I was really impressed by the 'apparent increase' in sharpness of the smx screen compared to the piece of paper. Would it make sense to get this material even if its not required for acoustic properties. Cliff do you have any Stewart screen samples to see how the effect translates to non-acoustically transparent material.

Also someone on the screens forum said they looked closely through a magnifying glass and couldn't see any directional weave properties. In other words the material could be put on its side and get the same image. Do you agree? Would make it a lot cheaper as the material comes 98" wide.

That's something many people (even with digital projectors) experience with the SmX. The tiny perfs on the SmX perceive the image to be sharper. You don't really get that effect with a solid or microperf screen because the perfs are too big and spaced to far apart

The perforation in the SmX is about 1/3rd the size of a microperf screen. In fact, for every 65 holes on lets say, a Stewart Microperf, the SMX has 182 perforations/sound holes that are about 1/3rd the size.

This is a huge benefit for CRT users that have that softer image and want to sharpen it up.

Here is an enlarged comparison of the differences of the Stewart Microperf perforation compared to the Smx perforation. Keep in mind that the Stewart Microperf is .02" in size which is extremely small.

http://www.smxscreen.com/images/perforation.gif


Ruben

Cliff

I am finaly recovered enough from the weekend to make a post

Thanks for putting this on. I was amazed at the amount of work you were able to get done in such a short time.... The image was one of the best I have ever seen ( I am a regular at arts) I was amazed at how much of a 3d image that was being produced and was really impressed with the screen. If I ever have a need for an acousticly transparent screen I know what I will be getting.

I just wished I had gotten an earlier start on the day after partying at Bells Beer all day friday. And I had to get going after just a short time due to another GTG up almost to wisconson(2hr drive).

Clarence.... Bells does have some good beers eh?

Kevin,

It was good to see you again! I feel the same way about being a regular at Art's. His image is the ONLY one I have ever seen that stands next to what we pulled off. :D

Cliff

Cliff, you pulled it off. Damn nice results! Now crawl into bed with that hottie wife and stay there for at least 3 days.

My friend, you are STELLAR. Thank you so much for all of your help and taking the time to come out and chill with your bud. :D

I'm really looking foward to doing it again one day soon...... Just like I said before, now it's my turn. ;)

Believe it or not, I STILL feel like crap. I'm hoping by tomorrow things improve a bit, but then the next nightmare happens......... :mad:

I went and picked up the patch and some nicotine gum a little while ago and I think about tomorrow mid day is when I'm going to take the plunge.

Talk to you soon Clarence.

Cliffy

P.S. POST SOME MORE SHOTS!!!!!!

Ruben,
I'm not up to speed on the SMX at least completely. Will you have some gain choices in the future ?

Art

Cliff,

Thanks, and back-atcha.

I think it started when I asked her if she really understood the magnitude of what we were attempting down there, and made the analogy that it was like being gifted the ability to test drive an old Ferrari with a few modern touches...

...and thanked her for letting us consume her house for the day publicly and for all she endured while you, Clarence, and the rest of the guys were assembling everything.


I also asked her to give you a little slack on her expectations on any other project that would need to be done in the future...and that what happened last week was more than superhuman.


Heh, y'all know how to throw a party...



Cheers!

Ruben,
I'm not up to speed on the SMX at least completely. Will you have some gain choices in the future ?

Art

Right now, SMX is a 1.2 gain (1.16 to be exact) and at this moment (as far as I know) SmX is the highest gain weaved AT material on the market. Everyday I am experimenting with new ideas so if something with higher gain comes about, I will let you know.

Hey by the way, aren't you holding the blendzilla people shots, where are they? Seems like we've been waiting forever to see them :D

Ruben

Would it make sense to get this material even if its not required for acoustic properties.I pondered the same thing all week. I won't put my speakers behind the screen because I don't want to move the screen a couple of feet closer to the seats... the seats are already close enough. If Ruben can send me a half screen sample, I'll do a side-by-side comparison with my current favorite screen (laminate).

P.S. POST SOME MORE SHOTS!!!!!!Well, here's the rest... I'd selected what I thought was the better half when I posted the original batch.

Everyone is probably tired of King Kong and The Incredibles, but that's all we managed to get at 4am after the meet.

So here are the "rejects"...

I included Cliff's foot in this picture (lower-left corner) because otherwise I can't recall him sitting down too much the whole week:
http://crtforum.com/img/cliff40.jpg

This is Cliff frantically trying to turn down the volume when his wife came down at 4am...
http://crtforum.com/img/cliff41.jpg

http://crtforum.com/img/cliff42.jpg

She's about to ask us if this outfit makes her butt look big :p
http://crtforum.com/img/cliff44.jpg
Actually, this whole scene with the monorail going through the jungle and into the tunnel was frickin' incredible on Cliff's setup. Maybe my favorite. Deeeep, pure blacks with no loss of detail in the shadows... amazing. Simply beautiful.

http://crtforum.com/img/cliff45.jpg

http://crtforum.com/img/cliff43.jpg

WOW! Great pics!

I'm speechless. Those shots are SO INDICATIVE of what Clarence and I drooled over for 3 days. :^)

The morning (4am) after the meet I was just like oh yeah, oohhhh, get that one big dog it's perfect....... :^)

You rock Clarence!!

Cliffy

WOW!, WOW! WOW!

did I say

WOW!!!

Cliff, those shots look fantastical!! :D Clarence and his little "cheapocam" take a great screenshot! I hope you are recovering from the sleep deprivation, CRT hangover and all the excitement! Great job pulling this off in such short time and bringing so much talent together in one place. Wish I could have been there. Hopefully Clarence will have a CRT meet sometime because I know where he lives ;)

Rex

Let me know when your done with the DF board Cliff till then have fun playing :-)

A lot of people are asking about the technique and settings I used to take these screenshots.

The camera is a Canon S80 (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0508/05082205canons80.asp) point and shoot. It's 8MP, but I had the 4MP Canon S45 before it and it works just as well.

Put it on a tripod behind the center seat, or anywhere roughly under the green lense if you're using one projector.

Set the ISO to the lowest setting that your camera has. I used ISO 50 for these screenshots. When you halve the ISO, you have to double the exposure time. So ISO 50 needs 8x the shutter time as the normal ISO 400 that most cameras use. But with ISO 50, you'll get less film grain or digital noise. ISO 400 or ISO 800 would be better for hand-held or with moving subjects or action shots, but since we're pausing the movie, movement is not a concern.

Turn the flash off.

I use the 2-sec timer delay so the camera doesn't shake and cause blur when I push the shutter button. I use the 10 sec delay if I want to run up to the screen and get in the picture.

I leave everything else on Auto.... Auto focus and AWB. If I'm doing direct comparisons on screen gain between various screen materials, then I would use a fixed white balance and use the exact same exposure settings.

For these pictures, with the lowest ISO=50 setting, shutter times varied from 0.6, 0.8, or even a full sec.

One improvement that I've learned recently is do NOT zoom in to try to fill the screen image in the viewfinder. I used to do this, but the lense on digicams give barrel distortion when you zoom, so the edges of my screen would look curved.

Then just crop the extra black space out of the picture and resize it... Cliff wanted 1024 wide for these. I usually use 640 or 800.

IMHO, photoshop should never be used to "tweak" the screenshots.

If they're under 640 pixels you can attach them to your posts, or if larger, upload to your webserver, or use http://imageshack.us

That's it.

I actually was wondering about the photo gear used.

A lot of people are asking about the technique and settings I used to take these screenshots.

The camera is a Canon S80 (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0508/05082205canons80.asp) point and shoot. It's 8MP, but I had the 4MP Canon S45 before it and it works just as well.

Put it on a tripod behind the center seat, or anywhere roughly under the green lense if you're using one projector.

Set the ISO to the lowest setting that your camera has. I used ISO 50 for these screenshots. When you halve the ISO, you have to double the exposure time. So ISO 50 needs 8x the shutter time as the normal ISO 400 that most cameras use. But with ISO 50, you'll get less film grain or digital noise. ISO 400 or ISO 800 would be better for hand-held or with moving subjects or action shots, but since we're pausing the movie, movement is not a concern.

Turn the flash off.

I use the 2-sec timer delay so the camera doesn't shake and cause blur when I push the shutter button. I use the 10 sec delay if I want to run up to the screen and get in the picture.

I leave everything else on Auto.... Auto focus and AWB. If I'm doing direct comparisons on screen gain between various screen materials, then I would use a fixed white balance and use the exact same exposure settings.

For these pictures, with the lowest ISO=50 setting, shutter times varied from 0.6, 0.8, or even a full sec.

One improvement that I've learned recently is do NOT zoom in to try to fill the screen image in the viewfinder. I used to do this, but the lense on digicams give barrel distortion when you zoom, so the edges of my screen would look curved.

Then just crop the extra black space out of the picture and resize it... Cliff wanted 1024 wide for these. I usually use 640 or 800.

IMHO, photoshop should never be used to "tweak" the screenshots.

If they're under 640 pixels you can attach them to your posts, or if larger, upload to your webserver, or use http://imageshack.us

That's it.

Sorry Clarence, I thought you were using that little $19 camera to take those like you did some of your great looking shots with. I guess that shows how good that little camera is or how I don't know what I'm talking about! Probably the later! :D

One improvement that I've learned recently is do NOT zoom in to try to fill the screen image in the viewfinder. I used to do this, but the lense on digicams give barrel distortion when you zoom, so the edges of my screen would look curved.Photoshop! :)

Sorry Clarence, I thought you were using that little $19 camera to take those like you did some of your great looking shots with. I guess that shows how good that little camera is or how I don't know what I'm talking about! Probably the later! :DI brought it with me and meant to take some pics with it, but never did. That $19 mini-cam only takes 640x480 though, so they'd be <1/2 the size of the ones above.

Not sure about question No.1 but here is a link to answer question No.2. I am definately getting 3 yards of that stuff when it comes time to set up my CRT unit. Looks great!

http://www.smxscreen.com/smx-ordering.htmlThanks dropzone. I looked at this web page and it says the SMX material normally comes 98" wide, but that is only about 8 foot. So I am wondering how the installers of this meet got 10 foot wide out this screen without turning it the wrong way? Did you do the 98" from top to bottom and then use 4 yards the other way? If I understand correctly that means you actually put it up backwards but still did not have a moire problem? Reason I ask is because my screen is 7' high x 11' wide and I would rather ask first before I order.

The other thing I am still concerned about is the vibration issue. Is it better to stretch the fabric and have it completely open to the speakers or should I leave my screen (which is just a painted wall) as it is and just cut out holes for where the speakers can go? Seems to me the screen would move less that way. Or am I worrying about something that doesn't really matter? Unlike Cliffs basement, I only have about 1-1/2 feet from my screen wall to the basement concrete wall, so not very much headroom for the speakers. My lack of headroom means the cones are going to be even closer to the material.

I apologize for being OT but wanted to ask the members who did this meet exactly how you installed the screen while it is still fresh on everyones mind. I figure my 7 x 11 dimension is probably pretty close to what you just did and I am really excited about the opportunity to get audio behind the screen and sharpness increased too.

the SMX material normally comes 98" wide, but that is only about 8 foot. So I am wondering how the installers of this meet got 10 foot wide out this screen without turning it the wrong way?
There is no "wrong" way... the weave is non-directional. Look at my close-up picture:
http://crtforum.com/img/cliff08.jpg

The weave will look exactly the same, even if you turn it 90, 180, or 270 degrees. Or mount it at a slight angle to avoid moire on horizontal or vertical lines.

So 8' wide became 8' high for Cliff's screen when rotated 90 degrees.

I am really excited about the opportunity to get audio behind the screen and sharpness increased too.I still think some comparisons need to be done between solid screens vs perforated woven screens before we can consider the perceived sharpness effect as a benefit to get excited about.

Sure, it seems to be a very nice material. Especially if you want to put your speakers behind it. But with a limited amount of gain. Plus a visible weave that I could see (barely) on a solid white field from 1x seating distance... something that I've critiqued d!%!#@| projectors for years. So I'm not sure a similar effect (artifical sharpness with SDE) becomes a benefit when it occurs with CRT.

Sure, it seems to be a very nice material. Especially if you want to put your speakers behind it. But with a limited amount of gain. Plus a visible weave that I could see (barely) on a solid white field from 1x seating distance... something that I've critiqued d!%!#@| projectors for years. So I'm not sure a similar effect (artifical sharpness with SDE) becomes a benefit when it occurs with CRT.That kind of scares me now because I normally sit even a little closer than 1x. Is the weave you mention the holes you see in the screenshot or is this some other kind of effect of the material?

When I sit in a commericial theater I often times can see the holes in their screen which doesn't bother me at all. But screendoor effect would sure bother the hell out of me. I don't have any now and I sure as hell don't want any either.

Say Clarence

How tall was the green S? The holes look sharp but edges of the S are comparable on either side, eh?

How tall was the green S? The holes look sharp but edges of the S are comparable on either side, eh?That "S" is from a standard G90 menu (at 1024p60 before EM focus).

For comparison, here's a picture from my G90's menu (originally intended to show how I can't display 1080p from the X360 without getting wrap-around on the raster when shifting)... the characters should be relatively the same size.

http://crtforum.com/img/shift-anim.gif

Looks like the characters are about half of the height of a crosshatch pattern...
There are 12 vertical grids.

So for Cliff's 135"x76" screen... 76"/24, that "S" was about 3" tall.

The "S" in the extreme macro screenshot is green because the Red and Blue were muted on Cliff's projector when we took that picture.

I have a small sample of the SmX material here. I'd estimate that there are about 30 of those weave holes every linear inch... so about 900 "holes" per square inch.

I also asked Ken about the weave when he was converging. He admitted it was tougher to see. I think he was doing a lot of adjust too high, then adjust too low, then split the difference. He said he'd tape solid white paper to each of the zones next time.

Point taken when Ken comes up to do my setup I'll have my no weave screen in :) then when he has finished I'll take the screen out an put the frame back up, so he can tweak the gray scale etc on the SMX.

If that would make it easier for him.

There is no "wrong" way... the weave is non-directional. Look at my close-up picture:

The weave will look exactly the same, even if you turn it 90, 180, or 270 degrees. Or mount it at a slight angle to avoid moire on horizontal or vertical lines.

The SmX is directional. This was discovered by Mark P, he hung the material using the 98" as the width and had Moiré with his Digital Projections Mercury Projector. Once he rotated the SmX 90 degrees (so the 98" was the height of the screen) the moiré was gone. Then another 1080 digital projector user had a moiré issue when he used 98" as the width of his screen. Once he got word about the directional of the material, he rotated it and the moiré was gone.

So yes, the SmX is directional. None of this matters with a CRT user because CRT does not have fixed pixels.

Also, rotating the SmX material 10-15-20% eliminates moire for anyone who may possibly have a moiré issue when using it in the proper direction. This has been experimented with many times.

Clarence, PM me your address and I can get you out a half screen sample to test with.

Ruben

So yes, the SmX is directional. None of this matters with a CRT user because CRT does not have fixed pixels.


RubenRuben, that was very confusing to me because I thought your measurement of width meant horizontal not vertical. I just attempted to email you using the address on your site but for some reason it came back to me undeliverable. Could you email me at RVonse@aol.com or PM me here?

So yes, the SmX is directional.Interesting. Looking at the weave, I don't see how.

I wonder if Mark P only got a reduced Moiré effect due to some coincidental non-parallel angular shift (i.e., an accidental slight tilt) when he remounted? I haven't read up on this stuff at all.

If I cut a perfect square out of this stuff, what test could be used to determine H vs V orientation? (Aside from, "if you notice Moiré, turn it 90 degrees").

Has anyone suggested that there's a "front" side and a "back" side?

I look forward to comparing a larger sample.

Here's SmX scanned at 1200dpi, reduced 25% (to 300dpi)...

http://crtforum.com/img/smx-300dpi.jpg

Note how each strand of the horizontal weave seems to have an indentation or mark down the middle that isn't as prominent in the vertical strands?

Next step... rotate this sample 90 degrees and see if that indentation persists with the physical orientation of the material, or is it dependent on the incident light from the scan?

Nope... when rotated 90 degrees, the perceived prominence is still horizontal:

http://crtforum.com/img/smx-300dpi-90.jpg

So, of course, the next logical test would be 45 degrees...

And yes, as your hypothesis probably predicted, the horizontal and vertical weaves approach equal prominence:

http://crtforum.com/img/smx-300dpi-45.jpg

Now try 15 - 20 degrees

Are we discovering a limitation in the imager for the CAMERA here?!

Very curious NOW, I'll need to see how this material responds to polarized light from the LCD-class of projectors.

DLP doesn't mess with polarization...neither do CRTs.

Just another curiosity on the shallow, slow part of learning curve.

Heh.


Cheers!

I take that back, the reflectance of DLPs 'might' mess with polarization...dunno for certain.

Gimme two shots of the same material, but re-orient the CAMERA...not the material.

Let's check to see if the imager doesn't slop/chop the verticals.

Gimme two shots of the same material, but re-orient the CAMERA...not the material.

Let's check to see if the imager doesn't slop/chop the verticals.

First off so you know, what we are discussing here is moiré with digital projectors. This doesn't apply to CRT projector users or LCOS/SXRD.

With todays perforated screens and fixed pixel DLP and LCD digital projectors, moiré is a big concern. Moiré is caused when the pixel grid or screen door of the digital projector lines up with the perforation pattern of the screen. When the pixel grid and screen perf pattern allign and slightly misalign, it creates a moiré effect to the projected image on bright scenes (mostly bright sky, bright water, and snow scenes). Here is a sample of really bad Moiré (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:TVscreen.jpg) Notice the vertical curvy waves in the image.

The smaller and more random the screen perf pattern, the less likely to moiré. Usually moiré is an issue with 1080 projectors and projected screen sizes under 84" due to the extremely small pixel size being more subjective to line up with the perf pattern. That is why slight rotation of the SmX material is recommended on smaller screens and higher res PJs because it makes the directional perf pattern non directional or less likely to line up with the PJ's screen door.

Stewart also rotates their micro perf and perf material to help fight moiré.

I learned about moiré the expensive way by buying a perforated screen without realizing some screen companies don't care about moiré. I ended up returning the screen and got charged a huge restocking fee and shipping charges both ways. That's when I started my quest to put together the SmX.

Ruben

Necessity being the Mother she is...


I theorized this with early fixed-pixels, might've warned people about it way back in the Sim2 200 Dual Mode review with Stereophile Guide to Home Theater.

Funny thing? Back then, EVERY manufacturer and even TI (off the record, or course) told me it would be LESS of a problem as the resolution increased in the projectors!

Heh, never believed 'em...now I've proof. Thanks, Ruben!


Over the years, TI has zero credibility with me regarding every single issue I've ever had with their flickering panels...but going against them is like calling out the NSA.


You probably won't hear from me again...

Necessity being the Mother she is...


I theorized this with early fixed-pixels, might've warned people about it way back in the Sim2 200 Dual Mode review with Stereophile Guide to Home Theater.

Funny thing? Back then, EVERY manufacturer and even TI (off the record, or course) told me it would be LESS of a problem as the resolution increased in the projectors!

Heh, never believed 'em...now I've proof. Thanks, Ruben!


Over the years, TI has zero credibility with me regarding every single issue I've ever had with their flickering panels...but going against them is like calling out the NSA.


You probably won't hear from me again...

The enlarged SMX shots Clarance posted above are much bigger than the actual smx weave size.

Here is a shot that is about the actual size of the SmX weave.
The left side is the SmX and the right side is a Stewart Micro Perf. I had to put black material behind the SMX in order to scan it properly so please disregard the dark holes.

This gives you an idea how small the weaves and perfs are.

http://www.smxscreen.com/images/smx-microperf-vs.jpg


Ruben

I've scanned and posted NOTHING of the sort...yer honor, I'm being dragged into this unwillingly AND unknowingly...

...ooh, I get it. False accusation, the first line of defense whenever anyone publicly attacks anything within the military/industrial complex...sure.

I thought this was Cliff's Blendzilla thread anyway. If it's going to turn into a SMX/Stewart/perf/microperf screen debate then should'nt someone probably start a new thread for that? Granted, it's not totally off topic since this was the material used at the meet but I would just hate to see Cliff's thread turn into anything other than the fun-loving thing it is.

I've scanned and posted NOTHING of the sort...yer honor, I'm being dragged into this unwillingly AND unknowingly...

LOL John, I think he was talking about Clarence.

Just so you guys know, we saw no moire affect at all what so ever when Ryan from The Little Guys did his Pearl demo on Ruben's Screen. We were actually pleasantly suprised at the light output and lack of SDE.

Like I've said SEVERAL times in this thread, for Accoustically Transparent screens, this is BY FAR THE BEST screen material I have EVER seen.

Ruben, I have to apologize, but between my fried brain, and body, and total chaos in my head during the meet, I forgot to give out screen samples to everyone. I'm terribly sorry.

Cliff

One more thing I would like to add in regards to the SMX screen's durability.......

2 days before the meet, I finally got my audio hooked up and placed my KLF30's on top of each SVS PB/12, and forgot to place a buffer in between them. Needless to say, I popped in the Dark Side of the Moon Quad on DVD/A and because of lack of great sound for the last 3 months, I ended up playing it too loud and guess what happened....... :mad:

One of the KLF30's rattled off of my sub and smacked to the floor taking the center channel with it. It hit the screen and put a 2ft gash straight down the midde. :mad:

Guess what? You can't even see it on the projected side of the image at all what so ever anywhere........ :D :eek: ;)

That is a testament to how AWESOME this material is.

Cliffy

I thought this was Cliff's Blendzilla thread anyway. If it's going to turn into a SMX/Stewart/perf/microperf screen debate then should'nt someone probably start a new thread for that? Granted, it's not totally off topic since this was the material used at the meet but I would just hate to see Cliff's thread turn into anything other than the fun-loving thing it is.I thought about that too when I started replying to questions about the SmX, but now that the meet is over and the Blendzilla demo unit is getting sent back to Tim, all we're left to talk about is the setup and components.

Cliff could probably start a new thread for the next phase of his HT, now that the blendzilla demo is over.

The projectors and screen will be the same. But instead of a blend, he'll be doing a stack. The SmX screen size will probably go down from 11'3" to 10' wide.

I've suggested moving the screen wall back a bit more... if he turns his subs sideways and moves the door to behind the center channel, then he could have at least 2 more feet, maybe up to 6 more feet (if he builds the wall as close to the furnace as allowed). This will allow the 2nd row to be on a riser and not against the rear wall.

Cliff needs to do everything in his power to contain sound in that room. He likes volume and he likes his music... but his wife and kids are usually in bed before he can sit down and crank the system.

After midnight, turn off the subs and switch to Bass Shakers under the riser.

He's already planning a 2nd layer of drywall. And staggered studs, plus a separate double wall where the HT shares a wall with the rest of the basement.

Look into CertaSound insulation in all walls and joists, Green Glue (GG), Integrity Gaskets (IG), USG Acoustical Caulk between all floor/wall/ceiling seams, airtight recessed cans, putty sealed receptacle boxes, flexible duct instead of those metal ducts, plus Linacoustic duct liner... both within the duct and as sound treatment inside the room.

And those ceiling mounts need to be rock solid. The 2x4's flexed whenever your kids ran across the floor upstairs. Ken was trying to align and converge and the grid lines were jumping over 1/4". :eek:

I thought about that too when I started replying to questions about the SmX, but now that the meet is over and the Blendzilla demo unit is getting sent back to Tim, all we're left to talk about is the setup and components.

Cliff could probably start a new thread for the next phase of his HT, now that the blendzilla demo is over.

The projectors and screen will be the same. But instead of a blend, he'll be doing a stack. The SmX screen size will probably go down from 11'3" to 10' wide.

I've suggested moving the screen wall back a bit more... if he turns his subs sideways and moves the door to behind the center channel, then he could have at least 2 more feet, maybe up to 6 more feet (if he builds the wall as close to the furnace as allowed). This will allow the 2nd row to be on a riser and not against the rear wall.

Cliff needs to do everything in his power to contain sound in that room. He likes volume and he likes his music... but his wife and kids are usually in bed before he can sit down and crank the system.

After midnight, turn off the subs and switch to Bass Shakers under the riser.

He's already planning a 2nd layer of drywall. Look into CertaSound, Green Glue, USG Acoustical Caulk, flexible duct instead of those metal ducts, plus Linacoustic duct liner... both within the duct and as sound treatment inside the room.

And those ceiling mounts need to be rock solid. The 2x4's flexed whenever your kids ran across the floor upstairs. Ken was trying to converge and the grid lines were jumping over 1/4". :eek:

Funny you should mention the sounds issues Clarence, I was just rereading your HT construction thread yesterday and looking at those green gaskets on the studs. Has that worked out well for you? I like Cliff, like my music and volume so when I get an opportunity I want to make my HT as sound containing as possible. Regarding the SMX, I hope I didn't speak out of turn but I could just sense a disturbance in the force if you know what I mean. :D

Oh yeah, how much did Cliff cry when the blending unit got pulled out? Poor guy.

I thought about that too when I started replying to questions about the SmX, but now that the meet is over and the Blendzilla demo unit is getting sent back to Tim, all we're left to talk about is the setup and components.

Cliff could probably start a new thread for the next phase of his HT, now that the blendzilla demo is over.

The projectors and screen will be the same. But instead of a blend, he'll be doing a stack. The SmX screen size will probably go down from 11'3" to 10' wide.

I've suggested moving the screen wall back a bit more... if he turns his subs sideways and moves the door to behind the center channel, then he could have at least 2 more feet, maybe up to 6 more feet (if he builds the wall as close to the furnace as allowed). This will allow the 2nd row to be on a riser and not against the rear wall.

Cliff needs to do everything in his power to contain sound in that room. He likes volume and he likes his music... but his wife and kids are usually in bed before he can sit down and crank the system.

After midnight, turn off the subs and switch to Bass Shakers under the riser.

He's already planning a 2nd layer of drywall. And staggered studs, plus a separate double wall where the HT shares a wall with the rest of the basement.

Look into CertaSound insulation in all walls and joists, Green Glue (GG), Integrity Gaskets (IG), USG Acoustical Caulk between all floor/wall/ceiling seams, airtight recessed cans, putty sealed receptacle boxes, flexible duct instead of those metal ducts, plus Linacoustic duct liner... both within the duct and as sound treatment inside the room.

And those ceiling mounts need to be rock solid. The 2x4's flexed whenever your kids ran across the floor upstairs. Ken was trying to align and converge and the grid lines were jumping over 1/4". :eek:

What a STARCH reminder Clarence of all of the work that still needs to be done in my basement........... :mad:

I'm sure as you could tell while you were here the withdrawl I have been through the last 3-4 months only for me to go through it again. :mad:

Arli and I will of course be in touch when the time comes to get going again. For now though, it's time for family and holiday. :)

Cliffy

Oh yeah, how much did Cliff cry when the blending unit got pulled out? Poor guy.

I actually still have the unit here and should have it until next week. Tim and I are going to work on a few issues that I had during setup to see if they can be resolved.

Unfortunately, just as I was getting a bit of rest after the meet, I got inflicted with the stomach flu. :mad:

I'm getting better now though and will have some energy to jump back in for a bit before I send it back. Plus, I dont want to run it too long in sake of my minty tubes!

Cliff

I was just rereading your HT construction thread yesterday and looking at those green gaskets on the studs. Has that worked out well for you?I liked the Integrity Gaskets (http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?postid=4975080#post4975080) and I'd use them again. It was easy to install and a single case covered the whole room for $112...

http://crtforum.com/img/integrity-gaskets.jpg (http://crtforum.com/viewtopic.php?p=113#113)

Cliff already has a single layer of sheetrock on the walls, but he could still use the gaskets on the ceiling if he wanted to.

A fun test was to screw 2 sheets of drywall to the studs... with and without the gaskets. Bang on the drywall with the ball of your fist and compare the "BOOM!" vs "thud".

I've scanned and posted NOTHING of the sort...yer honor, I'm being dragged into this unwillingly AND unknowingly...

Oh it was my mistake, sorry Ganon. I was half asleep last night and I meant to say Clarance, as he was the one that scanned the SmX and enlarged it with a ruler next to it. I was just pointing out to everyone that the SmX weave is not as big and beefy as what Clarance posted so thus why I posted the more life sized comparison picture.

Sorry about all the confusion, I will go back and edit that post to change the name.
I promise to post when I am more awake from now on :)

Ruben

There were HANDOUTS and door prizes?!


But h e l l yeah, we had fun.

DON'T edit it, you lose the setup for the joke!

There were HANDOUTS and door prizes?!


But h e l l yeah, we had fun.

Yes. I had 2 posters from Tim and also SMX samples but I'm sure you understand considering the circumstances. :(

Everything got pimped though, so I think THAT is what is important! :^)

Cliff

Cliff or Clarence, I'm curious if anything was displayed from the Xbox360 during the meet. I recall reading about some issues with a PS3 and I'm also aware of the 360's problem with 1080p shifting the picture, not to mention that you guys were running everything at 1024p anyway so I was not sure if you had a chance to try the 360's HD-DVD drive or not?

Cliff or Clarence, I'm curious if anything was displayed from the Xbox360 during the meet. I recall reading about some issues with a PS3 and I'm also aware of the 360's problem with 1080p shifting the picture, not to mention that you guys were running everything at 1024p anyway so I was not sure if you had a chance to try the 360's HD-DVD drive or not?


The DVX does have H Phase or picture centering but I have not tested the range of adjustment, it is some number of microseconds of left/right correction.

IIRC, we tried my X360 HDDVD, but got some weird diagonal noise in the picture, thin lines rolling slowly. We swapped to Cliff's VGA cable and it was still there. Aside from the diagonal noise, I don't recall if 1080p from the XBox displayed the entire picture, or if it had the same problem as I get here at home.

So for HDDVD, we just fed 1080i via component from the Toshiba HD-A1.

The PS3 at 1080P at Cliff's had the same problem... we could not get the entire image to display... the right 10%-20% of the image was cropped.

I don't think we were ever successful in feeding 1080p to the DVX. Only 1080i which it then scaled to 1024P@60. We were also unable to sucessfully get 1200P or 72Hz output from the DVX.

IIRC, we tried my X360 HDDVD, but got some weird diagonal noise in the picture, thin lines rolling slowly. We swapped to Cliff's VGA cable and it was still there. Aside from the diagonal noise, I don't recall if 1080p from the XBox displayed the entire picture, or if it had the same problem as I get here at home.

So for HDDVD, we just fed 1080i via component from the Toshiba HD-A1.

The PS3 at 1080P at Cliff's had the same problem... we could not get the entire image to display... the right 10%-20% of the image was cropped.

I don't think we were ever successful in feeding 1080p to the DVX. Only 1080i which it then scaled to 1024P@60. We were also unable to sucessfully get 1200P or 72Hz output from the DVX.

Well, that's too bad, I would have been curious to see or hear of how the 360's HD drive looked on that super duper blended setup. I plan on using this drive for HD-DVD's fed to my NEC 9PG+ when I get it set up. Of course, I wont be doing anything near 1080p but again, this thread is the "dream realized" as far as CRT goes.

The PS3 at 1080P at Cliff's had the same problem... we could not get the entire image to display... the right 10%-20% of the image was cropped.




It would not be unusual to require Short Retrace setting in the G90s for signals over 60khz to avoid wrapping the image; I hope Cliffy has the energy to try that this week.

I will try 1200P tonite on my system and see what that does. :-)

require Short Retrace setting in the G90s for signals over 60khz to avoid wrapping the imageI know Short Retrace may be available on your Marquees, but I'm not familiar with that option on the G90.

Is it a setting that the DVX provides?

Clarence

They hid it in a service menu for some reaason on the G90; I do not know if every PJ has the feature or if every firmware level gives access.

Guys, I'm going to get the chance to revisit the issues we had tomorrow when Bomrat comes over and we can get the firmware updated on one of the G90's.

Thanks for bringing up and reminding me about the Xbox thing Clarence. I'm going to revisit this also........

Cliff

They hid it in a service menu for some reaason on the G90; I do not know if every PJ has the feature or if every firmware level gives access.I thought I tried every setting in in the Service Menu and Expert Mode, but I didn't see Short Retrace. I'll look again.

I have v1.11, which I think it the latest and greatest.

Cliff has 1.11 on one and 1.02 on the other... he couldn't get pjupdate.exe to connect with the serial cable on his 2nd G90.

Yes for Cliff the construction adventure begins. I would strongly suggest two layers of Drywall, minium :) and since the first layer is already up use green glue it does wonders. On the ceiling RSIC and Hat, two layers of 3/4 or 5/8 drywall with the green glue, isolate the Soffits and Lights with the RSIC Hangers. Enclose the Light Cans in MDF boxes lined with cement board this contains the sound leaks. I really don't hear too much bass out of the theater but as I scale to larger speakers well..., hell Arts Theater even bleeds out side his house, muhahaha.. With those Seton Subs I can only imagine...

Cliff has a hell of a resource when it comes to construction and friendship, Bomrat know his stuff. I'm sure he will be right by Cliffs side the whole way.

Oh use lots of R30 and R38 it sure helped me :)

hell Arts Theater even bleeds out side his house, muhahaha..



Yes, and even more so now with the Submersives. :o

Art

Considering the circumstances, Cliffy, we're pretty amazed you survived!

They sure do make 'em tough in the Windy City.

So...are you going to get giggy with this over the weekend? It would not be hard for me to drive a bit south and west after that Saturday thing and hang out for a while.

You up for it, I'll pack my bedroll. Actually, I never took it out of the car.

I wouldn't mind spending some more time with the 'zilla before it goes back.

We're trying to get one setup for a spell in my studio, but I'm not sure I want to wait until March for my next fix.

Oh yeah...there IS January on the way to CES at Tim's...

Considering the circumstances, Cliffy, we're pretty amazed you survived!

They sure do make 'em tough in the Windy City.

So...are you going to get giggy with this over the weekend? It would not be hard for me to drive a bit south and west after that Saturday thing and hang out for a while.

You up for it, I'll pack my bedroll. Actually, I never took it out of the car.

I wouldn't mind spending some more time with the 'zilla before it goes back.

We're trying to get one setup for a spell in my studio, but I'm not sure I want to wait until March for my next fix.

Oh yeah...there IS January on the way to CES at Tim's...

Not a problem John, but I might not be heading home until Sunday morning.

Cliffy

The projectors and screen will be the same. But instead of a blend, he'll be doing a stack. The SmX screen size will probably go down from 11'3" to 10' wide.
:Why? Did he run out of throw or is there some other reason he has to go smaller? Is overall brightness expected to go down a bit for the stack?

Plus, I dont want to run it too long in sake of my minty tubes!

CliffIf I was lucky enough to have a blended crt system, I think I would engineer a quick mounting provision for the projectors so that you could rotote them just like your tires every so many miles. :D

If I was lucky enough to have a blended crt system, I think I would engineer a quick mounting provision for the projectors so that you could rotote them just like your tires every so many miles. :D

Say Bob

I do not see any reason to have to do that really..........

Clarence

They hid it in a service menu for some reaason on the G90; I do not know if every PJ has the feature or if every firmware level gives access.Tim,

Can you provide any other clues about where you found this hidden menu for short retrace on a G90?

Or any G90 firmware version that provides a retrace setting?

I'm willing to back up to a previous firmware in order to test 1080p from the X360 if the short retrace setting that you've specified will display the complete image.

Guys!

Courtesy of Robert Busch.......

G90 Retrace


Hit Enter Enter Up Down Enter and toggle down to Short/Wide and select Short and select for sync "HP" or "HC"?

The DVX has H Size adjust good for five percent range of image width.

Courtesy of Robert Busch.......

G90 Retrace

Hit Enter Enter Up Down Enter and toggle down to Short/Wide and select Short and select for sync "HP" or "HC"?I tried every permutation of those a month ago when MS added 1080P to the X360, to no avail:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8899803&&#post8899803
I've tried (in the expert service mode)...
CLAMP: Auto, S on G, H/C, HP, Tri
V SHIFT: Wide, Narrow (this helps with top/bottom of the grid, but not the left/right cut-off)
SYNC ROUTE: Auto, Normal, Sync w V
VIDEO LOCK: Normal, Wide (no diff AFAICT)
I re-tried them tonight, just in case anything had changed, but I still can't get the full left side of the 1080P image without the right side wrapping under.

I re-tried them tonight, just in case anything had changed, but I still can't get the full left side of the 1080P image without the right side wrapping under.

Big dog, does your scaler have underscan?

Cliffy

When I'm trying 1080P from the X360, I'm intentionally bypassing my Lumagen and send VGA->RGBHV directly to the projector.

When I'm trying 1080P from the X360, I'm intentionally bypassing my Lumagen and send VGA->RGBHV directly to the projector.

I was just curious to see if I could accomplish the same with the VP30. I'll try later. Hell, I havent even turned on the G90's since Sunday and that was only for about 20 minutes.

Cliffy

How can you not be watching that blended setup every chance you get before you dismantle it?!

I'm pretty much gonna give up on the X360's VGA 1080p.

1080i component into the Lumagen works just fine, but I just wanted to compare how the X360's direct 1080P would compare to the Lumagen's deinterlacing.

How can you not be watching that blended setup every chance you get before you dismantle it?!

I just now FINALLY TONIGHT about 30 minutes ago fired everything back up and am taking notes for the rest of the week. It took that long big dog for me to get my strength back. :eek:

Anywho, back to the make shift theater. I picked up Miami Vice and Field of Dreams on HD DVD after I returned that PIECE OF CRAP $70 Monster Component Cable for the PS3 to Circuit City tonight....... ;)

Cliffy

Cliff,
did you ever try this pic?
preview:
http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/9232/avsforumtestpic02tf8.png
link to full resolution version (lossless compression):
http://rapidshare.com/files/137785542/AVSFORUMtestpic01.png

Kai

So, did any of you notice any ANSI contrast artifacts?

I'm curious because I see the ANSI contrast issue as the best critique of CRT front projection, in theory. But in practice, with LC machines like the G90, is it an issue?

If you can't see the washout between two projectors splitting an image, I don't see why ANSI contrast is an problem/benefit. I know understanding doesn't equate to experience, so I'm curious as to whether those who understand and have experienced this torture-test of ANSI contrast see this as an issue.

Cliff - I was setting up 1200P on my setup, and ran into a problem where the image was too wide, it would cut off maybe 10% of the picture. Even with adjusting size, and phase. And the DVX doesn't given an option to adjust timings to better fit the raster.

BUT - The solution! :D

1. Output Tab > Output format 1600x1200, Type of Screen 4:3
2. Image Main Tab > Press 'Centering' button, then it adjusts the Clk & Phase automatically
3. Set aspect ratio to '4/3 Standard' in the drop down list
4. Slide the H.size from 128 to anything smaller. 48 worked for me.

Let me know if this works for your G90's

So, did any of you notice any ANSI contrast artifacts?

I'm curious because I see the ANSI contrast issue as the best critique of CRT front projection, in theory. But in practice, with LC machines like the G90, is it an issue?

If you can't see the washout between two projectors splitting an image, I don't see why ANSI contrast is an problem/benefit. I know understanding doesn't equate to experience, so I'm curious as to whether those who understand and have experienced this torture-test of ANSI contrast see this as an issue.



Well, of course ANSI contrast is an issue compared to the highest ANSI fixed pixel devices. This is irrelevant to the blending since blending has no effect on it.

The wash out you speak of is least in great LC devices and IMO doesn't touch the image flattening that happens in devices that have less sequential than great CRT as an image quality parameter.

I've discussed this briefly with a few forum members but high sequential lower ANSI mimics what your eye does in real life so much more than the reverse. Look up at bright street light at night ,look up at a star field away from light polution. Extreme examples to be sure but think about it.

Cliff - I was setting up 1200P on my setup, and ran into a problem where the image was too wide, it would cut off maybe 10% of the picture. Even with adjusting size, and phase. And the DVX doesn't given an option to adjust timings to better fit the raster.

BUT - The solution! :D

1. Output Tab > Output format 1600x1200, Type of Screen 4:3
2. Image Main Tab > Press 'Centering' button, then it adjusts the Clk & Phase automatically
3. Set aspect ratio to '4/3 Standard' in the drop down list
4. Slide the H.size from 128 to anything smaller. 48 worked for me.

Let me know if this works for your G90's

Will give it a shot Gino. Arli is on his way now to help me get the firmware on one of the G90's flashed.

Cliff

Hi Art,

I suppose I should have been more specific; I'm not really concerned with sequential vs. ANSI contrast but simply whether the "washout" effect was perceptible between the two blended projectors, and using this as a point for assessing the overall impact of ANSI contrast on the perception of the projected image.

I'm going to have to disagree with you about ANSI being irrelevant to blending. I don't know where to jump in on this, so I'll just give an example. In the opening scene of most recent Star Wars movie, there is a scene where two small planes fly around a larger one. As the "camera" articulates around the ships, a proximate star comes into view around the tail of the larger ship. On one side of the image, then, there is the star, and on the other the shaded body of the larger ship. In my joke of a (air coupled) blend-setup, the star (displayed by the left projector) is bright enough cause washout in the image, and detracts perceptibly from the shadow detail in the shaded part of the larger ship (again, displayed on the left projector). The image presented by the right projector is composed entirely of a low IRE rendition of the shaded body of the ship, and presents an image unaffected by the ANSI contrast of the machine. This situation creates a perceptible discontinuity between the two projected fields.

The above example is the only time that I've noticed ANSI contrast artifacts in my blended set-up, above and beyond what a single CRT projector would inherently have. The thing is, in the case of a single projector (or a stack) ANSI contrast-induced "washout" is less of an issue because of the eye's limited ability to perceive simultaneous contrast. I've read figures of about 100:1 being the limit of our visual system's ability to discern, at any given point and over the perceived field. I can dig up a reference if you're interested. Point being, in single projector/stack the deficits in CRT are very likely minimally perceptible, but in a blend the variable washout effect between the two projectors can change the visual frame of reference and become an issue.

The question, in my mind, is whether the LC optical path mitigates the inherent problems of washout to the degree that it ceases to be perceptible in a blended system. I took a look at the tunnel scene in "The Incredibles" last night, and it provides a great metric to approach the question with. If the apparent washout didn't affect the enjoyment of that scene, then I would think that ANSI-contrast is not an issue in liquid coupled blending optical paths. But I didn't think it would hurt to ask.

Psycho-visual perception is one of my favorite subjects, and the reason why I got into projection technologies in the first place. If you're interested, I can send you a selection of articles relevant to this hobby of ours. What reading I've done leads me to agree with your conclusions about ANSI and sequential contrast, and that's one of the reasons why I've stayed with CRT front projection beyond all convenience and practicality.

Hi Art,

I suppose I should have been more specific; I'm not really concerned with sequential vs. ANSI contrast but simply whether the "washout" effect was perceptible between the two blended projectors, and using this as a point for assessing the overall impact of ANSI contrast on the perception of the projected image.

I'm going to have to disagree with you about ANSI being irrelevant to blending. I don't know where to jump in on this, so I'll just give an example. In the opening scene of most recent Star Wars movie, there is a scene where two small planes fly around a larger one. As the "camera" articulates around the ships, a proximate star comes into view around the tail of the larger ship. On one side of the image, then, there is the star, and on the other the shaded body of the larger ship. In my joke of a (air coupled) blend-setup, the star (displayed by the left projector) is bright enough cause washout in the image, and detracts perceptibly from the shadow detail in the shaded part of the larger ship (again, displayed on the left projector). The image presented by the right projector is composed entirely of a low IRE rendition of the shaded body of the ship, and presents an image unaffected by the ANSI contrast of the machine. This situation creates a perceptible discontinuity between the two projected fields.

The above example is the only time that I've noticed ANSI contrast artifacts in my blended set-up, above and beyond what a single CRT projector would inherently have. The thing is, in the case of a single projector (or a stack) ANSI contrast-induced "washout" is less of an issue because of the eye's limited ability to perceive simultaneous contrast. I've read figures of about 100:1 being the limit of our visual system's ability to discern, at any given point and over the perceived field. I can dig up a reference if you're interested. Point being, in single projector/stack the deficits in CRT are very likely minimally perceptible, but in a blend the variable washout effect between the two projectors can change the visual frame of reference and become an issue.

The question, in my mind, is whether the LC optical path mitigates the inherent problems of washout to the degree that it ceases to be perceptible in a blended system. I took a look at the tunnel scene in "The Incredibles" last night, and it provides a great metric to approach the question with. If the apparent washout didn't affect the enjoyment of that scene, then I would think that ANSI-contrast is not an issue in liquid coupled blending optical paths. But I didn't think it would hurt to ask.

Psycho-visual perception is one of my favorite subjects, and the reason why I got into projection technologies in the first place. If you're interested, I can send you a selection of articles relevant to this hobby of ours. What reading I've done leads me to agree with your conclusions about ANSI and sequential contrast, and that's one of the reasons why I've stayed with CRT front projection beyond all convenience and practicality.

That is why LC optics are costlier and sought after, the bounce back to the tube face is effectively squelched. Right John? :-)

I've read figures of about 100:1 being the limit of our visual system's ability to discern, at any given point and over the perceived field. I can dig up a reference if you're interested.Just wanted to point out that although this number has gotten passed around, it is a completely bogus claim. I don't know if came from a 1/100 difference threshold in the CSF test, a limit of 100 levels, or from something else. But, in less than 5 minutes I can show how incorrect this is in a good room. As I mentioned, I'm not exactly sure where this got started, but tried to cover some of it with some tests you can run in my article on CR here:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_2/feature-article-contrast-ratio-5-2006-part-4.html

--Darin

Psycho-visual perception is one of my favorite subjects, and the reason why I got into projection technologies in the first place. If you're interested, I can send you a selection of articles relevant to this hobby of ours. What reading I've done leads me to agree with your conclusions about ANSI and sequential contrast, and that's one of the reasons why I've stayed with CRT front projection beyond all convenience and practicality.

Hi Slarti,

I'd be interested in those articles, please send them over. :)

Guys,

Firmware for the one G90 flashing now.......

Hope I don't lose my settings....... :^)

Cliffy

Still attempting to see why a blended unit would be any different than single LC CRT. Where does blending effect ANSI contrast...except maybe and I say maybe right inside the blend zone. I still think it's an unimportant point.

The big deals here are light output, resolution and blend zone visibility.

Art

Firmware succesfully flashed. Settings retained.

SWEET!!!!

Cliffy

Hi Art,

I think we're approaching the issue from different angles. I agree that blending doesn't affect ANSI contrast; but washout due to ANSI contrast limitations could have a detrimental effect on the blended display.

Assume you had a blended pair, with the left projector displaying a 100IRE box in the middle 50% of its raster, surrounded by a 0IRE field. The right projector is displaying a full 0IRE field. In air-coupled projectors, and to an attenuated extent in LC projectors, the washout effect as addressed by ANSI contrast figures would cause the 0IRE portion of the left projected image to be displayed with greater luminance on screen than the projector on the right. What I was curious about is whether this theoretical effect has any practical repercussions, and I'm glad to hear that it doesn't.

I agree completely that the advantages of blending, done right, far outweigh this minor concern. It seems that the crew that got together at Cliff's house represent a good part of the tallest peaks of CRT front projection, and discerning eyes certainly weren't lacking at Cliff's house. The ANSI contrast/washout issue was my last hesitation in committing to the blending approach, and I can't fairly assess the magnitude of the issue with the air-coupled projectors I am currently using. So I'm personally glad to hear that there were no problems with washout.

But, there's another point suggested by the fact that washout wasn't an issue with the blend. If there weren't any washout issues in that scene from "The Incredibles," I don't really see why washout or ANSI contrast should be a big problem for (liquid coupled) CRT front projection in general. Proponents of digital technologies seem to be quite concerned with ANSI contrast as an important component of image quality, and some point out the deficiency of CRTs in this regard. However, if you accept that ANSI contrast/washout could have an effect on a blended CRT set-up, and accept that in practice it does not, I think that perhaps the effect of ANSI contrast on overall image quality might be somewhat overstated. I'm not saying that it doesn't have an effect, but if it wasn't a major issue in a torture test I don't see how it could be a major issue in general.

I could be wrong in these assumptions and speculations; if someone could explain why I would greatly appreciate it.

Andres, do send me a PM.

Darin, thanks for the enlightening read. Do you have any speculations as to what sort of ANSI contrast ratios a display device would need to approach transparency?

EDIT: Congratulations, Cliff, and thanks for the thread.

Firmware succesfully flashed. Settings retained.Did you make a new cable with the funky pinouts?

Did you make a new cable with the funky pinouts?

Sure did big dog. All is good. Now for the hard part........ :mad:

Cliffy

EDIT: Congratulations, Cliff, and thanks for the thread.

Your welcome and I will reply to your comments when I get some more time, but it's off to the kids christmas show at school and back home to tweak the twins. :)

Time is running out.......

Cliff

However, if you accept that ANSI contrast/washout could have an effect on a blended CRT set-up, and accept that in practice it does not, I think that perhaps the effect of ANSI contrast on overall image quality might be somewhat overstated. I'm not saying that it doesn't have an effect, but if it wasn't a major issue in a torture test I don't see how it could be a major issue in general.

I could be wrong in these assumptions and speculations

I agree especially since IMO we accept the equivalent of ANSI degredation in real life when there are headlights in ones face, for example, and everything around is lost but on a clear night overlooking a city you don't expect a fog when you look around at small brightly lit objects in the distance.

Art

Tweaking my blend, and the TWINS>....... wait that sounds like a beer comerical.

Tweaking my blend, and the TWINS>....... wait that sounds like a beer comerical.

Don

My instinct is, that had you attended Saturday, it would have Felt like a beer commercial!!!!!!! :-) :D :D :D :D :D :D

I'm not easily impressed, but yes it was a wondered setup even in the state it was in when I left that sad day. I misss the twins..

So I called Clarence tonight to ask him to drive back to take more shots because I was able to improve the blendzone.

He kindly (well not really kindly) basically told me to stick it where the SUN DONT SHINE as I have a bar tab with him right now from my last visit to him, so I gave it a go myself.........

http://www.seriouspc.com/blend/screens/1.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/blend/screens/2.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/blend/screens/3.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/blend/screens/4.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/blend/screens/5.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/blend/screens/6.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/blend/screens/7.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/blend/screens/8.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/blend/screens/9.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/blend/screens/10.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/blend/screens/11.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/blend/screens/12.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/blend/screens/13.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/blend/screens/14.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/blend/screens/15.jpg

Cliff - Can I ask how you improved it further and what you improved?

Also, in the first screenshot, it appears to be an all black background, and I dont see a hint of a blendzone. Did the camera take this properly, I remember you saying in a FTB the blend was visible, or is this different?

http://www.seriouspc.com/blend/screens/16.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/blend/screens/17.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/blend/screens/18.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/blend/screens/19.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/blend/screens/20.jpg

http://www.seriouspc.com/blend/screens/21.jpg

GOTTA LOVE THE LIGHT OUTPUT FROM 2 G90'S!!!!!

Cliffy

Oh and... blended Jessica Alba... mmmmm!

Can you take a screenshot of an white field?

Cliff - Can I ask how you improved it further and what you improved?

Also, in the first screenshot, it appears to be an all black background, and I dont see a hint of a blendzone. Did the camera take this properly, I remember you saying in a FTB the blend was visible, or is this different?

HEY!!!! You were supposed to wait until I was done!!!! ;) :p

The Blendzone is now ALL GONE in full blackout. :)

I just slowly kept adjusting click by click and sending to the projectors until I got it perfect. There is only SLIGHT blendzone visibility now on 100IRE. :cool:

Cliffy

What did you adjust click by click? The SE curve? Can you give an 100IRE pic?

What did you adjust click by click? The SE curve? Can you give an 100IRE pic?

Yes big dog. But both Bezier and Polyline need adjustments to get it just right. I still need to play a bit more and it's getting late.

Here is 100IRE from Toshiba HD DVD. The left projector is still giving me a fit on color uniformity. I think it has to do with the Green tube being replaced and the phosphor still needing to be cured a bit as it has less than 100 hours on it. Either that or the blue has wear that is uneven. Not sure yet. I'll have to visit it with Ken.

Either way, as you can see on the bottom of the pic where color uniformity is much better in the center (plus the camera isn't helping), on the left and right is the edge of the blend zone.

http://www.seriouspc.com/blend/screens/100ireresize.jpg

Cliff

Thanks mate. I didnt know that you could use bezier and polyline curves simultaneously, I thought it was one or the other? That looks great, especially if that's the worst case scenario for a blend. 99.9999% of the time I bet you dont see it now! Congrats on the setup. Now if only I can do the same.

Care to show me a pic of your SE curves when you have a chance? What % overlap do you have?

Thanks mate. I didnt know that you could use bezier and polyline curves simultaneously, I thought it was one or the other? That looks great, especially if that's the worst case scenario for a blend. 99.9999% of the time I bet you dont see it now! Congrats on the setup. Now if only I can do the same.

Care to show me a pic of your SE curves when you have a chance? What % overlap do you have?

BE VERY CAREFULL WITH POLYLINE GINO!!!!!! It is VERY EASY to really screw up the blendzone with those adjustments. I've noticed with polyline, it does the EXACT opposite as bezier (dim in the middle to bright at the edges of the blend zone) and I really ended up in a position the night before the meet to where I had to almost CANCEL the meet because of it.

Anywho, I've come to the conclusion after tonight spending time with the DVX that it is in fact DEFECTIVE. I have saved my setup SEVERAL different times to the hard drive and no matter which setup I load, the software is giving me default values with the adjusted values being displayed on the screen.

I was able to get 1200P MUCH closer tonight than I ever have but as a result of the bugs I am having with this early production unit, I have basically given up. No point in spending dedicated time with a unit that is defective.

Cliffy

Cliff,
did you ever try this pic?
preview:
http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/9232/avsforumtestpic02tf8.png
link to full resolution version (lossless compression):
http://rapidshare.com/files/7418179/AVSFORUMtestpic01.png

Kai

Kai,

I'll try to knock this out before I send back the unit next week.

Cliff

I'm not easily impressed, but yes it was a wondered setup even in the state it was in when I left that sad day. I misss the twins..

Dude, you were seriously missed that day......... :(

Cliffy

Just wanted to point out that although this number has gotten passed around, it is a completely bogus claim. I don't know if came from a 1/100 difference threshold in the CSF test, a limit of 100 levels, or from something else. But, in less than 5 minutes I can show how incorrect this is in a good room. As I mentioned, I'm not exactly sure where this got started, but tried to cover some of it with some tests you can run in my article on CR here:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_2/feature-article-contrast-ratio-5-2006-part-4.html

--Darin

Where have you been Darin? :)

Wish you would have found the time to stop by for a visit.

Cliff

Where have you been Darin? :)

Wish you would have found the time to stop by for a visit.
It would have been great to see it, but didn't end up being the best time to go. Sounds pretty awesome and I know you put guys put a lot of effort into getting things ready, so glad to hear it worked out so well.

--Darin

It would have been great to see it, but didn't end up being the best time to go. Sounds pretty awesome and I know you put guys put a lot of effort into getting things ready, so glad to hear it worked out so well.

--Darin

Thanks man. Maybe another day huh? ;)

Cliff

BE VERY CAREFULL WITH POLYLINE GINO!!!!!! It is VERY EASY to really screw up the blendzone with those adjustments. I've noticed with polyline, it does the EXACT opposite as bezier (dim in the middle to bright at the edges of the blend zone) and I really ended up in a position the night before the meet to where I had to almost CANCEL the meet because of it.


Cliff, would still be interested to see how your bezier and polylines looked. Thanks!

Cliff, would still be interested to see how your bezier and polylines looked. Thanks!

That's the problem Gino. When I tried 1200P, switched back to 1024P, and loaded my saved file, my settings were on the screen, but the numbers in the software were at default.

Cliff

Hello All,

I just wanted to add some VERY important info to my thread in regards to the Zilla.....

This morning, I have to return the box because it was given to me on loan strictly for the meet.

I'm a pretty damn smart dude and have been in this hobby for quite a long time even before I became a member of AVS and with everything going on at the time of the meet, I just did not get to spend the quality time with the box that I wish I could have before the meet which put me into a situation to where I was rushed to get the setup just right video wise in a short window before the meet.

I ran into some serious issues with deinterlacing and stair stepping with clips from various HD DVD's that I own with my Toshiba XA1 HD DVD player sending 1080i to the box that were unacceptable and for the life of me, I could not figure out why I had these problems and ran out of time to try to figure out why by the meet.

Well, of course knowing that the box is being returned tomorrow, I decided to spend some time tonight with my G90's and Tim's box to just for once to finally WATCH SOMETHING and relax. :)

Low and behold, with my XBOX hooked up to Tim's box on input 1 via component 1080P, my .TS files were playing back flawlesssly and the "normal" issues a videophile would see at 60hz were evident, but nothing nearly even resembling what I was experiencing with the Toshiba on input 2 (stair stepping and horrible de interlacing) was evident at all what so ever.

I then proceeded to hook up the Toshiba to input one after spending a couple of hours with my 360 to see if I could re create the problems I was having and walla, they were gone. Everything was chiming together just like it should and I'm PISSED.

So, yes, the Zilla has a bad input module that I unfortunately wasn't smart enough to resolve before the meet hence why I feel the need to post to everyone in the forum my results after finally having some quality alone time with the box tonight to play.

The particular input I used is defective and felt the need to post this information so that everyone knows what's up. This Zilla unit that was sent to me for the meet is an "EARLY PRODUCTION" unit (number 5 to be exact) which leads me to believe that many of the problems I've had are related to this.

Just thought everyone should know...........

Cliff

Wow now that sucks major Donkey Balls...

Wow now that sucks major Donkey Balls...

Yeah, but at least I know for sure now that the newer production units like Tim's, Gino's, and Andres' are not affected by this. I just wish that it would have been figured out by the meet.

Note to self:

NEVER try to move into a new house, build a make shift theater, and have a meet within two weeks of moving in.........

Cliff

P.S. Don, board going out today. Thanks again man.

Cliff I was just happy that I was able to assist you in your time of need.

Note to self:

NEVER try to move into a new house, build a make shift theater, and have a meet within two weeks of moving in.........

Cliff




Uh, Three Weeks???????

Hello All,

I just wanted to add some VERY important info to my thread in regards to the Zilla.....

This morning, I have to return the box because it was given to me on loan strictly for the meet.

I'm a pretty damn smart dude and have been in this hobby for quite a long time even before I became a member of AVS and with everything going on at the time of the meet, I just did not get to spend the quality time with the box that I wish I could have before the meet which put me into a situation to where I was rushed to get the setup just right video wise in a short window before the meet.

I ran into some serious issues with deinterlacing and stair stepping with clips from various HD DVD's that I own with my Toshiba XA1 HD DVD player sending 1080i to the box that were unacceptable and for the life of me, I could not figure out why I had these problems and ran out of time to try to figure out why by the meet.

Well, of course knowing that the box is being returned tomorrow, I decided to spend some time tonight with my G90's and Tim's box to just for once to finally WATCH SOMETHING and relax. :)

Low and behold, with my XBOX hooked up to Tim's box on input 1 via component 1080P, my .TS files were playing back flawlesssly and the "normal" issues a videophile would see at 60hz were evident, but nothing nearly even resembling what I was experiencing with the Toshiba on input 2 (stair stepping and horrible de interlacing) was evident at all what so ever.

I then proceeded to hook up the Toshiba to input one after spending a couple of hours with my 360 to see if I could re create the problems I was having and walla, they were gone. Everything was chiming together just like it should and I'm PISSED.

So, yes, the Zilla has a bad input module that I unfortunately wasn't smart enough to resolve before the meet hence why I feel the need to post to everyone in the forum my results after finally having some quality alone time with the box tonight to play.

The particular input I used is defective and felt the need to post this information so that everyone knows what's up. This Zilla unit that was sent to me for the meet is an "EARLY PRODUCTION" unit (number 5 to be exact) which leads me to believe that many of the problems I've had are related to this.

Just thought everyone should know...........

Cliff

Sounds like you should ask for an extension on the loaner... or maybe they'll cut you a great deal on this "defective" unit

Sounds like you should ask for an extension on the loaner... or maybe they'll cut you a great deal on this "defective" unit


Cliffy deserves A-1 perfect quality and nothing less......

Cliff,
did you ever try this pic?
..........
link to full resolution version (lossless compression):
http://rapidshare.com/files/7418179...UMtestpic01.png

Kai
Kai,

I'll try to knock this out before I send back the unit next week.

Cliff
Can't reach it ... How can I download this picture ?

How can I download this picture ?I rehosted it here:
http://crtforum.com/img/AVSFORUMtestpic01.png (3.6 Mb)
Right-click, "Save Target As..."

thanks Clarence

Kai

Just recieved the my G90 board via UPS thanks for getting it back so fast :)... I so want to hang my PJ but.... I know what will happen if I do.

I tried every permutation of those a month ago when MS added 1080P to the X360, to no avail:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8899803&&#post8899803

I re-tried them tonight, just in case anything had changed, but I still can't get the full left side of the 1080P image without the right side wrapping under.


Clarence, have you tried 720p with the X360? I understand that's a bit like putting pedals on a Ferrari F430, but just curious. ;) :D

Guys!

For those interested, in the Virginia-DC region, we may have a BlendZilla meet coming near you in the late April time frame; more details as the plans congeal......Mike Parker is part of the plan.......

Cliff - Are you 100% sure the input is faulty ???

Could it be any settings within the unit ???

I know its not yours but it would be good to hear once the unit is back if the inputs are modular and this was indeed a faulty input.

If that unit is used for loan to others then it needs to be noted so others dont have the same issues.

Maybe Tim and others with Zilla could also test input2 with HD DVD vs input 1 - There is always a chance its a firmware issue, and better to know about these things, its very difficult to test everything on low production run units.......

Good question Mad. After extensive conversation with Tim we both concluded that the unit has issues. He did not have the problems I did with his unit and as well, Gino is problem free.

I also updated the box with the latest firmware available before the meet. :)

Cliff

My days are spent fault finding AV systems, Glad you managed to narrow it down to an input, that will at least help others.......

Guessing inputs are modular so should be an easy replace.

I have now read this thread from start to here in one go.........

Cliff - could you please confirm the final settings you used and physical lens to screen distance etc.

(Gino as well if you can)

Please include resolutions fed to Zilla, output res, overlap size % or pixel, etc. Anything of use to others in fact........

Sorry if this is covered in the thread but I cant find it all !!!

Andy

Recommended overlap for 1.78 is 20% and the DVX pixel setting would be around 392; the pixel overlap available range is 0 (edge butt) to about 500. Other controls include Extend on/off and Softedge on/off, one wants it off when converging the overlap.

Guys!

As Cliffy stated on his last trial, "Low and behold, with my XBOX hooked up to Tim's box on input 1 via component 1080P, my .TS files were playing back flawlesssly and the "normal" issues a videophile would see at 60hz were evident, but nothing nearly even resembling what I was experiencing with the Toshiba on input 2 (stair stepping and horrible de interlacing) was evident at all what so ever."

The machine was bench tested back at Analog New York and they found no problems, so chalk this one up to Sun Spots or something.....

Guys!


Colts over Dolphins, close game to the end; my BlendZilla in Phoenix:


http://i18.tinypic.com/4g6trat.jpg

http://i10.tinypic.com/2rxb9qw.jpg

http://i18.tinypic.com/2j4oj5z.jpg

http://i17.tinypic.com/44103f9.jpg

sorry for noob questions but how does one get hd versions of movies that haven't been released on hd-dvd or blu-ray yet and who would one call to get a setup like these?

We are having SO much fun with this!

Ken, Arli, and Don left hours ago to get some sleep like sensible people, but Cliff and I kept playing and did a rough setup so we could watch some blended 12' wide HD:

http://crtforum.com/img/cliff01.jpg


Wait did the incredibles come out on HD-DVD or was that just an up-conversion??
Looks amazing.

Wait did the incredibles come out on HD-DVD or was that just an up-conversion??
Looks amazing.It was on HD cable last year (great 1080i transfer)...
http://archive2.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6780525&&#post6780525

Wait did the incredibles come out on HD-DVD or was that just an up-conversion??
Looks amazing.

disney doesnt even support hd-dvd so...

although the PotC 2 dvd has nice trailer with big list of whats coming on Blu Ray

I came across this picture from the demo, so I thought I'd add it.

Here's Arli, Ryan (with his Pearl), and Cliff (with his blended G90's on the ceiling)...

http://crtforum.com/img/arli-ryan-cliff.jpg

AWESOME CLARENCE THANKS!!!!!! :^)

Cliff

Ahhh wook at the wittle Pearl, it's so cute. Digitals have come along way and yet so far to go. No thats contrast I mean contrast of size.

Guys!


What is the harm.........of a few new screen shots, eh? Eagles Saints in progress.......


http://i11.tinypic.com/4dhkoxf.jpg

http://i12.tinypic.com/2wr16k2.jpg

http://i13.tinypic.com/2nhqqu8.jpg

and for Curt and Cliffy.........

http://i1.tinypic.com/2z8xap5.jpg

Here is one:



http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p146/CarlosMeat/DSC01986.jpg

Here is one:



http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p146/CarlosMeat/DSC01986.jpg

CLASSIC BIG DOG!!!!!

AWESOME!

I'm just in awe at what was accomplished in such a short amount of time. I'm sure you were too. :)

Cliffy

Ken's either mesmerized or terrified of that light bulb... like a moth to the flame...
Hmmm, the color temperature of that bulb seems off... too much red and green... I wonder how I can bump the blue? :p

CLASSIC BIG DOG!!!!!

AWESOME!

I'm just in awe at what was accomplished in such a short amount of time. I'm sure you were too. :)

Cliffy

Yes, I was young man ! It was great seeing it but also great hearing you guys discussing what went into it. I'm looking foward to coming over when the room is complete and we can party ! I need to get a room over there this time though. Unlike you, I can't get tanked and drive three hundred miles at O dark thirty. :D

Speaking of party did you and that other ISF guy Gannon have a talk outside ? I've never heard you say that there was too much bass before. ;) :D

Art

Yes, I was young man ! It was great seeing it but also great hearing you guys discussing what went into it. I'm looking foward to coming over when the room is complete and we can party ! I need to get a room over there this time though. Unlike you, I can't get tanked and drive three hundred miles at O dark thirty. :D

Speaking of party did you and that other ISF guy Gannon have a talk outside ? I've never heard you say that there was too much bass before. ;) :D

Art

I'm so looking foward to that day! I actually couldn't help but put one of the G90's back on the ceiling until we get back to work and am wondering if I'm going to have to retube because of all of the time I've spent watching it in the last month. :eek:

As far as that other ISF guy, well, um, yeah, um, we had a conversation. ;) :p

Cliffy

"OK Cliff, if you go out and look in my trunk I think I have a few more things we can hook up to this thing" :D

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p146/CarlosMeat/DSC01990.jpg

We all look damned tired, don't we?

I was so spent...........

But boy was it fun!!!!!! :^)

Cliffy

are those Surgery booties that Ken has on??? Man I should have brought scrubs with me, oh wait I was at the hospital and couldn't make it :(

Next time when the theaters ready Cliff I'm taking the day off in advance. I'll be shutting off all my phones.

That is EXACTLY how Ken looked when he left my house at 1:30am after applying his finishing touches. Anyone else would have packed it in well before that. I can't say enough about his dedication to his trade.

****! I AM STILL PISSED I COULDN'T MAKE THIS G2G!!!!!

Doc

That is EXACTLY how Ken looked when he left my house at 1:30am after applying his finishing touches. Anyone else would have packed it in well before that. I can't say enough about his dedication to his trade.

****! I AM STILL PISSED I COULDN'T MAKE THIS G2G!!!!!

Doc

We all wish you could have made it too Doc. :)

I was just reading through the thread again and thinking about all of the events that lead to the meet. What a wonderful time it was even though I was extremely sleep deprived.

Even though those screenshots look so damn good, you just had to be there. Simply amazing. :D ;)

Cliff

I have never had the pleasure of seeing a 90 in person but heard they were good size but in that picture they do not look that bad.

I have never had the pleasure of seeing a 90 in person but heard they were good size but in that picture they do not look that bad.

That picture is very deceptive.

There is a picture floating around of a G90 with three children sitting on top of the hood. Can't find it anymore.

a Sony G90:

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/1756/feelsnice9ak.jpg

and a Barco 808s:

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7444/barco808ssize2ji.jpg

I have never had the pleasure of seeing a 90 in person but heard they were good size but in that picture they do not look that bad.

Hehe, it's not bad once they are on the ceiling. :)

It's building AROUND them that is the pain! :eek:

250lbs EACH.

Cliff

It must be the angle of the shot. That Barco looks bigger then the Sony. I had a few NEC 10PGs
( loved them but I know it was not in the same league as the Sony or Barco) and the Sony does not look much bigger if any.

Here's my G90 in the back of an 8-passenger SUV:

http://img481.imageshack.us/img481/1203/g903aj.jpg

Much longer and wider than the Marquee that I sized my recessed ceiling mount for.

The Barco is even longer, but shallower.

It must be the angle of the shot. That Barco looks bigger then the Sony. I had a few NEC 10PGs
( loved them but I know it was not in the same league as the Sony or Barco) and the Sony does not look much bigger if any.


Actually Alan, I think the 10PG is longer than the G90 but as wide. The 10PG is a MONSTER and probably one of the most under rated CRT projectors EVER. What a hell of a pic that PJ still to this day throws.

Cliff

My 10PG was fired onto an 8 foot wide 185:1 Stewart silver screen. Back then all we had was dvd but to my eye it looked like film. At one point I coupled it to a Teranex. I was able to dial out any EE with the Tera and man did it look good. I miss that setup.

sorry for noob questions but how does one get hd versions of movies that haven't been released on hd-dvd or blu-ray yet and who would one call to get a setup like these?
Hello nithr and welcome to the CRT forum. There's only 1 place I know where you can purchase the Diventix processor. e-tech in Phoenix AZ. http://www.etechvideo.com/home.htm
I think these guys were watching a lot of standard DVD that was up-scaled by the Diventix to 1920 x 1080 (1080P) or there-abouts. So far this has only been done with the sony G90 and electrohome Marquee chassis, I would stick to one of those 2 platforms unless your really adventerous. Also, if your new to CRT a pro-install is highly recomended.

I think these guys were watching a lot of standard DVD that was up-scaled by the Diventix to 1920 x 1080 (1080P)
I can't recall watching a single frame of standard def that week.

The content that wasn't HD-DVD or Blu-ray was from a HD cable DVR (Motorola 6412). Some HD clips were extracted as .ts files using firewire and played back using the XBox 360.

I can't recall watching a single frame of standard def that week.

The content that wasn't HD-DVD or Blu-ray was from a HD cable DVR (Motorola 6412). Some HD clips were extracted as .ts files using firewire and played back using the XBox 360.

Standard def??? GROSS!!!!!! :p ;)

We did watch a small touch from Gary Murrel's Yammy but I think maybe less than 2 minutes worth.......

Cliffy

you guys are spoiled. I don't recall reading any prefrences between BR and HD-DVD, was there a clear winner?

you guys are spoiled. I don't recall reading any prefrences between BR and HD-DVD, was there a clear winner?

There is NO winner in a format war like this consumer wise. So far, I prefer HD DVD but BD is clearly gaining steam and BD50 titles have much improved picture quality over BD 25.

Cliff

I think the format war might have some benefits to the consumer... I think the war was reponsible for Microsoft producing the XBox 360 HD-DVD add on to counter BD on the Sony PS3.

But I agree... no overall PQ winner... it varies from title to title. Some HDDVD titles look better than some BD titles, and vice versa. So it really boils down to title availability.

HD-DVD players are still more affordable. And I like the advantage of being able to burn HD files to DVD-R in the HD-DVD format.

I read an article in PC world which said the adult video industry is putting their money into Blu-ray which some "experts" believe is enough to turn the tide and make BR the eventual winner. The article also claimed it was the adult industry's decision to go with VHS that put Beta out of the consumer market.

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, it's exactly the opposite as what you say from what I understand.

Cliff

Actually, if I'm not mistaken, it's exactly the opposite as what you say from what I understand.

Cliff I just read the article this morning. I hope I'm not that senile yet. :confused:

actually you are both right, it just depends on when the article was written, and what portion of the adult industry.

Over a year from the consumer launch of BR or HD-DVD, the big players in the adult production industry picked BR, due to higher capacity, and better potential for interactivity, and I think a sense of history regarding the PS-2 driving DVD adoption.

However, the big news on the subject is that largely because of pressure from sony to prevent adult titles being duplicated at Blue-Ray production facilities, a large high end production house recently switched from BR to HD-DVD.

I just read the article this morning. I hope I'm not that senile yet. :confused:

I've been senile for years....... :eek: :)

actually you are both right, it just depends on when the article was written, and what portion of the adult industry.

Over a year from the consumer launch of BR or HD-DVD, the big players in the adult production industry picked BR, due to higher capacity, and better potential for interactivity, and I think a sense of history regarding the PS-2 driving DVD adoption.

However, the big news on the subject is that largely because of pressure from sony to prevent adult titles being duplicated at Blue-Ray production facilities, a large high end production house recently switched from BR to HD-DVD.

Interesting article here.....apparently both formats are dead....
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=36942

I can't recall watching a single frame of standard def that week.

The content that wasn't HD-DVD or Blu-ray was from a HD cable DVR (Motorola 6412). Some HD clips were extracted as .ts files using firewire and played back using the XBox 360.Does anyone know if it is really legal to record HD clips from a Motorola 6412? I'm thinking of doing this myself but I don't want to worry about getting into trouble.

Does anyone know if it is really legal to record HD clips from a Motorola 6412? I'm thinking of doing this myself but I don't want to worry about getting into trouble.AKAIK, as long as it's for personal use... time shifting shows so you can watch them later, and they're not sold or distributed.

I don't think any individual has ever "gotten into trouble" for using the firewire port on their cable box... it's there and being used in it's intended purpose. No hardware hacks are even required.

It's the same as using a JVC 30K DVHS recorder... it uses the exact same firewire connection.

.ts clips from freely broadcast OTA HD might be a good demo source, too, if you'd feel more comfortable with that... Microsoft, ATI, and HP offer OTA HD recording.

But if you're uncomfortable, then by all means, err on the side of caution.

You might find more useful info in the AVS "HDTV Recorders" forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&f=42).

Thanks Clarence. I knew that recording and archiving OTA was cool but just did not know for sure it was ok for subscribed cable.

I do my best to stay clear of trouble but somehow seem to manage to get into it anyway.

Its' actually illegal for your cable provider to not provide and active firewire port or other means of allowing you independent fair use recording technologies. (FCC regs, 2004. I'll have to look up the specifics, buit I found the references on the HDTV recording forum here.)

Its' actually illegal for your cable provider to not provide and active firewire port or other means of allowing you independent fair use recording technologies. (FCC regs, 2004. I'll have to look up the specifics, buit I found the references on the HDTV recording forum here.)If thats the case then Dish network must be breaking the law because AFAIK there is no way to get firewire out of any of their boxes. And it is for exactly that reason that I pretty sure I am going to dump them and go to Charter cable. The subscription price is pretty close anyway.

Dish network is not a cable company, not subject to the firewire req. Unfortunate, but true.

Guys!

I would be very appreciative if those who attended and have some people pix would post those here or on my BlendZilla SoCal thread, cause I need volunteera for LA!!!!!!!

bump to correct the hosting pics that have been moved. Gonna take a while so please be patient!!!!!

Cliff

Bump. Still got to fix pictures. Been too damn busy finishing the theater.

Cliff

Bump!

One last bump so she doesn't get archived with pics that dont work on Sunday.

What a pain in the ass it is to move your pics from one URL to another.....

I promise, one day, I'll get it done!

Cliffy

Still need to fix those pix!!!!!!!!

:)

Bump to fix the pix!

Bump...

Where's the Pics man?

talk about a blast from the past....

but at least I didnt sell out and get a bulb thinggyyyy:eek:

PICS FINALLY FIXED!!!!!!

FINALLY! :D

Cliffy

Hmm this must be a usage of the word fixed that I'm not familiar with??

Hmm this must be a usage of the word fixed that I'm not familiar with??

How about repaired? reposted? edited? :)