Will temporary lack of 1080p24 native output hurt HD-DVD?

[audioNeil]

There is a buzz on the Blu-Ray boards about 1080p24 output on the new Sony BD player. Having just recently realized what 3:2 pulldown judder is (I've seen it forever, just never thought much about it), I realized that this is another selling point that Sony may jump all over.

The 1080i outputs on the HD-A1 are a non-issue, as it makes no difference to anything but the most brain-dead HDTV, but it is the BD's main distinguishing point, at least until the HD-XA2.

Native 1080p24 output won't help 99% of the real world either -- YET. But, it will future-proof the player in the case of HDTV upgrades in the coming years. While we have all lived with 3:2 pulldown judder in movies forever, there is likely going to be a real difference in quality when it is removed. It isn't about resolution -- it's about perceived smoothness. I'm sure we've seen video-based nature HD shows on TV that have that smoothness. I do remember thinking "hey, that's smoother than a movie". It may make our HDTV experience more "real".

Will Sony et al. jump on this as a reason why BD is "better"? Will Toshiba or another company's player do 1080p24 native output anytime soon? I would hate to see people actually think BD is better picture quality, just because Toshiba stayed with the Broadcom chip too long!

___________________________________________
UPDATE:
Does the XA2 have 24p output capability? Oshodi's linked thread says so, then says no, then gets into a philosophical discussion. If the XA2 has 24p, the reason for this thread is a bit moot.

[necrolop]

But what display do you use? Can it display a multiple of 24hz?

Ive long wondered about the judder, I only have 60hz to watch movies in and have never seen a movie in 24xhz, except on my 19inch LCd at 72hz but I couldnt really see a difference, possibly due to the size.

I somewhat find it hard to beleive that if the picture changes speed 24 times a second that it would be percievable.

[oshodi]

There is a buzz on the Blu-Ray boards about 1080p24 output on the new Sony BD player. Having just recently realized what 3:2 pulldown judder is (I've seen it forever, just never thought much about it), I realized that this is another selling point that Sony may jump all over.

The 1080i outputs on the HD-A1 are a non-issue, as it makes no difference to anything but the most brain-dead HDTV, but it is the BD's main distinguishing point, at least until the HD-XA2.

Native 1080p24 output won't help 99% of the real world either -- YET. But, it will future-proof the player in the case of HDTV upgrades in the coming years. While we have all lived with 3:2 pulldown judder in movies forever, there is likely going to be a real difference in quality when it is removed. It isn't about resolution -- it's about perceived smoothness. I'm sure we've seen video-based nature HD shows on TV that have that smoothness. I do remember thinking "hey, that's smoother than a movie". It may make our HDTV experience more "real".

Will Sony et al. jump on this as a reason why BD is "better"? Will Toshiba or another company's player do 1080p24 native output anytime soon? I would hate to see people actually think BD is better picture quality, just because Toshiba stayed with the Broadcom chip too long!
The new HD-XA2 does offer 1080P! You should probably read the info in this thread;

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=723570

[obie_fl]

The new HD-XA2 offers 1080P24->1080i60->1080P60 not the same as outputting native 1080P24.
In answer to the OPs question I would say very few care about 1080P24 since about 0.1% of the displays and a couple of scalers accept it.

[BIG ED]

In answer to the OPs question I would say very few care about 1080P24 since about 0.1% of the displays and a couple of scalers accept it.
That wasn't the question.
Good to know, however OP asked;

Will Sony et al. jump on this as a reason why BD is "better"? Will Toshiba or another company's player do 1080p24 native output anytime soon? I would hate to see people actually think BD is better picture quality, just because Toshiba stayed with the Broadcom chip too long!
As you can see it's all about "marketing".
Which Sony has used to their benefit before, w/o any real "benefit", ala 50GB disc.
Hence, people on the street think BD (25GB, at present) is bigger than HD DVD (30GB at present).

[Forceflow]

Native 1080/24p is nice, but I doubt its a fair selling point to most consumers. Then again, most consumers won't know that fact and will buy it because its

1. Sony
2. Sony is good.

Not realizing that Sony has changed faces about 10 times since they last purchased a CE device.

The marketing war seems to be won by Sony. The 150 million or whatever HD DVD was planning on being spent probably won't materialize until Sony has entrenched itself in consumer minds. I hope that HD DVD starts airing now (and I don't mean mentioning a DVD is out on HD DVD during an ad) to preempt Sony, but I see no signs of this. The mentioning that HD DVD exists is like putting (available in HD) people don't notice unless they have a vested interest in paying attention.

[Tolstoi]

There is a buzz on the Blu-Ray boards about 1080p24 output on the new Sony BD player. Having just recently realized what 3:2 pulldown judder is (I've seen it forever, just never thought much about it), I realized that this is another selling point that Sony may jump all over.

The 1080i outputs on the HD-A1 are a non-issue, as it makes no difference to anything but the most brain-dead HDTV, but it is the BD's main distinguishing point, at least until the HD-XA2.

Native 1080p24 output won't help 99% of the real world either -- YET. But, it will future-proof the player in the case of HDTV upgrades in the coming years. While we have all lived with 3:2 pulldown judder in movies forever, there is likely going to be a real difference in quality when it is removed. It isn't about resolution -- it's about perceived smoothness. I'm sure we've seen video-based nature HD shows on TV that have that smoothness. I do remember thinking "hey, that's smoother than a movie". It may make our HDTV experience more "real".

Will Sony et al. jump on this as a reason why BD is "better"? Will Toshiba or another company's player do 1080p24 native output anytime soon? I would hate to see people actually think BD is better picture quality, just because Toshiba stayed with the Broadcom chip too long!

___________________________________________
UPDATE:
It looks like the HD-XA2 may have native 1080p24 output as well as 1080p60 output for displays that don't accept the 24???? There so much FUD on this topic, I haven't figured it out. If indeed the XA2 has the 24p output capability, the reason for this thread is a bit moot.


Not really.

[William]

...In answer to the OPs question I would say very few care about 1080P24 since about 0.1% of the displays and a couple of scalers accept it.
I care because my projector accepts and displays 48Hz. ;)

[audioNeil]

But what display do you use? Can it display a multiple of 24hz?

Ive long wondered about the judder, I only have 60hz to watch movies in and have never seen a movie in 24xhz, except on my 19inch LCd at 72hz but I couldnt really see a difference, possibly due to the size.

I somewhat find it hard to beleive that if the picture changes speed 24 times a second that it would be percievable.

Well, the speed changes in a ratio of 3:2, 12-times a second. So, it's a 12 Hz judder that you see. Can you count to 12 in your head in 1 second? It's difficult but possible. Well, each of those numbers is the judder you see as an object with a clear edge does a smooth pan across your screen. I saw it clearly on Troy last night when I was watching the city walls pan by. I realize I've always seen it on pans.

And no, my display doesn't do 24 Hz natively. The issue is whether 24p output will be used as a Marketing tool by BD, even if it's FUD for 99% of current displays. However, like the best FUD, there is a grain of truth behind it -- 24p will make the world a better place one day for movies! And, given two $1000 players, one Sony BD and one Toshiba HD-DVD (without knowing that HD-DVD is best), I might even choose the 1080p24 one, if I were planning on getting a new HDTV between 1 and 3 years in the future (when 24p displays may be more common).

[necrolop]

I was watching Sleepy Hallow just now. And a scene in the forrest, has leaves on the ground, lots of thin dark edges. When the camera pans, a noticeable flicker occurs. Is it just how it is, I have a 1080p sony LCD and sharp edges on an LCD are very sharp, no dithering. So is this just a result of the movement of sharp edges, or is this caused by pull up judder?

[lymzy]

Will Toshiba or another company's player do 1080p24 native output anytime soon?


If someone cares enough about displaying 24p source without judder(48/72), then he would get an external video processor and reconstruct the perfect 24p from the 1080i60 output of HD DVD players. Or he could use a PC solution(currently laptop only) to get perfect 72Hz output.

Also, other hi-end CE manufacture will release HD DVD player with this feature very soon. So by the time 48/72 display become common, you will have many hd dvd players with 24p output.

[darinp2]

Pioneer has put support for this in at least some of their latest plasmas and Sony has added 1080p24 input with a multiple of that displayed to their Pearl projector (VW50). I don't know if they will add that to the RPTVs or other displays. I expect the 24Hz thing to be the next big thing with videophiles and moving down. You don't see 60Hz in commercial theaters with some frames shown twice and some three times, you see frame doubling from the 24Hz original (or maybe frame tripling in some cases).

While I don't consider it a huge deal, it is a little bit like going from DVD to HD for some in the sense that going back is hard to do. I do 1080p48 with HD DVD right now, but it requires a scaler to do it and takes away some of the "Blu-ray costs twice as much as HD DVD" argument when other components required to get the multiple of 24Hz picture are considered.

Just to confirm, I asked Toshiba about 1080p24 out of the X-A2 and they told me no, only 1080p60. And external scaler like the DVDO could get 1080p24, but there is that extra money thing again. And with PIP running, getting 1080p24 without problems by using an external scaler gets complicated and maybe impossible to do without artifacts.

--Darin

[William]

If someone cares enough about displaying 24p source without judder(48/72), then he would get an external video processor and reconstruct the perfect 24p from the 1080i60 output of HD DVD players. Or he could use a PC solution(currently laptop only) to get perfect 72Hz output...
My iScan VP 50 should be here any day. I can't wait to get rid of the judder from HD-DVD. Also you can't use 1080p 72Hz over HDMI/DVI but 48Hz gives the same results.

[bobgpsr]

And with PIP running, getting 1080p24 without problems by using an external scaler gets complicated and maybe impossible to do without artifacts.

As long as we are talking about external video processors with their prices...

Although I really don't care a lot about judder on a PiP talking head, it seems that is just another reason to do a serious upgrade and get a 120 Hz refresh display. Wouldn't that work if it had the right built in processing to take in the current flagged 1080i60 output of the HD DVD player and correctly display both the p/24sf film based content and 30p PiP content? Seem to recall Stacey or Ben saying this.

Bob

[darinp2]

As long as we are talking about external video processors with their prices...

Although I really don't care a lot about judder on a PiP talking head, it seems that is just another reason to do a serious upgrade and get a 120 Hz refresh display. Wouldn't that work if it had the right built in processing to take in the current flagged 1080i60 output of the HD DVD player and correctly display both the p/24sf film based content and 30p PiP content? Seem to recall Stacey or Ben saying this.
If the player could do it that would be great. I think it would be a whole lot more complicated for an external scaler to figure out was was PIP and what was the main image in that 1080i60 content it sees. I wouldn't want to have to design a system that could do that error free.

--Darin

[sfield]

There was a broadcom engineer that posted here a while ago that said the decoder in the HD-A1 is capable of 1080p24. The silicon image HDMI chip also has sufficient bandwidth for 24hz as well.

Shouldn't it be possible to support this in the HD-A1 with a firmware upgrade? Why isn't that happening?

[stoked]

There was a broadcom engineer that posted here a while ago that said the decoder in the HD-A1 is capable of 1080p24. The silicon image HDMI chip also has sufficient bandwidth for 24hz as well.

Shouldn't it be possible to support this in the HD-A1 with a firmware upgrade? Why isn't that happening?


Likely because Toshiba doesn't see mutiples of 24Hz output as a priority. There's only a the pioneer TV's that can accept it and a lot of projectors, but while pj's are pretty common these days, they're still much less common that flat panel LCD/plasmas. I'm hoping Toshiba releases a firmware update to their players, but I'm hoping even more that I can pickup a HD-DVD drive for my PC.

[Blkout]

1080p means jack sh*t, it's all marketing. Human nature thinks bigger is better.

[stoked]

1080p means jack sh*t, it's all marketing. Human nature thinks bigger is better.

Hahaha... all sorts of crap flying around. You got the Sony fanboys 1080p rules, then you got people saying that 1080p doesn't mean anything like this guy. For people with displays that can take mutiples of 24Hz, 1080p/24Hz DOES MATTER. I can't stand 3:2 pulldown judder.

[Blkout]

Hahaha... all sorts of crap flying around. You got the Sony fanboys 1080p rules, then you got people saying that 1080p doesn't mean anything like this guy. For people with displays that can take mutiples of 24Hz, 1080p/24Hz DOES MATTER. I can't stand 3:2 pulldown judder.


It's not about judder, it's about 1080p not looking any better than 1080i. You missed the point and the boat. I would expect you to defend your 1080p display since you wasted money on marketing hype. Kind of stings I'm sure.

[stoked]

It's not about judder, it's about 1080p not looking any better than 1080i. You missed the point and the boat.

This thread is about 1080p24 native output...

[Blkout]

This thread is about 1080p24 native output...


And again, not needed. Swim Forrest swim!

[stoked]

And again, not needed. Swim Forrest swim!

And why is it not needed? Are you going to link to some article that makes assumptions that ALL TV sets can reproduce 1080p from a 1080i/60 source perfectly? Or that no one can see 3:2 pulldown judder?

[darinp2]

And again, not needed. Swim Forrest swim!HD isn't "needed" either. What is your point? Are you claiming that there is no advantage to displaying at a multiple of 24Hz (like commercial cinemas do), or that you just don't care even if it is better (or something else)? Film is supposed to be displayed progressively, not interlaced, which isn't a problem with progressive displays but there is definitely an advantage to displaying each frame the same number of times instead of displaying some frame (like every other) a different number of times.

I don't know of any displays that can take 1080i in and display that progressively at a multiple of 24Hz, but maybe there are some. I already know there are displays that can take 1080p24 and show that at a multiple of 24Hz.

I may have been the first one who pointed out after CES how the Blu-ray camp was misleading people with the "We're 1080p and they're 1080i" stuff, but this 1080p24 is a real feature.

--Darin

[William]

It's not about judder, it's about 1080p not looking any better than 1080i. You missed the point and the boat. I would expect you to defend your 1080p display since you wasted money on marketing hype. Kind of stings I'm sure.
I have been using 48Hz from my HTPC to my projector with DVD's and there is NO judder. I see judder on all HD-DVD's and the iScan 50 will take 1080i 60Hz and incode to 48Hz to totally eliminate judder. It is too bad the player won't do this.

[rlsmith]

I can't believe 1080 24p would make much difference right now.

Largely, what you get rid of is judder.

I remember one time I had my WAF at a high-end demo, and the demonstrator was trying to show an example of judder and how 72p eliminated it. He must have run the demo 10 times, a piece from Titanic that had a very smooth digital pan in it.

My wife simply could not see what was going on. I could see it but, hey, not the biggest deal. [She still refers to this as an example of how I waste money on new equipment. And I didn't even BUY the equipment being demoed!]

A vastly bigger problem for me is the overall frame rate of 24fps. But this is a production issue, not a presentation issue anyway. [I want 4320 92p. :) ]

HD DVD will suffer no problems for this whatever.

[stoked]

I can't believe 1080 24p would make much difference right now.

My wife simply could not see what was going on. I could see it but, hey, not the biggest deal.

Well everyone has different sensitivities. I see judder and it annoys me. I don't see DLP rainbows, SDE doesn't really bug me, but someone else for example, may not know what judder is, sees rainbows on DLP's and will make a projector choice based on how bad SDE is. 1080p/24 isn't a dealkiller for me, just a would be nice, which is why I'd rather grab a HD-DVD drive and keep using my HTPC for playback if I can.

[ILJG]

I've posted time-points in HD-DVD movies where I thought judder was quite noticeable. Come to find out, I hadn't set my Sony SXRD XBR1 to Cinemotion to do the 3:2 pulldown for film content.

Doing so made quite a difference, but some judder is still detectable. But I've always noticed judder in SD-DVDs and even in the theatre sometimes.

I read the Pearl will handle 1080p24, does the Ruby do so natively? Is anyone running their HD-A1 through a video processor and outputting 1080p24 to a Ruby? And is the judder "gone?" I'd really like to see how this would work with a Pearl, too.

[darinp2]

I read the Pearl will handle 1080p24, does the Ruby do so natively? Is anyone running their HD-A1 through a video processor and outputting 1080p24 to a Ruby? And is the judder "gone?" I'd really like to see how this would work with a Pearl, too.I run 1080p48 to a Ruby (it won't take 1080p24) from both HD DVD and Blu-ray. There is still some judder that is natural with 24Hz just like with film in the theater (easier to see when the picture is bright), but the 3:2 pulldown judder seems to be gone. I can run "Lost" and "Boston Legal" from ABC-HD at 1080p48 also since the DVDO iScan VP50 can take film content in at 720p60 and pull the film frames out to get to 24Hz or 48Hz. It works well from what I've tested.

--Darin

[ILJG]

I run 1080p48 to a Ruby (it won't take 1080p24) from both HD DVD and Blu-ray. There is still some judder that is natural with 24Hz just like with film in the theater (easier to see when the picture is bright), but the 3:2 pulldown judder seems to be gone. I can run "Lost" and "Boston Legal" from ABC-HD at 1080p48 also since the DVDO iScan VP50 can take film content in at 720p60 and pull the film frames out to get to 24Hz or 48Hz. It works well from what I've tested.

--Darin

Interesting. Is the DVDO iScan VP50 the only video processor you've used in the middle (inbetween the HD-DVD player/Blu-Ray player and the Ruby)? I've heard very good things about it. Was wondering about others, too, if anyone else has experiences running their HD-DVD/BD players through a scaler/video processor.

I guess it makes sense that the Pearl will handle 1080p24 natively, since it's newer.

Thanks for that input.

I know I'm asking a lot, but if anyone has a setup like this, and I provide exact times in movies (The Last Samurai, Serenity, U571 especially), could someone maybe check to see if this intermediate processing gets rid of the judder at these times in the films? I've noticed spots where the judder is horrible, and the Cinemotion's 3:2 pulldown smooths it considerably, but it's still noticeable.

[darinp2]

Interesting. Is the DVDO iScan VP50 the only video processor you've used in the middle (inbetween the HD-DVD player/Blu-Ray player and the Ruby)?I've also used a Lumagen scaler and it works well also.
I know I'm asking a lot, but if anyone has a setup like this, and I provide exact times in movies (The Last Samurai, Serenity, U571 especially), could someone maybe check to see if this intermediate processing gets rid of the judder at these times in the films? I've noticed spots where the judder is horrible, and the Cinemotion's 3:2 pulldown smooths it considerably, but it's still noticeable.Just let me know and I'll see what I can do. I believe I have all of those discs and they aren't out on loan. I wouldn't mind having more test scenes in mind for this stuff anyway.

--Darin

[Mark0]

Nope, won't matter. I'd guess 99% of the general population doesn't even know movies are shot at 24fps, nevermind understanding interlacing, frequencies, etc...
What WILL make a difference is if Sony can release their players at a similar cost to HD-DVD.

[bitemymac]

Tehnically, no one does 1080p24 native with current hardware, however, the time Sony comes with 1080p24 enabled BD player, so would 2nd Gen Toshiba player should. I think the next firmware update (if around december) would likely include 1080p24 pass thru from the A1/XA1 and A2/XA2 only because Sony announced it on their player. One's trouble being able to take adantage of 1080p24 on the current display is topic of it's own.

So, my answer to the original question is "no". I think the real potential damage on HD-DVD is when BD starts releasing DL movies, or in H264 codec. Don't forget that Sony got the studios supporting many more great movie titles...

[alfbinet]

My iScan VP 50 should be here any day. I can't wait to get rid of the judder from HD-DVD. Also you can't use 1080p 72Hz over HDMI/DVI but 48Hz gives the same results.

Can this be achieved with the VP 30?

[William]

Can this be achieved with the VP 30?
No, the VP30 will not output 1080p 48Hz

[YONEXSP]

If 1080p24 is such a big deal, why did no one sell a 480p/24 DVD Player? I've run 72hz on my CRT for the longest time. I went to 1080p/60 , and did not make a blind bit of notice. If 3:2 pulldown was that big a deal, if would have driven 24p times x displays longtime ago.

[k.berger]

I know I'm asking a lot, but if anyone has a setup like this, and I provide exact times in movies (The Last Samurai, Serenity, U571 especially), could someone maybe check to see if this intermediate processing gets rid of the judder at these times in the films? I've noticed spots where the judder is horrible, and the Cinemotion's 3:2 pulldown smooths it considerably, but it's still noticeable.

If you post the times for Serenity (only one I have from those 3), I would love to try those on my set-up: HD-A1 -> LumagenHDP -> Electrohome Marquee 8000 CRT FP, running on 1080p/48, on 108" diag 16x9 screen. I just got Lumagen and I am still setting it up, so it would take some time though... (But so far. preliminary results are VERY interesting). I got scaler mostly for that reason actually, although it offers flexibility in setting other image parameters too, of course.

Kris

[darinp2]

If 1080p24 is such a big deal, why did no one sell a 480p/24 DVD Player?For one thing because the people who wanted a multiple of 24Hz rarely wanted 480p. One of the reason for the SDI modded DVD players and people using HTPCs was so that they could get a multiple of 24. It isn't like everybody will want it, but I think it will make its way from the videophiles on down to some degree. Sony could push it pretty hard with 1080p24 from the PS3 and then support in all of their displays going forward, along with little ads on Blu-ray movie discs pointing out that this is the way people watch movies in theaters. I believe they have supported at least one form of 24Hz (1080p24, 1080p24sf, 1080p48) in their projectors for at least 2 years.

--Darin

[necrolop]

Sony wont jump onto the 120hz bandwagon till next Summer.

Im having a hard time being convinced of judders percievability. Either way, Im stuck with 60hz for some time, My TV has to be used for more than a year, haha.

[ILJG]

I've also used a Lumagen scaler and it works well also.
Just let me know and I'll see what I can do. I believe I have all of those discs and they aren't out on loan. I wouldn't mind having more test scenes in mind for this stuff anyway.

--Darin


If you post the times for Serenity (only one I have from those 3), I would love to try those on my set-up: HD-A1 -> LumagenHDP -> Electrohome Marquee 8000 CRT FP, running on 1080p/48, on 108" diag 16x9 screen. I just got Lumagen and I am still setting it up, so it would take some time though... (But so far. preliminary results are VERY interesting). I got scaler mostly for that reason actually, although it offers flexibility in setting other image parameters too, of course.

Kris


Thanks, guys. Like usual, the slow pans are the obvious judder culprits. Last Samurai, below:


1) At 30:45 into the film (The Last Samurai), the camera pans left slowly across some kneeling Samurai. The armor they are wearing has intricate detailing. Flicker/Judder.

2) At 31:13, slow pan right. The bark of the tree in the foreground is very detailed, as bark on a tree always will be, if you think about it. Again, there's some "flicker" around the tree, and some motion judder from the pan.

3) At 49:36, slow pan left as they walk. Lots of flora...again "fluddering" for lack of a better term.

4) At 56:44, brief slow pan right.

5) At 1:17:18, slow pan downward on power lines.

6) 1:21:17 in Omura's office. Look at the detailed woodworking on the walls in his office. When there's no camera panning, the ability of HD-DVD to show that detail is incredible. But again, at 1:22:34 when there's a slow pan, I get the noise and some judder.

This can be said with all these scenes. You hit pause, and you marvel at the detail being delivered. You resume and let the scene with the panning continue, and the above symptoms occur.



Serenity, below:

1) At 0:53 into the movie, the slow right pan of the CGI city has some judder.

2) At 1:14:29 on the Miranda planet, there's a slow pan right. There are some portruding metal flaps on a building, or whatever they are, and the judder/flicker here is very noticeable.

3) Shortly after, at 1:15:55, the doctor's shirt has a lot of detail. See the noise there, too? (This happens very quickly so you need to keep a quick eye on it)



I forgot where I put the U-571 scenes, just another excuse to watch it again! I remember when putting Cinemotion on on the SXRD, a lot of the noise and some "flickering" went away, and the judder was substantially reduced, but still noticeable.

I'd love to get my hands on processors and pJ's like you guys have and compare it to what I see when viewing it on my SXRD.

Thanks again, guys.

[William]

Thanks, guys. Like usual, the slow pans are the obvious judder culprits....
Another one is the opening credits for Sahara when the camera is panning slowly around the room.

[gosawx]

Think about it, if you're Toshiba included 24fps output, what Toshiba TV could they sell with it. I'm not saying that it's not gonna happen, just that between there being no Toshiba TVs to support it, and the .001% of the userbase caring about it, I wouldn't hang my hopes on it

[ILJG]

Sorry Darin, forgot to ask, is it the Lumagen VisionProHDP processor you're talking about?

[darinp2]

Sorry Darin, forgot to ask, is it the Lumagen VisionProHDP processor you're talking about?It was the VisionHDP.

--Darin

[darinp2]

Thanks, guys. Like usual, the slow pans are the obvious judder culprits. Last Samurai, below:

1) At 30:45 into the film (The Last Samurai), the camera pans left slowly across some kneeling Samurai. The armor they are wearing has intricate detailing. Flicker/Judder.

2) At 31:13, slow pan right. The bark of the tree in the foreground is very detailed, as bark on a tree always will be, if you think about it. Again, there's some "flicker" around the tree, and some motion judder from the pan.

3) At 49:36, slow pan left as they walk. Lots of flora...again "fluddering" for lack of a better term.

4) At 56:44, brief slow pan right.

5) At 1:17:18, slow pan downward on power lines.

6) 1:21:17 in Omura's office. Look at the detailed woodworking on the walls in his office. When there's no camera panning, the ability of HD-DVD to show that detail is incredible. But again, at 1:22:34 when there's a slow pan, I get the noise and some judder.

This can be said with all these scenes. You hit pause, and you marvel at the detail being delivered. You resume and let the scene with the panning continue, and the above symptoms occur.
....
I'd love to get my hands on processors and pJ's like you guys have and compare it to what I see when viewing it on my SXRD.

Thanks again, guys.I looked at these parts in TLS and while I see some differences between 1080p48 and 1080p60, they aren't real big to my eyes and I don't feel like I saw a "fluddering" problem. I was a little further back than normal (maybe 1.4x the screen width) and a little to the side as someone else was in the good seat and I was controlling things, but I'm wondering if you are seeing more of an issue than I am. Do you have one of the SXRD RPTVs? You could be looking at quite a few more ft-lamberts than I am, which can bring out little problems. As far as the wood in Omura's office, it is detail while still and not while panning, but I think that is just a natural thing with film in general. Plus in the part I was looking at Tom Cruise was moving away from the wall and so that could explain some of the out of focus look to the wall behind him as they kept him in focus. But I wasn't noticing a noise issue while panning.

I was going through the VP50 for all of this with 1080i in and 1080p48 or 1080p60 out to the Sony Ruby. I'm not sure if the deinterlacer in your display would explain any of what you are seeing.

I'll have to find Serenity and look at it tomorrow night or the next day.

--Darin

[ILJG]

I looked at these parts in TLS and while I see some differences between 1080p48 and 1080p60, they aren't real big to my eyes and I don't feel like I saw a "fluddering" problem. I was a little further back than normal (maybe 1.4x the screen width) and a little to the side as someone else was in the good seat and I was controlling things, but I'm wondering if you are seeing more of an issue than I am. Do you have one of the SXRD RPTVs? You could be looking at quite a few more ft-lamberts than I am, which can bring out little problems. As far as the wood in Omura's office, it is detail while still and not while panning, but I think that is just a natural thing with film in general. Plus in the part I was looking at Tom Cruise was moving away from the wall and so that could explain some of the out of focus look to the wall behind him as they kept him in focus. But I wasn't noticing a noise issue while panning.

I was going through the VP50 for all of this with 1080i in and 1080p48 or 1080p60 out to the Sony Ruby. I'm not sure if the deinterlacer in your display would explain any of what you are seeing.

I'll have to find Serenity and look at it tomorrow night or the next day.

--Darin

Thanks, Darin. I appreciate the second set of eyes and the time you took to look at those spots.

Yes, the XBR1 is a RPTV. Without Cinemotion on (for film content) the judder is very noticeable. When it is on, it's much better, but I can still see it. I may just be very susceptible to it.

I think my next step is to get my hands on some hardware like this to see for myself. If I can't detect any judder with the intermediate video processing, then it'll point to lack of 1080p24 as the issue. Thanks again.

[William]

I was going through the VP50 for all of this with 1080i in and 1080p48 or 1080p60 out to the Sony Ruby...I'll have to find Serenity and look at it tomorrow night or the next day....
I'm so jealous, I wish my VP50 was here and not somewhere over the Pacific. :eek: Also Darin take a look at the opening credits to Sahara. Judder is very noticeable during the around the room pans. Several times the camera pans at the perfect speed to enhance the judder effect.

[NMJack]

In answer to the OPs question I would say very few care about 1080P24 since about 0.1% of the displays and a couple of scalers accept it.

Oddly enough, both my AE900 owner's manual and a thread on the <3.5K PJ forum suggest that the AE900 can accept 24fps. There are reports (that I have no way of verifying) that this input is displayed by the AE900 at 48Hz. If that is true, then that makes a large market of AE900 owners who would benefit from native 1080p/24 output from a player. Anyone have the facts on this?

[k.berger]

Serenity, below:

1) At 0:53 into the movie, the slow right pan of the CGI city has some judder.

2) At 1:14:29 on the Miranda planet, there's a slow pan right. There are some portruding metal flaps on a building, or whatever they are, and the judder/flicker here is very noticeable.

3) Shortly after, at 1:15:55, the doctor's shirt has a lot of detail. See the noise there, too? (This happens very quickly so you need to keep a quick eye on it)



OK, here are my early observations:
Even though I can't compare easily 1080p/48 with 1080i/60, after watching big chunks of Serenity (including pointers from above), my general impression is: "MUCH SMOOTHER!" The thing we have to pay attention to though is the fact that material filmed at 24fps has some built-in flicker "no matter what". With some particular speeds of camera's movement the difference in recorded images is just too great to create smooth pan, no matter what. So those of us who hope for it to be ultimate solution, it's going to be little disappointing... In particular, I think it's the case of second scene in Serenity (the one with metal flaps), They jump, but it does look different than judder for 3:2 cadence. For instance the beginning scene as well as most of outer space scenes with multiple moving objects together with camera movement, are very smooth, to the point that you can follow individual elements with your eyes and not loose detail at all. I don't think it would be possible with your typical 60fps presentation.
As for noise at second location, I can't really decide if I see it or not :( . It's really very rich fabric (the shirt), so I think it's not that great example. I paused it and moved frame by frame, and I would rather think that maybe I saw some noise-like imperfections on the face and neck, but I am not sure, and I watched the screen literally from few inches away.
As a side story, I can see some refresh rate related general flicker, specially on very bright objects...
To sum it up, I think it's (48Hz) improvement to some degree, but it is NOT huge... If not for Lumagen's ability to force Toshiba to output using correct color space (in my case), and very advanced gamma and grey scale adjustments, I am not sure it would be justified expense (Like we really need one! ;) .

Kris

[darinp2]

Oddly enough, both my AE900 owner's manual and a thread on the <3.5K PJ forum suggest that the AE900 can accept 24fps. There are reports (that I have no way of verifying) that this input is displayed by the AE900 at 48Hz. If that is true, then that makes a large market of AE900 owners who would benefit from native 1080p/24 output from a player. Anyone have the facts on this?I have an AE900 also, so I moved it to my main theater and tried it from the VP50. I found that anything with 1080p only showed part of the picture (like it was zoomed in). With 720p the projector synced to 720p24, 720p48, and 720p60. The 24 and 48 had some tearing type issues though. Since I haven't run 720p24 and 720p48 from the VP50 to anything else (just 1080p48 as the only 24Hz type output) I can't be sure that the problem was in the AE900 and not in the VP50 though. In any case, I didn't find any reasonable way to get a multiple of 24 with the AE900 without problems with my setup.

--Darin

[cpcat]

I have an AE900 also, so I moved it to my main theater and tried it from the VP50. I found that anything with 1080p only showed part of the picture (like it was zoomed in). With 720p the projector synced to 720p24, 720p48, and 720p60. The 24 and 48 had some tearing type issues though. Since I haven't run 720p24 and 720p48 from the VP50 to anything else (just 1080p48 as the only 24Hz type output) I can't be sure that the problem was in the AE900 and not in the VP50 though. In any case, I didn't find any reasonable way to get a multiple of 24 with the AE900 without problems with my setup.

--Darin

I use 720p72 to my AE900 for 1080i film sources. Lumagen HDP does the output. You have to select V. freq of 71.93 (it won't accept 72). I don't see any tearing and it looks excellent. Interestingly, I was unable to get a sync with p48 and the HDP won't do p24.

[73ChargerFan]

Likely because Toshiba doesn't see mutiples of 24Hz output as a priority. There's only a the pioneer TV's that can accept it and a lot of projectors, but while pj's are pretty common these days, they're still much less common that flat panel LCD/plasmas. I'm hoping Toshiba releases a firmware update to their players, but I'm hoping even more that I can pickup a HD-DVD drive for my PC.
I'd like to see a firmware upgrade to 24p also, if its possible. But if the G1 players can do it (because of hardware) but the G2 players couldn't, then I doubt they would.

My 58" HP DLP set accepts 1080p at 24 Hz refresh, but I haven't read of anyone trying to feed it an appropriate signal. Its hooked up to my HTPC with an nVidia card... I'll have to see if anyone has tried it that way. My current driver is locking me into 1080p at 60 Hz only.

[darinp2]

I use 720p72 to my AE900 for 1080i film sources. Lumagen HDP does the output. You have to select V. freq of 71.93 (it won't accept 72). I don't see any tearing and it looks excellent. Interestingly, I was unable to get a sync with p48 and the HDP won't do p24.I should have mentioned that I was using the HDMI input. Is that what you were using?

--Darin

[cpcat]

I should have mentioned that I was using the HDMI input. Is that what you were using?

--Darin

Yep. Watched 8 Below last night. Very good movie. Very Call of the Wild-ish.

I rechecked p48 and p24 and the results were the same. For p24, the HDP tells me "out of range".

[Quatre]

Toshiba HD-XA2? i thought XA1 just came out? is costco getting the xa1 anytime soon?

[danieledmunds]

Personally, the 1080p24 thing is a big deal. Lets not forget that we are going to be re-buying our movie collections. If I am going to commit to a format that is supposed to be 'next-generation' I want the HD player to play decent movies at native 1080p, with no artifacts, de-interlacing, noise or judder. Until that time I really don't see much point in buying. If you can 'put up' with these things why not just watch DVDs a little further away from the screen?
Somebody at Toshiba please take note.

[Category 5]

I was watching Sleepy Hallow just now. And a scene in the forrest, has leaves on the ground, lots of thin dark edges. When the camera pans, a noticeable flicker occurs. Is it just how it is, I have a 1080p sony LCD and sharp edges on an LCD are very sharp, no dithering. So is this just a result of the movement of sharp edges, or is this caused by pull up judder?

Until side by side comparisons are done most people are going to assuem they have seen judder, but really just confuse film's 24fps flicker for such an effect. 24fps flicker is different, is normal, and you will even see it on panning shots in a movie theater. For years, filmmakers have been using lower shutter speeds, and motion blur to help hide flicker...but it is a normal artifact of the temporal resolution of film.

Judder is an artifact that comes from intermediate frames being displayed for 33% longer than the others. In other words, in a 60 hz system even frames are displayed for 2 fileds, and odd frames are displayed for 3 fields.

Most people are insensitive to the effect of judder, and do not see it. Many people who chime into this thread claiming they have seen it will be talking about 24fps flicker, which is in fact a much more apparrent artifact, but in the film world it is often credited with part of the "larger than life" effect of movies.

[Category 5]

If someone cares enough about displaying 24p source without judder(48/72), then he would get an external video processor and reconstruct the perfect 24p from the 1080i60 output of HD DVD players. Or he could use a PC solution(currently laptop only) to get perfect 72Hz output.

Also, other hi-end CE manufacture will release HD DVD player with this feature very soon. So by the time 48/72 display become common, you will have many hd dvd players with 24p output.

I am sure when 24p displays become more common they will have internal processors to reassemble 1080i60/1080p60 content, and display them in true 24fps motion. The process would not be complicated at all. Native 24fps formats are nice because they will be simple for 1080p24 sets to display, but I guarantee the logic in mainstream sets will be smart enough to recognize 24fps content, and display it that way.

[bfdtv]

Toshiba HD-XA2? i thought XA1 just came out? is costco getting the xa1 anytime soon?The Toshiba XA1 was discontinued. The XA1 is a first-generation unit; it was released at the same time as the A1 back in ~April 2006. The A1 and XA1 were identical in every way (i.e. all internals identical), except for the outer case.

The A2 and XA2 are the second-generation models. There are a number of internal differences between these two models.

[metalsaber]

I say not on the 2nd generation models. I would say the 3rd gen models should have it standard. That way the 3rd gen release takes place around when 24p displays are really hitting the market in full force.

[orogogus]

Likely because Toshiba doesn't see mutiples of 24Hz output as a priority. There's only a the pioneer TV's that can accept it and a lot of projectors, but while pj's are pretty common these days, they're still much less common that flat panel LCD/plasmas. I'm hoping Toshiba releases a firmware update to their players, but I'm hoping even more that I can pickup a HD-DVD drive for my PC.

Winner. It's not a feature because Toshiba doesn't see it as a priority. I know that folks behind the scenes are trying to change their minds, but at the end of the day they are still a big japanese company.

It will come sooner or later, the Sony marketing juggernaut will see to that. It's a good feature and has synergy for Pioneer between their players and displays. Panasonic will see the light too IMO, and HD DVD will follow suit. Whether they can do it before the XA2 sees the light of day remains to be seen, but at this stage in the game I doubt it highly.

I agree that HTPC is becoming a very tempting place to build my own dual-format player (especially if BD-ROMs come out like they have for HD DVD-ROM). However, the audio side is problematic there, as is getting the horsepower to smoothly decode H.264 and still have a quiet box. :(

[alfbinet]

Nope.

[Spizz]

I say not on the 2nd generation models. I would say the 3rd gen models should have it standard. That way the 3rd gen release takes place around when 24p displays are really hitting the market in full force.

Definetly not on the 2nd Gen units, maybe on the 3rd-

http://www.hifi-writer.com/blog/20060629.htm

wondered whether a Toshiba HD DVD player with support for 1080p24 output is planned for the near future.

The Castel Electronics chap who was MCing the event hand-balled that one to the three chaps from Toshiba, Japan, who had flown out for the occasion. They explained that the HD DVD specification does not, as yet, provide for 1080p24 output. However it is under consideration.

[nataraj]

Will Sony et al. jump on this as a reason why BD is "better"?

Then the answer would be "If 24p is important how come Sony TVs don't accept 24p" ?

[Grubert]

Then the answer would be "If 24p is important how come Sony TVs don't accept 24p" ?

Then the answer would be "If 24p is important and Sony TVs don't accept 24p, then don't buy them - and buy a player and a display that both support 24p".

Joe Kane (remember, the one who said Blu-ray was "all about greed"), Greg Rogers (of Widescreen Review) and Evan Powell (of ProjectorCentral) all think 1080p24 is important.

[scaesare]

Until side by side comparisons are done most people are going to assuem they have seen judder, but really just confuse film's 24fps flicker for such an effect. 24fps flicker is different, is normal, and you will even see it on panning shots in a movie theater. For years, filmmakers have been using lower shutter speeds, and motion blur to help hide flicker...but it is a normal artifact of the temporal resolution of film.

Judder is an artifact that comes from intermediate frames being displayed for 33% longer than the others. In other words, in a 60 hz system even frames are displayed for 2 fileds, and odd frames are displayed for 3 fields.

Most people are insensitive to the effect of judder, and do not see it. Many people who chime into this thread claiming they have seen it will be talking about 24fps flicker, which is in fact a much more apparrent artifact, but in the film world it is often credited with part of the "larger than life" effect of movies.

Well, using the "most people" descriptor, I'm tending to think they won't really pay much attention to the jumpiness of 24p or the judder of 3:2 at all. Sad but true.

However, I think I have to disgree with your assertion regarding the subset of the population that does notice it. It's my experience that the eye tends to pick up on anomolies that stand out of a regular pattern much more eaily than continuous patterns.

Hence, your brain will let even the relatively slow frame rate of 24p look like reasonably fluid motion, because each frame is like the last one. But when you introduce the uneven steps of 3:2 judder, and objects that are supposed to be moving the same distance at regular intervals, and instead the object moves different distances at irregular intervals, your eye picks up on that much more readily.

Thus I'd bet the majority of people who would notice an anomoly would be responding to cadence judder, not framerate jumpiness.

[scaesare]

Personally, the 1080p24 thing is a big deal. Lets not forget that we are going to be re-buying our movie collections. If I am going to commit to a format that is supposed to be 'next-generation' I want the HD player to play decent movies at native 1080p, with no artifacts, de-interlacing, noise or judder. Until that time I really don't see much point in buying. If you can 'put up' with these things why not just watch DVDs a little further away from the screen?
Somebody at Toshiba please take note.

Amen.

And I'll bet that the drive to get it sooner, rather than later, will be "because the other guys have it", rather than because it's the right thing to do.

But that's fine with me.. just bring it on!

[TimV]

It seems like right now, it's not that big of a deal, simply because there are a limited number of displays that can accept and display 1080p/24.

Hopefully within the next year or two, this will change. I agree with the posters here that think it will make a difference. Eliminating all the processing / deinterlacing / scaling that occurs now can only be a good thing.

[Quatre]

what exactly is 1080p/24?

[magi1500]

It's not about judder, it's about 1080p not looking any better than 1080i. You missed the point and the boat. I would expect you to defend your 1080p display since you wasted money on marketing hype. Kind of stings I'm sure.

Don't be too hard on this guy. This topic is just a bit beyond him. In fact, I think his response was indicative of an above average consumer (coming to the realization that a 1080i60 display looks almost identical to a 1080p 30fps display when the source was originally progressive). But understanding the visual benefit of native 24p output requires an extra level that we're not going to see except from the elite of the elite.

Which is why I wouldn't hold my breath that Toshiba will be supporting it anytime soon.

[Grubert]

what exactly is 1080p/24?

Resolution 1920x1080, 24 full frames (progressive) per second.

Material that has been digitized from a 35-mm film source is basically 1080p24, fit into 1080i60 (progressive with segmented frames) and with proper 3-2 reversal deinterlacing, can be converted back into a true 1080p signal.

With film material, 1080p60 achieves really nothing over 1080i60, because you still have 3-2 judder: of each two frames, one is repeated twice and one three times. So the image is jerky.

That said, most of the population in NTSC countries have become so inured to judder that they may not even think there's anything wrong with the picture.

[Laserfan]

I wouldn't hold my breath that Toshiba will be supporting it anytime soon.I dunno, when you consider to what lengths the industry has gone engineering-wise to deal specifically with video-from-film-source issues (Faroudja! SiliconOptix! et al) wouldn't ya just think that extracting 24p off a HD disc and outputting it would be an honest-to-Pete slam-dunk piece of kiddy-cake by comparison? :p

[Sam S]

Everyone does realize that even 1080p/24 will still have judder, right? Even at 48 frames a second. 72hz scan rate with film sources starts to smooth things out, but can look a bit unatural (or just different that what you're used to seeing from film).

[JOHNnDENVER]

It's hard to be happy. I'm pretty happy with 1080i even 720p in current broadcast standards given what HD-DVD has given me to date.

It does seem logical that eventually everything will just go native and your display will be expected to handle it. When? I dunno. But everybody sure seems to love my new HD-DVD player. I have been getting asked more and more what I am watching and when since I got it. :) Judder and all.

[Grubert]

Everyone does realize that even 1080p/24 will still have judder, right?

Only on a CRT display. On a pixed-panel digital display, where pixels are individually addressed, as long as the refresh rate is a multiple of 24, it doesn't matter.

[Sam S]

Only on a CRT display. On a pixed-panel digital display, where pixels are individually addressed, as long as the refresh rate is a multiple of 24, it doesn't matter.

I disagree. You're not going to have smooth, judderless pans at 24fps. Even projected movies show at 48fps, and visable judder is easy to spot.

[BuGsArEtAsTy]

In answer to the OPs question I would say very few care about 1080P24 since about 0.1% of the displays and a couple of scalers accept it.
Yup. Maybe by AVS standards I'm not a really early adopter, but I am by most people's definitions and... I won't really care much until I can get a 1080p24 player for $199 and a 50-inch 72 Hz SED with 1080p24 input for $1999. Call me in 2010.

I must admit though, I have never actually seen a 1080p24 72 Hz setup. Does it really remove all the inherent problems with a 24 fps source? Cuz on pans, you're still getting 3 of the same frame, before it jumps to the next 3 identical frames. As Sam suggests, a major problem here is the source's 24 fps frame rate.

[JOHNnDENVER]

I have nopticed judder on film pans, from film, in film based pay theaters from time to time. So it is an interesting perspective on this for sure that we can never be rid of it. :)

[danieledmunds]

Either way, if Toshiba added support, it would clear this up issue. I will definately be buying HD DVD as soon as player comes that supports this - even if there is still judder, at least I can blame the filmmakers and not my player!

[scaesare]

Everyone does realize that even 1080p/24 will still have judder, right? Even at 48 frames a second. 72hz scan rate with film sources starts to smooth things out, but can look a bit unatural (or just different that what you're used to seeing from film).


So we are all using equal terms:

Framerate Judder: "Jumpiness" casued by the FRAMERATE of the picture. Typically ascribed to 24p film source material. Natural result of framerate selection of original film footage.

3:2 Cadence Judder: Uneven "Jumpiness" caused by the 3:2 frame cadence introduced by telecive, that is having to pack 24p in a 60i container. Typically ascripbed to film material played back on a video display with a 60hz framerate. NOT the natural result of the original framerate selection, but rather an anomaly caused by film sourece packed in a video delivery mechanism.

Flicker: Visually dectable "strobing" effect wehn the refresh rate of the playback device is below the visible threshold. Often visble on slow-resfresh CRT's (i.e, < 60hz).


With this in mind, a 72hz scan rate can reduce flicker, but not frame rate judder. You have kind of a mixed post there.

[BuGsArEtAsTy]

The way I interpreted his post was that 3:2 cadence judder would be removed, but we'd still have framerate judder.

AFAIK, that is correct, although I must admit I had forgotten the correct terminology for this.

[Laserfan]

So we are all using equal terms:

Framerate Judder: "Jumpiness" casued by the FRAMERATE of the picture...If I assume this is "accepted terminology", as you are clearly a smart guy, I would still want to argue with any that state movies running at 24fps have "judder". They have what-they-have which is a just-barely-adequate frame rate for average human beings. Let's hope too that the sprocket holes aren't too worn. ;)

But whenever I see the term "judder" used I think of any previously-constant framerate which (thru some type of conversion) now has an uneven cadence.

This gets more complicated every day... :o

[godsantagonist]

Please do not attack personally. Please keep you arrogance and condescension to a minimum.

Thanks

Don't be too hard on this guy. This topic is just a bit beyond him. In fact, I think his response was indicative of an above average consumer (coming to the realization that a 1080i60 display looks almost identical to a 1080p 30fps display when the source was originally progressive). But understanding the visual benefit of native 24p output requires an extra level that we're not going to see except from the elite of the elite.

Which is why I wouldn't hold my breath that Toshiba will be supporting it anytime soon.

[BuGsArEtAsTy]

If I assume this is "accepted terminology", as you are clearly a smart guy, I would still want to argue with any that state movies running at 24fps have "judder". They have what-they-have which is a just-barely-adequate frame rate for average human beings. Let's hope too that the sprocket holes aren't too worn. ;)

But whenever I see the term "judder" used I think of any previously-constant framerate which (thru some type of conversion) now has an uneven cadence.

This gets more complicated every day... :o
It's very easy to see the framerate judder in movie theatres, especially in pans, if you sit close to the screen.

[Sam S]

The way I interpreted his post was that 3:2 cadence judder would be removed, but we'd still have framerate judder.

AFAIK, that is correct, although I must admit I had forgotten the correct terminology for this.


Yep, that's exact what I meant.

So, my main point being 1080/24p is not necessarily the holy grail. Would it be nice? Sure. But you're still going to have judder artifacts with horizontal pans, either at 1080p/24/48/60.

And to answer the original posters question: NO! ;)

[vurbano]

I agree. The answer is No

[nataraj]

Then the answer would be "If 24p is important and Sony TVs don't accept 24p, then don't buy them - and buy a player and a display that both support 24p".

Joe Kane (remember, the one who said Blu-ray was "all about greed"), Greg Rogers (of Widescreen Review) and Evan Powell (of ProjectorCentral) all think 1080p24 is important.

Wrong answer. Not something that Sony wants to use ...

The question is not technical (I very well know about 24p, as you can guess) ... OP's question was marketing related.

[TheLion]

The lack of 1080p/24 output won't help HD-DVD - so much is for sure :rolleyes:

[scaesare]

If I assume this is "accepted terminology", as you are clearly a smart guy, I would still want to argue with any that state movies running at 24fps have "judder". They have what-they-have which is a just-barely-adequate frame rate for average human beings. Let's hope too that the sprocket holes aren't too worn. ;)

But whenever I see the term "judder" used I think of any previously-constant framerate which (thru some type of conversion) now has an uneven cadence.

This gets more complicated every day... :o

I agree, and actually personally don't refer to 24p frarate issues as "judder", but many people do without qualifying what it is. Furthermore I agree that "judder" to me is the 3:2 cadence issue, hence I always try to say "3:2 judder".

I'm open for something else to call the 24p issue. How about "anitquated stutter"? :D

Incidentally, part of the reason for my post is that Sam S said: 72hz scan rate with film sources starts to smooth things out, but can look a bit unatural (or just different that what you're used to seeing from film).

For fixed panel displays, 72hz should look identical to 24p film, because they don't have flicker associated with them. So no "smoothing" takes place.

[scaesare]

It's very easy to see the framerate judder in movie theatres, especially in pans, if you sit close to the screen.

Agreed, although Laserfan seemed to be indicating that for him the term judder equats to 3:2 cadence judder. If somebody doesn't qualify what they mean, and it's not obvious from context, that's what I tend to assume too.

Incidentally, I agree with you about the closer you sit to the screen, the more obvious 24p judder is. That's why in an earlier post I mentioned I suspect that many people don't see 3:2 ssues at home, due to screen size/viewing angle.

[danieledmunds]

OK, I go back on everything I say! I saw the Pioneer blu ray hooked up to their 50" 1080p (5000EX in the UK) at 1080p24 and there is still judder! It just looked more uniform than HD DVD, I guess judder is here to stay for a while. Interestingly the sim2 HT5000 was projecting HD DVD MI3 on a 12' screen and judder was less noticeable than the 50" pioneer, which leads me to believe that processing is the main consideration when reducing judder. I am off to buy a XA-1 now!

[AtlPaul]

No.

[eonibm]

And then there is this comment, posted on endgagethd.com today in reference to the addition of the Reon-VX chip to the Toshiba HD-XA2 HD-DVD player that is just being released:

"The issue is that the new "next gen" dvd formats support overlays. So what happens is that things like menus, chapters, timelines, picture in picture needs to be rendered on top of the movie and then shown on the TV. The processing which occurs to add these elements to the signal is occuring on an interlaced picture (the components to do it on a 1080p24 signal are still too expensive (I suppose). Therefore they need a chip like this to convert the updated picture from the modified 1080i60 into the 1080p60 output.

It is unfortunate that typically all you want to do is just watch the movie which would be a straight transfer, but they do need to support all of the advanced features."

Does this mean true pass-through is actually not possible? And can this Reon-VX chip convert the modified 1080i60 into 1080p24 output?

[mdpedersen]

i have a small question then.. is the 3:2 pulldown done in the player? i always thought that they did it on the discs, i mean that they produced the HD DVD's in 60hz/fps ? but where exactly is the 3:2 pulldown happening? when i understand where it is happening i think i will better be understanding what need to be done to fix it i guess :)

[Capek]

The content on the disks is 1080p24. The player performs the 3:2 pulldown to output at 1080i60. The XA2 has a second video chip, the SO REON, that takes the 1080i60 and deinterlaces it. And with a firmware update that is reportedly coming, will be able to perform reverse pulldown, to get back to the 1080p24 output.

[mdpedersen]

The XA2 has a second video chip, the SO REON, that takes the 1080i60 and deinterlaces it.

deinterlaces it to 1080p?

[Grubert]

deinterlaces it to 1080p?

To be precise, in the current configuration deinterlaces it to 1080p60 (relatively useless).

There have been reports of an upcoming firmware update that will enable 1080p24 (much better).

However, I doubt any of the G2 HD DVD players will feature native 1080p24 straight from the disc.

[Capek]

However, I doubt any of the G2 HD DVD players will feature native 1080p24 straight from the disc.
I don't think there's any doubt about it. The configuration of the current players won't allow it, unless the A20 is a major departure for the design of the XA2.

[mdpedersen]

To be precise, in the current configuration deinterlaces it to 1080p60 (relatively useless).

There have been reports of an upcoming firmware update that will enable 1080p24 (much better).

However, I doubt any of the G2 HD DVD players will feature native 1080p24 straight from the disc.

so if its not gona be native from the disc, we will have somethng like:

- from disc (1080/24) -> 1080i/60 -> 1080p/60 -> 1080/24 ?

thats a hell of alot converting back and forth..