Samsung DTB-H260F ATSC tuner [Text View]

tadietz

10-25-06, 11:51 AM

I bought the DTB-H260F last night in Austin, Texas at the Lakeline BB. I wandered all around in the TV-home theater area until one of the guys asked me what I was looking for and then showed me some of the older units. I noticed the new, small unit sitting beside it (an empty shell, like already mentioned) and he said "Oh, yeah. We just got those in. I don't know anything about it."

I took it home, hooked it up without once refering to the manual to do anything, including going through the setup and auto-scanning for channels, etc. I would really give Samsung good marks on the menu interface for the box iteself. Very intuitive and works just like you would expect.

I would echo the above comments about the program guide. It, also, is quite nice and reminds me of my Dish channel guide. It even has Full and Mini modes. Full has a small image of the screen in the upper left corner and more lots of channel and time slot info, mini has less info and more picture. It also has some sort of scheduling feature, which I haven't tried. I am assuming all it does is interrupt you if you are viewing something else when one of the reminders you set is triggered, and then allows you to jump directly to the channel you set up.

It would be sweet if scheduling would actually wake up the box and go to the right channel. Something like that would make it so easy to synch with a DVD recorder or computer that no one within range of good HD locals would ever have to buy local channels from Dish or Direct just to be able to record Lost, Heros, CSI, etc.! But that would really be too much to ask in a box that only costs $179. All in all, the menuing is very nice. It is also quite responsive, not slow at all, and has crystal clear resolution.

As far as I can tell, having no previous experience with OTA HD reception, this thing must be pretty sensitive. I live 18 miles or so from the HD transmitters in Austin, and I was able to pull in all the ones I knew about (and a Spanish language one I didn't) with not a lot of effort. I was just using an old Radio Shack UHF/VHF amplified indoor antenna that I fiddled with while observing the channel strength indicator on the channel portion of the menu system. I got all the channels to come in with all the bars blue, which is as good as you can get.

I hooked the receiver up my Akai PDP-4273M (the new model) 42" Plasma monitor ($999 @ Fry's on sale a few weeks ago - an awsome monitor IMHO) via the component output on the receiver because the solo HDMI input on the monitor is in use by the DVD player. It works great and delivers a stunning picture. I was amazed.

On the downside, this thing does have a few things I would have done differently. For one, you have to hard select the output quality (1080i, 720p, 480p, etc.) and output mode (HDMI or Component) via switches on the back of the box. Why couldn't these be selected via the software using the menu? Probably a cost issue. A lot cheaper and easier to use the switches, likely. And, not that I need it, but it has no SD OTA tuner, which some of the PC tuner cards include in case you are in an area where not everything is in HD. In Austin you don't need it, but it is a missing feature. Again, probably a cost consideration (which I appreciate!).

Also, for some reason, one of the HD channels, at least for the Carson Daly show that was on late while I was playing around with my new toy - I don't usually stay up that late and am not a fan - seemed too "sharpened." It looked like my DVD player output when I push the sharpening option one or two notches too far. I didn't notice this earlier on other NBC shows, and none of the other channels exhibited the phenomenon, so I don't know if it is a receiver issue or not.

All in all, I am very pleased. For the price this thing kicks. I would highly recommend it. Now if I can just come up with a way to easily record HD stuff using the channel guide info and features... Oh, well, I save that for another post. This one is way too long.

Rammitinski

10-25-06, 01:27 PM

Carson Daly is in HD? Not in my area. :)

Anyway, if you can find a DVD/DVR that has a code to change the channels on the Samsung through an IR blaster, you'll be in business, but with manually set timer recording, of course (no guide recording). You can just leave the tuner on then.

You'll most likely only be able to set the DVR to record from the main channels though, and not the subchannels.

biker19

10-25-06, 02:43 PM

On the downside, this thing does have a few things I would have done differently. For one, you have to hard select the output quality (1080i, 720p, 480p, etc.) and output mode (HDMI or Component) via switches on the back of the box. Why couldn't these be selected via the software using the menu? Probably a cost issue. A lot cheaper and easier to use the switches, likely. And, not that I need it, but it has no SD OTA tuner, which some of the PC tuner cards include in case you are in an area where not everything is in HD. In Austin you don't need it, but it is a missing feature. Again, probably a cost consideration (which I appreciate!).

Actually it's kind of nice to have switches - you never have to worry about hooking up in a certain way to get any kind of picture (my LiteOn DVDr provides output on composite outputs only after a firmware flash - so I have to change cables just to get to the menu to switch to component).

I assume you meant it doesn't have an NTSC tuner - ATSC/QAM only. In a couple of years there won't be any NTSC OTA to tune to so it's just forward thinking on their part.

tadietz

10-25-06, 02:50 PM

Thanks. I am likely mistaken about Carson Daly (it was pretty late), but I could have sworn it was HD. Anyway - I'll try to stay up past my bedtime again some night to check :).

What you say makes sense, though. but it was better looking than the SD of the locals from Dish, which seem pretty poor quality in my experience when compared to things like SciFi and History Channel, etc. from Dish.

rittenjo

10-26-06, 01:26 AM

I've called all the Best Buy stores in SE Wisconsin with no luck. Out of about 15 BB's that I've called only 2 stores had any idea of what I was talking about. The people at circuit city are even more worthless.

Response from the smartest BB employees... "We will be carrying them, we don't know when, our warehouse doesn't have any, try online"

I got the "go ahead" from the wife a month a ago when I found out the DTB-H260F was going to be coming out and now I've had this great lesson/test of patience because I'm not able to find one to buy yet. You guys are making me jealous. I really wanted to watch "Lost" tonight in HD.

I think I'm done venting now, thanks :(

pekkle

10-26-06, 03:14 AM

rittenjo, I feel your pain. When the wife gives the OK, it's usually the last hurdle to clear, but in this case it's not and that is a bit disorienting. :) In my case JoeMoon seemingly has the only unit in the state of Missouri. :confused:

littleracers

10-26-06, 09:05 AM

Guys,

I got the ok from the wife and I got mine last night. I originally bought a Digital Stream 3150 Plus. What a mistake that was....took that sucker back after reading these posts. Living in Dallas I went to the local BB and looked and looked and finally found the "Display" unit.

I asked if they had it and they told me to come back a a few weeks. Not willing to take no for an answer, I asked if they could look up other stores in the area. I was in luck that there was another best buy across town that has 2 of them. Trumpets were sounding in my ears!

I drive over to the other BB and I asked and they took me over to where they were and they had 3! He handed me the top one and I started to walk out. Then I noticed the box had a ups label on it and it felt light.....HE handed me their display unit in a box and did not know it. After grabbing another one I was out the door.

I can tell you that my current set up is this. I have cable coming into our house, but my roomate is paying for it. I hooked up to an outlet and scanned the channels. It scanned 1-135. Once it was done I was picking up quite a few channels. The only thing is that our cable requires a cable box and thus a lot of the cable was scrambled. No worries though as I bought it for the HD for the projector. The pic was great and I can not believe what a deal this item was.

So with that, I am very happy with it.

The BB in Mckinney, Tx has one more. I am not looking to make money on this, but if there is someone with no patience let me know. I will pick it up for you and ship the whole thing to you receipt and all...All you need to do is cover the price plus the UPS fee...probably less than $10.00

Send me a PM if you are interested.

Chris

Davinleeds

10-26-06, 06:03 PM

littleracers, How many PMs?

urbansoles

10-26-06, 06:14 PM

Is there anyone else with local access to a DTB-H260F that is willing to buy one and ship it to me? I have a UPS account, so I can email you a prepaid shipping label and all you will have to do is purchase the unit and drop it off to your local UPS location. I'll pay you any way you want; just PM me...

I really appreciate anyone who has the time and is willing to make this guy really happy :) !!

Rammitinski

10-26-06, 06:22 PM

I can tell you that my current set up is this. I have cable coming into our house, but my roomate is paying for it. I hooked up to an outlet and scanned the channels. It scanned 1-135. Once it was done I was picking up quite a few channels. The only thing is that our cable requires a cable box and thus a lot of the cable was scrambled. No worries though as I bought it for the HD for the projector.
Chris
You can split the incoming cable to both the Samsung and the old cable box if you want to continue receiving what you originally had.

keeper

10-26-06, 06:32 PM

Does the Samsung cover the full spectrum of free QAM?

TommyK

10-26-06, 06:38 PM

rittenjo

10-26-06, 09:39 PM

I stopped in my local bb again (Milwaukee) to see if they had anymore info on when they would receive the new tuner. They had finally put out their display model (just the case). That helped a lot. Now instead of them not having a clue as to what I'm talking about, I could walk them over to the display and ask "when will you have one for me to buy?"

Select BB stores in SE Wisconsin will be getting their shipment in Monday around noon!!!! I can't wait. I guess I was soo excited that I forgot to try and have one reserved for me. If I go there Monday and they're sold out I think I might cry right there in the store.

longhorns

10-26-06, 10:59 PM

First time poster in this thread, but i checked on BB.com and did a search for this model, found nothing, is this just cuz they didn't put it up there yet or what?

rittenjo

10-27-06, 10:46 AM

I don't think BB will be putting the new tuner on their website anytime soon. Some of the BB's carry the older version (SIR-T451) and yet you won't find that on their website either.

neo_jones

10-27-06, 12:22 PM

I visited my BB today in Mansfield, TX and was able to pick up one. There were still 2 on the shelf when i left.

Davinleeds

10-27-06, 02:01 PM

BB in my area said it's in their system but will be as a warehouse order in my area, but none at warehouse. PC Connection has pre-order status-2 weeks plus.

rittenjo

10-28-06, 06:23 PM

I finally picked up a tuner in Appleton, WI. It was the only one I was able to locate within 100 miles of my house. It was the last one they had and they were nice enough to put it on hold for me so I could drive almost an hour and a half to buy it.

Besides my wife, the girl at the register also thinks I'm a little crazy for driving that far to buy one. I was just glad to see that the "one" they said they had wasn't the demo version like my last endeavor.

I'm still setting it up, but so far it's an incredible introduction for me to over-the-air HDTV.

GraysonPeddie

10-29-06, 01:34 AM

Hi. Sometime during November, I might buy myself a 5th-Generation Samsung DTB-H260F from Best Buy and TERK HDTVLP Indoor / Outdoor TV and HDTV Antenna, hoping to get the best signal and for minimizing multipaths...

Since I am looking for a cheap ATSC receiver, isn't 5th-Generation ATSC receivers worth it? I'd love to keep up with latest in tech but I wanted to go cheap since I wanted to watch SD/HD stations.

I have a Magnavox 30" HDTV (NTSC only, even though purchased around first half of 2006) with a DVI (I have a Samsung HD860 DVD Player so since I have an HDMI>DVI, it's no big deal), if that helps.

moxie1617

10-29-06, 01:43 AM

You may not need 5th generation tech if you are close to your transmitters, can put up an outdoor antenna, or don't have to deal with multipath. If you can get a signal with a 1st gen tuner it won't look any better than what you see with a 5th gen tuner. The secret is you have to get a lock on the signal. That's were the 5th gen will help.

GraysonPeddie

10-29-06, 09:44 AM

biker19

10-29-06, 10:25 AM

This new tuner may help your situation - weak signal and trees are sometimes a problem. You should look up an antenna recommendation at antennaweb - if you are far from the transmitters even the best indoor antenna may not help.

GraysonPeddie

10-29-06, 11:15 AM

Yea--I used to have V-Box Cat's Eye USB HDTV Tuner Receiver with a rabbit-ear antenna, and it only picks up WFSU with subchannels.

What I'm trying to get is WTWC-DT (NBC) 27 miles away, WTLH (FOX, though not HD) 27 miles away, and WCTV-DT (CBS) 28 miles away but I used to get WFSU.

Here's the list:

("*" marked as DTV)

DTV Antenna
Type Call Sign Channel Network City State Live
Date Compass
Orientation Miles
From Frequency
Assignment
red - vhf WFSU 11 PBS TALLAHASSEE FL - 259° 18.3 11
* red - uhf WFSU-DT 11.1 PBS TALLAHASSEE FL - 259° 18.3 32
red - uhf WTLH 49 FOX BAINBRIDGE GA - 52° 27.0 49
* red - vhf WTWC-DT 40.1 NBC TALLAHASSEE FL - 52° 27.0 2
blue - uhf WTXL 27 ABC TALLAHASSEE FL - 53° 26.6 27
blue - uhf WTWC 40 NBC TALLAHASSEE FL - 52° 27.0 40
blue - uhf WTBC-LP 65 FMN TALLAHASSEE FL - 26° 4.9 65
blue - vhf WCTV 6 CBS THOMASVILLE GA - 55° 28.0 6
blue - uhf WVUP-CA 45 IND TALLAHASSEE FL - 20° 5.1 45
blue - uhf WBXT-CA 56 BOX TALLAHASSEE FL - 22° 5.2 56
blue - vhf WACX-LP 9 REL TALLAHASSEE FL - 56° 2.2 9
* blue - uhf WTLF-DT 24.1 CW TALLAHASSEE FL - 312° 8.0 24
* violet - uhf WCTV-DT 6.1 CBS THOMASVILLE GA - 55° 28.0 46
* violet - vhf WABW-DT 5 PBS PELHAM GA 07-08 55° 28.0 5

(Note that I was going to start a new thread but since I've mentioned DTB-H260F, I had to post it in here.)

WR2M

10-29-06, 11:24 AM

I was wondering if anyone has done a direct comparison between the new Samsung and the Pro Brand (Digital Stream) 3150PLUS sold by CC ? Currently I own LG 3150, LG3100, Samsung 351 and the Pro Brand PLUS . So far to date the PB seem to be the most sensitive at my location, especially on the low band channels. Channel 18 in Elmira NY has their HD broadcast on Low band channel 2. With the LG's I got frequent dropouts where the PB's appear to be more reliable. I am fairly new to all this and I have no idea what generation chip the lg's and PB's utilize.

I live 60 miles south east of Rochester NY and 50 miles SW of Syracuse NY so sensitivity is critical for my location. I use a Channel Master 3671 and a Antennas Direct 91XG and DB8 with a CM 7777 preamp. I have tried the older sammy 451 but returned it because I knew the newer version would be out in the near future. I have called all the BB in Northern NJ and Eastern PA and no one has the new sammy yet. Any reccomendations on where to get one would be appreciated.

Davinleeds

10-29-06, 11:47 AM

Like you, my PB 3150Plus is better than my LG, but not goood enough. I have a CM4228 and have tried other antenna with poor results. I have the Wineguard preamp U/Vhf. As stated above, online, I have only found PC Connection that's taking pre-orders. 2 weeks plus. Looks like it will be a Christmas present.

dmatch

10-29-06, 01:58 PM

Hi All,

Can anyone comment on the sound level of the new Samsung (DTB-H260F). The SIR-T451 that I have has way too low a sound level. While all sorts of other equipment require only about 10% volume I have to turn the volume to 70% and higher on the Samsung SIR-T451, and that's on a Samsung TV. Their FTA satellite receiver also suffered from a somewhat low volume level but not that low.

dmatch

dzinkin

10-29-06, 02:52 PM

Chuckkey

10-29-06, 03:36 PM

I just picked up one yesterday and it did not work, last one at BB in WLA. Measured the analog video out with a scope and it would put out sync with back porch burst for about 10 seconds and then nothing, power light still on. Course all of the BB's in West LA are out of stock...

Rammitinski

10-29-06, 04:03 PM

I live in apartments so I can't buy an outdoor antenna, but thanks anyway.

I live in an Alumni Village apartment with a whole lots of trees surrounding the apartment and had trouble getting signals with rabbit ears antenna like RadioShack 15-1880 (if I remember the brand and model of antenna correctly) and I only get one WFSU station, so I'll be getting a Terk antenna mentioned in my previous post.I find it really hard to believe that any indoor Terk model would outperform the 15-1880, but your luck may be different - especially if it's designed to also work outdoors.

All I can say is just make sure it's returnable.

aheno

10-29-06, 04:17 PM

I just spoke with a sales rep in the Magnolia section of the Best Buy in the San Francisco store. He said they're not stocking the tuner at that location, and doesn't expect it to show up in the near future. They're in stock in Stockton, CA and Santa Rosa, CA stores however. Last week they told me it was in stock in Sunnyvale as well, but this week Sunnyvale is sold out. :( This is very frustrating.

eldritch

10-29-06, 05:09 PM

So is there a final verdict on whether this unit is worth waiting for or not? The reactions on here appear to be mixed as to how it compares to other STBs. I went ahead and put one on order at PC Connection, but it is 2+ weeks out.

Eldritch

Davinleeds

10-29-06, 05:44 PM

Amazon preorder for less $. Nov 10-17 ship dates. If you find one sooner, cancel order.

hbrown

10-29-06, 06:12 PM

Amazon preorder for less $. Nov 10-17 ship dates. If you find one sooner, cancel order.

Are you talking about this listing on Amazon?

http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-DTB-H260F-HDtv-Terrestrial-Tuner/dp/B000JV6TQY/ref=sr_11_1/002-3508823-3390460

Something sounds wrong from the details and description...

"Technical Details

* 200 Disposable Paper Sandwich Containers
* Each measures 6" x 6" x 3"
* Also they have a back hinge and a front tab to keep it closed
* Great for any food establishment or just household food on the go
* These come case packed"

"Product Description
Here are 200 Disposable Paper Sandwich Containers. These are brand new, never used, and case packed. Each sandwich container measures 6" x 6" x 3", has a back hinge, and a front tab to keep it closed. These are great for any food establishment or just household food on the go. You will receive 200 of these..."

Yeah, good luck with that...

gadzby

10-29-06, 06:13 PM

Just stumbled onto this letter dated Sept. 25 from Samsung to the National Telecommunications and Information Administration, in regards to the U.S. transition to DTV. It provides a glimpse of where they are positioning the DTB-H260f, and a hint of what is still to come in 2007.

Samsung is fully committed to the U.S. transition to digital television. Samsung is the world’s leading manufacturer of televisions by market share, and we have the largest market share of digital televisions in the United States. We produce a wide variety of televisions with integrated digital tuners as well as digital set-top boxes. Next month, we will introduce the DTB-H260F ATSC digital set-top box, which incorporates the most advanced technology for receiving terrestrial digital television through an antenna—at a very moderate price. In 2007, we plan to introduce a lower-cost STB specifically for owners of legacy analog-only televisions, including those who will take advantage of the coupon program. These initiatives demonstrate our firm commitment to this market and to the digital transition.
Full text of the letter is here (http://www.ntia.doc.gov/otiahome/dtv/comments/dtvcoupon_comment0069.pdf#search='samsung%20DTBh260f').

Rick Raymo

10-29-06, 06:26 PM

Does anyone have a response to the Thumbs Up/Thumbs Down queries?
I know I can wait for a 30 day money-back location to have one in stock with no restocking fee... but that seems kind of anti intuitive after having spent so much time on these forums.
Grin.
OK. Can a few of you do a Pros/Cons list each? I could decide from that with no major hassle.
I find that most of my fellow members are trustworthy on goods that are below two Benjamins.
But, really? Does it have all the features you'd expect from a cheaper (which is good today--as they should be) box and still deliver cleanly and neatly and fairly quickly?
Any issues with the HDMI 1.2? VGA? Component? Colors seem on target? Clock feature work OK? Does it have enough memory to handle all your local HD options guides through tomorrow or just three hours?
Can it do a reasonable job upscanning or downrezzing your local ABC or CBS to use with your 720p or 1080i monitor or choice of resolutions? You know, the overall drill on an ATSC tuner, right?
Pros and Cons?
Thumbs up or down?
That's what we all pay each other so much for here.
Isn't it?

Davinleeds

10-29-06, 06:53 PM

Are you talking about this listing on Amazon?

http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-DTB-H260F-HDtv-Terrestrial-Tuner/dp/B000JV6TQY/ref=sr_11_1/002-3508823-3390460

Purpose was to inform. AS yours. As usual: buyer beware.

dzinkin

10-29-06, 07:45 PM

One thing my client reports as a difference from the SIR-T451: the menus won't display through the composite or S-video outputs at all, only through component and HDMI, and the manual also notes this limitation. When I called Samsung to ask how it would be configured on an analog-only TV, I was told that the recommended solution is to connect it to a HDTV monitor for configuration, then transfer it to the analog set -- and presumably pray that it never needs to be reconfigured. Er, no.

My client was going to use it primarily on his digital set, so it's not a tremendous problem, but it does mean that he can't take it to his vacation home where his TVs are analog only.

Rick Raymo

10-29-06, 08:59 PM

Davinleeds

10-29-06, 09:08 PM

Page 1, Like you I'm waiting for AVS member feedback. And if the new Autumn Wave STB will have additional(beyond the samsung) features like firewire.

eldritch

10-29-06, 09:08 PM

Like him or not, Peter Putnam notes a fair bit of good information on the DTB H260F (like this 5th Gen tuner pulls eight stations where his LG 4th gen only got 5.) He gives out wave-form and performance data, pictures, et al.

Nod. That article is the main reason I started looking into this unit in the first place. However, scientific tests and real world tests rarely coincide with each other IMO.

Eldritch

Pringals

10-29-06, 09:24 PM

It appears they are getting closer to a release... Here's a listing on B & H Foto & Electronics:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=details&kw=SADTBH260F&is=REG&Q=&O=productlist&sku=465585

...Now, if they can only make one like the old LG and include a DVR; then, I would be happy. It is so frustrating looking for these STB's. I only watch prime time TV, 7pm-11pm Central time (ABC,CBS, or NBC). So I, like many others, have no need for CATV or Satellite. Two years ago, I grabbed the last Accuran unit from the local Radio Shacks as an "intro to HDTV". Although I don't own a HDTV set yet, I love the improved picture quality and the surround sound. I had hoped to move up to a better quality STB, but before I knew it, they were becoming extinct.

I'm glad to see that Samsung hasn't forgot us "little people"who can't afford or justify a brand new TV purchase.

Davinleeds

10-29-06, 09:30 PM

Thanks, using notify when in stock.

eldritch

10-29-06, 09:38 PM

Thanks Pringals. I also signed up for stock notification.

Eld

PS- I love your sig :D

voltus_99

10-29-06, 10:55 PM

newbie here,
First mistake, bought one stb from ebay and when connect it to cable, it ask for pin code :(
contact comcast about it and they said they only activate the box if cust get them direct from comcast ....

After searching google, stumble on this thread and got one from atlanta area. Hook it up to my local comcast cable and able to pick up some channels. Problem is it also pick up many encrypted/weaksignal channel and have not figure out an easy way to weed/delete them out.

I subscribe to basic comcast channel and I have a vizio plasma with not tuner on it. Is there away to get the regular analog channel? this samsung is not showing any analog at all. QAM is not too bad if I can weed out encrypted channel so channel surfing is fun again.

I am thinking to go ahead and get STB from comcast so I can get more channels including analog etc.

m_vanmeter

10-30-06, 09:06 AM

biker19

10-30-06, 09:22 AM

Wow! what a bone head design decision:

"a difference from the SIR-T451: the menus won't display through the composite or S-video outputs at all"

I use an SIR-T451 to feed an older Sony 55" analog RPTV and the programming looks VERY good when feed by an S-Video cable. I was considering upgradeing to the new box to get the "better" receiver, but won't now. How can they possibly think this type of set top box will be a digital to analog converter box when the typical family buying it at the switch over in 2009 won't have a digital TV - that is the purpose of the STB ! Amazing lack of understanding of the market.
I assume that's what the "lower cost STB for analog market" unit next year will be for. That is a bad choice not to have at least the unit have composite output.

Pringals

10-30-06, 10:48 AM

WOW … it didn’t’ take long to find it’s way to ebay…
220042436330 (http://cgi.*********/SAMSUNG-HDTV-TUNER-HDMI-OUTPUT-NEW-PRODUCT-DTB-H260F_W0QQitemZ220042436330QQihZ012QQcategoryZ61396QQrdZ1QQc mdZViewItem)
His first listing attempt:
220041853111 (http://cgi.*********/SAMSUNG-HDTV-TUNER-HDMI-OUTPUT-NEW-PRODUCT-DTB-H260F_W0QQitemZ220041853111QQihZ012QQcategoryZ61396QQrdZ1QQc mdZViewItem)
I'm going to be heading to the local best buy tonight after work and see if they have it. Hopefully, with the recent remodeling work to include a "theater room", they should be getting them soon. ... Or should I wait and see if they make a DVR version? Does anyone have knowledge of a cheap DVR HDTV STB in the near future?

Rick Raymo

10-30-06, 11:58 AM

Wow! what a bone head design decision:

"a difference from the SIR-T451: the menus won't display through the composite or S-video outputs at all"

I use an SIR-T451 to feed an older Sony 55" analog RPTV and the programming looks VERY good when feed by an S-Video cable. I was considering upgradeing to the new box to get the "better" receiver, but won't now. How can they possibly think this type of set top box will be a digital to analog converter box when the typical family buying it at the switch over in 2009 won't have a digital TV - that is the purpose of the STB ! Amazing lack of understanding of the market.

Do you really think that the majority of stuff like this is an actual design decision? I fall into the camp that says that these goofballs didn't notice the mistake (ala Capcom shipping Dead Rising with unreadable fonts on an analog TV and refusing to patch it.)

They just didn't think to test for that rather large possible market segment on the menus. Bet.

oryan_dunn

10-30-06, 01:29 PM

I bet that it does output on composite and s-video. I don't have a unit, but iirc, the other samsung units will output the menu to composite and s-video only when the resolution switch is set to 480i. If it is anything higher, then the programming will still output over those outputs, but not the menus. Can anyone with the unit test this?

RubberToe

10-30-06, 02:03 PM

warit

10-30-06, 02:24 PM

Long-time lurker, first-time poster...

For what it's worth, the new tuner has made it to upstate NY -- one of my clients told me that the Best Buy in Henrietta (Rochester suburb) had a couple in stock today. He got one; no reports yet on how well it works for him.
I called my buddy in Rochester yesterday right after I read your post. They had four units coming in and at the time he went to the store, two were already gone. So there was another one on the shelf yesterday when he left (might be gone by now).

I just hooked it up during my lunch break today. So far this unis gives me the best reception comparing to the other three receivers I have (Moto HDT101, Fusion III PCI, and PHD-101).

I live in a first-floor apartment about 25+ miles from the stations and I'm using CM4221 (indoor). I have no dropout so far.

The only thing I don't like about this unit is that it doesn't have auto-ratio or separate memory for HD /SD ratio settings. Everytime you switch between HD / SD channel, you have to change the screen ratio in order to get the correct picture aspect ratio. Considering its performance, I guess I can live with it.

jfklennon

10-30-06, 02:49 PM

I would also like to formally second this request...

:)

I was hoping for the same thing, but this unit only displays graphics when connected via HDMI or componet. You can't even tell which channel your on when using the remote because NOTHING displays. I had to connect to my plasma just to set it up & scan for channels. this box does receive ota dtv much better than mr hr10. but as soon as the OTA is activated on my HR20 this babys going back to BB. :)

RubberToe

10-30-06, 03:06 PM

Maybe it actually doesn't output the menus on S-Video, only on the HD outputs. As per the above quote from Samsung, this is kind of a high-end tuner using their latest chipset. It must be targeted toward those that already have HD capable sets. The product that they are going to deliver in 2007 that is targeted at the old analog market I'll bet *will* output the menus on the S-Video output so the analog television users will be able to use it.

That does sort of make it unusable for someone with an analog TV looking for just an ATSC tuner that will drive their old TV...

Robert

oryan_dunn

10-30-06, 05:01 PM

Well, if it doesn't output the menus on the lower outputs, you could set the switch to 480i, and just hook up the luminance (Y) cable of the component signal to a composite input (B&W only) to set the unit up; that is if you could live without the channel and epg display. I still find it hard to believe it doesn't work with the resolution set to 480i. Is there a usb port or similar for future firmware upgrades?

WR2M

10-30-06, 06:47 PM

I purchased two units in the Rockaway NJ store this morning. I was told that the Brick NJ store also had stock along with Depford NJ and some stores in the Philly area.

Will be hooking them up later this week at my rural NY state home. Will do a direct comparison between the Pro Brand 3150PLUS, LG3150 and 3100. Will let group know results.

dino toes

10-30-06, 07:15 PM

I just picked up my DTB-H260F at my local BB in Northern VA. I went there yesterday and their computer registered two in inventory, but they couldn't find one in the warehouse. The units were officially scheduled to go out on the floor today. When I got there today I spoke with the same salesperson, and apparently they really had only one unit. The other was a fake display model.

Like many others I got it to improve the quality of my analog OTA picture. I don't have an HDTV, and I stopped getting cable TV because they just raised my rate to 50/month for basic cable, of which we watched only two channels that were not provided OTA.

About the unit. I can confirm that the On-Screen-Display does not work with the composite out, even using the 480i output setting. Pretty dumb choice if you ask me. Lucky for me I have a single TV with the Component input and that worked fine. You can't really use the unit without the OSD - you have no clue as to the channel you are watching and there is no way to setup the unit.

Also the unit does not scale some content to the 4:3 aspect ratio. The content that was already in 4:3 looked fine, but the other content would be this square box - with black bars on the left and right of the picture. It's certainly not very attractive. You can change the picture format to full, but then it drops some of the image on the top and bottom.

My next effort is to hook this thing up to my ReplayTV 5060. I tried it a little while ago, but ReplayTV unit does not understand OTA set top boxes. I called them and the don't support DTV even with set top boxes. Plus their suport group is extremely dumb and uneducated. (They kept saying the RTV does not support HDTV - I don't want HDTV, I want DTV via a set top box!) Ugh.

Man I love the picture (aside from the aspect ratio). Before the ATSC STB, I was I was getting multi-path ghosting even with my yagi directional antenna. Now it's just a crystal clear picture, and more channels to choose from (I get around 30 in our area - but not all are in use or english).

Davinleeds

10-30-06, 07:48 PM

For me, my hills, etc, it's purpose will be to handle multipath. What's the consensus? WR2M, I have the ProBrand, Let us know, better? Y/N ? Thanks.

jtbell

10-30-06, 08:42 PM

I visited the two BBs in Columbia SC today. Both stores had shelf-edge cards referring to the Samsung, on the shelf in the TiVo section. One had a display unit (empty case). Neither had any in stock.

spatiallight

10-31-06, 04:19 PM

Well I got the new Samsung tuner last night from my East side BB in Madison, WI.

My setup is: Component video (RGB) cabes and PCM audio (not Dolby Digital) with the switch set to 1080i.

CON:

I wish there were more Aspect ratios with the Samsung. You only get 3 choices but with the LG you get 5 plus the variable zoom. I like with the LG I can expand 4:3 broadcasts to take up the full screen. With the Samsung you have to live with the black bars on the sides if it is a non-HD broadcast.

PRO:
It's cheap. It's tiny. IMO it has as good, if not slightly better picture quality compared to the LG LST-4200A. It is not a big difference. I watched CSI:Miami, Leno, and Letterman and they look the same as on the LG. The menu system and guide seem fine but that stuff just doesn't matter to me. The antenna strength seems to actually work on this unit unlike the antenna strength on the LST-4200A. I use a big channelmaster above my garage so I can't can comment on if it pulls in signals any better than the LST-4200A. I still get all the same channels I had before. I will say that the tuner must be better because I can pull in more stuff via QAM over my cable feed than with the LST-4200A. Note - I have an A/B switch to get between cable and OTA. Also, please note that the Samsung unit doesn't get non-digital signals (VHF,UHF,etc.) like the LG-LST4200A did.

NOTE - I modified my original post becuase I'm an idiot. I forgot that my RPTV can't do 720p and that I must set the resolution to 1080i for my TV. Yes, 720p HDTV broadcasts DO take up the whole screen. Sorry for any confusion/misinformation I put out there earlier. In my defence I only had my Samsung for a day.

jtbell

10-31-06, 04:38 PM

I hate that I can't expand a 720P program to use the whole 1080i screen.

It doesn't re-scale 720p to 1080i when you use 1080i output? As far as I remember, the SIR-T451 does that (as well as in the opposite direction). I had that box hooked up to my 32" LCD for a while and there wasn't much difference in the picture, between the 720p and 1080i settings. It would be a real nuisance to have to flip the switch on the back when switching from CBS, PBS or NBC (1080i) to ABC or FOX (720p) or vice versa.

tadietz

10-31-06, 09:34 PM

CON:

I hate that I can't expand a 720P program to use the whole 1080i screen. I have a RPTV (Pioneer 64") and I get the black bars on the sides when I view a 720P broadcast in Full Screen mode. If I choose the next Aspect setting it zooms too far in and the image is cut off. With the LG I could click the Ratio button and it would expand it the signal to take up the whole 1080 screen. By expanding the 720P signal I don't accentuate the "burn in" in the middle of the screen. I already have the "burn in" bars on the left and right due to too much contrast and not expanding the signal in the past.

Ummm... not sure about your TV, but when I set the Menu Setup options to Screen Ratio 16:9 and Screen Format Full, all transmissions to my TV fill the screen, even 480i. Is this how you have your menu options set up?

On another front, has anyone else noticed how HOT this tuner gets? Doesn't seem to affect operation, but then I don't watch it more than 3-4 hours at a stretch.

Davinleeds

10-31-06, 09:42 PM

Over all, reception????

tadietz

10-31-06, 10:05 PM

Over all, reception????

If your asking how the unit's reception is, I use it with an indoor Radio Shack old school UHF/VHF amplified antenna. Works equally well over HDMI and Component and the picture quality seems excellent. I am 18 miles or so from the Austin HD broadcast towers of most local stations.

Davinleeds

10-31-06, 10:08 PM

Thanks! tadietz.
Anyone 40 plus with hills/trees?

Pringals

11-01-06, 12:18 AM

So... it seems a few of ya's have this thing now. Can you tell us what kind of range the remote has? Do you have to have it in direct line with the unit or does it reflect well?

RFontenot

11-01-06, 10:46 AM

My next effort is to hook this thing up to my ReplayTV 5060. I tried it a little while ago, but ReplayTV unit does not understand OTA set top boxes. I called them and the don't support DTV even with set top boxes. Plus their suport group is extremely dumb and uneducated. (They kept saying the RTV does not support HDTV - I don't want HDTV, I want DTV via a set top box!) Ugh.

Dino,

It is possible to hookup a Samsung settop box to an RTV. I do it today using a Samsung SIR-T351 via S-Video and I get DVD picture quality in full 16x9 on my 50" HDTV.

Using a settop box without an OSD would actually be a benefit in this application because the RTV controls the unit via it's IR blaster so the settop's OSD is actually a distraction.

The T351 and T451 both do one thing that is very important: They let you select an HD channel using just the major channel number rather than requiring you to input both the major and minor numbers. This is important because the RTV only sends the major number when changing channels. In other words, if you select channel "8", the 260 should tune to channel "8.1". If you have to input "8.1", then you can't use this settop with the RTV.

Both the T351 and T451 used the same IR codes as the Samsung DirectTV receiver. I use code 1276. You configure these settops as though you were configuring a Samsung DirecTV receiver, including the program guide. The RTV program guide for DirecTV will have your local channels, but you will delete all the other DirectTV channels. If you can't configure the 260 to work the same way, then you'll need to get a T451 instead.

Assuming the 260 works, you need to hook the 260 to something that lets you see the OSD so you can configure the output display. You want to set the Screen Ratio to 4:3, since the RTV only records in 4:3. If you are viewing primarily on a 16:9 TV, set the Screen Format to Full. If you are viewing on both 4:3 and 16:9 TVs, set the Screen Format to Letterbox. The Full format compresses the 16:9 display horizontally to 4:3. On playback, you'll need to change the aspect ratio on your TV to expand it back out. This is the best setting for picture quality. The Letterbox format allows the display to have the proper aspect ratio on both 4:3 and 16:9 TVs. You'll need to zoom the picture on a 16:9 TV to fill the screen.

I hope this works, because my T351 tends to lose the HD signal if I don't periodically power cycle it. Nothing more aggravating than sitting down to watch a show and seeing "No Signal" instead. I'm hoping the 260 is a good option.

RF

DonB2

11-01-06, 03:02 PM

ikeisaacks

11-01-06, 03:03 PM

BB on I-25 and Colorado Blvd. After buying one unit they still have 5 more in stock as of today @12:30.
Going to hookup and see how well the 260 works in Parker.

DonB2

11-01-06, 03:27 PM

I just went to a BB in Durham NC and they basically did not know what I was even talking about and could not even bring up the new Samsung let alone the old 451 STB on their computer.

-DonB2

dtvinfo

11-01-06, 04:07 PM

I just visited the BB in Oklahoma City this afternoon and they did not have any in stock, but I did manage to get the BB SKU#8102796 If you take that number, they can find that Samsung STB in their system. It was funny that they had 4 in stock in Arkansas that is a new store that isn't even open yet. I inquired why, and the floor manager said that BB was deploying these boxes in markets that don't offer HD service on cable.

Steve

DonB2

11-01-06, 05:13 PM

RFontenot

11-01-06, 09:14 PM

I thought the issue that cable operators must carry local broadcast HDTV signals was settled, but it turns out it's NOT settled, and both the broadcasters and cable companies are still fighting over this important issue.

The FCC, Congress, and the Supreme Court have ruled that cable operators must carry local broadcast signals. Seems simple, but it's not. Cable companies say the rules don't force them to carry both of the local broadcasters analog and digital signals during the transition. The cable operators also say they don't have to carry all the new minor digital channels from local broadcasters, nor do they have to carry the full HDTV signal from a local broadcaster. According to the cable companies, the rules allow them to downgrade an HD signal to standard definition. Understandably, the local broadcasters don't agree.

To make things even more complicated, the rules allow the local broadcasters to give the cable company one of two must carry ultimatums:

Option 1: You must carry my signal at no cost to me.
Option 2: You must pay me to carry my signal, otherwise you can't.

The first option works great for small local broadcasters, the second works great for the big local broadcasters.

Under either option, the cable companies must transmit the local broadcasters digital signal unencrypted. However, you can't connect an OTA HDTV tuner to cable and get a picture. HDTV is broadcast over the air and through cable using different modulation schemes.

Here's some info I found on QAM and HDTV:

Cable uses 256 QAM (quadrature amplitude modulation) to form the digital bitstream in the cable. Broadcast HDTV uses 8VSB (vestigial side band) to form the waves in the air. Each method works perfectly for its transmission environment (e.g., error correction), but the two modulation schemes are incompatible.

So it seems the only way to be sure you can get all of the digital channels offered by your local broadcasters is to either get an OTA settop or a TV with both CableCard and ATSC digital tuners built in.

RF

At40fanforlife

11-01-06, 09:26 PM

I've tried calling 7-9 BestBuy stores here in Los Angeles Area (Pasadena) and no one could tell where I could get the Samsung DTB H2060F.

Anyone who could help please PM. Thanks!

Rammitinski

11-02-06, 03:53 AM

dtvinfo ,

"deploying these boxes in markets that don't offer HD service on cable. "

HMMM my market has the free digital stations available over QAM cable for basica cable service per month, maybe that is why I can't get a Samsung locally.

Maybe the TWC wants you to buy QAM capable equipment from them only.

I sure do not like that marketing approach.

DonB2No - Best Buy wants you to get Direct or Comcast through them.

From my experiences with them, I'm not surprised at all to hear of this ploy. They will do everything to avoid mentioning anything about OTA. When I act dumb they always, without fail, tell me I "need" to subscribe to Direct or Comcast to get HD.

This seems to be standard procedure (at least) at the Best Buy in my area.

Chuckkey

11-02-06, 10:09 AM

Check your PM mail

TommyK

11-02-06, 06:23 PM

BB on I-25 and Colorado Blvd. After buying one unit they still have 5 more in stock as of today @12:30.
Going to hookup and see how well the 260 works in Parker.
Thanks, I'm going to head there now.

Dennis Nicholls

11-02-06, 06:26 PM

The link above for purchasing the Samsung DTB-H260F at Amazon has been fixed. Price $163 but no information about when they are actually going to get it in stock.

Davinleeds

11-02-06, 07:54 PM

BB on I-25 and Colorado Blvd. After buying one unit they still have 5 more in stock as of today @12:30.
Going to hookup and see how well the 260 works in Parker.

What's the verdict?

TommyK

11-02-06, 08:21 PM

BB on I-25 and Colorado Blvd. After buying one unit they still have 5 more in stock as of today @12:30.
Well, two DTB H2060F cartons were sitting right on the shelf at the I-25 BB. I grabbed them both, but one of the boxes felt lighter. I opened it and pulled out the contents. Like other stores mentioned in this thread, this BB also still had the empty-shell display model all packed up, ready to be sold. I showed the rep and put it on a nearby display table for him. He thanked me and said he's glad they didn't sell it.

I asked him if he had any more real ones in stock. He checked. They did, one more. I bought them both.

I get off work at 10:30 tonight. Will set one of them up then and check it out.

Davinleeds

11-02-06, 11:38 PM

TommyK; Looking forward to it.

darrellk12

11-03-06, 09:10 AM

Ummm... not sure about your TV, but when I set the Menu Setup options to Screen Ratio 16:9 and Screen Format Full, all transmissions to my TV fill the screen, even 480i. Is this how you have your menu options set up?

On another front, has anyone else noticed how HOT this tuner gets? Doesn't seem to affect operation, but then I don't watch it more than 3-4 hours at a stretch.

Good morning. My 260 runs quite cool to the touch after several hours of operation. If yours is running "hot" to the touch something might be wrong. Are you allowing plenty of air circulation around the unit? BTW, I love this little tuner, it performs a little better than my $600 Intergra IT912 HDTV receiver!! I recently installed 2 horizontally mounted Terrestrial Digital 91XG Uni-Directional HDTV Antennas. They work great. :) I receive all channels from Kansas City, Mo(90 miles) and all channels from Columbia, Mo (60 miles) Using a rotator of course. As soon as I can afford it, I am going to add an AR2 communications .4db preamp($400.00)

Regards
Darrell

RFontenot

11-03-06, 09:57 AM

Do you have to use major.minor numbers when changing channels or can you just input the major number? In other words, can you just press "8" to get "8.1".

RF

hbrown

11-03-06, 12:14 PM

http://www. o n e c a l l .com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=34596

If you have to have it now.

Olevia37HD

11-03-06, 12:37 PM

Samsung and their new low-cost over-the-air ATSC tuner - DTB-H260F (http://w.engadgethd.com/2006/07/21/samsung-and-their-new-low-cost-over-the-air-atsc-tuners-dtb-h2/)

Over-the-air ATSC tuners can be pricey right now; with the exception of Radio Shack's cheap guy. Part of the reason is that not many manufacturers make one so competition is low. Samsung is one of the few companies that do in fact make these set-top boxes and they are moving to low cost tuners this fall. The DTB-H260F is going to retail for a low, low price of $179. While that isn't as cheap as we would like to see them, ($50-$75 range) it's a start. The analog switch-off is still a few years away and so we are willing to bet the farm that they will drop to that price eventually. This set-top box is a great value though compared to its older brother - SIR-T451. The newer one sports a HDMI port with an electronic programming guide. Not to shabby for $179.

I don't know about low price!!! :eek:

jgabby

11-03-06, 02:35 PM

Can someone with one of the new h260f boxes pull the lid off and post the manufacturer and part number of the demodulator chip? I am very interested in which demodulator is being used, and I think the only way we'll know for sure (not anecdotal stuff like getting new signals) is to look at the part numbers.

Davinleeds

11-03-06, 05:35 PM

iksaacks, TommyK ????

anthandle

11-03-06, 07:04 PM

I just went to the local Best Buy and they were out with no expected date, but they were able to look at the other stores inventories and have one tranfered up to my local store :) . They make you prepay but you still have the 30 day return policy.

So, if your local BB is out have them check all the other stores and transfer one. They said it will take up to a week to transfer from a store 45 miles away.

Good luck,

Anthandle

kas3arak

11-03-06, 10:34 PM

blackout187

11-04-06, 01:09 AM

Hello
i just got one yesterday evening from circuit city store in San Rafael Ca, and hooked it up right away.
i have cable from Comcast without a box, i wanted to use this box instead but the funny thing is that it got some (not all) HD channels but none the SD regular channels.
on the other hand my TV a Samsung 50" DLP 1080p (HL-S5087W) with built in tuner can get the regular SD channels but not the HD channels from Comcast

any ideas of what the problem might be ?

many thanks in advance

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but the reason you can't watch SD channels on the samsung dtb-h260f is because it only has an ATSC tuner...which is a digital tuner...the analog SD channels require an NTSC tuner

The Samsung 50" DLP can get the regular SD probably cuz it has an ntsc tuner...however it sounds like it isn't a QAM tuner and therefore can't descramble most if not all of your HD channels through Comcast.

ekb

11-04-06, 10:36 AM

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong but the reason you can't watch SD channels on the samsung dtb-h260f is because it only has an ATSC tuner...which is a digital tuner...the analog SD channels require an NTSC tuner

The Samsung 50" DLP can get the regular SD probably cuz it has an ntsc tuner...however it sounds like it isn't a QAM tuner and therefore can't descramble most if not all of your HD channels through Comcast.
I'm correcting you - the H260F apparently does include a QAM tuner, although Samsung doesn't make that very clear. By SD, kas3arak does mean digital SD over cable. (Technically analog is not SD. SD is only digital.) He gets one set of digital QAM channels over his TV and another set over the H260F - is there any overlap kas3arak? I have no idea why this should be - I guess we've heard that not all QAM tuners are the same.

Ed

ikeisaacks

11-04-06, 11:55 AM

I live near Parker, Co., and after several days of working/testing the 260, I find that it works beyond my expectations. Being in the business of television communications I have connected a Blonder Tongue BTY-UHF-BB and an Terk 55 I've had for years just laying around.
Also used a Channel Master rotator. I can receive every channel that AntennaWeb org lists except one up in Idaho Springs. Even ones from Colorado Springs.

Using a 492 Tektronixs SpecAn, signal levels with the UHF BT are in the low-55dbm range up to -25dbm for the closer channels. Picture quality on everything from 1080p down to 480i looks great on my 46' Sony RP HDTV.

I now use the BT exclusively as the Terk 55 generates too much noise in the amp section. Even the VHF side of the Terk isn't that good.

I'll leave it up in the air for now. Also connected to Comcast cable and it picks up nearly 40 more channels in QAM. Again picture quality looks great from Cable.

Video levels on composite are exactly 140IRE, perfect with no high frequency rolloff, same for S-video and HDMI decoding is right on.

OK, it doesn't show the menu's or channel number on the analog output and the switch is on the rear for P/I selection, but for the price you'd be foolish not to grab one now.
I had a Samsung 451 from the station here at home for awhile and this unit's receiver blows that one away.
Buy one.

kas3arak

11-04-06, 04:12 PM

Thanks Ted
no i have no exception, i get no SD channels at all from comcast via the 260, only HD and again not all of them mainly local ones (ABC,CBS,NBC AND PBS) since i can not see ESPN HD or TNT HD i think it is a matter of scrambling, but if it is the case why the TV can see all the SD channels.
the gentelman from colorado said he got about 45 channels from Comcast that most of them are SD i think, i wish he can let us know

by the way when the 260 scans for channels it finds about 377 and it lists them in the channel manager but of course only a handfull of them are viewable
also the channel count jump from 11 to 68 nothing in between register at all (not even in the channel manager)

thanks again
Kas

WR2M

11-04-06, 05:48 PM

Hello All,

Recently I did a lot of experimenting with some of the HDTV set top boxes, some models are current, and some are discontinued. I am a licensed Amateur Radio Operator since 1987 so I have a good grasp on RF propagation, antennas, and receiver performance. I hope this post helps some people make a decision on the Samsung DTB-H260F.

These are my working conditions. I tested this Samsung DTB-H260F unit from my Burdett NY cottage. Burdett is 7 miles north of Watkins Glen NY on the east side of Seneca Lake. Elevation is about 1450 feet above sea level. From this location Elmira NY is my closest TV station (30 air miles) channel 18 analog, channel 2 digital. My second market is Rochester NY (60 air miles) and third Syracuse (50 air miles). I run 4 different antennas. My configuration is as follows I have a CM 3671 top center on a rotator about 30 feet high. The Antennas Direct 91XG fixed at Rochester directly below, and an Antennas Direct DB8 aimed at Syracuse below that. In addition I have a RS VX160 (not positive on the RS model number) on a different telephone pole about 25 feet high on a rotator typically aimed at Elmira NY. All the antennas have independent CM 7777 pre amps except for the RS, which has a RS preamp. Indoors I have an A/B/C switch to select antennas.

In the past year I have experimented with LG-3150, LG-3100, Samsung T351, Pro Brand 3150PLUS I have to say that the LG's were terrible on low band channels compared to the Pro Brand 3150 PLUS. In my area this is important because Rochester has 2 networks that are going back to their original channels on 10 and 13. Binghamton NY currently has 2 non UHF channels and Elmira is currently operating their NBC channel 18 on channel 2 at low power so the low band and VHF sensitivity is critical to me

When testing I rotated the antenna to create multi path and switching in attenuation. I was able to determine limits where the receivers would operate. There was a difference on UHF when I had multiple receivers hooked up simultaneously off a 4 output distribution box, but not as dramatic as the low band and VHF stations. Until my most recent test I was sold on the Pro Brand 3150 PLUS. I felt that the PB was the most sensitive across the board, granted my LG’s are from different generations.

In my final test this week I hooked up the Pro Brand 3150 PLUS and the Samsung DTB-H260F into my AKAI PDP4225M plasma into two of the inputs and ran it in the split screen mode. Again I rotated the antenna and discovered that when the PB lost its signal and started freezing and pixilating the Samsung kept playing, my antenna traveled an extra 5 degrees in either direction before he Samsung lost its signal. Don’t forget that these channels I was testing on are 60 air miles away so 10 degrees is substantial and the CH3671 has a sharp pattern. On my local digital channel 2 (30 miles) in Elmira the limits were much more dramatic making it almost impossible to loose this station. This is where the Samsung really shined. One other discovery I made while testing on my Antennas Direct DB8 bow tie antenna with the Syracuse channels I discovered that DTB-H260F was picking up a PBS channel I have never seen before. It was now picking up Corning stations off the back of the antenna. For me to pick up this channel with the PB I had to be pointed directly at it with my CM3671.

Another observation when the AKAI PDP4225M and the PRO Brand 3150PLUS were hooked up together there was an intermittent audio distortion. The distortion was only present if the PB was fed into the monitor via HDMI, if I ran it through the component or composite it was fine, The only way I could fix the problem was to toggle through inputs and reselect HDMI and the distortion might go away, its was a 50/50 thing. I exchanged 3150plus two times and swapped out the HDMI cable so I assumed it was my AKAI monitor. After feeding the Samsung into my monitor’s HDMI port I was pleasantly surprised not to have the same audio issue. In reading on avsforum I saw that another person had the same monitor with the PB receiver and experienced the same problem. So I must think its some type of compatibility issue.

In my option the Samsung DTB-H260F had an edge over the Pro Brand 3150 PLUS on UHF, and a much bigger edge on the low band and VHF frequencies. The Samsung has a great channel guide. The PB’s channel guide was nice too and might have even loaded faster, but the Samsung’s reminded me a lot of the guide I get on my Dish network receiver. Also, the Samsung has the ability to schedule programming in advance with a single click of the remote. I am not sure if the PB is capable of this or not. I really like the signal strength meter on the PB it came in very handy while aligning the antennas. The PB gave you a bar graph in conjunction with a meter that read out from zero to 100 percent and displaying signal to noise ratio simultaneously. The Samsung only has a bar graph meter. The Samsung only displays the menus and user interface on the HDMI and component output, on the PB all outputs are always active. This is not critical to me since all my TV’s are HDTV and will only be fed through HDMI or component port.

The PB has a great feature to update your channel list without erasing the channels you currently have in memory. This is very handy when you have signals coming in from different directions. Unfortunately with the Samsung after you do your initial scan there is no provision to do an update to add channels in from a different directions. In this case so you must enter it into the receiver manually, not a big deal but you need to need to know the rf frequency so you could keyboard it in, once its in its in. Maybe in the future they could upgrade this with a software upgrade?? I hope so but I wont hold my breath.

I closing, I hope this information help you male a decision. I have no interest in any of the companies, this is strictly a hobby for me, Enjoy!!

Davinleeds

11-04-06, 07:18 PM

Great post. Same situation. LG 3150 -nope. PB 3510-current usage but not good enough. CM 4228 antenna but anything below 18 snr the PB has trouble pulling in.

tonyhardee

11-04-06, 09:33 PM

I purchased my H260 from the local BB here in Maryland. I went to 3 different BB stores and finally the 3rd one had 2 in stock. For those of you in Maryland, the White Marsh store has 1 left. Other BB stores in this area have some in stock but the stores that have them only have 1 in stock. I saw the computer screen when the sales guy looked up the SKU code.

Anyway, after playing with it for a few days I am totally satisfied. The picture is great and steady. This is compared to my Humax HFA100. The reciever was hooked to a Panasonic AE900 HD projector viewing on a 101 inch screen. I had the HFA in my basement and I have always had trouble with multipath signals because I only live about 13-15 miles from the source yet I had trouble maintaining a signal. The signal would constantly drop out. I was still having trouble locking in a channel even after upgrading from a cheap Terk indoor antenna to a DB4 bow tie. The Humax had a great picture but it just would not lock in on a channel. I also have multiple thick rows of huge trees between the source and my antenna.

After hooking up the H260, I tuned into a channel after auto programming and the picture was rock steady. After a couple of days now I have had no problems with drop outs. The H260 has locked on to every channel I have watched so far again with no drop outs. Another bonus is that it found more stations then the Humax. I can now choose from multiple NBC, CBS stations. The best part is the Samsung found the extra stations and has had no problems locking in with using only the Terk indoor antenna. I did not even have to hook up the DB4. I am now using the Humax and DB4 on a smaller TV in another room.

I am totally happy and thinking about going back and getting the last one at the BB store by my house in White Marsh to replace my Humax. Hope this helps some of you to make your decision.

The only weird thing is with the guide. I don't know if it's a software bug or what but when viewing the guide and a particular channel does not have any info listed, (the listing says, "no information available"), I am unable to select that channel via the guide. I have to select it through the channel list. Has anyone else noticed this problem.

On a side note:
I want to thank everyone here who posts reviews of equipment because this site helped me enormously 6 or 8 months ago when I was trying to make a decision on what HD projector, screen and audio reciever to buy. Thanks again.

gadzby

11-04-06, 11:09 PM

Finally found a DTB-H260F in the metro Bay Area this afternoon (Circuit City Daly City). They had one connected to an HD display and another still NIB, which I bought. The Circuit City San Mateo also had one in stock earlier this afternoon. Eager to try it out - it'll be replacing an old Zenith HD-SAT520.

Regarding the VSB chip utilized in this product, I heard a report it's from ATI.

blackout187

11-05-06, 12:38 AM

joesosilly

11-05-06, 02:27 AM

I just purchased one earlier today and im pleased with the results. if anyone is interested in picking this up locally in socal, best buy had 7 in stock at their orange location.

tenthplanet

11-05-06, 04:23 AM

I bought one of these at BB in Woodland Hills in Los Angeles a couple of weeks ago. I spotted the blue box amongst some new cartons and didn't recognize the number. I asked to see the manual, and realized this was the replacement to the SIR-451. I found out if was 180.00 dollars and I bought it( I must have gotten the first one as they didn't even have one on display yet. Pulls in about all DTV signals from about 22 miles or so (where the towers are) and does it using a non-amplified indoor antenna. Did find out the QAM section pulled in a certain adult cable channel in the clear( don't buy one counting on this working! It may be a fluke). The QAM section pulls in HD locals fine off of cable.
I can now watch Smallville with a good clean widescreen picture. Even if it's downconverted an HD digital signal trounces analog. High value to price ratio. Very pleased with unit.

dmatch

11-05-06, 09:43 AM

The only weird thing is with the guide. I don't know if it's a software bug or what but when viewing the guide and a particular channel does not have any info listed, (the listing says, "no information available"), I am unable to select that channel via the guide. I have to select it through the channel list. Has anyone else noticed this problem.

Hi Tony,

The Samsung SIR-T451 is the same way. Too bad they didn't do something about that with this new receiver. It is a little irritating.

dmatch

gadzby

11-05-06, 11:15 AM

Gadzby,

Just letting you know in case you didn't notice...I sent you a PM
Responded to your PM.

Chuckkey

11-05-06, 03:14 PM

Stb 260

Davinleeds

11-05-06, 03:33 PM

Circuit City online-replaces the Pro Brand.

TommyK

11-05-06, 10:48 PM

My initial impression of the DTB-H260F:

I was a bit startled at how effortlessly it receives channels. I live in what might be described as a multipath quagmire, the central area of Denver and its tallest buildings. I have no direct line of sight to any of our digital transmitters and many a wall and other buildings in the way. Earlier LG and Samsung receivers I've used could pull in many of our low power stations, but only with careful antenna positioning and usually only one station per antenna position.

The arduous "game of inches" regarding antenna positioning has now become irrelevant with this new unit. Both my Silver Sensor and Square Shooter antennas bring in everything with ease, including some additional digital signals I was unable to get before.

I originally wanted the DTB-H260F for its QAM capabilities, but that too has now become irrelevant. This thing handles OTA so well, who needs cable for digital signals?

As more folks weigh in with their experiences, no doubt "results may vary" may become the overall consensus. But for my particular application, these little DTB-H260F units are quite remarkable.

Chuckkey

11-06-06, 09:41 AM

Uses the ATI 240H chip from last year. The newer 260H chip samples from ATI were released to manufacturers 9/2/2006.

jgabby

11-06-06, 12:47 PM

Uses the ATI 240H chip from last year. The newer 260H chip samples from ATI were released to manufacturers 9/2/2006.

Great, thanks for posting the picture Chuckkey. So it does not use the Gemini chip that got the rave reviews by CRC... I'm a little disappointed, I really wanted to try the Gemini. My apartment is a crazy multipath environment that my 5th Gen LG receiver can't handle, so I figure it must be dynamic, which the Gemini excels at.. Oh well...

What does the little red button near the top of the green circuit board do?

gadzby

11-06-06, 01:24 PM

Uses the ATI 240H chip from last year. The newer 260H chip samples from ATI were released to manufacturers 9/2/2006.
Thanks for looking that up. Here is some product info on these two chips:

ATI Xilleon 240S and 240H (http://ati.amd.com/products/xilleon240sh/index.html)
ATI Xilleon 260 (http://ati.amd.com/products/xilleon260/index.html)

From this it would appear the main difference is the 260 supports worldwide DTV standards, while the 240 is ATSC DTV only. Are there other improvements?

I was surprised to see the ATI chip contains an NTSC decoder also. Wish Samsung had enabled that feature in their product. This would have allowed users to carry all NTSC/ATSC cable (or OTA) channels from the H260F to the display on only one input (e.g. either HDMI or component). As my setup stands now, I can decode all unencrypted digital cable channels in the H260F and drive my display with HDMI - great! But since the H260F does not decode NTSC, I need to use a second display input (RF in) to view analog cable signals. For most viewing I use the HDMI input. But for those channels whose digital cable signals are encrypted (such as ESPN, Headline News), the display input must be switched to RF in to view the analog equivalent.

holl_ands

11-06-06, 03:18 PM

Stb 260
Unfortunately, cannot make out the part numbers on the huge ATI XILLION chip, the ALPS "tin-can" tuner or the SQUARE chip (maybe a separate ATSC Decoder???) right next to it.

Since jpeg's are limited to 800x600, it would help if you could resubmit just the cropped region in the vicinity of the huge ATI Display chip (and the two nearby PROMs) and vicinity of the "tin-can" tuner/square chip.

Alternatively, you could simply repost the original hi-rez photo as a zip file to circumvent the 800x600 rule....

Of course, this presumes that you remembered to enable macro mode on your camera when you took the photo....

DonB2

11-06-06, 04:15 PM

"The DTB-H260F is going to retail for a low, low price of $179"

Is this what the Samsung is being sold for?

-DonB2

spatiallight

11-06-06, 04:30 PM

Spatalight,

"I still get all the same channels I had before. I will say that the tuner must be better because I can pull in more stuff via QAM over my cable feed than with the LST-4200A. Note - I have an A/B switch to get between cable and OTA. Also, please note that the Samsung unit doesn't get non-digital signals (VHF,UHF,etc.) like the LG-LST4200A did."

1. pull in more stuff via QAM - seriously? I guess I thought you would get whatever a cable company was offering over QAM that was not scrambled

2. I have an A/B switch to get between cable and OTA. - do you have to do channel search all over again when you swap between OTA and Cable?

3. Samsung unit doesn't get non-digital signals (VHF,UHF,etc.) like the LG-LST4200A did." - Did your LG seemlessly merge the ATSC and NTSC together so you could channel up and down through all of them?

Thanks,

-DonB2
DonB2:

#1
To be specific, I get more Porn channels than with the LG. I still get everything else (QAM) I had with the LG but I also get some weaker channels that the LG never pulled in (via cable). I agree with your thinking but I'm telling you what I'm seeing.

#2
Unfortunately, the Samsung doesn't have the Channel Add or whatever it is called on the LG. Basically, the function that allows you to scan for new channels to ADD to your existing channels. I've messed around with the Samsung and it doesn't appear to allow that. With the Samsung you have to do a full rescan and start over. All your favorites and everything is wiped clean.

#3
I'll do my best to answer your question but what I'm meant was the LG tuned my local channels 3,15,21,27,47,57 then it scanned the digital channels 3-1,3-2,15-1, etc. So I could watch the OTA broadcast of channel 3 on channel 3 or digital 3-1. The Samsung only tunes the digital channels 3-1,3-2,15-1,etc. Is that more clear? Yes, I could surf up the channels from 3,15,....,3-1,3-2,15-1,.... but my feeling on that is why would you watch an VHF/UHF broadcast when you could watch the same thing with a better picture over the digital channel.

DonB2

11-06-06, 04:41 PM

Having included ATSC would have been a nice feature on the Samsung.

I see that the HD Radios all do both digital and analog. I don't quite understand why HD ATSC tuners didn't also do ATSN and NTSC as standard issue.

-DonB2

gadzby

11-06-06, 05:08 PM

Having included ATSC would have been a nice feature on the Samsung.
You intended to say NTSC here, yes?

Regarding the question of whether rescanning is necessary if an external A/B switch is used to select between cable and OTA input, the answer is no. The unit allows you to scan and save cable and OTA channels separately. Each time you throw the A/B switch, use the 'Antenna' remote button to switch the H260F's RF input mode accordingly.

That said, so far I have found no reason to keep my OTA connection along with cable. All the channels available to me OTA are also available on the cable unencrypted (plus more).

DonB2

11-06-06, 05:09 PM

spatiallight ,

Thanks for the answers!!

-DonB2

DonB2

11-06-06, 05:11 PM

gadzby ,

Ha Ha yes I meant NTSC not ATSC, thanks for catching that.

DonB2

Davinleeds

11-06-06, 05:44 PM

pekkle

11-06-06, 05:58 PM

moxie1617

11-06-06, 06:30 PM

Which 5 th gen LG chip receiver do you have - so we can compare. The Samsung is 5th and seems to handle multipath well. Thanks.

I thought the only STB's that had 5th gen LG chips were the DirecTv boxes. No stand alone with the LG brand had the 5th gen chip.

Davinleeds

11-06-06, 07:43 PM

This thread??? Autumn Air , Divco pc cards, usb tuners.

Davinleeds

11-06-06, 09:30 PM

CC: out of stock,on line. Popular.

moxie1617

11-06-06, 11:03 PM

Question for those of you with the 260:

When I bring up the guide, it freezes up until it is able to load all the channel information. Usually this takes 4-5 seconds and I have to wait before anything is responsive -- even the current channel window is blank and the audio drops out. Once the guide information loads, this happens again if I try to scroll in either direction.

Is anyone else experiencing this issue? Do I have a defective unit?

The unit has to scan all the channels in the guide in order to bring up the program info. I think the only STB that performed well in this area was the Humax. I have the RS Accurian and it takes at least 30 secs to bring up the guide. While you wait you see nothing but a "Please Wait" message. If no guide data is being sent by the station it takes even longer. You should hear me when I hit the damn thing by mistake. A 5 sec response for the program guide sounds great to me. Hopefully you'll hear from other owners.

gadzby

11-06-06, 11:58 PM

CC: out of stock,on line. Popular.
That's unfortunate it's out of stock already. The component out seems to have gone south on my unit. It was working fine until tonight, then the picture went green. HDMI out still works ok.

GraysonPeddie

11-07-06, 01:01 AM

Same for me.

Tallahassee
Approx: 6 miles from my apartment (32310)
Out of stock

My mom will probably be getting it for me for Christmas, so it looks like I will have to let Circuit City notify me about stock availability.

inky blacks

11-07-06, 02:12 AM

http://www.saveateagle.com/usbhdtv-gt-v52.html?ovchn=OTHER&ovcpn=Froogle&ovcrn=USBHDTV-GT-V52&ovtac=CMP

Which is better, the Samsung or the AUTUMN WAVE HDTV TUNER which has the 5th generation LG chip?

What chip does the Samsung use? Is it their own design?

IB

GraysonPeddie

11-07-06, 02:36 AM

Seeing that the OTA HDTV tuner you've linked is a USB OTA HDTV tuner, other than 5th-generation chip, I don't think I can compare it between a USB OTA HDTV tuner and OTA HDTV STB...

However, if you wanted to talk about 5th-generation chips, I'd like to suggest you start a new thread since this thread is mainly about Samsung DTB-H260F ATSC Tuner.

Chuckkey

11-07-06, 10:21 AM

Great, thanks for posting the picture Chuckkey. So it does not use the Gemini chip that got the rave reviews by CRC... I'm a little disappointed, I really wanted to try the Gemini. My apartment is a crazy multipath environment that my 5th Gen LG receiver can't handle, so I figure it must be dynamic, which the Gemini excels at.. Oh well...
Dont know what happened to Gemini. I surmise the ATI has a faster processor and more integration. I was disappointed seeing I met Samsungs design team on that chip and was told by them it would be out this fall.

ATI seems to have some great engineering people there. I would not doubt that it does better than the Zenith chip.

I almost pushed the button, I'm sure a reset. Did not want to kill the box though. They are out of stock in LA right now and calling Samsung Customer Service would not be good.

Rammitinski

11-07-06, 02:30 PM

I have the RS Accurian and it takes at least 30 secs to bring up the guide. While you wait you see nothing but a "Please Wait" message. If no guide data is being sent by the station it takes even longer. You should hear me when I hit the damn thing by mistake. A 5 sec response for the program guide sounds great to me.

When you press the "guide" button on the Accurian's remote, after you've waited about 5-10 seconds, press the "exit" button and the guide will come up with the info sooner than if you just wait for it to do it on it's own (which DOES seem like forever - I know - I've got one :rolleyes: ). The trick is waiting just long enough, because if it's too soon, the info will not be there yet.

(Sorry to get off track there - just trying to help.)

spatiallight

11-07-06, 03:35 PM

moxie1617

11-07-06, 04:01 PM

When you press the "guide" button on the Accurian's remote, after you've waited about 5-10 seconds, press the "exit" button and the guide will come up with the info sooner than if you just wait for it to do it on it's own (which DOES seem like forever - I know - I've got one :rolleyes: ). The trick is waiting just long enough, because if it's too soon, the info will not be there yet.

(Sorry to get off track there - just trying to help.)

Thanks for the tip. I'm envious of a 5 sec response for the program guide though. The H260F is interesting. Nice to have a good option if the Accurian dies.

The Natural

11-07-06, 04:31 PM

Just discovered this thread today. I am having a westinghouse 37 HDTV delivered on friday and was looking into some HD OTA recievers. This samsung seams to be the best of the bunch. Can anyone tell me how an OTA reciever works with your cable signal? Do you still pay for your cable and use it in place of your normal cablebox or can you get cable channels now withought having to pay for cable at all? Thanks in advance for any help you can give.

ekb

11-07-06, 05:57 PM

Can anyone tell me how an OTA reciever works with your cable signal? It doesn't. You need a QAM receiver. The H260 is both OTA and QAM.
Do you still pay for your cable and use it in place of your normal cablebox or can you get cable channels now withought having to pay for cable at all? Thanks in advance for any help you can give.You need to have minimal cable service so that it is piped into your house. Often times (but not always) there are unencrypted channels that the QAM receiver can decode. Usually your local broadcast HD channels are included. It will not decode encrypted channels.

Ed

jgabby

11-07-06, 06:19 PM

Here's a quick question regarding the h260f QAM ability... what is the RF range that it is able to tune?

In my experience, the QAM tuners built into the OTA receivers can tune up to about 800 MHz - OTA channel 69. My local cable system put many of the unencrypted QAM streams at 800-850 MHz, above the range of my tuner, making it impossible to get to them.

So can the h260f tune above Channel 69/800 MHz?

Davinleeds

11-07-06, 06:35 PM

oryan_dunn

11-07-06, 10:17 PM

They both have 5th gen LG Tuner

This samsung does not have the LG chip, rather it has an ATI chip.

Davinleeds

11-08-06, 11:03 AM

Obviously, it's an ATI chip, I was told the TUNER was LG. Thanks.

oryan_dunn

11-08-06, 11:27 AM

Obviously, it's an ATI chip, I was told the TUNER was LG. Thanks.

The thing everyone gets excited about is the 5gen LG decoder chip. The actual RF tuner probably hasn't changed in 40-50 years. The tuner just selects the RF frequency, the decoder chip is what overcomes weak signal strength and multipath and decodes the digital signal. I didn't mean imply that you didn't read the prior posts.

DonB2

11-08-06, 04:12 PM

I read back in the SAMSUNG T 100 days that the sensitivity of the front end transistor was important also. But maybe now that is a moot point.

-DonB2

goldenrod

11-08-06, 05:16 PM

As I noted earlier in this thread, the Samsung works pretty well, but it does not receive weak signals or signals suffering from multipath as well as a receiver equipped with the 5th gen LG.

The Samsung is reasonably good, but not quite up to the LG. I compared it with two different receiver that use the LG -- a DirecTV H20 and Fusion USB receiver.

It will be great when (if?) somebody makes a stand-alone STB that uses the 5th gen LG.

socd

11-08-06, 05:50 PM

You can buy it from circuit city on line.

Pringals

11-09-06, 02:19 AM

It will be great when (if?) somebody makes a stand-alone STB that uses the 5th gen LG.

... with built in DVR ...

That's on my 2006-2007 Christmas wish list ...

enier

11-09-06, 09:13 AM

It will be great when (if?) somebody makes a stand-alone STB that uses the 5th gen LG.

LG has new tuners coming out. Although it's not really STB but more like a recorder. I'm assuming they are using the same chips/circuitry as the Fusion. Here's a picture of the units... http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/LGline2007.html

Bill-1

11-09-06, 09:53 AM

Have any of you early 'H260 users on this thread successfully controlled it with ReplayTV IR-blaster codes?

I'm new to posting on this forum, but I've read that some members have successfully IR-controlled other Samsung tuners (T351, T451) and integrated them into their ReplayTV channel guide.

I've manually recorded OTA 16X9 via S-video on my ReplayTV and the quality is surprisingly good, but my current tuner isn't compatible with the ReplayTV IR-blaster codes, so I'm thinking about a adding a dedicated 'H260 if it's possible to get the IR codes to work.

Any advice would be appreciated.

DonB2

11-09-06, 10:55 AM

5th Generation vs 5th Generation I get confused

When I read on this post about the 5th Generation Chip are we talking LG or ATI?

Is the ATI Xilleon 260 considered to be a 5th Generation chip? Or is the designation of 5th generation used in context with the LG chip set only.

-Donb2

Chuckkey

11-09-06, 02:54 PM

Zenith showed the first "5th" Generation chip at NAB a couple of years ago. Ever since then, chips that work better with multipath are loosely grouped into Generation 5 chips. No one knows what group the ATI chip is in.

What we in the industry expect is that the newer generation of chips, whatever you want to call them, will successfully decode more of the ensembles listed in the ATSC A/74 Receiver Guidelines. These were multipath profiles that were generated in Washington, DC and NYC and recorded and they are distributed to manufacturers to test their receivers. There does not seem to be a consensus yet as to what profiles and how many of them need to be decoded to qualify the receiver as a higher generation, current technology one.

Some say 21 profiles, some say 30, Ive heard 34 and 37 out of the 50 that were generated and are part of A/74.

DonB2

11-09-06, 04:03 PM

Chuckkey,

Thanks that explains it. Getting past the multipath issues will make me very happy.

-DonB2

Chuckkey

11-10-06, 12:21 PM

Probably off topic for this thread, but Samsung was a major contributor to this symposium. Both the slide show and the audio are very informative.

http://www.iptv.org/dtv/2006/media_pres.cfm?ses=5&id=7&Track=T

holl_ands

11-10-06, 08:24 PM

Dont know what happened to Gemini. I surmise the ATI has a faster processor and more integration. I was disappointed seeing I met Samsungs design team on that chip and was told by them it would be out this fall.

ATI seems to have some great engineering people there. I would not doubt that it does better than the Zenith chip.

I almost pushed the button, I'm sure a reset. Did not want to kill the box though. They are out of stock in LA right now and calling Samsung Customer Service would not be good.
Per your Cropped JPEG, the square chip next to the Alps "tin-can" tuner is labeled Sillicon Image and hence must be the HDMI interface chip---
This should have been obvious due to it's location next to the HDMI connector.

===============================================
The Samsung DTB-H260F OTA STB uses the ALPS TDQU3-001A, which is a General Purpose VHF/UHF RF Tuner Module:
http://www3.alps.co.jp/index-e.html
(Look under RF DEVICES/DIGITAL TERRESTRIAL TUNERS.)

The spec sheet for the TDQ series tuner specifies a "typical" Noise Figure of 7 dB (est. -84 dBm sensitivity),
which is equal to or better than many other tuners, but not quite as good as the Alps TEQ series tuner ("typical" N.F. is 5.5 dB VHF and 6 dB UHF).

I'm going to speculate that the RF performance is probably the same for the companion TDH series tuner,
which adds an ATI NXT2004 ATSC/QAM DECODER chip. FYI: The TDH2 is used in my Sylvania 6900DTE OTA STB and also the PrimeTV PHD101 OTA STB.

====================================================
As posted above, the huge chip is the ATI Xilleon 240H (p/n 215H48AG21HG), which includes an ATSC/NTSC/QAM DEMODUATOR:
http://ati.amd.com/products/brochures/7281DTVAtAGlance_20.pdf
http://ati.amd.com/products/xilleon240sh/index.html

ATI claimed that the Theater ATSC Decoder chips meet the ATSC A/74 Performance Guidelines.
The later Xilleon 240/260 chips incorporated the Theater ATSC Decoder functionality into the display driver chip.
Hence it appears that the Samsung HTB-H260F is a so-called "fifth gen" receiver.

ATI Press Release claimed ATSC A74 Performance Guidelines "compliance" (some? most? all?) for their Theater 310 and 313 ATSC Decoder chips.
http://www.eetimes.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=55300593
ATI provided A74 Field Ensemble test results in Jun05 Comments re SHVERA ILLR (ET Docket 05-102) for four ATSC Receivers:
http://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/prod/ecfs/retrieve.cgi?native_or_pdf=pdf&id_document=6517693762
The best results were claimed for the latest ATI (presumably Xilleon?) chip with error free results for 34 out of 50.
The next best chip (preceeding Theater chip?) had very similiar results (32 out of 50).

The other two unnamed ATSC Receivers (one of which was called "3rd Gen") had error free results for only 9 or 10 out of 50.

===============================================
Here is the link to the CRC tests, where the Samsung "Gemini" prototype, tested in Aug05 (a few months later than the above ATI test report),
had error free results for 38 out of 50 Field Ensembles--but probably different test equipment:
http://www.crc.ca/en/html/crc/home/research/broadcast/rtnt

The Samsung prototype tested by CRC reportedly used an off-the-shelf Alps tuner and the so-called "Gemini" ATSC Decoder chip.
Based on what is in the DTB-H260F, I'm going to speculate that "Gemini" was an early version of the ATI Xilleon chip.

===================================================
When tested, the Samsung prototype had much better performance than the nearly two-years earlier LG/Zenith "fifth gen" prototype:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6339487&highlight=field#post6339487
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6041081&highlight=crc#post6041081

Unfortunately, the CRC test on the LG/Zenith "fifth gen" Receiver (with the LGDT3303 ATSC Decoder chip)
was conducted on an early prototype in Sep03 and we have not seen any recent tests on the (more or less) final product.

I would be curious to know how many of the A/74 test ensembles would fail on the PRODUCTION LG/Zenith "fifth gen" Receivers (e.g. PC Cards and HDTVs).

Chuckkey

11-11-06, 12:50 PM

Your very up to date and I agree with needing to know what the new Thompson and LG (Zenith) chips are capable of. Trying to get that information from the chip guys is real difficult. There were two "prototype" receivers produced in June this year but there are no reports as to performance. At least a report that shows what ensembles were passed and how many.

The NTIA website (coupon box program) has a lot of filings from concerned people, not only from the standpoint of mulitpath, but also interference. Many of the optimum interference values have not been determined. These tuners (Alps) all seem to use single conversion. The word is that the "Grand Alliance" prototype receiver way back used dual conversion, which is not cost effective for consumer TV. There is some thought of manufacturers going that direction as well, of course at a higher cost.

See Charlie Rhodes response to the NPRM from NTIA here: http://www.ntia.doc.gov/otiahome/dtv/comments/dtvcoupon_comment0047.pdf

Just seems like a lot of unknowns. A/74 has a lot of holes in it.

RegGuheert

11-11-06, 05:02 PM

These tuners (Alps) all seem to use single conversion. The word is that the "Grand Alliance" prototype receiver way back used dual conversion, which is not cost effective for consumer TV. There is some thought of manufacturers going that direction as well, of course at a higher cost.
I think multi-conversion tuners are coming at a lower cost than the current batch of single-conversion tuners. Microtune sells such a tuner for less than $3 today. Please have a look at their MT2131.

I tried to post a URL to the product datasheet, but the forum would not let me post it since I'm new here.

Reg

P.S. Thanks for all the info on the Samsung DTB-H260F!! I think I will hold off, as my Hughes HIRD-E86 now receives both NTSC and ATSC. It's not perfect, but having NTSC support makes up for some of it's failures. Hopefully better ATSC receivers are yet to come!

Chuckkey

11-11-06, 06:44 PM

Ill check out the Microtune, did not hear about that.
Chuck

Olevia37HD

11-11-06, 08:06 PM

Hokie Jim

11-11-06, 10:59 PM

I bought a Samsung DTB-H260F tuner today. I found that it was unable to consistently lock any new stations. I found the results very close to those of my Dishnetwork 622. I used dual output amplifier with the two boxes side by side. One station that was right on the fringe pixelized only slightly more with the 622. I am returning the Samsung tomorrow. I don't think this box is nearly as good as reviewed. I am disappointed. I was hoping for something revolutionary.

RegGuheert

11-12-06, 08:24 AM

My current setup is as follows:

I am about 55 miles from Washington DC and about 70 miles from Baltimore with mountains between me and both cities. Since I refuse to put my antenna on the roof, for a variety of reasons, I have ended up with a CM4228A in the attic on a rotator along with a CM777 preamp. (I also currently have an old Yagi antenna feeding VHF into the preamp for NTSC reception.) I use a Hughes HIRD-E86 STB for OTA reception.

This setup works amazingly well, considering the distance and the attic installation! I can typically receive about 10 different digital stations with about 20 channels of digital programming, plus about 20 more NTSC channels.

However, I seem to suffer from the following ATSC reception woes:
1) While three stations in Washington, DC come in clearly, three others are only marginal, working sometimes and not other times. If I buy a new HDTV receiver, it *must* have outstanding sensitivity, which basically means an industry-leading tuner. Based on posts by goldenrod and this one by Hokie (Va Tech?) Jim have convinced me that the Samsung DTB-H260F does not have an outstanding tuner.
2) The station which is closest to me (~25 miles) often suffers from terrible multipath distortion (though it occasionally works great??). It seems that the Samsung DTB-H260F would definitely help with reception of this channel.
3) I receive an NTSC signal off the back of my antenna at the same frequency as one of the ATSC channels I'm struggling to receive from Washington. I doubt any tuner can help to receive this signal. I'll either have to fiddle with my antenna or simply wait until NTSC is turned off in 2009.
4) My current tuner does not have the "add" feature mentioned earlier that can be used when scanning for channels. That sounds like a *great* feature for anyone using a rotator or multiple, switched antennas!! Unfortunately, the Samsung DTB-H260F does not help me there, either.
5) My current tuner only reports "Local programming" in the program guide (no actual programming). The detailed program guide on the Samsung DTB-H260F sounds great! Definitely a selling feature! (I would be using either component video or HDMI connections, so this *would* work for me.)
6) Another important consideration before the NTSC cutoff is that NTSC can be used when ATSC does not cut it. As such, I will say that any receiver I purchase before 2009 needs to also have an NTSC receiver.

If I decide that 3) above is not a receiver issue, I would conclude that the Samsung only has 2 of the 5 features I would require before I would replace my current tuner. Unfortunately, not enough...

Thanks to all for this thread, as it has helped me to refine my HDTV STB shopping list and to understand how the new Samsung stacks up (without actually purchasing one).

Thoughts?

Reg

arxaw

11-12-06, 01:06 PM

I bought a Samsung DTB-H260F tuner today. I found that it was unable to consistently lock any new stations.What antenna are you using? What type antenna does http://www.antennaweb.org say you need? Enter your complete address at antennaweb and post the results here.

Davinleeds

11-13-06, 10:38 AM

RegGuheert:
It will add a channel if you input it manually and if it receives it, then it will be in your line up.

holl_ands

11-13-06, 05:09 PM

I think multi-conversion tuners are coming at a lower cost than the current batch of single-conversion tuners. Microtune sells such a tuner for less than $3 today. Please have a look at their MT2131.

I tried to post a URL to the product datasheet, but the forum would not let me post it since I'm new here.

Reg

P.S. Thanks for all the info on the Samsung DTB-H260F!! I think I will hold off, as my Hughes HIRD-E86 now receives both NTSC and ATSC. It's not perfect, but having NTSC support makes up for some of it's failures. Hopefully better ATSC receivers are yet to come!
Microtune's Double Conversion Tuner chip discussion began in this post:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7209568&highlight=microtune#post7209568
Read down for couple days of discussion....

Microtune website is here:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-05-199A1.pdf
MT2131 Spec sheet and their "benchmark comparison report" is here:
http://www.microtune.com/products/pdf/mt2131_tuner_ic.pdf
http://www.microtune.com/products/pdf/mt2131_benchmarks.pdf

I provided a link to two technical articles written by John Norsworth of Microtune here:
http://www.freelists.org/archives/opendtv/03-2006/msg00028.html
He presents the double conversion tuner being used WITHOUT an RF Tuned Bandbass Filter on the input--
which of course results in better Sensitivity (e.g. Noise Figure) by eliminating the loss in an RF inductor and Varactor Diode
(voltage variable capacitor for tuning input RF filter).....and makes for a much more compact design that could fit into a USB Stick.

However, the RF Tuned Bandpass Filter (typical bandwidth of 10-20 MHz) on the input of a single conversion tuner
plays a very important role in suppressing strong stations so that you can receive a desired weak signal.
Hence, the primary use for a double conversion tuner would be on a cable system where all the signals are roughly
the same strength, so the tuner doesn't have to try to receive a weak signal among many other strong signals.

Microtune cites improved performance for adjacent channel performance (D/U ratios), which would be
nearly unaffected with or without an input RF Bandpass Filter.
What has NOT yet been revealed is how much sensitivity is lost from overload from ALL the other channels
across the entire band if an input RF Bandpass Filter is not used....hopefully, an OTA tuner would not forgo the input RF Bandpass filter...

====================================================
FYI: The FCC sponsored a series of tests on various OTA STBs and HDTVs (sshhh!!! no names!!!!):
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-05-199A1.pdf
See page 31 for Sensitivity and page 34 for ability to decode the A/74 Field Ensembles.

smith2

11-13-06, 06:03 PM

Where can I purchase the DTB-H260F online? I have been searching for quite sometime now w/ no luck.

arxaw

11-13-06, 09:28 PM

CircuitCity (http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Samsung-HD-Tuner-DTB-H260F/sem/rpsm/oid/164855/catOid/-12886/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do) is one such place.

SnellKrell

11-13-06, 09:38 PM

Where can I purchase the DTB-H260F online? I have been searching for quite sometime now w/ no luck.

B&H Photo (very reliable) has it on order.

anthandle

11-13-06, 10:50 PM

Go to Best Buy, if they don't have it, have them check the other local store inventories. If it is farther than you want to drive have them transfer one up to their store. You will have to prepay, but it is reserved for you.

I did it that way and got mine in 3 days.

hbrown

11-14-06, 09:41 AM

Where can I purchase the DTB-H260F online? I have been searching for quite sometime now w/ no luck.

The usual suspects:

Amazon (lowest price AFAIK, free ground shipping, not in stock)
One Call (will price match but charges for 3-day shipping, also not in stock)

and the others mentioned above.

HTH

DonB2

11-14-06, 09:49 AM

arxaw

11-14-06, 10:19 AM

Two Best Buys in our area have them in stock.

sciontC

11-14-06, 05:04 PM

Thanks for your help guys... I picked one up at BestBuy in Burbank, CA (Store #137) during lunch. Got it for $158.39+tax with a 12% off coupon from ebay. They still have one left, now I just need a good antenna...

PeterK

11-15-06, 07:52 PM

I purchased mine last week from One Call and received it in 3 days. Shipping was free via FedEx. I recommend you call to order vs internet as I had problems with their website but was treated great via phone. It arrived with lots of extra packing wrapped inside another box - no damage.
Pete

arxaw

11-16-06, 08:14 AM

Currently, 1 C*A*L*L doesn't have them in stock.

DarrinH

11-16-06, 09:37 AM

It appears that CC has these back in stock online.

http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/howToGetItTab.do?c=1&zip=25271&oid=164855&userClick=&showMoreStores=true

jimp2244

11-16-06, 10:10 AM

It appears that CC has these back in stock online.

http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/howToGetItTab.do?c=1&zip=25271&oid=164855&userClick=&showMoreStores=true

Yes, I just bought one!

Budget_HT

11-16-06, 10:31 AM

Does this tuner map channels from the real channel to their logical channel? For example, real channel 48.1 is known to viewers as channel 5.1. Which channel number would I use after setup to tune in that channel?

arxaw

11-16-06, 12:15 PM

Budget_HT

11-16-06, 12:23 PM

It maps to the virtual channel number the station chooses, which is usually their old analog channel number.

I don't think it's "logical" though, but you may differ.

After analog is shut down, I think they should be forced to use the actual channel number they're broadcasting on.
Thanks!

I interpret your response as covering OTA DTV channel handling.

I agree that everything would be simpler if they just used the real channel numbers (actual frequency assignments) instead of mapping, until you get to cable equivalents and yet another set of channel numbers.

I forgot to ask if the DTB-H260F handles QAM cable real channels and "logical" channel mappings the same way as for OTA channels.

My sister in law has the older Samsung 451 model and she uses it for HD reception from Comcast cable. The 451 does not map from a cable channel (e.g., 84.2) to the logical channel (e.g., 5.1) that is "viewer-friendly." So she has to keep a listing of the HD cable channel numbers handy to find what she is looking for.

Comcast periodically moves their real QAM channel assignments around, confusing the humans even more, and requiring a new scan or manual manipulation to get the desired channels and drop the unwanted channels.

I am aware of ATSC/QAM tuner-equipped HDTVs that map channels numbers for the QAM scenario. Hitachi is one example that does so.

moxie1617

11-16-06, 12:36 PM

I forgot to ask if the DTB-H260F handles QAM cable real channels and "logical" channel mappings the same way as for OTA channels.

My sister in law has the older Samsung 451 model and she uses it for HD reception from Comcast cable. The 451 does not map from a cable channel (e.g., 84.2) to the logical channel (e.g., 5.1) that is "viewer-friendly." So she has to keep a listing of the HD cable channel numbers handy to find what she is looking for.

Comcast periodically moves their real QAM channel assignments around, confusing the humans even more, and requiring a new scan or manual manipulation to get the desired channels and drop the unwanted channels.

I am aware of ATSC/QAM tuner-equipped HDTVs that map channels numbers for the QAM scenario. Hitachi is one example that does so.

I believe that is a function of the broadcaster. The virtual channel is mapped according to information broadcast in the PSIP info. It's Comcast who is mapping to 84.2, not the STB.

SnellKrell

11-16-06, 12:37 PM

The FCC and the NAB rightfully pushed for mapping for many reasons.

First, it was felt, and rightfully so, that the majority of the public - not readers of this
Forum - would not easily adapt to the fact that Channel 56.1 is in reality the digital version of Channel 2.

The biggest reason for mapping is that television stations expend huge amounts of dollars and time to promote themselves using their analogue channel allocations, not their call letters.

This came from experience in England where no one cared about a channel allocation -
the operative thing was the program service. For example, BBC 1 in London might have been transmitted on UHF Channel 37, but the customer didn't care and didn't know.
The only one who was involved on the receiving end was the person selling you an antenna.

Rammitinski

11-16-06, 12:59 PM

You sure can not find one here in Raleigh, NC at either Best Buy or Circuit City. All the salesmen I talked to acted clueless as to what a ATSC STB even was.

Basically I got the why would you buy a STB when most tv's have it built in?

-DonB2All of the BB employees that I've encountered in all of their stores that I've ever been in "act" that way.

They're trying to get you to either:

a.) buy a new TV from them, or

b.) subscribe to Direct or Comcast through them.

They are the most dishonest, least trustworthy salespeople as a whole that I've ever dealt with at any electronics store. They must train them that way, because they all try to pull the same BS (in my experience).

arxaw

11-16-06, 03:10 PM

I believe that is a function of the broadcaster. The virtual channel is mapped according to information broadcast in the PSIP info. It's Comcast who is mapping to 84.2, not the STB.Correct.

The mapping comes from the source. If OTA, the tuner gets the virtual channel info from the broadcast signal. On cable, the virtual channel numbers come from the cableco. And if the cable channel numbers are not the same as OTA, or if they intermittently change, that's the cableco's fault, not the tuner. The tuner is only displaying what it's receiving.

I assumed the OP was referring to OTA broadcasts, since I saw no mention of cable in the post.

Budget_HT

11-16-06, 03:24 PM

I understand PSIP data enough to realize that the broadcaster specifies the "map to" channel number for OTA. I have one OTA HD receiver that uses that if I set the option correctly.

On the cable/QAM side, I don't know if the channel mapping from the broadcaster makes the trip succesfully all the way to the QAM tuner. I have seen two examples from the same Comcast Cable head end site:

1. A Samsung SIRT-451 ATSC/QAM tuner that does not display the "map to" channels numbers, and there is no apparent user option setting to make it happen;

2. A Hitachi cable-card-ready HDTV without a cabel card, receiving QAM channels and mapping most of them (but not all) to the "map to" channels from the broadcasters.

I am left to conclude that the 451 box will not support channel mapping, even if it is available from the cable provider.

I am asking whether the 260 box supports channel mapping from cable QAM sources or not.

Sorry if I was not clear in my earlier posts. Thanks for the responses.

arxaw

11-16-06, 03:57 PM

...On the cable/QAM side, I don't know if the channel mapping from the broadcaster amkes the trip succesfully all the way to the QAM tuner.It doesn't. The cableco must remap them correctly when re-encoding them to QAM or they will just be obscure numbers.

A local cableco in our area correctly remaps just one local HD channel (CBS). All the rest are off the wall numbers requiring a pen & paper list.

Budget_HT

11-16-06, 05:27 PM

It doesn't. The cableco must remap them correctly when re-encoding them to QAM or they will just be obscure numbers.

A local cableco in our area correctly remaps just one local HD channel (CBS). All the rest are off the wall numbers requiring a pen & paper list.
So, assuming the cable company has met their obligation to provide the mapping information in the data stream, will the Samsung DTB-H260F use that data and perform the mapping so the viewer sees the familiar channel numbers?

level7

11-16-06, 08:02 PM

You sure can not find one here in Raleigh, NC at either Best Buy or Circuit City. All the salesmen I talked to acted clueless as to what a ATSC STB even was.

Basically I got the why would you buy a STB when most tv's have it built in?

-DonB2

I have one in Raleigh, contemplating returning it. While it appears to pick up OTA just fine, it does *not* appear to pick up the unencrypted QAM/256 that time warner cable is putting out. I verified I could get the channels by lugging my PC with a cheapo fustionHDTV card in it down there and doing a channel scan and getting all the channels.

Switching between HRC/IRC/STD made no difference. Quite disappointing, really, because all I wanted was the unencrypted stuff over cable. :mad:

Snyder81

11-16-06, 08:09 PM

Does this unit supporting tuning subchannels without the "Up/Down Channel" buttons? My local weather sub-channel is 25.3. Can I type 2-5-3 on the remote and have it tune in to that channel? I'd really like an STB that can tune subchannels so my ReplayTV can tune subchannels via an IR blaster. Thanks!

Davinleeds

11-16-06, 08:20 PM

Direct input using the dash-yes.

arxaw

11-17-06, 08:48 AM

...Can I type 2-5-3 on the remote and have it tune in to that channel?

Hit 2 5 dash 3

arxaw

11-17-06, 08:59 AM

So, assuming the cable company has met their obligation to provide the mapping information in the data stream, will the Samsung DTB-H260F use that data and perform the mapping so the viewer sees the familiar channel numbers?If they provide the correct mapping information, it should show the "familiar" channel numbers. I may be wrong, but I wasn't aware that cablecos were under any obligation to do remapping to a particular channel number. AFAIK, only OTA broadcast stations are required by the FCC to map channels (via PSIP). It would be to the stations' advantage though, if the cablecos remapped to something familiar, so that digital cable ready tuners would display it.

Maybe you could contact the stations and your cableco about this. But the odds are probably stacked against you finding someone who knows WTF you are talking about...

Budget_HT

11-17-06, 03:05 PM

If they provide the correct mapping information, it should show the "familiar" channel numbers. I may be wrong, but I wasn't aware that cablecos were under any obligation to do remapping to a particular channel number. AFAIK, only OTA broadcast stations are required by the FCC to map channels (via PSIP). It would be to the stations' advantage though, if the cablecos remapped to something familiar, so that digital cable ready tuners would display it.

Maybe you could contact the stations and your cableco about this. But the odds are probably stacked against you finding someone who knows WTF you are talking about...
Someone here must have figured it out, because some (but not all) stations map automatically, but only on some receivers. The SIRT-451 that I have access to never maps, but an integrated HDTV on the same cable system does.

Apparently no one listening has any actual experience in this area with the newer Samsung HD receiver.

I guess we need to rememeber that we are still in the infancy stage for some parts of this new HDTV world, particularly on the cable side. I have been watching OTA and DirecTV HDTV for 6 years, but I have not tried any cable equipment of my own.

RegGuheert

11-17-06, 05:04 PM

Thanks, Davinleeds! That's also how my current receiver works, though it took me some time to figure that out!

Thanks for providing the links, holl_ands!

...
He presents the double conversion tuner being used WITHOUT an RF Tuned Bandbass Filter on the input--which of course results in better Sensitivity (e.g. Noise Figure) by eliminating the loss in an RF inductor and Varactor Diode (voltage variable capacitor for tuning input RF filter).....and makes for a much more compact design that could fit into a USB Stick.

However, the RF Tuned Bandpass Filter (typical bandwidth of 10-20 MHz) on the input of a single conversion tuner plays a very important role in suppressing strong stations so that you can receive a desired weak signal. Hence, the primary use for a double conversion tuner would be on a cable system where all the signals are roughly the same strength, so the tuner doesn't have to try to receive a weak signal among many other strong signals.

Microtune cites improved performance for adjacent channel performance (D/U ratios), which would be nearly unaffected with or without an input RF Bandpass Filter. What has NOT yet been revealed is how much sensitivity is lost from overload from ALL the other channels across the entire band if an input RF Bandpass Filter is not used....hopefully, an OTA tuner would not forgo the input RF Bandpass filter...
Good point! Looking at the datasheet in the link you have provide, it is clear that the linearity of the LNA is a KEY specification for achieving good OTA sensitivity. I assume that they adjust the VLNA to some output power level (to meet some linearity requirement) and then filter after the first conversion to protect the linearity of the other stages. Clearly if there is a very strong signal also received with the desired small signal , then the gain of the VLNA will be limited and overall receiver sensitivity will suffer. How much it suffers is unknown, since I don't know the output power capability of the LNA.

For CATV mode, please note that the noise performance is 2 dB worse than in OTA mode. It's very possible that they switch in some sort of filtering structure prior to the LNA in this mode or perhaps increase its linearity by upping the bias current. (I note that such a filter is not shown in the datasheet, however.) If so, I suppose they could also choose to do this in the cases where OTA sensitivity would have been hurt more than 2 dB due to a large signal. That would limit the effect of the large blocking channels to no more than about a 2-dB hit in sensitivity. This is all conjecture on my part, but it seems reasonable.

For me, personally, I don't think it would be a big issue since the strongest station is about 25 miles away and it is not in the direction of the farther stations which I desire to receive. However, I realize this is not true for many...

Thoughts?

Reg