All,


I've been trying to keep pace with the forum from here in Iraq but our connection is very slow (military networks). Anyway, I've been reading in the HD DVD forum about the upcoming Xbox 360 HD DVD drive add on and how it will output 1080p/60 via the VGA port. I'm curious if anybody has any experience connecting a 360 to their CRT and what PQ they are getting from SD DVDs. I'm in the market for a new DVD player and I also need a game box for the family. I have a Ampro 4600 on the ceiling and NEC XG-110 on the floor waiting for my return. Would the 360 with HD DVD add on be a good way to get into HD for CRT owners?


Thanks All

Andre

The latest update for the XBOX360 adds scaled playback to the DVDs so it now scales via VGA to whatever resolution you are running the 360. (e.g. 720P, 800x600 whatever you choose) and it does a pretty decent job of it too.
If you have a PC you can install MCE on it and a little app and you can stream HD content from your PC to the 360 and the quality is excellent.
There hasn't been a lot of detail about the HD-DVD player yet other than the price and that it is going to support 1080P over VGA.
But if you like gaming, it is an excellent piece of kit and the quality via the VGA cable is really excellent.
Just don't play Dead Rising for mre than 10hrs at a time, it messes up yer mind :D

Oh yeah I am running it to an NEC 9PG+ and it looks great.

Sounds like it may be something I want to pick up.

Refurbished Xbox 360's are sitting on the shelf in my local Gamestop and my guess is they will get cheaper.

Meanwhile I can record HD on my pc so streaming it to the xbox also sounds good.

Only catch is,.. I don't play video games :(

=Brian

I'm running my 360 to my ECP-3100 via the VGA port and it looks great. Playing the FEAR demo on a 7 foot wide screen is quite the thing.

When did the update for the scaled playback come out?

One thing I've been looking for is a DVD Player with USB 2.0 support. I have a ton of MP3 music and JPEGs that I've collected on USB drive. All the DVD Players with USB support are Sigma based and will display MP3 with a basic song title listing only. From what I understand about the 360, it will allow me to display the cover art and lyric from the Tag portion of the MP3 and this is something I truly desire. Can someone comment on whether or not you get cover art when playing MP3 via 360?

Klover, there are a couple of posts in the HDA1 section concerning the 360 HD DVD add on and the upgraded software schedule for release towards the end of the year. You may better understand all the 360 details they are discussing. One of the post has a diagram of the components inside the 360, it a very powerful box.

Anyone have any recommendations on the best place to purchase a Premium package 360 for a good price. I would like to have one waiting for me at home once I return to the States.

Thanks All

Andre

Yes you do get cover art on playback.

Brian, you may not play video games now, but the xbox arcade feature may suck you in...

Hey Fraza,

check up on slickdeals.net they have xbox 360 deals how up all the time. the most recent was get a premium 360 pluse 3 games for 350 shipped. not too bad if you ask me. i've seen some where you can get a 360 for under 300 shipped for the premium package alone. anyways hope this helps and good luck. i love mine, but you can never beat my price, free!!! : )

Dokworm,
Thats cool you like the arcade feature however I didn't think it was all that great. Most of the games are pretty simple games that came out for pc 5+ years ago and for 5 to 10 dollars a pop it really isn't worth it to me. If it was free this would be a totally different situation but I just think its ridiculous paying 10 for doom when it came out on pc 15 years ago.

Nah, arcade isn't really for me, I prefer running Mame on my XBOX1, but for non current gamers I've found they get right into the arcade aspect of xboxlive.

NateTTU, Thanks for the recommendation. I'll check them out.

Andre

Does anyone know the best way to hook up a 360 to a pj, for example a barco graphics 808? Would I need some sort of adapter regardless of using vga or component? I plan on using it for 480p 720p and 1080i so I am still unsure as to which, component or vga, will output all these resolutions.

I would say try just using the VGA adapter and it's included gender changer to go to a standard VGA to 5 BNC RGBHV breakout cable.

^

That's how I do it...works great.

I would say try just using the VGA adapter and it's included gender changer to go to a standard VGA to 5 BNC RGBHV breakout cable.

where is a good place for these? i imagine i could just find a typicall one on the cheapest website but i'd rather know a good dealer for them. also, how much do the cable normally cost?

I assume you already have (or will get) the Xbox 360 VGA cable - if not, it can be found just about everywhere the system is sold.

The VGA-to-BNC5 are available at computer stores (especially those that deal in parts and peripherals).

Microsoft make an official VGA cable, it comes with a gender changer and has the audio optical output on it. Pick it up at any eb etc. or any games store that sells the 360.

Thanks for the help, I'm actually more confused about the vga to bnc5 cable as I have never heard of this. I found some on a site that run from 20 to 33 dollars from 6 to 15feet long. Seem kinda expensive to me but then again I don't really know.

edit: when looking up the 360 vga cable i found a website review that says the cable only outputs up to 1360x768. meaning it doesn't output 1080i but rather just doubles the 520p output. unless of course this update in the fall would fix that, is component the only way to get the 1080i resolution?

Well, if you factor a couple of dollars per BNC connector and a couple for the VGA connector then you are up to $15 just for the raw connectors, so it isn't that bad. Blue Jean cable (link at the top of the forum) make a good quality one, quality can really vary so spend the few bucks more to get a good one.

True, the VGA cable currently puts out a maximum rez of 1360x768, but that looks better than 1080i on most projectors, and is 1360x768 *progressive*.
It also does 1280x1024P if you prefer.

The next update allows 1080P over the VGA cable, and it is true 1080P not 520P upsampled, and will do 1080P for HD-DVD playback. (most of the current games are native 720P so you might as well use 720P until the HD-DVD player comes out - Halo3 has been announced as a 1080P native game)

The component cable (which comes with the 360 anyway) does 1080i but will not do 1080P even after the update.

I think the HD-DVD add-on will be great but I am concerned about the fact that there is no HDMI output. Component is fine unless the studios block output on anthing but HDMI.

Well, once a few million XBOX HD-DVD players are out there, and the base model PS3 with no HDMI for BD playback, I can't see any flagged content showing up for at least four years on either format.
By then HD-DVD players will most likely be like DVD players, USD$50 or so, if HDMI became an issue, you could pick up a cheap player then.
So who cares about HDMI really.

I for one like the fact that the 360 has VGA connection which will allow me to go straight to my projector instead of having to use a trancoder. HDMI would not really do me any good at this point since none of my equipment has HDMI. The less item in the video chain reduces the chance of your signal being distorded, especially if the items are cheaply made. I have a 9" CRT and can't wait to see actual HD content at 1080p.
Dokworm, do you think there will be good deals on 360 bundles during the Christmas season or will the add on drive cause a 360 shortages and price increase? I'm still following and researching the PS3. I still holding to see what will happen at the beginner of the new year since I expect to return from Iraq and thats when I will need the player.

Andre

I think the only thing you will see will be game and controller bundles for the same price as the xbox on its own now.
There is no reason for shortages on the MS front, their production lines are humming. I expect severe PS3 shortages even at the high price, but Bluray is still looking like the losing format, plus who knows what problems the initial batch of machines might have in store - so I'd hold off on PS3 until their 'revision 2' hardware at least, plus I expect MS to have a price drop on the hardware at some point (maybe post christmas - who knows) and then Sony may have to follow suit. MS have a lot deeper pockets and may try to kill Sony off by making them take a huge loss on their hardware, it is going to be a bloodbath this time round in the console wars I think, if BD loses out Sony are going to have a very expensive console on their hands, If BD takes off they could stay in the drivers seat.

I think the only thing you will see will be game and controller bundles for the same price as the xbox on its own now.
There is no reason for shortages on the MS front, their production lines are humming. I expect severe PS3 shortages even at the high price, but Bluray is still looking like the losing format, plus who knows what problems the initial batch of machines might have in store - so I'd hold off on PS3 until their 'revision 2' hardware at least, plus I expect MS to have a price drop on the hardware at some point (maybe post christmas - who knows) and then Sony may have to follow suit. MS have a lot deeper pockets and may try to kill Sony off by making them take a huge loss on their hardware, it is going to be a bloodbath this time round in the console wars I think, if BD loses out Sony are going to have a very expensive console on their hands, If BD takes off they could stay in the drivers seat.


I agree. Microsoft is the closest they've ever been to mounting a signifigant challenge to Sony. Unfortunately, without support in Japan, M$ can never "bury" Sony. Hell, they sold more PS1s in Japan during the first month of the 360 launch...I mean, come on....PS1s

AFAIK, Sony's 2nd tier PS3 does indeed include HDMI. It didn't originally but it does/will now.

I've been researching the Xbox along with other new HD player and the Xbox seems to be the only one which will work for CRT owners. PS3 will only output 1080p via HDMI to a compatable HDMI projector. I'm concerned about the PQ of the Xbox after viewing it's test results in the Secret Shootout. I used a HTPC when I first got into HT and the ATI video card was pretty good but with some many advances in dvd players and scalers, can the ATI in the Xbox give you a truly outstanding PQ or are we drift backwards again in order to get HDDVD? Granted I do not own a Xbox 360 and I'm only going my the shootout report. The Opp 971 seem like the player of players. Anyone care to comment? Can the Xbox ATI card truly handle the job?

Hey,

Thought about the x-box thing for a day and stopped into gamestop and looked at the used Xbox360 systems.

However,.. I'm starting to think the best thing for me is just to wait until I can re-build my HTPC to where it has both Blu-Ray and HD drives and a HDTV tuner and lots of hard drive space and so on and so on.

I think perhaps some of the quality of Blu Ray hasn't been revealed with the current hardware and HTPC may continue to be the best way to get things done.

The original X-Box seemed a threat to HTPC to some extent just before it was released but it's easy to build a better HTPC now with old throw away parts and all these game systems as HT solutions seem to have some limitation or other that HTPC can get around easily.


-Brian

Quote "I've been researching the Xbox along with other new HD players and the Xbox seems to be the only one which will work for CRT owners. PS3 will only output 1080p via HDMI to a compatable HDMI projector. "

Fraza, Thought I should mention in case you overlooked it that DVI input boards are readily available for most notable CRT PJ's. And HDMI and DVI are just pin out differences (I think the DVI connector is actually better.) You can easily get a HDMI to DVI cable and use any off the shelf HDMI device with your 9" CRT FP. (I've seen some HDMI input boards poping up for sale now too.)


Just thought I'd make double sure you know you're not limited to stuff that outputs RGB.

=Brian

Brian, thanks for the heads up concerning HDMI device. I have a Ampro 4600 with color corrected lens on the ceiling and a just purchased an XG 110 before I departed home. I would like to see at least one HD DVD movie on the 9" CRT before I replace it with the NEC, you know the Ampro thing, to many problems. I read some posts on Moome's DVI card but it seems all these add in cards are experiencing one problem or another. I just want a clean signal from source to projector. I'll probably go with the Xbox 360 since I have two kids who love playing these games on the big screen. When I pitch the 360 to the wife as a Christmas present for the kids, then I will have an out if the 360 doesn't look good on the projector, you know "Honey, the Xbox was for the Kids" this new player $$$$.$$ is for me, "HONEST MY ONLY LOVE".

Andre

Using a Barco BG801 (Graphic), can I use the xbox set-up for HD-DVD, considering the Barco needs negative sync? What type of digital outputs does the xbox have?

Using a Barco BG801 (Graphic), can I use the xbox set-up for HD-DVD, considering the Barco needs negative sync? What type of digital outputs does the xbox have?

I think you can be fairly sure the BG801 will only accept 480p and 1024 x 768 from the Xbox, if you use the VGA cable. At least, my BD701s only likes these resolutions. Typical for many Barcos, because they don't really like positive sync... My BG1208s/2 doesn't have problems with other resolutions other than 1080p however.

I've been doing a lot of reading about this stuff and just got the XBOX 360 and HD-DVD player. I first tried it on my Dell 24" LCD via VGA. It handled 1080p beautifully. Very nice. The next step was to get this working with my Barco 1208. As other's have reported, I can't get a stable picture at 1080p through the VGA connector. Note that I tried input 3 and input 5 on the Barco - same results. The fall-back position is running 1080i through a component to RGB transcoder (Key Digital KD-CTCA3 on input 5). This is working fine. Unfortunately, the XBOX 360 does not scale DVD's higher than 480p through component. I verified on my Dell LCD that it does scale all the way to 1080p on VGA.

From my reading it sounds like the 1208 can do 1080p, so there is something going on specific with the XBOX 360 preventing 1080p. I guess I'm waiting for a fix from Microsoft unless someone can figure this out.

I will be keeping the XBOX and HD-DVD player. It's still a pretty sweet setup.

Chris

My Barco BG801 displays a 1080i signal with no problems via it's RBGHV and I understand that it will do 1080P as well, but it's the negative sync issue that I wonder about with the xbox. Can it be reversed for the Barco. I also am set up for RCA digital audio out, so does the xbox have that as well?

I also am set up for RCA digital audio out, so does the xbox have that as well?

I don't know, but probably. There is no digital audio connector on the box. The Xbox VGA cable I bought has a fiber optic plug on it. The component Xbox cable I bought (Monster) has a miniplug connector. Then they provide what looks like a coax digital to fiber optic converter, using a miniplug connector. I bet you can go coax digital with the right cable. But I haven't seen such a beast in the stores.


it's the negative sync issue that I wonder about with the xbox. Can it be reversed for the Barco.

No, not by any configuration I can find on the Xbox. I am presuming Microsoft needs to provide an update for that.

Chris

From my reading it sounds like the 1208 can do 1080p, so there is something going on specific with the XBOX 360 preventing 1080p. I guess I'm waiting for a fix from Microsoft unless someone can figure this out.

Well, when attached to the Xbox 360 the Barco 1208 might just do 1080p without a problem, but I cannot test it at the moment as my boards are just being modded by Mike Parker, and my tubes are being colorfiltered. But here is a possible solution.

Keep in mind that the 12xx chassis has a shorter retrace time than other Barcos, so we should be able to do something about the strange timings from the Xbox. Unlike many projectors out there, the 12xx have two sets of scan width coils, and thus two scanning ranges (high and low). On the Sync + Vertical deflection board there's pot P1 (Low/High Frequency Mode). This pot determines when the projector is in high or low scanning range. The factory default is 75kHz, and it is adjustable between 60 and 90kHz with a hysteresis of 4kHz. The 1080p signal from the Xbox is at 66.6 KHz. For this solution we have to adjust P1 so that 66.6 KHz is in the high scanning mode.

As you need the lowest setting, you can do the adjustment with the projector powered off. Set the pot all the way to one end and see if it switches when you turn on the projector. If it doesn't you need to power it off again and adjust it all the way to the other end.

The above does not apply to the 8xx series Barcos. Now you see why a 1208 is not just a 808 in a bigger case, but really a much better machine.

I dont like either HD DVD or BlueRay right now. Not from what Im seeing. Doug

spotmatic,

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll report back if I ever get around to trying this.

I dont like either HD DVD or BlueRay right now. Not from what Im seeing.

Doug,

Well, I'm loving HD-DVD right now - even at 1080i.

Chris

I dont like either HD DVD or BlueRay right now. Not from what Im seeing. DougI love what I'm seeing from HD-DVD, I just wish the new releases were consistent with the standard def DVD releases.

I got "Ant Bully" on HD-DVD today:
http://crtforum.com/img/antbully1.jpg

More HD-DVD screenshots in the HD-DVD forum:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=786593

Me, I like my Xbox 360 HD-DVD.. :)

Plus it does well in the dark areas:

1920x1080P
http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/8996/hpim1148ia3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/9717/hpim1147wb2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/6628/hpim1156rd2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

What don't you like about what you are seeing Doug? The HD-DVD releases I've looked at far outstrip DVD in visual quality and the audio via analogue is astounding.

Plus it does well in the dark areas:Mike,
You'll like these HD-DVD screenshots...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9494604&&#post9494604

Mike,
You'll like these HD-DVD screenshots...
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9494604&&#post9494604


Yeah - that's what I'm talking bout.. ;)

Mike,

I recently picked up the xbox HD DVD add-on as well. I don't have my 9500 hung up yet (oh, long story) but have plugged it into the 71" Sammy DLP. I've used the component cable and the VGA cable and unfortunately, the VGA cable, although giving me 1080p, seems to have a problem on the black end of the scale. It doesn't appear to be crushed blacks, just kind of washed out (not black). I can't adjust it out with the Sammy. Obviously your getting great results with VGA (I assume) into a PJ. Anything special you did or did you notice anything odd about the VGA image?? Thanks Mike...

BTW. I scoped the levels coming out of the VGA on the xbox; 34mv for black and 675mv for white. That's sort of consistent with video levels that aren't expanded to PC levels (and explains why I had to drop the brightness on my Sammy). Should be ok though, but it's not (at least on the Sammy).

Cary

Mike,

I recently picked up the xbox HD DVD add-on as well. I don't have my 9500 hung up yet (oh, long story) but have plugged it into the 71" Sammy DLP. I've used the component cable and the VGA cable and unfortunately, the VGA cable, although giving me 1080p, seems to have a problem on the black end of the scale. It doesn't appear to be crushed blacks, just kind of washed out (not black). I can't adjust it out with the Sammy. Obviously your getting great results with VGA (I assume) into a PJ. Anything special you did or did you notice anything odd about the VGA image?? Thanks Mike...

BTW. I scoped the levels coming out of the VGA on the xbox; 34mv for black and 675mv for white. That's sort of consistent with video levels that aren't expanded to PC levels (and explains why I had to drop the brightness on my Sammy). Should be ok though, but it's not (at least on the Sammy).

Cary

Cary,
good seeing you around again..:)

On my setup using the VGA out of the Xbox, I'm getting the best low end performance I've seen on anything. Though I've removed the filters from the DAC's output, I don't think the filter removal would have made a difference in the low end range. But that did make for increased punch in detail and sharpness. I'm looking into making a precise 1080P reconstruction filter for the output, because my projector does show some of the noise from the DAC without the filters. But at a good viewing distance from the screen, the noise is not noticeable.

That, plus I've shortened the VGA cable to about 12". And then put a BNC plate at the end of the 12" cable.

And again, my low end performance from the 360 is exceptional. It's so smooth, that I don't even play with the brightness adjustment on the projector. It just seems to be perfect regardless of the HD-DVD that I'm playing.

Thanks Mike!

I'm thinking the problem is in my digital set then. Dang those digitals. I can't wait to get the 9500 up again and I'm glad that the xbox is a possible solution to getting RGB off of HD DVD.

I saw your post in another thread regarding the filter removal (nice screenshots BTW). I've seen reconstruction filters in two varieties; SD which start at anout 5MHz and HD which start at about 30MHz (and programmable ones that can switch between the two). I wonder if the xbox is using a standard definition filter and the passband is really low? Now I'll have to figure out how to open this dang xbox and tinker some more...

Cary

Yeah... me too, I'm going to try and open it this weekend. My fans are a little noisey, so I got some Silentx fans for replacements, and will do the filters while I'm in there.


John

They now have a third filter band, and it's for 1080P reconstructuring. However, I don't think no one is using the 1080P reconstruction filters for 1080P sources. They seem to be running everything through the 1080I/720P HDTV (30mhz) network, or with PC cards, who knows what those networks were designed around.

The third band is 80mhz for 1080P, which is the flatness bandwidth. The Xbox (like everything else) was not designed with 1080P in the plans on the out of the DAC, but they like so many others (consumer grade) runs it right through what's already in place..:rolleyes: This is fine, but it's not good for the absolute best performance.

So far, TI has a chip that has 1080P filtering built in, but it's a data controlled chip, and would not be so easy to place in the circuit without being controlled from a processor.

So it seems someone is finally starting to look at that 80mhz flatness bandwidth will need from the DAC's. And until that happens, I'll be going around that network..

Cary, here's a few screen shots from my gallery. I don't have any before the filter removal, so these are all after:


http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/633/hpim1239cz5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/2694/hpim1175cs1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/1417/hpim1188ps8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/1675/hpim1190fo8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Cary,
I'm up the road south of Ardmore and have just picked up the 360 and HD DVD add on. I had the Chronicles of Riddick playing on my lowly 8501 and at 720p and 1080p they looked fantastic. Your more than welcome to swing over and check it out. I still have a lot of dialing in and setting up to do on the projector but I'm holding off on that til the V2 Mods from Mike come in. Cheers!

Mark....

Thanks Mark! I may take you up on that someday of you don't mind. I'd like to see first hand what the 360 HD DVD does on a Marquee. Plus, if you ever need someone to swap out parts with to debug a problem, I'm close. (Actually, I guess you know, Ardmore is really close to Madison).

Mike's screenshots don't look like what I'm seeing in the dark areas of the image for "Riddick" (Mike's look really good). I may see if there's anything in the service menu for my DLP set that affects this.

Cary

Anytime Cary. You just have to let me checkout the 9500 once you get it hung. I probably shouldn't because my wife would have a cow if I tried to upgrade projectors again. I've gone from ECP4100, Barco 800, Ampro 3600 (govliq off Redstone) didn't pan out but was a great tube doner for a BG 808 and most recently I picked up three 8501s from LM in Huntsville when they were clearing there property books for unused equipment :D .

Looks like you've got the parts covered! I've also got a couple of 8500's that I refuse to part with since so many of the parts will work in the 9500.

We'll definitely have to get together sometime! Maybe if I can get this xbox to look good in VGA on the digital set we'll have something to look at (it'll be awhile until I get the 9500 up. I moved and I've got to build a room for it).

Cary

Also don't forget that the xbox drive works perfectly in the PC, and with the backupHDDVD program you can rip the discs to your Hard Drive so you don't have to put up with HDCP issues which can drive you nuts.

You do need a fast PC (e.g. Core2Duo) and PowerDVD 7.1/7.2 but otherwise it just works. If you already have a fast PC then the 360 drive is a cheap upgrade and works a treat wether you have a 360 or not.

Apparently the Xbox does a much better job for HD than for SD? ExtremeTech panned the Xbox as an SD player, saying it failed miserably at nearly all the HQV benchmarks...
http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1697,2088531,00.asp

Also don't forget that the xbox drive works perfectly in the PC, and with the backupHDDVD program you can rip the discs to your Hard Drive so you don't have to put up with HDCP issues which can drive you nuts.

You do need a fast PC (e.g. Core2Duo) and PowerDVD 7.1/7.2 but otherwise it just works. If you already have a fast PC then the 360 drive is a cheap upgrade and works a treat wether you have a 360 or not.Dokworm, I did not know this. Are you saying that you can watch hddvd movies without purchasing either a Toshiba or Xbox player? The reason I ask is because I have a Barco 12xx and from what I have been reading Barco's and Xboxes just don't like each other. I'm not too keen about the Toshiba player either because theres no vga output.

I've already got the PowerDVD 7.1 but neither of my htpc's are core duo yet. I have been seriously looking for a core duo motherboards though and have seen them on ebay as low as $200. How fast of coreduo do you have and what do you think is needed for this application? How much do the xbox drive cost and where do you find them?

Cary, here's a few screen shots from my gallery. I don't have any before the filter removal, so these are all after:


http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/633/hpim1239cz5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


Mike, is this from DVD or Bluray?

Amazing shots BTW.

Mike, is this from DVD or Bluray?


It's a 720P (mpeg2) HDTV version of the 5th on External HD/HTPC. It's being streamed to the Xbox 360 to 1080P.

It's a 720P (mpeg2) HDTV version of the 5th on External HD/HTPC. It's being streamed to the Xbox 360 to 1080P.


Ahhh. Looks awful purty. :)

It's a 720P (mpeg2) HDTV version of the 5th on External HD/HTPC. It's being streamed to the Xbox 360 to 1080P.This just totally blows me away. Why would you take meg2 thats already in a pc and run it through an xbox? I don't see where the value added is for doing such an act.

Are you trying to tell us that the xbox does a better job than a high performance video card? Would it not make more sense to run the video chain on the shortest path through the least amount of boxes? Meaning without the xbox?

BTW, I think the screenshots look great Mike.....but then so does everyone elses screenshots here. Most people on this board I've heard say you can't tell diddly squat from screenshots though. Although personally, I dissagree with that position, I benefit a lot from them myself.

Anyway, you guys have just completely lost me with these xbox's. In particular why you are even using one for this application?

This just totally blows me away. Why would you take meg2 thats already in a pc and run it through an xbox? I don't see where the value added is for doing such an act.

Are you trying to tell us that the xbox does a better job than a high performance video card? Would it not make more sense to run the video chain on the shortest path through the least amount of boxes? Meaning without the xbox?

BTW, I think the screenshots look great Mike.....but then so does everyone elses screenshots here. Most people on this board I've heard say you can't tell diddly squat from screenshots though. Although personally, I dissagree with that position, I benefit a lot from them myself.

Anyway, you guys have just completely lost me with these xbox's. In particular why you are even using one for this application?

The reason is it does a better job than most graphics cards do.

The 'length of the video chain' is not an issue, the XBOX360 is just playing back the file over the network from the PC, it is not like a video signal is being fed from the PC into the XBOX.

The reason for doing it is multiple.

1) Your PC can be sitting in another room.
2) It is much easier to navigate the XBOX360 with a remote than it is with the PC.
3) Not much PC messing about required, so a high W.A.F.
4) You can just plug the HD-DVD drive in and play - with the PC it is a PITA to get setup etc.
5) If your PC is underpowered you can buy a 360 and playback HD content from the PC without having to go upgrade the CPU/graphics card etc. The 360 does all the work.

Really though it is ease of use, plug the sucker in and just run it all from the remote or wireless controller.

RVonse, yes you can watch HDDVD movies without either buying a Toshiba or an XBOX360, you just plug the 360 HD-DVD addon player into the PC via usb2, windows update finds the drivers and PDVD 7.1 Deluxe/Ultra will playback the movies just fine. You can get them anywhere they sell XBOX360s I guess, they are about US$200 and are launching in Australia next month for AUD$250.


Any current dual core2 will playback just fine, but I'd get a 2GHz or faster ( but they overclock very easily too, so you could get a slower one and crank it)

Garyfritz, I dunno what those guys were smoking when they tested the SD playback of the 360, but I ran the same tests and got very very different results. In particular the python disc played back with none of the artifacts they displayed - I think their LCD TV was having heart failure for some reason. It isn't the best SD player in the world but it just doesn't show the problems they showed on that site, and I couldn't get mine to look that bad no matter what I tried.

The only shortcoming of the 360 is the inability to do 75Hz or 71.928Hz, you are stuck with 60Hz or 50Hz.

RVonse, yes you can watch HDDVD movies without either buying a Toshiba or an XBOX360, you just plug the 360 HD-DVD addon player into the PC via usb2, windows update finds the drivers and PDVD 7.1 Deluxe/Ultra will playback the movies just fine. You can get them anywhere they sell XBOX360s I guess, they are about US$200 and are launching in Australia next month for AUD$250.
.That is so cool dokworm! Yes, I am very definately going to buy a drive now if for no other reason I will finally be able to play hd movies from 1 dvd disc! Its been such a PITA to throw 2-3 discs into the drive just to get all the way through.

I pretty excited about this now, looks like I will finally be able to support hd-dvd format full speed ahead.

One final question I have though, I have seen this drive offered with or without the remote. If I am only intending to connect to a pc can I get by without a remote? I am thinking I only need the usb cable and power brick, is that correct? And also, have you heard of anyone yet installing the drive right inside the pc cabinet?

Appreciate your knowledge about this dokworm.

Do you think that 71.928 hz will become available in time with software updates?

Most likely not.

RVonse, There is a very long and detailed thread over on the HTPC forum on this very topic.

Garyfritz, I dunno what those guys were smoking when they tested the SD playback of the 360, but I ran the same tests and got very very different results. Huh. I would expect the ET guys to know what they're doing, but maybe you're right and the TV was hosed. Secrets of HT & HiFi said the SD DVD was pretty good (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?articles=125&function=search#MicrosoftXbox%20360%20(Component)), and roughly the same for the HD-DVD add-on (http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=132#MicrosoftXbox%20360%20HD%20DVD%20Add-On). They complained that the players are limited to 480p over component, but if I understand right they'll both do 720p/1080i/1080p over VGA for both SD and HD?

Everything but the 1080i and that has been a bone of contention and emails o'plenty to microsoft.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but for Barco crt owners who want to watch hd-dvd are these the present options available?:

1. Xbox to projector cant be done right now at all.

2. Xbox to computer first then to projector works fine. This solution cost $200 for xbox drive plus $200 for dual core motherboard/chip combo plus $200 for a decent video card=$600 total.

3.Toshiba A1 which cost around $200 or A2 which cost around $300, then a $200 transcoder = $500 total. Or a Toshiba with a dvi box or scaler in between which runs even higher but probably even better=$1000 total.

Assuming a BG1209 projector (which has to run atleast 720p or higher) I am wondering which alternative does everyone think would offer best bang for buck? The computer route seems to have the advantage because it will be ready for h.264 and mpeg4 plus not be so vulnerable to HDMI restrictions. However I am wondering how it is going to look having an xbox drive box hanging outside the cabinet with its seperate power supply part. The Toshiba solution has almost the same problem though since there are boxes that will have to hang off the backside of it. And at the end of the day I am wondering which route will give the best picture. Neither of these alternative are very professional IMO but perhaps I can get by until something else comes up.

What do you guys think? Which way is preferred for the Barco owner or should I wait a little longer?

1. Xbox to projector cant be done right now at all.



You can't use the VGA cable option?

My son brought over his new Xbox 360 and we connected it up to my Sony G70 projector on a 108" screen via the component video inputs, and the games looked fantastic on it. I'm interested in HD-DVD, so I'm wondering whether I should get the XBox 360 HD-DVD option (if there is one) or a stand alone player like the Toshiba HD-XA2. Would anyone having any opinions or experience with these options?

Right now I watch standard DVDs through a Pentium 4 HTPC, but I get tired of having to control it with a mouse and also tired of occasional crashes.

You can't use the VGA cable option?If its a Barco I'm pretty sure, no. If its another brand like Sony I think it works but I think the picture has some of the width cut off. So basically the answer is no even with other projectors too unless you don't want to watch all of the picture. But maybe others can correct me if I am wrong about this.

My son brought over his new Xbox 360 and we connected it up to my Sony G70 projector on a 108" screen via the component video inputs, and the games looked fantastic on it. .If you put up a test pattern do you get all of the width? Are you running 720p or 1080p? I remember reading Clarence or someone had trouble with his width was close but not all the picture is there.

However I hope I am wrong.

When my son came over and we tried out the XBox 360, he and my other son were just playing games, so I didn't pay much attention to it. But he will bring it over again and we can do some adjusting on it and check horizontal and vertical frequencies to determine what resolution it is running on. All we did was plug it in to the component video connections and turn it on. It seemed to me though, that it filled the 16x9 widescreen OK.

I also want to try playing a standard DVD in it and compare the quality to my HTPC. He showed me a link to an add-on HD-DVD accessory for $200.

Just remember if you are trying to compare component out for standard dvd all you are going to get is 480p. The only way to get upconverted dvd is using the VGA out.

What do you guys think? Which way is preferred for the Barco owner or should I wait a little longer?

Just a note based on my experience. The Xbox add-on drive, used with a computer, is by no means plug and play. Just wander over to the HTPC section and pick one of the many threads dealing with that "solution" and see how many problems there can be. I've basically given up, being unable to get a Core2Duo and 7600GT system, via analog, to work.

That said, if the hardware and software interfaces ever become mature, and if the result is that you can play back the content at 48 or 72 or 96 refresh rates, it's probably the way to go for CRT guys. (I've got a 1208s/2) The problem with either the Xbox alone or the disc players is that you're limited to 60, and I can't see investing heavily in some technology that is limited in that way. Just my dos centavos - Pat

I think I will get one of those Xbox drives for my HTPC and use the illegal decrypter program to decrypt legally bought HD-DVD's to the hard drive and then watch them in full quality on my turbo tuned (HD-144 lenses, upgraded RGB amps, one and a half year old tubes) BG 808. That seems like the best solution for me. Or should I go for a Moome setup? Wonder if that will work with this thing. I prefer to keep my stuff purely HTPC anyway...

Just remember if you are trying to compare component out for standard dvd all you are going to get is 480p. The only way to get upconverted dvd is using the VGA out.

I'm a bit confused I guess. I thought "component out" was "vga out"?

Right now, I have two inputs to my Sony G70 projector - one is component video (three conductors) from my Dishnet HD DVR, and the picture in 1080i is terrific. The other input is 5 BNC (RGBHV) from my HTPC radeon video card. I watch standard DVDs using a resolution of 1280 x 720 (720p?).

Watching movies in HD from the Dishnet DVR is clearly superior to my standard DVDs played on the HTPC, which I think is 720p. Perhaps it is only the DVD, rather than the HTPC, that is limiting the quality.

Both of these connections are analog, so I guess I don't understand why I am limited to 480p? Is it because the HD DVD player limits the resolution to 480p unless you use a digital connection?

If that's the case, perhaps I'll need to buy one of the HDMI/DVI input cards for the projector. I certainly don't want to DECREASE the quality of the viewing of my standard DVDs.

I'm a bit confused I guess. I thought "component out" was "vga out"? No, the component out is the 3 conductors. VGA is the plug on the back of your computer you are using to get your 5 BNC

Right now, I have two inputs to my Sony G70 projector - one is component video (three conductors) from my Dishnet HD DVR, and the picture in 1080i is terrific. The other input is 5 BNC (RGBHV) from my HTPC radeon video card. I watch standard DVDs using a resolution of 1280 x 720 (720p?). Consider yourself lucky to have a Sony that can take component video directly in. Most of us Barco owners only have 5 BNC (RGBHV)/VGA input.

Watching movies in HD from the Dishnet DVR is clearly superior to my standard DVDs played on the HTPC, which I think is 720p. Perhaps it is only the DVD, rather than the HTPC, that is limiting the quality.HD is supposed to be 5 times more quality than standard dvd material.

Both of these connections are analog, so I guess I don't understand why I am limited to 480p? Is it because the HD DVD player limits the resolution to 480p unless you use a digital connection?

If that's the case, perhaps I'll need to buy one of the HDMI/DVI input cards for the projector. I certainly don't want to DECREASE the quality of the viewing of my standard DVDs.Thats the big question on my mind too. Is the extra expense of upgrading with HDMI going to be worth it all? I still don't know.

Just a note based on my experience. The Xbox add-on drive, used with a computer, is by no means plug and play. Just wander over to the HTPC section and pick one of the many threads dealing with that "solution" and see how many problems there can be. I've basically given up, being unable to get a Core2Duo and 7600GT system, via analog, to work.How fast is your Core2Duo? I just bought yesterday (ebay item 260085244491) and (ebay item 250083646624) which sounds almost exactly what you already own. So far I am into this project about $300 and I was planning to spend another $200 on an Xbox drive today. But now that I read your post here I am wondering if this is going to pan out.

Do you know for sure your drive is good?

Is the extra expense of upgrading with HDMI going to be worth it all? I still don't know.

Well, even after considering all the HDCP garbage that comes with it, it's probably worth it. We will get 30bit color, digital all the way to the display device and much better audio.

Unfortunately my preamp only does DD and DTS and my projector is RGBHV. I am using a digital display right now that has HDMI but I don't intend for it to be my main HT display.

Cary

How fast is your Core2Duo? I just bought yesterday (ebay item 260085244491) and (ebay item 250083646624) which sounds almost exactly what you already own. So far I am into this project about $300 and I was planning to spend another $200 on an Xbox drive today. But now that I read your post here I am wondering if this is going to pan out.

Do you know for sure your drive is good?

It isn't that hard to setup.

1. Make sure you have a real purchased copy of PowerDVD 6.5 or 7.1
2. Install the XBOX HD-DVD drive *before* you install PDVD
3. Let windows update install the HD-DVD drive for you
4. Go to 'My computer' and see if you can view the contents of the HD-DVD in your drive - if you can't then download the toshiba drivers, right click on them and then choose 'install'
5. Restart the PC
6. Install PDVD
7. You must use analogue all the way (not DVI) *OR* have a HDCP compliant card and monitor.
8. Don't use Vista
9. Use a fast PC (Core2 Duo is ideal)
10. Use an ATI card :)
11. You may have to turn off your card's video acceleration features if they cause havoc, and if an Nvidia card you may have to go back to a slightly older version, the latest drivers seem a bit buggy.

That is about it really.

if you have HDCP issues then the HD-DVD ripper on doom9.org will let you play them back from your hard drive via DVI, analogue whatever.

It isn't that hard to setup....

That is about it really.

if you have HDCP issues then the HD-DVD ripper on doom9.org will let you play them back from your hard drive via DVI, analogue whatever.Thanks Dokworm. Well I just won an Xbox drive on ebay so real soon I will be able to give this my best shot. I figure I can always sell the drive again if I can't make it go.

If its a Barco I'm pretty sure, no. If its another brand like Sony I think it works but I think the picture has some of the width cut off. So basically the answer is no even with other projectors too unless you don't want to watch all of the picture. But maybe others can correct me if I am wrong about this.

Interesting.

I can verify that the ECP-3100 will accept the Xbox 360 vga out (via VGA-to-5BNC) very nicely. I was running 720p straight off the 360 w/o any cut-off or other issues.

Clarence was having the cut off issues with his G90 so it is a known issue with the Sony products. I can't confirm or deny it with my 8501 due to the fact I haven't done the anamorphic mod yet and that hoses it all up.

Mark....

I think it is only 1080P that has the cut off issues.

So if one has a 9" CRT projector and wants to run HD DVD at 1080p @ 72Hz what's the most cost efficient way to achieve that? HD DVD player and scaler or HTPC with XBox 360 HD DVD drive? I have a HD-A1 but no HD scaler and a HTPC that cannot handle 1080p CPU-wise. Getting a Lumagen Vision HDP seems to be the easy yet expensive way to go. I get the impression that the HTPC solution can be costly too and has its quirks, not to mention the lack of lossless surround sound support. It's really too bad that the standalone players cannot pipe out 1080p. It's like having a sports car that can do 200mph (1080p @ 72Hz) but has a chip that prevents it from going past 90mph (720p/1080i @ 60Hz) and to remove the chip will cost you more than the car costs (cost of a friggin HD scaler)! Stupid. Can someone hack-up the HD DVD players already! :D

So I am curious I haven't played with the HD DVD player and a computer, but is it now possible with the ripping program mentioned to rip HD DVDs to your computer and then stream them to the 360?

You can't stream them from the 360 yet AFAIK.

Mike, I'd say if you have to shell out for a whole new PC etc. then maybe the Lumagen is the way to go as you can use it with any source and get other nice features.
How much is 'expensive'

So if one has a 9" CRT projector and wants to run HD DVD at 1080p @ 72Hz what's the most cost efficient way to achieve that? HD DVD player and scaler or HTPC with XBox 360 HD DVD drive? I have a HD-A1 but no HD scaler and a HTPC that cannot handle 1080p CPU-wise. Getting a Lumagen Vision HDP seems to be the easy yet expensive way to go. I get the impression that the HTPC solution can be costly too and has its quirks, not to mention the lack of lossless surround sound support. It's really too bad that the standalone players cannot pipe out 1080p. It's like having a sports car that can do 200mph (1080p @ 72Hz) but has a chip that prevents it from going past 90mph (720p/1080i @ 60Hz) and to remove the chip will cost you more than the car costs (cost of a friggin HD scaler)! Stupid. Can someone hack-up the HD DVD players already! :D I also own a 9" projector (BG1209) so I am in exactly the same boat as you. How much does a Lumagen Vision HDP box cost and what would it do for you? Its a little late for me to change my mind at this point but if you notice my comments above, I just dropped $500 ($300 for the x2 motherboard and $200 for the xbox drive) for a solution that I hope will work. Dokworm has convinced me this will work anyway. If all goes well I will be watching hddvd's at 1080p in the near future. I am hoping the Gforce 7600GT I bought for this will provide good video quality, it remains to be seen.

I think it is only 1080P that has the cut off issues.Yep... 1080p from the XBox360's VGA cable won't display the entire test pattern on a G90... I lose about 10%.

The other resolutions work fine from the VGA cable. But there is no VGA option for 1080i.

Component works fine at all resolutions.

I also own a 9" projector (BG1209) so I am in exactly the same boat as you. How much does a Lumagen Vision HDP box cost and what would it do for you? Its a little late for me to change my mind at this point but if you notice my comments above, I just dropped $500 ($300 for the x2 motherboard and $200 for the xbox drive) for a solution that I hope will work. Dokworm has convinced me this will work anyway. If all goes well I will be watching hddvd's at 1080p in the near future. I am hoping the Gforce 7600GT I bought for this will provide good video quality, it remains to be seen.

Well it will work, but I don't know if you can get 71.928Hz with HD-DVD on the PC at the moment. You can certainly set that resolution and refresh rate and the movies play back but I don't think anyone has looked to see if the judder is reduced from the standard 60Hz 1080P.

I also own a 9" projector (BG1209) so I am in exactly the same boat as you. How much does a Lumagen Vision HDP box cost and what would it do for you? Its a little late for me to change my mind at this point but if you notice my comments above, I just dropped $500 ($300 for the x2 motherboard and $200 for the xbox drive) for a solution that I hope will work. Dokworm has convinced me this will work anyway. If all goes well I will be watching hddvd's at 1080p in the near future. I am hoping the Gforce 7600GT I bought for this will provide good video quality, it remains to be seen.


lumagen hdp will do everything for $1200 new. ivtc ...custom res ...24frame /sec multiples.

So we're basically talking, what, ~$1000 for a HTPC w/HD DVD drive and enough balls that it can do HD DVD at 1080p @ 60Hz or HD DVD player or a Lumagen Vision HDP and HD DVD stand-alone player for ~$1600 that will allow HD DVD at 1080p @ 72Hz (or whatever else is ideal).

I guess ideally one should have both a nice scaler and a HTPC as some content you'd feed right from the HTPC to the projector, such as downloaded content and games. Plus, HTPCs makes great DVRs with a MyHD card. Looks like it's time to kill myself saving for the Lumagen Vision HDP! I should probably start by selling off my 5 other CRT projectors collecting dust in my basement.