"The freq's generated by the human voice is well within the range of an single driver and so the time and phase is one"

Not too many designs that are out there cover the range of voice with a single driver actually. And you make the assumption that a single driver is phase perfect... bad assumption. A single driver can have phase response problems just like it can have amplitude response problems.

DId you actually find out how they did the testing though? Voice could work just fine for testing audibility of phase. One way you test that sort of things is to electrically muck up the phase and see if on playback you can hear that. Reproducing it by a single driver (with good phase response) is a good way to test this since what you are listening for is the phase distrortions artificially induced/controlled by the test itself without the compounding changes through the speaker.

"I have found through the taking of acoustic courses at CEDIA taught by some of the better folks in their fields that the acoustics they are advocating for theater in application don't work well for 2 channel music. These theater rooms are far too over damped and are sterile in their presentation of good recorded music play back."

For 2 channel listening I'd probably agree with that.

But one more time... I don't listen in two channel. I am a die hard music in surround fan. I'd argue in that setup the less and less of the room you hear the better it sounds as that has been my experience. You no longer need the room adding its random homogenized ambiance to 'liven up' the presentation when you use the ambiance that is in the recording itself (often put there by a Lexicon btw) and reproduce it in the proper directions with actual speakers.

Shawn

I have also found that if you design the room with good music sound as a priority it is also a great sounding room to talk in and watch a movie in with amazing acoustics equal to or better than the room designed for movies only.



That my experience as well.

Ahh, vintage Steve. Note the inclusion of "not necessarily also the audiophiles among us." Lacking objective ability to demonstrate superiority, those golden ears get pinched again.

I've already told you that, years back when I chose between the Proceed PAV/PDSD and the Theta, I preferred the Proceed. I then migrated to Krell, and, hands down, the best processor in my system--for music, music, music, which is my primary reference listening--was the Lexicon MC12. :
I notice that you evaded stating which Casablanca version you tried. I also agreed with you about your conclusions. Theta moved forward however and provides significantly better sound now than the older original superior dacs. You would need to compare again to make an accurate assessment.

XA-2 and Panasonic.
I think there is some 6.1 LPCM stuff on Blu-ray? I know the Panasonic has the 7.1 analog outs. I am planning on picking up the 10a version. What does the Panasonic do when the soundtrack is only 5.1? Specifically are the additional channels just silent? Did anyone ever get an answer as to wheter the upgrade for the Halcro is going to be able to expand 5.1 to 7.1 with DDPLL II? I am certainly a 7.1 convert. I will never go back to 5.1 for movies and wish there was source material that was recorded at 7.1 for music as well. Just today I toyed with the idea of reducing some of my gear and turned off my back channels but really could not give up the extra channels. Also toyed for a moment with adding another channel and going to an 8.2 set-up. I have the extra channel now but figured three speakers at the rear was overkill.

Allen,

Thanks for the response.

You are right about the 802D specs, but I have a 32hz room mode. So in my room, the 802Ds are -0DB at 27hz, and -3db at 25 hz (as measured by my SMS-1).

I do have the 802Ds pretty far out from the walls. I have 50" free behind the speakers and 36" on the sides. The leaves about 72" in between.

I don't find the 802D lean in the low end, except I do have a 7db dip at 125hz, but I think that is due to the room.

I have tried the cross at 40hz. Since the bass in the 802D is tighter than my ported SVS sub, I have found that running the 802D full range, sounds better. I think that will change after I upgrade to a decent sealed servo type sub.

How far back should I tilt the 802D? My eyes are currently mid way between the upper woofer and the midrange. I already am looking up a little to the midrange and tweeters.

I recently moved from Krell Kav-250a amps to Classe CAM-350 mono block amps.

Goodsonics

Looking on the B&W site they list the 802d at 34-28K +or- 3bd and down to 27hz at -6 db. My guess would be that 24hz is about -9db.( nearly 1/2 as loud as a flat response is).

If I were you I would cross them over to the subs around 40hz. This will be room dependant and should be determined by actual room measurements. If you have your speakers out in the room at least 24", as you should, then you will find the bass will be far more powerful with less holes. Again measure it to be sure. I have also seen recording engineers tilt the B&W's back to help gain the time alignment aspect which let's them sound better. Try it on the left and right and see if your music doesn't sound more real. The goal is to get the tweeter to vertically align with the mid range and woofers. The lower freq's drivers sound comes from behind the dust covers in the middle of the drivers.

I only commented here not to engage you in an argument but I know the B&W product is a little lean on the bottom end. So I was certain that the 802d did not go as low as you were saying thus the look up on the B&W site and it's verification of my listening experience with their product.

What amps are you using with them?

Anything other than Krell will give you even less bass then the site claims. B&W uses krell to voice their speakers and I bet they use them for their measuring results too.

Goodsonics




I have found through the taking of acoustic courses at CEDIA taught by some of the better folks in their fields that the acoustics they are advocating for theater in application don't work well for 2 channel music. These theater rooms are far too over damped and are sterile in their presentation of good recorded music play back.

I have also found that if you design the room with good music sound as a priority it is also a great sounding room to talk in and watch a movie in with amazing acoustics equal to or better than the room designed for movies only.

I have concluded that the current trend is therefore going in a wrong direction IF MUSIC is at all important to the owner/listener.

For me music is an true passion and is also soothing to my world rushed, and over crowded soul. It allows me the emotional connection to the performance and the regenerating of my biological battery. Sounds corny I know but it is like a great massage for the soul.

All this adds to the reasons why I use and sell Theta. It does music EXTERMLY well and movies EXTERMELY well. The best of BOTH worlds.


Alan,

Loved your message.

I couldn't agree more. I have also taken a few of the Home Theater Design Courses at CEDIA. The techniques that they teach to lessen the difference between peaks and nulls in the room really tend to kill the bass energy in the room. CEDIA also tends to advocate over dampening the room. The result of which leaves you a dead sounding room with average bass.

I have found that if you can get the dimensions of the room as close to perfect as you can and use different construction techniques than what Grimani and others advocate,(techniques that reflect the bass energy back into the room instead of absorbing it) you can get an amazing room for two channel as well as multi channel theater. Many people that visit my showroom commment that it is the best sounding room that they have ever heard.

I would also agree with your comments on phase and time coherant speakers and find it suprising that Toole doesn't advocate it in the design of their higher end speakers.

MnBasser

I would also agree with your comments on phase and time coherant speakers and find it suprising that Toole doesn't advocate it in the design of their higher end speakers.


That's because phase and time coherence done in the analog domain has lots of compromises with questionable benefits. For example, such speakers have lower power handling and dynamics, along with worse dispersion. Phase/time coherence also only occurs at exactly two points in a room for non-coincident drivers.

--Andre

Andre

Have you ever listened to Dunlavy's? Very dynamic and fairly efficient. In most reasonable sized rooms there is an Vandersteen model for you. Phase is a problem in the recording profession overall. They are not keeping an eye on it and so all we can reasonably do is our part. Buying gear that treats phase in only one way. Some gear will invert phase too. I don't like this either.

In all designs I don't care how much they cost or who it is there will be some amount of compromise. Some are flawed from the beginning and no amount of marketing hype can help them. That being said in my book if dynamics are done reasonably well I would focus more on neutrality and flat freq response first. Vandersteens are second to none here. And he matches the stereo pair to within about 1/10th of a db. This is what gives you the unbelievable imaging that they deliver in spades. Dynamics can also be the fault of the amp or source equipment and not just the speaker.

Shawn

Lets not nit pick the phase part. I was not writing a white paper. I would hope that the driver and or speaker would be properly connected IE red to red and black to black. Yes I do know of flawed designs like the Wilson speakers for example that have some of their drivers connected out of phase so as to deliver a smoother freq response measurement.

As for multi channel music in high resolution you need to be very careful to deal with the first reflection points and yet not over dampen the room. Throwing foam or fiberglass on the walls along with diffuser panels as is advocated in CEDIA classes is way to heavy handed. They also give no attention to speaker placement other than to be sure to clear the sight-lines to the screen. Where the primary listener sits is only determined by the room modes but putting the speakers in a better place too will yield even better results. As for the prepro handling recorded ambiance. Good ones will do fine but the room in all instances will play a bigger role here depending on the room treatments or lack there of.

Again not a white paper just an light discussion.

I will follow up with this firm statement, however, if you (meaning any reader) consider yourself to be a critical listener and have assembled an fair high quality rig if you are doing little or nothing with PROPER speaker placement and listening seat location and little or nothing with room treatments not room EQ first, you have a long way to go before you learn how truly your gear sounds. The room and placement have such a huge effect on what you hear as to nearly make null and void what it truly can sound like. This is no exaggeration.

Time and again I have seen folks bring material in to demo in my room and while they have a good system often more $$$ than mine they are bummed by how much better mine sounds then theirs. Interestingly when confronted with this reality their reaction is not to take my advice and treat their room but they would rather spend more $$$ on replacing some or multiple pieces in their systems.

Have you ever listened to Dunlavy's? Very dynamic and fairly efficient.


Yes, and they're good speakers, but their quality does not hinge on the fact that they're a phase coherent design. They will also suffer from dynamic limiting as things get louder, and will never approach a Revel's dynamic response, for example.

--Andre

Anything other than Krell will give you even less bass then the site claims .

I'd like to see that scientifically proven.

Is anyone using a HD-DVD player with their SSP80/100? I have the A1 player. The sub seems to be about -15DB down (I use the 80hz crossover setting).

Since Halcro doesn't have a LFE boost, I have been setting all the speakers levels in the A1 (except for Sub), at -12DB. I am loosing a lot of headroom by doing this.

Has anyone found a better way to set this up?

Thanks,
Darrell

Update your firmware and it is also known that some erleases (Phantom, Last Samurai, and Million Dollar Baby) were recorded too low. Are you using HDMI?

Jeff,

I have version 2.1 of the A1 firmware, and am using the Analog Outs so I can enjoy the TruHD audio. I use the Avia calibration disk to set levels.

Regards,
Darrell

Is the SSP 80 still a supported model? Not much happens when you select it at the website. Is this simply the same as the 100 with no VP section?

I have no use & have never liked the idea of my video processing & audio done in the same chassis although I concede that new HDMI protocols are pushing us that direction.

I'd like to see that scientifically proven.

You will need and anechoic chamber and MILISSA and the speakers and amps to do this but I guess it could be done, just not by me. Let me know how the test turns out. :)

Yes, and they're good speakers, but their quality does not hinge on the fact that they're a phase coherent design. They will also suffer from dynamic limiting as things get louder, and will never approach a Revel's dynamic response, for example.

--Andre

Seems like you are stuck or at least strongly favor one speaker performance parameter ie dynamics. If this is the case try looking at super efficient horn loaded speakers. They have dynamics in spades just very colored too. I heard some huge theater speakers at CEDIA over at the Gentleman's Club being driven with Bat mono blocks and Theta CBIII. The demo was a western "Open Range". During the gun fight scene the shots were so loud about 130db+ that the impact hit you in the chest and you felt as if you were being shot at.

They were behind the screen which was a woven material. The speakers moved so much air that the screen was flapping around and the image was blurred by the air movement.

No doubt the most dynamic experience I have ever had short of a real gun but let's get real for a moment.

At these levels I would lose every client in about 5-10 years as those who bought one of these systems would all be DEAF.

In this case more is BAD. These are not accurate speakers either. Just big and loud.
As I pointed out before when you have REASONABLE dynamic presentation then ACCURACY AND FLAT freq response are far more important. ACCURATE BALANCE is the strong point of a good speaker. They should or better still must do all things well. And some things should be state of the art if possible.

I find time and phase correct speakers have amazing detail and sound staging. I also find non TPC speakers to be too detailed due to hearing the tweeter lead the music which to me is fatiguing and unnatural sounding.

Jeff,

I have version 2.1 of the A1 firmware, and am using the Analog Outs so I can enjoy the TruHD audio. I use the Avia calibration disk to set levels.

Regards,
Darrell

I know the Toshibas have had many issues with low LFE w/ analogs. It is in the player. With those issues, I decided to skip TRUE HD via analogs on my SSP-100 and go straight COAX. HDMI audio also gave me issues with HD DVD (not Blu Ray) in that I tried to send Bitstream and the Halcro converted it to 2 ch LPCM... So, I am using COAX digital for audio on HD DVD and all is well. The HDMI / LPCM upgrade can't come soon enough.

I wish I read this thread two weeks ago.

I’m a Theta CB3 owner (also own a Casanova) and have been upgrading my theater a fair amount lately and wanted to enjoy HD audio today. I did a bit of research and thought the only product that supported HDMI audio (and 1080p video) was Anthem. The D2 had glowing reviews so I bought one.

I’m still putting it through its paces, burning it in, but I’m fairly disappointed so far. I wasn’t able to audition one beforehand and took to heart all the glowing reviews (here and elsewhere). The sonics are nowhere close to the Casanova, let alone the CB3. I guess I should have known from the price, but so many people swore the sonics were good. I’m probably just spoiled. :-)

So, what does a SSP100 street for?

Ian if you read that 8000 page thread you would have seen that there are as many people who are unhappy with the D2 as there are who are happy with it. Only problem is that the happy ones outpost the unhappy owners about 10-1.

I would agree with you that the sonics are not in the same ballpark when comparing a D2 to a CB3 or Halcro but, I would suggest you wait on the fence for September when all the companies will be releasing new HDMI 1.3 processors. Right now everything is just a "band aid" fix and not ground up design implementing the new architecture.

Lol... I did try to read that entire thread, but I probably ended up skimming a bit. I should have looked *outside* the thread. :-)

For some reason I just assumed a Halcro was in the same company as a Lex (which I dislike sonically), but it now sounds as if it's more in line with a Theta.

Thanks for your opinion about waiting for Sept.

Lol... I did try to read that entire thread, but I probably ended up skimming a bit. I should have looked *outside* the thread. :-)

For some reason I just assumed a Halcro was in the same company as a Lex (which I dislike sonically), but it now sounds as if it's more in line with a Theta.

Thanks for your opinion about waiting for Sept.

I second the opinion on waiting but with the Halcro it might just be a month. The Multichannel LPCM upgrade will allow you to enjoy the new HD audio formats decoded through the player. The HDMI 1.3 upgrades may be more around January for most High End pre-pro's as the developer kits were sent out only a few months ago. If Denon has not yet begun shipping there HDMI 1.3 receivers you can imagine how much longer a high end company would take to get it right.

The Halcro is definitely in another league sound wise as compared to the Anthem and Lexicon. The only thing those other 2 have on it is ease of use and more flexibility.

I've been thinking about the suggestion to wait but I'm wondering "who will announce something that I would be interested in?"

If I was willing to settle for mid-fi, then I'm sure there would be more choices - and it might come down to features (and I'm guessing Anthem would lead the pack), but there aren't that many high-end companies making surround processors.

What's the best way to research what the Halcro offers - the website didn't have much detail - for example, is there any EQ options - or in the very least - digital tone controls? Would downloading the manual be my best bet?

Thanks...

I know the Toshibas have had many issues with low LFE w/ analogs. It is in the player. With those issues, I decided to skip TRUE HD via analogs on my SSP-100 and go straight COAX. HDMI audio also gave me issues with HD DVD (not Blu Ray) in that I tried to send Bitstream and the Halcro converted it to 2 ch LPCM... So, I am using COAX digital for audio on HD DVD and all is well. The HDMI / LPCM upgrade can't come soon enough.

I actually had that problem to but if you go into the Toshiba audio menu and change the HDMI audio to bitstream then it should work fine. The default is PCM for HDMI audio and we can't enjoy that until after the upgrade.

I've been thinking about the suggestion to wait but I'm wondering "who will announce something that I would be interested in?"

If I was willing to settle for mid-fi, then I'm sure there would be more choices - and it might come down to features (and I'm guessing Anthem would lead the pack), but there aren't that many high-end companies making surround processors.

What's the best way to research what the Halcro offers - the website didn't have much detail - for example, is there any EQ options - or in the very least - digital tone controls? Would downloading the manual be my best bet?

Thanks...

Halcro is still in it's infancy when it comes to SSP's but there customer service gets back to me each time I e-mail them. You should try sending them an e-mail with your questions.

There are no eq options as of yet and have no idea if one is in the works.

From my experience Anthem, Meridian and Lexicon are usually among the first with upgrades. Meridian is an excellent company but the G68 XXV I owned prior to the Halcro was overpriced IMO and the Halcro is a better movie processor.

I love having the latest options but can't imagine trading in my Halcro for anything except maybe the Mark Levinson No 40. I can't imagine the ML No 40 being any better for movies though than the Halcro but have never had a home audition.

Anthem D2 is a good all around performer, but it is mid-fi. Works great for most people and has the HDMI 5.1 capabilities plus a good video scaler.

Did you try hd-dvd with true HD of blu-ray uncompressed with it ?

For music, i suggest the analog pass thru. with a lot of break-in, it's "ok".

Is the SSP 80 a current Halcro product??

The SSP-80 is still on their website .

I know the Toshibas have had many issues with low LFE w/ analogs. It is in the player. With those issues, I decided to skip TRUE HD via analogs on my SSP-100 and go straight COAX. HDMI audio also gave me issues with HD DVD (not Blu Ray) in that I tried to send Bitstream and the Halcro converted it to 2 ch LPCM... So, I am using COAX digital for audio on HD DVD and all is well. The HDMI / LPCM upgrade can't come soon enough.

Hi Jeff,

I found a little bug in the firmware of my SSP80 that might be in your SSP100 that will get you the correct levels and give you the +10 boost on the sub. It seems that the analog 7.1 bypass is not actually bypassing the DSP. The last input you select has it's presets applied to the 7.1 analog input. So what I did was select an input I am not currently using (Input4) and applied a +10 boost to the sub level via a preset. Went back forth using the DVE HD DVD and set my levels through the SSP80 and not the Toshiba HD A1. Now I have TRUE HD and it is all level matched. Sounds great.
Now all I have to do before watching something via the Analog 7.1 is first select Input 4 and then select 7.1.
Going to exploit this until the HDMI update is available. It's been working well for me so far.

Dennis

Hi Jeff,

I found a little bug in the firmware of my SSP80 that might be in your SSP100 that will get you the correct levels and give you the +10 boost on the sub. It seems that the analog 7.1 bypass is not actually bypassing the DSP. The last input you select has it's presets applied to the 7.1 analog input. So what I did was select an input I am not currently using (Input4) and applied a +10 boost to the sub level via a preset. Went back forth using the DVE HD DVD and set my levels through the SSP80 and not the Toshiba HD A1. Now I have TRUE HD and it is all level matched. Sounds great.
Now all I have to do before watching something via the Analog 7.1 is first select Input 4 and then select 7.1.
Going to exploit this until the HDMI update is available. It's been working well for me so far.

Dennis


What does setting the volume level in the surround processor have to do with DSP processing?

In the CB3, in the Menu, you can set volume to be done analog, or via digital. Analog is recommended as better sounding as digital doesn't have enough bits to sound as good as analog.

Perhaps the Halcro surround processors do convert using DSP and therefore do volume in the digital domain only? I don't know.

Surround processors give a 10 dB boost to the LFE signal when digital audio is input to the processor. this is the standard. But no such standard was set for when an analog LFE signal is input into the surround processor. That's the dilemma.

What does setting the volume level in the surround processor have to do with DSP processing?

In the CB3, in the Menu, you can set volume to be done analog, or via digital. Analog is recommended as better sounding as digital doesn't have enough bits to sound as good as analog.

Perhaps the Halcro surround processors do convert using DSP and therefore do volume in the digital domain only? I don't know.

Surround processors give a 10 dB boost to the LFE signal when digital audio is input to the processor. this is the standard. But no such standard was set for when an analog LFE signal is input into the surround processor. That's the dilemma.

The Presets of the Halcro also allow me to change bass and treble levels, along with other options.

This is definitely a bug in their software. An analog passthru is supposed to be just that. The SSP should not be able to effect anything other than volume control on this input.

That being said I don't use the Halcro for analog listening with the exception of HD DVD sources. The Halcro SSP80 is a great Home Theater processor but two channel preamp it is not. I'd give it average marks for analog playback.

If I want to listen to two channel I go to my other system where I use an Aesthetix Janus preamp. Now that's where I get to enjoy two channel analog in all it's glory. ;)

Before you ask, yes I do still spin vinyl. :D

Edit: For Spelling

Ian_Currie

Sorry to hear that you basically wasted some $$$$ on the lower quality sounding Anthem D-2 pre-pro.

As you can see, as of today, the Halcro multi channel HDMI input for audio is a no show. Some here had mistaken their two channel inputs for multi channel HDMI input. This was later discovered to not be so.

So now they are in the same boat as Theta users. There is NO multi channel HDMI input yet.

Now also thanks to the candor of Dennis we see that there are some software bugs in the Halcro product just like Theta has also. It comes down to if the bugs bug you or not for either of these pre-pros.

With that out of the way I have to ask.....

Do you have the Six Shooter in your system?

If not then I think this would have been your best bang for buck purchase as it allows you to take advantage of the loss less audio from HD-DVD AND BluRay. Or SACD or DVD audio.

At $2000 retail it is far less than the Anthem and would have afforded you more options and far better analog audio options and sound in your current system.

If you can afford to I would sell the Anthem and buy a Theta Six Shooter. It is well worth the admission price. Those here who have one can not believe how good it is and how fairly priced it is also.

If you have a Theta dealer near you ask him if you can demo one in your home. If you can, I doubt you will want to part with it once you have tasted how yummy it sounds.

Theta just like Halcro and others too will have HDMI 1.3 soon. When, exactly, is not clear. Even the Halcro folks don't know when Halcro will release. they are hopeful but....

I would wait to be sure any ones HDMI 1.3 implementation was done well BEFORE I invested in their gear. The one thing you can be sure of, Theta will have at or near the best sound in the world. It is just how they are. They will NEVER be first out with anything except for the external DAC which they created the market category. They still make some of the best DAC's in the world. The Gen VIII is awesome.

The company that comes out first will always sell units but in about a year or sometimes less others enter the market and those first out are usually soon forgotten. The High end will always be slower as they will not rush to market and lose their reputation on cobbled together sound. It must live up to their past high performance or they risk losing all they have worked to gain in the past. In the high end one bad product can just about ruin you.

I like that Theta continues to be a safe bet with few serious missteps. They have yet to disappoint sonically. They also work very hard to not only get good sound but try to keep upgrades reasonable too. This leads to customer and dealer loyalty.

Folks appreciate a good value every time. ;)

Seems like you are stuck or at least strongly favor one speaker performance parameter ie dynamics.

I wonder why you find it necessary to characterize my personal preferences on the little evidence that you have. I only pointed out that analog phase coherent speakers have dynamic limits relative to higher-order crossover speakers. In addition, since these phase coherent speakers have low-order crossovers, they will also have more distortion.

My tests were done with acoustic music played between 70 and 80 dB SPL, not movie soundtracks with special effects played back at 130+ dB. Nor do you need horn speakers with high efficiencies to hear a TPC speaker's dynamic deficiencies.


I find time and phase correct speakers have amazing detail and sound staging. I also find non TPC speakers to be too detailed due to hearing the tweeter lead the music which to me is fatiguing and unnatural sounding.

I don't doubt what you heard, but I doubt the reason you give for what you heard. There are so many design choices involved in a speaker that it is highly doubtful that TPC is responsible for what you heard since so many other things can and do affect its sound.

The best way to test the efficacy of TPC is to use a high-quality DSP to subtract excess phase from a non-TPC speaker. This way, you can be sure that they only thing that changed was the TPC of the speaker, and you can compare the sound with the DSP in digital bypass and in active correction.

--Andre

Allen,

I elected not to purchase a Six Shooter (even though I had a great opportunity to do so at one point). At the time I only had an SACD player and too small a library to justify it (remember, one has to purchase 6 decent cables to go along with the 6S).

Now, I just can't see the point. I could use it for my Toshiba HD-DVD player, but I just can't see the DACs in that unit being up to snuff when compared to the CB3. Then of course, I'd need another 6S for Blu-ray (and I currently use a PS3 which doesn't have analog outs). On top of that, it's just a temporary solution; there's something so beautifully clean about having one connection for both audio & video between a player and a processor, along with the improved sound quality from Xtreme DACs, that it would ultimately be cast aside once Theta delivers HDMI support.

I've had my Theta from the CB1 days and have watched it grow and I've enjoyed a good relationship with Theta. That being said, when I bought the unit, Theta was promising a built in scaler and parametric EQ, both of which never happened. I realize things can take longer than expected and in that time things can change. I probably shouldn't fully consider a Halcro until they deliver (the upgrade) as I can see it's taken longer than expected.

I'm pretty confident Theta will deliver great sounding HDMI support, and for that reason I will keep my CB3 (I do wish they would include some form of EQ option though).

While I admit I was hoping to love the D2, I did purchase it as a stop-gap solution. I'm going to see how quickly Halcro implements HDMI audio and at that time decide if I want to change over from the D2 to the Halcro (again, if only temporary). My understanding is the upgrade from Theta will only occur at the end of 2008 (but I could be wrong); I need a solution in the meantime.

Thankfully in my case, I have a separate 2 channel system so the D2 would primarily be used for movies (and the odd concert disc).

OK, not allot of folks have Halcro's but I went ahead and purchased an SSP 100 and MC50 about three weeks ago. I also have a Anthem Statement D2, Emotiva DMC-1 and MPS-1 and some Bel Canto amps as well as Martin Logan Speakers. I will post pictures of the setup later. I purchased the Halcro because of its stellar looks and all the hype I have read about the sound. Heres my issue, I have the Halcro connected via HDMI to the following, a Integra DPS-10.5, Samsung BD-P1000, Toshiba HD-1A (1st gen) and a 70 inch JVC D-ILA TV. I am having serious HDMI issues with the samsung bluray unit, it wants to keep reverting to 1080p (JVC TV only accepts 1080i inputs even though its a 1080p unit). I have all the latest firmware in the units except for the Halcro. I have held down the power button to see what version I have on the Halcro and that will not bring it up on the display or TV. The next strange thing the unit does is upon bringing up any menus everything loses the HDMI handshake and I have to start all over by turning everything off and then back on, what a nightmare. Anyways, if anyone has any thoughts please let me know. My IR sensor is not working on the Halcro either (and its new) but I spoke to the great folks at Halcro (They really are great folks) and they are going to fix it.

Also, as far as comparing units. The Anthem D2 is built like a tank, its very heavy compared to the Halcro and works flawlessly with the above mentioned items. I was really shocked to see the size of the power supply in the Anthem vs the Halcro as the Anthem's is huge. The Anthem also is much easier to setup as its menu and user features bury the Halcro in every way. To compare scalers is useless as I do not use them, but its obvious the Anthem wins there as well. Now, I have used the Anthem with my Bel Canto Ref 1000's and also the Emotiva MPS-1 and here is something you may be shocked to hear, I like the MPS-1 over those and even the MC50. The MPS-1 has a warm and very fat sound and seems to round the edge off my movies which I seem to enjoy. With SACD and CD it also those same qualities and creates a wonderful relaxed sound without sounding even the slightest strained. The speakers I use are Ascent-i's for my main speakers and rears and a cinema-1 for the center as well as two grotto subs placed in opposite corners. I am hoping to report all is well with the Halcro and its gives me the stellar sound I crave otherwise my Anthem will be here for a long time. FYI as you may already know the LPCM upgrade begins in the first week of july and is around $1500.00, another thing the Anthem D2 did right out of the gate. PS - I hate HDMI!!!

Its official, $1399.00 for the LPCM upgrade. Don Cassidy is the east coast sales manager for Halcro and that is the source. I hope that helps..:)

Woo Hooo!!

I hear there is a HDMI revision / firmware update as well to be impleented with rhe LPCM update. I think the Halcro is a 2 year old HDMI device..this is long overdue. I have had zero Halcro HDMI issues until the latest 2nd gen HD DVD firmware update (1.6). Now my XA2 won't pass anything over 480P though my Panasonic BD player, Comcast DVR, and Pioneer DVD player pass the desired 1080i!! All was fine with my HD DVD player with the 1.5 update. Bugger!

THe blankning on your screen is the OSD. It is 480P and that changes the HDMI output to 480P to display it and causes that change on the screen. THere is no way around it, My previous Lexicon did this as well. IT is a PITA. I use the monitor out with a 6" LCD screen at my theater seat to monitor the Halcro without disrupting the big screen.


I, too, am looking forward to the latest HDMI update for the Halcro...and the LPCM upgrade.

I can tell you that the need to reboot your players after hitting the OSD is likely related to the players. The HD A1 was a problem with me as well until I went with the A2 and then the XA2. Now no loss of handshake regardless of what I do. The Samsung is also a 1st gem BD player (and not the best one either). It may also be the issue. Try some second gen players if the latest Halcro update doesn't help you. There are no such issues with my newer BD / HD DVD players losing handshake..

Give the Halcro tmime to break in....you'll like it...a lot.

Wow, the Halcro is lighter than the Anthem? I was so shocked at how light the D2 was when I took it out of the box - it almost biased me right there. Both my Theta's are twice as heavy.

CoyteShawn, I'd be most interested in your comparisons of sound quality between the two units.

And I agree with you about the design of the D2. I have to admit the features are well thought out and implemented well.

Got the same type of info as well Jeff.

I logged in about 3 separate issue HDMI issues with Halcro. They were able to recreate them in the lab. Got the news last week that all of them are addressed in the new update and cleared testing in Finland.

Also got news that the HDMI update modules have arrived in the US. Halcro is now updating select dealers for field testing and to figure out the logistics for the deployment. If there are no problems I'd guess that it should be made available to us in about a month. Keeping my fingers crossed. :)

Wow, the Halcro is lighter than the Anthem? I was so shocked at how light the D2 was when I took it out of the box - it almost biased me right there. Both my Theta's are twice as heavy.

CoyteShawn, I'd be most interested in your comparisons of sound quality between the two units.

And I agree with you about the design of the D2. I have to admit the features are well thought out and implemented well.

Felt the same way when I received my SSP80. Thought boy is this thing light weight. Well I'll tell you, when it comes to HT processing it is a heavy weight. :)
You won't be disappointed. You need to let it break in for a while. But when it does you be quite impressed.

I agree that the Anthem is one of the easiest and most tweakable units around but when it comes to sound quality the Halcro wins hands down IMO.

I have not had any HDMI issues with my SSP-100 and I hope it stays that way with the LPCM/HDMI updgrade............. Oh I can't wait............. I wonder if I can drive it down to Vegas myself. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

I too have heard from my dealer that the upgrade boards are already here and they are figuring out how to implement the upgrades.

I went with the A2 and then the XA2.

Hey Bland,

Did the XA2 offer up better HD DVD playback than the A2 and did you think it was worth it? I am not concerned with the DVD playback, only HD DVD.

Thanks

Mike

Ian,

I have the SSP80 and thought it was a light weight myself when I unpacked it. I went from the Anthem AVM-20 which weighs about 29 pounds and the SSP80 is listed at 30 pounds.

I guess I anticipated a heaver piece, but after I connected everything the weight pretty much was forgotten. One of the items that first disappointed me with the Halcro was the ability to tweak the SSP. The Anthem had a tremendous amount of versatility to make changes on the fly.

However, after setting the Halcro to my desired configuration/s, again, all was forgotten. It is a stellar piece for home theater and it's not a lightweight for music. I listen quite a bit to multichannel high res and it is close to an AVP2 + 6 that I also own.

For the record, this is my second unit as the initial box had heightened floor noise. I contacted my dealer and Halcro sent me a replacement no questions asked. The new box corrected the problem. My point is that Halcro has supplied excellent customer service in addressing my problem.

Charles

I have not had any HDMI issues with my SSP-100 and I hope it stays that way with the LPCM/HDMI updgrade............. Oh I can't wait............. I wonder if I can drive it down to Vegas myself. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

I too have heard from my dealer that the upgrade boards are already here and they are figuring out how to implement the upgrades.[/QUOTE]



BS Not true.

I have not had any HDMI issues with my SSP-100 and I hope it stays that way with the LPCM/HDMI updgrade............. Oh I can't wait............. I wonder if I can drive it down to Vegas myself. :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

I too have heard from my dealer that the upgrade boards are already here and they are figuring out how to implement the upgrades.



BS Not true.[/QUOTE]

Do you know something jbm007 that you would like to share with the rest of us? Or are you saying that I did not hear from my dealer?

I have spoken with Halcro tech support regarding a possible DC offset in my center channel XLR out. I switched to the RCA outs until they can check to see if indeed the XLR is off. I was told by the tech that the upgrade is soon and they will repair the problem if there is one at the same time. I spoke to my dealer at the same time and was told this.

All dealers received an email today. The first sentence makes it clear that we are not to discuss the emails content on ANY forum. That said, I do not think it is violating the intent of the email to say that "YES" the upgrades will begin very soon.

Jim

It's about time...although I was told June, oh wait it's June

All dealers received an email today. The first sentence makes it clear that we are not to discuss the emails content on ANY forum. That said, I do not think it is violating the intent of the email to say that "YES" the upgrades will begin very soon.

Jim

You are correct: Jim

Jim

Is anyone using a turntable a source with the Halcro? If so, do you have a preamp between the table and the Halcro?

Is anyone using a turntable a source with the Halcro? If so, do you have a preamp between the table and the Halcro?

Although the Halcro has multi-channel analog inputs, from stuff in this thread
it "sounds" like its not a true analog bypass/direct mode. Didn't someone say they can use the bass management or other digital features using the analog input. If so, then it must convert to digital, process, and back to analog.

I could be wrong. Does anyone have better info?

If the Halcro does the conversion steps to the analog input, i seriously doubt turntable fanatics would want to use it an analog preamp.

The Vinci platform for the NHT Controller has analog bass management, so I can't imagine the Halcro doesn't.

That would be me Steve. Found that the analog section is not isolated. I can modify it via the presets. Which tells me that the analog and digital signal paths are not separate. Now there is a Balanced Stereo input that may not be effected this way. Don't know, have not tested it.

Goodsonics, as amazing as the Halcro SSP80 is for HT I would not hookup my turntable to it. If you are looking for a stereo preamp with a built in phono stage the Halcro DM10 is quite impressive.

Currently I have my TT hooked up an Aesthetix Janus preamp.

Dennis,

Do you have the preamp and Halcro connected so you can use the same amps and speakers with both the TT and Digital sources?

Regards,
Darrell

Hi Darrell,

I don't today but at one time I did. The Aesthetix Janus has a HT passthru that is unity gain. The SSP80 would pass through the Janus to my Accustic Arts AMP II.

Changed things up and separated the systems. Have a dedicated two channel system (Clearaudio Champion Sp. Ed. TT, Aesthetix Janus, Accustic Arts AmpII) and dedicated HT (Halcro SSP80 and Theta Dreadnaught II).

Could not go the other way as the SSP80 did not have a unity gain passthru.

I did not want to continue wasting tube hours on the Janus doing passthru functions. Running NOS tubes that are difficult and expensive to replace (Amperex Bugle Boys 6922's & RCA 12AX7's circa 65-66).

Hi Darrell,

I don't today but at one time I did. The Aesthetix Janus has a HT passthru that is unity gain. The SSP80 would pass through the Janus to my Accustic Arts AMP II.

The Aesthetic designer's work is cloned in the Theta Six Shooter as he used to work for Theta. Still SS is not tubes and my one complaint about it is that even though it is more transparent than the tube pre-amps I have tried, it does not have the sound stage of a good tube pre-amp. I have never tried the Aesthetix stuff but have to get around to it.

nus to my Accustic Arts AMP II.

Changed things up and separated the systems. Have a dedicated two channel system (Clearaudio Champion Sp. Ed. TT, Aesthetix Janus, Accustic Arts AmpII) and dedicated HT (Halcro SSP80 and Theta Dreadnaught II).
.
Is this the turntable you have? http://www.needledoctor.com/Clearaudio-Champion-Limited-Edition?sc=2&category=45

The Aesthetic designer's work is cloned in the Theta Six Shooter as he used to work for Theta. Still SS is not tubes and my one complaint about it is that even though it is more transparent than the tube pre-amps I have tried, it does not have the sound stage of a good tube pre-amp. I have never tried the Aesthetix stuff but have to get around to it.

Was wondering which one of the Theta gurus here was going to point that out. ;) :)

That would be Jim White you talking about. He had a big influence in the design of the Casablanca.

Couldn't agree with you more about SS vs tube preamps. As good a SS is these days it just can't create the full and large sound stage you get from tube. If you have the right tubes of course. ;)

If you get a chance to go listen to the Aesthetix you be quite please with what you'll hear. Just one thing though. The tubes the product ships with are not very good, Sovtek. They are a noisy tube and don't really show what the piece is capable of. Once I switched to NOS tubes it was like I was listening to a different piece of gear at a whole new level.

Is this the turntable you have? http://www.needledoctor.com/Clearaudio-Champion-Limited-Edition?sc=2&category=45

Nope, they have the wrong picture. This is it here. The only difference is mine is clear acrylic.

http://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/default.asp?redirect=http://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/stoneaudio/products/browser2.asp?MOVE=NEXT&manufacturerid=117&CurrentPage=2

Dennis,

There is a DSP/Bypass setting for the Balanced Inputs. I think this is a true bypass when one uses the Bypass setting.

I had been running my SACD/DVD-a through the unbalanced 7.1 input and it sounded ok, but then I switched to the 7.1 balanced connections. It is smoother and you can hear more detail.

After re-reading the spec, Halcro does say the Balanced inputs are Analog Bypass, but don't use the word "bypass" when referring to the unbalanced connections.

Now I have to go back and listen to all my SACD & DVD-A on the right input. Damn... :D

Regards,
Darrell


That would be me Steve. Found that the analog section is not isolated. I can modify it via the presets. Which tells me that the analog and digital signal paths are not separate. Now there is a Balanced Stereo input that may not be effected this way. Don't know, have not tested it.

I have the Halcro SSP100 and have been very satisfied with the HT sound, but have been searching for an improvement for my 2 channel by adding tube preamps into the mix. I have been able to audition at home the ARC LS16, CJ CT5, VTL 6.5, Aesthetix Calypso and BAT 51SE. As a result of all my hours of listening, I have to say I am more impressed with the Halcro for 2 channel. I thought it was every bit as good as the ARC LS16. All the other preamps offered some degree of improvement over the Halcro, as well they should (the BAT lists for the same as the Halcro itself), but given the cost I really struggled with spending so many $$$ for a modest although definite improvement. Also, all of these units offer unity gain for HT, but as far as I know only the Cary SLP05 has true bypass where you don't have to use tube hours when listening to HT. Unfortunately I was never able to audition the Cary.
In the end I was able to get a really good deal on a used BAT, now that the 52 is out and bit the bullet. The "modest" improvement add more than I expected to my enjoyment. The music is more immediate and involving, the sound stage is better, the detail is improved- it all adds up. I also find I don't mind "wasting" tube hours on HT, as my mains sound better going through the BAT with the unity gain in multi-channel. Vinyl is the most improved- it has me listening to my records again one after the other.
My other gear is: Pass Labs X5 amp, Wilson WP7s and WATCH center and surrounds, Talon ROC sub, Esoteric DV50S, VPI Scout, Dynavector 20 XH cartridge and Sony PS3 for blu-ray.

I wonder why you find it necessary to characterize my personal preferences on the little evidence that you have. I only pointed out that analog phase coherent speakers have dynamic limits relative to higher-order crossover speakers. In addition, since these phase coherent speakers have low-order crossovers, they will also have more distortion.


I found this was your point in your posts. Kind of hard to miss as it was (dynamics) what you said. As for distortion what exactly do you mean? Vandersteen has patented drivers to deal with the higher demands that 1st order X overs bring. Vandersteens have probably the the flattest freq response and they are very clean and more than reasonably dynamic. the 3asigs are +or- 1.5db. They easily show the differences in gear and can keep up with the higher $$$ and better sounding stuff. Have you had a chance to listen to them properly set-up in a good room? I think THD and IMD are easily heard and yet no one has ever complained about this in Vandersteen reviews EVER!

My tests were done with acoustic music played between 70 and 80 dB SPL, not movie soundtracks with special effects played back at 130+ dB. Nor do you need horn speakers with high efficiencies to hear a TPC speaker's dynamic deficiencies.

I have not found 70-80db tough to handle in any competent speaker. Thanks for the added info as to what you were trying to say. Since you were doing tests what were you using and how was it carried out? What was the setup etc?



I don't doubt what you heard, but I doubt the reason you give for what you heard. There are so many design choices involved in a speaker that it is highly doubtful that TPC is responsible for what you heard since so many other things can and do affect its sound.

The best way to test the efficacy of TPC is to use a high-quality DSP to subtract excess phase from a non-TPC speaker. This way, you can be sure that they only thing that changed was the TPC of the speaker, and you can compare the sound with the DSP in digital bypass and in active correction.

"Any time you mess with the sound you will harm it. I find the best way is to actually listen to the same music but with different speakers. If it is done right, and yes it can be done , it will show you what you need to make a good and reasonable decision. By the way I have listened to the NHT DSP speakers and I find them not too good sounding. I think it is more of a sales gimmick than good sonics science IMO"

--Andre

My responses are in bold

It looks like TheBland is going to do the HDMI Audio upgrade. The price looks like it is going to be $1399. If this is correct, how many others plan to do the upgrade (or not)?

I had planned to do the upgrade when it looked like th price was going to be in the $750 range. But after looking at things more closely, I don't think I will.

SACD can't be passed over HDMI, so it won't help that. It can pass and potentially improve my DVD-A and HD-DVD play back.

With all that goes on in a movie sound track, I think we will hear some improvement in going to TruHD, but now a huge amount of difference. DVD-A would show noticaible improvement.

But, for $1500 I could get my universal player modded which would improve my SACD, DVD-A, CD and SD DVD playback. I think this is bigger bang for the buck, for my situation.

So what are others thinking about the upgrade?

Regards,
Darrell

SACD can't be passed over HDMI, so it won't help that.Would you consider using player that converts DSD to PCM? That would allow you to play SACDs through the Halcro, treating them like any other digital source (full use of bass management, time alignment, etc). It's the same way people listen to the new hi-rez codecs, like TrueHD, via HDMI.

Sanjay

Isn't standand PCM limited to 16bit / 48khz?

Do you know any players that would pass a 24bit / 96khz signal via HDMI?

"Isn't standand PCM limited to 16bit / 48khz?"

No.

"Do you know any players that would pass a 24bit / 96khz signal via HDMI?"

That is what you would get from your DVD-As over HDMI for example.

Shawn

Hmm, well the players I have seen, and the one I own, do not pass SACD out via HDMI. I am open to switching players if you know some that do.

The PS3 does.

Do you know any players that would pass a 24bit / 96khz signal via HDMI?Sure. For example: the Oppo 970 will pass DVD-A at 96/24. It will also convert SACD to PCM at 88.2/24. DSD's sampling rate is the CD rate (44.1) x 64. So when converting to PCM, you'll usually see some multiple of 44.1. The PS3 converts DSD to PCM and can output at 88.2 or 176.4 (user selectable) via HDMI.

The Oppo only costs $149. At that price, you could try one out just to use as a dedicated hi-rez music (SACD & DVD-A) player. Don't let the low price fool you. All you need is a drive that will pour raw PCM data into your pre-pro, and let it handle the rest.

Sanjay

My Theta David II can output 96 kHz and so can the Compli.

Sanjay,

Does the Oppo 981 HD convert PCM the same as the 970 via HDMI?

Does the Oppo 981 HD convert PCM the same as the 970 via HDMI?Yes, when playing SACDs, the 981 will convert DSD to multi-channel PCM for transmission through HDMI.

Sanjay

There is a very interesting review of the Oppo 970 in Stereophile and the reviewer was shocked by the digital output. You can read the review online.

I actually picked up a Oppo 970 myself to try with the Halcro HDMI upgrade when I finally get it.

I will tell you though the Beatles Love DVD Audio sounds spectacular through the 5.1 analog outputs of the Oppo feeding the Halcro's analog input. It is a night and day difference as opposed to going digital with the dolby digital track or CD track.

I am wondering if there are any other SACD players that will pass DSD through the HDMI without first converting it to PCM and if the Halcro will accept it? I wonder if it really makes a difference?

Well, the only way you're going to keep DSD throughout is if your processor is doing no processing at all (no bass management, no matrixing, no room correction) and if your DACs accept a DSD direct signal in. Otherwise, the DSD data is going to be converted to PCM eventually.

The conversion process is a combination of low-pass filtering and downsampling, with the target rate usually 88.2kHz or 176.4kHz, which are nice even divisors of the DSD rate. Different source devices and/or processors could use different filter coefficients and word sizes to perform the filtering, so it is entirely possible for different devices to produce audibly different results. Whether they do or not in practice, I do not know.

I will tell you though the Beatles Love DVD Audio sounds spectacular through the 5.1 analog outputs of the Oppo feeding the Halcro's analog input.Keep in mind that the Oppo converts DSD to PCM before sending it to the internal DACs. It's not converting DSD directly to analogue, which is why you can do things like bass management and time alignment in the player.

When using the analogue outputs on the Oppo, you're listening to the player's DACs and analogue stages. When you pour that same PCM data into your pre-pro via HDMI, you'll be taking advantage of the Halcro's DACs, analogue signal path, etc. Should make for a noticeable improvement.

Sanjay

Keep in mind that the Oppo converts DSD to PCM before sending it to the internal DACs. It's not converting DSD directly to analogue, which is why you can do things like bass management and time alignment in the player.

When using the analogue outputs on the Oppo, you're listening to the player's DACs and analogue stages. When you pour that same PCM data into your pre-pro via HDMI, you'll be taking advantage of the Halcro's DACs, analogue signal path, etc. Should make for a noticeable improvement.

Sanjay

Me like!!!!!!! High Five :D

The LPCM upgrade is alot more than just a basic software update and it is $1399.00 confirmed. I spoke to Gary Barker with Halcro USA and the upgrade requires new boards, software and some upgrades to even non-LPCM related items. From speaking to the folks at Halcro this is really going to be a great update and I think it will be well worth the price. They are going to provide more details very shortly about what the upgrade will add. Again, this is more than a small update to just add LPCM. If you looked inside your Halcro you will notice the main DSP/CPU (Moto 56367) is on a swappable daughtercard . There is an additional DSP/CPU on the HDMI board (Moto 56371) so its got plenty of power and the whole thing is upgradable. From what I understand this will solve most HDMI issues, correct firmware, fix minor issues like remote IR sensors and add the LPCM we all seem to crave. Halcro is only looking at the possiblility of HDMI 1.3 in the future (not so near). As you all know a processor cannot decode the HD audio formats unless HDMI 1.3 is available, however HDMI 1.1 or greater can pass the already decoded HD audio from a players internal processors. If you look at the Oplus HDMI board on the Halcro you can pretty much bet that it will need to be completely replaced in order to update to HDMI 1.3. As far as cost issues, remember Anthem is charging for their HDMI upgrade (I understand that its a whole HDMI upgrade with a Gennum scaler), but Halcro has said this upgrade is going to be about that big. So I think all us Halcro owners need to partake in this upgrade. Again, more info will be released by Halcro when they are ready to receive our units for upgrade.


It looks like TheBland is going to do the HDMI Audio upgrade. The price looks like it is going to be $1399. If this is correct, how many others plan to do the upgrade (or not)?

I had planned to do the upgrade when it looked like th price was going to be in the $750 range. But after looking at things more closely, I don't think I will.

SACD can't be passed over HDMI, so it won't help that. It can pass and potentially improve my DVD-A and HD-DVD play back.

With all that goes on in a movie sound track, I think we will hear some improvement in going to TruHD, but now a huge amount of difference. DVD-A would show noticaible improvement.

But, for $1500 I could get my universal player modded which would improve my SACD, DVD-A, CD and SD DVD playback. I think this is bigger bang for the buck, for my situation.

So what are others thinking about the upgrade?

Regards,
Darrell

Coyoteshawn,

Do you have any photos of the internals of the Halcro?

I've looked all over the net and have not been able to locate any. I did take a peek inside mine with a torch, but it's difficult to get a clear view. Of course, I would not remove the cover as I assume it voids the warranty.

If you know of any URL links or have some personal photos you'd be willing to share, I'd greatly appreciate it.

Thanks,
Charles

Great news! When is halcro going to ask for mail ins?

I know they need to swap a board to do the HDMI Audio. The description is pretty sparse on details, which I understand because Halcro hasn't made thier announcement.

I assume you have been informed of something not disclosed below as you say "So I think all us Halcro owners need to partake in this upgrade." I hope it is more than "this will solve most HDMI issues, correct firmware, fix minor issues like remote IR sensors ". We should have to pay an upgrade fee to fix things that should have been right at release.

I guess those of us that are undecided need to wait until the announcement to see if anything else of value is in the upgrade.

The LPCM upgrade is alot more than just a basic software update and it is $1399.00 confirmed. I spoke to Gary Barker with Halcro USA and the upgrade requires new boards, software and some upgrades to even non-LPCM related items. From speaking to the folks at Halcro this is really going to be a great update and I think it will be well worth the price. They are going to provide more details very shortly about what the upgrade will add. Again, this is more than a small update to just add LPCM. If you looked inside your Halcro you will notice the main DSP/CPU (Moto 56367) is on a swappable daughtercard . There is an additional DSP/CPU on the HDMI board (Moto 56371) so its got plenty of power and the whole thing is upgradable. From what I understand this will solve most HDMI issues, correct firmware, fix minor issues like remote IR sensors and add the LPCM we all seem to crave. Halcro is only looking at the possiblility of HDMI 1.3 in the future (not so near). As you all know a processor cannot decode the HD audio formats unless HDMI 1.3 is available, however HDMI 1.1 or greater can pass the already decoded HD audio from a players internal processors. If you look at the Oplus HDMI board on the Halcro you can pretty much bet that it will need to be completely replaced in order to update to HDMI 1.3. As far as cost issues, remember Anthem is charging for their HDMI upgrade (I understand that its a whole HDMI upgrade with a Gennum scaler), but Halcro has said this upgrade is going to be about that big. So I think all us Halcro owners need to partake in this upgrade. Again, more info will be released by Halcro when they are ready to receive our units for upgrade.

What HDMI upgrade is Anthem charging for? 1.3?

I do understand what you mean by "These things should have been working already." especially since the Halcro units are so expensive. When a unit like the Halcro comes out and tries to tackle all of the issues at one time I tend to expect issues. When I first had my Anthem D2 at version 1.02 I had alot of HDMI issues that did not get fixed (especially with the 1st gen HD-DVD player) until 1.10. I myself think a more reasonable $700 to $800 for such high-end gear to be upgraded is more in line, but most of the high-end companies like Theta, Sonic Frontiers, etc. tend to charge alot more for their upgrades. A perfect example of this pricing difference is the Denon 5805. The upgrade for a 5805 to allow scalling up to 1080P (It was 1080i max originally with a lower quality CPU) was only $999.00 and some dealers were installing the units even cheaper. Some may not look at the 5805 as "High-end" but I assure you it qualifies. The one thing that bugs me about Halcro is their "lack of info" as they do not even update their website news section. I think they need better PR and keep the folks updated with even some basic news nd events. Anthem is a little better at that stuff and allows owners to do firmware upgrades which are so very easy (I wish Halcro would allow that). To be honest with you, Emotiva has been wonderful at keeping their customers informed and also if you call them up usually Lonnie will tell you all about their great products comming in the future (Yes I own Emotiva items, no I do not rep them). To answer the question about the internal workings of the Halcro, its based on a ref Titan 2 Vinci labs platform with an Oplus HDMI scaler. You can email vinci labs as a prospected developer and they will send you great info. Also if you angle your Halcro and shine a light inside you can clearly see the DSPs, one in the lower left side and the other in the upper right on the HDMI board. Also alot of Burr Brown (BB) op amps and such.

I know they need to swap a board to do the HDMI Audio. The description is pretty sparse on details, which I understand because Halcro hasn't made thier announcement.

I assume you have been informed of something not disclosed below as you say "So I think all us Halcro owners need to partake in this upgrade." I hope it is more than "this will solve most HDMI issues, correct firmware, fix minor issues like remote IR sensors ". We should have to pay an upgrade fee to fix things that should have been right at release.

I guess those of us that are undecided need to wait until the announcement to see if anything else of value is in the upgrade.

What HDMI upgrade is Anthem charging for? 1.3?

I did ask Anthem if the upgrade to HDMI would be 1.3 when the first D2 and AVM-50's were rolling out and was told by a tech that they had no plans for 1.3 as it really did not add much. I am not sure what there position on 1.3 is now and I would have to think a HDMI 1.4 is in the horizon with locking connectors so installers could get some sleep ;)

I just want this current upgrade and am not too concerned about 1.3 right now.

Anthem is a little better at that stuff and allows owners to do firmware upgrades which are so very easy (I wish Halcro would allow that).

You have to be joking? Customers allowed to update firmware on a $ 10,000.00 piece of equipment? To be honest with you, ask any dealer and he will tell you the worst nightmare is allowing customers to do their own tweaking or modifying a product, including firmware..

Emotiva has been wonderful at keeping their customers informed and also if you call them up usually Lonnie will tell you all about their great products comming in the future.

And what would you do with the information? Wait longer for that new model? Complain about the cost of the upgrade, or the fact it is not upgradeable.

BTW tell me one product out there that has worked with HDMI right out of the box. There isn't any. They all have had issues. HDMI is pure marketing crap; designed to allow full control over the digital domain by big brother.

I don't seem to remember anyone here saying I really want HDMI over component or SDI. Anyone? Yet we just cannot seem to wait for the next version of HDMI as if it has some new feature we just can't be without.

BTW the whole unit needs to completely opened up, all boards have to removed. One of the new boards needs to be seated along the bottom of the main board. Hope that info just helped someone.

JBM,

What is so hard about doing a firmware upgrade? You plug in the cable, ensure you have connectivity, start the process, and DON'T power off the machine during the process. What's so $%$% complex about that???

That is much less riskier than shipping your box to and from Halcro. The mail services will destroy more boxes than the users.

I agree HDMI 1.3 doesn't seem to offer anything now, but HDMI audio has advantage for those who want the Halcro to do the DAC on high res signals.

Regards,
Darrell

I've done more than fifty firmware upgrades to my Lumagen VisionPro HDP over the past few years no problem.

Done a number of firmware upgrades to my Theta CB3, too, not one problem.

JBM,

That is much less riskier than shipping your box to and from Halcro. The mail services will destroy more boxes than the users.

Regards,
Darrell

I agree on the shipping comment. I've had two SSP80's delivered in the past 3 months and every time the Fed Ex ground person handed it to me, the bottom of the box was hanging on by a thread of tape and I mean a thread. The first box the driver handed to me sideways and I almost had a panic attack as the bottom part of the carton was open and I am NOT exaggerating.

I can't say I've done hundreds of upgrades, but with my AVM-20, firmware upgrades were painless and very easy to complete. They were pretty much idiot proof if you were able to read simple directions. It's easy to understand if boards need to be swapped, why the box needs to be sent to the Vegas location. However, with firmware updates, it makes no sense to me (unless I am missing something) why a user needs to send the entire unit back to the manufacturer.

Also, I agree on the website being out of date. Halcro really needs to take a step up and be a lot more proactive in sharing information. As one poster noted, the last entry is 6/2005. That's 2 years ago!! Gezzzz...

quote "They were pretty much idiot proof if you were able to read simple directions."

I rest my comments on those words. Steve, You and Goodsonics know what you are doing; along with many other individuals that post here. Unfortunately you are not the norm.
I agree the website sucks, and needs to be updated.

If you do not feel comfortable doing firmware upgrades then by all means send it back to the company, but my 8 year old could do a software firmware upgrade as these are very easy. I think we should be given the choice. Even when sombody screws it up nine times out of ten you start over and it works fine. If by some off the wall chance the EPROM gets corrupted then you just replace it, its a cheap fix. My martin logan center channel speaker had a bad power supply inside and Martin Logan sent the parts and walk through the process on the telephone and we took the whole speaker apart, replaced the powersupply board, reconnected the wires and it worked great. Quick, no shipping, simple, and finshed in 25 minutes and I was up and running without having my center speaker gone for weeks.
I was reading about the new Denon seperates and high end receivers and they will have WiFi built in for things like streaming audio and firmware updates, I think that is wonderful. About my comment with Emotiva, if you are made aware of a companies plans for the future (upgrade/products) you feel more informed and can make plans to either incorporate these items or move another direction. Even the Emotiva could be upgraded as the CPU also sits on a daughter card. The problem with Halcro is they almost never update their website and getting info is next to impossible. Some companies even have their own forums on that companies website which is wonderful as well. We owners are the ones who discover all the issues and we are also the ones who discover common fixes.
As for HDMI, I agree 110% HDMI is awful, and the copy protection freaks have made it that way. Fox has even stopped releasing any new blu-ray discs because the copy protection scheme was cracked. Those schemes will always get cracked. HDMI in theory is wonderful and should have been a great product from the start. But the idiots at the movie / music companies are so worried about copy protection they forget that their loyal customers suffer because of a few hackers or piraters. Just look at all the HDTVs that were 1080P compatible but only had 1080i inputs, that was a result of the same paranoia.
And finally, that is correct the whole unit has to be opened for this upgrade. I was told that it takes between 4 and 5 hours to do the upgrade at Halcro, so that is a big upgrade.

Anthem is a little better at that stuff and allows owners to do firmware upgrades which are so very easy (I wish Halcro would allow that).

You have to be joking? Customers allowed to update firmware on a $ 10,000.00 piece of equipment? To be honest with you, ask any dealer and he will tell you the worst nightmare is allowing customers to do their own tweaking or modifying a product, including firmware..

Emotiva has been wonderful at keeping their customers informed and also if you call them up usually Lonnie will tell you all about their great products comming in the future.

And what would you do with the information? Wait longer for that new model? Complain about the cost of the upgrade, or the fact it is not upgradeable.

BTW tell me one product out there that has worked with HDMI right out of the box. There isn't any. They all have had issues. HDMI is pure marketing crap; designed to allow full control over the digital domain by big brother.

I don't seem to remember anyone here saying I really want HDMI over component or SDI. Anyone? Yet we just cannot seem to wait for the next version of HDMI as if it has some new feature we just can't be without.

BTW the whole unit needs to completely opened up, all boards have to removed. One of the new boards needs to be seated along the bottom of the main board. Hope that info just helped someone.

What HDMI upgrade is Anthem charging for?

The Anthem upgrade that they charge for upgrades thier older (non HDMI) Statement D1 preamp that was released in 2004 (before HDMI) to their current D2. It adds Gennum VPX scaler and 4 HDMI inputs, 1 output, 1080p, etc to the D1. Since it's upgrading an older platform to a newer one, I don't think it compares to the Halco $1300 LPCM audio upgrade needed on thier current unit.

$1400 ($1399 actually). Don't fall for the xx99 marketing ploy, round correctly... :cool:

its only money............... $1399 is still cheaper then $1400
How many people here are going to tell their wife its onsale?

Now if the upgrade improved the scaler .................. na I don't think I should go there.

Don't forget, specific dated purchases on these Halcro SSP's are eligible for a $500 credit towards the upgrade. I don't know what the purchase dates are to qualify for the credit. This knocks the price down considerably. That $500 could purchase a few bottles of "The Blands" favorite wine. :D

Check with your dealer if you recently purchased one.

Does anyone know the cutoff date, or is this another deeply held Halcro secret?

The reason I ask is the dealer I bought from, doesn't sell Halcro any more.

JBM,

What is so hard about doing a firmware upgrade? You plug in the cable, ensure you have connectivity, start the process, and DON'T power off the machine during the process. What's so $%$% complex about that???

That is much less riskier than shipping your box to and from Halcro. The mail services will destroy more boxes than the users.

I agree HDMI 1.3 doesn't seem to offer anything now, but HDMI audio has advantage for those who want the Halcro to do the DAC on high res signals.

Regards,
Darrell
Of the many customers we have installed Theta Digital's various components, I don't think one could do a firmware update correctly. You must understand that Forum Members are a special breed. We all live and breath this sport. Most homeowners who love a great install, great sound, video, and ease of use don't have clue why the things you install do what they do. They just know that you did a great system that's easy to use and looks and sounds great. They need us to keep them up to date. You Forum Members don't generally need your hands held, but most everyone else does. Regards, Norm

Norm,

But would these same users go to a vendor's website to look for a firmware update? All we are saying about the firmware updates is that they should be on the Website so people who do want to do it themselves, can. Those that like the dealers to do everything can still mail in thier units.

I contend that the users that would go to a website to see if there is a firmware upgrade available, could do the upgrade if decent instructions are provided.

Regards,
Darrell

Does anyone know the cutoff date, or is this another deeply held Halcro secret?

The reason I ask is the dealer I bought from, doesn't sell Halcro any more.


You would have received a coupon with your purchase directly from the dealer. No coupon, no discount.

Thanks, JBM.

I was told a few weeks back that upgrades would start last week of june first week of july. This may sound impatient but its the first week fo july. Any of you guys and gals hear anything on the grapevine? I hate bugging the Halcro folks. I have my $1399.00 burning a hole in the ole pocket..:)


Shawn...:)

You prefer to bug us, rather than Halcro? They are the ones that are "late" with the update. :rolleyes:

But, if you prefer an update from another customer than one directly from Halcro, I will make one up for you. The upgrade went well, and now the birds sing beautiful songs outside my window. Sometimes I can even here them when the Halcro is off. :D

On a more serious note, I think it says something when customers feel more comfortable asking other customers, than asking Halcro. They are a tight lipped bunch, and finding out what is in a firmware upgrade is harder than finding launch code to nuclear weapons.

Halcro really doesn't communicate to it's customers well. Everything is such a big F***ing secret.

I would rather bug you guys, but you are very correct on the "Secret" Halcro society withing the company. What also amazes me is how little you can find out about any Halcro upcomming items like the EC800 that has been looming for a very, very long time and the UNI90 DVD player which I think never saw the light of day other than the mockups at CEDIA and such. There "News" section on their website has not been updated in a few years. I never looked at it that way, but I do feel better asking other owners. If you email or talk to the guys in australia its a whole different feel than the guys here in the USA, they are more open about things. It took me three weeks of constant emails and calls to Halcro to find my nearest dealer dealing with the USA folks, it took 24 hours when I contacted australia. I found about the inner workings of the Halcro because of Vinci Labs and they sent a whole information kit for the Titan II platform on which the Halcro is based, some of us guys like the techy stuff. I have been running comparisons between my Halcro SSP 100, Anthem D2 and my Emotiva DMC-1 using the MPS-1 amp and my Bel Canto Ref 1000s / M300s on the rear. I have been writing notes, doing some serious listening tests and even borrowed my very good friends Anthony Gallo Ref. 3.1s along with my Martin Logans to see how all these compare and if the $10K proccessor is any better than the others. I am going to take my sweet time because I think its worth doing, besides its alot of fun. I will post some pics and give you guys some info on my findings which will be in no way scientific, just strictly listening tests and design critiques. Back to Halcro, perhaps we should let them know that their "Secret" society is bad for business. I will say this again, the folks at Anthem and Emotiva will tell you everything you want to know and are on top of things including their websites and that to me says alot. Your not supposed to be secret about your "Already on the market" product unless their is something to hide. I will send and email to the folks at Halcro to find out why they find this form of business healthy. Sorry for my long windedness!!!

Personally, Halcro can do whatever they want. It is there company.

The problem is I like the sound of my unit better than anything else I have owned or heard. So, I am pussy whipped.

Things are coming soon but not soon enough.

Personally, Halcro can do whatever they want. It is there company.

The problem is I like the sound of my unit better than anything else I have owned or heard. So, I am pussy whipped.

Things are coming soon but not soon enough.

Jeff, you have a "Theta" like attitude, one prevalent among us Theta owners. Luving better sonics, patience and more patience re upgrades.

Jeff, how come the Lexicon owners never blast you for switching from Lex to Halcro, how you must be hearing things, like us Theta owners get???

Heck, I was talking about regular firmware upgrades, not the big HDMI upgrade. They won't even tell you about regular software only upgrades.

Jeff, how come the Lexicon owners never blast you for switching from Lex to Halcro, how you must be hearing things, like us Theta owners get???

Steve,

Just out of curiosity, what was the point of that comment? Did it add any knowledge or productive information to the thread? Or was it simply a gratuitously inflammatory statement meant to ignite an argument?

The reason I ask is because in a previous thread you recently started ("Surround Processor Wars - Mine Is Better Than Yours -- For Me, That Is"), you wrote: "I'd like to suggest that folks post in this thread in a positive vein. Don't discuss someone else's surround processor. Discuss your surround processor and why it fits the bill for you."

Perhaps you might consider following your own suggestion for a change? Your compulsive need to bash Lexicon products and the people who own them, apropos of nothing, is tiresome and ugly.

Philip Brandes

Well yes, Philip, but in that the post immediately preceding the one you quoted, Steve did exactly what he was admonishing others not to do. ("Don't discuss someone else's surround processor.") You've got all the information you need to answer your question right there. But let's give credit where it's due: it takes real brass ones to propose a rule you just violated!

You folks misread and misinterpret. I've been wondering where Michael Grant was as he luvs to bash me.

I didn't put down Lex in my comment. I asked why folks who always jump on us when we luv Theta over something else ain't jumpin' on Jeff for changing from Lex to Halcro???
I guess cause you're to busy jumpin' on Theta luvers like me. HAAAAAA!!!!@@@@

No, we don't misread and misinterpret. You're far too transparent to misinterpret. Like I said, the post before you said thisDon't discuss someone else's surround processor.you said this:But someone else might not care about multi-channel high resolution music.
And even redbook CD might not be all that important. Movies and tv may be the priority. And the room may have some substantial room node problems and need for bass taming where built-in digital EQ like in the Lexicon MC-12 is really helpful.
My Theta CB3 and Six Shooter may well not fit that person's subjective needs at all. And the fact that this person can use his Lex HDMI for multi-channel audio really works for him.Not that difficult, really.

You just can't stand up to your own posturing, that's all.

And no, I don't love to bash you; I respond in irritation, not joy.

C'mon, Michael, I thought I'd taught you to not get sucked in the hard way! :)

What I like about Steve is that he actually never bothers me in the slightest. He never makes me feel like attacking him personally or his gear or whatever. I am generally amused by his comments because they're easily dismissed if you don't agree. Maybe I'm too similar? Who knows..........

C'mon, Michael, I thought I'd taught you to not get sucked in the hard way! :)

What I like about Steve is that he actually never bothers me in the slightest. He never makes me feel like attacking him personally or his gear or whatever. I am generally amused by his comments because they're easily dismissed if you don't agree. Maybe I'm too similar? Who knows..........

Yea, you and I have never had any problem at all. We can agree or disagree, doesnn't bother me. But with Michael "THE DOG" Grant I have my own personal attack dog that follows me around the forum. He's a real winner!!!@@@gone

I still say its funny: If a Theta luver says they like Theta more than Lex musicwise, the Lex guys come up with all the reasons Theta luvers have to be wrong and inaccurate in their personal assessment. But they haven't gone after Jeff for changing from Lex to Halcro and saying that Halcro's better. Why aren't they making the same excuses for Jeff being wrong about Halcro that they do about Theta luvers about Theta? Can't figure that one out - except that mebbe its just become more of a personality thing that the DOG only attacks when it smells Theta. HAAAAAAA!!!@@

C'mon, Michael, I thought I'd taught you to not get sucked in the hard way!You can give yourself some credit, John, you're a far tougher nut!

And now as you see above, Steve's gloves are off, and he's proving Philip's point all the more. What's funny is he's wrong; there simply is no parallel here. If Jeff says his Halcro sounds better than his Lex, that's fine. So it does. I certainly have no beef with Steve's claim that he likes the sound of the Theta better. He said it, I believe it. In fact if Theta gets HDMI going before my house is done (and at my pace, it's possible) it is on my short list, along with Lex and Meridian, in part because of what I read here, and my own first-hand experience with Theta gear.

If only he'd stop at the subjective, there'd be no debate. That means not suggesting that those who might reach a different conclusion "don't care about multichannel music" or "redbook CD", or have a room with "substantial room node problems", etc. etc. And yes I know that was a prototypical "someone else" but such comments are prototypical of his entire approach: those who don't like the Theta as much as he must be objectively compromised somehow.

I found this was your point in your posts. Kind of hard to miss as it was (dynamics) what you said.


Yes, but I was not, as you said, "stuck or at least strongly favor one speaker performance parameter ie dynamics." Dynamics is the most obvious failing of TPC speakers.

As for distortion what exactly do you mean?

Non-linear behavior, which doesn't have anything to do with exhibiting flat frequency response.

I have not found 70-80db tough to handle in any competent speaker.


Then you need to listen more carefully.

"Any time you mess with the sound you will harm it. I find the best way is to actually listen to the same music but with different speakers. If it is done right, and yes it can be done , it will show you what you need to make a good and reasonable decision. By the way I have listened to the NHT DSP speakers and I find them not too good sounding. I think it is more of a sales gimmick than good sonics science IMO"

Well OK, but that is a non sequitur. I proposed an experiment whereby you can prove or disprove the intrinsic value of TPC, since that is what we were discussing, and you give me this nonsensical reply.

NHT's Xds don't even use their DSPs to do TPC, so I'm not sure why you need to slam them here.

--Andre

Good god Allen, I thought *I* was supposedly the pompous ass of the forum, you make me look like an amateur. Andre is way ahead of you on this and is in complete control of the actual facts rather than some spiritual 1st order belief system. And, good grief, Xd is *all* about good science. First order is the gimmick since it is provably unsound as a basis upon which to design a speaker. I've added DEQX to a Thiel speaker and the improvement was dramatic - resolution, imaging, coherence, soundstaging, refinement, all improved. And it was still time/phase coherent at the end of the day.

If only he'd stop at the subjective, there'd be no debate. That means not suggesting that those who might reach a different conclusion "don't care about multichannel music" or "redbook CD", or have a room with "substantial room node problems", etc. etc. And yes I know that was a prototypical "someone else" but such comments are prototypical of his entire approach: those who don't like the Theta as much as he must be objectively compromised somehow.

Michael, you read into stuff what you want to. But anyone who has actually followed my posts over the years knows thats not my attitude. You guys go after Alimental saying he distorts what OB has said - but you do it, too.

If a Theta luver says they like Theta more than Lex musicwise, the Lex guys come up with all the reasons Theta luvers have to be wrong and inaccurate in their personal assessment. But they haven't gone after Jeff for changing from Lex to Halcro and saying that Halcro's better.You've (almost cleverly) stated the opposite of what really occurs: Theta luvers make claims of objective superiority that are wholly unsupportable while Jeff expresses his personal preference for the Halcro. Not the other way 'round, as you've described above. That's the difference. No one is going to argue Jeff's preference, especially when he's clearly enjoying the sound of his Halcro. But when you and your ilk state Theta's sonic superiority asthough it is some obvious foregone conclusion, you're bound to be asked to back it up (what you refer to as bashing). Of course, there is no metric, no objective measurement that can be trotted out to support those claims. And that's when the name-calling begins.

This difference in behaviour goes beyond just the products themselves. You can see it in how each group treats the manufacturers. It's not uncommon to see some Halcro owners use harsh words about the company's lack of communication and express impatience for the multi-channel PCM upgrade (price, delays, etc). No blind worship there. Meanwhile, Theta luvers desperately look for anything they can use to disparage the current state of HDMI, even exagerating the usefullness of features like Deep Colour. Why? Because Theta doesn't have it. Have Halcro owners ever downplayed multi-channel PCM just because they don't have it? No. They've been clammoring for it, making it clear that the upgrade can't get here soon enough. They're excited about new technology (even when messy and imperfect), rather than being bitter about not having it at the moment. mebbe its just become more of a personality thing that the DOG only attacks when it smells ThetaOh it's not the hardware that "smells".

Sanjay

Theta luvers make claims of objective superiority that are wholly unsupportable while Jeff expresses his personal preference for the Halcro. Sanjay

Not at all. I've said many times that my opinion is my own subjective opinion, whether in my system or having heard demos, and that's that. But you Lex luvers rave after us if we say that we didn't care for the Lex surround processor.
The only way to cure you Lex luvers of this obsession is for you to find an alternative surround processor like Halcro and then peace occurs.

I just revised my signature to try to make it more clear to you folks that my preferences are my own - follow my lead at your own peril. HA!

you Lex luvers rave after us if we say that we didn't care for the Lex surround processorWhat would it matter to any Lex owner what you cared or didn't care for? You're giving yourself too much importance. It is unsupportable and/or misleading claims that are questioned. Not you.

Sanjay

What would it matter to any Lex owner what you cared or didn't care for? You're giving yourself too much importance. It is unsupportable and/or misleading claims that are questioned. Not you.

Sanjay

Does it matter? Perhaps it shouldn't, but it does. Thats why Lex luver Michael "THE DOG" Grant always dogs me. That's why you come after me.
That's why other Lex luvers chime in. If it doesn't matter, prove it. Quit dogging me with personal attacks.

Halcro is really Lexicon spelled backwards .......................

I owned a Citation surround processor... I changed.

I owned a Meridian 565....I changed.

I owned a Lexicon MC-12B....I changed.

I now own the Halcro SPP-100.......???

I think the difference here is Steve has had his one CB for alomst 10 years. He's marrried to it. In that time, I have had 4 surround processors. I have never found a 'superior' product. Just a great product at the time in my system. That's why I have always flipped pieces out of my system. Any piece I have ever owned is great at first and then I look for something incrementally better after I tire of it..

The main reason I went to the Halcro and not the updated Lexicon was 2 fold:

1. I did not like the trade up program. Thought it far too expensive for what you got. Moreover, no 1080P and only 5.1 LPCM rather than 7.1.

2. I had heard good things about the Halcro from my dealer (who also sells Lexicon). The cost was not much more than the cost I would have paid Lexicon for the upgrade. So, for me, it was an invitation to try a new piece.

*Note I did not change because I was unhappy with the sound of the Lexicon. Had the upgrade plan met my expectations mentioned above, I probably would've gone with Lexicon again.. Do I prefer the sound of the Halcro now? Yes.. In my system, it sounds a bit smoother. That said, in another system the Lexicon may come out on top. THe Lexicon is a reference piece. I considered Theta but there lack of any digital (HDMI) solution made them easy to quickly dismiss.

I really like the sound of the Halcro. But as my history suggests, I am always open to any product from any manufacturer at any time. THere is ALWAYS something new and better on the horizon and I won't ever pigeon hole myself to any one manufacturer.

Hope that explains what you asked, Steve...:)

I owned a Citation surround processor... I changed.

I owned a Meridian 565....I changed.

I owned a Lexicon MC-12B....I changed.

I now own the Halcro SPP-100.......???

I think the difference here is Steve has had his one CB for alomst 10 years. He's marrried to it. In that time, I have had 4 surround processors. I have never found a 'superior' product. Just a great product at the time in my system. That's why I have always flipped pieces out of my system. Any piece I have ever owned is great at first and then I look for something incrementally better after I tire of it..

The main reason I went to the Halcro and not the updated Lexicon was 2 fold:

1. I did not like the trade up program. Thought it far too expensive for what you got. Moreover, no 1080P and only 5.1 LPCM rather than 7.1.

2. I had heard good things about the Halcro from my dealer (who also sells Lexicon). The cost was not much more than the cost I would have paid Lexicon for the upgrade. So, for me, it was an invitation to try a new piece.

*Note I did not change because I was unhappy with the sound of the Lexicon. Had the upgrade plan met my expectations mentioned above, I probably would've gone with Lexicon again.. Do I prefer the sound of the Halcro now? Yes.. In my system, it sounds a bit smoother. That said, in another system the Lexicon may come out on top. THe Lexicon is a reference piece. I considered Theta but there lack of any digital (HDMI) solution made them easy to quickly dismiss.

I really like the sound of the Halcro. But as my history suggests, I am always open to any product from any manufacturer at any time. THere is ALWAYS something new and better on the horizon and I won't ever pigeon hole myself to any one manufacturer.

Hope that explains what you asked, Steve...:)

Jeff, thanks, that makes great sense for you.

Now, I really haven't stayed with the same surround processor. Your surround processors weren't upgradeable, essentially becoming new ones with new and better features and sonics, except for your Lex MC-12. Mine has been. If Theta hadn't provided this with a reasonable upgrade path pricewise as well, I certainly would have switched, too.

I owned a Denon preamp/processor - - - I changed.

I owned a Citation 7.0 surround processor. Citation promised a reasonable price upgrade for the new Dolby Digital and DTS formats - they didn't provide it. I changed.

I owned a Theta Casablanca 1 surround processor, with the new DD and DTS formats.

Next when offered I added a Circle Surround 1 card - man did that help with Dolby Digital 2.0 stuff and I liked it for music CDs, too.

Next I changed to a new and better surround processor, better sounding.
The new Theta CB2, which was upgraded from my Theta CB1. Instead of paying for a new surround processor and selling my old one at a big loss, I did the upgrade for a very reasonable price. Felt like getting a brand new processor and ditching the old one, which wasn't nearly as good sonically or functionally.

Next I upgraded from Superior to Extreme DACs, so my Theta CB2 sounded appreciably better especially on redbook CD.

Next new sonic formats were out, DPL2, CS2, DTS Neo. And with multi-channel SACD and DVD-Audio, I wanted a surround processor which would do this without compromising audio quality. Not only did my Theta CB2 not have multi-channel analog inputs, but its two channel analog input, although excellent by industry standards, just didn't satisfy me. And functionally the CB2 still had too often operating quirks. Was I going to have to sell the CB2 at a big loss and they buy a new surround processor? I waited, waited, waited/patience/patience/patience, longer/longer/longer as Theta promised that they were providing all of this and at a really reasonable upgrade price - and Theta came through with the CB3 with Six Shooter.

Now with HD DVD yes I would like HDMI for multi-channel audio. Theta promises they are providing it at reasonable cost - in time. Waiting/waiting/waiting and longer/longer/longer. What else is new? Just like before. And I have confidence Theta will complete this - slow but surely - at reasonable cost. Meanwhile, thanks to my Six Shooter, my HD DVD using the player's multi-channel analog outs sound tremendous, and may only get better once Theta does the HDMI thing.

If as Jeff says I am "married" to my Theta, its because despite setbacks and delays, Theta has still earned my trust audiowise/sonics, cost and features. And of course upgradeability and new features. Isn't that what its about??? Like a long marriage, trust and devotion have to be worked at and earned, and Theta has done that despite delays and setbacks along the way.

Regarding whether I should sell my CB3 and Six Shooter now and say move to the Halcro (supposedly about to offer multi-channel PCM via HDMI) or the Lexicon MC-12 with multi-channel HDMI: In my own subjective way, I don't feel that either of those processors will offer me the sonics and flexibility that I like in my system AND given the reasonable monetary upgrade path Theta has provided all these years it wouldn't be worth it financially either. You've heard both Bulldogger and me rave about the Six Shooter and it deserves to be raved about, including using it for HD DVD multi-channel analog audio.

But the bottom line is each of us makes our own choices. Its our system. Our money. But you non-Theta folks just don't and probably will never get it.
Its like why am I still married for now 25+ years to someone single forever or married three times already. Not like my marriage has been easy. Patience and understanding doesn't always give you quite as much pleasure at times along the way but in the end may reward you much more - in marriage, and with your surround processor company. It has for me.

Thats why Lex luver Michael "THE DOG" Grant always dogs me.Wrong. The ONLY reason I "DOG" you is your hypocrisy. When you get tired of dishing it out, you whine about why people are so mean to you, lay down some ground rules, and proceed to break them. That is IT. I could give a rat's ass what your audio preferences are.

I sold my Lex, BTW. I'm gonna start fresh in a year when the house is done. And all options are open.

Wrong. The ONLY reason I "DOG" you is your hypocrisy. When you get tired of dishing it out, you whine about why people are so mean to you, lay down some ground rules, and proceed to break them. That is IT. I could give a rat's ass what your audio preferences are.

I sold my Lex, BTW. I'm gonna start fresh in a year when the house is done. And all options are open.

Do you look in the mirror when you get up in the morning. If so, and if you are honest with yourself, you will find the "hypocrite" looking back at you. Its ok for you to take off on someone else, but you sure don't like it when they strike back.

Tell you what Michael. You sold your Lex, and you will be starting over with your surround processor. Good for you. Why don't you and I start over. Quit dogging me and criticizing me personally. Quit telling me what I'm saying. If you think I'm saying something that you feel perhaps needs correction, why don't you first ask me for clarification, rather than jump all over me? Would you like to start over with me? Or would you like to continue you "dog" me, I "dog" you??? I thought my last post was quite reasonable as to why I have continued to get the latest Theta surround processor through the upgrade process - but no matter what I post,
you continue to strike. Is the only thing I can do to get you to quit going after me personally for me to quit posting? Or are you interested in trying to get along?

Do you look in the mirror when you get up in the morning. If so, and if you are honest with yourself, you will find the "hypocrite" looking back at you. Its ok for you to take off on someone else, but you sure don't like it when they strike back.You apparently don't know the meaning of the word "hypocrisy". I give as good as I get, Steve. What pisses me off is when you prance around like a wounded little girl---and then turn right around and start back in again.

Here's what it will take for me to quit dogging you: quit with your posturing, fake rule-making, pretend moderation. Feel free to post very informative posts like your last one, AND feel free to rip people. I won't single you out if you take it as good as you give it.

Actually, the Meridian and Lexicon has significant hardware AND software upgrades...like the Halcro.

You apparently don't know the meaning of the word "hypocrisy". I give as good as I get, Steve. What pisses me off is when you prance around like a wounded little girl---and then turn right around and start back in again.

Here's what it will take for me to quit dogging you: quit with your posturing, fake rule-making, pretend moderation. Feel free to post very informative posts like your last one, AND feel free to rip people. I won't single you out if you take it as good as you give it.

1. Please define "posturing"?

2. As to fake rule-making, I had good intentions in that thread. I wanted to try for folks to post why they like their surround processor without criticizing others. So what happens. You and another few quickly degenerated it and criticized me.
So it was an experiment that didn't work and I gave up.

3. As to feel free to rip people, why? I only rip back.

4. Why should I take it as good as I give it? Do you take it as good as you give it? I don't think so.

Michael, the problem with your approach is that you pretend its objective, but its subjective. You want me to post in the manner you like to post or interpret. Aren't you creating pseudo forum rules with all this?

Actually, the Meridian and Lexicon has significant hardware AND software upgrades...like the Halcro.

Jeff, I'm not saying they didn't. Of course they did, that's why you bought them.
I was just pointing out that my reasons for staying the Theta course are to some extent similar to yours for changing to new company's surround processors.
We both have our own sound reasons for what we've done.

Michael, the problem with your approach is that you pretend its objective, but its subjective. You want me to post in the manner you like to post or interpret. Aren't you creating pseudo forum rules with all this?You asked me what it would take for me to quit dogging you, and I told you. It's not a rule. You're free to continue as you always have, and so will I!As to fake rule-making, I had good intentions in that thread. I imagine you did, but those intentions would have been more clear if you had actually followed your own rules...

[QUOTE=Michael Grant]You asked me what it would take for me to quit dogging you, and I told you. It's not a rule. You're free to continue as you always have, and so will I!QUOTE]

Michael, apparently you like the name I gave you, Michael "The Dog" Grant.
COOL. You even admit that you "dog" me. I have my own personal forum
shadowdog to pester me into perpetuity. Lucky me!!!@@@

You guys could take this to PM and spare the rest of us...

NO worries, I'm done! Happy 4th everyone.
Michael "Dog" Grant

And to think for the last couple of years I've been referring to you as "the good Doc Grant". I stand corrected. You're now "the good Dog Grant"! ;)

woof

What up doc, what up dog, it's all the same ;)

This dog not only woofs, but he has a very sharp tongue. Who says that only words can't hurt you? HAAAA!!!

I think Michael "The Dog" Grant is the intelligent (he is that, though he doesn't always act that) reincarnation of an All Star Wrestler.

Quit dogging me with personal attacks.It's your statements, not you personally, being held up to scrutiny. As for personal attacks, the only person in this thread resorting to name-calling is you. This is the same pattern others have pointed out, where you do the exact opposite of what you preach.

Sanjay

I see new posts in this thread so I check it out thinking someone has posted more interesting info on the Halco, and it is just more of the Jerry Springer show.

Do the people who are fighting here even own a Halcro or are the Theta/Lexicon/Whatever threads slow???

Anyway, I put the top mudslingers on IGNORE, and the thread is now half the size and only ~2% of the useful info is gone. :eek:

It's your statements, not you personally, being held up to scrutiny. As for personal attacks, the only person in this thread resorting to name-calling is you. This is the same pattern others have pointed out, where you do the exact opposite of what you preach.

Sanjay

Others - you mean Michael "THE DOG" Grant. Other Lex Luvers, Theta Haters?
Your statement above is a personal attack, not one discussing information or opinion re audio video. Sanjay "THE HYPOCRITE" Durani.

I see new posts in this thread so I check it out thinking someone has posted more interesting info on the Halco, and it is just more of the Jerry Springer show.

Do the people who are fighting here even own a Halcro or are the Theta/Lexicon/Whatever threads slow???

Anyway, I put the top mudslingers on IGNORE, and the thread is now half the size and only ~2% of the useful info is gone. :eek:

This same thing happens in every Theta thread pretty much. Welcome to "Surround Processor Wars".

Ah. Leave the thread for 24 hours and Steve proves my point even more. It was a good day.
Woof.

Ah. Leave the thread for 24 hours and Steve proves my point even more. It was a good day.
Woof.

OK OK It was a good day!!!!! Not every day is as good. BARK!! :D

Yo Steve!!

Your statement above is a personal attackNo. My post clarifies the difference between addressing the statements you post vs attacking you personally. I simply stated facts, without resorting to any name calling (as you consistenly do).

Sanjay

Steve, I don't think anyone "hates" Theta. I think everyone just have different ideas of how things should work when it comes to the design, upgrades, feature sets, policies, etc, when buying a $5K+ processor with some hope of upgradeability and choose accordingly. I think you take the Theta thing too personally and then try to make it personal. A lot of people really get wrapped up in the gear and brands when this much money is at stake. I never really read much of these "surround processor wars" because I think most people are crazy to spend more than $2K-$3K (just like I think it's crazy to buy a top end computer), as it's all going to be obsolete at some point, but that's the impression I get. I really think you should let it go, if you can. If not, well, every popular movie has a sequel.

No. My post clarifies the difference between addressing the statements you post vs attacking you personally. I simply stated facts, without resorting to any name calling (as you consistenly do).

Sanjay

State facts by discussing audio and video and not me. You like to personally attack, but you don't like getting it back, do you?

Steve, I don't think anyone "hates" Theta. I think everyone just have different ideas of how things should work when it comes to the design, upgrades, feature sets, policies, etc, when buying a $5K+ processor with some hope of upgradeability and choose accordingly. I think you take the Theta thing too personally and then try to make it personal. A lot of people really get wrapped up in the gear and brands when this much money is at stake. I never really read much of these "surround processor wars" because I think most people are crazy to spend more than $2K-$3K (just like I think it's crazy to buy a top end computer), as it's all going to be obsolete at some point, but that's the impression I get. I really think you should let it go, if you can. If not, well, every popular movie has a sequel.

Why don't they let it go?

But OK, I am taking a 48 hour break from this thread (at minimum). HA!

Cool, but since it's a Halcro thread, wouldn't it make sense to let it go entirely? That way the Halcro guys can get back to talking about Halcro. We'll start another Theta SSP thread, I promise ;)

Besides, I have found that piling on is the primary sport on this forum, so the best way to do it is sneak out from under the pile while no one is looking :)

Actually John, I am beginning to hate Theta. :eek:

Too many Theta users have a thier screws loose. Look at this Halcro thread. Why does it have more Theta posts than Halcro posts. They're lunitics, fanatics I tell you. I would never buy a Theta for fear I would become one of these people. I would have to cut my own throat...

For the record, I have nothing against the gear, just the fact that some of its users think it is thier god given right to trash every Prepro thread even when it has nothing to do with Theta gear.

Steve, I don't think anyone "hates" Theta.

Getting back to Halcro...

This is the week that HDMI Audio upgrades are supposed to start. Has anyone mailed thier gear in for this yet?

Regards,
Darrell

Darrell, is this a true 1.3 upgrade? I'm assuming that the upgrade parts are coming from Vinci Labs (but just an assumption) which may mean the NHT Controller will be next.

John,

No, this is not an upgrade to HDMI 1.3. I think Halcro is looking at Q1 2008 for that. This does allow LPCM over all channels via HDMI so DVD-A, TruHD, etc. can be passed via HDMI an then have the Halcro perform bass management, DAC, and other processing if desired.

For now, this is all I need as there are no HDMI 1.3 devices. This would help my HD-DVD Audio, and DVD-A.

But, if the HDMI Audio upgrade is indeed $1399, I will have to think about it. I may be better off modding my Denon 3930. The DVD-A, SACD, and DVD Video would all see improvement.

Trade-offs, Trade-offs...

Regards,
Darrell

Ah, well darn. This whole 1.3 thing is just annoying anyway, but it would be nice just to get MC audio going. It's hard to believe we took such a drastic reduction in sound quality just to get 5.1 audio on a DVD.

State facts by discussing audio and video and not me.YOU brought it up in this thread by asking why Lex owners don't attack Jeff for buying a Halcro. You didn't like the answer, so now you're telling everyone to stick to discussing audio/video; something you yourself cannot do. Why don't you take your own advice?

Sanjay

Sanjay, you too! Holy cow, as much as Steve creates controversy (as do I oftentimes), it's just as bad when people won't stop arguing with him. Everyone to your corners!

woof

OMG! I came here to learn about the Halcro pre/pro's and it's being to feel like I am smack back in the middle of the Bronx on a Friday night! Lots of bickering.....

Djoel

point of order

Wikipedia,
A point of order may be raised if the rules appear to have been broken. This may interrupt a speaker during debate...

Thank you

Fortunately, there will be a lot of Halcro news in the next week or two..

Jeff,

Is thre any Halcro news coming aside from the HDMI Audio upgrade?

Darrell

Jeff---this may have been addressed, in which case I apologize for missing it, but how exactly are you controlling the Halcro?

Rs-232

I know there is new software for HDMI stability.

I have emailed Halcro about the upgrade and still nothing. I was told they would begin this week at the latest. I would like this to get going as my Halcro's IR remote sensor does not work and came that way brand new. They are going to be fixing the IR sensors when we send these in according to Gary at Halcro because of the range and a few outages as well as a snew software update (Which is needed for HDMI, LPCM, & IR items.). As far as Theta folks, I think the Theta Casablanca is a great (expensive) pre/pro. One of my close frinds has a Casablana III and the unit sounds incredible. I think the Halcro has more bells and whistles and more bang for the buck, but there is no denying the Theta gear sounds sweet. I know they have a different approach to their equipment and I think it benifits them and their customers. I have read about the new Virtu and Valis and are quite interested. As for now, my D2 remains the main pre/pro and the Halcro has gone to the loft because of the HDMI and IR remote issues. Also, does anyone know where we can get more info on the Oplus Scaler? Intel has almost no info. I know the Gennum is far better but I am curious as to the features it really has. I am wondering if they are going to add software to allow any tweaking or improvements for the scaler. I hope there is no more fighting here...:)

woof

Good dog! :)

I thnk you boys should be a CEDIA event.

Quit hiding behind your keyboards across country and put some gloves on!

Or just go UFC style...

If Steve and I were at CEDIA, I'd buy him a beer and shake his hand. I'd even let him call me dog (though not after 10PM). Stuff happens on an online forum that would really never happen in person.

Anyone giving odds??

We need a promoter to sponsor this.

The first batch of cards are on their way. Got caught up in all the security crap in England. Should hit USA in the next couple of days. Soon; real soon

The first batch of cards are on their way. Got caught up in all the security crap in England. Should hit USA in the next couple of days. Soon; real soon

Good news, I'll be shipping my unit to Halcro the minute the upgrade is officially available.

Personally, Halcro can do whatever they want. It is there company.

The problem is I like the sound of my unit better than anything else I have owned or heard. So, I am pussy whipped.

Things are coming soon but not soon enough.

I gotta admit that I too am whipped by my Halcro as well.

When I finally got my amp back I was able to revert back to my 7.1 system from 5.1 and have to admit that PL IIx really kills PLII for music. With the 5.1 set-up I prefered Natural or Neo-6 but with a 7.1 channel system PL IIx really sounds GOOD! Now Natural and Neo-6 sound flat in comparison.

I have had my Halcro for awhile now and I am usually itching to get the next best thing but I have to admit to being very satisfied. I think we all are itching to get the MLPCM upgrade as we are hoping to extend our pleasure with this phenominal pre-pro. I know I can't wait!!!!!

With my upgraditus I cannot say for sure that I won't change out to another pre in the future but right now the only pre that makes me say hmmmmm is the Mark Levinson No 40. At 30K + I don't thing that will happen anytime soon if at all.

Halcro, you are a dirty nasty vixen and I can't get enough......... Whipped!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

I hope Halcro gets their HDMI 1.3 soon. This way there is more pressure for other manufacturers to get cracking to release their HDMI 1.3 version of products.

No longer can the excuse be made that HDMI 1.3 chips are not available. We could use Halcro as a poster child.

Jim,

Let the get the HDMI audio upgrade out first. Don't distract these guys. :eek:

Right now, what will the HDMI 1.3 do for us, that the HDMI Audio upgrade won't?

Regards,
Darrell

I hope Halcro gets their HDMI 1.3 soon. This way there is more pressure for other manufacturers to get cracking to release their HDMI 1.3 version of products.

No longer can the excuse be made that HDMI 1.3 chips are not available. We could use Halcro as a poster child.

By all accounts (from Halcro), this is not likely this year.

HDMI 1.3 doesn't excite me at all. LPCM does. The fact that it is so close is killing me.

I can't wait to crank my system to reference level and let the bombs explode all over me in all their lossless glory via the sweet Halcro DACs. (e.g. Pearl Harbor BD - super high bit rate- and Letters from Iwo Jima BD).

For those who haven't seen Iwo Jima, it has some of the best surround pans and realistic back and forth fans of any movie I have seen this year. Moreover, a fantastic bass track. As good as it was, I was listening to run of the mill DD.

From what I have heard we should not expect HDMI 1.3 until next year on high end pre-pro's. When I spoke with Anthem the tech told me that they had no plans as it does not really add much to justify the cost.

I am only concerned with the MLPCM upgrade and am not worried about 1.3 at this time.

I am concerned about shipping the SSP back to Halcro in the original carton.

I had one of the first Halcro SSP100s in the US. As discussed in older posts, the shipping carton was poorly designed with very little protective padding. It was fine when strapped to a pallet but no good for FedEx, UPS, or others. I had to have 3 units shipped to me until I got one that functioned properly.

Does anyone know if Halrco is going to send those who purchase the upgrade improved shipping cartons as part of the total cost?

Perhaps my carton is a newer one, but it came double boxed...I'd feel fine shipping it in it. You may want to go to UPS store and have them double box it with peanuts as in between boxes..

Is it time to ship yet?

Mine also came double boxed with a styroform shell holding the unit and a very thin layer of bubble wrap between the outer and inner carton.

Many early customers experienced invisible internal shipping damage and when one of the senior Halcro engineers visited my house he agreed the carton was inadequate. Remember, four units strapped together on a pallet are handled a lot differently than a single unit tossed into the back of a FedEx truck.

Perhaps they redesigned the unit so it's more rugged today but a double box with a few mms of bubble wrap seems inadequate for a $10K electronic device.

Don't get me wrong, Halcro ws fantastic and kept shipping new units until we found one that worked but that was 18 months ago. My current unit is now "used" and I don't want to repeat that experience.

Halco will send out a call tag for pick up. They will probably use FED EX. The current units ship like Blands.

It might be a good idea to ask for a new shipping carton for the return ride; if someone has the older shipping box.

Is it time to ship yet?


I heard the new HDMI Audio cards accidently got re-routed to Brazil and it will take 4 weeks to get them back through U.S. customs.




OK, not really, I just wanted to liven up the thread today with a little heart-skipping humor... :D

I heard the new HDMI Audio cards accidently got re-routed to Brazil and it will take 4 weeks to get them back through U.S. customs.




OK, not really, I just wanted to liven up the thread today with a little heart-skipping humor... :D

That's a hanging offence around here my friend. :D j/k

Now he's jinxed the whole shipment .

Hang em by his interconnects

So how do you Halcro owners feel about the $1395 cost for this HDMI 1.1 or is it 1.2 upgrade?

IOW is it a fair price to you?

How many inputs are gained with this upgrade?

Allen,

The Halcros already have HDMI, so no inputs are gained. In the current setup you can run CD, DD, and DTS multi-channel through the HDMI. You can also run two channels of LPCM via HDMI. What this upgrade gets you is Multi-Channel LPCM.

Some people have hinted at other goodies, but most sounded like fixes, instead of enhancements to me. We will have to wait for the release to know I guess.

Personally, I think the price is high for this upgrade. Since most of use can't pass SACD via HDMI, the mostly helps with DVD-Audio, HD-DVD, and Blu-Ray. Each owner will have to figure out if passing those formats digitally will be worth the $1399.

I could throw the same $1399 into my DVD player and get it modded. That would help DVD-Audio, SACD, CD, and video. Decisions, Decisions...

Darrell

So how do you Halcro owners feel about the $1395 cost for this HDMI 1.1 or is it 1.2 upgrade?

IOW is it a fair price to you?

How many inputs are gained with this upgrade?

No additional inputs (it has 4 HDMI inputs). Now it can accept TRUE HD, DTS MA and uncompressed LPCM multichannel tracks. A huge upgrade for sound on HD DVD and Blu Ray.


This is a great deal as those of us in the hobby who hate seeing a new, wanted technology we are barred from because of the choices we made on equipment. At $1395, we get far more than the far more expensive 6 shooter Theta is pushing for multichannel. The Halcro upgrade allows us to use the fantastic Halcro DACs for multichannel PCM while the more expensive 6 shooter is designed to bypass Theta's great DACs and offers no HDMI!!???? You tell me if it is a good deal....;)


It beats buying a new processor. If you add up MSRP costs of the Halcro plus upgrade, you'll be at $11,399. Expenisive but relative to the far more expensive Meridan and THeta pieces, which don't even have HDMi, it is still a bargain.

I look at this as a reasonably priced 1-2 year patch before the new HDMI 1.3 processors hit the scene. Those are a ways down the road but Hi Def audio tracks (e.g. TRUE HD, DTS MA and UNcompressed PCM tracks are here on all Blu Ray and HD DVD discs). So, if you want the cutting edge audio and you don't want to fart around with the crappy analog outs and DACs in these players and lose all your digital post processing, HDMI is the only way to go. If I owned a Theta or a Meridian, I'd be quite pissed that they weren't giving me the hi def audio that their copetition was giving their customers (e.g. Lexicon and Halcro). Moreover, you can buy a $400 receiver these days with this capability.

So, it is a bit pricey on the surface, but added to the lower cost of the world class Halcro, the price is fine. The Halcro sounds as good or better than any other high end processor and, unlike any of them will pass 1080P over HDMI and play all Hi Def BD / HD DVD audio sound tracks. Halcro has come through with what any high end home theater enthususiast wants: Cutting edge audio, the latest connections (HDMI) and wonderful sound.

Actually selling your Lexicon and taking a loss on that, then buying the Halcro, and then upgrading it seems like poor choices. 12k minus 3.5 K is 8.5 K that you lost with the Lexicon. Then another 10K for the Halcro plus 1.4k for the upgrade is almost 20K that you have spent to get where you are.

Bulldogger,

Let me tell you what I really spent. $4.8K on th Lex (unbalanced - $9K retail), Sold for 4.4K. upgraded to balanced ($1K). Just bought it right intially. So..loss of $1600. Paid, $7500 for Halcro but will get a deal on the upgrade. So, I am well under it's MSRP for everything (including loss of $1600 on Lex), am current with technology and have world class sound.

Now if I told you what I paid for my Qualia new, one of the first the US, you'd really choke....and I can thank AVS for that!

There is usually a way to buy right. Now my soon to be Radiance and ISCO lens...no chance on buying right these....

Now with the price of your Theta, 6 shooters (2), no HDMI and no way to use your Extreme DACs for TRUE HD / DTS MA / Uncompressed LPCM, and a boat laod of cash to get there....we might want to investigate your habits...:D


But the cost is a spearate issue. Without having the latest in technology, the money is irrelevent. I am happy to 'lose' money on equipment that makes my movie experience first rate. I certainly wouldn't sit out the new HD formats to as to save some money..

Bland -

Do you have the SSP80 or SSP 100?

100...

thebland pwn3d the 'Dogger!

Bulldogger,

Let me tell you what I really spent. $4.8K on th Lex (unbalanced - $9K retail), Sold for 4.4K. upgraded to balanced ($1K). Just bought it right intially. So..loss of $1600. Paid, $7500 for Halcro but will get a deal on the upgrade. So, I am well under it's MSRP for everything (including loss of $1600 on Lex), am current with technology and have world class sound.

Now if I told you what I paid for my Qualia new, one of the first the US, you'd really choke....and I can thank AVS for that!

There is usually a way to buy right. Now my soon to be Radiance and ISCO lens...no chance on buying right these....

Now with the price of your Theta, 6 shooters (2), no HDMI and no way to use your Extreme DACs for TRUE HD / DTS MA / Uncompressed LPCM, and a boat laod of cash to get there....we might want to investigate your habits...:D


But the cost is a spearate issue. Without having the latest in technology, the money is irrelevent. I am happy to 'lose' money on equipment that makes my movie experience first rate. I certainly wouldn't sit out the new HD formats to as to save some money..
Actually I paid a lot less as well. I discussed retail prices because I thought that was AVS policy? 7400.00 for the CBIII that I have. Most will not need two Six Shooters and can just get the HDMI 1.3 upgrade from Theta. NEW CBIII with Premium dacs can be purchased for 8K, street price, or maybe a little less if you know where to look. As far as the Six shooter, many people will not need it with HDMI 1.3. For the guys who do want a great analog pre-amps you will find that the several hundred dollar of parts, FET switches and metal film resistors that Theta uses in the Six Shooter for just volume control superior to the $1.50 per channel Op amps that some use ;). In fact you are really going to have to look at pre-amps that cost a lot more to start seeing that kind of parts quality.

No additional inputs (it has 4 HDMI inputs). Now it can accept TRUE HD, DTS MA and uncompressed LPCM multichannel tracks. A huge upgrade for sound on HD DVD and Blu Ray.


This is a great deal as those of us in the hobby who hate seeing a new, wanted technology we are barred from because of the choices we made on equipment. At $1395, we get far more than the far more expensive 6 shooter Theta is pushing for multichannel. The Halcro upgrade allows us to use the fantastic Halcro DACs for multichannel PCM while the more expensive 6 shooter is designed to bypass Theta's great DACs and offers no HDMI!!???? You tell me if it is a good deal....;)


It beats buying a new processor. If you add up MSRP costs of the Halcro plus upgrade, you'll be at $11,399. Expenisive but relative to the far more expensive Meridan and THeta pieces, which don't even have HDMi, it is still a bargain.

I look at this as a reasonably priced 1-2 year patch before the new HDMI 1.3 processors hit the scene. Those are a ways down the road but Hi Def audio tracks (e.g. TRUE HD, DTS MA and UNcompressed PCM tracks are here on all Blu Ray and HD DVD discs). So, if you want the cutting edge audio and you don't want to fart around with the crappy analog outs and DACs in these players and lose all your digital post processing, HDMI is the only way to go. If I owned a Theta or a Meridian, I'd be quite pissed that they weren't giving me the hi def audio that their copetition was giving their customers (e.g. Lexicon and Halcro). Moreover, you can buy a $400 receiver these days with this capability.

So, it is a bit pricey on the surface, but added to the lower cost of the world class Halcro, the price is fine. The Halcro sounds as good or better than any other high end processor and, unlike any of them will pass 1080P over HDMI and play all Hi Def BD / HD DVD audio sound tracks. Halcro has come through with what any high end home theater enthususiast wants: Cutting edge audio, the latest connections (HDMI) and wonderful sound.

There goes Jeff putting down why he didn't go Theta. another reason is that no surround processor sounds much better than another in his heavily damped, unmusical system. Jeff admitted in this thread that his Halcro doesn't sound much better than the Lex he had previously. And he's stated on the forum that when he did the CB2 (not CB3 demo) that it didn't sound better than his Lex. What he didn't tell you was he offered to trade his wife's PR services for a free CB2 and was denied - he is a real bargainer, isn't he? He did this more or less on the forum and he admitted it here. If he got the right "price" he would have gone CB2 and wouldn't be so free with his mouth re Theta.

Jeff told you supposedly (leaving out some crucial stuff, discussed above) why he didn't go Theta and why he doesn't like Theta. Here's why I am a Theta luver:


I owned a Denon preamp/processor - - - I changed.

I owned a Citation 7.0 surround processor. Citation promised a reasonable price upgrade for the new Dolby Digital and DTS formats - they didn't provide it. I changed.

I owned a Theta Casablanca 1 surround processor, with the new DD and DTS formats.

Next when offered I added a Circle Surround 1 card - man did that help with Dolby Digital 2.0 stuff and I liked it for music CDs, too.

Next I changed to a new and better surround processor, better sounding.
The new Theta CB2, which was upgraded from my Theta CB1. Instead of paying for a new surround processor and selling my old one at a big loss, I did the upgrade for a very reasonable price. Felt like getting a brand new processor and ditching the old one, which wasn't nearly as good sonically or functionally.

Next I upgraded from Superior to Extreme DACs, so my Theta CB2 sounded appreciably better especially on redbook CD.

Next new sonic formats were out, DPL2, CS2, DTS Neo. And with multi-channel SACD and DVD-Audio, I wanted a surround processor which would do this without compromising audio quality. Not only did my Theta CB2 not have multi-channel analog inputs, but its two channel analog input, although excellent by industry standards, just didn't satisfy me. And functionally the CB2 still had too often operating quirks. Was I going to have to sell the CB2 at a big loss and they buy a new surround processor? I waited, waited, waited/patience/patience/patience, longer/longer/longer as Theta promised that they were providing all of this and at a really reasonable upgrade price - and Theta came through with the CB3 with Six Shooter.

Now with HD DVD yes I would like HDMI for multi-channel audio. Theta promises they are providing it at reasonable cost - in time. Waiting/waiting/waiting and longer/longer/longer. What else is new? Just like before. And I have confidence Theta will complete this - slow but surely - at reasonable cost. Meanwhile, thanks to my Six Shooter, my HD DVD using the player's multi-channel analog outs sound tremendous, and may only get better once Theta does the HDMI thing.

If as Jeff says I am "married" to my Theta, its because despite setbacks and delays, Theta has still earned my trust audiowise/sonics, cost and features. And of course upgradeability and new features. Isn't that what its about??? Like a long marriage, trust and devotion have to be worked at and earned, and Theta has done that despite delays and setbacks along the way.

Regarding whether I should sell my CB3 and Six Shooter now and say move to the Halcro (supposedly about to offer multi-channel PCM via HDMI) or the Lexicon MC-12 with multi-channel HDMI: In my own subjective way, I don't feel that either of those processors will offer me the sonics and flexibility that I like in my system AND given the reasonable monetary upgrade path Theta has provided all these years it wouldn't be worth it financially either. You've heard both Bulldogger and me rave about the Six Shooter and it deserves to be raved about, including using it for HD DVD multi-channel analog audio.

But the bottom line is each of us makes our own choices. Its our system. Our money. But you non-Theta folks just don't and probably will never get it.
Its like why am I still married for now 25+ years to someone single forever or married three times already. Not like my marriage has been easy. Patience and understanding doesn't always give you quite as much pleasure at times along the way but in the end may reward you much more - in marriage, and with your surround processor company. It has for me.

At $1395, we get far more than the far more expensive 6 shooter Theta is pushing for multichannel. The Halcro upgrade allows us to use the fantastic Halcro DACs for multichannel PCM while the more expensive 6 shooter is designed to bypass Theta's great DACs and offers no HDMI!!???? You tell me if it is a good deal....;)

Jeff,

It's a sad day when you have to try to put down another manufacturer's piece to make you feel good about your own.

I guarantee the Halcro is NOT the best audio device in the world. Just yours. I also guarantee that becuase you may be the first, you won't be the best. As newer chips become available, I doubt there will be another $1400 upgrade just to get the newer chip.

I used to find your comments amusing. Now you come across as a whiny brat (nana nana boo boo... I got HDMI before you do).

_________________________
Kool-Aid of the Week: Pompous Purple. Michigan 2007. Fruity & Arrogant. Old but pretentious..$Priceless


Thread unsubscribed.

Jim, I am here for fun. Sorry you don't appreciate it. I am sure Halcro is not the best either. I may have a new processor in a couple years. As you rightly pointed out, chips change. You can't hang onto the same piece forever. I have had my Qualia for 3 years. It was the best for a year or two...Now there are many that beat it. I'm still happy with it and when digital can fade to black, it's out of my system..Who knows? If you have followed my posts, I change equipment rather regularly. THe mine is better than yours is only for Steve's pleasure. I wouldn't read too far into it. Look again, I am sure you will still find my comments more amusing than whiney (I have nothing to whine about). This is not a serious place in the whole scheme of things, so take a deep breath and read again. It's all about fun. This is a Halcro thread...If you don't like it there are other threads to crap on.

But then again, looking at your sig, I do wonder about your level of maturity and sophistication..

Sorry guys. I guess I did jinx it. Another week with no word about the HDMI Audio upgrade....


I heard the new HDMI Audio cards accidently got re-routed to Brazil and it will take 4 weeks to get them back through U.S. customs.

OK, not really, I just wanted to liven up the thread today with a little heart-skipping humor... :D

Great! Another 2 or 3 weeks of the Steven and Jeff show while we wait ;)

NO SOUP FOR YOU!

Great! Another 2 or 3 weeks of the Steven and Jeff show while we wait ;)

You mean the Jeff show with Steve dogged by Michael "THE DOG" Grant!!!!
Here I thought this thread was dead and I wan't postin' no more!!!@@@

AND NO SOUP FOR YOU TOO!

That was a lot of doggin' yesterday...Now I just want my LPCM!!!

That was a lot of doggin' yesterday...Now I just want my LPCM!!!

How long has it been since you bought the Halcro, were told it would have LPCM at that time, and you're still waitin'???

As I stated before, Halcro is new in the surround processor arena. They've been overoptimistic all along re time frame for the LPCM upgrade. But they are gettin' closer (as time is going by). Will it be one week, one month, one year - that is the question.

I must admit when it comes to LPCM over HDMI, of the surround processor companies, Lexicon is KING. Eventually they will be met, even dethroned, but when???

_________________________
Kool-Aid of the Week: Pompous Purple. Michigan 2007. Fruity & Arrogant. Old but pretentious..

LOL, sorry Bland but that is hilarious. :D

Is anyone using Digital Outs from a Transport, into the Halcro (no External DAC)?

If so how does it sound?

Do you use any sort of jitter reduction or reclocking device in between?

Thanks,
Darrell

Re the SSP-80, my understanding is that there is a sizable upgrade available for the unit. Have you shipped units that already have the new board/software, and how would I know? Serial # sequence?

Is there a complete update coming that will replace the 80/100 in the next couple months, or will you just operate like Theta and just perpetually upgrade the existing platform?

The Ethernet input, do you make constant software updates via the Ethernet connection? (does it need to be continually connected to the internet?)

Then I REALLY PUSH IT!
Re the MC-50. Is it possible to get an MC-50 but in an MC-70 case. I ask as I would like to separate the binding posts for greater clearance with my speaker cables. Would one be able to swap cases and just leave the two extra lights unconnected?

Thank you

I think the "upgrade" is the same upgrade that is about to be offered to all owners of the SSP80 & SSP100 and that the cost differential ($1,395?) is the same.

It is my understanding that the upgrade path was chosen instead of introducing a new model.

LOL, sorry Bland but that is hilarious. :D

I laughed. I have no idea who that poster is..It was like a stealth bomber...but I did learn he needs some more wine in his life..

I chuckled too Jeff

Folks thanks for the Halcro HDMI info.

Thebland

You posted that when and IF the Halcro multi channel HDMI upgrade happens it will not only do LPCM but also Dolby True HD and DTS-MA.

Correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is the the latter two codex are compressed and can only be sent over HDMI 1.3 and then are decoded internally in the prepro.

I understand that the Halcro is NOT HDMI 1.3 but rather an earlier HDMI version. Thus the Halcro can not decode Dolby True HD or DTS-MA. All you gain with the Halcro HDMI multi channel upgrade is the ability to D to A the LPCM multi channel bit stream ( which is fine ) but it will not do the compressed lossless formats internally.


Finally I would like to point out that while the BD and HD DVD decoding of Dolby True HD and DTS-MA using their internal decoders and then passing them out in the form of LPCM into the Halcro should be better than the these players internally decoding these formats and then D to A out to the Theta 6 Shooter, it will be even better to send the digital and fully compressed stream into the perpro and then in there decode and process as needed. These High end prepros will do a better job IMO than the far cheaper BD and HD DVD players.

For you Thebland I think you must be going crazy as it seems to me that you are the sort of person who MUST be the first to own anything so as to brag about this to any and all.

So when you sold your "Gods gift to mankind" Lexicon and bought the (interestingly) better Halcro only to find out that you did not do your homework and this better Halcro is in fact missing the ONLY feature you really care about IE LPCM multi channel D to A and now you are forced to wait.

I find it sadly amusing that you out of one side of your mouth belittle the Theta owners for not having the LPCM ability and out of the other side of your mouth extol the Halcros' superiority which is exactly the same situation that you hate about Theta IE having to wait for an upgrade.

Lets see what is the name for someone like that..........

OH YA I remember a hypocrite

I will commend you on one thing though, you sure are brand loyal. As long as it is the brand you own today. Look out though for tomorrow when it is KICKED TO THE CURB and another paramour is introduced to the equipment rack. :)

Lets see there is a term for someone like that......

OH YA Fickle.

You posted that when and IF the Halcro multi channel HDMI upgrade happens it will not only do LPCM but also Dolby True HD and DTS-MA.He did? I don't remember him doing that, at least not lately. My understanding was that the Halco upgrade will be able to take advantage of Dolby True HD and DTS-MA tracks that are decoded in the player.It will be even better to send the digital and fully compressed stream into the perpro and then in there decode and process as needed. These High end prepros will do a better job IMO than the far cheaper BD and HD DVD players.Sorry, I can't agree. There is only one proper way to decode a lossless track. If the player does it properly, a processor can't do any better.

That's not to say that a player will do it properly---though I think it is far more likely that they will, due to the fact that these modern codecs are standardized on their decoders, not their encoders. But it does mean that you can do a little shopping around and find one that does, and then you're done---no matter how many processors you go through in the future.

I think that one reason you might think this way is that you're confusing the decoding process with other things that might alter sound quality, like jitter control. But confused you are.

So why don't you hop off your high horse. Halcro's HDMI 1.2 upgrade is more than sufficient to get the most out of these high-end soundtracks. As far as audio is concerned HDMI 1.3 is nothing but an unnecessary delay. If Theta gets a HDMI 1.2 solution out the door by the time I'm picking my equipment next year they will earn a spot on my short list, too. But if they're still wringing their hands waiting for HDMI 1.3 chips I'll have to shop elsewhere.

Oh look, the non-Halcro owners are back in the Halcro thread.

All the discussions about Halcro gear has stopped, and the monkeys are flinging poop at each other. How nice...

Well, you'll have to put up with us non-owners. Some of us, after all, are potential owners. :)

Michael

No confusion on my part. It was in fact my point. That is that there are a lot of things that can be done less than optimally and when added together yield a less than stellar result. Hoping for and ideal world situation is a setup for disappointment in my experience.

Each one must look at their own time line and needs/wants. As of today the Halcro is just like the Theta an non event. Their multichannel HDMI is nowhere to be seen just hoped for. as of today your list has but one prepro choice the Lexicon. Although I hear there are lots of receivers out there and they cost a lot less. Hey it all ones and zeros so they all sound the same, right?

Lastly while some such as yourself see me on my high horse this is of little consequence to me as others here are keen to point out when folks talk trash. I see it as just me doing the same. One mans trash is another's treasure. it's all about how we perceive things. Yes?

No confusion on my part. It was in fact my point. That is that there are a lot of things that can be done less than optimally and when added together yield a less than stellar result. Hoping for and ideal world situation is a setup for disappointment in my experience.I don't disagree, but you didn't state it this way above. You said that doing the decoding in the source device is inferior to doing it in the processor. Well, there is no reason to expect less than bit-perfect decoding from either unit, as long as both are competent, and both very likely will be. Source devices and preprocessors will differentiate themselves in other ways, but not that one.as of today your list has but one prepro choice the Lexicon.Yes, and while I am a former Lex owner I would much prefer to have some competition in this space. Thankfully I can wait a year! By then I hope to have three or four good choices.Although I hear there are lots of receivers out there and they cost a lot less. Hey it all ones and zeros so they all sound the same, right?Of course not. There are lots of reasons processors can sound different. At this quality level we can take the one small issue of lossless decoding off the table. But there are other digital processing steps that can affect sound quality---and then of course there's the ever important analog stage. The difference between HDMI 1.2 and 1.3a is irrelevant to those.Lastly while some such as yourself see me on my high horse this is of little consequence to me as others here are keen to point out when folks talk trash. I see it as just me doing the same. One mans trash is another's treasure. it's all about how we perceive things. Yes?Uh, no. You incorrectly characterized Jeff's statements about the Halcro's upcoming HDMI capabilities, and used that objective mistake to springboard into namecalling. Talk trash all you want, but you might want to get your facts right first.

Folks thanks for the Halcro HDMI info.

Thebland

You posted that when and IF the Halcro multi channel HDMI upgrade happens it will not only do LPCM but also Dolby True HD and DTS-MA.

Correct me if I am wrong but my understanding is the the latter two codex are compressed and can only be sent over HDMI 1.3 and then are decoded internally in the prepro.

I understand that the Halcro is NOT HDMI 1.3 but rather an earlier HDMI version. Thus the Halcro can not decode Dolby True HD or DTS-MA. All you gain with the Halcro HDMI multi channel upgrade is the ability to D to A the LPCM multi channel bit stream ( which is fine ) but it will not do the compressed lossless formats internally.


Yes, I did say and it is technically true. With LCPM ability, the HAlcro will play uncompressed discs, and TRUE HD and DTS MA/HR via LPCM (the decoding is done in the player but all the glory of TRUE HD and DTS MA/HR will come through loud and clear after the LPCM update. The Halcro, like every other pre/pro available today (inc Lexicon), does not have these decoders.



Finally I would like to point out that while the BD and HD DVD decoding of Dolby True HD and DTS-MA using their internal decoders and then passing them out in the form of LPCM into the Halcro should be better than the these players internally decoding these formats and then D to A out to the Theta 6 Shooter, it will be even better to send the digital and fully compressed stream into the perpro and then in there decode and process as needed. These High end prepros will do a better job IMO than the far cheaper BD and HD DVD players.

Agreed. I have parroted this dr sometiem with Steve.


For you Thebland I think you must be going crazy as it seems to me that you are the sort of person who MUST be the first to own anything so as to brag about this to any and all.

So when you sold your "Gods gift to mankind" Lexicon and bought the (interestingly) better Halcro only to find out that you did not do your homework and this better Halcro is in fact missing the ONLY feature you really care about IE LPCM multi channel D to A and now you are forced to wait.

I find it sadly amusing that you out of one side of your mouth belittle the Theta owners for not having the LPCM ability and out of the other side of your mouth extol the Halcros' superiority which is exactly the same situation that you hate about Theta IE having to wait for an upgrade.

Lets see what is the name for someone like that..........

OH YA I remember a hypocrite

I will commend you on one thing though, you sure are brand loyal. As long as it is the brand you own today. Look out though for tomorrow when it is KICKED TO THE CURB and another paramour is introduced to the equipment rack. :)

Lets see there is a term for someone like that......

OH YA Fickle.

Allen, your level of knowledge in the area of digital has always come across as scant. You are a salesman. I am a hobbyist. LPCM is something any enthusiast pines for. It is like what 1080P did for video compared to 480P SD DVD. I am excited as this is the first change in audio in 10 years. You pick on me because you share no enthusiasm for the hobby. Moreover, your Theta line hsn't even gotten to HDMI yet. So, your sales are down. It is a big deal to have an uncompressed master. You haven't figured this out yet because you don't understnad it and your elite line refuses to offer it.

Allen, try smoking a little grass. The wine may not do it for you..

Oh look, the non-Halcro owners are back in the Halcro thread.

All the discussions about Halcro gear has stopped, and the monkeys are flinging poop at each other. How nice...

Actually I posted what I thought was a good set of questions and then the Halcro fanboy took it as an opportunity to bash Theta. Then the gloves came off.

Besides the 3 Halcro owners have little to say except "I wish Halcro would hurry up and release their HDMI upgrade". So be glad for the silence being broke. ;)

Thebland

Try sobriety it is always true and less confusing.

I hear AA can do wonders. ;)

Allen, try smoking a little grass. The wine may not do it for you..

I find that wine and AVS forum do just fine. I don't inhale the grass or do the l awn.

The forum is its own drug! :)

Oh look, the non-Halcro owners are back in the Halcro thread.

All the discussions about Halcro gear has stopped, and the monkeys are flinging poop at each other. How nice...

LOL, another hilarious post in this thread! :)

it will be even better to send the digital and fully compressed stream into the perpro and then in there decode and process as needed. These High end prepros will do a better job IMO than the far cheaper BD and HD DVD players.The decoding part is factually incorrect. As Michael pointed out, format recognition and decoding are standardized. It's not like pre-pro manufacturers invent their own decoding solution. They buy decoder chips which come pre-loaded with decoding technology licensed from companies like Dolby and DTS. Neither of those companies have special secret versions of their decoders that are reserved only for high end pre-pro manufacturers and not available to player manufactures. Even if a company could change the decoding process, they'd be violating the licensing agreement they signed.

Dolby Digital decoding in a Walmart HTiB is no different than DD decoding in a Levinson No.40. Data flagged for the left channel will end up in the left channel. The ML is not going to somehow put it further into the left channel. It's everything that follows the decoding step (D/A conversion, analogue stage, etc) that makes for the differences in sound we hear.

This remains true with lossless codecs such as Dolby TrueHD, which is basically like zipping a file to save space without discarding any data. Whether you unzip a document on a cheap desktop or an expensive laptop doesn't matter; you get the exact same document, down to the last bit. Similarly, decoding in the pre-pro is not going to yield anything different than decoding in the player. there are a lot of things that can be done less than optimally and when added together yield a less than stellar resultSure, but format decoding isn't one of these things. There are plenty of functional advantages to decoding in the player, but no advantage to transmitting a compressed stream for decoding in the pre-pro.

Sanjay

There are plenty of functional advantages to decoding in the player, but no advantage to transmitting a compressed stream for decoding in the pre-pro.
Sanjay

Would it not save a step to transmit the raw data and have it converted directly into analog in the pre-pro? Currently, step 1 is the player converting dd or whatever to pcm. Step 2 is the d to a conversion in the pre-pro. Is it not possible to transmit the raw data and have it only go through 1 conversion, directly from whatever stream to analog? I'm not sure if the raw data has to be converted to pcm first anyway which would mean 2 steps no matter where they were done.

Is it not possible to transmit the raw data and have it only go through 1 conversion, directly from whatever stream to analog?No, it really isn't. Decoding has to come first regardless. Besides, in many cases your processor is going to take further steps to process the digital bits before D/A conversion: bass management, matrixing, room correction (perhaps), delay management, digital crossovers, etc. etc.

I personally think that processors ought to get out of the business of decoding these compressed formats. Let the source devices deal with that step. In the past, it was kind of unavoidable, because the only digital connection we really had (S/PDIF) didn't have the bandwidth to handle multichannel PCM. Now that we have HDMI, that limitation is removed.

Processors already have plenty to do as it is; and I don't want to have to replace mine or wait for a new standard every time some new codec comes out. (Remember DTS?)

I wish the HDMI folks had left well enough alone and kept their audio spec as-is between 1.2 and 1.3. Heck I could have done without DSD support, but I can understand why people would push for that.

Would it not save a step to transmit the raw data and have it converted directly into analog in the pre-pro?If that were possible, then yes. But everything does have to be converted to PCM first. For example: there's no such thing as a DTS to analogue converter. Lossy codecs have to be decompressed; lossless codecs have to be unpacked. The result in both cases is LPCM.

Besides, everything in modern audio gear is based on PCM. That's the format digital audio needs to be in to do things like bass management, time alignment, surround processing, room correction, D/A conversion, etc. You can't do any of that when the data is in its compressed state. It would be like trying to Photoshop an image while it is still a zipped file.

The lone exception to this is SACD. The data is stored as DST (losslessly packed DSD). Once unpacked, DSD can be converted directly to analogue. I think some Pioneer and Denon players used to transmit DSD natively to their receivers and perform D/A conversion without a PCM step inbetween.

But again, if you want to do something as simple as time align the channels, then you need to convert to PCM. BTW, this isn't just for consumer gear, as it also applies to the recording studio. "Direct to DSD" recordings have to be converted to 8-bit PCM for mixing and mastering before being converted back to DSD for release on SACD.

Sanjay

Would it not save a step to transmit the raw data and have it converted directly into analog in the pre-pro? Currently, step 1 is the player converting dd or whatever to pcm. Step 2 is the d to a conversion in the pre-pro. Is it not possible to transmit the raw data and have it only go through 1 conversion, directly from whatever stream to analog? I'm not sure if the raw data has to be converted to pcm first anyway which would mean 2 steps no matter where they were done.

No, it is 2 steps no matter what. In the studio the audio starts off as PCM. It is then encoded/compressed (to save bandwidth) using the various DD/DTS flavors. On playback the audio is decoded/decompressed back to PCM. Then if applicable the PCM is processed then finally converted back to analog.

Shawn

If that were possible, then yes. But everything does have to be converted to PCM first. For example: there's no such thing as a DTS to analogue converter. Lossy codecs have to be decompressed; lossless codecs have to be unpacked. The result in both cases is LPCM.

Besides, everything in modern audio gear is based on PCM. That's the format digital audio needs to be in to do things like bass management, time alignment, surround processing, room correction, D/A conversion, etc. You can't do any of that when the data is in its compressed state. It would be like trying to Photoshop an image while it is still a zipped file.

The lone exception to this is SACD. The data is stored as DST (losslessly packed DSD). Once unpacked, DSD can be converted directly to analogue. I think some Pioneer and Denon players used to transmit DSD natively to their receivers and perform D/A conversion without a PCM step inbetween.

But again, if you want to do something as simple as time align the channels, then you need to convert to PCM. BTW, this isn't just for consumer gear, as it also applies to the recording studio. "Direct to DSD" recordings have to be converted to 8-bit PCM for mixing and mastering before being converted back to DSD for release on SACD.

Sanjay

I suspected as much. Thanks for the info (all who replied)

I don't disagree, but you didn't state it this way above. You said that doing the decoding in the source device is inferior to doing it in the processor. Well, there is no reason to expect less than bit-perfect decoding from either unit, as long as both are competent, and both very likely will be. Source devices and preprocessors will differentiate themselves in other ways, but not that one.Yes, and while I am a former Lex owner I would much prefer to have some competition in this space. Thankfully I can wait a year! By then I hope to have three or four good choices.Of course not. There are lots of reasons processors can sound different. At this quality level we can take the one small issue of lossless decoding off the table. But there are other digital processing steps that can affect sound quality---and then of course there's the ever important analog stage. The difference between HDMI 1.2 and 1.3a is irrelevant to those.Uh, no. You incorrectly characterized Jeff's statements about the Halcro's upcoming HDMI capabilities, and used that objective mistake to springboard into namecalling. Talk trash all you want, but you might want to get your facts right first.

I don't see the Anthem D2 in the list anywhere...great product that can do lpcm.

I personally think that processors ought to get out of the business of decoding these compressed formats. Let the source devices deal with that step.Indeed. I wish all sources (set top cable boxes, satellite radio, disc players, iPod, etc) output everything as PCM.

If some new codec (Dolby TrulyTrueHD) shows up in the future, you'll need a new player anyway. But as long as future players output the signal as full resolution PCM, then you'll never need to change your HDMI based pre-pro.

Unfortunately, folks have gotten so used to decoding in the pre-pro, some are resisting the paradigm shift to in-player decoding.

Sanjay

The Bogg---I'm keeping my eye on the Anthem D2 as well, though I did indeed omit it from a previous list I shared. Thanks for the reminder.

Re the SSP-80, my understanding is that there is a sizable upgrade available for the unit. Have you shipped units that already have the new board/software, and how would I know? Serial # sequence?

Is there a complete update coming that will replace the 80/100 in the next couple months, or will you just operate like Theta and just perpetually upgrade the existing platform?

The Ethernet input, do you make constant software updates via the Ethernet connection? (does it need to be continually connected to the internet?)

Then I REALLY PUSH IT!
Re the MC-50. Is it possible to get an MC-50 but in an MC-70 case. I ask as I would like to separate the binding posts for greater clearance with my speaker cables. Would one be able to swap cases and just leave the two extra lights unconnected?

Thank you

I aswered all my own questions...

First, the upgrade is still not available. It will be in LV in a couple weeks, with those in line, getting first crack.$1,3??) for the whole deal. From what I can tell, it sounds like not everyone is getting the same upgrade. Depending on when your unit was made, they will make more/less changes with some early adopters getting a full processor upgrade! Essentially getting every unit on the same page.

Going forward, they will offer the upgrade for people who want the multi channel PCM, so even if you order a factory fresh SSP100, your not getting the Multi PCM, but you will cut the upgrade line? :D That said, if your unit is 2 years old, you might have cause to send it in just to get updated, even if you don't want/need multi pCM.

They don't sound real keen on people doing their own software upgrades. The hardware upgrade needs to be done in a clean room, so no DIY on that front.

As for the amp, and likely the MOST interesting. The MC-50 and MC-70 uhm, don't sound as good as the MC-20 and MC-30. Thats not me saying this. :eek: In part due to the fact that the MC50/70 have internal fans to handle all the heat, also slightly less power and the greater drain on the same power supply. SO, if your think the Stereophile review on the MC-20 carries over to the mc-50/70, your mistaken.

Finally, you cannot build a MC-50 in the body of an MC-70. I knew that, I just tried anyway.

So, there you have it.

A couple of more weeks.........sigh :(

I can understand that the boards come from Australia so that is quite a trip plus customs can really hold things up. Hopefully it will be soon as I am chomping at the bit like I am sure everyone else is.

OK, let the Theta flamers begin as us Halcro lovers duck for cover......... Steve, Bulldogger let the mud slinging begin :rolleyes:

Not that I'm thinking of jumping ship from the Lexicon MC-12HD . . . but I do want 1080p support, and I want 7.1 over HDMI. I'm assuming that both will be available with the Halcro upgrade?

Is that correct? If so, anything else?

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

A couple of more weeks.........sigh :(

I can understand that the boards come from Australia so that is quite a trip plus customs can really hold things up. Hopefully it will be soon as I am chomping at the bit like I am sure everyone else is.

OK, let the Theta flamers begin as us Halcro lovers duck for cover......... Steve, Bulldogger let the mud slinging begin :rolleyes:

Actually the boards came from Ireland and sat in US Customs for 2 weeks waiting to clear the manifest.

Software and boards will be installed in several company units first; checked and double checked. Making sure the people who install them for customers know what they are doing. Patience grasshopper. Soon; real soon.

A couple of more weeks.........sigh :(

I can understand that the boards come from Australia so that is quite a trip plus customs can really hold things up. Hopefully it will be soon as I am chomping at the bit like I am sure everyone else is.

OK, let the Theta flamers begin as us Halcro lovers duck for cover......... Steve, Bulldogger let the mud slinging begin :rolleyes:

Actually the boards came from Ireland and sat in US Customs for 2 weeks waiting to clear the manifest.

Software and boards will be installed in several company units first; checked and double checked. Making sure the people who install them for customers know what they are doing. Patience grasshopper. Soon; real soon.

Not that I'm thinking of jumping ship from the Lexicon MC-12HD . . . but I do want 1080p support, and I want 7.1 over HDMI. I'm assuming that both will be available with the Halcro upgrade?

Is that correct? If so, anything else?

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

7.1 over HDMI and 1080P are what has been promised all along. We'll see.

So, in my attempt to support my local dealer, I just got back from the local Halcro dealer empty handed. It was pretty much a 20 minute pitch on WHY a Halcro processor is "not" ready for prime time and that the McIntosh processor is such a better piece, unless you want to step up to the Mark Lev... He was guarded, but somewhat complementary of the multi channel amps... I am not using the dealer for setup, install or even a demo (did that CES), I think I am going to the internet...

So, in my attempt to support my local dealer, I just got back from the local Halcro dealer empty handed. It was pretty much a 20 minute pitch on WHY a Halcro processor is "not" ready for prime time and that the McIntosh processor is such a better piece, unless you want to step up to the Mark Lev... He was guarded, but somewhat complementary of the multi channel amps... I am not using the dealer for setup, install or even a demo (did that CES), I think I am going to the internet...

I had sent you a PM --- I can help you if you're interested.

Does the McIntosh support HDMI?

7.1 hdmi is supported.
1080i and 1080 p 60 is suppoprted; 1080 p 24 is not and will not be until 1.3 is implemented. Of course you could just use the output from the blu ray player and just bypass the scaler direcctly to your projectror. Of course the dealer told you that before he recommended the MAC................
BTW HDMI is not supported on the MAC

7.1 hdmi is supported.
1080i and 1080 p 60 is supported; 1080 p 24 is not and will not be until 1.3 is implemented.

The HDMI 1.1 of my Anthem D2 is fully working with 1080p24 from my Blu-ray player, and out to a JVC HD-1. No support of 1080p24 is a serious omission IMHO, particularly with 1080p24 coming in september for some HD DVD players, and almost all the Blu-ray players already outputting it.

You can pass-thru your HDMI input bypassing the scaler and output directly to your projector from your blu ray player. Not sure why you think this is a issue on the Halco. Its the scaler that will not support 1080 p 24 until it supports 1.3

The HDMI 1.1 of my Anthem D2 is fully working with 1080p24 from my Blu-ray player, and out to a JVC HD-1. No support of 1080p24 is a serious omission IMHO, particularly with 1080p24 coming in september for some HD DVD players, and almost all the Blu-ray players already outputting it.

That's very surprising. I *cannot* use my blu-ray player in 1080p24 going through the D2 into my JVC RS1; if I do, every few minutes it will only play about 3 frames second, as if the source was in slow motion (audio remains fine).

So what would be the difference between my chain and yours?

Blu-ray player: PS3
D2 software : v1.12s

Can you shed any light on this?

Levesque has never posted 1 issue with his D2 though the Anthem thread is loaded with 1000s of issues. As far as I can see, his Anthem is the only unit that has worked flawlessly with each update....Take that info as you will.

You can pass-thru your HDMI input bypassing the scaler and output directly to your projector from your blu ray player. Not sure why you think this is a issue on the Halco. Its the scaler that will not support 1080 p 24 until it supports 1.3

I have the SSP80. After the upgrade will it pass the 1080p24 signal thru to my RS1?

I have the SSP80. After the upgrade will it pass the 1080p24 signal thru to my RS1?

The SSP80 does not have a scaler but if I understand correctly if you send a 1080P24 signal the SSP80 will just pass it through. I do not see why it would be any different.

I have the SSP100 but do not use the built in scaler. I do not have a 1080P24 display but 1080P60 which I do send is received perfectly going through the SSP100.

Since your SSP80 does not have a scaler then whatever you feed it should be what you get out.

It's now July 23rd and still no news on the upgrade?????????? I'm not chopping on the bit like some of you (mjaudio) but c'mon Halcro let's get the show on the road already.

Bad,

The first time I ready about the HDMI Audio upgrade (coming soon) was about October 6th. It is only 9.5 months later. You can't really complain til its been a full year (or HDMI is obsolete).

At least Halcro is keeping us well informed about the upgrade, its features, when it will be released, etc. And they make firmware upgrades readily available, so that's a plus.

*** OK, putting Sacrasm Suit back in the box for now...

Darrell

Bad,

The first time I ready about the HDMI Audio upgrade (coming soon) was about October 6th. It is only 9.5 months later. You can't really complain til its been a full year (or HDMI is obsolete).

At least Halcro is keeping us well informed about the upgrade, its features, when it will be released, etc. And they make firmware upgrades readily available, so that's a plus.

*** OK, putting Sacrasm Suit back in the box for now...

Darrell

I think you need to realize that this isn't your standard upgrade. Not all upgrades are created equally. That is, not everyone gets everything for their $1,300.

Older machines will get new processors and other upgrades that more recent machines won't. That's because the newer machines received these components when first built. Essentially, the SSP80/100 has some "upgrades" along the way. All will get PCM, etc.

I fail to see what your comments have to do with Bad's point about it being so late, or mine about it being late and Halcro keeping the customers poorly informed.

Are you saying that because they "tweaked" the machine along it's product life that designing an upgrade is harder?

If so, I would counter that they shouldn't do that if the machines were fine from day 1, as they knew for a year, they were going to do an HDMI Audio upgrade?

Or, were the first machines sooo screwed up that the tweaks were absolutely necessary? If so, why was Halcro selling $10,000 screwed up machines?

You may see Halcro's point more than mine, but as a customer, I plopped down some serious cash for a sweet sounding unit. With that, I expect quick fixes when there are problems, and I expect good customer service.

Halcro made the upgrade path difficult for themselves. The customer has had to wait as a result, and you let Halcro off the hook for it as if it was someone else's doing.

IMO, they should at least be kicking butt in other aspects, by putting out firmware updates, improving their first level support, and keeping the customers informed.

I would be interested to see a poll that asks the Halcro SSP80 and SSP100 if they have needed to send their untis in for repair. I bet the rate would be high, and I bet many more would respond saying they have issues, but are working around them because they don't want to lose their unit for several weeks.

At times I think Halcro is trying to do right by their customers, but are working with a buggy architechure.

It is probably smart to re-vamp all the machines when they go in for upgrades so they have a cleaner architechture (although having to pay for an upgrade to get rid of bugs, isn't right).

Darrell

Darrell,

I concur with most of your comments. Halcro has not communicated to it's user base about this upgrade in a professional manner. It appears the trickle down effect has always come from dealers or people who know dealers on this forum. There is little information that is provided by their corporate headquarters.

Their web site on the News header link is conveying information from 2005 about their processor. I think this is pretty negligent on their part. Firmware updates, coming product enhancements would be very desirable.

Personally, I can wait for the upgrade and when it's available, I'll probably jump on it. However, for those who have waited for an extensive period of time and truly are adamant about its arrival, I can understand their anxiety. I had a similar experience with my AVM20 where Anthem was jerking me around for years about an upgrade path and I became tired of their shtick and went to the SSP80.

We've had a few people complain about email delays and attempting to find answers on some basic questions about their product. I was fortunate that I had an email address that I passed on to one person and hopefully that individual was able to find some answers. Halcro it seems is not responsive to emails unless you have a specific email address..

In defense of Halcro, I had a bad unit that had elevated floor noise. Apparently some of the earlier units had this issue. Halcro sent me a replacement unit without questions or cost incurred on my part. They were responsive to my needs. A positive!! My dealer was professional and handled my situation with concern and spontaneity. However, he is handcuffed sharing information because of a lack of detail from Halcro about this upgrade.

With that older unit analogy in mind, maybe what yetis writes is correct. Halcro seems to have tweaked the product as the years have progressed and it's more then a board swap. It is very possible that as he writes everyone needs to be on the same platform and there are parts of the supply chain that need to be in place before they begin.

IMHO, Halcro should be more forthcoming, share information and let it's user base know what the situation is concerning this upgrade. No news creates rumors and negativity. In my life, I've learned it's best to tell the truth and let people know what the situation is as speculation leads to bad press and a dissatisfied customer base.

I am very happy with the SSP80. In the short time I've owned it, it's been a welcome addition to my HT and music enjoyment. However, purely from a customer desiring information, they seem to lack either the resources or/and the business sense to understand what people who purchase their product desire at this particular moment in their product cycle. What we want is open, honest communication that is readily available.

Charles

Mozvz,

Don't get me wrong. I am not anti-Halcro. I do like the sound of the unit, and I do think management is doing the best they can most days, with the apparently buggy box they started with.

But, when people post things in a near-fanboy way, it sets me off. Halcro is doing things very well and some things poorly.

I had to spend a lot of time debugging my first unit. Finally Halcro agreed there was an issue. I sent it in and the "new" repair shop screwed up the firmaware upgrade and needed a new chip sent out. After several weeks, I escalated the issue, and Halcro sent me a different unit (a demo unit).

So 2 months after purchase, I had another unit. This had a problem with the firmaware. After a couple weeks of back and forth, tech support agreed there was a problem. The engineers started on a fix. A week or two later they sent me a fix.

I greatly appreciate that Halcro replaced my unit. I am greatful that Halcro made a firmware update just for me (apparently I am the only one running it). On the other hand, I am pissed I had to spend 3 months debugging issues, having to send in my unit for several weeks, etc.

I paid good money for a good sounding working unit , and instead I went to Halcro University and became an unofficial tester.

The units sound great. If I was able to have pulled it out of the box and simply enjoy it without 3 months of hassles, I would probably be posting in fanboy like fashion too. The unit does sound that good.

Unfortunately, I think most of have had issues of some sort, needing repairs, firmware updates, of figuring work around for things that just are working right.

Part of me wants to get the HDMI Audio upgrade, and part of me is scared to send my unit again. Part of me is annoyed at the price. It sounds like part of the upgrade cost is to fix things in the older units (things that should have worked from day 1).

Anyway, I am routing for Halcro. I hope they are sucessful with the upgrades and I hope they work on their communication.

Darrell

I've had a Halcro personally and in my store since day one. There have been problems but Halcro has been on fixing each of them, even if its taken time.

This upgrade has taken a long time, no doubt. But I think everyone will be pleasantly surprised when the kits and fresh units start arriving very shortly, and Jeff will be getting one if the first, the wait will have been well worth it.....especially in comparison to a closed box, never upgraded MC12HD.

especially in comparison to a closed box, never upgraded MC12HD.What upgrades were you expecting within the first year of release? Multi-channel PCM over HDMI? It already shipped with that. The ability to apply everything (bass management, time alignment, surround processing, room correction) to the HDMI inputs? Already shipped with that capability. Besides, it still has open slots and an unused blanking plate on the back panel, so it's hardly a closed box.

Sanjay