From your photos, I think there is a hint of red push on the TW1000......

Jacksonian

Tank you for quick posting the Picture.
When you wake up :) try to think about few matters:

1) What is your general impression about new Epson? Did that projector make you happy or rather disappoint you in any aspect?

2) Some times ago Intertek institute made an intensive research (sponsored by the TI by the way) and compared long term reliability of DLP and LCD panels (for business use however) in different on/off periods.
The key result was that LCD panels have significant color and contrast degradation after more than 2000 hours of usage. That was caused by deformation of LCD panels in hot environment. The most visible change was greenish tint on the picture. The picture from your Panasonic looks very greenish, so I would like to ask you how many hours that projector has been working, and did you see greenish tint from the beginning of using that projector?

3) The last think is taking screenshots about which you asked in another post. Since I am also not a photographer I remember something like Grey Kodak Card issue. The point is that your camera’s exposure meter is trying to average everything to grey. Blacks trying to get greyer and whites make also more grey than white. If you would like, try not to use any auto mode in your camera, and try to use full manual mode if you have them. When you set proper aperture and shutter speed you can correct exposure about 1/3 or 2/3 EV down and you should get more real blacks.

Once again thanks for posting.

Regards,
Milimetr

Milimetr

Apparently the degradation of the LCD panels was primarily due to the way they were manufactured, ie using organic compounds.

The new D6/C2fine panels used in the Epson TW1000 and the Mitsu 5000 I have are supposed to have rectified this.

The new D6/C2fine panels used in the Epson TW1000 and the Mitsu 5000 I have are supposed to have rectified this.

I hope that you are right! But my question was how long the Panasonic has been used, because its green tint looks like slight panel degradation.

Really interesting on the Batman Begins shot comparison. You can see the better blacks and contrasts with the tw1000, and an overall cleaner image. But, here is the wierd thing. You can see the river at the foot of the city better insofar as a greenish light (maybe the moon) reflection off the water. But, while you don't get this with the Panny, you actually get full "lights" reflections of the buildings that line the river. Isn't the latter more difficult to deliver? I presume this is something that gets lost in the attempt by the tw1000 to get better blacks?

From your photos, I think there is a hint of red push on the TW1000......
Definitely don't use the screenshots to gauge the correct color tones. Plus, these are OUT OF THE BOX settings, no adjustment at all. I set the color temp to 6500 and put it in Theater Black 1. Honestly, it looks great.

But understand this, I don't want my display ISF calibrated. ISF looks boring and blah to me. I like a warm, ever so slightly oversaturated image. That's my preference, it may not be "accurate" or "correct" or what the Imaging Science Foundation wants me to see, but I don't really care.

1) What is your general impression about new Epson? Did that projector make you happy or rather disappoint you in any aspect?
Very pleased so far. Improvement in virtually every area I was hoping for: brighter, blacker, better contrast, better colors and even quieter.

The Epson in high lamp mode for living room is still fairly quiet, perfect for a ballgame, you'd never hear it. My Panasonic in contrast, in high lamp mode sounded like a jet plane!


2) The key result was that LCD panels have significant color and contrast degradation after more than 2000 hours of usage. That was caused by deformation of LCD panels in hot environment. The most visible change was greenish tint on the picture. The picture from your Panasonic looks very greenish, so I would like to ask you how many hours that projector has been working, and did you see greenish tint from the beginning of using that projector?
The Panasonic only has 446 hours on the lamp. The new D6 panels in the TW1000 are inorganic and shouldn't suffer from the LCD degradation. I don't know for sure how the colors were originally, if they were any different. All I know now is that I can't get the colors on the Panasonic anywhere close to the Epson. And even when I try to match up the temperatures, the contrast is so relatively poor on the Panny that it makes the colors look bad.


3) The last think is taking screenshots ...If you would like, try not to use any auto mode in your camera, and try to use full manual mode if you have them. When you set proper aperture and shutter speed you can correct exposure about 1/3 or 2/3 EV down and you should get more real blacks.
I put it in manual mode, haven't quite figured out how to adjust the aperture and shutter speed yet. It's a Canon SD450 Elph. I guess I need to get the manual out.

Perhap next time, put the small images in the forum and let us link to larger ones. These giant images don't even fit in my browser window w/o scrolling.

Black level on the Epson looks way better than the panny. Also, are you watching 1080i or 1080p material? I expect that 720p will look very similar on both units for sharpness. Might even look slightly worse on the Epson b/c of scaling.

Edit: I just saw your mention of 1080p content. Missed it with it mixed among the humongous pictures! :P

-- jaydillyo
I tried both 720p and 1080i for the comparison shots and couldn't tell any difference. On the football games, I even changed the NBC game to 1080i on the TiVo and for the FOX game I changed it to 720p. Still couldn't see any difference. Didn't seem to matter if I gave the edge to the 720p machine or the 1080p machine.

The Training Day shots are all 1080p, but obviously I couldn't send 1080p to the Panasonic for the comparison shots, so those are all 1080i.

Isn't it wild that even giving them both a 1080i image that the Epson doesn't really show any more detail? And not even from up close.

Really interesting on the Batman Begins shot comparison. You can see the better blacks and contrasts with the tw1000, and an overall cleaner image. But, here is the wierd thing. You can see the river at the foot of the city better insofar as a greenish light (maybe the moon) reflection off the water. But, while you don't get this with the Panny, you actually get full "lights" reflections of the buildings that line the river. Isn't the latter more difficult to deliver? I presume this is something that gets lost in the attempt by the tw1000 to get better blacks?
Dave, I believe it just got cut off on the bottom of the screen.

Guys, I've thumbnailed the pics and added a couple of comments, so go back and look at them again.

Also note, it's *really hard* to mask those lenses cleanly, the light diffuses so it's not a clean razor sharp distinction on screen, it's a shadowed transition for abou 6 inches. So don't beat up on the Panny at the bottom of its picture. So base your comparison on the center of each image when possible.

Also note that I just let the Epson run off the bottom of the screen, so like on the Saints game with the 2 guys standing there, you can see the brightness off the screen frame and also the reflection off my cabinets below. I'll take a daylight picture so you understand what you're seeing.

And to be fair to the Panny, the Epson is about 8 inches closer to the screen if anyone thinks that would make a huge difference in brightness.

The setup from last night:

The Panasonic has a DVI/HDMI adapter. Both PJ's are connected via the Gefen 1x2 HDMI splitter directly to the BD/HD-DVD/TiVo.
http://aycu30.webshots.com/image/6509/2001474510151289352_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2001474510151289352)

http://aycu38.webshots.com/image/8117/2002353113412276767_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002353113412276767)

From TNT-HD of Gladiator via the TiVo S3, any blur is from trying to freeze it in a good spot, not the pj:
http://aycu01.webshots.com/image/9560/2000397788471922746_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000397788471922746)

http://aycu04.webshots.com/image/6683/2000383548872420263_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000383548872420263)

Aw crap, have to wait until I get home to see the screenshots - my office bans webshots :(

I was finishing up last night with some Gladiator on TNT-HD and got this message:
http://aycu19.webshots.com/image/8978/2000308197800136179_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000308197800136179)

Now, everything had gone fine for the first 3 hours or so, so I'm not sure why this popped up. It's happened again 2 more times. It was still on the same scene in Gladiator, so I don't know if there might be something in that scene that's giving the iris hell or what. So I'm going to try watching something else here in a few minutes.

I've sent an email to the dealer, hopefully I won't have to ship it back to Japan, but that may be what happens.

Just got them both hooked up. I can certainly see more screen door way up close, but it definitely disappears completely at about 11 feet from my 106" sceen and it's not significantly noticeable until I get about 8' or less. **Note: that's with a paused screen and a white background and purposefully looking for it.**

So if you sit at 1.5 or further, you won't gain anything as far as screen door with the 1080p. Haven't put images side by side yet to see if it's any "smoother" or not.

Jacksonian

Do you have experience with DLP based projectors.
Can you compare PQ of the TW1000 with other DLP based projectors like Optoma H79, Benq, or maybe higher priced ones like Optoma HD81 or SIM2 D80?

Sorry, no experience with any of the recent DLP models. I tried a few years ago and they gave me headaches. So I can't offer any comparison.

Got the blue error screen again after about 10 minutes of viewing. Was watching Batman Begins on HD-DVD this time and I don't even think I had the auto iris on this time. So it looks like she may be making the trip back to Japan for a replacement.

What's interesting is that I thought the effect of the auto iris was quite subtle. You could certainly see it as I flipped it on and off, but it wasn't a big effect. And I tried to find appropriate scenes for it to work.

Since I'm getting the error message every 10 minutes, I'm not going to be able to do in-depth comparisons or have time to
calibrate the TW1000 with DVE.

I can say for sure that the TW700 is significantly brighter. The 1600/1200 lumens ratio appears correct. I'd say maybe a 25-30% brightness increase with the TW700.

jacksonian, it's difficult to follow which devices you are referring to so please always use model numbers instead of make or pronouns. I'd like to see a summary of your evaluations point-by-point for each projector such as brighness, contrast, colors, SDE, connections, etc.

How do you judge the viewability with ambient light? Looks pretty good from your pix.

Your postings are really adding to our understanding of the latest projectors. Thanks.

I'll put up some pics in a few minutes of both pjs in theater black 1 mode with the filtered light from my blackout shades. The TW700 is significantly brighter even in Theater Black mode. If you sit far enough back for SDE not to affect you at all, I can easily someone choosing the TW700 over the TW1000 for its brightness.

So the Epson is broken already?

I don't know if "broken" is the word I would use. It works flawlessly for about 10 minutes at the time now :D. And then gives me that auto iris message. It will need to go back.

Makes you wonder if that's why PJ mysteriously had a TW1000 *available* when they're extremely scarce.

Tha'Ts a bummer. I guess you will be paying for the shipping. Or will Epson USA take care of it?

I've emailed the importer and just heard back. They suggested I reset it again. I've already done that 3 times. It happens predictably after 10 minutes or so of being on.

They also quoted me their warranty policy:
"Warranty is valid only in Japan for 1 year. It is not valid in your country.
International warranty or more than 1 year warranty will NOT be applied.
When machines need warrant repair, you should send machines to makers in Japan, via us.
Shipping cost of Item's round trip will be your responsibility."

I responded that since this projector was obviously defective within the first 2 hours, it should be replaced. I also mentioned that there were folks here at AVS considering buying from them and that I'd like to be able to give them a good recommendation.

I guess worst case scenario I will end up paying round trip shipping and being without the TW1000 for a couple of weeks. In that case, the price of the pj just effectively increased by the cost of shipping to Japan.

jacksonian, it's difficult to follow which devices you are referring to so please always use model numbers instead of make or pronouns.
Not sure what you were having trouble with. All of the pictures up until now were either of the Epson TW1000 1080p projector or of my old Panasonic AE500 720p projector. It should be clear which is which in the photos, but if someone's not sure, I'll label them.

I'd like to see a summary of your evaluations point-by-point for each projector such as brightness, contrast, colors, SDE, connections, etc.
That comparison is easy. The Epson TW1000 dominates the Panasonic AE500 in every category, not even close.


How do you judge the viewability with ambient light? Looks pretty good from your pix.
The TW1000 does quite well compared to the Panasonic, but then the TW700 that I just got today makes that same jump again compared to the TW1000. Follow me? It's about the same relative increase in brightness from the TW1000 to TW700 as it is from the Panasonic 500 to the Epson TW1000.

I can say for sure that the TW700 is significantly brighter. The 1600/1200 lumens ratio appears correct. I'd say maybe a 25-30% brightness increase with the TW700.

Bada bing, bada boom......I think I just made my decision....99% there, just awaiting a few comparison shots that be posted....

Okay, here goes. I could not get them both on the screen at the same time and be fair to either one, the shadow from the masking made it impossible to do.

So what I did was get both projectors lined up, set to 6500k, Theater Black 1 mode, Auto Iris OFF. I got them centered on the screen, put the tripod in place, and then took identical shots by just putting a dvd case in front of the lens of the one I wasn't shooting. So they are exactly the same frame from exactly the same spot.

And these shots were taken from 3 feet and 4 feet from the screen. Yes, I said 3 and 4 feet from a 106" screen with a BluRay set to output 1080i. I won't tell you which is which yet, but i promise that out of each pair, one is the 1080p and one is the 720p.

*any moire (wavy line pattern) is a function of the camera and is not on the image on the screen* And ignore the shadow of the tripod in the second shot, I couldn't move it if I wanted to give you an exact duplicate spot.

http://aycu33.webshots.com/image/8992/2000826537547685343_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000826537547685343)

http://aycu23.webshots.com/image/6742/2000825814212219267_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000825814212219267)

http://aycu24.webshots.com/image/9423/2000828090992083439_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000828090992083439)

http://aycu37.webshots.com/image/7116/2000829759125926953_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000829759125926953)

http://aycu06.webshots.com/image/8725/2000850635380981473_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000850635380981473)

http://aycu14.webshots.com/image/7533/2000834029768059252_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000834029768059252)

So everyone who tells me there's a "drastic" difference in detail between a 1080p and a 720p pj on high quality material, tell me which is which? Well, the SDE will give it away. But I challenge you to find more detail.

Here's a shot showing the kind of light coming into the room. Those are 5 foot tall windows lining the entire wall perpendicular to the screen. Pics taken close to noon on a partly cloudy day here in NC.

http://aycu17.webshots.com/image/8896/2001941647614695838_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2001941647614695838)

And here's the effect it had on brightness between the two, both still on Theater Black 1 mode.
http://aycu11.webshots.com/image/9170/2001945672406621608_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2001945672406621608)

So the bottom one on the "effect of your lighting post" is the tw700, correct?

So the bottom one on the "effect of your lighting post" is the tw700, correct?
For sure. And remember those are both in Theater Black 1. That's nowhere close to what they can do in Living Room or Dynamic.

As far as which images i prefer of the pairs you have posted thus far, it changes from shot to shot. I think it must be moire dependent (or some other pattern effect that I am detecting from the browser shot). In the first set of images of Denzel, I DEFINITELY prefer the bottom one. In the second set of images I prefer the top one. The last set of images are virtually identical to me. I can not really tell any difference, but after looking hard, see more "patterning" on the right hand edge of the lower image and therefore prefer the top one. Interesting that neither of these seem to show a big brightness improvement over the other. Why is that vis-a-vis your 25% +/- comment?

As far as which images i prefer of the pairs you have posted thus far, it changes from shot to shot. I think it must be moire dependent (or some other pattern effect that I am detecting from the browser shot). In the first set of images of Denzel, I DEFINITELY prefer the bottom one. In the second set of images I prefer the top one. The last set of images are virtually identical to me. I can not really tell any difference, but after looking hard, see more "patterning" on the right hand edge of the lower image and therefore prefer the top one. Interesting that neither of these seem to show a big brightness improvement over the other. Why is that vis-a-vis your 25% +/- comment?
You chose the 1080p correctly in the first 2 sets. The TW1000 is on Bottom, Top, Top in that series.

Brightness wasn't an issue on these I think for 2 reasons:
1) It was a bit cloudier by the time I got to these (but still nowhere close to dark in the room)
2) I was so close to the screen, I think that negated some of the effect of the room light

But I assure you they were taken seconds apart in the same room light in the same picture mode, Theater Black 1

Now, if I could take away the screen door in those, does anyone honestly think they could tell a difference based on detail?

You chose the 1080p correctly in the first 2 sets. The TW1000 is on Bottom, Top, Top in that series.

Just to make sure that we are on the same page, I chose the bottom, top, top. So, are you saying I correctly i.d.'d the 1080p on all 3 sets then?

Also, what was the patterning I saw then, was it the SDE? If so, then I would love to see these image snapshots from something like 8' or 9'. I think you said these were at 3' and 4' (and maybe you did this to see if the SDE was profound). But I will never sit this close.

Jacksonian,

What about some subjective comparisons between the TW700 and TW1000, regarding black levels, shadow detail, sharpness, image noise, overall impression from the picture at different scenes, etc. ?. Will it be possible to get something with the problematic TW1000 ?.

Up to now we only know:
1. SDE is similar (i.e non existant) in both, from 1.5X,
2. the TW700 is ~25% brighter,
3. It doesn't seem there is a significant difference regarding detail.

Last request, will it be possible for you to compare still images taken by a high quality camera between these two pjs ?, this will be the only way to know for sure you are not limited by the quality of the transfer.

Thought this discussion on the quality of lens used on the new JVC would be relevant here because both the Epsons TW700/810 and TW1000 also have high quality Fujinon lenses.

JVC Lens (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9211692&&#post9211692)

Just to make sure that we are on the same page, I chose the bottom, top, top. So, are you saying I correctly i.d.'d the 1080p on all 3 sets then?
That is correct.

Also, what was the patterning I saw then, was it the SDE?
The grid pattern on the 720p pj images is screen door (SDE). The curved line patterning on the 1080p pj image is called moire. It is NOT present on the actual image on the screen. I think because of the LACK of screen door, the camera is actually picking up the pattern in the screen material and making a moire effect.


If so, then I would love to see these image snapshots from something like 8' or 9'. I think you said these were at 3' and 4' (and maybe you did this to see if the SDE was profound). But I will never sit this close.
I took those at such an extremely close distance to prove a very specific point: that you cannot see more detail in the 1080p pj image even at close distance with some of the best consumer grade material available to normal AVS'ers.

They were not meant in any way to show you what SDE might look like at normal distances. They do however show you how ridiculously small the pixels are on the 1080p machines and that there is no issue with SDE on those and no need for anything like a defocus or smoothscreen.

I will take some normal viewing distance shots of the 710 for you guys maybe tonight.

What about some subjective comparisons between the TW700 and TW1000, regarding black levels, shadow detail, sharpness, image noise, overall impression from the picture at different scenes, etc. ?. Will it be possible to get something with the problematic TW1000 ?.

Up to now we only know:
1. SDE is similar (i.e non existant) in both, from 1.5X,
2. the TW700 is ~25% brighter,
3. It doesn't seem there is a significant difference regarding detail.

It's just now dark here, so I'm going to do a little more comparison. The TW1000 is only running in 10 minute increments, so that will be limited. But I will get you guys some good shots of the 710 at normal viewing distances.

So I'll reserve judgment for now since I haven't seen the TW700 in a dark room yet.


Last request, will it be possible for you to compare still images taken by a high quality camera between these two pjs ?, this will be the only way to know for sure you are not limited by the quality of the transfer.
No fancy cameras here. You'll just have to take my word for it, sorry. I'll try to keep commenting on whether they seem accurate to me or not.

I've emailed the importer and just heard back. They suggested I reset it again. I've already done that 3 times. It happens predictably after 10 minutes or so of being on.

They also quoted me their warranty policy:
"Warranty is valid only in Japan for 1 year. It is not valid in your country.
International warranty or more than 1 year warranty will NOT be applied.
When machines need warrant repair, you should send machines to makers in Japan, via us.
Shipping cost of Item's round trip will be your responsibility."

I responded that since this projector was obviously defective within the first 2 hours, it should be replaced. I also mentioned that there were folks here at AVS considering buying from them and that I'd like to be able to give them a good recommendation.

I guess worst case scenario I will end up paying round trip shipping and being without the TW1000 for a couple of weeks. In that case, the price of the pj just effectively increased by the cost of shipping to Japan.

I think we should all donate something towards his shipping costs. It doesn't have to be much, even $5-10 or more from enough people will cover it. He is donating enough of his money, time and effort from which we are all benefitting. Anyone else interested?

I think we should all donate something towards his shipping costs. It doesn't have to be much, even $5-10 or more from enough people will cover it. He is donating enough of his money, time and effort from which we are all benefitting. Anyone else interested?

I like your attitude. You sound like a very generous person. I'm in. Set it up. PM
I don't want to sound cheap, so I'll go for the lowest amount $5 :D

I too appreciate what Jack has done and it is a BIG BUMMER that he has received a Lemon.

It's Christmas Yal, lend a helping had.

Thanks for the offer to help with shipping, guys, but I'll be OK. But I do only plan on keeping one of these babies. So I'm hoping someone will want the other. I'm hoping PJ & Epson will just send me a new one.

My wife is telling me she likes the brighter one (the TW700). Of course, SDE has never bothered her and she doesn't understand my issues about blacks.

My wife is telling me she likes the brighter one (the TW700). Of course, SDE has never bothered her and she doesn't understand my issues about blacks.

Ahhh since it's the season you need to ask for one of these for Xmas ! :)

That's funny, but she's a trooper. She's been reading a book while I spend hours taking pics for you guys, and then she's honest about which one she likes better.

In theater modes for movies at night, she prefers the TW1000. For any ambient light viewing, she prefers the TW700. Not earthshaking conclusions, but she lets me A/B them without her knowing which is which.

The only problem with this comparison is that you really can't make them equal brightness. If you cranked the TW1000 up enough to equal the lower power modes of the TW700, you'd remove the color filter and that would throw everything off.

What do you guys think of this screenshot?
http://aycu30.webshots.com/image/6389/2005340664610237458_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2005340664610237458)

I like the darks against that blue/white. I seem to be in the same camp as your wife. I like the punch of the brighter picture. I will have a 110" screen and sit at 12', that should be NO problem via your analysis.
I would bring ya some beer for your hard work, but you said you don't drink. Wine?
I think you said the 1000 was quiter in the brighter modes, is the 700 fan audible in theater 1?
Bummer on the auto iris, sorry.
Thanks for the hard work, this time of year time is precious in my house, so your wife is truly a trooper on this one.

You should be OK. That picture has a trick to it though. Look at it closely.

Sent you a PM yesterday, didn't hear back.

What do you guys think of this screenshot?
http://aycu30.webshots.com/image/6389/2005340664610237458_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2005340664610237458)

Its hard to say on my end, but it looks to me that you might be seeing good DEPTH of image. Is that your take on it?

I got your pm about 3 hours ago, I got home and relieved the babysitter as the wife was out getting Christmas done. I have really only just now gotten to catch up. (up at 5am, left WS at 5:30am and hit accounts all the way to asheville, down to spartanburg, over to rockhill, and then home around 7pm) Real busy next 2 days and then the grand finale on Monday!
I am not available for guinea pig ops till next week. I hate that too. Let me know what is good if anything, since the 1000 is on a future roundtrip ticket.
Stu

I didn't catch what you were eluding to about the picture. I did notice some blue on the edges of the the head of #5, but that was about all. Viewing from my 12" PowerBook, so not a lot of screen to see real well with, that and I am not seeing as well as my younger eyes let me.

Alright, I can't stand it anymore, no one's awake left to play my game.

In each of these 3 images, BOTH projectors are on that screen! I did left/right halves by covering half of each lens with a dvd case. They blend together for a little bit in the middle.

Look at the green time bar at the bottom, see where it gets a little dark and just a hair blurry? That's the crossover point. Now, who knows which is on left and right?

http://aycu30.webshots.com/image/6389/2005340664610237458_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2005340664610237458)

http://aycu23.webshots.com/image/7302/2000752860993277520_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000752860993277520)

http://aycu25.webshots.com/image/6944/2000758085185193767_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000758085185193767)

Hey Jacksonian,

Sorry to hear about the faulty iris. Did you find anything in either projector that looks like they will do vertical stretch (tall skinny people) for any of the HD signals? I hope they do so they can be used in a 2.35:1 CH setup.

Thanks

Edit: I couldn't even tell there are two projectors there, much less which one is which.

Looks like the TW1000 is going to be making another journey across the ocean. Waiting for an RMA to send it back, they said it's up to Epson whether to repair or replace and that it could take a month to get it back. Will keep you guys posted.

Nice trick! Looks like 1000 on left and 700 on right.

Good luck with your return.

That's what I say too, 1000 on left and 700 on right.

I agree, 1000 on left and 700 on right.

It will be interesting to see your results with a new 1000. The auto iris errors makes one wonder if it is functioning properly in the 10 minutes before the error appears. Maybe it isn't working at all and it takes the PJ 10 minutes to realize it. If I was you I would hold some of my judgements with regards to the 1000 back until you have a unit that works properly.

. If I was you I would hold some of my judgements with regards to the 1000 back until you have a unit that works properly.

Actually, I searched and found no judgement that he made on the TW1000, apart from that it's less bright than the TW700, and that it's hard to spot more details than with the TW700 (something that isn't going to change with a new TW1000).

The auto iris errors makes one wonder if it is functioning properly in the 10 minutes before the error appears. Maybe it isn't working at all and it takes the PJ 10 minutes to realize it.

I have the same douts if the AI works at all.The people who watched new Panasonic PT-AE1000U with D6 panel reported real inky inky blacks.

On the screenshots and comment there is no significant difference in black between TW1000/TW700. Maybe the AI doesnt work at all on the TW1000? :(

Hold on, folks, you guys are making assumptions here. I can turn the iris on and off and see a subtle effect, but not a huge one. But the rest of my testing was done with BOTH pjs iris off. So the native panel contrast improvement of D6 over D5 should still be evident and the comparison is fair. It's not that I'm using the iris on the TW700 but not on the TW1000--that is completely false.

And one person's definition of "inky blacks" may differ from mine.

I think the blacks are slightly better on the TW1000, but not a drastic difference. It is a huge improvement over my Panasonic's D4 panels though.

Jacksonian, you make the TW1000 seem like a very dubious purchase. It cost 2X the price of the TW700, yet the TW700 has no screen door above 1.5X, offers a similar level of detail as the TW1000, is much brighter than the TW1000, and has almost the same black levels of the TW1000 (without auto iris).

I'm still waiting to hear the killer feature that the TW1000 has, that will make it worth my while to invest so much money in it.

On a side note, the D6 panels suppose to have much better black levels than the D5 panels. Now, you claim you don't see such big differences, so could it be that the D5+ panels (that the TW700 has), are also much improved regarding black levels, in comparison to the D5, or maybe Epson just exaggerated about the D6 claims ?.

Btw, art from projectorreviews claims that the Panasonic AE1000, has black levels which are comparable to those of a good Darkchip3 DLP pj (in most scenarios), and I haven't heard such claims with any D5 panel, so this leads to believe Epson did not exaggerated.

I would have guessed the 1000 to be on the right. But I did not look at the picture but only used the time stamps on the bottom. And I would say the white numbers on the right are sharper.

But as I said, I only looked at the numbers and not the picture because on my notebook with 1024*768 there really isn't that much point in comparing. You just keep scrolling left and right and zooming in and out :(

Will you be getting a Panasonic next? To add to your test? :D

STOP THE PRESSES!

I've found the big difference between these two (besides one working correctly and another not).

It was hard to do since I only have 10 minute spurts with the TW1000, but I finally got a dark movie in a dark room with these two.

I'm going to try to show you in 2 screen shots, but the effect is subtle with the camera I think. But in reality, it's not close. It's a big difference in blacks. OK, I say "big", I mean maybe 50% darker? You can still make shadow puppets with the TW1000, but it makes the TW700 look like a LED flashlight in comparison.

Same distance, same Theater Black 1 mode, same camera, same frame of Batman Begins on HD-DVD with the new Toshiba HDA2

http://aycu06.webshots.com/image/8125/2002049182220152189_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002049182220152189)

http://aycu39.webshots.com/image/8158/2002051903355243033_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002051903355243033)

Jacksonian, you make the TW1000 seem like a very dubious purchase. It cost 2X the price of the TW700, yet the TW700 has no screen door above 1.5X, offers a similar level of detail as the TW1000, is much brighter than the TW1000, and has almost the same black levels of the TW1000 (without auto iris).

I'm still waiting to hear the killer feature that the TW1000 has, that will make it worth my while to invest so much money in it.

On a side note, the D6 panels suppose to have much better black levels than the D5 panels. Now, you claim you don't see such big differences, so could it be that the D5+ panels (that the TW700 has), are also much improved regarding black levels, in comparison to the D5, or maybe Epson just exaggerated about the D6 claims ?.

Btw, art from projectorreviews claims that the Panasonic AE1000, has black levels which are comparable to those of a good Darkchip3 DLP pj (in most scenarios), and I haven't heard such claims with any D5 panel, so this leads to believe Epson did not exaggerated.
Jones_Rush,
Your post inspired me to fight through the constant restarts with the TW1000 tonight to get it in a dark room with a dark movie. Bingo, there's the difference.

I'm actually shocked at what Epson was able to do with the D6 panels.

Does anyone remember this press release and photos?
(simulated, I think):
http://www.epson.co.jp/e/newsroom/2005/news_2005_05_24.htm

I would have to say that's pretty damn close to what I see *on dark material*. I can't say that with a mixed bright scene that it's quite that dramatic, but it's close. Going from the D4 panels to the D6 panels is even more dramatic than that photo shows.

Now both of these pjs had the auto iris off, so I can't tell you if that would improve things even more.

So, here's my final summary:
If you are into blacks, you MUST get the TW1000 over the TW700. There's no contest. And in a movie like Batman Begins, it changes from a lackluster gray festival to a very satisfying rich black contrast film.

If you always watch with ambient light or don't care about blacks, then get the TW700.

Honestly, in bright movies (or obviously the brighter screenshots I showed you before) the TW700 holds its own and is actually a little better due to its brightness.

But in a room with the lights out and any dark scenes, it's a big difference in favor of the TW1000.

Sorry it took so long to get to the meat of the issue, but the TW1000 acting up made it incredibly difficult to get a comparison in a dark room.

So now I have to ship it back and wait for it to come home again. Who wants to buy the TW700?

jacksonian, great work with all of the testing. Those last two shots really show a difference to my eyes. The TW1000 has much better blacks as you stated. The TW700 almost looks washed out. Looking at the lips and eye show better resolution on the TW1000.

Nah, I still can't see any better resolution between the two. I took that picture from about 6 or 7 feet, so you may be seeing a slightly smoother picture from the TW1000, but I don't think there's any more detail.

Jacksonian:

Do you know what the Theater Black 1 setting on the TW1000 ( and the TW700 ) equates to on the 810 version. I'm guessing it would be Cinema night, but we also have Natural and Cinema Day.

Mark

It wouldn't be Natural, that's on these 2 and it's brighter. Not sure if it would be Cinema Night or Day.

It's probably Cinema night, then. I currently own the 810, but your slide comparison, and the link to the new technology does give one the urge to upgrade (someday). Was the TW1000 quite a bit cheaper than the projected list on the American version (1080P).

Mark

jacksonian, the weird part of the TW700 batman image (2nd image) above is that it appears from the photo that the purple/non-black area is restricted to the center of the image. If this is the case, then there is something weird. Is this how you perceived it in reality?

I got the TW1000 for the list on the 810. I imported from Japan. But of course, I will need to add a couple hundred bucks to that purchase price for round trip shipping to Japan for service tomorrow.

Jacksonian:

Thanks for the info. Hopefully, your experience with the return goes well.

Mark

jacksonian, the weird part of the TW700 batman image (2nd image) above is that it appears from the photo that the purple/non-black area is restricted to the center of the image. If this is the case, then there is something weird. Is this how you perceived it in reality?
That bright purple-ish area is coming from the camera, it's not like that on the screen. I'm not sure what the camera was picking up there. I think it may actually be getting the light from that window over his shoulder? It only does it on the 700 image, maybe having to do with the contrast? But that's not how the image looks in reality.

Damn it, why couldn't Epson create a 720p D6 panel...

Thanks Jacksonian.

Jacksonian,

There is something that bugs me about your findings regarding black levels.

The TW700 is significantly brighter than the TW1000, and hence even if its panels have the same CR as the TW1000's, the blacks will look brighter for the same screen size, because more light is being pumped through the panels.

I can think of two ways to see if the brightenss difference is indeed the element which is responsible for the black levels difference between these two pj's:

1. Use an ND filter on the TW700 (which cuts about 30% of the light), then see if the black levels of the TW700 are more similar to those of the TW1000. I am 100% positive they will look less gray, maybe even dramatically.

2. Bring the TW1000 closer to the wall, so it will produce an image with the same brightness levels as the TW700 gives for a bigger image. The black levels of the TW1000 for the smaller screen, might appear now much grayer, and closer to the TW700's.

One more thing comes to mind, in the dark "Batman Begins" pic, if auto iris was on for both projectors, the difference in black levels might have been much smaller, since the iris would have closed all the way.

What is your opinion about shadow detail in batman's very dark scene? Is it comparable with similar priced DLPs like for example Mitsubishi HC3100 with DC3?

What is your opinion about shadow detail in batman's very dark scene? Is it comparable with similar priced DLPs like for example Mitsubishi HC3100 with DC3?
I have absolutely zero experience with any of the current DLPs.

Jacksonian,

There is something that bugs me about your findings regarding black levels.

The TW700 is significantly brighter than the TW1000, and hence even if its panels have the same CR as the TW1000's, the blacks will look brighter for the same screen size, because more light is being pumped through the panels.

I can think of two ways to see if the brightenss difference is indeed the element which is responsible for the black levels difference between these two pj's:

1. Use an ND filter on the TW700 (which cuts about 30% of the light), then see if the black levels of the TW700 are more similar to those of the TW1000. I am 100% positive they will look less gray, maybe even dramatically.

2. Bring the TW1000 closer to the wall, so it will produce an image with the same brightness levels as the TW700 gives for a bigger image. The black levels of the TW1000 for the smaller screen, might appear now much grayer, and closer to the TW700's.

One more thing comes to mind, in the dark "Batman Begins" pic, if auto iris was on for both projectors, the difference in black levels might have been much smaller, since the iris would have closed all the way.
I hear what you're saying about the light output and black levels. I'm not smart enough to be able to tell you whether you are right or not.

However, from what I know about the D5 vs. D6 panels, what you're saying should NOT be the case. The D6 panels do a better job of blocking the light in the off position and from spill between pixels. So it's not just a brightness issue.

I can also say that in the dark room with the dark movie, I did not perceive the TW700 to be subjectively much brighter than the TW1000 (although I know that it is). The bright parts of that picture seemed about the same on both, but the black parts were very different.

You guys would have to see them side by side in the same room like I did to understand the effect. It's like you can clearly see the effect of the new D6 panel. It just looks like the D5+ panel can't hold the light back in the black areas, that's why I said it looked like a flashlight was shining on that one. It just gave the whole image a "washed out" look in comparison. (but only in comparison, the TW700 was entirely satisfying on its own).

I do think that there is a trade-off between blacks and brightness. Look at all the 1080p face-off numbers and all the reviews at projectorreviews. In "best cinema mode" for all of these projectors, they calibrated the lumens down to the 300-400 range.

I just don't think it's possible to throw an incredibly bright picture with very dark blacks. I'm not sure the laws of physics allow it. Seems like the light from the bright parts of the picture will inevitably diffuse and alter the black level of the surrounding picture. But I don't know.

As for the Auto Iris, my guess would be that it would have affected each one equally and not benefited either pj, but that's just my guess.

Just so no one gets lost in all the translation, I want to re-summarize.

TW700
-Beautiful picture
-Huge improvement over my Panasonic 500, well worth what I paid
-Very bright, awesome for ambient light viewing, you can easily have several lamps on in the room and have a good image for sports or TV
-SDE not noticeable at 8-10+ feet from a 106" screen
-All the detail you'll find from a BluRay or HD-DVD picture

TW1000
-No pixel structure visible up to 2-3 feet from a 106" screen
-Significantly improved blacks and contrast on dark movies in a dark room
-Much brighter than my Panasonic 500 with 400 lamp hours and plenty bright for dark room viewing on a 106" screen in Theater Black 1 mode with low lamp
-Remember the pics of the Chargers game with 2 lamps and 4 can lights (2 right in front of the screen) on in the room, definitely bright enough to watch some TV/Sports, just not as bright as the TW700

Bottom Line
Value-TW700
Brightness-TW700
Blacks-TW1000
Contrast-TW1000
SDE-TW1000

Is the TW1000 worth $1200 more from Japan or $2000 more in the US? That depends on what you want and how you define value.

If you want an all-purpose projector for a game room or family room, I think the TW700 is clearly the better choice. The extra lumens will be great and you would likely never notice the benefits of the blacks of the TW1000.

If you want a pj for movies in a usually darkened room with occasional TV/sports watching with a couple of lamps on and you value dark blacks and contrast, then clearly the TW1000 will be more satisfying for you and the extra lumens from the TW700 will be of no use to you anyway.

I'm in the second camp. I have a 60" plasma behind that motorized screen for daytime sports and TV viewing. When I watch movies, I usually watch at night in a dark room and the blacks on my Panasonic have always ruined it for me. So the TW1000 fits perfectly and I can afford it.

However, if I had stuck with my original plan and just ordered the TW700, I would have been very satisfied and $1200 richer. :D

I do think that there is a trade-off between blacks and brightness. Look at all the 1080p face-off numbers and all the reviews at projectorreviews. In "best cinema mode" for all of these projectors, they calibrated the lumens down to the 300-400 range.

Exactly my thoughts !.

It's like everyone expect the D6 panels to provide excellent black levels, so the manufacturers are doing whatever they can to please the customer.

I just don't think it's possible to throw an incredibly bright picture with very dark blacks. I'm not sure the laws of physics allow it. Seems like the light from the bright parts of the picture will inevitably diffuse and alter the black level of the surrounding picture. But I don't know.

If you have a room with black walls, it is possible. If your room has white walls, a gray screen will help.


As for the Auto Iris, my guess would be that it would have affected each one equally and not benefited either pj, but that's just my guess.
I guess we'll know for sure once the TW1000 returns from Japan...

Exactly my thoughts !.

It's like everyone expect the D6 panels to provide excellent black levels, so the manufacturers are doing whatever they can to please the customer.
I'm not sure we're on the same page. I think you're saying that they didn't crank up the lumens on the TW1000 because they wanted to show off the blacks? And that if they had the same lumens the blacks wouldn't be much better than the TW700? Is that what you're thinking?

But couldn't it be that they're thinking that anyone who would want one of these 1080p projectors would obviously be using it for cinema and not sports so go for the blacks, not the lumens?

I honestly don't know why the lumens are lower on the TW1000. I think it uses the same lamp as the TW700, but I'm not sure.

My point was that it doesn't seem to matter if it was SXRD (Pearl), DLP, LCD or what, all the pjs seem to be ending up at 300-400 lumens calibrated for correct colors in best cinema modes. I'm wondering if that's a limit of physics rather than the projector? I honestly don't know the answer.



If you have a room with black walls, it is possible. If your room has white walls, a gray screen will help.
I'm still not sure it's possible. It seems to me that light diffusing from a front projector would make it impossible. But I didn't do well in that chapter in Physics in college.


I guess we'll know for sure once the TW1000 returns from Japan...
Going to box her up now and get her shipped off. I guess I'll keep the TW700 until she comes back unless someone is dying for it now for Christmas.

I'm not sure we're on the same page. I think you're saying that they didn't crank up the lumens on the TW1000 because they wanted to show off the blacks? And that if they had the same lumens the blacks wouldn't be much better than the TW700? Is that what you're thinking?

Yes, these are exactly my thoughts. You can't expect to push more lumens through the panel, and not get worse blacks.

"Is the TW1000 worth $1200 more from Japan or $2000 more in the US? That depends on what you want and how you define value.

If you want an all-purpose projector for a game room or family room, I think the TW700 is clearly the better choice. The extra lumens will be great and you would likely never notice the benefits of the blacks of the TW1000.

If you want a pj for movies in a usually darkened room with occasional TV/sports watching with a couple of lamps on and you value dark blacks and contrast, then clearly the TW1000 will be more satisfying for you and the extra lumens from the TW700 will be of no use to you anyway."

This is an excellent summary and you have done an exceptional service to all of us. Thank you.

I guess the issue for me comes back to whether or not the TW700 is the best alternative among many bright PJs for its target use "If you want an all-purpose projector for a game room or family room,"

And are there better alternatives than the TW1000 for its intended use "If you want a pj for movies in a usually darkened room with occasional TV/sports watching with a couple of lamps on and you value dark blacks and contrast".

IMHO you've persuaded me that if I need a hold over PJ until the JVC is avaialbe, I'll go with the TW700 versus the other lower prced 720P projectors. But, as to the 1080P commitment, I'll either wait for the JVC or just wait longer until we get both bright and great blacks. I expect both to evolve very quickly over the next 24 months with the added benefit of dropping prices given the leaps in quality we've seen over the past 36 months.

Yes, these are exactly my thoughts. You can't expect to push more lumens through the panel, and not get worse blacks.
I disagree. I think you *might* expect that with the differences in the panels. If the D6 panels do a better job of blocking the light, then you could do that, right?

This is an excellent summary and you have done an exceptional service to all of us. Thank you.
You're welcome. Thanks for the compliment

I guess the issue for me comes back to whether or not the TW700 is the best alternative among many bright PJs for its target use "If you want an all-purpose projector for a game room or family room,"
I can't say for sure, but I think either the Panasonic AX100 or TW700 would be the best all around. I haven't seen the AX100, but I know some here have and preferred the Epson. I would be interested to see what Art from PR says.

And are there better alternatives than the TW1000 for its intended use "If you want a pj for movies in a usually darkened room with occasional TV/sports watching with a couple of lamps on and you value dark blacks and contrast".
I'm sure it would be an interesting comparison. I can't say, I haven't seen the Pearl, Mits, Panasonic 1080ps. I think each will have strengths and tradeoffs. But if you're willing to gamble like I did with an import, I think it's tough to argue against the TW1000 at its price point. And it may actually turn out to be brighter than any of the others.

IMHO you've persuaded me that if I need a hold over PJ until the JVC is avaialbe, I'll go with the TW700 versus the other lower prced 720P projectors. But, as to the 1080P commitment, I'll either wait for the JVC or just wait longer until we get both bright and great blacks. I expect both to evolve very quickly over the next 24 months with the added benefit of dropping prices given the leaps in quality we've seen over the past 36 months.
You're getting on that slippery slope. Let's assume the JVC is "better". But is it bright enough? Will it be bright enough at 500 hours? And if it is, is it worth *double* the price of the TW1000? Is the picture twice as good to you?

I'm not pushing the Epson and I don't have the answers to these questions. That's just the nature of the beast. You guys ask me if the TW1000 is worth xxx dollars more than the TW700. So someone will ask is the JVC worth $3k more than the Epson? Only you can decide the right answer for you.

I just don't think it's possible to throw an incredibly bright picture with very dark blacks. I'm not sure the laws of physics allow it. Seems like the light from the bright parts of the picture will inevitably diffuse and alter the black level of the surrounding picture. But I don't know.


This would be a issue for sequential and intra-scene CR.

On/Off would provide the range once output is set. Then On/Off can be used to determine what your black level would be,
White level/CR gives Black Level.

ANSI (checkerboard) would be a measure of your pj's ability to maintain low black level when white is part of the picture.

All of this is contingent on light control - an LED from a receiver can raise a black level considerably since its output can represent a large percentage of black level.

The room is a major factor in black level perception. Turn off your lights and wait for your eyes to adjust. If you can see your screen *that* is the level of black you would perceive (and measure) if the pj were capable of completely blocking light.

Make sure your friends wear black. ;)

ted

Jacksonian, I agree with your point of view. At the same time the RS1 on the AVS pre-buy is more like 1.5X the delivered price of the TW1000 with the added comfort of being a USA delivered product with a stellar reseller behind it.

In terms of value and risk, I think the bet on the import of the TX700 is much more in my comfort zone. I was tempted and actually contacted your retailer about the TX1000 but given your experience I will have to think twice as while I like the value I hate the hassle.

That's also the reason I've steered clear of Optoma in general and the Optoma 81 in particular: Too many operating issues and hassles. Joe Kane's Samsung and the Pearl are also in that boat.

I like to tweak but I hate dealing with manufacturers. It's just too much brain damage.

I thought that Epson would be better but your experience gives me pause. I think Mits seems to be very predictable and reliable when you follow the forum closely. Based on all the comments Mits has performance related issues that seem more indicated by their specs as opposed to disappointing either on reliability, not delivering on their promised performance, or unit to unit variation.

To me cutting edge is good but "bleeding edge" I've done many times and don't want to do anymore. :)

Jacksonian-

If you have not yet shipped the projector, can you tell me how big a picture you can project at 9 feet from the front of the projector? Thanks.

Make sure your friends wear black. ;)
Yeah, make your theater like a Blue Man Group performance. Have a closet full of jet black velvet jumpsuits with ski masks. Hand them out as everyone walks in. And nobody smile, that teeth white would kill the contrast :D

Jacksonian, I agree with your point of view. At the same time the RS1 on the AVS pre-buy is more like 1.5X the delivered price of the TW1000 with the added comfort of being a USA delivered product with a stellar reseller behind it.
Wow, so the AVS pre-order price was the same as the Mitsubishi MSRP? Is that correct? That's a great deal.

I'll send you a PM on the TW1000.

I thought that Epson would be better but your experience gives me pause. I think Mits seems to be very predictable and reliable when you follow the forum closely. Based on all the comments Mits has performance related issues that seem more indicated by their specs as opposed to disappointing either on reliability, not delivering on their promised performance, or unit to unit variation.
Well, I'm not ready to write Epson off as unreliable based on an N = 1. I think they actually have a pretty impressive reputation for quality. I'm attributing this to bad luck at the moment. And it sounds like I may have gotten the first one off the boat. I'll let you know when it comes back from Japan.

I put a note with the pj explaining what was happening and asked them to replace it with a new one since it seemed defective from the outset. I also asked that if they didn't replace it with a new one, could they please put in a new lamp since I was concerned having to do the short sessions may have affected lamp life (some folks say to never have your lamp on less than 2 hours for max lamp life).

So I'll let you guys know how long turnaround time is and what they did and how the new one works. PJ said it could take a month. But it will be in Japan Christmas day for $123. So roundtrip should be about $250. Provided it works the way it should, that means I'm still at the same price as the best price I've seen on the Mits.

My point was that it doesn't seem to matter if it was SXRD (Pearl), DLP, LCD or what, all the pjs seem to be ending up at 300-400 lumens calibrated for correct colors in best cinema modes. I'm wondering if that's a limit of physics rather than the projector? I honestly don't know the answer.

Great thread and lots of good information. Jacksonian, thanks for the experiments and the impressions of the Epsons.

Just to note, the JVC RS1 is looking like right around 700 lumens after calibration, with 15,000 CR (see cine4home preview of the unit), although it is at a higher cost then the TW1000. Cine4home goes through a nice description of the changes to JVCs DILA panels to improve CR, and is a good read. I imagine LCD and SXRD can be improved as well, and we aren't at the "physics won't allow better performance" stage yet.

Jacksonian-

If you have not yet shipped the projector, can you tell me how big a picture you can project at 9 feet from the front of the projector? Thanks.
Sorry, sent it in today. But I think the zoom range is exactly the same as the TW700/810. It's awful close if not the same.

The JVC sounds exciting, I just didn't want to be in the "videophile bandwagon" :D

Maybe they'll make a brighter one next year?

Sorry, sent it in today. But I think the zoom range is exactly the same as the TW700/810. It's awful close if not the same.
OK, thanks. I checked the PowerLite Pro Cinema 810 on Projector Central's calculator, and it looks like I would need 9.5 feet to get a 92" diagonal picture (I need 92" at 9 feet). Maybe they will have the PowerLite 1080 on there soon and I will verify it. I hope you get your TW1000 back soon... It looks like a great machine.

I hope the TW1000 is the PJ for me. I'm currently using a white Da-Lite 1.3 gain 137" 16:9 screen with my BenQ 8700, rated at 1000 lumens and 2500:1 CR. I'm hoping to go up to 1080p, go up a couple hundred lumens, AND go up to 10000:1 CR.

I'm hoping to find out sooner rather than later which of the 3 new LCD 1080p PJs (Panny, Mitsu, and Epson) is the brightest in real life at settings that preserve PQ (1100, 1000, and 1200 lumen ratings respectively). The Panny is spec'ed higher than the Mitsu, but PJcentral measured the Mitsu as 6% brighter. But I'm hoping the Epson is a clear winner over both.

If the TW1000 (1200 lumens spec) is 10-20% brighter than the Mitsubishi HC5000, I'd gladly pay 20-30% extra! But I'm not willing (rather, my wife isn't) to pay 200% of the price for 123% of the lumens (HD81 vs Mits HC5000)!

David

I have a tw700 (Jacksonian's sloppy seconds) and a Mitsu HC5000BL. I am going to be doing a side by side test of these two sometime around 2nd to the 4th of January if all goes as planned. My new media room is getting painted next week. Hopefully carpet by next weekend. And hopefully will be open for business with one of the pjs by New Years Day. Making my SMX, acoustic transparent screen next week and it will be 98" wide, 112" diag on a 1.78. Will have 1.16 gain and my room should be 100% light controlled, but also have a skylight with a light block so I can allow ambient light in to notice the brightness deltas.....

I have a tw700 (Jacksonian's sloppy seconds)...
Hey now! Those seconds are pristine! :D

Can't wait for your comparison. Maybe my TW1000 will be back home by then.

davedelite and jacksonian, I need to see to make a final decision on the HC5000 vs TW1000, but with a 137" screen, I do need max brightness. It would be really awesome if you could compare the HC5000 to the TW1000, maybe do a three-way with the TW700?

It was like pulling teeth to get the green light from the wife, now I'm itching to pull the trigger! Help!

David

Also, can anyone who has seen both the TW1000 and the Panny PT-AE1000U in action comment on the visible pixel structure between the two?

Thanks in advance.

David

davedelite and jacksonian, I need to see to make a final decision on the HC5000 vs TW1000, but with a 137" screen, I do need max brightness. It would be really awesome if you could compare the HC5000 to the TW1000, maybe do a three-way with the TW700?

It was like pulling teeth to get the green light from the wife, now I'm itching to pull the trigger! Help!

David
David,
davedelite will have a TW700 and HC5000 in the same room in a couple of weeks, so that might help give you some insight. It would have been perfect to have the TW1000 and Mits in the same room. But I'm in NC, and dave's in Texas. And I don't think I'd have any luck talking anyone into $3k sloppy seconds if I ordered the Mits to compare :).

I'm going to make a very strong educated guess after having seen the TW700 and TW1000 together that you would DEFINITELY want the TW1000 if you're going to use a 137" screen. There's no question in my mind that the TW1000 is going to be brighter than the Mits and you're going to need every possible lumen at that size.

I imagine the TW1000 and Mits are going to look EXTREMELY similar both using the D6 panels without any smoothscreen type stuff. You should get the same blacks, same contrast, same invisible pixel structure, etc...

The Mits will be quieter, but the Epson will be brighter. And I think for 137", you have only one choice. And I'm not saying that because I bought one. I don't mind being the only TW1000 owner on the board :). But you're talking about a screen 33% bigger than mine.

Are you going to use a High Power screen?

Also, can anyone who has seen both the TW1000 and the Panny PT-AE1000U in action comment on the visible pixel structure between the two?

Thanks in advance.

David
Dave, I think I'm actually the only person who's ever seen the TW1000 on this side of the ocean. I haven't seen the AE1000. But I can tell you that on the TW1000, you just simply CANNOT see any pixels until you're 2-3 feet from a 106" screen. It's possible that the AE1000 may make that 1 foot, but does it really matter at that point?

And from the numbers in the PJC review, I don't think there's going to be any way that the AE1000 would be bright enough for your screen size.

David,
I'm going to make a very strong educated guess after having seen the TW700 and TW1000 together that you would DEFINITELY want the TW1000 if you're going to use a 137" screen. There's no question in my mind that the TW1000 is going to be brighter than the Mits and you're going to need every possible lumen at that size.

I concur with Jacksonian on most accounts, but I think it is fair to say his belief here is from inference and secondary research he has done on many reviews, etc. And, he has done much. But, frankly, I have not been satisfied with the very big inconsistencies and lack of normal control in many of these tests he, I, and many others have read, and I see some holes and this has made the issue very inconclusive for me. That is the very reason I want to see the tw700 and HC5000 side by side. (reference http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9231740&&#post9231740) where I lay out this issue of brightness comparisons causing me to really wonder if the HC5000 is much dimmer in the modes I would really use a pj in.

Now, Jacksonian can give you an unqualified comparison of side by side between the tw700 and tw1000 in "no iris operating" modes, but the HC5000 was not part of that test. Likewise, given time, I can give you some perspectives on the HC5000 vs. the tw700, but I will not have the tw1000 to do a direct comparison. Sorry. Now, if I come back to you and say at such and such multiple of screen width and a certain throw distance they were equal in relatively the same operating modes, etc. then we will know the HC5000 is brighter than the tw1000 because Jacksonian detected about a 20+% discount in brightness for most material on the tw1000 vs. the tw700. But, I suspect the HC5000 will be a discount in brightness to the tw700 and I might have to say something like x% and then it will be all qualitative because Jacksonian stated around 25% +/-.

Guess we will have to find out in due time. All I know right now is the following facts cause me caution in agreeing whole-heartedly with Jacksonian's inference until I witness it in person:

Supporting his inference:

1) The prevailing thought is that the 1080p projectors of sub $5k in this generation suffer from brightness relative to what you can get with a higher end 720p, but none of the "reviews" sources have performed a side by side with the 1080ps of sub $5k

2) The Epson 720ps are highly regarded for their brightness by many sources

3) Jacksonian performed very valid side by side of the tw700 and tw1000 and detected noticeable brightness capabilities of the tw700 over the tw1000 without auto iris operating.

4) The specs on the tw1000 of 1200 lumens would lead you to believe it is more capable of a bright picture than the HC5000 or the competing Panny.

Not supporting his inference are the following data points that cause me to explore the issue myself:

1) Someone from AV Sciences themselves (who will remain anonymous since I don't know the rules on this and will maintain as much etiquette as possible), who is highly regarded on this board, feels Epson is often aggressive in their lumens specifications.

2) Projector Central observed that in general the Mitsu was much more capable relative to its speced brightness than almost all pj's they test, and in fact in a side by side noticed a meaningful brightness advantage over the Panny that is rated 100 lumens greater. (Thus causing me to not be overly impressioned by a 100 or 200 difference in specified lumens ....now 500 difference I might not dismiss so readily)

2) The aforementioned discrepancies I detail in the post referenced in the link above (and subsequent posts) cause me to really wonder what "real world" experience in my environment I will detect.

This is the background for my curiousity. We will see what unfolds.

1) Someone from AV Sciences themselves (who will remain anonymous since I don't know the rules on this and will maintain as much etiquette as possible), who is highly regarded on this board, feels Epson is often aggressive in their lumens specifications.
Dave,
This is the only part that I'd really have to question. I would say the opposite, from everything I've read, Epson seems much more conservative in their lumen specs than other companies.

I can't make any sense out of the PJC 810 review. But the Australian review of the TW700 and AX100 show it putting out 2300 lumens when it's rated at 1600.

And not to be too cynical/skeptical about the AVS source, but does AVS sell Epson?

To back up what I said about Epson being conservative on their lumen specs (not aggressive as someone has told you), this is from ProjectorReview (Art's) review of the Epson 400 rated at 1500 lumens:

"In fact, the only home theater projector I can think of that may prove to be able to put a brighter image on the screen, in the under $2500 range, may be the just announced Panasonic PT-AX100U, which will be reviewed next. The new Panasonic is rated 2000 lumens vs. the Epson's 1500, but traditionally, Epson is the most conservative company out there, when it comes to rating their projector's brightness. I won't be at all surprised if the Cinema 400 proves to be every bit as bright as the Panasonic, and maybe even beat it by a few lumens. Stay tuned for the results.

Projector Brightness and Calibration

I'll start with measured brightness, in the different modes, from darkest (of those I measured) to brightest. Only Theater Dark 1 was measured pre and post calibration, and as I only calibrated Theater Dark 1, the others are "pre-calibration

* Theater Dark1: 468 lumens (pre calibration) 433 post calibration
* Theater: 515 lumens
* Living Room: 1107 lumens
* Dynamic: a breathtaking 1979 lumens"

So the Epson 400 rated at 1500 lumens threw 1979 lumens in Art's review. The Epson TW700 rated at 1600 lumens threw 2383 lumens in the Australian review.

So I have a hard time believing that Epson is "aggressive" in their lumen ratings. If anything, they've underestimated the lumen output by a full 33% on both of those.

Dave,
This is the only part that I'd really have to question. I would say the opposite, from everything I've read, Epson seems much more conservative in their lumen specs than other companies.

I know. I took that observation as well.

But the Australian review of the TW700 and AX100 show it putting out 2300 lumens when it's rated at 1600.

True, but the absolutes of that article is less interesting than the relative performance that illustrated a benefit to the tw700. No way of comparing the absolutes to the other sources of review since there is no standardization.

Dave,
And not to be too cynical/skeptical about the AVS source, but does AVS sell Epson.

No, and that is duly noted. But, when I inquired to that person and told him what I was considering the first words out of his mouth was, "we don't carry Epson, but that is a nice piece." Likewise, what I gathered from that Australian site is that it was affiliated with Epson due to the number of Epson advertisements I saw every time I visited it. But, I have not proof of that. But I would be surprised if they was no affiliation.

Dave, make sure you didn't miss my 2nd post with Art's #'s and comments.

To back up what I said about Epson being conservative on their lumen specs (not aggressive as someone has told you), this is from ProjectorReview (Art's) review of the Epson 400 rated at 1500 lumens:

"In fact, the only home theater projector I can think of that may prove to be able to put a brighter image on the screen, in the under $2500 range, may be the just announced Panasonic PT-AX100U, which will be reviewed next. The new Panasonic is rated 2000 lumens vs. the Epson's 1500, but traditionally, Epson is the most conservative company out there, when it comes to rating their projector's brightness. I won't be at all surprised if the Cinema 400 proves to be every bit as bright as the Panasonic, and maybe even beat it by a few lumens. Stay tuned for the results.

Projector Brightness and Calibration

I'll start with measured brightness, in the different modes, from darkest (of those I measured) to brightest. Only Theater Dark 1 was measured pre and post calibration, and as I only calibrated Theater Dark 1, the others are "pre-calibration

* Theater Dark1: 468 lumens (pre calibration) 433 post calibration
* Theater: 515 lumens
* Living Room: 1107 lumens
* Dynamic: a breathtaking 1979 lumens"

So the Epson 400 rated at 1500 lumens threw 1979 lumens in Art's review. The Epson TW700 rated at 1600 lumens threw 2383 lumens in the Australian review.

So I have a hard time believing that Epson is "aggressive" in their lumen ratings. If anything, they've underestimated the lumen output by a full 33% on both of those.


OK...so there is some really good evidence of the tw700's brightness. I cry off on that issue. But, I am still gonna plead "Missouri Show Me" insofar as the the comparison in my set-up vis-a-vis the HC5000BL only because I can do so. Also, I am not going to make many inferences on a "rated" 200 delta between the 1200 on the tw1000 and the 1000 on the HC5000BL when the 1100 on the Panny was much less in operation at full wide angle than the HC5000BL was at full wide angle per PJC, and we know that to the extent zoom factor as used impacts real brightness than mid-range the Mitsu will be less impacted with only a 1.6x than either the Panny or the Epson's at 2:1 zoom ranges. Don't forget that when making an inference between the tw1000 and the HC5000BL.

And, while many discredit PJC and I have no reason to defend them, if we at least grant them apples to apples in the consistency of their brightness tests then we can infer that the actual brightness of the tw1000 and HC5000BL might not be so dis-similar. Here is why...again, all relative to their common tests as a fundamental thesis for this logic.

HC5000BL rated at 1000, pjc tests measured at 918. That is 91.8% of rated. 810 rated at 1600 and measured at 1390 (again, by their test..) for 87% of rated. Also, HC5000BL suffered 24% decrease along the zoom range and the 810 suffered 43% +/- due to greater zoom range. Let's say, that at some point in the zoom range they are both at a 50% discount. So, taking for the MItsu 1000 x [1-(.24/2)] x (918/1000) = 808 lumens. Meanwhile, if the tw1000 had a similar realized lumens to specced lumens ratio based on the pjc test methodology, it would be 1200 x [1-(.43/2)] x (1390/1600) = 818 lumens which might put them both in the same ballpark at some middling point of the zoom range.
Point being, even if they both performed actual to the rated specs in a perfect world (1000 and 1200), the brightness of the two might not be as different as the spec would illustrate because of the discount applied to zoom range.....

Is the TW-1000 going to be offered here in the U.S. or will we see it as the Procinema 1080p? I looked through the manuals of the lesser models and they don't seem to do the necessary stretches for an anamorphic lens, but I'm still hoping this on does! I bet we will here more about it at CES.

It will be the Procinema 1080.

I took those at such an extremely close distance to prove a very specific point: that you cannot see more detail in the 1080p pj image even at close distance with some of the best consumer grade material available to normal AVS'ers.



I just wanted to chime in, in case anyone was wondering why this is.

Sampling.

Now I'm not the most technical person, but from how it was explained to me, as long as you are sampling at or above what is known as the "Nyquist Limit" you'll retain nearly all the available information. If you sample below that point, aliasing occurs. There's all kinds of information about Mr. Nyquist on-line (wikipedia, audio samples and others) if anyone is really interested, so I won't bother to repost anything here.

For the best possible image you'll want the best possible source material. That would mean the best possible sample from the original source material (film, 2K, 4K or hd). Subsampling 720 from a native 1080 source is above the Nyquist limit, so you'll retain almost ALL of the visual data.

I noticed about a year ago there's was a lot of hoopla about native 1080 Plasma/LCD screens at a premium cost and consumers/reviewers were not seeing a real benefit- it all boiled down to the screen size and viewing distance. Same thing as far as resolution goes in the native 720 vs 1080 projection debate; it shouldn't be an issue for most people unless they make the projection screen too big and/or sit too close.

With the correct mathematical calculation of size and distance any projected image from 480 to 4K (or more or less), could conceivably look the same to the human eye. The sized of the screen/immersive viewing experience would NOT be the same, but the amount of perceived detail would be.

Not meaning to hijack the thread, I just noticed that Jacksonian mentioned this a few times so I figured I'd offer up the why. I think I've summerized it all fairly correctly, but if I've got part of this wrong and someone would like to chime in, that would be great.

That all being said, I've got the Cinema 400 right now, and from my viewing distance I doubt I'd see any real difference in resolution if I upgrade to the TW1000. But the extra contrast level sure does make it tempting, and I would be able to move my front row of seats closer to give the back row more leg room. :)

I.

Illya,
Thanks for the background. You wouldn't see any improvement in resolution, but I have to admit that the blacks and contrast and lack of pixel structure forced me to keep the TW1000 and sell the TW700. But it was a tough call. I would surely have been happy with the TW700.

jacksonian,

So did you resolve the auto-iris problem or has it begun its trip over seas?

jacksonian,

So did you resolve the auto-iris problem or has it begun its trip over seas?
Funny you should ask. I shipped it last Friday and it was received Tuesday (was supposed to be Monday I think, but customs held it up). They just sent me an email an hour ago saying that it had been replaced with a new projector and they were ready to ship it back right now. I sent them the shipping fee PayPal, so hopefully it will be back home early next week!

So that should be just about 10 days actual time round trip for service. Not bad to Japan in my book.

Crap, now I have to get my carpenter to re-design my projector box real quick so I can get it mounted! :D Yay, good problems!

Funny you should ask. I shipped it last Friday and it was received Tuesday (was supposed to be Monday I think, but customs held it up). They just sent me an email an hour ago saying that it had been replaced with a new projector and they were ready to ship it back right now. I sent them the shipping fee PayPal, so hopefully it will be back home early next week!

So that should be just about 10 days actual time round trip for service. Not bad to Japan in my book.

Crap, now I have to get my carpenter to re-design my projector box real quick so I can get it mounted! :D Yay, good problems!

Outstanding! Glad to hear it :)

Here is a subjective question...given how the TW1000 looks on your type & size of screen, do you *feel* it would have enough lumens (when using your preferred dark Theatre mode) for a 113" image? For you, does the image brightness have some extra headroom or do you feel that you wouldn't go any bigger than your current 106" screen? I ask only because we have very similar setups, environment, and viewing tastes.

Thanks again for all of your time, work and valuable input. All the best to you and your family in the New Year.

I noticed about a year ago there's was a lot of hoopla about native 1080 Plasma/LCD screens at a premium cost and consumers/reviewers were not seeing a real benefit- it all boiled down to the screen size and viewing distance. Same thing as far as resolution goes in the native 720 vs 1080 projection debate; it shouldn't be an issue for most people unless they make the projection screen too big and/or sit too close.

With the correct mathematical calculation of size and distance any projected image from 480 to 4K (or more or less), could conceivably look the same to the human eye. The sized of the screen/immersive viewing experience would NOT be the same, but the amount of perceived detail would be.

But Ilya, the thing is, if you want to recreate the cinema-feel at your home with 2.35:1 movies (cinemascope), you will have to sit closer than 1.5X the screen width (you always sit closer than 1.5X at the cinema). To sit that close and still see a smooth image, you'll have to go to 1080 projectors.

Outstanding! Glad to hear it :)

Here is a subjective question...given how the TW1000 looks on your type & size of screen, do you *feel* it would have enough lumens (when using your preferred dark Theatre mode) for a 113" image? For you, does the image brightness have some extra headroom or do you feel that you wouldn't go any bigger than your current 106" screen?
I definitely think the TW1000 has enough lumens even in Theater Black mode for a 113" picture (now remember I'm using minimum throw distance--the shortest distance that you can project an image that big--so that helps).

If I *could* go bigger, I probably would. 106" at 12 feet is great. But I'd love to go 120". But I don't think I have a) the throw distance (room's only 15 feet deep) and b) I'd have to completely change my room and get rid of the Salamander cabinets at the front of the room under the screen.

I have a 1.1 gain gray screen (Da-Lite HCCV). I've really been toying with the idea lately of going with a High Power screen, even though my ceiling mount wouldn't get the maximum benefit from it. I've ordered a sample of High Power just to see if it makes a big difference. I'm kind of hoping it doesn't. Because if it does, I'm going to want to do it and my wife's going to want to kill me. :D

Definitely if you can use a higher gain screen like a 1.3 or more, you could use the Epson for a much bigger screen.

If no one does a review soon, I might have to buy a light meter just to see what the TW1000 is really putting out. But it definitely seems quite bright.

But Ilya, the thing is, if you want to recreate the cinema-feel at your home with 2.35:1 movies (cinemascope), you will have to sit closer than 1.5X the screen width (you always sit closer than 1.5X at the cinema). To sit that close and still see a smooth image, you'll have to go to 1080 projectors.
I agree with that 100%. I find myself wanting to sit closer or go bigger, and the 1080p really lets you do that with a complete absence of pixel structure.

I definitely think the TW1000 has enough lumens even in Theater Black mode for a 113" picture (now remember I'm using minimum throw distance--the shortest distance that you can project an image that big--so that helps).

If I *could* go bigger, I probably would. 106" at 12 feet is great. But I'd love to go 120". But I don't think I have a) the throw distance (room's only 15 feet deep) and b) I'd have to completely change my room and get rid of the Salamander cabinets at the front of the room under the screen.

I have a 1.1 gain gray screen (Da-Lite HCCV). I've really been toying with the idea lately of going with a High Power screen, even though my ceiling mount wouldn't get the maximum benefit from it. I've ordered a sample of High Power just to see if it makes a big difference. I'm kind of hoping it doesn't. Because if it does, I'm going to want to do it and my wife's going to want to kill me. :D

Definitely if you can use a higher gain screen like a 1.3 or more, you could use the Epson for a much bigger screen.

If no one does a review soon, I might have to buy a light meter just to see what the TW1000 is really putting out. But it definitely seems quite bright.

Thanks Jacksonian, that was I was hoping to hear :)

Wow, now that Epson released the TW1000 in japan for less than $3,000, the low end price for 1080p has dropped. The MItsubishi HC5000 and the Panasonic AE1000 now sell for under $3,000. Every 1080p projector I see advertised there is considerably cheaper except for the Pearl which still commands a higher price.

Its almost insane to buy a US 1080p projector from Mitsubishi, Panasonic, or Epson after seeing how fast and easy they droped their prices. Wonder what the JVC will sell at when it is out. No doubt, a $3k 1080p released here would have the same effect. The sooner the better.

Funny you should ask. I shipped it last Friday and it was received Tuesday (was supposed to be Monday I think, but customs held it up). They just sent me an email an hour ago saying that it had been replaced with a new projector and they were ready to ship it back right now. I sent them the shipping fee PayPal, so hopefully it will be back home early next week!

So that should be just about 10 days actual time round trip for service. Not bad to Japan in my book.

Crap, now I have to get my carpenter to re-design my projector box real quick so I can get it mounted! :D Yay, good problems!

Hey dude! Glad to hear Epson Japan is living up to it's excellent reputation. That was amazingly fast too.

Over the past holiday week we've had lots of friends and family over watching movies. They've all be floored by seeing the 810 in action. My cousin wants to buy one. I told him about the Japan imports but he has a really low tolerance for risk despite being an airline pilot, go figure.

I'm toying around with the idea of selling him mine(which he said he would jump on in a minute) and move up to the jpn import TW1000. Nothing definite yet, but I'd be able to get the TW1000 for the same money i'd sell him my 810 for. Hmmmmm. You know... it's that disease many of us on AVS have...'upgraditis'.
Now that Epson japan did you right, I'm even more impressed with them. It's hard to resist the temptation.

On another note, my wife got me a Toshiba HD-A2 for xmas, she's a doll...my wife I mean. Hooked up to the 810 the A2 is most impressive. HD is simply stunningly nice on it. Was surprised that the A2 does such great job upscaling SD to the 810 too.

Joe

Hey dude! Glad to hear Epson Japan is living up to it's excellent reputation. That was amazingly fast too.
Yeah, good to know it's a company worldwide policy to give good service!

I'm toying around with the idea of selling him mine(which he said he would jump on in a minute) and move up to the jpn import TW1000. Nothing definite yet, but I'd be able to get the TW1000 for the same money i'd sell him my 810 for. Hmmmmm. You know... it's that disease many of us on AVS have...'upgraditis'.
Now that Epson japan did you right, I'm even more impressed with them. It's hard to resist the temptation.
Looks like it's about $65 cheaper now than when I bought a few weeks ago. I'd check with Superfly77 and see if he could get you one with the international warranty at a good price. I ended up paying $279 round trip air fare to Japan for mine, so I just figured that into my total cost.

It is tough to pass up the 1080p at that price. You'd sacrifice just a little bit of lumens for a completely smooth pixel free picture at just about any distance and the better blacks.

Plus, you could help me tweak mine! :D Come on, I need at least ONE other person in the country to share tips with!

Jacksonian.......

Remember that the HP screen gain not only falls off with vertical angles due to your ceiling mount, but also horizontally...

I was thinking about purchasing the HP as it does a great job for the price... during my "shootout" experience with the Pearl and HD-81. We were viewing a 133" HP in a "bat-cave" at about 13' from the screen.... and the full force of the gain was only available for the width of a 3 person couch.... move outside that couch and the lumens fell off dramatically!

If you come up with some lumen numbers they would certainly be interesting!

Yeah, I know about the limited viewing cone. Horizontally it's ok for 95% of our viewing, just me and my wife in the sweet spot. I'm more worried about the vertical with my ceiling mount.

I've ordered a sample to see if I can tell how it would look. But I'll probably stick with what I have. The hassle of taking down the Cosmo Electrol and putting up a new one and explaining to the wife why I'm doing all that and getting rid of a perfectly good screen probably isn't worth it.

Jacksonian.......

Remember that the HP screen gain not only falls off with vertical angles due to your ceiling mount, but also horizontally...

I was thinking about purchasing the HP as it does a great job for the price... during my "shootout" experience with the Pearl and HD-81. We were viewing a 133" HP in a "bat-cave" at about 13' from the screen.... and the full force of the gain was only available for the width of a 3 person couch.... move outside that couch and the lumens fell off dramatically!

If you come up with some lumen numbers they would certainly be interesting!

Steve, is the HP's cone really that narrow ? I figure a 3 seater is about 80" wide so on a 133" screen, that sounds pretty like a very narrow cone.

I was thinking of getting an HP also. I've gotten really used the bright higher lumen pic on the 810 and being able to have a hockey game on with some lights on during a card game with the guys is a great thing.

If I do decide to go 1080p, the Epson is my best and brightest bet of the current crop. I was hoping that the combo of the TW1000 and the HP would do the trick.

What other high gain screens should we be considering ? Preferably angular reflective for a ceiling mount.

Plus, you could help me tweak mine! :D Come on, I need at least ONE other person in the country to share tips with!

Yah yah as if my inner voice nagging at me isn't enough. I'll see if Supa can get the HK version of the TW1000 with int'l wrnty.

Steve, is the HP's cone really that narrow ? I figure a 3 seater is about 80" wide so on a 133" screen, that sounds pretty like a very narrow cone.

I was thinking of getting an HP also. I've gotten really used the bright higher lumen pic on the 810 and being able to have a hockey game on with some lights on during a card game with the guys is a great thing.

If I do decide to go 1080p, the Epson is my best and brightest bet of the current crop. I was hoping that the combo of the TW1000 and the HP would do the trick.

What other high gain screens should we be considering ? Preferably angular reflective for a ceiling mount.

Unfortunately I do not fib...... the cone is that narrow... I think the sweetspot was reported on the HP to be about a 7.5 degree cone. If it works in your room it is a terrific screen, but very limited.

I have tried a Draper 2.5 gain, but felt it shifted the color too much.

The Vutec SilverStar is the only screen I know of that has a lot of gain and a wide viewing angle. It's max size is 121."

Goo reports thier CRT White to have a 1.8 gain, but I have not seen it evaluated by a "reliable" group.... it is reported to have perfect color, but I cannot guarantee the gain.

Vutec and Carada both have screens with a 1.4 reported gain... the Carada is the value leader in professional screens.

Optima makes a GreyWolf2 screen in 120" diag and it is quite in-expensive, but it is also retro-reflective like the HP.

Hey Guys, I've followed most of this post but with 300+ posts, I might have missed one.

What is this HP screen you are talking about?

Where have people in the US been getting these Epson TW700 projectors from?

It sounds like a perfect product - A bit brighter than the Z5, with less screendoor, but not on the blurvision side like the panasonic, and (hopefully) less money.

HP is a High Power screen from Da-Lite, it has a really high gain like 2.8 I think, so it's very bright. Read more here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9311702#post9311702

As for where to get one, you have to import from a source. I'll send you a PM with your choices.

Ceiling mount ruled out the HP for me, and I need a retractable so Carada was out.

I tried the graywolf but we both found the pebble pattern distracting. Also, the case is super-cheap (softer than a rain gutter) and the shipping packaging is total carp. UPS bent it so the case was dented upon arrival. I sent it back and invested in a Firehawk screen, which works great for my room.

Ceiling mount ruled out the HP for me,
I keep reading conflicting opinions on this. Obviously, you won't get the max 2.8 gain, but some say you still get a respectable 1.8-2.0 gain. I got a couple of small samples to try when my pj gets back.

Jacks.........

The cone is pretty narrow... one of the real techie guys here on avs I think it might have been Jason (daGame Pimp) up in Washington State (not AVS Jason) did some measurements with the HP screen and it falls off to below 1.0 gain at about 15 degrees if I remember the numbers correctly.

If your setup will fit with it's capabilities it is a terrific screen.... but like all "good deals" it does have some limitations.

Thanks, I think the TW1000 will be back tomorrow and I have the little samples they sent. I'll stick them up there just to see. But I really don't want to change my screen out.

Jacks..

Sorry if this has been asked previously. I understand that the TW1000 has a certified HDMI 1.3 connector. Any chance that you have tested this pj with a PS3 to determine if there is any diff in picture quality with the supposed Deep Colour support that 1.3 offers.

Deep color source material is not yet on the market so he can not test that yet. Playstation 3 video games are likely to be the first source.

any reviews out on this pj?

Haven't seen any yet. It's still really new overseas and not even released yet here in the US so it may be awhile unless Cine4home does one.

Haven't seen any yet. It's still really new overseas and not even released yet here in the US so it may be awhile unless Cine4home does one.

jacksonian, Do you know if there is an English language manual on line for this unit?

Best
Ray

The new TW-1000 arrived today. An 11 day turnaround with Christmas and New Year's in there, so not bad I would say!

Ray,
Haven't found an English manual for the TW1000 yet, been using the TW700 manual as most things are the same. It should be up on the Epson Hong Kong site soon.

Joe_Black, you're the master of finding those things, have you seen it posted anywhere?

The new TW-1000 arrived today. An 11 day turnaround with Christmas and New Year's in there, so not bad I would say!




Awesome news, if you were happy with the contrast/blacks without engaging the AI then you should be in for a pleasant surprise :)

So what's the situation with the auto-iris now? And what's your impression of the new pj?

Sorry guys, haven't even had a chance to fire her up yet. Was too busy watching my Deacs lose in a valiant struggle to Louisville.

I'll try to get it on tomorrow evening.

Jacksonian, please don't get me wrong, I'm pretty much positive my tiredness is affecting my reasoning skills, but still, could it be possible, that in your post above, you were in some vague way insinuating about a remote possibility that maybe there is a chance that there is something more important in your life today, than to fire up the TW1000, and provide yourself and us the so much awaited head to head comparison between the TW1000 and TW700, with dynamic iris on ?.

Again, I'm positive you have no shred of the above thinking in your mind, and tomorrow when I'll read my post I'll laugh that I even had to ask such silly and trivial question. I'm sure there is a reasonable explanation to the short delay we are experiencing with your review, something along the lines of a huge meteorite hitting your state killing millions, or else maybe the moon came out of orbit in a straight trajectory to the sun... but let's face it, it must be something bigger...(I'm turning on CNN now to find out).

Dear jacksonian

do you have any possibility to check whether the TW1000 will do 24 and / or 48 fps support?

I am very interested in that and I am also considering to get one from Japan because the german price will be some 4,600.- EUR or so

Can you recommend any special dealer?


Thanks for your excellent presentation and I am looking forward to your next posts!

jo-1

Welcome Jo-1. Nice to see you here.

@Jacksonian: Looking forward to your next review and set of tests.

Jacksonian, please don't get me wrong, I'm pretty much positive my tiredness is affecting my reasoning skills, but still, could it be possible, that in your post above, you were in some vague way insinuating about a remote possibility that maybe there is a chance that there is something more important in your life today, than to fire up the TW1000, and provide yourself and us the so much awaited head to head comparison between the TW1000 and TW700, with dynamic iris on ?.



Can't speak for him, but I'd be too busy watching movies to post any more :p Besides, I believe he no longer has the TW700 for direct comparison...

The new TW-1000 arrived today. An 11 day turnaround with Christmas and New Year's in there, so not bad I would say!

Ray,
Haven't found an English manual for the TW1000 yet, been using the TW700 manual as most things are the same. It should be up on the Epson Hong Kong site soon.

Joe_Black, you're the master of finding those things, have you seen it posted anywhere?

Wow very cool, 11 days replacement turnaround from Japan to the States during Xmas holidays is very impressive. nice.

Did a quick search, but nothing turned up on the TW1000 owners manual online. I'm guessing that since it's really only available/released in Japan so far, it'll be a little while before an english version gets posted somewhere.

So how's your new baby (TW1000)?

Joe

Ran it for a couple of hours last night and everything seems fine. Getting my new box put up Saturday am so I'll have it installed good then, for now I just have it on a table.

I'm trying to figure out how to calibrate this thing. There are settings for skin tone, color temperature, color saturation, and advanced settings for RGB and even another one with a bunch of letters. Where do you start?

I think I need the Google/Picasa version of a projector "I'm feeling lucky"!

Well start with the basics before playing with any advanced bells and whistles. With the DI ON adjust your brightness, contrast & sharpness with Avia. If you also have the avia blue filter handy adjust the color and tint settings (pretty easy the until the hue and saturation boxes stop flashing when looking thru a blue filter).

Then you have the choice to adjust and play with a few more bells and whistles to see what each one does by eye and see how you personally prefer impact to the image, or you can go further technical.

If you want to have some fun (if you consider this fun, some don't) playing around and learning some neat stuff at the same time get yourself a Spyder2 sensor by Colorvision (can be had real cheap for about 65-80$ get the Spyder2 Express package). Then head over to the calibration forum and start reading on all the free great calibration software that's flying around in there like HCFR and Calman among others.

It's pretty simple, place the Spyder2 sensor on a camera tripod (you can buy a special sensor mount for the spyder2 $10). The Spyder2 plugs into your laptop's usb port. You can run some of the different software off the forum to have the sensor take various readings like grey scale D65 color accuracy with nice fancy charts and so on. This gives you good snapshot and sense of what the projector is doing in what modes before even making any serious adjustments. For all you know it might already be very well calibrated, but at least now you'll have the graphs to know it. Honestly for a $80 total cost of getting the sensor, not much to lose and lots to learn. Depends on you really.

We're pretty lucky, up until a short time ago very few of us had access to tools and software like this unless we were in position to spend thousands of dollars on it.

Colorvision also has a SpyderTV Pro kits which essentially includes the same Sypder2 sensor as in the Express, but also gives you the software and hand holding wizards for calibrating your TV or FP, but that's a 600$ package. The software found in the calibration forum is just as good, but a little rough around the edges in that they don't have shiny little wizards telling you what to do step by step.

Joe

Well start with the basics before playing with any advanced bells and whistles. With the DI ON adjust your brightness, contrast & sharpness with Avia. If you also have the avia blue filter handy adjust the color and tint settings (pretty easy the until the hue and saturation boxes stop flashing when looking thru a blue filter).

Then you have the choice to adjust and play with a few more bells and whistles to see what each one does by eye and see how you personally prefer impact to the image, or you can go further technical.

If you want to have some fun (if you consider this fun, some don't) playing around and learning some neat stuff at the same time get yourself a Spyder2 sensor by Colorvision (can be had real cheap for about 65-80$ get the Spyder2 Express package). Then head over to the calibration forum and start reading on all the free great calibration software that's flying around in there like HCFR and Calman among others.

It's pretty simple, place the Spyder2 sensor on a camera tripod (you can buy a special sensor mount for the spyder2 $10). The Spyder2 plugs into your laptop's usb port. You can run some of the different software off the forum to have the sensor take various readings like grey scale D65 color accuracy with nice fancy charts and so on. This gives you good snapshot and sense of what the projector is doing in what modes before even making any serious adjustments. For all you know it might already be very well calibrated, but at least now you'll have the graphs to know it. Honestly for a $80 total cost of getting the sensor, not much to lose and lots to learn. Depends on you really.

We're pretty lucky, up until a short time ago very few of us had access to tools and software like this unless we were in position to spend thousands of dollars on it.

Colorvision also has a SpyderTV Pro kits which essentially includes the same Sypder2 sensor as in the Express, but also gives you the software and hand holding wizards for calibrating your TV or FP, but that's a 600$ package. The software found in the calibration forum is just as good, but a little rough around the edges in that they don't have shiny little wizards telling you what to do step by step.

Joe

I have a friend that recently got the SpyderTV non-pro and it didn't have FP listed on the box. I guess then it would work with third-party software. I'll have to give it a shot.

I have a friend that recently got the SpyderTV non-pro and it didn't have FP listed on the box. I guess then it would work with third-party software. I'll have to give it a shot.

Jager,
All colorvision's packages come with the same Spyder2 sensor. I suggested the cheapest (Spyder2 Express for 75$) and then use the free calibration software supported on the forum instead.

SpyderTV is for calibrating TVs only and priced with the sensor at around 199. SpyderTV Pro adds FP calibration, but at $600 a little too pricey.

For $75 for the Express it's fun and cheap way to get your feet wet and fine tune your projector at the same time.

Thanks, Joe. I bought DVE, is AVIA better? You know, I might still have AVIA around somewhere come to think of it.

So would you set the color temp to 6500 before everything else? And how would someone like me know how to adjust those advanced settings, or should those be left to ISF guys?

jacksonian-

I don't remember if you said how big your screen is, but if it is 92" diagonal or larger, could you test your TW1000 at maximum wide zoom from 9 feet away (108" from lens to screen) and tell me how big an image you can get, while your projector is still not mounted? I would love to know if it would work well in a small theater room like mine. Thanks.

jacksonian-

I don't remember if you said how big your screen is, but if it is 92" diagonal or larger, could you test your TW1000 at maximum wide zoom from 9 feet away (108" from lens to screen) and tell me how big an image you can get, while your projector is still not mounted? I would love to know if it would work well in a small theater room like mine. Thanks.
I'll try and check tomorrow night. My screen is 106" and right now it's sitting on a table at about 10'.

Thanks, Joe. I bought DVE, is AVIA better? You know, I might still have AVIA around somewhere come to think of it.

So would you set the color temp to 6500 before everything else? And how would someone like me know how to adjust those advanced settings, or should those be left to ISF guys?

DVE is just fine. It's a little less structured to navigate than AVIA but serves the same purpose. Don't forget to turn the iris on if it's not already tho :p Power to the lamp is also controlled by the DI algo so for the max benefit in CR and brightness DI should be on.

I would leave everything else where it is and get the Spyder2 sensor and try it out if you're going that route. That way you'd be able to report how well (or not) it was calibrated out of the box. If you change a whole bunch of things we'll never know.

If you do want to play around you could always reset everything back to factory reset too I suppose. No harm really. Just have fun with it. You have a nice projector. In fact I think you're the only one I know who has one.

Look at you! you're cutting edge dude. :cool:

You should get a bumper sticker that says
"If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space!"

Joe

jacksonian-

I don't remember if you said how big your screen is, but if it is 92" diagonal or larger, could you test your TW1000 at maximum wide zoom from 9 feet away (108" from lens to screen) and tell me how big an image you can get, while your projector is still not mounted? I would love to know if it would work well in a small theater room like mine. Thanks.

Chris you can also use the projector calc at projectorcentral on the 810. The TW1000 has the same 2.1 Fujinon lens as the Epson 810. So the calc on the 810 will give you all the same measurements/throws.


edit: just check pjc calc

at 9' your at 88"diag
at 9'4" your at 92"diag

You should get a bumper sticker that says
"If you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much space!"

Joe
Makes me think of an old Beavis & Butthead line where they were making fun of the monster truck show commercials:

"$5 buys you the whole seat...BUT YOU'LL ONLY NEED THE EDGE!"

Is there an easy way to measure light output objectively to see if there's a real benefit over the Mitsu in brightness/contrast? Specs are one thing, but the proof is in the puddin'.

If not, I think I'll get the Mitsu.

David

David,
To make a fair comparison, we'd need both projectors in the same room with the same equipment and that's not likely to happen anytime real soon unless someone wants to bring their Mits to my house. :)

still waiting for your review...patiently!

Makes me think of an old Beavis & Butthead line where they were making fun of the monster truck show commercials:

"$5 buys you the whole seat...BUT YOU'LL ONLY NEED THE EDGE!"

:) too funny.

I'm hoping hivi picks up the TW1000 soon. If it also comes with the 2yr int'l warranty like the TW 700, it'll certainly make it very very interesting and the lowest priced, brightest 1080p with a warranty.

:) too funny.

I'm hoping hivi picks up the TW1000 soon. If it also comes with the 2yr int'l warranty like the TW 700, it'll certainly make it very very interesting and the lowest priced, brightest 1080p with a warranty.

I've contacted them about the TW1000 and they said "Epson TW1000 is not released yet."

Would also be nice if we could find an English version of the owners manual....

I'll try and check tomorrow night. My screen is 106" and right now it's sitting on a table at about 10'.
That sounds great-if you are filling your 106" screen from anywhere near 10 feet, then 92" at ~9 feet should be no problem.

Chris you can also use the projector calc at projectorcentral on the 810. The TW1000 has the same 2.1 Fujinon lens as the Epson 810. So the calc on the 810 will give you all the same measurements/throws.
Joe-

Thanks. I did try that a while back and got the same 9.4 feet (I think jacksonian suggested the idea, in fact). What I do not know (and maybe someone here can tell me/us?) is whether the LCD panels in both models are the same size, and/or if it is possible either way to get a different throw ratio from the same lens but with two different sets of panels (as well as the other optics used with them). jacksonian's test result will be interesting, as it will address this very question.

I've contacted them about the TW1000 and they said "Epson TW1000 is not released yet."

Yep, I think it's only available in Japan at the moment. But I suspect places like HK won't be very long now. 28 benjamins with a 2yr international Epson warranty on a 1080p is going to be a hot ticket item.

Joe

Joe - which projector do you have? How valuable is the colorvision spider thing - if I get that - is there still a need for a DVE or avia test disk? What does it measure (color? Brightness?) Are there techniques for measuring the color off the screen (vs pointing the thing at the projector - as I assume a high contrast gray screen would calibrate differently than a high gain white)

It sounds like something I'd like to have (though Hopefully when I get my new PJ, I'll be so thrilled that I never use it!)

Thanks Joe for the tips on the Spyder2 will try today!

I've downloaded the software and patterns but is there a tutorial on just what to do with it, how to setup and run some basic tests?

What is the deal with the international warranties?

So if you buy from Japan you only get a Japanese warranty and have to send it back for repairs? But if you but from HK, you get an international warranty and can get it serviced in the US (or anywhere for that matter)? More details would be appreciated...
-Matt

Joe - which projector do you have? How valuable is the colorvision spider thing - if I get that - is there still a need for a DVE or avia test disk? What does it measure (color? Brightness?) Are there techniques for measuring the color off the screen (vs pointing the thing at the projector - as I assume a high contrast gray screen would calibrate differently than a high gain white)

It sounds like something I'd like to have (though Hopefully when I get my new PJ, I'll be so thrilled that I never use it!)

hey Jack,
I have an Epson 810 (US version of the TW700).

How valuable is the Spyder2 ? Not sure what you mean by valuable. It's a great low cost tool to get you started into the world of calibration. I like the Spyder because it's popular so its supported by most of the calibration software developers on the forum. For it's price avg of $70 and free software from the calibration forum you can't go wrong and there's some good free software to play with right now. There's certainly much more expensive sensor packages on the market going into the thousands.

The spyder2 itself is a sensor that will help you find out how well calibrated your projector is for very cheap. Once you get the graphs/readings on how close your colors are tuned to D65 and a gamma of 2.2, you can make adjustments to your projector to fine tune it. Besides if you're the type to like to play with this stuff it can be fun.

Some people do take readings with the spyder directly out of the lens, but most recommend placing it on a tripod facing the screen which makes more sense to evaluate what impact your screen has on the final picture characteristics and compensate accordingly.

You'll still need a copy of Avia or DVE for setting the basic brightness, contrast, sharpness, color & tint and generating test screens for the spyder.

Best thing you can do is read up on the calibration forum. There's some really bright people in there that can enlighten you much more than I can. Try to read up on HCFR and Calman programs.

Joe

Thanks Joe for the tips on the Spyder2 will try today!

I've downloaded the software and patterns but is there a tutorial on just what to do with it, how to setup and run some basic tests?

hi JackLT, the calibration forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=139) is the best place to learn about it. I spend a lot of time just reading in there. Lots of bright people in there ready to answer questions including the developers of the programs themselves.

Joe

While browsing Epson's HK site on the TW1000 I just realized that it looks like the HK version is going to be a black casing like the US and not white/silver Japan model !

Nice.
http://www.epson.com.hk/files/images/product_pics/Large%20Image/projectors/big_emp-tw1000.jpg


Epson HK TW1000 (http://www.epson.com.hk/en/prd_svc/prd_detail/overview.html?prdid=829)


What is the deal with the international warranties?

So if you buy from Japan you only get a Japanese warranty and have to send it back for repairs? But if you but from HK, you get an international warranty and can get it serviced in the US (or anywhere for that matter)? More details would be appreciated...
-Matt

Matt, we recently discovered that the Epson TW700 projectors sold in HK thru authorized dealers come with a 2yr international warranty included. The TW1000 should carry the same warranty from HK. I got ahold of the int'l warranty papers and a few of us also contacted both Epson HK and Epson US service to confirm this. I'd still suggest you confirm this yourself before buying anything rather than rely on anything posted in the forums.

Details and the forms on the int'l wrty were posted on the TW700 thread;
here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9351332&&#post9351332)
and
here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9355163&&#post9355163)

Joe

Good find Joe!

And thanks for the info on the spider.

That will give me another obsession to add to my collection!

Seriously it looks like a cool thing - I'm going to see if any of my Projector owning friends want to go in on one and split up the learning.

jacksonian-

I don't remember if you said how big your screen is, but if it is 92" diagonal or larger, could you test your TW1000 at maximum wide zoom from 9 feet away (108" from lens to screen) and tell me how big an image you can get, while your projector is still not mounted? I would love to know if it would work well in a small theater room like mine. Thanks.
Chris, I got exactly 92 inches from 9 feet.

Watched a couple of movies tonight and I must say:
1) I'm so pleased with the blacks, huge improvement over my old Panny (I know, not a fair fight). But I'm impressed with the new D6 panels.

2) With the almost total lack of pixel structure, I pulled my couch up to about 8 feet from the 106" screen. 1.0 screen widths, much more immersive.

3) I didn't see anyone mention it, but these Epsons have discrete ON and OFF buttons on the remote and you only have to press them ONCE. Huge convenience for those using universal remotes. My Harmony could never get the Toggle x 2 for off on the Panny correct. Nice touch Epson.

4) Also a good touch, there's no keystone adjustment (unless I just couldn't find it). Someone mentioned using the keystone adjustment on the Mits 5000 and I was dumbfounded why they would have a keystone on a home theater projector that has lens shift.

5) I enjoyed the heck out of my movies tonight :D

Well done Jacksonian! Enjoy your new toy and know that you are the envy of us all :)

Given the pricing, brightness, and flexible placement of this projector, for me this will be the real competitor to the JVC (at least so far). I eagerly await more reviews, etc. before having to finalize the decision. Thanks Jacksonian for all your input. Helped to convince me to go for the better blacks of the 1080p projectors.

Pedro,
If you're like me and use the pj almost always for movies in the dark, I think you'll really appreciate how much more immersive the picture is with the darker blacks.

Chris, I got exactly 92 inches from 9 feet.
Thank you for testing it. It may just work in my 10.5-feet-deep by 10-feet-wide "theater".

With the almost total lack of pixel structure, I pulled my couch up to about 8 feet from the 106" screen. 1.0 screen widths, much more immersive.
I love it! :)

Hi jacksonian.

I asked already but I shall repeat myself:

Did you have any chance to test 24 or 48 frames per second?

I am strongly considering the TW 1000 but this is one of my key questions still.

Thanks for your great summary of your impressions

rgds <=> jo-1

Chris, I got exactly 92 inches from 9 feet.
What was the source material, Standard dvd or HD?

What was the source material, Standard dvd or HD?
I put up the test pattern from the projector. So it's the 16:9 image from the pj.

Thank you for testing it. It may just work in my 10.5-feet-deep by 10-feet-wide "theater".

With the lens at 9 feet from the screen, that would leave you 18 inches of depth in your room. The TW1000 is 12" deep, so you'd have 6 inches left (probably need about 2-3 for cable entry). Intake is from the bottom, exhaust out the front, so you can put it as close to the wall as you want.

Hi jacksonian.

I asked already but I shall repeat myself:

Did you have any chance to test 24 or 48 frames per second?

I am strongly considering the TW 1000 but this is one of my key questions still.

Thanks for your great summary of your impressions

rgds <=> jo-1
jo-1,
How should I test for this? I'm assuming I'd need to use a pc?

How close do you sit for normal viewing? What I am trying to determine is if you can sit closer to the screen with upscaled standard DVD with this projector ?

hi jacksonian,

hope the iris woes are gone!

What color mode did you find best for viewing HD material? Also how much lens shift did u use and if so, notice any misconvergence?

Jacksonian, like you, I have a plasma display for "watching TV," and use the projector for movies. So, yes, I suspect the better blacks will be appreciated. So, it comes down to the Epson or the JVC....

2) With the almost total lack of pixel structure, I pulled my couch up to about 8 feet from the 106" screen. 1.0 screen widths, much more immersive.

Awesome. Do you think you enjoyed it enough to try and keep it that close permanently? (WAF could be a problem. ;) ) When the room and screen can support it, I think 1.0 SW will become the new "sweet spot" for 1080p, for the best combination of immersion and PQ (especially for 2.35:1 movies/scope screens).

With the lens at 9 feet from the screen, that would leave you 18 inches of depth in your room. The TW1000 is 12" deep, so you'd have 6 inches left (probably need about 2-3 for cable entry). Intake is from the bottom, exhaust out the front, so you can put it as close to the wall as you want.
This is great news! The Projector Central specs for the Epson 810 say it is 16" deep, so I figured the TW1000 was, as well. My current projector is a Toshiba 720p that is also 12" deep and hangs 4 inches away from the wall behind it, but I can decrease that with right-angle cables if necessary. The screen is a Da-Lite pull-down 2" away from the opposite wall, but I want to increase that to 5 inches and hang a 42" LCD (also 1080p, of course :) ) behind it. I think you just convinced me to buy a TW1000. Thank you again for all your tests and reviews.

How long before this is reddily available in the USA?

Watched a couple of movies tonight and I must say:
1) I'm so pleased with the blacks, huge improvement over my old Panny (I know, not a fair fight). But I'm impressed with the new D6 panels.

2) With the almost total lack of pixel structure, I pulled my couch up to about 8 feet from the 106" screen. 1.0 screen widths, much more immersive.

3) I didn't see anyone mention it, but these Epsons have discrete ON and OFF buttons on the remote and you only have to press them ONCE. Huge convenience for those using universal remotes. My Harmony could never get the Toggle x 2 for off on the Panny correct. Nice touch Epson.

4) Also a good touch, there's no keystone adjustment (unless I just couldn't find it). Someone mentioned using the keystone adjustment on the Mits 5000 and I was dumbfounded why they would have a keystone on a home theater projector that has lens shift.

5) I enjoyed the heck out of my movies tonight :D

Thanks for sharing your impressions!

As for nr 4) - I can't find any keystone adjustment on my Mitsubishi HC5000. And haven't heard it has that feature either. So unless it's very, very well hidden in the menus and left out of the manual, that function does not exist on the HC5000.

This is of course of no importance. :) Enjoy your projector! Just like you - the lack of screendoor effect on the 1080p panel and the increased depth of the picture is two things I really appreciate on this 1080p model.

It'll be interesting to see the european price level this spring on the 1080p models from Mitsubish, Epson and Panasonic.

This is great news! The Projector Central specs for the Epson 810 say it is 16" deep, so I figured the TW1000 was, as well. My current projector is a Toshiba 720p that is also 12" deep and hangs 4 inches away from the wall behind it, but I can decrease that with right-angle cables if necessary. The screen is a Da-Lite pull-down 2" away from the opposite wall, but I want to increase that to 5 inches and hang a 42" LCD (also 1080p, of course :) ) behind it. I think you just convinced me to buy a TW1000. Thank you again for all your tests and reviews.
PJC must have the dimensions mixed up, it's 16" wide, but 12" deep.

You're looking at a very similar setup to mine. I have a 60" Pioneer plasma on the wall behind my electric Da-Lite screen. It's slick, leaves about an inch or two of clearance as it rolls down.

Gives you the best of both worlds really.

jo-1,
How should I test for this? I'm assuming I'd need to use a pc?

can't your BluRay and your HD-DVD output 24/48 fps?

I'd assume that some of the 2nd generation of HD Players should already output these signal types - on a PC reclock should give you the opportunity to test.

I am hoping that the EPSON is capable of doing that. If you can not test it it's also o.k.

Never mind

jo-1

A PC or Laptop would be a good test - at least to make sure the pj can display 1080p properly at 48 or 24hz (and 72hz). Nvidia cards allow you to add custom resolutions and refresh rates from the control panel.

As someone else pointed out, additional software may be required to test judder-free playback at these resolutions, but just finding out if it can sync 1080p at 24 or 48hz would be interesting.

PJC must have the dimensions mixed up, it's 16" wide, but 12" deep.
I think you are right. Their dimensions (for the Epson Pro Cinema 810) are:

Size (inches) (HxWxD) : 11.6 x 20.0 x 16.5

11.6 inches high? Maybe they measured the box...

can't your BluRay and your HD-DVD output 24/48 fps?
None of the HD disc players can output these frame rates (yet). The Toshiba HD-XA2 and maybe one or more Blu-ray players are possibly going to get 24/48 Hz outputs via firmware upgrades, I have heard.

I think you are right. Their dimensions (for the Epson Pro Cinema 810) are:

Size (inches) (HxWxD) : 11.6 x 20.0 x 16.5

11.6 inches high? Maybe they measured the box...
They are way off. Use the dimensions from projectorpeople or Epson. The 700/810 and the 1000 are the exact same case.

I thought I'd decided on the TW1000, but then I decided to switch screens from the Vutec Matte White 133" 16:9 to the Da-Lite High Power 156" 2.35:1 (CH setup), and now I'm BACK TO SQUARE ONE! Now I have to decide if the TW1000 is still a better choice than the Panny PT-AE1000U. Here's my list of pros and cons:

Brightness: specs Panny 1100, Epson 1200; actual, ?!? Probably Epson, but by how much? 5%? 20%?
Contrast: specs Panny 11,000:1, epson 12,000:1; actual: ? probably a wash
Pixel structure: Panny has none at INCHES, Epson 2-3 feet; with a 156" screen, probably more of an issue than at, say, 80".

The Epson's edge in brightness is probably not nearly as important with the High Power screen, since I'll only need max brightness with lights on or with Xbox 360 games, and movies will be watched with lights off and in theater mode anyway (my BenQ PE8700 with 1000 lumens is already plenty bright for movies on my matte white screen). The contrast difference is unknown and probably insignificant. The Panny has the clear advantage in pixel structure.

So if the brightness difference is 20%, that would swing my vote to the Epson, but if it's only 5-10%, the Panny. Does ANYONE have any objective measures of brightness on these two PJs?!? I propose that I purchas a light meter, send it to Jacksonian, then he sends it to a Panny owner, and we have an answer in about 2 weeks. How does that sound, Brent?

David

David,
Don't make a decision yet. I have not seen the Panasonic yet, but I don't think pixel structure is going to factor into your decision with either pj.

I'm interested in the light meter idea. I did a quick search and see models from $30 to $900. Anyone have any leads on a good inexpensive model that will do what we need? Maybe someone from the calibration forum will know?

I guess we WOULD need to use the same light meter, so we'd need to ship it from one to the other. But I'm up for it. Maybe we'll just start our own website for projector reviews! :D

Doesn't the Spyder2 also measure light output?

Jacksonian,
Now that you are already enjoying TW1000 1080p projector, how about some screen shots taken from HD source? I understand pictures taken from digital camera will not do justice with TW1000, at least it will give some idea in comparison to panny and mit 1080p projectors.

I would imagine Epson TW1000 1.3 HDMI input and PS3 1.3 or new Tosh HD DVD player out put will certainly raise the bar by way movies are watched in a hometheater.
Thanks

Tiger.com sells the spyder2 for like $69 - can someone confirm it can measure lumens and/or foot lamberts? I'll buy one if it does.

I thought I'd decided on the TW1000, but then I decided to switch screens from the Vutec Matte White 133" 16:9 to the Da-Lite High Power 156" 2.35:1 (CH setup), and now I'm BACK TO SQUARE ONE! Now I have to decide if the TW1000 is still a better choice than the Panny PT-AE1000U.
...
David

David,
If I'm not mistaken, the Epson does not offer vertical scaling. I don't know about the Panasonic 1000U, since I haven't looked into it, but I think the 100 does.

If you are going the CIH route - this could be a deciding factor if you plan to add a prismatic lens one day.

Also, I wonder if you'd get enough brightness out of either projector to light a 156" screen. You'll definately want a black ceiling in that room...

But Ilya, the thing is, if you want to recreate the cinema-feel at your home with 2.35:1 movies (cinemascope), you will have to sit closer than 1.5X the screen width (you always sit closer than 1.5X at the cinema). To sit that close and still see a smooth image, you'll have to go to 1080 projectors.

I'm not overly concerned about the difference between 1.78, 1.85 and 2.35 (really 2.40) in my own home- although, I do agree with you.

Aspect Ratio is also why motion picture professionals use the vernacular of screen "heights" rather than screen "widths" as to be more precise about viewing distance. Recommended seating distance works out to be about the same, heights are more precise for describing visible phenomenon like artifacts and what not.

I.

Spyder2Pro has additional software for projectors whereas Spyder2 Express does not.

Somewhat informative review of Spyder2Pro at http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/spyder2pro_update.html

Nice review of product catagory at
http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/monitor_calibration_tools.htm

Does anyone have any real experience with using Spyder2 Express vs. Spyder2Pro on projectors?

Given that the free software HCFR from this forum is all you need (or so it seems), you can buy the Spyder2 Express as the hardware is the same.

The Spyder2 Express also has a projector option.

It will make a XP profile for the projector, but thats of use only with the desktop PC display.
Once you use DVD software player using overlay the profile is of little use, and you would need to calibrate to the DVD software player's overlay display.

You can use the Spyder2 express hardware with the free cal software on this forum to tune your colors within the projector, but its involved, maybe the pro software makes that easier?

Maybe I missed the post, but I am surprised not to see any posts about this new projector at CES. Anyone there see it? Thanks a million to Jacksonian for leading the way here, but we need more user/viewer reports!

PS: I (and no doubt others) am particularly interested in any comparisons to the new JVC projector, which I know is being displayed at CES (off-cite). If these two projectors were the same price or close, I have little doubt I would go for the JVC, but there is a big price gap here...So, the question is whether there is a really noticeable difference in picture quality. Also, the Epson, I believe, should be brighter than the JVC--indeed, may be the brightest of the new crop of 1080p digital projectors (non-DLP).

I've seen it asked several times, but didn't see a reply yet, so I'll ask it again: can anyone confirm/deny support for stretch mode appropriate for 2.35:1 CIH (and if so, does it work over HDMI or not)?

Spyder2Pro has additional software for projectors whereas Spyder2 Express does not.

Somewhat informative review of Spyder2Pro at http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/spyder2pro_update.html

Nice review of product catagory at
http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/monitor_calibration_tools.htm

Does anyone have any real experience with using Spyder2 Express vs. Spyder2Pro on projectors?

All the Colorvision Spyder packages come with the same Spyder2 sensor.

You need their SpyderTVPro software package for projectors, and at $600 it's quite pricey, considering you can get at least 2 ISF professional in home calibrations for that.

IMHO buy Spyder2Express at $65 for the sensor and start playing around with HCFR and Calman from the calibration forum. It's cheap and fun.

I've seen it asked several times, but didn't see a reply yet, so I'll ask it again: can anyone confirm/deny support for stretch mode appropriate for 2.35:1 CIH (and if so, does it work over HDMI or not)?

Doubt it, Epson's never been big on CH, neither is the JVC.
Can't remember if the Pearl does CH stretch ?

Doubt it, Epson's never been big on CH, neither is the JVC.
Can't remember if the Pearl does CH stretch ?

No, the Pearl I know for sure doesn't. Still hoping one of these new 1080p projectors will have the magic combination of CIH stretch and brightness - but none yet as far as I can tell.

No, the Pearl I know for sure doesn't. Still hoping one of these new 1080p projectors will have the magic combination of CIH stretch and brightness - but none yet as far as I can tell.

True, but considering in a short time we should be able to get a 1080p TW1000 for less than 28 benjamins with a 2yr wrty. That might save you enough to justify buying an external scaler to do CH and have the added benefit of being able to use it for cleaning up and upscaling SD sources as well.

Kind of like investing in a good screen, no matter how many times you change/upgrade your projector you tend to keep the same screen.

If you have an HTPC you can always use that to do your CH stretch for you also.

True, but considering in a short time we should be able to get a 1080p TW1000 for less than 28 benjamins with a 2yr wrty. That might save you enough to justify buying an external scaler to do CH and have the added benefit of being able to use it for cleaning up and upscaling SD sources as well.

Kind of like investing in a good screen, no matter how many times you change/upgrade your projector you tend to keep the same screen.

If you have an HTPC you can always use that to do your CH stretch for you also.

I was thinking of getting an Xbox HD-DVD addon drive for my HTPC and use YXY to scale it. Then a HDhomerun to do cable HDTV. I don't think VLC (which the HDhomerun uses) does the stretches though.

David,
If I'm not mistaken, the Epson does not offer vertical scaling. I don't know about the Panasonic 1000U, since I haven't looked into it, but I think the 100 does.

If you are going the CIH route - this could be a deciding factor if you plan to add a prismatic lens one day.

Also, I wonder if you'd get enough brightness out of either projector to light a 156" screen. You'll definately want a black ceiling in that room...

Basementjack2, I'm planning on doing CIH via the built-in zoom lens rather than an anamorphic stretch lens. Mainly because my budget is limited by the wife (I'm barely getting the PJ, dude!).

As for the brightness, I'm perfectly happy with the brightness of my current BenQ PE8700 (1000 lumens rated) on a 133" 16:9 1.1 gain Vutec Matte White screen on movie material. Which means that once I double the gain with the High Power screen, plus a 20% brighter PJ, should mean that 156" 2.35:1 should not be too much of a stretch. And for games, for which my current setup isn't bright enough, it will actually be smaller (16:9, 125" diag), since it's a CIH setup, and therefore brighter.

David

HDMI 1.3 is interesting.

Has anyone experienced it and how is the result compare to the old standard HDMI?
Does it make any difference at all?

I was thinking of getting an Xbox HD-DVD addon drive for my HTPC and use YXY to scale it. Then a HDhomerun to do cable HDTV. I don't think VLC (which the HDhomerun uses) does the stretches though.


I agree, I'm definitely going the HTPC route with Xbox HD-DVD in the theater for my projector. My Toshiba HD-A1 is in our family room connected to our plasma.

I'm hearing good things about the latest PowerDVD and YXY using the Xbox HD drive.
This way you can scale pretty much anything and pretty much get any projector you want.

HDMI 1.3 is interesting.

Has anyone experienced it and how is the result compare to the old standard HDMI?
Does it make any difference at all?

So far there isn't anything to really take advantage of it, but down the road that will likely change...

My guess is that there won't be any source material to take advantage of 1.3 until there's already a 1.4 or later. And I also bet that most people won't be able to tell a difference even when they do. I feel pretty comfortable that I've achieved about 98% of what I'm ever going to get from a home theater. Everything from here on out is tiny fractions of improvement IMHO. There's just not much more that my eyes/brain can perceive. My plasma and pj look so close to real I can't expect much more. I know others will disagree and that's there opinion/perspective.

All right, Brent, I'm just going to order the light meter. An inexpensive one, but it should do the trick. I'm still researching the testing methodology, projected image vs. direct lens output, how to standardize the measurements, how to convert to lumens, etc. Have you found anything yet? I'll do a little fiddling with testing on my PE8700, then when I have some sort of method worked out with you and whoever's going to help us with measuring the Panny, I'll post the PE8700 brightness/contrast measurements for comparison and I'll ship it off to you. How does that sound?

David

Basementjack2, I'm planning on doing CIH via the built-in zoom lens rather than an anamorphic stretch lens. Mainly because my budget is limited by the wife (I'm barely getting the PJ, dude!).

As for the brightness, I'm perfectly happy with the brightness of my current BenQ PE8700 (1000 lumens rated) on a 133" 16:9 1.1 gain Vutec Matte White screen on movie material. Which means that once I double the gain with the High Power screen, plus a 20% brighter PJ, should mean that 156" 2.35:1 should not be too much of a stretch. And for games, for which my current setup isn't bright enough, it will actually be smaller (16:9, 125" diag), since it's a CIH setup, and therefore brighter.

David

sounds great, I may do the exact same thing - not sure on dimensions yet.
I've got to clear the tops of my tower speakers so I might be limited to a 10 foot wide screen.

All right, Brent, I'm just going to order the light meter. An inexpensive one, but it should do the trick. I'm still researching the testing methodology, projected image vs. direct lens output, how to standardize the measurements, how to convert to lumens, etc. Have you found anything yet? I'll do a little fiddling with testing on my PE8700, then when I have some sort of method worked out with you and whoever's going to help us with measuring the Panny, I'll post the PE8700 brightness/contrast measurements for comparison and I'll ship it off to you. How does that sound?

David

What kind of lightmeter can we get and where do you buy one - I'd like one too - if for nothing else than to confirm when my bulb is getting dimmer towards its end of life.

All right, Brent, I'm just going to order the light meter. An inexpensive one, but it should do the trick. I'm still researching the testing methodology, projected image vs. direct lens output, how to standardize the measurements, how to convert to lumens, etc. Have you found anything yet? I'll do a little fiddling with testing on my PE8700, then when I have some sort of method worked out with you and whoever's going to help us with measuring the Panny, I'll post the PE8700 brightness/contrast measurements for comparison and I'll ship it off to you. How does that sound?

David
Sounds fine to me. It seems like a projected image reading would be problematic if we have different screen materials. I'll be glad to participate. I'm actually anxious to find out what the Epson is throwing.

All right, Brent, I'm just going to order the light meter. An inexpensive one, but it should do the trick. I'm still researching the testing methodology, projected image vs. direct lens output, how to standardize the measurements, how to convert to lumens, etc. Have you found anything yet? I'll do a little fiddling with testing on my PE8700, then when I have some sort of method worked out with you and whoever's going to help us with measuring the Panny, I'll post the PE8700 brightness/contrast measurements for comparison and I'll ship it off to you. How does that sound?

David

Guys just as a heads up, while I think the idea is interesting, you won't really be able to accurately compare your numbers if each projector is measured in a different environment(ambient conditions) and by a different person(user variables). You can often see this when one review site reports lumens on a certain projector and then another site reports a completely different number.

More accurately would be to get the projectors in the same place and measured by the same group.

Joe

Though it be of interest since they're closer to home and offer a 15 day trial, looks like eastporters just listed the TW1000 also.

Jacksonian,
Where did you buy this projector from? as of now, I am unable to find a dealer in USA who stock Epson TW1000. Can you mention dealer;s name in this forum with out going against the forums policy? I would like to order this projector even if it is from over seas, will appreciate your help.
If it's not much trouble, Please post some pictures.
Thanks

He priced it, I mean bought it from Japan....

Thanks Jagercola, I believe, there are thousands of AV dealers in Japan. So which one and where in Japan?

Does anyone know of any dealers on Okinawa in Japan?

I got a list of dealers off the epson.jp website, and I have some friends living there now, but they don't speak Japanese. If I can tell them which store to go to, I think I can get them to go pick one up and send it to me.

Thanks Jagercola, I believe, there are thousands of AV dealers in Japan. So which one and where in Japan?

Haha, read between the lines - he gave you the answer already - the web site's name starts with price, ends with japan, and has a .com at the end :rolleyes:

Hello,


You can now order this now from any Epson dealer here in the USA. Epson will be shipping to all its dealers at end of this month. The 1080 will have a 2 year warranty, extra bulb and ceiling mount included for 5k.

rmlowz

Anyone have a online manual link ?

Haven't found manual yet.

My Colorvision Spyder2 sensor just came in today, hope to have some time to play with it this week-end and run some calibration readings. I should be able to measure brightness ftL with it also.

The 1080 will have a 2 year warranty, extra bulb and ceiling mount included for 5k.
So for only $2200 more than they charge in Japan, we get a ceiling mount and a free bulb! That is a smoking deal! ;)

Some are being sold with the HQV TX3 video processor for an extra $3000. Anyone know if it's worth it?

My Colorvision Spyder2 sensor just came in today, hope to have some time to play with it this week-end and run some calibration readings. I should be able to measure brightness ftL with it also.
Definitely tell me what you think about the Spyder2, especially ease of use.

Some are being sold with the HQV TX3 video processor for an extra $3000. Anyone know if it's worth it?

No, for that kind of money I would purchase a superior standalone video processor.

Hello,


You can now order this now from any Epson dealer here in the USA. Epson will be shipping to all its dealers at end of this month. The 1080 will have a 2 year warranty, extra bulb and ceiling mount included for 5k.

rmlowz

EpsonUSA has a "history" of this type of pricing.

They have done it with the last two groups of projectors from Epson, which have all sold well overseas (where they were cheaper) and almost none in the USA.

Why thy continue with this strategy which obviously does not work (at least if selling product is your plan...) completely baffles me.

For some reason Epson thinks that they can rape/pillage the folks here in the USA while offering a good product at a reasonable price elsewhere. I say vote with your pocketbook...... if you want to buy the projector, buy it from someone offering it at a reasonable price..... who knows perhaps someday the person "in charge" at Epson USA will be replaced!!

Hello,

I agree, it really does not make any sense at all that the price is so much cheaper overseas. I wonder if Epson really cares about the US market. Just my two cents

rmlowz

Hello,

I agree, it really does not make any sense at all that the price is so much cheaper overseas. I wonder if Epson really cares about the US market. Just my two cents

rmlowz

Their "actions" would say NO! At least not for the last several years!

Okay, just ordered one. Now off to the video processors forum to see which ones are recommended.

If Epson is so determine to market this projector at an unfair price in USA then why not order from Japan? key is to find a trusted dealer in Japan who speak english thus, we can save more than $2000.00. for other use.

If Epson is so determine to market this projector at an unfair price in USA then why not order from Japan? key is to find a trusted dealer in Japan who speak english thus, we can save more than $2000.00. for other use.

Can anyone who ordered theirs from Japan speak about the experience please? I'm interested in knowing how long it took to arrive, how much hassle was involved, etc. Also, what's the warranty situation? If I buy Japanese can I still get service from Epson USA? Are the warranty terms the same?

Thanks!

Yeah if anyone who imported from japan chimes in, I'd be interested in finding out about import duties (to the US).

If you get it from that japanese pricing site they will handle the first warranty incident if you cover shipping charges both ways. Future warranty incidents would be ~$50 + shipping both ways. They've been around for along time (I got high end headphones from them years ago) so I'm not worried about them being a fly by night operation, but Im mildly worried about warranty and import duties.

If you read this topic from the beginning, you will see that the one owner of this projector posting here has both ordered from the "Japanese pricing site" and worked with them to have his projector replaced under warranty. Everything I read implied that he had a good experience with them overall, but you should just read it yourself to decide. I am very close to ordering a TW1000 myself.

I believe so far that I'm the only one that has one but I think someone else has ordered. It only took about 3 days to arrive. The Japanese units only have a 1 year Japanese warranty, that means you MUST ship them back to Japan via the Japanese dealer you bought from. Mine had a problem within about 2 hours of use. I had to pay $280 roundtrip shipping back to Japan to have it repaired. I received a brand new projector 11 days after shipping the defective one (and that was over the Christmas and New Year holidays).

There are no import duties to the US.

My advice would be this to all prospective buyers:

--If you want the rock bottom cheapest price, get the Japanese model and gamble on the warranty issue. I gambled, have paid $280 extra to get warranty service, but it was pretty painless. But if it breaks in 13 months, I guess I'm out of luck. For this option press P...J or E...P

--If you want a little more piece of mind, buy from a different distribution chain like Hong Kong so that you get the 2 year international warranty and can have it serviced here in the US instead of paying for shipping (plus the 2 year vs. 1 year). You won't get the rock bottom price, but it will be close (and for me, probably would have come out the same since I've already shelled out $280). For this option send a PM to Superfly. I can't speak about HiviZone because I have no experience shopping or researching them (read the 810/TW700 thread for details on them).

--If you want total piece of mind and no risk, then order from a US dealer and be $2k lighter in the wallet :D

And for those not following both Epson threads, I actually imported BOTH a TW700 and TW1000. The TW700 came from Superfly, flawless execution, would do it again in a second. The TW1000 came from P-J, they delivered, but you can only communicate via email and you have to do it their way (I tried to get out of paying shipping since it was defective from the start, but no dice), so a bit disconcerting initially, you're at the mercy of an email reply from someone with moderate English.

Dont forget the importer in Canada that sells Japan goods too, and he offers a 1 year swap option and a return option with a restocking fee. The AVS price on the Mits is not that much higher than the Japan price if you want a US warranty and the option to upgrade if the projector is not right for you.

But my question is... Why the Epson over the Mits ?

The Mits is reported to have a high quality lens and adds electronic focus and lens shift and is all but SILENT!

I have not seen either but would be interested in hearing if you have.

Jacksonian - could you post a close up shot of a 1080p PC projected screen showing the pixels. You mentioned SDE disappeared at 1.5x width, that is very far, with the Pearl I demoed it disappeared at about 2 feet away. Maybe a pic in the center and one in the corner, would help others decide if LCD is the right choice.

Also, how does convergence look with a test pattern on the Epson?

Dont forget the importer in Canada that sells Japan goods too, and he offers a 1 year swap option and a return option with a restocking fee.
I included them in option 1 above, E...P.

The AVS price on the Mits is not that much higher than the Japan price if you want a US warranty and the option to upgrade if the projector is not right for you.

But my question is... Why the Epson over the Mits ?

The Mits is reported to have a high quality lens and adds electronic focus and lens shift and is all but SILENT!

I have not seen either but would be interested in hearing if you have.
I strongly considered the Mits, but never got to see it, would be an interesting shootout. I went with the Epson based on
(1) the light output. They're not rated that much different, but Epson is generally very conservative with specs and I believe it is brighter than the Mits, but that is based on Epson history + the Mits review numbers and my extrapolation.
(2) Another factor for me was I put my pj in a box to hide it, so the intake/exhaust ports of the Epson fit my installation better than the Mits.
(3) Mits also gets a little nitpick on the iris functioning being visible and I knew that Epson did a great job with that on the 810. Note: I saw one instance of a barely perceptible iris opening while watching a movie this weekend.

Motorized zoom and focus is neat on the Mits, but I only zoom and focus ONCE. I don't hear the Epson in low lamp and it's not bothersome for sports/tv in high lamp. But yes, the Mits being dead silent IS very attractive if anyone has ANY noise issues.

Jacksonian - could you post a close up shot of a 1080p PC projected screen showing the pixels. You mentioned SDE disappeared at 1.5x width, that is very far, with the Pearl I demoed it disappeared at about 2 feet away.
Maybe one in the center and one in the corner
No, I said SDE disappeared at 1.5x on the TW700 (720p), NOT the TW1000. I can't see pixels past 2-3 feet on the TW1000. SDE is simply not going to be an issue with ANY of the 1080p machines at any sane viewing distance or size, period.

There are some really close up shots earlier in this thread. I specified that they were taken from 2-3 feet away.

jacksonian, thx for your input! I currently have the 700 but am sending it back because the iris seems to be overly loud. Have you had any issues with iris noise during normal operation with either the 700 or 1000? I put an order in for the 1000 and am hoping to upgrade to 1080p and solve my 700 iris problem.