there with the best upconverting players @ 720p (if you have VGA kit). Even with component, it's a pretty darn good 480p player now.

Why on earth would they make an HD unit and NOT offer digital out for video???? :confused:

It just doesn't make sense.

Because HDMI is no where near the dominant connection for HDTVs yet. That's component. This plus the fact that when they were finalising the specs for the 360 back in 2005, HDMI specs was no where near a reliable stable connection format. Almost a yeat after launch, we are still waiting for HDMI 1.3 to be finished.


Why would anyone want to use a 360 for HD-DVD?

It's VERY noisy, uses more than 140 watts idle and if the HD quality is anything like the SD-DVD it's gonna be terrible.

Reports from the X06 demos is that the HD-DVD playback is very quiet.

And besides that, Microsoft is making a fool of all the 360 owners with one vague HDMI comment after the other.

Most 360 owners don't care about HDMI. Only those who also happen to be HT buffs like you guys do.

Why would anyone want to use a 360 for HD-DVD?


Until you can get a standalone HD-DVD player for under $200, why WOULDN'T you?

we are still waiting for HDMI 1.3 to be finished.


This brings up an important point. If Microsoft DOES intend to bring out and HDMI adapter to please all of you whining about it, wouldn't it be smart of them to wait until 1.3 is finalized?

Otherwise you'd whine it doesn't support 1.3.

Yes, the XBOX360 will be limited on the Audio issues. Not so much on the Video capabilities.

Considering that:

1) There is no HDMI for 360. See statement by Microsoft employee amirm in the insiders thread:
Answer is simple: NO. There is no HDMI option. Only output options are VGA/Component.

2) HD-DVD movies can only be output in 1080p on VGA (not component). Again, from the insiders thread:
1080p is supported over VGA for DVD, HD DVD and gaming output.[...]
For component, you get gaming up to 1080p, and 1080i for HD DVD.

3) The 360 currently outputs on VGA a signal at the wrong scale:

XBOX 360 VGA Cable currently output RGB signal at so called "TV Scale" instead of "PC Scale" Most displays expect PC Scale from its VGA input, this will result in washed out picture (too bright picture) and loss in dynamic range if you try to compensate black level by turning brightness setting down.[...]This is very serious bug for XBOX 360 as HD-DVD player as it will ruin Hi-Def experiance for most of us who are certainly not an average Joe who can't tell the difference in image quality.

Most (maybe all) displays with VGA input expect PC scale and cannot setup to TV scale without loss in contrast.

I agree and that is why I said there will be more to come on the answer I gave.

It seems to me that the 360 with HD-DVD drive can't be defined as a "1080p" HD-DVD player. That means that to get the full resolution of the discs you have to rely on the TV's internal deinterlacer, which is in almost all cases very poor. Therefore i think that the 360 has serious limitations on the video side, too.

If one buys the xbox 360 vga cable, will one need to buy a simple vga to component cable or much more expensive vga to component transducer to upscale regular DVD's to a HDTV with a component input?

Does someone have the definitive answer?

If one buys the xbox 360 vga cable, will one need to buy a simple vga to component cable or much more expensive vga to component transducer to upscale regular DVD's to a HDTV with a component input?

Does someone have the definitive answer?

Transducer.
VGA is RGB signal, component is YPbPr.
Or you can use a component cable (directly out of the 360), but you will only be able to upscale DVDs to 480p.

You do realize that a digital output would need some firmware changes, right ?
Yes I do, it is still possible, as some rumors have suggested that some third party, let's for the sake of disscussion, say monster cable, is in discussion, as we speak with Microsoft, of course I am probably be wrong, but I heard that rumor somewhere, it was like $99 list. (ouch)

Want to see it handle VC1, well just download any 720p theatrical trailer. I recommand HARD CANDY witch is Beautiful and very detailed. While it's not VC1 per say, it's more WMVHD at 720p this is very much indicative of how it could handle VC1

BTW the Gamma in VGA on the 360 is really screwed up since the spring update, i have to use +5 Gamma boost on my Z4 to compensate, so if they don't correct this , this fall with the next update, be prepared to be Ultra Black Crushed..

This was posted in the latest Bungie Weekly Update, I thought you guys would want to know about the 10 second load times and quiet operation. :)

I loves me some HDTV and HD content. Don’t get me started on how annoyed I am at having owned an HD set for five years, but that I can only buy content for it now. That’s why I’m super-excited about the Microsoft HD DVD drive I just played with.

MS announced that the thing would ship in November at a retail cost of $199 US, and will include the fancy multimedia remote, as well as a bundled copy of Peter Jackson’s King Kong. Doesn’t matter if you own it already, since you NEED the HD version if you’re buying the drive, right?

The HD DVD drive is very, very quiet, and since the 360 drive doesn't run while playing HD DVDs, the whole thing is relatively silent (lord knows the 360 can make a noise when everything is running all at once). It has a small, laptop-style external supply, but that is not final. I assume that means the final one will be smaller, if anything. And I don't know if it will even definitely be external. I assume so, but it’s tiny, and the drive connects to your 360 with a simple USB cable. Speaking of which, it also has two USB ports on the back, so that you can re-attach your wireless adapter to the drive and not have to sacrifice the space on the back of the 360.

The thing starts up, from disc insertion to movie playing, in less than 10 seconds. This will be interesting news to owners of existing HD DVD and Blu Ray players, some of which had startup times of up to a minute! Ouch. The fast built-in OS of the 360 seems to be the deciding factor here.

The interface for disc eject and play is very simple and easy to use - a small circle split in two that lets you play or eject a disc from either drive. That of course means you can have a game and a movie in at the same time, and simply pick between the two. That interface may not be final, but right now it’s a boon if you’re playing one game frequently.

This was posted in the latest Bungie Weekly Update, I thought you guys would want to know about the 10 second load times and quiet operation. :)

Well the sound of the 360 while in Idle, or playing a DVD movie is about the same as the A1

What makes all the noise in the 360 is the Twister called DVD ROM as 12x that spin like MADNESS that account for 90% of the twister sound the 360 makes, play a demo on the HDD and it's wayyyyyyyyy more quieter since the rom isn't doing anything..

Does anyone know why microsoft keeps saying you can get 1080p from vga and componet cables.Just sounds misleading.

"Microsoft: We can offer 1080p support through both the VGA connection and the Component connection.
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/735/735904p1.html

Does anyone know why microsoft keeps saying you can get 1080p from vga and componet cables.Just sounds misleading.

"Microsoft: We can offer 1080p support through both the VGA connection and the Component connection.
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/735/735904p1.html

They say it because 1080p will work for both connections on GAMING output.

You sounds like you haven't checked out the DVD playck after the spring update. It's now right up there with the best upconverting players @ 720p (if you have VGA kit). Even with component, it's a pretty darn good 480p player now..

i've tried several dvd's in the 360 since the update and i still don't see anywhere near as good a picture as my upscaling Denon 1920.

oleus

i've tried several dvd's in the 360 since the update and i still don't see anywhere near as good a picture as my upscaling Denon 1920.

oleus

What kind of display? Most complaints I've seen on Xbox forums with regards to playback quality post-update have been LCD users, the least complaints being CRT (i.e. monitors).

XBox 360 HD-DVD Add-on Product Page (http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/x/xbox360hddvdplayer/)

Not much info, but there it is.

What kind of display? Most complaints I've seen on Xbox forums with regards to playback quality post-update have been LCD users, the least complaints being CRT (i.e. monitors).

it's a DLP projector, Infocus 7200. 360 HD games look fantastic, it's just the dvd player that disappoints me.

i use my Denon 1920 for hi-res audio as well as DVD, so i would never rely on the 360 for sd-dvd but i cannot wait to give the HD-DVD drive a spin when it arrives...if this drive doesn't do a g

oleus

i'm curious about using VGA for when the hd-dvd drive comes out. but i have a setup problem....

there is already a 25 foot run of vga cable going from my projector up through a dropceiling andback out through the wall where my equipment rack is. Since the xbox 360 needs the VGA/AV cables to hook into the 360, i assume i can't just plug this VGA cable i have into the 360. is the any kid of connector i could use to merge the vga cable i already have into the xbox 360 av/vga cable??

thanks
oleus

This what you're looking for? (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10416&cs_id=1041602&p_id=1191&seq=1&format=2&style=)

This what you're looking for? (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10416&cs_id=1041602&p_id=1191&seq=1&format=2&style=)

excatly what i'm looking for, thanks!!!!

on another note, will i see an improvement with 360 games using VGA as opposed to component? i've been really happy with the 360's component performance in games.

does anyone know if their is a vga to dvi cable or adapter that will upscale movies and such on the 360?I have a hitachi 46f500

excatly what i'm looking for, thanks!!!!

on another note, will i see an improvement with 360 games using VGA as opposed to component? i've been really happy with the 360's component performance in games.

It depends really. While I am a firm believer in "cables are cables, the cheap ones are just as good as the exotic ones" (if properly constructed of course), when it comes to audio, Video seems to be a whole new ball of wax.

VGA IMHO can produce picture quality superior to that of component. But you ask 99 other people the same thing and your liable to get mixed answers as to which is better between the two.

In my experience, although VGA is the superior connection, it degrades rapidly with bad cables. Also, the actual VGA connector itself presents an impedance mismatch to the signals. While not a big deal when you only have one on each end, you don't want too many in the middle (don't ever buy those cheap vga extension cords are your local PC store).

However, done properly VGA can run some seriously long distances with no noticable degredation in PQ, and give better PQ than component IMHO.

Problem is, ALL component cables are 75 ohm coax. I don't think you will find one that isn't. However, not all VGA cables are constructed of 75ohm coax (it should be), and that is what I think sometimes gives VGA a bad rap compared to component.

-Alan

It depends really. While I am a firm believer in "cables are cables, the cheap ones are just as good as the exotic ones" (if properly constructed of course), when it comes to audio, Video seems to be a whole new ball of wax.

VGA IMHO can produce picture quality superior to that of component. But you ask 99 other people the same thing and your liable to get mixed answers as to which is better between the two.

In my experience, although VGA is the superior connection, it degrades rapidly with bad cables. Also, the actual VGA connector itself presents an impedance mismatch to the signals. While not a big deal when you only have one on each end, you don't want too many in the middle (don't ever buy those cheap vga extension cords are your local PC store).

However, done properly VGA can run some seriously long distances with no noticable degredation in PQ, and give better PQ than component IMHO.

Problem is, ALL component cables are 75 ohm coax. I don't think you will find one that isn't. However, not all VGA cables are constructed of 75ohm coax (it should be), and that is what I think sometimes gives VGA a bad rap compared to component.

-Alan

I agree. I noticed a BIG improvement when I switched from component to VGA - games and movies. After the spring update, movies bumped up even another notch.

I agree. I noticed a BIG improvement when I switched from component to VGA - games and movies. After the spring update, movies bumped up even another notch.

so the black level problems with VGA were fixed with the last update right?

i'm curious about using VGA for when the hd-dvd drive comes out. but i have a setup problem....

there is already a 25 foot run of vga cable going from my projector up through a dropceiling andback out through the wall where my equipment rack is. Since the xbox 360 needs the VGA/AV cables to hook into the 360, i assume i can't just plug this VGA cable i have into the 360. is the any kid of connector i could use to merge the vga cable i already have into the xbox 360 av/vga cable??

thanks
oleus
This what you're looking for? (http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10416&cs_id=1041602&p_id=1191&seq=1&format=2&style=)

Actually, my MS branded VGA kit not only included a stereo RCA to 1/8" minijack adapter for the analog RCA stereo output, but also a VGA gender changer to plug into a monitor's cable directly. So, you should get one WITH the OEM VGA kit.

With no hdmi (currently) there is no way dolby digital plus can be used with this add on. Correct?

Why would anyone want to use a 360 for HD-DVD?

It's VERY noisy, uses more than 140 watts idle and if the HD quality is anything like the SD-DVD it's gonna be terrible.

And besides that, Microsoft is making a fool of all the 360 owners with one vague HDMI comment after the other.

Very misleading saying it is going to be noisy. When using the HD DVD player, the 360's internal DVD drive will not be active, thus the 360 will be extremely quiet when playing the HD DVD drive and since the HD DVD drive is extremely quiet (as reported by first hand previews) this will not be a noise issue.

Very misleading saying it is going to be noisy. When using the HD DVD player, the 360's internal DVD drive will not be active, thus the 360 will be extremely quiet when playing the HD DVD drive and since the HD DVD drive is extremely quiet (as reported by first hand previews) this will not be a noise issue.


From the Bungie.net site:




I loves me some HDTV and HD content. Don’t get me started on how annoyed I am at having owned an HD set for five years, but that I can only buy content for it now. That’s why I’m super-excited about the Microsoft HD DVD drive I just played with.

MS announced that the thing would ship in November at a retail cost of $199 US, and will include the fancy multimedia remote, as well as a bundled copy of Peter Jackson’s King Kong. Doesn’t matter if you own it already, since you NEED the HD version if you’re buying the drive, right?

The HD DVD drive is very, very quiet, and since the 360 drive doesn't run while playing HD DVDs, the whole thing is relatively silent (lord knows the 360 can make a noise when everything is running all at once). It has a small, laptop-style external supply, but that is not final. I assume that means the final one will be smaller, if anything. And I don't know if it will even definitely be external. I assume so, but it’s tiny, and the drive connects to your 360 with a simple USB cable. Speaking of which, it also has two USB ports on the back, so that you can re-attach your wireless adapter to the drive and not have to sacrifice the space on the back of the 360.

The thing starts up, from disc insertion to movie playing, in less than 10 seconds. This will be interesting news to owners of existing HD DVD and Blu Ray players, some of which had startup times of up to a minute! Ouch. The fast built-in OS of the 360 seems to be the deciding factor here.

The interface for disc eject and play is very simple and easy to use - a small circle split in two that lets you play or eject a disc from either drive. That of course means you can have a game and a movie in at the same time, and simply pick between the two. That interface may not be final, but right now it’s a boon if you’re playing one game frequently.

I didn't know that the HD DVD was going to have it's own power supply as well if this is true. Kinda thought it would have it's power supplied by the USB port of the 360. Another dang plug gotta find room for.

HDMI specs was no where near a reliable stable connection format.

You mean it is reliable now ?! ;)

I didn't know that the HD DVD was going to have it's own power supply as well if this is true. Kinda thought it would have it's power supplied by the USB port of the 360. Another dang plug gotta find room for.

Probably USB power is not enough ....

They gonna be releasing an internal HD DVD player at any point?

Is this add on going to be the cheapest HD DVD drive available? Do you guys think we will be able to yank the drive out and transplant it to our HTPC's. I know it will require a HDCP compliant card and software player. I guess what i'm trying to get at is this, how many of these add on drives are going to be raped of their drives to build a HD HTPC'S? I don't even have a 360 but at $200 i'm going to be getting one just to try, if it works i think MS will have a hard time keeping these in stock until a cheaper pc specific drive comes out.


Glen

Is this add on going to be the cheapest HD DVD drive available?

Yes, for sometime to come, I guess. The HD DVD external drive from HP is $349. When NEC and others come up with their internal IDE drives, I think it will be around $250-$300.

Infact considering that the addon comes with Kong and the remote, we are getting the drive for just $150.

So, if I use VGA on my 360 for this new player, can I leave the VGA connected all the time or do games suffer from quality? Is VGA a step down from component? Will my games look as good on my high def TV? (My TV is 720p not 1080p). Just curious on what I should do because I would like this to also upconvert my SD DVDs and I am in the market for a DVD player but don't want to but an upconverting DVD player and a high def player. Been leaning towards the 360 drive since I have a 360 already. When its released, if it sucks, I'll buy the Toshiba instead.

So, with this VGA, confused, you actually use VGA for high definition (yes my TV has a VGA port). Help, confused, thanks.on my samsung dlp, vga blows component out of the water for games and dvd.

on my samsung dlp, vga blows component out of the water for games and dvd.

I can't get mine to do that (I kept the VGA cable just in case). I played around for hours, compared everything and component is just slightly better. On movies it is barely better, on games it is way better.

Bummer, must be set dependent or something.

With no hdmi (currently) there is no way dolby digital plus can be used with this add on. Correct?

Correct.....but if PS3 uses 1.2 (not 1.3) HDMI it will not suppor the new HD audio formats either.

Correct.....but if PS3 uses 1.2 (not 1.3) HDMI it will not suppor the new HD audio formats either.

PS3 uses HDMI 1.3 which is fully BC

PS3 uses HDMI 1.3 which is fully BC


Not according to d3code

Quote
'The PS3 will have parts of HDMI 1.3 inside, only some parts of the hdmi 1.3 chipset they need to use. that is why sony ps3 is possible to release the ps3 in november. also from the get go it wont be possible to use HDMI 1.3 direct, but this will be fixed later on by firmware update. it will use hdmi 1.2A. logical since there aint a tv out yet that uses 1.3 hmdi "

AFAIK, HDMI 1.2 couldn't be firmware upgrade to 1.3. Correct me if I am wrong. What does parts of the HDMI 1.3 mean? Sounds like excuse for no HDMI 1.3 transmitter.

Not according to d3code

Quote
'The PS3 will have parts of HDMI 1.3 inside, only some parts of the hdmi 1.3 chipset they need to use. that is why sony ps3 is possible to release the ps3 in november. also from the get go it wont be possible to use HDMI 1.3 direct, but this will be fixed later on by firmware update. it will use hdmi 1.2A. logical since there aint a tv out yet that uses 1.3 hmdi "

AFAIK, HDMI 1.2 couldn't be firmware upgrade to 1.3. Correct me if I am wrong. What does parts of the HDMI 1.3 mean? Sounds like excuse for no HDMI 1.3 transmitter.

Not sure what d3code's source is. Has Sony announced any changes since Ken Kutaragi's (president and group CEO of Sony Computer Entertainment) statement? :

"PlayStation3 will be the most advanced computer platform for enjoying a wide range of entertainment content, including the latest games and HD movies, in the home. By introducing the next-generation HDMI 1.3 technology, with its high speed and deep color capabilities, PS3 will push the boundaries of audiovisual quality to the next level of more natural and smoother expression on the latest large flat panel displays."

http://gear.ign.com/articles/715/715311p1.html

Not sure what d3code's source is.

Sony Rep at the CEATAC show in Japan. He talked to them directly.

Sony Rep at the CEATAC show in Japan. He talked to them directly.

Gothca, thanks. Any links with the actual details and what the means overall? How does that effect games like Resistance that use 7.1 uncompressed audio?

Gothca, thanks. Any links with the actual details and what the means overall? How does that effect games like Resistance that use 7.1 uncompressed audio?

No links. I don't think 1.3 will bring anything to PS3 on the audio side. According to the logo, PS3 should decode everything inside and output as PCM. HDMI 1.2 does that just fine.

No links. I don't think 1.3 will bring anything to PS3 on the audio side. According to the logo, PS3 should decode everything inside and output as PCM. HDMI 1.2 does that just fine.

Thanks. So you are saying James63's post (below) was innaccurate then.

"Correct.....but if PS3 uses 1.2 (not 1.3) HDMI it will not suppor the new HD audio formats either."

Thanks. So you are saying James63's post (below) was innaccurate then.

"Correct.....but if PS3 uses 1.2 (not 1.3) HDMI it will not suppor the new HD audio formats either."

By support, James63 means DTS-HD/DTHD bitstream output. According to HDMI spec, only 1.3 could output raw bitstream for receiver to decode. Since PS3 should be able to decode everything to PCM, it shouldn't matter not be able to output the raw bitstream. You loss nothing.

Also, nobody knows the meaning of "parts of HDMI 1.3". I suspect PS3 support deep color space part of the 1.3 spec but not raw audio bitstream output. But you never know. :) Because Pio said they could output raw bitstream using a special implementation of HDMI 1.1/1.2.

By support, James63 means DTS-HD/DTHD bitstream output. According to HDMI spec, only 1.3 could output raw bitstream for receiver to decode. Since PS3 should be able to decode everything to PCM, it shouldn't matter not be able to output the raw bitstream. You loss nothing.

Also, nobody knows the meaning of "parts of HDMI 1.3". I suspect PS3 support deep color space part of the 1.3 spec but not raw audio bitstream output. But you never know. :) Because Pio said they could output raw bitstream using a special implementation of HDMI 1.1/1.2.

I see. I guess we will have to wait until people start experimenting with it. Thanks again :)

http://www.gamestop.com/product.asp?product%5Fid=802558

So I have a 360, and I want hd dvd. However I cant make up my mind wether to go with a stand alone box, or with the 360 ad on. What reasons would there be to not get the 360 ad on, and grab a stand alone?

The only things I can think of are these:

1. HDMI fudgery, will 360 really have it? Will I be happy with component if it does not?

2. What happens when my 360 craps out (like they all seam to do), now I have no dvd or game system... lousy!

The extra 200 bucks is not that big a deal to me. I do want HDMI for video (digital to digital), however I will not be using HDMI for audio (fiber), will this be a problem with a Tosh player? Can I do both HDMI and fiber at the same time?

So I have a 360, and I want hd dvd. However I cant make up my mind wether to go with a stand alone box, or with the 360 ad on. What reasons would there be to not get the 360 ad on, and grab a stand alone?

The only things I can think of are these:

1. HDMI fudgery, will 360 really have it? Will I be happy with component if it does not?

2. What happens when my 360 craps out (like they all seam to do), now I have no dvd or game system... lousy!

The extra 200 bucks is not that big a deal to me. I do want HDMI for video (digital to digital), however I will not be using HDMI for audio (fiber), will this be a problem with a Tosh player? Can I do both HDMI and fiber at the same time?


Honestly it will be hard to amswer this until the add on is actually released and we can see what it does/does not do and how the PQ/AQ stack up. Yes you can have HDMI/Optical at the same time (my A1 is hooked up to a projector via HDMI and just couldn't bring myself to just use the 2 watt speaker on the PJ :) and I have both analog outs and optical out to my receiver

I think you answered your own question when you said the extra $200 is not a big deal to you. Here's why:

1) As you mentioned, if you use your 360 for movies and games and either the drive or the 360 fails, you won't be able to watch HD-DVD's at all. Of course, if it's just the HD-DVD drive that fails, you could still play games but if the 360 fails, you're out of both until your 360 is repaired/replaced. Also, if you plan on doing a lot of movie watching, you're putting more wear and tear on your 360 (would could be important if you don't have an extended warranty).

2) The 360 HD-DVD will not have HDMI nor will it have the ability to output TrueHD au dio. Without HDMI, you won't have the ability to upscale SD-DVD's and with only an optical audio output, you won't have TrueHD. These might not be big issues to you, but it does make the extra $200 seem worth it IMO.

NOTE: As others have mentioned, the 360 isn't out yet so we really don't know how it's going to perform. Will it be faster than standalone units? What audio formats will it be able to output? Will the PQ be as good as the standalone players?

Now then, I can see a couple of reasons why the 360 drive might be a better choice:

1) Not confirmed, but I assume you'd still have access to your 360 Guide during HD-DVD playback. This means you could still check your friends list and receive incoming message from your gaming friends. So you could feasibly watch an HD-DVD while waiting for a friend to page you when he is ready to play a game (for example). Again, I can't confirm if you can do that but it would seem logical that you can since it works when you play standard DVD's.

2) The 360 HD-DVD drive seems to offer a great value at $200 with a free movie and remote. If you are a bit nervous about jumping into HD-DVD because of the format war, then it's a relatively inexpensive way to get a player and see how you like it. And again, the 360 drive could be faster than the standalone units which can take quite some time (G1 players for sure) to boot up and play a disc.

All that said, I already have an HD-A1 standalone player but I'm thinking about getting the 360 drive as well! I think it would be nice to have both, but my recommendation for which one you get it ambiguous. Since you mentioned that the difference in cost is not a big deal, I'd probably say just get the standalone and be happy with the best output options.

Well at first I was going to get it. Now that I've pre-ordered the A2, I'm backing off purchasing one. As mentioned above, potentially no HDMI and no Dolby TrueHD kind of puts me off.

Well at first I was going to get it. Now that I've pre-ordered the A2, I'm backing off purchasing one. As mentioned above, potentially no HDMI and no Dolby TrueHD kind of puts me off.

I plan to get both. The A2 and the add-on. I will get the add-on to get my feet wet, then get the A2 after a major price drop. I keep my 360 running cool and well ventilated. Those two things are key to the life of your 360. I also have a two year warranty, so that means I have until Feb 2008. The add-on is for those of us who have the 360 and sould like to jump into the format war without spending another $500. Some of us are able to do both, but the add-on gets me in early for the least amount of money. Considering I want the gameplay of the 360 and to be able to watch HD-DVD's. Now If I don't care to game, I would just buy a HD-A1.

The video play back of the HD-DVD's through the 360 component cable will be way better than standard dvds. HDMI is not a big deal for me. The HD movie trailers look outstanding on the 360. So everyone can judge for themselves, but I say if you have a 360 buy the add-on. You won't miss the TRUE-HD. When the stand alone players are at a resonable price, then go get your TRUE HD. The DD+ sounds really good too. Most will be pleased by it. Now the REAL HOMETHEATER people who have invested crazy amounts of money in their equipment, will have both. Because they can afford it!

Just my two cents! :)

The 360 add-on is a great "temporary" upgrade for those of us who don't want to spend a lot of money and already have a 360. Here is why:

HD-A1
- bulky size
- i don't have room for it
- long boot up
- would be a hassle to connect analog connections (and I don't have HDMI receiver either)
- 700 canadian dollars in Canada (not willing to spend that much)

HD-A2
- good size
- i still don't have room for it though
- quick boot up
- doesnt have analog, so I'd need a HDMI receiver to take advantage of DD+/TruHD (which I don't)
- will prolly be 700 canadian in Canada (still too much)

HD-XA2
- has everything I want
- i still don't have room for it
- will prolly be 1200-1300 in canada (waaaaay too much)

360 add-on
- should look more than fine over component at 1080i or 720p
- doens't require more video/audio cables and connections
- i have room for it
- will be 250 in canada, maybe even less?
+ comes with Kong (for the price it's a nice bonus, the toshiba doesnt come with any movies and it's much more money)
+ can't complain of lack of HDMI or dd+/truhd (since I wouldn't be able to use them with HD-A2 anyway)

With the add-on you don't have to worry about the HDMI ERROR.

Also, it's not entirely true that the 360 doesn't support TruHD. It downmixes it over the optical connection. People who have played with the device have said that downmixed TruHD destroys the normal DD+ track. So, while you're not getting the FULL benefit of TruHD, it's certainly there.

I'm also not sure why you guys bring up a "$200" price difference. The cheapest I've seen the player is at Walmart for $450, and that is still only the first-gen player.

(183 voters).. Aren't those the only two ways to get 1080p out of the xbox360 after the update?

Less than 3% - 1080P via VGA
Less than 1% - 1080P via Component

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=3921

.....

I'm also not sure why you guys bring up a "$200" price difference. The cheapest I've seen the player is at Walmart for $450, and that is still only the first-gen player.

Amazon has them for 399

EDIT: Although when you go to check out they have a ship date of Dec 4th....

Probably been asked a million times already but its likely The addon won't work on a PC through USB right?

Probably been asked a million times already but its likely The addon won't work on a PC through USB right?

It certainly would. Just not sure about the AACS movie playback part. :)

I just ordered mine from Amazon this afternoon and it said it will be shipping either tomorrow or Friday. I even called the company they go through Electronics Expo and there customer service said once they get the order it is shipped that day or first thing the next morning. Moving onto the 360 HD-DVD add on. I really have debated it the last two weeks and I told myself do I really want to use my 360 for movies especially as hot as the 360 gets after a couple hours. Also, MS is being stingy on the whole HDMI thing. If you read the threads on this forum and the reviews on the movies on http://www.highdefdigest.com you should definitely go with the A-1 instead of the add-on. I just bought a brand new Sony 60" SXRD and it does not support 1080p through the component cable only the HDMI. So MS saying they are going to have this software update for 1080p is not going to do me any good anyway. Only a few HDTV's out there can support 1080p through component cables. Whoever decides to get the 360 add on please let us know how it is.

Tormond. Can you verify that I could have HDMI to my receiver for audio and component to my HDTV for the video? Thanks!

Yes you can have HDMI/Optical at the same time (my A1 is hooked up to a projector via HDMI and just couldn't bring myself to just use the 2 watt speaker on the PJ and I have both analog outs and optical out to my receiver

According to this article at IGN, MS could release an HDMI cable for the 360:



September 27, 2006 - Updated 9/28

Microsoft just got back to us to clarify the Xbox 360's ability to transmit a digital signal. In short, it can, which means that Microsoft could conceivably release an HDMI cable for the Xbox 360. This is good news, and relieves a great deal of our concern over the Xbox 360's ability to effectively work with 1080p. Microsoft's full response is marked in the Q & A portion of this feature.

With this new information in mind, consider us relatively mollified. A future HDMI cable for the 360 will resolve the problems we outline in our discussion of 1080p compatibility. Let's hope Microsoft decides the market demands it sooner rather than later."


I'd post a link, but I'm restricted. It's at IGN under Gear then check latest news.

1. I want to put as few miles possible on my 360 for anything other than gaming. this first generation seems delicate enough as is.
2. You are still using software processing instead of hardware processing. Historically, hardware has performed better with less data loss.
3. If the HD-DVD controls for the 360 are anything like the DVD controls... Yuck.

The 360 add-on is a great "temporary" upgrade for those of us who don't want to spend a lot of money and already have a 360. Here is why:

HD-A1
- bulky size
- i don't have room for it
- long boot up
- would be a hassle to connect analog connections (and I don't have HDMI receiver either)
- 700 canadian dollars in Canada (not willing to spend that much)

HD-A2
- good size
- i still don't have room for it though
- quick boot up
- doesnt have analog, so I'd need a HDMI receiver to take advantage of DD+/TruHD (which I don't)
- will prolly be 700 canadian in Canada (still too much)

HD-XA2
- has everything I want
- i still don't have room for it
- will prolly be 1200-1300 in canada (waaaaay too much)

360 add-on
- should look more than fine over component at 1080i or 720p
- doens't require more video/audio cables and connections
- i have room for it
- will be 250 in canada, maybe even less?
+ comes with Kong (for the price it's a nice bonus, the toshiba doesnt come with any movies and it's much more money)
+ can't complain of lack of HDMI or dd+/truhd (since I wouldn't be able to use them with HD-A2 anyway)

Come on, you can find an A1 for $599 up here without even trying. Not to mention you can order it from Amazon for $399 US and only pay taxes and shipping across the border, no duties on electronics.

I've been looking and have found it. Footage of the 360 HD-DVD drive in action. It's low quality, but you can still see how it shines. You also can get a feel for the load time, which seems to be improved! This video seals the deal for me, I'M BUYING IT!!!

http://www.gamevideos.com/video/id/6237

Cool...

Did she say that you could use the vision camera while watching the HD movie?

I've been looking and have found it. Footage of the 360 HD-DVD drive in action. It's low quality, but you can still see how it shines. You also can get a feel for the load time, which seems to be improved! This video seals the deal for me, I'M BUYING IT!!!

http://www.gamevideos.com/video/id/6237


According the report Grubert posted, the load time is 10 seconds.

Cool...

Did she say that you could use the vision camera while watching the HD movie?
Not too sure about this one. Can you use the vision camera now, while watching HD video? If you can then I would think you could do the same during HD-DVD playback.

According the report Grubert posted, the load time is 10 seconds.
Where did you get this from? From the link I posted? If so were is it located on the page. i just watched the video. :D

Not too sure about this one. Can you use the vision camera now, while watching HD video? If you can then I would think you could do the same during HD-DVD playback.


I don't have the vision camera, so I can't answer. But, the video listed video chat as an Xbox 360 HD DVD feature.