I'm stayin' out of this one!!!@@@ But my Six Shooter is blarin' and ready to play.


Here Steve, come and get the nice piece of cheese The Bland Jeff is placing for you on his Theta trap:D:eek:

I am hoping that is the case. However I am being told by one engineer, that does not work for Halcro, that while HDMI 1.1 is capable of accepting 7.1 LPCM, the working solutions will use the newer on-board decorders to route 7.1 LPCM. It's not that these new decorders could not work with 1.1 but they are being "bundled" if that's a good term with the HDMI 1.3 solutions. To put it simply, I am being told that it is unlikely the Halcro will have the hardware to do 7.1 LPCM. Hope that information is wrong. New hardware, mostly not on the market yet is required to do 7.1 LPCM. That new hardware is going to be used with HDMI 1.3 solutions. Can anyone confirm or refute this? Maybe Halcro is using some of the newer hardware but with HDMI 1.1?


Since no 2nd tier company has a 1.3a or is it 1.3b evaluation kit to even design updated hardware; I suggest that people be happy with what they have. The Denon 3800 is the only hardware on the horizon that can make use of 7.1 LPCM and its delayed. Toshiba says they will have firmware updates by the end of the year for DTS MA HD, apparently there may be one or two titles out there that have a mono ambient channel of info.

Do we just need something to B*tch about? Would I like to see it; yep would sound really great on my system; but my gut says this conversation will be going on well into 2009. By then we will be talking about HDMI-CEC protocol and interlinking.

JBM,

I'm pretty sure the ole Denon 3806, 4806 recievers do LPCM via HDMI with the firmware they released about 9 months ago.

Regards,
Darrell

JBM,

I'm pretty sure the ole Denon 3806, 4806 recievers do LPCM via HDMI with the firmware they released about 9 months ago.

Regards,
Darrell

Darrell

I think its LPCM 5.1 , not 7.1 discrete. And it does not do DTS HD MA

But at this point who cares any more, There isn't one disc out that is true 7.1 audio. And I mean complete seperate audio channels of sound; not remixed ambient information for the rear channels that is the same as the side channels. At the pace this has been happening out in the real world; we are probably talking 2009 WHY? becuse the allmighty dollar drives the introduction of new products. When 98% of the systems out there are still 5.1 systems and will be for the next 2-3 years; there is no incentive to introduce these new features. We can want all we want; but an extra 2 channels of information just is not going to get anybody's jucies flowing, but for us wacos on the forum.

There isn't one disc out that is true 7.1 audio. And I mean complete seperate audio channels of sound; not remixed ambient information for the rear channels that is the same as the side channels.Are you sure? Bulldogger mentioned Ghost in the Shell; some Googling turned up a 7.1LPCM Van Wilder (what the heck!), Crank, Weeds, Delta Farce, Ultimate Avengers Collection... now maybe one could argue that these are just matrixed versions of 5.1 audio, but if you're going to use the PCM track at all, you'd need all 8 channels to do it right, even if you had to downmix to 7 or 6 channels. And yeah these aren't top-tier titles but it does seem to indicate that 7.1 is coming.

Are you sure? Bulldogger mentioned Ghost in the Shell; some Googling turned up a 7.1LPCM Van Wilder (what the heck!), Crank, Weeds, Delta Farce, Ultimate Avengers Collection... now maybe one could argue that these are just matrixed versions of 5.1 audio, but if you're going to use the PCM track at all, you'd need all 8 channels to do it right, even if you had to downmix to 7 or 6 channels. And yeah these aren't top-tier titles but it does seem to indicate that 7.1 is coming.

I bought a couple of titles to see. Ultimate Avengers appears to be 6.1 discrete channels. The back channels are duplicated. However, 6.1 still sounds better than 5.1 and it's very easy to hear. The cover says 7.1 uncompressed PCM but it's not 8 true channels as the rear channels are clearly duplicates. I think no one is mixing more than a single channel to the rear. True 7.1 will likely involve the additional channel being a height channel. I almost had to take a cold shower after watching "Ultimate Avengers:D." It is rated PG-13 likely because of how provocative they animated the female characters and the violence. Damn, they are "old school" comic book super heroine "fine" if you know what I mean. I saw a couple of titles at Best Buy that said 7.1 uncompressed or DTS Master Audio 7.1. I purchase one other that is DTS-Master audio 7.1. The Panasonic Blu-ray player that I have can decode the core DTS HD to 7.1. I will see if it could be 8 discrete channels.

Ready to give up on your Theta Bulldog if it's all 7.1? Is that what I am hearing?

Well you know I have only had the Theta for about a year and a half so I am not an old die-hard like Steve:) and do switch brands. However, no, I am not switching. I am sticking with it mostly because of the sound quality of the Six Shooter. That does not mean that I am not excited by another true high-end company coming to the market with 7.1. It's great and I am happy for you all:)! I have had a lot of plus 5K analog two channel pre-amps and the Six Shooter still has my head spinnng as to how good it sounds with stand alone SACD players. Keep me posted on the upgrade and I am envious.

Come on Bulldooger

Part with some of that hard earned cash. You know the rules; the guy with the most toys when he dies wins, other wise his wife will spend it on something they really need ......

PS I am not that desperate to buy Van Wilder just to hear 7.1 LPCM

Come on Bulldooger

Part with some of that hard earned cash. You know the rules; the guy with the most toys when he dies wins, other wise his wife will spend it on something they really need ......

PS I am not that desperate to buy Van Wilder just to hear 7.1 LPCM

Oh, I'll part with some cash when Theta offers the upgrade. Maybe switch from my Superior II dacs to Extreme dacs while I'm at it. The best thing about this is that these 10k plus pre/pros are finally getting source material/signal worthy of what they can do. For the first time, I am truly feeling that the sound quality for movies is worth the money. I always felt that way about my gear for music but have never been impressed with Dolby Digital feeling it sounded thin and metalic. The Panasonic Blu-ray player sounds fine but not as good as the Toshiba A1 HD-DVD player to my ears.. A bit flat and lifeless but it shows the promise of the new formats for sound. Halcro owners should realize the full potential of that sound shortly.

Another soul lost to Theta..........<grin>

Hello everyone,
I haven't been on this thread in a long time. I was reading to see if anyone had heard the upgrade yet. I got to hear it at CEDIA. Forgive me if I missed a thread or an earlier post.

My initial impressions were WOW! Halcro was using a Playstation for there Blu-ray player. Stealth was the movie. They did not have a listening room, so accoustics sucked and there was a ton of background noise from the floor.

That being said, it was still very easy to hear the difference between uncompressed and standard 5.1. Gary actually turned the volume down about 10dB (give or take a few dB) to accomodate the increase in dynamic range from the uncompressed track. All of you wondering if it would be worth the upgrade, I would get your player on the list. It is worth it. I had been waiting myself, but now that I have heard it in person, it's a no brainer.

I also stopped by LG and Toshiba to see if HD-DVD was going to play uncompressed tracks, no one I spoke with could give me an answer either way. Maybe some one on this thread knows?

If you considering buying your first Halcro, just take the plunge and get new models with the upgrade already installed.

Well you know I have only had the Theta for about a year and a half so I am not an old die-hard like Steve:) and do switch brands. However, no, I am not switching. I am sticking with it mostly because of the sound quality of the Six Shooter. That does not mean that I am not excited by another true high-end company coming to the market with 7.1. It's great and I am happy for you all:)! I have had a lot of plus 5K analog two channel pre-amps and the Six Shooter still has my head spinnng as to how good it sounds with stand alone SACD players. Keep me posted on the upgrade and I am envious.

Bulldogger, I think it make sense for you to wait since you already made the investment in Theta. It is an awesome unit.

Anyone else on the bubble, if you don't have a ton of DVD-A and SACD in your collection, I think it would be hard to justify the increase in cost to go to the Theta system. Would you get better analog with the Theta? probably, better movies? that is a tough one. Better digital two channel? Halcro would probably win that battle. They are both top notch players.

If you are really into two channel there a few 3K tube preamps (small manufactures that don't advertise) out there that you can run the Halcro as a passthough and have the best of both worlds and save a lot of dough. Plus you won't have to wait wait for the upgrade.

Of course the above is only my opinion and really doesn't mean much to anyone except myself:)

Better digital two channel? Halcro would probably win that battle. They are both top notch players.


Not sure I agree. Theta's using FET switches and much more high-end Nichon caps at the back end of the dac boards. Volume control in the Theta is about 200.00 likely in parts. In the Halcro, about 12.00 or so, cheap op amps. You don't typically see the type of parts that Theta uses in pre-pros. Usually they are in two channel pre-amps that cost 5k and up before you start to see this kind of build quality. I would like to hear the Halcro but I am fairly certain that the build quality on the Theta is significantly higher. Halcro according to reports has done very well with it's parts. I really do not want to get into a Theta vs Halcro thread but my motives for sticking with Theta are also based on build quality. Take a look at my attachment for the Six Shooter. Those are almost the identical parts in the Casablanca. If anyone want to take a digital camera and take inside pics of the Halcro, I am sure you will be able to determine the difference in build quality. Flame suit on.:).

Not sure I agree. Theta's using FET switches and much more high-end Nichon caps at the back end of the dac boards. Volume control in the Theta is about 200.00 likely in parts. In the Halcro, about 12.00 or so, cheap op amps. You don't typically see the type of parts that Theta uses in pre-pros. Usually they are in two channel pre-amps that cost 5k and up before you start to see this kind of build quality. I would like to hear the Halcro but I am fairly certain that the build quality on the Theta is significantly higher. Halcro according to reports has done very well with it's parts. I really do not want to get into a Theta vs Halcro thread but my motives for sticking with Theta are also based on build quality. Take a look at my attachment for the Six Shooter. Those are almost the identical parts in the Casablanca. If anyone want to take a digital camera and take inside pics of the Halcro, I am sure you will be able to determine the difference in build quality. Flame suit on.:).

Oh boy Bulldogger I hope you have a triple layered flame suit on.:D

But I won't disagree with you. My Halcro is an exception surround sound processor but there is definitely room for improvement in 2 channel operation. I'm not saying it's bad, it's actually quite good but not at the level I'm used to. I run a separate preamp just for 2 channel, an Aesthetix Janus. The Aesthetix wins out over my Halcro no problem.

Edit: Now if we're talking about the Halcro DM10 preamp that's a whole other game. But of course that's a 2 channel preamp with a 10 thousand dollar price tag.:)

Is that Six-shooter up to code? The earth prong on the power jack isn't hooked up to anything. Otherwise nothing special about the rest of it.

--Andre

Is that Six-shooter up to code? The earth prong on the power jack isn't hooked up to anything. Otherwise nothing special about the rest of it.

--Andre

You guys gripe when a Theta owner invades a Halcro thread so I have nothin' to say - I'm working on gettin' myself well grounded!!!!:D

Otherwise nothing special about the rest of it.

--Andre

Same challenge to you. Get out the digital camera and show me what you are using for volume control. I already know, cheap op amps. Well, I guess they would be considered the expensive ones, for op-amps, at almost 2.00 a piece.

The earth prong on the power jack isn't hooked up to anything. Otherwise nothing special about the rest of it.

--Andre

That's the fuse you are looking at. If you do not think that discrete outs vs using op-amps is something special, perhaps you should take a look at the most current issue of "The Absolute Sound on page 22, issue 175? If you dispute these conclusion please explain why? "Many high-end designers face the decision of whether to use op-amps in their products or to realize circuits with discrete transistors and associated parts(resistors and capacitors). While op-amps are much smaller,cheaper, and easier to implement than discrete circuits-an op-amp a fraction of the size of a postage stamp can replace a dozen or more individual components that would consume several square inches of circuit board real estate-historically they have not matched the sound quality of well-designed discrete circuits(tube or transistor).That's largely because the op-amps available today are designed for mass market applications, where low cost is the primary consideration. The highest-end-products use discrete circuits exclusively, and several designers won't even consider using op-amps." Most pre-pros use op-amps in their design. I know of at least one exception but suspect that at least two more do not as well.

That's the fuse you are looking at. If you do not think that discrete outs vs using op-amps is something special, (snip)

The green circle in the attached picture is the fuse. The red circle is the unterminated earth prong.

If you didn't see something as basic as this in a picture, I don't think you should be debating circuit design issues like discrete vs. op-amp tradeoffs.

--Andre

TAS is not exactly an authority on circuit design. The best and most innovative circuit design being done today is in integrated circuits. There have been many cases where audio people have done their discrete design by copying circuits from op-amp datasheets, and have implemented them poorly because they don't understand the environment that the IC circuits are in.

--Andre

Andre,

That doesn't look double insulated. Wonder if the UL has actually seen that one.

"If you didn't see something as basic as this in a picture, I don't think you should be debating circuit design issues like discrete vs. op-amp tradeoffs."

LOL, that is the problem. Too many that know nothing about electronics think it is the parts that make the circuit. It isn't, it is the design. Best parts in the world in a lousy design will be outperformed handily by less expensive parts in a world class design.

Shawn

Best parts in the world in a lousy design will be outperformed handily by less expensive parts in a world class design.


Or even a competently executed design.

Cheers,
Philip Brandes

"Or even a competently executed design."

True.

Shawn

Congratulations. You Lexicon surround processor owners have invaded a Halcro threads with your anti-Theta garbage and crap. Its well established Theta's design acumen on their products. The angle of the picture doesn't clearly indicate whether or not the ground on the Six Shooter is connected. And consumer AV products may be correctly designed without use or connection of the ground anyway. Its only a big deal for you Lex luvers to hammer at Theta and close what was otherwise a productive Halcro thread. Shame on you.

Any idiot can listen to a high resolution system using a Six Shooter vs other surround processors (see - I don't even mention Lex here, no need to) as an analog multi-channel preamp and hear which sounds better.

Steve, chill out. Bulldogger posted a photo of the insides of a Theta product, for goodness sakes. In this very thread. So who again was it that "invaded" the Halcro thread? Your double standards are sometimes amusing and sometimes frustrating!

To Bulldogger's credit we've been having some good side discussions in this thread up to this point. Nothing wrong with that; after all, we've been waiting a long time for this Halcro update, so what else are we gonna talk about? :) But he knew EXACTLY what he was doing when he posted that picture and its surrounding text. After all, he did say "flame suit on."

A Theta owner put up a picture as some sort of 'challenge' for the design of their chosen product. That people respond to that on a public forum should not be shocking..

"The angle of the picture doesn't clearly indicate whether or not the ground on the Six Shooter is connected."

Yes, it shows clearly that it isn't connected. If you have ever soldered pretty much *anything* that should be obvious.

"And consumer AV products may be correctly designed without use or connection of the ground anyway. "

Only if the design is double insulated. This doesn't appear to be. Pretty sure that wouldn't pass UL safety standards.

Shawn

Steve, chill out. Bulldogger posted a photo of the insides of a Theta product, for goodness sakes. In this very thread. So who again was it that "invaded" the Halcro thread? Your double standards are sometimes amusing and sometimes frustrating!

To Bulldogger's credit we've been having some good side discussions in this thread up to this point. Nothing wrong with that; after all, we've been waiting a long time for this Halcro update, so what else are we gonna talk about? :) But he knew EXACTLY what he was doing when he posted that picture and its surrounding text. After all, he did say "flame suit on."


Indeed Steve, stay out of ths one...Between Shawn and Andrew, I think they have things in hand in addressing what Bulldogger brought into this thread (RE:Theta). I am staying out as well as this is far beyond my knowledge base...

And as Mike has eluded to (and as the Halcro guy this thread is all about), I am happy for side discussions until we get some Halcro LPCM user reports...

For now, it is Bulldoggers turn for rebuttal.

Any idiot can listen to a high resolution system using a Six Shooter vs other surround processors

And clearly many idiots have. But I don't see what that has to do with the technical design issues under discussion.

Cheers,
Philip Brandes

I am happy for side discussions until we get some Halcro LPCM user reports...Indeed, pre-pros from Anthem, Meridian, Theta, Lexicon, etc. have all been brought up in this thread. Whichever pre-pro may be the main topic of a given thread, comparisons are inevitable (and healthy, as long as the discussion remains civil).

Sanjay

Oh boy Bulldogger I hope you have a triple layered flame suit on.:D

But I won't disagree with you. My Halcro is an exception surround sound processor but there is definitely room for improvement in 2 channel operation. I'm not saying it's bad, it's actually quite good but not at the level I'm used to. I run a separate preamp just for 2 channel, an Aesthetix Janus. The Aesthetix wins out over my Halcro no problem.

Edit: Now if we're talking about the Halcro DM10 preamp that's a whole other game. But of course that's a 2 channel preamp with a 10 thousand dollar price tag.:)
Dennis, Aesthetix' owner and head designer is Jim White. Jim was a lead designer at Theta and a lot of his "Mind & Soul" is in several Theta products.

That doesn't look double insulated. Wonder if the UL has actually seen that one.


I'm really trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, because this omission would be so fundamentally wrong. It's like building a car and forgetting the seatbelts.

Another possibility is that this power plug could have a through-hole connector for the earth on the bottom along with the unused lug we see. It's hard to tell from the picture, but the shape of the plug doesn't imply that it does: those kinds of connectors usually have a central hump in the back for the earth prong to angle down into the PCB.

That's why I asked it as a question instead of outright stating it as a dumb mistake, or worse.

But if it has one, and they used the through-hole connector, that has other issues as well: where is the PCB bonded to the chassis, and how much current can the traces connected to the earth carry? They have to carry in excess of 15 amps in order to trip a circuit breaker.

--Andre

But he [Bulldogger] knew EXACTLY what he was doing when he posted that picture and its surrounding text. After all, he did say "flame suit on."

Perhaps he was talking about putting a flame suit on the Six Shooter, given its potentially combusitible design?

Cheers,
Philip Brandes

"But if it has one, and they used the through-hole connector, that has other issues as well: where is the PCB bonded to the chassis, and how much current can the traces connected to the earth carry? They have to carry in excess of 15 amps in order to trip a circuit breaker."

For those that don't know what Andre is talking about this is the function of the safety ground. It is there so if there was some sort of fault that allowed the incoming AC to energize the chassis the chassis is normally grounded such that your circuit breaker would immediately trip. This is done so you can't end up having a chassis floating with 120v AC on it... touch that device while you are grounded and it could kill you.

If the Six Shooter does connect to the chassis through the PCB itself those traces need to be able to carry 15+ amps to be able to trip the circuit breaker. If they can't carry that sort of current if the chassis did ever become energized it could burn up that trace before the circuit breaker tripped. That would end up leaving the chassis floating at 120v again with the potential to kill someone. If there is no suitable safety grounding of the chassis the potential for this issue exists.

This is likewise why people that use 'cheater' plugs incorrectly are removing an important safety function of their equipment. Your interconnects grounds can't handle 15+ amps of current. Those ground connections are not strong enough to trip your circuit breaker, they would burn up leaving the device floating at 120v and if one is a little more unlucky the burnt up ground in the interconnects could start a fire.

Shawn

Perhaps he was talking about putting a flame suit on the Six Shooter, given its potentially combusitible design?


I think flame suits work and sound better with the Six Shooter. I've seen a Six Shooter personally run into a flaming apartment building with no regard for its life (or discrete FET-switched $200 volume control), and rescue 6 babies, carrying one per input.

--Andre

I think flame suits work and sound better with the Six Shooter. I've seen a Six Shooter personally run into a flaming apartment building with no regard for its life (or discrete FET-switched $200 volume control), and rescue 6 babies, carrying one per input.

--Andre

You are a waste of hard disk space.

:confused:

Not sure I agree. Theta's using FET switches and much more high-end Nichon caps at the back end of the dac boards. Volume control in the Theta is about 200.00 likely in parts. In the Halcro, about 12.00 or so, cheap op amps.

I donot know about Halcro, but vol control/switches used in Theta CB2 were above average quality (I had owned one) and I do recall Charles Hansen had mentioned that Ayre K5 pre uses similar parts- but this was inferior to Ayre's top of line K1x pre. Anyway a $10K pre-pro (Meridian or Theta) is no match for 2 channel preamp. I think that discussion is moot point-IMHO.

Bulldogger- volume control is one thing, processing signal is another esp for HT. A superior vol control with poorly processed signal MAY sound worse than okie volume control with good sonic processing. You cannot make a statement that volume control is it for HT. I am afraid your post is quite the opposite of your signature ;)

Cheers,
Kishore

You are a waste of hard disk space.

I swear the joke was funnier when I listened to it through a Six Shooter.

--Andre

I think flame suits work and sound better with the Six Shooter. I've seen a Six Shooter personally run into a flaming apartment building with no regard for its life (or discrete FET-switched $200 volume control), and rescue 6 babies, carrying one per input.

--Andre

You missed the part where the Cheerleader on Heroes HDTV show ran into the burning building with her Six Shooter and brought it out in perfect working order!!!:eek:

I swear the joke was funnier when I listened to it through a Six Shooter.

--Andre

Where's our favorite policeman Michael Grant to remind us all that this sort of coffeehouse banter is bringing down the forum????:) (FLAME SUIT ON!):(

Hmm. When did I ever claim that? Has it been that long since I've done full-on cut-and-paste joke sessions in this forum? Maybe it's high time I did again.

Did ya hear about the skeleton with no social life? He had no body to go out with.

THAT'S FUNNY!!! He had no body. His ground connection had been TERMINATED!!!@@

Not sure I agree. Theta's using FET switches and much more high-end Nichon caps at the back end of the dac boards. Volume control in the Theta is about 200.00 likely in parts. In the Halcro, about 12.00 or so, cheap op amps. You don't typically see the type of parts that Theta uses in pre-pros. Usually they are in two channel pre-amps that cost 5k and up before you start to see this kind of build quality. I would like to hear the Halcro but I am fairly certain that the build quality on the Theta is significantly higher. Halcro according to reports has done very well with it's parts. I really do not want to get into a Theta vs Halcro thread but my motives for sticking with Theta are also based on build quality. Take a look at my attachment for the Six Shooter. Those are almost the identical parts in the Casablanca. If anyone want to take a digital camera and take inside pics of the Halcro, I am sure you will be able to determine the difference in build quality. Flame suit on.:).

Good God!

Doesn't Theta Supply Chassis Covers?:)

Bulldogger,

I think Theta makes great gear. I have to admit my comments are the experience of a friend that had both rigs for about a month. It should also be said that this person has always been a Theta fan over everything else. His comments to me were that If you sent either unit a digital signal for listening to two-channel he actually prefered the Halcro Dacs over the Extreme DACs. For just about everything else he thought the Theta was a little better. For analog, Theta with six shooter was definately better. For Movies with a digital signal it was very close with Theta just slightly better in his opinion. They were very very close in movies. He found the results in movies odd, since he prefered Halcro DACs on Stereo. As far as the six shooter as a preamp, he liked it better than a pre/pro but it did not perform as well as his very expensive preamp. I have never heard the two head to head my self. I have owned Classe, Halo, Proceed, Arcam and others in the past and prefer the Halcro over all of those.

I still feel that cost is the biggest thing to balance between the two brands.

I grabbed one of the CEDIA dealer demos from Halcro-- the completely upgraded 100 with MPCM. Should have it by Friday. Can't wait to check it out. I was waiting for the backlog of upgrades to funnel through before doing mine, but this is certainly the easy way around that :>)

Looking forward to your posts on it...You may be the first!

Can't wait to read your review on it's preformance....Congrats.

Hello again all

As we are awaiting first hand reports of mpcm/lpcm halcro pre/pro experiences may I kindly completely off-topic ask for any recommendation of an isf calibrator in toronto canada. I also need my revel b15 sub (just got it) eq'd. I will be buying an ssp-80 if all the firsthand reports work out well (i dont need the 7 extra xlr inputs or the scaler on the ssp100 so the ssp80 is perfect for me....or maybe the 180 either way i want the upgraded lpcm obviously)

Regards,

Funky1

TAS is not exactly an authority on circuit design. The best and most innovative circuit design being done today is in integrated circuits. There have been many cases where audio people have done their discrete design by copying circuits from op-amp datasheets, and have implemented them poorly because they don't understand the environment that the IC circuits are in.

--Andre

Come on. I need my hip boots now. Those cheap op amps are clearly inferior to discreet circuits in this case. You are really reaching here. Give me some specific of examples of designers whose product are considered high-end who do this. Show me the pics of what you are using and those less than 2.00 chips.

Good God!

Doesn't Theta Supply Chassis Covers?:)

Bulldogger,

I think Theta makes great gear. I have to admit my comments are the experience of a friend that had both rigs for about a month. It should also be said that this person has always been a Theta fan over everything else. His comments to me were that If you sent either unit a digital signal for listening to two-channel he actually prefered the Halcro Dacs over the Extreme DACs. For just about everything else he thought the Theta was a little better. For analog, Theta with six shooter was definately better. For Movies with a digital signal it was very close with Theta just slightly better in his opinion. They were very very close in movies. He found the results in movies odd, since he prefered Halcro DACs on Stereo. As far as the six shooter as a preamp, he liked it better than a pre/pro but it did not perform as well as his very expensive preamp. I have never heard the two head to head my self. I have owned Classe, Halo, Proceed, Arcam and others in the past and prefer the Halcro over all of those.

I still feel that cost is the biggest thing to balance between the two brands.

There are many favorable comments from many here who appear to be knowledgeable audiophiles and unbiased. I have no doubt the Halcro is a great piece and value.

AndreLOL, that is the problem. Too many that know nothing about electronics think it is the parts that make the circuit. It isn't, it is the design.

You really have no shame here and will say anything to defend those cheap op-amps. The implemation of op-amps in these pre-pros is clearly inferior to a discreet design like used here in the Six Shooter and Theta's dac cards. The ciruit design here, from the same guy who designs the Aesthics stuff is well regarded as is the designer. To say or even imply that this designer is incompete or this discreet design in inferior to op-amps really show just how low you will go or exactly how little you know.

Bulldogger- volume control is one thing, processing signal is another esp for HT. A superior vol control with poorly processed signal MAY sound worse than okie volume control with good sonic processing. You cannot make a statement that volume control is it for HT. I am afraid your post is quite the opposite of your signature ;)

Cheers,
Kishore
NO it's not just volume control. The signal processing needs to be first rate as well and is. However the converse remains true. You can not use excellent processing and then use cheap op-amps and get superior results. My sig is fine. I would suggest you read it if you are defending the use of 2.00 parts over discreet designs using higher quality parts.

Give me some specific of examples of designers whose product are considered high-end who do this. Show me the pics of what you are using and those less than 2.00 chips.

This is my last post on this subject in this thread --- we should start a new thread if you want to continue this discussion.

The Benchmark DAC1 is a great example of a high-end, high-performance component that does this. Benchmark had no component price limit when they designed the DAC1, and how their DAC turned out is very instructive. There are plenty of examples of crappy audio pieces that used very expensive parts, so parts prices can't overcome bad design.

--Andre

NO it's not just volume control. The signal processing needs to be first rate as well and is. However the converse remains true. You can not use excellent processing and then use cheap op-amps and get superior results. My sig is fine. I would suggest you read it if you are defending the use of 2.00 parts over discreet designs using higher quality parts.

I donot know if inferior processing with superior parts makes for better sonic experience than superior processing with inferior parts. I think till you compare with your ears you cannot make a judgement on sonics and hence my reference to your signature about assumptions ;)

You should be in cable news- Perfect example of trying to put words or allude to fact that I defend use of $2.00 parts :rolleyes:. So I guess I can say you defend inferior processing :p :D ;) lol

Cheers,
Kishore

:D Touche'

This is my last post on this subject in this thread --- we should start a new thread if you want to continue this discussion.

The Benchmark DAC1 is a great example of a high-end, high-performance component that does this. Benchmark had no component price limit when they designed the DAC1, and how their DAC turned out is very instructive. There are plenty of examples of crappy audio pieces that used very expensive parts, so parts prices can't overcome bad design.

--Andre

The Benchmark DAC is a 1000.00 piece. You will see no op-amps in Emm Labs, Ayre, or the Theta Gen VIII dacs. The highest of the high-end does not use op-amps for good reason. . We can start another thread on this topic if you like. It's not worth discussing because you and I both know though you may not admit it, the most high-end dacs will not have op-amps in them for obvious reasons.

I donot know if inferior processing with superior parts makes for better sonic experience than superior processing with inferior parts. I think till you compare with your ears you cannot make a judgement on sonics and hence my reference to your signature about assumptions ;)

You should be in cable news- Perfect example of trying to put words or allude to fact that I defend use of $2.00 parts :rolleyes:. So I guess I can say you defend inferior processing :p :D ;) lol

Cheers,
Kishore

You are way off base as I prefer to compare with my ears. If you recall I compared the Meridian 861,theta Six Shooter and VTL 7.5 and older Marantz SACD player when I was in New York last summer. VTL 7.5/Marantz was best followed by Six Shooter/Marantz. Meridian 861 was third. I did not have time to shoot out the Meridian 861 vs the CBIII. I was at my fraternity brother's home and did not want to abuse his hospitality. I am not knocking the Meridian peice. I rate it and the CBIII the best two I have heard. However, when you take the pre-amp outside of all those electronics and combine with with a stand alone player, you get the best sound even for 5.1. I notice the Halcro has a new dvd player with DD PLIIx processing. How many analog outs does it have? Does anyone know?

Most high-end dacs will not have op-amps in them for obvious reasons.Be careful about pooh-poohing integrated circuits, Dogger. I'll bet if we ripped open your DAC we'll find a few---in fact the DAC chips themselves. There are very solid quality reasons why that is the case...

I thought this was a thread about halcro???


Bland, Oh Bland. where art thou?

The Theta guys have invaded so as to vicariously live through us. No HDMI from Theta until late 2008 and very possibly not in the CB3.

"You are way off base as I prefer to compare with my ears. "

Then why are you posting pictures?

Shawn

No HDMI from Theta until late 2008 and very possibly not in the CB3.
I have no intention of hijacking your tread Bland, but could you clarify?
From what i have gathered through Theta`s own website the CB3 will and can be upgraded to work with the new formats and HDMI 1.3.
As i`m considering changing my Krell showcase into something future proof (yeah right...) i Thought that there were only three safe choices: Mark Levinson No40, Meridian 861 V4 and Theta casablanca III.
I guess we know nothing sure before CES :)

The Theta guys have invaded so as to vicariously live through us. No HDMI from Theta until late 2008 and very possibly not in the CB3.

I've been laying low. You gotta problem with that? Want a little more controversy to spice things up?:cool:

You are WAY off base my friend- first you allude to cheap parts being used by Halcro

Not sure I agree. Theta's using FET switches and much more high-end Nichon caps at the back end of the dac boards. Volume control in the Theta is about 200.00 likely in parts. In the Halcro, about 12.00 or so, cheap op amps.

then you respond to my post about everything BUT halcro pre-pro in a thread about Halcro

You are way off base as I prefer to compare with my ears. If you recall I compared the Meridian 861,theta Six Shooter and VTL 7.5 and older Marantz SACD player when I was in New York last summer. VTL 7.5/Marantz was best followed by Six Shooter/Marantz. Meridian 861 was third. I did not have time to shoot out the Meridian 861 vs the CBIII. I was at my fraternity brother's home and did not want to abuse his hospitality. I am not knocking the Meridian peice. I rate it and the CBIII the best two I have heard. However, when you take the pre-amp outside of all those electronics and combine with with a stand alone player, you get the best sound even for 5.1. I notice the Halcro has a new dvd player with DD PLIIx processing. How many analog outs does it have? Does anyone know?

I donot want to argue but I shall let readers decide on who is off base.

Cheers,
Kishore

I was off base - I lived off base years ago as a USAF lawyer. HA!

The Benchmark DAC is a 1000.00 piece. You will see no op-amps in Emm Labs, Ayre, or the Theta Gen VIII dacs. The highest of the high-end does not use op-amps for good reason. . We can start another thread on this topic if you like. It's not worth discussing because you and I both know though you may not admit it, the most high-end dacs will not have op-amps in them for obvious reasons.

Bulldogger,

Let me add that aside from NOT using op-amps, the EMM Labs DAC's do not use DAC chips. Ed Meitner designed "Discreet DAC's", comprised of individual components. Therefore, no integrated circuits DAC's are used.

The Benchmark DAC is a nice entry level DAC at $1,000.00, but it isn't a "high end" piece.

Indeed! If their own marketing is to be believed---and I do believe them---they have the world's first and only discrete dual differential D-to-A circuit. It really is a tremendous achievement just to build such a thing, much less make one that is accurate. I don't know if their professional products use it.

And yet, while the emmLabs DACs have some real fans on this forum, and it has certainly sounded wonderful when I have heard it, it's not unanimously preferred.

EDIT: I do believe dCS's DACs could rightly be called discrete (though I think technically emmLabs' exact statement is true). But that's the only other example I know of or could dig up via Google.

Handcrafted technology has an inherent aesthetic appeal. Look at Jim Fosgate's all-analog tube surround processor. It is a thing of beauty and a tremendous technical achievement. Yet no one (credible) has ever claimed it is superior to every other processor--its accomplishment is in the "here's what can be done" category, not the "this sets the standard by which all others fall short" category. I'm afraid this same confusion has crept into the op amps vs. discrete circuits discussion. "Artisan" technology may meet one set of criteria--especially among an "audiophile" culture notorious for fetishizing equipment--but it doesn't mean that the end result is audibly superior.

Cheers,
Philip Brandes

Handcrafted technology has an inherent aesthetic appeal. Look at Jim Fosgate's all-analog tube surround processor. It is a thing of beauty and a tremendous technical achievement. Yet no one (credible) has ever claimed it is superior to every other processor--its accomplishment is in the "here's what can be done" category, not the "this sets the standard by which all others fall short" category. I'm afraid this same confusion has crept into the op amps vs. discrete circuits discussion. "Artisan" technology may meet one set of criteria--especially among an "audiophile" culture notorious for fetishizing equipment--but it doesn't mean that the end result is audibly superior.

Cheers,
Philip Brandes

Having once owned a Citation 7.0 surround processor, I was so looking forward to Jim Fosgate's demo of his analog tube surround processor about five years ago. It sucked big time. I was so disappointed.

Has anyone gotten their unit back from Halcro yet?

My dealer got his back on Friday. Mine went out the same day so hopefully I will get mine back soon.

Good to hear some of them are making their way back.

Mine is with Halcro right now. Hope they ship it in the next day or two.

I'll definitely be interested in hearing your opinion on the preformance of the upgrade.

That will help tie us audio addicts over until our units get back.:)

Wait minute, that might make it worse. Forget it I don't want to know.;):D

Please allow me to make a suggestion. This thread is now 28 pages long and really has been through quite a few twists and turns. I propose that the first person who is ready to comment on their experiences with their upgrade should start a *new* thread titled "Halcro LPCM upgrade reviews" or something similar, so that we can collect all of those experiences together in a new thread.

I mean, I really have enjoyed this thread overall. And I know that thread is just as likely to have off-topic diversions and twists. But at least the new thread won't start out with 28 pages of them! :)

I mean, I really have enjoyed this thread overall. And I know that thread is just as likely to have off-topic diversions and twists. But at least the new thread won't start out with 28 pages of them! :)

Really Michael, I haven't noticed this Lexicon/Theta thread going to far off-topic.;):)

I have no intention of hijacking your tread Bland, but could you clarify?
From what i have gathered through Theta`s own website the CB3 will and can be upgraded to work with the new formats and HDMI 1.3.
As i`m considering changing my Krell showcase into something future proof (yeah right...) i Thought that there were only three safe choices: Mark Levinson No40, Meridian 861 V4 and Theta casablanca III.
I guess we know nothing sure before CES :)

The CBIII will be upgraded. Two boards need to be replaced. Not sure what the time frame is. The first HDMI developement kit was not complete. A second developement tool was released a few weeks back, HDMI 1.3b I believe. That one has everything that they need. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=907414

I grabbed one of the CEDIA dealer demos from Halcro-- the completely upgraded 100 with MPCM. Should have it by Friday. Can't wait to check it out. I was waiting for the backlog of upgrades to funnel through before doing mine, but this is certainly the easy way around that :>)

There was a delay in my demo SSP100 with MPCM. Hopefully this week.

So, TheBland first mentioned the upcoming HDMI Audio upgrade a year ago (as of October 6). Apparently Halcro has been promising this for a year. Does anyone actually have it yet?

I have seen several people say they "are at the top of the list". If one signs up for the upgrade, does Halcro give any sort of ETA, when they need to send in thier unit? It sounds like Halcro isn't giving info like that out, or everyone wouldn't think they are at the top.

It appears the few on the forum are getting the upgrade.

There is a waiting list; but the turn around is 1 week unless you live in Canada.

I believe the waiting list is approx. 3 weeks at this point for anyone placing a upgrade request.

PS I have it, and there are upgraded units already shipping out.

It appears the few on the forum are getting the upgrade.

There is a waiting list; but the turn around is 1 week unless you live in Canada.

I believe the waiting list is approx. 3 weeks at this point for anyone placing a upgrade request.

PS I have it, and there are upgraded units already shipping out.

jbm, can you post your impressions on the upgrade? (or point me to a post if you've already commented)

Thanks!

Jim

My unit is finished and is being shipped back to me. I should have it tomorrow or Wed, probably won't have time to set it up until later this week.

Folks please start a new thread with your reviews!

Yes, what do you people think you are doing talking about a Halco upgrade in the Theta thread??? Don't you have any manners? :rolleyes:

^^^Funny!

I agree with Michael: it would be nice to have an actual review thread that is separate from this anticipation thread.

Sanjay

MJ where's yours?

I have given some intial comments; but since I am a dealer for Halcro and one of the beta test sites, I would rather let others chime in first so not to bias the thread with self-fulfilling comments. I can and will provide feee evaluations to anyone in Chicago if they would like.

MJ where's yours?

Funny you asked. Halcro sent mine back to our dealer so I asked him to ship it to me. I should have it by Friday if I don't get antsy and take the drive tomorrow.

Good news MJ.

You'll be locked up in the HT for the next few days for sure.:)

My upgreaded SSP100 has arrived, and Halcro once again confirmed that it does do 7.1 discrete MPCM. Once I have it set up and have time to assess it I will post a review in a new thread (just for you, Michael).

Got it set up and everything works and sounds great, except for the fact that my older Pioneer HDTV is not HDCP compliant, so no handshake and no MPCM until I upgrade my display. Live and learn. I was hoping I could do the audio and wait on the video, but now I'm in the market for a new display, considering the Pioneer KURO or the new Sony XBR5 coming later this month. So my review will have to wait. Still, happy to get my SSP100 back and enjoy the sound.

C'mon.....can't you run 480i via HDMI to the display to foil the HDCP and get the sound review up? Congrats on being #1.

"Got it set up and everything works and sounds great, except for the fact that my older Pioneer HDTV is not HDCP compliant, so no handshake and no MPCM until I upgrade my display. "

What happens with the Halcro if you unplug the display completely from its output? Will it still sync up with HDMI sources to allow you to listen to audio over the HDMI connection?

Shawn

my older Pioneer HDTV is not HDCP compliant, so no handshake and no MPCM until I upgrade my display.Can you unplug the HDMI connection to the TV or turn off the TV or even use a composite/s-video/component connection to the TV? This way, there will be no handshake issue and you'll be able to send multi-channel PCM (try a DVD-A maybe) from your player to the Halcro. can't you run 480i via HDMI to the display to foil the HDCP and get the sound review up?If you set the player to 480i or 480p, you'll only get 2-channel PCM through HDMI. In order to transmit multi-channel PCM, you need to set the video output to 720p or 1080i. Annoying, but that's HDMI for ya.

Sanjay

Sanjay,

"there will be no handshake issue and you'll be able to send multi-channel PCM (try a DVD-A maybe) from your player to the Halcro."

If the Halco is smart enough to act as a sink in that case.

"If you set the player to 480i or 480p, you'll only get 2-channel PCM through HDMI. In order to transmit multi-channel PCM, you need to set the video output to 720p or 1080i."

On 480p you might get multi-channel LPCM but the sampling rate will be limited, I think to 48kHz max. For 6 channels of 96kHz you need 720p or more to have enough bandwidth for the audio.

Shawn

Any movie soundtracks supplying 96 kHz?

Any movie soundtracks supplying 96 kHz?No. The closest I've seen on Blu-ray is concerts: e.g., 'Chris Botti Live', shot in HD video, with 5.1 channels of 96/24 sound (certainly a step up from the typical CD quality 44.1/16 PCM tracks on BD).

Sanjay

I spoke to Halcro, and apparently there is no way to run component video to my TV and use the HDMI input for sound only. I must complete the HDMI loop to the display. No wonder so many installers are avoiding HDMI altogether. Putting concern for copy protection above the consumer is costing everyone a bundle. Think how much more software we could buy if we didn't have to spend so much on new displays, pre-amps, processors, etc everytime they change the specs.

If the Halco is smart enough to act as a sink in that case.Is that always required? Philip, Andre and I were comparing video processors last year. The component chain was as follows: Oppo 970 -> MC-12HD -> DVDO VP-50 -> Panny Pro Plasma. Even with the resolution turned up, we couldn't get the Oppo to output more than 2 channels of PCM from DVD-A. So Andre decided to pack up the VP-50 and the moment he disconnected it, the Oppo immediately started transmitting 5.1 PCM to the MC-12HD. Turns out that the Plasma was handshaking 4 components back and telling the Oppo that it could only handle 2 channels of audio. So did the MC-12HD suddenly act like a sink?

Sounded like Terry's situation, hence my suggestion about turning off the TV. Worth a try to see if his player will start transmitting 5.1 to his SSP-1... er, I mean his now SSP-200. On 480p you might get multi-channel LPCM but the sampling rate will be limited, I think to 48kHz max.Which is fine, since that's as high as movie soundtracks go. In fact, I'd even be OK listening to multi-channel music that way. However, I don't know of any player that downsamples in order to accomodate lower video resolution.

Sanjay

I must complete the HDMI loop to the display.Could you try turning off the TV and see if your player starts transmitting 5.1 PCM. Shouldn't take you more than a couple of minutes.

Sanjay

"I spoke to Halcro, and apparently there is no way to run component video to my TV and use the HDMI input for sound only. I must complete the HDMI loop to the display."

That is a Halco limitation then. On the Lexicon if there is no display attached it becomes a sink and lets you use HDMI just for audio.

Shawn

Sanjay,

Don't know what was going on with the VP50 in the chain. That is weird.

"However, I don't know of any player that downsamples in order to accomodate lower video resolution. "

Panasonic S77 does for sure as I ran into this when I first started using HDMI. I can't recall what the Oppo does with this.

Shawn

"Got it set up and everything works and sounds great, except for the fact that my older Pioneer HDTV is not HDCP compliant, so no handshake and no MPCM until I upgrade my display. "

What happens with the Halcro if you unplug the display completely from its output? Will it still sync up with HDMI sources to allow you to listen to audio over the HDMI connection?

Shawn


No Handshake; no audio

Same problem occurs when using certain HDMI splitters.

Also Some Toshiba players have a very nasty HDMI sync problem with the Halcro which causes the audio not to pass thru. I am using a A20 and will have random audio problems that occur.
Its the Toshiba and not the Halcro that is causing the problem. Video is present; but no audio.

And here I thought HDMI was the Holy Grail for high def programing...............

So does a HDCP compliant display need to be turned on to get HDMI LPCM audio to the surround procesor?? Or can the display be connected to the processor, but turned OFF, and still get LPCM sound??

This HDMI stuff is strange.. Is this unique to the Halcro or HDMI/HDCP in general??

Can a video processor like the Radiance still send audio out of its second HDMI output while the first HDMI output is making the only connection to the video display.

"Also Some Toshiba players have a very nasty HDMI sync problem with the Halcro which causes the audio not to pass thru. "

Try having the Halcro already on the Toshiba's input before you fire up the Toshiba and see if that helps. That way the Toshiba should be able to pull the EDID from the Halcro when it needs it.

"Its the Toshiba and not the Halcro that is causing the problem. Video is present; but no audio."

Hard to say where the problem is. Not getting audio is usually because the player doesn't get EDID info the downstream devices saying they support audio so the player won't send it. I haven't used the A20 (just the A1) so I don't know how that one acts.

Shawn

Tried that. Tried turning of the Toshiba and pulling the plug.
Tried turning everything off, unplugging all devices, then plugging in the Halcro, turning it on, Then the Toshiba, the the Qualia 004. Even tried reversing the sequence. Funny thing is the PS 3 has never exhibited this problem; nor has the High def Comcast box. Only the Toshiba A20.



"Also Some Toshiba players have a very nasty HDMI sync problem with the Halcro which causes the audio not to pass thru. "

Try having the Halcro already on the Toshiba's input before you fire up the Toshiba and see if that helps. That way the Toshiba should be able to pull the EDID from the Halcro when it needs it.

"Its the Toshiba and not the Halcro that is causing the problem. Video is present; but no audio."

Hard to say where the problem is. Not getting audio is usually because the player doesn't get EDID info the downstream devices saying they support audio so the player won't send it. I haven't used the A20 (just the A1) so I don't know how that one acts.

Shawn

"So does a HDCP compliant display be turned on to get audio to the surround procesor?? Or can it be connected to the processor but the display turned OFF and still get sound??"

It depends upon how the surround processor handles it.

If the processor doesn't have the ability to become a sink when there is no downstream component you will not get audio over the HDMI link without a HDCP compliant display connected and active.

If the processor has the ability to become a sink when there is no downstream component then you can get audio over the HDMI link without a HDCP compliant display connected.

Shawn

So does a HDCP compliant display need to be turned on to get HDMI LPCM audio to the surround procesor?? Or can the display be connected to the processor, but turned OFF, and still get LPCM sound??

This HDMI stuff is strange.. Is this unique to the Halcro or HDMI/HDCP in general??

Can a video processor like the Radiance still send audio out of its second HDMI output while the first HDMI output is making the only connection to the video display.

In theory it should. I am waiting for updated firmware from Lumagen to veryify that it will work. There is a certain procedure that Lumagen is going to use to allow the audio output on the second HDMI connector.

I know that in the computer world evrything has to handshake to work properly; and yes that includes audio as well.

Tried that. Tried turning of the Toshiba and pulling the plug.
Tried turning everything off, unplugging all devices, then plugging in the Halcro, turning it on, Then the Toshiba, the the Qualia 004. Even tried reversing the sequence. Funny thing is the PS 3 has never exhibited this problem; nor has the High def Comcast box. Only the Toshiba A20.

Did you try completely disconnecting the Toshiba and then trying other sources (e.g. PS3)... I, too, found the Toshiba caused issues with my system and not until I removed it did I resolve things... BUt that was 2 firmware updates ago...Are you fully up to date with the Toshiba..?


Err wait (re-reading your post)....This issue is only occuring with the HD DVD player? All other sources are doing fine without a display??



We have very similar systems....Qualia, BD, HD DVD, Radiance, Halcro etc...

In theory it should. I am waiting for updated firmware from Lumagen to veryify that it will work. There is a certain procedure that Lumagen is going to use to allow the audio output on the second HDMI connector.

I know that in the computer world evrything has to handshake to work properly; and yes that includes audio as well.

LEt me know what Lumagen is doing (and how it works).

Are you posting on the Radiance forum?? If so, it would be a good thread to start as there are many Qualia owners out there that are using Lumagen..

***I suppose, if all else fails, I could run a HDMI line out of the video out of the Halcro to the (unused) DVI input on the Qualia to give the Halcro the display handshake it needs (while running the HDMI1 output from the Radiance to the HDMI in on the Qualia....

A-20 firmware 2.5

Audio is finnaly coming around on the Lumagen. This latest firmware drop has not solved all the problems; but at least audio inputs now have some functionality

"***I suppose, if all else fails, I could run a HDMI line out of the video out of the Halcro to the (unused) DVI input on the Qualia to give the Halcro the display handshake it needs (while running the HDMI1 output from the Radiance to the HDMI in on the Qualia...."

What does that accomplish?

If you are going to do that why not just run the Qualia from the output of the Halcro?

Are the DVI and HDMI inputs on the Qualia active at the same time. In most equipment they are not so your above wiring wouldn't allow the Halcro to get the handshake it needs.

Shawn

Is it just the HDDVD that causes this issue that JBM has encountered?

I spoke to Halcro, and apparently there is no way to run component video to my TV and use the HDMI input for sound only. I must complete the HDMI loop to the display. No wonder so many installers are avoiding HDMI altogether. Putting concern for copy protection above the consumer is costing everyone a bundle. Think how much more software we could buy if we didn't have to spend so much on new displays, pre-amps, processors, etc everytime they change the specs.

With my Dwin CRT, my Theta Six Shooter is lookin' better all the time!!!@@@

Not that I ever run a movie soundtrack without video but what a puzzle this is? Let's go back to analog....

To clarify:
This event only occurs with the Toshiba A20
Its is random in its events.
It only occurs if I have used another source and then go back to us the Toshiba.
We can all thank HDMI/HDCP copy protection for this.
And Steve until you have heard full blown LPCM on the Halcro; I would be careful what you wish for.

Steve.....if we were back in the stone age you'd be good.....720P, Tosh DACs, and a $4K remote control (pair of 6Shooters).....:D

Now, back to Halcro....

Not that I ever run a movie soundtrack without video but what a puzzle this is? Let's go back to analog....

After reading the last few posts that's not sound like a bad suggestion. ;):)

A-20 firmware 2.5

Audio is finnaly coming around on the Lumagen. This latest firmware drop has not solved all the problems; but at least audio inputs now have some functionality

THere is a new Radiance firmware update today that goes to HDMI audio...

Try it and let us kow how things are...

thebland;
"So does a HDCP compliant display need to be turned on to get HDMI LPCM audio to the surround procesor?? Or can the display be connected to the processor, but turned OFF, and still get LPCM sound??"


I would hope that it would still passes LPCM if the display is off...it would be a pain to fireup the projector just to listen to an SACD or DVD-A over HDMI.

RayJr

Funny thing is the PS 3 has never exhibited this problem; nor has the High def Comcast box. Only the Toshiba A20.Since the PS3 plays SACDs (converts DSD to hi-rez PCM internally), have you tried playing multi-channel SACDs without the display connected or with the display off?

The hardware is obviously capable of doing it, I'm just trying to figure out ways around the handshake.

Sanjay

Since the PS3 plays SACDs (converts DSD to hi-rez PCM internally), have you tried playing multi-channel SACDs without the display connected or with the display off?

The hardware is obviously capable of doing it, I'm just trying to figure out ways around the handshake.

Sanjay

Well you need the display on to navigate the menus.
You can select a title and play the selection. Turning off the display does not effect the sound.

I don't know if there is a automatic play function in the PS 3

Well you need the display on to navigate the menus.SACDs don't have menus (or any video content). Or did you mean navigating the PS3 menus? You can select a title and play the selection. Turning off the display does not effect the sound.So using the PS3 and a SACD, have you been able to send multi-channel PCM to the Halcro with the display off?

Sanjay

I just got mine back today from the upgrade and will be putting it through it's paces this weekend. If anyone has anything specific they want me to check out then let me know. I have a Toshiba HD-A35, PS3 and I will be trying a Oppo 970 for DVD-A and SACD through the HDMI.

I will post my results here and the thread Steve started.

SACDs don't have menus (or any video content). Or did you mean navigating the PS3 menus? So using the PS3 and a SACD, have you been able to send multi-channel PCM to the Halcro with the display off?

Sanjay

For navigating the PS 3 menus


Yes you can.

Jim

I just got mine back today from the upgrade and will be putting it through it's paces this weekend. If anyone has anything specific they want me to check out then let me know. I have a Toshiba HD-A35, PS3 and I will be trying a Oppo 970 for DVD-A and SACD through the HDMI.

I will post my results here and the thread Steve started.

I will be real curious which format you think presents the best sound.

Blu Ray or HD Dvd

I have my own opinions.
Get your hands on Casino Royale in Blu Ray format and play the last scene with the building coming down.

The sub woofer took a crap @ cedia playing that track.

Steve.....if we were back in the stone age you'd be good.....720P, Tosh DACs, and a $4K remote control (pair of 6Shooters).....:D

Now, back to Halcro....

So "Caveman" is your favorite new tv show???? How bland!

I-pods are newer technology than CD. Probably sounds the same to you, anyway.

MJ when you play the last track of Casino Royale please give me a call so that I can secure the pictures in my house because of your sub, I only live 50 miles from you for god sake

It's killing me that I am still waiting on mine...!

I will be real curious which format you think presents the best sound.

Blu Ray or HD Dvd

I have my own opinions.
Get your hands on Casino Royale in Blu Ray format and play the last scene with the building coming down.

The sub woofer took a crap @ cedia playing that track.


I don't think your hearing a difference because of the tech being used but superior sound mixing.

There's no question that the films currently being released on the Blu ray side have the superior sound mixes. A few of them won awards for their sound mixes.

Can't waiting to get my preamp back so I can shake my house with them. :)

From what I'm reading here I won't be able to employ an HDMI splitter with the new upgrade. Is this true?

Was planning to use it to bypass the preamp since it does not support 1080p24 passthru currently. PJ is a JVC RS1.

"I don't think your hearing a difference because of the tech being used but superior sound mixing."

Right, it is a case of lossless vs. lossless sound. So it comes down to the mix.

"From what I'm reading here I won't be able to employ an HDMI splitter with the new upgrade. Is this true?

Was planning to use it to bypass the preamp since it does not support 1080p24 passthru currently."

If it can't support 1080p24 a splitter won't help with that. All a splitter would do is send 1080p24 to both devices.

Something like the Radiance would be needed as a start to work around this. You could feed the Radiance 1080p24 and plug your projector into the Radiances Output 1. Then use Ouput 2 to the Halco and set Output 2 to output a blank 1080i signal with the audio. However if the Halcro needs a display plugged into its output this still wouldn't get it done. One might try plugging something like the Ophit DDA into the output of the Halcro and see if that fixes things.

The other thing is just trying to force 1080p24 into the Halcro and see what happens. It might work, it might not. It worked on the Lexicon even before the 1080p upgrade for example.

Shawn

Jeff,
Can you currently play 2 channel PCM through HDMI without an HDMI output from the Halcro to a display? My PS3 gives me a connection error if I try to set the audio output for HDMI. In other words, is this something that has changed with the MPCM upgrade or has the Halcro always required an HDMI output to an HDCP compliant display in order to complete the handshake?

Terry,

My room is in disarray during my remodel / upgrades (my Halcro / speakers / etc . are all disconnected and off line...). I'll be down another 2 weeks. Sorry I can'tr help.

Yes you can.Good. So at least there is one source that will let you transmit multi-channel PCM to the Halcro even when the display is off. Ironic that the source (SACD played on the PS3) is higher resolution than movie soundtracks.

To get a multi-channel PCM from a decoded HD DVD or Blu-ray movie soundtrack, you could try using a HDMI switcher or splitter. In order for some of these to work, it's necessary for them to behave like a HDMI sink. Placing one of these splitters after the Halcro could give the proper handshake to the player and let it transmit multi-channel PCM to the pre-pro.

Sanjay

I spoke to Halcro, and apparently there is no way to run component video to my TV and use the HDMI input for sound only. I must complete the HDMI loop to the display. No wonder so many installers are avoiding HDMI altogether. Putting concern for copy protection above the consumer is costing everyone a bundle. Think how much more software we could buy if we didn't have to spend so much on new displays, pre-amps, processors, etc everytime they change the specs.

Hmmmm. what a mess.

It is like my HD XA2 HD DVD player...If you run HDMI to the display, you can only run up to 480P out of the component outputs. When HDMI is connected, the component outs are limited to DVD quality resolution. HDMI is a PITA!!!!

FWIW, the Halcro still transcodes HDMI to component. I see this issue as only hurting those without a HDMI display...like Terry.

"I see this issue as only hurting those without a HDMI display...like Terry."

If the display accepts RGBHV the Ophit box I mentioned above solves this problem.

Shawn

If the display accepts RGBHV the Ophit box I mentioned above solves this problem.Another alternative that does the same thing is the HD Fury:

http://www.hdfury.com/

Once attached to the display via RGBHV, it should make a proper handshake with the Halcro in order to let full 1080p video and multi-channel PCM audio transmit from player to pre-pro.

Sanjay

I spoke to Halcro tech again today. He said he didn't see how the HDFury could be following the rules and be legal. He suggested getting a small HDMI HDCP compliant display. Once the PS3 gets the handshake I could turn off the display and watch through component on the Pioneer. The HDFury sounds better to me if it works.

I frankly don't think it's legal either. They basically claim that by screwing it onto your display you're making it part of the display and thus the combined unit is HDCP compliant. I think it's pretty bogus but that's the story they are sticking with. But it works, and it's available. No harm in trying one, that's for sure, at least if you can return it if it doesn't do what you want.

I don't know if the Ophit box and HD Fury are "illegal" (as in breaking some law or going beyond fair use) or simply out of spec with licensing agreements, akin to switching an Oppo DVD player to region free in order to play back imported PAL discs.

In any case, I mentioned it only for testing purposes. I would never suggest leaving it permanently in place so that Halcro owners could actually make use of the $1400 upgrade. Perish the thought.

Sanjay

That's a fair point. They are in violation of the HDCP license agreement, which is a contractual issue. And if they don't have an HDCP license in the first place they're in violation of a patent or two. So it's not really criminal, it's civil---and potentially subject to HDCP key revocation. Still don't get me wrong, I think they are completely reasonable options if you have interoperability issues like this.

I think they are completely reasonable options if you have interoperability issues like this.You mean to temporarily check if the hardware is working properly for multi-channel PCM. Of course you're not suggesting leaving it in place as a permanent hack to circumvent HDCP, right? RIGHT?

Sanjay

I frankly don't think it's legal either. They basically claim that by screwing it onto your display you're making it part of the display and thus the combined unit is HDCP compliant.

I don't think anybody is going to get in trouble for ordering one but unless these guys are licensed to do this, this really is illegal, as in do not pass go, go directly to prison illegal. Congress passed a law two or three years ago making it a serious crime to hack anything much more complex than a toaster.

I tried to find out where HD Fury came from. Didn't see an address or phone at their site. Fished around to see what country their server was in. I couldn't but did trace it to: http://ghost2.net/

Good guys don't usually fly a pirate flag.

My bet is they're really clever Chinese kids.

Yes, you're talking about the DMCA. However, there are interoperability exceptions to the DMCA that keep we end users from being criminals just for using this device in the ways we're talking about here. Whether that protection extends to the company as well I don't know, but it's moot because the patent/license issues would get them regardless. Part of me thinks, though, that the HDCP folks watch these things carefully (for example, the existence of such devices were known in the high levels of the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray consortia), and let it slide precisely because it helps we bleeding-edge types adopt their technology.

Part of me thinks, though, that the HDCP folks watch these things carefully (for example, the existence of such devices were known in the high levels of the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray consortia), and let it slide precisely because it helps we bleeding-edge types adopt their technology.That's possible. One example: the Anthem D2 lets the user switch the pre-pro from identifying itself as a HDMI repeater to identifying itself as a HDMI sink. I doubt that the HDMI consortium had such a feature in mind for dealing with HDCP handshaking problems. But that one way deal with situations like the one we're discussing or things like hi-def cable TV boxes that send HD video only to displays. In any case, its continued use either means HDMI.org are unaware of it or are turning a blind eye towards it. For better or worse, it looks like Halcro is following HDMI/HDCP licensing to the letter.

Sanjay

Not to re-hijack the thread away from the Halcro and Theata and Lexicon talk :), but what about the new Denon AVP-A1HDCI Controller that is being released now? 6 HDMI 1.3 in 2 out two surround zone support, internal decoding of all new sound formats, Realta video processingetcetc. 7k MSRP.
I know that there will be talk that Denon isn't high end blah blah blah, but from a feature standpoint, this thing has everything and then some. Will it have the best SQ? Don't know. Will it be as good or better than Halcro/Lex/Theata? Don't know. But it will do everything that has been talked about in this thread.
Thoughts?

Tried that. Tried turning of the Toshiba and pulling the plug.
Tried turning everything off, unplugging all devices, then plugging in the Halcro, turning it on, Then the Toshiba, the the Qualia 004. Even tried reversing the sequence. Funny thing is the PS 3 has never exhibited this problem; nor has the High def Comcast box. Only the Toshiba A20.

Found the culprit. I have gone thru 3 firmware upgrades within the last 2 months. I can now confirm that the Toshiba looses its settings after a firmware update. For some reason the settings will change to the system default. What that does is change the PCM settings under AUDIO/PCM/ to auto. For the Toshiba to work properly with the Halcro the settings have to PCM not auto. Not sure who to throw under the bus here yet.

But if you are using a Toshiba player; make sure you go into MENU/AUDIO/PCM and change it to PCM and not auto which is the system default. If you do a firmware upgrade you need to check your settings.

Not to re-hijack the thread away from the Halcro and Theata and Lexicon talk :), but what about the new Denon AVP-A1HDCI Controller that is being released now? 6 HDMI 1.3 in 2 out two surround zone support, internal decoding of all new sound formats, Realta video processingetcetc. 7k MSRP.
I know that there will be talk that Denon isn't high end blah blah blah, but from a feature standpoint, this thing has everything and then some. Will it have the best SQ? Don't know. Will it be as good or better than Halcro/Lex/Theata? Don't know. But it will do everything that has been talked about in this thread.
Thoughts?

Yea; start a new thread. Nothing personel; but we don't need something else for Steve to focus on here.

Sanjay,
You are correct. According to the tech at Halcro with whom I spoke, the letter of HDMI/HDCP licensing is that prepro/receivers are not sinks, so any receiver that acts as a sink is not following licensing protocols. I have ordered an HD Fury, just to test it out on a temporary basis, of course. I'll let you know how it works out.

Curious to know about the HD Fury myself....though in my own room, I would likely not have the PJ on and wish to listen to a multi channel LPCM track..... but then again, I am movies only.

"According to the tech at Halcro with whom I spoke, the letter of HDMI/HDCP licensing is that prepro/receivers are not sinks, so any receiver that acts as a sink is not following licensing protocols."

They can be a sink as long as they are the last device in the chain. IOW, nothing plugged into their HDMI output. Once something is in their output they need to be IDed as a repeater.

Pre-pros can not however claim to be a sink and have devices further down the chain.

The reason for this is to allow the 'black list' key revocation to work. For that to work the source needs to be able to see every device in the chain to see if one is black listed or not. A device that claims to be a sink (with other devices further down the chain) blocks the sources ability to check everything for a black listed device. A 'bad' device could be hidden behind a device claiming to be a sink that is actually a repeater.

Obviously, the way to avoid that potential situation is to black list the devices that improperly ID themselves as well.

Shawn

According to the tech at Halcro with whom I spoke, the letter of HDMI/HDCP licensing is that prepro/receivers are not sinks, so any receiver that acts as a sink is not following licensing protocols.I wonder if there is a provision with HDMI/HDCP for an audio-only set-up; no display, just a SACD/DVD-A player connected to a surround processor via HDMI. In such situations, the pre-pro has to act like a sink because the speakers (which should technically be the real sink) aren't going to do any handshaking. I have ordered an HD Fury, just to test it out on a temporary basis, of course.Of course.

Good Luck,
Sanjay

Sanjay,

"I wonder if there is a provision with HDMI/HDCP for an audio-only set-up; no display, just a SACD/DVD-A player connected to a surround processor via HDMI."

Not sure there can be. Audio can't pass over HDMI without video to carry it.

Shawn

Yea; start a new thread. Nothing personel; but we don't need something else for Steve to focus on here.

No problem.

I wonder if there is a provision with HDMI/HDCP for an audio-only set-up; no display, just a SACD/DVD-A player connected to a surround processor via HDMI. In such situations, the pre-pro has to act like a sink because the speakers (which should technically be the real sink) aren't going to do any handshaking. Of course.

Good Luck,
Sanjay

If you used the 2 nd HDMI output from the new Lumagen Scaler which is providing a blanking signal carrier; you probably could send a PS 3 signal to the lumagen, and output the signal on the second HDMI connection to the Halcro and play SACD s that way with out using the projector.

Not sure there can be. Audio can't pass over HDMI without video to carry it.For SACD, I think most players generate some sort of OSD menu with track listings, time, etc. DVD-A at least has video (even if it's a still image) going all the time.

Sanjay

We are all the reports???

I think Terry is likely waiting to work out his HDMI issues first.

Yes, if you've read my posts, you'll know I haven't been able to check out the MPCM because I don't have an HDCP HDMI compliant display to complete the handshake. I've ordered the HD Fury, but haven't received it yet- if that works I should be able to finally give a report. Other than the MPCM, which I've been unable to test, it sounds great and is working fine; in fact it sounds even better than I remember (more dynamic and detailed). Whether it's a trick of auditory memory or related to the upgrade to SSP 200 status (mine was one of the earlier units) is difficult to say, but if MPCM is as much of an improvement as Halcro says, I will be blown away.

if MPCM is as much of an improvement as Halcro says, I will be blown awayCareful not to create unrealistic expectations. The multi-channel PCM you'll hear on hi-def movies will more-often-than-not be 16-bit/48kHz (like the aforementioned 'Casino Royale'). So if you're typically blown away by standard CD quality/resolution, then get ready to have your socks knocked off. But if you've gotten used to DVD-A over the last 7-8 years, which is usually 24-bit/96kHz (sometimes 24/192) resolution, then don't expect 16/48 PCM to be all that and a bag of chips. At the very least it will be an improvement over lossy DD and DTS, which is all we've had for movies until now.

Sanjay

Has someone made a review of the HDMI board upgrade somewhere in this thread ?

Every once in a while I still slap a laserdisc onto my Theta Voyager, and am always impressed by how much better they sound than DVD. So I'm looking forward to at least that sound quality from MPCM.

One of the members who is a Halcro dealer posted a not in depth review (more of an impression). When I can post a fuller review, I will do so in a new thread.

Every once in a while I still slap a laserdisc onto my Theta Voyager, and am always impressed by how much better they sound than DVD. So I'm looking forward to at least that sound quality from MPCM.Laserdiscs are matrixed 2-channel PCM at CD quality/resolution (16-bit/44.1kHz), a bit of a step down from 2-channel PCM on DVDs (24-bit/48kHz). But if that's what you're expecting from MPCM, then you won't be let down. The biggest difference will be hearing those PCM soundtracks in discrete multi-channel rather than laserdisc's matrix surround.

Sanjay

Every once in a while I still slap a laserdisc onto my Theta Voyager, and am always impressed by how much better they sound than DVD. So I'm looking forward to at least that sound quality from MPCM.

wow. still doing LDs huh? cool.

still doing LDs huh?He's not alone. My CLD-99 continues to get a workout every so often. I still have titles that I haven't re-purchased on DVD and/or are not available on DVD. And modern surround processing (PLIIx, LOGIC7) does wonders on those lossless 2-channel PCM tracks, certainly compared to old Pro Logic.

Sanjay

Laserdiscs are matrixed 2-channel PCM at CD quality/resolution (16-bit/44.1kHz), a bit of a step down from 2-channel PCM on DVDs (24-bit/48kHz). But if that's what you're expecting from MPCM, then you won't be let down. The biggest difference will be hearing those PCM soundtracks in discrete multi-channel rather than laserdisc's matrix surround.

Sanjay

That wouldn't be true of DTS on LDs, would it? I recall that DTS on LD sounded significantly better than when I heard it on DVD. I seem to recall that there was some change to DTS when the switch from LD to DVD was made.

Nick :cool:

That wouldn't be true of DTS on LDs, would it?It wouldn't. DTS was carried on LD at 1.5Mbps, compared to half that rate on DVDs. Those titles were also released at a time when DTS was doing the encoding rather than the studios, allowing the soundtracks to be sweetened a bit (slightly boosted LFE and surrounds). Regardless, the few titles released sounded spectacular. I still hold three of my DTS laserdiscs as reference: 'Crimson Tide', 'Hard Target' and 'Casper'. That last one is an absolutely stunning mix, irrespective of compression codec used. I seem to recall that there was some change to DTS when the switch from LD to DVD was made.Sampling rate changed from 44.1kHz to 48kHz. Don't know what else was changed.

Sanjay

wow. still doing LDs huh? cool.

We're still playing some LD's on our Theta Data III. Doesn't sound half bad DA'ed by Extreme cards.

I thought I was the only one with a Theta III still sitting here in a box. Still have the Gen V DA converter as well. Don't use them any more but figured one day my kids might use them. yea right .........

I thought I was the only one with a Theta III still sitting here in a box. Still have the Gen V DA converter as well. Don't use them any more but figured one day my kids might use them. yea right .........

The Data III was a Class A CD transport in it's time. That was the reason it was originally designed. It just so happened it was also about the best LD player as well. Well worth keeping if you have an LD collectioin.

I will be real curious which format you think presents the best sound.

Blu Ray or HD Dvd

I have my own opinions.
Get your hands on Casino Royale in Blu Ray format and play the last scene with the building coming down.

The sub woofer took a crap @ cedia playing that track.

I did have some software glitches with mine as far as the levels settings and a couple of other quirks. Halcro dropped off a loaner with the upgrade and took mine to correct the quirks.

I have to say the uncompressed PCM tracks from Blu-ray does sound better than Dolby TruHD tracks. I am thinking this is your thoughts as well JBM. The PS3 I am using for Blu-ray sounds louder than any other player I have even with DVD so I am wondering if this could be the case.

I have only had the chance to hear the uncompressed PCM tracks from Stealth, UltraViolet, DejaVu and the remastered Fifth Element all on Blu-ray. Some of these tracks can be scary as they can sound so dynamic you fear for your speakers and sub. I actually listen at a lower volume do to fear.
It is definitely more dynamic and louder without sounding strained at all.
I hope anyone who gets the upgrade has the speakers, amps and subs to handle the dynamics as they can be system threatening.

I normally run my sub a little hot for movies but have had to turn it back. It is not distorting but it has too much of a jump factor when played at my normal levels.

I have to give it some more time and will actually put it through the ringer when I get mine back.

I did have some software glitches with mine as far as the levels settings and a couple of other quirks. Halcro dropped off a loaner with the upgrade and took mine to correct the quirks.

I have to say the uncompressed PCM tracks from Blu-ray does sound better than Dolby TruHD tracks. I am thinking this is your thoughts as well JBM. The PS3 I am using for Blu-ray sounds louder than any other player I have even with DVD so I am wondering if this could be the case.

I have only had the chance to hear the uncompressed PCM tracks from Stealth, UltraViolet, DejaVu and the remastered Fifth Element all on Blu-ray. Some of these tracks can be scary as they can sound so dynamic you fear for your speakers and sub. I actually listen at a lower volume do to fear.
It is definitely more dynamic and louder without sounding strained at all.
I hope anyone who gets the upgrade has the speakers, amps and subs to handle the dynamics as they can be system threatening.

I normally run my sub a little hot for movies but have had to turn it back. It is not distorting but it has too much of a jump factor when played at my normal levels.

I have to give it some more time and will actually put it through the ringer when I get mine back.


Your right. I prefer Blu Ray at the moment. I also have noticed that the voices sound better placed and more natural in relation to the sound track.
I think you are realizing a increased sound presence which gives you a better sonic impression of "being there"

Using matching self powered ATC 20 creates a incredible sound stage.
"Sorry Dan we agree to disagree."


Check out "Black Hawk Down"
Nothing like hearing the helicopter rotors creating the circle rotating sound field.

I got word today that mine will soon be on its way. :)

I signed up for the HDMI Audio update on Sept 8th. After 6 weeks of asking where I sit in the queue, I finally got a reply. I still have 3 more months to wait for the upgrade.

What The F#$#????

I was pissed enough not getting replies for 6 weeks. Now, to find out that I have at least 3 more months to wait, I'm considering selling this thing. Its time to get off this Halcro lie and wait ride. Knowing how Halcro tells time, 3 months may be 6-9 months in reality.

For those that signed up for the upgrade after Sept 8th, be ready for a long wait....

So, what is the best Prepro under $10K, out there for folks with 2 high res sources?

I got word today that mine will soon be on its way. :)

Congrats Jeff

Definitely want to know what you think after you put it through it's paces.

Still waiting for mine to come back home from the Halcro mother ship.:(

So, what is the best Prepro under $10K, out there for folks with 2 high res sources?

See other threads. This is a Halcro thread. HA!@@@

Why don't you start your own thread asking this question. list your components and speakers and sources.

Be nice Steve or I'll buy a Theta just to piss you off. :eek:

I signed up for the HDMI Audio update on Sept 8th. After 6 weeks of asking where I sit in the queue, I finally got a reply. I still have 3 more months to wait for the upgrade.

What The F#$#????

I was pissed enough not getting replies for 6 weeks. Now, to find out that I have at least 3 more months to wait, I'm considering selling this thing. Its time to get off this Halcro lie and wait ride. Knowing how Halcro tells time, 3 months may be 6-9 months in reality.

For those that signed up for the upgrade after Sept 8th, be ready for a long wait....

So, what is the best Prepro under $10K, out there for folks with 2 high res sources?

There's really only two choices currently with HDMI audio processing. Lexicon and Anthem. You'll have to find a good deal on the Lex to meet your budget requirements though. Primare is supposed to have an HDMI 1.3 prepro out by the end of the year for $6K and Parasound Halo is also planning an HDMI prepro for Summer 2008 probably under $6k. Your last option would be to wait for the add-on HDMI box that goes with the Cary Cinema 11 ($6K for the pair). PM me if you want to go with the Lex, as I have a lead on a NIB MC12HD at a used price.

I have two questions. One is the SSP-200 out and available and two can someone pm me some dealers I cannot find them on there website anywhere.

I have two questions. One is the SSP-200 out and available and two can someone pm me some dealers I cannot find them on there website anywhere.

Sure, I sent you a PM.

Thanks for the info Hifi. After the Halcro ordeal, I am only looking at products that are ready now.

The Lex meets the specs. As long as thier customer service is reasonable, they are worth a look. I am very tired of trying to pry the most basic of info out of Halcro.

Finding out what is in a firmware upgrade, or when you unit will be fixed (after it has been in the shop for 3 weeks already), etc, is like trying to ask the CIA about a Black Ops mission. :cool:

I'll PM you about the Lex so we don't derail things here.

Darrell


There's really only two choices currently with HDMI audio processing. Lexicon and Anthem. You'll have to find a good deal on the Lex to meet your budget requirements though. Primare is supposed to have an HDMI 1.3 prepro out by the end of the year for $6K and Parasound Halo is also planning an HDMI prepro for Summer 2008 probably under $6k. Your last option would be to wait for the add-on HDMI box that goes with the Cary Cinema 11 ($6K for the pair). PM me if you want to go with the Lex, as I have a lead on a NIB MC12HD at a used price.

There is a Halcro SSP100 on audiogon for $4K. That is a very low price. I actually purchased a Lexicon MC-12HD. My Halcro is still away being upgraded. I got a good deal on a MC-12 with the mic kit and balanced. There is no doubt the Lexicon is a great unit. I am only now discovering all the things this unit can do. Will report more later.

There is a Halcro SSP100 on audiogon for $4K. That is a very low price. I actually purchased a Lexicon MC-12HD. My Halcro is still away being upgraded. I got a good deal on a MC-12 with the mic kit and balanced. There is no doubt the Lexicon is a great unit. I am only now discovering all the things this unit can do. Will report more later.

Shawn -

Did you snag one of the lightly used units off of A-gon for $7800 from that guy that was selling two of them?

- Tim

I did actually, I even went to Boston from florida to meet the guy. He was fantastic..:)

Shawn..:)

Actually got a deal better than the $7800.00 and it was perfect. Brand new unopend mic kit and this thing is flawless.

Coyoteshawn,
If you have any Lex MC12 questions....just ask...I may be able to help.

RayJr

I did actually, I even went to Boston from florida to meet the guy. He was fantastic..:)

Shawn..:)

Actually got a deal better than the $7800.00 and it was perfect. Brand new unopend mic kit and this thing is flawless.

Wow, small world. I tried to get one of those, but he told me the guy buying it (that would be you) was doing a local pick-up with a cashier's check.

You bastard! :D

What did you end up paying for it?

There is a Halcro SSP100 on audiogon for $4K. That is a very low price......

I looked up that listing on audiogon. Buyer beware (maybe). The person has no feedback (he just joined as a commercial user), understated the retail price by about $4k, and understated the unit's weight by about 30 lbs.

Thanks, I really appreciate that.:) I think its going to be pretty sweet. I have an SSP100 away getting the LPCM upgrade but I had a chance to finally hear a MC12 room corrected system and the user interface, options and incredible sound just blew me away. I am going to run this unit through the paces to see which one stays and which one goes I think. I admit the Halcro sounds great, but I have some issues and it seems I am not alone. Thanks again..:)

Enjoy the new purchase...I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
I say this cause, I demoed the Halcro unit before buying the Lexicon....and found the Lexicon to fit my needs the best.

RayJr

I just talked to the guy with the Halcro amp and SSP100 and he did list them wrong. He is a legit company in denver and listed with the BBB. Also he takes credit cards and has a confirmable physical address. I always pay by credit card and check the folks out. Now thats as far as I can gather. He has an office number I called and a cell. The AMP is 3K which is a great deal. He seems up to date on the unit, I suppose it could be a bad deal but Chase Cards will protect me for the most part. I will investigate futher...:)

By the way, that is a sweet setup you have. I will post pics of my setup very soon. I actually use my loft for a home theater so the auto EQ and such I think will be great. I have the MC12HD connected to a JVC 70" DILA 1080P (LCOS) monitor, (2) Bel Canto Ref 1000 amplifiers, (3) M300 amps for center, and rear as this is a 5.1 setup and all Martin Logan speakers. I also have the standard array of Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players (Toshiba A20) and (Panasonic BMP-10U) as well as an integra DPS 10.5 universal player. It does me just great...:)

Shawn,

Based on unscientific comparisions, which do you think sounds better, the SSP100 or the MC12?

Darrell

Thanks, I really appreciate that.:) I think its going to be pretty sweet. I have an SSP100 away getting the LPCM upgrade but I had a chance to finally hear a MC12 room corrected system and the user interface, options and incredible sound just blew me away. I am going to run this unit through the paces to see which one stays and which one goes I think. I admit the Halcro sounds great, but I have some issues and it seems I am not alone. Thanks again..:)

Shawn,

Based on unscientific comparisions, which do you think sounds better, the SSP100 or the MC12?

Darrell


Why don't you take your ears to a dealer and compare each unit.
SSP100 and MC 12 comparisons are like asking someone which peach is riper. It all boils down to taste and money; your taste not some elses and your money.

JBM,

I have a SSP100, but there are no Lexicon dealers within a few hundred miles of me. Therfore, having the opinion of someone that has both units is better than no input at all.

Darrell

JBM,

I have a SSP100, but there are no Lexicon dealers within a few hundred miles of me. Therfore, having the opinion of someone that has both units is better than input at all.

Darrell

Gotcha.

Do you have a wife? If so; Tell here you will buy here something special and you have to drive along way to get it. <grin>

I am going to set them up side by side and see what I prefer. I can say I think the Lexicon is built better. Much more solid and heavier by far.

Coyote -

Take a look at post 935, I think you'll find it amusing.

- Tim

LOL, that is very funny...:) I am sorry about that. I just thought it was a good deal and the guy was such a ease to deal with that I had to give the unit a try. So far the unit is wonderful. I will keep an eye out for another one for you..;)

LOL, that is very funny...:) I am sorry about that. I just thought it was a good deal and the guy was such a ease to deal with that I had to give the unit a try. So far the unit is wonderful. I will keep an eye out for another one for you..;)

Yeah, what are the chances that we would meet? Odd, very odd.

That seller is a very nice guy, and in fact he referred me to his friend who also had the same unit for sale. Turns out his friend works for Lexicon and he had an open-box unused MC12HD. It sounds like I paid a little more than you for it, but I didn't want to take the chance of losing the deal again. I paid $7800 for the MC12HD + mic kit. What'd you pay? Around $7500?

I don't know if you know this, but apparently, even though Lexicon's web site says that the warranty is transferrable, it no longer is *unless* you buy it used from a dealer. I checked directly with Lexicon's customer service on this.

BTW fellow Lex owners, why isn't there an "owners thread" for us? If there is, I certainly haven't been able to find it. I'm sure the boys that started this thread would like us out of it.

I used to own a MC 12B.....! But I really dig the sound of my Halcro...

But c'mon...guys...This is a Halcro thread!!!!:)

TheBland/All,

Of course the big Halcro topic is the HDMI Audio upgrade, but we have heard very few reports here.

It seems like we hear about 1 report a week. I think I have heard ~5 reports so far, and one of the upgrades was messed up and the person had to get a replcement from Halcro.

Can more of the people that received the upgrade, report back? I hope more are being done than what we are hearing about.

I did get this info from Halcro though. I let you do your own interpretation.

We are performing the upgrades as quickly as possible, but orders currently exceed the factory’s ability to produce upgrade kits.

Darrell

I am going to set them up side by side and see what I prefer. I can say I think the Lexicon is built better. Much more solid and heavier by far.

I think I am going to have the factory make the front plate out of 1/2" steel to compete with the Lexicon. <grin>

.....and make it black to really piss us off...:D

.....and make it black to really piss us off...:D

Agreed.. I was pissed off no black option. :D

I just talked to the guy with the Halcro amp and SSP100 and he did list them wrong. He is a legit company in denver and listed with the BBB. Also he takes credit cards and has a confirmable physical address. I always pay by credit card and check the folks out. Now thats as far as I can gather. He has an office number I called and a cell. The AMP is 3K which is a great deal. He seems up to date on the unit, I suppose it could be a bad deal but Chase Cards will protect me for the most part. I will investigate futher...:)

If that's the case, he should correct the listing, now that you brought it to his attention......not sure why he hasn't done that. Coyote, Is he an authorized dealer?

BTW fellow Lex owners, why isn't there an "owners thread" for us?Threads are usually driven by problems, in which case there wouldn't be much to discuss. When the MC-12HD was released, it worked as spec'd. When the free 1080p upgrade was recently issued, it worked as spec'd. Stuff like that doesn't make for a very interesting thread.

When you and/or coyoteshawn get your units set up, it would be a good idea to start a separate thread or post in the official Lex forum at SMR if you guys have any questions.

Sanjay

Threads are usually driven by problems, in which case there wouldn't be much to discuss.

My MC-12 is too large and heavy, and doesn't fit in my car. I feel like I should start a thread about that.

--Andre

My MC-12 is too large and heavy, and doesn't fit in my car. I feel like I should start a thread about that.

--Andre

You brute! Forcing it in when you know it doesn't fit.:D

When you and/or coyoteshawn get your units set up, it would be a good idea to start a separate thread or post in the official Lex forum at SMR if you guys have any questions.


Would that be www.smr-forums.com?

Threads are usually driven by problems, in which case there wouldn't be much to discuss. When the MC-12HD was released, it worked as spec'd. When the free 1080p upgrade was recently issued, it worked as spec'd. Stuff like that doesn't make for a very interesting thread.

When you and/or coyoteshawn get your units set up, it would be a good idea to start a separate thread or post in the official Lex forum at SMR if you guys have any questions.

Sanjay

I completely agree that most threads are dominated by problems, but I still think that a Lexicon owners thread (for all Lexicon gear, not just the MC12) would do well and is needed here, not just on SMR. There is considerabley more traffic through this forum and it would be a good way for those considering Lexicon products to see what owners experiences are. Besides the Logic 7 mode is so tweakable that I'm sure we could fill at least a few pages sharing configurations and settings. And the rest could be filled with talk about the cables and power cords that provide the most "liquid, transcendental midrange qualities." :D

I think I'll start a thread once I get my MC12HD. Please feel free to share any information or experiences you have that might help other owners or potential owners. It doesn't need to be a fanboy thread, but I'm sure others would be interested in hearing any positive experiences you've had.

You brute! Forcing it in when you know it doesn't fit.:D

Sheesh, you sound like my wife...

Chirpie is right. I've heard his wife say that several times... :D

Sorry Bland, I have a Halcro SSP-100 as well. I do think very few units compete on the level of the Halcro, and the Lexicon is one of those units. I think its important for people to understand what the Halcro is as well as the Lexicon. I know this sounds awful to say, but the Lexicon worked right out of the box and so far (Only five days) not so much as a hicup. Full 1080P, LPCM over HDMI (5.1 only), and no issues with any of my HDMI sources. When the Halcro returns I will hopefully be singing some Halcro praise. I think it might be unfair to compare the MC-12HD because they have had several years to make it great. Anyways, I will do my best to stick to the Halcro topic. As far as a MC-12HD thread? They are right, not much to discuss except maybe the room correction or EQ settings and hints that may help. Not many issues I see so far. By the way, Harmon International will overlook the warranty issue on most things related to the MC-12HD, so if you have a issue call them anyways. I too know someone at Harmon...:) So far they are a great company!!!

The West Coast Halcro rep Bruce was just at my house today. Good thing he didn't stay any longer or my head would have exploded from the sound!!!

Turns out I was having a HDCP sync problem with my upgraded SSP-100 but he brought over a replacement and problem gone. Unbelievable how great the service was and now my system sounds so good I can't imagine anything better. I will say it will be hard to go back to regular Dolby Digital and DTS tracks after hearing what uncompressed PCM can do.

We first listened to Stealth in regular Dolby Digital and it did sound just as good as I remembered. He then lowered the volume on the Halcro by 7 and selected the Uncompressed PCM track and WOW!!! Everything is so much more dynamic that I actually clutched the arm rests on my seat as it was like an amusement ride. The scene from Casino Royale were the building fell actually had me nervous as I never heard my sub respond like it did. Everything was shaking, it was loud but it sounded so clear and the dialog came through so clearly. We listened to some music as well as some test discs and it was a very impressive demo to say the least.

I have to admit to being a little upset at the wait for the upgrade and the HDCP problem but Halcro really came through for me. From what I heard my problem was isolated but there quick attention to that problem really impressed me. I have to really thank Bruce and Gary from Halcro for the prompt and excellent service as well as my dealer Myron who made sure all went well.

I planned on starting a new thread for this review but will have to wait until this weekend or later as it is getting late. This will give me more time to listen to the upgrade and report back on any new findings.

Anyone who has the upgrade or just went out and got a new SSP-200 or 180 have fun.

Mike

One last thing, I did confirm that the Halcro accepts LPCM 7.1 and included a photo of the PS3's automatic detection. You have to have your speakers set up to 7.1 to get the 7.1 LPCM from the PS3. If you have your Halcro set-up for a 5.1 channel system then the PS3 only detects LPCM 5.1.

I know there are a couple of 7.1 PCM Blu-ray's out there but I don't know which they are. If someone could pass on the info I would appreciate it.

I think it might be unfair to compare the MC-12HD because they have had several years to make it great.I think the timeline is the other way 'round. The MC-12HD has only been out for a year (handling of HDMI audio hasn't changed since release). Hasn't the SSP-100 been out for a couple years now (Sept 2005)?

Sanjay

The West Coast Halcro rep Bruce was just at my house today. Good thing he didn't stay any longer or my head would have exploded from the sound!!!

Turns out I was having a HDCP sync problem with my upgraded SSP-100 but he brought over a replacement and problem gone. Unbelievable how great the service was and now my system sounds so good I can't imagine anything better. I will say it will be hard to go back to regular Dolby Digital and DTS tracks after hearing what uncompressed PCM can do.

We first listened to Stealth in regular Dolby Digital and it did sound just as good as I remembered. He then lowered the volume on the Halcro by 7 and selected the Uncompressed PCM track and WOW!!! Everything is so much more dynamic that I actually clutched the arm rests on my seat as it was like an amusement ride. The scene from Casino Royale were the building fell actually had me nervous as I never heard my sub respond like it did. Everything was shaking, it was loud but it sounded so clear and the dialog came through so clearly. We listened to some music as well as some test discs and it was a very impressive demo to say the least.

I have to admit to being a little upset at the wait for the upgrade and the HDCP problem but Halcro really came through for me. From what I heard my problem was isolated but there quick attention to that problem really impressed me. I have to really thank Bruce and Gary from Halcro for the prompt and excellent service as well as my dealer Myron who made sure all went well.

I planned on starting a new thread for this review but will have to wait until this weekend or later as it is getting late. This will give me more time to listen to the upgrade and report back on any new findings.

Anyone who has the upgrade or just went out and got a new SSP-200 or 180 have fun.

Mike


Mine can't get here fast enough... Good to hear it kicks ass.

The West Coast Halcro rep Bruce was just at my house today. Good thing he didn't stay any longer or my head would have exploded from the sound!!!

Turns out I was having a HDCP sync problem with my upgraded SSP-100 but he brought over a replacement and problem gone. Unbelievable how great the service was and now my system sounds so good I can't imagine anything better. I will say it will be hard to go back to regular Dolby Digital and DTS tracks after hearing what uncompressed PCM can do.

We first listened to Stealth in regular Dolby Digital and it did sound just as good as I remembered. He then lowered the volume on the Halcro by 7 and selected the Uncompressed PCM track and WOW!!! Everything is so much more dynamic that I actually clutched the arm rests on my seat as it was like an amusement ride. The scene from Casino Royale were the building fell actually had me nervous as I never heard my sub respond like it did. Everything was shaking, it was loud but it sounded so clear and the dialog came through so clearly. We listened to some music as well as some test discs and it was a very impressive demo to say the least.

I have to admit to being a little upset at the wait for the upgrade and the HDCP problem but Halcro really came through for me. From what I heard my problem was isolated but there quick attention to that problem really impressed me. I have to really thank Bruce and Gary from Halcro for the prompt and excellent service as well as my dealer Myron who made sure all went well.

I planned on starting a new thread for this review but will have to wait until this weekend or later as it is getting late. This will give me more time to listen to the upgrade and report back on any new findings.

Anyone who has the upgrade or just went out and got a new SSP-200 or 180 have fun.

Mike

This is great news, as you've confirmed that with HDMI your sonics are appreciably better thanks to higher resolution audio - than using DVD with the lower resolution audio[ and your HDMI handshake problems so far are gone.

No, I don't plan to say bye bye to my beloved Theta CB3 and Six Shooter.
Even allowing for now my Toshiba HD XA1 HD DVD player to decode with analog out to my Six Shooter, yes my high resolution sonics are also appreciably better than lower resolution DVD. But it makes me salivate more for when Theta does complete the HDMI multi-channel audio upgrade,although I anticipate its a good year off, possibly more.
It gives me hope that since HDMI sounds so good for you, that for Theta it will result in some additional sonic improvement over the great high resolution sound that I already have.

Good to hear that Halcro is following up, to try and give there customers satisfaction.

RayJr

MJAudio

That Halcro rep Bruce; pretty squirrely character wasn't he.
Have you counted all your Blu ray disk to make sure nothings missing? <grin>

PS: Glad you like to sound.

All right : Show of hands

How many forum members have purchased the upgrade??

Maybe we can shame Steve, and move him to the dark side.

MJAudio

That Halcro rep Bruce; pretty squirrely character wasn't he.
Have you counted all your Blu ray disk to make sure nothings missing? <grin>

I did do a count but now I am worried that I didn't open the cases to confirm that the discs are actually there:rolleyes:

Oh well, for the sound it may be worth a couple of Blu's going missing.

This is great news, as you've confirmed that with HDMI your sonics are appreciably better thanks to higher resolution audio - than using DVD with the lower resolution audio[ and your HDMI handshake problems so far are gone.

No, I don't plan to say bye bye to my beloved Theta CB3 and Six Shooter.
Even allowing for now my Toshiba HD XA1 HD DVD player to decode with analog out to my Six Shooter, yes my high resolution sonics are also appreciably better than lower resolution DVD. But it makes me salivate more for when Theta does complete the HDMI multi-channel audio upgrade,although I anticipate its a good year off, possibly more.
It gives me hope that since HDMI sounds so good for you, that for Theta it will result in some additional sonic improvement over the great high resolution sound that I already have.

You may want to try a Blu-ray player with analog outs into your Six Shooter. Tru-HD sounds good but uncompressed PCM sounds a lot better from what I have tried so far. Stealth and Casino Royale are stellar sound mixes and every disc I have tried so far with a uncompressed PCM track sounds significantly better than the DD mix.

HD DVD I prefer for picture quality but Blu-ray is now winning the battle for sound in my system. The PS3 is a great machine for Blu-ray as well and I can't wait for the DTS-HD MA firmware upgrade so I can trully hear those Fox titles. Unfortunately the PS3 does not have analog outs, only HDMI.

I would definately be interested in hearing what you think about the uncompressed PCM from Blu-ray through your Six shooter.

I was told to listen to the Fifth Element remastered Blu-ray which includes both Tru-HD and uncompressed PCM and the difference could be heard there as well.

Tru-HD sounds good but uncompressed PCM sounds a lot better from what I have tried so far.Since TrueHD is bit for bit identical to PCM, what do you think is making one sound "a lot better" than the other? Was your comparison volume matched?

Sanjay

I would like to know also why uncompressed lpcm would sound better.

Cant wait either for the dts-ma upgrade. All these bits sitting there and i cannot do anything with them. Reminds me of the first hybrid sacd i had.

Steeve :There's no garantee that the hdmi upgrade on the CB3 would sound significantly better than the SS. I had it once and it sounded better than the anthem D2 with hdmi. I used the toshiba hd-a1.

Anthem D2 is not that dynamic thought on anything :rolleyes: that's why i'm watching this thread closely.

Does the halcro ssp-100 has some sort of overlay controls with the scaler ? i find that feature really helpfull since there isnt any of these controls on the PS-3/hd-a1/HD STB.

Good to hear. I'm a CB3 owner currently using an Anthem D2 to tide me over until Theta delivers, but it's good to know that if I really get tired of this noisy preamp (and don't want to wait), there is something else available with HDMI.

Good to hear. I'm a CB3 owner currently using an Anthem D2 to tide me over until Theta delivers, but it's good to know that if I really get tired of this noisy preamp (and don't want to wait), there is something else available with HDMI.

Yup, exactly my observations : the background is very noisy with the D2. The extreme dacs do have a black background.

SSP-100 would be a good alternative since it has great SQ and a scaler. I dont want to use a seperate scaler. All in one solution is my goal.

I know there are a couple of 7.1 PCM Blu-ray's out there but I don't know which they are. If someone could pass on the info I would appreciate it.

Most of the stuff marked 7.1 is really 6.1 from what I can tell. I have a Panasonic Blu-ray player and am running 7.1 via two Theta Six Shooters copntrolled by a Theta Casablanca. Check out this list and scan for the 7.1 titles. The extra channel at the rear are higher-rez and kicks ass even though it is really only 6.1. With the 7.1 channels at higher resolution you really get a sense of envelopement that you just can't get from using a matrixed mode like DD PLL IIx. You're gonna love it! http://mysite.verizon.net/ruvic/bluray-full.htm I picked up the Ultimate Avengers Collection and Dr. Strange at my local Best Buy just to see how it would sound.

I would definately be interested in hearing what you think about the uncompressed PCM from Blu-ray through your Six shooter.

I will try comparing them on the same disk via the Panasonic Blu-ray player with my Six Shooters. When I use the Toshiba A-1 HD-DVD player with Dolby True-HD, to my ears it outperforms the Panasonic. That's not apples to apples because I think the Toshiba player sounds better even with CD's compared to the Panasonic playing CD's. Panasonic sounds muffled compared to the Toshiba via the Six Shooter in my set-up.

Since TrueHD is bit for bit identical to PCM, what do you think is making one sound "a lot better" than the other? Was your comparison volume matched?

Sanjay

After listening to about 20 HD and 25 Blu ray disk I think I can answer this question.

Blu ray LCPM sounds like playing a record; True HD sounds like playing a CD disk. HD-DVD have better picture quality on probably have the disk.

Vocals are better balanced in tone and presence,
Audio sounds seem to just leap out of nowhere and are not as overpowering or forceful as the can be on True HD. LPCM can be played louder with out the fatigue level kicking in.

This not to say True HD does not sound good; Its just like listening to a old record again instead of a CD.

I will try comparing them on the same disk via the Panasonic Blu-ray player with my Six Shooters. When I use the Toshiba A-1 HD-DVD player with Dolby True-HD, to my ears it outperforms the Panasonic. That's not apples to apples because I think the Toshiba player sounds better even with CD's compared to the Panasonic playing CD's. Panasonic sounds muffled compared to the Toshiba via the Six Shooter in my set-up.

Wait until you get to use your Halcro DACs again....then you'll see what JBM is gushing over. I, too, have found the DACs in these players inadequate.

Blu ray LCPM sounds like playing a record; True HD sounds like playing a CD disk.Thanx, that explains more than you can imagine.

Sanjay

After listening to about 20 HD and 25 Blu ray disk I think I can answer this question.

Blu ray LCPM sounds like playing a record; True HD sounds like playing a CD disk. HD-DVD have better picture quality on probably have the disk.

Vocals are better balanced in tone and presence,
Audio sounds seem to just leap out of nowhere and are not as overpowering or forceful as the can be on True HD. LPCM can be played louder with out the fatigue level kicking in.

This not to say True HD does not sound good; Its just like listening to a old record again instead of a CD.

That is a pretty good comparison and I too feel that I have seen more impressive film transfer on HD DVD than Blu-ray. I have to admit though that the re-mastered Fifth Element on Blu-ray is one of the best PQ discs I have ever seen.

I have heard that even though Dolby calls Tru-HD lossless that there is still some compression involved. I do not know if this is true but if I want to show off the Halcro I am reaching for a uncompressed PCM Blu-ray.

JBM any other soundtracks you use to show off the MPCM upgrade?

Most of the stuff marked 7.1 is really 6.1 from what I can tell. I have a Panasonic Blu-ray player and am running 7.1 via two Theta Six Shooters copntrolled by a Theta Casablanca. Check out this list and scan for the 7.1 titles. The extra channel at the rear are higher-rez and kicks ass even though it is really only 6.1. With the 7.1 channels at higher resolution you really get a sense of envelopement that you just can't get from using a matrixed mode like DD PLL IIx. You're gonna love it! http://mysite.verizon.net/ruvic/bluray-full.htm I picked up the Ultimate Avengers Collection and Dr. Strange at my local Best Buy just to see how it would sound.

Very nice list Bulldogger, thank you.

I am thinking that the difference in sound between my Toshiba HD-A35 and PS3 is probably with the players as well. The PS3 has always had more output with even DVD's. I will have to try and match the levels but even Tru-HD tracks played back loudly just lack the Wow of Blu-ray's PCM tracks. I have also noticed that only about a 1/3 or less of my HD DVD's even include a Tru-HD track which is disappointing.
Blu-ray on the other hand has is about 50/50 PCM and about half of the titles that do not include PCM have DTS HD-MA which the PS3 should support by the end of the year.

"I have heard that even though Dolby calls Tru-HD lossless that there is still some compression involved. I do not know if this is true"

It is true. It is completely possible to have compression and also be lossless. The obvious example of that is ZIP files. What goes in is exactly what comes out. There is no loss in the compression Dolby TrueHD is the same way.

Lossless compression (regular DD/DTS/MP3/etc) is different. What goes in is not what comes out.... things are lost.

Shawn

My HD Fury arrived and works. I'll be starting a new thread for Halcro MPCM reviews.

mjaudio,
There is really only one blu-ray to use to demo what truely good MPCM sound like.....its what I use with my Lexicon MC12B-HD
Chris Botti Live with Orchestra and Special Guests (http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/837/chrisbottilivewithorchestra.html) it is the ONLY Blu-ray that is PCM 5.1 Surround 96kHz/24-bit/13.8mbps.
This is a disc that is on par with the best sounding SACD's and DVD-A's I have listen to.

RayJr

mjaudio,
There is really only one blu-ray to use to demo what truely good MPCM sound like.....its what I use with my Lexicon MC12B-HD
Chris Botti Live with Orchestra and Special Guests (http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/837/chrisbottilivewithorchestra.html) it is the ONLY Blu-ray that is PCM 5.1 Surround 96kHz/24-bit/13.8mbps.
This is a disc that is on par with the best sounding SACD's and DVD-A's I have listen to.

RayJr

Thank you Ray,

That is definately a title I will have to pick up!

My HD Fury arrived and works.Yay! It's unfortunate that HDMI makes you resort to such a solution, but it is effective and relatively cheap. Enjoy your birthday weekend; looks like you've gotten one present already. Looking forward to your reviews.

Sanjay

Thanx, that explains more than you can imagine.

Sanjay

Do I smell sarcasm?

Do I smell sarcasm?I didn't want to be impolite. How would you react if someone told you that reading a word document you e-mailed them as a zipped file was not as emotionally moving as reading the original word document on your hard drive?

Sanjay

I didn't want to be impolite. How would you react if someone told you that reading a word document you e-mailed them as a zipped file was not as emotionally moving as reading the original word document on your hard drive?

Sanjay

Everyone knows that when you compress a file, it squeezes all of the life and emotion out of it. But this is something your analytical mind would surely not understand.

After switching back and forth between TrueHD and uncompressed PCM on "300" I can confirm that there is definitely a difference between the two. For one, the PCM track is several db louder. The mix is also different- more bass on the PCM track, giving it a more visceral feel. As to differences in sound quality, what there is, if any, is subtle. Both are worlds better than DD, which has always been disappointing to me on the PS3 compared to the sound quality of DVD on my Esoteric DV50S. Finally I have great sound to go with the great picture.

After switching back and forth between TrueHD and uncompressed PCM on "300" I can confirm that there is definitely a difference between the two. For one, the PCM track is several db louder. The mix is also different- more bass on the PCM track, giving it a more visceral feel. As to differences in sound quality, what there is, if any, is subtle. Both are worlds better than DD, which has always been disappointing to me on the PS3 compared to the sound quality of DVD on my Esoteric DV50S. Finally I have great sound to go with the great picture.

I can confirm that after watching Surf's Up. Its very easy to swtich back and forth between Uncompressed PCM and Dolby True HD. PCM is definitely louder at the same volume level and has more bass for some reason.

Do you find that start up volumes for various LPCM tracks are less consistent and start up levels are random??

I can confirm that after watching Surf's Up. Its very easy to swtich back and forth between Uncompressed PCM and Dolby True HD. PCM is definitely louder at the same volume level and has more bass for some reason.

This is sort of funny. Remember when plain ol DTS came out. Folks were saying it sounded better noting that it was louder at the same volume level and had more bass mixed in the LFE track.

I like DTS more in my system than DD. Still do on the same DVDs for the most part, especially music DVDs.

Now little ol PCM is doing the same to DTS HD?

Increased volume can also increase bass perception, especially so because the equiloudness curves of the human ear are tightly grouped in the bass.

In other words, when humans hear bass, a small volume increase is perceived as a disproportionally larger loudness increase.

--Andre

Increased volume can also increase bass perception, especially so because the equiloudness curves of the human ear are tightly grouped in the bass.

In other words, when humans hear bass, a small volume increase is perceived as a disproportionally larger loudness increase.

--Andre

I agree -- that makes sense. Still, the same movie at identical bass mgt settings and it is measurably louder at the same volume control level, appearing more dynamic to the human ear.

Ghost Rider on Blu-ray has both TrueHD and PCM but here the difference is much closer. It is not the best soundtrack or movie for that matter but the differences are small between the 2.
I rented Ghost Rider and have no plans on buying it but I would be interested in what others think to the difference.

I still contend that the PS3 sounds better than the Toshiba HD-A35 I also have, not only with HD but DVD as well. HD-DVD is beginning to lose the battle for me too because of the 31 HD-DVD titles I have only 9 contain TrueHD tracks. Transformers only has a Dolby Digital Plus track, it does sound pretty damn good though. HD DVD still looks better on most titles than Blu-ray but I am more of a sound guy.

Stealth is definately louder on the PCM track compared to DD. I heard it was 7db's louder but when turned down it still sounds much better than plain old DD.

I think I may need to add more subs for these new formats as there is a lot more bass now.

It is a little interesting as well that I find higher levels more satisfying than before. Between 15 and 20 was the normal listening levels for movies but now 5 to 10 seam more appropriate. Before I would never run my system at 5 but it sounds so smooth and unrestrained now that it seams OK.

Ghost Rider on Blu-ray has both TrueHD and PCM but here the difference is much closer. It is not the best soundtrack or movie for that matter but the differences are small between the 2.
I rented Ghost Rider and have no plans on buying it but I would be interested in what others think to the difference.

I still contend that the PS3 sounds better than the Toshiba HD-A35 I also have, not only with HD but DVD as well. HD-DVD is beginning to lose the battle for me too because of the 31 HD-DVD titles I have only 9 contain TrueHD tracks. Transformers only has a Dolby Digital Plus track, it does sound pretty damn good though. HD DVD still looks better on most titles than Blu-ray but I am more of a sound guy.

Stealth is definately louder on the PCM track compared to DD. I heard it was 7db's louder but when turned down it still sounds much better than plain old DD.

I think I may need to add more subs for these new formats as there is a lot more bass now.

It is a little interesting as well that I find higher levels more satisfying than before. Between 15 and 20 was the normal listening levels for movies but now 5 to 10 seam more appropriate. Before I would never run my system at 5 but it sounds so smooth and unrestrained now that it seams OK.


MJAUDIO

Careful how emotional you get here. Someone may consider you unstable and bring into question your impressions.

MJAUDIO

Careful how emotional you get here. Someone may consider you unstable and bring into question your impressions.

Thanks for the psycho-analysis JBM.

Most people would think $10K for a pre-pro and another $1,400 for an upgrade insane but luckily here it's applauded. With that said I feel pretty stable in this forum.

Most people would think $10K for a pre-pro and another $1,400 for an upgrade insane but luckily here it's applauded. With that said I feel pretty stable in this forum.

Welcome to the asylum!!! :)