Home Lighting Automation [Text View]

dstrack

10-06-06, 11:32 AM

DiCecco

10-07-06, 05:01 PM

I installed Insteon light switches to control my theater lights . I liked it so much I bought more switches and a second controler for my bedroom. G o to www. Smarthome .com . They carry all sorts of Insteon , X-10, and other products.

AnthemAVM

10-08-06, 12:57 PM

Have you looked at the Radio RA by Lutron?

dstrack

10-09-06, 08:25 AM

I have looked at Radio RA as well... but I'm not sure if they provide feedback? A few people have told me that they are a little quirky - sometimes they don't respond to commands...

robertmee

10-09-06, 09:48 AM

I'm in the same boat as you and have also been researching several alternatives....Mine is a retrofit so I have discounted wired solutions. Here's what I've found so far:

Lutron Homeworks: Supports both wired and wireless. Provides for two-way control and feedback. Most expensive. Not typically sold to DIYers.

Lutron Radio Ra: Wireless only. Provides for some two-way control and feedback. You cannot query for Dimmer levels if someone changes it locally at the switch. Not as expensive as HW but still pricey. Sold to DIYers.

Zigbee/Zwave: Wireless technolgy. Some reliability issues. In lawsuit with Lutron over patent infringement.

UPB: Powerline technology. Reliable. Most expensive Powerline solution but not quite as expensive as Radio Ra. Big Beef with delayed reaction to light switches. You hit a button and upto a 1/2 second to 1 second delay for light to come on.

Insteon: Powerline and RF technology combined. Most promising but most disappointing. Lots of problems with failed hardware and buggy firmware. Supposedly the latest firmware versions have addressed many problems but the jury is still out. Much less expensive than UPB.

X-10: Most inexpensive but least reliable, although ardent X-10 users might argue that point.

dstrack

10-09-06, 10:52 AM

So... Lutron Homeworks seems to be the best that you've found? I'm not necessarilly a DIYer - would definitely need some professional help... Does Homeworks need a main "brain" station where everything is wired/connected to?

I'm sorry to hear that feedback about Insteon... that really seemed like the way to go for me... I am also dealing with an existing home so I'm looking at the wireless options as well... and I have no patience for delays or failed commands so it looks like Lutron or Insteon (assuming they've fixed the problems) are the best bets.

fletch999

10-09-06, 01:07 PM

dstrack

10-09-06, 01:27 PM

Vantage looks pretty nice... going to try to find a dealer in my area and see what they say - thanks.

mcascio

10-09-06, 06:17 PM

I am looking to automate all the lighting in my home... both outdoors and indoors.

I've looked at a number of products and want to make sure that it is reliable and flexible. I've heard that many X10 products don't always work and do not provide feedback... I don't plan on doing any touchpanels, but would like to control lighting (and eventually security system and climate control) from any PC on the network and I'd like the ability to create scenes as well as see feedback from the devices (able to transmit its current status i.e. lights on or off)

The lastest company I've been looking at is Insteon. Anyone have any experience here? Easy to control? Easy to set up scenes? What type of devices should I use for outdoor lights that have control panels outside as opposed to typical light switches?

Any experience with climate control thermostats that have similar abilities? ...and lastly security system panels?

Hi dstrack,
Insteon and Vantage are on opposite sides of the pricing spectrum. So depending on your budget - your decision will be fairly easily. We, Cinemar, recently released our Insteon plugin. We also have a Vantage plugin, so which ever lighting system you choose you'll be in business as far as controlling them from a networked PC. Insteon has now been around for a while and it's gone through the development paces from Smarthome to the point that it's working really good.

For climate control/thermostats and security - take a peek at the ElkM1 and their thermostat module. My guess is Insteon will be unveiling thermostats in the future as well.

Hope this helps.

jkv

10-10-06, 08:07 AM

dstrack

10-10-06, 11:52 AM

I'm aware that Lutron and Vantage are significantly more $$ than Insteon... I'm fairly certain I've narrowed it down to either of those two products. I am going to be speaking with a local Vantage dealer today and will have him over to the house soon to check it out and price it out for me.... Probably do the same with someone representing Lutron... Not really sure what the major differences are between the two but they both seem very flexible and scalable... and high quality... I'll post my findings. Thanks for all the responses!

Sendero

10-11-06, 01:50 PM

Just as another data point, I recently put in Insteon in my house (also retrofit). I was unsure of it at first but for my needs it works pretty well. It took me a bit to figure out that I could setup a button as a direct controller for other lights instead of needing to program 'events' in the HouseLinc software but once I got that figure out I'm very happy with it. This weekend I'll be counting up all the other switches that I want to purchase to cover the other key parts of the house. Currently I only have master bedroom, office, and family room covered.

The only thing that its lacking for me right now is the ability to have a wireless remote control for it. I know there is a CQC plug-in for Insteon and I have purchased CQC but I just haven't set it all up yet. Once I do that I should be able to use my wireless pocketPCs to control the lights (hopefully).

ctviggen

10-11-06, 02:23 PM

I personally have not had problems with X10, and I know Insteon supports X10. I will likely install Insteon also.

trek2004

10-17-06, 11:11 PM

I have wired my home with Insteon devices and highly recommend them.
To control them, I have found the following freeware, used in conjuction with the PC Controller - USB module works really well:

http://www.kenmill.net/PublicInsteon/

dstrack

10-20-06, 12:51 PM

I had a Vantage Dealer at the house the other day and I'm now waiting for a proposal. Assuming I do it... it looks like Vantage is what I'm looking for, but the only thing I'm lacking is software. I know people refer to XLobby and CQC as DIY solutions... and from what I understand Vantage has their own software as well (although it seems you need to buy their hardware to run it?). How do I know what software solutions are compatible with Vantage? Do CQC and/or XLobby work with Vantage? I've checked out some of the conversations on this forum as well as some other sites and I can't seem to get my arms around it... Thanks

dstrack

10-20-06, 12:58 PM

Also look at Vantage Controls Radio Link. As robust (and expensive) as Homeworks, also not a DIY solution, but bulletproof reliable. Has a lot more automation (of other sub systems) built in to system than Homeworks. HVAC and AV, touchscreens, very nice keypads etc.

fletch999 - Have you implemented Vantage? I think this is my solution, but want to make sure there are some decent software packages available that are compatible with it... for use on XP or even a Media Center PC Plugin?

Dean Roddey

10-20-06, 01:24 PM

A product like CQC goes way beyond what any software from Vantage is going to do for you. If all you want to do is lighting, then perhaps all you need is the software for the lighting product. But automation is way more than that, and if you want to do those other things (e.g. media management, multi-zone audio, weather data, traffic cams, custom touch screens, etc...), then you need to layer a product like CQC over the Vantage system.

There is a Vantage driver that will be out in the 2.0 version that's in beta now.

dstrack

10-20-06, 02:11 PM

Dean - Thanks that helps alot... Right now I'll be implementing lighting, climate control and security. Some cams and weather data would be nice, but definitely not a requirement for Phase 1. Media Management and multi-zone audio is already taken care of to my liking (Sonos for audio and Media Center PCs/Xbox 360s for video - automated enough for me). I look forward to checking out CQC and the Vantage driver. Thanks.

truaudiophile

10-25-06, 05:21 PM

mcascio,
Vantage has another wireless type system that is in development now that will be available sometime soon. There will be another alternative to Radiolink. My guess is a zigbee type device.

Dean, You are so far uninformed on the Vantage product, that I am losing respect for you in the way you are plugging your product Over them.

I am holding a 12" color wireless Touchscreen from Vantage, which communicates to their Infusion Processor that has 5 built-in RS-232 ports, with more that can be added on the bus or wireless. All with a WMC type of interface.

There is also a theaterpoint station that has local IR and Power sensing for controlling all kinds of gear.

www.vantagecontrols.com is where you and others can see the products.

IVB

10-25-06, 06:34 PM

Question about the vantage software, not entirely clear from that site: Do you need to know flash in order to use the Designer Toolbox?

smoothtlk

10-25-06, 08:00 PM

IVB, Designer Toolbox requires Flash. Vantage has essentially added some Flash components that allows a dealer to interface with Vantage lighting controls to insulate the dealer from the guts of Flash.

Designer Toolbox cannot do what the good PC based software products can do. It is a decent, basic control package that is well supported by Vantage.

The Cinemar MLVantage plugin was commisioned and bought by Vantage dealers to interface with the controller. They already have Designer Toolbox, and don't use it, favoring MainLobby as MainLobby goes many steps farther than what Designer Toolbox was scoped to do. Several of their dealers now have asked Cinemar to produce MLInfusion plugin to control this very powerful, brand new Vantage controller. MLInfusion should be available by the end of November.

truaudiophile, Yes, we will be meeting with Vantage at EHX in two weeks to look at that system. Knowing Vantage, I am sure it will be excellent.

IVB

10-25-06, 09:05 PM

Thanks.

ok, truaudiophile, I don't get it. Dean said
A product like CQC goes way beyond what any software from Vantage is going to do for you.

you responded with
Dean, You are so far uninformed on the Vantage product, that I am losing respect for you in the way you are plugging your product Over them.

What's the specific areas in which you feel Vantage meets or exceeds CQC (or MainLobby)?

truaudiophile

10-25-06, 10:07 PM

Dean Roddey

10-25-06, 10:51 PM

Considering that CQC is also has quite extensive media management capabilities, plus all of the automation features, as well as the ability to connect to internet based data streams, a fully networked distributed architecture, open ended graphical interface system, and so forth. So I think it's safe to say that it goes well beyond what a Vantage system would provide you by itself, though if Vantage supports all those things and I'm not aware of it then point them out and I'll take it back.

That doesn't mean you NEED those extra capabilities, and if not they aren't relevant to the purchase, but they are there nonetheless,

IVB

10-25-06, 11:45 PM

I don't feel like getting into a **** tossing match pinch per pinch. I just wanted to tilt the bias back to the middle and have the people reading the thread check out all the aspects of each system.

These are expensive systems. New items and capabilities are happening all the time, with many changes occuring in the time frame of the building process.
I just want the owners to do their homework to get the most out of their time, effort and money.

I'm not looking for a pissing match, I legitimately tried to read through that site and understand how it works. Doesn't seem to be very content rich esp on the software front, couldn't figure out what it actually did as opposed to anything else. For example, I noticed that RS232 port thingey, but couldn't figure out how i'd actually use a Vantage to connect to my Aprilaire/rain8net/elk/etc using it. Are there drivers for these products, or does it connect some other way?

Just curious.

dstrack

10-26-06, 08:36 AM

I am still waiting my installer's proposal (right now we're working on the Vantage lights only - climate control, drapes, security system, garage doors, sprinkler system are all for phase 2 so to speak) but one thing he mentioned to me was that the Vantage software that runs on that 12" lcd touchscreen ONLY runs on that touchscreen and not any other hardware... (or at least doesn't run on other hardware well) even though it's just a slimmed down XP machine... am I wrong in assuming that there should be a MCE plugin as well as the ability to control the entire Vantage system from any PC/Mac?

fletch999

10-26-06, 11:49 AM

Vantage has had their Webpoint product to use your PC as an interface. I am not sure if it works with the Infusion product or just Q. I seem to remember that the Infusion may have this capability out of the box.

Vantage is not Crestron. It is first a lighting control system. It can be interfaced with other subsystems such as HVAC, security etc. It can also interface with A/V systems. Vantage wants to move toward being more of a control/automation solution, a more end to end solution. Whether they ever get there is a big question.

Vantage started last year with a strategic partnership with Exceptional Innovations and its Lifware product . For whatever reason, this partnership didn't take. It may have been as simple as their recent purchase by LeGrand. It seemed that this was their move into full blown control systems. Now it seems that they are going it alone.

The lighiting control system is great. Bulletproof. As good or better than any other high end lighting control system (aesthetics aside, some don't like the look of Vantage keypads etc, I think they are very pleasing to look at). They have struggled in the past with A/V control. It works, but it is not the same as other high end control systems (AMX, Crestron) Infusion SEEMS to work toward changing that. The new touchscreens are very nice, the control potential is very good. I don't know if it is all there yet, but I would not hesitate to use Infusion as the basis of a control system.

Is it the best solution? For lighting I think it is in the top two. For control it definately is below the top two. I can't comment on where it falls compared to CQC or other software frontends. I just don't know. From all I have seen CQC is a very good frontend. Probably with more capabilites overall than Vantage when it comes to integration and automation. But the Vantage lighting will still be programmed and controlled internally and the CQC will touch it and execute Vantage programming.

If your goal is to have access to your home systems from your network, off site etc, then just install the most appropriate subsystems (lighting, security, HVAC, A/V etc)and integrate them all with the best front end for you. (CQC, Crestron etc)

One last thing, the new Vantage touchscreens are still closed interfaces, they are connected to the Infusion controller and programmed through the Vantage system. The touchsceen just happens to run embedded XP, it is not a PC. And Designer toolbox is just a front end for Flash.

dstrack

10-26-06, 01:10 PM

fletch999 - Thanks so much... that's great info... I think I'm finally getting a handle on all this. Vantage seems to be the lighting system for me assuming the price is what I think it's going to be (proposal should be in my hands very soon). My next step will be climate control and finally security system (with sprinkler system and potential drapes/shades farther down on the priority list). Ideally I always thought that I would control everything from a PC on the network, but I guess in practice I don't really need to fiddle with lighting or climate control all that often once the basic scenes are programmed etc... I do like the wireless touchpanel that Vantage offers... also really like their smaller lcd remote too (although I have yet to hold either in my hands). So I suppose once I have all those things installed if I need a true front end to it all I'll look into CQC and other alternatives. Everyone has been very helpful. Thanks.

smoothtlk

10-26-06, 02:07 PM

dstrack, The vantage supports external control. This RS232 port connects to the PC. The Mainlobby software is then configured to talk to the Vantage controller. Our plugin grabs all of the programming out of the Vantage controller and creates variables in the PC software for each device and event. With the PC, you can tell the Vantage to either "Turn Load 45 on", or "Run the Night Time Event" (that is preprogrammed into the Vantage by the Vantage dealer). So, you have the best of both worlds.

Now, once the PC is connected to it, you can now create user interface screens to match the interiour of your home, your personal style, for all of your controllable hardware (beyond the Vantage). You are not limited to the Vantage hardware display devices, as you can now leverage Consumer Electronics buying volume discounts and put in wall touchscreens, in hand wireless tablets, reuse your desktop PC, use your work laptop, your PDA, your Windows CE enabled phone, to interact with the HA system (which Vantage is now a subset of).

You can now integrate all of your systems. For example Cinemar has an Outlook Calendar interface. Very popular in the kitchen to tell everyone who is taking the daughter to dance class tonight. And, because MLCalendar supports "reminders", you can have MainLobby flash the TV room lights when it's 5 minutes before it's time to leave (tell the Vantage controller to flash the lights). Simple example, but demonstrates that we now treat the house as an overall System. Not just a lighting controller.

Weather is also a very popular kitchen touchscreen display. Can't do that in Vantage.
CallerID - display the caller's picture, say who's calling on the whole house audio system, see who called and the time while you were at work.

List goes on and on. Well beyond what the Vantage controller is capable of. The Vantage does what it does as one of the best. The rest is just beyond the scope of what it was intended to do. And beyond the Designer Toolbox. These systems are also not "front end tools" (very common misconception). They are the core of the system as well. They are also the automation "engine" that orchestrates all of the actions, as at this cross hardware level, goes beyond the hardware controller.

dstrack

10-26-06, 04:07 PM

smoothtlk - Gotcha I think... So the Vantage system sounds like a good lighting option for me and as I add other options I'm able to use things like MainLobby to tie them all together... makes sense... very cool stuff. Thanks - I can't wait to finally get something implemented and see where it all takes me... in your opinion is there a better option for lighting than Vantage?

fletch999

10-27-06, 11:22 AM

To me the only options for lighting control are Vantage and Lutron Homeworks. Or, Crestron if you are going to use a Crestron control system.

dstrack

10-27-06, 12:55 PM

Great... we're on the same page. Thanks

dstrack

10-29-06, 08:47 AM

http://www.ehomeupgrade.com/entry/3189/homeseer-s_new_pro-100

So... something like this is basically a dedicated controller that runs Homeseer (I'm assuming a competitor software product of CQC?) and is compatible with my Vantage system... interesting...

robertmee

10-29-06, 08:52 AM

smoothtlk

10-29-06, 09:06 AM

Almost, it is an embedded PC. solid state drive and no fan.

Here is Cinemar's offerings: www.cinemaronline.com/servers.html

These are "standard" PCs with Cinemar software loaded on them. We also do embedded designs, but most of our customers opt for the "standard" versions for large RAID drives for media storage. Our servers are equiped with faster processers and more RAM, more comports, more (just about everything...) to handle all of the media tasks, which Homeseer is not as centered on.

The real advantage to the Cinemar servers is that the software is installed and configured for easy startup. Less learning curve as things "work" out of the box. Mate it with our available preloaded Samsung Q1s for get up and running ease. You can get it working with a Russound Cav66 whole house audio system in an hour or so (as one example).

dstrack, make sure that you are getting a vantage software control system that matches your vantage controller. ie: Q series is way different than Infusion. Cinemar currently has Q series support and Infusion is in development.

And yes, Homeseer is a competitor for CQC (and Cinemar for that matter). The difference is that MainLobby can also be used WITH Homeseer for the best of both worlds. Homeseer has strength in great back end server flexibility and tons of user contributed scripts and plugins to do a zillion things. Much more coverage than CQC has. It's drawback is the user interface is not state of the art. That is where MainLobby 3 comes in to work 2 way with Homeseer. The best user interface and the flexibility of Homeseer's driver / plugin / script support. A very popular combination. But, that is probably way overkill for where you are at now. MainLobby all by itself is probably way more than what you will ever need to interact with your new Vantage system, etc.

IVB

10-29-06, 10:57 AM

Given all the anger I see on the various forums by the actual HS users, I can't believe anyone would think that HomeSeer is the best of any world.

Curious - In the new version of HomeSeer, is there any form of network distribution if you have multiple HS servers?

I.E., I still have my current situation where i'm using old PCs or my office PC as servers. I've got 3 servers right now, and am contemplating upgrading my HTPC as it's not strong enough for me to leave dScaler on for both HDTV and SDTV, in which case I'd have yet another box. Rather than have a single mainframe-esque box run everything, it's safer to have the "mission critical" HA stuff on one box, the optional stuff on another box, and the HT stuff on a 3rd.

There's a ton of value in having the ability to not only centrally administrate all 3, but link them together (i.e., if this mission critical thing happens, do this optional thing). Also obviously an integrated UI with all those.

It's that ability to integrate disparate servers and functions that will lift HA out of the "hobbyist-gee ma, look, I can control my whole house through my computer", and into consumption by the masses.

IVB

10-29-06, 11:42 AM

Given all the anger I see on the various forums by the actual HS users, I can't believe anyone would think that HomeSeer is the best of any world.

Oh look, another interesting thread started today about HS (http://www.cocoontech.com/index.php?showtopic=5957). Allow me to quote some relevant bits.

Been reading through a bunch of posts on the Homeseer Board and one thing that struck me is... A LOT of posts describing problems never seem to get resolved and many of them go with no response at all.

HST has stated that they do not have the time or intentions of monitoring their message board.

It is shocking to me that anyone would choose a problem-laden package like HomeSeer in this day and age. Either get a real HA package like CQC, or don't do any HA. Any other path would result in huge psychiatrist bills.

dstrack

10-30-06, 09:23 AM

OK... learning more and more here... this is great. CQC seems to be the right deal assuming I take that next step and go into the next level of Home Automation... which I certainly believe I will do - just need to take my time and get all the pieces prepared. Thanks again - I'll be back once I see my Vantage proposal... can't wait to get it installed (assuming the proposal is reasonable)!

IVB

10-30-06, 10:57 AM

Keep in mind that the price for the full license of CQC goes up from $495->$895 once 2.0 goes final, which isn't too far off now. (ie, 2 weeks)

cmcjo

10-30-06, 02:20 PM

Good idea with this dedicated home automation forum. I just noticed it.

Hello DStrack, are you also getting a price for a Lutron Homeworks system?
This would be the most stable rock solid lighting system you can buy today. I have been using it for a couple of years and have never had a single issue. Instant response and very easy programming.

fletch999

10-30-06, 04:31 PM

cmcjo, the same is true for Vantage.

cmcjo

10-30-06, 08:14 PM

Yes, I have heard good things about Vantage systems.
I noticed the Legrand name on their website. I guess maybe they will start to offer ready integrated solutions to include some of the Onq stuff.

cmcjo, the same is true for Vantage.

dstrack

10-31-06, 07:39 AM

I looked into Lutron as well... Spoke to a few friends as well as the folks on these forums... seems that Lutron and Vantage are on the same level as one another as the best of breed so to speak. I think I'll be happy with either one and right now I'm definitely leaning towards Vantage if for no other reason I found what I think to be a decent installer as well as the fact that I like the Vantage look slightly better than Lutron's.

fletch999

10-31-06, 09:56 AM

Thats really all it comes down to between Lutron and Vantage IMO. Aesthetics. Some people love the Lutron keypads, some hat em. Same is true for Vantage.

And yes, Legrand did purchase Vantage recently. No real word yet as to the direction the company will be taking afaik.

systemsbydesign

11-01-06, 08:54 PM

Being that this what I do for a living, you might check into a couple of different systems that are readily available and easy to install.

Centralite "starlite"
or
UPB "pulseworx" by Powerline control systems

Depending on what style of system you are wanting to do these are the easiest there is to work with. There are major $$$$$$ upsides to both.

If it is a DYI system that you are looking for then you may also want to check out the Cortexa control system as well.

cortexatechnology

Let me know if you need more input on the subject.

SBD

robertmee

11-02-06, 08:25 AM

Being that this what I do for a living, you might check into a couple of different systems that are readily available and easy to install.

Centralite "starlite"
or
UPB "pulseworx" by Powerline control systems

Depending on what style of system you are wanting to do these are the easiest there is to work with. There are major $$$$$$ upsides to both.

SBD

Does the $$$$ upside imply cost savings? I had looked at the startlite system but was under the impression that it was just as expensive as Lutron's RadioRa.

dstrack

11-02-06, 10:59 AM

I'll be honest and say I don't have a really good reason, but I'm just not a fan of powerline networking... It's probably due to my ignorance about the product, but I'm just not a big fan. I'd rather go wireless or prefer wired where applicable with all my networking needs. So with that being said... Are there any major advantages (besides aesthetics) to Centralite's Starlite system over Vantage?

Dean Roddey

11-02-06, 02:04 PM

I think that it's pretty much a no-brainer to go hardwired if it's a practical option, at least for the core of the home. You could always use peripheral stuff wirelessly or powerline if it wasn't practical to hardware everything.

Pete

11-04-06, 04:40 PM

Leviton is supposed to be releasing a new lighting control system that's simple and reliable.
It adhears to the new Z-Wave standard developed by a consortium of Electronic Industry manufactues.

http://www.aboutlightingcontrols.org/products/newprods/leviton/leviton-20041020.shtml

cmcjo

11-05-06, 07:19 PM

That link didn't work for me. Is it the Vizia RF lighting by Leviton?

Leviton is supposed to be releasing a new lighting control system that's simple and reliable.
It adhears to the new Z-Wave standard developed by a consortium of Electronic Industry manufactues.

http://www.aboutlightingcontrols.org/products/newprods/leviton/leviton-20041020.shtml

dstrack

11-08-06, 08:23 AM

Ok... Finally got my proposal. WOW. I was not prepared to see such a high number... I don't think my installer is trying to rob me - the price is over double what I anticipated. I'm not going to quit the project but rather prioritze a little bit as well as do a little due diligence to make sure the pricing my installer is using is actually in-line with the market. Any rule of thumb when working with Vantage products as far as estimating price?

MikeB1973

11-11-06, 12:32 AM

Does CQC support Insteon yet?

IVB

11-11-06, 01:40 AM

Does CQC support Insteon yet?

Driver is in public beta. (http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=2574)

MikeB1973

11-11-06, 05:07 AM

Driver is in public beta.

That's great! Last I had checked, there didn't even seem interest...

IVB

11-11-06, 11:52 AM

Well, Dean didn't actually write it - part of the recent explosion in CQC growth were several hardcore developer types who also believe in publicly sharing all that they do. One of the guys, jonathan, has probably written 7 drivers by now.

There's 46 drivers currently in progress, check this thread if you want to see all of them. (http://www.charmedquark.com/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=2294)

Cable Dude1122

11-12-06, 01:30 PM

When using Radio RA, sometimes it helps to have a second RF Signal Repeater depending on the area of covereage. Lutron says 30' range but depending on your wall type and other considerations, the 30' range might not be accurate. Below is Lutrons product desprtion for the repeater. I am close to installing Radio RA and will report back on how the system performs.

Tom

Required for system setup and diagnostics of RF communications
Ensures error-free communication between system components
Re-sends every signal sent through the system and eliminates cross-talk with neighboring RadioRA systems
Model #: RA-REP-WH

Mark P

11-14-06, 02:02 PM

Insteon needs 2 RF transmitters in an 11,000 square ft area. I used 4 but unhooked 2 of them and didnt notice a difference. From my understanding each switch is a transmitter, the more you have, the better the signal. I even have Insteon over 150' from the house in another building working fine with a transmitter in the building

TrikinCurt

11-17-06, 12:13 AM

dstrack, probably the only way is to get a competitive bid for either Vantage or Lutron Homeworks and go from there. Also, the keypads make a difference (style, number of buttons and metal or plastic faceplates). If you have a lot of keypads, go with a more basic style and plastic faceplates to save some $$.

I am not sure if Vantage posts retail pricing, but they do have retail prices on the products so that may help. Last, this isn't just a lighting system like buying a radiora dimmer, it is a wired system so I imagine there is a lot of electrical work in your bid as well.

I am putting 100 loads of Vantage in my house (40 some keypads) so I know it isn't cheap, but it is a great system. It isn't aimed at DIY, it is aimed at luxery homes. So if you happen to be a DIY guy in a luxery home, you won't regret it (especially since you can simply telnet into an infusion system and type "help" to get a list of all the commands it supports for control).

Curt

fletch999

11-17-06, 01:54 PM

Vantage says on the website (or used to) that you can have a Vantage system starting at around $5 per sq ft of house. This is doable but really bare bones. It is more like $8-10 for a more capable system. Again these are just really broad ballparks.

Vantage does provide a list price, but I don't believe it is published.

sic0048

11-18-06, 12:54 PM

So a 4000sq ft house is going to cost $35,000 to $40,000 for a robust Vantage system? Wow. I know there are a lot of very expensive (and very good) lighting controllers out there, but for me personally, there is no way I could justify spending that kind of money for a lighting control system.

cmcjo

11-18-06, 04:33 PM

Not $35-40K. That sounds reallly high man!
A 25 switch house-wide homeworks system should not be half that much.

jcm

11-19-06, 10:39 AM

Not installed it isn't. It could be less, quite a bit less depending on the layout, but I don't know anyone who would do it for half that amount.

jcmitch

IVB

11-19-06, 11:17 AM

I was recently given the following list prices by a CQC user who had it installed. Here's what my math says for parts for either RF or wired. My crystal ball says I should expect about $17K for this. Of course, I've made several giant assumptions, hopefully someone out there can correct or confirm me there.

Is my math and/or prices right?

Wireless Homeworks:
The following are all list prices:
RF Processor - $1700
600W RF Dimmer - $285
RF Keypad - $500
Depending on the distances, you may need an RF Repeater - $400

So presuming 24 keypads:
1 RF processor - $1700
24 dimmers - $6840
6 keypads - $3000 (complete total guess. no reason for me to say this.)
1 repeater - $400
So that's nearly $12K, and I didn't count random junk like faceplates, misc junk. Assuming $2K for that, you're at $14K. Given that it's RF, there's no wiring needed, so it would be relatively quick on the hardware swap part, then there's programming.
Assuming a retrofit, my level of skill, and 15 minutes to swap out a dimmer, 45 mins to install a keypad, that's:
24*.25 = 6 hours
.75 * 6 = 4.5 hours
so 10.5 hours to do the hardware part. Again, I have zero reason to come up with these #s, they're just a guess.
At $80/hour, which is what my electrician charges, we're now at just shy of $15K for the hardware part.

Wired:
Processor $3900
Keypads $250/each
Local Dimmers $140/each
Remote Power Modules $550/each - each one can control 4 loads
Enclosure $800

Not sure why this is more, but these are the #s I was given, so I have no reason to doub them.
Same math shows:
$3900 - Processor
$3360 - 24 Dimmers * $140
$1250 - 5 Keypads *$250
$3300 - 6 RPMs (that's why I picked 24 loads, assume maximum efficiency
$800 - Enclosure
so that's $12610 in parts. Given that it's a hardwired run, now it's 45 minutes for both keypads & dimmers, so that's
(24+5)*.75 = 22 hours for keypad/dimmer install
Assuming 3 hours for other random wiring crap, that's 25 hours. At $80/hour, that's $2K.

So, either way, my complete and total guess is just under $15K for hardware install, so the rest is software/control setup. Even if it's easy, I'd think it'd take 2 days or so to confirm all lights work and some basic scenes are operational. As that's a "rarer" skill than HV (and no flames from electricians please), I'd expect a slightly higher rate, so at $100/hr, my swag is $1600 minimum for that. (although it would go damn faster with 2 people, so let's call it an even $2K)

So that's where my wholly uneducated guess of $17K comes from.

smoothtlk

11-19-06, 01:00 PM

IVB, quick scan at your list, I didn't see programming costs. That won't come at a low labor rate.

IVB

11-19-06, 01:26 PM

Sorry, that's what I had as the basic software control setup at the end. I put $2K for that at $100/hr, assuming a very basic setup. As hardware & install was $15K either way, that's what took it to $17K.

Obviously more complex installs or scenes will cost more, but that's too variable to estimate. I was guessing that one could bank on $2K in programming, but if you want anything more than "turn this light or lights on at sunrise", you'll have to pay for it.

jcm

11-19-06, 01:35 PM

First, there's no such thing as a 3 hour wiring trip, even if you have the wiring plan all drawn up, it'll take you half that to get the tech up to speed.

To your benefit, retrofit is the least expensive scenario. There's no layout work needed, (you may need to rough out a switch plan though from existing conditions) and the line voltage materials and the bulk of the 110v labor is completed. Choosing an Rf system, you cut out the bulk of the lowvolt materials and the prewire work but the dimmers and KPs are more. Choose wired dimmers and you'll need more than 45 minutes per. Don't forget dimmer install is more than one step, (line wire, low wire, terminate, install load, test line, connect comms, address and test comms). You're still going to need to do a client interview, client review, order and install engraving, and come back for at least one group of changes. You're also going to plan some time to coordinate with the other trades you will interface with: security, electrical, interior design, landscaping, telecommunications, and GC.

The labor estimate could be pretty close if everything is ready at the same time and there aren't any hiccups (also better for retrofit, it usually worked before you started). You include the charge for handling the above, documenting and programming the system, and sales tax on $15K...

jcmitch

IVB

11-19-06, 01:42 PM

Sorry, not understanding that part - which 3 hours are you referring to? I had 10.5 hours to insgtall/run wiring for RF, 25 hours for wired. Is that still a very low estimate?

Don't take that the wrong way - I really don't know. I was just SWAGing, as I need to begin setting my own expectations as I'm trying to figure out how much an install will cost me (both pro install, and DIY in terms of my time).

jcm

11-19-06, 01:57 PM

My bad, read it quickly and thought I saw a 3 hour trip, seems it was 3 hours miscellaneous. The point still stands though, it is just as important to include an estimate of the number of visits a project will take in addition to the number of hours when developing a budget. There are very few short visits to a construction site.

BTW, Rf repeaters are wired to the processor in HomeWorks systems. Often quite a bit apart.

jcmitch

Mark P

11-19-06, 01:59 PM

IVB

11-19-06, 02:07 PM

Ouch,
Insteon, 152 dimmers (10-1000watt, 6-lamp dimmers, PLC, 25 wired in dimmers) and complete Elk-M1 system $6000.00

18 hours installed, linked, LED pipes changed to Dark blue working flawlessly for over a month.

Well, for those of you with newer houses and little electrical noise, that could be an option.

I have an old house, no guarantee of 3rd wire, and very noisy lines. I can't do any PLC stuff.

Mark P

11-19-06, 02:23 PM

We have the most horrible power known, early mornings you can expect dimming of all lighting between 3:00 am and 6:30 am. Complete Power outtage once a month, more in the winter. constant surges. Im waiting to see how this effects Insteon and as of yet have not seen the effects. not having a neutral would be a big problem with Insteon as would not having traveler wires with multiple 3 gang boxes and up with higher wattage lighting

Mark P

11-19-06, 02:34 PM

By the way IVB it was nice meeting all of you CQC users in your meetings, very informative and helpful and a great group of people. I think I got my answer about Insteon and CQC from Jonathon ( I hope) and maybe I will check back next month and see if theres a way to make it work but at this time it appears Insteon isnt considered a worthwhile approach unless you only have a few which sort of makes it a deal killer for me since I seem to be one of the few that arent having troubles with it. All the members in those conferences are great!

cmcjo

11-19-06, 03:02 PM

BTW, Rf repeaters are wired to the processor in HomeWorks systems. Often quite a bit apart.
jcmitch

Im not understanding this? Are you talking about a wireless homeworks system and wireless RF reapeaters? If so, how does the repeater get wired?

jcm

11-19-06, 05:20 PM

If the repeater is more than 60' from the processor or another repeater then it must be wired to Link 8. On an Rf capable wired processor, the first repeater must be wired.

jcmitch

cmcjo

11-20-06, 07:35 AM

If the repeater is more than 60' from the processor or another repeater then it must be wired to Link 8. On an Rf capable wired processor, the first repeater must be wired.

jcmitch

Unless this changed over the last 2 years, there is no place for a wire to even connect on the repeater. The only wire on my repeater is the power cord.
Is this a new repeater that Lutron has now?

jcm

11-20-06, 07:52 AM

Yup, its called the hybrid repeater, and they replaced it again earlier this month with a 3rd generation enhanced hybrid repeater. It now has open.close and on.off buttons for testing and controlling rf dimmers and rf shades during install, before programming and addressing. Great tool for testing range.

jcmitch

cmcjo

11-20-06, 09:02 AM

That is cool. Thanks Mitch.

dstrack

12-05-06, 01:39 PM

What about the Monster? They make a very nice remote that it seems to integrate with nicely...

http://www.monstercentral.com/Public/lighting_products.asp

dstrack

12-06-06, 10:21 AM

OK... So here's what I got. I'm pretty sure my installer is pricing is fairly but would love to get people's impressions. Also - I understand reliability is key here, but when you look at Vantage as opposed to an Insteon or others what is the major reason for the raised price? I've spoken to enough people who know this stuff that I'm comfortable spending the extra money, but is it really THAT much better? I'll probably wait a couple more months before implementing this system because from what I understand Vantage is releasing a new 7" touchpanel which would be perfect.

So I'm looking at Lighting and Climate Control (All Vantage) as Phase I.

- 5 thermostat stations
- 7 Accent Points
- 40 ScenePoint Dimmers
17 - 1 Gang, 1 Column
7 - 1 Gang, 2 Columns
8 - 2 Gang, 2 Columns
2 - 3 Gangs, 1 Column
2 - 3 Gangs, 2 Columns
1 - 4 Gangs, 2 Columns

Once you add in the main Infusion Controller, RadioLink Enabler and Interface Stations, labor, programming and the 12" Touchpanel (priced it with this because the 7" is not available yet) we're up to about $39k. Would love to hear any impressions from current Vantage owners... Thanks for all the advice so far.

TrikinCurt

12-06-06, 10:56 AM

Mark P

12-06-06, 11:10 AM

Make sure you get the new thermostats, they are much cooler looking (but not shipping yet).

Key things to Vantage:

It is wired. That speaks for itself. I have 56 wireless RadioRA dimmers in my house, it works sorta great most of the time (it is much slower for something like all off, every once and awhile a dimmer doesn't respond). We are doing a major addition/remodel so I am moving to all Vantage. I would argue the stability, speed and programming are worth it.

The other big advantage is having one single gang 8 button unit instead of a row of 8 light switches. It is definately a cosmetic improvement.

Curt
This is nice to hear, glad I didnt "buy" into all the Lutron hype and went with Insteon and saved 10K (dealer cost) in switches alone. Insteon has been rock solid so far. What product automate your Lutron? is it a software or hardware issue with the Lutron setup?

dstrack

12-06-06, 01:50 PM

I actually plan on using the RadioLink system from Vantage since this is a retro-fit job and not new construction... Hopefully some can be wired but I think more often than not it'll be RadioLink (unless you're referring to it being technically "wired" via the neutral wire in the lightswitch panel?). I do agree with you aesthetically Vantage looks great.

TrikinCurt

12-06-06, 01:52 PM

Ah, sorry, I should have read closer. Vantage Wireless works great, and certainly you can mix and match the two. We are actually going to retrofit the lighting in the house for wired vantage. It will be interesting to say the least...

TrikinCurt

12-06-06, 01:55 PM

Mark -

With Lutron it is just a matter of having enough repeaters. Our current house is 4500sq ft, nothing to massive but still difficult to get the repeaters where you want them (I am only using one repeater plus the base).

The missing lights are rare and not a big problem, the speed of the system is another. If you bump all off on accident you have a good 5-10 seconds before you can correct it since it keeps repeating the all off command to make sure it works.

As for controlling it, currently nothing. It is a Chronos system (needed for anything above 32 dimmers) so I have that to create scenes and such.

The new system will be AMX and Vantage, all wired.

fletch999

12-06-06, 02:03 PM

The Vantage system that dstrack is talking about is radiolink, I believe, so it is not wired. The scenepoints are dimmers and keypads in one that basically act independantly (if desired) The scenepoints are swapped for the standard toggles so the advantage of 1 gang keypad replacing 8 gang bank of switches is not here.

Either way, you are right. The Vantage system will be rock solid whether it is Radiolink or wired. The touchscreen will need at minimum power wired to it so it isn't completely wireless.

FINISTERE21

12-06-06, 02:38 PM

to answer dstrack's question about the vantage having a raised price, it would be due to a number of thing i believe, could be that most all engineering is done in the U.S. (Utah), most everything is build in the U.S. (again, Utah) and is very thorough in testing from "womb to tomb" take the DIN-EDS (Din Electronic Dimmer) for example, i've personally be running this through acceptance testing for the better part of four months now, testing everthing imaginable on it and it's not scheduled for release until Feb. '06 i believe, don't quote me on it though. and this isn't including the testing done initially by the design engineer, the UL testing, the CE testing, the FCC testing, etc... BTW, this is an awesome product, and is available in a standard module form factor.
Kris

google this... "din electronic dimmer" vantage
since i can't post the url

dstrack

12-06-06, 03:30 PM

This DIN-EDS would be instead of the Infusion Controller or in conjunction with?

Looks like for the new touchscreen and thermostats I'll be waiting a bit... this is very helpful...

Gravitom

12-13-06, 09:11 PM

I'm building my first home theater and I'm looking to start off with a basic automated lighting setup. Basically I'd like four wall dimmers that I can also control via a harmony remote. It would be nice if the remote knew when the lights were turned off manually and would respond accordingly but as I understand it that is an advanced feature. Also I would like something that it scalable so if I decided to do other lights or automated blinds down the road, I could add that functionality.

Any recommendations? Thanks.

Edit: I checked out Lutron Aurora and it seemed great and the price is right. However it doesn't integrate with any universal remotes to its no good for me. I then checked out Lutron Radio RA and it seems to have everything I want but is out of my price range. In fact to spec out a system exactly the same as the Aurora is over twice the price. Looking at Insteon now.

cmcjo

12-14-06, 07:49 AM

Make sure you get the new thermostats, they are much cooler looking (but not shipping yet).

Key things to Vantage:

It is wired. That speaks for itself. I have 56 wireless RadioRA dimmers in my house, it works sorta great most of the time (it is much slower for something like all off, every once and awhile a dimmer doesn't respond). We are doing a major addition/remodel so I am moving to all Vantage. I would argue the stability, speed and programming are worth it.

The other big advantage is having one single gang 8 button unit instead of a row of 8 light switches. It is definately a cosmetic improvement.

Curt

Just to clarify for others. Trikin is using the Lutron RadioRa. You would never have this problem with the Lutron Homeworks wireless system. I have 40+ switches and If I hit all off or all on it takes a fraction of a section for a whole house response.

If you can get a wire installed, by all means do it. BUt if you dont want to run wires or its a retrofit, Lutron Homeworks is bulletproof. I have not even had the slightest glitch in 2 years.

cmcjo

12-14-06, 07:52 AM

Mark P

12-14-06, 07:59 AM

Or If on a budget (or not) get Insteon, install them properly is key to success. I have 157, not one failure creeping up on 3 months. I have groups of 100 lights ramping up to preseleted dims ( different on all 100 lights) in less than a split second in both Cinemar and CQC (CharmedQuark) which you can buy with the money you save, well that and a new car in my case

jcm

12-14-06, 08:21 AM

Trikin,

I am sorry to hear that the Lutron system didn't perform perfectly. I am curious, did the system start off smaller and then grow or was it designed at the current size? if you don't mind, did the integrator talk about the challenges after 32 devices and performance? Was there anyone involved other than your electrical contractor? I ask for purely selfish reasons, I've seen a few large RadioRA systems lately installed in new construction. 56 RA dimmers is a bit of a kludge. Its really 2 separate RA systems talking through the Chronos as a bridge. A hardwired HomeWorks system is in the same price category and really was built for this size system. The target market for RadioRA was the 3500 sq ft home and under, but I run into multi-million dollar homes now where RA is being considered as the primary lighting controller. I'm just trying to figure out why and how.

jcmitch

robertmee

12-14-06, 02:20 PM

Dont forget to look at Levitons new ViziaRF. It works great and the price is great too.

In general terms what are we talking about in $$$ for a 600W dimmer in each of the following technologies (yes, I know controllers, etc. are extra, just trying to get an idea for switches which make up the bulk of a project)

Insteon
UPB
Lutron Radio Ra
Lutron Homeworks
Centralite Starlite
ZWave
Zigbee (Control4)
Leviton ViziaRF

Gravitom

12-15-06, 12:24 AM

Dont forget to look at Levitons new ViziaRF. It works great and the price is great too.

Where do you find info on this? All they have on their website is a press release and I can't seem to find products for sale online. Has it actually been released yet?

IVB

12-15-06, 12:59 AM

Where do you find info on this? All they have on their website is a press release and I can't seem to find products for sale online. Has it actually been released yet?

According to automatedoutlet.com (very trusted etailer), ViziaRF won't be released until end-of-jan at the earliest.

sawyerspadre

01-05-07, 11:38 PM

Vantage and Lutron HomeWorks are very similair in price. If lighting and shade control are primarily what you desire, you may want to check out Lutron as well. The Sivoia shades from Lutron are quiet and precisely controllable, and they integrate seamlessly with the HomeWorks wired or wireless systems.

myurochko

01-09-07, 03:29 PM

Mark P = How is the Insteon system holding up? I know its initial releases were pretty buggy, but they seem to have stabilized.

I recoginze the rock solid nature of Lutron and Vantage, but they just don't seem to be DIY friendly (budget wise, or install wise).

Mark P

01-09-07, 05:18 PM

So far so good, no problems for me

IVB

01-09-07, 08:22 PM

Well to be fair, didn't you mention earlier that you've got a decent electrical background, and could tell how to install Insteon correctly and how not to? IIRC, there was something about knowing how to mount to avoid heat issues?

Mark P

01-10-07, 09:25 AM

To be completely fair, you shouldnt be installing switches and such if you cant figure this stuff out or have just a slight bit of common sense. Its not well documented anywhere about the heat and not placing multiple load switches in the same gang and trying to run large wattage so thats a minus of Insteon.

Then again, most people dont install switches without turning the breaker off and never know how hot the switch gets, Im guessing they shut down the breaker and swap a switch out, stuff er back in there and never look back.

The guy at Insteon seemed suprised I was calling to ask him if the amount of heat coming off these was normal. "Youre touching the heatsinks with the power on ?" I figured I would keep quiet about never having the power off to begin with since he seemed so nervous out my safety.

IVB

01-10-07, 11:54 AM

Mark P

01-10-07, 01:48 PM

Not sure I'm following - you replaced the switches without turning off the power?

I'm not an electrician by any stretch, so forgive the dunce question: How is that possible? Did you use rubber gloves, or how else did you avoid electrocuting yourself?Do it all the time, most electricans I know do as well. The trick isnt touching the wires, the trick is keeping the wires from touching each other but this is pretty simple with practice. You may get a tickle or two if your not careful which Im not aware of any electricians that havent been hit dozens of times, out of 157 switches I did get bumped twice I think and both times were carelessness of trying to get them all done in a day.

Now I wouldnt do this with 30 or 50 amp circuits even though Ive been nailed before by someone throwing a breaker while working on a dryer outlet long ago. That bites alot harder than light switches

IVB

01-10-07, 01:54 PM

Mark P

01-10-07, 03:21 PM

Why do you need to touch the wire? Mainly on a remodel where youre swapping out, everythings already done as far as stripping and such, if not, grab your rubber handled strippers and strip it.

If youre removing push in type wiring, I just push a small plastic or rubber handled screwdriver to release the wire, if installing dimmers just grab appropriate wirenut and push both wires in and twist away.

I cant think of a single time I would ever need to touch bare wire with breakers on or off unless we are talking #4 wire or something like that but since thats rated for much higher amps then obviously the work youre doing will be off. Light switches though, its a little tingle, yeah the first couple times you get nailed in your life its " shocking" enough but after a dozen or two times you just dont worry about it much. Most honest electricians will tell you theyve been nailed dozens and dozens of times if theyve been in the business awhile.

Its like the shop teacher everyone had with 3 fingers on one hand, you just get too trusting with your capabilities and dont even look at what youre doing half the time.

EEs are paid to be safe and smart, somebody installing 200 dimmers and wanting to test and set on the fly, doesnt.

robertmee

01-12-07, 10:07 AM

Sorry for the seemingly stupid question, i didn't realize something you stated and my father with the EE degree yelled at me otherwise. You can touch the wiring, ie the hot one, with the power on?

I've been "tickled" several times by mistake, but dang that didn't feel like no tickle.

IVB,

You can touch a hot wire all day long and feel nothing or you could get the shock of your life. Why risk it? Always shut the power off when working with electrical circuits. Marks comment about two times out of two hundred is still two times too many. It only takes once to stop your heart. And not only do you stand the risk of direct current exposure, there is always the worry of arc-flash.

As far as the physics go, electrical current has to have a return path to ground to flow. When you grab a hot wire, if you are not touching any other conducting material that gives a path to ground (wearing rubber soled shoes), you won't complete the circuit and the current will not flow through your body. Reach out and grab the neutral or touch something else that's connected to ground and you'll get shocked.

As for the electrician stories of working with power on, that is an unfortunate truth as many are in a hurry and do things expeditiously, but not safely. I've been working around power distribution systems for 18 years and have seen many ugly accidents so I have a respect for voltage, current and power. I've seen a guy nearly lose his eye sight when his socket wrench shorted across two lugs of a 480V primary transformer that was hot. I burnt all the hair off my arm and was blinded for two minutes when I mistakenly placed a meter across incoming 480V to measure voltage and didn't check that someone had left the leads on current measurement (shunted two phases together across a 10A fuse). One of my favorite stories of the grizzled electrician working with power on was my friend's dad who used to check breakers by putting his forefinger and pinky finger across the contacts which passed current through his hand for a quick 'tickle'. His young apprentice, seeing this, tried to mimick the behavior, but unfortunately used the forefinger of EACH hand, sending current through his arms and across his chest. The kid was lucky he didn't die as he did it across several breakers before the older electrician saw what he was doing.

So, bottom line...CUT THE POWER OFF. To not do so is foolish and dangerous.

Mark P

01-12-07, 12:56 PM

IVB,
As for the electrician stories of working with power on, that is an unfortunate truth as many are in a hurry and do things expeditiously. One of my favorite stories of the grizzled electrician working with power on was my friend's dad who used to check breakers by putting his forefinger and pinky finger across the contacts which passed current through his hand for a quick 'tickle'. His young apprentice, seeing this, tried to mimick the behavior, but unfortunately used the forefinger of EACH hand, sending current through his arms and across his chest. The kid was lucky he didn't die as he did it across several breakers before the older electrician saw what he was doing.

So, bottom line...CUT THE POWER OFF. To not do so is foolish and dangerous.Atleast I didnt tell him about the trick for testing breakers without meters but now that its out there............

I was talking light switches, Im not even bold enough to play in panels without disconnect unless its swapping breakers or something but I have witnessed a gaggle of stripped wires lay across the buss in a powered panel that were kicked accidently and sent an electrician about 6' across a room, dazed and confused for a couple minutes and not fully functional for several hours.

You would be the first electrician that cuts the power regardless, every eletrician
I have ever met would never cut power to install light switches unless there are children around and they plan on leaving a switch hang, otherwise, switch out switch in tested and on to the next. This is also saying the electrician is installing his own switches in my example and has 157 to swap out. Your telling me as an electrician, you would cut the power to do this in your own home with 18 years experience. If so, youre the first ever out of the 50 or so I know.

robertmee

01-12-07, 01:08 PM

Your telling me as an electrician, you would cut the power to do this in your own home with 18 years experience. If so, youre the first ever out of the 50 or so I know.

Nope, I'm not an electrician, but design industrial power distribution and control systems. And yes, in my home, I turn off the breaker before I open up a light switch. Call me crazy :p

Dean Roddey

01-12-07, 02:33 PM

My dad was for a long time a high voltage line splicer. Both his boss' hands were completely bone white up past the wrists, while the rest of him was quite tan. He got whacked with a high voltage and I assume it burned the melanin out of his skin or something.

Targus

01-12-07, 02:52 PM

Now I wouldnt do this with 30 or 50 amp circuits

This reveals that your knowledge of Ohms law isn't very good.

I wouldn't suggest anyone take your advice.

CTay

01-12-07, 05:08 PM

An electrician at my church just recently was severely burned over his face, chest and arms when he accidentally shorted some high voltage stuff. I usually don't bother to shut off the power when changing switches out just because it is kind of a pain. After seeing Steve at church, I have a lot more respect for electricity. I probably still won't shut off the power to my low (relatively speaking) voltage light circuits when changing out switches but I'll be a lot more careful...

Another tip... always use cover plates on your switches... When I was younger my Mom was wallpapering the bathroom so she took off the cover around the switch while she wall papered. Well, she didn't finish that night and the next morning I took a shower before going to school. When walking out of the bathroom i just slapped the switch to shut it off like I always did... OUCH. 120v doesn't hurt that bad with dry hands but with wet it is a different story...

Mark P

01-12-07, 06:10 PM

This reveals that your knowledge of Ohms law isn't very good.

I wouldn't suggest anyone take your advice.I dont recall giving any advce other than check into Insteon, Its much more realistically priced than others.

Considering all my 15 amp circuitry is GFI and trips at .5 milliamperes and none of my 30-100 amp circuits are it does make a difference in my case, now I doubt I would stand in a barrel of water and change switches GFI or not but if youre presuming I give advice to change switches I guess youre wrong. I was just saying I noticed how hot Insteons get very hot due to me installing them and testing them out of the gang box. Hows hundreds of others and I work with electrical is just how we do it but I dont remember anyone suggesting others do this.

But thanks for informing me of what I know and dont know considering I have designed several systems that can run 3 phase pump systems using single phase power.

Targus

01-12-07, 06:57 PM

But thanks for informing me of what I know and dont know

I didn't...you revealed that yourself. ;)

I have designed several systems that can run 3 phase pump systems using single phase power.

This doesn't impress me....I'm an EE, I can do that too, but it's not necessary to tell people that, in an attempt to show your intelligence...in fact, it does the opposite.

Mark P

01-12-07, 08:45 PM

This doesn't impress me....I'm an EE, I can do that too, but it's not necessary to tell people that, in an attempt to show your intelligence...in fact, it does the opposite.EE, ME, AE, SE who cares? Spent years dealing with your.......well to keep it nice I will say "change orders" from all of them but Im glad to hear you can do something as well, yet its unintelligent never the less ;)

You guys need to get in the field more often to experience real word situations where folks need 1 mile wire runs, 1 mile away from 3 phase and explain how to be " intelligent" instead of practical

Eden

01-13-07, 12:26 AM

smalliehunter

01-13-07, 02:51 AM

Hi Mark, first of all, let me tell you how impressed I am with your HT, let's just say that I'm speachless!

Secondly, I am thinking about going with Insteon and after looking at the quality of work you do and how much attention to detail you put into your work, your confidence in the Insteon product has really caught my attention. Obviously you are a very good Tradesmen and know quality and value when you see it, is the Insteon product still working for you as per your previous posts. I was looking at Lutron RadioRA as well, but I just can't justify the cost, I have no problem paying for a product that is worth it, but if I can have the same reliability, functions and ability to control my lighting with spending only a fraction of the cost, then I don't have any problem going that route. I'd rather add another amp to my system then spend money where it's not justified.

I have a Mechanical contracting firm in Victoria BC and see a lot of money spent in the Construction industry where it shouldn't be, just because it's a prestigious and expensive product doesn't mean it's worth it...

By the way, I can totally relate to your C.O. comment...

Any updated info would be much appreciated on the Insteon product.

Thanks,
Morey

Dean Roddey

01-13-07, 03:32 AM

Mark P

01-13-07, 08:37 AM

I have no problem paying for a product that is worth it, but if I can have the same reliability, functions and ability to control my lighting with spending only a fraction of the cost, then I don't have any problem going that route. I'd rather add another amp to my system then spend money where it's not justified.

I have a Mechanical contracting firm in Victoria BC and see a lot of money spent in the Construction industry where it shouldn't be, just because it's a prestigious and expensive product doesn't mean it's worth it...

By the way, I can totally relate to your C.O. comment...

Any updated info would be much appreciated on the Insteon product.

Thanks,
Morey
First of all I have a couple friends that live in Port A and get up there about once a year and visit and head over to Victoria, you live in a wonderful area! Hows youre winter been? Ours here in Oregon has been pretty horrible until this week.

Insteon has worked great for me but it seems some folks had problems with them, Im willing to bet most of the problems with them are people stacking a couple in gangs, running close to max wattage or not understanding that you cant put two 600w load dimmers together and power 700 watts between the two if they are next to eachother. They do get very hot and I was pretty uncomfortable with this and called the people that make Insteon and had a pretty thourough talk about my concerns , they assured me everything was fine.

The only thing I do not like about them is the LEDs are very bright, I changed to all blue and they are still pretty bright at night, it looks " cool" but is pretty bright. If you go that route I say buy a handful and try them a couple days or I can send you a PLC and a couple switches to try before you buy. I bought spares of everything except signal enhancers so if you bought 2 of these ( I use 6 but am running Insteon in other buildings and across 11000 sq ft with a couple coffered ceilings) I think these companies should go to a Try before you buy system where they send out starter kits and you pay if you like and return if you dont.

The other thing Im not excited about is since the LED is so bright it shines behind the paddle and illuminates it slightly allowing you to see a faint casting ribs and connector holes. This is at night only with lights off or dimmed to low levels.

Yeah the C.O thing was always fun, better yet was the monthly progress walkthrough on bigger projects where the suits would walk around adjusting their shiny hardhats looking down their noses at everyone even though they usually did this from below as we proceeded to inform them how smart they really were, the dumbfounded looks were always priceless when you told them they were holding up progress and fines were about to be applied and it wasnt the problem of the Mechanical or General. Decent ones this could be handled with a phone call and everyone got along but you always seemed to get one that threw around snide remarks and were convinced they were Gods Gift so you would proceed just enough to make it sting a little. Being a Mechanical, Im sure your "hands" could really do alot of damage in just one day. Ive seen entire Mechanical rooms gutted more than once due to faulty braintrust.

Mark P

01-13-07, 08:55 AM

With these types of products you can't necessarily go by anyone else's experience. For every person who is happy with Insteon, Z-Wave, or UPB, you will find others for whom it was a disappointment and others for whom it's somewhere between a dissapointment and great. In some ways, that's kind of what that extra cost is for with the higher end products. You know the RA will work, whereas the lower cost ones may not work out for you for whatever reason, sometimes reasons unknown. It's likely they'll be fine, but you'll already have spent the money and put in the time before you know for sure.

I'm not trying to dissuade you, just pointing out what that extra money buys you. For a DIY, it might not be so big a deal, as long as you test the waters first. For a professional, they need to know it's going to work on every job.True, or you can inform the customer they could save as much as a new car in some cases ( like mine) and they may have to experience a switch or two going bad just to let them know someones had troubles but others havent. Some may consider tens of thousands in savings worth the unreliability ( what ever the unreliability is, Ive seen where people werent installing them properly and burning them up, maybe theres more than that)

Like the Insteon reps will tell you, theyve shipped millions and if they were junk and unreliable they would be out of business with returns. I am concerned with longevity but this we will not know for 20 years. I know they were a pain for automation folks to deal with but it seems that has improved greatly in 4 months just from my experience

Mark P

01-13-07, 09:01 AM

Better yet, when people say Insteon is unreliable so buy products that are triple the price, it would be nice to hear whats unreliable. If people are going to claim something is inferior, a slightly expanded reason would be nice so this could be taken to the inferior company and asked why this is the case. I think from their perspective everything seems fine with their product.

Mark P

01-13-07, 09:19 AM

I have found that the failure rated when installing UPB products is much higher when working hot. I always thought I was faster working hot until about a year ago we started advising our clients that we would be doing a whole house shutdown during dimmer installs. Our speed has been greatly improved, remember most smart dimmers require a nuetral, if you try it I think you will like it. You can prove your a man in other ways!Proving your a man has little or nothing to do with it and I had zero problems installing hot, what I did gain was knowing the dimmer was good as well as setting ramp rates, dimmed settings and linking switches. Also when you have 150 switches sometimes you just cant remember which switch operates which light and considering Insteon only has 1 load switch and the ultimate is 1 load per gang I probably saved a half a day of walking miles up and down stairs and across the house, I would list some other reasons but it seems Im trying to convince people this is the way to do it when in reality, its just the way I do it because I have no intellect

Targus

01-13-07, 10:22 AM

its just the way I do it because I have no intellect

You're just not familiar with Ohms law, and, because of that, have this strange idea that a 15 Amp circuit won't hurt you. It's actually pretty funny, in a morbid sort of way. ;)

myurochko

01-13-07, 11:25 AM

Mark P - Thank you very much for your in depth insights on Insteon. Seriously, I think this is the best discussion about that product on the web.

Just to clarify - you are saying the switches can get warm, and esp if a couple are placed in the same gang, could burn each other out? So basically, just install 600W dimmers in their own boxes and everything should be fine, right? These things aren't getting so warm as to pose a firehazard are they?

I did ask on another thread if anyone had any leads to a head to head comparison of Insteon vs RadioRa and probably Centralite (which has gotten some good press as well). Anyone hear of any other real world reviews?

btw - Yup, I know as well that most electricians swap out switches hot - esp because there are inevitably other subs around that need power for air compressors, table saws, etc. I actually just had to do this on a remodel we were doing. There is a longer term risk though in that the tickles can eventually fray your nerves in your finger tips to the point where there is no feeling left, but I guess that is the mark of the tradesman.

Thanks Mark P for doing your best to stay on topic though - its very helpful.

Dean Roddey

01-13-07, 01:34 PM

Like the Insteon reps will tell you, theyve shipped millions and if they were junk and unreliable they would be out of business with returns. I am concerned with longevity but this we will not know for 20 years. I know they were a pain for automation folks to deal with but it seems that has improved greatly in 4 months just from my experience

X-10 sold many times more than that I'm sure, so I'm not sure that's really a valid metric wrt to reliability.

smalliehunter

01-14-07, 01:29 PM

Mark, weather has been real bad here for the past few weeks. We had a dumping of snow last week and a drop in temp down to -8c, very uncommon for this area and keeping our Service Dept VERY busy, slowed down our sites as well, especially the decks ready for steel and canning.

I'm ok with the loads on the dimmers, and will make sure I follow your advise on the groupings and locations. Appreciate the offer on the loner, I think I'll just go ahead and order a few from Smarthome before I order the required amount. Never thought about the LED brightness issue, but I can see that being a bit of a pain. I'm going to have a technician buddy of mine have a look and see if he can possibly bring the brightness down with a resistor or whatever else is needed. I know this will void the warranty, but I think it's worth a try. He builds GPS tracking devices for the US military, that's all he has told me and is willing to tell me and that's all I really want to know.

I've been pretty lucky the past 4 or 5 years working on a local golf resort with a team of Consultants, Construction Managers & Owners that really know what they're doing and who know how to work as a team and get things done. The days of 300k deficiency holdbacks for design issues that we have nothing to do with, are gone for a while, hopefully I have at least another 10 years on this one before going back to Schools and other similar headaches.

Anyway, enough of that, I'll let you know how it goes with the LEDs.

gbirk

01-15-07, 07:34 PM

Mark - with all those Insteon switches, what software did you use for link management or did you use the Tap method?

audiblesolutions

01-15-07, 10:37 PM

Mark P

01-16-07, 07:43 AM

Mark - with all those Insteon switches, what software did you use for link management or did you use the Tap method?I started with the manual setup and it works fine ( most reliable if not using automation)

I tried Houselinc and found it to be ........well..............crap, but Im sure it serves a purpose or maybe they have updated the software and it wont mess up your Insteon system anymore.

Now I use Cinemars Mainlobby Server since they added a Insteon management system in their December Beta Plugin, I used it to redo all my switches and set ramp/dimmed rates and scenes/grouping

Mark P

01-16-07, 08:33 AM

People do unsafe things every day and they get away with it until the day they don't. Habits of thought are not so different from behavioral habits. Just because you have done something for years without incident does not make it right, safe or smart. True, many electricians do install fixtures hot, including dimmers--save on my jobs because I'll kill power to every service panel because I'm also an under-educated dunce without any field experience. Yours is without a doubt the faster method of installing products. It is also more dangerous and more likely to cause a product failure. Making something work fast can have its merits. Following safe installation practices and procedures has merits of its own. You may justify your unsafe practices all you want --and the primary reason for being unsafe is speed and thus money--but safety has no dollar value until you've made an unlucky mistake and find yourself in the hospital. It may not happen often and it may be called a freak accident but having witnessed someone fly off a ladder after being zapped by 277va as if it were a special effect in a movie does provide one with a sense that caution may be the better part of valor. I'll grant you the unlikelihood of someone dying from wiring a smart device hot if you will concede that it can happen. It may be worth the risk for the financial rewards until the odds catch up to you and then it will be the plurality who will absorb the costs of your risk tolerance. It is an unwise and unsafe installation practice and the fact that it's common place is no defense. People drive at unsafe speeds too every day. It does not make the behavior more safe because it is also commonplace.

AlanTo me, I see much more risk in installing off because of the number of times travelling up and down carpeted stairs increases and Im pretty sure more people have died falling down stairs than installing light switches hot, unless of course they were installing a hot switch in a staircase and were startled. I dont install switches on ladders, I dont install them standing in tubs of water but all kidding aside I agree if you arent familiar with installing and working with electrical equipment, hit the breakers. Obviously its common sense, I doubt someone who dosent ski rides the lift to the top and rides the red trails. Higher Failure rate with power on Im not getting entirely, Ive installed thousands of different devices hot and never, ever experienced failure, Is there a difference between throwing a breaker and connecting a wire? Do the linemen you see working on the lines after a storm and powerlines are laying around on the ground shut off the power?

But you are correct, dont listen too me, heres one of my many experimental playgrounds where I do my EEing, the only reason theres any conduit at all is because I have to close permits here and again and need inspections. Im pretty sure theres now fewer than 5 violations if an inspector walked in right now but this is all getting relocated sometime when Im completely finished playing and experimenting. I wont show you the really bad area because a few of you may have a coronary just knowing theres rooms like this and they may be right next to you

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y280/GoBigRed/Picture154.jpg

digitalready

01-16-07, 09:49 AM

hey guys, i am looking at using insteon from all my readings for my lighting. my qeustion is, how do i control the lights via my ir remote control. I already have a server in the basement for my media storage and serving using xbmc. what do i need? I will prolly try the CQC software and the Free insteon software, but how do i get the ir signal to the computer, and what is a cheap way to just activate simple lighting plans? do i just use a media center remote and adapter?

IVB

01-16-07, 12:34 PM

Get an IR receiver so the PC can trap the inbound IR signal. Based on which rooms you're talking about controlling lights from/to, you may need an IR->RF repeating remote like the UNC's MX series. You use the remote in any room of the house, and it sends an RF command through the walls to the RF basestation next to your server, which then transmits IR to your IR receiver that's sitting on the server. I have an MX850, but that's an elephant gun too. I hear folks like the lower-end stuff too (MX600??) but I don't have experience with that.

You could also go with something like an R2DI PCI card or the GlobalCache solution to get IR to the basement, but again, I have no personal knowledge of that.

Inside CQC's event manager, you setup a triggered event that when it receives the IR signal you designate , it should turn these lights on/off. Just use a remote for something you don't own anymore, or isn't in that room.

If you want something literally just for lights and not much else, you could also try Girder. It has an insteon plugin. If you'll be moving into more HA, using multiple computers and/or PPCs, multiple devices, etc, CQC would be better. But just for a single thing like lighting is overkill.

Did that answer your question of "how to activate simple lighting plans"?

digitalready

01-17-07, 08:43 AM

IVB

01-17-07, 11:25 AM

Do you mean "how does the computer see the IR signal" or "how do I get an IR signal to a computer in another room"?

digitalready

01-17-07, 02:32 PM

Do you mean "how does the computer see the IR signal" or "how do I get an IR signal to a computer in another room"?

i take a computer and plug it into one of the usb transmitters for the insteon devices to send commands out. But with my ir remote how do i send commands to the computer, or the insteon devices in the same room. If i have a rf remote control i can talk to the insteon directly, but what about ir. do i need something like this?

from newegg Item=N82E16880300006 (sorry, cant post urls yet) or is there another solution?

IVB

01-17-07, 06:16 PM

Not sure if any software out there supports that particular device.

So let's take this conversation in pieces - first let's assume the PC and IR receiver is in the same room as the remote. Something like the USB-UIRT or IRMan IR receiver that is definitely supported by a variety of software programs would work - you would:
1) tell the software program what action to perform (ie turn on a light via that insteon USB transmitter),
2) Tell the program you're about to press a button on the remote and so it should listen and to the IR receiver and affiliate whatever code comes in with the above action
3) Press the button on the remote.

If that makes sense, then we can discuss how to handle your "pc is actually in the basement" situation.

Mark P

01-17-07, 08:55 PM

An RF remote wont work with Insteon from what I am aware, are you trying to get an IR Remote to work anywhere in the house on any Insteon anywhere in the house? Or just one or two rooms?

smalliehunter

01-17-07, 09:42 PM

Hi Mark, do you know if Philips Pronto Pro RF is the same as Insteon RF or is there a way to convert the RF signal and avoid going the IR route?

Thanks,
Morey

IVB

01-17-07, 09:45 PM

An RF remote wont work with Insteon from what I am aware, are you trying to get an IR Remote to work anywhere in the house on any Insteon anywhere in the house? Or just one or two rooms?

Also, do those rooms have PCs in them or not? Not a big deal either way, but the solution needs to be architected to match.

Mark P

01-18-07, 01:48 AM

digitalready

01-18-07, 09:55 AM

Smallie,
From my understanding Insteon does not work with RF, I have several Universal Remote MX 850 and MX 950 and supposedly they wont work with Insteon ( I think I could fake it out via the MX Base station which I use for both IR and RF but haent tested it). Since I use a touchscreen its easy to control Insteon anywhere from anywhere but if you were wanting to go IR from a remote, Im guessing wireless IR Transmitter/receivers in the rooms you want control from with a USB-UIRT at the PC running your control software.

Im not positive what it is you want to do exactly but Im sure its possible if you go into full details of types of remotes and where the insteons and PCs are as IVB stated. This stuff is sort of finiky if you dont get the right stuff

that is what i am planning on doing, with 1 pc in the basement, wireing up touchscreens via twinbee or thin clients in the rooms. Ir recievers in the rooms that i dont have a touchscreen. I will look at the usb-uirt device and get my stuff going. is hooking touchscreens up to a computer or thin client the cheapest solution? i see some programmable touchscreens, but their prices seem awful high to just control some switches or lights.

MadAboutLights

01-18-07, 10:28 AM

I can tell you guys one thing with complete confindence... stay clear of the Lutron/AMX combination. I have spent thousands on this system and it has very low functionality. The programmer spent way too much time figuring it out. Lights go on/off at weird times for no apparent reason. I currently cannot access the UI because it's now corrupt. Why, I don't know. The programmer claims that the only way for this to occur is for someone to disconnect all the switches and reboot.

Yeah right. I had nothing to do one day, so I disconnected all of my automated switches and then rebooted the system.

I used to own an X-10 system. Yes, it was a bit quirky but ten times better than Lutron/AMX at 1/10th the cost.

I'm going to toss that AMX controller in the lake and start over.

fletch999

01-18-07, 11:19 AM

Mad what you are saying is ludicrous. Lutron Homeworks and AMX are installed together in thousands of homes, businesses, hotels etc etc. It is bulletproof if, and here is where you are having a problem, INSTALLED AND PROGRAMMED CORRECTLY.

It is with 100% certainty that I can tell you that if you have a homeworks system controlled by AMX and it doesn't work properly, you hired the wrong integrator. If properly installed and programmed this combination will be 100% reliable and capable of more functionality than just about any other system available, especially any powerline system.

IVB

01-18-07, 02:51 PM

that is what i am planning on doing, with 1 pc in the basement, wireing up touchscreens via twinbee or thin clients in the rooms. Ir recievers in the rooms that i dont have a touchscreen. I will look at the usb-uirt device and get my stuff going. is hooking touchscreens up to a computer or thin client the cheapest solution? i see some programmable touchscreens, but their prices seem awful high to just control some switches or lights.

Before you buy the USBUIRT, spec out the entire solution. If you use that, you'll need some way to get the IR to the basement. That means an IR repeater type solution, I use the MX850 remote with the MRF300 base station/repeater sitting in the basement. When I press a button on the MX850, it knows to send an RF signal to the basement to the MRF300. The MRF300 then sends an IR signal to the USBUIRT which CQC picks up on and turns on/off lights or heat or whatever I've programmed it to do. The MX850 is probably overkill for this, there's cheaper ones out there, but I can't speak to them as I don't have experience there.

The other option is something i'm not familiar with, which is something in the R2DI PCI card or GlobalCache family. In those, you can use a regular remote, but you use their hardware to get the signal to the basement. As I've now exhausted my knowledge of them, i'll shut up but check that out if you don't want an MX-series

Not sure what you're looking at for touchscreens, but I use Fujitsu 3400 tablet PCs off eBay for $160 each. Not the most elegant cosmetically, but they're functional and since they're full PC's I can fat-client them and get great reliability.

QQQ

01-19-07, 12:46 AM

Mad what you are saying is ludicrous.
Correct, he's either a TROLL or had a horrible installer. Lutron is ROCK SOLID.

digitalready

01-19-07, 08:53 AM

Before you buy the USBUIRT, spec out the entire solution. If you use that, you'll need some way to get the IR to the basement. That means an IR repeater type solution, I use the MX850 remote with the MRF300 base station/repeater sitting in the basement. When I press a button on the MX850, it knows to send an RF signal to the basement to the MRF300. The MRF300 then sends an IR signal to the USBUIRT which CQC picks up on and turns on/off lights or heat or whatever I've programmed it to do. The MX850 is probably overkill for this, there's cheaper ones out there, but I can't speak to them as I don't have experience there.

The other option is something i'm not familiar with, which is something in the R2DI PCI card or GlobalCache family. In those, you can use a regular remote, but you use their hardware to get the signal to the basement. As I've now exhausted my knowledge of them, i'll shut up but check that out if you don't want an MX-series

Not sure what you're looking at for touchscreens, but I use Fujitsu 3400 tablet PCs off eBay for $160 each. Not the most elegant cosmetically, but they're functional and since they're full PC's I can fat-client them and get great reliability.

well, i already have a harmony remote, and i love it. other rooms would possibly need a remote, but the main living room will need an ir repeater or long reciever.

as for the touchscreens, do they stay on all the time or do they go into standby when not in use?

Mark P

01-19-07, 10:08 AM

well, i already have a harmony remote, and i love it. other rooms would possibly need a remote, but the main living room will need an ir repeater or long reciever.

as for the touchscreens, do they stay on all the time or do they go into standby when not in use?Digitalready,
Im far from a pro at this but let me try and help.

From my understanding Insteons RF is only for 'boosting signal' for Insteon devices, it cant be duplicated from a remote control using RF or IR Directly.

But.......

If you want to use your Harmony to control Insteon this is easy via an HTPC/automation PC using either Cinemar(Mainlobby) or CQC and maybe other, cheaper software and a USB-UIRT and wireless IR Transmitter/receivers in any room you want control with your remote

If you have coax running to every room you can also use this to send IR signals from one area to another if $50 wireless IR receive/transmit arent usable, I use the Jensens ( Bestbuy, Radio Shack brand are garbage) and the Jensens have zero troubles with coffered ceilings and multiple stories and long range)

If you use a wireless touchscreen this is all very easy, I have an MX 850 and 950 but choose not to use them anymore but if I did, they are RF/IR and send a signal RF to anywhere in the house to the MRF300 base station which I still use as my main IR distribution center because it sits with my HTautomationPC and is hardwired into the USB-UIRT

I have to give a nod to Cinemars Mainlobby as of now because it has an Insteon management plugin that allows goups and scenes that are dimmable and rampable as well as PLC setups. Basically you Install Insteons ( write down each switch # which are something like 07.D5.07 or 05 K3.27 also write down what room its in!) Link switches manually where as 3 switches operate 1 light, I can turn on deck lights with 5 different switches so one Insteon is the load switch and the other 4 are just linked to that switch

After everything is working to your liking as far as linked then you would go into Mainlobbyserver open the Insteon Plugin and click "add device" then type # in and the room its in, set ramp rates and Dimmed states and make any groups you want ( I have many like party modes where all on and most on will turn every light in the house on to individual ramped/dimmed states, very cool and time saving with 150 switches)

Then you would open the USB-UIRT plugin and learn an UNUSED Harmony button and name them Insteon, Im guessing the Harmony has ways of putting it into different modes like a lighting mode so you could use the 1-10 buttons as different scenes or groups.

Finally you would just make a macro that basically would say " when I press # 2 on the harmony, it turns on group 2 in the MLLighting/insteon plugin" it sounds sort of hard and confusing but its very easy once you get the first couple done.

If you want help, PM me your phone# and I could walk you through this or explain much better than typing. Im also pretty busy while the suns shining as of now but nights are free and if you would choose this route we could have you up and running very fast

IVB

01-19-07, 12:57 PM

Mark walked through it pretty well, my only difference is that I chose the MX850 because of the MRF300 RF base station/repeater which is a rock-solid piece of equipment. I put the MRF300 in my equivalent to your basement, so the signal goes wirelessly from MX850->MRF300->USBUIRT->CQC->Lighting.

I used to have an MX800 w/MRF150 base station (still do actually), but I have so much dang stuff in my a/v closet that the v1.0 MRF150 which was susceptible to RF interference couldn't repeat accurately.

I can't do phone support since my kids schedules and moods are too unpredictable, but there are a bunch of folks who hang out in the chat room at cqcusers.com. You could always poke your head in there if you had any questions. We get folks who jump in for the strangest things, so don't think any question is too bizarre or stupid :)

digitalready

01-22-07, 09:06 AM

Digitalready,
Im far from a pro at this but let me try and help.

From my understanding Insteons RF is only for 'boosting signal' for Insteon devices, it cant be duplicated from a remote control using RF or IR Directly.

But.......

If you want to use your Harmony to control Insteon this is easy via an HTPC/automation PC using either Cinemar(Mainlobby) or CQC and maybe other, cheaper software and a USB-UIRT and wireless IR Transmitter/receivers in any room you want control with your remote

If you have coax running to every room you can also use this to send IR signals from one area to another if $50 wireless IR receive/transmit arent usable, I use the Jensens ( Bestbuy, Radio Shack brand are garbage) and the Jensens have zero troubles with coffered ceilings and multiple stories and long range)

If you use a wireless touchscreen this is all very easy, I have an MX 850 and 950 but choose not to use them anymore but if I did, they are RF/IR and send a signal RF to anywhere in the house to the MRF300 base station which I still use as my main IR distribution center because it sits with my HTautomationPC and is hardwired into the USB-UIRT

I have to give a nod to Cinemars Mainlobby as of now because it has an Insteon management plugin that allows goups and scenes that are dimmable and rampable as well as PLC setups. Basically you Install Insteons ( write down each switch # which are something like 07.D5.07 or 05 K3.27 also write down what room its in!) Link switches manually where as 3 switches operate 1 light, I can turn on deck lights with 5 different switches so one Insteon is the load switch and the other 4 are just linked to that switch

After everything is working to your liking as far as linked then you would go into Mainlobbyserver open the Insteon Plugin and click "add device" then type # in and the room its in, set ramp rates and Dimmed states and make any groups you want ( I have many like party modes where all on and most on will turn every light in the house on to individual ramped/dimmed states, very cool and time saving with 150 switches)

Then you would open the USB-UIRT plugin and learn an UNUSED Harmony button and name them Insteon, Im guessing the Harmony has ways of putting it into different modes like a lighting mode so you could use the 1-10 buttons as different scenes or groups.

Finally you would just make a macro that basically would say " when I press # 2 on the harmony, it turns on group 2 in the MLLighting/insteon plugin" it sounds sort of hard and confusing but its very easy once you get the first couple done.

If you want help, PM me your phone# and I could walk you through this or explain much better than typing. Im also pretty busy while the suns shining as of now but nights are free and if you would choose this route we could have you up and running very fast

Thanks for the good information, I am going to order my insteon starter kit this week, i dont move into my new house where it will be used until the first week in feburary, but i want to play with some of the software to see which one i will use.

thanks

MadAboutLights

01-23-07, 05:08 PM

Correct, he's either a TROLL or had a horrible installer. Lutron is ROCK SOLID.

TROLL you say? Let's be nice. Yes, apparently I got a horrible installer. What's worse, there are no installers where I live (upstate South Carolina). I've been searching and searching. Even the AMX dealer support in Atlanta can't find any. They will not respond to e-mail or phone requests. Nor will the original programmer (who now works for them) respond. I just don't get it. Trust me, this isn't a money issue. I've got a broken system I paid dearly for and will be forced to discard the AMX due to lack of customer support. I'll keep the Lutron box and find something else to control.

Now then, can you smart guys provide me with some advice? I'd really appreciate it.