Regretably, I do not have a photo of the Pioneer Gen 8. As you may recall, it was positioned next to a current production LCD.

The Pioneer booth and the Canon/Toshiba booth were quite a ways away from each other. There were long lines to see each if the demos, but the SED lines were the longest. Both asked that no photos be taken and so I have none of the Pioneer demos.

My calibrated eyes (I've looked at a lot of flat TV's as I work in the business) says that you cannot really tell the differnce betwen the black levels of the two devices.

Astrobuf

Sounds very good about the Pioneer Plasma developments. If SED turn out to be the real thing great, but should it not, it will be nice to have a decent alternative.
What were your impressions, seeing it in person, of how the pedestal or base of the SED panel looked.
Since you are in the business, I take it you will be attending the upcoming CES. If you are, would you mind if some of the SED posters suggested some things that you might seek answers for?. Thanks.

Sounds very good about the Pioneer Plasma developments. If SED turn out to be the real thing great, but should it not, it will be nice to have a decent alternative.
What were your impressions, seeing it in person, of how the pedestal or base of the SED panel looked.
Since you are in the business, I take it you will be attending the upcoming CES. If you are, would you mind if some of the SED posters suggested some things that you might seek answers for?. Thanks.
I do always go to CES. I also generally attend 3-4 other, more technical display conferences each year. Let me know what your interested in.

Astrobuf

I do have an idea as to what will happen and yes, in the interest of the advancement of display technology as a consumer advocacy issue, I would like to see SED become the standard.

Don't know what you mean by "standard". Do you mean the others should just vanish ... not good for the consumer.

Look at DLP. Much better blacks than LCD. We all thought LCD days were numbered. Not so - they came back with better LCDs and sony with their SXRD. That has forced DLP to finally get into 1080p and 3 chip and other stuff which they would have never done at a good price left to themselves ....

Mods,
Please don't 'kill' this thread. While there is way too much 'fanboy-ism' here, we also are getting good new info from the likes of Astrobuf, who has seen the 55" SED AND the new gen Pioneer plasma panels. His comments are invaluable imho.
Censure individuals if you have to, (frankly I just skip their fatuous posts), but don't terminate the thread.
Bish

:yawn:

I'm just waiting for CES 2007 to see how far SED has gone. There's so much chatter going on here for no particular reason. I don't know how you guys can talk so much! SED will come out eventually...and that is when the real debates can start. All we can do now is wait unfortunatley. ;)

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20061026/122798/

PHOSPHOR for a light source is a 100yr-old technology and a terrible one compared with more pure and wider-gamut light sources we have today
PROOF of this is before our eyes: CRTs & PLASMAS are being rejected by consumers and manufacturers.

Still there will always be people who can't adapt to progress ("Records & Needles are better than Digital Audio" and "CRTs are better than CCFL, LED, LASER"). We call these people LUDDITES.





Plasma is not being rejected by this consumer! And, yes, I still love analog sound over the digital sound...still drive my speakers with mono valve (tube) amps. Hey, I even play vinyl records now and again..love them. Most people today have not even heard really superb sound.

If you want a thread worthy of termination consider the Pioneer FHD-1 thread which amounts to one guy babbling about the FHD-1 being "the king" for hundreds of posts. At least in this thread we are receiving some information about a potentially disruptive technology.

I vote for a time-out on the SED thread until there is either significant news or a commercial unit comes out.

Otherwise it's all flamebait.

My question is this. If SED sets aren't as bright as LCD and Plasma but have much better black levels then wouldn't the set be just as bright in practice? In order to get decent blacks on my LCD I have to turn the brightness way down. Seems like you wouldn't need to do this with the SED meaning you get all of the usable brightness.

I vote for a time-out on the SED thread until there is either significant news or a commercial unit comes out.

Otherwise it's all flamebait.

We would prefer to keep this thread open and limited to SED technology: but we need everyone's cooperation by not posting off topic

Thank you :)

My question is this. If SED sets aren't as bright as LCD and Plasma but have much better black levels then wouldn't the set be just as bright in practice? In order to get decent blacks on my LCD I have to turn the brightness way down. Seems like you wouldn't need to do this with the SED meaning you get all of the usable brightness.

That's the idea ;) It's also one of the reasons people are very hopeful and excited about this tech besides it's other inherent bennefits.

I have a feeling that in the 65" price range, SED will just be so much higher than it's Plasma counterpart. Hell, 65" Panny is 10K right now, hopefully by the time SED comes out 65" plasma will be in the high 5K range. I don't think there's anyway someone would pay a 5-10K premium for a 1st generation panel over a 10th/11th generation panel.

Agree 100%.

I make no bones about it, I'm a SED Technology fanboy and I think for good reason. If you don't like that I'm leading the charge for SED why do you even post here. This thread is for SED. I'm extremely enthusiastic for SED and I'm hoping like hell this technology is a success. I have gone through counteless HDTV's seeking videophile bliss and much to my chagrin I haven't been able to get there with current display technology. While Plasma is good, I'm glad that I saw the light of plasma especially after owning DLP and Lcos RPTV's, I think SED will push the PQ envelope even further.

OK, I appreciate your enthusiasm....can I ask you if you agree with the mid-2007 expectations for a rollout of SED (considering all the past delays going back to 1999) and also what do you expect a 42" SED TV to cost in late 2007/early 2008 (or whenever it's available) ?

If SED's won't be made that small, then give me a price guestimate for a larger size. Thanks. :)

OK, I appreciate your enthusiasm....can I ask you if you agree with the mid-2007 expectations for a rollout of SED (considering all the past delays going back to 1999) and also what do you expect a 42" SED TV to cost in late 2007/early 2008 (or whenever it's available) ?

If SED's won't be made that small, then give me a price guestimate for a larger size. Thanks. :)

From everything I've gathered from Toshiba/Canon, it will be the 55"er only for the first generation SED's, scheduled for either late 2007 or sometime in 2008 before the Bejing Summer Olympics. As for pricing, I'd have to suggest that you think of the price of the highest-end top-tier Plasma or LCD of comparable size and you should be in the same ballpark.

Anyone ever seen mention of a possible 26" SED ?
Maybe a 720p unit ?
Last year I purchased a 42" HD Plasma and by the time it'll need replacing I'll be able to get a affordable 42" SED. I Hope.

My question is I'm looking for a high quality picture for my bedroom TV which I use a lot. The current 26" LCD don't cut it for me, maybe next generation LCD's will but I've never seen any new technologies mention going down to the 26" size.

Will I be able to get a 26" SED, OLED , TDEL screen one day ?

My question is this. If SED sets aren't as bright as LCD and Plasma but have much better black levels then wouldn't the set be just as bright in practice? In order to get decent blacks on my LCD I have to turn the brightness way down. Seems like you wouldn't need to do this with the SED meaning you get all of the usable brightness.
You are basically correct for dark room viewing. So long as you have about 500 nits, viewing is just fine in a theater like setting.

The problem is that most people do not watch TV in a theater. There is always some ambient light, so peak brightness of at least 1000nits is required for good viewing in typical home viewing locations.

I am not sure what the SED peak brightness is, but it is strange that the demos ahve never been shown except in dark theaters. This suggests to me that peak brightness remains a problem for this technology.

I do know that CNT FED devices seem to have plenty of peak brightness, so I theorize that the SED emitters are not very efficient at the present time. This may have somethign to do with the way the SED "crack" is formed and the limits that exist in the present high voltage "bias" that can be sustained without arcing.

I'll be at a major display conference in early December and expect I will have more first hand information at that time.

Astrobuf

Anyone ever seen mention of a possible 26" SED ?
Maybe a 720p unit ?
Last year I purchased a 42" HD Plasma and by the time it'll need replacing I'll be able to get a affordable 42" SED. I Hope.

My question is I'm looking for a high quality picture for my bedroom TV which I use a lot. The current 26" LCD don't cut it for me, maybe next generation LCD's will but I've never seen any new technologies mention going down to the 26" size.

Will I be able to get a 26" SED, OLED , TDEL screen one day ?
A 2X" SED will be a long time out. Mfg cost issues will keep it from being offered in this size for some time. There is no technical problem with small SED's though smaller generally will mean lower luminous efficiency and dimmer.

Who knows, PDP's too may soon be able to go down in size to this range. Pioneer showed the equivalent of a 32" FHD PDP at CEATEC three weeks ago.

I would not hold out for OLED's in this size range for some time. Power consumption and lifetime will keep this from happening for many years. OELD's will have to earn their stripes in disposable devices such as cell phones for a while.

Astrobuf

I imagine that "never" is when SED production will be directed down at 26 inches. In fact, until the middle of next decade when OLED production >>might<< have taken off, I doubt you'll see anything other than LCD in that size category.

I am not sure what the SED peak brightness is, but it is strange that the demos ahve never been shown except in dark theaters. This suggests to me that peak brightness remains a problem for this technology.

I do know that CNT FED devices seem to have plenty of peak brightness, so I theorize that the SED emitters are not very efficient at the present time. This may have somethign to do with the way the SED "crack" is formed and the limits that exist in the present high voltage "bias" that can be sustained without arcing.

Astrobuf

Very real concerns.

Don't hold your breath waiting for these to arrive at your local WAL*MART :D

SED will have to be very cheap to mass produce to succeed. I'm sure this is what Canon/Toshiba are hoping for.

You are basically correct for dark room viewing. So long as you have about 500 nits, viewing is just fine in a theater like setting.

The problem is that most people do not watch TV in a theater. There is always some ambient light, so peak brightness of at least 1000nits is required for good viewing in typical home viewing locations.

I am not sure what the SED peak brightness is, but it is strange that the demos ahve never been shown except in dark theaters. This suggests to me that peak brightness remains a problem for this technology.

I do know that CNT FED devices seem to have plenty of peak brightness, so I theorize that the SED emitters are not very efficient at the present time. This may have somethign to do with the way the SED "crack" is formed and the limits that exist in the present high voltage "bias" that can be sustained without arcing.

I'll be at a major display conference in early December and expect I will have more first hand information at that time.

Astrobuf

I will hold off on any questions I might have for you to inquire about at CES, and wait until you post what you find out at the December display conference. You may get the answers to some of my questions at that conference. Thanks.

I will hold off on any questions I might have for you to inquire about at CES, and wait until you post what you find out at the December display conference. You may get the answers to some of my questions at that conference. Thanks.

Astrobuf has already answered my most important question when he was able to compare the SED demo w/the next genration Pioneer Plasma and stated the black levels and PQ were so close he really could not say which was better. Imagine this competitive marketplace just waiting for SED whereby there will not be hardly a smidgeon of PQ difference between the video techs.

Astrobuf has already answered my most important question when he was able to compare the SED demo w/the next genration Pioneer Plasma and stated the black levels and PQ were so close he really could not say which was better. Imagine this competitive marketplace just waiting for SED whereby there will not be hardly a smidgeon of PQ difference between the video techs.


I guess we can go ahead and close this thread now. And while we're at we need to send a memo to Toshiba/Canon and tell them to cease going forward with SED, because a poster have declared that there is no difference between SED and Plasma and based upon that one post and that post alone, contrary all other video experts, video professional and videophiles worldwide who seen SED, they need to save themselves billions of of dollars and by dropping SED. :rolleyes:

You are basically correct for dark room viewing. So long as you have about 500 nits, viewing is just fine in a theater like setting.

The problem is that most people do not watch TV in a theater. There is always some ambient light, so peak brightness of at least 1000nits is required for good viewing in typical home viewing locations.

I am not sure what the SED peak brightness is, but it is strange that the demos ahve never been shown except in dark theaters. This suggests to me that peak brightness remains a problem for this technology.

I do know that CNT FED devices seem to have plenty of peak brightness, so I theorize that the SED emitters are not very efficient at the present time. This may have somethign to do with the way the SED "crack" is formed and the limits that exist in the present high voltage "bias" that can be sustained without arcing.

I'll be at a major display conference in early December and expect I will have more first hand information at that time.

Astrobuf

I guess my more humorous post with the Porsche analogy was not deemed "acceptable" so let me try to rephrase.

As I've mentioned before LCD and SED are bred for different viewing environments. While you're right that SED may not have the peak light output that LCD does IMO it doesn't matter. And I doubt I'm alone there ;) Also as mentioned by another poster, you have to turn LCD's light output WAYYYYY down to get anything even aproaching a respectable black level.

If you want a display to watch in your 30th floor New York apartment with floor to ceiling windows at high noon, by all means go right ahead and buy an LCD, SED is probably not going to be the best display for you. For people who tend to watch more TV at night or in a more critical, darker room with almost any light control SED should by all accounts give a better picture. Period.

As always there's no "best display", there's only the best display for an application. Back to my earlier analogy, you buy a Porsche, Ferrari etc for high performance driving, you buy a Jeep, Land Rover etc for offroad driving. It's up to you to decide what best fits YOUR needs. I'd say for most of the people hoping and waiting for SED are waiting exactly for the reasons you've deemed as "faults".

I would want to be able to watch daytime Football, Baseball, Golf, and such on a SED display. I would require it to perform at a satisfactory level during daylight, regardless of it's darkroom display quality. If it can not deliver on that, then it is not really going to be a product with mass break through appeal. Joe Six Pack likes to watch Sunday afternoon football.

I would want to be able to watch daytime Football, Baseball, Golf, and such on a SED display. I would require it to perform at a satisfactory level during daylight, regardless of it's darkroom display quality. If it can not deliver on that, then it is not really going to be a product with mass break through appeal. Joe Six Pack likes to watch Sunday afternoon football.

Well it should perform at least as well as a direct view CRT in that regard and J6P has been QUITE happy watching football etc on lesser SD versions of those ;)

I think that I will just wait and see how the new plasmas and SEDs actually perform. I refuse to be rushed, and I absolutely refuse to ever purchase something that is not available, despite how perfect it may be. I have my principles, and I absolutely refuse to be forced into now purchasing what is not yet being produced. That is my stance alone, and I do not want anyone who feels otherwise, to hold of from now purchasing one of the unavailable SED or 20.000 to 1 plasmas. There is one clear advantage to buying one of them now. Neither will have any detectible performance issues. ;)


Well folks, that was my position back in October. Now that CES has strutted it's stuff, I decided it was time to reevaluate my position, and after long and careful contemplation I have decided that since Toshiba and Canon have not yet started to manufacture SED panels, I am force to stick to my principles and just not purchase one at the present time. I am taking a firm stand. If they are not making it, then by God, I refuse to order it.

Sanity Erasing Delusionol. (SED)

Ask your Canon Spin Doctor if it is right for you.

I think that I will just wait and see how the new plasmas and SEDs actually perform. I refuse to be rushed, and I absolutely refuse to ever purchase something that is not available, despite how perfect it may be. I have my principles, and I absolutely refuse to be forced into now purchasing what is not yet being produced. That is my stance alone, and I do not want anyone who feels otherwise, to hold of from now purchasing one of the unavailable SED or 20.000 to 1 plasmas. There is one clear advantage to buying one of them now. Neither will have any detectible performance issues. ;)

You got me laughing hard at one! Great post, and I agree totally. I definitely DO want to see SED break out and be a video tech competitor in the marketplace. As a consumer, we all win on many levels when there is competition. I just know for myself, I will not wait 5-6 years for an HT Upgrade as this is approx. how long it will be before enough succeeding SED generations (provided SED is released on present schedule) to come out and establish its reliability & capability, etc. I'm through w/being an Early Adopter in this biz...been there, done that.

[QUOTE=nataraj]Don't know what you mean by "standard". Do you mean the others should just vanish ... not good for the consumer.

Yep, that is exactly what I mean other inferior display technologies should vanish. When I say standard, I', mean reference standard.


Look at DLP. Much better blacks than LCD. We all thought LCD days were numbered. Not so - they came back with better LCDs and sony with their SXRD. That has forced DLP to finally get into 1080p and 3 chip and other stuff which they would have never done at a good price left to themselves

Those things you mentioned above are nice, but they are not comparable to SED. SED is on entirely new plane when it comes to display technology.

I vote for a time-out on the SED thread until there is either significant news or a commercial unit comes out.

Otherwise it's all flamebait.

Why can't we talk about SED? It would be flame bait if it weren't for those who want to continually cast doubt on this new ground breaking display technology.

Why can't we talk about SED? It would be flame bait if it weren't for those who want to continually cast doubt on this new ground breaking display technology.

How many times have you seen an SED set in person?
Bish

How many times have you seen an SED set in person?
Bish

I think for 99% of us, the answer is NONE.

Until these sets are either advertised on TV or available to check out at CC or BB or even an upscale retailer, SED remains a thread on AVS or just an occasional article in the video/audio magazines.

I think for 99% of us, the answer is NONE.

Until these sets are either advertised on TV or available to check out at CC or BB or even an upscale retailer, SED remains a thread on AVS or just an occasional article in the video/audio magazines.

I am more than aware of that. My question was specifically directed at Auditor55 as he is so adamant in his belief that SED will signal the end for all other flat panel technologies. I currently have a Pio 940HD that produces such an incredibly life like 'picture', (when fed high quality HD), that it can almost seem '3-D'. We now have a poster, Astrobuf, who has seen the next gen Pioneer panels with even higher CR who states that it was very hard to tell any difference between the two, (SED and Pio plasma), even though the SEDs were only allowed to be seen in a darkened room.
I'm all for new technology in new flat panels and am willing and able to pay for them AS LONG AS the actual viewing results are markedly greater than current tech, (i.e. PDP and LCD), that just get better every 6 months. If SED is only marginally better than the PDPs and LCDs that will be on the market in 2008, and IF it attempts to command a large premium for that marginal increase in 'video resolution', it is doomed to failure. Nothing Toshiba/Canon has done over the last few years has made me feel confident about their ability to manufacture and sell at a marketable price this potentially exciting new product, and nothing Auditor55 has said can convince me otherwise AT THIS POINT IN TIME. If he has other knowledge, he needs to share it with the members of the forum who appreciate facts, not conjecture.
Bish

this thread is supposed to be about the technology of SED;

request we limit posts to SED News and technology

I am more than aware of that. My question was specifically directed at Auditor55 as he is so adamant in his belief that SED will signal the end for all other flat panel technologies. I currently have a Pio 940HD that produces such an incredibly life like 'picture', (when fed high quality HD), that it can almost seem '3-D'. We now have a poster, Astrobuf, who has seen the next gen Pioneer panels with even higher CR who states that it was very hard to tell any difference between the two, (SED and Pio plasma), even though the SEDs were only allowed to be seen in a darkened room.
I'm all for new technology in new flat panels and am willing and able to pay for them AS LONG AS the actual viewing results are markedly greater than current tech, (i.e. PDP and LCD), that just get better every 6 months. If SED is only marginally better than the PDPs and LCDs that will be on the market in 2008, and IF it attempts to command a large premium for that marginal increase in 'video resolution', it is doomed to failure. Nothing Toshiba/Canon has done over the last few years has made me feel confident about their ability to manufacture and sell at a marketable price this potentially exciting new product, and nothing Auditor55 has said can convince me otherwise AT THIS POINT IN TIME. If he has other knowledge, he needs to share it with the members of the forum who appreciate facts, not conjecture.
Bish

This thread isn't about Plasma or future plasma displays. This is the SED thread. We are supposed to discuss SED news and information. Having said that, each time read about SED technology I become more convinced that this technology is a must. It is with out doubt the latest and greatest display technology. In my opinion, based upon what I have read about the SED technology, it is superior to Plasma in every aspect of display technology. Again, I own a Plasma and LCD set but I know what I know and the experts seem to have agreed that SED is superior.

The superior PQ of SED have never been in question, the questions have come regarding SED's market viability.

In my opinion, based upon what I have read about the SED technology, it is superior to Plasma in every aspect of display technology. Again, I own a Plasma and LCD set but I know what I know and the experts seem to have agreed that SED is superior.


You never answered the original question:



How many times have you seen an SED set in person?


Well??

hdtvmagazine.com has a current article which shows the results of a survey 0f 1281 current HD TV owners. Results show that almost twice as many people own LCD HD tvs, as those who own Plasma sets. The really strange thing is: the Graphic Chart shows that seven people said they own SED tvs.

Has anyone been able to dig up any information about the phosphors Toshiba/Canon intend to use with their SED panels? Saying "it's the same as CRT" is not an answer because there are many different phosphors in use. A few years back NEC announced some "wide colour gamut" CRTs that were supposed to support more of the old Adobe 1998 color space (based on NTSC) by using different phosphors. I'm very curious about this issue now that I've heard what the LCD competition is planning. Also, phosphor selection will likely make a difference in the responsiveness and brightness of the panels. Thanks for any information.

That's why it's foolish to assume that SED has a wider gamut simply because it's based on "CRT", when there's a tremendous variation in these phosphors. I tried to make that point earlier, but if fell on deaf ears.

Greenland:

Just goes to show that the buyers are really confused and actually have no idea what is inside the box. Generally, our data shows that they buy on "Thin" and then "Price". Further, most are wary of new technologies such as SED as consumers buy Large Area TV's for 10+ years expected life.

That's why it's foolish to assume that SED has a wider gamut simply because it's based on "CRT", when there's a tremendous variation in these phosphors. I tried to make that point earlier, but if fell on deaf ears.
The CRTs in CRT-RPTVs have color lenses to get the exact color requirements of ATSC or NTSC. I'm sure SED isn't going to have lenses. This is one, of many reasons, why I prefer RPTV-CRT over direct view CRT or any other type of display for that matter. A true videophile doesn't care about the size of his set, he only cares about the picture on it. If SED wants to compete with flat panel for the average buyer, it will have to cost no more than other technologies and hopefully less. I'll replace my CRT-RPTV when SED has at least as good of a picture and costs no more than a CRT-RPTV. I'm not holding my breath as it is going to have to be at least a 73"er.

I'm just the opposite, I much prefer a "direct" view self-illuminating display, ie. CRT & Plasma. SED would fall into that category as well. Every video tech has problems, but the big deal breaker for me on RPTV's is poor viewing angles. If I were searching for a larger 70+" display, then that's another story, and the best I've ever seen in that category was/is the Sony Qualia 006. You're probably looking at 5-6 years before SED "may" deliver on a similar size display. You've got quite a wait ahead of you!

The CRTs in CRT-RPTVs have color lenses to get the exact color requirements of ATSC or NTSC. I'm sure SED isn't going to have lenses. This is one, of many reasons, why I prefer RPTV-CRT over direct view CRT or any other type of display for that matter. A true videophile doesn't care about the size of his set, he only cares about the picture on it. If SED wants to compete with flat panel for the average buyer, it will have to cost no more than other technologies and hopefully less. I'll replace my CRT-RPTV when SED has at least as good of a picture and costs no more than a CRT-RPTV. I'm not holding my breath as it is going to have to be at least a 73"er.

If I am not mistaken I believe that the SED panels will have colour correcting filters over top of the phosphor. I can't remember where I saw this but it should be relatively easy to do as the processing of the glass must be the same as for LCDs?

Seen the Qualia 006, I like my set better and there are no reflections, something that may shoot down SED also for me..

I know this has probably been discussed here, but the contrast ratio of SED (100K:1) is this comparable to other technologies if there is no peak brightness to link it to?

Static CR level as I have seen them are measured from darkest to brightest on a given display.

Could it be that a LCD or Plasma will look just as good with a lower CR? Have we ever gotten any brightness levels from the Official SED sites? If the blacks are great, but your peak light levels are low, this would be a major problem. It would let you give great CR specs, but in comparison to what?

If SED is only half as bright as an LCD or plasma, does that CR mean anything at that point?

That's why it's foolish to assume that SED has a wider gamut simply because it's based on "CRT", when there's a tremendous variation in these phosphors. I tried to make that point earlier, but if fell on deaf ears.
I heard you. To many unanswered questions about SED. The phosphor type is another one. What type of phosphors, will it be a low energy type that is used in plasmas and hence subject to burn in issues? Will it be more of high energy type that is used in CRT and less prone to burn in?

Remember in the old thread this was discussed. There was allot of speculation about what the Kev levels that an SED cell would produce. None of that has been repeated here. Assuming that SED cells are just like a CRT is IMO insane. There is no way the comprable energy levels can be produced with the technology they are using.

Nanotubes in the news:

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9584_22-6132855.html

I heard you. To many unanswered questions about SED. The phosphor type is another one. What type of phosphors, will it be a low energy type that is used in plasmas and hence subject to burn in issues? Will it be more of high energy type that is used in CRT and less prone to burn in?

Remember in the old thread this was discussed. There was allot of speculation about what the Kev levels that an SED cell would produce. None of that has been repeated here. Assuming that SED cells are just like a CRT is IMO insane. There is no way the comprable energy levels can be produced with the technology they are using.

According to the papers I have:

tunnelling voltage ~5V
anode voltage ~12,000V

There is definitely burn in issues that actually delayed SED for years. The solution is to double the number of emmiters (2 per pixel) to reduce current density on the phosphors.

According to the papers I have:

tunnelling voltage ~5V
anode voltage ~12,000V

There is definitely burn in issues that actually delayed SED for years. The solution is to double the number of emmiters (2 per pixel) to reduce current density on the phosphors.

This will spread out the electrons so that they impact the phosphor over a more widely distributed area I take it?

Nanotubes in the news:

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9584_22-6132855.html

I had read about nanotubes before, I understand that Samsung is pushing that technology for small displays.

So.......... is this thread still active??

So.......... is this thread still active??Carnac the Magnificent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnac_the_Magnificent) predicts SEDs will be demo'ed once again at next year's CES (http://www.cesweb.org/default.asp) with no models released during 2007. ;)

So would one hold off on buying a LCD today, and wait for SED, or are the new LCD's today from a price point standpoint worth buying and waiting for the next wave 10 years from now? I guess that's the million dollar question.....

So would one hold off on buying a LCD today, and wait for SED, or are the new LCD's today from a price point standpoint worth buying and waiting for the next wave 10 years from now? I guess that's the million dollar question.....

Why compare SED to LCD? If you want to compare various video techs, your closest cousin to SED is "Plasma" in relation to PQ, and the fact that both are phosphor based & self-illuminating direct-view flat panel displays.

So would one hold off on buying a LCD today, and wait for SED, or are the new LCD's today from a price point standpoint worth buying and waiting for the next wave 10 years from now? I guess that's the million dollar question.....

Yea. I'm waiting. I've got a 40" Sony Tube "KV-40XBR800". I've talked about this before here.. was strongly encouraged to go Plasma by a lot of people..... but I'm gonna hold out for SED, and wait until the price drops on it. In my never to be humble opinion, LCD is very "sub par" to what I've got now and to plasma... and Plasma isn't any better than what I've got now.

Take a look at the most expensive 1080p PDPs, add at least 20% to that cost and this is what first generation SEDs will go for. Panasonic has made a tremendous capital investment into their manufacturing facilities and the economy of scale enables them to sell "budget" priced 720p PDPs, while remaining profitable.

Toshiba/Canon will not be able to duplicate Panasonic's model, so while perhaps worth it, there will always be a premium attached to SED FPs.

Why not buy a "reasonably" priced 720p PDP now and wait for what will most likely be another five years to upgrade to an SED TV?

The CRTs in CRT-RPTVs have color lenses to get the exact color requirements of ATSC or NTSC. I'm sure SED isn't going to have lenses. This is one, of many reasons, why I prefer RPTV-CRT over direct view CRT or any other type of display for that matter. A true videophile doesn't care about the size of his set, he only cares about the picture on it. If SED wants to compete with flat panel for the average buyer, it will have to cost no more than other technologies and hopefully less. I'll replace my CRT-RPTV when SED has at least as good of a picture and costs no more than a CRT-RPTV. I'm not holding my breath as it is going to have to be at least a 73"er.

You won't get a 73 incher from Toshiba/Canon any time soon, but you will get a great picture, the kind of picture that isn't offered with any of today's digital displays.

Yea. I'm waiting. I've got a 40" Sony Tube "KV-40XBR800". I've talked about this before here.. was strongly encouraged to go Plasma by a lot of people..... but I'm gonna hold out for SED, and wait until the price drops on it. In my never to be humble opinion, LCD is very "sub par" to what I've got now and to plasma... and Plasma isn't any better than what I've got now.


Very smart. I purchased a Panny Plasma and it wasn't budget buster, while I'm waiting on SED

So when will the 1st SED TVs come out?

link to separate thread

In 20 years: What kind of Display/Resolution/Sources will we be discussing on AVS? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8926647&&#post8926647)

You are basically correct for dark room viewing. So long as you have about 500 nits, viewing is just fine in a theater like setting.

The problem is that most people do not watch TV in a theater. There is always some ambient light, so peak brightness of at least 1000nits is required for good viewing in typical home viewing locations.

I am not sure what the SED peak brightness is, but it is strange that the demos ahve never been shown except in dark theaters. This suggests to me that peak brightness remains a problem for this technology.

I do know that CNT FED devices seem to have plenty of peak brightness, so I theorize that the SED emitters are not very efficient at the present time. This may have somethign to do with the way the SED "crack" is formed and the limits that exist in the present high voltage "bias" that can be sustained without arcing.

I'll be at a major display conference in early December and expect I will have more first hand information at that time.

Astrobuf

Just wanted to check with you to see if you still plan on attending the display conference in December. If you do, please report back on what you learned.. When in December will the conference be held?.

Should you get access to more SED development details and pictures, that would be great. I would love to know if SED panels will have to be pedestal type only, or do they plan on also designing them to hang on walls. Weight factor is what I am thinking of. See if they will provide the weight of a 55inch panel. Also, do they plan on using any third party components. I just shudder at the thought of Toshiba getting some of the parts from Orion :) . Another question I have, will Toshiba and Canon models be exactly alike, just badged for each brand, or will they have different features, and if so, what will the differences be. Well, that is what I would like to hear about, and also what we discussed before, about how they look when they are demonstrated in daytime lighting conditions. Thanks again.

A site that has a constant stream of SED gossip:

http://www.sed-tv-reviews.com/

There are some links to an SED demo and an interview with a marketing guy in the latest post.

SED...............come out already!!!! We can't wait anymore!!!

A site that has a constant stream of SED gossip:

http://www.sed-tv-reviews.com/

There are some links to an SED demo and an interview with a marketing guy in the latest post.

I read that stuff over and over again to get that high pondering over SED.

I am a big fan of SEDs and will jump on the bandwagon when they come out at a reasonable price if LCD and Plasma technology slows down and starts to level off. If they were out today I'd buy one now. I see them as the pinnacle of current technology. But technology doesn't stand still. Personally, I'm thinking LCD is the technology that is the future, because that future is already happening and just too expensive right now. With HD TV dealing with resolution, what are the other two big things for a great picture? Well, there's the response time but LCDs are already starting to cut that down to an insignificant amount. Then there's contrast-ratio -- getting your black black, and color reproduction.

Contrast ratio can be increased infinitely, because as soon as you get black down to true 0, it's infinite by definition and all you can talk about is max brightness, and you start getting into high dynamic range images. People are saying LCD can never get down that low because it has a backlight. Not so -- the iris technology in most LCD displays solves that to some extent but it's problem is that it is uniform across the display. Brightside Technologies solves that by having a backlight that is basically a lo-res LED version of what's on the screen, meaning that the backlight is not uniform, being darker behind the dark parts of the scene and brighter behind the bright parts. This allows for infinite contrast ratio and also support for high dynamic range (which already does have a supported format that is an extension to the MPEG-2 and 4 spec). So LCDs will end up having the highest contrast ratio of all. I can't send the URL because I'm too new, but Google Brightside Technologies.

As for color reproduction, once again, a wider color gamut helps with this, not beyond our vision, but beyond the current abilities of most monitors, which are very limited. Demoing that is very difficult without seeing the display because the monitor you are watching on is incapable of displaying that range, but it makes a huge difference, and not just in saturation, but many shades of green and fluorescents that cannot be reproduced at all right now. This is also supported in the HDMI 1.3 spec which supports defining colors in the full color gamut, which is beyond what current monitors support, but does have a spec. Just do a Google Images on color gamut for the standard diagrams of human vision versus monitor or printer.

Anyway, I can't find the links right now, but there's lots of research using six primary color displays to get ninety-some percent of the visible human color gamut, which is way more than is out there now, and it's primarily focused on LCDs. I see no reason why that technology couldn't be be carried over to SEDs as well.

I have personally seen both HDR displays and Natural Color displays, and they are amazing. It's not a subtle difference between them and current displays. It's about the same level of difference as the difference in resolution between SD and HD. SED is a step, but it's not there.

My only point is, if SED were here today at a reasonable price I would buy it in a second, as would probably everyone else here, because it blows all current tech out of the water. But no one is going to stand still. If they do, with this flooded market, they will be gone. The good news is, unless something goes really wrong, SED is the worst that things could be in a couple years. They can only be better if plasma and LCD see this as a threat and make some massive improvements to keep up.

Does it blow CRT/RPTV away? I think not. Unfortunately one won't be able to buy CRT or SED pretty soon. My 73" CRT-RPTV is holding me over quite well. Plus I don't have any reflections off my screen, a potential SED killer for me.

I predict that SED's will only manage to grab a small share of the market initially. LCD's are here to stay, and will dominate the low-end to mid-range market which is where most of the sales are.

Given the technology and the brightness they're talking about with these displays, has there been any mention of the potential for burn-in, or do we assume that at worst it would be no worse than current CRT tech?

Does it blow CRT/RPTV away?


What dont blow away rp-crt? This is 2006 not 1906. :)

Does it blow CRT/RPTV away? I think not. Unfortunately one won't be able to buy CRT or SED pretty soon. My 73" CRT-RPTV is holding me over quite well. Plus I don't have any reflections off my screen, a potential SED killer for me.

We can only hope that reflections won't be so bad as to be a deal breaker for some.

SED is pretty much the rebirth of the CRT. They say the CRT is dead, maybe, but it will be reborn in 2008 and it will be called SED.

SED...............come out already!!!! We can't wait anymore!!!


No waiting for me! I recently ordered the Panny 50" 9UK, upgrading from my 3½ year old 42". The 50" is now selling for just 55% of what the going price was in August, and Panasonic is throwing in a free 5 year warranty! With price declines like that, I just don't see Toshiba and Cannon being able to gain much traction in this business unless they absorb huge losses initially while they try to ramp up volume.

-Steve

No waiting for me! I recently ordered the Panny 50" 9UK, upgrading from my 3½ year old 42". The 50" is now selling for just 55% of what the going price was in August, and Panasonic is throwing in a free 5 year warranty!


I just did the exact same thing. Mine comes in on Thursday.

With price declines like that, I just don't see Toshiba and Cannon being able to gain much traction in this business unless they absorb huge losses initially while they try to ramp up volume.

-Steve

I would have to agree. Plasma prices are dropping like a lead ballon. In addition, the 20,000:1 CR PDPs are due out in a year or two.

SED better be awesome and it better be cheap. Otherwise, why bother.

I just did the exact same thing. Mine comes in on Thursday.


Hey, mine too! Probably on the same truck. I hope I get the one that doesn't buzz! :D

No waiting for me! I recently ordered the Panny 50" 9UK, upgrading from my 3½ year old 42". The 50" is now selling for just 55% of what the going price was in August, and Panasonic is throwing in a free 5 year warranty! With price declines like that, I just don't see Toshiba and Cannon being able to gain much traction in this business unless they absorb huge losses initially while they try to ramp up volume.

-Steve

Do you happen to have a link to the Panny?

Also, do you know if it has dual tuner PIP?

Plasma prices are dropping like a lead ballon. In addition, the 20,000:1 CR PDPs are due out in a year or two.

SED better be awesome and it better be cheap. Otherwise, why bother.Precisely... the "street" price for the PRO-FHD1 has dropped 40% below the original MSRP of $10,000 :eek: in less than (3) months.

Let's all buy a cheap, I mean inexpensive, 1080p PDP during 2007 and an even cheaper, I mean more inexpensive, SED TV during 2009 - 2010.

Do you happen to have a link to the Panny?

Also, do you know if it has dual tuner PIP?

Wrong thread to be discussing plasma features. As for your question, the commercial versions don't have tuners.

Wrong thread to be discussing plasma features. As for your question, the commercial versions don't have tuners.and Panasonic has never made a PDP with dual tuners either

I read that stuff over and over again to get that high pondering over SED.
Great to hear that my site is being read by people here. SED news is pretty thin these days so not many postings lately. I'm looking forward to CES2007 to be able to see the SED TV in person. Apparently everyone who sees it wants it.

As for this forum, I'm still catching up on all the posts here. Lots of good info and points of view. Thanks for having me here.

Why do so many people who have opted to buy a new plasma or LCD feel the need to post that information on the SED thread?. How is some unknown person writing that they have just purchased a new Plasma or LCD relevant to SED updates?.

It seems odd that some,"new highly satisfied" owners of current flat panel sets are still engaged in SED stalking. That makes as much sense as newlyweds bragging about how great their new marriages are, in a singles club :)

Why do so many people who have opted to buy a new plasma or LCD feel the need to post that information on the SED thread?Most likely because... while SED remains in the vaporware category... there isn't much else to talk about.

December 7, 2006
Sony Forms FED Display Venture
By Reuters

TOKYO, Dec 7 (Reuters) - Sony Corp. said on Thursday it would establish a joint venture with a technology fund to develop a type of flat panel called field emission display.

Sony said it and Tokyo-based Technology Carve-out Investment Fund (TCI) would invest a total of 2.5 billion yen ($21.7 million) in the venture, which will start operations on Dec. 18 with about 30 employees.

Sony will take a 36.5 percent stake in the venture with TCI investing the remaining 63.5 percent.

Field emission display (FED) technology was invented in the 1970s as a possible alternative to the traditional cathode-ray tube TV but has never been commercialised, losing out to liquid-crystal displays and plasma displays in the flat panel race.


Toshiba Corp. and Canon Inc. are working together on a technology similar to FED called surface-conduction electron-emitter display (SED), aiming to compete with LCD and plasma technology in the fast-growing flat TV market.

FED and SED technology can be use to develop flat displays that are bright, consume relatively little electricity and have wide viewing angles, but it remains unclear whether they will ever be commercially viable.

LCD and plasma display TVs have already been on the market for several years. Picture quality for both has improved greatly and production efficiency has risen sharply due to big investments by makers such as LCD TV giant Sharp Corp.

Sony spokesman Chisato Kitsukawa said any further investments would be made after assessing the venture's results in 18 months. The likely commercial target of FED technology would be large professional-use displays such as those used at broadcasters, he said.

Sony started work on development of FED technology in 1998 with a California-based company called Candescent Technologies Corp., but began developing the technology on its own from 2002.

Candescent filed for bankruptcy in 2004. Canon bought Candescent's patents in an auction.

The electronics maker is primarily focusing on LCD technology for the consumer flat TV market, and has formed a joint venture with South Korea's Samsung Electronics Co. to boost output for large LCD panels.

Prior to the announcement, shares in Sony closed up 0.7 percent at 4,610 yen. The benchmark Nikkei average rose 0.62 percent on the day.

Most likely because... while SED remains in the vaporware category... there isn't much else to talk about.

So, either they can not figure out how to write about their new plasmas or LCDs on threads about those technologies, or they are not as happy with their decisions as they claim to be. Either way; their posts are still not relevant, and add nothing to the official SED NEWS thread. :)

I just did the exact same thing. Mine comes in on Thursday.



I would have to agree. Plasma prices are dropping like a lead ballon. In addition, the 20,000:1 CR PDPs are due out in a year or two.

SED better be awesome and it better be cheap. Otherwise, why bother.

Here we go again with all the SED gloom and doom forecast. From all eye witness accounts, which many been posted and linked throughout the SED threads, nothing comes close to SED.

I don't care if a 50 inch Plasma will be $500.00 it won't be SED.

Why do so many people who have opted to buy a new plasma or LCD feel the need to post that information on the SED thread?. How is some unknown person writing that they have just purchased a new Plasma or LCD relevant to SED updates?.

It seems odd that some,"new highly satisfied" owners of current flat panel sets are still engaged in SED stalking. That makes as much sense as newlyweds bragging about how great their new marriages are, in a singles club :)

LOL :) :) :)

Interesting thread: A couple of thoughts after reading through it.

1. I hope SED is everything it is cracked up to be. But even it is, I doubt it'll make LCD's/PDPs obsolete (or even CRTs). Even if the picture is brilliant, it'll be pricey as hell for at least a few years. I sincerely doubt the manufactures of PDPs and LCD's R&D departments will just fold up. Technology on these displays gets better every season and the prices come down as well. If the SED's are that good then the bar will be that much higher. Good news for all of us, no matter what format we end up buying.

2. A few of you seemed to be predicting Sony's demise based on their choosing LCD as the thin display of choice. First of all - if you for those who can set aside any bias they may have against LCDs and just look at the high end Sony's - those screens look damn good - at least they do to the average viewer (me) maybe not the average videophile. Blacks look inky black, I could detect no wash out at any angle I'd choose to watch on any TV, colors are amazing and images were sharp as hell. LCD's like PDPs get better each generation - I don't think Sony's made any dramatic error by choosing to focus on LCDs and I look forward to seeing whatelse they can do with the technology.

3. CRT's are probably doomed, not because of SED but because nobody wants a 34" set that weighs 200lbs and takes up a huge amount of space. I own one myself and love the picture, but will eventually trade in for a thin screen. For those with the space, it's pretty nice way to get a top notch HDTV picture for under 900 dollars now.

4. For myself - the technology is reaching the point I doubt I'll notice any real difference between succeeding generations of TVs. What I'd like see in the next few years: I'd really like to see the prices on high end sets in the 40" - 50" realm to come down to earth. If SED helps to get us there - GREAT.

So, either they can not figure out how to write about their new plasmas or LCDs on threads about those technologies, or they are not as happy with their decisions as they claim to be. Either way; their posts are still not relevant, and add nothing to the official SED NEWS thread. :)OK, so rather than "bash" every post that doesn't agree with you... tell us something "new" about SED that we don't already know.

...would invest a total of 2.5 billion yen ($21.7 million) in the venture...
FED and SED technology can be used to develop flat displays that are bright, consume relatively little electricity and have wide viewing angles....
That amount of investment is somewhat akin to the tea budget for meetings held in the main conference room. Sounds like trying to throw some money toward a product that will be another Sony proprietary spec that can do battle with everyone else in the market place that will produce the Canon/Toshiba spec SED! :D

Here we go again with all the SED gloom and doom forecast. From all eye witness accounts, which many been posted and linked throughout the SED threads, nothing comes close to SED.

I don't care if a 50 inch Plasma will be $500.00 it won't be SED.

Auditor,

Have YOU ever seen an SED display in action? Just curious.

OK, so rather than "bash" every post that doesn't agree with you... tell us something "new" about SED that we don't already know.

What posts have I bashed. I still want to know why people want to report about their Plasmas and LCD purchases on a SED thread. How the hell is that bashing. There are Official Owners threads for Plasmas and LCDs, and that is where they should be posting their new owner remarks and questions. Now tell us something new that you have learned about SED from those posts on here that say some strangers have just bought some Plasma or LCD sets.

That is the point. Unless it contains some relevant SED information, then it is just Off Topic and Off Thread ramblings. There will not be much more factual reports about SED until CES, and not a great deal more, worth while, after that, until they actually hit the market. Regardless, if there is not frequent breaking news on SED developments, that does not translate to: " Please tell us all about your New Plasma and LCD purchases, and also please feel free to engage in troubleshooting questions and answers about those technologies". What part of SED news and Technology, in the thread title, is so hard to understand!.

Interesting thread: A couple of thoughts after reading through it.

1. I hope SED is everything it is cracked up to be. But even it is, I doubt it'll make LCD's/PDPs obsolete (or even CRTs). Even if the picture is brilliant, it'll be pricey as hell for at least a few years. I sincerely doubt the manufactures of PDPs and LCD's R&D departments will just fold up. Technology on these displays gets better every season and the prices come down as well. If the SED's are that good then the bar will be that much higher. Good news for all of us, no matter what format we end up buying.

2. A few of you seemed to be predicting Sony's demise based on their choosing LCD as the thin display of choice. First of all - if you for those who can set aside any bias they may have against LCDs and just look at the high end Sony's - those screens look damn good - at least they do to the average viewer (me) maybe not the average videophile. Blacks look inky black, I could detect no wash out at any angle I'd choose to watch on any TV, colors are amazing and images were sharp as hell. LCD's like PDPs get better each generation - I don't think Sony's made any dramatic error by choosing to focus on LCDs and I look forward to seeing whatelse they can do with the technology.

3. CRT's are probably doomed, not because of SED but because nobody wants a 34" set that weighs 200lbs and takes up a huge amount of space. I own one myself and love the picture, but will eventually trade in for a thin screen. For those with the space, it's pretty nice way to get a top notch HDTV picture for under 900 dollars now.

4. For myself - the technology is reaching the point I doubt I'll notice any real difference between succeeding generations of TVs. What I'd like see in the next few years: I'd really like to see the prices on high end sets in the 40" - 50" realm to come down to earth. If SED helps to get us there - GREAT.

I too hope SED meets its potential, the challenge will be ramping up the volumes high enough so that the price is in at least striking distance of LCD. SED can not come to market in the 10K price range and hope to win market share...even with the better performance.

Plasma and CRT are dead because OEM's are going to stop producing them...in the end, LCD per unit costs are plummeting to a point that plasma can not compete and given they have recently closed the "performance" gap, you can see why companies like Sony have abondoned ship on Plasma.

Great way to forcast is to watch for plant annoucements, it kind of gives you an indication of where the market is going to be in two years.

What posts have I bashed. I still want to know why people want to report about their Plasmas and LCD purchases on a SED thread. How the hell is that bashing. There are Official Owners threads for Plasmas and LCDs, and that is where they should be posting their new owner remarks and questions. Now tell us something new that you have learned about SED from those posts on here that say some strangers have just bought some Plasma or LCD sets.

That is the point. Unless it contains some relevant SED information, then it is just Off Topic and Off Thread ramblings. There will not be much more factual reports about SED until CES, and not a great deal more, worth while, after that, until they actually hit the market. Regardless, if there is not frequent breaking news on SED developments, that does not translate to: " Please tell us all about your New Plasma and LCD purchases, and also please feel free to engage in troubleshooting questions and answers about those technologies". What part of SED news and Technology, in the thread title, is so hard to understand!.If it lives up to all the "hype," I'd like to own an SED someday... until then, I'll keep buying PDPs. :)

Plasma and CRT are dead because OEM's are going to stop producing them...in the end, LCD per unit costs are plummeting to a point that plasma can not compete and given they have recently closed the "performance" gap, you can see why companies like Sony have abondoned ship on Plasma.



thanks for this multi-LOL paragraph.

(while there is a germ of truth here, it's so vastly overstated that it renders it effectively meaningless. And, Sony got out because they couldn't compete in the plasma category, not because of some keen and prescient business judgement that it was a dead-end category. Of course, they've been saying things along these lines now, but they're not exactly dispassionate observers are they?).

Auditor,

Have YOU ever seen an SED display in action? Just curious.

Nope not yet, I don't know if my heart could take it. :)

I don't care if a 50 inch Plasma will be $500.00 it won't be SED.

You should care.

For if a 50" plasma will cost $500, SED will have no chance unless it is comparably priced.

It seems odd that some,"new highly satisfied" owners of current flat panel sets are still engaged in SED stalking. That makes as much sense as newlyweds bragging about how great their new marriages are, in a singles club :)

Pure curiosity I think and now that you brought it up, I did just buy a new LCD. I will spare everybody all of the virtues and reasons for which I bought it.

I come back here to watch how fanatical some people are about SED (I am not including you in that statement Greenland). I work with FPD manufacturing equipment and like to see what people come up with out there. The post that Sony is going to start up more research into FED is worth the visit to this thread alone.

I understand the high hopes that allot of people have in SED. What I don't understand is that some of the fans out there believe that it will be the end all of FPD and places that now are producing Plasma and LCD (and some very good ones to) should just give up and bow to C/T. It is akin to how some people believe the same about Blu-Ray (How dare those companies produce a product to compete with Blu-Ray).

Just fascinating to watch how mesmerized some people are with a technology that in reality very little is known. Lets face it real details on SED is lacking. The details of the SED technology is why this thread exists.

Very true TNG, but one big correction...Sony has NEVER left FED. Sony R&D has been working hard on FED from the getgo, and I expect their research labs will introduce another version of FED ( remember that SED is a version of FED) in the near future. It's really quite silly to imagine Toshiba/Canon taking over the high tech video market of ANYTHING, much less the lucruative video display market. Take a REAL pill.

so what is the latest word on when we can buy a sed?

Sometime between 2008 and the extinction of the Earth. ;)

Sometime between 2008 and the extinction of the Earth. ;)Really, so we've ruled out any release during 2007?

several pages ago, yes.

You are basically correct for dark room viewing. So long as you have about 500 nits, viewing is just fine in a theater like setting.

The problem is that most people do not watch TV in a theater. There is always some ambient light, so peak brightness of at least 1000nits is required for good viewing in typical home viewing locations.

I am not sure what the SED peak brightness is, but it is strange that the demos ahve never been shown except in dark theaters. This suggests to me that peak brightness remains a problem for this technology.

I do know that CNT FED devices seem to have plenty of peak brightness, so I theorize that the SED emitters are not very efficient at the present time. This may have somethign to do with the way the SED "crack" is formed and the limits that exist in the present high voltage "bias" that can be sustained without arcing.

I'll be at a major display conference in early December and expect I will have more first hand information at that time.

Astrobuf

Astrobuf:

We have not heard from you in a while. Did you attend the display conference yet, and if so, did you get any more details that you can share with us?. Thanks. :)

several pages ago, yes.So while the price of 1080p PDPs continues to plummet, SED remains vaporware, why am I not surprised. ;)

Very true TNG, but one big correction...Sony has NEVER left FED. Sony R&D has been working hard on FED from the getgo, and I expect their research labs will introduce another version of FED ( remember that SED is a version of FED) in the near future.

Not exactly what I read from this EETimes (http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=196602782) article:

Sony carves out FED technology
(02:44 PM EST, 12/08/06)
Sony will carve out its field emission display technology as a separate company, choosing OELD as the next-generation display technology.

I read that as "you are on your own -- sink or swim."

You should care.

For if a 50" plasma will cost $500, SED will have no chance unless it is comparably priced.

I don't care because I don't intend on going backwards. I already have a plasma set, come 2008 Plasma will be all but an obsolete technology. You can love plasma until the cows come home but that's not going to change the fact that when SED arrives Plasma technology will be a second rate display technology. You know it, I know it and everyone that follows display technology developments knows it. Once the SED Pandora's box is open you are not going to be able to close it. Once we all see it for ourselves we're all going to check our budgets. There's going to be a wailing and a gnashing of teeth, we will quickly become dissatisfied with our plasmas, LCD's, Lcos etc., they will look exactly like $500.00 sets in comparison to SED.

SED is the display technology we have all been waiting
for and as I always say "good things comes to those who wait".

I understand the high hopes that allot of people have in SED. What I don't understand is that some of the fans out there believe that it will be the end all of FPD and places that now are producing Plasma and LCD (and some very good ones to) should just give up and bow to C/T. It is akin to how some people believe the same about Blu-Ray (How dare those companies produce a product to compete with Blu-Ray).

Blu-Ray and HD-DVD is a joke right now and represents a full fledge fleecing of America, even the esteemed Consumer Electronic Association have advised the consumer against purchasing any of those formats.

SED on the otherhand will be something that is truly in the best interest of consumer. SED will be the closest we have come to PQ perfection.

I know this may not set to well with some of you that already believe that Plasma and or LCD is the pinnacle of display and that it can't get any better so why bother with SED. Thankfully for videophiles world wide Toshiba/Canon are doing their best to advance display technology beyond Plasma and LCD.

.... the fact that when SED arrives... ...Once we all see it for ourselves.... There's going to be a wailing and a gnashing of teeth, . When it arrives. :rolleyes:
Maybe by then, cars will be flying (along side pigs) :D
and the prize in a box of Crackerjacks will be a coupon for a measly old Plasma.
But hey, I’m sure it will look great.

It's a good sign they finally displayed a 1080 panel in a 55" size; that is the kind of configuration you could actually sell.
However, videophiles are the ones who care about the picture improvement over Plasma and LCD. For Joe Six-pack, plasmas and LCDs have improved to the point that the difference will not be enough to support a big price difference. Ultimately SED will have to be able to leverage the supposed inherently lower manufacturing cost in order sell enough panels to pay off the manufacturing facility investment.

Which brings to me my question for the group: Is there anything about the manufacturing process for SED that makes the cost less geometrically proportional to the screen size? Ex. For PDP and LCD, the cost of a panel increases much more rapidly than the area, 65" flat panels end up costing up to 3 times as much as 50" panels. Rear projection TVs do not balloon in as rapidly with size keeping them in business for larger sizes. Is there anything about the ink-jet printing techniques and screen materials used in SED that would flatten that curve compared to other flat panels? If SED goes up in cost less rapidly with size than competing flat panel technologies, that would help give SED a crucial edge.

I don't care because I don't intend on going backwards. I already have a plasma set, come 2008 Plasma will be all but an obsolete technology. You can love plasma until the cows come home but that's not going to change the fact that when SED arrives Plasma technology will be a second rate display technology. You know it, I know it and everyone that follows display technology developments knows it. Once the SED Pandora's box is open you are not going to be able to close it. Once we all see it for ourselves we're all going to check our budgets. There's going to be a wailing and a gnashing of teeth, we will quickly become dissatisfied with our plasmas, LCD's, Lcos etc., they will look exactly like $500.00 sets in comparison to SED.

SED is the display technology we have all been waiting
for and as I always say "good things comes to those who wait".

Current issue of Home Theater Mag that I received today stated quite clearly that the new Pioneer 60" plasma, with a CR of 20,000:1, was every bit as good as SED where both were displayed. It said that in no uncertain terms. Looks like SED may well be DOA. And plasma obsolete by 2008? Me thinks not baby puppy. :rolleyes:

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

I propose limiting posts in this thread to those who have actually laid eyes on an SED set in person. Without actually looking at the thing, no one can say, "SED will blow away (currently available display technology of choice)," or, "SED will be no better than (currently available display technology of choice)," without being full of hot air.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

I propose limiting posts in this thread to those who have actually laid eyes on an SED set in person. Without actually looking at the thing, no one can say, "SED will blow away (currently available display technology of choice)," or, "SED will be no better than (currently available display technology of choice)," without being full of hot air.


If that were to happen, you may as well close the thread, as it would become eerily silent.

It's actually quite funny how some here proclaim how great SED is and how it will bury everything else, when they haven't even seen it.

We are talking about a new DISPLAY technology, right? I would think that one would have to actually see it first, before being able to make such bold predictions.

Imagine a similar thread in the speaker foum:

"XXX is the greatest speaker technology ever!! It will BLOW AWAY every other speaker that exists today!! Everything else will sound like crap!! Oh, BTW, I've never actually heard this technology, but again, I'm sure it will be the best."

Ridiculous :rolleyes:

All Canon/Toshiba has to do is put Fujitsu's name on a SED set and people here will bow down and worship it.

I don't care because I don't intend on going backwards. I already have a plasma setDo you own a 1080p PDP? Would you consider this platform a "step up" from 720p displays?

All Canon/Toshiba has to do is put Fujitsu's name on a SED set and people here will bow down and worship it.

Ain't it the truth! :D

I doubt we will hear any real news on SED until CES, which is only a month away. Toshiba/Canon will have their work cut out for them to overcome Plasma & LCD tech advances. It seems the only sunny news for them lately has been Fujitsu's announcement of a $23,000 1080p 65" Plasma, which is probably right in line w/their marketing plans to release their SED 55"er at "comparable" pricing to competing flat panel displays. I guess my old axiom of "you pay to play" in this AV game will be stretched to the limit...along w/my wallet.

It's a good sign they finally displayed a 1080 panel in a 55" size; that is the kind of configuration you could actually sell.

Which brings to me my question for the group: Is there anything about the manufacturing process for SED that makes the cost less geometrically proportional to the screen size? Ex. For PDP and LCD, the cost of a panel increases much more rapidly than the area, 65" flat panels end up costing up to 3 times as much as 50" panels. Rear projection TVs do not balloon in as rapidly with size keeping them in business for larger sizes. Is there anything about the ink-jet printing techniques and screen materials used in SED that would flatten that curve compared to other flat panels? If SED goes up in cost less rapidly with size than competing flat panel technologies, that would help give SED a crucial edge.
It is an economy of scale. Like semiconductor production, when you increase the subsrtate size (1"-2"-4"-6"-8" and now 12") you increase the amount of product that can be ran in a single process. The trade-off is the footprint of the equipment used for process (larger fabs cost more money to build and maintain) and the cost of the larger equipment.

Despite the fact that Canon is a leader in the bubble jet field, the problem seems to be partly due to the problems in production using BJ. If they get this working, it will bring down prices because there will be less process steps needed to produce a screen. But when you move to larger screen sizes they will have the same problems as traditional LCD and PDP manufactures, size of the equipment and fab space.

Some of the equipment that our company sells for Gen 8 glass can be almost 100 meters in length (Gen 8 glass is about 8' by 7'). This will shrink somewhat with the BJ tech, but the process tools will still be large and expensive, as will the fabs.

[QUOTE=wilburpan
I propose limiting posts in this thread to those who have actually laid eyes on an SED set in person. Without actually looking at the thing, no one can say, "SED will blow away (currently available display technology of choice)," or, "SED will be no better than (currently available display technology of choice)," without being full of hot air.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:[/QUOTE]

Since you posted on this thread, can we then feel confident that you have actually "laid eyes on an SED in person"?. Please give us a detailed description of when and where you saw a SED in person, and what information you garnered from the experience. Thanks. :)

Back in the good old CRT days Toshiba was actually a major manufacturer/supplier of high quality and VERY well regarded CRT's....before they started outsourcing them for their TV's ;)

In fact, I believe one of the most highly regarded CRT monitors ever made, the Princeton AR3.4FTW used Toshiba tubes unless I'm mistaken.
I am (still) using a Toshiba CRT tube TV as my HD TV. I hope to replace it with something similar in terms of black levels, contrast, speed, and viewing angles. So far I have not been wow'd by the current crop of LCDs and LCoS sets. I've been looking at 46" LCDs, but it seems a 55" SED would fit the bill too. However, I don't want to play more than $3000. 2008 would be perfect timing though. If a new technology surpasses SED for similar cost in 2008, then that's great. Competition is good. However, I am not confident LCD or plasma will equal or even approach the SED prototypes by 2008. However, I don't think that I will be able to get a $3000 55" SED in 2008 either. But I will wait to see how everything shakes out. Anyways... Back on topic...

What is the risk of stuck/dead pixels on SED? Is it as bad as with LCD? Note. I'm only interested in 1080p displays.

What about pixel death over time with SED? Pixels on LCD displays essentially stay intact for the life of the product (assuming they weren't stuck/dead to begin with).

Do you own a 1080p PDP? Would you consider this platform a "step up" from 720p displays?

I own a 720p Plasma and no I don't consider 1080p at step up from 720p, I just haven't seen a real differences.

I propose limiting posts in this thread to those who have actually laid eyes on an SED set in person. Without actually looking at the thing, no one can say, "SED will blow away (currently available display technology of choice)," or, "SED will be no better than (currently available display technology of choice)," without being full of hot air.

Since you posted on this thread, can we then feel confident that you have actually "laid eyes on an SED in person"?. Please give us a detailed description of when and where you saw a SED in person, and what information you garnered from the experience. Thanks. :)
Unfortunately, I haven't seem one in person. However, [1] I haven't said either "SED will blow away (currently available display technology of choice)," or, "SED will be no better than (currently available display technology of choice)," and (b) my proposed rule hasn't been put in place yet. :) :) :) :)

Well, I have seen SED in person...went to both the Tosh and Canon SED shows at CES 2006. And, I was absolutely astonished by the picture quality. Blacks were not just dark, they were OFF...there was literally no light coming out of the screen in black areas (and this in a very dark room). Colors were extremely punchy and bright...the contrast was intense. Contrasting edges were razor sharp. Color gradients were smooth and natural, skins tones were spot on, there was no hint of pixelation or pixel edge stairstepping. The phosphor reaction time demo was impressive...a fast scrolling line of high-contrast text zooming across the screen showed absolutely zero ghosting, just razor sharp edges moving at very high speed horizontally across the screen.

In short...this was the display that dreams are made of. I could find no fault, except I think I detected at least 1 dead pixel, and the demo screens were small (36" if memory serves).

This is not to say that SED doesn't have risks...we have really no idea what the manufacturability or longevity is, and in fact the well-publicized delays do not bode well for manufacturability. But if those problem can be solved at reasonable cost, SED could be a really, really Big Thing. It's exciting, at the least.

I can't attend CES 07 but I'd encourage anyone who might be attending to seek out the Tosh & Canon shows and take a look for themselves.

So where can I get one of those fancy SED TVs Clark (http://www.reelwavs.com/movies/christmas_vacation/)?

Well, I have seen SED in person...went to both the Tosh and Canon SED shows at CES 2006. And, I was absolutely astonished by the picture quality. Blacks were not just dark, they were OFF...there was literally no light coming out of the screen in black areas (and this in a very dark room). Colors were extremely punchy and bright...the contrast was intense. Contrasting edges were razor sharp. Color gradients were smooth and natural, skins tones were spot on, there was no hint of pixelation or pixel edge stairstepping. The phosphor reaction time demo was impressive...a fast scrolling line of high-contrast text zooming across the screen showed absolutely zero ghosting, just razor sharp edges moving at very high speed horizontally across the screen.

In short...this was the display that dreams are made of. I could find no fault, except I think I detected at least 1 dead pixel, and the demo screens were small (36" if memory serves).

This is not to say that SED doesn't have risks...we have really no idea what the manufacturability or longevity is, and in fact the well-publicized delays do not bode well for manufacturability. But if those problem can be solved at reasonable cost, SED could be a really, really Big Thing. It's exciting, at the least.

I can't attend CES 07 but I'd encourage anyone who might be attending to seek out the Tosh & Canon shows and take a look for themselves.

Thanks for the comments. Your observations are in line with practically all reviews given by those who have witnessed the demonstrations. Did you read the recent posts reporting about the 55inch 1080P demonstrations given in Japan. The 36inch display that you saw at the last CES was a 36inch 4X3 720P display. I wish you were able to attend the upcoming CES. It would be nice to have someone like you do a practical report on how the 55inch display actually performs.

Re: Your Irony Tag: I have one definition for you.

Irony is when someone derides another poster for boasting about how great SED is because it is not currently available, and then claims that it will have trouble competing against those 20,000 to one contrast Plasmas. You know, those Plasmas that are also not yet available!. :)

So where can I get one of those fancy SED TVs Clark (http://www.reelwavs.com/movies/christmas_vacation/)?

You called? :D

Got mine(Panny 65" Pro 1080p), but will be waiting for SED............ a 70-75" SED! ;)
Whenever they come....if they actually do, but the tech is superior and someday, somehow, somewhere they just may, might, could actually be real.

In short...this was the display that dreams are made of. I could find no fault, except I think I detected at least 1 dead pixel, and the demo screens were small (36" if memory serves).
OK, that was what I was afraid of. And I wonder if it's going to be as bad as with LCD... You'd think that for demos, they'd pick units with zero dead pixels.

And I hope that SED doesn't accumulate bad pixels over time, but I don't expect it will.


The phosphor reaction time demo was impressive...a fast scrolling line of high-contrast text zooming across the screen showed absolutely zero ghosting, just razor sharp edges moving at very high speed horizontally across the screen.
Did they compare this against plasma and LCD?

I would not get too focused on the pixel problem on the model he saw. That was a year ago and they had not yet established the individual pixel actuator fix that they are now using on the 55inch 1080P displays. When they showed the 36inch 4X3 720P display at the last CES, they were hoping to use Canon Inkjet technology in the manufacturing process. They since found that they were not able to do so, and have developed some alternative manufacturing process. From what was reported about the the 1080P 55inch demo in Japan, they did not explain what new production methods and procedures have been adopted, so we will have to wait and see if the failed pixel problem has been solved.

Sometime between 2008 and the extinction of the Earth. ;)

The extinction of the Earth comes much more sooner than SED. :D

You called? :D

Got mine(Panny 65" Pro 1080p), but will be waiting for SED............ a 70-75" SED! ;)
Whenever they come....if they actually do, but the tech is superior and someday, somehow, somewhere they just may, might, could actually be real.

So you bought a Panny anyway, even against all of my admonitions. :rolleyes:

So where can I get one of those fancy SED TVs Clark (http://www.reelwavs.com/movies/christmas_vacation/)?

At Magnolia Hi-Fi and Tweeter around 2008. :D

OK, that was what I was afraid of. And I wonder if it's going to be as bad as with LCD... You'd think that for demos, they'd pick units with zero dead pixels.At the time, these were some of the only SED panels in existence on the planet. They were very hand-crafted, limited-production-run types of things at that point. Not much to "pick" from, really. We don't know if dead pixels will apply to mass production panels...I mentioned it only in the interest of honesty and full disclosure.
Did they compare this against plasma and LCD?Nope. It's a good idea, though. LCD ghosting is a well-known phenomenon, albeit improving with time. Shouldn't be too hard to show a side-by-side difference here.

That amount of investment is somewhat akin to the tea budget for meetings held in the main conference room. Sounds like trying to throw some money toward a product that will be another Sony proprietary spec that can do battle with everyone else in the market place that will produce the Canon/Toshiba spec SED! :D
Indeed, history repeating itself (in the making). Sony's top executives can't help themselvs, their ego and arrogance are most annoying.

Very true TNG, but one big correction...Sony has NEVER left FED. Sony R&D has been working hard on FED from the getgo, and I expect their research labs will introduce another version of FED ( remember that SED is a version of FED) in the near future. It's really quite silly to imagine Toshiba/Canon taking over the high tech video market of ANYTHING, much less the lucruative video display market. Take a REAL pill.
In the past 30yrs Sony has had only 2 dominating (and best) mass produced CE products, the Walkman and the Trinitron CRT. They make a wounderful projector in the Ruby, and some say a good LCD (I guess you have to have something in the kitchen) but FED is not where the big bucks will be for Sony, happy to see them go after another winner ! ;)

It's somewhat old news but I just found this out recently. Apparently, China's TCL is working on its version of SED as well. Interesting.

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20061026/122798/

TCL: We are certainly conducting research on our proprietary technology similar to SED, but it is different from Toshiba and Canon's SED. We have not been licensed their technologies, either.

CES 2007 is just around the corner....maybe we can finally find out the MSRP for the 55' SED. SED news has been very slow recently....I can only hope that these babies will be available in the U.S. by the end of 2007. *crossing fingers* :)

CES 2007 is just around the corner....maybe we can finally find out the MSRP for the 55' SED. SED news has been very slow recently....I can only hope that these babies will be available in the U.S. by the end of 2007. *crossing fingers* :)


If we are lucky we might hear prices around 5-6k for the 55 inchers and a U.S. release date of 12/2007. :) Keep hope alive!!

In the past 30yrs Sony has had only 2 dominating (and best) mass produced CE products, the Walkman and the Trinitron CRT. They make a wounderful projector in the Ruby, and some say a good LCD (I guess you have to have something in the kitchen) but FED is not where the big bucks will be for Sony, happy to see them go after another winner ! ;)

I think you need to seriously bone up and do your homework in the the video tech world. For starters, Sony Broadcast & Professional division has been and still are the leaders. Walk into any video broadcasting booth or major studio and you'll find out just who cuts the mustard.

Secondly, as for consumer electronics, Sony is the at the top of the list in Home Theater Projectors, RPTV's (SXRD), LCD's, and let's not forget their infamous TUBE that's remains the best ever built. What's left out?....hmmm, Plasma?

Sounds to me like you're a card carrying member of the "Sony Haters Club". Come back w/some real facts next time around.

I think you need to seriously bone up and do your homework in the the video tech world. For starters, Sony Broadcast & Professional division has been and still are the leaders. Walk into any video broadcasting booth or major studio and you'll find out just who cuts the mustard.

Secondly, as for consumer electronics, Sony is the at the top of the list in Home Theater Projectors, RPTV's (SXRD), LCD's, and let's not forget their infamous TUBE that's remains the best ever built. What's left out?....hmmm, Plasma?

Sounds to me like you're a card carrying member of the "Sony Haters Club". Come back w/some real facts next time around.

??? Bone up? facts? Please read more carefully. I specifically said CE (Consumer Electronics) in my post. I praised their CRT tube (owned 2 different XRBs and also praised the current Ruby projector and their LCD (if you like that type of display). Never did I say anything about their broadcast and professional equipment.... as I own a Sony DCR-VX2100 camcorder, a PCM-R700 DAT deck and a TCD-D10 pro (portable DAT).

Matter of fact I'd like nothing more if the professional division exec. and engineers took over their "CE" division and have them stop making junk and forcing upon me "CE" standards that never live up to their hype.

GmanAVS, sorry I misunderstood you, and apologize for my mistake. Enough OT, let's now get back to SED News & Tech.

i skiped out on the 13 pages but i skined a bit some of you guys are still here from pg 1 , anyways could this be true?

i dont know if theirs a newer date but read here


Quote:
In October 2006, Toshiba's president announced the company plans to begin full production of 55" SED TVs in July 2007



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SED_TV_display

i consider wiki a very useful link

If we are lucky we might hear prices around 5-6k for the 55 inchers and a U.S. release date of 12/2007. Keep hope alive!! if this is true then consider me one of the first purchases lol cuz a elite cuz 8-10 k !!

btw what impact news did i miss out on ? or what else is new ? cuz i dont see any new info

I just read this whole thread and I have a headache.

Although it can be fun to speculate and anticipate, why don't we just all enjoy the best viewing experience we can each afford today and not put off purchases for promises of something better someday. You could drop dead tomorrow (as someone I know just did last week at 39, in perfect health the week before).

SED is futureware. Did you all know there is an even better technology than SED coming out in 2009? Will blow the socks off SED at 1/2 the price point!

(just kidding but you catch my drift, don't you?)

The more SED promises that are made, the greater the chance of disappointment.
What will SED do with source content? Isn't this the biggest problem we all have? ;)
I have nothing against a tech that has the possiblity of beating plasma.

I have my reservations about SED, besides my opinion of it being vaporware. Since its based on CRT, won't it still have CRT flaws? Such as: convergence problems( both lcd and plasma have none), non-uniform aging(with multiple CRT guns, won't that be magnified?), CRTs trace( aren't just turning a pixel on and off like LCD, so won't that cause barrel distortions and possible tearing?), and CRTs have "floating contrast" DC restoration issues.

Both LCD and plasma address some of these problems, while adding other problems of their own. So why such a fuss over SED? If its CRT based, won't it still inherit all those other flaws?

Another issue, I used to be a fan of DLP, until I saw how lousy it handled shadow detail. Even though the DLP looked blacker than LCD and plasma, when viewing low key material with many gradient changes, the detail was lost. What does it matter if a black looks just as black as real life at that kind of cost? I had to return my DLP several months ago. I was watching Law and Order. This show is very low key, and dull colors. This show looked horrible, even on a CRT which I hate, looked better. A sports jacket that was black, sure it was a pretty black, but I couldn't see his pocket nor collar, etc.

DLP, plasma and LCD can each be given material that they shine with. They can all beat CRT with those particular images, but if you give them very low key and torture tests that have very dark with very bright on the same screen, both will fail compared to CRT, while at the same time, the others will make you go, "wow thats the best image I've ever seen!", like I said depending on what you're viewing.
Toshiba/Canon aren't going to show scenes like that to show off their "godly" tv. When you give it some real torture tests, is it only going to look PRETTY with certain material like how DLP does?

I have my reservations about SED, besides my opinion of it being vaporware. Since its based on CRT, won't it still have CRT flaws? Such as: convergence problems( both lcd and plasma have none), non-uniform aging(with multiple CRT guns, won't that be magnified?), CRTs trace....

No convergence problems with SED as it is pixel-control based.

One may suspect the main problem of SED can be pixel light output stability and death. This is because the distance between the pixel electrodes which produce light is in the nanometer range. Mass-producing displays with
such precision is toll order and may eventually kill SED technology.

No convergence problems with SED as it is pixel-control based.

One may suspect the main problem of SED can be pixel light output stability and death. This is because the distance between the pixel electrodes which produce light is in the nanometer range. Mass-producing displays with
such precision is toll order and may eventually kill SED technology.A very interesting observation, which provides further incentive to skip perhaps, the first two or three generations of SED TVs until a base MTBF is established. The uncertainties associated with SED also provides further incentive to consider upgrading to 1080p PDP platforms rather then wait indefinitely for a display technology that may never achieve fruition.

Of course 1080p PDPs have their share of technical hurdles to overcome too:

"the Pro-FHD1 will not be equipped with any sort of tuning capability--it's simply a monitor... Pioneer's rep explained that tuners were omitted from the first-generation version... to reduce interference that may result from having RF circuitry inside the panel itself" (http://www.cnet.com/4331-11405_1-6412639.html?tag=all)

A very interesting observation, which provides further incentive to skip perhaps, the first two or three generations of SED TVs until a base MTBF is established. The uncertainties associated with SED also provides further incentive to consider upgrading to 1080p PDP platforms rather then wait indefinitely for a display technology that may never achieve fruition.

Of course 1080p PDPs have their share of technical hurdles to overcome too:

"the Pro-FHD1 will not be equipped with any sort of tuning capability--it's simply a monitor... Pioneer's rep explained that tuners were omitted from the first-generation version... to reduce interference that may result from having RF circuitry inside the panel itself" (http://www.cnet.com/4331-11405_1-6412639.html?tag=all)


You must be kidding right? Please don't make judgment about SED based on speculation and or unsubstaniated claims.

When SED comes out, as I be saying all along, it will be the genesis to the end of the PDP era as we know it. SED technology is flat out superior to PDP in each and everyway, period. Why would you want to go back to PDP when SED arrives.

Pioneer would be wise to do everything they can to get Toshia/Canon to license their technology out to them and hurry before its too late. Pioneer's failure to do so will result in them not even being a player in the future of display technology.

The more SED promises that are made, the greater the chance of disappointment.
What will SED do with source content? Isn't this the biggest problem we all have? ;)
I have nothing against a tech that has the possiblity of beating plasma.

SED is going to beat PDP into the ground. Those who have witnessed SED have already reached that conclusion. Again, SED is superior to Plasma in everyway and I mean everyway.

The very fact that you can make SED displays small enough to fit on a cell phone and large enough to be placed in sports arenas is one aspect that makes SED superior to plasma. SED technology is the future, everything else have served as a stop gap measure until this technology was able to be produced. SED is what video experts, video engineers, professionals and videophiles worldwide have been waiting for.

SED is going to beat PDP into the ground. Those who have witnessed SED have already reached that conclusion. Again, SED is superior to Plasma in everyway and I mean everyway.

The very fact that you can make SED displays small enough to fit on a cell phone and large enough to be placed in sports arenas is one aspect that makes SED superior to plasma.

In everyway!? It has certainly not been demonstrated that SED will be price competitive with PDP (or even LCD for that matter). And I've not seen anything that indicates that SED technology is suitable for small format displays, where they will have to compete with OLED.

I hope it's all that you believe it will be, but I'm not betting on it.

SED is going to beat PDP into the ground. Those who have witnessed SED have already reached that conclusion. Again, SED is superior to Plasma in everyway and I mean everyway.

The very fact that you can make SED displays small enough to fit on a cell phone and large enough to be placed in sports arenas is one aspect that makes SED superior to plasma. SED technology is the future, everything else have served as a stop gap measure until this technology was able to be produced. SED is what video experts, video engineers, professionals and videophiles worldwide have been waiting for.

If this were true, than SED would be in production. People were paying $15K-$20K a few years ago for top of the line PDPs that weren't as good as todays best units. Now look at the price. The fact that Pioneer can still charge $8K for it's top 50" PDP (which by your inference is inferior to SED) and SED can't even get into production at that price does not necessarily bode well for a near-term mass release. I saw the demo at CES and yes, it's very good, but not a quantum leap over the best PDPs. And you are assuming that PDP and LCD will not improve to the point where they are close to SED. 1 year is a long time in electronics and it doesn't look good for SED in that time frame. It's one thing to make a unique show demo and another thing to get it into mass production and make a buck.

SED is going to beat PDP into the ground. Those who have witnessed SED have already reached that conclusion. Again, SED is superior to Plasma in everyway and I mean everyway.

Just as others have questioned, why is it taking so long to get to market?
Why is it being pushed back more and more?
Oh, SED sounds great and it does talk the talk but does it walk the walk?
Will it ever become easy or cheap enough to compete?
We all know these are mass market companies and they don't have a Pioneer mentality. They want it cheap and they want it in volume.
What will the QC be like? A prototype is a whole different animal and to judge all SED products from the prototype is risky.
Well, when 2007 (or 2008, now yes?) is over....let me know if SED is out because I don't think many will really notice with the products that will actually be out and perfected. :cool:

When SED comes out, as I be saying all along, it will be the genesis to the end of the PDP era as we know it. SED technology is flat out superior to PDP in each and everyway, period. Why would you want to go back to PDP when SED arrives.



You just never seem to grasp the fact that by the time SED is out in any significant way, 20,000:1 CR plasmas will be here. That will make SED a moot technology. However the big difference is that plasma is a far far more mature technology whereas SED will be new and unproven. With that goes many unknowns and uncertainties. Oh, and the 20,000:1 Pioneer was observed side by side with SED and was found to be its equal. So it will not 'beat in to the ground" plasma technology. Me thinks you live in a dream world. I hope your investments are more diversified Auditor. ;)

Just as others have questioned, why is it taking so long to get to market?
Why is it being pushed back more and more?


These are heavily guarded secrets but one can gets alarm bell ringing when reading about nanogaps which are key to SED technology.

Nanogaps are patterns of few nanometer width which have to be made precisely in large quantities over large areas for SED displays to work.

http://www.canon.com/technology/canon_tech/explanation/sed.html

The most advanced semiconductor chips at present use 65 nm pattern resolution. In 2008 they are going to move to 45 nm. All this is possible with gigantic R&D and manfacturing facilities costs. These costs can be covered because of colossal demand for the chips.

Now everybody recognizes that 65 nm is quite far from "few" nanometers required by SED.
In addition to this, semi chips for functioning need small area, so even if they are produced on large wafers those which do not work can be eliminated but the overall process is economical.

SED needs to have nanometer patterns distributed over very large areas.

For comparison the LCD displays also require semiconductor patterns distributed over large areas. But the patterns have huge size comparing to SED.

Thus, what SED is aiming for is to make patterns which are smaller than currently available. SED technologists think about making them using inkjet like devices. But this is tough order.

You just never seem to grasp the fact that by the time SED is out in any significant way, 20,000:1 CR plasmas will be here. That will make SED a moot technology.
I feel like going in circles. <sigh>

No, Ken, black level is not the only advantage SED has.

You must be kidding right? Please don't make judgment about SED based on speculation and or unsubstaniated claims.

When SED comes out, as I be saying all along, it will be the genesis to the end of the PDP era as we know it. SED technology is flat out superior to PDP in each and everyway, period. Why would you want to go back to PDP when SED arrives.

Pioneer would be wise to do everything they can to get Toshia/Canon to license their technology out to them and hurry before its too late. Pioneer's failure to do so will result in them not even being a player in the future of display technology.

Aaaand... Toshiba/Canon should liscence Pioneer's design ideas because having a Gundam for a TV is not part of my plans. I love big anime robots as the next guy, but those designs suck.

Am I the only one who thinks those prototype SEDs look hideous in bright lights?

Those kickass black levels aren't as kickass with the lights are on. Please, redesign those things when they get cheaper. I have yet to see any Toshiba Television that wowed me during the daytime, where I spend alot of my viewing

Sunday Football anyone?

I know some people like the design... and as much as I stare skewed at them it doesn't matter. Anyway, SED will be great and will likely be the TV of choice... THAT IS when other brands such as Pioneer pick up the tech. ;)

These are heavily guarded secrets but one can gets alarm bell ringing when reading about nanogaps which are key to SED technology.

Nanogaps are patterns of few nanometer width which have to be made precisely in large quantities over large areas for SED displays to work.

http://www.canon.com/technology/canon_tech/explanation/sed.html

The most advanced semiconductor chips at present use 65 nm pattern resolution. In 2008 they are going to move to 45 nm. All this is possible with gigantic R&D and manfacturing facilities costs. These costs can be covered because of colossal demand for the chips.

Now everybody recognizes that 65 nm is quite far from "few" nanometers required by SED.
In addition to this, semi chips for functioning need small area, so even if they are produced on large wafers those which do not work can be eliminated but the overall process is economical.

SED needs to have nanometer patterns distributed over very large areas.

For comparison the LCD displays also require semiconductor patterns distributed over large areas. But the patterns have huge size comparing to SED.

Thus, what SED is aiming for is to make patterns which are smaller than currently available. SED technologists think about making them using inkjet like devices. But this is tough order.

SED makes the nanogaps thusly:

http://neasia.nikkeibp.com/neasia/002048

Applying palladium via inkjet and then using voltage and hydrogen or methane gas to create the nanogaps.

Uniformly.

That has to be brutally difficult.

No photolithography method, as irkuck pointed out, is even close to achieving resolutions of a few nanometers.

To me, that is the biggest IF in the technology. Doing it cheaply, reproducibly, and uniformly.

GOD WILLS IT !!

These are heavily guarded secrets but one can gets alarm bell ringing when reading about nanogaps which are key to SED technology.

Nanogaps are patterns of few nanometer width which have to be made precisely in large quantities over large areas for SED displays to work.

http://www.canon.com/technology/canon_tech/explanation/sed.html

The most advanced semiconductor chips at present use 65 nm pattern resolution. In 2008 they are going to move to 45 nm. All this is possible with gigantic R&D and manfacturing facilities costs. These costs can be covered because of colossal demand for the chips.

Now everybody recognizes that 65 nm is quite far from "few" nanometers required by SED.
In addition to this, semi chips for functioning need small area, so even if they are produced on large wafers those which do not work can be eliminated but the overall process is economical.

SED needs to have nanometer patterns distributed over very large areas.

For comparison the LCD displays also require semiconductor patterns distributed over large areas. But the patterns have huge size comparing to SED.

Thus, what SED is aiming for is to make patterns which are smaller than currently available. SED technologists think about making them using inkjet like devices. But this is tough order.

Putting aside all of the technobable being spewed out here, I have one question for you. Based upon your above post, are you willing to go record here and say that, contrary to Toshiba/Canon recent annoucements, that we won't SED introuced to the consumer market by 2008?

The answer to that question is really what its all about and not breaking down what Toshiba/Canon can and cannot do in regards to SED.

You just never seem to grasp the fact that by the time SED is out in any significant way, 20,000:1 CR plasmas will be here. That will make SED a moot technology. However the big difference is that plasma is a far far more mature technology whereas SED will be new and unproven. With that goes many unknowns and uncertainties. Oh, and the 20,000:1 Pioneer was observed side by side with SED and was found to be its equal. So it will not 'beat in to the ground" plasma technology. Me thinks you live in a dream world. I hope your investments are more diversified Auditor. ;)

There's only one company I know of that will be introducing a 20,000-1 PDP and that's Pioneer and even that's scheduled to arrive about the same time as SED.

Looking at Pioneer's history of over charging customers for their displays (e.g. ten thousand dollar 50 inch 1080p monitor) I will guestimate that Pioneers new 60 inch 20,000-1 PDP will at come in at about $20,000.

Now considering the fact that SED display technology is superior than PDP in every single aspect of display technology why would anyone want a Plasma set beyond 2008?

The 2007 CES is upon watch and see what happens when people get a chance to view a 100,000-1 CR display, SED is going to steal the show.

Yea but who wants to wait that long and only get a 55in. If they had 60-65 models then i would wait. And regardless it will be a TOSHIBA afterall. Nothing to rave about as far as their know how.

If this were true, than SED would be in production. People were paying $15K-$20K a few years ago for top of the line PDPs that weren't as good as todays best units. Now look at the price. The fact that Pioneer can still charge $8K for it's top 50" PDP (which by your inference is inferior to SED) and SED can't even get into production at that price does not necessarily bode well for a near-term mass release. I saw the demo at CES and yes, it's very good, but not a quantum leap over the best PDPs. And you are assuming that PDP and LCD will not improve to the point where they are close to SED. 1 year is a long time in electronics and it doesn't look good for SED in that time frame. It's one thing to make a unique show demo and another thing to get it into mass production and make a buck.

Unless you went to Japan, I don't think anyone in the US has seen the latest SED creation, the 55 incnh 100,000-1 set. I'm hoping that is what they bring to the CES. So far the comments coming from those demonstrations have been out of this world, comments such as " Looking at SED is like watching HDTV for the first time all over again".

As far as Plasma goes, I think that technology has reached its peak, they might able to make some very subtle improvements with PDP, but for the most part its has zenithed.

LCD has more room to improve especially with black levels.

btw, I have you noticed all these display manufacturers rushing to get out new display with greater contrast ratio numbers? They know what's coming. Many of these manufacturers were dragging their feet on improving black levels, now since Toshiba/Canon recent annoucements about SED they are trying to get better in black level department.

SED is 100,000-1 and nothing else is even close.

How was this contrast number derived at, is it dynamic or staitic and how does it compare to say a Sony xbr960 if tested then same way?
Anyway even for dynamic contrast, that has to be one of the best going, should give even inkier blacks and detail in dark areas then my direct view set.
But oh the wait. 2006-2007-2008.
I hope they eventually make smaller sets around 37-46". and computer monitors.

Toshiba tube tv's have great black levels. And thats about it. :(

Unless you went to Japan, I don't think anyone in the US has seen the latest SED creation, the 55 incnh 100,000-1 set. I'm hoping that is what they bring to the CES. So far the comments coming from those demonstrations have been out of this world, comments such as " Looking at SED is like watching HDTV for the first time all over again".

As far as Plasma goes, I think that technology has reached its peak, they might able to make some very subtle improvements with PDP, but for the most part its has zenithed.

LCD has more room to improve especially with black levels.

btw, I have you noticed all these display manufacturers rushing to get out new display with greater contrast ratio numbers? They know what's coming. Many of these manufacturers were dragging their feet on improving black levels, now since Toshiba/Canon recent annoucements about SED they are trying to get better in black level department.

You can include yourself in that group. In fact, you have not even personally seen the handbuilt 37" SED prototypes being lugged around to the various consumer electronics shows these past 2 years to even provide a "eyes on" opinion. Basically, your grandoise wide sweeping fanboy remarks are based entirely upon Canon/Toshiba press releases, springled in w/a few off the cuff "what if" reviews from those few people that actually did see the 15 minute demo in pitch black rooms at the CE Shows. What is lacking is no real facts, just wild speculation. Something I'm not keen on in the least.

As for Plasma video tech having reached its zenith, how would you know? From where I'm sitting, Plasma Tech seems to be doing very well indeed. Only a few months ago, the very first 1080p Plasma displays have reached the stores, and next year there will be many new models scheduled for release from Mfg'ers that actually do deliver a production line display close to their previous announcements. As 1080p models proliferate the market, priceing will fall dramatically, all the while as PQ & contrast levels get better & better. I'm not here to paint a rosey picture, but this seems to be in the cards for upcoming Plasma Displays. Too bad I can't say the same about SED

I want a 15" SED to replace my aging 13" crt. Is 4th qtr. 2007 possible or more likely 4th qtr. 2008?

Whats with all the bickering in this thread? Grow up! This thread is to inform on the status and developments of SED tech. This thread has grown into a Plasma vs. SED thread and SED isn't even close to coming out yet! Most projections have it coming out sometime in 2008 in time for the Beijing Olympics. Also, 90% of this thread is dealing with useless what if scenerios. What if it costs this much, what if it has burn in, etc. Im really excited about SED and I hope it comes out eventually at a reasonable price. CES is less then 3 weeks away and if we don't get any solid answers at this years CES, then it will be pretty obvious that SED is DOA. Anyway, I think it would be better to just focus on the facts, news, press realeases, etc then starting a pointless SED vs. Plasma thread that will be locked for imature behavior.

As far as Plasma goes, I think that technology has reached its peak, they might able to make some very subtle improvements with PDP, but for the most part its has zenithed.

LCD has more room to improve especially with black levels.
.


Hey Nostradamus, really, PDP has reached its peak - how do you know? Did CRTs reach their peak in the sixties?

Personally, I hope all these manufacuters and technologies stick around. Thus far, there is no one all size fits all all perfect technology. Having choices is to our benefit.

To think that Pioneer and Panasonic are going to fold up the tent and go away is to not understand how capitalism works. I hope and expect that PDP and LCD manufacturers will respond with improved TVs at better prices when SED comes out. That's the usual result of competition anyway.

I will agree in one respect however, every change, yes even SED will be subtle and incremental compared to the leap that was taken from SD to HDTV.

I imagine that getting a super bright image may be the initial challenge with SED but having read how the technology works it seems very likely that it could be the best TV technology for quite awhile. Also, I hate to even compare Plasma to SED or CRT, as I realize that is not the intent of this thread, though I cannot help to mention that my Panasonic TH-42PX6U, supposedly one of the best plasmas as far as black levels are concerned is NOWHERE near CRT black levels, I hear many people state how close to CRT the Panasonic plasmas are (and they probably are the closest) but they are still quite far from CRT; I am not sure what they can do with plasma, I mean, you cannot turn off the pixels otherwise the response time for each pixel would be too slow. In other words I am still not that happy with black levels of any of the current technology and I am really looking forward to SED to remedy this.

There's only one company I know of that will be introducing a 20,000-1 PDP and that's Pioneer and even that's scheduled to arrive about the same time as SED.

Well since Panasonic shares the patents that make those CRs possible, do you really expect Panasonic to sit back and let Pioneer run away with it? I don't think so.


Looking at Pioneer's history of over charging customers for their displays (e.g. ten thousand dollar 50 inch 1080p monitor) I will guestimate that Pioneers new 60 inch 20,000-1 PDP will at come in at about $20,000.

People have payed the price gladly in the past for a picture that will not be as good as the 20,000:1 will be. So they will continue to sell many of these plasmas at whatever price they ask. Additionally, since it's only logical to assume Panasonic will be there too, you know as well as everyone else here, Panasonic does not "overcharge" for their products. :)

Now considering the fact that SED display technology is superior than PDP in every single aspect of display technology why would anyone want a Plasma set beyond 2008?

You mean like burn-in resistance? No. You mean like unit lifetime? No. You mean like color accuracy? No. The fact is that many of the important picture quality aspects that make for a great picture are unknown in the actual production SED units (whenever, if ever that happens), it is utterly foolish to make a claim as you did about SED being 'superior to PDP in every single aspect of display technology'. You are simply wrong.

btw, I have you noticed all these display manufacturers rushing to get out new display with greater contrast ratio numbers? They know what's coming.

Um, this march toward greater CR has been going on for years, well before SED was ever announced. But you insist in living in your dream world, so enjoy.

You might also consider that the Pioneer with 20,000:1 CR was not a 'subtle' improvement over the current PQ of today's plasmas. Going from 768p to 1080p is also not 'subtle' in many people's mind. As I stated previously, the reviewer said quite clearly it was the equal of SEDs. Subtle? I guess we've dropped back in to your dream world. So the real question is why would anyone buy an unproven technology like SED when the upcoming plasmas will offer the same PQ with a proven and reliable technology? ;)

sorry reio-ta but i hvae to quote you on this why? because crt tube is best technology right now in terms of pq even if its crt based how does that make it vaperware? crt hardly has any issues ex i have mine for the past 4+yrs no burn in s daily useage 10+ hrs hell sometimes even almost all day . any tech tv had issues look at pdp /lcd had soo many issues and to day it still does ( lcd not havving blacks as good as pdp! motion blurr and i can go on , pdp also has issues andy like any tech both are inproving but THEY WILL REACH THEIR LIMITS why fuss over sed? simple CRT TUBE = BEST QUALITY people complaining of big bulky tvs FLAT TV was introduced with a sacrifse of picture quality = SEDTV best from both worlds :eek: brightside tech failed right before even started sed tv has not because we are looking within july of 07 to max 08 thats around the corner!! and again how does pdp/lcd beat crt tube?????? LMAO it cannt lcd has blacks issues is that compareable to crt ? HELL NO but if you think lcd/pdp beats crt thats up to you :rolleyes: heck why you so mad on a sucessufull technology? cant afford it ???? :confused: and my answer is like anyting else first ALL tech is expensive but evetaully everyone will be able to afford it , the only diffrense that sed is goign to start on a decent price!!! :D i remember the first pos plasma that was intensely expensive and if it was still avabile today it wouldnt be worth 500 bucks!!!
I have my reservations about SED, besides my opinion of it being vaporware. Since its based on CRT, won't it still have CRT flaws? Such as: convergence problems( both lcd and plasma have none), non-uniform aging(with multiple CRT guns, won't that be magnified?), CRTs trace( aren't just turning a pixel on and off like LCD, so won't that cause barrel distortions and possible tearing?), and CRTs have "floating contrast" DC restoration issues.
Both LCD and plasma address some of these problems, while adding other problems of their own. So why such a fuss over SED? If its CRT based, won't it still inherit all those other flaws?
Another issue, I used to be a fan of DLP, until I saw how lousy it handled shadow detail. Even though the DLP looked blacker than LCD and plasma, when viewing low key material with many gradient changes, the detail was lost. What does it matter if a black looks just as black as real life at that kind of cost? I had to return my DLP several months ago. I was watching Law and Order. This show is very low key, and dull colors. This show looked horrible, even on a CRT which I hate, looked better. A sports jacket that was black, sure it was a pretty black, but I couldn't see his pocket nor collar, etc.
DLP, plasma and LCD can each be given material that they shine with. They can all beat CRT with those particular images, but if you give them very low key and torture tests that have very dark with very bright on the same screen, both will fail compared to CRT, while at the same time, the others will make you go, "wow thats the best image I've ever seen!", like I said depending on what you're viewing.
Toshiba/Canon aren't going to show scenes like that to show off their "godly" tv. When you give it some real torture tests, is it only going to look PRETTY with certain material like how DLP does?
irkuck it wont and if it does like any other tech sed will inprove and if they knew this would be an issue they wont even start the technology!
No convergence problems with SED as it is pixel-control based.
One may suspect the main problem of SED can be pixel light output stability and death. This is because the distance between the pixel electrodes which produce light is in the nanometer range. Mass-producing displays with
such precision is toll order and may eventually kill SED technology.

20,000:1 BOY??????? HAHAHAHA TRY SED 1 HUNDRED THOUSAND TO ONE !!! :eek: I THINK your mid judging the tech big time !!! SERIOUSLy its 100 thousand to one !
You just never seem to grasp the fact that by the time SED is out in any significant way, 20,000:1 CR plasmas will be here. That will make SED a moot technology. However the big difference is that plasma is a far far more mature technology whereas SED will be new and unproven. With that goes many unknowns and uncertainties. Oh, and the 20,000:1 Pioneer was observed side by side with SED and was found to be its equal. So it will not 'beat in to the ground" plasma technology. Me thinks you live in a dream world. I hope your investments are more diversified Auditor.
coudnlt said it better Auditor55 DONT FORGET its 100 thousand to 1 on sed :p

There's only one company I know of that will be introducing a 20,000-1 PDP and that's Pioneer and even that's scheduled to arrive about the same time as SED.
Looking at Pioneer's history of over charging customers for their displays (e.g. ten thousand dollar 50 inch 1080p monitor) I will guestimate that Pioneers new 60 inch 20,000-1 PDP will at come in at about $20,000.
Now considering the fact that SED display technology is superior than PDP in every single aspect of display technology why would anyone want a Plasma set beyond 2008?
The 2007 CES is upon watch and see what happens when people get a chance to view a 100,000-1 CR display, SED is going to steal the show.
gary cornell they wont be any smaller tvs then 55'' for sed we'll see what happens in the future ,
I want a 15" SED to replace my aging 13" crt. Is 4th qtr. 2007 possible or more likely 4th qtr. 2008?

fianlly my apologies with the SUPER long thread but i must argree with conan48
Whats with all the bickering in this thread? Grow up! This thread is to inform on the status and developments of SED tech. This thread has grown into a Plasma vs. SED thread and SED isn't even close to coming out yet! Most projections have it coming out sometime in 2008 in time for the Beijing Olympics. Also, 90% of this thread is dealing with useless what if scenerios. What if it costs this much, what if it has burn in, etc. Im really excited about SED and I hope it comes out eventually at a reasonable price. CES is less then 3 weeks away and if we don't get any solid answers at this years CES, then it will be pretty obvious that SED is DOA. Anyway, I think it would be better to just focus on the facts, news, press realeases, etc then starting a pointless SED vs. Plasma thread that will be locked for imature behavior.

Auditor55 you are so right i wonder why has their been bitch complains since they know sed will be sucessful :D
You must be kidding right? Please don't make judgment about SED based on speculation and or unsubstaniated claims.
When SED comes out, as I be saying all along, it will be the genesis to the end of the PDP era as we know it. SED technology is flat out superior to PDP in each and everyway, period. Why would you want to go back to PDP when SED arrives.
Pioneer would be wise to do everything they can to get Toshia/Canon to license their technology out to them and hurry before its too late. Pioneer's failure to do so will result in them not even being a player in the future of display technology.
SED is going to beat PDP into the ground. Those who have witnessed SED have already reached that conclusion. Again, SED is superior to Plasma in everyway and I mean everyway.
The very fact that you can make SED displays small enough to fit on a cell phone and large enough to be placed in sports arenas is one aspect that makes SED superior to plasma. SED technology is the future, everything else have served as a stop gap measure until this technology was able to be produced. SED is what video experts, video engineers, professionals and videophiles worldwide have been waiting for. sed can be used on small cellphone devices and such but since oled failed to be for tv due to its blues havving issues they decided to use it on smaller techonogy
slb yes in EVERY WAY why? because its already forcing out many companies to do a price reduction thats 1 , 2 would you buy a 8k elite when you can get an sed tv? i dont think so
and sed tv IS TARGET to meet with current size tv price so its going to be competive right from the start , get your facts stright before marching in with an answer as all the answer on are the net you just need to finish your hw. again SED does not have to compare to a less supirior technology such as oled as sed a true dream of begaining size of 55'' full hd 1080P and evetually they i'll make smaller size depending on the market , while oled WILL NOT do tvs due to their blues issues and lasting time so oled decided to do cell phone screens/ipod etc you get the ideal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Auditor55
SED is going to beat PDP into the ground. Those who have witnessed SED have already reached that conclusion. Again, SED is superior to Plasma in everyway and I mean everyway.
The very fact that you can make SED displays small enough to fit on a cell phone and large enough to be placed in sports arenas is one aspect that makes SED superior to plasma.
In everyway!? It has certainly not been demonstrated that SED will be price competitive with PDP (or even LCD for that matter). And I've not seen anything that indicates that SED technology is suitable for small format displays, where they will have to compete with OLED.
I hope it's all that you believe it will be, but I'm not betting on it.
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paulbf1 the demo you saw was 720p 37'' PROTOTYPE remmeber that
sure they can charge 8k hell even 15k bout would people buy elite vs a sed tv? thats your answer ( remeber sed is crt = best pq and it starts at 55'' thats 5 more then pdp ) and look at lcd its been inproved but is still no where near due to the many errors it has because of its technology same goes with pdp they are both ok technology but cannot be supirior vs crt tv pq and sed is a leap from crt to make it even better
If this were true, than SED would be in production. People were paying $15K-$20K a few years ago for top of the line PDPs that weren't as good as todays best units. Now look at the price. The fact that Pioneer can still charge $8K for it's top 50" PDP (which by your inference is inferior to SED) and SED can't even get into production at that price does not necessarily bode well for a near-term mass release. I saw the demo at CES and yes, it's very good, but not a quantum leap over the best PDPs. And you are assuming that PDP and LCD will not improve to the point where they are close to SED. 1 year is a long time in electronics and it doesn't look good for SED in that time frame. It's one thing to make a unique show demo and another thing to get it into mass production and make a buck.
Elemental1 its was pushed back into market for many reasons but firstmost to have pdp/lcd and other tech push their prices and forcing them out so it can be a safe landing , 2nd to check for any bugs errors /inprovements so thats this technology can be set right from start on first batch... and yes its been said before it will compete in price and evetually be the new era mass market who knows its been said sed will be launched 75 thousand units per month!!! :eek:
Just as others have questioned, why is it taking so long to get to market?
Why is it being pushed back more and more?
Oh, SED sounds great and it does talk the talk but does it walk the walk?
Will it ever become easy or cheap enough to compete?
We all know these are mass market companies and they don't have a Pioneer mentality. They want it cheap and they want it in volume.
What will the QC be like? A prototype is a whole different animal and to judge all SED products from the prototype is risky.
Well, when 2007 (or 2008, now yes?) is over....let me know if SED is out because I don't think many will really notice with the products that will actually be out and perfected.

20,000:1 BOY??????? HAHAHAHA TRY SED 1 HUNDRED THOUSAND TO ONE !!! :eek: I THINK your mid judging the tech big time !!! SERIOUSLy its 100 thousand to one !



Do you understand what CR is? Do you understand that it's impacted by the darkest reproducible values and the brightest? Did you know that you can substantially improve a given display's CR by not even touching the darkest values? Do you also understand that when a display approaches true black, it's CR approaches infinite? This is why you don't see CRs stated for CRTs, the best do reproduce true black. So we have no idea if the brightness of SEDs will be able to cope with bright ambient lighting despite their 100,000 CRs. Once you understand CRs, you'll see how it doesn't begin to describe the overall picture quality.

Whats with all the bickering in this thread? Grow up! This thread is to inform on the status and developments of SED tech. This thread has grown into a Plasma vs. SED thread and SED isn't even close to coming out yet! Most projections have it coming out sometime in 2008 in time for the Beijing Olympics. Also, 90% of this thread is dealing with useless what if scenerios. What if it costs this much, what if it has burn in, etc. Im really excited about SED and I hope it comes out eventually at a reasonable price. CES is less then 3 weeks away and if we don't get any solid answers at this years CES, then it will be pretty obvious that SED is DOA. Anyway, I think it would be better to just focus on the facts, news, press realeases, etc then starting a pointless SED vs. Plasma thread that will be locked for imature behavior.

This this the SED information thread, but its only that until the Plasma hordes come rolling in to forever inform us why SED is going to fail.

There are many threads related to how great Plasma is, someone can even start a new thread addressing why Plasma is here to stay. I don't see anything wrong with videophiles being enthusiastic about the arrival of SED technology.

Why do folks have to come in here and try to rain on the SED parade.

What is wrong with discussing how great SED is going to be in a Thread that dedicated to SED. I can see if I was going to into a Plasma related thread and bombarding folks with how inferior PDP is in comparison to SED talk.

btw, SED display technology (not the Toshiba sets themselves) is superior to PDP in every way, that's not even debateable. I own a Panny plasma and that I really has a very good picture. I rate it higher than most other displays, but I doubt if it will touch SED when it arrives, we shall see.

SED reminds me of Blueray technology in that it is supposed to be the end all be all in disc technology, yet there were constant production problems, it kept getting pushed back and when it finally came out it was full of bugs and really expensive. Yet throughout that entire time we were being told how amazing it is. SED sounds like it will be awsome, but it's silly to assume it will be equivalent to the second coming of Jesus upon its initial release. Just like with Blueray...we know what it's capable of, but now make it happen. Potential does not equal reality.

SED reminds me of Blueray technology in that it is supposed to be the end all be all in disc technology, yet there were constant production problems, it kept getting pushed back and when it finally came out it was full of bugs and really expensive. Yet throughout that entire time we were being told how amazing it is. SED sounds like it will be awsome, but it's silly to assume it will be equivalent to the second coming of Jesus upon its initial release. Just like with Blueray...we know what it's capable of, but now make it happen. Potential does not equal reality.

The only problem with your analogy is that some videophiles, display technology journalist, video enthusiast and video experts have seen SED in demonstrations and they have left blown away. Eye witness reports, many of which I and others have posted in this thread, have seen SED and have given the testimony that put SED in a new stratosphere in the world of display technology.

Unless you believe everyone is lying or that they all have poor vision, you have to accept that SED is nothing like your Blu-Ray analogy.

There is no magic being performned by Toshiba/Canon, SED is for real.

Um, this march toward greater CR has been going on for years, well before SED was ever announced. But you insist in living in your dream world, so enjoy.

You might also consider that the Pioneer with 20,000:1 CR was not a 'subtle' improvement over the current PQ of today's plasmas. Going from 768p to 1080p is also not 'subtle' in many people's mind. As I stated previously, the reviewer said quite clearly it was the equal of SEDs. Subtle? I guess we've dropped back in to your dream world. So the real question is why would anyone buy an unproven technology like SED when the upcoming plasmas will offer the same PQ with a proven and reliable technology? ;)

I had a vision about you. I predict you will become one of the biggest SED backers in the forum. You fit the profile of a SED owner. :D

SED demonstrations provide no data about how durable or reliable a performer it will be over an extended amount of time. Since Toshiba/Canon has designed some other approach other than the InkJet manufacturing methods, that they were promising at the last CES, and since they have not provided any real explicit description of how their new Actuator manufacturing methods work, we have nothing to inform us about how well, and how reliably the components will perform over a reasonable life expectancy.

Only heavy time usage over the first few years, by a number of early adopters, will provide enough feed back to determine if SED performs well and dependably. The old adage still holds true: The proof of the Pudding is in the Eating, and not in Chewing the String. So stop with all the string chewing and just wait until the Pudding is served. :)

The only problem with your analogy is that some videophiles, display technology journalist, video enthusiast and video experts have seen SED in demonstrations and they have left blown away. Eye witness reports, many of which I and others have posted in this thread, have seen SED and have given the testimony that put SED in a new stratosphere in the world of display technology.

Unless you believe everyone is lying or that they all have poor vision, you have to accept that SED is nothing like your Blu-Ray analogy.

There is no magic being performned by Toshiba/Canon, SED is for real.

That is exactly my point though. You are looking at the end, but not the journey. A demo version does not equal millions hanging on the walls of Best Buys and Circuit Cities. I'm not saying it doesn't look awsome. I know once it's perfected it will be amazing. But none of the SEDphiles seems to want to admit that there may be some problems with the developement of it on a large scale and prefecting the technology for consumers. We saw Blueray demos long before it came out also, yet that didn't stop any delays or bugs. There is a big difference between having 20 engineers building 1 demo unit and having 1 million units being pumped out by robots.

I think the technology is awsome, so don't be offended. I'm just saying it seems silly that because someone saw a nice demo of it that I can assume to have a prefect bugless one that I bought for $1k hanging in my livinig room next spring. As awsome as I expect it to be I totally expect to not see a good quality unit for another 2 years minimum.

SED demonstrations provide no data about how durable or reliable a performer it will be over an extended amount of time. Since Toshiba/Canon has designed some other approach other than the InkJet manufacturing methods, that they were promising at the last CES, and since they have not provided any real explicit description of how their new Actuator manufacturing methods work, we have nothing to inform us about how well, and how reliably the components will perform over a reasonable life expectancy.

Only heavy time usage over the first few years, by a number of early adopters, will provide enough feed back to determine if SED performs well and dependably. The old adage still holds true: The proof of the Pudding is in the Eating, and not in Chewing the String. So stop with all the string chewing and just wait until the Pudding is served. :)


Now your just being silly, greenland. He saw a DEMO of it!!!! does that mean nothing to you? A DEMO!!! It's obviously ready to be marketed and mass produced....just like my Flying Car!

i know my post is long but i would apriciate if you can take your time and read it , on on the last page (14) 2 DIFFRENT replys later btw whats the latest on info? anyone?

btw, SED display technology (not the Toshiba sets themselves) is superior to PDP in every way, that's not even debateable.

OK, I give up, continue with your monologue. You absolutely refuse to see any counterpoints to your blanket statements that can't be substantiated since no SED product exists. I tried, but I realize you reach a point where there's utterly no point in trying to discuss these things. I give up. :rolleyes:

* We don't know how bright these displays will be and whether they will be a viable 'bright ambient room' display like LCDs. Advantage unknown.

* We know they will have reflective screen surfaces just like CRTs and plasmas. No advantage relative to plasmas and disadvantage relative to LCDs.

* We know they are supposed to offer superior blacks relative to plasmas. That's surely a plus. Advantage SEDs.

* We know they will be prone to burn-in just like plasmas, just like CRTs. No advantage relative to plasmas and a disadvantage relative to LCDs.

* We know they will more than likely be more expensive than similarly sized competing technologies. Disadvantage SED.

* We know they will be initially limited in size. For me 55" offers nothing. I currently have a 50" plasma and would never switch for a mere 5". I'm looking for 65"....something more cinematic. Disadvantage SED.

* We have no idea what the reliability or lifetime issues are with SEDs. Potential disadvantage SEDs.

* How about mass production efficencies/inefficiencies? Unknown and concerning.

* All of this assumes that plasmas and other technologies will come to a screeching halt in further development between now and when SEDs become common. A very very foolish assumption when we already know that Pioneer has announced a new breakthough in reduced black levels on plasmas....a patent that is apparently shared with Panasonic. If this pans out, IMO, the major advantage of SED is gone....in an instant!

So you see, this is far far from a black & white issue (sorry for the bad pun). As it stands now, the only advantage I see is that of the superior blacks. Beyond that I simply see nothing to be excited about....certainly not size, certainly not lifespan, certainly not reflections, certainly not burn-in. ;)

Point for point, above...

We don't know anything about anything until the product is available at BB & CC, least of all final brightness. However 450cd/m is a good start.

How do we know that they will have reflective screens? My ProScan has a very effective lithium silicate anti-glare coating.

Superior blacks relative to plasmas today. As plasma cell output rises so does contrast ratio. In plasmas, CRT and SED off is off, and black is realized by dark glass keeping out ambient light. Assuming that off = absolute black, the light output at the emission site is going to determine CR given a particular glass transmisivity. The above mentioned ProScan takes advantage of an INVAR mask to allow for a 55W electron gun to overwhelm the extra dark tube glass to achieve inky blacks while having enough punch to generate the intense color (IMHO) only found in CRTs. LCD's lower CR stems from trying to filter the backlight (ineffectively) towards black.

Burn-in will only be known when BB & CC... Still, the issue mostly arises from the display of static images, like the task bar of a PC, or the graphics running under CNN, or (most importantly for the average user) the black bars to display unstretched 4:3 on a 16:9 monitor. As more content is delivered in widescreen this will become less of an issue. Yet I think a better solution lies with the manufacturers. What if they made the black bars a dynamic gradient grey bar? As image ramps up so does the grey, which also dims towards the edges. This would provide two functions. One, it would 'burn' the bar area to approximate the standard area. Two, the gradient would transition the area to make the delineation less noticable. Finally, something strikes me... After 16 years with my high output electron gun, my ProScan surely has burn-in, yet I do not notice it. Gimme a break!

More expensive than competing tech? Only if Canon/Toshi want consumer acceptance controlled during production ramp-up. Or if the competition can continue to lower prices. Generally, you get what you pay for. Remember that achieving a 5% gain in quality requires another 100% increase in cost. Is the Pio Elite REALLY worth twice the price of a Sammy. BTW - LCDs for bright rooms, plasmas for caves. If SED is reflective then the competition is only against plasma.

OMG!!! Statements regarding screen size in prototypes vs. production is pointless, except that it proves that a size range is possible. 42" is done, 50" is done. 36" or 65" is the future. Anyone got a crystal ball? Note, plasmas keep getting smaller, CRTs bigger. Duh!

Reliability and lifetime issues will only be determined when we finally see SED in Costco and BJ's. However as a technology, IMO, the solid state emitters are theoretically long lived, and phosphors are a proven tech with known (realistically long) lifespans. Both are reliable within reason. Anyone want to play with a Nerf ball near their LCD? Dead pixels should be in line with LCD or plasma, to think otherwise, in either direction, is foolishness.

Mass production efficiencies only affect the rate at which prices drop, both in terms of cost to produce at the supply end, and markups at the demand side. Again it is the willingness of the manufacturer to recoup investment over a longer period to jump start the market with lower initial pricing that will foster mass consumer acceptance (IMHO).

As regards plasma tech, the color gamut is severly restricted by the gases that can be utilized. Sure CR can be increased with higher output levels, but gasses that can be excited to emit photons at specific wavelengths at reasonable stimulation (power) are rare. Solid phosphors are far simpler to engineer, and contain. A broken pixel bubble in a plasma is a dead pixel. Theoretically, a hairline crack in an SED (not withstanding other issues such as contamination of what I assume is a near vacuum or inert gas filled space) would not destroy an SED. Besides, haven't we been living, rather happily, with NTSC gamut? Remember too that the source scanners are gamut restricted to match old transmission standards, and display devices run parallel to this. A five color gamut display device still has to resolve an RGB CCD sensor in a videocamera or telecine.

Poster's note: We are still talking about vaporware. We, who traffic this forum, will not be waiting for SEDs to materialize before making our next purchase. Some of us cannot wait (me). Some of us will simply pony up the bucks to buy the latest and greatest (you). And what will happen if OLEDs (organic LEDs, which if the tech promise holds will be inkjet applied to the substrate for WAY cheap) come onto the market and 50" OLEDs sell for $800, and Canon/Toshi cannot compete? Anyone got a crystal ball?

SED reminds me of Blueray technology in that it is supposed to be the end all be all in disc technology, yet there were constant production problems, it kept getting pushed back and when it finally came out it was full of bugs and really expensive. Yet throughout that entire time we were being told how amazing it is. SED sounds like it will be awsome, but it's silly to assume it will be equivalent to the second coming of Jesus upon its initial release. Just like with Blueray...we know what it's capable of, but now make it happen. Potential does not equal reality.

Yup, you nailed it. I well remember the utter insanity from the BR fanboy group before the product was ever released. All we heard was that HD DVD should lay down and play dead, there was no point in Toshiba even releasing the product. Afterall, BR had more capacity. End of discussion. I tried at that time to inject some thoughts that this might well not be true. But I got shouted down there by the BR insanity. Man oh man, how much egg was on the faces of those people once the product was released? To this day BR simply struggles to be merely as good as HD DVD. No release has yet been shown to be superior to HD DVD.

Such may well be the case here. But as with BR, I see there is no point in trying to have a discussion here since the SED fanboys will just continue to ignore any points that may even suggest that SED may indeed not be superior to plasma in 'every way'. So as I did with BR, I give up here. Some must have heavy investments in this technology that causes them to ignore even the possibility that this might not be 'superior in every way' to other technologies. Some on this thread are quick to point out how 'eyewitness observers' have pointed out how superior SED is. But those same individuals simply ignore other 'eyewitnesses' that have seen the Pioneer 20,000:1 CR plasma and proclaim it to be the absolute equal of SED. Somehow the word 'cherrypicking' comes to mind.

As with BR, I truly think a balanced discussion is far more useful to people assessing the possible success/failure of a given technology. Professing a first round knockout before the boxers are even in the ring does utterly nothing to an intelligent discussion of the facts.

Yup, you nailed it. I well remember the utter insanity from the BR fanboy group before the product was ever released. All we heard was that HD DVD should lay down and play dead, there was no point in Toshiba even releasing the product. Afterall, BR had more capacity. End of discussion. I tried at that time to inject some thoughts that this might well not be true. But I got shouted down there by the BR insanity. Man oh man, how much egg was on the faces of those people once the product was released? To this day BR simply struggles to be merely as good as HD DVD. No release has yet been shown to be superior to HD DVD.

Such may well be the case here. But as with BR, I see there is no point in trying to have a discussion here since the SED fanboys will just continue to ignore any points that may even suggest that SED may indeed not be superior to plasma in 'every way'. So as I did with BR, I give up here. Some must have heavy investments in this technology that causes them to ignore even the possibility that this might not be 'superior in every way' to other technologies.

As with BR, I truly think a balanced discussion is far more useful to people assessing the possible success/failure of a given technology. Professing a first round knockout before the boxers are even in the ring does utterly nothing to an intelligent discussion of the facts. despite of the errors /bugs it currently has this is how i see it hd dvd is 1 an adaptive not a leap in tech blue ray is 2. blueray is more wanted everywhere 3 . since blue ray has more space then hd dvd then theirs LESS conpression therefore BETTER quality its a simple known fact you backup a dvd on a single layer your conpressing to fit and reduce quality but if you have a bigger space to work with ie dl disc then quality is 100% . blue ray will be more affortable for the time being and if the war continues they are going to be like dvd-r vs dvd+r so both formates will be playable via hybrid disc .... reports of 5 blue rays vs 1 hd dvd are more bought on a ps3 vs a hd dvd add on for 360 , and hd dvd is still very expensive due to the fact that its just adapting from dvd and most people know what i mean so in general i think blue ray is still better

Now your just being silly, greenland. He saw a DEMO of it!!!! does that mean nothing to you? A DEMO!!! It's obviously ready to be marketed and mass produced....just like my Flying Car!

You are absolutely right. Thanks for bringing me to my senses. I have seen the light. I am not going to wait. I am going to place my SED order now. Anyone know where I can get a good deal. I am willing to order through an online vendor, if it will save me a few bucks.

All this premature SED rapture being expressed by some of the most enthralled SED dreamers, makes me think that no matter how great it may eventually turn out to be, it can never live up to their transcending expectations.

Such fervor reminds of what Oscar Wilde said when he first saw Niagara Falls: "This must be the second greatest disappointment of Honeymooners". Oscar Wilde. ;)

Point for point, above...

We don't know anything about anything until the product is available at BB & CC, least of all final brightness. However 450cd/m is a good start.

How do we know that they will have reflective screens? My ProScan has a very effective lithium silicate anti-glare coating.

Superior blacks relative to plasmas today. As plasma cell output rises so does contrast ratio. In plasmas, CRT and SED off is off, and black is realized by dark glass keeping out ambient light. Assuming that off = absolute black, the light output at the emission site is going to determine CR given a particular glass transmisivity. The above mentioned ProScan takes advantage of an INVAR mask to allow for a 55W electron gun to overwhelm the extra dark tube glass to achieve inky blacks while having enough punch to generate the intense color (IMHO) only found in CRTs. LCD's lower CR stems from trying to filter the backlight (ineffectively) towards black.

Burn-in will only be known when BB & CC... Still, the issue mostly arises from the display of static images, like the task bar of a PC, or the graphics running under CNN, or (most importantly for the average user) the black bars to display unstretched 4:3 on a 16:9 monitor. As more content is delivered in widescreen this will become less of an issue. Yet I think a better solution lies with the manufacturers. What if they made the black bars a dynamic gradient grey bar? As image ramps up so does the grey, which also dims towards the edges. This would provide two functions. One, it would 'burn' the bar area to approximate the standard area. Two, the gradient would transition the area to make the delineation less noticable. Finally, something strikes me... After 16 years with my high output electron gun, my ProScan surely has burn-in, yet I do not notice it. Gimme a break!

More expensive than competing tech? Only if Canon/Toshi want consumer acceptance controlled during production ramp-up. Or if the competition can continue to lower prices. Generally, you get what you pay for. Remember that achieving a 5% gain in quality requires another 100% increase in cost. Is the Pio Elite REALLY worth twice the price of a Sammy. BTW - LCDs for bright rooms, plasmas for caves. If SED is reflective then the competition is only against plasma.

OMG!!! Statements regarding screen size in prototypes vs. production is pointless, except that it proves that a size range is possible. 42" is done, 50" is done. 36" or 65" is the future. Anyone got a crystal ball? Note, plasmas keep getting smaller, CRTs bigger. Duh!

Reliability and lifetime issues will only be determined when we finally see SED in Costco and BJ's. However as a technology, IMO, the solid state emitters are theoretically long lived, and phosphors are a proven tech with known (realistically long) lifespans. Both are reliable within reason. Anyone want to play with a Nerf ball near their LCD? Dead pixels should be in line with LCD or plasma, to think otherwise, in either direction, is foolishness.

Mass production efficiencies only affect the rate at which prices drop, both in terms of cost to produce at the supply end, and markups at the demand side. Again it is the willingness of the manufacturer to recoup investment over a longer period to jump start the market with lower initial pricing that will foster mass consumer acceptance (IMHO).

As regards plasma tech, the color gamut is severly restricted by the gases that can be utilized. Sure CR can be increased with higher output levels, but gasses that can be excited to emit photons at specific wavelengths at reasonable stimulation (power) are rare. Solid phosphors are far simpler to engineer, and contain. A broken pixel bubble in a plasma is a dead pixel. Theoretically, a hairline crack in an SED (not withstanding other issues such as contamination of what I assume is a near vacuum or inert gas filled space) would not destroy an SED. Besides, haven't we been living, rather happily, with NTSC gamut? Remember too that the source scanners are gamut restricted to match old transmission standards, and display devices run parallel to this. A five color gamut display device still has to resolve an RGB CCD sensor in a videocamera or telecine.

Poster's note: We are still talking about vaporware. We, who traffic this forum, will not be waiting for SEDs to materialize before making our next purchase. Some of us cannot wait (me). Some of us will simply pony up the bucks to buy the latest and greatest (you). And what will happen if OLEDs (organic LEDs, which if the tech promise holds will be inkjet applied to the substrate for WAY cheap) come onto the market and 50" OLEDs sell for $800, and Canon/Toshi cannot compete? Anyone got a crystal ball? i have to pretty much agree alto 16 yrs is alot poor tv give it some slack lol as far as oled goes its already said they arent targed againt tvs due to their blues having issues and lasting so they are aiming on small gadgest ipods cell phone screens etc etc but overall i liked the way you posted this especially with costco thing btw whats bj? 1 more yr man people start saving lol (early adaptors) for the OFFICALL DATE as i mentioend wiki said its july 07 who knows :P remember tv is alreayd in japan since the begainng of 06 so it does exsist for those that are saying it doesnt exisit

SED reminds me of Blueray technology in that it is supposed to be the end all be all in disc technology, yet there were constant production problems, it kept getting pushed back and when it finally came out it was full of bugs and really expensive. Yet throughout that entire time we were being told how amazing it is. SED sounds like it will be awsome, but it's silly to assume it will be equivalent to the second coming of Jesus upon its initial release. Just like with Blueray...we know what it's capable of, but now make it happen. Potential does not equal reality.
Not to mention that this is all 1st gen tech. I am reasonably certain that BRD will have the lead over HD-DVD. I am reasonably certain that HD-DVD will take the lead from BRD. And so on and so on as they leapfrog as the tech matures (and prices drop).

Anyone remember Beta vs. VHS. I do. I recall that Beta had undeniably better PQ, yet VHS won out (perhaps only due to pricing and licensing issues).

All this talk of SED that is still AT LEAST a year out, and if history is any indicator, probably two years until production levels. If SED becomes reality, I will be sure to get one. If no other tech matures to equal or best it in the next three years (when I expect I will be able to afford one).

i have to pretty much agree alto 16 yrs is alot poor tv give it some slack lol as far as oled goes its already said they arent targed againt tvs due to their blues having issues and lasting so they are aiming on small gadgest ipods cell phone screens etc etc but overall i liked the way you posted this especially with costco thing btw whats bj? 1 more yr man people start saving lol (early adaptors) for the OFFICALL DATE as i mentioend wiki said its july 07 who knows :P remember tv is alreayd in japan since the begainng of 06 so it does exsist for those that are saying it doesnt exisit
I wish the ProScan wasn't ready to kick it. :( It still kicks butt against other TVs. I will have to buy now, cry later; when the Sammy LN-S4095D I am about to buy (when the prices drop again after Xmas) is beaten, as I am sure it will be.

Today's OLEDs aren't ready for TV. But tomorrow?

BJ's is BJ's Wholesale Club, Natick, MA; similar to Costco and Sam's Club.

Just 'cause wiki says July '07, doesn't make it true. Press release in, garbage out.

Anyone know what an SED in Japan costs???

Here are some SED questions that I would welcome some comments on:

Toshiba and Canon have said that they will both be bringing SED to market under each of their Brand Names. Does anyone know if they will be offering the exact same product. If they are going to have different features offered on the Canon than the Toshiba, what will they be.

Now, if they are exactly the same, what would be the reason for anyone to purchase the Canon set. They have never marketed TVs before, and will be unlikely to have much support and service facilities in place, to the degree that a long time TV maker like Toshiba would already have established.

Does anyone have any information about this, and if not, will some of you who are planning to attend CES, see if you can get some answers from Toshiba and Canon. Thanks.

I will wait for SED to arrive before pronouncing it the best ever, but I do like the fact that it has had a lot of positive reviews by professionals in the bizz. Till then, I am more than happy with my 2001 model HD RPTV, and to me it still looks better than LCD and plasma.

VeniVideoVici the sammy vs the sony bravia xbr /or v2500 series well i thiknk sony better get yours at costco man that way when sed hits stores or 2nd /3rd batch hits costco you retun yours :P and nope no ideal on prices for the japan models..... greenland where did you get this info? can you provide a link?

VeniVideoVici the sammy vs the sony bravia xbr /or v2500 series well i thiknk sony better get yours at costco man that way when sed hits stores or 2nd /3rd batch hits costco you retun yours :P and nope no ideal on prices for the japan models..... greenland where did you get this info? can you provide a link?

Gus:

Sorry, I do not have one at hand. It was a report of an Interview given by Canon's SED Honcho at the fall show in Japan, where they first demonstrated the 1080P 55inch display. He said that they were going to share the production operations with Toshiba, but they were going to each market SED under their own Brands. I will see if I can locate the item, when I have a little more time. Perhaps it may even be already posted on this thread back when people were posting the pictures and reports from that show. :)

As regards plasma tech, the color gamut is severly restricted by the gases that can be utilized. Sure CR can be increased with higher output levels, but gasses that can be excited to emit photons at specific wavelengths at reasonable stimulation (power) are rare. Solid phosphors are far simpler to engineer, and contain. A broken pixel bubble in a plasma is a dead pixel. Theoretically, a hairline crack in an SED (not withstanding other issues such as contamination of what I assume is a near vacuum or inert gas filled space) would not destroy an SED. Besides, haven't we been living, rather happily, with NTSC gamut? Remember too that the source scanners are gamut restricted to match old transmission standards, and display devices run parallel to this. A five color gamut display device still has to resolve an RGB CCD sensor in a videocamera or telecine.



Not sure I understand your point here. The gasses in a PDP do not emit photons in the visible spectrum. The gasses are ionized and emit UV, which is then used to excite phosphors that generate the primary colors. For CRT and SED, electrons are used to excite phosphors. In any case, for all of these display types, the color gamut is limited by the phosphors used.

If SED doesn't happen in 2008 will there be any videophile suicides?

How does 1.3 HDMI relate to SED?

I'm pretty sure the second gen SED is going to blow 1st gen SED out of the water. It just has so many advantages over the 1st gen.

The Jetsons had an SED. A first gen too.

Actually, SED is already obsolete. It has been for a while.

I'm waiting for TFE displays.

you mean tft tvs? and how you assume its already ovsolite? based on assuming it hasnt hit usa and its going to within 1-2 yrs and its crt tube + thin tv = sed best from both worlds....

Not sure I understand your point here. The gasses in a PDP do not emit photons in the visible spectrum. The gasses are ionized and emit UV, which is then used to excite phosphors that generate the primary colors. For CRT and SED, electrons are used to excite phosphors. In any case, for all of these display types, the color gamut is limited by the phosphors used.
I stand corrected. I have a lot of tech junk in my noggin, but am not so stiff necked to not realize that I do not know all. Thanks for disabusing me. The diff then lies in creating phosphors that are excited by UV vs. electrons. I wonder which it will end up being easier to create, although electron excited emission (color) phosphors have been around for 50 years (in TV) while UV for merely 10.

I also wonder if currently available SED sets, in very limited quantities, will be similarly priced to plasmas of 10 years ago, at nearly $40K, but soon thereafter at $15K.

Are these even option anymore? I was big follower too but with Laser DLP and god knows what else coming out before these hit it would seem most of the thunder is now gone.

[QUOTE=Veers21]That is exactly my point though. You are looking at the end, but not the journey.

You are correct because the journey has no effect on the end user, you either have a set or you don't.

A demo version does not equal millions hanging on the walls of Best Buys and Circuit Cities.

I don't think that anyone believes that you are going to 55 inch SED sets all over the wall at Circuit City and Best Buy. More than like they will first appear at A/V specialty shops. I believe that when SED arrives, it will mark the begining of a new paradigm in display technology, even if its only 20 sets, that's a start.

I'm not saying it doesn't look awsome. I know once it's perfected it will be amazing. But none of the SEDphiles seems to want to admit that there may be some problems with the developement of it on a large scale and prefecting the technology for consumers.

There are bugs with any new technology, but I contend, even with those bugs SED from the start will be better than any display technology we have ever seen.

We saw Blueray demos long before it came out also, yet that didn't stop any delays or bugs. There is a big difference between having 20 engineers building 1 demo unit and having 1 million units being pumped out by robots.

Again, Blu-ray and HD-DVD is a joke and represents a fleecing of America. Did they not learn from the most recent consumer electronic failure, SA-CD and DVD-A.

I think the technology is awsome, so don't be offended. I'm just saying it seems silly that because someone saw a nice demo of it that I can assume to have a prefect bugless one that I bought for $1k hanging in my livinig room next spring. As awsome as I expect it to be I totally expect to not see a good quality unit for another 2 years minimum.

No one is predicting that SED sets will be bug free and cost 1k. What I'm saying is that SED will be better than what we currently have and that we will take from there.

I also wonder if currently available SED sets, in very limited quantities, will be similarly priced to plasmas of 10 years ago, at nearly $40K, but soon thereafter at $15K.

According to the folks at Toshiba/Canon, the initial SED sets are to be priced slightly higher than competeting LCD sets.

So if a 55 inch 1080p LCD set is priced at 6k, SED might be priced at 7-8k.

Are these even option anymore? I was big follower too but with Laser DLP and god knows what else coming out before these hit it would seem most of the thunder is now gone.

Laser DLP, you got to be kidding me!! Flat Panel TV is the future, be it LCD, Plasma or SED. Unless you can make DLP into a flat panel it has no future, RPTV technology is on life support.

I'm going to repost some comments made by Dr. Raymond Soneira.. Ph.D. foremost display technology expert on the subject of SED and its advantages of plasma. Now read carefully and if you disagree please state why.



Potentially the most interesting is the Canon-Toshiba Surface-conduction Electron-emitter Display, SED, which is a very thin (under 1 centimeter) CRT-like phosphor-based display technology. It has digitally addressed pixels, however, the brightness of each pixel is produced through an analog process, so it should be free of the digital artifacts present in plasma and DLP displays, which have digital on-off intensity controls produced with pulse width modulation (see Part III). In this regard SED is very similar to LCoS. As an emissive technology, SED already produces CRT-like black levels, with contrast ratios in the 10,000 to 100,000 range (much better than plasma because it doesn't need to maintain a background level for priming the discharge). The response time is speced at 1ms, which is very fast.

MY god auditor, you are on everyones ignore list and you still manage to QUADRUPLE post. Even with you messages hidden from me, that's annoying. Use the edit feature, show some courteousy.

Auditor55, while I agree SED will be the best tech if/when it arrives, you need to chill out. Youre so excited about something that may or maynot even come out, and all signs point to 2008. Man, thats over a year to go. I know I'll be enjoying my 50" Panny which I bought for a very low price untill at least the second gen SED which would mean 2 years to go for me anyway. What will you do if at CES they basically annouce........nothing on SED. Will you end your life? or move on and get a great looking display NOW.

Also, how is Blu-ray and HD DVD a fleecing of America? (Canada for me) I have both Blu-ray (PS3) and HD DVD (A1) and I am really enjoying the huge improvment in Picture and sound. I don't care which format wins in the long run as long as there is a steady flow of movies on either format. Most studios are commited to realeasing their new movies day and date with DVD, and I don't mind buying the same movie again in HD if the quality is a big step up.

SED makes CNNMoney's 15 Surprises Ahead in 2007 (http://money.cnn.com/popups/2006/biz2/revolutions/index.html?postversion=2006121805?cnn=yes). See #7. No new info to be garnered though.

"Early SEDs are expected to cost $10,000." (http://money.cnn.com/popups/2006/biz2/revolutions/7.html) :eek:

That would put it on par with the FHD1's list price. Isn't this about what was expected?

I'm going to repost some comments made by Dr. Raymond Soneira.. Ph.D. foremost display technology expert on the subject of SED and its advantages of plasma. Now read carefully and if you disagree please state why.



Potentially the most interesting is the Canon-Toshiba Surface-conduction Electron-emitter Display, SED, which is a very thin (under 1 centimeter) CRT-like phosphor-based display technology. It has digitally addressed pixels, however, the brightness of each pixel is produced through an analog process, so it should be free of the digital artifacts present in plasma and DLP displays, which have digital on-off intensity controls produced with pulse width modulation (see Part III). In this regard SED is very similar to LCoS. As an emissive technology, SED already produces CRT-like black levels, with contrast ratios in the 10,000 to 100,000 range (much better than plasma because it doesn't need to maintain a background level for priming the discharge). The response time is speced at 1ms, which is very fast.

While I don't disagree it is exciting and I truly hope it works out. It is still a long ways into the future, pricing still hasn't been determined, and if it is still way higher then LCD, even by a few thousand, that will make it unlikely the mass public will get one soon, so that puts it even farther into the future when prices drop. So we are talking years now, who knows what will happen by then.

I also have a huge concern with SED that if it is phosphor based, then it too will suffer from IR, and with that high of a contrast/brightness these sets are showing, will it make it even more prone to it?

That would put it on par with the FHD1's list price. Isn't this about what was expected?Yes but for some, myself included, it's still a lot of money for a 50" (?) display.

"Early SEDs are expected to cost $10,000." (http://money.cnn.com/popups/2006/biz2/revolutions/7.html) :eek: I guess that's the part of the article where surprise comes in. :D

I also have a huge concern with SED that if it is phosphor based, then it too will suffer from IR, and with that high of a contrast/brightness these sets are showing, will it make it even more prone to it?

It depends on the lifetimes of the phosphors used- same situation as plasma really. As the lifetime goes up the technology becomes less prone to IR/burn-in. CRT is/was no different in this regard, it's just the the phosphor technology is very mature, much like plasma is these days. The longer it takes for a phosphor to decay the less chance you will have of perceptibly uneven wear (from intensity difference that aren't changing over time).

That would put it on par with the FHD1's list price. Isn't this about what was expected?The pio was 10 grand for like 5 minutes. It has been available for around a 35% discount from many sources. I doubt that even the earliest must haves shelled out that kind of dough.

Yes but for some, myself included, it's still a lot of money for a 50" (?) display.It's definitely out of my budget too. I'll keep an eye on it and buy an LCD in the meantime. ;)

As a side note I don't know how much weight I'd put on that CNN price. I doubt the writer had any inside source but rather simply made an educated guess.

The SED people talk about their tech as if it were out competing with current tech now but the real situation is that a late 2008 MIGHT yeild the first units.
How do you compete or make meaningful comparisons with the competition when it is maybe 2 years out? :confused:

"Early SEDs are expected to cost $10,000." (http://money.cnn.com/popups/2006/biz2/revolutions/7.html) :eek:


Wow, best to go with something else for now and wait for the prices to come down to earth. :eek:

The SED people talk about their tech as if it were out competing with current tech now but the real situation is that a late 2008 MIGHT yeild the first units.
How do you compete or make meaningful comparisons with the competition when it is maybe 2 years out? :confused:Exactly!
It’s like as if this were an Auto Forum and there was an exuberant poster, let’s call him Autoitor 55, going on and on about his new hybrid Ford F-150 long bed pick up that gets 55 miles per gallon—when it eventually comes out.. You don’t get that mileage and you’re not watching an SED TV.

I'm going to repost some comments made by Dr. Raymond Soneira.. Ph.D. foremost display technology expert on the subject of SED and its advantages of plasma. Now read carefully and if you disagree please state why.



Potentially the most interesting is the Canon-Toshiba Surface-conduction Electron-emitter Display, SED, which is a very thin (under 1 centimeter) CRT-like phosphor-based display technology. It has digitally addressed pixels, however, the brightness of each pixel is produced through an analog process, so it should be free of the digital artifacts present in plasma and DLP displays, which have digital on-off intensity controls produced with pulse width modulation (see Part III). In this regard SED is very similar to LCoS. As an emissive technology, SED already produces CRT-like black levels, with contrast ratios in the 10,000 to 100,000 range (much better than plasma because it doesn't need to maintain a background level for priming the discharge). The response time is speced at 1ms, which is very fast.
The good Doctor Soneira hedges his bets so drastically that it continues to press the vaporishness (new word destined for the O.E.D. and M-W dictionary) of the technology:

Potentially... CRT-like... so it should...

For MY part, I can't wait to see ANY new tech, especially one that promises to be a breakthrough. However, the mass production hurdle still has to be met. As stated elsewhere in this thread, a zillion yen makes it possible for a large group of engineers to sift through how many (dozens, hundreds, thousands) of prototypes to obtain a handful of working units. Will Canon be able to extend inkjet tech to the point where the print heads can make more than a few screens before replacement? Can the glass manufacturer cheaply provide the panes to the tolerances required to maintain 4-6nm gaps? Will the transistor/wire reject rate be acceptable? And finally, when will the price drop below the magic $2K mark?

As regards branding I expect Toshi to make the electronics for both while Canon makes the panels. Each doing what they do best. The difference might be similar to Sony's use of Samsung's LCD panels, where the electronics and form factor differentiate the two. Toshi's tech support will have to work for both lines, probably out of the same repair depots with different signage at the loading dock.
************************************************************ *****
When I first read about OLED I thought cool, I want that, it should be cheap to produce. Unfortunately they have not yet figured out the color gamut issues.

When I first read about SED I thought cool, I want that, it should render like a CRT from a flat panel. Unfortunately they are not even close to production.
************************************************************ *****
I need a TV now, not in two or three years (the latter when I would expect prices to be within reason for my Joe Average wallet). RPTV does not work for me because I need very wide viewing angles. Plasma does not work for me in my too bright room (incidence angle from sliding glass doors w/ vertical blinds). I have already dialed down from my desire for 55" to 46" to 40" based upon LCD pricing, from $6K to $3K to $2K. I wish I could have a 50" CRT that weighs less than 500 lbs., for $1K but...

Is the image from ANY of the CURRENTLY available techs perfect? NO. Each has its limitations. I expect SED to have its limits too. To think otherwise is crazy fanboyism at its worst, for it is still vaporware and press releases, not even the realistic expectations for 1st gen looking ahead to gen2. Has ANY of YOU seen SED with your OWN eyes? I bet not. The majority of us on this forum are geeks and get off on tech. However, a picture of a naked woman is not the same as an actual naked woman.

Five years from now I am hopeful that my wife will let me plunk down serious coin for an SED to replace the LCD I am buying next month. I'll tell her that I am moving the LCD into our bedroom. Wish me luck!!!

JeffLL

The pio was 10 grand for like 5 minutes. It has been available for around a 35% discount from many sources. I doubt that even the earliest must haves shelled out that kind of dough.
Commercial users bought the earliest HD plasmas. I saw these in the lobbies of video production facilities across North America, and in the post-production studios too. These are the same guys who will lay out over $5K for a Barco reference CRT monitor. These are the same guys who laid out $40K for the very first plasmas. No doubt SED, Inc. will look for them to do the same again. For five minutes.

JeffLL

paulbf1 the demo you saw was 720p 37'' PROTOTYPE remmeber that
sure they can charge 8k hell even 15k bout would people buy elite vs a sed tv? thats your answer ( remeber sed is crt = best pq and it starts at 55'' thats 5 more then pdp ) and look at lcd its been inproved but is still no where near due to the many errors it has because of its technology same goes with pdp they are both ok technology but cannot be supirior vs crt tv pq and sed is a leap from crt to make it even better
.


Can somebody translate this into English? :rolleyes: In the mean time, I'll attempt to address your points.

Yes, was the 37", but it gave a pretty good representation of the technology. However, there were obvious shortcomings. It was not as sharp or vibrant as 720p LCD or PDP.

CRT is not the best PQ. There is no best PQ, as every technology has it's +'s and -'s. As a matter of fact, CRT would be at the bottom of my list in large screen sets as would RP LCD.

If SED has to start at 55", than I'm very suspicious of the cost effectiveness. There are many instances where people need a smaller screens and abandoning that market segment suggests mfr. issues where the costs can only be recovered in large, expensive sets.

The biggest problems with LCDs are the CR and motion blur and both are being addressed. Samsung just announced a technology that pretty much eliminates blur and other mfrs. will follow. The CR will not approach other technologies in the near future and may never reach it, but if that's the only problem it will still be very good if progress continues at the current rate.

As for PDP, I see no reason why it can't approach SED in PQ, despite what omniscient engineering experts like auditor55 profess. As I said, if Pioneer can get $8K for their top 50" in todays market and SED can't even get into production at that price point, there are probably cost issues that could prevent SED production for a long time. The big issue with PDP for me is the power consumption and that's a deal breaker, but most people don't care about that.

And I speak from experience, as I've worked on products that were great technically but never saw the light of day because they were out flanked by cheaper competitors during development.

Does this thread remind anyone of "Waiting for Godot", because it's taking on the same absurdity? :D

Does this thread remind anyone of "Waiting for Godot", because it's taking on the same absurdity? :D Funny, he never showed up on the first thread either. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8429388#post8429388) Post 2104 :D
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8429388#post8429388

A simple test question:

How much does the 55inch SED Panel weigh, and can it be wall mounted?. No speculation, just factual answers please.

If you can not provide, or obtain, an answer for such a basic inquiry about the SED display, then all your unbridled praise, is mere "sound and fury, signifying nothing". Fervor can not be a substitute for facts.:)

That would put it on par with the FHD1's list price. Isn't this about what was expected?

This is what I'm been saying all along. You get five more inches with a SED set for the same price. :D

It amazes me how people are willing to pay in excess of 10k for sets that have more pixels, e.g. 1080p, but complain about 10k for a new ground breaking display technology.

Panny 65 inch 1080p Plasma (msrp 12k including speakers and stand) CR 5,000-1

Pio Elite 50 FHD1 1080p (msrp 10k, with no tuner, speakers or stand and only 50 inches) CR 3,000-1

Samsung 57 1080p LCD (msrp 15k) CR 2,000-1


Some of you could wait to use your charge cards to buy one of the above cited displays and now you complain about the rumored price of SED.

btw, the SED sets will be 1080p. (1080p sells!!)

on CNET there is a story that Toshiba is announcing no SED sets at CES this year.
http://news.com.com/Toshibas+SED+TV+a+no-show+at+electronics+show/2100-1041_3-6145540.html?tag=nefd.lede

on CNET there is a story that Toshiba is announcing no SED sets at CES this year.
http://news.com.com/Toshibas+SED+TV+a+no-show+at+electronics+show/2100-1041_3-6145540.html?tag=nefd.lede

What does this mean ---that late 2007 has turned into 08 or 09 ?

Roy

Well, let's assume the real story is that Nano Pro is suing Canon and it's nothing more.

Despite that, are there any examples of breakthough televisions shipping in the same year they >>couldn't<< be shown at CES? And really, a production model of this TV has been shown... nowhere ever in public.

2007 seems like a pipe dream for the U.S. market at least. :\

What does this mean ---that late 2007 has turned into 08 or 09 ?

Roy

We have wait until the litigation run its course.

What does this mean ---that late 2007 has turned into 08 or 09 ?

Roy

Summer 2008 was always the projected time for SED in the U.S.

on CNET there is a story that Toshiba is announcing no SED sets at CES this year.
http://news.com.com/Toshibas+SED+TV+a+no-show+at+electronics+show/2100-1041_3-6145540.html?tag=nefd.lede

The article says that Nano-Proprietary and Canon are currently in closed door settlement talks. Unless the talks are going very badly, and do not look like that they are going to reach a settlement, the last minute CES cancelation seems like a counter productive move for all the parties. Promoting the product in the USA is absolutely essential to establishing a viable consumer base for the product, and without that base, all three parties will have very little spoils to fight over. Perhaps another major TV maker has made Nano-Prop a big offer. It would behoove Matsushita to make such a move. Just speculation on my part. But, with Toshiba/Canon record of false claims and commitments, I do not take anything they now state to be trust worthy. This whole SED saga has turned into a complete farce. Canon has never made consumer TVs. They want in. They do not lock up patent rights or license from another party. They claim that they have developed a SED InkJet manufacturing process. Then they say, never mind, it doesn't work, but we now have developed another manufacturing process. All set to go. Never mind, we have to put things on hold for an unspecified period. Why?. We can not tell you why. I have heard enough BS from Canon/Toshiba . This is the last straw. SED is dead to me.

This is the last straw. SED is dead to me

Does that mean you won't posting here anymore :( :rolleyes:

Summer 2008 was always the projected time for SED in the U.S. :eek: :confused: :rolleyes: What are you talking about??

From the above Cnet story...
http://news.com.com/Toshibas+SED+TV+a+no-show+at+electronics+show/2100-1041_3-6145540.html?tag=nefd.lede

the first TVs would hit retail shelves in 2005. In October, Toshiba pushed out the release again, saying the first SED TVs, a 55-incher, would come out in late 2007.

I think it's dead to all of us.

Yo, Auddy, you better dump that wallpaper, (those valuable stock certificates :rolleyes: ), while you still can.

:eek: :confused: :rolleyes: What are you talking about??

From the above Cnet story...
http://news.com.com/Toshibas+SED+TV+a+no-show+at+electronics+show/2100-1041_3-6145540.html?tag=nefd.lede

the first TVs would hit retail shelves in 2005. In October, Toshiba pushed out the release again, saying the first SED TVs, a 55-incher, would come out in late 2007.

I think it's dead to all of us.

SED has always been dead to you. But for us, those who remain optimistic for this wonderful new technology, this story is no way hampers Toshiba/Canon plans to bring SED to the market. Read the article again, the folks at Toshiba/Canon are moving forward with SED.

That's why they are being sued, because the plaintiff's know that a lot of money is about to made with SED.

Take SED to Heaven in 2007!! :D

SED has always been dead to you. But for us, those who remain optimistic for this wonderful new technology, this story is no way hampers Toshiba/Canon plans to bring SED to the market. Read the article again, the folks at Toshiba/Canon are moving forward with SED.

That's why they are being sued, because the plaintiff's know that a lot of money is about to made with SED.

Take SED to Heaven in 2007!! :DI want it to succeed as much as you do but get a grip. It’s not here and it won’t be for the foreseeable future. Keep on frolicking through the daisy field dreaming your dreams. Be happy. :)

Has ANY of YOU seen SED with your OWN eyes? I bet not. The majority of us on this forum are geeks and get off on tech. However, a picture of a naked woman is not the same as an actual naked woman.



JeffLL

First off, I am one of the lucky few that has actually seen SED with my own eyes. I saw two demonstrations of it at last years CES (one from Canon and one from Toshiba). The picture blew me away. It was clearly better than any LCD or Plasma I had ever seen before.

In any case, I was bummed to hear SED won't be at this years CES. I am going again. I really do hope Canon and Toshiba get these TVs released because they will give Plasma and LCD a run for their money. That's my two cents from a guy who has seen SED first hand.

The article says that Nano-Proprietary and Canon are currently in closed door settlement talks. Unless the talks are going very badly, and do not look like that they are going to reach a settlement, the last minute CES cancelation seems like a counter productive move for all the parties. Promoting the product in the USA is absolutely essential to establishing a viable consumer base for the product, and without that base, all three parties will have very little spoils to fight over. Perhaps another major TV maker has made Nano-Prop a big offer. It would behoove Matsushita to make such a move. Just speculation on my part. But, with Toshiba/Canon record of false claims and commitments, I do not take anything they now state to be trust worthy. This whole SED saga has turned into a complete farce. Canon has never made consumer TVs. They want in. They do not lock up patent rights or license from another party. They claim that they have developed a SED InkJet manufacturing process. Then they say, never mind, it doesn't work, but we now have developed another manufacturing process. All set to go. Never mind, we have to put things on hold for an unspecified period. Why?. We can not tell you why. I have heard enough BS from Canon/Toshiba . This is the last straw. SED is dead to me.

Yep, looks like SED might be hitting that large scrap-pile of R&D Consumer Products that never quite made it to market or were so short lived that their existence was barely noticed. Rogo pointed out some very interesting opinions that I happen to share. There have been absolutely no production models shown to this date. Period. I hope you guys & gals...and Auditor55 will finally wake up and smell the coffee. I as much as anyone, would love to see another competing video tech hit our market as competition spells good news for us consumers. BUT, I also live in the real world, and for SED the future does not look very well.

Wow, best to go with something else for now and wait for the prices to come down to earth. :eek: you cant expect a price like this 1. because its not offical 2. EXPECTED does not mean it will be 3. prices can change anytime so lets wait and see the actuall price when the tv hits the SHELFS

No SEDs at CES 2007? WOW!! This does not bode well at all. This is the first SED news we've had in months and, unfortunately, things seem to be going the wrong direction.

It seems that Toshiba / Canon are not as confident in their "vastly superior" display technology as some would like them to be.

I would think that if Toshiba / Canon were truly on track to introduce this technology, they would at least have some first article units from a production pilot run. Not only are we not getting to see those, now it seems like we won't even get to see the hand-built prototypes they've been dragging around for the last year or two.

After several delays and now a no-show, I think anyone who is still optimistic about this technology at this point must be delusional.

Face it--as John Lennon once sang "The dream is over"!

I have not read this entire thread, so this may have been mentioned.

I read somewhere a few weeks ago, that SED is delayed because the process needs to change. The process engineers try to increase yield and lower prices.

Some of us have tried to present the other side, but have usually been shouted down. I hope this thing eventually succeeds, but as I've said before, the other technologies march on and the gap will probably be all but non-existent by the time SED arrives (if it ever arrives). This has been my point from day one. What chance is there for a new, unproven and expensive technology when it may no longer have any significant performance advantage once it arrives? This is just common sense.

At this point SED Inc. cannot afford a single delay. If it can't deliver products by summer of 2008 it's all over because by then LCD and Plasma technologies will have advanced to the point where an average consumer simply won't care enough to drop few extra Ks for better PQ of SED. And who knows, the way things are going we could see something equal or even better than SED in 2008. Can't wait for reports on how Laser projection will look at the CES.

SED has always been dead to you. But for us, those who remain optimistic for this wonderful new technology, this story is no way hampers Toshiba/Canon plans to bring SED to the market. Read the article again, the folks at Toshiba/Canon are moving forward with SED.

That's why they are being sued, because the plaintiff's know that a lot of money is about to made with SED.

Take SED to Heaven in 2007!! :D

If you didn't get it by now, you will never get it.
SED is DEAD for the mainstream market.

I think it is pretty easy to see.

Believe me, I am not anti-SED at all. I want the
technology to do good, but it is obvious that it isn't going
to be out in full force in 2007 and that is pretty much the death kneel.

Most of America can't wait for SED to come out in 2010 with decent prices.
By then there will be better solutions on the market. Laser TV's are coming out
in late 2007 and other technology.

SED is pretty much done as far as a market goes.

I know you don't want to believe it, the fact is that
it's not going to be at CES and that means that TV's
with that technology won't either, which means a big
delay which means it is pretty much over for SED.

you really think i or most cosumers will get the bigg bulky or ier laster tv version of crt tube? let me re say it if crt tube was bulky for people to drag out and sacrfise picture quality what makes you think people are going to get even bigger bulkier units for a unknown and talked of a laser tv? sed tv is coming and they (toshiba / cannon) are seeing the situation and are looking for ways to not sacrfise pq while making production cost cheaper so they can sell for less while still retaining the quality they are proimsed , sed is coming people lets just wait and see what happens or insted of arguing/ talking to sed haters lets find out why toshiba/cannon delayed it for the show and weather or not this will effect the schualed released date for usa and if this relates to that company that is taking to court on cannon/toshiba ,maybe it has a connection

This is what I'm been saying all along. You get five more inches with a SED set for the same price. :D

It amazes me how people are willing to pay in excess of 10k for sets that have more pixels, e.g. 1080p, but complain about 10k for a new ground breaking display technology.

Panny 65 inch 1080p Plasma (msrp 12k including speakers and stand) CR 5,000-1

Pio Elite 50 FHD1 1080p (msrp 10k, with no tuner, speakers or stand and only 50 inches) CR 3,000-1

Samsung 57 1080p LCD (msrp 15k) CR 2,000-1


Given that the Panny can be had for under 8k and the Pio under 6k, I'm not sure how you claim they are the same price. When SED comes out in 2008, these will likely be around 5-6k and 3-4k, respectively, so your comment makes even less sense. Compared to the Panny, you will get 10 fewer inches for double the price.


Some of you could wait to use your charge cards to buy one of the above cited displays and now you complain about the rumored price of SED.

btw, the SED sets will be 1080p. (1080p sells!!)

Who exactly are you talking about? Also, what people are "complaining" about is that SED will not be price competitive at 10k in 2008. It will likely be double the price of a 1080p LCD/Plasma at equivalent size. If SED were to come out at 20k, would you "complain" about the price? Or is the technology so good that price is irrelevant?

Bruce

Rogo <--- going to CES by the way. Apropos of nothing.

the other technologies march on and the gap will probably be all but non-existent by the time SED arrives (if it ever arrives)Makes sense to me, considering most AVS Forum members report seeing no difference between 480p & 1080p PDPs. :D

http://img.microsoft.com/whdc/images/archive/TempRate16.GIF (http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/archive/TempRate.mspx#EEH)
Does the SED display show visible flicker? SED flicker rate may give me eye strain.

In the best Bruce Willis voice:

"SED's dead, baby. SED's dead...".

Toshiba's SEDs gong to be a "no show" at CES this year:

linky: http://news.com.com/Toshibas+SED+TV+a+no-show+at+electronics+show/2100-1041_3-6145540.html?tag=ne.gall.related

That giant sucking sound you hear is the last few SED vapors evaporating . . . .

you really think i or most cosumers will get the bigg bulky or ier laster tv version of crt tube? let me re say it if crt tube was bulky for people to drag out and sacrfise picture quality what makes you think people are going to get even bigger bulkier units for a unknown and talked of a laser tv? sed tv is coming and they (toshiba / cannon) are seeing the situation and are looking for ways to not sacrfise pq while making production cost cheaper so they can sell for less while still retaining the quality they are proimsed , sed is coming people lets just wait and see what happens or insted of arguing/ talking to sed haters lets find out why toshiba/cannon delayed it for the show and weather or not this will effect the schualed released date for usa and if this relates to that company that is taking to court on cannon/toshiba ,maybe it has a connection

A few things:

1) I don't think you understand the potential of Laser illuminated microdisplays. These will likely be about 8-inches deep for a 60" display and can be mounted flush with the wall. They will weigh about 1/2 and have about 1/3rd the power of Plasma or LCD.

2) After all the delays, SED does not need any bad news. This is one more nail.

3) I did see SED at CES last year and what impressed me most was how contrived and controlled the demo was. I mean just a short demo loop of content meant to show off their strengths (and maybe hide their weaknesses). They wouldn't let you get within about 5 screen heights of the 32" displays. I wouldn't buy into any technology that I couldn't get up close to and run more uncontrolled content on. My experience is that the more contrived and controlled the demo, the further that the technology is from being ready for production. At CES, I told my friends that were impressed by the demo itself, that from the look of the setup, this technology was not ready for production any time soon.