That's exactly the sort of thing I'm wondering. Whenever I've compared other players' (or processors) DACs against the Theta they've come up short.

Lexicon is superior to Theta, too.. As it can digitally accept and post process the next gen surround sound algorythyms and not rely on $1 DACs in the various players to for D/A conversion. THe new codecs render the THeta as simply an expenisve pass through with an expensive addon (6S). If you have a Toshiba HD DVD and you are running lossless tracks, Theta's sound is actually Toshiba's sound!! :eek: Pass through only and no sign of HDMI....it has been passed by. THeta is a great piece for lossy digital...but that is sooo yesterday!
You have a personal axe to grind with Theta.

In that case... Hurry up Theta!

My other option is $5,000.00 for 2 Six Shooters and cables.
Pre/pros are a compromise, all of them. They are not really separates, just too much stuff under the hood. Dacs, pre-amp, suround processing and dsp, video switching and processing are all in the same box. I predict that if a high end HD-DVD player or hopefully universal player is released, it is still going to sound better in combination with the Six Shooter than any pre/pro in a well treated room with equalized subs.

You have a personal axe to grind with Theta.The only reason you're forced to resort to statements like that is because you can't actually refute what he posted.

Sanjay

Bulldogger, I stand corrected re: your opinion of the Toshiba... but at least you do seem to support the notion that Toshiba's analog is better than a recompressed S/PDIF stream...

It's true.....the Theta is simply a $15K pass through for lossless movie sound.

internal decoding by a cheap player...A quick FYI about format recognition and decoding: whether the compressed/packed signal is being decoded in a Mark Levinson No.40 or a Walmart HTiB, the results of the decoding will be the same. We're talking licensed technology here; not anything proprietary to certain manufacturers.

It's like someone claiming their super expensive computer can unzip a document better than a low priced model. Both will give you the exact same results. It's everything that follows the decoding stage that makes for differences you hear: DACs, analogue circuitry, etc.

So for audio, it doesn't matter if you're using a cheap player to decode lossy and lossless signals to PCM. What's important is that you pour that raw PCM data (at full resolution, while still in digital form) into your CB3 and let it handle the rest ("the rest" = everything from Theta's unique bass management to their D/A conversion).

That's how you take full advantage of all the technology in your CB3. Not by sending it a lower resolution signal and certainly not by bypassing it altogether. I can't understand why some Theta owners view HDMI with such disdain instead of wanting it ASAP.

Sanjay

"It's true.....the Theta is simply a $15K pass through for lossless movie sound."

For high resolution sources it is actually a $15k remote control for a $2k analog pre-amp.

Shawn

(quoting Jim Peterson of Lumagen) I consider myself an audiophile, and it pains me to see that the only way to get uncompressed multichannel audio is through HDMI. With the extra jitter this incurs it is quite possible that this uncompressed stream sounds worse than current DD and DTS streams through SPDIF. As discussed earlier in this thread, HDMI will likely add jitter to the audio stream.

With all due respect to Jim, this is not only speculation (he even says so!), but also reflects a misunderstanding of how HDMI works and a mindset that's used to S/PDIF's totally broken clocking scheme. HDMI transmits audio in packets that have to go through a complicated decoding scheme due to HDMI's DRM, and cannot add jitter in the way S/PDIF can.

--Andre

Well, if you are asking, I am sincere . I was well aware of what you are running which is some great stuff. I can not fathom you keeping the Lexicon with the resolution that your system is capable of if you ever inserted a better pre/pro or pre-amp.

Prior to the Revels, I used Aerial 10ts, CC5, etc. After moving from a Citation 7.0, my choice was between the Proceed PAV/PDSD, the Theta, and a Krell piece. After listening tests between the Proceed and the Theta (I couldn't listen to the Krell), I chose the Proceed.

The Proceed was actually an outstanding sonic piece, but its architecture was flawed and I saw that I was going to have to change out to keep up with the times. I then went to the Krell, and then an upgraded Krell (the HTS2, something like that). All the while I was using Krell amplifiers, and only changed those out after listening to the difference that Halcro offered.

About five years ago, I first heard the Lexicon MC-12 in my system. Subjectively, it was the best I'd heard of any of the pieces I'd ever listened to, particularly because of a fondness for surround music I'd developed since owning the Citation.

On top of what I perceived to be its superior sonic qualities, it was the most reliable component I'd owned. It has been steadily upgraded, and supported in a manner that only a well-capitalized company can offer such support. But I reiterate that my primary reason for owning it is that it offers the best sound I have heard in mine or other systems. And that means music on a primary basis, with movies on a secondary basis.

Having said all that, I'll make a general observation that so many of us have great systems, which should sound great, and I won't quibble seriously with someone who says that their preference is different than mine. That is the realm within which reasonable people can disagree, and I don't like wasting time over what amounts to subjectivity. What is obnoxious are claims that elevate subjective opinion to objective fact. So we really have to define what can and can't be discusssed objectively before anything truly productive can be said.

While I will hardly argue with someone who says that they prefer Theta's sound to Lexicon's, I will just call it ignorant to suggest that someone can't legitimately prefer Lexicon--I know that I do, and it isn't because I haven't heard or listened to others, it's because I heard greater refinement and dimension (words I hate using in a discussion like this, because they're so flabby . . . but they're true, to me, at least) from Lexicon than from others.

HDMI happens to be a very objective area. You either have it or you don't, and whether you have it dictates what capacities you have. But, c'mon, even if you love Theta's sound, do you really buy the nonsense that's getting spewed over "why" they don't have it? Take a serious read on the threads of what HDMI 1.3 really offers over 1.1--living in a practical world--and then tell me that Theta's explanations pass the initial smell test, or whether they're just a small company lacking the ability to implement it in an architecture that's from a different time.

Nick :cool:

I have a question on the future of transporting video.

There has been some significant investment in a company called Amimon by many major electronic corporations due to their development of a wireless uncompressed High-Definition video solution. The company at the moment doesn't sell any consumer based products and only sells IC's to OEM's. From what I understand. we should be expecting products that integrate this wireless solution this fall, with more to come in the beginning of next year.


I haven't seen a demo of the amimon solution but from what I have read it works very well. I have also read that Amimon is working on consumer based solutions for those who want to transmit video straight from any source to a monitor.

If this is the case and a wireless video solution turns out to be a success wouldn't it make HDMI a moot point???

I am willing to bet that the public would prefer a wireless based video solution (especially those with projectors) to any wired based solution, especially if it is a true lossless solution with insignificant latency. I could be wrong, but a solution of this type would make HDMI, or any other hardwire based video solution, Obsolete and it would do so quickly. In the end, we would be back to isolating audio from video as opposed to integrating them on 1 cable. At that point, it seems to me that any new audio formats would need to use an existing audio transport or, most likely, find a new one.

Personally, I prefer to keep video separate from my audio, as I currently do with my casablanca III. Audio goes to my casablanca, video goes straight to the projector from any source. I understand that I 'm Unable to take advantage of the latest audio formats (Unless I purchase a 6 shooter) but at the moment I don't think it's a big deal, especially since there is so little content that takes advantage of the latest formats

Going forward, I would prefer a bullet proof wireless video solution that would take video from the source and transmit it direct to my monitor and let my monitor do the switching. This would eliminate the need for video cables altogether.

I could be missing something, but it seems to me like this would be a much better solution than having to put up with all the HDMI issues.

On the wireless side of things: I'm sure they will do testing and all. But my experience with wireless streaming of movies was terrible. Everytime my wife answered the home cordless phone it interfered with my wireless Sonicwall security appliance. My movies would stop all together and the computer would loose it's network connection. I had tried multiple wireless NIC cards. The next step was to test cordless phones. I decided to just run a CAT6 cable and problem was solved.

If this is an example of things to come, I'm not anxious to jump on the band wagon. If a movie is 2-3 hours long. That is a long time for it to have to run perfect. I hope we get there soon. But I just don't have confidence yet.

The only reason you're forced to resort to statements like that is because you can't actually refute what he posted.

Sanjay
He does in fact have a personal grudge against Theta.

He does in fact have a personal grudge against Theta.

Nice dodging of the question...

Oh c'mon...a grudge against Theta?? Why would I care? They probably haven't even sold CBIII in over a year as there is still no announced master plan for it.


Theta is simply no better in terms of technology than my first big time processor, the Citation 7.0, which is over 10 years old: analog ins, component switching, SPDIF in, no HDMI, etc. They are company content on being years behind the curve. It is a music piece hiding in a surround processor's clothing.


It's true.....the Theta is simply a $15K pass through for lossless movie sound.

For high resolution sources it is actually a $15k remote control for a $2k analog pre-amp.


The only reason you're forced to resort to statements like that is because you can't actually refute what he posted.

Do you disagree? Obviously you agree that for HD DVD and Blu Ray lossless sound, it is and will be a $15K pass through that sounds only as good as the cheap player feeding it.

Prior to the Revels, I used Aerial 10ts, CC5, etc. After moving from a Citation 7.0, my choice was between the Proceed PAV/PDSD, the Theta, and a Krell piece. After listening tests between the Proceed and the Theta (I couldn't listen to the Krell), I chose the Proceed.

The Proceed was actually an outstanding sonic piece, but its architecture was flawed and I saw that I was going to have to change out to keep up with the times. I then went to the Krell, and then an upgraded Krell (the HTS2, something like that). All the while I was using Krell amplifiers, and only changed those out after listening to the difference that Halcro offered.

About five years ago, I first heard the Lexicon MC-12 in my system. Subjectively, it was the best I'd heard of any of the pieces I'd ever listened to, particularly because of a fondness for surround music I'd developed since owning the Citation.

On top of what I perceived to be its superior sonic qualities, it was the most reliable component I'd owned. It has been steadily upgraded, and supported in a manner that only a well-capitalized company can offer such support. But I reiterate that my primary reason for owning it is that it offers the best sound I have heard in mine or other systems. And that means music on a primary basis, with movies on a secondary basis.

Having said all that, I'll make a general observation that so many of us have great systems, which should sound great, and I won't quibble seriously with someone who says that their preference is different than mine. That is the realm within which reasonable people can disagree, and I don't like wasting time over what amounts to subjectivity. What is obnoxious are claims that elevate subjective opinion to objective fact. So we really have to define what can and can't be discusssed objectively before anything truly productive can be said.

While I will hardly argue with someone who says that they prefer Theta's sound to Lexicon's, I will just call it ignorant to suggest that someone can't legitimately prefer Lexicon--I know that I do, and it isn't because I haven't heard or listened to others, it's because I heard greater refinement and dimension (words I hate using in a discussion like this, because they're so flabby . . . but they're true, to me, at least) from Lexicon than from others.

HDMI happens to be a very objective area. You either have it or you don't, and whether you have it dictates what capacities you have. But, c'mon, even if you love Theta's sound, do you really buy the nonsense that's getting spewed over "why" they don't have it? Take a serious read on the threads of what HDMI 1.3 really offers over 1.1--living in a practical world--and then tell me that Theta's explanations pass the initial smell test, or whether they're just a small company lacking the ability to implement it in an architecture that's from a different time.

Nick :cool:
I owned the Proceed AVP. It was better to my ears than the Theta CBII with Superior dacs. If it was the CBII with Superior dacs that you tried, then I am not surprised and agree with your decision. When I bought a used CBII with the original Superior dacs and installed it, my wife walked in and I had a look of utter despair on my face. Compared to my Cal audio Labs SSP 2500 which was better than the Proceed, the CBII with Superior dacs was really a let down :( . I was so frustrated and did not know what to do??! WHAT was I going to do? Invest more money in a processor that I did not like? I did not know what to try. The Cal SSP had already clobbered the Krells, and Meridians that I had tried. I took a chance and upgraded it to the CBIII with Superior II dacs. To my surprise, it was now slightly better than the Cal piece! Then I got the Six Shooter. WOW. How could a 2k add on box beat the 5k two channel analog pre-amps that I had available for comparison? This thing can man-handle any pre/pro on the market. I still have not heard a Gen VIII dac but all reviews of it are stellar. I like knowing that my ability to get improved sound is not limited by whats in a pre/pro. Hey if HDMI is the deciding factor for you and not sound QUALITY, then that's fine with me. Just don't taunt Theta owners with 500.00 bets about how long ti will take Theta to addf what my actually be an poor connection for audio . That is why I posted the copy of the guy from Lumagen. What agenda does he have?

"Hey if HDMI is the deciding factor for you and not sound QUALITY, then that's fine with me. "

Nick flat out tells you the Lexicon was the best he has heard of all the pre-pros he has owned and this is what you come back with?

Shawn

"Theta is simply no better in terms of technology than my first big time processor, the Citation 7.0, which is over 10 years old: analog ins, component switching, SPDIF in, no HDMI, etc. They are company content on being years behind the curve." Dolby EX did not even exist in market form ten years ago. The dacs in the Citation are 15 years old. To say that Theta has not advance past a 15 year old design? That's why I did not bother. Did you have really have to stretch it that far? They probably haven't even sold CBIII in over a year as there is still no announced master plan for it. Again not true http://www.thetadigital.com/faqhdmi.htm
"Do you disagree? Obviously you agree that for HD DVD and Blu Ray lossless sound, it is and will be a $15K pass through that sounds only as good as the cheap player feeding it." Of course I do not agree. When HDMI is available I am certain that will will be competitive with everything on the market and superior to most of the market. I am a boxing fan. Fights are seldom decided by who throws the first punch. More often the fight is decided it by who throws the last punch. I think that a lot of the competition is going to be in for an ass whipping before the fight is done.

"If this is the case and a wireless video solution turns out to be a success wouldn't it make HDMI a moot point???"

Probably not. Because if the wireless solution is going to have a chance of being adapted it is going to need to be backwards compatible. In other words you will have a little box at the source (or output of the pre-pro) that plug into the HDMI output of the source/pre-pro. Then another box at the display with an HDMI output to feed the display. The wireless devices will in effect act as a bridge between the HDMI output and HDMI input.

Shawn

"Hey if HDMI is the deciding factor for you and not sound QUALITY, then that's fine with me. "

Nick flat out tells you the Lexicon was the best he has heard of all the pre-pros he has owned and this is what you come back with?

Shawn
Oh, I agree with him. The CBII was not so great with the Superior dacs. I did not like it either. The CBIII with Superior II dacs is much better than anything Lexicon has ever made. I though I was clear. Don't quote me out of context. Judging from the processor that he was comparing I am sure it was the CBII.

Boxing? That wind up is about 2 years long.....and still going! The boxing match is long over..Theta conceded before it even started (like the commercial where the boxer gets knocked out by a microphone dropping on his head:)). I predict, along with Nick, HDMI in a theta is at least a year out (if they make it).... How long can a high end company go without a high end, up to date product? Lexicon and others will likely have 2nd gen HDMI processors before Theta gets past DVI.....is the new Valis HDMI or DVI?

Boxing? That wind up is about 2 years long.....and still going! The boxing match is long over..Theta conceded before it even started (like the commercial where the boxer gets knocked out by a microphone dropping on his head:)). I predict, along with Nick, HDMI in a theta is at least a year out (if they make it).... How long can a high end company go without a high end, up to date product? Lexicon and others will likely have 2nd gen HDMI processors before Theta gets past DVI.....is the new Valis HDMI or DVI?
Did i miss something :p ? Didn't you dump Lexicon for a processor that did not even have even 5.1 HDMI support ? Even still the Halcro was so much better that you would not go back :D. Don't start with the you have already tried a Theta because you have not tried a CBIII with Superior II dacs or higher. I agree with you the CBII is not much better or not at all than the Lex. CBIII, ass kicking.

Actually Halcro has HDMI 7.1 support...and PCM support in the next 2 weeks.

And Theta?

.....But let's get back to the $15K lossless sound pass through processor with no future HDMI support

Actually Halcro has HDMI 7.1 support...and PCM support in the next 2 weeks.

And Theta?
Oh, so what you are saying is that you were willing to wait because you felt it would be worth the wait? Me too. I understand.

.....But let's get back to the $15K lossless sound pass through processor with no future HDMI support
That's a lie. How's that. Sure it may be next year. Fine with me. Six shooter is a bargain.

The Theta CB3 IS kick ass..................................for yesterday's surround formats.......;) Yawn...

He does in fact have a personal grudge against Theta.It doesn't matter whether he does or doesn't. The fact is that you couldn't refute what he posted about the CB3. For hi-rez multi-channel audio, it simply becomes the worlds most expensive remote control. Nothing more.

Look, even if we assume for the sake of this discussion that the Six Shooter is infinitely transparent, the very best thing it can do is get out of the way of the signal by having absolutely no sonic signature of its own. Even with that fantasy assumption, you still end up at the mercy of the DACs and analogue stage of a disc player.

I can't believe you're so thrilled with a solution that completely bypasses the CB3 for your highest resolution source material (DVD-A, SACD, HD DVD, Blu-ray). Wouldn't you want those sources in particular to take full advantage of every inch of circuitry in your CB3? Dolby EX did not even exist in market form ten years ago.It hit the consumer market 8 years ago but took Theta a full 6 years to deliver. And it's not like they were delivering a Superior or Extreme verson of EX decoding. I can understand waiting, but come on. By contrast, the same year EX was announced, it was delivered to consumers by.... well, you know. The CBIII with Superior II dacs is much better than anything Lexicon has ever made.No it's not. As Nick pointed out, you're simply taking your personal preference and stating it as objective fact. And the fact is: you cannot provide any objective data, any measurement, any metric that supports your claim. All you can do is repeat it (asthough doing so will eventually make it reality).

Sanjay

Sanjay, what amaze me is that you are a guy, with almost 8 thousand post on an AV forum yet own speakers that you use with a 12k processor that have about a retail value of about 150.00:D. That takes the cake:D! How can I debate you and take you seriously???? I am being sincere. I can not get past this. I really can not. Nick is valid. I do not however believe he has any experience with the CBIII and Superior II or higher dacs? My experience with the other processor that he has tried mirrors his. If his comments are about a CBII with original dacs, we agree. CBIII though, kicks Lex ass.

Sanjay, what amaze me is that you are a guy, with almost 8 thousand post on an AV forum yet own speakers that you use with a 12k processor that have about a retail value of about 150.00:D. That takes the cake:D! How can I debate you and take you seriously???? I am being sincere. I can not get past this. I really can not. Nick is valid. I do not however believe he has any experience with the CBIII and Superior II or higher dacs? My experience with the other processor that he has tried mirrors his. If his comments are about a CBII with original dacs, we agree. CBIII though, kicks Lex ass.


Look who is talkin!? You have a $15K remote control for lossless movie sound....and think is sounds 'kickass'!!

Your trying to put down Sanjay's system really makes you look bad. When you have no argument, you sink to personal attacks. It is a sad m.o..

Let's not talk down about one's system. Aren't you the guy who cuts out foam and glues it to your walls because and can't buy the real stuff?

Bottom line, Sanjay put things quite eloquently and right on point. For today's lossless sound the CbIII and 6-shooter is a very expensive remote control. It is old and is no better than Nick's and my old Citation 7.0. Perhaps, like surround EX, THeta will take another 6 years to get to HDMi. There brand new Valis is DVI based....talk about a joke!?

Keep telling yourself it sounds 'kickass'....................(and we'll all keep laughing)!:D

Sanjay, what amaze me is that you are a guy, with almost 8 thousand post on an AV forum yet own speakers that you use with a 12k processor that have about a retail value of about 150.00:D. That takes the cake:D! How can I debate you and take you seriously???? I am being sincere. I can not get past this. I really can not. Nick is valid. I do not however believe he has any experience with the CBIII and Superior II or higher dacs? My experience with the other processor that he has tried mirrors his. If his comments are about a CBII with original dacs, we agree. CBIII though, kicks Lex ass.

Leave the poor guy alone, you Bulldogger. He has a preference for $150 speakers.
They must image fantastically for him to be able to hear the surround sound differences among processors! COOL!!@@

THeta will take another 6 years to get to HDMi. There brand new Valis is DVI based....talk about a joke!?

Obviously, since you're related to the great Karnac, what are tonight's winning lottery numbers? Since you can clearly see into the future and know what finished products look like and know the exact time table for Theta to release a HDMI 1.3 solution. While you're at it, when's Halcro's HDMI 1.3a release coming out with TruHD and DTS MA HD with integrated control over HDMI?

What are you objections going to be when Theta does release their HDMI 1.3x?

Especially when we just have to replace a board or 2 at minimal cost. Theta offered to come out with a HDMI 1.1 earlier. We as a collective of "owners" asked to wait for 1.3 and the addition of the HD surround formats. At least that is the consensus I believe was made.

Let's not talk down about one's system. Aren't you the guy who cuts out foam and glues it to your walls because and can't buy the real stuff?


Well what do you call acoustic panels? They are all based on some type of insulation and adhesive.


Oh my goof. No acoustic fabric was mentioned. My mistake. That's the difference between not real and the real stuff.

Look who is talkin!? You have a $15K remote control for lossless movie sound....and think is sounds 'kickass'!!

I think you've been watching the trailer to Transformers too much. Thinking a Casablanca is an Autobot disguised as a remote control.

Silly Rabbit.

How can I debate you...You can't. At least, historically you have been unable to do so on facts. Which is why you and Steve always (ALWAYS) end up resorting to an equipment pissing contest, that too based only on price (not quality, not functionality, not technology, etc). You literally have no place else to go. None. Absolutely zero objective information to debate with.

The last time you couldn't refute what I posted, you ran around the internet trying to find the lowest used prices for any model Kef speakers and then posted them in the thread, asthough that would somehow magically turn your unsupportable claims into facts. In what universe did you actually think that would happen?

It wouldn't matter if my entire audio system consisted of a Bose clock radio. It would not (could not) change the fact that your highest resolution audio sources have to completely bypass your CB3, rendering it the worlds most expensive remote control. And unless your Six Shooter is embellishing the audio that goes through it, the sound quality of your sources is still at the mercy of the DACs and analogue circuitry of a disc player.

So go ahead and post anything you want about my system or me (your typical next step is ad hominem attacks). The more you do, the more obvious you make it that you cannot debate the actual issue. Nice try. Better luck next time.

Sanjay

He has a preference for $150 speakers.No, no, no... My 7 speakers and 3 subs don't add up to that much, even at list price.

Sanjay

Look who is talkin!? You have a $15K remote control for lossless movie sound....and think is sounds 'kickass'!!

Your trying to put down Sanjay's system really makes you look bad. When you have no argument, you sink to personal attacks. It is a sad m.o..

Let's not talk down about one's system. Aren't you the guy who cuts out foam and glues it to your walls because and can't buy the real stuff?

Bottom line, Sanjay put things quite eloquently and right on point. For today's lossless sound the CbIII and 6-shooter is a very expensive remote control. It is old and is no better than Nick's and my old Citation 7.0. Perhaps, like surround EX, THeta will take another 6 years to get to HDMi. There brand new Valis is DVI based....talk about a joke!?

Keep telling yourself it sounds 'kickass'....................(and we'll all keep laughing)!:D

Jeff, you are a corker, aren't you? I had a Citation 7.0, which I replaced with the Theta CB first version back in 1997. To day the CB3 and Six Shooter is no better than that is simply ludicrous and very bland at best. Give me a break!!@@@

"The CBIII with Superior II dacs is much better than anything Lexicon has ever made. "

In your opinion.

In case you missed it Nick listens to music in surround, as do many Lexicon owners. The processing in the Lexicon's, which is a big part of the sound of music in surround, is better then anything Theta has ever done... which is nothing other then implement off the shelf decoding of others. And do it very late.

Shawn

Jeff, you are a corker, aren't you? I had a Citation 7.0, which I replaced with the Theta CB first version back in 1997. To day the CB3 and Six Shooter is no better than that is simply ludicrous and very bland at best. Give me a break!!@@@

How does a $17K (CBIII and 6-Shooter) pass through device help you with lossless sound quality from HD DVD and Blu Ray lossless surround formats? When, as Sanjay put it, it can (at best) only be infinitely transparent to the source? No post processing in the Theta (e.g. THX processing, time alignment, Theta crossover selections, bass management, etc). How does this device help you relative to the new Lexicon HD that fully accepts lossless sound, uses its own D/A converters and does all post processing in the digital domain (and room correction as well). Bulldogger still thinks his Theta would still best the Lexicon HD on lossless movie soundtracks..an argument so baseless that it wreaks of an unflapping bias of his dated CBIII. With lossless soundtracks, the $15K Theta simply morphs into a $250 Toshiba all-in-one DVD receiver!!

Bulldogger, looking bad as usual, seems to think lossy sound is still the best and somehow his beloved Theta is still an important piece for today's lossless sound. All the Theta can do is ideally bring the sound of Toshiba's DACs and analog stage into your expensive Aerials bypassing 100% anything and everything your $15K Theta does so well in the process... and Bulldogger defends that sound!!!:D

At least Halcro has had HDMI for almost 2 years. All Theta can muster with their brand new Valis in 2007 is DVI??!! So, again, nothing for lossless sound as audio cannot be carried on DVI. What is that all about? Is it the companies goal to purposely keep their clients far out of the cutting edge so they can perfect yesterday's technology? Well, HDMI on the Theta is at least a year out given their track record if it ever even comes to the CBIII (it won't).

There is a lot of HD content out there between both new HD formats (over 600 BD and HD VD titles collectively and more coming each week) and Theta has continued to force their owners to turn their sophisiticated $15K CBIII surround processor into an empty box when playing new lossless formats (bypassing ALL of Theta's circuitry) by buying yet another $2K box (6S) which renders the CBIII crippled and useless!! HA! Now that's progress!!!!!!!:D

If Sanjay's speakers are so cheap that Bulldogger can't take him seriously, what does that do to Bulldogger's credibility when he speaks to Mr Wilson himself, O.B.???;)

MY STICK IS BETTER THAN YOUR CARROT!!!@@@ Story in this thread sounds familiar, doesn't it, folks??????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??????????????????????????????????

Funny how what one perceives as value another perceives as shmvalue!

You can't. At least, historically you have been unable to do so on facts. Which is why you and Steve always (ALWAYS) end up resorting to an equipment pissing contest, that too based only on price (not quality, not functionality, not technology, etc). You literally have no place else to go. None. Absolutely zero objective information to debate with.

The last time you couldn't refute what I posted, you ran around the internet trying to find the lowest used prices for any model Kef speakers and then posted them in the thread, asthough that would somehow magically turn your unsupportable claims into facts. In what universe did you actually think that would happen?

It wouldn't matter if my entire audio system consisted of a Bose clock radio. It would not (could not) change the fact that your highest resolution audio sources have to completely bypass your CB3, rendering it the worlds most expensive remote control. And unless your Six Shooter is embellishing the audio that goes through it, the sound quality of your sources is still at the mercy of the DACs and analogue circuitry of a disc player.

So go ahead and post anything you want about my system or me (your typical next step is ad hominem attacks). The more you do, the more obvious you make it that you cannot debate the actual issue. Nice try. Better luck next time.

Sanjay
Oh sure, I can debate you. The problem is that you are dishonest. It's like trying to buy fruit from a vendor and the fruit is rotten on one spot. You point this out but the vendor still will not concede that the fruit is rotten. To bad this is not a debate forum and in fact an AV forum. I have seen you boast that Allen can not defend what he says either. However, he has some very nice gear, a Gen VIII dac for goodness sake, in a treated room. He is a professional. While you have extremely terrible speakers and a poor amp in your untreated living room. When I asked you to take measurements of the room, you were outraged. That's how far away you are from being credible. Yet you think that if you can debate everyone that makes you credible. I say the doing is in the doing and not in the talking with nothing at home to back up what you spout. Enuff.

How does a $17K (CBIII and 6-Shooter) pass through device help you with lossless sound quality from HD DVD and Blu Ray lossless surround formats? When, as Sanjay put it, it can (at best) only be infinitely transparent to the source? No post processing in the Theta (e.g. THX processing, time alignment, Theta crossover selections, bass management, etc). How does this device help you relative to the new Lexicon HD that fully accepts lossless sound, uses its own D/A converters and does all post processing in the digital domain (and room correction as well). Bulldogger still thinks his Theta would still best the Lexicon HD on lossless movie soundtracks..an argument so baseless that it wreaks of an unflapping bias of his dated CBIII. With lossless soundtracks, the $15K Theta simply morphs into a $250 Toshiba all-in-one DVD receiver!!

Bulldogger, looking bad as usual, seems to think lossy sound is still the best and somehow his beloved Theta is still an important piece for today's lossless sound. All the Theta can do is ideally bring the sound of Toshiba's DACs and analog stage into your expensive Aerials bypassing 100% anything and everything your $15K Theta does so well in the process... and Bulldogger defends that sound!!!:D

At least Halcro has had HDMI for almost 2 years. All Theta can muster with their brand new Valis in 2007 is DVI??!! So, again, nothing for lossless sound as audio cannot be carried on DVI. What is that all about? Is it the companies goal to purposely keep their clients far out of the cutting edge so they can perfect yesterday's technology? Well, HDMI on the Theta is at least a year out given their track record if it ever even comes to the CBIII (it won't).

There is a lot of HD content out there between both new HD formats (over 600 BD and HD VD titles collectively and more coming each week) and Theta has continued to force their owners to turn their sophisiticated $15K CBIII surround processor into an empty box when playing new lossless formats (bypassing ALL of Theta's circuitry) by buying yet another $2K box (6S) which renders the CBIII crippled and useless!! HA! Now that's progress!!!!!!!:D

If Sanjay's speakers are so cheap that Bulldogger can't take him seriously, what does that do to Bulldogger's credibility when he speaks to Mr Wilson himself, O.B.???;)
If you or Sanjay had even decent speakers this would not be an issue. I mean he could at least buy some PSB image series, with all the advice he gives? No one else has the gall to be so vocal yet have such such poor equipment. You don't see me poking fun at Nick do you? The reason is obvious. How much did you spend since that seems to be where you want to attack? 12k for a processor that you got 3.5k for, so that's 8.5k then another 10k for a Halcro, so that's 18k. 18k to get where you are and the rest of your system is a fraction of that. Silly at best to budget your money this way with real live DJ equipment in your theater. Even after spending 18k, you still are waiting for LPCM 7.1 because no one told you that it could only do 2.1? Try reading the owner's manual yourself :D before you buy something! You appear to be at the mercy of others. For example, wine selections that you post I am sure are truly the recommendations of the local clerk at the wine store you frequent. I would not even dare boast about my system if the only thing deserving discussion on this section of the forum are the processors that you have owned. That's all you can do is fight about processors. Reminder, I own the processor which is why I am on this thread. You and Sanjay are here to attack a brand that you do not like.

I have a comment for anyone using the Six Shooter and Toshiba HD-DVD player. Use the shelf EQ to roll off the treble in the CBIII for DD, if you like the sound of the Toshiba. The Toshiba is rolled off on the top end which is why it has a relaxed sound. Many DVD sound tracks are overly bright. Part of what you may like about the Toshiba sound is the lack of brightness. From what I have read, there are only a couple of hundred titles so far on both Blu-ray and HD-DVD. The vast volume of what is available is still plain old DD so you may as well optimize that. Using the shelf eq will produce a sound very similiar to the Toshiba with DD and still allow you to use DDPLL2 if you are running 7.1 like I am.

Another put down and more ad hominems.....bu nothing toward the topic at hand.

Allen and Gen III DACs?

Fruit vendors?

My wine recommendations and knowledge?

First, my theater sonically would destroy yours in every possible aspect and measurement as well as subjective movie sound...Second, you complain of Sanjay's 'cheap' speakers'.... My wine collection is more valuable than your entire McIntosh, CBIII system...So does that make your system a piece of crap?

Where did all that come from in this conversation??? Nice try to dodge the points made about your moribund CBIII. Spin , spin, spin!!! Your negative comments to Sanjay's system are further damaging any credibility you had around here and have hopelessly destroyed any point you were trying to make. You are simply looking like a zealot. Sanjay may not have the system you have but it appears that you are so emotionally and financially that you are willing to go down in flames trying to defend it. Even though it is yesterdays news and far from cutting edge.

But no substance about the point at hand: a new $2K piece designed to fully disable and bypass the hallowed $15K CBIII and make it sound like a $299 Toshiba player for HD DVD....Now that's forward thinking!!!.... So basically Theta helps you into the new world of lossless sound by having you buy a $2K piece designed to fully bypass their flagship processor. Wow, what a fantastic upgrade path! Perhaps their next upgrade will be a DVI card like their brand new Valis. How progressive!! :D

Two hate filled posy=ts in a row and not one word about your pass through, $15K remote...Well, if seems you finally believe that Theta left you with a boat anchor for today's Blu Ray and HDDVD lossless tracks. Don't pout off at thoughs who are being objective about a manufacturer...direct your hate at Theta..They forced you to turn in to Mr. Hyde.


Take your own advice (RE:Theta): Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.

Another put down and more ad hominems.....bu nothing toward the topic at hand.

Allen and Gen III DACs?

Fruit vendors?

My wine recommendations and knowledge?

First, my theater sonically would destroy yours in every possible aspect and measurement...Second, you complain of Sanjay's 'cheap' speakers'.... My wine collection is more valuable than your entire McIntosh, CBIII system...So does that make your system a piece of crap?

Where did all that come from in this conversation??? Nice try to dodge the points made about your moribund CBIII. Spin , spin, spin!!! Your negative comments to Sanjay's system are further damaging any credibility you had araound here and have hopelessly destroyed any point you were trying to made. You are simply looking like a zealot. Sanjay may not have the system you have but it appears that you so emotionally and financially that you are willing to go down in flames trying to defend it. Even though it is yesterdays news and far from cutting edge.

But no substance about the point at hand: a new $2K piece designed to fully disable and bypass the hallowed $15K CBIII and make it sound like a $299 Toshiba player for HD DVD....Now that's forward thinking!!!.... So basically Theta helps you into the new world of lossless sound by having you buy a $2K piece designed to fully bypass their flagship processor. Wow, what a fantastic upgrade path! Perhaps their next upgrade will be a DVI card like their brand new Valis. How progressive!! :D

Two hate filled posy=ts in a row and not one word about your pass through, $15K remote...Well, if seems you finally believe that Theta left you with a boat anchor for today's Blu Ray and HDDVD lossless tracks. Don't pout off at thoughs who are being objective about a manufacturer...direct your hate at Theta..They forced you to turn in to Mr. Hyde.


Take your own advice (RE:Theta): Never become so involved with something that it blinds you.
My motives are clear. I own the piece. Who's here product bashing? Hate filled, that's you. Hell has no fury like the Bland scorned. As you well know, the SS was designed to allow an analog bypass which the Theta lacked for SACD and DVD-A. If you are running 5.1 for any the of the hi-rez Dolby formats, that's what you are using as well. Yours is better than mine? Ok. Hypocritical statement isn't it.

Guys I feel like I'm reading a J.R.R. Tolkien novel with all the trolls in this thread. ;)

The point of this thread was would you buy a CB3 while it doesn't have HDMI yet. The Bland, all we needed was as yes/no. Nothing more. Especially if you've come to justify your Halco purchase and Lexicon you dumped for it. Start your own thread on Does Halcro's Failure to have HDMI 1.3 Impact whether you want to buy. I'm sure you'll be the foremost authority as you have a peaceful conversation of one; yourself.

Jim,

Fair enough. Let's bring it full circle..


This thing (CBIII and 6S) can man-handle any pre/pro on the market........

Wow, a $15K remote can do that???

I like knowing that my ability to get improved sound is not limited by whats in a pre/pro.Hey if HDMI is the deciding factor for you and not sound QUALITY, then that's fine with me. Just don't taunt Theta owners with 500.00 bets about how long ti will take Theta to addf what my actually be an poor connection for audio

OK, so now you want to bypass the Pre/Pro (and buy a 6S) as HDMI is a poor connection. OK, so you don't think HDMI could be a good connection (and bypassing the CBIII is a good solution)...I see. Fair enough. Jim from Lumagen says so as well (your quote).

When HDMI is available (to Theta) I am certain that will will be competitive with everything on the market and superior to most of the market.

Oh, so Theta's implementation will make HDMI the connection of choice!? (to hell with Jim from Lumagen).

The CBIII with Superior II dacs is much better than anything Lexicon has ever made.

Well, herein lies the crux of the argument. The HDMI, lossless sound enabled Lexicon MC-12B HD is no better than the good ole CBII? Hmmm... We're on a HT forum and movie sound is the topic. Now how is that the CBII sounds better for HD DVD and Blu Ray? Especially when it is bypassed completely to get movie sound!


Comment on the 'remote control' comments and tell all of us here that it truly is nothing more than that for lossless soundtracks on Blu Ray and HD DVD... Do you agree with this analysis for lossless tracks and if not, why not? Explain your position on this instead of avoiding it. Now look at the CBIII objectively rather than emotionally before you answer...

Let's bring this full circle, this is not [totally] about trashing the CBIII. If you recall it was YOU that made the statement that the Lexicon 12B HD (or any Lexicon), though it has HDMI and can fully process lossless soundtracks, would still sound inferior to your beloved CBIII. You started this conversation with that statement and have spun things out of control in resisting an answer to how that could possibly be!

Can you explain how you came to that conclusion? Why or why not.

I already told you that no, I do not view it that way. Why? Because the Six Shooter as you already know was designed and released well before HD-DVD was on the market because the Theta lacked a multi-channel analog bypass. Are you arguing that it should not have an analog bypass :rolleyes: ? Are you now using such a bypass at this time as you wait for the Halcro upgrade :p ? Would you not allow me the same ability to do the same while I wait for my company to upgrade :eek: ? The Six Shooter is external but still serves the same purpose as any other analog bypass. Yes, I am happy with the money that I have spent and see it as a good value. It only cost me 4k to have an excellent 12 channel analog pre-amp set-up. YEP, I have remote control which is why I did not buy the EMM Labs Switchman ;) . As a non-audiophile, you may think it folly that others actually buy 2 channel pre-amp for music instead of using the pre-amp section of a pre-pro. I do not. To actually not have to spend 5k for just a two channel pre-amp and only have to spend 2k for me is a bargain. It's a personal choice. You may not approve but you do not have to approve. I do not value your opinion at any rate The Six Shooter represents a bargain from where I stand. The cost was 2k not 17k. I have only watched about 20 HD-DVD so I still need a good surround processor. I am comfortable waiting for the HDMI upgrade. Read my lips on this one, ALL SURROUND PROCESSORS CAN BE BETTERED WTIH MUSIC BY ANALOG PRE-AMPS AND SEPARATE SOURCES. So, even if I had the Halcro or any HDMI 1.1 processor, I would not in a million years run SACD into a surround processor. Sound insane to you? Only because you are not an audiophile. Before I owned Theta, I owned California Audio Labs. That company is now out of business. Waiting for upgrades is frustrating but pales in comparison to owning 17K worth of electronics with little support. It took me 6 months to have my Cal amp evaluated only to find out that nothing was wrong with the amp :mad:. I want Theta to survive and if that means making slow cautious decisions, that is OK with me. I can call Theta and voice my concerns. I do not want to have to worry if some Chinese interest will be calling the shoots as Lexicon owners may have since Harmon is on the chopping block. I support small hifi companies because they make and represent my interest. Proceed another brand that I was found of is also no more. Some one has to represent the audiophile segment of this hobby.

My motives are clear. I own the piece. Who's here product bashing? Hate filled, that's you. Hell has no fury like the Bland scorned. As you well know, the SS was designed to allow an analog bypass which the Theta lacked for SACD and DVD-A. If you are running 5.1 for any the of the hi-rez Dolby formats, that's what you are using as well. Yours is better than mine? Ok. Hypocritical statement isn't it.

Jeff has admitted that he doesn't care about music, anyway. so the SS is meaningless for him. Except to use his pistols to gripe about.

Guys I feel like I'm reading a J.R.R. Tolkien novel with all the trolls in this thread. ;)

The point of this thread was would you buy a CB3 while it doesn't have HDMI yet. The Bland, all we needed was as yes/no. Nothing more. Especially if you've come to justify your Halco purchase and Lexicon you dumped for it. Start your own thread on Does Halcro's Failure to have HDMI 1.3 Impact whether you want to buy. I'm sure you'll be the foremost authority as you have a peaceful conversation of one; yourself.
He will never do that. Ask yourself why he attacks on every single Theta thread? He has motives that are not about audio. He and Theta have a history.

Well, if seems you finally believe that Theta left you with a boat anchor for today's Blu Ray and HDDVD lossless tracks. Don't pout off at thoughs who are being objective about a manufacturer...direct your hate at Theta..They forced you to turn in to Mr. Hyde.

While it would be nice to have HDMI right now. Theta has already commented on their work to bring HDMI 1.3 to the owners. Lexicon's MC-12 will not have it for quite some time as well. It's on the back burner for now.

You seem to think the world revolves around Blow Ray and HD DVD (I have both so I can call it what I want). SACD is dead. I for one enjoy music just as much as movies. For someone to make a statement that a processor is a $15-17K remote is moronic. You don't hear us talking about your wine. It's like buying an old $1.00 bottle of grape juice. ;) I know it's not. But come-on. What is the real motivation for your put downs? Are you angry that the Halcro is not the Utopia device you were led to believe it was? Redirecting your dissapointment towards us? Tired of beta testing a product you paid good money for? It's ok, you can use my shoulder and let it all out.

Peace man.

And if I had to do it all over again, I'd still buy the Casablanca III.

I like music....but that is besides the point. But as you pointed out this thread is about Theta and HDMI. Your thread title. The Lexicon has HDMI, the Theta doesn't. Bulldogger clearly said the CBII (sans HDMI) was better than any Lexicon ever made. Would simply like to know his reasoning given how the Lexicon handles HD DVD and Blu Ray lossless tracks versus the way the CBIII does (sans HDMI).. How could the CBIII be better?

Simple question. Convoluted answers...

[QUOTE=thebland]I like music....but that is besides the point.QUOTE]
No, that is exactly the point. You do not use your theater for music.

Last I checked, this was a Home Theater forum and this thread is about HDMI.

Let me try again:

I like music....but that is besides the point. But as you pointed out this thread is about Theta and HDMI. Your thread title. The Lexicon has HDMI, the Theta doesn't. Bulldogger clearly said the CBII (sans HDMI) was better than any Lexicon ever made. Would simply like to know his reasoning given how the Lexicon handles HD DVD and Blu Ray lossless tracks versus the way the CBIII does (sans HDMI).. How could the CBIII be better?

Simple question. Convoluted answers...

I . Bulldogger clearly said the CBII (sans HDMI) was better than any Lexicon ever made. Would simply like to know his reasoning biven how the Lexicon handles HD DVD and Blu Ray lossless tracks versus the way the CBIII does (sans HDMI).. How could the CBIII be better?

Simple question. Convoluted answers...
Why did you buy the Halcro when it did not have HDMI 7.1 LPCM support when you bought it? You said that it sounded better than the Lex which is why you did not switch back? How could you make that statement when at the time the Lex had 5.1 LPCM support and the Halcro does not? Hypocritical? Why did you switch to the Halcro? Aren't you now saying that it is better than any Lexicon that you have ever owned even before the 7.1 upgrade? How can it be when right now at this present moment it can not do 7.1 LPCM but then neither can the Lex? You were willng to wait? But if I am willing to wait, that is somehow folly? Again hypocritical. You do not get to decide how long a fair wait for a Theta owner is. I do because I am the one doing the waiting.

Your thread title. The Lexicon has HDMI, the Theta doesn't. Bulldogger clearly said the CBII (sans HDMI) was better than any Lexicon ever made. Would simply like to know his reasoning given how the Lexicon handles HD DVD and Blu Ray lossless tracks versus the way the CBIII does (sans HDMI).. How could the CBIII be better?

Simple question. Convoluted answers...

So the real question is, when Theta comes out with their HDMI 1.3x solution, will you concede that it is better than your Halcro and Lex? You know coming first to the dance doesn't guarantee you to be the prom queen.

Again, convoluted answers.

(Theta will not bring HDMI to the CBIII - they just don't know it yet).

Again, convoluted answers.

(Theta will not bring HDMI to the CBIII - they just don't know it yet).
Convuluted anwers? No you evaded every response. You asked for me to respond and I did. Here's your turn to show me how to not give what you call convoluted answers. Exactly why can Theta not upgrade the CBIII to HDMI? Answer my questions about the Halcro being superior to the Lex as well.

Again, convoluted answers.

(Theta will not bring HDMI to the CBIII - they just don't know it yet).

Are you Mr. Spock's son? Have you mind melded Neil Sinclair of Theta Digital? WOW??

Jeff, I thought Halcro promised the other month that you were to have the LPCM multi-channel upgrade in a month? What's the status on that???

(Theta will not bring HDMI to the CBIII - they just don't know it yet).

And you *know* this how? Is it just vitriolic hopes that your Halcro is not outclassed by another product like the Casablanca when it has it's HDMI solution?

Wine of the Week: Welch's White. Concord 2007. Fantastic vintage. Yellow but fruity..$2.53 Winn Dixie

:D
Wine of the Week: Welch's White. Concord 2007. Fantastic vintage. Yellow but fruity..$2.53 Winn Dixie
That one is stellar :D

Oh sure, I can debate you.You're incapable. Certainly not on issue. It simply a matter of time before you run out of facts and start with the name calling. Perfect example: The problem is that you are dishonest.Thank you for proving my point. As I predicted in my previous post, your next step when the equipment pissing match doesn't work is to resort to personal attacks. That won't work either, because everyone can see the one thing you're absolutely avoiding discussing: the CB3.

And for the record, you have never been able to provide even one example of anything "dishonest" I've posted. Ever. Nice try, but your distraction isn't working. Keep avoiding the actual issue. I'll keep bringing it back to the original topic: "Theta Digital's Failure to Have HDMI". I have seen you boast that Allen can not defend what he says either. However, he has some very nice gear, a Gen VIII dac for goodness sake, in a treated room.What reality do you live in where you believe that owning certain equipment can suddenly alter facts? The fact is that your CB3 becomes nothing more than a remote control for an outboard switchbox when listening to your highest resolution sources, leaving you at the mercy of whatever DAC and analogue stage is in the disc player. You seriously believe that fact is up for debate just because Allen has a Gen VII DAC? For goodness sake, where does that type of belief system come from? That survey at SMR was done as a joke, but you're turning it into reality by providing a real-world example.

Sanjay

Allen has a Gen VII DAC?

Dude, get with the program. Only losers who listen to Lexicons through $150 speakers controlled by $100 remote controls listen to Gen VII DACs. Allen uses a Gen VIII!!1@2@@

--Andre

Last I checked, this was a Home Theater forum

Let me try again:

I like music....but that is besides the point.
Bullsh!t. Check again. It may have started that way, but AVS is far more than a HT forum. For example, how many threads exist to discuss tube preamps and main amps? Heck, there are whole sections of this forum to discuss CD players and music servers.

It is absolutely undeniable that you have, and for some time now have had, a personal agenda against Theta. You may not realize it or perhaps you do but just wont own up to it. You're sort of like the alcoholic who continues to deny having a problem, even after crashing a car into a group of pedestrians in a crosswalk and then blowing a .2 BAC. Sad. IMO you have an incredible amount of valuable inforrmation to share with and add to the collective here. Your constant harangues about Theta do not serve you well.
The fact is that your CB3 becomes nothing more than a remote control for an outboard switchbox when listening to your highest resolution sources, leaving you at the mercy of whatever DAC and analogue stage is in the disc player.
This is absolutely undeniable.

My motivations do not change the facts. Let's stick to those and the thread topic, 'Theta's failure to implement.HDMI'.

Sanjay's contention is irrefutable (unless, of course, you are smitten by a CBIII).

Theta will not bring HDMI to the CBIII - they just don't know it yet.
My motivations do not change the facts
Hmmmmmmmmm.

Wanna bet?

You know better than anyone that this has been promised every other month since October. I do agree it is close, but I would be pleasantly shocked if it is here in two weeks.

While we are making fun guesses, would you like to take a stab at the upgrade cost? :p

Actually Halcro has HDMI 7.1 support...and PCM support in the next 2 weeks.

I know the promises drill all too well. It's been a long 7 months since I bought in. Lexicon has been LPCM ready for almost 6 mos... I can't wait to test the dynamics of the new lossless tracks all post-processed in the digital domain.

$1000 is my guess. But whatever it turns out to be, it is a must have.

. You seriously believe that fact is up for debate just because Allen has a Gen VII DAC? For goodness sake, where does that type of belief system come from? That survey at SMR was done as a joke, but you're turning it into reality by providing a real-world example.

Sanjay
Yes I believe that he has a set-up that should not be discussed in the same forum as yours. You can not fathom, a guy with some thing called an Ambosonic amp or something like that?, what that truly means. Do you even remotely have anything at home besides your processor that could be considered high-end? Clearly NO! Do you currently even own a single device with HDMI? You claimed not to and thus used that claim to give as a reason as to why you do not own the MC12HD. See the proof here is obvious. You in fact are not even listening to LPCM via a surround processor. Yet here you are, a guy who claims to not even use HDMI lecturing others about why they do not have it?. It's pathetic. How does one truly set in an untreated living room with 15 year old low-fi speakers and be an expert with nearly 8000 post :D. The internet is a strange place. If we all lived in the same location and there was a home theater meet held at your place, you would likely be laughed at. I am certainly amused by you now. ALL YOU HAVE IS DEBATE. You certainly are not living what you spout. That much is clear. Then it never ends with you. Endless debate while you sit at home listening to that garbage. BUY some decent speakers. WOW what does it take? Save your money, you can do it. It's not about being wealthy. Just commit and be patient. Then maybe you can stay off Theta threads as you have never even owned any of the products. Is it it bitterness, envy? Why do you attack Theta products on nearly every thread.

I know the promises drill all too well. It's been a long 7 months since I bought in. Lexicon has been LPCM ready for almost 6 mos... I can't wait to test the dynamics of the new lossless tracks all post-processed in the digital domain.

$1000 is my guess. But whatever it turns out to be, it is a must have.
If you had been able to evaluate a product yourself and not have to depend on others this would have never happened. You must feel like a fool buying a product and thinking it could do multi-channel LPCM and then realizing that it could not. Look you can make decisions yourself. Start by reading the owner's manual of any products BEFORE you buy it :D.

I have tested Hi Res (DVD-A) in 2CH. I have one source setup for 2CH HDMI and a second with Analog Outs from my DVD player. This allows for a quick A/B comparison.

The HDMI allows for the Halcro to do the D/A conversion and it sounds great. But, I disagree that the price doesn't matter. I own the high end gear for fun/enjoyment. If I feel I am being bent over a railing, the fun goes away (oddly enough). Out of principle, I will sell the unit and buy a Prepro from a different company.

Hopefully, Halcro prices the upgrade fairly. If not, there are other options out there.

I can't wait to test the dynamics of the new lossless tracks all post-processed in the digital domain.

I believe that he has a set-up that should not be discussed in the same forum as yours.It's obvious don't really believe that since you brought his system into this discussion, not me. You in fact are not even listening to LPCM via a surround processor.I listen to LPCM every single day: 90% of what passes through my surround processor is 2-channel music on CD. And, in fact, I listen to music on a daily basis. Of course if you actually understood what "LPCM" was, you wouldn't have made a fool of yourself with the above claim. ALL YOU HAVE IS DEBATE.No, I have facts. Nothing more complicated than that. Facts that you know you cannot refute. Which is why you have no choice but to lash out at me personally. But that's OK, because it demonstrates to everyone the two things you are afraid of discussing: the topic of this thread and your pre-pro.

Are you willing to keep the discussion on-topic?

Sanjay

Let me try again:
Bulldogger clearly said the CBII (sans HDMI) was better than any Lexicon ever made. Would simply like to know his reasoning given how the Lexicon handles HD DVD and Blu Ray lossless tracks versus the way the CBIII does (sans HDMI).. How could the CBIII be better?

Don't you agree the CBIII is simply an expensive remote for the 6S for these lossless tracks? If 'no'...then (specifically), why not?

Simple question and exactly on topic. No spin necessary.

Well, what you say Bulldogger?

Lexicon has been LPCM ready for almost 6 mos...

I think the MC-12HD shipped almost exactly a year ago now.

Shawn

My motivations do not change the facts. Let's stick to those and the thread topic, 'Theta's failure to implement.HDMI'.

Sanjay's contention is irrefutable (unless, of course, you are smitten by a CBIII).



Here's stuff from another thread at this 20K and up forum on this from the past several days:




- - - - - Don't let Mr. Bland's hatred of Theta (dating back on this forum the other year when he offered to trade professional services for a free CB surround processor but no one took him up - he has hated Theta ever since - who knows what if anything he paid for his Halcro - me, I paid retail for my CB back in 1997 and I've upgraded it ever since though I admit I have dealer friends and have got close to dealer cost on upgrades - I never demanded anything for barter).



Steve, if I had a free Theta, I'd have sold it by now......it is at the endo the line....worthless. I did try and get a Valis out of them, but then I found out it was DVI...:(.

Like Lexicon and Halcro, 1.3 is an impossiblility to implement in an old design. Unlike HDMI 1.1, it is an '8 layered board'. Too big and complicated to implement in today's hardware. If somehow Theta did shoe horn it in, it would be rudimentary relative to it's full potential....and boy will it cost.

I don't 'hate' Theta, I only look at their handling of upgrades and Slowsky like speed for upgrades as sophomoric.


So you also tried to get a Valis out of Theta, not just a "free" CB in trade. Interesting. The Valis ain't even out yet. So your attempt must be been very recent, while you are so busy Theta bashing. What did you do - promise to stop bashing Theta for a free Valis?

Theta has already discussed on the forum how, for purposes of HDMI audio, they have to overhaul the internals of the CB3, anyway. They'll do it. Why? Because future consumers want it, that's why, there's a demand coming and Theta knows it. And if the HDMI doesn't sound quite as good as us audio purists would like, well, we've still got our Six Shooter(s).

I think the MC-12HD shipped almost exactly a year ago now.


The first pre/pro with multi-channel LCPM over HDMI 1.1 was the Anthem D2, 18 months ago.

Also, the Anthem D2 was the very first product to use a Gennum VXP video processor/scaler on the market, even before the Crystalio II and the Optoma scalers that came out a couple of months after the Anthem.

It's obvious don't really believe that since you brought his system into this discussion, not me. I listen to LPCM every single day: 90% of what passes through my surround processor is 2-channel music on CD. And, in fact, I listen to music on a daily basis. Of course if you actually understood what "LPCM" was, you wouldn't have made a fool of yourself with the above claim. No, I have facts. Nothing more complicated than that. Facts that you know you cannot refute. Which is why you have no choice but to lash out at me personally. But that's OK, because it demonstrates to everyone the two things you are afraid of discussing: the topic of this thread and your pre-pro.

Are you willing to keep the discussion on-topic?

Sanjay
You evaded my question. Do you use HDMI yourself? We can not have a discussion because of your tactics and I find it difficult to take advice from someone about the lack of HDMI on a processor I own if that person has not invested in HDMI himself. To lie is not just to make false statements. One can lie with true statements. Others may not consider your tactics deceptive but I sincerely do. Am I employing the same tactics? Sure. If that is the way you play, it is the way I play. "When a person lies he or she is intentionally untruthful, but he or she is not necessarily making an untrue statement." Wikipedia. Here' what you said before, "I have a Lexicon MC-12EQ but do not have the HDMI equipped version. Nor do I plan on getting the MC-12 HD since I don't have any HMDI based equipment. "
I am not being snide but how can I take you seriously when you do not have HDMI? No, I have zero interest in debating why I should be concerned about Theta lack of HDMI from someone who has not found the need to use the link himself.

Let me try again:
Bulldogger clearly said the CBII (sans HDMI) was better than any Lexicon ever made. Would simply like to know his reasoning given how the Lexicon handles HD DVD and Blu Ray lossless tracks versus the way the CBIII does (sans HDMI).. How could the CBIII be better?

Don't you agree the CBIII is simply an expensive remote for the 6S for these lossless tracks? If 'no'...then (specifically), why not?

Simple question and exactly on topic. No spin necessary.

Well, what you say Bulldogger?
I answered your question already. It was a sincere answer, from the heart. My ordeal with CAL audio strongly influences my position. I do not believe you can hope to understand my position as we fundamentally disagree. Further, I do not think you are sincere. As well you never answered my questions about Halcro or why Theta CBIII will never have HMDI.

Don't you agree the CBIII is simply an expensive remote for the 6S for these lossless tracks on HD DVD and Blu Ray? If 'no'...then (specifically), why not?


A simple ''Yes or 'No' would be fine. Forget the explanation. I'll take a dodge, a post related to Cal Audio or no response as a 'Yes'.

It is a simple qwuestion.

A simple ''Yes or 'No' would be fine. Forget the explanation. I'll take a dodge, a post related to Cal Audio or no response as a 'Yes'.

It is a simple qwuestion.

To your simple "qwuestion", the answer is a simple "YES"!!!@@


I use the CB3's Xtreme DACS a lot for the following sources:

1. DirecTV HD TIVO/Plus HD DVRs.

2. Theta Compli Redbook CD

3. Theta Compli DVD

4. Toshiba HD DVD when the disc is only Dolby Digital as I am finding it sounds better this way than using multi-channel analog via Six Shooter.


On the other hand, the Six Shooter has proved equally useful for a good amount of watching/listening I do:

1. HD DVDs in Dolby Digital Plus or Dolby True HD

2. Theta Compli SACD and DVD-Audio generally mutli-channel.


I would gladly buy the CB3 again for this. Although if I were buying new at this time, I would probably extremely consider forgoing the more expensive Extreme DACs for the almost but not quite as good Superior 2 DACs.

The CB3 and Six Shooter combo is no more an expensive remote for Blue Ray and HD DVD than Jeff your Halcro or your prior Lex surround processors are. They also have analog multi-channel inputs, just they are in the main processor chassis and don't sound near as good as the CB3's Six Shooter.

Steve,

Great response!

Taht is all that was needed to be said. Bulldogger just couldn't admit what is the obvious truth RE: CBIII and 6S when playing HD DVD, etc.. In fact, other than HDMi, my Halcro is no better. Not a huge deal. But in the context of him saying the CBII is better than anything Lexicon has ever made (inc. the 12B HD - HDMI model) AND putting down Sanjay and myself, he put himself on the spot and we required he defend what he said. He couldn't.

I appreciate your candor. When we all shed the emotional love for our own gear, it allows all to really concentrate on the hobby and benefit from each other's experiences.. All is good.

Steve,

"The CB3 and Six Shooter combo is no more an expensive remote for Blue Ray and HD DVD than Jeff your Halcro or your prior Lex surround processors are. They also have analog multi-channel inputs, just they are in the main processor chassis and don't sound near as good as the CB3's Six Shooter."

In the case of the Lexicon MC-12 it is not the same thing. The multichannel analog input on the MC-12 can be a straight analog pass through or it can be redigitized to allow additional processing such expanding from 5 channels out to 7 (v5 added the so called 'Discrete Logic 7' which would steer material from L/R into center and into the surrounds on a multichannel input), bass management, time alignment and room EQ to be performed on the multichannel signal.

Shawn

Steve,

Great response!

Taht is all that was needed to be said. Bulldogger just couldn't admit what is the obvious truth RE: CBIII and 6S when playing HD DVD, etc.. In fact, other than HDMi, my Halcro is no better. Not a huge deal. But in the context of him saying the CBII is better than anything Lexicon has ever made (inc. the 12B HD - HDMI model) AND putting down Sanjay and myself, he put himself on the spot and we required he defend what he said. He couldn't.

I appreciate your candor. When we all shed the emotional love for our own gear, it allows all to really concentrate on the hobby and benefit from each other's experiences.. All is good.

Jeff, I have learned in high end audio and home theater that one can't blanketly assume anything. Technically CB3 with HDMI for multi-channel audio should sound better than the Six Shooter due to using the CB3's better DACs, but will it in practice? Will HDMI, at least initially, have jitter or other problems decreasing its sound quality over what it theoretically should be?

An example of this on the video side: Shouldn't my HD TIVO, via HDMI, into my Lumagen VisionPro scaler/processor, out RGB H/V Sync to my CRT projector, look better than having my HD TIVO do digital analog conversion and outputting analog component video? It should. But it looks better using analog component.
John Gannon confirmed this.

When I first got DVD. I still preferred laserdisc cause it clearly sounded better. Over time, DVD sonics improved considerably.

We don't know if your Halcro, when it gets multi-channel PCM over HDMI, will sound better or as good as my CB3 with Six Shooter using analog out from HD DVD player. We do know that the latter sounds so awfully great in my system that I am fully satisfied.

We can extrapolate that no surround processing company has put the audiophile care into its multi-channel analog input that Theta has so Theta's should sound the best for this vs others.

When your Halcro, Jeff, eventually gets its HDMI multi-channel upgrade (the one you were promised right then by your dealer, wasn't that a year ago?), I'd love to compare it vs the CB3's Six Shooter (or the CB3's HDMI, for who knows, it remains to be seen if Halcro will beat to the punch - Halcro should, by what they've been saying, but they've been saying it so long and so old that I'll believe it when you see it).

Steve,

"The CB3 and Six Shooter combo is no more an expensive remote for Blue Ray and HD DVD than Jeff your Halcro or your prior Lex surround processors are. They also have analog multi-channel inputs, just they are in the main processor chassis and don't sound near as good as the CB3's Six Shooter."

In the case of the Lexicon MC-12 it is not the same thing. The multichannel analog input on the MC-12 can be a straight analog pass through or it can be redigitized to allow additional processing such expanding from 5 channels out to 7 (v5 added the so called 'Discrete Logic 7' which would steer material from L/R into center and into the surrounds on a multichannel input), bass management, time alignment and room EQ to be performed on the multichannel signal.

Shawn

I appreciate the difference. To me, my system is setup 5.3, with the 3 subs
chained to the first sub, using 1 sub out from the CB3. I don't need the redigitizing, which in my experience adverse affects sound quality.

My experience from demos at dealers and shows is that the Lex sonically ain't on par with the CB3. That's my experience. That doesn't mean that in many systems for movies and tv that the Lex might not be close enough to warrant serious consideration - but not in my system.

In order for Lex to have the flexibility to be a analog bypass or redigitize, that means more connections and stuff which can adversely affect the audio signal.
For my purposes audio purity is what I want and the Six Shooter does that for
me.

Steve,

"We can extrapolate that no surround processing company has put the audiophile care into its multi-channel analog input that Theta has so Theta's should sound the best for this vs others."

Quite the extrapolation. Why would we extrapolate that? Because you, Bulldogger or Theta says so isn't good enough.

"To me, my system is setup 5.3, with the 3 subs chained to the first sub, using 1 sub out from the CB3."

Then that is not a 5.3 system. It is a 5.1 system with multiple mono subs reproducing the same channel. Plugging in 10 center channels doesn't mean one has a 15.1 system for example.

"In order for Lex to have the flexibility to be a analog bypass or redigitize, that means more connections and stuff which can adversely affect the audio signal. For my purposes audio purity is what I want and the Six Shooter does that for me."

In order for the Six Shooter to offer three inputs it "means more connections and stuff which can adversely affect the audio signal."

Not to mention passing anything from the CBIII through the six shooter means dramatically "more connections and stuff which can adversely affect the audio signal" of the CB3.

"My experience from demos at dealers and shows is that the Lex sonically ain't on par with the CB3."

Neither of which are a useful predicator of sound quality. Totally different rooms and totally different systems.

Shawn

Shawn, you and I are both happy with our gear, and that's what counts, isn't it.

I find it difficult to take advice from someone about the lack of HDMI on a processor I own if that person has not invested in HDMI himself.Who's giving you advice? I'm stating facts related to the topic of this thread. Those facts don't depend on what I or you (or Allen) own. One can lie with true statements.Translation: despite calling me dishonest, you can't find a single example to back up your claim. Not one. Here' what you said before, "I have a Lexicon MC-12EQ but do not have the HDMI equipped version. Nor do I plan on getting the MC-12 HD since I don't have any HMDI based equipment. "Still a true statement. What's dishonest about it? how can I take you seriously when you do not have HDMI?What difference does it make whether you take me seriously or not? It's not going to change the fact that your highest resolution sources completely bypass your pre-pro. The truly bizzare part is that you're projecting personal emotions into the hardware you own and letting a simple statement of fact feel like an attack. You should never become so involved with something that it blinds you.

Sanjay

You evaded my question. Do you use HDMI yourself? We can not have a discussion because of your tactics and I find it difficult to take advice from someone about the lack of HDMI on a processor I own if that person has not invested in HDMI himself. To lie is not just to make false statements. One can lie with true statements. Others may not consider your tactics deceptive but I sincerely do. Am I employing the same tactics? Sure. If that is the way you play, it is the way I play. "When a person lies he or she is intentionally untruthful, but he or she is not necessarily making an untrue statement." Wikipedia. Here' what you said before, "I have a Lexicon MC-12EQ but do not have the HDMI equipped version. Nor do I plan on getting the MC-12 HD since I don't have any HMDI based equipment. "
I am not being snide but how can I take you seriously when you do not have HDMI? No, I have zero interest in debating why I should be concerned about Theta lack of HDMI from someone who has not found the need to use the link himself.

So you're saying that only ownership, rather than knowledge, entitles someone to post about a factual matter? Are you sure you don't want to re-think that position?

Because whether or not Sanjay does or does not have HDMI links (or listens to music through dixie cups and a string for that matter) doesn't change the factual accuracy of his statement that the only way to listen to 5.1 analog sources through a CB3 is to turn it into a $15K remote-controlled switchbox. At least Steve has enough of a grip on reality to admit it.

Cheers,
Philip Brandes

The difference between Sanjay not using HDMI and Theta owners not using HDMI is that it was Sanjay's choice not to use HDMI. Theta is forcing all of its customers not to use HDMI. Some then choose to think up creative reasons why they wouldn't want HDMI anyway.

--Andre

The difference between Sanjay not using HDMI and Theta owners not using HDMI is that it was Sanjay's choice not to use HDMI. Theta is forcing all of its customers not to use HDMI. Some then choose to think up creative reasons why they wouldn't want HDMI anyway.

--Andre

I don't believe Theta is "forcing" anybody to do anything. All the top processors were out before HDMI was even a standard. Theta has voiced support to design a HDMI solution for us. While it is slower than what we want, it is coming. I for one don't want Theta to rush a design to satisfy non-owners which may sacrifice quality. I would hope Theta continues their tradition of building quality devices to satisfy the owners, and not the trolls adding their unwanted input or reasons why they bought their own processor and didn't buy a Theta product.

I don't believe Theta is "forcing" anybody to do anything. All the top processors were out before HDMI was even a standard.

Perhaps "forced" was too strong a word, but nevertheless, Theta owners have no choice on HDMI audio if they want to continue using a Theta processor. Sanjay is free to evaluate the benefits of HDMI, and not use it of his own volition. That gives his advice far more weight than someone who had no choice in the matter.

It's also interesting to me that Theta processors' expansion capabilities due to their card cage architecture that was so highly promoted isn't really helping them keep up with even the most basic processor upgrades. It seems the company's ability to put out upgrades is limited by other factors, which goes to show the relative ineffectiveness and perhaps even hindrance of an expandable architecture when the company can't execute in other important areas.

--Andre

It's also interesting to me that Theta processors' expansion capabilities due to their card cage architecture that was so highly promoted isn't really helping them keep up with even the most basic processor upgrades. It seems the company's ability to put out upgrades is limited by other factors, which goes to show the relative ineffectiveness and perhaps even hindrance of an expandable architecture when the company can't execute in other important areas.

--Andre

Did I miss something here? Didn't Evelyn state they are bringing HDMI to the Casablanca 3? That there wasn't a need to change the power supply, motherboard, or DACS (at least for Xtreme)? That all that was required was to change the processor board and maybe add a video board.

The bottom line is if they didn't have the "card cage" feature, it would only delay it even further and increase the cost to the customers. So I don't see how it pertains to the conversation.

Sanjay is free to evaluate the benefits of HDMI, and not use it of his own volition. That gives his advice far more weight than someone who had no choice in the matter.
Only partially true, and therefore also partially untrue. You must add, at a minimum, the following: if, and only if, Sanjay did evaluate the benefits of HDMI. Otherwise, the only way to make your statement true is if you limit that advice to factual info, i.e., what the processor can or cannot do.

If Sanjay does perform an evaluation, then of course he can offer advice based on his subjective impressions of what he experienced. Even then, however, his advice in this regard would be limited to the Lex processor's HDMI sound in his or whomever's system he performed the evaluation. Under these circumstances, his advice may or may not carry more weight. Too many variables.

Did I miss something here? Didn't Evelyn state they are bringing HDMI to the Casablanca 3? That there wasn't a need to change the power supply, motherboard, or DACS (at least for Xtreme)? That all that was required was to change the processor board and maybe add a video board.

The bottom line is if they didn't have the "card cage" feature, it would only delay it even further and increase the cost to the customers. So I don't see how it pertains to the conversation.

She said they "hope" to bring it out. She also said that they considered this "urgent," or something like that. Someone who cares more than I do at the moment can go look up the posts.

I first offered on, I believe, March 18, 2007, a proposal to make Theta's urgent hopes interesting. Here's how: We each exchange $500 to a neutral soul on AVS Forum. If there is a Theta made, Theta fully-incorporated HDMI input and output on a CBIII in any consumer's home by March 18, 2008, you get to keep the $1000 (maybe as a down payment on the upcoming 8-shooter).

If there is no HDMI anything (I'm not requiring that they make it HDMI 1.3, 1.2, 1.1 or anything, so long as it's HDMI-something), then I get to keep the money.

Now, guys, this is not "taunting." This is simply a proposition to make our Theta-watch interesting. So for those of us who want others to value their opinions, they can simply tender the $500, and let the watch begin!! And, lest we forget one important thing . . .

Theta has posted on this very thread!!! Perhaps they will publicly proclaim money-where-your-mouth-is support at this very critical moment of consumer confidence, and corporately take me up on my proposition. A post (no PMs or anything so non-public) from Theta or any of its believers indicating acceptance of these terms gets the matter going. And think of the odds!!! You need not upgrade. Theta need only put one as-defined HDMI upgrade in a CBIII in the entire world . Where else could you find such easy money? Hurry!!!

And if no one is willing to put up a measly $500, then what are we to think of them? Hell, even Sanjay's speakers cost more than that ;)

Nick :cool:

Wow! What a bunch of hot air! Man, I'm just glad I'm alive in your time, Carnac.

Wow! What a bunch of hot air! Man, I'm just glad I'm alive in your time, Carnac.

When do you want to submit your $500? And to who?

Nick :cool:

To whom, smartness. If I had an extra 500 laying around, I'd, hmmmmmmm, let's see, mebbe deposit the same in my kids' education IRAs, buy some of thebland's recommended wine o' the week, donate it to some homeless shelter, who knows. There is nothing in my response which could make one think I have an interest in engaging in any kind of bet with some hot air bag trolling in this thread.

Hey Nick, will you make a similar offer on when Halcro actually makes available multi-channel HDMI and at what price point???

Or maybe you could make it interesting by betting audiophile power cords instead of money. HA!

Drink a bit more of the Bland's wine and I'm sure even better betting offers will come to you.

Gotta go now and listen to my $15K remote control. I luv it.

That gives his advice far more weight than someone who had no choice in the matter.Thanx, though I tend to agree with Ron that there are too many variables. And in any case, I'm not posting any advice in this thread (a fact that seems to have gotten lost), but instead asking why some Theta owners are defending the lack of HDMI in their pre-pros. As I asked earlier in the thread: don't you want to pour raw PCM data into your pre-pro so that your highest resolution sources (in particular) can take full advantage of every inch of circuitry in your CB3? Is that really so unreasonable?

Sanjay

Thanx, though I tend to agree with Ron that there are too many variables. And in any case, I'm not posting any advice in this thread (a fact that seems to have gotten lost), but instead asking why some Theta owners are defending the lack of HDMI in their pre-pros. As I asked earlier in the thread: don't you want to pour raw PCM data into your pre-pro so that your highest resolution sources (in particular) can take full advantage of every inch of circuitry in your CB3? Is that really so unreasonable?

Sanjay
Assuming Theta can deliver the sound quality through the HDMI connection, it is a no-brainer and not unreasonable whatsoever. I whole-heartedly agree with you, Sanjay.

I'd go one step further, Sanjay. I think bass management, crossovers, etc., should be equally available for a 5.1 analog connection to the 6S. After all, there are a ton of what are considered reference SACD players, both single box and dual boxes (transports and external DACS), which do not make use of HDMI. For example, take a look at the highly revered EMM Labs DAC 6e - 6 channels of analog outs, balanced or single-ended, but no HDMI out.

Did I miss something here? Didn't Evelyn state they are bringing HDMI to the Casablanca 3? That there wasn't a need to change the power supply, motherboard, or DACS (at least for Xtreme)? That all that was required was to change the processor board and maybe add a video board.

The bottom line is if they didn't have the "card cage" feature, it would only delay it even further and increase the cost to the customers. So I don't see how it pertains to the conversation.

This is all speculation until Theta actually ships some product. The Lexicon's lack of card cage architecture certainly didn't stop them from coming out with an HDMI product a year ago. If you look back somewhere in this thread, I wrote an analysis of how a card cage architecture could hinder Theta's HDMI feature as well, and its conclusions were later confirmed (through Steve B. and others) as some of the reasons Theta hasn't shipped HDMI.

As for cost increase, we all pay for every feature somewhere. Whether it's more upfront for a card cage architecture, or more later for an extensive gutting of the video section (in the case of the Lexicon), we end up paying for the feature one way or another.

--Andre

A simple ''Yes or 'No' would be fine. Forget the explanation. I'll take a dodge, a post related to Cal Audio or no response as a 'Yes'.

It is a simple qwuestion.
No, I do not for the third time. Here's how Theta's better than Lexicon for Dolby True HD. The reports that I have gotten are that the Lexicon MC12HD actually sounds better using the analog bypass with the Toshiba HD-DVD player. This is not my first time making this statement. Why? I am not sure. The speculation that I was given was the HDMI is a fiasco for audio and degrades the sound.The HDMi on the Lex degrades the sound. That brings us to analog bypass. Theta has the best analog bypass in the business, the Six Shooter which easily beats the MC12. Now Shawnfogg will argue that the room correction of the Lex is something that he can not be without. I had not considered that, but my source suggested, Shawn may need all the help he can get keeping his speakers bass response linear. I mean is it a far stretch to believe that DIY speakers with JBL drivers need correction to not sound boomy? If you were to say JBL the first thing I would think would be boomy. What about resonances caused by the cabinet of a DIY design. Perhaps room correction is an absolute must for Shawn. You have the Halcro. I realize you are at the mercy of others for your audio advice and wine selections :D . Here's some free advice. The Halcro currently does 2 channel over the HDMI connection. Set your HD-DVD player to two channel and evaluate the difference between using the analog bypass and using the HDMI connection. BEFORE :D, you pay for the upgrade. Halcro's implementation of HDMI may be better than that of Lexicon or there may currently be no such thing as a great sounding HDMI connection. Sorry to say but I am not hearing very good things about HDMI and audio. It's only two channels but that still will allow you to access that audio via bypass and over HDMI.

Thanx, though I tend to agree with Ron that there are too many variables. And in any case, I'm not posting any advice in this thread (a fact that seems to have gotten lost), but instead asking why some Theta owners are defending the lack of HDMI in their pre-pros. As I asked earlier in the thread: don't you want to pour raw PCM data into your pre-pro so that your highest resolution sources (in particular) can take full advantage of every inch of circuitry in your CB3? Is that really so unreasonable?

Sanjay

Sanjay, that was the whole reason for this thread. No matter how happy I am with the Six Shooter using my HD DVD player's analog multi-channel output, I would like to have the option of using HDMI multi-channel instead, provided that hopefully it has superior sound quality due to using my CB3's Extreme DACs.
This thread has succeeded in getting the point across to Theta.

But some of the BS in this thread, like calling the CB3 a $15K remote control for the SS, is plain stupid. Hey, if thats the case, then the Halcro surround processors are also expensive remote controls for the multi-channel analog inputs, yet I don't hear anyone calling them names?

Bulldogger,

"The reports that I have gotten are that the Lexicon MC12HD actually sounds better using the analog bypass with the Toshiba HD-DVD player."

I love your 'reports' that you just pull out of nowhere... and you claim others are dishonest?

Here is a report for you... HDMI sounds better.

'I mean is it a far stretch to believe that DIY speakers with JBL drivers need correction to not sound boomy? If you were to say JBL the first thing I would think would be boomy."

Then the first thing you would think of would be wrong. The JBL drivers I am using are the same drivers used in the Revel Ultima Sub 15 but in a more optimally size cabinet. They are sealed designs tuned to a Q of 0.5. If you don't know what the means you really need to stop talking about things you are totally ignorant of....

But you are correct... now that I have experience with room correction it is something I would not want to go without. One of us is speaking from the position of experience, one of us is speaking from the position of ignorance and total lack of experience.

"What about resonances caused by the cabinet of a DIY design. "

Nope. The cabinets weigh in at around 100 pounds each (around 180 pounds with the drivers installed), are extensively braced and 1.5" of MDF.

Same old Bulldogger... when all else fails resort to ad hominem attacks. You do realize that is a logical fallacy don't you? It is always easy to tell when you are getting desperate......

Shawn

Why did you buy the Halcro when it did not have HDMI 7.1 LPCM support when you bought it? You said that it sounded better than the Lex which is why you did not switch back? How could you make that statement when at the time the Lex had 5.1 LPCM support and the Halcro does not? Hypocritical? Why did you switch to the Halcro? Aren't you now saying that it is better than any Lexicon that you have ever owned even before the 7.1 upgrade? How can it be when right now at this present moment it can not do 7.1 LPCM but then neither can the Lex? You were willng to wait? But if I am willing to wait, that is somehow folly? Again hypocritical. You do not get to decide how long a fair wait for a Theta owner is. I do because I am the one doing the waiting.
The bland, I asked before. I'll asked again. You are evading.

Bulldogger,

"The reports that I have gotten are that the Lexicon MC12HD actually sounds better using the analog bypass with the Toshiba HD-DVD player."

I love your 'reports' that you just pull out of nowhere... and you claim others are dishonest?

Here is a report for you... HDMI sounds better.

'I mean is it a far stretch to believe that DIY speakers with JBL drivers need correction to not sound boomy? If you were to say JBL the first thing I would think would be boomy."

Then the first thing you would think of would be wrong. The JBL drivers I am using are the same drivers used in the Revel Ultima Sub 15 but in a more optimally size cabinet. They are sealed designs tuned to a Q of 0.5. If you don't know what the means you really need to stop talking about things you are totally ignorant of....

But you are correct... now that I have experience with room correction it is something I would not want to go without. One of us is speaking from the position of experience, one of us is speaking from the position of ignorance and total lack of experience.

"What about resonances caused by the cabinet of a DIY design. "

Nope. The cabinets weigh in at around 100 pounds each (around 180 pounds with the drivers installed), are extensively braced and 1.5" of MDF.

Same old Bulldogger... when all else fails resort to ad hominem attacks. You do realize that is a logical fallacy don't you? It is always easy to tell when you are getting desperate......

Shawn
Same ole Lexicon fan boys. Do you really think my source wants to get involved with this debate or any on this forum? Lexicon is almost mass market so many dealers have it. Yes the source is a dealer. You can not assess whether the HDMI sounds better. You are forced to use the room correction. With Lexicon and all Harmon assets on the chopping block, I would not be to boastful. I burned my source when I said the MC12 was being replaced so I do not have a source there now. How long did it take for the MC12HD to be announced after that statement. Ha! What are the odds of me guessing about an replacement for the MC12? Doesn't the driver in the Revel sub require equalization? Think you proved my point.

Yes, this is a great test for any Halcro users considering doing the HDMI upgrade.

I have a Denon 3930 and a Toshiba HD-DVD player as sources. With these sources, the HDMI sounds better than the Analog Outs. I am sure that part is due to the better Halcro DACs/Processing, and part is that the Halcro has better Bass Management than these (and many other) sources.

The Halcro has a pretty good Analog bypass and I could see people that have better sources, end up with different results. For them the HDMI Audio upgrade may not be of much value.

Here's some free advice. The Halcro currently does 2 channel over the HDMI connection. Set your HD-DVD player to two channel and evaluate the difference between using the analog bypass and using the HDMI connection. BEFORE :D, you pay for the upgrade. Halcro's implementation of HDMI may be better than that of Lexicon or there may currently be no such thing as a great sounding HDMI connection. Sorry to say but I am not hearing very good things about HDMI and audio. It's only two channels but that still will allow you to access that audio via bypass and over HDMI.

Bulldogger,

"You can not assess whether the HDMI sound better."

Of course I can. Unlike you I have the option of listening to HDMI, listening through the analog bypass or listening through the 6 channel input with processing. I use HDMI.

Experience vs. ignorance.

"You are forced to use the room correction."

No, I choose to use it. Couple of clicks on the remote to turn it off. My bass is very good without it, it is better with it.

Again... experience vs. ignorance.

Shawn

You are forced. Your DIY design most certainly needs equalization. Ignorance is not knowing that. I note that you never post asking for any advice. That is truly ignorance. No one knows it all. You of all people.

Bulldogger,

" Unlike you I have the option of listening to HDMI, listening through the analog bypass or listening through the 6 channel input with processing. I use HDMI.


5.1, never 7.1. Bolt on implementation to . I suspect that all product development at Lexicon is frozen. That's what usually happens when your company get's put on the chopping block. You are going to have to spend money again and buy another processor to get 7.1 LPCM. MC12HD and 7.1 LPCM, SOL. THat's all assuming that there is a Lexicon around. If it is around, will the engineers be speaking Chinese?:D

Bulldogger,

"Your DIY design most certainly needs equalization. "

Keep telling yourself that. You can keep trying to attack that but anyone with half a clue would have run the numbers on the design before making a statement like that.

Experience vs. ignorance.

"I note that you never post asking for any advice."

Love the strawman arguement....

Shawn

"I note that you never post asking for any advice."

Love the strawman arguement....

Shawn
Oh, it's valid. All you have to do is search your post. Only an ignorant person thinks he knows everything because no one does. That's true ignorance, thinking you know it all.

"5.1, never 7.1. Bolt on implementation."

What is that supposed to mean?

"I suspect that all product development at Lexicon is frozen."

Unlike Theta Lexicon has their own internal engineering staff and doesn't contract develop overseas as Theta has done. There is no way that engineering staff is sitting around twiddling their thumbs, they are always working on something.

The Theta fanboy talking about frozen product development is ironic.....

Shawn

"5.1, never 7.1. Bolt on implementation."

What is that supposed to mean?

"I suspect that all product development at Lexicon is frozen."

Unlike Theta Lexicon has their own internal engineering staff and doesn't contract develop overseas as Theta has done. There is no way that engineering staff is sitting around twiddling their thumbs, they are always working on something.

The Theta fanboy talking about frozen product development is ironic.....

Shawn
Obviously you are ignorant about what happens when a company gets put on the chopping block. Let me enlighten you, product development is sometimes the first thing to stop. The choppers have to figure out where the money is going. Many times the best engineers start looking for better opportunity and stability. No one likes uncertain status and talented engineers usually do not have to suffer that. Sometimes they are the first to go.

"Oh, it's valid. All you have to do is search your post."

LOL, lame.... I'm sure you have checked all the various forums I have looked for and asked information in? And all the various people I have asked questions of? And all the various research I have done?

Strawman.....ad hominem..... strawman....ad hominem...... strawman....

"Only an ignorant person thinks he knows everything because no one does. That's true ignorance, thinking you know it all."

You are projecting.

I understand full well that the more I learn the less I know.

Your problem is you don't know what you don't know.

Shawn

"Oh, it's valid. All you have to do is search your post."

LOL, lame.... I'm sure you have checked all the various forums I have looked for and asked information in? And all the various people I have asked questions of? And all the various research I have done?

Strawman.....ad hominem..... strawman....ad hominem...... strawman....

"Only an ignorant person thinks he knows everything because no one does. That's true ignorance, thinking you know it all."

You are projecting.

I understand full well that the more I learn the less I know.

Your problem is you don't know what you don't know.

Shawn
There are many thing I do not know which is why you frequently see me asking questions. What I do know about from my experience with Cal audio is what can happen to Lexicon. I'd be surprised if some of the Lexicon engineers have not already left the company. Hey maybe they have some good engineers in China. I think the Chinese bought the Cal audio designs.

Obviously you are ignorant about what happens when a company gets put on the chopping block. Let me enlighten you, product development is sometimes the first thing to stop. The choppers have to figure out where the money is going. Many times the best engineers start looking for better opportunity and stability. No one likes uncertain status and talented engineers usually do not have to suffer that. Sometimes they are the first to go.

Of course Theta use to have their own developer and now goes overseas. Did the bean counters look for savings there?

People leave companies all the time for a variety of reasons. Just ask Mike Moffit, John B. and Mary Cardas. People leave Lexicon too.

Just the way it works. Anything more is FUD.

Shawn

Of course Theta use to have their own developer and now goes overseas. Did the bean counters look for savings there?

People leave companies all the time for a variety of reasons. Just ask Mike Moffit, John B. and Mary Cardas. People leave Lexicon too.

Just the way it works. Anything more is FUD.

Shawn
And they leave in droves when the company is put on the chopping block. DROVES. The advantage of a small privately owned company is that the company's fate is not determined by overseas interest, mostly again the Chinese these days. Hey maybe someone in Taiwan will get Lexicon. You never know?

"What I do know about from my experience with Cal audio is what can happen to Lexicon."

And you think Theta is immune to simply shutting their doors?

When Lexicon was purchased by Harman in the mid-90s they came through that just fine. When Harman consolidated a bunch of brands a few years ago (HSG) they came through that just fine too, unlike Madrigal.

Why?

They sell a lot of product.

YMMV but I'd be far more worried about Theta then Lexicon. Theta is obviously underfunded (reason upgrades takes so long, they don't have the resources to make it happen quicker), make odd product choices (Valis not a whole lot of people are going to be willing to replace their amps to buy one), and is missing features in their main product that more and more people are going to realize they want/need.

"The advantage of a small privately owned company is that the company's fate is not determined by overseas"

A companies fate is determined by the bottom line. Doesn't matter who is holding it or not. If CAL was profitable they would still be around. Ditto Madrigal, ditto Citation, ditto TAG, ditto Fosgate-Audionics....etc...etc.

Shawn

Gotta love the forum posters that go back and change their earlier responses....Note all of Bulldoggers edits above.....

"Doesn't the driver in the Revel sub require equalization? Think you proved my point."

Nope, you proved mine. You did not run the numbers.

Like I said already:

The JBL drivers I am using are the same drivers used in the Revel Ultima Sub 15 but in a more optimally size cabinet.

In the cabinet the Revel Ultima used the JBL Sub15 did need some EQ to extend the bottom end as the driver rolled off early in that cabinet because of that designs higher Q. Because of the higher Q it might have also used some EQ to deal with any peaking higher up.

In my cabinets (roughly twice the internal volume) they are by design flat to where my room gain would start to kick in. This combo also worked out to be critically damped (Q 0.5) which is anything but boomy. In room the subs are flat to at least 10hz, maybe lower... the RTA I used to measure them only went down to 10hz. All done by design and verified through measurements.

Ignorance vs. experience.

Shawn

time to tie a ribbon on this thread and close it

Thank you