something that I can use to capture hd signal over component to put on my pc and then convert it for widescreen dvd. I currently have a canopus advc-100 but am not happy with the quality any longer since I got a big screen. any recommendations, it can be pci, firewaire, whatever, just something that is easy and reliable to use. Thanks alot.

budget? may be much more important than easy and reliable to use.

what "hd signal" are you trying to capture?

budget really doesnt matter. I mean I dont want to spend like thousands of dollars but you know, like maybe 300-500. but less is always better. what I would like to do is come out of the component out of my dish dvr and go into the device.

check out the HTPC area they will have a lot of recommendations...I almost bought an OnAir device until I found a Sony HDTV DVR at a price I couldn't pass up.

budget really doesnt matter. I mean I dont want to spend like thousands of dollars but you know, like maybe 300-500. but less is always better. what I would like to do is come out of the component out of my dish dvr and go into the device.

Any hardware that can capture uncompressed HDTV is going to be in the thousands. Then you need to store that data which is in the terabytes for a 2hr movie.

It can be done but not for under $20K all in.

Allow me to make some clarifications here. Im a professional documentary editor and work with both SD and HD.

Two points:

1) if all you want is a standard def 16x9 (anamorphic) widescreen DVD, then you dont have to capture an HD signal at all. Here is my workflow where I do EXACTLY what you are looking for:

A) Set your HD-DVR to output a down-converted anamorphic (squeezed) signal out the S-video standard def output. My Dish VIP-622 can do this in a menu setting.

B) connect to a DV camera or DV converter box (set for S-video input) and connect the FireWire to your computer (in my case a Macintosh)

C) open a video editing program that can capture and tag an anamorphic DV movie. I use Final Cut Pro, but iMovie may work as well.

D) capture the footage as an anamorphic DV QuickTime clip. These are about 12 Gigabytes an hour.

F) open the movie in QuickTime Pro ($30) and use the Command-J keyboard shortcut to open a control panel. Change the visual settings from 720x480 to 854x480. Save and close. This un-squeezed the anamorphic image.

G) use iDVD 6 to make a "widescreen" DVD and pop in your QuickTime file. And then burn!

Your DVD will look great! It will be a letterbox on a SDTV and will fill the frame properly on an HDTV if the DVD player is set up properly.

This works. I do it all of the time.

2) Glimmie may not have known about this, but you can buy an HD component capture card from Blackmagic or AJA for between $1000 and $1500 for your PC or Mac. You can then capture to the DVC-PRO HD codec at around 12-14 MB a second. Its compressed, but not nearly as bad as MPEG-2 or 4. And you do not need super fast RAIDs to capture this footage. Use Final Cut Pro for this on a Mac.


This works.

-Christopher

$249 for the Intensity (http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/) card. It will be released on Oct. 15th, according to the press release (http://www.blackmagic-design.com/press/detail.asp?pressID=88).

It can capture HDMI. Although it cannot capture component directly, there are ways to convert component to HDMI first. For example, there are A/V receivers (by Denon, Yamaha, etc) that can do the conversion.

UPDATE: The Denon AVR3806 receiver always encrypts with HDCP when it converts from component to HDMI, so the Intensity card cannot capture HDMI from it.

$249 for the Intensity (http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/) card. It will be released on Oct. 15th, according to the press release (http://www.blackmagic-design.com/press/detail.asp?pressID=88).

It can capture HDMI. Although it cannot capture component directly, there are ways to convert component to HDMI first. For example, there are A/V receivers (by Denon, Yamaha, etc) that can do the conversion.

Right but be careful, the Intensity card may require a tag in the signal that says "its OK to record this HDMI signal", and that converter may not add that tag.

Also, i dont want your post to mislead the original poster, he can still get the $1000 version with Component in right now and it will work.

-Christopher

Allow me to make some clarifications here. Im a professional documentary editor and work with both SD and HD.

2) Glimmie may not have known about this, but you can buy an HD component capture card from Blackmagic or AJA for between $1000 and $1500 for your PC or Mac. You can then capture to the DVC-PRO HD codec at around 12-14 MB a second. Its compressed, but not nearly as bad as MPEG-2 or 4. And you do not need super fast RAIDs to capture this footage. Use Final Cut Pro for this on a Mac.


This works.

-Christopher

I thought those cards take in HDSDI. You will need an Aanlog to digital convertor to feed it which will cost aboy $2500. Also you will need storage to buffer the compression engine. You usally need to input the entire project as HD then compress it.

Or do these cards do DVCpro in real time. If so, then it's a lot more cost effective.

Hi,

Yeah, they do analog component input as well AND convert to DVCPRO-HD on the fly. Amazing, huh? You dont have to touch uncompressed huge files at all. Very slick.

So lets see:
Mac tower with PCIe slots: $2500
HD capture card: $1000
Final Cut Pro software: $1000 (Blackmagic or AJA might have their own capture tool, so u may not need FCP)
600GB FW hard drive $ 450

So, yeah, it costs money, but not as much as first reported here. Hopefully you can use this set-up for work for it to make sense. I use mine for documentary editing.

Wow...that DeckLink card looks amazing. I've got the Mac and the massive storage available---might have to look at this option. :D

Yeah, they do analog component input as well AND convert to DVCPRO-HD on the fly.
Which card does both?

The AJA XENA LH (http://www.aja.com/html/products_windows_xena_LHe.html) has HD analog input, but it does not mention DVCPRO-HD.

The Blackmagic Design DeckLink HD (http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/hd/) can do DVCPRO-HD, but it does not mention HD analog input (although it mentions SD analog input).

:confused:

I've looked over the docs and the Blackmagic support board at creative cow and from the posts I'm reading it can most definitely capture HD analog. Plenty of talk there about capturing 720p and 1080i (from an xbox 360 of all things :D )

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/connections/index.asp?prodID=18

The breakout cable on the Blackmagic card has the analog HD component connectors for both input and output.

AJA only captures uncompressed.

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/connections/index.asp?prodID=18

The breakout cable on the Blackmagic card has the analog HD component connectors for both input and output.

AJA only captures uncompressed.

The DeckLink cards require a converter like the AJA HD10A to capture HD analog component video. The breakout cable is only SD.

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/hd/specs/

The DeckLink cards require a converter like the AJA HD10A to capture HD analog component video. The breakout cable is only SD.

http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/hd/specs/
That's exactly what I thought.

So there still does not appear to be any card that does both HD analog input and compression (such as DVCPRO-HD).

Damn. So ~$800.00 for a HD10A (or 890.00 for an HD10AVA--add analog audio) plus 1K for the card. Assuming one has the other necessary parts it's not too bad---way less than I originally thought!

Might have to consider going Gefen Component to HDMI then into the upcoming Blackmagic Intensity for alot less money (200+250.00). But seems like the other route would give me so much more functionality.

Right but be careful, the Intensity card may require a tag in the signal that says "its OK to record this HDMI signal", and that converter may not add that tag.

Also, i dont want your post to mislead the original poster, he can still get the $1000 version with Component in right now and it will work.

-Christopher

Christopher, have you seen a web site that suggests the Intensity might need a flag set to record? I'd understand that a HDMI signal that is encrypted won't record, but I'm wondering if someone has forced another flag into the Intensity card?

Hi

So of course, the Intensity card can record any stream from any device that output dvi or hdmi. But, as the tech support from Blackmagic confirm me, if the provider put a encrypted code in a channel, this one will be be able to be recorded. So use a hdcp remover at about an another 400$.

Unless you have a high def disk recorder, expensive media, and player and you want to archive whatever you've captured you still have to down convert and re-encode the content anyway (I guess you could put it on tape) So right now for aprox 3500$ (pretty close to the cost off all those hi def disk/hdd combo players they've announced or released in Japan) you can capture and get it into a computer but what do you do with it then? I've had very good results outputting an HD recording from the S-Video out on the sony hdd250 to a pioneer DVR, editing out the commercials on the hard drive and recording it to dvd-r. The quality is easily DVD. Somebody educate me on the upside of cobbling together a system to do it on the cheap if you don't work with hi def video for a living..

Because the Toshiba HD-DVD player can play HD content that's recorded to a regular DVD-DL.

See here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=705146

Two notes tonight. I believe there might be some confusion in the above posts.

1) The questions about the cards: BOTH Blackmagic and AJA make cards that record uncompressed, OR DVCPRO-HD, or even other codecs. And they BOTH do it by digital SDI and *analog component*. I am sure of this. Here are the models and prices.

AJA Kona 2, AJA Kona 3, and AJA Kona LH, all for around $1500.

Blackmagic Decklink Extreme $1000

I have worked with both lines of these cards on G5 Macs and I can tell you they do analog HD recording out of the box. And they record to DVCPRO-HD on the fly to normal speed hard drives. I swear on my mother's life.

2.) The "usability" of this system is in question. Well, it can be used just like a DVR (without the remote) if the computer is within cable length of your HDTV. I use Final Cut Pro and just hit the space bar to play and stop. It goes right out to the HDTV over beautiful component. No transcoding. No converting files. Just native playback to HDTV right after recording. One of the Blackmagic cards even now has HDMI outputs and analog inputs!

-Christopher

Oh and about using the Blackmagic Intensity card with a third party Component to HDMI converter box? Someone here do it and report back and tell us if you can record all your HD channels. Would love to hear a real-world report on this. I have only heard speculation in other discussions that the card wants to see a flag that says "I have my protection switch turned to off".

I wish it would work. That would be under $500 for both items, I think.

-Christopher

Sorry, point me to somewhere on the Blackmagic site that specifically says the Decklink HD Extreme will capture HD component video. I'm just not seeing it. They seem to be very good at juxtaposing mention of 10 bit HD SDI capture with analog capture without any detail on the analog side. 12 bit YUV component capture does not mean HD. I'm not saying it can't, I'm just skeptical.

Ask you shall receive: http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/hd/specs/

These analog inputs are how people are capturing HDV footage and turning into DVCPRO-HD on the fly. Many prefer editing in the DVCPRO-HD codec over HDV because it behaves better and has a higher color-space.

-Christopher

Hey Rcrach, you are right to be skeptical. There is an almost sheepishness to Blackmagic saying "Component-HD Inputs" in one sentence, but here are some more links, some written by acquaintances of Grant Petty, owner of Blackmagic, as well as actual users of the card who are using it for just that -- and in serious production.

Here are the links. And thanks for keeping me sharp!

http://www.digitalproductionbuzz.com/news.php?newsid=823

http://livefromnab.com/articles/publish/article_1187.shtml

http://www.bosfcpug.org/beta/images/stories/events/SIGGRAPH06/decklink_hd_extreme.pdf

http://www.presentationmaster.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=39966

http://forums.creativecow.net/cgi-bin/new_read_post.cgi?univpostid=863265&forumid=124&postid=863280&pview=t (this is about the card that is a hybrid between the Intensity card and the HD-Extreme card -- which maybe what we want here anyway)

-Christopher

Thanks Christopher,

It really didn't make sense that Blackmagic wouldn't keep the arms race going after AJA released the Xena. Now if one of them would include hardware based HD encoding at a consumer level price point (I'm thinking the ATEME AVC chipset boiled down to one SOC) I'd be buying, but that's probably at least a year away and by that time we should start seeing the combo style recorders selling in Japan released in the US (MPAA willing). Talman's link was interesting but way too cumbersome to get 2 hrs of HD on 3 double layer disks. Since I'm not a content creator just an enduser, putting a PC in the loop to archive stuff in real time from television is just overkill.

Rick

If you only want to do DVD then just get a (standard-def) TV-capture card like the Happauge or ATIs. $75-$150. You don't need Hi-Def, in fact it will be a huge waste if you're only outputting to DVD.

Interesting thread though. I looked into doing this very thing about 6 months ago but decided it wasn't worth the hassle, or the expense. So I went and got a $9 Firewire cable instead. Can't record 5c protected programs (not yet, common Vista!) but it takes a little pressure off the Comast DVR's tiny 120gb'er.

Right, that downrezzed HD makes very very good SD. And if you can figure out the right settings in your DVR box and your DVD authoring program, you can make nice anamorphic widescreen DVDs, which can look better than just plain ol' letterbox on your HDTV.

Has anyone got the Intensity card yet? I like the idea of using component to HDMI and just capture it via Intensity for the computer. Maybe I can finally play console games on my PC monitor w/o much issues.

Oh and about using the Blackmagic Intensity card with a third party Component to HDMI converter box? Someone here do it and report back and tell us if you can record all your HD channels. Would love to hear a real-world report on this. I have only heard speculation in other discussions that the card wants to see a flag that says "I have my protection switch turned to off".

I wish it would work. That would be under $500 for both items, I think.

-Christopher

This is the big problem I have.

There are people on AVS that for years that have said they want to do this regardless of cost, yet with a cost supposedly under the $2k mark now, I find it somewhat puzzling that no one has actually done it in a HTPC system in real world settings - which makes me even more skeptical.

Has anyone got the Intensity card yet? I like the idea of using component to HDMI and just capture it via Intensity for the computer. Maybe I can finally play console games on my PC monitor w/o much issues.

Havent heard anything yet.

Here is a guy recording full HD Xbox games, via component HD inputs, with the $1500 card from Aja.

http://www.silverado.cc/xbox.html

-Christopher

This is the big problem I have.

There are people on AVS that for years that have said they want to do this regardless of cost, yet with a cost supposedly under the $2k mark now, I find it somewhat puzzling that no one has actually done it in a HTPC system in real world settings - which makes me even more skeptical.

I've been doing it for the past few months with the HD Extreme via component, but it's a rather involving process. It works fine for archiving a few HD movies every week, but for day-to-day timeshifting, I go with my 8300HD.

Has anyone got the Intensity card yet? I like the idea of using component to HDMI and just capture it via Intensity for the computer. Maybe I can finally play console games on my PC monitor w/o much issues.

I've been looking everywhere for them but they just aren't released yet. The guys at Melrose Mac are probably getting sick of me asking them. According to them, Blackmagic is notorious for late shipping/release of their products and they never tell anyone when a product is available until they actually have it in their hands.

Apparently I'm a newb and cant post URL's, go to froogle.

I saw 2 listed for $237.

I'm looking at the $1600 card from AJA for my Mac, named the Kona Lh. Fortunately I need it for work (editing HD documentaries) and can use it for occasional archiving of HD-DVR material over analog Component. The DVCPRO-HD codec, which I use, runs at about 12MB a sec vs. regular DV which runs at around 4MB a sec.

The card is overkill for just TV, but it can be a good second duty for it.

Havent heard anything yet.

Here is a guy recording full HD Xbox games, via component HD inputs, with the $1500 card from Aja.

http://www.silverado.cc/xbox.html

-Christopher


that is so amazing. so if one were to lock a cable HD box at lets say, 720p, then use that process you could make your own archives of stuff via component, and alleviate the whole transport stream/firewire issues.

Chris my question for you since you have a lot of knowledge in this field, whats the maximum bandwidth these cards can support in a real world environment, neither site lists a maximum bandwidth as far as I could see.

Does it even matter for analog? :confused:

My fear is that those new G5's far exceed my rig and would be the hindering factor in trying something like this, since as far as I knew when I first looked into all this 7-8 months ago the only answer I got was "spend about $25,000 to do an on the fly transfer since its converting from analog back to digital, your computer isn't fast enough."etc etc etc

Is it simply the hardware found in these cards is specialized and efficient enough to perform these tasks adequately, to quote an example what Creative did years ago with dxr2 pci dvd decoder cards before computers were fast enough to decode the mpeg2???

Because that would be amazing!! (i loved my old dxr2 with my celeron 400)

Essentially I have methods of using 3-4 pass x264 encodes to make 720p quality movies that exceed the quality of the dvds I already own, and remain at about ~5 gb or so, keeping 5.1 etc.

basically taking a ts stream with these specs:

Video; 1920x1080/25 ~19.68Mbit/s
Audio; AC3 5.1 ~384Kbit/s

and lowering the bitrate, doing a progressive conversion and changing the resolution to 1280x720p.... all without a major sacrifice in quality, like a dvd5 hd-dvd of sorts... Naturally side by side, the sources are superior, the same holds true for blu ray and hd-dvd, but for my purposes its perfect.

Given the native res of my home theater at 720p, people think I own an hdtv DVR but its really these encodes streaming off an htpc via dvi. The real problem is my sanyo projector is NOT truly hdcp compliant so I may not be able to run hd-dvd or bluray with it, so this is something that greatly interests me since it would allow me to upgrade some of the dvds I already own with high def counterparts, and somewhat dance around hdcp until I can afford the projector upgrade.

Anyway, I'm totally babbling, my question is would a windows machine given these specs:

amd 3500+
1 gb ddr400
nvidia 7600 gs 512mb
7200 rpm hdd non raid

or if i use my main:

4400+ x2
2gb ddr4
raptor 10k rpm raid0


Plus one of those two cards you've suggested be powerful enough to get this done? Or is the magic ingredient really those beefy g5's....

Thanks,
-Mike

One word:
Intel

that is so amazing. so if one were to lock a cable HD box at lets say, 720p, then use that process you could make your own archives of stuff via component, and alleviate the whole transport stream/firewire issues.

[SNIP]

, my question is would a windows machine given these specs:

amd 3500+
1 gb ddr400
nvidia 7600 gs 512mb
7200 rpm hdd non raid

or if i use my main:

4400+ x2
2gb ddr4
raptor 10k rpm raid0


Plus one of those two cards you've suggested be powerful enough to get this done? Or is the magic ingredient really those beefy g5's....

Thanks,
-Mike

Ok several questions:

- The card I use from AJA does the real work, but the minimum cpu I can use is a two year old G5 (the Dual 2GHZ G5 with more than a gig of ram). You can find a used one on Craig's list for around $1600 without the card. But I couldnt comment about the PC requirements. I suggest the AJA web site which has that info for sure.

- On the Mac the HD choices are:

HDV at 5MB/sec
DVCPRO-HD at 12MB/sec
Uncompresed-HD at (are you ready for this?) 250MB/sec

The first two can be used with normal hard drives. The last requires enormous fast RAID arrays. Those first two play back flawlessly.

So you would be TRANSCODING on the fly while capturing the Component output of your HD-DVR. HDV is OK but I think DVCPRO-HD is less likely to show generation loss.

This is no trick. Pros have to use the Blackmagic and AJA cards every day to do real work. They work solidly as advertised.

Right now the Component hole is the only way to demonstrate our true Fair Play rights for archiving TV shows that we have legitimately paid to watch already.

Sad.
-Christopher

One word:
Intel


of course theres better, there always is.

nature of the beast. :p

the question was would this work...

Ok several questions:

- The card I use from AJA does the real work, but the minimum cpu I can use is a two year old G5 (the Dual 2GHZ G5 with more than a gig of ram). You can find a used one on Craig's list for around $1600 without the card. But I couldnt comment about the PC requirements. I suggest the AJA web site which has that info for sure.

- On the Mac the HD choices are:

HDV at 5MB/sec
DVCPRO-HD at 12MB/sec
Uncompresed-HD at (are you ready for this?) 250MB/sec

The first two can be used with normal hard drives. The last requires enormous fast RAID arrays. Those first two play back flawlessly.

So you would be TRANSCODING on the fly while capturing the Component output of your HD-DVR. HDV is OK but I think DVCPRO-HD is less likely to show generation loss.

This is no trick. Pros have to use the Blackmagic and AJA cards every day to do real work. They work solidly as advertised.

Right now the Component hole is the only way to demonstrate our true Fair Play rights for archiving TV shows that we have legitimately paid to watch already.

Sad.
-Christopher

you nailed it, thats what I'll find out. Ill starting trolling video editing forums and probably call them directly as well to get more info about the PC specs.

i suspect it requires more raw bandwidth then i can sustain here, but I'll find out for sure.

thanks for the reply.
-Mike

The card does DVCPro encoding, sending the result over pci-x or pci-express.
There is no point in getting a mac for this, especially since all the AJA/Blackmagic cards in question support either system.

Anyhow, as far as I know, either PCI-X or PCI-Express is a requirement, so unless your PC has that, its time to upgrade to Intel.

Anyhow, as far as I know, either PCI-X or PCI-Express is a requirement, so unless your PC has that, its time to upgrade to Intel.

the brand of cpu has nothing to do with this discussion at all. amd can do just as well as intel. but AJA requires TWO server strength cpus and a lot of hard drive bandwidth to make things work in a windows environment.

For the record, my lowly Gigabyte GA-K8N Ultra-SLI:

Expansion Slots
1. 2 x PCI-Express X 16 slot, supports two PCI-Express interface Graphics cards with SLI mode
2. 2 x PCI-Express X 1 slots
3. 2 x PCI slots (PCI 2.3 compliant)

Perhpas I should buy an intel p4 machine of modest specs and then I'll have another machine incapable of doing this, but at least it'll be intel since that solves all problems aparently.

The object in question here is front side bus/cpu speed, and actual data bandwidth, which neither of my systems seem to meet according to AJA's faq.

so an entire PC would be needed. but amd opterons would do just fine, also interesting to note the cpu speed of the opterons needed is less as well.

All XENA Systems require:
• Windows XP 32bit SP2
• 74GB+ SATA or SCSI Boot drive
• DVD-Rom Dive
• 2 GB Ram
• nVidia Quadro FX PCIe Graphics card.

XENA LS—Standard Definition only
Note: This configuration does not support XENA LH or XENA 2K in any format.
HP XW4300 with Dual Core Proc
HP XW6200 Dual Processor

XENA LS, XENA LH and XENA 2K for 2K, HD and SD workflows
HP XW8200 with 2 physical 3.2 Ghz Xeon CPU's with an 800 MHz FSB
HP XW9300 with 2 physical Opteron 252 (2.6 Ghz+) CPU's with an 800 MHz FSB
Boxx 8200 with 2 physical 3.2 Ghz Xeon CPU's with an 800 MHz FSB
Boxx 7400 with 2 physical Opteron 252 (2.6 Ghz+) CPU's with an 800 MHz FSB

System Storage Requirements:
SD YUV / RGB:
3-4 Drive Single channel SATA or SCSI raid

HD YUV (Requires sustained 250-300 MB/s throughout):
4 - 6 Drive or 2 Channel U320 Adaptec 39320 SCSI card
2 Channel - 2 Gb Fiber channels

2K / HD RGB (Requires sustained 400-450 MB/s throughout):
8 - 10 Drive 2-4 Channel U320 Adaptec 39320 SCSI card*
2 Channel - 4Gb Fiber channel array
*Using multiple HBA’s is a common solution in high bandwidth workflows.


There is no point in getting a mac for this, especially since all the AJA/Blackmagic cards in question support either system.


Pretty stiff req's for windows. Seems the Mac option would be A TON cheaper since its requires much less horsepower.

It seems much better optimized for this task.

Of course all those numbers are for uncompressed.
DVCPro HD is I think 100Mbit ~12meg/second, so it doesnt really matter.
Even at 250Mbit (incase im wrong about 100), its still only 30megs/second even a single non-raid sata drive can handle that as sustained write rate.

The last requires enormous fast RAID arrays.
If you don't use a fast RAID array, it might still be possible to record uncompressed HD, but you would record it in multiple passes. For example, on the first pass you record only the top 180 lines of each frame (at ~20 MB/sec for 8-bit 4:2:2 1080i30), then on the next pass you record only the next 180 lines, and so on and so forth, until you have recorded all 1080 lines of each frame. Once the entire uncompressed recording is on the hard drive, you can compress it to just about any format (such as MPEG-2), which can be done in non-realtime so the CPU does not need to be fast.

DVCPro HD is only available on a Mac though, right?

Of course all those numbers are for uncompressed.
DVCPro HD is I think 100Mbit ~12meg/second, so it doesnt really matter.
Even at 250Mbit (incase im wrong about 100), its still only 30megs/second even a single non-raid sata drive can handle that as sustained write rate.

read the thing i quoted from the AJA site:

HD YUV (Requires sustained 250-300 MB/s throughout):
4 - 6 Drive or 2 Channel U320 Adaptec 39320 SCSI card
2 Channel - 2 Gb Fiber channels

MB/s = MegaBytes Per Second (not megabits!)

Transcoding is the only SANE way to accomplish this on normal hard drives.

Now, as for the hardware doing it on the fly, for the AJA card you basically need a blade/rackmount with pci-x on it, install this card with a decent size hard drive, and that would work, buts thats pretty expensive. (around $3500 depending on many factors)

However, I found a dual 1.8 G5 locally on craigslist for 1100 seems to be in good shape, that plus the aja card and possibly a hard drive upgrade would be enough to do it. much cheaper then a dual opteron setup through windows.

im curious about that blackmagic brand however, and what its requirements are...

i didnt check those yet.

from the Blackmagic Doumentation PDF

Storage and data rates for
uncompressed video

The data rates for uncompressed video are quite high, and listed below are
minimum recommended disk requirements for uncompressed standard
definition and high definition video.

Uncompressed 10 bit YUV (4:2:2)

Standard Definition
Frame Size MB per second MB per minute GB per hour
720x486/29.97fps 27 1 600 94
720x576/25fps 26 1 582 93

High Definition
Frame Size MB per second MB per minute GB per hour
1280x720p/60fps 141 8 438 494
1920x1080/24PsF 127 7 594 445
1920x1080/50i 132 7 910 463
1920x1080/60i 158 9 482 556

Uncompressed 10 bit RGB (4:4:4)
High Definition
Frame Size MB per second MB per minute GB per hour
1280x720p/60fps 211 12 656 742
1920x1080/24PsF 190 11 391 667
1920x1080/50i 198 11 865 695
1920x1080/60i 237 14 238 834

and heres the blackmagic decklink extreme's windows system req's also very stiff just like the AJA card.

Operating System
Microsoft Windows XP® Pro with service pack 1 or later
[Microsoft Windows 2000® and Server 2003 are not supported]

Hardware

Processor
• Intel Dual Xeon 2.8GHz or higher

Motherboard
• Intel 7505/7525 chipset – This includes motherboards such as Supermicro
X5DAE, X5DA8 and X6DA8 - G2

PCI slots
• 64 bit PCI-X slots 100MHz and 133MHz

Memory
• 2 GB ECC 2100 RAM

Graphics card
• AGP x 8 Graphics card (Not Matrox)
• PCI E x 16 (Nvidia FX1300)

Disk Arrays
• SCSI - Ultra 320 SCSI card (either PCI or onboard), with at least
8 x U320 SCSI disks, 10 000 rpm, software striped as RAID [0], OR;
• 2GB fibre Channel
• SCSI card recommendation - Adaptec 39320 series

Guys, Keep the posts and info coming! The subject and themes in this thread are EXACTLY what I'm hoping to do in 2007. I want the ultimate real-time "content builder" to feed my Media Server that can then stream archived content ( both HD and SD from TV) as well as archived DVD content.

From reading this entire thread and then following up the external links it's quite obvious that my goals are quite feasible from a technical, real-time capture and transcode pov. One problem however is that I don't want this to be a manual work flow, so for those of us donig HD capture from TV source we'lll also need DVR software tools that are "friendly" towards this real-time HD capture Hardware Chain.

Am I missing something regarding the DVR Software POV or is this in fact the last "link in the chain" still to be addressed?

bradesp

I wonder if the coming Apple "iTV" broadband box will be the 2nd half of the solution. The prototype has HDMI and component, but the word "High-Definition" was purposely left out of Job's demo.

Whilst I applaud the aims of recording HD material via the routes suggested here - it does strike me as a backwards step to have to decompress and recompress a highly compressed digital signal to another highly compressed format to make a recording, when all the bits of the original compressed stream are sitting there a few inches away.

Just seems crazy to either have to increase the space required to record the stream or reduce the quality.

Does anyone know if Vista + DRM + BluRay or HD-DVD are likely to allow copy protected recordings to be made in the future of TV Shows?

(In Japan 2nd Generation BluRay recorders are already being launched with integrated HD tuners for their HD OTA, BS and CS services. These are the devices that wil play pre-recorded BluRay media, as well as record on 25 and 50Gb blanks - NOT the original 1st generation Japanese boxes that were 25Gb recorders only - and won't play BluRay commercial discs)

Agreed. The need to do this is ridiculous.

Of course the FireWire/D-VHS route is the other way. But I'm not aware of that company (dont remember their name now) doing a mod to my Dish VIP-622 yet.

Agreed. The need to do this is ridiculous.

Of course the FireWire/D-VHS route is the other way. But I'm not aware of that company (dont remember their name now) doing a mod to my Dish VIP-622 yet.

I suspect mods will become increasingly difficult the more chipsets become integrated - meaning the decrypted transport streams required for USB/Firewire connectivity to a PC or D-VHS, or the decompressed HD component digital video required for HD-SDI output, will be impossible to "tee-off" from the PCB.

(Over here the first generation Sky+ SD PVR can be relatively easily modded to SDI output - as a parallel Y and Cr/Cb digital data stream can be found on pads on the main system board. The later models don't allow this video out of the chip - and contain integrated D/A converters... Similarly the first generation Pace Sky SD receivers could be persuaded to output a transport stream containing a decrypted video and audio stream via their otherwise unused digital interface slot - later models don't make this stream available unless authorised in software apparently)

By not allowing "fair use" of broadcast media - i.e. the ability to record off-air material (even with some copy protection mechanisms or DRM) to anything other than a limited size hard drive - the broadcasters, platform operators and content owners are driving elements close to piracy.

Over here, the Sky encryption system hasn't been hacked to avoid subscription payment (as far as I know), but the Conditional Access Module subsystem has been reverse engineered and implemented on 3rd party hardware (and in software I believe) to allow valid subscription cards to be used to watch and record Sky and Sky HD encrypted material using non-Sky receivers and PCs, including Windows Media Center.

Agreed. The need to do this is ridiculous.


Couldn't agree more, but... The content owners still believe that DRM is the only way to control their economic interests... I see the same mentality in the Enteprise Software space (Where I work for a living) and I'm amazed at how in denial incumbant business models are to emerging distribution / content creation models.

Where I see viable, economic business models for free / non-drm distribution the content owners can only see demise. Well in some ways they're 100% correct. IF they refuse to change their business model then I would agree that a DRM free world is a threat. sigh... It will require huge economic pain before companies with this DNA will ever seriously embrace and recognize the opportunity.

Until then we will be forced to do non-logical things like this thread highlights. I for one am not holding my breath or waiting for these "enlighted" companies to embrace a digital chain of custody that gives us consumers the fair-use-rights we have already paid for. In fact, I think it's quite clear that content owners loathe even the concept of "fair use"...

The real irony? Today's capture technology will allow any reasonably bright, enterprising (illegal) enterprise to capture and re-distribute content. ie: the real enemies of the content owners will in no way be deterred by these crazy control schemes. So the real losers are those who have paid for the content. The pirates will barely notice the cost and hassles of circumventing these DRM mechanisms...

Just one persons POV... ymmv

(In Japan 2nd Generation BluRay recorders are already being launched with integrated HD tuners for their HD OTA, BS and CS services. These are the devices that wil play pre-recorded BluRay media, as well as record on 25 and 50Gb blanks - NOT the original 1st generation Japanese boxes that were 25Gb recorders only - and won't play BluRay commercial discs)

Your point being?
These are *outrageously expensive* and duplicate *EVERY* piece of equipment I already have. I already have a BS/CS/OTA digital tuner included in my TV. I already have a HDD recorder w/firewire. Did you know that you WILL need to subscribe the CAS card in these recorders if you want to watch premium channels (well, all 3 of them but thats not hte point). So when you do that, you have a TV which cost $1000 extra to include bullshit japanese BS/CS/OTA tuners + descrambler, which came with a CAS card, and now you just paid another $1000 extra for a box which duplicates all that same stuff just to add a BlueRay recorder. No thanks, I'll keep capturing to PC (even if its "illegal " and "circumventing protection" as the last post points out). But let me tell you, looking at the quality of these broadcasts, they'd almost have to pay ME to pirate them.

Your point being?


That at least in Japan it can be officially done without resorting to esoteric or "not strictly legal" solutions - that may be beyond the abilities (technical or time) of many.


These are *outrageously expensive* and duplicate *EVERY* piece of equipment I already have.


Yep - not a perfect solution - Firewire or similar carriage of a data stream would be preferable in some situations I guess.


I already have a BS/CS/OTA digital tuner included in my TV. I already have a HDD recorder w/firewire.
Did you know that you WILL need to subscribe the CAS card in these recorders if you want to watch premium channels (well, all 3 of them but thats not hte point).


Yep - it is far from perfect. (Over here Sky allow multiple card authorisation for a much smaller fee than the full subscription - they use Caller ID to confirm that all receivers are in the same premises - and require all boxes to be connected to the same phone line)

I guess if you want an HD PVR and BluRay recorder the best combination would be a multiple tuner HDD and BluRay combined device, with a Monitor rather than a TV (possibly with an OTA tuner which is presumably non-pay TV)

However far from perfect solutions are still better than non-existent solutions - over here we have a single HD PVR for Sky. That's it. No Firewire connectivity. No choice - just a single Thomson HD PVR. No non-PVR solutions, no other manufacturers, no competition.

If you want to watch the UK Pay TV Satellite HD platform you have a choice of ONE receiver solution...


So when you do that, you have a TV which cost $1000 extra to include bullshit japanese BS/CS/OTA tuners + descrambler, which came with a CAS card, and now you just paid another $1000 extra for a box which duplicates all that same stuff just to add a BlueRay recorder. No thanks, I'll keep capturing to PC (even if its "illegal " and "circumventing protection" as the last post points out). But let me tell you, looking at the quality of these broadcasts, they'd almost have to pay ME to pirate them.

Yep - far from ideal. Better than nothing though - as I said earlier. At least Japan HAS a solution for recording HD off-air and from pay-TV providers on removable, archivable media...

Ah, sure, gotcha.
Definitely agreed. A capability to record is great, though I guess it's been there since 2000 or so when first BS satellite tuners came out as they've included firewire even in the first release models. Its now that they've been NOT including firewire for some god knows why reason, I'm guessing exactly because they expect you to buy a external HDD/DVD recorder box which will also have tuners etc and you'll be 'wasting' money with firewire.

As far as getting a 'monitor' as opposed to TV, good luck. Maybe in UK you can, but if you look at http://kakaku.com/sku/pricemenu/lcd.htm there are probably a total of 5 if not less LCD TVs which are monitor-only and do not include proprietary Japan tuners. So much for that idea.

As far as getting a 'monitor' as opposed to TV, good luck. Maybe in UK you can, but if you look at http://kakaku.com/sku/pricemenu/lcd.htm there are probably a total of 5 if not less LCD TVs which are monitor-only and do not include proprietary Japan tuners. So much for that idea.

Konnichiwa timecop-san.

Ah - over here you can only buy displays with integrated SD analogue (and sometimes SD DVB-T digital) tuners - there are no sets on sale with HD tuners for OTA, cable or satellite HD services yet. HD is an external set top box only proposition at the moment.

(If you don't want the SD tuners you can buy a "pro" or "business" model - which have AV inputs only)

Sayonara

(4 terms into a part-time Japanese course at SOAS, Univ of London. Just embarked on my first 40 Kanji after three terms of hiragana, katakana, vocab and grammar... Wish me luck !)

(If you don't want the SD tuners you can buy a "pro" or "business" model - which have AV inputs only)

Sounds like a good business model. Good luck w/studying.

"and heres the blackmagic decklink extreme's windows system req's also very stiff just like the AJA card.

Operating System
Microsoft Windows XP® Pro with service pack 1 or later
[Microsoft Windows 2000® and Server 2003 are not supported]

Hardware

Processor
• Intel Dual Xeon 2.8GHz or higher

Motherboard
• Intel 7505/7525 chipset – This includes motherboards such as Supermicro
X5DAE, X5DA8 and X6DA8 - G2

PCI slots
• 64 bit PCI-X slots 100MHz and 133MHz

Memory
• 2 GB ECC 2100 RAM

Graphics card
• AGP x 8 Graphics card (Not Matrox)
• PCI E x 16 (Nvidia FX1300)

Disk Arrays
• SCSI - Ultra 320 SCSI card (either PCI or onboard), with at least
8 x U320 SCSI disks, 10 000 rpm, software striped as RAID [0], OR;
• 2GB fibre Channel
• SCSI card recommendation - Adaptec 39320 series"

'Any idea why these drives cannot be SATA (like the Caviar RE series) drives?

Hi,

Those disk array requirements are for UNCOMPRESSED HD video, not the compressed codecs like HDV, DVCPRO-HD, and Cineform. It would be foolish to set up a fast RAID array to just record television. A single SATA drive is good enough.

That being said, I have met pro video editors using five striped SATA drives and comfortably editing HD UNCOMPRESSED video.

-Christopher Johnson

Foolish:

Thanks for the post, christophersj.

Obviously some of us don't think recording uncompressed HD via component with one of these professional capture cards is silly.

I think Black Magic Designs has overspecced the hard drives. SATA drives designed for the duty cycle of RAID (always on) are inexpensive compared to the SCSI and/or Fibre Channel drives

It's still unclear to me that the Black Magic Decklink HD Extreme card can compress 1080i data coming in real-time from my settop box.

Is your comment about it being foolish to set up a fast RAID array just to record television based on the fact that you think it can be real-time compressed with a codec like HDV? If that's true, then you may be right.

I certainly wouldn't go to the trouble or expense of a RAID array with 150-200 MB/s sustained write speed if I could just write this directly to a drive.

Maybe this solution (if its really possible) is the proper adaptation of these professional capture cards for DVR applications.

rlowell

Foolish:

Thanks for the post, christophersj.

Obviously some of us don't think recording uncompressed HD via component with one of these professional capture cards is silly.

I think Black Magic Designs has overspecced the hard drives. SATA drives designed for the duty cycle of RAID (always on) are inexpensive compared to the SCSI and/or Fibre Channel drives

It's still unclear to me that the Black Magic Decklink HD Extreme card can compress 1080i data coming in real-time from my settop box.

Is your comment about it being foolish to set up a fast RAID array just to record television based on the fact that you think it can be real-time compressed with a codec like HDV? If that's true, then you may be right.

I certainly wouldn't go to the trouble or expense of a RAID array with 150-200 MB/s sustained write speed if I could just write this directly to a drive.

Maybe this solution (if its really possible) is the proper adaptation of these professional capture cards for DVR applications.

rlowell

Yes, I didnt mean that uncompressed is foolish in the abstract, but that recording "Lost" or "Discovery Atlas" in uncompressed was foolish. Uncompressed is awesome for original broadcast and film work.

I am 100% sure that both AJA and Black Magic HD cards with analog Component inputs can TRANSCODE, on the fly, during capture, to the compressed codecs I mentioned above. I have done it many times. And to a regular ol' single SATA drive.

Oh, and one advantage of SCSI RAIDS over SATA RAIDS is the consistency of drive speed as one fills up the drive. Pro editors I know who use uncompressed HD for original work destined for broadcast leave at least 10% - 20% or even more of the SATA RAID empty on the slower part of the volume.

But sorry if I am confusing the two very different worlds: the people who want to just archive TV shows in HD, and those who are making original HD programming. These cards meets both of their needs. But the drive needs are different.

-Christopher Johnson

Christopher:

Well that's sweet.

So the video quality is stunning when transcoded real-time by the Decklink HD Extreme and written to a SATA drive?

Thanks. You've just saved me some money.

Are there any on-line forums/postings you know of where people are doing this and discussing their results?

Are the codecs you refer to "foreign" to things like Windows Media Center Edition? After I've captured a video clip, can I import it into WMCE without further transcoding?

rlowell

Well, "stunning" is a matter of opinion. One can sometimes easily say that the original broadcast isnt stunning to begin with. I feel that way sometimes. And HDV is pretty compressed. But Cineform on the PC and DVCPRO-HD on the Mac are pretty damn good. About 12MB per second approx.

I have no idea if these work with any entertainment center. I only know that it works out of its own component or SDI outputs.

A good set of forums for these cards can be found at www.creativecow.net

Good luck.

-Christopher

Hi everyone, this is my first post here.

I own a Blackmagic Multibridge PCI Express since one year now (I work for a gaming site), and I can't say I'm happy with the image quality. It's like the 720p footage is captured at 960x540 and then blown up to 1280x720. It just look extremely blurry. I hear the decklink uses the same circuitry with the same results.
I was wondering if any of you guys have any experience with the AJA Xena LHe? I'm willing to pay (again) the steep price if I get a very sharp image like I can see on some US sites.

I definitely do not recommend the decklink for component capture, it just doesn't look good. And I paid $2500 for it when it was released last year...

Jeff

Blimblim:

Can you comment a little on how the video looks when captured over the
component inputs vs. SDI or whatever other interface the Multibridge has that
you've tried capturing with?

Are you using a MAC or a PC? The Xena serios are for PC (and the Kona are for the MAC), right?

If PC, are you using the Cineform codec?

I don't think people on this forum are that qualified with regard to using professional video capture cards. So the Xena LHe may be better or worse than the Decklink HD Extreme. We probalby woudn't know. Have you tried posting this question over at CreativeCow?

rlowell

Blimblim:

Can you comment a little on how the video looks when captured over the
component inputs vs. SDI or whatever other interface the Multibridge has that
you've tried capturing with?

I don't have any HD-SDI devices, so I could only try the component inputs. My guess is that the internal analog to digital converter of the multbridge just isn't good, and it would look fine using the SDI input.

Are you using a MAC or a PC? The Xena serios are for PC (and the Kona are for the MAC), right?

If PC, are you using the Cineform codec?
I'm using a PC. I'm not using any codec, I captured uncompressed directly on my raid array. 3 hours of capture on my 1.2TB array :/

I don't think people on this forum are that qualified with regard to using professional video capture cards. So the Xena LHe may be better or worse than the Decklink HD Extreme. We probalby woudn't know. Have you tried posting this question over at CreativeCow?
I tried asking there a few hours ago too, hopefully I'll get a reply :)

Thanks for your time!

Blimblim:

What do you use to edit the uncompressed AVI file you capture to your RAID array with?

How complicated of a process is it to get this AVI file encoded in to something that can be played with Windows Media Player?

I had trouble signing up on CreativeCow.net. They claimed to have sent me an e-mail to activate my account. But I never got it.

Component video capture is what I need to make this product/application work. I don't need to edit the pixel/raster data in the video. But I need to turn the clip into format that's small enough to stream on my network and playable on a standard video adapter in Windows XP with WMP.

Do you think maybe there's something else wrong in your setup that gives you the blurry video? I have a hard time believing BlackMagic's using sub-standard A/D converters on their card. This is a professional capture card.

rlowell

Blimblim:

What do you use to edit the uncompressed AVI file you capture to your RAID array with?

How complicated of a process is it to get this AVI file encoded in to something that can be played with Windows Media Player?

I have very simple needs in term of editing, so just avisynth+virtualdub and then whatever program can use an avs file as an input is enough for me.
The adobe premiere profiles are very good though, mjpeg works great if you do not need really high quality.

I had trouble signing up on CreativeCownet. They claimed to have sent me an e-mail to activate my account. But I never got it.
No problem here, but I can't find my message for some reason...

Do you think maybe there's something else wrong in your setup that gives you the blurry video? I have a hard time believing BlackMagic's using sub-standard A/D converters on their card. This is a professional capture card.
I'm not the only one with this type of setup, and they get the same blurry result.
I'm considering buying the AJA HD10AVA component->hd-sdi converter now, it seems really good.

Hi everyone, this is my first post here.

I own a Blackmagic Multibridge PCI Express since one year now (I work for a gaming site), and I can't say I'm happy with the image quality. It's like the 720p footage is captured at 960x540 and then blown up to 1280x720. It just look extremely blurry. I hear the decklink uses the same circuitry with the same results.
I was wondering if any of you guys have any experience with the AJA Xena LHe? I'm willing to pay (again) the steep price if I get a very sharp image like I can see on some US sites.

I definitely do not recommend the decklink for component capture, it just doesn't look good. And I paid $2500 for it when it was released last year...

Jeff

Something else is wrong, I think. While some of the COMPRESSED codecs, like DVCPRO-HD 720p are indeed a little lower resolution (960x720), the UNCOMPRESSED codecs should be rock solid and pure and sharp as a tack. Professionals I have talked to even think the compressed codecs can stand on their own for some broadcast work.

I work with the competing card from AJA (Kona lh), but can only work from what I have heard about the Blackmagic. I know that real pros use both for critical work.

How are you monitoring your HD footage? The folks I know use either a production monitor that shows the best color and blacks but not full HD res, or a computer LCD with component inputs like the Dell 24" for the best accurate detail but not great color accuracy.

Keep trying to get creativecow.net to work. I know the sign up process is a little archaic.

Something else is wrong in the chain here. Using either of these cards and their "medium" quality codecs should have AMAZING results that blow your socks off as far as archiving television shows goes.

Remember, if the original HDTV signal isnt good (over-compressed), the recording wont be either.

Both of these cards are very high quality and used in professional television and film. I prefer the AJA Kona L series for Mac for my own personal reasons.

-Christopher

Something else is wrong, I think. While some of the COMPRESSED codecs, like DVCPRO-HD 720p are indeed a little lower resolution (960x720), the UNCOMPRESSED codecs should be rock solid and pure and sharp as a tack. Professionals I have talked to even think the compressed codecs can stand on their own for some broadcast work.

I work with the competing card from AJA (Kona lh), but can only work from what I have heard about the Blackmagic. I know that real pros use both for critical work.

How are you monitoring your HD footage? The folks I know use either a production monitor that shows the best color and blacks but not full HD res, or a computer LCD with component inputs like the Dell 24" for the best accurate detail but not great color accuracy.

Keep trying to get creativecow_net to work. I know the sign up process is a little archaic.

Something else is wrong in the chain here. Using either of these cards and their "medium" quality codecs should have AMAZING results that blow your socks off as far as archiving television shows goes.

Remember, if the original HDTV signal isnt good (over-compressed), the recording wont be either.

Both of these cards are very high quality and used in professional television and film. I prefer the AJA Kona L series for Mac for my own personal reasons.

-Christopher
Well I capture with game footage from both 360 and PS3, so compression from the source isn't an issue ;)
Take a look at this image (I can't post link yet, sorry):
images_xboxyde_com/misc/720pcapture2.jpg
It doesn't look sharp at all. I get the same quality whatever capture method I use, it's like a blur filter has been applied.
Take a look at this framebuffer capture from the same scene:
images_xboxyde_com/gallery/public/2973/789_0020.jpg
This is how it looks on my tv via component, I see the slight aliasing and all.
Other people have had the same result with the multibridge.
Could you provide me with a 720p sample image from the Kona?

Sorry, those links dont work -- even using copy/paste.

So how are you monitoring?

You must be using the Blackmagic Uncompressed 720p codec, right?

I dont have any 720p stuff. We used 1080i on the AJA. We used DVPRO-HD 1080i for our codec, with the AJA card, and made a commercial DVD that Sony Music is putting out of a concert by the band Cartel, from Atlanta. We output the whole show to DVCPRO-HD deck (which cost $450 a day to rent!!). It looked great. Sony is downrezzing the whole edit to go on DVD and putting the HD version on the shelf for later Blu_ray.

Are you sure about your settings? Your not using Standard Def Uncompressed Component are you?

Sorry, those links dont work -- even using copy/paste.

So how are you monitoring?

You must be using the Blackmagic Uncompressed 720p codec, right?

I dont have any 720p stuff. We used 1080i on the AJA. We used DVPRO-HD 1080i for our codec, with the AJA card, and made a commercial DVD that Sony Music is putting out of a concert by the band Cartel, from Atlanta. We output the whole show to DVCPRO-HD deck (which cost $450 a day to rent!!). It looked great. Sony is downrezzing the whole edit to go on DVD and putting the HD version on the shelf for later Blu_ray.

Are you sure about your settings? Your not using Standard Def Uncompressed Component are you?
You have to change the first two _ to . in the links I gave, it should do the trick.
Anyway, I'm not monitoring directly the capture. I have a component doubler that allows me to play normally on my HDTV while capturing on the PC. Of course I've tried plugging the 360 directly to the multibridge in case the doubler was at fault, it wasn't.
As for the settings, yes I'm quite sure of them. It's not like the images look like SD, they are detailed enough for an average HD image I guess, just not as detailed as they should be. I've tried capturing directly with virtualdub using the directshow driver, with blackmagic's own application and with premiere. All use different drivers, and all get me the same result :/

I see now. The first is nice but softer. The first reminds me of a VIDEO image and the second reminds me of an image that stayed in the computer graphics world and wasnt made for a video environment. The two worlds are different.

I wonder if it is the software you are using to look at the captured file.

Im out of ideas. I would post these at creativecow.net forum for Blackmagic products. My experience is with real-world video, like documentaries from high and low end HD cameras.

-Christopher

Group:

I've read it stated and/or implied that this card cannot capture to the cineform intermediate format.

It's confusing me.

I've also read that the more expensive AJA Xena card can. I don't know what's different about these cards that would enable one and not the other.

The Xena costs about a grand more.

rlowell

I wish I could tell you. I know about the Mac side of things and we dont use the Cineform codec at all. Our "compromise" codec is DVCPRO-HD.

You know, the Blackmagic support page at the company web site is very helpful. You can even email a question there and they will answer it.

Thanks, Chris.

I'll try e-mailing BM. CreativeCow (I'm able to post there) has not been all that helpful.

Hey guys.

Just a small update about my capture problems with the Blackmagic hardware. I've switched my 360 to 1080i and the quality (deinterlaced and resized to 1280x720) is much better than plain old 720p.
720p : http://images.xboxyde.com/misc/testcapture/1.png
1080i : http://images.xboxyde.com/misc/testcapture/2.png
Unfortunately for very high motion source even with a good deinterlacing algorithm I'm getting a lot of deinterlacing noise. So even if it's better than before, it's still not a perfect solution. Especially since I can't have the PS3 output 1080i with all games.
I'm in contact with AJA right now, I'll go do some testing at their french retailer in the next few days and keep you guys updated if you want.
Just a beautiful capture I did with Blue Dragon:
http://images.xboxyde.com/misc/bd52.jpg

Great thread. Any updates? Is there finally a solution for an HTPC to capture 1080i for a reasonable price at a reasonable space requirement?

Great thread. Any updates? Is there finally a solution for an HTPC to capture 1080i for a reasonable price at a reasonable space requirement?
I wouldn't expect an affordable solution in the near future.

Great thread. Any updates? Is there finally a solution for an HTPC to capture 1080i for a reasonable price at a reasonable space requirement?

Although I haven't bought for my home yet, my work keeps me in touch with Mac HD capture cards. The companies I watch also make PC versions.

The combination of a PCI-x or PCI-e High Def capture card from AJA or Blackmagic, and a normal SATA hard drive should reliably record the HD signal to moderately compressed codecs like DVCPRO-HD or Cineform's Aspect-HD on the PC. These codecs are around 12-14 MB a second.

So, if you already have a modern, fast, tower-style computer, you should be able to buy a $1000 capture card by one of these companies and use ANALOG Component-HD connection to capture to a normal hard drive.

You also need capture software like Final Cut or Premier Pro or even a capture utility that may or may not be included with the card.

This isnt a consumer-like DVR solution. You would have to go to the computer and double click a file to get it to play back out to the HDTV. But the ability to archive without DRM is nice.

That being said, Dish Network Satellite HD service is coming out with the ability to archive shows to an external USB-2 drive (sometime this Summer I have read) from their HD-DVR, the VIP-622. The quality is lossless but the DRM keeps it for playback on their system.

-Christopher S. Johsnon

This is a great thread because of how scarce information is for this topic. Blimblim and chrostphersj brought some great insight. Blimblim, have you found out if the AJA is any better than the Blackmagic in analog conversion? Also, there seems to be a Japanese card floating about called the Earthsoft PV3. I really want to purchase one of these cards, but I want to choose the one that has the best analog-to-digital conversion (the least amount of detail loss). If anyone knows, please speak up!

This is a great thread because of how scarce information is for this topic. Blimblim and chrostphersj brought some great insight. Blimblim, have you found out if the AJA is any better than the Blackmagic in analog conversion? Also, there seems to be a Japanese card floating about called the Earthsoft PV3. I really want to purchase one of these cards, but I want to choose the one that has the best analog-to-digital conversion (the least amount of detail loss). If anyone knows, please speak up!
I still didn't buy the AJA card. I haven't found anyone willing to send me some sample captures so there is no way I'm going to spend $1500 (and more) for something unproven.
As for the PV3, I actually got one on the way from Japan as we speak. So I'll let you guys know in a week or so :)

Thanks, I'll be waiting for your results. :)

PV3 is 8bit A/D
Anyway, it works great, I have one, though I've only used it maybe a total of 10 times, because analog capture is lose.

I'm not sure what the actual A/D converter is in the Blackmagic or AJA. The specs on the AJA say that it takes 12-bit analog input and captures 10-bit. I don't know if you can say that the converter is also 10-bit or not. The Blackmagic has HDMI capture and the AJA does not. The AJA supports the Cineform codec though and the Blackmagic does not.

In case anyone missed it in the other thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=793577)...

The Intensity Pro card was announced on Monday, which can capture analog component.

It will be available in early May for $349.

press release (http://www.blackmagic-design.com/press/detail.asp?pressID=105)
product page (http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/)
image of card (http://www.blackmagic-design.com/images/press_products/intensitypro-34-500.jpg)
image of cable (http://www.blackmagic-design.com/images/press_products/intensitypro-cable-500.jpg)

Nice, but no digital audio input = no 5.1ch = lose

Nice, but no digital audio input = no 5.1ch = lose
You can capture 5.1 digital audio using a separate sound card, and then mux it with the video afterwards.

Oh, sure, and deal with sync issues/etc

For $349, this card seems like a real breakthrough. But I can't help but wonder how long it will be before Hollywood starts screaming like a stuck pig about this card? After all, this is a product that could exploit their much-demonized "analog hole"...

PV3 was priced at ~$220 before the scammers got to it, and it has digital audio in which ignores SCMS (lol), its been in production/sales for almost a year now, and some rare units are making it out to U.S. with much markup, and nobody is really screaming (MPAA-like). Analog capture takes heaps of space, hard to edit/archive, blah blah, just a waste of time.

Anyway not saying the intensity is bad, but all you people who are thinking youre gonna make the next homebuilt 24/lost/prisonbreak timeshifting machine with this, please give up now ~

OK, I'll admit this Intensity Pro card looks intriguing.

It seems to have everything I want and be much more comfortably priced (and in a better form factor for HTPC) than the Decklink Extreme HD, which I was prepared to buy at some point.

But I have some suspicion re: DRM. If you want to record only over component video without anything connected on HDMI, is that possible?

There may be some backdoor DRM on this that's not obvious in the product brief. It may be able to record component, but only when the HDMI input tells it there's no DRM in the video stream. I do see some comments in the product brief about it being designed not to record encrypted video.


Has anyone tried this?

rlowell

But I have some suspicion re: DRM. If you want to record only over component video without anything connected on HDMI, is that possible?
As I understand it, one of the intended uses of the card is to capture from camcorders that only have component output. They have no HDMI output. So it would stand to reason that the card could capture component video by itself.

As I understand it, one of the intended uses of the card is to capture from camcorders that only have component output. They have no HDMI output. So it would stand to reason that the card could capture component video by itself.

Erik:

OK. Good point.

Now, my satellite settop box puts out HD in I think 1920 x 1080i with a screen refresh rate of 60 Hz.

It looks like the highest refresh rate this card records at is 59.94 Hz. I think that's a standard for camcorders.

Does that pose any practical problems for me to record from my STB?

rlowell

Now, my satellite settop box puts out HD in I think 1920 x 1080i with a screen refresh rate of 60 Hz.
Your STB most likely puts out 59.94 Hz, not 60.00 Hz. Practically all HD channels in the US use 59.94 Hz. The standard refresh rate for NTSC is 59.94 Hz, and HD channels use that same refresh rate in order to be compatible with NTSC.

Erik:

Thanks for the clarification on frame update rate. 59.94 it is. Very knowledgable.

rlowell

How does the Blackmagic Intensity perform capturing 480p or 720p from a Xbox 360?