Finally, Epson's own 1080p LCD:

http://www.epson.jp/products/dreamio/emptw1000/tw10003.htm

1200 lumens
12000:1 CR with auto-iris
2.1x zoom range
100" min at 3m max at 6.3m
Vshift 96%, Hshift 47%
26db

price "expected" 350,000 YEN.

"price "expected" 350,000 YEN."

Must be a mistake - that's only $2926. Less than the 810's IIRC.

Too bad about the low spec'd lumens. This would appear to be a less bright projector than Epson's cureent 720P offerings. I will never understand why manufacturers seem to believe that 1080P projectors only need wimpy light output when the high resolution would be most beneficial on really big screens.

True lumen and spec lumen are not the same.
Previous Epson projectors could be used with settings provided a little less than 1000 lumen. If the new prjector can be used with settings providing 1000+ lumen we have a brighter display.

Mattias, as a previous Epson owner I agree that Epson's specs are more conservative than most, however, as with most manufacturers once calibrated to D65, the lumens drop considerably. If the TW1000 is capable of 1000 lumens at D65 I would be very surprised and would definitely be putting this on my to consider list.

From engadget:

Epson just unleashed a new 3LCD projector in Japan under the EMP-TW1000 guise. Most notable is the ability to blast a Full HD (1080p) 1920x1080 resolution image across that 2.1x optical manual zoom lens and the inclusion of HDMI 1.3 to pump pixels at up to 340Mpixels/sec in support of 48-bit color depth and lossless audio streams. The TW1000 throws a maximum contrast ratio of 12,000:1 in a room of total darkness (read: not your home theater) off a 1200 lumen lamp while operating within 26dB worth of noise. The TW1000 should retail for around ¥350,000 or about $2,927 when these go on sale in Japan this December. No world on relese for the rest of world but they should ship closer to home under the same PowerLite branding we're already familiar with. A picture of the backside ports after the break.

I will never understand why manufacturers seem to believe that 1080P projectors only need wimpy light output when the high resolution would be most beneficial on really big screens.

I agree - larger screens are the ideal application for 1080P projectors. I can only imagine that having 1080P with high lumen output gets too close to the territory of commerical megabuck projectors - or at least encroach on much higher priced offerings coming down the pike.

That said, there's such a screaming need for it you know some maverick company will come out with an affordable 1080p higher lumen projector. But I guess for now we have the Optoma.

Crystal Clear Fine!!!

When I read this news release I was at first concerned that I had made a mistake buying the Panasonic AX100. After I saw the wimpy light output of this projector my decision to wait another year for 1080p is still justified.

I am actually quite excited about this projector, it is just that I was hoping that Epson would distinguish themselves from their competition but offering a bright projector. A spec of 1200 lumens suggests that they have taken a step backwards from their recent offerings. Perhaps the 1200 lumens will not be far off upon calibration at D65, however, I doubt it given the choice of lamp.

contrast and lumens is higher then competing 1080p lcd projectors. Looks to be more flexible (horizontal shift a lot larger), and people wanting to wait for hdmi 1.3 will be happy.

sounds good to me.

This is great news, not for me buying a 1080p projector right now, but for the drop in prices of 1080p projectors. This should help put pressure on prices, then in a year or so we may see some rather cheap 1080p projectors.

The quoted price sounds low to me but if it actually
does materialize at <$3k I would see this as a significant
development in the 1080p LCD wars. C2 Fine, 1080p
and the flexibility and traditional reliability of Epson
(let's hope) for under $3k would have been big news
two months ago. This just goes to show how the
AX100 and the other new high lumen pj's have
thrown a wrench into this forum.

I think that the price is misquoted as well. The EMP-TW1000 is the same as the Epson PowerLite Pro Cinema 1080 (http://www.aboutprojectors.com/Epson-PowerLite-Pro-Cinema-1080-projector.html), which is expected to come in at under $5k if the guys at CEDIA are to be believed. Of course, once it's on the streets, it should be a lot cheaper, but 1080p still shouldn't be under $3,000 until this time next year at the earliest.

Of course, I'd be excited if the quoted price was true.

Epsons generally don't street for much less than the
MSRP. However, the release of the last generation
had very different pricing in North America vs Europe
on release.

Epson just released the 810 with
panels that are said to be D5+. It has a MSRP
of $2999 (or $5999 with HQV). This is a 720p
projector with 1600 lumens and a 2.1x zoom lens.
This doesn't seem to leave much room for a $3k
1080p projector with C2Fine but I guess we will see.
On the positive side, the Epson 400 is much more aggressively
priced than other recent Epsons.

http://www.epson.jp/osirase/2006/061011.htm

EMP-TW1000 (1080p D6 panel) for 350,000 yen
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20061011/epson1.htm

EMP-TW700 (720p D5 panel) for 200,000 yen
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20061011/epson2.htm

IMHO 2,927 bucks street price would make perfect sense. Or it might be reasonable to "guess" that production costs of D5 / D6 panels could be somewhat close to each other. Also consider the average price tag of each certification-in-progress HDMI 1.3 receiver would not add a premium to churn out a new model for the holiday season.

Maybe simply multiply 200,000 yen by 1.75 and we get 350,000 yen. That essentially means 1080p model does not cost 2X as much as 720p little brother. So shell out the extra cash (plus sales tax) and here comes the 100" FULL HD glory, baby. Not a bad deal if you ask me.

It appears that Silicon Image has yet to start production of HDMI 1.3 receivers so how can the Epson have it? :confused:

It appears that Silicon Image has yet to start production of HDMI 1.3 receivers so how can the Epson have it? :confused:

well the Japanese site has a foot note saying "in the process obtaining certification"..

in any case this 1.3 thing is really more for marketing I think. No real benefit as far as a PJ is concerned.

As to the specs, 1 month ago this would have be breaking news :) First "affordable" 1080p FP, with a huge lens shift and zoom range.

As to the specs, 1 month ago this would have be breaking news :) First "affordable" 1080p FP, with a huge lens shift and zoom range.

It should still be breaking news given that after all the announcements we're still without any affordable 1080P projectors other than the Pearl.

Clearly, this Epson TW1000, the Panasonic AE1000 and the Mitsubishi HC5000 are all going to be fighting it out and will all likely be far more similar than different. All three are also going to be duking it out with the Sony Pearl. It seems like each of the three LCD offerings has given us one or two little things to make them different and stand out just a wee bit from the others:

The Mitsubishi has power zoom, focus and lens shift and is also the quietest at only 19 dB in low lamp mode. It also has the Reon-VX video processor.

The Panasonic has a new 1080p version of SmoothScreen and a larger zoom range than the Mitsu.

The Epson appears to have the largest lens shift range and is also spec'd to be the brightest of the three although it's just a spec and they go 1000 lumens, 1100 lumens and 1200 lumens for the Mitsu, Panny and Epson respectively - so in reality, they're likely all rather close in real light output. This Epson is clearly spec'd as being the loudest though, so that's a wee bit disappointing.

I find it interesting that the Epson may have the lowest MSRP of the three since this has traditionally not been the case. Then again, it appears that it has manual focus, zoom and lens shift (as does the Panny) and there's no word on what video processor is being used (the Panny's is an in house solution).

So out of the three, the Mitsubishi ends up looking like the slightly "higher end" version simply due to power controls and the higher quality video processor. Given that the Mitsu can be found in Japan for under $3000 US it makes sense that the Panny and Epson are going to have to be even less expensive!

Amazing times really for 1080p front projection. I never would have thought this would be where prices would be already! Clearly though, there's no low cost solution yet for a really bright 1080p projector. The Mitsu, Panny, Epson and Pearl are all in the 900-1200 spec lumen range. I'm also really eager to see what kind of on/off contrast and ANSI contrast these LCD projectors can produce. The Pearl has amazing on/off contrast, but its ANSI contrast seems a bit low when compared to the DLP competition. If LCD is the same way (and it likely will be) then DLP still has one clear advantage. Frankly though, DLP needs it! At the moment all 1080p DLP projectors are considerably more expensive and tend to be far less flexible in terms of placement options. No lens shift at all on the HD81 and for the rest, vertical lens shift seems common, but no horizontal lens shift and rather small 1.2 or 1.3:1 zoom ranges seem to be the norm.

So plenty of room for improvement all around in next year's models. But overall, I'm simply blown away by what we're seeing this year and especially the prices!

Jon

Now the questions are:

1. Which 1080p LCD will be the cheapest?

2. Which of these will work with a Panamorph U80 VC lens (v.stretch & 1.7+ throw ratio)?

I'd be very surprised if the price is any higher at all than the quoted number. The Pearl's features, the Mitsu's features, etc... If the Epson is above $3K, it's stillborn in the marketplace.

For that price, however, it seems to represent a good value. Bring it on.

This Epson is clearly spec'd as being the loudest though, so that's a wee bit disappointing.


Jon

26dbs is loud!

Looks like all the LCD 1080ps are <3k. ( There are already Japanese sites quoting the Mits and the Panny <3k. ) So again LCD is the undisbuted "budget" king. Nice to see the prices dropping that fast even before launch :)

With all of them <3k, the only advantage of Epson seems to be the greater placement flexbility.

Epsons generally don't street for much less than the
MSRP.

They do in Japan. So I'm wondering if the price quoted in the article is MSRP (if there is any) or the expected street pricing.

They do in Japan. So I'm wondering if the price quoted in the article is MSRP (if there is any) or the expected street pricing.
Interesting. This just shows how easy it is to be North American cerntric.
Over here, Epson has very tight distribution.

Looks like all the LCD 1080ps are <3k. ( There are already Japanese sites quoting the Mits and the Panny <3k. ) So again LCD is the undisbuted "budget" king. Nice to see the prices dropping that fast even before launch :).
Where did you find prices <3k for the Pana and Mitsubishi?

He says they are priced that low in japan. You can use some of the japanese price watch type engines to find street prices in Japan. Even the HC5000 is showing surprisingly low price quotes in Japan (although it is not available yet.)

In another thread a MSRP of $5999 was reported for the panny at a showing of the prototype. Given where the Pearl and Mitsubishi are, that seems unrealistically high.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=736222

This is especially interesting since in the past Epson has put some clear space between it and the other 3LCD makers by pricing itself in the premium segment. Even if the US MSRP is 1K higher, they're still the cheapest MSRP out of the 1st batch of 1080p 3LCDs. Maybe Epson decided not to sit this round out?
If by some miracle it really MSRP'd (or even hit street) for $2995 in the US (not holding my breath) it would clean up. Epson has made good projectors in the past they were just too expensive for what they offered. In the 1080p ballgame they would really shake things up with pricing this aggressive.

When I bougfht my Cinema 500 there was a pretty good
case for the price premium. Compared with the LCD competition
at the time it had better optics, better processing, power zoom
and power focus, a more robust lens shift and a much better
out of the box picture. If you look at all that the Mits 5000
has to offer the case for premium pricing does not seem to be
there for the Epson.

Hey any Epson corp. reps out there that can throw us a bone with a little information leak? Don't let Panasonic, Mitsubishi, and Sony steal all the limelight!

Seriously, I'm a few months away from buying a projector, but I'd love to have a little more information to froth over in the meantime.

right on brad... i check epson's web site everyday hoping to see something. maybe a news clip would be cool. come on epson....

Epson Tw1000 - Powerlite 1080 CEDIA video and interview with epson product manager.

http://www.cinenow.com/uk/play-video-448.html

Hoping (as everyone here) the tw1000 would arrive at the sub 3000$ price, but not holding my breath....

Here's some information from Epson's Japanese site (nothing on the U.S. site yet):

http://www.epson.jp/products/dreamio/emptw1000/

Up near the top, looks like Dec 2006 availability.

And an English translation (entertaining, if not accurate) via Google translation (click the nav items on the left side to get to other pages):

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.epson.jp%2Fproducts%2Fdreamio%2 Femptw1000%2F&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

I'm especially excited to hear that "minute image is pulled out entirely with Kousei detail", which is a key feature I'm targeting. :confused:

Any word on what this unit will be using as a processor/scaler?

Epson Tw1000 - Powerlite 1080 CEDIA video and interview with epson product manager.

http://www.cinenow.com/uk/play-video-448.html



That product manager needs to work on his sales skills. Spending the whole interview saying that the 1080P projector will be innovative because it uses 3 LCD chips. Uh, yeah, so does every other LCD projector - but Epson INVENTED it.

Wow. It's like saying that the newest Ferarri will employ 4 wheels each with its own rubber tire for maximum stability. Then he blathers about how really good for the money Epson projectors are known to be. Mmm, not necessarily. With the fate of the product in this guys hands, I'm worried.

What a maroon. Not only does he spend way too much time explaining 3lcd, but he then goes on to say it is unique to Epson! That's just after he explains how they provide the technology to other well known companies. And how about that unique feature called lens shift. Wow, I sure wish other manufacturers would use that. It sure sounds awesome.

I'm excited about the 1200 ANSI lumen spec. Epson has a reputation of more honest brightness ratings in the past. If so that would make this at least 2x as bright as the Mitsubishi which measured around 400 after calibration. I guess we'll see.

I saw somewhere also that it uses the same bulb as the 700, which is rated at 1600 lumens, so maybe there is some cause for optimism on the light.

Edit: Oh yeah, it was the last page on the Epson Japan site:

http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.epson.jp%2Fproducts%2Fdreamio%2 Femptw1000%2F&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools

EMP-TW700 spec'd at 1600 lumens here:

http://www.aboutprojectors.com/Epson-EMP-TW700-projector.html

If Epson delivers hdmi 1.3 at that resolution and brightness, I think they've really jumped ahead of the market. My application is a dedicated home theater and those are the specifics I was waiting to break $5,000 and thought I had at least 8 months to go. While I would prefer all of that in DLP, I'll quit waiting and buy the epson if everything that's being tossed around turns out to be accurate.

I don't get why some others think HDMI 1.3 isn't important in a projector? I can be severely confused yet again, but I thought as soon as one component in the path is HDMI 1.0, the entire path is HDMI 1.0. I'd sure appreciate the depth of color that 1.3 offers - is the point that an LCD projector isn't going to be able to take advantage of the extra information being carried to it?

And while it's impossible to stay in front of the technology, I try to shy away from buying behind the curve. My perspective is that with the industry commitment to HDMI 1.3, buying something w/o it is not a very long term strategy.

I'm eager to see some content coded to that color depth at 1080p soon.... Hopefully from a < $3k epson hanging from my ceiling.

HDMI 1.3 would be a nice bonus, but I certainly would not hold off buying a projector for this feature.

Do we know what Video Processing Chipset is being used?

I saw somewhere also that it uses the same bulb as the 700, which is rated at 1600 lumens, so maybe there is some cause for optimism on the light.


Yes, it's the same 170w E-Torl lamp. The earlier tw600 (also specced at 1600 lumen) used a 170w lamp, too.

The tw600 lamp is said to be a different model, on epson site (maybe they changed the lamp case only? ;) )

Hope it will have the same tw600 punch, can't wait to read some previews!!!

Do we know what Video Processing Chipset is being used?

imws

As you know when they marketed the Cinema 500 they made a big deal
about identifying the use of the faroudja FL2310 chipset but since then I have not
seen any specific reference to their chipsets even when the 800 was released
in North America at a rather premium price. Is there any reason to believe
that they have downplayed processing in an attemp to become more price
competitive? I hope not given what the Mits has to offer.

I just checked the specs by google-transalting the japanese page and the HDMI 1.3 is real. It supports 10 bit Deep Color all the way from input to projection - not bad at all.

I couldn't find any specs on the screendoor gap or the response time of the chips, tho.

Also, it implies that it will do 50/60 hertz display. I think for the price, 48/24 is too much to ask for :)

The 12000:1 CR is with Dynamic Iris enabled - no word on native CR.

Still - great price, I hope the give more details.

I think the epson will do correctly 1080p/24. That will be the standard output for HD player, so having a 1920x1080 vpr which can't accept the standard 1080p HD output signal doesn't make any sense, IMHO.

1080@48 is (99%) sure supported (almost the whole epson projector line support 48, why should they "downgrade" in their top-of-the-line projector?)


Can't wait for some in-depth preview!

I think the epson will do correctly 1080p/24. That will be the standard output for HD player, so having a 1920x1080 vpr which can't accept the standard 1080p HD output signal doesn't make any sense, IMHO.

1080@48 is (99%) sure supported (almost the whole epson projector line support 48, why should they "downgrade" in their top-of-the-line projector?)


Can't wait for some in-depth preview!
If that's the case, then I'm VERY impressed.

I may buy this (or two!) as an interim PJ until I choose my "big dawg".

Anyone know the response times? Do the Panny or Mitsu versions of this C2Fine chip quote anything on the response times?

I'm especially excited to hear that "minute image is pulled out entirely with Kousei detail", which is a key feature I'm targeting. :confused:

Kousei means corrected or calibrated. The phrase you're quoting there probably is trying to say something like "minute details in the calibrated image output can be clearly distinguished."

Anybody have any updates on the projector? This is probably the most exciting 1080p in the pipeline for a lot of us b/c of the lumen output.

If nobody has any new information, let's speculate for the fun of it!
-- jaydillyo

Out of curiousity, why are people excited about HDMI 1.3 as it applies to display device such as this generation of LCD / LCD / DLP projectors? What benefit do you forsee with the use of a HDMI 1.3 display device such as this Epson projector?

Right now it is selling for as low as 304,500 yen ~ $2,600.

edit:
350,000 yen does seems to be the retail with most stores taking orders at 330,000. I am beginning to distrust the 304,500 store and am not even going to attempt to read it.

Epson is pushing the color accuracy of this projector.

I don't have any info to back this up other than Epson's pricing history, but IMHO there's no way that this thing comes in at $3k. I think the CEDIA reports of $5k are much more accurate. They just released the 810 at $3k. Folks have said the 810 is available in Japan for about the street of the Panasonic AX100. So I don't think we can equate Japanese pricing to US pricing in this case. Apparently they sell them much lower in Japan. But I'd love to be wrong.

A little more research:
One of places selling it for 346,000 was selling the pearl for 567,000. In that Japanese store the epson is priced around 1,800 dollars less than the pearl. I'm optimistic.

From what I've read, I just think that Epson sells comparatively much cheaper in Japan. So all the yen conversions don't mean much. I really hope you're right, it would be awesome. But do you really think they'd price it the same as their 720p pj that just released?

The prices of their 720p are much cheaper in Japan, but not here. So it doesn't correlate. As Rogo said above, they'd be stillborn at a price of $5k, but that's never really mattered to Epson. They tend to sell more to the custom installer market than DIY AVS'rs like us.

But I'll hope with you :)

Epson Germany press release:
http://www.av-magazin.de/frontpage.447+M583662a57af.0.html
http://www.digitalkamerakreis.de/artikel2707.html

Specs as reported, 3 year warranty on projector and lamp, available in February, MSRP 4.000 Euro ("could change until release").

Other MSRPs in Germany: Pearl 5.000, Mits 4.500, Panasonic AE1000 not announced, probably 4.000, Epson TW700 (720p model, same as TW810 in US) 1.700.

So Epson seems to have the brightest, most flexible (lensshift-wise) and cheapest 1080p model, at least in Europe. Plus a good reputation for quality and customer service. Sounds like a winner! :)

How do current Epson auto-iris / DI implementations compare to the Pearl's auto iris (seems to be the DI benchmark for now)? Is it at least as seamless as it is on the Pearl?

How do current Epson auto-iris / DI implementations compare to the Pearl's auto iris (seems to be the DI benchmark for now)? Is it at least as seamless as it is on the Pearl?


Directly from Projector Reviews (http://www.projectorreviews.com/Manufacturers/epson/Cinema_400/index.asp) comes the following quote "The very good news is that the dynamic iris is subtle, in normal viewing I never noticed its affect, as I have on some projectors, where frame by frame, the addition of a bright object in the frame causes even the dark areas to brighten."

Granted this is on the "lesser 400" but if the DI is at least as good if not better on the 1000 it should be seamless.

Regards,

RTROSE

Out of curiousity, why are people excited about HDMI 1.3 as it applies to display device such as this generation of LCD / LCD / DLP projectors? What benefit do you forsee with the use of a HDMI 1.3 display device such as this Epson projector?
Sony will likely hit the market first with video games capable of utilizing "Deep Color." That is why the Sony PS3 has HDMI 1.3 and deep color support . HD-DVD and Blu-ray will be awhile but video gaming is going to be much sooner.

I read the UK press release, and the 3 year warranty on proj AND lamp is really attractive, but the proj is scheduled for a march release.
I'm wondering if tw1000 would be really available in japan in a few days, as epson said...any japan forumer?

mhhhh....great AVBuzz, we are in your hands!

MSRP in the US 4.999$: http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/11/27/epsons-1080p-powerlite-pro-cinema-projector-to-hit-us-for-4-99/

Boom. And there it is.

MSRP in the US 4.999$: http://www.engadgethd.com/2006/11/27/epsons-1080p-powerlite-pro-cinema-projector-to-hit-us-for-4-99/

The linked PR article it's based off of says the $4,999 is "estimated street price". Dunno if that is the same as MSRP??

Epson's sell at MSRP...sorry folks...unless something drastic happens this year in Epson's marketing approach at this price this unit is now the most expensive non-DLP 1080p solution. Are we really surprised though? Epson are perenially some of the most expensive options out there. Last year they set the market for LCD's with the 550 priced at $2500...the Epson 800 bundle last year was much more.

If after a few of them are out in the field, well received by reviewers, and relatively trouble free, I will be seriously considering the "import it from Japan" approach. Or maybe AVS could step up with a pre-order deal to make it worth our while, we'll see.

What a joke. More like a US con job.

Unfortunately even a power buy won't work the way that Epson set's up their distribution and sales agreements.

What a joke. More like a US con job.

What if it's the best of the crop in pic quality? It may be worth $500 more than the Mits.

Especially if it comes D65 calibrated.

I hope it has a good processing / scaling solution for that price...

Agreed Epson's always commanded a higher premium than some of the other players, but they do build a quality, reliable projector and back them with excellent customer service and warranties.

There's some extra value in what they offer in that premium as well.
I can't confirm this but I remember reading somewhere that the 1000 is expected to come with a 3 year overnight replacement warranty including the bulb. ISF'd out of the box as well.

In addition it may just be the brightest 1080p LCD out of the bunch this year. Epson's always understated their specs well below the actual numbers. In this case 1200 lumens on the 1000, which will probably fair somewhere closer to 1600 lumens. This is just a guess. The 810 was spec'd at 1600 lumens but tested out to close to 2400, fully blown out mind you. So it might be worth that extra to some here also.

After being thoroughly impressed with the new 810's performance this week-end I have to admit I'm biased towards Epson for now so take my comments from my enthusiastic point of view in mind.

So is it February for Japan release also, or will they get it sooner?

Just found the link where I had read about the 3yr warranty including bulb here.

Google translated...
Epson 1000 (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&u=http://www.cinenow.com/fr/news-3136.html&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=2&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dwww.cinenow.com/fr/news-3136.html%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG)

It doesn't bother anyone that Epson feels it needn't treat the US market as if it existed on the same planet as the Japanese market. Though if it truly doesn't bother anyone I can see why Epson would feel so free as to charge us considerably more, and comparatively more - this is the sting - for the same projector.

It is what it is, a form of tolerated corporate racism - a slap in the face. Some rationalize it with excuses as if Epson was their child, others, me, get pissed.

doesn't bother me at all, it just means I'll move along to the next CE provider's product.

It doesn't bother anyone that Epson feels it needn't treat the US market as if it existed on the same planet as the Japanese market. Though if it truly doesn't bother anyone I can see why Epson would feel so free as to charge us considerably more, and comparatively more - this is the sting - for the same projector.

It is what it is, a form of tolerated corporate racism - a slap in the face. Some rationalize it with excuses as if Epson was their child, others, me, get pissed.

Or maybe they have some kind of pricing agreement with the other manufacturers that use Epson's panels, so they don't undercut their customers.

Or maybe they have some kind of pricing agreement with the other manufacturers that use Epson's panels, so they don't undercut their customers.

Their customers also sell in Japan. To come in at $1000 more in the US is ridiculous!

Their customers also sell in Japan. To come in at $1000 more in the US is ridiculous!

Hehe I know, I didn't said it made sense, but then business decisions often don't.

Epson pricing strategy worldwide has always been "strange" (bound by strict commercial agreement, IMHO), but this time....wow!

In europe epson has always sold projector way lower than in us (yes I know the differences between the european and us model, but they have always been very minor, to my eyes), and in europe prices (and models) were always tied and follower of the japan pricing scheme.

It was true with the tw500, it was true with the last year tw600, and it's true this year......but ONLY with the tw700 :confused:

The Tw700 (Cinema 810) is already sold in europe LOWER than the japan advertised price, why the tw1000 should be sold for double the japan advertised price?

I still conserve some hope......but will take a serious look at japan REAL release date and pricing scheme; if anyone knows ....post it here please (respecting AVS rules, of course!)

I still conserve some hope......but will take a serious look at japan REAL release date and pricing scheme; if anyone knows ....post it here please (respecting AVS rules, of course!)

My anger :mad: subsided to disappointed :( . I double checked myself (can read some japanese).

It retails for $3,000; Amazon Japan will ship it on 2006/12/05; It can bought from a reliable store (one I have indirectly dealt with in the past) for about $2,600.

(I trust this is in keeping with the rules as none of above, unfortunalty, seems at all connected to American or European prices.)

26dbs is loud!
You don't need to defend Sony here please:)

Here is a word from a Japanese based retailer:
"It seems that Epson cannot provide enough D6 panel to makers, due to production problem. Its availability will be extremely limited unless D6-panel production problem is solved."

Either there is a production problem, or they are purposely limiting distribution.

The linked PR article it's based off of says the $4,999 is "estimated street price". Dunno if that is the same as MSRP??


I spoke with and/or emailed several EPSON dealers regarding my possible purchase of the Epson Pro Cinema 810.

They do NOT sell below MSRP. Their MSRP is the street. The dealers do not budge on the Epsons.

Moreover, there are very few places to buy Epson. I found ZERO places in the entire Philadelphia metro region (4th largest in the United States).

My options are dealers in other states (the few that I found), or a total of 2 Internet sites.

Epson has a tiny tiny distribution network in the U.S. Apparently in an effort to keep prices high.

Epson makes it really tempting to buy from a Japanese site (almost 50% less for the non-U.S. version). But othewise identical projector.

I would buy the TW700 from Japan. At their price, who cares if you don't have a warranty? You just buy a 2nd one and you're still about even :D And I think you can ship it back to them for the first year for the Japanese warranty anyway, just cost you a bit for shipping.

The "convenience" of an overnight replacement pj isn't worth double to me.

I would buy the TW700 from Japan. At their price, who cares if you don't have a warranty? You just buy a 2nd one and you're still about even :D And I think you can ship it back to them for the first year for the Japanese warranty anyway, just cost you a bit for shipping.

The "convenience" of an overnight replacement pj isn't worth double to me.


But I thought the epson 810 comes calibrated out of the box, but the tw700 does not??

I'm personally not an "ISF calibration" kind of guy. If you are, then maybe the 810 is the way to go. I don't actually know if the 700 is any different.

How come the Epson FullHD is getting so little attention here?

At a price in Asia of less than 2k Euros, its a real steal and costs less than half the price of a Mitsu or Pana.

How come nobody here careS?

Because there's not that many people that want to risk buying a grey-market projector w/out a good warranty.

Remember, the MSRP / street is much higher here in the U.S. ... so our only "reasonable" option is to get it overseas... strange !

What'S the street price in the us?

What'S the street price in the us?

$4,999

Epson doesn't allow prising below MSRP also, so you won't see lower street prices.

I know Epson does not permit advertising prices below MSRP, however, I do not see how they can keep a dealer from selling below MSRP.

I know Epson does not permit advertising prices below MSRP, however, I do not see how they can keep a dealer from selling below MSRP.
You're apparently not familiar with MAP. Many companies establish a minimum pricing. If you are an authorized dealer you have to agree not to sell below that price. If you do, they will revoke your authorized dealer status and in some cases take away your dealership for that product altogether.

That's why you've seen some people mention that their dealer sold them the projector at MAP/MSRP but then gave them a free bulb or a big discount on another product. That way they don't get in trouble for selling the pj below MAP and risking their status as authorized dealer.

Sure sounds like price fixing.

It is. But they're only fixing their product's price. You're welcome to sell your pj for less as Panasonic and Sanyo do and kill them in sales #'s. It's only illegal if more than one company gets together to fix the prices of the market.

If you don't want to pay that much, just buy the Panasonics or Sanyos, etc...they all come with Epson panels.

I'm seriously considering ordering the TW1000 from Japan. If they hadn't said it was delayed due to D6 panel production issues, I probably would have already done it.

You're apparently not familiar with MAP. Many companies establish a minimum pricing. If you are an authorized dealer you have to agree not to sell below that price. If you do, they will revoke your authorized dealer status and in some cases take away your dealership for that product altogether.

That's why you've seen some people mention that their dealer sold them the projector at MAP/MSRP but then gave them a free bulb or a big discount on another product. That way they don't get in trouble for selling the pj below MAP and risking their status as authorized dealer.

Interesting. I will now negotiate with the Epson dealers to throw in a free bulb replacement with my purchase at full MAP/msrp of the Epson 810 pj. I have not found any selling below msrp/map -- that's for sure.

I'm seriously considering ordering the TW1000 from Japan. If they hadn't said it was delayed due to D6 panel production issues, I probably would have already done it.

Me too....meanwhile I'm investigating in japan most reliable (and cheap!) AV shops ;)

For the lack of care....a pair of in-depth review would solve that, but noone has seen a working sample and reported some real data, or opinions, AFAIK......

.....Epson should really begin to ship some review samples to japan av sites soon (IF the december scheduled release is mantained, of course! ), asian forumers please report back!

Yeah, I've got the urge to just order it before anyone's even seen one. It's a strange urge to gamble. I might be the first one with the a great pj, or I might be the fool that bought a turkey from Japan :D

Yeah, I've got the urge to just order it before anyone's even seen one. It's a strange urge to gamble. I might be the first one with the a great pj, or I might be the fool that bought a turkey from Japan :D


I'd say the latter..

lol

Epson does make fine projectors, and I would not be the least bit surprised if the TW-1000 noticeably outperformed the Mitsubishi and Panasonic offerings as well as Sanyo's upcoming 1080P LCD projector. The Japanese pricing is tempting. I am on the JVC DLA-RS1 pre-order list, however, I am not sure that I will be happy with its light output. In all other respects the DLA-RS1 sure looks promising. The Epson TW-1000 is likely to be quite a bit brighter.

Honestly, I can't see Epson making a crappy FullHD pj. They can't afford selling crap in Japan because it will ruin sales worldwide.
So really the only risk you have is getting one with a fault or it dying on you and you not having any warranty.

But honestly, pj warranties are a joke anyway. So IMHO risk is small IF you get one that works out of the box. Plus you can buy two for the price of one anyway!!!!

"The Epson TW-1000 is likely to be quite a bit brighter."

Perhaps, depending on usage.

The 550 was brighter than the competition, but only in "living room" modes where co0lor accuracy was sacrificed for lumens.

IIRC it was on par with the others when adjusted for best quality video.

And the JVC may be able to exceed its spec's if it has the adjustment capability to increase green/blue gains.

What'S the street price in the us?

Well look here. (http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/EditorialAllAnnouncements.jsp?BV_UseBVCookie=yes)

Looks like here in the US it will be $4,999.00

Regards,

RTROSE

Noah,
I hope you are correct about the JVC. You have to love the contrast spec and the internal Gennum processing. I think a little too much emphasis is placed on light output. In my completely light controlled HT, switching a projector from low to high mode really only results in a barely visible increase in brightness even though the actual lumen output might be 30% higher. I guess what I am trying to say is that the difference between a 700 lumen and 900 lumen projector (assuming measured and not marketing lumens) is not very big. If we assume that the RS1 will put out 700 lumens, I would expect it to appear brighter in most scenes than other 700 lumen projectors given (1) its very high native contrast, and (2) the absence of a dynamic iris which eliminates any chance of brightness compression.

You're apparently not familiar with MAP. Many companies establish a minimum pricing.



I am familiar enough to know the A in map stands for advertised :)

Before everyone gets too excited about the price.... remember the Pro Cinema 800 vs. the TW600 sold everywhere except North America... it was exactly the same projector the only difference was the color of the case and the optional items inside the box (ceiling mount, cable), but Epson was trying to sell the CP800 in the USA for about Double or more what the TW600 was selling for in the rest of the world...........

So it would not surprise me at all to see Epson selling this projector for $2,500 in Japan, but trying to sell it for $6k in the USA.

Epson Street prices are typically the same as MSRP. Doesn't look like they want to sell this projector in the states....

Doesn't look like they want to sell it anywhere outside Japan.

I really do not understand how a company can seriously alienate their buyers like that.

Why on earth would they be giving them away in JApan like that and then charge DOUBLE the price in Europe and America?
Surely Europe and the US are the bigger markets than the japanese market on its own.

It's interesting that that same well known Japanese vendor is stating that there's a severe shortage of D6 panels that's limiting the production of the TW1000. If that's true, it could be that 1080 LCD PJ's will come way down in price once the panels are plentiful.

It's also interesting that despite the shortage, the (well known that must not be named) vendor has the 1000 listed for right aroud $3K - which is several hundred less than the Mits HC5000. When those panels are in abundant supply, could these PJ's be streeting in the low $2000s? Me thinks SO.

AFAIK the panels are prioritized. Mitsu has highest priority. Then probably Panasonic will be supplied and then Epsons own pjs.
Of course all will receive batches but Mitsu will be getting the most panels.

But whatever they do the price policy of Epson remains a mystery to me. How on earth can they dump the price on the japanese market compared to the rest of the world and then top the prices in Europe compared to the Mitsu and Pana?

I am familiar enough to know the A in map stands for advertised :)
You're correct. And that still doesn't change how it works. Call a few Epson dealers or high end watch dealers or high end furniture dealers if you don't believe me. :)

Epson does make fine projectors, and I would not be the least bit surprised if the TW-1000 noticeably outperformed the Mitsubishi and Panasonic offerings as well as Sanyo's upcoming 1080P LCD projector. The Japanese pricing is tempting. I am on the JVC DLA-RS1 pre-order list, however, I am not sure that I will be happy with its light output. In all other respects the DLA-RS1 sure looks promising. The Epson TW-1000 is likely to be quite a bit brighter.
I feel fairly confident that the Epson will outperform the Panasonic, should be interesting to see how it holds up against the Mits. Epson should certainly have an edge in brightness and likely one in contrast/blacks as well. But I think the Mits is as razor sharp as it gets.

The brightness issue is an interesting one. When all of these pjs are calibrated, we end up with about the same lumen output. But some folks with the Panasonic AX100 have been using Normal mode which calibrated yielded over 1100 lumens I think. And they found this pq just as pleasing as the darker cinema modes.

I think if you're after the blackest blacks, you're going to be down there in the low lumen range. But I'd sacrifice a little bit of black floor for a punchier image. That's what I was hoping I could do with a higher lumen pj like the Epson.

I am currently using the AX100 in Normal mode which is definitely brighter than the Cinema1 mode post-calibration. The nice thing about the AX100 is that it is very easy to calibrate. It has very good grey-scale tracking in both the Cinema1 and Normal modes (I did not calibrated the other modes). If the TW-1000 can put out 1000 lumens in its high lamp mode post-calibration, then this may be a more satisfying projector for my needs than the JVC DLA-RS1. I sure hope that there are some professional reviews of the TW-1000 available on-line in the next month or so.

You're correct. And that still doesn't change how it works. Call a few Epson dealers or high end watch dealers or high end furniture dealers if you don't believe me.

I know you are right. I have dealt with Epson projectors in the past. I used to recommend them for our conference rooms at work because they had good product. You won't get as big a discount as some others. I just thought it was funny that Scott said

I know Epson does not permit advertising prices below MSRP,

and your answer was

You're apparently not familiar with MAP

when that was exactly what he discribed.

The issue is that MAPs exist to help keep prices stable.
to stop
"I can go to YYY and get it for $$$, beat that if you want my buisness."

if anyone can go in and get a quote for much less then go somewhere else to compare it defeats the purpose of a MAP

It's only funny because you snipped off the end of his quote however, I do not see how they can keep a dealer from selling below MSRP

But, how is Epson to find out if the dealer and buyer keep it private? I doubt that Epson is going to go and audit their dealers.

But, how is Epson to find out if the dealer and buyer keep it private? I doubt that Epson is going to go and audit their dealers.
exactly

I don't think they do any routine auditing. But if you had to show your receipt for any warranty work, they could certainly flag your dealer that way. And they might even dispute that you made an authorized purchase. That's why they do stuff like charging you full price for the pj but discounting other stuff. I had a watch dealer in the Caribbean "adjust" the receipt that he gave me to make sure he didn't violate the MAP.

And regardless of your theories as to whether Epson *could* catch them, the bottom line is that the dealers aren't budging.

I don't think they do any routine auditing. But if you had to show your receipt for any warranty work, they could certainly flag your dealer that way. And they might even dispute that you made an authorized purchase. That's why they do stuff like charging you full price for the pj but discounting other stuff. I had a watch dealer in the Caribbean "adjust" the receipt that he gave me to make sure he didn't violate the MAP.

And regardless of your theories as to whether Epson *could* catch them, the bottom line is that the dealers aren't budging.

Perhaps that is why Epson has so few dealers in the U.S, you can practically count them on one hand.

I recently emailed Epson corporate about providing me with a list of retail dealers in my area (the Philadelphia area) for the 810. I received a response that they contacted an Epson sales person with my request, and that I would hear from that person soon. It has been about a week since that email -- I have heard zippo.

The one Philadelphia area dealer I originally was referred to via the Epson website told me that they no longer carry Epson. When I asked why, I was told that I was the first person to ask for an Epson projector in their memory.

Keep in mind that this means that Epson has ZERO presence for its home cinema projectors in the 4th largest market in the United States. That speaks volumes.

I get the feeling that Epson does not really want much of a U.S. presence for its home cinema projector market. Having worked in large corporations, its probably a function of the U.S. division managers focusing on other products (like printers).

Why that is, is probably due to corporate inertia, or lack of imagination. Someone probably sold some Epson managers on the fact that Americans like plasmas and LCD TVs, so don't focus on that market for projectors.

So they keep prices high and dealers low. Then when sales, of course, are low, and profits for the miniscule U.S. projector market create a big yawn at the quarterly meetings, they continue to do little about the market.

Just my hunch.

I remember last year I spoke with a few people higher up at Epson regarding the launch of the 550 and 800. It was Epson's intent to make these two projectors their large inroads into home theater in the US. There was a large marketing push to get information on the product in the market place and an attempt to reach a new segment of users than had been tapped before.
Obviously I'm not sure what happened with that initiative - but I think it's clear that the typical AVS Forum member was not their target audience. I kept a very close watch on the 550 last year and kept coming back to the same question - was the Cinema 550 work in the neighborhood of $700 more (~%30) than the street price for the Panasonic 900. No matter what the argument the answer was always no. So, I saved that $700 and put it somewhere else.
I believe that Epson looks at the home theater market much the same way that Runco does - they want to, and do, deal with local installers and are the first company to provide moderatly priced projector options for people looking to install theaters through CEDIA type outfits. Is that a bad thing? No. They provide a top notch product and sell it through a channel that allows both the dealers and themselves to maintain margins on their products. Epson is most certainly not the only company to keep a tight leash on the product prices - it just allows them to dictate who's selling them. While it might not be idea for all of us AVS Forum members - we must understand that they simply - in the US anyway - aren't interested in selling anything to us. There are plenty of other projector companies making kick-ass products. As for the whole HDMI 1.3 thing - there are several other threads debating the merrits of having this on a display given the current (and forseable futue) state of content.
Time will tell.

Epson makes good but cheep projectors and plays in the same league as Sanyo, Hitachi and Panasonic. They are not Runco and they are no other high-end company.
I wouldn't even say they are Mitsubishi, which have made great products so far.

Epson looked like the big star when the price in Japan was announced and everybody had high hopes of the new FullHD from Epson actually being the cheapest on the market, and that by quite a margin.
Why on earth they left that path and decided to directly compete with the others instead of swooping the market with a cheap FullHD, I do not know.

However, I would call it a HUGE mistake to make the new Epson available at such a low price in Japan and then not passing on this price (or at least a comparable price) to the rest of the world.

Either Japan is the biggest market for them or someone in marketing had a really bad day.

I remember last year I spoke with a few people higher up at Epson regarding the launch of the 550 and 800. It was Epson's intent to make these two projectors their large inroads into home theater in the US. There was a large marketing push to get information on the product in the market place and an attempt to reach a new segment of users than had been tapped before.
Obviously I'm not sure what happened with that initiative - but I think it's clear that the typical AVS Forum member was not their target audience. I kept a very close watch on the 550 last year and kept coming back to the same question - was the Cinema 550 work in the neighborhood of $700 more (~%30) than the street price for the Panasonic 900. No matter what the argument the answer was always no. So, I saved that $700 and put it somewhere else.
I believe that Epson looks at the home theater market much the same way that Runco does - they want to, and do, deal with local installers and are the first company to provide moderatly priced projector options for people looking to install theaters through CEDIA type outfits. Is that a bad thing? No. They provide a top notch product and sell it through a channel that allows both the dealers and themselves to maintain margins on their products. Epson is most certainly not the only company to keep a tight leash on the product prices - it just allows them to dictate who's selling them. While it might not be idea for all of us AVS Forum members - we must understand that they simply - in the US anyway - aren't interested in selling anything to us. There are plenty of other projector companies making kick-ass products. As for the whole HDMI 1.3 thing - there are several other threads debating the merrits of having this on a display given the current (and forseable futue) state of content.
Time will tell.

Its not the pricing -- its the number of dealers. How many are they, where are they? Very few.

If you want to see this projector in action at a dealer, where? 5 places in the entire U.S.?

Any word or timeframe when a review on this projector might be available? I've been putting off getting a projector for a few years now, and this one looks very promising. Hopefully this unit follows Epson's trend of not exagerating specs too much and is a bit brighter that the currently available 1080p projectors.

I notice the U.S. version of this projector, caled the Pro Cinema 1080 apparently, will be available from "CEDIA dealers" and is "ISF-certified". Perhaps the USA version will be a "tweaked" or otherwise souped-up version of a "plain vanilla" Japanese TW1000? Maybe roughly the way InFocus had their US$1000 X1 projector the same time they had the US$1600 ScreenPlay 4800 about three years ago.

If this machine is short-throw enough, I would consider flying to Japan to buy (and test in-person locally) one, since I would still be ahead after buying a US$750 plane ticket...

I doubt there will be two versions.

I notice the U.S. version of this projector, caled the Pro Cinema 1080 apparently, will be available from "CEDIA dealers" and is "ISF-certified". Perhaps the USA version will be a "tweaked" or otherwise souped-up version of a "plain vanilla" Japanese TW1000? Maybe roughly the way InFocus had their US$1000 X1 projector the same time they had the US$1600 ScreenPlay 4800 about three years ago.

If this machine is short-throw enough, I would consider flying to Japan to buy (and test in-person locally) one, since I would still be ahead after buying a US$750 plane ticket...

Unfortunately this is more "marketing speak" from Epson...... they played this same game with the 800 last year....... Epson's definition of "ISF Certified" (notice they did NOT say calibrated) means that the projector is "Capable" of being calibrated by an ISF technician............ it does not come calibrated.

I have not seen this mentioned to the best ok my knowledge but perhaps someone here knows...

1. Absolute Black Technology - what the heck is this? Is it marketing speak for Epson's version of "Dynamic Iris"?

2. What chipset is employed to do the deinterlacing and scaling?

Any idea if this thing has actually hit the streets in Japan yet? All I'm finding is press releases.

Unfortunately this is more "marketing speak" from Epson...... they played this same game with the 800 last year....... Epson's definition of "ISF Certified" (notice they did NOT say calibrated) means that the projector is "Capable" of being calibrated by an ISF technician............ it does not come calibrated.
You know, that's pretty obvious when you think about it, isn't it? It can't be ISF calibrated because that would take into account the screen/room/etc... It would be irrelevant even if it was calibrated unless you used the same screen, same size, same distance, etc...Duh.

Unfortunately this is more "marketing speak" from Epson...... they played this same game with the 800 last year....... Epson's definition of "ISF Certified" (notice they did NOT say calibrated) means that the projector is "Capable" of being calibrated by an ISF technician............ it does not come calibrated.


Art from projectorreviews.com seems to disagree with you in his review (http://www.projectorreviews.com/Manufacturers/epson/procinema800/imagequality.asp) of the 800.

"What really sets this Epson home theater projector apart from the competition, is color accuracy. This should not be a surprise, since Epson labels the Pro Cinema 800 as being ISF Calibrated, that is, the color saturation, contrast, brightness, and accuracy have been set following the formal ISF standards. Now, normally when we talk about calibrating a projector, we refer to calibrating a specific projector, not thousands of identical projectors. There will be slight differences from one projector to the next, and this is normally the result of variance from lamp to lamp. But wait, even calibrating your own projector, the lamp's output will dim, and there are likely to be minor color shifts to the lamps output as it ages.

Considering all of that, the bottom line is how good is this Epson's color. The most striking thing I can say, is that when I first hooked it up, and viewed some Hi-Def football, and a couple of movies (The Fifth Element, Lord of the Rings), I was immediately impressed in that I found the color to be "right on", or at least, as close as I could expect. There is more variation in color from DVD to DVD, and channel to channel than any error I experienced with the Epson projector."

I'm going to have to agree with Joe Black - last year there was a lot of arm waving about how the TW600 I believe was equivalent to the Pro-Cinema 800 despite the large price difference. If you look closely at the user manuals for each you saw that the Pro-Cinema 800 came with distincly different modes in the menu's - very similar to what we are seeing with the new models this year.
While the guts of the two might be equivalent there might likely be significant differences in the menu's between the two in terms of what modes the projectors ship with.

Joe,
I'm not arguing that the pj doesn't look fabulous out of the box, so I'm not disagreeing with Art's findings. But here's what Epson's own site says:

With the Epson PowerLite Pro Cinema 810, Epson has blended engineering ingenuity seamlessly with the world of theater and art. Top-of-the-line technologies are hard at work in this projector, giving you the ultimate movie experience. With ISF calibration, you get the purest image possible. And, installers have complete control to custom fit the picture quality to the surrounding environment utilizing 8 ISF programmable modes with individual memory. In addition, the Epson PowerLite Pro Cinema 810 offers seven specialized pre-set color modes for optimum performance, whatever the setting or situation.

So it implies that it is indeed ISF certified, meaning ready to be calibrated. It can't possibly be calibrated to produce correct gray scale and colors on your high power screen, my HCCV screen, someone else's Firehawk, someone else's bright white screen, etc....

I'm going to have to agree with Joe Black - last year there was a lot of arm waving about how the TW600 I believe was equivalent to the Pro-Cinema 800 despite the large price difference. If you look closely at the user manuals for each you saw that the Pro-Cinema 800 came with distincly different modes in the menu's - very similar to what we are seeing with the new models this year.
While the guts of the two might be equivalent there might likely be significant differences in the menu's between the two in terms of what modes the projectors ship with.
You can agree with Joe that there are different picture modes that lend themselves to a calibration, but that doesn't equal being calibrated.

This is much the same as the Pioneer Elite plasmas vs. the regular models. The Elites have special modes that allow them to be fully calibrated that the regular models don't.

So unless you're actually going to pay for the calibration after you get the pj, they don't help that much. Let's not mislead people to think that buying the 810 equals having a pj calibrated for their screen/room/etc...because it doesn't.

I was responding to Steve's comment saying that the 800 was just marketing speak and doesn't come ISF calibrated. It in fact does and ART confirms this. No one implied that Art or Epson said that it comes calibrated precisely for YOUR room. This is obvious, no projector can do this with all the variables involved in each person's viewing environment.

The key point is that it comes calibrated for color accuracy at each color temp including D65 presets and a range of preset gamma modes that are all set to ISF standards. For example you can select gamma 2.1, 2.2, 2.3 and so on directly thru the menu and try them in your room to see what yields the best picture, colors and shadow detail. It doesn't require an ISF calibrator to select the menu presets. You can do this yourself.

Most other projectors in this range don't have these presets at all, you have to manualy ADJUST the gamma high, medium and lows individually to try and come close to 2.2 instead. For this you need calibration equipment.

Not sure but this might help explain what I mean about the advantages of the ISF presets. For example the optimal goal for gamma is 2.2 for the best contrast, shadow detail and overall pq.

The Epson has the gamma presets on their menu;
http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-06/EpsonCinema400_menu_gamma.jpg


For example, the AX100 you have this menu for gamma;
http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-06/Panasonic_AX100U_menu_PictureAdvanced.jpg


With the Epson you can try 2.1, 2.2 or 2.3 to see which yields the best details and pq for your room with relative ease by selecting each in the menu. Or a pro can adjust each in detail great detail with calibration equipment. Your choice

With the AX100 there's gamma high, medium and low, but what combination represents 2.1, 2.2 or 2.3 ? You need either a calibrator or equipement.

OK perhaps my post got lost/ignored in the chatter about ISF calibrated vs ISF certified, :rolleyes: again does this projector use a Dynamic Iris to provide such a high contrast and also what chipset is employed to handle deinterlacing and scaling?

Not sure but this might help explain what I mean about the advantages of the ISF presets. For example the optimal goal for gamma is 2.2 for the best contrast, shadow detail and overall pq.

The Epson has the gamma presets on their menu;
http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-06/EpsonCinema400_menu_gamma.jpg


For example, the AX100 you have this menu for gamma;
http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-06/Panasonic_AX100U_menu_PictureAdvanced.jpg


With the Epson you can try 2.1, 2.2 or 2.3 to see which yields the best details and pq for your room with relative ease by selecting each in the menu. Or a pro can adjust each in detail great detail with calibration equipment. Your choice

With the AX100 there's gamma high, medium and low, but what combination represents 2.1, 2.2 or 2.3 ? You need either a calibrator or equipement.

Its only a matter of time before manufacturers include a camera/sensor and there is an auto-calibration mode (with options).

OK perhaps my post got lost/ignored in the chatter about ISF calibrated vs ISF certified, :rolleyes: again does this projector use a Dynamic Iris to provide such a high contrast and also what chipset is employed to handle deinterlacing and scaling?

By what I can see the TW1000 uses the same DUAL iris setup as the latest ProCinema 810. One iris in front of the lamp and one in the lens.

Here's some info on the 1000 from the Epson's japanese site translated thru google.
Epson 1000 japan (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.epson.jp%2Fproducts%2Fdreamio%2 F&langpair=ja%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools)
Scroll down that page to see the illustration of the dual iris used.
You can also click on the left side toolbar of the same page where at C2Fine, OptiFocus and some other japanese labels to get more specs and details.
Google should translate them also into something at least legible.

Joe

Anyone know if this Epson does vertical stretch? I'm tempted to import this one if it does as it's not that much more than the Mitsu 3100.

You think the US MSRPs on projectors are crazy? Try Canada! :D Screw it! When I'm visiting Japan in a month I'm picking up a TW1000. I don't care about the waranty when I can basically buy 2 @ the (guesstimate) US/Canada MSRP. It will come w/ ISF calibrated? Who care? The difference in prices will get me a couple of ISF house visits and more.

Good luck getting one imported though. I was told the shortage is going to go on through this month at least.

I live in Los Angeles but visiting Tokyo this week. This afternoon, I was at Akihabara in Tokyo. I was browsing for the Epson TW1000 unit, given that I've been following the forums & having read the thing is cheaper in Japan. Well, I saw a couple of stores carry them, but I saw asking prices of 460,000 YEN or so (more than $4,000). I didn't even bother asking, because it was know where near the $2,500 I was expecting (besides, I am waiting to see how the new JVC turns out). Just thought I'd share that with you all.

I live in Los Angeles but visiting Tokyo this week. This afternoon, I was at Akihabara in Tokyo. I was browsing for the Epson TW1000 unit, given that I've been following the forums & having read the thing is cheaper in Japan. Well, I saw a couple of stores carry them, but I saw asking prices of 460,000 YEN or so (more than $4,000). I didn't even bother asking, because it was know where near the $2,500 I was expecting (besides, I am waiting to see how the new JVC turns out). Just thought I'd share that with you all.


It sounds like you may have just visited the big chain stores on the main street like Yodobashi Camera, Sato Musen and Yamagiwa. These stores rarely have the lowest prices since they target the "tourist" crowd. You need to check the smaller shops in the sidestreets like PC Success. Also, did you have a chance to go to AVAC? They have perhaps the best showroom set-up of any HT dealer in Akihabara. They recently moved to a bigger new location one block over from the main "Electric Street." Using the price quote that AVAC gave me for the Mitsubishi HC-5000 as a yardstick, I seriously doubt that they're selling it for more than $3,000 U.S. I'd check it out for you, but my access to their website is blocked on my work computer.

In regards to Epson's US pricing, here are some facts

*Epson produce all LCD panels used in HT projectors today (except Sony HS60)
*The US is the largest market in the world for HT projectors

Epson would most certainly be able to produce a comparable projector for less money than Panny/Sanyo/Mits, simply because they don't have the additional overhead involved in sourcing the panels from a third party. It is reasonable to assume that there is an agreement in place between Epson and the companies it supplies not to undercut them in what is the most lucrative market in the world. This is actually a preferable situation for Epson, because they don't have to do the heavy lifting involved in designing, manufacturing, advertising and supporting a product. Also, the profit margin on a per unit basis would be much higher than their competitor's.

It sounds like you may have just visited the big chain stores on the main street like Yodobashi Camera, Sato Musen and Yamagiwa. These stores rarely have the lowest prices since they target the "tourist" crowd. You need to check the smaller shops in the sidestreets like PC Success. Also, did you have a chance to go to AVAC? They have perhaps the best showroom set-up of any HT dealer in Akihabara. They recently moved to a bigger new location one block over from the main "Electric Street." Using the price quote that AVAC gave me for the Mitsubishi HC-5000 as a yardstick, I seriously doubt that they're selling it for more than $3,000 U.S. I'd check it out for you, but my access to their website is blocked on my work computer.

Awe man!! I should've written at least a few days earlier. Great shopping advice you gave, & I would've written down your direction word for word & go browse again. I think I was on that tourist street you mentioned, lined with "duty free" shops & "Softmap" stores. I just could not navigate, given all these nooks & crannies. Talk about sensory overload. ... And no, I didn't see a shop called AVAC, let alone see any place with a decent HT set-up. Damn it! May be next time, & thank you for the clarification.

Awe man!! I should've written at least a few days earlier. Great shopping advice you gave, & I would've written down your direction word for word & go browse again. I think I was on that tourist street you mentioned, lined with "duty free" shops & "Softmap" stores. I just could not navigate, given all these nooks & crannies. Talk about sensory overload. ... And no, I didn't see a shop called AVAC, let alone see any place with a decent HT set-up. Damn it! May be next time, & thank you for the clarification.

No problem. I'm sorry you weren't able to find what you were looking for this trip. If you ever plan a return trip, PM me and I'd be happy to send you the names and locations of some good shops to check out.

I visited Akihabara in 2000 and 2003 and I enjoyed both visits. I just wish my company would have some more work in Narita so I could go back again.

I just could not navigate, given all these nooks & crannies.
The strategy I used was to allow enough time to go down every street until I ran out of stores, then go to the next block and do the same, going the other way. There is one building, right near the JR station, that has three or four floors full of tiny independent dealers of every category of electronic components and equipment you could imagine. Yes, I was very tired at the end of that day.

Talk about sensory overload. ...
But, that is a good thing. :)

Ktak, if I am able to visit again, I may want to ask you for good dealers also.

IKtak, if I am able to visit again, I may want to ask you for good dealers also.

No problem. Just give me a week or two advance notice if possible so I can check things out. Things change so quickly in Akihabara that even I can't keep up sometimes.

In regards to Epson's US pricing, here are some facts

*Epson produce all LCD panels used in HT projectors today (except Sony HS60)
*The US is the largest market in the world for HT projectors

Epson would most certainly be able to produce a comparable projector for less money than Panny/Sanyo/Mits, simply because they don't have the additional overhead involved in sourcing the panels from a third party. It is reasonable to assume that there is an agreement in place between Epson and the companies it supplies not to undercut them in what is the most lucrative market in the world. This is actually a preferable situation for Epson, because they don't have to do the heavy lifting involved in designing, manufacturing, advertising and supporting a product. Also, the profit margin on a per unit basis would be much higher than their competitor's.

Correct on all counts... those wondering "why" should take note.

Also- because Epson makes the D6, they also have the "secret recipe" to make them work flawlessly. This info is not shared with competitors.

I've owned 3x panasonic and 1x epson- I much prefer my Cinema 400 to the AE900 I spent some time with.

I.

Also- because Epson makes the D6, they also have the "secret recipe" to make them work flawlessly. This info is not shared with competitors.
So now you gotta go and say that. :) Just when I was ready to pull the trigger on the TW700.

I think I may just have to buy both a TW700 and TW1000 and put them side by side to see if I like the lumens or the resolution better. My guess is that my eyes may not be able to resolve much of the extra resolution, but I will notice the lumens.

Also- because Epson makes the D6, they also have the "secret recipe" to make them work flawlessly. This info is not shared with competitors.
Do you know that for a fact and have a source for this? Maybe they have a deeper knowledge of the matter, but I doubt if they have information they intentionally do not share which is vital to quality.

So - you're telling me that I can, at this moment, purchase a TW1000 for $2950, give or take a few dollars, in Japan; English menus, US voltages, no fiddling required, and Epson honestly expects us to pay $2,000 more for the privilege of buying one from a US dealer? I have purchased electronics from asia from time to time for many years. I've never seen this degree of price difference on a identical product available in both places. It's not so much the consumers who should care, heck, we can buy from japan, but Epson is giving a firm and unmistakeable middle finger to it's entire NA dealer network - heck you could almost buy two of them from Japan, in case one breaks, for the price it's holding it's american dealers up to. You can say this is volume issues but this is no playstation and the US pj market is not huge - this is just epson not giving a damn about the folks who have invested the time and effort to represent their product in a foreign market. More to the point they are flatly asking folks to ignore their dealers and purchase online. Just sad.

Not only the US.
In Europe we have to pay that amount in Euros! Which is 25% more!!!

Maybe someone here will organize a powerbuy from Japan ;)

Does anyone know if the 1000 will have the same throw distances as the 800? I need to achieve a 110" image at 11 ft. Is this possible with the 1000?

~Josh

It's not so much the consumers who should care, heck, we can buy from japan, but Epson is giving a firm and unmistakeable middle finger to it's entire NA dealer network...

That's just the way it has been with Epson. The NA models tend to get some goodies but they are for high-end installers to push and sell. Panasonic also has some Japan/NA price differences, but have since tried to make their Japanese models unattractive to NA buyers.

But those are the extreme examples. Try buying a Sony over there, or a Yamaha, or (from what I recall) even a Marantz. You're not saving anything, you pay more.

Paradigm does the same thing with their pricing in Canada. They are a Canadian company. I don't think it's so much flipping the bird to non-Canadian customers as much as it is giving people who aren't blessed with the U.S. electronics market a good break on local goods.

Anyway, I would agree for sure that Epson's marketing strategy seems ridiculous, though if we're going to single them out we have a lot more companies that need to get the spotlight as well. There are a lot of projector companies that seem to have sales policies in place that simply defy reality, but they are still in business. Perhaps Epson simply accepts the loss in volume as a necessary cost to have the Epson brand name recognized as elite, which may help drive panel sales. Maybe they do it because of deals with other projector manufacturers who use Epson panels. Who knows?

Vote with your dollar and things will change. I never in my life would have imagined the direction JVC has gone with their RS-1, and I bet that's directly due to the hand-over-fist sales (e.g. consumer voting) of Sony's latest products (or someone is not telling us how cheap the SXRD/LCOS stuff has gotten to manufacture).

Otherwise, 1080p LCD will probably be down to $3k in the U.S. from somebody by mid '07 after discounting I'm sure. Then everyone with a border on the Pacific can laugh at the European prices until the Euro rises enough to buy us all. :eek:

@beatboy77: AFAIK the Epson will have a 2.1:1 zoom. So even better than the Panasonic FullHD.

@wildfire: Problem is, that the price difference is not marginal anymore. I only know the Euro prices, which is about 1€=$1.25. And the Epson will be less than 2k Euros in Japan and about 4k€ in Germany.
So it will be about 2500 USD v. 5000 USD. That's effectively double the price. It's buy one gte one free!

Sorry, but that really makes no sense from any point of view. This far exceeds selling cheaper to the home market.
If a UK based company sells a 4k€ product for 300€ less in the UK, then that's OK. But selling something half price in this price regions is an insult to every costumer!

Both Japanese importers I contacted said they would not have the TW1000 "this year" due to "massive shortages of D6 panels".

Let's keep to the rules, but I found one that will ship in "three weeks" which I guess technically is no longer this year - but could any domestic dealer do better at this point - I don't see anyone with it in stock.

Have Epson even released firm pricing on the 1000 for the US market yet ?

The pricing in Japan on the 1000 seems to be;
YEN 305,000
USD 2,953
EUR 2,248
AUD 3,777

Last time I checked the Mits5000 (1080p) was $3000USD in Japan and 50% higher at $4500 in the US, so Epson doesn't seem to be the only the one with higher US pricing.

Joe

I believe a MAP of $4,999 has been confirmed - that's the important number to an authorized dealer anyway.

also - you can do the 1000 for 2950 shipped, the 5000 seems to run 3200 shipped - still a big delta, but tighter margin between japan and what it's being advertised for here.

Maybe I'm not seeing straight or thinking clearly since I'm completely and thoroughly impressed by the Epson 810 I recently bought, but I honestly don't see what all the price commotion is about.
If my numbers are right The Mits is streeting for $4500 here in the US and the Epson's expected MSRP is $4999 so that's $500 more for the Epson than the Mits.

So what's Epson offering for that $500 (if it does sell at MSRP)?
It's considerably brighter that the Mits offering more lumens (might be the brightest of this 1080p crop). Has better optics, a better 2.1 lens vs the Mits 1.6 offering more placement flexibility, HDMI 1.3, a higher contrast ratio of 12000:1 vs 10000:1 on the Mits, dual iris and 2yr overnight replacement warranty to name just a few differences.

I'm not one to carelessly throw money around, but does the price seem all that unreasonable ? I don't see people on the Mits5000 thread complaining about why they're paying at least $1300 more here than those in Japan.

Joe

"The Mits is streeting for $4500 here in the US "

According to pjcentral that's the MSRP

"The Mits is streeting for $4500 here in the US "

According to pjcentral that's the MSRP

$4500 is what the Mits is selling for at authorized dealers;
HC5000BL (http://www.projectorpeople.com/projectors/projdtls.asp?itemid=21437&itmname=Mitsubishi+HC5000BL)

I know someone has found the Mits at an authorized dealer for about 1/3 less, and about what one would pay to import a TW1000.

Lots of places claim to be "authorized" dealers and there's so many of them in the Brooklyn area too.

But the point is we're comparing the MSRP of the Mits at $4500 to the MSRP of the Epson 1080 at $4999 which is a $500 difference and for that difference you do get quite a bit more with the Epson to justify it. So the price isn't all that shocking, at least in my opinion.

Lots of places claim to be "authorized" dealers and there's so many of them in the Brooklyn area too.
Nope, this one is clearly listed on the Mitsubishi website as an authorized online dealer:

http://mitsubishi-presentations.com/wheretobuy/buynow.html

Right here on AVS they are selling the Mits for $3599.00. Ask Jason or Daniel.

~Josh

Wow that's 20% off MAP and AVS is still making money on it ? You mean projectorpeople (forum sponsors) are making over a $1000 on each Mits they sell ? That's insane. Even the jap 5000's are being sold on ebay for that much.

Maybe Jason or Daniel can get the same deal on the Epson 1080. It should come in around $3999.

Too bad about the low spec'd lumens. This would appear to be a less bright projector than Epson's cureent 720P offerings. I will never understand why manufacturers seem to believe that 1080P projectors only need wimpy light output when the high resolution would be most beneficial on really big screens.

I totally agree with you, Scott.
HDTV need even more brighter picture than the standard TV, dim HDTV looks awful compare to Std TV with decent brightness.

To All 1080p HDTV projector ENGINEERS : BRING IN THE LUMENS ! ! ! :D



My Carada 134" Criterion Brilliant White screen needs more brightness

I'm not one to carelessly throw money around, but does the price seem all that unreasonable ? I don't see people on the Mits5000 thread complaining about why they're paying at least $1300 more here than those in Japan.
The Mitsubishi is slightly more expensive in the US than Japan. But in Europe the Epson will be double the price! Twice the cash. Two bucks for one bang ;)

Should the louder Epson have the better picture on top of being the more flexible one, then it might be the one to buy. But not at the price Epson is asking in Europe. That price is a joke. And German retailers are not exactly know for lowering their prices significantly. I doubt you will find a Mitsu more than 200€ below MSRP (which is 3999€)!

Can someone please PM a list of Japanese retailers where I may be able to get the 1000 when it is available?

~Josh

The Mitsubishi is slightly more expensive in the US than Japan. But in Europe the Epson will be double the price! Twice the cash. Two bucks for one bang ;)

Should the louder Epson have the better picture on top of being the more flexible one, then it might be the one to buy. But not at the price Epson is asking in Europe. That price is a joke. And German retailers are not exactly know for lowering their prices significantly. I doubt you will find a Mitsu more than 200€ below MSRP (which is 3999€)!

I'm not sure where you got the idea that the Epson 1000 will be twice the Japan price in EU, it's MSRP in EU including Germany looks like 4000 euros, same EU MSRP as the Mits 5000 that you quoted at 3999.


German site google translated (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.digitalkamerakreis.de%2Fartikel 2707.html&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools) original German version (http://www.digitalkamerakreis.de/artikel2707.html)

Any of you guys in my 720p vs. 1080p debate boat, make sure you check out this thread in the >$3000 forum:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9158646&posted=1#post9158646

I'm not sure where you got the idea that the Epson 1000 will be twice the Japan price in EU, it's MSRP in EU including Germany looks like 4000 euros, same EU MSRP as the Mits 5000 that you quoted at 3999.


German site google translated (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.digitalkamerakreis.de%2Fartikel 2707.html&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools) original German version (http://www.digitalkamerakreis.de/artikel2707.html)
Yes. And there have been price reports of a japanese price even slightly BELOW 2000€. Hence, with a retail price of 4000€ in Germany and the dealers usually sticking to this price for quite some time in Europe, you have 2*2000€=twice the price.

Yes. And there have been price reports of a japanese price even slightly BELOW 2000€. Hence, with a retail price of 4000€ in Germany and the dealers usually sticking to this price for quite some time in Europe, you have 2*2000€=twice the price.

My point was that the Mits and Epson are both at the same pricing in the EU at 4000 euros on which we seem to agree.

But the Mits isn't quite as cheap as the Epson and for me personally not as interesting.
I don't understand why people don't care what they pay.
But it seems that a lot of Europeans just think hell, nothing is being built here so logically I have to pay twice as much because (although like the rest of the world) we have to pay taxes and shipping.

But I do not like being ripped of and paying lots more.

Seriously, who here would buy DVDs at retail price in GErmany? No one. DVDs are better and cheaper in the US, Australia and Asia!

If I were interested in the Mitsubishi, I would be just as angry about that price.

I had emailed one of the importers about the TW1000 over the past week and they had told me it wouldn't be here this year. But I just got this email at 3:48pm

"Suddenly, one unit of Epson TW1000 came to us.

If you order it now, we can ship it immediately..."

I won't post the rest of it to respect forum rules, but if anyone is interested, send me a PM. I just bought the TW700 last night. Wild, I probably would have jumped on this if I hadn't just ordered the other.

Sounds fishy to me.

Fishy how? I think P-J is fairly well known and generally well thought of.

What if I buy it, set it up beside the TW700 and do a comparison like they did in the other forum in Greece. Would anyone want to buy the one I don't want for a hundred dollars off what I pay?

If it is P-J then you should be fine.

No takers on my offer for a shoot-out leftover? Come on y'all, help a brother out! :D

No takers on my offer for a shoot-out leftover? Come on y'all, help a brother out! :D

I thought I was bad, but you got the disease in a really big way. lol :)
If I wasn't so happy with my 810 I might have taken you up on it, even if it meant taking sloppy seconds.

So suppose you do decide to do this selfless act of a shootout purely for scientific purposes for the better of the AVS community of course...you'll need a 1080p source to feed these things. What would you use ?

:D Yeah, I got it bad. Curiosity just eats me up. And now that I'm far enough along in life that I can afford to buy what I want, I figure, what the heck.

Shouldn't be any sloppy seconds. Even if I think the 700 is close or the same, I know someone would rather have 1080p.

I have the Panasonic Blu Ray player and I just got an email from Robert that my Toshiba HD-A2 has just shipped and should be here early next week.

So when I come back next Friday, I might have 2 brand new Epson pjs and 2 high def dvd formats to compare on a 106" screen.

AND I have a Gefen HDMI splitter so I can run them at the same time! Would be a hell of a shootout!

:D Yeah, I got it bad. Curiosity just eats me up. And now that I'm far enough along in life that I can afford to buy what I want, I figure, what the heck.

Shouldn't be any sloppy seconds. Even if I think the 700 is close or the same, I know someone would rather have 1080p.

I have the Panasonic Blu Ray player and I just got an email from Robert that my Toshiba HD-A2 has just shipped and should be here early next week.

So when I come back next Friday, I might have 2 brand new Epson pjs and 2 high def dvd formats to compare on a 106" screen.

AND I have a Gefen HDMI splitter so I can run them at the same time! Would be a hell of a shootout!

Sweet! We want pics ... oh wait, guess I should wait until you actually have some of the gear ;)

Yeah, let's see if I actually get that TW1000 or if it's already gone. If it's on its way, I should be back in town next Friday and try to hook everything up over the weekend (but will have to do it around family gatherings). Good thing I saved that tripod.

:D Yeah, I got it bad. Curiosity just eats me up. And now that I'm far enough along in life that I can afford to buy what I want, I figure, what the heck.

Shouldn't be any sloppy seconds. Even if I think the 700 is close or the same, I know someone would rather have 1080p.

I have the Panasonic Blu Ray player and I just got an email from Robert that my Toshiba HD-A2 has just shipped and should be here early next week.

So when I come back next Friday, I might have 2 brand new Epson pjs and 2 high def dvd formats to compare on a 106" screen.

AND I have a Gefen HDMI splitter so I can run them at the same time! Would be a hell of a shootout!

Dude! It sounds like you got it going on over there. Blue Ray and an HD-A2 on it's way and 2 top of the line Epson's ....hmmmm, you're living way large ! I like it.

Well I don't want to put any pressure on you, but if you can indeed set this up, I think it would be very interesting to say the least.

Yeah, let's see if I actually get that TW1000 or if it's already gone. If it's on its way, I should be back in town next Friday and try to hook everything up over the weekend (but will have to do it around family gatherings). Good thing I saved that tripod.

Do it around family gatherings ??? :eek:
Man where are your priorities ?? Don't you realize that there's thousands of us AVS'ers impatiently waiting on this information ?? I mean it's almost a national priority. I'm sure you're family will understand if you have to cancel Xmas this year :p . lol

Dude! It sounds like you got it going on over there. Blue Ray and an HD-A2 on it's way and 2 top of the line Epson's ....hmmmm, you're living way large ! I like it.

Well I don't want to put any pressure on you, but if you can indeed set this up, I think it would be very interesting to say the least.
Yeah, I'm doing OK. I don't have any other hobbies though, no golf, don't drink (save thousands a year on alcohol), don't need a sportscar, etc...So every few years I buy a few electronics.

I keep checking my email every 2 minutes waiting to here from P-J to see if it's on its way or if it was gone. If it's on the way, I'll definitely do a comparo and try to take pics, although I'm not the photographer some folks here are.

;) As a true bottom feeder, I will happily gobble up the crumbs at the table! Just can't afford the 1000 and the family.....hummmmm.......man that is a tough decision!

drum roll...
"Thanks for order. I confirmed your payment. We will ship it today."

Looks like it's on! Now, I will have Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, but I do not have a gigantic catalog of titles. Currently I have Training Day, Eight Below, The Great Raid, Gone in 60 Seconds, and Black Hawk Down on Blu-Ray. I think my HD-DVD player is coming with Batman Begins and Caddyshack (not exactly a reference title, but a must have nonetheless). I'll see if I can have Netflix send a few more HD-DVD titles while I'm gone.

I also have a TiVo S3 with Time Warner Cable, and I have a Panasonic S77 upconverting DVD player (again, no huge library of titles). No HTPC, ain't gonna be no 1:1 pixel mapping stuff going on, so don't even ask.

I do have one rule, though. There will be NO "Fifth Element". I can't stand the movie and I'm so sick of the screenshots of it that I'd rather jab the remote in my eye than watch it.

I don't have light meters, calibration software, etc...all I have is DVE, and I'm not even good with that. But the Epsons are supposed to be pretty darn close out of the box. I won't measure anything except viewing distance.

This will be a real world shootout, no "golden eye" crap. No magic cables, etc... Can the regular guy see a difference between these two on regular guy equipment? That's the question. I don't care about anybody's theories and fancy math as to what should look like what.

So we'll see what I can do next weekend. I apologize for my ill-timed vacation, but who knew I'd actually be able to score a TW1000 on its release day? :D

You lucky.... :) I wanted that one!

I do have one rule, though. There will be NO "Fifth Element". I can't stand the movie and I'm so sick of the screenshots of it that I'd rather jab the remote in my eye than watch it.
Then how about "Resident Evil" (or Apocalypse) so you can at least round out your Milla Jovovich quota? Nobody actually watches "5th" for the film itself. :)

Actually what I really want to know about this unit is how the black level is. Native panel contrast wouldn't hurt either. It seems like all we know about is the Mitsubishi 1080, which doesn't seem to be best in class (though actually being available is a major plus).

Don't know how you measure native panel contrast. I can compare the D5+ panel to the D6 panel and also my old Panasonic 500 D5 or was it D4(?) panel, I'll leave it hooked up via component to make it a 3-way (but then someone will say that's not fair to the Panasonic because HDMI "clearly" gives a better picture, hint--it doesn't :)). And there's also a Pioneer 60" plasma on that wall, so I can compare black levels to that as well. Should give some nice relatives, but no absolute measurements.

It's a shame the Epson is late to the party, would have been nice to have it in a review like the PJC shootout.

Actually what I really want to know about this unit is how the black level is. Native panel contrast wouldn't hurt either. It seems like all we know about is the Mitsubishi 1080, which doesn't seem to be best in class (though actually being available is a major plus).

How does one measure this without any equipment??

Sounds interesting.
I actually prefer non-calibrated tests if the product is adequat out-of-the-box. To me that'S the way a pj should be used. It shouldn't need calibration. Or if it does, then it should be free of charge.

Anyhow, I will be folloing this thread for updates and hope you will take some pics, even if not perfect. They just need to be good enough to see what you mean.

BTW, I like The Fifth Element. But I like more or less all Bruce movies.
Maybe you can even do a DVD v. 720p v. 1080p test.

Jacksonian

Ignore my pm...I see now you really are expecting a tw1000. When does it arrive? Can you also throw into your high priority list for testing some ESPNHD and/TNTHD, etc? Actually, see if you can compare and contrast any perceived differences in 720p HD broadcast stuff like ESPNHD and ABC HD, or 1080i HD broadcast stuff like that on CBS. One of the claims for the 1080p's is that we will realize better pq on the 1080i broadcast feeds, etc.

By the way, can't believe you are going to only test this on a scrimpy 106" screen.....with all that gear, you gotta hike up your skirt and go bigger!!!! Give us a stress test baby !! lol (teasing you of course....with sarcasm)

I forgot to check the tracking again this morning before I left (and left the tracking # on the home pc), but I'm guessing early next week, I have no idea how quickly DHL gets from Japan to the East Coast of the US.

I can definitely include some ESPN/ABC 720p and 1080i broadcast stuff. I have a TiVo S3 and get ESPN, INHD, TNT, HDNet, HBO via Time Warner, and I get all my locals OTA via antenna. The ABC/CBS/NBC stuff OTA is usually top notch. So I'll have plenty of stuff recorded for easy testing.

Yeah, my poor little 106" screen. I do wish it was bigger sometimes, but my wife thinks it's already big enough. Actually, I'm not sure I have enough throw room to go much bigger. I could maybe get to 110", don't think I can get to 120". But to do that would mean moving my cabinets below the screen that house all the equipment/speakers.

But we sit 12' from the 106", so that's about 1.5 screen widths.

How does one measure this without any equipment??
Well honestly I wasn't thinking of the equipment on hand. :o But I'd go for at least a subjective observation (which is probably more useful at this point than trying to figure out 4,938:1 versus 3,418:1) between an older gen LCD and the newer ones, with all iris tricks turned off.

The only thing that scares me away from LCD still is black level, which is uber-important to me as I'm a sci-fi/space movie buff. And DLP has those darn rainbows, which leaves LCOS however we're not seeing any bargain-priced units with that tech (though the Pearl is certainly getting down there in price).

But beyond that I saw a native panel contrast figure for D6 thrown out somewhere, either here or on some review site, and it was disappointing if accurate. I'm kind of curious just to see how well the LCD technology (not iris technology) is progressing, and I don't know if it's moving along the same as the other two competitors.

If black levels are uber important to you, then LCD may never meet your standards. Actually, CRT in a bat cave would be your drug of choice. I'm not expecting miracles with the new D6 panels, but I'm at least hoping to be able to see a substantial difference between the Panny 500 and the TW1000 when it comes to blacks.

And why do you want all iris tricks turned off? If they do it well, why wouldn't you want the iris in place?

Why don't you try out a Z5 from Projector People? You would know in less than the 4 lamp hours whether it was acceptable for you on the blacks and could send it back. Someone also said AVS would let you try one out, but I don't know if they carry the Z5.

I'll be in NC during the first week of January... any chance that is when the shootout will be :D

Will have to see on the dates, where are you visiting?

I'm available the 2nd through the 5th and again on the 7th. I'm coming from an older Panny L300u (540x960 x/smoothscreen) so I would be VERY interested in a comparison of the latest 720p LCD to 1080p LCD!

Which part of NC will you be coming to?

Hickory (well, actually Valdese)... I think it would be about an hour drive or so. But it would be worth it for me! No need to schedule a shootout around my schedule, but if you are planning one around that time, I would be honored to be invited. Thanks a bunch.
-Matt

Between 1-1.5 hours west of me, but an easy drive on 40. Let me see how the schedule pans out when I get back next Thursday.

I drive the W NC area for a living (Medical Device Sales) that is an easy 1.5+ hour drive, most on I-40 at 70mph speed limit. But Valdese to Kernersville is probably most of that 1.5hrs.

Do you know that for a fact and have a source for this? Maybe they have a deeper knowledge of the matter, but I doubt if they have information they intentionally do not share which is vital to quality.

Sorry, I can't say in a public forum.

I.

I drive the W NC area for a living (Medical Device Sales) that is an easy 1.5+ hour drive, most on I-40 at 70mph speed limit. But Valdese to Kernersville is probably most of that 1.5hrs.
It's worth it ;)

If black levels are uber important to you, then LCD may never meet your standards. Actually, CRT in a bat cave would be your drug of choice.
I used to be a CRT guy, but it just wasn't worth the effort to deal with a 5-ton lead weight with loud(ish) fans. Plus they're dim and it's a waste to run them with 2.35:1 screens, IMO. But that's an old debate we don't want to get into. :)

And why do you want all iris tricks turned off? If they do it well, why wouldn't you want the iris in place?
Just to see the differences in native panel contrast. Iris tricks are nice, but as people are saying about the RS-1/Pearl battle, iris only buys you improvements when the range of your source image's frame fits the range of the projector's contrast. Again, I'm kind of being nitpicky about what is (admittedly) a very rare effect, which is full luminance against a dark background (like a planet in space, or Gandalf's torch in a cave). That's something that I've found to be so involving in a film, that I've lived with the shortcomings of DLP just for it thus far. I want to get away from that now.

My money right now is (literally) on a Pearl, just because I think the increased native panel contrast will work, plus you get the iris so blackouts are at least near black. I wouldn't mind going to an LCD unit next year though if the performance is there (better color, better sharpness, plus it's something new).

Why don't you try out a Z5 from Projector People? You would know in less than the 4 lamp hours whether it was acceptable for you on the blacks and could send it back. Someone also said AVS would let you try one out, but I don't know if they carry the Z5.
If the Z5 was brighter I probably would have bought one a month ago. I was very tempted, as the price is phenomenal and it seemed to get good reviews for an LCD. Still, I couldn't bring myself to buy one now since I am 90% sure I wouldn't keep it, which to me seems abusive of a return policy. If I was perhaps 60% sure I would try it out.

anyone find a projection calculator or manual for this thing yet or it's throw ratio yet?

I'm trying to figure out what distance I'd need for a 50" high image on 1.00x zoom.

Is Sanyo Z5 much brighter than Z4?

Can anybody confirm this? In fact and real comparison, not on data sheet.

As I am looking for a much brighter Projector for my 134" Carada screen. My Z4 is dim. Any suitable projector out there?

Is Sanyo Z5 much brighter than Z4?

Can anybody confirm this? In fact and real comparison, not on data sheet.

As I am looking for a much brighter Projector for my 134" Carada screen. My Z4 is dim. Any suitable projector out there?
Well, this isn't a Sanyo thread, so if you want info about the Z5, you should probably ask it in a Z5 thread in the <$3000 forum.

But if you want something "much brighter" then you're looking at the Panasonic AX100 or Epson 810/700 (or maybe one of the DLP's), those 2 are the brightest we know of right now.

Well, this isn't a Sanyo thread, so if you want info about the Z5, you should probably ask it in a Z5 thread in the <$3000 forum.

But if you want something "much brighter" then you're looking at the Panasonic AX100 or Epson 810/700 (or maybe one of the DLP's), those 2 are the brightest we know of right now.

Thanks Jack,

I have been asking that question in many difference forum, most of the reply I get seem not convincing, some suggested to wait for 2007, where lots of new 1080p projectors will be available, and hopefully some with much brighter Lumens.

I am here because someone mentioned the Z5 before.

Are you looking for a 1080p projector? If you just want a really bright pj, then definitely save yourself some money and go with the Epson 700/810 or the AX100. If you want 1080p, then this Epson 1000 may indeed be the brightest of the bunch. I should have one in a few days, although I won't have any of the other 1080p pjs to compare brightness.

Are you looking for a 1080p projector? If you just want a really bright pj, then definitely save yourself some money and go with the Epson 700/810 or the AX100. If you want 1080p, then this Epson 1000 may indeed be the brightest of the bunch. I should have one in a few days, although I won't have any of the other 1080p pjs to compare brightness.

Yes I am looking for a full 1080p projector, well to be ahead of technology, sort of . . . :rolleyes:

You're going to have a tough time finding a 1080p pj that will sufficiently fill your 134" screen.

You're going to have a tough time finding a 1080p pj that will sufficiently fill your 134" screen.

Thanks Jack, you are right and you are not alone.

But I can feel the right projector just around the corner, right ?

By the way, how many LUMENS can be consider bright enough (with some reserve) for my 134" 16:9 Carada Criterion Brilliant White screen in a total dark light controlled fully dedicated HT room.

Any suggestion ?

I'll have a TW1000 hopefully tomorrow or Tuesday, but I'm not sure if I'll be able to help you much, I only have a 106" screen and I don't even have enough room length (throw length) to throw 134" on a wall to see how it would look for you.

Does your Carada screen have any gain to it? If I were in your shoes with a screen that big, I might get the AX100 for cheap and hold out for a really bright 1080p. Who knows, maybe Panasonic will have so much success with the AX100 that they'll make a 1080p version next year. But I think you'd get much more satisfaction out of the lumens than you would the resolution (although at that size, the resolution would be very important).

I'll have a TW1000 hopefully tomorrow or Tuesday, but I'm not sure if I'll be able to help you much, I only have a 106" screen and I don't even have enough room length (throw length) to throw 134" on a wall to see how it would look for you.

Does your Carada screen have any gain to it? If I were in your shoes with a screen that big, I might get the AX100 for cheap and hold out for a really bright 1080p. Who knows, maybe Panasonic will have so much success with the AX100 that they'll make a 1080p version next year. But I think you'd get much more satisfaction out of the lumens than you would the resolution (although at that size, the resolution would be very important).

The gain of Carada is 1.4.
OK, keep me posted after you get that Epson.

The Eagle Has Landed @ 4:30pm

http://aycu22.webshots.com/image/8101/2002864424720486541_rs.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2002864424720486541)

Nice looking PJ!

Jacksonian,

We need an initial review soon!!

~Josh

Nice PJ! Can't wait for your impressions. I own the 400 and think it a great projector. definatley better than my previous PJ (HDPJ52). You have it up an running yet?

Its obvious we're going to be getting some screen shot, Right?

Could you choose the color black or white?

It probably will be my next projector, so I am very excited your initial opinion, and maybe some screenshots :)

Regards,
Milimetr

For those not following the story, I purchased both the TW700 (720p) and the TW1000 (1080p), both imports. The TW700 should have been here today also, but got delayed by customs and should be here hopefully by Wednesday, maybe even tomorrow.

For now, I have my Panasonic AE500 pj to compare to. I have BluRay, HD-DVD, and high def via Time Warner and OTA recorded on my TiVo S3. So that, to me anyway, is what the average "HT enthusiast" would have to watch.

So anyone requesting light meters, test patterns, magic cables, etc... need not apply here. This is a real world test on a real world set up and my conclusions will be what you could expect to see in a similar setup. Anyone wishing to watch test wedges in a clean room in silicon valley, like I said...need not apply.

On the color, the US version is black (I think) and the import version is white/pearl/silver. Although I prefer the looks of the black version by itself, this version actually blends much better for those of us with white ceilings.

Anyone wishing to watch test wedges in a clean room in silicon valley, like I said...need not apply.

You crack me up dude ! LOL
You mean you're not going test it using Nasa certified test wedges on Tuesday at exactly 10:43pm GMT during the low tide in Tahati coinciding with the highly anticipated solar eclipse of the outer moon of Pluto ? ;)

Glad it arrived safe and sound. Hope you have fun with it and thanks for taking the time to do all this for us. Post some screenshots and your observations as soon as you find the time.

Joe

I'm thinking a new thread for the comparison stuff will be the best way to do it. Because I'm going to need to "build" the page as I go along. I'll start with the setup and equipment, etc...then start getting into some screenshots.

And as we all know with screen shots, they may or may not effectively show what we're seeing in real life. So I will make notes to that effect. Also note that I'm using a Canon Elph 5MP, not some fancy SLR, f-stop, shudder, mumbo jumbo, yada yada.

Can anyone remember what generation LCD panel is in the Panasonic 500? Is it a D5 or D4?

[QUOTE=jacksonian]For those not following the story, I purchased both the TW700 (720p) and the TW1000 (1080p), both imports. The TW700 should have been here today also, but got delayed by customs and should be here hopefully by Wednesday, maybe even tomorrow.

Is the TW700 the US version for the Powerlite 400?

Can anyone remember what generation LCD panel is in the Panasonic 500? Is it a D5 or D4?

500=D4

[QUOTE=jacksonian]For those not following the story, I purchased both the TW700 (720p) and the TW1000 (1080p), both imports. The TW700 should have been here today also, but got delayed by customs and should be here hopefully by Wednesday, maybe even tomorrow.

Is the TW700 the US version for the Powerlite 400?

No,
TW700 = Epson Procinema 810 (Epson's flagship 720p)

Can anyone remember what generation LCD panel is in the Panasonic 500? Is it a D5 or D4?I'm pretty sure it isn't D5. Must be D4 or even D3. I'll try to confirm this.

Is the TW700 the US version for the Powerlite 400?No, the TW700 is the same as the US Epson PowerLite Pro Cinema 810.

jacksonian, weren't you supposed to have gone away on holiday? :)

From the box I cannot tell, but those the Epson actually have HDMI 1.3 or will only the upcoming production units have HDMI 1.3?

Looking forward to your non-scientific tests ;)

Joe or anyone else with an Epson, what's the "Output Scaling" setting do? It was set on 92% out of the box.

Teaser: Picture looks great, on first glance, appears to be a significant improvement over the Panasonic 500, which it should be! :D

The Eagle Has Landed @ 4:30pm [/URL]

LETS THE EAGLE FLY H.I.G.H ! ! !

Jack, is it BRIGHT enough ??? :D

The big question for me is if it will do vertical stretch (tall skinny people) and horizontal stretch at 720p and 1080i/p? I want to use this projector in an anamorphic setup with a fixed VC lens, so I hope it does!

Joe or anyone else with an Epson, what's the "Output Scaling" setting do? It was set on 92% out of the box.

Teaser: Picture looks great, on first glance, appears to be a significant improvement over the Panasonic 500, which it should be! :D

Output scalling is overscan on most other projectors. If you're connected over HDMI usual you just set it to Auto.

Joe or anyone else with an Epson, what's the "Output Scaling" setting do? It was set on 92% out of the box.

Teaser: Picture looks great, on first glance, appears to be a significant improvement over the Panasonic 500, which it should be! :D

I'm giddy over the prospect of seeing this!

Can I, can I huh? Can I, can I huh? Can I, can I huh?......... :p

Please tell us where to purchase this Epson 1080p TW1000 projector. I understand this projector is not yet released in U.S.A and since I am in the market shopping for a 1080p Epson is my first choice.
Can some one recommend trustworthy importer or a dealer from Japan.
Thanks

From the Panasonic BluRay Training Day
http://aycu06.webshots.com/image/8005/2000334883770580843_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000334883770580843)

http://aycu37.webshots.com/image/8876/2000352892853132835_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000352892853132835)

http://aycu14.webshots.com/image/6973/2000377323126743784_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2000377323126743784)

Remember, I'm not a photographer! The screenshots really don't capture how good the picture is. I'll post some comparisons with my old Panasonic 500 with 446 hours on the lamp. The screenshots still won't show the improvements and in some cases make it appear that the Panasonic looks better, I can assure you it doesn't, it's the camera not being able to capture the image correctly (or the operator :D).

From Black Hawk Down on Blu-Ray:
http://aycu36.webshots.com/image/6475/2003773345294912172_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2003773345294912172)

NBC OTA 1080i ballgame in comparable Theatre Black and Cinema modes:
http://aycu09.webshots.com/image/7488/2003767318392958298_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2003767318392958298)

Same image in Living Room mode (Epson) and Dynamic (Panny):
http://aycu34.webshots.com/image/9513/2003795667133514482_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2003795667133514482)

Same image, same modes, 2 lamps and 4 can lights on (2 next to screen):
http://aycu35.webshots.com/image/7674/2003766872712526318_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2003766872712526318)

Here you can see how close the lights are:
http://aycu12.webshots.com/image/8851/2003732392672295479_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2003732392672295479)

EDIT: Note that the Epson is still only in "living room" mode with high lamp in these shots, there's a "Dynamic" mode that's even brighter!

Thats not fair putin it up against an old panny like that. :) Nice Shots.

As I mentioned, the camera doesn't do it justice. Here's the bottom line on the comparison:

The Panasonic has smoothscreen and SDE has never been an issue. But when I walk up the screen, at 3-4 feet, I can see the pixels on the Panasonic. The pixels on the TW1000 look about 1/4 the size. Virtually no visible pixel structure unless you stand 1-2 feet from the screen, very impressive.

At normal viewing distances, and even closer, I cannot see more detail in the 1080p image. I just can't. The picture is smoother, cleaner, better contrast, better colors and more depth, but not more detail.

The improvements in LCD panels from the D4 to D6 are significant. Blacks are much better, contrast is much better, image is cleaner. But I think the credit for the colors goes to Epson.

From the 720p ballgame, I don't think the camera captures this well. The pic makes the TW1000 seem blown out, but in reality it looked MUCH better than the Panasonic. There was tons of digital noise in the Panasonic picture, clearly seen in the man's head:
http://aycu34.webshots.com/image/7873/2003588474417911000_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2003588474417911000)

From SPR on HBO-HD
http://aycu16.webshots.com/image/8175/2003569683537067162_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2003569683537067162)

From James Bond trailer on INHD
http://aycu23.webshots.com/image/6342/2003588927086536050_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2003588927086536050)

Thats not fair putin it up against an old panny like that. :) Nice Shots.
Agreed, definitely not a fair fight at all. But it's all I had for comparison until the TW700 comes. I'm interested to see how the D5+ panels on the TW700 bridge the gap between the two.

This demonstration is still very useful to me though. It's clear that there's really no more detail being shown even with the resolution difference. The striking differences here are in blacks, contrast, colors, and fixed pattern noise.

Now with LCD, that *may* mean that the D6 panels (which only come in 1080p right now) are the way to go. But I'll let you know as soon as the TW700 gets here to compare.

From Batman Begins on HD-DVD, this showed a noticeable difference in blacks and contrast in real life, not sure if it will show up on your monitor:
http://aycu06.webshots.com/image/9485/2001214515675433285_th.jpg (http://allyoucanupload.webshots.com/v/2001214515675433285)

Hi,

I am new to the forum - first of all - great to see that the EPSON seem to be much better than the Panasonic 500 - thanks for your efforts - I am considering the TW1000 (aka powerLite 1080 as well) My main concern would be the 1080p resolution @ 24 fps

Did you have any chance to test this?

(I'd imagine that you have prpbably other things to do but maybe you can have an eye on this?)

Thaks for your impressions and congratulations to your new gadget - in Germany the TW1000 will be on sale earliest Geb. 2007 :-/

Perhap next time, put the small images in the forum and let us link to larger ones. These giant images don't even fit in my browser window w/o scrolling.

Black level on the Epson looks way better than the panny. Also, are you watching 1080i or 1080p material? I expect that 720p will look very similar on both units for sharpness. Might even look slightly worse on the Epson b/c of scaling.

Edit: I just saw your mention of 1080p content. Missed it with it mixed among the humongous pictures! :P

-- jaydillyo

Dude your screenshots are HUGE ! but nice work :)
Thanks for taking the time to post them. Didn't think you'd get them online tonight.

Interesting to hear that the 1000's pixels are so tight that SDE is not an issue even at a few feet. Look forward to your comparisons between the TW1000 and TW700.

Agreed, definitely not a fair fight at all. But it's all I had for comparison until the TW700 comes. I'm interested to see how the D5+ panels on the TW700 bridge the gap between the two.

This demonstration is still very useful to me though. It's clear that there's really no more detail being shown even with the resolution difference. The striking differences here are in blacks, contrast, colors, and fixed pattern noise.

Now with LCD, that *may* mean that the D6 panels (which only come in 1080p right now) are the way to go. But I'll let you know as soon as the TW700 gets here to compare.

It will defiantly be a much better fight. Looking foward to it. Enjoy your new Machine and thanks for the efforts you put into this comparison. Much appreciated.
And once again nice screeshots.