Hello-

As some of you may have read my wife and I are moving into a new house and we were looking to buy some small speakers for the living room. We ended up ordering some Orb Audio Mod 1s and while impressive for there size and great for HT, I am not happy with them for pure Music (my number one concern). My Wife, howeve LOVES them and now she will not let me look at anything else.

We have done what all good married couples do - we compromised.

Instead of getting a new Plasma TV I am going to get a pure 2 channel stereo set-up. I also get a room to set up anyway I like. Smallish room, but very square at 12' X 11'.

What I am looking for is a nice set up (speaker AND electronics) for less than $2000 (the price of a decent 42" Plasma/LCD)



I have a rough Idea of the speakers I want to audition. The short list is KEF iQ5, Focal Chorus 716S, Monitor RS6 and PSB T45. I am a previous PSB owner and I loved them. Any other ideas there would be great.

I am also looking for a nice set up to drive said speakers.

As far as a dedicated amp/cd combo I am pretty much clueless. Integrated/CD, or Pre, amp and cd player? Who makes a decent high bang for the buck set up?

Ideas and suggestion are REALLY appreciated.

thanks

ty

Also will consider a nice monitor/ sub combo.

Ty it looks like you have a pretty good idea of what speakers you like, as far as components there are many different options. I would look at integrated amps for two channel setup, offerings from Cambridge Audio 640A v.2, Music Hall A25.2, Rotel 1062 just to name a few. Most of these companies also offer a cd player that matches up nicely to their respective equipment. You could also go the route of a pre-amp matched with an amp with a cd player. With your budget you could split the costs about 50/50 to get a nice two channel setup.

I will second the Rotel. I also recommend looking into NAD. Check out audiogon.com for used electronics. You can get a very high bang for buck factor from that site.

For speakers I will add Vandersteen (1C and 2CE signature's) to that list.

Stereojunkie-

Yeah the speakers are the easy part for me =) It is the electronics that I find myself stuck on.

I have looked at Rotel and NAD and even ADCOM (My dad has a really nice ADCOM setup and he pushes for those guys). Cambridge I just discovered last night after some digging. I will do some looking at Music Hall.

Is there a huge difference between an integrated and pre/amp setup? It seems to me the connections between the amp and preamp would be better left as a hardwire?

thanks

Nuance-

Audiogon has become a good friend of mine! I never new that place existed.

I have heard a lot of good things about Vandersteen but I do not have a dealer real close by. The speakers I listed all have dealers in the same town, so it is easy to listen to them. The nearest Vandersteen dealer is almost 3hours away =( But if they are that good for the money I will make the drive.

Thanks!

Ty

for amp try sonic impact super t-amp half the price of a nad 320bee or 325bee which i also recommend

if you dont play loud the new focal jmlab chorus 807v big bookshelf is worth a listen

Ty it looks like you have a pretty good idea of what speakers you like, as far as components there are many different options. I would look at integrated amps for two channel setup, offerings from Cambridge Audio 640A v.2, Music Hall A25.2, Rotel 1062 just to name a few. Most of these companies also offer a cd player that matches up nicely to their respective equipment. You could also go the route of a pre-amp matched with an amp with a cd player. With your budget you could split the costs about 50/50 to get a nice two channel setup.
The only Rotel integrated amp is 60 watts/ch, and sells for $700. The 60 watt Cambridge model is $400. Are these really comparable in performance? If so, the Cambridge would clearly be the better buy (especially since this same price relationship applies to the matching CD players also.) :cool:

by when watt per channel has become "the" main criteria for choosing an amp?

much better choose speakers and then select the amp

My question then is do I need to upgarde the quality of the speakers I am looking at? Is it better to spend 1500$ on speakers and only 500$ on electronics?

I can honestly say I have sat and listened to B&W 604s on some REALLY nice amps (Krell I think) back to back with the 703s also from B&W and while there was some SLIGHT sound difference to my ears I think I actually enjoyed the 604s better. Granted the fit and finish on the 700s was better and they are simply sexy speakers they are not a real good bang for the buck set. I am trying to maximize my bang for the buck with this set up with an eye open for the future.

That is why I am putting half into the electronics, that way later I can update the speakers and still have a decent set up to drive them.

Having said that I do have a HARD spending limit of $2000. What in the opinion of the fellow boarders would be the best way to spend that 2k?

Thanks

Ty

by when watt per channel has become "the" main criteria for choosing an amp?

Who said it was? When comparing amps from two manufacturers, it makes sense to choose the most similar ones. Watts/ch is one way to decide which ones are similar.

Is it better to spend 1500$ on speakers and only 500$ on electronics?

Maybe not that exact ratio, but I would put more into the speakers. I would also put more of the electronics budget into the receiver or amp than the CD player ($150 will buy a really nice-sounding CD player these days. My Onkyo DX-C390 being one example.)
The 700 series are great speakers, but at a high price. I would stick with the 600's on a budget.

For a good 2 ch setup, I'd definitely go a bit higher on the speaker side. You probably have an old CD player that you can use in the interim, and then just get a good stereo pre/amp, and upgrade your cd player down the road. Speakers tend to last the longest (unless you get hit with a bout of upgradeitis) so spending more on speakers from the get go will do you better in the long run.

Clepto-

It seems to me that to go up in speaker grade from the ones I have listed is to take a pretty big hike in price. I can always move up the ladder in the range (i.e. instead of iQ5 get an iQ7) but with the size of my room I don't see the need.

Don't get me wrong what you have said is exactly what I want to hear but I would like your input on just what to move up to?

Oddly enough the only CD player I have in the house is an old Onkyo 6 disc CD/DVD changer that works like Poo. I have a couple of upconverting Sony DVD players, but hauling that back and forth is not on my to-do list =).

Thanks again!

Ty

a room of 12 x 11 is very bad for audio. a floor stander may be too bass heavy resulting boomy bass and muddy mids

what type of music you prefer?

b&w speakers can dip to 3.4ohm so a good amp which can supply more current is needed. krell is famous for bass and current so matching with 60x. however in long term listening the artificial highs and disco bass from krell may give you fatigue. krell gives you very good and expensive electronic components, design, chassis and appeal to newbies. you will notice that there are a lot being sold in 2nd hand market because you will get tired of the sound after a year or two.

nad 320bee or 325bee originated from the famous 3020 which has been proven good sounding. there have been mods discussed in audio asylum how to make the 320bee to sound better.

regarding the sonic impact super t-amp there seems to be a cult to mod to make it better. lots of discussions already been made in diyaudio forum. very strong with piano, strings and guitar which are rich in harmonics

cpu8088-

I listen to mostly light rock, folk, little country, a little heavy rock, little pop. It is pretty much all over the charts.

For the record I am not interested in Krell amps or B&W speakers, not because either of these are bad but one is out of my price range (Krell) and the other does not really appeal to me (B&W) for the money.

So for the size room you think that I should grab some monitors and a sub? Or omit the sub? I will admit that bass is not a HUGE thing to me as long as it is tight and controlled. The room size is why I am looking at the smallest floor standers in the respective ranges I have available to me.

The line-up of NAD stuff sounds interesting, but that battleship gray...ick. Is it a crime to want your stereo gear to look as cool as it sounds? =)

No ideas for Tube amps? i thought for the small room they would be almost a perfect match?

Thanks again!

Ty

Yes I am at work and have nothing better to do than answer this thread. 0.o

If you can put a pair of monitors 2 or more feet out from a rear wall, I would highly suggest the Alegria Audio Emmas. They require no subwoofer (good to below 40Hz with ease), and I personally find them to be among the more lifelike speakers I've ever had the pleasure of listening to. They run about 699 retail.

As far as associated electronics, I would definately keep it at least 50/50, with the whole garbage in, garbage out mantra playing heavily in that area. I'm personally looking at the Outlaw Audio RR2150 stereo receiver (solid review in Stereophile, Soundstage, etc) as it features lots of goodies including a phono input (if you're inclined to add it in the future), bass mgmt, and a solid 100wpc. As far as the source goes, I'm a fan of Marantz CD players myself (I find they have a good bang for the buck).

as i mentioned earlier the 7 inch mid/bass of focal jmlab chorus 807v should be sufficient. no sub is needed.

to integrate a sub with 2 bookshelf speakers may create more problems than not if you have not been into this hobby for long.

go for some 2 or 3 way with 7-8 inch mid/bass not 6.5 inch as a general criteria. bookshelf plus stand or floorstander if space permit

i have not read stereophile oct 06 issue but someone mentioned there is a review of the sonic impact super t-amp and classified as class c recommended component. if true it will be worth a read.

tube amp? you switch it on then go and have dinner, and then sit down and have a listen.

i rather have the super t-amp some saying it is tube like sound, and you can save a lot of electricity bill. this is a green thing

does anyone have any more specific feedback around the Cambridge CD players? I've read nothing but good things about them, but havent heard one myself.

I recently acquired an Arcam Avr100 ( thanks audiogon! ) that i really enjoy, but don't want to invest in the matched CD player from Arcam.

As such, Im thinking about replacing my CD player with some of the models the OP is looking at, and I think the Cambridge would match my setup best, both in SQ and aesthetics.

thanks to all for your input. great forum.

go for some 2 or 3 way with 7-8 inch mid/bass not 6.5 inch as a general criteria. bookshelf plus stand or floorstander if space permit

I would say yes and no...Particularly in the case of the Emma's which have a special motor structure, it has been shown that a 6.5" driver can indeed delve quite deep (some testers of it have reported usable output at 20Hz, and it is speced to 36Hz at -3dB). While I don't have measuring equipment personally, it does even a fine job with light HT duty and it definately does a fine job with rock (although of note it isn't the most efficient speaker to grace the planet).

As far as the T-amps go, I have heard good things about them, but if the listener is going to be pushing volume at all, I doubt even the super t-amp would do the job of say a pair of Outlaw monoblocks (~325 a pop). Now if size is an issue, a good choice might be the Parasound Z-amp (45wpcx2), although I wouldn't use it for too hard of a speaker load (such a small amplifier does have its limits) for 300 a pop. If it were my money though, something like the Outlaw RR-2150 (599), the Alegria Emmas (699), and a Marantz CC-4300 (249) would be a good way to go. Get some good quality wiring, interconnects, and stands, and you would still have a few bucks left over to expand your CD collection.

does anyone have any more specific feedback around the Cambridge CD players? I've read nothing but good things about them, but havent heard one myself.

I recently acquired an Arcam Avr100 ( thanks audiogon! ) that i really enjoy, but don't want to invest in the matched CD player from Arcam.

As such, Im thinking about replacing my CD player with some of the models the OP is looking at, and I think the Cambridge would match my setup best, both in SQ and aesthetics.

thanks to all for your input. great forum.
I will be interested in this also. Now that I am 100% satisfied with my speakers, my next upgrade can be electronics. I like what I have, but a matched set of silver Cambridges would look mighty nice on my shelf. :D (Only if they also sound great, though.)

Stefano-

Thanks for the input! I have been looking at the Outlaw receiver also. The company as a whole seems to get pretty good remarks about it. Seems they know what they are doing.

As for the speakers you recommended I would have no idea to go about getting a listen to those guys. Went to the web site and they look impressive.

cpu8088-

thanks for staying on top of this thread lol.

I will put the 607 on my list when I go to listen to the Focals. If you could give me your input on why the 607 would be better for my room than say the 714 I would apprecaite it. Counting a nice set of stands the price will probably be about the same for the 607 and the 714 so I am interested to hear your views on why the monitor would be better for my room than the slight floorstander.

Checking into the super T-amp as I type (love firefox).

The tubers that a buddy of mine has (Cayin model) only has about a 60 second warm up time. Not sure if this is abnormal, but that amp and his Paradigm speakers make a super nice couple. Very nice even at low volumns.

Thanks again!

Ty

cpu, I have been curious to hear the new chorus v line. They look very sleek and sexy, and hopefully sound even better. For your budget I would still say 50/50 or 60/40 giving a tad to the speakers. My two channel setup, I have a set of bookshelves (Onix 250's) in a 10x13 room and was running them off of an older denon head unit 3600. Rated at 100-110watts, pretty good unit back in it's day. Anyways when I switched in the Cambridge 640A v.2 rated at 75watt, I can say that there was a big difference. Much more punch and dynamics with the Cambridge, it was almost like listening to new speakers. My point, don't let some power ratings fool you into something that they are not. Many of the integrated amps have true raw power ratings probably leaving them a bit under there full capabilities with headroom to spare.

Matro, do a search over on the cd forum, there are a few threads regarding the Cambridge cd players, comparisons, reviews, etc.

Man this forum goes fast sometimes!

Matro-

I have been doing an awful lot of research on the Cambridge stuff and I am liken what I am a hearin'. Have not really read anything too bad about any of there products. This coming weekend will be a listening and auditioning extravaganza for me and the wife and it just so happens that Madison WI has a dealership for Cambridge. I will tell you what I think...if that matters to you =)

Stefano-

I will not be playing anything too loud at all. In fact I need to find components that work reasonable well at lower volumns. I have 4 kids aged 11-2 that go to sleep WAY before I do. I will be in the basement however so I can crank it a tad.

parasound, thought that was out of my budget. I had no idea they made less-costly stuff...will check it out thanks. Your set up listed does sound nice though.

PULLIAMM-

If you remember you just picked up some B&Ws in the 600 series. I had a first generation set of 601s that I was really fond of until I purchased my PSBs. I understand they changed the series up quite a bit...think they are worth a listen?

Thanks all

Ty

714 will become the old chorus series. good choice too if you want a pair of floorstanders. because of the new 800v series coming out you should be able to get a good discount on the old 714. your local focal dealer should be able to demo to you the two side by side.

tube amp generally needs more than 60 sec to stabilize or warm up fully.

for t-amp check

http://www.michael.mardis.com/sonic/start.html
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/ampbox/page2.html

Unfortunately it is a very small up and coming net-based company. Depending on where you live, you might be able to get an audition though (its based out of Seattle; and if you're in the DC area, I'd give you an audition!!). I would use the whole "you would only be out shipping charges" spiel to get you an audition, but nah. The guy who runs it might be able to hook you up with someone local though.

Other speakers worth looking at though:
Paradigm Studio 20 (excellent balance)
Klipsch RB-81 (dynamics and efficiency anyone; great w/ tubes)
Wharfedale Evolution Series
Magnepan MMG (will need a sub and hefty amplifier; reasonably priced though; excellent sound overall)
Epos M 5 (great sound/overall value)

http://www.parasound.com/halo/p3.php

with a nice 2 channel amp, have seen these go as cheap as 450.00

Man this forum goes fast sometimes!

Matro-

I have been doing an awful lot of research on the Cambridge stuff and I am liken what I am a hearin'. Have not really read anything too bad about any of there products. This coming weekend will be a listening and auditioning extravaganza for me and the wife and it just so happens that Madison WI has a dealership for Cambridge. I will tell you what I think...if that matters to you =)

Stefano-

I will not be playing anything too loud at all. In fact I need to find components that work reasonable well at lower volumns. I have 4 kids aged 11-2 that go to sleep WAY before I do. I will be in the basement however so I can crank it a tad.

parasound, thought that was out of my budget. I had no idea they made less-costly stuff...will check it out thanks. Your set up listed does sound nice though.

PULLIAMM-

If you remember you just picked up some B&Ws in the 600 series. I had a first generation set of 601s that I was really fond of until I purchased my PSBs. I understand they changed the series up quite a bit...think they are worth a listen?

Thanks all

Ty
If you have a chance to listen to the 540C/540A combo, I would love your feedback as that is what I was considering.
My understanding is that the new S3 600's are a major improvement over the older models. I love mine. Of course, if you prefer PSB then you do. Nobody is trying to suggest you should prefer the B&Ws.

cpu-

thanks for the links. Whomever makes that aluminum amp chassis has some serious skills. I used to be a welder/grinder and that is some polish job. I am impressed. I do have a question. Am I missing something on the rating for that amp. 5-8 watts? Now I know it is more of a quality, not quantity thing but that seems really low.

Stefano-

Appreciate the audition offer, but I am in Wisconsin..that is right in middle of you and the company lol.

I am a fan of Paradigm, but as I have mentioned my good friend has some and we have a hard core my speakers are better than yours thing going on. I cannot sell out! With the PSBs it was Canada vs. Canada. Thinking maybe to get some french (Focal) or some British (monitor, KEF) into the mix. PSB sound is my reference point however as I find them VERY easy to listen to.

monster-

thanks I had no idea!

PULLIAMM-

I will add them to the ol' list of things to listen too. Again I really like my B&Ws..until I got the PSBs. But I know they went to the new nautilus style tweeter and that could really make a difference.

I was thinking the 340c/340a but I will sure listen to the 540 series and let you know what I think.

Thanks again

Ty

Indeed, the Parasound Z-amp is 299 and the preamp is 349. They're pretty small, which as I said, leads to their only real flaw: don't match it with too difficult of a load.

"Into 4Ω the power doesn’t double (that would be a level surface at the top) but it’s still quite substantial considering the less-than-monstrous power supply and it holds up well at all phase angles. Into 2Ω and 1Ω the output declines precipitously but it’s still far from negligible, and there is no sagging at any phase angle."

Courtesy of The Audio Critic.

Some very good suggestions so far. Unfortunately, getting a rig to sound right requires a lot more than simply throwing some amps and speakers together and hoping for the best. I'd definitely choose my speakers first and then audition a nice integrated to properly drive them. Whatever you do, don't buy merely on suggestions. Find out for yourself and come to your own conclusions. Vandy, for example, is a real "Love 'em" or "Hate 'em" proposition for most people. There are few speakers that I can think of that foster more obdurate opinions than Vandersteen.

Some recommendations for audition would be:

* Von Schweikert VR1's - astonishing standmounts with speed and dynamics to burn. Very musical and not hi-fi'ish at all. More than enough speaker for your room and listening habits and will easily scale upwards with your front end.

* Paradigm Studio 20 V3 - excellent all 'rounders and easy to find and audition. Image like crazy.

* Focal Cobalt 806S - lively and engaging. Some feel the tweeter runs hot, so listen to them for a while and see if fatigue sets in.

I'd usually recommend Maggies (1.6 or MMG's), but don't think they'll sound very good within your tight confines. Bipolar's, especially panels, need a lot of room to sound right unfortunately. I also think your squarish room is going to wreak havoc with a bass happy floorstander, (although you could always treat the room to deal with the nodes).

Front end components are far easier. For a budget 2 channel, it's hard to argue against the simplicity of an integrated versus the Preamp/Amp route. Going full separates means you have to worry about synergy between the pre and amp (no small thing, btw), IC's, dual power points, space, etc. Certainly, you have more flexibility with separates, but do you really need it?

Most of the usual suspects have already been mentioned (Cambridge Audio, Rotel, Nad). In fact, I'm listening to a CA 540a and 540c in my office as I'm typing this and have been very happy with them for a few years now. The highest endorsement I can give them is that both have operated flawlessly for the past two years, 8-10 hours a day, 5 days a week without a hint of strain or quirkiness. Considering the amp is pushing a 4 ohm nominal load and doesn't even get warm, that's a considerable achievement.

Besides the obvious contenders, you might consider:

* Creek - clean, ballsy, well built
* Jolida - here's the tubes you were asking about. Warm, self-biasing, highly musical and engaging. Pair with the VR1's (to pick up the slack on the bottom end) and you've got a helluva starter system.
* Audio Refinement - typical YBA sound; warm, lush, and slightly romantic. Highly musical and not the least bit fatiguing.
* Primaluna - another tube integrated with harmonics and musicality. Build is a shade better than the Jolida, which is not a slam on the Jolida btw.
* Music Hall - detailed, punchy, and well built. Great cd players, too.

Great cd sound can be had for very little money so pick a source and be happy. Any Denon, Marantz, or Music Hall will do.

Lot's and lot's of choices! Audition everything you can and enjoy the process. A well sorted rig can provide years, if not decades, of enjoyment!

Hope this helps.

Also as far as the audition offer goes, it wouldn't hurt to e-mail them anyways to see if anyone around you has bought them. I generally try not to be too much of a shill, but when I find something I love, its hard not to recommend it.

thebigtea:

I have thi set-up in my office and for the money it rocks!! This et-up compares favorably to other systems that I have at home that are way more expensive.

Aperion 633-T tower speakers @ $1000/pair from wwww.aperionaudio.com. (Shipping included)

NAD C352 Integrated Amp @ $599

NAD C542 CDP @ $499

I bought my NAD gear from www.soundseller.com. They offer generous discounts if you call their 800 number

Stefano-

thanks again.

topsepeed-

super post thanks. I do intend to listen to everything I can get my ears on. It is sometimes hard to get this speaker with this amp however. Also due to the distance between my home and any nice audio store in home auditions can become a bit hard.

would pairing say the Cobalts up with one of the warmer amps be a good thing? I have looked at the MMGs and my interest was pirked until I realized that they need some breathing room and some serious oomph to get them to work. I fella in used to hand out with in Green Bay was a HUGE Martin Logan guy and on certain music those speakers would just carry you away. I can sure see their draw.

I will look into those other items you listed and thank you very much.

Ty

Stefano-

I know how you feel. I was the same way with my PSB 4Ts. Told everyone about how awesome they were/are for the money.

BoxerBoy-

Thanks for the ideas. I have heard lots of good things about aperion. The speakers sure are pretty looking too =)

Thanks

Ty

As far as the Magnepan MMG's go, they also make a version that is designed to be wall mounted, the MMGW (299). Again, they like their power, and they will require a subwoofer, like something from HSU (the STF-1 perhaps for 299). But that leaves a heck of a lot of space open for a source and amplification. A pair of Outlaw monoblocks (325 apiece) would provide more than suitable power however, and still leave breathing room in the budget.

PS: As far as Aperion goes, while they are ID only, they pay shipping both ways IIRC.

would pairing say the Cobalts up with one of the warmer amps be a good thing? I have looked at the MMGs and my interest was pirked until I realized that they need some breathing room and some serious oomph to get them to work. I fella in used to hand out with in Green Bay was a HUGE Martin Logan guy and on certain music those speakers would just carry you away. I can sure see their draw.

Ty,

It's hard to say if the Focal's would benefit from a warm sounding amp until you hear them yourself. As mentionedl, some people find them to be a tad aggressive. Whether or not you do depends on your musical tastes, hearing ability, and the room they are playing in. All have a dramatic affect on perceived sound quality. That said, from my experience I would likely pair them with a warmer amp.

MMG's are often mislabled as hard to drive when the reality is the opposite. MMG's present a stable, constant load so any amplifier with a decent amount of current can drive them. Even 4 ohm receivers can do the trick. Now, the big Maggie's are another story...

Panels offer very enticing qualities with unmatched speed and beautiful clarity (usually). The challenge, in particular with smaller examples such as the MMG is that they possess limited dynamics and tend to beam thereby rendering a very small sweet spot. For acoustic, chamber, or vocals, it's hard to imagine a better budget buy than the MMG. For rock, hip/hop, pop, uhh...not so much.

Pulliam, here's a review of what you're considering

http://audioenz.co.nz/2005/cambridge_azur540.shtml

Do what you want, I just regret wasting a great vintage Carver on someone who just doesn't have a clue...you just don't get higher end audio, and I doubt you ever will. The CD player sounds nice, but I have no doubt you'll regret the amp purchase, but go ahead and enjoy you're matching silver boxes. :eek:

Sorry to be so harsh, but you're just not right in the head, dude, and you waste a lot of unnecessary money doing nothing. :(

The Focal Cobalt series is being phased out and there are some really good deals to be found on them. I have seen a pair of 816's going in the $1k / pair range lately.

Because I was doing 5.1 and my dealer was unable to get anymore of the Cobalts, I went with the Chorus 700 series and I love them. If I was only doing 2 channel though, the 816's would have been in my living room for sure.

jewel5-

I am pretty new into the hi-fi scene...I was hoping you could help me "get" high end audio? I may be silly but I thought the idea behind it was to buy what you enjoy and enjoy what you buy. Who are we to tell anyone what is good for them? One man's trash is another man's treasure...

boxwes-

I really like the look of the Focals, I am not real happy that they are not bi-wireable. But listening is the only way to tell right?

thanks

Ty

BitTea...shut up if you don't know what you are talking about. :mad: I just gave..ie free of charge, Pulliam a vintage Carver integrated amp b/c I was stupid enough to feel sorry for him b/c he supposedly couldn't afford something of higher quality, and not 1 month later, he's talking about replacing it with a cheaper built int. with lukewarm reviews!! :eek: That's stupid, rude, and ungrateful. :mad: Pulliam, if you don't like the amp, I will pay you to ship it back to me, that way you can get something that matches, :rolleyes: , you know, in case you want to wear it to a party. :( I haven't even deposited your check for shipping, I can send it back, that way it can go to someone who can appreciate better gear, this is just insulting, to me and Bob Carver. :eek:

jewel5-

I am pretty new into the hi-fi scene...I was hoping you could help me "get" high end audio? I may be silly but I thought the idea behind it was to buy what you enjoy and enjoy what you buy. Who are we to tell anyone what is good for them? One man's trash is another man's treasure...

boxwes-

I really like the look of the Focals, I am not real happy that they are not bi-wireable. But listening is the only way to tell right?

thanks

Ty

As noted above, there is some history between Mark (Pulliamm) and Jewel. I too would be a little upset if he was going to case aside an amp I gave to him free of charge in less than a month. Jewel, you still made a great gesture in what you did. That was really nice of you.

Thebigtea, unless the amp is under powering the speakers or is giving off audible distortion, there will be no difference in sound (unless you are comparing solid state to amps such as tube and/or monoblock). Just be sure the amp (or amps in the receiver) has low total harmonic distortion and comes close to the power rating given by the manufacturer when the unit is actually measured with all channels driven. If you can find a real review of the amp or receiver in question, they should provide measurements in which they tested the true power with all channels being driven as well as the total harmonic distortion. And lastly, a beefy power supply will always help. If the amp weighs 10 pounds, it may not be the most reliable. Good luck to you in your search and remember to take your time and have fun.

Mark, Jewel is right; you have it bad man. The disease has taken over buddy...

Thebigtea, unless the amp is under powering the speakers or is giving off audible distortion, there will be no difference in sound (unless you are comparing solid state to amps such as tube and/or monoblock). Just be sure the amp (or amps in the receiver) has low total harmonic distortion and comes close to the power rating given by the manufacturer when the unit is actually measured with all channels driven.

you are saying all amps the same

If you can find a real review of the amp or receiver in question, they should provide measurements in which they tested the true power with all channels being driven as well as the total harmonic distortion. And lastly, a beefy power supply will always help.

you are saying amps not all the same. it depends on beefy or not beefy power supplies.

i am confused :D


If the amp weighs 10 pounds, it may not be the most reliable. Good luck to you in your search and remember to take your time and have fun.

there are many under 10 lb class d amps around

you are saying all amps the same



you are saying amps not all the same. it depends on beefy or not beefy power supplies.

i am confused :D



Yes, all soild state amps are the same IMO if they have low THD, accurately rated power and plenty of it, and beefy power supplies. I also never stated that the power supply will effect sound, only that it will help with the reliability. This is just my opinion and I hope that clears your confusion up. ;)

On a different note but still related, Stereo Review performed a double blind amp test. No one could tell the difference between a $300 receiver and many others including a multi-thousand dollar separate amp. Many forum members have also partaken in blind amp testing; the results were/are the same. In fact, I have partaken in one, but apparently the testing process was flawed (which was immediately pointed out by some forum members) because it was fairly easy to tell them apart. I have never re-performed the test, but I will one day.

On the other side of things, many people claim that only after an extended period of time has been spent with the amp can one truly realize the differences. Well, in my opinion that is what we call psychoacoustics. This is the same reason people think that speaker break in makes an audible improvement (again, a highly debatable subject but one that still cannot be proven under blind conditions).
y


there are many under 10 lb class d amps around


That's a pity, though it may not affect the sound quality.

On a second side note, isn't it amazing what Intel and AMD have done with processors since the days of the 8088? That new Core 2 Duo "Conroe" is killer!

Ahhh what I get for sticking my nose where it does not belong ehh?

Did not mean to offend, but it seems something like that is better left to private messages? I would not have had to say anything if it would not have been brought up in the thread.

PULLIAMM has been nothing but cordial in all of my threads and has answered any questions I have posed for him so I felt the need to defend him when he was seemingly "attacked" by jewel5. Again, no harm intended.

Also no need to tell me to shut up thanks. =P I did find the link useful!


Thanks to everyone that has put forth opinions!

Yes, all soild state amps are the same IMO if they have low THD, accurately rated power and plenty of it, and beefy power supplies. I also never stated that the power supply will effect sound, only that it will help with the reliability. This is just my opinion and I hope that clears your confusion up.

halcro dm series amps claim very very low distortion figures. they do sound different from other solid state amps. how low is too low?

On a different note but still related, Stereo Review performed a double blind amp test. No one could tell the difference between a $300 receiver and many others including a multi-thousand dollar separate amp. Many forum members have also partaken in blind amp testing; the results were/are the same. In fact, I have partaken in one, but apparently the testing process was flawed (which was immediately pointed out by some forum members) because it was fairly easy to tell them apart. I have never re-performed the test, but I will one day.


different forms of blind tests have been around for so many years and still people are experimenting in relation to audio.

which multi thousand dollar separate amps were used by stereo review? can you point to the link that the results were/are the same?

On the other side of things, many people claim that only after an extended period of time has been spent with the amp can one truly realize the differences. Well, in my opinion that is what we call psychoacoustics. This is the same reason people think that speaker break in makes an audible improvement (again, a highly debatable subject but one that still cannot be proven under blind conditions).

who are "we"? psychoacoustics does exist. but it may not be 100% attributable factor.

speaker break in is another topic. debatable subject as all amps sound the same.

That's a pity, though it may not affect the sound quality.


class d sounds very different from class a or class a/b.


On a second side note, isn't it amazing what Intel and AMD have done with processors since the days of the 8088? That new Core 2 Duo "Conroe" is killer!

off topic

There are so many great options right now ... my listening taste if for detailed, non-fatiguing sound and a big deep stage. For that I'd buy:

Cambridge 640C V2 cd player
Cambridge 640A integrated (although there are many other great options, I'd choose this to match the looks of the cd player)
Wharfedale Diamond 9.6 Speakers
... and still have a couple hundred $$$ left over for good cables.

I really like the look of the Focals, I am not real happy that they are not bi-wireable. But listening is the only way to tell right?
Ty

It sure is. I wouldn't worry about the biwire either. Most Focal's are setup for mono wiring, including the majority of their top of the line Utopia series (all but the Grande Utopia are mono wire, and it is wired for biamplification, not biwiring).

I do apologize for getting angry yesterday, I was tired and a bit oversensitive, which is a woman's god-given right! ;) :D I sadly realize some people just love chasing their tail and will never be satisfied regardless of what equipment/speakers they have, I seriously believe if Pulliam inherited a $10k system, he would end up "upgrading" it into crap....so be it. :(

There are so many great options right now ... my listening taste if for detailed, non-fatiguing sound and a big deep stage. For that I'd buy:

Cambridge 640C V2 cd player
Cambridge 640A integrated (although there are many other great options, I'd choose this to match the looks of the cd player)
Wharfedale Diamond 9.6 Speakers
... and still have a couple hundred $$$ left over for good cables.

Go to the amp section of this forum and do a search for Cambridge, the amp has some overheating/shutting down problems and consumers not too impressed with sound quality, of course YMMV, but with that many mixed reviews, buyer beware. Also try googling it. The Nad integrateds seem to get the better reviews.

I do apologize for getting angry yesterday, I was tired and a bit oversensitive, which is a woman's god-given right! ;) :D I sadly realize some people just love chasing their tail and will never be satisfied regardless of what equipment/speakers they have, I seriously believe if Pulliam inherited a $10k system, he would end up "upgrading" it into crap....so be it. :(

The poor lad can't help himself.

Pulliam, here's a review of what you're considering

http://audioenz.co.nz/2005/cambridge_azur540.shtml

Do what you want, I just regret wasting a great vintage Carver on someone who just doesn't have a clue...you just don't get higher end audio, and I doubt you ever will. The CD player sounds nice, but I have no doubt you'll regret the amp purchase, but go ahead and enjoy you're matching silver boxes. :eek:

Just throwing ideas around, apparently you didn't notice the smiley? The Carver sounds too good for me to imagine that anything other than separates could be an improvement on it (and then only mch more expensive separates than I could afford.) I like the idea of things that match visually, but I know this is irrelevant to sound. ;) I considered a matching Carver CD player, but then I discovered that they were all just "re-badged" and not actually designed by Carver at all. I may go ahead and try one of the Cambridge CD players (based on that article, I should skip the 540 and go for the 640.)

(I forgot to add that this thread has moved too fast to keep up with. There was a whole dialog around Jewel's post before I had a chance to respond.)

Mark, you are now looking at CD players? Are you purchasing because you want to match aesthetically, or because you think it will improve upon the sound?
halcro dm series amps claim very very low distortion figures. they do sound different from other solid state amps. how low is too low?
Sure they cliam low THD, but what does it truly measure? There is no such thing as too low, but too high; now that’s what it’s all about.
different forms of blind tests have been around for so many years and still people are experimenting in relation to audio.
You are right. This is probably because they just can’t get their minds wrapped around the fact that the well made cheaper stuff sounds as good as the more expensive stuff, or at least VERY close.
which multi thousand dollar separate amps were used by stereo review? can you point to the link that the results were/are the same?
I have attached the article below. Check it out if you like (then you can answer your own questions). Edit: The file is too large. Here is the link:
http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf#search='stereo%20review%20%20blind%20amp%20tes t'
who are "we"? psychoacoustics does exist. but it may not be 100% attributable factor.
Maybe, maybe not. Have you ever put yourself to the test and undergone a blind amp test? If not, you will never know for sure.
speaker break in is another topic. debatable subject as all amps sound the same.
Sure is, but it is all related concerning psychoacoustics. I was using it as another example.
class d sounds very different from class a or class a/b.
I would like to see what your think when chosing under double blind conditions. Talk is cheap.
off topic
These threads go off topic all the time. I was trying to break the ice…guess you aren’t interested.

Mark, you are now looking at CD players? Are you purchasing because you want to match aesthetically, or because you think it will improve upon the sound?

I am thinking of trying a new CD player (from someplace with a good return policy) just to find out if it improves the sound. This is possible because my integrated amp (which I am keeping, by the way :) ) is strictly analog, so I would use the player's analog output. I am actually quite skeptical, though, because the Cambridge and my current Onkyo use the same Wolfson DAC. Going from a changer to a single-drawer could make some difference.
[For future reference, you will know I am serious about upgrading only when my post starts with "I just bought..." :D ]

I thought the whole cpu joke-thing was funny!

I am thinking of trying a new CD player (from someplace with a good return policy) just to find out if it improves the sound. This is possible because my integrated amp (which I am keeping, by the way :) ) is strictly analog, so I would use the player's analog output. I am actually quite skeptical, though, because the Cambridge and my current Onkyo use the same Wolfson DAC. Going from a changer to a single-drawer could make some difference.
[For future reference, you will know I am serious about upgrading only when my post starts with "I just bought..." :D ]

Have you considered an external DAC such as the Benchmark DAC1? So long as the Onkyo makes a decent transport, it would be one route to consider.

There are so many great options right now ... my listening taste if for detailed, non-fatiguing sound and a big deep stage. For that I'd buy:

Cambridge 640C V2 cd player
Cambridge 640A integrated (although there are many other great options, I'd choose this to match the looks of the cd player)
Wharfedale Diamond 9.6 Speakers
... and still have a couple hundred $$$ left over for good cables.
It would be completely ridiculous to spend more than $100 (total) on interconnects and speaker cables. Otherwise, that should be a nice system. :cool:

Have you considered an external DAC such as the Benchmark DAC1? So long as the Onkyo makes a decent transport, it would be one route to consider.
I have found very few places (internet or B&M) that sell external DACs at all, and the few I have seen cost $1000 or more. As for ebay, they have some, but I can't tell by looking whether they are for home stereo, professional musicians, or something else entirely (like computer games.) :confused:

I have found very few places (internet or B&M) that sell external DACs at all, and the few I have seen cost $1000 or more. As for ebay, they have some, but I can't tell by looking whether they are for home stereo, professional musicians, or something else entirely (like computer games.) :confused:

Well yeah, the ones that are worth anything aren't cheap. The Benchmark DAC1 in particular is 1k, but it is reputed to be among the best in the business. You might check out some in the pages of Stereophile, et al and see what you can dig up on e-bay though.

Well yeah, the ones that are worth anything aren't cheap. The Benchmark DAC1 in particular is 1k, but it is reputed to be among the best in the business. You might check out some in the pages of Stereophile, et al and see what you can dig up on e-bay though.
Considering that the highly regarded Cambridge 640C is only $550, and that even Rotel has a $700 CD player, $1000 for a converter is too steep. (I did find one on ebay, but they were up to full price!)
The few more affordable ones I have seen look similar to portable guitar effects or laptop computer peripherals, rather than home audio components.

I'll readily admit that they aren't cheap, and I can't just rush out to buy one; but if you're serious about upgrading your system, I would highly recommend trying to at least compare the Cambridge CD player (in which you are effectively paying for upgraded electronics, specifically in the DAC), to an external DAC.

I am thinking of trying a new CD player (from someplace with a good return policy) just to find out if it improves the sound. This is possible because my integrated amp (which I am keeping, by the way :) ) is strictly analog, so I would use the player's analog output. I am actually quite skeptical, though, because the Cambridge and my current Onkyo use the same Wolfson DAC. Going from a changer to a single-drawer could make some difference.
[For future reference, you will know I am serious about upgrading only when my post starts with "I just bought..." :D ]


soon you will be buying 200.00 dollar cables, you better go delete some of the strong opinions you were giving in the CD AVS area :p

I am thinking of trying a new CD player (from someplace with a good return policy) just to find out if it improves the sound. This is possible because my integrated amp (which I am keeping, by the way :) ) is strictly analog, so I would use the player's analog output. I am actually quite skeptical, though, because the Cambridge and my current Onkyo use the same Wolfson DAC. Going from a changer to a single-drawer could make some difference.

I've heard both players, your Onkyo and the Cambridge 640 v1 in similar systems ... you will notice a substantial improvement with the Cambridge, and the v2 is even better. Thinking they'll be close because they use the same DAC is a mistake. The quality of components in the output stage and power supply is more important that what DAC is used.

soon you will be buying 200.00 dollar cables, you better go delete some of the strong opinions you were giving in the CD AVS area :p
Did you notice the part about being quite skeptical? If I try it and actually do notice a real difference, then I will happily eat crow and recant those opinions. :cool: More likely, though, I will end up returning it because I do not hear any improvement.

Did you notice the part about being quite skeptical? If I try it and actually do notice a real difference, then I will happily eat crow and recant those opinions. :cool: More likely, though, I will end up returning it because I do not hear any improvement.

If you can't hear big improvements using the Analog outs of a Cambridge 640 vs. the Onkyo c390 then that effectively renders all your arguments concerning sound of ANYTHING moot. They're night and day different.

Well all this talk of DAC and transport is rendered pretty much moot in this thread as I do not have the bank account to go that route anyway.

Thanks!
ty

thebigtea,

I would spend more time reading about putting together a 2-channel system before spending any money. From what I've read in this thread, you have no strong preference for any part of the audio chain, which is why folks are throwing all sorts of suggestions at you.

For a 12x11' room, I would considering nothing other than monitors/bookshelf speakers on stands. If you get efficient speakers, it will not take a very powerful amp to drive them and fill your room with sound.

For a front-end, why not keep it simple? For $2k, your budget will comfortably allow for a one-box CD player (CDP). Find one with variable analog outs and remote control, and you won't need a preamp/linestage. Run the outputs directly into your two-channel amp, and you're set. Try the stock interconnect for your components and Home Depot zip cord for your speakers, and you can do it on the cheap.

Good luck!

- Steve O.

Sure they cliam low THD, but what does it truly measure? There is no such thing as too low, but too high; now that’s what it’s all about.

you brought up the THD not me. now you want to know what its all about?


You are right. This is probably because they just can’t get their minds wrapped around the fact that the well made cheaper stuff sounds as good as the more expensive stuff, or at least VERY close.
this is true. it is a matter of finding real value. what equipment you would suggest to op?


I have attached the article below. Check it out if you like (then you can answer your own questions). Edit: The file is too large. Here is the link:
http://bruce.coppola.name/audio/Amp_Sound.pdf#search='stereo%20review%20%20blind%20amp%20tes t'


that link does not work


Maybe, maybe not. Have you ever put yourself to the test and undergone a blind amp test? If not, you will never know for sure.

flawless db tests. which one? nearly all are flawed and being challenged. otherwise we already have absolute results and no further arguments.



I would like to see what your think when chosing under double blind conditions. Talk is cheap.


apparently you have no experience with class d amps



These threads go off topic all the time. I was trying to break the ice…guess you aren’t interested.

ice? what ice? give your suggestions here instead of going off topic like others. individual style and originality is important

If you're looking into British speakers, look into the Tannoy Sensys DC line rather than the Kef's. I find the Kef Q line a little on the bright side.

Be warned on the Onkyo DX-c390, some have had lens skipping issues after long use. The Toshiba SD-6980 despite being a DVD player actually has great sound while using the analogue outs, even better than the C390 in sound quality. But it lacks MP3 support, rather odd for a dvd player.

Be warned on the Onkyo DX-c390, some have had lens skipping issues after long use. The Toshiba SD-6980 despite being a DVD player actually has great sound while using the analogue outs, even better than the C390 in sound quality. But it lacks MP3 support, rather odd for a dvd player.
This brings up an interesting point. Many mass-market companies have started "ignoring" the stand-alone CD player market and focusing their R&D on DVD players. When combined with fierce competition, economies of scale, and the rapid progress of chip design, this has resulted in DVD players with impressive audio specs. Is it possible that one of today's relatively affordable DVD players could outperform a substantially more expensive CD player? For example, what does that Toshiba go for?
Would spending $150 on a DVD player actually provide more of an audible upgrade than spending $550 on the Cambridge CD player?

If you can't hear big improvements using the Analog outs of a Cambridge 640 vs. the Onkyo c390 then that effectively renders all your arguments concerning sound of ANYTHING moot. They're night and day different.
I haven't tried it yet. If I do, I will let you know. :)

scorch-

thanks for your input. A lot of the reason I do not have a really strong feeling towards any one part of an audio system is that I have heard so many that I really like. I don't know if my friends or father have about the same taste in stereo set up that I do but every nice audio system I have listened to sounds pretty darn good to me.

I will admit to enjoying the tube amps that my buddy has, but I don't know if it is much the sound of his amp or that of the Paradigms he has. I also really dig the glow and the thick aluminum face plate and workmanship of the chassis! Man they build those things nice.

I have only owned 2 sets of nice speakers, those being my B&W 600 series 1 bookshelfs and my PSB 4ts. I liked the B&Ws and LOVED the PSBs, but again my friends Paradigms sound AWEFULLY nice. I have a receiver that I really like (HK which I understand is supposed to have a warm sound to it) but that is HT only now. Looking to move up in the world a bit I guess =)

I am going this weekend on a listening tour in Madison Wisconsin and I will form some more opinions then. I am in no real hurry, but I want to look pretty hard core for something nice.

Ferres-

thanks! I looked online at the Eryis line and I like the look of the speakers and some of the reviews on the Eyris 2 sound pretty good. I will certainly listen to them if I have the chance.

Thanks!

This brings up an interesting point. Many mass-market companies have started "ignoring" the stand-alone CD player market and focusing their R&D on DVD players. When combined with fierce competition, economies of scale, and the rapid progress of chip design, this has resulted in DVD players with impressive audio specs. Is it possible that one of today's relatively affordable DVD players could outperform a substantially more expensive CD player? For example, what does that Toshiba go for?
Would spending $150 on a DVD player actually provide more of an audible upgrade than spending $550 on the Cambridge CD player?


there is a case to be made for the toshiba HD-DVD player very high quality Dacs through out, though its not 150.00 but for 399.00 you get a lot more than the Cambridge

scorch-

I don't know if my friends or father have about the same taste in stereo set up that I do but every nice audio system I have listened to sounds pretty darn good to me.



thebigtea,

Either you have only heard good setups, or you don't have picky ears. Either way, this is a good indication that you won't need to spend $$$ on your system.

- Steve O.

there is a case to be made for the toshiba HD-DVD player very high quality Dacs through out, though its not 150.00 but for 399.00 you get a lot more than the Cambridge
You are still referring to the SD-6980? I did a search and found it at several stores for under $90, with the highest price being $200.

thanks for your input. A lot of the reason I do not have a really strong feeling towards any one part of an audio system is that I have heard so many that I really like.

A related issue is deciding which component to upgrade when the urge strikes. In my case, my integrated amp and speakers are as good as I can get without a really huge jump in price. (Only >$1500 worth of separates could improve on the amp, and these are mostly for people who want more power or flexibility than I need. My current speakers as a trade-in + $1000 would get me the B&W 705's, a step up, but not necessarily worth that much $ to me.) This leaves only the CD player. I am hoping for some audible improvement from upgrading that, but don't really expect to gain much.

You are still referring to the SD-6980? I did a search and found it at several stores for under $90, with the highest price being $200.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=151
one of these 2 Pulliam, check out what they have to say in there interesting stuff there was a thread where someone broke down all of the Dacs, DSP'S and talked about the build quality, and this great buy for forum members and to think I just bought a 400.00 cd player :(


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=720329

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=151
one of these 2 Pulliam, check out what they have to say in there interesting stuff there was a thread where someone broke down all of the Dacs, DSP'S and talked about the build quality, and this great buy for forum members and to think I just bought a 400.00 cd player :(


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=720329
Does the fact that those are HD-DVD players impact the quality of the analog audio output? Would one of their standard DVD players be as good for use as a CD player (video not an issue)? If so, some of those are cheap! :p

I have nosed around a bit on other forums. There appear to be quite a few people claiming that DVD players (even mass-market ones) can, and often do sound better than stand-alone CD players. I may pick up a cheap one (like under $100) and A/B it with my Onkyo just to see how it sounds. I can always return it if I get it from BB or CC.

Makes me feel a little better about being cheap and not going with a seperate CD player then :D Mind you I'll still audition them at some point, but my next major purchase is likely to be an outlaw stereo receiver + a subwoofer yet to be determined.

I needed a cheap DVD player for the living room and decided to cascade my 5-year old player to that spot and buy another inexpensive player that could play SACDs.

I just received (this morning) my used Philips 963 SA. It's a few years-old DVD/SACD player without all the new fancy HDMI/DVI connection which I don't need. I intend to use it as DVD player (on my non-HDTV 52" RPTV) and as SACD player. It also upsamples CDs. I play CDs on a Rotel RCD-02, but I'll see if there's any difference through the Philips.

I have nosed around a bit on other forums. There appear to be quite a few people claiming that DVD players (even mass-market ones) can, and often do sound better than stand-alone CD players. I may pick up a cheap one (like under $100) and A/B it with my Onkyo just to see how it sounds. I can always return it if I get it from BB or CC.

I personally own a DX C390 myself. It got that skipping lens issue so it went to the shop for repairs. I then used the SD-6980 as an alternative. My first thoughts with the 6980 was the better bass response. But after a while I thought the music overall sounded better. Then when the C390 came back. Then the sound quality difference became more obvious. The C390 had less body and sounded thin now.

But then again there is always the possibility that the replacement lens was inferior to the original lens despite being done by an official service center. But it's still nice to have a 6cd changer and not having to get up to change discs.

It may still be a good idea to have a separate player for either movies or music. Just incase one goes to the shop, you can still have something to use. :D

you brought up the THD not me. now you want to know what its all about?
No, I said it’s all about how high it is.

this is true. it is a matter of finding real value. what equipment you would suggest to op?
I already explained what I recommend.

that link does not work
I tried it on two different computer hooked up to two different networks. It works.

flawless db tests. which one? nearly all are flawed and being challenged. otherwise we already have absolute results and no further arguments
Do you have any proof that they are flawed? I think you are just one of those skeptics. Well, sucks to be you. :p

apparently you have no experience with class d amps
Yes, that must be it. :rolleyes: I have experience with Rotel’s “new” class D amp (RB-1092). It’s nice but I doubt you or anyone else could pick it out under double blind testing conditions. Perhaps you have a “golden ear.” :)

ice? what ice? give your suggestions here instead of going off topic like others. individual style and originality is important
I was trying to be nice; personable. Considering your response, it was a bad idea. You are about as much fun as a 8088 processor would be now a days. :eek:

I personally own a DX C390 myself. It got that skipping lens issue so it went to the shop for repairs. I then used the SD-6980 as an alternative. My first thoughts with the 6980 was the better bass response. But after a while I thought the music overall sounded better. Then when the C390 came back. Then the sound quality difference became more obvious. The C390 had less body and sounded thin now.

But then again there is always the possibility that the replacement lens was inferior to the original lens despite being done by an official service center. But it's still nice to have a 6cd changer and not having to get up to change discs.

It may still be a good idea to have a separate player for either movies or music. Just incase one goes to the shop, you can still have something to use. :D
I would have to order an SD-6980, but I can get an SD-3990 locally. It seems likely to me that these would have identical audio sections (the difference being the video.) Since this would be for music only, video is irrelevant. :)
I think the lens/laser mechanism is an all-or-nothing proposition. It can either read the data or it can't (in which case it skips.) I doubt that differences in lens quality could effect the sound in subtle ways.

I'm not an audio technician, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Pulliam, doesn't the laser read the data only, it's not responsible for the actual sound output, the internal circuitry does that, right? If you don't believe there's a difference, why are you considering buying a new cd player? I think you just like to rile people up, but it's getting old, dude. :p

I'm not an audio technician, and correct me if I'm wrong, but Pulliam, doesn't the laser read the data only, it's not responsible for the actual sound output, the internal circuitry does that, right? If you don't believe there's a difference, why are you considering buying a new cd player? I think you just like to rile people up, but it's getting old, dude. :p
I definitely did not suggest that the laser/lens assembly effected the sound, in fact I said I don't think it can. If there are any differences, they result from the DACs and the analog output stage (with no differences being possible if the digital outs are used.)
The only reason I am thinking about a CD player is that my speakers and my (originally your) amp cannot be improved on unless my budget increases dramatically, and I always like to upgrade something.
I almost tried the DVD player experiment, but the salesman talked me out of it (he shared my original opinion that differences between CD/DVD players are too small to be audible.) What he said might give some improvement is going to an SACD player. His explanation (which makes at least some sense) is that the DACs in an SACD player "upconvert" the CD signal in a way that is analogous to how some DVD players upconvert video.

Ok-

Went for my little weekend auditioning in Appleton Wisconsin.

Here is what I heard and what I thought-
The two discs I mainly listened too were Better than Ezra's Before the Robots and Patty Griffin's 1000 Kisses.

All the following speakers save the B&W 705s where on some fairly basic Fiber Board stands...Sonus brand I think. No fill of any kind.

These are two of my favorite artists and I am very familiar with how they sound on my home system consisting of my HK AVR125 and Onkyo DVD/CD player (cannot remember the model and cannot be bothered to look as it is getting the boot for a bad changing motor) and PSB 4t Floorstanders.

I first listened to B&W 601 S3s on a Marantz PM7001 with a Marantz CC4001 CD Changer. Sounded pretty good to me, a little forward and bright for my tastes but the imaging was good and the music was detailed. With a woman's voice I could sense that I would get fatigued fairly quickly.

Next where B&W CM1's on the same set up as above and I was much happier with these (granted they are twice the money, but still in my budget) very laid back sound, very nice image and easy on the ears. They kept up very well in BTE's "burned" and they where just fun to listen too. With Patty's "Rain" the music was very natural and the soundstage was holographic. I was pretty impressed also by the look and fit and finish of these speakers.

Now we put Audio Physics Yara's on this same system. To me they where a little bit brighter with a tad more detail than the CMs but easier on the ears than the 601s. The CMs where still my favs.

The salesmen then wanted me to have a listen to the B&W 705s and at 1400$ these where more than I wanted to spend, but I have to say I was VERY happy I did. On the same electronics as the above they just blew me away. So natural and easy to listen to...I really liked them. The problem? the speakers and stands would eat up exactly $1700 of my 2k budget. The salesman said he could wack 20% if I bought the demos...in black. Black speakers are VERY blah to me. I said thanks, but no. Then he had me listen to the Rosewood 704s...and WOW. They simply disappeared! Of course this was on $6000 dollars of Conrad Johnson tube amps but still...simply awesome sound. $1600 for the demos.

Sigh...there goes the budget! 1600 for the speakers and 600 for the integrated and 300 for the cd changer is just too mcuh.

Also I have to say that the Marantz Integrated and CD changes great! I heard a Rotel Integrated that cost 2 times as much and liked the Marantz a WHOLE lot better. The CM1s sounds boxed in and almost bad with the Rotel and teh 705s did not have the same pep to them. For the money I was REALLY impressed.

On to the next store!

NAD
Sony ES
Paradigm Monitor and Reference Speakers

I am getting long winded so let me make this a bit short.
The NAD was very nice with the Paradigm Speakers....I am very impressed with Paradigm. The Reference 20 v3s I heard where just as good (and probably better) as the CM1s and not far behind the 705s and at just over half the cost of the 705s. They even sounded really good with a Sony ES receiver! The NAD was model c372 and while nice I think I prefer the look of the Marantz. I don't personally think I need the C372 as it is 150 per and that is overkill in my smallish room butI think I prefered the Marantz and 2/3s the cost.

All listening was done in a rooms VERY similar in size to my intended room and I did not see any treatments in either. I know I lost a little detail towards the end, but I was simply running out of time as my wife ran out of patience =(.

Best sound for the speakers to my ears is the 705s followed closely by the Para Ref. 20s.
Best bang for the buck would easily be the Para Ref. 20s.
Int. Amp that is my fav so far? Marantz PM7001. Good sound and great looks for not a ton of money. The CD player was also nice and felt like it could take a beating and keep playing.

I also intended to listen to some Monitor Audio RS1's and RS6's but sadly the line is not carried in Appleton anymore. Have to find it somewhere else I guess.

I also listened to many other brands of speakers (canton, klipsch, polk, dev tech, proac) and many other int. amps but the ones I wrote about are the ones I felt where closest to what I like and what I am willing to spend.

If I had to buy after today it would have been:

Para Ref. V20s and stands $800
Marantz Int. $600
Marantz CD player $300
===========>$1700

Next week I will be heading to Madison to listen to the Focals I am so interested in, Cambridge audio and Music hall electronics and anything else the local dealers have so stay tuned!

Thanks

Ty

See if you can find a dealer who sells PMC speakers in your area. You'll quickly find out why so much music is mastered on them once you take a listen. They are utterly spectacular. They make two small bookshelf speakers in your price range and a small floorstanding speaker that you may be able to stretch to get. Every person who has heard them has walked away shaking their head and wondering why they hadn't heard of them before.

Soundood-

I have heard good things about PMC in the past but the local dealer for them is order only =( I have a Tannoy and PSB dealer like that too....

thanks!

Ty

I definitely did not suggest that the laser/lens assembly effected the sound, in fact I said I don't think it can. If there are any differences, they result from the DACs and the analog output stage (with no differences being possible if the digital outs are used.)
The only reason I am thinking about a CD player is that my speakers and my (originally your) amp cannot be improved on unless my budget increases dramatically, and I always like to upgrade something.
I almost tried the DVD player experiment, but the salesman talked me out of it (he shared my original opinion that differences between CD/DVD players are too small to be audible.) What he said might give some improvement is going to an SACD player. His explanation (which makes at least some sense) is that the DACs in an SACD player "upconvert" the CD signal in a way that is analogous to how some DVD players upconvert video.

Btw, the SD-6980 does support SACD and has outputs for it. But I did not use them, I used the standard analogue stereo outs.

This could be why it seems to have a better DAC since it has SACD support.

Soundood-

I have heard good things about PMC in the past but the local dealer for them is order only =( I have a Tannoy and PSB dealer like that too....

thanks!

Ty

Since you have a Tannoy dealer. Try to audition the Sensys DC models. They have those 'bang for the buck' quality about them. :p

Aurum Cantus also make great sounding bookshelfs. :)

Ferres-

The local Tannoy dealer is an order only kind of thing. They can get them but he has no stock. If I want them I would have to buy them....not sure if I am willing to make that kind of commitment to unheard speakers.

thanks

Ferres-

The local Tannoy dealer is an order only kind of thing. They can get them but he has no stock. If I want them I would have to buy them....not sure if I am willing to make that kind of commitment to unheard speakers.

thanks

Might as well go ID. At least you can send them back.

It is not really as easy as that lol.

I am taking my time and attempting to listen to as many speakers as I can, but I don't really have the time to run speakers back to be shipped out all the time. Unless someone offers me a really REALLY strong recommendation for a speaker brand it has to be something I can here before I take home.

Ferres-

The local Tannoy dealer is an order only kind of thing. They can get them but he has no stock. If I want them I would have to buy them....not sure if I am willing to make that kind of commitment to unheard speakers.

thanks

Too bad. It's bad marketing on their part. I got mine on sale. Made me quit the polk lsi9's and they were prettier. :P

Anyhow here's an old review should you want to learn more about them.
http://www.hometheatermag.com/floorloudspeakers/204tannoy/

You might not like them, they're kinda ugly. :o

I think they are gorgeous

Lol! I guess it's a matter of taste. but the sound bowled me over :P

I contacted Toshiba and asked if there were differences in 2-channel analog output )with standard CDs) between their various DVD player models. They said no, there is not. With this in mind, I tried one of their entry-level players. There was almost no difference between it and my Onkyo, and what little there was favored the Onkyo.
My local high end dealer (who sold me my B&Ws) doesn't think I will get any improvement by spending less than $1000 on a CD player, and only a subtle improvement even then. I am not going to spend that much (especially since that same $1000 would get me the 705s), so a CD upgrade is out.
The dealer also said I might hear an improvement from $100 interconnects. Obviously, I am very skeptical of this, but may try it anyway since no other potential upgrades will be within my reach anytime soon.

Pulliam, see if your dealer has a SACD player you can take home to audition and compare them. I would be very interested to see if it sounds better or not with regular cds. If it does, I might pick one up. :D

Pulliam, see if your dealer has a SACD player you can take home to audition and compare them. I would be very interested to see if it sounds better or not with regular cds. If it does, I might pick one up. :D
I have considered just such an experiment. It presents a bit of a dilemma, however. I would pretty much have to stick to an SACD player quite close in price to my Onkyo. Otherwise, I wouldn't know whether to attribute any differences to the SACD chip itself, or just to being a higher-quality unit in general. :confused:
I have pretty much eliminated the idea of upgrading my CD player, though. In fact, with the possible exception of going to the 705's (and maybe trying a fancy interconnect), I may well be done with upgrading altogether for a good long time. My system is now at a level where any audible improvement is liable to be prohibitively priced. It is also so good that, if I stay away from high-end shops, I am unlikely to find it lacking in any way. :cool:

Update: After doing some reasearch on the 705's vs the 602's, including many owner reviews of each, I have concluded that the 705's may not be a worthwhile upgrade for me. In fact, given my taste in music and my limitations on volume, the 602's might actually be better overall. Small tweaks such as better stands and a good but overpriced interconnect may be my only remaining upgrades. If this really does prove to be the case, I will be just as amazed as many of you are sure to be! :D

Pulliamm-

At my little listening extravaganze this weekend 600s and 700s where night and day difference to me. Same equipment, same wires, same interconnects, the only thing different where the the stands.

601s VS 705s

To my ears the 705s where clearly superior to the 600s and for the matter the cm1s and the Audio Physic speakers I heard. The only thing in monitors that can close for me where the Para Ref. 20s....well and the 805s that the salesperson fired up for me but those don't count =)

Of course you may have a different opinion but that is how I see it. =) I am looking forward to hearing the JM Labs/Focal line up however...and the Monitor RS series.

Thanks

Ty

Ok-

Went for my little weekend auditioning in Appleton Wisconsin.

Here is what I heard and what I thought-
The two discs I mainly listened too were Better than Ezra's Before the Robots and Patty Griffin's 1000 Kisses.

All the following speakers save the B&W 705s where on some fairly basic Fiber Board stands...Sonus brand I think. No fill of any kind.

These are two of my favorite artists and I am very familiar with how they sound on my home system consisting of my HK AVR125 and Onkyo DVD/CD player (cannot remember the model and cannot be bothered to look as it is getting the boot for a bad changing motor) and PSB 4t Floorstanders.

I first listened to B&W 601 S3s on a Marantz PM7001 with a Marantz CC4001 CD Changer. Sounded pretty good to me, a little forward and bright for my tastes but the imaging was good and the music was detailed. With a woman's voice I could sense that I would get fatigued fairly quickly.

Next where B&W CM1's on the same set up as above and I was much happier with these (granted they are twice the money, but still in my budget) very laid back sound, very nice image and easy on the ears. They kept up very well in BTE's "burned" and they where just fun to listen too. With Patty's "Rain" the music was very natural and the soundstage was holographic. I was pretty impressed also by the look and fit and finish of these speakers.

Now we put Audio Physics Yara's on this same system. To me they where a little bit brighter with a tad more detail than the CMs but easier on the ears than the 601s. The CMs where still my favs.

The salesmen then wanted me to have a listen to the B&W 705s and at 1400$ these where more than I wanted to spend, but I have to say I was VERY happy I did. On the same electronics as the above they just blew me away. So natural and easy to listen to...I really liked them. The problem? the speakers and stands would eat up exactly $1700 of my 2k budget. The salesman said he could wack 20% if I bought the demos...in black. Black speakers are VERY blah to me. I said thanks, but no. Then he had me listen to the Rosewood 704s...and WOW. They simply disappeared! Of course this was on $6000 dollars of Conrad Johnson tube amps but still...simply awesome sound. $1600 for the demos.

Sigh...there goes the budget! 1600 for the speakers and 600 for the integrated and 300 for the cd changer is just too mcuh.

Also I have to say that the Marantz Integrated and CD changes great! I heard a Rotel Integrated that cost 2 times as much and liked the Marantz a WHOLE lot better. The CM1s sounds boxed in and almost bad with the Rotel and teh 705s did not have the same pep to them. For the money I was REALLY impressed.

On to the next store!

NAD
Sony ES
Paradigm Monitor and Reference Speakers

I am getting long winded so let me make this a bit short.
The NAD was very nice with the Paradigm Speakers....I am very impressed with Paradigm. The Reference 20 v3s I heard where just as good (and probably better) as the CM1s and not far behind the 705s and at just over half the cost of the 705s. They even sounded really good with a Sony ES receiver! The NAD was model c372 and while nice I think I prefer the look of the Marantz. I don't personally think I need the C372 as it is 150 per and that is overkill in my smallish room butI think I prefered the Marantz and 2/3s the cost.

All listening was done in a rooms VERY similar in size to my intended room and I did not see any treatments in either. I know I lost a little detail towards the end, but I was simply running out of time as my wife ran out of patience =(.

Best sound for the speakers to my ears is the 705s followed closely by the Para Ref. 20s.
Best bang for the buck would easily be the Para Ref. 20s.
Int. Amp that is my fav so far? Marantz PM7001. Good sound and great looks for not a ton of money. The CD player was also nice and felt like it could take a beating and keep playing.

I also intended to listen to some Monitor Audio RS1's and RS6's but sadly the line is not carried in Appleton anymore. Have to find it somewhere else I guess.

I also listened to many other brands of speakers (canton, klipsch, polk, dev tech, proac) and many other int. amps but the ones I wrote about are the ones I felt where closest to what I like and what I am willing to spend.

If I had to buy after today it would have been:

Para Ref. V20s and stands $800
Marantz Int. $600
Marantz CD player $300
===========>$1700

Next week I will be heading to Madison to listen to the Focals I am so interested in, Cambridge audio and Music hall electronics and anything else the local dealers have so stay tuned!

Thanks

Ty

Sounds like you had a good time; good for you.

I am from the Milwaukee area and noticed you were going to head to Madison, but I recommend heading to Milwaukee instead. Milwaukee has Flanners Audio and Video which carries Monitor Audio (RS8's), Canton, Martin Logan and many more brands. Milwaukee also has Ultra HiFidelis which carries Monitor Audio (RS6's), Linn, Vandersteen and some other brands. And finally, there is Audio Emporium which carries Paradigm and B&W (6 through 8 series), but carries Rotel and Bryston electronics. The drive time to Milwaukee may be a little longer, but it is worth in IMO. If you end up planning the trip, pm me and I will give you directions to each store.

Was the B&W and NAD dealer the one in Green Bay on Mason St (sound world)?

Mark (Pulliamm), if you are even considering a CD player costing $1000, I would certainly purchase the benchmark DAC instead (same price).

IMO a SACD player doesn’t sound any different than a CD player when using regular CD’s. However, if the CD has been remastered in 2-channel for SACD/DVD-A , then it will sound better IMO. However, this is due to the recording, so…

Pulliamm-

At my little listening extravaganze this weekend 600s and 700s where night and day difference to me. Same equipment, same wires, same interconnects, the only thing different where the the stands.

601s VS 705s

To my ears the 705s where clearly superior to the 600s and for the matter the cm1s and the Audio Physic speakers I heard. The only thing in monitors that can close for me where the Para Ref. 20s....well and the 805s that the salesperson fired up for me but those don't count =)

Of course you may have a different opinion but that is how I see it. =) I am looking forward to hearing the JM Labs/Focal line up however...and the Monitor RS series.

Thanks

Ty
Although I auditioned the 705's on the same day as the 602's, I cannot draw any firm conclusions from that. The 705's did sound somewhat better (not $1000 better), but they were also in a better room and driven by better electronics.
One reviewer said that he consistently preferred the 602's to the 705's in a blind test. Two others said that the bass from the 705's was not as strong as from the 602's. Several more said (and this is a major issue for me) that the 705's need quite a bit of volume to shine (my own experience is that the 602's sound great at the limited volume setting that I am able to use.)
This will remain a moot point until I find myself with a spare $1000 anyway, which could be a while! :eek:

Mark (Pulliamm), if you are even considering a CD player costing $1000, I would certainly purchase the benchmark DAC instead (same price).
That $1000 figure is just what my dealer thinks a better one would cost. It is not something I would seriously consider. ($1000 for a speaker upgrade, maybe. For a CD player, no way, especially as good as my Onkyo sounds. The only CD upgrade I have seriously thought about is the Cambridge at half that price.)

Nuance-

thanks for the idea...never really thought of going to Milwaukee. the main reason for this is I know Madison pretty well as I had some friends go to college there, and I don't know my way around Milwaukee at all =)

I did have a super time this weekend, but I was in Appleton at the Sound World there and also American and Suesse Electronics. The guys at Sound World where super cool and just a lot of fun to be around and the fella at Suesse was a little more business minded but still very helpful.

I used to live right across the street (military ave) from the Green Bay Sound World though so I know which one you are talking about!

If the stores you are talking about are fairly easy to get to I will totally come to Milwaukee!
Thanks

Ty

Although I auditioned the 705's on the same day as the 602's, I cannot draw any firm conclusions from that. The 705's did sound somewhat better (not $1000 better), but they were also in a better room and driven by better electronics.
One reviewer said that he consistently preferred the 602's to the 705's in a blind test. Two others said that the bass from the 705's was not as strong as from the 602's. Several more said (and this is a major issue for me) that the 705's need quite a bit of volume to shine (my own experience is that the 602's sound great at the limited volume setting that I am able to use.)
This will remain a moot point until I find myself with a spare $1000 anyway, which could be a while! :eek:


If you could point me to these reviews I would love to read them? I will agree that the bass was not quite as "thick?" on the 705s, but everything was just...better for my ears. Could be the music we listen too also...

Are they $1000 better? If I had to buy now I would have gotten the Para Ref. 20s for 8 bills with stands =)

thanks for all your input on this thread though I appreciate it!

Ty

Nuance-

thanks for the idea...never really thought of going to Milwaukee. the main reason for this is I know Madison pretty well as I had some friends go to college there, and I don't know my way around Milwaukee at all =)

I did have a super time this weekend, but I was in Appleton at the Sound World there and also American and Suesse Electronics. The guys at Sound World where super cool and just a lot of fun to be around and the fella at Suesse was a little more business minded but still very helpful.

I used to live right across the street (military ave) from the Green Bay Sound World though so I know which one you are talking about!

If the stores you are talking about are fairly easy to get to I will totally come to Milwaukee!
Thanks

Ty

Ha, I didn't know there is a Sound World in Appleton. Is it somewhere on College?

Two out of the three stores I mentioned are really easy to get to from highway 41/45. In fact, two of them are either right on or can be seen from the streets you will exit at. Ultra Hifidelis is a little trickier to get to as it is in downtown Milwaukee, but it's worth the effort. Let me know if you decide to head this way; I will be more than happy to help if you would like.

Madison is a great city. I have many friends who attended school there.

Nuance-

The really sad part is that there used to be an awesome hi end audio store right here in my home town (Wisconsin Rapids) but it sadly went out of business a couple years ago.

Both SW and Suesse are on Wisconsin Ave. Just take a right when you get off of 41 and one is on your right side and the other is on your left...it is a little slice of hifi heaven =P

If you link me to the websites of the dealers I can mapquest them and that would be awesome. Madison does indeed rock, and lets hope the Badger football team looks better than the Packers do ehh?

Thanks!

Ty

If you could point me to these reviews I would love to read them?

Most were on AudioReview.com. The rest were on ecoustics.

Nuance-

The really sad part is that there used to be an awesome hi end audio store right here in my home town (Wisconsin Rapids) but it sadly went out of business a couple years ago.

Both SW and Suesse are on Wisconsin Ave. Just take a right when you get off of 41 and one is on your right side and the other is on your left...it is a little slice of hifi heaven =P

If you link me to the websites of the dealers I can mapquest them and that would be awesome. Madison does indeed rock, and lets hope the Badger football team looks better than the Packers do ehh?

Thanks!

Ty
That stinks about the store in WI Rapids going out of business.

I'll have to check out the stores in Appleton next time I am up there.

Sure, I can link the sites. Here you go buddy:
Flanners.com
Audioemporium.com
Ultrafi.com

It looks like UltraFidelis just started carrying Vienna Acoustics (and I forgot to mention that they also carry ProAc. They are the best dealer around in my opinion). Since they carry a new line, I guess I will have to make another trip there. :D

The Badgers look pretty good all things considered. The Packers on the other hand...don't get me started. :mad:

Nuance-

Thank you and damn you all at the same time! It looks like I will have to make a trip down to Milwaukee....to bad the Brewers are done or I could have cloaked the trip as a Brewer game run lol.

All three of those places look like I could spend a stupid amount of money there.

2 more years and the Packers will be going back to the playoffs...I hope.

Thanks
Ty

I contacted Toshiba and asked if there were differences in 2-channel analog output )with standard CDs) between their various DVD player models. They said no, there is not. With this in mind, I tried one of their entry-level players. There was almost no difference between it and my Onkyo, and what little there was favored the Onkyo.
My local high end dealer (who sold me my B&Ws) doesn't think I will get any improvement by spending less than $1000 on a CD player, and only a subtle improvement even then. I am not going to spend that much (especially since that same $1000 would get me the 705s), so a CD upgrade is out.
The dealer also said I might hear an improvement from $100 interconnects. Obviously, I am very skeptical of this, but may try it anyway since no other potential upgrades will be within my reach anytime soon.

I still feel the SD-6980 is an odd player compared to the other toshiba standard dvd players. It is an SACD player, and you can see the specs that it is the only player that does not support MP3's and Wrm files.

Have you checked the Cayin models? They have fairly reasonable price for tubed cd players. Well... the cdt-15a at least. :)

Could be the music we listen too also...

I think this is an important consideration. As much as I like the greater "refinement" of the 705's, this is a lower priority for me than the strong bass and dynamic "punch" which the 602's deliver. On paper, 7" doesn't seem much bigger than 6.5", but in practice it sounds like a big difference (over 15% more surface area.) The cabinet volume is also larger.
The more I think about it, the more I realize that all of the unique technologies that give the higher-end B&W's their signature sound (Nautilus-derived tube-loaded tweeters, Kevlar mid/woofers, "tuned" crossovers, flowports) are all present in the 602's at a much more affordable price.
I agree with the reviewer who said, referring to the 602's, "These are too good for the price. B&W risks hurting sales of their more expensive models by selling these." :)

Tea -

While you're in Milwaukee, you'd better check out the Revel Concerta F12s. They're the same price as the 705s you liked. Better with vocals, particularly female, and produce more bass. Very nice for the cash. Good luck in your search.

The only Rotel integrated amp is 60 watts/ch, and sells for $700. The 60 watt Cambridge model is $400. Are these really comparable in performance? If so, the Cambridge would clearly be the better buy (especially since this same price relationship applies to the matching CD players also.) :cool:

The rotel is better. It looks better, and it costs more duh! ;)


Seriously though, the build quality of the rotel is better. I owned the cambridge and it had problems when I tried to plug in headphones (hard circuit break, required power cycle). I am not going to get into any "sounded better" arguement. It did sound better to me, but I was in the dealer's room, and had already had problems with the CA. Thus, my mind was already bias towards the rotel which didnt have any problems.

Right now, i have the separate 1070 pre and amp. Also the 1072 cd player. Couldnt be happier. The 1072 cd player does sound better than the Cambridge Audio cd player. Maybe that is because i got a open box for a heafty discount (bringing the two within 120$) through my dealer though. Brain is so tricky!! :D

hey thebigtea:

not to confuse your situation, but i've been looking for small floorstanders in the exact same price range for 2-channel as well, and i just now found a pair that i truly fell in love with:

Rega R3 or R5

the R3 are a shade under $900, and the perfect size for a small room such as yours. i like the R5 better, as they're a bit better extended on the low end, but they're more expensive (duh).

i listened to them on the same day i auditioned B&W 600 and 700 series, Audio Physic Yara, Monitor Audio GR20, KEF iQ5, Revel F12, Snell and a couple of others not worth mentioning.

the only pair that even came close to the performance of the Rega, IMHO, were the Revels. the Revels and the Regas were the only ones that had no bloat in the mid-bass (except the Yara, which were just thin and shrill to my ears). that bloated mid-bass that so many speakers are voiced to have these days will really be exagerrated in your small room, i think.

the Regas, to me, sounded tight, clear, detailed, fast and incredibly musical... more than any other speaker they just made me want to get up and dance. the Revels may have been slightly more dynamic because of their size, but the instrument separation and imaging was better with the Regas.

i don't think the Regas will suit everyone's taste, mostly because boosted bass is the flavor of the day. but if there are any shops near you that carry them, i recommend strongly that you give them a listen.

i'm 100% sold on them... just have to decide on color (and whether i'll splurge for the R5).

Tea -

While you're in Milwaukee, you'd better check out the Revel Concerta F12s. They're the same price as the 705s you liked. Better with vocals, particularly female, and produce more bass. Very nice for the cash. Good luck in your search.

What dealer in the Milwaukee area carries Revel? I had to drive to IL to find a Revel dealer.

Tea -

While you're in Milwaukee, you'd better check out the Revel Concerta F12s. They're the same price as the 705s you liked. Better with vocals, particularly female, and produce more bass. Very nice for the cash. Good luck in your search.

i agree with you... i think the Revels do everything better than the B&W. it might just be my taste, but i'm extremely underwhelmed by B&W speakers in general. the 800 series i've heard are quite nice, but i still think they can be beat at the price.

hey thebigtea:

not to confuse your situation, but i've been looking for small floorstanders in the exact same price range for 2-channel as well, and i just now found a pair that i truly fell in love with:

Rega R3 or R5

Sorry...off topic, but is that the same Rega that makes CD players? If so, didn't even know they made loudspeakers...very nice CD players though...

Scott

it might just be my taste
You can leave out the word "might". :rolleyes:

Sorry...off topic, but is that the same Rega that makes CD players? If so, didn't even know they made loudspeakers...very nice CD players though...

Scott

yes... same company. the setup i heard was all Rega, top to bottom.


You can leave out the word "might". :rolleyes:

yes, you're exactly right. it IS my own taste that i do not like the sound of B&W speakers... for the money. sorry for the ambiguity.

Shipper-

I would love to check out the Revel's, just tell me where to go and I am there!

VicAjax-

Thanks! I did not really think about Rega when looking into speakers. I just checked out the website and they sure look awefully nice. I will find some reviews and then see if I can find some to listen too.

I just heard some really nice speakers last night, the Energy RC-30s. Totally built like tanks, look good and sound oh so nice. They are now on my list lol.

Topping the list off right now for speakers are:

Monitors: Para Ref.20 v3
Floorstanders: Energy RC-30s (would love the 704s though....too much cash)

thanks for everyone's input!

Ty

Shipper-

I would love to check out the Revel's, just tell me where to go and I am there!

VicAjax-

Thanks! I did not really think about Rega when looking into speakers. I just checked out the website and they sure look awefully nice. I will find some reviews and then see if I can find some to listen too.

I just heard some really nice speakers last night, the Energy RC-30s. Totally built like tanks, look good and sound oh so nice. They are now on my list lol.

Topping the list off right now for speakers are:

Monitors: Para Ref.20 v3
Floorstanders: Energy RC-30s (would love the 704s though....too much cash)

thanks for everyone's input!

Ty

no problem!

i also think the Studio 20 and the RC30 are worth consideration... both excellent value for the money.

let me qualify that... i haven't heard the RC30, so i'm only going by the other Energy speakers i've listened to. i would have included the RC30 on my list, but there are no dealers in NYC.

I have a Rotel RX-1052 and a pair of Onix Ref 1's. After demoing B&W and Paradigm I went with the Onix for the price/performance. They're also finished nicer than both. The Rotel rated at 100watts at 8 Ohms is powerful enough to drive my 4 Ohm Ref 1's to destruction without flinching. I had very specific requirements for the receiver (2ch + video) and it limited my choices quite a bit. The Rotel just fit and the Rotel Onix combo is a dream come true. I can't say I'm as experienced in this field as many who post here, but I haven't heard a stereo this good. Ever. I'm RMAing my blown Ref 1 and this down time is killing me.

If you're going audio only you might want to consider the Ref 1/SP3 combo at $1200. It's an incredible deal and the SP-3 has gotten glowing reviews. 1 (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_3/onix-xcd-88-cd-player-sp3-amplifier-reference-1-speakers-9-2005.html) 2 (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/onix/onix.html).

yes, you're exactly right. it IS my own taste that i do not like the sound of B&W speakers... for the money. sorry for the ambiguity.
Thank you. Some of us are ecstatically happy with our B&Ws. If I had seriously imagined I could find something I liked better for $600, I would have.
Of course, the more expensive ones have more competition. I consider the 602's a steal because they use the same technologies as the ones costing 100 times as much. (And because they sound insanely great, of course. :D )

If you're going audio only you might want to consider the Ref 1/SP3 combo at $1200. It's an incredible deal and the SP-3 has gotten glowing reviews. 1 (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_12_3/onix-xcd-88-cd-player-sp3-amplifier-reference-1-speakers-9-2005.html) 2 (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/onix/onix.html).


This offer has gotten my attention as I like the sound of tubes and...well that integrated is just sexy. :)

Also I have yet to here anything bad about Onix in general, but I wish I could HERE it first.

Thanks!

Ty

This offer has gotten my attention as I like the sound of tubes and...well that integrated is just sexy. :)

Also I have yet to here anything bad about Onix in general, but I wish I could HERE it first.

Thanks!

Ty
To the extent that specs are meaningful (and to the extent that they can be trusted), the Onix stuff seems very impressive. If their more affordable CD player were not sold out, I would try one myself. :) (In the unlikely event that I ever find myself in the market for an integrated amp again, those also look good.)

PULLIAMM-

I think I have read just about every review of integrated amps, speakers and cd players in my price range on the internet (lol!) that are written in english and I have heard nothing but praise for **********. I am seriously thinking about getting some of the new floorstanding x-series speakers just for the heck of it lol.

Also i wish I could hear the Aperion line-up. Another company that gets good things said about it all the time. So much to listen too and so little time to do it =)

Thanks!

i agree with you... i think the Revels do everything better than the B&W. it might just be my taste, but i'm extremely underwhelmed by B&W speakers in general. the 800 series i've heard are quite nice, but i still think they can be beat at the price.

You're quite right ... it's not just your taste either. One has to shell out mega-bucks for at least B&W 802's to get performance on par with their price. The 600 and 700 line is only popular because of it's availibility ... every local hi-fi shop carries B&W, and pushes them like crazy. In a recent audition I coudn't believe how bad the 604 S3's sounded, but they were sure pushing them on me, and couldn't believe it when I told them what I thought.

PULLIAMM-

I think I have read just about every review of integrated amps, speakers and cd players in my price range on the internet (lol!) that are written in english and I have heard nothing but praise for **********. I am seriously thinking about getting some of the new floorstanding x-series speakers just for the heck of it lol.

Also i wish I could hear the Aperion line-up. Another company that gets good things said about it all the time. So much to listen too and so little time to do it =)

Thanks!

The X floorstanders are a good budget choice. Put Swan on your list too if you're thinking of auditioning internet retailers. I've been a DIY'er for years and have always loved Hi-Vi drivers - which is what Swans are made with. I also love the Vifa ring radiator tweeter used in the higher end RS series - it's no Seas Excel Millenium, but it is a sweet tweeter.

http://www.**********/products_product.php?section=processors&product=33.1

I've never heard this system, but I've heard the Ref-1's and they are very impressive. The amp, by reputation, should be exceptional for the price. They have a 30 day return policy if you don't like it, or you don't think it's worth the money. Even with shipping, you'll have plenty left over for a CD player and some room treatments, which you'll definitely want in that small, squarish room.

I would start with these:
http://www.gikacoustics.com/order_new.html in the corners, and some of these
http://www.gikacoustics.com/product_info.html#2 at the reflection points.

Just a thought.

Craig

Turbo-

I am thinking about getting the X-sls model just to pass the time while I look at other units. For the money I do not see how you can beat them, but I want something a little more refined eventually...and who knows, maybe they will be all I need.

Any Swans model you would recommend?

craig john-

Small square room, hardwood floors (well laminate) and some room treatments are certainly needed. Thanks for the link as I had no idea where to look.

I have one noobish question though...what is a reflection point? =)

thanks

Ty

If you have a couple of hours to learn about treatments check this (http://www.6moons.com/ramef/1.html) out. To continue reading the features keep counting up in the URL from 1.html, 2.html, up to 9.html (I think). I learned quite a bit about room treatments and the intended goal of companies like Rives. I'm trying to find a dealer for RPG diffusors in my area to give them a try. I have a ringy room.

If you have a couple of hours to learn about treatments check this (http://www.6moons.com/ramef/1.html) out. To continue reading the features keep counting up in the URL from 1.html, 2.html, up to 9.html (I think). I learned quite a bit about room treatments and the intended goal of companies like Rives. I'm trying to find a dealer for RPG diffusors in my area to give them a try. I have a ringy room.

thanks for that link!

There is a lot of good info on the GIK website I linked to. Also, Ethan Winer's website has some very good info: www.realtraps.com.

A reflection point is a point on a wall, ceiling or floor that reflects sound back to the listener. Sounds that reach the listener very shortly after the direct sound, are "blended" in the ear/brain listening mechanism and they confuse the ear/brain as to the directionality of the sound. This causes "smeared" imaging and an unfocused soundstage. Treating the early reflection points absorbs these early reflections and lets the listener hear the direct sound without smearing.

To find the earliest reflection points, have a helper move a mirror along the side walls. Then, you sit in the listening position. Any place you can see a speaker in the mirror is a "first reflection" point. Repeat the process for the floor and ceiling. Ideally, you want to treat these points with absorption.

BTW, toe-in of your speakers toward the listening position will reduce the intensity of the early reflections and is highly recommended.

Craig

Turbo-

I am thinking about getting the X-sls model just to pass the time while I look at other units. For the money I do not see how you can beat them, but I want something a little more refined eventually...and who knows, maybe they will be all I need.

Any Swans model you would recommend?

craig john-

Small square room, hardwood floors (well laminate) and some room treatments are certainly needed. Thanks for the link as I had no idea where to look.

I have one noobish question though...what is a reflection point? =)

thanks

Ty


I just bought the Swan 6.1's and love them. They are not broken in yet, but so far the sound is great. If you are looking at bookshelf, the 2.1 or 2.2 are something to look at, if you want to go floorstanding, Swan 6.1 or 6.2's are good models to look at from Swan.

- Garrett

One has to shell out mega-bucks for at least B&W 802's to get performance on par with their price.
I disagree 100%. In fact, I think you have it exactly backwards.
Because the 800 series is vastly more expensive than the 600 series, and because their performance is not correspondingly greater, they have the worst price/performance ratio in the B&W line. Because the 600's offer well over 95% of the performance of the 800's at a fraction of the cost, they have an excellent price/performance ratio.
For bargain shoppers, cheaper speakers such as Primus and XL-S offer the best price/performance of all, but in absolute terms (not considering price), their quality is not even close to that of the 600's.

Nuance -

Don't know much about the Milwaukee area, but from the Revel web site: two Sound Design locations in Mequon just north of the city would be good and also Da Vinci Media on 58th street is an option.
The things I like about the Concerta F12s are they're pretty much full range with a fairly smooth top, super mid-range, can be driven without a lot of power and are flexible in placement. I think for a budget MUSIC system in a small room, they are almost impossible to beat at $1500.

I disagree 100%. In fact, I think you have it exactly backwards.
Because the 800 series is vastly more expensive than the 600 series, and because their performance is not correspondingly greater, they have the worst price/performance ratio in the B&W line. Because the 600's offer well over 95% of the performance of the 800's at a fraction of the cost, they have an excellent price/performance ratio.
For bargain shoppers, cheaper speakers such as Primus and XL-S offer the best price/performance of all, but in absolute terms (not considering price), their quality is not even close to that of the 600's.

After spending many hours listening and owning the 602 and 805, I could also say that not considering price, (in absolute terms) the 602 quality is not even close to the quality of the 805. I agree with your price/performance arguement however.

The doubling price from primus to 602 yields a certain quality increase. The quadrupling price from 602 to 805 yields in my opinion, the next segment of quality increase. However, I would also say that just over doubling price from 602 to 705 yields just under the next segment of quality increase (if that makes sense).

IE, if the 805 costed the same as the 705, the amount of quality increase between it and the 602 (if it is possible to quantify it) would mimick that of the quality increase between the primus and 602.

The extra cost comes in the cabinetry. Is it worth it? Shrugs, thats just as tough of a call as "is the sound quality increase worth it". Some people value cosmetics very highly.

Because the 600's offer well over 95% of the performance of the 800's at a fraction of the cost,.

95%? Are you sure?

I have 602's and I enjoy them very much, but I think that claim is a bit unrealistic. I've heard the N805 & N802 and they were both FAR superior to my 602's. I'm sure the new series 800's are even better.

It is funny how different people hear different things when it comes to this hobby!
I think the 700 series offers the best bang for the buck, but I just don't have the bucks for all that bang right now =).

The 800 series is really nice, but at a cost. Also I don't think the money is worth the upgrade over the 700s. I think it has a lot to do with budget as well...the 800s are so far out of my price range that I shut my ears down a bit I think =P

I consider the upgrade over the 600s to be worth it, but not the upgrade from the 700s to the 800s. Does that make me silly? I don't think so!

craig john-

thanks so much! I am happy someone brought this up as I can do this beyond my $2000 budget in the futures, also my wife thinks those would look "cool" for some odd reason...no accounting for taste ehh? lol

garretwp-

thanks. the 6.1s might be a tad bigger than what I am looking for (big stand mounts, small floormounts) but I see Swans has a HUGE lineup....any of them better or worse than the others? They have some really interesting ones I would be curious to hear.

thanks!

Ty

The 800 series is really nice, but at a cost. Also I don't think the money is worth the upgrade over the 700s. I think it has a lot to do with budget as well...the 800s are so far out of my price range that I shut my ears down a bit I think =P

... my $2000 budget


The 800 series is nice... $2000 buget... Go used?

e.g. http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1164916612

That's what I did anyway (buying Klipsch and not B&W, but same idea).

95%? Are you sure?

I have 602's and I enjoy them very much, but I think that claim is a bit unrealistic. I've heard the N805 & N802 and they were both FAR superior to my 602's. I'm sure the new series 800's are even better.
I look at it this way: All of the unique technologies that make B&W speakers superior (tube-loaded Nautilus tweeters, Kevlar cones, "tuned" crossovers, flowports, resonance-resistant cabinets) are present in the 600 series. What the higher lines offer are subtle improvements (eg cabinet geometry) designed to squeeze out that last 5%.
That said, if I had the extra $1000 to spare, I would still consider the 705's (though they would actually be a step down from the 602's in terms of bass extention, more comparable to the 601's, in fact.)
Of one thing I am certain. I have never heard a $600 pair of speakers from any other manufacturer that sound as good as the 602's. Most are not even close.

I look at it this way: All of the unique technologies that make B&W speakers superior (tube-loaded Nautilus tweeters, Kevlar cones, "tuned" crossovers, flowports, resonance-resistant cabinets) are present in the 600 series. What the higher lines offer are subtle improvements (eg cabinet geometry) designed to squeeze out that last 5%.
That said, if I had the extra $1000 to spare, I would still consider the 705's (though they would actually be a step down from the 602's in terms of bass extention, more comparable to the 601's, in fact.)
Of one thing I am certain. I have never heard a $600 pair of speakers from any other manufacturer that sound as good as the 602's. Most are not even close.

My PSB 4t's where $600 when I bought them and I much prefer them to the 600 range...but again that is just me and I am pretty pro-PSB. ;)

I am not however anti-B&W like some of the people I have read on here. I think they make excellent stuff, built well sounds good, but the really have there own sound. If you like it awesome, if not awesome! :)

I look on Audiogon every single day, and I have been tempted to pull the trigger on some 805s that where on there for 950$ in cherry...but I did not lol. This has been a pretty all-consumming thing for the last 2 weeks of so, but that is half the fun.

thanks

ty

805's for $950? My god, man, that is (was) a steal!

What the higher lines offer are subtle improvements (eg cabinet geometry) designed to squeeze out that last 5%.

So the legendary 800s, 801s, 802s, etc. only squeeze out that last 5%?LOL Yoohoo, Mark, come back to the real world. ;) :p

Of one thing I am certain. I have never heard a $600 pair of speakers from any other manufacturer that sound as good as the 602's. Most are not even close.

You can usu. pick up a brand new pair of Aurum Cantus Leisure 2s from ebay for under $1k. The G2 ribbon tweeter is amazing, and the bass, you'd swear it was a large floorstander. I have a pair of the William Schaeffer model bookshelves and floorstanders, and except for the Helicons, they trounce over everything else I've yet owned. When you're really serious about upgrading your speakers, you should pick up a pair...you could easily resell them if you're deaf and don't like them. ;) :D I guarantee they would blow quite a few B&W models out of the water, and not just the bookshelf models, either. :)

Turbo-

I am thinking about getting the X-sls model just to pass the time while I look at other units. For the money I do not see how you can beat them, but I want something a little more refined eventually...and who knows, maybe they will be all I need.

Any Swans model you would recommend?

craig john-

Small square room, hardwood floors (well laminate) and some room treatments are certainly needed. Thanks for the link as I had no idea where to look.

I have one noobish question though...what is a reflection point? =)

thanks

Ty

With the Swans it's pretty simple, if you're using a sub get the 4.2's ... if not or if you insist on full bass out of your floorstanders, get the 6.2's (or the 6.1's from newegg.com). Read through the forum they have at http://www.theaudioinsider.com/ John is a nice guy, and also is introducing some very impressive looking new lines.

Room treatments get totally blown out of proportion on this board for some reason. Everybody mentions it, but few have actually done it themselves. Fact is to treat high-frequencies you have to treat a large percentage of your walls - putting up just one panel at the first reflection points does nothing. I wouldn't worry about it until you have a dedicated theater/listening room, and when you do just remember 'Owens Corning 703' and 'rock wool' and make your own for a ton less than pre-made panels ;)

I disagree 100%. In fact, I think you have it exactly backwards.
Because the 800 series is vastly more expensive than the 600 series, and because their performance is not correspondingly greater, they have the worst price/performance ratio in the B&W line. Because the 600's offer well over 95% of the performance of the 800's at a fraction of the cost, they have an excellent price/performance ratio.
For bargain shoppers, cheaper speakers such as Primus and XL-S offer the best price/performance of all, but in absolute terms (not considering price), their quality is not even close to that of the 600's.

You're dreaming as usual ... vehemently defend anything you own, right?

I'd be willing to bet a vast majority of people would prefer the XL-S over any B&W 600 series speakers in all areas except absolute bass extension. The xl-s just doesn't have the nasty midrange colorations and grating sibilance on vocals that the 600 series does. I have modded a pair of 600's in the past, I think they were DM603's - big improvements can be made with crossover upgrades, because they really skimped on components used. And some of the midrange resonance was fixed by adding extra cabinet bracing. But the fact is the build quality wasn't anywhere indicative of a $1000+ pair of speakers.

To get a B&W speaker that puts it all together and actually performs, you have to start at a 802 ... nothing under that is without significant weaknesses.

I am not however anti-B&W like some of the people I have read on here. I think they make excellent stuff, built well sounds good, but the really have there own sound. If you like it awesome, if not awesome! :)

i wouldn't say i'm anti-B&W, per se... but from a value perspective, i think one can do better in nearly every price range.

with B&W, the customer pays a premium for the badge, which is perfectly fine as B&W speakers retain their value precisely because of the brand.

however, name recognition aside, i simply believe better sound quality can be had for the same money... until you get to the 8XXD series and the Nautilus itself, at which price point it's mostly a matter of taste.

I look at it this way: All of the unique technologies that make B&W speakers superior (tube-loaded Nautilus tweeters, Kevlar cones, "tuned" crossovers, flowports, resonance-resistant cabinets) are present in the 600 series. What the higher lines offer are subtle improvements (eg cabinet geometry) designed to squeeze out that last 5%.
That said, if I had the extra $1000 to spare, I would still consider the 705's (though they would actually be a step down from the 602's in terms of bass extention, more comparable to the 601's, in fact.)
Of one thing I am certain. I have never heard a $600 pair of speakers from any other manufacturer that sound as good as the 602's. Most are not even close.

Haha, unique technologies ... that's a good one. You sound like a marketing brochure. Not only are none of those things unique, your 602's don't even have most of them. A chambered tweeter doesn't mean tube-loaded, your crossover is only tuned in the marketing literature, and the cabinet is responsible for severe resonance in the 800-1200hz area.

If you'd spend 1/2 as much time learning and listening to other stuff as you do posting, you might know what you're talking about.

So the legendary 800s, 801s, 802s, etc. only squeeze out that last 5%?LOL Yoohoo, Mark, come back to the real world. ;) :p

You can usu. pick up a brand new pair of Aurum Cantus Leisure 2s from ebay for under $1k. The G2 ribbon tweeter is amazing, and the bass, you'd swear it was a large floorstander.
A 5% improvement is a lot when the starting point is already extremely high, as it is in that example. (In the strange world of high end, it is not at all unusual to see someone pay 10 times the price for an improvement that is less than 1%.)
Not only have I never heard Aurum speakers, I have never heard of them (even in passing.) Buying them would be the only way to hear them, as I doubt even Dallas (200 miles away) would have anything that obscure. (Raleigh NC had dozens of high end shops, but not those.)
I am happy enough with the 602's that I am not inclined to upgrade unless it is to other B&Ws (remember, I get 100% trade-in value), and I really find it hard to justify the cost of doing that. If I upgrade anything this year, it will most likely be my CD player (and again, that cost is hard to justify as my Onkyo sounds great to me.) :cool:

Not only have I never heard Aurum speakers, I have never heard of them (even in passing.) Buying them would be the only way to hear them, as I doubt even Dallas (200 miles away) would have anything that obscure. (Raleigh NC had dozens of high end shops, but not those.)

Aurum Cantus is a British company that relocated to China... they make some nice-sounding and well-made speakers at a good price... but i wouldn't buy them off Audiogon unless you already knew their sound.

I am happy enough with the 602's that I am not inclined to upgrade unless it is to other B&Ws (remember, I get 100% trade-in value), and I really find it hard to justify the cost of doing that. If I upgrade anything this year, it will most likely be my CD player (and again, that cost is hard to justify as my Onkyo sounds great to me.) :cool:

that 100% trade-in offer is a nice incentive, and certainly keeps customers brand-loyal.

but i have to respectfully agree with Turbo about the resonance. when i listened to the 603S four days ago, the two things that stuck out were the audible cabinet resonance and the woolly bass. your 602 might well not suffer either problem, being a standmount.

805's for $950? My god, man, that is (was) a steal!

You can find ridiculous deals on audiogon from time to time ... a couple weeks back there was a pair of 802 S3's for $1250 shipped. Whoever bought those is quite happy I'm sure.

Aurum Cantus is a British company that relocated to China... they make some nice-sounding and well-made speakers at a good price... but i wouldn't buy them off Audiogon unless you already knew their sound.

Why not? People buy ID all the time w/o hearing them. It's easy enough to resell on ebay or audiogon if you don't like them. KAVD sells them and offers a return policy, I'm sure, but they're a bit more expensive. ACs are unfortunately not well known here, but they definitely should be, but that's why you get such good pricing. :) Sometimes you find it's well worth taking a little risk now and then, even in audio, "no pain, no gain". :D

Aurum Cantus looks and sounds pretty good. Lots of body on the low end for bookshelfs. The Leisure 3 has better reviews with only a small price difference. Note that these models are not Bi-wired, just basic +/- connection. Below $1k

A lot of plus on looks. Should have a high WAF rating. :)

If I didn't already have the Sensys DC's I would definitely go for them. Nice piano finish. ;)

I'd be willing to bet a vast majority of people would prefer the XL-S over any B&W 600 series speakers in all areas except absolute bass extension. The xl-s just doesn't have the nasty midrange colorations and grating sibilance on vocals that the 600 series does.
Wow, what an extraordinary imagination you have. Too bad you have wasted that talent dreaming up such a steaming load of ********. The very few, very trivial weaknesses of the 602's certainly do not include vocals. I close my eyes and Norah Jones (for example) is right there in the room with me.

Why not? People buy ID all the time w/o hearing them. It's easy enough to resell on ebay or audiogon if you don't like them. KAVD sells them and offers a return policy, I'm sure, but they're a bit more expensive. ACs are unfortunately not well known here, but they definitely should be, but that's why you get such good pricing. :) Sometimes you find it's well worth taking a little risk now and then, even in audio, "no pain, no gain". :D

i guess i'm not much of a risk-taker. :p

the AC are good speakers, but i think the ribbon tweeters are a matter of taste. they are silky-smooth, no doubt, but sometimes lack the "hit" before the "sizzle," if that makes sense. while the cymbals sound brilliant and airy, that impact of the stick hitting the brass can be a bit recessed. at least, that's how i heard it.

Note that these models are not Bi-wired, just basic +/- connection. Below $1k

Are you suggesting that you actually care whether or not a speaker can be biwired? I would be hard put to think of anything about a speaker less important than that! :eek:

i guess i'm not much of a risk-taker. :p

the AC are good speakers, but i think the ribbon tweeters are a matter of taste. they are silky-smooth, no doubt, but sometimes lack the "hit" before the "sizzle," if that makes sense. while the cymbals sound brilliant and airy, that impact of the stick hitting the brass can be a bit recessed. at least, that's how i heard it.

My only real issue with the AC is that they may not be able to separate the details well enough when it comes to more complex instrumentals. And your definitely right about the 'smoothness'.

I layed back listener would probably love them. :p

Are you suggesting that you actually care whether or not a speaker can be biwired? I would be hard put to think of anything about a speaker less important than that! :eek:

No, it's just that my cable is bi-wired. It's more related to how my system is configured :p

Haha, unique technologies ... that's a good one. You sound like a marketing brochure. Not only are none of those things unique, your 602's don't even have most of them. A chambered tweeter doesn't mean tube-loaded, your crossover is only tuned in the marketing literature, and the cabinet is responsible for severe resonance in the 800-1200hz area.

If you'd spend 1/2 as much time learning and listening to other stuff as you do posting, you might know what you're talking about.

I would have written the above as:

I think you are mistaken about the use of 800 series technology in the 600 series. While some of the marketing names are similar, a chambered tweeter doesn't mean tube-loaded for example. The extra care in the cabinetry of the 800 series results in much reduced resonance in the 800-1200 Hz range, so it's not all for show.

Saying that you think someone is wrong can be done without being insulting. Say it like you would face-to-face, or in a busy meeting with lots of other people.

:(

Wow, what an extraordinary imagination you have. Too bad you have wasted that talent dreaming up such a steaming load of ********. The very few, very trivial weaknesses of the 602's certainly do not include vocals. I close my eyes and Norah Jones (for example) is right there in the room with me.

Of course you say that, because you have no point of reference. You don't have the experience with a variety of products, nor the knowledge about what really differentiates them ... but that doesn't stop you from acting like you do. You're one of those stereotypical posters whose sole purpose is to convince people into buying your way of thinking.

Out of the box your 602's have major weaknesses. But based on my experience with other 600 series B&W's, I'd wager that big improvements could be made with simple crossover optimization and cabinet strengthening. Specifically, the series caps are cheap Bennic electrolytics ... about 50 cents each, replace those with equivalent Claritycaps or some film/foil cap for the easiest upgrade. When I worked the DM603's I found that the crossover point was about 500hz too high for the mid/tweet. The midrange has a severe peak right at the factory crossover point, so the 4th order network is fighting against that peak, and ends up producing about a 6db/octave slope ... which in turn results in nasty interractions at that point. I also thought the tweeter was padded down too much. After the changes to the crossover and building up the enclosure, the owner of the speakers was quite happy - they finally sounded like they should for the price.

You could do the same thing to your 602's, but that might mean less time talking and more time listening. Do you think your ego could handle that?

Ferres-

I have bi-wire cables too...lol it is funny how you will go out of your way to look for a speaker that is bi-wirable just because you have good cables lol. That is what hurts my feelings about the chorus line from Focal.

I was not really labeling anyone on this thread as anti-B&W! No offense towards anyone lol.

I have to say those Aurum Cantus Speakers are damn sexy looking. To bad you cannot listen to them anywhere and I am not sure I am a ribbon tweeter man....there is just something "off" to my ears with them. It could be that I am not used to the sounds of ribbons and that I could change over time but right now give me dome tweeters!

Again thanks for all the talk and advice on this thread...it is such a surprise some of the things you can learn.

Ty

FYI Pulliam, you can see clear as day the cause of the those weaknesses I and others state about the 602 S3's. Look at the graph,

http://ultimateavmag.com/images/archivesart/903bw.fig1.jpg

If there were a spectral decay and impedance plot I'm sure they'd show the same ... a cabinet resonance at around 1000-1100hz. That massive peak at just below 9000hz is also a major concern.

How to fix these things? Simple ... much of the 1000hz resonance can be fixed by the cabinet. What can't can be fixed by a simple notch filter. And the 9000hz peak can easily be fixed by padding the tweeter down.

Another problem with the 602s is a major suckout when off-axis in the vertical. That can't be fixed easily however, and means you need to place them carefully.

thebigtea-

My best cables are the 7 awg Ultra 12b's, Bi-wired at one end only. :rolleyes:

I would have liked to audition them at home to see how well they separate instuments and vocals. The dealer had a horrible set-up, very unreliable for testing.

I did notice they were very smooth for vocals. Very pleasant listening to them. :)

But I love the Sensys DC sound more, doing double duty for music and movies. ;)

Umm...forget the biwire...how about bi-amp? :rolleyes:

I'm surprised some of you find ribbons laid back. I have several speakers with domes, and I find the ribbon more crisp and detailed. Oh well, I guess we DO all hear differently. :D

I would have written the above as:

Saying that you think someone is wrong can be done without being insulting. Say it like you would face-to-face, or in a busy meeting with lots of other people.

:(
Also, the 600's do, in fact, have tube-loaded tweeters like the ones in the 800's. Obviously, Turbo is only familiar with the older models. I haven't heard the older models, but by all accounts the S3's are quite a bit better. :)

Umm...forget the biwire...how about bi-amp? :rolleyes:

I'm surprised some of you find ribbons laid back. I have several speakers with domes, and I find the ribbon more crisp and detailed. Oh well, I guess we DO all hear differently. :D

The dealer was using Tube amps. This may have affected the results. Set-ups are rarely identical, a number of things could affect the sound quality, from amps to cables to powercords to power outlets. Thats why home auditions are highly recommended so you know how they really sound with your gear. :)

A high watt power amp can do a lot to tighten the sound and push it out to the listener. I play around with bi-amping too, using 2 of the para 1200II but this process requires a bi-wirable speaker to work. I don't bridge the amps coz' they're kinda old and 2nd hand and might not work well. :o

PULLIAMM-

I had series one 600s and the new ones are MUCH better than the old ones in alot of ways.

If you like your speakers I think that is all that matters.

I find ribbon tweeters to be really really ...well I don't want to use the word bright, but really detailed and sharp...sizzle is a good adjective I think.

PULLIAMM-

I had series one 600s and the new ones are MUCH better than the old ones in alot of ways.

If you like your speakers I think that is all that matters.

I find ribbon tweeters to be really really ...well I don't want to use the word bright, but really detailed and sharp...sizzle is a good adjective I think.

I did not find the AC's bright at all but then again I have not home demoed them. Ribbon technology may just be getting better.:o

Yea, Ferres, tube amps would really give them a more laid back sound, which some prefer it that way. I'm using solid state and I never found them too bright or too laid back. I have them set up for HT now, with one of the bookshelves as my center channel, the way they image is amazing, I have it on top of my entertainment center, about 3-4ft above the tv, and you'd swear the sound is coming from the tv speaker. :)

You don't have the experience with a variety of products
ROFLMFAO, that is hilarious! :D You have been reading my posts for how long, a week?

My PSB 4t's where $600 when I bought them and I much prefer them to the 600 range...but again that is just me and I am pretty pro-PSB. ;)



I very nearly picked up a pair of the Stratus Golds a few months back. It was the first time I heard PSBs and was extremely impressed. It probably helped that I could have got them for a song (relatively speaking).

Scott

I very nearly picked up a pair of the Stratus Golds a few months back. It was the first time I heard PSBs and was extremely impressed. It probably helped that I could have got them for a song (relatively speaking).

Scott


They are not the best speakers in the world or the prettiest or the loudest, but for the money I really really like them. The sound just sits with me...I do however wish they where a little prettier. Then maybe my wife would not be so gung-ho on my getting rid of them =P

Some piano finished real wood wraps would just kick butt!

Ty

They are not the best speakers in the world or the prettiest or the loudest, but for the money I really really like them. The sound just sits with me...I do however wish they where a little prettier. Then maybe my wife would not be so gung-ho on my getting rid of them =P

Some piano finished real wood wraps would just kick butt!

Ty

Agreed 100%. Especially about the lack of WAF...wife took one look at those behemoths and that was the end of that...

Scott

Damn women anyway....

ROFLMFAO, that is hilarious! :D You have been reading my posts for how long, a week?

Wait Turbo...you ain't seen nothing yet! ;) Pulliam, with his frequent off the wall theories and statements, is the best entertainment on the forum. :D Everything sub $1k that he's heard is 95% of speakers 10-15 lines higher in the audio chain...lol...we're quite fond of him though, well,mostly. ;) :p :D

I really think he's just an over-opinionated 17-yr living in his parent's basement. ;)

jewel5-

that damn women thing does not apply to you so you know....you actually LIKE this stuff. That is almost as cool as a gal that will sit and watch football, or baseball, or sportscenter, or that likes beer....you get the idea.

LOL...I understand, it's cool. :D As long as your women don't insist on bose, I guess you're good to go. ;)

There's quite a few females on this site, from what I understand. We're everywhere...d*mn us!! :D

Wait Turbo...you ain't seen nothing yet! ;) Pulliam, with his frequent off the wall theories and statements, is the best entertainment on the forum. :D Everything sub $1k that he's heard is 95% of speakers 10-15 lines higher in the audio chain...lol...we're quite fond of him though, well,mostly. ;) :p :D

I really think he's just an over-opinionated 17-yr living in his parent's basement. ;)

Just the typical keyboard warrior who's tried to re-create his mundane life with an internet alter-ego.

What the heck was this thread about anyway?

ROFLMFAO, that is hilarious! :D You have been reading my posts for how long, a week?

Well, seeing how I've been here 3 1/2 years longer than you ...

What the heck was this thread about anyway?

It is about me getting a 2 channel listening room that is about 12'x12' with laminate flooring to sound good for less than $2k.

So far I am looking at a Marantz integrated amp and CD player and Paradigm Ref. 20s v3s for monitors and Energy rc-30s for floorstanders right now.

Also considering a ton of other options.

There you go!

thanks

Ty

It is about me getting a 2 channel listening room that is about 12'x12' with laminate flooring to sound good for less than $2k.

So far I am looking at a Marantz integrated amp and CD player and Paradigm Ref. 20s v3s for monitors and Energy rc-30s for floorstanders right now.

Also considering a ton of other options.

Oh yea, ha :)

Just took a brief look on audiogon, there's a ton of killer integrateds on there right now. Like a nad c370 for $375. Add the wonderful nad c542 cd player and your electronics are set.

Speakers obviously are the more difficult decision. Ref 20's are a good choice, although you'd probably want a sub with them. I'm not a fan of the RC-30's though, I find them very cold and hard to listen to for long periods. I'm just such a huge fan of audiogon, you really should check it out for speakers as well. For instance, you could get some Paradigm Studio 60's for around $1000, and in your budget. I've also seen a lot of PSB Stratus Silver and Stratus Golds going for cheap used lately, those are incredible performers as well. Swans 6.2 would be another killer choice.

Don't even worry about the room. If there are windows just hang some curtains, maybe put down a nice rug. Room interractions of course are real, but the impact gets overblown here for some reason. Proper placement of the speakers is more important than room treatments. If you want in your budget, include about $100 for a pc based Real Time Analyzer (RTA) software. That's the only way to KNOW if you need to treat the room.

For instance, you could get some Paradigm Studio 60's for around $1000, and in your budget.

that's a great price for a great speaker. thebigtea... if you like the 20s, you might want to jump on that.

Don't even worry about the room. If there are windows just hang some curtains, maybe put down a nice rug. Room interractions of course are real, but the impact gets overblown here for some reason. Proper placement of the speakers is more important than room treatments.

hey... those Regas are short enough that a couple of good plush chairs will suffice for room treatment. ;)

Nuance-

Thank you and damn you all at the same time! It looks like I will have to make a trip down to Milwaukee....to bad the Brewers are done or I could have cloaked the trip as a Brewer game run lol.

All three of those places look like I could spend a stupid amount of money there.

2 more years and the Packers will be going back to the playoffs...I hope.

Thanks
Ty
Heh, sorry.

I love Baseball, almost as much as Football. This year has been a big let down so far sports wise. :mad:



I just heard some really nice speakers last night, the Energy RC-30s. Totally built like tanks, look good and sound oh so nice. They are now on my list lol.
Ty

Where did you go to audition the Energy's?
Nuance -

Don't know much about the Milwaukee area, but from the Revel web site: two Sound Design locations in Mequon just north of the city would be good and also Da Vinci Media on 58th street is an option.
The things I like about the Concerta F12s are they're pretty much full range with a fairly smooth top, super mid-range, can be driven without a lot of power and are flexible in placement. I think for a budget MUSIC system in a small room, they are almost impossible to beat at $1500.

Thanks for the info Shipper. Funny thing, I live in Mequon and don't know where Sound Design is. :eek: Weird; perhaps they are contractors. I will look into. Thanks for the info.
I look at it this way: All of the unique technologies that make B&W speakers superior (tube-loaded Nautilus tweeters, Kevlar cones, "tuned" crossovers, flowports, resonance-resistant cabinets) are present in the 600 series. What the higher lines offer are subtle improvements (eg cabinet geometry) designed to squeeze out that last 5%.
That said, if I had the extra $1000 to spare, I would still consider the 705's (though they would actually be a step down from the 602's in terms of bass extention, more comparable to the 601's, in fact.)
Of one thing I am certain. I have never heard a $600 pair of speakers from any other manufacturer that sound as good as the 602's. Most are not even close.

I will roll my eyes at you for using the words "superior" and "Most are not even close" Yes, you know why... :rolleyes:

thebigtea, I also prefer PSB to B&W. It must be a Wisconsin thing. :)

Are you suggesting that you actually care whether or not a speaker can be biwired? I would be hard put to think of anything about a speaker less important than that! :eek:

This coming from a guy who said the same thing about speakers cables, but admitted he was thinking of upgrading to $200 worth of them. You are diseased my friend; diseased BADLY.

Jewel, you are the coolest gal on the internet! :)

turbo-

I look on audiogon every day. I am just not ready to decide on what to get is really all that is holding me back. There are tons of things on there that I would love to buy, but I don't have the xtra cash right now to buy and sell stuff....as much as I would love to.

When I do finally buy it more than likely will be off of audiogon though.

VicAjax-

I really want to hear those Rega's I will see if I cannot hunt something down. I also want to here the Aurum Cantus now that I have seen them...so pretty.

Nuance-

Packers, Bucks, Brewers...yeah the state has been a pretty big let down in the big three. =)

A gentleman in my area contacted me and said he had some Energys just "laying around" and that he would hook them up and let me take a listen. I read Turbo say they where harse to listen to, but they where hooked up to a 37 watt tube amp and they were like butter to my ears...of course he said he used the heck out of them for 2 years so...shrug.

Found out where those Revel dealers are man! lol

I don't dislike B&W at all, but the PSBs are just nice and easy. Viva la Wisconsin!

turbo-

I look on audiogon every day. I am just not ready to decide on what to get is really all that is holding me back. There are tons of things on there that I would love to buy, but I don't have the xtra cash right now to buy and sell stuff....as much as I would love to.

When I do finally buy it more than likely will be off of audiogon though.

VicAjax-

I really want to hear those Rega's I will see if I cannot hunt something down. I also want to here the Aurum Cantus now that I have seen them...so pretty.

Nuance-

Packers, Bucks, Brewers...yeah the state has been a pretty big let down in the big three. =)

A gentleman in my area contacted me and said he had some Energys just "laying around" and that he would hook them up and let me take a listen. I read Turbo say they where harse to listen to, but they where hooked up to a 37 watt tube amp and they were like butter to my ears...of course he said he used the heck out of them for 2 years so...shrug.

Found out where those Revel dealers are man! lol

I don't dislike B&W at all, but the PSBs are just nice and easy. Viva la Wisconsin!

I found the Revel dealer; it is a contract type thing, but they have a showroom. It is appointment only. I guess I will have to pull out my suit...not. :D

Yes, Viva La Wisconsin! :)

turbo-

I look on audiogon every day. I am just not ready to decide on what to get is really all that is holding me back. There are tons of things on there that I would love to buy, but I don't have the xtra cash right now to buy and sell stuff....as much as I would love to.


Oh, btw ... I said I didn't like the Energy RC-30's. I should have double checked before saying that. I haven't heard the RC-30's, I was thinking of the R-300's, sorry.

The good thing about buying from audiogon is the only hit you take is cost of shipping. Other than that, anything you buy can pretty much be re-sold for the same cost if you don't love it. The initial investment is all it takes, but that's also the hardest part :)

Good luck with whatever you get! I'm thinking of trying some boutique stuff that I never get to hear in person because nobody around here has them - something like Meadowlark, Spendor, or Von Schweikert. Buy em, maybe keep em, maybe resell ... but at least see what they're all about.

I really think he's just an over-opinionated 17-yr living in his parent's basement. ;)
Actually, I am an over-opinionated, over-educated, and thoroughly bored 44-yr living on my own. I also used to spend as much time as possible hanging out at high-end shops (and trying to keep the owners from figuring out that I was a penniless student :D ), so I have first-hand experience with a huge variety of equipment.

This coming from a guy who said the same thing about speakers cables, but admitted he was thinking of upgrading to $200 worth of them.
At what point did I say anything about $200 worth? Actually, I did upgrade them, but only to $2/ft cables ($36 total.) :) I only bothered with that because everything else in my system is so good that it would take a huge amount of $ to improve on any part of it. (except interconnects, of course :D )
As for biwiring, it has exactly the same effect as increasing the wire gauge.

I'm thinking of trying some boutique stuff that I never get to hear in person because nobody around here has them - something like Meadowlark, Spendor, or Von Schweikert.

i've heard Spendor and VSA... both definitely worth checking out.

Spendor is on the analytical side... not for everyone but still great.

The Von Schweikert VR-1 monitor would undoubtedly be on my short list if i were in the market for monitors... and you can find them now for $600. for that money, they walk all over B&W, or just about any other monitor i've heard in that range.

the VR-2 i only heard for a minute or so, but they sounded sweet and smooth as well. one word of caution, the cabinet needs to be filled with sand or lead-shot, so that makes them a bit more high-maintenance in terms of setting up and reselling.

At what point did I say anything about $200 worth? Actually, I did upgrade them, but only to $2/ft cables ($36 total.) :) I only bothered with that because everything else in my system is so good that it would take a huge amount of $ to improve on any part of it. (except interconnects, of course :D )
As for biwiring, it has exactly the same effect as increasing the wire gauge.

You mentioned that someone suggested you upgrade to some better cables. I thought you had said it would be $200 worth after everything was replaced and that you were actually thinking about it (I may be mistaken).

A CD-player will not give you better sound. Even if it did, it would be nothing compared to upgrading the speakers. IOW, it's a waste unless there is something seriously wrong with the current unit.

Yea, Ferres, tube amps would really give them a more laid back sound, which some prefer it that way. I'm using solid state and I never found them too bright or too laid back. I have them set up for HT now, with one of the bookshelves as my center channel, the way they image is amazing, I have it on top of my entertainment center, about 3-4ft above the tv, and you'd swear the sound is coming from the tv speaker. :)

I like solid states too. Plenty of power for all kinds of speakers. Vacuum tube amps have more trouble with hard to drive speakers. :p

Well, the dealer will allow me to home demo either the Leisure 2 or 3. The moon goddes was already sold. Too bad I never got to hear it. I'm still breaking in the CDT 15a, it definitely sounds better than the 6980. We'll see if they match up well.

But I still suspect that the Aurum Cantus won't equal the Sensys DC's when it comes to separation and imaging. :(

At what point did I say anything about $200 worth? Actually, I did upgrade them, but only to $2/ft cables ($36 total.) :) I only bothered with that because everything else in my system is so good that it would take a huge amount of $ to improve on any part of it. (except interconnects, of course :D )
As for biwiring, it has exactly the same effect as increasing the wire gauge.

Well, if there is ever anytime you want to spend +/- $100 for a cable, get an Isotek powercord for your Integrated. :p

Well, the dealer will allow me to home demo either the Leisure 2 or 3. The moon goddes was already sold. Too bad I never got to hear it. I'm still breaking in the CDT 15a, it definitely sounds better than the 6980. We'll see if they match up well.

But I still suspect that the Aurum Cantus won't equal the Sensys DC's when it comes to separation and imaging. :(

Do let us know what you think if you demo them. :) Are they the modified US versions? The Chinese stock versions aren't as good from what I've heard. Mine were modded by Ohio Valley Audio, the crossover was modded and it has dual binding posts. I find they are also sensitive to the equipment they're hooked up to. I first tried them on an integrated and they sounded like nothing special, then I hooked them to my main amp/preamp and wow, I fell in love. :D The way the sound pans around you on some recordings is spectacular, like you have full surround on. I don't much listen to complex classical or jazz recordings, but they are perfect on acoustic rock and such that I listen to. I would recommend demoing the Leisure 3s if you can, the tweeter is supposed to be even better. :D Your Tannoys too I've heard are exceptional. Personally, I would love to be able to demo the AC Harmony speakers, does your dealer carry those? If so, please give them a listen and post your impressions as I would love to hear them. :D

When I do finally buy it more than likely will be off of audiogon though.


Yeah, I love that place.

Hmm...

If I had $2K for stereo-from-scratch, I would get these

http://www.selahaudio.com/id15.html

in the Maple or Cherry option (like the second pic) w/ std crossovers. I believe the Maple or Cherry versions are both returnable.

I would pair those with these (or similar, when I was ready to purchase):

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatran&1164585562

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1164982203



What would really be great is a nice budget tube integrated, but I do not see how you could shoehorn one of those into a $2K budget. That's too bad.

Good luck with what ever you choose!

thanks for the info jon-

I have seen a couple of Jolida tubers for decent on Audiogon, I think that would be pretty decent. Also I saw a marantz integrated for cheap...and I was really happy with the marantz sound when I listened last weekend.

I have been reading up on AC and have been pretty impressed so far to say the least...and man are they gorgeous!

Earlier this year, I agreed to buy a Jolida 502b from a guy I found on Audiogon who lived locally. The thing is, the email I sent to his email address confirming that I wanted to purchase for the agreed upon price, bounced back as undeliverable. Every email I sent to him after that, from a few different accounts of mine, all bounced back. That was around March.

Me being me, I found something else to spend the money on (SVS subwoofer for the HT).

Would have been nice to have tried one out, however.


Oh, one more thing. I can't believe I forgot. Check this out:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?intatube&1165342124

This is the product page:

http://www.**********/products_product.php?section=processors&product=26.1

A CD-player will not give you better sound. Even if it did, it would be nothing compared to upgrading the speakers. IOW, it's a waste unless there is something seriously wrong with the current unit.
I expect you are right. The funny thing is that I was thinking about a new CD player not because their is anything wrong with mine but, on the contrary, because it sounds fantastic.
My thought was (and this is how upgradeitis always starts) "Man, if this CD changer sounds this good for only $200, how incredible must a $550 single-disc player sound?!" :p

jon-

Oh I know..I have been eyeing the Onix Int. up for some time...there deal for it and teh ref. 1 speakers is pretty awesome..and that is even brand new stuff.

thanks

Ty

I regret not going for it myself.

...there deal for it and teh ref. 1 speakers is pretty awesome..and that is even brand new stuff.

The only thing that excites me about those ref1 speakers is the finish. I love rosewood finishes. I am going to use rosewood to finish the DIY 3-way towers I am making for a new dedicated 2-channel system for my bedroom. I would not want the ref1 pair for a stereo only system, since they do not have nearly enough bass extension for me. The towers I am DIYing have a pair of 8" woofers in each enclosure. The design has a -10dB point of ~22Hz and a -3dB point of less than 36Hz. That is more like it for me. :D

Once the speakers are done, I will be using the stereo outputs of my Sony ES C555es SACD-Multi/CD 5-disc changer as a source. The multichannel outputs go to my multichannel music system in the same room.

I haven't selected an amp/pre combo or an integrated for this system, yet. I would like to try a tube setup, but I may have a spare Parasound 2-ch amp by the time the speakers are finished.

I am also looking to keep my investment to less than $2K for stereo only. I have a Stereophile "Class A" source already, however. The DIY speaker project is running ~$850, partly because of the $200 sheet of rosewood veneer I need for the rosewood finish. That still leaves a good chunk of change for an integrated or amp/pre combo. Especially if I end up using my existing Parasound 2-ch amp, as well. ;)

Well, if there is ever anytime you want to spend +/- $100 for a cable, get an Isotek powercord for your Integrated. :p
Having long been a hardcore sceptic of all things cable-related, I was astonished that the $2/ft speaker wire actually made a slight but audible improvement (does anyone know a good recipe for crow? :D ) Since these were Kimber, I may try one of their more affordable interconnects to see if that also makes another incremental improvement.
Neither my integrated nor my CD player have detachable power cords. I think the power conditioner I am using accomplishes more than that anyway (and was a very reasonable $35.)

I am also looking to keep my investment to less than $2K for stereo only.

If the goal is fidelity for cost and bookshelves offer more performance per dollar than towers, then the compromise in low frequency extension is worth it. And as far as the Ref 1's are concerned, they pay off in spades, especially considering their price combined with the SP-3. It's an incredible value.

jon-

thanks for quoting my "teh"...makes me feel so smart =P

I like rosewood a lot myself, it has that nice warm glow and feeling to it. Your speakers sound like they should kick a lot of but but are going to be a bit of overkill for me in my small room.

Really want to hear the Aurum Cantus after seeing them. I know it sounds wrong, but they just look so nice I hope they sound as good.

The Onix tuber and Jolida's hybrid line are pretty much what I have in mind for tube power, and the Marantz Int. for solid state. Might have to spend more and resell some stuff to get below the 2k$ mark...the wife will love that.

jmi-

you have hit it. I feel I can always get myself a smallish nice sub down the line and see about making it work in this system. I am not a huge bass guy anyways, as long as it is crisp and accurate I am fine. That said I don't want something that cuts out at 100hz either =)

Thanks

Ty

Speaking of 100hz, I blew one of my Ref's at 106dB @ 100hz @ 1 meter. They respond well below that, but it's doubtful they'd go as loud at lower frequencies.

Having long been a hardcore sceptic of all things cable-related, I was astonished that the $2/ft speaker wire actually made a slight but audible improvement (does anyone know a good recipe for crow? :D ) Since these were Kimber, I may try one of their more affordable interconnects to see if that also makes another incremental improvement.
Neither my integrated nor my CD player have detachable power cords. I think the power conditioner I am using accomplishes more than that anyway (and was a very reasonable $35.)

Sounds like you are on the path to becoming best friends with SOWK. :p
Save your money for the next speaker upgrade buddy. ;)

Sounds like you are on the path to becoming best friends with SOWK. :p
Save your money for the next speaker upgrade buddy. ;)
We haven't heard from him lately, and I was hoping we wouldn't. Mentioning his name might bring him back! :eek: I am talking about minor improvements at reasonable cost, not night and day differences for mega$, so it is a very different viewpoint.
I am only bothering with those things because I don't know if I will upgrade speakers again.

For $2K you should look at the latest issue of TAS. Paradigm Studio 20 V.3 speakers, an Onkyo A-955 integrated amp and an Onkyo DX-7555 CD player. For an integrated amp I would also look at a Cambridge Azur 540A ($460), a used Onix SP-3 tube amp or Jolida 202A (around $500). Check out the Music Hall 25.2CD player. A very nice player at a reasonable cost ($600).

I am only bothering with those things because I don't know if I will upgrade speakers again.

That's funny, because we all on this forum know you will, so how could you not know? :)

I heard some Vandersteen 2ce's this past weekend. I think they are $1500/pr retail. I think they would make for an excellent two-channel system.

Sorry if they have already been mentioned.

That's funny, because we all on this forum know you will, so how could you not know? :)
I understand why you think I will. The only possible upgrade left at this point, however, is farther up the B&W line. I am not convinced that the jump in price is worth the small increase in performance (remember that the 602's have all of the features of the higher end models except fancy cabinets and diamond tweeter diaphagms, and very nearly the same sound.)
I once kept a pair of speakers for 17 years without feeling the upgrade bug (Boston A60's. :cool: ) The 602's are good enough for that to happen with them also. This is why I am going for tiny but affordable upgrades.
(I am far from being rich enough to consider only performance in absolute terms, cost has to be a factor. The 705's or CM7's would be great, but it is very hard to justify $1000+ above the awesome 602's.)

I heard some Vandersteen 2ce's this past weekend. I think they are $1500/pr retail. I think they would make for an excellent two-channel system.

Sorry if they have already been mentioned.


from what I understand the VS have a very love it or hate it sound. I would love to hear them, but...no dealer nearby.

Pulliamm-

the new CM7s from B&W look pretty hot, and if they sound like the CM1 monitors they should be really nice and you could upgrade for less than 1k.

From my experience the CM series is a different sound than the DM though, more laid back so you may not care but I prefer the CMs to the DMs.

Thanks!

Ty

the new CM7s from B&W look pretty hot, and if they sound like the CM1 monitors they should be really nice and you could upgrade for less than 1k.

My understanding is that the CM7's are going for $1900. Trade-in for my 602's would be $600 leaving a $1300 difference, so definitely not less than 1K. (Plus we have 8% sales tax here.) Even the 705's would set me back $900 before tax. :(

My understanding is that the CM7's are going for $1900. Trade-in for my 602's would be $600 leaving a $1300 difference, so definitely not less than 1K. (Plus we have 8% sales tax here.) Even the 705's would set me back $900 before tax. :(


Gah sorry thought you where talking about the 703s for some reason. Please ignore this idiot :D

They sure are pretty though aren't they?

Ty

Gah sorry thought you where talking about the 703s for some reason. Please ignore this idiot :D

They sure are pretty though aren't they?

Ty
Yes, they are pretty. :D One of the reasons that the 602's offer such excellent performance for the $ is that they put all of the $ into the quality and none into cosmetics. They are clunky and boring to look at, but sound awesome.
EDIT: FWIW the 703's are way out of my league. I don't know just how much they go for, but it is a lot more than the CM7's.

One of the reasons that the 602's offer such excellent performance for the $ is that they put all of the $ into the quality and none into cosmetics.

Hmm, I guess that's why they used poor quality $.25 Bennic caps in the crossover? Or maybe it was because they blew all their budget on marketing.

Hmm, I guess that's why they used poor quality $.25 Bennic caps in the crossover? Or maybe it was because they blew all their budget on marketing.
None of us actually believe that you have access to any of this inside information that you claim to know.
Even if they did use the cheap caps you claim, it was an acceptable choice since the sound is as good as any $600/pr speaker on the market regardless of manufacturer, and vastly better than most.
Also, where is all this alleged marketing that you imagine they are spending $ on? Specialty magazines are practically the only place I have seen ads for them at all. A random member of the public is far more likely to have heard of Bose, Pioneer, Yamaha, Infinity, Polk, etc. than of B&W.
I think you are just making all this crap up to annoy those of us who chose B&W instead of Wharfedale (as if those were better! :D )

Yup, BMW's are nice. I see adds for them all of the time!

I don't think anyone here can say that B&W makes bad speakers. Are there some out there that offer more for less money or the same money? To some ears the answer is yes. Others would argue that they would rather pay a little more for a company that they know will stand behind their product, or that you can run down to the dealership where you bought them for some help.

Is it wrong that B&W uses the resources at it's desposal to increase it's market share through advertisement? Bah it would be wrong of them not to. They are in the business of selling speakers and that is what they do. Advertisement is not always used to hide a bad product.

Again, there may be speakers you prefer to spend your money on but look at it this way....

You can buy a Corvette z06 and get the same (if not better) performence out of it as you can say a Porsche 911 Turbo for about half the money. However your treatment at the Porsche dealer is going to be much different than your treatment at the Chevy dealer. The looks you get from people are going to be different, the build quality is different etc etc. It is not always about solid things for your money. Sometimes it is the experience of owning a porsche or owning B&Ws that is worth the money.

I think B&W is one of the best known "hi-end" speaker brands, but still not even near to the Infinity's or Polks of the world...at least in my neck of the woods.

Thanks!

Ty

Something that really impressed me about my B&W dealer is that I had $900 to spend and told him so, but instead of selling me $900 speakers he assessed my needs and sold me $600 speakers that suit those needs better instead.

Something that really impressed me about my B&W dealer is that I had $900 to spend and told him so, but instead of selling me $900 speakers he assessed my needs and sold me $600 speakers that suit those needs better instead.


You should have bought the center channel to go along with the mains! There goes that $900.00!

None of us actually believe that you have access to any of this inside information that you claim to know.

Ha, the only thing 'inside' about that information is that it's openly available inside your speaker. It's pretty simple to pull the driver and take a look for yourself. Go ahead and try it sometime ... I'm sure your particular speakers are no different from the other B&W 600 series I've seen the insides of. And if you'd search around, you'd see that many other DIY'ers around the world have come to the same conclusion, that B&W uses cheap components in all but their high-end stuff.

It's good in that your speakers have plenty of room for improvement ... bad in that they charge too much for what they're selling.

I think you are just making all this crap up to annoy those of us who chose B&W instead of Wharfedale (as if those were better! :D )

I don't push Wharfedale at any given opportunity like you do with B&W, I simply use, tweak, and enjoy my Wharfedale stuff. I'm also not deluded enough to think that they're the epitome of sound in their price range - although they might be at the prices I've managed to pick them up. I can also admit that they have weaknesses - stamped frames on the woofers, cabinets need more bracing, and similarly cheap components in the crossovers. I've addressed all those issues however, and my particular speakers were simply better than the B&W 704's and 604S3's that I had for an in-home audition.

The only point is that you need to realize there ARE many many better speakers in the price range than your 602S3's, and you're never going to improve your system until you acknowledge that fact.

You can buy a Corvette z06 and get the same (if not better) performence out of it as you can say a Porsche 911 Turbo for about half the money. However your treatment at the Porsche dealer is going to be much different than your treatment at the Chevy dealer. The looks you get from people are going to be different, the build quality is different etc etc. It is not always about solid things for your money. Sometimes it is the experience of owning a porsche or owning B&Ws that is worth the money.


Ty


You can't use the performance that either one will deliver, so it's all about ego!

As far as treatment at a Chevy or Porsche dealer is concerned, you do pay dearly for the service end of the business. Deep pockets are required to own either vehicle! That goes for BMW's also!

You should have bought the center channel to go along with the mains! There goes that $900.00!
Nice try. This is strictly a 2.0-channel system. (Something they used to call "stereo" back in the day. :D )

Nice try. This is strictly a 2.0-channel system. (Something they used to call "stereo" back in the day. :D )


Hey, I use the same speakers for 2 channel playback that I use for 5.1 playback.

There is nothing special about a 2 channel setup that can not be duplicated with a 5.1 channel setup. All you have to do is play in "stereo". Simply press that 'stereo" button on the remote control!

The only point is that you need to realize there ARE many many better speakers in the price range than your 602S3's, and you're never going to improve your system until you acknowledge that fact.
I will never acknowledge something that is not the case.
You are correct, however, when you say that I am not going to improve my system (except in small ways , like maybe a new CD player at some point.) The reasons for this are that I am extremely happy with what I have, and that a noticible improvement would cost more than I am willing to spend (The next step up in speakers would be more than twice the price.)
FWIW I would never risk damaging my speakers by disassembling them. :(

I forgot to add that my choice of B&W is neither the beginning of a path nor random, but the end result of a lot of comparison and research.

Hey, I use the same speakers for 2 channel playback that I use for 5.1 playback.

There is nothing special about a 2 channel setup that can not be duplicated with a 5.1 channel setup. All you have to do is play in "stereo". Simply press that 'stereo" button on the remote control!
True, but my dedicated stereo system is higher quality than my HT system, and the speakers are direct radiating (better for music) while the HT speakers are bipolar (better for theatrical ambiance.) I listen far more critically to music than I do to movie soundtracks, so I spend all my upgrade money on the music setup.

[QUOTE=TurboFC3S I've addressed all those issues however, and my particular speakers were simply better than the B&W 704's and 604S3's that I had for an in-home audition.

The only point is that you need to realize there ARE many many better speakers in the price range than your 602S3's, and you're never going to improve your system until you acknowledge that fact.[/QUOTE]

Simply better? To you, perhaps.

Just as, to Pulliam, there are no better speakers out there at $600 that he'd rather have, sound better, whatever.

What are the chances that either of you can convince the other that your opinion is fact?

I will never acknowledge something that is not the case.

That should tell anyone all they need to know about your point of view - you're just a B&W fanboy. That's fine by itself, but the annoying part is you doling that opinion out as fact. You never give alternatives - you just make uninformed blanket statements like "nothing can beat my B&W's for the price".

FWIW I would never risk damaging my speakers by disassembling them.

Ignorance is bliss ...

Simply better? To you, perhaps.

Just as, to Pulliam, there are no better speakers out there at $600 that he'd rather have, sound better, whatever.

Just like my old friend Gary who thinks his Cerwin Vega's are the best.

What are the chances that either of you can convince the other that your opinion is fact?

The difference is that I'm not trying to convince anybody that some particular speaker is the best at any price range, I never have. But that's Pulliams repeated stance, never offering alternatives, the typical internet fanboy who needs affirmation of his purchasing decision.

On the internet expertise isn't a pre-requisite for opening your mouth unfortunately.

True, but my dedicated stereo system is higher quality than my HT system, and the speakers are direct radiating (better for music) while the HT speakers are bipolar (better for theatrical ambiance.) I listen far more critically to music than I do to movie soundtracks, so I spend all my upgrade money on the music setup.



Good speakers for 2 channel music are good speakers for HT use!

Then we should all be jealous of Gary.

i agree that IF Pulliam wants affirmation, he'd be better suited in the B&W forum at HTGuide, but I dont begrudge him his enthusiasm, and i think most people here recommend what they own. You can't open a "rec me some speakers" thread in any price range without the Ascends getting mentioned as the best for the buck.

So umm....I didn't mean to leave the BMW out of the Porsche/Corvette thing...

=P

there should be a branch of science dedicated to the path a thread like this takes when it gets completely of topic.

On that note I ordered some Onix x-ls monitors just to toy around with until I decide what I REALLY want to get. It is hard not to at least check them out for the price....heck I know there are a ton of mods to make them better. Maybe I will spend 400$ on speakers (x-sls) and $1600 on electronics!

I thought the speakers would be the easy part, but are turning into the hard part. I have pretty much decided to snag some used tubes from audiogon, use my current cd player from Onkyo or possibly grab the marantz 5 disc for $250. So now I have to start bringing the speakers home with me and trying them out.

I am going to have some Aperions come first and since I have my 4ts still I can A/B them right in the house with the 533Ts. Since I will also have the Onix I will toss em all together and tell you guys what I find.

Wish me luck lol....my wife is going to kill me =)

The x-ls are great for the price. I'd like to get a pair and experiment with crossover tweaks. Maybe after I'm done with my current projects I will ...

Why tubes? Have you heard a lot of tube stuff, or do you just want to try it because you think you'll like it? I've heard tubes I like, but I've heard more tubes that I don't like whereas solid state amps are less hit and miss, and with a lot less trouble to use.

Definately let us know your impressions of all the gear!

Turbo-

I figure I have been listening to solid states forever so why not try something new? I have heard a Cayin tube integrated and I love it. If it does not work out well...audiogon and ebay right? =)

The X series of gear is worth the money just for the real wood enclosure. I figure very worst case scenario I will put them in the kitchen at the new house...all the wood in there is maple anyway.

Ty,

Here is what you want from AV123...

Strata Mini + SP3 Special!

"Here is a great two-channel special for everyone... Strata Mini loudspeakers in Rosewood and an Onix SP3 Tube-based Integrated Amplifier for only $1999!"

"Plus you get a free pair of Reference .5 loudspeakers FREE!"

Holy crap! when did they put that out?

That is a sweet deal....wow.

Unfortunately, nobody but employees have heard the Strata Mini yet.

Unfortunately, nobody but employees have heard the Strata Mini yet.


My prejudice is against planer-magnetic drivers.

Ty,

Here is what you want from AV123...

Strata Mini + SP3 Special!

"Here is a great two-channel special for everyone... Strata Mini loudspeakers in Rosewood and an Onix SP3 Tube-based Integrated Amplifier for only $1999!"

"Plus you get a free pair of Reference .5 loudspeakers FREE!"

Interesting ...

Ignorance is bliss ...
Not wanting to take the speakers apart has nothing to do with ignorance. It has everything to do with not voiding the warranty, and with the possibility of breaking them. :rolleyes:

Good speakers for 2 channel music are good speakers for HT use!
But not vice-versa. The huge soundstage created by my Def Tech bipolars really makes it seem like being "in the movie". For music, however, they lack focus and the bass is excessive. :cool:

So umm....I didn't mean to leave the BMW out of the Porsche/Corvette thing...

=P

there should be a branch of science dedicated to the path a thread like this takes when it gets completely of topic.

On that note I ordered some Onix x-ls monitors just to toy around with until I decide what I REALLY want to get. It is hard not to at least check them out for the price....heck I know there are a ton of mods to make them better. Maybe I will spend 400$ on speakers (x-sls) and $1600 on electronics!

I thought the speakers would be the easy part, but are turning into the hard part. I have pretty much decided to snag some used tubes from audiogon, use my current cd player from Onkyo or possibly grab the marantz 5 disc for $250. So now I have to start bringing the speakers home with me and trying them out.

I am going to have some Aperions come first and since I have my 4ts still I can A/B them right in the house with the 533Ts. Since I will also have the Onix I will toss em all together and tell you guys what I find.

Wish me luck lol....my wife is going to kill me =)

You really should upgrade your source(Onkyo) before you do another speaker upgrade. From what I read the Onix is a good speaker. You benefit most from the best possible source. "Garbage in; Garbage out" :D

I can't say I've had a ton of experience with tons of different gear. But if budget is that tight--why not build your own speakers? Here's what I would suggest:

Build a pair of Modula MTs--total cost of about $270, or if you want to buy cabinets instead of build them add $160

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=13154

Small room, lower volumes, buy one of the Trends Audio Class T amp

http://www.trendsaudio.com/EN/Product/TA-10_desc.htm

I bought mine from Audiomagus--somewhere in the $150 range

Then, get a CD player of your choice. Best of all, if you are able to build those speakers and use that amp, and a $100 cd player, you could have approximately $1400 to buy a plasma to put in the room too!

BTW, I live in the Twin Cities and have that exact setup if wanted to demo them... (yes a fan of what I bought--but for the price simply amazing)

Cheers
Mike

Hey Mike, I had that exact combo in my office for awhile - a pair of Modula MT's and a Trends T amp. I have to say, it was painful to listen too. I thought it was the amp, so I swapped in a pair of Red Dragon ICEpower monoblocks, and it was still bad sounding. After trying about 5 amps on the Modula MT's, I realized they're the problem. I've also built a pair of MTM's using the Dayton drivers and didn't have any more success, using a proven crossover design. I like the RS28 tweeter, but not the woofers.

I imagine if you had tubes or a warm SS amp somewhere in the stream then the Dayton drivers would sound better, it would take the edge off. But then what's the point? You get metal cones for detail, but I get more detail from my paper cone GR drivers and Peerless paper/nextel cones while also being MUCH easier to listen to.

To me the Daytons are a perfect example of measuring well but sounding like poo.

Just goes to show that we all have different tastes...

Mike