Am I the first to Post on the New Z5? [Text View]

jigesh

11-01-06, 09:04 AM

Is it mostly a Z4 or are there real improvements? waiting...

Based on this review: (http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages_b/plvz5.html)

Ever since the first “Z” projector came out about 5 years ago, fans of low-cost home theater have flocked to these products. With each successive generation, resolution was improved (PLV-Z2), color and gamma tweaked (PLV-Z3), and black levels and contrast souped up (PLV-Z4).

Now, the latest “Z” projector brings a few more tricks to the table, including a dual iris system for even higher contrast (factory claim is 10,000:1), dual HDMI inputs, 12-bit signal processing, and improved color management. Throw in a predicted MAP of $1695, and the PLV-Z5 could turn out to be quite a bargain.

And....

Sanyo’s PLV-Z5 is indeed a step up from the acclaimed Z4. The differences may not be as dramatic as you’d expect from the marketing literature, but you will see better contrast and improved color shading.

jigesh

11-01-06, 07:59 PM

Got this link from the AV Forums.

Preview of Z5 (From German to English Translation). (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cine4home.de%2Ftests%2Fprojekto ren%2FSanyoZ5Preview%2FZ5Preview.htm&langpair=de%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools)

(The translation is funny sometimes; but non-German speakers can get some preview.)

johnson_sb

11-01-06, 11:57 PM

From http://www.projectorreviews.com/

"Update 11/1: Sanyo PLV-Z5 review almost done, posting 11/2."

CMRA

11-02-06, 08:05 AM

Ah, guys, I should have been more exact. Those reviews are a dime a dozen. I WANT your First Hand feedback. Mostly members upgrading and have something on hand to compare it with. Thanks.

alexsquared

11-02-06, 09:01 AM

What makes things even better, is there is a end-user rebate program going on right now :)

ShiningBengal

11-02-06, 09:43 AM

Ah, guys, I should have been more exact. Those reviews are a dime a dozen. I WANT your First Hand feedback. Mostly members upgrading and have something on hand to compare it with. Thanks.

As I type, my new Z5 is on a UPS delivery van. I am working from home so I will be sure to get it today.

I am replacing a 3 year old Z2 which has just been recalibrated and had its firmware updated. I am projecting from a ceiling mount onto a Carada 102" Brilliant White (1.4 gain) screen. The picture on the Z2 is not all that bad to my eyes, but I am looking forward to more color depth, more contrast, better blacks and more accurate gray scale.

The bolt holes on the Z5 are the same as those of the Z2, so it shouldn't take more than a minute or two to mount to my existing mount.

I will post my initial impressions as soon as I have had a chance to make some basic adjustments with my AVIA calibration DVD. :D

thenewbruno

11-02-06, 01:56 PM

seems the Z5's SDE is taking some flak over (what may be the misinterpreted) bare-bones review on projector central.

here's what it says:

If you plan to view a very large image from a close distance, say a 120" diagonal picture from a distance of ten feet, you will see some subtle pixelation in the Z5 image that won't be there on the AX100U. It will be most apparent in white text, rolling credits, and subtitles, and will usually not be noticed in the video image itself. If you move back to a viewing distance of thirteen feet, the pixel structure in the Z5's image pretty much goes away since it is difficult to see details that small from that distance. Personally, the Z5's pixel structure does not bother me at all, but for those who are hypersensitive to pixel structure and who plan to sit close to the screen, the AX100U is better at eliminating this artifact.

So how did we come to draw negative attention to the Z5's possible screen door effect? Let's wait for some more in-depth and first hand opinions.

CSB

11-02-06, 02:10 PM

jigesh

11-02-06, 03:21 PM

What makes things even better, is there is a end-user rebate program going on right now :)

Most dealers haven't posted the official rebate form yet, but here's the link from Sanyo's website. (http://www.sanyo.com/business/projectors/downloads/PLV_Z5.RebateCertificate.pdf)

dbldare

11-02-06, 03:36 PM

So far I haven't had a chance to do ANY adjustments to it, but i'm running a 94" (crappy) screen and sit about 12 feet back. SDE is not a factor AT ALL. Maybe I'm not as prone to it as others, but my 36 year old (20/20) eyes don't notice it. I can't wait to finish my DIY screen to give it a decent testing.

Mike

jigesh

11-02-06, 03:38 PM

gwrieger

11-02-06, 03:40 PM

A sub-1500$ HD projector of this quality. That's quite hard to pass up. ---

HeadRusch

11-02-06, 03:45 PM

Who is going to be selling this thing that will allow me to purchase it to try it out? It sounds like it might be a good PJ for me but being my first I really don't know how sensitive I will be SDE, etc. Are there any retailers (online or otherwise) from whom you can purchase, give it a quick try out, and return (without a significant restocking fee) if you just don't like it?

Few to none, I think one of the forum sponsors (ProjectorPeople?) offer a 4 hour "demo" mode where so long as you put less than 4 hours on the bulb you can return it, but I'm not sure if there is a fee or not.

As far as I know, if PP are the ones that offer that, they are the *only* ones that offer that.

Thats why many people hope and pray that places like Costco or Sams or even Best Buy and the like would sell these things, as B&M return policies tend to be alot more liberal than internet-only E-tailers. No restocking fees, no questions asked returns, etc.

Also, The Sanyo's sharpness seems to be a running "theme" in regards to their battle with Panasonic for LCD supremacy :) If you want a sharper picture with more screendoor, go Sanyo. If you want a slightly less sharp picture, but can sit anywhere at all and never see screendoor, choose Panny.

The two also love to wage price wars.....

CT_Wiebe

11-02-06, 04:21 PM

As thenewbruno pointed out, PJC says that there was some minor SDE at 10' from a 120" screen. That's viewing at 1.15 x screen width from the screen and is about the same as exhibited by the Z3 that I had demo-ed for me (by a fellow AVS member). Since I sit 11' from a 106" screen (1.43 x screen width) I won't seee the SDE at all (the recommended viewing distance is 1.5 x screen width, some members like to sit closer, of course).

The Z5 should be about twice as bright as the old AE300 that I had (which is why I bought a Da-Lite High Power screen, gain = 2.8). So it should be a lot brighter than I would need (or want), even with moderate room lighting.

One of the AVS Forum Alliance Members (links at the top of each forum page) has a pre-order that is lower than the AX100 even before the Sanyo $200 rebate (coupon on their website) and it includes a 1-year warranty extension (4-years total). That is pretty hard to beat. I would dearly love to get one of the 1080p PJs, but they're just out of my price league for at least a year.

Since Art's (presenter) review should be posted shortly (today per johnson_sb -- Post #29, above), I am waiting for a good review. The PJC reviews seem a little flakey as of late and they do not appear to be anywhere near as comprehensive as the ones they published several years ago (back when I bought my AE300 based on their review, before I found the AVS forum).

CMRA-- Yes this seems to be the first Z5 thread that I've seen, thanks :D. I was about to start one myself, since no one seems to have done so, curious.

tvted

11-02-06, 05:01 PM

I would dearly love to get one of the 1080p PJs, but they're just out of my price league for at least a year.

I feel much the same way so I might be looking for a "side"grade as well. So you keep me posted Claus, re CR, film-like, and the all important SDE thingy. I'm a close sitter. ;)

The Pearl might be tempting come Spring though.

ted

jigesh

11-02-06, 05:12 PM

...CMRA-- Yes this seems to be the first Z5 thread that I've seen, thanks :D. I was about to start one myself, since no one seems to have done so, curious.

Few other threads with some scatterd info on Z5 as well:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=736111&highlight=z5

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=738172&highlight=z5

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=739774&highlight=z5

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=732450&highlight=z5

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=737291&highlight=z5

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=741397&highlight=z5

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=741860&highlight=z5

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=719397&highlight=z5

tclp

11-02-06, 05:53 PM

Canadians screwed again on rebates... *sigh*

Smegger

11-02-06, 06:43 PM

as well as Aussies. Not even a mention of the Z5 on the au Sanyo site.

It's about au$4-500 more that the pan ax100 here.....

CT_Wiebe

11-02-06, 06:55 PM

jigesh -- Thanks, I forgot about those. The 3rd one is the only one with any "meat" to it. Most of them said "the poster didn't want it" (an oversimplification, of course). The 1st one is potentually usefull as a comparison thread. But still, none of them was intent on providing "real" information on the Z5. Hopefully this thread will.

I think the key will be when Art gets his review posted. Except for Cine4Home, his is the only other reviewer that I trust to provide a thorough and knowledgable review :cool:. Most of the ones I've seen so far are just "I looked at it and it was: (a) good, (b) average, (c) Ok, (d) not so good", (e) all ot the above, (f) none of the above :eek:.

======
[U]tvted[/U ]-- If I find out anything "earthshaking" I'll certainly send you a PM as well as posting it here. As you know, my MT700 is still a paperweight with a dead lamp. I'm torn between taking a chance on a replacement PE7700 lamp and just adding that money to a Z5 (or Epson Cinema 400, or AX100, in that order). I'm getting a little tired of the limitations of my backup Mitsubishi HC3 (960 x 540 LCD) that I'm using (it was cheap though). So far, the Z5 seems to be the most desireable for me (my 106" High Power screen doesn't need more than 350 to 500 lumens for daytime viewing with reasonable ambient light).

Regarding 1080p PJs, if the HC5000BLc omes even close to the PQ of the Mits DLP RPTV that I saw in Costco last week, it would be really nice, but still too rich for my budget. The Pearl sounds nice too, for more money. As long as I'm dreaming, why not go for the Optoma HD81, it's better and also made out of unobtainium :D.

======
That's a real bummer for you non-USA members. Both the Z5 & Epson 400 (unusual) are significantly less $ than the AX100 here (although probably not for long).

jigesh

11-02-06, 07:20 PM

..I think the key will be when Art gets his review posted...

Here is the link but only he can activate it :D :p

http://www.projectorreviews.com/Manufacturers/sanyo/plvz5/index.asp

CMRA

11-02-06, 07:36 PM

jigesh . As long as I'm dreaming, why not go for the Optoma HD81, it's better and also made out of unobtainium :D.

.

Weren't all projectors made of that a few years back?

MAX HD

11-02-06, 08:10 PM

Just got mine today.Feeding it some nice HD via OTA(ABC Ugly Betty) thru an RCA ATSC11 with the component outputs set at 720P.It's absolutely drop dead gorgeous.No SDE unless within 5ft of the 90"screen(and that's if I'm looking for it).Like previous reviewers stated,it's lights-out for best black levels.Only thing adjusted so far is clamping the iris down a little.

Now I've got to get me a decent DVD player!

Only reference I have was an X1 I had about 3yrs ago.This pj displays HD much better.

Greg B

hauer

11-02-06, 10:42 PM

Thanks for posting this tread, most appreciated! I'm a 1st timer to this pj lifestyle. And have Art's review, (cine4home also) looming over my head too. It's weird, Art having all of us under his spell. He's good, huh. So I'm a Z-5 wonabee. Wishing Costco would put out the way Art is about to do. Again seems this purchase may be from a non-costco source a major bummer. These other venders have lousy return policies. 15days with a 20% restocking charge, thats mild dubious. Who would return their machine with just a few hours on it? Is that all we have for purchase choices? Lastly question to CT_Wiebe. For screens I'm planning on a high power 106' as you did. Any regrets? Do crave a HCMW instead?

And so we wait...... hey Art, got milk?

Eric

Kilgore

11-03-06, 12:08 AM

I got a Sanyo Z4 just over a week ago that replaced my 2 year old Z2. I'm shooting it at a 133" Hi Power screen. I asked my dealer about Z5 pricing and was quoted a price that was $600-700 more than what I paid for the Z4 w/ free lamp, so I went for the Z4. It is a massive improvement on my Z2. Great contrast, much better black levels and colors.

I mention this here because just this weekend I was on my dealers website, and it turns out that they are offering the Z5 WITH a free lamp for only $330 more than what I paid for the Z4. Also, the dealer is closed until next Wednesday, Nov. 8. I e-mailed and phoned to leave a message in the hopes that they will let me exchange my Z4 for the Z5 if I pay the $330 difference. I think this is more than reasonable since I am using the replacement lamp, and have only put 8 hours on the original bulb, and I would be able to use the lamp I am using now as my replacement for the Z5, assuming they go for it. I have only had the Z4 for a week or so.

I mention this here in this Z5 thread just because on the off chance that they actually do allow the exchange (anyone think my exchange request is unreasonable?), I will be able to give a good comparison between the Z4 and Z5. I am totally enjoying the Z4 and am curious to see how much beytter the Z5 really is.

CT_Wiebe

11-03-06, 12:34 AM

CMRA -- Yup. It wasn't until the Z1's & AE100's showed up, that prices started to get more reasonable. When I got my 1st LCD PJ (in the early '80s), I paid $7000 for a second from the bottom level Sharp unit with a whopping 640 x 480 resolution. I have no idea what the CR was, but I doubt it was even 200:1 (although it seemed pretty good at the time -- I calibrated it with Joe Kane's "A Video Standard" on laserdisc).

MAX HD -- Glad your enjoying yours. Your observations on SDE is about what I would have expected. Keep those cards & letters coming. For a DVD player, I would recommend at least the Sony DVP-NS75H, but either the Oppo 970H or their 971H (HDMI input only) would be better. See the DVD Player (Standard Def) forum. An AVS friend (ChrisW6ATV) of mine has the Toshiba HD-A1 player and he loves it, but it is more expensive than the ones I recommended.

hauer -- The only (minor) regret is that it is a very bright screen and most of the newer PJs require the use of ND2 filters to cut their brightness by 50%. Ceiling mounting the PJ will accomplish about the same thing (gain = 2.8 for shelf mounting and about = 1.6 for a ceiling mounted PJ). Since my HT is also my Living Room, I have to use a pull-down screen. The advantage of the Hi-Power is that it its a heavy material (my 106" Da-Lite Model C HP weighs a whopping 58 lbs.) which resists the developement of waves. The only other way is to use a tensioned screen, but these are a lot more expensive. If you can go with a fixed screen, a HCMW or HCCV would be a better choice (the Carada BW Criterion series screen would be great). If cost is not that much of a factor, the Stewart Firehawk would be a really excellent choice (contact the AVS Sales Team for the best screen prices - ecxcept for the Carada = MFG direct, only).

Kilgore -- Good Luck. The Z5 "should" be better than the Z4. Your price quote is interesting since the Z5 is only about a $100 more than the Z4 from my favorite AVS Alliance Menber source (a US source makes a difference though).

Kilgore

11-03-06, 12:56 AM

Kilgore -- Good Luck. The Z5 "should" be better than the Z4. Your price quote is interesting since the Z5 is only about a $100 more than the Z4 from my favorite AVS Alliance Menber source (a US source makes a difference though).

Yes, but I am in Canada. After duty, shipping and what not is paid, I am still getting a deal. Also, by buying Canadian, my warranty is covered by Sanyo Canada.

S.Cane

11-03-06, 01:34 AM

Art's review of the Z5 is now posted!

http://www.projectorreviews.com/Manufacturers/sanyo/PLVZ5/index.asp

presenter

11-03-06, 02:02 AM

Greetings all,

OK my PLV-Z5 review is up, and to answer CMRA, the Z5 is definitely evolutionary, relative to the Z4. Once again, very sharp image, but shadow detail is excellent (and better), black levels seem to be improved (long time since I've had a Z4 to play with).

Also I didn't encounter any banding.

One, "same old problem" out of the box color is not impressive. But nothing that can't be corrected.

Considering the low price and the $200 rebate, starting on day one, it definitely has a great value proposition. Brightness is up, but no match for the Panny in that regard. The Z5, I think will really appeal to those looking for great movie quality, and aren't looking for a large screen (best 106" and smaller, 110" with a + gain screen like the StudioTek 130 or Carada BW, etc.

For the image quality serious, this LCD projector may be one that many who normally gravitate to DLP, may really like. -art

Anyway, sorry it took so long.

BTW Optoma HD70 is on the way - that will be next week's review, and it looks like the Panny AE1000U will be the following week!

Kilgore

11-03-06, 02:24 AM

Art...so then, do you think it's worth it for me to spend the extra $330CAN and try to get my dealer to exchange my 9 day old Z4 for a Z5? Will I be missing out on a lot if they don't allow it?

S.Cane

11-03-06, 02:27 AM

Boy Art as good tast, doesn't he! I especially liked this shot here. :D

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g286/KGunz/Sanyo_PLVZ5_SinCity_NancyDancing.jpg

bmxsummoner

11-03-06, 03:26 AM

Brilliant review Art. Waiting for mine to arrive, so the info will definitely be a big help along the way.

jigesh

11-03-06, 06:10 AM

Thank you, Art. I hope the skin tone can still be refined - looks a bit yellow/green tint in it judging from the pictures.

EDIT:-

OK, I found answer to my concern in Art's review itself:

The end result was very enjoyable flesh tone handling, (although a slight shift to orange, that a little more effort should have fixed).

CSB

11-03-06, 06:56 AM

Hmmm. I was worried about SDE but it sounds like my bigger problem with this projector may be the brightness. My seating to screen width is about 1.5-1.6 so SDE probably won't be an issue for me although I don't really know how sensitive I am to it. But, with a 114" Carada BW (1.4 advertised gain) and some interest in minimal ambient light for sporting events it sounds like it might not be bright enough. It's this or the ax-100 for me. Any opinions?

briandx

11-03-06, 07:10 AM

Great review Art! I know there are many in this forum and elsewhere that really use the information from reviews like this, as most of us will not be able to personally preview the equipment before buying.

One thing about the review did puzzle, however. If I read your summary correctly, you are giving this projector a slightly less than full reccomendation due to out of box color issues. But since this problem is correctable by calibration (which any serious owner would do anyway), I'm not sure why this would be an issue at all in terms of the other overwhelming positives you listed.

Just curious :rolleyes:
Brian

jigesh

11-03-06, 08:44 AM

..One thing about the review did puzzle, however. If I read your summary correctly, you are giving this projector a slightly less than full reccomendation due to out of box color issues. But since this problem is correctable by calibration (which any serious owner would do anyway), I'm not sure why this would be an issue at all in terms of the other overwhelming positives you listed...Brian

Less lumens, possibility of more SDE compared to "smoothscreen" technology could also be the additional reasons.

KeithfromCanada

11-03-06, 08:57 AM

BRI59

11-03-06, 09:02 AM

Orwellflash

11-03-06, 09:08 AM

Art, thanks for another wonderfully detailed review. Does the Z5 still include the panel cleaning tool (puffer) that the Z4 had? Also, given that calibration is a key issue for many projectors, it would be great if you could (if your review schedule gives you a chance, that is) review the Spyder TVPro, or something similar, to let us know if it can be a bridge solution between basic calibration disks and a full ISF calibration.

Jack

dbldare

11-03-06, 09:15 AM

Yes. There is a WOW effect for me. I am still trying to dial it in though. Watching HD through this thing with my crappy screen, the image is incredible! I'll post my review when I can get an accruate screen.

Yes - The Z5 comes with the "puffer tool".

Mike

3Aims

11-03-06, 09:20 AM

CT_Wiebe

11-03-06, 09:25 AM

I just finished reasing Art's review too (another cudo :D). It sure looks like there will be a Z5 under my Christmas Tree. Since I have the GetGray Caldisc (highly recommended - www.caldisc.tv) in addition to AVIA and DVE, I shouldn't have any problems dialing it in. With my 106" Da-Lite High Power screen, I also won't have any brightness problems (and probably will have to dial the iris down more than Art did). I certainly won't have any daytime light issues, given the fact that ambient light screws up CR anyway :eek:.

CSB -- You shouldn't have any problems with that screen and the Z5, unless you want Plasma brightness in full daylight (no shades/drapes pulled - even an AX100 won't work then either). The 114" screen is 16% larger than mine and it's gain is 50% of mine. In the Vivid Mode (from Art's "General Performance" section), the Z5 puts out 861 lumens. This should give you about 30.4 foot-lamberts which is bright enough for viewing in some ambient light - enough for watching football - and you still have more available in the dynamic mode. To put it another way, you should get about the same as I will in its Creative Cinema Mode, Iris closed. Art used a 110" Carada BW screen (7.4% less screen area than your 114" screen - you can't really notice a 7% difference in brightness), so read what he said about the Z5's performance on that screen.

Unless you're a brightness junkie, it should be fine. Otherwise you could always go with the Epson Cinema 400 or the Panny AX100, in that order of increased brightness capability (ignoring other characteristics).

briandx -- All Art said was that he was a little disappointed with the Z5's OOB color performance when compared to its closest competitors, the EP 400 & AX100. But it was nothing that an hour, or so, of working with a good calibration DVD shouldn't be able to take care of.

That same effort should be used on any PJ anyway, to fine tune their performance for your HT configuration (screen, DVD player, room characteristics, etc.). It's just that the Z5 requires it, whereas the Ep 400 & AX100 don't. But for less money and longer warranty, I'm not going to argue the point. It's quiet too, no light leaks, and no "hot breath" on the back of my neck (I sit about 20" from the left front of the PJ).

P.S. Thanks again, Art, a great review :D.

CMRA

11-03-06, 09:43 AM

I could see quite a lot of screen door on every single image posted in the review, which is worrying me (never worried much about it before as I prefer a sharper image and this brings with it some SDE). The SDE looks really obvious though and I'm wondering if it's something to do with the way the shots were taken?

If you open the screenshots of Arwen from the AX100 review and Z5 review and switch between them on the taskbar there are big differences between the images. Would you say this is representative, or more to do with how the shots were taken at the time? (I know this is less than scientific and even a little bit naughty of me, but I do see a massive difference between the two shots and can't help comparing.)

AX100 > http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-06/Panasonic_AX100U_LOTR_Arwen1large.jpg
Z5 > http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-06/Sanyo_PLVZ5_LOTR_arwen2Large.jpg

Thanks.

I'd be alot more concerned wth the color. While the Panny looked spot on the Z5 needs some serious color correcting...if that is indicative of the two PJs. Ironically, the Minnie Driver(Carlotta) Z5 (POTO) image faired very well, at least on my monitor.

CT_Wiebe

11-03-06, 09:43 AM

I could see quite a lot of screen door on every single image posted in the review, which is worrying me (never worried much about it before as I prefer a sharper image and this brings with it some SDE). The SDE looks really obvious though and I'm wondering if it's something to do with the way the shots were taken?

If you open the screenshots of Arwen from the AX100 review and Z5 review and switch between them on the taskbar there are big differences between the images. Would you say this is representative, or more to do with how the shots were taken at the time? (I know this is less than scientific and even a little bit naughty of me, but I do see a massive difference between the two shots and can't help comparing.)

AX100 > http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-06/Panasonic_AX100U_LOTR_Arwen1large.jpg
Z5 > http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-06/Sanyo_PLVZ5_LOTR_arwen2Large.jpg

Thanks.Are you sure that you and 40xbr700_Owner aren't looking at a monitor with SDE? I looked at those pictures again and I don't see any SDE on them. You guys must either have extreme visual acuity, or just a bias (?) against LCD PJs. If you can see SDE on those pictures, then get a different PJ ;). No one has said that you have to buy a Z5. The only picture that Art posted that really shows the Z5's SDE is http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-06/Sanyo_PLVZ5_PhantomNecklaceLarge.jpg, and that was an extreme close-up, adjusted in exposure, to show the pixel structure. No one would sit that close anyway (and if you do, you don't want to buy it anyway).

Don't blast the Z5 just because you don't think it wlll work for you guys.

Orwellflash

11-03-06, 09:47 AM

Yes - The Z5 comes with the "puffer tool".

Mike

Mike, Thanks for the info!

Jack

bmxsummoner

11-03-06, 09:57 AM

Are you sure that you and 40xbr700_Owner aren't looking at a monitor with SDE? I looked at those pictures again and I don't see any SDE on them. You guys must either have extreme visual acuity, or just a bias (?) against LCD PJs. If you can see SDE on those pictures, then get a different PJ ;). No one has said that you have to buy a Z5. The only picture that Art posted that really shows the Z5's SDE is ****** and that was an extreme close-up, adjusted in exposure, to show the pixel structure. No one would sit that close anyway (and if you do, you don't want to buy it anyway).

Don't blast the Z5 just because you don't think it wlll work for you guys.

I for one do see it (SDE). And I think the picture you cited won't indicate in any way a pj's susceptibility to screen door for the obvious reason that at that distance, you'd see it. We'll be more enlightened if a few other Z5 owners tell us their experience of it. I bought one and will be with me soon. I'll be viewing at a distance of 9 feet on an 81 inch (diag.) screen, so worry has crept in. Here's one I already found in one of the av forums here in the UK:

Having played with the Z5, with a 110ins screen i thought screen door was too much @10ft. it wrecked the viewing experience as i could clearly see SDE. you need to sit quite far back for it to be gone, say at least 14ft for a 110ins screen. tis a sharp bugger though, hence the SDE.

jigesh

11-03-06, 10:14 AM

SDE on this PJ should not be worse than any other LCD projector without smoothscreen technology. For the SDE-prones, Panny could be a better choice. I agree with others that those screenshots would not tell the true story about SDE and even others' experiences may not be applicable since it (SDE) is a very personal thing and no alternative to seeing it in person.

Confiscated60

11-03-06, 10:43 AM

The first thing I noticed about Art's review pics was the obvious screen door effect (pixelation) of nearly all the images, whether close-up or not. None of his other projector reviews showed SDE nearly as much. Maybe Art can chime in on what we are seeing here.

BRI59

11-03-06, 10:51 AM

Are you sure that you and 40xbr700_Owner aren't looking at a monitor with SDE? I looked at those pictures again and I don't see any SDE on them. You guys must either have extreme visual acuity, or just a bias (?) against LCD PJs. If you can see SDE on those pictures, then get a different PJ ;). No one has said that you have to buy a Z5. The only picture that Art posted that really shows the Z5's SDE is http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-06/Sanyo_PLVZ5_PhantomNecklaceLarge.jpg, and that was an extreme close-up, adjusted in exposure, to show the pixel structure. No one would sit that close anyway (and if you do, you don't want to buy it anyway).

Don't blast the Z5 just because you don't think it wlll work for you guys.

I'm not blasting the Z5, I have been eagerly awaiting this review as I'm planning to buy a Z5. I have seen the Z4 in action and SDE was not a problem, I couldn't even see SDE unless I walked right up to the screen. That's why the very obvious SDE evident in the photo's in the review is troubling me.

I am amazed that anyone would look at those screen shots and not see SDE. The only ones I can't see really obvious SDE on are the Sin City car and the Space Cowboys planet.

By the way, I have never posted about SDE before, and my bias is firmly in favour of LCD! My decision is precariously balanced between the Z5 and AX100, and the SDE vs. Smoothscreen issue is the last remaining battleground. It wasn't even an issue until I cast my eyes on those shots.

It's a great review and very positive, but when I look at the screenshots I see SDE, the likes of which I haven't seen on any pictures posted on Z4/Z5 reviews before, or when I saw the Z4 in action.

jigesh

11-03-06, 10:55 AM

The first thing I noticed about Art's review pics was the obvious screen door effect (pixelation) of nearly all the images, whether close-up or not...

I think pixelation and SDE are different. Pixelation can be due to JPEG compression in camera images and/or your computer monitor's resolution setting. Audioholics.com has AX100 review and images there suffer from JPEG compression artifacts, for example.

bri1270

11-03-06, 10:59 AM

BRI59, I share the exact same opinion. The SDE Troubled me greatly as I too was eagerly awaiting the review. However, as someone preivously posted, maybe Art can chime in and give some additional insight.

ctviggen

11-03-06, 11:10 AM

After reading Art's review, I'm conflicted as to whether to buy the AX100 or the Sanyo. I actually liked the screen door effect (although I do not see this in the large pictures, at least that much anyway), as I felt this made for a more crisp image. I do have to comment that the Samsung killed the AX100 and Sanyo in terms of realistic color rendition: The Samsung looks perfect, while the Sanyo looks yellowish and the Panny orangish. In comparing the three, I find the images from the Sanyo and Panny unwatchable. However, perhaps more calibration would help that. I also wish the Sanyo was brighter.

ctviggen

11-03-06, 11:12 AM

Oh yeah, Art, if you read this, "it's" means "it is", while "its" is possessive: It's a better projector because of its lens. This is a common mistake, but it drives me batty.

3Aims

11-03-06, 11:13 AM

briandx

11-03-06, 11:14 AM

As a person who is exceptionally bothered by SDE :eek: I have been reading any formal reviews about the Z5 very carefully for this aspect.

What I have been able to gleam is that from 1.6 x screen width or beyond, the pixels are virtually invisible. In my case, the screen width I am choosing is 80", and my viewing distance is 170", so it looks like I'm good to go.

Another point to consider is that with the Z5, you can slightly de-focus the picture if SDE is an issue for you. However, with the Panasonic, if SDE is not an issue you cannot add sharpness to the picture later on. It seems that the projector with the most choices is the Z5.

Finally, given the 3 year warrenty and reports of bulb flicker problems with the Panasonic in this forum, I think the Z5 is THE choice for most folks in the under $2K price range.

hauer

11-03-06, 11:14 AM

Again thanks to Art we have action. Those jpeg's on Art's review appear pixelated due to the fact they are low res jpeg's and not SDE. Am I wrong? I agree with the minion. SDE with this pj is no different then most other familiar LCD's, excluding the AX-100. I believe us new and future Z-5 owners will all sit back and have our socks blown off.

I think I can purchase with relative confidence thanks to this thread and many others and of course Art.

I'm looking at 106" high power 13' throw, 14' setting distance in a livingroom with some light control. SDE is mute point for my personal S/U. Thank you CT_Wiebe for your much appreciated reply, really helps!

Art mentioned only in passing the Z5's non DVD viewing ability. Via cable TV and hi-def Discovery Channel for example. Anyone have some specifics?

Eric

CMRA

11-03-06, 11:18 AM

merrymaid520

11-03-06, 11:41 AM

I enjoyed the review and just watched my Z5 on a Carada 92" BW screen last night for the first time. I know I really need to get a calibration disc, can I rent one from Blockbuster and will it include everything I need to adjust everything properly?

Overall, this is my first pj, it looks awesome with HD-DVD content and darn good sith SD DVD. My theater room is completely light controlled.

If Art is reading any of this, I know you recomend Creative Cinema mode, any other thoughts for other tweaks or settings? I really don't know much about all of the settings available and what lamp mode, & iris settings do.

I appreciate any help anyone can give me.

Brandon

mqj

11-03-06, 11:46 AM

mauitime

11-03-06, 11:59 AM

What about the Epson 400? Cant we put this in the same category? It did get the hot product award...

I am still torn between all 3 tell you the truth, but am leaning towards the Epson for brightness, price and dealing with Epson as a company. But it's hard not to snag a Panny! I'm a big Panny fan but am trying to put that aside and get the best PJ for my application.

J

BRI59

11-03-06, 12:07 PM

Those jpeg's on Art's review appear pixelated due to the fact they are low res jpeg's and not SDE. Am I wrong?

That is one thing we can definitely rule out. What we see in those images is not jpeg artifacting. Of course there will be jpeg artifacting on them, being jpeg's, but there isn't any jpeg artifacting that looks like SDE. Moire could be said to look like SDE, but there should not be any moire introduced as a result of resampling an image direct from a camera (and I am sure the reviewer knows how to present his images without introducing such anomalies, that is not in question).

caesar1

11-03-06, 01:20 PM

I admit that this projector is torturing me right now - the price point can't be beat. And the reviews look great.

But, I'm not sure it will throw enough lumens considering that I don't want to always have a completely light-controlled viewing, and I'd like to (for now) project directly on my wall (which is painted grey).

Can't beat the price though - seems like the Panasonic might be a better choice at the end of the day.

Looking forward to having my first projector up and running soon. ;)

I was torn too, until I saw the recommended screen size. I will have a completely light controlled home theater, but I want a screen size of over 110 inches (probably 118).

He doesn't recommend this PJ for a screen that size. Plus I want to sit about 11 feet back -- so too much SDE it looks like with the Sanyo at that distance.

caesar1

11-03-06, 01:32 PM

Greetings all,

The Z5, I think will really appeal to those looking for great movie quality, and aren't looking for a large screen (best 106" and smaller, 110" with a + gain screen like the StudioTek 130 or Carada BW, etc.

Does this apply if you have total light control?

I am looking at a 118 inch screen, but I have 100% light control (enclosed, dedicated home theater room).

My other concern is the seating is 11 feet. Is that too close for the Sanyo with the SDE?

Torn between the Sanyo, the Panasonic 100 and the Infocus IN76.

NineDayFall75

11-03-06, 01:37 PM

I think I'm leaning toward the Epson 400. What do you all think? I plan on going no larger than a 92" screen, maybe even an 84" screen. I will have low to moderate ambient light, being this will be in my living room. I plan on using it for HD-DVD, DVD and HDTV programming, as well as light Analog television viewing. This is such a hard decision, this will also be my first projector. So I am being really picky about it, I figured I'd consult the experts on my situation. The 3 I was considering was the Z5, the Epson 400 and the Optoma HD70.

jjw350z

11-03-06, 02:21 PM

Well, I too, just completed reading Art's review. Word for word.

Looks like another very nice PJ as Art says "for the money". I'm certain I could live with it though it has me wanting in one particular area: brightness.

My next theater screen (to absorb all that HDDVD goodness) will be 12'x5' 2.40 to 1, roughly 150" diagonal. Looks like a solid contender in the 100" crowd, however.
I'm not sold on the DI either.

Heck, I need a great excuse to hold out for a 1080p anyway.

I have the same reservations ... however ... my 60"x140" 2.35:1 High-Power just arrived. Given an estimated 2.5gain in the few sweet seats, I think this PJ in Hi-lamp is still viable.

Decisions, decisions....

buddahead

11-03-06, 02:35 PM

Are you sure that you and 40xbr700_Owner aren't looking at a monitor with SDE? I looked at those pictures again and I don't see any SDE on them. You guys must either have extreme visual acuity, or just a bias (?) against LCD PJs. If you can see SDE on those pictures, then get a different PJ ;). No one has said that you have to buy a Z5. The only picture that Art posted that really shows the Z5's SDE is http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-06/Sanyo_PLVZ5_PhantomNecklaceLarge.jpg, and that was an extreme close-up, adjusted in exposure, to show the pixel structure. No one would sit that close anyway (and if you do, you don't want to buy it anyway).

Don't blast the Z5 just because you don't think it wlll work for you guys.

I could ony see the SDE on that real closeup shot.The other's look great,The black level were amazing for a DLP.The shapness look better than my ax100.Colors look off.But that can be dialed in.To me this is Just a plain great FP for the money.I might have to get one and place it next to my ax100/Use the Z5 for movies in thedark.And the ax100 for sports and such with lights on.Still way less than a 1080 fp.Great Review again Art.I see alot of questions for Art.He is probably sleeping still.BUDDA

price3

11-03-06, 03:09 PM

Sounds like this is my next projector. I like the image much more than the AX100 pics, the blurriness of the smoothscreen is what bugs me the most with my 300U. Think I will wait a few weeks for the supply to come in and see what deals are out there around turkey day. If anyone is interested in a 300U with less than 500 hours on it pm me.

altec604

11-03-06, 03:11 PM

Are you sure that you and 40xbr700_Owner aren't looking at a monitor with SDE? I looked at those pictures again and I don't see any SDE on them. You guys must either have extreme visual acuity, or just a bias (?) against LCD PJs. If you can see SDE on those pictures, then get a different PJ ;). No one has said that you have to buy a Z5. The only picture that Art posted that really shows the Z5's SDE is http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-06/Sanyo_PLVZ5_PhantomNecklaceLarge.jpg, and that was an extreme close-up, adjusted in exposure, to show the pixel structure. No one would sit that close anyway (and if you do, you don't want to buy it anyway).

Don't blast the Z5 just because you don't think it wlll work for you guys.

The Z5 image is showing something and it ain't my monitor or the other 5 monitors in my office. It faintly looks like SDE when you compare it the to the Panny image. The images from Art that you can actually enlarge do show some type artifact compared to the Panny images. Anyway, I sold my Panny 900 because of the smooth screen effect and the noisy background started to grow on me that I couldn't live with it any longer. Some say SDE is not a real issue at a 1.5 TR with the Z4, Z5 and others say they can see it. I'm still on the fence regarding the Z5 and SDE. Looks like I'll have to save up some extra coin for a Pearl unless I can actually see a demo on the Z5.

TexasHeat

11-03-06, 04:22 PM

Well I really wanted to buy this projector also....

Because of the price, the warranty, the looks, that cool lens cap feature, and the larger lens shift. I'm sad to say that due to the screen size limitations along with the ambient light issues I have a couple major issues. I just want someone to lie to me and tell me it will work on a large screen and with moderate light. Lie to me puuuhllleease!!!

Back to the AX-100, I'm not considering the Epson because of the scaling limitations and how noisy it is supposed to be. So I guess the AX-100 from Costco is still #1. Too bad =(

Oh BTW, Thanks to Art for doing so much for those of us who wouldn't know any better otherwise. If this projector could come close to the AX-100 in terms of potential screen size and brightness I would have bought it without question. This is the projector I really wanted and for some reason I still find myself wanting to buy it over the panasonic. I do see a bit of softness in the menu comparison between the two. Argggg!!!

BLloyd

11-03-06, 04:25 PM

ShiningBengal,

I'm trying to resist the same urges you fell prey to (upgrading my 3 year old Z2). So the UPS guy shows up yesterday and?!?!?

Howz it look? Worth the upgrade?

Kilgore

11-03-06, 07:00 PM

jigesh

11-03-06, 07:01 PM

It's either smoothscreen (Panny LCD), SDE (other LCD), or head-aches/rainbows/placement (DLP), or more money (SXRD) or size/placement (CRT). Pick your poison. Some people have no problem with SDE, many have no head-ache, placement and/or rainbow issues with DLP and many have no issues with money. There never will be one product that will satisfy all. This (2006-'07) is an excellent time for 720p projector hunters though.

krasmuzik

11-03-06, 07:57 PM

Great review Art...as usual.

My issue is this -- I will be getting whatever PJ I purchase ISF calibrated. Smoothscreen, SDE and all other factors aside, I'm hoping to get Art's opinion as to what sub $2K PJ will give me the best image overall (greyscale tracking, black level, accurate color reproduction, sharpness, etc) once the ISF guy is finished with it.

My current short list includes:

Sanyo Z4 and Z5
Panny 900 and AX100
BenQ PE7700 (the only DLP that I'm aware of that will fit with my 7.5' ceiling...thanks to 0 degree offset).

Any thoughts from Art or the other technically inclined people???

Art does great subjective review comparisons with the screenshots, much better than that Projector site that thinks they are review Central :D.

If you want the hard objective calibration numbers with calibration charts rather than screenshots - then see my Z4 review on my website. I have not done any of the others yet, as my review units come from calibration customers. As Art said the Z5 is more of an evolution from the Z4.

CMRA

11-03-06, 07:58 PM

This (2006-'07) is an excellent time for 720p projector hunters though.

You said a mouthful. All True. None truer than this.

Jeff Whitford

11-03-06, 08:11 PM

I am stunned at how good my Z5 looks. I had a Sim2 HT250 DLP before.

MAX HD

11-03-06, 08:53 PM

[QUOTE=CT_Wiebe]CMRA -- Yup. It wasn't until the Z1's & AE100's showed up, that prices started to get more reasonable. When I got my 1st LCD PJ (in the early '80s), I paid $7000 for a second from the bottom level Sharp unit with a whopping 640 x 480 resolution. I have no idea what the CR was, but I doubt it was even 200:1 (although it seemed pretty good at the time -- I calibrated it with Joe Kane's "A Video Standard" on laserdisc).

MAX HD -- Glad your enjoying yours. Your observations on SDE is about what I would have expected. Keep those cards & letters coming. For a DVD player, I would recommend at least the Sony DVP-NS75H, but either the Oppo 970H or their 971H (HDMI input only) would be better. See the DVD Player (Standard Def) forum. An AVS friend (ChrisW6ATV) of mine has the Toshiba HD-A1 player and he loves it, but it is more expensive than the ones I recommended.

CT,
The first PJ I had was a Sharp XV-S90U back in the mid 90's.Loved that PJ...all 32 lbs! Powered lens,zoom,variable masking top and bottom.Got a deal on it for 6500.Front pj's have come a long way since then in terms of picture quality.The other nice features are still expensive it seems.

My audio system is a little outdated and I wonder if I can still use it with these new DVD players,with their digital audio outputs.A Pro-logic Fosgate Model Four processor feeding some Carver amps.It still sounds good enough to suit me :-)

Greg B

MAX HD

11-03-06, 09:10 PM

CT_Wiebe

11-03-06, 10:58 PM

MAX HD -- We're getting a little OT here. I'm sending you a PM.

As for the SDE argument, I won't get into that, any more, except to say that some people are very sensitive to it and others are not. I'm in the latter group - I watch the movie content and, if it's good, my mind doesn't register SDE, but I'm sensitive to motion artifacts. To my way of thinking, no PJ, or other type of display, is default free, so if the owner/viewer concentrates on the faults, no display will ever be satisfying to watch. To each, his own opinion, IMHO :rolleyes:.

P.S. What your seeing on your 27" CRT are the scan lines, not SDE (CRT's dont have SDE, only fixed pixel displays do).

bobpaule

11-03-06, 11:36 PM

Well dang! The Z5 is here already?

I haven't worn out my Z3 yet. In fact, I haven't even used the replacement bulb I bought as a spare 3 months after getting the Z3 in December 2003.

Although my Z3 continues to perform perfectly, and I still have that spare bulb on hand, it's going to be difficult to resist the Z5.

Same here, do resist the temptation, and we'll both the next crop of 1080p machines in the spring.

CMRA

11-04-06, 08:20 AM

goldy001us

11-04-06, 01:09 PM

My Z5 should be here tomorrow. I had a TDP-MT700 and will let you know how it compares once I get in and setup. Anyone know if the Z5 comes with ceiling mounting screws or will the ones from the MT700 fit in it? I didn't install the MT700 so I am not sure if the screws came with the projector or the ceiling kit.

BRI59

11-04-06, 03:05 PM

Someone earlier in the thread stated there were a lot of 'complaints' in this thread about the reviewer's pictures. What I see when I read the thread are posts from people who are genuinely concerned that they are seeing what looks like SDE on those photographs, and trying to get reassurance before purchasing.

A comment from Art would be great, because he could maybe say for sure he didn't see any more SDE on the Z5 than the Z4.

sundaekim

11-04-06, 04:40 PM

I just purchased the Z5 as my first pj and I am very happy with it. I have a dedicated theater room which is 14' x 20', with total light control. I'm using a 120" DIY screen made with 1"x2" frame wrapped with vinyl material used in billboard, primed and painted with Behr Silver screen color paint. I'm not sure what the gain is on the screen. My viewing distance is about 11' and I can't notice the SDE. I do notice the pixelation though. I am using a HTPC with XP MCE to play my DVD's so I may have to play around with the resolution setting to see if it will minimize the pixelation. I have not had a chance to play around with the setting to tweak the image quality, but I am glad I bought this pj.

caesar1

11-04-06, 05:43 PM

How does the sharpness of the Infocus IN76 compare to the sharpness on the Z5?

CT_Wiebe

11-04-06, 10:38 PM

Claus, he may be referring to the aperture grill.I haven't seen that on CRT sets in over 25 years. If I get close enough to my 27" Sony, I can see "apparent pixels" which result from the vertical trinitron masking and the horizontal scan lines.

sundaekim -- You need to set your HTPC to a 1280 x 720 screen resolution for the best signal transfer to your Z5.

caesar1 -- It should be slightly sharper (it's a DLP vs. the LCD Z5), but then it should be for almost twice the price. And the IN76 has a fixed offset, the center of the lens has to be about 16% below the bottom (or above the top, ceiling mount) of the screen.

presenter

11-05-06, 02:05 PM

Greetings all,

Just a quick note, about the Z5, and a couple of additional comments I added to it, today. On Friday, Mike came by to see the Z5, and I asked him to take a stab at calibrating it, trying to improve the color output (those that follow my reviews, know I only do brightness contrast and grayscale/colortemp).

It was very interesting, and what came out of it, is worth reporting. Upon working with the Z5, red color bars always came out too orange. We were never able to correct that. Going back and looking at some of the images in the review, such as the shot of Carlota from Phantom, which I am using in all my recent reviews, you can pick it up slightly there, more orange in the flowers on her costume, than on the same images right below, from the Samsung and the Panasonic.

I am contactinng Sanyo to see, if this is "normal" (that orangish a red), and how to get a pure red, if possible. I'll update the review, if I learn anything.

That said, those of you who have just gotten your Z5's, I would be most curious to find out what you see, if you put up some primary secondary color bars, and how your reds look. Afterall, it could be the review projector I received.

Thanks -art

presenter

11-05-06, 03:30 PM

The more people I see complaining about SDE in Art's screenshots, the more I know SDE won't be a problem at all. I have benefitted greatly by listening to the opinions of some of the more "perfectionist" people on this site and then going completely the other way.

Bottom line - pixel visibility, of course ties to screen size and seating distance. So it really comes down to how far back you want to sit.

The conundrum between the Panny and the Sanyo is that you can sit extremely close with the Panny, while you need to sit typical "lcd distance" back from the Z5.

But, the AX100u isn't as sharp, so if you do sit close, you will see the image as soft. With the Sanyo, though, the image is just sharper, so sharpness isn't the issue, just pixel visibility.

One other note, barely being able to see the pixels (ie, credits, large white stationary areas, etc.) and SDE, in my opinion, are not the same thing. At a certain point, if you sit close enough, you not only see the pixels more, but you start seeing your image distorting, due to the pixels, including muddying up the image (like the grass on a football field on certail shots), conflicting with "fine detail within the image (like blades of grass).

I have noted , for example, that I can watch - at a certain distance - HD sources, (at the point where pixels are barely visible, yet not notice any major distortion, but then switch to a low def source (same distance), and things start looking crappy, distorted... that football field (nice and clear) instead looks like an almost muddy field with strange distortions and individual detail gone. Part of that, BTW, I suspect may do with overscan (at least on TV sources), vs having 1:1 output after a HD source is rescaled to 720p, since I find it worse on TV than 480 on DVD sources?)

On the other hand, I'm not sure what the dictionary definition of SDE really is.

dedwards

11-05-06, 03:53 PM

S.Cane

11-05-06, 03:59 PM

Hello Art,

Here's Wikipedia definition of SDE.
The screen-door effect or fixed-pattern noise (FPN) is a visual artifact of the projection technology use in digital projectors, where the fine lines separating the projector's pixels become visible in the projected image. This results in an image that appears as if viewed through a fine screen or mesh such as those used on anti-insect screen doors. It most commonly appears as a rectangular grid (hence the name) or sometimes as a hexagonal structure.

The "Screen door effect" on DLP projectors can be mitigated by deliberately setting the projected image a little out of focus, which blurs the boundaries of each pixel to its neighbour. When done properly, this has a minimal effect on overall image sharpness with large projections (~100 inch projections at no greater than 1024x768) as each pixel occupies a moderate area. This focus minimizes the effect by filling the black pixel perimeters with adjacent light. There is current debate as to whether focusing the image in front of the plane of projection or behind the plane of projection gives superior results. Some older LCD projectors often have a more noticable screen door effect than first generation DLP projectors. Newer DLP chip designs promise closer spacing of the mirror elements which would reduce this effect, however some space is still required along one edge of the mirror to provide a control circuit pathway.

presenter

11-05-06, 04:16 PM

Hello Art,

Here's Wikipedia definition of SDE.

Thanks,

I personally don't like that definition, it basically describes any level of pixel visibility, even the slightest, and therefore doesn't help greatly as then SDE is whenever someone sees a pixel structure, no matter how slight.

There seems to be a point, though where the image degrades by more than the mere visibility of pixels, much like (and it's not in this case) moire patterns.... that come from overlaying two fixed pixel items (the projector, and the source).

If you have a real screen door, I think my point is true, at some distances you can see the screen door affecting what is beyond it, but with just the right type of small objects on the other side of the door, you notice more distortion, than on larger objects, where the screen simply adds texture (for lack of a better word).

The challenge, therefore, for me, is to draw the line between generally acceptable minor pixel visibility, and enough pixel visibility and other issues, that they are not just visible, but distort the image notably. That's why I try to define SDE as a more severe problem than basic pixel visibility. (maybe I'm nutz).

In other words, sort of like a reverse of 'performance of something exceeds the sum of its individual parts'.

krasmuzik

11-05-06, 05:07 PM

Greetings all,

It was very interesting, and what came out of it, is worth reporting. Upon working with the Z5, red color bars always came out too orange. We were never able to correct that. Going back and looking at some of the images in the review, such as the shot of Carlota from Phantom, which I am using in all my recent reviews, you can pick it up slightly there, more orange in the flowers on her costume, than on the same images right below, from the Samsung and the Panasonic. Pixelation is

Thanks -art

You need color targets in your calibration software (which I think yours has).

Then you need to pick red in the color management system from a reference colorbars pattern - and adjust the level to remove red push and the phase to make it more crimson.

Everyone else without calibration software needs to hire a calibrator or buy calibration tools to fix it.

The Z4 had the same problem - I got perfected reds - only green and yellow could not be fixed. CMS is not really a color decoder and color gamut adjuster - but it works OK for gross errors. Both the color decoder and color gamut on the Sanyo are flawed - and it makes a difference to get it close to proper as you can. Even the basic color/tint settings are not proper for a reference signal.

And I agree with you on SDE = when did anonymous posters to wikipedia become authoritive sources?

SDE is the width of the lines between the pixels - this is technology implementation specific. You could have a zero SDE technology with no visible grid between pixels - and still have visible pixel problems from low res compressed sources or motion/spatial dithering in the projector itself. The proper term to describe the pixel itself is MTF - the pixel could be a square or a diamond or a splotch or a beam and that impacts your perception of the picture as well.

S.Cane

11-05-06, 05:31 PM

Kras,

I posted wikipedia definition of SDE for Art, simply because it was the only one I could find at the time. I agree with you and Art though, it's not the best place for a point of reference on everything.

HoustonHoyaFan

11-05-06, 05:40 PM

presenter

11-05-06, 06:39 PM

Where happened to the stars in the Z5 shot??
http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-06/HC5000BL_iris_stars_closed.jpg
http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-06/Sanyo_PLVZ5_5thElement_iris_stars_closed.jpg

I have head of brightness compression, but this looks like brightness elimination! :)

Ahh, the problem with different net exposures, You'll notice the brighter blacks in the upper image letter box area, indicating that the lower image is underexposed relative to the upper one. I'll attribute most/not all of the loss of stars to the different exposures. This is typical with my digital camera (and most).

I bracket the exposures for most frames featuring star images, I try to pick one that shows all the stars, even if it means the black background is a little overexposed. Apparently not on that one.... In this case though, the purpose was to demonstrate the action of the dynamic iris. I just checked to see if I had a different exposure with slower shutter speed, but I do not.

So, best I can do is show you what I'm talking about:
http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-06/sanyo_PLVZ5_starsdim.jpg

http://www.projectorreviews.com/images-projectors-06/sanyo_PLVZ5_starsbright.jpg

There is about an f-stop and a half difference between the two images.

BTW, both the images you showed, and the ones I put here, are from The 5th Element, and would, I expect, be very similar in terms of starfield, relative to comparing two images from different movies (ie, 5th Element vs Space Cowboys).

Hope that helps -a

presenter

11-05-06, 06:41 PM

PS also - not "brightness compression" the stars that are missing are the really dim ones.

presenter

11-05-06, 06:59 PM

You need color targets in your calibration software (which I think yours has).

Then you need to pick red in the color management system from a reference colorbars pattern - and adjust the level to remove red push and the phase to make it more crimson.

Everyone else without calibration software needs to hire a calibrator or buy calibration tools to fix it.

Greetings Kras,

You are right, no doubt! Problem was, never found a way in the user areas of the menus, to do that. In the service menus perhaps. As you know that is a step beyond my "training". I had hoped Mike had a solution. I, of course expect it could be fixed, question is, can a "average" end user get the good results...

It's one of the reasons why I recommended calibration in this review, more than in any other review I have done. If you do lay your hands on a Z5, soon, PM me when you have the cure (post too, of course, but I'm not on the forum often enough to spot most of your posts. BTW, what do you charge for a full calibration of a projector like this (let's say, projector only calibrate, not room/screen)? -a

BRI59

11-05-06, 07:28 PM

The challenge, therefore, for me, is to draw the line between generally acceptable minor pixel visibility, and enough pixel visibility and other issues, that they are not just visible, but distort the image notably. That's why I try to define SDE as a more severe problem than basic pixel visibility.

I think that is right. When I demo'd the Z4, what I saw very close up to the screen (5ft away) was more what I would describe as a basic pixelation, just as likely to be produced by the source (standard def) and not the Z4. I was extremely impressed with the Z4's lack of ANY visible SDE (to my eyes), on the unit I saw. I thought 'if that is SDE, I don't have a problem with it!'

The 'pattern' on the pictures in the review is totally different, and much more pronounced than anything I saw on the Z4 that day. To me, those pics could very easily be behind an actual screen door! Maybe it was just the review unit that had some kind of panel fault, or tolerance slightly off, or whatever.

cappra

11-05-06, 08:19 PM

Art,
The colour management system (CMS) is in the advanced menu section, easily accessable and is very user friendly. It involves moving a pointer on to the colour you want to adjust and pressing the ok button, which opens a colour selection box and you can adjust the colour level, colour phase and gamma and then store the settings (8 colour adjustments can be saved) Though the range of colour adjustment is limited, it is a useful tool to dial in skin tones and other slightly off colours.

Klok

11-05-06, 09:25 PM

Possibly the Z5's greatest improvement comes in color performance. Even using out of the box settings, the Z5 produced extremely accurate color with better saturation. Color from every source we tested was rich and accurate. Grayscale tracking measured within 100 degrees Kelvin of 6500K from 30IRE up through 80IRE, with 90 and 100IRE showing a bit more warmth and dropping towards 5900K. This is exceptional performance from any projector, and is all but unheard of from a budget LCD projector like the PLV-Z5. (Bill Livolsi, Projector Central review)

Hard to believe we are talking about the same unit, huh? I need to put an end to my projector search, and I want it end in a Z5 (bet I'm not alone). Lets hope that Art is able to get to the bottom of this color issue. Art thank you so much for all of your efforts, I feel like I should be sending you a check! And Kras dont go anywhere, I have a feeling we might be needing you.

jigesh

11-05-06, 09:35 PM

Although this review was for a pre-production unit, (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.cine4home.de/tests/projektoren/SanyoZ5Preview/Z5Preview.htm&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=2&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dsanyo%2Bplv-z5%2Bcine4home%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-us%26sa%3DX) it mentions excellent out-of-the box colors unlike in case of Z4. However, the reality looks a bit different.

krasmuzik

11-05-06, 10:58 PM

jigesh

You are confusing grayscale plotted using RGB histograms and often refered to as color balance - with color decoding. Entirely different thing. The Z4 has excellent greyscale -if you pick the right modes - if the Z5 improves on that great.

BTW the RGB histogram for grayscale in your link is a bit misleading - the Z4 chart is a 10% grid, the Z5 chart is a 20% grid. So even if it was not worse - the Z4 would look worse! It also depends which of the low presets was picked as they vary slightly.

grayscale is your paper - video is your watercolors.

The problem is the color decoder of the video is wacky on the Z4 - beyond just bad color/tint presets - which sounds like nothing changed on the Z5. It affects every input just because people wanted color/tint controls on digital inputs. You can fix most of it with the RGB filters and decoder patterns in AVIA if you know what you are doing (or hire someone that does :D). The same CMS can be used to fine tune the color/tint of RGB as well as CMY if you have sensor gear (or hire someone that does :D)

Video is colorized B&W - so you have to understand that B&W is measured with grayscale and gamma (what is on Cine4home.de) chart. Sometimes they will show the gamut - which is the spectrum of RGBCMY flattened onto a triangle. With that you can see is red actually orange or crimson or pastel or deep? (I zoom into the target points on triangle) Color Decoding is rarely measured (I do this in my calibration reviews) - but is the brightness of color w.r.t white - incorrect color decoding is cause of infamous red push.

So a complete measure of a calibration includes - grayscale, gamma, and color gamut/decoding. I do all of these on an objective scale - and if any adjectives are used they are ranked using the objective scale. But I do calibration reviews - not projector reviews.

Richer...better....popping....fruity are meaningless review adjectives. I have no clue what is meant by them other than - buy this projector please.

bmxsummoner

11-06-06, 02:40 AM

For those worried about SDE and/or pixelation, here's my experience of it. First things first: I'm a total newbie on home cinema, though I'd done a bit of photography and post-editing as a hobby so my eye is a bit more 'trained'. Carrying on, my viewing distance is 10 feet on an 81 inch (diagonal) matte white screen with a 1.4 gain (it's one of those electric German-made screens you can get on eBay), and room has cream walls but windows are blacked out. Image is driven by a Denon dvd player via hdmi. What I see is this: certain large portions of a picture where it is dominated by a single gray/bluish gray colour (so far it is only that colour where I see it), I would see some of what I think is SDE, similar to what I saw on those pictures posted by Art, only smaller in scale. I'll say that when viewing the whole of the scene, I totally miss the effect, so SDE is negligible in that respect, if not non-existent.

jigesh

11-06-06, 06:09 AM

mbonikow

11-06-06, 11:35 AM

johnson_sb

11-06-06, 11:45 AM

Wow. Could someone please translate what Kras said into A) I should buy this projector, or B) I should not buy this projector. :)

No offense Kras. I only wish I had the background to understand you!

jigesh

11-06-06, 12:16 PM

...Could someone please translate what Kras said into A) I should buy this projector, or B) I should not buy this projector...

I, in your position, would not decide buying against PLV-Z5 simply because of the red/orange issue (Of course, finding a tweak for it would be great!). If you see the reviews, they are good; but seems like it will need some tweaking like Z4 did. You need to consider other factors like if SDE would be an issue for your seating distance and if the lument level, screen-size are OK for your setup.

krasmuzik

11-06-06, 12:58 PM

Thank you Krasmuzik. In that case, would entering into the service mode (attachment) and adjusting white balance for individual primary colors (say, red for this case) be helpful in alleviating the push/orangeness in the red?

Also, if one has only one source, say, an HD-DVD player. Would proper color balance and calibration of the source itself would help nullify the color decoder in Sanyo?

No need to since the CMS can fix it on the advanced menu - look at my Z4 calibration review - only green and yellow could not be fixed with it - they are too deep and green is too yellow.

I only see luminance adjustments for Red in that manual. That might help with red push - but orangey reds are fixable in CMS as well as red push.

krasmuzik

11-06-06, 01:02 PM

I, in your position, would not decide buying against PLV-Z5 simply because of the red/orange issue (Of course, finding a tweak for it would be great!). If you see the reviews, they are good; but seems like it will need some tweaking like Z4 did. You need to consider other factors like if SDE would be an issue for your seating distance and if the lument level, screen-size are OK for your setup.

Z4 tweaking thread has been running all year. I have been helping out since I calibrated one recently to try to get people to stop churning numbers and learn how to use test patterns, and when you need someone with gear to fix things vs. someone with AVIA. Of course some have no experience with AVIA - if you cannot fix color/tint yourself - you will never be able to figure out the color decoder.

If you buy the projector and don't calibrate it - you will be living with bright orange reds. It can be fixed. But to buy because a review said it was fixable yet you just live with it - is just as bad as not buying because a review critiqued the calibration - even though it said it could be fixed.

Art in his review recommended hiring a calibrator and at the least getting the AVIA - which for him is unusual - because he thinks most projectors are used with presets and maybe brightness/contrast tuneups only.

MikeSRC

11-06-06, 01:09 PM

The problem is the color decoder of the video is wacky on the Z4 - beyond just bad color/tint presets - which sounds like nothing changed on the Z5. It affects every input just because people wanted color/tint controls on digital inputs. You can fix most of it with the RGB filters and decoder patterns in AVIA if you know what you are doing (or hire someone that does :D). The same CMS can be used to fine tune the color/tint of RGB as well as CMY if you have sensor gear (or hire someone that does :D)

Hi kras,

Thanks for the info on the CMS. I was with Art (presenter) the other night checking out the Z5, but was unaware of the CMS adjustments as this was the first time I've seen a Sanyo. I noted that the Z5 suffered from the same green push that the AE900 does, as well as having "orangey" reds. Secondaries were way off as well. Sounds like there's no difference from the Z4 in that regard.

krasmuzik

11-06-06, 01:10 PM

Krasmuzik

Thanks for the explanations! Trying to get my head around this :D

Quote:
Color Decoding is rarely measured (I do this in my calibration reviews) - but is the brightness of color w.r.t white

So would you be able to correct the color decoder by a use of a cc filter and take out the orange tinge? If you found a perfect filter would that move the red to the proper place on the CIE chart? Would that also correct the secondary color of yellow on the gamut chart?

In the above quote are you referring to color saturation (vibrancy red to gray)?

I could never understand why that would not show up in a grayscale (ie. at a given ire would red not have higher brightness than green and blue?)

How do you correct the red push? Is there a way to do it in a practical pj application without messing up gamma and grayscale?

Any help would lift the fog a little... :eek:

See my recent postings in the Z4 tweak thread for a howto AVIA to fix color decoder with CMS.

You are still mixing concepts - which is OK because even many ISFers do not grasp these differences.

Grayscale is the panel mixture of RGB that maxes the proper white balance. Grayscale is about removing color by balancing RGB. Using the watercolor analogy if grayscale is warm - that means you are painting on pink paper.

Video is the conversion of analog YPbPr or digital YCbCr component video into RGB. What red push means in that the Pb (or Cb) is too high. It is colorizing the B&W excessively with red. To use the water color analogy you have some red paint mixed into your water that is mixing into all the colors.

To provide color and tint controls - even RGB inputs (HDMI, DVI, VGA) are being converted into video YCbCr and back to RGB again - which is how those inputs are picking up the red push.

Grayscale/Gamma panel circuits are independent of video circuits - you can adjust one without affecting the other. Unless the grayscale is correct - the colors will not be correct - but you can still align the video circuit. That is where your red push comes from.

Your orange reds is defined by the LCD RGB filters being used - the native filter is a bit red orange. It is a panel issue - but the trick is to use the CMS to color correct the video by adding crimson to reds - and yes you are correcting the video to correct a panel issue. But since even the RGB is looped back thru the video decoder - it works! The CMS is not a true color decoder or color gamut adjustment - but it will do.

I am not sure a CC filter would work better than a FL-D filter which cuts green and adds red. This is the problem with filter tweaking - those who use them only look at the grayscale impact - they forgot that they add color push in doing so - which could help or hurt. If the projector already has red push adding a red filter might make it worse - as you need to further adjust away the red push. the CMS is limited on adjustment range - and if you find a red push adjustment on the HDDVD let me know - as it is red pushing as well!

I do not like to use the term color saturation - as it has different meanings if describing the gamut or the video. Highly technical answer coming as to why....

I use CIE1976 - color lightness (del L*) is decoder issues as well as RGB filter issues - what in video signal is called color saturation - red push means that red is too bright - not that red is orange or red is pastel. .

The Orange red is a gamut issue - the hue is wrong (del H*) Wrong hue for CMY is either a decoder issue that tint is wrong or a grayscale issue colorizing. Chroma (del C*) is the strength of the color - from pastel to laser like - it includes a bit of del L* - if you take out the del L* then it is called del S* - color saturation - which this time a gamut measure - not a video measure - so I never use that term to avoid confusion.

Very very confusing to wrap your brain around - because indeed some video saturation circuits can affect the chroma in the gamut by making a color more pastel or more vivid just by changing the brightness - but you unbalance the video decoder when you do that. And your eye can easily get fooled! Now you know why manufactuers red push - to fool the eye.

gottahavapj

11-06-06, 01:15 PM

Here is my own personal, laymans opinion from reading AVS threads for years and owning a DLP for 2 1/2 years. Anyone that thinks this projector may be the one for them should try it out in your home, viewing sources and material that they would be using going forward. Everyone's expectations, tolerance of less than perfect black levels, SDE and color accuracy should be put to the test with your own eyes. It is obvious when you have two posters in this same thread that transitioned from a 4805 or H31 to a Z5, one says it was a poor experience and the other says it was a dramatic and excellent upgrade- we have some (understandable) discrepancy here.

I mean absolutely no disrespect to Kras here as he has forgotten more about projector tuning than I could ever hope to know. I just think that what is important to videophiles and calibrators may not be that important to us Joe HT fans. This is not a new concept or discussion in an AVS projector thread but there appear to be some newer readers here that could benefit from this point being re-hashed.

In the end- I feel it really only matters what looks good to your eyes.

krasmuzik

11-06-06, 01:20 PM

Hi kras,

Thanks for the info on the CMS. I was with Art (presenter) the other night checking out the Z5, but was unaware of the CMS adjustments as this was the first time I've seen a Sanyo. I noted that the Z5 suffered from the same green push that the AE900 does, as well as having "orangey" reds. Secondaries were way off as well. Sounds like there's no difference from the Z4 in that regard.

Mike

You can reduce green push using the level adjust - but the phase adjust on green is useless it does not move any. Red push is fixable with level adjust, and the phase adjust does work to make it more crimson. Check out my calibration review - all colors fixed for decoding, only color/hue issue was green too deep towards a yellow that was also too deep. Grayscale calibrated fine.

My first time with a Sanyo as well - but when you put 40hrs into a calibration review - you begin to figure out the tricks :D

noah katz

11-06-06, 01:22 PM

"The screen-door effect or fixed-pattern noise (FPN) ..."

Sheesh, right off the bat they equate two completely different things.

krasmuzik

11-06-06, 01:45 PM

I mean absolutely no disrespect to Kras here as he has forgotten more about projector tuning than I could ever hope to know. I just think that what is important to videophiles and calibrators may not be that important to us Joe HT fans. This is not a new concept or discussion in an AVS projector thread but there appear to be some newer readers here that could benefit from this point being re-hashed.

Everyone that has ever experienced a proper REC709/D65 calibration from me after a couple weeks has no desire to go back to uncalibrated presets. This includes people that says it looks fine to them before. So I feel qualified in speaking for the human eye - uncalibrated looks good to you because that is all you know. Most calibrators also are familiar with these human experiences. Usually the only initial complaint is too dim - but that goes away once people see what they have been missing.

If you don't care about calibration - stick to press release review sites that never discuss anything about the image and use silly subjective terms to make you buy the projector. There are also other HT forums that are called BigBrightPicture rather than AVScience that are more suitable that don't want to hear about calibration. I don't post there.

The bottom line review of the Sanyo is that the grayscale presets are good - the videophile will want to tune them to match his screen. The color decoder though makes greens too bright and yellowish, and reds too bright and orangish, and the secondary tints are all wrong.. If you do not plan to calibrate then expect to live with that when you could have bought something else without color decoder issues.

A reasonable fix with some AVIA RGB filter experience is possible - calibrators are trained on this - and know the differences between what is a panel error vs. a video error and can fix it. More advanced tuning requires the calibration gear to fix. For those willing to try the AVIA I posted how to in the Sanyo Z4 tweak thread.

If one does not want to time&expense a calibration- stick to pre-calibration reviews. The majority of reviewers comments are applying to a calibrated picture however - so you need to discount their image comments as they will not apply to those who do not calibrate.

My calibration reviews are objective measures - and include all the preset modes so you know exactly what a calibration would buy you - how far off the greyscale/gamma is and how far off color gamut/decoder is.

To my wifes own eyes - her LCD TV looks great with all of the calibration/adjustment controls to the right - to maximize her picture. I doubt you would think it is that great and would not enjoy her inflicting that picture on you. Whereas calibrators know that once they 'inflict' a calibrated picture on someone - they actually do enjoy it. So they persist despite those that say ignore the 'picky' calibrators. Without calibrators manufacturers would run amuck tuning displays even worse than they are now - maybe even hiring the wife that likes everything cranked even further to the right. :eek:

krasmuzik

11-06-06, 01:59 PM

Wow. Could someone please translate what Kras said into A) I should buy this projector, or B) I should not buy this projector. :)

No offense Kras. I only wish I had the background to understand you!

If you buy the projector - get it calibrated - as it does calibrate very well. If you don't understand calibrators enough to follow their DIY advice - their services are available for hire. If you don't care - just never invite over an AVS buddy that starts saying what is up with the bright orange reds? :p

tvted

11-06-06, 02:02 PM

Grayscale is the panel mixture of RGB that maxes the proper white balance. Grayscale is about removing color by balancing RGB. Using the watercolor analogy if grayscale is warm - that means you are painting on pink paper.

Video is the conversion of analog YPbPr or digital YCbCr component video into RGB. What red push means in that the Pb (or Cb) is too high. It is colorizing the B&W excessively with red. To use the water color analogy you have some red paint mixed into your water that is mixing into all the colors.

To provide color and tint controls - even RGB inputs (HDMI, DVI, VGA) are being converted into video YCbCr and back to RGB again - which is how those inputs are picking up the red push.

Grayscale/Gamma panel circuits are independent of video circuits - you can adjust one without affecting the other. Unless the grayscale is correct - the colors will not be correct - but you can still align the video circuit. That is where your red push comes from.

Thanks for this krasmuzik.

I've tried to haphazardly explain similar ideas elsewhere hereabouts, derived from my understanding of how broadcast cameras work (the calibration methods are similar). What you have said elegantly in one message will be saved for future reference should I once again foolishly find occasion to discuss such issues with those that are more neophyte with these matters than me.

Thanks once again
ted

krasmuzik

11-06-06, 02:11 PM

tvted

Extremely difficult concepts to explain because the languages of color scientists and video engineers and display manufacturers have English commonality - but they work in different domains and use the same words to mean different things. Poynton seems to be the best reference at getting these concepts separated using different words.

Keep in mind my posts are copyright - so if you try to explain it yourself - use your own words! I am not even sure my words make sense to me sometimes anyways - again because the English for it is poorly defined. Throw in dyslexic typing that spell check does not catch....like saying Pb when I meant Pr! But too late to fix because you already quoted it....

MikeSRC

11-06-06, 03:02 PM

My first time with a Sanyo as well - but when you put 40hrs into a calibration review - you begin to figure out the tricks :D

LOL. I guess the hour-and-a-half I spent with it doesn't cut it. :D

Anyway, I believe it's gone back to Sanyo now. It did have good greyscale right out of the box and if I recall correctly, blue and cyan were pretty good. I'll definitely check out your calibration review for future reference. Thanks.

krasmuzik

11-06-06, 03:30 PM

LOL. I guess the hour-and-a-half I spent with it doesn't cut it. :D

Anyway, I believe it's gone back to Sanyo now. It did have good greyscale right out of the box and if I recall correctly, blue and cyan were pretty good. I'll definitely check out your calibration review for future reference. Thanks.

That is an improvement - the default tint was horribly wrong on the Z4! Had to laugh as I just got the new ISF/Monster DVD AVS is donating proceeds to ELF - and they said no need to worry about tint since component video gets it right. They did not even have a pattern for it - most likely because it requires a spendy blue filter eating into Monsters profits - not because it is never wrong!

KeithfromCanada

11-06-06, 03:41 PM

If you buy the projector - get it calibrated - as it does calibrate very well. If you don't understand calibrators enough to follow their DIY advice - their services are available for hire. If you don't care - just never invite over an AVS buddy that starts saying what is up with the bright orange reds? :p

Kras -- I've been reading your posts (including the one to me) and this response is what I, and others have been waiting for...short, simple, to the point and in terms that I can understand. I mentioned before that I will be getting whatever PJ I choose calibrated and in one sentence you gave me the answer that I wanted to hear...this PJ calibrates very well...perfect!

krasmuzik

11-06-06, 04:13 PM

Maybe I need to add summary score to my calibration reviews - it is on the charts and with the text is the interpretation of the charts - and then I summarize them using the grading ranks as a guideline. I tried to make a real effort to keep raw numbers out of the text - they are on the charts if people want that detail.

After calibration only the yellow/green could not be perfected - everything else was. Very few projectors achieve perfection - it is important to learn what compromises are made and why - and which ones really need calibration and which ones do not.

It is common for Japanese made display to have screwed up color decoders - they do it on purpose because their TV standard is 9300K and that is what they optomize for - including screwing up D65 video with red push so faces look OK on these TV's. But that screws up all the other colors when you watch D65 video - so you have to recalibrate to D65 and things like red push are then apparent.

Lucikly marketing added CMS as a marketing gimmick that is becoming more common (look Ma - I can change the colors in my videos) - but it turns out to be just functional enough to fix a lot of the decoder and some of the gamut errors.

I have not done the Z5 I did the Z4 and assuming it is same. I don't charge for calibration as part of my free reviews if nothing needed to be done - anyone want to take that bet? Downside if something needs to get fixed - I get paid :D

MikeSRC

11-06-06, 04:14 PM

That is an improvement - the default tint was horribly wrong on the Z4!

Now that you mention it, it was on the Z5 as well. Blue and cyan were the only colors that were close to the target points, but I forgot that those measurements were after color and tint adjustment, which were both way off.

krasmuzik

11-06-06, 04:19 PM

Now that you mention it, it was on the Z5 as well. Blue and cyan were the only colors that were close to the target points, but I forgot that those measurements were after color and tint adjustment, which were both way off.

Sounds like same color decoder and CMS then. Always fun when you get perfect grayscale and color decoding - and you look thru the blue filter and it all blends together - no difference in the squares shading at all!.

Super Chicken

11-06-06, 05:10 PM

Hi folks,

Not to derail the very useful calibration thread, but:

I have a Z5 on order. Will it highlight the infamous macroblock enhancement issue on, for instance, DCDi-equipped DVD players?

If so, would proper calibration of the Z5 eliminate this effect?

I know there are generic answers to these questions, and I've done my research on the DVD players themselves, but I haven't seen anyone specifically mention the Z5 in this regard. My concern is that I don't want to arrange for shipping, etc, for an Oppo DVD player if I'm going to need to incur further expenses in sending it back.

Many thanks in advance!

Tom

Klok

11-06-06, 07:38 PM

Kras

If Joe Customer decides that his Z5 needs immediate calibration, would a 100 to 200 hour burn in be necessary? If he wanted the calibration done in ...oh, I dont know, say Vancouver... could the unit just be sent there new in an unopened box? I know that values would change as the lamp burned in, but would those changes be significant? Joe would like to know that once he installed the pj it would be there to stay (barring some sort of failure).

krasmuzik

11-06-06, 07:47 PM

I recommend 50-100 hours burn-in. Lamps have exponential decay and lose their red the fastest - that burn-in gets you over the hump into the tail of the exponential decay where it will not change much over lamp life. With a critical eye you actually sense that happening as your new lamp settles in you notice it seems not as bright and reds not as glowing (you still will have red push video after burn-in!)

No doubt if I would be busier if I took drop-ships - but the calibration would change after the burn-in - and what if I got a lemon? That does happen - check out the Z4 tweak thread for recent shots of someone with a lemon panel - I told them to go buy DisplayMate so they have solid pattern proof for a swap. Of course my burn-in comments apply only to grayscale - decoder issues don't change with burn-in - red pushed video is still red pushed video. I know some resellers that calibrate would charge a bit more to tweak and check - not as much as mail-in because of the drift issue - more to overcome the marketing screwups - which is way way worse than any lamp drift. The calibrator in me is bothered by that because should I then offer a free return if they drift - yet the customer has to reship and do without? So if they have to do that anyways in the end - why not just burn-it in first?

Now maybe I should start a burn-in service - a new projector in every room under "review" for a whole weeks worth of TV and gaming :D Extra charge for that :D Maybe get the local dealers involved - watch a $100K Runco VX5 one week save them the work of troubleshooting any OOTB install issues :D

Of course if one wants same day calibration service - that is what ISF in-home is for - and you pay more for not having to take your PJ down - not having to doublecheck with AVIA. You will probably have to wait for a good ISF to tour thru and split the travel fees -Most traveling ISF will not do mail-in though - because they need to be on the road doing those tours. And your local ISF may just be a store that took the seminar so they could get the logo. I don't like to travel so mail-in works for me. It may not work for everyone. Some may want to take a crack at cheaper DIY gear and give F&F a shot to practice up so they too can be an ISF calibrator (not any cheaper that way - you just end up buying spendier projectors and spendier calibration gear)

gottahavapj

11-06-06, 08:02 PM

Best be careful there Chief. We're approaching the forbidden "marketing" topic on AVS, and lord knows that never happens with anyone else :D

Just kidding... If I do settle in on a Z5 which I'm not convinced is my path just yet- I'll be tempted to send it west for a little massaging. :)

krasmuzik

11-06-06, 08:06 PM

All of the above is hypothetical if someone was to offer such a service - of course:D

jigesh

11-06-06, 08:33 PM

projector dot com seems to have a good deal currently on Z5 including free 3-year bulb warranty, Sanyo's rebate and free shipping. No experience of buying from them though.

seplant

11-08-06, 02:22 PM

I just purchased a Z5 to replace my dead Sony HS10. I'm projecting on a 110" screen in a totally light-controlled room. Out of the box, the Z5 can't compare with my tweaked HS10, expecially on hi-def material. The Z5 image looks very "digitized" and the colors do not look natural in any of the preset picture settings. Also, there may be a color uniformity problem. When displaying a solid white image, both sides of the image have a reddish tint, but the center looks white. My HS10 had a very film-like image - very smooth yet very detailed with perfect color uniformity (to the naked eye, not measured). I also don't see an improvement in shadow detail, which is a real surprise. I would think a newer 720p machine with a dual iris setup would be able to blow away a 4-year old projector.

I would appreciate if anyone with a Z5 who is pleased with its performance would post their settings (which preset selected, iris settings, gamma, etc.) This thing has an increadible number of adjustments that can be made, and it might be possible to get close to what I am used to watching, but I'm going to need some help!

krasmuzik

11-08-06, 02:36 PM

First go buy DisplayMate for all the testpatterns you could ever want to snap pics of the panel to prove to your display vendor that yours merits a swap for a lemon panel. They have tests specifically for finding panel defects.

Next go get AVIA DVD - this will allow you to adjust the color/tint as well as the ColorManagement system - no ones settings will work for you on that - other than to make it possibly worse for your sources. In fact the only way to make the CMS work is to have the testpattern DVD because it requires frame grabbing the video.

It is the very flexibility of the Sanyo that makes it complicated to setup as many of the settings interact with each other - and all posting setting does is cause everyone to churn for a whole year trying out other settings as they will never look right (or they think they do until next week someone else posts different settings)

When all they need to do is stop that - and learn how to use their test pattern DVDs (or hire someone that knows how). Near the end of the Z4 tweak thread I posted how to use the test pattern DVDs - the Z5 is much the same.

If you check out my calibration review of the Z4 (similar to the Z5) you can see what happens as you vary the modes, gamma, iris and lamp controls. These are all accuracy vs. brightness vs. contrast tradeoffs. Find the setting you prefer for your setup (ignoring accuracy - focus on contrast/brightness)- then have a go with the AVIA DVD to fix the accuracy.

jkirk

11-08-06, 05:49 PM

Buy DisplayMate at $495?! Maybe I missed something on their website, but that's the list price shown.

krasmuzik

11-08-06, 06:02 PM

"DisplayMate for Windows-Internet Video Edition"
Video utility for tuning & testing displays.
$89.00

Or spend $20 less for the version missing some video patterns. They used to have an ISF version but I guess they are not copromotion on it anymore - I think this version here is same as the one I have.

Cheaper than a restock fee if your vendors claim it is not a defective panel! Best be forearmed with photo pattern proof!

3Aims

11-08-06, 09:37 PM

Well, my Z5 showed up today. I played around with it for about three hours, one of which while watching LOST. Having tried out the HD6800 and HC3000, the Z5 is an interesting animal. I will post my details later. One quick note, SDE is not a factor at all.

emptychair

11-08-06, 09:53 PM

Well, my Z5 showed up today. I played around with it for about three hours, one of which while watching LOST. Having tried out the HD6800 and HC3100, the Z5 is an interesting animal. I will post my details later. One quick note, SDE is not a factor at all.

Curious to hear what you have to say. The HC3100 by all accounts should have the best picture but things don't always play out that way...

BRI59

11-09-06, 06:51 AM

...I will post my details later. One quick note, SDE is not a factor at all.

Looking forward to your comments and thanks for the initial positive heads up.

3Aims

11-09-06, 08:32 AM

Ok. Here are my first impressions:

- The lens shift is nice. After trying the HC3000 and HD72, I never knew what it was like to have flexibility. My Z5 is table mounted 12 feet from the wall. I sit about three feet behind the projector. No screen yet.

- Lots of settings. I have to imagine I can get a much better picture after a little tweaking.

- The Z5 is almost silent in low power mode. In high power mode, the unit increases to a decent level. Probably the same as the HC3000 in high power mode, but with no whine. I used Auto 1 lamp mode which floated between low and high. Nice feature.

- I flipped between Creative Cinema and Living for a few hours. The Creative Cinema had better blacks at the expense of color. The Living mode was just the opposite. Both settings produced enough light for a bright 96-100 inch screen. Compared to the HC3000, it had the best of both worlds. Excellent color and excellent blacks. However, the shadow detail on the HC3000 does not come close to the Z5.

- No SDE at all. I am about 1.6x away from the screen (14ish feet distance, 100 inch screen). When I expanded the screen to the maximum (120 inches), SDE was still not a problem with a 1.4x distance. You have to get really close, about 7-8 feet to see any SDE.

- Video noise. Almost none. Compared to the HC3000 and HD72, the Z5 does a great job in this aspect. I watched some football games (recorded HD) and the grass did not break up like it did with the other DLP units.

- My only real complaint is what I will call "grain" with dark scenes. It is not a deal killer, but this unit does struggle a bit with blacks. The detail is great, but there were a few times when I did notice that the unit could not deliver smooth dark screen shots.

- The remote is small, but effective. It lights up and the buttons are easy to push/reach.

- Overall, I am somewhat torn. The HC3000 throws up a better picture, no question. However, the lack of a lens shift and detail with blacks are negatives with the HC3000. Plus, I am really sensitive to certain noises and the two DLPs I tried both had a whine (I guess from the color wheel). The noise is a deal killer for me which is why I tried out the Z5. The Z5 is a quieter projector and has a ton of flexibility, but does not have the color and black support of the DLP models. Life is about tradeoffs, so I will keep the Z5 as I can live with its shortfalls. I will probably do a mail in calibration with someone on this forum to get the most out of it.

*** One more thing. I really like the three year warranty and LCD panel cleaning tool.

hauer

11-09-06, 10:07 AM

3Aims

11-09-06, 10:16 AM

40xbr700_Owner, thanks for posting your impressions. I'm about ready to purchase a Z5 so I'm curious to hear more. After reading countless postings one item I will also purchase is the <$40 Avia Home Theater DVD. It's clear until the Z5 is cal'd the color will not be optimum. When you mention a mail in calibrator I'm confused? Can you be clearer. And as for screens which one have you chosen. When comparing the HC 3100 with the Z5 you seem fairly happy with the Z5. If the color tweaking is done, it should be a fine unit. Do you agree?

I have Avia and Video Essentials. Either will work. You can mail your projector to certain people to calibrate it better (versus a full calibration in house). I will probably go with a 100inch or so High Power or Carada BW screen. Not sure which. Overall, I am happy with the Z5. It is a great value for the price (after rebate) and puts up a solid picture. I did very little tweaking last night and thought the picture looked very good straight out of the box in the two modes I mentioned above. Plus, the three year warranty is great. Most of the comps (HC3000, Panny, etc) offer a one or two year warranty.

hauer

11-09-06, 11:20 AM

Wasn't aware a projector can be mailed away for caling. Thanks. What about burn-in time on the bulb and how much time. And shouldn't for the average user like myself be satisfied caling this beast @ home. As for screens many seem to pick the High Power material. Yet when I recently talked with Dalite and a few other screen dealers they recommended the HCMW for my application. Which is a livingroom not well light controlled. My plan, wall mounting the Z5, 14ft throw with similar seating distance. 106" diagonal Model C pull down manual screen. Upconverting standard DVD's with an eventual HD player. And cable TV viewing upgrading to HD.

gottahavapj

11-09-06, 11:51 AM

You shouldn't really discuss the mail in calibration specifics openly in the forum as you have the potential of getting the calibrator in hot water with the mods. I'm sure XBR could let you know via PM of someone who performs this service and posts often in this and other threads. I would consider such a step as well if I wasn't satisfied with the results of a quick Avia or DVE session.

Good reviews of the Z5 gents- keep 'em coming. :)

cappra

11-09-06, 12:34 PM

Don't send your unit in for a calibration until you have around 100 hours on the lamp. Lamp needs time to settle in as it will change the calibration with time.

merrymaid520

11-09-06, 12:48 PM

Those of you who have experience with the DVE & Avia callib. discs, is it possible to rent them from blockbuster and callibrate the Z5 then? I have watched about 3-4 movies including HD-DVD on my new Z5 and I love it! I think the pic looks darn good in the creative cinema mode, but I have yet to tweak it much further. Looking for any suggestions.

Thank you,

Brandon

krasmuzik

11-09-06, 01:32 PM

Generally the rental places do not include the RGB filters you need to use CMS.

3Aims

11-09-06, 01:41 PM

Don't send your unit in for a calibration until you have around 100 hours on the lamp. Lamp needs time to settle in as it will change the calibration with time.

That's what I hear. I will probably wait until 100 hours, which will take me about 1 month. I may have someone do it local and pay a few more bucks, but it's hard to find people you can trust.

3Aims

11-09-06, 01:43 PM

AlexBPM

11-09-06, 01:43 PM

Ok. Here are my first impressions:

- The lens shift is nice. After trying the HC3100 and HD72, I never knew what it was like to have flexibility. My Z5 is table mounted 12 feet from the wall. I sit about three feet behind the projector. No screen yet.

- Lots of settings. I have to imagine I can get a much better picture after a little tweaking.

- The Z5 is almost silent in low power mode. In high power mode, the unit increases to a decent level. Probably the same as the HC3100 in high power mode, but with no whine. I used Auto 1 lamp mode which floated between low and high. Nice feature.

- I flipped between Creative Cinema and Living for a few hours. The Creative Cinema had better blacks at the expense of color. The Living mode was just the opposite. Both settings produced enough light for a bright 96-100 inch screen. Compared to the HC3100, it had the best of both worlds. Excellent color and excellent blacks. However, the shadow detail on the HC3100 does not come close to the Z5.

- No SDE at all. I am about 1.6x away from the screen (14ish feet distance, 100 inch screen). When I expanded the screen to the maximum (120 inches), SDE was still not a problem with a 1.4x distance. You have to get really close, about 7-8 feet to see any SDE.

- Video noise. Almost none. Compared to the HC3100 and HD72, the Z5 does a great job in this aspect. I watched some football games (recorded HD) and the grass did not break up like it did with the other DLP units.

- My only real complaint is what I will call "grain" with dark scenes. It is not a deal killer, but this unit does struggle a bit with blacks. The detail is great, but there were a few times when I did notice that the unit could not deliver smooth dark screen shots.

- The remote is small, but effective. It lights up and the buttons are easy to push/reach.

- Overall, I am somewhat torn. The HC3100 throws up a better picture, no question. However, the lack of a lens shift and detail with blacks are negatives with the HC3100. Plus, I am really sensitive to certain noises and the two DLPs I tried both had a whine (I guess from the color wheel). The noise is a deal killer for me which is why I tried out the Z5. The Z5 is a quieter projector and has a ton of flexibility, but does not have the color and black support of the DLP models. Life is about tradeoffs, so I will keep the Z5 as I can live with its shortfalls. I will probably do a mail in calibration with someone on this forum to get the most out of it.

*** One more thing. I really like the three year warranty and LCD panel cleaning tool.

40xbr700_Owner,
Your impressions are greatly appreciated. I have spent the last few weeks torn between the HC3100 and the Z5, and have found no comparisons between the two until reading your post. So while trying to contain my enthusiasm, can you give bit more detail in your comparisons? :)

So your initial impressions is that the HC3100 generally throws a much better image than the Z5. So you're saying the HC3100 produces considerably deeper blacks than the Z5, but at the expense of shadow detail correct?

1st) Would you say the HC3100 is much better at producing blacks over the Z5 or only marginally better?

2nd) How bad is the overall noise in the picture compared to the HC3100? DLP units are obviously worse in this regard

3rd) Do you notice the auto iris doing it's thing in the Z5? Some find the change in brightness/black level distracting.

4th) You mentioned noticing some "grain" in dark scenes with the Z5, did you find that to be true on all sources or was could it be source material specific? I assume the HC3100 doesn't produce this grain in dark scenes either correct?

5th) And I'd like to direct this question at everyone. I plan on using the projector primarily for viewing HD (Lost is a perfect example). But I also play a lot of games on my Xbox 360, most of which are dark and require a display that can handle dark scenes well. So I don't know if I should be looking at a unit that produces deeper blacks overall, or a unit that produces the best shadow detail. Any feedback in this regard would be appreciated.

Again, than you for posting your impressions on these new units. Your input is tremendously appreciated!

3Aims

11-09-06, 02:28 PM

So your initial impressions is that the HC3000 generally throws a much better image than the Z5. So you're saying the HC3000 produces considerably deeper blacks than the Z5, but at the expense of shadow detail correct?

Yes. However, the HC3000 does not show very good detail. In fact, I would liken it to using a component cable to send a 480i signal from a STB to a tv. Almost like the blacks are too dark and oversaturating. The Z5 shows great detail, but can't come close on the HC3000 black level. Personally, I like the detail over the black. Ideally, you could have both with a more expensive model.

1st) Would you say the HC3000 is much better at producing blacks over the Z5 or only marginally better?

Much better. On just black level alone (no credit for detail), HC3000 is a 9. Z5 is a 6.

2nd) How bad is the overall noise in the picture compared to the HC3000? DLP units are obviously worse in this regard

The Z5 is much better. I'd give the Z5 a 9 and the HC3000 a 7. The HC3000 really struggled with grass for football and baseball games (when zoomed out)

3rd) Do you notice the auto iris doing it's thing in the Z5? Some find the change in brightness/black level distracting.

I used the manual iris setting and left the lamp mode in Auto 1. You can see it working here and there but it is not a distraction.

4th) You mentioned noticing some "grain" in dark scenes with the Z5, did you find that to be true on all sources or was could it be source material specific? I assume the HC3000 doesn't produce this grain in dark scenes either correct?

No grain at all with the HC3000, but that's becuase all it shows is black. The Z5 showed some grain with HD and DVD material. I think part of my grain was due to the lack of calibrated settings and my preference to throw a brighter picture. I view the grain as a trade off for detail. It's a fair trade in my opinion.

5th) And I'd like to direct this question at everyone. I plan on using the projector primarily for viewing HD (Lost is a perfect example). But I also play a lot of games on my Xbox 360, most of which are dark and require a display that can handle dark scenes well. So I don't know if I should be looking at a unit that produces deeper blacks overall, or a unit that produces the best shadow detail. Any feedback in this regard would be appreciated.

Lost looked awesome last night. I mean really good, so don't let my nits on the dark scenes scare you off. Again, no SDE at all from my distance. The projector takes about 20 seconds to warm up. After that, it is super quiet.

gwlaw99

11-09-06, 02:34 PM

hauer

11-09-06, 02:45 PM

The 3100 appears to be superior, more expensive then the Z5. Not a fair comparision yet a good one. krasmuzik replied regarding the Avia rental situation. He speaks, I listen and always re-read carefully. Netflix has the disc for rental but the waiting time is geological. $40 gives almost piece of mind, the purchase is a no brainer. The Z5 needs color calibration. krasmuzik has other postings we the flock should read.

AlexBPM

11-09-06, 04:02 PM

So your initial impressions is that the HC3100 generally throws a much better image than the Z5. So you're saying the HC3100 produces considerably deeper blacks than the Z5, but at the expense of shadow detail correct?

Yes. However, the HC3100 does not show very good detail. In fact, I would liken it to using a component cable to send a 480i signal from a STB to a tv. Almost like the blacks are too dark and oversaturating. The Z5 shows great detail, but can't come close on the HC3100 black level. Personally, I like the detail over the black. Ideally, you could have both with a more expensive model.

1st) Would you say the HC3100 is much better at producing blacks over the Z5 or only marginally better?

Much better. On just black level alone (no credit for detail), HC3100 is a 9. Z5 is a 6.

2nd) How bad is the overall noise in the picture compared to the HC3100? DLP units are obviously worse in this regard

The Z5 is much better. I'd give the Z5 a 9 and the HC3100 a 7. The HC3100 really struggled with grass for football and baseball games (when zoomed out)

3rd) Do you notice the auto iris doing it's thing in the Z5? Some find the change in brightness/black level distracting.

I used the manual iris setting and left the lamp mode in Auto 1. You can see it working here and there but it is not a distraction.

4th) You mentioned noticing some "grain" in dark scenes with the Z5, did you find that to be true on all sources or was could it be source material specific? I assume the HC3100 doesn't produce this grain in dark scenes either correct?

No grain at all with the HC3100, but that's becuase all it shows is black. The Z5 showed some grain with HD and DVD material. I think part of my grain was due to the lack of calibrated settings and my preference to throw a brighter picture. I view the grain as a trade off for detail. It's a fair trade in my opinion.

5th) And I'd like to direct this question at everyone. I plan on using the projector primarily for viewing HD (Lost is a perfect example). But I also play a lot of games on my Xbox 360, most of which are dark and require a display that can handle dark scenes well. So I don't know if I should be looking at a unit that produces deeper blacks overall, or a unit that produces the best shadow detail. Any feedback in this regard would be appreciated.

Lost looked awesome last night. I mean really good, so don't let my nits on the dark scenes scare you off. Again, no SDE at all from my distance. The projector takes about 20 seconds to warm up. After that, it is super quiet.

Well I guess it comes down to selecting the projector who's trade-offs you can live with. It's really a shame we still can't have the best of both worlds at such a desirable price point. I knew the HC3100 would be a pitch black monster, but the lack of shadow detail and overall detail/sharpness in comparison to the Z5 is discouraging. Although in fairness, the Z5 great strength is it's sharpness and detail. Thanks for the excellent and extremely thorough feedback 40xbr700owner. You really helped shed some light with these units.

Having said that, perhaps if the Z5 was mated with the correct color filter, contrast would be greatly improved without sacrificing much shadow detail. Then we could have the best of both worlds! Any suggestions anyone? Z5 tweakers thread anyone? :)

3Aims

11-09-06, 04:11 PM

Sorry for the confusion, but I was comparing the Z5 to the HC3000, not the HC3100. Not sure what I was thinking. I edited my posts for future readers.

merrymaid520

11-09-06, 04:27 PM

Thanks guys for the replies. I will probably wait for the new HD-DVD DVE disc.

Hopefully a Z5 tweak thread shows up soon for us owners like myself that know less about pj's & calibrating.

Brandon

3Aims

11-09-06, 07:23 PM

A small emotional post here, but I have another 2-3 three hours under my belt with the Z5 and I am totally pleased with it. My journey to find a projector that fits my needs is over.........until something better comes out. So I figure I have about one year.

Zipplemeyer

11-09-06, 07:42 PM

I'm waiting to here a report from a Z5 owner who slaps a color correcting filter onto one of the brighter modes like Vivid or Dynamic. If either of those modes has a half decent gamma curve then it could make for a very high contrast setting. The only way I could justify buying a projector with such low lumen output would be if that output had a high contrast ratio to compensate.

Moe

seplant

11-09-06, 08:32 PM

Just finished calibrating my Z5 using Avia. HUGE difference (thanks, Kras)!!! Started with Creative Cinema mode. I thought the picture looked rather dull in this mode when I started, but after doing the basic Avia calibrations (white level, black level, color, tint), the image is bright and colorful. Still need some tweaking on the flesh tones, but wow, is it better!

Kras - how about some advice on how to adjust some of the settings under the Advanced Menu (Gain R/G/B, Offset R/G/B, Gamma R/G/B)? ;) I've got a light meter and color filters at my disposal if that helps.

cappra

11-09-06, 09:18 PM

Use the colour management adjustments in the advanced menu, it works great on dialing in the flesh tones. Very easy to use.

krasmuzik

11-10-06, 12:30 AM

Zipplemeyer - the FL-D filters are a 50% brightness cut - likely it would still be the brightest mode - but the FL-D was not enough to get it in calibration range. Service menu tweaks or stronger red filter is required (which are even stronger brightness cuts).

You may find this Z4 post on how to turn down Power mode and throw on some dynamic features for some serious black levels without using lens filters. Same as the KMR4 mode in my review - but the dynamic features get really wacky when you stop down the lens iris. It exceeds marketed contrast - and after watching it a while you will see why marketing neglected to push things that far. It will have you asking if the projector is still on during Finding Nemo!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8765264&&#post8765264

seplant

For those wanting to give AVIA a GO before they try a PRO ...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8783409&&#post8783409

are you saying you have the old Smart III calibration system?

seplant

11-10-06, 06:17 AM

are you saying you have the old Smart III calibration system?

Yep, I used Smart III to calibrate my HS10. Made a world of difference!

merrymaid520

11-10-06, 10:47 AM

Kras,

When using AVia or DVE to calibrate, is there a specific setting to start out on such as (creative cinema or living & etc) or do those not matter because I would be changing the settings manually during calibration? I really have no idea what the Iris settings & etc even do? I am only used to changing color, sharpness, contrast, & etc on normal TV's. I am looking for the best pic with as as much brightness as I can get out of my Z5. The room is light controlled, but having some wall sconces on during a football game is convenient.

As soon as I can buy the newer DVE HD DVD I will ,but until then I can try some basic calibrations based on other's experiences.

Thanks so much,

Brandon

krasmuzik

11-10-06, 12:16 PM

merrymaid

Yes I would recommend picking the mode that works for you as there is a good set of choices - the optics settings interact so probably better to pick the combo you like instead of tweaking them. In my Z4 review on my website you can see in detail what they do. Just save your modificatons to a user memory and you have four of those - so you can save different ones for different viewing conditions. Remember when you switch back to preset modes you will lose your AVIA adjustments, so write them down and reenter and doublecheck.

With lights on you probably want to use one of the brighter modes and live with the bluish image - though it can change team colors a bit. At least run the AVIA and call it good enough.

krasmuzik

11-10-06, 12:19 PM

Yep, I used Smart III to calibrate my HS10. Made a world of difference!

Yes D65 calibration makes a difference - subtle at first until you switch back to defaults weeks later then you go WOW!

Realize though SmartIII is no longer supported/sold - not sure if the projector specific versions it had will work OK on new stuff. Check the display calibration forum if you want ideas on what spreadsheet calibration tools to move on to - dunno if they support the older filtered lightmeter way - but never hurts to ask what your other options are.

merrymaid520

11-10-06, 12:46 PM

Kras,

Thanks again. I will play with it more tonight. I will read your Z4 review and hope to gain some more info.

Take care,

Brandon

3Aims

11-11-06, 05:37 PM

Yes D65 calibration makes a difference - subtle at first until you switch back to defaults weeks later then you go WOW!

Realize though SmartIII is no longer supported/sold - not sure if the projector specific versions it had will work OK on new stuff. Check the display calibration forum if you want ideas on what spreadsheet calibration tools to move on to - dunno if they support the older filtered lightmeter way - but never hurts to ask what your other options are.

Using one of the Cinema modes, how close is this unit to D65 out of the box?

krasmuzik

11-11-06, 06:43 PM

Using one of the Cinema modes, how close is this unit to D65 out of the box?

Have not reviewed the Z5 - I only review what I calibrate - the Z4 D65 measures are in my review. Even though grayscale is excellent in cinema modes - any amount of grayscale being off causes secondary colors to be further off - as well as screens can help or hurt depending on presets used with which screen. I show this in the ColorTemp chart which are offsets from the D65. Combine that with the color decoder being off requiring AVIA tuning on top of the grayscale affecting secondaries - the larger problem is color.

3Aims

11-11-06, 08:27 PM

bmxsummoner

11-12-06, 04:41 AM

Crap. I watched my first full DVD tonight. It was a widescreen movie with bars on the top and bottom. I noticed that the bottom right corner and top left corner are dark blueish and not black. If you look at the bar on the bottom, it's black about 2/3rds of the way going from left to right, then it turns blueish in the corner. Same pattern up top but the blue tint is on the top left. The blue only shows up when the projector is showing black in the two mentioned corners. What could be causing this?

Mine exhibits similar problems too. Corners have a hint of blue (though it is more apparent on bright scenes than dark) and 3/5ths to the right,t htere's a hint of green. A white cloud would, although white in the middle, get a slight blue tint in the edges. I've already emailed my vendor at the weekend too for I have some misconvergence of blue as well. Hope I get a replacement. Any info will be greatly appreciated.

jigesh

11-12-06, 07:05 AM

Got Z5 yesterday, also got 3-year bulb warranty for mental peace (no experience if it will really work when I will need it; but will see) and one additional year (a total of four years) of projector warranty thanks to the American Express purchase. If interested in vendor, price, etc.; PM me - the vendor is well-known and is one of the forum sponsors; and the price is also similar to what you see elsewhere.

So far I have spent around four hours viewing only the SD-DVDs. I know it's too early to call but no harm in conveying initial impressions for the fence-sitters. This is the first projector I have ever owned (but have seen several DLPs in show-rooms) - so can not make any comparison with other models. I will use it with Toshiba HD-A2 when it arrives next week. No screen yet, want Carada 92" BW. Currently projecting on a light biege apartment-wall. Projection size is 96-inch and the seating distance is 11.5-feet. The projector is shelf-mounted around 12-feet from the projection, HDMI cable is 15-feet Monoprice, DVD player is Panasonic S97 set to 780p.

Did not want to spend more than 1.5K (which Z5 will be after rebate), have light-controlled room, wanted a better warranty with no intial quality control surprises, noticed that Z2 owners are still happy with it after three years of using it, the bulb normally lasts well, motorized door, enormous tweakability and plenty of Z4 tweaks available for reference, sharp picture, and ease of cleaning when needed were amongst the main considerations why I chose Z5.

I have few calibration discs/tools, but will calibrate after I buy the screen and after the HD-DVD player is in place. So as you can see, these are initial impressions only - so take them for what they are worth. I am not a hard-core videophile and not an average Joe either; and at times, tend to be perfectionist if the tweaking of the equipment settings allows me to be without losing patience.

Currently I am using it in "Creative Cinema" mode. No other major change in factory settings as far as I can remember.

SDE? None to my eyes and seating distance. If I move closer to the projecton to see it, I would see it.

Reds? Haven't run the color bar, just based on the known test scenes on pre-viewed DVDs, they look fine to me. No orange-hint. No problem with other colors that cought my eyes. Doesn't mean it's all perfect, just that it didn't catch my attention.

Blacks? Looked good to me (I come from plasma), not dark grey or other variants; obviously not as good as CRT. The shadow details, too, looked fine to me while watching Cinderella Man.

Brightness? Mine is a totally dark room. The "Pure Cinema" mode was less lively and for "Creative Cinema," and higher, the brightness is really good even when I switch on few corner bulbs in the room. I will be using it for movies only in a dark room, so to me the brightness relatively is as good as bigger plasma. A bit of hyperbole? May be, but not too far-fetched.

Any Complaints? I noticed around half-inch diameter reddish blob towards the left hand bottom of the projection. Not good for an out-of-box, never used projctor. What fixed it? Very simple. Go to the Setting-->Cleaning menu, open one screw at the bottom to access R, G and B panel cleaning holes, blow the R-panel holes (because the blob was reddish) with what Sanyo calls a "hurricane" blower that comes with it; and voila! no more reddish (or any other colored) blobs. Very easy to clean/maintain. Impressed!

Miscellaneous: No irregularity in colors/shades/tints observed anywhere on the projection corner-to-corner during white or dark scenes. This obervation doesn't deserve any merit because I have projection on a non-white wall, with no screen. Haven't seen any mis-convergence based on how texts (sub-titles, menu items) looked. Overall, I am very happy (knock wood, as I become very suspicious and superstitious when things turn out very well out of the box in this HT hobby) and would recommend Sanyo PLV-Z5 with no hesitation, atleast to those who have similar need, setup and usage like mine. To tell you the truth, it looks so good on the wall, that I now am in not as much hurry to rush for the screen as I was earlier; but will buy it anyway as soon as wife's expense-shock waves die down. Will calibrate after the screen and HD-DVD player are in place. My past experience with calibrating plasma (video calibration) and speakers (audio-calibration) tells me calibrating this PJ should overall make it more enjoyable and closer to where it should be. And if I notice any discrepancies, will update this forum.

Good luck with your projector hunt!

EDIT:- By the way, Z5 is Made in Japan if it matters to anyone.

Montezuma58

11-12-06, 07:56 AM

I'm considering this projector. I would like to ceiling mount it. But this would put it close to the extreme of vertical lens shift. I'm thinking about either 92" or 96" screen with a projection distance of about 11.5'. Does anybody have any comments on distortion when near the extremes of the lens shift?

jigesh

11-12-06, 08:07 AM

..Does anybody have any comments on distortion when near the extremes of the lens shift?

I am using maximum horizontal shift towards right; and a little vertical (upward) shift. I don't see any distortion. I don't have any need for using keystone settings though if that's what you meant.

Montezuma58

11-12-06, 08:15 AM

I won't be using any keystone correction.

merrymaid520

11-12-06, 08:46 AM

Jigesh,

Your setup is very similar to mine. I have the Z5 projecting onto a Carada 92"BW running thru my Toshiba XA1 HD DVD player with HDMI and love the pic it throws. I have it ceiling mounted about 12' away. I sit any where from 9.5ft to 13 ft back from the screen. Only when sitting in the front row at 9.5ft is there a small chance I pick up some SDE but not very noticable. The room is completely dark and HD DVD's look awesome on it. SD DVD's look darn good also, but standard def Directv looks pretty bad.(darn compression). My initial calibrations have been limited to setting the proper contrast, brightness, and sharpness with AVIA in several different video modes for different viewing material. When the HD DVD of DVE is out, I will calibrate the color settings using the filters that come with it. This may be my first pj but I thought the colors in creative cinema mode looked very good OOTB with only some minor eyeball tweaking. The blacks looked great when watching corpse bride last night in HD.

Overall, I think I made the right purchase and with a light controlled room, you don't need tons of lumen output. The Z5 has good blacks, detail, and minimal SDE if sitting back more than around 10ft.

I think all pj's in this price range have some pro's or cons and everyone needs to chose the lesser of two evils.

Brandon

cc2

11-12-06, 08:54 AM

Hi,

Is anyone planning to calibrate with other tools than Avia? Done it yesterday and aside from the brightness and contrast, I didn’t change anything from the creative cinema setting (aside for low lamp, auto 1 and lens iris at -33, sharpness to -7). I tried what krasmuzik suggested, i.e playing with the CMS, but to my eyes it I didn’t need to change something. I’m sure some will suggest other initial setting to start with. I’m using an old Momitsu v880 via DVI / HDMI and projecting on a Goo screen (lite gray).

CC2

Thus, I agree with Brandon

jigesh

11-12-06, 09:07 AM

..I think all pj's in this price range have some pro's or cons and everyone needs to chose the lesser of two evils.
Brandon

Right. All PJs, in any price range would have pros and cons. Besides, individual viewing habits (including perception of image attributes to the best of any individual's ability) and viewing environment would vary and can be subjective. If there was "one PJ for all," we wouldn't be having this forum. For those, looking for their first 720p LCD PJ, any from the current crop (including three main contenders Panasonic AX100, Sanyo PLV-Z5 or Epson PowerLite 400), could be fine I suppose subject to the aforesaid considerations.

g0wave

11-12-06, 01:08 PM

jpomp

11-13-06, 11:59 AM

I'm 99% sure I'm going with the Z5 until a thought just popped in my head. Although i will mostly be using this for 16:9/DVD watching, what about say, certain sports or shows on cable TV that don't use this format? Can the Z5 go 4:3, or do I not understand this correctly and this not apply?

My friend has a Panny and he showed me and it was bad-looking at first, but then he zoomed back about 50% and got a little better for viewing. Am I looking at this situation also?

Thank you...

LMcCullugh

11-13-06, 12:02 PM

Montezuma58

My Z-5 & Chief Mount will be delivered later today. I probably won't get it mounted until Thursday. My ceiling is 9' so I'll probably be at the limits on the vertical shift too. I'll be projecting onto a 106" Da-Lite Video Spectre Screen. I'll let you know what I think.

jigesh

11-13-06, 12:54 PM

..Can the Z5 go 4:3, or do I not understand this correctly and this not apply?...

See Pages 34 and 35 of the manual. (http://sanyoservice.com/pdf/images/PLVZ5.pdf) Setting screen to "Normal" would allow you to view 4:3 material in 4:3 way at the centre of the screen. You can stretch this by zoom or "Natural Wide 1" and "Narural Wide 2" but you may or may not like it. I think most 16:9 TVs, too, do more or less the same way with 4:3 contents.

jpomp

11-13-06, 01:43 PM

That's what I thought. Sweeeeeet....I'm putting in the order!!!

caesar1

11-16-06, 01:40 PM

Anyone using this with a 118 inch diaganol screen (or similar size)?

Also, anyone using a 118 inch screen (or similar size) and sitting at 11 feet (or closer)?

I'm really debating between the Z5 and the Ax100. But I'm concerned about the Z5:

1. ability to light up a 118 inch screen (I do have a dedicated room)

2. light up a 118 inch screen sufficiently with wall sconces and/or can lights on (for watching football games in HDTV).

3. Also concerned about SDE, sitting 11 feet from a 118 inch screen.

I just saw an AX100 in action, and although it was good, I would prefer a sharper image. But concerned that the sharper Z5 will leave me with SDE at the screen size I want and the distance I will be sitting.

caesar1

11-16-06, 01:50 PM

SDE? None to my eyes and seating distance. If I move closer to the projecton to see it, I would see it.

EDIT:- By the way, Z5 is Made in Japan if it matters to anyone.

How much closer till you see the SDE?

jigesh

11-16-06, 02:01 PM

How much closer till you see the SDE?

Around four feet for colorful scenes and around five feet if it's totally white (or very light) scene.

Your screen is larger so you may buy from a dealer who can exchange it for an AX100 if you see SDE. My dealer would take it back within a week and less than four hours on lamp.

caesar1

11-16-06, 02:23 PM

Around four feet for colorful scenes and around five feet if it's totally white (or very light) scene.

Your screen is larger so you may buy from a dealer who can exchange it for an AX100 if you see SDE. My dealer would take it back within a week and less than four hours on lamp.

5 feet from the screen, or 5 feet closer from where you are? Cause you are at 11.5 feet from an 84 inch wide screen (or at 1.6 times the width from the screen).

If you move UP 5 feet, you are 6.5 feet from the screen -- or .92 times the width from the screen.

If I sit 10 feet from a 118 inch diaganol screen (screen width = 103 inches), then I will be 1.17 times the width. So perhaps I will be okay for NOT seeing SDE.

jigesh

11-16-06, 02:45 PM

5-feet away from the screen. My seeing or not seeing SDE may not be relevant to your eyes though. I have Z5 and am very happy with its performance; but would caution you about possible in-warranty repair honoring issues some people had in past with Sanyo: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=611288

caesar1

11-16-06, 03:17 PM

jigesh

11-16-06, 03:19 PM

Hmm, well that's even better. How good are your eyes? I've had Lasik surgery, so mine are 20/20 if not 20/15.

20/20 with glasses.

TexasHeat

11-17-06, 02:35 PM

Well I did it. I ordered the Z5 today. I will be taking it over to my fellow AVS'ers house to do a real world shoot out of sorts. He has the AX-100 and we will both be using the Prismasonic 700 lens. We should be posting a little thread shortly about or impressions. He is much more knowledgable then myself so the write up should be pretty good. I don't think you can go wrong with either unit.

jigesh

11-17-06, 02:40 PM

ukap44

11-17-06, 09:53 PM

I'm new to the front projector market. Does anyone have the Mit HC3000? How does this compare to the sanyo z5 and sharp zvx3000?

JeepCop

11-17-06, 10:22 PM

Looking for any objective advice from owners...

-Completely light controlled basement.
-Want to project a 100" screen (I have an entire wall and could go beyond 150).
-I have a sectional sofa that allows 3-4 to sit at 13' back and if packed in one person could be as close a 9' - most of the time it will be my wife and I at 13'
-I intend on watching movies but also sporting events as well as some regular & hi-def cable

So I'm completely torn between the Z5 and the AX100.

AX100 appeal:
-smooth screen vs the SDE especially given the L shaped sectional
-ability to have some lights on in a room (TV/Sports/etc) and still have a brilliant visual.
-pretty much plug and play

Z5 appeal:
-all of the comments on sharpness and black levels
- $$$$$ - $500 difference with the rebate (that's a big difference)
- concern with the Z5 is the need for calibration

Do any of you who have either the Z5 or the AX100 use it in a similar manner as above - TV/Sports/Movies - etc?

If so your advice and feedback is much recommended. I'm posting this in both the Z5 and AX100 forums.
Man, you hit the nail on the head for me. I am in nearly an identical situation - minus the sectional sofa. I think I will be going with the Z5. This will be my first PJ. We are turning our unfinished basement into a theater room. I will be buying the PJ, Screen, Receiver, Speakers, etc. within the next month or so. The theater room will be used mostly for movies and sporting events. My question is about DirecTV. I've heard their standard picture quality leaves a lot to be desired. Is this true?

JeepCop

11-17-06, 10:23 PM

3Aims

11-18-06, 08:58 AM

Crap. I watched my first full DVD tonight. It was a widescreen movie with bars on the top and bottom. I noticed that the bottom right corner and top left corner are dark blueish and not black. If you look at the bar on the bottom, it's black about 2/3rds of the way going from left to right, then it turns blueish in the corner. Same pattern up top but the blue tint is on the top left. The blue only shows up when the projector is showing black in the two mentioned corners. What could be causing this?

Per PP, my only choices were to send it to Sanyo to be fixed or pay a restocking fee on the crap unit and get a new one. I went the new unit route and the new one is totally perfect.

rezonat0r

11-18-06, 06:43 PM

To throw some flames on the... umm... fire...

I just 'upgraded' from a Z4 to an AX100. (92", 1.1 gain screen, some ambient light). The reason I ditched the Z4 is because no matter what preset I used, the Avia color decoder test showed the red panel to be about 25% too hot. And it was not just my source, because in the projector's own Panel Adjustment red color pattern, the two leftmost red blocks were the same color - when they should have been at 100% and 80% respectively, I believe. Even using Color Management, the best I could do was get it down to 10% hot, and that was at the expense of the other colors looking off. Needless to say I grew weary of watching humans with orange leather skin.

So, I went and bought the AX100. Obviously the added brightness is great, though I am comparing a brand new bulb to one with 1700 hrs in the Z4. Out of the box colors are very, very good, and black level is better. However, I believe the Z4 spoiled me as far as sharpness and image clarity is concerned. On the Panny I can easily spot what looks like a fixed noise pattern over the image, borderline vertical banding, but more like a 'streaking' at a 5-or-so degree from vertical angle (it is not my screen). And this unit has darn near perfect convergence. The other issue (and I just posted in the AX100 thread in this forum) is noise, specifically an annoying high pitched whine that I would guess not many others notice. Yes... I am sensitive in this regard.

At this point I'm thinking about going back to Sanyo world with the Z5 due to the price, warranty, clarity, and lack of noise (both visual AND fan/whine). To those that have compared to the AX100, if I jump ship and go Z5, I would be interested in how much of a step backwards (if any) the blacks are.

jbrown15

11-18-06, 09:11 PM

From the reviews that are out there right now on the Z5, I don't think you'd be taking a step back in regards to blacks levels. The Z5 has very good blacks levels and shadow detail.

jigesh

11-19-06, 06:11 AM

I agree; I own Z5 (did not have Z4 or PX100 or any other PJ in past); and I am not complaining about the black. It is as good as my plasma if not better with projection on a off-white beige wall. And you are right, there's no audio/video noise either and the picture is sharp. Just make sure you won't miss the brightness of AX00U because it's easy to get used to specific viewing habits.

rezonat0r

11-19-06, 01:23 PM

Thinking out loud on the Z4/Z5 vs. AX100...

It's always nice to have more lumens headroom, and the AX100 has it. However, the human eye is designed to adapt to a given threshold of light. With the room dark, with the sheer lumens output of the Panny (and I'm running in Cinema1, eco, about as dim as I can make it), I found that when I take my eyes off the screen to look around, my vision is noticeably worse and takes a while to re-adjust. This effect was very noticeable compared to my Z4, and of course, is to be expected... I just wonder how good this is for my eyes, especially over the long term.

In regards to SmoothScreen, I was initially impressed with the film-ish image the AX100 throws. Over time I became less so; I started noticing a lot more noise in camera pans, and what looks like a fixed noise pattern overlayed on the image. I'm guessing this is related to SmoothScreen but can't be 100% sure, and I may be noticing this more precisely because the convergence on the unit is so good (using max vertical lense shift and blue is barely .5 pixel off even in corners).

I can definitely see how some prefer a film-ish image, but I have to remind myself that none of us are watching film, we are watching _digital video_. And in this regard I feel like there was less 'stuff' between me and the image from the Z4 compared to the AX100 with SS. I think this might make me, as Art described, a 'video purist'. : )

krasmuzik

11-19-06, 02:22 PM

rezonat0r

By any chance are you using the Toshiba HDDVD player?

You will face the same Z4 issue in the Z5 - by all reports it is the same color decoder issues.

I was able to perfect the reds in my calibration review of the Z4 using a reference HD video generator - but cappra double checked the color decoder with the HDDVD and found it was also pushing reds. I have since noticed this with other customers. There was no adjustment room left to correct for the HDDVD player - so you just have to compromise and reduce overall color a click or two.

rezonat0r

11-19-06, 03:56 PM

By any chance are you using the Toshiba HDDVD player?
I wish. :) I'm using an Xbox running Xbox Media Center outputting 720p over component. From what I can tell it is very neutral on color balance.

When I first got my Z4, I asked for a replacement because I thought the convergence was off a bit. So I had two Z4's running side by side, and I can say that there was a HUGE difference in color between the two out of the box. The 2nd had much more red push than the first - and I (wrongly) decided to keep the 2nd because the convergence was (slightly) better - but I didn't realize just how far out of whack the red was and that it couldn't be calibrated.

Looking at the red color bars produced internally from the Panel Adjustment menu, the leftmost 2 red blocks on the first unit were clearly distinct, with one 100% and the other 80%. But on the 2nd Z4 those two blocks looked like one giant bright red brick. Both units were just factory reset running in creative cinema mode. Avia running through my Xbox confirmed; showing red being about 25% too hot.

If every Z4 had this problem I think the reviews would be slamming it, so I'm pretty sure the red panel was just way overdriven on this one. It was virtually impossible to calibrate. I would strongly bet that there are many Z4's or Z5's out there that don't have a red/orange push at all - I had one myself!

Plasticfish

11-20-06, 03:36 PM

Does anybody from Ottawa, Ontario have a Z5 set up? Know where I can see one in action?

If so, please PM me.
Thanks,
Mark

neekos

11-20-06, 05:29 PM

Man, you hit the nail on the head for me. I am in nearly an identical situation - minus the sectional sofa. I think I will be going with the Z5. This will be my first PJ. We are turning our unfinished basement into a theater room. I will be buying the PJ, Screen, Receiver, Speakers, etc. within the next month or so. The theater room will be used mostly for movies and sporting events. My question is about DirecTV. I've heard their standard picture quality leaves a lot to be desired. Is this true?

Directv's SD picture quality is mediocre at best ! I hate it compared to the HD channels.

mkl1

11-22-06, 07:30 AM

Ciao at everyone, it's the first time that I write on this forum but I read it since 4 years ago and I would like to say THANK YOU!
Yesterday I've received the new boy (plv-z5) and I've fuond a great problem:
First I've tried to connect it with my Denon 3910 via hdmi but everytime that I've tried this the pj don't show any signal and the player stop to work and I had to swich off the main power button. After it I've tried to connect the pj with my htpc via dvi-hdmi cable and the pj recognized the signal and all was ok (I've played some capter of Sahara and...WOW, amazing!).
In the evening I've tried to connect my player via component and the only way to have a connection is swich off the dvi-hdmi output on the player.
Before I've had the Panasonic pt-ae700 whit the same player and the same cable (3 meter )but haven't had any problem.
I don't know what's wrong, can you help my?

Thank you, Michele.
P.S.: sorry for my english.

jigesh

11-22-06, 07:53 AM

Michele,

This is strange and should not happen. Do you have any other player with HDMI that you can try with Sanyo? Just to make sure HDMI on Sanyo works fine (it works on DVI as you already tested). I vaguely remember having read about Denon-Sanyo HDMI problems; but I could be mistaken.

About the need for switching HDMI on Denon off in order for component to work is 3910's problem, because it doesn't simultaneously output HDMI as well as component at the same time.

mkl1

11-22-06, 10:57 AM

Thank's jigesh, unfurtunately I don't have any other player whit hdmi ouput, this afternoon I've connected my new sat-receiver (Humax hdci2000) via hdmi and I had no problem at all even whit the cable that using usually whit the Denon.
This evening I'll try to upgrade the player's firmware version......
Ciao, Michele.

Super Chicken

11-24-06, 09:57 PM

Hello,

I just received my new Z5! I love the image, except...

Every bright area is outlined in red on the bottom and green on top, with the outline being 1-2 pixels thick. Even the on-screen menu. This would imply to me that there is a panel convergence problem. Is this something that I can adjust, or will the unit have to go back?

Thanks,
Tom

dougi3000

11-25-06, 05:50 PM

the sanyo Z5 is now available in Canada!
but at a price of $2000
:/

TexasHeat

11-25-06, 07:31 PM

**Note: due to the fact that the Z5 did not do a vertical stretch the comparison was brief and done on HD through component cables only. This a fleeting opinion and I would not say either unit was *better*

I just got back from comparing the Z5 and AX-100. I was over a fellow AVS'ers house and he set the system up so that we could A/B the two projectors by component. First off we found that the Z5 would not work with the Prismasonic lens unless you have an external scaler. It did not vertically fit the image like the AX-100 did.

I will offer you my humble opinion off the two in regards to the image. I didn't really notice the orange or red push in the Z5 that the reviewers are mentioning though it may be there. The Z5 is sharper and and the AX-100 does look a bit soft because of the smooth screen. However, the Z5 does have some SDE and the pixels can be made out clearly when close to the screen.

I cannot say either was better but watching both PJ's in a relatively low light with both PJ's on econo I didn't notice that the lumens were a factor. I would love to keep my Sanyo but I'm rethinking things because it wont scale.