Runco DHD Video Processor? [Text View]

Andrewg@16paws

10-13-06, 10:29 PM

Curt asked: Andrew, are you still working for Runco or ?

Actually, I'm an independent consultant, so I never worked for Runco so much as with Runco. And by Runco, I mean Sam as much as anybody else. This gave both of us a lot of flexibilty, which I believe resulted in a superior product. From the computer and telcom engineering world I brought an analytical detail to the development, including the user interface. Sam and Jim kept me reigned into the video world, so that you wouldn't need an engineering degree to operate it (at one time during development you could select every known theatrical aspect ratio on a menu - something that would easily confuse the casual user). One thing I'm very proud of is that the scaling is pixel accurate (I use infinite precision rational numbers and fixed point computations) so that once the scaler timing is properly set for the video source, you will get the benefit of every pixel coming from the source. I worked hard to downplay the need for any kind of "overscan" which I consider an anachronism in the world of fixed pixel displays. And the front panel, IR interface and serial port all operate simultaneously (try it out!).

Chris, I understand what you want to know. But it is only a shortcut for you, and in all honesty, it wouldn't be fair for you to crib the failures of other implementations of similar hardware to the Runco product. If there are known shortcomings of other scaler boxes, by all means, look for them in the DHD. I'd like to know if I missed something, and have the opportunity to improve it. I spent a lot of time on every chip databook looking for ways to avoid corner cases, and improve performance. We ran into all kinds of hardware limitations and bugs that took a lot of creativity to surmount. Unlike the Runco product, as Jim has already pointed out, there is a strong tendency in the consumer market to take a chip manufacturer's reference design, and simply put it in production (in the far East, they'll first cost reduce it by every last nickel possible - at great cost to quality). I know this from my years of experience at a well known chip company in the Bay Area.

I can guarentee you that the DHD is nothing like a reference design - closer to three or four combined. It would be a much better execise to try to find the "known" problems in an off-the-shelf DHD, and let me know what you find. There are limitiations to the product because we could not travel into the future when it was designed. Here's another datapoint: the DHD hardware design represents perhaps 1 man year of effort. The DHD firmware is about 5 man years. I hope I didn't let any cats out of the bag with that.

Andrew

ChrisWiggles

10-14-06, 12:50 AM

I don't think it's unreasonable to be curious about whose chips you're using. It's a fairly important thing. The fact that nobody is willing to state this raises red flags in my mind. Maybe those flags are totally unwarranted, but if I'm to be reasonably intelligent, I'm not going to just "believe" right-out because somebody said so.

The best piece of information I have is Peter's gumption that it's gennum-based. Of course, that bodes extremely poorly for you and Runco, given Peter's reputation for being one piece of straw beyond crazy.

It also bodes poorly for my perception of Runco as a forthright company, which to be honest wasn't the highest to begin with.

Gordon McGlade

10-14-06, 12:56 AM

Andrew, what an eloquent response.

Perhaps the Runco bashers can now go and look for some other product or manufacturer to have a go at.

Jim, well done you too!

Gordon

ChrisWiggles

10-14-06, 01:01 AM

Alright, I guess I'll go "have a go" by asking simple and rational question to someone who will actually address them. :rolleyes:

Gordon McGlade

10-14-06, 01:05 AM

Chris

Let people believe in the brand they buy, whatever it is. You do what you what.

But to save some face and any credability you might think you have do bash a company or a product like you have when you are clearly ignorant of the facts.

Those of us that do know the facts can honestly say Runco is a " forthright company " and does make fantastic products, you only need to ask their customers.

lktanx

10-14-06, 04:37 AM

I believe Chris's question is very fair. It is not surprising that Runco develops their own firmware, many other manufacturers do so as well.

Chip manufacturers may supply their own reference board and reference firmware, but system manufacturers such as Runco, Lumagen etc need to modify or re-write the reference firmware to support their specific product. For example, the number of I/Os might be different, user interface may be different, etc ,etc.

But the core of the algorithms reside in the chip used. And based on this knowledge we can have a perception of the strengths and weaknesses of the design.

An analogy is the following; when one buys a PC, we get to choose the processor, whether it is a Intel Core 2 Duo or an AMD dual core equivalent. We know what the advantages and disanvantages of either of these chips are and as such this can help us decide which to purchase. When you buy a PC from Dell, the motherboard says "Dell" on it. The firmware (bios) is developed by Dell, the operating system most likely Microsoft. So yes, this is a Dell PC, but the "power" of the PC resides in the processor whether it is Intel or AMD.

Similarly, the Runco video processor has a Runco board, Runco firmware, but the "power" of the system is in the video processing chip.

Curt Palme

10-14-06, 09:43 AM

lktanx, well put.

You have to wonder sometimes if passion for a product, be it low end or high end = ignorance and tunnel vision. (pun intended)

CINERAMAX

10-14-06, 10:38 AM

The best piece of information I have is Peter's gumption that it's gennum-based. Of course, that bodes extremely poorly for you and Runco, given Peter's reputation for being one piece of straw beyond crazy.

.

Interesting choice of words. If that is the price to pay for perfectionism in Video, fine I'll wear your little label, and the propeller hat.

The fact is that a whole contingent from these forum attends these conventions, report this and report that but never have the balls to state out which the best video image was. Arts due dilligence in this CEDIA being an exception (although he should learn to pick up green pushes when evaluating SIM2 PJ's, as it is obvious, and undermines the great efforts that DPI has gone to in order to filter out UNDESIRABLE SPECTRAE).

For close to two decades I have consistently worked on picking out the best images at these shows, NOBODY (SPECIALLY DARIN which is all intrumentation but a bit of a lightweight in the eyeball department) picked up the holly grail of images at INFOCOMM, the barco FLM HD 14, it later turned out that a great many Industrial integators (who have reputaions for not being as technically saavy as the HT crew) voted this projector the best image at the show, which is still better than the best image at CEDIA.

So when I see a very clean transparent image on the video processor of the Runco across a parade of low and hi def sources, it reminded me of the mental reference (FLM) which uses a genum (Which looks very different from a Teranex).

Perhaps that sheds some light as to the method behind my madness. :cool:

Gordon McGlade

10-14-06, 11:12 AM

Jim Burns

10-14-06, 01:46 PM

All,

Andrew and I can’t tell you what is in there because we do not think it is appropriate. We worked on the project; I would hope that all of you understand that.

Peter,

I think you may be more than a single straw past crazy…. but good eye! I would agree with your assessment and have come to the same conclusions if I did not know better…….. ;) You are not correct. (I will not continue with the guessing game)

ChrisWiggles

10-14-06, 02:29 PM

Andrew and I can’t tell you what is in there because we do not think it is appropriate. We worked on the project; I would hope that all of you understand that.

Sorry to dissappoint you, but no I don't feel that is appropriate. You're certainly free to do so of course, but realize that it betrays certain negative attitudes.

Other companies are generally quite proud of having utilized quality processing chipsets as the foundation of processing design either in a standalone processor or a display's processing capabilities.

In the odd absense of any such disclosure which as any company one would be proud of, you have to realize that I must assume the negative, because who would not want to reveal the nature of their processing unless it were not a positive revelation?

Once again, it's yet another Runco question that will never be answered.

lktanx

10-14-06, 02:37 PM

Similarly, the Runco video processor has a Runco board, Runco firmware, but the "power" of the system is in the video processing chip.

Oh dear Iktanx how niaive your really are. The power of the system is what makes up the system, not a component. Did you read Jim´s post? Obviously not thouroughly enough.

Obviously if one were to delete one line of code in the firmware, the whole system will/could fail. So every component, whether it is firmware or hardware is critical to the performance of the system.

No one is disputing the importance of the whole system. The question is which part of the system performs the core functions of video processing. The video processor performs these core functions hence our interest in which chip is used.

I respect Runco's right to keep the information on the video processing chip secret. It is after all their product.

However, it would be nice if Runco would supply data on the performance of the whole unit. By this I mean data on specific deinterlacing, scaling, cadence detection tests results.

At the very least, as a possible purchaser of such a unit, I would like to see it reviewed by an independent source who is capable of exercising the unit thru a whole slew of tests. I think this is only fair to the client.

Andrewg@16paws

10-14-06, 02:51 PM

lktanx wrote:

I believe Chris's question is very fair. It is not surprising that Runco develops their own firmware, many other manufacturers do so as well.

Chip manufacturers may supply their own reference board and reference firmware, but system manufacturers such as Runco, Lumagen etc need to modify or re-write the reference firmware to support their specific product. For example, the number of I/Os might be different, user interface may be different, etc ,etc.

But the core of the algorithms reside in the chip used. And based on this knowledge we can have a perception of the strengths and weaknesses of the design.

An analogy is the following; when one buys a PC, we get to choose the processor, whether it is a Intel Core 2 Duo or an AMD dual core equivalent. We know what the advantages and disanvantages of either of these chips are and as such this can help us decide which to purchase. When you buy a PC from Dell, the motherboard says "Dell" on it. The firmware (bios) is developed by Dell, the operating system most likely Microsoft. So yes, this is a Dell PC, but the "power" of the PC resides in the processor whether it is Intel or AMD.

Similarly, the Runco video processor has a Runco board, Runco firmware, but the "power" of the system is in the video processing chip.

I'm sorry but your analogy is too good, though you only scratch the surface. First of all, you seem to think that the CPU is the only important component in a PC. This neglects the very important role played by the northbridge and southbride chipsets (AMD has integrated the northbridge into the CPU in its Opteron line), and the "super I/O". It is the chipset that determine if you have PCI, PCIX, PCI64, PCI-E, IDE speed, SATA, etc - but sometimes a manufacturer will not implement it all on a particular product. The BIOS is even more important, because it is responsible for performance well outside of the control of the CPU and operating system - they are configured to be specific to the board they are on. A good BIOS includes features like network, USB, or Firewire booting, automatic cooling fan speed control, wake one ring/LAN, and power saving modes like APM and ACPI (many BIOS implementations fumble on both of these). Now, many consumers' computer experience limits their PC selection to the color of the box and what a salesman tells them. That's why they will often select a brand name they respect. Other consumers will closely examine the features and seek out reviews about the performance of the computer. A box may have great hardware, but the BIOS may stink. I recall a Dell box that came with a busted BIOS that would not assign a PCI interrupt to the video card, which crippled the system. So even knowing which CPU & chipset is used, you will still not know all the features & shortfalls of a system. "The proof of the pudding is in the eating."

When it comes to video scalers and processors, while they may based on similar chips, there are litterally hundreds of configuration settings on each one that can make all the difference in the world. Often, many complex chips must be integrated correctly to make the product work. There are many other design decisions that can make or break a product. For example, ask yourself how you would optimize the color correction of a processor with SD & HD RGB and YUV analog as well as SD & HD digital inputs? Would you use a single digital correction after the scaler, or at the analog front ends or somewhere in between, or some combination? Would you do it in YUV, HSV or RGB color space? These are some of the design decisions that must be made to develop a product, guided by performance, quality, or time constraints. So you can see that the "power" is in the entire implementation, including the chip selection, integration and firmware design.

Now realize that there is zero chance that you are going to be able to goad me into violating my NDA with Runco. If Sam doesn't want the details of his hardware revealed, that's his call to make. Honestly, I can't see why you and Chris aren't up to the challenge of finding out the shortcomings of the DHD on your own, without having them handed to you on a silver platter. It really shouldn't be that hard if you already know the limitations of other systems. That's what I would do.

Andrew

ChrisWiggles

10-14-06, 02:53 PM

Jim Burns

10-14-06, 03:08 PM

Wow Chris, you are a glass half empty type of guy.

lktanx

10-14-06, 03:10 PM

When it comes to video scalers and processors, while they may based on similar chips, there are litterally hundreds of configuration settings on each one that can make all the difference in the world. Often, many complex chips must be integrated correctly to make the product work. There are many other design decisions that can make or break a product. For example, ask yourself how you would optimize the color correction of a processor with SD & HD RGB and YUV analog as well as SD & HD digital inputs? Would you use a single digital correction after the scaler, or at the analog front ends or somewhere in between, or some combination? Would you do it in YUV, HSV or RGB color space? These are some of the design decisions that must be made to develop a product, guided by performance, quality, or time constraints. So you can see that the "power" is in the entire implementation, including the chip selection, integration and firmware design.

Andrew

Certainly there are hundreds of settings and quite possibly millions of combinations of these settings. The key here is that if a mistake is made in these settings, a firmware upgrade can be used to correct it. This is similar to a PC, where one can perform a bios upgrade or a Windows update. I believe most/all video processing boxes can do this nowadays.

The key here is that the video processing chip limits what the base algorithms consists of. For example if the video processing chip only has the memory to perform a 3 frame scan for deinterlacing, there is nothing the firmware could do to increase this.

Yes, every piece of the system is important, but there are ones which are more important than others. Specifically there are components in the system which sets the baseline limit of performance of the system. This component is the video processing chip.

ChrisWiggles

10-14-06, 03:13 PM

Also, I think at this point in time it's appropriate for me to point out that user "Gordon McGlade" has an interest as an A/V dealer, one can only assume as a Runco dealer.

lktanx

10-14-06, 03:17 PM

Now realize that there is zero chance that you are going to be able to goad me into violating my NDA with Runco. If Sam doesn't want the details of his hardware revealed, that's his call to make. Honestly, I can't see why you and Chris aren't up to the challenge of finding out the shortcomings of the DHD on your own, without having them handed to you on a silver platter. It really shouldn't be that hard if you already know the limitations of other systems. That's what I would do.

Andrew

Like I said in a previous post, Runco does not have to release the information on the chip they use as it is afterall their product and they can market it however they please. I believe most other manufacturers have a more open approach to this which I respect.

But I would like to see benchmark tests and comparisons between Runco and other manufacturers before making a decision to purchase. I think this is only fair to me, the consumer.

ChrisWiggles

10-14-06, 03:20 PM

Wow Chris, you are a glass half empty type of guy.

Not unless I can actually see the glass and that it has something in it.

I'm being told, essentially "you don't understand the complexity that goes into a processor design," that the chipsets used are a miniscule part of the product, and that the product implementation is what matters, and of course that Runco has executed a perfect implementation.

And I'm also being told by a trolling Runco dealer (Mr. McGlade) with forum baggage that I am the one who is unwarranted in my simple question.

Would it be fair for me to ask what series of DMD is in a particular projector? I mean, from my perspective, it's the same thing. There is a great deal of implementation beyond just the DMD, but you can't get around that fundamental component either.

CINERAMAX

10-14-06, 03:25 PM

Also, I think at this point in time it's appropriate for me to point out that user "Gordon McGlade" has an interest as an A/V dealer, one can only assume as a Runco dealer.

I have no interest, in fact can state that Runco PJ's have always looked like "also rans" to me up till this latest generation. It takes a lot of balls to blow up a ben hur dvd to a 20 foot wide image, and switch/compare it back and forth with an HD master server content of King Kong.

Hey maybe this scaler is not so great without the anamorphic lens, but with the anamorphic lens the scaler is top shelf.

Jim Burns

10-14-06, 03:25 PM

Chris, and your motivation is? (this is a rhetorical question, Chris do you know what a rhetorical question is?)

Why dosn't someone send an e-mail off to Runco to see if they tell you. You are talking to two outside contracters. and a distributor

mdsmmfd

10-14-06, 03:27 PM

It also bodes poorly for my perception of Runco as a forthright company, which to be honest wasn't the highest to begin with.

Once again, it's yet another Runco question that will never be answered.

Who's the troll?

ChrisWiggles

10-14-06, 03:37 PM

Great. Now my intelligence is being insulted by Mr. Burns.

Next I bet I'll be accused of having cooties.

Edit: oh and as for the accusation that I have some kind of hidden motivation, you're going to come up empty there. I have no affiliation to any A/V brand, nor do I make a penny in the field. I am an interested enthusiast. If i have any bias, it's to be friends with some video engineers who likewise do not have product-based biases and who do testing of video products and processing. Apparently that is an anti-Runco bias to be a critical person?

I thought that the original question was a valid one, and one that never got answered.

Andrewg@16paws

10-14-06, 05:09 PM

You guys crack me up. You refuse to take any initiative on your own. Go ahead and ask GM, Daimler-Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, et al what CPU they use in their engine computers. Good luck with that. Even if they told you, would that help you in any measurable way?

Secondly: yes, a reflash can fix a bug. But it's a lot more work to fix a flawed design, which is what I attempted to explain to you, but you glossed over. It is always much better to do it right from the start, than try to fix it later.

Finally, let's say the DHD uses a "BumbleBrox 2000" scaler. Of course, since the box was designed, the "BumbleBrox 2001" has been released. But it will do you no good to wait for a box with the new chip, because by then, the "BumbleBrox 2002" will be released. And, a competitor may release the the "FrangleFX" chip by then. So, let's say the DHD has "BumbleBrox 2000" in it. What good does that do you? Honestly, I can tell you there are no less than 3 scalers and two, possibly 3 different deinterlacers in the box. All on different silicon. Each piece is configured to do what it does best. No cost was spared in order to produce the best scaler product (well, the cost of the SDI receiver was spared but it is available as an option if you so desire).

Really, at this point, you're starting to sound a bit petulant. Sammy has a toy and you want it. I've told you what you can do to answer your questions, and I am open to problem reports. If you were up the the challenge, you'd go ahead and do it. But at this point, I really don't expect anything substantive, so I'm a bit disappointed. I did spend a lot of time with Jim, Sam, Pat Bradley, and I think even Joe Kane stopped by, looking for feedback, bugs and suggestions; I'd like to believe that the DHD is the best scaler of it's era, and still top shelf today. I am watching HD through a prototype version on an LCD in my bedroom as I type this, and I have no complaints.

Andrew

PS. What's "a lot of sand"?

PPS. Jim, I sent you email at the address on your web site - did that get to you?

ChrisWiggles

10-14-06, 05:29 PM

You guys crack me up. You refuse to take any initiative on your own. Go ahead and ask GM, Daimler-Chrysler, Toyota, Honda, et al what CPU they use in their engine computers. Good luck with that. Even if they told you, would that help you in any measurable way?

What does that have anything to do with anything? Last time I checked, this was an A/V forum, not a car forum. The analogy you draw here is beyond laughable.

Really, at this point, you're starting to sound a bit petulant. Sammy has a toy and you want it. I've told you what you can do to answer your questions, and I am open to problem reports.

So you expect me to buy it myself and test it myself? I'm so glad Runco has the customer's needs in mind.

If you were up the the challenge, you'd go ahead and do it. But at this point, I really don't expect anything substantive, so I'm a bit disappointed.

The "challenge?" I'm so glad I'm being "challenged." What on earth does that mean? I was curious about the original question, it wasn't addressed at all, so I pressed a little deeper and apparently ruffled some feathers because intelligent questions are not allowed. And so now YOU expect ME to purchase the product just to figure out how it performs? How ludicrous is that? And even beyond that, I get insulted for even asking the question and not bending over and taking "we don't want to tell you anything about our products at all" for a legitimate answer?

I'd like to believe that the DHD is the best scaler of it's era, and still top shelf today.

Well of course you do.

PS. What's "a lot of sand"?

As in a lot of sand that you're throwing in people's eyes.

Dennis Erskine

10-14-06, 07:52 PM

Chris:

Determining what chip or chips are in the scaler are really of minimal benefit. At the end of day, what you're really interested in is how well the scaler performs. The Runco scalers are mated to a projector and the internals are optimized for that projector, lamp and light engine. I can tell you, from experience, it's not always fun to calibrate one ... simply because the scaler has a memory for each input and each scan rate on each input; thus, if someone is running a multiplicity of sources the best results are obtained when each source and rate is individually calibrated. (You can even 'trim' the bandwidth of component inputs to solve annoying sync/noise problems from a misbehaving source. This can be a time consuming process but the results are very rewarding.

My suggestions are:

1. See if the factory or local distributor will tell what technology is inside the unit (which will not tell you how it is used or implemented), and;
2. Go spend sometime with a well calibrated unit and have the dealer/rep get into the menus so you can see what is going on (and bring some really screwed up source material).

lktanx

10-14-06, 07:56 PM

Secondly: yes, a reflash can fix a bug. But it's a lot more work to fix a flawed design, which is what I attempted to explain to you, but you glossed over. It is always much better to do it right from the start, than try to fix it later.

Yes doing it right the first time is the best, I am in absolute agreement with you here. Are you telling me that you will get your processor perfect the very first time. Does this mean that your processor has no ability to be field upgradeable? I am sure that's not the case.

I would be interested in hearing from Runco distributors. Is it true that your processor systems are perfect out of the box, without any need for any firmware upgrades?

Mr. Integration

10-14-06, 09:14 PM

Is the brand of chips that important? All DLP's use the current TI chip but the only way to determine the best is to view them

Curt Palme

10-14-06, 09:43 PM

I'll be purposely vague here.

I've dealt with a number of a/v product lines in the pro end of things. Companies like Mackie and Rolls go right down to providing schematics of their equipment right in the owner's manual. Others will sell service manuals for a nominal fee when requested. For a tech like myself, that's helpful both from a service point down the road and if I need some technical details not covered in the user manual.

Other manufacturers as such as Bose and others give sales pitches that consist of smoke and mirrors, song and dance and $1200 suits and $300 shoes, mandatory dress code for the company sales guy. Oh wait, some wear T-shirts and talk about playing pool. At one Bose sales meeting to us dealers, the Bose rep had the nerve to tell us that 'magic' made the Bose receiver work. I walked out of the meeting and told the sales rep afterwards that I would NEVER sell that product, that my intelligence was insulted by the factory rep.

I can understand that due to NDAs that you can't say what processor in it is fine, but you couldn't say that up front. You had to do the mandatory song and dance. Some of us that actually delve deeply into products that we either sell to end users or purchase for our personal use get insulted. While some end users are complete morons and have lots of money to throw around to keep up with the Jonses without knowing what they are really buying, fine, do your 'magic' spiel to them. Don't attempt to dumb down the rest of us that actually understand electronics down to a software or component level.

Curt Palme

10-14-06, 09:45 PM

I would be interested in hearing from Runco distributors. Is it true that your processor systems are perfect out of the box, without any need for any firmware upgrades?

I don't think any dealer for any product line would ever admit to issues in a public forum for fear of losing their dealership. Good luck on that one, but I'm with you!

Andrewg@16paws

10-14-06, 10:33 PM

I really hate being quoted out of context. And worse, I hate when somebody makes a deliberate misstatement of what I have written. If you look to my first post on this subject, I clearly stated "I can not tell you details about the product that Runco does not want released". I don't know how much more plain I could have been, but I should have. I tried to be nice, let the word games pass, and refrain from name-calling and innuendo, but that got me nowhere.

Secondly, I have given insight into the design of the product. Never once have I relied on "magic" and I am insensed at the inference because I'm an engineer, not a marketer. Runco doesn't have service manuals for this product (at least) because they are a small manufacturer and perform all the repair work themselves, so they can guarentee the quality. But if they did give out schematics, there would be no box labelled "magic" in them. And Bose, you had to compare me to Bose; that's not cricket - that's just mean.

Third, I have tried to give you as technical discussion as I can get away with. If you consider it "dumbded down" because I didn't drop code snippets on you, tough friggin' luck. It's not my code to share and I really doubt you'd get it all anyway. I am credited in the documentation for assisting with the Gnu compiler used to compile the firmware, so I think I have standing to say that. And I did that while working on this project.

Finally, I have recalled why I stopped posting here the last time. It's like casting pearls before swine, all the time and explanation are wasted, transformed into snivelling. I doubt you have resources to put a DHD to the test, much less purchase one, so all your moaning and groaning are for naught. Some of you are like a middle-aged women's coffe klatch, kvetching for it's own sake.

This is not, and has never been a Runco official statement of any kind. It was an attempt to help people out and has turned out to be as much fun as a sharp stick in the eye.

Andrew

Curt Palme

10-14-06, 11:00 PM

Well actually I brought up Bose because the last time I brought up another brand name and called them out, the owner of the company threatened to sue me. So much for free speech and discussion, now apparently I've offended a software engineer. Boohoo.

I wasn't comparing YOU to Bose, I mentioned Bose due to their smoke and mirror sales tactics that MANY other companies use. All I was saying was that as a tech intimately familar with many a/v products (and occasionally providing feedback to manufacturers when I catch flaws), I don't appreciate the song and dance sales technique.

You did a complete song and dance around Chris' question, others jumped in to protect you, whatever.

It certainly won't stop me from pulling the cover off a magic DHD box and will post the chip numbers and manufacturers. It's one thing to keep software protected. It's something else to attempt to hide a chip manufacturer. That's smoke to me.

ChrisWiggles

10-14-06, 11:05 PM

Well gee, I'm sorry to have caused some to have a tantrum by asking a question.

Companies like Marantz or Denon etc have no problem saying "look, we're using realta based processing" or gennum as the case may be.

Instead we get a bunch of BS about firmware implementation. Great. You'd think that's what Runco was, a firmware company. Oh, wait...

SweetSpot

10-14-06, 11:55 PM

Runco uses a customized version of the Silcon Optix Realta HQV chipset in all of their ViViX-based processing units. I already new this, but any one of you could have learned this in about 5 seconds with a Google search. Instead, you felt compelled to ignore some very insightful information into the design of a product--of which most of you know very little about--to argue that you have some inalienable human right to be privilege to a company's trade secrets.

Here is a press release concerning the Runco/Silicon Optix partnership. How's that for "smoke and mirrors." :rolleyes:

http://www.hqv.com/news/Runco.cfm?CFID=6868402&CFTOKEN=8c4295cd7fd5cc90-4A0B764B-7E90-E2A3-BDAF060E3F27807A

-Sean

ChrisWiggles

10-15-06, 12:48 AM

SweetSpot

10-15-06, 04:22 AM

I am aware of that, but it's not "all" I don't believe.

Correct, my post should have read "in all of their ViViXII-based processing units"

There is no clarity on the question of what's in the DHD, which pre-dated their use of Realta in vivixII.

The DHD is the current processor--to be replaced by the just-released DHD-2 unit--and utilizes the Realta chipset. If you desired to know what the release version of the DHD utilized you should have specified such in your original post. Generally when there is no common reference to time it's assumed that we're talking of the present, not a year ago. As far as I'm concerned, yours and OP's original question has been answered.

As to your latest addendum, I'm afraid I can be of no further assistance.

-Sean

Gordon McGlade

10-15-06, 06:44 AM

[B]"And I'm also being told by a trolling Runco dealer (Mr. McGlade) with forum baggage that I am the one who is unwarranted in my simple question"

Did I say that?

Chris you actually are insulting your own intelligence all on your own.

What exactly is a " trolling Runco dealer " and what is " forum baggage " ?

For your informtion, I am a distributor for many AV and control products, Runco being only one of many.

Your posts really are very funny. Are you a funny guy? ( or girl )

I think perhaps you should go out and buy one of those other projector brands, invite round you´re video engineer friends and then all wet yourselves watching the image and thinking how great it it.

Andrew, now I know why you stopped posting on the forum.

Jim, I´m a half full type of guy. What about you?

Jim Burns

10-15-06, 10:59 AM

Never met a half fulll glass I did not drink

Gordon McGlade

10-15-06, 11:12 AM

What´s normally in your´s?

Shall you tell them or does it not really matter?

Curt Palme

10-15-06, 11:15 AM

Runco uses a customized version of the Silcon Optix Realta HQV chipset in all of their ViViX-based processing units.

Here is a press release concerning the Runco/Silicon Optix partnership. How's that for "smoke and mirrors." :rolleyes:

http://www.hqv.com/news/Runco.cfm?CFID=6868402&CFTOKEN=8c4295cd7fd5cc90-4A0B764B-7E90-E2A3-BDAF060E3F27807A

-Sean

Ironically, the fact that the info is out there completely validates my smoke and mirrors opinion. The info was out there all along, but Andrew had to do the song and dance claiming NDAs etc. If the info was already out there, why not just post it?

Jim Burns

10-15-06, 11:53 AM

I usually drink Guiness, although a good pint of Scottish Courage is great but almost imposable to find here in the states.

Gordon McGlade

10-15-06, 01:12 PM

Mine´s usually Caledonian 80/- from Auld Reekie ( that´s Edinburgh ) but that too is hard to find here in Spain.

A Guinness will do for me too!

By the way, do these guys here make you want to pee your pants or what?

Jim Burns

10-15-06, 02:11 PM

No. They are fine. There is a lot of good info here…. and it’s fun. I read and post here because I like the forum. What kills me is I think some people have standard responses prewritten. Then they just cut and paste at will regardless of what else has been written. There is some good industry insight in the posts above, even if not all questions where “answered” to everyone’s satisfaction.

ChrisWiggles

10-15-06, 02:50 PM

What kills me is I think some people have standard responses prewritten. Then they just cut and paste at will regardless of what else has been written.

I know. That really irks me.

lktanx

10-15-06, 03:01 PM

Now that we know the what the video processor chip is, can we get performance measurements for this box? I would like to see tests on de-interlacing, scaling etc. Should we just assume the results are identical to a Realta chip? Within a year or so, I would like to look for a replacement for my Lumagen.

ChrisWiggles

10-15-06, 03:08 PM

can we get performance measurements for this box?

Good luck with that one!

Should we just assume the results are identical to a Realta chip?

Oh of course not! Remember? There's magic firmware involved. Runco makes everything themselves in a secret laboratory in a cave at the base of a volcano somewhere in the South Pacific.

Jim Burns

10-15-06, 03:36 PM

Magic, I like that. I am in the "Magic Business"

Time to get new cards printed up..... unless Disney slams me with and injunction.

lktanx

10-15-06, 04:24 PM

Good luck with that one!

I disagree, this is a fair question. A consumer should be given all the performance information on a product so that he/she can make the right decision. Furthermore, the product should be reviewed by a qualified independent reviewer and compared with other products in its class. There are several choices in the market using the Silicon Optix Realta chip. It is the fair and honest thing to do.

Dennis Erskine

10-15-06, 05:22 PM

Ironically, the fact that the info is out there completely validates my smoke and mirrors opinion. The info was out there all along, but Andrew had to do the song and dance claiming NDAs etc. If the info was already out there, why not just post it?

Not really, Curt. For those of us under NDA's (from various owners of IP), we're not allowed to disclose...period. If the information becomes public, we can disclose; however, we're not always on the distribution list and have no clue as to who has said what to whom, how much was said, nor under what circumstances. So....the best legal advice is to keep our months shut until otherwise, in writing, released from all, or a part of the IP covered in the NDA.

Dennis Erskine

10-15-06, 09:54 PM

Oh of course not! Remember? There's magic firmware involved. Runco makes everything themselves in a secret laboratory in a cave at the base of a volcano somewhere in the South Pacific.
Actually, no. I checked. That unknown but secure location is listed in the Union City, CA phone book. But, I, like you, am still trying to figure out how Runco, and all those other manufacturers out there, get the blue smoke into their boxes. It is that magic blue smoke that makes them work (and they don't work once the magic blue smoke escapes).

Curt Palme

10-15-06, 10:26 PM

I dunno Dennis, I've repaired enough Runcos that did let the smoke out to know that they do get it into their sets, and it is blue and smells bad when it comes out.

AV Doogie

10-15-06, 10:40 PM

Wow guys, lighten up. Why is it so hard to get a review sample of the processor and a sample projector. I have not seen one of the newer units reviewed in any of the Mags recently, but surely someone can come up with a unit to test??? I have been very pleased with the capability of my 'older' processor and projector combination. I have very few if any objections with the performance of this system and I have had my share of projectors to review as well. (Sharp XV-H37U, Sharp XV 12000, Runco DTV 852, Runco Vx1000Ci). By the way, nice work on the processor Jim, Andrew et al.

I was told at one time that the first processors (vivix-PFP) were designed to emulate some of the processing found in Faroudja products as well as incorporating some newer algorithms of the time.....for whatever this means.

I had my projector calibrated by Ken Whitcomb out of Indianapolis. Some of the calibration data is below. As you can see, the gray scale calibrates pretty well on these units.

Runco Vx1000Ci 2-Dec-03

ATSC/NTSC Reference
X=0.313 Y= 0.329 D6500 or D65

Results:

before
20IRE x=0.320 y=0.314 6182K
50IRE x=0.322 y=0.311 6038K
80IRE x=0.321 y=0.326 6069K

after
20IRE x=0.313 y=0.327 6491K
50IRE x=0.312 y=0.328 6547K
80IRE x=0.312 y=0.328 6545K

100IRE 17.0fL

component HD

bright 16 2
contrast 4 0
color -25
gain R 0 0
gain G -6 -6
gain B -8 -6
cutoff R 5 -2
cutoff G 22 -4
cutoff B 6 -1

Mark Petersen

10-15-06, 11:09 PM

I know. That really irks me.

I just read this thread and I have to agree with Chris. If the product uses the Realta but with FW mod's why not just come out and say it. Pretty much every other VP manufacturer has come out from the beginning and provided basic information about their chipset. Lumagen for example hasn't taken any flak for their desire to use the Realta with heavily modified FW. Knowing if it's a Realta or Gennum does give a person some key information such as whether or not it supports 1080i per pixel MAD. All of the added subterfuge just comes across as disingenuous which doesn't serve the company well because it makes it look like something is being hidden. What's even worse is that even after all the bickering the truth came out which kind of makes the whole exercise painful and a bit ugly. This is no way to build a relationship with the technical people on this forum. If a company just wants to espouse marketing fluff about a product without answering direct questions you would think they would simply stay out of the forums :)

lcaillo

10-15-06, 11:14 PM

Well said.

Andrewg@16paws

10-16-06, 02:40 AM

You people really take the cake. Not a one of you has the slightest clue what you're talking about. You all remind me of Comicbook Guy, of the Simpsons.

For those of you too lazy or too disingenous to refer to the first post of this thread, here it is in its full glory:
I was wondering if anyone knows who makes the DHD Processor for Runco or if there an equivilant sold under another name?
Oddly enough, this is the very first and only post of new user "xtrmerik".

Despite being told multiple times that the answer is Runco, Curt has to pipe up with:
I doubt it, I can't see that being the case. I had one here last year, but never pulled it open to see who made it.

I don't believe Runco actually has ever made anything from the ground up, they usually modify OEM stuff.

More people correct Curt, and here comes Chris out from left field with:
So nobody answered the question.

Who provides the video processing chips in the design?

It used to be Faroudja back in the day, but I don't think it is anymore.
Oddly, the reason that question was not answered was, quite simply, because it had not been asked. That was pretty simple; you're welcome.

It was at this point that I made the fatal mistake of attempting to confirm that the DHD is indeed a Runco product. Perhaps it was my fault that I tried to add some additional information to be helpful. But I did tell you that I do not work for Runco, and I may not reveal information that Runco chooses to maintain undisclosed. Jim Burns is in the same boat - niether of us are Runco employees. What part of that is too hard for you to understand? Get it? Runco is NOT participating in this forum, and I now understand why. What a bunch of little pissy girls you are, I can't understand why any manufacturer would deal with you.

Chris just keeps blathering on and on and on when Jim asks why he must know about the silicon in the box:
To have some frame of reference, because if it's say gennum based, or SO based etc one can have a good feel for how it performs.

Otherwise, I have to be critically skeptical as I necessarily must be. Clearly the chipsets are not designed by Runco. That much benefit of the doubt I am certainly giving Runco.

Gordon's assertions that it's exclusive to Runco would to me, be a gigantic negative in my mind. I'm willing to believe that instead they are using quality processing chipsets designed by reputable sources in their own implementation.

You go girl. Be critically skeptical you armchair know-nothing. You don't know jack squat about the hardware, and I will bet you $1000 cold cash that you don't have all the data sheets for the scaler chips and chipsets available when the DHD was designed. Put up or shut up, Mr. Big Talk. I had them, and I signed NDAs for them as well. I was with Sam as he had the major manufacturers' reps come to Union City to demo their scalers. How many manufacturers have demoed their scaler hardware for you Chris? Yeah, thought so.

Again I told Chris that I could not tell him what silicon was in the box. I even suggested that he try to find the common flaws in a DHD, and I would look into fixing anything he could find. Ooops, that sounds like work! But he just won't shut up:
I don't think it's unreasonable to be curious about whose chips you're using. It's a fairly important thing. The fact that nobody is willing to state this raises red flags in my mind. Maybe those flags are totally unwarranted, but if I'm to be reasonably intelligent, I'm not going to just "believe" right-out because somebody said so.

The best piece of information I have is Peter's gumption that it's gennum-based. Of course, that bodes extremely poorly for you and Runco, given Peter's reputation for being one piece of straw beyond crazy.

It also bodes poorly for my perception of Runco as a forthright company, which to be honest wasn't the highest to begin with.

Here he insults Peter, out of the blue. And he draws unwarrented conclusions based on the statements from two independent contractors that are contractually prohibited from revealing any information. What an obtuse blowhard he is, deliberately ignoring the information that does not suit his fancy. The obvious trend here is that Chris is a dogmatic Runco-basher. Some people are, usually because they can't afford anything but the entry level Vidikron stuff. Don't be a hater Chris; don't hate the players, hate the game. Maybe some day - keep dreaming the dream.

Again, I should have left since it was pointless to try to help. But here comes lktanx with a flawed analogy, and I foolishly enter the fray again. What a mistake, as King Chris blows it off with a one-liner:

Man! You're good! That is a LOT of sand.

And then he disparages Gordon, who made the same mistake of trying to be helpful:
Also, I think at this point in time it's appropriate for me to point out that user "Gordon McGlade" has an interest as an A/V dealer, one can only assume as a Runco dealer.
...
And I'm also being told by a trolling Runco dealer (Mr. McGlade) with forum baggage that I am the one who is unwarranted in my simple question....

God forbid Chris, we certainly can't have an A/V dealer giving any insights, especially if they disagree with your uneducated guesses and hearsay. No, we should call up a fishmonger; I'm sure his deposition will be far more meaningful. Well, more meaningful than anything you've said to date.

Oh, by now, I'm in for a penny, in for a pound. I wade into the tar pit, not realizing that nothing I say will be good enough. And that I will be misquoted, quoted out of context, and even misrepresented. All tactics of weak minds with weak arguments. Sigh, I should have seen this coming but I really did think that I could help. Not any more, thank you very much. But I do enjoy ripping a good flame.

Alas, SweetSpot found a press release that post-dates the development of the DHD, so it really settles nothing. If any of you really wanted to know what's in a DHD, you'd call Sam and ask him. But the truth is you'd really rather sit around and whine - knowledge of the chips in the box will buy you nothing. Why don't you check out one at a dealer - perhaps Gordon McGlade? I have to admit, the specs on the website are a bit thin, but there has to be some printed colateral with better information. Has Runco even begun selling the DHD as a stand-alone yet? I designed it for that, then began adding custom back-ends for the displays that the DHD would be mated to. The DHD & display are really a far more integrated system than I believe has ever been released before - some of the image correction controls can tweak the display, depending on the control, the input and the display. Ooops, sorry, I didn't mean to add any real content into an otherwise content-free thread.

Anyway, getting back to the bitch fest, Curt complains that I am "smoke & mirrors" because, as an independent, third party engineer, I was not fully up to speed on every single press release coming from marketting. You got me there Curt, I really do spend every waking moment checking on Runco's press releases, since I, like you, have nothing better to do with my life.

Suddenly, Iktanx lurched back onto the field, heading the right way and about to make the goal line:
Now that we know the what the video processor chip is, can we get performance measurements for this box? I would like to see tests on de-interlacing, scaling etc. Should we just assume the results are identical to a Realta chip? Within a year or so, I would like to look for a replacement for my Lumagen.

But he is blocked & checked by Chris, who has no interest in any real information, and spouts off this drivel:
Good luck with that one!

Oh of course not! Remember? There's magic firmware involved. Runco makes everything themselves in a secret laboratory in a cave at the base of a volcano somewhere in the South Pacific.

Sadly, Mark and Icaillo walked in at the last moment, and mistake the kvetching as actual technical talk:
I just read this thread and I have to agree with Chris. If the product uses the Realta but with FW mod's why not just come out and say it. Pretty much every other VP manufacturer has come out from the beginning and provided basic information about their chipset. Lumagen for example hasn't taken any flak for their desire to use the Realta with heavily modified FW. Knowing if it's a Realta or Gennum does give a person some key information such as whether or not it supports 1080i per pixel MAD. All of the added subterfuge just comes across as disingenuous which doesn't serve the company well because it makes it look like something is being hidden. What's even worse is that even after all the bickering the truth came out which kind of makes the whole exercise painful and a bit ugly. This is no way to build a relationship with the technical people on this forum. If a company just wants to espouse marketing fluff about a product without answering direct questions you would think they would simply stay out of the forums :)

Like I said, the Realta press release is well after the release of the DHD. There was NO subterfuge from the Runco supporters (note that Runco itself was NOT involved in this bar fight in any way, shape or form). All the attribution TO Runco by bashers is what is disingenuous. And none of this was "marketing fluff": if you can't appreciate an engineer's off-the-cuff remarks for what they're worth, then that is your problem and not mine. Perhaps you should pick a less technical hobby like stamp collecting or Pokemon. I will, however, endeavor to avoid this situation in the future by avoiding this forum. It is obvious why actual technical people rarely venture in here - it's simply unproductive. As a friend used to say: "Don't try to teach a pig to sing: it won't work and it annoys the pig."

Do I sound annoyed and PO'ed? Why yes. More than I have been in a long time. What a waste of time this exercise was. I try to help out and end up trashed by a couple of know-nothings. And they never will be anything more, because they are unwilling to do their own work themselves.

Andrew

ChrisWiggles

10-16-06, 02:58 AM

Here he insults Peter, out of the blue.

This is the only thing really worth responding to. You must be new to the forum, Peter has a very humorous and lively back and forth with many on the forums due to his unique personality. I doubt he took the remark too seriously. He is clearly an entertaining fixture of the forum both for what many might consider zany designs, to his flamboyant personality. Not to mention his claims that he invented home theater, not runco! :D

As for the entirety of your response, it's a long series of personal attacks which is really not warranted at all, and quite unprofessional. I didn't *once* call anyone names, and yet I get my intelligence insulted, not to mention then a series of homophobic and sexist remarks against my person. The closest thing was to refer to user McGlade as a "trolling Runco dealer" which I think anyone can see is not an unfair characterization as he made no substantial comments in the thread at all, and if you view that poster's history in the archives you can see similar behavior in the past. No big deal.

It is obvious why actual technical people rarely venture in here - it's simply unproductive.

Actually, there is probably not a more technically populated forum on the planet. The number of senior engineers on this forum from a variety of companies and interests are pretty astounding. You might hang out and learn a thing or two.

Anyway, thank you for stooping to the level of personal insults, I am greatly appreciative of your attempts to answer what I felt was not an unreasonable line of questioning.

I have a Runco 992 Ultra on my cieling. Maybe I can give you a tour of the chassis some time and teach you a few things about it.

ChrisWiggles

10-16-06, 03:09 AM

I dunno Dennis, I've repaired enough Runcos that did let the smoke out to know that they do get it into their sets, and it is blue and smells bad when it comes out.

This explains so much about you Curt! :p :D

Mark Petersen

10-16-06, 05:08 AM

You people really take the cake. Not a one of you has the slightest clue what you're talking about. You all remind me of Comicbook Guy, of the Simpsons.

What a bunch of little pissy girls you are

Chris just keeps blathering on and on

You go girl. Be critically skeptical you armchair know-nothing. You don't know jack squat about the hardware,

Wow, if you go back and read the quotes above with a french accent it kind of sounds like the scene from Monty Python and the Holy Grail where the french soldiers are insulting the English. "Your mother was a hamster and your father smells of elderberries!".

Okay if Jim Burns and Andrew don't work for Runco and are therefore unable to answer simple technical questions professionally about the product can we get someone in here who can? If Sam or someone from Runco is listening, please use this example on how to rollout a successful video processor on this forum - Successful Marketing 101 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=712781)

Curt Palme

10-16-06, 09:06 AM

I have a Runco 992 Ultra on my cieling. Maybe I can give you a tour of the chassis some time and teach you a few things about it.

I doubt it. I'm sure Andrew designed it, built it, and remotely tells each electron where to go on the tube face. And if you didn't buy it new, then you are a full blown heathen.

I personally am worth nothing, I own a 9" set that isn't a Runco.

Geez Andrew, mellow out. Your post above is about the biggest attack I've ever had here in my 14,000+ post count. I'm not offended. Have at it, I can take it.

Gordon McGlade

10-16-06, 09:34 AM

Hey Chris, is that Chris as in Christopher or Chris as in Christina?

Anyway, I asked you a question and you still haven´t answered it.

What is a trolling Runco dealer and forum baggage?

Christ! Oops sorry Chris, ( perhaps you do walk on water ), my comments are based on information you do not have access to just like Jim and Andrew´s.

Now stop throwing your dummy out of the pram, wake up and smell the glove.

This is a big boy´s ( and girl´s ) world.

We really had laugh when you bought into that old press release! You actually believed it and it still wasn´t enough. Oh dear.

Listen sweatheart, don´t get too upset about the sex thing, how am I to know if you are or are not a girlie.

It was the Wiggles that confused me.

Gordon

P.S. Gordon is a boy´s name. I am a man and I am not gay! OK!

Gordon McGlade

10-16-06, 09:45 AM

Andrew

Chris is " Perpetually Confused ".

Poor darling!

Curt Palme

10-16-06, 09:55 AM

Perhaps Chris doesn't want to stoop to your childish name calling?

And what's wrong with being gay? You've now offended at least one forum member here.

Jim Burns

10-16-06, 10:01 AM

I just wish everyone knew Andrew well enough to here that rant in his voice. (Glad the little ones where here to read that and get a good insight into what working with a software guy is like). Andrew gave some good insight into product design I am sure some of the normal non posting members got it.

Thanks for the link to how to market a scalar. I will pass that on. I am glad someone here understands that Runco is an engineering company.

This was fun guys. I have never been involved in a three pager before,
have fun,
see you at the magic show,

JB

Jim Burns

10-16-06, 10:28 AM

I do not think anyone’s sexual preferences have any relevance here. This has degenerated a little too much for my taste. (and that can be quite a ways)

Curt Palme

10-16-06, 10:29 AM

I just love how engineers put themselves on an elevated platform and talk down to the 'little people'. Andrew insults us by telling us that all we can afford is an entry level Vidikron (oh, which gee, is now owned by Runco, a great insult there Andrew!) .

BTW Jim, your filmisdead link is dead. I guess film definitely has no future now.

Michael Grant

10-16-06, 10:32 AM

Well, if Gordon and Andrew's goal is to demonstrate that people affiliated with Runco are *******s, then they've succeeded. Because they certainly have done nothing to engender goodwill for the brand. That's not to say I'm heaping the blame just on their side for taking this thread down the crapper; but those of us on the customer side have a bit of a free pass to be bozos, because, well, we have the money.

And please, guys, let's not confuse the fact that Runco does not participate on these forums, with a mistaken idea that Runco is not interested in having forum members as customers. Sam doesn't sponsor the CES AVSForum party as a way of thanking us for driving customers away from them... So it is a mistake for a Runco stooge to act like a dork, figuring nobody reading is gonna buy anyway. These forums persist long after the feuds die.

As a slight defense of Andrew and Runco I will say, that if the Realta is the primary processor chip employed in the new Runco processors, then it is true that the firmware is going to make a lot of the difference. I've had enough discussions with people who have NDA-backed knowledge of the chip (though to their credit, without revealing forbidden details) that the chip requires a lot of handholding to exploit its potential.

So if Andrew's ability to code firmware is equal to his ability to act like an ass, then the processor ought to be pretty sweet.

Gordon McGlade

10-16-06, 10:37 AM

Hey Curt, who´s calling who names?

Did I say there was anything wrong with being gay?

I said I am not! So what!

Can you honestly read and understand our ancient language?

Read that facts presented big boy, no more no less.

And if you are offended by what I have said, poor you!

Linnfan

10-16-06, 11:00 AM

I cant beleive that Chris is still wiggling on about the Runco DHD! Runco make it! Whats in it? Who gives a f**k! It works great, probably the best scaller, user interface and reliable unit I have ever worked with.

Forget it boys, not worth trying to educate those in the forum who beleive everthing they read, and who run down great products 'cos they cant afford them!

Michael Grant

10-16-06, 11:01 AM

Hey Chris! You might want to call your credit card companies! Linnfan here is claiming to know how much money you have! You've been exposed as the food-stamp-usin', used-car-buyin', generic-beer-drinkin, trailer-park livin' scoundrel you are! (I mean, I know he isn't talking about me, so who could he be referring to? :))

Curt Palme

10-16-06, 11:12 AM

Michael, thanks for bringing it all down to one level..:)

For the record, as I just PMed with Jim, I am a meat and potatoes guy when it comes to A/V. I cannot possibly take the road that linnfan above has: One brand is the best, who cares what's in the box. My questioning nature makes me HAVE TO take the covers off almost anything that I buy to see what makes it tick. I want to know technical details so I have a better understanding what's going on. At least now I can put things back together again and they still usually work..:)

When I'm brushed off by some engineer guy telling me that I don't need to know what I'm asking, I get annoyed. I am not an engineer, so I have no chance of trying to copy what's in the box, but if I can get a better understanding how something works, chances are I'll do a better job installing or tweaking it.

I've dealt with both types of companies: Ones that listen to their installers and welcome suggestions and changes to their products. Others use a closed door approach:" 'you're a lowly installer, you can't possibly offer any insight to our products'. Guess who gets my ongoing business?

So let's all chill out here. Andrew, I'm sorry you took offense to my posts. I did learn something here, that Runco does make processors. I didn't think they did.

Cheers!

Gordon McGlade

10-16-06, 11:55 AM

Curt

Finally you have accepted that Runco makes the DHD.

I've dealt with both types of companies: Ones that listen to their installers and welcome suggestions and changes to their products. Others use a closed door approach:" 'you're a lowly installer, you can't possibly offer any insight to our products'. Guess who gets my ongoing business?

Let me tell you that Runco do listen to THEIR dealers and do accept input.

They open their doors to THEIR dealers at the their factory training sessions, which for your information last 4 days and where the dealers get the opportunity to work on every single Runco product available, straight from the factory floor. They also have an open session with Sam Runco where each person can ask and discuss things openly with Sam. That is after he has personally taken them out on the piss and played pool with them.

Do you think Sam Runco needs to that or he does it for fun? Did Yves Faroudja or Mr Silicon Optix or Mrs Gennum do that?

The answer is no. Runco treat their dealers with respect and involve them as much as practically possible. I have personally been there with my own dealers and we have to date some lasting friendships with some decent guys who work our there at the coal face. Every one of the attendees bar none had a great experience at Runco.

You tell me what other manufacturer does that?

I´ll tell you NONE.

That´s it guys I´m done! You take a water but you cannot make it drink it!

Gordon

Curt Palme

10-16-06, 12:33 PM

Gordon, there was no 'finally' I've accepted it, I accepted it after the first post. I follow(ed) Runco's offering of CRT projectors, not their processors. Runco never manufactured any projectors, they simply did mods (most very minor, some major) mods to existing projectors.

I have no doubt that Runco wines and dines their dealers. Many companies do. Runco however treated me as a complete moron when I called in for tech assistance.. In the past I identified myself as an independent tech working on one of their CRTs, and I was given ZERO info. When I called back 2 days later as a tech working for 'XYZ' Runco dealer who was working on a set, it was completely different, even when talking to the same tech support guy at Runco. It happened more than once. (this happened years ago, I haven't called Runco in at least 5 years)

It's also happened with Bose. I can also tell you that this approach doesn't happen at Mackie or Crown, even when I wasn't a dealer for a product line, or had never sold a specific piece. I was given all sorts of technical info freely.

Now, in defense of those that do try and protect their product tech info, there's no question that some people that are hack techs shouldn't be given any tech info, as they'll go in and completely screw up their products. I've had customers of mine do that with CRTs. The thing is, you can easily qualify whether a customer is tech savvy by asking a few simple questions. The wannabes quickly give you wrong answers, the guys in the know will already know what they're doing.

But far be it from me to tell others how to run their business.

Dizzman

10-16-06, 03:08 PM

The reality here is that Runco makes some great products that are not well paired with the DIY or VERY hard corps technical hobbyist.

Not that they are not good enough, just that the hard corps hobbyist wants far more info than many manufacturers want to give out. they also want far more control than many manufacturers want to provide on the products.

I ran into the same thing at K when i worked there, some folks wanted tons more options made available than would be a good idea for 99% of our customer base.

To the best of my knowledge, all your scaler tests that you want done do not exist. there is no standard for the testing of a scaler. there are some benchmarks that some folks compare to, but who should a scaler be handed over to in order to get the "correct" testing done? Ericbee???? (joke there)

And to the best of my limited knowledge, the Runco Scaler is an item that is designed to go with Runco projectors. It is not sold seperately. (it might be on paper, but not in practice)

And to those of you who chose to decide who knows what, be very careful. some of the folks here are far more technical than you can imagine.

In reality, knowing what chipset is inside a product is not like knowing what chip is inside a car's computer, it is like knowing what motor is inside a car.

Will that motor tell you everything about that cars performance... NO! Will it give you an approximate idea of how it might behave so that you are interested enough to take a test drive???? YES!

So don't jump down all the throats of those who are interested.

Mark Petersen

10-16-06, 03:08 PM

Hey Chris, is that Chris as in Christopher or Chris as in Christina?

P.S. Gordon is a boy´s name. I am a man and I am not gay! OK!

This reminds me of the Jim Rome vs Jim "Don't call me Chris" Everett interview:

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/jimeverett.html :D

Mark Petersen

10-16-06, 03:23 PM

I will say, that if the Realta is the primary processor chip employed in the new Runco processors, then it is true that the firmware is going to make a lot of the difference. I've had enough discussions with people who have NDA-backed knowledge of the chip (though to their credit, without revealing forbidden details) that the chip requires a lot of handholding to exploit its potential.

So if Andrew's ability to code firmware is equal to his ability to act like an ass, then the processor ought to be pretty sweet.

I think you're right on all counts. Realta based solutions have proven to differ a great deal based on the expertise of the company perfoming the integration. Based on my own experiences with the complexiities of using fixed point math it sounds as though Andrew knows his stuff and yes he also has quite an ability to act like an a$$.

Curt Palme

10-16-06, 04:50 PM

Dizz and Mark, cooler heads prevailed, I completely concur..:)

Mark Petersen

10-16-06, 08:21 PM

Dizz and Mark, cooler heads prevailed, I completely concur..:)

Now that the dust has settled you have to look back at this thread and say that it did provide a lot of good comic relief :) I just hope that Andrew or anyone else in the thread hasn't been permanently damaged by it.

Curt Palme

10-16-06, 08:52 PM

Oh fer sure, no harm meant in any of my posts, and no offense taken.. permanently by most of the posts..;)

HiHoStevo

11-12-06, 08:57 PM

Wow..............

This has been an interesting read.......... I suggested my son (xtremerik) post in this forum as we were hoping to learn more about the DHD for the Runco VX5000D.

I actually found this thread after posting a new one myself, so perhaps I need to go back and delete my thread...

The situation is that my son heard about an “estate” sale (actually a divorced wife selling off everything that was not nailed down). He went over to look around saw the Runco, knew nothing about them other than I have had a front projector for several years and bought it. (it is a model VX5000D)

Unfortunately earlier in the day someone else had come buy and paid cash for the entire audio rack… and you guessed it… in the audio rack was the Runco DHD. Now we have tried everything including an ad in the paper trying to locate this individual to no avail.

So we are searching for someone who might have a broken projector with an extra DHD we can purchase or someone who knows a “friendly” Runco dealer that might be able to help us find one.

Having read the "rumors" for years that everything from Runco was just OEM'd we were hoping that we could buy a scaler from the original source and get it to work... obviously that is not going to happen so we are left trying to find a used one, or at least an un-needed one.

If you still have any contacts that can help, we would be most grateful.

Thanks,

Steve & Erik

Jim Burns

11-13-06, 12:59 PM

Sounds like your son helped a wife do something possible illegal and just plain wrong because she was doing it for spite that is why the serial number was removed. Maybe the fact you are having trouble finding a controller is called karma......

imho,
JB

HiHoStevo

11-13-06, 01:11 PM

Jim... that is a bit harsh.

The wife was divorced and the judge awarded her the house and the contents thereof... hardly my place to call this "illegal." My son purchased the projector in good faith and did not even know it required a DHD until after he had called me to tell me about his purchase.

As to who actually removed the lower portion of the sticker and what their motivations were for doing so are pretty difficult to speculate upon... I asked the question of why an installing dealer would have done that, because I thought some other dealer here would tell me there was a "reason."

Frankly when I asked the question it had not occurred to me that some sort of nefarious activity might have taken place.

But to wish "bad Karma" on the one completely innocent in this transaction seems unfair.

Gordon had suggested that you might be able to help, but it sounds like your preception of this situation is hardly likely to be helpful.

Jim Burns

11-13-06, 01:28 PM

I did not wish bad karma…. That would after all be bad karma.  Your original post sounded like you where bragging about your good deal off of someone else’s problems. Nothing wrong with getting a good deal thinking it is cool because it is from a divorce is what sounded bad to me, imho.

To my knowledge Runco does not sell stand alone controllers. Without a serial number there is no way to tell if that unit shipped with a VHD or a DHD controller. One is not compatible with another.

HiHoStevo

11-13-06, 01:49 PM

No Jim I was not bragging... just explaining how my son had come by the projector... as it would seem strange to me to purchase a Runco projector without the controller.

My son attempted to call me from the site of the sale, but I was unavailable at the time so he went ahead with the purchase. It was not until the next day that we spoke and I asked him about the controller box. What ensued were days of back and forth with the girl he purchased it from trying to find the controller.

In my reading of the manual it seems that there is a menu item that will tell one what the serial number of the unit is.... question would be whether or not the menu is accessible without the DHD?

No bragging involved... just honest conveyance of information. I have always found it to be expedient when trying to obtain information to provide all of the background information available in order to obtain a more accurate response.

If you have been unfairly dealt with in court situation I express my honest sympathy.

Jim Burns

11-13-06, 01:59 PM

ybsane

11-13-06, 04:48 PM

HiHoStevo, I am sorry to see that there was no professional answer given on this forum, Curt is a good guy trying to help. Maybe contacting Runco and sending back your son's projector to them can give you the help you need.

By the way all good products in professional broadcasting come with a schematic or can be ordered for an additional fee.

Bob

Gordon McGlade

11-13-06, 05:05 PM

Ybsane

Professional help and advice has been provided to Steve.

Correct Steve?

HiHoStevo

11-13-06, 08:00 PM

I thought your signature quote says it all.

Does the projector have a DVI or VGA 15 pin input with the BNC RGBHV? The upper left has either a VGA or DVI, if it is DVI then is is MOST likley a DHD controller you need.

I have not physically seen the projector... just my son's description, but I will get my first chance to see it later tonight.

I will let you know what the rear configuration is after that.

In your above quote it seems like something is missing. If it has a DVI connector with BNC RGBHV then it is most likely "which controller?"

Thanks,

Steve

Jim Burns

11-13-06, 09:26 PM

DVI is most likley a DHD

Curt Palme

11-13-06, 10:41 PM

Hiho, if the unit is in Vegas and you get no inexpensive answers, I'll be at CES in January. Perhaps if the issue is unresolved then we can meet up.

Generally speaking, the Runco name is associated with big ticket items, and the brand is not sold at retailers, only through high end system installers, so getting one on the cheap will be hard as I've stated before. Keep checking eBay, who knows, the guy might end up listing his 'useless' controller there for cheap.

I still have the sneaking suspicion that most of the functions of the projector can be accessed with a generic scaler, giving you a useable set. If you want, shoot me some pix through my site below of the projector and input panel, I can most likely further advise then.

Gordon McGlade

11-13-06, 11:02 PM

Steve

Curt is so wrong. None of the functions can be obtained using a basic scaler. The DHD is a controller and you need this to switch the projector on and communicate to it.

Most of the set up and calibration id done in the DHD but those set up adjustment for the projector unit can only be done using the DHD.

It is a system!

Take your advice on this from a Runco dealer, only he can solve this for you as I have detailed to you by PM.

Gordon

Curt Palme

11-13-06, 11:11 PM

So you're saying that if the projector was turned off in one certain mode, you can't power up and feed it a 720p signal and continue using the projector in that mode without the controller?

Gordon, you're the Runco dealer, I'm not, so you could be right. I am saying however that getting a DHD controller will NOT be cheap, and I would think there's a workaround to the issue. My offer in January stands.

:)

Gordon McGlade

11-13-06, 11:26 PM

Curt

The projector is only one peice of a two piece system.

The projector piece can only respond to it´s associated DHD controller. It cannot even be switched on without it.

Like I said, it´s a system.

Gordon

Curt Palme

11-14-06, 12:19 AM

I'm wondering though if you couldn't just send the serial commands listed at the end of the manual right to the projector, bypassing the controller?

Gordon McGlade

11-14-06, 12:38 AM

Curt

It´s two comms that carries system info. The Runco DHD controller is matched to the display unit. It contains software specific to the display device ( which as you may now have realised has been developed by Runco )

It´s as simple as that. There is no other way.

That is the Runco difference.

Curt Palme

11-14-06, 12:50 AM

It´s as simple as that. There is no other way.

That is the Runco difference.

Perhaps to your dismay, it's exactly comments like that that turn me off of some installation companies, and what inspire me to find workarounds. I'm sure Edison was told many times that a phonograph or a lightbulb would never work practically as well.

There are ALWAYS other ways. Some of us choose to pursue them, sometimes with success, sometimes with failure. Heck, I'd even side with ValhallaPC and some of his way off the wall findings than to side with someone that simply states that things can't be done. While I find many flaws with the methods that Valhalla uses and find his posts ridiculous, at least he's trying. You Gordon simply are a follower of others, and that can be a dangerous thing. I'd rather take a shot at leading than simply to blindly follow others.

So go ahead, continue to sell the 'magic' of the companies that you represent, there are always gullible people with too much money that will buy your products. Some of us however will continue to question various forms of authority in the hopes to find a better way.

Back to the point, you're saying that Runco developed a new proprietary method of serial commands strictly between the DHD controller and the projector? Gimme a break! Even the geeks here would doubt that, or at least would be able to crack the code. Serial commands aren't that difficult to duplicate.

Gordon McGlade

11-14-06, 01:13 AM

Curt

I never said that Runco had developed a proprietary method serial commands, read my words, the DHD contains PROPRIETARY SOFTWARE specific to the display device.

The Comms link carries SYSTEM INFO.

Curt, Runco is obviously not for you ( and I am aware of past issues ) so just leave it, your comments are going nowhere to offerering constructive professional advice which Steve needs. So just leave it. You cannot DIY the VX-5000d.

I may be a follower but I am also businessman, quite successful I have to add, and the Runco brand is great business. No other company in the home cinema market offers a product range to suit a huge range of customer requirement ( and dealers business´requirement.

For your information, I am not a dealer, I am a country distributor and therefore lead my dealers into deals that are good for their businesses and for their customers.

We are not all hobbyists!

Curt Palme

11-14-06, 01:32 AM

Well that explains a lot Gordon! Of course you're going to say that Runco fits almost all niches, Bose takes the same approach. At least you say a huge niche. I respectfully disagree. Runco caters to only the high end clientele. That's a very small portion of people seeking home theater products, but Runco chooses to deal only with ones with excessive amounts of money. That's smart business.

Heck, apparently the dealers are called 'consultants', and the product cannot be bought at a retail level. That protects the dealers and keeps the pricing high. A good strategy... for people that have a lot of money.

What you don't seem to understand is the other 99% of people looking for a home theater. I cater to exactly the opposite type of client that you do. I cater to the client that enjoys the DIY aspect of building a home theater, esp. those on a budget. I can supply rebuilt CRT projectors at a tiny fraction of the original price, which would have been completely out of the price range of my customer if they would have bought new.

With Hiho, I assumed that he doesn't have the kind of cash to spend on a new DHD controller. No offense to Hiho, but I'm guessing that the vast majority of customers that find Runco product at an estate sale weren't exactly going to that estate sale after leaving a Runco dealer and getting a demo and a retail price for a system and installation...

No, I'm guessing the situation was more or less that he stumbled across what he figured was a good deal on a high end projector at said estate sale for a fraction of the retail price, so he grabbed it. Your attitude is to douse him with the standard high end smoke and mirrors, this is proprietary product, you need to deal with an authorized Runco dealer, blah blah. Don't listen to DIYers like Curt, they're full of it.

Now, I never claimed that I positively, 100% COULD solve his problem, I said it might be worth a try. For far less than what a DHD controller would cost.

He could also of course take that unit to a Runco dealer and get a quote on what a DHD controller would be.

I still think that I could fire up a standalone 5000d despite what you say. Want to send me an old unit?

:)

Oh and BTW, I've rebuilt and sold LOTS of Runco CRT projectors, including units that Runco themselves wrote off long ago as being unrepairable. THey were repairable. Every time.

Gordon McGlade

11-14-06, 02:05 AM

Curt

What is it with you?

Get off your soapbox!

For your information Steve has taken professional advice and has been pleased so far with it.

You may be able to conjour up a CRT projector from the scrapheap but that is not what Runco customers want.

Runco dealers are not called consultants and they do not restrict the reselling of their products from retail outlets. YOU ARE WRONG ONCE AGAIN.

How often have you been proved wrong on this thread?

Regarding Runco writing off projectors as unrepairable. More like not financially worth repairing for them. OK? It´s their perogative. If you can´t swallow that then that is your problem.

Regarding " fire up a stand alone 5000d ".

Is that what you for your customers? Fire up an old CRT? Lucky them , no?

What about set up, adjustment calibration?

You really make laugh. That is exactly what we professionals are trying to avoid, the DIYers who screw up our business thinking they know it all when sometimes, yes they may posess knowledge and experience, but more often than they work like back street garages.

I can guarrantee you that you could never switch on, set up, adjust and calibrate a Runco VX-5000d without it´s DHD controller.

That is a bet.

Curt Palme

11-14-06, 02:18 AM

So let me get this straight. You can sell a new Runco CRT projector for $25K or more, but once it's used for a period of time, it's considered junk? Even with new tubes, a color balance and circuit refinements that even Runco didn't implement, it's still a used piece of junk?

Now who's making who laugh?

Send over that 5000d any time. I'll post pix how it runs as a standalone.

As for the Runcos that were unrepairable, two had chips that were installed backwards at Runco. That was ineptness right at home base. In my opinion.

What's funny here is that I recognize the high end niche market that Runco caters to. It's sad that you don't recognize that there's lots of other customers that won't deal with Runco.

Oh right, the rest of those customers are undesirable hacks or 'hobbyists' as you put it to you elitists.

Oh and BTW, list me one dealer that would allow an end user to buy a Runco projector and scaler/controller off the shelf for a DIY install? I thought that's exactly what Runco doesn't want to happen, us hacks will get a hold of it? Boy, wouldn't THAT be a tragedy?

HiHoStevo

11-14-06, 02:55 AM

Ybsane

Professional help and advice has been provided to Steve.

Correct Steve?

Yes, Mr. McGlade has been incredibly helpful and informative.

Thank you

Gordon McGlade

11-14-06, 04:43 AM

Unfortunately Curt, your posts say it all about you, you invent words and post them here, there is no need to say anymore.

Steve has found his professional help is happy, he is now going in the right directoin to solve his problem. He will end up with a first class product and solution.

This help, provided by trained professionals on Runco products.

Dennis Erskine

11-14-06, 08:13 AM

Curt:
If one where to find a working 5000 and controler (VHD/DHD) of the same vintage, one could capture the two-way comms commands between the two devices for lens shift, power, diagnostics, focus, zoom, etc. However, the 5000 is a two piece projector and at the end of the day, one would have to duplicate all the light engine electronics that you'd find inside most projectors. When all is said and done, I'm suggesting finding a DHD or VHD is going to be far less expensive and frustrating. Most of the electronics you'd expect to find in a standalone projector are not inside the 5000 case. The RS232 commands you see in the manual are for communications to the controller, not the projector.

I believe the course of less resistance, time, expense and frustration will be to determine the vintage of the 5000 and then acquire the appropriate controller.

Steve...I had the Aerostar at VGT a few weeks ago. Had we known at the time, we could have resolved the vintage issue and swapped a few lies. Fly safe.

Curt Palme

11-14-06, 08:50 AM

Thanks Dennis, that makes a whole lot more sense than anything that Gordon posted. Again, I never said I could make the 5000 work fully without the DHD. I still think it could be powered up and an image could be displayed without the DHD. I'd still be up to the challenge to prove it to myself if Gordon wanted to send me an old unit.

Gordon McGlade

11-14-06, 10:30 AM

Denis

Do not forget the "Display Device " calibration which is done from the DHD to calibrate electronics in the projector. This cannot be done without the DHD.

Curt

If you are so sure you can do what you claimed, that is " fire up a 5000d ", you go out and find an old one and try it for yourself. You seem to be an expert on old projectors, no?

I repeat, you cannot!

Steve is happy with the advice given to him. That is what´s important.

Curt Palme

11-14-06, 10:40 AM

Gordon, absolutely I will.

After our discussion last night, a new slogan hit me:

'If CRTs are considered technological offal, then I guess I'm King Sh!t'

:)

ybsane

11-14-06, 12:30 PM

"Send over that 5000d any time. I'll post pix how it runs as a standalone."

A friend of mine at the Electronic Design Group said you can power up without the controller and do vert. and horz. lens shift. plus get a picture out via DVI. no problem? and they have done this in past for troubleshooting.

HiHoStevo

11-14-06, 02:11 PM

Gentleman this has been a very "lively" and informative discussion.

I wish to thank all those who have contributed and offered suggestions and advice.

I will pursue all channels available to try and solve this dilemma.

thanks again for your assistance,

Dennis Erskine

11-14-06, 03:09 PM

yb sane...I'll have to check that out. Unfortunately, all I have at the moment to rip open and test is a 6000.

Gordon McGlade

11-14-06, 03:22 PM

Dennis

Pleased to see you have moved on and upwards to the VX-6000d and do not have any old VX-5000d´s in your junk yard.

Pity Curt can´t see the light and do the same, move on that is!

Gordon McGlade

11-14-06, 03:28 PM

cmjohnson

11-14-06, 04:05 PM

Curt is an authentic expert on more projectors than most people posting in this topic have ever SEEN or even HEARD OF. He's been in the business a LONG time and has a true technician's view of what's good and what's bad, what's truth and what's BS, and he can
tell you the difference between a dealer that's out to make his customers happy vs. a dealer
whose only reason for being in business is to clean out the customer's wallet.

I'd trust Curt's opinion on ANY projector brand he's worked on. He truly knows the product, and the business.

I have no opinion on the specific issue that has been in contention, but it is very clear to
me that some of you truly don't know anything about Curt Palme and his knowledge, but
he knows more than some of you do, beyond a doubt.

Jim Burns

11-14-06, 05:08 PM

Just a reminder. When you read Godrons posts please read it with a William Wallace accent. If you don't you may end up taking his posts too seriously.

Dizzman

11-14-06, 05:31 PM

ybsane

11-14-06, 06:01 PM

ybsane

If you have the balls to do it, post it now. However, Steve needs more than a Curt´s " fire up ". but show me you´ve got them and not just a friend´s and I´ll suck the mother f**kers.

Gordon

Gordon, my friend works for a major A/V company in NJ that has won many awards for home theaters, why we to take your opinion on something and classify it as the word of god is beyond me. Also note your filthy mouth just confirms that you are a smart ass sale's person and in no way shape or form that of a professional!

You are trying to form an opinion on Curt and you don't know do judge him, so as we do in South " Bless your heart but you are a dumbass"

penticton102

11-14-06, 06:35 PM

Curt Palme

11-14-06, 06:45 PM

Gordon, I respectfully decline your oral offers thanks, I'll stick to aural offers from my audio suppliers, thanks!

You have however thrown down the gauntlet about getting a picture out of a 5000 without the DHD controller, and you've piqued my curiosity. While I don't deal with any digital sets, I will keep my eye out for a cheap one, and I will post if I get one showing a useable picture without the DHD.

That is of course if I don't get fire out of it instead. (this not being a reflection of a Runco product of course, but is my opinon of all digital projectors) So yes, I've seen a number of digitals 'fire up'.

:)

Jim Burns

11-14-06, 06:54 PM

You need to say what Gordon wrote with the thickest Scottish accent you can muster. I don’t know if it makes more sense that way but it sounds much better.

Curt Palme

11-14-06, 07:01 PM

Well it certainly didn't work with a Spanish accent..;)

Jim Burns

11-14-06, 07:06 PM

Too bad he isn’t eastern European, it would have come out “farging cork suckers” Hmmm now that I think about it that is not to far off from his accent.

CRTveteran

11-14-06, 07:13 PM

And Gordon calls himself a professional? What's he trying to sell anyhow.. he certainly doesn't make a "hoity-toity" company such as Runco sound any better... The company never really made their own CRT's when they offered them, so there's no way they are going to appreciate ANYTHING or ANYBODY into CRT. :(

ybsane

11-14-06, 07:15 PM

Curt, one style of projector I think you would agree on that needs a controller is the Sim2, which has optical feeds from the controller to the projector.

In this situation if your controller dies your are completely out of luck until a replacement comes into play.

Curt Palme

11-14-06, 07:17 PM

That makes sense. Mind you I've never seen a Sim2. Heck, it's only light, right? Can't I turn a flashlight on and off fast enough to similate some serial optical pulses? Sounds completelly do-able to me.

(Gordon, I'm KIDDING!!!!!)

ybsane

11-14-06, 07:21 PM

red,green, and blue strobe lights could do it..

Jim Burns

11-14-06, 07:30 PM

CRTvet, Runco is filled with crt fans. I still have one.

lcaillo

11-14-06, 08:33 PM

Hey Curt, the first Runco i ever saw was in the roof of the COmmodore ballroom. I thought it said RONCO... i laughed my ass off about it.

Then i met Sam and told him... he thought it was pretty funny as well.

Anyone who remembers the earliest products from Runco likely had the same reaction. I recall the very first one that they came out with was a joke and we sent the sample back. It was a while before they came out with much that didn't get the RONCO jokes.

CRTveteran

11-14-06, 08:53 PM

Ok, so i stand corrected about Runco and CRT. Although all the Runco CRT units I have seen are rebadged units form other companies, customized by Runco. I won't get into the personal bashing that others on here have. My point I guess is that most of the people associated with Runco in this thread have done no real good at representing the comapany in a mature matter.. :(

LJG

11-14-06, 09:21 PM

So what brand controller did Runco rebadge as the Runco 5000 controler?

:eek: Just kidding couldn't resist

Jim Burns

11-14-06, 10:04 PM

That was funny

Sonynut

11-14-06, 10:06 PM

Ok correct me if I'm wrong.. What CRT projector did Runco actually build ALL themselves? They all look like Barcos, Nec's, etc to me.

c-not-k

11-14-06, 10:19 PM

Wow! I wasn't planning to read this whole thing, but I couldn't put the "book" down.

Runco caters to only the high end clientele. That's a very small portion of people seeking home theater products, but Runco chooses to deal only with ones with excessive amounts of money. That's smart business.

FWIW, I stopped by a local dealer who sells Runco, as well as other brands. I ended up buying a CL-700, taking it home and installing it myself.

http://www.c-not-k.com/OddsEnds/MtHebron/HomeImprovement/HT/Full/IMG_9909.JPG

Rest assured, I am not made of money. (I also flipped the badge over when the room was finished!) I called Runco with a question, and they were quite helpful. (I could have called the dealer, but had heard about Runco's customer service, and just wanted to see for myself.)

I am happy with my projector, and happy with the dealer. They never tried to pressure me into buying more than I could afford, or insinuating that I couldn't have a successful install without them. They offered to help, of course.

I plan on upgrading sometime in the future, so this thread was of interest to me. I consider myself a DIY'er, and wanted more info about Runco's processors, as I plan on buying a stand-alone unit well before replacing my CL-700. I have used this board to research DVDO, PM, Lumagen, and others.

Personally, I found Andrew's replies helpful. I didn't get the impression he was avoiding the question, as he isn't a Runco employee. I also consider xtrmerik's question valid. As was also asked, I'd like to see how Runco's scalers compare to other brands, but considering how DHD's are sold, I'm not sure how one could make an objective test.

Hopefully nobody was permanently tweaked by this thread.

HiHoStevo

11-14-06, 10:48 PM

Jim did you get the digital pictures I sent you?

Any idea which lens is on this beauty?

thanks

Jim Burns

11-14-06, 10:50 PM

Nope, send them to my runco account. jimb@runco.com

HiHoStevo

11-14-06, 10:54 PM

In case you did not receive them....

Here are the pictures in question........

If anyone can identify the lens system in use I would appreciate it!

Thanks

Steve

HiHoStevo

11-14-06, 10:56 PM

and the last two.............

Jim Burns

11-14-06, 11:10 PM

Well, it is a 1.57 to 1.95 x the width of the screen zoom lens. What else do you need to know about it?

Jim Burns

11-14-06, 11:10 PM

Did you call the rep whos number I gave you?

ChrisWiggles

11-14-06, 11:30 PM

Ok correct me if I'm wrong.. What CRT projector did Runco actually build ALL themselves? They all look like Barcos, Nec's, etc to me.

They never did to my knowledge.

HiHoStevo

11-14-06, 11:32 PM

Jim I did not get him, but I left a message.

The issue is from my reading of the owners manual for the 5000D it does not match any of the lenses shown.......?

Jim Burns

11-14-06, 11:55 PM

Hmmm. What manual are you reading DHD or VHD. I do not recall the lenses ever changing.

Dennis Erskine

11-15-06, 12:02 AM

Gordon

The 6000 is a customer's unit. We have a 22D coming.

Oil Beef Hooked. (Old Scottish proverb).

HiHoStevo

11-15-06, 02:01 AM

Hmmm. What manual are you reading DHD or VHD. I do not recall the lenses ever changing.

Jim the manual (page 24) shows the following lenses were available on the 5000D. I was confused because the numbers printed on the sticker of the lens do not match any of these lenses.......

.....................................

PRELIMINARY
Table 3-4. VX-5000d Lens Options and Throw Ratios
Lens Option (Note 2)
Throw Ratio
(Throw Dist. ÷ Screen Width)
Throw Distance Range(in inches, with 100-inch Wide Screen)
Minimum
Maximum
Telesto A
0.80 (Fixed)
For rear-screen installations only. Contact Runco Technical Support for more information.
Telesto B
1.64 - 1.97
164
197
Telesto C
2.02 - 2.70
202
270
Telesto C with CineWide
1.53 - 2.04
153
204
Telesto D
2.84 - 4.80
284
480
Telesto D with CineWide
2.15 - 3.63
215
363
Telesto E
4.92 - 7.90
492
790
Telesto E with CineWide
3.73 - 5.98
373
598
Notes:
1. Throw distance does not affect image quality, provided these ranges are taken into account.
2. Only the Telesto C, D and E lenses can be used with the optional CineWide (secondary anamorphic) lens. Doing so affects the throw distances as shown here.

......................................

I was hoping one of you might be able to visually identify which one it is.....

Gordon McGlade

11-15-06, 08:06 AM

ybsane

You said I am a smart ass salesman. How did get know me that well so quickly.

Correction, I am wealthy smart ass salesman

Gordon McGlade

11-15-06, 08:11 AM

ybsane said

"Send over that 5000d any time. I'll post pix how it runs as a standalone."

He never said he could only just fire it up or get a picture our of it.

So I stand by my challenge, if you got balls.

Hell, perhaps ybsnae is a girlie, man all the better for me if he manages to to what he says ha can. Guess what I get to suck?

Curt Palme

11-15-06, 09:13 AM

Gordon McGlade

11-15-06, 09:36 AM

Curt

Guess what?

I just e-mailed your post to Sam.

Anyway, can you not lighten up? I may be arrogant ( in your humble opinion ) but it comes from being factual and only posting facts not rumors nor heresay.

You should try that perhaps.

Jim Burns

11-15-06, 09:43 AM

Telesto B
1.64 - 1.97 is the lens you have.

Contrary to the thoughts of some, the optical system of that projector was designed in house and we slightly changed the throws to ensure our current spec was always correct regardless of offset/zoom combination. Depending on you projector placement you may be able to get a little more offset and a slightly shorter throw than specified.

Scott Lyons

11-15-06, 02:31 PM

Curt

Guess what?

I just e-mailed your post to Sam.

.

Looks like Curt's going to get another Ronco lawyer after his ass.

But cheer up Curt.You've been through the Ronco Lawyer diatribe before,you should be a pro in handling them by now.

HiHoStevo

11-15-06, 05:58 PM

Thanks Jim....... the closest seemed to be the Telesto C with Cinewide..... but that would have been WAY too good to be true!!!:-) (if you are going to dream you may as well dream big)

I am currently on a trip (I am a pilot for Southwest Airlines) so I will pursue this with vigor when I return.

Thanks again to all those who have offered assistance, information, and support.

HiHoStevo

11-15-06, 06:02 PM

As long as I have the attention of such an auspicious crowd......

Is anyone familiar with a piece of furniture that we could use to house this projector...?

I am thinking of something like an "end-table" that could be placed in the center of the seating arch to house the projector...?

The room in my son's house has ceilings that are just under 9' and we were thinking this might be a more convenient method of placing the projector... at least until he has children!!

Jim Burns

11-15-06, 06:05 PM

Since you get around so much we just need to find a used DHD in a city SWA flies too! That should make things easier.

HiHoStevo

11-15-06, 07:17 PM

works for Me!!

Scott Wallace

11-26-06, 01:53 AM

Personally I'm just having fun with this thread now, and I hope that Steve gets the info he needs.

Gordon, you however have shown your true colors as to the type of person you are. Frankly I hope Sam himself reads this thread, and finds himself a new European rep. I certainly can't see you doing Runco's reputation a whole lot of good on the other side of the pond with your arrogance and rudeness.

Can I make a suggestion? Those who doubt Runco should go to their nearest Runco dealer (maybe call ahead of time and go on a slow day. people there do have to make a living), take your favorite test DVD's, and see how a Runco with a DHD controller measures up. I believe you'll find it measures up quite well, and the image quality possible is outstanding, though more than perhaps any other line of projectors I've seen, are TRANSFORMED with a thorough calibration, and that's because Runco offers so many tools to the technician to really dial the picture in. In fact, with Runco's line-up changing to 1080p models, ask your dealer if one of the new 1080p projectors going up in their showroom is going to be ISF calibrated and ask if you can sit in with the tech as he does it.

I fail to see how berating Gordon or Jim B. does any good as they have tried to explain that professionally they are legally not allowed to disclose the information you are pressing them for, and adding insults to their character to boot. THIS is why these forums get a bad wrap, and everyone needs to just take a deep breath.....

We're all in this because we're into it. Leave the machismo to in-person interactions where it really means something, and try to see the other person's point of view before engaging in character assasination.

Cheers...............Scott W.

Dizzman

11-26-06, 02:58 AM

I fail to see the relevance of ISF anymore. It meant something 5 years ago. now it is just another acronym.

The reality is that experience and the possesion of calibration tools are what matters.

Curt likely has forgotten more about projectors and imaging than many of the ISF guys will ever know.

Curt Palme

11-26-06, 09:39 AM

Can I make a suggestion? Those who doubt Runco should go to their nearest Runco dealer (maybe call ahead of time and go on a slow day. people there do have to make a living), take your favorite test DVD's, and see how a Runco with a DHD controller measures up. I believe you'll find it measures up quite well, and the image quality possible is outstanding, though more than perhaps any other line of projectors I've seen, are TRANSFORMED with a thorough calibration, and that's because Runco offers so many tools to the technician to really dial the picture in. In fact, with Runco's line-up changing to 1080p models, ask your dealer if one of the new 1080p projectors going up in their showroom is going to be ISF calibrated and ask if you can sit in with the tech as he does it.

I do and I have. I've done quite a bit of out of warranty repair work for a number of Runco dealers and see the latest in what Runco has to offer at CES for the last 3 years, make it 4 in January as well as at the dealers.

As I've said above and many times in other threads, Runco generally does not make/rebadge a bad product usually. Runco however does charge a pretty hefty surcharge associated with what comes with high end product and the handholding that goes with it. Runco has done an excellent marketing job, and deals only with people with money, lots of it. They don't deal with the D-I-Y'er generally.

Back in 2002 when avs used to have the 'special guests' section, Sam was invited to participate for a week. I asked him a very direct question, worded in a very politically correct manner: How does Runco get a spec of 750 lumens out of a Zenith PRO 851 chassis when the Zenith spec is 600 lumens? The two sets are IDENTICAL (I've repaired dozens of the Runcos, hundreds of the Zenith) save for a shield around the HV section?

I was expecting an answer relating to how the light output was measured. Instead, I got a complete runaround, Sam started talking about the DTV 852 and how it was drastically different from the Zenith PRO 900. The question was completely avoided, and I gave up.

I didn't ask about the PRO 900, I asked about the PRO 851.

I'll state it again: I'm a tech guy VERY familiar with CRT projectors, processors and most things audio. I dissect things to see how they work. I ask pointed questions, sometimes ones that the sales reps of companies can't answer. If I get an 'I don't know, let me check with the techs at the factory and I'll get back to you' as an answer, that's good. If the sales guy wants to save face and throws me something full of BS instead of admitting that he doesn't know, I won't deal with him again. That's just my nature.

I just don't like companies that spin their products and do a major song and dance when the product line is similar or the same as someone else's, ESPECIALLY if the product is simply a rebadge of another manufacturer. Yes, Runco added some niceties like a screen trigger output to some of their CRT projectors and rewrote some software, I didn't see a significant improvement over the original manufacturer's product. In my opinion.

That's why I compared Runco to Bose above. I was a Bose dealer for years. Some of their products worked well given certain applications. Some didn't. Bose wanted the dealer to believe that there was a Bose speaker for every application, and some of the stuff worked on 'magic'. That's when I told the rep that there were certain products that I'd never sell. If I, the dealer can't believe in theproduct, I can't in good conscience install it.

Now, many here pooh-pooh the fact that I'm a D-I-Yer for a lot of things, that a true HT system can only be designed and installed and implemented by a high end dealer and his installation department. I would therefore have to conclude that Ob's system is also complete crap as well as many others here that assembled their own system. While I don't see eye to eye with some of Ob's opinions, I would consider that his system is most likely somewhat of a reference audio system based on what I've read here. ( I haven't heard it, but have seen pictures). I believe that he assembled his own system and continues to improve/tweak it by doing research and setting it up HIMSELF.

My opinion however is that someone with money can go to a high end dealer and spend $100K on a HT system, and get something decent looking and sounding. I, however can troll ebay, but $2K worth of used product, spend some time working it over and rebuilding it, and get the SAME results. I'll sell it and make a profit, and I would also say that the much lower price that I sell for makes my system more attractive to a lot more people that don't have $100K to throw around. My customers will get the same customer support as they would from a new product, and I'd state that my used system will last as long and depreciate less than a new high end product.

There's room for both camps (and several other approaches that fall inbetween a high end dealer and a complete D-I-Y approach). Some people here seem to think there's only one way to do something.

Oh and BTW, since the whole standalone debate of the 5000 projector died off, I've had no less than two Runco dealers email me saying that indeed the 5000 can work without the controller/processor. THey do/did it all the time while doing basic setup and test running of the units at the shop before the installation.

'Nuff said.

Oh and Dizz, I was disagree. There is great value in a getting an ISF calibration done by a competent tech. I watched an ISF calibration being done to a local high end CRT projector in the spring by an ISF guy that's done 100s of projectors. It was money well spent to get that last 5% of performance out of his projector.

I have however seen many CRT projectors get royally screwed up because the newbie ISF installer had never seen or touched a CRT, but claimed that he could do a full setup.

Whether someone wants to spend the $300-1200 charged by these calibrators is up to the individual of course. You can get maybe 85% the way to a great picture as a newbie following an instruction book and gleaning information from forums like this. I'd say techs like myself can squeeze another 10% of peformance with the experience we've had installing and tweaking 100s of projectors. The last 5% is gained by that ISF color calibration.

BobNelson

11-26-06, 10:13 AM

Dizzman

11-27-06, 02:37 AM

i did not knock calibration Curt... i just said that the letters ISF do not hold the meaning they once did.

CINERAMAX

11-27-06, 12:58 PM

During that same "special guest" session, I wanted to know why the throw ratio on my 852 was set for 1.3 when the service manual said it was 1.19. This would make a great difference on an 7" set. Unfortunately, I also mentioned that the service manual was a Zenith with a Runco cover. Sam went ballistic. He never answered the question.

I think Sam has evolved into a more gentler and kinder persona over the years. I almost sense a philantropher in him now. His success and the final success of his products as true value added propositions are at play here. All of his past marketing "pecadillos" should be overlooked, I see in him a great potential to effect positive market changes (like anamorphic vertical stretch on BR & HD DVD for example) due to his position of near absolute influence in certain vertical markets.

MeridianMan

12-25-06, 09:52 AM

First let me wish you guys a Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, happy other holidays celebrated and of course a happy and healthy new year. :)

I used to post under a different name- Aerialman- but I've since evolved into Meridian stuff. Anyway, just wanted to say one thing on Runco:

Boy was I wrong.

I built a home theater several years ago and I was dead set against using a Runco projector. I started out has a hobbiest and tweaker and DYIer and the general feeling about Runco in this group was a negative feeling- details posted above. But my application required a throw distance of almost 30' and the Runco 5000 fit the bill. I went and looked at one and I hated to admit it to myself- but it looked great.

Several years later, I have nothing but the utmost respect for Runco. I've been around ISF calibrators and seen how displays are supposed to look. I was stunned to see that this projector looked so good out of the box. Until that point I was used to seeing displays come out of the box wayyy too blue and too contrasty. This looked darn near perfect and frankly when we went to calibrate it we discovered that Runco had done a wonderful job at their shop/ factory. This earned them big respect from me. Even more so has been the several years of enjoyment I have gotten since. The image produced from this projector has been very pleasing and the only thing I did to really tweak it was to use a different video processor (faroudja nrs->DVI->Runco DHD->DVI>PJ). Their processor back then was -IMHO- acceptable but not fantastic. Today it seems to me they have left no stone unturned.

I recently decided I wanted to investigate the state of the art in the HT world as I was hoping someone had come out with a kind of soup to nuts 2.35:1 setup. This was right after they announced the 22/44/55 projectors. I got on the phone with my dealer and we got on the phone with some people over at Runco and asked our questions and we put the order in for the VX-22d. We've ordered a Stewart 2.40:1 (I think its 137x57") cinewide screen.

I'm very comfortable pulling the trigger on such a setup because of my experience with Runco over about 4 years now. When I had a bulb go bad, they came out and changed it- even when I knew they would question the NRS processor- and they did, but it was clear the problem was just a bad bulb and they did change it after about a minute of clarification by me there was never an antagonistic moment. When I was on the phone with my dealer and their tech support prior to their service visit they were wonderful.

The 5000 has really exceed my expectations- when I ordered the 5000 I thought it might last a year in my home and then I would move on to something else. How could a single chip 720P projector possibly last that long with someone who always wants to be on the "cutting edge"? Well, it just won me over with such a pleasing and natural image. I think this projector was a great companion for DVD watching. My seating position is about 14-16' away from the screen- the seat reclines so it depends on where my eyes are. Anyway after a few weeks with the projector, I noticed that rainbows were barely an issue for me- I would see one on average once every other movie- and the image was pleasing but I felt the video processing was the weak link. So I changed that as noted above.

The only thing that has me moving on is the 16x9 experience has always had my subconscious telling me: this is really just a very large projection TV. The sense of cinema is missing and when I look at my front wall where the screen is, I am always wondering- when will someone come up with something for the guy like me, whose time is now very limited and therefore is not looking for a DYI solution but a complete "soup to nuts" solution. Well, they have!

So here are my questions which led me to this thread. Does anyone know if the new DHD processor will accept 1080P over HDMI? Do you need HDMI v 1.3 for this? If so does the new DHD have that? If not, does the DHD properly deinterlace 1080i (eg pick up the film cadence and apply the proper 3:2 pull down)? Can the DHD accept a 48khz refresh rate? Can it generate it? Would it just pass it along? Can the 22 projector accept this signal? My sources are HD DVD (tosh XA-1) and KScape player and maybe a BRD player when I see the dust settle from CES. Right now I plan to set it up as follows:

KScape Player-> 480i over HDMI->DHD for deinterlacing, scaling and adjustment for 2.35 (if needed)->PJ

HDDVD-> 1080i over HDMI->DHD for deinterlacing, scaling and adjustment for 2.35 (if needed)->PJ

BRD-> 1080i over HDMI->DHD for deinterlacing, scaling and adjustment for 2.35 (if needed)->PJ

HD Sat-> 1080i over component or perhaps over DVD->HDMI if I get a HDMI switch- which would be needed for the above 3 HDMI sources if I run them all HDMI.

HD Cable-> 1080i over component... etc

Btw- my dealer is terrific and can address these issues, but I tend to sweat the small stuff- sound familiar? ;)

If I upgraded the HD DVD to one that puts out 1080P and got a BRD that did 1080P I might try that but I think if the DHD can properly deinterlace 1080i then this should not be an issue.

I've read the manual to the 44/55- as the one for the 22 is not on line yet. Those projectors feature darn impressive abilities and I hope the 22 has similar features- I think it does. One thing I note is you can not use their "virtual cinema wide" on the HDMI inputs- this stretches a 1.78:1 movie to the 2.35:1 AR- kind of like a "smart stretch" or "justify" with your current 16:9 display. I am mildly disappointed by this. Should I be considering skipping the HDMI link and just go with the HD component instead? I understand what I am gaining by staying all digital, this is my preference, but if the analog input is of high quality my experience is sometimes the difference, while noticable in test patters, may not be that great when judging how "pleasing" a display is- and this is my biggest criteria- how pleasing is it for me.

So sorry for some of the rambling and I wish you all happy holidays. As to the criticism of Runco, I want to leave you with this final thought: anyone can be a critic. Yet, not everyone can create.

Example- what kind of website uses black and purple and other garrish colors? ;) See how easy it is- yet, when was the last time I setup the worlds most well known site for AV enthusiasts? Exactly. I think people are valid in seeing shortcomings, there are shortcomings in all man made things, but if you want to see the shortcomings, then acknowledge the good stuff. With Runco, yes you will pay for it, but you also get top level performance and treated very well- this makes the price well worth it to me and apparently I am not alone since they have managed to stay in business- in a very difficult industry.

Happy and healthy wishes for the holidays and new year!

best regards,
Jerry

CINERAMAX

12-25-06, 10:42 AM

Another Runco convert, that makes two of us. Welcome back Jerry. Thanks for pointing the hdmi issue. From what I saw that scaler will take anything thrown at it with aplomb. That being said, on their website there is reference to an up and coming scaler SDC. nO ONE HAS BEEN ABLE TO TELL ME EXACTLY IF IT IS AN UPGRADE TO THE dhd OR NOT.

Happy Merry to everyone.

HiHoStevo

12-25-06, 12:42 PM

Curt:

Steve...I had the Aerostar at VGT a few weeks ago. Had we known at the time, we could have resolved the vintage issue and swapped a few lies. Fly safe.

Lucky you...... the Aerostar is a great a/c!!

Drop me a line next time you are headed this direction and perhaps we can set up a lunch.

Steve

Steve Bruzonsky

12-25-06, 02:24 PM