"I'm surprise you didn't Boycott Fox!" - Anyone here doing it? [Text View]

eizenga13

10-06-06, 11:43 PM

I haven't purchased a SD since 3/06. I may be only one man but I was one man with 850+ SD DVD's, I have begun the sell off, and trust me if Fox won't put out HD DVD and BD stays how it is, well I won't appologize for NEVER buying another Fox picture... Take that to the bank!

I already own:

1) Star Wars Saga
2) Die Hard Trilogy
3) Master and Commander: The Far Side of the World

If Fox wants to play hard ball and be stubborn then to hell with them TWO (Million) can play at that game, I "DO NOT" (and that is the key phrase there) have to buy a Fox title, Warners back catalog alone will keep me satisfied for years to come!

suprmallet

10-06-06, 11:51 PM

X-Men 3 is more than enough to make me boycott Fox, regardless of which format they're releasing their movies on.

DigitalfreakNYC

10-07-06, 12:14 AM

I refuse to buy Fox/Sony DVDs, but I will rent them. If I want the movie bad enough, I'll get a blank DVD-R and...you know.
Thank you. Exactly.

Buying them is just funding BD.

MickB

10-07-06, 12:20 AM

HomerJay

10-07-06, 12:20 AM

I am guilty of purchasing one DVD since April. It was the Prison Break box set. I didn't think anything of it at the time since the new season was about to start. Now I don't buy any DVDs...not on the principle that it's from a non HD DVD studio but on the principle that it's DVD!

As far as the non HD DVD studios are concerned I just don't see them holding off for much longer. There's too much demand for HD DVD versus Blu-ray for them to stay away. I know I'm looking forward to Sony's first HD DVD release!!

b.greenway

10-07-06, 12:22 AM

I suppose I’m already boycotting them by proxy, I don’t buy SD discs anymore and they don’t offer HD DVD’s, so…

Robert D

10-07-06, 12:27 AM

I will rent any BR exclusive title. My first choice is to suport HD DVD all the way. I will buy at least 2 HD DVD's per month from Target to show support at that store for HD DVD. My other purchases will be from Amazon.

Not to get OT but I believe that the HD DVD pricing at Target is going to be very similar to Amazon's. Not please back to boycotting Fox. :)

Dr Kain

10-07-06, 12:53 AM

I refuse to buy Sony movies, that aren't Extended Editions. I will not buy Underworld Evolution until the EE comes out. Same will apply to The Davinci Code.

However, boycotting their titles is meaningless to me as first they have to have something I want to buy. I want X3, but Brett says in the commentary that a 2 disc edition is in the works for when Wolverine hits theaters, so I'll pass.

Gary Murrell

10-07-06, 01:01 AM

Fox is one of my favorite studios, they supported D-Theater and I will support any system they release on, regarding HD only

Sony has many many movies I like also

I was done with SD-DVD years ago

-Gary

Maxflier

10-07-06, 01:02 AM

I am a fellow Fox boycotter, i think Prison Break was the last one i purchased from them also.

1loudsuv

10-07-06, 01:26 AM

i was at target and walmart andi think it was 9.95 on special and i was like heh i aint supporting them

Rob Tomlin

10-07-06, 02:10 AM

eizenga13

10-07-06, 02:52 AM

Boycott Fox?

Why the hell would I do that? They were the best supporter of D-Theater and released some of the best looking titles ever in HD (Xmen and I, Robot) they have released some great DVD's, and they have some excellent titles in their vaults.

Does the phrase "cutting off your nose to spite your face" apply here?

If they don't support HD DVD then I will 1000% Boycott them and not lose an ounce of sleep over it...

Besides any studio pushing "X-Men 3 direct by that guy from Rush Hour"

No thanks!

Gary Murrell

10-07-06, 03:06 AM

stevenjw

10-07-06, 03:07 AM

I have two HD-A1s (thanks OnePass), but I'm not opposed to buying BD down the road if a good player is as reasonably priced and the disc PQ improves (using VC-1 or higher bitrate). Until then, I won't touch BD.

Of course I wish that Fox would release movies in both formats now, but I'm not going to boycott them long term and spite myself. They own/control too many great titles to ignore. In general, I no longer buy SD-DVDs (there are exceptions like anime). I rent instead via Netflix, so Fox and Sony aren't getting my money directly. Maybe these studios will get my money for HiDef down the road on BD or maybe not. One thing is for sure, they'd get it much sooner if they released titles on HD-DVD now.

AaronSCH

10-07-06, 03:18 AM

Though Fox won't be feeling my personal boycott much, I am an entrenched HD DVD supporter and I am not buying many standard DVDs anymore. I RENTED X-Men tonight and purchased "Batman Begins" and "Polar Express" HD DVDs at Target thanks to those DCPI numbers someone supplied!

DigitalfreakNYC

10-07-06, 04:28 AM

buck up and buy a 599$ Samsung, not much more than the Toshiba's, not enough to bitch or complain over, anyone who thinks the Fox BR titles are gonna look anything but good is deceived

-Gary

Or wait for them to start releasing on HD DVD. It's really not that difficult. I can make do with SD DVD's from Fox and Sony for the time being. As I said before, I ain't replacing my SD version with an HD version unless it completely replaces the SD version and thus far, Sony and Fox ain't doing that.

xradman

10-07-06, 04:50 AM

I think I am doing exactly the opposite. I tend to put off buying anything in SD that I think might be released in HD-DVD in the near future. So that means I put off buying SD DVD blockbusters from WB, Universal and Paramount (KK, HP, V for V, etc), whereas I will pickup SD DVD (Ultraviolet, Underworld Evolution, Memoirs, etc) from Sony.

BlackRiderX

10-07-06, 04:52 AM

I only buy TV shows on dvd at this point.

Luckie

10-07-06, 06:40 AM

Didn't I read somewhere here that as a byproduct of making a Vc-1 transfer of a movie both Disney and Fox are , in fact , creating a HD-DVD first ? So why can't they release on that format too ? Not enough DRM ? No region coding perhaps ?

Don't forget that some BD exclusives in U.S. will be released elsewhere in the world on HD-Dvd so f you've already tired of S***'s and Fox's BS all HD hope is not lost. And Disney's recurring 'moratorium' plans for top titles just illustrates the paucity of top executive personnel in that company.

I dont even have a HD-Dvd player yet ( though I've started to buy discs) but IMO the BEST that BD can do is EQUAL HD-DVD so these studios should've followed Warner's example of supporting BOTH formats and therefore making money in the short, medium and longer terms.

~M~

Beastus

10-07-06, 07:33 AM

I buy the movies I want to see. If it's not on HD DVD (rarely is), I buy the standard DVD. I don't have a problem with Fox in patricular, or any other studio. Sure, there can be stuff that annoys me, but I won't boycott any studio because of it.

Bob Black

10-07-06, 08:15 AM

Fox is a top notch studio and always has been, their choice to support BR is their choice, I have always liked Fox and put them at the top of the Home Media game, hopefully their BR will continue this, their D-Theater were the best and they are a #1 SD-DVD studio, and their movie catalog is one of my favorites

buck up and buy a 599$ Samsung, not much more than the Toshiba's, not enough to bitch or complain over, anyone who thinks the Fox BR titles are gonna look anything but good is deceived

-Gary

With all due respect, Gary, Fox has always offered good HT products in every format it produced - they've also consistently been the least consumer-friendly studio and have ALWAYS attempted to bilk the consumers for every dime! Even their LD's were significantly more expensive than the other studios (remember all their $50 - $70 releases (Planet of the Apes, Star Wars, Die Hard, Alien, etc).

They balked at DVD because of their piracy paranoia. They attempted to adopt the rental-priced structure with DVD and charge $80 per disc. They preferred a digital tape format to DVD (so no surprise they latched onto D-Theater so aggressively). They supported DIVX, helping keep that idiotic format alive. They publicly criticized Warner Brothers for their aggressive pricing of DVD's, especially their release of "The Matrix" (which, ironically, became the biggest-selling title with over 1.5 million units in its first few weeks of release in 1999).

And now they are exclusive to Blu-Ray, and their inital slate of titles continues to demonstrate their greed and paranoia with MSRP of $40 per disc (which, ironically, was the same inflated price of their first DVD's as well). Consumers are favoring HD-DVD by a margin of 11 to 1 in software sales right now, but Fox's Mike Dunn continues to spout BS about their being "no format war" because BD will trounce HD-DVD. He is Bill Mechanic all over again - another clown running Fox with an iron-fist and no brains. They will support any idiotic format (DIVX, UMD, DVHS) that has no future or promise of widespread adoption so long as there is no chance of high quality video that can be replicated and pirated. Yet they will shun a format that may become the new standard in HT because of their paranoia.

I've said it on other forums as well - Fox is run by backwards-thinking people. They use price-gouging tactics with every format, yet are paranoid about piracy. They can't seem to grasp the notion that overpricing is what leads to piracy - an idea that Warner seems to understand very well.

So, to answer the original question, not ONLY have I stopped buying Fox titles (along with all other SD DVD's), I have also been returning all my Fox DVD's that were unopened. I will NOT buy both formats - not because I can't afford to, but because I REFUSE to be pressured by greedy, pompous studios who try to use political motives to sway my buying decisions.

Mr. Integration

10-07-06, 08:31 AM

SirDrexl

10-07-06, 10:20 AM

I can make do with SD DVD's from Fox and Sony for the time being.

Digi, actually this thread is about not buying their DVDs. :)

TomsHT

10-07-06, 10:21 AM

I havent set out to boycott anyone (except a few specific actors that decide to play at politics) but that being said after reading this thread I did realize that all the movies I have purchased for the last 3-4 months are all HD DVD's and I havent purchased anymore dvd's with the exception of a couple Disney movies for the kiddies. So overall I guess these studios are already losing my money already

plazman

10-07-06, 10:26 AM

oliverjg

10-07-06, 10:35 AM

i have nothing against fox. if they are stupid enough to lock their movies in a lab instead of selling them that is their problem.

if BD had the best price/performace i would be buying that. i'm not spending a $1000 for a player just to play fox movies.

i already have 12 hd dvds and another batch on order and i have had the player for a week.

fox is boycotting their own products by not puttting them in the format i am using.

nyg

10-07-06, 10:37 AM

ryoohki

10-07-06, 10:47 AM

I won't consider fox until they bring Alien and Aliens. Those 2 would temp me to go BluRay if they are exclusive... other than that...a 499$ player that is not a PS3 should do the job too..

ManiG

10-07-06, 10:50 AM

In a sense I am boycotting them. I dont buy SD DVD's anymore. I only buy HD DVDs. Currently it is impossible for me to buy a Fox HD DVD. So for the time being Fox is not getting any of my money. Their loss ... not mine. I'm busy enough enjoying the other studios' HD releases.

plazman

10-07-06, 10:51 AM

What a dumb idea! I guess by all rights then a BD supporter should boycott Universal. What you guys are suggesting is assinine and the potential loss caused by a dozen or so fanboys here is laughable at best. Like Fox will even notice. Surely you guys can come up with more constructive ideas than this!

Here's the bottom line:

You all knew what the studio support for HD DVD was when you bought into the format. What we should feel sorry for you guys now?! LOL, ain't happening!

Doesn't make sense to boycott Fox by not see their TV channels or going to the movies (because they are not supporting HD DVD). The fact that I can't buy their movies in HD DVD makes them lose money and that's sufficient in a free market. It's for them to decide if they want my HD DVD money....for everything else it's business as usual :)

I only boycott people/places and things I morally oppose. The free market isn't one of them. As much as I would like studios to not take sides, I understand these are business decisions and part of a larger strategy they are following.....I'm not boycotting Sony for instance, I just bought a GPS Navigation system from the Sonystyle store last week :)

joerod

10-07-06, 11:02 AM

I don't look at it as Boycotting Fox. I look at it as Boycotting SD dvds. Besides, I do have a ton of Fox DTHEATER titles that look great. If it wasn't for them we DTHEATER fans would not have had as good as a run as we did. I still watch my DTHEATER collection (92 in all). And the only reason I would consider a Bluray player (Panasonic only) is for them.

David Susilo

10-07-06, 11:07 AM

I've stopped buying SD-DVD since March 2006. I only buy HD-DVD since. So I'm "boycotting" Fox as a side effect of them not making HD-DVD :)

DSKTexas

10-07-06, 11:44 AM

I haven't purchased a SD DVD since I got my A1 two months ago. I have over 400 SD DVDs and 15 HD DVDs. When Fox produces HD DVDs I will be happy to purchase them.

rwduke

10-07-06, 11:53 AM

Fox is boycotting HD-DVD.They are refusing to sell me and many others their product.

I am a consumer with money to spend on Fox Hi-Def movies, but they are boycotting the format I own.

Doesn't really make sense that they would lose sales over blind format loyalty.

David Susilo

10-07-06, 11:55 AM

maybe there is a financial reason (such as payola a'la DIVX) given by BD camp for exclusivity.

Shuley

10-07-06, 12:17 PM

Why would I boycott a movie studio? I didn't boycott the Dixie Chicks :)

Rob Tomlin

10-07-06, 12:23 PM

If they don't support HD DVD then I will 1000% Boycott them and not lose an ounce of sleep over it...

Besides any studio pushing "X-Men 3 direct by that guy from Rush Hour"

No thanks!

Well, you certainly can't argue with that logic!

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Deja Vu

10-07-06, 12:27 PM

Fangrim

10-07-06, 12:41 PM

Boycotting a movie studio, because it also supports BD? *sigh*

Seems to me like the world is one big kindergarten...

darinp2

10-07-06, 12:44 PM

if BD had the best price/performace i would be buying that. i'm not spending a $1000 for a player just to play fox movies. The Samsung is on ebay brand new for $475 right now and deals way less than $1000 have been available. Not saying people should buy it, but that is their option. EDIT: Somebody who ordered one 2 days ago is getting concerned that the $475 auction isn't legit. There are others for under $600.

As far as boycotting, for people who are really only getting HD, passing up on Fox DVDs isn't boycotting them. :)

If more deals like that Samsung continue to show up and Fox does a good job encoding their titles, it will be interesting to see how many people here end up in the same boat as many of us who want access to all the best HD. Owning players for both. I personally don't want to miss out on "Kingdom of Heaven", just like I didn't want to miss out on some titles out on HD DVD.

--Darin

rolltide1017

10-07-06, 12:49 PM

Buying them is just funding BD.
How does buying SD-DVD fund BD? It's not like Fox is going to sell a ton of X3 SD-DVDs and say "look at how great BD is doing." If anything, buying SD-DVDs from Fox is turning your nose up to BD.

My wife and I don't buy as many SD-DVDs as we use too but, since they look really good on the A1 we have no problem buying some. We will only buy the "must have" movies for us. X3 was the first DVD we have bought since getting the A1. We have decided to not buy SD-DVDs from any studio that is supporting HD-DVD. I'm still waiting on V For Vendetta.

nyg

10-07-06, 01:00 PM

I don't look at it as Boycotting Fox. I look at it as Boycotting SD dvds.

That's a much better approach. I haven't bought an SD DVD movie in 3.5 years.

Rachael Bellomy

10-07-06, 01:07 PM

Boycott Fox?.....Does the phrase "cutting off your nose to spite your face" apply here?

Hell ya! Look at that thang bleed. hot dam, I hit meself again, not.....

I rented X3 this week. It was worth that. It was a grubby lookin' disc but then I say that about most DVD's these days. Way, way, beyondo that, Fox has lots of great old films in their hermetically sealed film preservation foot locker. They have some history. Their D-Theater tapes were purr-dy fair! If they make some brilliant Blu discs I'll buy a couple as long as my Samsung will get out of park. I'd rather they did HD-DVD. In time they might?

I rarely buy their or anybody else's DVD's of recent films, why would I? I got spoil't on D-Theater and have no low expectaions left.

AaronSCH

10-07-06, 01:10 PM

There is nothing juvenile about boycotting a competing format that was developed in defiance of what was to be the industry standard, HD DVD. Sony has pushed way too many failed formats and left the consumer hanging with diminishing software and useless hardware. I am boycotting the non-players in HD-DVD simply because I choose to funnel my hard-earned money into the format I believe will eventually triumph. I am not going to be put in a position of buying a Blu-ray player when I already have a flawless high definition, upconverting player sitting in my entertainment center that cost less than $500. The few Fox titles I desire will be fine as rentals for the time being. The titles that Disney is likely to release on Blu-ray are useless to me except for their classic animated features. And if history proves, they will likely be a trickle rather than a rush to the Blu-ray format (if at all). Plus, animation on standard DVD looks pretty damn awesome on my Toshiba HD-A1 anyway. I'm probably not gonna hurt Fox or Disney's bottom line, but the message we send as consumers by standing behind only one high definition format certainly will.

jediod

10-07-06, 01:10 PM

No more FOX for me either. Those idiots could release in both formats just like Paramount, Warner etc. They are being narrow minded idiots and wont see a cent from me.

lyris

10-07-06, 01:16 PM

I won't get all political and there are a few Fox movies I'd like to buy, but I can do without them. They can turn up on HD DVD when they want - Universal's stuff alone is doing me just fine thank you.

nyg

10-07-06, 01:28 PM

You guys are a riot! If Fox released the Star Wars saga on BD you guys would be fighting each other over the remaining in stock Samsung and Panasonic players.

You're not kidding anyone! :rolleyes:

Rob Tomlin

10-07-06, 01:32 PM

AaronSCH

10-07-06, 01:34 PM

Fangrim

10-07-06, 01:35 PM

There is nothing juvenile about boycotting a competing format that was developed in defiance of what was to be the industry standard, HD DVD.

So... If you're able to make a format that's technically better, you shouldn't, because there's already a "standard" out there? Blu-ray developers saw the HD-DVD specs, and thought they could do better - which they did. By following your logic, we'd still be getting things on CD-R.

Please note: By technically better, I mean that BD has more space per layer - I am not speaking about PQ/player quality/price/availability of DL discs here.

AaronSCH

10-07-06, 01:44 PM

tvine2000

10-07-06, 01:50 PM

Maxflier

10-07-06, 01:51 PM

Boycotting a movie studio, because it also supports BD? *sigh*

Actually it is because they ONLY support BD, if they supported both then we obviously would not be having this discussion.

rdjam

10-07-06, 01:52 PM

buck up and buy a 599$ Samsung, not much more than the Toshiba's, not enough to bitch or complain over, anyone who thinks the Fox BR titles are gonna look anything but good is deceived

-Gary
Hi Gary - with full rrrespec' - it's not just about shelling out an extra $700 or so for the priviledge of buying more of their movies, but the fact that much of what is available for that player is flawed.

If they want my money - they know where to find me....

rdjam

10-07-06, 01:58 PM

Boycotting a movie studio, because it also supports BD? *sigh*

Seems to me like the world is one big kindergarten...
Actually - as HD DVD owners, we'd like to buy more HD DVDs. They have chosen to boycott HD DVD, so why would I reward them for it?

HD DVD is the dominant format now - It only fair that we take the view that it's up to them to bring us the goods if they want our money.

Spending anything on Bluray doesn't make sense to me until the format has gotten some consistency. This is the HD DVD section after all, so our views should not be surprising.

However, I am surprised at the prices being quoted for the Samsung Bluray player - they must really be getting desperate. Still now worth it in my view, tho.

johnbe

10-07-06, 02:04 PM

I quit buying sd discs. I am not sure what the last one was I bought. I had both players at one time but returned the Samsung. No big deal just didn't feel like waiting for the update and the titles at the time did look bad. Since then, I feel studio support may be changing, maybe not. When a standalone BD player hits $400 it will be time to re-evaluate the situation. Right now, there are plenty of movies for me to buy and the rest I can rent. I only have so much money to spend anyway. I only want to own the classics anyway. I would buy The Magnificent Ambersons anyway it came out.

lyris

10-07-06, 02:06 PM

HPforMe

10-07-06, 02:12 PM

Friends are over tonight and watching X3: The Last Stand!

One of my buddy knows the deal with this "War" and made a joke about being surprised that I'm not boycotting studio's like Columbia, 20th Century Fox!

My reponse, "I'm not about to let this stop from me buying/watching my movies!"

Now I have to ask, anyone here doing it? LOL

Not a question of boycotting. I just don't buy sd dvds anymore. Makes it easy. This has been reconfirmed even more profoundly yesterday after watching Batman Begins on HD DVD. Blows everything out of the water. Sound and picture make the home theatre movie experience a reality in every way. I'll never go back - upconverted or not. HD DVD rocks.

DigitalfreakNYC

10-07-06, 02:17 PM

I am a Star Wars fanatic but I boycotted the half-hearted, non-anamorphic transfers that were just released as a money grab. You can laugh all you want but I will not re-buy Star Wars again unless it is in HD DVD. I have watched those damn movies so many times, invested way too much money and have developed such a combined dislike for Lucasfilm and Fox that I couldn't give a rat's behind if they were released on Blu-ray tomorrow.

Thank you.

I have a friggin' Star Wars tattoo and I still wouldn't buy into BD if they were released tomorrow. I haven't seen a reason to buy into it yet and Star Wars (considering how QC for Lucas has gone down the sh**ter) won't make me do it.

trgraphics

10-07-06, 02:36 PM

All the Star Wars films will be shown in HD next month. They will probably look better than most of the BR releases, so why bother buying a dog if you can get it for free.

AaronSCH

10-07-06, 02:52 PM

Well, I have to admit I paid for my Dachshund. But I didn't think there was a superior breed at half the price!

nyg

10-07-06, 03:03 PM

All the Star Wars films will be shown in HD next month. They will probably look better than most of the BR releases, so why bother buying a dog if you can get it for free.

No one with a clue believes that the Star Wars films on BD would look worse than some cable/satellite broadcast. Nice try though. :p

tormond

10-07-06, 03:03 PM

Well disney is in the same boat as Fox but I purchased The Little Mermaid last Tuesday on SD (if I hadn't my 3 year old and my 32 year old would have killed me). First SD disc I have bought in probably 4 months after amassing a collection of 2K+ SDDVDs. It doesn't worry me one way or the other who supports what at this point as I am buying HDDVDs only and I only have limited funds to do so with. I could list probably 20 discs that are currently out on HDDVD that I still want to purchase and there are 2 BIG release weeks coming shortly full of titles I want. The iggest problem I have with any of it is still price. HDDVD has basically cost me 2-1 vs SD so my buying power has been cut in about half. I can't afford another 1K player (and no I don't consider buying a "deal" on Ebay as it often turns out to not be a deal...like the Pearl that was for sale last week that the guy E-mailed me that I could own it for $800 if I WU him the money) and HDDVD is keeping me plenty busy without the other studios. Will I be happy if Fox/Disney/Sony/etc shift to HDDVD as well. Sure would but sad as well as thenI would have to explain yet again to my wife why I just "HAD" to have a 5th version of "x" movie.

tormond

10-07-06, 03:04 PM

No one with a clue believes that the Star Wars films on BD would look worse than some cable/satellite broadcast. Nice try though. :p

No one with a clue would have released those Star Wars DVD that were released 3 weeks ago either. My LD Definitive collection looks better and they are close to 10 years old.

nyg

10-07-06, 03:05 PM

Thank you.

I have a friggin' Star Wars tattoo and I still wouldn't buy into BD if they were released tomorrow. I haven't seen a reason to buy into it yet and Star Wars (considering how QC for Lucas has gone down the sh**ter) won't make me do it.

Seriously a SW tattoo? I hope it's not a light saber. If so, I shudder to think where it's located.

David Susilo

10-07-06, 03:07 PM

after releasing only the butchered version of the trilogy, flipped sound channels (and claim there is nothing wrong with it) and now non-anamorphic original trilogy, I'll never buy Star Wars again, let alone buying a $1,000 player just for 6 movies.

Forceflow

10-07-06, 03:21 PM

Fox has always been suspect and anti-consumer as mentioned earlier. The only reason they supported D-THEATER was the same as LD, they had a captive audience that would spend far too much on software. They gouged because they could. Only natural given the situation. HD DVD is different and Warner is a much more friendly company to do business with. I'm glad that I picked a format that produces results and gives me monetary savings. I just think that a boycott is a natural process because its illogical to support BD and therefore Fox until they get their act together.

Oh, and nyg, if Fox released SW on BD, I woudn't bat an eye. I'm a fanatic of Star Wars as well (no tattoo). Its not THE deciding factor for a ~$1000 purchase. I have plenty of great titles on HD DVD to keep me amazed and entertained. Blu-Ray really needs more than just as good as HD DVD to survive. I just don't see that happening anytime soon. Don't expect Fox to care, but that's my point -- they don't care about you who supports them, and they definitely don't care about me. So fu** em.

HomerJay

10-07-06, 03:25 PM

You guys are a riot! If Fox released the Star Wars saga on BD you guys would be fighting each other over the remaining in stock Samsung and Panasonic players.

You're not kidding anyone! :rolleyes:

It wouldn't be worth the price of entry. I, too, passed on the "extra" non-anamorphic original saga. That's a TON of HD DVD movies. Universal, Warner, and Paramount are keeping me plenty busy. They also seem to be putting out much higher quality films (not just in the PQ/AQ sense...that's a given)...although RV and Benchwarmers tempt me every I see them on Blu-ray... :rolleyes:

nyg

10-07-06, 03:29 PM

...although RV and Benchwarmers tempt me every I see them on Blu-ray... :rolleyes:

Don't pretend HD DVD doesn't have it's shame of dud movies as well. ;)

trgraphics

10-07-06, 04:12 PM

No one with a clue believes that the Star Wars films on BD would look worse than some cable/satellite broadcast. Nice try though. :p

You know what. I went back and edited my post. It's pointless responding to someone thats unwilling to see the truth. Have a nice day.

jfrlhobbs

10-07-06, 04:13 PM

Fox, Disney, Lionesgate, etc. have created the boycott for me. :p I will not buy another SD-DVD ever. I will only be buying HD-DVD's from now on. So, with Fox, Disney, Lionsgate and others that do not wish to support this formate with their movies, it's is their loss of revenue. If and when they do decided to produce their titles in the HD-DVD formate, then is when those companies will be receiving my money. :D

Fangrim

10-07-06, 04:26 PM

I am glad you corrected yourself, because so far, I would say HD-DVD is way ahead technically where it counts...image quality. That seems to be changing somewhat for Blu-Ray but so will the space issue for HD DVD. The point is, Blu-ray HAS NOT yet proved to be superior and my HD DVD player has performed flawlessly at less than half the price... so what is your beef?

I didn't correct myself. I clarified what I meant, as not to start any PQ/pricing/whatever arguments. Clearly I failed.

Blu-ray has more space than HD-DVD discs, and ultimately, that's what matters to me. Therefore I support Blu-ray.

/End of relevance to above quote and back on topic:
Boycotting Fox because they don't support HD-DVD? If you don't buy Fox SD movies, but buy Warner SD movies, then I think the biggest loser is you. Youmight as well hold your breath and/or pout until you get your way...

Fangrim

10-07-06, 04:27 PM

David Susilo

10-07-06, 04:36 PM

Blu-ray has more space than HD-DVD discs, and ultimately, that's what matters to me. Therefore I support Blu-ray.

But that's like choosing a house just because it's bigger without looking at the price, ignoring the fact that house is not completely built, the plumbing backed up, etc etc.

Nothing wrong with choosing the bigger house, but I'd rather buy a smaller house with better value, completely built and have a working plumbing.
:D

Fangrim

10-07-06, 05:46 PM

Well, if I need the house for storage, I wouldn't care about the plumbing ;)

My point is, that I won't just be needing BD or HD-DVD for watching movies. I want it as a storage medium too for my PC. I try to see this in a broader perspective that just for movies.

I know that BD has PQ problems, and it's more expensive, you name it - everything BD has done has mostly turned to crap. That ticks me off, and quite frankly, it baffles me that the BD CE companies haven't made better products up until now.

All this is off-topic though. Regarding the topic, I can't see how boycotting Fox movies on SD is going to help any - I think the impact will be way too low for that. Also, it's a hidden message from the non-buyers - by not buying the product, Fox can only see that sales have gone down, they have no way of telling why. I think that what needs to be done, is to make Fox aware of the fact that a lot of people would like to see them do HD-DVD titles, and there's money to be made there.

How this should be accomplished, I have no clue. Signing petitions/emailing them wouldn't help much either I think, as I believe they're way too stubborn to let a bunch of videophiles dictate their distribution policies.

It's a no-win situation, both for the HD-DVD camp (and Blu-ray in the case of Universal releases), but also for the movie companies.

I guess I'll end up getting both systems eventually. Blu-ray on my PS3, and a stand-alone player for HD-DVD. This war sucks.

paulbh

10-07-06, 05:55 PM

I tend to go the "Used" route with SD DVDs as much as possible. It's cheaper and they will hold me over until an HD version is available. I also appreciate the added benefit that it doesn't send a mixed signal (albeit a very small financial one) to Studios that don't support HD DVD. If they want my money all they have to do is release on HD DVD. Doing so results in an immediate pardon. :)

darinp2

10-07-06, 05:57 PM

Fox has always been suspect and anti-consumer as mentioned earlier. The only reason they supported D-THEATER was the same as LD, they had a captive audience that would spend far too much on software. They gouged because they could.I will be happier if they do as well with image quality given the circumstances as they did with D-Theater image quality given those circumstances and gouge me on price, than if they give good prices, but not the image quality they are capable of.

--Darin

The Surfer Dude

10-07-06, 06:18 PM

I don't understand why you guys are getting so angry at FOX for picking a side and staying on it. In reality, FOX putting content out on both formats would only act as a means of dragging out this format war, which all of us should be looking forward to the end of.

Also, FOX chose Blu Ray Disc because of of the BD+ encryption. I don't see what's so bad about FOX wanting to protect their assets as well as they possibly can.

The Surfer Dude

10-07-06, 06:25 PM

I am glad you corrected yourself, because so far, I would say HD-DVD is way ahead technically where it counts...image quality. That seems to be changing somewhat for Blu-Ray but so will the space issue for HD DVD. The point is, Blu-ray HAS NOT yet proved to be superior and my HD DVD player has performed flawlessly at less than half the price... so what is your beef?

I think you should do yourself a favor and pick up Lethal Weapon, Firewall, and Blazing Saddles, or any of the other Warner VC-1 Blu Ray releases.

The problem regarding image quality isn't Blu Ray's fault, it's SONY's for releasing sub par encoded films... It's pretty annoying to constantly see things like this.

David Susilo

10-07-06, 06:49 PM

those titles are at par to HD-DVD, not superior. For the same quality, why would anybody be willing to pay 100% more (or HIGHER) for a player?

Fangrim, as for storage space, I do agree with you. :)

Bob Black

10-07-06, 06:59 PM

Blu-ray has more space than HD-DVD discs, and ultimately, that's what matters to me. Therefore I support Blu-ray.

Sure, BD-50 has more space than HD-DVD, but how many of those can you purchase? Out of 50+ releases on BD, NONE are dual-layered. The first 50 GB disc is scheduled this week, so does that somehow make all the other releases "more spacious"? How many of the announced titles for the coming months are BD-50? Half-a-dozen at best? Therefore, BD has the capability to offer more space, yet does not use this feature very often at all. Does a format actually offer higher capacity if they very seldom utilize the option? Would you call this format higher capacity when 95% of the discs are actually less spacious than HD-DVD? I guess HD-DVD has more capacity about 95% of the time, and BD gets the edge for the other 5%.

What of the articles that point to Sony subsidizing the discs in order to get them to the market affordably? What would the prices of this software be if there were not a format war going on?

After the launch of this format & the BS from Sony, I have no faith in Blu-Ray whatsoever. I have purchased Troy and Batman Begins on HD-DVD and have been blown away - 163 minute film and a 134 minute film with lossless sound, IME exclusive feature, and a boatload of extras. Both films look stellar, and BB has been reviewed as the best release in home theater history! BD is DOA as far as I'm concerned.

David Susilo

10-07-06, 07:01 PM

Bob, to Fangrim's defense, he did mention that when he mentioned space he is also referring to BD-R.

OTOH, I agree with the rest of your post.

The Surfer Dude

10-07-06, 07:23 PM

those titles are at par to HD-DVD, not superior. For the same quality, why would anybody be willing to pay 100% more (or HIGHER) for a player?

Fangrim, as for storage space, I do agree with you. :)

I thought those HD DVD titles were transparent to the master?

Why would you expect Blu Ray to offer increased quality over something that is already transparent to the master?

The master is the weakest link in this chain, not the medium on which it is displayed on, as VC-1 and H.264 are part of Blu Ray's spec, like we all SHOULD already know.

There is nothing stopping a studio from releasing content bit for bit equal on Blu Ray as on HD DVD...

If you're looking at the spec side of things, VC1 = VC1, 54 MB/s > 36 MB/s. I'll allow you to draw your own conclusions from that.

Richard Paul

10-07-06, 07:23 PM

I refuse to buy Fox/Sony DVDs, but I will rent them. If I want the movie bad enough, I'll get a blank DVD-R and...you know.Thank you. Exactly.

Buying them is just funding BD.Piracy and support of piracy simply because you don't like the fact that a few studios are not supporting HD DVD. Think you might be taking this format war a bit to seriously?

Didn't I read somewhere here that as a byproduct of making a Vc-1 transfer of a movie both Disney and Fox are , in fact , creating a HD-DVD first ?No, that was just a rumor and it was recently disproved in the Industry Insiders thread.

They balked at DVD because of their piracy paranoia.Just to point out the obvious but Fox was right that CSS was not a strong enough copy protection system. No big surprise than that they were worried about AACS as well. Heck, I would point out that there are people in this post talking about pirating Fox DVDs.

Yet they will shun a format that may become the new standard in HT because of their paranoia.Universal may be doing the same thing but I don't see anyone talking about pirating their movies.

So, to answer the original question, not ONLY have I stopped buying Fox titles (along with all other SD DVD's), I have also been returning all my Fox DVD's that were unopened.I think that is a bit drastic but at least that is legal.

Bob Black

10-07-06, 08:36 PM

Just to point out the obvious but Fox was right that CSS was not a strong enough copy protection system. No big surprise than that they were worried about AACS as well. Heck, I would point out that there are people in this post talking about pirating Fox DVDs.

Excuse me for not sympathizing with Fox for their concerns. The movie studios & the music industry have been ripping off consumers for decades with their price gouging tactics (CD's for $18.99, $40 for DVD's, etc.). I'm not anti-capitalistic mind you, but I have a real problem empathizing with multi-billion $ corporations that look the proverbial "gift-horse in the mouth" - throw their nose up at a cash cow format like DVD because of their paranoia over the tiny % that might seek to pirate copyrighted material. I've collected over 550 LD's, 1,700 DVD's and have already amassed 60 HD-DVD's - I've opened my wallet many, many times for these studios, very often on the same rehashed titles.

Why can other studios like Warner Brothers freely release their films on these new formats without such fears? If Fox followed their lead with competitive pricing and less paranoia, piracy of their titles would go down. I gave the clear example of Warner releasing "The Matrix" on DVD in 1999 at a $24.98 MSRP which quickly became the top-selling DVD of all time. It shipped 1.5 million copies in a 2-week span - unheard of figures at that time - while Fox CEO Bill Mechanic ridiculed the move. And Mechanic feared the DVD industry would cannibalize the tape rental industry, so he backed DIVX and shunned DVD until the bitter end. Warner actually had inspirations of DVD's selling under $10 at supermarkets and gas stations - funny how a company run by forward-thinking visionaries can operate.

Universal may be doing the same thing but I don't see anyone talking about pirating their movies.

Well, since BD has 3 major exclusives at the moment, I don't think you'll find too much bashing of Universal for taking the opposite stance. Ideally, all studios should be supporting BOTH formats. But since the playing field is hardly equal at this point, I'm glad that Universal is exclusive. After all, the consumers are choosing HD-DVD by a ratio of about 7:1, so political nonsense between the studios should not be allowed to be the deciding factor. Imagine the disparity in sales if HD-DVD had 100% studio support and BD needed to be successful based solely on price & performance! The game would have been called months ago! :rolleyes:

I think that is a bit drastic but at least that is legal.

Not drastic at all. Believe me, I was buying DVD's at a ridiculous rate and had collected a great # of titles that were hardly 4-star films. I'd been keeping most sealed for the past year in anticipation of HD. Now they're all fair game. ;)

oliverjg

10-07-06, 08:41 PM

The Samsung is on ebay brand new for $475 right now and deals way less than $1000 have been available. Not saying people should buy it, but that is their option. EDIT: Somebody who ordered one 2 days ago is getting concerned that the $475 auction isn't legit. There are others for under $600.

As far as boycotting, for people who are really only getting HD, passing up on Fox DVDs isn't boycotting them. :)

If more deals like that Samsung continue to show up and Fox does a good job encoding their titles, it will be interesting to see how many people here end up in the same boat as many of us who want access to all the best HD. Owning players for both. I personally don't want to miss out on "Kingdom of Heaven", just like I didn't want to miss out on some titles out on HD DVD.

--Darin

i already have a very good high def disk player (a1). i woud rather spend the $600 to buy more disks. if fox releases their movies on hddvd i will have no problem giving a good part of that money to them. i think they are stupid to prefer that i give the money to samsung (which ain't gonna happen anyway) or universal.

David Susilo

10-07-06, 09:15 PM

Why would you expect Blu Ray to offer increased quality over something that is already transparent to the master?

Because the BD camp keeps saying that BD WILL LOOK BETTER than HD-DVD... which is untrue. BD is no better than HD-DVD, just a lot more expensive.

The Surfer Dude

10-07-06, 09:18 PM

Because the BD camp keeps saying that BD WILL LOOK BETTER than HD-DVD... which is untrue. BD is no better than HD-DVD, just a lot more expensive.

Technically, it can.

A 54 MB/s transfer rate is higher than a 36 MB/s transfer rate.

Why is BD "no better than HD DVD"?

Is Playstation 3 "a lot more expensive" than an HD-A1 or HD-A2 for that matter?

MSmith83

10-07-06, 09:20 PM

Guys,

This isn't about BD's capabilities vs. HD DVD's capabilities, but rather why Fox sucks. :)

David Susilo

10-07-06, 09:21 PM

forget about "technically", what is the reality? I'm sick and tired of the "promises" and "potential" of BD.

Also comparing PS3 to HD-A1? What a joke. One is a gaming machine and the other is a standalone unit. Oh yeah, that's right, the PS3 is "potentially" a great BD player right?

Like I keep saying, BD is a promised format. Promise this, promise that, delivers nothing. 'Nuff said.

David Susilo

10-07-06, 09:24 PM

Guys,

This isn't about BD's capabilities vs. HD DVD's capabilities, but rather why Fox sucks. :)

Sorry :p to get back on track on "why Fox sucks" :D

the answer is because Fox is only backing "The Promised Format" instead of staying in reality with a format that so far outsells BD more than 700%. The logic is beyond me (and many other members too). :eek:

I thought companies are into making money. :confused:

The Surfer Dude

10-07-06, 09:25 PM

Sorry :p to get back on track on "why Fox sucks" :D

the answer is because Fox is only backing "The Promised Format" instead of staying in reality with a format that so far outsells BD more than 700%. The logic is beyond me (and many other members too). :eek:

I thought companies are into making money. :confused:

The "reality" of it is that Playstation 3 is about to put 2 million Blu Ray players in people's homes by the end of 2006.

That and BD+ are the only 2 things FOX sees, period.

David Susilo

10-07-06, 09:27 PM

The "reality" of it is that Playstation 3 is about to put 2 million Blu Ray players on the map by the end of 2006.

That and BD+ are the only 2 things FOX sees, period.

ahhh, yes... the PROMISE of the POTENTIAL of 2 million additional movie buyers. :rolleyes:

sounds like Bluray to me! :D

The Surfer Dude

10-07-06, 09:27 PM

ahhh, yes... the PROMISE of the POTENTIAL of 2 million additional buyers. :rolleyes:

sounds like Bluray to me! :D

You're kidding yourself if you don't think Playstation 3 will sell out 2 million units by the end of 2006.

2 million Playstation 3s in people's homes = 2 million Blu Ray players in people's homes.

Microsoft's Peter Moore has gone on record stating 90% of XBOX 360's early adopters had HDTVs. You should give the same benefit of the doubt to Playstation 3. I'm sure those people will be interested in High Def movies, since they already have a High Def movie player in their new Playstation 3.

End of story.

David Susilo

10-07-06, 09:32 PM

The Surfer Dude

10-07-06, 09:47 PM

hmmm, typical BD fanboy, absolutely great in creating twists. At least wait until I'm not around if you want to twist my post.

Did I ever mentioned that PS3 won't sell 2 million units? I said, and I quote "the PROMISE of the POTENTIAL of 2 million additional (movie) buyers." NEVER I said "the promise of the potential of 2 million sales".

You think ALL 2 million PS3 owner will suddenly buy Fox BD at $40 (MSRP)? I don't think so.

last but not least, the story doesn't end until it ends. Do you work for Fox? because you sound like Fox exec who said that there is no format war.

I don't think any Blu Ray title is worthy of selling 2 million discs. I don't think any HD DVD title out right now is worthy of that, either.

I'm not twisting anything, I'm just telling you facts.

2 million Playstation 3s in people's homes = 2 million Blu Ray Disc players in people's homes

Peter Moore said that 90% of all XBOX 360 early adopters had HDTVs. It's only fair to give Sony the benefit of the doubt and assume the same. 90% of early XBOX 360 owners had HDTVs, and that console didn't even have a next gen optical drive in it.

It's easy to see where FOX would get the idea to bet big with Playstation 3. Even Sony's competitor is indirectly telling FOX that the Playstation 3 has a huge, and most importantly REAL potential to appeal to a massive HDTV owning community.

Richard Paul

10-07-06, 09:48 PM

Excuse me for not sympathizing with Fox for their concerns.I don't expect you to and I am just pointing out that fear of piracy does make a bit of sense after CSS got broken so quickly.

Why can other studios like Warner Brothers freely release their films on these new formats without such fears?Because different studios have different concerns when it comes to video formats? For instance do you know that Time Warner was one of the main proponents for ICT being included in AACS while Fox was one of the main opponents against it?

Well, since BD has 3 major exclusives at the moment, I don't think you'll find too much bashing of Universal for taking the opposite stance.True.

After all, the consumers are choosing HD-DVD by a ratio of about 7:1, so political nonsense between the studios should not be allowed to be the deciding factor.So if that changes would you think that Universal should release on Blu-ray?

Also comparing PS3 to HD-A1? What a joke.Agreed, the PS3 will probably be better, can decode Dolby TrueHD at up to 7.1 channels, and has an HDMI 1.3 output. It would be more logical to compare the PS3 to the HD-XA2.

David Susilo

10-07-06, 09:51 PM

Agreed, the PS3 will probably be better, can decode Dolby TrueHD at up to 7.1 channels, and has an HDMI 1.3 output. It would be more logical to compare the PS3 to the HD-XA2.

here's that keyword again.

The Surfer Dude

10-07-06, 09:55 PM

here's that keyword again.

Playstation 3 was supposed to not be able to read dual layer discs
DL 50GB Blu Ray discs were never supposed to materialize
Blu Ray Discs were not going to use anything besides MPEG 2
Yields on DL Blu Ray discs were supposed to be <30%
Blu Ray has worse image quality than HD DVD
Blu Ray is twice as expensive as HD DVD

Yes, I've heard all of the misinformation and FUD surrounding Blu Ray's potential, David Susilo. I think we all have.

David Susilo

10-07-06, 09:57 PM

again with the twisting of my posts. tsk tsk tsk.

Damnationdoormat

10-07-06, 09:59 PM

I refuse to buy Fox/Sony DVDs, but I will rent them. If I want the movie bad enough, I'll get a blank DVD-R and...you know.
Yeah, the last Fox DVD I bought was X2 which I bought sealed at a flea market for $8 a year ago. I hear X-Men 3 has a terrible transfer, so I'll skip, though I really don't care for the series...except Part 2. :p

If any Sony or Fox DVD does come out that I want, the flea market is it. Buying probably stolen copies of Fox and Sony DVDs is perfectly fine in my book. :D

The Surfer Dude

10-07-06, 10:04 PM

again with the twisting of my posts. tsk tsk tsk.

"
promise this,
promise that,
delivers none. "

Ummmm...

Blu Ray Disc titles encoded with next gen video codecs have been on sale for a while now.
Uncompressed audio tracks have been included in films for a while now.
50 GB Blu Ray Discs are materializing this Tuesday.
On November 17th, the cheapest Blu Ray player is $499.

I think they're about to deliver in spades.

Shouldn't you be blaming studios for not releasing any content that uses Blu Ray's bandwidth advantage over HD DVD, not the format itself?

WayneL

10-07-06, 10:23 PM

Richard Paul

10-07-06, 10:25 PM

here's that keyword again.It will be a few more weeks before we will know how the PS3 does as a Blu-ray player.

trgraphics

10-07-06, 10:26 PM

You're kidding yourself if you don't think Playstation 3 will sell out 2 million units by the end of 2006.

2 million Playstation 3s in people's homes = 2 million Blu Ray players in people's homes.

Microsoft's Peter Moore has gone on record stating 90% of XBOX 360's early adopters had HDTVs. You should give the same benefit of the doubt to Playstation 3. I'm sure those people will be interested in High Def movies, since they already have a High Def movie player in their new Playstation 3.

End of story.

So your saying that there are 90 million HD tv's just waiting for the PS3. Sony claims they have sold over 100 million PS2's and your saying 90% have HD sets. You live in a fantasy world my friend. One that has been sold to you by Sony.

This is the biggest load of crap I have ever heard, "dude".

Richard Paul

10-07-06, 10:36 PM

So your saying that there are 90 million HD tv's just waiting for the PS3. Sony claims they have sold over 100 million PS2's and your saying 90% have HD sets.I think you may be a bit confused about what he said. The idea is that most people who buy the PS3 at first will have an HDTV. Not exactly unexpected and that is what happened with the initial Xbox 360 buyers. Also it will take years for the PS3 to sell 100 million units and during those years more people will be buying HDTVs. The only game console company that doesn't believe that HDTVs will become common over the next few years is Nintendo.

oliverjg

10-07-06, 10:50 PM

Fox is missing out the HD market, apparently because of BD+. The irony is that there is a good chance that HD will win the format war, then Fox will have missed a lot of revenue for no good reason. HD will not suddenly support BD+. Sony has more than movie sale money involved, but Fox?

In any case, they really believe they will lose more to HD piracy than they will gain from sales? Even if it can be hacked, study shows pirates wouldn't have bought it anyway. Lousy business sense.

if fox were to takeover walmart i guess walmart would close 90% of their stores and post armed guards at the remaining 10% to prevent shoplifting. then they can, claim the products are better, raise all the prices and call the stores blu-mart. :eek:

Bob Black

10-07-06, 11:06 PM

Playstation 3 was supposed to not be able to read dual layer discs.

Never heard that one, although I think Bill Hunt's observations caused a bit of concern.

DL 50GB Blu Ray discs were never supposed to materialize.

Actually, 50 GB discs were SUPPOSED to materialize in the summer - until they were delayed again and again and again. In reality, they should have been the standard for the format, since it makes claims of "beyond high definition" and "more capacity than HD-DVD" yet hasn't delivered on either! A half-dozen titles on dual-layered discs by the end of the year is hardly a reason for excitement.

Blu Ray Discs were not going to use anything besides MPEG 2.

Never heard that one either. Although Sony's decision to release ANY discs encoded in MPEG2 was stupid from the start, and the majority of the BD releases on the market have obviously suffered from their decisions.

Yields on DL Blu Ray discs were supposed to be <30%.

I haven't seen any actual yield rates on BD or BD50, so any numbers in this area are speculative at best. I have heard that Sony has been subsidizing disc manufacturing, however.

Blu Ray has worse image quality than HD DVD.

So far, according to all review sites, that seems accurate.

Blu Ray is twice as expensive as HD DVD.

Again, a $500 A1 and a $1000 Samsung on the market. Yeah, can't argue with that one.

The Surfer Dude

10-07-06, 11:12 PM

suprmallet

10-07-06, 11:17 PM

Surfer Dude, do you think any of the arguments you're making are new? There are two forums here for you. They're called Blu-ray Hardware and Blu-ray Software.

The Surfer Dude

10-07-06, 11:18 PM

Surfer Dude, do you think any of the arguments you're making are new? There are two forums here for you. They're called Blu-ray Hardware and Blu-ray Software.

FOX acts like HD DVD and its fans do not exist. Perhaps a thread about FOX should have been put in the Blu Ray Hardware or Software section as well?

I'm honestly just not interested in seeing so much FUD and misinformation being thrown around, that's all.

suprmallet

10-07-06, 11:23 PM

Again, your arguments are not new. In the end, the proof is in the pudding. HD DVD releases have had consistently higher quality than BD releases, and they're selling better. These are facts not up for debate. You can argue till your face is blue (pun intended) that BD is the better format, but in the end, BD has to prove it to us. You can't do it for them.

The Surfer Dude

10-07-06, 11:25 PM

suprmallet

10-07-06, 11:26 PM

The Surfer Dude

10-07-06, 11:29 PM

The Surfer Dude

10-07-06, 11:30 PM

It's also funny that you say how you "won't watch your movies on a video game console"

As far as I know, no video game console has ever attempted to go to the lengths Playstation 3 is as a movie player.

suprmallet

10-07-06, 11:32 PM

No, you're missing MY point.

HD DVD has all the quality at half the price.

BD has had utterly inconsistent quality at twice the price, and not all of their features are even working yet. So again, I ask, what is the incentive for me to buy into BD? I have said on more than one occasion that should the BD companies get their act together in hardware, software, and price, I would buy a player and get some good looking discs. Right now none of my criteria have been met by BD.

And I have other reasons for not buying a PS3 to play movies. First being that I don't want the gaming companies to think that $600 for a console is acceptable, because it's not. $400 for the 360 was pushing it. Second, I have on interest in any PS3 exclusives except for Lair, FFXIII, and MGS4. And none of those are launch titles. Third, I'll be spending all my time playing the Wii.

paulstachniak

10-07-06, 11:33 PM

Meh, Fox hasn't released anything I've cared about in a while - which was Arrested Development Season 3, and before then it was Season Two.

Robert D

10-07-06, 11:34 PM

Why would I buy Warner's releases on BD when I already have them on HD DVD, and they're releasing stuff on HD DVD that they are currently not releasing on BD, including the best looking HD material out there right now in the form of Batman Begins?

And even if for some insane reason I decided I wanted both HD DVD and BD editions of WB's films, I would still have to buy a player that's $1,000 or more. No, I won't buy the PS3 (see my sig), and I won't buy a half-functional player like the Samsung. I'm going to wait for a player that actually does everything BD has said they can do, which won't be until at least G2. But all the upcoming standalone BD players are actually going to cost MORE than the Samsung. So where's the incentive?

I agree with that. Also with BD's uncompressed audio or lack of DD+ or TrueHD decoding the audio is eating up bits so the end result is either the picture suffers or they end up with a disc void of extras. Now if the studios would commit to using BD50 for all releases from now on I may have an interest when the players cost $500 or less.

The Surfer Dude

10-07-06, 11:35 PM

No, you're missing MY point.

HD DVD has all the quality at half the price.

BD has had utterly inconsistent quality at twice the price, and not all of their features are even working yet. So again, I ask, what is the incentive for me to buy into BD? I have said on more than one occasion that should the BD companies get their act together in hardware, software, and price, I would buy a player and get some good looking discs. Right now none of my criteria have been met by BD.

BD doesn't have utterly inconsistent quality, Sony Pictures and Lion's Gate releases have had inconsistent quality. Once again, stop confusing releases with the media format itself. Those MPEG 2 encoded releases wouldn't have looked any better on an HD DVD disc.

And on November 17th, Sony is releasing a 1080p capable Blu Ray player at $499. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as HD DVD is concerned, isn't the HD-AX2, priced at $999 the only HD DVD player capable of 1080p output?

suprmallet

10-07-06, 11:41 PM

BD doesn't have utterly inconsistent quality, Sony Pictures and Lion's Gate releases have had inconsistent quality. Once again, stop confusing releases with the media format itself. Those MPEG 2 encoded releases wouldn't have looked any better on an HD DVD disc.

You're arguing semantics. BD has more problems than inconsistent PQ. For example, their utter inability to get BD50 working on a mass scale is a huge thorn in their side. And almost every player has been delayed by months. Those kind of things tell me something is wrong with the actual format right now.

And on November 17th, Sony is releasing a 1080p capable Blu Ray player at $499. Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as HD DVD is concerned, isn't the HD-AX2, priced at $999 the only HD DVD player capable of 1080p output?

Did you just make a "Blu-ray is better because it does 1080p" argument? I don't think even Sony is using that line anymore. For your information, the HD DVD add-on for the 360 is $200 and can do 1080p. Even if a player can't do 1080p, almost all 1080p displays deinterlace a 1080i signal anyway, which gives you...1080p! 1080p doesn't even mean anything to me, because I have a 1080i TV. If I had a 1080p TV, it would deinterlace the 1080i signal.

I think you should go back and read some threads from June, July, and August before coming in here. It's clear you're using Sony's old marketing sheets.

Edit: Please take note that I think BD has the ability to be a viable format, but as I said, they have to get their act together. No poster on a message board is going to convince me they're doing that. Better software and better cheaper hardware will convince me of that.

tsb

10-07-06, 11:42 PM

Gary - for someone who was very pro HD-DVD and made many negative comments about BD it sounds like you've gone neutral. I would too but comments from guys like The Bland and Mr. Hanky have kept me on the sidelines as far as BR is concerned.

Cheers,

Grant

First, why let comments on a message board control your life? Seems pretty backwards to me.

Second, The Bland clearly supports both formats but feels that the marketing muscle and CE/studio support BD holds will eventually lead to HD DVDs demise. Many others share that same view.

Third, although Gary and I had heated discussions about BD when he was more negative towards the format we all knew he'd change his tune. Gary is a PQ/AQ fanatic and a fan of HD in general regardless of the source.

Fourth, boycotting a studio only has one loser, the person depriving themselves of great HD content due to some fanboyish delusions.

As the signature says...........

The Surfer Dude

10-07-06, 11:46 PM

Did you just make a "Blu-ray is better because it does 1080p" argument? I don't think even Sony is using that line anymore. For your information, the HD DVD add-on for the 360 is $200 and can do 1080p. Even if a player can't do 1080p, almost all 1080p displays deinterlace a 1080i signal anyway, which gives you...1080p! 1080p doesn't even mean anything to me, because I have a 1080i TV. If I had a 1080p TV, it would deinterlace the 1080i signal.

I think you should go back and read some threads from June, July, and August before coming in here. It's clear you're using Sony's old marketing sheets.

No, I didn't make that argument.

I figured when people are talking about HD DVD costing half of Blu Ray they were talking about price. Therefore, it'd be fair to compare a $499 Blu Ray player capable of outputting 1080p to a HD DVD player capable of outputting 1080p, no? It's not fair because it basically cancels out the "HD DVD is half of the cost of Blu Ray argument".

XBOX 360 HD DVD player can't do 1080p, btw. It lacks HDMI, which is actually a key component to displaying 1080p content with the AACS.

Also, you can't rely on a display to properly deinterlace 1080p, many do not do it correctly, and what are you going to do when 30 FPS video needs to be deinterlaced?

suprmallet

10-07-06, 11:49 PM

The 360 gets around AACS by using VGA. Wrong again, dude.

And, to me, 1080p is not worth an extra $500. That's not added value, that's price gouging over a marketing point. Especially when I don't even own a 1080p TV.

Funny how you ignored all my other points. And the points you do argue you can't even argue correctly. Please just go to the BD forum. This isn't even fair to you anymore.

The Surfer Dude

10-07-06, 11:58 PM

Please suprmallet, do not be so hypocritical.

Why did you call me out on ignoring your points when you ignored almost all of mine?

1. Is it not fair to compare a $499 1080p equipped player to a $999 1080p equipped player?
2. Is 1080p really worth an extra $500? Where can I get HD DVD players for $0 since you must pay an extra $500 for a high def media player 1080p support?
3. Has any other video game console tried as hard as the Playstation 3 to be a movie player?
4. Why are currently existing Warner VC-1 Blu Ray encodes that are indistinguishable from the HD DVD versions not enough "proof" that Blu Ray is capable of the same "transparent to the master" picture quality that HD DVD is?

WayneL

10-08-06, 12:02 AM

SD you're not contributing to the topic. Please stop

suprmallet

10-08-06, 12:04 AM

ILJG

10-08-06, 12:08 AM

Please suprmallet, do not be so hypocritical.

3. Has any other video game console tried as hard as the Playstation 3 to be a movie player?

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c111/mic-el/smileys/rofl.gif

Dude, you're killing me...

rdjam

10-08-06, 12:08 AM

Blu-ray has more space than HD-DVD discs, and ultimately, that's what matters to me. Therefore I support Blu-ray...
With full respect - I would put that a little more in context - Bluray "can" have more space, theoretically.

BUT, in real life, 99.95 percent of the Bluray titles are only 25 Gig SLs - whereas most of the HD DVD releases are 30 Gigs - so all of this BR has more space talk, in my view, doesn't quite reconcile to reality.

If every single Bluray release was on a DL 50Gig disc, then I would accept that statement, but this is clearly not the case..

But that's like choosing a house just because it's bigger without looking at the price, ignoring the fact that house is not completely built, the plumbing backed up, etc etc.
Exactly - an even better analogy would be buying a house that's smaller, just because the architect says he has some really nice drawings of how it COULD be bigger when you add on later.

The Surfer Dude

10-08-06, 12:09 AM

Wow, talk about ignoring posts:

1. The 360 add-on does 1080p through VGA. That DOES satisfy AACS requirements.
2. You only have to pay $200 for a player with 1080p support.
3. No, because most console makers understood the purpose of a gaming machine is to PLAY VIDEO GAMES. Maybe if Sony understood that, the PS3 could have been $400 and Sony's standalone BD player would be out by now, instead of being delayed AGAIN.
4. No one is arguing that BD is capable of looking as good as HD DVD. What we're saying is that to date, HD DVD releases have been stronger than BD releases. The WB VC-1 releases are so far identical. But you can get all of those releases and more on HD DVD, so how is that at all a selling point for BD? It's not.

1. OK. So how exactly are you going to transfer TruHD 7.1 signals over VGA + Optical out?
2. You're not factoring in the cost of an XBOX 360. That $200 price only is applicable to people that have already purchased XBOX 360s, which is at a minimum, $299. You can't factor in the entire price of the Playstation 3 and then JUST the price of the HD DVD ---ADD ON--- to compare it with.
3. You're comparing previous consoles with different marketplace intentions to the Playstation 3. Previous consoles weren't meant to be a high quality media player in addition to game machine. The entire "But, but, but, all previous video game consoles were just made to play video games" argument is moot. The Playstation 3 simply isn't all previous video game consoles.
4. You can't get all of those releases on Blu Ray because Warner started releasing movies on HD DVD 3 months before Blu Ray. Currently there is only a 15 title gap between Blu Ray and HD DVD releases. That's pretty small for starting out with a 3 month lead.

You're just so incredibly jaded. I own an HD-A1, man. I have both. But geez, there's no use in pretending certain truths aren't real.

tsb

10-08-06, 12:10 AM

txfilmguy

10-08-06, 12:15 AM

rdjam

10-08-06, 12:16 AM

Signing petitions/emailing them wouldn't help much either I think, as I believe they're way too stubborn to let a bunch of videophiles dictate their distribution policies..
God ForBID they should have to listen to their customers :D :p

Folks - it seems to me that when the BillBoard numbers start being published and available to the public, everyone will be able to see what only the studios see now.

The studios will realize where the money really is - and even Fox will have to wonder if they shouldn't at least keep a toe in the other camp in case...

Warner cut their projections for hi def sales in half yesterday... WHY? Because the Bluray sales were a fraction of what they expected. Now they were polite and stated that this was because the players didn't come out, but we all no it had a little but to do with the quality of the software offerings too.

What Warner did yesterday was a very clear signal to the other studios and the industry at large that they do not expect Bluray to make any sudden comeback - that's a pretty big statement from someone who - even tho they support both formats - still had expected Bluray to do better.

tsb

10-08-06, 12:23 AM

I think you may be a bit confused about what he said. The idea is that most people who buy the PS3 at first will have an HDTV. Not exactly unexpected and that is what happened with the initial Xbox 360 buyers. Also it will take years for the PS3 to sell 100 million units and during those years more people will be buying HDTVs. The only game console company that doesn't believe that HDTVs will become common over the next few years is Nintendo.

I don't believe that. I think Nintendo knows HDTVs will become the norm, but they chose innovative gameplay and price over graphics. The PS3 took the middle approach by developing the SixAxis and the 360 took the graphics only approach. Nintendo and Sony will rule this round and Nintendo will probably make the most net profit unless the PS3 proves to be a very popular BD player and has a very high attach rate.

txfilmguy

10-08-06, 12:25 AM

Please just go to the BD forum. This isn't even fair to you anymore.
This Thread is about boycotting Fox because they support Blu-ray. As such, it is bait for an HD DVD/Blu-ray shouting match. If you start a thread like this or post to it, you are just as annoying as the person arguing the other point, so you have no room to complain or get personal.

suprmallet

10-08-06, 12:29 AM

If you start a thread like this or post to it, you are just as annoying as the person arguing the other point, so you have no room to complain or get personal.

Does that include you as well, since you're posting to it?

txfilmguy

10-08-06, 12:32 AM

Yes. Sorry, I have a low tollerance for people who get that bent out of shape over somebody's format preference. I'm going away now.

tsb

10-08-06, 12:34 AM

Unless Fox starts clubbing seals for their fur or spilling hundreds of thousands of gallons of crude oil into the ocean, I see no reason to boycot them. Content is content. The studio is incidental. Besides, their Blu-rays are reported to look phenomenal.

Well said, although in some locations the seal population is more than sufficient for some controlled hunting.

rdjam

10-08-06, 12:44 AM

Didn't I read somewhere here that as a byproduct of making a Vc-1 transfer of a movie both Disney and Fox are , in fact , creating a HD-DVD first ?
No, that was just a rumor and it was recently disproved in the Industry Insiders thread.
Richard, hold on a minute there. No, it was not a rumour, it is fact.And it was not disproven - all that happened is that someone jumped up and down in 4 threads proclaiming it easn't so.

It is a fact, that right now the only way to get a VC1 encode for Bluray, is to encode VC1 to an HD DVD stream first, then run Microsoft's conversion tool on it, which changes the packaging into a Bluray stream.

This is fact and was confirmed by Amir - don't take this correction the wrong way, but it is not great when misinformation is posted here.

And to pre-empt a discussion on this, I respectfully submit the relevant quotes and links:

Now, am I correct in my recollection that the only way any one can curently encode VC1 for Bluray is to do what Warner is doing - that is, to encode VC1 for HD DVD and then use the MS conversion tool to repackage the HD DVD encode for Bluray?

Is this correct? http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8539541&&#post8539541

Currently yes. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8539753&&#post8539753

1) Is the reformatting lossless from the HD-DVD master to BD? http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8545928&&#post8545928

Yes, http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8546040&&#post8546040

rdjam

10-08-06, 01:08 AM

suprmallet, I do not get it?

Has Warner's VC-1 Blu Ray releases not proved to you that Blu Ray is fully capable of matching HD DVD's picture quality?

What more "proof" do you need than currently existing Blu Ray titles that have quality indistinguishable from their HD DVD counterparts?
Hi SD - I think it would be prudent for me to point out that Warner is currently the only studio currently converting their HD DVD VC1 encodes for Bluray and releasing VC1 movies on Buray discs.

Since no other VC1 releases are on Bluray, then can you blame anyone for sticking with HD DVD?

Yes, Warner is now releasing VC1 on Bluray but no other studio is - so for you to claim that all other Bluray releases are matching HD DVD is not a very practical claim to make... they don't in real life...

Respect...

HomerJay

10-08-06, 01:16 AM

I think you missed the point, suprmallet.

The point was that Blu Ray doesn't have inferior image quality to HD DVD, not that you should run out and rebuy them on Blu Ray.

And do you honestly believe Batman Begins won't be out on Blu Ray?

I'd be willing to bet huge money that Warner will confirm in the next few weeks Batman Begins on Blu Ray right around the time Playstation 3 hits.

I'd be more willing to bet that Warner will be pulling all Blu-ray support due to horrible sales in comparison to HD DVD. After all, everyone involved in this fiaso is out to make a buck. Maybe that will be their announcement around PS3 time... ;)

The Surfer Dude

10-08-06, 01:16 AM

Hi SD - I think it would be prudent for me to point out that Warner is currently the only studio currently converting their HD DVD VC1 encodes for Bluray and releasing VC1 movies on Buray discs.

Since no other VC1 releases are on Bluray, then can you blame anyone for sticking with HD DVD?

Yes, Warner is now releasing VC1 on Bluray but no other studio is - so for you to claim that all other Bluray releases are matching HD DVD is not a very practical claim to make... they don't in real life...

Respect...

Well what's wrong with Disney's H.264 releases? Or how about the studio which this thread was made for, Fox, which has been reported to have nothing but simply fantastic Blu Ray titles?

Sony and Lion's Gate do NOT equal Blu Ray.

DigitalfreakNYC

10-08-06, 01:19 AM

Well what's wrong with Disney's H.264 releases? Or how about the studio which this thread was made for, Fox, which has been reported to have nothing but simply fantastic Blu Ray titles?

Disney's releases apparently haven't been all that hot and Fox hasn't released a damn thing yet.

The Surfer Dude

10-08-06, 01:22 AM

Aren't The Great Raid and 8 Below said to have great picture quality?

At least Paramount's new releases seem good, no?

Paramount's Tomb Raider (Blu Ray)
http://www.docdvd.com/bluray_reviews_14312.htm

"As picture quality goes, this blu-ray disc is a slight improvement over the hd-dvd release. It is presented in 2.35:1 widescreen and encoded at 1080p. The colors are strong and smooth, suffering from no noise problems. Also, there was minimal grain, a bit less than on the hd-dvd. There was a great sense of three dimensionality to the image as well. "

Sounds good to me!

tsb

10-08-06, 01:32 AM

It's sad that certain format fanboys continue to equate a few subpar releases with an entire format.

As the signature says........

rdjam

10-08-06, 01:48 AM

OK - this debate has called for a POLL...

So here it is http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=733559

How do we really feel about buying more movies on DVD or Bluray disc from Studios that boycott HD DVD?

It is a non-public poll - so no one will hold your vote against you...

DigitalfreakNYC

10-08-06, 02:08 AM

Colmino

10-08-06, 03:24 AM

How about a RELIABLE reviewer saying that? Most likely they're the exact same encodes for both formats.
Possibly. Of course, the Blu-Ray disc would have five GB - some 17% - less room to work with. That's a big chunk, and would likely merit a reencode. I'd be interested in hearing whether or not this disc uses VC-1. If it's MPEG2 like normal, then I can safely move "www.docdvd.com" to my effective ignore list. One does not attempt to suggest that less data and a thrice-inferior codec results in a cleaner movie, regardless of any possible master differences.

As for the boycott item.. It's standard practice for me. I won't buy Fox. I won't buy Sony. I'm undecided on Disney (Disney Treasures volumes are frequent must-haves). Of course it can hardly hurt this conviction to realize that any Blu-Ray movies coming out of these studios in the near future are going to be precisely as crippled as have been every single Blu-Ray movie thus-far released.

Gary Murrell

10-08-06, 03:47 AM

Gary - for someone who was very pro HD-DVD and made many negative comments about BD it sounds like you've gone neutral. I would too but comments from guys like The Bland and Mr. Hanky have kept me on the sidelines as far as BR is concerned.

Cheers,

Grant

yep that about sums me up, I can't sit idle without checking out a entirely new HD format in my HT :D , my Samsung should be here this week :cool: , if things go well I will be the first to apologize about my past BR comments ;)

Fifth Element will be in my viewing along with Tears and a few demo disc's, I have seen the very good HBO Fifth Element showing, so lookout BR :)

I would have prolly never decided to try BR at this point if the Sammy's hadn't went down in price ALOT!

-Gary

stevenmh

10-08-06, 08:46 AM

I'm not a BR supporter, but I see no reason to specifically and broadly boycott Fox (or any other studio). Just like any other company, they sell a product. I decide whether I want it or not. If If they won't carry what I want and somebody else does, I just go across the street and buy it there instead. No need to take it personally.

I'm done buying SD-DVDs. I've already started selling off my existing library. I'm keeping the titles from BD-only studios for now. For the time being, if they don't want to release in HD-DVD, then they're missing out on my money. I'm OK with that if they are. I'll watch Fox titles from my existing SD-DVD library or rent from Netflix. If I want to see it bad enough, maybe that will constitute one of my 2-3 trips to the theater per year.

As for the future, I'm keeping an open mind. IMO there's no reason to buy into BD at this point. That may not always be the case. BD may turn out just fine and the formats may be destined to coexist. Maybe it will even 'win.' In the meantime, any studio that wants my money will put their movie library on HD-DVD, or offer some other product that I want. In Fox's case, we're not doing much business together right now, but it's not a 'boycott.' They just don't happen to have what I want right now.

chartwel

10-08-06, 09:35 AM

The funny thing is, most of you people are not boycotting anything......you simply *CANNOT* buy fox HD movies because they are not released on your format. boycotting them would be not buying their movies when, and more importantly, if they release on HD DVD.

as far as them only being a blu-ray supporter, somtimes you just have to choose. I, for one am supporting blu-ray because I do not want to have to upgrade in another 5-6 years, which is what I think I will have to do with HD DVD. Im sure some people will tell me my logic is wrong, but hey, to each his own.

DevoX

10-08-06, 09:58 AM

If any review site has said Blu Ray picture quality is worse than HD DVD, they are confused.

Why?

Because Blu Ray is an optical format that doesn't have a picture quality.

All I can say to that is...

LOL!

That's about as stupid a thing I've ever read on here. You're obviously a troll, my friend.

Folks... remember! Don't feed 'em! They exist everywhere.

SirDrexl

10-08-06, 10:06 AM

The funny thing is, most of you people are not boycotting anything......you simply *CANNOT* buy fox HD movies because they are not released on your format. boycotting them would be not buying their movies when, and more importantly, if they release on HD DVD.

Exactly. I have no desire for a PlayStation console (I don't like the controller and I'm not a three console guy), so I can't say I'm "boycotting" PS2/PS3 games because I wouldn't buy them anyway. It's not as if I "boycotted" GTA by not getting it on PS2, since I did get the Xbox versions.

As for not having to upgrade, one reason why I'm not getting into BD at this time is because I don't want to have to upgrade those early MPEG-2 releases to versions with better compression.

The Surfer Dude

10-08-06, 10:16 AM

All I can say to that is...

LOL!

That's about as stupid a thing I've ever read on here. You're obviously a troll, my friend.

Folks... remember! Don't feed 'em! They exist everywhere.

So you're trying to tell me that Blu Ray Disc isn't a media format and that the media format itself has a "picture quality"?

Please tell me what Blu Ray Disc is, if it is not a media format, because media formats thesmelves can not have picture qualities, the data, the movie contained on the format can.

Media formats have specs and codecs they support. HD DVD and Blu Ray Disc support the same codecs, with Blu Ray disc having a higher transfer rate, and more storage space. That's really all there is to it. Am I making up anything, or no?

DevoX

10-08-06, 10:21 AM

So you're trying to tell me that Blu Ray Disc isn't a media format and that the media format itself has a "picture quality"?

Oh for the love of... Okay, yeah -- I did fall into your semantical trap. Nevermind.

Graham Johnson

10-08-06, 10:21 AM

I have sorted my 600 plus SD DVD's into HD-DVD support and Bluray support.

I have bought 40 HD-DVD's in the last 2 months and sold all the SD dvd's that appear on the release list for HD DVD.

I havent bought an SD DVD for 6 months and will not buy any more. I would expect my SD DVD library to comprise of just Fox and Sony titles in 12 months.

Not buying BLURAY support companies SD DVD's is boycott enough.

I will not buy into bluray if there is any doubt the transfer is substandard which most are. How are we ever going to know how these disks are encoded before we buy them? If they are VC1 they may be great but it will be a gamble I will not take.

The Surfer Dude

10-08-06, 10:23 AM

DevoX, You specifically just said in response to,

Because Blu Ray is an optical format that doesn't have a picture quality.

that it was about as stupid a thing as I've ever read here

So please, I'd really appreciate you educating me.

Media formats thesmelves can not have picture qualities, the data, the movie contained on the format can.

Is this statement true or false?

Bob Black

10-08-06, 11:10 AM

Bob Black, I think you're a funny guy.

If any review site has said Blu Ray picture quality is worse than HD DVD, they are confused.

Why?

Because Blu Ray is an optical format that doesn't have a picture quality.

It is a medium that stores information, it doesn't have a picture quality. The data that is stored on that medium might, though. But as far as I know, they both can store the same data, so that's pretty much irrelevant, right? It should be.

As far as "quality" of the medium itself is concerned, 50 GB > 30 GB, and 54 MB/s > 36 MB/s.

Both media formats are capable of decoding the same codecs.

Please, stop confusing the sub par quality of releases by a couple of studios with the media format itself.

You should be blaming Sony Pictures and Lion's Gate, not Blu Ray Disc.

Whoa, where to start with this one?

You're telling me not to base the quality of a format on the only tangible thing it offers? Are you serious?

Sure, 50GB is greater than 30GB. However, there are NO 50 GB discs manufactured other than this week's "Click" which I still haven't seen reviewed. Is 25 GB greater than 30 GB? Is MPEG2 greater than VC1? We can only base the merits of these formats on what we have in front of us. Go tell someone else to blow $1000 on potential, because it certainly won't work with me.

Sony and LG releases have been very underwhelming according to every reviewer I've read. Warner has released the same titles, and more, on HD-DVD, along with more supplemental material and/or more advanced audio codecs. Disney releases have been reviewed as mediocre at best. So now we're all waiting for Fox to somehow "blow our minds" with their upcoming releases?

I love how BD fanboys gloat over the occasional Blu-Ray release that favorably compares to HD-DVD...as if the blatant cost disparity between the 2 formats is immaterial. It's ironic that the format that claimed "beyond high definition" has set the bar at HD-DVD quality! Wonder when they'll actually get there consistently. :rolleyes:

The Surfer Dude

10-08-06, 11:22 AM

Whoa, where to start with this one?

You're telling me not to base the quality of a format on the only tangible thing it offers? Are you serious?

Sure, 50GB is greater than 30GB. However, there are NO 50 GB discs manufactured other than this week's "Click" which I still haven't seen reviewed. Is 25 GB greater than 30 GB? Is MPEG2 greater than VC1? We can only base the merits of these formats on what we have in front of us. Go tell someone else to blow $1000 on potential, because it certainly won't work with me.

Sony and LG releases have been very underwhelming according to every reviewer I've read. Warner has released the same titles, and more, on HD-DVD, along with more supplemental material and/or more advanced audio codecs. Disney releases have been reviewed as mediocre at best. So now we're all waiting for Fox to somehow "blow our minds" with their upcoming releases?

I love how BD fanboys gloat over the occasional Blu-Ray release that favorably compares to HD-DVD...as if the blatant cost disparity between the 2 formats is immaterial. It's ironic that the format that claimed "beyond high definition" has set the bar at HD-DVD quality! Wonder when they'll actually get there consistently. :rolleyes:

So basically, your only hope in HD DVD succeeding is in Blu Ray failing to deliver what it promised?

BD50 discs are going to be moving in full force within the next couple of months, with almost a dozen titles being confirmed to use the Dual Layer 50 GB discs. H.264 releases have already materialized, and have NOT disappointed. FOX's H.264 titles are coming next month.

Once FOX starts releasing titles in H.264, you'll have Warner, Disney, and FOX ALL releasing titles using next gen codecs for great picture quality. Not too sure on what Paramount is doing, but the reviews of their Blu Ray releases seem to indicate the picture quality is definitely AT LEAST on par with the HD DVD releases. So that right there puts SONY and Lion's Gate's crap releases in the MINORITY on Blu Ray. Why are you judging the entire format based off of the crap released by 2 out of the 6 major studios that are supporting it? Sounds ridiculous.

HD DVD fanboys love to gloat about how their HD DVD titles are "transparent to the master", so how exactly can Blu Ray disc raise above the bar set at HD-DVD quality, if HD DVD quality is already 100% perfect to the master?

Sounds like some fishy logic going on, here.

I still stand by my statement.

Formats can't have picture qualities, the encoded movies on the formats can.

jfrlhobbs

10-08-06, 11:28 AM

Even if Blu-Ray matched the PQ of HD-DVD title for title, why would I want to pay double the cost for the player to receive the same PQ? Makes no since to me. :p

The Surfer Dude

10-08-06, 11:29 AM

Even if Blu-Ray matched the PQ of HD-DVD title for title, why would I want to pay double the cost for the player to receive the same PQ? Makes no since to me. :p

You don't have to.

You can purchase a Playstation 3 for $499.99, with 1080p support and HDMI 1.3.

tormond

10-08-06, 11:37 AM

You don't have to.

You can purchase a Playstation 3 for $499.99, with 1080p support and HDMI 1.3.

Ok where exactly can I go purchase this mythical PS3? If you can tell me where I will go today and plunk down $499 for this wonder of wonder. Oh and it STILL will cost me about $150 more than my HDDVD player did.

The Surfer Dude

10-08-06, 11:44 AM

tormond

10-08-06, 11:50 AM

1. Playstation 3 is mythical? No, it's being launched in the United States on November 17th.
2. The Toshiba HD-A1's MSRP is $499, same MSRP as the Playstation 3 20 GB model with HDMI
3. The Playstation 3, featurewise, is about on par with the $999 Toshiba HD-AX2.

I thought it was being launched with 4 Million units.. Oh wait that wasn't really true. Wasn't it being released this spring? Oh, sorry that wasn't true either. If you think you will be able to walk into a store and just pick up a PS3 on Nov 17th for $499 I have a bridge that is going cheap. For that matter on Dec 17th, Jan 17th, Feb 17th either unless this thing tanks horribly. At which point it is a pointless arguement as that will be the death of BD.

As for MSRP I didn't pay MSRP for my A1. As for features does it have analog output so I can hear the advanced audio that BD Isn't using? or maybe in this same mythical store that will have hundreds of PS3s in stock for $499 that I can just buy they will also have a HDMI 1.3 receiver that decodes all the advanced audio so I will be set there too. And I guess they are just gonna throw that in as well or do I have to buy even more gear to actually get what I pay for?

Back on topic (and this was my last post on the subject above) I think that boycotting Fox as a whole is almost impossible as who the heck knows who owns what anymoe. Heck if BD owners are boycotting Toshiba then they can't buy a PS3 either....

The Surfer Dude

10-08-06, 11:52 AM

If you think you will be able to walk into a store and just pick up a PS3 on Nov 17th for $499

You know why? Because Playstation 3 is going to sell out on day one.

400,000 Blu Ray players in people's homes in a single day.

Sounds like a massive success, to me.

stevenmh

10-08-06, 11:53 AM

how exactly can Blu Ray disc raise above the bar set at HD-DVD quality

I would recommend asking the companies claiming that BR is "beyond high definition." They should be able to provide an answer.

The Surfer Dude

10-08-06, 11:56 AM

I would recommend asking the companies claiming that BR is "beyond high definition." They should be able to provide an answer.

Blu Ray and HD DVD are both beyond many, if not all of the high definition cable channels I receive. Are you upset Toshiba didn't think of "Beyond High Definition" first? :rolleyes:

stevenmh

10-08-06, 12:02 PM

Blu Ray and HD DVD are both beyond many, if not all of the high definition cable channels I receive. Are you upset Toshiba didn't think of "Beyond High Definition" first? :rolleyes:

I'm not upset about anything. In fact, I'm enjoying my home theater immensely.

BTW, the slogan isn't "beyond high definition cable." Just because cable and satellite providers offer substandard PQ doesn't mean that either HD-DVD or BR are offering PQ that's above the standard set by HD specifications.

The Surfer Dude

10-08-06, 12:03 PM

I'm not upset about anything. In fact, I'm enjoying my home theater immensely.

BTW, the slogan isn't "beyond high definition cable." Just because cable and satellite providers offer substandard PQ doesn't mean that either HD-DVD or BR are offering PQ that's above the standard set by HD specifications.

Well, before Blu Ray and HD DVD, how do you think most people were watching High Definition on their TVs? :rolleyes:

Both Blu Ray and HD DVD sure beat the hell out of HBO HD.

stevenmh

10-08-06, 12:06 PM

You don't have to.

You can purchase a Playstation 3 for $499.99, with 1080p support and HDMI 1.3.

I may end up doing just that. However, I'm certainly not going to do it based on Sony's promises for the PS3. I'll wait and see how the hardware is reviewed. Then I'll wait and see if BR-only studios provide consistent PQ. But that's all in the future. I could be dead by then. HD-DVD is providing a solution RIGHT NOW, which is why I don't buy SD-DVDs anymore, which has the incidental effect of BR-only studios not getting any of my money right now. Which goes back to the original post.

stevenmh

10-08-06, 12:09 PM

Well, before Blu Ray and HD DVD, how do you think most people were watching High Definition on their TVs? :rolleyes:

Both Blu Ray and HD DVD sure beat the hell out of HBO HD.

I'll say it again, slowly, so you understand.

Neither.

HD-DVD.

Nor.

Blu-Ray.

Exceed.

The.

Specifications.

Of.

High Definition.

The fact that previous offerings did not MEET high definition specifications is irrelevant.

Bob Black

10-08-06, 12:15 PM

So basically, your only hope in HD DVD succeeding is in Blu Ray failing to deliver what it promised?

There are many reasons why HD-DVD will succeed. Price is currently half that of the competition and is having an impact based on sales. Quality of the product is another leading factor, since the vast majority of reviews have been much more favorable for HD-DVD hardware & software than the BD equivalent. Most people live in the real word, where they formulate buying decisions on the actual product rather than on some theoretical model that may or may not come to fruition. Another factor is name recognition. BD has more studio support, but has yet to match HD-DVD in quantity or quality of titles, or quality products.

BD50 discs are going to be moving in full force within the next couple of months, with almost a dozen titles being confirmed to use the Dual Layer 50 GB discs. H.264 releases have already materialized, and have NOT disappointed. FOX's H.264 titles are coming next month.

I have seen exactly 7 BD50 titles announced as of today - 3 from Sony, 3 from Fox and Superman Returns from Warner. Out of nearly 110 titles released or announced, that is a pathetic ratio. What makes anyone think they will suddenly become the norm for BD releases? I'd venture to guess they are merely shoveling a handful out to prove to Fox, Disney, and the world that they work. I see no evidence to show they will become the standard for the format. Unless you believe in blind faith. As for the H.264 releases, the Disney titles got shoddy reviews at best. Keep reaching.

DevoX

10-08-06, 12:26 PM

Man, I love raucus threads like these! :)

Before I begin, I should start by saying I've never really had a problem with fanboys of any format. However, the Sony fanboys are by far the worst. They've surpassed the Apple fanboys but have yet to really come close to the Sun fanboys.

Regardless of the state the floundering PS3 is in when it launches, it's predestined to be a doomed console, much like the Atari Jaguar. Its success hinges upon the ravenous fanboys, whose support has continuously been whittled away by scandal after scandal at Sony. From the fake pre-rendered videos pawned off as real-time game footage to the fact that Sony faces the looming prospect of bankruptcy should the PS3 sell not only too few units, but too many (a completely unenviable situation which Sony's devotees feel is a benefit, because it somehow lets them control the market while, outside of the Sony Reality Distortion Field, realists see it only as a way for Sony control exactly how quickly their ship gets sunk).

Right now, the only true supporters of the PS3 that are left are those who simply lack the humility to admit their own mistakes. It remains to be seen if this is going to be a boon for Sony as they cannot speculate if there is any geniune buying power in this loose knit group of "harangueteers".

Regarding Blu-Ray itself. At one point, the format had genuine promise -- but not anymore. Sony and its handful of studios with exclusivity have squandered all goodwill by releasing shoddily put together releases as quickly as possible in a last-ditch effort to thrust the beleaguered format into something even vaguely resembling a limelight.

When it's all said and done, there's only really one sentence to remember as your take-away from this post:

Sony can gild its turd, but it's still a turd.

AnthonyB

10-08-06, 12:31 PM

I just did a DVD Profiler graph and I saw 12 titles out of 200 that I have from Fox.. I was kinda suprised, but on thte same token pleasantly suprised that I don't have that much interest in Fox movies to buy them

marlai

10-08-06, 12:36 PM

Going back to the topic, after getting my Hd-a1 this week, and seeing how much HD is much better than SD, I have decided not to purchase any SD DVDs anymore, then sell my less treasured DVD titles, and concentrate the funds on HD DVD titles. Essentially, Fox wont be getting any money from me.

Mac11700

10-08-06, 12:37 PM

You know why? Because Playstation 3 is going to sell out on day one.

400,000 Blu Ray players in people's homes in a single day.

Sounds like a massive success, to me.

Dude....Whatever your smoking you better put it down and step uotside for some fresh air to clear your head... :eek:

400.000 in 1 day.... :D :D :D that my friend is luncacy...it ain't going to happen...sure...they will sell quite a few...of that I am sure...but...they won't sell out...not for $500+ with tax...

Hmmm...let's try another logic....Why in the hell would I stick a $500 game console in my HT?...Answer...I wouldn't...Now...if the kids want one for their game room...I wouldn't have a problem buying one for them...but...since they both love the x-box series...they don't really want one...Oh...and couple other things...just how many kids are going to buy one to watch movies on anyway...?...Not many I would hazzard a guess...it is after all a game box first and foremost...and the last thing...Just how receptive do you think Sony will be in resolving all the issues that will come up on these units...? Toshiba has been up-front and very timely responding to the issue's it has had in it's players...Try to get something repaired thru Sony...it's pathetic to say the least...been there...done that...and don't want to go thru it again...

Mac

The Surfer Dude

10-08-06, 12:38 PM

Dude....Whatever your smoking you better put it down and step uotside for some fresh air to clear your head... :eek:

400.000 in 1 day.... :D :D :D that my friend is luncacy...it ain't going to happen...sure...they will sell quite a few...of that I am sure...but...they won't sell out...not for $500+ with tax...

Hmmm...let's try another logic....Why in the hell would I stick a $500 game console in my HT?...Answer...I wouldn't...Now...if the kids want one for their game room...I wouldn't have a problem buying one for them...but...since they both love the x-box series...they don't really want one...Oh...and couple other things...just how many kids are going to buy one to watch movies on anyway...?...Not many I would hazzard a guess...it is after all a game box first and foremost...and the last thing...Just how receptive do you think Sony will be in resolving all the issues that will come up on these units...? Toshiba has been up-front and very timely responding to the issue's it has had in it's players...Try to get something repaired thru Sony...it's pathetic to say the least...been there...done that...and don't want to go thru it again...

Mac

Are you kidding me? You seriously don't think Playstation 3 is going to be a complete sell out? Perhaps you should put down whatever you're smoking. Everyone including the media and their own investors are getting on Sony's case for what is going to be a SHORTAGE at launch. Yes, people are certainly worried about camping out at stores because they know it'll be easy to get one. :rolleyes:

Mac11700

10-08-06, 12:57 PM

This is pure grade A comedy. Either that, or you guys get paid by Toshiba.

Nope...I don't work for Toshiba...but I durn sure like my XA-1KN...I've seen the BR players and seen how their displays looked...I'm not impressed at all...Much to do about nothing so far is the norm it would seem...even in the face of Sony not delivering on it's promises for them...It's a crying shame to see it happen...but...happen it has...The mere fact that according to some reports that Sony's future hinges on selling a game console to survive is the grade A tragic comedy... Here's a giant of the media world who cannot produce a viable stand alone player...Sad...so sad...

Are you kidding me? You seriously don't think Playstation 3 is going to be a complete sell out? Perhaps you should put down whatever you're smoking. Everyone including the media and their own investors are getting on Sony's case for what is going to be a SHORTAGE at launch. Yes, people are certainly worried about camping out at stores because they know it'll be easy to get one.

Actually no...I don't think it's going to be a sell out...not unless Sony restricts the number of units allocated...and as far as camping out to get one...Your living in the clouds...perhaps a few die hards..but...I would suspect before the ink is dry on the the sales recites...there will be units getting returned...Timing is everything in a new launch...and most parents are just beginning to worry about the upcoming Christmas shopping season...They won't have gotten thru with Thanksgiving yet...and plunking down this much cash for a toy...well..I don't see it happening...atleast not in the numbers you think it will...and if it does...then I will certainly stand corrected..

Mac

D-Nice

10-08-06, 01:00 PM

The Surfer Dude

10-08-06, 01:13 PM

The Surfer Dude,

Do you know the difference between 108024sf, 1080p24, 1080p30, 1080p60?

Do you know which one is encoded in both HD DVD and BD?

Only if you answered the first 2 correctly....is it possible to get what is encoded on HD DVD and BD in a 1080i flagged stream?

I await your answers.

Yes I know the difference between them. 1080p24, 1080p30, and 1080p60 all refer to the resolution they support and their respective frame rates. Blu Ray supports 1080p24sf for displays that can show content in unaltered 24 fps frame rate. I do not know whether HD DVD does, or does not. Perhaps you can fill me in.

HD DVD and BD FILMS are encoded in 1080p24.

You can get 1080p via 3:2 pulldown from 1080i, and only if your display can properly deinterlace the material. This doesn't work on 1080p30 or 1080p60 sources, though. Many TV shows are shot on video, not 24fps film.

Any other questions for me?

Mac11700

10-08-06, 01:29 PM

Any other questions for me?

I have...How many displays have been sold to see any BR or HDVD disc to it's fullest?

Since this is a game box...Of those displays that have been sold...How many units do you actually believe will be hooked up to the parents set that is already in the home that is capable of using it?...

Mac

The Surfer Dude

10-08-06, 01:33 PM

I have...How many displays have been sold to see any BR or HDVD disc to it's fullest?

Since this is a game box...Of those displays that have been sold...How many units do you actually believe will be hooked up to the parents set that is already in the home that is capable of using it?...

Mac

Microsoft's Peter Moore has already publicly stated 90% of early XBOX 360 adopters had HDTVs. It's only fair to give the benefit of the doubt to Playstation 3 and give them the same statistic. It should also be noted that XBOX 360 was solely a HD game console, and didn't offer HD movie playback as part of the package.

Regardless of how many 1080p sets are sold, I was not aware you could not see the upgrade HD DVD and Blu Ray have over DVD using a 720p set.

Mac11700

10-08-06, 02:00 PM

I have...How many displays have been sold to see any BR or HDVD disc to it's fullest?

I really don't believe you answered my question...now did you...

Mac

DevoX

10-08-06, 02:08 PM

3. And finally another guy who calls "Sony fanboys the worst" and then says "[Playstation 3 is] predestined to be a doomed console, much like the Atari Jaguar" in the same post.

Yes. That's exactly what I said. A fanboy is vociferously dellusional and every sentence he writes is a testament to the veracity of my statements. And then there're folks like me -- we're not fanboys of anything nor do we have brand loyalty. We look at things completely objectively. By great multitudes, we're right more often than not.

We call it like the world sees it. The marketplace has spoken: Blu-Ray is a dud and the PlayStation3 will be DOA.

In one year's time, expect a glut of stories on the news wires about:

1. An ecological disaster due to millions of un-sold or discarded PlayStation3's and Blu-Ray players being dumped in third-world nations.

2. Sony's collapse, dissolvement, and court-ordered bankruptcy auctions.

Mac11700

10-08-06, 02:10 PM

Microsoft's Peter Moore has already publicly stated 90% of early XBOX 360 adopters had HDTVs. It's only fair to give the benefit of the doubt to Playstation 3 and give them the same statistic. It should also be noted that XBOX 360 was solely a HD game console, and didn't offer HD movie playback as part of the package.

Yea...that just fine for x-box supporters...but...where did your assumption come in for the PS-3 being the same?Yes...the x-box is a game box...and was never issued as a HT stand alone player...How is it your drawing the conclusion that anyone wanting a stand alone player for their primary HDBR viewing will come on a game box?...Sure many kids have HD capable displays in their rooms...but...they are in their rooms...and what of J6P buying them...where are the movies going to watched...?...Who is the ones going to be dropping the cash...the parents...that's who...and most parents aren't going to let their kids onto their newly aquired 1080P sets...So...Who's going to be buying all the BR movies.....?...One last thing...just how good is the BR players for upconverting all of the SDVD's out their...Do you honestly believe most folks will want to stop viewing them????

Mac

darinp2

10-08-06, 02:35 PM

400.000 in 1 day.... :D :D :D that my friend is luncacy...it ain't going to happen...sure...they will sell quite a few...of that I am sure...but...they won't sell out...not for $500+ with tax...I don't know how many Sony will deliver, but I think thinking that they won't sell out is a lot closer to lunacy than the other direction. There are likely to be people waiting for hours (with many of those not being close enough to the front of the line to get one) with units selling on ebay for way over $500. It is possible that Sony may send too many to some smaller cities/towns and not sell units when they have people being turned away elsewhere. It is up to them to get them to the right places, but I think you will be surprised about how launch day goes. Do you think the ones one ebay are going to end up selling for cost or less?

You also seem to be assuming both that the high price will keep people from buying them and that the ones that are sold will be for kids. The high price is likely to skew owners even more toward the higher age range and the average age for the XBOX360 is probably already higher than you seem to think. The price is also likely to skew toward people with nice displays (since people who aren't willing or able to spend the money for a nice display are less likely to be willing or able to spend the money for an expensive PS3, in general).

Also, people don't need to have a 1080p display to get an improvement over DVD. 720p is fine.

--Darin

Mac11700

10-08-06, 02:41 PM

One last thing...both formats have to look to the future...and align themselves with what will be the standard...and that my friends is the internet...Which format has already done this...? Connectability is being overlooked..Pay On Demand..is growing by leaps and bounds...for not only movies..but also for the gaming industry...On-line gaming is surging ahead as what only a few ever dreamed it would...Microsoft will be in the fore front in the future...just as they are now...Both game box formats will excel in this...but...Sony has a hard road to follow to achieve what Microsoft has already done...and tieing their future on a game box and disc sales in hopes of swaying Q6P into utilizing them for their everyday HD viewing is stupid...

Mac

D-Nice

10-08-06, 02:42 PM

You can get 1080p via 3:2 pulldown from 1080i...

So how is 1080p beyond HD if you can get 1080p for a broadcast 1080i picture?

BTW, I find it hilarious that you have deleted your bogus post stating that 1080p is beyond the HD spec.

D-Nice

10-08-06, 02:50 PM

Mac11700

10-08-06, 02:54 PM

I don't know how many Sony will deliver, but I think thinking that they won't sell out is a lot closer to lunacy than the other direction. There are likely to be people waiting for hours (with many of those not being close enough to the front of the line to get one) with units selling on ebay for way over $500. It is possible that Sony may send too many to some smaller cities/towns and not sell units when they have people being turned away elsewhere. It is up to them to get them to the right places, but I think you will be surprised about how launch day goes. Do you think the ones one ebay are going to end up selling for cost or less?

You also seem to be assuming both that the high price will keep people from buying them and that the ones that are sold will be for kids. The high price is likely to skew owners even more toward the higher age range and the average age for the XBOX360 is probably already higher than you seem to think. The price is also likely to skew toward people with nice displays (since people who aren't willing or able to spend the money for a nice display are less likely to be willing or able to spend the money for an expensive PS3, in general).

Also, people don't need to have a 1080p display to get an improvement over DVD. 720p is fine.

--Darin

Only die hard Play Station fanatics are going to waitng for any lenght of time at any store...as to what anythingsells for on e-bay...well...I've seen a-lot of stupid people buying crap that they could get cheaper at Walley World :rolleyes:

You also seem to be assuming both that the high price will keep people from buying them and that the ones that are sold will be for kids. The price is also likely to skew toward people with nice displays (since people who aren't willing or able to spend the money for a nice display are less likely to be willing or able to spend the money for an expensive PS3, in general).

I think you have it bass ackwards...the vast majority people willing to go out and buy something new...aren't looking to spend $500 on a game box...most of them are looking to maximize their dollars and buy a new display or a cheaper player and utilize what they already have...As to the age brackets of the x-box users...ask Microsoft...thier core users range from 5 to 25 years old...Also...the PS-3 IS A GAME BOX....and that is how it is being marketed...I don't understand why some of you can't get that simple fact...The bulk of the sales will be for this purpose...and this purpose alone...The stand alone BR players is what Sony needs to make mainstream for J6P to buy them...and they haven't done this yet......

Mac

David Susilo

10-08-06, 02:59 PM

Bob, just let him be, after all the only things that make SD choose BD are

" BD50 are going to be ....."
" FOX's H.264 titles are coming next month."
" Playstation 3 is going to sell out on day one"

back to the "potential" instead of real-world tangible things.

PS: SD, you're contradicting yourself. You mentioned that BD is BETTER than HD-DVD, yet you also said that "how exactly can Blu Ray disc raise above the bar set at HD-DVD quality, if HD DVD quality is already 100% perfect to the master?". So you DO agree that BD is, at best, can not be better than HD-DVD.

darinp2

10-08-06, 03:01 PM

I think you have it bass ackwards...the vast majority people willing to go out and buy something new...aren't looking to spend $500 on a game box...most of them are looking to maximize their dollars and buy a new display or a cheaper player and utilize what they already have...This isn't really that logical. Of course the "vast majority of people...aren't looking to spend $500 on a game box". There are well over 200 million people in the US and we are talking about 400,000 boxes. You statement doesn't support that they won't sell out and it supports even more than it is people with more disposable income for electronics and video who are the most likely buyers.
As to the age brackets of the x-box users...ask Microsoft...thier core users range from 5 to 25 years old...Are you going back to the XBOX instead of the XBOX360 for some reason? The XBOX360 is the closest one for an analogy to the PS3 and I think you have the age range way off. Maybe those numbers are for Nintendo. And where did you get those numbers? Did you just guess based on your own impressions of gaming ages?

--Darin

trgraphics

10-08-06, 03:04 PM

Isn't Fox the one doing the boycotting? Some here say it's insane to boycott a studio because they are not releasing to HD DVD. Well, why is it alright for the studio to do it?

They will come to there sinces after the first of the year. When the sales figures come in for BR vs HD DVD. They will have no choice but to support the format that is actually selling product. And it won't be BR.

The reviews on the Panasonic player are no better than that of the Samsung player. Which really isn't a surprise since they are both 1st generation players. How many do you think they will sell at $1300.00 each.

Without the dedicated players, the studios can't sell the movies. How much simplier can it be than that!

darinp2

10-08-06, 03:10 PM

Without the dedicated players, the studios can't sell the movies. How much simplier can it be than that!Simple, but not true.

--Darin

trgraphics

10-08-06, 03:14 PM

Why do you think that? PS3 is to big a quesion mark to depend on it for BR movie sales.

The Surfer Dude

10-08-06, 03:14 PM

So how is 1080p beyond HD if you can get 1080p for a broadcast 1080i picture?

BTW, I find it hilarious that you have deleted your bogus post stating that 1080p is beyond the HD spec.

Blu Ray and HD DVD support 1080p30 video and 1080p60 video. 3:2 pulldown only works with 1080p24 film. Therefore, Blu Ray and HD DVD are both "beyond high definition", whether you want it to be or not.

You conveniently also ignored my point about lossless uncompressed audio, which is beyond the Dolby AC3 requirement spec.

Also, I didn't delete my post. I think a moderator might have.

Colmino

10-08-06, 03:15 PM

People. Quit feeding this joker. Be content with the facts. HD-DVD is a success and Blu-Ray is a catastrophe. Anything done to change that now won't have a whit of effect on the 100 or so MPEG2 movies already in production. Is there really any purpose in having a shouting match with somebody this desperate?

Richard Paul

10-08-06, 03:16 PM

Richard, hold on a minute there. No, it was not a rumour, it is fact.And it was not disproven - all that happened is that someone jumped up and down in 4 threads proclaiming it easn't so.

It is a fact, that right now the only way to get a VC1 encode for Bluray, is to encode VC1 to an HD DVD stream first, then run Microsoft's conversion tool on it, which changes the packaging into a Bluray stream.

This is fact and was confirmed by Amir - don't take this correction the wrong way, but it is not great when misinformation is posted here.

And to pre-empt a discussion on this, I respectfully submit the relevant quotes and links:
...rdjam, that is a pretty good attempt to disprove what I said and I have to hand it to you that not many people would dig up two quotes from Amir to do that. One little problem with that though is that what I said was true (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8578336&&#post8578336). Honestly it makes sense that you can create a VC-1 encoding made for both formats, or a VC-1 encoding that is only made for Blu-ray.

darinp2

10-08-06, 03:17 PM

Why do you think that? PS3 is to big a quesion mark to depend on it for BR movie sales.The PS3 is a question mark where there are opinions on each side and we will find out who is right. But the studios definitely can sell movies for the PS3. You seem to think they won't sell enough to matter and others think the opposite. We'll find out who is right, but your statement wasn't true. If Sony doesn't manufacture enough PS3s it could limit sales quite a bit.

--Darin

trgraphics

10-08-06, 03:26 PM

The PS3 is a question mark where there are opinions on each side and we will find out who is right. But the studios definitely can sell movies for the PS3. You seem to think they won't sell enough to matter and others think the opposite. We'll find out who is right, but your statement wasn't true. If Sony doesn't manufacture enough PS3s it could limit sales quite a bit.

--Darin

In my opinion, it's very true. In yours, it's not.

I'm basing what I say on facts that are available today and the current sales of BR players that are available. Your basing yours on pure speculation.

That's fine if you feel comforatable with that. I don't. The facts are that BR can't compete with HD DVD. Prove me wrong with facts not speculation.

D-Nice

10-08-06, 03:28 PM

Blu Ray and HD DVD support 1080p30 video and 1080p60 video. 3:2 pulldown only works with 1080p24 film. Therefore, Blu Ray and HD DVD are both "beyond high definition", whether you want it to be or not.

You conveniently also ignored my point about lossless uncompressed audio, which is beyond the Dolby AC3 requirement spec.

Also, I didn't delete my post. I think a moderator might have.

Neither formats are currently encoded beyond 1080p24. So how, AGAIN, are they beyond HD?

Why did I ignore your lossless audio speach? When did audio become part of a video spec. BD and HD DVD would still be considered HD if they carried 2.0 Dolby Digital correct? HD broadcast is still HD even though some of the audio is 2.0 DD, correct?

You are ignorant of the facts. Please brush up on your studies.

darinp2

10-08-06, 03:29 PM

Prove me wrong with facts not speculation.That is rather amusing given that your statement looks like pure speculation:
Without the dedicated players, the studios can't sell the movies.Or was your goal to tell people that without dedicated players today they can't sell movies today because there aren't any non-dedicated players (like the PS3) today. Simply, was your statement meant to apply after the PS3 ships, or wasn't it?

--Darin

darinp2

10-08-06, 03:31 PM

Neither formats are currently encoded beyond 1080p24. So how, AGAIN, are they beyond HD?That is a marketing term. Can you tell us how HD DVD is "perfect" today? I hope you realize that one isn't really accurate either.

I did tell somebody that they should make a t-shirt that says. "Blu-ray: Beyond High Definition - HD DVD: Beyond Blu-ray." :)

--Darin

The Surfer Dude

10-08-06, 03:49 PM

Neither formats are currently encoded beyond 1080p24. So how, AGAIN, are they beyond HD?

Why did I ignore your lossless audio speach? When did audio become part of a video spec. BD and HD DVD would still be considered HD if they carried 2.0 Dolby Digital correct? HD broadcast is still HD even though some of the audio is 2.0 DD, correct?

You are ignorant of the facts. Please brush up on your studies.

Key word is "currently"

The formats are not going to change at this point. They are both capable of holding 1080p30 and 1080p60 encoded files, regardless of whether any releases currently out are encoded in that or not.

Audio is part of the High Definition spec, video does not comprise the entirety of it. Lossless audio is NOT part of High Definitions spec, thus anything containing lossless audio is "Beyond High Definition" in that respect. You can not ignore audio just because it does not suit your argument. High Definition consists of both audio and video.

High Definition Television broadcast does not go beyond the 1080i or 1080p24 spec, High Definition DVD and Blu Ray, on the other hand, do.

You really should not be so quick to call someone "ignorant of the facts" when you do not even consider audio part of the High Definition spec. Even if Blu Ray and HD DVD were limited to 1080p24, which they are not, they could still both get away with claiming "Beyond High Definition" capabilities, simply because of the lossless audio they both can provide.

D-Nice

10-08-06, 03:50 PM

That is a marketing term. Can you tell us how HD DVD is "perfect" today? I hope you realize that one isn't really accurate either.

I did tell somebody that they should make a t-shirt that says. "Blu-ray: Beyond High Definition - HD DVD: Beyond Blu-ray." :)

--Darin

Because I'm debating what Surfer Dude is posting in the HD DVD forum, you are insinuating that I'm pro HD DVD? I would expect far more from someone with your "supposed" caliber. But since I have a few minutes I'll entertain your questions:

Can you tell us how HD DVD is "perfect" today?
It isn't. However it is much closer to your terminology of "perfection" than BD is. If you want to entertain this question further, my PM is wide open.

I hope you realize that one isn't really accurate either.
How isn't it? Exactly what coding format is encoded on a "blue laser" disc from Sony, Fox, Warner, Universal, Lions Gate, Paramount, MGM?

trgraphics

10-08-06, 03:52 PM

AHH, the old two step. You very good at that!

The numbers of players sold for both sides is estimated at HD DVD 50,000, BR 10,000.

The software is estimated to be selling at 11:1 by several sources in favor of HD DVD.

The actual numbers are not available from either side. But these come from several sources and have been discussed on this forum for quite some time.

And no, I do't believe the PS3 will have much of a long term effect on movie sales. But, I only have history(facts) to tell me that no game console has ever had an effect on movie sales in this country.

Now, I guess I could claim as you are that the MS addon will totally blow BR out of the water. But, since not a single one has been reviewed or even sold. That would be quite foolish on my part. But, you seem to think thats ok to do as long as your talking about the PS3.

Your free to ignore what is happening if you choose, that is your right. But, don't try to convince me that you know what the future will be for an unproven product.

The Surfer Dude

10-08-06, 03:54 PM

D-Nice

10-08-06, 03:59 PM

History (facts) also tell you that no other game console in history has attempted to push a movie format as hard as the Playstation 3. Please stop looking at only one side of the coin, your point is moot.

Umm, you mean disc format. And again you are incorrect. The last game console that attempted to push a disc format was the Sony PSP. Where are UMDs now?

The Surfer Dude

10-08-06, 04:01 PM

Umm, you mean disc format. And again you are incorrect. The last game console that attempted to push a disc format was the Sony PSP. Where are UMDs now?

The whole UMD/Blu Ray comparison, again... That's about as absurd as the DIVX/Blu Ray comparison. I'm not going to argue, as you're merely grasping for straws now.

D-Nice

10-08-06, 04:05 PM

The whole UMD/Blu Ray comparison, again... That's about as absurd as the DIVX/Blu Ray comparison. I'm not going to argue, as you're merely grasping for straws now.

I'm not comparing BD to UMD the way you are interpreting my post. I'm responding to your post regarding game consoles pushing new disc formats.

So strictly sticking to what game console has in the past, your answer is the PSP. Was the disc format it was pushing successful? Nope. Now, if the BD group is banking on another game console to make it's disc format successful, history states that the odds are against them.

trgraphics

10-08-06, 04:10 PM

History (facts) also tell you that no other game console in history has attempted to push a movie format as hard as the Playstation 3. Please stop looking at only one side of the coin, your point is moot.

Really. How about the PS2. They said the same thing about that player because it included dvd. They have sold quite a few of those and no one, except maybe you or Darin will claim that it made dvd what it is today.

slider33

10-08-06, 04:35 PM

Where are UMDs now?

They're selling for $8 in the bottom row of the back corner display at Wal-Mart.

Look, this is what is going to happen.

2 months from now J6P walks into BB because he has heard about HD DVD/Blu-ray and wants to check it out. He bought an HDTV last year and has been enjoying HD sports and wants to see movies in HD also.

J6P: "Hi, I was looking at this display of HD-DVD and Blu-ray here, can you tell me the differences between them?"

BB sales guy: "Well, they're both high definition DVD... HD-DVD has had better ratings while on paper Blu-Ray is better because each disc can hold more information. Theoretically this is better, but so far in practice that hasn't really proven to be the case."

J6P: "So you're saying HD-DVD has a little better quailty?"

BB sales guy: "Well, I would leave that for your eyes to decide... But yes, most reviews say that HD-DVD is better in terms of picture quailty. Even the best Blu-Ray titles are only equal to HD-DVD at this moment in time."

J6P: "Well, if that's the case, why would I want to buy Blu-Ray at double the price?"

BB sales guy: "Well, you can get a Blu-Ray player for the same price as HD-DVD, the Playstation 3 will play Blu-Ray movies... But they seem to be sold out at the moment."

J6P: "Even if you had them, that's a gaming system, why would I want to play movies on some kids video game console?"

End of story.

The Surfer Dude

10-08-06, 04:43 PM

Playstation 3, a kids console?

Rofl.

Even Joe Six Pack knows that's a load of horse crap.

slider33

10-08-06, 04:46 PM

Playstation 3, a kids console?

Rofl.

Even Joe Six Pack knows that's a load of horse crap.

To a 40 year old man, it's a kids console.

David Susilo

10-08-06, 05:10 PM

heck, to a 34 year old guy, it's still a kids' console.

The Surfer Dude

10-08-06, 05:33 PM

What would the Wii be considered, if Playstation 3 is a kid's console? I'm interested in hearing your opinions.

David Susilo

10-08-06, 05:36 PM

Wii is also a kids' console. Your point?

tsd2005

10-08-06, 05:42 PM

They're selling for $8 in the bottom row of the back corner display at Wal-Mart.

Look, this is what is going to happen.

2 months from now J6P walks into BB because he has heard about HD DVD/Blu-ray and wants to check it out. He bought an HDTV last year and has been enjoying HD sports and wants to see movies in HD also.

J6P: "Hi, I was looking at this display of HD-DVD and Blu-ray here, can you tell me the differences between them?"

BB sales guy: "Well, they're both high definition DVD... HD-DVD has had better ratings while on paper Blu-Ray is better because each disc can hold more information. Theoretically this is better, but so far in practice that hasn't really proven to be the case."

J6P: "So you're saying HD-DVD has a little better quailty?"

BB sales guy: "Well, I would leave that for your eyes to decide... But yes, most reviews say that HD-DVD is better in terms of picture quailty. Even the best Blu-Ray titles are only equal to HD-DVD at this moment in time."

J6P: "Well, if that's the case, why would I want to buy Blu-Ray at double the price?"

BB sales guy: "Well, you can get a Blu-Ray player for the same price as HD-DVD, the Playstation 3 will play Blu-Ray movies... But they seem to be sold out at the moment."

J6P: "Even if you had them, that's a gaming system, why would I want to play movies on some kids video game console?"

End of story.

What salesperson is going to say that? I was just at BB with a friend trying to find a HD-DVD player in this city.

The BB kid said "Don't buy that, buy Blu-Ray it has twice the picture quality."

I said "How?"

"1080p vs 1080i, it's twice the pixels"

"Kid, don't sell things you don't know anything about. You're just wrong. Fact is that the PQ on both units right now is rather equal. HD-DVD costs half as much, so this guy is buying HD-DVD."

BB sales people are idiots.

They're trained that way.

The Surfer Dude

10-08-06, 05:43 PM

My point is that things priced at $599.99 aren't exactly being marketed towards children.

SONY, FOX, Disney, and supposedly Paramount are all banking on the Playstation 3 to push the Blu Ray format to success. Whether or not it happens is still of course unknown, but to dismiss the Playstation 3 as merely a "child's toy" while at least 3 major film studios are counting on it to push the format is uneducated.

rdjam

10-08-06, 05:43 PM

so how exactly can Blu Ray disc raise above the bar set at HD-DVD quality?
Well, I think you just said what everyone here has been trying to say...

So far about only 19% of the respondents to the poll have said they'll buy any Fox or Sony Pictures releases. So I would say that 80% of folks here will not be...

Again, I wouldn't call it a "boycott by users" - more just Fox and Sony have "boycotted themselves", to about 80% of the buyers here...

The Surfer Dude

10-08-06, 05:49 PM

Well, I think you just said what everyone here has been trying to say...

So far about only 19% of the respondents to the poll have said they'll buy any Fox or Sony Pictures releases. So I would say that 80% of folks here will not be...

Again, I wouldn't call it a "boycott by users" - more just Fox and Sony have "boycotted themselves", to about 80% of the buyers here...

Yes, but FOX doesn't WANT to put films out on HD DVD. Should they provide content that is on par with the quality of Universal's HD DVD releases (which by FAR, IMO, have been the strongest releases on either format, quality wise), why would anyone WANT to boycott FOX films?

If you're going to boycott high quality FOX HD films because they're not on your format of preference, it sounds to me like you aren't interested in FOX movies anyways, and them being on the other side shouldn't matter to you in the first place.

Should FOX Blu Ray content deliver in spades, like many are saying they will, why wouldn't you want to support Blu Ray? The reasons many of you are claiming to not support Blu Ray is because the quality simply isn't there. Should FOX's releases have that quality many of you are waiting for, and you STILL aren't jumping onboard Blu Ray, then it seems like you have some serious bias and care more about your format of choice that doesn't have the FOX content rather thant he FOX content itself.

rdjam

10-08-06, 05:59 PM

rdjam, that is a pretty good attempt to disprove what I said and I have to hand it to you that not many people would dig up two quotes from Amir to do that. One little problem with that though is that what I said was true (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8578336&&#post8578336). Honestly it makes sense that you can create a VC-1 encoding made for both formats, or a VC-1 encoding that is only made for Blu-ray.
Richard - with full respect, I don't think that you are being completely honest with yourself.

I refer back to my post on the matter - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8605479&&#post8605479

The quotes are completely definitive. I will ask everyone else here to read my post and perhaps someone else could take you on, since I do not think that it would be productive for me to go any further.

Your quote above is from Ben Waggoner - and all he is saying is that the HD DVD VC1 encode "could" be set to exceed the HD DVD specifications (if desired) - but I would stress that it would then STILL have to be converted from the HD DVD formatting to that of Bluray.

I would add my opinion to this and state that I don't think that most studios using the MS enocder *would* feel the need to exceed the HD DVD specifications, sinc they would know that HD DVD VC1s are already providing transparency - AND they may want to use the encode to release HD DVD discs as well...

I'm not sure if you genuinely have not yet understood this yet - but this is my last comment on the matter. Could someone please take a look at the quotes in my post linked above and let me know if it was not clearly enough detailed?

Certainly, Amir has stated that "in the future", the VC1 MS encoder may have the option added to encode directly to a Bluray formatted output, but that at this time, that is NOT the case.

Hope this helps... Peace.

tsd2005

10-08-06, 06:03 PM

Should FOX Blu Ray content deliver in spades, like many are saying they will, why wouldn't you want to support Blu Ray? The reasons many of you are claiming to not support Blu Ray is because the quality simply isn't there. Should FOX's releases have that quality many of you are waiting for, and you STILL aren't jumping onboard Blu Ray, then it seems like you have some serious bias and care more about your format of choice that doesn't have the FOX content rather thant he FOX content itself.

Your arguement is that we should all go out and spend an extra $1,000 to be able to play a FOX title in High Def?

I'd rather boycott FOX DVDs (which is the point of the post, not BD). 1. I don't buy DVD anymore. It's dead, it just doesn't know it yet. My $10 to $20 a movie can go to HD titles.

I currently will do nothing to support a Format War. I will however tell everyone I know to buy what is the best for the Dollar:

HD-DVD.

For half the initial buy in, you can get great quality.

PS3 is a GAME MACHINE. It is nothing but a game machine. I've seen one play BD discs and was not impressed. In fact I think the Samsung is better. I'm just not impressed with a game machine to play my movie collection. You have to buy a Remote so you're not using a controller. That's an extra $40 for a $5 remote.

FOX is currently being stuborn and imho creating a Format War to cause me trouble. They want me and every other consumer to spend more money on a format that offers nothing truly greater in return. They're backing the Elite/Expensive alternative.

Screw that.

As long as FOX, Sony, & MGM are playing their pathetic format war game, I'm not buying anything of theirs. I'll back the Studio films in the movie theater as I've always done. That is it. I will not sell one Sony Projector or buy one. The company I partly own is a Sony dealer. We're telling our customers that we won't be selling their product this holiday season because they're backing a format war.

That's my decision. There shouldn't be a format war by the Studios. They should support both and let the consumer decide. They'll make their money either way. At least Universal chose the consumer's best choice (the least expensive for the same or in fact better quality).

rdjam

10-08-06, 06:07 PM

I think rdjam might finally comprehend this. As you know, if rdjam was right then Amir would have likely responded to our questions right after that post you linked to, but since Amir knows that I was right he didn't say anything.Again - http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8605479&&#post8605479

Based on what rdjam told me, it looks like he requested that a mod delete the thread with false statements and then he started a new one where he worded things differently to make them true
--Darin
Hi Darin - That is incorrect. I did not request anything of the sort, nor did I "tell you" anything of the sort.

You may wish to ask the mod why he deleted your posts but it was nothing to with me. I suspect that he felt the tone crossed a certain line, but that is entirely my speculation.

It may be a good idea for you to PM Amir or Ben to comment here if you don't feel that the conversation I posted above was clear enough.

Hope this helps... Peace.

The Surfer Dude

10-08-06, 06:07 PM

Your arguement is that we should all go out and spend an extra $1,000 to be able to play a FOX title in High Def?

I'd rather boycott FOX DVDs (which is the point of the post, not BD). 1. I don't buy DVD anymore. It's dead, it just doesn't know it yet. My $10 to $20 a movie can go to HD titles.

I currently will do nothing to support a Format War. I will however tell everyone I know to buy what is the best for the Dollar:

HD-DVD.

For half the initial buy in, you can get great quality.

PS3 is a GAME MACHINE. It is nothing but a game machine. I've seen one play BD discs and was not impressed. In fact I think the Samsung is better. I'm just not impressed with a game machine to play my movie collection. You have to buy a Remote so you're not using a controller. That's an extra $40 for a $5 remote.

FOX is currently being stuborn and imho creating a Format War to cause me trouble. They want me and every other consumer to spend more money on a format that offers nothing truly greater in return. They're backing the Elite/Expensive alternative.

Screw that.

As long as FOX, Sony, & MGM are playing their pathetic format war game, I'm not buying anything of theirs. I'll back the Studio films in the movie theater as I've always done. That is it. I will not sell one Sony Projector or buy one. The company I partly own is a Sony dealer. We're telling our customers that we won't be selling their product this holiday season because they're backing a format war.

That's my decision. There shouldn't be a format war by the Studios. They should support both and let the consumer decide. They'll make their money either way. At least Universal chose the consumer's best choice (the least expensive for the same or in fact better quality).

You say FOX is playing a pathetic format war game by releasing only on one format?

That's completely ridiculous. They're trying to end the format war, and if anything, releasing on BOTH formats is prolonging and contributing to this "pathetic format war game".

tsd2005

10-08-06, 06:21 PM

You say FOX is playing a pathetic format war game by releasing only on one format?

That's completely ridiculous. They're trying to end the format war, and if anything, releasing on BOTH formats is prolonging and contributing to this "pathetic format war game".

Yes I am saying that. They're making the Format War one that the Consumer can't decide for themselves.

If Sony really believed in their product they'd release content for BOTH.

They'd make money in the process.

Then the CONSUMER would decide. However Sony knows the Consumer will choose HD-DVD. They did their research they know that the NAME RECOGNITION of HD-DVD is worth too much. They also know that Consumers make decisions based on their wallets. They knew that HD-DVD player would be cheaper (due to ray positioning), they knew mastering, etc. They knew that HD-DVD had the price edge!

So what did they do? They went out and bought Studio exclusivity from whatever Studio Whore would take the plunge. FOX did just that. FOX doesn't care about consumers. If they did they'd be releasing to both formats and would be NEUTRAL.

Neutrality defeats the purpose of war.

If every studio was NEUTRAL there wouldn't be a format war. It would just be your common everyday consumer market. The consumer would buy the product that worked best for them.

HD-DVD would win out, and BD would be dead, dead, dead. PS3 or not.

So yes FOX is being a horrible company taking part in a format war just like they did with DIVX their last lovable format.

I hated FOX for their DIVX lovefest. I hate them just as much now for their BD lovefest. You knew when FOX said they were BD, that BD was not in the consumer's best interest. FOX hates consumers.

Ask yourself one simple question:

If every Studio backed up both formats equally, which would you buy as a STANDALONE player?

Exactly.

Forceflow

10-08-06, 06:23 PM

Could someone please take a look at the quotes in my post linked above and let me know if it was not clearly enough detailed?

Certainly, Amir has stated that "in the future", the VC1 MS encoder may have the option added to encode directly to a Bluray formatted output, but that at this time, that is NOT the case.

Hope this helps... Peace.

It certainly cleared up the confusion and misinformation on my end. Long live VC-1! Long live HD DVD! I have to hand it to MS for providing a great codec to truly save HD DVD. If it wasn't for VC-1, we probably would have been looking at BD as the only option, and that option is a total mess right now. Heck, I may have bought D-THEATER (offered a great deal 100 bucks, for a top notch JVC deck, but I declined because media was so expensive). Frankly, HD DVD looks to be aiming for greater studio support and MS looks happy to take on extra licenses for VC-1. A win-win for HD DVD owners.

rwduke

10-08-06, 06:26 PM

Your arguement is that we should all go out and spend an extra $1,000 to be able to play a FOX title in High Def?

Exactly. Why should I be FORCED to spend another 1k to watch Fox's movies? There is no way I would even consider it. The install base is pretty large for HD-DVD and growing daily. If they want to sell their titles to the majority of hi-def users they can release their titles on HD-DVD as well.

Besides, Fox is the last studio I would let force me to do anything. They are always on the losing side of format issues. I remember the DIVX fiasco which Fox was on board. I also remember that Fox was very late in issuing DVDs at all. I would never look to Fox to indicate what format will succeed, that is for sure.

The studios releasing on HD-DVD are keeping me plenty busy with high-quality transfers and they are getting my hard-earned money. I expect we will be seeing more studios become neurtral very soon. There are just too many HD-DVD players out there to ignore. If Fox or any other studio wants my money, they will put their movies on HD-DVD and I'll gladly buy them. If not, I'll live without their movies.

The only way I would buy Blu-Ray now is if a very reasonably priced universal player came out. Not likely to happen. I do not want to have two players. I only have a single HDMI connection, why would I want to have to switch the HDMI cable to the proper player every time I want to see a movie on a different format? Forget it, it's HD-DVD or nothing for me at this point.

tsd2005

10-08-06, 06:35 PM

As a Blu Ray fan, why should I be FORCED to purchase an HD DVD player just for Universal's content, when everything else is on Blu Ray?

Once again, please refrain from looking at only one side of the coin.

Surfer answer the question:

If all Studios and CE companies EQUALLY supported both formats which would you buy?

If you answer BD, you're nuts. You can justify spending twice as much money just for a disc thats read at a much more expensive to achieve angle?

I'm a movie fan, as are most people. We buy things to witness them in High Definition.

Currently Sony, Fox, and MGM are backing a format that costs more money and refuse to create an equal marketplace for the consumer to make their decision.

That is the bottom line.

The Surfer Dude

10-08-06, 06:39 PM

Surfer answer the question:

If all Studios and CE companies EQUALLY supported both formats which would you buy?

If you answer BD, you're nuts. You can justify spending twice as much money just for a disc thats read at a much more expensive to achieve angle?

I'm a movie fan, as are most people. We buy things to witness them in High Definition.

Currently Sony, Fox, and MGM are backing a format that costs more money and refuse to create an equal marketplace for the consumer to make their decision.

That is the bottom line.

As of right now, Studios and CE companies aren't equally supporting both formats, they are HEAVILY leaning towards Blu Ray.

Say they all were equally supporting both formats, I'd take 50 GB, 54 MB/s over 30 GB, 36 MB/s any day...

Starting on November 17th, HD DVD doesn't have a price advantage any more... Regardless of whether or not Playstation 3 plays games in addition to Blu Ray movies, if it plays those Blu Ray movies as well as a standalone player, there's no reason to discredit it.

tsd2005

10-08-06, 06:39 PM

What would be the point of HD DVD after November 17th, if Universal backed Blu Ray?

What happens on November 17th?

A game machine gets released?

The PS3 isn't deciding a war. It doesn't stand the chance. For one I've seen it play BDs. The Standalone players do a better job.

If every studio and CE company backed up both EQUALLY, this would be already over. HD-DVD would have won in a landslide. BD can't compete with the pricing or manufacturing ease of HD-DVD. That is a fact.

The Surfer Dude

10-08-06, 06:41 PM

What happens on November 17th?

A game machine gets released?

The PS3 isn't deciding a war. It doesn't stand the chance. For one I've seen it play BDs. The Standalone players do a better job.

If every studio and CE company backed up both EQUALLY, this would be already over. HD-DVD would have won in a landslide. BD can't compete with the pricing or manufacturing ease of HD-DVD. That is a fact.

FOX and Disney apparently don't agree with you, at all. When FOX talks of having millions of Blu Ray players in people's homes by the end of 2006, they're obviously referring to the Playstation 3.

I seriously doubt you've seen Playstation 3 playing any BDs, because everyone that has seen it playing BDs seems to have the same impressions of it, that it plays them just as well as any standalone players do.

rwduke

10-08-06, 06:44 PM

What would be the point of HD DVD after November 17th, if Universal backed Blu Ray?
1. The number of users with an HD-DVD player.
2. The price difference for players.

What sickens me is that both sides of this format war refused to compromise and instead have turned movie lovers in raving war-mongers.

You are a self-appointed "Blu-Ray fan".

I am a movie lover and a Hi-Def fan, not an HD-DVD fan. HD-DVD happened to get to market first at a reasonable price, so I jumped at the chance to see movies in hi-def. That was Sony's biggest mistake was being second to market (in my opinion). I was all set to buy a Blu-Ray player but then HD-DVD came out first and it was cheaper. I liked the quality that I got and therefore have no need to buy a different format.

That is why I'm not letting a few studios force me to spend additional money on hardware.

I will not watch movies on a gaming system. And I will not buy a second stand alone player for a different format.

The Surfer Dude

10-08-06, 06:47 PM

1. The number of users with an HD-DVD player.
2. The price difference for players.

What sickens me is that both sides of this format war refused to compromise and instead have turned movie lovers in raving war-mongers.

You are a self-appointed "Blu-Ray fan".

I am a movie lover and a Hi-Def fan, not an HD-DVD fan. HD-DVD happened to get to market first at a reasonable price, so I jumped at the chance to see movies in hi-def. That was Sony's biggest mistake was being second to market (in my opinion). I was all set to buy a Blu-Ray player but then HD-DVD came out first and it was cheaper. I liked the quality that I got and therefore have no need to buy a different format.

That is why I'm not letting a few studios force me to spend additional money on hardware.

I will not watch movies on a gaming system. And I will not buy a second stand alone player for a different format.

1. After November 17th, the number of Blu Ray owners will DRAMATICALLY eclipse the number of HD DVD owners. More Blu Ray players will be sold on November 17th than HD DVD players have been sold since April.

2. On November 17th, the price difference between HD DVD will be cut to 0. $499 for the cheapeast Blu Ray player.

So basically, you're admitting that you are an early adopter of the next gen movie formats, picked HD DVD, and now you're cutting your nose to spite your face because you ended up jumping the gun with a format that has half of the content support of the other?

tsd2005

10-08-06, 06:47 PM

As of right now, Studios and CE companies aren't equally supporting both formats, they are HEAVILY leaning towards Blu Ray.

Say they all were equally supporting both formats, I'd take 50 GB, 54 MB/s over 30 GB, 36 MB/s any day...

Starting on November 17th, HD DVD doesn't have a price advantage any more... Regardless of whether or not Playstation 3 plays games in addition to Blu Ray movies, if it plays those Blu Ray movies as well as a standalone player, there's no reason to discredit it.

Dude, you're a fan of an Angle! I just had Sony show off their PS3 to me. I wasn't impressed. As a BD player it's not as good as the Samsung.

What about when the Chinese players hit the market at $300 and less?

Who has the price edge then?

Why are Denon, Marantz, Onkyo, Pioneer, Integra, NAD, and others preparing HD-DVDs for CES?

Why is Disney and LG preparing for Neutrality at CES?

HD-DVD players are easier and less expensive to manufacture.

HD-DVD has the same potential real world PQ and AQ as BD the byte rates don't have a real world edge. If you need 50GB, get a Dual sided HD-DVD disc.

Come Spring (worst possible launch date for the Chinese players), HD-DVD will be $200 cheaper than the PS3, and $700 cheaper than the currently planned cheapest BD player.

It's nice that you're a gamer and have delusions about the PS3. That's fine. You're a fan of technological white paper. That's fine.

You do know you don't share the common consumers opinions. You know as well as Sony does that if all Studios were Neutral, BD would be dead.

The Surfer Dude

10-08-06, 06:49 PM

You do know you don't share the common consumers opinions. You know as well as Sony does that if all Studios were Neutral, BD would be dead.

The common consumer is going to see a next gen game console comboed with a next gen high def media player all for the low price of $499.

Does the HD-A1 play games along with it?

To the "common consumer", the Playstation 3 is going to be a massive bargain, especially considering those prices of standalone Blu Ray players. Remember, the common consumer isn't a videophile that's going to care as much about standalone vs. console as long as the console performs well, which everyone besides yourself has said it does.

If all of the studios were neutral, you'd see the same shovelware crap being released on HD DVD from SONY and Lion's Gate, but you'd see amazing quality Universal releases on Blu Ray. I don't think much would change in HD DVD's favor.

rwduke

10-08-06, 06:57 PM

So basically, you're admitting that you are an early adopter of the next gen movie formats, picked HD DVD, and now you're cutting your nose to spite your face because you ended up jumping the gun with a format that has half of the content support of the other?

Half the content? There are more titles on HD-DVD than there is on Blu-Ray.

And just because there will be many playstations sold does not mean that they will be used as Blu-Ray movie players. That is a pipe dream.

And finally, if you were so sure of your format you wouldn't be in the other format's forum desperately screaming superiority and insulting buyers of HD-DVD.

You've lost sight of what we are all after, hi-def movies. You sound like a Sony rep.

I'm not on the Blu-Ray forum insulting everyone over there because I wish they would support HD-DVD. Frankly I would hate to think I was that desperate.

If HD-DVD ends up not succeeding then it is my investment lost which is really none of your business.

I've stated my reasoning and I'm not going to get into a pissing contest with you because all you can think about is a format. I'm in this for movies not a "my format is better than your format" playground argument.

tsd2005

10-08-06, 06:59 PM

FOX and Disney apparently don't agree with you, at all. When FOX talks of having millions of Blu Ray players in people's homes by the end of 2006, they're obviously referring to the Playstation 3.

I seriously doubt you've seen Playstation 3 playing any BDs, because everyone that has seen it playing BDs seems to have the same impressions of it, that it plays them just as well as any standalone players do.

Well I have, and it didn't impress me at all. It is not as good as the Samsung. I have no reason to lie. Sony doesn't do jack for me. So I don't have to lie to get Sony to pat my head.

Disney does agree with me. Disney is releasing to HD-DVD, and announcing at CES.

FOX is run by idiots. I fully plan on chewing out Peter this week in Long Beach. I think Ken (Universal) will be right there with me calling him out for being a total tool to Sony.

I know the real world scenarios for the format war. I've been in meetings you haven't. I know Sony's game. They knew they'd lost the war a year ago so they went after Studios HARDCORE.

Their promises were empty. LG and Disney see it. If Peter is still spewing garbage this week I'll be shocked. In fact I bet we get our first comments from Peter about HD-DVD not being as bad as he thought.

You can say whatever you want, but you know as well as anyone that if Studios were neutral that Toshiba wouldn't be able to manufacture enough units to keep up with demand.

As it is they're convinced they can SELL 500,000 movie only players before January 1st, 2007. That will be enough to keep things moving along for HD-DVD. The 6M PS3s will be nice, but they will be primarily game machines. In fact they figure that 4M of those 6M will be bought by people WITHOUT A HDTV.

The Surfer Dude

10-08-06, 07:01 PM

tsd2005

10-08-06, 07:03 PM

The common consumer is going to see a next gen game console comboed with a next gen high def media player all for the low price of $499.

Does the HD-A1 play games along with it?

To the "common consumer", the Playstation 3 is going to be a massive bargain, especially considering those prices of standalone Blu Ray players. Remember, the common consumer isn't a videophile that's going to care as much about standalone vs. console as long as the console performs well, which everyone besides yourself has said it does.

If all of the studios were neutral, you'd see the same shovelware crap being released on HD DVD from SONY and Lion's Gate, but you'd see amazing quality Universal releases on Blu Ray. I don't think much would change in HD DVD's favor.

The common consumer doesn't care about a "console," in fact the common consumer doesn't play games. The majority of buyers of CE equipment are between the ages of 40 to 60. They don't play games.

You're a gamer. You're a fan of a laser angle. That's fine.

Fact is very soon HD-DVD players will be around $250 within 6 months. The true common consumer will care about that. When those players get released, HD-DVD will be sold in the millions and yes, outsell the PS3.

The Surfer Dude

10-08-06, 07:04 PM

Where do you get the impression that I'm a gamer? I haven't argued anything about using the Playstation 3 for anything besides movies, and that the combo of game player + video player is quite enticing, tsd2005.

I think you've already gotten this preconceived notion that everyone will be purchasing a Playstation 3 for games, and it is false.

To me, in Playstation 3, I see a very cheap Blu Ray player that happens to also play games, in a $499 package.

tsd2005

10-08-06, 07:12 PM

If we were all after Hi-Def movies, there wouldn't be people crying like babies about trying to boycott a certain company's SD DVD releases because they won't release in XXX format.

I have an HD-A1, and I LOVE my Universal titles. I also happen to love my FOX, Disney and SONY films as well, thus I will be getting into Blu Ray. I'm not buying a standalone Blu Ray player. A $499 Playstation 3 will more than suffice for me, and it is definitely worth it to see a bunch of great movies that will not be available on HD DVD.

Just because there are plenty of HD DVD players out there doesn't mean it's a garaunteed sale of whatever movie is released on the format, either. Bottom line, a Blu Ray player sold is a Blu Ray player sold, it's up to the studios to convince people whether or not to buy content for it.

You just don't get it. A $499 game machine that is ok at BD is good for you. That is fine. You're not everyone. The majority doesn't play games. The early adaptors definately don't play games.

Boycotting a company that wants to force the hands of the consumer to spend more money than they need to is SMART. I refused to buy DIVX, and I'm refusing to buy BD. When FOX said they were BD, I KNEW right then that the consumer's best choice was HD-DVD.

The pitch worked on Disney and LG in the begining. Then they started seeing HD-DVD sales, and then they realised it does matter that HD-DVD player manufacturing is STEADY and CHEAPER. Real world figures will be that Chinese $250 or $300 HD-DVD players will outsell PS3. The big reason is they will be available.

Sony will BARELY be able to get 400,000 players total for their release. They will be lucky to have a million by the end of the year. Their manufacturing issues are REAL WORLD. They aren't vapor PR talk.

MS will have 500,000 HD-DVD addons ready. Toshiba will have 500,000 HD-DVD players SHIPPED by January 1st, 2007. I bet they both sell quite a few of them. Add the 100,000 from RCA. Sanyo may be entering the game with their $400 player in Wal-Mart (although their market research shows that a $300 price point is smarter for Wal-Mart, so they may holdoff until they can make money at that price point).

Don't be surprised if Ron Shwartz uses this weeks event to be the one where he announced LG's support of HD-DVD. I know there is a lot of pressure on him to do so.