AUSTIN, TX -- (MARKET WIRE) -- January 12, 2007 -- Nano-Proprietary, Inc. (OTCBB: NNPP) today announced that it is pleased Canon, Inc. and Toshiba Corporation have decided to continue to move forward with their SED TV.

"Restructuring of Canon's ownership position does not resolve the pending litigation which goes to trial in a few weeks," said Tom Bijou, Chief Executive Officer of Nano-Proprietary, Inc. "We have terminated Canon's license as a result of breach of contract. Moreover, our complaint against Canon includes other counts, including fraud unrelated to the ownership of SED. We are, however, willing to enter into a new license agreement with Canon on reasonable terms."

Leave this one up to the Jury and we will be having SED sooner rather later. Once a jury feast their eyes on SED (exhibit A) it will be all over. :D

>>Originally Posted by options
AUSTIN, TX -- (MARKET WIRE) -- January 12, 2007 -- Nano-Proprietary, Inc. (OTCBB: NNPP) today announced that it is pleased Canon, Inc. and Toshiba Corporation have decided to continue to move forward with their SED TV.

"Restructuring of Canon's ownership position does not resolve the pending litigation which goes to trial in a few weeks," said Tom Bijou, Chief Executive Officer of Nano-Proprietary, Inc. "We have terminated Canon's license as a result of breach of contract. Moreover, our complaint against Canon includes other counts, including fraud unrelated to the ownership of SED. We are, however, willing to enter into a new license agreement with Canon on reasonable terms." <<

Translate:

We announce that we are corporate whores and we have our price.

Take a look at what Nano stock is trading for, and the total value of the Company. If the lawsuit was the only thing stopping Toshiba/Canon from going ahead with SED production, they could have bought Nano, and owned all their patent rights, for a very reasonable price. We have had a lot of contradictory spin from both Companies, in the past few months. Remember Toshiba Honcho stated recently that they could not see a price competitive way to introduce SED consumer panels. The patent dispute allows them a way to exit from a venture that they had already stated was not going to allow them to deliver a major money making consumer product. Canon can say what ever they want. They are not in the Consumer TV market, so they can take all the time they want to improve their current zero generation panel product. Canon would not have entered into a partnership with Toshiba if they thought that they could go it alone. That has not changed.

FYI: Nano-Proprietary market cap is $140 million. The Canon buyout cost $82 million.

>>Originally Posted by options
AUSTIN, TX -- (MARKET WIRE) -- January 12, 2007 -- Nano-Proprietary, Inc. (OTCBB: NNPP) today announced that it is pleased Canon, Inc. and Toshiba Corporation have decided to continue to move forward with their SED TV.

"Restructuring of Canon's ownership position does not resolve the pending litigation which goes to trial in a few weeks," said Tom Bijou, Chief Executive Officer of Nano-Proprietary, Inc. "We have terminated Canon's license as a result of breach of contract. Moreover, our complaint against Canon includes other counts, including fraud unrelated to the ownership of SED. We are, however, willing to enter into a new license agreement with Canon on reasonable terms." <<

Translate:

We announce that we are corporate whores and we have our price.

yep, you hit right on the nose!!

,FYI: Nano-Proprietary market cap is $140 million. The Canon buyout cost $82 million.

So, hypothetically, If Toshiba/Canon were serious about going ahead with SED production and had to have the use of Nano patent rights, can you give a rough, or even a fairly precise, estimate of how much it would have cost them to actually purchase Nano-Proprietary, lock, stock, and barrel. Through the years, Bill Gates used that tactic ,once he got into rights infringement challenges. Looks like Google is now just starting to purchase stuff in the same way. Any idea of what Toshiba/Canon would have to pay to become total owners of Nano?.

So, hypothetically, If Toshiba/Canon were serious about going ahead with SED production and had to have the use of Nano patent rights, can you give a rough, or even a fairly precise, estimate of how much it would have cost them to actually purchase Nano-Proprietary, lock stock and barrel. Through the years, Bill Gates used that tactic,once he got into rights infringement challenges. Looks like Google is now just starting to purchase stuff in the same way. Any idea of what Toshiba/Canon would have to pay to become total owners of Nano?.

The short answer is I don't know.

With any buyout, there is usually some sort of premium (a multiple of the $140M market value) required. What that would be I don't know, but the way Canon has chosen to go about it seems to be the cheaper alternative assuming they win any potential lawsuit. I would assume they considered both options.

The short answer is I don't know.

With any buyout, there is usually some sort of premium (a multiple of the $140M market value) required. What that would be I don't know, but the way Canon has chosen to go about it seems to be the cheaper alternative assuming they win any potential lawsuit. I would assume they considered both options.

Hard to say what Canon has considered, given the fact that Toshiba has now withdrawn from the SED project. It would seem like Canon did not do enough serious consideration about who they could share Nano patent rights with, before embarking on a partnership with Toshiba. Actions speak louder that words, and last minute cancellation of SED at CES, and Toshiba now no longer a partner, would appear to indicate that Canon did commit a major mistake.

What exactly is Nano's IP in SED?

Whatever manufacturing efficiencies are ultimately achieved, these patents could keep the prices beyond the mainstream.

Canon will have to be solely responsible to SED video tech and mfg'ering a TV, in which they have had zero experience.

Too true. Perhaps they'll just crank out panels and let an established brand wrap electronics around it to produce TVs.

There was a rumor a while back that Canon would buy into the TV biz by acquiring JVC...

There was a rumor a while back that Canon would buy into the TV biz by acquiring JVC...

I'm so glad they didn't.

This was the second-most important strategic initiative for Toshiba and now they are out? Um, sorry, you can't spin that as good news.

Let's recap what occurred:

(1) Canon tried to buyout Toshiba's stake in the plant because apparently, their own attorneys agree that they aren't going to be able to make all this litigation go away with a wave of the hand -- particularly the issue of who exactly licensed the patents.

(2) Toshiba agreed to drop a major strategic initiative -- owning a next-gen flat-panel technology at least at the 50% level -- just like that. Procuring SED panels and assembling its own TVs is what Toshiba does now with plasma and LCD. Do you really think their TV division is going to prioritize the SED business over anything else unless it's going to be more profitable?

(3) There is now no TV manufacturer actively backing SED. There is a very good camera/optics maker backing it.

(4) The plans for a mass-production facility are off. Canon is not currently envisioning a $1.5 billion (approx.) SED plant. They are discussing small-quantity production on their own facilities.

(5) Some of this may be gamesmanship, but even if it were all settled tomorrow, you will not see Canon make these announcements and then suddenly reverse course and carry out the original plan just like that. It would make them look exceedingly foolish to investors, who are right now rewarding them for backpedaling on this technology.

I own a very nice plasma TV, but I'm not foolish enough to believe it's the be all and end all of anything. This thread seems to be a constant harangue agains people who disagree with each other. Enjoy that, in the meantime, I'm just commenting on what's going on.

And in short, the prospects for the commercialization of this technology continue to dim. The prospects for it becoming mainstream are fainter all the time. It's too bad. Seems as though the "successor" that's coming real soon is better LCD and PDP... And perhaps we'll see commercialization of large-size OLEDs around 2010-12.

More:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/12/AR2007011200518.html

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/01/12/canon-set-to-buy-out-toshibas-display-stake-sed-production-in/

Canon to buy Toshiba's stake in display unit

By Aiko Wakao
Reuters
Friday, January 12, 2007; 5:17 AM



TOKYO (Reuters) - Canon Inc. said on Friday it will buy out Toshiba Corp. in their flat-panel display venture to resolve a patent dispute with Nano-Proprietary Inc. in the United States.

Canon will now own the unit that was set up in 2004 to develop a new type of thin panels that can be used in TVs to challenge consumer electronics giants such as Samsung Electronics and Matsushita Electric Industrial Co. Ltd.

The move is aimed at appeasing Texas-based Nano-Proprietary, which filed a lawsuit claiming that its 1999 agreement to license technology to Canon did not extend to Toshiba. Toshiba has a 50 percent stake in the joint venture, called SED Ltd.

But it may also pose a bigger risk for the future of Canon, the world's top maker of copiers and digital cameras, which has been hoping the new display business will become a major profit driver as it expects cooling demand and price declines in its existing core products.

The surface-conduction electron-emitter display (SED) TVs are said to have brighter pictures and consume less energy than the current types of flat TVs such as liquid crystal display (LCD) and plasma, but analysts doubt they will be cost competitive.

"We currently have limited expectation that SEDs can catch up to LCD and plasma TVs," Ryohei Katsura, an analyst at Mizuho Securities Co., wrote in a report earlier this month.

In addition, the plan to build a 180 billion yen ($1.49 billion) factory this year at a site owned by Toshiba in Himeji, western Japan, to mass-produce the panels is under review, Canon said.

Tokyo-based Canon and Toshiba delayed the launch of SED TVs last March to the October-December quarter of 2007 to improve cost competitiveness and combat steep price erosion.

Without a new plan for mass production, Canon may have to "reconsider growth drivers to replace SED," Katsura said.

Canon, which is set to report a seventh year of record earnings when it announces fourth-quarter results later this month, has been posting double-digit profit margins thanks to strong sales of copiers and printers and rigorous cost-cutting.

Katsura said the market may view a decision to scrap the new factory plan more favorably than a decision to invest without taking cost-effectiveness into consideration.

Canon said it will manufacture the displays on a smaller scale at its own plant for the launch in Japan, which is still scheduled for the fourth quarter as planned.

Even without the stake in the display venture, Toshiba said it will buy some displays from Canon and sell SED TVs under the Toshiba brand, while Canon will separately market its own TVs.

Some analysts said the change in plan may be positive for Canon shareholders.

"Investors in Canon have always wanted the company to use its ample cash flow in some form or another, and they are going to like the move as effective investment in a new business," said Keishin Mo, an analyst at Shinko Securities.

The companies declined to provide financial details of the transaction, which is scheduled for completion on January 29.

"The decision was reached following discussions between Canon and Toshiba based on the assumption of prolonged litigation pending against Canon in the United States with respect to SED," the companies said in a statement.

Last month, the companies scrapped a plan to display a 55-inch SED TV at the Consumer Electronics Show, one of the biggest industry events, in Las Vegas this week.

Shares of Canon closed up 1.2 percent at 6,540 yen in Tokyo, in line with the gain in the overall market. Toshiba rose 0.9 percent to 819 yen.

(Additional reporting by Sachi Izumi and Aiko Hayashi)

More:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/12/AR2007011200518.html

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/01/12/canon-set-to-buy-out-toshibas-display-stake-sed-production-in/

Canon to buy Toshiba's stake in display unit

By Aiko Wakao
Reuters
Friday, January 12, 2007; 5:17 AM



TOKYO (Reuters) - Canon Inc. said on Friday it will buy out Toshiba Corp. in their flat-panel display venture to resolve a patent dispute with Nano-Proprietary Inc. in the United States.

Canon will now own the unit that was set up in 2004 to develop a new type of thin panels that can be used in TVs to challenge consumer electronics giants such as Samsung Electronics and Matsushita Electric Industrial Co. Ltd.

The move is aimed at appeasing Texas-based Nano-Proprietary, which filed a lawsuit claiming that its 1999 agreement to license technology to Canon did not extend to Toshiba. Toshiba has a 50 percent stake in the joint venture, called SED Ltd.

But it may also pose a bigger risk for the future of Canon, the world's top maker of copiers and digital cameras, which has been hoping the new display business will become a major profit driver as it expects cooling demand and price declines in its existing core products.

The surface-conduction electron-emitter display (SED) TVs are said to have brighter pictures and consume less energy than the current types of flat TVs such as liquid crystal display (LCD) and plasma, but analysts doubt they will be cost competitive.

"We currently have limited expectation that SEDs can catch up to LCD and plasma TVs," Ryohei Katsura, an analyst at Mizuho Securities Co., wrote in a report earlier this month.

In addition, the plan to build a 180 billion yen ($1.49 billion) factory this year at a site owned by Toshiba in Himeji, western Japan, to mass-produce the panels is under review, Canon said.

Tokyo-based Canon and Toshiba delayed the launch of SED TVs last March to the October-December quarter of 2007 to improve cost competitiveness and combat steep price erosion.

Without a new plan for mass production, Canon may have to "reconsider growth drivers to replace SED," Katsura said.

Canon, which is set to report a seventh year of record earnings when it announces fourth-quarter results later this month, has been posting double-digit profit margins thanks to strong sales of copiers and printers and rigorous cost-cutting.

Katsura said the market may view a decision to scrap the new factory plan more favorably than a decision to invest without taking cost-effectiveness into consideration.

Canon said it will manufacture the displays on a smaller scale at its own plant for the launch in Japan, which is still scheduled for the fourth quarter as planned.

Even without the stake in the display venture, Toshiba said it will buy some displays from Canon and sell SED TVs under the Toshiba brand, while Canon will separately market its own TVs.

Some analysts said the change in plan may be positive for Canon shareholders.

"Investors in Canon have always wanted the company to use its ample cash flow in some form or another, and they are going to like the move as effective investment in a new business," said Keishin Mo, an analyst at Shinko Securities.

The companies declined to provide financial details of the transaction, which is scheduled for completion on January 29.

"The decision was reached following discussions between Canon and Toshiba based on the assumption of prolonged litigation pending against Canon in the United States with respect to SED," the companies said in a statement.

Last month, the companies scrapped a plan to display a 55-inch SED TV at the Consumer Electronics Show, one of the biggest industry events, in Las Vegas this week.

Shares of Canon closed up 1.2 percent at 6,540 yen in Tokyo, in line with the gain in the overall market. Toshiba rose 0.9 percent to 819 yen.

(Additional reporting by Sachi Izumi and Aiko Hayashi)

Great post and great news, despite how some of these SED grinches try to spin it.

wow i had a feeling that one of the company might of done this to get their backs off the greedy nano company lol , alto its smart of toshiba doing this , if you read on the post

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/01/12/canon-set-to-buy-out-toshibas-display-stake-sed-production-in/

it says that toshiba can simply just buy cannons tv and rebadge it and therefore
nano cant touch them... all in all this excellent news .... see i didnt drop my hope thus not changing my signiture :D

There's not too many technologies that eventually surfaced after hitting as many snags as these long-awaited SED TVs, but it looks like the final hurdle may finally be overcome. Canon has just announced that it will buy out Toshiba's stake in the pair's joint venture in order to get that pesky Nano-Proprietary patent lawsuit off their collective backs. The lawsuit claimed that its original agreement to license technology to Canon did not extend to Toshiba, thus presenting quite the quandary when Toshiba kept trying to get its SED displays out to showroom floors. SED TV production, however, is still up in the air, as Canon said that prior plans to erect a $1.49 billion manufacturing facility in Japan is now "under review," and an analyst even mentioned that the company might end up "reconsidering growth drivers to replace SED." Nevertheless, Canon is still clinging to the idea of popping out SEDs for now, although it was mentioned that it would be "on a smaller scale," which isn't apt to give these elusive sets any kind of price advantage whenever it lands. Interestingly, Toshiba still stated that if things went smoothly, it would buy some of the manufactured SED displays directly from Canon and throw its own logo on it, theoretically bypassing the lawsuit and simultaneously snubbing Nano-Proprietary. But hey, we've got no qualms with a little joint venture competition, and considering how every other HDTV price is falling through the floor, we'll bet they need it.

I'm allready on my 2nd HD display (the 2nd replaced the 1st one) and my timeframe for my 3rd to replace the 2nd one is late summer 2008.

3 things need to happen for me to consider SED:

1) Product actually showing up for sale in Japan by the end of 2007
2) Official annoucement of North American release for 2008
3) Actual product showing up for sale before the 2008 olympics which are set for August so that means June-July timeframe.

P.S. I don't actually care about getting the display for the olympics... just care about getting it before the start of the Fall 2008 TV season & NFL Football kick off.

If 1,2 & 3 happen, my guess is the demand will be much stronger then the supply and we'll probably have to get on a waiting list or have inside connections in order to get one.

I that scenario doesnt pan out, i'll go with an 8th or 9th gen Pioneer. I know someone who just came back from CES and saw the 8th gen and mentions it was displayed side by side with pioneers own 7th gen plasma. Apparently when the demos where done running and there was absence of video feed, the 7th gen was dark gray while the 8th gen was pitch black. Also, colours where outstanding.

wow i had a feeling that one of the company might of done this to get their backs off the greedy nano company lol , alto its smart of toshiba doing this , if you read on the post

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/01/12/canon-set-to-buy-out-toshibas-display-stake-sed-production-in/

it says that toshiba can simply just buy cannons tv and rebadge it and therefore
nano cant touch them... all in all this excellent news .... see i didnt drop my hope thus not changing my signiture :D

Just great news!!

This is great news, SED is Back!! :D :D :D

Major props to Canon for keeping the dream alive.

This is bad news for Pioneer.

Just fantastic news!! This news has made my day.

Great news! It sounds like both companies will still be involved. Maybe I'll get a chance to see this thing in person after all. I can stop moping now.

"it says that toshiba can simply just buy cannons tv and rebadge it and therefore
nano cant touch them"

As things currently stand, Nano Proprietary has revoked Canon's license to its patents. If Canon builds anything that infringes on them, everyone can be touched. Canon sure seems to have agreed -- via the license -- that they needed Nano's patents to pursue this. Whether Nano could actually cancel on them, I don't know. I haven't read the license agreement and neither have you. But if Nano has grounds to revoke the license and a settlement is not reached, you won't see SEDs from anyone in all likelihood. Willful patent infringement is not regarded well in the courts.

Can I get some of what Auditor55 is smoking? That must be good stuff!!!!

Nano Proprietary originally agreed to a one time fee of less than 6 million dollars.

They estimate their "damages" now at between 74 and 786 million dollars.

http://www.nano-proprietary.com/About/CanonExpertWitness.asp

This is a bad joke.Is there any doubt whats going on?

The only positive that will come out of this is that they have exposed themselves for what they are.No other company will enter into an agreement with them knowing that after they have spent hundreds of millions developing a product Nano will be back with lawyers and open wallets.

Well no one else is gonna be able to pony up the scratch to launch a new display technology based on nano's technology. As it is, Sony plans to have a small OLED TV on the market in 2007, so 2008 is looking really late to launch SED. Samsung is persuing an SED-like technology (FED) apparently without anything from nano. Lawyers - hmmph. Don't they know that good parasites don't kill their hosts?

SED, OLED and 3D HDTVs are still vaporware to me, but if Philips can produce a 63PFP7422D (http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-12760_7-9672323-5.html?tag=blog) for an MSRP of $3499 this June, they have the ability to flood the market with a reasonably expensive BIG screen FP TV that is affordable to the masses. This pricing strategy will force more expensive PDP builders like Fujitsu & Pioneer to sell their displays for less in order to remain competitive or risk being forced out of the PDP business.

Soon the masses will be enjoying shows like "My Name is Earl" on their BIG screen 63" FP 1080p PDP, purchased at their local Wal Mart, Sam’s Club, BJs Wholesale Club, K Mart, Costco or some other "you name it" Big Box store. :D

"Sony plans to have a small OLED TV on the market in 2007"

In fact, they have no such plans. Sir Howard discussed perhaps selling a 20-something-inch model in 2008, not this year. It's not even close to production ready.

"...so 2008 is looking really late to launch SED"

But here you couldn't be more correct. There's a long list of posts that explain why 2006 was too late to launch it. The reality is that even if it's the best thing on the market, every year makes the building of scale economics against ever cheaper LCDs and PDPs that much more far fetched. Without scale economics, this technology will indeed fail. Some of us were explaining this 3 years ago. Then last year, Toshiba admitted as much.

It's increasingly impossible to get a point across here to people who are in love with the promise of a technology (and, fwiw, I'd love to see SED on the market as I've reiterated dozens of times). They assume -- incorrectly -- that the performance edge will be so significant that enough people will buy it to make it viable and, perhaps a bit more naively, that because it can exist it will.

Field emissive displays have consumed well in excess of a billion dollars in R&D over 30 years without ever reaching the market. When they were first conceived, there were no flat panels. Today, we have two incredibly mature technologies that are cheap to make and perform at increasing levels (anyone that saw the latest stuff at CES and wasn't impressed is confused at best). And the reality is that OLED production is happening today, albeit in tiny sizes. Unlike the claims of SED about cheaper production -- claims that are laughable and won't be achieved vs. plasma and LCD for a decade if ever -- there are production techniques being perfect that >>might<< allow for cheap OLED displays within 3-5 years. OLED -- unlike SED -- also scales to multiple sizes easily.

Now, there isn't any chance you'll be buying a home-theater sized OLED this decade unless you are wealthy and lucky (I highly doubt any production model will actually reach 50 inches before 2011; in fact it could be years later). There is some chance you'll have a home-theater-sized SED purchase option by late 2008. But if this lawsuit isn't resolved soon, Canon will also drop out and the technology will die right there. Canon shareholders apparently would be delighted to see this happen, for whatever that's worth.

Can't they just glue some small OLEDs together to get a big one? With OLED being so thin and tiny, I could imagine that this might actually work...

"it says that toshiba can simply just buy cannons tv and rebadge it and therefore
nano cant touch them"

As things currently stand, Nano Proprietary has revoked Canon's license to its patents. If Canon builds anything that infringes on them, everyone can be touched. Canon sure seems to have agreed -- via the license -- that they needed Nano's patents to pursue this. Whether Nano could actually cancel on them, I don't know. I haven't read the license agreement and neither have you. But if Nano has grounds to revoke the license and a settlement is not reached, you won't see SEDs from anyone in all likelihood. Willful patent infringement is not regarded well in the courts.

sure everyone can touch it but the question is will cannon sell them the tvs?

Without scale economics, this technology will indeed fail. Some of us were explaining this 3 years ago. Then last year, Toshiba admitted as much.







so you think thats the main reason toshiba dropped out. if SED is as bleak as you are saying i dont see why canon wouldnt cut their losses also. that canon bought SED inc means to me, they see a lot of profit and fairly soon simply because thats a lot of debt to absorb without any returns. i'll temper my enthusiasm though...


:D

I think both companies are to blame for this legal mess.

Canon: For being shady about the agreement and the use of the patent, and for joining with Toshiba without paying additional liscence fees.


Nano: For not doing their homework on the agreement, and for being greedy.


As everyone else has said, it seems to me that Nano signed a loosely drawn-up agreement with Canon back then for a small amount of $$$ in order to get some quick up-front cash, not really knowing what the technology would be used for, or the money it could bring. Now Nano sees that the SED TV's are(were) coming to market and a huge profit opportunity to be had. They saw that Canon broke(or bent) the rules of their agreement, partering with Toshiba. So they file a lawsuit in order to get additional liscence fees from Toshiba, or have a new agreement drawn up, this time for a lot more money than the original 6(?) million.


Anyway you look at it, it's all about money for either side.

That being said, I don't think this technology will get off the ground, unless more companies get involved in order to lower the costs of manufacturing the sets. Which I don't think will happen due to Nano's greediness.

Sad to say it, but it looks like OLED's will probably be the sets of the near future, with more manufacturers involved, while SED's will probably only be produced in limited quanities with high costs associated with it.

...Still praying for a 34-42 in. 1080P SED set in the very near future though. :D

It was a stupid play by Nano. They should have looked at bluetooth, what was the settlement after the fact $600 million ? :eek:

- Rich

The new Pioneer sounds interesting, but I'm not optimistic. I've been less than impressed with the plasmas I've seen including the Pioneers. Even if this new Pioneer is an improvement, I'm not paying $10000 for it.

I wouldn't pay $10000 for a SED either. Possibly $5000 for 50+".

I ain't getting a new TV for a very long time methinks. :(

I wonder if I can pick up a SED proto on eBhey. ;)


This great news is featured on the Canon website

http://www.canon.com/press/2007/sed2007jan12.html
Mr. Kazunori Fukuma, the current president of SED Inc. appointed from Toshiba, will resign from Toshiba, after which he will be hired by Canon and continue to serve as SED Inc. president. Also, plans call for Toshiba engineers on loan to SED Inc., in accordance with the terms of a new agreement to be entered into between SED Inc. and Toshiba, to continue their assignments for the transition period during which Canon will independently establish the SED panel business.

Interesting. I wonder what they'll do now that their Nano patent licence is terminated though.

the guy that was assigned to sed on toshiba moves to cannon so that sed proceds as plan so im guessin they are doing a cover up so that nano doesnt do sometin

Can I get some of what Auditor55 is smoking? That must be good stuff!!!!

I already tried, but he won't share...

What exactly is Nano's IP in SED?

Whatever manufacturing efficiencies are ultimately achieved, these patents could keep the prices beyond the mainstream.

Here are the links from Nano's web site with respect to the two ongoing litigation.

http://www.nano-proprietary.com/About/Litigation.asp

so you think thats the main reason toshiba dropped out. if SED is as bleak as you are saying i dont see why canon wouldnt cut their losses also. that canon bought SED inc means to me, they see a lot of profit and fairly soon simply because thats a lot of debt to absorb without any returns. i'll temper my enthusiasm though...


:D

Canon has put the manufacturing plant on hold. That's the real, mass-production plant.

If they saw a "lot of profit" fairly soon, they'd have announced the plant was moving ahead. It isn't right now.

Oh, and if a magic wand we're waved and the litigation went away Monday, no one is profiting from SED for 3-5 year -- not Canon, Toshiba, anyone making them. Such is the nature of the billion-dollar startup I'm afraid.

Toshiba, I assume, dropped out because their attorneys agreed with at least one of Nano's assertions -- that this JV was not a valid entity to use the licensed tech. The fact that the initiative can no longer be considered strategic by Toshiba in that they no longer owen a stake in a next-gen flat-panel tech is incidental.

Sed Is Dead................. Long Live Sed......lol

The new Pioneer sounds interesting, but I'm not optimistic. I've been less than impressed with the plasmas I've seen including the Pioneers. Even if this new Pioneer is an improvement, I'm not paying $10000 for it.

I wouldn't pay $10000 for a SED either. Possibly $5000 for 50+".

I ain't getting a new TV for a very long time methinks. :(

I wonder if I can pick up a SED proto on eBhey. ;)Like I said... if Philips begins hawking 60"+ 1080p PDPs for less than $3500 MSRP... companies like Fujitsu & Pioneer (even Panasonic) won't be able to remain competitive @ their current price levels; and except for the typical AVSF enthusiast with deep pockets... it won't really matter to "Joe average consumer."

When 60"+ FP TVs become a commodity item, there won't be a BIG screen TV revenue pie large enough to entice manufacturers to invest in developing SED/OLED technologies for the home HDTV display market.

Which may be a reason for some companies to get out of PDP and LCD if they don't want to play the commodity game.

Or at least hedge their bets with new tech in case all the value is squeezed out of the current flat panel markets by commoditization.

Which may be a reason for some companies to get out of PDP and LCD if they don't want to play the commodity game.

Or at least hedge their bets with new tech in case all the value is squeezed out of the current flat panel markets by commoditization.

One thing you CAN bet on is that LCD & Plasma displays are going to be w/us for any foreseeable future that I can see. Furthermore, within the next 12-18 months you will see a marked improvement in PQ w/both LCD & Plasma displays that will negate SED's viabilty in this marketplace w/a pricing that will also spell doom for SED. These "SED Killer" Plasma & LCD Displays will provide the PQ Holy Grail that all have been seeking.

you cant be serious to belive that the pioneeer repackaged version compares to sed ???

From what I here there are at CES:

27" OLED with no lifetime problems and 1,000,000:1 contrast
laser/plasma/etc going to be getting to 100,000:1 pretty quickly.

you cant be serious to belive that the pioneeer repackaged version compares to sed ???

I'm not sure what LCD & Plasma has done to you in your lifetime...did one fall off the wall and kill your dog or something? Anyone that pays serious attention to this CE market can easily see it. You seem to have unquestionable faith in a fathom SED product that may or may not be produced (in limited quantity if at all) by a company that has never even mfg'erd a video display. But when it comes to high quality LCD's & Plasma displays produced from well-established CE companies that have a proven record you suddenly go total negative. Don't believe me, but rather just take a few notes from the professionals & folks that just attended CES in Las Vegas.

the ces shows are usualy prototype and are played carefully so therefor no way to really test 'em , lcd has to many flaws to the record and plasma seems ok still not there but ok

Can I get some of what Auditor55 is smoking? That must be good stuff!!!!

Sanity Erasing Delusionol.(SED) Ask your Canon Spin Doctor if it might be right for you.

If economies of scale were everything, then the CRT would never have been displaced. FPs displaced CRTs by offering features people couldn't get with CRT technology. That said, the features in that case were things that joe average understands, like size and weight. My lament is that since joe doesn't seem to care as much about PQ subtleties, we could be stuck with a backward move in several aspects of display technology that I for one do care about, should PDP and LCD succeed in keeping better technologies at bay through sheer, entrenced scale.

Even the latest LCD panels don't produce satisfactory colours or black level performane to my eyes. And large plasmas are power-hungry, have IR issues, and still don't quite measure up to CRT in black level performance. Is it asking too much to want a FP display technology that lacks these drawbacks?

If economies of scale were everything, then the CRT would never have been displaced. FPs displaced CRTs by offering features people couldn't get with CRT technology. That said, the features in that case were things that joe average understands, like size and weight. My lament is that since joe doesn't seem to care as much about PQ subtleties, we could be stuck with a backward move in several aspects of display technology that I for one do care about, should PDP and LCD succeed in keeping better technologies at bay through sheer, entrenced scale.

Even the latest LCD panels don't produce satisfactory colours or black level performane to my eyes. And large plasmas are power-hungry, have IR issues, and still don't quite measure up to CRT in black level performance. Is it asking too much to want a FP display technology that lacks these drawbacks?
X2 i ask the same :(

Which may be a reason for some companies to get out of PDP and LCD if they don't want to play the commodity game.

Or at least hedge their bets with new tech in case all the value is squeezed out of the current flat panel markets by commoditization.I believe when the dust settles, only the biggest fish will survive: e.g. Panasonic, LG, Samsung and perhaps now, Philips.One thing you CAN bet on is that LCD & Plasma displays are going to be w/us for any foreseeable future that I can see. Furthermore, within the next 12-18 months you will see a marked improvement in PQ w/both LCD & Plasma displays that will negate SED's viabilty in this marketplace w/a pricing that will also spell doom for SED. These "SED Killer" Plasma & LCD Displays will provide the PQ Holy Grail that all have been seeking.The vast majority of individuals, who buy a BIG screen LCD/PDP during the next two years, won't be in the market for another FP until 2017 - 2018. Most households are not occupied by the type of people who suffer from the same kind of upgrade-itis affliction as your typical AVSFer. :D If economies of scale were everything, then the CRT would never have been displaced. FPs displaced CRTs by offering features people couldn't get with CRT technology. That said, the features in that case were things that joe average understands, like size and weight. My lament is that since joe doesn't seem to care as much about PQ subtleties, we could be stuck with a backward move in several aspects of display technology that I for one do care about, should PDP and LCD succeed in keeping better technologies at bay through sheer, entrenced scale.

Even the latest LCD panels don't produce satisfactory colours or black level performane to my eyes. And large plasmas are power-hungry, have IR issues, and still don't quite measure up to CRT in black level performance. Is it asking too much to want a FP display technology that lacks these drawbacks?There was a BIG difference in CRTs and PDPs in terms of screen size and the "coolness" form factor of a FP display, which led to the explosion of sales we have witnessed during the past few years.

However, there will be no compelling reason for the masses to spend BIG bucks for OLED/SED technology which provides incremental improvements in picture quality at a price tag most people can't afford. By the time newer display technologies reach the consumer market big screen FP displays and HDTV will be as common place as a cellular phone and the qualitative differences between manufacturers products will be minimal at best.

Optivity, I agree w/most everything you posted, but I would separate OLED from the pack of failed or soon to fail future video tech. From where I sit, OLED offers a much more likely chance of succeeding than SED ever will. Rogo stated the reasons earlier. OLED is already in production, albeit in tiny screens, and they are much cheaper to mfg'er, and OLED can more easily increase/decrease screen sizes during the mfg'ering process. Sony just demoed a 27" OLED at CES w/reviews similar to what we were hearing about SED last year. We're probably talking about 2011 or 2012 before we see these OLED's in our stores in larger size screens.

We're probably talking about 2011 or 2012 before we see these OLED's in our stores in larger size screens.One thing I know… is I'll be in the market for another 1080p display long before then. ;)

One thing I know… is I'll be in the market for another 1080p display long before then. ;)

Oh yeah, definitely! This is future video tech, for sure...but since this SED thread is based on vaporware, might as well throw out the upcoming OLED's into the mix, which has a much higher probability of actually being successful. As for my next HT upgrade, I've got a keen eye on that upcoming all- new Pioneer 60" 1080p plasma display w/the super duper black levels & eye-popping color.:D

the ces shows are usualy prototype and are played carefully so therefor no way to really test 'em , lcd has to many flaws to the record and plasma seems ok still not there but ok

And how does this same limitation not apply to SED, which has never been seen or evaluated outside of events and shows like CES? It's not like Toshiba has actually made an SED set that is NOT a prototype.

And how does this same limitation not apply to SED, which has never been seen or evaluated outside of events and shows like CES? It's not like Toshiba has actually made an SED set that is NOT a prototype.

yes i should of ad sed , now its quite simple and you already have the answer

plasmas and lcd are expected with issues right out everyone knows that , while sed is expected to have no flaws in terms of quality i mean sure burn in *might* but i mean thats where theirs warrantys or (costco) for instence or Better yet most newer pdp have a way to clean out the burn in and are LESS promone then before , sed is surely more masterd then pdp its like sed gets all observations from current / past tech and is in a combo of greatness ...... i hope you can understand that pdp/lcd are expected with flaws while sed has the upper edge to not be expecting any flaws ..... that makes the anwer to your question / comment

Does any of this legal bs between Toshiba, Canon and Nano have anything to do with the falling prices on Toshiba flat panels!? I find it hard to believe that Toshiba would be clearing out all it's current gen merch if it didn't have something new to replace it with. I know I can't post price/places but just look around 50" Toshiba theater wide PDP going for half what they did before xmas. Too many stores to think it's an isolated clearance.

Looks like the SED news finally reached Slashdot (http://hardware.slashdot.org/hardware/07/01/14/0134216.shtml)...

im gald atlest one article writes it right and clearlify everyting , breifly saying that toshiba cannon teamed up then nano sued them and cannon just thought to buy out toshiba so they can continue as planned and hopefully not affect dates ,

im gald atlest one article writes it right and clearlify everyting , breifly saying that toshiba cannon teamed up then nano sued them and cannon just thought to buy out toshiba so they can continue as planned and hopefully not affect dates ,

Gus, could I interest you in some very beautiful pristine farmland located about 50 miles due south of Lake Okeechobee in sunny southern Florida? It's the deal of the century, and the price is right!!!:D

As for my next HT upgrade, I've got a keen eye on that upcoming all- new Pioneer 60" 1080p plasma display w/the super duper black levels & eye-popping color.:DPDPs keep getting better all the time... but I think I'll wait until 2008 to see if the interactive displays that Panasonic & Comcast are developing comes to fruition.

Zeus almighty, my head's going to explode from attempting to decipher the ramblings of a certain someone posting to this thread, and to whom I would like to say, "Thanks for the complementary brain aneurism!".

Sanity Erasing Delusionol.(SED) Ask your Canon Spin Doctor if it might be right for you.


I'm not sure what LCD & Plasma has done to you in your lifetime...did one fall off the wall and kill your dog or something?

These guys bring the funny. (Almost) enough to offset the pain from my involuntary optical nerve spasming. :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

"If economies of scale were everything, then the CRT would never have been displaced. "

Mmm hmm, but it took LCD and PDP more than a decade to build enough economies of scale that they were plausible in the marketplace.

"FPs displaced CRTs by offering features people couldn't get with CRT technology. That said, the features in that case were things that joe average understands, like size and weight."

Compelling, new features that CRT could not offer. No matter what kind of enthusiasm people have for SED, it is at best a marginal improvement over what is in the marketplace today. "Oh no! He said marginal! He's a moron!"

It is marginal, in that only a minority of people will really see it. And fewer will be willing to pay any kind of premium for it. It's really that simple.

And, for what it's worth, without scale economics, there will not be any SED production. It doesn't mean they need LCD-esque scale economies. PDP is produced in less total substrate quantity than LCD and it has outstanding scale economies.

And without the laptop market, followed by the desktop-screen market, there would not have been a large-size TFT-LCD TV market. SED needs to do what PDP did. Except when PDP did it, there was nothing in the world that could offer size and flatness. Never mind perfect geometry and unlimited viewing angle.

Might as well face it, rogo is Capt. Checkmate. I suggest challengers find a new game. :cool:

Canon buys Toshiba TV stake
(http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,21060506%5e15316%5e%5enbv%5e,00.html?from=public_rss)
Aiko Wakao in Tokyo
JANUARY 15, 2007

CANON will buy out Toshiba's stake in their flat-panel display venture to resolve a patent dispute with a US patent holder.

Canon will own the unit that was set up in 2004 to develop a new type of thin panels that can be used in TVs to challenge consumer electronics giants such as Samsung Electronics and Matsushita Electric Industrial Co.
The move is aimed at appeasing Texas-based Nano-Proprietary, which filed a lawsuit claiming that its 1999 agreement to license technology to Canon did not extend to Toshiba. Toshiba has a 50 per cent stake in the joint venture, know as SED Ltd.

[more at the link]

>>Originally Posted by options
AUSTIN, TX -- (MARKET WIRE) -- January 12, 2007 -- Nano-Proprietary, Inc. (OTCBB: NNPP) today announced that it is pleased Canon, Inc. and Toshiba Corporation have decided to continue to move forward with their SED TV.

"Restructuring of Canon's ownership position does not resolve the pending litigation which goes to trial in a few weeks," said Tom Bijou, Chief Executive Officer of Nano-Proprietary, Inc. "We have terminated Canon's license as a result of breach of contract. Moreover, our complaint against Canon includes other counts, including fraud unrelated to the ownership of SED. We are, however, willing to enter into a new license agreement with Canon on reasonable terms." <<

Translate:

We announce that we are corporate whores and we have our price.

Canon who lied about the resolution of 8mm and Toshiba who was banned from selling products in the US for a year, after selling USA secrets to the Soviets, methinks the kettle is much like the pot.

They are getting really close to killing the technology before its even released. While they still can make money off it they need to back off. This could have been available 2 years ago. Now competing technologies are getting really close to its performance and other new alternatives are on the horizon.

Sounds like Nano is litigious.

Not only are they suing Canon, they're suing the German guy who licensed them some patents.

If their licensing is based on a per unit basis and it's so onerous that SED products must be priced uncompetitively, that will limit their revenue potential by relegating the product to a niche.

PDPs keep getting better all the time... but I think I'll wait until 2008 to see if the interactive displays that Panasonic & Comcast are developing comes to fruition.

PDP's are only getting better in your mind. PDP companies keep adding more pixels to fool the unlearned and naive into believing they getting better. Once again, plasma technology has reached its peak, they won't get significantly better than what we have now and that is why its time to move on to new technology.

One thing you CAN bet on is that LCD & Plasma displays are going to be w/us for any foreseeable future that I can see

I guess you think that's good thing :rolleyes: Progress be damned!!

Optivity, I agree w/most everything you posted, but I would separate OLED from the pack of failed or soon to fail future video tech. From where I sit, OLED offers a much more likely chance of succeeding than SED ever will. Rogo stated the reasons earlier. OLED is already in production, albeit in tiny screens, and they are much cheaper to mfg'er, and OLED can more easily increase/decrease screen sizes during the mfg'ering process. Sony just demoed a 27" OLED at CES w/reviews similar to what we were hearing about SED last year. We're probably talking about 2011 or 2012 before we see these OLED's in our stores in larger size screens.

If OLED succedes that would be great because PDP and LCD are unacceptable as future display technologies.

PDP's are only getting better in your mind. PDP companies keep adding more pixels to fool the unlearned and naive into believing they getting better. Once again, plasma technology has reached its peak, they won't get significantly better than what we have now and that is why its time to move on to new technology.

You are correct. You see the eyes are connected to the mind. So when you see improvements it is really the mind that is involved ;)

- Rich

He's back. Looks like someone just received a prescription refill.

Sanity Erasing Delusionol.(SED)

Ask your Canon Spin Doctor if it is right for you.

He's back. Looks like someone just received a prescription refill.

Sanity Erasing Delusionol.(SED)

Ask your Canon Spin Doctor if it is right for you.

Shouldn't you be some where trying to save your pennies for one them new fangled, re-cooked, repackaged, technically regurgiated Pioneer $$$ plasma displays, why are you in the SED thread. :rolleyes:

http://gear.ign.com/articles/755/755742p1.html
Even more troubling for the future of SED is the fact that LED-backlit LCDs and new Plasma technology displayed recently at CES 2007 have dramatically narrowed the performance gap between SED and other displays. SED's previously mindblowing 100,000:1 contrast ratio has been duplicated, and possibly surpassed, by displays that will roll out in volume as early as Q2 2007.

PDP's are only getting better in your mind. PDP companies keep adding more pixels to fool the unlearned and naive into believing they getting better. Once again, plasma technology has reached its peak, they won't get significantly better than what we have now and that is why its time to move on to new technology.

You've been saying "Plasma technology has reached its peak" for over two years now, and since that time and several generations later we've seen marked improvement in every area of PQ. Now on the short horizon, Plasma video tech will be releasing its SED Killer displays w/contrast levels & color that surpass CRT & SED. Looks like you need to exit from the dreamworld prediction biz and jump on the real PQ Wagon.

http://gear.ign.com/articles/755/755742p1.html


yeah whatever!! :rolleyes:

You've been saying "Plasma technology has reached its peak" for over two years now, and since that time and several generations later we've seen marked improvement in every area of PQ. Now on the short horizon, Plasma video tech will be releasing its SED Killer displays w/contrast levels & color that surpass CRT & SED. Looks like you need to exit from the dreamworld prediction biz and jump on the real PQ Wagon.

I doubt very seriously if plasma will even come close to SED's formidable nanotechnology. Again, plasma has already reached its peak, its not the future and one day you will realise this.

Again I quote the AVS display technology veteran Rogo's opinion of the repackaged recooked plasma technology from Pioneer.


"Now the Pioneer wasn't at all terrible in shadow detail, but it just didn't seem to offer truly mind-boggling contrast in the absolute. It absolutely blows away what Pioneer offers today, I'm just not sure where it stands vs. every other display that will ship in 2007. "

However, from ALL accounts, again note the word ALL, SED does offer mind-boggling constrast in the absolute.

Again, plasma has already reached its peak, its not the future and one day you will realise this.

Again I quote the AVS display technology veteran Rogo's opinion of the repackaged recooked plasma technology from Pioneer.


"Now the Pioneer wasn't at all terrible in shadow detail, but it just didn't seem to offer truly mind-boggling contrast in the absolute. It absolutely blows away what Pioneer offers today, I'm just not sure where it stands vs. every other display that will ship in 2007. "


Don't you notice that you just contradicted yourself within a couple sentences of each other? To quote you and your quote of Rogo:

"plasma has already reached its peak"
"It absolutely blows away what Pioneer offers today"

Both statements above cannot be true. If it has reached its peak it cannot be getting better, and yet you quote Rogo as saying that the new generation that is in the future blows away the present generation. That means that it has not reached its peak.

I'm a bit confused by this thread. How many of the posters have seen SED technology in person? I have a Sony XBR CRT because (to my eye) it has the best picture quality at the time of my purchase. I am beginning to research for a small tv for the bedroom and I remembered that a year ago that I read that SED was a technology with really good potential. So I come to this thread to see what the current state of SED is and I stumbled into this hailstorm of **** flinging. I guess I'll go hide now, while ya'll continue to fight over this, as of yet, (almost) unwitnessed technology.

I read that SED was a technology with really good potential. So I come to this thread to see what the current state of SED is and I stumbled into this hailstorm of **** flinging. I guess I'll go hide now, while ya'll continue to fight over this, as of yet, (almost) unwitnessed technology.

SED is dead technology, this is virtual discussion about virtual displays whose prototypes can not be even shown due to patent disputes.
Forget about SED and buy good LCD.

Forget about SED and buy good LCD.

I would, but there ain't no such thing.

If SED is a new attempt at FED, then death and failure is forthcoming.

DB

I would, but there ain't no such thing.


ooh..marketers have been using the "wow factor" of high definition and high color saturation to smother any legitamate flaws in flat panels - they have suceeded. people are catching on i think.

:D

weremichael: The plant to mass produce SEDs has been cancelled. If it is produced at all, it will be low rate, for expensive commercial placement. The patent dispute alone will likely kill it. Merely delaying the technology for court action is sufficient to kill it off. Other technologies progress, and get cheaper. The number of people willing to pay thousands for a display when "similar" units go for a thousand or even less, is small. Still smaller is the number of people who are willing to pay that super premium AND have a spouse willing to go along.

"Good" is literally in the eye of the beholder. "Good enough" applies to what's for sale today, judging by sales and reports that one third of US households have an HDTV. PQ is only one factor. Price is another.

SED is dead, at least as far as you or I seeing one for sale to the general public. Canon was too slow to fully develop it, and may have had bad legal advice. Nano has overplayed their hand. I suspect NONE will ever be sold. Emotional desires for it to be otherwise will not change this. By all knowledgeable, objective reports, there will be NO SED mass production. There simply are no plans to build the necessary facility, at a billion plus dollars. Sure, that can be revisited- years down the road, far too late.

Remember, other technologies approach rapidly, and have great potential and probably cheaper costs. OLED is, by some reports, better even from a PQ standpoint- and they're not the only technology on the way.

OLED is going to nail the coffin shut for SED. I believe it will become the dominate display in a few years and leave LCD and plasma in the dust. It has all the advantages. Sony is getting very close to intoducing OLED televisions. :)

I'm a bit confused by this thread. How many of the posters have seen SED technology in person? I have a Sony XBR CRT because (to my eye) it has the best picture quality at the time of my purchase. I am beginning to research for a small tv for the bedroom and I remembered that a year ago that I read that SED was a technology with really good potential. So I come to this thread to see what the current state of SED is and I stumbled into this hailstorm of **** flinging. I guess I'll go hide now, while ya'll continue to fight over this, as of yet, (almost) unwitnessed technology.

Well I haven't "witnessed" it, but I have seen current LCD and plasma technology and neither looks as good as your XBR CRT to my eyes. So, here we are, waiting for Godot.

Not quite yet, but Godot will someday finally show up on your TV, for triple the price.

[QUOTE=OreoJoe]Not quite yet, but Godot will someday finally show up on your TV, for triple the price.[/QU
As technology matures, the improved spec will become meaningless. Many years ago,manufacturers of amplifliers bragged about their low Total Harmonic Distortion (THD). People will paid more to get one w/ lower numbers. But when it drops to 0.001% no one will pay more to get one that is 0.0001% as the differences cannot be discerned by the human ears. The same will happen to visual display panels. Can you see an improvement of 5% in black levels, or the differences between 10,000 to 1 vs 50,000 to 1 contrast ratio? Will you pay double or tiple for those improvements? ;)

Can I tell the difference between 10,000:1 and 50,000:1? I have no idea. But I CAN tell the difference between the blacks on my CRT, and an LCD panel.

The contrast numbers are created in a darkroom. As soon as you bring it into the light, the real contrast ratios come into play. Plasmas in the darkroom have fantastic numbers. In the light, not so good. LCDs in the dark have OK numbers but in the light, they remain adequate. A real contrast ratio is White + reflection / Black + reflection. What most people forget to do is to add REFLECTION into the numbers.

DB

OLED is going to nail the coffin shut for SED. I believe it will become the dominate display in a few years and leave LCD and plasma in the dust. It has all the advantages. Sony is getting very close to intoducing OLED televisions. :)

Careful there. People have been saying the same thing about SED for the last three years or so.

OLED is going to nail the coffin shut for SED. I believe it will become the dominate display in a few years and leave LCD and plasma in the dust. It has all the advantages. Sony is getting very close to intoducing OLED televisions. :)
Why were they showing Kodak products at CES? Why nothing larger than 27"?
What is the life of the set?

Careful there. People have been saying the same thing about SED for the last three years or so.

The important difference between OLED and SED is that OLED is currently in production albeit for small displays. I would venture to say that it will be much easier to scale up the size of displays for OLED than to try and bring a technology such as SED to market from scratch.

http://www.behardware.com/html/news/#8559

Careful there. People have been saying the same thing about SED for the last three years or so.

Sony has announced that they will build a plant for OLED production and Harold Stringer,Sony's chairman announced that an OLED set would be available in 2008.

Addionally,OLED is in production now for handheld devices. If OLED gets off the ground first,SED may never launch. :)

Why were they showing Kodak products at CES? Why nothing larger than 27"?
What is the life of the set?

I have read elsewhere,that they have achieved 60000 hours on all three colors which was the holdup.

That is huge news.:D How many years until prototype in a large form factor?

Sony has announced that they will build a plant for OLED production and Harold Stringer,Sony's chairman announced that an OLED set would be available in 2008.

Addionally,OLED is in production now for handheld devices. If OLED gets off the ground first,SED may never launch. :)
Just read this thread. Maybe we'll hear more at the Sony line show end of next month.

well all in all i hope oled makes it atlest lol cuz i want a better tv then the current pos of lcd/pdp's as i know so far my crt tube is making it ^_^

http://www.digitimes.com/displays/a20070126VL200.html

Excellent article. Thank you for posting it. And posting it so succinctly.

PDP's are only getting better in your mind. PDP companies keep adding more pixels to fool the unlearned and naive into believing they getting better. Once again, plasma technology has reached its peak, they won't get significantly better than what we have now and that is why its time to move on to new technology.

Auditor,

Currently I have an XBR 36 with marvelous PQ but it is small. I am now looking for a new 60inch hdtv. and would love to see a new technology. My kids are gone and I am willing to spend a few thousand for that new televsiion. I have been in the mood to wait for the new Pioneers but I can be persuaded if the technology and price is right.

So i need FACTS. I see some of you are SED fans, or at least a new technology fans --- and I would realllllly love a new techology tv set.

Please, Please give me facts (or at least a sound speculation -- and labeled that way) on WHEN will a new technology be available and what will it COST for a 60 inch set and how much BETTER will it be.

It is a great deal of fun to talk and banter, etc on this forum -- i love it. But now I have real money I am ready to spend on a real tv -- not a virtual one.

When a person is going to put real money down, you need facts. What goes on here a lot is "where the rubber meets the sky". I need "where the rubber meets the road" suggestions.

I am sure there are a lot of you in the same position, so all the help I can get from you all I will truly appreciate.

thanks

http://www.digitimes.com/displays/a20070126VL200.html

Between the lines look for a settlement and license agreement, before court date.:D

viper43. To answer your questions: NOBODY knows anything about size, price, and how much better it will truly be, and/or when it will be released. Canaon has stated that they are going to focus on the professional market and not the consumer market right know. Your best bet will be the new Pio which is going to arrive this summer. SED is still viperware as of today.

viper43. To answer your questions: NOBODY knows anything about size, price, and how much better it will truly be, and/or when it will be released. Canaon has stated that they are going to focus on the professional market and not the consumer market right know. Your best bet will be the new Pio which is going to arrive this summer. SED is still viperware as of today.

I think you meant "vaporware" rather than "viperware", but you're right and SED's future is up in the air at this time. Another future video tech that may have an even better chance at succeeding is OLED, which Sony displayed recently at CES in Las Vegas. But again, we're talking "years" not "months" in their development to HT size screens.

Just over the horizon and not too many months down the road is an all-newly developed 60+" Pioneer Plasma display that will produce blacks, color, and contrasts that surpasses even CRT. This would be the one display well worth waiting, and this is NO vaporware BS. One thing though, this Pioneer ain't going to be cheap...at least in the initial release.

The contrast numbers are created in a darkroom. As soon as you bring it into the light, the real contrast ratios come into play. Plasmas in the darkroom have fantastic numbers. In the light, not so good. LCDs in the dark have OK numbers but in the light, they remain adequate. A real contrast ratio is White + reflection / Black + reflection. What most people forget to do is to add REFLECTION into the numbers.
DB
Some rooms have (almost) no reflections. Some people don't sabotage their contrast by sitting in white rooms with ambient light. There is nothing less real about contrast in a black room than in a white room. Naturally device contrast are measured in a black room as there is no standard for a reflective room and people can use any room they want anyway.

What if the walls were in a black and white checkerboard pattern and were glossy and you were burning a bunch of black lights? Isn't that as REAL as it gets?

SED is still on life support.


Also Monday, Canon reaffirmed its commitment to go ahead with a new technology in flat TVs called SED and carry out the business on its own, and ditch the partnership with Japanese electronics company Toshiba Corp.

Canon said it will complete the purchase of Toshiba's portion of that partnership by Monday, and will carry out "the earliest possible launch" of a commercial SED panel business.

Between the lines look for a settlement and license agreement, before court date.:D


That is just fantastic news!! You can't stop a good and a great thing.

viper43. To answer your questions: NOBODY knows anything about size, price, and how much better it will truly be, and/or when it will be released. Canaon has stated that they are going to focus on the professional market and not the consumer market right know. Your best bet will be the new Pio which is going to arrive this summer. SED is still viperware as of today.

You can pay 20k for an inferior usurping technology like the Pio panel, which will quickly be blown away by new technologies like SED and OLED.

You can pay 20k for an inferior usurping technology like the Pio panel, which will quickly be blown away by new technologies like SED and OLED.

For sure, you can expect to pay primo dinero for being an "early adopter" of the upcoming Pioneer 60" SED Killer Plasma Display, but no one has put a price on it yet. If you follow past plasma tech you know that this primo price will drop rapidly. As for OLED, we're talking several years more of development before we can possibly expect to see HT screen sizes. The SED saga continues, and according to Canon's own press releases, their displays will not be for consumers and will be very low in production numbers as the brakes have put on any new factories. For some, I guess you can say "the dream lives on".:D

And at least until the court case is settled, whatever SED displays are produced, if any, will remain in Japan due to the licensing restrictions.

You can pay 20k for an inferior usurping technology like the Pio panel, which will quickly be blown away by new technologies like SED and OLED.

Auditor, what do you mean by quickly.

How soon is "quickly" going to happen?

As I said above, I need facts .... or at the very least, sound guesses.

Only 1,000 units per month until at least 2010.

Canon Eyeing Launch of Integrated SED TV Production in 2010 (http://www.redorbit.com/news/technology/818885/canon_eyeing_launch_of_integrated_sed_tv_production_in_2010/index.html?source=r_technology)

Only 1,000 units per month until at least 2010.

Canon Eyeing Launch of Integrated SED TV Production in 2010 (http://www.redorbit.com/news/technology/818885/canon_eyeing_launch_of_integrated_sed_tv_production_in_2010/index.html?source=r_technology)

Great link, thanks. Heck, a 1000 units shared between Canon & Toshiba won't even supply a neighborhood in Tokyo, much less outside of Japan.
mass production at the earliest in 2010...expect another delay. Just imagine what successive improved generation Plasma & LCD video tech will be out there by this time, and that's not to mention OLED coming on strong. The "dream" is fading fast...

Only 1,000 units per month until at least 2010.

Canon Eyeing Launch of Integrated SED TV Production in 2010 (http://www.redorbit.com/news/technology/818885/canon_eyeing_launch_of_integrated_sed_tv_production_in_2010/index.html?source=r_technology)


In case you're interested, that 10 billion yen that Canon purchased Toshiba's equity stake for is about 82 million dollars.

In case you're interested, that 10 billion yen that Canon purchased Toshiba's equity stake for is about 82 million dollars.

I would not be too surprised to learn that a fair amount of the price paid, was a settlement to keep Toshiba from suing Canon for Business Malpractice, by misrepresenting how they had a right to let Toshiba participate in the use of the patent in question. Canon walked Toshiba into a mess and a PR debacle, so Toshiba surely must have demanded a pound of flesh.

Will people post into this thread every day until 2010 about SED?

Will people post into this thread every day until 2010 about SED?

Artwood, you have a good sense of humor --- I needed that.

2010? If that article is true, the dreams of this product reaching the market as a mainstream-ish item are forever dashed.

Oh, and Sony has not announced any plans to make a 27-inch OLED next year. Sir Howard said they could do so, not that they will.

I'm going to drive this car (http://www.autoblog.com/2007/01/31/commence-holding-breath-x-hawk-flying-car-could-be-here-by-2010/) to my local B&M when I buy my SED.
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/01/31/commence-holding-breath-x-hawk-flying-car-could-be-here-by-2010/

Will people post into this thread every day until 2010 about SED?

One fellow is dedicated to do so for life, until death doth part him from SED.

Sanity Erasing Delusionol.(SED)

Ask your Canon Spin Doctor if is right for you.

I'm going to drive this car (http://www.autoblog.com/2007/01/31/commence-holding-breath-x-hawk-flying-car-could-be-here-by-2010/) to my local B&M when I buy my SED.
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/01/31/commence-holding-breath-x-hawk-flying-car-could-be-here-by-2010/

Yeah, well you'd better bring extra fuel tanks to dive that baby to the end of the rainbow for that SED pot of gold!:D

Auditor,

Currently I have an XBR 36 with marvelous PQ but it is small. I am now looking for a new 60inch hdtv. and would love to see a new technology. My kids are gone and I am willing to spend a few thousand for that new televsiion. I have been in the mood to wait for the new Pioneers but I can be persuaded if the technology and price is right.

So i need FACTS. I see some of you are SED fans, or at least a new technology fans --- and I would realllllly love a new techology tv set.

Please, Please give me facts (or at least a sound speculation -- and labeled that way) on WHEN will a new technology be available and what will it COST for a 60 inch set and how much BETTER will it be.

It is a great deal of fun to talk and banter, etc on this forum -- i love it. But now I have real money I am ready to spend on a real tv -- not a virtual one.
When a person is going to put real money down, you need facts. What goes on here a lot is "where the rubber meets the sky". I need "where the rubber meets the road" suggestions.

I am sure there are a lot of you in the same position, so all the help I can get from you all I will truly appreciate.

thanks

Buy something now that is within your budget. OLED and SED TVs will not be available in large sizes at a competitive price for some time (years). This new super pioneer 60"+ plasma technology is going to cost an arm and a leg. The 60" 720p pioneer PDP-6070HD still carries an msrp of $6500, while the 50" 1080p Elite plasma monitor rings in at an affordable $8000. Of course these are available for thousands less online, but still.. very expensive.

Buy something now that is within your budget. OLED and SED TVs will not be available in large sizes at a competitive price for some time (years). This new super pioneer 60"+ plasma technology is going to cost an arm and a leg. The 60" 720p pioneer PDP-6070HD still carries an msrp of $6500, while the 50" 1080p Elite plasma monitor rings in at an affordable $8000. Of course these are available for thousands less online, but still.. very expensive.

I think you're looking at about 20k grand or more for that new Pio. What a joke, I couldn't imagine spending that much for an outdated, inferior technology.

I can't wait until Pioneer annouces a suggested retail price and when that time comes I'm going to say " I told you so".

I think you're looking at about 20k grand or more for that new Pio. What a joke, I couldn't imagine spending that much for an outdated, inferior technology.

I can't wait until Pioneer annouces a suggested retail price and when that time comes I'm going to say " I told you so".

Could you elaborate just how an all-newly designed cutting edge 60" SED KILLER 1080p Plasma TV is outdated?? BTW, 20k price tag is another pure fabrication. Since you enjoy making up this stuff as you go along, why stop there, spin away...

Yeah $20k's likely a bit over the top but I think it's safe to say that we won't see it at Wally-world for $3k any time soon either ;)

Could you elaborate just how an all-newly designed cutting edge 60" SED KILLER 1080p Plasma TV is outdated?? BTW, 20k price tag is another pure fabrication. Since you enjoy making up this stuff as you go along, why stop there, spin away...

Once again, SED is superior to Plasma in everyway.

Better blacks (Rogo testified that he saw the new Pioneer and it did appear to have outstanding contrast) so don't try to claim something contrary to that, we have that on record here.

No fill factor issues

Superior response time.

No dithering

No color banding

Brighter and sharper.

Energy efficient

More flexible, SED technology could be used in displays as small cell phones and as large as football stadium screens. Can inferior PDP claim the same.

While PDP is nice for as a current technology, it is not the future of display technology, we need something better.

Yeah $20k's likely a bit over the top but I think it's safe to say that we won't see it at Wally-world for $3k any time soon either ;)

This will be a Pioneer Elite, which is their best top-tier display, so yeah expect to pay a premium for the very best to be an "early adopter".

Once again, SED is superior to Plasma in everyway.

Better blacks (Rogo testified that he saw the new Pioneer and it did appear to have outstanding contrast) so don't try to claim something contrary to that, we have that on record here.

No fill factor issues

Superior response time.

No dithering

No color banding

Brighter and sharper.

Energy efficient

More flexible, SED technology could be used in displays as small cell phones and as large as football stadium screens. Can inferior PDP claim the same.

While PDP is nice for as a current technology, it is not the future of display technology, we need something better.

Everything you mentioned w/the exception of better black levels have been debunked on this thread numerous times by numerous people. Just repeating your SED parrot speech don't make it so.

I seemed to have remembered people were mentioning how SED flickered? That to me would indicate SED has response time issues? I haven't heard one person comment after seeing the "SED Killer", that it flickered.

I seemed to have remembered people were mentioning how SED flickered? That to me would indicate SED has response time issues? I haven't heard one person comment after seeing the "SED Killer", that it flickered.

Only established historical data on SED response time. Some have turn on in 2004 and are projecting a response in 2010.

I seemed to have remembered people were mentioning how SED flickered? That to me would indicate SED has response time issues? I haven't heard one person comment after seeing the "SED Killer", that it flickered.
What does flickering have to do with response time? Nothing.

What does flickering have to do with response time? Nothing.

The flickering or "red bar" people seen in the SED pics is caused by a low refresh rate...probably 60Hz or lower, in addition to incorrect camera settings. CRT's have this same problem. I doubt you would even notice it if you were looking at it in person though.

I just asked my wife if she would rather have a "SED" with a very quick response time but a premature glow time, or a "plasma" with a slightly slower to respond time but with a long glow duration and a precharge in the middle. Which do you think she wanted?

Greenland:

Haw!

I just asked my wife if she would rather have a "SED" with a very quick response time but a premature glow time, or a "plasma" with a slightly slower to respond time but with a long glow duration and a precharge in the middle. Which do you think she wanted?
I think she looked at you with big eyes and didn't understand a word you were saying... :D

I just asked my wife if she would rather have a "SED" with a very quick response time but a premature glow time, or a "plasma" with a slightly slower to respond time but with a long glow duration and a precharge in the middle. Which do you think she wanted?


LOL!

Only established historical data on SED response time. Some have turn on in 2004 and are projecting a response in 2010.


;) :p :p

Nano Proprietary gets edge in carbon nanotube TV lawsuit (http://www.digitimes.com/displays/a20070205VL203.html)
5 February 2007

Nano Proprietary Inc. (NPI), a holder of IP patents related to developing carbon nanotube TVs (CNTV), had a major court decision go in it favor in an ongoing lawsuit with one of its partners.

The lawsuit involves the Keesman Patent, which pertains to electron emissions from carbon nanotubes for use in CNTVs. In March 2006, the eponymous Keesman sought to terminate an exclusive license that he had granted to NPI in 2000 to sublicense the patents to third parties.

NPI, in turn, filed suit in May 2006 to prevent Keesman from terminating the license agreement. Although the case has not been decided, the court recently granted a preliminary injunction to NPI, meaning that the license cannot be terminated until the case is resolved. The court stated that NPI was reasonably likely to succeed on the merits of its complaint as a reason for granting the preliminary injunction.

Last year, NPI licensed its CNTV technology to a Taiwanese firm, and an announcement concerning plans for developing carbon nanotube TVs is expected soon.

NPI is also involved in a lawsuit with Canon concerning the development of SED (surface-conduction electron-emitter display) TVs.

NPI's lawyers must LOVE them...lol

2010? If that article is true, the dreams of this product reaching the market as a mainstream-ish item are forever dashed.

Oh, and Sony has not announced any plans to make a 27-inch OLED next year. Sir Howard said they could do so, not that they will.

Never said they would produce a 27 inch oled,only that Stringer announced an oled set would be available in 2008.

Last report I read stated Sony was getting ready to break ground for a new oled plant in 2007,so what does that tell you,oled is on the horizon. :)

Everything you mentioned w/the exception of better black levels have been debunked on this thread numerous times by numerous people. Just repeating your SED parrot speech don't make it so.

Debunked by who, surely not by anyone that's credible, say someone of the stature of Dr. Raymond Soneira, who I quoted several times, where he all but said that SED technology is dramatically superior to PDP. In fact, in his scientific test of various display technologies, PDP was behind Lcos and CRT.

Again

"Potentially the most interesting is the Canon-Toshiba Surface-conduction Electron-emitter Display, SED, which is a very thin (under 1 centimeter) CRT-like phosphor-based display technology. It has digitally addressed pixels, however, the brightness of each pixel is produced through an analog process, so it should be free of the digital artifacts present in plasma and DLP displays, which have digital on-off intensity controls produced with pulse width modulation (see Part III). In this regard SED is very similar to LCoS. As an emissive technology, SED already produces CRT-like black levels, with contrast ratios in the 10,000 to 100,000 range (much better than plasma because it doesn't need to maintain a background level for priming the discharge). The response time is speced at 1ms," which is very fast. "

Dr Raymond Soneira.

I don't know why you want to argue with experts, its foolish for you to do so. You need to face the the fact that PDP has already peaked and that is why you see video display manufacturers investing $$$ into R&D of new display techologies like SED, like OLED. The only company that's trying to push plasma beyond its time is Pioneer because Pioneer have no other irons in the fire. Its Plasma or bust for Pioneer.

Again, Plasma, for all the many reasons I have pointed out, is not the future of display technology. PDP is still not considered reference and when Canon release those professional SED models to the creative community, they are not going want to have an inferior display technology.

What? Plasma has peaked?
Somebody tell Pioneer to stop production of the super plasma quick! :eek:

Debunked by who, surely not by anyone that's credible, say someone of the stature of Dr. Raymond Soneira, who I quoted several times, where he all but said that SED technology is dramatically superior to PDP. In fact, in his scientific test of various display technologies, PDP was behind Lcos and CRT.

You trot out this quote as if it is actually proof of something. Let's take a closer look at the quote:

"Potentially the most interesting is the Canon-Toshiba Surface-conduction Electron-emitter Display, SED, which is a very thin (under 1 centimeter) CRT-like phosphor-based display technology. It has digitally addressed pixels, however, the brightness of each pixel is produced through an analog process, so it should be free of the digital artifacts present in plasma and DLP displays, which have digital on-off intensity controls produced with pulse width modulation (see Part III). In this regard SED is very similar to LCoS. As an emissive technology, SED already produces CRT-like black levels, with contrast ratios in the 10,000 to 100,000 range (much better than plasma because it doesn't need to maintain a background level for priming the discharge). The response time is speced at 1ms, which is very fast. "

Dr Raymond Soneira.

Enough qualifications for you? Hardly a definitive statement about the superiority of SED. If fact, has he actually tested or examined a SED device? Check out this quote from Dr. Soneira:

Canon has so far been very skittish about allowing us to test any of their SED prototypes.

Well that is interesting. So it turns out he has never actually examined one in detail (nor has anyone apparently). It also appears that all he is doing is basing his analysis on the POTENTIAL of the technology based on specs from Canon, not the actual implementation of it or real world usage.

I don't know why you want to argue with experts, its foolish for you to do so. You need to face the the fact that PDP has already peaked and that is why you see video display manufacturers investing $$$ into R&D of new display techologies like SED, like OLED. The only company that's trying to push plasma beyond its time is Pioneer because Pioneer have no other irons in the fire. Its Plasma or bust for Pioneer.

So please support your claim that plasma has already "peaked". How exactly do you know that no other improvements will be made? Are you in the labs in Japan? Do you have any sort of degree or expertise in plasma R&D? Or is it just a wild-ass claim you can't support? BTW, here is a quote from Dr. Soneira:

Plasmas are a type of digital CRT so it's not surprising that they have the look and feel of a CRT. Performance has been steadily improving with size and brightness going up and black-levels and artifacts going down

I don't know why you want to argue with the experts, its foolish for you to do so.

Your claim that only Pioneer is investing in plasma is completely unsupported. Matsushita, for one, is pouring a ton of money into R&D and new factories. But, I guess it would be too much to expect you to actually support your claims.

BTW, you forgot to mention that a 50" 1080p Pioneer plasma costs "$20k".

Bruce

SED isn't dead until the suit is settled, one way or another, and it probably will not be settled in court. In disputes like this, bargaining goes on until it's close to midnight. By this I mean that most IP suits are settled close to the trial date.

Wait and see.

The point is, time is running out. Even IF they can mass produce SEDs (which currently has been cancelled) at some vaguely reasonable cost, it's probably too late. Canon admits that at best, they will enter the market near the top of the price range. The market they enter at such a late date will have (relatively) cheap LCDs and Plasmas. They will not be able to gain enough market share to increase production to gain economies of scale. The other technologies are too far ahead- they have too big of a head start. And the longer it takes to reach a settlement, the less likely it will ever see mass production. Or maybe "any" production. And we don't even know they are negotiating to actually produce anything. They could just reach a settlement, in or out of court, to resolve patent disputes to date. And then fold their tents.

Plus, other technologies are entering the market, with lower production costs right off the bat, and perhaps BETTER PQ. OLED shows such promise.

And it doesn't matter if SED really does have "better" PQ and a "long enough" lifespan. It won't impress J6P (or his wife) who sees the price tag and perceives little difference. Most people just aren't that picky, and the market for super premium sets is very tiny. How many people here own $20,000 or even $10,000 sets? And we're enthusiasts!

Even if SED doesn't come to market, I still think it is a good thing for consumers that it was developed. It shows LCD/plasma/RPTV makers that better technology is just around the corner, which increases competition and creates better products.

i hope this is true - SED is to launch in the U.S. and Japan simultaneously late 2007. this refers to "test units".

***Canon : yes, we will launch SED !*** (http://www.behardware.com/news/8587/canon-yes-we-will-launch-sed.html)

i hope this is true - SED is to launch in the U.S. and Japan simultaneously late 2007. this refers to "test units".

***Canon : yes, we will launch SED !*** (http://www.behardware.com/news/8587/canon-yes-we-will-launch-sed.html)

Once again, that is just fantastic news!! No matter what they do they can't kill SED. Cream surely does rise to the top. As I keep telling some folks who continue to argue with me, you can't supress a superior technology, the cat is already out the bag, a vastly superior display technology has been seen, you can't just make it go away be wishing it so.

***Canon : yes, we will launch SED !***

"...I did not have sex with that woman, Miss Lewinsky...."

***Canon : yes, we will launch SED !***

"...I did not have sex with that woman, Miss Lewinsky...." "But I did" Bill Clinton

Sounds great, because Canon has met all it's previous promises. ;)

Sanity Erasing Delusionol(SED)

Ask your Canon Spin Doctor if SED is right for you.

BS is BS.

Court case is not even settled. Economics, by their own admission, is against them. Now they add "in the U.S." as well as Japan. That would seem to undercut their own side of the dispute with Nano, so maybe they've all but signed an agreement.

I hope I eat my words, but this thing keeps rising from the dead like New Orleans coffins after a hurricane. And the truly amazing thing is, they have people calling it "vastly superior" when NO ONE KNOWS THIS. There have been NO independent tests, NO displays out "in the wild" for average people to see under various conditions. The only stats are from the people planning to sell them. No one else has measured a thing. Longevity/emitter erosion is unknown. Manufacturability is unknown. There are many unknowns- but faith in some is strong, based on claims and promises, and a few glimpses under highly controlled circumstances.

Show me the money FIRST. I still doubt it will ever be mass produced. They may be hoping to corner the commercial market for reference sets at any cost, used in video production. Assuming, of course, they ever manufacture any significant numbers of them.

I hope I eat my words

You will.

Remember, you can't keep the cream from rising to the top. SED technology has been demonstrated and has shown to be superior to PDP in everyway.

Again, SED is not a technonlogy for right now, SED is the display technology of the future.

I heard that the cream was black and is called the 'Super Plasma'. :D

" You can't keep the cream from rising to the top"


Sheer nonsense.

Homogenization has kept the cream from rising to the top since 1932.

lmao

Since it does not appear that SED is really going to be produced for the masses (if I remember Canon's comments correctly), what new technologies are on the horizon that show promise?

You will.

Remember, you can't keep the cream from rising to the top. SED technology has been demonstrated and has shown to be superior to PDP in everyway.

Again, SED is not a technonlogy for right now, SED is the display technology of the future.

Haha, that last part of the quote. It's like you can keep saying it over and over and over again.

"SED isn't for right now!! It's for me to drool over while I wait! Please Canon! Keep me waiting! I don't want the dream to stop!"

For the future... hehe, when is the 'future' now for SED?

Since it does not appear that SED is really going to be produced for the masses (if I remember Canon's comments correctly), what new technologies are on the horizon that show promise?

Here ya go...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=782695

This technology will actually deliver on it's promises this year. Unlike SED which has been "only a year or two away" for the better part of a decade. :rolleyes:

The idea of an SED display is exciting but it will probably be at the very least a year or two before we see anything for the US market (and even then it will probaby only be available in the professional and commercial markets). Plasma is acceptable right now, just barely, I am glad that Pioneer was able to reduce their black level's by 80% though considering how far away the black level is from CRT on my 9th gen Panasonic, 80% reduction might still not be good enough to abandon support for SED.

Since it does not appear that SED is really going to be produced for the masses (if I remember Canon's comments correctly), what new technologies are on the horizon that show promise?

OLED. Actually, it's not on the horizon. It's on your cell phone and PDA. These displays have been made for years for small sizes. This display promises to be excellent and cheap. It has great viewing angles and black levels and uses very little power. I believe Kodak has promised production in 2008.

See this Wiki link on SED, (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surface-conduction_electron-emitter_display) this one on OLED (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OLED) and this one on the basically dead FED. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_emission_display) .

HDTVexpert
The Perils of SED (http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/sed.html)

Well, over a year ago when I first heard about SED I was all excited. Quite frankly I think it's dead. The possibilities seem great but there seems to be too many hurdles for this technology to get off the ground. Reading the last link, greed seems a big part of this and they haven't shipped one unit yet.
Add to that, Plasma and LCD technologies aren't standing still.
Too bad for SED but I suppose the best doesn't always win.

HDTVexpert
The Perils of SED (http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/sed.html) From the article..

On the face of it, things don’t look good for Canon and the SED right now. Canon now finds itself in a business (flat panel manufacturing) where it doesn’t have prior experience, and will be competing against the one-two punch of plasma and LCD, both of which are mature, mass-marketed HDTV products with aggressive channel pricing and distribution.

For Canon to compete on that playing field, tens of thousands of SED HDTVs would have to be cranked out each month. SRPs (right now) could be no higher than $4,000, based on competing 1080p 52-inch and 57-inch plasma and LCD products.

Canon must also be prepared to see retail prices drop 20 to 25 percent a year, and will have to compete with the illogical wheeling-and-dealing that is characteristic of Chinese and Korean FDP manufacturers — something that is giving Pioneer executives major cases of indigestion.

The SED yield problems could be a major obstacle to getting any volume of finished HDTVs onto shelves worldwide in time for the 2008 Beijing Olympics, a potential sales bonanza that is attracting every LCD, plasma, DLP, and LCOS HDTV manufacturer like moths to the flame.

Didn’t members here (Rogo IIRC) say these ^^^ same things a couple of years ago? Long before the legal issue.

I miss the pre-SED Auditor55. I think a conglomerate kidinapped him because he was getting the AV Industry to improve their product--now he's relegated to Tilting Windmills at SED.

Some people see the video world as it is and wonder why?

Auditor55 dreams SED dreams that never were and cries out why not?

Where have you gone Auditor55--our AVS nation turns its lonely eyes to you!

If you could watch The Graduate on SED would the blacks be so dark that no one could know how you really feel about Mrs. Robinson?

If you could watch The Graduate on SED would the blacks be so dark that no one could know how you really feel about Mrs. Robinson? One word comes to mind.... Plastics.

What amazes me is people that refer to SED as the "best." Based solely upon manufacturer claims, and glimpses under highly controlled conditions. NO ONE has had an SED to test in the "real world." I've seen posts where people claim it's the best they've seen- based on PICTURES of an SED- displayed on their home (non-SED) monitors!

Marketing- what a great field. Next to lawyers, down in the lowest ring of Hell.

What amazes me is people that refer to SED as the "best." Based solely upon manufacturer claims, and glimpses under highly controlled conditions. NO ONE has had an SED to test in the "real world." I've seen posts where people claim it's the best they've seen- based on PICTURES of an SED- displayed on their home (non-SED) monitors!That's not true. People have seen it at last years CES and claimed all the hype to be true.

Didn’t members here (Rogo IIRC) say these ^^^ same things a couple of years ago? Long before the legal issue.

Yep, he sure did.

I think Peter Putman sifts thru our AVS threads for story ideas.:D

That's not true. People have seen it at last years CES and claimed all the hype to be true.

Agreed. According to reports and eyewitness accounts, SED is on another level when it comes to display technology. Its SED and then everything else. Plasma is on its last leg and is soon headed for the dust bin of display technology, not because of SED, but due to growth of the LCD market.

Pioneer is attempting to breath some of new life into dying display technology, but they will fail in thier attempt, no one wants to pay $20,000 (predicted price) for an older and inferior display technology.

A company can get away with high prices for a new and exciting technology, but not an older maxed out display technology.

I miss the pre-SED Auditor55. I think a conglomerate kidinapped him because he was getting the AV Industry to improve their product--now he's relegated to Tilting Windmills at SED.

Some people see the video world as it is and wonder why?

Auditor55 dreams SED dreams that never were and cries out why not?

Where have you gone Auditor55--our AVS nation turns its lonely eyes to you!

If you could watch The Graduate on SED would the blacks be so dark that no one could know how you really feel about Mrs. Robinson?

I'm still here and the SED flames still burns with in me.

The SED yield problems could be a major obstacle to getting any volume of finished HDTVs onto shelves worldwide in time for the 2008 Beijing Olympics, a potential sales bonanza that is attracting every LCD, plasma, DLP, and LCOS HDTV manufacturer like moths to the flame.

Lets not forget, the above is all speculation and tantamount to gossip. He doesn't know what the fate of SED is going to be and that is a fact.

Lets not forget, the above is all speculation and tantamount to gossip. He doesn't know what the fate of SED is going to be and that is a fact.You are joking right? All of your statements regarding SED are riddled with hyperbole and you’re accusing someone else of spreading speculation and gossip? And please don’t roll out your quotes from the esteemed Doctor again.

You are joking right? All of your statements regarding SED are riddled with hyperbole and you’re accusing someone else of spreading speculation and gossip? And please don’t roll out your quotes from the esteemed Doctor again.

Well, you know, the only thing that has kept my faith in SED coming to market is Canons long history of selling excellent Consumer TV sets. No one has ever owned a bad Canon TV set. :)

The idea of SED excites me, but the technology has yet to show up when and where it should IF it was on track. We know about the trials and tribulations surrounding SED, and that it has had a very bumpy ride trying to even build a formal and viable business plan, let alone addressing manufacturing issues and economies of scale.

But hope is an ingrained part of the human spirit, and we have always longed to looked for something bigger, better, and all encompassing to hang hope's proverbial hat on. For some SED is that hat rack........................

If it did show up it woudl be YEARS from now at exorbitant prices. It wouldn't even be affordable (5k or less) until 2011 AT BEST. 2011 i would be a miracle. Realistically we are looking at 2015.

But display techs are evolving, they are not sitting around waiting for the great savior...SED. SED will hold no advantage over other FP display techs by the time it comes out (if ever).

Well, you know, the only thing that has kept my faith in SED coming to market is Canons long history of selling excellent Consumer TV sets. No one has ever owned a bad Canon TV set. :)


You forgot that Toshiba will OEM SED sets. :)

This next week could be major in this melodrama

Will people in the year 2015 finally admit that 1080p looks better than 480p?

Will people still be buying 480p DVD players then?

Can SED make those pictures look three dimensional?

Will people in the year 2015 finally admit that 1080p looks better than 480p?

Will people still be buying 480p DVD players then?

Can SED make those pictures look three dimensional?Sounds like the beginnings of a new Zager and Evans tune.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VnS8X8k3C8

If it did show up it woudl be YEARS from now at exorbitant prices. It wouldn't even be affordable (5k or less) until 2011 AT BEST. 2011 i would be a miracle. Realistically we are looking at 2015.



can i ask what that prediction based on ?


:rolleyes:

This next week could be major in this melodrama

Why?

I stand by my statement: NO ONE has had an SED to test in the "real world."

I certainly don't consider brief viewings at CES, showing only material selected by Canon, to be "real world." Why do you? After some units (note the plural) are put out for review without "minders" from Canon, after they've been set up and run thru their paces in homes or offices away from Canon's total control, after they've been thoroughly reviewed by independent reviewers, after they've been watched for hours, not minutes, and with various source materials- THEN it's been tested in the "real world."

It is not believable to declare something the best, etc, based upon what was seen at a trade show and completely controlled by the manufacturer. Easy to impress people under those circumstances. You're going to believe people who say "all the hype is true" based on so little? Let them prove their product like every other product- independent review.

And just how are SEDs going to make it to market in time for the 2008 Olympics, when the plant to mass produce them has been cancelled? When Canon has pulled back and is now aiming at low rate production for commercial uses for the product? At best.


"Plasma is on its last leg and is soon headed for the dust bin of display technology, not because of SED, but due to growth of the LCD market."

I mostly agree with that, and would add it's future demise will also be due to inherent flaws such as fill factor problems. Other technologies, perhaps OLED, will arise and eat it's lunch. But plasma sales will still grow for years to come, before fading.

Sounds like the beginnings of a new Zager and Evans tune.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VnS8X8k3C8

I liked that. How did you ever find it?

I always wonder how people find certain things on the web. I must be stuck in my own little set or urls. Gotta break out.

I stand by my statement: NO ONE has had an SED to test in the "real world."


"Plasma is on its last leg and is soon headed for the dust bin of display technology, not because of SED, but due to growth of the LCD market."[/I]

I mostly agree with that, and would add it's future demise will also be due to inherent flaws such as fill factor problems. Other technologies, perhaps OLED, will arise and eat it's lunch. But plasma sales will still grow for years to come, before fading.


Navy, I sure agree with your first statement. SED has not been tested in the real world. It might be fun as well as useful for the television afficianados who frequent AVS to look ahead but SED as you say ain't real yet.

Whoever posted the quote on the growth of LCD as causing the demise of Plasma has not looked at the statistics. They are misleading if not properly interpreted. Statistics have to be interpreted properly and in their context.

It may not be the best analogy but I hope you all go after my intent here -- and maybe you have a better analogy: over the last 40 years ford, chevy and toyotas, etc have grown and grown and have grabbed a large market share but that does not mean Lexus and BMW, etc are headed for the dust bin. If plasma or lcd go to the dust bin it will be for other reasons -- market share is not the root cause if it happens.

Obviously, Companies are interested in their targeted profit goals and need to ensure they remain current technologically in order to meet those goals -- And Pioneer's or Fujitu's goal may not be to have the largest market share. I know of companies whose goal was indeed market share but to remain in business and to increase profit they gave up that metric, went after their passions and concentrated on technology and meeting customer needs.

I liked that. How did you ever find it?

I always wonder how people find certain things on the web. I must be stuck in my own little set or urls. Gotta break out.Thank you; I’m happy you enjoyed it.

It really is amazing when you Google something-- and then-- make subtle variations and re-Google.

There is a reason why Google is valued at obscene amounts of money. It truly is an amazing tool.

But to answer you, if it’s not a rhetorical question, the first thing to come to mind when I read Artwood’s post was that song. So I Googled the song title and came up with various links. I made some changes and searched again and found that video. I’ve seen it before and thought it mated appropriately with Artwood’s subtle wit. About a minute or two later, I posted that link.

To get back on topic, the year 2525 seems a lot closer than the arrival of SED.

Why?

On February 12 Canon re did their technology page on SED. First that I've seen in a long while. Today is Presidents Day and markets are closed. Thursday is the scheduled day for jury selection in the SED trial.

Will people in the year 2015 finally admit that 1080p looks better than 480p?


Not if they keep sitting 12' from their postage-stamp size TV's.

can i ask what that prediction based on ?


:rolleyes:


Just an observers opinion based upon looking at the tech market. SED is nowhere in sight, let alone anywhere near production. I am basing that time estimate on generalizations about developing/marketing/bringing any major tech like "SED" to fruition and on the shelves of Best Buy en masse.

Then add on time for the price to drop.

Do that math and tell me what year you come up with.

BTW, SED is what we call vaporware at this point. Doesn't exist. I am all for new display tech's, but the feet dragging, false promises, broken deadlines, etc. surrounding this tech is laughable.

Don't repeatedly make statements you can't stand by. You lose credibility. That is what I would say to the "makers" of SED.

From what I gather, this year's CES was to be the "coming out" of SED. Every display in the Canon booth, many in the Toshiba booth, with huge emphasis in the technology were pulled 2 weeks before the show. This was entirely due to litigation. It does still remain vaporware and any speculation on its availability to the conumer or in limited quantity is unknown. And I'm eternally, like Auditor, optimistic.

Just an observers opinion based upon looking at the tech market. SED is nowhere in sight, let alone anywhere near production. I am basing that time estimate on generalizations about developing/marketing/bringing any major tech like "SED" to fruition and on the shelves of Best Buy en masse.

Then add on time for the price to drop.

Do that math and tell me what year you come up with.

BTW, SED is what we call vaporware at this point. Doesn't exist. I am all for new display tech's, but the feet dragging, false promises, broken deadlines, etc. surrounding this tech is laughable.

Don't repeatedly make statements you can't stand by. You lose credibility. That is what I would say to the "makers" of SED.

In addition to those points, factor in the fact that Canon has no history of manufacturing and distributing Consumer TV sets, of any kind. Pioneering a major new TV display technology would be a daunting obstacle for any of the major TV companies, who actually have a history of distributing the product, but at least they have the marketing distribution system in place, and have strong experience with producing and assembling all the components. Canon has none of that.

If Canon does bring SED to market, everything in the display, all the components etc, will be virgin territory for Canon. Who would be willing to place a large bet on a guy, who has never swung a baseball bat in his life, actually hitting a home run, with his first swing against major league pitching. That is what Canon is going to have to do with their first TV line.

In addition to those points, factor in the fact that Canon has no history of manufacturing and distributing Consumer TV sets, of any kind. Pioneering a major new TV display technology would be a daunting obstacle for any of the major TV companies, who actually have a history of distributing the product, but at least they have the marketing distribution system in place, and have strong experience with producing and assembling all the components. Canon has none of that.

If Canon does bring SED to market, everything in the display, all the components etc, will be virgin territory for Canon. Who would be willing to place a large bet on a guy, who has never swung a baseball bat in his life, actually hitting a home run, with his first swing against major league pitching. That is what Canon is going to have to do with their first TV line.

Canon is in their 5th year of distributing multimedia projectors and have had a consumer video presense (including VCRs) for over 30 years. They haven't manufactured a big box, but this one is light weight and sexy and marketing and distribution are the least of their worries. Their big concern was addressed by Toshiba, manufacturing expertise in big boxes. If the stakes are high enough, I'm sure they'll find a way.

This may include some of their current plans addressing manufacturing issues.

http://www.canon.com/press/2007/sed2007jan12.html

And I'm eternally, like Auditor, optimistic.

I think that is called unrealistic, actually. ;)

I think that is called unrealistic, actually. ;)

True, but much less stressful.:D

Canon is in their 5th year of distributing multimedia projectors and have had a consumer video presense (including VCRs) for over 30 years. They haven't manufactured a big box, but this one is light weight and sexy and marketing and distribution are the least of their worries. Their big concern was addressed by Toshiba, manufacturing expertise in big boxes. If the stakes are high enough, I'm sure they'll find a way.

All of which has nothing to do with my point. Projectors and VCRs are made and distributed by many. Nothing revolutionary about those items. Hell, they could have just reverse engineered those products, and be up and running. My point still stands. They have never been in the TV business, and every thing about producing SED sets is completely virgin territory.

All of which has nothing to do with my point. Projectors and VCRs are made and distributed by many. Nothing revolutionary about those items. Hell, they could have just reverse engineered those products, and be up and running. My point still stands. They have never been in the TV business, and every thing about producing SED sets is completely virgin territory.

What is your point? Might read post 937 link.:D

From what I gather, this year's CES was to be the "coming out" of SED. Every display in the Canon booth, many in the Toshiba booth, with huge emphasis in the technology were pulled 2 weeks before the show. This was entirely due to litigation. It does still remain vaporware and any speculation on its availability to the conumer or in limited quantity is unknown. And I'm eternally, like Auditor, optimistic.


Very good points you made. Lets not forget, we would have all seen SED at the 2007 CES had it not been for the litigation. Personally I believe that this technology will eventually make to the market because its just too good not to.

Today's summary judgement against Canon leaves Nano-Proprietary holding all the cards in their negotiations. It sounds like Canon basically lost all rights to use the technology and is back to square one.

Today's summary judgement against Canon leaves Nano-Proprietary holding all the cards in their negotiations. It sounds like Canon basically lost all rights to use the technology and is back to square one.
a nice summary ?:
http://news.com.com/2100-1047_3-6161591.html?part=rss&tag=2547-1_3-0-5&subj=news

http://www.websmileys.com/sm/mad/1106.gif

Today's summary judgement against Canon leaves Nano-Proprietary holding all the cards in their negotiations. It sounds like Canon basically lost all rights to use the technology and is back to square one.

In Auditor55 spin-speak, this means great news for SED & Canon, and FINALLY, Canon can re-negotiate its agreement w/Nano and get the ball rolling again! Boy oh boy, it looks like we're home free now! Can't wait! I can just see those SED's rolling off the imaginary assembly line and onto the invisible store shelves!

lol:
"Judge Samuel Sparks, with the U.S. District Court for the Western District of Texas, ruled in a summary judgment Thursday that Canon violated its agreement with Texas-based Nano-Proprietary by forming a joint television venture with Toshiba."

Bury this thing............ :cool:

N.P.-

We have built an extensive intellectual property portfolio and currently have over 200 patents and patent applications pending

all i have to say is if everybody in nanotechnology will have to deal with these folks i wish to be a lawyer.




:(

lol:
"Judge Samuel Sparks, with the U.S. District Court for the Western District of Texas, ruled in a summary judgment Thursday that Canon violated its agreement with Texas-based Nano-Proprietary by forming a joint television venture with Toshiba."

Bury this thing............ :cool:

How do you bury a memory? :eek:

I guess the only remaining question here is: Does Canon bother? No one else is going to commercialize this technology. The business case was horrible and is now worse. Canon had the edge in possible time to market (over anyone else doing this) and a hype machine that clearly ran so far ahead of reality due to excitement over "potential."

Canon could (a) renegotiate a license and continue its plans at a somewhat delayed pace or (b) not enter a market it has no business it and is unlikely to make money at. Oh, (b) is actually the collective opinion of some institutional shareholders of Canon as well as this poster.

Either way, "this decade" and "purchasing an SED TV" are not likely to be placed together in an affirmative sentence.

As often, a story of greed, hype, wide eyes and geek tech meets with a likely unhappy ending.

rogo, it's essentially the same conclusion I came to.
I really don't see Canon throwing any more money at this.

So, as of today the only remaining question is: Will the new Pioneer Plasma's black level be as deep as Auditor55's depression?. :)

Poor Auditor... I guess he'll have to get a plasma..

Poor Auditor... I guess he'll have to get a plasma..

He may not have to give up, just yet. I hear that Canon had a contingency plan, just in case they lost the case. I am trying to get this confirmed, so do not take it as gospel, but what I am hearing is that Canon wants to try and meet their original SED delivery promise, and in order to do so, they will now try and persuade China to postpone the Summer Olympic Games Indeffinatly. :)

The greed appears to be from that small company.

Canon and Toshiba working together had the best chance to help commercialize the technology.

But by demanding huge upfront payments, they're only going to be left with their patents and no royalties revenues.

The company is also suing some German guy who's the patent-holder on a lot of essential technologies.

You would think an IP company (which are sometimes "patent-trolls") would wait to see if a technology is successful before overburdening it with IP claims.

You would think an IP company (which are sometimes "patent-trolls") would wait to see if a technology is successful before overburdening it with IP claims.


I agree. You would think that manufacturing in high volume would be a very
large and on-going revenue stream that could dwarf any damages or patent
infringement lawsuits. It also would seem that the window of opportunity
for this technology won't be open for very much longer.

In Auditor55 spin-speak, this means great news for SED & Canon, and FINALLY, Canon can re-negotiate its agreement w/Nano and get the ball rolling again! Boy oh boy, it looks like we're home free now! Can't wait! I can just see those SED's rolling off the imaginary assembly line and onto the invisible store shelves!

:p :p :p

Yes, as the sun slowly sets, Canon folds up their tent and steals away into the darkness, cutting their losses.

OK, NOT slowly.

The greed appears to be from that small company.

Canon and Toshiba working together had the best chance to help commercialize the technology.

But by demanding huge upfront payments, they're only going to be left with their patents and no royalties revenues.

The company is also suing some German guy who's the patent-holder on a lot of essential technologies.

You would think an IP company (which are sometimes "patent-trolls") would wait to see if a technology is successful before overburdening it with IP claims.

Canon signed a patent usage contract, and then tried to give it to Toshiba. Canon was in violation of the patent usage agreement. They should have renegotiated instead of trying to play the off shore Bigfoot game. You have no idea if other firms can use the patents in other types of displays. They law was on the IP company's side, and that proves that Canon was wrong. It is sheer nonsense to say that they should have let Canon violate the agreement in order to see if the might get a payoff down the road. They have a limited time, after they discover the violation, in which to register a legal protest. Even after they did, Canon did not want to mend their ways, and tried to run rough shod over the IP company. The IP company did not kill SED. Canon's corporate arrogance, and questionable business ethics of having brought Toshiba on board to share something they had a no right to provide, is what killed SED. They will now have to either make a new deal with the IP company, or buy the company, or shut down the SED venture. Canon still has never brought a TV line market.

So, as of today the only remaining question is: Will the new Pioneer Plasma's black level be as deep as Auditor55's depression?. :) :D :cool: Very good post... on many levels.

:D :cool: Very good post... on many levels.

Haha, it's a mean post. But it is good. I can't wait to see these new Plasmas. I am excited for SED... or more so in future tech in general. This technology allegience is just plain dumb. I just want the best PQ available.

Hear that Canon... AVAILABLE.

IGN Gear had some great statement I read just a few hours ago.

"Though SED technology blew us away when we got a look at it during CES 2006 (story), a variety of other technologies like Pioneer's next gen plasmas, Sharps active backlighting LCDs, and Sony's OLED have approached, if not surpassed, the ultra high contrast ratio figures that made SED so striking back in early 2006."

So while SED's future may look bleak. We got a ton of more to look foward to.

SED has a better chance of coming to market with BOTH Canon and Toshiba.

Nano-Tech or whoever may have just made it impossible for SED to come to market at all.

Perhaps we should suggest to Auditor that with his passion for SED, that HE buyout that rights for SED and begin mass producing the sets.

who knows, he might be a good salesman.

Canon signed a patent usage contract, and then tried to give it to Toshiba. Canon was in violation of the patent usage agreement. They should have renegotiated instead of trying to play the off shore Bigfoot game. You have no idea if other firms can use the patents in other types of displays. They law was on the IP company's side, and that proves that Canon was wrong. It is sheer nonsense to say that they should have let Canon violate the agreement in order to see if the might get a payoff down the road. They have a limited time, after they discover the violation, in which to register a legal protest. Even after they did, Canon did not want to mend their ways, and tried to run rough shod over the IP company. The IP company did not kill SED. Canon's corporate arrogance, and questionable business ethics of having brought Toshiba on board to share something they had a no right to provide, is what killed SED. They will now have to either make a new deal with the IP company, or buy the company, or shut down the SED venture. Canon still has never brought a TV line market.

Yep, this is a good post and sums it all up in a nutshell. Don't blame Nano for the illegal antics of Canon. Seems pretty cut & dried to me. If this is how Canon is doing business these days it spells very poorly on how they may cut corners in other areas of interest...namely their mfg'ering of products.

OK so there is greed on both sides as well as arrogance.

its besides the point, which is the granting of power is disproportionate here if a small i.p. company (which has already been compensated for ) can hold up the entire works for more money based on a technicality. leave your japanese-US business relations baggage at home and you might have a balanced opinion. this technology affects way too many people and is far more important than this stupid litigation.

Another twist?

http://www.smarthouse.com.au/TVs_And_Large_Display/SED?Article=/TVs%20And%20Large%20Display/SED/R2N7X7V9

Yep, this is a good post and sums it all up in a nutshell. Don't blame Nano for the illegal antics of Canon. Seems pretty cut & dried to me.

Its naive to think Nano would not have found some other way to squeeze cash out of Canon.
Canon is certainly not blameless in this.They themselves are ultimately responsible for giving NPI an opening to "ask" for more.

If this is how Canon is doing business these days it spells very poorly on how they may cut corners in other areas of interest...namely their mfg'ering of products.

LOL...a bit of a leap.Canon spends hundreds of millions to bring a new product to market and its stopped by lawyers.Yeah, watch out, I hear those Canon cameras really suck now. ;)

Yeah, that was a bit of a leap, but take a good think on how Canon screwed up this whole deal, and their gross negligence has come back to bite them on the butt. You talk of "squeezing" cash out of poor little ole Canon, but I think you'd be singing a different tune if you had stockholdings in Nano. If I held major patents to SED, it would be my RIGHT & DUTY to go after Canon for their illegal antics & business dealings. It is Canon you should be shaking your fists.

This Samsung thing is interesting. I could never understand why Nano was playing hardball this early in the game. Why not wait for success and then take it to court. Just like Blackberry.

Perhaps, they have had a mistress all along and have been looking for a way to team with a bigger player.

There that should keep certain FB's going for a while :D

For me, the more players trying to product excellent displays at affordable prices the happier I am.

- Rich

Nano propietary has several basic patents, it must defend. SED was developed using some of the intellectual property Nano controls. Nano does not have the patent on SED technology. One of the things that makes SED work, is something many of us are overlooking, in questioning why Canon is involved. Ink jet printing techniques are used in the process, that is probably why Nano thought Canon was going to license Nano's property, not to make display panels, but something related to printing.

So NPI wanted to renegotiate the terms probably and saw an out.

But if Canon decides to walk away and nobody else comes along, then how valuable are those patents?

So NPI wanted to renegotiate the terms probably and saw an out.

But if Canon decides to walk away and nobody else comes along, then how valuable are those patents?

Good point, but to manufacture SED, CNT, or FED, you must get a license for some basic building blocks from Nano. Going back to Canon's original plan: manufacturing starting at 1000 per month building to 30,000 the first year. Larger plant on line an 30000 per month second year, market penetration of 30% within 5 years. That is 30% of a 90 billion dollar market. For royalty payments of 2-3% that's very tempting. The argument against later generation plasmas and LCDs is probably invalid. OLED is a long way off in larger form factor. SED is environmentally friendly (a major issue with the future of plasma), a fraction of the operating costs of all current technologies, less expensive to manufacture and has a long life. If it sounds to good too be true, maybe it is, but we should find out in the next few years.:D

So NPI wanted to renegotiate the terms probably and saw an out.

But if Canon decides to walk away and nobody else comes along, then how valuable are those patents?

Exactly! I think Nano could have handled this a lot better.

Exactly! I think Nano could have handled this a lot better.

Nano handled it completely as they wanted to. They own the patent. They went to court. They won the court case. Canon lost the court case, so obviously Canon handled it badly. Surely Nano is best equipped to evaluate what was in their best interest. I think Canon could have handled this a lot better.

I must disagree. Nano may well have throttled the golden goose. Sure, they win in court, get some money- and the technology never reaches mass production. That's where the real money could have been, if they renegotiated a contract with Canon outside of court. The best they can likely hope for out of Canon now, if Canon relicenses at all, is low rate production for professional use only.

The entire episode will no doubt make it difficult for someone else to step up and license the patents. Nano can't be seen as someone good to work with. Besides, there are other nano material based display technologies under development, that might not involve Nano's patents. But display technology keeps moving on. Current displays (outside of CRTs) keep getting cheaper, and other displays (such as OLED) offer great promise of cheap production and very high quality. Phosphers may have just seen their day, and it's passed.

Certainly, Canon handled it badly. Their lawyers can't read a contract?

Nano cannot be that dumb, can they? I cannot believe that they stupidly killed the golden goose without having a new strategy.

They must have thought about all the options at their disposal -- regardless of the outcome of the trial. You always think ahead in something like this. Maybe they have some options we are not aware of. We will know more in five years, eh?

as far as phosphors dying ... how soon is that going to happen?

You wonder if they have any idea about how cutthroat the display business.

Or that it makes more sense to have Toshiba involved, because there's no guarantee that SED will be successful so you want some company with retail CE distribution and infrastructure for supply and service, all of which Canon alone does not have.

Maybe they don't have much in the way of revenues and their VCs are pressuring them to try to get more money upfront, even if it endangers a potentially much bigger payoff later on if the technology hits.

Nano may well have over estimated Canon's dedication to SED. Or maybe they didn't, and know something, and the phoenix will arise from the ashes again. You're right, we should know a LOT more in 5 years. Probably by Xmas '09. Lot's of people will be looking for TVs around then, as they tire of watching widescreen HDTV letterboxed thru a converter box on their 27" SDTV.

Phosphors- By 2010, direct view CRTs should be going the way of the CRT RPTVs- oblivion. LCD sets should be so close in price to CRTs that fewer and fewer people will buy them. I suspect when that tipping point is reached, it will be an "8 track" cliff.

BTW, today's ad for CC shows a 32" 4:3 CRT for $300, and a 32" 16:9 LCD for $700. Both with digital tuners, both name brands. The gap is closing. Will the larger CRTs continue to disappear first, driving CRTs to ever smaller screen sizes?

Plasmas have certainly improved and are a good product. But cost wise, possible power consumption wise (especially if OLED makes it to market), and fill factor wise, they will gradually lose out to LCD and other technologies. I wonder how many sell in Denver?

What ever happened to the SED fanatic. He has gone missing. Anyone have a picture of him for the Milk Cartons. :)

Nano cannot be that dumb, can they? I cannot believe that they stupidly killed the golden goose without having a new strategy.

They must have thought about all the options at their disposal -- regardless of the outcome of the trial. You always think ahead in something like this. Maybe they have some options we are not aware of. We will know more in five years, eh?



I'm sure they're not dumb but they're taking a risk. Canon violated the contract and now they're going to have to renegotiate an agreement with Nano if they really want to proceed with this. If they don't and no-one else steps up to the plate then Nano will be left empty handed.

Please stop all this pity party talk about Nano being left empty handed. They have already made some money from the original Canon agreement, and will get more from the court damages awarded. Can any of you say with authority, and actual documentary evidence as proof, that the patent in question does not have other technical applications potential, and can not be used by other corporations. Where are you getting your information that proves that Canon is the only chance that Nano had. Canon has never sold a line of TVs, and the way that they screwed up in this patent rights case, provides clear evidence of how inept they are.

Please stop all this pity party talk about Nano being left empty handed. They have already made some money from the original Canon agreement, and will get more from the court damages awarded. Can any of you say with authority, and actual documentary evidence as proof, that the patent in question does not have other technical applications potential, and can not be used by other corporations. Where are you getting your information that proves that Canon is the only chance that Nano had. Canon has never sold a line of TVs, and the way that they screwed up in this patent rights case, provides clear evidence of how inept they are.


There is probably all kinds of potential for the patents NPI holds if they had a clue at all!
NPI is a profitless (http://stocks.us.reuters.com/stocks/incomeStatement.asp?symbol=NNPP.OB&WTmodLOC=L2-LeftNav-17-FinancialStatements&period=Q) 29 employee (mostly lawyers?) IP holding company that has likely sued its best chance at a profit into non-existence.

Job well done.

Oh, and I'm sure corporations are beating down the door to license NPI held patents.That or maybe invest in a New York bridge. :)

What will probably happen is some display technology will come along using some kind of "nano" tech, not necessarily Nano Proprietary tech.

If these new displays generate huge revenues, then NPI will try to sue, arguing that any use of nano tech processes constitutes use of their patents.

NPI's daily stock sales are normally around a quarter million shares. Today they are over a million one and rising. Someone must think things are going well in Texas.:D

What ever happened to the SED fanatic. He has gone missing. Anyone have a picture of him for the Milk Cartons. :)
^^^ So that's where he's been. Dumping his 'soon to be' wallpaper. :p

Given that Nano had a lump sum payment from Canon (assuming my memory is correct -- often a bad assumption) with no royalty plan, they had nothing to loose from stopping Canon.

My guess, is that a new agreement will be announced in the next few months.

Given that Nano had a lump sum payment from Canon (assuming my memory is correct -- often a bad assumption) with no royalty plan, they had nothing to loose from stopping Canon.

My guess, is that a new agreement will be announced in the next few months.

Or days.

NPI's daily stock sales are normally around a quarter million shares. Today they are over a million one and rising. Someone must think things are going well in Texas.:D

You have to love all those folks, who just know better than those that own the company, how they should actually run it. They sound like all those fantasy sports fans who call talk radio with plans on how their team should trade a couple of nothings for someone else's star player. I just never understand why General Managers and CEOs don't listen to them. :)

In addition to those points, factor in the fact that Canon has no history of manufacturing and distributing Consumer TV sets, of any kind. Pioneering a major new TV display technology would be a daunting obstacle for any of the major TV companies, who actually have a history of distributing the product, but at least they have the marketing distribution system in place, and have strong experience with producing and assembling all the components. Canon has none of that.

If Canon does bring SED to market, everything in the display, all the components etc, will be virgin territory for Canon. Who would be willing to place a large bet on a guy, who has never swung a baseball bat in his life, actually hitting a home run, with his first swing against major league pitching. That is what Canon is going to have to do with their first TV line.

You have to love all those folks, who just know better than those that own the company, how they should actually run it. They sound like all those fantasy sports fans who call talk radio with plans on how their team should trade a couple of nothings for someone else's star player. I just never understand why General Managers and CEOs don't listen to them.


Tell me about it! ;) :D :)

VFR said it best with his 3:27 post today.

And I believe Nano got $10M as their original payment from Canon. Probably blown much of that on lawyer's fees, never mind recouping their R&D.

Expensive displays are history. SED, if it is ever mass produced, will not be on the cheap end. And it may not be the best.

Another twist?

http://www.smarthouse.com.au/TVs_And_Large_Display/SED?Article=/TVs%20And%20Large%20Display/SED/R2N7X7V9

Hah..and just wait and see what happens to Samsung when they try and rip off Pioneer's new baby. :eek:

Please stop all this pity party talk about Nano being left empty handed. They have already made some money from the original Canon agreement, and will get more from the court damages awarded. Can any of you say with authority, and actual documentary evidence as proof, that the patent in question does not have other technical applications potential, and can not be used by other corporations. Where are you getting your information that proves that Canon is the only chance that Nano had. Canon has never sold a line of TVs, and the way that they screwed up in this patent rights case, provides clear evidence of how inept they are.

Greenland, sorry to disagree here. Canon is far from inept. I think that they knew they were taking chances from the begining.

As far as Nano goes, if there are any other applications that this or any other patents that they hold can be applied to then they had better do the research well. How many patents does Nano really hold? I will bet that it is very small next to what Canon holds. Canon has one of the largest patent libraries in the world and will not hesitate to take Nano to court in the future if they can make some case about an infringment on one of their patents.

Canon may find a way to get around this as well. They do invest much more than most companies in R&D and allot of their money has been made off of their patent licenses. Anybody remember the first laser printer, inkjet/bubblejet printer, color copier, fully digital copier, digital camera and etc...? All pioneered by Canon and they still collect money from allot of the patents and these are just the most well known. There are allot of things that they have that are like the BASF commercials, they don't make the product, they just make it better so to say.

As to Canon never making a line of TV's, as allot of other people here I don't believe that is an issue. I have never heard of a lot of the brands that are out there now where basically a company buys cheap LCD panels from a Asian maker puts a name on it and it shows up in all of the BB, CC and CostCo stores. Canon has brand name recognition and can at least get the exposure in the retail market that names like Olevia and Vizio can.

My 2 cents

Please stop all this pity party talk about Nano being left empty handed. They have already made some money from the original Canon agreement, and will get more from the court damages awarded. Can any of you say with authority, and actual documentary evidence as proof, that the patent in question does not have other technical applications potential, and can not be used by other corporations. Where are you getting your information that proves that Canon is the only chance that Nano had. Canon has never sold a line of TVs, and the way that they screwed up in this patent rights case, provides clear evidence of how inept they are.

For a good look at how patent lawsuits can derail a whole technology, I highly recommend the book "Internal Combustion" by Edwin Black.

For a good look at how patent lawsuits can derail a whole technology, I highly recommend the book "Internal Combustion" by Edwin Black.

I will check it out. Sounds like Canon should have.

Looks like Canon completely misjudged the patent agreement they signed. Now Canon will need to sign a royalty payment agreement if they decide to go ahead with SED.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070228/tc_nm/canon_nano_dc_1

"The original deal allowed Canon to license Nano-Proprietary's technology to its own units. Canon had claimed the venture with Toshiba was a subsidiary because Canon's 50 percent stake included one more share than its partner held.

To resolve the situation, Nano-Proprietary had offered to negotiate a separate license with Toshiba on the same terms as the initial deal with Canon, people familiar with the situation said.

But Canon told its partner not to worry and blocked Toshiba from talking to Nano-Proprietary, these people said."

Or Canon felt the deal allowed them to do what they did.

Either they will pursue an appeal or some settlement or decide NPI is too much of a PITA and look into something else.

Looks like Canon completely misjudged the patent agreement they signed. Now Canon will need to sign a royalty payment agreement if they decide to go ahead with SED.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070228/tc_nm/canon_nano_dc_1

"The original deal allowed Canon to license Nano-Proprietary's technology to its own units. Canon had claimed the venture with Toshiba was a subsidiary because Canon's 50 percent stake included one more share than its partner held.

To resolve the situation, Nano-Proprietary had offered to negotiate a separate license with Toshiba on the same terms as the initial deal with Canon, people familiar with the situation said.

But Canon told its partner not to worry and blocked Toshiba from talking to Nano-Proprietary, these people said."

WOW! Had a chance to get off cheap and blew it. I really think the two of them have locked each other in a death spiral. At least, as far as SED is concerned. Now, if they were to proceed, SEDs would be even MORE expensive, even less competitive in the market. And no way they'll make the 2008 Olympics.

I have to disagree with one thing in the article. There won't be any production, for Japan or elsewhere, unless Canon signs a new agreement. They no longer have any rights whatsoever to SED.

Yes, it's time to look into something else.

"Earlier this week, technology publisher Smarthouse reported that Samsung Electronics (005930.KS) has made approaches to get access to SED technology from Nano-Proprietary, citing a source at the South Korean consumer electronics giant.

A Samsung spokeswoman denied that the company was considering SED technology but added that the company would be interested in entering the market if there was any sign of demand.

Nano-Proprietary spokesman William Spina said the company would talk to anyone who was interested.

"We will talk to Canon, Toshiba, Samsung or any interested party regarding SED licensing agreement on a non-exclusive or exclusive basis," Spina said.

(Additional reporting by Marie-France Han in Seoul)"


This is interesting. I think if this technology is ever going to get off the ground, they definataly need to get more manufacturers involved.

Nano-Proprietary spokesman William Spina said the company would talk to anyone who was interested.

"We will talk to Canon, Toshiba, Samsung or any interested party regarding SED licensing agreement on a non-exclusive or exclusive basis," Spina said.

(Additional reporting by Marie-France Han in Seoul)"


Perhaps I'm reading too much here but it sounds to me they're afraid they might have killed the golden goose. Yeah, they won the lawsuit and gotten some money in the process. However they stood to have made a whole lot more if they settled licensing issues out of court and assisted in developing the technology with Canon and Toshiba.
If I were a Samsung or any other company, I'd be a little leary about getting involved with a company that might sue me to develop an unproven technology.

Perhaps I'm reading too much here but it sounds to me they're afraid they might have killed the golden goose. Yeah, they won the lawsuit and gotten some money in the process. However they stood to have made a whole lot more if they settled licensing issues out of court and assisted in developing the technology with Canon and Toshiba.
If I were a Samsung or any other company, I'd be a little leary about getting involved with a company that might sue me to develop an unproven technology.

In telling Canon that they would offer Toshiba the same offer (5.6 million)
They were giving Canon the chance to save face and get off at bargain basement rates. With Canon's arrogance they refused a discussion with Toshiba.

In telling Canon that they would offer Toshiba the same offer (5.6 million)
They were giving Canon the chance to save face and get off at bargain basement rates. With Canon's arrogance they refused a discussion with Toshiba.


Of course Nano is willing to talk business with any company that would be interested in leasing patent rights from them. How that is supposed to indicate that they are regretting having taken Canon to court , makes no sense. Nano is in the patent leasing business. Canon was not their only customer.. Nano is the one who actually owned the Golden eggs, and Canon/Toshiba were the Geese who were stopped from stealing Nano's golden eggs. :)