This forum is so much centered around audio. I was wondering if I could get a show of hands of who has projection devices that exceed 20K.

The new devices coming out seem to be very very cool especially the SIM HT 5000 and Titan 250 and 500. This isn't even mentioning the Runco devices.

Art

Dont forget the 4K Sony projectors. I'll bet there's a few out there!

i'm an 'audio' guy first and formost; but last winter i placed an order for a 'Ruby' to replace my Marantz S3 in my modest little HT.........then i got the 'hots' for another set of expensive speaker cables.....i started reading about 'issues' with the Ruby......then i got cold feet and cancelled my Ruby order.

from time to time i've tried to check out the progress on the 1080p Front Projector side as well as the software side......and all the connectivity issues.

for those of you keeping track of all these elements i have a question; when is the right time to step up to a SOTA projector? i could spend $20k if that was considerably better than the Ruby......but are things settled enough for the time to be right now?

my Marantz seems fine for now but i would like to do something 'more' in the next 6 to 9 months.

three years ago a when i moved into my new (to me) home i decided the time had come to 'ditch' my Sony D50 CRT and switch to the Marantz S3 and looking back i think i got into that at a good time where everything worked correctly and i didn't have to be a 'trail-blazer'. when is the right time for the next step?

hopefully my question makes sense.

does the pursuit of SOTA 1080p make sense right now?

You might want to take a look at the new Marantz VP11S 1080P DLP Projector (http://us.marantz.com/Products/1828.asp) . It has spectacular PQ and is shipping now. MSRP $20K.
:)

This forum is so much centered around audio. I was wondering if I could get a show of hands of who has projection devices that exceed 20K.

The new devices coming out seem to be very very cool especially the SIM HT 5000 and Titan 250 and 500. This isn't even mentioning the Runco devices.

Art
We were really impressed with the Titans at CEDIA. The demo has convinced me to recommend "Constant Height" 12' wide screens with the 250 and the appropriate lens etc. I was sitting 10 to 12 feet away from this combo and it looked great!! Of course a few bucks are involved!
I am also hoping Sony upgrades the Qualia 004 to something competitive with this in the near future.

Mike,

As far as taking the "jump" right-now, I'd say you're safe. The only connectivity issues are regarding HDMI 1.3- which are primarily audio-related. As of yet, the "analog hole" has not been shut (meaning that component video outputs are still active to full resolution on HD DVD and Blu-Ray players) but it probably will be within the next couple years (by the studios).
1080P displays: pick your poison, there's DLP, LCOS, SXRD, and LCD all basically available right now. After being at CEDIA, I have to say that we're probably waiting for the manufacturing to ramp-up on both the projectors and the scalers. If you're budget-minded :) , there's also a growing second-hand Qualia market, I've noticed. Even by today's standards- it finds itself behind the curve a little on the contrast side, but makes-up for that on the light-output side.
I won't get into the list of "new pieces" that are being talked about already in other forums/threads... but that list is sizeable.

I guess the bottom-line is; whenever you're ready- go ahead and jump into the pool.

Dan

I believe the challenges in choosing projectors in the +20K range are in that the differences between these projectors are in areas not readily apparent to most consumers...way beyond CR (pick your definition), lumens, and throw distance. Clearly, there are two basic technologies, each with their own weak points (DLP vs the LCOS/DILA/SXRD). Once past the basic technology, the differences between models/brands take some effort to sort through. In the DLP world, the chips are the same. The differences appear in somewhat less obvious areas such as light paths and the quality of the optics. Even within the optics area, is the difference between a $7000 lens and a $15K lens obvious on a 96" wide screen? A 168" wide screen? As well, many are sold as projectors while some are sold as "projection systems" (meaning the external scaler is a part of the equation for both cost and PQ). This leads to a comparison of scaler/projector interaction along with what type of granularity is available to properly calibrate the unique screen, projector, scaler and room combination all of this is going to end up in. To a large extent, once you have the scaler in the mix, now the judgement of scaler quality must really focus on the capabilities of the scaler with respect to the majority of its use (ie, how well does the scaler interact with the projector and how good is the scaler at handling your primary video source(s) material). All of these nitty items must be investigated and then the manufacturer's "corporate culture" must the thrown into the mix (ie, is the supplier a company focused on video quality and customer care or a mass manufacturer of whatever might sell...and don't call us we won't call you).

I believe the challenges in choosing projectors in the +20K range are in that the differences between these projectors are in areas not readily apparent to most consumers...way beyond CR (pick your definition), lumens, and throw distance. Clearly, there are two basic technologies, each with their own weak points (DLP vs the LCOS/DILA/SXRD). Once past the basic technology, the differences between models/brands take some effort to sort through. In the DLP world, the chips are the same. The differences appear in somewhat less obvious areas such as light paths and the quality of the optics. Even within the optics area, is the difference between a $7000 lens and a $15K lens obvious on a 96" wide screen? A 168" wide screen? As well, many are sold as projectors while some are sold as "projection systems" (meaning the external scaler is a part of the equation for both cost and PQ). This leads to a comparison of scaler/projector interaction along with what type of granularity is available to properly calibrate the unique screen, projector, scaler and room combination all of this is going to end up in. To a large extent, once you have the scaler in the mix, now the judgement of scaler quality must really focus on the capabilities of the scaler with respect to the majority of its use (ie, how well does the scaler interact with the projector and how good is the scaler at handling your primary video source(s) material). All of these nitty items must be investigated and then the manufacturer's "corporate culture" must the thrown into the mix (ie, is the supplier a company focused on video quality and customer care or a mass manufacturer of whatever might sell...and don't call us we won't call you).

WOOPS! Art was all set to move from CRT to digital, but Dennis scared him off!!!

You might want to take a look at the new Marantz VP11S 1080P DLP Projector (http://us.marantz.com/Products/1828.asp) . It has spectacular PQ and is shipping now. MSRP $20K.
:)

I have issues with blitzfarben so that one won't work for me. Also this really isn't the projector for the plus 12' screens so I just wanted to throw that in.

Art

My $1500 projector belongs in this thread. Its up high at the end of my room :)

What Art, not one show of hands? Wow. I remember when I first stumbled onto this part of the forum and when I got my first $20K piece of A/V gear. Now it seems like everything is migrating there. The only things that have really kept the uber high-end in check in video so far has been the rapid pace of improvement and on the DLP side the fact that everybody has the same chips to work with, making differentiation hard to do.

My $1500 projector belongs in this thread. Its up high at the end of my room :)

Alan,
I've actually often wondered what is the definition of high end. I've seen more than a few girls walking away who fit at least one usage ! :D

http://www.webgirlsonline.net/uzgals/gals/keyra_agustina_webcam_ass_1/keyra_agustina_01_005.jpg

Sorry I couldn't resist ! :o



What Art, not one show of hands? Wow. I remember when I first stumbled onto this part of the forum and when I got my first $20K piece of A/V gear. Now it seems like everything is migrating there. The only things that have really kept the uber high-end in check in video so far has been the rapid pace of improvement and on the DLP side the fact that everybody has the same chips to work with, making differentiation hard to do.

This is why the SIM and Titan look so similar I'm assuming. I just felt as though the HT 5000 had more light output.


I really want to see more talk here about some of these devices. I'm still facinated at how incredibly complex these devices are ( particuarly the three chips) and loudspeaker sells for more.

Art

I think we are just now gaining credibility in the Digital world to even say "high end". I remember back in the mid 90's mags wouldn't even entertain reviews of digital projectors. We've come a long way. The current devices are astonishing but they will indead keep getting better! And with video, unlike audio, theres no smoke and mirrors...well at least not smoke ;)

Great picture Art!

jesus Art... now i wont be able to concentrate all day long!

My $1500 projector belongs in this thread. Its up high at the end of my room :)
Alan,

But is it at the Ultra-Hi-End of the room? :)

I believe the challenges in choosing projectors in the +20K range are in that the differences between these projectors are in areas not readily apparent to most consumers...way beyond CR (pick your definition), lumens, and throw distance. Clearly, there are two basic technologies, each with their own weak points (DLP vs the LCOS/DILA/SXRD). Once past the basic technology, the differences between models/brands take some effort to sort through. In the DLP world, the chips are the same. The differences appear in somewhat less obvious areas such as light paths and the quality of the optics. Even within the optics area, is the difference between a $7000 lens and a $15K lens obvious on a 96" wide screen? A 168" wide screen? As well, many are sold as projectors while some are sold as "projection systems" (meaning the external scaler is a part of the equation for both cost and PQ). This leads to a comparison of scaler/projector interaction along with what type of granularity is available to properly calibrate the unique screen, projector, scaler and room combination all of this is going to end up in. To a large extent, once you have the scaler in the mix, now the judgement of scaler quality must really focus on the capabilities of the scaler with respect to the majority of its use (ie, how well does the scaler interact with the projector and how good is the scaler at handling your primary video source(s) material). All of these nitty items must be investigated and then the manufacturer's "corporate culture" must the thrown into the mix (ie, is the supplier a company focused on video quality and customer care or a mass manufacturer of whatever might sell...and don't call us we won't call you).

I can only assume certain technologies have one of their primary limits in light output currently.

SXRD and Dila I assume can only provide enough lumens for a certain screen width, what that screen width is I would be curious to know.

Also 3 chip DLP provides enough lumens for a different larger screen width and I would be curious to know what screen width is their current "sweet spot".

I would assume on a 96" wide screen SXRD and Dila would compare quite favaorably with 3 chip DLP, so at what point does 3 chip DLP become relevant?

The underlying technology is not "lumens" limited. That is a manufacturer choice with respect to market position and price position of their individual model.

Dennis:

Correct, I should have said current manufacturer's lumens for SXRD and Dila or better yet more specific to JVCHD10K, and the Sony Qualia, Ruby and Pearl, I stand corrected.

Dont forget the 4K Sony projectors. I'll bet there's a few out there!

Also don't forget the original buyers of the Qualia, HD2K's and Meridian/Faroudja's. I assume the original poster was talking about MSRP or original purchase price and not current resale price which is always going to be significantly less with a digital.

Mike,

As far as taking the "jump" right-now, I'd say you're safe. The only connectivity issues are regarding HDMI 1.3- which are primarily audio-related. As of yet, the "analog hole" has not been shut (meaning that component video outputs are still active to full resolution on HD DVD and Blu-Ray players) but it probably will be within the next couple years (by the studios).
1080P displays: pick your poison, there's DLP, LCOS, SXRD, and LCD all basically available right now. After being at CEDIA, I have to say that we're probably waiting for the manufacturing to ramp-up on both the projectors and the scalers. If you're budget-minded :) , there's also a growing second-hand Qualia market, I've noticed. Even by today's standards- it finds itself behind the curve a little on the contrast side, but makes-up for that on the light-output side.
I won't get into the list of "new pieces" that are being talked about already in other forums/threads... but that list is sizeable.

I guess the bottom-line is; whenever you're ready- go ahead and jump into the pool.

Dan

I would agree.

Coming from the marantz, which is a very nice display but at 720p doesn't really cut it, in my opinion, unless you're sitting pretty far away to avoid seeing pixels. There are a lot of new choices coming out soon in the 10K range and below that should be very very nice. And in the more expensive ranges as well, though since you don't have a large screen, there is less of a need to get a big light cannon, so something like the Ruby or now the Pearl, or the new JVC or one of many new 1080p projectors coming out soon should work very very well for you. Also, if you're not at all bothered by rainbow on your current MArantz, that opens the options for 1-chip 1080pDLPs which should also look awesome and work great for you.

We're definitely past the trailblazing point for 1080p displays. Sure 1080pDLP is sort of brand new, but the performance is very high, and the LCOS stuff has improved a lot since the 004 hit the market.

That being said, have you gotten any more treatments for your HT room? As I recall that was something you were looking into, don't forget to do that. :)

My retired CRT, Barco 812, is waaayyy over the $20k boundary by a number of multiples. It is currently hanging unused in my old cinema. The new cinema will be digital, and will again be $20k+, but only just and based on UK->US exchange rates, but it won't be the highest-end available. As I've stated elsewhere, I don't see any point buying into the highest-end (highest-cost) digital projection when things are changing so quickly and we can expect better performance for less money in the short-term. I'm going for the mid-end, high performance, and will then sit it out for another 12 months or so.

Mark

As I've stated elsewhere, I don't see any point buying into the high-end (high-cost) digital projection when things are changing so quickly and we can expect better performance for less money in the short-term. I'm going for the mid-end, high performance, and will then sit it out for another 12 months or so.

Mark

Mark

The only flaw in this thinking is that this will be true for the foreseeable future. Every few months we will see better CR, fewer artifacts, better light output ,smaller, quieter,cheaper. It's a great thing and ugly at the same time. Those who paid 30,000 USD for a Qualia one year ago have serious competition and superior performance in many ways from devices costing much less, even nearly an order of magnitude less.

Art

Art, absolutely, and that's my point. I see my projector purchases as stepping-stones towards the "ultimate projector", however many years down the line that may be, so I buy at a comfortable price level (for me) from which I'd be happy to move relatively quickly should something significant appear. But If I splash $50k on a projector NOW I'm going to want to stick with it much longer than I'd want simply because of the price paid. I can hop $10-$20k projectors relatively regularly but I can't, or more accurately, won't, hop $50k projectors...

Mark

I understand. I'm in the same boat. I just bet that a nice projector that can light up a screen in the size range you have ,with quality, will be in excess of 30,000 USD for quite a while. The dynamic black or some kind of DI will be next for the three chips but likely another couple of years. And they will still be that kind of money. I seriously doubt that any purchase will remain near state of the art for any longer than about one year based on the changes in the last four or so. See my problem is I have a limited lifespan. :D

It would be nice to see over 10,000:1 sequential CR and enough light for a 14' screen.

Art

I have already decided that my first stepping-stone is a Projection Design Cineo 3+ 1080p - not sure of price in the US, but I guess just over $20k - 3000 lumens with a potential CR of 7500:1 (but not on my screen). The Cineo is the same as the Action Model 3/dVision1080p but with 500 more lumens.

So, bright enough for my screen with a fantastic 1080p image, but with the usual 1-chip/low-contrast caveats. I accept that I am compromising, but I feel it's a great starting point from which I can enjoy HD movies on a 15' wide screen *NOW*, while keeping my eye out for the next step and giving myself the financial flexibility to be able to take that step.

At the end of the day, I'm here to watch movies. We've put up with crap sources on amazing CRTs for years now... I can put up with amazing sources on crap digitals for a while ;)

Cheers,

Mark

Another thing is that I don't think DLP is going to ultimately give us what we want - I think the long-term solution is something else - LED, SED, SXRD, etc - I want to be in a position to jump technologies as well...

Mark

I currently plan on a 2.35:1 AR screen about 13' wide blending two 9" CRTs and I'll wait and enjoy my setup until a digital comes out that can do 1080p (or better), >30,000:1 w/o DI, and 2000 lumens. I think that with that amount of light you really need the contrast to get very very good blacks.

As with many things in this life, once you've experienced the best you really don't want to go back... in my case I have only experienced the best in one ocasion, and that was my visit to Art's :)

Another thing is that I don't think DLP is going to ultimately give us what we want - I think the long-term solution is something else - LED, SED, SXRD, etc - I want to be in a position to jump technologies as well...

Mark

LCD has the ability to excede all these technologies. Any reflective device like DLP and LCOS will have some light scatter. Although LCOS being half LCD could tame this.

I so disagree. Just when I thought 3 dlp was the Holly Grail they increased the contrast ratio to 5:000>1. The images , even without the xenon bulb are now extraordinary, in a couple of years time 3 dlp will reign. Incidentally they pretty much licked any convergence issues on the units I inspected closely.

LCD is as inorganic as it comes for Home Cinema. LCOS has a smudge to it that quite frankly is pathetic. That Pearl thing is an abomination. To me it all comes down to colorimetry , sufficient dynamic range and MTF. 3 chip dlp it is (with a linear light source).

LCD has the ability to excede all these technologies. Any reflective device like DLP and LCOS will have some light scatter. Although LCOS being half LCD could tame this.

This actually makes sense. As beautiful as the SIM2 3 chip was at CEDIA ,in the bright stuff, there is so much low APL material in movies we still need serious work in that area. Even the LCoS polarizing out to 10,000:1 looked lifeless, unfortunately. Dynamics dynamics,dynamics where oh where can you be ?


Art

I so disagree. Just when I thought 3 dlp was the Holly Grail they increased the contrast ratio to 5:000>1. The images , even without the xenon bulb are now extraordinary, in a couple of years time 3 dlp will reign. Incidentally they pretty much licked any convergence issues on the units I inspected closely.

LCD is as inorganic as it comes for Home Cinema. LCOS has a smudge to it that quite frankly is pathetic. That Pearl thing is an abomination. To me it all comes down to colorimetry , sufficient dynamic range and MTF. 3 chip dlp it is (with a linear light source).

Good to know that DLP is the only "organic" technology. I can finally sleep well at night. All hail Qualio the one true DLP believer and evangelist :D

I so disagree. Just when I thought 3 dlp was the Holly Grail they increased the contrast ratio to 5:000>1. The images , even without the xenon bulb are now extraordinary, in a couple of years time 3 dlp will reign. Incidentally they pretty much licked any convergence issues on the units I inspected closely.

LCD is as inorganic as it comes for Home Cinema. LCOS has a smudge to it that quite frankly is pathetic. That Pearl thing is an abomination. To me it all comes down to colorimetry , sufficient dynamic range and MTF. 3 chip dlp it is (with a linear light source).


Can somebody please translate particularly the last paragraph for me?

What the heck does he mean by a linear light source? You mean light that goes in a straight line as opposed to doing zig-zags?

Dynamics dynamics,dynamics where oh where can you be ?
Art

It's already in thine CRT, turn them on so you can see.

:)

It's already in thine CRT, turn them on so you can see.

:)


So true so true red green and blue with contrast to spare I'm already there. :D

Art

Welcome to the forum Coldmachine. Take my advice with a grain of salt, but you obviously do not have a well trained eye on 3 chip dlp colorimetry. Otherwise you wouldn't be touching the HT5000 with a ten foot pole.

My advice to you would be to work with Alan here in AVSCIENCE and get a DPI TITAN 1080p 250 with a clause that allows you to roll that unit into the future DPI TITAN 800 1080p. The later will be a xenon projector designed from the ground up for maximum contrast.

I know of two or three deals like these. This is not a good point in time to buy a 50-200k 3 chip dlp projector. Too many problems with insufficient contrast, bad xenon lamp qc problems, and random performing newly minted chips.

I advice you as if you were me.

I would not pay much attention to cineramax.

he specializes in rambling incoherent sentences. He wants you to think he is the all knowing oracle but by all accounts here over the years (with no evidence to the contrary) He is just full of crap.

You are full of crap. At least I am doing exactly what I said I would do, the world's greatest home theaters. You just sit there and criticize. Why don't you ask Don Stewart about the TORUS CINEMASCOPE projects, pissant.

if i want to talk about the most technical aspects at Stewart, at least i know that Don is not the one to talk to.

Peter, for years you rave about all you do, but never once have you shown anything even resembling evidence that you have done anything other than sell HT in a box.

Wait, i am mistaken, your RP demo room was impressive. But your postulations and rambling far overcomes that.

I have never stated to do anything than what i do. i do not build theatres, i do not even have one. but i answer questions when people have them and i am well qualified to do that and have taught classes all over the world at trade shows and other places to back up my knowledge. I am faculty for CEDIA and Infocomm. And recognized for my contributions.

So all i am doing is calling it as i see it. go ahead, show one iota of proof to prove me wrong.

You are wrong there the Torus is Don's Baby and the first of several is underway.

http://cineramax.com/images/DVDRECEIVER.jpg

I did sell HTIB the Revox system at 12k, and I proudly stood my ground and not sold any projection systems until such time as 2k 3 dlp became available. I did do the videophile community a great service in-between by promoting or selling the best display technology at the time the Fujitsu Magnum plasma, which fujitsu is clearly very grateful for my enthusiastic support of it's superior technology here, Grove Plasma, and HOHF.

Now the timeis nearly ripe to focus on 1080p 3 chip dlp systems' design, but in a highly imperfect world, no matter how you cut it the SIM and Runco offerings are far from perfect.

I commend Runco on the VX-55 for it's impeccably implemented anamorphics pakage, and documentation, a joy to read. My only concern with this best in class design is it's sub 6:000 to1 on off cr. Which in reality could be at best half of that.

But the facts remain that there are scales of 1 to 10 in the low yields of 1080p chips, and that 2k chip designs will max out at 3,300 on off, which is not enough.

Also the Barco and NEC digital cinema 2k and newer 1080p chassis' that have input card modularity have the most stringent top-down directives to prevent the circumvention of HDCP by the end user. The stricktest directives. These are digital cinema vendors trying to protect the studios which they are wooing.

And that deep color Blue Ray has been announced, and that 3 chip dlp is a natural for deep color hdmi 1.3.

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.engadgethd.com/media/2007/01/1.08.07.sony.sapphire1.jpg

And that selected Elmer Perkins lamps have flicker and low life issues.

What is the prudent videophile to do? Go with the best CR and Colorimetry option for the moment with a clause to trade in said projector into the perfect deep color , xenon iluminated, supercontrast 1080p 3 chipper at a later time this year or 1st Q 2008.

As to my ramblings, you know that English is by far my second language, of which I speak several, considering that, I would say my English is pretty darn good.

You should be a little more tolerant about my strong beliefs that may come across as ramblings.

Proof I have no proof but these empty shells in which I will toil, God and health permitting, despite your and other "Blood Pressure Terrorists" continuos undermining attempts. I hereby giving you and your fellow "BPT's" ample notice, I fully intend to make 2007 the year Miami becomes again the "Home Cinema Capital of the World."

Empty shell:

http://cineramax.com/images/5020%20pool.jpg

wow... i am a blood pressure terrorist. and my high school gym teacher said i would never amount to anything

And my comments on your rambling have nothing to do do with grammer or other language idioms that may work in. I speak a second language myself and care not about phrasing. just content.

Thanks for the welcome dudes. The pj's in question (Runco SC-1 or HT5000 and D80) are for wildly differing apps. The Runco will be to service a 20ft screen. I will have 2 of the Sim2's, one for a games room and one for an appartment in Toronto. My house is just starting construction so i need to make some decisions soon especially concerning CH and curved or not.

My question is are you working with a dealer that is recomending those products exclusively?

The sc-1 has the light output, but so does the Vx-55. Do you need to have an acoustically perforated screen?

Take a look at this company:

www.digitalprojection.com

In your game room application they have the :

http://www.digitalprojection.com/component/option,com_docman/task,doc_download/gid,151/Itemid,57/mode,view/

That projector obliterates the SIM2 in colorimetry. It does so by filtering the light at the light bulb (neither SIM5000 nor RuncoVX-22 presently do this), this is very very crucial as
the projector lamps are UHP and have massive emissions of unwanted green and blue spectrae.

Sure you can calibrate the green and blue down, but that effectively reduces the color bit depth range of the projector. The Titan has a linear color pallete as the filtering is at the light bulb, the correct place in the light path to filter without impacting CR.

The SC-1 is a fantastic projector however it is based on a 2 year old Christie Digital Cinema Design. This has SERIOUS shortcomings in the contrast department. If you were to tweak it to the max (meaning that you could install a reduced aperture plate of 66% reduction at the integrator rod position) in that best case scenario, coupled with a similar aperture reduction in the lens, you could maybe obtain a contrast ratio of 3,300 to 1 which is great, but certainly nowhere near the CR achievable by the Sim5000, Runco Vx-22 and DPI Titan 1080p 250 (aproximately 6:000 to 1).

By designing your cinema around the next generation Titan 800 1080p you will have the same brightness as the Runco Vx-55 but with the 6:000 contrast ratio instead of 3:300 CR.

That is the problem I keep rambling about. Believe me once you see 6,000 to 1 sequential (on/off)CR there is no going back to 3:300 or 2:200 to 1.

Therein lies the puzzler.

The upcoming projector I am describing should be out by next April. Maybe this year end.

Keep in mind that MTF, the capacity of a projected image to exhibit maximum sharpness at very high frequecies (those leading up to 1080p) through contrast detail is not only projector dependent. It is screen dependent and totally destroyed by the perforations in the screen that begin competing with the superfine pixels. It is sheer lunacy at this point specially on a 20 foot wide to go with a perf screen. What a waste of photons and RESOLUTION.

You have to go anamorphic, every decent hollywood movie is 2:35 aspect ratio. That means using and anamorphic lens. The lens induces a pincushion distortion and a focus distortion. That is why one way curved screens were reverse-engineered as a stop gap solution to make the projected image match the anamorphic lens.

There is a perfect NO COMPROMISE solution that will begin widespread deployment soon from Stewart filmscreen. The TORUS screen. This is a vaccum custom ray traced screen which takes into account the projector, and the audience seating positions in determining three custom curvatures for the screen plenum shell. Then a vinyl flexible material of up to 2.8 gain is sucked into this shell creating a giant curved screen which is optically coupled to the anamorphic lens. A proximity sensor kicks the ultraquiet vaccum unit on and off as required.

http://cineramax.com/images/Torus%20cinemascope.jpg

It doesn't come any better than this. Fox studios just comissioned 2 of these for experimentation with 3-d digital cinema. The same gentleman that co-invented the screen has recieved 5 academy awards for technical achievement in lense dvelopment, including ewo oscars for essentially the same science used in the Isco lens in question. He thus created an ideal lens / screen /eyeball coupling situation otherwise not achieveable. When Don Stewart goes to the movies he goes to the TORUS movie theater, go figure.

A typical 1.5 gain flat screen has a hotspot in the center and is 40% efficient, the remaining 60% gets bounced around the side walls floor and ceiling. The one way curved screen has a hot band in the middle horizontally, in other words you may get a center reading of 16 and a reading of 13 on the left and right center, but the corners are crap: 7 foot lamberts, in addition a one way curve screen has a visible BELLY because there is no way to support the screen in the middle; this type of screen is only 59% efficient, much is being bounced to the ceiling and floor , a Torus screen is 95% efficient, only 5% is bounced outside the viewing area.

It is a no brainer, 2 very high profile international captains of industry have understood this scenario and jumped into the TORUS bandwagon like that. The rest will be history from now on...

Because the screen is so narrow and generally occupies the uppper 2/3's of the wall of the theater PREVIOUS acoustical anomalies (reflections of sounds into the parabola), that existed in 16x9 and 3x4 aspect ratio are practically eliminated, BY KEEPING ALL SPEAKERS pointing away from the screen, using Large floorstanding D'appolito arrays with far field type dispersions, the sound qualites of the system can surpass those of the perforated screen taht have the speakers behind. I can demo this later this year.

Regarding masking it will be available if your room width is 26 feet or greater as the side panels are solid and swing in from the sides and very closely hug the screen when deployed. Your screen is 20 by 8.5 high, that means a 16 by 9 area of 15 feet, 2.5 feet of masking per side, say 3 with the mechanism.

It's the mackdaddy of screens.

Say CIN

I am not up to speed here as to your resume, perhaps you would share that extensive background of yours with us newbs so we may appreciate your experience that you profess. If that is OK with you.

Thanks for the info.

No dealer recommendations or pushing. The appartment will have the D80 installed next week. The house will not finish construction for another 6mth, so no firm decisions have been made in any area in either games room or HT. DPI is on the list as well as a couple of Stewart solutions. All options are open at the moment.

Say CIN

I am not up to speed here as to your resume, perhaps you would share that extensive background of yours with us newbs so we may appreciate your experience that you profess. If that is OK with you.

You know the Torus has a big folowing in the CRT forum, I did it first in 2 homes in 1992 with Stewart. I have also studied the acoustics of many Torus rooms identyfying the do's and don'ts.

Now with digital PJ anamorphic it is really needed as it was invented for anamorphic projection originally. I am putting a few of these new CINEMASCOPE TORUSSES in this year, the bargain was sealed with Stewart this past week. The entire upper echelon at Stewart considers this development a giant watershed in the history of residential cinemascope. We are all very excited.

Thanks for the info.

DPI is on the list as well as a couple of Stewart solutions. All options are open at the moment.

Good. The titan 1080p 250 is the best piece for the game room. becuase of these filters:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=70399

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=70398

If your house will be ready in 6 mots you are pressed. I'll think of suggestions from DPI. They do have a sc-1 competing PJ tha should have better colorimetry and price performance ratio based on the Lighting HD-35, but with the integrator rod and lens aperture mod plates. In that case it could be an SC-1 killer. If you couple it with the isco super sized 1.25 x lens and their new upcoming realta 2040 by 1080 scaling engine.

Why is it always the same members picking on each other wrangling for position?

It's obvious that Peter spends a lot of time researching mainline and somtimes obscure pieces of equipment, but his facts on the equipment seem honest. Everyone has dreams.

JC

Not just dreams but also opinions regarding what matters most in a high quality set up. I agree Joey. :)

Art

You might want to take a look at the new Marantz VP11S 1080P DLP Projector (http://us.marantz.com/Products/1828.asp) . It has spectacular PQ and is shipping now. MSRP $20K.
:)

I've seen it for a LOT less at accessories4less (Marantz distributor).

I would not pay much attention to cineramax.

he specializes in rambling incoherent sentences. He wants you to think he is the all knowing oracle but by all accounts here over the years (with no evidence to the contrary) He is just full of crap.


I could not Disagree more about the above post, I for one look forward to Cinerama's insightful posts regarding 3 chip 1080P 3 chip DLP's. If you don't like how he says it don't read it or set your ignore button, but to challenge a member saying he is full of crap is not right.

Especially his comparisons of Barco, DP, Runco and Sim2.

if someone is "seemingly" full of crap, should i let them spread info that i feel is wrong, misinformed and otherwise or should i call them out and ask them to show some proof that they are actually knowledgeable?

People come here looking for hard info and good and varied opinions. If somebody thought i was full of crap they should call me out and i will gladly tell people why and how i came to a certain point.

I will draw one example. Peter has been aying for a while that the DPi's are better because the filter at the lamp. But never (to my recollection why it is better) has he given any reasoning why it is better. This tells me he read a marketing blurb somewhere and is just repeating things back.

Intelligent discourse is what this is about. and if you position yourself as the lord god boofoo of the Euro trash HT scene in South FLA, then give us a reason to believe you. THat is all.

I will draw one example. Peter has been aying for a while that the DPi's are better because the filter at the lamp. But never (to my recollection why it is better) has he given any reasoning why it is better. This tells me he read a marketing blurb somewhere and is just repeating things back.

It has been discussed and agreed to that filtering of the lamp to reduce the unusually high green and blue peaks of the uhp is beneficial because it emulates xenon spectrae better. Others have said that you can calibrate for it electronically with minus corrections of the green and blue drive. this presents two problems, the red signal will clip (Cut off) if you by any chance increase the contrast a bit past the calibration point to compensate for programme variants. You are also reducing the effective color bit depth for green and blue. There is no mention of color filtering at the lamp that I know of in any DPI literature. I first heard of it from George Walter (the most straight shooting excutive in the entire dlp industry) as a response to my demands for xenon. At that time I was not fully convinced. But it works, the DPI titan 1080p 250 is a shining example. I have seen it calibrated with a spectrum radiometer to d65. I think the color filtering at the lamp is VERY CLEVER, there is no other point in the optical path where it could be more transparent to the native contrast ratio of the PJ. IOW filter anywhere else and your CR will go down.


Now if some new PJ from DPI is not of my liking I state that, like my first impressions of the Titan 1080p -500, when pressured here for my opinion I said it needed MAJOR WORK. I also predicted that the VX-55 would look like crap as I compared Christie to the Korean Car maker of PJ's. I totally backtracked on my opinion and said that I am a big fan of the vx-55.

I still think that the christie chassis is the worst built chassis compared to those from Nec and Barco (which you can scratch off your list if you wanrt hdcp for), even the DPI Titan. That means that the lighting HD 35 DPI which was co-developed by DPI and NEC is a better chassis which much better color than the christie or the runco sc-1. So when I hear someone wants an SC-1, why? When there is a better projector to be had (co built by DPI and NEC) , with hdcp, and 3,330.1 cr, and the most expensive digital cinema ultra-bulky ISCO1.25x adapter with the latest 2048 x 1080 realta scaler solution to be had for 100 grand less.

Maybe the sc-1 will control more curtains with it's excellent scaler /curtain controller but??

I would suggest your last sentence sounds a bit xenophobic coming from an immigrant to the US.

I don't know much about video display and the brain, but I did see a (small) curved screen used with two projectors used for high end video gaming (rFactor racing sim), and it was really impressive, almost like a surround video solution. I don't know how this translates to movies, but at first glance, it seems to make for the possibility of being better surrounded by the scene.

Absolutely, one of the biggest benefits Don Stewart sees in the TORUS screen is the envelopment factor.

Tony this screen has 3 projectors. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=59200)

yes, I can see a multiple projector screen solution which is more of a one to two seater theatre, but one in which you are enveloped in more video angles... a great future roadmap for gaming/sims and something for all those way overpowered NVDA and Intel processors.
That could be something to get excited about.

I would not pay much attention to cineramax.

he specializes in rambling incoherent sentences. He wants you to think he is the all knowing oracle but by all accounts here over the years (with no evidence to the contrary) He is just full of crap.

And you think you and I have nothing in common ;)

Very good peter, real info instead of ramblings.

your reasons are correct. one could liken it to room treatments over digital treatments. they both can work, but the former is a far better way to do it.

It has been discussed and agreed to that filtering of the lamp to reduce the unusually high green and blue peaks of the uhp is beneficial because it emulates xenon spectrae better. Others have said that you can calibrate for it electronically with minus corrections of the green and blue drive. this presents two problems, the red signal will clip (Cut off) if you by any chance increase the contrast a bit past the calibration point to compensate for programme variants. You are also reducing the effective color bit depth for green and blue. There is no mention of color filtering at the lamp that I know of in any DPI literature. I first heard of it from George Walter (the most straight shooting excutive in the entire dlp industry) as a response to my demands for xenon. At that time I was not fully convinced. But it works, the DPI titan 1080p 250 is a shining example. I have seen it calibrated with a spectrum radiometer to d65. I think the color filtering at the lamp is VERY CLEVER, there is no other point in the optical path where it could be more transparent to the native contrast ratio of the PJ. IOW filter anywhere else and your CR will go down.

Now you compare the candor and depth of knowledge of George as a dlp insider to Runco's Jim Burns. No offense but Jim comes across as a master of cermonies in a three ring Circus. Like the reason given why Sam decided to build the SC-1: "Because he can...". Follow me?

Now if some new PJ from DPI is not of my liking I state that, like my first impressions of the Titan 1080p -500, when pressured here for my opinion I said it needed MAJOR WORK. I also predicted that the VX-55 would look like crap as I compared Christie to the Korean Car maker of PJ's. I totally backtracked on my opinion and said that I am a big fan of the vx-55.

I still think that the christie chassis is the worst built chassis compared to those from Nec and Barco (which you can scratch off your list if you wanrt hdcp for), even the DPI Titan. That means that the lighting HD 35 DPI which was co-developed by DPI and NEC is a better chassis which much better color than the christie or the runco sc-1. So when I hear someone wants an SC-1, why? When there is a better projector to be had (co built by DPI and NEC) , with hdcp, and 3,330.1 cr, and the most expensive digital cinema ultra-bulky ISCO1.25x adapter with the latest 2048 x 1080 realta scaler solution to be had for 100 grand less.

Maybe the sc-1 will control more curtains with it's excellent scaler /curtain controller but??

I would suggest your last sentence sounds a bit xenophobic coming from an immigrant to the US.

Qualio,

As always, it is a pleasure to read your posts. :cool:

I's been a long time and I have since installed a SIM HT 5000 3 Chip DLP and 14' wide scope screen ,ISCO III etc.

I wanted to resurrect this thread to talk about anything out there that is high end projection.

Art

Art,

What is the distance of the closest seating position?

What do you think the sweat spot is (where you sit of course)?


Mike

As far as Barco or DP being the better choice then Sim2, the DPI is not a perfect product, the Sim does many things better and vice versa but what is important to you and your priorities will determine which you prefer. Other important considerations when buying hi end video beyond the product itself, how well does the company work with the end user, how fast do they provide updates for bugs fixes etc These things may be just as important to someone as the equipment and this alone may be enough to stir someone away or to support a manufacture.
While someone may push product A the customers room or likes may prove that product is not the perfect product for them hence the best product is what works for you.

Art,

What do you think the sweat spot is (where you sit of course)?

Mike

Ewwww... :eek:

I for one am anxiously anticipating the forthcoming reviews of the Sim2 CX3-1080. This may be my replacement for my G90.

While Art's HT5000 is undoubtebly the superior big brother, I do not have the available space in my existing media room which is 18x18. I am agonizing over the appropriate screen size for my setup and of course the aspect ratio. I am leaning heavily towards 16:9 as I am viewing HD Sports 80:20 over 2.35:1 movies.

Also thinking about AT screen vs speakers on the sides and below.

Art,

What is the distance of the closest seating position?

What do you think the sweat spot is (where you sit of course)?


MikeIncredibly I'm enjoying very much using my front row at around 11' 4" from the screen watching everything (even 2.35:1 which is 14' wide!).


Art

I's been a long time and I have since installed a SIM HT 5000 3 Chip DLP and 14' wide scope screen ,ISCO III etc.

I wanted to resurrect this thread to talk about anything out there that is high end projection.

Art

For your HT5000 what is the latest release of the software that you have installed and is it worth going to the trouble to upgrade to it?

Thanks

John

For your HT5000 what is the latest release of the software that you have installed and is it worth going to the trouble to upgrade to it?

Thanks

John


Hi John,

What software version are you currently running (in the HT5K)?

Jim

Incredibly I'm enjoying very much using my front row at around 11' 4" from the screen watching everything (even 2.35:1 which is 14' wide!).


Art

:eek:

Doesn't it hurt the eyes as you try to see the left and right edge of the screen at the same time from that close? :D

I would duck watching "The Last of the Mohicans" with the axe coming at me. :p

I would duck watching "The Last of the Mohicans" with the axe coming at me. :p

Now *that* is a film which deserves the 2.35:1 CIH treatment! Look forward to the day it is announced on HD.

Mark

As far as Barco or DP being the better choice then Sim2,
Other important considerations when buying hi end video beyond the product itself, how well does the company work with the end user, how fast do they provide updates for bugs fixes etc These things may be just as important to someone as the equipment and this alone may be enough to stir someone away or to support a manufacture.
While someone may push product A the customers room or likes may prove that product is not the perfect product for them hence the best product is what works for you.

I believe that the Barco DP 1500 with all the mods is the holly grail. I know that Barco has not had the best reputation for customer service in the home theater arena, despite being among the best built. It helps when the customer is not a whinning little girl A), and also the digital cinema units are B) Heavy Duty (far more reliable than the commercial units).

I push what it is best for the client. Heck I am not even a dealer for Barco, but in a decent size room that fits a 2 to 1 lens one would be absolutely insane to consider the inferior.

We are talking a better chip, more horizontal resolution, 12 bit video upscaling with HDCP dual link dvi (latest Gennum processor), 1000 ANSI, 3 to 5,200-1 On/Off, IP control, no loss of resolution/contrast trough anamorphics,TI p7 color calibration, hdsdi in, greater than 2,300 ansi lumens, a REAL xenon bulb with controlled burn.

http://cineramax.com/images/Showeast-Barco-001.jpg

It's is now available in a ceiling version with the exhaust straight out the back.

http://cineramax.com/images/Showeast-Barco-004.jpg

Now if your room won't accomodate 2 to 1 lensing, then time to remodel.

I for one am anxiously anticipating the forthcoming reviews of the Sim2 CX3-1080. This may be my replacement for my G90.


That is the very first time SIM2 has put out a convincing white, excellent projector, must be the DC4 chip.

For the upcoming Sim2 CX3 1080 what do think would be the best matching screen for AT in a 12-14' Wide screen, Possibly Scoped, Possibly Not Scoped, SMX, Screen Research, Stewart Microperf X2, with regard to "best" video application?

For your HT5000 what is the latest release of the software that you have installed and is it worth going to the trouble to upgrade to it?

Thanks

John

We loaded one three weeks ago but I do not remember the number. I will get back later today about it. It did reduce the HDMI handshake issues I was having.I'm using the projector for switching right now but I'd like to go back to using the Anthem which allows OSD of volume etc which I don't have using the projector.

Art

:eek:

Doesn't it hurt the eyes as you try to see the left and right edge of the screen at the same time from that close? :D




All I know is I just sit there reclined and pick up my jaw later.:D

Art

I for one am anxiously anticipating the forthcoming reviews of the Sim2 CX3-1080. This may be my replacement for my G90.




You will not look back for a second ,trust me.:) Literally I've been nothing but awed over and over. It is a great time to be alive if you like home theater and movies. I watched The Sting last weekend and during the entire sequence on the train I said " JC!" about three or four times it looked so beautiful. These SIM three chip are a big step up from even the best CRT projection IMO.

Art

You will not look back for a second ,trust me.:) Literally I've been nothing but awed over and over.... <SNIP>...These SIM three chip are a big step up from even the best CRT projection IMO.

Art

That GOOD!!??

You will not look back for a second ,trust me.:) Literally I've been nothing but awed over and over. It is a great time to be alive if you like home theater and movies. I watched The Sting last weekend and during the entire sequence on the train I said " JC!" about three or four times it looked so beautiful. These SIM three chip are a big step up from even the best CRT projection IMO.

Art

Have you watched Renaissance?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0386741/

Its a partially rotoscoped animation in black and white. Very cool in HD and hugely impressive with a high ANSI machine like the 5K. Good use of sound too. Thats one of my jaw droppers
I'll be taking some screen from that soon.....very impressive indeed.

We loaded one three weeks ago but I do not remember the number. I will get back later today about it. It did reduce the HDMI handshake issues I was having.I'm using the projector for switching right now but I'd like to go back to using the Anthem which allows OSD of volume etc which I don't have using the projector.

Art

My software version is 3.11.45 F (HMN 05). I also have some HDMI handshake issues so I am hoping that a new one is available. Do you load the software in place or do you have to remove the projector from the mount to upgrade?

My software version is 3.11.45 F (HMN 05). I also have some HDMI handshake issues so I am hoping that a new one is available. Do you load the software in place or do you have to remove the projector from the mount to upgrade?

Firmware updates can be loaded in place.

Art

I just picked up another HT5000, made within the last few weeks, and the latest software version is 3.12.17 (F). No issues with ANY of the HDMI connections (tried them all and have four devices hooked up hdmi).

Jim

Have you watched Renaissance?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0386741/

Its a partially rotoscoped animation in black and white. Very cool in HD and hugely impressive with a high ANSI machine like the 5K. Good use of sound too. Thats one of my jaw droppers
I'll be taking some screen from that soon.....very impressive indeed.

I watched this on my CRT stack but not as yet on my HT 5000. Thanks for the heads up.:)

There is another ANSI wet dream ,almost as if the film was made for high ANSI, high light output,devices like three chip DLP and that is Sin City.In fact,when I saw Sin City on the HT 5000 was when I knew I wanted it.

Art

I just picked up another HT5000, made within the last few weeks, and the latest software version is 3.12.17 (F). No issues with ANY of the HDMI connections (tried them all and have four devices hooked up hdmi).

Jim

Great to hear ! I want to go back to the Anthem for the switching ASAP so I should be fine.

art

I watched this on my CRT stack but not as yet on my HT 5000. Thanks for the heads up.:)

There is another ANSI wet dream ,almost as if the film was made for high ANSI, high light output,devices like three chip DLP and that is Sin City.In fact,when I saw Sin City on the HT 5000 was when I knew I wanted it.

Art

One of my favs for sure.

The good thing about Renaissance is that it only uses black and white. No gray at all, and is therefore very extreme.

Great to hear ! I want to go back to the Anthem for the switching ASAP so I should be fine.

art


Hi Art,

I'm running:

Dish
Kaleidescape
BR
HD-DVD

all hdmi and no problems switching between sources, just the normal 1-2 sec delay. So far, so good!

Jim

I just picked up another HT5000, made within the last few weeks, and the latest software version is 3.12.17 (F). No issues with ANY of the HDMI connections (tried them all and have four devices hooked up hdmi).

Jim

My dealer said that they can not get your version of the software for upgrades. How can I find out from Sim2 when the version will be available? Two of my HDMI inputs do not work and the others are tempermental.

John

My dealer said that they can not get your version of the software for upgrades. How can I find out from Sim2 when the version will be available? Two of my HDMI inputs do not work and the others are tempermental.

John

Call SIM technical support,you will get an email attachment containing the firmware which you can load yourself or your dealer can do it.

Art

My apology to the contributors of this form. Previously, on two other threads - one being my own post, I was critical of the lack of information given to me. I was searching for DLP projector recommendations and received none. This has changed on this thread. After reading this, I have names and model numbers of projectors to review. SIM HT5000, TITAN 250 1080p, RUNCO, MARANTZ VPIIS, and so on. This is the information that I was looking for. Now I can find dealers who have these projectors so I can view. Ultimately deciding for myself which will best suit my application and budget. Thanks, so much.

Dal

Wow Art, this is huge. Congrats!
What will happen to the stack?

Wow Art, this is huge. Congrats!
What will happen to the stack?

Ummm, where have you been J.Mike?
The stack has been no more for several months now...

Wow Art, this is huge. Congrats!
What will happen to the stack?

The move to the SIM, CIH set at 14' wide was been a very big step up in my opinion. The twins were surgically separated and each adopted out to good homes.:D

The move to the SIM, CIH set at 14' wide was been a very big step up in my opinion. The twins were surgically separated and each adopted out to good homes.:D
As far as I'm concerned, this signals the end of CRT dominance forever. Art, thanks for leading the way. IMHO you have the final word. ;)

As for DLP, I have one final concern. I had a conversation with AVS Jason at the NYC show some years ago. I'd just come from the Samsung FP booth, and I had a headbanger of a headache. I asked Jason if a 3 chip DLP FP would solve the problem, and he said that I might be one of the very few that would be sensitive to the dithering affect of the dancing mirrors. I know you couldn't handle the spinning wheel, but have you spent a 3-4 hours watching movies with this new setup without any ill effect?

As far as I'm concerned, this signals the end of CRT dominance forever. Art, thanks for leading the way. IMHO you have the final word. ;)

As for DLP, I have one final concern. I had a conversation with AVS Jason at the NYC show some years ago. I'd just come from the Samsung FP booth, and I had a headbanger of a headache. I asked Jason if a 3 chip DLP FP would solve the problem, and he said that I might be one of the very few that would be sensitive to the dithering affect of the dancing mirrors. I know you couldn't handle the spinning wheel, but have you spent a 3-4 hours watching movies with this new setup without any ill effect?

I've not watched four hours straight but easily that much in an evening.No headaches.:)

Art

As far as I'm concerned, this signals the end of CRT dominance forever. Art, thanks for leading the way. IMHO you have the final word. ;)

As for DLP, I have one final concern. I had a conversation with AVS Jason at the NYC show some years ago. I'd just come from the Samsung FP booth, and I had a headbanger of a headache. I asked Jason if a 3 chip DLP FP would solve the problem, and he said that I might be one of the very few that would be sensitive to the dithering affect of the dancing mirrors. I know you couldn't handle the spinning wheel, but have you spent a 3-4 hours watching movies with this new setup without any ill effect?

I've had a 12hr marathon with over a dozen guys. Sports and films. The headaches were totally beer induced.:D:D Seriously we did that marathon with no issues at all. I fequently do 6 hrs as i need to view a lot of stuff for research and still need to get my films an sports in.

Sports on a huge screen with some retarded friends , is what its all about.:D