So, when are we getting a report from TheBland about his new baby???

I have to tell you I was surprised by the set up process. The manual, not nearly as detailed and intuitive as Lexicon's, confused me a bit but eventually I got there. There are still some bugs on the unit.

I haven't tried it out yet and I have found a few bugs with seeing the OSD when HDMI is engaged. I still haven't nailed down what the issue is but I will this weekend. I spoke with customer service at Halcro and was told that a major firmware upgrade is coming in the next 1 to 2 weeks. They will send it out on USB data sticks for a quick install and apparently it will addresss the aforementioned issues I called about plus others I have not yet encountered. I have not even tried out the scaler yet. Source set up is not as tweakable as my old Lexicon but seems adequate for my situation. Lexicon has had had years to fine tune their GUI and I can attest it is the best I have seen. But sonics are what counts, and that I have not yet checked.

I have to say that at this point, their customer service is very good. They do seem to listen and were openly aware of the issues I encountered. They plan to address them all.

I did use the automatic speaker distance and level set up with the enclosed mic, and it seems to have worked well (though I will recheck it against my own meter).


Apparrently it will address the last bugs and most importantly ENABLE multichannel, uncompressed PCM for HD DVD and BluRay. Currently, it only allows for 2 channel.

I hope to watch movies and play this weekend. So look for more.

Jeff, can you refresh my memory, why you didn't just go with the MC-12HD?

ENABLE multichannel, uncompressed PCM for HD DVD and BluRay.

I hope to watch movies and play this weekend. So look for more.

Jeff,
The last thing I would want to do is put any added pressure on you. If you are like me , those weekends are what allows a reset of my nervous system from the sometimes crazy world out there but........................ when are you going to have a meet !!! ? :D

I hope it will still be this fall. :)


Art

Jeff:

If you have bugs "on the unit", have you considered professional help vis a vis an exterminator :D That's a bit different from bugs with the unit ;)

Sorry man, but that was just out there waiting to be said!

Jeff,

When you get a chance can you post about how the Halcro sounds as a simple preamp for stereo music sources vs the Lex? I use my Lex about 50-50 for listening to music and watching movies and the quality of music was imho one of it's biggest strengths.

Jeff,

". Lexicon has had had years to fine tune their GUI and I can attest it is the best I have seen."

It has been that way for a long time. A 10 year old DC-1 has a menu system that is laid out almost identically.

" Apparrently it will address the last bugs and most importantly ENABLE multichannel, uncompressed PCM for HD DVD and BluRay. Currently, it only allows for 2 channel."

Considering that you posted the entire reason you made a move was to get multi-channel high resolution audio over HDMI I'd think I'd get the above statement in writing from Halcro. Along with something like if it isn't done in x amount of time you can return the product.

Shawn

P.S. Do more research before buying products..... ;)

Jeff,

". Lexicon has had had years to fine tune their GUI and I can attest it is the best I have seen."

It has been that way for a long time. A 10 year old DC-1 has a menu system that is laid out almost identically.

" Apparrently it will address the last bugs and most importantly ENABLE multichannel, uncompressed PCM for HD DVD and BluRay. Currently, it only allows for 2 channel."

Considering that you posted the entire reason you made a move was to get multi-channel high resolution audio over HDMI I'd think I'd get the above statement in writing from Halcro. Along with something like if it isn't done in x amount of time you can return the product.

Shawn

P.S. Do more research before buying products..... ;)

I would've never thought to ask this and I gotta tell you that it was my assumption that this feature was automatic when HDMI is present. I was very surprised to find out it was not a current feature. I told my dealer as well as Halcro that there would be no other reason to invest in such a product. All parties agreed and assured it was coming.

Not a bad idea about getting in writing.

I switched from Lexicon simply to try something new. The value on my 12B was dropping and I wanted to bail before too big of a loss. When Lexicon delivers an all new product, I may go back. Halcro has a stellar reputation and if they build a processor that performs anywhere near the quality of their amps, I'd be very happy.

Jeff,

" I would've never thought to ask this and I gotta tell you that it was my assumption that this feature was automatic when HDMI is present."

As you found it is not. In fact at this point handling multi-channel audio over HDMI is more the exception then the rule. That is changing of course.

"All parties agreed and assured it was coming.

Not a bad idea about getting in writing."

I'm just saying that to cover yourself since I know you wanted MCH audio over HDMI to be able to take advantage of DD+ and Dolby THD that is available today.

I have no idea if Halcro will be implementing it or not and/or how quickly that will occur. I just know plenty of other companies have made statements about upcoming features/functionality that never occurred. It is why most recommend making purchases based on what a product does today, not based on what is said to be coming tomorrow.

" and if they build a processor that performs anywhere near the quality of their amps, I'd be very happy. "

Sure, but expertise in one area (building amps) does not imply expertise (DSP/processing) in another. That they use a third party DSP platform demonstrates that.

Shawn

Good points. I don't know whther the Halcro will measure up to or exceed the Lexicon in performance. I am sure either way, performance will be close.

This HDMI thing is such a PITA. As much as I pay attention to the latest, I never would've guessed about the PCM multichannel NOT being accepted over HDMI...

I am sure it will be added but who knew???

You will not be sorry you got the Halcro. Had mine since they came out and the sound quality is the best I've had. Movies are just amazing as well as two channel. Halcro has been great to work with continuing to upgrade and or replace if hardware has been changed. I've had both Mark Levinson and lex and I would not go back. Its all about the SOUND.

You will not be sorry you got the Halcro. Had mine since they came out and the sound quality is the best I've had. Movies are just amazing as well as two channel. Halcro has been great to work with continuing to upgrade and or replace if hardware has been changed. I've had both Mark Levinson and lex and I would not go back. Its all about the SOUND.

Good to know.. I can't wait to do a listening test this weekend!

What sdo you know about the upcoming firmware upgrade that is supposed to include multichannel PCM over HDMI?

Jeff,

I just spoke to my Halcro dealer and he told me that Halcro is releasing a hardware upgrade kit to go along with the firmware upgrade in order to enable to multichannel PCM over HDMI. The release should be very soon.
Sean

Normally I would just assume that when you pay those kind of bucks, they will do the right thing ........ but I bought into that with the Proceed gear several years ago, paying $5500 (in 1999) for a dvd transport that was built to accept upgrades, etc, but it never worked correctly and finally they killed the whole product line.

Hopefully Halcro will be more like Lumagen and not like Harmon International (who owned Proceed).

Good points. I don't know whther the Halcro will measure up to or exceed the Lexicon in performance. I am sure either way, performance will be close.

This HDMI thing is such a PITA. As much as I pay attention to the latest, I never would've guessed about the PCM multichannel NOT being accepted over HDMI...

I am sure it will be added but who knew???

Does the Lexicon MC-12 HD with HDMI v1.1 permit multichannel PCM over HDMI?

Lexicon does...but though I have no direct knowledge, I heard from my dealer that the there might be some down resing of the HDMI PCM at some point in the chain though the Lexicon display ashows 96/24....

Perhaps Shawn could comment to this. My dealer told me of this but I have no direct knowledge.

"...but though I have no direct knowledge, I heard from my dealer that the there might be some down resing of the HDMI PCM at some point in the chain though the Lexicon display ashows 96/24...."

Your dealer is flat out wrong. The MC-12 has internally supported 6 channels of 96/24 input data since the first day it shipped years ago. The A/Ds in the Lex. run at 96/24... so when you used the 5.1a input and redigitized to apply processing it was running on top of a six channel 96/24 source and could expand that out to 10 channels of 96/24 from Logic 7 and bass management. It could actually do twelve channels but Lexicon hasn't used the other two channels for anything yet.

The MC-12HD is very much the same. It has no problems at all accepting 6 channels of 96/24 from the HDMI input and processing them at full resolution. There is no downsampling in the Lex.

Shawn

Well, I must admit I'm interested in Jeff's observations, though, as I speak, I'm awaiting delivery of my MC-12HD (balanced, EQ). While I love my Halcro amplifiers, I used to love my Krell amplifiers, but definitely did not like it when I switched to Krell A/V processors. I can't see why I'd want to risk the change.

Nick :cool:

Nick,

I agree...any time you switch from something that is solid, you run a risk. I guess I'll have to see.

I like to try new things and if the Halcro turns out to be a sonic superstar, well then it was the right choice. If not, I can fully reassess in a year or two when the new, fully redesigned HDMI 1.3 processors hit the market.

Does the Lexicon MC-12 HD with HDMI v1.1 permit multichannel PCM over HDMI?

Again... yes....

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7950678&&#post7950678

Write it down somewhere.

Shawn

Nick,

I was wondering what you were doing when I saw your MC-12 for sale.

Have fun with the HD when you get it!

Shawn

Nick,

BTW, I assume you have ordered one already but if not strongly consider pickup up one of these:

http://www.oppodigital.com/dv970hd/dv970hd.html

With it to the MC-12HD over HDMI you get a multi-channel digital connection for your DVD-As *and* SACDs.

Shawn

Again... yes....

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7950678&&#post7950678

Write it down somewhere.

Shawn

OK. I wrote it down here. You feel better now?

Nick,

I was wondering what you were doing when I saw your MC-12 for sale.

Have fun with the HD when you get it!

Shawn
Am I missing something about the spectacular trade in program with Lexicon? Why are guys selling the MC12 instead of trading up to the MC12HD?

Nick,

I agree...any time you switch from something that is solid, you run a risk. I guess I'll have to see.

I like to try new things and if the Halcro turns out to be a sonic superstar, well then it was the right choice. If not, I can fully reassess in a year or two when the new, fully redesigned HDMI 1.3 processors hit the market.
Hey, you have the balls to try something new rather than just get stuck into the brand loyalty thing. If it does not work out you can always switch back. I salute you for trying something new and look forward to your report.

Am I missing something about the spectacular trade in program with Lexicon? Why are guys selling the MC12 instead of trading up to the MC12HD?

Yes, you are missing something.

As I understand the trade-in program, the dealer takes your unit in trade, and then has the independent responsibility of selling it. Subject to the parameters of what Lexicon permits in terms of the unit you're trading in, the dealer receives the MC-12HD unit at a lower cost.

Though I agreed to assist in the marketing, it was essentially my dealer selling my unit, and he insisted that it be identified as a unit that was subject to the trade-in program. I'm guessing that's because each unit can only be used once in the program.

I can't disclose the ultimate deal I received on the MC-12HD, but I will say that it renders the doom-saying speculators as not merely wrong, but inane. The amount I am out of pocket made it a no-brainer. The trade-in program, in my case, was fabulous.

Lexicon has been there at every juncture in the nearly five years that I've owned the MC-12, and now they've done it with a fabulous upgrade program. And of course, they still have Room EQ, HDMI processing/switching, and a company with a demonstrated track record of constant and timely improvement to their products, even when they're several features ahead of the competition.

Nick :cool:

cost.

.

I can't disclose the ultimate deal I received on the MC-12HD, but I will say that it renders the doom-saying speculators as not merely wrong, but inane. :
That just your opinion. Trade-in program was not enough to stop The Bland from at least trying something else now was it ;)?

That just your opinion. Trade-in program was not enough to stop The Bland from at least trying something else now was it ?


What I do has nothing to do with Nick or any other buyer. Nick, Shawn and the other MC-12 owners are smart and aware guys. They have certainly made a thougtful and intelligent choice with the MC-12 HD. Me going with Halcro says nothing good or bad about Lexicon, Halcro or Nick's choice. The MC-12 HD is a good machine and the cost factor is very fair.

And let's not forget a bit of incorrect info too. Thebland went into his Halcro purchase assuming that it basically could do everything with HDMI that the MC12-HD can. He was wrong. Hopefully that will be corrected, but if he had to do it again...?

I am going to look into the trade in program for my MC-12B. Is there an upgrade path for the MC-12HD to HDMI 1.3??

What I do has nothing to do with Nick or any other buyer. Nick, Shawn and the other MC-12 owners are smart and aware guys. They have certainly made a thougtful and intelligent choice with the MC-12 HD. Me going with Halcro says nothing good or bad about Lexicon, Halcro or Nick's choice. The MC-12 HD is a good machine and the cost factor is very fair.

Don't worry, Jeff got a smokin' price on the Halcro, he always does. Too bad
it doesn't do multi-channel LPCM even though it has HDMI 1.1. Although Halcro promises a software upgrade to accomplish this, we will see - and if a software upgrade can't accomplish it, I have no doubt Jeff will get them to take care of him on that. Notwithstanding this, I betcha within 6 months Jeff moves back to the Lex MC-12 HD.

Jeff, how come you didin't demo a Halcro first to ensure that it did what you wanted? And have you had some pretty harsh words with your Halcro dealer, who I assume told you it could already do multi-channel LPCM over HDMI? Pretty inexcusable supposing you told the dealer that was the big reason you wanted to make the change.

I'm working with a good dealer who I have dealt with in the past. He'll take care of me I'm sure if I'm unhappy with the outcome of the piece. Like most, I wouldn't deal with just any dealer off the internet on such a purchase. I'm trying it out, we'll see. I didn't demo it based on my readings and my dealer. I didn't audition the Lexicon either and certainly enjoyed it.

Hi Jeff,

I went over the HDMI 1.3 issue with my dealer before I purchased my SSP80 last week. This was the response I got and am pretty confident that Halcro will do the right thing.

[Quote]
I had a meeting today for dealer training with the head of Halcro's technical support and I am told that Halcro will be supporting owners of their processors by offering a hardware and software upgrade to HDMI version 1:3. This will allow their units to take advantage of the new sound fields that will be on the HDDVD and Blueray discs. Current units will pass a 1080I or 1080 native signal via HDMI so you will be able to enjoy the full benefit of the upgraded picture but just like everyone else in the industry the hardware and software support isn't their yet for upgraded sound so the sound tracks will be just like current DVD's for the moment. The problem is that the industry is yet standardized on the new HDMI format and until they do no one is willing to step out and take the risk. Halcro is at least willing to commit to providing and upgrade option to their customers so that their high end processors won't be outdated in 12 months. As much as I like the HDMI format its launch has been shaky for everyone and even current HDMI versions 1.1 and 1.2 are not standardized throughout the industry and compatibility issues have come up from time to time, not just with Halcro but with every manufacturer. They are thankfully rare but they do happen. The industry is supposedly committed to ironing this all out by the time 1.3 launches. I guess the short version of all this is yes Halcro will support 1.3 for current owners of SSP80's and SSP100's.
[End Quote]

Dennis

Hi Jeff,

I went over the HDMI 1.3 issue with my dealer before I purchased my SSP80 last week. This was the response I got and am pretty confident that Halcro will do the right thing.

[Quote]
I had a meeting today for dealer training with the head of Halcro's technical support and I am told that Halcro will be supporting owners of their processors by offering a hardware and software upgrade to HDMI version 1:3. This will allow their units to take advantage of the new sound fields that will be on the HDDVD and Blueray discs. Current units will pass a 1080I or 1080 native signal via HDMI so you will be able to enjoy the full benefit of the upgraded picture but just like everyone else in the industry the hardware and software support isn't their yet for upgraded sound so the sound tracks will be just like current DVD's for the moment. The problem is that the industry is yet standardized on the new HDMI format and until they do no one is willing to step out and take the risk. Halcro is at least willing to commit to providing and upgrade option to their customers so that their high end processors won't be outdated in 12 months. As much as I like the HDMI format its launch has been shaky for everyone and even current HDMI versions 1.1 and 1.2 are not standardized throughout the industry and compatibility issues have come up from time to time, not just with Halcro but with every manufacturer. They are thankfully rare but they do happen. The industry is supposedly committed to ironing this all out by the time 1.3 launches. I guess the short version of all this is yes Halcro will support 1.3 for current owners of SSP80's and SSP100's.
[End Quote]

Dennis

That appears to be about as forthight as one ask for. Not that the sky couldn't fall but if one wants state of the art in a time of such flux this looks like a pretty safe bet.

Art

That's all well and good, but the question is, will they enable multichannel LPCM for their current platform, or are they going to force everyone to wait for the 1.3 upgrade? That is obviously going to take considerable time to develop.

It is my understanding that the software upgrade will enable multichannel LPCM for HDMI 1.1 and is due in the next few weeks (it is reportedly in final testing in the field).

That is very good news.

[QUOTE=Dennis M]Hi Jeff,

I went over the HDMI 1.3 issue with my dealer before I purchased my SSP80 last week. This was the response I got and am pretty confident that Halcro will do the right thing.



That appears to be about as forthight as one ask for. Not that the sky couldn't fall but if one wants state of the art in a time of such flux this looks like a pretty safe bet.

Art
That has been Halcros position for the last year. I asked these exact questions almost a year ago. Halcro said without hesitation that they will do whatever is needed to make their processors work with the new formats. This is the kind of reassurance you need to make purchase this expensive. It is a good looking piece as well, very modern looking. In fact, I think it is the best looking processor on the market. A year ago, I was also told they are looking into room correction. I do not know where this stands.

That's all well and good, but the question is, will they enable multichannel LPCM for their current platform, or are they going to force everyone to wait for the 1.3 upgrade? That is obviously going to take considerable time to develop.

Esp. considering part of that quote from them above....

but just like everyone else in the industry the hardware and software support isn't their yet for upgraded sound so the sound tracks will be just like current DVD's for the moment.

Shawn

" That has been Halcros position for the last year. I asked these exact questions almost a year ago. Halcro said without hesitation that they will do whatever is needed to make their processors work with the new formats. This is the kind of reassurance you need to make purchase this expensive. "

Is it reassuring that they have been saying this for a year and not done it yet?

Like I mention in the other thread... making purchasing decisions based on timelines and assurances is setting oneself up to get burned. Don't buy based on vaporware.....

Shawn

Guess we will see in two weeks if they walk the walk or just talk the talk.

I was close to buying an SSP80 a few weeks ago, when I realized it's HDMI would NOT accept multichannel LPCM. At that point I decided to wait. I'm just going with an HDMI receiver for another 6 months to a year and then take a look at whats out there.

Really the only prepro that really has a decent feature set right now is the MC-12HD, the rest either lack room correction, or HDMI audio or both.

I want decent room correction, I want HDMI audio processing at least to the 1.2 level. I would also like HDCD decoding but thats not a must. I'm going to stick to receivers until these features become available in a decent prepro.

"I want HDMI audio processing at least to the 1.2 level."

What does v1.2 offer you that you feel is a must have?

Shawn

I'd prefer to get SACD data via HDMI as DSD, and let the prepro do the DSD->PCM conversion if needed. It's not a big thing, and I cant find any HDMI 1.2 SACD players right now, but it would be nice as I have a large SACD collection I would like to continue to listen to in the best possible quality, given that I want room correction it will almost certainly mean PCM conversion, but I would rather the prepro do that than the source.

"I'd prefer to get SACD data via HDMI as DSD, and let the prepro do the DSD->PCM conversion if needed."

Most likely for any processing a DSD-PCM conversion is going to be required. At this point I highly doubt any pre-pros are going to come out which can natively process DSD. Pre-pro manufacturers would basically have to start all over from a hardware and software standpoint to deal with DSD natively. I think that is unlikely for what is basically a tiny market compared need.

It will be interesting to see if any players come out that will actually spit out DSD natively. Do you know of any players other then the Oppo which convert DSD to LPCM and spit it out over HDMI?

Shawn

The oppo converts DSD->PCM and outputs it as multichannel 88.2Khz LPCM via HDMI 1.1, I don't know of any others that do this.

The Oppo does seem to do a good job of this, but using a Pioneer 74Txvi as a prepro i.Link was superior for SACD, likely because of HDMI processing errors for LPCM streams on the pioneer (it routes the LFE data incorrectly).

At any rate since 1.2 components are readily available, I'd rather have the prepro do the DSD->PCM conversion if that becomes a possibility. There will eventually be HDMI 1.3 players that support SACD and these will probably send the SACD data as DSD to 1.2 compatible prepros.

Hi Jeff,

Did you get a chance to evaluate the audio of SSP100 over the weekend? I'm really interested in your opinion on it. Especially since I'm still waiting on my SSP80 to arrive.

Dennis

Hi,

Yes, I did watch X-Men 3 the other night. Sonically, it is solid. It seems to have different signature to the sonics over the Lexicon. Subjectively, somewhat warmer in sound. I have much more viewing to do so that may change. Bass came through solid and surround effects were well localized. Fortunately, sonics is the name of the game and it is not a let down in that department. Is Lexicon more flexible and more tweaks? Yes (for example, you cannot add output to the LFE signal in the Halcro - only subract output, 0 to -10). I have a call into tech support to see if there is some sort of work around. On the other hand, the Halcro seems to have no limit for speaker distance set up. THe Lexicon limits you to 30 ft. This was an issue in my system as my subs are horn devices and acoustically, my subs really act like they are 40 ft away. I had to employ my DSP to get things right. All seems to work relatively bug free except for some OSD issues with HDMI sources. I used the auto calibration and it seems to work relatively well. I am awaiting my calibrator to come down and perfect all with his RTA. I am awaiting LPCM over HDMI. It was supposed to be on board when delivered but apparently it is not. So, that is a problem for me. THe HDMI switching has worked without a hitch. No HDMI errors. And I am having trouble getting RS-232 control. I use an RTI remote and they haven't figured things out as of yet. Apparently, when LPCM over HDMI is enabled, it will be 7.1..which is good. Admittedly, I am disappointed as I do not have LCPM over HDMI now. This was a surprise...and I am impatient.

Jeff,

"THe Lexicon limits you to 30 ft. This was an issue in my system as my subs are horn devices and acoustically, my subs really act like they are 40 ft away. I had to employ my DSP to get things right."

For future reference the Lex. (and all processors) really only care about relative distances between speakers as that is what it bases time alignment on. If your nearest speaker is 10 feet or futher away you could have simply subtracted 10' for all your measurements and put that into the Lex. and it would still have been able to time align everything properly.

Shawn

Shawn, I'm aware of that and employed that so that all I had to change in the DSP was the subs. My speaker distances range from 8.5 ft to 22 ft (not including sub). I needed my DSP to make all perfect.. Not a huge deal though...

Jeff,

"I'm aware of that and employed that so that all I had to change in the DSP was the subs."

How did you deal with the sub being acoustically further away using the DSP for the subs?

Shawn

Jeff,

"THe Lexicon limits you to 30 ft. This was an issue in my system as my subs are horn devices and acoustically, my subs really act like they are 40 ft away. I had to employ my DSP to get things right."

For future reference the Lex. (and all processors) really only care about relative distances between speakers as that is what it bases time alignment on. If your nearest speaker is 10 feet or futher away you could have simply subtracted 10' for all your measurements and put that into the Lex. and it would still have been able to time align everything properly.
But my processor goes to 11.

Jeff,

"I'm aware of that and employed that so that all I had to change in the DSP was the subs."

How did you deal with the sub being acoustically further away using the DSP for the subs?

Shawn

We went forward in time.....:D No actually now that you bring it up, I believe my installer did so in the other DSPs rather than the subs....I remember it was an issue that was quickly solved with the DSPs.

OK, that makes much more sense. I knew the QSCs were tricky but I didn't think they were that tricky! ;)

Shawn

Hey Jeff,

Good to hear that the sonics are there. Just got off the phone with Halcro. Got the info on the up coming firmware update and its a little different then what I was expecting.

The one coming in the next week is currently being beta tested. It will only address HDMI sync issues. This is purely a software upgrade.

In about 30 days they will be releasing the upgrade that will allow 7.1 LPCM over HDMI. This will involve a hardware upgrade, daughter board and cable. As well as an update to the OS. Here's the kicker. There is a cost associated with this upgrade. They were not able to tell me the price since they have not worked it out yet.

Does this correspond with the information you are getting from them?

Dennis

Hey Jeff,

Good to hear that the sonics are there. Just got off the phone with Halcro. Got the info on the up coming firmware update and its a little different then what I was expecting.

The one coming in the next week is currently being beta tested. It will only address HDMI sync issues. This is purely a software upgrade. Apparently the hardware portion is complete but there is still a bit more to the software.

In about 30 days they will be releasing the upgrade that will allow 7.1 LPCM over HDMI. This will involve a hardware upgrade, daughter board and cable. As well as an update to the OS. Here's the kicker. There is a cost associated with this upgrade. They were not able to tell the price since they have not worked it out yet.

Does this correspond with the information you are getting from them?

Dennis

That is exactly what I got. Can't come fast enough.

Same here :D

They have me on their contact list now.

Have to say that they are really friendly, great service.

I have found the same. I haven't encountered the HDMI connectivity issues assuch. I told my dealer is is 7.1 LPCM that is the main prize here for me. It is still taking some time to getting used to but as long as the sonics are good, I don't mind.

I have found the same. I haven't encountered the HDMI connectivity issues assuch. I told my dealer is is 7.1 LPCM that is the main prize here for me. It is still taking some time to getting used to but as long as the sonics are good, I don't mind.

The question is how much is the cost of the LPCM HDMI upgrade? Jeff, when you purchased your Halcro, were you told - expressly or by the dealer not saying anything - that the LPCM was included in the cost?

Hi,

Yes, I did watch X-Men 3 the other night. Sonically, it is solid. It seems to have different signature to the sonics over the Lexicon. Subjectively, somewhat warmer in sound. I have much more viewing to do so that may change. Bass came through solid and surround effects were well localized. Fortunately, sonics is the name of the game and it is not a let down in that department. Is Lexicon more flexible and more tweaks? Yes (for example, you cannot add output to the LFE signal in the Halcro - only subract output, 0 to -10). I have a call into tech support to see if there is some sort of work around. On the other hand, the Halcro seems to have no limit for speaker distance set up. THe Lexicon limits you to 30 ft. This was an issue in my system as my subs are horn devices and acoustically, my subs really act like they are 40 ft away. I had to employ my DSP to get things right. All seems to work relatively bug free except for some OSD issues with HDMI sources. I used the auto calibration and it seems to work relatively well. I am awaiting my calibrator to come down and perfect all with his RTA. I am awaiting LPCM over HDMI. It was supposed to be on board when delivered but apparently it is not. So, that is a problem for me. THe HDMI switching has worked without a hitch. No HDMI errors. And I am having trouble getting RS-232 control. I use an RTI remote and they haven't figured things out as of yet. Apparently, when LPCM over HDMI is enabled, it will be 7.1..which is good. Admittedly, I am disappointed as I do not have LCPM over HDMI now. This was a surprise...and I am impatient.
Good job! Interesting comments. Looking forward to the good part when you finally get some higher rez stuff going. You are hearing differences? That is even better. I guess theory is one thing and practice is another. Your DSP apparently has NOT limited your ability to hear differences inspite of what I expected. That is even better and I stand corrected.

Jeff, although you are hearing some differences, what is your overall gut impression? Are the sonics so far not as good, as good, or better than what you had before, and how would you explain the lesser or better sound in terms of what you hear? Just because the Halcro sounds warmer in your system than the Lexicon doesn't mean necessarily that overall it sounds better. How about some more info? Thanks.

I received an e-mail on Oct. 4 as I have been on Halcro's mailing list for about a year now about a review. It has a link but no review was there. Perhaps it is coming? http://www.avrev.com/equip/halcro_ssp100_sound_processor=

Steve and Bulldogger,

I need more time. My initial impressions are that there are some sonic differences. It seems a bit more neutral than the Lexicon but I may change my mind on that after my installer comes and does a full, calibrated install and I am able to listen to more material I am familiar with. As I have always said, I like the sound of the Lexicon. But this piece is new to me and my I am all ears for what it does. Halcro is a high end manufactuer and they know what good sound is. My hope is that makes it into this piece. So far so good on that respect.

Regarding the upgrade to HDMI LPCM, I was not aware at the time that it couldn't do LPCM over HDMI but I am glad that it is going to be added and soon. Moreover, it will be 7.1. I am not aware of any other processor that can accept LPCM 7.1 over HDMI. Not there is anything 7.1 to watch yet.

As an update, I did get an email from the Halcro product manger regarding my complaint that LFE level can only be subtracted (0 to -10) rather than augmented. Apparently, there is a feature to do so that I did not recognize as such. So that is good.

I feel that Halcro is committed to the product based on the customer service and quick responses I have received. My dealer also has their ear and they are very much aware of what we guys that want high end processing expect.

I will post more after I get more time to play and listen with more familiar material.

Hey Jeff,

Got my SSP80 last night and am going to start the setup tonight. :D

This is really the fun part of this hobby, playing with new gear.

You mentioned that there was a function to augment sub levels. Where can that be found?

Dennis

Dennis,

Try the 'enhanced bass' setting to 'on/ in the speaker size set up menu.

I have a Panasonic BluRay player comnig to morrow so I am looking forward to tryng that out...unfortunately it will be via analog outs. That HDMI PCM fix can't come fast enough..

Hey Jeff,

Got my SSP80 last night and am going to start the setup tonight. :D

This is really the fun part of this hobby, playing with new gear.

You mentioned that there was a function to augment sub levels. Where can that be found?

Dennis

Thebland : as this price level, sonic diff. should be subtil. Your comments are very neutral rigth now and you seem a bit disapointed. I guees the lpcm thing is driving you off.

Patience is a vertue is this hobby of ours.

As has been previously reported, this unit sounds much better after a burn in period. So initial impressions may need to be modified after a month or so.

Thebland : as this price level, sonic diff. should be subtil. Your comments are very neutral rigth now and you seem a bit disapointed. I guess the lpcm thing is driving you off.

Patience is a vertue is this hobby of ours.

Hey, I'm excited! But I haven't really put it through its paces yet either. I'm scheduling my calibrator to come down in the next couple of weeks to fully dial it in and calibrate my BluRay player (I finally ought a BluRay player (Panasonic) & have 6 BluRay films coming so a lot of viewing to do. ).. I am an impatient sort. I want it dialed in, LPCM, etc now!

THe other part of the the equation is getting used to a new piece and the hoards of rewiring I have to do..... I haven't had the time either with work, a couple vacations, and other activities. I''ve had a busy month. I am still at work on the RS-232 programming as well. Lots to do when switching out the brains of a big system...

But let me say, the sonics seem very good. I'll have a fully detailed report on the unit in the next week or two when I really play with it.

...and if there is one thing I despise, it is guys that buy a replacement piece of equipment and nonsensically gloat over it like it is the next coming after 2 minutes of listening tests... That's not my style, hence the tepid enthusiasm. Halcro, to their credit, has answered all of my set up questions. I have not ran into one bug [yet]. :)

As an update, I did get an email from the Halcro product manger regarding my complaint that LFE level can only be subtracted (0 to -10) rather than augmented. Apparently, there is a feature to do so that I did not recognize as such. So that is good.


As a rule, I find that surround processors and univeral players and HD DVD players, at least the ones I have (CB3, Compli and Toshiba HD-XA1), even if they have on the speaker level menu that you can increase the speaker level, it really doesn't work about 0, but works tor reduce level only. That may not be the case with all components. I know my Velodyne SMS-1 bass EQer does allow volume change.

I just watched CLICK on BLuRay. I can say that sonically the Halcro is impressing me. Even though the film is a comedy, there are some occassions of very deep bass, big dynamics and split surround activity. Though I am still grappling with the user interface and control (RS-232), I am confident about the sonic abilities of this piece - it is better than I expected. Unfortunately, I am still a couple weeks off from getting the HDMI LPCM upgrade so I can really feed it what it wants! I watched CLICK in DD.

I have been following this thread so I would like to post my impressions of this product.

We received a SSP100 and MC20 for demo in our showroom. My first impression of the build quality is top notch obviously. The looks are very nice, clean and modern.

I only had a chance to do listening in 2-channel, but from the hour or so we listened with Dynaudio and Thiel, the combination is the best I have ever heard these speakers sound. The noise floor is zero allowing extreme low level detail to come out. The sound is extremely clear and the separation of instruments is beyond belief. The combination of processor and amp is just magic.

From what I am told this SSP100 has the newest software that has the HDMI activated for audio, so I will have to test it out. So far this is the best surround processor I have heard for music. It can easily compete with the best preamps and standalone DACs on the market. I cant wait to do some theater listening.

Tomorrow I will do some theater listening with the new JL Audio Fathom 13" that we got. I love new toys! :)

That parrots my thoughts...the sound is different...better than I thought possible from a processor. There seems to be no edginess at all with this piece and a big soundstgage.

I am curious about your new firmeware,. upgraded piece.

Check to see if your BluRay or HD DVD player can send multichannel PCM via HDMI!

I'll have to call my dealer today to see if it is available for me! Thanks!

I could be wrong but I don't think the software upgrade we are awaiting is available yet, as it was still being tweaked as recently as last week.

As I've said in numerous previous posts, the combination of the MC20, MC70, and SSP100 provides the clearest, most detailed sound I've ever heard although you really need high quality speakers to appreciated with the electronics can do.

Got my SSP80 last Thursday and had the same impressions as you guys. The minute I turned it on I new I was listening to something special. The image is very large. The detail and separation is very impressive. Using balanced connections to an Accustic Arts AMP II High Power and a pair of Oskar Heil Kithara speakers.

Hey Jeff, found another spot where you can adjust your sub level. Under the preset configuration you can adjust the level plus-minus 12.

Dennis

I have been following this thread so I would like to post my impressions of this product.

We received a SSP100 and MC20 for demo in our showroom. My first impression of the build quality is top notch obviously. The looks are very nice, clean and modern.

I only had a chance to do listening in 2-channel, but from the hour or so we listened with Dynaudio and Thiel, the combination is the best I have ever heard these speakers sound. The noise floor is zero allowing extreme low level detail to come out. The sound is extremely clear and the separation of instruments is beyond belief. The combination of processor and amp is just magic.

From what I am told this SSP100 has the newest software that has the HDMI activated for audio, so I will have to test it out. So far this is the best surround processor I have heard for music. It can easily compete with the best preamps and standalone DACs on the market. I cant wait to do some theater listening.

Tomorrow I will do some theater listening with the new JL Audio Fathom 13" that we got. I love new toys! :)

I'd keep in mind that the amplifier contributes greatly to the fidelity you hear. You might do some mixing and matching with other processors and amplifiiers to determine if what you're hearing is dominated by one or the other, or both.

Nick :cool:

Agreed. That said, I noticed a different sonic signature after implementing it. This was nice as I have never really thought the processor part impacted the sound to such a great degree....I was certainly wrong.

I just spoke to Halcro- apparently they are done tweaking the firmware and are putting it through final testing. If all goes well, it should be available within next 2 weeks.

That parrots my thoughts...the sound is different...better than I thought possible from a processor. There seems to be no edginess at all with this piece and a big soundstgage.

Sounds to me like typical ex LEXICON owner comments. That edginess is the hallmark of lexicon that you just became accustomed to. Other processors have this transparecy too though. Tact, Meridian 800, Theta come to mind.

I agree with Cineramax- the digital edginess has always kept me away from Lexicon. The Meridian 800 and Theta are certainly good sonic company for the Halcro to be in, as the Halcro costs significantly less and is better featured.

I'd keep in mind that the amplifier contributes greatly to the fidelity you hear. You might do some mixing and matching with other processors and amplifiiers to determine if what you're hearing is dominated by one or the other, or both.

Nick :cool:

I 100% agree with that statement. In fact, I am going to swap out the SSP100 with the Bryston SP2 and see what the change is.

These Halcro Class D really have me sold on the technology. Infinitely better sounding than Nuforce.

Read the latest Stereophile. Most all complain about "cut-off" of high freqs and some soundstaging issues with Class D. The main man from KRELL basically said Class D was not ready from prime time and not worthy of KRELL at this time.

I've heard the Jeff Rowlan and BelCanto amps and both sound fine to me. The real issue is $. It will be hard to fetch $15-25K per monoblock if Class D is adopted. Therefore if the amp prices fall 50-75% then the have less money to spend on ads in Stereophile.

AA, I've not heard the Halcro MC series but I understand it is a great product. For me I had a PS AUDIO GCAMC 500 (500x7) and I was very satisfied.


Regards,
Mike

And do not forget the BOZ amp.

Read the latest Stereophile. Most all complain about "cut-off" of high freqs and some soundstaging issues with Class D. The main man from KRELL basically said Class D was not ready from prime time and not worthy of KRELL at this time.

I've heard the Jeff Rowlan and BelCanto amps and both sound fine to me. The real issue is $. It will be hard to fetch $15-25K per monoblock if Class D is adopted. Therefore if the amp prices fall 50-75% then the have less money to spend on ads in Stereophile.

AA, I've not heard the Halcro MC series but I understand it is a great product. For me I had a PS AUDIO GCAMC 500 (500x7) and I was very satisfied.


Regards,
Mike

After some careful listening today, I have come to some conclusions. The Halcro Class D has a super low noise floor. It excels at retrieving detail at low volume levels, and doesnt ever get edgy at high volume levels. The top end sounds very smooth. Not necessarily rolled off, but perhaps not as "in your face" and punchy sounding as solid state. It definately would not pair well with all tweeters. I think the thing that I liked most was that every part of the sound spectrum was smooth and natural.

Interestingly enough I think this amp, and most class D amps that I have listened to are better for music listening. I think the home theater benefits from dynamic, punchy and aggressive sound. The Halcro is definately more polite sounding. Class D is a hard sell IMO because solid state can sound so good, and is the most reliable amplifier technology. Most class D amps that I have seen have a minimal warranty, and for most people spending that kind of money, reliability is a huge consideration. I think that it needs more time to mature before it can have a chance to really cut into solid state.

I was getting really interested in this Halcro SSP processor line, from reading this thread, until I looked at the back of the unit, and the specs (at their website).

Of course, this is from the point of view of a crazy bass (not 'base') head , but there is ONE subwoofer output. ONE? How about the MC12B giving you separate LFE, Sub L, and Sub R out, not to mention that the SSP100, at least, is -3dB down at 5Hz, so the manual says.

Sonically it might be better and perhaps better actually for most, but for me with 4 subwoofers... it doesn't play too well. I could get around the single subwoofer out by using the Lake to create crossovers, but the 5Hz cutoff is a showstopper for me. It turns out today that I am effectively using only a mono integrated LFE/Subwoofer channel from the Lexi anyway, but I plan to tweak the Lake EQ to get back to a stereo sub situation, which I would guess should make for a somewhat better movie experience.

Actually, there are 5 sub outs on the Halcro

1. 1 Balanced output (if you prefer you can add a balanced splitter for 2 balanced).

2. You can also use the L and R single ended (RCA) sub outputs as well.

3. There are 2 other assignable outputs (single ended RCA) for up to 2 more sub outs (they also allow crossovers and separate gain control).

I use 3 sub outs...1 balanced for my 2 subs (my DSP splits the signal), 1 single ended outptu for my Bass Shakers and 1 for my row of Buttkickers.

As for the -3 down at 5 HZ, eq those 3 db back in...

Considering the improved sonics over the Lexicon, when you get HDMI working, you are going to have the best sound currently available in a home theater setting.I am truly envious. Guess you have already been there with the Qualia for video with it having been a break-through product and the best digital projector. Keep up the good work on reporting what you hear. Steve's favorite movie, "Superman Returns" is going to be a hell of a show at your place when it gets released in Nov., in both Blu-ray and HD-DVD. That is one that I will certainly buy and not rent. I very happy with the sound for music with the Six Shooters which is the only thing that keeps me from selling my Theta and jumping on the Halcro bandwagon. Since you do only movies, looks like you have found the perfect processor. Sometimes you just know from discussions with a company that they are going to eventually get it all or mostly right. I am convinced that Halcro is going to work out all of the bugs and be a force to be reckoned with in this market. As we have both said a good dealer is a very valuable asset and you appear to have one that is making some good recommendations.

[QUOTE=AudioArchitectInterestingly enough I think this amp, and most class D amps that I have listened to are better for music listening. I think the home theater benefits from dynamic, punchy and aggressive sound. The Halcro is definately more polite sounding. Class D is a hard sell IMO because solid state can sound so good, and is the most reliable amplifier technology. Most class D amps that I have seen have a minimal warranty, and for most people spending that kind of money, reliability is a huge consideration. I think that it needs more time to mature before it can have a chance to really cut into solid state.[/QUOTE]
I have seen comments from Ron-C at Mcintosh as to the benefits of producing a digital amplifier. He seems to think that it is indeed possible to make a digital amp to sound just as good as a linear amp. He suggests that to build one of equal to their linear amps quality is currently more expensive than their traditional linear amps. Mcintosh actually builds a digital amplifier that another company use. I do not know the company. I plan to audition the new Halcro stuff soon. While to fully get a grip on the sound I need to be able to compare it against some pieces that I own or have owned. Often though, I can tell from a demo if certain pieces are holding back the performance of speaker that I may be familiar with, especially if the dealer has another well know piece to compare it against in his showroom.

We would need someone to test the analog IN for stereo/mch player.

Thebland : Absolutly OT, but did you make your pre-order on 2005 bordeaux ? they are supposed to be the best in 30 years (they always say that, but seems like it's true now) Judging by the amount of money they took on my CC, my order was fully accepted. (40 bottles).

We would need someone to test the analog IN for stereo/mch player.

Thebland : Absolutly OT, but did you make your pre-order on 2005 bordeaux ? they are supposed to be the best in 30 years (they always say that, but seems like it's true now) Judging by the amount of money they took on my CC, my order was fully accepted. (40 bottles).

I havenot placed my order yet but my dealer warned me months ago that it will be expensive this year and that it is looking to be a strong year.

I have not placed my order yet but my dealer warned me months ago that it will be expensive this year and that it is looking to be a strong year. I like the Margaux and Mouton...what are you lookin at?

Jeff,

Interested in your take as to how you would implement 7.2 on the Halcro as their own literature only lists 7.1 as an option. Also, I've heard that the LDPCM update "may" require a hardware update as well as just firmware. Have you heard the same?

Jeff,

" Actually, there are 5 sub outs on the Halcro

1. 1 Balanced output (if you prefer you can add a balanced splitter for 2 balanced).

2. You can also use the L and R single ended (RCA) sub outputs as well. "

Are those actually independant channels though? Multiple subwoofer connectors that all receive the same info isn't really the same thing as supporting multiple subwoofers.

Based on your configuration I assume all your subs/shakers are receiving the same signal which is a mono redirected bass channel with LFE channel mixed in.

Shawn

Peter...hardware AND software upgrade for lpcm

Shawn...Yes sub anf LFE mixed. No separate LFE unless you set your speakers to large....(which with my DSPs I dould do...).

3 of the 5 sub outs can be independently set up (gain & separate crossover settings). The other 2 follow the main balanced LFE out.

Agreed.

My subs are actually set to front (LFE) and Rear (supporting the surrounds) from the Theta. Very different signals. I do not want LFE going to both.

From Halcro Today (I am interested in this piece, but only once they get this working - seems like they still have a ways to go):

2) Do you support mult-channel audio over HDMI? Yes DTS and Dolby Digital

At this time we support multi channel audio but it will take us some months to upgrade the system to support multichannel PCM as we need to develop hardware and SW solutions for the new dvd formats.

From Halcro Today (I am interested in this piece, but only once they get this working - seems like they still have a ways to go):

2) Do you support mult-channel audio over HDMI? Yes DTS and Dolby Digital

At this time we support multi channel audio but it will take us some months to upgrade the system to support multichannel PCM as we need to develop hardware and SW solutions for the new dvd formats.

If "some months" is a direct quote, I'd be anxious. "Some" can easily equal "12," and then we're talking about a different issue entirely.

Nick :cool:

If "some months" is a direct quote, I'd be anxious. "Some" can easily equal "12," and then we're talking about a different issue entirely.

Nick :cool:

If it ends up being later than Christmas, then I am back into Lexicon. I won't put up with anything longer than that. I hope not as I really think the Halcro is the superior sounding piece...

Actually..after more listening I may just wait..I am really digging its place in my theater...

Jeff,

"If it ends up being later than Christmas, then I am back into Lexicon. I won't put up with anything longer than that."

Of course you will. It was a month, then Thanksgiving... now Christmas.... soon New Years... then Groundhog Day.... ;)

Keep watching:

http://www.vincilabs.com/newproducts/products.html

Since the DSP processing section of the Halcro is the Vinci Titan platform you likely won't see LPCM over HDMI until Vinci adds that to the Titan platform. After Vinci releases that software/hardware then Halcro will need to integrate it into their product which will take additional time. This is the problem with using third party DSP solutions, Halcros hands are tied based on what Vinci does or does not do with the platform.

"Actually..after more listening I may just wait..I am really digging its place in my theater... "

Cool, enjoy it. Just wait (literally ;) till you hear the Dolby THD soundtrack over HDMI.

Shawn

You may be right Shawn. I probably will end up waiting it out. I like the piece that much...

Jeff, like you the LPCM option is a big thing for me.

The internal test tone generator in the HD A1 is useless. Plus I want to be able to dial in my settings.

That being said, the sonics of the SSP80 are just great and I can't see myself giving it up.

So when the LPCM comes it comes. Strange though when I spoke with Halcro, about two weeks ago, they indicated to was something like a month out.

Dennis

PS. Looks like the Tigers will be having Cardinals for Thanks Giving. :D

PS. Looks like the Tigers will be having Cardinals for Thanks Giving.

Now that was just WRONG. You never know the Cardinal's might just take flight, and you never know what they might drop on the head of the Tigers. :)

Bryan

Jeff, just out of curiosity, why did you decided to go with the Halco over something like the Anthem D2 which has all the features you seem to want? Mine sounds spectacular with PCM multichannel over HDMI with my Toshiba HD A1?

Jeff, just out of curiosity, why did you decided to go with the Halco over something like the Anthem D2 which has all the features you seem to want? Mine sounds spectacular with PCM multichannel over HDMI with my Toshiba HD A1?

Jeff drinks $80 bottles of wine. Do you think he would buy a $6500 Anthem? :D

Jeff, just out of curiosity, why did you decided to go with the Halco over something like the Anthem D2 which has all the features you seem to want? Mine sounds spectacular with PCM multichannel over HDMI with my Toshiba HD A1?

After reading this thread, I was thinking the exact same thing.

My D2 is spectacular with both my HD-DVD and Blu-ray players. I have it since 9 months already, and the internal Gennum VXP scaler of my D2 is so good paired with my Sony Ruby.

Actually, I sold my DVDO VP30 external scaler after getting the D2 since it was giving me a much better PQ with 1080i HD-DVDs then the DVDO. My pre/pro was simply better then a true dedicated external scaler.

And now we know that Anthem made the right choice 1 year ago in choosing the Gennum chip since all the latest high-end dedicated scalers (Lumagen RadianceXG and Crystalio II) are all using the same chip. Anthem were the first to put a working Gennum scaler on the market. Not a simple feat for a pre/pro manufacturers...

While Lexicon and Halcro are fighting and struggling to just follow the market, Anthem were taking the lead, even in front of the receiver manufacturers (not a single high-end receivers can do true 1080i IVT and per-pixel motion adaptive, even today... but the newest high-end receivers will all do it soon... 9 months after Anthem).

Anthem are now testing a firmware to enable custom resolutions, multiple per-input memory banks, custom gamma curves, gen-lock... (all those are actually working in the beta firmware). So everything the high-end dedicated scalers can do. And all those new features are not for "next christmas" or "next year", since I'm already using them. ;)

Room-eq is also coming soon for the D2.

And multi-channel LPCM over HDMi is working since the first day it came out on the market. :D And it's passing 1080p/60 easily. I'm using only the HDMI connections and don't do any 2 ch or analog in my room, and the D2 is spectacular.

The first months were predictably a rocky road for a ground-breaking product like that, and it was to be expected. But the latest batch are now rock solid. Mine is working like a charm since day one 9 months ago.

Tycoon is right...part of it was the low price with so many options. You don't get something for nothing. On paper it looks great, but I have been at this hobby long enough to know that you stick with what sounds best..even if there is some wait on niceities. Part of it was the problems many have had along the way with Anthem. The scaler looks nice but I have been waiting for the Radiance for scaling duties.

The Halco does not have LPCM over HDMI yet. I wish it did. It will.

That said, the sound of the piece is so excellent in my system that I am willing to wait it out. In the end, it is all about the sound. Th Halcro has it. It be fibbing if I didn't say I was disappointed with the slow progress but I know when it comes, it will elevate this piece.

It's like an excellent Bordeaux or Brunello. They are great today...but with time they'll be better so like the Bordeauxs and Brunellos I have in my cellar, my Halcro waits.....(but fortunately for the Halcro, it is months)...My 2002 Bordeauxs....2010-15 at the earliest and more likely close to 2020 before popping the cork..

Hi Levesque,

I'm not going to speak for Jeff but I choose the Halcro over Anthem because its sonics were much more appealing to me. The D2 is a well engineered and flexible product but musically, I found it fell short of the Halcro.

As for scaling, I would not be able to take advantage of it since I am running a CRT PJ with a Lumagen. Going analog all the way down the line.

Dennis

Hey Jeff,

Are you taking advantage of the Halcro's scaling capabilities?

As I'm running in the analog domain for video I have not used it.

Does it work well with the Qualia?

Dennis

Don't think the Halcro will output 1080/24pSF. If it did that would be wonderful. Why I'm waiting on the Radiance myself.

Dennis,

No. I have the scaler totally bypassed. I run all of my HD sources at 1080i. My Qualia does not accept 1080P. I find my projector takes good care to scale them up to its native resolution...Peter, I have lost interest in 1080P24sf, the Qualia really does well with 1080i. I can't really see artifacts.

Well Jeff, my hat's off to you if you think the Anthem is inexpensive. :D My friends want to have me committed.

I would love to hear the Halcro but I am just enamored with the sound of my D2. Hope they get you everything you are looking for.

Wingnut,

[The Anthem] is Not inexpensive per se...just relatively inexpensive for all the goodies on board. I'm too cynical to think that a proxcessor with HDMI switching, a gennum scaler, and more upgrades possible (all for $6500) that there must be some sonic compromise somewhere...perhaps not and I do not doubt you like yours quite a bit but it is simply my mindset when it comes to equipment. Perhaps to my detriment....;)

Have you listened to the D2 ?

Have you listened to the D2 ?

Also look at Jeffs component rack. With the over heating problems with this unit
it just might not work for him.

Also look at Jeffs component rack. With the over heating problems with this unit
it just might not work for him.
Yeah. It does get hot. I have a fan on it. I was just curious if he heard how it actually sounds.

Jeff

Does the Hacro get hot?

I was going to buy the Anthem D2 but having to buy a $12 fan and raise it up on a couple of beer coasters is not a solution to overheating. That coupled with the note in the box that states if you don't use lightweight HDMI cables and you damage the socket your warranty is void.

Does Halcro state anything like that?

There are no restrictions on the warranty like that..Standard 3 year warranty.

It doesn't get hot either....but boy does it have excellent multi-channel steering! Ijust watched Gone in 60 Seconds and Brothers Grimm and the sonics were spectacular (particularly on Grimm).

Just wait until the Halcro burns in for a while , it just gets better and better. This is the best sounding piece I have ever purchased BAR NON.

Jeff,

So is that a no..you have never heard the D2?

Jeff,

Had some testing this weekend at the event which showed some of the problems in the Qualia scaler - order is going in for the Radiance as soon as it is available.

Peter

I have not heard a D2. Though I am sure it is a nice piece..

The Halcro has so impressed with the sonics and soundfield that I simply can't believe it. It almost makes me think that I had a set up error on my Lexicon. The sound is that different. I wish I could have you all over for a demo.

Peter, when is the Radiance due?

So Jeff, you didn't change your amplifiers, just the processor?

Also, are you getting used to the user menu's or do you still think Lecxicon is much better in that area?

Free,

No. My system is exactly the same. Just added the processor. The funny thing is even before my Lex MC-12B, my Meridian 565 never was able to truly open the soundfield in my room. The Lex improved things, however. My room has always sounded good but I always felt the rear and side surround fields were lacking. I attributed it (til now) to speaker placement as my sides sit a foot or two forward of my main listening position. But now, the field seams do much more 3-D.

Soon I'll have na AVS meet with many over to check it out. I'm really pumped now.

Menus and set up are far and away more flexible in the Lexicon. There are things I miss but set up, once completed with the Halcro, is very sonically rewarding...I'm really pleased with its performance.

Thebland : i know you had a CB3 for a while and finally choose the Lex. What did you make the move ?

Audiman,

Lex's flexibility and ease of set up and no perceptible variations in performance.

I have not heard a D2. Though I am sure it is a nice piece..

The Halcro has so impressed with the sonics and soundfield that I simply can't believe it. It almost makes me think that I had a set up error on my Lexicon. The sound is that different. I wish I could have you all over for a demo.

Peter, when is the Radiance due?
Thanks Jeff. That's how I feel about the D2. I wish I could hear the Halcro too.

Jeff can you compare the Halcro to the CB3? Seems like your the only one who had both. Any sonic differences that you can recall?

Bad, I had a CB II for about a month. Nice piece but I like the sound of my Halcro.

Hey Jeff,

How did you deal with the low PCM LFE output on the HD A1 with the Halcro? Right now my Sub is lower than the rest of my channels using the HD A1's analog outs.

Whenever you have your HT meet, let me know. I'd love to attend. :)

Thanks,

Dennis

I gavce up on the HD-A1 analog outs. When you use them you lose all the digital post processing and when I added it up, sonically I am way ahead using the smiple Toslink out. That LPCM upgrade cannot come fast enough!

Ok, so I'm not the only one pulling my hair out on this one. :)

I hear you on the upgrade. It's getting painfull not having the processing functions available. :(

Dennis

UPDATE: RS-232 SUCCESS!

Wow did that take some doing....thanks to the folks at Remote Central.

UPDATE: RS-232 SUCCESS!

Wow did that take some doing....thanks to the folks at Remote Central.

Jeff,

Thanks for the post. It gives me some perspecrive where things are with Halcro.

I have been following this thread for the same reason - just to find out what else out there besides MC12. I own MC12 4EQ.

That being said, I'm kind of puzzled about your selection of remote control. Considering your current setup, one would think that you'd go for Crestron ro AMX.

I'm not discounting the abilities for RTI. Before Crestron I had Theater Touch T2 with RF module. But ever since Crestron system installed, I realized the flexibility that Crestron offers.

Hi,

The RTI is as bullet proof as Crestron with all of the features. I use the color touchpad T-3, RP-6 control module and RF. I looked at Crestron buy honestly, I couldn't stomach a $10K remote. But I wanted all of the Crestron functionality and reliability.. So, I found RTI and have been very pleased. I employ voltage sensors for on/off sensing, RS-232, IR mini plugs as well as an IR block, discrete codes. The program is so solid my 10 year old can navigate to any source, play it and then fully shutdown the system...If you can't tell, I am pretty excited about the RTI product.

Like Crestron, the commands are all stored in a control processor. I buy and sell equipment so often, that my Crestron bill would be prohibitive. I switchout something at least every couple months or modify my master macros frequently as well. I also purchased the IR capture device so I can program my T-3 if no codes are available from the master code list - if I add a new piece, I can have it integrated into my remote in a matter of 15 minutes (no waiting for my Crestron programmer)....Moreover, the programming language is so simple, that I have it customized exactly the way I like it. THere are 100s of graphics to load plus you can import your own if you like. I like that it is hand held as well. I have over 40 pages programmed into theater set up. I gotta tell, you this is part of the hobby I enjoy playing with. I wanted a remote that I could program myself as often as needed without having to call a dealer. that was bulletproof in terms of not failing to miss commands or activate macros and employed RS-232. I got it with the RTI. It is like a DIY Crestron..

My firmware update from Halcro is on the way as it is completed. It does not include lpcm upgrade. That apparently is still one month off. The piece sounds so nice. I have no regrets in leaving Lexicon in terms of sonics..

I have been using this piece for over a month now and will soon post the good as well as the bad...sort of a mini review.

My firmware update from Halcro is on the way as it is completed. It does not include lpcm upgrade. That apparently is still one month off. The piece sounds so nice. I have no regrets in leaving Lexicon in terms of sonics..

Sort of like the movie "Groundhog Day", where each day repeats itself. With Halcro, each month the LPCM upgrade is one month off. HA!

However, no doubt they're working on it and the LPCM upgrade will come through eventually, probably within the next 6 to 15 months if my speculation is any good.

Glad your enjoying it!

I gavce up on the HD-A1 analog outs. When you use them you lose all the digital post processing and when I added it up, sonically I am way ahead using the smiple Toslink out. That LPCM upgrade cannot come fast enough!

Just a note to ensure that folks properly set multi-channel analog output from a
Blue Ray or HD DVD player, because if you don't set this right, the analog output can't sound as good as it should (Jeff probably set his up correctly, but want to make sure):

Use a THX DVD like "The Incredibles" and use the DD 5.1 test tones,
including the subwoofer LFE test tone. First setup the multi-channel analog output of the player, setting the levels in the processor. With the processor LFE channel level at 0, set the volume level on the sub(s) so the LFE channels match the other channels - use either 80 or 85 db as a reference. Then set the LFE level the same way but for the processor's toslink input. Since you are all EQed, this input should end up precisely at -10 dB at your surround processor LFE level,
at least it does with mine. Then all digital sources should be set to that level.

The reason for this is that the surround processor adds a 10 db boost on DD 5.1 LFE - but it doesn't for stuff that's input via analog.

OK, I have the new FIRMWARE UPDATE from Halcro.

I will update my unit and let you all know what it fixes. All my dealer said is that improves performance and stability....I have not had one stability issue or HDMI error and am pleased with the performance. That said, I have medium sized list of nit picks. Curious to know if they were addressed.... Stay tuned!

I'm sure that everyone is aware of this, but RTI remotes are NOT designed, marketed or sold as DIY pieces. The hardware and software is sold dealer only, just like Crestron and AMX. Jeff probably has a great relationship with his dealer who feels comfortable providing the software. This is not going to be the case for every dealer or end user.

This is not meant to start another restrictive manufacturer bash fest ala URC. Just thought that those who may not know won't waste a lot of time searching for great internet deals on RTI products.

BTW, Jeff is absolutely right, RTI makes the best and most feature rich remotes available.

You are right... I have a great dealer. I think he was surprised when I showed him my prggram for my theater...40 pages, graphics, RS-232, and macros galore...just a fantastic system. You are right, it is dealer only....but these AV forums provide great opportunities for enthusiasts that enjoy tackling such a job.

Just wait until the 2-way processor is released. The gap between RTI and Crestron will get even smaller.

You are right... I have a great dealer. I think he was surprised when I showed him my prggram for my theater...40 pages, graphics, RS-232, and macros galore...just a fantastic system. You are right, it is dealer only....but these AV forums provide great opportunities for enthusiasts that enjoy tackling such a job.

Jeff, Same here. My dealer installed the basic 12 room system with audio and video and let me tweak the rest of the automation. I tweaked HVAC, sprinklers, pool, paging, intercom and home theater control myself. It is fun.

By the way, Crestron stuff has great resale value.

Bland,
How did you get the update? I just spoke to my Halcro rep who told me only two units are running it for testing, and it will be another week or two until general release.

My dealer is a beta tester. All he told me was that the update will improve stability (I haven't had any issues) and performance.

The downside, is it wipes out all settings. If you are interested, I took the time to print out the entire menu system so as to quickly jot down my settings. I can email it to you.

Bad, I had a CB II for about a month. Nice piece but I like the sound of my Halcro.
The CBIII with Xtreme or Superior II dacs is a significant improvement over the CBII with the original Superior dacs that Jeff used. Jeff really would need to hear a CBIII with the better dacs to get a feel for the comparision. I personally was not impressed with the CBII and original Superior dacs and can see why Jeff was not either. The CBIII with better dacs is a different beast. I am impressed with it and it would be a more apples to apples comparision.

Bland,

Any tips on blending rear or side sub woofers with the Aux channels 9 and 10? Have you used those yet?
Thanks,
JD

In the summer of 05, Halcro was promising room correction for the fall of that year. What happened with this? Is it still on the table?

Bulldogger,

Your answer is in post #41....

Shawn

That's is a very informative post, number 41. Thanks.

Wow. It is threades like this one that have me totally re-thinking my future Theta CB III purchase... I do not have the kind of income that most of you here have but I have been saving up fro what seems like forever to get the HT equipment that I want. I am 99% sold on the fact that I will be purchasing Aerial speakers. I have heard demos of the model 7B's and Model 9's in a HT application and the sound was so intoxicating that I have been thinking about it ever since.

I am also in the Army so I move every few years. This makes it very hard to have a house with a great room for HT. This is why I figure I might as well get the best stuff I can and build up from there. I am definitely more of a HT buff than I am a critical music listener, so where does this put me for wanting the best 5.2 I can get?

Wow. It is threades like this one that have me totally re-thinking my future Theta CB III purchase... I do not have the kind of income that most of you here have but I have been saving up fro what seems like forever to get the HT equipment that I want. I am 99% sold on the fact that I will be purchasing Aerial speakers. I have heard demos of the model 7B's and Model 9's in a HT application and the sound was so intoxicating that I have been thinking about it ever since.

I am also in the Army so I move every few years. This makes it very hard to have a house with a great room for HT. This is why I figure I might as well get the best stuff I can and build up from there. I am definitely more of a HT buff than I am a critical music listener, so where does this put me for wanting the best 5.2 I can get?

Hi HTNG, I sent you a PM.

HT_NewGuy, Michael Kelly of Aerial, who used to have a CB, told me last month he was thinking of now gettin' the CB3. What does that tell you? Since you, me and many others luv Aerial?

Weight the merits and costs of what surround processor you want and can afford.
Consider the pros and cons - each has them. Don't let Mr. Bland's hatred of Theta (dating back on this forum the other year when he offered to trade professional services for a free CB surround processor but no one took him up - he has hated Theta ever since - who knows what if anything he paid for his Halcro - me, I paid retail for my CB back in 1997 and I've upgraded it ever since though I admit I have dealer friends and have got close to dealer cost on upgrades - I never demanded anything for barter).

Steve, if I had a free Theta, I'd have sold it by now......it is at the endo the line....worthless. I did try and get a Valis out of them, but then I found out it was DVI...:(.

Like Lexicon and Halcro, 1.3 is an impossiblility to implement in an old design. Unlike HDMI 1.1, it is an '8 layered board'. Too big and complicated to implement in today's hardware. If somehow Theta did shoe horn it in, it would be rudimentary relative to it's full potential....and boy will it cost.

I don't 'hate' Theta, I only look at their handling of upgrades and Slowsky like speed for upgrades as sophomoric.

Speaking of HDMI, anything new on the Halcro HDMI upgrade?

Steve, if I had a free Theta, I'd have sold it by now......it is at the endo the line....worthless. I did try and get a Valis out of them, but then I found out it was DVI...:(.

Like Lexicon and Halcro, 1.3 is an impossiblility to implement in an old design. Unlike HDMI 1.1, it is an '8 layered board'. Too big and complicated to implement in today's hardware. If somehow Theta did shoe horn it in, it would be rudimentary relative to it's full potential....and boy will it cost.

I don't 'hate' Theta, I only look at their handling of upgrades and Slowsky like speed for upgrades as sophomoric.

So you also tried to get a Valis out of Theta, not just a "free" CB in trade. Interesting. The Valis ain't even out yet. So your attempt must be been very recent, while you are so busy Theta bashing. What did you do - promise to stop bashing Theta for a free Valis?

Theta has already discussed on the forum how, for purposes of HDMI audio, they have to overhaul the internals of the CB3, anyway. They'll do it. Why? Because future consumers want it, that's why, there's a demand coming and Theta knows it. And if the HDMI doesn't sound quite as good as us audio purists would like, well, we've still got our Six Shooter(s).

Speaking of HDMI, anything new on the Halcro HDMI upgrade?

July is the latest date I have Stephen. Still, no pricing on the upgrade cost.

Charles

How many of you are using the Halcro Remote, and how many are using another Universal remote?

It looks nice, but it is as good feature-wise as a Logitech Harmony, etc?

I'd think most people using $10k+ amps and processors would be using $3k+ remotes for home automation; AMX, Crestron, the one thebland is using.

How many of you are using the Halcro Remote

I am still using the Halcro remote. However, my system is not as complicated as most.

Charles

July is the latest date I have Stephen. Still, no pricing on the upgrade cost.

Charles

Every month its next month. Has anyone noticed? I guess its just not as simple as they thought or it would have been done months ago.

Well...better than every year is next year........

Well...better than every year is next year........
Still evading my question about the statement you made about the Halcro sounding better than the Lexicon. The answer is as you say not difficult.

Every month its next month. Has anyone noticed? I guess its just not as simple as they thought or it would have been done months ago.

Steve,

I don't profess to know the history of Halcro's promises on the upgrade. Personally I am a patient person and when Halcro has completed the process, they will make it available. It's not unusual as you know to speculate release dates and then have to push them farther in advance. Although not an EE, my common sense approach tells me that anytime you make a change in a complex electronic device, the FM theory does not apply.

Charles

Steve,

I don't profess to know the history of Halcro's promises on the upgrade. Personally I am a patient person and when Halcro has completed the process, they will make it available. It's not unusual as you know to speculate release dates and then have to push them farther in advance. Although not an EE, my common sense approach tells me that anytime you make a change in a complex electronic device, the FM theory does not apply.

Charles

Charles, I don't disagree with you. I have faith in both Halcro and Theta to do the HDMI multi-channel upgrade. But I think Theta has been in the surround upgrade business a lot longer and has already been burned by giving too short of deadlines for upgrade, so Theta is being much more conservative. Whereas Halcro is new to the surround processing biz and is being much more liberal that "we'll have it next month" which could be no different than Theta's "we'll have it hopefully next year".

Eventually we will find out.

Steve, I think that is a fair assessment.

Actually, the official Halcro position expressed to me going back to the beginning (2006) was summer of 2007 for this upgrade. It has only been in this forum that I heard of earlier dates. So they have until September until it is officially late.

Actually, the official Halcro position expressed to me going back to the beginning (2006) was summer of 2007 for this upgrade. It has only been in this forum that I heard of earlier dates. So they have until September until it is officially late.

You are one person that was told one thing. Jeff and others here have been told other things. Who knows what others off the forum were told? :mad: :p :cool:

Who told you the official Halcro position? Dealer? Someone from Halcro? AVSer?

Ahh...it'll be here soon enough....Thanks goodness!!!

I can't wait!!!!

Actually, the official Halcro position expressed to me going back to the beginning (2006) was summer of 2007 for this upgrade. It has only been in this forum that I heard of earlier dates. So they have until September until it is officially late.

Terry,

Thanks for the information.

This is one of the problems where companies can create their own hell, if that's what anticipation is. When any firm is not forthcoming with information such as this upgrade, release dates from the general public are all over the place. This type of info should be (IMHO) accessible to the public on their web site. I've always thought without update information released by a company, the rumor mill can convolute the truth.

This may be as Steve has written, a rookie mistake by a company that seems to have a very good track record in the past. Amps are amps and I think Halcro has pretty much kept their product mix in that realm. However as we all know, SSP's are a different animal.

In fairness, Paddy, a senior tech/developer did share with me via email correspondence, the most recent software versions and the tentative date of the upgrade. I just would like them to be a bit more forthcoming to the general public.

Grab a dart and throw it at the calendar. Someone may get it right.

Steve,
If you need to know, I was given the info by Halcro's US rep. I have also spoken on occasion with Joe Payer, who is President of Halcro. I agree that it is a problem when dealers relate optimistic forecasts to customers which are not the official position.
By the way, anyone seen a working Theta Valis yet, which according to Theta's website was introduced in September 2005?

I am not sure but I think that the Valis, which was on the drawing board back when DVI was new and hip, is being delayed to they can do HDMI. I think Evelyn from Theta mentioned this here at AVS. But my memory could be playin' tricks on me.

In my book both Halcro and Theta are really good "audiophile" home theater companies.
I like to give Jeff SH_T but he did fine going with Halcro, and he would have done fine going with Theta, too.

So, have we decided which processor is better for HT? I am dying to know... lol

Everyone's decided. The processor each person owns is his favorite and the best. What else is new?

Seriously, you've got to consider your own room, acoustic treatments, sonics, components and speakers, and price point and needs to determine this for yourself.

My Theta CB3 and Six Shooter has served me very well for my uses, needs and price point.
Jeff likes his Halcro, before that his Lexicon.

However, did I hear you say Aerial 9s? If so, I ain't the only one who luvs the CB3 whose had Aerials for years and years, recently changing from the 10Ts to the 9s.

How many of you are using the Halcro Remote, and how many are using another Universal remote?

It looks nice, but it is as good feature-wise as a Logitech Harmony, etc?

I do not really use the Halcro as I am not a fan of touchscreen remotes as I would rather feel the buttons than have to look at a screen. I still have it handy in the coffee table drawer just in case though.
My dealer had his Halcro remote fully programmed for the system in his showroom and it worked well but I still prefer a non-touchscreen.

Everyone's decided. The processor each person owns is his favorite and the best. What else is new?

Seriously, you've got to consider your own room, acoustic treatments, sonics, components and speakers, and price point and needs to determine this for yourself.

My Theta CB3 and Six Shooter has served me very well for my uses, needs and price point.
Jeff likes his Halcro, before that his Lexicon.

However, did I hear you say Aerial 9s? If so, I ain't the only one who luvs the CB3 whose had Aerials for years and years, recently changing from the 10Ts to the 9s.

First off I am completely jealous of your Aerial 9's.

I think the main difference with the Halcro and Theta is what your main focus is. If you are mainly a movie person the Halcro would probably fit the bill better than a fully loaded CB3. A movie guy will want to add Blu-ray and HD-DVD so the HDMI inputs of the Halcro will really come in handy and while I am sure the CB3 is more than capable with movies, Badbenz did prefer the Halcro to his CB3 with xtreme dacs.

If your mainly a music guy then definitely go with the CB3. Badbenz preferred his CB3 for movies and I did prefer the Proceed AVP-2 and Meridian G68 for music as well.

We all have to keep in mind as well that the CB3 fully loaded with a six shooter costs a lot more money than the Halcro and is more than double the price when you compare it to the SSP-80.

I love my Halcro SSP-100 and would not trade it for a fully loaded CB3 unless it was understood I could sell it as new and buy another SSP-100 and keep the change. It is not that I feel the CB3 is inferior to the Halcro but my main focus is movies and the Halcro does it better than anything I have ever tried.
Just like I am confident in saying without listening in my system that the CB3 is better for music I am also confident the Halcro is better for movies.

Now here is a wrench thrown in to gears for us all though. I heard that Mark Levinson is working on a new pre-pro that will utilize Lexicon software. Those 2 company's have alway been like a Reeses peanut butter cup commercial for me. I was always hoping that the head tech for Lexicon and Mark Levinson would bump into each other in the hallways of Harmon International and finally combine the excellent hardware of Mark Levinson with the excellent software of lexicon "two great sounds that would sound unbelievable together"

Actually, the official Halcro position expressed to me going back to the beginning (2006) was summer of 2007 for this upgrade. It has only been in this forum that I heard of earlier dates. So they have until September until it is officially late.

Actually I have never gotten a firm time on when the upgrade would arrive from Halcro as well. The only timetables I have heard is on this forum.

I was able to speak to a Halcro tech in person and was told that they are working on the LPCM upgrade but he had no firm date. I also asked about the HDMI 1.3 upgrade and he said to not expect any High End mfg's to implement 1.3 until at least January as they just sent out the developer kits in March or April. I know it seams odd that receivers are about to come out with HDMI 1.3 within the next couple of months but they have always moved at a MUCH faster pace than high end pre-pro's.

Maybe we should all stop announcing the upgrade dates ourselves and let Halcro do it for once. I am chomping at the bit for it like everyone else but would rather they get it right than fast.

Ok. The Halcro sounds like it would be better for movies, which is what I like most. However, what is the upgradability of the Halcro as compared to the Theta CB III? Will it become obsolete in a few years and would I be stuck having to buy a whole new $10K plus pre-pro? I know the theta will always have some upgrade package for about $3K ish...

Actually I have never gotten a firm time on when the upgrade would arrive from Halcro as well. The only timetables I have heard is on this forum.

I was able to speak to a Halcro tech in person and was told that they are working on the LPCM upgrade but he had no firm date. I also asked about the HDMI 1.3 upgrade and he said to not expect any High End mfg's to implement 1.3 until at least January as they just sent out the developer kits in March or April. I know it seams odd that receivers are about to come out with HDMI 1.3 within the next couple of months but they have always moved at a MUCH faster pace than high end pre-pro's.

Maybe we should all stop announcing the upgrade dates ourselves and let Halcro do it for once. I am chomping at the bit for it like everyone else but would rather they get it right than fast.
When I was considering the Halcro, I called Australia and asked for information. My experience is that information trickles from engineering to product line manager to spokespersons to dealers. It has always been easier for me to call and try to speak with the engineers or at least someone who can ask the engineers the questions that I want answered. The people best able to answer the technical questions are of course the guys actually doing the development. 6 or 7 years ago, this was a lot easier to do. Today with information traveling so fast on the internet, there are more "buffers" between the people who actually know, and the "spinners." You can usually get more information from a phone call. No one wants to have an e-mail in which they slipped and gave information that was not yet ready for release posted on the internet. When I called Halcro, I was quickly directed to the U.S rep, guess my accent did not sound Australian :). U.S. rep at the time, over a year ago, did not know much and had to "get answers", translation, call the people I had attempted to get answers from. It is likely that Halcro has a decent idea of when the upgrade will be ready. The guys who really don't know, the spokespersons, just keep saying soon or, "next month :) ." Who's the largest dealer for Halcro? The largest dealer often may know information that other dealers do not. Find that out and often you can find out information that no one else knows. Only catch is that while you can know, you can not share the information on the internet because when you do, it's the last time you will be told anything :D.

We all have to keep in mind as well that the CB3 fully loaded with a six shooter costs a lot more money than the Halcro and is more than double the price when you compare it to the SSP-80.


Theta has a new dac board at a lower cost. I do not have experience with it. It is actually the newest dacs. http://www.thetadigital.com/press-release/premium-dac-01-07.htm You will notice that it has new improved volume controls. I believe those controls are part of the reason that the Superior II and Xtreme dac cards sound better than the original Superior dac. The Xtreme dac of course has the highest level. Not sure what the new dacs are using.

I really only want the most involving home theater experience I can get. If Halcro is better at it, then...

I also wonder if it has anything to do with the software they use, and I know that Theta is very good at upgrading ... hmmm.... so many decisions...

I really only want the most involving home theater experience I can get. If Halcro is better at it, then...

I also wonder if it has anything to do with the software they use, and I know that Theta is very good at upgrading ... hmmm.... so many decisions...

I don't want to start a new feud here, but, objectively speaking, Theta's record regarding upgrades lags far behind other manufacturers, and there's no reason to expect that it won't lag behind Halcro's. The SSP100 is a much newer piece to begin with, and was released with HDMI inputs and an output. There's still no assurance that Theta will ever have HDMI capability, at least not in any of its current surround processors.

Then, when you read the time (usually measured in years) that it takes Theta to release an upgrade whenever it does do it, it might challenge any notion that Theta is "very good" at anything when it comes to the subject of upgrades.

Nick :cool:

IMO, both the Halcro and the Theta are GREAT processors for HT and I would be hard pressed to choose one over the other. I have never heard the six shooter, but I can believe that with the six shooter the Theta betters the Halcro for music reproduction. I actually bought a separate 2 channel preamp for my critical music listening. I chose the Halcro or 2 reasons: HDMI (although I'm sure Theta will eventually have HDMI and do it right, they are usually the last to have any new technology); and cost (factoring in a six shooter, cables and an eventual costly upgrade for HDMI the Theta costs twice as much.) If cost were no object and waiting another year or two for HDMI was acceptable I'd have gone with Theta.

Also, everyone I've spoken to Halcro has assured me there will be an HDMI 1.3 upgrade path for SSP, just no timetable.

IMO, both the Halcro and the Theta are GREAT processors for HT and I would be hard pressed to choose one over the other. I have never heard the six shooter, but I can believe that with the six shooter the Theta betters the Halcro for music reproduction. I actually bought a separate 2 channel preamp for my critical music listening. I chose the Halcro or 2 reasons: HDMI (although I'm sure Theta will eventually have HDMI and do it right, they are usually the last to have any new technology); and cost (factoring in a six shooter, cables and an eventual costly upgrade for HDMI the Theta costs twice as much.) If cost were no object and waiting another year or two for HDMI was acceptable I'd have gone with Theta.

I would agree that the Theta would sound better than the Halcro for music even without the Six Shooter. I have never been able to demo a Theta in my home but from what I heard from people I trust the music is stellar.
Has anyone compared the Proceed AVP-2 to the Theta for music?

I think the comparison between the Halcro and Theta should not be done with a Casablanca III with extreme dacs though. I am not sure what kind of configuration you would wind up with for $10,000 in the Casablanca III but extreme dacs would probably be much more. The Halcro SSP-80 sounds the same as the SSP-100 and costs I believe $8,000 so that would be an even more comparable as far as features are concerned with the Theta.
If we are talking about not being in the same ballpark price wise has anyone compared the Theta fully loaded with the Mark Levinson No 40 HD?

How about this, If someone has a Halcro SSP-80 then compare it to a Theta Casablanca III which costs $8,000 configured full retail. That would be comparing apples to apples.

It is funny how Halcro and Theta are the two main combatants in this forum thread, isn't there any other pre-pro's that would like to stake a claim here?

Ok. The Halcro sounds like it would be better for movies, which is what I like most. However, what is the upgradability of the Halcro as compared to the Theta CB III? Will it become obsolete in a few years and would I be stuck having to buy a whole new $10K plus pre-pro? I know the theta will always have some upgrade package for about $3K ish...

With the way company's get bought out now you never know. I never thought Proceed would go away. EAD and CAL both suffered as well from buy outs. I heard that the main man at Theta has also stepped down so who knows what direction they will be headed.
Upgradeability on a component depends largely on if the company is still around so lets all cross our fingers for our favorites.

If I were to buy a pre-pro and hope to get the latest upgrades asap then the Meridian 861 would probably be the best bet. I have been a die hard Meridian fan for a long time and from what I recall they were one of the first with Pro-logic II and IIx and many others. The 861 is like the Casablanca in that it has a modular chasis so upgrading harware is no problem (unless you don't like to spend major $) Meridian has a long track record of providing upgrades at a MUCH faster pace than Theta.

I had a Meridian G68 XXV which sounded great but I felt was not worth the nearly $10,000 price tag. The Halcro SSP-100 that replaced it costs the same, does sound better for movies and I don't have the buyers remorse like I did with the G68.

I disagree. We are talking about the best HT experience we can have. I think that the CB III with extreme DAC's has to be a contender... I just want to know if the CB III with extreme DAC's will be better than a Halcro.

I think I would feel more comfortable with the Theta, as they seem to have MUCH better customer support. However, it is all about what sounds best, right?

With the way company's get bought out now you never know. I never thought Proceed would go away. EAD and CAL both suffered as well from buy outs. I heard that the main man at Theta has also stepped down so who knows what direction they will be headed.
Upgradeability on a component depends largely on if the company is still around so lets all cross our fingers for our favorites.


The bullshit of what folks "hear" that they spread on the internet is just too much.
Was it you who in the past week or two at this form said that Theta outsourced either engineering or software overseas? I talked with Neil Sinclair, Theta's long time President and owner the other day, and he couldn't believe that crap like that is said, affirming Theta's stuff is all done here in the U.S. He mentioned that once they were looking at some overseas software engineers for their CB3 firmware but they never went that route. And yes, Neil remains the head honcho at Theta.

Nope. That wasn't me. I am not going to lie. I am not going to care who builds what, where. I only care about the end product. I am enamored with this Halcro thing as of late, and I am not sure why... I have heard the Theta CB III with Enterprise Monos on some Aerial Speakers and I was in love... I have read alot about Lex and Meridian, but I have no interest in them at all. The Halcro has been the only thing that has even made me think about anything other than the Theta, and it is only because it has gotten some good word of mouth press here for HT.

I guess it sounds silly, but that is where my mind has taken me. I feel like I just want to get one person who will say that the Theta is hands down better than the hlacro for HT... That would probably put my feeble little mind at ease! lol

BTW, how is the new Aerial set-up? I hope everything is back up and running. I cant want to hear of the improvements in depth...

The bullshit of what folks "hear" that they spread on the internet is just too much.
Was it you who in the past week or two at this form said that Theta outsourced either engineering or software overseas? I talked with Neil Sinclair, Theta's long time President and owner the other day, and he couldn't believe that crap like that is said, affirming Theta's stuff is all done here in the U.S. He mentioned that once they were looking at some overseas software engineers for their CB3 firmware but they never went that route. And yes, Neil remains the head honcho at Theta.

I heard that someone important left Theta but like you said it is probably bullshit. I frankly don't care and it was not me spreading that other "bullshit" as you so eloquently put it.

Maybe the next time you are having tea and crumpets with Neil you could find out.

I "Heared" that the US Navy bought Theta gear to use as anchors as nothing sinks faster into an endless abyss........ I am just kidding Steve......... trying to keep it light but go ahead and flame away.

I heard that someone important left Theta but like you said it is probably bullshit. I frankly don't care and it was not me spreading that other "bullshit" as you so eloquently put it.

Maybe the next time you are having tea and crumpets with Neil you could find out.

I "Heared" that the US Navy bought Theta gear to use as anchors as nothing sinks faster into an endless abyss........ I am just kidding Steve......... trying to keep it light but go ahead and flame away.

John Bailoff, Theta's tech rep to us consumers, left some months ago, to take care of his elderly parents, it was just too long a drive for John from his parents. John was fantastic and frankly, I doubt if any company has anyone nearly as great as he was with customers and explaining technical stuff. Right now Theta's Carl Nicholson, a great guy, is filling in for John along with his regular Sales duties, as Theta tried to find a full time replacement for John, which ain't easy to find someone even half that good. We miss John as does Theta and wish him the best.
See how stupid rumors spread - Keep in mind that John altho fantastic didn't do design, engineering or programming for Theta, yet he leaves and suddenly the blippos start expanding rumors that the head of Theta left.

Actually, President Bush is hiring Halcro's dealers to write his PR because they're so good at spinning the multi-channel PCM over HDMI upgrade date to make you folks so happy!!!@@

HtNewGuy

See Post Number 152 in this thread if you haven't read it already. A bit of a comparison of both processors.

Click Here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=739254&page=3&pp=60&highlight=halcro)

John Bailoff, Theta's tech rep to us consumers, left some months ago, to take care of his elderly parents, it was just too long a drive for John from his parents. John was fantastic and frankly, I doubt if any company has anyone nearly as great as he was with customers and explaining technical stuff. Right now Theta's Carl Nicholson, a great guy, is filling in for John along with his regular Sales duties, as Theta tried to find a full time replacement for John, which ain't easy to find someone even half that good. We miss John as does Theta and wish him the best.
See how stupid rumors spread - Keep in mind that John altho fantastic didn't do design, engineering or programming for Theta, yet he leaves and suddenly the blippos start expanding rumors that the head of Theta left.

Actually, President Bush is hiring Halcro's dealers to write his PR because they're so good at spinning the multi-channel PCM over HDMI upgrade date to make you folks so happy!!!@@

And to think I voted for Halcro, bastards.........lol................ good one :D

I disagree. We are talking about the best HT experience we can have. I think that the CB III with extreme DAC's has to be a contender... I just want to know if the CB III with extreme DAC's will be better than a Halcro.

I think I would feel more comfortable with the Theta, as they seem to have MUCH better customer support. However, it is all about what sounds best, right?


Here's the meat of Peter's post comparing Halcro vs CB3, which is found in the link given in the post above:

Alright, here is a quick overview after playing with the Halcro and the Theta.

Halcro SSP100
Theta - CB3 - Superior II DACs

Benefits to Halcro:

Price
Setup
Interface (sort of)
Value (quality for price)

Benefits to Theta

Sound Quality
Flexibility of Setup
Configurability
Staging

I have been using the Halcro now for a bit over a week. It is an excellent performer. I have a few "niggles" though. First, the internal scaler is USELESS and does little more than allow you to output everything over HDMI using basic upscaling of NTSC inputs. Second, the screen on the front of the unit is ugly and only NTSC. Since the vast majority of the users of this unit will be using it with HD sources, it would have been nice to have it display HD. Lastly, I could not get the HDMI output of the video to play nicely with two different Sony projectors a Ruby or a Qualia. Now it could be that particular unit, but this is the only one I had to test.

As for sound quality, this is a nice upgrade for someone coming from a Lexicon, Outlaw or Anthem product. The sound is crisp and clean, and the staging is good - much better than the other products mentioned. Setup was very easy, and there wasn't any "tweaking" required for good sound. A little "tweaking" can then be used to improve things, but not by much. The auto-setup using the microphone input was especially simple, as we had the unit up and running in under an hour. The user interface is quite simple and easily understood on the unit. However, the remote is another story - an abomination which should be programmed into something else and then lost if at all possible. A lot of money went into this rechargable touch-screen remote - all of it a loss - YUCK!

Now, in comparing to the Theta, you have to realize I have had the Casablanca since they came out and have been through every conceivable upgrade. I know this thing inside and out. That said, it is a BITCH to learn and properly configure. However, once you master it - it is your friend for life. The Halcro does not come close to touching the flexibility or configurability of the Theta - there is no comparison here. All right, there is - the Halcro is like a Mac, user-friendly and very functional on all levels. The Theta is like a PC, a bitch to master, but extremely powerful and flexible. The analogy goes even further as the Halcro is a closed system, while the Casablanca is a modular system designed around installable cards - a la a PC.

Sonically, this is what people have been waiting for. This one goes to the Theta. While the Halcro does a very good job, it does not match the Theta in a few key areas. While the Halcro presents an excellent sound-stage which is very "crisp" and "clean", it is a little "forced" sounding. The Theta's sound-stage is more enveloping and "relaxed" - never harsh or demanding.

The best way to explain is that the Halcro sounds like a GREAT Home Theater piece, while the Theta sounds like a GREAT Theater piece, more accurately reproducing the audio quality of the best Theaters I have been in. This is most notable when listening to the score of a movie, where the Halcro becomes a little "pushy" and "strident" and the Theta blends in a bit more.

Now, realize that the Theta is at least another 50% in pricing over the Halcro. This is not a slam at all at the Halcro, it is an outstanding piece of equipment, especially for the price. It is just that Theta is a bit more - thus commanding a much higher price-point.

I would say if you are more into Action type movies and price is a concern, then the Halcro is an easy purchase.

If you are more into a wide variety of movies and music is also important (movie scores as well as stand alone audio) and you can afford the premium price-point - then you should be looking at the CB3 from Theta.

I will continue to listen to these two pieces as I have the opportunity and report back my opinions as appropriate.

Peter's findings don't surprise me. I have no doubt that the Halcro is an excellent piece for its cost and what it does. But I'm also not surprised that Peter found the CB3 goes somewhat further. Especially when a longtime CB owner who has experience in using the CB3's settings to ensure the best sound quality - I find the B3's settings, particulary bass crossover, especially useful through room and system alterations/changes.

The Halcro and Theta CB3 are both outstanding surround processors. You've got to look at your gear and your needs. If you are into a fair amount of high quality music, using other high quality/musical components and especially wonderful speakers like Aerial 9s or better or similarly excellent musical speakers - then
Theta will make you very happy as they have Peter, me and many others.
If you have a nice system but sheer musicality ain't that important, and you can save some bucks with the Halcro, go for it!!! Jeff did. I'm sure it suits his purposes fine.

Now if you really wanna have some fun - go to Michigan, demo Jeff's system including music, HD DVD/Blue Ray and movies - then come to Az, and we'll have fun putting my system through the paces. Won't cost you that much given your investment in your system and surround processor. Then you will see that I know what I'm talkiin' about.

Steve, That sounds like an OUTSTANDING idea! When I get back from Iraq, I will probably do that. However, I will also probably have purchased my gear first lol... It would still be a great idea though. Hopefully you are both still willing to offer the demos...

Back on topic, here is what stuck me as the most important point in this whole post was that he deemed the CB 3 slightly better in every respect. The big point for me was, he was using the Superior II DAC's as well. If I decide to go the Theta route, I will go all in and purchase their EXTREME DAC's and I should be in an even better position, yes?

Steve, as always, I appreciate your knowledge of Theta gear. Even though I know that you do have a slight bias, which I can understand, you always try and state the facts.

Thanks again!

The bullshit of what folks "hear" that they spread on the internet is just too much.
Was it you who in the past week or two at this form said that Theta outsourced either engineering or software overseas? I talked with Neil Sinclair, Theta's long time President and owner the other day, and he couldn't believe that crap like that is said

No, that was you.....

Theta used custom programmers overseas to do their Crystal software - very, very expensive - and no doubt as Theta works to implement HDMI 1.3 or later, they will need to pay a lot more money to their overseas software programmers.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8021793&&#post8021793

Stop spreading BS about Theta... OK? ;)

Shawn

:cool: :D

[QUOTE=Steve Bruzonsky]Yea, Back in 2006, I misunderstood that then Theta Sales Manager Mary Cardas (now with Sunfire) and I were discussing programming and costs and Theta considering using certain very expensive overseas programmers - the other day when I talked with Neil Sinclair, he advised that Theta did consider that but it never happened.

Yea, we all can spread BS - and look how it spreads!!! That quote was expanded here in this thread recently to say that Theta outsourced its hardware engineering overseas in an attempt to discredit Theta by someone who doesn't own and apparently would never buy Theta.

:D

Back to the topic. Jeff, now that you've lived with the Halcro a lot longer: How does it compare soundwise on HD DVDs, DVDs, redbook CD, DirecTV/DISH or cable, etc.
Can you still hear real appreciable sonic improvements on the Halcro vs. the Lexicon
MC-12????

Steve, 词典 that is as close as I could get to translating Lexicon to Chinese with Harman being up for sale and all. Chinese buying a lot of AV brands. Wondering what will happen to Harmon?

I don't want to start a new feud here, but, objectively speaking, Theta's record regarding upgrades lags far behind other manufacturers, and there's no reason to expect that it won't lag behind Halcro's. The SSP100 is a much newer piece to begin with, and was released with HDMI inputs and an output. There's still no assurance that Theta will ever have HDMI capability, at least not in any of its current surround processors.

Then, when you read the time (usually measured in years) that it takes Theta to release an upgrade whenever it does do it, it might challenge any notion that Theta is "very good" at anything when it comes to the subject of upgrades.

Nick :cool:
I wouldn't start too much. I mean for a guy with a processor with an uncertian future, you might want to "chill" a bit. Memories of Proceed are still fresh in my mind. Might be a good time to consider selling and buying the Halcro.

Current CEO of Harman International is an Indian national who is a former advisor to the Chinese government. http://www.industrialnetworking.info/news/240.asp He resigned to come to Harman, http://domainb.com/people/on_the_move/20070511_dinesh_paliwal.htm Suggest Chinese interest to me.

Bulldogger, the Chines have made SOME good stereo gear, like Consonance, and also
Raysonic. I've heard from some American CEOs of some famous
AV companies (not Theta) that they do some production in China cause they can put out the product much cheaper yet still have quality.

Bulldoggger, in fact, do you still have that PS Audio Premier Power Plant (I sure luv mine), or did you send it back to China?

I'm just havin' a bit of fun. But a Chinese interest in a major American AV company like Harman is not necessarily bad in terms of quality for U.S. home theater enthusiasts by any means - we need to wait and see what happens. From a geopolitical standpoint - on the one hand, its not good that we sell so much of our country to foreign interests, but perhaps it will promote better intenational relations because they have a stake in our country staying on our feet to buy their AV products???

Jeff. are you alive? What about an update (I already asked a few days ago) on how your Halcro sounds in DVD, HD DVD and CD compared to your prior MC-12 now that you've had more time to live with it in your system. Thanks.

Jeff's probably sitting back enjoying some great wine while he listens to his most excellent system. :)

Jim

Jeff's probably sitting back enjoying some great wine while he listens to his most excellent system. :)

Jim

Jeff's probably sitting back getting drunk on some great wine wishing he had mine or Bulldogger's systems. HAAA!!@@@@

Oh, I doubt that, he's been too busy figuring out how to install one of those Thigpen super-woofers to covet anyone else's stuff!

I wouldn't start too much. I mean for a guy with a processor with an uncertian future, you might want to "chill" a bit. Memories of Proceed are still fresh in my mind. Might be a good time to consider selling and buying the Halcro.


Okay, Bulldogger, or whatever you call yourself. Once again, do you want to bet $500 that your beloved Theta still won't have HDMI by the end of March 2008, or are you still wobbly at the knees about putting your money where your giant mouth is?

Put 'em up, kickboxer.

Nick :cool:

Okay, Bulldogger, or whatever you call yourself. Once again, do you want to bet $500 that your beloved Theta still won't have HDMI by the end of March 2008, or are you still wobbly at the knees about putting your money where your giant mouth is?

Put 'em up, kickboxer.

Nick :cool:

Come on Nick put your money where your mouth is. Offer the bet for Halcro, too.
Ya wanner offer a bet that Lexicon and Halcro won't offer a multi-channel analog section even half the quality of the Theta Six Shooter as well? Bit stick, no carrot.

Come on Nick put your money where your mouth is. Offer the bet for Halcro, too.
Ya wanner offer a bet that Lexicon and Halcro won't offer a multi-channel analog section even half the quality of the Theta Six Shooter as well? Bit stick, no carrot.

I want to bet something that can be objectively verified, such as whether avant-garde Theta offers HDMI within one year from the time they said it was urgent. For an enthusiast like you, Steve, that should be a no-brainer. Theta will surely come through, as they have been "right there" with all other upgrades, right?

I have not heard the six-shooter, but I have little doubt that what you and the two other Theta listeners think you're hearing as some revelation is nothing more than high resolution audio that you had no ability to hear in the past. SACD and DVD-Audio were good several years ago, too, although you wouldn't have known that. Of course, in the good Theta way, they came out with an engineering Frankenstein known as the six-shooter, just in time for you to start listening to each of those formats as they've been put on life-support.

Yes, KKR purchased HSG, which owns Lexicon. Think anyone's interested in buying Theta?

Nick :cool:

I want to bet something that can be objectively verified, such as whether avant-garde Theta offers HDMI within one year from the time they said it was urgent. For an enthusiast like you, Steve, that should be a no-brainer. Theta will surely come through, as they have been "right there" with all other upgrades, right?


Nick :cool:

And Halcro will sure come through, as they have been "right there" in the past year or two, right?

Put up or shut up. Offer the bet with Halcro. Why pick only on Theta - ya just hate Theta, don't ya? Why don't you admit it. Be honest.

Actually, I think he's "putting up". He's being pretty bold spotting you guys to March 2008. In fact, I don't have a dog in the race, but if I were more of a gambler I'd take his bet. That doesn't seem like an ambitious deadline as long as Theta is determined to make it.

For Halcro though I'd give odds; I really do think they're further along. After all, they already have HDMI audio and HDCP protocol support in place. So they have a head start on at least some of the key protocol issues. It might take a board spin but that's not so bad.

Okay, Bulldogger, or whatever you call yourself. Once again, do you want to bet $500 that your beloved Theta still won't have HDMI by the end of March 2008, or are you still wobbly at the knees about putting your money where your giant mouth is?

Put 'em up, kickboxer.

Nick :cool:
Wrong tree. I skew the discussion because I believe 90% of people really would be completely happy with the sound quality of the CBIII and Superior II dacs or higher and I'm always ranting about the Six Shooter. The HDMI upgrade will be a big plus for them because the Theta CBIII is top shelf relative to other pre-pros that is when it gets a 24/96 signal. Really some nice sound that will make everyone but the fanatics like me happy. Never got a comment on which Casablanca version you used? I have said this many times before. I got into the surround processor thing because I was excited by the prospect of DVD-A and multi-channel music. It never really happened. When I got married in 2001, my wife got into the hometheater thing. She even forced the purchase of the JVC RS1 projector and my old projector strating to malfunction as well. I wanted to finish off buying some more Mcintosh MC501 monoblocks. I have tried to weasel out of home theater all together several times but my wife enjoys it and really gets pissed if I even suggest going to a music only room. Wake me when they finally get some franking hi-rez audio on these formats. I'm talking 24/96 at 5.1 at min. To be honest, I will have to budget money for some more monoblocks and a better SACD player. Anyone reading my comments should keep my bias in mind for music. If Theta released an HDMI upgrade this year, I will not be ready.. Too soon for my budget, at least if I spend reasonably and invest in my mutual funds, etc. Never been afraid. Find something I care about and I'll bet you. Tell you what, I'll bet you 500.00 on the flip of a coin or anything if you want to bet me on.

Find something I care about and I'll bet you. Tell you what, I'll bet you 500.00 on the flip of a coin or anything if you want to bet me on.

Coin's in the air . . . call it ;)

Nick :cool:

Bulldogger, the Chines have made SOME good stereo gear, like Consonance, and also
Raysonic. I've heard from some American CEOs of some famous
AV companies (not Theta) that they do some production in China cause they can put out the product much cheaper yet still have quality.

Bulldoggger, in fact, do you still have that PS Audio Premier Power Plant (I sure luv mine), or did you send it back to China?
.
The PS Audio Premier is a keeper. I built a 40 foot power cord out of shielded Belden cable to connect my projector. I wanted to add the surge protection of the Power plant.

The PS Audio Premier is a keeper. I built a 40 foot power cord out of shielded Belden cable to connect my projector. I wanted to add the surge protection of the Power plant.

It it was made here in the U.S. it would have cost a bundle more. It surely is a KEEPER!!!@@@

It looks like the party moved next door since the cops shut down the other one.;)

Since the Theta thread got locked and the kids still want to fight it is here and now.

So I have to ask.....

Is there available now at this day and time an HDMI multi channel connection upgrade available for the Halcro pre-pro's?

If so how much is it?

Has Halcro talked about internal decoding of the DD and DTS lossless codecs? Is there an release date for these too? Price?

Now for the Theta CBIII and lossless decoding and pass through to the Six Shooter questions.

I for one find the sonics of the HD-DVD analogs out to the Six shooter to be far better than the lossey DD and DTS via toslink or SPDIF. So for me this is a move in the right direction.

Would HDMI sound better with the CBIII's extreme DAC's I would like to think so but as of now it is not an option. So I will have to be happy with the seriously improved sound I have now. Not such a bad situation to be in as I have the best sound.... so far.

Here is an observation that MAY help explain why folks stick with Theta and are willing to wait for them to offer what a couple here seem to feel is their right to have the newest tech NOW!!!!

While ON PAPER an interface MAY look to be the best thing yet, in REALITY it may be WORSE than the OLD interface it is designed to replace.

Why is this so?

As with all things new there is a learning curve as to how to implement the new tech into the real world. Often the first go round is not optimised and thus needs to be done better. It costs a lot of money to bring to market a new, what ever. Often there are huge financial pressures applied to recoup the development costs and so some things are left for a future date.

Case in point the first generation HDTV's were understood to be the worst HDTV's of all HDTV's. The same is true of most if not all things. We learn that there are better ways to make things work or sound better. This is how it goes.

Theta has a reputation for being at or near the top of the sonic pyramid. In order to be there they will never be the first out the gate. They let others faulter and stumble and then look for ways to "Make a better mouse trap".

Since they learn from OTHERS mistakes they are in a far better position to deliver a better implementation of the feature, hence it sounds better.

DO NOT buy Theta if you, in your own impatience, have to have the bleeding cutting edge. They are not concerned with being first just being right and the best.

I, as well as my customers, find that something done well and that delivers superior sonics in spades is worth waiting for and worth spending more on. Having this product being upgradable just adds value to the product. Theta is this type of product. Interestingly so is Vandersteen Audio another brand I sell.


Lastly each has their own needs and wants and price that they can afford to pay. Theta is more money than Halcro but it is also more adaptable and complicated.

Is it the ONLY piece for TRUE audiophiles? NO!!!

Like all things you need to determine what your needs and budget are and then and only then select the products that fit those circumstances.

I hate it when folks go out and buy something ASSUMING it does this or that and afterwards find out it does not do it. While I could say they were foolish and should have read the instruction manual first, I also feel that the spec sheet could have been more clear on this or that.

Nothing makes me madder than to have to redo or sell at a loss and buy new to get what was wanted in the first place. Even IF you have so much money that you could care less. I like doing it once and right and moving on to the next project.

I skew the discussion because I believe 90% of people really would be completely happy with the sound quality of the CBIII and Superior II dacs or higher and I'm always ranting about the Six Shooter.Bulldogger, I honestly think you are absolutely right about this, as long as the source material is six-channel, and you have 6 full-range speakers. But many potentially beneficial opportunities open up if you can do further processing of the signal: room correction, bass management, matrixing of stereo sources, matrixing of 5.1 sources to 7.1, digital crossovers and multi-amping, etc. etc. Without a digital source (or an A/D conversion) you just can't do these things.

Again, I really don't care who gets multichannel PCM over HDMI working first; I'm optimisitic that I'll have several to choose from when it's time to build my theater. Hopefully Theta will be among them. My listening experiences with Theta have been positive... But they all need to get on the stick and produce!

Since the Theta thread got locked and the kids still want to fight it is here and now.

Hi Allen. In order to bolster whatever shill-point you ultimately make, what identity will you invent for the new anonymous poster, to back you up? "VideoBill" (clev-er) was such a hit!


I for one find the sonics of the HD-DVD analogs out to the Six shooter to be far better than the lossey DD and DTS via toslink or SPDIF. So for me this is a move in the right direction.

Would HDMI sound better with the CBIII's extreme DAC's I would like to think so but as of now it is not an option. So I will have to be happy with the seriously improved sound I have now. Not such a bad situation to be in as I have the best sound.... so far.

And, coincidentally, you sell Theta gear! VideoBill likes Theta, too.


As with all things new there is a learning curve as to how to implement the new tech into the real world. Often the first go round is not optimised and thus needs to be done better. It costs a lot of money to bring to market a new, what ever. Often there are huge financial pressures applied to recoup the development costs and so some things are left for a future date.

I see . . . so it's a good thing that Theta couldn't implement an analog multichannel bypass until years after everyone had done it . . . and, of course, it's a good thing that they're waiting patiently to "do it right" with HDMI, by awaiting HDMI 1.3, even though it's a no-brainer that HDMI 1.3 adds practically nothing to the capabilities of any surround processor.

Case in point the first generation HDTV's were understood to be the worst HDTV's of all HDTV's. The same is true of most if not all things. We learn that there are better ways to make things work or sound better. This is how it goes.

Theta has a reputation for being at or near the top of the sonic pyramid. In order to be there they will never be the first out the gate. They let others faulter and stumble and then look for ways to "Make a better mouse trap".

Since they learn from OTHERS mistakes they are in a far better position to deliver a better implementation of the feature, hence it sounds better.

Perhaps Theta should wait until the world ends, and then it will have all the information . . . "Digital done right." As for the sonic pyramid business, have you checked with VideoBill on this?

Having this product being upgradable just adds value to the product. Theta is this type of product. Interestingly so is Vandersteen Audio another brand I sell.

Hmmm . . . Theta, great. Vandersteen, great. You sell both. There seems to be a common thread here . . .

Lastly each has their own needs and wants and price that they can afford to pay. Theta is more money than Halcro but it is also more adaptable and complicated.

Is it the ONLY piece for TRUE audiophiles? NO!!!

Let me guess. You carry another line?

Nick :cool:

I see . . . so it's a good thing that Theta couldn't implement an analog multichannel bypass until years after everyone had done it . . . and, of course, it's a good thing that they're waiting patiently to "do it right" with HDMI, by awaiting HDMI 1.3, even though it's a no-brainer that HDMI 1.3 adds practically nothing to the capabilities of any surround processor.



Nick, Theta took that extra time to get the analog multi-channel done right, and thats why it sounds so great. But how would you know. You're busy dissing Theta and Theta luvers. I ain't no Theta dealer. Yet I luv Theta.

Mebbe HDMI 1.3 is a no brainer to you. But just wait, you buy a HDMI 1.1 processor; a few years later you get a HDMI 1.3 display; and you'll be dissing the display manufacturer for not providing a cheap upgrade to HDMI 1.3.

You should change your name to Nick Da Disser((()))&&&&

Nick, by the way, although I no longe have the Vandersteen subwoofers that I once had, Vandersteen is one of the best sounding, most for the buck speaker lines out there. Why would you give any dealer crap about carrying a top notch line like that?

Come on Nick, lets get this thread closed. Say something.

I heard that Jeff sold his Halcro and went back to his Lexicon. How do I know this? Because he has disappeared from this thread. So if we don't hear from Jeff in the next week, this must be true. HAAAA!

Come on Nick, lets get this thread closed. Say something.

I heard that Jeff sold his Halcro and went back to his Lexicon. How do I know this? Because he has disappeared from this thread. So if we don't hear from Jeff in the next week, this must be true. HAAAA!

This used to be a good thread but now it is getting too confrontational. How about we all agree that both Theta and Halcro make quality products and leave it at that.

I did not single out your quote Steve to blame you, it was just the last post on this thread. I do agree with you Steve that maybe it is best to close this thread.

Better to be listening to our wonderful systems than sitting in front of a computer calling out others for theres.

Happy listening all :D

Nick, Theta took that extra time to get the analog multi-channel done right, and thats why it sounds so great. But how would you know. You're busy dissing Theta and Theta luvers. I ain't no Theta dealer. Yet I luv Theta.

So does VideoBill. Maybe we can get some posts from new-member "AudioSteve" to support you. Alternatively, maybe Theta can join the 21st century and give some objective credibility to its Luvers.

Mebbe HDMI 1.3 is a no brainer to you. But just wait, you buy a HDMI 1.1 processor; a few years later you get a HDMI 1.3 display; and you'll be dissing the display manufacturer for not providing a cheap upgrade to HDMI 1.3.

Steve, your willingness to wait years is music (via Superior DAC? Extreme?) to Theta's ears. Of course, it brings to mind a similar clinking of Kool-Aid glasses a few years back in Guyana . . .

You should change your name to Nick Da Disser((()))&&&&

I will do just that. As long as Neil and Evelyn tell me it is right, it must be so . . .

Nick :cool:

Nick, you're just pissed cause the Cavaliers got whacked by the Spurs tonight. You know what, I'm pissed too. I want to see Lebron do some good stuff - I guess he's waitin' for the HDMI upgrade too. Does that make Lebron an idiot like me?

Notice how anyone who disagrees with your vaunted opinion is someone you make fun of?
And a company that does something different than you want them to is way behind the times and not worthwhile.

Talk about being over opinionated.

This used to be a good thread but now it is getting too confrontational. How about we all agree that both Theta and Halcro make quality products and leave it at that.

I did not single out your quote Steve to blame you, it was just the last post on this thread. I do agree with you Steve that maybe it is best to close this thread.

Better to be listening to our wonderful systems than sitting in front of a computer calling out others for theres.

Happy listening all :D I like you. I've often said Halcro makes a quality product. Absolutely. The gravediggers that cause the problems most of the time aren't interested in owning Halcro or Theta.

Notice how anyone who disagrees with your vaunted opinion is someone you make fun of?
And a company that does something different than you want them to is way behind the times and not worthwhile.

Talk about being over opinionated.
Steve, you hit the nail on the coffin. Like I posted in the locked threat, this dude is nothing more than a hot air bag. Indeed, all you have to do is look at his posting signature, with the cool sunshade icon. As we say in Oakland, n!gg*r please.

Steve, you hit the nail on the coffin. Like I posted in the locked threat, this dude is nothing more than a hot air bag. Indeed, all you have to do is look at his posting signature, with the cool sunshade icon. As we say in Oakland, n!gg*r please.

And yet, dude, you were another one that wanted so much to talk, as long as it was free. So how's this, dude, I'll give you odds on what we discussed in the other thread. $600-$500? If that's too steep, $300-$250? Or how about $150-$125? Or are you just another loudmouth that relishes the idea of free speech . . . as long, of course, as it's free?

The discussion, of course, had to do with people making claims regarding Theta's ability to produce HDMI capability in a CBIII. Do you own a CBIII? Do you own a Theta processor? Or are you just loitering?

What's the word on that, back in Oakland?

Nick :cool: (just for you, dude)

And yet, dude, you were another one that wanted so much to talk, as long as it was free.
Huh?
So how's this, dude, I'll give you odds on what we discussed in the other thread. $600-$500? If that's too steep, $300-$250? Or how about $150-$125?
A classic macho inferiority complex. Textbook.
Or are you just another loudmouth that relishes the idea of free speech . . . as long, of course, as it's free?
Just when one thinks they've heard it all. Apparently there is something wrong with free speech. Pathetic.
This discussion, of course, had to do with people making claims regarding Theta's ability to produce HDMI capability in a CBIII. Do you own a CBIII? Do you own a Theta processor? Or are you just loitering?
Irrelevant straw man attack. Steve hit the nail on its head. Free speech, a concept you introduced into this thread, is fine so long as one agrees with you, otherwise its condescension and ridicule. I could care less whether you agree. The collective here can decide for themselves.

What's the word on that, back in Oakland?
Well, right now in Oakland, the word is today the A's were 1 out away from being no-hit by Curt and the Red Sox.

And yet, dude, you were another one that wanted so much to talk, as long as it was free. So how's this, dude, I'll give you odds on what we discussed in the other thread. $600-$500? If that's too steep, $300-$250? Or how about $150-$125? Or are you just another loudmouth that relishes the idea of free speech . . . as long, of course, as it's free?

The discussion, of course, had to do with people making claims regarding Theta's ability to produce HDMI capability in a CBIII. Do you own a CBIII? Do you own a Theta processor? Or are you just loitering?

What's the word on that, back in Oakland?

Nick :cool: (just for you, dude)

Nick aren't you one of the Lexicon owners? You post a lot in the SMR Lexicon forum. That says it all. You luv your Lex (and that's ok) but you shout down anyone else's with whatever convoluted arguments you can develop. We're not in court now so lets cool it!!@@

"but you shout down anyone else's with whatever convoluted arguments you can develop. "

Look in the mirror.....

Shawn

Gentlemen

challenge the information in a post: not the poster

Thank you

For those just joining us, this particular discussion is an offshoot of a thread, now closed, in which Steve posed the question of whether Theta's failure to adopt HDMI would deter people from purchasing Theta. The thread was an obvious (and, I think, admitted) attempt to get Theta to adopt HDMI. The thread is found here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=732702&highlight=Theta++HDMI and is required reading if you want to understand the debates that ensued.

The thread was often populated by a handful of people that owned CBIII units, as well as people that owned Lexicon MC12 units. What transpired thereafter (don't take my word for it . . . read the thread) were the normal "my ---- is bigger than yours" comments that often attend conversations among such enthusiasts.

What rankled the Lexicon owners were the persistent comments that suggested "objective" evidence that the Theta was "sonically better" than the Lexicon. Often, the Lexicon owners would challenge the objective nature of those comments, and request some objective standard by which such comments could be based. Again, do not take my word for it, simply go to the thread and see if I'm characterizing it accurately.

In my attempt to focus on what was purely objective--such as whether Theta would have HDMI in a CBIII, as they'd promised--I suggested that Theta's track record for upgrades was not good, and that it would be a long time . . . if ever.

The Theta enthusiasts assured me I did not know what I was talking about, and, in an attempt to impart some greater meaning to the discussion, I suggested a healthy wager, so we could objectively demonstrate just how profoundly the Theta apologists believed their claims. My original proposal for the wager is in the thread, and, for what it's worth, it remains open to any takers through . . . say, through the end of this month.

With that aside, let the discussions continue.

Thanks,

Nick :cool:

For those just joining us, this particular discussion is an offshoot of a thread, now closed, in which Steve posed the question of whether Theta's failure to adopt HDMI would deter people from purchasing Theta. The thread was an obvious (and, I think, admitted) attempt to get Theta to adopt HDMI. The thread is found here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=732702&highlight=Theta++HDMI and is required reading if you want to understand the debates that ensued.

The thread was often populated by a handful of people that owned CBIII units, as well as people that owned Lexicon MC12 units. What transpired thereafter (don't take my word for it . . . read the thread) were the normal "my ---- is bigger than yours" comments that often attend conversations among such enthusiasts.

Nick :cool:

Nick, the thread's purpose was to get a discussion going re HDMI to help educate Theta about how us Theta enthusiasts, and perhaps others who might be interested in Theta or competing products, view HDMI and how important it is to us now or in the future. I understand from Theta that they found some very good information in the thread which has helped them to reach decisions re what they want to do and when re HDMI. And yes, as you said, another purpose of the thread was to help move Theta to HDMI, although I personally did not have specific intent re time frame, but yes, I do want it provided it works and gives me even better sound quality than the Six Shooter.

My Prepro can beat up your prepro. No it can't. Yes it can.

Sock, bash, POW!!!

Your a poo-poo head. No I'm not. Yes you are... Well, your a double poo-poo head...

Did that capture the last few pages of this thread? :rolleyes:

BTW, I thought is was Halcro report thread. Would it be out of line to talk about the Halcro? :eek:

.

What rankled the Lexicon owners were the persistent comments that suggested "objective" evidence that the Theta was "sonically better" than the Lexicon. Often, the Lexicon owners would challenge the objective nature of those comments, and request some objective standard by which such comments could be based. Again, do not take my word for it, simply go to the thread and see if I'm characterizing it accurately.

Nick :cool:

Nick, you are overgeneralizing.

I recall one or two Theta owners saying they demod or had Lexicon and did feel the CB3 sounded better in their systems and for their sonic purposes.

I recall that I have stated that I've heard numerous demos at shows of Lex and Theta, that Theta has always sounded good, and I've not been impressed by Lex. That is a true statement. Now maybe the Lex always had poor setup, components etc. that is possible. But I was telling you my honest experience.

So what? Jeff has stated that in his system, a CB2 sounded no better than his Lex.

Lex owners are overzealous in challenging anyone who subjectively likes another processor in their system over Lex. You in particular. Get over it.

My Prepro can beat up your prepro. No it can't. Yes it can.

Sock, bash, POW!!!

Your a poo-poo head. No I'm not. Yes you are... Well, your a double poo-poo head...

Did that capture the last few pages of this thread? :rolleyes:

BTW, I thought is was Halcro report thread. Would it be out of line to talk about the Halcro? :eek:
You had me LOL! Great post. Sometimes simple language, even childish (e.g., poo-poo head), is the most effective means of communication. Kudos.

In my attempt to focus on what was purely objective--such as whether Theta would have HDMI in a CBIII, as they'd promised--I suggested that Theta's track record for upgrades was not good, and that it would be a long time . . . if ever.

The Theta enthusiasts assured me I did not know what I was talking about, and, in an attempt to impart some greater meaning to the discussion, I suggested a healthy wager, so we could objectively demonstrate just how profoundly the Theta apologists believed their claims. My original proposal for the wager is in the thread, and, for what it's worth, it remains open to any takers through . . . say, through the end of this month.


Nick :cool:

Actually, Theta's track records for upgrades is very good, just very slow. HDMI multi-channel is of paramount importance to you. Theta doesn't fit your perceived needs and desires. Some folks like Theta more than your lovely Lex. So you criticize and put down Theta. You call us Theta luvers "apologists". Hey, then you are a Lex "apologist". Ya wanna do a wager that Lex will NEVER do an analog multi-channel input of near the quality of Theta's Six Shootter - I would win that bet. But I would never collect because the sun could burn out and the bet wouldn't be over, that's how much time we'd have to give Lex on that. But that would be another totally stupid bet. Lex is geared primarily to top notch home theater but not necessarily also the audiophiles among us. Their market isn't
having the very best analog multi-channel. And to their credit they've already got the HDMI multi-channel working which is what their customers want. Good for them.

Ya wanna do a wager that Lex will NEVER do an analog multi-channel input of near the quality of Theta's Six Shootter - I would win that bet. But I would never collect because the sun could burn out and the bet wouldn't be over, that's how much time we'd have to give Lex on that.

Precisely what I mean about subjective comments being elevated to something objective. Translation: Theta sounds better than Lexicon. Proof? Ask Steve.

But that would be another totally stupid bet. Lex is geared primarily to top notch home theater but not necessarily also the audiophiles among us. Their market isn't
having the very best analog multi-channel. And to their credit they've already got the HDMI multi-channel working which is what their customers want. Good for them.

Ahh, vintage Steve. Note the inclusion of "not necessarily also the audiophiles among us." Lacking objective ability to demonstrate superiority, those golden ears get pinched again.

I've already told you that, years back when I chose between the Proceed PAV/PDSD and the Theta, I preferred the Proceed. I then migrated to Krell, and, hands down, the best processor in my system--for music, music, music, which is my primary reference listening--was the Lexicon MC12. But I hate to bring that up, because it's such a useless piece of discussion--I can't prove to you that the Lexicon sounded better, because I can't put my ears on you.

What you continually attempt to assert is something you can't demonstrate objectively, and you resist discussion of those things that can be discussed objectively--such as what features the Theta has or doesn't; such as how much sense it makes for Theta to use HDMI 1.3 as a logical reason for not implementing HDMI at all; such as Theta's track record regarding upgrades at all. Instead, we get these ham-handed swipes at Lexicon, always careful to insist on the juvenile proposition (however poorly disguised) that, after all, Theta "sounds" better than Lexicon, or, for that matter, anything else.

There are philosophers who will tell you that you cannot prove that the law of gravity will always persist, and it is theoretically possible that one can drop a brick from a second floor window, and it won't fall. Just ask one of those philosophers to stand underneath that window, though, and you'll get an idea for the real quality or credibility of their propositions.

When you continue to make wild claims of superiority regarding Theta, I enjoy testing the quality of those claims. That was why I proposed a bet, for those who were certain that this company would step up to the HDMI plate, and made a very generous proposition--I gave Theta a full year to put HDMI in one CBIII (working HDMI, of course) in the world, in a consumer's home. That was when the discussion shifted back to the golden ears, much in the same way none of those philosophers want to stand underneath my window when I drop the bricks.

So, as you continue to divert the conversation to your audiophile ears, let us plainly see this for the dodge tactic that it is, since you've never been able to offer a shred of credible and objective indicia of Theta's superiority in any meaningful way, always resorting to the sonic bliss that you and a handful of others experience, and which, of course, must be true. You have, after all said it.

Nick :cool:

Nick, your pompous self-justification for jumping in Theta threads and bulldoggin' us speaks for itself.

ENJOY!

"Lex is geared primarily to top notch home theater"

No, Lexicon's focus has primarily been music, always has been. One could point out all the research Lexicon has done on the psychoacoustics of music listening, why halls sound like they do, how to recreate that in the home/studio, the dozens of AES articles on musical issues, that like 70% of all studio music has gone through Lexicon gear, the hundreds of talks/presentations (all over the world) on music topics...etc...etc....

... or one could ignore all that.

Theater pays the bills they sell a lot of units for that purpose but their passion is music. Plenty of Lexicon owners own them *because* of what they can do with music.

Shawn

Anybody seen a Halcro around here?

I have......the thread should be full of new info very soon.

Is this because of the HDMI Audio upgrade that is due very soon?

Even hearing the price and when the upgrades start would be interesting. You aren't a beta tester of this are you? ;-)

I have......the thread should be full of new info very soon.

"Lex is geared primarily to top notch home theater"

No, Lexicon's focus has primarily been music, always has been. One could point out all the research Lexicon has done on the psychoacoustics of music listening, why halls sound like they do, how to recreate that in the home/studio, the dozens of AES articles on musical issues, that like 70% of all studio music has gone through Lexicon gear, the hundreds of talks/presentations (all over the world) on music topics...etc...etc....

... or one could ignore all that.

Theater pays the bills they sell a lot of units for that purpose but their passion is music. Plenty of Lexicon owners own them *because* of what they can do with music.

Shawn

Shawn, congrats. I interpet one thing. You point out another without even digging me. Wouldn't it be nice if folks on this forum (me, too) could do this more often?

I have......the thread should be full of new info very soon.

Mebbe Jeff's been quiet cause his Halcro was being upgraded???

Jeff,nice to hear from you.

I wish....not upgraded yet but D-day is approaching...We'll see.....

Coin's in the air . . . call it ;)

Nick :cool:
come on Nick, am I to trust a lawyer, sorry Steve :D, to tell me what side landed up :D ?

The bland what HD-DVD and Blu-ray players are you using?

come on Nick, am I to trust a lawyer, sorry Steve :D, to tell me what side landed up :D ?

Come on Bulldogger. When it comes to gamblin', there are those who do or don't, whether they are lawyers, doctors, or just plain mathaf-ers. Lets leave us poor barristers out of it. HA!

I have vehement disagreements with Nick. But I also give him credit. He posts with his REAL name, when few do. Anyone can do a web search on him. He doesn't hide anything. And with a name like Satullo, I betcha his family's got some really good Italian recipes.

XA-2 and Panasonic.

The Halcro does have pretty good Bass Management. The crossover settings go down to 20hz, and you have the option of send the bass signals to both the speaker and the sub if you like. It is pretty flexible (although all speakers have to cross at the same frequency).

For digital sources, I have Halcro run the speakers full range, then send any bass signals below 25hz (the -6db point of my mains) to the subwoffer as well. I know this bucks conventional wisdom, but with my B&W 802D - SVS Sub combo it provides the best blend and best mix I have found.

The 802Ds have terrific quality bass down to ~25hz, so I let them run full range, then let the sub pick up anything below that point. It porvides a good compromise between quality of bass, and bass extension.

This wouldn't be possible with a lot of other Prepro, so in this regard the Halcro fits my setup well.

Goodsonics

Looking on the B&W site they list the 802d at 34-28K +or- 3bd and down to 27hz at -6 db. My guess would be that 24hz is about -9db.( nearly 1/2 as loud as a flat response is).

If I were you I would cross them over to the subs around 40hz. This will be room dependant and should be determined by actual room measurements. If you have your speakers out in the room at least 24", as you should, then you will find the bass will be far more powerful with less holes. Again measure it to be sure. I have also seen recording engineers tilt the B&W's back to help gain the time alignment aspect which let's them sound better. Try it on the left and right and see if your music doesn't sound more real. The goal is to get the tweeter to vertically align with the mid range and woofers. The lower freq's drivers sound comes from behind the dust covers in the middle of the drivers.

I only commented here not to engage you in an argument but I know the B&W product is a little lean on the bottom end. So I was certain that the 802d did not go as low as you were saying thus the look up on the B&W site and it's verification of my listening experience with their product.

What amps are you using with them?

Anything other than Krell will give you even less bass then the site claims. B&W uses krell to voice their speakers and I bet they use them for their measuring results too.


Shawn

I'm sure that music is VERY important to Lexicon. If not then it should be. ;)

However, if what you say is true regarding 70% of studios using Lexicon gear and let's assume that's true, I would contend that most if not all of these studios are not audiophile studios. They are main stream or less studios and we all know the quality of music recordings coming from main stream studios today.

I would be surprised if high quality studios delivering audiophile recordings are even 10% of all studios. These are the studios I would what know if they use Lexicon gear in and what it is they are using from Lexicon. My guess the MC12 is not there, but who knows. ;)

As a side point I have had the pleasure to take audio courses taught by Dr. Floyd Toole(SP) at CEDIA(Harmon Intrntl head acoustition) and after them have discussed some of their testing results. While a lot of what they are testing is interesting and of high quality you also have to see that it is self serving to their overall marketing to the public in general.

One example... I asked him about Time and Phase coherent speakers and he said in their tests it was of no noticeable difference and so then was an non issue. I asked what they used for listening or test material so as to better understand the test. He said human voices.

This told me that the test was not very good. How so?

The freq's generated by the human voice is well within the range of an single driver and so the time and phase is one and is not truly and issue or fully tested. When I pointed this out to him he had nothing to say. This was telling to me as he ALWAYS has something to say. Since JBL, revel etc don't offer time and phase coherent speakers as they are hard to build and cost more it is not surprising the test was not that good. If they did offer them I bet the test would have been better. ;)

In an perfect world we would have recordings that we heard being made and perfect memories that would allow us to be sure as to how it sounded so when played through a system we would know with reasonable certainty that the play back was just like the real performance.

Sadly this is not the case. There is a lot of things going on in our heads and with our individual ears to muck with the listening experience both live and recorded. Add to that the gear and most importantly the room and our emotional state at the time of listening and you have a "witches brew" beyond belief.

Not all listening parameters are measurable. Some are. For those we measure we can tune for and make certain adjustments . For those not measurable we must rely on our ears and trained listening skills. Here is where science ends and true art begins.

I have found through the taking of acoustic courses at CEDIA taught by some of the better folks in their fields that the acoustics they are advocating for theater in application don't work well for 2 channel music. These theater rooms are far too over damped and are sterile in their presentation of good recorded music play back.

I have also found that if you design the room with good music sound as a priority it is also a great sounding room to talk in and watch a movie in with amazing acoustics equal to or better than the room designed for movies only.

I have concluded that the current trend is therefore going in a wrong direction IF MUSIC is at all important to the owner/listener.

For me music is an true passion and is also soothing to my world rushed, and over crowded soul. It allows me the emotional connection to the performance and the regenerating of my biological battery. Sounds corny I know but it is like a great massage for the soul.

All this adds to the reasons why I use and sell Theta. It does music EXTERMLY well and movies EXTERMELY well. The best of BOTH worlds.