As per theta, we will have an HDMI 1.2 (video only) switching board available this year and an HDMI 1.3 audio/video board in late 2008 or early 2009.

That's a long time to wait.

1.2 video switching is useless.

As per theta, we will have an HDMI 1.2 (video only) switching board available this year and an HDMI 1.3 audio/video board in late 2008 or early 2009.

That's a long time to wait.

1.2 video switching is useless.

Wow, that would be a long wait. I would actually prefer an HDMI next gen audio only solution initially since I would probably continue to use a separate video processor/scaler (though I may be in the minority in this regard).

Not surprising. I am sure it will be good but being first on the scene with the cutting edge stuff has never been Theta's thing. But perhaps by 2009, something new will be coming......;)

Not surprising. I am sure it will be good but being first on the scene with the cutting edge stuff has never been Theta's thing. But perhaps by 2009, something new will be coming......;)

The Casablanca has a big name and years of history and upgrades going for it.
Theta gives no indication of discontinuing the line. Adding HDMI, yes. And of course if this involves substantial internal changes, this may likely involve going back to the factory for upgrade. And the HDMI upgrade will certainly be more expensive than the last one. From CB1 to 2 was $800. From CB2 to 3 was $2,000.
My bet is CB3 to 4 will include HDMI plus DD+, Dolby True HD, etc and that the upgrade will be at minimum $3,000 - but it will be the latest and greatest surround processor. Nothing wrong with that.

Jeff, any more word on when your Halcro surround processor will be updated
for LPCM via HDMI???

Jeff, any more word on when your Halcro surround processor will be updated
for LPCM via HDMI???

Hell no.

Halcro has said February (in fairness they told me Feb in late Nov. and it is not yet February) and it is killing me waiting. I talked with my dealer, they have a working model but apparently Vinci labs is the hold up. Whatever, my patience is wearing thin. I like the sound so much, I couldn't go back to the Lexicon so my balls are in the sling so to speak.

A Video only switcher? I'll pass. I'll wait till 1.3 and DTS-HD Master is released.

Hell no.

Halcro has said February (in fairness they told me Feb in late Nov. and it is not yet February) and it is killing me waiting. I talked with my dealer, they have a working model but apparently Vinci labs is the hold up. Whatever, my patience is wearing thin. I like the sound so much, I couldn't go back to the Lexicon so my balls are in the sling so to speak.

Jeff, this is the sort of thing that Theta as well is often at mercy of - suppliers and part problems. This caused delay of some months in the CB3 upgrade a few years ago. Halcro is just starting to learn what Theta has learned the hard way and maybe still hasn't learned enough - dates they think a product will be available just usually don't work that way. Its not available until the bird is in hand. I knew when you bought your surround processor there was no way the LPCM was gonna be available that fast. Lexicon is a much bigger company - Harman - and they were able to pull it off, more reliable parts availability.

As per theta, we will have an HDMI 1.2 (video only) switching board available this year and an HDMI 1.3 audio/video board in late 2008 or early 2009.

That's a long time to wait.

1.2 video switching is useless.
That is a long time. Adding the 1.2 switching was likely very easy and cheap to do. I have no need for it. Guess I can spend my money some more Mcintosh MC501 monoblocks now:). No need to budget for this. We need some newer dacs too if it is going to take that long. The Burr Brown 1704 dac in the Xtreme and Superior II dac was released in 1998. The Burr Brown 1702 dac in the original Superior dac is even older. Mcintosh is even worse for upgrades. Their new MX136 does not even have HDMI. I do not know how they could do that with a product released in 2007.

and it is killing me waiting

We will have to wait 2 years. imagine how killing this is going to be. :eek:

Then they should do the HDMI 1.1 this year and the 1.3 in two years. That would make too much sense though.

If there has to be a two phase introduction of HDMI, what would folks prefer first, LPCM audio support over HDMI or just plain video switching? Of course the ability to do both is the best solution but this will apparently take a little while.

I prefer LPCM audio support over video switching.

I'm hearing early March for the Halcro release in the best case but I suspect it will be even later than that

I prefer LPCM audio support over video switching.

I'm hearing early March for the Halcro release in the best case but I suspect it will be even later than that

The bet in Vegas is early next year at the very earliest. :confused:

If there has to be a two phase introduction of HDMI,

Why does there have to be a two-phase introduction? No other company needs to operate like this. Why is Theta the exception?

Perhaps I misunderstood but thought we were talking about the Halcro upgrade.

Why does there have to be a two-phase introduction? No other company needs to operate like this. Why is Theta the exception?

I suggest that you read through this entire thread. Theta has considered all of this and decided to do a one phase do-it-all, I assume because that's where they perceive their profitable demand to be.

Are you a Theta owner? I only ask because I can appreciate a Theta owner saying darn I would like this now - but for non-Theta owners griping about a company they don't own a product and likely have no such intention, sort of hypocritical. But typical for the web.

Its easy to say that if I were Theta, this is what I would do. But you aren't paying for it, are you? You aren't taking the financial risk? And you aren't the Theta customer who pays for the interim HDMI upgrade, then bitches 1-2 years later at the down time and almost same cost (as non first version HDMI upgraders) for the final HDMI upgrade.

The only way a small AV manufacturer (not a Sony, not a Harman group company) can win is by sales, profits, and continued viability - not necessarily by web forum popularity when it comes to new technologies.

Why does there have to be a two-phase introduction? No other company needs to operate like this. Why is Theta the exception?

I don't know and I agree with you that it is not the best way to proceed. Since they are apparently going to introduce a v1.2 solution with a v1.3 upgrade at a later date it would seem (if this is indeed what they plan to do) that they are going to go the two phase route.

I do not own a Casablanca III (though I am looking at potentially getting one) but personally I have no real interest in a video only HDMI option since I would still use a dedicated video processor and would use the Casablanca for the audio. This is not because I believe that mixing the audio and video is a bad thing (it could be, I don't really know to be honest. I thought that with HDMI, the audio and video is there no matter what?) I have recently bought a dedicated video processor and I am now considering my options for a pre-pro for the audio.

I would have thought that most people would be looking at HDMI to get the new audio formats with LPCM since there are already a lot of good HDMI switchers/video processors available. Having said that, is it not still possible to enjoy the new audio formats to some degree with old fashioned digital interconnects so long as the player decodes the audio and spits it out through it's pre-outs?

I know that thebland has stated that while his Halcro has no LPCM audio over HDMI yet (though it is coming.... :) ) it still sounds very good?

audiman,

Can you tell us where your information about the Casablaca / HDMI time line came from?

I just went to their site to see if there was any more information about it. The stuff there about HDMI looks a little dated. I think they wrote it right after asking us about it last October. It doesn't have specifics about the release date but I thought their plan was to have a board with video and audio in HDMI 1.3 late this year. Did this change?

To hopefully find out for sure , I'm copying this to Evelyn Sinclair.

Info came from John Ballof (or Baillof ?) from an email, Friday afternoon (2007-01-19).

From this thread, we where supposed to get the HDMi 1.3 at the end of this year, but now, it's looking more like early 2009.

Not sure if i'm gone keep my CB3 + SS.

Well you can count me in the club of people who are sooooo glad we didn't "triple down" with Theta's ridiculous CasaNova trade-in 18 months ago. Didn't feel right then, doesn't feel right now.

Video switching only. Is this some kind of cruel joke on CasaBlanca owners? I don't see how their reputation cannot be tainted at this point, even among CasaBlanca owners. Wow, just wow. Amazing. I don't care how good their stuff sounds, this is intolerable.

I'm sure at least one of the other higher end companies will have an all in one new solution well before Theta does anything with Frankenstein, oops, I mean CasaBlanca. It's just a matter of who's going to do it...

One wonders if HDMI is yet another technology that will put a lot of high-end companies that may have been teetering out of business. I've seen a lot of excuse giving and/or frustrations coming from designers over HDMI. This may be yet another one of those "lightning elimination rounds".

Gentlemen,

John's information was at least as much a shock to Neil and me as it was to you. Alarmed that John was privy to some new and horrible pronouncement from engineering that had not yet reached us, we called him this afternoon.

He had gotten his information from our web statement written late last year and shared with those on this thread. The only problem is that he got it wrong.

John works five feet from one of our engineers and often gets input from engineering. However, because he thought he knew, he didn't ask.

John, Neil and I are very embarrassed. At least this forced us to re-read Neil's open letter on HDMI posted on the FAQ setction of the Theta site. It does need to be updated but the only substantive change for Casablanca is that (in the letter) we predicted that we would see the first 1.3 receiver chips in the spring while in actuality we are told that they should arrive before the end of this month.

--------------

Regarding Dolby and DTS processing in players; yes, of course, this should be no problem, like decompressing a zip file. However, so many times in the past, we have seen the major companies kill performance to save a few dollars, often, a few pennies. We'll believe they got it right when we can make the comparison for ourselves.

He had gotten his information from our web statement written late last year and shared with those on this thread. The only problem is that he got it wrong.

John works five feet from one of our engineers and often gets input from engineering. However, because he thought he knew, he didn't ask.

It does need to be updated but the only substantive change for Casablanca is that (in the letter) we predicted that we would see the first 1.3 receiver chips in the spring while in actuality we are told that they should arrive before the end of this month.

Great news :) ! This means that things are actually going slightly faster than expected and not slower. I believe I better budget for the upgrade after all.

Well you can count me in the club of people who are sooooo glad we didn't "triple down" with Theta's ridiculous CasaNova trade-in 18 months ago. Didn't feel right then, doesn't feel right now.

You are very wrong with that statement. There is a large difference between the Casanova and the CBIII with Extreme DACS.

You can now have multiple channels like 7.1, 7.2 etc where as the CasaNova is stuck at 5.1

Add the Six Shooter for analog audio and you have a great product. Plus the Casanova will be stuck with no HDMI, DTS-HD, DD+ where as the CBIII will.

Heck just the LCD display is 100% better. No more dimming crap where it's hard to read the display.

Don't get me wrong. I enjoyed the Nova when I had it. But I traded in my Chrysler for a Mercedes.

You are very wrong with that statement. There is a large difference between the Casanova and the CBIII with Extreme DACS.

You can now have multiple channels like 7.1, 7.2 etc where as the CasaNova is stuck at 5.1

Add the Six Shooter for analog audio and you have a great product. Plus the Casanova will be stuck with no HDMI, DTS-HD, DD+ where as the CBIII will.

Heck just the LCD display is 100% better. No more dimming crap where it's hard to read the display.

Don't get me wrong. I enjoyed the Nova when I had it. But I traded in my Chrysler for a Mercedes.

Yea. The Yugo was discontinued, too. Angstrom and Proceed, among others, went out of business. Us Casablanca owners are glad Theta makes conservative but
sound business decisions so they stay in business. You can never make everyone happy especially these days with instand web complaining. At least when it comes to the Better Business Bureau, they complain once. But with the web, they complain repeatedly taking up space at areas where current users are discussing substantive stuff about using the company's products.\

Gentlemen,

John's information was at least as much a shock to Neil and me as it was to you. Alarmed that John was privy to some new and horrible pronouncement from engineering that had not yet reached us, we called him this afternoon.

He had gotten his information from our web statement written late last year and shared with those on this thread. The only problem is that he got it wrong.

John works five feet from one of our engineers and often gets input from engineering. However, because he thought he knew, he didn't ask.

John, Neil and I are very embarrassed. At least this forced us to re-read Neil's open letter on HDMI posted on the FAQ setction of the Theta site. It does need to be updated but the only substantive change for Casablanca is that (in the letter) we predicted that we would see the first 1.3 receiver chips in the spring while in actuality we are told that they should arrive before the end of this month.

--------------

Regarding Dolby and DTS processing in players; yes, of course, this should be no problem, like decompressing a zip file. However, so many times in the past, we have seen the major companies kill performance to save a few dollars, often, a few pennies. We'll believe they got it right when we can make the comparison for ourselves.

Jeff (the Bland), this is good and bad news for you with your Halcro surround processor. No way Halcro is doing a software LPCM upgrade. Clearly they're waiting for the new chips - I think they were anyway. But you, too, are that much closer to getting this, too.

Jeff (the Bland), this is good and bad news for you with your Halcro surround processor. No way Halcro is doing a software LPCM upgrade. Clearly they're waiting for the new chips - I think they were anyway. But you, too, are that much closer to getting this, too.

Steve,

I have been aware from the get go that this is a hardware AND software upgrade. I was informed by that from the top guys at Halcro. Some jumper is needed or something. That said, I am still waiting:).

The CBIII is turning out to have been a very wise investment considering that the upgrade will likely be in the 2k to 3k range. I am still in love with the Six Shooter and can not say enough about what a bargain that piece is.

You are very wrong with that statement. There is a large difference between the Casanova and the CBIII with Extreme DACS.
So let me get this straight. I said *I* was glad I didn't do the upgrade, and you're telling me i'm wrong. As in, I really am not glad I didn't do the upgrade? Excuse me sir, but who the hell are you to tell me what I think?

You can now have multiple channels like 7.1, 7.2 etc where as the CasaNova is stuck at 5.1

Add the Six Shooter for analog audio and you have a great product. Plus the Casanova will be stuck with no HDMI, DTS-HD, DD+ where as the CBIII will.

Heck just the LCD display is 100% better. No more dimming crap where it's hard to read the display.

Don't get me wrong. I enjoyed the Nova when I had it. But I traded in my Chrysler for a Mercedes.
I am fully aware of the differences between the two products. Thank you very much. How's the room EQ and HDMI working out for you on the CasaBlanca? :eek:

Look, let's not turn this into a CasaNova thread; My post was not meant that way. My post was simply that now it seems even CasaBlanca owners are going to have to wait a longer time than expected. And the point of my post was that I am sooo glad I didn't do the upgrade because I'm sure someone else will have an all in one solution well before Theta. The Nova to Blanca upgrade would solely have been a interim solution, whilst we wait once again for Theta to get off their @ss and do it "right".

I don't care what you say, for *ME* personally that is not something I was willing to do (i.e. sit around and wait for Theta). I fully understand that for some people being able to enjoy the great sound of the CasaBlanca in the interim (and possibly waiting a long time for what they really want) was a choice they made and one that they love. To each his own. :cool:

. It does need to be updated but the only substantive change for Casablanca is that (in the letter) we predicted that we would see the first 1.3 receiver chips in the spring while in actuality we are told that they should arrive before the end of this month.


So, is the time frame for the HDMI 1.3 board still for the end of 2007?

For you guys, I hope 2007. But that would seem overly optimistic as then Theta would likely be the first 1.3 processor to market.

Personally, I didn't expecrt to see any high end 1.3 processors until 2008 (even Lexicon).

For you guys, I hope 2007. But that would seem overly optimistic as then Theta would likely be the first 1.3 processor to market.

Personally, I didn't expect to see any high end 1.3 processors until 2008 (even Lexicon).

I agree with you on this bet . And that includes your Halcro surround processor, I think they'll do the LPCM upgrade all at once with the new 1.3 chip.

Maybe more of the "lower" end receivers would be available this fall, with 1.3 capabalities (Yamaha, Sherwood).

I agree with you on this bet . And that includes your Halcro surround processor, I think they'll do the LPCM upgrade all at once with the new 1.3 chip.

I hope not. I am not interested in 1.3. I'd rather have LPCM now (minus 1.3) and later, when things sort out, upgrade to a new,seasoned flagship 1.3 processor.

So let me get this straight. I said *I* was glad I didn't do the upgrade, and you're telling me i'm wrong. As in, I really am not glad I didn't do the upgrade? Excuse me sir, but who the hell are you to tell me what I think?


Then why in the HELL are you posting in this topic if you don't own the product? Why don't you keep to the Casanova owner threads?

If you don't own the product, then your input or opinions are not relevant to the concerns, wants, and needs of legitimate Casablanca owners.

So, is the time frame for the HDMI 1.3 board still for the end of 2007?


We consider it crucial and urgent to get it out before the end of this year.

You may want to monitor the 1.3 progress of the Japanese companies who build moderately priced receivers. At least some, possibly all, received their first prototype chips last October and are trying to get units finished for summer release. If it takes them longer, it likely means there are still some issues to be worked out with 1.3.

Then why in the HELL are you posting in this topic if you don't own the product? Why don't you keep to the Casanova owner threads?

If you don't own the product, then your input or opinions are not relevant to the concerns, wants, and needs of legitimate Casablanca owners.

What about future owners? I will get one, I am just trying to come to terms with having pay the slightly (read double) higher price that they seem to cost when they are shipped here to the UK!! Do you think we get "better" ones then you guys?! Maybe the UK model has HDMI already? :) :)

What about future owners? I will get one, I am just trying to come to terms with having pay the slightly (read double) higher price that they seem to cost when they are shipped here to the UK!! Do you think we get "better" ones then you guys?! Maybe the UK model has HDMI already? :) :)

Folks who are genuinely considering purchasing the Casablanca are clearly welcome here in this thread (that I started). I started this thread for the purpose of helping giving Theta meaningful feedback to consider re HDMI. And potential customers like you (not griping folks who bitch its too expensive or they got screwed in the past) give real helpful info to the folks at Theta.

We consider it crucial and urgent to get it out before the end of this year.

You may want to monitor the 1.3 progress of the Japanese companies who build moderately priced receivers. At least some, possibly all, received their first prototype chips last October and are trying to get units finished for summer release. If it takes them longer, it likely means there are still some issues to be worked out with 1.3.

Folks, this thread, and info in the audio video community like what's in this thread, has persuaded Theta that the sooner they can get HDMI 1.3 the better - and that they will lose rather than gain market share by waiting too long for HDMI 1.3. At least thats my interpretation. I think this is a case where the manufacturer has been listening and is trying its best to have it all ready to go once the chips are available.

Folks, this thread, and info in the audio video community like what's in this thread, has persuaded Theta that the sooner they can get HDMI 1.3 the better - and that they will lose rather than gain market share by waiting too long for HDMI 1.3. At least thats my interpretation. I think this is a case where the manufacturer has been listening and is trying its best to have it all ready to go once the chips are available.

I agree. I think the situation is very positive for current owners and for those who are considering the Casablanca III as a future purchase. The situation is much improved from yesterday that is for sure! :)

This situation is great. Theta is really making an effort to come through. Nice year, hi-rez audio in the CBIII and the JVC RS1. My theater is really going to be good this year.

This is good news indeed---for Theta owners of course but also for HDMI in general. I mean, Theta does seem to be a conservative player, so if they're getting serious about this then I think there are signs of stability ahead for HDMI.

Yeah Theta is going to be smokin if they pull this off.The Six Shooter can satisfy even the most die-hard audiophile and then a HDMI 1.3 upgrade this year! Vahalla PC, after a few wraps of ERS cloth would even be happy:D. I have been an audiophile since the age of ten when I got my first,"system". I have albums that my father gave me going back since I was 5 yeas old. This is the happiest I have ever been with my system. I really feel like I am almost there. Auidiophiles are never ever there. We just get a little "clarity" from time to time. This is one of those moments. I think I have the best surround processor on the market and maybe not the best pre-amp but the best bang for the buck in the market place. I mean 2k for world class analog. Theta is kickin ass. Pause:D, Then i remember post number 41 on the Halcro thread. Let's do the walking.

I am missing the post #41 thing...

Theta, like Halcro, is relying on 3rd party suppliers. That's the problem with predictions. But at least as deadlines come and go, there is a third party to blame:D!

If Theta beats out Lexicon and Halcro with 1.3, I'll eat my hat!!!! (though Lexicon I am sure is starting from the ground up with a whole new design). I need 5 HDMI right now and hope that Theta with their open architecture allows for at least 8 HDMI.

I suggest that you read through this entire thread.

Not only have I read this entire thread, I have followed it since its inception.

Are you a Theta owner?

Yes, I am. But that doesn't mean I have to be an appologist for Theta. The reality here is, they are a small company who is having difficulty adapting to what is a new paradigm in AV. They just aren't as nimble as the Asian mega firms who manufacture receivers.

But typical for the web.

Your words, not mine.

Not only have I read this entire thread, I have followed it since its inception.

Yes, I am. But that doesn't mean I have to be an appologist for Theta. The reality here is, they are a small company who is having difficulty adapting to what is a new paradigm in AV. They just aren't as nimble as the Asian mega firms who manufacture receivers.



Don't get me wrong. I would luv to have HDMI with LPCM yesterday. Only one high end company has done this so far - Lexicon, part of the large Harman group.

I simply can understand Theta's position from an economic standpoint. And fortunately, I don't use my CB3 for video switching, as I've got a CRT projector and use my Lumagen VisionPro HDP for that purpose, and HDCP encoded HD movies come out my video processor as a blank picture to comply with licensing requirements. But I would luv to try and compare LPCM over HDMI vs over analog.
I'm not apologizing for anyone, I am understanding the financials of the situation.
And the shipping costs both ways for the CB3, the upgrade costs for HDMI video only, and then likely the customer would have to pay the regular upgrade cost perhaps within a year in the future for the HDMI 1.3 upgrade (and quite possibly CB4 upgrade).

I certainly respect you vote and desire and its good that you communicated it here.

I simply can understand Theta's position from an economic standpoint. And fortunately, I don't use my CB3 for video switching, as I've got a CRT projector and use my Lumagen VisionPro HDP for that purpose, and HDCP encoded HD movies come out my video processor as a blank picture to comply with licensing requirements.

I also use a CRT PJ and external video processing, which is why I'm not at all interested in a simple HDMI switching card. This can be accomplished with any one of ~100 devices already on the market. This is why Theta's stance is so frustrating to me: They are using their resources to produce two HDMI cards, rather than focusing their efforts on a full-featured card with audio capabilities (which could presumably be brought to market faster than a pair of cards).

Axatax---did you catch Evelyn Sinclair's last post? I think, if I read it correctly, it laid the two-card plan rumors to rest.

Axatax---did you catch Evelyn Sinclair's last post? I think, if I read it correctly, it laid the two-card plan rumors to rest.

Yes, I read her last post, but didn't catch anything about foregoing the two card plan (even after second reading), although this seems to be implied. I hope this is the case.

I also use a CRT PJ with a monoprice HDMI switcher and a DCDA DVI to VGA transcoder (HDCP). and i'm NOT interested in a 1.2 video only card.

We have no garantee either that the sound coming from LPCM thru the CB3 will be much better than the compli thru the SS, but it will likely get rid of the gazillion cables i have behind the units. :eek:

Then why in the HELL are you posting in this topic if you don't own the product? Why don't you keep to the Casanova owner threads?
Perhaps you need to check the title of the thread? ;)

Perhaps you need to check the title of the thread? ;)

Theta's HDMI re the CB3 has no impact on you - a former Casanova owner, that's now discontinued. You've already expressed your dissatisfaction with theta over the Casanova issue and frankly many of us are tired of hearing about it. Its a dead issue. Your continued posting your displeasure in every Theta thread is very annoying and not constructive at all.

Theta's HDMI re the CB3 has no impact on you - a former Casanova owner, that's now discontinued. You've already expressed your dissatisfaction with theta over the Casanova issue and frankly many of us are tired of hearing about it. Its a dead issue. Your continued posting your displeasure in every Theta thread is very annoying and not constructive at all.
Noooo, yesterday I said I was glad I didn't get the CasaBlanca via the trade in when I read that Bailoff has said no HDMI until 2009. Re-read it.

Look, sorry to bring some reality to the "Theta lovefest", and according to some of you guys Theta can do no wrong. But the fact remains that I have a very legitimate viewpoint that Theta is slow on upgrades. And the threads asks, "Does Theta's failure to have HDMI impact..." and *MY* answer is YES!!! And people reading should see both viewpoints, not only those of you who kneel down before the Theta altar.

The CasaNova all things considered from price/value was probably the best piece of equipment I've owned.

I don't criticize you guys for having done the upgrade and or buying a CasaBlanca III outright, but I don't see the same courtesy in return. I realize that you guys, or most of you guys, made a rational decision that was best for you. And Steve, I fully understand your point that you'd rather have a "slow Theta" that stays in business longer term, than one who maybe makes a fatal mistake. I would want that too if I had sunk another 8K into their product!!! ;)...

...so that makes you biased on the one side of the coin, just like you claim I am biased and "annoying & unproductive" on the other side of the coin. But that doesn't make either of our opinions "unacceptable" vis-a-vis the question, "Does Theta Digital's Failure to Have HDMI Impact Whether You Want to Buy."

I'm happy you have fun listening to your CasaBlanca. :D As stated yesterday, I'm happy I didn't get stuck in another interim product or a "frankenstein solution". ;) Maybe Theta will surprise me...

So Esox50, are you telling us that if you had an absolute guarentee that Theta would have upgraded the CB3 to include HDMI 1.3 by say the end of 2007, that you would have done the Casanova upgrade program and paid the addtl $$$ to trade-in your Casanova for a CB3?

Or would you have griped that how could Theta make such a promise, and that you didn't believe them cause the Casanova ended up being discontinued not upgradable.

I find it unfathomable that you would ever buy another Theta product under any circumstance and that you solely participate in this thread to drag it down.

Funny to see this chatter on our beloved CBIII..

Guys, let's please keep some very important things in mind about Theta!

1. Fully Upgradeable Chassis for over 10 years !
2. They have never left a customer out in the cold with their Products like so many other companies have.
3. They have continued to produce products with Audio Qualities far up and above most others , maybe all others. We certainly think all others :)!
4. They have never sold their company out to a big holding company ( Ie. Classe)
5. They design, Engineer and Build all their products in Southern California not like most everyone else.
6. They support their products with knowledgable people, yes when you call the factory you get to speak with the people who work with the product everyday.
7. They support their dealers at a level we do not see from any other manufacturers.
8. Their fully upgradable chassis allows people who can spend from 8K-20K to get started with the CBIII and grow it over time. ( Who else does this ) No one we know !
9. In Side by Side tests, their audio quality smokes the competition. Yes I know this one will get challenged again and again, but we here actually do test it against almost every other processor out there. Find me a better one and I will tell you so.
10. With the future unknown with HDMI and new formats of Movies etc. We need a machine that can scale. Guess what , we have one - The Theta Casablanca III !!

Enjoy it now and enjoy it for a lifetime !!!

Craig

10. With the future unknown with HDMI and new formats of Movies etc. We need a machine that can scale. Guess what , we have one - The Theta Casablanca III !!

This sums it up pretty well.

And I'm sorry if I came off with a negative tone toward Steve B. or anyone else (and I understand his response, since I'm not a regular in this sub).

The tease here is that the CBIII is _scalable_ as you describe, but the updates are very slow in comming. While the CBIII is a great product, let's be realistic: it has been lagging behind the curve for quite some time (see DRC, Audyssey and co., etc.). Theta has been slow to adapt, and they (like many other specialty companies) have been caught by surpirse with the demand for HDMI.

Denon can design and deliver an entire _family_ of receivers in 1/4 of the time it takes Theta to deliver an HDMI input card for an existing (modular/expandable) architecture. Would I jump ship for a Denon? No. I'll wait patiently. But this is just my perspective on the CBIII HDMI situation. The CBIII is not a mystical device that is so high-tech or esoteric that the upgrade requires extensive examination or R&D. It's complexity pales in comparsion to a modern $1K receiver, and it's limitations are starting to show.

So Esox50, are you telling us that if you had an absolute guarentee that Theta would have upgraded the CB3 to include HDMI 1.3 by say the end of 2007, that you would have done the Casanova upgrade program and paid the addtl $$$ to trade-in your Casanova for a CB3?

Or would you have griped that how could Theta make such a promise, and that you didn't believe them cause the Casanova ended up being discontinued not upgradable.

I find it unfathomable that you would ever buy another Theta product under any circumstance and that you solely participate in this thread to drag it down.
Steve, as I said previously, I don't really want to get into the whole Nova thing. That being said, the scenario you described was one iteration I went through in my decision. That was, what is the point of this "upgrade" if it keeps me at basically where I'm at with only slightly better D/A quality? It didn't have many of the other things I wanted.

As far as your question of would I ever buy another Theta product, as I noted the CasaNova was a great value for what it was. I would have preferred to remain a life-long Theta customer if possible. They had built up tremendous loyalty with me, and as I had posted eons ago I was supposed to test the CasaNova upgrades for them!!! But anyway, back to the question, we are all enthusiasts who are after the same thing. I think Theta makes some great sounding products, but they are sooo slow on upgrades and they seem VERY disorganized and mis-managed from a business standpoint. That being said, if they had a product that had HDMI (which was only one of the issues that held me back) & EVERYTHING else I wanted on it upon purchase and not more promises, I would not hesitate to buy again if it had "Theta quality" sound.

The way I looked at it, it was 8K + another upgrade (maybe another 2-3K in the future) to get what I really wanted (again, HDMI, long promised room EQ, etc). And that didn't include any substantial upgrade to my D/A quality. So, one must weigh this vs. the value proposition from another company. And when you're talking an outlay of 10-11K to "maybe" get close to where I want to be with no promises and an unspecified future date...that was not something I wanted to commit to. There will be plenty of options in the 10-11K range soon enough, and I didn't want to be locked into any one company. One thing I learned was to never "bet on the come".

I'll add a little bit of commentary that to me would be a little alarming to me if I owned a CasaBlanca. I can tell you that Theta was divided in how to handle the Casanova. They didn't even have their story straight internally. I know this based on conversation I had with someone within the company. Then Theta made a business decision with regards to CasaNova, and alienated many people...but I understand the decision regardless of my opinion of how they handled it. Now we sit here almost two years later, and you have different stories again coming from within Theta, but now with regard to the HDMI for CasaBlanca. Evelyn herself said it was "embarrassing". Do you have any hope/confidence that they even know how to proceed at this point to get you guys to where you want to be with your CasaBlancas? Maybe you do, and that is your right to feel that way since they've come up big for their CasaBlanca owners in the past. But from where I'm coming from and my experience in a similar situation, albeit with a different product, I'm not very confident in Theta these days.

Finally, we are all entitled to our opinions on this matter based on our own experiences with Theta's products and people. I respect your opinion, and hope that you respect my opinion and where I'm coming from. For people seeking to answer the question posed by the OP, both of our opinions/commentaries and experiences are worth sharing with prospective buyers so that they understand precedent and history with this company.

Enjoy your CasaBlanca, as I know you do. :D

Esox50, I appreciate your economics decision not to take the Casanova trade-in to upgrade to the Casablanca 3. Us CB owners are in a totally different economic picture, being able to upgrade at reasonable cost. For you the outlay would have been much more substantial - especially if you didn't require more than the 5.1 channels provided by the Casanova. Now I understand your feedback from a positive perspective. Thanks.

Theta, like Halcro, is relying on 3rd party suppliers. That's the problem with predictions. But at least as deadlines come and go, there is a third party to blame!

For HDMI 1.3 chipsets, yes there is a dependency, but for the architecture Theta does not depend on any platform supplier like Halcro does (which relies on Vinci labs if I am not mistaken)


The tease here is that the CBIII is _scalable_ as you describe, but the updates are very slow in comming. While the CBIII is a great product, let's be realistic: it has been lagging behind the curve for quite some time (see DRC, Audyssey and co., etc.) Theta has been slow to adapt, and they (like many other specialty companies) have been caught by surpirse with the demand for HDMI.

Slow- of course- only that in the so called 'hi-end' Theta is not the only one. IMHO Room Correction (Phase or Time/Amplitude correction or whatever) is useful if done right- I feel jury is still out there on this- gets more complex to implement if one is tweaking with Xover slopes as offered by Theta.

Denon can design and deliver an entire _family_ of receivers in 1/4 of the time it takes Theta to deliver an HDMI input card for an existing (modular/expandable) architecture.

..and there will be customers who will jump on it. And there will be customers who will wait for it too :)

The CBIII is not a mystical device that is so high-tech or esoteric that the upgrade requires extensive examination or R&D. It's complexity pales in comparsion to a modern $1K receiver, and it's limitations are starting to show.

Every hi-end company is limited now thanks to HDMI marketing machine :-P. Actually Theta DOES need extensive examination for CB3 imho I am sure they would want to make CB4 architecturally better (all digital path) and different from Valis.

My $0.02

Cheers,
Kishore

Folks who are genuinely considering purchasing the Casablanca are clearly welcome here in this thread (that I started). I started this thread for the purpose of helping giving Theta meaningful feedback to consider re HDMI. And potential customers like you (not griping folks who bitch its too expensive or they got screwed in the past) give real helpful info to the folks at Theta.

I understand this is the $ 20.000+ Forum and therefore maybe not the right place.

A Casablanca with dreadnaught II combination is too expensive for me. Prices in the Netherlands are almost 50% higher on Theta products compared to US pricing.

But the Valis/Virtu combination is a set in which would be ideal for me. I have been following the progress on these products since october 2005.

Is the FAQhdmi on the Theta website still up to date regarding the specifications of the Valis/Virtu? Or could video processing (scaling and de-interlacing to 1080p) also become available for the Valis Music and Cinema Controller? Obviously my expectations on the Valis have increased in the last 18 months.

... could video processing (scaling and de-interlacing to 1080p) also become available for the Valis Music and Cinema Controller?

From Neil:

We will be updating some of the details in the FAQ but the information on Valis and Virtu is still fundamentally correct to the best of our knowledge.

We have internally discussed adding video processing to our audio processors many times over the last ten years. When we first considered it, outboard video processors were a significant part of the home theatre industry. One needed to have one to minimize the ugly bars magnified by a projector's size of image. These processors were boxes filled with digital signal processing chips running proprietary algorythms. By necessity, they were expensive and ran hot. The good ones that showed few visible artifacts sold for $12,000 to $50,000.

At that time we looked into partnering with one of the better video processing companies. In the end we came to the conclusion that adding this video option wasn't practical because of the size of the board necessary for this level of processing and that our end users would not all have the same video objectives. Thus making for an expensive option with a small market no matter what quality level we chose. The savings to the end user from having the audio and video processing in one chassis would have been far outweighed by the poor economy of scale.

There came a point in time about five years ago when this paradigm changed. Chip technology got to a point where, if made in mass quantity, one could run these large programs captive, on one or two fairly inexpensive dedicated chips. At about the same time, the first serious fixed pixel, flat panel TVs and projectors were being developed with the anticipation of a large market. All of these sets would need to scale video signals to their native resolution.

Within a few months, three of the best video processor companies were purchased by large chip companies and their processing programs were put on small attractively priced chip sets. Once these were designed into plasmas and projectors, the market for outboard scalers shrunk to about 10% of its former size. In fact, none of these companies now sell scaler boxes to consumers.

With this in mind, today, Theta could use one of these chip sets and build a scaler board. We would be using the same key parts as the television manufacturers but we would have to charge more because we buy parts in thousands while they buy parts in hundreds of thousands. Through our concern for performance, we could do a somewhat better job with these parts but some of this gain would be offset by the cabling necessary in moving the expanded signal to the projector or plasma while the TV's internal scaler does not have this issue. It concerned me that this would not lead to good value.

If we instead chose to scale at the highest quality level available and not use one of the fixed program chip sets, the cost would be very high as it is for the better stand alone scalers on the market today. No matter which of these paths we took, a large segment of our end users would feel left out. For this reason, at least for the present, I feel that we are serving our user base best by concentration on our core expertise in audio and passing an unprocessed, undistorted video signal to (in most cases) their plasma or projector and for the few who demand the very best video, to their outboard scaler.

That said, if our engineers find a truly better way, where we can offer a demonstratively better image at an equitable value, we will happily offer video processing.

Neil Sinclair

CB-III + Six Shooter only if I want to play HD DVD and Bluray?

Hi,
I have EMM Labs Switchman 3 already and my friend offered me very good price on CB-III with Extream DAC. Do I need to buy Six Shooter to play HD DVD and Bluray? Can I use with my Switchman 3?
Anyone compared Switchman 3 vs Six Shooter?

Thanks in advance for any suggestion.

The Six Shooter provides only two sets of multi-channel inputs, both sets single-ended, and one set balanced. And it integrates into your CB3 setup flawlessly
without having to use another remote - you don't even know its there. And at 2 grand retail its a heckava bargain.

What does the Switchman 3 retail for? I'm sure its a great sounding product and my bet is that both the Six Shooter and Switchman 3 sound comparable. But I haven't compared them.

If you had a Six Shooter, you would route each player's multi-channel analog into the two of multi-channel analog inputs, and you simply substitute the Switchman 3 and do the same. :D


CB-III + Six Shooter only if I want to play HD DVD and Bluray?

Hi,
I have EMM Labs Switchman 3 already and my friend offered me very good price on CB-III with Extream DAC. Do I need to buy Six Shooter to play HD DVD and Bluray? Can I use with my Switchman 3?
Anyone compared Switchman 3 vs Six Shooter?

Thanks in advance for any suggestion.

Actually Steve the Six shooter has 2 balanced or single ended inputs and 1 single ended only input. All THREE inputs are 5.1 or lower you choose. There is 1 5.1 balanced or single ended output.

After I posted I re-read your post and I see what you ment. Since one of the inputs is used by the CBIII you actually end up with 2 useable inputs. :) sorry for the confusion all on my part.



Ex-airforce

There is a data link from the CBIII to the Six Shooter to control volume. The EMM labs most likely will not have this or if it does it may not work with Theta gear. You will have to find out.

Since the Six shooter is relatively cheap, MSRP $2K, and offers 3 inputs and interfaces flawlessly with the CB III, I would be hard pressed to use any thing else. And the sonics of the CBIII are amazing too.

Here is a link to the Six shooter manual....
http://www.thetadigital.com/manuals/CB3%206%20Shooter%20OM%20Add.pdf

Anyone tried to use both the rca and balanced input (for input #1) for seperate gears ?

That would mean 3 useable Mch inputs.

Thanks all gentlemen.
1. If I wanna buy CBIII, I should buy Six Shooter.

2. Question (Sorry...if there was an answer in this thread already but I didn't read)

Are you sure that CBIII can be upgraded to have HDMI 1.3?

Thanks.....

Thanks Neil for your input

Thanks all gentlemen.
1. If I wanna buy CBIII, I should buy Six Shooter.

2. Question (Sorry...if there was an answer in this thread already but I didn't read)

Are you sure that CBIII can be upgraded to have HDMI 1.3?

Thanks.....
Yes, the HDMI 1.3 upgrade is under development. If you already have a SwitchmanIII it will work fine with the CBIII. I do not know how they compare. Before the Six Shooter existed, Theta used the Switchman for multi-channel music demos so I guess that tells you Theta's opinion of the SW3 is. What you gain with the Six Shooter is remote control and the ability to run more than 5.1 channels. I can hear the Six shooter power on when the CBIII does and you have volume control. The Panasonic Blu-ray player has 7.1 analog outs. I have two Six shooters and plan to buy the Panasonic player when Blu-ray sound tracks, hi-rez, come to market with 7.1 sound. If you only have a 5.1 set-up and the Six Shooter is equal in performance to the Switchman, you can sell the Switchman, buy the SS, and have money left over.

As a reminder, one needs 2 SS to to take advantage of a 7.1 analog input.

Can you just stack the SS? Do I need anything special to hook both up?

Bulldogger,
Thanks for your good info.. I'm using Lex. MC-8B now but very very impressed with CBIII sound.
I have to let MC-8B go!

Can you just stack the SS? Do I need anything special to hook both up?

The 2nd one must be reconfigured for the added channels.

Can you just stack the SS? Do I need anything special to hook both up?
There is a "jumper" in the second Six Shooter that allows it to control the channels past 5.1. With the second Six shooter, the inputs are not marked correctly. I have technically 9 channels but only use 8 or 7.1. With the Second Six shooter, the inputs marked Sub, left sur, and right surround are actually Sub= rear center, left sur= Left Ex channel, right sur= Right ex channel. I have the rear center set to phantom and am only using two speakers at the rear. I have been considering getting the Panasonic Blu-ray player as it has 7.1 analog outs. What I do now is use a Parasound CSE 6.1 expander. Remember those devices that came out to make older pre-pros compatible with Dolby Ex? I use one of those on my Toshiba HD-1 player 5.1 analog outs to get 8 channels out. The two rear channels are just the single rear center, copied so it's not really 7.1 but actually 6.1. Sounds a hell of a lot better at any rate.

There is a "jumper" in the second Six Shooter that allows it to control the channels past 5.1. With the second Six shooter, the inputs are not marked correctly. I have technically 9 channels but only use 8 or 7.1. With the Second Six shooter, the inputs marked Sub, left sur, and right surround are actually Sub= rear center, left sur= Left Ex channel, right sur= Right ex channel. I have the rear center set to phantom and am only using two speakers at the rear. I have been considering getting the Panasonic Blu-ray player as it has 7.1 analog outs. What I do now is use a Parasound CSE 6.1 expander. Remember those devices that came out to make older pre-pros compatible with Dolby Ex? I use one of those on my Toshiba HD-1 player 5.1 analog outs to get 8 channels out. The two rear channels are just the single rear center, copied so it's not really 7.1 but actually 6.1. Sounds a hell of a lot better at any rate.

Can you use the two sets of multi-channel inputs on the second Six Shooter to input two additional multi-channel analog sources.

Can you use the two sets of multi-channel inputs on the second Six Shooter to input two additional multi-channel analog sources.
If you are asking if you can run 4 total multi-channels sources, no. You can run 12 channels. 12 channels for three inputs, one for the CBIII and two for multi-channel sources. For example, the CBIII, HD-DVD player with 7.1 out and Blu-ray player with 7.1. analog outs which is what I plan to do.

So what is the general consensus, for someone with an 8.1 setup, is it really worth the price of 2 six shooters to run analog outs vs digital?

So what is the general consensus, for someone with an 8.1 setup, is it really worth the price of 2 six shooters to run analog outs vs digital?

If your primary goal is TRUE HD, DTS MA, etc from HD DVD / Blu Ray soundtracks, the analog route is a waste of money....old technology.

HDMI is here and now and in the next 6 months there will be even more choices of processors. Remember, with analog, you get no digital post processing (THX, time alignment, etc) unless you go through a A/D converter followed by another D/A (which would defeat the purpose of the 6 shooter anyways).

If your primary goal is TRUE HD, DTS MA, etc from HD DVD / Blu Ray soundtracks, the analog route is a waste of money....old technology.

HDMI is here and now and in the next 6 months there will be even more choices of processors. Remember, with analog, you get no digital post processing (THX, time alignment, etc) unless you go through a A/D converter followed by another D/A (which would defeat the purpose of the 6 shooter anyways).

Problem solved a.s.a. you can use a processor with dig-IN and dig-OUT connected to externals audiophile dacs/preamps/amps.

I would just like to say that the time alignment as thebland says is really time delay and is handled in the setup menu of the HD DVD /Blueray player doing the 5.1 decoding of the Dolby true HD. Currently DTS master audio is not available for internal or external decoding. Soon it may happen in the Panasonic BR player time will tell. So there is no need for the added A to D and D to A conversion steps.

For those using the Theta gear, as this thread is intended to inquire about, as of now this is the only way to enjoy these limited loss less audio sound tracks. In time Theta will offer an HDMI 1.3 implementation. IMO sometime in 2008. Until then the six shooter and the 5.1 analogs works quite nicely IMO. And for music it is sweet indeed :)

I'm a firm advocate in doing something right AND well. I also try to have to only do it once. I know that Theta gear is at the top of the performance hill and so they will not be the first out of the gate. Those that are first out usually are not the best and if they want to be better have to change or re-do which is not always the best thing for their customers cost wise.

There are many here who are driven to have the latest gear regardless of it's performance. Often they are having to sell it for the next new thing as the older one was not as good as they were led to believe. This to me is expensive and wrong. But if you have nothing but money to burn then by all means knock yourself out. To each his own.

All to often those who have to have the latest and greatest are victims of the marketing hype or the " in theory it is better". I take a different tact. While in theory it SHOULD be better in practice it in fact may be no better or even worse. This happens more often then you would think.

I have not found Theta gear to ever sound worse than the model being replaced. This is comforting for me and my customers.

Everyone realizes that it will be a while for Theta to bring out new technologies but Theta is worth the wait. Until then there are very satisfactory options in Theta gear that more than get the job done.

......All to often those who have to have the latest and greatest are victims of the marketing hype or the " in theory it is better".
.

or....it's just all they want:>)

So what is the general consensus, for someone with an 8.1 setup, is it really worth the price of 2 six shooters to run analog outs vs digital?
For me it is without any doubt for my set-up. If you are going to use a Theta CBIII with more than 6 channels you have to use two Six Shooters anyway. You can not just use a single Six Shooter on the first six channels and run the other channels directly to the amps. It will be difficult to balance the channels if you try to use a single unit. That is what forced me to buy two. The Six Shooter is a level above any of the surround processor that I have tried for multi-channel music. It is an ugly little black box but you can not touch the sound quality for under 5k with a two channel analog pre-amp so two for 4k is a bargain to me. The EMM labs Switchman is likely just as good as the Six Shooter and those sell used for about 3.5k. That is the the only other 6 channel pre-amp that I would use. My dealer was able to give me a discount and I was able to buy two Six Shooter for less and have wireless remote control through the CBIII. For movies with the new formats, I think the best way will be HDMI into the CBIII. My Six Shooters though allow me to enjoy the new hi-rez Dolby formats until Theta has HDMI inputs . I do bass managment and speaker delay in the player. I still plan to keep the Six Shooters for SACD and DVD-A.However, if a great sounding univeral player, with 7.1 analog outs AND on-board Dolby PPLL II so I could expand 5.1 tracks to 7.1 came to market, it is unlikely that I would upgrade to HDMI in the Theta.

Bulldogger:

Very compelling

Hey Steve,
I sure don't want to hi jack your thread, especially since the topic is so worthwhile. But all the Theta users are here so I would like to ask: What interconnects are you guys using with your CBIIIs? I just ordered a set of Cardas Quads but plan to upgrade to Golden Cross sometime in the future.

"It is an ugly little black box but you can not touch the sound quality for under 5k with a two channel analog pre-amp so two for 4k is a bargain to me."

How is that a bargain? It is not 4k for the two Six Shooters it is $4k plus another what $7k or more for the box to control the Six shooters.

It makes no sense that Theta didn't put controls on the Six Shooter, that would have greatly expanded its potential market.

Shawn

"It is an ugly little black box but you can not touch the sound quality for under 5k with a two channel analog pre-amp so two for 4k is a bargain to me."

How is that a bargain? It is not 4k for the two Six Shooters it is $4k plus another what $7k or more for the box to control the Six shooters.

It makes no sense that Theta didn't put controls on the Six Shooter, that would have greatly expanded its potential market.

Shawn

I can just see it now. My Lexicon sounds as good as the best on multi-channel
audio thanks to its Six Shooter. But it only has manual controls, not remote, and what a pain in the butt - despite its great sound I'd never buy it again! Theta should have sued Lexicon to obtain proprietary information necessary to ensure that their Six Shooter was fully compatible with Lexicon's products. And Theta had no business raising its price on the Six Shooter to $3,500 - heck, it should have been easy to do this at little extra cost.

Shawn, when are you gonna get into the audio and home theater business so we can get some good deals from you? I can't wait!!

Hey Steve,
I sure don't want to hi jack your thread, especially since the topic is so worthwhile. But all the Theta users are here so I would like to ask: What interconnects are you guys using with your CBIIIs? I just ordered a set of Cardas Quads but plan to upgrade to Golden Cross sometime in the future.

Both myself and Bulldogger use exclusively Granite Audio cabling with our Theta gear!!! I understand another forum member has ordered a Six Shooter and is right now demoing some Granite Audio cabling as well!!!. I know how to get good deals but that needs to be done by Private Message off the forum.

"My Lexicon sounds as good as the best on multi-channel audio thanks to its Six Shooter. But it only has manual controls, not remote, and what a pain in the butt - despite its great sound I'd never buy it again!....... And Theta had no business raising its price on the Six Shooter to $3,500 - heck, it should have been easy to do this at little extra cost."

What are you talking about?

I said Theta should have put a volume control and input selector on the Six Shooter. That way they could have sold it as a 6 channel analog pre-amp to those that wanted it. In other words expand the market from the minority of CB3 owners that want it to also include those that look at things like using a McCormack 6 channel pre-amp or the Switchman...etc...etc.

Like I said the Six Shooter is not a 'bargain' at 2k. It is not possible for a Six Shooter to be purchased for $2k and used.... it has no controls on it. You need to spend many thousands of dollars more on a CB3 to act as nothing more then a remote control for the Six Shooter. That is Dumb..... dumb... dumb... unless of course you are a dealer who gets to make the money on selling the 'remote control' for the Six Shooter.

"Theta should have sued Lexicon to obtain proprietary information necessary to ensure that their Six Shooter was fully compatible with Lexicon's products. "

What does Lexicon have to do with this? Are you really that insecure you can't handle anyone making a comment about Theta without lashing out?

You don't see the greater sales potential Theta could have had for the Six Shooter if they had simply added even just IR remote control to the Six Shooter? That would let them then turn around and sell the Six Shooter to more then just CB owners? Remember, it is in your best interest for Theta to actually make products people want to buy.

And by the way... if Theta had wanted to integrate the Six Shooter with a Lexicon (or many other pre-pros) there would be no need for them to sue for the information. All the info needed is right on most companies web sites.

Shawn

"My Lexicon sounds as good as the best on multi-channel audio thanks to its Six Shooter. But it only has manual controls, not remote, and what a pain in the butt - despite its great sound I'd never buy it again!....... And Theta had no business raising its price on the Six Shooter to $3,500 - heck, it should have been easy to do this at little extra cost."

What are you talking about?

I said Theta should have put a volume control and input selector on the Six Shooter. That way they could have sold it as a 6 channel analog pre-amp to those that wanted it. In other words expand the market from the minority of CB3 owners that want it to also include those that look at things like using a McCormack 6 channel pre-amp or the Switchman...etc...etc.

Like I said the Six Shooter is not a 'bargain' at 2k. It is not possible for a Six Shooter to be purchased for $2k and used.... it has no controls on it. You need to spend many thousands of dollars more on a CB3 to act as nothing more then a remote control for the Six Shooter. That is Dumb..... dumb... dumb... unless of course you are a dealer who gets to make the money on selling the 'remote control' for the Six Shooter.

"Theta should have sued Lexicon to obtain proprietary information necessary to ensure that their Six Shooter was fully compatible with Lexicon's products. "

What does Lexicon have to do with this? Are you really that insecure you can't handle anyone making a comment about Theta without lashing out?

You don't see the greater sales potential Theta could have had for the Six Shooter if they had simply added even just IR remote control to the Six Shooter? That would let them then turn around and sell the Six Shooter to more then just CB owners? Remember, it is in your best interest for Theta to actually make products people want to buy.

And by the way... if Theta had wanted to integrate the Six Shooter with a Lexicon (or many other pre-pros) there would be no need for them to sue for the information. All the info needed is right on most companies web sites.

Shawn

I was makin' fun of your rediculous posting and I still am. As I said, why don't you go into the audio manufacturing business so you can give us some fantastic products at low low prices. I can't wait.

A volume control on the Six Shooter is not necessary for Theta CB3 owners and it would add to the cost. Same for the input selector. Theta has bargain priced the Six Shooter for use with its own gear, not someone else's. Theta has integrated the Six Shooter to work with the CB3, and into the CB3 proprietary software/firmwave, to work without need for manual controls. Odds are that few wouldn't want it without some sort of remote control - and for that the cost of
designing it to work with other surround processors is prohibitive. Except in your mind of course.

"I was makin' fun of your rediculous posting and I still am."

Good, demonstrates your total lack of objectivity.

"A volume control on the Six Shooter is not necessary for Theta CB3 owners and it would add to the cost. Same for the input selector."

Hardware costs maybe $5 in parts (literally) to add the IR receiver. Hardware wise everything else needed is already there. It is already microprocessor controlled...etc...etc.

And again... the point is if the Six Shooter had any sort of controls on it it would have a greater potential market. If Theta ended up selling 10x the number of Six Shooters they could potentially sell it for *less* then what they sell it for now. Economies of scale and all that.

Instead they ended up building a niche expansion box for a niche processor. No wonder they are such a small company....

"and for that the cost of designing it to work with other surround processors is prohibitive. "

That was your suggestion, not mine.

"Except in your mind of course."

I am *quite* sure I know more about what it takes to integrate equipment from differing manufacturers to work together then you do. (http://www.switch-box.com/)

Shawn

I was makin' fun of your rediculous posting and I still am. As I said, why don't you go into the audio manufacturing business so you can give us some fantastic products at low low prices. I can't wait.

A volume control on the Six Shooter is not necessary for Theta CB3 owners and it would add to the cost. Same for the input selector. Theta has bargain priced the Six Shooter for use with its own gear, not someone else's. Theta has integrated the Six Shooter to work with the CB3, and into the CB3 proprietary software/firmwave, to work without need for manual controls. Odds are that few wouldn't want it without some sort of remote control - and for that the cost of
designing it to work with other surround processors is prohibitive. Except in your mind of course.

Shawn's point was pretty simple--you can't discuss whether something is a "bargain" in a vacuum. It's one thing to say that the 6-shooter "only" costs $2,000. But if the price of operating that device is the purchase of a unit costing many times $2,000, then you really haven't been able to use the device for $2,000, have you?

As for designing the piece to work with its own gear, "not someone else's," is that at all intelligent? Do you really think Theta is wise to restrict its market only to those with existing Theta pieces? Doesn't Theta make a DVD player with an HDMI output? Whose gear is that supposed to work with?

Nick :cool:

........... Theta has bargain priced the Six Shooter for use with its own gear, not someone else's. Theta has integrated the Six Shooter to work with the CB3, and into the CB3 proprietary software/firmwave, to work without need for manual controls. Odds are that few wouldn't want it without some sort of remote control - and for that the cost of
designing it to work with other surround processors is prohibitive. Except in your mind of course.

So the SS will only work with the CB? .......and NOT with other pre/pros?

Guys I've been following this thread and, in fact, all threads pertaining to Theta equipment. Let me say first that I go back to the Theta Data and Gen III days so I'm not a newbie here by any means. But something needs to be said right now. We tend to get way too defensive when someone challenges our ownership, our expertise, our point of view, or even Theta's approach to marketing and design. Most of the time, even I feel like I'm walking on eggshells when making a comment on a Theta thread. It just doesn't say much about us as a group if we can't take criticism of the equipment we own, whether we view it as constructive or not. Smacking people around because they happen to disagree with us or ordering people off the thread because they're not Theta owners is first, against the intent of the forum, and secondly, just not what I would expect from a group of seasoned audio/video - philes. It just makes us come off as a condescending clique who think our s--t don't stink because we happen to own some AV gear that a lot of folks can't afford. Well whoop de doo! That doesn't do any of us any good and it certainly isin't doing Theta any good because rather than attracting people to Theta, my guess is we're pushing them away. nuff said.

"So the SS will only work with the CB? .......and NOT with other pre/pros?"

Yes, and it must be used with a CB3. It can not be used by itself stand alone.

Shawn

Guys I've been following this thread and, in fact, all threads pertaining to Theta equipment. Let me say first that I go back to the Theta Data and Gen III days so I'm not a newbie here by any means. But something needs to be said right now. We tend to get way too defensive when someone challenges our ownership, our expertise, our point of view, or even Theta's approach to marketing and design. Most of the time, even I feel like I'm walking on eggshells when making a comment on a Theta thread. It just doesn't say much about us as a group if we can't take criticism of the equipment we own, whether we view it as constructive or not. Smacking people around because they happen to disagree with us or ordering people off the thread because they're not Theta owners is first, against the intent of the forum, and secondly, just not what I would expect from a group of seasoned audio/video - philes. It just makes us come off as a condescending clique who think our s--t don't stink because we happen to own some AV gear that a lot of folks can't afford. Well whoop de doo! That doesn't do any of us any good and it certainly isin't doing Theta any good because rather than attracting people to Theta, my guess is we're pushing them away. nuff said.

True. Same is true for non-Theta owners smacking Theta around.

I stick to my opinion that Theta designed the Six Shooter for CB3 owners, they kept the cost down and quality up, and that for the Six Shooter to be a successful product financially to non-Theta t, too. That's not smacking Shawn - that's my opinion.

Sure, it would be great to see a Six Shooter like Shawn would like. But companies must face economic realities to stay in business - look how many small companies have gone out of business in the AV field.

I'm sorry Steve. I have a lot of respect for you. But this has less to do with any specific incident and more to do with a pervasive attitude among Theta owners that we're entitiled to smack people around ....,just because we happen to own Theta equipmmet. And the wierd thing is, we honestly think we're serving Theta's best interest in doing so. I'm asking that we cut the hoity toity attitudes period and get back to the business of stepping up and explaining to people why we own this equipment without chopping their heads off when they disagree.

Against my better judgment, there's something I'm compelled to say. I never considered any of the posts here as "smacking" anyone around--there's an implication there that doesn't sit well with me. I'll refrain from further comment on what I did consider them.

Nick :cool:

I don't know...Theta's stuff is good. But $20K for a pair of 6 shooters / processor so that you can play DVD-A & SACD for music and then bypass the great DACs / post processing / etc so as to play the new HD tracks for Blu Ray / HD DVD (and no HDMI) seems a step backwards to me and stiff on the price point. For that, I agree with Shawn, there should be an ability to control it remotely. For $20K, You could buy a state of the art processor AND a state of the art multi channel analog pre-amp and simply use a manual switchbox.

I look forward to seeing a new reference processor from Theta. The old CBIII does seem quite expensive and cumbersome for todays digital world.

deja vu!

I don't know...Theta's stuff is good. But $20K for a pair of 6 shooters / processor so that you can play DVD-A & SACD for music and then bypass the great DACs / post processing / etc so as to play the new HD tracks for Blu Ray / HD DVD (and no HDMI) seems a step backwards to me and stiff on the price point. For that, I agree with Shawn, there should be an ability to control it remotely. For $20K, You could buy a state of the art processor AND a state of the art multi channel analog pre-amp and simply use a manual switchbox.

I look forward to seeing a new reference processor from Theta. The old CBIII does seem quite expensive and cumbersome for todays digital world.

Jeff, I think you misunderstood. The Six Shooter integrates with the CB3 flawlessly and works by remote. What Shawn wants is a Six Shooter with manual controls that can work with other companies surround processors - Shawn hasn't advocated the remote feature of the Six Shooter with other companies surround processors.

...more to do with a pervasive attitude among Theta owners that we're entitiled to smack people around ....,just because we happen to own Theta equipmmet.

When I bought my CBII, my dealer promised me I could smack as many people I wanted to around, othewise I was gonna buy a yamaha receiver.

My CB3 and Six Shooter will smack a double whammy compared to most others. And the CB3 alone will triple whammy the Lex and Halcros. HAAAAAAAAA!!!

now there's the old Steve.

now there's the old Steve.

I wish it was the old Steve. I'd be a lot lighter!!!!&&&& :eek:

Oh c'mon Steve get with the times, you know that 10 year old design is an antiquated piece of sh!t not worthy of a state of the art theater....:D You know as well as I do that if Theta can't get cable obxes to work with it, HDMI is going to be a disaster (if they ever do really make it). John's left the company and I am sure there are many others jumping ship as well Sonically, it bows to the Halcro and Lexicon. But hell, the CB box is older than my 5th grader!!!:D:D

Oh c'mon Steve get with the times, you know that 10 year old design is an antiquated piece of sh!t not worthy of a state of the art theater....:D You know as well as I do that if Theta can't get cable obxes to work with it, HDMI is going to be a disaster (if they ever do really make it). John's left the company and I am sure there are many others jumping ship as well Sonically, it bows to the Halcro and Lexicon. But hell, the CB box is older than my 5th grader!!!:D:D

The old Jeff is back.

Hea, your Halcro is a great piece for the buck. I'm gonna be in Motown early May so you're gonna have ta let me sample your room. Me and Mark Burnstein.

I am sure Theta will be making changes in the CB for HDMI and in consideration of what you are discussing. No question about it. John didn't jump ship - he just got a better job and better pay, thats what folks do. Or do have some specifics that I don't?

I don't disagree with you. The CB has been a stellar performer and wonderful platford. But now its time for Theta to make some changes. And I'm sure they will. And they will likely allow us CB owners to upgrade for reasonable cost, even if it includes making drastic internal changes. I ain't worried about it.

As for Lex being better sounding - give me a break. You're no longer a Lex owner so you don't have to sing that song anymore. And we don't have to get into it re Theta v. Halcro - the Halcro gives a lot of features and performance at its price and
whether the Theta is better sonically in a given system depends upon the room, components and what you listen to. The Halcro is a great piece and I personally think Theta to stay competetive will have to consider the competition and price within range.

Steve,

"What Shawn wants is a Six Shooter with manual controls that can work with other companies surround processors -"

I do not want this at all, I already have analog bypass, multichannel input with full post processing as well as LPCM over HMDI. (IOW where you might be in a few years time.... ;) If I wanted to use a Six Shooter in my system I would spend a few hours analyzing the protocol of the Six Shooter and write custom software for my Universal Translator to integrate the Six Shooter with something like a DC-2. That would probably give you a stroke though...

I just think Theta would have been much smarter to have built the Six Shooter this way as they would have had a far larger potential market. Because you are right small companies have to be careful with what they build or they won't be around in todays market. Building add on boxes that work with a very small percentage of the market isn't too swift not when it could have easily been built to be usable to a much larger market.

Shawn

now there's the old Steve.
And the same old Lexicon owners http://www.smr-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=6 Let stop kidding. This is not about how good Theta is. Shawn and Jeff both absolutely hate Theta. . I think if most here traced when The Bland started attacking Theta it would all make sense. When the owners of the company know you by first name and that you hate their company?, I mean let's just drop the BS.

"It is an ugly little black box but you can not touch the sound quality for under 5k with a two channel analog pre-amp so two for 4k is a bargain to me."

How is that a bargain? It is not 4k for the two Six Shooters it is $4k plus another what $7k or more for the box to control the Six shooters.

It makes no sense that Theta didn't put controls on the Six Shooter, that would have greatly expanded its potential market.

Shawn

It is a bargain because of the sound quality. The only other analog pre-amp that compares is the EMM Labs SM3 which retails for 7k. For a Theta owner the Six Shooter is a bargain. The analog bypass on the Lexicon is inferior to the Six Shooter so comparison are not apples to apples. In fact, you be better off buying a Emm labs unit than using the Lexicon. Lexicon should have just reduced the cost and not even included a bypass. Well I guess it's suiutable for some.

And the same old Lexicon owners http://www.smr-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=6 Let stop kidding. This is not about how good Theta is. Shawn and Jeff both absolutely hate Theta. . I think if most here traced when The Bland started attacking Theta it would all make sense. When the owners of the company know you by first name and that you hate their company?, I mean let's just drop the BS.

Hate? How do you hate stuff? I think you are looking at things here too seriously. I enjoy crapping on Theta. I enjoy crapping on Halcro (usless scaler, delayed LPCM, the worst GUI). In fact, I like to crap on all equipment as there are no perfect pieces - particularly my own (you should read all the complaints I had of my HD-A1 / A2 piece of crap HD DVD players).

Look around the forum, I 'attack' every kind of equipment. Simple. I never 'fall in love with equipment becuase it is always imperfect and improved on each year from purchase. You, ironically, seem to fall under your sig when it comes to Theta:

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.

Honestly, you seem blinded and a bit defensive at any negativity directed towards Theta whether it is truthful or not...

So, when you crap on Halcro, Shawn, complains about Theta, and Steve craps on all others other than Theta, the appropriate response is to laugh or jokingly throw some crap back......but not to take things so personally. Steve, has seemed to lighten up quite a bit as of late...you should to. Who cares! I know Theta isn't as bad as I make it out to be, its surely a fine piece... Remember, this is not a political site to get feathers ruffled at, its a hobbiest site....so relax;).

The old Jeff is back.

Hea, your Halcro is a great piece for the buck. I'm gonna be in Motown early May so you're gonna have ta let me sample your room. Me and Mark Burnstein.

I am sure Theta will be making changes in the CB for HDMI and in consideration of what you are discussing. No question about it. John didn't jump ship - he just got a better job and better pay, thats what folks do. Or do have some specifics that I don't?

I don't disagree with you. The CB has been a stellar performer and wonderful platford. But now its time for Theta to make some changes. And I'm sure they will. And they will likely allow us CB owners to upgrade for reasonable cost, even if it includes making drastic internal changes. I ain't worried about it.

As for Lex being better sounding - give me a break. You're no longer a Lex owner so you don't have to sing that song anymore. And we don't have to get into it re Theta v. Halcro - the Halcro gives a lot of features and performance at its price and
whether the Theta is better sonically in a given system depends upon the room, components and what you listen to. The Halcro is a great piece and I personally think Theta to stay competetive will have to consider the competition and price within range.

The old Jeff never left!

As I was reprimanding Bulldogger, this whole Theta vs Halcro vs Lexicon thing is funny and pretty much a joke. I laugh at the Halcro Barbs (many true) and others here should look at my remarks with similar disregard. All are reference pieces so nothing to get so defensive about.


If you're coming to Detroit, let me know when and I'll certainly have you over to personally crap on my Halcro!:D

I haven't even had a chance to get Mark over yet, so it may be a good opportunity. I hope you like red wines!

Hate? How do you hate stuff? I think you are looking at things here too seriously. I enjoy crapping on Theta. I enjoy crapping on Halcro (usless scaler, delayed LPCM, the worst GUI). In fact, I like to crap on all equipment as there are no perfect pieces - particularly my own (you should read all the complaints I had of my HD-A1 / A2 piece of crap HD DVD players).

;).
BS, you have clear biases in favor of whatever brand you happen to own. Like most people in fact .

The old Jeff never left!

As I was reprimanding Bulldogger, this whole Theta vs Halcro vs Lexicon thing is funny and pretty much a joke.
You can't reprimand me. I think you know by know that I do not take you that seriously. If you don't then you should. I can not take anyone seriously for matters on audio that would spend 10k on a pre/pro and then use it with 600.00 speakers.

BS, you have clear biases in favor of whatever brand you happen to own. Like most people in fact .

Most people do not turn over equipment on a regular basis. I do.

I am only biased by what I currently own as at the time I purchased it, I considered it the best for my system.

You are wrong about that. I could care less about others' comments about my equipment. A piece, by itself, does little to the sound one hears. Put a CBIII or Halcro in a non dedicated space, no DSP, no EQ, etc and it would not nearly sound as good as it would in a room like mine, Art's, etc... It is part of a chain and the dedicated room is the most important link (as is DSP, EQ and acoustical analysis and treatment). I have been in this hobby too long to believe otherwise. I have had many systems in non -dedicated rooms and know the wha they impart on the sound. Hell, how can you even pressurize the bass?!

Hate? How do you hate stuff? I think you are looking at things here too seriously. I enjoy crapping on Theta. I enjoy crapping on Halcro (usless scaler, delayed LPCM, the worst GUI). In fact, I like to crap on all equipment as there are no perfect pieces - particularly my own (you should read all the complaints I had of my HD-A1 / A2 piece of crap HD DVD players).

Look around the forum, I 'attack' every kind of equipment. Simple. I never 'fall in love with equipment becuase it is always imperfect and improved on each year from purchase. You, ironically, seem to fall under your sig when it comes to Theta:

Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.

Honestly, you seem blinded and a bit defensive at any negativity directed towards Theta whether it is truthful or not...

So, when you crap on Halcro, Shawn, complains about Theta, and Steve craps on all others other than Theta, the appropriate response is to laugh or jokingly throw some crap back......but not to take things so personally. Steve, has seemed to lighten up quite a bit as of late...you should to. Who cares! I know Theta isn't as bad as I make it out to be, its surely a fine piece... Remember, this is not a political site to get feathers ruffled at, its a hobbiest site....so relax;).

....I would go along with thebland in so much that people should relax a little more. We don't want the forum to get all sectarian or anything! :) I happen to like Theta, Lexicon and Halcro but I really have no time for feathers UNCLEAN!! :p

I will say with respect to the link to Shawns post at smr-forums that Bulldogger included that starting a thread with a "poll" like that on the day you join a forum is a tad childish no matter what brand you are talking about.

Most people do not turn over equipment on a regular basis. I do.

I am only biased by what I currently own as at the time I purchased it, I considered it the best for my system.

You are wrong about that. I could care less about others' comments about my equipment. A piece, by itself, does little to the sound one hears. Put a CBIII or Halcro in a non dedicated space, no DSP, no EQ, etc and it would not nearly sound as good as it would in a room like mine, Art's, etc... It is part of a chain and the dedicated room is the most important link (as is DSP, EQ and acoustical analysis and treatment). I have been in this hobby too long to believe otherwise. I have had many systems in non -dedicated rooms and know the wha they impart on the sound. Hell, how can you even pressurize the bass?!
sure what you say is true all things being equal. But in an equally treated room, superior speakers and electronics will perform better. You can have both. Stop being a tight wad and buy some Genelecs. Seems like the ideal speakers for your set-up. I know you got the cash.

I like the Genelecs. I heard them at CEDIA a few years ago. No different than what I own (though I would like the extra rack space as they are active and I wouldn't need all those amplifiers). Perhaps some day when they are revised to a new level of performance, I'll bite.

"It is a bargain because of the sound quality. The only other analog pre-amp that compares is the EMM Labs SM3 which retails for 7k."

And to say a Six Shooter is a $2k pre-amp is wrong. One can't go and buy it and use it for $2k. That was my point. It costs considerably more then the SM3 to actually be able to use a Six Shooter because it *must* be paired with a CB3.

You yourself said if Theta added new features to the CB3 you might not bother upgrading because you like the Six Shooter so much. Wouldn't you prefer then to be able to use the Six Shooter alone and not need a what $10k box just sitting there to do nothing more then be a remote control for the Six Shooter? If you can't see the utility, and greater potential market, in having a box like the Six Shooter be able to be used alone you really need to take a step back.

"And the same old Lexicon owners http://www.smr-forums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=6 Let stop kidding."

You do know that post was made as a joke on that forum before the forum was even online as we were testing the new forum software... right? Must have really struck a nerve though since you just love to keep bringing it up. If the shoe fits....

"Shawn and Jeff both absolutely hate Theta. ."

Hate? Nahh, I am just in awe that a company can make what I see as so many dumb choices and still manage to stay around at least till this point. I guess when you have a killer markup and invest little in your products.....

"The analog bypass on the Lexicon is inferior to the Six Shooter so comparison are not apples to apples. In fact, you be better off buying a Emm labs unit than using the Lexicon. Lexicon should have just reduced the cost and not even included a bypass. Well I guess it's suiutable for some."

I am not using analog bypass. I am using LPCM over HDMI. I guess the DAC/analog line stage/sound of a $500 source is suitable for some.....

Shawn

"I will say with respect to the link to Shawns post at smr-forums that Bulldogger included that starting a thread with a "poll" like that on the day you join a forum is a tad childish no matter what brand you are talking about."

Actually it was the day the new forum software had started being tested where we had to create new accounts on the new server/forum. I have been a member of SMR forums about 8 or 10 years and know Stuart M Robinson (SMR) since the early 90s from our CEAUDIO days.

Like I said it was posted as a joke, which was a result of a long protracted thread here where some Theta *dealer* was telling people that LPCM over HDMI was an *analog* signal and therfor no different then using a Six Shooter.

Shawn

If you're coming to Detroit, let me know when and I'll certainly have you over to personally crap on my Halcro!:D

I haven't even had a chance to get Mark over yet, so it may be a good opportunity. I hope you like red wines!

I ain't gonna crap on you, your Halcro or your room. Or its sound.
And I've never crapped on the Halcro.

Though you (Jeff) early on came on seemingly hating Theta, more recently I think you've shown perhaps more open mindedness than we had given you credit for, when you bought a Halcro. You based that decision on sound quality in your system, feature set, and price. If Theta had a current processor meeting that I think you would have seriously considered that. Halcro met your needs and financial considerations at this time. Now in a few years that may change.

My niece gets her PhD at Bowling Green on May 4th so I'll be in Detroit with Mr. Burnstein on May 5th. Keep your schedule free. I'll private message you later on this.

"I will say with respect to the link to Shawns post at smr-forums that Bulldogger included that starting a thread with a "poll" like that on the day you join a forum is a tad childish no matter what brand you are talking about."

Actually it was the day the new forum software had started being tested where we had to create new accounts on the new server/forum. I have been a member of SMR forums about 8 or 10 years and know Stuart M Robinson (SMR) since the early 90s from our CEAUDIO days.

Like I said it was posted as a joke, which was a result of a long protracted thread here where some Theta *dealer* was telling people that LPCM over HDMI was an *analog* signal and therfor no different then using a Six Shooter.

Shawn

Hi Shawn,

Thank you for the clarification but I hope you can appreciate that without the back story, if someone were to read the thread as it is written it could come across as a childish topic only serving to stir up trouble. Having said that, it would be equally silly for someone to have gotten all bent out of shape over it and to call the person who posted the thread "childish" Now that really would be sad! ;)

Some of the criticism of Theta is fairly legitimate and I agree that the absence of HDMI remains a concern. However, I am satisfied that they will introduce a HDMI solution this year and that it will be a complete solution including audio. Now, if for some reason Theta were unable to provide HDMI this year then I would think that very, very hard to explain and I am about as technical as a push broom.

[QUOTE=sfoggYou do know that post was made as a joke on that forum before the forum was even online as we were testing the new forum software... right? Must have really struck a nerve though since you just love to keep bringing it up. If the shoe fits....

it's suiutable for some."

I am not using analog bypass. I am using LPCM over HDMI. I guess the DAC/analog line stage/sound of a $500 source is suitable for some.....

Shawn[/QUOTE]
No, nerve struck. For the record, I do not take you seriously either. It's been a long time since JBL was considered high-end. I do not know if homemade speakers using JBL drivers like the ones you are using have ever, been considered high fidelity. So maybe I should create a poll on how stupid do you have to be to use a plus 10K processor with 600.00 speakers or homemade one like you use? The fact that you do not use analog preamps means they have no value to you. So who the hell would consider your assement of their value?

[QUOTE=sfogg Must have really struck a nerve though since you just love to keep bringing it up.
I am not using analog bypass. I am using LPCM over HDMI. I guess the DAC/analog line stage/sound of a $500 source is suitable for some.....

Shawn[/QUOTE]
Actually the reports I am getting are that the Toshibe HD-DVD player actually sounds bettter with analog bypass through the MC12 than running it internally :D? So maybe you should answer that question.

"For the record, I do not take you seriously either."

Funny then how you always feel so compelled to try and discredit me by posting jokes I've made or by trying to attack me instead of actually having a discussion. Ad Hominem attacks are a logical fallacy, they are not an effect response. Funny how you and Steve keep falling back to them, can't come up with a real response?

"So who the hell would consider your assement of their value?"

Anyone that can perform basic mathematics.

A $2k box that requires a $7k+ box to control it is not a bargain compared to a $6k pre-amp.

Shawn

Bulldogger, '...the reports I'm getting suggest analog.........'

Give it up. You're sounding like a child.

Some of the criticism of Theta is fairly legitimate and I agree that the absence of HDMI remains a concern. However, I am satisfied that they will introduce a HDMI solution this year and that it will be a complete solution including audio. Now, if for some reason Theta were unable to provide HDMI this year then I would think that very, very hard to explain and I am about as technical as a push broom.

All we can do is speculate, so I propose we add interest to the speculation.

I will bet $500 right now that, within one year from this date, there will not be a CBIII with a Theta-made HDMI input and output, in the home of any consumer.

We can let a neutral hold the money until then.

Nick :cool:

All we can do is speculate, so I propose we add interest to the speculation.

I will bet $500 right now that, within one year from this date, there will not be a CBIII with a Theta-made HDMI input and output, in the home of any consumer.

We can let a neutral hold the money until then.

Nick :cool:

$500 eh?

Speculation sure is expensive. Can't a man just eat his hat anymore? I could agree to your wager and that would be the honorable thing to do, but I am just a poor mixed up kid. I suggest you put your proposition to one of the people on here who owns a Casablanca III, as well as their own house and car. I know the exchange rate is quite favorable right now but $500 would buy a lot of Nordost Eco 3 and I have a hell of problem with static build ups in my parents basement where my system is, what with the tumble dryer being down there and all. :)

"Funny how you and Steve keep falling back to them, can't come up with a real response? Shawn

Shawn, you always interpret any opinions that I have which differ from yours as an attack. I haven't attacked you. Now Bulldogger, yea, he attacks you back. But I haven't. Guess I might as well, for you interpret it the same.

$500 eh?

Speculation sure is expensive. Can't a man just eat his hat anymore? I could agree to your wager and that would be the honorable thing to do, but I am just a poor mixed up kid. I suggest you put your proposition to one of the people on here who owns a Casablanca III, as well as their own house and car. I know the exchange rate is quite favorable right now but $500 would buy a lot of Nordost Eco 3 and I have a hell of problem with static build ups in my parents basement where my system is, what with the tumble dryer being down there and all. :)

The proposition was not directed to you. Anyone on this forum can take me up on the bet. We each submit $500 to a neutral party.

Nick :cool:

"Shawn, you always interpret any opinions that I have which differ from yours as an attack."

You are projecting Steve. Look at your response to my simple statement that the Six Shooter isn't a $2k pre-amp, it isn't one can't go out an buy one for 2k and use it, and that the Six Shooter would have had a much larger market if Theta had put controls on it.

I mentioned nothing at all about any other brand. Yet you overreacted and threw that all into the mix. You want to prove you don't use ad hominem attacks on people anymore? Prove it in your actions from here out.

Shawn

Nick,

The bet *might* need a qualifier... are you talking HDMI in any way shape or form or HDMI that can accept audio (LPCM or bitstream) over the connection?

I could see Theta perhaps having simple HDMI switching within a year. As far as audio over HDMI I tend to doubt that.

Shawn

All we can do is speculate, so I propose we add interest to the speculation.

I will bet $500 right now that, within one year from this date, there will not be a CBIII with a Theta-made HDMI input and output, in the home of any consumer.

We can let a neutral hold the money until then.

Nick :cool:

Nick. I luv my CB3 and Six Shooter, but my bet would be that Theta won't have HDMI for the CB3 until sometime into 2008. I hope I'm wrong. I do think they'll have it for sure in 2008 due to market pressures - keeping up with the Joneses.

Didn't Evelyn absolutely confim HDMI this year?! I though she did so here on this forum.

We consider it [HDMI 1.3] crucial and urgent to get it out before the end of this year.



Maybe not a confirmation...but an awareness that time is of the essence..

Nobody noticed theta's new entry level 4 channels dac ?

http://www.thetadigital.com/press-release/premium-dac-01-07.htm

This is probably to keep up with the new formats as the old standard dac did not support 96/24

Nobody noticed theta's new entry level 4 channels dac ?

http://www.thetadigital.com/press-release/premium-dac-01-07.htm

This is probably to keep up with the new formats as the old standard dac did not support 96/24
Good catch audiman. I see that it is a native 24/192 dac as well. I was hoping that Theta would produces a new Xtreme dac or Superior Dac that could do 24/192 native. My CB3 still has one Standard balanced card on the back channels. I've been holding out with hopes of shifting one of my Superior II cards to the EX channels and a new version of the Xtreme dac to the front channels. At the time of my communication, few months back, there no plans for a 24/192 native Xtreme dac. But do we need one really? It appears that 24/96 dacs are going to be enough.

"It appears that 24/96 dacs are going to be enough."

For the most part they should be. Multi-channel over HDMI will be at 96/24 max.

DSD converted to LPCM for transmission over HDMI has been done at 88.2/24 so far so that would work too.

HDMI can do two channels of 192/24 but supporting that in a pre-pro involves more then just 192/24 DACs, all the DSP needs to be capable of running at that speed as well. To do that requires much more DSP processing power and the DSP code has to be written to support 192/24. For 96/24 the pre-pro would need to be able to support that rate as well of course, but I think that is far more common at this point.

I think any sources that can do 192/24 also have the ability to downsample to 96/24 so as long as the pre-pro properly identifies what it can support to the source the source would downsample 192/24 to 96/24 before transmission over HDMI so the pre-pro will still receive data from the source.

Shawn

Most DSP systems that are powerful enough to do full bass management of 96/24 multichannel sources ought to be able to handle 192/24 two-channel as well. (The reason I use bass management as a condition is that it requires a good amount of communication bandwidth as well as raw processing power per channel.)

"Most DSP systems that are powerful enough to do full bass management of 96/24 multichannel sources ought to be able to handle 192/24 two-channel as well."

Bass management is just one part of the chain though. What about applying something like PLIIx to the signal. Now you have 7 channels of 192/24 to deal with in bass management which is going to need far more DSP power then bass managing the same number of channels at 96/24. And again the DSP code itself has to be able to run on the higher sampling rates. There is dts neo:6 code out there that can't even run at 96kHz for example.

Also the pathways through the processor itself may or may not be able to handle the higher sampling rates.

I was really just pointing out that to support 192/24 takes more then just 192/24 capable DACs.

Shawn

Fair enough. I concede that it would be a challenge, and that perhaps there are complexities I'm not appreciating. But 2-to-8 channel matrixing should still, in theory, require far fewer calculations than, say, 6-to-8 channel matrixing. And if those savings can't be full yharvested, or the rest of the signal chain can't handle 192/24, then perhaps the 2-to-8 matrixing can be combined with or preceded by a clean 96kHz downsampler.

EDIT: Depending on the exact matrix employed, matrixing a 192kHz stereo source to 8 speakers while *simultaneously* downsampling it to 96kHz can be accomplished with less DSP horsepower than matrixing a 6-channel 96kHz source to 8 speakers.

Alternatively, a system could support a "direct" stereo-only (i.e., 2.0 or 2.1 channel) 192/24 mode in those cases where the user really wants all the bits preserved. After all, anyone who gets really nervous about quality lost by downsampling to 96kHz is also not as likely to be fond of multichannel matrixing of stereo sources in the first place.

You'll never see the day when a 8 channels movie/music @ 192/24 comes out.

just finding a 192/24 2 channel recording is a challenge.

Agreed... do either of the HD formats support 8-channel 192/24? I thought 2-channel was it.

just got my CBIII upgrade in. Outside of shipping costs, no compaints whatsoever. Miles ahead of CBII....as good as it was. May it rest in peace. Amen:>)

just got my CBIII upgrade in. Outside of shipping costs, no compaints whatsoever. Miles ahead of CBII....as good as it was. May it rest in peace. Amen:>)

COOL. How many channels. Single-ended or balanced. Which DAC cards. One or two Six Shooters.

You are gonna be very, very pleased.

Gee - I posted here years ago that the CB3 upgrade was clearly much better than the CB2. No doubt about it. And then again when I added the Six Shooter I really got very, very happy!!!@@

ENJOY.

Well, it's a CBIIIb now.......but with the same dacs as before. One xtreme and 2 sups. I also had the power supply switched from US to UK. They are holding the old one for when I return to the states. And yes, once again, I was up until 3 in the morning listening to it. It's messing up my life, wrecking my schedule....and making me very happy! I've got the burn in tracks from my old HIFI News & Records Review CD on auto repeat right now to give the Cardas Quads some burn in time. Think I'll leave it that-a-way for a few days.

I do have a couple of questions though:

1: They didn't send me back my old power chord or send me a new one that would work in the UK....which is no big deal. I had an auxillary chord laying around anyway. They also forgot to send me back the remote so for now, I'm pushing the buttons on the unit until it arrives. As to power chords, I was thinking about ordering one of a little better quality.

a. Have any of you done that?
b. Did you get significant results?
c. What did you get?

2. Both DaveN and I have experienced audio-lock on our units from time to time. For the longest time, I assumed it was just something unique to my unit. Anytime I switched out a DVD/CD, paused a track, or did anything to interrupt the signal from the CB, it sometimes would not re-engage with the media stream after the pause was over. I usually had to shut the unit down and "re-boot" it to get things back up and running. I was hoping that the upgrade would take care of it but while at Dave's house a few weeks ago, I noticed his unit [also a CBIII] locking up also and last night my unit locked up once.

a. Are any of you guys experiencing this?
b. Does Theta know about it?
c. Are they doing anything about it?

They didn't send me back my old power chord or send me a new one that would work in the UK....which is no big deal. I had an auxillary chord laying around anyway. They also forgot to send me back the remote so for now, I'm pushing the buttons on the unit until it arrives. As to power chords, I was thinking about ordering one of a little better quality.

a. Have any of you done that?
b. Did you get significant results?
c. What did you get?



Years ago I switched all my power cords to Granite Audio www.graniteaudio.com
Private Message me off the forum and I can give you more info including how to get a real good price if you're interested. Bulldogger loves their power cords (and cables, as I do), too. I saved my lengthy AVS review from years ago and I can send it to you if you like. Yes they made a nice improvement in sonics (and picture).

2. Both DaveN and I have experienced audio-lock on our units from time to time. For the longest time, I assumed it was just something unique to my unit. Anytime I switched out a DVD/CD, paused a track, or did anything to interrupt the signal from the CB, it sometimes would not re-engage with the media stream after the pause was over. I usually had to shut the unit down and "re-boot" it to get things back up and running. I was hoping that the upgrade would take care of it but while at Dave's house a few weeks ago, I noticed his unit [also a CBIII] locking up also and last night my unit locked up once.

a. Are any of you guys experiencing this?
b. Does Theta know about it?
c. Are they doing anything about it?

I luve Theta but this is one they just haven't been able to fix completely with the CB3. On average once per evening this occurs for me, where I have to turn off the CB3 by remote and restart and all is fine. As has been pointed out, the CB3a unit
was doing real good in this department, only a very rare glitch like this, but the CB3 has more frequent such glitches, for me about once per day, like when changing HD TIVO channels. I'm used to it and can live with it due to the CB3s great sonics. Of course I wish it was not the case.

gotta run down to the town center and buy a juicer. Will pm you when I get back.

Once per evening the Theta locks up? How can this be acceptable to you or Theta? Have they tried to resolve it? Do you think they could implement HDMI properly if they are having this issue with a standard digital signal??

I'm not trying to beat Theta down, but a frequent lock up (once per night) seems like something Theta would be interested in correcting...

You are a patient man!:D

Jeff, the CB3 and Six Shooter is so fantastic that I can live with it, although I wish I didn't have to. As I pointed out, the CB3a version wasn't having this problem - the CB2 did big time. I guess that I view the problem as extremely minimal and can live with it. Just like you luv your Halcro but it also has its eccentricities that you can live with - although not this particular one that I live with my CB3. This has already been well reported here on the forum so there really is no need to belabor it.

Once per evening the Theta locks up? How can this be acceptable to you or Theta? Have they tried to resolve it? Do you think they could implement HDMI properly if they are having this issue with a standard digital signal??

I'm not trying to beat Theta down, but a frequent lock up (once per night) seems like something Theta would be interested in correcting...

You are a patient man!:D

I checked through most of Theta's website looking for some official statement or acknowledgment on this issue but as yet, I have not found anything even relating to it.

I previously figured that this was some rare occurence that was being blown a out of proportion in the way that only internet can do, but Steve's post is slightly alarming since he has great experience and knowledge of the piece. It seems difficult to comprehend that a fix has not been found unless, in order to fix the problem a major (and expensive) software rewrite or hardware change is required. Theta may be already working on this or perhaps it is not seen as viable financially but I think they should make some sort of statement on it. It isn't good to let things like this go on.

I imagine depending on the person this would either be a minor annoyance or a major PITA. It is hardly the sort of thing that would lead someone to want to dump the unit but it is difficult to accept in any product, let alone one at such a price point. Personally, I would find it unacceptable if I had the unit.

This is less of a missing feature like HDMI or Halcro's LPCM upgrade (which is coming :p ) but more a broken or misbehaving feature. :)

I agree. Steve, like the poster above, my impression was that it was an infrequent occurance..not an everyday event. I don't want to blow anything out of proportion but that is a significant occuruence that prospective buyers would likely like to know about.

Regarding Halcro, I have been forthright about all its warts as well...so anyone considering it has that prosective.

See you in May@!

I checked through most of Theta's website looking for some official statement or acknowledgment on this issue but as yet, I have not found anything even relating to it.

I previously figured that this was some rare occurence that was being blown a out of proportion in the way that only internet can do, but Steve's post is slightly alarming since he has great experience and knowledge of the piece. It seems difficult to comprehend that a fix has not been found unless, in order to fix the problem a major (and expensive) software rewrite or hardware change is required. Theta may be already working on this or perhaps it is not seen as viable financially but I think they should make some sort of statement on it. It isn't good to let things like this go on.

I imagine depending on the person this would either be a minor annoyance or a major PITA. It is hardly the sort of thing that would lead someone to want to dump the unit but it is difficult to accept in any product, let alone one at such a price point. Personally, I would find it unacceptable if I had the unit.

This is less of a missing feature like HDMI or Halcro's LPCM upgrade (which is coming :p ) but more a broken or misbehaving feature. :)

Here's my conjecture on this issue. First, Theta hasn't updated the CB3b firmware since November 2005. I understand that it was super really expensive for Theta to have their Crystal firmware/software designed, big time (I mean, do ya think it cost much for Microsoft to design Windows MP or Vista? Well, Theta had to pay really big bucks for a software developer to develop the Crystal software.)
To the extent this could be something that can be fixed by updating firmware, Theta I bet is concentrating on the HDMI and CB4 now to fix this. Moreoever, even more likely it is a defect in the DPL2/DTSNeo6/CS2 chip of the CB3b version, since I wasn't having this problem with the CB3a version. Recalling all of this for a smaller high end company like Theta will prove to be terribly expensive.

Am I totally pleased about this? No. But the positives of my Theta gear far outweight the negative (really, this one quirk is it).

With these days of computers and electronics, nothing is quite as simple as the old turntable and FM radio days.

Also, this problem is a sync problem that is source dependent, which does complicate the situation some. Though one would think if other high end surround processor owners do not have this problem that Theta should be able to solve it as well.

Theta is working on a CB4 ? did you get a confirmation ?

Theta is working on a CB4 ? did you get a confirmation ?

Theta has come out with a new CB version about every four years.
I am simply predicting this based on experience, that the CB4 will go along with
HDMI.

Also, this problem is a sync problem that is source dependent, which does complicate the situation some. Though one would think if other high end surround processor owners do not have this problem that Theta should be able to solve it as well.

I've had this issue going all the way back to the original CB. I've had countless players in my system since then [never had the pleasure of the Voyager though]. Never thought to track whether the audio lock was more prevalent with some sources than with others. I can say though that it has always happened. In the end, I'm like Steve I guess. The PC side of me says: I can live with it if I absolutely have to. The not-so PC side of me says: it is a big nuicance that I could certainly do without and I wish Theta would just grab hold of the issue and fix it once and for all.

I have never ever had this problem with my prior Voyager, my current Compli, any other DVD players that I've had in my system - only with satellite receivers.

Well perhaps Theta is listening and taking notes. Meantime, take a look at this:
Audio Research Corporation
MP1
Multichannel Preamplifier

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n304/jauvry/200503_arc_mp1.jpg

Apprently Kal has it in his system as we speak. I'm trying to find out if he's planning on doing a review of it in Stereophile sometime soon. The price tag is around 7 grand...which is probably what the six shooter would cost if they chose to trick it out this way.

Well, believe it or not, it's about dark here. So I'm off to play with my upgrade for awhile. Tonights features will be 2 Japanese Animation flicks and 1 blood and guts Asian film:

1st: Sky Blue; " Would you know the color Sky Blue if you'd never seen the sky? ": Tartan Video, 1.78:1 Anamorphic/ DD & DTS 5.1

2nd: Ghost in the Shell 2; "When machines learn to feel, who decides what is human?"; Manga Video; 1.85:1 Anamorphic/ DD & DTS 5.1

3rd [and if I have time]: Oldboy; "Taken w/o reason, imprisoned for 15 yrs, released w/o reason, 5 days to seek the truth." Tartan Asia Extreme; 2.35:1 Anamorphic/ DD-EX 5.1 & DTS-ES 6.1 [huh?]

Well perhaps Theta is listening and taking notes. Meantime, take a look at this:


Apprently Kal has it in his system as we speak. I'm trying to find out if he's planning on doing a review of it in Stereophile sometime soon. The price tag is around 7 grand...which is probably what the six shooter would cost if they chose to trick it out this way.
I've been trying to track that pre-amp down for a couple of years now. Never could find one in the cities that I was planning to visit. It certainly is not from a lack of trying. I have compared the Six Shooter to a friend's Audio Research LS25 in my system and preferred the Six Shooter. I am itching to check out the LS26 which is supposed to be even better. I have always been a big fan of Audio Research. The Reference 3, is STELLAR. The LS25 in my system provided a deeper soundstage vs the Six Shooter. The Six shooter was cleaner and more detailed but lacked the sound stage depth of the tube pre-amp. I preferred the resolution of the Six Shooter even with the compromise in sound stage depth in comparison. The MP1 is an all solid state design and should sound differently.

I love my LS-26. :)

Off to play with it and my Meridian 861 which doesn't have HDMI either... and I'm okay with it!! :D

Of course, there also is the CJ MET-1 6 channel vacuum-tube analog preamplifier:
http://www.conrad-johnson.com/It_just_sounds_right/met1.jpg

Ron, I think it is sick that my mouth actually watered when I saw this pic:D.

I love my LS-26. :)

Off to play with it and my Meridian 861 which doesn't have HDMI either... and I'm okay with it!! :D
What are Meridian's plans for HDMI? Any time frame yet?

What are Meridian's plans for HDMI? Any time frame yet?

There has been nothing official from Meridian (in typical Meridian fashion mind you)... however I would be VERY surprised if they don't come up with something for the 861 to make it HDMI friendly.

Personally I'd rather wait and be sure they get it right - then have something sooner and have issues... but that's just me.

I'm with Jim. Better late and right than early and wrong.

On the Six Shooter front, I'd like to propose and idea. So far, I've found multi channel pre amps made by Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, Bel Canto, McIntosh, McCormack, Linn, Halo/Parasound, and Tube Reaseach Labs. I'm sure there are more. I didn't know there was such a market for these things out there. What if Theta decided to have the SS as it is and for the same price, but also developed a tricked out version perhaps with higher grade parts that would be more akin to the GenVIII. The current SS has to accompany the CB to have any use. But the "Sonic Six Shooter" [for lack of a better phrase] would be a stand alone product that could be used with any player. However universal players would be the target. They do it with Amplifiers. Why not with pre amps as well?

Steve,

"Moreoever, even more likely it is a defect in the DPL2/DTSNeo6/CS2 chip of the CB3b version, since I wasn't having this problem with the CB3a version."

What decoder DSP is in the CB3b card? It is more likely it is just buggy firmware for the new card then it is a hardware problem with the new DSP chip itself. If you list the chip we can see what else it is used in and if they have format detect problems or not.

Shawn

Steve,

"Moreoever, even more likely it is a defect in the DPL2/DTSNeo6/CS2 chip of the CB3b version, since I wasn't having this problem with the CB3a version."

What decoder DSP is in the CB3b card? It is more likely it is just buggy firmware for the new card then it is a hardware problem with the new DSP chip itself. If you list the chip we can see what else it is used in and if they have format detect problems or not.

Shawn

I don't have that info.

"I don't have that info."

OK, no big deal... just curious. Did you install the CB3b card or was it dealer/factory installed?

The reason it is likely firmware is because you said the CB2 was plagued with this problem. and that the CB3a was not. Presumably they used the same decoder card in the two as the new card (CB3b) with the new modes wasn't ready yet. Yet the CB3a didn't have the problem... Theta probably made their format detect code in the CB3a more robust with whatever chip was on that card.

Then they put in a new chip which required new format detect code which was not as robust. If they are planning on supporting HDMI v1.3 with internal decoding that card will likely be replaced again..

Shawn

"I didn't know there was such a market for these things out there."

Don't forget the EMM Labs Switchman. 'Tis why controls on the Six Shooter would have made sense.... ;)

"The current SS has to accompany the CB to have any use. But the "Sonic Six Shooter" [for lack of a better phrase] would be a stand alone product that could be used with any player."

Dual inventory like that can sometimes be more trouble/cost then it is worth. If they were to do that they should of course also make the 'Sonic Six Shooter' be compatible with the CB3 as well.

If they could add controls to the SS and do it at or near the SS current cost (which should be doable) they would be less expensive then most of the competition.

Another option they could do (though it is more of a kludge) would be to put out a tiny little box that would plug into the control port of the SS to basically add stand alone IR control to the existing SS. The box would just basically translate from IR commands to the control protocol that the SS already uses with the CB3.

Shawn

Shawn/Steve,
whatever the issue is, there doesn't appear to be a clear pattern that I can see. On Steve's unit, he only gets the locking when using his Sat reciever. I don't have a Sat reciever plugged into my unit but yet I still get locking about once a day. DaveN's unit is hooked up roughly the same as mine and he gets it too [not sure about anyone else]. I believe we all have the b version upgrade but, with the exception of perhaps the a version, this has been a issue with CBs generally. I would assume it to be software related but where do you start?

"I don't have that info."

OK, no big deal... just curious. Did you install the CB3b card or was it dealer/factory installed?

The reason it is likely firmware is because you said the CB2 was plagued with this problem. and that the CB3a was not. Presumably they used the same decoder card in the two as the new card (CB3b) with the new modes wasn't ready yet. Yet the CB3a didn't have the problem... Theta probably made their format detect code in the CB3a more robust with whatever chip was on that card.

Then they put in a new chip which required new format detect code which was not as robust. If they are planning on supporting HDMI v1.3 with internal decoding that card will likely be replaced again..

Shawn

It was factory installed. My understanding is that Theta was doing all of this at the factory.

"there doesn't appear to be a clear pattern that I can see."

From what I have read it sounds like it occurs on format changes over S/PDIF. Is that when you have it occur? DVD players vary widely in how well they behave (or not) on format changes. For example Sony's (at least the older ones) are very good about this while Pioneers have typically been poorly behaved. That could be why some are having problems with DVD players while others aren't.
Sat. boxes are fairly poorly behaved from what I have read.

"this has been a issue with CBs generally. I would assume it to be software related but where do you start?"

Keep at Theta and your dealer for a fix. You should not have to deal with lockups once a day.

That is not normal and it is not common with other units.

As a point of reference I had to reboot my MC-12HD last week as it went into a mute state and would not come out. It surprised me when it happened as I think it was the first time I have had to do that in the 10 months or so that I owned it. I can not recall when I had to reboot the MC-12 I had before the MC-12HD.... likely years ago.

When the original MC-12 first came out on it's initial software release (v1.0) it had some format detect issues. The main problem was it took a very very very long time to come out of mute on a format change... 2 or 3 seconds. This was much slower then the earlier MC1, DC2 and DC1 processors so users complained about this. On occasion it would also go into a mute state (sounds similar to what the CB3b is doing) in that the user had to switch inputs and come back to get audio back. When 'Pearl Harbor' came out on DVD it turned out that v1.0 also was susceptible to the 'Pearl Harbor' problem (Dolby changed the DD bitstream extension bits slightly which tripped up some decoders) which would lock up the MC-12 requiring a reboot.

Lexicon released v1.1 software a few months later (free upgrade, simple user software install) that fixed the 'Pearl Harbor' bug, completely fixed the occasional format detect problem and dramatically sped up the time it took to get audio back after a format change to maybe 1/4 or a 1/2 of a second.

If one isn't happy about an aspect of their unit they should let the dealer and manufacturer know. They can't fix/change things if they A) don't know about the problem or B) can not duplicate the problem or C) don't think it is important to their users.

The key to getting a problem fixed, assuming the company is willing/able to fix it, is telling them exactly what is needed to duplicate the problem. In other words find a repeatable way to make the problem occur and explain it exactly to the manufacturer. This works better then ranting and raving.

For example something like the current configuration of your CB3b fed from a Pioneer 434 player set bitstream S/PDIF output into coax2, play 'Gladiator' and let the main menu of the DVD loop. When it loops the unit goes into mute state and doesn't come out. That way if anyone else tries that exact combination they should be able to duplicate the problem.

Shawn

I'm with Jim. Better late and right than early and wrong.

On the Six Shooter front, I'd like to propose and idea. So far, I've found multi channel pre amps made by Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, Bel Canto, McIntosh, McCormack, Linn, Halo/Parasound, and Tube Reaseach Labs. I'm sure there are more. I didn't know there was such a market for these things out there. What if Theta decided to have the SS as it is and for the same price, but also developed a tricked out version perhaps with higher grade parts that would be more akin to the GenVIII. The current SS has to accompany the CB to have any use. But the "Sonic Six Shooter" [for lack of a better phrase] would be a stand alone product that could be used with any player. However universal players would be the target. They do it with Amplifiers. Why not with pre amps as well?
Sales volume. The U.S. distributer for Emm labs told me that the SW3 although an excellent pre-amp is the worst selling thing that Emm labs makes. I do not think there is much market for them. That is likely the same reason that I was never able to locate a dealer with an Audio Research MP1 as well. In fact I seem to recall a conversation with someone at Audio Research regarding the fact that they had sold very few of them when I inquired as to which dealer might possibly have one. Now with SACD and DVD-A basically failures, there is even less support. I just do not think there is a market for a stand alone Six Shooter.

hmmmm. If this is true, then it's a testament to Theta's choice to make the six shooter a low cost item that is dedicated to CBs.

"there doesn't appear to be a clear pattern that I can see."

From what I have read it sounds like it occurs on format changes over S/PDIF. Is that when you have it occur? DVD players vary widely in how well they behave (or not) on format changes. For example Sony's (at least the older ones) are very good about this while Pioneers have typically been poorly behaved. That could be why some are having problems with DVD players while others aren't.
Sat. boxes are fairly poorly behaved from what I have read.

"this has been a issue with CBs generally. I would assume it to be software related but where do you start?"

Keep at Theta and your dealer for a fix. You should not have to deal with lockups once a day.

That is not normal and it is not common with other units.

As a point of reference I had to reboot my MC-12HD last week as it went into a mute state and would not come out. It surprised me when it happened as I think it was the first time I have had to do that in the 10 months or so that I owned it. I can not recall when I had to reboot the MC-12 I had before the MC-12HD.... likely years ago.

When the original MC-12 first came out on it's initial software release (v1.0) it had some format detect issues. The main problem was it took a very very very long time to come out of mute on a format change... 2 or 3 seconds. This was much slower then the earlier MC1, DC2 and DC1 processors so users complained about this. On occasion it would also go into a mute state (sounds similar to what the CB3b is doing) in that the user had to switch inputs and come back to get audio back. When 'Pearl Harbor' came out on DVD it turned out that v1.0 also was susceptible to the 'Pearl Harbor' problem (Dolby changed the DD bitstream extension bits slightly which tripped up some decoders) which would lock up the MC-12 requiring a reboot.

Lexicon released v1.1 software a few months later (free upgrade, simple user software install) that fixed the 'Pearl Harbor' bug, completely fixed the occasional format detect problem and dramatically sped up the time it took to get audio back after a format change to maybe 1/4 or a 1/2 of a second.

If one isn't happy about an aspect of their unit they should let the dealer and manufacturer know. They can't fix/change things if they A) don't know about the problem or B) can not duplicate the problem or C) don't think it is important to their users.

The key to getting a problem fixed, assuming the company is willing/able to fix it, is telling them exactly what is needed to duplicate the problem. In other words find a repeatable way to make the problem occur and explain it exactly to the manufacturer. This works better then ranting and raving.

For example something like the current configuration of your CB3b fed from a Pioneer 434 player set bitstream S/PDIF output into coax2, play 'Gladiator' and let the main menu of the DVD loop. When it loops the unit goes into mute state and doesn't come out. That way if anyone else tries that exact combination they should be able to duplicate the problem.

Shawn

I agree with everything you're saying Shawn. I've had my unit back in operation now for just a few days. But let me give you an example of what I'm taking about. I think I got the unit back on Monday. Everythjing went fine the first night. On Tuesday night, it happened while switching out DVDs. I turned the unit off, turned it back on and everyything was fine. I then left the unit on all night with a burn in track playing on auto repeat and when I got up the next morning, I had to reboot the unit to get it going again. I would assume it locked up sometime during the night during one of the pause segments before the track repeat begins. That would make it 2 lock-ups in less than 24 hours. But yet, after watching a couple of movies last night with no problems, I left it on again all night with the same burn in track running and right now, to this very minute, it has been going non- stop without one lock-up [knock on a whole lotta wood]. So it isn't as if it happens everytime I perform a certain function without fail. It's just some wierd intermittent thing that comes and goes according to some cycle or pattern that I have yet to detect. I do agree though that it would be useful for everyone to document when this happens regardless of whether you detect a pattern or not. Perhaps this way and over time, the guys at Theta can get some idea of what's' going on and begin to address it as an issue.

I was kind've hoping that if the discussion continued long enough, perhaps Evelyn would pop on and make a few points.

I agree with everything you're saying Shawn. I've had my unit back in operation now for just a few days. But let me give you an example of what I'm taking about. I think I got the unit back on Monday. Everythjing went fine the first night. On Tuesday night, it happened while switching out DVDs. I turned the unit off, turned it back on and everyything was fine. I then left the unit on all night with a burn in track playing on auto repeat and when I got up the next morning, I had to reboot the unit to get it going again. I would assume it locked up sometime during the night during one of the pause segments before the track repeat begins. That would make it 2 lock-ups in less than 24 hours. But yet, after watching a couple of movies last night with no problems, I left it on again all night with the same burn in track running and right now, to this very minute, it has been going non- stop without one lock-up [knock on a whole lotta wood]. So it isn't as if it happens everytime I perform a certain function without fail. It's just some wierd intermittent thing that comes and goes according to some cycle or pattern that I have yet to detect. What might be useful though for everyone is to document when it happens regardlessof whether you detect a pattern or not. Perhaps this way and over time, the guys at Theta can get some idea of what's' going on and begin to address it as an issue.

I was kind've hoping that if the discussion continued long enough, perhaps Evelyn would pop on and make a few points.

That is pretty interesting, javry. It is a strange one for sure, these types of intermittent issues are always the hardest to fix I suppose. Your experience would support that this gremlin only ever surfaces in a situation were the audio signal is interrupted as no one has reported it locking up during a movie or in the middle of a track for example (I think). I can't imagine that Theta are simply totally unaware of this of problem (I recall someone here saying they had spoken "heart to heart" with Theta about it?)

I suppose it might be possible that whenever Theta have tried to recreate the problem that the the unit has just continued to work fine during their trial period but it sounds like is just happens to often (with often being once or twice a day) assuming they are testing under the right conditions.

I agree entirely with Shawn that the problem has to be brought out into the open and tackled pragmatically. Like Shawn said, the first thing is to be able to find a way of reliably and consistently repeating the problem. It would be interesting to see what happens with the Gladiator DVD menu screen since that is quite short and of course has that great Hans Zimmer soundtrack! :)

Sean

I have a CBIIIb. My sources include a Panasonic E85H DVD recorder, Denon DVD-2900 (used for DVDs and CDs) and a Motorola/Comcast box.

Once in a while, maybe once or twice a month, I get a crash. Never ever is it every 24 hours. When it does crash, I do a hard reset (switch on back) and then I'm good to go.

I'm thinking this does look source dependent.

javry,

Theta is very aware of this problem as I just sent my CB3 back to them three weeks ago complaining of this exact problem. I'm dealing with Carl Nicolson. Theta sent the CB3 back to me about 1 week later stating that they had no issues like the ones we're talking about and it was probably in my setup or the sources I'm using. I put Carl's exact quote in the "Some Theta Double Talk" thread.

Carl told me if it continues to reship (at my expense) the CB3 with any of the sources and DVD's that I'm having the issues with and they would recreate the lock ups. Bad news is I did that two years ago. Still waiting for the results of that.....

The really sad part (for me) is not once did Theta acknoledge they have a problem with the CB3b they just blamed it on my equipment and setup. I guess Theta only uses Theta compentents when testing the CB3. I wish I could afford the compli but my budget does not allow me at this time.

I have a CBIIIb. My sources include a Panasonic E85H DVD recorder, Denon DVD-2900 (used for DVDs and CDs) and a Motorola/Comcast box."

The Denon is a well behaved DVD player. I used to have one of them as well.

If anyone has Pioneer players try some testing with them. I think Dolby or one of the standard calibration DVDs has a section of testing where it goes through a bunch of various format changes. Might try putting that on loop for awhile. Or on a player with a bad layer change trying looping on that for awhile. The later 'Gone in Sixty Seconds' layer change is pretty bad about this for example.... it was the only DVD I ever noticed the layer change on the 2900.

"I'm thinking this does look source dependent."

It might be, it might be configuration (loading different modes on the different formats) or hardware differences between the two CB3s too. Might be a little of both. Might be something else.

That is one of the gotchas of card cage designs. There is that extra level of variability in hardware which can make testing/debugging/coding that much more difficult.

Shawn

I have had several Theta DVD players in my system - Voyager, Carmen, and now Compli - and I've also had a cheapo Pioneer at one time. Never a problem with them. Figure that!!

I'm a CB3 owner and the wait for HDMI audio is killing me. I'm tired of hearing about everyone else that is enjoying HDMI audio from their $900 receivers and thinking that I may have to get something in the meantime.

I have a IIIb and it is so buggy, I have to reboot it almost daily. But then again, I am rebooting my A2 weekly. I love the sound though. Why can't it all just work all the time? Is that too much to ask? I would rather have complete reliability than HDMI.

Now that I think about it - when I first upgraded to the CB3 several years ago, only very occasionally did I have to reboot due to my HD TIVO burping soundwise. Its in the past year with firmware upgrades to the HD TIVO that its got much worse. Figure that!!!

I just got off the phone with Carl in a discussion about this issue. Since I've gotten my upgrade back on Monday, I've had 5 lock-ups [2 of them today]. I was taking Steve's and Shawn's advise and letting the issue fester to the point that, hopefully, someone from Theta would hone in and give us some much needed advise but when no one stepped up, I decided to call.

Carl told me that the engineers at Theta are definitely aware of this issue. They have seen it come and go but are baffled at why it's there at all. Their problem is the same as ours. That is, they are not able to replicate the conditions that cause the lock-up with the kind of regularity that will confirm a root cause, and thus lay the groundwork for a solution. They think it may have something to do with random jitter anomolies from the source though I don't know if that's an empirical assesment or just someone's WAG. Apparently, for every upgrade to CBIII that brings the problem about, there's a equal upgrade where the problem gets resolved....and they just don't know why. FWIW, he did assure me though that they are working on it.

I told him that it would probably calm a lot of folks down if someone from Theta could post an acknowlegment of the issue and at least give us a status of
what's going on. He agreed and said he would bring it up with Evelyn

Hello to all on the forum,

Neil and I have been discussing what amounts to a whole constellation of things that can go wrong in your systems, and the reasons for the problems.

We've been writing up some information that we plan to post on Theta's web site, discussing the kinds of "glitches" that can manifest themselves in these complex systems and the likeliest causes for them.

One of reasons that this is hard to discuss is that there are multiple factors at work.

A few on this Forum have alluded to our work on an input circuit more forgiving of source components that send out-of-spec signals to the processor. We have recently sent samples of this circuit to Theta dealers in locales where set top boxes have most notably demonstrated this bad-signal problem. We are waiting for their input. I'll keep you posted.

This is a moving target. As Steve and a few others have mentioned, the broadcast signals have been getting worse.

Neil comments: “If we built $500 receivers, the decision would be clear and the implementation simple. Because Casablanca is a high performance component, we don't want to unnecessarily "dumb it down," especially for your source components that output consistently good, in-spec signals.

“If suddenly, we could only buy low octane fuel for our cars, your Jeep mechanic would have easier decisions to make than would your Farrari mechanic. This, assuming you would expect your Farrari to maintain the high performance you bought it for.”

Forgive this brief note, but we felt it was better than nothing, while we put together answers that will actually explain, in depth, some of the phenomena. We see posts expressing dissatisfaction with answers some have gotten that were not detailed enough. We’re working on answers to your questions –AND solutions to the problems.

Since Evelyn and the gang presently is reading this forum I figure now is a good time to chime in.

I received my new CB3 in Feb., I haven't even returned the warranty card yet.
I'm not new to a CB I still have my CB1 going on 10yrs.now with few real problems and nothing Theta couldn't fix.
I'm not certain if my problem is the same problem as some of the other posters have that their calling "audio dropouts".
What my CB3 does or rather does not do all the time is, it does NOT drop out of Dolby Digital when I tune my HR-20 hd-dvr sat.box to a non DD channel.
I can't duplicate the problem by toggling between channels, it either slips out of DD and into pro-logic 2 or it doesn't and there is no audio.
I haven't found the need to reboot the CB3 as other posters have said they do to FIX the problem.
I just have to toggle the remotes A/D button or toggle the inputs on the blanca to get it back into pro logic 2 and it's FIXED.
Until the next time the CB3 decides not to drop out of DD after changing the channel!

I was wondering if the problem was somehow related to the signal before I called Theta to complain. If it was somehow specific to my sat. co. or my box, so I check here.
I can tell you the CB1 does not have the same problem with the same signal from the same source.
The CB3 is so much faster and smarter then the CB1, I just can't understand why the CB3 would need to be as Evelyn says "dumbed down" for it to handle the signal as well as the CB1 does.

I guess I'll wait and see what else Theta posts here or on their website about the problem before I call and complain, since from Evelyns post it seems that they are aware of these types of quirks. I really don't want to ship it back if it's not an actual CB3 problem, who does? Now, at least I kinda have a spare blanca, as dumb as the CB1 is, it works every time.
In the meantime, I guess I'd better fill out that warranty card as this guy Carl, as nice of a guy as he may be, does not know me as an old customer from a hole in the wall.
And I wouldn't have known John was gone without this forum or until I needed some serious help, which I may well need yet but I'll patiently wait. I've waited this long to replace my CB1.

OK...sorry to rant but I did wait a very long time to replace it. I got my moneys worth for sure.
Still, that much cash you don't spend that often and problems are the last thing I thought about when I finally sprung for it a second time. The main concern when I started to read this thread months ago was, do I buy another blanca now knowing that there was no HDMI solution or new HD audio modes yet and I evidently decided Theta would eventually get around to it and do their "Digital done right" thing. So aside from the cost of a new CB3/2 Extreme Dacs, there was the cost of an outboard video scaler which I would have forgone at the same point in time had the CB3 a place to plug HDMI cables. I never expected to hear someone hollar, "somethings wrong, I changed the channel and there's no sound"!

Also, since Theta is here let me give an opinion about HDMI. You only need to add an audio HDMI input. Leave the video to the VP's. This should make implemation easier.

I received my new CB3 in Feb., I haven't even returned the warranty card yet.
I'm not new to a CB I still have my CB1 going on 10yrs.

Im curious why you bought a whole new CBIII rather than upgrading your CBI??

Thanks
Mike

Im curious why you bought a whole new CBIII rather than upgrading your CBI??

Thanks
Mike

I opted for the whole shebang for no single good reason at all. Just a few small reasons.

If you FULLY upgrade the CB1 to a CB3, which really is not necessary if you just want to bring your old Blanca up to date but you can wind up buying a new chassis and power supply too, as the chassis in the CB1 is smaller then the others and the power supply is not a card and if and when it ever goes, it's gonna be a bit harder to swap and it's definitely going back to Theta for that repair.
I have 1 standard DAC card in the CB1 that for most people is pretty much useless these days, if it's not yet, it will be soon. So I needed at least 1 new DAC card. The existing Superior DAC they could modify.
But I wanted the new display, I wanted Extreme DACS, I wanted the Alloy cover, I wanted everything the CB3 is.
If I had gone from the CB1 to a CB2 and then the 3 perhaps I wouldn't have 2 CB's now. I'm not sure and I'll never know.
All in all, the route I was going to take would have left me with nothing more then the large part of the front panel. For not very much more I got to keep the whole old Blanca.

Of course it can always be sold to make the new CB3 cheaper. Even having fewer audio modes then some receiver at Best Buy, I think it still sounds so much better then most new junk on the market. I'm guessing you feel pretty much the same way about a CB1's sound.

Over the years, I sent my CB1 back to Theta a few times for Updates - newer type button seals, newer computer wire they started using, pretty much all small stuff except for one time they swapped out over a dozen chips for newer types. The old ones caused this loud snap going into Dolby Digital from day one that blew speaker fuses.
Of course every time they had it, it came back all tested again and newish. The last time the had it was only about 2yrs. ago, so the thing is really in better shape now then it was when brand new. I just can't see tearing the whole thing down for what amounts to part of the front panel and a couple of reworked cards.

Another reason for me to actually keep the CB1 was, all the kiddies are gone and with them went this piece of stereo and that piece of stereo. I didn't have a whole 2nd system anymore that was worth turning on. Could I replace this CB1 with something else any better for the differance in the price?

Most importantly.... I got the CB3 in a different color! :rolleyes:

bigbro

Most importantly.... I got the CB3 in a different color! :rolleyes:

bigbro

Ah ha! now I understand. Seriously though, that sucks that the price to upgrade is almost as much as a new unit...

Thanks
Mike

Ah ha! now I understand. Seriously though, that sucks that the price to upgrade is almost as much as a new unit...

Thanks
Mike

Mike, you are wrong. Problem here is he not only was talking upgrading from CB1 to CB3 directly (two upgrades, not one), but adding additional features, changing display, changing chassis, I assume new DACs, etc.

Upgrade CB1 to CB2 was $800. New chassis was recommended another $300.00.
If you wanted to change display from green to blue, $500.00.

Upgrade CB2 to CB3 was $2,000. If you want to change button to new PIE button, $300. Other costs same as for CB2 above. Add Six Shooter $2,000.00 per Six Shooter.

Seriously, the Casablanca has been a really good deal for upgrading.

Above prices are per my memory and are likely somewhat higher for non-original owners. When you upgrade, you get a brand new warranty, too.

Neil comments: “If we built $500 receivers, the decision would be clear and the implementation simple. Because Casablanca is a high performance component, we don't want to unnecessarily "dumb it down," especially for your source components that output consistently good, in-spec signals.”If the CBIII could lock on to less-than-perfect signals, why would that capability 'dumb down' the processor and make it any less high performance?

Sanjay

I don't think that it sucks as long as I feel I got my moneys worth out of the CB1 and after a decade of enjoying it, relatively trouble free, that's exactly how I feel!

I know I did not follow the traditional upgrade path, that's my fault.

At this point it would've been a whole different Blanca either way. I still have the CB1 to sell, so the CBIII is cheaper, to have the basic upgrade done if need be or just left as is in another room or spare so there's no downtime should the CBIII need to be returned to Theta
(G-d forbid). For a second Blanca I do not necessarily need the new display, new buttons, new tower, etc.

There really would be nothing left of my CB1 if I changed the chassis, power supply even the color of the front panel.
I also upgraded from 6 channels (3 standard and 3 superior) to 8 channels of Extreme DACS, added the digital output card which my CB1 did not have for a future Gen VIII or whatever number they might be doing when I get around to that. I'm sure it'll makes for great stereo.

What does suck and one reason for hanging onto the perfectly good CB1 and the original reason I posted to this forum is, that the CBIII as sweet as it sounds, does not always drop out of Dolby Digital into pro-logic 2 when the channel is changed from a DD channel to a non DD channel using an HR-20 HD-DVR and the CBI never misses that trick!

Bigbro

If the CBIII could lock on to less-than-perfect signals, why would that capability 'dumb down' the processor and make it any less high performance?

Sanjay

my sentiments also....

I don't think that it sucks as long as I feel I got my moneys worth out of the CB1 and after a decade of enjoying it, relatively trouble free, that's exactly how I feel!

I know I did not follow the traditional upgrade path, that's my fault.

At this point it would've been a whole different Blanca either way. I still have the CB1 to sell, so the CBIII is cheaper, to have the basic upgrade done if need be or just left as is in another room or spare so there's no downtime should the CBIII need to be returned to Theta
(G-d forbid). For a second Blanca I do not necessarily need the new display, new buttons, new tower, etc.

There really would be nothing left of my CB1 if I changed the chassis, power supply even the color of the front panel.
I also upgraded from 6 channels (3 standard and 3 superior) to 8 channels of Extreme DACS, added the digital output card which my CB1 did not have for a future Gen VIII or whatever number they might be doing when I get around to that. I'm sure it'll makes for great stereo.

What does suck and one reason for hanging onto the perfectly good CB1 and the original reason I posted to this forum is, that the CBIII as sweet as it sounds, does not always drop out of Dolby Digital into pro-logic 2 when the channel is changed from a DD channel to a non DD channel using an HR-20 HD-DVR and the CBI never misses that trick!

Bigbro

When I decided to go from the CBI to CBII, I did some qucik calcs and discovered that it was a zero sum gain to do an upgrade vs selling the CBI and buying the CBII outright, given all the new stuff I was going to be putting into it and the discounts that were available for the CBII at the time.

Also, since Theta is here let me give an opinion about HDMI. You only need to add an audio HDMI input. Leave the video to the VP's. This should make implemation easier.

Let's hope Theta is smart enough to not take this advice. Anyone without a VP would be screwed.

Let's hope Theta is smart enough to not take this advice. Anyone without a VP would be screwed.

Yea, every company needs a VP (Vice-President). HAAAA!!!

Seriously, VP (video processing), while not for me, using an external Lumagen VisionPro HDP, is what most folks who buy the CB3 via a custom installer want.
So Theta isn't foolish enough not to provide it as they do the HDMI upgrade.

Another note, re our good friend John Baloff no longer working at Theta.
My understanding is John left Theta as he has family committments taking up much of his time and he lived some distance from Theta, it was just too far.
Carl is filling in, among his other positions, while Theta is working on hiring a replacement. Yes, its awful hard to replace John - he was just so outstanding.
I doubt there are hardly any like John around and its unfair to expect anyone to measure up to John. I have talked to at least 3-4 folks in that position at Theta over the years. I definitely will miss John and I wish him the very best for himself and his family. He's a great guy.

Yea, every company needs a VP (Vice-President). HAAAA!!!

Seriously, VP (video processing), while not for me, using an external Lumagen VisionPro HDP, is what most folks who buy the CB3 via a custom installer want.
So Theta isn't foolish enough not to provide it as they do the HDMI upgrade.

Another note, re our good friend John Baloff no longer working at Theta.
My understanding is John left Theta as he has family committments taking up much of his time and he lived some distance from Theta, it was just too far.
Carl is filling in, among his other positions, while Theta is working on hiring a replacement. Yes, its awful hard to replace John - he was just so outstanding.
I doubt there are hardly any like John around and its unfair to expect anyone to measure up to John. I have talked to at least 3-4 folks in that position at Theta over the years. I definitely will miss John and I wish him the very best for himself and his family. He's a great guy.

Sorry if I didn't quite understand. Are you saying tha Theta WILL have VP? I hope not. Why would I want to mix high end audio with video? Next thing you know, the Theta will be a full reciever with power amps!!!! Keep it pure!

Sorry if I didn't quite understand. Are you saying tha Theta WILL have VP? I hope not. Why would I want to mix high end audio with video? Next thing you know, the Theta will be a full reciever with power amps!!!! Keep it pure!

Theta will NOT start building video scalers into their video cards. Their leaving that to the companies that already make video their business.
As per John B.

bigbro

Sorry if I didn't quite understand. Are you saying tha Theta WILL have VP? I hope not. Why would I want to mix high end audio with video? Next thing you know, the Theta will be a full reciever with power amps!!!! Keep it pure!

OK. Here's what I know, to clarify:

1. Theta has said they're developing HDMI for video switching. And that's that.

2. Theta has said they're developing HDMI for multi-channel audio, say from HD DVD and Blue Ray.

3. We really haven't discussed whether any products will be developed using HDMI say for redbook CD instead of coaxial or toslink - and that's cause it ain't happening at least with Theta.

4. Theta hasn't said anything about multi-channel DVD-A or SACD over HDMI and I really don't know.

"Why would I want to mix high end audio with video?""

Because if you want audio over HDMI you automatically get video too. Audio and video are interleaved, they are not separate data streams in HDMI. The audio data is passed in the VBI of the video stream on HDMI.

That doesn't mean you have to have video processing in the box to get at the audio but it will have to at least accept the different video resolutions just to be able to get at the audio.

Shawn

"Why would I want to mix high end audio with video?""

Because if you want audio over HDMI you automatically get video too. Audio and video are interleaved, they are not separate data streams in HDMI. The audio data is passed in the VBI of the video stream on HDMI.

That doesn't mean you have to have video processing in the box to get at the audio but it will have to at least accept the different video resolutions just to be able to get at the audio.

Shawn


That's not what I meant. Theta should not get involved in video. I'm not even convinced that Theta should offer HDMI switching. One input is all that is needed. Use an outboard video switcher with two outputs, send one to the Theta and the other output to the video device. Theta has enough difficulty switching audio inputs now, let's keep things as simple as possible.

I'd say fix the audio-lock issue before adding one more frigin thing!

I just wanted to add my 2cents to the lock-up discussion. I run a CBIIIb with a David II over S/PDIF and a Toslink from my TV. I've had the lock-up that was described maybe 10 times in two years. My rate is so low that I can't really tell what the underlying pattern might be.

What is a more interesting story is my experience with my David. The David has progressive outputs and I was not able to get the video to synch with the progressive output. I took the unit back to Theta and Theta was not able to reproduce the problem. Well I got the David back and hooked it up again and nothing had changed. So back on the phone to John Baloff and we decided to bring the unit back in. Well after two weeks at Theta they still couldn't reproduce the problem. Back to my house, hooked up the David and still no progressive output. Back on the phone to John and in our discussions John tells me that the technicians use a computer monitor to troubleshoot my unit. The computer monitor uses a separate synch signal and my video monitor wants the synch on green. So I go buy a 5 BNC to VGA adaptor and set up the David with my computer monitor and everything is fine. The David goes back to Theta and it turns out that one of the op-amps in the synch circuitry has two dash numbers and the one in my unit is the wrong dash number. Theta replaces the part and the David has worked great ever since.

So what's my point? I guess it's that while there might be some issues with the CBs, I believe that Theta is committed to working them out and the more that we can do to point them to the root causes the sooner we will be getting the bugs out.

Guys, I just wanted to post to this issue one last time and let you know what's transpired over the last week w/r to the lock-up issue on my CBIIIb. First, let me say that I have been in constant contact with both Theta and my dealer on this. I won't bore you guys with a whole lot of useless details but the bottom line is Theta is heavily involved and backing me all the way. It's excactly what I would've expected and also why I've stuck with them for so long. And now for the greater news. I just completed my second week with the upgrade and it's been a total of 5 full days without one lock-up. I'm still knocking on wood though. You just never know. Maybe the unit just needed some burn in time before settling down. I don't know. But it sure is nice. Since Theta is now helping me resolve this issue, I'm going to work it with them on a personal level from here on out. I will however, let you guys know how it turns out. In the iinterim, a big hearty thanks to Steve for letting me crash into his thread and to the rest of you for both your patience and support.

Yes, Theta is working hard on this lock up audio issue - but until they are fully confident it is resolved, they won't say much except they are workin' on it. I too have been assured that Theta is giving this issue their best attention.

Guys, I just wanted to post to this issue one last time and let you know what's transpired over the last week w/r to the lock-up issue on my CBIIIb. First, let me say that I have been in constant contact with both Theta and my dealer on this. I won't bore you guys with a whole lot of useless details but the bottom line is Theta is heavily involved and backing me all the way. It's excactly what I would've expected and also why I've stuck with them for so long. And now for the greater news. I just completed my second week with the upgrade and it's been a total of 5 full days without one lock-up. I'm still knocking on wood though. You just never know. Maybe the unit just needed some burn in time before settling down. I don't know. But it sure is nice. Since Theta is now helping me resolve this issue, I'm going to work it with them on a personal level from here on out. I will however, let you guys know how it turns out. In the iinterim, a big hearty thanks to Steve for letting me crash into his thread and to the rest of you for both your patience and support.
Thanks! Keep us posted.

I copied this link from the Parasound thread. The guy from Parasound, ParasoundRichard gives some good insight on HDMI that I believe is relevant here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=828684

Thanks to Bulldogger for posting that link to the “Official Manufacturer's Q & A – Parasound!”

Post 12 and part of post 26 relate to some of the “issues” with HDMI. A sample quote from Parasound’s president:
“HDMI has been a nightmare for many people - the same people who are usually the most enthusiastic and willing to pay the high prices to own the newest technology. There's not enough room here to recite the problems of compatibility, non-compliance, etc.”

We don’t like the idea of saying things very publicly that could seem antagonistic to companies that are a lot bigger than we are, and whom we would like to be nice to us. I’m not even going to comment on the remarks there. But, hey, go look at what the other manufacturer is saying.

On the mysterious lock-up problems, there is a thread over here that has been started discussing this issue and what we’re doing about it: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=837530 “Theta Casablanca Sound Glitch.” Unfortunately it has been discovered by someone with a need to discuss his receiver, but if you can get around that I think the thread should develop as the results of our listening and performance tests come in.

I don’t want to try to explain things over there (at least until the receiver guy gets bored and goes away). But here’s a brief, highly non-technical explanation of the nature of what happens when the Casablanca gets the hiccoughs:

The Casablanca was designed to receive signals that meet the minimal parameters set as ‘industry standards’ for the kinds of digital signals it gets.

Signals coming from very cheap components are some times so bad that they don’t look like valid signals. We’ve seen this problem in cheap set-top satellite boxes for years. Recently we have seen some new, localized problems that may be the results of cable companies degrading their signals to get more channels through the same bandwidth. Bargain DVD players can send out signals that the Casablanca does not cope with. We are not done checking out the possible causes of “glitches” but these are some that we do know about.

People want to know why our expensive unit is not designed to cope with bad input, and some of them sound kind of indignant about it, understandably.

The Casablanca can be designed with a wider acceptance for what it regards as an acceptable signal. This widening of the input parameters compromises sonic quality. (I can explain this, but not without getting technical.)

We want to offer you choices so that your Casablanca can cope with bad signals but still deliver the best possible sound on the good ones.

Steve B. has posted some of the results that he has been getting with a kit we sent to him to help us test.

We are very grateful to Steve for his help in this, by the way.

Evelyn

Thanks to Bulldogger for posting that link to the “Official Manufacturer's Q & A – Parasound!”

Post 12 and part of post 26 relate to some of the “issues” with HDMI. A sample quote from Parasound’s president:
“HDMI has been a nightmare for many people - the same people who are usually the most enthusiastic and willing to pay the high prices to own the newest technology. There's not enough room here to recite the problems of compatibility, non-compliance, etc.”

We don’t like the idea of saying things very publicly that could seem antagonistic to companies that are a lot bigger than we are, and whom we would like to be nice to us. I’m not even going to comment on the remarks there. But, hey, go look at what the other manufacturer is saying.

On the mysterious lock-up problems, there is a thread over here that has been started discussing this issue and what we’re doing about it: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=837530 “Theta Casablanca Sound Glitch.” Unfortunately it has been discovered by someone with a need to discuss his receiver, but if you can get around that I think the thread should develop as the results of our listening and performance tests come in.

I don’t want to try to explain things over there (at least until the receiver guy gets bored and goes away). But here’s a brief, highly non-technical explanation of the nature of what happens when the Casablanca gets the hiccoughs:

The Casablanca was designed to receive signals that meet the minimal parameters set as ‘industry standards’ for the kinds of digital signals it gets.

Signals coming from very cheap components are some times so bad that they don’t look like valid signals. We’ve seen this problem in cheap set-top satellite boxes for years. Recently we have seen some new, localized problems that may be the results of cable companies degrading their signals to get more channels through the same bandwidth. Bargain DVD players can send out signals that the Casablanca does not cope with. We are not done checking out the possible causes of “glitches” but these are some that we do know about.

People want to know why our expensive unit is not designed to cope with bad input, and some of them sound kind of indignant about it, understandably.

The Casablanca can be designed with a wider acceptance for what it regards as an acceptable signal. This widening of the input parameters compromises sonic quality. (I can explain this, but not without getting technical.)

We want to offer you choices so that your Casablanca can cope with bad signals but still deliver the best possible sound on the good ones.

Steve B. has posted some of the results that he has been getting with a kit we sent to him to help us test.

We are very grateful to Steve for his help in this, by the way.

Evelyn

Evelyn, thanks for the good info.

http://www.avrev.com/news/0407/12.hdcpspec047.shtml
The Audio Revolution, Inc.

title:
Intel Finally Releases HDCP Copy Protection Spec To AV Companies
date:
April 12, 2007

Consumers, dealers and AV manufacturers worldwide have been pulling their hair out over the problems that have been associated with the new HDMI connectivity that is associated with most HDTV related devices ranging from projectors, plasmas and other flat TVs to HD devices like cable boxes, satellite DVR as well as Blu-ray and HD DVD players.

Simply put, when HDMI is used on its own (without the HDCP copy protection) it works like a champ. It’s one cable for video and audio that plugs in nicely and works reliably. When the HDCP protection is added, the problems start for dealers, integrators and consumers alike. Receivers with less than stellar chipsets struggle to maintain steady signal pass through. Cables of lesser quality also cause problems. It has been the unknown specs from Intel that make it hard – if not impossible – to make one HD copy protected component speak to the next.

Sources close to the publication say that Intel has recently released the actual specification for HDCP copy protection so that companies that make AV gear, HDTVs, computer monitors and beyond can start to augment their products so that any source will reliably and easily plug into any other HDCP component.

The fact that Intel did so badly with HDCP copy protection is a huge blow to consumer and dealer support for the copy protection that Hollywood studios demand in AV gear, and now PCs that have HDTV capability. Hopefully, the release of this spec will create the ability for companies across the industry to make equipment that actually can talk to another HD component in a way that has true ease of use and fantastic feature sets.

sounds to me like HDCP is in the way

I had no idea that Intel had up until now kept the HDCP spec under-wraps (if that is not to much of an exaggeration of the situation) I doubt that this will end the whole HDMI connectivity debacle but it is one less reason (or perhaps one less excuse depending on your view point) for different products not integrating with each other correctly.

The words of Parasound's President might be a considered a little blunt for public release but they echo the opinions I have been given off the record from a number of manufacturers and industry folks. The Intel issue does lend some credence to what some people have been complaining about. I would be especially interested to hear people's thoughts on this; how have manufacturers coped up until now without having the spec of HDCP from Intel? Presumably there have been guidelines available or at least something to steer companies in the right direction? I mean, they have not just been flying blind right?

Regards,

Sean

Any time frame for the 1.3 HDMI board ?

Evelyn Sinclair of Theta Digital has answered me on a private message and she has asked me to post her reply on this forum.


Question:
Are the HDCP issues with HDMI effecting only the development of the HDMI 1.3 card for the Valis, or also the HDMI 1.2 switcher/extender?

Answer:
From input from our dealers, and especially from the AVS forum, we decided not to do a 1.2 switcher / extender, because too few people wanted it. They were saying they could just buy a cheap switcher.

We hope to build a complete HDMI 1.3 audio/video solution for Valis and for Casablanca, not just a switcher.

The HDCP issues are affecting our readiness to build both pieces, but there's so much wrong with HDMI that we can't identify which are the HDCP issues and which are the HDMI issues, with absolute certainty.

We hope to build a complete HDMI 1.3 audio/video solution for Valis and for Casablanca, not just a switcher.

I'm very happy to hear this as it was my vote to wait for HDMI 1.3 so that we could enjoy DTS MA HD, and DD TruHD with one upgrade.

One almost has to come up with a way to secure HDMI cables. That gives me an idea. I'm off to the patent office :)

One of the biggest weaknesses of HDMI anything is how fragile the connection to the PCB is. It can be damaged very easily. Dish Network is having so many failures from this design that they are modifying the standard so as to make this interface more robust.

I know the HDMI died on my Tosh HD-DVD player so I am using the component outs for now.

With all the issues from HDMI and HDCP you would have thought that it would have been fixed by now. :( Even if it works nearly flawless it still may not be up to Thetas' sound quality expectations.

I think it is going to be a while before we have the decoder boards in our CBIII's.

There are hardly any players out with 1.3 so I can wait. IIRC only 2, one PS3 and one Tosh HD-DVD.

One of the biggest weaknesses of HDMI anything is how fragile the connection to the PCB is. It can be damaged very easily.
Allen,

There's nothing in the HDMI standard that specifies how the wire is connected to the PCB.

You can't disparage HDMI in general because you encountered examples of shoddy design
by a couple of manufacturers.

HDMI is a big mistake we are going to be paying for for a long time. As a mechanical matter it is a disaster. The whole industry will be dealing with equipment failures simply due to the weak connector, and this is in addition to some of the audio faults designers and engineers are now beginning to find. It reminds me of S- Video. Ever try to plug one of those into the back panel of a device when you can't see it?

Morbius

IIRC the HDMI standard is the design of the receptacle. It has to meet HDMI standards so it is limited in how big it can be and all those connections are also limited due to the physical size of the receptacle. Dish Network is redesigning this receptacle so as to be more robust.

If you wiggle a RCA connector nothing happens if you wiggle an HDMI connect it cracks and fails. It takes very little effort to break an HDMI connector from the PCB.

To make matters worse if you need one of those beefy HDMI cables because you have a long run from source to display these cables are heavy. Guess what happens when you hook it up? Tink! the PCB cracks then no HDMI info. This is really a bad standard and not just physically.

I found also that the JVC rs1 has the HDMI inputs too close together to allow larger HDMI cables to be input together. Yes a design flaw on JVC's part but you never had this problem with other types of inputs.

I can see an new input design happening again. It is the installers that killed DVI due to it's super wide configuration. The same for S video due to it's awful and fragile configuration. Hdmi is next. It is designed by folks who live in the computer world. These folks are used to having to put up with unreliable and buggy crap. Not the folks best suited to implementing a new standard IMO.

In the computer world it is expected to bring out something and make it obsolete by next year with something else. In the AV world we need better designs that have some adaptability and will be around for 5 years or more. Folks cannot afford to keep replacing stuff every year. To think otherwise is not realistic.

Hdmi 1.3 is still flawed and they even admit it. IIRC HDMI 1.4 will address the weak and flawed connection interface. It was intended to happen in 1.3 but did not. HDMI has from the get go been a BETA testers nightmare. Sadly the consumer and the AV installers have been the BETA testers without any financial compensation.

So here we are.

Everyone wants 1.3 but really 1.4 will be the one we need. Guess how much stuff will be tossed aside because the HDMI standards group can't get it right for what ever reason?

IIRC the HDMI standard is the design of the receptacle. It has to meet HDMI standards so it is limited in how big it can be and all those connections are also limited due to the physical size of the receptacle. Dish Network is redesigning this receptacle so as to be more robust.

If you wiggle a RCA connector nothing happens if you wiggle an HDMI connect it cracks and fails. It takes very little effort to break an HDMI connector from the PCB.
Allen,

Again you don't understand.

The HDMI standard only has to do with the number of pins and how far apart they are....

There's nothing in the HDMI standard that forces a company to make a fragile connector.

It's like saying you have to redo the RCA connection standard because some company
makes crappy RCA connectors. As you point out, there are good RCA connectors out there.
There are also lousy RCA connectors. But you don't have to rewrite the standard to make
a good connector - others have done it right.

All Dish Network has to do is get their connectors from someone that makes good connectors.
They don't need to rewrite the standard.

The standard doesn't tell you how to make the connector. It just tells you how many pins,
what their geometry is, and what signal each pin carries. It doesn't say that you have to
make an HDMI connector that is so fragile that it breaks when you wiggle it.

If the connector breaks when you wiggle it - it's cheap weak, poor quality plastic. There's
NOTHING in the HDMI standard that says, "For this part - use poor quality plastic".

Morbius

The industry MUST have a standard dimension for this HDMI plug otherwise they would be all different sizes, NO?

I should have been more clear for the Anal retentive crowd who need it spelled out in absolute terms.

While there must be a standard for the receptacle and the plug, I also think that someone could build a more robust receptacle that the standard plug would interface perfectly into. Thus what Dish Network said to me at CES.

Is this better?

Sheesh.

My point was that this thing sucks as an consumer interface as it is fragile and not well thought out IMO.

I am not saying that the standard must be dumped and another invented, although this may ultimately happen. I just wish some one with higher expectations then the computer crowd have some solid input. Computer geeks don't do such a good job when it comes to reliability and robustness, again IMO.

It does not need to be this way but there seems to be a rush to manufacture and the world ends up being PAYING BETA TESTERS.

These issues could be easily found if they were not willing to shove this beta tester thing down our throats.

I think this off topic part is pretty much beat to death.

Next Rant. ....... Anyone? :)

An interesting thought. Video processing circuitry runs at a very high clock rate and therefore generates a reasonable amount of ground noise. It is much better to have your audio DAC in a clean enclosure where the video noise doesn't have a chance to affect the audio signal-to-noise ratio. Since the RadianceXD is targeted at enthusiast and high-end theaters, it makes more sense to me to keep audio separate. In fact I am thinking the lower price point of Radiance will not have audio except for HDMI in and out. Since our delay is short, the ability to delay all the audio source is not so important, and most of our customers have very good amplifiers/receivers to switch and process audio.

In fact, audio is only in the Radiance as a competitive feature. In my opinion, video and audio should always be kept separate. I consider myself an audiophile, and it pains me to see that the only way to get uncompressed multichannel audio is through HDMI. With the extra jitter this incurs it is quite possible that this uncompressed stream sounds worse than current DD and DTS streams through SPDIF. As discussed earlier in this thread, HDMI will likely add jitter to the audio stream. An excellent amp can have circuitry to reduce this jitter to some degree, but this is usually reserved for very high-end equipment. It is better to have a low-jitter clock in the first place.

Since HDMI is the way these non-compressed formats are being supported, HD DVD and Blu-ray player should have two HDMI outputs. One for the video, and one for audio. The audio HDMI output should use the audio clock with blank video at some rate that makes sense using the audio clock. Using the audio clock would allow the jitter to be reduced.

Vendors could even design HDMI parts optimized for audio using the audio clock. If they did, the HDMI connection could have even lower jitter than SPDIF. This is because the audio clock could use the differential clock pair of HDMI. and since the audio is not encoded onto a single wire, this clock would get two benefits: Differential clock and dedicated clock wires.

__________________
Jim Peterson
Lumagen
Report Post

This was posted from Jim at Lumagen, one of the top names in video processing. I copied this post and pasted here. You would have to assume that Jim has no financial interested in surround processors and is just giving an honest opinion. I keep thinking this HDMI thing may not be so good for audio.

Morbius

The industry MUST have a standard dimension for this HDMI plug otherwise they would be all different sizes, NO?

I should have been more clear for the Anal retentive crowd who need it spelled out in absolute terms.

While there must be a standard for the receptacle and the plug, I also think that someone could build a more robust receptacle that the standard plug would interface perfectly into. Thus what Dish Network said to me at CES.

Is this better?

Sheesh.

My point was that this thing sucks as an consumer interface as it is fragile and not well thought out IMO.

I am not saying that the standard must be dumped and another invented, although this may ultimately happen. I just wish some one with higher expectations then the computer crowd have some solid input. Computer geeks don't do such a good job when it comes to reliability and robustness, again IMO.

It does not need to be this way but there seems to be a rush to manufacture and the world ends up being PAYING BETA TESTERS.

These issues could be easily found if they were not willing to shove this beta tester thing down our throats.

I think this off topic part is pretty much beat to death.

Next Rant. ....... Anyone? :)

Translation: Another reason why HDMI, which has already become the standard for digital transmission in any product that aspires to any combination of audio and video, isn't really missed by its absence in any Theta product.

The title of this thread was an obvious attempt to nudge Theta toward HDMI implementation. I'll again propose a $500 wager, to be held by a neutral party, that there won't be any Theta manufactured HDMI input in any Casablanca this year.

By the way, for those who care about such things, Blu-ray and HD-DVD discs continue to get better and more plentiful.

Nick :cool:

I am not saying that the standard must be dumped and another invented, although this may ultimately happen. I just wish some one with higher expectations then the computer crowd have some solid input. Computer geeks don't do such a good job when it comes to reliability and robustness, again IMO.I must take slight issue with this... we computer geeks (or at least me) were quite content with DVI, which gives me a far more solid and secure connection than HDMI. For whatever reason the marketing geniuses decided they needed a smaller less secure connector for the CE market... nevermind that they already had one that worked well, it was just too big. Bah.

"By the way, for those who care about such things, Blu-ray and HD-DVD discs continue to get better and more plentiful. "

And sound better over HDMI then S/PDIF too. :)

Shawn

"By the way, for those who care about such things, Blu-ray and HD-DVD discs continue to get better and more plentiful. "

And sound better over HDMI then S/PDIF too. :)

Shawn

Here's a question: would uncompressed audio over HDMI into some other pre/pro be an upgrade over spdif going into a CB3 with Xtreme DACs?

In other words, is HDMI available in a pre/pro that rivals the CB3, or are we pretty much talking inexpensive receivers?

Ian,

"Here's a question: would uncompressed audio over HDMI into some other pre/pro be an upgrade over spdif going into a CB3 with Xtreme DACs?"

Very likely, ultimately everything is basically limited to what the source can do. Lossy compression doesn't sound as good as uncompressed audio. CDs sound better then MP3s.

Witness the Theta owners using the DACs in their players for MCHR into Six Shooters as compared to lossy over S/PDIF through the XTreme DACs. Going LPCM into another pre-pro also offers processing advantages too which can effect the final outcome.

"or are we pretty much talking inexpensive receivers?"

No, the Lexicon MC-12HD and the various Anthems' can accept multichannel LPCM over HDMI. In Bob's setup you were hearing LPCM over HDMI. Hard to judge LPCM/HDMI in that sort of thing though since it was an unfamiliar room/setup. Halcro is supposed to be offering an updated in the near future too though it has been promised for about 6 months now.

Shawn

I guess I figured you say that. I'm still somewhat skeptical... I've auditioned a Lexicon and found it didn't compare to the Theta and am very particular about sound. I'd prefer an MP3 (at least with a decent bit rate) into my Theta versus a CD (or SACD) into something average, but that's just me.

Wish I could do an A/B... Is the Anthem considered to be superior to the Lex?

Wish I could do an A/B... Is the Anthem considered to be superior to the Lex?

Sonically, no..not even close.

Translation: Another reason why HDMI, which has already become the standard for digital transmission in any product that aspires to any combination of audio and video, isn't really missed by its absence in any Theta product.

The title of this thread was an obvious attempt to nudge Theta toward HDMI implementation. I'll again propose a $500 wager, to be held by a neutral party, that there won't be any Theta manufactured HDMI input in any Casablanca this year.

By the way, for those who care about such things, Blu-ray and HD-DVD discs continue to get better and more plentiful.

Nick :cool:
If being first is what you care about then this is important. Sound quality and what one considers acceptable QUALITY are different issues. We all do not have the same standards. That much is apparent. Lots of Japanese AV receivers will have HMDI sooner as well but some don't care.

Sonically, no..not even close.
So the Lexicon is better than the Anthem? Hmm, that's the first time I read that Lexicon was actually superior to another processor.

So the Lexicon is better than the Anthem? Hmm, that's the first time I read that Lexicon was actually superior to another processor.

Lexicon is superior to Theta, too.. As it can digitally accept and post process the next gen surround sound algorythyms and not rely on $1 DACs in the various players to for D/A conversion. THe new codecs render the THeta as simply an expenisve pass through with an expensive addon (6S). If you have a Toshiba HD DVD and you are running lossless tracks, Theta's sound is actually Toshiba's sound!! :eek: Pass through only and no sign of HDMI....it has been passed by. THeta is a great piece for lossy digital...but that is sooo yesterday!

How is Lex's HDMI 1.1 input better than SPDIF input on a Casablanca3?

Lexicon does not decode TruHD or DTS MA HD at this time. The Casablanca can play DD+ and DTS tracks labeled as DTS HD just fine (you just don't get TruHD or the full benefits of DTS MA HD decoding). But it is coming. How's the Halcro doing on TruHD and DTS MA HD by the way?

"How is Lex's HDMI 1.1 input better than SPDIF input on a Casablanca3?"

Because it can digitally transmit and process the full high resolution multi-channel soundtracks on DVD-A, SACD, HD-DVD and BluRay.

You can't do any of that over S/PDIF.

"Lexicon does not decode TruHD or DTS MA HD at this time. "

No it doesn't, the player does the decoding and spits it out in full high resolution over HDMI.

"The Casablanca can play DD+ and DTS tracks labeled as DTS HD just fine"

No, it is done in regular DTS. So you take a lossy compression format (DD+), decode it in the player, then the player compresses it again with another lossy compression format (DTS) and spits that out over S/PDIF.

Shawn

". We all do not have the same standards. That much is apparent."

Absolutely, some people are happy with the sound of their $500 player, some want more then that.

Shawn

Because it can digitally transmit and process the full high resolution multi-channel soundtracks on DVD-A, SACD, HD-DVD and BluRay.

You can't do any of that over S/PDIF.

So according to your post, a 5.1 DD+ soundtrack on a HD DVD will sound better on a MC12 how? Both HDMI and SPDIF act as a pass through... there is no decoding from the player. Correct?

Please define "full resolution" over HDMI.

"The Casablanca can play DD+ and DTS tracks labeled as DTS HD just fine"

No, it is done in regular DTS. So you take a lossy compression format (DD+), decode it in the player, then the player compresses it again with another lossy compression format (DTS) and spits that out over S/PDIF.

Shawn

Im my case, I listen to everything via Coaxial SPDIF. I am not using a player to decode the DD+ then re-encode it. On X-men 3 Blu Ray I pick DTS MA HD, and listen to it via SPDIF into my CB3. It is just DTS, as the CB3 does not do DTS MA HD at the moment.

I'll take the Xtreme DACS and Theta's DTS/DD decoding over Lex any day. I have access to both.

"So according to your post, a 5.1 DD+ soundtrack on a HD DVD will sound better on a MC12 how? Both HDMI and SPDIF act as a pass through... there is no decoding from the player. Correct?"

Not correct.

On the Lexicon the DD+ soundtrack is decoded in the player back to multichannel LPCM and then the LPCM is spit over HDMI as 6 discrete channels.

DD+ is not spit out as a pass through on S/PDIF, that is not allowed by Dolby. In some players they decode the DD+ back to LPCM then lossy recompress those channels again with DTS and spit that out over S/PDIF. Recompressing with a lossy compression format (DTS) is throwing away audio information. Other players might just spit out the core DD data but none spit out DD+ over S/PDIF... not allowed.

Likewise if you take a non-lossy compressed format such as Dolby TrueHD, DVD-A or simply the straight uncompressed LPCM tracks on BluRay those tracks can be passed intact as multichannel LPCM over HDMI. Can't even remotely do that on S/PDIF... it is limited to 2 channels uncompressed.

"Please define "full resolution" over HDMI."

Whatever the source started at without additional lossy compression being applied on top of it.

Shawn

So according to your post, a 5.1 DD+ soundtrack on a HD DVD will sound better on a MC12 how?S/PDIF can't handle DD+. So, if you're forced to use S/PDIF, the player must either use a lower-quality back-compatible DD track, or apply lossy compression of the decoded DD+ track. Either way the source material is compromised.Both HDMI and SPDIF act as a pass through...No. HDMI 1.3a will be the only true pass-through connection available for high-resolution DD+ and DTS-HD material in the sense that it will be the only format that doesn't need to modify the raw bitstream. All others must do some sort of conversion. But with HDMI, the DD+ or DTS-HD track can be transmitted as a fully decoded LPCM stream with no quality loss. Not so with S/PDIF, which must recompress that data in a lossy fashion to DD or DTS form. Not that this can't sound fine, but it is not the same level of quality as the original.Please define "full resolution" over HDMI.It means exactly what it says. HDMI can carry full-resolution LPCM data at up tp 24-bit, 96kHz, 8 channels, with no compression needed (lossy or lossless). S/PDIF cannot make that claim.

"Lexicon does not decode TruHD or DTS MA HD at this time. "

No it doesn't, the player does the decoding and spits it out in full high resolution over HDMI.

"The Casablanca can play DD+ and DTS tracks labeled as DTS HD just fine"

No, it is done in regular DTS. So you take a lossy compression format (DD+), decode it in the player, then the player compresses it again with another lossy compression format (DTS) and spits that out over S/PDIF.

Shawn

So internal decoding by a cheap player is fine to support your argument of HDMI output, but it's not ok for the SPDIF?

So internal decoding by a cheap player is fine to support your argument of HDMI output, but it's not ok for the SPDIF?That is correct, because S/PDIF doesn't have enough bandwidth to handle the decoded data. Therefore, with S/PDIF you have to take an additional step of recompressing the data in a lossy fashion. The bottom line is that you're not getting full source quality with S/PDIF.

Before the advent of HDMI the only way to get full source quality for multichannel high-resolution material over S/PDIF was to gang use mulitple simultaneous S/PDIF or AES/SBU connections. This is the approach taken, for example, by the old TacT TCS hardware.

"Im my case, I listen to everything via Coaxial SPDIF. I am not using a player to decode the DD+ then re-encode it."

Yes, you are. You just don't know it....

"I'll take the Xtreme DACS and Theta's DTS/DD decoding over Lex any day. I have access to both."

Good for you. Once you actually hear the tracks in full high resolution you might change your mind.... witness the Theta owners (Steve and Bulldogger for example) using their players DACs and SixShooters because the high resolution soundtracks sound better then what you are getting over S/PDIF even with the Xtreme DACs.

Shawn

Jim, you really are missing out. I don't think you can easily discount the fact that Steve, Bulldogger, FrantzM, and others have raved about the sound quality of the Toshiba HD-DVD player's internal DACs. It is currently the only way they can achieve full source resolution with their gear---and the only way you can, too.

"So internal decoding by a cheap player is fine to support your argument of HDMI output, but it's not ok for the SPDIF?"

Absolutely. HDMI can transmit up to 8 channels of LPCM at 96/24. S/PDIF can handle 2.

Like it or not you are not hearing the soundtracks in their highest quality over S/PDIF... you are hearing compromised material. Only way to hear it in full high resolution is either over HDMI in which case you can use your pre-pros post-processing, DACs and line stages or via multichannel analog outputs on the player in which case you are using the players post-processing, DACs and line stages.

Shawn

In that case... Hurry up Theta!

My other option is $5,000.00 for 2 Six Shooters and cables.

"In that case... Hurry up Theta!"

Exactly!

That is why Steve started this thread......

Shawn

If being first is what you care about then this is important. Sound quality and what one considers acceptable QUALITY are different issues. We all do not have the same standards. That much is apparent. Lots of Japanese AV receivers will have HMDI sooner as well but some don't care.

Well, you're really talking about two different things, but it's the old "golden ears" argument that is really just so boring. And as much as I detest resorting to the type of statement I'm about to make, I think I'll do it anyway:

Speakers: Revel Ultima Salons, Revel Voice, Revel Embrace (4)
Amplifiers: Halcro MC20(2), MC30(1)
Subwoofers: Velodyne HGS-18 (2)

My choice of surrround processor/preamp? Lexicon MC-12HD EQ (those last two letters signify something else--like HDMI-- foreign to owners of Theta gear).

Do you still think I don't care about sound quality? Or is that just a way of justifying a preference for a product produced by a company that just really can't evolve or compete?

Nick :cool:

Jim, you really are missing out. I don't think you can easily discount the fact that Steve, Bulldogger, FrantzM, and others have raved about the sound quality of the Toshiba HD-DVD player's internal DACs. It is currently the only way they can achieve full source resolution with their gear---and the only way you can, too.
Not me. I stand alone on this one. I think the Toshiba is OK. If you feed the CBIII a 24/48 signal like the AC/DC Dual disk I have, and then play the same disk in the Toshiba for comparison via analog outs, the CBIII walks all over the Toshiba HD-DVD player. Damn I love AC/DC!!!! :) Dolby Digital sucks. I have never been impressed with the sound quality. So yeah, anything running DD is not going to be so great compared to something running higher resolution. I never said the the Toshiba did not sound better running through the Six Shooter with Dolby Digital Plus than the CBIII running straight Dolby Digital. What I have maintained is that I am not impressed with the Toshiba compared to what other player and the CBIII can do with even CD quality sound which DD is not. As soon as higher end HD-DVD players hit the market or perhaps the Halcro gets LPCM over HDMI, guys are going to start tor realize the Toshiba is just mid-fi.

Well, you're really talking about two different things, but it's the old "golden ears" argument that is really just so boring. And as much as I detest resorting to the type of statement I'm about to make, I think I'll do it anyway:

Speakers: Revel Ultima Salons, Revel Voice, Revel Embrace (4)
Amplifiers: Halcro MC20(2), MC30(1)
Subwoofers: Velodyne HGS-18 (2)

My choice of surrround processor/preamp? Lexicon MC-12HD EQ (those last two letters signify something else--like HDMI-- foreign to owners of Theta gear).

Do you still think I don't care about sound quality? Or is that just a way of justifying a preference for a product produced by a company that just really can't evolve or compete?

Nick :cool:
Well, if you are asking, I am sincere . I was well aware of what you are running which is some great stuff. I can not fathom you keeping the Lexicon with the resolution that your system is capable of if you ever inserted a better pre/pro or pre-amp.