Of course Nano is willing to talk business with any company that would be interested in leasing patent rights from them. How that is supposed to indicate that they are regretting having taken Canon to court , makes no sense. Nano is in the patent leasing business. Canon was not their only customer.. Nano is the one who actually owned the Golden eggs, and Canon/Toshiba were the Geese who were stopped from stealing Nano's golden eggs. :)

Well said. Being big boy toy fans, I think our judgement is sometimes a bit biased.:D

The bottom line still is who is gonna take a chance on SED now. As I said before, if I were XYZ company I'd be leary about "leasing" an unproven technology I've gotta sink millions of dollars in. On one side if I don't make sure my "i"s are dotted I'll get sued. On the other side even if all goes well I'll be introducing a new display system likely higher in price than LCD or Plasma. These current technologies aren't standing around. They are getting cheaper and better all the time. Add to that OLED is another technology.
Thus back to square one, why the hell do I as owner or CEO want to venture into SED.
Reading in another post from what Samsung is saying, they'll do SED based on market demands. Doesn't sound like they want to be trailblazers with SED to me and that I think is the proper business position.
As I said before, they may have killed the goose with SED and the lawsuit. It doesn't matter how justified Nano might have been.

Gather ’round the flickering fire folks, for the cold night winds do howl like a brute this blustery ’eve. Tonight’s tale is ready for the telling despite the flurry’s talk and yelling...

Canon’s loss in court is really a victory for the SED partnership - and vindication for the Planners and their Failure Plan. It was planned internally all along, by the faction who realized that SED would never be able to compete. They needed a way to give up on SED without losing face, and having found a method, their Plan is only one turn away from fruition.

By purposely violating the terms of their agreement with Nano-Proprietary Inc., they set the stage for the ‘unavoidable’ loss of their right to market technology based on the patent(s). Thus the stage is now set for the final movement, in which Canon is ‘unable’ to negotiate a new license with Nano-Proprietary, and thus must give up on SED development.

The best feature of this ‘way out’ is that it is filled to the brim with ‘plausible deniability’, because the actions which made the path are close enough to those of a willful yet slightly blind actor who is trying to fulfill his project with excess passion and insufficient intelligence.

After more thought, I am struck by how incredibly intelligent and forward-looking the planners at Canon were. They realized just after licensing the patent(s) from NP, that their SED venture might fail after projected expenditure of billions of dollars.

Now, in Japan if your corporation has some billion-dollar project, and it fails, you are in big trouble, because you must ‘save face’ somehow, which usually means the firing of lots of people right up the management chain, and lots more bad stuff.

Shortly after their licensing of NP’s patent(s), the Planners realized that by their action they had acquired something else of value besides the patents themselves: a foreign corporation which would provide a safe ‘way out’ in case of SED’s failure: an ideal Gaijin scapegoat. It was a sweet bonus, a perhaps unexpected gift of fate.

The rationale went as follows: for reasons both necessary (financial, technical), and strategic, after the patent license(s) were acquired and their terms carefully analyzed, Canon began to make partnerships with Toshiba and other corporations in the development of SED. Their association with other corporations resulted in the patent(s) contents being exposed contrary to the license agreement.

The Plan was that if Canon’s SED venture were to succeed, or show signs of being able to succeed in the market, that Canon would re-negotiate the license with NP on easy terms, or at worst wait until NP found out about the violation, and then apologetically re-negotiate the license and pay due compensation in an easy manner.

Now, if things looked bad for SED, the Plan was that Canon would be an ass and force the issue into court by their inaction to voluntarily re-negotiate the license based on their later-formed partnerships, and if ruled against, be a bigger ass and refuse reasonable re-licensing terms.

The true genius of the Plan is that it allows Canon to save face in case of failure, by being able to blame a foreign (remember how Japanese hate foreigners), money-grubbing, American corporation. “We lost, we cannot win against these Gaijins, they are evil Texas cowboys who cannot understand the Japanese way of co-operation; they won't let us re-license under reasonable terms” they will say.

Even better, the ‘loss’ to NP in the ‘failure’ scenario will still allow the sweetest part of the plan to operate: they can still sell SEDs in Japan! Remember, Japan is a high-end market (room for an expensive product), at home (no export costs/restrictions), and not subject to US patent law.

Thus they can ‘save face’ for not being able to sell on the world market (where they would lose anyway, in the ‘failure’ scenario contemplated by the Planners), yet make profit at home where their only market in such a case will exist anyway. It can be seen then, that the ‘loss’ of the world-market outside Japan is in reality not a ‘loss’ if entering such a market would result in losses. Thus, the double-negative implies a positive: a win-win scenario! Finally we glimpse the subtle genius of the Japanese Planners, who are always thinking a few steps ahead of the crude Gaijins.

My congratulations fly out to the genius Yin passive-aggressive Planners in the ‘save-face’ faction, who by meticulous plotting discovered a way to have their cake and eat it too, all in true Japanese fashion: a real woman’s way out of the deal.

Other than the dubious pleasure of saying "I told you so" to a lot of disappointed people, I don't see why people are happy about this development, as it means we'll continue to be stuck with a choice between LCD with its poor dark-content performance and Plasma with its IR and energy-consumption issues. Cheer for LCD's triumph over CRT if you like, but IMO you must be blind as a bat if you can't see the PQ difference.

Once again, cream always rise to the top. SED will emerge, the technologies is too damn good. There will be no stopping SED once it gets delivered. We will able talking about the labor pains SED had to go through, but we will say it was really worth it.

Other than the dubious pleasure of saying "I told you so" to a lot of disappointed people, I don't see why people are happy about this development, as it means we'll continue to be stuck with a choice between LCD with its poor dark-content performance and Plasma with its IR and energy-consumption issues. Cheer for LCD's triumph over CRT if you like, but IMO you must be blind as a bat if you can't see the PQ difference.

They are happy because they think Plasma is god's gift to display technology and they don't want to come out of that delusion. There is something vastly superior to Plasma and its called SED. The fact that I know there is a superior display technology I could never be happy with plasma. SED will always be on my mind.

No tricks from Pioneer can fool me into think otherwise.

One thing that struck me is that NPI was willing to sell rights to the patents Canon licensed for relatively little money.

But they have other patents which can be licensed by other display technologies like LCD.

Perhaps NPI thought SED had little likelihood of making it to market? Or they probably had higher expectations of something like LCD, since it's already gained traction in the market whereas a completely new technology is at best speculative at this point?

Other than the dubious pleasure of saying "I told you so" to a lot of disappointed people, I don't see why people are happy about this development, as it means we'll continue to be stuck with a choice between LCD with its poor dark-content performance and Plasma with its IR and energy-consumption issues. Cheer for LCD's triumph over CRT if you like, but IMO you must be blind as a bat if you can't see the PQ difference.

Wouldn't SED have these same IR problems?

They are happy because they think Plasma is god's gift to display technology and they don't want to come out of that delusion. There is something vastly superior to Plasma and its called SED. The fact that I know there is a superior display technology I could never be happy with plasma. SED will always be on my mind.

No tricks from Pioneer can fool me into think otherwise.

Why don't you actually SEE the display before you think it's any trick. I think the SED hype has already 'fooled' you. I just keep chuckling as I read impression after impression that the new Pioneers were just as good, if not better than the things Canon showed off.

I can't wait to see both. I'll be buying a Pioneer. I can actually get one this century. Then maybe... when SED comes out, I'll take a look. Hopefully I'll still be in my twenties, and Canon (cough).. or Samsung.. or whoever else wants to step up to the plate that can actually make a TV design that looks good when the lights are on.

I know Canon can't. Nothing wrong with wanting a classy look for a flat panel. So much propaganda and fanboyism.

It's all about the Picture. And by the impressions I think Pioneer has just beat SEDs dreams down with a stick, and I think when they do come out we'll be like "sweeet."

Fanboyism sucks. The day LCD makes a better picture than Plasma, I'll jump to LCD. I can give a damn less what the three letter acronym behind the tech is.

Hah...LIES, DAMN LIES....and SED! :D

Don't worry about it SED fans. Canon has never made a bad TV set. Just purchase one from their extensive line. Oh, wait. Never mind. :)

Perhaps I'm reading too much here but it sounds to me they're afraid they might have killed the golden goose. Yeah, they won the lawsuit and gotten some money in the process. However they stood to have made a whole lot more if they settled licensing issues out of court and assisted in developing the technology with Canon and Toshiba.
If I were a Samsung or any other company, I'd be a little leary about getting involved with a company that might sue me to develop an unproven technology.

Yep!

The bottom line still is who is gonna take a chance on SED now. As I said before, if I were XYZ company I'd be leary about "leasing" an unproven technology I've gotta sink millions of dollars in. On one side if I don't make sure my "i"s are dotted I'll get sued. On the other side even if all goes well I'll be introducing a new display system likely higher in price than LCD or Plasma. These current technologies aren't standing around. They are getting cheaper and better all the time. Add to that OLED is another technology.
Thus back to square one, why the hell do I as owner or CEO want to venture into SED.
Reading in another post from what Samsung is saying, they'll do SED based on market demands. Doesn't sound like they want to be trailblazers with SED to me and that I think is the proper business position.
As I said before, they may have killed the goose with SED and the lawsuit. It doesn't matter how justified Nano might have been.

ABSOLUTELY!

Canon’s loss in court is really a victory for the SED partnership - and vindication for the Planners and their Failure Plan. It was planned internally all along, by the faction who realized that SED would never be able to compete. They needed a way to give up on SED without losing face, and having found a method, their Plan is only one turn away from fruition.

By purposely violating the terms of their agreement with Nano-Proprietary Inc., they set the stage for the ‘unavoidable’ loss of their right to market technology based on the patent(s). Thus the stage is now set for the final movement, in which Canon is ‘unable’ to negotiate a new license with Nano-Proprietary, and thus must give up on SED development.



And we have a WINNER!

Once again, cream always rise to the top. SED will emerge, the technologies is too damn good. There will be no stopping SED once it gets delivered. We will able talking about the labor pains SED had to go through, but we will say it was really worth it.

Oh, BULL! You haven't SEEN an SED! NO ONE HAS! Not under uncontrolled, real world conditions! You've fallen for marketing hype! Not a single SED has ever been released for independent review. NOT ONE SINGLE INDEPENDENT REVIEWER has seen SED outside of carefully controlled conditions at a trade show or limited display.

All we have to go on is marketing hype, promises, and GLIMPSES of SED. WHY do you believe this stuff? It's YEARS past their original intro date. They SAY they have conquered emitter erosion, uneven brightness, and manufacturability concerns. No one knows this. They've repeatedly delayed their product. They've cancelled their "new technology" production plant, replacing it with a factory that would build it like LCDs, not using the "new" production methods (that are supposed to be more cost effective). Of course, such a plant would be easily converted to produce LCDs if SEDs failed. And then they cancelled even that plant.

You have nothing but marketing claims to go on- why do you believe SED is the greatest, in the face of repeated backtracking and delays, in the face of not a single SED being released for independent review, in the face of delayed production, reduced production, cancelled plants for mass production?

If these people REALLY had a "great" product, they'd have let some independent reviewer have a crack at it. They'd have sent out a road show, letting thousands see the "great" SED. Let's face it- they've produced nothing but a few gilded show horses. If they had more, they'd have produced more.

SED is one of the biggest farces out there as far as I'm concerned. I heard about it probably about 2 years ago and that Toshiba would be making them soon.

I'm glad I didn't buy into the marketing hype and just went ahead and bought a new JVC LCoS projection last summer and this summer I plan to sell it to someone and replace it with another LCoS, either a big one or some sort of LCoS projector.

Even if SED comes out, it looks to me like it won't be big enough to satisfy me (only 50") and it will probably be expensive as hell. If you have the money, might as well just get a nice Pioneer plasma right now instead of waiting for this technology that keeps getting delayed like every time.

SED is one of the biggest farces out there as far as I'm concerned. I heard about it probably about 2 years ago and that Toshiba would be making them soon.

I'm glad I didn't buy into the marketing hype and just went ahead and bought a new JVC LCoS projection last summer and this summer I plan to sell it to someone and replace it with another LCoS, either a big one or some sort of LCoS projector.

Even if SED comes out, it looks to me like it won't be big enough to satisfy me (only 50") and it will probably be expensive as hell. If you have the money, might as well just get a nice Pioneer plasma right now instead of waiting for this technology that keeps getting delayed like every time.

You said it brother.

I hear ya Navy, Mustang, and Johnny. I wanted SED to work when I first read about it but even when I first heard about it 2 years ago, there were delays.
I suspect historically this will go down as one of those bad business blunders, the way Beta is an example of how not to do it.

Opinion of Insight Media Analyst Ken Werner:

Link not up yet but should be up later today. I don't have enough posts yet to put it up, but just go to displaydaily web site and it will be easy to find.

I would be more than mildly surprised if an SED-TV is ever sold at Best Buy. That's especially true now that Canon has bought Toshiba's share in SID Inc., which means that Canon will no longer have the benefit of Toshiba's consumer electronics experience and commercial common sense. I would not be surprised if at least some people at Toshiba are breathing a sigh of relief.

Canon seems to be pursuing a faith-based business plan, in which broadcast monitors supply an early market and - against all evidence - production cost then declines far more rapidly than does the production cost of LCDs and plasma panels, allowing SED-TV to compete in the CE market.

Canon Chairman and CEO Fujio Mitarai runs his company with an admirable social and environmental conscience, so it is hard not to wish him well. But I'm sorry, Mitarai-san; I can't believe your dream of SED-TV competing on an equal footing with LCD-TV and PDP-TV will ever become reality, in spite of SED's magnificent image quality. The TV business is about affordability, and LCD and PDP have traveled so far down the cost-quantity curve that any new technology must have very formidable inherent cost advantages to compete. SED doesn't qualify.

So Toshiba is out of the picture and Canon has a technology and product for which there is no convincing business plan. Who's the winner? It's Zvi Yaniv's Nano-Proprietary Inc. (NPI), which has won a significant decision over Canon before the United States District Court for the Western District of Texas. District Judge Sam Sparks ruled on February 22 that Canon violated the IP licensing contract it signed with NPI in 1999, validating NPI's termination of the agreement last December.

This gives NPI exactly what it wants: the opportunity to negotiate a new licensing agreement with Canon (or SED, Inc., which is now truly a Canon subsidiary). The 1999 licensing agreement called for a one-time payment of $5.6M with no royalties. That won't look like much if Canon actually goes into substantial series production of SED-TVs. Now, NPI can renegotiate the up-front amount and negotiate a royalty. And there's been no litigation yet on the amount of damages to which NPI is entitled as a result of Canon's contract violation, although Judge Sparks clearly ruled that NPI is entitled to damages.

With the legal decision going so decisively in NPI's favor, will Canon simply throw in the towel on its entire SED program? Not likely (and not at all what NPI wants). Mitarai-san has a dream that Canon-branded SED-TV sets will be sold to consumers. He's not ready to give up that dream. Not yet.

He seems to believe that Canon will stick it out for a while, but also he can see that their patience finite and a face saving exit may eventually be in the cards.

You said it brother.

Yep, my HT upgrade plan exactly.

Canon has made a statement on this issue, today. NPI's stock is up over 50%, this week and volume of sales has increased over 4 fold.

SED Fanatics want to focus on blaming Nano. Folks, go back an look at the history of how Toshiba/Canon SED announcements kept changing all through 2006. They were going to have SED consumer models available for a modest premium over LCD/Plasma prices. Then it became: SED will be a very expensive item, and not a commodity, like LCD and Plasma. Then it became: We are only going make very expensive SED displays for Corporations, and no consumer models. Then, at the last minute, we will not bring SED to CES, but we cannot reveal why, just some minor confidential things to be taken care of, and we still plan to manufacture SED product. Well, you know what happened after that.

One SED fanatic keeps repeating the same hackneyed phrase about Cream always rising to the top. No it doesn't, because most of it has been homogenized.

Sanity Erasing Delusionol.(SED)

Ask your Canon Spin Doctor if it is right for you.

Canon has made a statement on this issue, today. NPI's stock is up over 50%, this week and volume of sales has increased over 4 fold.

What did Canon say today, or where can we read it?. Thanks.

Edit: Never mind, I found the statement on Reuters, Japan March 2. 2007. Canon Chairman said that they expect to win the patent suit case in the USA. He had told Toshiba that say thing two years ago, and barred Toshiba from negotiating with Nano. This Canon guy is starting to sound more and more like the Black Knight in Monty Python's Holy Grail Movie. You know the guy who keeps geting his legs and arms cut off but keeps on claiming that he is winning.

This Canon guy is starting to sound more and more like the Black Knight in Monty Python's Holy Grail Movie. You know the guy who keeps geting his legs and arms cut off but keeps on claiming that he is winning.

So the court's decision a week ago was just a flesh wound? :)

What did Canon say today, or where can we read it?. Thanks.

Edit: Never mind, I found the statement on Reuters, Japan March 2. 2007. Canon Chairman said that they expect to win the patent suit case in the USA. He had told Toshiba that say thing two years ago, and barred Toshiba from negotiating with Nano. This Canon guy is starting to sound more and more like the Black Knight in Monty Python's Holy Grail Movie. You know the guy who keeps geting his legs and arms cut off but keeps on claiming that he is winning.

This is Canon's CEO. It was his signature was on the original 1999 agreement. And you're right.:D

Figured this info was close to SED even thought it is LED:

Philips Pro AV 10-120I LED !!!

Candeo 10mm Indoor 120" Monolithic LED Display Philips Pro AV 10-120I.

Here we go!! Very affordable at $449,99.00 MSRP !!
<<<click here>>> (www.clevelandplasma.com/cms_files/File/Philips LED.pdf) For PDF.

The interesting thing is these have a low native resolution.

What did Canon say today, or where can we read it?. Thanks.

Edit: Never mind, I found the statement on Reuters, Japan March 2. 2007. Canon Chairman said that they expect to win the patent suit case in the USA. He had told Toshiba that say thing two years ago, and barred Toshiba from negotiating with Nano. This Canon guy is starting to sound more and more like the Black Knight in Monty Python's Holy Grail Movie. You know the guy who keeps geting his legs and arms cut off but keeps on claiming that he is winning.

Two years from now, they Canon will be saying, "Come back here and take what's coming to you! I'll bite your legs off!"

Perhaps Nano DID take the most profitable route, for themselves, that is. Maybe they realized SED was NOT going to be competitive, and decided the only money to be made was to get damages in a lawsuit. Then if anyone licensed it again, so much the better. If not, they got an award for damages- better than anything they would see in the future if they just let Canon "get away with it."

I doubt they'll be licensing anything ever again without a royalties provision.

Figured this info was close to SED even thought it is LED:

Philips Pro AV 10-120I LED !!!

Candeo 10mm Indoor 120" Monolithic LED Display Philips Pro AV 10-120I.

Here we go!! Very affordable at $449,99.00 MSRP !!
<<<click here>>> (www.clevelandplasma.com/cms_files/File/Philips LED.pdf) For PDF.

The interesting thing is these have a low native resolution.


Yeah Chris, what's up with that? Typo? 256 X 144??? LMAO, pixels the size of quarters. What is that price again? 499,999.00? What a bargain. Sign me up for 2.

Edit: that has to be 2560 X 1440. Couldn't be anything less.

Yeah Chris, what's up with that? Typo? 256 X 144??? LMAO, pixels the size of quarters. What is that price again? 499,999.00? What a bargain. Sign me up for 2.

Edit: that has to be 2560 X 1440. Couldn't be anything less.


"Pixels the size of quarters". Much bigger than that. Pixels almost as large as the holes in Canons statements. :)

Actually much smaller. ;)
10mm = 1cm = Roughly half the size of a dime
pixel pitch = 10.125mm

Closeup example of an LED display:
http://akamai.globalsources.com.edgesuite.net/f/593/3445/5d/pdt.static.globalsources.com/IMAGES/PDT/BIG/913/B1002485913.jpg

Still a very large pixel. You'd have to be very far away from the set to have any PQ.

The PDF says 5-50 meters.
Not for HT.Think stadium installs.

http://www.mediamonster.tv/Daytime%20LED.htm

5 meters is only 16' or so. I think there'd be a lot of SDE at that distance.

Wouldn't SED have these same IR problems?

No, it was supposed to have the same IR characteristics as CRT. I don't understand the technology enough to know why; possibly it's because plasma can't completely shut off cells and/or uses different phosphors.

Anyway, I suppose I'll now become an OLED fanboy. I can't accept LCD wiping out all other technologies; it just doesn't look "right" to my eyes. OLED seems to promise me (1) low energy consumption, (2) fast response times, (3) no IR issues, (4) wide colour gamut, (5) better fill factor. This seems to me in every way superiour to LCD, plasma, and even SED. I had not considered OLED seriously mainly because the technology didn't appear on track to deliver TV-sized screens any time soon, whereas SED was supposed to be out 2 years ago. With this latest delay in SED, the timeframe is such that OLED will be available before SED can gain significant market share. I just hope they don't kill OLED, too.

Actually much smaller. ;)
10mm = 1cm = Roughly half the size of a dime
pixel pitch = 10.125mm

Closeup example of an LED display:
http://akamai.globalsources.com.edgesuite.net/f/593/3445/5d/pdt.static.globalsources.com/IMAGES/PDT/BIG/913/B1002485913.jpg

Great picture, thanks! Talk about fill factor problems.....

Great picture, thanks! Talk about fill factor problems.....

Yeah...not for critical viewing.
Pretty cool stuff though and it seems to be quite prevalent.
http://www.impactav.com/

Is it true that SED's funeral will be in the Bahamas?

lol Artwood. It's still in litigation. Canon and Toshiba want it buried in Texas.

Is it true that SED's funeral will be in the Bahamas?Well after all, it is the new silicone valley.

Well after all, it is the new silicone valley.

Yes and any drug you like, even SED is available there. :p

Nano POroprietary just sold Japanese royalties for nano backlighting to Mitsui, citing a current 30-35% cost of total for LCD panels, usin current backlights. In theory this should allow for a rapid reduction in cost of LCD TV production.

Who cares, isn't the future of LCD TVs LED backlight arrays?

Who cares, isn't the future of LCD TVs LED backlight arrays?

Costs for both LED and Laser are considerably higher. Nano technology as a whole is considered disruptive because of its huge cost benefit. That's why SED doesn't have a cost to manufacture issue, but rather an infrastructure cost to build issue. The products are inexpensive by todays standards.

Another advantage of nanotube lighting over current technology a 32" lcd at 180w could run as low as 60w with no mercury content. Cutting your utility bill by 2/3 on your TV usage maybe a good thing.

Will Canon give China the OK to stage the Summer Olympics, without them?. ;)

Costs for both LED and Laser are considerably higher. Nano technology as a whole is considered disruptive because of its huge cost benefit. That's why SED doesn't have a cost to manufacture issue, but rather an infrastructure cost to build issue. The products are inexpensive by todays standards.
Being in the industry, the cost to manufacture issue for SED that you talk about was not about nano technology, it was about Canon's printing technology. Canon, Epson and other print technology manufactures already make inkjet printers that are used in color filter apps in the LCD market. Canon is working on new proceses that will help in the manufacture of SED.

Using a printing technology would cut out many of the litho process steps that are currently used in manufacturing LCD and plasma screens. Now coaters are used to deposit resist, a stepper is used to expose the resist with a pattern, a developer is used to develop the exposed resist and then the pattern is used for metal deposition or other materials after which the original resist is removed and the process repeats. Each step is expensive in terms of materials and equipment and serves as a process where defects can be introduced.

With printing, it is a one or two step process, saving money on chemicals, equipment, time and process induced defects.

Being in the industry, the cost to manufacture issue for SED that you talk about was not about nano technology, it was about Canon's printing technology. Canon, Epson and other print technology manufactures already make inkjet printers that are used in color filter apps in the LCD market. Canon is working on new proceses that will help in the manufacture of SED.

Using a printing technology would cut out many of the litho process steps that are currently used in manufacturing LCD and plasma screens. Now coaters are used to deposit resist, a stepper is used to expose the resist with a pattern, a developer is used to develop the exposed resist and then the pattern is used for metal deposition or other materials after which the original resist is removed and the process repeats. Each step is expensive in terms of materials and equipment and serves as a process where defects can be introduced.

With printing, it is a one or two step process, saving money on chemicals, equipment, time and process induced defects.


Canon had promised to develop the printing approach for SED, but they revealed , last year, that they were not able to make it work. Canon has claimed a lot of great things about SED that never came true.

Nano POroprietary just sold Japanese royalties for nano backlighting to Mitsui, citing a current 30-35% cost of total for LCD panels, usin current backlights. In theory this should allow for a rapid reduction in cost of LCD TV production.


No, this can not be true. Didn't Mitsui read all the recent claims, on this thread, that by stopping Canon from stealing from them, Nano had scared off every other Corporation from doing business with them. :)

:)
Get back to us in 10 years when all these companies align with Nano for a SED TV that might compete against LCD, Plasma, and OLED.

Great picture, thanks! Talk about fill factor problems.....

Here we ago again, another ill concieved, deficient display technology designed to hoodwink the public. We need the real thing, SED. I don't want any more half- baked, severly flawed display technologies.

SED, to this day, is still the only display technology that meet all the requirements of a perfect display, which seems to be to the chagrin of the SED hating Plasma loving sycophants.

No, this can not be true. Didn't Mitsui read all the recent claims, on this thread, that by stopping Canon from stealing from them, Nano had scared off every other Corporation from doing business with them. :)


Your optimism is admirable but its interesting that NPI now needs a middleman to license its IP.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articleinvesting.aspx?view=CN&storyID=2007-03-07T013225Z_01_T343572_RTRIDST_0_MITSUI-LCD.XML&rpc=66&type=qcna

How much did Mitsui pay to be a middleman? I guess probably not much if anything and that its a performance based deal.

Let me know when a real manufacturer steps up.

SED, to this day, is still the only display technology that meet all the requirements of a perfect display, which seems to be to the chagrin of the SED hating Plasma loving sycophants.

Meets all the requirements of a perfect display? You mean like availability?

Its amazing that you fabricate good things about SED yet fabricate bad things about other technologies. Must be on Canon's payroll. :rolleyes:

Auditor55: In the first Star Trek Movie commander Decker merged with pure energy.

If you were able to do it would you like to merge with the true essence of SED?

Auditor55: In the first Star Trek Movie commander Decker merged with pure energy.

If you were able to do it would you like to merge with the true essence of SED?

Even the machine planet knew SED was a lie. :D

... merge with the true essence of SEDThat sounds so wrong. :p

. We need the real thing, SED. I don't want any more half- baked, severly flawed display technologies.
.


Come on. You know that half-baked would be a perfect match for you!. :)

Maybe Apex or Orion will come out with SED.

Maybe Apex or Orion will come out with SED.
Very highly unlikely, as they don't have the skill to make one.

Very highly unlikely, as they don't have the skill to make one.

Isn't the head of Apex under house arrest in Hong Kong. I think those cheap tvs you guys bought cost the Chinese gubment about 500 mill:D

CNT backlighting (http://www.digitimes.com/photogallery/ShowPhoto.asp?ID=1896)
8 March 2007


http://www.digitimes.com/Images/2007/03/06/1896_r.jpg


Nano-Proprietary claims that it has developed a carbon nanotube (CNT) electron emission suitable for use as a backlight for large area LCD TVs.

Based on information on the company's website, it has developed a proof of concept that is 65x65mm (3.6-inch diagonal) that utilizes the company's CNTs, which requires an electric field of less than 1 volt/micrometer and achieves 40,000 candela/square meter.

The company has indicated that its technology makes it possible for 32-inch LCD TV backlights to consume power as low as 50-60 watts.

CNT backlighting (http://www.digitimes.com/photogallery/ShowPhoto.asp?ID=1896)
8 March 2007


http://www.digitimes.com/Images/2007/03/06/1896_r.jpg


Nano-Proprietary claims that it has developed a carbon nanotube (CNT) electron emission suitable for use as a backlight for large area LCD TVs.

Based on information on the company's website, it has developed a proof of concept that is 65x65mm (3.6-inch diagonal) that utilizes the company's CNTs, which requires an electric field of less than 1 volt/micrometer and achieves 40,000 candela/square meter.

The company has indicated that its technology makes it possible for 32-inch LCD TV backlights to consume power as low as 50-60 watts.

Thanks, posts 1042 through 1045:D

Very highly unlikely, as they don't have the skill to make one.

Neither does anyone else. At least, not more than one at a time. And a long time between the first and the second. :rolleyes:

Does anybody know what the spectrum spread of the CNT backlight is? Is it comparable to LED or the backlights used now?

Great idea, but if it doesn't have the needed spectrum to provided for the correct color spread needed, and still needs more R&D then I say that it probably will end up like SED, left behind on the top of a large pile of good ideas that never came to be.

Here we ago again, another ill concieved, deficient display technology designed to hoodwink the public. We need the real thing, SED. I don't want any more half- baked, severly flawed display technologies.

SED, to this day, is still the only display technology that meet all the requirements of a perfect display, which seems to be to the chagrin of the SED hating Plasma loving sycophants.

So Auditor, is your tinfoil hat fitted, or does it have an adjustable strap in back?

Does anybody know what the spectrum spread of the CNT backlight is? Is it comparable to LED or the backlights used now?

Great idea, but if it doesn't have the needed spectrum to provided for the correct color spread needed, and still needs more R&D then I say that it probably will end up like SED, left behind on the top of a large pile of good ideas that never came to be.

I'm not an engineer, but I find it interesting that the licensee is Mitsui, as they are deeply involved in Laser backlighting.

I'm not an engineer, but I find it interesting that the licensee is Mitsui, as they are deeply involved in Laser backlighting.

Maybe it's an effort to appear "Green". This seems to be less of a power draw than a laser diode or a plain LED.

BTW, something I have been meaning to ask, Auditor55, what color is the sky in your world?

It may also be a cost issue, as everyone outside the DLP/color wheel world seem to be avoiding LED/laser. I can only think of the Sony 15k 46" Qualia as a set that used either that wasn't DLP. The Samsung DLP and Mitsui's laser DLPs both seem to carry a huge premium over color wheel/high pressure bulb units.

Getting back to the soap opera.................I notice that one of motions NPI has before the judge is to make the on going negotiations with Canon made public. Does that sound like a slimeball tactic, or what?:D

CNT backlighting (http://www.digitimes.com/photogallery/ShowPhoto.asp?ID=1896)
8 March 2007


http://www.digitimes.com/Images/2007/03/06/1896_r.jpg


Nano-Proprietary claims that it has developed a carbon nanotube (CNT) electron emission suitable for use as a backlight for large area LCD TVs.

Based on information on the company's website, it has developed a proof of concept that is 65x65mm (3.6-inch diagonal) that utilizes the company's CNTs, which requires an electric field of less than 1 volt/micrometer and achieves 40,000 candela/square meter.

The company has indicated that its technology makes it possible for 32-inch LCD TV backlights to consume power as low as 50-60 watts.

Who wants some stupid backlight, in of all things, LCD displays. That stupid little company needs to stop developing technology they have no desire to see anyone use.

MEMO to NP:

Give us SED or shut up and go back into obscurity where you came from. :mad:

Getting back to the soap opera.................I notice that one of motions NPI has before the judge is to make the on going negotiations with Canon made public. Does that sound like a slimeball tactic, or what?:D

Perhaps they just want to make sure that people hear the truth. Canon is a huge Corporation, and they have a history of issuing suspect statements on the issue. When their head guy is still saying that they are going to win this case, I think Nano may figure that they better have the public aware of who has the truth on their side.

Who wants some stupid backlight, in of all things, LCD displays.

It would be kinda hard to see an LCD without backlighting.......

Perhaps they just want to make sure that people hear the truth. Canon is a huge Corporation, and they have a history of issuing suspect statements on the issue. When their head guy is still saying that they are going to win this case, I think Nano may figure that they better have the public aware of who has the truth on their side.

I see your point here, but the thing is, when you say the "people" whom do you mean?

Us techno geeks? There is a large part of the population out there that don't have any idea what nano even stands for, much less NPI. Not that most would have a clue as to the technology or even be interested.

I see your point here, but the thing is, when you say the "people" whom do you mean?

Us techno geeks? There is a large part of the population out there that don't have any idea what nano even stands for, much less NPI. Not that most would have a clue as to the technology or even be interested.???

For that matter, there's lots of folks out there that don't even know the difference from analog to digital video...or from SD to HD. There's even a large number of people that buy a HDTV that never subcribe or watch a HD program on TV. Go figure????

I see your point here, but the thing is, when you say the "people" whom do you mean?

Us techno geeks? There is a large part of the population out there that don't have any idea what nano even stands for, much less NPI. Not that most would have a clue as to the technology or even be interested.

Maybe the investment folks and potential jurors(black hats don't sell well in Texas).:D

I see your point here, but the thing is, when you say the "people" whom do you mean?



The same ones that Canon has been directing their public statements to. If you see my point, why are you asking such a pointless question?. :rolleyes:

If Canon walks away from this they take with them all the practical knowledge to produce SED.NPI would be left holding a piece of paper describing a principle and little more.IMO money and more importantly time will prevent another company from licensing SED, after all Canon has been at this for like 10 years IIRC.

I would expect negotiations have included details of Canons experience in trying to produce SED and making it public would free an outside manufacturer to pay NPI for the patent and use Canons knowledge free of charge.

Canon should offer to sell its IP to Nano for, I don't know...maybe a billion dollars.
At least a couple hundred million. :D

Yes. Nano may be trying to increase the value of their patents by "obtaining" Canon's practical knowledge.

SED, FMD, flying cars.....

The same ones that Canon has been directing their public statements to. If you see my point, why are you asking such a pointless question?. :rolleyes:
Seriously, this is only news or of interest to people like us or other companies who would potentially have to compete with SED.

I am kinda happy about this setback for SED. Means my company will have good sales for some time since SED wont cut into the Plasma/LCD market.

Don't want to seem hostile, but the point of the "pointless" question was that the original statement from you seemed pointless, sorry to have confused you.

Seriously, this is only news or of interest to people like us or other companies who would potentially have to compete with SED.

I am kinda happy about this setback for SED. Means my company will have good sales for some time since SED wont cut into the Plasma/LCD market.

Don't want to seem hostile, but the point of the "pointless" question was that the original statement from you seemed pointless, sorry to have confused you.

You said you saw my original point, and now you say it was pointless. Which is it.

Canon has been throwing out a lot of spin, and may be trying to make Nano the fall guy. Nano won in court and is probably asking to have all the court records on the case made public to prevent Canon from playing that spin game. Canon lost, and the records will most likely make them look like the villian. Nano won all along, after Canon kept claiming that they were in the right. I think Nano is trying to show them up, and make them lose face. A very important cultural aspect, not to be overlooked. Nano knows what is in the records, and knows that their hands looks better than Canon's, so why not let us turn all the cards over, and let every one see which one of us wins. Get the point yet!.

I love how some people keep on having faith in Canon, and think that they know what they are doing. They lost the court case, and since they never ever ever have manufactured consumer TVs, where as many electronic corporations have a long history of manufacturing their own lines of TV sets, what makes any one sure that Canon knows what it is doing. It sure can not be confidence based on their long history of making great TV sets. They never have.

You said you saw my original point, and now you say it was pointless. Which is it.

Sorry.

Just saying that unless there is someone out there that is going to take over the SED crusade (maybe Auditor in his garage), who are Nano trying to inform? And you are right, who believes Canon anyhow? Maybe Canon is just spining to keep a couple of banks off their backs, lest they call in loans made for the project.

As far as Nano is concerned, is there any other use for the technology that is now in dispute with Canon? I don't feel that Nano has the money or the resources to develop SED by themselves and they have to have a different market for it or it is like allot of other patents, just a piece of paper gathering dust. Maybe Canon just ticked them off.

Sorry.

Just saying that unless there is someone out there that is going to take over the SED crusade (maybe Auditor in his garage), who are Nano trying to inform? And you are right, who believes Canon anyhow? Maybe Canon is just spining to keep a couple of banks off their backs, lest they call in loans made for the project.

As far as Nano is concerned, is there any other use for the technology that is now in dispute with Canon? I don't feel that Nano has the money or the resources to develop SED by themselves and they have to have a different market for it or it is like allot of other patents, just a piece of paper gathering dust. Maybe Canon just ticked them off.

I think one of the issues for investors with Canon is unused capitol not the lack thereof to develope a new program. This is, despite what many folks believe here, an excellent fit for Canon and I believe they will proceed, regardless of the trial outcome. NPI is anxious to move ashead, as witness to their offer to Canon too give Toshiba the same sweetheart deal that Canon had. Arrogance doesn't always carry the day

The last thing the patent holders want to do is to shut down SED development to market. They would be smart to be nice to Canon and Toshiba and hope to someday collect royalties. Anything else is cutting off their nose to spite their face.

I love how some people keep on having faith in Canon, and think that they know what they are doing. They lost the court case, and since they never ever ever have manufactured consumer TVs, where as many electronic corporations have a long history of manufacturing their own lines of TV sets, what makes any one sure that Canon knows what it is doing. It sure can not be confidence based on their long history of making great TV sets. They never have.

Exactly. I also think Isochroma hit the button w/the face saving scenario. The display market is a tough one to crack and make a profit unless you use $1-a-day cheapo chinese labor. Plasma & LCD video tech advances have pretty much negated even a need for another flat panel tech that has little or no advantages over less expensive competitors. Personally speaking, competition in this area would be great for us consumers and would help drive down current pricing, especially on the high-end 50+" displays. But alas, I am also a realist, and this dog won't hunt, much less get off the porch.

The last thing the patent holders want to do is to shut down SED development to market. They would be smart to be nice to Canon and Toshiba and hope to someday collect royalties. Anything else is cutting off their nose to spite their face.

It may be too late for that ;)

- Rich

It sure can not be confidence based on their long history of making great TV sets. They never have.

No, its confidence in their long history (http://www.canon.com/ir/historical/hist_e.pdf) of making huge profits manufacturing many consumer (http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ConsumerHomePageAct) and industrial (http://www.usa.canon.com/opd/controller?act=OPDCategoryIndexAct&functionid=51) products of at least the complexity of a television.

You can argue Canon has made poor corporate decisions as far as sed is concerned but you can't dismiss a history of innovation, manufacturing and profitability.

Canon will still exist in 12 months sed or not.NPI on the other hand may not.

Lets hope NPI has more faith in Canon than you. ;)

Sorry.

Just saying that unless there is someone out there that is going to take over the SED crusade (maybe Auditor in his garage), who are Nano trying to inform? And you are right, who believes Canon anyhow? Maybe Canon is just spining to keep a couple of banks off their backs, lest they call in loans made for the project.

As far as Nano is concerned, is there any other use for the technology that is now in dispute with Canon? I don't feel that Nano has the money or the resources to develop SED by themselves and they have to have a different market for it or it is like allot of other patents, just a piece of paper gathering dust. Maybe Canon just ticked them off.

Here is something that has nothing to do with Maybe Canon" as you put it. The Court heard all of the evidence and has declared that Canon Ripped Off Nano.

When some one steals from me, I get ticked off. Canon has not brought SED to market. The fact that they brought Toshiba in to help them, shows that they had already realized that the did not have the in house expertise to complete the development cycle. Now, because of Canon's stupid handling of the Nano patent rights, Toshiba has pulled out, and Canon is back to having no development history in TV sets,to help them develop and launch a product in which almost every component would be unique. Hubris at work.

The last thing the patent holders want to do is to shut down SED development to market. They would be smart to be nice to Canon and Toshiba and hope to someday collect royalties. Anything else is cutting off their nose to spite their face.

Or they may realize that the opportunity to take SED to market has passed, and are salvaging what they can, money-wise. Or they may have great hopes for Samsung. Or they know something we don't about developments in Japan.

The one thing we DO know, despite wishful thinking to the contrary, is that we will not see an SED for sale to consumers in the United States in 2007. And probably not in 2008. And probably not ever.

Here is something that has nothing to do with Maybe Canon" as you put it. The Court heard all of the evidence and has declared that Canon Ripped Off Nano.

When some one steals from me, I get ticked off. Canon has not brought SED to market. The fact that they brought Toshiba in to help them, shows that they had already realized that the did not have the in house expertise to complete the development cycle. Now, because of Canon's stupid handling of the Nano patent rights, Toshiba has pulled out, and Canon is back to having no development history in TV sets,to help them develop and launch a product in which almost every component would be unique. Hubris at work.

If Canon was dumb, Nano was dumber. Canon violated some agrement in the license. They did not rip Nano off though because there was nothing to rip off.
As I said before, IMO Nano handled this issue all wrong. They could have reworked the contract with Canon and Toshiba to bring this technology along.
This legal escapade has closed the window of opportunity for SED.

This legal escapade has closed the window of opportunity for SED.

Yes. That's it, succinctly.

It would be kinda hard to see an LCD without backlighting.......

So you get my point. I have enough trouble messing around with the stupid backlight on my LCD.

If Canon was dumb, Nano was dumber. Canon violated some agrement in the license. They did not rip Nano off though because there was nothing to rip off.
As I said before, IMO Nano handled this issue all wrong. They could have reworked the contract with Canon and Toshiba to bring this technology along.
This legal escapade has closed the window of opportunity for SED.

What window are you talking about. Canon never met any of the time line promises that they made over several years. Get real. Canon has not a shred of credibility left, and Nano is not a SED development company. Canon contracted a patent usage from Nano, nothing more, nothing less. Time for everyone to quit trying to pretend that Nano was the SED slayer. Nano had no dealings with Toshiba. Canon did, and Toshiba found out, fairly quickly, that Canon was some one it was better to get the hell away from. Toshiba dropped them like a bad habit, and Nano had to hit them over the head with a Legal two by four, to stop them from violating their contractual agreement. When it came to SED, Canon was all Hubris, and no product.

Here is something that has nothing to do with Maybe Canon" as you put it. The Court heard all of the evidence and has declared that Canon Ripped Off Nano.

When some one steals from me, I get ticked off. Canon has not brought SED to market. The fact that they brought Toshiba in to help them, shows that they had already realized that the did not have the in house expertise to complete the development cycle. Now, because of Canon's stupid handling of the Nano patent rights, Toshiba has pulled out, and Canon is back to having no development history in TV sets,to help them develop and launch a product in which almost every component would be unique. Hubris at work.
Ignoring all of the patent issues, do you really think that Canon brought Tosh in because of their experience in the TV industry, or becuase in case it did not fly, they wanted someone to share the lose?

I agree with some others here when I say that Canon has had allot of success in the CE industry and could have done it by themselves, so why didn't they?

What window are you talking about. Canon never met any of the time line promises that they made over several years. Get real..

My reference to "window" is market place conditions. This legal wrangling consumed time and financial resources in a market with 2 powerfull display technologies, LCD and Plasma. Both are getting better and cheaper with each year. As good as SED may have been, it is not perfect and likely would have been very expensive. Had they devoted their energies to getting something to market the end of last year or even this year, SED may have been an attractive though an expensive alternative given certain weaknesses of LCD and Plasma. Both LCD and Plasma however are making significant strides in fixing their relative shortcomings.
Add to this, OLED seems to be coming along. SED for all the hype it received may never get to the consumer stage. It's purported advantages just a few years ago may not be the case today or in the near future.

[QUOTE=TNG]Ignoring all of the patent issues, do you really think that Canon brought Tosh in because of their experience in the TV industry, or becuase in case it did not fly, they wanted someone to share the lose?

I agree with some others here when I say that Canon has had allot of success in the CE industry and could have done it by themselves, so why didn't they?
/QUOTE]

The reason for the Toshiba allience was two fold. One originally they were going to use a Toshiba CRT plant, when abandoned, to make the sets. They later decided to go ahead and jointly spend 1.4 bill to build a plant, so that manufacturing could be ramped up quickly. The other reason was not marketing or distribution, but Toshiba's background in making TVs. Toshiba was dropped to satisfy NPIs suit. That was a too late occurance.

All those who keep claiming that Canon could have developed and Manufactured SED, on their own. Could have, should have, would have. If wishes were fishes, we would all cast nets in the sea. They tried, and they failed. Case closed. What the hell are you talking about. A Canon SED fantasy league. In the real world, they tried, and didn't get it done. That is reality, Deal with it.

Mods:

Perhaps it is time to unstick this sad thread and let it plummet ?

One can always stick it back when there is actually something to talk about...

could have......except Nano sued them
should have....except Nano sued them
would have.....except Nano sued them

:p

A bit sad to see a good idea dying...but thats life, now lets pray for LED (both organic and inorganic)! :)

A bit sad to see a good idea dying...but thats life, now lets pray for LED (both organic and inorganic)! :)

SED is not dying, its just delayed. You can't hold back the future too long. The technology is here, it will manifest itself and sometime in some form.

could have......except Nano sued them
should have....except Nano sued them
would have.....except Nano sued them

:p

What a stupid backwards little company. They must want us to remain the prison of the PDP paradigm.

Mods:

Perhaps it is time to unstick this sad thread and let it plummet ?

One can always stick it back when there is actually something to talk about...

Why you want to see the thread closed? You don't even have to view the thread.

The last thing the patent holders want to do is to shut down SED development to market. They would be smart to be nice to Canon and Toshiba and hope to someday collect royalties. Anything else is cutting off their nose to spite their face.

Unfortunately that is what it looks like the stupid backwards little company is doing.

I should have known this case was brought in a place like Texas. No wonder we don't SED right now.

I understand that Viacom is suing Youtube, hopefully I will be getting a summons for jury duty in the great state of California(northern district) where we love technological advances.

Again I say this technology will one day be available. You might see Toshiba, Canon and Samsung with new licensing agreements.

Here what a represenative from NPI said.

"We will talk to Canon, Toshiba, Samsung or any interested party regarding SED licensing agreement on a non-exclusive or exclusive basis," Spina said.

SED is not dying, its just delayed. You can't hold back the future too long. The technology is here, it will manifest itself and sometime in some form.

This horse is not dead, we're just not beating it enough! :p :rolleyes:

http://uplink.space.com/attachments/330172-137318-dead_horse_anim.gif



:D

Anyone been to the Toshiba SED site lately?

Sorry, this site has closed

Thank you for using it for a long time. Please continue your favors toward the Toshiba homepage in the future.



:D

http://www.hdtvuk.tv/2007/03/tmos_technology.html

TMOS technology could rival LCD, OLED and plasma displays by 2008
A new display technology currently in prototype form is seeking to take a hold of the TV display market, hoping to rival the likes of LCD, OLED, and plasma technology, claiming simpler construction and better performance.

Time Multiplexed Optical Shutter (TMOS) technology has been developed by UniPixel Displays Inc, and (put as simply as I can) works on a temporal additive colour system.

Existing displays use spatial additive colour, using three closely spaced dots of red, blue and green to produce what the human eye perceives as a single colour. Temporal additive colour works by sending short bursts of red, green and blue through the same dot at a fast enough speed so that eye sees them as a single colour. Different durations of the three colours produce different shades and hues.

Anyone been to the Toshiba SED site lately?



:D


No, No, No. Say it isn't so!. Where will SEDboy55 take his imaginary Toshiba SED set for service. :)

No, No, No. Say it isn't so!. Where will SEDboy55 take his imaginary Toshiba SED set for service. :)

To the invisible SED site?

To the invisible SED site?

No, he can do the repairs & upgrades at home...afterall it's easy, all you do is make it up as you go along.

No, he can do the repairs & upgrades at home...afterall it's easy, all you do is make it up as you go along.

Ah, I guess the invisible tech sent to your home after logging a complaint at the SED site would be too expensive. :D

There will be more SED news in the next 7 to 10 days. That's my WAG:D

http://uplink.space.com/attachments/330172-137318-dead_horse_anim.gif



:D

I was feeling bad enough at cancelling my trip to CES2007. But then I remembered I can always find uplifting SED commentary right here. At least from a few of you.

I really don't know how this whole thing will end but it's not over yet. I'll try to find a picture of a fat lady for my blog if that day comes!

I was feeling bad enough at cancelling my trip to CES2007. But then I remembered I can always find uplifting SED commentary right here. At least from a few of you.

I really don't know how this whole thing will end but it's not over yet. I'll try to find a picture of a fat lady for my blog if that day comes!

There will always be hope for SED, as each day more and more videophiles are becoming increasingly dissatisfied with Plasma and LCD and the demand for a vastly superior display technology like SED with continue to grow. :)

There will always be hope for SED, as each day more and more videophiles are becoming increasingly dissatisfied with Plasma and LCD and the demand for a vastly superior display technology like SED with continue to grow. :)


Sorry, to be kind, this is one of the silliest posts I've ever seen.

First of all, Plasma and LCD continue to get better with every season. Improvements occur all the time - why in such a circumstance would videophiles become increasingly dissatisfied??? Wouldn't just the opposite be true???

Secondly - the tiny minority of people who aren't wowed by today's TV's are not going to create a market for substantially more expensive technology.

SED's dead baby, SED's dead.

There will always be hope for SED, as each day more and more videophiles are becoming increasingly dissatisfied with Plasma and LCD and the demand for a vastly superior display technology like SED with continue to grow. :)
There will always be hope for.... fill in your own dream...and the demand for...fill in your own dream... continue to grow. :rolleyes: :confused: :cool:

Sorry, to be kind, this is one of the silliest posts I've ever seen.

First of all, Plasma and LCD continue to get better with every season. Improvements occur all the time - why in such a circumstance would videophiles become increasingly dissatisfied??? Wouldn't just the opposite be true???

Secondly - the tiny minority of people who aren't wowed by today's TV's are not going to create a market for substantially more expensive technology.

SED's dead baby, SED's dead.

One of traits of nanotube technology, is that it is disruptive. Without changing to nanotube backlighting 40" LCDs will still be 240watt and plasma 400w+. In the future if picture quality is equal, which set would a consumer buy: a set that costs $25 to 50$ per month power consumption, or one that costs $10 per month. Build the efficiency too scale in the entire set with no minimum or maximum size and you have SED, FED, & CNT sets of the future. For manufacturers, wholesalers and retailers, this is a nightmare. For consumers it is the opposite. For someone to be optimistic about the future is not silly and it definitely isn't cynical.:D

One of traits of nanotube technology, is that it is disruptive. Without changing to nanotube backlighting 40" LCDs will still be 240watt and plasma 400w+. In the future if picture quality is equal, which set would a consumer buy: a set that costs $25 to 50$ per month power consumption, or one that costs $10 per month. Build the efficiency too scale in the entire set with no minimum or maximum size and you have SED, FED, & CNT sets of the future. For manufacturers, wholesalers and retailers, this is a nightmare. For consumers it is the opposite. For someone to be optimistic about the future is not silly and it definitely isn't cynical.:D

I think your usage costs are too high.

My buddy has an older 50" Panny plasma (which is probably less efficient) and although the advertised 'peak' power usage is 450W or something like that, he had it on a meter (the local library has them) and when he tested it, he averaged about 220W.

Anyway, even at 400W, you won't get anywhere near $50/month for normal use: (please correct me if my math is wrong)

400W x 3 hours / day x 31 days / month = 37200W = 37.2kW. I don't know how much you pay for hydro by I believe I pay about $0.08/kW but even at $0.20/kW, that's still only $8 (and as mentioned, that's at close to twice the wattage that my friend claims he actually uses). I don't know if that many people AVERAGE much more than 3 hours/day every day on their TV (we will certainly often watch for more than 3 hours in a row but we don't do it every day and there are days when we watch none).

I think your usage costs are too high.

My buddy has an older 50" Panny plasma (which is probably less efficient) and although the advertised 'peak' power usage is 450W or something like that, he had it on a meter (the local library has them) and when he tested it, he averaged about 220W.

Anyway, even at 400W, you won't get anywhere near $50/month for normal use: (please correct me if my math is wrong)

400W x 3 hours / day x 31 days / month = 37200W = 37.2kW. I don't know how much you pay for hydro by I believe I pay about $0.08/kW but even at $0.20/kW, that's still only $8 (and as mentioned, that's at close to twice the wattage that my friend claims he actually uses). I don't know if that many people AVERAGE much more than 3 hours/day every day on their TV (we will certainly often watch for more than 3 hours in a row but we don't do it every day and there are days when we watch none).

That's why I majored in English/history.:D You're right it's probably only a few cents per tv savings. Do you think a cost reduction in manufacture of LCDs of about 20% would be disruptive?

Sorry, to be kind, this is one of the silliest posts I've ever seen.

First of all, Plasma and LCD continue to get better with every season. Improvements occur all the time - why in such a circumstance would videophiles become increasingly dissatisfied??? Wouldn't just the opposite be true???

Secondly - the tiny minority of people who aren't wowed by today's TV's are not going to create a market for substantially more expensive technology.

SED's dead baby, SED's dead.

Plasma has already peaked as a display technology, its not really getting better. The notion that plasma is getting is mostly marketing hype. In fact, Plasma is going backwards in some cases. I cite as proof, the recent introduction of 1080p (which is marketing as well) plasmas from Panasonic and Pioneer, according to many reports, that blacks are inferior to previous 720p sets.

Now to verify what I'm saying, just go into the Plasma forum where you can read many post about the inferior blacks on the more expensive 1080p models as opposed to the previous 720p sets.

I strongly suggest you can go into the Plasma forum as well as other videophile related forums and websites and you find will an ever increasing dissatisfaction with Plasma as well as LCD.

This dissatification among videophiles towards Plasma and LCD is not new, its been brewing since the industry decided to phase out the reference quality CRT in favor of the more thin, sleek, and sexier flat panels displays.

Today, plasma nor LCD, even with all of the alleged improvements, is still not considered "reference" standard by video experts, professionals, and other in the industry.

In my opinion SED is the answer to the defiencies of other display technologies. That is why I remain hopeful that SED will one day be available to professionals as well as consumers in general.

Plasma nor LCD is the future of display, whether you like or not, there is a display technology that is vastly superior to LCD and Plasma and its called SED.

Remember, the cream always rise to the top :)

Please - technology is not going to stop advancing in LCD and Plasma just because you think it is. I'm all for SED - but to think that some tiny franction of extremovideophiles is going to create a new market when LCD's and Plasma get better and cheaper ever year is ludicrous.

Remember, the cream always rise to the top :)

Translated:

It's good to cry over spilt milk. ;)

whether you like or not, there is a display technology that is vastly superior to LCD and Plasma and its called SED. No it's called "in your dreams!"

We will all welcome it with open eyes when it's here but until then, it’s really silly to compare fantasy with reality.

Canon plans appeal (http://yahoo.reuters.com/news/articlehybrid.aspx?storyID=urn:newsml:reuters.com:20070329:M TFH16877_2007-03-29_04-29-08_T235325&type=comktNews&rpc=44)

ouch!! on nano stock today :)

ouch!! on nano stock today :) I wonder if, on its way down, the sinking stock waved to the rising cream. :p

I wonder if, on its way down, the sinking stock waved to the rising cream. :p

Guess I need to change my last post to 'spilt stock' :D

They're appealing to cut or eliminate the damages. Not to manufacture SED.

I looked at this story yesterday and couldn't believe it. And investors bought in. I now know why NPI has asked for negotiations to be made public. If you think you are going to lose a court case and plan to appeal it before it goes to trial, you file a writ before the trial. You don't make a statement as Canon did unless you are still committed to SED and are openly trying to influence NPI, the court system and investors. This is laughable.

Canon plans appeal (http://yahoo.reuters.com/news/articlehybrid.aspx?storyID=urn:newsml:reuters.com:20070329:M TFH16877_2007-03-29_04-29-08_T235325&type=comktNews&rpc=44)

ouch!! on nano stock today :)

That's good news!! If Canon is fighting like this that lets you know how much they believe in SED. Go Canon!!

And of course while Canon has to go through the long drawn out appeals process, most likely to take at least two years to resolve, they can always blame that for having to suspend their SED operations. A very convenient way for them to save face,which is of major cultural importance, in their country.


Just one addtional note: In almost all the whole milk that gets purchased, the Cream never rises to the top. So much for that "Always" nonsense from SED Fantasyboy55 :)

And of course while Canon has to go through the long drawn out appeals process, most likely to take at least two years to resolve, they can always blame that for having to suspend their SED operations. A very convenient way for them to save face,which is of major cultural importance, in their country.


Just one addtional note: In almost all the whole milk that gets purchased, the Cream never rises to the top. So much for that "Always" nonsense from SED Fantasyboy55 :)

Because it was removed at the dairy.:D

SED is homogenized? :D

Some interesting reading on a Nano principle, Zvi Yaniv.Seems like a great guy. ;)

http://www.thecsrgroup.com/news/marketplace.html

http://www.kentdisplays.com/corporate/print/kd05012002.htm

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:eTCdM3eG3i4J:caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl%3Fnavby%3Dsearch%26case%3D/data2/circs/Fed/991012.html+Zvi+Yaniv&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=42&gl=us

Canon have reportedly being secretly working on a different way of producing SED panels without using any of the Nano patent methods. They are supposed to be very pleased with the results, and have actually already started up production of the newly designed panels. They want to establish a very large inventory of the products before entering the retail distribution chain. They want to be sure that they will have sufficient product to satisfy demand leading up to the Summer Olympics, and while waiting for a new plant to come online. They are predicting that the SED panels will not be very much more costly to produce, and distribute than the top of the line Plasma panels.
They plan on demonstrating the new panels, at shows, toward the end of this year. Stay tuned.

You sure picked an interesting day to deliver such unexpected news... :)

The production plant is on the dark side of the moon, and clearing customs is the only remaining problem.

Well, I could not see any reason to sit on the good news. SED has been reworked and reborn.

Well, I could not see any reason to sit on the good news. SED has been reworked and reborn.

I've seen this movie before. It would be great to see another competing video tech in the marketplace as it's all good for consumers, but at this point I'm taking a "wait & see" attitude. This does sound promising though...

lol greenland...april fools!

I've seen this movie before. It would be great to see another competing video tech in the marketplace as it's all good for consumers, but at this point I'm taking a "wait & see" attitude. This does sound promising though...
Just wait until tomorrow though, ;) I bet today’s news will be yesterday’s laugh. :p

Edit: I didn't flip the page and see MM's post. ;) :D He beat me at letting the cat out of the bag... for those that didn't recognize Greens wit.

Just wait until tomorrow though, ;) I bet today’s news will be yesterday’s laugh. :p

Edit: I didn't flip the page and see MM's post. ;) :D He beat me at letting the cat out of the bag... for those that didn't recognize Greens wit.


Geeeez,...har, har,:D

My lips are sealed. I have SED too much already.

Ouch!

Interesting read on SED and the players. Didn't see this posted earlier.

http://www.nanovip.com/node/3021

March 15, 2007

The SED soap opera continues

By Dennis P. Barker
Here it is mid-March 2007, and the SED soap opera continues. We are still in limbo with regards to the relations between Canon and Nano-Proprietary. The controversy swirls around a patent license for flat-panel displays covering surface-conduction electron-emitter displays (SED). These displays appear to offer better images than existing 1080p plasma and LCD displays providing brighter images, clearer images, and utilize less power consumption. I have seen several demos of this superlative technology.

A U.S. court based in Austin, TX ruled in February that Nano-Proprietary could terminate a license agreement that it had for seven years with Canon. Canon had planned on sharing the technology with Toshiba Corp., which was its partner in a flat-panel display joint venture to offer superior SED HDTVs in the U.S. (and possibly the world) market. The court did not address Nano-Proprietary's fraud claims against Canon in the ruling, which will be handled separately so that it can assess the size of damages due to the Nano-Proprietary in April. Obviously, the court would like to see Canon and Nano-Proprietary settle out-of-court, but, as it stands right now, neither side can seem agree on anything.

Reportedly, Nano-Proprietary has tried to meet with Canon to settle this issue, but, apparently, Canon is not responding. Canon believes that the court will eventually reverse itself, and that there will be no monetary damages and the fraud charges will be dismissed. However, it is understood that Canon might be re-thinking its commitment to SED. Canon's Chairman and Chief Executive Fujio Mitarai recently noted in a strategy briefing that he hopes to enter the flat TV market, but is interested in other types of flat displays including organic light-emitting diodes (OLED), which Sony Corp. also has under development. Supposedly, Mitarai as saying Canon is developing OLED technology with another maker and is also open to acquisitions.

On the other hand, if Canon is losing interest in SED, it leaves the door open for another company to come in and develop SED. South Korea's Samsung Electronics has shown an interest in SED technology, which is not surprising. Samsung is a very aggressive electronics giant with the goal of being the number one electronics company in the world. Currently, it offers DLP microdisplay, plasma, LCD, and CRT-based TVs. It plays in every TV arena. So, it's no surprise that it wouldn't want to develop SED technology. The company also realizes that to successfully compete, it needs to develop next-generation technology. It is known that Samsung is exploring Carbon Nanotube (CNT) displays and OLED technology as replacements for current TV technology. So, it's no surprise that it would also pursue SED, if it became available (and it apparently is).

In all of these soap opera proceedings, the big loser appears to be Toshiba. Toshiba set it hopes and dreams on SED. And, those dreams seem to be evaporating before its eyes. While I don't know the extent of their agreement and partnership with Canon, it would seem to me that Toshiba Japan should be negotiating with Nano-Proprietary for its own licensing agreement. Toshiba has already set-up and infrastructure for manufacturing panels in Japan, and then assembling them in the U.S.

Toshiba needs a next-generation display technology to get into the marketplace soon. While they produce excellent DLP microdisplays, they are not an innovator of the technology like Samsung or Mitsubishi is. Toshiba has also retreated from the plasma TV business as well as the CRT TV business. Currently, all of their collective eggs have been forced into LCD. And, I'm not convinced that it's really a good idea. While certainly their Regza LCD TVs look good, there are literally hundred of LCD display companies. How does one compete successfully against Sharp, Westinghouse Digital, Vizio, Sony, Samsung, and others? It was no surprise that Toshiba cancelled its line show this year because it had already introduced its LCD TVs at CES. At the same time, it's facing an uphill battle with their HD DVD. While I believe that HD DVD is superior to Blu-ray in image quality, we have seen from the past (Beta vs. VHS) that the superior format doesn't' always win. So, if Toshiba loses the next-generation optical disc race and has no next-generation displays technology to offer, where does that leave the company?

Stay tuned as the SED soap opera unfolds. We might even cal it "As the SED world churns."

So it looks like Canon is moving on using OLED, no surprise here.

Well sure, as long as Canon keeps moving on to the next thing that is not ready for market, they can always maintain their perfect record of never having been in the Consumer TV production and distribution business.

I wonder if Auditor55 will move on to OLED with canon? The cream always rises to the top...

after reading a little on mr. Zvi Yaniv he actually looks like a really smart guy. knowing his experience and dedication to SED makes me feel a little better about the outcome. there will be a way to bring it to market, although maybe not with Canon which seems to have moved on. the whole thing still stinks and this thread is boring.

after reading a little on mr. Zvi Yaniv he actually looks like a really smart guy. knowing his experience and dedication to SED makes me feel a little better about the outcome.

LOL...I wonder if they search his briefcase before he's allowed to leave the office. ;)

Looking at the article in the post above left me with this impression.....

If Samsung get's involved in SED.... that very well could change the whole picture. They have very deep pockets indeed, they have the infrastructure and they need something to trump Panasonic and Sony. If they can make a deal with Nano and buy the technology from Cannon (or go joint deal), then who know's what might happen. And if SED turns out to be all that it's cracked up to be, watch out.

THEN.... Auditor 55 will own this board!

after reading a little on mr. Zvi Yaniv he actually looks like a really smart guy. knowing his experience and dedication to SED makes me feel a little better about the outcome. there will be a way to bring it to market, although maybe not with Canon which seems to have moved on. the whole thing still stinks and this thread is boring.

I am very sorry that you find the thread to be boring. I will do my best to provide some entertainment for you.

Log on to this thread, in the next week or so, to catch my online Ventriloquism and Shadow Puppets performances. That is sure to snap you out of your state of ennui.

I am very sorry that you find the thread to be boring. I will do my best to provide some entertainment for you.

Log on to this thread, in the next week or so, to catch my online Ventriloquism and Shadow Puppets performances. That is sure to snap you out of your state of ennui.Gee.... and I was hoping for an encore of that mime performance. Hmmmm... maybe that wasn’t you.

Gee.... and I was hoping for an encore of that mime performance. Hmmmm... maybe that wasn’t you.


I am sorry, no more of those performances. My lips are sealed, every since Canon told me to Mime my own business. That is what they SED to me.

Pick a card. Don't show it to me. It is OK for you to show it to the rest of the thread viewers:

There will always be hope for SED, as each day more and more videophiles are becoming increasingly dissatisfied with Plasma and LCD and the demand for a vastly superior display technology like SED with continue to grow. :)

Got a source for your claims about plasma and LCD dissatisfaction?

Also, you say "the demand for a vastly superior display technology like SED with continue to grow". Sorry, but I'd take a 13" B&W set over vaporware (long term vaporware, at that) any day.

Got a source for your claims about plasma and LCD dissatisfaction?

Also, you say "the demand for a vastly superior display technology like SED with continue to grow". Sorry, but I'd take a 13" B&W set over vaporware (long term vaporware, at that) any day.

Just read the threads in the Plasma forum and on other videophile related websites.

I'll take hope over the coming of a superior display technology (SED) over the discouragement of what seem like an arrested development (PDP).

Here it is mid-March 2007, and the SED soap opera continues. We are still in limbo with regards to the relations between Canon and Nano-Proprietary. The controversy swirls around a patent license for flat-panel displays covering surface-conduction electron-emitter displays (SED). These displays appear to offer better images than existing 1080p plasma and LCD displays providing brighter images, clearer images, and utilize less power consumption. I have seen several demos of this superlative technology.

As you can see from this gentlemen's testimony, SED kicks 1080p Plasma and LCD all in their collective backsides.


Folks, SED is not going away. As I said to you before, the genie has been let out of the bottle, people have seen this SUPERLATIVE :D technology, you can't bottle that genie up and hope it just goes away.

Looking at the article in the post above left me with this impression.....

If Samsung get's involved in SED.... that very well could change the whole picture. They have very deep pockets indeed, they have the infrastructure and they need something to trump Panasonic and Sony. If they can make a deal with Nano and buy the technology from Cannon (or go joint deal), then who know's what might happen. And if SED turns out to be all that it's cracked up to be, watch out.

THEN.... Auditor 55 will own this board!

If Samsung get their hands on SED, watch the likes of Panasonic, Pioneer and Fujitsu going in to ruins. SED destroys those other technologies and they damn well know it. They are hoping SED never makes it.

Alas, there is no Easter for SED. :D

I hope auditor55 is young enough to see his dream of a SED in every house become a reality in 25-30 years :D

So, what about Sony's new FED (http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,117485-page,1/article.html)?

In the meantime, I wonder from where I can steal one of those prototype SED displays... ;)

So, what about Sony's new FED (http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,117485-page,1/article.html)?

In the meantime, I wonder from where I can steal one of those prototype SED displays... ;)

Quoting a link from the distant past will put you in the twilite zone for a future prediction. Three years is almost a lifetime in video tech. But 3 months ago at CES the Sony booth was chock full of OLED's, which will give you more of an idea just where the Sony R&D money is being spent these days. For me, OLED's will be the next big jump in new video tech, and are in fact already being produced in the market for tiny screen applications.

Quoting a link from the distant past will put you in the twilite zone for a future prediction. Three years is almost a lifetime in video tech. But 3 months ago at CES the Sony booth was chock full of OLED's, which will give you more of an idea just where the Sony R&D money is being spent these days. For me, OLED's will be the next big jump in new video tech, and are in fact already being produced in the market for tiny screen applications.
Sorry, I should have posted this FED link (http://www.electronista.com/articles/07/04/09/sony.fed.displays/) from today:

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070409/fed00.jpg

Thanks Bugs, go take a look on the OLED thread as Isochroma has also added something new from that Tokyo show. Competition is good.

I started a FED thread here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=831767).

SED
FED
LED
OLED

Arrgggh!

Wonder if Sony is dealing with NPI, also?:D

Sorry, I should have posted this FED link (http://www.electronista.com/articles/07/04/09/sony.fed.displays/) from today:

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070409/fed00.jpg

Broadcast industry availability 2009 consumer sometime in the future, from a news release, today.

Broadcast industry availability 2009 consumer sometime in the future, from a news release, today.All in tiny screen sizes? :D

All in tiny screen sizes? :D
Sure. I'm no insider, but my guess if they can build them to rival some of the pro CRTs in quality, with 1080p resolution, they'd be quite popular in broadcast.

And like I said in the other thread: I'd buy one of 26 inchers in a heartbeat as a combo (secondary) TV and computer monitor, if it was a significant improvement over LCD.

That is, if they ever become non-vapourware and don't cost a zillion dollars. :p

What's funny is, they've got a few people believing SED is superior, even "vastly superior."

What a joke! They've never established manufacturability in the real world, never gotten even a low rate initial production line going, never demonstrated they've licked the emitter erosion problem, or evenness of the image on a mass produced display, have not established any real lifetime for the thing- and never allowed anyone to test it in the real world. And we won't even discuss affordability.

And they never even proved that even their hand crafted prototypes are superior. No one independently has confirmed their claims. No independent expert has measured anything on those displays. Almost anything could be made to look good for short periods of time under selected circumstances. Impressing the marks at a show is insufficient evidence of "superiority."

They just might look great- for a year. Less a few dead spots, and just ignore the bright spots and those colored dots that won't go away. Just look at how great the black levels are!

There's no evidence to support any of their claims. Just carefully set up demos under highly controlled conditions. Yet they have a prophet or 2 wandering around. True believers that have FAITH. The (non) product might be a dead end, totally unworkable in the real world. And based on the evidence, that is the most likely situation. It isn't just the lawsuit that has kept SED out of the marketplace.

It's a lot of inflated claims, smoke and mirrors. And there's a "prophet" born every minute.

What's funny is, they've got a few people believing SED is superior, even "vastly superior."

What a joke! They've never established manufacturability in the real world, never gotten even a low rate initial production line going, never demonstrated they've licked the emitter erosion problem, or evenness of the image on a mass produced display, have not established any real lifetime for the thing- and never allowed anyone to test it in the real world. And we won't even discuss affordability.

And they never even proved that even their hand crafted prototypes are superior. No one independently has confirmed their claims. No independent expert has measured anything on those displays. Almost anything could be made to look good for short periods of time under selected circumstances. Impressing the marks at a show is insufficient evidence of "superiority."

They just might look great- for a year. Less a few dead spots, and just ignore the bright spots and those colored dots that won't go away. Just look at how great the black levels are!

There's no evidence to support any of their claims. Just carefully set up demos under highly controlled conditions. Yet they have a prophet or 2 wandering around. True believers that have FAITH. The (non) product might be a dead end, totally unworkable in the real world. And based on the evidence, that is the most likely situation. It isn't just the lawsuit that has kept SED out of the marketplace.

It's a lot of inflated claims, smoke and mirrors. And there's a "prophet" born every minute.
Well, there's no question about their superiority for that "short time" in terms of pure blacks and stuff like that. Basically, it is impossible for current LCDs to display what the prototype SEDs could display.

Manufacturing yields, erosion issues, and cost are all important, and ultimately seem (with the lawsuit) to have to led to SED's demise (almost) but they are different from pure image quality. The bottom line is that no LCD has ever been able to replicate what those SEDs did, even if they were under controlled conditions.

The key point here is that we should not necessarily be satisified with what we have. SED aimed for the flat panel holy grail and failed, but that doesn't mean we should be satisfied with say LCDs or older generation plasmas. I have been wanting a 40-47" flat panel TV for a very long time, but have held off. No, I wasn't waiting specifically for SED, but was waiting for something that could give me the image quality that I was after, in 1080p, under 50". The LCDs aren't there yet, and only now does it seem that plasma has possibly reached close to that level.

Well, there's no question about their superiority for that "short time" in terms of pure blacks and stuff like that. Basically, it is impossible for current LCDs to display what the prototype SEDs could display.

Manufacturing yields, erosion issues, and cost are all important, and ultimately seem (with the lawsuit) to have to led to SED's demise (almost) but they are different from pure image quality. The bottom line is that no LCD has ever been able to replicate what those SEDs did, even if they were under controlled conditions.

Sure. For the short term, under controlled conditions, and by seaman's eye, not measurements. But that's not how we watch TV. Different signals, programs, lighting, etc. And over years, not minutes. And it has to actually exist.



The key point here is that we should not necessarily be satisified with what we have. SED aimed for the flat panel holy grail and failed, but that doesn't mean we should be satisfied with say LCDs or older generation plasmas.

Of course not. But if we insist something is "so" when it ain't, we're not likely to pursue other options, are we? SED, a form of FED, is dead. Will Samsung or someone riding in on a white horse resurrect it? Maybe. Probably not. Technology moves on. OLED has claims as good as SED and is potentially much cheaper, lighter and thinner. And the product actually exists. There may be other technologies that will succeed also.

I figure after the CRT finally disappears from store shelves, plasmas are next. OLED may well replace LCD as well. Then maybe the "next big thing" seizes the market. Me- I'm not waiting for the holosuite - or SED. My LCoS RPTV will tide me over quite nicely while waiting for the technology to shake out.

My point is that people have argued for years that I should give up my CRT, because SED is dead and so I should get an LCD or a plasma. That argument never made sense to me. I'd rather just keep my CRT for the time being.

As for the above, as far as I'm concerned, you're just substituting SED with OLED. For all practical purposes, for the time being OLED is just as much vapourware as SED.

P.S. I don't do stringent measurements or whatever to watch TV. I just sit and watch the TV. If I like it, I like it.

If it ain't broke, and you're happy with it, don't fix/replace it. I would not recommend someone buy a projection CRT today (& probably not even a direct view), but I certainly don't see any reason to dispose of a perfectly good one. Not while other technologies are getting better and cheaper all the time.

Not a single SED has been sold or even loaned to an independent reviewer. Millions of OLED screens are in use. They are in watches, cell phones, PDAs, etc. The product actually exists. They now need to solve the technological problems with scaling it up, and that appears well underway. And there are a lot of companies working on it, not just one.

Raw or fried? Or does it depend upon the bug?

I dunno. My usual handle was taken, and when I chose this name I was just back from a trip in China.

They sell deep-fried cicada pupae and deep-fried locusts on the street. I didn't try them, but I did try some dried worm treat. It wasn't very good. And a friend of mine just sent me a bag of medicinal ants he found in the airport. Yes a whole bag of ants, by mail. I'm glad that customs didn't open the bag. :p

P.S. I'm gonna take a look at that new Pioneer plasma around X-mas, but I am thinking now I'm going to buy in 2009 after I get a new house. That will give some time for the 1080p 120 Hz market to drop in price, and maybe we'll see some OLEDs by then too. I'm not too confident about FED by 2009.

I'm not convinced 120 Hz does much (72 Hz I can see- 24 fps*3). 8ms probably means more. But one thing is for sure- toys will be better a year from now, and even better 2 years from now!

Kodak was supposed to build an OLED plant and ship in 2008, but I believe the 2010-2012 estimates are more realistic, for screens 40" & up. But what do I know? Just guessing.

Were they chocolate covered, to help the medicine go down? :p

I'm not convinced 120 Hz does much (72 Hz I can see- 24 fps*3). 8ms probably means more. But one thing is for sure- toys will be better a year from now, and even better 2 years from now!
Not 120 particularly for 120, but just because that's what a lot of manufacturers seem to be standardizing on. It's certainly the easiest, since as you know it's a multiple of 24/30/60.

No chocolate. Too bad the last gourmet tasting was in 2005 (http://www2.ville.montreal.qc.ca/insectarium/en/index.php?section=24&intParent=3)...

I'd buy one of 26 inchers in a heartbeat as a combo (secondary) TV and computer monitor, if it was a significant improvement over LCD.

That is, if they ever become non-vapourware and don't cost a zillion dollars. :pRight, but if that 26" display is going to cost $10,000... I'd rather buy a 60"+ 1080p PDP instead.

Growing up in the 15" 4:3 CRT monitor days... 21"+ 16:9 HD FP LCD computer displays look pretty awesome to me. ;)

Right, but if that 26" display is going to cost $10,000... I'd rather buy a 60"+ 1080p PDP instead.
I don't know why people keep saying this. I know you're half-joking, but if someone wants a 26" display, they're not going to buy a 60". I encounter this all the time, strangely enough: Person A: I want to get a 32" LCD. Person B: Why don't you get a 55" LCoS projection TV instead for about the same price? :confused:

I'm not convinced 120 Hz does much (72 Hz I can see- 24 fps*3). 8ms probably means more. But one thing is for sure- toys will be better a year from now, and even better 2 years from now!

Kodak was supposed to build an OLED plant and ship in 2008, but I believe the 2010-2012 estimates are more realistic, for screens 40" & up. But what do I know? Just guessing.

Were they chocolate covered, to help the medicine go down? :p

I'm not an engineer, but I believe the 60/120Hz is for electrical needss in this country. In Europe they are 50/100Hz sets.
At an excellent side by side demo in January on a slow pan high color and brightness, the 120Hz was significantly better. Strangely ther was no motion blur on either set but resolution, detail brightness appeared better on the 120Hz set.

I'm not an engineer, but I believe the 60/120Hz is for electrical needss in this country. In Europe they are 50/100Hz sets.
At an excellent side by side demo in January on a slow pan high color and brightness, the 120Hz was significantly better. Strangely ther was no motion blur on either set but resolution, detail brightness appeared better on the 120Hz set.

120Hz helps with motion blur and judder.

From your experience it seems that the "moving picture resolution" was increased which 120Hz should do.

link (http://www.advanced-pdp.jp/english/pdp/point/07.html)

Isn't that a plasma manufacturers site?

http://www.cnet.com.au/tvs/0,239035250,240036500,00.htm#3

I don't know why people keep saying this. I know you're half-joking, but if someone wants a 26" display, they're not going to buy a 60". I encounter this all the time, strangely enough: Person A: I want to get a 32" LCD. Person B: Why don't you get a 55" LCoS projection TV instead for about the same price? :confused:You make a good point; I guess everyone doesn't want a BIG screen TV. However, the idea of paying 10 grand for a 26" display kind of shocks me.

The replacement bulb people came up with the idea.

Toshiba apparently announced plans to sell a 30-inch OLED in 2009.

They've already moved on?

If you have image stabilizing binoculars 30-inch OLED can give you an immersive experience.

If you have image stabilizing binoculars 30-inch OLED can give you an immersive experience.
:D

For all practical purposes, for the time being OLED is just as much vapourware as SED.
Maybe, but there are some big players that are getting into the OLED bandwagon. Recently at my work a large chemical company was inquiring into equipment for production of OLED panels. There is interest in OLED and allot of money is being dumped into the research right now. The people that were interested in our equipment were not doing it for R&D purposes, they were serious about large scale production. Maybe for backlight panels?

I thought OLED didn't need backlights. Isnt it the point that the material emits light on its own?

Main obstacles are scaling to competitive sizes and useful life out of them.

I still really like the SED technology, but since it will probably never come out, I'm looking forward to LED LCDs coming out soon like the Samsung 81 Series. These Samsungs look great imo and they should trounce even the new Pioneers that are coming out!

wco81, you are correct; OLEDs don't need backlights. They emit their own light when the organic chemicals are fed an electrical current.

But that's not what TNG was referring to: many companies are going to use OLEDs as backlights for other displays, such as LCD.

If OLED is Organic when are we going to see the first horror movie where the OLEDs bcome alive?

Will Plasma reflections kill alive OLEDS?

What if they eat LCD black crush?

When they get up to 30-inches will direct-view CRT be down to 3 inches?

If OLED is Organic when are we going to see the first horror movie where the OLEDs bcome alive?

They already have. They became lawyers and killed off SED. :p :p :p

The only one that can stop them is auditor55!

keepin' it alive...in 2009?


No SED? Don't worry here comes the FED! (http://www.behardware.com/news/8746/no-sed-don-t-worry-here-comes-the-fed.html)


:(

I still really like the SED technology, but since it will probably never come out, I'm looking forward to LED LCDs coming out soon like the Samsung 81 Series. These Samsungs look great imo and they should trounce even the new Pioneers that are coming out!

No way those Samsungs will beat the new Super Plasmas......of course there is that thing called pricing. :D

I still really like the SED technology, but since it will probably never come out, I'm looking forward to LED LCDs coming out soon like the Samsung 81 Series. These Samsungs look great imo and they should trounce even the new Pioneers that are coming out!

And the Samsung or Pioneers that come out after those LEDs will trounce that as well. :)

No way those Samsungs will beat the new Super Plasmas......of course there is that thing called pricing. :D

Don't be so quick to think the "super" plasmas will have the best PQ. The Samsung 81s have the potential to have true blacks....just as black as the Pios. Also the whites will be even better than the plasmas. The ansi contrast is superior on the 81s. We can't say anything definate until we see both tvs. ;)

Don't be so quick to think the "super" plasmas will have the best PQ. The Samsung 81s have the potential to have true blacks....just as black as the Pios. Also the whites will be even better than the plasmas. The ansi contrast is superior on the 81s. We can't say anything definate until we see both tvs. ;)

Cheers. But when you're talking Pioneer vs. Samsung, I've found the earlier has been the victor so far.

I own 2 Samsungs and one Pioneer.

Cheers. But when you're talking Pioneer vs. Samsung, I've found the earlier has been the victor so far.

I own 2 Samsungs and one Pioneer.

Damn, you have 3 flat panel tvs?

Well certainly this generation the Pios are on top, but things could change. Maybe Samsung will get it right this time. SED is sadly pretty much history. Again, time will tell. :rolleyes:

Thar she blows!:D

http://www.cnet.com.au/tvs/0,239035250,339273826,00.htm

"Canon and Nano-Proprietary have been in settlement negotiations over the case for the last several weeks. A new licensing agreement between the two companies, therefore, could develop."


KEEPING THE DREAM ALIVE :D :D

Damn, you have 3 flat panel tvs?

Well certainly this generation the Pios are on top, but things could change. Maybe Samsung will get it right this time. SED is sadly pretty much history. Again, time will tell. :rolleyes:

I can't wait for Pio to come out with those sets so folks can see for themselves how fradulent Pioneer's claims really are.

This it not new technology my friends, don't be fooled!! Nothing but reglazed, recooked, repackaged, already inferior to SED, plasma technology.

I don't care if SED nevers makes it to the market, I know the truth, I can't be fooled.

Canon hiking investments for SED production (http://sst.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=ONART&PUBLICATION_ID=5&ARTICLE_ID=290529&C=BIZNW)
20 April 2007

April 20, 2007 - Canon Anelva Corp., a provider of manufacturing equipment for semiconductors and display panels, plans to boost production capacity at its Fuji factory, Yamanashi Prefecture, by 80% over the next three years to get ready to make equipment for display panels based on surface conduction electron emitter display (SED) technology, according to the Nikkei Business Daily.

A fourth building at the Canon subsidiary's Fuji facility for cutting and welding steel and aluminum parts will be online by August; cleanroom and other facility expansions will bring the total investment to about 2 billion yen (US $16.9 million).

Canon Anelva posted 20% higher sales of 59.6 billion yen ($502.5 million) in its most recent fiscal year, and projects another >17% growth in sales this year, the paper noted.

I wish them luck especially because in 3 years LCD and Plasma will have made significant strides!

It's mainly in the electron emitters: A technical comparison between SED and FED (http://www.digitaltvdesignline.com/howto/advancedvideodisplay/199200539)

I can't wait for Pio to come out with those sets so folks can see for themselves how fradulent Pioneer's claims really are.

This it not new technology my friends, don't be fooled!! Nothing but reglazed, recooked, repackaged, already inferior to SED, plasma technology.

I don't care if SED nevers makes it to the market, I know the truth, I can't be fooled.

I share your sentiment. I'm highly skeptical of Pio's claims too.

I can't wait for Pio to come out with those sets so folks can see for themselves how fradulent Pioneer's claims really are.

This it not new technology my friends, don't be fooled!! Nothing but reglazed, recooked, repackaged, already inferior to SED, plasma technology.

I don't care if SED nevers makes it to the market, I know the truth, I can't be fooled.

You have never seen a SED display, in person, so that proves that you have been easily fooled. You have never seen the Pioneer Plasma that you are providing your review of, so you are easily fooled. You are just fooling yourself.

Only a fool would be posting their comparative reviews of two products that they have never laid eyes on!.

...

You need to understand the technology behind SED to realize that SED is almost perfect as a display technology. That Pioneer plasma is all smoke and mirrors. Plasma can never touch SED performance.


You need to understand that you are not Auditor55, because that is who I addressed my remarks to. But you have just put yourself in the same absurd position as him, since SED is not being produced, and therefore it can not be used to compare to a product that is being produced. Now you and Auditor55 can carry on in your SED fantasy land. A real product coming to market trumps all those that are not.

....

SED is a pipe dream so why dream, of'course it is a exciting technology, 100:000:1 ratio, we all want super blacks but it is not a reality yet. Sure SED would probably be awesome, the best, it dont take a genius to figure that out. But unless you have it in the home all one can do is pipe dream that it is the greatest.

Great news , today. The jury arrived at a verdict awarding npi only the 5.5 mill already received. This saves Canon face, so that I wouldn't expect an appeal of the verdict. A few weeks ago, Canon announced investments in upgrades to allow production models before this year is out. Waiting for a licensing agreement between the 2 companies and we may see these puppies in our lifetime.:D

Great news , today. The jury arrived at a verdict awarding npi only the 5.5 mill already received. This saves Canon face, so that I wouldn't expect an appeal of the verdict. A few weeks ago, Canon announced investments in upgrades to allow production models before this year is out. Waiting for a licensing agreement between the 2 companies and we may see these puppies in our lifetime.:D


Sounds good. I will wait. :D

Auditor and now Auditor Jr(* (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10455133&&#post10455133)) like to cherry-pick for the reviews which trumpet SED beyond all comparison, then trash-dive for the ones which find the most ambivalent things to say about the 8th gen Pios. Providing sober, equivocal assessments of each isn't in their analytical vocabulary.

Super supposed specs and non-production, demo-controlled panel models are hardly a reasonable basis from which one should be able to form unwaveringly confident pre-judgments of one technology over another. Some people are able to bet and bet hard on SED superiority with nary a doubt in their minds. Such are the true believers you find in the cult flocks of Jim Jones and the like. Better that their piety is trained on a/v hobbies, I suppose.

All the unhappiness would end if some just stuck with the King, CRT.

I can't wait for Pio to come out with those sets so folks can see for themselves how fradulent Pioneer's claims really are.

This it not new technology my friends, don't be fooled!! Nothing but reglazed, recooked, repackaged, already inferior to SED, plasma technology.

I don't care if SED nevers makes it to the market, I know the truth, I can't be fooled.

You & Sampo55 should schedule an Enterprise Holodeck vacation together to work out all bugs & design flaws on the new SED display. There's no limit to what the imagination can dream-up on those 3D forrays. Check back w/us in a few years...

There are no bugs or design flaws with sed :rolleyes:

Pioneer: Eight Generations of Flat Panel HDTV engineering, development, production, and distribution experience.

Canon: Zero generations of any TV production, period.

Game, Set, and Match to Pioneer. :cool:

....

Canon: Zero generations of any TV production, period

It would most likely be a Toshiba.

Eight generations of worse than CRT black levels? Eight generations of inaccurate colors? Eight generations of bad motion detail? Eight generations of bad displays? The only reason Canon is working on SED is that lcd or plasma isn't good enough for Canon or their customers.


And still Pioneer product sells. Canon has no product to sell. All the rest of your prattle is mere idle chit-chat, fully of sound and fury, signifying nothing. :rolleyes:

Pioneer is introducing it's latest AV products, including the 8G Plasma, and announcing it's release date and MSRP, on Monday, May 7th. 2007 in Rome, Italy.

Canon, like Generalisimo Francisco Franco, is still Dead.

.

...

Pioneer's product isn't selling very well if you take a look at their revenues. Canon is making a lot of profit with their quality products, so they have money to "blow". Canon needs displays to make production chain from cameras to displays complete.

"Canon needs displays". Since they are not making their own, tell them they can buy some from Pioneer. :D :D :D

/* picture poster beating this thread with a club */

Why....won't....you....die! :D

Simpo is suffering from delusions of grandeur. Now he know all the inside corporate deliberations of Canon. Sure he does!. What a Maroon!. :rolleyes:

5:24 PM today...
:)
AUSTIN, TX -- (MARKET WIRE) -- May 03, 2007 -- Nano-Proprietary, Inc. (OTCBB: NNPP) today announced that the jury has reached a verdict in its litigation against Canon, Inc. In its verdict, the jury decided that Nano-Proprietary was due no additional damages beyond those already received, which includes the right to keep the $5.5 million that it originally received and termination of the original license agreement.

"While we are disappointed by the jury's verdict, we need to keep in mind that we already had the most important victory in the case when the Court validated our termination of Canon's license as a result of their material breach of the contract," said Tom Bijou, Chief Executive officer of Nano-Proprietary, Inc. "We were also pleased that during the trial, Canon confirmed its plans to move forward with its SED TV and continue to believe that the advent of field emission display televisions will be a signal event for Nano-Proprietary. We made a significant gesture to Canon during the course of the trial that we hope will provide a framework of cooperation and negotiation for the future. Nothing about today's verdict changes the fact that we have significant intellectual property that we believe will have to be licensed by anybody, including Canon, that wishes to sell televisions based on electron emissions in the broad geographical areas of the world where our IP is in effect. The vast majority of our revenue forecast for 2007 has little to do with televisions. Our growth in the materials and sensor business continues to be one of the drivers of our future."

Interesting SED. I just wonder how fast Canon will "move forward" with its plans (or what the plans are).

Canon will not be 'moving forward' with any plans, because Canon has lost the right to use Nano Proprietary's IP, which is an integral component of the SED device as it is currently constituted, in that physical parts of the SED design are implementations of that IP.

In order to 'move forward' they would have to replace the portion(s) of the device which uses NanoP IP with something else, or obtain a new license for the necessary IP from NP. The first option could take a long time, at best; the second is anyone's guess, but if could be done, it would be pretty costly.

i was under the impression canon was moving to FED which is different from SED and not under NP's patents...

i was under the impression canon was moving to FED which is different from SED and not under NP's patents...

I think SED, FED, and CNT all fall under some of NPI's basic patents.

@borf: do you have any evidence to back up your 'impression' that Canon will use FED in their product? If they do, they won't be able to call it 'SED' anymore.

Canon will not be 'moving forward' with any plans, because Canon has lost the right to use Nano Proprietary's IP, which is an integral component of the SED device as it is currently constituted, in that physical parts of the SED design are implementations of that IP.

In order to 'move forward' they would have to replace the portion(s) of the device which uses NanoP IP with something else, or obtain a new license for the necessary IP from NP. The first option could take a long time, at best; the second is anyone's guess, but if could be done, it would be pretty costly.

Yeah, right. NPI will teach Canon a lesson and refuse to license SED. This was never about money, after all.

As NPI has already said, the SED IP is a small part of their portfolio. In Canon's case, it the 'meat' of the SED device. Thus in any potential negotation, the balance of power is very much in the hands of NPI.

So what are their revenues apart from the $5 millions patent license payment from Canon?

"...and termination of the original license agreement...."


Canon "needs" NPI much more than NPI needs Canon. Other technologies, of which OLED is only one, are stealing a march on SED.

And BTW, there are no REAL reviews of SED. They've NEVER allowed a unit to be looked at independently and out of Canon's immediate control.

do you have any evidence to back up your 'impression' that Canon will use FED in their product?

the "field emission display" in SED TV guy's post refers to SED which is a type of FED. my bad.

We were also pleased that during the trial, Canon confirmed its plans to move forward with its SED TV

Awesome. Perhaps I'll be able to change my plans for saving for a new projector back to saving for a SED TV.

Some additional information:

In a quote from Canon in the Watch Impress article on the lawsuit verdict ( http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20070507/sed.htm ), they say their plans to begin production of SED TVs this year are unchanged.

Awesome. Perhaps I'll be able to change my plans for saving for a new projector back to saving for a SED TV.

Having you been reading this thread? Unless your saving timetables work on glacial time, you'd be best to keep your projector shopping options on the front burners. and rear burners, for that matter.

Yeah, yeah, I know all about the unfulfilled promises of SED. But I said PERHAPS I'll be able to change my plans back. If come fall and it still looks like they won't be able to get any out by the end of the year here in Japan, then I'll probably buy the projector.

God forbid I should be optimistic about SED after some good news finally comes :rolleyes:

But "perhaps" is still waaay too optimistic, in this case. Even if hypothetically they got the go-ahead to begin implementing all the production details TODAY, given all the myriad processes that would entail, you wouldn't see these anywhere close to the end of this year. I'm just sayin'.

Great News!!

In light of all of this wonderful SED news being posted, my dream to see the future of display technology materialize remains alive. :D

"...and termination of the original license agreement...."


Canon "needs" NPI much more than NPI needs Canon. Other technologies, of which OLED is only one, are stealing a march on SED.

And BTW, there are no REAL reviews of SED. They've NEVER allowed a unit to be looked at independently and out of Canon's immediate control.

What does it matter, SED is the future of display technology. Even through all of those bumps in the road, it looks as though SED is still going to emerge. I have no doubt in my mind that we will see SED sets displayed at the 2008 CES.

So to all of the pretenders beware. Don't dare try to fool the public with a reglossed, repackaged obsolete display technology under guise of it being a new technology just so you can suck more $$$ out of some gullible A/V enthusiast who really can't see through your bogus marketing campaign.

Remember this folks, SED in its initial stages is vastly superior to LCD & PDP. I doubt very seriously if you will ever see PDP or LCD advance to the what SED already is. Up against SED, I doubt if you will see any companies coming to the 2008 CES touting some old obsolete technology as a SED Killer.

Am I the only one who finds himself wondering what it would be like to interact with Auditor55 in real life?; as a coworker, boss or subordinate, or having him for a neighbor, relative, etc.

The mind reels.

But "perhaps" is still waaay too optimistic, in this case. Even if hypothetically they got the go-ahead to begin implementing all the production details TODAY, given all the myriad processes that would entail, you wouldn't see these anywhere close to the end of this year. I'm just sayin'.
I frankly could care less if you think my plans are too optimistic, troll.

You're wrong anyways. They've been readying the production details for years as they originally planned to have it out long ago, and their recent statements indicated that they believed they were going to win this lawsuit while it was going on so they were obviously not just waiting around.

Am I the only one who finds himself wondering what it would be like to interact with Auditor55 in real life?; as a coworker, boss or subordinate, or having him for a neighbor, relative, etc.

The mind reels.

I assume that it would be much like trying to cope with an hallucinating Warthog, without any of it's charisma. :)

....

I frankly could care less if you think my plans are too optimistic, troll.

You're wrong anyways. They've been readying the production details for years as they originally planned to have it out long ago, and their recent statements indicated that they believed they were going to win this lawsuit while it was going on so they were obviously not just waiting around.

Right you are. Canon has perfected a Way Back Machine, so they are going to be able to have one in your hands by the end of 2004. :)

But what they don't have, is a license. Maybe they figure they can proceed without one, and win in court? :rolleyes:

Bad for negotiations to announce you WILL ship a product, while you are trying to obtain a license to do so. That price just keeps going up.

Looks like OLED will triumph over obsolete old technology like SED. :p

They didn't say they would ship them, just that their plans to begin production are unchanged.

They need a license to sell them, not to prepare them for mass-production. Nanotech has said they'd be willing to re-negotiate, and there were reports of negotiations going on during the lawsuit as well.

So some little POS company in Texas put the brakes on SED so they could extort $5.5 mil out of Canon, how sweet.

So some little POS company in Texas put the brakes on SED so they could extort $5.5 mil out of Canon, how sweet.

Way to go. Try not to let the facts get in the way. Do some research and get the facts straight before posting such clueless drivel. Here is a clue for you. Look up how Canon tried to Let Toshiba use the patent without authorization to do so. That is where they lost in court. Nano tried to settle with them on the Toshiba issue, but Canon was too arrogant to do so. That will get you started, now do some leg work, and get the rest of the facts for yourself. Then come back with some informed comments.

....

Way to go. Try not to let the facts get in the way. Do some research and get the facts straight before posting such clueless drivel. Here is a clue for you. Look up how Canon tried to Let Toshiba use the patent without authorization to do so. That is where they lost in court. Nano tried to settle with them on the Toshiba issue, but Canon was too arrogant to do so. That will get you started, now do some leg work, and get the rest of the facts for yourself. Then come back with some informed comments.

....

OK here is some facts.

As per TeamXbox:

SED: Nano's Fraud Claims Against Canon Dismissed
By: César A. Berardini - "Cesar"
May. 7th, 2007 4:18 pm

Canon announced today that the trial of the case brought against it by Nano-Proprietary, Inc. relating to flat-panel SED televisions concluded on May 3, 2007 in Austin, Texas. Since no SED product every shipped to the market, Nano-Proprietary's fraud claims against Canon were dismissed and the Japanese company does not have to pay any additional damages to Nano-Proprietary other than the price of the license.

Back in February, U.S. District Judge Sam Sparks issued his ruling against Canon in the patent dispute with Nano-Proprietary, saying that Canon violated the license agreement it had with Nano-Proprietary. The verdict allowed Nano-Proprietary to retain the original $5.5 million purchase price for that license. Now Canon intends to appeal the Court's previous determination and re-negotiate a new deal with Nano.

Surface-conduction Electron-emitter Display (SED) is a new type of flat-panel display technology that utilizes the collision of electrons against a phosphor-coated screen to emit light, similar to a cathode ray tube but, instead of having one electron beam hitting the whole screen, each pixel has its own emitter. It’s like every pixel of a SED display is a miniature CRT, resulting in a discrete arrangement that will allow SED screens to behave like a digital display such as DLP.

As a result, SED has all the advantages of cathode ray tube (brightness and contrast levels, viewing angle) and none of the drawbacks of current flat panel display technologies.

SED technology was created through the merging of Canon's proprietary electron-emission and micro-fabrication technologies with Toshiba's CRT expertise and mass-production technologies for LCD and semiconductors.

Nano-Proprietary argued that it has a license deal with Canon, but not with Toshiba. For that reason, it went to court to claim that Canon violated the license agreement it had with them.