Official SED NEWS & Technology Thread Part 2! [Text View]

aud19

10-12-06, 05:26 PM

So who's going to go through and get all the actual valuable info from that other thread?! :eek:

Just realized I might be able to help a bit on that front.... I've got a collection/summary of links etc.... give me a minute.

Some of these links are old so forgive me if they don't all work:

SED and HD-DVD news (http://www.eet.com/sys/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleId=25600557)

http://www.eetimes.com/at/lae/news/OEG20031205S0034

http://www.eet.com/sys/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleId=47205034

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,118836,pg,1,RSS,RSS,00.asp

http://www.pcworld.idg.com.au/index.php/id;986006331;fp;2;fpid;1

http://www.guidetohometheater.com/news/101804ceatec/

http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews/20041227_094933.html

http://www.monitor4u.com/english/news/cont.asp?idx=1002&contdiv=New%20Tech

http://news.com.com/Carbon+TVs+to+edge+out+liquid+crystal%2C+plasma/2100-1041_3-5512225.html?tag=nefd.top

http://www.canon.com/technology/detail/device/sed_display/

http://www.pcadvisor.co.uk/index.cfm?go=news.view&news=4428

http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000150026155/

Technical Paper (http://www.k-ids.or.kr/science/conference/session_B/b4.23.pdf)

A PQ comparison of PDP vs. SED vs. LCD. Left : PDP Middle : SED Right : LCD
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20040914/sed08.jpg
http://www.phileweb.com/news/photo/200409/0SED-MIDORI_big.jpg
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20040914/sed01.jpg
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20040914/sed03.jpg
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20040914/sed04.jpg
http://neasia.nikkeibp.com/image2/nea0412_FPD2fig1.jpg

From the From the Consumer Technology Retail Week (CTRW) newsletter: (http://ga1.org/ctrw/notice-description.tcl?newsletter_id=1198072)

Toshiba announced it would have SED (Surface Conduction Electron-Emitter Display) displays in Q1 2006. Toshiba demonstrated a 36-inch, 720p SED display at CES, but said its goal is to come out of the gate with a 50-inch 1080p panel in Q1 2006 and price it competitively to a similarly sized plasma or LCD display.

Toshiba developed SED with Canon, and the SED technology along with HD DVD will be a lynchpin to Toshiba's strategy going forward.

Toshiba claims SED delivers better blacks than plasma or LCD and can offer and faster response times that will eliminate high-motion artifacts. The latter appeared especially true on Toshiba's demo unit at CES.

http://neasia.nikkeibp.com.hk/neasia/000003

SED panels are entering the TV market. SED image quality is attracting considerable interest; meanwhile, Canon and Toshiba are confident about their cost competitiveness...

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/bettersan.htm

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/strangesan.htm

http://toob.typepad.com/content/2005/07/sed_to_start_vo.html

http://www.forbes.com/infoimaging/feeds/infoimaging/2005/06/21/infoimagingcahners_2005_06_21_eng-cahners_eng-cahners_092319_1557203246241339353.html

http://neasia.nikkeibp.com/neasia/001588

The performance of the SED panel exhibited by the two firms this time was significantly higher than that of the panel shown in October 2004. The contrast ratio (dim environment), for example, has been improved from 8600:1 to 100k:1, and peak luminance from 300cd/m2 to 400cd/m2. As a member of Toshiba's staff explained, "We will not begin volume production with the display performance of this panel. Display performance will be improved even further by that time. We expect to begin volume production as planned in August 2005." The developers are clearly confident that panel performance will be improved and volume production launched on schedule.

Estimated SED production:

http://www.fpdisplay.com/News_Images/200561493459.jpg

Canon to Invest 20.8 Bln Yen in Flat Panel R&D Center (Update1)
Aug. 22 (Bloomberg) -- Canon Inc., the world's biggest maker of photocopiers, will invest 20.8 billion yen ($189 million) to open a research center next July to develop cheaper production technology for flat panel displays used in televisions.

The center will have 150 employees and be set up near an existing factory in Hiratsuka, about 50 kilometers (31 miles) south of Tokyo, Canon said in a faxed release. Research will focus on surface conduction electron emitter, or SED, displays, which Tokyo-based Canon has been developing with Toshiba Corp.

``Price competition for displays is becoming more severe and we need to develop equipment that can cut costs,'' Canon President Fujio Mitarai said at a news conference.

Canon and Toshiba are investing 180 billion yen over two years to mass produce the displays, which face competition from liquid crystal and plasma display televisions that have been on the market longer. Toshiba is phasing out production of plasma TVs to make room for the SEDs, and rivals such as Fujitsu Ltd. and NEC Corp. have sold their flat-panel business as prices decline.

Trial output of the new panels started at Canon's Hiratsuka this month as scheduled and ``is doing well,'' Mitarai said today, without giving details.

Mass production of SEDs will start at 15,000 panels a month in early 2007 and increase to as many as 75,000 displays by the end of that year, Canon and Toshiba said when they announced the investment plan last September.

and:

http://www.prad.de/en/news/shownews398.html

http://neasia.nikkeibp.com/neasia/002048

SED Manufacturing Methods Revealed

SID 2005 offered a host of new technology announcements, including the method for manufacturing SED panels, as well as new backlight technologies for LCD panels.

At last a portion of the technologies used to manufacture surface-conduction electron-emitter display (SED) panels, currently under development by Canon Inc of Japan and Toshiba Corp of Japan, has been revealed. The joint venture between the two, SED Inc of Japan, presented a paper on manufacturing methods used for SED panel electron emitters, at the Society for Information Display (SID) 2005 display conference and exhibition held in Boston from May 22 to 27, 2005. The paper stressed the cost competitiveness of the technology. Volume production of panels was slated to start in August 2005, while Toshiba has made the decision to site a volume production fab at its Himeji Plant, to start operation in January 2007.

The SID 2005 event also offered a host of new technology announcements related to liquid crystal display (LCD) panels, which are experiencing steady growth in the flat-screen TV market. A variety of approaches were covered for issues such as power consumption, motion visibility and gradation characteristics. According to one engineer at an LCD panel manufacturer, "Now that SED panels are almost here, with their high image quality evaluation, the bar has been raised quite a bit in the development competition." A number of technologies dealing with expansion of the range of color reproduction and integration of peripheral components, two areas where LCD panels excel, were also presented (Fig 1).

Participants also showed considerable interest in next-generation technologies such as bendable displays and a 40-inch organic electroluminescent (EL) panel.

Electron Emitter

The strong points of the SED panel are more than the excellent image quality, as evidenced by the high contrast ratio and motion visibility on a par with that of cathode ray tubes (CRT). Canon and Toshiba, the two key developers, appear confident that SEDs are fully cost competitive with other displays already in the flat-screen TV market, such as LCD and plasma display panels (PDP). The two firms agree that the manufacturing method to be used in volume production is the major reason for this - which is why so many engineers were keenly interested in the announcements on SED panel manufacturing made at SID 2005.

The core of the manufacturing method used for the electron emitter is the forming of an electron emitter gap, without using semiconductor processes such as photolithography.

The electron emitter releases the electrons that cause the phosphors to emit light, and is a key component in determining SED panel performance. There is one emitter per sub-pixel, making it equivalent to the thin-film transistor (TFT) in LCD panels. It has been known for some time that the electron emitter has a tiny nm-sized gap to release electrons.

This time the presenters showed a cross-section of the electron emitter, revealing that a tiny gap only 4nm to 6nm in size is formed in the carbon deposited on the surface of the device film (Fig 2). The method used to manufacture this gap was also revealed, as a combination of two processes: conductance forming and conductance activation (Fig 3).

In conductance forming, pulsed voltage is used to create tiny gaps in the PdO (palladium oxide) device film printed onto the electrodes using inkjet technology. Organic gas is then introduced into the process chamber while pulsed voltage is continued in a process called conductance activation. These processes are executed continuously in a vacuum.

Conductance forming creates sub-micron class gaps in the device film, and conductance activation causes these gaps to reach the 4nm to 6nm range. Conductance activation causes the gaps to narrow because, according to Eiji Yamaguchi, senior general manager, Product Development & Design Center, Product Technology Headquarters at SED Inc, "The organic gas breaks down under hot CVD, producing carbon molecules, which are deposited on the surface of the device film." In other words, conductance activation creates a carbon thinfilm, as shown in the cross-sectional photograph of the electron emitter. This thinfilm is only 30nm to 50nm thick.

Deposition, Evaporation

Conductance activation creates the narrow 4nm to 6nm gaps, defining the characteristics of the electron emitter required for use in the SED panel. The narrower the gap, the greater the electric field density around the gap when drive voltage is applied, and the greater the device current (tunnel current through the gap), as shown in Fig 3b.

The higher device current means that, of the total, relatively more discharge current flows to the phosphors. According to SED Inc's Yamaguchi, "While the device current isn't zero prior to activation, it is extremely low, and there is essentially no discharge current."

Activation causes the device current to increase to a certain level, where it stabilizes. In other words, the gaps narrow because of activation, but finally settle down to a certain size, which happens to be 4nm to 6nm in this case. Yamaguchi explained that this happens because the deposition and evaporation of the carbon molecules reaches a balanced state.

This balanced state can be controlled by organic gas concentration and the voltage input to the device film. By controlling the equilibrium between deposition and evaporation, engineers can control the nm-size gaps. The firm has not disclosed details of the organic gas used for activation, but Katsumi Komiya, director, Product Technology Headquarters and deputy senior group executive at SED Inc pointed out, "It is not a special gas."

Cheap, as Promised

Now that some details of the manufacturing method are known, it can be seen that the glass substrate on the electron emitter side can be made with some technologies providing relatively low cost. Wiring patterns can be screen-printed onto the glass substrate, and then the device film formed with inkjet technology. Organic gas is introduced into the process chamber while the device film is conducting to create the gaps (Fig 3a).

SED Inc is confident about the manufacturing method. "No doubt engineers in the field thought we were making the electron emitters with photolithography or some other complex process. Probably few of them will believe that we can form nm-sized gaps, with good repeatability, using only simple processes like blowing a fuse. I think now that some of the details of the manufacturing process have been revealed, they'll understand how we can do it so cheaply," said SED Inc's Komiya.

The reactions of engineers to SED Inc's presentation seems to split into two major camps, one recognizing the intriguing points of the manufacturing method, and the other stressing that cost estimation, including yield, is simply impossible until volume production actually starts.

Creating the 4nm to 6nm gaps makes it possible to generate ample electrons from a low drive voltage of only about a dozen volts. The technology eliminates the need for a driver IC capable of withstanding high voltages, as is required with PDP. This fact also helps keep costs down.

Reliability

SED Inc also mentioned the characteristics of the latest electron emitter, such as the fact that the emission current achieves a density of 30mA/cm2 for an acceleration voltage of 10kV. The firm commented that the electron emission efficiency, which is the ratio of device current to emission current, has surpassed 3%. The prototype shown at CEATEC Japan 2004, held in October 2004, was said to be a bit over 1%.

Data on the reliability (life) of the electron emitter was also disclosed. Even after 60,000 hours of accelerated test, current density for the emission current dropped only 10%, backing up existing claims that the SED panel life will be determined by the phosphors, not the electron emitters.

Canon and Toshiba were planning to further improve brightness in preparation for panel volume production, hoping to achieve 500cd/m2 by the volume-production start date of August 2005. Recent prototypes already boasted a peak intensity of 400cd/m2. Researchers intended to achieve the improvement by enhancing the characteristics of the electron emitter. As Komiya explained, "We are making good progress identifying the process parameters that maximize device current."

The firm plans to start volume production for 50-inch class panels. "We will be installing equipment capable of manufacturing panels for 50-inch class sets into the Canon Hiratsuka Plant," revealed Komiya.

by Takuya Otani

hoodlum

10-12-06, 05:38 PM

This is an old but good link on SED Manufacturing.

SED Manufacturing Methods Revealed (http://neasia.nikkeibp.com/neasia/002048)

aud19

10-12-06, 06:33 PM

Links Part 2

http://img.engadget.com/common/images/2768866118820643.JPG?0.9827624381521298
They showed off some really hot 36-inch SED display prototypes, which besides registering an average of half the metered power consumption of similar sized LCD and plasma TVs, featured a totally independent viewing angles and a 100,000:1 contrast ratio. It was kind of crazy, when the screen went black it was like the whole panel disappeared.

Translated article:
http://translate.google.com/translate?sourceid=navclient-menuext&hl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ewatch%2Eimpress%2Eco%2Ejp%2Fav%2Fdocs%2 F20051005%2Fdg51%2Ehtm

These pics help illustrate the excellent off-axis viewing performance of SED:
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20051005/dg51_06.jpg
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20051005/dg51_07.jpg

The first pic shows the stage setup with an HD camera feed going to a plasma or LCD (not sure, the translation isn't clear) in the second pic and an SED in the third pic.
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20051005/dg51_08.jpg
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20051005/dg51_09.jpg
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20051005/dg51_10.jpg

The article also has info about the Pioneer and Panasonic PDP 1080p prototypes that was hopefully closely translated and summarized here with additional SED info also.

SED:
- prototype screens are prone to light reflections
- should be better almost everywhere compared to LCD/plasma
- should even be superior in some aspects to CRT
- first displays will be 55"
- production being 2006, probably high prices
- mass production 2007, falling prices
-Canon is planning to also produce smaller SED computer monitors in late 06 at comparable to LCD prices

Panasonic 50" 1080p prototype:
- noticably worse shadow detail compared to 65" 1080p model
- noticably worse shadow detail compared to 50" 768p model
- release date still undecided

Pioneer 50" 1080p prototype:
- prototype can't use single side drive right now
- shadow detail etc almost similar to 5060
- red color needs some minor tweaking
- overall noticably better than the Panasonic 50" 1080p prototype
- release planned for soccer world cup 2006

Here's some nice pics illustrating the black level differences in the three technologies :P
http://www.hardware.fr/medias/photos_news/00/14/IMG0014585.jpg
http://www.hardware.fr/medias/photos_news/00/14/IMG0014581.jpg
http://www.hardware.fr/medias/photos_news/00/14/IMG0014582.jpg

http://videosystems.com/e-newsletters/SED_TV/

Popular Science have awarded the Canon/Toshiba SED technology with the "Best of What’s New 2005 award"

http://www.hdbeat.com/2005/11/16/sed-made-best-of-whats-new/

http://gear.ign.com/articles/679/679235p1.html

http://gearmedia.ign.com/gear/image/article/679/679235/ces-2006-toshibas-plasmalcd-killer-20060105074351658-000.jpg

http://gearmedia.ign.com/gear/image/article/679/679235/ces-2006-toshibas-plasmalcd-killer-20060105074419031.jpg

http://www.engadget.com/2006/01/08/sed-up-close-and-personal/

The SED display sets were 32-inches showing a 720p pic, but the production units later this year will be 55-inches in full 1080p. Even with the the 720p source material during the 12-minute presentation, the SED picture rivaled, or even exceeded some of the 1080p displays we scanned this week. The demo highlighted features like brightness, contrast, depth and color. Probably the best way to describe something this visual is to think back to when you first saw HDTV. Remember the impact it had on you and the jump you saw in picture quality? That's what SED feels like; it's like making the jump from SDTV to HDTV all over again. It's that good.

SED manufacturing methods revealed:

http://neasia.nikkeibp.com/neasia/002048

There is an online SED (flash) video demo and an online (flash) interview with Canon's Director of Marketing.

"Also, according to Michael Zorich, Canon’s Director of Marketing, SED’s will first be available in Japan in limited quantities and then will be available throughout the world beginning in 2007... Another couple notes from Michael: screen size is virtually unlimited as long as they can maintain the integrity of the glass (think 100″+), SED has better viewing angles than any other display technology currently out there, and the first SED sets will be 55″ and native 1080p."

taken from
http://www.hdtvhelponline.com/blog/2006/01/20/sed-view-a-flash-demo.html
(full disclosure: my buddy runs the blog)

If you want to see an interview with Canon's Director of Marketing re: SED then use this link:
http://www.dlmag.com/video.php?type=flash&fileid=CES2006-Canon-interview-480-h264384K_Stream

If you want to view Canon's SED demo then use this link:
http://www.dlmag.com/video.php?type=flash&fileid=CES2006-Canon-SED-Demo-480-h264384K_Stream

aud19

10-12-06, 06:35 PM

Links Part 3

This from gaming site IGN's coverage re: SED and CES '06, three posts:

"The best tech at the Consumer Electronics Show 2006 was Toshiba/Canon's SED television. The companies jointly debuted the new type of display, which is neither plasma nor LCD, at the big event, and everyone who saw it was pretty well amazed. On the first day of CES I found myself huddled together with a dozen others in a dark room that was illuminated only by three brightly lit 42" SEDs. The TVs, by the way, look exactly like the one below. A pretty spiffy design, actually. Note that these are prototypes:

I was prepared to be underwhelmed, to be honest. I had already seen so much at CES that was either "blah" or, worse, "meh." But to my surprise, I was astonished at the perfect picture these babies generate.

A really quickie TV breakdown. CRTs -- the big, boxy televisions of yesteryear -- are even by today's standards favored amongst videophiles because they have the best contrast ratios, which translates to deeper blacks and more vivid, realistic colors. Plasmas and LCDs lose about 200 pounds of physical TV, which is nice, but they have up until recently really lacked where contrast ratios and response times are concerned. To be specific, blacks on LCDs and plasmas tend to look almost gray and refresh rates -- especially on the latter -- can create a ghosting, blurring effect, which is bad. SED is a merging of CRT picture quality with plasma/LCD design -- what I like to call the very best of both worlds."

**

"The prototype SED displays on-hand at CES 2006 were absolutely spectacular. I'm going to separate individual words with periods in order to stress a point. Pay attention now because I hardly ever do this. SED. Is. The. Freakin'. Future.

Consider that my 50" Panasonic plasma -- which, by the way, I adore -- has a contrast ratio of 3000:1. Today's cutting-edge flat panels have upped the ratio to 4000:1. SEDs, by comparison, sport a contrast ratio of 100,000: 1. Not a typo. One-hundred thousand to one. The result? Blacks so deep that they look even better than any CRT I've seen. Toshiba/Canon showed us video designed to demonstrate the way in which SED handles grayscale situations. Even in dark environments, it's entirely possible to make out different degrees of blackness -- which is something that is rarely possible on LCD or plasma. For instance, a boat floated through a lake in darkness. Everything was black, but I could still clearly see the lake shimmering and reflecting, just as I could make out the boat. Faintly and realistically. I may as well have been there. Demonstrations showing off SED brightness, color and motion particulars were every bit as impressive.

I should note that every IGN editor I made watch the demo walked out of the room convinced that SED is the best thing ever. And it will be. This is serious tech and it's not going away. It's not a fad. It's not a niche. It's going to be big. Toshiba and Canon believe so strongly in SED that they have together invested nearly $4 billion into the next-generation display type. That's a lot of cash for a product that hasn't even hit retailers yet. The companies earlier this year formed SED, Inc. and have established a factory in western Japan to produce the TVs.

Neither Toshiba nor Canon would commit to a release time frame or price structure for SED at CES 2006. That said, the companies did note that SED sets will be available before the end of the year and reports abound suggest that the tech will be competitively priced against plasma and LCD.

Although the prototype displays I saw at CES were only 42" in size and running in 720p, the final sets will start at 55" and support 1080p. Hurray. If ever there was a TV to match the PS3, this will be it."

**

"I have to say that I wasn't overly impressed by much of what I saw at the show. Sure, there was a ton of cool technology, but almost all of it was to be expected so there was an almost total lack of surprises. Blu-ray and HD-DVD looked great, everyone's new plasmas and other digital sets looked better than last year's, and so on and so forth, but I expected every second of it.

Really, the only two things that surprised and impressed me were Toshiba's SED demo and Dolby's 14.1 concept clip. The SED demonstration was simply astonishing and it's easily the highlight of the show for me. I can't wait to see these things when they go into production and actually have increased image quality over what I've seen."

February 23, 2006 - Satoshi Niikura, executive vice president at Toshiba digital media network division and general manager of the TV division, stated yesterday "The launch of SED TVs, planned for this spring, is likely to be delayed, as we are in trouble purchasing panels sufficiently due to production is still in the pilot stage,- according to a report from DisplayBank. Canon plans to have its own branded SED TV, which would initiate Canon's participation in the TV business. Since the only source of SED panels is SED Inc., the Toshiba-Canon JV founded to do the manufacturing, Canon's TV introduction is also delayed.

Video clip:

http://www.dlmag.com/video.php?type=flash&fileid=CES2006-Canon-SED-Demo-480-h264384K_Stream

http://tvs.consumerelectronicsnet.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=36718

http://today.reuters.com/business/newsArticle.aspx?type=technology&storyID=nT343273

http://www.monitor4u.co.kr/english/news/cont.asp?idx=1253&contdiv=

Fujii describes the SED TV''s picture quality as "having more potential than any other TV panel technology," and expects the pricing to receive "a 10-20% premium over the price of PDP and LCD TVs." On the other hand, to realize a panel with the SED''s genuine picture quality and a cost no more than a 10-20% premium over PDP and LCD TV prices, "The Hiratsuka pilot line is not productive enough," he said.

http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/sedtech.html

http://www.displaybank.com/eng2004/news/index.php?chk_date=2006-05-12

aud19

10-12-06, 06:35 PM

Links Part 4

Toshiba to Launch SED TV in 4Q 2007

Toshiba Corp. has unveiled its blueprint for SED (surface conduction electron-emitter display) rollout in an announcement of the mid-to-long-term business plan until 2008.

Because SED features lower material costs than LCD, the manufacturing costs, depreciated by facility costs, can be reduced. The company is currently swinging into action to prepare full mass production.

The company plans to start the initial mass production of SED panels at the conventional plant in Hiratsuka City, Kanagawa prefecture, in July 2007, with the size of 55-inch, and then bring the world's first SED TVs to the market from the fourth quarter of 2007. Full production in volume will be performed in the Himeji line from early 2008, and the sales of SED TV sets will target the Beijing Olympics in 2008, according to the company.

http://avzombie.com/blog/2006/05/23/toshiba-pledges-massive-investment-in-sed/

http://www.tvtechnology.com/hd_notebook/one.php?id=781

http://gear.ign.com/articles/732/732563p1.html

http://news.com.com/2100-1041_3-6122022.html?part=rss&tag=6122022&subj=news

http://news.com.com/Toshiba+unveils+sizes%2C+cost+goals+for+SED+TVs/2100-1041_3-6122031.html?tag=nefd.top

CEATEC JAPAN 2006 10/3/2006

Some actual 55" SED demo units rather than the 34" units they were showing last year!

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20061003/ceat1_02.jpg

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20061003/ceat1_03.jpg

http://news.com.com/2300-1041_3-6122147-7.html?tag=ne.gall.pg

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/docs/20061003/ceat5_04.jpg

SED Revs Up CEATEC

By Steve Sechrist

October 4, 2006

If your looking for the biggest buzz at Japan's CEATEC this year, go no further than the Canon/Toshiba SED booth in Hall 1 at this massive precursor to the January Consumer Electronics Show. Here, the Surface-conduction Electron-emitter Display (SED), which was conspicuously absent from SID and other display technology venues this year, is being shown in a 55-inch model.

Lines begin forming a good 40 minutes to 1 hr. before the closed-door presentation, and that's the line to get tickets. There is yet another line to see the demonstration.

To my knowledge, no one who has seen the SED technology up front and close denies the display prowess. And the specs support this. The 55-inch model shown publicly for the first time here yesterday includes a 1920 x 1080 display resolution boasting 50,000:1 contrast at 450 cd/m2 brightness at a less than 1ms response time. Yutaka Sakuraba, SEDs deputy senior general manager for product development and design claims true CRT like performance from the flat panel display; something he said no other display technology can even approach.

Possibly true, but the company has yet to demonstrate they can produce these results in mass quantities and perhaps more importantly, at a price point competitive with rival LCD and PDP flat screens. Adding fuel to doubting display analyst crowd is the company's long delay in bringing the product to market-or even full production.

For his part, Sakuraba said flat panel market conditions, including significant price erosion in the space, forced a re-visit of product development plans including cost-down and ramp models more than once. " It's been a planning nightmare for the team but we believe we are on track for full production in the 2008 time frame." he said. "We're looking at the broader view and mass migration to DTV by 2011 when digital TV signals become the standard and all analog goes away." Sakuraba continued.

The company will spend the first half of 2007 perfecting its prototype process in Hitatsuka, Japan where the 55-inch units shown at CEATEC were produced. The company plans to be in serial-production by July-07 with a 55-inch line. Then, it will move to full production at a former Toshiba CRT factory located in Himaji, (Hyogo prefecture) Japan by the beginning of 2008.

Sakuraba emphasized all equipment used to build the new displays in the company's prototype factory was developed in-house leveraging the technology strengths of both partners. For example, Canon is supplying critical ink-jet technology in applying the palladium-oxide and carbon compound emitter layer. So the company is charged not only with developing the process, but building the tools to manufacture the technology as well.

Make no mistake, what these two companies are attempting is no less than a display technology paradigm shift in the face of LCD and PDP flat panel dominance - the result of billions of R&D and capacity investment dollars and ballooning output fueling accelerated price declines which continually spur demand for these traditional flat panels. But the company is bullish on SED display superiority, pouring development funds and resources into the project. And if the growing crowds here at CEATEC portend the future, the SED image is one certainly worth waiting for. The question is: will this wait ever be rewarded? --SS

http://mediablog.mail2web.com/gadgetmaniac/media/get_file.media?filename=96042.jpg&folder=2308&account_id=2235&width=100000

markrubin

10-12-06, 06:58 PM

Felgar, hoodlum, aud19

Thank you

sometimes it's best to just start fresh :)

Auditor55

10-12-06, 07:20 PM

Just tremendous SED information you guys have provided.

Thanks!! :D

xb1032

10-12-06, 09:56 PM

Great fresh start! The old thread was pretty much filled with comments of vaporware. It's nice to actually discuss what could be. SED is definitely exciting. Whether it's SED, Laser Displays, or New panel type plasmas I think most of us A/V'ers here are longing for deeper black levels, richer colors, and just an overall improved picture. I personally prefers plasmas PQ best now but know there is definitely room for improvement.

Ken Ross

10-12-06, 10:36 PM

Kampfer

10-12-06, 11:08 PM

1 little question what LCD and Plasma were they using at the show. Also are the specs for the SED's final? Since they mention the release of the sets in 1 year, I figure Plasma and LCD has another year to grow and drop their price.

(where's Toshiba going to get all the R/D back from SED and HD-DVD???)

mrmike

10-13-06, 09:46 AM

The article's author states that the black levels of SEDs looked better than any CRT he'd ever seen. Now please explain to me how this is possible when CRTs have black levels that can't get any blacker....as in zero light emissions. Sounds kind of like 'infinity plus one'. ;)

I would think that SED could provide point/pixel brightness far greater than CRT without bloom, effectively increasing the apparent contrast ratio. Also, there is apparently less point bleed, allowing for higher on/off differences between adjacent areas. But that's just a guess based on how the two techs work.

Platon

10-13-06, 10:28 AM

(where's Toshiba going to get all the R/D back from SED and HD-DVD???)

If HDDVD becomes the king of the next gen formats and SED becomes that next de facto tech for flat screens, the question would be what would they do with all the money. It is a gamble and as with all gambles there is a risk it might not pay of...

Auditor55

10-14-06, 06:08 PM

If HDDVD becomes the king of the next gen formats and SED becomes that next de facto tech for flat screens, the question would be what would they do with all the money. It is a gamble and as with all gambles there is a risk it might not pay of...

Its good gamble :D

pduncan

10-16-06, 06:39 AM

Funny......

Not that the Forum has split in two, this one being for news about SED.... it has become remarkably quite.

aud19

10-16-06, 01:03 PM

Funny......

Not that the Forum has split in two, this one being for news about SED.... it has become remarkably quite.

I imagine it will be mostly that way between now and CES.

SED TV Guy

10-17-06, 01:57 PM

Thanks for all the work posting all the great links and quotes.

Larry Hutchinson

10-17-06, 02:27 PM

The article's author states that the black levels of SEDs looked better than any CRT he'd ever seen. Now please explain to me how this is possible when CRTs have black levels that can't get any blacker....as in zero light emissions. Sounds kind of like 'infinity plus one'. ;)

Perhaps in a CRT, light from bright areas can bounce around within the tube and illuminate the dark areas. Or perhaps there can be bounces in the thick face glass.

Can't happen (at least no very far) on a flat panel.

aud19

10-17-06, 02:43 PM

Some other CEATEC reports / SED news:

http://www.fortwayne.com/mld/newssentinel/living/15773565.htm

http://www.betanews.com/article/Canon_to_Produce_SED_TVs_by_2008/1159909154

http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,127365-c,tv/article.html

rogo

10-17-06, 02:47 PM

orogogus

10-17-06, 04:12 PM

"Perhaps in a CRT, light from bright areas can bounce around within the tube and illuminate the dark areas."

Not really, no. Measured black levels on CRTs are infinitesimal. And while ANSI contrast is poor on CRTs vs. basically any digital technology other than older LCDs, that's due to brightness on the high end, not blackness on the low end.

Hurray for spec wars and contrast ratios that have 'burn your eyes out' brightness top ends. So pointless when you have to dial it back down anyway... give me better low blacks and shadow detail and worry less about non ANSI CR anyday I say. I hope SED can deliver here (someday... maybe :D ).

aud19

10-17-06, 04:32 PM

Hurray for spec wars and contrast ratios that have 'burn your eyes out' brightness top ends. So pointless when you have to dial it back down anyway... give me better low blacks and shadow detail and worry less about non ANSI CR anyday I say. I hope SED can deliver here (someday... maybe :D ).

My guess is that SED outperforms CRT on measured ANSI contrast, as Rogo referred to, give the "appearance" of better blacks over traditional CRT on material that isn't full field off. I would wager their full field off measurements are quite similar.

As for peak brightness being blinding as your eluding to, from everything I've read while capable of decent light output, they're far from blinding like some current displays. Their impressive contrast numbers come more from their ability to display true black (with actual shadow detail), not just peak light output. It's actually the main selling point as far as I can tell, so you needn't worry ;)

Auditor55

10-17-06, 05:17 PM

My guess is that SED outperforms CRT on measured ANSI contrast, as Rogo referred to, give the "appearance" of better blacks over traditional CRT on material that isn't full field off. I would wager their full field off measurements are quite similar.

As for peak brightness being blinding as your eluding to, from everything I've read while capable of decent light output, they're far from blinding like some current displays. Their impressive contrast numbers come more from their ability to display true black (with actual shadow detail), not just peak light output. It's actually the main selling point as far as I can tell, so you needn't worry ;)

And that is why strongly look forward to the introduction of SED.

Artwood

10-18-06, 06:14 PM

Moderator

[deleted]

rogo

10-18-06, 07:16 PM

Ken Ross

10-18-06, 07:43 PM

I would think that SED could provide point/pixel brightness far greater than CRT without bloom, effectively increasing the apparent contrast ratio. Also, there is apparently less point bleed, allowing for higher on/off differences between adjacent areas. But that's just a guess based on how the two techs work.

I was actually referencing the specific point made by the author that SED blacks were better than CRT blacks. It's impossible of course. ;)

Auditor55

10-19-06, 01:13 PM

I was actually referencing the specific point made by the author that SED blacks were better than CRT blacks. It's impossible of course. ;)

Nothing is impossible with SED. :D

Auditor55

10-19-06, 01:20 PM

I'm desperate to get this thead to page 2 because page 1, while helpful, is kind of out of control with pictures and slow download times... So let me say that I think $3000 is going to be the sweet spot for 50-52" TVs at the time SED ships -- today the leading brands MSRP up to $5000 or so for Sony.

At 55 inches, SED is going to be "almost" as big as the 57s and 58s while, which are going to be around $5000 at SEDs into...

Just some food for thought.

Those displays might be cheaper at the time of SED's arrival and they better because who's going to want to buy one after seeing SED.

Again I advise, buy cheap now, don't get an overpriced plasma or LCD set just because it has "Full 1080p" :rolleyes: on it.

markrubin

10-19-06, 01:25 PM

AHHHHHhhhh

made it to page 2 :D

FlawlessOne

10-19-06, 01:33 PM

I don't know if this was posted yet...this is a long thread but here it is anyway...

Canon Inc., Toshiba Corp. and their joint venture SED Inc. are exhibiting a 55-inch SED panel at the "FPD International 2006" in Pacifico Yokohama convention center. It is a so-called "full HD" panel featuring 1920 x 1080p resolution as with the one showcased at the "CEATEC JAPAN 2006."

The contrast ratio is reported to be 100000:1, while that of the model presented at the CEATEC JAPAN 2006 was 50000:1. "The performance improves day by day. It's not that we have revamped something in particular," says an SED demonstrator. Video images that aims to highlight the contrast ratio of 100000:1 are also displayed.

SED's booth is situated apart from the general exhibition hall, which is on the first floor. The companies have installed three panels in the same layout that resembles a theater as in the CEATEC exhibition at the Annex Hall on the second floor. The theater can hold up to approx. 100 people. The companies shake up the audience three times an hour.

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20061019/122482/

Auditor55

10-19-06, 01:47 PM

uzombie

10-19-06, 01:48 PM

Auditor55

10-19-06, 01:51 PM

greenland

10-19-06, 03:39 PM

Are all the SED demonstrations to date held in dark rooms. it would appear that they are. Why is that. People do watch TV during the daytime. Is this designed to be strictly a nocturnal creature?. :)

madshi

10-19-06, 03:45 PM

Are all the SED demonstrations to date held in dark rooms. it would appear that they are. Why is that. People do watch TV during the daytime.
Do they? I'm mainly watching at night. Movies at daytime are no fun. No atmosphere...

greenland

10-19-06, 03:52 PM

Do they? I'm mainly watching at night. Movies at daytime are no fun. No atmosphere...

OK: Someone is watching all that Oprah and Rachael Sting-Ray dreck. Still does not answer what I was wondering about, have they done daylight demos. Would be nice to know how they handle reflections etc.

You need to move to the North Pole, and that way you will have ample night viewing conditions. :D

VFR

10-19-06, 04:09 PM

You need to move to the North Pole, and that way you will have ample night viewing conditions. :D

Or none at all ;)

Auditor55

10-19-06, 05:11 PM

Do they? I'm mainly watching at night. Movies at daytime are no fun. No atmosphere...

They are trying to demonstrate true PQ and that's best done in a dark enviornment. No videophile watches his/her display in a light house. Leave the Best Buy & Circuit City settings at the store. :mad:

bluescreen

10-19-06, 05:14 PM

Do they? I'm mainly watching at night. Movies at daytime are no fun. No atmosphere... A lot of football is played during the day and early evening when the sun goes down.

GooglyBear

10-19-06, 09:26 PM

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20061019/122482/

55" SED display ... wonder how close these truly are to mass production/consumer market.. hmm, curious..

bwclark

10-19-06, 09:44 PM

http://techon.nikkeibp.co.jp/english/NEWS_EN/20061019/122482/

55" SED display ... wonder how close these truly are to mass production/consumer market.. hmm, curious..

Toshiba's Chairman said they are hoping, wishing, expecting to have them ready for the Beijing Olympics....August 2008.... :eek:

Ken Ross

10-19-06, 10:55 PM

Thanks for that link you posted. Looking at those pics, SED is just to die for isn't it?

100,000-1 baby!! :D

Auditor, only you could look at mediocre pictures and declare this the best technology ever....amazing! :rolleyes:

Ken Ross

10-19-06, 10:58 PM

...I still see scan lines in photos. Scan lines!!! I thought having separate "guns", this would be avoided.

Love the contrast. But laugh at the demos... (low-res net video...come on..that is just impractical).

Can't wait to see one in a store! :)

Yup. There have been a number of pictures that have shown a blanking bar whenn the photo was shot. You'll never see that with plasma or LCD. So yes indeedy, SED will not be free of warts. Oh, and can anyone spell 'burn-in'? But some will continue to proclaim this the best ever when unit 1 hasn't even rolled off the production line. ;)

Ken Ross

10-19-06, 11:00 PM

Are all the SED demonstrations to date held in dark rooms. it would appear that they are. Why is that. People do watch TV during the daytime. Is this designed to be strictly a nocturnal creature?. :)

Basically because SEDs (like plasmas) can't compete with LCDs in bright rooms. Ooops, is this another wart on the 'perfect' technology? ;)

GooglyBear

10-19-06, 11:57 PM

Toshiba's Chairman said they are hoping, wishing, expecting to have them ready for the Beijing Olympics....August 2008.... :eek:

what is interesting, to me, about that newsbreaking info is...
the facts:
-there's a formfactor already
-there's sizes already
-it's been produced, ALREADY

basically.. the things are READY.. it's just the mass-production now and the market strategy/business plan/etc etc that has to be done before they start rolling out SED set's I'm assuming 55" and beyond... but the fact that's already there and...

I'm just surprised is all.. VERY surprised, I thought this technology would be like 2 years away from what y'all been talking about.. I know I've heard of a mobile Sony appliance (PDA? phone?) in Asia that used SED now but it's only around 4" or so..

to see this unveiling of a 55" SED set is just very interesting to me and makes me wonder how far along in the timeline it truly is

edit: oops, seems my posted link was already posted :P my apologies

rogo

10-20-06, 12:32 AM

"basically.. the things are READY"

I thought you were joking, but you seem to be serious.

Something that can't be mass produced is not ready.

ball3r

10-20-06, 01:33 AM

They are trying to demonstrate true PQ and that's best done in a dark enviornment. No videophile watches his/her display in a light house. Leave the Best Buy & Circuit City settings at the store. :mad:

I guess one can't be a sports fan and a videophile. :p

madshi

10-20-06, 04:02 AM

Yup. There have been a number of pictures that have shown a blanking bar whenn the photo was shot. You'll never see that with plasma or LCD.
Actually LCDs *WILL* show a blanking bar, as soon as scanning backlights are being used.

optivity

10-20-06, 06:53 AM

what is interesting, to me, about that newsbreaking info is...
the facts:
-there's a formfactor already
-there's sizes already
-it's been produced, ALREADY

basically.. the things are READY.. it's just the mass-production now and the market strategy/business plan/etc etc that has to be done before they start rolling out SED set's I'm assuming 55" and beyond... but the fact that's already there and...

I'm just surprised is all.. VERY surprised, I thought this technology would be like 2 years away from what y'all been talking about.. I know I've heard of a mobile Sony appliance (PDA? phone?) in Asia that used SED now but it's only around 4" or so..

to see this unveiling of a 55" SED set is just very interesting to me and makes me wonder how far along in the timeline it truly is

edit: oops, seems my posted link was already posted :P my apologiesI'm willing to bet we won't see any SED FPs at the B&Ms during 2007.

rikie

10-20-06, 09:52 AM

Something that can't be mass produced is not ready.
Rogo, did you really mean this? Or did you mean to say...Something that is not being mass produced is not ready.

greenland

10-20-06, 10:09 AM

greenland

10-20-06, 10:17 AM

Again: Just a simple inquiry, just needs a simple reply, not a lot of defensive rants about peoples viewing habits:

Has the latest SED full HD 55inch panel being demonstrated outside of dark room conditions, and if some one has seen such a display, how did it look. Did it have any reflection problems or any other viewing problems that you noticed?.

Auditor55

10-20-06, 10:45 AM

I'm willing to bet we won't see any SED FPs at the B&Ms during 2007.

You would probably win that bet considering the fact that Toshiba has already projected 2008 as a release time for SED in the USA.

Auditor55

10-20-06, 10:49 AM

I guess one can't be a sports fan and a videophile. :p

You can be a sports fan and a videophile yes, but no true videophile watches his or her display with light all kinds in the room. That is why professional caibrator never calibrate set with uncontrolled ambient light.

Auditor55

10-20-06, 11:39 AM

Auditor, only you could look at mediocre pictures and declare this the best technology ever....amazing! :rolleyes:

You are not taking note of the same things I seeing. I'm know that those pics aren't truly represenative of the greatness of SED, however I can get what they are demonstrating at the show, the tremendous blacks as a result of the incredible contrast ratio. Today's Plasmas and LCD's, even the ones costing $12,000 to $16,000, improved as they might be, they still glow in the dark. :(

Ken Ross

10-20-06, 12:18 PM

You are not taking note of the same things I seeing. I'm know that those pics aren't truly represenative of the greatness of SED, however I can get what they are demonstrating at the show, the tremendous blacks as a result of the incredible contrast ratio. Today's Plasmas and LCD's, even the ones costing $12,000 to $16,000, improved as they might be, they still glow in the dark. :(

Auditor, my point was that your post clearly implied those pictures demonstrated the 'greatness' of this technology. It clearly didn't. There have been many misleading pictures related to many technologies that never made it. The ONLY way to tell how good this technology may be, is to see the following:

* Overall picture quality of a full production model SED
* SEDs in dark environments
* SEDs in bright environments
* SED's resistance to burn-in (more, less or similarly affected as other technologies?)
* SED's actual lifetime expectancy on production models
* SED's final cost and price competitiveness with other technologies that are improving and will continue to improve

I could go on, but that's enough for now. It is these real issues, not judging an entire technology from a tiny screen shot, that will judge how good/bad this new technology is. That is the only realistic approach to determining success....certainly not declaring a winner when unit 1 hasn't shipped.

aud19

10-20-06, 12:24 PM

I thought this thread was supposed to be for actual information....not bickering and conjecture....?

Auditor55

10-20-06, 12:56 PM

I thought this thread was supposed to be for actual information....not bickering and conjecture....?

Simply put, I believe there are some that don't want see SED make it. I constantly see misinformation being spread around this forum regarding SED. Not only is this thread about SED information, its also a discussion thread for those who are enthusiastic about SED technology and love the idea of that a manufacturer like Toshiba is actually making a display that will fulfill all of our needs.

Auditor55

10-20-06, 01:21 PM

Auditor, my point was that your post clearly implied those pictures demonstrated the 'greatness' of this technology. It clearly didn't. There have been many misleading pictures related to many technologies that never made it. The ONLY way to tell how good this technology may be, is to see the following:

* Overall picture quality of a full production model SED
* SEDs in dark environments
* SEDs in bright environments
* SED's resistance to burn-in (more, less or similarly affected as other technologies?)
* SED's actual lifetime expectancy on production models
* SED's final cost and price competitiveness with other technologies that are improving and will continue to improve

I could go on, but that's enough for now. It is these real issues, not judging an entire technology from a tiny screen shot, that will judge how good/bad this new technology is. That is the only realistic approach to determining success....certainly not declaring a winner when unit 1 hasn't shipped.

We don't know what the full production lines are going to look like, but much like most display technolodies, the production lines are usually better than the prototypes, I don't expect SED to be any different.

I don't know how SED is going to look in a bright enviornment, if it is reflective, that might be a deal breaker for some. But for me, I don't care about reflection because I personally would never have set in room where I could not control to the lighting.

However, I have reason to believe that SED is going to score high in all areas, especially in the black level deparment. There are folks who witnessed SED and have given testimony, some of which have been posted in the ongoing SED discussion thread, and each every time we get comment such as " there is nothing that can touch SED' " SED is on a different planet" .

I have no reason to doubt the testimony being given by these folks. We at least know that SED's blacks will be superior to all current fixed pixel display technology being massed produced today.

That fact and that fact alone should make you excited. Since digital displays have touched down upon us, they have given us many things to like about them, but one thing that has and continue to bedevil them is lack of great blacks and or poor contrast ratio. Even Dr. Raymond Soneira in his display technology shoot-out essay and report concluded it by stating that the contrast ratio needs to improve.

For over 50 years CRT represented the reference standard, other newer digital display technologies did things well, but they were always considered secondary to a finely tuned CRT display. You know this as well as I do.

As the end of CRT era is upon and reign of flat panel displays comes in, the creation of SED is an attempt to breath new life into a venerable display technology that has served us well for many years. Taking the concepts derived from CRT technology and putting them into flat panel form is what SED is about, with that in mind, I have high hopes for SED.

wojtek

10-20-06, 05:13 PM

Rogo, did you really mean this? Or did you mean to say...Something that is not being mass produced is not ready.

Either Rogo knows something we don't (as is often the case) or it was a Freudian slip... ;)

mark_1080p

10-20-06, 05:27 PM

When they hit the stores, there will be reflections off the glass.
There will also be green reflections off the phosphor.

I'd say only a tiny minority of people watch in near darkness a majority of the time.
Given its stingy power use, though, hope it works out.
Encouraging to finally see a 55".

rogo

10-20-06, 05:27 PM

Rogo, did you really mean this? Or did you mean to say...Something that is not being mass produced is not ready.

I'm pretty sure what I wrote reads correctly in English.

If it can't be mass produced, it's not ready.

I'm feeling like some of you are reading too far between the lines. I'm not saying it won't be mass produced in the future. I'm saying that right now it can't be mass produced.

optivity

10-20-06, 05:51 PM

Tatung Chairman, WS. Lin announced at FPD International 2006, held this week in Japan, that they will be working with Toshiba on SED panels. Tatung is the largest shareholder in Chinese Co. CPT. That is all I have seen about it, so far. Looks like they may build future plants in China.Which means they will be selling them at Wal*Mart too. :D You would probably win that bet considering the fact that Toshiba has already projected 2008 as a release time for SED in the USA.I did not know that, OK; I'll double those odds then. :D

greenland

10-20-06, 08:30 PM

You would probably win that bet considering the fact that Toshiba has already projected 2008 as a release time for SED in the USA.

What is your source for that. I know that they announced at CEATEC that they were going to first market them in Japan, and were aiming to be on the market for the 2008 Summer Olympics. Where did you see that they were aiming to release SED in the USA in 2008?.

Auditor55

10-21-06, 01:22 PM

What is your source for that. I know that they announced at CEATEC that they were going to first market them in Japan, and were aiming to be on the market for the 2008 Summer Olympics. Where did you see that they were aiming to release SED in the USA in 2008?.

http://news.com.com/Toshiba+set+to+build+55-inch+SED+TVs/2100-1041_3-6122031.html?tag=st.rc.targ_mb

Starting in Japan in late 2007!!

A full production in 2008.

Blu-ray, HD DVD, SED Star At CEATEC

By Greg Tarr, STAFF
(TWICE) _ Chiba, Japa The rollout of next-generation Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD recorders, and new advances in flat-panel TV technologies helped color the 2006 CEATEC Expo, held here last week.

An estimated 200,000 people were expected to visit the exhibition over its five-day run, which would best last-year's attendance, which topped 199,680 people. Approximately 807 exhibiting companies 283 from outside Japan are presenting products this year, as show organizers look to become more competitive with rival international electronics shows, including Germany's IFA, which went to an annual schedule for the first time this year.

Among the day one highlights was the unveiling of the first working 55W-inch surface-conduction electron-emitter display (SED) flat-panel HDTV set, which is scheduled to be manufactured for the Japanese consumer market by joint developers Canon and Toshiba late in 2007. The products could be available in the United States in 2008, company representatives said.

Auditor55

10-21-06, 01:36 PM

At this rate its possible I could be watching 2008 election day covergage on new SED display.

Man its true that good things come to those who wait :D

rikie

10-21-06, 02:51 PM

Man its true that good things come to those who wait :D
One can't know this until one is no longer waiting. If one waits long enough, all waiting will come to an end. Is that a good thing? One can't know this until one is no longer waiting.

greenland

10-21-06, 05:53 PM

Man its true that good things come to those who wait :D

I need you to provide proof that this is always the case. How about you try and prove it this way: Wait a mere 100 days before you eat or drink anything at all, and see if at the end of the 100 days what comes to you turns out to be a good thing. A very Godot to you Mate! :)

Ken Ross

10-21-06, 06:05 PM

One can't know this until one is no longer waiting. If one waits long enough, all waiting will come to an end. Is that a good thing? One can't know this until one is no longer waiting.

Thank you for a bit of common sense! So the bottom line is we are yet another year away (assuming no further delays...which is still quite possible).

pftaylor

10-21-06, 09:02 PM

I want to drink the SED kool-aid. I really do. I just can't.

What I have trouble with is the lack of available information about available screen dimensions in order to make an informed decision. To me that means that we could be five or more years away before large sizes emerge. I realize that is a guess, but so is everything else I have read about this soon-to-be-produced product.

When will there be a 60"?
How about a 70"?
Is an 80" even possible?

My point is, I don't care how stupendous a 55" or so sized screen looks because it will never work in my intended room with my viewing habits. So for me, I am destined to invest in available technolgies that suit my lifestyle. In the realm of tv watching that means 70" or better. So for now, I will invest in a 70" SXRD and hope that a 70" or bigger SED is available at some point in the future. I'm hoping that occurs sooner rather than later.

Only problem is, hope isn't a strategy.

wojtek

10-21-06, 09:13 PM

Thank you for a bit of common sense! So the bottom line is we are yet another year away (assuming no further delays...which is still quite possible).

Ken - I've been wondering.

You've been quite pessimistic in these SED threads.

I am just trying to understand - no disrespect - how much of your pessimism is based on the understandable doubt about the new, unproven technologies (like SED), and how much is based on the fact that if SED will be all that it promises to be, you'll have to throw both your (expensive) Fujitsus out the window?

Me, I'll be more than happy to throw my Panny out the window if SED turns out what it promises to be.

I'll do it in a second, because in my very humble opinion, plasma is one huge compromise when it comes to PQ.

That's why I can't wait for SED.

Maybe Fujitsu is in another world compared to Panny, but I doubt it. I saw a few of them in the stores.

Same dreck.

I can't stand plasma, really.

I am happy for you that you love your Fujitsu, but why are you pessimistic regarding SED PQ?

DIPHONIC

10-22-06, 02:19 AM

[joint developers Canon and Toshiba late in 2007. The products could be available in the United States in 2008, company representatives said.

Seems like Japanese propaganda - in reality, a last ditch effort - and a pathetic one -
to make it appear that Japan still leads in TV technology.

Korea has them beat on LCD (I consider the latest SHARP LCDs (a big dollar Japanese gamble) a failure .

What gimmick have they got left ? Looks like it's SED

Light output of SEDs is lower than LCDs and their Color Gamut is inferior - In fact
they don't even want to talk about Color Gamut--Why ? because with phosphors,
you trade intensity for color range

H60Ace

10-22-06, 09:33 AM

^^^ Ignorant statement.

greenland

10-22-06, 11:55 AM

Seems like Japanese propaganda - in reality, a last ditch effort - and a pathetic one -
to make it appear that Japan still leads in TV technology.

Korea has them beat on LCD (I consider the latest SHARP LCDs (a big dollar Japanese gamble) a failure .

What gimmick have they got left ? Looks like it's SED

Light output of SEDs is lower than LCDs and their Color Gamut is inferior - In fact
they don't even want to talk about Color Gamut--Why ? because with phosphors,
you trade intensity for color range

"You are very wise, and my people thank you for your support. Japan very backward". Kim Jong Il :D

romper

10-22-06, 12:41 PM

2008, huh? Oh well, I may as well start saving in a change jar. Should be able to afford a nice one by then.

DIPHONIC

10-22-06, 04:24 PM

^^^ Ignorant statement.

The Dismal state of Japan's Big Hitters:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SHARP : Gambled on domestic LCD production (A valiant idea but Samsung LCDs are better)

SONY : Not investing in SED (Smart), Abandoning Plasma (Smart), Using Samsung LCDs (Smarter than Sharp)

PANASONIC: Betting big on Plasma (Desperate & Dumb)

PIONEER: Betting big on Plasma (Doomed)(Falling market share as prices drop)

CANON: Still throwing money at SED (Just plain Dumb)

TOSHIBA: Throwing money at SED (Desperate)(After losing DLP sales to the superior Samsung)

Too many manufacturers; shakeout & bankruptcies coming.

thebishman

10-22-06, 04:59 PM

The Dismal state of Japan's Big Hitters:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

SHARP : Gambled on domestic LCD production (A valiant idea but Samsung LCDs are better)

SONY : Not investing in SED (Smart), Abandoning Plasma (Smart), Using Samsung LCDs (Smarter than Sharp)

PANASONIC: Betting big on Plasma (Desperate & Dumb)

PIONEER: Betting big on Plasma (Doomed)(Falling market share as prices drop)

CANON: Still throwing money at SED (Just plain Dumb)

TOSHIBA: Throwing money at SED (Desperate)(After losing DLP sales to the superior Samsung)

Too many manufacturers; shakeout & bankruptcies coming.

Boy,
I am now really anxious to hear Rogo's take on your post.
Bish

Brainiac 5

10-22-06, 05:31 PM

The Dismal state of Japan's Big Hitters:So, I'm beginning to get a hint that you may like LCDs...? :rolleyes:

Seriously, I don't care if SED takes over the world, I just want to be able to buy one myself.

DIPHONIC

10-22-06, 09:10 PM

Boy,
I am now really anxious to hear Rogo's take on your post.
Bish

Rogo is an SED Skeptic--So is Sony :p

DIPHONIC

10-22-06, 09:21 PM

I'm beginning to get a hint that you may like LCDs...?

.

Luv 'em ! - Brighter and wider Color Gamut than SED could ever dream of
And with dynamic LED backlighting, Blacks down to cut-off.

Phosphor illumination might have been a good idea in 1950 when the Shadow Mask Color Kinescope was being developed , but not today.

Brian P. Hearon

10-22-06, 11:44 PM

I thought Ken raised some valid points. I also wonder about the longevity of the SED vs LCD and plasma. What is the energy consumption of SED compared to LCD and plasma? How would one compare the response time SED 1msec vs LCD 6msec and how that impacts watching sports programming for instance? SED sounds very promising and wish it were available much sooner. Best advise may be to buy cheap now as the future will be very interesting.

Felgar

10-23-06, 12:47 AM

I don't understand why people are so concerned about power consumption. It's single-digit dollar figures to run any TV for very extended periods of time.

rogo

10-23-06, 02:59 AM

I find the analysis of Japan's heavy hitters at best amusing. Perhaps I ought to leave it at that.

As for power consumption, let me say that as a "greenie" it matters to me. Being wasteful is no longer particularly interesting to me and affects my purchasing decisions on a lot of products -- cars, computers, TVs. It doesn't mean I'm living in darkness or freezing my butt off, but we make most of our power with solar here and we try to use it judiciously.

optivity

10-23-06, 07:15 AM

For those of us who live on the cold, snowy northeast... global warming is a good thing. :D

TNG

10-23-06, 10:41 AM

We don't know what the full production lines are going to look like, but much like most display technolodies, the production lines are usually better than the prototypes, I don't expect SED to be any different.

Is this really the case with SED? I am not trying to be a downer here, but do we know how many prototypes were manufactured and rejected to find the screens that were finally displayed? They have had enough time to do it.

On the other hand, you are correct SED does hold allot of promise in the FPD field. But Ken is right, testing needs to be done to look at the limits, faults and the improvements over existing tech.

It is good to see that they have produced a 55, shows some progress.

Felgar

10-23-06, 11:11 AM

As for power consumption, let me say that as a "greenie" it matters to me. Being wasteful is no longer particularly interesting to me and affects my purchasing decisions on a lot of products -- cars, computers, TVs.
I hear what you're saying and I certainly respect it. It's just that a TV running at 300 Watts of power consumption vs. say 150 Watts is a very small consideration compared to stoves, clothes dryers, hot water heaters, window and external structure insulation, esspecially automobiles, and even speaker amplifiers that it doesn't really affect the big picture. I guess every little bit counts and if you don't do the little things you might not do the big ones either...

aud19

10-23-06, 11:43 AM

every little bit counts

I believe that sums it up nicely ;) Plus you multiply every "little bit" by 300,000,000 Americans and that bit isn't so little :eek: Even on an individual level say SED saves you even $1/day of power. Over a year that's $365 ;)

Auditor55

10-23-06, 11:55 AM

I need you to provide proof that this is always the case. How about you try and prove it this way: Wait a mere 100 days before you eat or drink anything at all, and see if at the end of the 100 days what comes to you turns out to be a good thing. A very Godot to you Mate! :)

The proof is all around you.

Auditor55

10-23-06, 12:01 PM

USCsuperfan

10-23-06, 12:08 PM

My question is, how long before SED is affordable for your common consumer, say less than $2000 for a 50"?

Auditor55

10-23-06, 12:12 PM

Luv 'em ! - Brighter and wider Color Gamut than SED

Here we go again, color gamut and the snake oil of the month. Offering colors that you eyes can't even see. Just like a 1080p set on 42 inch screen. Now that folks are getting hip to that scam, here comes the new snake oil.

could ever dream of
And with dynamic LED backlighting, Blacks down to cut-off.

I have never seen a LCD with great black levels and you never will because the definintion of LCD means poor blacks.

Phosphor illumination might have been a good idea in 1950 when the Shadow Mask Color Kinescope was being developed , but not today.

The last time I checked phosphor based display technology is considered the reference standard by the majority of the globes video experts, videophiles and display technology scientist.

LCD is primarily being pushed by the interactive gamer community(gen X) and not by those who's primary interest is uncompromised PQ. SED is for those who are tired of compromised PQ.

Auditor55

10-23-06, 12:13 PM

My question is, how long before SED is affordable for your common consumer, say less than $2000 for a 50"?

We don't know at this point.

Felgar

10-23-06, 12:17 PM

Supposing SED takes 200 watts of less power than a competing technology... A price of 7 cents / kWh is pretty typically. 5 hours of use costs 7 cents extra. It's more like a dollar a week, at very heavy usage of 70 hours/week.

The maximum usage of the PD60 is 345 watts but average is probably like 220 or so (just a guess). Over the 4-year, 4500 hour life of my Panasonic ED TV till I stepped up to the 50", it cost about $70 to run the TV for that entire time... Just a bit more than a tank of gas, and about a week of heating the home in the dead of winter. A very small consideration and certainly far outweighed by any other performance or asthetic quality of a TV, IMO.

If you wanna be green then you have my support and respect. I just hope you're not driving a 20 mpg SUV around but buying an LCD because you think it's better for the environment. :D

USCsuperfan

10-23-06, 12:19 PM

We don't know at this point.
How about some useless speculation then? ;)

Shurenuff

10-23-06, 01:34 PM

How about some useless speculation then? ;)

Well, considering that a 50" plasma or LCD panel should be much more affordable in a couple of years when SED is released, I don't think you'll have to wait that long after release. My guess is that 2nd generation SED panels (2009) should be in your pricerange.

greenland

10-23-06, 02:36 PM

Luv 'em ! - Brighter and wider Color Gamut than SED could ever dream of
And with dynamic LED backlighting, Blacks down to cut-off.

Phosphor illumination might have been a good idea in 1950 when the Shadow Mask Color Kinescope was being developed , but not today.

If LCD is what floats your boat, and you do not have an any interest in SED, why are practically all your posts on the SED thread, and almost nothing on the LCD threads?.

uzombie

10-23-06, 02:43 PM

If LCD is what floats your boat, and you do not have an any interest in SED, why are practically all your posts on the SED thread, and almost nothing on the LCD threads?.

On other boards, that poster would be called a "Troll". :p
"In Internet terminology, a troll is a person who enters an established community such as an online discussion forum and intentionally tries to cause disruption, most often in the form of posting inflammatory, off-topic, or otherwise inappropriate messages"

I, for one, feel that waiting...sucks. Not that I am a SED convert, but when I factor in what a 52-55" LCD costs now, and being an average-joe at funding (aka financing) the purchase, I feel that once I am done paying off the LCD TV, the SED will be out and likely 40% less than my original (and now dated) LCD TV purchase.

I'd rather take the $5000 (that is what a 55" LCD retails for currently) and invest it. By 2008, I'll be able to afford not only the tv, but the taxes on the capital gains! :D

greenland

10-23-06, 03:06 PM

On other boards, that poster would be called a "Troll". :p
"In Internet terminology, a troll is a person who enters an established community such as an online discussion forum and intentionally tries to cause disruption, most often in the form of posting inflammatory, off-topic, or otherwise inappropriate messages"

We have a thread monitor who deletes pointed observations about such people's behavior, so I choose to sublimate the point in the form of a question.

Now for a SED question, on the SED thread.
Does anybody have any contacts with the SED people with Canon or Toshiba, and can you check with them to see if they will be showing the 1080P 55inch panel at the upcoming CES in Vegas. If we knew for sure that they were, if might be worthwhile to find someone who will attend CES and arm them with a list of questions we would like answered. It seems like all that the journalists do is go slack jawed when the demo is shown and never get down to specifics about specs.

enator

10-23-06, 04:31 PM

If your looking for the biggest buzz at Japan’s CEATEC this year, go no further than the Canon/Toshiba SED booth in Hall 1 at this massive precursor to the January Consumer Electronics Show. Here, the Surface-conduction Electron-emitter Display (SED), which was conspicuously absent from SID and other display technology venues this year, is being shown in a 55-inch model.

Lines begin forming a good 40 minutes to 1 hr. before the closed-door presentation, and that’s the line to get tickets. There is yet another line to see the demonstration.

To my knowledge, no one who has seen the SED technology up front and close denies the display prowess. And the specs support this. The 55-inch model shown publicly for the first time here yesterday includes a 1920 x 1080 display resolution boasting 50,000:1 contrast at 450 cd/m2 brightness at a less than 1ms response time. Yutaka Sakuraba, SEDs deputy senior general manager for product development and design claims true CRT like performance from the flat panel display; something he said no other display technology can even approach.

Possibly true, but the company has yet to demonstrate they can produce these results in mass quantities and perhaps more importantly, at a price point competitive with rival LCD and PDP flat screens. Adding fuel to doubting display analyst crowd is the company’s long delay in bringing the product to market-or even full production.

For his part, Sakuraba said flat panel market conditions, including significant price erosion in the space, forced a re-visit of product development plans including cost-down and ramp models more than once. ” It’s been a planning nightmare for the team but we believe we are on track for full production in the 2008 time frame.” he said. “We’re looking at the broader view and mass migration to DTV by 2011 when digital TV signals become the standard and all analog goes away.” Sakuraba continued.

The company will spend the first half of 2007 perfecting its prototype process in Hitatsuka, Japan where the 55-inch units shown at CEATEC were produced. The company plans to be in serial-production by July-07 with a 55-inch line. Then, it will move to full production at a former Toshiba CRT factory located in Himaji, (Hyogo prefecture) Japan by the beginning of 2008.

Sakuraba emphasized all equipment used to build the new displays in the company’s prototype factory was developed in-house leveraging the technology strengths of both partners. For example, Canon is supplying critical ink-jet technology in applying the palladium-oxide and carbon compound emitter layer. So the company is charged not only with developing the process, but building the tools to manufacture the technology as well.

Make no mistake, what these two companies are attempting is no less than a display technology paradigm shift in the face of LCD and PDP flat panel dominance - the result of billions of R&D and capacity investment dollars and ballooning output fueling accelerated price declines which continually spur demand for these traditional flat panels. But the company is bullish on SED display superiority, pouring development funds and resources into the project. And if the growing crowds here at CEATEC portend the future, the SED image is one certainly worth waiting for. The question is: will this wait ever be rewarded?

rogo

10-23-06, 05:43 PM

"It's just that a TV running at 300 Watts of power consumption vs. say 150 Watts is a very small consideration compared to stoves, clothes dryers, hot water heaters, window and external structure insulation, esspecially automobiles, and even speaker amplifiers that it doesn't really affect the big picture. "

So, to keep this on track, if SED is really lower power, it would attract me for that reason.

I have a clothes washer/dryer that is Energy Star, low-water use (Maytag Neptune series). We just replaced our hot-water heater with the most efficient model in the series. We have one hybrid car in the household (and will get a 2nd when the time to replace the first is ripe). We are putting in CFs as we get around to it. And we make a lot of our own electricity with a solar PV system.

I'd consider supporting it for power consumption reasons alone, so long as the price of saving power wasn't outrageous. If I retire the new plasma to the bedroom at that point, it'll be used so little that it's "wastefulness" would truly be insignificant.

Mark

Felgar

10-23-06, 06:17 PM

I'd consider supporting it for power consumption reasons alone, so long as the price of saving power wasn't outrageous. If I retire the new plasma to the bedroom at that point, it'll be used so little that it's "wastefulness" would truly be insignificant.
You didn't quote my calc which showed total cost of $70 over 4 years for running my ED TV, which I thought was a compelling point. Did you miss it?

At any rate... It's clear that in your case you've given it a lot of thought and are also making efforts in all facets of your lifestyle. I can't argue with that and actually I truly thank you as a fellow inhabitant of this planet. :)

Like I said, I'm more against the common misconception that "I'll save a lot of money because it uses less power" or "I'm environmentally friendly because my TV saves energy, even though I self-commute 40 miles to work each day in an SUV." :) You obviously don't fit into either of those classifications.

optivity

10-23-06, 06:18 PM

My question is, how long before SED is affordable for your common consumer, say less than $2000 for a 50"?Most likely when 3D HDTV's are invented :D but the good news is when SED TVs become available, you should be able to get a 1080p PDP for that price. ;)

vtms

10-23-06, 06:18 PM

So, to keep this on track, if SED is really lower power, it would attract me for that reason.

That's also one of the many reasons why I'll wait until SED to make my first HDTV purchase. Other than an average PQ, too high power consumption has been the main reason that automatically disqualifies plasma from my consideration. SED should fix both PQ and PC issues.

dmcmahon

10-23-06, 07:42 PM

dmcmahon

10-23-06, 07:55 PM

Auditor, I don't know what you mean by "colors you can't even see". You certainly can see them as they are still in the human visual range. Phosphor technology only supported about 70% of the NTSC, which itself defined a triangle that trimmed off something of what humans are capable of seeing.

A few DLP makers have tried to better approximate the visual range with 5-color systems that define a pentagonal shape in the color space. I vaguely recall some Israeli company doing some research in that area as well. The new wider-gamut LED-backlit LCD technology would seem to be worth a look.

If you are arguing lack of content, that's another matter and kind of a chicken-and-egg issue, is it not?

Ken Ross

10-23-06, 07:57 PM

Ken - I've been wondering.

You've been quite pessimistic in these SED threads.

I am just trying to understand - no disrespect - how much of your pessimism is based on the understandable doubt about the new, unproven technologies (like SED), and how much is based on the fact that if SED will be all that it promises to be, you'll have to throw both your (expensive) Fujitsus out the window?

It's not so much that I'm pessimistic about SED, but I'm trying to throw some reality in to the mix here. Some are proclaiming that SED has already won the war, trounced LCDs, trounced plasmas and trounced any other imaging technology ever invented. Some are essentially saying why are the other manufacturers even bothering continuing with other technologies. It's this kind of talk that demands a couterpoint. AVS is about sharing ideas and sometimes misinformation can run rampant. I can't tell you how many threads we've seen over the years proclaiming that all other technologies should just cease and desist since the latest & greatest technology de jour was about to knock all other contenders out of the box. It never happened.

I hope that SED is all it's cracked up to be! I've never been known for turning my back to a technology I knew was superior. It happened when I saw plasmas relative to my big HD RPTV. I could have ignored it, but my eyes couldn't lie. But here's what I consider to be the simple truth about SEDs as we know it today:

* We don't know how bright these displays will be and whether they will be a viable 'bright ambient room' display like LCDs. Advantage unknown.

* We know they will have reflective screen surfaces just like CRTs and plasmas. No advantage relative to plasmas and disadvantage relative to LCDs.

* We know they are supposed to offer superior blacks relative to plasmas. That's surely a plus. Advantage SEDs.

* We know they will be prone to burn-in just like plasmas, just like CRTs. No advantage relative to plasmas and a disadvantage relative to LCDs.

* We know they will more than likely be more expensive than similarly sized competing technologies. Disadvantage SED.

* We know they will be initially limited in size. For me 55" offers nothing. I currently have a 50" plasma and would never switch for a mere 5". I'm looking for 65"....something more cinematic. Disadvantage SED.

* We have no idea what the reliability or lifetime issues are with SEDs. Potential disadvantage SEDs.

* How about mass production efficencies/inefficiencies? Unknown and concerning.

* All of this assumes that plasmas and other technologies will come to a screeching halt in further development between now and when SEDs become common. A very very foolish assumption when we already know that Pioneer has announced a new breakthough in reduced black levels on plasmas....a patent that is apparently shared with Panasonic. If this pans out, IMO, the major advantage of SED is gone....in an instant!

So you see, this is far far from a black & white issue (sorry for the bad pun). As it stands now, the only advantage I see is that of the superior blacks. Beyond that I simply see nothing to be excited about....certainly not size, certainly not lifespan, certainly not reflections, certainly not burn-in. ;)

Oh yes, and as to the Fujitsu being the 'same dreck' as other plasmas or plasmas in general, we couldn't disagree more....simply not possible!

aud19

10-23-06, 08:09 PM

Ken you forgot SED's advantage in off axis viewing ;)

Ken Ross

10-23-06, 08:16 PM

Ken you forgot SED's advantage in off axis viewing ;)

True, but no advantage again relative to plasmas...only LCDs and RPTV technologies. :)

aud19

10-23-06, 08:25 PM

True, but no advantage again relative to plasmas...only LCDs and RPTV technologies. :)

Oh, and motion as well ;)

As for light output, they should be more than bright enough at their current specs, though not likely as bright as LCD's. If you ask me, that's an advantage :p LCD's work great for bright rooms but fail miserably in more critical, darker environs. They're not really in competion on that front IMO. Two different animals bred for two different purposes in that case.

rogo

10-24-06, 06:15 AM

You didn't quote my calc which showed total cost of $70 over 4 years for running my ED TV, which I thought was a compelling point. Did you miss it?

At any rate... It's clear that in your case you've given it a lot of thought and are also making efforts in all facets of your lifestyle. I can't argue with that and actually I truly thank you as a fellow inhabitant of this planet. :)

Like I said, I'm more against the common misconception that "I'll save a lot of money because it uses less power" or "I'm environmentally friendly because my TV saves energy, even though I self-commute 40 miles to work each day in an SUV." :) You obviously don't fit into either of those classifications.

Well, aside from the fact that my electricity is 11 cents / kWh and rising, I don't care if it saves $70 over 4 year or $20 or $200... I just care it saves.

I also largely work out of home and while I used to drive 15 mpg, gas guzzlers, I'm done with that forever.

I agree with you that people can think they are conserving when they aren't, but I also think the No. 1 imperative for America is to stop importing any energy. And so whatever tiny contributions I can make interest me.

rogo

10-24-06, 06:17 AM

Rogo, you are a man after my own heart. My big power savings was replacing the fridge - it cut 1/3 off my power bill. Then again, there are false economies - you could maximize your savings by unplugging it and never using it, but that wouldn't make much sense, eh? Bottom line is you have to be happy enough with the technology. There would frankly be more to gain by finding ways to reduce the stand-by draw of various electronic devices - there unfortunately doesn't seem to be any easy way to do this except look at the stand-by draw more carefully before purchasing.

I'm not advocating shutting off the refrigerator or freezing one's rear off in the winter... Or even giving up hobbies like home theater.

But I will do things like get a smaller "everyday" TV until or unless larger ones get less power hungry.

In the meantime, we are trying to unplug power leeches that draw on standby for no reason and find whatever we can that's wasteful and get rid of it.

richard korsgren

10-24-06, 08:46 AM

I'm not advocating shutting off the refrigerator or freezing one's rear off in the winter... Or even giving up hobbies like home theater.

But I will do things like get a smaller "everyday" TV until or unless larger ones get less power hungry.

In the meantime, we are trying to unplug power leeches that draw on standby for no reason and find whatever we can that's wasteful and get rid of it.

...Are you guys saying I should shut off my 2 mono valve (tube) power amps each night. Tell me it is not so!

bbonds

10-24-06, 10:00 AM

[/QUOTE]* All of this assumes that plasmas and other technologies will come to a screeching halt in further development between now and when SEDs become common. A very very foolish assumption when we already know that Pioneer has announced a new breakthough in reduced black levels on plasmas....a patent that is apparently shared with Panasonic. If this pans out, IMO, the major advantage of SED is gone....in an instant!

So you see, this is far far from a black & white issue (sorry for the bad pun). As it stands now, the only advantage I see is that of the superior blacks. Beyond that I simply see nothing to be excited about....certainly not size, certainly not lifespan, certainly not reflections, certainly not burn-in. ;)

Oh yes, and as to the Fujitsu being the 'same dreck' as other plasmas or plasmas in general, we couldn't disagree more....simply not possible![/QUOTE]

WOW! If that's true about Panny and Pioneer...SED has no shot! Sign me up for whatever product those two companies produce jointly.

mikea28

10-24-06, 10:01 AM

...we already know that Pioneer has announced a new breakthough in reduced black levels on plasmas....a patent that is apparently shared with Panasonic. If this pans out, IMO, the major advantage of SED is gone....in an instant!
Any further details on this technology? AVS thread or press release?

madshi

10-24-06, 10:30 AM

Any further details on this technology? AVS thread or press release?
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=732903

wagz182ksu

10-24-06, 10:45 AM

I found two cool videos via a tech blog I read. They're on youtube. Not sure if they have been posted or not, but neat vids on SED. The watermark at the bottom says they are from dlmag.com

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxv7mmKHRhs&eurl=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wATx4KjECDA&eurl=

rikie

10-24-06, 10:59 AM

I bring up Google Japan and request for searches of Japan sites only, then i type in SED Canon in the Google Japan. I can translate the Google Japan page to English, but when i do the SED Canon search, all the sites come up in Japanese and i do not know how to translate these sites to English. Here is a site in Japanese with a picture of the SED http://journal.mycom.co.jp/photo/ar.../images/01l.jpg but i would like to actually read some of these sights. Can someone here tell me how i might be able to translate all those sites.

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.google.co.jp/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dgoogle%2Bjapan%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%

TNG

10-24-06, 11:26 AM

This thread shows that SED, while it has many fans, will not be the end all of FP displays. Plasma and LCD are getting better and LCD has gotten allot better since Tosh announced it was going to bring it to market (what has it been 2-3 years ago?)

What we know of SED right now is that it will have better blacks and off angle viewing than LCD. It probably (still speculation) will be considerably more money.

Ken brings up a good point, with the cost to size factor, people who can afford the technology are going to want something larger than a 55". The less well heeled people who want a 55" for the family room are going to look at the advantages of SED and find it hard to justify the cost.

By the time SED arrives how much better will LCD and plasma be? Good enough to cause a still birth of the much hyped SED? And remember that there will be bugs, nothing like this is perfect out of the gate.

SED is slowly loosing any advantage it has as time goes by and the competition gets better and more firmly entrenched. One more delay will kill it completely IMO.

bbonds

10-24-06, 11:46 AM

That's also one of the many reasons why I'll wait until SED to make my first HDTV purchase. Other than an average PQ, too high power consumption has been the main reason that automatically disqualifies plasma from my consideration. SED should fix both PQ and PC issues.

There's always going to be something better. You might as well jump in now. By the time you wait for SED to get here (if it ever does) then something else will be on the horizon and you'll hold off till then. You could get hit by a bus tomorrow and never have the opportunity to enjoy what's available now. Life is too short to wait around...

Auditor55

10-24-06, 11:53 AM

Phosphor technology only supported about 70% of the NTSC, which itself defined a triangle that trimmed off something of what humans are capable of seeing.

I guess that's why CRT is considered the reference standard among videophiles, video experts and video scientist world wide. :rolleyes:

As for colors, no one is complaining about current display technologies lack of ability to display colors, if anything today's colors are oversaturated. I don't need to see anymore fake cartoonish looking displays, enough colors already. :(

Auditor55

10-24-06, 12:16 PM

=bbonds All of this assumes that plasmas and other technologies will come to a screeching halt in further development between now and when SEDs become common. A very very foolish assumption when we already know that Pioneer has announced a new breakthough in reduced black levels on plasmas....a patent that is apparently shared with Panasonic. If this pans out, IMO, the major advantage of SED is gone....in an instant!

So you see, this is far far from a black & white issue (sorry for the bad pun). As it stands now, the only advantage I see is that of the superior blacks. Beyond that I simply see nothing to be excited about....certainly not size, certainly not lifespan, certainly not reflections, certainly not burn-in. ;)

Oh yes, and as to the Fujitsu being the 'same dreck' as other plasmas or plasmas in general, we couldn't disagree more....simply not possible

WOW! If that's true about Panny and Pioneer...SED has no shot! Sign me up for whatever product those two companies produce jointly

That Pio plasma is projected for 2008 just like SED and also like SED no price has been announced. But we has been annouced is contrast ratio, the latest and greatest plasma from Pio will supposed to have a 20,000-1 CR, the latest and greatest SED set will have 100,000-1 CR.

Which one would choose?

Plasma and LCD days are numbered. I know Panasonic and Pio have teamed up to try stop this great SED technology from emerging because they both stand to lose. If any of you still think they are not not shaking in their boots think again. They know what's coming, Panasonic and Pioneer reps have attended the SED demos, they see what's coming. They don't want the public comparing a SED set and Plasma and saying "yuk" in regards to the Plasma picture.

SED will be the reference standard, you will see SED quickly adopted by the creative community and video experts, you will see them adopted in broadcast control rooms , where you still see the CRT today.

I have read enough about SED to know that "this is it" the display technology we have all been waiting for. Like the CRT did, I see SED dominating even into the next century. Remember, in SED's infancy (as a baby) its going to blow away other display technologies. SED is going to get better and better. Plasma and LCD, as I said to you before, have already peaked, after all this time they still look digital. Again, I own a Panny Plasma and Sony Bravia XBR LCD set, which I'm pleased with, but I know that when SED comes they are going to look wretched in comparison.

For those of you want fool yourselves into believing that your current display technology will even come close to SED you need get that out of your mind right now.

kirkimus

10-24-06, 12:19 PM

Let me start by saying that I've fallen in love with the idea of SED. I often look at my SD, non-calibrated 32" CRT and think, "Wow, what a nice picture." I rarely see that with other technologies. SED promises to improve upon what I love about CRTs with regards to PQ and allow for much larger sizes and different configurations (wall-mounting, etc.). But will it ever happen? I got really excited to see Part II of this thread, thinking something new was happening. Reading about the new 55" 1080p SED sets really got my hopes up. But then I did some math. Toshiba showed a 37" 720p SED at CES last January. Although I don't have the exact figures right now (I think it was 0.65mm square), the pixel size of a 37" 1280 x 720 display is EXACTLY THE SAME as a 55" 1920 x 1080 display. So what has Toshiba really done in the intervening months? They've managed to make a bigger sheet of the same glass they used at CES? I am once again a Doubting Thomas when it comes to SED. I'd love to see it happen, but it just doesn't seem likely.

Auditor55

10-24-06, 12:29 PM

Auditor55

10-24-06, 12:40 PM

kirkimus

10-24-06, 12:51 PM

greenland

10-24-06, 01:59 PM

We need to get that Canon rep to come here to the Forum.

Then go get him. Those two video threads are fairly old. Both are from the January CES. There are a lot more current videos available. Do a SED search using the Google Video Tool.

bbonds

10-24-06, 02:21 PM

You can be a doubting Thomas, but you at least keep yourself updated on the all the breaking news on SED. Just demoed a 55 inched set with 100,000-1 CR, have confirmed a production facility, will be kicking out 75 thousand panels per month initially with first consumers sets being sold in Japan in 2007 and a full production in 2008.

SED is coming and yes its going to blow everything else in the dust.

because we all know how well any manufacturer sticks to their original production dates. still waiting on Sony's PS3 and Blu-Ray machines....(i hear they had more problems). SED will not be here in 2008...write it down...bookmark this quote if you want. I'm glad there's a fairy tale machine out there that's making Panny and Pio shake...that's what you have to have to get progress on the next generation models. If there wasn't competition we'd still all be driving Model-Ts.

Auditor55

10-24-06, 02:48 PM

because we all know how well any manufacturer sticks to their original production dates. still waiting on Sony's PS3 and Blu-Ray machines....(i hear they had more problems). SED will not be here in 2008...write it down...bookmark this quote if you want. I'm glad there's a fairy tale machine out there that's making Panny and Pio shake...that's what you have to have to get progress on the next generation models. If there wasn't competition we'd still all be driving Model-Ts.

Can you define "denial" with any better words. :rolleyes:

SED is going to happen. Right now, as I type this, Toshiba/Canon is spending billions upon billions of dollars to make it happen. I guess you know better than they do even though both companies are global multi-billion corporations, I guess they should stop dropping billions into SED, don't go forward with their recently annouced production facility and listen to you, it would save Toshia/Canon billions of dollars because you know better than they do. I know I know, the nerve of them try to make something better than plasma.

Plasma and LCD's days are numbered. Just accept it, Panasonic and Pioneer, who now 10-12k priced plasma displays on the market it, they know it. They are hoping like hell you don't ever feast your eyes on a SED set.

Auditor55

10-24-06, 02:49 PM

Then go get him. Those two video threads are fairly old. Both are from the January CES. There are a lot more current videos available. Do a SED search using the Google Video Tool.

So what, you act is if he's been fired or something. We need to have him here.

Auditor55

10-24-06, 02:52 PM

For the record, Auditor55, I wasn't thinking of your "SED is coming" tag line when I titled my post. :) I think most of us want SED, but I'm simply not seeing enough action from the Toshiba/Canon camp to think that it will be here before 1080p plasmas are on the same PQ playing field - probably at a lower price point. However it turns out, though, we can all look forward to a beautiful picture of one variety or the other in the near future.

You need to go back to original SED thread and the first few pages of this thread and read all of the breaking news regarding SED. We are getting SED news. Unless you want a SED news to ticker at the bottom of the screen, I think we are pretty updated on the SED news front.

or you can Google and type in SED for the latest news.

greenland

10-24-06, 03:18 PM

So what, you act is if he's been fired or something. We need to have him here.

No actually what I said was, and now repeat, since you say "we need him here", then you should go get him.
How the hell do you interpret "Go get him" as me acting if he's been fired or something. You said you would like to have him on this thread, and I said go get him. I did not realize that you were so easy to confuse.

Felgar

10-24-06, 03:40 PM

bbonds

10-24-06, 03:42 PM

oh...wow...I thought Auditor was a Canon/Tosh rep... :confused: :rolleyes:

Auditor55

10-24-06, 05:15 PM

This thread is falling into the same "let's all argue about whether SED will make it to market" trap as the last one. I think it would be more useful if we stuck to SED news. I'd love to see a Canon/Toshiba rep who actually knows what's going on to join in... Go flag him down Auditor. :)

I think we can stick to SED news, but we have to counter the SED naysayers at the same time. They don't want see SED make it because they have invested so much $$$ into their 1080p plasmas and LCD's.

aud19

10-24-06, 05:57 PM

I think we can stick to SED news, but we have to counter the SED naysayers at the same time. They don't want see SED make it because they have invested so much $$$ into their 1080p plasmas and LCD's.

I actually wish a mod would come along and delete any of either sides obvious "mine's bigger than yours" bickering leaving only news and factual discussion.

markrubin

10-24-06, 06:05 PM

I think we can stick to SED news, but we have to counter the SED naysayers at the same time. They don't want see SED make it because they have invested so much $$$ into their 1080p plasmas and LCD's.

Auditor

perhaps you and other frequent posters to this thread could limit your posts to SED news eh?

YOU could take the high road and help make this a meaningful thread

dmcmahon

10-24-06, 07:14 PM

The thread title includes news, discussion, and etc. It's not limited to news. And that's good, 'cause there is no news! Unless you count semi-annual demos and semi-annual production date slips. Actually most of the news is what competitors with established technology are doing. I think their preemptive countermoves are very relevant to SED's future, because, as the saying goes: "The good is the enemy of the best."

The CRT was king for a long, long time. Right now we are in a transition period where display technologies are duking it out for future dominance. LCD has solved a great many PQ issues over the past few years and is poised to dethrone CRT next year in unit sales. The competitors have ceded the under-40" market to LCD. Yet size breakthroughs are now putting LCD head-to-head with plasma.

I have been watching the SED technology since reading about it in IEEE Spectrum back in the 90s (then called FED). It sure seemed like an obvious winner to me. Who'da thunk neon sign technology and hand-held calculator technology would dominate the TV market a decade later? Now volumes are up and panel prices are falling fast, it is going to be tough to break in. It is going to have to totally blow away the incumbent technologies and be competitively priced to boot. Plus to dethrone LCD and get the volume needed to start making a profit, they will have to find a way to scale the technology down to at least the 32" size range.

markrubin

10-24-06, 07:16 PM

thread title edited :)

Ken Ross

10-24-06, 08:06 PM

That Pio plasma is projected for 2008 just like SED and also like SED no price has been announced. But we has been annouced is contrast ratio, the latest and greatest plasma from Pio will supposed to have a 20,000-1 CR, the latest and greatest SED set will have 100,000-1 CR.

Which one would choose?

Considering that you'd probably be hard pressed to see a difference between a 20,000:1 and a 100,000:1 CR, probably the BIGGER screen. Auditor, you really really need to come down to Earth on this. SED's major advantage is black levels and it appears that by the time it comes out, plasma will essentially be the equal of that. However, plasma screen sizes will be much bigger. You must have a huge stake in the success of SED, because I just can't imagine what would blind you to the other realities we've discussed in this thread and others can readily see!

DIPHONIC

10-25-06, 01:07 AM

.. no one is complaining about current display technologies ... if anything today's colors are oversaturated. . :(

Saturation is not the same as gamut - two different parameters.

In order to increase the realism of Television, three things need inprovement:

1. Resolution beyond 53-year-old NTSC Standard

2. Color Gamut beyond 53-year-old NTSC Standard

3. Dynamic Luminance Range beyond 56-year-old Shadow Mask CRT

The SED, though a more elegant idea than Plasma, falls short on two of these:

1. Limited peak brightness

2. Restricted Color Gamut

True, SED & CRT can go down to zero black, but LCD & Laser DLP are capable of more realistic Luminance Intensity & Color Gamut.

Conclusion:

CRT, Plasma & SED - Restricted Intensity / Color Gamut Phosphor Technologies - are future Low End niche players at best.

madshi

10-25-06, 03:07 AM

SED's major advantage is black levels and it appears that by the time it comes out, plasma will essentially be the equal of that.
Ken, you're beginning to sound like a broken record, just like Auditor55 does.

"SED's major advantage is black levels.
SED's major advantage is black levels.
SED's major advantage is black levels.
SED's major advantage is black levels.
SED's major advantage is black levels."

No, it's not. It's only one of the advantages.

Owen

10-25-06, 03:30 AM

As far as I understand it, CRT color gamut is what all video standards are based on, so unless video standards change (not likely), there is no use in a wider color gamut.
Where is the video source going to come from?

As for brightness, personally I find existing displays too bright already. I need more peak light output like a hole in the head. :D

While I am keen on the concept of SED, I have concerns over shadow detail and fill factor on the bigger models (over 65”).
I am not drawn in by marketing hype, and will believe performance when I can see it first hand.
The jury is very much still out on SED as far as I am concerned.

wilburpan

10-25-06, 09:15 AM

TNG

10-25-06, 10:50 AM

I think we can stick to SED news, but we have to counter the SED naysayers at the same time. They don't want see SED make it because they have invested so much $$$ into their 1080p plasmas and LCD's.
I think that part of the point here is that SED is not here yet and the 1080p plasmas and LCD's are. And the fact that they become more affordable day by day.

Do they have 50K to 1 static CR? No. Could you tell the difference between 10K or 20K CR and 50K CR with the naked eye? Debatable, but for most people it would not make a difference.

While yes there are allot of people with big buck invested in there sets, we still don't know exactly what the price for a 55" SED will be, but chances are it will be more than the competition, and as I have pointed out before, the competition is getting better and cheaper.

Auditor55

10-25-06, 11:02 AM

I think that part of the point here is that SED is not here yet and the 1080p plasmas and LCD's are. And the fact that they become more affordable day by day.

Do they have 50K to 1 static CR? No. Could you tell the difference between 10K or 20K CR and 50K CR with the naked eye? Debatable, but for most people it would not make a difference.

While yes there are allot of people with big buck invested in there sets, we still don't know exactly what the price for a 55" SED will be, but chances are it will be more than the competition, and as I have pointed out before, the competition is getting better and cheaper.

I understand what you are saying, but personally I'm just not excited about more pixels or more resolution as I'm fully convinced that the manufacturers can provide that to us. What has bedeviled the industry is being able to make a digital display with great black level and shadow detail. I believe SED will be the first digital display that will fully capture the natural CRT look.

Auditor55

10-25-06, 11:26 AM

Saturation is not the same as gamut - two different parameters.

In order to increase the realism of Television, three things need inprovement:

1. Resolution beyond 53-year-old NTSC Standard

2. Color Gamut beyond 53-year-old NTSC Standard

3. Dynamic Luminance Range beyond 56-year-old Shadow Mask CRT

The SED, though a more elegant idea than Plasma, falls short on two of these:

1. Limited peak brightness

2. Restricted Color Gamut

True, SED & CRT can go down to zero black, but LCD & Laser DLP are capable of more realistic Luminance Intensity & Color Gamut.

Conclusion:

CRT, Plasma & SED - Restricted Intensity / Color Gamut Phosphor Technologies - are future Low End niche players at best.

Please excuse my ignorance but can you please demonstrate, with the use of screen shots, an example of the advantages of a wider color gamut vs. current technologies narrow color gamut.

Please explain what my eyes are supposed to see that I'm not getting now?

Auditor55

10-25-06, 11:37 AM

As far as I understand it, CRT color gamut is what all video standards are based on, so unless video standards change (not likely), there is no use in a wider color gamut.
Where is the video source going to come from?

Good point. I happen to believe what we have right now is sufficient, I don't see any use for wider color space, colors of which my eyes will not detect.

mark_1080p

10-25-06, 12:23 PM

mark_1080p

10-25-06, 12:25 PM

For those of us who live on the cold, snowy northeast... global warming is a good thing. :DYeah, until one day when some greenland and antarctic ice melts and you end up boating in central park lake and take the Madison Ave. canal to Freedom Tower :D :D !

Auditor55

10-25-06, 12:41 PM

Considering that you'd probably be hard pressed to see a difference between a 20,000:1 and a 100,000:1 CR, probably the BIGGER screen. Auditor, you really really need to come down to Earth on this. SED's major advantage is black levels and it appears that by the time it comes out, plasma will essentially be the equal of that. However, plasma screen sizes will be much bigger. You must have a huge stake in the success of SED, because I just can't imagine what would blind you to the other realities we've discussed in this thread and others can readily see!

I haven't seen a 20,000-1 nor a 100,000-1 display. So I don't know if I will be able to tell the difference. Until recently, SED was the only display technology offering extremely high contrast ratio. Now plasma manufacturers, responding to the possibility of competition from SED, are trying increase the contrast ratio on their displays. Given a choice a between a set with 100,000-1 CR vs. 20,000-1, I would buy the 100,000-1 set. I just like the idea of the extra headroom.

Also, as I said before, I don't want a 60 or 65 inch monitor, its just too big for my space. Toshiba's 55 inch SED is just perfect for me in every way.

Here's some comments by Dr Raymond Soneira regard SED technology:

Potentially the most interesting is the Canon-Toshiba Surface-conduction Electron-emitter Display, SED, which is a very thin (under 1 centimeter) CRT-like phosphor-based display technology. It has digitally addressed pixels, however, the brightness of each pixel is produced through an analog process, so it should be free of the digital artifacts present in plasma and DLP displays, which have digital on-off intensity controls produced with pulse width modulation (see Part III). In this regard SED is very similar to LCoS. As an emissive technology, SED already produces CRT-like black levels, with contrast ratios in the 10,000 to 100,000 range (much better than plasma because it doesn't need to maintain a background level for priming the discharge). The response time is speced at 1ms, which is very fast.

No false contouring, clay faces, dithering etc.

SED testimony and comparisons. (its old news, but until those images can be removed from my head I'm going to wait for SED :) )

http://www.behardware.com/articles/593-2/close-encounters-of-the-third-kind-sed.html

mark_1080p

10-25-06, 12:50 PM

Lots of talk about energy, any reliable numbers on SED ?
I've seen estimates of half LCD values.

I ordered a Sammy 5296, power spec is 325 Watts, tested here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=733588&page=3) at 122 Watts low backlight mode !!

So we have Advantage:Item -

LCD:Energy Use
LCD:Glare
LCD:Brightness
LCD:Cost
LCD:Viewing during the day
LCD:variety of styles/companies
LCD:Color Gamut
LCD:Screen Flicker
LCD:Image Retention (lack of)

SED:Blacks

LCD is marching forward on blacks, we could have 10,000:1 in a few years, who knows. If so, that relegates the advantage to pitch black viewing. Now who watches a lot of TV in complete darkness? In fact, even in complete darkness your room reflections from the panel light will add ambient which will end up incident on the dark portions of the panel and decrease the CR of the set. So unless you paint your room black, wear black felt sweats, turn all lights off, and wait for sunset you're outta luck, no advantage.

irkuck

10-25-06, 12:54 PM

I have never seen a LCD with great black levels and you never will because the definintion of LCD means poor blacks.

Such definitive statements about LCD proved to be baloneys quite few times (as regards e.g. size, response time). It might be that your statement will get busted too. Sharp already demonstrated Mega Contrast LCD with 1 000 000:1 CR :

"Other prototypes being shown include a screen with a technology Sharp calls Mega Contrast. The screen has a 1 million-to-1 contrast ratio. Typical HD LCD screens sport a 1,200-to-1 contrast ratio."

http://news.com.com/Sharps+very%2C+very+sharp+experimental+screen/2100-1041_3-6122477.html

Auditor55

10-25-06, 12:58 PM

Such definitive statements about LCD proved to be baloneys quite few times (as regards e.g. size, response time). It might be that your statement will get busted too. Sharp already demonstrated Mega Contrast LCD with 1 000 000:1 CR :

"Other prototypes being shown include a screen with a technology Sharp calls Mega Contrast. The screen has a 1 million-to-1 contrast ratio. Typical HD LCD screens sport a 1,200-to-1 contrast ratio."

http://news.com.com/Sharps+very%2C+very+sharp+experimental+screen/2100-1041_3-6122477.html

They need to get that technology to the market. Current LCD technology is just unacceptable to me.

Auditor55

10-25-06, 01:07 PM

Lots of talk about energy, any reliable numbers on SED ?
I've seen estimates of half LCD values.

I ordered a Sammy 5296, power spec is 325 Watts, tested here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=733588&page=3) at 122 Watts low backlight mode !!

So we have Advantage:Item -

LCD:Energy Use
LCD:Glare
LCD:Brightness
LCD:Cost
LCD:Viewing during the day
LCD:variety of styles/companies
LCD:Color Gamut
LCD:Screen Flicker

SED:Blacks

LCD is marching forward on blacks, we could have 10,000:1 in a few years, who knows. If so, that relegates the advantage to pitch black viewing. Now who watches a lot of TV in complete darkness? In fact, even in complete darkness your room reflections from the panel light will add ambient which will end up incident on the dark portions of the panel and decrease the CR of the set. So unless you paint your room black, wear black felt sweats, turn all lights off, and wait for sunset you're outta luck, no advantage.

As for black level-

"Black-level should be the single most important spec after screen size if you’re working in multimedia, imaging, photography, home theater, or in any environment with controlled or subdued lighting." Dr. Ray Soneira

Ken Ross

10-25-06, 03:40 PM

Ken, you're beginning to sound like a broken record, just like Auditor55 does.

"SED's major advantage is black levels.
SED's major advantage is black levels.
SED's major advantage is black levels.
SED's major advantage is black levels.
SED's major advantage is black levels."

No, it's not. It's only one of the advantages.

In the realm of flat panel TVs, I will still contend that black levels is the major selling point of SEDs. Plasmas have no issues with viewing angles, color or brightness (most people on AVS turn their plasma's brightness way down). In fact, most of the write-ups I've seen on SEDs do promote black levels as the biggest achievement. ;)

Ken Ross

10-25-06, 03:44 PM

As far as I understand it, CRT color gamut is what all video standards are based on, so unless video standards change (not likely), there is no use in a wider color gamut.

And actually I will contend that this too is very often misunderstood. Who's CRT, which CRT TV, professional or consumer CRT? Color gamut varies by CRT manufacturer, phosphors used, product line and the particular CRT used. Some have superb color gamuts and others don't. So it can be a bit misleading to simply assume CRTs all have the best color gamuts.

Ken Ross

10-25-06, 03:47 PM

No false contouring, clay faces, dithering etc.

I never see clay face on my Fujitsus and false contouring is so rare on my sets, it would be way way way down on my wish list for improvements. ;)

madshi

10-25-06, 04:03 PM

In the realm of flat panel TVs, I will still contend that black levels is the major selling point of SEDs. Plasmas have no issues with viewing angles, color or brightness (most people on AVS turn their plasma's brightness way down). In fact, most of the write-ups I've seen on SEDs do promote black levels as the biggest achievement. ;)
Check out Canon's SED page:

http://www.canon.com/technology/canon_tech/explanation/sed.html

The text is a rather technical description. But it does list some advantages. They are listed in this order:

- fast video response
- high contrast
- low power consumption

High contrast is only the 2nd achievement being mentioned. Furthermore, there are some advantages (e.g. fillrate) of SED, which are not even listed on that page.

Speaking of fillrate: You may have noticed in the 1080p 65" Panasonic plasma threads, that many people who are used to 768p plasmas describe the 65" 1080p Pany as overall looking similar, but positively "smoother" - due to the better fillrate. That's the one advantage I saw being mentioned most often. There you have it. You had doubted that fillrate could make a difference, and according to what I'm read in the 65" 1080p Pany threads, you have been wrong. It's like this with many things: You don't know what you're missing if you haven't seen how good things can be. Here's another example of this phenomenon:

http://www.behardware.com/articles/641-2/1rst-lcd-at-100-hz-the-end-of-afterglow.html

"Once we tried the 100 Hz, whether with the computer or console, it is impossible to go back to the previous configuration. And once again this was unanimous. What was amusing was that some people in the office say that they weren´t affected by LCD afterglow…. until they tried the 100 Hz."

Again: You don't know what you're missing, if you haven't seen the real deal yet.

mark_1080p

10-25-06, 04:06 PM

If Dr. Ray failed to mention the factors that seriously compromise REAL throughput black levels then I'll challenge his authority any day. Glare is a real problem for black levels using a screen with glass, as is reflection off the green phosphors themselves. Any ambient light compromises black levels seriously, if such black levels are extremely low.

So the 100,000:1 stat is meaningless for many applications, but yes will show up under very dark conditions. So this stat that has very limited application in real world use does not carry the weight that other specs have IMO.

rogo

10-25-06, 04:56 PM

"Conclusion:

CRT, Plasma & SED - Restricted Intensity / Color Gamut Phosphor Technologies - are future Low End niche players at best. "

I'm sorry but statements like these just brand you as ignorant.

LCDs are "fundamentally flawed" because there are not direct-illumination devices, they have lousy fill factors, etc. None of these problems are repairable. And yet LCDs are pretty good and doing well in the marketplace.

They also appear poised to >>not eliminate<< competitive technologies like PDP and SED.

Blanket statements about everything else being relegated to the low end by a technology virtually zero videophiles currently consider competitive (TFT-LCD) is fanboyism at best and patent ignorance at worst.

Auditor55

10-25-06, 04:59 PM

I never see clay face on my Fujitsus and false contouring is so rare on my sets, it would be way way way down on my wish list for improvements. ;)

You may not see those artifacts but many people do and they are inherent in PDP technology.

astrobuf

10-25-06, 05:01 PM

greenland

10-25-06, 05:31 PM

I had the chance to be at CEATEC in Tokyo two weeks ago. Got to personally witness the Canon 55" FED demo and was suitably impressed. Sporting a 50,000:1 DRCR, and outstanding display quality (though we were kept 2-5Meters away), I thought SED might have a bright future.

I next went over to the Pioneer display booth. Pioneer was showing a 32" resolution FHD PDP (120micron sub-pixel) of 17" diagonal size. It looked to be of production quality, excellent CR, color gamut and brightness. At 120micron sub-pixel pitch, this device foreshadows a 4000x2000 line PDP of 50-60" in the not too distant future.

Finally, I went into the Pioneer demo booth and got to see their 8th Gen PDP compared to a large current production LCD, both about 50" in size. To say the least, I was stunned by the next gen Pioneer PDP blacklevels. They were as good as the SED had appeared when I visited there. Pioneer spec'd their DRCR at 25,000:1.

With this demo, my conclusion is that the SED will have a tough time finding enough advantage vs PDP to gain much market energy. SED may end up being still born, a great idea that never gains traction and enough industrial infrastructure to compete ala Beta vs VHS.

The best potential for FED technology in the short term may prove to be to replace the CCFL and/or LED BLU for LCD displays, at least there they are sure to have a good value proposition.

Astrobuf

Astrobuff. Did you pick up any detailed specs on the SED or other panels. Did you get any SED info on what it will weigh, and did you notice any reflections. Also, did they show it only in a darkroom, or were you also able to see one in a daytime setting. Also, did you hear anything about if they are going to bring the 55inch panel to the upcoming CES in January.
I hope that SED becomes viable, but on the other hand if the effort is forcing the Plasma Industry to raise their standard to compete, then SED will pay off for us in an other way. In reality, as great as the SED promise appears to be, if Pioneer Plasma is close to the same standards in 2008 or 2009 I will probably opt for the Plasma since it has had many generations of research and perfecting behind it, and a first generation anything, including SED, is a high stakes gamble on the consumer's part.

vtms

10-25-06, 05:38 PM

They need to get that technology to the market. Current LCD technology is just unacceptable to me.

It's unacceptable to me now as well, but let me give you a peek into the future...
http://forum.hometheatermag.com/photopost/data/504/Planar_LED_LCD_Prototype_LEFT_2.jpg

Believe it or not, these are the same LCD panels except the one on the left is powered by LED-BLU. Now, that is the kind of LCD that SED will be competing against when Cannon & Toshiba finally brings SED to the market and if the price is lower for the LCD, I'm probably going for the LCD (better blacks, better color gamut, better contrast, no more motion blur, no reflection).

D-Nice

10-25-06, 05:51 PM

Wow, another SED thread.

Great stuff here. So SED has offcially dethroned the BD Disc as "the second coming of Jesus" king?

We shall see if this "second coming" is a 1980's Mike Tyson or if it will need help like guys that use Viagra.

Auditor55

10-25-06, 07:13 PM

It's unacceptable to me now as well, but let me give you a peek into the future...

Believe it or not, these are the same LCD panels except the one on the left is powered by LED-BLU. Now, that is the kind of LCD that SED will be competing against when Cannon & Toshiba finally brings SED to the market and if the price is lower for the LCD, I'm probably going for the LCD (better blacks, better color gamut, better contrast, no more motion blur, no reflection).

I'm going SED because LCD is what it is, digital looking for the most part and don't care what kind of face lift they try to give it. LCD had its chance to win the hearts of videophiles and it failed.

Ken Ross

10-25-06, 07:48 PM

The text is a rather technical description. But it does list some advantages. They are listed in this order:

- fast video response
- high contrast
- low power consumption

Plasmas do not have a problem with response time period. "High contrast" again gets down to black levels. How do you improve CRs? You either raise brightness, lower black levels or do both. I can't make that any clearer. Since once again brightness is NOT an issue with any of today's display technologies, it again gets down to black levels as the main advantage of SEDs. Sorry Madshi, logic points only in that direction. As I've said before, that advantage too will be wiped out as black levels on plasmas come down to an area where further reduction just doesn't mean that much. We shall agree to disagree.

Ken Ross

10-25-06, 07:51 PM

You may not see those artifacts but many people do and they are inherent in PDP technology.

Did I say I never see them? No! Did I say that it occurs so seldom as to essentially be a non-issue? Yes! Did I say improvements in this area on a display like the Fujitsu does next to nothing for me? Yes. And let me ask you this Auditor: Are you aware that false contouring is sometimes within the source itself? I've got some DVDs to prove that. I've put the same DVD on my plasma and my 34" Panasonic CRT HDTV and have seen false contouring on both displays in precisely the same scene....thus it is in the SOURCE. I know many of you SED guys would jump so high you'd hit your head on the ceiling if I showed you that scene on the plasma without showing you the same scene on a CRT.

So what happens when you get your SED that has no false contouring and then see false contouring? Good luck.

Ken Ross

10-25-06, 07:59 PM

Finally, I went into the Pioneer demo booth and got to see their 8th Gen PDP compared to a large current production LCD, both about 50" in size. To say the least, I was stunned by the next gen Pioneer PDP blacklevels. They were as good as the SED had appeared when I visited there. Pioneer spec'd their DRCR at 25,000:1.

With this demo, my conclusion is that the SED will have a tough time finding enough advantage vs PDP to gain much market energy. SED may end up being still born, a great idea that never gains traction and enough industrial infrastructure to compete ala Beta vs VHS.

Thank you. Maybe I won't have to hit my head against the wall so hard now....nah, just wishful thinking. :rolleyes:

Brian P. Hearon

10-25-06, 08:50 PM

CNET reported on October 2, in an interview with Toshiba that SED would have a contrast ratio of 50,000:1 and a life of 30,000 hours. This longevity seems short of what plasma currently promises.

http://news.com.com/Toshiba+set+to+build+55-inch+SED+TVs/2100-1041_3-6122031.html

vtms

10-25-06, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by astrobuf
Finally, I went into the Pioneer demo booth and got to see their 8th Gen PDP compared to a large current production LCD, both about 50" in size. To say the least, I was stunned by the next gen Pioneer PDP blacklevels. They were as good as the SED had appeared when I visited there. Pioneer spec'd their DRCR at 25,000:1.

With this demo, my conclusion is that the SED will have a tough time finding enough advantage vs PDP to gain much market energy. SED may end up being still born, a great idea that never gains traction and enough industrial infrastructure to compete ala Beta vs VHS.
Thank you. Maybe I won't have to hit my head against the wall so hard now....nah, just wishful thinking.

Well, that's different than someone simply speculating about plasma being close to SED in terms of PQ. Astrobuf actually saw both SED and new PDP and did not detect a difference between the quality. That counts.

So, if PDPs and LCDs will have a similar or better PQ than SED in 2008, it looks more and more like SED will have an almost impossible task of surviving in such a competitive market, especially considering endless delays and the fact that SED Inc. doesn't want to license the technology to other companies. It's a shame.

GmanAVS

10-25-06, 10:20 PM

So let me get this straight, after reading 174 posts non stop, I conclude that by the time I'm ready to trash my plasma for a new display in 2008, SED will be the new sliced bread... but wait, plasma will have matched it in blacks and so will LCD (LCD-Blue). Everything will be true 1080p (if not higher). Projectors will always beat out all displays because there is no glass. Color rendition will be more accurate than ever.

Basically 4 formats competing for my $$ and visual pleasure, what more could I wish for? Ahh yes, content and a delivery system to match.

Thanks for posting all the information possible and all the subjective or objective reviews...... makes me a more informed consumer.

DIPHONIC

10-26-06, 12:53 AM

I don't see any use for wider color space, colors of which my eyes will not detect.

The difference is not subtle. nature scenes come alive with Wide Color Gamut:
Poppys, flower petals, Lava Lamps ;) !
Most consumer CRTs have really lousy reds !

Whites look better with Wide Color Gamut too: Snow, Ice, sand

ASIANS are into colors more than we are in the West, that's why they're crazy for
LED Backlighting LCDs right now. I don't think there's any turning back now.
I might buy one of those LED DLPs to watch until LED LCD ramps up.

WAITING for LED LCD :)

astrobuf

10-26-06, 01:06 AM

Let's not get tooo excited about this demo. While it is correct that these two displays use the same panels, the back-light technology is drastically different. Simply using an LED backlight will do nothing for black levels. LED backlights only offer the potential for increased color gamut, adjustable luminosity and faster blink rates.

1.) The color gamut enhancement is a good thing and counters the weakness of CCFL's
2.) The adjustable luminosity enables the frame controller to dim the BLU when the image APL is low and raise the BLU luminosity level when the APL is high. This provides potential "contrast ratio" improvement between frames, but does nothing for high dynamic range images. Imagine a demo fo night sky fireworks, the human eye is able to detect a CR of the order of 100,000:1 in a scene such as this. LCD's will likely never achive this, at least not economically.
3.) Fast blink rates attempt to "bandaid" the inherent pixle latency of the LCD displays. They do so however at a significant cost in display durability and source lifetime!

Probably the most clever fix to this CR achilles heal of LCD's is that developed by Brightside technologies. (brightsidetech). Brightside (and other recent arrivals) use a 2D array of LED's for the backlight. The problem is, for large displays, say 40-60", you need 4000-8000 LED's, presently they cost about $1 each installed! Expect displays incorporating 100's of LED's instead, but this will lead to poor performance for all but staged demos matching the LED array geometry!

Even imagining a 10cent LED and attempting a BLU of 4000 - 8000 sources still leaves you with a BLU that costs $500 - $1000, not viable in this business.

Emissive displays such as PDP and SED do not suffer these problems (they have others though!) and will likely hold the high ground vs the LCD onslaught, at least for those consumers that care about image quality.

Astrobuf's 2cents

DIPHONIC

10-26-06, 01:10 AM

"

LCDs are "fundamentally flawed" because there are not direct-illumination devices, they have lousy fill factors, .

Weak counterarguments -- LED-LCDs are really going to surprise in the near future.
Who cares if they still won't have ruler-straight Gamma, the pictures look subjectively better.

One thing I'll say for SED is I like its simplicity & potential ease of fabrication compared to Plasma.
They may have a future in the Mid-Level market sector but will not be able to compete
with LED-LCD or Laser DLP for PQ.

LED not SED :)

astrobuf

10-26-06, 01:23 AM

Astrobuff. Did you pick up any detailed specs on the SED or other panels. Did you get any SED info on what it will weigh, and did you notice any reflections. Also, did they show it only in a darkroom, or were you also able to see one in a daytime setting. Also, did you hear anything about if they are going to bring the 55inch panel to the upcoming CES in January.
I hope that SED becomes viable, but on the other hand if the effort is forcing the Plasma Industry to raise their standard to compete, then SED will pay off for us in an other way. In reality, as great as the SED promise appears to be, if Pioneer Plasma is close to the same standards in 2008 or 2009 I will probably opt for the Plasma since it has had many generations of research and perfecting behind it, and a first generation anything, including SED, is a high stakes gamble on the consumer's part.
Expect the SED displays to be at least as heavy as PDP's, probably heavier. The basic design of all FED devices requires that a very high vacuum be maintained in the display envelope. Spec's of 10E-8 to 10E-9 Torr are required to ensure the durability of the display. This leads to the need to use heavy glass. 2 sheets @ 2.8mm think is presently spec'd.

PDP TV's presently use 2.8mm glass for the back panel and 1.8mm glass for the front. Some manufactureres use a third sheet for the IR/EMI filter as well. I'd imagine 3 sheet PDP's would weigh the same as a 2 sheet SED/FED display. A two sheet PDP would weigh about 10# less at 42".

The SED demo was staged in a darkened theater. the front panels seem to have some sort of antireflection coating on them. As is typical for any emissive device, I'd expect the SED to look poor in a high ambient (Best Buy/Circuit City) light environment.

Power spec's were not cited, but in general the SED should have about twice the luminous efficiency of present best in class (Pioneer) PDP's. Pioneer is running at about 2.2lm/W for their gen 7 sets. I'd expect SED is closer to 5lm/W at present. Both have the potential to increase efficiency by 10X over time.

I am certain they will bring the demo to CES. There was a second tradeshow in Tokyo last week, FPD International (actually in Yokohama) and the same demo (3 55" SED's were shown there. Canon/Toshiba have been at CES for the last three years, but there demos have been by invitation only. I expect the CEATEC/FPD Intl demo booth will eb publically open at CES.

I have photos fo CEATEC and FPD Intl. that I'd post if the forum moderator would grant me the privledge now!

Astrobuf

madshi

10-26-06, 02:50 AM

Plasmas do not have a problem with response time period.
They do period.

If you have a very fast camera pan on your plasma, does the image look like there'd be someone standing with a big poster in his hand, moving the poster around? That's how the perfect display should behave. I've never ever seen any plasma show a perfect sharp image in fast movement like that. Sure, it's noticably better than most of today's LCDs in movement. But it's not perfect sharpness in movement. If you think otherwise, you might want to have your eyes checked. Plasma just can't hold up 100% the same image quality when there's fast movement due to how plasma works. Pulsating pixels mean that there's a specific time needed to draw a pixel with the exact color value it's supposed to have. When there's fast movement, there's just not enough time to perfectly draw each pixel. Some electronics (e.g. Fujitsu's) might hide this problem better than others. But still it's a basic problem of plasma technology. Plasma might solve this sooner or later by further accelerating the pulsating speed. But today's plasma glass isn't fast enough for that yet. Or otherwise we'd have no false contouring nor any solarization in ANY plasma based on the same glass. Current Panasonic plasmas do show false contouring. Fujitsus are based on the same glass. They may hide it more cleverly, but still it's obvious that Panasonic's glass today isn't fast enough yet.

"High contrast" again gets down to black levels.
Of course, never said it didn't. My point was that it's only one of the advantages being listed on Canon's SED page - and not even the first one listed.

rogo

10-26-06, 08:07 AM

"One thing I'll say for SED is I like its simplicity & potential ease of fabrication compared to Plasma."

Laughable. Whatever breakthrough they may have made in the past 3 months that moved SED from "not manufacturable at a reasonable price" to "plausible" has not been released. You know nothing about the fabbing. Hell, Toshiba and Canon know little. Most of the fabbing processes have never been done before and certainly not for this purpose.

As for ease of fabbing, LCDs are one of the most complex things in the known universe. And yet they are awfully cheap -- when produced in huge quantities.

LED LCDs, fwiw, are a solution to only some LCD problems but hey, at least they cost a ton and consume ungodly amounts of power.

Oh, and the horrendous fill factor of LCDs is not going away. And yet for most people, it's not noticeable at viewing distances. Kinda like the other 900 problems AVSers see that other don't. Kinda why SED's "advantages" can only carry it so far in the marketplace.

greenland

10-26-06, 10:35 AM

Expect the SED displays to be at least as heavy as PDP's, probably heavier. The basic design of all FED devices requires that a very high vacuum be maintained in the display envelope. Spec's of 10E-8 to 10E-9 Torr are required to ensure the durability of the display. This leads to the need to use heavy glass. 2 sheets @ 2.8mm think is presently spec'd.

PDP TV's presently use 2.8mm glass for the back panel and 1.8mm glass for the front. Some manufactureres use a third sheet for the IR/EMI filter as well. I'd imagine 3 sheet PDP's would weigh the same as a 2 sheet SED/FED display. A two sheet PDP would weigh about 10# less at 42".

The SED demo was staged in a darkened theater. the front panels seem to have some sort of antireflection coating on them. As is typical for any emissive device, I'd expect the SED to look poor in a high ambient (Best Buy/Circuit City) light environment.

Power spec's were not cited, but in general the SED should have about twice the luminous efficiency of present best in class (Pioneer) PDP's. Pioneer is running at about 2.2lm/W for their gen 7 sets. I'd expect SED is closer to 5lm/W at present. Both have the potential to increase efficiency by 10X over time.

I am certain they will bring the demo to CES. There was a second tradeshow in Tokyo last week, FPD International (actually in Yokohama) and the same demo (3 55" SED's were shown there. Canon/Toshiba have been at CES for the last three years, but there demos have been by invitation only. I expect the CEATEC/FPD Intl demo booth will eb publically open at CES.

I have photos fo CEATEC and FPD Intl. that I'd post if the forum moderator would grant me the privledge now!

Astrobuf

Thanks very much for the in depth reply. It is very informative. I have often wondered about the glass strength required because of the high vacuum space. I believe that once you get to five postings you will be able to post the pictures, so if you just throw in a couple of brief posts about the plasmas, on their threads, you will be able to add your pictures to this thread. When you do, please include any pictures that you have of the Plasma displays also, so that we can get a comparison sense of what you described, or at least as much as pictures are able to convey. Thanks again.

markrubin

10-26-06, 10:37 AM

I have photos fo CEATEC and FPD Intl. that I'd post if the forum moderator would grant me the privledge now!

Astrobuf

once you have 5 posts you can put up photos

Welcome to AVS :)

dmcmahon

10-26-06, 11:28 AM

LED LCDs, fwiw, are a solution to only some LCD problems but hey, at least they cost a ton and consume ungodly amounts of power.

Oh, and the horrendous fill factor of LCDs is not going away. And yet for most people, it's not noticeable at viewing distances. Kinda like the other 900 problems AVSers see that other don't. Kinda why SED's "advantages" can only carry it so far in the marketplace.

I was hoping the LED backlights would consume less power, not more. LED lighting is used now in place of incandescent in things like the tail lights of hybrid cars. LED bulbs to replace CFL bulbs is often talked about as well.

You call the fill factor of LCD "horrendous", but compared to what? To my eye sitting smack in front of an LCD panel the pixel structure is tighter than any other non-projection display technology I've looked at. The structure on plasmas is much more noticeable. Even CRTs have bigger spaces between pixels due to the shadow mask or aperture grill. This is certainly a non-problem even for videophiles at normal viewing distances. I'll take the "horrendous" fill factor over the wishy-washy images I see from rear-projectors any day. Plus, won't SED also have some level of cell structure visible up close?

CruelInventions

10-26-06, 12:06 PM

You call the fill factor of LCD "horrendous", but compared to what? To my eye sitting smack in front of an LCD panel the pixel structure is tighter than any other non-projection display technology I've looked at.

I'm confused by this as well, for the same reason. I've seen others talk about the poor fill factor for LCDs and wondered what they've meant, so I'm interested in getting a clarification about this (from anyone).

Auditor55

10-26-06, 12:18 PM

mod: post deleted

challenge the information: not the poster

Auditor55

10-26-06, 12:28 PM

I'm confused by this as well, for the same reason. I've seen others talk about the poor fill factor for LCDs and wondered what they've meant, so I'm interested in getting a clarification about this (from anyone).

Fill Factor is an issue with Plasma as well as LCD.

Zues

10-26-06, 12:31 PM

The difference is not subtle. nature scenes come alive with Wide Color Gamut:
Poppys, flower petals, Lava Lamps ;) !
Most consumer CRTs have really lousy reds !

Whites look better with Wide Color Gamut too: Snow, Ice, sand

ASIANS are into colors more than we are in the West, that's why they're crazy for
LED Backlighting LCDs right now. I don't think there's any turning back now.
I might buy one of those LED DLPs to watch until LED LCD ramps up.

WAITING for LED LCD :)

How about green? Phosphor based tv's can display DARK green as well as other shades,tones, brilliantly and very realistic. Lcd can only do neon looking greens. LED has not proven nothing ,and i highly doubt it can compare to phosphor based tv.

Zues

10-26-06, 12:50 PM

Did I say I never see them? No! Did I say that it occurs so seldom as to essentially be a non-issue? Yes! Did I say improvements in this area on a display like the Fujitsu does next to nothing for me? Yes. And let me ask you this Auditor: Are you aware that false contouring is sometimes within the source itself? I've got some DVDs to prove that. I've put the same DVD on my plasma and my 34" Panasonic CRT HDTV and have seen false contouring on both displays in precisely the same scene....thus it is in the SOURCE. I know many of you SED guys would jump so high you'd hit your head on the ceiling if I showed you that scene on the plasma without showing you the same scene on a CRT.

So what happens when you get your SED that has no false contouring and then see false contouring? Good luck.

This is my biggest gripe with plasma, second would be the dlp like rainbow effect.
I dont know how fujitsu fares, but i've read the avm processor does not live up to the hype that fujitsu claims. Since sed is totaly different tech, i dont think it will have false contouring, dithering, actual looking rainbow colors that plasma displays... Yea i dont see it either on most high quality dvd's. Its a annoyance though. Same with noise, noisy dvd's seemed to be enhanced by plasma....

Does anyone know if SED will be a true digital device, or analog?

Auditor55

10-26-06, 01:15 PM

I thought this was the SED Information thread. The use of the word "stillborn" to discribe SED in this thread is not very informative. From all the most recent news coming from the SED camp, the overwhelming evidences shows that Toshiba Canon is moving forward with SED, to me and to many videophiles this is good news.

What previously held SED back was production issues and rapid decline in the prices of plasma and LCD, this admittedly caused a delay in SED coming to the market, now it seems those issues for the most part have been resolved.

Everyone in the industry, not just enthusiasts, who have seen SED was blown away (I hate those terms) and I have yet to read any reports from anyone from the video media who makes a living reporting on this stuff believes that any current display technology equals SED.

I and others have posted pics and side by side comparisons of SED vs current display technology that demonstrate SED's primary advantage, black level. We have posted numerous accounts of eye witness testimony from those in the industry its always unanimous, SED is stupendous.

Plasma's along with LCD's have many problems that SED won't have like response time issues, fill factor, dithering, internal relfections, energy consumption
so on and so forth.

I read one expert eye witness discribe SED looking as if each pixel was tiny little picture tube.

Auditor55

10-26-06, 01:21 PM

This is my biggest gripe with plasma, second would be the dlp like rainbow effect.
I dont know how fujitsu fares, but i've read the avm processor does not live up to the hype that fujitsu claims. Since sed is totaly different tech, i dont think it will have false contouring, dithering, actual looking rainbow colors that plasma displays... Yea i dont see it either on most high quality dvd's. Its a annoyance though. Same with noise, noisy dvd's seemed to be enhanced by plasma....

Does anyone know if SED will be a true digital device, or analog?

Here are some comments made by Dr. Raymond Soneira regarding SED.

Potentially the most interesting is the Canon-Toshiba Surface-conduction Electron-emitter Display, SED, which is a very thin (under 1 centimeter) CRT-like phosphor-based display technology. It has digitally addressed pixels, however, the brightness of each pixel is produced through an analog process, so it should be free of the digital artifacts present in plasma and DLP displays, which have digital on-off intensity controls produced with pulse width modulation (see Part III). In this regard SED is very similar to LCoS. As an emissive technology, SED already produces CRT-like black levels, with contrast ratios in the 10,000 to 100,000 range (much better than plasma because it doesn't need to maintain a background level for priming the discharge). The response time is speced at 1ms, which is very fast.

greenland

10-26-06, 01:25 PM

Does anyone know if SED will be a true digital device, or analog?

It would appear that it would have to be digital. It dedicates an individual(dedicated) electron emitter to each pixel. That would require it to signal every one of the 1080P pixels on an individual basis. I would think that would have to be done on a digital basis.

Zues

10-26-06, 01:30 PM

Auditor55

10-26-06, 01:44 PM

greenland

10-26-06, 01:46 PM

Auditor55

10-26-06, 01:47 PM

It would appear that it would have to be digital. It dedicates an individual(dedicated) electron emitter to each pixel. That would require it to signal every one of the 1080P pixels on an individual basis. I would think that would have to be done on a digital basis.

Yes and according to Dr. Soneira, the brightness of each pixel is addressed through analog process which will eliminate plasma type artifacts.

Auditor55

10-26-06, 01:49 PM

Zues

10-26-06, 01:56 PM

Sony has not got any dog in the SED fight. Toshiba and Canon are not going to help one of the major competitors by giving them access to their SED patents.

Sony looks like a company that is living on past reputation, and not really all that big a deal any more

If they offer toshiba enough money anything possible :D Does toshiba plan to be the only seller of SED?

Sony reputation is still high for me as far as tv know how.. The options on xbrs are still the best imo.

TonPalmans

10-26-06, 02:07 PM

I think SONY needs to invest in sed. Sxrd and lcd is a dead end imo.
Toshiba? I would never buy no toshiba crt tube. Even with current crt technology toshiba cant make the picture look as good as sony XBR can.. Sony needs to get in the ball game with sed. They already avoided plasma which was a mistake..
And how should they do that, given that Canon/Toshiba aren't licensing the technology?

As promising as SED is on PQ-level, it may fail at the economic realities of markets. All the videophiles in the world aren't enough to make a whole technology economicly viable. They can make a small quality brand within a technology viable - SIM for example - but not a technology as a whole.

It is difficult for a technology to pull through market wise if it isn't an industry standard among all the mayor players on the mass consumer market. Furthermore, the bulk of the world market is geared for 42" or less - due to the average housing conditions - and a relatively small part to really larges sizes. The US will do somewhat better on the latter because they have above average living rooms - and above average wealth - but it still will not be an earth shattering marketshare.

The big profits are in the big numbers, so in quantity of sales. I am worried that if Canon/Toshiba consede <42" and below to LCD, or wait to long to penetrate that market, that SED will become a showcase technology only. I don't understand why they don't push fast and agressivly first in the mass market segment (<42") instead of starting with 55". Apart from the very small numbers videophiles are comprised of, publicity wise they are also irrelevant.

I like SED to happen. I still hang on to my CRT because the current new tv's do not meet my standards. But I am very worried on SED on the marketside of things.

PS
Sony did not avoid plasma afaik, but dropped it. And rightfully so if mass markets are your priority. SXRD is a nice showcase technology, but economicly not very relevant.

CruelInventions

10-26-06, 02:07 PM

Fill Factor is an issue with Plasma as well as LCD.

well, that's a given, or at least, more obvious to me the closer you get to a plasma, the exact degree dependent on it's native resolution, of course. I don't really notice it on LCDs though, hence, my confusion about LCDs supposed fill factor problem. I assume you guys are saying that even if LCD might be better than plasmas in this regard, it still could be better?

Everyone in the industry, not just enthusiasts, who have seen SED was blown away (I hate those terms) and I have yet to read any reports from anyone from the video media who makes a living reporting on this stuff believes that any current display technology equals SED.

Well, just a few posts ago, astrobuf stated that while SED was indeed impressive, it wasn't blowing away the newest Pioneer Plasma technology. His exact words, "Finally, I went into the Pioneer demo booth and got to see their 8th Gen PDP compared to a large current production LCD, both about 50" in size. To say the least, I was stunned by the next gen Pioneer PDP blacklevels. They were as good as the SED had appeared when I visited there. Pioneer spec'd their DRCR at 25,000:1.

With this demo, my conclusion is that the SED will have a tough time finding enough advantage vs PDP to gain much market energy. SED may end up being still born, a great idea that never gains traction and enough industrial infrastructure to compete ala Beta vs VHS."

Of course, this is merely one mans opinion, but he doesn't appear to be a raving ideologue who is substantially biased when it comes to comparing panel technologies. More importantly, assuming he is not an "expert", his opinion could be much more valuable in terms of representing the average potential customer.

aud19

10-26-06, 02:42 PM

Toshiba? I would never buy no toshiba crt tube.

Back in the good old CRT days Toshiba was actually a major manufacturer/supplier of high quality and VERY well regarded CRT's....before they started outsourcing them for their TV's ;)

In fact, I believe one of the most highly regarded CRT monitors ever made, the Princeton AR3.4FTW used Toshiba tubes unless I'm mistaken.

Auditor55

10-26-06, 02:58 PM

well, that's a given, or at least, more obvious to me the closer you get to a plasma, the exact degree dependent on it's native resolution, of course. I don't really notice it on LCDs though, hence, my confusion about LCDs supposed fill factor problem. I assume you guys are saying that even if LCD might be better than plasmas in this regard, it still could be better?

Well, just a few posts ago, astrobuf stated that while SED was indeed impressive, it wasn't blowing away the newest Pioneer Plasma technology. His exact words, "Finally, I went into the Pioneer demo booth and got to see their 8th Gen PDP compared to a large current production LCD, both about 50" in size. To say the least, I was stunned by the next gen Pioneer PDP blacklevels. They were as good as the SED had appeared when I visited there. Pioneer spec'd their DRCR at 25,000:1.

With this demo, my conclusion is that the SED will have a tough time finding enough advantage vs PDP to gain much market energy. SED may end up being still born, a great idea that never gains traction and enough industrial infrastructure to compete ala Beta vs VHS."

Of course, this is merely one mans opinion, but he doesn't appear to be a raving ideologue who is substantially biased when it comes to comparing panel technologies. More importantly, assuming he is not an "expert", his opinion could be much more valuable in terms of representing the average potential customer.

When I read a word like "stillborn" being used to discribe the future of SED by someone in the SED thread, I'm very skeptical about that reporting. Also, any video expert know that isn't proper way compare display technolgies, as set forth aforementioned post. Considering the fact the other experts in the industry that get paid to cover this stuff all the time, who also attended that event, still came away showering praise upon SED over and above everything else.

I read that, even though there was other technologies being presented at that event, the biggest buzz was for SED, everyone was waiting to see SED.

I'm quite board with plasma and LCD. :(

Ken Ross

10-26-06, 03:04 PM

My point was that it's only one of the advantages being listed on Canon's SED page - and not even the first one listed.

And my point is that as far as most videophiles are concerned, it IS the black issue that makes SED interesting. I don't recall one plasma owner saying "gee, I've got to get rid of my plasma due to image retention issues". Madshi, you can pick apart ANY display with inherent issues of one type or another, but the real issue is what becomes distracting and detracts from the viewing experience. I contend it is not image retention with plasmas and you're beating a dead horse if you think that's the case. It is the black levels pure and simple. If you think otherwise we shall agree to disagree. And the issue of blacks will most probably not be an issue with plasmas by the time SEDs are readily available. Of course if you prefer to pick on an issue you 'think' SED will still have an advantage with relative to plasmas at the time of its release, even if discriminating plasma owners don't think that's an issue, that's your choice.

I will also say that if SEDs are going to relay on image retention for their selling point (based on the new plasmas that will be out by that time), they'll sell about a half dozen.

Ken Ross

10-26-06, 03:09 PM

This is my biggest gripe with plasma, second would be the dlp like rainbow effect.
I dont know how fujitsu fares, but i've read the avm processor does not live up to the hype that fujitsu claims. Since sed is totaly different tech, i dont think it will have false contouring, dithering, actual looking rainbow colors that plasma displays... Yea i dont see it either on most high quality dvd's. Its a annoyance though. Same with noise, noisy dvd's seemed to be enhanced by plasma....

Does anyone know if SED will be a true digital device, or analog?

I know that a few people seem to see 'rainbows' with plasmas, but I guess I'm in the overwhelming majority of plasma owners that have never once seen a rainbow on them....other than Discovery HD.

What you read about the AVM processor was in one review and that review runs counter to every other review I've ever read on the Fujitsu. But hey, I don't really put much stock in reviews to begin with....but I do put all my stock in what my eyes tell me. ;)

greenland

10-26-06, 03:22 PM

I will also say that if SEDs are going to relay on image retention for their selling point (based on the new plasmas that will be out by that time), they'll sell about a half dozen.

"Sell about a half dozen". What are you implying?. Are you intimating that Auditor55 is going to engage in SED hoarding?. ;)

CruelInventions

10-26-06, 03:33 PM

I'm quite board with plasma and LCD. :(

you don't say!?!? :rolleyes: :p

rogo

10-26-06, 03:44 PM

"I was hoping the LED backlights would consume less power, not more. LED lighting is used now in place of incandescent in things like the tail lights of hybrid cars. LED bulbs to replace CFL bulbs is often talked about as well.'

Sadly, LEDs power pigs vs. the CCFLs used in existing TFT-LCDs.

"You call the fill factor of LCD "horrendous", but compared to what? "

I'm not sure what the fill is on current TFT panes, but on HTPS LCD microdisplays its 50-60% (my best Googling indicates the big flat panels are in the same universe). On SXRD projection sets it's 93-94%. DLP is around 90%.

rogo

10-26-06, 03:46 PM

"well, that's a given, or at least, more obvious to me the closer you get to a plasma, the exact degree dependent on it's native resolution, of course. I don't really notice it on LCDs though, hence, my confusion about LCDs supposed fill factor problem. I assume you guys are saying that even if LCD might be better than plasmas in this regard, it still could be better?"

Yes, that's what I'm saying at least. Plasma fill factor is even more horrendous than LCD, where I use horrendous as an objective measure of the plausible (if not the the currently practical).

CruelInventions

10-26-06, 03:51 PM

gotcha. thanks rogomaestro. ;)

TNG

10-26-06, 04:06 PM

madshi

10-26-06, 04:10 PM

I contend it is not image retention with plasmas and you're beating a dead horse if you think that's the case.
Where in this thread have I ever talked about image retention!? :confused:

It is the black levels pure and simple. If you think otherwise we shall agree to disagree.
Yes.

Of course if you prefer to pick on an issue you 'think' SED will still have an advantage with relative to plasmas at the time of its release, even if discriminating plasma owners don't think that's an issue, that's your choice.
You're trying to push me into a "I must argue until I find a reason why I can dismiss plasma and push SED" corner. That's not where I am. Instead I think you're in the "I don't see any obvious potential for improvement in my plasma (apart from black level), so there CANNOT be any noticable improvement in future" corner. And I think that might be a bit short sighted.

Ken Ross

10-26-06, 04:26 PM

When I read a word like "stillborn" being used to discribe the future of SED by someone in the SED thread, I'm very skeptical about that reporting. Also, any video expert know that isn't proper way compare display technolgies, as set forth aforementioned post. Considering the fact the other experts in the industry that get paid to cover this stuff all the time, who also attended that event, still came away showering praise upon SED over and above everything else.

I read that, even though there was other technologies being presented at that event, the biggest buzz was for SED, everyone was waiting to see SED.

:(

Here's the problem you have to come to grips with in this SED vs the world idea. First, the average Joe will not see the advantage of SED period. By the time SED is released, plasma will have very nearly equal black levels so that almost nobody will be able to see the difference and SEDs will have no price advantage and more than likely a price disadvantage. Second, a huge % of buyers tend to be brand loyal. They will not buy a Toshiba/Canon product in the display technology field. They will continue to buy Sonys, Panasonics, Sharps etc.....especially when they don't see much of a PQ advantage to begin with.

I just don't see how SEDs will ever take over the marketplace when you factor in those issues.

Ken Ross

10-26-06, 04:37 PM

Where in this thread have I ever talked about image retention!? :confused:

Yes.

You're trying to push me into a "I must argue until I find a reason why I can dismiss plasma and push SED" corner. That's not where I am. Instead I think you're in the "I don't see any obvious potential for improvement in my plasma (apart from black level), so there CANNOT be any noticable improvement in future" corner. And I think that might be a bit short sighted.

First, I was wrong, I meant to say 'response time'. Second, I could care less if some other technology 'beats' my plasma....I welcome it with open arms. However you are correct, the main 'flaw' I see in most plasmas is still black levels. We'll disagree on response time since I and most plasma owners never considered this an issue. So for us, the needed improvements are more about resolution, size and black levels. SED will offer no size advantage but will offer full 1080p...that's a good thing, but other technologies offer that too. It will have great black levels, but by that time so will plasmas....at least some plasmas. So where does that leave me? Should I be excited just because it's a new technology? Nope, not me. Show me significant, visible improvements relative to other display technologies at the time of SED's release and then I'll get excited.

Unlike some, I tend to be more cautious and not jump on every new technology bandwagon. I can't tell you how many of these 'world beaters' have come and gone and never made it to production. With that said it looks as if SED will come to production, but for the reasons given above, I simply don't see the advantage once the new gen plasmas arrive with essentially equal black levels....or black levels so close they really can't be seen.

Just so you know Madshi, I am in the market for a large screen, 1080p display...so you can see I welcome improvement, I'm not 'protecting turf'. SED will obviously not fit that bill no matter what its PQ. 55" won't do it for me, but I'm sure it will for many others.

astrobuf

10-26-06, 04:49 PM

Sony has not got any dog in the SED fight. Toshiba and Canon are not going to help one of the major competitors by giving them access to their SED patents.
Sony is starting to look like they are in big trouble. They just reported a 94% drop in earnings for the past quarter. They are having all kinds of problems with their next playstation, and they do not pioneer much in the way of cutting edge technology. They have being getting their LCD panels from Samsung and are having problems getting a HD DVD player to market. Sony looks like a company that is living on past reputation, and not really all that big a deal anymore. When they finish paying the piper for all the defective batteries, and settle a lot of suits, they may remain as just a mere shadow of their former greatness.
Sony seems to have lost their way wrt TV and hardware. They abandoned PDP and instead decided to focus on projection? Good judgement don't you think! They have become fascinated with the software business to the detriment of their core business. The Ipod should have been a Sony invention. Sony's decision to source LCD modules from Samsung seems particularly foolish. Samsung and LG now own the LCD business and only Sharp remains as a viable Japanese supplier.

Since Sony seems to have no stomach for investment in real businesses, I think it highly unlikely that Sony will invest in SED licenses or production capability any time soon.

Astrobuf

aud19

10-26-06, 04:50 PM

I just want to point out that good blacks don't JUST mean low blacks, proper shadow detail, no black "crush" etc are VERY important as well and SED apparently also excels in these respects....Anyone know how these new Pioneer's perform there? Does anyone know if these new Pioneer's are an evolution of their current plasmas or a new tech that's being applied to only their "high end units"...?

astrobuf

10-26-06, 04:56 PM

I was hoping the LED backlights would consume less power, not more. LED lighting is used now in place of incandescent in things like the tail lights of hybrid cars. LED bulbs to replace CFL bulbs is often talked about as well.

You call the fill factor of LCD "horrendous", but compared to what? To my eye sitting smack in front of an LCD panel the pixel structure is tighter than any other non-projection display technology I've looked at. The structure on plasmas is much more noticeable. Even CRTs have bigger spaces between pixels due to the shadow mask or aperture grill. This is certainly a non-problem even for videophiles at normal viewing distances. I'll take the "horrendous" fill factor over the wishy-washy images I see from rear-projectors any day. Plus, won't SED also have some level of cell structure visible up close?
LED's are used in automotive taillights because they do not burn out. They are more efficient than incandescent lighting (bulbs), but much less efficient than the fluorescent technology (CCFL, HCFL...) used in LCD displays at present.

Astrobuf

Auditor55

10-26-06, 06:13 PM

[QUOTE=Ken RossHere's the problem you have to come to grips with in this SED vs the world idea. First, the average Joe will not see the advantage of SED period.

I'm not really concerned with average Joe I'm more concerned with the state of display technology right now and right now its not the best that it can be.

By the time SED is released, plasma will have very nearly equal black levels so that almost nobody will be able to see the difference and SEDs will have no price advantage and more than likely a price disadvantage.

I don't think so, I believe once we see SED side by with the best of Plasma your view will change.

Second, a huge % of buyers tend to be brand loyal. They will not buy a Toshiba/Canon product in the display technology field. They will continue to buy Sonys, Panasonics, Sharps etc.....especially when they don't see much of a PQ advantage to begin with.

I guarantee you, once they see Toshiba/Canon SED their loyalies will change :)

I just don't see how SEDs will ever take over the marketplace when you factor in those issues

The only legitmate issue I see that will hinder SED from complete dominance initially is price. The PQ of SED will be supreme over plasma and LCD, this I have no doubt of.

Btw, although the 55 will be first size introduced to the market, I'm sure their will be larger as well as smaller sizes in future. SED is capable of LCD type screen sizes and well screens large enough to placed in sports arenas. SED is going to obsolete plasma based on its ability to implemented into cell phone type sizes, something PDP can't do. It will be out LCD on pure PQ alone.

rogo

10-26-06, 07:08 PM

Ken Ross

10-26-06, 07:32 PM

SED is going to obsolete plasma based on its ability to implemented into cell phone type sizes, something PDP can't do.

Gee, you mean like OLED? Everytime I see one of these 'world beaters' I laugh. Many, just like you with SED, were talking for years how that technology would obsolete everything else. You guys will eventually learn that saying a new technology will dominate and actually have it happen are two very very different things. The new OLED on my Tivo S3 is so 'great', it's tough to read unless I'm on top of it. The OLEDs on many watches stink.

So the bottom line is that you have no idea what will happen....we know what you'd like to happen, but that's no guarantee is it?

omeletpants

10-26-06, 07:34 PM

[QUOTE]. The only legitmate issue I see that will hinder SED from complete dominance initially is price. The PQ of SED will be supreme over plasma and LCD, this I have no doubt of.

Any guess on how this will impact SD (480i)? Will this be scaler dependent or will SED provide some inherent benefits on SD transmissions?

aud19

10-26-06, 08:19 PM

[QUOTE=Auditor55]

Any guess on how this will impact SD (480i)? Will this be scaler dependent or will SED provide some inherent benefits on SD transmissions?

That's more scaler dependant (internal or external) than display tech dependant IMO.

richard korsgren

10-26-06, 08:25 PM

In the tv industry, no one company gets a lead for very long, if ever. Competition is too keen. Right now, you can bet, plasma and lcd makers are planning answers to this SED and others. This is good for the consumers. it will give us better sets at lower prices. And, manufacturers will make money because they will sell more sets. But, you can bet, no one maufacturer will dominate. In the free enterprise system, it just does not work that way. Sad to say, what really sells tv sets (to the vast majority) is advertising and prices (sales).
Where I live, maybe 5 percent of the people are viewing HD content (and that could be high). They will buy HD sets when their present tvs die and, in some cases, that will be a number of years. Bottom line, bring on SED and other new displays; competition is great, for everyone in long run.

astrobuf

10-26-06, 10:30 PM

With regard to Sony and PDPs, they have not have any internal production of panels for years, if ever. Their decision to exit the PDP market was because as a panel buyer, you don't make much money. Their JV with Samsung let's them buy LCD panels at "cost" and make good profits on LCD TVs. Ditto their SXRD business.

More power to them.

The same logic is what motivates Toshiba to pursue SED.

More power to them as well.
Actually, the PDP / LCD supply chain works out soething like this:

Module Maker ~ 5-10% margin
Set Maker ~ 10-30% margin, strong brand > higher end
Retailer ~ 40% margin

So Sony seems to have outsourced the lowest cost element of their LCD supply to SDI and remains in control as a set maker and trades of their fading reputation. A good short term strategy, but seems to be running out of gas now.

Sony still makes their SXRD chips themselves. Go figure what the logic might be for continuing to invest in this dead end when the world seems to want flat, thin and high resolution

Astrobuf

astrobuf

10-26-06, 10:52 PM

So here is one of the FPD Intl (Yokohama) demo shots of the 55" SED vs an LCD TV

astrobuf

10-26-06, 10:54 PM

Here is the scene of the demo. Notice that no one was closer than about 2M. The demo was run with all lights off.

cajieboy

10-27-06, 01:55 AM

Sony has not got any dog in the SED fight. Toshiba and Canon are not going to help one of the major competitors by giving them access to their SED patents.
Sony is starting to look like they are in big trouble. They just reported a 94% drop in earnings for the past quarter. They are having all kinds of problems with their next playstation, and they do not pioneer much in the way of cutting edge technology. They have being getting their LCD panels from Samsung and are having problems getting a HD DVD player to market. Sony looks like a company that is living on past reputation, and not really all that big a deal anymore. When they finish paying the piper for all the defective batteries, and settle a lot of suits, they may remain as just a mere shadow of their former greatness.

Got to disagree...SED is a form of "FED", which Sony R&D has been working on for quite some time. So, perhaps we'll see a battle of the FED's in the future display tech wars. Sony's SXRD technology is sellnig like hotcakes, and outsells all other RPTV. Their line of LCD's is considered the best of the best, and are ramping up production as we speak...just in time for Christmas. As for HD-DVD, this is where Sony has a BIG DOG in this fight and its name is BLU-RAY...look for it soon in a home theater near you.

mark_1080p

10-27-06, 04:12 AM

Makes one wonder why Samsung ever got into the deal to begin with. Seems as if they are getting screwed, they put out a fine panel then Sony gets the credit. Perhaps they feared Sony would partner with LG.

madshi

10-27-06, 04:17 AM

We'll disagree on response time since I and most plasma owners never considered this an issue.
How do you know what "most plasma owners" think? Did you notice that there were some threads about seeing green flashes or rainbow like stuff on plasmas? Some people were bothered by that, others saw it but weren't bothered, others didn't see it. I believe many people are aware that their plasma is not perfect yet, while at the same time enjoying the plasma image and being satisfied.

But even *if* most plasma owners would think that their plasma PQ was perfect (apart from black level), as I said before, the point is that sometimes you don't know what you're missing until you've seen how much better things can be.

I've no problem if you are sceptical about SED. What is going on my nerves is that you've not seen SED personally yet, but at the same time you're so convinced that there's nothing SED can improve upon compared to your current plasma - except for black level. If you would just say "I'll reserve judgement until I've seen it for myself, but I doubt I'll see much of an improvement", that would be fine to me. But you're not reserving judgement. You're judging today - without having seen SED.

Just so you know Madshi, I am in the market for a large screen, 1080p display...so you can see I welcome improvement, I'm not 'protecting turf'. SED will obviously not fit that bill no matter what its PQ. 55" won't do it for me, but I'm sure it will for many others.
That's only fair. For my room 65" would be perfect. I think if SED ever makes it to market, we'll see bigger SED screens later, perhaps 2009 or 2010. Personally, I might skip first generation SED screens and buy one of those black level improved plasmas and wait until SED is proven, stable and available in bigger sizes.

BUYSED55

10-27-06, 09:16 AM

Good afternoon,
I am Italian , often i go to expert (a great store). Here there is a wall with many hd ready plasma and one lcd from samsung. Once you look at lcd because plasmas are darker than lcd but the colors of this tv a samsung 46 m51 lcd are terrifics; so i do not like plasma and i do not like lcd ;
oh yeah you can say these aren't latest tv for example pio ex 5000 or sharp and sony 1080P but i can reply to you with another tale.
I have read many people ordering latest sharp 1080p without seeing them, the price of these tv is very good only 3200/3500 euro for a 46 in italy is near half the price of the sony 46 x series ;
Now i read users unhappy of their new sharp tv for image quality; they are trying new settings reading american forums, others when see it in a shop go back to home with their money.
Pio ex 5000 today is better tv. Its price in Italy is 8700 euro but i think i (you) cannot buy it when i (you) think that it has burn in , little smearing ecc
Oh yeah you can say sed come in 2008 and in 2008 there are the new reference pio plasma seen at ceatec, led lcd ecc
Then i can say to you today i know sed is a tv like a crt with flat panel; this is the panel you are searching for ; why do you refuse the truth ?
Sed do not have burn in because crt do not have burn in STOP, pio reference plasma would have it
I have seen a photo of a led lcd trying to show deep blacks and whites what lough.
Finally there are some very very beautifull photo of sed on cinenow ... see it and then put plasma and led lcd in the trush

TNG

10-27-06, 10:32 AM

[QUOTE]
I'm not really concerned with average Joe I'm more concerned with the state of display technology right now and right now its not the best that it can be.

SED is capable of LCD type screen sizes and well screens large enough to placed in sports arenas. SED is going to obsolete plasma based on its ability to implemented into cell phone type sizes, something PDP can't do.

Remember that "the state of display technology" can always have room for improvement. In 10 years, will we be here discussing which new 3D system is best? Before you scoff at this, there is a group at Samsung that displayed this at SID this year.

As for screens for cell phones, I think that OLED will be the tech that is used more and more for the foreseeable future. It is much cheaper to produce than LCD and since the average lifetime for a cell phone is relatively short, and no one complains about the black levels on the screen of their phone, SED will probably never make any inroads to that market. Also since SED is owned by Tosh/Canon and they will charge for it, cell phone makers will probably not consider this.

For large screens (arena sized), it is anybodys guess, but this could be a possibility for SED.

TNG

10-27-06, 10:49 AM

Welcome to the Forum BUYSED55.

I just bought one of the new Sharp 52" LCD's. It will be delivered on Sunday. Yes there are many people who are complaining about this or that about it, but after spending hours looking at it and playing with it, I just don't see the problems that others see.

Everybody likes to say that SED will eat LCD/Plasma's lunch when it comes out. Well point is JSP will probably not care, and I am living proof of that. Remember that it is JSP that drives the current CE market, not people here or even the manufacturers of the products.

Got tired of waiting, figured the price would be to high, you name the reason, there are dozens of them for going with the current technology and JSP will determine if SED lives or dies.

greenland

10-27-06, 11:31 AM

Here is the scene of the demo. Notice that no one was closer than about 2M. The demo was run with all lights off.

Thanks for the pics. I had noticed that they always appear to have a very controlled staging of their demonstrations. Does the base of the panels seem as disconcerting when you view it in person, as it does in all the pictures that I have seen. It may be just me, but the base always seems to look out of place and rather odd shaped.
Did you manage to get any pictures, which you can post, of the Pioneer 25.000 to I Plasma panel.

Auditor55

10-27-06, 11:59 AM

mod

please limit posts to SED

Auditor55

10-27-06, 12:04 PM

[QUOTE=Auditor55]

Any guess on how this will impact SD (480i)? Will this be scaler dependent or will SED provide some inherent benefits on SD transmissions?

We will have to see how SED sets handles SD. But internal scaler capability doesn't have anything to do with SED technology itself.

astrobuf

10-27-06, 12:15 PM

Thanks for the pics. I had noticed that they always appear to have a very controlled staging of their demonstrations. Does the base of the panels seem as disconcerting when you view it in person, as it does in all the pictures that I have seen. It may be just me, but the base always seems to look out of place and rather odd shaped.
Did you manage to get any pictures, which you can post, of the Pioneer 25.000 to I Plasma panel.
Regretably, I do not have a photo of the Pioneer Gen 8. As you may recall, it was positioned next to a current production LCD.

The Pioneer booth and the Canon/Toshiba booth were quite a ways away from each other. There were long lines to see each if the demos, but the SED lines were the longest. Both asked that no photos be taken and so I have none of the Pioneer demos.

My calibrated eyes (I've looked at a lot of flat TV's as I work in the business) says that you cannot really tell the differnce betwen the black levels of the two devices.

Astrobuf

Auditor55

10-27-06, 12:26 PM

Ken RossGee, you mean like OLED?

I don't why you continue to compare SED to OLED and other failed display technologies. We have posted a vast amount of information in this thread that
shows the viability of SED. Again, SED is going to happen. According to press reports we are looking at 2007 for limited quanities of SED sets be available in Japan and a then full production of SED sets for 2008. Toshiba/Canon have already annouced that they have secured plans for a production facility and project at least 80,000 sets per month in the first phases. To my knowledge there have no so announcements regarding OLED sets.

Everytime I see one of these 'world beaters' I laugh. Many, just like you with SED, were talking for years how that technology would obsolete everything else.

Its not going happen overnight, but I believe it will happen. It is my personal opinion that SED is superior to plasma in every aspect of display technology.

The fact that SED technology can be incorporated in small cell phone type sizes as well stadium score board sizes is a clear indication that sky is the limit for this technology.

You guys will eventually learn that saying a new technology will dominate and actually have it happen are two very very different things. The new OLED on my Tivo S3 is so 'great', it's tough to read unless I'm on top of it. The OLEDs on many watches stink.

If SED is anything like CRT and from all accounts it is, the above should not be a probelm with SED.

So the bottom line is that you have no idea what will happen....we know what you'd like to happen, but that's no guarantee is it?

I do have an idea as to what will happen and yes, in the interest of the advancement of display technology as a consumer advocacy issue, I would like to see SED become the standard.

Ken Ross

10-27-06, 12:30 PM

So here is one of the FPD Intl (Yokohama) demo shots of the 55" SED vs an LCD TV

Interesting, I've never seen a blue sky on my plasma when it's supposed to depict a night scene. You really have to see that manufacturers use the poorest examples of other technologies and then use that as their A/B. It's misleading and pretty close to dishonest. I defy anyone to show me a 'night sky' of any decent, recent vintage plasma that depicts a night sky that poorly. Need further proof? Visit the HDMI 1.3 website where they show the benefits of 'deep color'. Notice the horrific banding they show with a display that doesn't do deep color. Now tell me how many displays you've seen recently that even begin to look that bad. These manufacturers are pathetic in their attempts to mislead the public.

So I'm sorry, those 'demo' pix do absolutely nothing to make a case.

Ken Ross

10-27-06, 12:38 PM

How do you know what "most plasma owners" think? .

Um, because I've been on AVS for a number of years and read the plasma threads. AVS has the most vocal, outspoken group of owners and if it doesn't bother them, I'm sure it doesn't bother others. :rolleyes:

Did you notice that there were some threads about seeing green flashes or rainbow like stuff on plasmas? Some people were bothered by that, others saw it but weren't bothered, others didn't see it.

I will say it again, the vast majority of plasma owners do not see this issue. If they did, we would have hundreds of pages of people complaining about it. We DON'T.

I've no problem if you are sceptical about SED. What is going on my nerves is that you've not seen SED personally yet, but at the same time you're so convinced that there's nothing SED can improve upon compared to your current plasma - except for black level. If you would just say "I'll reserve judgement until I've seen it for myself, but I doubt I'll see much of an improvement", that would be fine to me. But you're not reserving judgement. You're judging today - without having seen SED.

There is a difference between being skeptical and tempering one's enthusiasm. I am trying to counter those that call for all other technologies to simply lay down and die. Sometimes the forum needs a counter-point to let others see that this issue is far from black and white. Do you see a problem with that or should we let everyone believe there's no point in entertaining any other technology because SED will be so vastly superior?

Ken Ross

10-27-06, 12:47 PM

I don't why you continue to compare SED to OLED and other failed display technologies.

Continue? I believe that's the first time I referenced OLED with SED, but please correct me if I'm wrong and reference that post. Thanks.

To my point Auditor, others, just like you with SED, were declaring OLED the world beater. Just like you, OLED supporters were calling for the immediate surrender of all other display technologies. In other words Auditor, 'been there, done that'. Yes, I do believe SED is more viable than OLED for larger displays, but I surely don't see this as the world beater you claim. You yourself are proclaiming the main advantage is in black levels (and I agree with you there). But that advantage may very well be wiped out by the time SED hits the market. I really don't know how you can go on like this with that knowledge. And it appears we already have someone that has seen the Pioneer with the very refined black levels and was acknowledging that it looked essentially as good as SED.

richard korsgren

10-27-06, 01:36 PM

Remember, Auditor55 can only go on like this if he has people who will answer/debate him. That is what he wants and he continues to get his wish.

madshi

10-27-06, 01:44 PM

There is a difference between being skeptical and tempering one's enthusiasm. I am trying to counter those that call for all other technologies to simply lay down and die. Sometimes the forum needs a counter-point to let others see that this issue is far from black and white. Do you see a problem with that
It depends. I do see a problem with that, if it means that you're artificially downplaying SED with the sole reason to offer a counter-point to the SED hypers. You're not going to convince any SED hype guy this way. You're just feeding the monster instead. Why not trying to find a balanced and reasonable point of view? That makes much more sense than to post counter-points just for the sake of it. People who are intelligent enough will find out who's just hopelessly hyping and who has a reasonable point of view. You'll find over the top opinions in most threads. The best way to handle those is usually to ignore them, IMHO.

Here's my point of view:

Looking at the technology, SED should have the potential to outdo LCD and Plasma in picture quality. Why? LCD creates light and then blocks it in another layer. That's a fundamental technological flaw. Plasma pixels can't draw intermediate values, so they have to pulse. Another technological flaw. Both technologies have come a long way and they mostly look quite fine now and they're constantly improving. But technologically wise SED doesn't have any fundamental flaws (which impact picture quality) to begin with. So the potential is there for superior image quality.

Will SED make it to market? Who knows, maybe yes, maybe not. Will we some day be able to buy SED for a reasonable price? Maybe yes, maybe not, I don't know. How large will the gap in picture quality be between SED and LCD/Plasma? I'm not sure. Maybe only videophiles will see it. Maybe most people will see it if they see a SED directly next to a LCD/Plasma, but not without the direct comparison. Or mabye the difference will be strikingly obvious to everybody. I simply don't know.

Now everybody who hypes SED and thinks any other technology is already doomed to death right now should try to understand that Canon and Toshiba have lots of problems to cope with. They have to get mass production done with good yields and low cost. That alone will be very difficult. Not because LCD/Plasma are better technologies or easier to build. But because LCD/Plasma have had such a big head start. SED is late to the game. And that makes it very difficult for Canon and Toshiba to get a foot into the door.

Everybody who thinks SED doesn't have a chance and isn't needed, anyway, because LCD and Plasma are or will soon be near perfect - without even having seen SED themselves yet - should try to understand that only because a display looks damn great, that doesn't mean that there isn't room for improvement. And you guys please respect the reports of people we know and trust who've seen SED themselves and are drooling over what they saw.