The article says that Nano-Proprietary and Canon are currently in closed door settlement talks. Unless the talks are going very badly, and do not look like that they are going to reach a settlement, the last minute CES cancelation seems like a counter productive move for all the parties. Promoting the product in the USA is absolutely essential to establishing a viable consumer base for the product, and without that base, all three parties will have very little spoils to fight over. Perhaps another major TV maker has made Nano-Prop a big offer. It would behoove Matsushita to make such a move. Just speculation on my part. But, with Toshiba/Canon record of false claims and commitments, I do not take anything they now state to be trust worthy. This whole SED saga has turned into a complete farce. Canon has never made consumer TVs. They want in. They do not lock up patent rights or license from another party. They claim that they have developed a SED InkJet manufacturing process. Then they say, never mind, it doesn't work, but we now have developed another manufacturing process. All set to go. Never mind, we have to put things on hold for an unspecified period. Why?. We can not tell you why. I have heard enough BS from Canon/Toshiba . This is the last straw. SED is dead to me.
I agree with this with the expansions that:

Matsushta needs an inkjet tech. If not Canon, who? HP with their own TV's? Epson, with no prior SED experience?

As far as Canon desiring a piece of the TV market, why would they want their own brand and all the associated headaches, if they can provide the process to others and sit back and watch the licensing fees (money for nothing) roll in?

SED is not dead. Yet. It is an emergent tech, still in utero. If it delivers I will be among the first at BB or CC to judge it with my own eyes against 6th, 7th & 8th generation LCD, PDP, or whatever, in side-by-side comparos. If SED is stillborn, or overtaken by another emergent tech, or matured old tech...

It will be strictly price/quality one day in 2010. I state that late date because if SED, Inc. were anywhere close to production they would be settling with Nano-Prop very quickly.

JeffLL

Tomorrow's tech is always better than today's.
Refinements of old tech will get cheaper.
New tech will cost more, but then price drop.

First off, I am one of the lucky few that has actually seen SED with my own eyes. I saw two demonstrations of it at last years CES (one from Canon and one from Toshiba). The picture blew me away. It was clearly better than any LCD or Plasma I had ever seen before.

In any case, I was bummed to hear SED won't be at this years CES. I am going again. I really do hope Canon and Toshiba get these TVs released because they will give Plasma and LCD a run for their money. That's my two cents from a guy who has seen SED first hand.
I am jealous.

How did it compare with what you would expect from CRT?

A few things:

3) I did see SED at CES last year and what impressed me most was how contrived and controlled the demo was. I mean just a short demo loop of content meant to show off their strengths (and maybe hide their weaknesses). They wouldn't let you get within about 5 screen heights of the 32" displays. I wouldn't buy into any technology that I couldn't get up close to and run more uncontrolled content on. My experience is that the more contrived and controlled the demo, the further that the technology is from being ready for production. At CES, I told my friends that were impressed by the demo itself, that from the look of the setup, this technology was not ready for production any time soon.
I assume you liked what you saw, but didn't see what you liked.

Being a cynic myself, I am fond of your rationale, above.

IF SED makes it, I will very likely want it. Yet, still, by the time it arrives, what else will there be to want even more? That rationale is also quite worthy.

JeffLL

It will be strictly price/quality one day in 2010. I state that late date because if SED, Inc. were anywhere close to production they would be settling with Nano-Prop very quickly.


2010 ?:confused: Competing then against 199.99$ 50" 12th generation LCDs? :rolleyes:

The best is to get real, forget SED and see amazing goodies which will be shown at CES in 2 weeks time :D.

Given that the Panny can be had for under 8k and the Pio under 6k, I'm not sure how you claim they are the same price. When SED comes out in 2008, these will likely be around 5-6k and 3-4k, respectively, so your comment makes even less sense. Compared to the Panny, you will get 10 fewer inches for double the price.



Who exactly are you talking about? Also, what people are "complaining" about is that SED will not be price competitive at 10k in 2008. It will likely be double the price of a 1080p LCD/Plasma at equivalent size. If SED were to come out at 20k, would you "complain" about the price? Or is the technology so good that price is irrelevant?

Bruce

According to forum rules, I only quote msrp and not some prices you might have found at some Brooklyn Sleaze-tailer on the net.

In the best Bruce Willis voice:

"SED's dead, baby. SED's dead...".

Its sad to see that you are so gleeful at the false belief that SED is dead. We now know that you are one them that take pleasure in maintaining the status quo regarding the state of current display technology, which is inadquate for videophiles worldwide.

Toshiba's SEDs gong to be a "no show" at CES this year:

linky: http://news.com.com/Toshibas+SED+TV+a+no-show+at+electronics+show/2100-1041_3-6145540.html?tag=ne.gall.related

That giant sucking sound you hear is the last few SED vapors evaporating . . . .

We have seen this link already. Fortunately I have the advantage of working at an internal law firm and have some understanding of how litigation works regarding such matters as cited in that story.

SED will not, unfortunately, 'make it'. Neither will plasma, front or rear projection (lasers included), and probably not even OLED.

LCD is the One Ring that will rule the display world, at least in the size range between cell phone and 100-inch. In the long-term market, there is no room for competing display technologies; their existence is merely a temporary filler for niches that will become very small very quickly.

It is useful to remember that the display market, long owned by the CRT, has since its inception been dominated by a single technology, with others existing in their small niches around the edges.

There is no reason to expect this dynamic to change; furthermore, LCD is widely recognized by the industry to be the technology of choice for future market dominance.

LCD production has had many years to work out bugs, make general improvements, and most importantly rationalize production and construct fabrication facilities which vastly outcapacitize those of its nearest competitor (plasma). Furthermore, the materials cost of LCD is fundamentally lower than that of plasma.

Finally, the LCD market has a very wide range of applications (market diversity), which when combined with fabrication flexibility, mean very positive effects for production efficiency, investment risk, and market expansion opportunities.

None of LCD's competitors have any of these advantages; perhaps most significantly, none have the mass-production head start required to play in today's display market, including SED. It was already too late for SED to be anything other than an extremely small niche player (at best) in 2004 or even earlier.

Perhaps the most important thing to remember is that people want a big flat display at a cheap price; it should look sharp and have reasonable contrast. Black level is negotiable - averaging viewing environments have sufficient light to mask minor shortcomings.

The market winner is easily predictable: the victor will have a head start in production facilities, material costs (lower retail prices), desired form-factor, acceptable quality. All other considerations are academic.

According to forum rules, I only quote msrp and not some prices you might have found at some Brooklyn Sleaze-tailer on the net.

Full price at Best Buy is just 1/2 of the price you show for the 57 Samsung.

Roy

If you didn't get it by now, you will never get it.
SED is DEAD for the mainstream market.

That is your opinion sir, correct?

Have you spoken to anyone at Toshiba/Canon where they made it official
that they are abandoning SED? Please post or cite and official announcement or press release from Toshiba/Canon.


I think it is pretty easy to see.

Yes it very easy for YOU to see, because that is what you CHOOSE TO SEE.

Believe me, I am not anti-SED at all. I want the
technology to do good, but it is obvious that it isn't going
to be out in full force in 2007 and that is pretty much the death kneel.

OK, that sounds like the old saying " with friend like you who needs enemies". If you are not anti-SED, can you imagine the type of hate rhetoric that would be spewed on these boards against SED :rolleyes:

Most of America can't wait for SED to come out in 2010 with decent prices.
By then there will be better solutions on the market. Laser TV's are coming out
in late 2007 and other technology.

Again, SED is scheduled to hit the U.S. market by 2008 in time for Summer Olympics. Go back and read the article carefully, nothing in it, NOT ONE SENTENCE SUGGEST THAT TOSHIBA/CANON WILL NOT BE GOING FORWARD WITH SED.

In fact, according to the story from CNET, the folks from Toshiba/Canon still plan on going forward a U.S. demonstration of SED. Two global multinational consumer electronic giants certainly have the WAYS and MEANS to demo there product in the U.S. any time they get ready to.

MEMO: They don't need the CES to demo their product. If you read carefully the folks from Toshiba/Canon was hinting at that possibility.

According to the CNET story, not one time was it mentioned by Toshiba/Canon reps that they were going to delay the introduction of SED. If I'm wrong please cite where they said they planing on delaying the introduction of SED.

SED not being demoed at the CES has nothing whatsoever to do with any technical or business issues. It has everything to do with LITIGATION . We
don't know all the details of this litigation, WE DON"T KNOW if Toshiba/Canon were injoined not demo SED at CES, we just don't all the facts.

So you anti-SED folks please don't rush to judgment, because you don't know the facts.

SED is pretty much done as far as a market goes.

OK, maybe with should pass that on to the folks at Toshiba/Canon, since you know better than these two giants in the industry who have history of success marketing products worldwide that you said the market is dead for them, man you are brilliant.



I know you don't want to believe it, the fact is that
it's not going to be at CES and that means that TV's
with that technology won't either, which means a big
delay which means it is pretty much over for SED.

What facts have you cited, you have not cited one fact in all of your post. All you are doing is going off of what you feel or believe, you don't have in any inside information or hard fact to based your view on the future of SED. All you are doing is making an unsubstained projection, you don't really know.

Full price at Best Buy is just 1/2 of the price you show for the 57 Samsung.

Roy

I believe you are not suppose to cite prices here in the AVS forum.

According to forum rules, I only quote msrp and not some prices you might have found at some Brooklyn Sleaze-tailer on the net.

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3/pg/album/compare/0,,2076_310069731,00.html

At least quote the correct MSRP of 8k for the Pio 1080P.

and $9,999 for the 1080P panasonic 65"

http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/vModelDetail?storeId=15001&catalogId=13401&itemId=98487

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3/pg/album/compare/0,,2076_310069731,00.html

At least quote the correct MSRP of 8k for the Pio 1080P.

and $9,999 for the 1080P panasonic 65"

http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/vModelDetail?storeId=15001&catalogId=13401&itemId=98487

Initially the msrp was 10k for the Pio monitor.

10k for the Panny without the speakers and stand, about 12k with them included.

Initially the msrp was 10k for the Pio monitor.

10k for the Panny without the speakers and stand, about 12k with them included.

It does not matter what the initial MSRP was, it is what it is NOW.
This is more that what can be said about SED pricing....... :confused:
If you are going to speculate on SED pricing, at least go with current tech MSRP pricing. ;)
Maybe even go out on a limb and speculate on 2009 Flat panel pricing while you are at it. :D

It does not matter what the initial MSRP was, it is what it is NOW.
This is more that what can be said about SED pricing....... :confused:
If you are going to speculate on SED pricing, at least go with current tech MSRP pricing. ;)
Maybe even go out on a limb and speculate on 2009 Flat panel pricing while you are at it. :D

It does matter what the initial price (10k) was because it was speculation that SED sets would come it at that same price. Some were suggesting that 10k was too expensive. I simply was trying show the hypocrisy of some people by citing how some were ordering a smaller 50 inch Pio PDP, an inferior display technology to SED, while attacking SED on a speculated price.

to the guy that talked about lcd , i think you are a lcd fanboy and lcd can go as far as it can but i doublt that it will ever compare quality to crt tube weather its from motion blurr to viewing angles to BLACKNESS and yes blacks DO matter! oh and lets not forget cloudiness issues!!! :p as far as compareing sed to the other higher end tvs? i mean if your not only getting 5 inches ( thas enough reason for me to get it) but you are getting a supirior quality why people dont get it? so supirior quality 1 ms response bigger tv very thing very acttually and fianly the techonogy of crt tube in it???? what more can i say people:P:P:P

Initially the msrp was 10k for the Pio monitor.

10k for the Panny without the speakers and stand, about 12k with them included.

Let it go. You can not get a Red Ryder SED HotAir Rifle. You'd just shoot your eye out Ralphie. :)

It does matter what the initial price (10k) was because it was speculation that SED sets would come it at that same price. Some were suggesting that 10k was too expensive. I simply was trying show the hypocrisy of some people by citing how some were ordering a smaller 50 inch Pio PDP, an inferior display technology to SED, while attacking SED on a speculated price.

We are talking about two companies who have a very different mindset than Pioneer.
These are mass market companies.
I would like to see SED get to market at great prices but we need to be realistic about the reality of the situation SED is in. It is not just a litigation issue.

Perhaps the most valuable contribution SED technology has made so far, is the entertainment provided to viewers and contributors of the SED threads, and of course the always significant chuckles as we are informed of Nano-Proprietary Inc.'s lawsuit.

Rats are fighting over a delicious morsel on the deck of a Titanic heretofore invisible to them; it has been said, that fish do not know they swim in water.

Here's a link to a similiar size (55') Fujitsu Plasma. This is from the manufacturers. It's priced at 9k, however if you throw in another $550 you can get the optional stand bringing it to a grand total of $9,550.

http://www.plasmavision.com/P55xta51UB_specs.htm


Now this set is 720p (for those of you that just love to count pixels) and has a contrast ratio of 1,800-1.

Some of you will use your credits cards and run buy this set and be the happiest campers on the AVS forum. Nothing wrong with that, I'm sure its a pleasing display and I have heard that Fujitsu are the best Plasmas, but don't come in here an attack a 10k speculated price for a 55 inch SED set that features a vastly superior technology than PDP, with a 100,000-1 CR and 1080p (again for those of you who love to count pixels).

Let it go. You can not get a Red Ryder SED HotAir Rifle. You'd just shoot your eye out Ralphie. :) :D And as little Ralphie discovered, when he used his decoder ring, the code revealed…
be sure to drink your Ovaltine--- It said nothing about Coolade.
Some people here are choking on the Coolade.

Another article on the CES no-show:
http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=196701762

And while I have the floor, I disagree with those who think SED must come out soon or else.

SED could come out 50 years from now and be a success IF it is better and cheaper than what ever technology exists at that time.

Another article on the CES no-show:
http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=196701762

And while I have the floor, I disagree with those who think SED must come out soon or else.

SED could come out 50 years from now and be a success IF it is better and cheaper than what ever technology exists at that time.

Very good post and link. This better clears up what I've been saying about the possible reasons for SED no show at the CES. LITIGATION!!

oh btw, here's a quote
"Spokesmen from both Canon and Toshiba spokesmen declined to comment on the case as the issue is pending in court, but said that their plan to release SED TVs in the forth quarter of next year has not been changed. "

has not been changed, has not been changed, has not been changed, !!! :D :D :D

Perhaps the most valuable contribution SED technology has made so far, is the entertainment provided to viewers and contributors of the SED threads, and of course the always significant chuckles as we are informed of Nano-Proprietary Inc.'s lawsuit.

Rats are fighting over a delicious morsel on the deck of a Titanic heretofore invisible to them; it has been said, that fish do not know they swim in water.

It has kept me from replacing my old Toshiba 65" 65H80 as I had planned this year (now looking to purchase a new car instead) and extended my Service Contract on it, waiting for a SED! I did however buy 3 (yes three) Panasonic LCD sets for other rooms of the house this year. Maybe in a way this wait is good and saving us all some money?

Forget SED I'm going with the new sharps

Best to forget about them unless you have 10k to spend when they get released.
Which won't happen until summer of 08'

According to forum rules, I only quote msrp and not some prices you might have found at some Brooklyn Sleaze-tailer on the net.

1. The "MSRP Only" is not a hard and fast rule. It is acceptable to discuss current prices in non-specific terms, especially in the context of industry discussions. Many posters do, including moderators.

2. You use this rule to make disingenuous arguments regarding price comparisions and then hide behind the "rule" to avoid the discussion. Your reply to me is a perfect example

3. The numbers I stated were from perfectly reputable and mainstream stores. If you would spend 5 minutes (like I did) to look up the current prices, you would know this.

Bottom line, the forum rule does not change anything in my post and is hardly a defense for addressing a real issue facing SED.

How exactly will SED compete against similar products that are larger and half the price?

Bruce

I think it's very disappointing that SED wont be making it to CES in January but since it's not coming out till 2008 formally, it's understandable. The bottom line is this: Toshiba needs to set a hard deadline on when this stuff is going to be truly unveiled. A poster somewhere in the forum said that one more delay could kill SED and Im inclined to believe that opinion. Heck by the time SED comes out, 1080p plasmas and LCD's will be costing much less. The volume game does play to the favor of those manufacturing and those shopping for lcd's and plasmas. I am very excited about SED but if we have to keep waiting for it and if the initial price difference is a little too staggering, Im pretty sure that I wont be the only person to defect to the plasma market instead, especially since Im sure plasma PQ will have improved by then.

1. The "MSRP Only" is not a hard and fast rule. It is acceptable to discuss current prices in non-specific terms, especially in the context of industry discussions. Many posters do, including moderators.

2. You use this rule to make disingenuous arguments regarding price comparisions and then hide behind the "rule" to avoid the discussion.



Quoted for posterity. :D

And I'm pretty sure he already knows all of this. He just likes to embrace a cause, defend it no matter what, relishing the argumentative challenge of it all. I recall Auditor55 coming into this forum a couple years ago, railing against plasmas (and championing rear-projection, or something) and generally annoying the snot out of people in the process. Eventually, he made peace with plasma technology, even to the point of purchasing one for himself.

This too shall pass.

I'll be curious to see what display-tech cause he'll be taking up next. But I fear we'll have a long wait, as he's gone and dug his heels in too deeply to extricate himself from this one anytime soon.

Why all this goo goo gaa gaaing over a tech that isn't even out yet?

When it comes out, yes... go nuts over it. Woohoo, let's have a party? But playing this waiting game must totally suck. Like... LA Clippers suck.

SED will probably be sweet, if it ever hits the market. But the tech coming out now is pretty darn good too. On the plus side? It's affordable... and it's AVAILABLE.

I dunno how much fun a person can have reminiscing about how black the blacks were at some demo reel.

Toshiba and Canon have invested too much time and money in SED for it not to see the light of day. The technology is sound and the only issue right now seems to be a legal one (IMHO a week one at that). I'm not sure if SED will be available for sale anywhere in the world in Q4 2007, but i'm pretty confident that it will be by end of Q1 2008 or early Q2 2008. I think too much is being made about the "supposed" price of SED:

10K will no doubt translate to 6K street (just like the Pioneer) and I would fully expect the 55" SED to be between 4999.99$ and 5999.99$ street when it's released. The "high" price won't realy hurt it as equivalent or simililar quality displays will probably be around 4K (I think Toshiba will stay in line with pricing no more then 50% higher compared to similar products). Since demand on SED will be higher than supply for quite a while i'm sure they will sell them as fast as they can produce them... that's assuming the final SED product is what we believe it will be: superior and solid.

Eventually, if and when higher yields are achieved, i'm sure prices will get sufficiently in line for the average consumer to at least consider SED.
SED may never be as mainstream as LCD or Plasma but I believe it can make a dent and eventualy become a significant percentage of the flat panel display business... perhaps even eventually eliminating one of it's 2 closest competitors tough never both as the one remaining would most likely always maintain a price advantage due to the sheer volume of production.

Toshiba's SEDs gong to be a "no show" at CES this year:

linky: http://news.com.com/Toshibas+SED+TV+a+no-show+at+electronics+show/2100-1041_3-6145540.html?tag=ne.gall.related

That giant sucking sound you hear is the last few SED vapors evaporating . . . .Toshiba/Canon spends billions to develop SED technology but won't fork over a measly couple of grand to keep hyping their prototype(s) at CES... what's up with that? :p

Here is the link to some more detail on the leagal issue. The problem appears to be Cannon does not have the right to give Toshiba the technology it licensened from a third party..

http://www.digitaltvdesignline.com/blogs/index.jhtml

It may be just a leagal issue but it effectively removes SED from my expectations about what new technology to look for in 2007. I am either going to get a cheap plasma after CES or wait for the laser projection sets next summer (hopefully).

Toshiba and Canon have invested too much time and money in SED for it not to see the light of day. The technology is sound and the only issue right now seems to be a legal one (IMHO a week one at that). I'm not sure if SED will be available for sale anywhere in the world in Q4 2007, but i'm pretty confident that it will be by end of Q1 2008 or early Q2 2008. I think too much is being made about the "supposed" price of SED If and when this "waiting for SED" day arrives, the prices have to be much lower than the current speculations. Otherwise, who will care?

In the summer of 2008, hopefully when this monotonous "ground hog day" is finally over, for me, to be watching the Olympics in Beijing on a 55 inch SED, it will not have cost me more than 4g’s and it will be better than any current plasma or LCD available. If not- then I’m sure I’ll be enjoying Synchronized Swimming on a different, better, cheaper display.

Here is the link to some more detail on the leagal issue. The problem appears to be Cannon does not have the right to give Toshiba the technology it licensened from a third party..

http://www.digitaltvdesignline.com/blogs/index.jhtml

It may be just a leagal issue but it effectively removes SED from my expectations about what new technology to look for in 2007. I am either going to get a cheap plasma after CES or wait for the laser projection sets next summer (hopefully).

It's not like the patent holder wants to make these things. They just want a piece of the action.

It's not like the patent holder wants to make these things. They just want a piece of the action.


The 'piece' that they want can be quite substantial :eek: Case in point is the NTP (patent holder) suit against RIM (Manufacture and risk taker) - that took $647 MILLION to settle.

sticky

Will this thread be 100 pages long in 2010 and if the plug is pulled on SED then should it even take up space in the archives?

SED will not be a consumer product for the foreseeable future.
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20061225/125850/

Explains the lack of interest in CES.

Looks like I'll have to get a 3rd gen SXRD instead.

SED will not be a consumer product for the foreseeable future.
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20061225/125850/

Explains the lack of interest in CES.Wow :( bummer, straight out of the horses mouth.

Dang. I guess I'll be looking at plasma displays next year. The sales trends wherein LCD is slowly taking over the TV market are discouraging for those of us that really care about colour fidelity and black-level performance. If LCD doesn't get dramatically better in these areas, but succeeds in sending plasma technology the way of the CRT, ugh.

SED will not be a consumer product for the foreseeable future.
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20061225/125850/

Explains the lack of interest in CES.

Well, why the hell couldn't they have just told us that when they announced that they were not going to show SED at the upcoming CES. No point in displaying something at a Consumer Show that you will not make for Consumers!.

So, never mind Canon, like I have often pointed out, they have never made consumer TVs, but where does Toshiba now stand in the Consumer TV business. It does seem a bit counter productive for this Toshiba Honco to be knocking Plasma and LCD at the same time that he is declaring that they have no plans to offer anything better to the TV consumer market.

Well, since Toshiba has declared SED TVs will not be introduced, isn't it time to shut down this thread. SED is not dead. It was never born. RIP :)

since Toshiba has declared SED TVs will not be introduced, isn't it time to shut down this thread. SED is not dead. It was never born. RIP :)

no...in fact is was made a sticky based on number of views: I would not declare SED dead...yet

as part of the split, we promised more new technology threads:

SNIP

Well, since Toshiba has declared SED TVs will not be introduced, isn't it time to shut down this thread. SED is not dead. It was never born. RIP :)[/QUOTE]
This is OH so true. Really a shame since i think it would have been a fantastic product. so what now? Jump to laser dlp or 9th gen plasma? sorry to see this thread go, but it is useless now unless you are in the broadcast industry. I am thinking laser dlp will be the way to go. According to Mits. they will be able to make them as slim as 7-8 inches and half the weight of plasma so wall mounting is no problem. Color gamut is well above lcd (not a fan at all) and plasma. Could this be the "interim" way to go.......

Nishida indicated that Toshiba is not planning to bring SED to the current consumer TV market.


Big news, indeed. Too bad for SED.

SNIP

Well, since Toshiba has declared SED TVs will not be introduced, isn't it time to shut down this thread. SED is not dead. It was never born. RIP :)
This is OH so true. Really a shame since i think it would have been a fantastic product. so what now? Jump to laser dlp or 9th gen plasma? sorry to see this thread go, but it is useless now unless you are in the broadcast industry. I am thinking laser dlp will be the way to go. According to Mits. they will be able to make them as slim as 7-8 inches and half the weight of plasma so wall mounting is no problem. Color gamut is well above lcd (not a fan at all) and plasma. Could this be the "interim" way to go.......[/QUOTE]

Since you ask: look at some posts that were made on this thread by a member named Astrobuf. He saw the 55inch SED Demo in Japan, and also saw a Pioneer Plasma with 20,000 to 1 contrast claimed. He said that the Pioneer looked great. Check out his posts. If it is nearly as good as the Stats and Astrobuf claim it is, it should be coming out sometime next year. Those who plan on attending the upcoming CES might want to scope out the Pioneer, and report back on what they thought about it. The more specific performance stats, pricing, and release date information that you can obtain, the better. Pictures also, please. :)

The upcoming Pioneers w/their 20,000:1 contrast are the displays I am keeping an eye on. Can't wait for the reports from CES 2007 in a few weeks. As for SED...well... several members here including myself saw the handwriting on the wall, so there's no surprise here.

BUT, SED isn't quite dead, but rather it seems headed for the ultra high-end broadcasting professional market as a reference monitor. I own several smaller 13" Sony professional/broadcast reference CRT's, and I can tell you their analog PQ beat the socks off my consumer XBR. Eventually perhaps, SED will trickle down to us mere consumers, but we're talking at least 5-7 years down the road. Still, SED is vaporware, and remains delegated to the realm of "future tech" that may or may not ever actually be in production.

After all this teasing, SED Inc. announces it actually plans on not bringing this technology to consumers. They want to sell it first to studios for god knows how much. This is understandable, yet disappointing. Oh well, I guess that officially eliminates SED from my list of technologies to watch.

"We will release a product, but it will be pricey." Atsutoshi Nishida, President of Toshiba Corp. commented so about the "SED (surface-conducting electron-emitter display)" at the company's year-end press gathering. He said the first shipment of SED products is "slated for fall 2007."

Toshiba plans to start shipping SED products in fall 2007, but considers focusing on professional users at first, positioning the SED as a "limited, pricey, high-end" product. Nishida said the company's plan to build an SED volume-production facility in Himeji is "advancing on track." However, saying the SED is not "competitive against the LCD TV" in the market for consumer TVs, Nishida indicated that Toshiba is not planning to bring SED to the current consumer TV market. (http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20061225/125850/)

Sounds like a good return on the $1.7 billion :eek: Toshiba/Canon invested in developing SED technology. :rolleyes: The good news is... we don't have to worry about having buyer's remorse when we get our 1080p PDPs. :D

SED will not, unfortunately, 'make it'. Neither will plasma, front or rear projection (lasers included), and probably not even OLED.

It is useful to remember that the display market, long owned by the CRT, has since its inception been dominated by a single technology, with others existing in their small niches around the edges.

There is no reason to expect this dynamic to change; furthermore, LCD is widely recognized by the industry to be the technology of choice for future market dominance.

LCD production has had many years to work out bugs, make general improvements, and most importantly rationalize production and construct fabrication facilities which vastly outcapacitize those of its nearest competitor (plasma). Furthermore, the materials cost of LCD is fundamentally lower than that of plasma.

Finally, the LCD market has a very wide range of applications (market diversity), which when combined with fabrication flexibility, mean very positive effects for production efficiency, investment risk, and market expansion opportunities.

None of LCD's competitors have any of these advantages; perhaps most significantly, none have the mass-production head start required to play in today's display market, including SED. It was already too late for SED to be anything other than an extremely small niche player (at best) in 2004 or even earlier.

Perhaps the most important thing to remember is that people want a big flat display at a cheap price; it should look sharp and have reasonable contrast. Black level is negotiable - averaging viewing environments have sufficient light to mask minor shortcomings.

The market winner is easily predictable: the victor will have a head start in production facilities, material costs (lower retail prices), desired form-factor, acceptable quality. All other considerations are academic.
All well said:

Most markets are dominated by unified acceptance of form. Diamonds are great, yet the niche for sapphires and emeralds is strong enough to support them. Indeed, there is little reason not to believe that LCD will win out. Overcoming bugs while improving PQ incrementally; amortization of R&D and manufacturing facilities to allow market busting downward price pressure with ever expanding production and penetration; these are the primary arguments in favor of placing one's bet on LCD. That still does not mean that the niches won't be filled by other techs, albeit at vastly higher prices. (Anyone want to compare the potential price of a 100" plasma to a 100" LCD, or are we just going to go with projectors at that size?)

Mostly, I agree that LCD's head start is going to be the dominating factor. That is unless Canon can find a way to make the SED tech CHEAP. It is still possible to perfect the process and undercut LCD in price.

Unless someone can figure out the viewing angle issue in RPTV its price advantage will keep it alive only until LCDs become competitive in price as contrast continues to inch up, and pixel response time inches down.

I believe that as LCD CR gets better plasma's advantage shrinks and is outwieghed by the screen reflectivity issues present for plasmas in NORMAL viewing areas, not home-theaters-of-the-insane.

To re-quote, because it is the ultimate truth of the consumer, and I can't state it any clearer myself: "Perhaps the most important thing to remember is that people want a big flat display at a cheap price; it should look sharp and have reasonable contrast. Black level is negotiable - averaging viewing environments have sufficient light to mask minor shortcomings."

Just as gamers drive computer [graphics] platforms, yet Joe Average buys eMachines; so does the videophile drive the leading edge of display tech while Joe Consumer is grabbing Vizios and Olevias that few of us who post here would consider. Joe Regularguy will determine the winner here, by dint of pricing. If SED gets there Joe wins. If LCD is the cheapest, Joe wins. If plasmas...

Joe Consumer does not care about the last 2ms of response time, nor the diff between 8,000:1 to 100,000:1 contrast ratios. Joe wouldn't understand 3:2 pulldown if you explained it. He couldn't tell if mosquito wings on the one hand, or posterization on the other, is more detrimental to overall PQ. What he cares about is: What's the best I can get of the biggest I can find for what I can afford?

Right now the trend line is in favor of LCD. That does not mean that Joe Hometheater will not pay twice the price for an SED that is obviously better than PDP or LCD (if and when). It does mean that Joe Gotawifeandkids will not.

Again, SED is scheduled to hit the U.S. market by 2008 in time for Summer Olympics. Go back and read the article carefully, nothing in it, NOT ONE SENTENCE SUGGEST THAT TOSHIBA/CANON WILL NOT BE GOING FORWARD WITH SED.

In fact, according to the story from CNET, the folks from Toshiba/Canon still plan on going forward a U.S. demonstration of SED. Two global multinational consumer electronic giants certainly have the WAYS and MEANS to demo there product in the U.S. any time they get ready to.

MEMO: They don't need the CES to demo their product. If you read carefully the folks from Toshiba/Canon was hinting at that possibility.

According to the CNET story, not one time was it mentioned by Toshiba/Canon reps that they were going to delay the introduction of SED. If I'm wrong please cite where they said they planing on delaying the introduction of SED.

What facts have you cited, you have not cited one fact in all of your post. All you are doing is going off of what you feel or believe, you don't have in any inside information or hard fact to based your view on the future of SED. All you are doing is making an unsubstained projection, you don't really know.
Auditor, your desire to see SED succeed is based on a Popular Science What's New blurb and a series of press releases reformatted by CNET as gospel.

NO ONE is going to be happier than me to see SED (or any other tech, for that matter) succeed. Competition between tech is guaranteed to yield lower prices. Regardless of the price point, I get what I pay for.

The problem underlying all of your statements is that you cannot cite any facts based upon production. You complaint about unsubstantiated projections applies equally to your conjecture about the future of SED.

The CURRENT state-of-the-art for SED is bleak. But then again, in 1959 the idea of putting a man on the moon was science fiction fantasy. Right now all SED fans have is a handful of prototypes. Yet that does not give cause to stop reaching for the stars.

I believe you are not suppose to cite prices here in the AVS forum.
Prices, relatively speaking, are relevant. If I wanted to pay $100,000 for one of the SED prototypes, and could guarantee a placement in Times Square, I am sure I could buy one. Does that constitute price talk? The AVS prohibition does not extend to B&M street prices, as they are public baselines representing reality. MSRP is no better an indicator of reality that lowball pricing from refurbmart (made up name, which may be a coincidence with an actual store's name).

Strident arguments are not made to seem any better by yelling louder.

Another article on the CES no-show:
http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=196701762

And while I have the floor, I disagree with those who think SED must come out soon or else.

SED could come out 50 years from now and be a success IF it is better and cheaper than what ever technology exists at that time.
Larry:

I quoted you here because I believe your point hits the mark, and applies to ANY emergent technology. The 'soon or else' only comes into play only if the current tech is not outgunned by the new. As LCD narrows the gap, in PQ, CR, refresh and price or else becomes more threatening to SED. Yet price will still trump all if everything else is equal.

Yo Julius, Have you read this previously posted link yet?
http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20061225/125850/

It’s over Johnny.

If and when this "waiting for SED" day arrives, the prices have to be much lower than the current speculations. Otherwise, who will care?

In the summer of 2008, hopefully when this monotonous "ground hog day" is finally over, for me, to be watching the Olympics in Beijing on a 55 inch SED, it will not have cost me more than 4g’s and it will be better than any current plasma or LCD available. If not- then I’m sure I’ll be enjoying Synchronized Swimming on a different, better, cheaper display.

and what tv would that be?

oh and the guy that said this

Toshiba and Canon have invested too much time and money in SED for it not to see the light of day. The technology is sound and the only issue right now seems to be a legal one (IMHO a week one at that). I'm not sure if SED will be available for sale anywhere in the world in Q4 2007, but i'm pretty confident that it will be by end of Q1 2008 or early Q2 2008. I think too much is being made about the "supposed" price of SED:

10K will no doubt translate to 6K street (just like the Pioneer) and I would fully expect the 55" SED to be between 4999.99$ and 5999.99$ street when it's released. The "high" price won't realy hurt it as equivalent or simililar quality displays will probably be around 4K (I think Toshiba will stay in line with pricing no more then 50% higher compared to similar products). Since demand on SED will be higher than supply for quite a while i'm sure they will sell them as fast as they can produce them... that's assuming the final SED product is what we believe it will be: superior and solid.

Eventually, if and when higher yields are achieved, i'm sure prices will get sufficiently in line for the average consumer to at least consider SED.
SED may never be as mainstream as LCD or Plasma but I believe it can make a dent and eventualy become a significant percentage of the flat panel display business... perhaps even eventually eliminating one of it's 2 closest competitors tough never both as the one remaining would most likely always maintain a price advantage due to the sheer volume of production.

i can only say :D


as far as the news being for non cosumers but only to buisness avablity it could be a pretend scheme for that company that is making the court stuff to cannon , so again we dont know until we know on 07 or 08 , i still think that sed will hit for cosumers otherwise they wouldnt of made such a big deal on open wide avability .

Auditor, your desire to see SED succeed is based on a Popular Science What's New blurb and a series of press releases reformatted by CNET as gospel.

NO ONE is going to be happier than me to see SED (or any other tech, for that matter) succeed. Competition between tech is guaranteed to yield lower prices. Regardless of the price point, I get what I pay for.

The problem underlying all of your statements is that you cannot cite any facts based upon production. You complaint about unsubstantiated projections applies equally to your conjecture about the future of SED.

The CURRENT state-of-the-art for SED is bleak. But then again, in 1959 the idea of putting a man on the moon was science fiction fantasy. Right now all SED fans have is a handful of prototypes. Yet that does not give cause to stop reaching for the stars.Well said... ;) I'd like an SED TV too, but since I am AARP eligible, about 25 years from now it won't matter. :(

and what tv would that be? .I know this is the time of year hot air is blown in the guise of predictions but don’t look to me for any prophetic statements regarding a tech purchase 17 months in the future. :)

To sharpen my original point- the market will dictate my purchase. “Market” meaning what’s available at that time and what’s the best bang for the buck at that time. This is the logical approach of any consumer. :cool:

Speculating, or arguing here, on the cost of an SED in the summer of 2008 is like debating where in Chicago, should the museum be built, to house their World Series memorabilia. (pardon my analogy cubby fans) :D

This latest annoucement is indeed a set back for videophiles world wide as we are stuck with PDP and LCD (yuk :eek: ) for look like a long time. I feared something like this would happen. That the display technology world would be set back into a dark era where poor blacks, poor shadow detail, dithering, color banding, poor refresh rates, video noise, motion blur, oversaturated colors, screen door effect, fill factor issues, Silk Screen Effect, energy consumption, will remain the order of the day. All of this junk that we tolerate and try to pretend we don't see it so that we can love our displays would have been eliminated with the consumer introduction of SED. Fortunately for the professional world they will blessed with this most awesome display technology.

I know that many of you are happy with PDP, but if PDP is the best display technology available today, this is indeed a sad day for global videophiles and are our quest for the holy grail of display technology. A set back video perfection, and continuation of the plethora display technology flaws.

I want my SED TV!!

The upcoming Pioneers w/their 20,000:1 contrast are the displays I am keeping an eye on. Can't wait for the reports from CES 2007 in a few weeks.

Still, plasma has poor fill factor, dithering, color banding, noise and black level issues. There is no way you can convince anyone who knows anything about display technology that PDP is equal to SED, SED is superior to PDP in every way.

Plasma has reached peak performance people, its not going to get any better. PDP is what it is. Pioneer can throw out some inflated 20,000-1 CR but even that does do away with all the other flaws inherent in PDP technology.

so anything in terms of better quality in techonogy comin in soon ? or we just have to wait and find out on sed?

"Wired" News has just released its "Top 10 Vaporware 2006"...SED is #5 on the list.

Auditor55, not to interupt your period of bereavement, but can I have what you're smoking? PLEASE!:D

"Wired" News has just released its "Top 10 Vaporware 2006"...SED is #5 on the list.

Auditor55, not to interupt your period of bereavement, but can I have what you're smoking? PLEASE!:D

I need a drink :(

Well that's just peachy. Looks like I'll be keeping my KV-40xbr800 until it explodes.

"Wired" News has just released its "Top 10 Vaporware 2006"...SED is #5 on the list.

Auditor55, not to interupt your period of bereavement, but can I have what you're smoking? PLEASE!:D :eek: Oh boy, you really know how to kick a guy when he’s already down. :D
I guess you had it coming Auddy...
but in the end, we’re all in the same boat.
We're all looking for the best. That's why we're here. :cool:

He needs to change his SIG to: SED is coming....and so is Christmas. :D

Hey..... I got an etch-a-sketch for Christmas......... wonder what the resolution and pixel count is on that? I dare anyone to call that vaporware.

All well said:


Just as gamers drive computer [graphics] platforms, yet Joe Average buys eMachines; Joe Regularguy will determine the winner here..
What he cares about is: What's the best I can get of the biggest I can find for what I can afford?



thats probably true.... i hate that guy.

as far as lcds being the future like everybody says, i think they have hit a brick wall. iquid crystals are already being overdriven to the point of burn in. the new 120 hz lcds still cant get rid of ghosting. viewing angles and contrast ratios have not improved as much as the deceptive marketing techniques to make it seem they have. but i ramble....


BYE SED! I LOVE YOU......*takes dagger and plunges into chest*

Does this mean there is no 15" coming out soon that will be an upgrade over a still good looking 20 yr. old 13" Sony crt with decent black level?

At first I wasn't sure if I wanted to spend the extra money. But since I was ordering an unproven first generation technology, I opted to spend the additional cost.

Since I placed my order with that well know online vendor who always has everything in stock but frequently can not get it out of the warehouse, and now that Toshiba has announced that they will not be manufacturing a consumer model of SED, my decision to purchase an extend service contract on my first SED has really paid off. Yes Sir; the best money I ever spent. I now have four years of worry free coverage on my SED order. But you know how these things always work out. Now that I have paid for the extended coverage, odds are that during the next four years I will not experience a single malfunction on the SED . :D

Any chance of LED NON WOBULATED DLP becoming a reality?

Any chance of LED NON WOBULATED DLP becoming a reality?

I'm still waiting for 3 chip DLP :(

thats probably true.... i hate that guy.

as far as lcds being the future like everybody says, i think they have hit a brick wall. iquid crystals are already being overdriven to the point of burn in. the new 120 hz lcds still cant get rid of ghosting. viewing angles and contrast ratios have not improved as much as the deceptive marketing techniques to make it seem they have. but i ramble....


BYE SED! I LOVE YOU......*takes dagger and plunges into chest*

I'm just sick, what is a videophile to do now. The thought of LCD becoming the standard is sickening, this the worst possible news I could have heard.

PDP is your only hope now.... :D

Yep, a Pioneer 60"er 1080p Elite w/HDMI 1.3 & 20,000:1 contrast ratio sounds pretty sweet about now. Anxiously awaiting news from CES 2007.

Yep, a Pioneer 60"er 1080p Elite w/HDMI 1.3 & 20,000:1 contrast ratio sounds pretty sweet about now. Anxiously awaiting news from CES 2007.

hahaha whats the price on those????? and even if they said sed was aimed at buiness that doesnt mean it doesnt keep us from buying them lol how much is the price we still looking at sed?

Yep, a Pioneer 60"er 1080p Elite w/HDMI 1.3 & 20,000:1 contrast ratio sounds pretty sweet about now. Anxiously awaiting news from CES 2007.

Don't forget 1080p/24 input via HDMI and a refresh rate of 72 Hz (or some other even multiple).

Also, I expect Panasonic will have units with equivalent specs, as they are always competitive.

CES 2007 should be interesting.

hahaha whats the price on those????? and even if they said sed was aimed at buiness that doesnt mean it doesnt keep us from buying them lol how much is the price we still looking at sed?

Yes, I'm somewhat ticked off that the top-tier PDP Mfg'ers are reverting back to 2002 pricing w/this new 1080p displays. It sucks big time. BUT, I also think this jump in early adopter pricing will be short-lived, especially w/LCD pricing actually going down to a closer competitive price. The Fujitsu Aviamo's & Pioneer Elites will have to drop their prices to compete w/LCD. This is where I'll miss SED too, as this would've brought in another flat panel video tech for even stiffer competition. I'm really not happy to see SED fail, but this has been a familar story in CE Biz since day one, and I've been down that road before.

:cool: ^^^ Agree 100%

Don't forget 1080p/24 input via HDMI and a refresh rate of 72 Hz (or some other even multiple).

Also, I expect Panasonic will have units with equivalent specs, as they are always competitive.

CES 2007 should be interesting.

I hope we hear from Panasonic. They have a tendency toward being tight-lipped about future products that may hurt the sales of the current offer. I do not believe the 657UY was shown at CES the year it was shipped.

- Rich

This is unbelieveable.....incomprehensible!!! :mad:

SED MUST be available for consumers. Jesus, I have been waiting for SED to be a reality for a long time and....now I hear that it is vaporware?!? It can't be. I mean, this can't be happening. I can't fathom the idea that the SED tv will never come to my living room. What the HELL is Toshiba/Canon doing? They know that today's tv technology is lackluster and still they freaking screw the people who have been waiting for years to get their hands on a vastly superior tv technology. Lidigation problems? Heh...right. I really don't know what Toshiba's President in Japan was saying, but I don't believe it. The company invested billions of dollars in SED and was showing it to the public in the shows and constantly told us that it will come out this month....then that month...then this month...and all that for what?? For telling us now that "oh, it won't be available to consumers, only professionals"?!?! I don't buy it.

Nothing is set in stone yet for the fate of the SED. Toshiba hasn't publically announced that it will delay SED or even make it not available to us. There is still a glimmer of hope, but that glimmer is looking dim. :( All we can do now is what we have been doing all along....wait. I know Auditor55 is feeling bad right now, but I say don't give up hope. Just because we will not see it in CES and just because we hear all this info about the SED being vaporware doesn't mean that it will not come to fuition. SED could be a reality. Despite the recent negative news. Billions of dollars is a lot of money.....Toshiba can't just throw it in the toilet.....

Oh and just one more thing....even if SED will not be available to consumers, there will be ways of obtaining one nonetheless. It probably involves spending a lot of moolah, but SED will be a reality for those who REALLY want it. (Like me and Auditor55)

SED......please don't die :( :( :(

I need a drink :(

I don't think I really have to reply to my other post in this thread.
I told you what would happen and it is happening.

SED was dead because it has taken too long to get on the market
and it is simply too expensive for normal people to buy.

SED needed to get on the market quick so that it would not lose it's window
of opertunity and it needed to be significantly cheaper than the other solutions
available.

My hope is for some new technology to happen at CES 2007
(maybe LaserTV or maybe not, but something at least).

That reminds me, where is FED and NED?

We can wait the rest of our lives away,
it doesn't make sense.

I hate to say I told you so, but I told you so.

This latest annoucement is indeed a set back for videophiles world wide as we are stuck with PDP and LCD (yuk :eek: ) for look like a long time. I feared something like this would happen. That the display technology world would be set back into a dark era where poor blacks, poor shadow detail, dithering, color banding, poor refresh rates, video noise, motion blur, oversaturated colors, screen door effect, fill factor issues, Silk Screen Effect, energy consumption, will remain the order of the day. All of this junk that we tolerate and try to pretend we don't see it so that we can love our displays would have been eliminated with the consumer introduction of SED. Fortunately for the professional world they will blessed with this most awesome display technology.

I know that many of you are happy with PDP, but if PDP is the best display technology available today, this is indeed a sad day for global videophiles and are our quest for the holy grail of display technology. A set back video perfection, and continuation of the plethora display technology flaws.

I want my SED TV!!

I just ran across this thread (disclaimer--normally I follow the XBR2 threads).

I guess I have to voice some concern about your claims. If you will include projection technology --how about the Sony version of LCOS. The Sony SXRD does not have many of the problems you site.

These 9 items on your long list are not problems with the XBR2 SXRD technology:
poor shadow detail,
dithering,
color banding,
poor refresh rates,
video noise,
motion blur,
oversaturated colors,
screen door effect,
fill factor issues

These 3 are legitimate:
Poor blacks (but only somewhat poor)
Silk Screen Effect,
energy consumption

This 1 problem you missed and is a legitimate concern for high quality images as covered in the Pearl and Ruby threads:
Color non-uniformity -unless dialed in by William Phelps.

My opinion of course after owning and following the XBR1 and 2 carefully for almost 1 year --your mileage may vary.

KT

i cant wait for Rogo's much deserved "I told you so..."

This is unbelieveable.....incomprehensible!!! :mad:

SED MUST be available for consumers. Jesus, I have been waiting for SED to be a reality for a long time and....now I hear that it is vaporware?!? It can't be. I mean, this can't be happening. I can't fathom the idea that the SED tv will never come to my living room. What the HELL is Toshiba/Canon doing? They know that today's tv technology is lackluster and still they freaking screw the people who have been waiting for years to get their hands on a vastly superior tv technology. Lidigation problems? Heh...right. I really don't know what Toshiba's President in Japan was saying, but I don't believe it. The company invested billions of dollars in SED and was showing it to the public in the shows and constantly told us that it will come out this month....then that month...then this month...and all that for what?? For telling us now that "oh, it won't be available to consumers, only professionals"?!?! I don't buy it.

Nothing is set in stone yet for the fate of the SED. Toshiba hasn't publically announced that it will delay SED or even make it not available to us. There is still a glimmer of hope, but that glimmer is looking dim. :( All we can do now is what we have been doing all along....wait. I know Auditor55 is feeling bad right now, but I say don't give up hope. Just because we will not see it in CES and just because we hear all this info about the SED being vaporware doesn't mean that it will not come to fuition. SED could be a reality. Despite the recent negative news. Billions of dollars is a lot of money.....Toshiba can't just throw it in the toilet.....

Oh and just one more thing....even if SED will not be available to consumers, there will be ways of obtaining one nonetheless. It probably involves spending a lot of moolah, but SED will be a reality for those who REALLY want it. (Like me and Auditor55)

SED......please don't die :( :( :(


Wow, talk about living in denial.

Perhaps the reason they are now trying to downplay the target market is to reduce the settlement/payoff to the patent holders. If they continue with the push of a SED for everyone, the litigants will want a much larger settlment as the market valuation will be in the billions.

Sssh......don't tell anyone ;)

How much is a "professional" 42" or 50" SED?

How much is a "professional" 42" or 50" SED?

That could be anybody's guess, but a professional reference quality SED most likely will not have tuners & speakers (similar to Pioneer's FHD1). Noting Toshiba's Prez, and reading that SED could not compete in the current or near future pricing game of Plasma & LCD, and this is when Fujitsu's Aviamo 1080p 65"er is scheduled to be released w/a $23,000 price tag, I would have to guess that the price will fall on the "very expensive" side.

This is indeed sad news, as I agree that all the current flat panel technologies are lackluster. LCD has way too many inherent problems with the technology, Plasma is closest to CRT/SED but still has quite a way to go. I say this because I recently bought a Panasonic TH-42PX6U and I am routinely disappointed by its black levels (even though I think that they are about the best you can get right now), I was thinking of going back to a Panasonic CRT HDTV but I always told myself, "but SED will be out soon anyway", I guess not, time to start looking for a nice 34" CRT HDTV.

This is unbelieveable.....incomprehensible!!! :mad:

SED MUST be available for consumers. Jesus, I have been waiting for SED to be a reality for a long time and....now I hear that it is vaporware?!? It can't be. I mean, this can't be happening. I can't fathom the idea that the SED tv will never come to my living room. What the HELL is Toshiba/Canon doing? They know that today's tv technology is lackluster and still they freaking screw the people who have been waiting for years to get their hands on a vastly superior tv technology. Lidigation problems? Heh...right. I really don't know what Toshiba's President in Japan was saying, but I don't believe it. The company invested billions of dollars in SED and was showing it to the public in the shows and constantly told us that it will come out this month....then that month...then this month...and all that for what?? For telling us now that "oh, it won't be available to consumers, only professionals"?!?! I don't buy it.

Nothing is set in stone yet for the fate of the SED. Toshiba hasn't publically announced that it will delay SED or even make it not available to us. There is still a glimmer of hope, but that glimmer is looking dim. :( All we can do now is what we have been doing all along....wait. I know Auditor55 is feeling bad right now, but I say don't give up hope. Just because we will not see it in CES and just because we hear all this info about the SED being vaporware doesn't mean that it will not come to fuition. SED could be a reality. Despite the recent negative news. Billions of dollars is a lot of money.....Toshiba can't just throw it in the toilet.....

Oh and just one more thing....even if SED will not be available to consumers, there will be ways of obtaining one nonetheless. It probably involves spending a lot of moolah, but SED will be a reality for those who REALLY want it. (Like me and Auditor55)

SED......please don't die :( :( :(

Yes, the thought of LCD dominating the display technology market is sickening. I believe there will be videophiles willing to spend $$$ to get there hands on SED.

Auditor55,

How do you know that SED did not have some other equally bad problem as the ones you listed below.

I mean, they never let the public get close to one. It was what I call "demoware" (one step above vaporware) in that it only could be shown in highly controlled circumstances and then from a distance. You couldn't get up close to one, you couldn't see anything more than a very short very contrived demo loop. They obviously did not trust anyone seeing it in a totally uncontrolled environment.

I mean they could have had, for example, a bunch of dead pixels, but how would you know when looking at a 32" 1080P display from 6 feet away?

This latest annoucement is indeed a set back for videophiles world wide as we are stuck with PDP and LCD (yuk :eek: ) for look like a long time. I feared something like this would happen. That the display technology world would be set back into a dark era where poor blacks, poor shadow detail, dithering, color banding, poor refresh rates, video noise, motion blur, oversaturated colors, screen door effect, fill factor issues, Silk Screen Effect, energy consumption, will remain the order of the day. All of this junk that we tolerate and try to pretend we don't see it so that we can love our displays would have been eliminated with the consumer introduction of SED. Fortunately for the professional world they will blessed with this most awesome display technology.

I know that many of you are happy with PDP, but if PDP is the best display technology available today, this is indeed a sad day for global videophiles and are our quest for the holy grail of display technology. A set back video perfection, and continuation of the plethora display technology flaws.

I want my SED TV!!

Yes, the thought of LCD dominating the display technology market is sickening. I believe there will be videophiles willing to spend $$$ to get there hands on SED.


I would be the first to buy into SED but this is a big setback:

and agree LCD's still have a long way to go

Plasmas still seem to do it best despite their limitations in my opinion

Auditor55,

How do you know that SED did not have some other equally bad problem as the ones you listed below.

I mean, they never let the public get close to one. It was what I call "demoware" (one step above vaporware) in that it only could be shown in highly controlled circumstances and then from a distance. You couldn't get up close to one, you couldn't see anything more than a very short very contrived demo loop. They obviously did not trust anyone seeing it in a totally uncontrolled environment.

I mean they could have had, for example, a bunch of dead pixels, but how would you know when looking at a 32" 1080P display from 6 feet away?


I see the buzzards are circling and the "I told you so's" are rolling in. Anyway, there were many people from the video display technology press who had seen the SED demos and reported how amazing the technology was. Those demos wasn't some clandestine operation as you make it sound.

We need this display technology for the future, some how some way we need to get this technology to the consumer.

I would be the first to buy into SED but this is a big setback:

and agree LCD's still have a long way to go

Plasmas still seem to do it best despite their limitations in my opinion


Well I have my Panny Plasma now so I might as well get the best out it as it seems its going to be a long time before any new technology supplants it.

I just ran across this thread (disclaimer--normally I follow the XBR2 threads).

I guess I have to voice some concern about your claims. If you will include projection technology --how about the Sony version of LCOS. The Sony SXRD does not have many of the problems you site.

These 9 items on your long list are not problems with the XBR2 SXRD technology:
poor shadow detail,
dithering,
color banding,
poor refresh rates,
video noise,
motion blur,
oversaturated colors,
screen door effect,
fill factor issues

These 3 are legitimate:
Poor blacks (but only somewhat poor)
Silk Screen Effect,
energy consumption

This 1 problem you missed and is a legitimate concern for high quality images as covered in the Pearl and Ruby threads:
Color non-uniformity -unless dialed in by William Phelps.

My opinion of course after owning and following the XBR1 and 2 carefully for almost 1 year --your mileage may vary.

KT

I'm really surprised that you would cite poor blacks a concern for Lcos, most people feel that Lcos blacks, particulary with the SXRD's, is a strong point.

I see the buzzards are circling and the "I told you so's" are rolling in. Anyway, there were many people from the video display technology press who had seen the SED demos and reported how amazing the technology was. Those demos wasn't some clandestine operation as you make it sound.

We need this display technology for the future, some how some way we need to get this technology to the consumer.

Many of the press can be wow'ed by anything, many of them are not that technical. I never ready anywhere of anyone getting to try out one of these sets and publish the results. If you have a good source, please point to it From what I can tell, the press got to see the same contrived demo's shown at CES.

What is the closest you ever got to a SED set while it was running? What is the longest demo you ever got to see?

Many of the press can be wow'ed by anything, many of them are not that technical. I never ready anywhere of anyone getting to try out one of these sets and publish the results. If you have a good source, please point to it From what I can tell, the press got to see the same contrived demo's shown at CES.

What is the closest you ever got to a SED set while it was running? What is the longest demo you ever got to see?

You know in civil litigation the burden of proof is by a preponderance of the evidence.

In both SED threads, we have cited over and over again links to various SED demos, demos that included not only the 37 inch SED sets but also the recent SED demos, that included the latest 55 inch 100,000-1 CR SED set, that was shown before standing room only crowds in Japan. We have also posted countless quotes from those who attended some of those demos who gave eyewitness testimony regarding how amazing SED is.

Now can all of those folks just be a bunch of simpletons who are easily wow'ed?

You can't find a a single person globally and or throughout cyberspace who have seen SED and have come away with something negative about the display technology. The verdict has always been unanimous, SED is simply amazing.

The issue for SED has alway been its market viability and not the display technology itself, most folks agree, lay people as well as experts, that SED display technology is remarkable.

How much is a "professional" 42" or 50" SED?

Nothing, as of now. They have not produced any. Take the latest Toshiba statement with a grain of salt. Read all the statements made by Toshiba and Canon during the past two years. None of them ever came true. Just a couple of months ago, Toshiba displayed a 55inch 1080p SED in Japan, and were telling the media that it was full speed ahead to have SED consumer sets available in Japan in 2007. Just a couple of months later: never mind, we can not do that. Since every thing that they have promised in the past has just been a crock of BS, why should we believe them now. With their past history of failed commitments, why should we have any faith that they will ever produce any kind of SED product.

The only reason for anyone to think that Toshiba is lying now, as a marketing tactic, is because the have a long history of telling prior SED falsehoods.

You can't find a a single person globally and or throughout cyberspace who have seen SED and have come away with something negative about the display technology. The verdict has always been unanimous, SED is simply amazing.. Well according to this mouth on another thread, apparently he found somebody.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=776365

I have been somewhat puzzled by the SED hype anyway a member of avs - who will remain nameless unless he decides to post - saw huge phase issues between the colors on the SED last year in Vegas on the last day of the show - and quizzed people in the booth about it - who admitted it was there - but he was the only one to question it. Until that was fixed (which no one seems to have mentioned - as no one else outside of the people on the inside have seen it)

High-end professional display with no speakers? I'd probably still buy it. SED or new car? Having seen the demo, there's no contest. (I just hope there's an HDMI jack.)

Greenland, Not quite true, and you really can't lump EVERYTHING Toshiba/Canon has said in the past regarding SED in the Bunk Category. Granted, they fibbed on the release dates, for sure. Also, they miscalculated on the pricing future of Plasma & LCD...AND, they've based too much on certain production processes being cheaper that have not seemed to have worked out properly. BUT...they have laid down some serious groundwork & money in the R&D department. They HAVE began building an actual production plant to mfg. the SED. They HAVE actual working prototype models that have been demoed at the various CE Shows around the world in front of critical viewing press. Just to throw out some Pros & Cons of exactly where SED is right now. Don't panic. Nothing wrong w/a little marketing and sales tactics when launching a brand new video tech. It's a dog eat dog world out their in CE Land. There's still alot up in the air right now, and maybe we'll learn some news soon, but I do think you can forget about having SED in your living rooms any time in the near future.

BTW, recently some reviewers at CEATEC in Japan, where the last SED 55"er was demoed, also feasted their eyes on the upcoming Pioneer 60" 1080p Plasma w/its all new 20,000:1 contrast ratio, and stated that they thought the SED & this 60"er were neck-in-neck in PQ.

You know in civil litigation the burden of proof is by a preponderance of the evidence.

An when the law is on your side you want a judge, when it is not you want an uneducated jury. I want to see the technology put through its paces by a knowledgable expert. Not a big room with hundreds of people looking at a minute or two of carefully selected content from 6 feet away. What is so unreasonable about this?

In both SED threads, we have cited over and over again links to various SED demos, demos that included not only the 37 inch SED sets but also the recent SED demos, that included the latest 55 inch 100,000-1 CR SED set, that was shown before standing room only crowds in Japan. We have also posted countless quotes from those who attended some of those demos who gave eyewitness testimony regarding how amazing SED is.

Anyone that is wowed by a short demo that is highly controlled to a mass crowd is not the opinion I would be looking to get.

Back to my key question, have you seen any report by somebody that was able to put the set through its paces? Have you seen any report by anyone that was able to use THEIR OWN content rather than the limit material provide by Canon and Toshibia?

Now can all of those folks just be a bunch of simpletons who are easily wow'ed?

Really good demoware will fool even educate people if they don't know what to look for. Ever been to a magic show? Being intelligent is won't keep you from being fooled at a magic shor or a really well controlled demo, in fact it might make it easier to fool you.

You can't find a a single person globally and or throughout cyberspace who have seen SED and have come away with something negative about the display technology. The verdict has always been unanimous, SED is simply amazing.

What I can't find is even one even cursory review by somebody that was given even 5 minutes alone with one to try it out.

The issue for SED has alway been its market viability and not the display technology itself, most folks agree, lay people as well as experts, that SED display technology is remarkable.

That may be because nobody outside of Canon and Toshiba have been able to test it out.

Until you or someone who knows what to do gets up close and personal with the technology and try out a variety of things on it, how do you know that it does not have any weaknesses?

what about OLED?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9293017&&#post9293017

Canon and Toshiba could've saved themselves about $1 billion had they hired Rogo as their consultant at the outset.

Seriously.

Just because the companies are big does not mean their multi-billion endeavors are a sure thing.

Just ask Iridium and Globalstar.

What a fiasco.

I hope that the new LED-backed LCDs will have an improved CR and the color gamut as well. Combine that with faster response times and we may have something that is watchable.

Sigh.

Who can say, for sure, how much they actually spent. It is not that, given all the other claims of theirs that we now know to be just a pile of BS, we can take their word for it. Corporations can engage in a lot of creative accounting and cost attributions that may not have much relationship to reality. You know the old adage: Figures don't lie, but liars can figure. Look at the breaking news about how Apple was doctoring the books. Very biblical indeed. Apple, Job, taking a big bite out of the forbidden fruit. Looks like someone is about to get cast out of The Garden of Thievin'. ;)

I'm really surprised that you would cite poor blacks a concern for Lcos, most people feel that Lcos blacks, particulary with the SXRD's, is a strong point.

I agree with this. It's just that while I think the Blacks on the XBR2 are good -and for me good enough -I think they are just about at the threshold. I really want to see a screen with blacks that in a fully darkened room appear similar to a Good CRT front projection system. Soon perhaps.

KT

Since we've had a bit of degriefing, now's time for some debriefing:

Even if SED had economic viability, it still has technical flaws, one of which could be overcome by a design decision, the others cannot. No need to cry over some half-baked technology when we can drool with anticipation over one that is currently in commercial production, and whose attributes reach the theoretical ideal of a display.

But first, let's see some of the SED's weaknesses:

1. Design decision: 60Hz. refresh. Though progressive-scan, viewers at various demos have reported, and screenshots reveal, a global refresh system operating at low enough frequency to be visible as flicker/strobe. Photos show what appears to be a raster-like horizontal line.

This feature has an advantage: black frames between activation pulses help clear the retina of the previous image, preventing motion smear. However, the disadvantages are there too: some people can easily see flicker or strobe (others are so sensitive they get headaches and therefore cannot use such displays), and the lack of a rock-solid image like LCD presents. Paradoxically, while strobe helps wash the retina, there is experimental evidence that it also disrupts the smooth motion tracking system in the human eye/visual cortex.
2. Fundamental Attribute: phosphors: emission spectrum. Phosphors produce only mediocre color purity. In particular, green tends to be very wideband. Red is usually the narrowest, but also tends to be greenshifted (orangish).

Both LCD with LED backlights and OLED use solid-state emitters with extremely narrow quantum emission bandwidths. They can achieve a purity far exceeding any phosphor, for truly saturated and deep red, green and blue.

To find out more about the emission spectrum of phosphors vs. LED, see the fifth post in this thread: LED lcd VS Plasma - which is better? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=727755&highlight=phosphor)
3. Fundamental Attribute: phosphors: speed. Phosphors have an exponential decay curve, and even short-duration P22 types are slow. Slow as in, many tens of ms. for decay (activation is much faster). This can be observed if on a black screen, a white object moves (even slowly); the long phosphor trail will be evident.

LCD is at this time even slower; however, breakthroughs in liquid-crystal technology may yet occur. However, phosphor decay time is a fundamental of physics that cannot be sped up.

OLED uses solid-state quantum emission, and as with all LEDs its switching speed is ridiculously fast, allowing high-speed motion with no smearing at all - impossible with all other display technologies.

Keeping in mind that one millisecond (ms) is 1000 microseconds, and that 1 microsecond is 1000 nanoseconds, and finally that 1 nanosecond is 1000 picoseconds; here are some references on OLED switching speed:

microdisplays based on III-nitride wide band-gap semiconductors put the future in our hands. (http://oemagazine.com/fromTheMagazine/jul01/ondisplay.html): ~microsecond (range)

nerac: research report: OLED: (http://asp.nerac.com/samples/oled.html) "Because OLEDs refresh in microseconds rather than milliseconds..."
Total market dominance by LCD is the medium-range market prediction; however, in the long term OLED will gradually replace it due to its many superior characteristics, in particular lower material cost. To find out more about the state of OLED technology development, feel free to drop by the OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7714953#post7714953).

Since we've had a bit of degriefing, now's time for some debriefing:

Even if SED had economic viability, it still has technical flaws, one of which could be overcome by a design decision, the others cannot. No need to cry over some half-baked technology when we can drool with anticipation over one that is currently in commercial production, and whose attributes reach the theoretical ideal of a display.

But first, let's see some of the SED's weaknesses:

1. Design decision: 60Hz. refresh. Though progressive-scan, viewers at various demos have reported, and screenshots reveal, a global refresh system operating at low enough frequency to be visible as flicker/strobe. Photos show what appears to be a raster-like horizontal line.

This feature has an advantage: black frames between activation pulses help clear the retina of the previous image, preventing motion smear. However, the disadvantages are there too: some people can easily see flicker or strobe (others are so sensitive they get headaches and therefore cannot use such displays), and the lack of a rock-solid image like LCD presents. Paradoxically, while strobe helps wash the retina, there is experimental evidence that it also disrupts the smooth motion tracking system in the human eye/visual cortex.
2. Fundamental Attribute: phosphors: emission spectrum. Phosphors produce only mediocre color purity. In particular, green tends to be very wideband. Red is usually the narrowest, but also tends to be greenshifted (orangish).

Both LCD with LED backlights and OLED use solid-state emitters with extremely narrow quantum emission bandwidths. They can achieve a purity far exceeding any phosphor, for truly saturated and deep red, green and blue.

To find out more about the emission spectrum of phosphors vs. LED, see the fifth post in this thread: LED lcd VS Plasma - which is better? (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=727755&highlight=phosphor)
3. Fundamental Attribute: phosphors: speed. Phosphors have an exponential decay curve, and even short-duration P22 types are slow. Slow as in, many tens of ms. for decay (activation is much faster). This can be observed if on a black screen, a white object moves (even slowly); the long phosphor trail will be evident.

LCD is at this time even slower; however, breakthroughs in liquid-crystal technology may yet occur. However, phosphor decay time is a fundamental of physics that cannot be sped up.

OLED uses solid-state quantum emission, and as with all LEDs its switching speed is ridiculously fast, allowing high-speed motion with no smearing at all - impossible with all other display technologies.

Keeping in mind that one millisecond (ms) is 1000 microseconds, and that 1 microsecond is 1000 nanoseconds, and finally that 1 nanosecond is 1000 picoseconds; here are some references on OLED switching speed:

microdisplays based on III-nitride wide band-gap semiconductors put the future in our hands. (http://oemagazine.com/fromTheMagazine/jul01/ondisplay.html): ~microsecond (range)

nerac: research report: OLED: (http://asp.nerac.com/samples/oled.html) "Because OLEDs refresh in microseconds rather than milliseconds..."
Total market dominance by LCD is the medium-range market prediction; however, in the long term OLED will gradually replace it due to its many superior characteristics, in particular lower material cost. To find out more about the state of OLED technology development, feel free to drop by the OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7714953#post7714953).

OLED is not even in the demo stages. I mean OLED is still a sperm that haven't even joined with a egg. :(

BTW, recently some reviewers at CEATEC in Japan, where the last SED 55"er was demoed, also feasted their eyes on the upcoming Pioneer 60" 1080p Plasma w/its all new 20,000:1 contrast ratio, and stated that they thought the SED & this 60"er were neck-in-neck in PQ.

At this same demo were the any reports of attendees getting headaches from looking at the SED demos?

Any complaints of eye fatigue?

Any reports noticeable flicker on the SED sets at the recent CEATEC?

OLED is not even in the demo stages. I mean OLED is still a sperm that haven't even joined with a egg. :(

Yikes: OLED is Organic, not Orgasmic. :)

Auditor55: "OLED is not even in the demo stages. I mean OLED is still a sperm that haven't even joined with a egg."

Contrary to your statement, OLED is long past the womb stage, left the demoscene years ago, and is now a shipping product - while it is SED that is stillborn.

OLED has only to scale to large sizes before it becomes a competitor to LCD; no fundamental aspect of the technology exists to prevent scaling.

Here is a refresher on the current state of the OLED market:

Organic electronics market to reach US$19.7 billion by 2012, says NanoMarkets (http://www.digitimes.com/NewsShow/NewsSearch.asp?DocID=00000000000000000000000000006717&query=OLED)
DisplaySearch announces strong OLED display shipments in 3Q06, Samsung SDI retakes the crown (http://www.fpdisplay.com/news_info/Shtml/20061129_11977.htm)
Samsung SDI to volume produce AM OLED in 1Q 2007 (http://www.feedsfarm.com/article/06d53af60d12dee7d626a92f417a29f32aae0ef3.html)
LCD fabs are getting involved, as they (wisely) see this as their future production:

CMO helping OLED maker CMEL improve performance (http://digitimes.com/displays/a20061128VL200.html)
Of recent interest, exactly one week ago the latest groundbreaking advancement was announced: UDC and Nippon Steel have doubled the lifetime of high-luminance (1000 cd/m^2) green OLED devices to 60,000 hours:

"While these color and efficiency characteristics have previously been reported, obtaining this performance in conjunction with improved operational lifetime is an important milestone for Universal Display and NSCC. This represents more than a two-fold increase in operational stability, key for commercial success, as compared to previously reported performance."

To find out more about the state of OLED technology development, feel free to drop by the OLED TVs: Technology Advancements Thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=7714953#post7714953).

made that thread a sticky

Auditor55: "OLED is not even in the demo stages. I mean OLED is still a sperm that haven't even joined with a egg."

Contrary to your statement, OLED is long past the womb stage, left the demoscene years ago, and is now a shipping product - while it is SED that is stillborn.

OLED has only to scale to large sizes before it becomes a competitor to LCD; no fundamental aspect of the technology exists to prevent scaling.

Here is a refresher on the current state of the OLED market:

Organic electronics market to reach US$19.7 billion by 2012, says NanoMarkets (http://www.digitimes.com/NewsShow/NewsSearch.asp?DocID=00000000000000000000000000006717&query=OLED)
DisplaySearch announces strong OLED display shipments in 3Q06, Samsung SDI retakes the crown (http://www.fpdisplay.com/news_info/Shtml/20061129_11977.htm)
Samsung SDI to volume produce AM OLED in 1Q 2007 (http://www.feedsfarm.com/article/06d53af60d12dee7d626a92f417a29f32aae0ef3.html)
LCD fabs are getting involved, as they (wisely) see this as their future production:

CMO helping OLED maker CMEL improve performance (http://digitimes.com/displays/a20061128VL200.html)
Of recent interest, exactly one week ago the latest groundbreaking advancement was announced: UDC and Nippon Steel have doubled the lifetime of high-luminance (1000 cd/m^2) green OLED devices to 60,000 hours:

"While these color and efficiency characteristics have previously been reported, obtaining this performance in conjunction with improved operational lifetime is an important milestone for Universal Display and NSCC. This represents more than a two-fold increase in operational stability, key for commercial success, as compared to previously reported performance."

Now that Markrubin has made that thread a Sticky, can you allow us to mourn SED in peace :( !!

This latest annoucement is indeed a set back for videophiles world wide as we are stuck with PDP and LCD (yuk :eek: ) for look like a long time. I feared something like this would happen. That the display technology world would be set back into a dark era where poor blacks, poor shadow detail, dithering, color banding, poor refresh rates, video noise, motion blur, oversaturated colors, screen door effect, fill factor issues, Silk Screen Effect, energy consumption, will remain the order of the day. All of this junk that we tolerate and try to pretend we don't see it so that we can love our displays would have been eliminated with the consumer introduction of SED. Fortunately for the professional world they will blessed with this most awesome display technology.

I know that many of you are happy with PDP, but if PDP is the best display technology available today, this is indeed a sad day for global videophiles and are our quest for the holy grail of display technology. A set back video perfection, and continuation of the plethora display technology flaws.

I want my SED TV!!


http://www.historybuff.com/library/refbarnum.html
It was Hannum that said, "there is a sucker born every minute". :D

Good luck Auditor55........Glad I did NOT wait. :p

OLED is not even in the demo stages. I mean OLED is still a sperm that haven't even joined with a egg. :(

Here is a working OLED screen. Granted its no 65" tv, but it is a working product for sale.
http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/watches/8e18/

Is it OK to say that SED sucks yet?

1. Design decision: 60Hz. refresh. Though progressive-scan, viewers at various demos have reported, and screenshots reveal, a global refresh system operating at low enough frequency to be visible as flicker/strobe. Photos show what appears to be a raster-like horizontal line.
FWIW, Toshiba already said that European models would run at 100Hz. Not sure about US models, but I believe they planned to run them at 120Hz.

Damn :( :( :(
Time for a Panny 1080P HDMI 1.3 plasma next year then..........

FWIW, Toshiba already said that European models would run at 100Hz. Not sure about US models, but I believe they planned to run them at 120Hz.

120Hz would be perfect. 1080P/24 24x5 =120 :)

I say let Toshiba make there $$$ back by selling the SED pannels to professionals for quadruple what they would could sell them for in the regular consumer markets (which for the most part wouldnt appreciate it). Once all the studios, labs, airports etc have been supplied, they will have perfected the manufacturing process and can then release a 2nd or 3rd gen display to the general public at a somewhat reasonable price.

Toshiba needs to make back some serious $$$ as they are about to take a blood bath with the death of HD-DVD in 2007-2008.

I think what Toshiba's doing is smart, for once... (see HD-DVD for the opposite of smart). They have a great product but cannot achieve pricing for market A so they decide to switch there target audience to market B which will eventually allow them to revisit market A... in time... This, perhaps, might be the smartest business model from all displays out there right now: Make a killing on 1st gen and continue making a killing even once it hits the consumer market... there not competing against anybody... no one else is making SED panels and if they enter the consumer market at 50% more and make no appologies about it, they can sell these panels for a good profit margin while LCD and Plasma are undercutting and killing each other. As long as they lose all illusions of grandeur and concede that this will never be the flat panel technology of the masses (which they seem to have done) they might actually succeed. If they make as much profit with a potential 10% market share then someone else's 25-30%... what's the problem.

P.S. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see SED come to market faster but it's sure looking like my next display will be a Pioneer Plasma HDMI 1.3

Can you provide any up-to-date cites to support the view that HD-DVD has lost? Here's one writer who thinks the opposite is true:

http://news.digitaltrends.com/talkback158.html

Isochroma, while I respect your opinions on OLED, there have been various threads on the Forum that link to very large problems w/this tech. I'm sure you know what they are about. OLED needs to come up w/some type of credible display other than a Dick Tracy Watch to win over any real fans away from SED.

........... but it's sure looking like my next display will be a Pioneer Plasma HDMI 1.3

Damn :( :( :(
Time for a Panny 1080P HDMI 1.3 plasma next year then..........

What's with the sudden fixation on 1.3 HDMI lately? I thought it's been fairly well established that this is a marginal improvement, at best, more marketing spin than anything else? Better color handling, or more colors, but we've already reached our human limit to discern or appreciate any additional color enhancements. And the only other thing is some audio improvements, which if I understand correctly, unless you are running your audio through your panel, this aspect will serve no purpose on a display panel?

Please correct me if I'm overlooking some important detail.

120Hz would be perfect. 1080P/24 24x5 =120 :)

I say let Toshiba make there $$$ back by selling the SED pannels to professionals for quadruple what they would could sell them for in the regular consumer markets (which for the most part wouldnt appreciate it). Once all the studios, labs, airports etc have been supplied, they will have perfected the manufacturing process and can then release a 2nd or 3rd gen display to the general public at a somewhat reasonable price.

Toshiba needs to make back some serious $$$ as they are about to take a blood bath with the death of HD-DVD in 2007-2008.

I think what Toshiba's doing is smart, for once... (see HD-DVD for the opposite of smart). They have a great product but cannot achieve pricing for market A so they decide to switch there target audience to market B which will eventually allow them to revisit market A... in time... This, perhaps, might be the smartest business model from all displays out there right now: Make a killing on 1st gen and continue making a killing even once it hits the consumer market... there not competing against anybody... no one else is making SED panels and if they enter the consumer market at 50% more and make no appologies about it, they can sell these panels for a good profit margin while LCD and Plasma are undercutting and killing each other. As long as they lose all illusions of grandeur and concede that this will never be the flat panel technology of the masses (which they seem to have done) they might actually succeed. If they make as much profit with a potential 10% market share then someone else's 25-30%... what's the problem.

P.S. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see SED come to market faster but it's sure looking like my next display will be a Pioneer Plasma HDMI 1.3

You pretty much lost me after the HD DVD comment... :rolleyes:

CruelInventions is assuming Toshiba's HD-DVD tech will not survive the competition from Blu-Ray tech, but this remains to be seen. I'm more inclined to believe that BOTH will survive and compete...for quite awhile anyway.

This rest of his post is projecting a scenario and long path to the CE backdoor through the professional applications for SED, whereby some sort of CE niche market can be achieved and built upon. Not bad...

SED will not, unfortunately, 'make it'. Neither will plasma, front or rear projection (lasers included), and probably not even OLED.

LCD is the One Ring that will rule the display world, at least in the size range between cell phone and 100-inch. In the long-term market, there is no room for competing display technologies; their existence is merely a temporary filler for niches that will become very small very quickly.

It is useful to remember that the display market, long owned by the CRT, has since its inception been dominated by a single technology, with others existing in their small niches around the edges.

There is no reason to expect this dynamic to change; furthermore, LCD is widely recognized by the industry to be the technology of choice for future market dominance.

LCD production has had many years to work out bugs, make general improvements, and most importantly rationalize production and construct fabrication facilities which vastly outcapacitize those of its nearest competitor (plasma). Furthermore, the materials cost of LCD is fundamentally lower than that of plasma.

Finally, the LCD market has a very wide range of applications (market diversity), which when combined with fabrication flexibility, mean very positive effects for production efficiency, investment risk, and market expansion opportunities.

None of LCD's competitors have any of these advantages; perhaps most significantly, none have the mass-production head start required to play in today's display market, including SED. It was already too late for SED to be anything other than an extremely small niche player (at best) in 2004 or even earlier.

Perhaps the most important thing to remember is that people want a big flat display at a cheap price; it should look sharp and have reasonable contrast. Black level is negotiable - averaging viewing environments have sufficient light to mask minor shortcomings.

The market winner is easily predictable: the victor will have a head start in production facilities, material costs (lower retail prices), desired form-factor, acceptable quality. All other considerations are academic.


I appreciate reading different thoughts but this post had a whole mountain of assumptions built into it and you would have to buy into them to make the conclusions credible.

I also wondered about some of the word combinations --- they made no sense. There were some "so whats" thrown in as well. So I am not sure what the credibility of this post is.

I would prefer someone just saying "here is my speculation: ..."

So in that light, thanks for the post.

This rest of his post is projecting a scenario and long path to the CE backdoor through the professional applications for SED, whereby some sort of CE niche market can be achieved and built upon. Not bad...

So I should remain hopeful that this most amazing display technology will eventually make it to folks like us :)

Maybe...in this biz, there's always a little hope!:D

Still, plasma has poor fill factor, dithering, color banding, noise and black level issues. There is no way you can convince anyone who knows anything about display technology that PDP is equal to SED, SED is superior to PDP in every way.

Plasma has reached peak performance people, its not going to get any better. PDP is what it is. Pioneer can throw out some inflated 20,000-1 CR but even that does do away with all the other flaws inherent in PDP technology.


Well, Audior, since plasma ain't gettin' any better and SED is dead and LCDs have all their faults, I guess I will now keep my 36 inch sony hd xbr. It does not have any of the pq problems you mention, in fact, it has greatttttt PQ ... just small. Oh well I just try to put things into perspective --- my dad would be ecstatic if he could have just seen a television in COLOR.

I was hoping that i could just buy a reasonably inexpensive (not cheap -- and there is a difference to me) plasma to tide me over to SED ... well, what is the next technology coming.

I guess all lot of those people "in the know" (r*g*, for example) must be saying to themselves, "I told you so"... :p

Still, there is no stopping a person with a lot of cash can buy those "industrial" models...

Hong.

What's with the sudden fixation on 1.3 HDMI lately? I thought it's been fairly well established that this is a marginal improvement, at best, more marketing spin than anything else? Better color handling, or more colors, but we've already reached our human limit to discern or appreciate any additional color enhancements. And the only other thing is some audio improvements, which if I understand correctly, unless you are running your audio through your panel, this aspect will serve no purpose on a display panel?

Please correct me if I'm overlooking some important detail.

We have not reached our human limit in discerning additional colors. We've reached the limit in discerning steps of color within the range that most displays can support, but the visible spectrum is significantly larger than what any commercial display can support, especially in the greens. Getting beyond 10-bit color doesn't do much for steps, but the new xvYCC color space supports defining far more colors that we can definitely see than the standard RGB color spaces. Newer TVs with the LED backlights can also support far more colors. What isn't there is the broadcast information. Currently no DVDs, HD-DVDs, or broadcasts send a feeds that make use of the xvYCC color space. So it will make a huge visual difference in what you see (I have seen non-commercial displays with sources that display the broader color spectrum and it is not a subtle difference). HDMI 1.3 is necessary for this, but not sufficient. So yes, near term it has only marginal improvements and for most of today's TVs it really doesn't gain you much. In the future though, it will support a big step in color.

You have interesting points. I've read xvYCC cameras will be available in 2007, so there will be source data. A TV with Full HD Spec, 120 Hz Frame Rate Conversion, xvYCC gamut.

Sony Develops World's First LCD TV Compliant With 'xvYCC' HR Signal Processing
http://www.physorg.com/news9684.html

I haven't read through this entire thread, so sorry if I'm making the same point someone else already has.

In 1991 - I saw a demonstration of HDTV (I was working in the satellite industry in Washington D.C.). I was blown away by pq that was lightyears beyond anything that I had ever seen before - I was convinced that as soon as your average Joe saw what I saw, they'd immediately demand that FCC mandate an immediate switch. I waited in vain for year after year for a single HDTV to be sold or a single HDTV channel.

A decade later, in 2001 or so, I became something of an early adopter and bought my first HDTV (there might have been 4 or so HDTV channels available at that time in my area). Well, anyway, I was the first of anyone I personally knew to buy one. It's nuts that it took so long - but now its clear that HDTV is here to stay.

Even the best technologies sometimes take more time than we like to get to market. I have no idea whether or not SED will make it or not - it may be too late due to competing technologies improving and getting cheaper, or may find a niche market and grow from there.

But I have to say, waiting for SED (which at best will give us an incremental improvement in pq by comparrison) is not nearly as painful as waiting for HDTV to arrive was.

I'm really surprised that you would cite poor blacks a concern for Lcos, most people feel that Lcos blacks, particulary with the SXRD's, is a strong point.


It is... I used to have a 2005 SXRD...had great looking blacks.

OK, I'll admit I don't know much about these things, but uhmm...:

-Won't an announcement like this hurt them in the stock market? What with for instance Wired placing it in fifth place of vaporware in 2006 and all.
I mean - it must be with a heavy heart (although probably with a stiff grin to keep up appearances) that they had to announce this?

From the article, they seem to want us to believe that this is what they had planned for SED all along, but we all know(?) that's ox manure. Right?

I haven't read through this entire thread, so sorry if I'm making the same point someone else already has.

In 1991 - I saw a demonstration of HDTV (I was working in the satellite industry in Washington D.C.). I was blown away by pq that was lightyears beyond anything that I had ever seen before - I was convinced that as soon as your average Joe saw what I saw, they'd immediately demand that FCC mandate an immediate switch. I waited in vain for year after year for a single HDTV to be sold or a single HDTV channel.

A decade later, in 2001 or so, I became something of an early adopter and bought my first HDTV (there might have been 4 or so HDTV channels available at that time in my area). Well, anyway, I was the first of anyone I personally knew to buy one. It's nuts that it took so long - but now its clear that HDTV is here to stay.

Even the best technologies sometimes take more time than we like to get to market. I have no idea whether or not SED will make it or not - it may be too late due to competing technologies improving and getting cheaper, or may find a niche market and grow from there.

But I have to say, waiting for SED (which at best will give us an incremental improvement in pq by comparrison) is not nearly as painful as waiting for HDTV to arrive was.

Similar experience for me, but rather it was around 1993 or '94, my wife & I were at a State Fair and visiting one of the Exhibit Buildings came upon a HDTV demonstration by Toshiba. The HD pic wowed me for sure, and from the people doing the demonstration gave the impression that HDTV was just around the corner and would be available within 18-24 months. That waiting game stretched out to 7 years before HDTV was available in my area, and then was very limited. I was the first person within my circle of friends and family that took advantage of HDTV. Waiting for SED is child's play by comparison, especially when you see the current competing video tech producing really nice PQ on their displays w/each new generation getting even better & better.

........... So it will make a huge visual difference in what you see (I have seen non-commercial displays with sources that display the broader color spectrum and it is not a subtle difference). HDMI 1.3 is necessary for this, but not sufficient. So yes, near term it has only marginal improvements and for most of today's TVs it really doesn't gain you much. In the future though, it will support a big step in color.

So it sounds like it will be at least, at least, a few years before we even get to a point when content providers start utilizing the extra color space, or whatever the correct phraseology, in any significant quantity. Plus, I have a difficult time believing that this improvement will be so much better than the best color processing we have today. Better, I can see (no pun intended), just not on par with, say, the jump going from SD to HD. Feel free to disagree, as I'm only speculating here based upon your post, and what little else I've read in regards to the HDMI 1.3 standard.

So it sounds like it will be at least, at least, a few years before we even get to a point when content providers start utilizing the extra color space, or whatever the correct phraseology, in any significant quantity. Plus, I have a difficult time believing that this improvement will be so much better than the best color processing we have today. Better, I can see (no pun intended), just not on par with, say, the jump going from SD to HD. Feel free to disagree, as I'm only speculating here based upon your post, and what little else I've read in regards to the HDMI 1.3 standard.

Yes, there is always going to be the siren song of the, wait for me, technical temptress. Wait and see, too often turns into wait and never see. But I have SED enough. Know what I mean Eh. Wink Wink, Nudge Nudge. Know what I mean, Eh!.

So, what have you decided on with your Plasma size poll?.

Since you are Chicago-ish, are you also Da Bear-ish, and do you think that Tank Johnson's new bodyguard will be allowed, after Tank is bumped into during the playoffs, to shoot the opposing player?. :)

Hey, come playoff time, you have to utilize all of your weapons. Since every single coach and player cliche-checks the "leaving your blood and guts on the field" warrior mantra, nothing would accomplish this better than the introducton of projectile lead.

Just as long as nobody comes loaded for Bear.

Yes, I've been monitoring my poll, assessing reassesing triple-doublesessing, and I will soon saddle up with one team or the other. Of course, this is empty promise, as I truly am a slowpoke cowpoke. Stay tuned for another thread update from me later today, perhaps. Where still nothing will have been resolved, of course. A perpetual procrastinator does not change his stripes over the course of a single millenium. All in evolutionary time, my dear, all in evolutionary time.

You don't have to tell me about it,my friend. Nothing spells out alacrity like your state of the art 27 inch CRT set. Then again, I should be the last to cast aspersions, as I still haven't gotten around to sending off for my WIN(whip inflation now) button.

Da Bears. I am afraid that they may be another one and done team. Secondary is starting to look like it can be picked apart, and they are not getting much of a push up front. They sure have made some recent bad teams look like world beaters. Perhaps Ron Rivera needs to go to more all out blitzing schemes. Risky, but if the do not hurry playoff quarterbacks they will surely get picked apart. I would feel a whole lot better if Tank was not being forced to take the field without his weapons arsenal or his pitbulls. We needed that edge. Da Bears :)

woo hoo. Despite the defensive injury losses, I feel pretty good about making it to the Super Bowl, not so much because the Bears are that good, but because nobody in the NFC is all that good, and if it's "pretty good" vs. "pretty good", why not the Bears version of "pg", esp. with home field advantage. Not that this has helped us in previous years *inset rolling eyes guy*.

Having said all that, if given a choice between losing in the semi-finals vs. making it to the Super Bowl, but getting creamed by one of the AFC powerhouses.. Ill take the former. I do not take to humiliation very well.

What has all this got to do with SED?
It has everything to do with SED, we are talking about the potential development of a Season Ending Disaster!

Ha, ha, really like your definition of "SED".:D My pick for Super Bowl is a bit different...New Orleans Saints vs. San Diego Chargers...do I win a vaporware SED if I'm correct???

So it sounds like it will be at least, at least, a few years before we even get to a point when content providers start utilizing the extra color space, or whatever the correct phraseology, in any significant quantity. Plus, I have a difficult time believing that this improvement will be so much better than the best color processing we have today. Better, I can see (no pun intended), just not on par with, say, the jump going from SD to HD. Feel free to disagree, as I'm only speculating here based upon your post, and what little else I've read in regards to the HDMI 1.3 standard.

I completely agree. I'm buying my 5070 in a couple weeks (right after CES just to make sure I'm not missing some big surprise). My next purchase will be when that combined triple punch of SED, OLED or whatever future display tech is affordable, the broader color spaces are commonly used, and High Dynamic Range images are also being used in content. I figure those will all probably reach the affordable consumer market range in 5 to 10 years and those will be some kick butt TVs, the combination of which will be as good as the jump from SD to HD.

sounds good. I like the way you think. today, at least. tomorrow never knows. ;)

Ha, ha, really like your definition of "SED".:D My pick for Super Bowl is a bit different...New Orleans Saints vs. San Diego Chargers...do I win a vaporware SED if I'm correct???

Yes, I fear the Saints the most. But if it has to be any other team, I hope it's them. "Feel good story of the year" if they can pull it off.

Please stop the football discussion in this thread. Thanks.

Well Rich, while we all twiddle our thumbs for SED News, what do YOU have to say about it??

Well Rich, while we all twiddle our thumbs for SED News, what do YOU have to say about it?? :D Well I say, the Giants looked good tonight but would’ve looked better if I could’ve viewed it on a SED. :p Can’t wait to see how the JETS do tomorrow and only imagine what it would look like on SED. :rolleyes: :D

what about OLED?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9293017&&#post9293017

oled wont be on tvs pretty much dead tech as far as tv goes reason why
oled had issues in their blue ness and lasting issues therefore was called off as far as tvs and are going to be in gadgets such as ipods cell phone screens etc etc noting big

http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/watches/8e18/

Well Rich, while we all twiddle our thumbs for SED News, what do YOU have to say about it??
Nothing now but I will be talking to both Canon and Toshiba about it at the CES show so hopefully I will have some info to share later on.

Here is a working OLED screen. Granted its no 65" tv, but it is a working product for sale.
http://www.thinkgeek.com/gadgets/watches/8e18/


Just for fun, I did a few calculations. The display is about a 1 square inch and cost about $100. So it is about $100/square inch. A 55" diagonal display has roughly 1350 square inches.

So if they kept the cost per square inch the same it would cost roughly $135,000 for a 55" OLED which is a little outside of most people's budget :D . Of course this is making a bunch of massive assumptions like the cost per square inch would stay the same. Granted you don't have to replicate the tuner and such, but then usually technology has an exponential cost factor as you scale it bigger as the number of devices per square inch of material goes down and the yield goes down with size. It is not that it is impossible to climb this hill, but that is the hill that LCD has already been climbing.

woo hoo. Despite the defensive injury losses, I feel pretty good about making it to the Super Bowl, not so much because the Bears are that good, but because nobody in the NFC is all that good, and if it's "pretty good" vs. "pretty good", why not the Bears version of "pg", esp. with home field advantage. Not that this has helped us in previous years *inset rolling eyes guy*.

Having said all that, if given a choice between losing in the semi-finals vs. making it to the Super Bowl, but getting creamed by one of the AFC powerhouses.. Ill take the former. I do not take to humiliation very well.

What has all this got to do with SED?
It has everything to do with SED, we are talking about the potential development of a Season Ending Disaster!

Just wish that I could watch Da Beloved Bears Playoff games on SED. There, I got in an obligatory SED reference. That should satisfy that chap from St. Paul who is probably just feeling grumpy becasuse, just like SED, his Vikings are no where to be seen. The Eagles are the NFC team that I would hate to see Da Bears have to get by. Still, it would be a great matchup to watch on a 1080P 55inch SED HDTV. To dream the impossible dream. :)

The chap who asked us to stop talking about football said that he will ask Toshiba/Canon about SED at the upcoming CES show. Why. They already cancelled having SED there, and the President of Toshiba declared that the have no plans in place to bring SED Consumer Product to market. It appears like someone is willing to let Lucy pullback the SEDball again.Da Bears.

Happy New Year to all. :)

My next purchase will be when that combined triple punch of SED, OLED or whatever future display tech is affordable, the broader color spaces are commonly used, and High Dynamic Range images are also being used in content. I figure those will all probably reach the affordable consumer market range in 5 to 10 years and those will be some kick butt TVs, the combination of which will be as good as the jump from SD to HD.

And most likely it will be that you won't buy any SED/OLED/whatever, but an incarnation of good old LCD :D.

Why it is going to be so? Just because LCD displays will become incredibly cheap, no other technology will have foothold to overthrow it.

LCD is hard disc of display technology, hard disc substitution is predicted regulary for ages but it is just getting bigger and better. True, it is not ideal but nothing can beat it.

I continue to think this technology may some day make it to the consumer level, just not at the present time. The article quoted certainly doesn't permanently close the door, just for the time being. What I hope to do is get a sense of how much more cost reductions would be necessary for them to be able to hit the consumer market. Below is from the article with emphasis mine:

"Toshiba plans to start shipping SED products in fall 2007, but considers focusing on professional users at first, positioning the SED as a "limited, pricey, high-end" product. Nishida said the company's plan to build an SED volume-production facility in Himeji is "advancing on track." However, saying the SED is not "competitive against the LCD TV" in the market for consumer TVs, Nishida indicated that Toshiba is not planning to bring SED to the current consumer TV market. "

anybody have opinion on FED. that is almost SED. it is nano SED!

I continue to think this technology may some day make it to the consumer level, just not at the present time. The article quoted certainly doesn't permanently close the door, just for the time being. What I hope to do is get a sense of how much more cost reductions would be necessary for them to be able to hit the consumer market. Below is from the article with emphasis mine:

"Toshiba plans to start shipping SED products in fall 2007, but considers focusing on professional users at first,... "

Do not take it literally. What Toshiba guys are saying is polite political speak "SED is dead but we will try to do our best to wind it down gently".

They just can't go out and tell "It is dead and this mistake will cost us X billions". Colateral damage would be then XX billions.

I continue to think this technology may some day make it to the consumer level, just not at the present time. The article quoted certainly doesn't permanently close the door, just for the time being. What I hope to do is get a sense of how much more cost reductions would be necessary for them to be able to hit the consumer market. Below is from the article with emphasis mine:

"Toshiba plans to start shipping SED products in fall 2007, but considers focusing on professional users at first, positioning the SED as a "limited, pricey, high-end" product. Nishida said the company's plan to build an SED volume-production facility in Himeji is "advancing on track." However, saying the SED is not "competitive against the LCD TV" in the market for consumer TVs, Nishida indicated that Toshiba is not planning to bring SED to the current consumer TV market. "

In the same article, Nishida said that LCD and Plasma have already become commodities. He then goes on to say that most items disappear from the market five years after they become a commodity. How else is one to read that statement other than Nishida is claiming that since LCD and Plasma have now reached a commodity stage, they will disappear in five years. Read it again folks. Does that strike anyone else as being a realistic projection. He also says that he does not intend to let SED become a commodity. Sounds like he is saying, in order to avoid having SED become a commodity, we have decided to not introduce it, at least until LCD and Plasma disappear during the next five years. Does this type of statement by the President of Toshiba Corp pass the smell test. What do you make of it, people?

Edit for an update addition:. JapanToday.com , Technology Section has an article in January 1 2007 edition about SED production problems. They report that Toshiba/Canon are probably going to have to delay the planned construction of a factory to produce SED panels, because Canon does not have the right to transfer licensing rights of a Nano-Proprietary patent to the Joint Toshiba/SED Company.

That may be the real reason why Toshiba cancelled SED at CES, at the last minute. As things now stand, Toshiba has no legal right to even display a SED panel which uses the Nano-Proprietary, Inc patent. They are a US company, and Canon just lost in court in an attempt to keep Nano from suing them for unauthorized transfer of license rights to Toshiba. So, you can just imagine what would happen if Toshiba tried to demonstrate SED at CES. Nano would probably get a court injunction to stop them. They probably told Canon that, and Toshiba was forced to cancel CES, or get even worse publicity by having a court decree forbidding them from doing so.

Notice that, in his comments, the President of Toshiba never even mentioned the fact that they were developing a SED product that incorporates a patent usage that Toshiba has no legal right to use.

Reality Check. Toshiba is putting out a lot of spin to actually avoid addressing the real truth. Nano Proprietary, Inc which is based in the USA has thrown a legal spanner in the works. They own the patent rights to a key component of the SED technology. Toshiba has no right to us it. Since they would need the US market for a Consumer SED product, they can not run an end around Nano-Proprietary, Inc' patent rights. That explains why just two months ago Consumer SED was going to be sold in Japan this year, and now they are not going to make it. It is all about a patent license folks. If they get an agreement worked out, watch for Toshiba to do a complete about face on their Consumer Panel viability claims.

I've already stated my take on it, but will reinterate. Toshiba will first enter the professional market and not worry about bringing some fancy smancy cost-cutting production tech into the picture to muck up the works. Production plant is on schedule, so by late 2007 or early 2008 expect to read in tech blogs that
ESPN had acquired SED in production booths. Over the next 2-3 years, SED will gain stature as pros use this display, and Toshiba will attempt a backdoor entry into the world of CE, but slowly & gradual as a niche high-end product. By then though. pricing will be reduced although not enough to really make any dent in Plasma & LCD marketshare. Each succeeding new SED generation will improve, and perhaps by 2015 we'll see SED as a serious contender in the marketplace. That's my crystal ball prediction of 2006. HAPPY FRACKIN NEW YEAR!!!!!


Another Editing Update....due to recent news about just how serious this patent litigation seems to be developing for Toshiba, the before mentioned new SED production facility appears to be on hold. You all know what this means if the disagreement is not resolved in short order...no plant, no SED... not even a pro model, nada, zip, the project is a bust. Stay tuned for the continuing SED Saga.

Edit for an update addition:. JapanToday.com , Technology Section has an article in January 1 2007 edition about SED production problems. They report that Toshiba/Canon are probably going to have to delay the planned construction of a factory to produce SED panels, because Canon does not have the right to transfer licensing rights of a Nano-Proprietary patent to the Joint Toshiba/SED Company.

SED, Inc have gone too far down the road to walk away without a fight. From Forbes.com:

Canon Inc and Toshiba Corp may be forced to delay the planned construction of a factory to make panels for surface-conduction electron-emitter display or SED televisions in Hyogo Prefecture due to a patent suit in the US, the Nihon Keizai Shimbun reported over the weekend...

Canon has since held consultations with Toshiba on how to respond to the situation, and it is now considering increasing its equity stake in the venture, the report said, adding there is the possibility that Nano-Proprietary may demand that Toshiba pay a royalty to it when procuring the display panels.

I've already stated my take on it, but will reinterate. Toshiba will first enter the professional market and not worry about bringing some fancy smancy cost-cutting production tech into the picture to muck up the works. Production plant is on schedule, so by late 2007 or early 2008 expect to read in tech blogs that ESPN had acquired SED in production booths.


Unfortunately this sounds wishful thinking. There emerged now both patent litigation and recognition that SED missed the train. Earlier there was delay to production. Telling that SED will enter professional market is just trying to keep face. On the professional front Sharp demonstrated LCD with CR 1: 1 000 000 and 64" LCD panel with 4096x2160 rez which is format adpoted for 4k digital cinema. It is much more likely LCD will enter professional area and not SED.


Over the next 2-3 years, SED will gain stature as pros use this display, and Toshiba will attempt a backdoor entry into the world of CE, but slowly & gradual as a niche high-end product. By then though. pricing will be reduced although not enough to really make any dent in Plasma & LCD marketshare. Each succeeding new SED generation will improve, and perhaps by 2015 we'll see SED as a serious contender in the marketplace. That's my crystal ball prediction of 2006. HAPPY FRACKIN NEW YEAR!!!!!

Wow, 2015. Sounds we can forget SED for a while if not eternity :D.

From the article, they seem to want us to believe that this is what they had planned for SED all along, but we all know(?) that's ox manure. Right?

Sure it is. They initially planned building 15,000 units/month at their Himeji factory starting January 2007, escalating by EOY to full capacity of 70,000 units/month. That sure doesn't sound like specialty quantities to me. ;)

WRT pricing and market placement, Canon and Toshiba said in September 2005 they hoped SED would dominate the market of displays larger than 40-inch by 2010.

Oh well... Bye bye SED.

Unfortunately this sounds wishful thinking. There emerged now both patent litigation and recognition that SED missed the train. Earlier there was delay to production. Telling that SED will enter professional market is just trying to keep face. On the professional front Sharp demonstrated LCD with CR 1: 1 000 000 and 64" LCD panel with 4096x2160 rez which is format adpoted for 4k digital cinema. It is much more likely LCD will enter professional area and not SED.

Yeah, at this stage of the long winding SED road, it IS wishing thinking. Hope..and a slim one at that...is about all there is left to SED's future. I was just throwing around some "what if's" out there to see what sticks, but don't think for one nano second I'm actually "waiting for SED".



Wow, 2015. Sounds we can forget SED for a while if not eternity :D.

I was being conservative in my guesstimate. :D

Despite the various claims about LCD technology, I have never seen an LCD that can match the blacks of a CRT.

And those of you who keep advocating SXRD, I will say that like many of us here, I have zero desire in a projection TV. This dislike of projection TVs will not change in the next 3 years or longer. I am only interested flat panel displays. In fact, despite the limitations of LCD, I'd take a Bravia over an SXRD any day. The problem though is I want neither.

The new 1080p high-contrast plasmas that are supposedly coming do look interesting, but nonetheless the loss of consumer-level SED for the foreseeable future is very disappointing.

The saga continues...

Canon, Toshiba back off from flat-panel production (http://www.asahi.com/english/Herald-asahi/TKY200701020038.html)

" Canon Inc. and Toshiba Corp. are considering scrapping plans to build a 200-billion-yen plant to mass produce flat-panel TV components because of a legal tug-of-war over patents, sources said.

The two companies teamed up in 1999 to develop surface-conduction electron-emitter displays (SED) for next-generation flat-panel display television sets. They set up a joint venture called SED Inc. in Hiratsuka, Kanagawa Prefecture, to develop, produce and market the displays.

In May 2005, the companies announced they would build the plant in the compounds of Toshiba's Himeji plant in Hyogo Prefecture.

But Canon is set to pull out because of the lack of progress in a patent lawsuit filed by Nano-Proprietary Inc., an American company that holds technology related to the SED.

Cannon is to make an official announcement of its decision in January about the plant, according to the sources.

The cancellation is a blow to Canon, which wanted to expand into television. The news will also come as a disappointment to local industries and the community where the plant was to have been built.

Texas-based Nano-Proprietary, which has a license agreement with Canon, filed the lawsuit in April 2005 in the United States on grounds the agreement does not cover Toshiba. At issue is whether the joint venture SED Inc. is a subsidiary of Canon.

The case is not likely to be concluded anytime soon, the sources said.

If the lawsuit is settled, Canon may still consider starting mass production of the SED television sets, according to the sources.

Canon says SED Inc. is its subsidiary because Canon owns a single share more in the joint venture than Toshiba. Canon has insisted that Canon's license agreement with Nano-Proprietary extends to SED Inc.

Nano-Proprietary, however, maintains that SED Inc. is not a Canon subsidiary since the joint venture's decisions require Toshiba's agreement.

Canon's motion in a U.S. court to have SED Inc. recognized as its subsidiary was rejected in November.

In an effort to bring about a resolution, Canon plans to increase its capital in SED Inc.

But Nano-Proprietary remains adamant that it will not allow license transfer to Toshiba. It will likely demand separate payment for the use of the patent if Toshiba were to acquire flat panels from SED Inc., the sources said.

SED Inc.'s Hiratsuka plant has already produced flat panels on an experimental basis, and Canon and Toshiba both believe marketing of SED television sets will be possible at the end of 2007 in small quantities if the license issue is resolved.

But industry observers note that prices will remain high if the SED TVs cannot be mass produced at the planned new plant in Hyogo Prefecture."

The saga continues...


There must be a lot of legal posturing going on here between Toshiba/Canon and Nano-Proprietary. To kill the SED venture does not seem to be any of these three players' best interests financially. You'd think working something out sooner than later would be to everyone's advantage. :rolleyes:

Despite the various claims about LCD technology, I have never seen an LCD that can match the blacks of a CRT.

And those of you who keep advocating SXRD, I will say that like many of us here, I have zero desire in a projection TV. This dislike of projection TVs will not change in the next 3 years or longer. I am only interested flat panel displays. In fact, despite the limitations of LCD, I'd take a Bravia over an SXRD any day. The problem though is I want neither.

The new 1080p high-contrast plasmas that are supposedly coming do look interesting, but nonetheless the loss of consumer-level SED for the foreseeable future is very disappointing.

I see nasty flashes and rainbows on plasmas.

I'd take an LCD over a plasma and hope that LCD makers will figure out a way to improve the CR in a couple of years when I'm ready to upgrade.

The SED fiasco is disappointing - Canon and Toshiba screwed up on multiple levels - Intellectual Property, market evaluation, costing, maybe even on technology.

If the lawsuit is settled, Canon may still consider starting mass production of the SED television sets, according to the sources.


Let's hope this lawsuit is settled, most are, so in a way this is good news :)

This could be the last hope in a bright future for display technology.

Nano-Proprietary filed their patent rights violation suit against Canon/Toshiba in April 2005. A trial date is set for May 2007. Therefore Canon/Toshiba has less than five months to settle, before it goes to trial. They can not go ahead with plans to implement a manufacturing schedule until they get the law suit settled.

Now, look again at when the suit was filed. Then look at all the SED production plans that were promulgated by Toshiba/Canon since that time. Either a case of complete arrogance or a case of complete incompetence on their part. Knowing full well that they had a serious patent rights problem, they were still, up to as recently as two months ago, misleading the public about their SED introduction situation.

Now, after the case finally gets scheduled for trial, the President of Toshiba starts telling the public that LCD and Plasma are now commodities, and commodities usually disappear within five years, after they become established as commodities. He then claims that is why they have decided to not proceed with plans to introduce a SED consumer product. He said they do not want it to turn into a commodity. He never said one word about the fact that Nano-Proprietary's suit is the actual reason why they can not currently proceed with their SED plans. A pretty shifty bunch. The truth is not in them.

I don't see how nano gains from killing the only company willing to spend the billions of yen necessary to bring the technology to market. As usual when the legal beagles get involved this looks like a lose-lose.

In fact, unless it's part of their legal strategy against nano, it's hard to see how this lawsuit could have been the trigger for SED's fall from grace. I think it's much more likely that the huge tumble in flat-panel prices in 2006 has run way ahead of SED's plans to cut production costs. The good is the enemy of the best.

It's too bad, because I'm with Bugs: I really don't see the appeal of projection systems, which look washed out to my eyes. And there's something about the LCD look that bugs me, too - possibly colour accuracy and dark-scene performance. I guess I'll be looking at plasmas next year.

DailyTech: Legal Battles Put SED on the Rocks (http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=5529)
1 January 2007

Surface-conduction electron-emitted displays continue to face delays

Due to an ongoing lawsuit between Canon and Nano-Proprietary, Toshiba may be forced to suspend development and manufacturing of SED, or surface-conduction electron-emitted display.

The pending lawsuit revolves around Nano-Proprietary's patent of the SED technology and its licensing with Canon, Inc. Applied Nanotech, a subsidiary of Nano-Proprietary, licensed out their SED technology for Canon to manufacture exclusively -- not a Toshiba-Canon partnership.

That didn't stop Toshiba-Canon from announcing production would start this past July, even though the joint venture did not have a production facility. Japan Today reported earlier this morning the groundbreaking on the Toshiba-Canon SED facility will likely be delayed due to the legal battle between Toshiba-Canon and Nano-Proprietary.

The suit was filed in April of 2005 (PDF) with Nano-Proprietary seeking a declaratory judgment that the manufacturing of the SED by the joint venture of Toshiba-Canon, Inc. does not meet the details of the non-exclusive 1999 patent license agreement granted to Canon, Inc. by SIDT. SIDT changed its name to Nano-Proprietary shortly after the agreement was reached.

With billions in potential income resting on the outcome of the litigation, Toshiba and Canon, Inc. are hoping for a quick resolution. A trial date has been set for May of '07 (a motion to expedite the ruling was denied in November 2006), but the two companies are said to be discussing possible settlements.

Toshiba America, on December 20, released information of its cancellation of the 55-inch SED demo at CES 2007 during a press release. No official information was released about the cancellation of the display, but representatives from Toshiba have stated, in notes sent to appointment only viewers of the demo, that the delay was neither due to technical nor business-related issues.

Developers claim that the SED technology is able to deliver response times under a millisecond. Another one of SEDs advantages include the ability to produce TV's over 40 inches in diameter that are only a few centimeters thick. The big selling point for the SED is the power consumption is equal to about one thirds that of an LCD and can support full HD resolution (1,920 x 1,080 pixels).

Expected launch of the Toshiba SED was scheduled for the fourth quarter of 2007, but Toshiba President and Chief Executive Atsutoshi Nishida since stated that he wanted the company release SED displays in conjunction with the 2008 Beijing Olympics.

Nano gains nothing from allowing Canon to give away their patented technology to Toshiba. If they let that stand, they would have established a precedent, and then all other companies could take it, in the same manner. Canon and Toshiba have know this for two years, and did not play fair. They tried to bigfoot the little company, and now they are paying for their unfair business practices.

120Hz would be perfect. 1080P/24 24x5 =120 :)

I say let Toshiba make there $$$ back by selling the SED pannels to professionals for quadruple what they would could sell them for in the regular consumer markets (which for the most part wouldnt appreciate it). Once all the studios, labs, airports etc have been supplied, they will have perfected the manufacturing process and can then release a 2nd or 3rd gen display to the general public at a somewhat reasonable price.

Toshiba needs to make back some serious $$$ as they are about to take a blood bath with the death of HD-DVD in 2007-2008.

I think what Toshiba's doing is smart, for once... (see HD-DVD for the opposite of smart). They have a great product but cannot achieve pricing for market A so they decide to switch there target audience to market B which will eventually allow them to revisit market A... in time... This, perhaps, might be the smartest business model from all displays out there right now: Make a killing on 1st gen and continue making a killing even once it hits the consumer market... there not competing against anybody... no one else is making SED panels and if they enter the consumer market at 50% more and make no appologies about it, they can sell these panels for a good profit margin while LCD and Plasma are undercutting and killing each other. As long as they lose all illusions of grandeur and concede that this will never be the flat panel technology of the masses (which they seem to have done) they might actually succeed. If they make as much profit with a potential 10% market share then someone else's 25-30%... what's the problem.

P.S. Don't get me wrong, I would love to see SED come to market faster but it's sure looking like my next display will be a Pioneer Plasma HDMI 1.3


Wow, you've sure missed the mark with regards to HD DVD. It's brilliant and will win as the movie playback format.

A pretty shifty bunch. The truth is not in them.

you are finding every way and making any assumption to bash canon/toshiba. one could also assume ugly things about nano and its lawsuit... (you know, the lawsuit putting SED six feet under?). i would need to know alot more before placing blame on anybody.

Something doesn't appear to add up here, but it is hard to know what is really going on or who is at fault without knowing all the facts.

Even if (and that is an if as I don't know anything other than reading a little of what has been pointed to) Canon was stretching the definition of a subsidiary, one would think that they could have settled this with Nano as it should not have been in either party's interest to have it blow up.

Things might be blowing up because the original deal between Canon and Nano was not worked out well. For example maybe Nano gave Canon a very sweet heart deal because they were the first to sign up. This would then motivate Nano to be very strict about what counts as a subsidiary. It "feels" like Nano was getting much of their money up front and not a lot from royalties. If they got a "fair" amount on royalties, then they wouldn't care who made the units and they certainly wouldn't want the whole deal to blow up.

An alternative scenario (and there are probably multiple reasons) is that Canon and Toshiba are now figuring that SED has far less business return than they had first hoped (which does appear very likely now). They figure that they only way going forward to make any kind of return is to play hardball with Nano. Clearly, this lawsuit is life threatening to SED as they are already falling behind the other technologies in terms of the cost curve. When somebody elects to do something this bad, it is usually because the alternative is worse.

It could be just a matter of grown men behaving badly, but more than likely it was a poorly structured original deal that was not a "win-win." When there is not a win-win, at the least provocation, things fall apart.

In any event, whatever chance there was for SED to become a major player has been diminished by this problem. I still wonder if the technology itself did not have some major flaws as they never really let anyone get up close and personal with the demo sets.

Something doesn't appear to add up here, but it is hard to know what is really going on or who is at fault without knowing all the facts.

Even if (and that is an if as I don't know anything other than reading a little of what has been pointed to) Canon was stretching the definition of a subsidiary, one would think that they could have settled this with Nano as it should not have been in either party's interest to have it blow up.

Things might be blowing up because the original deal between Canon and Nano was not worked out well. For example maybe Nano gave Canon a very sweet heart deal because they were the first to sign up. This would then motivate Nano to be very strict about what counts as a subsidiary. It "feels" like Nano was getting much of their money up front and not a lot from royalties. If they got a "fair" amount on royalties, then they wouldn't care who made the units and they certainly wouldn't want the whole deal to blow up.

An alternative scenario (and there are probably multiple reasons) is that Canon and Toshiba are now figuring that SED has far less business return than they had first hoped (which does appear very likely now). They figure that they only way going forward to make any kind of return is to play hardball with Nano. Clearly, this lawsuit is life threatening to SED as they are already falling behind the other technologies in terms of the cost curve. When somebody elects to do something this bad, it is usually because the alternative is worse.

It could be just a matter of grown men behaving badly, but more than likely it was a poorly structured original deal that was not a "win-win." When there is not a win-win, at the least provocation, things fall apart.

In any event, whatever chance there was for SED to become a major player has been diminished by this problem. I still wonder if the technology itself did not have some major flaws as they never really let anyone get up close and personal with the demo sets.

There is NO way to know how or why it will crumble as it does....if you recall, Research in Motion (RIM) ended up paying NTP $650 Million over a similar patent dispute despite the fact that the patents were found to be invalid by the patent office during negotiation.

Its just a shame SED has to suffer.... :mad:

If you want to read more about the Nano Proprietary Suit against Canon, you can get a lot of information about it at Nano-Proprietary.com. Mouse over the "about us' tab. Drop down menu, click on litigation. Lots of information on the history of Canon/Nano relationship, etc. Read for yourself.

I can not find any information about it on either Canon or Toshiba SED sites. Toshiba/SED is a site dedicated to their SED information and press releases. They have not added any press statements since March 2006. Nothing at all at Canon sites.

Nano has no problem posting current details about the pending suit. Nothing at all from Toshiba or Canon.
I stand by previous observation that they seem to be a shifty bunch, and they have not leveled with us.

If you want to read more about the Nano Proprietary Suit against Canon, you can get a lot of information about it at Nano-Proprietary.com. Mouse over the "about us' tab. Drop down menu, click on litigation. Lots of information on the history of Canon/Nano relationship, etc. Read for yourself.

I can not find any information about it on either Canon or Toshiba SED sites. Toshiba/SED is a site dedicated to their SED information and press releases. They have not added any press statements since March 2006. Nothing at all at Canon sites.

Nano has no problem posting current details about the pending suit. Nothing at all from Toshiba or Canon.
I stand by previous observation that they seem to be a shifty bunch, and they have not leveled with us.

Nano-Proprietary is a penny-stock professional litigation company that is milking the mess that is the US Patent system.

Having said that, Canon and Toshiba made a serious error by taking them lightly.

It's a mess all around, on many levels.

But the settlement should be possible, because NP needs Canon/Toshiba, and vice-versa.

The basic patents owned by Nanoproprietary, make their patent defense of enormous concern, not just for Canon & Toshiba, but the for the entire display industry. Defense of patents is the only way an inventor has of protecting his property from the type of chicanery that Canon and Toshiba tried in their creation of SED.:D Trial date is set for 2/23. I think a lot of what has gone on over the past 2 weeks is an attempt to push Nano- to an agreement that is more agreeable to SED.

Nano has no problem posting current details about the pending suit. Nothing at all from Toshiba or Canon.
I stand by previous observation that they seem to be a shifty bunch, and they have not leveled with us.

Did you ever see a defendant that did not say "We do not discuss pending litigation"? Why give the plaintiffs any free ammo?

Defense of patents is the only way an inventor has of protecting his property from the type of chicanery that Canon and Toshiba tried in their creation of SED.:D

That's assuming the patent is for an actual invention and not just the first guy to the patent office with a new way to describe common knowledge. I'm not saying that's the case with NP and FED/SED, but the patent system is a mess that needs to be sorted out.

Canon paid NNPP a royalty that included subsideraries. In this country when 2 companies agree to equal control in all areas, except one company has one more share of stock than the other, that is not a subsidiary. As Canon has not manufacture displays, NNPP thought they were being paid royalties on a new printer or scanning device.

so what it seems to boil down to now is either way consumers lose. We lose if they don't work it out and SED never sees the light of day and we lose if they do work it out meaning Toshiba will pay some sort of fees to Nano raising the costs because i'm damn sure that Toshiba won't be the ones footing that bill. :(

Did you ever see a defendant that did not say "We do not discuss pending litigation"? Why give the plaintiffs any free ammo?

I was wondering why Toshiba has not posted anything ,on the website which they have dedicated to SED, about their President's recent announcement that they had decided against making SED consumer panels for the foreseeable future. They have made a lot of announcements in the past six months, yet none of them were ever posted on their own SED website. The last press release on there was posted during March 2006. Pretty selective in what they decide they want to put up for the public to read about SED on their dedicated SED site, it would appear. Hmm.

The press release, I read, stated that it could be awhile before consumer models could be available. It implied that Toshiba thought there was a heavy demand for SED as reference monitors, at a premium cost. I think they are looking at 1080p LCD displays, over 50" at a price under 5K, which would keep SED from short term profitability (thats my WAG).:D

Dim future for SED technology (http://www.digitimes.com/displays/a20070104VL201.html)
4 January 2007

While Toshiba America Electronic Components (TAEC) recently confirmed that the company will not showcase surface-conduction electron-emitter display (SED) panel at CES 2007, which will open in Las Vegas from January 8-11, a recent report from Reuters noted that SED, the joint venture of Canon and Toshiba, will not be able to launch their SED TV on time again due to a patent lawsuit between Canon and Nano Proprietary.

The delay of the launch time or the cancellation of the SED project could possible challenge for the two companies, said the paper, adding that Toshiba and Canon will announce the final decision for SED project later this month.

According to Canon's schedule in early 2005, SED TV is originally scheduled to hit market between the end of spring and the beginning of summer time during 2006. However, Toshiba and Canon confirmed the delay of SED TV in March 2006 and said they will start the first-phase mass production for SED panels in July 2007 and launch SED TV in the fourth quarter of 2007.

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20070105/126061/

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20070105/126061/

Sgt. Canon Schultz says " I know Nothing, Nothing"

Canon has nothing to do with statements released about putting off building a SED plant. It was some mystery other corporation that made that statement' Yeah, that's the ticket, a mystery corporation, or perhaps my wife, Morgan Fairchild. Yeah, that's it, that's the ticket. :)

because we all know how well any manufacturer sticks to their original production dates. still waiting on Sony's PS3 and Blu-Ray machines....(i hear they had more problems). SED will not be here in 2008...write it down...bookmark this quote if you want. I'm glad there's a fairy tale machine out there that's making Panny and Pio shake...that's what you have to have to get progress on the next generation models. If there wasn't competition we'd still all be driving Model-Ts.


Told you all to bookmark my quote...

Frankly its to bad SED isn't showing potential of coming on the market soon...was hopping it would drive down the price of LCD...i think at this point if SED ever does actually come out that it will end up with a very short lifespan. think ten years from now, TV tech will probably come out with screens 1/2 an inch thick. i have no data about it but the way technology is advancing these days...SED tv is what? 3 inches thick? that's crazy! who has room for that! (think discussions 10 years from now on the AVS 3D VR Quantum forums)

Well. we've bought & watched Tubes for over 50 years before Flat Panel displays were available, and who know when innovators & inventors will succeed. A whopping 3" thick huh....geeeez, I'd better start knocking down some dry wall to make room.
As you suggested, I'm thinking 10 years from now, and don't know what to make of it except better Plasma & LCD's, and possibly a good working SED. Who frackin knows can chime in any time, as I don't have a clue. OLED...givemeabreak.

Good bye SED. I had hoped to you could help me avoid LCDs but instead one by one those issues are being solved. Samsung now is listing quite a number of 30 bit panels too.

Rest in peace my friend.

SED is dead and Pioneer is capitalizing on the mourners:

"Pioneer Launches Breakthrough Display Technology
Overhaul of Plasma Technology Surpasses Both LCD and SED Regardless of Lighting Conditions"

Due out Summer 2007 !!!

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3/pg/press/release/detail/0,,2076_310069589_396277724,00.html

Toshiba and Canon will be in need of a good grief councelor. It's a good thing they rolled out a seperate company in SED inc... now only that company needs to go bankrupt (ouch!). No wonder they won't invest in that SED plant...


P.S. I was a big suporter of SED technology but Pioneer is coming out with

A) Superior technology
B) Actual US 2007 availability
C) Probably cheaper then SED would have been if launched
D) What brand would you rather own? Pioneer or Toshiba? Let's be honest

=

SED is dead and burried. Actually, i'm not even sure if we can call SED dead as it was never born therefore wasn't actually alive... probably more accurate to refer to it as Ill-timed VaporWare.

okay, this is staggeringly dumb but for some reason I thought Pioneer was an American company. D'oh!! Should've known better.

Do we (Americans) even make anything any more? I guess TI does make DLP chips. Thank heavens for small favors.

SED is dead and burried. Actually, i'm not even sure if we can call SED dead as it was never born therefore wasn't actually alive... probably more accurate to refer to it as Ill-timed VaporWare.

Yup. I was often attacked for calling SED 'still-borne' once Pioneer made its announcement awhile ago. I know one SED advocate that must be in mourning....you know the guy that insisted all the other technologies should 'pack their bags'. ;)

SED is dead and Pioneer is capitalizing on the mourners:

"Pioneer Launches Breakthrough Display Technology
Overhaul of Plasma Technology Surpasses Both LCD and SED Regardless of Lighting Conditions"

Due out Summer 2007 !!!

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3/pg/press/release/detail/0,,2076_310069589_396277724,00.html

Toshiba and Canon will be in need of a good grief councelor. It's a good thing they rolled out a seperate company in SED inc... now only that company needs to go bankrupt (ouch!). No wonder they won't invest in that SED plant...


P.S. I was a big suporter of SED technology but Pioneer is coming out with

A) Superior technology
B) Actual US 2007 availability
C) Probably cheaper then SED would have been if launched
D) What brand would you rather own? Pioneer or Toshiba? Let's be honest

=

SED is dead and burried. Actually, i'm not even sure if we can call SED dead as it was never born therefore wasn't actually alive... probably more accurate to refer to it as Ill-timed VaporWare.

Yep, looks like I'm Pioneer bound, and boy oh boy does it look sweet! Can't wait to feast my eyes on Pio's all newly developed/engineered Plasma display. Noting its release date, me thinks this was designed to be a SED Killer from the getgo.

Every decade or so, there always seems to be some up & coming A/V tech that after great expense & effort still hits the dirt. SED seems to be heading for that nameplate in the sky. Kuddos for the grand effort, which in itself helps shape the market and affect design, engineering, innovation, and last pricing. I applause Toshiba/Canon for this, and any other company that expends this kind of effort to bring about a all new CE product...Army Taps playing as I salute...FLORIDA GATORS NATIONAL CHAMPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Yahooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Who has seen the Sony 27", millimeters thick, OLED display at CES? They seem to be closer to reality than SED.

stunning colors and detail

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/01/08/sonys-1-000-000-1-contrast-ratio-27-inch-oled-hdtv/

Nano Proprietary will be the biggest losers in this. As clearly other technologies have stepped up.

Nano had market timing with Canon (and Co.) setting up and paying for a ton of initial research. But with Nano being greedy, the deal is falling apart fast.

No other company will touch Nano now from an investment perspective given that the market advantage is lost and the others have momentum.

Nano went all-in with a pair of 8's and has now lost it all. At least Canon has their traditional business to fall back on.

In pioneer press release I read:

"This is the result of reducing the minimum luminance level by 80 percent. "

k, that means Contrast did get around 4* higher. Still <1:10000 as no plasma/LCD are higher then 3000:1 real. Now the funny part:

"The test equipment typically used to determine the variance between peak white and peak black does not have great enough range to measure Pioneer’s new display so a contrast ratio specification is not yet determined."
K I think they need to upgrade there test equipment as even my pod can read black levels on my CRT FP as its on/off contrast is way higher then 10000:1 and white level much less then plasma :D

SED is dead and Pioneer is capitalizing on the mourners:

"Pioneer Launches Breakthrough Display Technology
Overhaul of Plasma Technology Surpasses Both LCD and SED Regardless of Lighting Conditions"

Due out Summer 2007 !!!

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3/pg/press/release/detail/0,,2076_310069589_396277724,00.html

Toshiba and Canon will be in need of a good grief councelor. It's a good thing they rolled out a seperate company in SED inc... now only that company needs to go bankrupt (ouch!). No wonder they won't invest in that SED plant...


P.S. I was a big suporter of SED technology but Pioneer is coming out with

A) Superior technology
B) Actual US 2007 availability
C) Probably cheaper then SED would have been if launched
D) What brand would you rather own? Pioneer or Toshiba? Let's be honest

=

SED is dead and burried. Actually, i'm not even sure if we can call SED dead as it was never born therefore wasn't actually alive... probably more accurate to refer to it as Ill-timed VaporWare.


I hope this isn't some repackaged plasma. I hope this is a brand new display technology and not plasma because plasma has reached its peak a display technology despite Pioneer's self serving news release. You can throw perfume on pig but it still aint going to make smell good.

I think its kind of pretentious on Pioneer's part to make claims about some possibly new or recooked plasma technology that is better than SED when all know and as you just stated, wasn't born. So how are they going to compare this recooked plasma technology to SED. It's funny how Pioneer waited until SED officially announced as dead before they made their better than SED claims.

SED was being demoed all over world, where was Pioneer with their recooked plasma technology, no where!! They, just like many other display technology manufacturers are jumping for joy that SED is no more, it was giving them nightmares.

Also, when has Pioneer Plasma prices ever been cheap. I don't consider a 50 inch 10k 1080p plasma to be cheap. For the most part, Pioneer's plasmas prices are pretty much the same that were when plasma was new technology.

In pioneer press release I read:

"This is the result of reducing the minimum luminance level by 80 percent. "

k, that means Contrast did get around 4* higher. Still <1:10000 as no plasma/LCD are higher then 3000:1 real. Now the funny part:

"The test equipment typically used to determine the variance between peak white and peak black does not have great enough range to measure Pioneer’s new display so a contrast ratio specification is not yet determined."
K I think they need to upgrade there test equipment as even my pod can read black levels on my CRT FP as its on/off contrast is way higher then 10000:1 and white level much less then plasma :D

Also, what about fill factor issues, dithering, color banding problems associated with plasma. All of those drastic flaws inherent in plasma technology would have eliminated with SED. For those of you who are gleeful at the apparent demise of SED are not true videophiles.

Again, SED technology is superior to plasma in everyway. btw, 10,000-1 is nothing compared to 100,000-1.

Again, I quote Dr. Soneira as video technology scientist and expert, not some some Pioneer Elite marketing kid.

"Potentially the most interesting is the Canon-Toshiba Surface-conduction Electron-emitter Display, SED, which is a very thin (under 1 centimeter) CRT-like phosphor-based display technology. It has digitally addressed pixels, however, the brightness of each pixel is produced through an analog process, so it should be free of the digital artifacts present in plasma and DLP displays, which have digital on-off intensity controls produced with pulse width modulation (see Part III). In this regard SED is very similar to LCoS. As an emissive technology, SED already produces CRT-like black levels, with contrast ratios in the 10,000 to 100,000 range (much better than plasma because it doesn't need to maintain a background level for priming the discharge). The response time is speced at 1ms, which is very fast. "

I'm sure scientist and esteemed scholars in the field of video display technology will get a chance to bench test one of these SED professional models vs plasma and because of the aforementioned issues with plasma, SED as display technology will prove superior to PDP.

Auditor55,

Count me among the people who would love SED to come to the market. But now there are stories that Canon and Toshiba will decide on starting their plant construction this month. If they cancel that, you will definitely have to lose some of your optimism ;)

- Rich

Auditor55,

Count me among the people who would love SED to come to the market. But now there are stories that Canon and Toshiba will decide on starting their plant construction this month. If they cancel that, you will definitely have to lose some of your optimism ;)

- Rich

If SED is goes away for good, like some sad plasma fanboys are foolishly hoping for, I think and other serious videophiles must start to turn our attention to OLED.

We need something to push display technology forward. Plasma and LCD represents and arrested development. I'm not excited at all about another repackaged big ole heavy plasma.

We need something to push display technology forward. Plasma and LCD represents and arrested development. I'm not excited at all about another repackaged big ole heavy plasma.

Why not? If Plasma can yield performance close to SED, all the better.
BTW, my 657UY feels very light now that it is on the wall, I barely notice
the weight :p

- Rich

Why not? If Plasma can yield performance close to SED, all the better.
BTW, my 657UY feels very light now that it is on the wall, I barely notice
the weight :p

- Rich

Because Pioneer is trying to take advantage of the demise of SED. They're going to give us another overpriced plasma with inferior display technology. If Pioneer is going to overcharge us, and they will, they should at least introduce a new technology ala OLED, ala SED, instead of some re-glossed plasma. I prefer plasam to RPTV, I think its a better technology, but plasma is not the future. Plasma is fast losing out to LCD (god help us all) and plasma, with exception of Pioneer, is quickly becoming a commodity.

MEMO to Pioneer:

Please don't try to sell me and other videophiles world wide one of your overpriced, repackaged, reglossed, quickly fading technology, PDP's. We are not excited at all because we know plasma is not the future of display technology, we know that there must be something better.

No more 50 inch 10K plasmas when we all know that plasma is now a commodity.

Because Pioneer is trying to take advantage of the demise of SED. They're going to give us another overpriced plasma with inferior display technology. If Pioneer is going to overcharge us, and they will, they should at least introduce a new technology ala OLED, ala SED, instead of some re-glossed plasma. I prefer plasam to RPTV, I think its a better technology, but plasma is not the future. Plasma is fast losing out to LCD (god help us all) and plasma, with exception of Pioneer, is quickly becoming a commodity.

MEMO to Pioneer:

Please don't try to sell me and other videophiles world wide one of your overpriced, repackaged, reglossed, quickly fading technology, PDP's. We are not excited at all because we know plasma is not the future of display technology, we know that there must be something better.

No more 50 inch 10K plasmas when we all know that plasma is now a commodity.

Many of us would give your arguments more consideration if you had criteria that you were looking for both performance and price and were open to any technology that would meet them. I do not like LCD much, but there is a point that I might give them a good look. Black levels .1, wide viewing angles maintaining color saturation, etc.

- Rich

I hope this isn't some repackaged plasma. I hope this is a brand new display technology and not plasma because plasma has reached its peak a display technology despite Pioneer's self serving news release. You can throw perfume on pig but it still aint going to make smell good.



Um, I don't think I'd call plasma a "pig"....not a great analogy. Fact is, all they have to do is drop the black levels on the high end plasmas and they've already got an SED beater. The one thing that the vast majority of viewers see as just about the main deficiency in plasmas is black levels. Solve that and you've essentially got CRT quality in a flat screen. At that point who needs SED? But hey, SED is a no-show and may well be on the way out anyway.

Keep your dream alive Auditor. ;)

I think its kind of pretentious on Pioneer's part to make claims about some possibly new or recooked plasma technology that is better than SED when all know and as you just stated, wasn't born. So how are they going to compare this recooked plasma technology to SED. It's funny how Pioneer waited until SED officially announced as dead before they made their better than SED claims.

I am sure Pionner didn't see SED falling like it did.
Maybe Pioneer could not contemplate a company(s) more greedy than themselves. ;)

Fill factor problems will kill plasma. No way to completely fix that problem. Buy that perfume by the barrel, because the pig is starting to rot. Maybe OLED will make it. Maybe not. It's all interim technology until the HoloSuite come out.

Um, I don't think I'd call plasma a "pig"....not a great analogy. Fact is, all they have to do is drop the black levels on the high end plasmas and they've already got an SED beater. The one thing that the vast majority of viewers see as just about the main deficiency in plasmas is black levels. Solve that and you've essentially got CRT quality in a flat screen. At that point who needs SED? But hey, SED is a no-show and may well be on the way out anyway.

Keep your dream alive Auditor. ;)

I'm not calling Plasma a pig, plasma is currently one of best display technologies available, I happen to own a Panny plasma. I just believe PDP has already peaked, I don't believe its the display technology of the future.

Plasma does have a problem with black levels, but it also has color banding issues, fill factor issues, dithering etc.

While I find that plasma has better PQ than what I've seen from some Lcos displays, I still believe a TV like Sony's SXRD's has it beat in the area of fill factor. Even on a 1080p plasma like big Panny, you can't sit up close without noticing the pixel gaps.

Of course we don't like RPTV, we like flat panels, SED would have eliminated the fill factor issues related to plasma.

I remember everyone thinking I was crazy when I lamented the fact that 9-inch gun rear projection CRTs with their great black levels were being phased out.

Well guess what--many of the newest TVs and technologies still have black levels that suck and they don't DE-INTERLACE very well. rear Projection LCD had great black levels and since it was 1080i didn't have to DE-INTERLACE.

All of that doesn't mean that rear Projection CRT was great or even that it didn'tn't need to be phased out--maybe it did--all I'm saying is that you're right in some respects Auditor55--Plasma isn't PERFECT--I do though think it can have better blacks potentially than LCD so until a new technology comes along

for the forseeable future--1080p plasma with great blacks and a few years from now 1.3 HDMI and a refresh rate of a multiple of 1080p/24 so you get no judder--that may be about as good as we can get for awhile.

That's not that bad you know!

If Panasonic can ditch silver--ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE!

Well...CRT based displays may have great black level performance, but I for one don't miss having to deal with the convergence, geometry and focus issues. Black level is only one component in picture quality, and all things considered, IMHO, our plasma produces the best overall picture available today.

If SED ever arrives then it will likely be the best, but I'm not holding my breath.

-Steve

plasma is ok but ... :eek: you really dont wanna hook one up to a PC and game 10 hrs per weekend. that was my interest in SED - an eventual SED monitor.

plasma is ok but ... :eek: you really dont wanna hook one up to a PC and game 10 hrs per weekend. that was my interest in SED - an eventual SED monitor.

SED is phosphor based as well, so why did you think it would be better?

- Rich

I remember everyone thinking I was crazy when I lamented the fact that 9-inch gun rear projection CRTs with their great black levels were being phased out.

Well guess what--many of the newest TVs and technologies still have black levels that suck and they don't DE-INTERLACE very well. rear Projection LCD had great black levels and since it was 1080i didn't have to DE-INTERLACE.

All of that doesn't mean that rear Projection CRT was great or even that it didn'tn't need to be phased out--maybe it did--all I'm saying is that you're right in some respects Auditor55--Plasma isn't PERFECT--I do though think it can have better blacks potentially than LCD so until a new technology comes along

for the forseeable future--1080p plasma with great blacks and a few years from now 1.3 HDMI and a refresh rate of a multiple of 1080p/24 so you get no judder--that may be about as good as we can get for awhile.

That's not that bad you know!

If Panasonic can ditch silver--ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE!

I have the silver set, I don't really care for silver, but I think the PQ is better than any of the RPTV alternatives.

They're going to give us another overpriced plasma with inferior display technology.
What do you think about keeping an open mind on a display you've never seen & have no reports from anyone you trust who has seen one?

If plasmas can get CRT blacks, it will be a long step in the right direction. Not the perfect display technology, but much closer.

SED is phosphor based as well, so why did you think it would be better?

- Rich

Replying for the original poster. From my understanding, the plasma jolts used to excite the phosphors are a bit harder on the phosphors than the electrons from an electron emmitter... which is why they were able to create CRT computer monitors that don't burn in except if you show the same image continually for months on end. So with SED, they should be able to make phosphor burn in almost a total non-issue as well for the same reason.

Replying for the original poster. From my understanding, the plasma jolts used to excite the phosphors are a bit harder on the phosphors than the electrons from an electron emmitter... which is why they were able to create CRT computer monitors that don't burn in except if you show the same image continually for months on end. So with SED, they should be able to make phosphor burn in almost a total non-issue as well for the same reason.

Actually, CRTs were listed at 30,000 hours to half brightness and most plasmas are better than that. Also, early SED prototypes suffered from uneven phosphor wear which is one reason they are not shipping.

It is easy for future products to be perfect, imperfections only exist for shipping problems. CRT's have problems too ;)

- Rich

What do you think about keeping an open mind on a display you've never seen & have no reports from anyone you trust who has seen one?

If plasmas can get CRT blacks, it will be a long step in the right direction. Not the perfect display technology, but much closer.

It seems we were yet so close to perfection (SED), but yet so far away. It was like having the holy grail within reach and then having it slip away. :(

SED is dead and Pioneer is capitalizing on the mourners:

"Pioneer Launches Breakthrough Display Technology
Overhaul of Plasma Technology Surpasses Both LCD and SED Regardless of Lighting Conditions"

Due out Summer 2007 !!!

http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/pna/v3/pg/press/release/detail/0,,2076_310069589_396277724,00.html

Toshiba and Canon will be in need of a good grief councelor. It's a good thing they rolled out a seperate company in SED inc... now only that company needs to go bankrupt (ouch!). No wonder they won't invest in that SED plant...


P.S. I was a big suporter of SED technology but Pioneer is coming out with

A) Superior technology
B) Actual US 2007 availability
C) Probably cheaper then SED would have been if launched
D) What brand would you rather own? Pioneer or Toshiba? Let's be honest

=

SED is dead and burried. Actually, i'm not even sure if we can call SED dead as it was never born therefore wasn't actually alive... probably more accurate to refer to it as Ill-timed VaporWare. how is this better then sed? and wow sony steped up on 27'' oled .....

this sounds intresting and this might be the only hope in the next big thing in terms of better tv?

Sure does, and it seems Pioneer was/is determined to build a SED Killer. If Pioneer's past behavior & release dates are any clue, which I think they are, then you will see this all-new re-designed super 1080p 60" Plasma display shipping on-time, on-schedule, and into our happy homes as stated in their press release.

BTW, Canon & Toshiba are no fools, and you can bet they've known about this Pioneer SED Killer Plasma long before we do here on this Forum. Putting the brakes on their scheduled SED Production Facility tells me there's more to it than their Stateside litigation problems. I think they have just flat out missed the boat, and have realized that ship to Display Profit Island has sailed long ago.

From my understanding, the plasma jolts used to excite the phosphors are a bit harder on the phosphors than the electrons from an electron emmitter...

thanks, i knew plasma could burn in faster than CRT but didnt know why, as both are phosphor based like richb said.

but that got me thinking... even my CRT monitors dont last that long...may need to re-think expensive phosphor based displays :rolleyes: .

Sure does, and it seems Pioneer was/is determined to build a SED Killer. If Pioneer's past behavior & release dates are any clue, which I think they are, then you will see this all-new re-designed super 1080p 60" Plasma display shipping on-time, on-schedule, and into our happy homes as stated in their press release.

BTW, Canon & Toshiba are no fools, and you can bet they've known about this Pioneer SED Killer Plasma long before we do here on this Forum. Putting the brakes on their scheduled SED Production Facility tells me there's more to it than their Stateside litigation problems. I think they have just flat out missed the boat, and have realized that ship to Display Profit Island has sailed long ago.

October 2006 CEATEC. Toshiba/Canon last demonstrated the 55inch SED 1080P. Same CEATEC show, Pioneer demonstrated their new Plasma for the first time. Toshiba/Canon would have to have seen it. What impact it had on their subsequent SED decisions is hard to determine. They would be the last to admit that it had. :)

I find it funny that some people are celebrating the potential demise of SED. Why celebrate the demise of any new tech? (and of course I'm not speaking about controversial subjects like cloning or laser guided warheads - although I guess OLED might be touchy if you're a salmon)

I'm used to this behavior in the teen-hormone soaked world of video-gaming where insults are confused for opinions and fanboys wax endlessly about the virtues of their chosen platforms.

New product is good for consumers because new product fosters competition. Competition pushes the market forward, increasing quality and reducing price.

I'm hoping SED makes it. I say who cares if SED comes to market with even a significant price premium. With everything I've seen SED is a marked improvement over LCD and Plasma, so why shouldn't it come at a premium? Plasma was god-awful expensive when it made it's debut, that didn't stop every rapper on MTV cribs from having one in every room :)

Personally I feel that most flat panels are STILL too expensive.

Think of it this way, how much would sony really have to price a 46" 1080p XBR if there was a 55" SED with superior- well pretty much everything- sitting RIGHT next to it on the showroom floor. Even if it was a couple grand above the current price of the sony (quick search nets 3500 to 4000 for 46" XBR series). See my point?

I took advantage of this fact over the holiday. With 1080p all the rage I decided it might be a good time to buy my new tv. I got a 37" 720p LCD for a price that is even now unmentionable. Is there better stuff out there? Heck yeah, but not what my wallet and myself would (or could) agree upon to buy. I mean this is a tv we're talking about. But someone WILL buy it. There's always someone that has to have the best you know! Different strokes for different folks- a 10K display looks cheap next to a brand new Porsche 911 :p

I get geeked about this stuff. I always have to have the latest cell phone, I'm constantly upgrading the pc, and I have more video games than anyone could play in a lifetime. But I'm also a patient consumer. I like to wait for a new product to get established, build some reliability data before I purchase. And the inevitable price reduction is always motivation to resist the "gotta have it" urge. Like I'm going to piss and moan when a new tv twice the size and quality of mine comes out at the price I paid 5 years from now-- man I'm gonna buy it!

Sure does, and it seems Pioneer was/is determined to build a SED Killer.

Impossible, PDP is flat out inferior to SED technology in everyway. Again, its so funny how Pioneer's announces its SED killer after Toshiba announced that they would not be going forward with consumer SED. I don't know about you but to me that sounds like punk.

Again, we did not hear a peep out of Pioneer, I'm sure their so-called SED killer was in developement. We all know that Pioneer as well as other plasma manufacturers breathed a sigh of relief at what appears to be the demise of SED.

Pioneer in particular must have been happy because it seems they have casted their lot all in PDP technology, they have no Lcos, LCD, CRT, DLP, OLED etc. they would have been completely out of the ball game if SED would have came to the market.

Pioneer is not out of the woods yet, as we all know LCD is gaining on plasma and seems poise to dominate the market, again, Pioneer doesn't manufacturer LCD displays. Pioneer is trying to fill a void that SED would have filled, the high performance, high end display market.

I dunno, the stunning price declines and performance increases of PDP and LCD on display at CES make me wonder -- again -- about whether this technology can have any impact at all in the marketplace....

Next year, the incumbents are again going to be 10-25% cheaper (depending on brand, features, etc.). They will have brought online yet another round of capacity to make bigger, better, cheaper.

SED as conceived is imagined as pricier than today's most pricey sets and still saddled with a brand name -- Toshiba -- that carries to cachet in the U.S. or Japan. They are also going to be limited to a single-size (the 55-incher) for at least the first year and possibly longer.

I'm not even a little sure the new Pioneer is superior to what SED might do. But I'm 100% sure Pioneer will deliver a meaningful increase in performance either later this year or early next (worst case). It also seems likely that PDP and LCDs from mainstream, tier-one brands are going to price at $3000-10,000 in the 60-65-inch category this year. By next year, that range should max out at $8,000. It's reasonably likely that $10,000 would be the targeted introductory price of SED next year, but obviously that isn't going to be a volume price point.

And the same chicken-and-egg with regards to volume and cheaper production and cheaper production and volume is there. Only it's worse ever few months as "volume" requires a lower and lower price. (Witness the new Vizio 47-inch LCD and the new Philips 63-inch plasma -- both price breakthroughs in their categories).

Pioneer, for what it's worth, is trying to move up the pricing curve a bit with this new technology, but honestly, I doubt their 60-inch is going to even have an SRP above $10,000. Panasonic is going to likely be around $8,000 in the holiday shopping season and Sharp might well be there too. No doubt Pioneer can be higher for the performance (and also losing 5 inches), but psychologically, retail is going to be moving somewhat permanently into the 4 figures this year (note: the CEDIA channel is somewhat different, but Pioneer's model requires more volume than the CEDIA channel would offer on it's own, Fujitsu by contrast doesn't care if Aviamo is only about a 5,000 seller +/-).

I have no interest on seeing Canon pull the plug on this technology, but I wouldn't be surprised. It sounds like they kinda tried to pull a fast one on Nano and Nano -- correctly -- assumes this is the only licensing deal for this technology they are ever getting with respect to TVs. Of course, they are going to try to extract their fair sure. And, of course, Canon is going to try to pay the least it can.

Once again, however, by all accounts the push forward to build a plant has either been slowed or stopped entirely pending the outcome of this mess. And the prospects for SED being ready for the Beijing Olympics seem a bit fainter. Oh, and if you are not a 55-inch fan, but shopping for a TV this decade... hmmm... I'd go find something else because Toshiba/Canon are not too likely to help you.

Mark

(Disclaimer: The discussion on the single-size of SED took place with a few people at CES, including a well-known industry journalist. It has been confirmed that the production processes of SED -- since they are not lithography variants like much of plasma and LCD -- do not lend themselves to easily scaling the display size. It is much more challenging to make SED in multiple sizes, which is not entirely important given that the product is intentionally going to be premium priced for at least several years and only larger sizes can actually command premiums in the current market. But prospects for a 60+ inch model or larger are not good for the foreseeable future.)

October 2006 CEATEC. Toshiba/Canon last demonstrated the 55inch SED 1080P. Same CEATEC show, Pioneer demonstrated their new Plasma for the first time. Toshiba/Canon would have to have seen it. What impact it had on their subsequent SED decisions is hard to determine. They would be the last to admit that it had. :)

Yes Toshiba/Canon and video display world that was attendance saw the Pioneer and they were not impressed. According to reports, SED, not Plasma, stole the show, there was standing room only crowds waiting for SED. SED showed a 55 inch 100,000-1 CR display while Pioneer demonstrated their repackaged, recooked, with its little 20k-1 CR (boo boo), maxed out plasma display technology to which no one was really interested.

I find it funny that some people are celebrating the potential demise of SED.

I don't.

I think they are either:

1. Paid shills
2. Idiots
3. In love with their inferior plasma products, ergo, idiots

Sad, really.

what i dont understand is why doesnt canon(toshiba) just deal with what ever they need to do and get back on track? theirs a gap missing and tahts why everyone is assuming sed is dead . again nobody answer my question how is the new pioneer better then sed???? or is just bs?

Look--If SED really is that great then you could make zillions off of it--if you make zillions off of it then you certainly would pay a FEW zillion to settle any patent infringement case--heck you'd buy out the company--that's what Microsoft would do if they had that problem.

Not only would you do that but you'd do it fast because of the dropping prices of Plasmas and flat Panel LCDs and especially since they are getting better and better.

No sense of urgency on Toshiba/Canon's part just proves to me that the SED dog will not hunt.

It also appears that Toshiba can't stick with anything long enough to perfect it--all SED is is Toshiba LCoS except never selling any of them!

Look--If SED really is that great then you could make zillions off of it--if you make zillions off of it then you certainly would pay a FEW zillion to settle any patent infringement case--heck you'd buy out the company--that's what Microsoft would do if they had that problem.

Not only would you do that but you'd do it fast because of the dropping prices of Plasmas and flat Panel LCDs and especially since they are getting better and better.

No sense of urgency on Toshiba/Canon's part just proves to me that the SED dog will not hunt.

It also appears that Toshiba can't stick with anything long enough to perfect it--all SED is is Toshiba LCoS except never selling any of them! ;) Good post.

I don't think anyone is reveling over SED's demise but rather simply being pragmatic about it. And given SED's limbo status does that not make the recent advancements in plasma, lcd and oled all the more exciting in the interim?

"Regardless, we left the Pioneer demonstration just as excited as when we walked out of Toshiba's SED demonstration exactly one year ago."
Gerry Block - IGN (http://gear.ign.com/articles/753/753836p1.html)

i have to disagree with the last 3 post , how can pioneer really claim their are better then sed? why not say this BEFORE sed was called off for ces 07 , better yet why is everyone assuming sed is out of the picture just because it has to go to court to nano? and bad comparsion as ms is a hugely reinversment company while toshiba/cannon just dont think that they should pay alot , maybe thats why im not sure but right now i wish audithor would shine in for some response from the last 3 post .....

Just ran across this (sorry if its old news)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070112/tc_nm/canon_toshiba_tvs_dc_3

Just ran across this (sorry if its old news)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070112/tc_nm/canon_toshiba_tvs_dc_3

heaven's no its not old new news lol 28 mins ago .... thanks

so my thought since both (toshiba and cannon)now know this tech they might just split meanwhile that court issue is fixed , it says that cannon is making a new tv flat one .... here read

TOKYO (Reuters) - Canon Inc. (7751.T) will make a new type of ultra-thin flat-panel TV on its own, buying out Toshiba Corp.'s (6502.T) stake in their joint venture to resolve a patent dispute, the Nikkei business daily said in its Friday evening edition. Company sources at Canon and Toshiba said the two companies would issue a statement on their joint venture, SED Inc., at 3 p.m. (0600 GMT) but declined further comment.

The firms have been working on developing surface conduction electron-emitter display (SED) TVs, with production due to begin at the end of 2007. SED TVs are thinner and consume less energy than liquid crystal display (LCD) and plasma TVs.

Canon and Toshiba had been considering delaying or scrapping their plan to build a $1.7 billion SED plant due to a patent dispute with Nano-Proprietary Inc. (OTC BB:NNPP.OB - news), a source close to the matter said late last year.

Texas-based Nano-Proprietary brought a lawsuit against Canon in 2005, claiming that its license agreement with Canon covering its patented flat-panel technology did not extend to the venture with Toshiba.

The Nikkei report said the purchase price of Toshiba's 50 percent stake in SED Inc. would be around 10 billion yen ($80 million). The two companies have said in the past they would invest 100 billion yen each in the new plant.

...the SED saga continues... .

brilliant move.... i never ever expected toshiba to bow out after all that was invested. and canon stepping up to make tv's? crazy :D

to nano: if the glove don't fit you must aquit! hit the road buster. imagine it....a canon SED tv.

Well, at least this shows that Canon still wants to do SED. I guess they want to broaden their product range and instead of joining the Plasma/LCD crowd (where they'd be at a major disadvantage due to not having any experience) they want to use their own technology, which happens to be not a bad one at all, anyway. So let's see how this plays out.

In the meanwhile I'll likely buy one of those 8G Pioneer plasmas, as soon as they're available.

P.S: I'm beginning to wonder that if SED comes to the mass market at all, it might come so late that it will have to compete against OLED instead of LCD/Plasma. In that case the advantages in PQ over the competition might be lost.

Well, at least this shows that Canon still wants to do SED. I guess they want to broaden their product range and instead of joining the Plasma/LCD crowd (where they'd be at a major disadvantage due to not having any experience) they want to use their own technology, which happens to be not a bad one at all, anyway. So let's see how this plays out.

In the meanwhile I'll likely buy one of those 8G Pioneer plasmas, as soon as they're available.

P.S: I'm beginning to wonder that if SED comes to the mass market at all, it might come so late that it will have to compete against OLED instead of LCD/Plasma. In that case the advantages in PQ over the competition might be lost.

Geeez, this just gets better & better. Perhaps it's good news that Canon is assuming the full reins to drive SED, but think about it a moment. Canon will have to be solely responsible to SED video tech and mfg'ering a TV, in which they have had zero experience. Canon will have to pony up the entire 1.5 Billion for a production plant if they want any product volume, which they will need to make any money at all. Where is their distribution network? This will have to be built up over time. Too many frack'in "IF'S" in pot!

To the poster that thinks we're all just slamming SED because we've chosen another video tech, etc. etc. blah, blah. You are so wrong and off the mark. Of course we would like to see another competing flat panel video tech, and especially one that has the PQ of a SED. But we are also pragmatic and realists, and for myself and the years I've been an AV enthusist, I've been down this road before w/CE products and development. We've been dancing around the proverbial SED rose bush for a few years now. The SED dream is tainted, and many of those people that were "waiting for SED" before chucking out that old 27" CRT need to know that their long wait will most likely be futile.

"SED TVs are to be introduced in Japan in the fourth quarter of 2007 as originally scheduled, although Canon will reassess its future mass-production plans for SED panels."

http://www.about-electronics.eu/2007/01/12/toshiba-bails-on-sed-tv/

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20070112PR203.html

LMAO....this drama should be on daytime TV!

"SED TVs are to be introduced in Japan in the fourth quarter of 2007 as originally scheduled, although Canon will reassess its future mass-production plans for SED panels."

http://www.about-electronics.eu/2007/01/12/toshiba-bails-on-sed-tv/

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20070112PR203.html

LMAO....this drama should be on daytime TV!

This is amazing.

What it means is that Canon really believes they have a business case with SED.

To the extent that they let serious MONEY do the talking in light of the Nano lawsuit.

WOW.

Daytime drama, indeed.

Geeez, this just gets better & better. Perhaps it's good news that Canon is assuming the full reins to drive SED, but think about it a moment. Canon will have to be solely responsible to SED video tech and mfg'ering a TV, in which they have had zero experience. Canon will have to pony up the entire 1.5 Billion for a production plant if they want any product volume, which they will need to make any money at all. Where is their distribution network? This will have to be built up over time. Too many frack'in "IF'S" in pot!
I'm currently as pessimistic about the SED outlook as you are. But still I *hope* Canon will succeed with SED and because of that motivation I'm glad about any positive hints and signs. For me the fact that Canon is willing to buy Toshiba out and continue with SED on its own is a good sign compared to what else could have happened, namely the full, complete and final stop of SED.

This is amazing.

What it means is that Canon really believes they have a business case with SED.

To the extent that they let serious MONEY do the talking in light of the Nano lawsuit.

WOW.

Daytime drama, indeed.

This is great news, SED is Back!! :D :D :D

Major props to Canon for keeping the dream alive.

This is bad news for Pioneer.

Just fantastic news!! This news has made my day.

Toshiba and Canon just ran a quarterback sneak, it seems like when it comes to making SED sets, Toshiba will still be calling plays from the sidelines until Canon learns to the system. Great game plan!!

Take a look at what Nano stock is trading for, and the total value of the Company. If the lawsuit was the only thing stopping Toshiba/Canon from going ahead with SED production, they could have bought Nano, and owned all their patent rights, for a very reasonable price. We have had a lot of contradictory spin from both Companies, in the past few months. Remember Toshiba Honcho stated recently that they could not see a price competitive way to introduce SED consumer panels. The patent dispute allows them a way to exit from a venture that they had already stated was not going to allow them to deliver a major money making consumer product. Canon can say what ever they want. They are not in the Consumer TV market, so they can take all the time they want to improve their current zero generation panel product. Canon would not have entered into a partnership with Toshiba if they thought that they could go it alone. That has not changed.

Canon will have to be solely responsible to SED video tech and mfg'ering a TV, in which they have had zero experience.

Too true. Perhaps they'll just crank out panels and let an established brand wrap electronics around it to produce TVs.

Take a look at what Nano stock is trading for, and the total value of the Company. If the lawsuit was the only thing stopping Toshiba/Canon from going ahead with SED production, they could have bought Nano, and owned all their patent rights, for a very reasonable price. We have had a lot of contradictory spin from both Companies, in the past few months. Remember Toshiba Honcho stated recently that they could not see a price competitive way to introduce SED consumer panels. The patent dispute allows them a way to exit from a venture that they had already stated was not going to allow them to deliver a major money making consumer product. Canon can say what ever they want. They are not in the Consumer TV market, so they can take all the time they want to improve their current zero generation panel product. Canon would not have entered into a partnership with Toshiba if they thought that they could go it alone. That has not changed.

There's a first time for everything. Canon will be rookie of the year with SED, especially with Toshiba calling the plays from the sideline.

I know it hurts you that SED is back :cool:

This great news is featured on the Canon website

http://www.canon.com/press/2007/sed2007jan12.html

This great news is featured on the Canon website

http://www.canon.com/press/2007/sed2007jan12.html


"Canon will purchase from Toshiba all of Toshiba's outstanding shares of SED Inc., "

All I can say is......... Great News for Toshiba!! :D

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
Abraham Lincoln, (attributed)
16th president of US (1809 - 1865)

But in this case, you can fool one person, all the time.... ;)

Too true. Perhaps they'll just crank out panels and let an established brand wrap electronics around it to produce TVs.


Sounds like they are already planning on doing this.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070112/ap_on_hi_te/japan_canon_joint_venture_1

"Canon and Toshiba will produce SED television sets in Japan later this year as originally planned, although Canon will reassess its future mass-production plans for SED panels, the statement said.

Though the joint venture, set up in 2004, will be fully taken over by Canon under an agreement between the two companies, Toshiba is planning to procure SED panels from Canon in the future and assemble its own SED TVs, said Toshiba spokesman Keisuke Ohmori."

"Canon will purchase from Toshiba all of Toshiba's outstanding shares of SED Inc., "

All I can say is......... Great News for Toshiba!! :D

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
Abraham Lincoln, (attributed)
16th president of US (1809 - 1865)

But in this case, you can fool one person, all the time.... ;)

Take heed to those words!!

Say no to repackaged plasma technology.

AUSTIN, TX -- (MARKET WIRE) -- January 12, 2007 -- Nano-Proprietary, Inc. (OTCBB: NNPP) today announced that it is pleased Canon, Inc. and Toshiba Corporation have decided to continue to move forward with their SED TV.

"Restructuring of Canon's ownership position does not resolve the pending litigation which goes to trial in a few weeks," said Tom Bijou, Chief Executive Officer of Nano-Proprietary, Inc. "We have terminated Canon's license as a result of breach of contract. Moreover, our complaint against Canon includes other counts, including fraud unrelated to the ownership of SED. We are, however, willing to enter into a new license agreement with Canon on reasonable terms."