What audio formats does PS3 support? And does the PS3 do the encoding of the audio, or does the game have to be encoded for that audio type?

What audio formats does PS3 support? And does the PS3 do the encoding of the audio, or does the game have to be encoded for that audio type?http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=732868

Looks like DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD. Does the PS3 encode the surround sound on it's own, or is it already encoded on the soundtrack of the games?

Will all the games support DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD?

Looks like DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD. Does the PS3 encode the surround sound on it's own, or is it already encoded on the soundtrack of the games?

Will all the games support DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD?
Like the Xbox 360, the PS3 does Dolby Digital Live encoding (lossy compression), which is the optimal method of multichannel gaming audio for those with only SPDIF connectivity.

Games will also support multichannel LPCM for HDMI, which is the best method possible as no compression methods are used.

Dolby TrueHD decoding is for sources that are pre-encoded with TrueHD, like future Blu-Ray movies. TrueHD can be decoded and sent as LPCM over HDMI, or sent as straight bitstream for a processor to decode. The PS3 thus far will only output DTS-HD MA via HDMI 1.3 through bitstream, and not as LPCM after internal decoding (it doesn't decode the lossless codec).

Like the Xbox 360, the PS3 does Dolby Digital Live encoding (lossy compression), which is the optimal method of multichannel gaming audio for those with only SPDIF connectivity.When you're saying Live encoding, do you mean the audio format Dolby Digital Live, or do you mean it is doing the Dolby Digital encoding on the spot?

Games will also support multichannel LPCM for HDMI, which is the best method possible as no compression methods are used.So what format will it be in?

So why does a game (Xbox 360 game, for example) have to support Dolby Digital if the 360 does the encoding?

Dolby TrueHD decoding is for sources that are pre-encoded with TrueHD, like future Blu-Ray movies.So PS3 games will not support Dolby TrueHD?

TrueHD can be decoded and sent as LPCM over HDMI, or sent as straight bitstream for a processor to decode. The PS3 thus far will only output DTS-HD MA via HDMI 1.3 through bitstream, and not as LPCM after internal decoding (it doesn't decode the lossless codec).So what formats are the PS3 games supposed to support? Will the PS3 decode Dolby TrueHD?

Basically here is what I am trying to figure out. No receiver on the market today has Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD-MA decoding (the lossless formats). I want to know if the PS3 will do all of the decoding internally so that I can send lossless (or the other types of audio the PS3 outputs) out over the HDMI connection, and so that my receiver will not have to do any decoding. So since the PS3 is going to be encoding the audio since it's not already encoded on games, does it then decode it since the decoders are built into PS3? If so, in what format?

Oh my God, where to start? :eek: :p

When you're saying Live encoding, do you mean the audio format Dolby Digital Live, or do you mean it is doing the Dolby Digital encoding on the spot?
Dolby Digital Live refers to the hardware doing a live encoding of proprietary audio formats into Dolby Digital. For instance, PC game audio coded in DirectSound, OpenAL, or whatever, is encoded into Dolby Digital on-the-fly by a sound card that has Dolby Digital Live technology. Such technology is in the Xbox, the Xbox 360, and the PS3.

So what format will it be in?
Dolby Digital, TrueHD, DTS, etc., are all compression methods. LPCM from the PS3 is merely a raw output of game audio without having to undergo compression. Before HDMI was available, compressing game audio into Dolby Digital or DTS was the only viable method of getting widespread surround sound compatibility for console gamers, as SPDIF connectivity was and still is common. The PC has had multichannel analog for uncompressed gaming audio, but that hasn't been a viable method of audio delivery for console gaming.

So why does a game (Xbox 360 game, for example) have to support Dolby Digital if the 360 does the encoding?
Unlike pre-rendered movies, in-game gameplay cannot be pre-encoded with Dolby Digital or any other compression format. The games are coded in some form of sound API, and then encoded on-the-fly by the console.

So PS3 games will not support Dolby TrueHD?
There's no real purpose for games to "support" TrueHD through live encoding when uncompressed LPCM is available. Since HDMI is needed for delivering multichannel TrueHD on the PS3, those with HDMI receivers will always prefer a raw, uncompressed audio delivery. In this case, TrueHD is unnecessary compression added to the process.

So what formats are the PS3 games supposed to support? Will the PS3 decode Dolby TrueHD?
As mentioned multiple times, the PS3 will decode TrueHD, but it won't encode TrueHD on-the-fly for games. For multichannel audio delivery, the PS3 will output game audio in Dolby Digital (and possibly DTS) through live encoding, and through uncompressed LPCM. Pre-rendered cutscenes may be pre-encoded in something like DTS or Dolby Digital, but that's for the game developers to decide.

Basically here is what I am trying to figure out. No receiver on the market today has Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD-MA decoding (the lossless formats). I want to know if the PS3 will do all of the decoding internally so that I can send lossless (or the other types of audio the PS3 outputs) out over the HDMI connection, and so that my receiver will not have to do any decoding. So since the PS3 is going to be encoding the audio since it's not already encoded on games, does it then decode it since the decoders are built into PS3? If so, in what format?
As for the advanced lossless codecs, the PS3 is looking to internally decode TrueHD and not DTS-HD MA. Therefore, you need an HDMI 1.3 receiver with DTS-HD MA decoding in order to playback the lossless layer. If you don't have such a setup, you will only get the core DTS layer of the codec. The PS3 could very well do DTS-HD MA decoding in the future.

Ok, thanks a lot. Just let me clarify a few things. Let me know if I am wrong.For multichannel audio delivery, the PS3 will output game audio in Dolby Digital (and possibly DTS) through live encoding, and through uncompressed LPCM.So it's Dolby Digital (possibly DTS) for optical toslink/coax, and LPCM through HDMI. The only reason for the Dolby TrueHD decoding built in is for blu-ray movies.


So when playing PS3 games via HDMI, it will output them in LPCM audio. This is neither Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD-MA. So what will my receiver recognize this audio signal as? Obviously it is a digital signal since it is coming in thru HDMI, so I should be able to use PLIIx and bass management options on it.

So do the PS3 games have to have support for LPCM in order for the PS3 to output LPCM? (that was the root of my Xbox question about the games supporting Dolby Digital). What I was asking was, why do all the Xbox 360 games advertise Dolby Digital on the case? Does the game itself have to support Dolby Digital in order for the 360 to encode it as such?

ALSO--Does my receiver have to have HDMI 1.3 to receive LPCM?The PS3 could very well do DTS-HD MA decoding in the future.How is this so?

Ok, thanks a lot. Just let me clarify a few things.
No problem.

Let me know if I am wrong.So it's Dolby Digital (possibly DTS) for optical toslink/coax, and LPCM through HDMI. The only reason for the Dolby TrueHD decoding built in is for blu-ray movies.
Correct. Also, it is possible for games to have pre-rendered movies pre-encoded in TrueHD as well.

So when playing PS3 games via HDMI, it will output them in LPCM audio. This is neither Dolby TrueHD or DTS HD-MA. So what will my receiver recognize this audio signal as? Obviously it is a digital signal since it is coming in thru HDMI, so I should be able to use PLIIx and bass management options on it.
A receiver that accepts HDMI audio, like the new Pioneer Elite series (I own the 84 model), will recognize a multichannel LPCM signal as "PCM [whatever is the sampling rate]kHz." The receiver may just read "PCM." I have my HD DVD player connected to my receiver via HDMI, and my receiver reads "PCM 96kHz," since the advanced audio codecs are decoded and re-sampled at 96kHz by the player before output.

Most, if not all receivers that accept HDMI audio will apply bass management, EQ, calibration, PLIIx, and other settings to the multichannel LPCM signal.

So do the PS3 games have to have support for LPCM in order for the PS3 to output LPCM? (that was the root of my Xbox question about the games supporting Dolby Digital). What I was asking was, why do all the Xbox 360 games advertise Dolby Digital on the case? Does the game itself have to support Dolby Digital in order for the 360 to encode it as such?
I would think any game can output multichannel LPCM, since it is just a raw output of audio.

I believe the "Dolby Digital" logos on games mean that they include a Dolby Digital soundtrack for in-game movies, and/or are played back on a console that encodes the audio into Dolby Digital. The 360 will encode anything into Dolby Digital, so games don't have to be specially made for such compatibility. Of course, developers probably do spend time making sure that their game sounds great after the encoding process.

ALSO--Does my receiver have to have HDMI 1.3 to receive LPCM?
No. You just need HDMI 1.1. Also, remember that when a player decodes a codec like TrueHD internally, it outputs the decoded audio as an LPCM signal.

How is this so?
Through a software update and processing by the CELL. Just an assumption on my part.

No problem.


Correct. Also, it is possible for games to have pre-rendered movies pre-encoded in TrueHD as well.


A receiver that accepts HDMI audio, like the new Pioneer Elite series (I own the 84 model), will recognize a multichannel LPCM signal as "PCM [whatever is the sampling rate]kHz." The receiver may just read "PCM." I have my HD DVD player connected to my receiver via HDMI, and my receiver reads "PCM 96kHz," since the advanced audio codecs are decoded and re-sampled at 96kHz by the player before output.

Most, if not all receivers that accept HDMI audio will apply bass management, EQ, calibration, PLIIx, and other settings to the multichannel LPCM signal.


I would think any game can output multichannel LPCM, since it is just a raw output of audio.

I believe the "Dolby Digital" logos on games mean that the games includes a Dolby Digital soundtrack for movies and the like, and/or are played back on a console that encodes audio into Dolby Digital. The 360 will encode pretty much anything into Dolby Digital, so games don't have to be specially made for such compatibility. Of course, developers probably do spend time making sure that their game sounds great after the encoding process.


No. You just need HDMI 1.1. Also, remember that when a player decodes a codec like TrueHD internally, it outputs the decoded audio as an LPCM signal.


Through a software update and processing by the CELL. Just an assumption on my part.Dude, you're awesome. So how much do I owe you? ;)

I think these are the last questions:A receiver that accepts HDMI audio, like the new Pioneer Elite series (I own the 84 model), will recognize a multichannel LPCM signal as "PCM [whatever is the sampling rate]kHz." The receiver may just read "PCM." I have my HD DVD player connected to my receiver via HDMI, and my receiver reads "PCM 96kHz," since the advanced audio codecs are decoded and re-sampled at 96kHz by the player before output.Which HD-DVD player do you own? I would assume it is the HD-A1/XA1. Does your player have 96 kHz/24-bit LPCM capabilities? I know it can't output that with HD-DVD's, because it doesn't encode them, it only decodes them from TrueHD or DD+ or whatever. Is the audio of HD-DVD's 24-bit and 96 khz?

Will the PS3 LPCM audio be 24-bit 96 khz LPCM over HDMI? It sounds like 24-bit 96 khz LPCM is the absolute best audio quality you can get.

Do most receivers accept 96Khz 24-bit LPCM over HDMI?

Is the only reason Xbox 360 doesn't output LPCM because there is no HDMI? So in theory, if it adds HDMI, that should add LPCM support? Or does the game's audio have to be put on the disc in LPCM format in order for it to be output in LPCM? Isn't the audio on the game already somewhat compressed so that it can all fit on the disc?

BTW, I thought Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD-MA were uncompressed. I thought lossless = uncompressed. No?

Dude, you're awesome. So how much do I owe you? ;)
A bagel with cream cheese sounds good.

I think these are the last questions:Which HD-DVD player do you own? I would assume it is the HD-A1/XA1. Does your player have 96 kHz/24-bit LPCM capabilities? I know it can't output that with HD-DVD's, because it doesn't encode them, it only decodes them from TrueHD or DD+ or whatever. What is the bit rate/Khz of HD-DVD's audio?
I have the HD-A1. Yes, the player upsamples the decoded audio of the advanced audio codecs from HD DVD discs to 96kHz/24-bits. Some HD DVDs are encoded in 48/16 with DD+ or TrueHD, while others are encoded in 48/24 with DD+. I don't believe any 48/24 TrueHD encodes have been made yet. Most new films are mastered in 48/24, so this type of audio encode is preferable. The upsampling in the HD DVD player is done by the player's audio mixer, where other sounds are processed on-the-fly along with the decoded audio, like menu button sounds.

Will the PS3 LPCM audio be 24-bit 96 khz LPCM over HDMI? It sounds like 24-bit 96 khz LPCM is the absolute best audio quality you can get.
I couldn't tell you what sampling and bit rate the PS3's audio is. 96/24 is not always the best when it takes re-sampling to achieve this. Based on my experience with PC games, games are usually 44/16. If games are in 44/16, a straight output of 44/16 via HDMI would be optimal.

Do most receivers accept 96Khz 24-bit LPCM over HDMI?
Most, if not all receivers that accept HDMI audio accept 96/24 LPCM audio.

Is the only reason Xbox 360 doesn't output LPCM because there is no HDMI? So in theory, if it adds HDMI, that should add LPCM support? Or does the game's audio have to be put on the disc in LPCM format in order for it to be output in LPCM? Isn't the audio on the game already somewhat compressed so that it can all fit on the disc?
Current game consoles output LPCM, but only in two channels because of the limitations of consumer-grade SPDIF. Dolby Digital Live is good for allowing multichannel discrete audio within the realm of SPDIF. The HDMI interface expands LPCM audio to 7.1 support at higher sampling rates. When discussing the term "uncompressed" in the context of our conversation, it means that what is on the disc is what is heard directly in LPCM, and not through lossy Dolby Digital.

BTW, I thought Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD-MA were uncompressed. I thought lossless = uncompressed. No?
No. They are lossless compression methods. Dolby Digital is one of the lossy compression methods.

Most, if not all receivers that accept HDMI audio accept 96/24 LPCM audio.But do they automatically upconvert the signal if it is, say 48/16? So, again, does the PS3 have to read 96/24 from the source in order for it to encode it that way? Like if the game was recorded at 48/18, would the PS3 still upconvert it to 96/24?

But do they automatically upconvert the signal if it is, say 48/16? So, again, does the PS3 have to read 96/24 from the source in order for it to encode it that way? Like if the game was recorded at 48/18, would the PS3 still upconvert it to 96/24?
No. Receivers should output whatever they accept. If it is sent 48kHz audio, that's what it outputs. If it receives 88.2kHz audio, that's what it should output. The PS3 could resample audio before sending it, but there is no reason for it to do so. No one knows yet how the PS3 handles different sampling rates.

No. Receivers should output whatever they accept. If it is sent 48kHz audio, that's what it outputs. If it receives 88.2kHz audio, that's what it should output. The PS3 could resample audio before sending it, but there is no reason for it to do so. No one knows yet how the PS3 handles different sampling rates.

So it does matter to the PS3 whether the game's audio was recorded at 48/16 or 96/24? I'm asking is the audio recorded in a certain way on the disc?

In theory, when/if the 360 gets HDMI, could it not output LPCM, or does it have to have built-in support for that?

So it does matter to the PS3 whether the game's audio was recorded at 48/16 or 96/24? I'm asking is the audio recorded in a certain way on the disc?

In theory, when/if the 360 gets HDMI, could it not output LPCM, or does it have to have built-in support for that?
Game audio can be mixed at any reasonable sampling rate. The highest sampling rate for most of today's game engines is 44kHz. I doubt we will see games mixed in 96kHz anytime soon. Higher sampling rates require more system resources.

Everything said about the 360 with regards to true HDMI support is pure speculation, and it's support by the 360 is unlikely given regulations for HDMI connection type. It's within HDMI specification to support LPCM audio. That's all anyone can say.

Why don't the HD-DVD's have LPCM audio? With 30gb of space...you'd think that would be plenty.

The TX-SR604 says "192kHz/24-bit DACs for all channels". What does that mean?

Why don't the HD-DVD's have LPCM audio? With 30gb of space...you'd think that would be plenty.
Raw PCM audio tracks are very space-consuming, and take away the ability to add other things to a disc, like extras. Sony's Blu-Ray transfers have PCM audio tracks, and this often facilitates movie extras being dropped from the disc.

While HD DVD discs have 5 extra GB to work with compared to single-layer BD discs, the HD DVD format has less bandwidth. A PCM audio track and VC-1 video encode would probably be too high of bandwidth at peak moments.

In my opinion, other than wider compatibility, there is no point whatsoever in using space-consuming PCM when you can encode in lossless compression. Fox realized this and will include a 48/24 DTS-HD MA track on most of its Blu-Ray transfers. If people cannot decode the lossless layer, then they get the DTS-HD or core DTS layer, which obviously doesn't sound bad.

The TX-SR604 says "192kHz/24-bit DACs for all channels". What does that mean?
Before amplification, audio goes through digital-to-analog conversion (DAC). The DACs in that receiver are 192/24, which is the highest among receivers today. However, that doesn't mean the quality of the DACs is among the best with regards to signal-to-noise ratio (SNR), etc. Read more on DACs here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital-to-analog_converter).

Raw PCM audio tracks are very space-consuming, and take away the ability to add other things to a disc, like extras. Sony's Blu-Ray transfers have PCM audio tracks, and this often facilitates movie extras being dropped from the disc.

While HD DVD discs have 5 extra GB to work with compared to single-layer BD discs, the HD DVD format has less bandwidth. A PCM audio track and VC-1 video encode would probably be too high of bandwidth at peak moments.

In my opinion, other than wider compatibility, there is no point whatsoever in using space-consuming PCM when you can encode in lossless compression. Fox realized this and will include a 48/24 DTS-HD MA track on most of its Blu-Ray transfers. If people cannot decode the lossless layer, then they get the DTS-HD or core DTS layer, which obviously doesn't sound bad.


Before amplification, audio goes through digital-to-analog conversion (DAC). The DACs in that receiver are 192/24, which is the highest among receivers today. However, that doesn't mean the quality of the DACs is among the best with regards to signal-to-noise ratio (SNR), etc. Read more on DACs here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital-to-analog_converter).Does it mean it will convert all signals to 192/24?

What is the difference in PCM and LPCM?

What format are standard audio CD's recorded in?

Also, why don't blu-ray discs use LPCM?

What is the difference in PCM and LPCM?
I used them in the same context. PCM is a digital signal and is the standard for many forms of audio delivery. CD players, PC sound cards, game consoles like the PS2, etc., all output two-channel PCM audio. As I mentioned earlier, HDMI introduced a digital option for consumers where 7.1 PCM audio can be transmitted from the source component. A receiver converts all other audio to PCM before the DAC process. One exception is when DACs have Direct Stream Digital (DSD, which is the audio format for SACD discs) support and take DSD audio directly through the DAC process.

What format are standard audio CD's recorded in?
Redbook CDs are encoded in 44.1/16 two-channel PCM.

Also, why don't blu-ray discs use LPCM?
As I mentioned, Sony's transfers use PCM, but other studios forgo this option because it takes too much space. This is especially a problem when the video is encoded in MPEG2, and more space needs to be allocated towards the video. Dual-layer discs will fix this problem, but some other studios still see the value in using lossless compression. I personally like the idea of Fox using DTS-HD MA for movies mastered in 48/24, rather than truncating the master to 48/16 and providing raw PCM. While one Blu-Ray disc does have a 48/24 PCM track, this takes up even more space than 48/16 PCM, and hurts the ability to provide extras on a 25GB disc.

What kind of sound will the PS3 output when playing PS2 or PS1 games?

Can HDMI 1.1 support Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD-MA?

What kind of sound will the PS3 output when playing PS2 or PS1 games?
Two-channel PCM. I'm not sure if the console allows a Dolby Digital encode of PS1 and PS2 audio, but it would be pointless considering the games are coded only in two-channel to begin with.

Can HDMI 1.1 support Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD-MA?
Come on Rocko, read what I and others in the past have said numerous times. If the source component decodes the codecs (e.g., PS3 and HD DVD player decoding multichannel TrueHD), they then send a multichannel LPCM signal to the receiver after the decoding process. So yes, a receiver with HDMI 1.1 inputs that accept LPCM audio will accept TrueHD, and any other codec, that has been decoded into LPCM by the source component.

MSmith83

I made the mistake of picking up Pioneer VSX 1016 over the weekend for use with my PS3(when they eventually release it here in the UK).

I figured it had HDMI pass-through so that must include audio(otherwise whats the point?) only to read on these hallowed pages that it can only handle video.

In an attempt to future-proof, I have in fact hobbled myself and am hoping the retailer will accept it back.(I was quite clear of my requirements when I bought it).

Apart from the lack of HDMI audio support I'm loving it and the remote works with all my other Pio kit(I have the house that Pioneer built).

I was wondering if you could recommend a Pio rcvr that will definitely support HDMI audio from my PS3 and any future HD movie player I buy subsequently?

I'm on a budget and have had a look at the VSX 2016 but once again, none of the literature available seems particulatly specific on this point.

Please Obi Wan, only you can save me :D

No. Receivers should output whatever they accept. If it is sent 48kHz audio, that's what it outputs. If it receives 88.2kHz audio, that's what it should output. The PS3 could resample audio before sending it, but there is no reason for it to do so. No one knows yet how the PS3 handles different sampling rates.So why does the HD-A1 upsample everything to 196/24? Can't that cause audio degradation? Or does the HD-A1 do it perfectly so no audio degradation is caused?

So why does the HD-A1 upsample everything to 196/24? Can't that cause audio degradation? Or does the HD-A1 do it perfectly so no audio degradation is caused?
As I said earlier, the HD-A1's audio mixer sends everything at 96kHz via HDMI for HD DVD audio. Nowhere was 192/24 mentioned. I'm not aware of the quality of its DSP processing and there is nothing to really compare it to right now, so I cannot comment on the level of degradation that occurs.

I should change my statement that you quoted. Receivers do upsample to the specification of their DACs' sample rate. So, two sampling conversions are done before the DAC stage when sending a 96kHz signal from the HD-A1.

EDIT: I just remembered that the HD-A1 has four SHARC DSP chips by Analog Devices. These are regarded as good quality.

MSmith83

I made the mistake of picking up Pioneer VSX 1016 over the weekend for use with my PS3(when they eventually release it here in the UK).

I figured it had HDMI pass-through so that must include audio(otherwise whats the point?) only to read on these hallowed pages that it can only handle video.

In an attempt to future-proof, I have in fact hobbled myself and am hoping the retailer will accept it back.(I was quite clear of my requirements when I bought it).

Apart from the lack of HDMI audio support I'm loving it and the remote works with all my other Pio kit(I have the house that Pioneer built).

I was wondering if you could recommend a Pio rcvr that will definitely support HDMI audio from my PS3 and any future HD movie player I buy subsequently?

I'm on a budget and have had a look at the VSX 2016 but once again, none of the literature available seems particulatly specific on this point.

Please Obi Wan, only you can save me :D
Wow. I missed your question. :)

Yeah, a lot of people bought the 1016 thinking it accepts HDMI audio, but were later dismayed that it doesn't. If you want a new model Pioneer receiver with HDMI audio, the cheapest would be the Elite VSX-81TXV. It's probably a bit above your price range.

Wow. I missed your question. :)

Yeah, a lot of people bought the 1016 thinking it accepts HDMI audio, but were later dismayed that it doesn't. If you want a new model Pioneer receiver with HDMI audio, the cheapest would be the Elite VSX-81TXV. It's probably a bit above your price range.


Is that the HDMI audio receiver period? I'm looking to get a receiver that will somewhat support the PS3. :rolleyes:

Is that the HDMI audio receiver period? I'm looking to get a receiver that will somewhat support the PS3. :rolleyes:
I don't quite follow you. He wanted to know of a Pioneer receiver that accepts PCM audio via HDMI.

I don't quite follow you. He wanted to know of a Pioneer receiver that accepts PCM audio via HDMI.

Well I'm looking to upgrade my receiver to one that has HDMI switching. I came across a Sony that does but just about all the reviews say it does not pass audio. Also found a Yamaha that claimed the same only with reviews stating otherwise.

I quess my question is this, is there a receiver that will pass audio via HDMI in the $700 - $800 range? Something that will play nice with the PS3?

Check out Denon. I'm getting the 3806.