Anyone tried it? What do you think?

I'll tell you mine later when I get the chance.

They repackaged the EQ circuitry built into their DD subs into a standalone unit which will work with any sub. I have the DD-15 (I love it), and the EQ works very well, and has a fairly nice on-screen user interface. You can dial in low freq. response fairly well (flat) with it, and it has 6 presets for different source material types, changeable from the remote. Downside is that, with only one mic input, you can only adjust for one listening position in a room - doesn't use multiple mikes to average response over multiple positions - so if you adjust it "just right" and then move the mic, it can be way off where you move the mic to. Not optimal for multi-seat HTs.

I think they are coming up with a 5 mic option. Haven't checked on it so maybe that option is out already

I love it - it truly made a huge difference in my system.

"Audiophiles" traditionally do not like inserting EQ into their systems, at least when it involves extra DA conversions, because the benefits of the EQ may be
hurt more by the loss of sonics in the DA conversions. Or at least it may be better to use room treatments and design to flatten frequency response, but that doesn't work as well in the low bass. In fact, I designed my room from the ground up to have an outstanding sound, #3 on the Louden scale for recommended rooms (not #1 because that wasn't long enough for home theater). And from my sweet spot my room is flat easily within 3 dB above 100 Hz, thanks to design, furnishings and Michael Green acoustic control products. The question is whether a highly resolving system will hear this extra DA conversion steps at the low bass frequencies only, when the SMS-1 is used only for the subwoofers and not for the main speakers? What do you think?

What about crossover and slope?

I can set my main speakers to whatever crossover and slope I like via my Theta CB3 surround processor for redbook CD, Dolby Digital and DTS sources, so I set the SMS-1 low pass to off.

Note that my Aerial SW12 subs are placed direct to the inside of my main speakers. Traditionally, with full range Aerials, I have set the main speakers low pass using Phase Perfect and at 40 Hz 6 dB slope, because in listening to redbook CD there is no question that the music and bass seems to have more vibrancy, naturalness and reality doing this. When you go up to 80 Hz there is clearly something magical that's lost and it still sounds good, but doesn't get you thumpin'.

Using the SMS-1 with the CB3 high pass set at 80 Hz 6 dB the SMS-1 monitor frequency slope is a good amount evener 100 Hz and below, than using 40 Hz 6 dB as the high pass. So wouldn't you think that objectively it makes sense to use the 80 Hz 6 dB high pass, that it should sound better? What do you folks think?

I think they are coming up with a 5 mic option. Haven't checked on it so maybe that option is out alreadyIt is out and mainly aimed at the installer market because of cost-per Velodyne.

"Audiophiles" traditionally do not like inserting EQ into their systems, at least when it involves extra DA conversions, because the benefits of the EQ may be
hurt more by the loss of sonics in the DA conversions. Or at least it may be better to use room treatments and design to flatten frequency response, but that doesn't work as well in the low bass.

I think that as D/A tech keeps on improving it is worthwhile to challenge the traditional (obsolete?) assumption that inserting D/A into the audio chain has an audible effect on sound quality from time to time.

Also I think that room EQ and acoustic treatment are complementary - one works in the frequency domain and the other in the time domain.

Steve,

I just got a SMS-1, but haven't hooked it up yet. I too am using two subs just to the inside of my mains because of installation constraints. How did you go about setting it up for two subs? Are you considering a second SMS-1 to run them in stereo?

Velodyne does now offer the multiple mic set-up that averages 5 or 6 mic positions, but as mentioned above, it is expensive considering you'd only use it once or twice if you change your room or sub location. Maybe they'll offer a rental?

I love mine. In my old HT, which had extensive Michael Green room treatments, I spent an incredible amount of time playing around to get a good flat bass response. With the SMS-1 in my new, acoustically challenged, room I was able to dial my sub in with 1.5 hours. Amazing time saver and my bass has never sounded better. The Genelec 7035a upgrade didn't hurt either. ;)

"Audiophiles" traditionally do not like inserting EQ into their systems, at least when it involves extra DA conversions, because the benefits of the EQ may be
hurt more by the loss of sonics in the DA conversions. Or at least it may be better to use room treatments and design to flatten frequency response, but that doesn't work as well in the low bass. In fact, I designed my room from the ground up to have an outstanding sound, #3 on the Louden scale for recommended rooms (not #1 because that wasn't long enough for home theater). And from my sweet spot my room is flat easily within 3 dB above 100 Hz, thanks to design, furnishings and Michael Green acoustic control products. The question is whether a highly resolving system will hear this extra DA conversion steps at the low bass frequencies only, when the SMS-1 is used only for the subwoofers and not for the main speakers? What do you think?

My experience with good EQ on subwoofers is that the benefits far outweigh the negatives. Additional noise and distortion at these frequencies is far below audible levels in quality systems and Velodyne is certainly in that category. The results from these units is perfectly reasonable, but I prefer a manual parametric system like the DSP1124P.

Steve,

I just got a SMS-1, but haven't hooked it up yet. I too am using two subs just to the inside of my mains because of installation constraints. How did you go about setting it up for two subs? Are you considering a second SMS-1 to run them in stereo?

I'm doing it the easy way. I set each Aerial sub's rear volume to the one-quarter mark. I placed the SMS-1 prior to the front left Aerial sub - before all three subs as the other two subs are chained from the front left one.

Then I simply use the SMS-1 as though only one sub is connected.

If I want to see the frequency response difference between using one vs two vs three subs, all I need do is turn off the sub(s) that I don't want to measure.

My experience with good EQ on subwoofers is that the benefits far outweigh the negatives. Additional noise and distortion at these frequencies is far below audible levels in quality systems and Velodyne is certainly in that category. The results from these units is perfectly reasonable, but I prefer a manual parametric system like the DSP1124P.


The DSP1124P like the SMS-1 uses DA conversion to perform the EQ digitally.
The SMS-1 has both auto and manual modes. So I don't understand what you think makes the DSP1124P better other than its much lower price?

Here's specs on the DSP1124P:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/238139-REG/Behringer_DSP1124P_DSP1124P_Dual_Channel.html

The DSP1124P like the SMS-1 uses DA conversion to perform the EQ digitally.
The SMS-1 has both auto and manual modes. So I don't understand what you think makes the DSP1124P better other than its much lower price?

Here's specs on the DSP1124P:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/238139-REG/Behringer_DSP1124P_DSP1124P_Dual_Channel.html

The whole auto EQ process the SMS-1 is using is flawed to some extent because it only measures the subwoofer and not the subwoofer as part of the whole system. I see no reason to pay for all of the features of the SMS-1 when I only want the parametric EQ portion.

The SMS-1 is an 8 band mono parametric equalizer. The SMS-1 does not list any audio performance specifications. It is also not uncommon for video circuitry like that found in the SMS-1 to add noise to audio. At the price point of the SMS-1 is not likely to provide a high quality microphone or preamplifier. The measurement tools provided with SMS-1 is also lacking at this price.

The DSP1124P is a 12 band per channel stereo parametric equalizer that can be used easily with my dual subwoofer setup. The DSP1124P provides the normal audio performance specifications. At least a portion of higher quality measurement tools or a professional can be purchased with the money left over between these two products.

The DSP1124P sells for $99. It must be the very, very, very, very, etc. BEST audio bargain in the whole world to have such unexcelled high end audio quality for that meager price.
I am overwhelmed!

The SMS-1 so far seems to work nicely for me and I find that provided I use my Theta CB3
crossover at 40 z 6 dB to my main Aerial speakers, my system sounds somewhat better using it, despite the extra DA conversion steps. I tried the 80 Hz 6 dB crossover and
it didn't sound as good although it measured well on the SMS-1's on screen display.

For you needs, the Behringer seems to work well and you're happy with it, so fine.

That might be so Jeff but for people who want a all in one solution to better bottom end and don't have to have a engineering degree to oprate it the SMS-1 does a fantastic job. :D

The DSP1124P sells for $99. It must be the very, very, very, very, etc. BEST audio bargain in the whole world to have such unexcelled high end audio quality for that meager price.
I am overwhelmed!

The SMS-1 so far seems to work nicely for me and I find that provided I use my Theta CB3
crossover at 40 z 6 dB to my main Aerial speakers, my system sounds somewhat better using it, despite the extra DA conversion steps. I tried the 80 Hz 6 dB crossover and
it didn't sound as good although it measured well on the SMS-1's on screen display.

For you needs, the Behringer seems to work well and you're happy with it, so fine.

I never said the SMS-1 was a bad product. It will benefit most people to use one.

You are kidding yourself though if you think the cost of the SMS-1 is mostly dedicated to quality audio. Any audio product that does not provide performance specifications should be regarded with suspicion. A quality reference microphone costs as much as the SMS-1. The one included wiht the SMS-1 is a cheap $50 microphone. You should also note the SMS-1 uses 20 bit A/D while the DSP1124P is a 24 bit solution.

You are kidding yourself though if you think the cost of the SMS-1 is mostly dedicated to quality audio. Any audio product that does not provide performance specifications should be regarded with suspicion. A quality reference microphone costs as much as the SMS-1. The one included wiht the SMS-1 is a cheap $50 microphone. You should also note the SMS-1 uses 20 bit A/D while the DSP1124P is a 24 bit solution.

Jeff

Have you tried the SMS-1?

What microphopone do you use and what does it cost? Or is there a microphone supplied with the $99 DSP1124P?

I ain't sayin' that the SMS-1 or the DSP1124P are the best ways to do this? But the SMS-1 us east for me as a layperson to do - and it seems to work nicely even in my high resolution room and system.

Jeff

Have you tried the SMS-1?

What microphopone do you use and what does it cost? Or is there a microphone supplied with the $99 DSP1124P?

I ain't sayin' that the SMS-1 or the DSP1124P are the best ways to do this? But the SMS-1 us east for me as a layperson to do - and it seems to work nicely even in my high resolution room and system.

I certainly have used the SMS-1 and it is a reasonable product. Most automatic EQ systems I have worked with do more harm than good, but this is not one of them.

I use an Earthworks M30. It cost me about $600.

The Velodyne SMS-1 is a good product. I have used it. I prefer to use just a parametric EQ the Rane PE17 being a favorite. The Velodyne sweeps at 1/3 octave. If you go to realtraps webpage you can burn a 1/12 octave sweep CD. If you have a peak at say 45hz, the SMS-1 will completely miss it as it is only going to sweep at 40hz and then go to 50 hz and 60 hz, etc. Lot of frequency between those for a big peak or dip to hide. Also if you use a room mode calculator you will discover that some the modes most likely present in your room will fit between the graph of a 1/3 octave sweep. I think the calculator shows that my room should have a peak at 33 hz. Impossible, I believe, to touch that with a 1/3 octave EQ. Steve, if I could give you just a single piece of advice that I think would be the best improvement you could make? Bass traps. Buy some of those Real Traps Mondo traps and stick them in your front corners. I would stack two veridically in each corner. Bass traps will reduce "ringing." The room will continue "to play" the bass note after it should have stopped. Bass traps will allow your notes to start and stop, "on a dime." This take a little of the fun out of hometheater where a little boom my be welcomed. With music though, it improves the performance. Steve with all the cash you have into high end cables,granted:) they are excellent ones, you really owe it to yourself to spend just a little more on some bass traps for those corners. Because of your speaker placement, 7 feet from the back wall and careful seating placement to avoid many nulls and peaks, your room sounded great without eq and bass traps. Still I firmly believe that ANY room will improve with both bass traps and parametric EQ for the sub frequencies which basically is what the Velodyne SMS-1 is.

The Velodyne SMS-1 is a good product. I have used it. I prefer to use just a parametric EQ the Rane PE17 being a favorite. The Velodyne sweeps at 1/3 octave. If you go to realtraps webpage you can burn a 1/12 octave sweep CD. If you have a peak at say 45hz, the SMS-1 will completely miss it as it is only going to sweep at 40hz and then go to 50 hz and 60 hz, etc. Lot of frequency between those for a big peak or dip to hide. Also if you use a room mode calculator you will discover that some the modes most likely present in your room will fit between the graph of a 1/3 octave sweep. I think the calculator shows that my room should have a peak at 33 hz. Impossible, I believe, to touch that with a 1/3 octave EQ. Steve, if I could give you just a single piece of advice that I think would be the best improvement you could make? Bass traps. Buy some of those Real Traps Mondo traps and stick them in your front corners. I would stack two veridically in each corner. Bass traps will reduce "ringing." The room will continue "to play" the bass note after it should have stopped. Bass traps will allow your notes to start and stop, "on a dime." This take a little of the fun out of hometheater where a little boom my be welcomed. With music though, it improves the performance. Steve with all the cash you have into high end cables,granted:) they are excellent ones, you really owe it to yourself to spend just a little more on some bass traps for those corners. Because of your speaker placement, 7 feet from the back wall and careful seating placement to avoid many nulls and peaks, your room sounded great without eq and bass traps. Still I firmly believe that ANY room will improve with both bass traps and parametric EQ for the sub frequencies which basically is what the Velodyne SMS-1 is.

Bulldogger gives good advise which ain't no bull!!!@@@ No matter how good it sounds there may always be ways to get closer to sonic nirvana. Will do as get the chance.

Bulldogger makes a great point that is often said but still lost because we are so into the "gear". The room is the most important piece of the puzzle, but it is often too intangible, time-consuming, and for many, just no fun to try to get right [not to mention the often undesirable WAF associated with acoustic devices].

Ethan Winer [is that right?] at Real Traps is a wealth of knowledge and openly shares it with us in various audio forums...as obsessive as we are. For that alone, he deserves our patronage. Another is Terry Montlick, who I have been intending to hire for more than a year now [I just can’t get my s**t together!], and of course there is Rives and others.

Personally, after hearing some really good rooms around the country, I get the feeling that if you get the room right, the need for an EQ is less dire. Nevertheless, the SMS-1, although limited in scope, gives many of us a great easy starting point because it is one stop, quick and easy shopping [yes, at a price]. If we want, it does allow us to tinker manually with individually configurable frequencies, Q and level, albeit a limited number of those, to let us experiment and learn more about what we want from an EQ and its effects.

Additionally, SMS-1 users have a good support network in various forums and with Velodyne direct. For most people, that is enough to make the entry fee worth while. In the end, if you really understand it all and are good at it, and yet still need more [like Bulldogger and umr], then perhaps getting a quality Parametric EQ like the Rane should be considered.

At least, this is the way I am approaching this.

No doubt Dave7. The SMS-1 is a break-through product. The device is a stellar performer at the price point. It definitely will improve your system. Room equalization and treatment can be difficult for the novice. This device makes it as simple as connecting it and pushing a button. I agree. You start with room treatments instead of just a totally brute force approach with EQ. Those very low frequencies in the subwoofer range are too powerful to be corrected with a small amount of bass trapping. For these frequencies, I think EQ gets you a long way.

The whole auto EQ process the SMS-1 is using is flawed to some extent because it only measures the subwoofer and not the subwoofer as part of the whole system. I see no reason to pay for all of the features of the SMS-1 when I only want the parametric EQ portion. Not so, The test signal output is sent to a main channel input (or multiple main channel inputs) so that the sound measured is that output from the main channel(s) and the sub. The display shows measured levels up to 200Hz. Thus, you can adjust/EQ the sub in the context of the whole system.

The SMS-1 is an 8 band mono parametric equalizer. The SMS-1 does not list any audio performance specifications. It is also not uncommon for video circuitry like that found in the SMS-1 to add noise to audio. At the price point of the SMS-1 is not likely to provide a high quality microphone or preamplifier. The measurement tools provided with SMS-1 is also lacking at this price.Eh, mebbe. Lack of info doesn't necessarily mean they are hiding something. In practice, the unit is, imho, sufficiently transparent in the sub channel.

regarding the mic, Bruce Thigpen built a custom broadband mic measuring down to DC out of some radio shack parts... measured well on the FFT software, with little correction. Total bill of materials was about $5.00. So I believe Velo could deliver a decent but low cost mic for the purpose of sampling calibration.

I agree that EQ is almost a necessity for subwoofers, particularly if you don't have a purpose built room. My living room has good acoustics for a "normal" room, and I have Auralex foam bass traps (Leopards, IIRC -- the triangular ones that go in the corners) on the front wall. I bought a Revel B15 a few months before the Velodyne DD series came out -- the Revel LFO test CD & software (to setup the 3 band parametric EQ) are pretty good. Revel points out that 1/3 octave bands aren't fine enough resolution to really dial in a subwoofer, as has been explained above.

+/- 10dB swings (not uncommon if you measure a normal room) are much worse errors than whatever your EQ technology of choice is introducing....

Drew Dean

As I discussed above, initially I setup the SMS-1 using a main speaker high pass crossover of 80 Hz 6 dB (set in my Theta CB3 menu) . But especially when I played some multi-channel SACD, I noted that my bass seemed sort of to lose some of its life, that the music clearly moved me so much more before engaging the EQ.

Then I setup the SMS-1 using a main speaker crossover of 40 Hz 6 dB. NICE! Multi-channel SACD as engaging as ever - thought it was perhaps better than before, but really didn’t do critical comparison yet, just enjoyed, using this setting for all of my music, tv and movie formats.

My audiophile Psychologist buddy Lon Grushko just came over. I showed him how easy the SMS-1 is to setup.
I decided, as we re setup everything, to run main speakers full range with no crossover.

Interesting. We set up the SMS-1 from the “sweet spot” front row center leather recliner spot, as before, but this time main speakers with no crossover, run full range. Then I took microphone over to other five recliners, and to the very back of the room behind the last row of recliners. WOW! The SMS-1 on screen graph showed very little difference
regardless of room position of the microphone. No wonder my bass has always sounded so similar throughout the room!!

Then I put on some multi-channel SACDs, specifically, Steely Dan “Gaucho” and a jazz sampler disc from Telarc
Heads Up label. Immediately Lon, who has spent a number of hours listening to my system especially these discs,
noted that we didn’t even to take the SMS-1 out of my system to compare With vs. Without SMS-1 Eqing, because it was so clear that my system had never ever sounded this good (and it sounded darn good before).

Well, I decided to take out the SMS-1 Eqing but connecting the sub cable from the CB3's Six Shooter output direct to the front left Aerial sub (chained to the other two subs). WOW! Right away, music I used to love, I no longer wanted to listen to. After a minute, I quickly inserted the SMS-1 back in, and WOW music nirvana.

Here's what Lon had to say about comparing multi-channel SACD music EQed with the SMS-1 vs not using the EQ:

"With the EQ: Overall, more coherent, more of a seamless integration between subs and main speakers, end result being a cleaner, smoother performance, with obviously the improved bottom end improving the overall performance of the mids and highs as well. A substantial sonic improvement."

I was hoping for some improvement with the SMS-1 EQ - but this was a very substantial improvement towards being there live. Quite amazing.

Here is my take on the SMS-1. For the most part it will do the job. In some environments like mine, it will cause more problems than it will solve. History, I was using the Behringer Feedback destroyer aka DSP1124p but didn't like the fact that it didn't have a low level cut off since I am using ported subs. I moved to a Symetrix 551E parametric EQ which did have the low level cut off. Both of these PEQ's worked well in flattening out the bass. Then I put in the SMS-1 for the ease of use and low level cut off. In my system the SMS-1 causes huge thumps with my buttkickers everytime there is a change in the bitstream eg from Stereo to DD to DTS etc. I contacted Bryston (I have their SP 1.7 prepro), Guitammer / Buttkicker and Velodyne. The problem occurs only when the SMS-1 is put in. In terms of support Guitammer and especially Bryston have been excellent. I was very disappointed with the support from Velodyne and this was not a one time deal. but on a few occassions. So when I have time, I will put the Symetrix 551 back in and use the AutoEQ portion of the SMS-1 to assist in the recalibration of the Symetrix.

Hi Eric. Guess I'm lucky as the SMS-1 causes no problems at all in my system. I've got five Bryston 7B mono amps as well - and as you say, when it comes to support, no one beats Bryston.

Here is my take on the SMS-1. For the most part it will do the job. In some environments like mine, it will cause more problems than it will solve. History, I was using the Behringer Feedback destroyer aka DSP1124p but didn't like the fact that it didn't have a low level cut off since I am using ported subs. I moved to a Symetrix 551E parametric EQ which did have the low level cut off. Both of these PEQ's worked well in flattening out the bass. Then I put in the SMS-1 for the ease of use and low level cut off. In my system the SMS-1 causes huge thumps with my buttkickers everytime there is a change in the bitstream eg from Stereo to DD to DTS etc. I contacted Bryston (I have their SP 1.7 prepro), Guitammer / Buttkicker and Velodyne. The problem occurs only when the SMS-1 is put in. In terms of support Guitammer and especially Bryston have been excellent. I was very disappointed with the support from Velodyne and this was not a one time deal. but on a few occassions. So when I have time, I will put the Symetrix 551 back in and use the AutoEQ portion of the SMS-1 to assist in the recalibration of the Symetrix.
I had no problems with my Paradigm Servo15+Bryston SP2+SMS-1 at any time. The problem may be with the buttkickers. Were they fed via the SMS-1? If so, why do they need EQ? I know my butt ain't that sensitive.

I had no problems with my Paradigm Servo15+Bryston SP2+SMS-1 at any time. The problem may be with the buttkickers. Were they fed via the SMS-1? If so, why do they need EQ? I know my butt ain't that sensitive.

Kal,

It is partially the buttkicker but then again no :) I thought I nailed it down to one of the Buttkicker amp plus the SMS-1 combo. When I get home I will post the word doc that explains everything in detail with diagrams and my thorough diagnostics. I sent the Word Doc to Bryston, Buttkicker and Velodyne to thoroughly explain the problem. The Short Story: the SP 1.7 LFE unbalanced out feeds the Buttkickers. The SP 1.7 LFE balanced feeds the SMS-1 which then feeds Crown K-1's powering 4 SVS ultra passive subs. I did (do) not want the SMS-1 feeding the Buttkickers because of the 15 Hz cut off / roll off it applies which is great for the ported subs not so good for the Buttkickers which are good to about 5 Hz :) If you guys can solve this issue, it would be greatly appreciated.

Steve - So are you now going to keep the mains at full or go back to "crossed"?

Steve - So are you now going to keep the mains at full or go back to "crossed"?

I did the last setup using mains at full, simply so the SMS-1 would assume
an LFE signal with no crossover of the main speakers - as that's what I get using the Six Shooter for SACD, DVD-A and HD DVD.

For regular redbook CD and DVD and satellite stuff, I am simply using the same EQ settings, but of course a lower sub volume in the CB3 (than for the Six Shooter stuff above). There isn't that much lower than 40 Hz stuff for these
sources anyway.

Steve, once you drop down to analog audio you should stay there. I am not a fan of digital EQ but if it's done while the signal is still in the digital domain, like inside your processor fed via SPDIF, it can achieve excellent results.

Now once it's DAed it should stay analog to the speaker. A good analog EQ does far less sonic damage than converting back to digital, multiplying the data which is required for any gain change and generates larger word sizes, like 40 bits, then rounding back to 20 or 24 bits, then DAing once again. A good analog EQ is a few low noise opamps.

Analog is not bad or obsolete. The same silicon fabrication technology that brought us high speed digital systems has also made very good analog amplifier chips.

Steve, once you drop down to analog audio you should stay there. I am not a fan of digital EQ but if it's done while the signal is still in the digital domain, like inside your processor fed via SPDIF, it can achieve excellent results.

Now once it's DAed it should stay analog to the speaker. A good analog EQ does far less sonic damage than converting back to digital, multiplying the data which is required for any gain change and generates larger word sizes, like 40 bits, then rounding back to 20 or 24 bits, then DAing once again. A good analog EQ is a few low noise opamps.

Analog is not bad or obsolete. The same silicon fabrication technology that brought us high speed digital systems has also made very good analog amplifier chips.

I appreciate that even for low bass, despite the extra DA conversions, that the SMS-1 clearly improves my sonics - but that a similar or better analog bass EQ would do even better. Can you recommend something at reasonable cost with balanced input and output?

I appreciate that even for low bass, despite the extra DA conversions, that the SMS-1 clearly improves my sonics - but that a similar or better analog bass EQ would do even better. Can you recommend something at reasonable cost with balanced input and output?


Look in this catalog www.fullcompass.com. Most pro sound gear is balanced. As for what's best I don't know. I use DBX analog EQs but with my new tube amps I find them best almost flat but I have yet to do a new room sweep with these amps. The Lexicon DC1 has a basic EQ but I leave this out/off as I perfer analog EQ. I also use this product which seems similar to the SMS.

http://www.speakercity.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=SC&Product_Code=SOS

This device now works great with my new (old 1974) sub amp. With the built in sub amps I removed, I wasn't that impressed with it. Never got rid of the boom completly however I now believe this was due to the poor dampning factor of the built in plate amps. Also the auto calibration/setup now takes much longer with the new sub amp. It's almost as if it just gave up on the old amps but now is able to really do some good with quality sub amps.

P.S. I'll be posting my new amplification chain pics soon. The faithful Haflers are in the closet contemplating EBAY sale. LCR is biamped all tube with a tube crossover.

I also use this product which seems similar to the SMS.

http://www.speakercity.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=SC&Product_Code=SOS
It may work well for you but it ain't similar to the SMS. First, it is a single-band PEQ. Second, one has no control as the unit only operates in an autoEQ mode. Third, no bal in/outs.

Let me suggest the Rives PARC (not cheap) as a great analog bass EQ. :D

If anyone is interested here are the details regarding the SMS-1 causing thumping in my system. Since the I wrote the word doc, I determined that it is only partially the Buttkicker Amp at fault as I had the gain levels turned down on the BK amp(s). Who ever can solve this problem - I'll ship them an available (ie not discontinued) DVD, DVD-A, SACD or HD DVD, BluRay disc of their choice!

Steve,

When you have a moment, download Outlaw Audio's guide to the SMS-1.

http://pdf.outlawaudio.com/outlaw/docs/sms1guide.pdf

It's written with some humor, but it will give you an easy and thorough understanding of the Velo unit.

Sanjay

I love mine. I can't think of my HT without it.

Eric,

Do you have a multi-meter? If so set it to measure DC and with the SMS powered check its XLR INPUT and see if you measure any appreciable DC between Pin 1 and Pin 2 and then check again between Pin 1 and Pin 3.

It kind of sounds like it might be leaking some DC which is causing the problems. You might check your other components to see if they are passing DC as well.

Shawn

It may work well for you but it ain't similar to the SMS. First, it is a single-band PEQ. Second, one has no control as the unit only operates in an autoEQ mode. Third, no bal in/outs.

Let me suggest the Rives PARC (not cheap) as a great analog bass EQ. :D

Well shoot, I guess I should give the SMS a try. I do run balanced lines to my sub amp and use this to do it. http://www.rdlnet.com/product.php?page=45 I have the opposite box on the other end at the amps. I'm wired for stereo subs and I bridge L&R at the rack. I wanted the future ability to run stereo subs if desired.

Eric,

Do you have a multi-meter? If so set it to measure DC and with the SMS powered check its XLR INPUT and see if you measure any appreciable DC between Pin 1 and Pin 2 and then check again between Pin 1 and Pin 3.

It kind of sounds like it might be leaking some DC which is causing the problems. You might check your other components to see if they are passing DC as well.

Shawn

Shawn

Thanks for the suggestion. Yes I do have a multi meter ($10 analog jobber). With just the SMS-1 powered on there is 1.8 V DC across pin 1 to pin 2 and 1.5 V DC across pin 1 to pin 3. I trust I shouldn't see any DC across these pins? What are my next steps? Only when the SMS-1 is inserted in the system do I get the thumping so logic seems to point that the SMS-1 is the culprit.

Eric,

No, you should not have DC levels like that on the input (or output) of the SMS-1. The DC is passing into your other amps and is causing the popping/thumping.

The SMS is most likely defective. Exchange it or send it back to Velodyne to be repaired. Make a note of the high DC offset from the unit.

Shawn

Eric,

No, you should not have DC levels like that on the input (or output) of the SMS-1. The DC is passing into your other amps and is causing the popping/thumping.

The SMS is most likely defective. Exchange it or send it back to Velodyne to be repaired. Make a note of the high DC offset from the unit.

Shawn

Shawn - thanks for your help. Hoping this will resolve the problem. I now need to deal with Velodyne or the dealer. Luckily I have a few friends that have SMS-1's so I will see if I can borrow their units first.

It may work well for you but it ain't similar to the SMS. First, it is a single-band PEQ. Second, one has no control as the unit only operates in an autoEQ mode. Third, no bal in/outs.

Let me suggest the Rives PARC (not cheap) as a great analog bass EQ. :D
Rives offers EQ for for 6 channels with the first PARC providing power for the second 4 channel unit. I do not know what the specs on the Velodyne unit are but the Rives specs are very good. I do not see may people using them. Rives seems to choose room treatments in the designs most of the the time even in the mega-buck rooms I have seen.

Rives offers EQ for for 6 channels with the first PARC providing power for the second 4 channel unit. I do not know what the specs on the Velodyne unit are but the Rives specs are very good. I do not see may people using them. Rives seems to choose room treatments in the designs most of the the time even in the mega-buck rooms I have seen.

The Parc (2 channel) retails at $3,200 and the Parc+ (4 channel add on unit) retails at $3,200. That's why not too many folks use them, the price. But I'm sure they're worth it for our systems, we just ain't gonna pay it.

The Parc (2 channel) retails at $3,200 and the Parc+ (4 channel add on unit) retails at $3,200. That's why not too many folks use them, the price. But I'm sure they're worth it for our systems, we just ain't gonna pay it.Yeah. You gotta draw the line somewhere!! :rolleyes:

In any case, the PARC is sufficiently transparent that you can use it with main channel speakers up to 350Hz, iirc, and is more useful than a dedicated sub EQ. I, too, wish it was more affordable.

Kal

I did (do) not want the SMS-1 feeding the Buttkickers because of the 15 Hz cut off / roll off it applies which is great for the ported subs not so good for the Buttkickers which are good to about 5 Hz :) .

Eric. You should check which software version you are running on the SMS-1. The latest firmware v2.12 will allow you to set the high pass filter to 5hz though the graph will only show data from 15hz up. It would simplify your setup.

Eric. You should check which software version you are running on the SMS-1. The latest firmware v2.12 will allow you to set the high pass filter to 5hz though the graph will only show data from 15hz up. It would simplify your setup.

John,

Thanks for the suggesion, I knew about the firmware to bring the cut off down to 5 Hz but this won't help my ported subs which are tuned at 16 hz so I need to leave it at 15 Hz. I will be contacting Velodyne and going to another members house to measure his SMS-1. He is using a similar prepro as mine and is also running the SMS-1 and Buttkickers.

You should not have a problem Eric. I have my Ultra tuned to 12 hz with the Sms filter at 5hz without any issues. With your 4 colocated cylinders they should be well protected. Many users have reported good results. Also, you might want to try the 12hz setting because of the subs more linear FR.

For the cost and improvement the SMS-1 is a revolutionary product and with the abilty to dowload upgrades should be a killer as it evolves.

Maybe someone here can help me. I have 2 Vandersteen 2w's in a room that is over 5500 cubic feet. Placement hasn't really done much. I was thinking about trying an Sms-1. I don't know if the 2w's will allow it, in as much, as they have a very unusual setup. Anybody know?

Maybe someone here can help me. I have 2 Vandersteen 2w's in a room that is over 5500 cubic feet. Placement hasn't really done much. I was thinking about trying an Sms-1. I don't know if the 2w's will allow it, in as much, as they have a very unusual setup. Anybody know?

Steve.

The SMS-1 can support multiple subs (eg sub outs) but this is measuring the two subs as "one" so it will make the same adjustments to both. You can daisy chain two SMS-1's so each sub is calibrated independently with the mic in your sweet spot. There is another thread in the sub section on what is preferred - bass traps or the SMS-1 and many of the respondents suggested Bass Traps first and then the SMS-1.

If you are going to use 2 subs can the Rives Parc handle both subs?? with my Meridian 861-4.2- would I be better off using the parc or 2 SMS-1-?? thanks gary

If you are going to use 2 subs can the Rives Parc handle both subs?? with my Meridian 861-4.2- would I be better off using the parc or 2 SMS-1-?? thanks gary

The SMS-1 allows you to connect one sub balanced or three subs single-ended!!!

Anthony Grimani,noted acoustics expert, states that you should only use one sub. I now agree - although you can place multiple subs chained if your subs allow it. So I use three Aerial subs - thanks to the SMS-1, I just placed them
side by side about 10 inches off the front screen wall to the left of my Aerial CC5 center speaker. WOW! The frequency response is so smooth that I don't even need the SMS-1in my system. I used the SMS-1 to boost by 2 dB at 16, 20 and 32 Hz only, as some reviews I read suggested raising level only that much, if at all, as otherwise sub amps may clip some. So I really don't even need to keep the SMS-1 connected. Even if one doesn't keep it in the system, what a fantastic objective diagnostic tool it is!!!

Initially I retained my prior sub placement, inside both front Aerial 10Ts and
the third sub by the front screen wall to the left of the center CC5 speaker.
I reversed phase on the front right sub but I still had some irregularities I didn't like. So this AM I did the heavy work moving an Aerial sub to my listening position, and then moving all 3 Aerial subs side by side as discussed above.

For Theta Compli SACD and DVD-Audio, and Toshiba HD DVD, using multi-channel analog outs and Theta Six Shooter, I ended up keeping Compli internal analog speaker settings on "large" (I tried "small", but the SACD sub output sound level is way way too low this way and doesn't sound right, so kept large, and sounds fantastic), and for HD DVD tried "small" with 80 Hz crossover and sound lacked dynamics so kept "large". The above SMS-1 setup seems to sound fantastic with all sources although I will certainly as time goes perhaps play with it some and fine tune per source.

Steely Dan "Gaucho" multi-channel SACD never ever sounded so good!!!
I can play it up all the way if I want on the CB3 volume and its so loud but so live without strain!!! Unreal. Watched "Lucky Slevin" (or something like that, with Bruce Willis) on DVD and the dynamics were breathtaking, easily better than ever.
Watched the past few episodes of "Lost" and never sounded as good or dynamic.

I don't have frequency response problems above 100 Hz. Below that level, I had the not untypical low bass problems one has in placing stereo or multiple speakers for excellent imaging. The SMS-1 provides an easy way to diagnose, properly place subs, and correct the "minor" resulting discrepancies and then you can sell the SMS-1 if you like, or keep it to impress folks.

I don't know if the Rives Parc gives you the ease of an on screen display, microphone, etc. that makes the SMS-1 so darn easy, and relatively cheap, to use.

Lets discuss what I did in using the SMS-1 and hi pass/low pass crossovers.

My Theta CB3, for digital sources, allows me phenomenal flexibility in setting crossovers: Choices of 40, 50, 63 and 80 Hz per each crossover type.
Phase Perfect, also choice of slopes 6, 12, 18 and 24 dB (due to technical mumbo jumbo I do not pretend to understand, the forgoing is the high pass, and the low pass is always a 6 dB slope). Linkwitz-Riley, slopes of 12 and 24 dB. Butterworth, separate high pass with slopes of 6, 12, 18 and 24 dB, and low pass same slopes.

What's really easy to do is simply change the Hz crossover and slope on the fly as you watch the SMS-1 frequency response screen. In doing this, I verified that
two crossover combinations look best re frequency response:

1. Phase Perfect 80 Hz 24 dB (but the low pass is only 6 dB slope)
2. Butterworth Hi Pass 63 Hz 18 dB, Low Pass 80 Hz 6 dB

Both of the above had about the same overall frequency response graph overall.
On redbook CD, my impression was both sound great but #1 a bit better.Theta says that all things being equal frequency response wise, Phase Perfect should sound the best for technical reasons.

Turns out I don't need any bass traps. HAAAAA!!!@@@

Turns out I don't need any bass traps. HAAAAA!!!@@@SMS-1 cannot tell you that since it cannot display or correct decay anomalies.

SMS-1 cannot tell you that since it cannot display or correct decay anomalies.

That's why you write for the mags. HA!

So what's the next step spending more bucky bucks to display and correct decay anomalies, to determine need for bass traps, since I have good frequency response?

That's why you write for the mags. HA!

So what's the next step spending more bucky bucks to display and correct decay anomalies, to determine need for bass traps, since I have good frequency response?Well, you could use RoomEQWizard (freeware) with your laptop+soundcard to find out. All you need is a microphone or the RS SPL meter.

But, mebbe, you don't want to know. ;)

"So what's the next step spending more bucky bucks to display and correct decay anomalies,"

Something that displays 3d measurements instead of just 2d. In other words something that displays frequenct response over time in the form of a waterfall display or something along those lines. ETF can do this for example.

You can have flat FR at some locations but still have excessive decay problems at that same location. This is why both Lexicon and Meridian's Room EQ set their filters based on decay times and not based on simple FR measurements.

Shawn

It would be interesting to see a pic of the SMS-1 graphical display with subs and with subs plus mains before equalization and after equalization. I suspect the before shots will indicate several room nodes which should be flattened with bass traps and acoustical treatments. Most users would suggest acoustical treatments first followed by equalization for superior sound.

Perhaps some interesting reading:

http://www.realtraps.com/eq-traps.htm

You can always talk to Terry Montlick and hire his services to do an analysis of your room. It costs less than the sms-1, but you need to put in a refundable deposit to use his measuring gear. No big deal IMO.

I have not done this myself, but it is one of those things that I fully intend to do. I seem to keep putting it off...for like more than a year now. :o

It would be interesting to see a pic of the SMS-1 graphical display with subs and with subs plus mains before equalization and after equalization. I suspect the before shots will indicate several room nodes which should be flattened with bass traps and acoustical treatments. Most users would suggest acoustical treatments first followed by equalization for superior sound.

OK. I won't argue that. I have from a frequency standpoint flattened the curve where I had some problems, between 50 to 100 Hz, by using the 80 Hz 24 dB Phase Perfect crossover. But I assume it would be better to put in a few bass traps to flatten a few humps in that area of frequency response rather than using the higher and steeper crossover that I'm using. But it sure sounds good as is!!!!

It would be interesting to see a pic of the SMS-1 graphical display with subs and with subs plus mains before equalization and after equalization. I suspect the before shots will indicate several room nodes which should be flattened with bass traps and acoustical treatments. Most users would suggest acoustical treatments first followed by equalization for superior sound.

Out of curiousity, what high and low pass crossovers are you folks using with your main speakers and subwoofers? How has the crossover affected the
frequency response, etc. and musicality of your system?

Steve,

"what high and low pass crossovers are you folks using with your main speakers and subwoofers?"

Between mains and L/R subs is 24dB/octave for both high and low pass.

I tri-amp my L/C/Rs. Woofer to mid is crossed with an elliptic filter of around 210dB/octave at 500hz for the first 30-35dB of attenuation then after the arc it is eigth order rolloff. Mid to tweeters are at 8kHz also elliptic but at around 90dB octave for the first 30-35dB of attenuation then after the arc it is also eigth order rolloff.

One of these days I'm going to increase the rolloff between mains and subs as well.

Shawn

I'm sure it does sound excellent. :) If you want to ramp the quality up yet another notch, it would be worthwhile studying room acoustics and treatments in an effort to keep equalization to a minimum. It may also give you the flexability to get away with a lower crossover and fewer artifacts near the crossover point.

This is what the article I posted above speaks about.

The SMS-1 truly is a wonderful user-friendly product. I found that I get a different response at a lower volume level. This is something I'd never have realized had I not used the SMS-1. My solution will be to simply keep the level up!

Furthermore, I have been able to set my two subs up in stereo to be just about perfectly flat all the up to where I have them blend in with my mains [all of this is for 2-channel], and all using the subs' own on-board controls. I would have never figured this out without using the SMS-1's tone generator, microphone, and graphical display. Now, I don't even use the SMS-1's EQ functions! There's simply no need since I got it flat without it.

My point is that without the SMS-1, I'd never have gotten my dual sub set-up tuned this well. It is just an amazing tool, and well worth the investment.

The SMS-1 truly is a wonderful user-friendly product. I found that I get a different response at a lower volume level. This is something I'd never have realized had I not used the SMS-1. My solution will be to simply keep the level up!

Furthermore, I have been able to set my two subs up in stereo to be just about perfectly flat all the up to where I have them blend in with my mains [all of this is for 2-channel], and all using the subs' own on-board controls. I would have never figured this out without using the SMS-1's tone generator, microphone, and graphical display. Now, I don't even use the SMS-1's EQ functions! There's simply no need since I got it flat without it.

My point is that without the SMS-1, I'd never have gotten my dual sub set-up tuned this well. It is just an amazing tool, and well worth the investment.

That's what I told you above in this very thread. HA!

Yes - I am genuinely surprised at my own results...pleasantly surprised. Although I am not EQ'ing the subs, I just can't imagine getting them sorted that easily without having the SMS-1.

BTW - I only worked from one location since I am the only one who gives a hoot in my household. I bet if I moved the mic around the response would change, and some EQ could help.

Thanks to the help of the SMS-1, I am currently using only two of my three Aerial subs and they are perfectly placed so that they are perfectly flat (based on subwoofer output, not in conjunction with main speakers, as my sources primarily are 5.1 with LFE channel). The rear of each sub is about 15" out from the front screen wall. And they are just to each side of my Aerial CC5 center speaker, with each sub front maybe 6" in front of the rear of the CC5. And each sub alone also measures flat, as well as together. And the second sub adds 3 dB volumewise, which is what is expected when they're flat.

Sure sounds good!!!@@@

Unless I can find the perfect flat location for a third sub, I'll sell it.

Steve,

Sell the SMS-1!

Go with the QSC DSP-30 and have Mark Seaton come by and set it up for you. I am also using 2 Aerial subs (in the front) and have to say what Mark did was nothing short of FANTASTIC.

Right now my Subs are FACING EACH OTHER and about 18" apart 4" off the back wall. By facing them together Mark was able to nearly double the output and the response is so flat and well integrated into the mains it is unbelievable to listen to. Benefits of the DSP-30 are significant over the SMS-1 in the types of things it can do to the signal, also Mark uses it to not only flatten the response of the subs, but to integrate them into the Mains as well. Never heard anything so good - NEVER.

If you are not familiar with Mark, check out his threads in the Sub-Woofer sub-forum.

Drop him a line.

Steve,

Sell the SMS-1!

Go with the QSC DSP-30 and have Mark Seaton come by and set it up for you. I am also using 2 Aerial subs (in the front) and have to say what Mark did was nothing short of FANTASTIC.

Right now my Subs are FACING EACH OTHER and about 18" apart 4" off the back wall. By facing them together Mark was able to nearly double the output and the response is so flat and well integrated into the mains it is unbelievable to listen to. Benefits of the DSP-30 are significant over the SMS-1 in the types of things it can do to the signal, also Mark uses it to not only flatten the response of the subs, but to integrate them into the Mains as well. Never heard anything so good - NEVER.

If you are not familiar with Mark, check out his threads in the Sub-Woofer sub-forum.

Drop him a line.

NOT FAMILIAR WITH MARK SEATON? I knew Mark back when he was a college student. Mark has hung out with me at CES, but I haven' t made it in a few years.
He has a standing offer to visit when he comes to AZ some time. Someday!!!

To clarify, when I say my two Aerial subs that I'm currently using are now perfectly flat, whether alone or using both at once - I mean perfectly flat without using any EQ of the SMS-1, which was used only to verify frequency response as I have need to use its EQ features. HA! :eek:

Steve,

You are using measurements now? Is the sky falling???? Did I just see a pig fly by my window?????? (Ducking and covering......) ;)

As far as 'perfectly' flat that sounds like a good starting point.... but.... trying measuring at greater resolution then 1/3 octave. 1/3 octave can hide a lot of what is going on. Also the key is to try and get response like that as you normally use the system. In other words with both the mains and subs playing. If you are getting peaks/dips when the mains are on with the subs you still have some work to do. (Hint: Use sharper crossover slopes...... )

I don't think the SMS will do it but if you ever get the chance try measuring in the time domain (3D) as well. You won't neccessarily see resonance problems in the frequency domain (2D), except at a few points in the room, but resonances cause audible problems just about everywhere in the room.

Good luck,

Shawn

Doesn't the SMS-1 have 1/6 octave spacing? That's one of its better attributes.

I haven't played with the SMS, just going by what I saw in the manual the labeling on the OSD corresponded to 1/3 octave. If it can do 1/6 octave this is better but to really see room effects you need even finer then that more like 1hz resolution. 1/6 octave from 20-40 is 3.3 hz per band, in the next octave it is 6.6 hz per band.

Shawn

Doesn't the SMS-1 have 1/6 octave spacing? That's one of its better attributes.Sure, for the filters but not for the display. Just look at the q adjustment range.

Didn't see this thread til now...

"If you have a peak at say 45hz, the SMS-1 will completely miss it as it is only going to sweep at 40hz and then go to a50 hz and 60 hz, etc."

The display might miss it, but the sweep is audibly and obviously continuous.

"In my system the SMS-1 causes huge thumps with my buttkickers everytime there is a change in the bitstream eg from Stereo to DD to DTS etc."

Same here, as wall as a window rattling thump from my 18" subs. I called Velo, they didn't seem very interested, so I returned it.

"Go with the QSC DSP-30 and have Mark Seaton come by and set it up for you."

That might be tough to make happen now that Mark is up to his ears in 2 speaker companies.

I was all set to go with the purchase of an SMS-1 to EQ my subs under 80Hz. However, I am intrigued by the RoomEQWizard (REW) Software and using something like the Behringer Feedback Destroyer (BFD) to achieve the same goal.

I am fairly new to this game and I wonder about the learning curve - but I get the impression that while the SMS-1 is likely to achieve good results very quickly, the software/Feedback Destroyer method possibly has a higher ceiling (in terms of results) - although it will take longer to achieve them. I noticed that there seem to be a fair number of guides on how to make use of REW including its integration with various BFD models.

Can anyone pass comments about the various options - especially the REW/BFD option given that the SMS-1 seems to be much more of a widely understood animal? DO I have to be a rocket sciencist to achieve good results with the REW/BFD?

Kind regards,

Ash