I was under the original impression that the Pearl did not do IVT on film source material, hoever it appears that as long as "DDE" is enabled, that the unit does, as Sage tested (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8612144&&#post8612144).

Upon enabling this, it appears I'm getting good IVT performance as well. While I've been hoping that the 2nd gen HD DVD players would putpu 24p, it looks like this won't really be an issue for we Pearl owners.

So far deinterlacing seems pretty good to me as well. I haven't seen any opbvious issues, but I don't currently have any test patters either.

Any comments on how good Sony's latest processing solution is, and perhaps any good demo material to test it?

Brightness, video processing and physical size are about the only things making me wait on buying a Pearl. I suppose I could throw ANSI contrast into that list as well. If I can get a wee bit more brightness, better video processing an obviously smaller physical size (no question about that one!) and comparable black level, shadow detail and contrast (hopefully better ANSI contrast than the Pearl actually) from the Mitsubishi HC5000, Panny AE1000 or Epson TW1000 then that'll be the way I go. So far, the Sony Pearl's video processing seems to be testing quite well, but not quite excellent. I personally still have many SD or ED sources and digital satellite is, of course, 720p or 1080i, so a good scaler/deinterlacer is a top priority for me. So far, the Mitsu HC5000 looks the most promising in this area, but if it isn't up to par in terms of black level, shadow detail and contrast (both on/off and ANSI), then I'll still have to look else where.

Jon

Are you drawing these conclusions with your own tests, or is this what you have gathered from others?

The inverse telecine of 1080i film-sourced material is flawless.

I don't watch 1080i video, so I cannot comment on that definitively, but a casual glance suggests it is good.

My satellite box outputs everything (even 480i SD channels) at 1080i. And I watch DVDs on an upconverting player (HTPC) so those are actually in 1080p. So I cannot comment on how well the unit does with 480i material.

The inverse telecine of 1080i film-sourced material is flawless.

I don't watch 1080i video, so I cannot comment on that definitively, but a casual glance suggests it is good.

My satellite box outputs everything (even 480i SD channels) at 1080i. And I watch DVDs on an upconverting player (HTPC) so those are actually in 1080p. So I cannot comment on how well the unit does with 480i material.

I use an HD DVD player, and have it scale 480i to 1080i before output. The Pearl appears to handle and output it correctly at a multiple of 24. I don't think there is much to be gained by going with an exteranl video processor if you primarily watch movies.

Just so I understand, does the Pearl inverse telecine a properly flagged fim source 1080i signal back to 1080p/24 and then display it at some multiple of 24? Or does it IVTC the signal and then display it at 60fps with the proper 3 / 2 sequence (which has a very slight but noticeable judder on smooth pans)?

Just so I understand, does the Pearl inverse telecine a properly flagged fim source 1080i signal back to 1080p/24 and then display it at some multiple of 24? Or does it IVTC the signal and then display it at 60fps with the proper 3 / 2 sequence (which has a very slight but noticeable judder on smooth pans)?

It appears to display it at a proper multiple of 24 as long as DDE is enabled.

Incidentally, if ia display is recieving 1080i60, and then displaying with 3:2 cadence at 60i, then it hasn't performed IVTC. It's displaying telecined materal. Your question description doesn't really match the terms you are using: you can't IVTC and then display 60i.

Sorry to ask a newbie question (my Pearl is hopefully coming soon), but what is DDE? Is there a Pearl manual online that I can download?

It appears to display it at a proper multiple of 24 as long as DDE is enabled.

Incidentally, if ia display is recieving 1080i60, and then displaying with 3:2 cadence at 60i, then it hasn't performed IVTC. It's displaying telecined materal. Your question description doesn't really match the terms you are using: you can't IVTC and then display 60i.

I was under the impression that the Pearl, like most such units, would NOT take a 1080i60 film-sourced signal and display it at a multiple of 24fps, but, rather, would deinterlace using inverse telecine and display the full frames at 1080p60fps -- ie, 2-3-2-3-2-3 of each full frame, 1080x1920, from the original source.

My impression is that the Pearl will display at multiples of 24fps only if the signal being fed to it is 1080p24fps.

Deinterlacing is taking the individual fields to reconstruct a progressive frame.

IVTC discarding the extra fields added in the telecine process. If you are still displaying 24p source at 60i, you haven't "inversed" the process.

Sorry to ask a newbie question (my Pearl is hopefully coming soon), but what is DDE? Is there a Pearl manual online that I can download?

According to the manual, it's "Dynamic Detail Enhancer", stupid name.

The description says, "Film: Normally, select this option. Reporduces 2-3 Pull Down with smooth pictre movement. If video is other than 2-3 Pulldown, it automatically switches to progressive" (Praphrased)

I know of no online Pearl manuals thus far.

The Pearl manual is available on the sony site:

http://esupport.sony.com/US/perl/model-documents.pl?mdl=VPLVW50&LOC=3

Deinterlacing is taking the individual fields to reconstruct a progressive frame.

IVTC discarding the extra fields added in the telecine process. If you are still displaying 24p source at 60i, you haven't "inversed" the process.

Right, but progressive displays like the Pearl display the 24fps at 60 progressive (full) frames per second, not 60 interlaced frames. So it's a 24fps source, recorded at 60i, but IVTC-ed top get back to the original 24 progressive frames per second, and then 3-2-3-2-ed to 60fps. (Using your language that final result would be 60p not 60i.)

Right, but progressive displays like the Pearl display the 24fps at 60 progressive (full) frames per second, not 60 interlaced frames. So it's a 24fps source, recorded at 60i, but IVTC-ed top get back to the original 24 progressive frames per second, and then 3-2-3-2-ed to 60fps. (Using your language that final result would be 60p not 60i.)

I'm pointing out that typical usage of IVTC means to obtain the original 24 FPS material in order to play it back without judder. If you do that and then display the result, then you have IVTC'ed the source.

See An explanation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telecine#Common_pulldown_patterns)

If you display 24fps source at a 60hz frameratre (with 3:2 cadence judder), then it's typically not referred to as having been IVTC'ed. If some intermediate step within a display actually does reverse the original pulldown, but then re-assembles full frames at 60Hz so we never see it, then the end result is not considered, to be IVTC'ed, but rather just deinterlaced.

That is my only point. I brought this up, because it appears that the Pearl handles it in the preferred manner of the first case, and not the second, obviating the need for a 24fps deck or external scaler to do it for us.

Right, but progressive displays like the Pearl display the 24fps at 60 progressive (full) frames per second, not 60 interlaced frames. So it's a 24fps source, recorded at 60i, but IVTC-ed top get back to the original 24 progressive frames per second, and then 3-2-3-2-ed to 60fps. (Using your language that final result would be 60p not 60i.)

Do you have any tests that prove that this is what is happening wit the Pearl, or are you speaking hypothetically? It certainly is what many TVs and projectors have done in the past, but does not appear to be the case with the Pearl. I am ready to stand corrected by anyone who can prove me incorrect.

If you display 24fps source at a 60hz frameratre (with 3:2 cadence judder), then it's typically not referred to as having been IVTC'ed.

I see what you're saying. In that case, I guess the jury is still out.

I can run a test, via HTPC, if that is helpful, but I would need to know which test patterns to use and how to evaluate the results.

I'm simply summarizing my impression from the CEDIA and other press coverage. From those accounts, 24fps is displayed at 96fps/hz, and 60i/30fps is displayed at 60p/fps/hz. I'd be happy to be wrong, but so far I haven't seen something in my viewing of HD-DVD, DVD, DISH-HD, or HTPC to suggest otherwise. Certainly I see a much more smooth picture with the projector set to FILM move, instead of PROGRESSIVE or OFF, but isn't this the nature of bobbing film-sourced-material versus re-constructing the frames correctly?

I see what you're saying. In that case, I guess the jury is still out.

I can run a test, via HTPC, if that is helpful, but I would need to know which test patterns to use and how to evaluate the results.

I'm simply summarizing my impression from the CEDIA and other press coverage. From those accounts, 24fps is displayed at 96fps/hz, and 60i/30fps is displayed at 60p/fps/hz. I'd be happy to be wrong, but so far I haven't seen something in my viewing of HD-DVD, DVD, DISH-HD, or HTPC to suggest otherwise. Certainly I see a much more smooth picture with the projector set to FILM move, instead of PROGRESSIVE or OFF, but isn't this the nature of bobbing film-sourced-material versus re-constructing the frames correctly?

I think you are confusing deinterlacing (of which bobbing is one method, though not preferred), with IVTC.

It's not a matter of reconstructing frames, which is typically done by a deck capable of progressive output. It either reads the flags or observes the cadence in order to reconstruct the frames and then sends them out w/ 3:2 cadence 60Hz, introducing judder. This is an important distinction, the frame reconstruction has ALREADY HAPPENED inside the deck. Mixed fileds are typically NOT sent on the wire to the display The output is then sent in an interlaced set of frames: 3 pair, then 2 pair, to the display. The display then weaves the sets of fields together to restore the progressive frames(for FPD's), and then displays it.

If the processor (external or in the display), detects this cadence and inverses it, restoring a true miltiple-of-24-framerate and then dispalys it, then it has performed IVTC.

Fair enough. So what you and sage are saying is that when I feed the Pearl a DVD, upconverted (and deinterlaced) to 1080p60fps (where the cadence must be 3-2-3-2-3-2 etc), the Pearl will see that cadence and displays it at 96hz?

Fair enough. So what you and sage are saying is that when I feed the Pearl a DVD, upconverted (and deinterlaced) to 1080p60fps (where the cadence must be 3-2-3-2-3-2 etc), the Pearl will see that cadence and displays it at 96hz?

Actually, I think you would need to feed it 1080i60. Once you de-interlace 1080i60 to p60, I don't know that most video processors can correctly discard and reassemble the fields necessary. They'll probably just pass it through and output it at 1080p60. In other words, you may well get a better image out of 1080i60.

Fair enough. So what you and sage are saying is that when I feed the Pearl a DVD, upconverted (and deinterlaced) to 1080p60fps (where the cadence must be 3-2-3-2-3-2 etc), the Pearl will see that cadence and displays it at 96hz?


Nathan you are right. Don't let these other two confuse you.

IVTC is only to reconstruct back to the full frame 24. That is it.

The the Pearl will bring it to 60P with a 3:2 pull down.

scaesare - Now don't for one min think that 3:2 pull down at this time is trying to denterlace anything. Just think of it like this. The source at this point is 24P

1:1 24/24
2:2 48/48
3:3 72/72
4:4 96/96

3:2 24/60

We have to break down the 24 full frames.
One full frame rendered 3 times in a row - then the next full frame is rendered 2 times in a row.

Now do this 12 times to get the Full 24 frames

so 3*12 + 2*12 = 60


Only if feed a true 24P will it go to 96htz. (supposably)


(also the Pearl READS 1080P 60 in the menu)

Sage - I like what you are doing with the Service menu Gamma, I am interested in talking to you about this. I to would like to get ride of my green blob.

Only if feed a true 24P will it go to 96htz. (supposably)




Hi SOWK

IIRC you have a Lumagen. Do you know how the Pearl handles 24p encoded material output from the Lumagen at 24PsF ?

Dazzer

Nathan you are right. Don't let these other two confuse you.

IVTC is only to reconstruct back to the full frame 24. That is it.

The the Pearl will bring it to 60P with a 3:2 pull down.

How is the Pearl brining 24p to 60p? The deck has already reversed the pull down off the disc (or repeated frames as necessary in the case of 24p HD DVD), and is sending the Pearl a 60i signal with 3:2 cadence.

The Pearl has never even seen the 24p source. Unless you have one via scaler, but that's not what we are talking about here.

scaesare - Now don't for one min think that 3:2 pull down at this time is trying to denterlace anything. Just think of it like this. The source at this point is 24P

I'm not. Nathan spoke of bobbing, which is where I suggested he was getting deinterlacing confused


1:1 24/24
2:2 48/48
3:3 72/72
4:4 96/96

3:2 24/60



We have to break down the 24 full frames.
One full frame rendered 3 times in a row - then the next full frame is rendered 2 times in a row.

Now do this 12 times to get the Full 24 frames

so 3*12 + 2*12 = 60


Sure. This happens in the player and is sent to the Pearl as 60i


Only if feed a true 24P will it go to 96htz. (supposably)


(also the Pearl READS 1080P 60 in the menu)




I'm not so sure. It's not what Sage tested, what I observed, or what the manual seems to say

Sage - I like what you are doing with the Service menu Gamma, I am interested in talking to you about this. I to would like to get ride of my green blob.

I did a little more informal testing. Watching a homemade TS file of a film-based source, broadcast at 1080i60.

I played it back at 1080p24 out of the htpc, and I played it back at 1080p60 out of the htpc. 1080p24 was the better-looking of the two, less "judder" on pans. My conclusion is that the projector is handling those two signals differently, but it might be the HTPC.

Alas, nVidia cards can output 1080i60 but internally they pass the signal through a 1080p60 step, and then re-interlace, so what one has at that point is not clear. I may give it a shot.

I did a little more informal testing. Watching a homemade TS file of a film-based source, broadcast at 1080i60.

I played it back at 1080p24 out of the htpc, and I played it back at 1080p60 out of the htpc. 1080p24 was the better-looking of the two, less "judder" on pans. My conclusion is that the projector is handling those two signals differently, but it might be the HTPC.

Alas, nVidia cards can output 1080i60 but internally they pass the signal through a 1080p60 step, and then re-interlace, so what one has at that point is not clear. I may give it a shot.

I used 1080i60 test patterns output from the Toshiba player. As I mentioned above (and you have confirmed), I would not expect it to handle 1080p60. I found it helpful to switch back and forth between DDE Film and DDE progressive while watching the test patterns to help my eye differentiate between film and video motion.

For HD-DVD on the A1 with the Pearl we are getting true 1080p frames when in film mode, correct?

For HD-DVD on the A1 with the Pearl we are getting true 1080p frames when in film mode, correct?

That appears to be the case, but I should not be taken as the final word on this. The manual specifically calls out "smooth motion" when in film mode, and I think it would be hard to argue that 3:2 judder is "smooth".

The DDE description in the Pearl Manual says that when in "Film" mode, the PJ will IVTC film-based 2:3 material, and fall back to progressive mode for non 2:3 material.

DDE "Off" is supposed to "Play back interlaced material unconverted."

However, when watching Charlie and The Chocolate Factory on HD DVD tonight, I notice that, although the main feature was obviously film source and the PJ handled it correctly, the extras were apparently video. I noticed de-interlacing artifacts (combing) when left in Film mode. (The "squirrels" segment has graphic overlays with the squirrel's names that made this very obvious)

Changing to "Progressive" made no change, combing was still visible.

DDE Off eliminated the combing and the picture looked smooth.

So, I surmise that the extras were interlaced, and the Pearl needed to have DDE off to avoid attempting 3:2 pull down or to avoid trying to play back interlaced content in progressive mode.

Howver, I do NOT get the same behavior with interlaced HD content fed from my sat box. I'm looking at 1080i right now and the station logo is sharp and artifact free.

Any ideas on why the difference?

Steve-
I see that you are in the Ashburn, VA. area. Can you advise me on a couple of great places to view several (at least a few) projectors in operation, demoed in a fair example of a dedicated home theater, please ? I am in the Woodbridge area. I know of Audio Buys in Manassas. I sure would like to find a Ruby or better yet, a working Pearl, and maybe some close competitors. Thanks for any ideas.

for those who watch PAL DVDs: According to the extensive test on www.cine4home.com, the Pearl does not do PAL deinterlacing very well.

The DDE description in the Pearl Manual says that when in "Film" mode, the PJ will IVTC film-based 2:3 material, and fall back to progressive mode for non 2:3 material.

DDE "Off" is supposed to "Play back interlaced material unconverted."

However, when watching Charlie and The Chocolate Factory on HD DVD tonight, I notice that, although the main feature was obviously film source and the PJ handled it correctly, the extras were apparently video. I noticed de-interlacing artifacts (combing) when left in Film mode. (The "squirrels" segment has graphic overlays with the squirrel's names that made this very obvious)

Changing to "Progressive" made no change, combing was still visible.

DDE Off eliminated the combing and the picture looked smooth.

So, I surmise that the extras were interlaced, and the Pearl needed to have DDE off to avoid attempting 3:2 pull down or to avoid trying to play back interlaced content in progressive mode.

Howver, I do NOT get the same behavior with interlaced HD content fed from my sat box. I'm looking at 1080i right now and the station logo is sharp and artifact free.

Any ideas on why the difference?
Just a guess: The extras may have been composed of mixed source types. I.e., they were a mix of video and either 3:2 or 2:2. Many video processors aren't very good at identifying this situation and will lock onto the 3:2/2:2 cadence, with the result that the video portion combs.

- Dale Adams

Steve-
I see that you are in the Ashburn, VA. area. Can you advise me on a couple of great places to view several (at least a few) projectors in operation, demoed in a fair example of a dedicated home theater, please ? I am in the Woodbridge area. I know of Audio Buys in Manassas. I sure would like to find a Ruby or better yet, a working Pearl, and maybe some close competitors. Thanks for any ideas.

Well, I actually bought the Pearl site unseen... how's that for an ill- recommended multi-thousand dollar purchasing decision! :D

That having been said, I had seen a Ruby twice: once at the Myer Emco in Sterling, and once at Soundoworks in Cambridge (Mark Haflich's place), so I was pretty familiar with the technology. I don't know if either of those plaes have a Pearl up, but they might.

If you can't find one (or the installation environment stinks), let me know, and we can talk about if you are intrested in seeing mine.

Just a guess: The extras may have been composed of mixed source types. I.e., they were a mix of video and either 3:2 or 2:2. Many video processors aren't very good at identifying this situation and will lock onto the 3:2/2:2 cadence, with the result that the video portion combs.

- Dale Adams

That's probably a good guess. I thought I had notoced combing in the video material itself, and not just the graphics overlays, but I suppose that doesn't mean there were'n other mixed elements in there as well.

Not to get off topic, but I'm wondering how the Pearl looks with SDTV feeds? Is a VP required?

Well, I actually bought the Pearl site unseen... how's that for an ill- recommended multi-thousand dollar purchasing decision! :D

That having been said, I had seen a Ruby twice: once at the Myer Emco in Sterling, and once at Soundoworks in Cambridge (Mark Haflich's place), so I was pretty familiar with the technology. I don't know if either of those plaes have a Pearl up, but they might.

If you can't find one (or the installation environment stinks), let me know, and we can talk about if you are intrested in seeing mine.

THANK YOU STEVE. I will check it out, but I appreciate the home tour offer and that might be the ultimate "Pearl view." This may be just the PJ for my room over in Montclair (Prince Wm. County). :)

Not to get off topic, but I'm wondering how the Pearl looks with SDTV feeds? Is a VP required?

All of my SD cable content is fed to the Pearl at 1080i, upconverted by the cable box, which is how I imagine many people are going to do it. The picture looks about like what you would expect from SDTV -- pretty crappy on a 96 inch screen. To be honest, I don't think there is a VP alive that could save some of these channels. High quality SD (like DVD) looks great, but I do recommend using a digital connection to avoid annoying double-lines, per the Cine4Home review (and my own experience).

All of my SD cable content is fed to the Pearl at 1080i, upconverted by the cable box, which is how I imagine many people are going to do it. The picture looks about like what you would expect from SDTV -- pretty crappy on a 96 inch screen. To be honest, I don't think there is a VP alive that could save some of these channels. High quality SD (like DVD) looks great, but I do recommend using a digital connection to avoid annoying double-lines, per the Cine4Home review (and my own experience).

Ditto. :)

Ditto. :)

Ditto, again.

I was pleasantly surprised that if I sit in my "back row" I can stand to watch a 4:3 movie on TCM... but it still looks like VHS tape (which is about the resolution of most SD channels on satellite and cable).

Ditto, again.

I was pleasantly surprised that if I sit in my "back row" I can stand to watch a 4:3 movie on TCM... but it still looks like VHS tape (which is about the resolution of most SD channels on satellite and cable).

My understanding is that Dish network SD is at 480 X 480.

Their HD breadth is still abysmal less than 10% of their overall channels. But those few channels look glorious on a Pearl, very 3D. Supersedes anything I have seen in a commercial movie theater except for Imax of course. And that sterling performance has been observed thus far with only the default iris setting (DI off).

My understanding is that Dish network SD is at 480 X 480.

Their HD breadth is still abysmal less than 10% of their overall channels. But those few channels look glorious on a Pearl, very 3D. Supersedes anything I have seen in a commercial movie theater except for Imax of course. And that sterling performance has been observed thus far with only the default iris setting (DI off).

Yeah, as long as they aren't bit-starving the channel, Dish serves up some pretty good HD. And even though it's a minority subset of all the avaialable channels, they have more than Direct and most cable providers...and better PQ, IMO. I think the move to AVC for their new codec has given them room to add lots of locals in HD and still get pretty decent PQ.

Now if whatever they are doing 2 weeks in a row that makes Lost on ABC start breaking up (perhaps it's ABC's feed), I'd really appreciate it...

My understanding is that Dish network SD is at 480 X 480.

Their HD breadth is still abysmal less than 10% of their overall channels. But those few channels look glorious on a Pearl, very 3D. Supersedes anything I have seen in a commercial movie theater except for Imax of course. And that sterling performance has been observed thus far with only the default iris setting (DI off).

I watch Dish, having switched from Comcast a few months ago, just for the Voom channels (primarily) and have been very happy with the quality of their HD stuff (and of course their quantity, for a movie lover, is triple anyone else) -- though it is softer than HD-DVD, which I attribute mostly to Dish doing HD at less than 1920x1080. (What is it now, 1440x1080?)

I didn't realize their SD channels were at 480x480. Though still not adequate in my mind, and their bitrate leads to macroblocking and softening, that would explain why TCM looks better on Dish than on Comcast. (Two or three years ago, TCM had an online FAQ saying they were launching an HD channel. They no longer have this on their [public] roadmap :-(

How is the Pearl brining 24p to 60p? The deck has already reversed the pull down off the disc (or repeated frames as necessary in the case of 24p HD DVD), and is sending the Pearl a 60i signal with 3:2 cadence.

The Pearl has never even seen the 24p source. Unless you have one via scaler, but that's not what we are talking about here.



I'm not. Nathan spoke of bobbing, which is where I suggested he was getting deinterlacing confused



Sure. This happens in the player and is sent to the Pearl as 60i





I'm not so sure. It's not what Sage tested, what I observed, or what the manual seems to say

Well, I have to reverse my previous position. While I originally thought I had seen 3:2 judder on film credits disappear w/ DDE enabled, I must have looked too quickly. I spent some time with this last night, and it appears that the Pearl does NOT extract 24p from 60i and display at 96Hz.

Too bad. Now I'm back in the market for a 24p HD DVD player. C'mon Toshiba!

Well, I have to reverse my previous position. While I originally thought I had seen 3:2 judder on film credits disappear w/ DDE enabled, I must have looked to quickly. I spent some time with this last night, and it appears that the Pearl does NOT extracy 24p from 60i and display at 96Hz.

Too bad. Now I'm back in the market for a 24p HD DVD player. C'mon Toshiba!

Or Blu-ray. ;)

Steve-
I see that you are in the Ashburn, VA. area. Can you advise me on a couple of great places to view several (at least a few) projectors in operation, demoed in a fair example of a dedicated home theater, please ? I am in the Woodbridge area. I know of Audio Buys in Manassas. I sure would like to find a Ruby or better yet, a working Pearl, and maybe some close competitors. Thanks for any ideas.

FWIW, there's a Ruby on display at Gramophone in Columbia, MD.

Well, I have to reverse my previous position. While I originally thought I had seen 3:2 judder on film credits disappear w/ DDE enabled, I must have looked to quickly. I spent some time with this last night, and it appears that the Pearl does NOT extracy 24p from 60i and display at 96Hz.

Too bad. Now I'm back in the market for a 24p HD DVD player. C'mon Toshiba!

Hmmmm... I still vote on a photo diode and an osciliscope.

Ya. Time..... must...get....time.

hi guys ;) last week-end I saw a HD-A1 plugged to a Pearl.
We played Swordfish hd-dvd and I could see the 3:2 judder :( with DDE on Film mode.
this is very obvious in the scene when Travolta go "visit" the Senator (Sam Sheppard) with a helicopter, while watching the helicopter movie within the moutains, I could see the 3:2 judder.

as for sharpness, we focused more on the pool scene ;) when Jackman talks to Berry (reading a book) :D

My Pearl is set up and I am waiting for my HD-A1 wich should arrive tomorrow, I'll do further tests with V for Vendetta / Sahara / Batman Begins but my hopes are low from what I've seen last week-end.

hi guys ;) last week-end I saw a HD-A1 plugged to a Pearl.
We played Swordfish hd-dvd and I could see the 3:2 judder :( with DDE on Film mode.
this is very obvious in the scene when Travolta go "visit" the Senator (Sam Sheppard) with a helicopter, while watching the helicopter movie within the moutains, I could see the 3:2 judder.

as for sharpness, we focused more on the pool scene ;) when Jackman talks to Berry (reading a book) :D

My Pearl is set up and I am waiting for my HD-A1 wich should arrive tomorrow, I'll do further tests with V for Vendetta / Sahara / Batman Begins but my hopes are low from what I've seen last week-end.

Are you seeing short-fast-short-fast, or are just seeing the limitations of 24 hz film?

The DDE description in the Pearl Manual says that when in "Film" mode, the PJ will IVTC film-based 2:3 material, and fall back to progressive mode for non 2:3 material.

DDE "Off" is supposed to "Play back interlaced material unconverted."

However, when watching Charlie and The Chocolate Factory on HD DVD tonight, I notice that, although the main feature was obviously film source and the PJ handled it correctly, the extras were apparently video. I noticed de-interlacing artifacts (combing) when left in Film mode. (The "squirrels" segment has graphic overlays with the squirrel's names that made this very obvious)

Changing to "Progressive" made no change, combing was still visible.

DDE Off eliminated the combing and the picture looked smooth.

So, I surmise that the extras were interlaced, and the Pearl needed to have DDE off to avoid attempting 3:2 pull down or to avoid trying to play back interlaced content in progressive mode.

Howver, I do NOT get the same behavior with interlaced HD content fed from my sat box. I'm looking at 1080i right now and the station logo is sharp and artifact free.

Any ideas on why the difference?


:confused: maybe you guys can help me out regarding my setup ?: :confused:

i've just bought a vantage-hd scaler to complement my pearl.
my question is, can i adust the scaler to output 1080p24 no matter what device is plugged in into the vantage ? (i have a marantz dv7600 dvd player, hd-satellite box and soon a toshiba hd-e1 which outputs only 1080i)

...and in connection with the scaler, should i turn on or off dde function in the pearl ?

i've read many threads in the forum about that and i think i've got the typical newbie disease: info overkill :confused:

hang loose,

mike

I'm reviving this thread, as it was here (and a couple of others) where we first discussed if the Pearl was capable of doing 3:2 reversal to recover the original 24p framerate from film-based source, and display it at 96Hz.

There's been some disagreement about this, although I originally thought it did.

I've recently had a discussion with Kevin Collins (of Microsoft HD DVD roadshow fame), and he states he's positive it does as well. He's had extensive experience using an external processor to recover 24p from the Toshiba HD DVD decks to feed a DLP projector used for demo purposes. When he recently tested on a Pearl, he got the same result, without the external VP.

So... any thought as to how we can conclusively test this?

1080 judder test TS files: http://www.w6rz.net/judder.zip
I guess you would need a PC to play these at 1080i60. I would not trust a negative experiment as proof, the PC could easily be screwing up the output cadence.

I thought the distinction was:

Feed a pearl 24p, get 96hz
Feed a pearl 30p or 60i, get 60hz

but I have no reliable way to test, and only hold this belief based on reviews, perhaps even of pre-release versions.

I was under the original impression that the Pearl did not do IVT on film source material, hoever it appears that as long as "DDE" is enabled, that the unit does, as Sage tested (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8612144&&#post8612144).

Upon enabling this, it appears I'm getting good IVT performance as well. While I've been hoping that the 2nd gen HD DVD players would putpu 24p, it looks like this won't really be an issue for we Pearl owners.

So far deinterlacing seems pretty good to me as well. I haven't seen any opbvious issues, but I don't currently have any test patters either.

Any comments on how good Sony's latest processing solution is, and perhaps any good demo material to test it?

The Pearl may well IVT on 60hz HD DVD but it does not then refresh this at a multiple of 24 . This results in judder based on the units I've tested.

You need either a 24p source or a VP that can convert then output 24/48p. The Pearl will refersh at 96hz and motion with be smoother.

I use the following scenes to checkout video processing amonst others. Unfortunately the Pearl failed both. :(

MI3 HD DVD @ 1080i/60Hz

1. Chapter 7 40:25 Vatican wall on left of scene moire artefact in brickwork as camera pans.

2. Chapter 8 46:54 Staircase appears to move around/twitter significantly when camera pan as if its alive.

Dazzer

I'm reviving this thread, as it was here (and a couple of others) where we first discussed if the Pearl was capable of doing 3:2 reversal to recover the original 24p framerate from film-based source, and display it at 96Hz.

There's been some disagreement about this, although I originally thought it did.

I've recently had a discussion with Kevin Collins (of Microsoft HD DVD roadshow fame), and he states he's positive it does as well. He's had extensive experience using an external processor to recover 24p from the Toshiba HD DVD decks to feed a DLP projector used for demo purposes. When he recently tested on a Pearl, he got the same result, without the external VP.

So... any thought as to how we can conclusively test this?

I'm over the pond in Europe and most film material here is based on 50hz and we are accustomed to very smooth 2:2 film motion. Many of us are bothered by 60Hz film material because of 3:2 induced judder and it is very noticeable to us.

I can confirm that feeding the Pearl HD DVD at 1080i/60 it does not remove judder. Put a Lumagen in the loop and output 24/48p and the motion is smoother as in similar to our normal Euro 2:2 smooth.

I’ve owned four Pearls and seen many others and all exhibit the same judder with 1080i HD DVD. If you only ever watch 60hz film material you may not notice the issue as much as those that encounter smooth 2:2 material most of the time.

My pet test for judder is Sahara HD DVD. During the title scene the camera pans around an office/lab for around 1.5 minutes. Is the camera motion really smooth as it pans ?

Dazzer

It doesn't. See my post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9886827&&#post9886827).

regards,

Li On

1080 judder test TS files: http://www.w6rz.net/judder.zip
I guess you would need a PC to play these at 1080i60. I would not trust a negative experiment as proof, the PC could easily be screwing up the output cadence.

Unfortunately, the Pear does not take full-resolution via VGA. I don't have a HDMI video card at the moment. If anybody does that outputs video-levels, I'd be interested in seeing how these tests behave.

Well, obviously folks are seeing some different things. It might be useful to identify why (such as how the "HD Mediabox" connects to the Pearl, etc...).

Here, with permission, is Kevin Collins' PM to me. Notice that he and Stacy Spears are in agreement:

I had a fellow co-worker first tell me that his Pearl was doing 24FPS and I didn’t believe him as I couldn’t understand how it could do it since the Marantz 1080P that I have on the HD DVD Mobile Experience truck couldn’t do it without the VP50. My co-worker was confusing the HQV test patterns, that we have in a 1080 raster, of not seeing the moiré patterns with doing 24FPS. That was an incorrect assumption as that test pattern only indicates if 2:3 pulldown is occurring, not if the picture is at 24FPS. I am not aware of any official test pattern that can prove 24FPS, I am just very sensitive to it because I have lived with 24FPS multiples since 1999 when I built a HTPC and output it at 72hz to my Sony G70 CRT.



What I use as “test pattern” not is the opening scene of the HD DVD PRG promotion disc. It is a scene of NYC where it pans from left to right and bottom to top. These types of scenes are the best to see “judder” from 60FPS output with 24FPS source material.



I couldn’t believe my eyes when we were looking at the Ruby and the pans were super smooth! I know that sequence inside and out and that Pearl with that HD-A2 (not firmeare upgraded) was doing it. There is no way to “fake” this, it either is or it is not.



I had done a basic cal on this guys Pearl and we didn’t have anything special setup on the Pearl to enable this mode. I even asked him if there was.



Still in disbelief of what I saw, I asked Stacey Spears how the Pearl could do this and that the Marantz with the Gennum processor couldn’t do it! He also agreed that the Pearl can do this by detecting if the source is 24FPS and then simply outputting 2:2:2 instead of 2:2:3

I use the following scenes to checkout video processing amonst others. Unfortunately the Pearl failed both. :(

MI3 HD DVD @ 1080i/60Hz

1. Chapter 7 40:25 Vatican wall on left of scene moire artefact in brickwork as camera pans.

2. Chapter 8 46:54 Staircase appears to move around/twitter significantly when camera pan as if its alive.

Dazzer
I and many others have seen those artifacts, even on the regular DVD, but I don't think those artifacts have anything to do with 2-3 judder. So those scenes are not suitable tests for 2-3 judder.

... So it now looks like the Pearl is a go!

You've Got Mail!

I and many others have seen those artifacts, even on the regular DVD, but I don't think those artifacts have anything to do with 2-3 judder. So those scenes are not suitable tests for 2-3 judder.


Who said they were ? This was in response to the question in the OP below. There is more to video processing quality than 3:2. :)

Any comments on how good Sony's latest processing solution is, and perhaps any good demo material to test it?

Dazzer

Wow, that's a major plus over the RS1 and any other 1080p projector for that fact! I know the RS1 is supposed to be more CRT like with contrast. But I can achieve with slightly blown out highlights all shadow detail a CRT will. Now with 1080i60 shown as 2:2:2 for original 24 frame material, thats really amazing. I too am very sensitive to judder and when I was at Best Buy looking at the Pearl, I had the sales person put in several DVDs using the Denon upconversion set to 1080i60 output with DDE on and saw no judder. I was beginning to lose faith in my eyes. Even if it's not 2:2:2, the Pearl is doing some sort of frame rate conversion (FRC) unlike anything else I've ever seen. I can't afford both a projector and a video processor. So it now looks like the Pearl is a go!

Guess I should'nt believe my own eyes then :)

Dazzer

Well, obviously folks are seeing some different things. It might be useful to identify why (such as how the "HD Mediabox" connects to the Pearl, etc...).

Here, with permission, is Kevin Collins' PM to me. Notice that he and Stacy Spears are in agreement:

I can only comment on what I see with HD DVD and that's judder @ 1080i/60 via HDMI. I'm also sesnsetive to judder because much of my collection is 2:2. Putting the Lumagen between and using 1080/48 (HDMI) removes the judder on HD DVD.

Dazzer

Notice that he and Stacy Spears are in agreement:


"I asked Stacey Spears how the Pearl could do this and that the Marantz with the Gennum processor couldn’t do it! He also agreed that the Pearl can do this by detecting if the source is 24FPS and then simply outputting 2:2:2 instead of 2:2:3"

Is Stacey agreeing that he has witnessed the Pearl doing this or is he explaining how it could do this ?

Dazzer

"I asked Stacey Spears how the Pearl could do this and that the Marantz with the Gennum processor couldn’t do it! He also agreed that the Pearl can do this by detecting if the source is 24FPS and then simply outputting 2:2:2 instead of 2:2:3"

Is Stacey agreeing that he has witnessed the Pearl doing this or is he explaining how it could do this ?

Dazzer

He very well could be.

For those who feel they can tell one way or the other if their Pearl is performing reverse-IVTC and displaying at 96Hz, can you report back:

1) Your "DDE"* settting on the Pearl. (A horribly named setting, I might add)

2) What source you are using

3) What connection method (i.e.- HDMI, component, etc...)

* The manual's description of DDE (Dynamic Detail Enhancer): When in "Film" mode, the PJ will IVTC film-based 2:3 material, and fall back to progressive mode for non 2:3 material. DDE "Off" is supposed to "Play back interlaced material unconverted."


While I'm not convinced one way or the other, here's my setup:

DDE: "Film"

Source: HD-A2 thru a Pioneer Elite VSX-84TXSi AVR set to passthru (aka "Pure")

Connection: HDMI

Who said they were ? This was in response to the question in the OP below. There is more to video processing quality than 3:2. :)
I thought someone might infer that those scenes could be used to test 2-3 judder. So I was just pointing out that they should not be used in that way.

Futhermore, I suspect that the artifacts in those scenes are the result of poor mastering and/or encoding. In other words, they are in the source image itself, and it might not be possible to eliminate them via processing.

I agree that there is more to video processing than 2-3 judder. :)

I thought someone might infer that those scenes could be used to test 2-3 judder. So I was just pointing out that they should not be used in that way.

Futhermore, I suspect that the artifacts in those scenes are the result of poor mastering and/or encoding. In other words, they are in the source image itself, and it might not be possible to eliminate them via processing.

I agree that there is more to video processing than 2-3 judder. :)

Hi Erik

No problem.

I'm just watching MI3 HD DVD with the DHL Van - Vatican wall scene (1080i/60) and there is no moire as I've seen with the Pearl. This is not a result of poor mastering and /or encoding.

If fact at a recent meet attended by several forum members we used this scene as a test of video processing capability. They will confrim that this artefact is not visible on all displays but it is on the Pearl. :)

Dazzer

How would it be possible for the Pearl (or any display) to automatically and seamlessly remove 2-3 judder?

Let's consider a hypothetical example. Let's suppose you are watching a movie (shot at 24 Hz) on a TV channel (broadcasting at 60Hz). Hypothetically, your display is not showing 2-3 judder at 60 Hz refresh, but rather showing 4-4 judder at 96 Hz refresh. Then, all of a sudden, the TV channel shows a weather ticker along the bottom that crawls horizontally at 60Hz. What does the display do at this point? Does the display stay at 96Hz refresh, so the movie still has 4-4 judder, but the ticker is not smooth? Or does the display switch to 60Hz refresh, so that the ticker is smooth, but the movie reverts to having 2-3 judder? Does the switch to 60 Hz happen automatically and seamlessly, with no noticeable glitches from one frame to the next? When the ticker eventually goes away, does it switch back to 96 Hz? Or perhaps, instead of 96 Hz, the display always refreshes at 120 Hz (which is a multiple of both 24 Hz and 60 Hz), so the display would not have to switch.

In my experience, the Pearl does none of the above. When I feed it a 60 Hz signal, it refreshes at 60Hz, even when the signal has 2-3 pulldown.

Maybe some displays detect it as an artifact and eliminate it. ?

Isn't this thread about the Pearl's video processing capablity ? If it were a source artifact that can be eliminated by video processing and the Pearl doesn't eliminate it you still have the same answer. :)

Dazzer

Nope, sorry. I'm reading threads like this to decide if the Pearl is good enough or to wait for the Pearl replacement announcement at CEDIA.

If it's in the source, then the Pearl is being faithful to the source is all I was pointing out. Artifacts which truly are artifacts such as 3:2(an artifact which is added to the output which theoretically can be removed to regain the source, an exception would be if your player added CUE), feathering from 1080i to 1080p, those aren't part of the source. What happens when a processor detects wrongly? Let's say a source has bad macro-blocking. In that case you might like a de-macroblocking algorithm, but what happens when that "macro-blocking" is really just film grain? You've now affectively reduced resolution and took away something the director had there intentionally. A perfect video processor would take the source, process what's there and output exactly the way it was stored.

If it's the source then it would show in the 1080p signal given the source is stored in 24 progressive frames. The artefact appears when the Pearl de-interlaces a 1080i/60 signal. :)

If you want to believe this is the result of the Pearl being faithful to source then knock yourself out but I'll pass. :p I'm simply providing feedback on my experience of the Pearl.

Dazzer

Guys, can we drop this? Pearl does NOT do IVTC for a 2/2 multiple panel display. Pearl does IVTC and outputs at 60Hz with the usual 2/3 repeat sequence. I proved the case with a 1080i IVTC TS test pattern clip running 1080i and 1080p HDMI to the Pearl with the same playback behavior. Check my earlier post in this thread or my other Pearl thread.

regards,

Li On

Guys, can we drop this? Pearl does NOT do IVTC for a 2/2 multiple panel display. Pearl does IVTC and outputs at 60Hz with the usual 2/3 repeat sequence. I proved the case with a 1080i IVTC TS test pattern clip running 1080i and 1080p HDMI to the Pearl with the same playback behavior. Check my earlier post in this thread or my other Pearl thread.

regards,

Li On


Li On

We are both confirming the same findings I think regarding the removal of 3:2 induced judder i.e. the Pearl doesn't. That still leaves questions about other aspects of the Pearl's video such as deinterlacing artefacts with 1080i HD source material. :)

Dazzer

Guys, can we drop this? Pearl does NOT do IVTC for a 2/2 multiple panel display. Pearl does IVTC and outputs at 60Hz with the usual 2/3 repeat sequence. I proved the case with a 1080i IVTC TS test pattern clip running 1080i and 1080p HDMI to the Pearl with the same playback behavior. Check my earlier post in this thread or my other Pearl thread.

regards,

Li On

Li On-

With all due respect, you will also see that after your post I asked:

"Well, obviously folks are seeing some different things. It might be useful to identify why (such as how the "HD Mediabox" connects to the Pearl, etc...).


So while I respect your having tested things, Kevin Collin's opinion differs from yours, hence I was hoping you could identifiy some details of your test. Here you identified it was a HDMI connection. How about your DDE settings?

That post from Amir is actually what prompted me to PM him, and he in turn put me in touch with Kevin.