HD70 Tweakers Thread. [Text View]

guitarman

09-30-06, 08:46 PM

Blitz, setting BrilliantColor to its lowest setting kinda cripples the color output no?
I thought it was best to leave that slider somewhere in the middle of the range.....

Mine looks great with the stock advanced settings. Film has brilliant color at 3 and Vivid at 1. I just left it there. I turned off Ai and put the PJ in econo mode. From there Avia for the basics. A tip about Avia's brightness pattern. Get close to the screen so that you can barely see the left bar. Get it down to zero dither.

Take a look at a graysteps pattern and tune the Advanced RGB's from there. You want the steps of gray to be steely gray with no color tints. If you see red in the light grays pull red contrast back till gray looks gray. lets say it took 6 clicks, stop and make it just 3 click and inturn increase blue and green by 3 clicks.

Same proceedure for the darker grays. let say you see green, start lowering the green brightness until the grays look gray. lets say it took 4 clicks, stop make it 2 click and inturn increase blue and red by 2 clicks. Go back and re-do the basic brightness and contrast settings. look over the graysteps pattern again. Make more changes with the RGB's if you see color tint. Lastly go back to the basic brightness and contrast and re-check.

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/hd70graysteps.jpg

blitz6speed

10-01-06, 12:15 AM

OK, here are my now updated calibration settings for HDMI. With these settings, brightness is off the chart and colors POP off the screen. Rocky 4 in HD looks GLORIOUS. Here are the settings:

Cinema

Contrast - 19
Brightness - -5
Color - 15
Tint - -2
Sharpness - 15

Advanced -

Degamma - Film
Brilliant Color - 4
True Vivid - 0
Color Temp - 1
Image AI - Off

RGB -

Red Gain - 15
Green Gain - 13
Blue Grain - 12
Red Bias - -18
Green Bias - -20
Blue Bias - -15

Now, these settings look amazing, colors pop and dark scenes look GREAT. However... Yellow looks mustardy vs pure yellow. No matter HOW MUCH fine tuning im doing, i cant get the yellows to look calmer. Shockingly, every other color looks amazing. Otherwise im VERY happy with the settings.

ahro

10-01-06, 09:08 AM

Anyone have the HD70 settings (in Cinema mode?) for an SA8300 HD box from Cablevison?

Also, am I losing sharpness with a 130" diagonal screen? My HD72 with a 95" diagonal screen is much, much sharper, but I don't know if the HD70's lack of sharpness is because of screen size or the Cablevision box or both. But I'm disapponited.

HeadRusch

10-01-06, 09:14 AM

Yes, going from 95" to 130" you're going to lose what you perceive to be "sharpness". Still the same number of pixels on the screen, but now you're blowing them all up to a much larger size.

My 106" image is razor sharp....but I would also wager that the optics in a $999 projector aren't going to be the same as the optics on one that costs nearly twice as much, we can't ignore that fact either.

ahro

10-01-06, 10:20 AM

My 106" image is razor sharp....but I would also wager that the optics in a $999 projector aren't going to be the same as the optics on one that costs nearly twice as much, we can't ignore that fact either.

Agree on the optics, but if your 106" is 'razor' sharp, my 130 shouldn't be soft. Maybe not razor sharp, but sharp. Maybe it's the Cablevision box, which is outputting 1080i; I think there is some advanced setup feature to force it to output 720p. Also i am using component out because the HDMI output of the box was dark.

tattootearz

10-02-06, 02:09 PM

Im really looking for some calibration numbers on the D-Sub VGA input... would one of you be interested in tackling that?

cyberheater

10-02-06, 04:52 PM

Thank you. These settings work great.

OK, here are my now updated calibration settings for HDMI. With these settings, brightness is off the chart and colors POP off the screen. Rocky 4 in HD looks GLORIOUS. Here are the settings:

Cinema

Contrast - 19
Brightness - -5
Color - 15
Tint - -2
Sharpness - 15

Advanced -

Degamma - Film
Brilliant Color - 4
True Vivid - 0
Color Temp - 1
Image AI - Off

RGB -

Red Gain - 15
Green Gain - 13
Blue Grain - 12
Red Bias - -18
Green Bias - -20
Blue Bias - -15

Now, these settings look amazing, colors pop and dark scenes look GREAT. However... Yellow looks mustardy vs pure yellow. No matter HOW MUCH fine tuning im doing, i cant get the yellows to look calmer. Shockingly, every other color looks amazing. Otherwise im VERY happy with the settings.

though

10-02-06, 06:32 PM

are you using the HDMI input?

Heres my settings.

Just a note, HD70 is table mounted and using a 92" Graywolf II screen.

Under IMAGE:

Mode = Cinema
Contrast = 8
Brightness = 16
Color = 10
Tint = -2
Sharpness = 15

Under Advanced:

Degamma = Film
BrilliantColor = 0
TrueVivid = 0
Color Temp = 1
Image AI = Off
Color Space = YCbCr

Under RGB/Gain/Bias:

Red Gain = 13
Green Gain = 2
Blue Gain = 12
Red Bias = -18
Green Bias = -20
Blue Bias = -15

Under Display:

Native

Calibrated using Avia on the PC running 1280x720 with 1:1 pixel mapping.

tattootearz

10-02-06, 06:55 PM

I dont think those are VGA settings, as they dont give you access to "Color" & "Tint" controls on the VGA input.

I could be wrong..... :confused:

blitz6speed

10-02-06, 07:19 PM

Thats HDMI. Ill post my Xbox 360 component calibrations up next. I might use the VGA Cord for the 360 to see if thats any better, but i really doubt it will be.

[H]RedDog

10-02-06, 09:16 PM

Heres the best I could get to bring this thing to d65k. I've tried so hard to get this thing to calibrate right. I come up with number close to this every time. And its still not right. At this point I'm very unhappy. I feel stuck with the unit as I will probably lose over $200 if I return it. I realy hope optoma releases a new firmware and fixes the problems with the color decoder.

gamma= pc
BC=2
color temp = 1
Red Gain = 13
Green Gain = -3
Blue Gain = -8
Red Bias = -20
Green Bias = -15
Blue Bias = -13

This is on a white screen

krasmuzik

10-02-06, 09:29 PM

Red Dog

Do you know that those are greyscale controls for adjusting color temp - very few projectors (even very spendy ones) have actual color decoder controls that work properly.

For adjusting color temp you use grey patterns with a sensor, for adjusting color decoder you use the RGB pattern with the % markers and the RGB filters. Gain and Bias (sometimes called Drives/Contrast and Cuts/Offsets/Brightness) are subcontrols for brightness and contrast. The color decoder is the subcontrols for color(sat) and hue(tint) - there is generally not a naming consistentcy for these subcontrols

The former is for adjusting the panel - the latters is for adjusting the video. Think of video as watercolors on a canvas (the panel) - it is essentially colorized B&W afterall!

Many people make the mistake of seeing the RGB% in the patterns and finding RGB controls and make the connection - there is no connection at all! They are entirely the wrong controls for adjusting the color decoder.

Both guitarman and I do mail-in calibrations for cheaper than a restock fee - you might try that before calling it quits. I am offering the first HD70er calibration for no cost other than time to do a full review and you will only be out the shipping&insurance.

I don't know if you have calibration gear or not - but saying the color decoder is broken when you are posting greyscale controls.....either you mispoke or you are confused about the calibration process.

blitz6speed

10-02-06, 09:41 PM

RedDog']Heres the best I could get to bring this thing to d65k. I've tried so hard to get this thing to calibrate right. I come up with number close to this every time. And its still not right. At this point I'm very unhappy. I feel stuck with the unit as I will probably lose over $200 if I return it. I realy hope optoma releases a new firmware and fixes the problems with the color decoder.

gamma= pc
BC=2
color temp = 1
Red Gain = 13
Green Gain = -3
Blue Gain = -8
Red Bias = -20
Green Bias = -15
Blue Bias = -13

This is on a white screen

Have to say, i REALLY like these settings. Yellow really looks yellow again! Im gonna try it out on a few more flicks... Whats your contrast/brightness settings and the rest like color/tint? Pulp Fiction and Anchormans fleshtones look much nicer and theres a lot less blooming in the whites. Great work!

Edit - Putting brilliant color to 4 really helps the colors pop. Bigtime. I had to change it to 4 LOL.

[H]RedDog

10-02-06, 10:27 PM

krasmuzik I do have the gear to do a proper d65k calibration. I shouldnt have said decoder error. There is something wrong with how the color settings work. No matter what setting <color temp, gamma> I use there is always a spike in red between 80 and 90 ire. I can tune red gain down but it will bring 70 60 50 and 40 ire down too far and there will be too much green.Red always seems to tune in a u shape across the ire's. Spikes at the lower and higher ires and dipped in the middle. I can somewhat even out the lower ires but at 80 and 90 there is too much red then it dips back to normal at 100 ire. There is no was to use the gains and bias to evenly raise the red or the green. Only the blue controls can be used to raise the blue channel evenly. If you have any ideas on how to get rid of the spikes without lowering the rest of the red channel I'd like to hear them. So far to me it seems there is something thats causeing a spike that the user controls can not get rid of. The settings I have listed are as flat at d65 as I can get them.

tattootearz

10-02-06, 10:49 PM

for anyone who might be interested, here is a screenshot using blitz's most recent HDMI calibration numbers...

Im not very good at taking photos with my camera in the dark.... but I am pleased with the image.

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/27423450488.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3567069)

http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/10/27423450497.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=3567070)

:cool:

krasmuzik

10-02-06, 10:55 PM

OK Red Dog - just making sure - common thing I see is people think they are tuning their projectors with the RGB% pattern and RGB controls!

I don't doubt for a minute that Optoma has gamed the RGB gamma curves - I have never been able to get one with perfectly flat RGB from H30-H79 - without turning contrast control down to make 80% your 100%! They usually go +Red about there - then above that they go -Red to pump up contrast spec with extra Cyan raw lamp - . OK do that in the brightest marketed mode - but why in HT mode play gamma games for specs?

I will usually take that contrast hit to get rid of it because I find high IRE greyscale variances most annoying. With the service menu I would optimize master contrast rather than user contrast as it would usually be off anyways - but sounds like it does not have on HD70. Anyways seems you already did that if it is not dipping down in Red at higher IRE after going up.

If you turned Red up though - you are likely clipping high IRE red (different problem) and making bright Reds very cartoony looking. You need to likely cut blue/green instead of gain red.

anyways free offer still stands - but obviously not worth the time for someone with DIY calibration gear!

Hiikeri

10-02-06, 11:16 PM

blitz6speed, what screen you have? White or gray(lite)? Gain?

blitz6speed

10-02-06, 11:17 PM

blitz6speed

10-02-06, 11:20 PM

Graywolf II, 1.8 gain, table mounted.

Hiikeri

10-02-06, 11:34 PM

Graywolf II, 1.8 gain, table mounted.
Gain 1.8 and not see huge white spot? Isnt pretty bright-white?

I got DIY gray screen, gain about 0.8-1.0. I think i must then try to calibrate pretty different settings that you use.

Still waiting those pj:s here in Finland, maybe this week. :o

blitz6speed

10-02-06, 11:39 PM

Gain 1.8 and not see huge white spot? Isnt pretty bright-white?

I got DIY gray screen, gain about 0.8-1.0. I think i must then try to calibrate pretty different settings that you use.

Still waiting those pj:s here in Finland, maybe this week. :o

My cousin who has the identical projector is using a flat white board and same settings, it looks great on his too. But my blacks are much blacker. Also much better shadow detail on my setup then his. Im not 100% in the "cone" area of the graywolf, so i probably only get 1.2-1.4 from where i sit. No white spots at all, looks wonderful!

[H]RedDog

10-03-06, 05:51 PM

Heres some color settings that are a little better than the last set I posted. You guys can give them a try. This is what I came up with yesterday after another 3 hours on my meter.

Gamma= pc
bc= off
colortemp= 1
Red Gain = 3
Green Gain = -23
Blue Gain = -23
Red Bias = -1
Green Bias = 2
Blue Bias = 2

HeadRusch

10-03-06, 06:49 PM

I'd take Kraz up on his offer except he's in WA...thats like....another world away from me in New England :)

[H]RedDog

10-03-06, 09:08 PM

I'm not sure what Kras will be able to do with the hd70. He may be able to work some magic and get it to a point that its watchable. However as far as I am concerned right now the hd70 is not at all acceptable for theater use. I also take issue with someone on this forum lying to the readers here and saying it tracks D65 out of the box. It doesnt. And thats all well and good as long as it can be calibrated to D65 with the right gear. As far as I call tell that cant be done eaither.

blitz6speed

10-03-06, 09:13 PM

RedDog']Heres some color settings that are a little better than the last set I posted. You guys can give them a try. This is what I came up with yesterday after another 3 hours on my meter.

Gamma= pc
bc= off
colortemp= 1
Red Gain = 3
Green Gain = -23
Blue Gain = -23
Red Bias = -1
Green Bias = 2
Blue Bias = 2

That was weird. Once i put the settings in and watched a movie, it looked GREAT. Really nice. When i went back to the desktop, i had a red tint in the whites? I had to reboot for a software update, and the red tint hasnt been back since and your calibration definetly looks great. However, i had to put BC to 2. 4 put too much white into the blacks in dark scenes like harry potter 3, but 2 is just right. 0 has no pop, i dont like it. Definetly good work on these calibrations! Also, whats your other settings, like contrast and brightness, color,tint, etc?

Edit -

Ok, the red tint wouldnt go away. I had to put Red Gain to -11 and now its fine, but not sure if the image pops like your old settings. Gonna go back to those and compare.

[H]RedDog

10-03-06, 09:28 PM

I'n not sure about the other settings. I didnt write them down and my hd70 is now packed up. I think contrast was at 15 and brightness at 4 and color at -2 with those numbers. I'm not 100% sure though. Tint was at 0 with all the calibrations for sure. Just use avia or dve to set your contrast and brightness.

though

10-03-06, 09:38 PM

ok, got my HD70, toshiba HD-DVD player and optoma grey wolf II screen. set it all up today/tonight and there is 1 thing that really bothers me:

i have the HD70 ceiling mounted and if you stand up to watch (or when i stand on a chair and make adjustments to the PJ) the picture looks stunning -- crisp, clear, perfect. however, when i sit down (my couch sits low), the picture clarity/brightness/crispness all go away. when i have the lamp on BRIGHT and am sitting down, the picture looks considerably darker than on LOW standing up.

HOW CAN I FIX THIS? is it the grey wolf II screen? i didnt have this problem with my Infocus 4805/5000 using a draper white screen. if it is the grey wolf II, i could get out the tools and mount it back up. i would really like confirmation before doing this however.

i heard so many good things about the grey wolf II that i figured it would be much better than my draper.

help!

[H]RedDog

10-03-06, 09:46 PM

Its the screen. Hang your white screen back up.

Smarty-pants

10-03-06, 09:50 PM

Yep, in most situations that screen will produce poor results in a ceiling mounted setup. Would probably look great if you wanted to table mount the pj, if not though then send back the screen and use your old one, or get another.

blitz6speed

10-03-06, 09:52 PM

Yep, graywolf II is table mounted or not worth it.

Ok, after messing around, here are the calibrations that i feel are SPOT on perfect.

Note that this is for HDMI and thanks to red dog for his #s as a baseline so i could arrive at this point. No more red tint, everythings just right.

Image:

Cinema
19
-4
15
-2
15

Advanced:
PC
4
0
1
off
YCbCR

RGB/Gain/Bias:

4
-3
-8
-22
-15
-13

And there you go. Try that out and let me know your results.

tattootearz

10-03-06, 09:52 PM

though

10-03-06, 09:56 PM

RedDog']Its the screen. Hang your white screen back up.

thanks guys. if this was table mounted, it would be beautiful.... back to the old screen :(

[H]RedDog

10-03-06, 10:03 PM

Those are the hdmi settings.

though

10-04-06, 12:01 AM

where can you find firmware updates for optoma pj's?

DanLW

10-04-06, 12:08 AM

Just a suggestion:

It would be better to list values such as

Red Gain = 13
Red Bias = -18

using colons:

Red Gain: 13
Red Bias: -18

Makes it easier to see the negative values if there are less horizontal lines running around. Well, for me at least...

though

10-04-06, 12:46 AM

thanks for the settings blitz6speed. this thing looks BEAUTIFUL with them. i find myself sitting on the couch in amazement watching hd-dvd on it :eek:

krasmuzik

10-04-06, 12:52 AM

krasmuzik

10-04-06, 12:59 AM

I find all the numbers flying amusing - looks better - nope it is worse - one guy saying it was better - the other guy saying it is worse.

The reality is everyones basic video adjustments are unique to the sources - while these advanced adjustments will be unique to each lamp. I always have to recalibrate after a lamp change! So it's fun to try the RGB numbers - but it more than likely will fall short in the Red, Green or Blue direction and not hit the target!. You may be right thinking the other guys settings are too red - because for your lamp - it is!

Things like BC on/off or gamma this or that, or this preset is closer to start with- are much better things to be sharing. When I do calibration reviews - I review a configuration matrix of all projector modes - so you know what you gain or lose with each of these presets.

But anyone tweaking should have a test pattern DVD for setting brightness/contrast at least - waste of time trying someone elses settings for that basic stuff.

Here is a better way to tweak greyscale by eye - using a RGB source like HDMI - that you know has reference tint settings (the Toshiba HDVD is pretty good if I recall). Look at the ColorBars (not a grey bars!) at yellows. Yellows are obvious if they are Green or Red. Magenta will be Blue or Red. Cyan will be Blue or Green. Now tug on the RGB gains to get them aligned - then go back to greyscale patterns and play with bias to see if things can track. You are not adjusting the color decoder - you are still using the greyscale controls - but the trick is the secondary colors lie across the opposing primaries thru the greyscale point. So you move the greyscale around - the secondaries will move!

If you add Blue - Cyan and Magenta become Blue. If you add Red - Magenta and Yellow pull Red. If you add Green - Cyan and Yellow pull Green (cutting RGB left as exercise for reader!)

This eye trick does not work with component - because tint being miscalibrated messes the trick up. Do not try to adjust your white point by eye using a greyscale pattern - you will get fooled!! The brightest bar is what your brain will see as white - and your brain will think the other greybars are wrong if the brightest bar color pushes and is actually what is wrong! I have had to redo a calibration because I did not trust my instruments over my eyes when the brightest white was off from the other greys.

I don't mind posting to a tweakers thread - one cannot improve their display if they do not first go thru the exercise of critiquing it on how to make it better! If anyone is insecure enough about their purchase - then they should not be in a tweakers thread.

though

10-04-06, 02:34 AM

so one could argue that, by using these posted numbers, you are indeed getting a better picture versus factory numbers since every factory calibrated unit has slightly different (uncontrollable) characteristics?

I find all the numbers flying amusing - looks better - nope it is worse - one guy saying it was better - the other guy saying it is worse.

The reality is everyones basic video adjustments are unique to the sources - while these advanced adjustments will be unique to each lamp. I always have to recalibrate after a lamp change! So it's fun to try the RGB numbers - but it more than likely will fall short in the Red, Green or Blue direction and not hit the target!. You may be right thinking the other guys settings are too red - because for your lamp - it is!

Things like BC on/off or gamma this or that, or this preset is closer to start with- are much better things to be sharing. When I do calibration reviews - I review a configuration matrix of all projector modes - so you know what you gain or lose with each of these presets.

But anyone tweaking should have a test pattern DVD for setting brightness/contrast at least - waste of time trying someone elses settings for that basic stuff.

Here is a better way to tweak greyscale by eye - using a RGB source like HDMI - that you know has reference tint settings (the Toshiba HDVD is pretty good if I recall). Look at the ColorBars (not a grey bars!) at yellows. Yellows are obvious if they are Green or Red. Magenta will be Blue or Red. Cyan will be Blue or Green. Now tug on the RGB gains to get them aligned - then go back to greyscale patterns and play with bias to see if things can track. You are not adjusting the color decoder - you are still using the greyscale controls - but the trick is the secondary colors lie across the opposing primaries thru the greyscale point. So you move the greyscale around - the secondaries will move!

If you add Blue - Cyan and Magenta become Blue. If you add Red - Magenta and Yellow pull Red. If you add Green - Cyan and Yellow pull Green (cutting RGB left as exercise for reader!)

This eye trick does not work with component - because tint being miscalibrated messes the trick up. Do not try to adjust your white point by eye using a greyscale pattern - you will get fooled!! The brightest bar is what your brain will see as white - and your brain will think the other greybars are wrong if the brightest bar color pushes and is actually what is wrong! I have had to redo a calibration because I did not trust my instruments over my eyes when the brightest white was off from the other greys.

I don't mind posting to a tweakers thread - one cannot improve their display if they do not first go thru the exercise of critiquing it on how to make it better! If anyone is insecure enough about their purchase - then they should not be in a tweakers thread.

blitz6speed

10-04-06, 02:51 AM

I think the benefit of posting these #s is to give someone who just bought the projector a chance to try it with someone elses calibration and see where they stand. At the very least, it gives them a basis to go on and see which they prefered (OTB or forum calibrated) and then tune from there. Better this way and to have options vs just guessing at if it looks right.

though

10-04-06, 12:23 PM

i agrere blitz, although probably not perfect, it makes one feel like they did something to 'energize' the pic :p

thanks again for posting your results.

I think the benefit of posting these #s is to give someone who just bought the projector a chance to try it with someone elses calibration and see where they stand. At the very least, it gives them a basis to go on and see which they prefered (OTB or forum calibrated) and then tune from there. Better this way and to have options vs just guessing at if it looks right.

krasmuzik

10-04-06, 12:58 PM

I said you could very well make it worse not better. In generally front projectors are deficient in Red - so cutting Blue/Green will move you in the general direction. But how do you balance the Blue/Green - since they are by design opposing vectors?!. Some will be more Green, others will be more Blue, and some will be excess Red to begin with - so adding Red by cutting Green/Blue can make it worse. Maybe someone elses lamp lacks more Red than yours - so you use their Green/Blue settings and you overshoot - now your picture is overly Red! They also had more Blue than you so they added some Green - now your picture is Yellow!

Having a picture that is too Red or too Blue is tolerable (technical reason is it follows the black body radiation curve - so it just looks warm or cold) - while having one that is too Green or too Magenta is actually rather sickening! If people are that color in real life - they will soon be dead. Whereas too much Red is just a bad sun burn!

It is much better to learn how to tweak and understand the changes you are making - rather than plugging in the new numbers of the day and tweaking blindly. Which is why I posted how to do that using colorbars without using test gear. A quick check that new numbers either made it worse or better if nothing else.

Now a projector calibrated at the factory using statistical lamps will minimize the error around the target - minimizes the need to tweek. But without lamp QA in place and a calibration process in the factory that does not happen. So the question is are the numbers set by marketing at least consistent? My experience on past Optoma budget projectors H30, H31 was that every one I did was inconsistent firmwares - forget just having inconsistent lamps.

Which is why I press people to understand how they are tweaking and what changes they are making. Now you don't need to take my advice and that is fine, I post for those that do and thank me in PM not those who flame me in public. But the ColorBars trick is one that even most professional calibrators don't know. So take that for what it is worth.

though

10-04-06, 01:16 PM

krasmuzik

10-04-06, 01:24 PM

Enhanced Black Level is a misnamed control. It lowers the black point from 7.5 IRE to 0IRE (or digital 16 to 0). In one mode or the other it may cut off the blacker than black signal - which properly calibrated you are not supposed to see. So the only benefit is whichever mode lets you see that blacker than black signal during calibration so you can dial it away. In general with digital signals you want to preserve what is on the media - which is digital 16 is black - the reason is DVI/HDMI is only 8 bits and you start banding the signal if you adjust it down to zero at the source. Do that adjustment at the projector so black is black. So for HDMI I would suspect off means Black=16 which is correct.

But sometimes these controls only work on analog - not digital ports! Chris Wiggles has a .sig guide on the black level mess - find that and you will know more than you need to know. And sometimes these controls are named in Japanenglish - which means they work backwards from how you would think.

There is no such thing as "Enhanced Black" in a picture - that is a marketing name in other words - all it means is what level they will set the black to that you will try to match when you calibrate.

Your second is controlling the deinterlacer on the player. If you start noticing jaggies or flickering - then try the other setting. The reason it is there is that Auto will sometimes fail to lockon if the original source is film rate or video rate - which requires different processing algorithms. So they punt and basically are asking you if it looks bad - then change it. Some DVD's are poorly mastered and cause the deinterlacer confusion thus the controls!

HeadRusch

10-04-06, 01:38 PM

Kraz...can you go over that colorbars thing one more time for the idiots among us?
(like...me)

When adjusting for colors you pull Gain or Bias or both for each primary (R, G, B)
???

krasmuzik

10-04-06, 02:05 PM

Gain only - use the 100% colorbars pattern not the 75% colorbars pattern. And this will only work with RGB sources that tint is known correct! Component might work if tint on source/display is correct - but you don't know if it is not. By using the RGB source you put the color decoder on the source rather than the display - and just hope it is correct. Other than some screwy HTPC video card overlays - video RGB sources are usually right on tint. However I know that earlier Oppos where in fact not though - though current ones are.!

It helps if you have a CIE gamut triangle to understand the RGB to CMY color relationship - see my SP7210 review for examples. And if you don't know what colors Cyan, Magenta actually are - then you cannot get Blue balanced. Most people can get the Yellow figured - but Blue opposes Yellow and cannot impact it (much beyond the BlackBody curves curve)

Then once you think you have the colors correct go back to the greyscale bars and play with bias to try to even out the darks with the lights by eye.

I of course have gear so I use the greyscale patterns to calibrate, but I know how those patterns can fool the eye. Colors don't fool the eye as easy. I always blow away a calibration customer when I walk in and put up ColorBars and say - your greyscale is off - and they go how do you know you have not ever looked at GreyBars yet! :D

HeadRusch

10-04-06, 02:45 PM

Gain only - use the 100% colorbars pattern not the 75% colorbars pattern.
Is this somewhere in Avia?

NEVERMIND..I'll find it ;)

people can get the Yellow figured - but Blue opposes Yellow and cannot impact it (much beyond the BlackBody curves curve)

..head...hurting... ;)

Then once you think you have the colors correct go back to the greyscale bars and play with bias to try to even out the darks with the lights by eye.

Ok. Thanks for the clarification.....

ahro

10-04-06, 03:27 PM

my toshiba HD-DVD player has 2 settings that im not sure where to set for the HD70 projector. i use the HD70/HD-DVD player strictly for viewing DVD/HD-DVD movies via HDMI.

the 2 settings in question:

1. "Enhanced Black Level" -- to display deeper, richer black than in 'off' setting. on -or- off.

2. "Picture Mode" -- Film or Video or Auto. Film- the player converts film content pictures in the progressive output format appropriately. suitable for playback of film content pictures. Video- the player filters video signal, and converts it in the progressive ouptut format appropriately. suitable for playback of video content pictures. Auto- select this position normally. the player automatically detects source content, film or video, of playback source, and converts that signal in the progressive output format in an appropriate method.

I own the Tosh HD DVD player: Enhanced black has no effect, either over HDMI or component. It does, I understand, in s-video, but who would use that?!

I've had no problem with jaggies using the 'auto' mode, but I use the Tosh's 720p mode to pixel match with my HD72. I'm debating whether to get anothe Tosh for the HD70. If anyone knows of a bargain, let me know :D

technogeeky

10-04-06, 03:32 PM

anyone have some settings for component? :O

krasmuzik

10-04-06, 04:13 PM

Is this somewhere in Avia?

NEVERMIND..I'll find it ;)

..head...hurting... ;)

Ok. Thanks for the clarification.....

A good calibrator always has his AVIA handy! :D Unless of course he forgot and left it with last customer - who then thinks AVIA is free with calibration. :eek:

The colorbars are the one in the training video - but go to Advanced Calibration-> Basic Patterns ->Blue Bars. For sure the 100% bars are at Advanced->VideoTestPatterns->Color Adjustments->Special ColorBars->*100* - maybe the ones in the video are the 75% bars....

HeadRusch

10-04-06, 06:41 PM

Right, the blue bars for adjusting Tint/COlor, before the color decoder check.....ok.

The full 100IRE colorbars I'll go hunting for......

tattootearz

10-04-06, 07:51 PM

Im really looking for some calibration numbers on the D-Sub VGA input... would one of you be interested in tackling that? :D

guitarman

10-04-06, 08:01 PM

RedDog']Its the screen. Hang your white screen back up.

Wow you're the only one having color and black level problems.

I think you're all way off on the graywolf and a ceiling mounted PJ. I'm using that combination right now. The graywolf is 1.8 in the cone and lets say 1.0 if you ceiling mount. The HD70 is too bright for reference HT levels in the cone. What I get with the ceiling mount is an awesome HT black level. Everybody thinks they're being jipped when they stand up and the image is brighter. You're not getting jipped. You're actually better off ceiling mounted the picture is closer to reference levels. Revel in the blacks boys. This PJ has no problem showing dark black in my setup.

106" 1.0 gain screen equals 700lumens in bright mode, 560lumens in econo.
In econo you're I'm still at 17ft lamberts still much too high for HT reference of 12ftlamberts but acceptable. You want bright you got it and don't even know it. :)

Don't stand up and think you're getting jipped, it's actually the opposite.

Here's a tip, if your blacks look on the crushed side try Video Gamma.

[H]RedDog

10-04-06, 09:22 PM

I'm not sure I'm the only one having problems. The problems I have are from a calibration point of view. guitarman you've talked about all the different modes being great for this or that. Thats fine if your willing to sacrifice color accuracy for a bright plasma like image for hdtv sports. I might even use one of those mode for animation or somthing like that. For me though I watch only movies in my theater and for that its gotta be d65 or I notice strange things going on with the colors. I dont know how many other people who have the hd70 have even seen a properly calibrated set. They may not know the difference. Even if they did they may not care. I do care and for me this thing has serious problems that I have been unable to fix. I'm sure eveyone else has the same problems. Its just that they dont know or dont care about them. If your unit works so well post some gamma charts and rgb tracking charts. Maybe it is just my unit. In that case I'll send it back to optoma and get a new one.

guitarman

10-04-06, 09:49 PM

I have a hard time making the projector look bad. Could be you have an off one. Most of what I've read is people are happy with it and they're not new to projectors. So you're dumping your HD70?

guitarman

10-04-06, 09:58 PM

"I dont know how many other people who have the hd70 have even seen a properly calibrated set. "

I've tuned 300 projectors for people in the last year or so. My HD70 looks great with just a brightness and contrast adjustment. We're watching Seinfeld right now, it's TV and colors look normal and natural. Bones just came on same thing, looking gooood!
I think you need another machine.

[H]RedDog

10-05-06, 06:44 AM

Its possible I do have a bad one. I'd still like to see what your gamma and color tracking results are. I dont want to have to judge your hd70 off your screen shots. Just by your screen shots though I can tell yours looks like garbage too. Your greyscale is way off, suffers from blown out whites and lack of detail on the darker end. Some of that is subjective. Actual measurements are not. I just want to know what your getting from your 70. YOu did a great job when you reviewed the h31. I bought one because of what you said about it. I then bought the hd70 because of what you said about it. I consider you an asset to us at AVS. However your motives for praising the hd70 have already been called into question by others here. Alot of what your saying here IS starting to sound like a sales pitch. You have the equipment and the know how to show us what this thing is actualy doing. Not just hey guys this thing looks soooooo good!. Any idiot can say that. Show us what the 70 realy does because mine does not do what you say yours does out of the box at all. Mine after over 10 hours calibrating do not do what you say yours does out of the box.

"I ran a graysale check with Cinema/Film and it cam in flat bouncing around 65/66k. As far as screenshots it's better live but maybe you're not use to what D65k looks like exactly. D65k adds warmish look to images."

"Contrast measured 2700.1"

"Brightness 20.50ftc, that's 818lumens on a 106"diag 1.0 gain screen."

I could not make all of those statments true of my hd70 all at the same time if I had a magic elf living in my audio cabinet. And I used to. But he moved out because my denon gave off too much heat.

guitarman

10-05-06, 09:01 AM

From reading I don't think you'll ever like the projector, better let go. I hope it's early enough to get your money back from the dealer?
If not sri

guitarman

10-05-06, 11:57 AM

fru

10-05-06, 12:43 PM

Can any of the current owners let me know how big an image can hd70 throw without losing much pq and sharpness. I have a room that is 18' x 22' with 11' ceiling and I wanted to see how big of an image I can get from HD70.

Thanks!

jcharm

10-05-06, 01:32 PM

Couple of observations here. I really want to use brilliant color because of the added punch, but find that it does add some noise in certain scenes - not all, but it's definitely there, I'm surprised that no one has made reference to this yet. Also I can crank sharpness all the way up and don't really see any problems, which is kind of strange.

HeadRusch

10-05-06, 02:13 PM

As far as I can tell, the SHARPNESS slider is like the extra dials you had on old TV's and Radios from the 50's. You could turn them forever, they didn't actually do anything :)

cyberheater

10-05-06, 05:19 PM

blitz6speed

10-05-06, 05:57 PM

I too have noticed this. I can live with it though.

Brilliant Color REALLY looks amazing with the xbox 360 via component. I cant tell you how stunning the picture looks. Its insane. I'll post up the settings i used for the 360 tonight.

guitarman

10-05-06, 09:35 PM

As far as I can tell, the SHARPNESS slider is like the extra dials you had on old TV's and Radios from the 50's. You could turn them forever, they didn't actually do anything :)

What happening with your projector?

HeadRusch

10-05-06, 11:05 PM

My PJ? Haven't had a chance to touch it since Monday. ND filter should be here tomorrow but haven't had a chance to try tweaking it out again, bring down that black level a bit.

The SHARPNESS slider on my rig wont do much for me, because the only source I have connected to the PJ right now is the Tosh HD player, so everything is upped to 1080i before being dropped to 720p at the PJ.

But the Sharpness slider really doesnt' appear to change anything in Avias Resolution test.
<shrug>

I'm hoping to have more time to mess with the PJ tomorrow, but if not it'll have to wait until Sunday.

blitz6speed

10-05-06, 11:25 PM

Component settings for Xbox 360 via Component:

Cinema
9
9
10
-6
15

Advanced:
Video
6
3
1
Off

RGB:
2
0
3
0
-1
0

Native 1:1

Looks INSANE.

WyattERP

10-06-06, 12:00 AM

Hey guys...been tinkering with my new HD70 for the past few days. Last night was the first night of extensive testing and capturing shots with my Nikon D50 to compare to my 4805. Tonight I decided to take my 4805 down from the ceiling mount and put the HD70 up for replacement.

I'll spare the review for the moment as I am building my opinions through early use. The HD70 looks great except for one thing that I am unsure about. Using the DVE disc, I was checking the first sharpness calibration pattern, and noticed that the HD70 appeared to have ghosting lines.

It's hard to describe, but it's different than a "hard edge" as sharpness should adjust. I am just seeing that a short distance off lines on both sides there appears to be a ghost line or some sort of odd pixelation going on...well, that's still a poor explanation. I wish I could take a good screenshot of the effect, but it really affects straight lines and things like text with the issue seemingly a distortion in the sharpness of the edge of text or straight lines when you view from a normal distance. This is over both HDMI AND Component with my Oppo DVD player. I was also noticing this weird effect on text watching Dish Network HDTV (a football game).

This may be a signal degradation issue, but I don't understand why this would occur over HDMI?

I will continue to tinker to see if something is the root of this issue, I don't remember seeing it last night when I had the PJ sitting on a table. I need to fire the 4805 back up to make sure I am not seeing things that aren't there. Any thoughts?

Oh yeah, color calibration seems to be kind of difficult as I couldn't cause much of any effect on the color squares calibration provided on the DVE DVD. The Blue test seems to be pretty spot on by default, and red is pretty close, but green is way off, and no matter what I changed in the RGB advanced settings, I couldn't cause much in the way of any effect on the colors.

I'm wondering if some quality control issues exist in this first round of HD70s out of the gate. Last night things were looking great, especially in hooking up to my 360, but tonight the ghosting lines (almost like double vision) and the lack of color tuning ability has got me scratching my head a little.

I also agree with HeadRusch on the sharpness slider...it seems to cause very little change on either extreme. It is noticeable, but very slight.

-Wyatt

blitz6speed

10-06-06, 12:20 AM

Hmm, i just tried going from one end to the other with sharpness, and the difference is very apparent for me. Tried with the 360 and the PC, same thing, huge difference from one end to the other.

ahro

10-06-06, 03:28 AM

jcharm

10-06-06, 03:33 PM

I'll post my setup for component HDTV.

Cinema
Contrast 7
Brightness 0
Color -2
Tint 0
Sharpness 3

Advanced
Degamma video
Brilliant Color 3
True Vivid 0
Color temp 1
AI off
RGB/gains/bias
R gain 2
G gain 0
B gain 3
R bias 0
G bias -1
B bias 0

If anybody trys these first jot down all your original numbers especially the RGB numbers.

These settings were a big improvement for me, thanks. I think though I still have an issue with yellow though, there is some green creeping in here. Anybody else seeing mustardy yellows?

WyattERP

10-06-06, 11:45 PM

After some more use tonight, I think I may have just had a weird issue with the signal last night, as I have not noticed that "ghosting line" or "white line shadow" that I saw last night, or at least it wasn't as pronounced. The thing is pretty close to calibrated out of the box, but I did decide to bump the blue bias back a little, and bumped the red up a notch to give the picture a bit more color vibrancy. Sure, this may not be accurate, but I'm kind of stuck on the apparent better vibrancy of my 4805's colors.

After several hours of watching stuff on the unit, I no longer cared, the HD70 is impressive. Different than the 4805, no doubt, but it has enough big time benefits to warrant its trumping of my venerable Infocus! I have lots of screencap comparison shots, and will post them as soon as the AVSForum rules allow me to shed complete newb status.

WyattERP

10-07-06, 12:02 AM

DO I need 5 posts before I can post a URL?

This is filler!

Smarty-pants

10-07-06, 12:13 AM

Mmmmm, filler...

WyattERP

10-07-06, 12:20 AM

Double OOPS...I posted a bunch of links here, but they don't really pertain to the "tweakers thread". I meant to post them all in the "The new budget king" thread. SO I am going to delete my original post here and re-post the comparison shots in that thread.

tattootearz

10-07-06, 12:24 AM

Smarty-pants

10-07-06, 12:58 AM

Alright, a couple images posted. This is my Xbox 360 hooked up via VGA cable @ 1280x720 REZ. All pictures are 1600x1200.

Dashboard Captures:

http://websnappy.com/imagehost/PJCompare/360Dash_4805.JPG
http://websnappy.com/imagehost/PJCompare/360Dash_HD70.JPG

http://websnappy.com/imagehost/PJCompare/360Dash_SignIN_4805.JPG
http://websnappy.com/imagehost/PJCompare/360Dash_SignIN_HD70.JPG

http://websnappy.com/imagehost/PJCompare/XboxLiveLogo_4805.JPG
http://websnappy.com/imagehost/PJCompare/XboxLiveLogo_HD70.JPG

http://websnappy.com/imagehost/PJCompare/360Dash_Button_4805.JPG
http://websnappy.com/imagehost/PJCompare/360Dash_button_HD70.JPG

http://websnappy.com/imagehost/PJCompare/360Dash_Blades_4805.JPG
http://websnappy.com/imagehost/PJCompare/360Dash_Blades_HD70.JPG

HD Game Video Captures:

http://websnappy.com/imagehost/PJCompare/360_HL2_Freeze1_4805.JPG
http://websnappy.com/imagehost/PJCompare/360_HL2_Freeze1_HD70.JPG

http://websnappy.com/imagehost/PJCompare/360_HL2_Freeze2_4805.JPG
http://websnappy.com/imagehost/PJCompare/360_HL2_Freeze2_HD70.JPG

http://websnappy.com/imagehost/PJCompare/360_H3_Freeze1_4805.JPG
http://websnappy.com/imagehost/PJCompare/360_H3_Freeze1_HD70.JPG

http://websnappy.com/imagehost/PJCompare/360_H3_Freeze2_4805.JPG
http://websnappy.com/imagehost/PJCompare/360_H3_Freeze2_HD70.JPG

HDTV:

http://websnappy.com/imagehost/PJCompare/Scoreboard_4805.JPG
http://websnappy.com/imagehost/PJCompare/Scoreboard_HD70.JPG

http://websnappy.com/imagehost/PJCompare/FootballGame_4805.JPG
http://websnappy.com/imagehost/PJCompare/FootballGame_HD70.JPG

http://websnappy.com/imagehost/PJCompare/FootballPlayer_4805.JPG
http://websnappy.com/imagehost/PJCompare/FootballPlayer_HD70.JPG

I realize that some of these pictures aren't the greatest...it's hard to capture motion in a dark environment with a camera, but I think it's a pretty good representation of comparison shots across the board. I have some more coming up once I can get some more content in there.

I think the best comparison shot is the Freeze1 one from HL2. You can see the contrast and sharpness inrease is pretty dramatic in certain parts of the image.

Ummm, websnappy wants a username and password... ERROR 401: UNAUTHORIZED. :(

blitz6speed

10-07-06, 01:56 AM

blitz or Guitarman... would one of u be so kind to run a calibration via VGA input?

I would run it myself but I am unable to get access to the Color & Tint functions through VGA and all I would be able to tune is Contrast & Brightness with AVIA or GETGRAY.

For anyone feeding their 360 to the HD70 via VGA and who may be considering the purchase of one of those Microsoft HD-DVD add-on drives, the calibration of the VGA output is a big money ticket.

I have 0 intrest in HD-DVD (i dont think its going to be the winning format, lets stay out of that in this forum however) and since i have a HTPC hooked up via HDMI, i dont really need the VGA for the 360 to upconvert DVDs. I do have the cord but just no intrest to hook it up and get it calibrated.

[H]RedDog

10-07-06, 06:03 AM

I'll take a look at vga for you. The fact that it doesnt have color or tint makes me wonder if maybe something in its color processing isnt bypassed. I may actualy be able to get a decent greyscale out of that port.

WyattERP

10-07-06, 06:53 AM

blitz6speed

10-07-06, 07:44 AM

Ooops...sorry folks. I just removed the folder restriction on my website. I tried to set it up originally so that I could just give people root access FTP style. Give the change 30 minutes and it should permeate through my site. If not, you can use username:public and pass:pjcompare to see the images.

Have you calibrated your HD70?

Just from looking at the pics, you can tell the 4805 is oversaturated by a huge margin. But your HD70 shots show a green push, albiet much more lifelike colors.

tattootearz

10-07-06, 08:57 AM

RedDog']I'll take a look at vga for you. The fact that it doesnt have color or tint makes me wonder if maybe something in its color processing isnt bypassed. I may actualy be able to get a decent greyscale out of that port.
Red, thanks alot... I will look forward to that.

Smarty-pants

10-07-06, 11:43 AM

WyattERP, I think there may be a Lepricahn living in your PJ. Wayyy tooo much green:). Thanks for the screenies though.

HeadRusch

10-07-06, 11:48 AM

I think we're seeing the trend: HD70 pushes green a bit.....whats the best way to back that off in RGB?

ahro

10-07-06, 04:01 PM

Scored Batman Begins at Target today, but that comes later.

I can notice the gradation of color in the HD70 with video feeds - HD news broadcast WNBC-HD; I can't notice it in film.

Bought another Tosh HD DVD player with a price match at BB, but they wouldn't honor my 12% coupon. Is that right?

Anyway, I loaded firmware 2.0 and am using 720p on the Tosh to match pixels. Batman Begiins looks great, even on my 140" diagonal screen. I got it at Target. They weren't ready to put HD DVDs out this week, but had some. The guy was nice and checked in the back and came out with Batman - Whooppee! :D

This was in upstate New York, and I'd like to know from and BB customers if I should have gotten both the price match AND my coupons. Anyone?

WyattERP

10-07-06, 04:22 PM

WyattERP, I think there may be a Lepricahn living in your PJ. Wayyy tooo much green:). Thanks for the screenies though.

Yeah, me too. Not sure the best way to back it off, but I am messing with the gains and bias settings. It's kind of hard to do it without using the calibration disc though. Like I mentioned before, out of the box, the blues and reds are pretty good, but the green isn't, so altering the sliders is just gonna mess the other colors up as well, isn't it?

Maybe Optoma can fix this via firmware?

blitz6speed

10-07-06, 08:34 PM

Yeah, me too. Not sure the best way to back it off, but I am messing with the gains and bias settings. It's kind of hard to do it without using the calibration disc though. Like I mentioned before, out of the box, the blues and reds are pretty good, but the green isn't, so altering the sliders is just gonna mess the other colors up as well, isn't it?

Maybe Optoma can fix this via firmware?

Unless you're spending 10 figures, hardly any projector comes out of the box 100% calibrated. I dont know why everyone expects them fully calibrated. If theres a green push, you calibrate it and remove it. The colors on mine are absolutely top notch. No push of any color and colors pop off the screen.

krasmuzik

10-07-06, 09:22 PM

blitz6speed

And what calibration instrument is it that you used to verify color push? Tweaking is about obtaining a reference image - not unmeasured opinion.

blitz6speed

10-07-06, 09:54 PM

blitz6speed

And what calibration instrument is it that you used to verify color push? Tweaking is about obtaining a reference image - not unmeasured opinion.

Kras

I dont watch movies to look for defects. I know what colors look good to my eyes and are pleasing to look at. I know when i see too much red, or green or blue, especially in the whites. Good luck with your passion of looking for faults tho LOL.

MTyson

10-07-06, 10:06 PM

Some people do have a great ability to calibrate by eye. I can do it very well (very near ISF level), but then again I do digital color grading (and I'm very good), color correction and I own two CRT front projectors. Of course this is not a skill I feel very many possess.

I can detect push very easy and I'm very sensitive to green push. I can't stand it. Even a slight green push takes away a certain "warmth" and adds a sickly look to me. I calibrate white balance and black balance and do finishing touches with a greyscale pattern and then a few more minor touchups. I am a very good by eye calibrator.

krasmuzik

10-07-06, 10:12 PM

blitz6speed
Then why are you posting to the tweaks thread? If you cannot measure the defects you cannot fix them. SMPTE standards for video exist solely so that your video chain does not exist of people saying it looks good to their eye.

Using the RGB decoder pattern in AVIA and adjusting the RGB gain - is not a solution to a green that is too bright. There are no controls for fixing the video decoding - the RGB gain is for fixing the greyscale. You would use it if white is too green - not if green is too hot.

I am a calibrator - people pay me to find fault with their displays so I can fix it - so that they can get the reference image that they know looks good to their eye - rather than the marketed specs that look good to the manufactures eye. If it bothers you that people find fault with your new toy - don't bother reading this thread.

Tweaking is finding fault - and fixing it.

krasmuzik

10-07-06, 10:20 PM

blitz6speed

10-07-06, 10:25 PM

Kras

I see no problems with my HD70. I used Avia + tweaking by eye and its absolutely stunning. Colors look perfect to me.

krasmuzik

10-07-06, 10:26 PM

MTyson

10-07-06, 11:02 PM

MTyson

If greyscale is flat then adjusting by eye can be done with people trained and exposed daily references. I do not at all disagree with that. It is when greyscale is not flat that even the trained eye will get fooled.

If 100% IRE is off from the rest - your brain will compensate and assume it is correct and assume 0%-90% is what is wrong - even though it is the other way around - very difficult to tell your brain that it is 100% IRE that was wrong - even confronted with sensor evidence staring you in the face.

I suggest anyone who thinks they can adjust greyscale by eye is find a friend with a sensor - and challenge it to a shootout. You will be proven wrong - even the top calibrators have learned this. It is the way the eye works - it is white adaptive by design. I have learned my own lesson by taking myself up on claims that I could adjust greyscale by eye using greyscale patterns - I found I get fooled just like anyone else and always rely on sensors now rather than a quicky touchup by eye.

If you don't get all the greyscale right - then no chance of getting colors correct - and on those your eye is less easily fooled as it is with white. Which is why I use colorbars to tell if greyscale is off by eye - not greyscale patterns.

I agree that you can't just use the greyscale pattern. I use that to start and then finish it off with touchups using skins tones (and/or colors bars) with with material that does not try to get "artistic" with odd color grading. Something with more natural skin tones. I've used Veronica Mars for this a few times. I do touch ups to make sure her skin looks as perfect as possible. You definitely shouldn't just rely on the greyscale pattern.

You're right about the color decoding issue. With some units you simply can't calibrate it to have great accurracy. I had some issues with my X1 and accurracy. It was pretty damn annoying to calibrate. I found my CRT to be a breeze by comparison. lol.

shatten22

10-07-06, 11:29 PM

Kras

Do you think then that the HD70's green push can be corrected by the end-user or is it something that Optoma is going to have to fix via a firmware update?

cappra

10-07-06, 11:41 PM

mowerman

10-07-06, 11:47 PM

OK fine then go tell people that in the HD70 owners thread not the tweakers thread.

Tweakers are here because they find fault - and want help with understanding the settings so they can fix the faults. Trying to drown them out by saying my eye says mine looks fine is not helping anybody.

maybe he is doing it to say that not all hd70s have a green push.

To encourage others to purchase if they are on the fence about it. Others who are reading this thread solely because it says HD70. I know that is what i am doing.

I read most threads regarding the HD70 wether i am activly participating in the thread topic or not.

No offense but you are coming off as one of the"I do this for a living so I know more than you" kind of guys.
Blitz likes his HD70 and he is letting people know it on a PUBLIC INTERNET forum. Relax. :D

cavu

10-08-06, 12:02 AM

Blitz likes his HD70 and he is letting people know it on a PUBLIC INTERNET forum.Well, as a number of people have pointed out lately, this is the "AV Science Forum", not the "AV I-like-it-that-way Forum" or the "AV Kermit-Says-It-Is-Easy-Being-Green Forum".

Posters like MTyson and Blitz6speed are misleading newbie readers when they infer that they have successfully calibrated this projector when, it turns out, they simply fiddled with it till "they liked the way it looks".

you are coming off as one of the"I do this for a living so I know more than you" kind of guysAnd your point is????

I, and many others, are anxiously awaiting Kras's professional review before we drop any coin.

krasmuzik

10-08-06, 12:08 AM

cappra

Well the only green people I know are martians! But in general you are correct - face tones are the worst way to check for greyscale push - but it also the easiest way - IF you know what that face is supposed to look like (via a reference). Was watching a BENQ8720 last nite and we were debating if the actor was sunburned because that was the part he was playing - or are we detecting a bit of red push? I told the guy if he wants to know for sure he needs to pay me to bring in my test equipment - I was not about to start adjusting based on a scene in a movie I am not familiar with.

shatten

First you have to admit there is green push. Some of you got that figured out! Some of you have not. If you are watching the Matrix - when you are in the matrix - green push is desired. When you are outside the matrix - there is NO green - everything is blue. Unless you are partying in Zion - then everyone is naked flesh.

Next you have to decide - is the green push being referred to - a cabling issue, a colorspace issue, a color decoder issue, or a greyscale issue.

cabling issue is easy - R2R, G2G, B2B. If not replug and try again. Sometimes it is not so easy when cold solder joints means you have the right plugs but still a bad connection. So try the digital ports which are impossible to screw up instead.

colorspace issue is using the wrong decoder - SD vs. HD will have green push. This is common in an upconverted SD to HD video chain. I don't see a control for that so you can only hope there is not a problem here.

color decoder issue is when you use the green filter on the AVIA RGB decoder pattern - or your sensor on RGBW fields - with the filter they should be the same - with the sensor they are a certain luminance ratio. There is NO fix for this - other than to find a compromise using the color saturation control between the red, green, blue filters. Some of the more spendy manufacturers will put a dozen color decoder adjustments in their service menus for those trained on what the adjustmens do. The RGB gain is NOT a fix for this test pattern like some have been suggesting.

But before you look at a color decoder as being the issue - you first have to see is the greyscale an issue. Because if the greys ain't right - the color will never be right.

The difference here is the green too bright of a green - or is the grey itself too green because too much green is mixed in? Or a combination of both?

Without a reference hard to tell grey is green. I can give you a reference white and if you stare at it long enough then look at the green white - yes you will say it is green. If instead I first give you the green white - then you look at the reference white you will say the reference white is too magenta.

So if it happens that bright Whites are Blue, while Greys are Cyan - I guarantee your eye will be fooled into saying gray is too green. This is why you need the sensor - because if you add Blue and Red to counter act the "green" - when it really needed just needed the Red to counteract the Cyan (or cut Green/Blue if out of Red) - you have made it worse not better!

So instead of gear - and you want to go by eye? Look at your seconday colors and ask - is Cyan too green, is Yellow too green? If so - your whites are likely green. Pull down Green gain until it looks right. This assumes a digital RGB connection that you know the tint is right in the first place.

For those with test equipment - put up greyscale patterns. Bright Whites are controlled by gain, Dark Greys are controlled by bias. They do interact and you have to iterate. Also know your limits - don't add more red if you are clipping it already at 100% and just turning everything above 50% the same shade of red. Likewise with Bias - it helps to have the near black bars up with your test patterns (not all test patterns have this) - if you go to far down on Bias, then you have clipped your brightness control and the bar dissapears.

mowerman

I do this for a living and I do get paid to know more than you. Otherwise nobody would pay me if I knew nothing. People would not be paying me to do what blitz is doing - which is LOVE THEIR MACHINE LOOKS GREAT LIKE IT A LOT LOOKS FINE TO ME. I get referrals because I tell people their machines are broken - and here is how it can be fixed - not because I tell people everything looks great. I don't want referrals that say I lied yet took their money.

cavu

10-08-06, 01:26 AM

Hey Kras!

Might you be able to check whether or not the HD70 supports 48/72Hz while you have it?

guitarman claimed he had gotten his D2 to frame lock at 48Hz but then promptly deleted his post to that effect. He never did respond about 72Hz so I assuming at this point it can not support either.

Thanks!

krasmuzik

10-08-06, 03:54 AM

Sorry - Accupel VideoGenerator does not do 48Hz - and my HTPC did a windows update and has DMA issues and skips, judders, crackles.

Maybe DaGamePimp has his HTPC working at 48Hz we can try. But that does not necessarily mean the Bravo is exact same sync he has on HTPC!

V.X.Donique

10-08-06, 09:27 AM

maybe he is doing it to say that not all hd70s have a green push.

i see it as.......

if the majority of the screenies taken exhibit green push & some don't, who's calibrating (more so tweaking) the HD70 to attain a picture to get rid of it? some i've seen don't have green push at all :confused:

blitz6speed

10-08-06, 09:59 AM

i see it as.......

if the majority of the screenies taken exhibit green push & some don't, who's calibrating (more so tweaking) the HD70 to attain a picture to get rid of it? some i've seen don't have green push at all :confused:

To repeat, out of the box calibration is not right. It needs a calibration. Once calibrated looks GREAT. If you're expecting MARANTZ quality at 999, you will be severly disapointed. You are getting a TOP NOTCH projector for the price and amazing picture quality with great blacks to boot. I just passed 72 hours, and blacks are just getting more black as we go. Couldnt be happier if i tried with this thing.

V.X.Donique

10-08-06, 10:01 AM

gotcha.

cavu

10-08-06, 03:24 PM

Sorry - Accupel VideoGenerator does not do 48HzPM me with your shipping address. I am going to purchase a Bravo D1 from NewEgg and ship it directly to you.

You deserve one for all the great info you have provided me in the past!

I'll snail mail a new cap to you. ;)

krasmuzik

10-08-06, 03:39 PM

cavu

sorry but I don't want one. I stick to DVD Players that I can sale and make money on as part of a package deal. That is the life of being a dealer - I have to buy what my customers would buy - not what I would buy. So if the HTPC gets replaced - it gets replaced with a $$$ Marantz DVD or more likely the Toshiba HDVD player.

MTyson

10-08-06, 06:45 PM

What exactly is "perfect" skin tone? How can you take an image and adjust the skin tone to make it 100 % correct when there are likely many different skin colours that could be correct for that individual person. Looked at a crowd of people lately? lot's of different skin tones. I would think that the more accurately the grey scale can be calibrated, the more of a fighting chance you would have of getting the "perfect" skin tone.

Well, using familiar material helps and 100% correct is probably not the right way to describe it (maybe 98-99.5%. :)). You're right about there different skin tones and not one being perfect. However, if I am doing touchups after doing white and black balance I can use a Veronica Mars paused scene and match it to the same scene printed on a magazine cover or something like that. Calibrating is a back and forth processs of checking white balance, black balance, then looking at the greyscale, then skin tones on familiar images, looking at color bars, fade to blacks, dark scenes, bright scenes, etc.

I'd put my 4805 picture up on my Silver Torus against anyone elses and I am positive mine would come out on top against 99.9% of everyone who owns one. With the only exception being those using an ISF'd 4805 on a Vutec SilverStar with FFDShow in a room with dark walls. Those would be pretty close to mine in the dark, but would be blown away in any ambient light.

I've used calibration dvds before, saved my settings and my image by eye was nearly identical.

Posters like MTyson and Blitz6speed are misleading newbie readers when they infer that they have successfully calibrated this projector when, it turns out, they simply fiddled with it till "they liked the way it looks".

Stop putting words in my mouth Cavu. I did no such thing. I don't even have the projector, yet. I have a 4805 and CRT and was speaking on my experience with them. Having a CRT means I have much more experience with a complicated setup and I have experience as a color corrector and grader. I uses photoshop, after effects, final cut pro, etc extensively for digital color correcting/grading and making 24p video look more like film. I can calibrate very well by eye. I have done comparisons using a non calibrated by eye image and it was nearly identical.

BTW, I am not telling any newbies they can do this accurrately by eye with an HD70. Most of them may not have a good eye for this and probably have never done advanced image color correction/grading. Also, maybe the H70 can't be perfectly accurate. I do not just fiddle around until it looks good with a random image. I adjust using my color correction/grading image calibration knowledge and make it look as accurate as I can. I know what looks good and what is also very close to accurate. Looking "good" to me is when it looks near accurate. If a display is capable of looking accurate I can get very close by eye.

If you would've read all of my post you would've noticed how I mentioned the X1 giving me trouble with my techniques due to it being unable to get completely accurrate. It may be the same with the HD70 for all I know. It may not, but of course you assume it isn't simply because you own the 4805. :) I never claimed I could get an accurate picture out of ANY projector or the HD70. I simply meant if it's capable of an accurrate picture I can get pretty close by eye. I can't speak for Blitz or how good he does by eye or is his HD70 is accurrate or close to accurate. I only know how capable I am with an image (assuming it can be calibrated much better than an X1, which could not be calibrated with great accuracy).

BTW, Cavu. I hate to break it to you, but your 4805 is NOT 100% accurate like you believe it is; Like how the designers/directors saw it on their CRT monitor. A CRT projector is much closer to what they see on their monitor. :) It's funny that you sounds like a CRTer yet you own a projector many of them wouldn't use if you gave them one free of charge (not me, but some). :)

DaGamePimp

10-08-06, 07:11 PM

kras just left with the HD70 and while I will let him state his calibration findings I will say that it is not too promising ;) . Now for $999 it makes for a nice Gaming or HiDef Sports projector but if you seek something for HT use I would honestly steer clear of this unit .

As long as your expectations are not set very high then you will probably be happy with the performance .

Just my opinion and I mean no offense to those that already own one .

-------- Jason

DaGamePimp

10-08-06, 07:17 PM

cavu ,

Sorry but we forgot to try 48Hz from my HTPC :( .

--------- Jason

mjolson

10-08-06, 07:26 PM

kras just left with the HD70 and while I will let him state his calibration findings I will say that it is not too promising ;)

-------- Jason

Bummer. Oh well, the universal law of economics (you get what you pay for) always seems to hold true.

DaGamePimp

10-08-06, 07:38 PM

Bummer. Oh well, the universal law of economics (you get what you pay for) always seems to hold true.

Maybe a better way to put it would be that while this unit breaks a price barrier it does not break a price to performance barrier ;) .

------ Jason

gprro1

10-08-06, 07:49 PM

what kind of lumen and contrast #'s did you guys find?

gottahavapj

10-08-06, 08:42 PM

Excellent- I would guess everyone is looking forward to Kras' crucifixion... er, I mean write-up of the HD70. I would guess that everyone who has remotely followed these threads has known the outcome of it for a long time now when RedDog couldn't get that particular unit (I'm assuming it was his) to tweak properly in the first place.

So once the official blasting is done- can we safely assume cavu, Kras, tradewinds, RedDog and any other critics will get in their last HAHAHA- I told you so, their last dig in at Tom the shrill and THEN LEAVE THIS THREAD NEVER TO RETURN?????????????? That would be the decent thing to do so as not to attempt to rub salt in the wounds of those who have bought the projector and like it. I would hope we can see some semblance of maturity going forward, we'll see.

Jason- certainly no offense toward you as I would never lump you into the category with the others. I have never found you to be anything but fair and helpful.

krasmuzik

10-08-06, 09:21 PM

gottahaveapj

RedDogs projector is not defective. The specific problem he had in calibrating is inherent in the design of the projector. I know why the projector was designed that way because I can see the benefit the designers were shooting for. RedDog's problem is he is a newbie DIY calibrator trying to learn the ropes, whereas I with my many years of experience recognized the problem right away for what it was - and was able to calibrate it out. This was per Red Dog's request because he does not agree with the projector designers intent - but I also did a calibration that accounted for the designers intent. Calibration is the art of compromise applied to the science of video engineering.

And I will not be commenting on my review until RedDog gets it back and we have chance to go over the charts while he can see it on screen. It would not be fair to him to do otherwise. He needs to decide which way is best for him.

Rather than your fanboy fantasy about RedDog intending to buy a defective projector somehow making every effort to ensure his AVS alliance vendor was in on this plan for a local Infocus dealer to put out a faulty review to crush Optoma sales and guitarman with it think again.

I have every business interest in seeing that projectors I review are calibrated the best they can be. I owe that to the customer I am doing it for - and I have every intent of being able to get referrals and calibrating other customers projectors of that same model. With my calibration reviews they will know what they are paying for and if the improvement is worth the mail-in calibration fee. I absolutely compete with guitarman in that mail-in calibration business - and I have every intent of demonstrating I am a better calibrator than him - with better charts - so people send me their projectors rather than tom. Damn straight I want a piece of his Optoma a day calibration biz he claims to have. So it would not serve my calibration biz to lie and cheat on my charts like you are implying - I would much rather have a calibration sale than a projector sale anyways.

And if it does not need calibration because it is perfect out of the box - I say so and tell people not to waste their money on sensors.

So come up with another fanboy fantasy - because yours is not holding up to reality. This is the tweaking thread - and talking about the science of calibration and what these controls do - so that people want to fix their projectors and make it better has every place being discussed here. You cannot talk about tweaking if you don't talk about flaws and how to work around them.

If you do not like that - then click to buy one hook it up to your XBOX and be happy. And I am more than happy to extend the same courtesy I did to Red Dog - if you say your projector is perfect and not defective like you claim his is - then I'll take that bet. If you are right I'll pay your postage and eat the time with the sensor. If you are wrong - you pay for the calibration.

GulfstreamDriver

10-08-06, 09:33 PM

And if it does not need calibration because it is perfect out of the box - I say so and tell people not to waste their money.Krasmuzik

I don't want to take this thread off topic but could you provide a short list of the projectors that you have found to be "close" out of the box?

I was originally looking at the IN76 but thought I might save some money with the HD70. Is the IN76 good out of the box or is there another you could might recommend?

Thanks for your advice.

gottahavapj

10-08-06, 09:37 PM

I have never questioned your expertise Kras nor would I. It's your wanting to rub your expertise in everyone's face that gets old for me. Perhaps it does not for others and to each his own.

This part I find hysterical-

Rather than your fanboy fantasy about RedDog intending to buy a defective projector somehow making every effort to ensure his AVS allaince vendor was in on this plan for an Infocus dealer to put out a faulty review to crush Optoma sales and guitarman with it think again..

A little over the top isn't it?? Like I want to find a conspiracy in this.

For the record I think I am leaning towards an Epson 400 for my next projector as I can't abide by the extreme offsets and throw distance of the current Optoma's. So much for the fanboy theory.

Carry on... I will watch from afar as I really shouldn't be posting in a tweakers thread when I don't own the projector. Same should go for some of the critics as well..

krasmuzik

10-08-06, 09:39 PM

GulfStream that is off topic - but I will simply say - such an occurance is rare in the budget projector forum. It happens more frequently in the spendy projector forum. I have always offered a money back guarantee if I could not improve the numbers on my calibrations - but usually cine4home.de gets to boxes before I do. So I tend to rely on their reviews to decide if someone should have me work on a box or not. They recently reviewed the MitsuHC3100 and MitsuHC1100- but they are only out in Europe - but they did pretty good on presets - and likely would be in the don't waste your money tweaking it. I make that recommendation even though I am not a Mitsu dealer - and I would lose out on MitsuHC3000 calibration biz.

Of course there is always the videophile that every six months needs to make sure it is not drifted even 1% regardless of how close the presets where - I do have those customers and happy to serve their needs!

krasmuzik

10-08-06, 09:45 PM

gottahaveapj

Maybe I am dense - but what else are you implying other than exactly what you said. You expect me to crucify the box - which you claim RedDogs is out of the norm because he could not calibrate. Leaving the obvious implication that I have a business interest in trolling the shills - or something like that.

Feel free to delete your message if you are not comfortable it says what you meant. As it stands it appears to be an attack on my business integrity as well as my technical competency. Do you think I would take kindly to such remarks? If you say I will crucify a box - that is an blatant attack on my technical competency and business integrity.

From what I have seen of cavu's posts - he has a lot of SP4805ers and Bravo owners that want his opinion on should they sidegrade - and will the Bravo work. So he needs to ask the critical questions if it will or not. I did not have time to get to 48Hz so that question remains. From what I understand there was something flaky with the IN76 and that player (don't know the details) - so I get the impression he is trying to help his Bravoites (for lack of a better name) to find a HD projector he would recommend hooking it up to.

mowerman

10-08-06, 10:13 PM

[QUOTE=gottahavapj]I have never questioned your expertise Kras nor would I. It's your wanting to rub your expertise in everyone's face that gets old for me. Perhaps it does not for others and to each his own.

So its not just me who feels that way.
Alittle humility goes a long way in buisness.

cavu

10-08-06, 10:20 PM

From what I understand there was something flaky with the IN76 and that playerUnlike the SP4805, the IN7x series does not support 72Hz frame-lock but fortunately, like the SP4805, the IN7x series does support 48Hz.

It is important that the projector support 48Hz or 72Hz refresh rates (or preferably both) in order to eliminate 3:2 pulldown motion stutter and jitter.

It appears that the HD70 does not support either because, while he first claimed the HD70 did support 48Hz, guitarman withdrew his posting on this issue and did not make any comment on 72Hz.

That's too bad because the HD70 looked like a very promising budget solution (assuming it could be properly calibrated).

krasmuzik

10-08-06, 10:31 PM

cavu

OK I think that is the same as the SP7210 - different circuit in the IN76 - but only the SP4805 did both 48Hz and 72Hz - neat colorwheel trick! The real hat trick will be supporting 120Hz - maybe when LED comes and replace the colorwheel that will be possible - then video/film does not require refresh change. It takes time to find all the flaws with 48Hz performance anyways - so best bit is hope an HTPC/Bravo HD70 owner spends some time with it.

spyder696969

10-08-06, 10:48 PM

Wow, this is one volitile thread! :eek:

I love it. :)

Paladyr1

10-08-06, 11:26 PM

You know I can't help but think how much happier I would be if I had never looked into calibrating my first HDTV. I could just sit there watching my TV thinking it was the greatest while it was no where near D65 lol. Since I know all about this stuff though, I'm glad we got to see that there are some downsides to this budget projector and should perhaps save our money. Makes me feel good that I didn't jump the gun and buy one!

[H]RedDog

10-08-06, 11:59 PM

What I find funny is that I tried to speak the truth and all I got was blasted. I wasnt trying to say anything bad about anyone who liked it. I just thought people should know that this thing had problems before they rushed out and got one like I did. Now I have to start all over and buy another PJ. On top of that I have to find a buyer for my hd70. Its ISFed but I dont know that, thats gonna help it sell. I may end up having to swallow the cost. As a first time projector it will get the job done. I think I'm past the entry level stuff now though. I'm gonna have to spend 2x as much in order to realy be happy. I'm gonna duck out of here for a while I'll post what I think of kras's job on thursday when I get the 70 back. Altough I dout at this point anyone here cares what I think about it anyway. Apparently everyone thinks I bought the hd70 just so I could come on here and trash it.

gottahavapj

10-09-06, 12:14 AM

OK- I never questioned your technical expertise or your business integrity to do an honest review or anything of the sort. You are putting words in my mouth and bending my statements to fit your argument.

I made the probably incorrect assumption that RedDog's HD70 was to flawed out of the box (or possibly defective) to be saved and it should be returned to Optoma or the dealer for perhaps a better functioning unit. When I made the statement that you would probably crucify the box in your review- that belief came from the assumption that you were working with a terribly flawed unit which gave it probably two strikes against it right out of the box. How could it stand on it's own facing that? It was NEVER to imply that you had your mind made up that the projector was crap before you ever got it or that you wouldn't give the proper effort to calibrate it.

I am done with this discussion.

krasmuzik

10-09-06, 12:43 AM

Then please delete your post - because that is the implication anyone gets that will read it - AND is certainly the implication that I got.

If you want professionals in this forum to help you out - challenging their abilities and ethics is not the best way to do it. I will also cleanup the thread if that clearly was not your intent and you delete the thread accordingly. Most of the pros on AVS - be they AVS sales, magazine reviewers, local installers or whatever - only post to the spendy forum because people are more receptive to them knowing more than they do - that is why people PAY them. Red Dog took advantage of my free offer so that I don't have to depend on marketing reps to send me a review unit - but he still paid a fortune for the redeye air freight. Do you think he would fork over those bucks for any reason other than improving his projector?

And anyways the review is not done yet so it is premature to be guessing what you think the outcome is. I only did the HDMI port and that review and subsequent calibration took twenty hours - I still need to do the component port before it has to go back.

DaGamePimp

10-09-06, 01:25 AM

Yikes , I guess I should not have stated what my over-all opinion was ... sorry .

------- Jason

cavu

10-09-06, 01:33 AM

cavu [...] and any other criticsPlease back up your comment and point out one post where I have been critical of the HD70.

blitz6speed

10-09-06, 05:50 AM

This thread hard turned to crap.

First we have Cavu who wont give up his fight that his 400 dollar projector is better then the HD70. Hes told time and time again to go away, yet still doesnt. No one cares about you or your opinion cavu. Take a XanaX and go to a 4805 cheerleading thread.

Then we has Kras whos preaching his Holier then thou method of calibration as if his eyes have seen the light from heaven and are blessed to calibrate better then anyone else on this forum, let alone the earth.

Then we have Gamerpimp whos obviously just tagging along for the ride like so many on forums do. Kras is going to the bathroom, hey look, gamerpimp is headed by the door to wait for him!

Seriously guys. People LIKE their HD70s. I LOVE my HD70. You trying to tell me theres a "push" that only a few people can see isnt going to not make me like the projector any less. Give it up. Its an awesome projector, its got amazing colors once calibrated, and its at a great price as well. Bitch all you want, literally, its not going to change the fact that people are happy with the product. In fact, Kras being a hardcore infocus dealer with Cavu following him like a 3 year old shows that this is just more FUD being spread.

I suggest just leaving the thread and starting a new one entitled "We dont own the HD70, but we're here to tell you why it sucks!" and leave this one to people who you know, actually own a HD70.

krasmuzik

10-09-06, 06:10 AM

blitz6speed

If you think you are better than me at calibration - then fine have at it. The going rate for mail-in calibrations is half of ISF rate - you can make lots of money with your calibration skills like guitarman does on Optomas. You will make even more money then him - because apparently you are so good at it you don't need spendy equipment. This of course assumes people will actually pay you for your well crafted by eye calibrations. AFTER ALL IF YOU LOVE THE COLORS = THEN THEY WILL PAY YOU LOTS OF MONEY TO GET THE SAME LOVELY COLORS.

And if you have not figured out why so many SP4805ers are so interested in the HD70 - it is the same price they paid for their SP4805 - so they want to know if it is worth the sidegrade to get the HD. There is a reason the SP4805 threads got millions of views - but I guess you are hoping for the same millions of views by talking to everyone you can about how lovely you made your HD70 colors. And guess what - if everyone else agrees with you - then that will happen. So keep it up - because just your saying it is all some people need to be convinced. Who needs technical calibration reviews mucking up the works.

ahro

10-09-06, 06:55 AM

I own both the HD70 and HD72. I'm luke warm on the HD70. I have no axe to grind, am not affiliated with any manufacturer or sales force, etc.

I can see blotchiness in the colors in the HD70, but no green push. Sometimes tan faces appear too tan, same for faces toward the red end of the spectrum. I've tried to calibrate by eye -- I would not spend money to professionally calibrate a 1k machine.

The HD70 is not as good as the HD72, which i really like. It is not as bright, too. If i had to do it over again, i would probably spend the extra $400 or so for another HD72. Do i wish I could return the HD70? No, it's good enough for my purposes in a place i have upstate that I visit on weekends. I can live with it until 1080p prices really come down. A far as price/performance, the HD70 is worth the money -- if you understand you're not getting a high end light cannon 720p projector. JM2cents

cyberheater

10-09-06, 07:43 AM

Kras: I'm looking forward to your indepth attempt at calibrating the HD70. I do worry that maybe that reddogs unit might be a bit marginal but I look forward to seeing what you achieve on it.
I've never owned a projector that didn't benefit from careful calibration and lacking the equipment to do it myself, I do count on folks like yourself with the equipment and experience to work out how to squeeze out the last drop of performance from the units.

After all, isn't that what we all come here for.

kamikid

10-09-06, 09:06 AM

From a newbies perspective.

I very am happy with my HD70, however I have nothing else to compare it to. I could probably run myself ragged trying to calibrate/configure it 100%, but I like how it looks so I leave it there. I can live with the fact that it might be off a little bit, but so what? Is that going to make the experience any less enjoyable?

I dont think so.

You guys are getting all bent out of shape for no reason. If you're happy with how it looks, then its calibrated correctly.

Paladyr1

10-09-06, 09:42 AM

I think the problem here, is that there are two sets of people looking to buy this projector:

Group 1: Has no idea how to calibrate grayscale or the color decoder and as long as the picture looks good to them, they are happy. This projector is most likely perfect for this group of people, and if they want to stay happy, NEVER look into how to calibrate to D65 (grayscale) or adjust the color decoder. Just setup brightness and contrast and maybe use the avia disk to get as close as you can on tint and color.

Group 2: Know exactly what a tv calibrated to D65 looks like as well as colors being pushed and therefore demands perfection of any new display device they buy. If it's not quite right, these people can tell right away and it will forever haunt and torment them.

Group 1 people should not take offense to the group 2 people criticizing the projector, nor should they get angry when a group 2 person says that there are problems with this projector. Group 1 people really shouldn't even be in this thread because apparently, the more you learn about "tweaking" your HD70, the more potential you have to be disappointed with it's performance. Just set up your HD70, get the picture the way you like it, and be happy!

tattootearz

10-09-06, 10:56 AM

Group 1: represents the vast majority of consumers and should reconginze that regardless as to what Group 2 (the minority) feels, their negative reviews of the unit will have no quantified affect on the unit's selling potential.

Any consumer looking to substantiate their purchase, will easily be pushed over the fence by the retail & dealer reviews.

Group 2: Good Luck.

*goes to put $25 reserve on MS HD-DVD drive*

spyder696969

10-09-06, 11:16 AM

Group 1: Should be thanking Group 2 for providing the information that can make their "I'm happy with my PJ" even better. If G1 doesn't want to ever want to read the info, then don't. Ignorance can be bliss, but it won't be perfection.

En Sabur Nur

10-09-06, 11:29 AM

[QUOTE=spyder69696 Ignorance can be bliss, but it won't be perfection.[/QUOTE]

Nothing is.

DangerBoy

10-09-06, 11:33 AM

I hate having to sift through 140 replies to find the 4 posts where people actually posted their tweaks, this one included.
Then its the same few people who have got to point out what this projector is missing, blah blah blah, can't produce 1.21 jigawatts of power, yadda yadda, but the IN(insert model number) can.

Thanks for the tweaks by the way. I don't have immediate access to an Avia disc. I have the Sound and Vision version which is a bit simplified.

blitz6speed

10-09-06, 11:38 AM

Im thankful others realise what im tyring to say. Theres going to be a LOT of happy HD70 owners with this price point. Unless your life revolves around everything being at ABSOLUTE PERFECTTION, i suggest a Marantz projector to ease your pain and suffering through lifes very hard times ahead.

Im going to calibrate the PS2 with Avia and report back with S-Video calibration #s. Okami looks pretty off.

WyattERP

10-09-06, 12:32 PM

Yeah, I would say this PJ is great with 360 and Sports HD enthusiasts; which is why they have given this a kick in the out-of-box settings to "push green". Luckily, the color issues can be toned down.

On the other hand:

Watching a darker HD movie last night ("Cast Away" on TNT HD), I noticed that this PJ looks a little off in the dark scenes. I couldn't quite put my finger on what is going on at first. The blacks are remarkedly noise free and solidly dark, but the images seem harsh...then I remembered something; my old Infocus X1 had the "presentation" mode where the white element of the color wheel became active. Enabling this mode gave bright scenes an increased punch, but ultimately, the dark scenes suffered due to the harsh lighting it caused (I would call a "hot" white) - this appears to be what the HD70 is doing. I've read that it uses a white element in the color wheel (as a way to increase contrast), but that there is no way to turn it off. If this is true, than this might be an issue for me. My HT use is mainly 360 gaming and movie watching, so while I have noticed a huge leap in gaming fidelity and clarity, the movie watching seems slightly less enjoyable than my venerable old 4805. I have read that this problem might become less apparent once the lamp settles in (which many H31 owners reported) or by using a ND2 filter to tone down the bright output? Does the H31 have a white element in the color wheel? If so, could it be turned on and off? Is it possible Optoma could release a firmware update that allows you to turn the white element off? I dunno...

Maybe ImageAI will help? Why is that nobody uses ImageAI in this thread or any other thread, yet PJCentral says that using it is a better choice?

I am not hopping on any "HD70 hate band-wagon". I have no affiliation to a brand, and I am no PJ expert. I see a lot of awesome images being pumped out by the HD70. When it shines, it shines amazingly well, and you say to yourself..."WOW...this cost under 1K?"...other times you wonder if something isn't a bit off. I think that one single problem is the white element! Optoma, can this be shut off? Pretty please?

Smarty-pants

10-09-06, 12:33 PM

1.21 Jigawatts??!
1.21 Jigawatts?!?!!!??
So this thing is nuclear???
Open it up. Does it say made in North Korea?

spyder696969

10-09-06, 12:55 PM

Im going to calibrate the PS2 with Avia and report back with S-Video calibration #s. Okami looks pretty off.

"S-Video" :D

ahro

10-09-06, 01:48 PM

Can anyone post their tweaks for a cable STB over HDMI? Thanks.

DaGamePimp

10-09-06, 02:58 PM

Then we have Gamerpimp whos obviously just tagging along for the ride like so many on forums do. Kras is going to the bathroom, hey look, gamerpimp is headed by the door to wait for him!

Why do you always feel the need to insult people on a personal level just because you do not agree with their opinions , you did the same things in the HD DVD/BluRay forums ( so to you I will say try to act more mature as this is not some kiddie gaming forum ) .

When you know as much as I do about HT (let alone as much as kras knows) then maybe people will take you serious and value your opinion of more than just Dude , check these settings ... my 360 is insane on this thing . People here that know me know that I know what I am talking about regarding image quality (even if their opinions differ) so watch who you insult since odds are they probably know more about this stuff than you do .

You are fighting a battle that you cannot win no matter how hard you try , the people that you are contradicting know far more than you do (which is obvious to everyone) and are well respected long time members here at AVS .

Nobody said that there was anything wrong with people being happy with this unit , as a matter of fact I said almost exactly that by stating that as long as your expectations were not too high you would probably be happy with its performance .

Bottom line here is that many will enjoy this unit but there is nothing wrong with bringing its shortcomings to light for those that value that more technical information .

--------- Jason

cavu

10-09-06, 03:26 PM

Why do you always feel the need to insult people on a personal level just because you do not agree with their opinionsIt's just a juvenile response mechanism - when you can't debate the issues, attack the person.

Vacuous politicians do the same thing.

Intelligent people simply learn to ignore them altogether. Sort of like a "brain freeze" - just hold your breath and wait for it to pass.

locopablo

10-09-06, 04:19 PM

http://www.improvresourcecenter.com/mb/images/smilies/popcorn.gif

Paladyr1

10-09-06, 04:24 PM

I wanna see some grayscale tracking charts!!!!

cavu

10-09-06, 04:32 PM

http://www.improvresourcecenter.com/mb/images/smilies/popcorn.gif
Love it!!

cyberheater

10-09-06, 04:52 PM

Can we please try to keep this thread civil.

If you are not actively adding good information to the thread then please don't post.

Thank you.

tattootearz

10-09-06, 05:28 PM

Man I'm afraid to see what happens when they release a 1080p unit for under $500. It wont even be safe to go outside.
hahahhaha....

genro

10-09-06, 05:46 PM

Can we please try to keep this thread civil.

If you are not actively adding good information to the thread then please don't post.

Thank you.

I agree. Where are the mods? They seem quick to jump in anytime someone mentions a non msrp price, yet they let this pissing match continue unabated for days.

There is a time and thread to debate a projectors merits, but as you can see this thread's title is quite self-evident as to what it is for.

DaGamePimp

10-09-06, 06:24 PM

what kind of lumen and contrast #'s did you guys find?

I will leave the exact numbers to kras and reddog but once properly ISF'd (D65) it was worse than an X1/SP4800 regarding CR and Lumens :( .

There are many tweaks that can be done on this unit but at its most accurate point it falls way under spec .

This thread went way off when the personal insults started flying but the thread is here to discuss the more technical side of this unit and for those that cannot handle hearing what the calibration faults are then they should avoid the thread (this thread is more critical as it is focused on tweaking/calibration) . I have seen many calibration threads go bad because some people do not care to hear factual information if it takes anything away from their purchase . But those people need to realize that the thread is here for all to read , even those that are considering a purchase and they deserve to know the facts (this is what AVS is here for) .

--------- Jason

ahro

10-09-06, 06:34 PM

Well, if this is a tweak thread rather than a flame thread, I'll try again:

Can anyone post their tweaks for a cable STB over HDMI? Thanks.

WyattERP

10-09-06, 07:09 PM

I will leave the exact numbers to kras and reddog but once properly ISF'd (D65) it was worse than an X1/SP4800 regarding CR and Lumens :( .

There are many tweaks that can be done on this unit but at its most accurate point it falls way under spec .

--------- Jason

Hmmmm....not quite sure I agree with you there. Maybe I have just forgotten, but my X1 wasn't this colorful or bright, and it was certainly a more noisy image than what I get with the HD70. My only question is whether I can tweak this thing to be better looking than my 4805 - otherwise I will question my upgrade (or "sidegrade") or whatever you want to call it.

DaGamePimp

10-09-06, 07:18 PM

Hmmmm....not quite sure I agree with you there. Maybe I have just forgotten, but my X1 wasn't this colorful or bright, and it was certainly a more noisy image than what I get with the HD70. My only question is whether I can tweak this thing to be better looking than my 4805 - otherwise I will question my upgrade (or "sidegrade") or whatever you want to call it.

The colors are better on the HD70 and remember that I am speaking of ISF D65 level calibration regarding the CR and Lumens (not out of the box) . I can say with certainty that you cannot get a better over-all/accurate image than the 4805 (other than the higher resolution) no matter how much tweaking/calibration you do . This is not only true of the HD70 however , there are many projectors out there that while they offer HD resolution they cannot match some of the 4805's real world specs ;) .

----- Jason

spyder696969

10-09-06, 07:32 PM

...real world specs ;)

Too bad that real world specs don't impress those that live in a fantasy world where manufacturer numbers don't lie and claibrated numbers mean nothing. ;)

locopablo

10-09-06, 07:33 PM

http://www.audioslaved.com/images/smiles/new_argue.gif

MTyson

10-09-06, 07:59 PM

http://www.audioslaved.com/images/smiles/new_argue.gif

LOL.

Uatatoka

10-09-06, 08:53 PM

I only did the HDMI port and that review and subsequent calibration took twenty hours - I still need to do the component port before it has to go back.

Ouch! You're not really making great money per hour there Kras! Hopefully that's only for the 1st HD70 you calibrate - otherwise you could make more flipping burgers, which is just not right ;) I spent at least that much and then some calibrating the HD72, but I figured it was because I was so new to the art of calibration.

And for those of you who think you can calibrate by eye I dare you to get a sensor and see how accurate it really is. I think you'll be surprised...speaking from experience of course :o

Devedander

10-09-06, 09:00 PM

http://www.audioslaved.com/images/smiles/new_argue.gif
:agree:

DaGamePimp

10-09-06, 09:05 PM

Do all you that just linked and quoted that pic not realize that image wasted more bandwidth than much of the text in this thread ;) .

Now let's get it back on topic , which is what some of us are trying to do .

--------- Jason

Devedander

10-09-06, 09:12 PM

krasmuzik

10-09-06, 10:04 PM

Uatatoka

The majority of it is review not calibration time - RedDog has 140 charts he gets to review while he waits for it to come back - just in case anyone be thinking I don't give boxes their justice due.

This never happened on the HD72 because someone refused to take my bet - but if you want to pay me hourly for a review I would be glad to do it! Most people are not so I am happy to get paid for calibration work when I can - and take the review as a promotional hit (assuming that what I work on will benefit with followup mail-in calibration biz from others)

Star56

10-09-06, 10:16 PM

Maybe a better way to put it would be that while this unit breaks a price barrier it does not break a price to performance barrier ;) .

------ Jason

More heresy! Everyone has assured everyone that this thing is the bomb when it comes to price-performance.

Awaiting the review....perhaps the weeks of hyperbole can be put into perspective.

spyder696969

10-09-06, 10:24 PM

So, PROVE everyone wrong, Star56. It's that simple.

krasmuzik

10-09-06, 10:34 PM

Star56

Performance in this thread means SMPTE REC709 which calls out a greyscale that is consistently D65 from white to black, a 2.22 gamma without deviation, and specifies the exact color and brightness that each of RGBCMY should have with respect to the whitepoint. Every single one of these criteria can be objectively measured.

Performance in this thread does not mean more marketed contrast and brightness per pixel per dollar. Save that for the other threads.

mobius

10-09-06, 10:38 PM

No offense but you are coming off as one of the"I do this for a living so I know more than you" kind of guys.

I'm anxiously awaiting Kras's calibration. He's always been a straight shooter in my book. BTW, FWIW I noticed that the HD72 had a greenish/yellow push in Projector Review's side-by-side screenies of the HD72 and the Panny AX100.

AX100 vs. HD72 (http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-06/Panasonic_AX100UvsHD72CinemaPhantomLarge.jpg)

In fairness though:

1) They are screen shots.

2) I don't think that Projector Reviews sensor calibrates their test PJ's.

3) The Panny seems to blowing out reds.

4) Oh, and they're screen shots. :p

krasmuzik

10-09-06, 10:40 PM

PoseidonXXL

10-09-06, 10:53 PM

guitarman

10-09-06, 11:24 PM

No one's ever won a Nobel Prize for adjusting the settings on a projector. Don't let an "expert" make you believe that your JOY over something as inconsequential as an entertainment device is premised on your ignorance.

And to those who feel some perverse need to prove others wrong: let it go.

Sincerely,
Stuart Smalley

I just dropped in. This guys a smart dude. Don't send this projector for tune-ups. Leave it at stock. Just tune the black and whites to your liking. Leave everything else alone. It's stunning as is. I spent the day using my colorfacts system Accupel and the Eye one. In the end setting the machine back to factory did the trick. Colorfacts shows red low by 20%. With the addition of brillant color this is a good thing. And why the factory techs set it up this way.
Enjoy it as is

And if you experts want to retort, I'll really dont want to hear it and will not reply.
cya

JeffKB

10-09-06, 11:31 PM

Don't let an "expert" make you believe that your JOY over something as inconsequential as an entertainment device is premised on your ignorance.

If someone wants to enjoy their projector and be blissfully unaware of its verifiable weaknesses (and all projectors have them), then by all means do so. But why is that person even here then? Is it to read comments that validate his choice, like "It's INSANE, "It's AWESOME", "Dude it ROCKS!"? This forum is to learn, to share experiences, and to get the most out of your system. It's not just for having a lovefest to celebrate one's decision.

Like many people, I'd love to keep this thread on topic, see what Kras' review is, and discuss it rationally. Unfortunately that's not likely to happen. Too many people take criticism of their projector personally - as if it calls into question a person's judgement and intelligence. For first time projector owners (of which there are probably many for the HD70), the awe and joy of finally experiencing a large screen in your home seems to make any criticism of that projector an emotional event.

Read, relax, don't take things personally. You might even learn something that could help you get more out of your system. :)

guitarman

10-09-06, 11:42 PM

Jeff dude do you have an HD70? Like I said this PJ is best left to what the engineers decided to set it up for. HD70 owners don't worry it's an awesome machine and cheap by the way. Relax

mobius

10-09-06, 11:46 PM

mobius

I guaran-damn-tee - my review - will be screenshot free!

Anyone waiting to see pretty pictures best leave now.

Just mind numbing stacks of charts. I did however use the PDF printers version of RGBCMYBW to color code the charts. I cannot guarantee the printer colors are calibrated to REC709.....

Glad to hear it Kras- on with the details! :)

I really don't mind screenies so much, and I do like Art's layman reviews. Screenies are a nice way of spicing up a review for us picture-book readers. :p In seriousness though, I would never base a buying decision on their inclusion. They're just too many uncontrolled variables at play to trust screen shots.

I trust measured data laced with personal, and informed observation.

JeffKB

10-09-06, 11:49 PM

Jeff dude do you have an HD70? Like I said this PJ is best left to what the engineers decided to set it up for.
Well Tom, I guess the mods can close this thread right now then. The HD70 is evidently perfect as is and cannot be improved or tweaked by the user in any way. :rolleyes: :) :p

guitarman

10-09-06, 11:53 PM

That's about it buddy. Let them enjoy their new HD projector.

mobius

10-09-06, 11:55 PM

If someone wants to enjoy their projector and be blissfully unaware of its verifiable weaknesses (and all projectors have them), then by all means do so. But why is that person even here then? Is it to read comments that validate his choice, like "It's INSANE, "It's AWESOME", "Dude it ROCKS!"? This forum is to learn, to share experiences, and to get the most out of your system. It's not just for having a lovefest to celebrate one's decision.

Like many people, I'd love to keep this thread on topic, see what Kras' review is, and discuss it rationally. Unfortunately that's not likely to happen. Too many people take criticism of their projector personally - as if it calls into question a person's judgement and intelligence. For first time projector owners (of which there are probably many for the HD70), the awe and joy of finally experiencing a large screen in your home seems to make any criticism of that projector an emotional event.

Read, relax, don't take things personally. You might even learn something that could help you get more out of your system. :)

I almost wonder if the "Sincerely, Stuart Smalley" tag at the end meant his post was TIC. :p

Anyway, I hope no one takes my opinions as a slam. Even if Kras can't get the HD70 looking perfect, maybe his observations will help people make their HD70 a good BFTB (bang-for-the-buck) projector.

$999 is awful cheap for a 720p DLP PJ!

JeffKB

10-10-06, 12:00 AM

That's about it buddy. Let them enjoy their new HD projector.
Sorry Tom, it's the sacred job of the forum to instill a little angst and uncertainty in every buying decision everyone has ever made - past, present or future.

If Clint Eastwood was here, he would say "Enjoys got nothin' to do with it", before letting you have it with both barrels. :D

Devedander

10-10-06, 12:01 AM

I think something everyone learns sooner or later in life is that if you don't want to see the flaws in something, don't go looking for them...

I don't see why people who are happy with their HD70 have to go and butt heads with those who want to get all the details and absolutes sorted out.

If you don't want to hear about specs at D65 then don't look for them... while I am not one to shout "If you don't like it leave" it does beg why you would go on this forum, and even hang around this thread if you don't like what's being said...

It's not like someone is fabricating stuff or missrepresenting anything, it's (hopefully) all truth, which is sometimes ugly.

So for those who haven't found the joy of finding (and fixing) flaws and are happy with your PJ as is, keep it that way! Lord knows I wish I was that way, would save me a lot of money and stress, but sadly I am one of those people who just can't deal with not knowing all the details.

But for those who can, stop insisting that those who take joy in a different perspective of the item than you do stop so you don't have to risk being exposed to it. If it suits some people to tinker with it in unending toil, let them!

Everyone finds their joy in their own way, let them do so.

spyder696969

10-10-06, 12:05 AM

And to those who feel some perverse need to prove others wrong: let it go.

Agreed. Those that wish to prove others wrong about the faults of the HD70 need to let it go, since they haven't stepped up and proven anything yet. ;)

What most people are clearly missing is that those that discuss the shortcomings of ANY projector are, in the end, seeking a solution in making the PJ better. Where would we be without properly calibrated numbers? Some companies also are careful to eavesdrop upon forums, and thus, in turn, either; come up with firmware solutions/etc to resolve the issues or make the next model better based upon what people such as the fine members of AVS comment upon.

If a PJ came out and everyone agreed how wonderful it was, would a company ever have any need to improve upon it? Since we get new models every 6-24 months, it's safe to assume that there has never been, not will there ever be, a
"perfect" PJ...or anything else for that matter.

In life, there are sacrifices. Maybe your truck has great towing capacity, but sucks gas. Maybe your gf is insanely hot, but is a bitch. Maybe your job pays well, but requires long hours. Maybe...you get the point. Flaws abound everywhere. That's life. Best you can hope for is contentment in whatever small piece of the world you call your own.

If anything like someone pointing out flaws in something you love makes you love it any less, then it's apparent that; you believe them, you accredit their opinion, and you have doubts of your own. How can anything in this world be beyond reproach to those that seek the truth rather than simple praise? :confused:

krasmuzik

10-10-06, 12:26 AM

sypder696969

Mitsu HC3000 is a great example of that BTW. All of the reviews accoladed it for astounding calibrated performance while slamming it for out of box presets. The Mitsu HC3100 took that feedback and fixed the presets and tweaked the hardware so that now you get the performance in the presets and the hardware is tweaked so the brightness/contrast is even better when optimized for performance. But if brightness/contrast is more important than video engineering specs to you - best look elsewhere because you are not going to be seeing it here. The Mitsu HC3100 is only released in Europe - which just goes to show what that market values more.

Definition: tweak: vt. 1. To change slightly, usually in reference to a value.

Bottom line - if you don't have a reference - it ain't tweaking.

gprro1

10-10-06, 12:51 AM

So basicaly this thing is best for gaming and hd sports, and not movies if acurate grayscale and color tracking are are the ultimate goal, And you want to leave it at factoryish presets?

Not as good numbers as the x1. Wonder why I was told it put out 800 lumens with 2700:1 contrast at d65? :confused:

someone else send one in, i want to see if the unit is off.

Star56

10-10-06, 01:29 AM

And if you experts want to retort, I'll really dont want to hear it and will not reply.
cya

Frankly, this is just an idiotic statement. Your word is final??

Do you do your testing in Mom and Dad's basement?

Geesh....

shatten22

10-10-06, 01:35 AM

What most people are clearly missing is that those that discuss the shortcomings of ANY projector are, in the end, seeking a solution in making the PJ better.

These are good points but we live in an imperfect world. I'm all for mapping out the HD70 so we can find ways of making it better, but that's not everyone's motive. So many times I've seen discussions turn ugly - people personally attacking others because their opinion on PROJECTORS doesn't match up to their own. Everyone should relax.

Personally, I wasn't going to buy this projector. After all the talk of green-push I was going to go with a Mits 1000u. Who wants to watch green people? But then I entertained that maybe people are blowing this green thing slightly out of proportion. Cut to the Circuit City deal happening: I basically got $300 off of the sticker price, plus a 4 year "anything goes" warranty and I figured, "hell, I just sold my aging H30 for 400 bucks, this is going to be an upgrade no matter what and it won't break the bank, green people be damned."

A little history: I bought my good old H30 for $1200 three years ago. I thought it was the greatest thing in the world, even though I had to send it back twice and it burnt through three bulbs (two within warranty). It was my first projector. I couldn't believe I had an 84" picture. As I continued using it, I found its' flaws and wanted more. More blacks, more detail, brighter, quieter, more pleasing to the eye. Well, this HD70 - after minor Avia disc calibration and some wacky placement - is friggin' insane.

It's not because the picture is perfect or the colors are perfect. The colors can be a little punchy, but after MINOR tweaking, they get under control. (I don't look at people and wonder why their face is an unnatural color. Maybe technically it straddles the fringe of what is accurate and what is not, but as long as your own discerning eye doesn't care, what does it matter?) It's because it's $999. It's a whole lot of picture for that money. 720p, better blacks, more detail, everything I wanted. The physical case is better looking, quieter, and it feels sturdier. I can keep more lights on in my apartment and the picture is still watchable - And by "watchable" I mean my girlfriend looks at it and says "this is cool," not "why is it so faded?" Many enthusiasts here would probably find it unacceptable, I understand that. That's why none of you will ever be invited to my house. :P

From an H30, it is a big upgrade. And as a holdover until the affordable 1080p units arrive, it's great. I know there are better 720p Darkchip2 projectors out there. But how much better? The nearest in price, the Mits 1000, on it's best street quote is still $300 away. I haven't seen the H1000, so I can't say that the extra $300 is worth it or not. All I can say is that the image that I am watching is causing me no regrets whatsoever. It just looks too good.

Come November, I'm going to get myself a little HD-DVD addon for the Xbox360 (half the cost covered by my free $100 gift card from CC, courtesy of my HD70 purchase), fill up my Netflix que with HD-DVD discs and have a good time. In two years time, I'll sell the HD70 for a third of what I paid for it, and be back on these boards again, looking for the best 1080p DLP proj and combo Blueray HD DVD player 2000 bucks can buy. You guys will still be fighting over the minor details, and we'll all be informed (and entertained) because of it.

It's what's great about these boards.

best
geoff

Lonely Surfer

10-10-06, 01:56 AM

Good post, Geoff, Wait until you run it connected to that HD-DVD player. Man, oh, man. Awesome.

DaGamePimp

10-10-06, 02:04 AM

Geoff ,

Excellent post and I commend you on your honesty even though you own the HD70 , it's too bad that not everyone here is as open minded and willing to accept the bad along with the good :) .

*** Now can somebody post some dang tweaked numbers for the poor guy that keeps asking for cable over HDMI settings ? ***

Best Wishes ,
--- Jason

Jim McC

10-10-06, 02:29 AM

Wouldn't every brand cable box have different settings anyway?

cavu

10-10-06, 02:42 AM

Wouldn't every brand cable box have different settings anyway?With a digital signal (DVI/HDMI) about the only thing that can change is whether they are 7.5IRE (video levels 16-235) or 0IRE (PC levels 0-255).

All of the Motorola boxes are 7.5IRE

cyberheater

10-10-06, 03:36 AM

Colorfacts shows red low by 20%. With the addition of brillant color this is a good thing. And why the factory techs set it up this way.
Enjoy it as is

And if you experts want to retort, I'll really dont want to hear it and will not reply.
cya

So maybe a good candidate for a FLD filter after all?

HT-Naimee

10-10-06, 04:08 AM

Hi all,

Sorry to jump in right at the end here, but I have often heard that the HD70, despite being great for the money, is simply not an overall winner.

The color apparently is totally off which then makes the image seem to bright.

Is this still true and can you get ideal D65 out of the pj without special treatment like filters etc.?

I would like to get myself my first PJ after waiting a long time for either 720p DLP or 1080p LCd to come along and I am thinking of buying the HD70 for two years and then maybe going FullHD.

However, I have seen Sayno Z3 and some other LCDs (not the current models Z5/TX300 etc.) and was never satisfied with what they did.

Would the HD70 just be as bad as those and I will just end up with a pj with poor color and a result I could have goten from an LCD a year ago?

By the way, the settings posted here, are they usable on all HD70s? Won't the fluctuation in quality influence these settings too much?

Cheers,

Alex

DaGamePimp

10-10-06, 04:12 AM

Frankly, this is just an idiotic statement. Your word is final??

Do you do your testing in Mom and Dad's basement?

Geesh....

Star56 ,

While you may not agree with the way Tom makes his plug and then leaves may I ask that you keep it civil so that the thread can continue :) .

Thank You ,
-- Jason

ahro

10-10-06, 05:03 AM

Geoff ,

*** Now can somebody post some dang tweaked numbers for the poor guy that keeps asking for cable over HDMI settings ? ***

Best Wishes ,
--- Jason

Yeah, that would be nice to have some actual tweak numbers. I don't care if each STB is different, it would give me a starting point to see what someone else has come up with. How about some numbers instead of insults? This back and forth is getting old :eek:

cavu

10-10-06, 06:03 AM

Please back up your comment and point out one post where I have been critical of the HD70.... dead silence ...That's what I thought!

Kysersose

10-10-06, 07:48 AM

Okay guys, play nice.

I'll be watching from here on out.... suspensions will follow anymore harassment.

Kyser

HT-Naimee

10-10-06, 09:04 AM

Over here in Germany you can have the HD70 tuned for you. Will I be able to get better results or equal results just using your settings or should I have it tweaked by a pro?

Results of the pro:

http://www.meinheimkino.com/attachments/hd70/Farbverlauf_nachher.jpg
http://www.meinheimkino.com/attachments/hd70/CIE_nachher.jpg

cyberheater

10-10-06, 09:15 AM

Over here in Germany you can have the HD70 tuned for you. Will I be able to get better results or equal results just using your settings or should I have it tweaked by a pro?

Results of the pro:

Great. Can you tell me what contrast figures you have achieved when calibrated and please post your settings. Or a link where you got these figures from.

Thanks.

Adi

10-10-06, 09:24 AM

WyattERP's post quoted here (could not find the original) demonstrates one area where HD70 excels 4805 by a wide margin, resolution. Take a look at the video game caputres in full size.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8600062&&#post8600062

OTOH, HD70 colors look like crap in those shots. It could be that the poster got a bad unit.

Question for gurus like cavu and krasmuzik is, if HD70's grey scales and colors could be calibrated properly, why does it need 48Hz or 72Hz frame-locks to better 4805?

Lets consider two sources:

1. DVD:
A properly calibrated HD70 with a decent upscaling DVD-P like Oppo
Vs.
SP4805 with pixel mapped D1

2. Broadcast HD material at 1080i/720p
A properly calibrated HD70
Vs.
SP4805

I am not sure how the first source compares. Here we are essentially discussing upscaling vs eliminating 3:2 pulldown at native resolution.

For the second source, HD70 would be the winner, theoritically atleast.

How do you view these two hypothetical situation? Please expland/explain/educate me.

As a happy 4805/D1 owner, I am open to a 720p budget projector as long as its CR and color accuracy are comparable to that of 4805. Two biggest issues for me with 4805 are, large pixels on 105" screen which are occationally visible from 16.5 feet (when I am wearing the glasses) and loss of detail on HD material.

PS: Guys cool down. We are all here to learn from each other.

WyattERP

10-10-06, 09:54 AM

HT-Naimee

10-10-06, 09:58 AM

@Cyberheater: I see that you already found the german forum before I could answer you. Should someone else be interested, here is the link http://www.meinheimkino.com/thread.php?postid=47209#post47209

@Adi: Do you mean to suggest that with non-HD-material the Optoma might actually be worse than a 4805?

My main source will be a Naim Audio DVD5 DVDPlayer and will remain the main source for a while. HD is not as widely spread in Germany and I am currently not looking to buy a HD-Player until BluRay really kicks off.
So would you not recommend the HD70 anymore?

HeadRusch

10-10-06, 10:04 AM

Its expected that anything Hot and Cheap is going to get more than its share of fiery proponents/opponents. I didn't buy a $1k PJ and expect it to be perfect.

I can't tolerate any GLARING flaws, like a horriffic CR or really bad red/green/blue push that destroys fleshtones and the like.....barring that, I'm willing to live with simple issues for the money I spent. There were issues with the H31, there will likely be issues in the future with other PJ's I buy assuming I buy on the cheaper side of the bell curve.

This whole "Whos PJ is better.." stuff has definately run its course....it is what it is, there are other options for slightly more money that may do you better if you need certain things that this PJ wont deliver.

So when are we going to be gifted with the results of the HD70 Calibration done on RedDog's unit? Instead of Doom and Gloom I'd be more interested in seeing just what it does and does not do.

talon95

10-10-06, 10:07 AM

This is interesting too. If the HD70 is really so poorly calibrated, is this also true fo the HD72? From everything I've read, they seem to be very similar. The HD72 has been very popular.

Dave G.

Adi

10-10-06, 10:12 AM

[QUOTE=HT-Naimee@Adi: Do you mean to suggest that with non-HD-material the Optoma might actually be worse than a 4805?
QUOTE]

No, I am asking questions, not suggesting anything.

HT-Naimee

10-10-06, 10:24 AM

OK, then I will ask:

IS the Optoma purely recommended for HD or is it just as brilliant for DVDs (PAL and NTSC)? Or would you then recommend something else instead?

WyattERP

10-10-06, 10:31 AM

OTOH, HD70 colors look like crap in those shots. It could be that the poster got a bad unit.

Yes, the colors on my HD70 are crazy. I kind of hope I have a bad unit, I have no idea how to get them looking better. I am not an RGB master by any stretch of the imagination. PJCentral says the things is "close to D65 out of the box", but this isn't true in my case. Calibrating with the DVE DVD leads me to believe the blue/red channels are close enough, with green being off (by how much, I have no idea). So things don't appear bad OTB, but in viewing I find the greens to be nearly flurescent and my whites look bluish - I think, if you compare a few of my screenshots, you will see what I mean:

http://websnappy.com/imagehost/PJCompare/FootballGame_HD70.JPG
http://websnappy.com/imagehost/PJCompare/FootballGame_4805.JPG

Is my PJ defective? Or can tweaks help this issue?

TroyM

10-10-06, 11:04 AM

This whole "Whos PJ is better.." stuff has definately run its course....it is what it is, there are other options for slightly more money that may do you better if you need certain things that this PJ wont deliver.

You are right which is why we as consumers discuss these things. How can we make an informed buying decision if we don't know what we are getting. With few exceptions, I'm confident most of the discussion about this is to truly learn the characteristics of the HD70 unit. Only then can one decide if it works for him. How can you decide if you can live with something if you aren't aware that it exists?

In my case, I'm in serious upgrade mode. I want to replace my SP4805 with a 720p unit. The HD70 is candidate but I want to know every thing there is to know about it before buying. This isn't to prove that it's a "bad" unit but rather so I can make an informed decsion. Maybe I can live with a slight greenish tint. The SP4805 was/is criticized incessantly due to its fan volume. Why? Because the fan is loud. It's an observable fact. I learned that in advance on these forums and made an informed decision that I didn't care. It's a flaw that I chose to accept.

So, why am I as non-owner posting in the HD70 Tweaks thread? I want to see more tweaks. I want to know if any of the observed issues can be tweaked out. If so, they become non-issues. If they can't be, I can determine how much importance I place on them. I can then make an informed decision.

spyder696969

10-10-06, 11:12 AM

Yes, the colors on my HD70 are crazy....
http://websnappy.com/imagehost/PJCompare/FootballGame_HD70.JPG
http://websnappy.com/imagehost/PJCompare/FootballGame_4805.JPG

I'm glad you brought up those two shots again, WyattERP. At first glance, I was wondering why you took shots of two completely different games. Then, once I looked at the scorebox, I realized they were the same game, but that the colors were insanely off on everything from the jerseys/pants have that blue tint to the grass being ridiculously green. The question that keeps popping up in my mind is: Why didn't you take the comparative shots from the same frames of the games (both football and 360)?*

*Assuming, of course, that you have some sort of PVR/DVR, which shouldn't be considered pretentiontious to assume considering your other equipment.

cyberheater

10-10-06, 11:26 AM

augiedoggy

10-10-06, 11:32 AM

well thier is no comparision between my x1 and my new HD70...Ialthough think they were going after the whole over the top colors and contrast of a plasma with this one...its the best way I can describe it...by actually using it. once I toned down the contrast to bring out a little more of the shadow detail it seemed to be crushing I have to say I'm more than thrilled with this thing...then again I don't expect this thing to perform as if it were a 3K or even 2K projector....there is supposed to be a reason one would pay that much....its called better performance. that being said I think without over ANALizing a sub 1K projector it puts out an awsome picture everone who's seen mine absolutly loves it...I will say that while watching the new Xmen movie last night thier was a couple scenes where I was wondering if I was seeing a green push....this however is not the case 98% of the time..like I said before yellows look identical to my x1..so that seems to be a bit of a DLP issue I think. If there's anything they should address with new firmware the whole green thing would be it I guess.
It is what it is people..having a pissing match over who's opinions right or wrong won't do much to change it..and certainly doesnt belong in this the tweakers thread that was created for the HD70 owners to post and non owners to read.
That bickering should have stayed over at the last two threads on this projector that have already gone to sh*t because of it.

HeadRusch

10-10-06, 11:39 AM

OK, then I will ask:

IS the Optoma purely recommended for HD or is it just as brilliant for DVDs (PAL and NTSC)? Or would you then recommend something else instead?

I've only used my HD70 with SD dvd's so far.................and I'll never go back to anything else. Course I'm using the Tosh HD player as my upscaling DVD player, but its just that good.

WyattERP

10-10-06, 11:47 AM

@spyder

The HD-DVR is upstairs. It's more convenient to be hooked up to the "everyday" TV. I used to have one downstairs back when we had TWC Cable, but the VIP-622 from dish cost 300 buckaroos, and I couldn't justify two of them. I may move it downstairs to do some more comparisons, but it's a bit of a pain (or maybe I am just lazy?)!

So is there any solution to my color issue?

@cybertheater

Wow...this seems like good news if indeed true.

snowblitzing

10-10-06, 11:47 AM

I just bought the HD70 at Circuit City. This is my first DLP projector. What are some of the best Projector screens for this unit. The size I want is around 100" . It will be ceiling mounted. I do have a pretty dark room as well. Any help would be great. Last night I put it on the wall and it blew away my old LCD projo.

V.X.Donique

10-10-06, 11:49 AM

Revisiting useless screenies,

i remembered reading the H27 thread and came across beagle five's screenshots and was amazed how they looked (for a 480p machine).

http://www.minhembio.com/produktbilder/30211

regardless of resolution, they look damn nice. If the HD70 has potential to look like this or better, i might pick one up for the media room.

WyattERP

10-10-06, 11:51 AM

fru

10-10-06, 12:12 PM

I am a first time projector owner and a total noobie. I just set up my hd70 yesterday and I see the green push all over. I am using a Panasonic dvd player and components to connect.

Can somebody tell me what settings to use for colors so that the green push goes away.

Thanks

blitz6speed

10-10-06, 12:33 PM

Care to post your numbers? What does "toned down contrast" equal in numbers?

Wyatt

Did you try the settings i posted for HDMI?

WyattERP

10-10-06, 12:47 PM

Wyatt

Did you try the settings i posted for HDMI?

Yeah, I actually did try your settings. I wasn't sure if it was accurate or not...but the image looked funky to me big time. I'll try again with some more sources though, I simply tried it watching "Cast Away" the other night.

blitz6speed

10-10-06, 01:24 PM

Yeah, I actually did try your settings. I wasn't sure if it was accurate or not...but the image looked funky to me big time. I'll try again with some more sources though, I simply tried it watching "Cast Away" the other night.

Thats odd.

Ive had 6+ pms from people saying my settings look perfect for HDMI. I also have myself, my cousin and about 2 local friends who all have HD70s using the same settings with perfect success. Everything looks great! I get my camera back tonight, i'll be posting pics ASAP. Ill be showing HD movies (lots of them), some SD shows on cable, and lots of Xbox 360.

buttons252

10-10-06, 01:27 PM

I just got my HD70 last evening and havent had much time to spend with it. I put in terminator two WMVHD played through my laptop via a vga cable. out of the box settings looked excellent. This is my first projector but i thought it kicked ass... just being put on a blank white wall. Then i played some other dvd's and the only thing bad i have to say about it is the lack of DVI-D cable. I havent tried the component cables, and never plan to.. everytime I have it has made the colors look horrid on everything. My fathers 61" 1080i tv looks gross with component cables. Good with DVI.

This projector is worth every penny. :-)

Adi

10-10-06, 01:37 PM

Yeah, I actually did try your settings. I wasn't sure if it was accurate or not...but the image looked funky to me big time. I'll try again with some more sources though, I simply tried it watching "Cast Away" the other night.

Dont try to fix it. There is something wrong with the unit. If you can return/exchange it, do so. Otherwise, send it for servicing.

fru

10-10-06, 01:53 PM

blitz6speed,

Can I use your setting over components also or just over hdmi?

HT-Naimee

10-10-06, 02:57 PM

Hi,

Given that some of you have invested so many hours in tuning your HD70s, you probably have charts of your D65 etc.

So would you say you can use your settings to get more or less the same perfect result I would get by having it tuned/tweaked by the dealer for extra cash?

Please don't ignore me :(

cavu

10-10-06, 03:16 PM

For the sake of this discussion, let's assume that the calibrated HD70 has the same overall PQ as the SP4805 and the only difference is 720p versus 480p:1. DVD:
A properly calibrated HD70 with a decent upscaling DVD-P like Oppo
Vs.
SP4805 with pixel mapped D1Assuming an "AVS standard D1 setup" (1:1 pixel-mapped 854x480@48/72Hz over DVI/HDMI), the PQ of the HD70 will not be as good as the PQ of the SP4805. The very simple reason is that the HD70 image is not 1:1 and has to be upscaled; and the HD70 does not support 48/72Hz frame-lock and will suffer from the inevitable 3:2 pulldown motion artifacts.2. Broadcast HD material at 1080i/720p
A properly calibrated HD70
Vs.
SP4805The HD70 will have the superior PQ over the SP4805 for HDTV, HD-DVD and XBOX (720p) at viewing distances of less that 2x screen width. At greater distances, it becomes a wash.

Note: A D1 pixel-mapped to the HD70 at 1280x720@60Hz will be at least as good, if not better, than an Oppo at 720p, even if 2:2/3:3 is not available.As a happy 4805/D1 owner, I am open to a 720p budget projector as long as its CR and color accuracy are comparable to that of 4805.This is precisely the issue that I have been trying to determine vis a vis the HD70! Unfortunately, it seems that will not be the case (pending formal results from Kras). Two biggest issues for me with 4805 are, large pixels on 105" screen which are occationally visible from 16.5 feet (when I am wearing the glasses) and loss of detail on HD material.This is strictly a seating distance issue. You are sitting just at 2x screen width which is the minimum recommended. If the SDE is bothersome to you, it's a judgment call: reduced PQ on std def DVDs versus improved PQ on HD, etc. If your viewing distance was greater, it would be less and less of an issue to the point that the screen resolution becomes irrelevant. But sitting at the minimum 2x or less, the 720p certainly will reduce SDE.

Now, for the sake of discussion, let's assume that the calibrated HD70 does not have the same overall PQ as the SP4805: For the conditions you outlined, an SP4805 owner will not likely be happy with the HD70 although newbies and less critical users may be thrilled.

Lastly, for the sake of discussion, let's assume that the calibrated HD70 is superior to the SP4805 in overall PQ: it becomes a no-brainer to select the HD70 unless you are a serious std def DVD collector. In that instance, you will have to evaluate the loss of 1:1 pixel-mapping and 2:2/3:3 operation against better colours/contrast, etc.

* Frame-lock statements based on information provided to date!

billymac

10-10-06, 03:22 PM

nice post. all good points, especially the seating distance.

cyberheater

10-10-06, 03:56 PM

Adi

10-10-06, 04:03 PM

Cavu,

Thanks for taking time to respond in detail. Few questions, however.

The HD70 will have the superior PQ over the SP4805 for HDTV, HD-DVD and XBOX (720p) at viewing distances of less that 2x screen width. At greater distances, it becomes a wash.

Is that because, human eye cannot perceive the greater details and sharpness of HD image over 2x distances?

Note: A D1 pixel-mapped to the HD70 at 1280x720@60Hz will be at least as good, if not better, than an Oppo at 720p, even if 2:2/3:3 is not available.

Good point. I didnt use D1 with HD70 in my example because, HD70 lacks DVI.

Now, for the sake of discussion, let's assume that the calibrated HD70 does not have the same overall PQ as the SP4805: For the conditions you outlined, an SP4805 owner will not likely be happy with the HD70 although newbies and less critical users may be thrilled.

I am not sure you can say with any degree of certainity. Just a couple of days ago, I watched AE900 in a show room under horrible conditions. Eventhough, the color rendition and contrast ratio are no where near that of 4805, images are certainly more fluider, smoother, more film like than 4805. If the colors and CR of AE900 is even at 80-90% of 4805, it is worth considering that upgrade. That is the point I am trying to raise. HD70 doesnt have to be "as good as" 4805 to excel. It just needs to come close enough. Question is, how close is close enough.

cyberheater

10-10-06, 04:15 PM

The HD70 will have the superior PQ over the SP4805 for HDTV, HD-DVD and XBOX (720p) at viewing distances of less that 2x screen width. At greater distances, it becomes a wash.

I do agree with this. At around 2 x screen width, the human eye is pretty much saturated with detail from a 720p set. Any further away and you can't physically see the detail.

Which makes me wonder why folks buy 1080P projectors and sit at normal viewing distances. They simply will not see the extra detail.

cavu

10-10-06, 04:19 PM

Is that because, human eye cannot perceive the greater details and sharpness of HD image over 2x distances?Generally, yes. The accepted minimum viewing distances are as follows: 480p 2x screen width 576p 1.67x screen width 720p 1.33x screen widthI didnt use D1 with HD70 in my example because, HD70 lacks DVI.A DVI-D<=>HDMI cable or adapter works fine.It just needs to come close enough. Question is, how close is close enough.You're the one who set out the parameters for my response: "as long as its CR and color accuracy are comparable to that of 4805"! ;)

The HD70 will certainly be a retail success in the short term at its price point. It will obviously make a good sports/gaming box.

But it's unilateral success will fade quickly when more capable products are brought to the market by Optoma's competitors. Optoma deserves all the credit in the world for forcing the DLP market down to this price point but it won't be their exclusive domain for long.

Adi

10-10-06, 04:34 PM

Generally, yes. The accepted minimum viewing distances are as follows: 480p 2x screen width 576p 1.67x screen width 720p 1.33x screen width

Arent those distances determined to avoid the visibility of pixels themselves and have nothing to do with the visibility of details in the image. For example, in std def CRT tvs, viewing distance is recommended to be 5x.

krasmuzik

10-10-06, 04:56 PM

That is because standard def TV's have huge scan line gaps as well as interlace flicker that meens you need to sit further away - as well they are so small that if you set that close nobody else would be able to see the TV.

The numbers quoted by cavu are ones that balance SDE vs. digital artifiacts vs. standard vision. Your vision, artifact and SDE sensitivity may vary - so use those numbers as a guideline. I do in my installs and have found nobody that likes sitting closer - some like sitting further away. The oft quoted THX/SMPTE standard viewing angles will have you sitting further away - because they are back row specs for commercial theaters.

cavu

10-10-06, 05:01 PM

Arent those distances determined to avoid the visibility of pixels themselves and have nothing to do with the visibility of details in the image.A pixel is the minimum "picture element" of the image which corresponds to the finest available picture detail.

One you are unable to see an individual pixel, the picture detail likewise begins to merge.

If you are really seriously interested in optimum viewing distances, angles, etc., I urge you to visit the THX and SMPTE sites. Here's some data on the topic:

Maximum recommended viewing distance: Based on data from Electrohome, which suggests a viewing distance of three to six screen widths for video. This corresponds to the point at which most people will begin having trouble picking out details and reading the screen. Probably too far away to be effective for home theater, OK for everyday TV viewing. Most people are comfortable watching TV between this distance and half this distance.

Maximum SMPTE recommended viewing distance: SMPTE standard EG-18-1994 recommends a minimum viewing angle of 30 degrees for movie theaters. This seems to be becoming a de facto standard for front projection home theaters also. Viewing from this distance or closer will result in a more immersive experience, and also lessen eye strain caused by watching a smaller image in a dark room.

Maximum and Recommended THX viewing distances: THX also publishes standards for movie theaters to adhere to for THX certification. THX requires that the back row of seats in a theater have at least a 26 degree viewing angle and recommends a 36 degree viewing angle.

Viewing Distances based on Visual Acuity: These distances are calculated based on the resolving power of the human eye (reference), or visual acuity. The human eye with 20/20 vision can detect or resolve details as small as 1/60th of a degree of arc. These distances represent the point beyond which some of the detail in the picture is no longer able to be resolved and "blends" with adjacent detail.

Here's the viewing distance calculator (http://www.myhometheater.homestead.com/viewingdistancecalculator.html) where this info was posted.

krasmuzik

10-10-06, 05:01 PM

HT-Naimee

is correct - it can be perfectly calibrated on greyscale and gamma - and has decent color. It is not easy to do without much experience, RedDog as a newbie DIY calibrator failed and is why he chose me to do it.

I will not discuss my detailed measures and subjective impressions yet out of courtesy to RedDog who has the review but not the projector. I calibrated component 480P and HDMI 720P - it calibrated fine on both.

It is up to him to decide if that accuracy is worth the cost.

krasmuzik

10-10-06, 05:08 PM

Question for gurus like cavu and krasmuzik is, if HD70's grey scales and colors could be calibrated properly, why does it need 48Hz or 72Hz frame-locks to better 4805?

As a Bravo/SP4805 owner you should know the answer to that. Just like as you see here - those who have actually seen a REC709 (HD) or SMPTE-C (SD) colors with D65 cannot watch anything else without seeing flaws. The SP4805 is optimized for near SMPTE-C colors - not only because it is a DVD unit - but because they are brighter colors - and also many top ISF recommend setting even REC709 displays back to SMPTE-C which is how current HD mastering is done.

The same inability to accept anything less is true of those who finally see 2:2 or 3:3 pull down at 48/72Hz for the first time. It gives you the same fluidity you have with real film - as opposed to the 3:2 judder inherent in a 60Hz video of a film. It is one of those intolerable to watch things.

It does not mean it need be a criteria for those who have never seen such a thing - but for those who have - it is an absolute criteria. Which you should take to mean - never go see a 2:2 or 3:3 display - as it WILL become your criteria as well. And if you have not done the 48Hz/72Hz tweak on your current setup - talk to cavu as he will show you the light!

krasmuzik

10-10-06, 05:17 PM

I was watching Monday Night Football last night (duh) and noticed that the Bronco's jerseys just didn't really look orange, but rather red, or maybe red-orange, but mostly red...or something like that. I switched on my TV upstairs and found that the orange was so much more vibrant. I am no RGB tweak master, and failed miserably at getting the orange to look anything like it was upstairs.

So how can I tweak this HD70 to have less pronounced greens (read "less fluorescent") and more accurate orange? I know that the colors on this thing are a bit wacky, so I am just asking for advice. I am not asking for spot on D65 calibration, I don't expect any sub $1K PJ to be perfect, but if I can't tweak this thing appropriately to find pleasing colors, I might be putting the 4805 back up. My patience is wearing thin!

-Wyatt

I posted how to do this earlier in the thread.

Using standard colorbars - adjust the RGB gains in the advanced menu so that the CMY on the colorbars look balanced. Yellow is easiest, Cyan is a off sky-blue - neither green nor blue, magenta is neither purple nor crimson. Look at the posted CIE gamut chart - Yellow is between Red/Green - so you know Blue cannot control Yellow - only Red/Green can.

Get the Yellow right - you can get the Orange right. Here is the big hint - set Brilliant Color to 0 or maybe 3 - no more. However I would not be comparing to your TV - your TV probably has severe red push - which makes anything near red glow - that is not vibrant color - that is wrong color.

If you do this with the 75IRE colorbars you will still hot colors and whites - so you might also want to do this with the 100IRE colorbars (you need AVIA) Though you may find you need to lower contrast (or equally RGB gains) to get the colors to match at 100IRE. You will find that once you correct the colors - you have corrected the bright greyscale. Now put up a greyscale steps pattern and tune the RGB gains to balance out the dark blacks with the whites.

What you have now done is adjusted the greyscale - and the non-primary colors are dependent on the greyscale.

You need a digital RGB source with known good tint to do this. My Accupel HD video generator I use cost more than the projector - but there are some good HDMI/DVI DVD players out there. Upconverting is not relevant - as the 480P and 720P greyscale memory is the same one.

Now a greenish Grey results in greenish Yellow - which results in yellowish Orange. So it maybe that you don't have just a greyscale problem. So go back earlier in the chain - are your component connections correct (find a HDnet or late night test patterns). Do you have your cable box set for 720P? Does you cable box decode DVI/HDMI properly to RGB if that is what you are using? If the same connections on the SP4805 look right - then I think we can rule out the source. It looks like both screens have blue&red in the pics - so I tend to rule out connection issues (though I think you have the color control too high on your SP4805 - you can crank your HD70 color just as well)

Hopefully the unruly element calling you an Infocus shill for seeing what you see have left - anyone else have an idea what is wrong with the pics?

krasmuzik

10-10-06, 05:52 PM

cyberheater

do you have a link to that german review - that is not a cine4home.de chart. Are you sure it was an HD70 review not an HD72 review?

The marketed spec without TrueAI engaged is only 3000:1 - so a <20% loss for calibrated simply is not feasible - as there is no IRIS (and nobody here is even using TrueAI)

cavu

10-10-06, 06:02 PM

do you have a link to that german reviewhttp://www.meinheimkino.com/thread.php?threadid=7659

blitz6speed

10-10-06, 06:11 PM

Wow, shocking, that was have Kras and Cavu back to back posting in the HD70 thread, yet again. I guess the doctors are too busy to prescribe some valium for you 2 to realise you are not wanted round these parts? This is the tweakers thread for OWNERS to post their calibrations. Go start another thread for your infernal bitching and crying. Cavu being a hardcore Infocus supporter and Kras a hardcore Infocus dealer. 2 people who should NOT BE IN THIS THREAD. It pains me as i smoke my cuban Romeo and Juliet cigar and sip on my merlot that there are people so troubled in the world, they go on forums and bitch bitch bitch.

Such is the case here.

I came back to this thread to see if anyone else posted any calibration numbers, but all i get are 2 people who dont own the projector trying to bitch to those that do.

krasmuzik

10-10-06, 06:25 PM

cyberheater

something screwy is lost interpretation - he said he got 2250:1 in the uncalibrated out of box - but 2500:1 tweaked to D65...find out if he did any filter or IRIS tweaks - or if he had true AI engaged.

But surely you can see that D65 tweaking without such tricks is never going to increase the contrast! Look at where he started in the first CIE diagram- very greenish. Green is responsible for luminance and contrast. So clearly he had to cut green to accomplish the D65 goal a lot - which means a lot of luminance and contrast will be cut.

Are you sure he is talking about the HD70 when he quoted that number - as someone else brought up other boxes in that thread - maybe he was referring to those calibrations! Do you read german - I get germanglish from alta vista....or I take it the cyberheater in that thread is you?

krasmuzik

10-10-06, 06:29 PM

blitz6speed

If you have nothing to provide but abusive attacks - then leave the thread.

I just posted to an HD70 owner how he can use test patterns to try to DIY calibrate as he specifically requested.

Maybe you should go buy a test DVD and quietly learn about calibration yourself - since the one asking for calibration help - has already posted your numbers were funky on his box - either every box is different - or you don't know how to calibrate with test patterns.

---------------

Today, 10:47 AM #223 (Print)
WyattERP
Member

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 23 Quote:
Originally Posted by blitz6speed
Wyatt

Did you try the settings i posted for HDMI?

Yeah, I actually did try your settings. I wasn't sure if it was accurate or not...but the image looked funky to me big time. I'll try again with some more sources though, I simply tried it watching "Cast Away" the other night.

mobius

10-10-06, 06:31 PM

I can't tolerate any GLARING flaws, like a horriffic CR or really bad red/green/blue push that destroys fleshtones and the like.....barring that, I'm willing to live with simple issues for the money I spent. There were issues with the H31, there will likely be issues in the future with other PJ's I buy assuming I buy on the cheaper side of the bell curve.

I agree completely HeadRusch.

Glaring, unfixable flaws worry me. If something *can* be tweaked in spite of itself, then I'm willing to give up some things to gain others. As so many have said, it's a matter of trade-offs, so which one(s) do you want to live with? What one is willing to live with is ultimately individual, but I feel like everyone should know what the trade-offs are.

tsteves

10-10-06, 06:49 PM

This thread is really interesting!
While I can understand the angst of hd70 owners who are upset to hear posts about the imperfections of their purchases, I highly disagree with them trying to push off those who are trying to give us all some basic scientific facts about the product. Some of us want to know the facts.
Green push is not something that is trivial. Fixing it is not trivial, if even possible. Sure you could just use it with an RGB source to get around the decoder, but how many set top boxes put out RGB? Not many. Is it a good HTPC pj?
I am looking forward to kras's review myself.
I am a bit dissapointed in tom's "don't worry, be happy" attitude. Engineers are responsible for the setups we see "out of the box" on most displays, and they are not very pretty. Not their fault, of course.
This is AV bloody Science! A free review by Kras is , er , free! Read it if you want or go visit Yahoos sexy picture of the day!

HeadRusch

10-10-06, 07:07 PM

I dont see anyone getting upset that the HD70 isn't the best PJ in the world AND it happens to only cost $1000...............I just see personality conflicts.

If the PJ has green push or requires a heavy duty calibration to get it normal, so be it. To alot of people (a *lot* of people) they'll never know the difference, coming from non-tweaked Sony WEGA's and LCD or Plasma sets with colors and CR ratios all over the spectrum.

Tom is coming from the point of view that the thing looks good...enjoy it. Kras is saying "it may look good, but its not accurate, and making it accurate is a real pain and introduces some problems of its own in the CR/Brightness department" (From what I can gather, we'll know more when RedDog gets his unit, I imagine).

Frankly, I want to hear a detailed review..i want to see how the unit measures up, and where it fails. There are few projectors out there that are perfect, at any cost....they all have one failing or another. If there was a perfect PJ out there at every bracket, we'd all own one of those. But some of us own Optoma, some own Infocus, some Panny and some Sanyo and a few with deep pockets own Sony :)

Just ignore the war of words and thinly-veiled jabs.......we're waiting to see the pros and cons of this $1000 unit.

This is no different than the "Smoothscreen on my Panny RULES" vs. "Smoothscreen looks blurry, Smoothscreen SUCKS!" arguements.....its all in the perception of the owner. Some people care if it'll calibrate to D65....some people don't.....but I wouldn't say anyone here is trying to shove their head in the sand.

Kysersose

10-10-06, 07:10 PM

WyattERP

10-10-06, 07:14 PM

I posted how to do this earlier in the thread.

Using standard colorbars - adjust the RGB gains in the advanced menu so that the CMY on the colorbars look balanced. Yellow is easiest, Cyan is a off sky-blue - neither green nor blue, magenta is neither purple nor crimson. Look at the posted CIE gamut chart - Yellow is between Red/Green - so you know Blue cannot control Yellow - only Red/Green can.

Get the Yellow right - you can get the Orange right. Here is the big hint - set Brilliant Color to 0 or maybe 3 - no more. However I would not be comparing to your TV - your TV probably has severe red push - which makes anything near red glow - that is not vibrant color - that is wrong color.

If you do this with the 75IRE colorbars you will still hot colors and whites - so you might also want to do this with the 100IRE colorbars (you need AVIA) Though you may find you need to lower contrast (or equally RGB gains) to get the colors to match at 100IRE. You will find that once you correct the colors - you have corrected the bright greyscale. Now put up a greyscale steps pattern and tune the RGB gains to balance out the dark blacks with the whites.

What you have now done is adjusted the greyscale - and the non-primary colors are dependent on the greyscale.

You need a digital RGB source with known good tint to do this. My Accupel HD video generator I use cost more than the projector - but there are some good HDMI/DVI DVD players out there. Upconverting is not relevant - as the 480P and 720P greyscale memory is the same one.

Now a greenish Grey results in greenish Yellow - which results in yellowish Orange. So it maybe that you don't have just a greyscale problem. So go back earlier in the chain - are your component connections correct (find a HDnet or late night test patterns). Do you have your cable box set for 720P? Does you cable box decode DVI/HDMI properly to RGB if that is what you are using? If the same connections on the SP4805 look right - then I think we can rule out the source. It looks like both screens have blue&red in the pics - so I tend to rule out connection issues (though I think you have the color control too high on your SP4805 - you can crank your HD70 color just as well)

Hopefully the unruly element calling you an Infocus shill for seeing what you see have left - anyone else have an idea what is wrong with the pics?

Phew...this is making my head spin, but I really appreciate your time in spelling out this stuff to the community. I am gonna give blitzes HDMI setting on more try tonight, and then I will reset and try following the advice you have given. BTW, is the Digital Video Essentials DVD a decent disc for calibration? That's the only disc I have at the moment. Also, I have my 360 hooked up via VGA...does this escape the internal color decoder issues; and if so, why are my 360 colors so pale over this connection?

I also believe that all my cables are hooked up properly. Like I said, the HD70 looks good 75% of the time (unless there is green in the scene 100% of the time), it's the other 25% that bothers me. I set my Dish Network HD box to 720P, and have tried it over both HDMI and Component. I feel component has the worse color settings OTB, but the HDMI isn't stellar either. VGA is solid in that greens don't appear to be blown out, but then again, all the colors appear dull at the moment (I have my 360 hooked up via VGA).

Oh yeah, one more thing, do I need to mess with RGB bias at all, or will I just end up hurting myself? Let's see, 6 settings with 100 positions equals how many possible combinations? Hahaha...

Yes, my 4805 had exploding overstaturated colors via VGA. I think I may have been a bit tipsy one night and felt like seeing big bold crazy colors! This is proof that I haven't gotten accustomed to D65 or anything near perfection.

:D