Easy there, fellas...

Break-in related changes are subtle in my experience.

Didn't I just admit I was wrong :).
And for once, take it easy and you will live longer.

Yes, Jai, Miracles still happen. You admitted to being wrong.

And BTW thanks for your concern on my longevity.

Easy there, fellas...

Break-in related changes are subtle in my experience.


Very nice way of saying it. Were you ever an Ambassador? :D

My, a bit more blunt opinion (for whatever it is worth), is that those changes are so minute as to be considered non-existent for all practical purposes. I'll go a step further and say that the human mind is very easily fooled by itself and that all these "dramatic" changes after "break-in" are about as valid as Virgin Mary's apparitions. ;)

Well Jai may have expressed himself vaguely but I agree with his main point that the ARO is not that effective both in getting it to function properly and then in flattening the most offensive peak. Having toyed with a JL113 in several placements over the last two weeks the ARO only worked half the time and when it did I would have preferred it cut a 60hz peak rather than a slightly larger 25hz peak. I finally just disabled the ARO and installed a spare SMS for much better results.

On the next version of the Fathom it would be a terrific improvement to do away with this finicky auto function and install a manual single shot parametric equalizer that gives users more control. A simpler user controlable device like was found on the old SVS subs being far more effective than the ARO. The ARO is the weakest part of this otherwise exceptional subwoofer.

Very nice way of saying it. Were you ever an Ambassador? :D

My, a bit more blunt opinion (for whatever it is worth), is that those changes are so minute as to be considered non-existent for all practical purposes. I'll go a step further and say that the human mind is very easily fooled by itself and that all these "dramatic" changes after "break-in" are about as valid as Virgin Mary's apparitions. ;)

Or crossing a sea,when the waters open! :p

Subwoofer break in is 95% placebo and 5% something else...getting used to your new product.

Well Jai may have expressed himself vaguely but I agree with his main point that the ARO is not that effective both in getting it to function properly and then in flattening the most offensive peak. Having toyed with a JL113 in several placements over the last two weeks the ARO only worked half the time and when it did I would have preferred it cut a 60hz peak rather than a slightly larger 25hz peak. I finally just disabled the ARO and installed a spare SMS for much better results.

On the next version of the Fathom it would be a terrific improvement to do away with this finicky auto function and install a manual single shot parametric equalizer that gives users more control. A simpler user controlable device like was found on the old SVS subs being far more effective than the ARO. The ARO is the weakest part of this otherwise exceptional subwoofer.

Jakeman.

Point well taken. If you are saying is that the tallest peak might not be the most offensive one as it is in your case, your point is very valid. I am not sure how many rooms will encounter what you ran into. Having a peak at 25Hz is no too bad at all, having one at 60H is awful. What you have is probably a worse case scenario.

Having said that, I think the majority of ARO users got it to work well like I did. A manual equalizer would be great for those with the tools and knowledge on how to do it. I think JL Audio had to choose between "fully automatic: and "user controllable" and chose the former.

Yes, Jai, Miracles still happen. You admitted to being wrong.

And BTW thanks for your concern on my longevity.
BUT BUt But but.... John,
Sealed and acoustic suspensions are the same thing ;).
LOL, I am just kidding, so don't take me too seriously. Time for a hand-shake and move on :)

I just had to get my 2cents in here...

There is not really such a thing as break in. Sorry to dispel all these myths that writers have put in your head; but let's examine the parameters one by one.

The psychological truth is that anything will sound correct if you listen to it long enough; it becomes the new baseline (pun almost intended) of reference, and then "other" things will then sound wrong, or at least different.

When you listen to a new unknown for awhile, it's physical characteristics fill slots in your auditory expectations that may or may not line up with your auditory perceptions. For instance, if you play one brand of piano for a long time, when you play/hear a different one it seems "wrong" for a long time.

If you go back and forth between driving a truck and a sports car each seems wrong for a little while until the new proprioception reference points settle in, then the one you are in becomes the norm.

Besides, all speakers are of course designed and tested "new" --- with new parts. No one designs speakers with used drivers, with the surrounds loose and worn out, etc.

Yes, everythig has a downward curve. Speakers, like people, start getting worn out from the moment they're born, and speakers unfortunately do not replenish themselves to a certain extent as humans do... the point being is that speakers never get better, they only get worse over time; the surrounds get looser and less able to mechanically snap back to their original center position; the magnets get weaker, although only a tiny fraction.. and so on. Of course the phrase "over time" may typically mean MANY years, just like people.

The new(er) technologies such as those used (and often invented) by such companies as JL Audio are light years ahead of the stuff that so many of us enjoyed in "college". From the mid 70's on, especially in the Los Angeles area, many manufacturers of so-called "monitors" used the worst if not the cheapest drivers available to both (a) make a buck and (b) ensure that with a reasonable amount of smog and a reasonable amount of frat house partying, the most owners of these subs would "use up" the drivers and therefore require reconing. Under the thinly veiled guise of "better sound" the manufacturers used the worst and therefore most absorbent paper cones; the worst and therefore most smog/pollution-sensitive 'foam' surrounds, and so on. The resistance to humidity, ultraviolet, temperature cycling, pollutants, thermal effects of the coil and magnet, and so on was somewhere between non-existent and minimal.

Properly designed and made drivers that have been temperature cycled and stressed and exercised for a long time, still look the same in measurements as they did before they were "exercised".

And besides, the most difficult thing to do in speaker manufacturing (besides getting it right in the first place) is consistency! We want a speaker made today to sound the same - within incrediblty tight limits - as one made last week, or last year -- or next year!

Of course over a VERY long period (15-25 years) some capacitors can degrade. If the wrong solder is used it can craze and the connection can get bad and turn into a noisy junction. Carbon resistors can change a % or so... well you get the idea.

You might say that the magnet weakens MICROSCOPICALLY over time, perhaps a couple percent in many years. Some magnetic materials - and much about magnetism still borders on alchemy and magic - change their strength and other properties permanently when exposed to temperature abnormalities. Just because a certain driver says it's made of some magic magnetic material, do not think for a moment that one parameter is not traded off for another, perhaps more evil parameter.

So there you have it.
Bottom line: enjoy your speakers.
Barry

"From the mid 70's on, especially in the Los Angeles area, many manufacturers of so-called "monitors" used the worst if not the cheapest drivers available..."

Hmmm... Rogersound Labs?

Having a peak at 25Hz is no too bad at all, having one at 60H is awful. What you have is probably a worse case scenario.

Having said that, I think the majority of ARO users got it to work well like I did. A manual equalizer would be great for those with the tools and knowledge on how to do it. I think JL Audio had to choose between "fully automatic: and "user controllable" and chose the former.

Its not a worst case scenario. Its actually common depending on where you place your sub. NOt to knock JL, what I'm finding with the ARO is what I have found with every automomatic equalization device namely inferor settings compared to what can be had from more flexible manual settings. Same goes with SMS and, especially, Audessey auto-programs in receivers. The ARO does not work that well despite all the hoopla to the contrary. After all, a one shot parametric equalizer is a bandaid at best. If I'm going to use one bandaid I'd prefer to place it where I want.

Soundoctor,

Very good post,like I said above Placebo and getting used to a product(over time)is where the break in works its magic.



Now OT...why post in PURPLE? Your posts deserve a more contrasting and easy to read coloration.

Soundoctor,

Very good post,like I said above Placebo and getting used to a product(over time)is where the break in works its magic.

Now OT...why post in PURPLE? Your posts deserve a more contrasting and easy to read coloration.

A very good read Barry!! I enjoyed reading your short essay.

Please as Ear suggested, change your font color. Very, very difficult to read with the purple font.

Charles

Please as Ear suggested, change your font color. Very, very difficult to read with the purple font.

Charles

that's what I said at home ... I was using AVS dark theatre
but at work, with AVS white - everything looks fine

so I guess sounddoctor uses white

A quick and easy way to make it readable until the original post is edited, is to click and drag your mouse pointer over the text (don't click until you are finished reading). BTW, it was a nice post. One has to also consider psycho-acoustics.

Its not a worst case scenario. Its actually common depending on where you place your sub...

Are you saying that having the largest peak at 25Hz and a lesser one at 60Hz is common?

After many homes and subs I've never run into something like you have.

BTW did you try taming the 25Hz peak with thse LF EQ and then runningnthe ARO?

Are you saying that having the largest peak at 25Hz and a lesser one at 60Hz is common?

After many homes and subs I've never run into something like you have.

BTW did you try taming the 25Hz peak with thse LF EQ and then runningnthe ARO?
John,
That does not mean it does not exist. I've had larger peaks at 30Hz and lesser ones at 70Hz.

Are you saying that having the largest peak at 25Hz and a lesser one at 60Hz is common?

After many homes and subs I've never run into something like you have.

BTW did you try taming the 25Hz peak with thse LF EQ and then runningnthe ARO?
John,
You are making yourself sound very silly with that signature of yours. Seriously, you make me laugh sometimes, despite all the crap thrown at me. If you want to be more specific, you can say Portland, OR because there is a Portland in Maine. Unfortunately, you have to keep extending that list, until your signature becomes longer than your posts. It is high time you chill out or maybe the simplest solution is to add you to my "ignore" list and you will be the first in that.

Here is something for you to enjoy
sealed (aka: air-suspension, acoustic-suspension) (http://mobile.jlaudio.com/support_pages.php?page_id=149).
It's JL audio BTW :rolleyes: :cool: :D ;) :p :)

John,
You are making yourself sound very silly with that signature of yours. Seriously, you make me laugh sometimes, despite all the crap thrown at me. If you want to be more specific, you can say Portland, OR because there is a Portland in Maine. Unfortunately, you have to keep extending that list, until your signature becomes longer than your posts. It is high time you chill out or maybe the simplest solution is to add you to my "ignore" list and you will be the first in that...

Not silly at all if it is getting to you, and apparently it is. Otherwise it would be ignored. In any event it is fixed.

"From the mid 70's on, especially in the Los Angeles area, many manufacturers of so-called "monitors" used the worst if not the cheapest drivers available..."

Hmmm... Rogersound Labs?

Hmmm... more or less exactly.
And I should point out that for all those mfgs who made what they called "studio monitors" there wasn't a studio in LA who would use them or admit to using them...

Yes, I use white to view. I also turn my [video] monitor down so I can stare at it for 12+ hours and not fry my retina.
I am tediously working on a sub placement/setup paper to end all sub placement/setup papers. I am afraid it is ALMOST the great American novel by now. I'll link to it when it is done.
Barry

Looking forward to it SD.

Sure is easier to read your post now. :)

Yes, I use white to view. I also turn my [video] monitor down so I can stare at it for 12+ hours and not fry my retina....Barry

Let me add to that:

White or bright (ie., yellow, cyan) text on black background is extremely hard on the eyes. I do exactly what Barry does. Not writing a paper on subs though. :D

Are you saying that having the largest peak at 25Hz and a lesser one at 60Hz is common?

After many homes and subs I've never run into something like you have.

BTW did you try taming the 25Hz peak with thse LF EQ and then runningnthe ARO?

Every room will have peaks and valleys, where and how much depends on the room, sub placement and where you measure. I don't like running cascading equalizers since doing so introduces more ringing, and with a powerful flexible device like the SMS there is no need for ARO. What is more useful is the ELF trim but I didn't need to engage it after equalization.

At the moment I am running dual subs with the other one being a DD-18. As I suspected they blend very well together, after proper equalization of course. :p

What is more useful is the ELF trim but I didn't need to engage it after equalization.

I am very excited to see, now that my sub is better positioned, what the ARO does for me, versus the ELF trim, since from what I can tell with a SPL meter and disc of test tones, by far my biggest peak is in the 25hz realm. (Actually, it's about 20db hot, from 20 to 30hz.)

The ELF trim doesn't get me all the way there, but maybe the ARO will.

The fedex-ed cable replacement went to the local JL rep (Brian) rather than directly to me, so I haven't got it quite yet, but I'll report back when I try it.

My listening room may be a little strange:

The living room is about 18 x 12 feet, but is open in the back (behind the listening position) both into a dining room (which runs to the end of the house) and into a hallway (sort of behind the listening position, on the left, which also runs to the end of the house, the other direction. What this means is that the room is open to the WHOLE FLOOR of the house, so the sub thinks it's trying to fill a 900 square foot space of 9 foot ceilings.... which may explain why things are pretty flat until the 20 to 30hz range?

Sorry I haven't been able to reply. I had to work the Coachella concert this last weekend.

I just wanted to say, I should have taken a FR sweep when I felt there was a problem. What I did was very unscientific and subjective. I did learn what a room null was after having a problem with placement of my second sub. After tweaking that to work, I co-located the F113 to the corner. It's working well now.

Barry, thanks for the info. It's a great read.

In the end, the product is really remarkable and makes everything that much more fun and enjoyable.

What is the best way to take a frequency sweep of a room with my subwoofer?

Michael

I don't know if it's the BEST way, but I use an analog radio shack SPL meter ($30) and the Rives test tones CD ($20) which has a whole set of tones which are "corrected" for the Radio Shack meter's inaccuracies.

What is the best way to take a frequency sweep of a room with my subwoofer?MichaelTrueRTA with a microphone and preamp connected to your PC. Other products include RoomEQWizard, ETF, TEF, etc.

What is the best way to take a frequency sweep of a room with my subwoofer?

Michael

You can also get an Velodyne SMS-1 with the equalizer built in, but this solution is a little expensive.

I don't know if it's the BEST way, but I use an analog radio shack SPL meter ($30) and the Rives test tones CD ($20) which has a whole set of tones which are "corrected" for the Radio Shack meter's inaccuracies.


Hey did Radio Shack discountinue their analog SPL meter? I thought I read that in some A/V Mag...

You can also get an Velodyne SMS-1 with the equalizer built in, but this solution is a little expensive.And inefficient since the display of the SMS-1 smooths the information. If you want to see the real 1/12 or 1/24 octave response, you need a different measurement tool.

Room Equalization wizard and the RS meter calibration file seem to work well.

Darn it, I was all set to go with a pair of F112s, but have since realized that a pair of F112s is more expensive than one F113 while the F113 will sound slightly better (in MY listening location).

I am inclined to be selfish and do the one F113 so MY listening pleasure is maximized (saving a couple of bucks). Everyone else in the room is less important anyway! :D

Chris.

Darn it, I was all set to go with a pair of F112s, but have since realized that a pair of F112s is more expensive than one F113 while the F113 will sound slightly better (in MY listening location).

I am inclined to be selfish and do the one F113 so MY listening pleasure is maximized (saving a couple of bucks). Everyone else in the room is less important anyway! :D

Chris.


Holly Crap Chris...That's exactly how I feel 98% of the times...No matter how loud my GF is screaming :eek: Get them ear plugs that's what I did...

Djoel

Darn it, I was all set to go with a pair of F112s, but have since realized that a pair of F112s is more expensive than one F113 while the F113 will sound slightly better (in MY listening location).

I am inclined to be selfish and do the one F113 so MY listening pleasure is maximized (saving a couple of bucks). Everyone else in the room is less important anyway! :D

Chris.
Chris,
Dual subs can be used to get a more even response if not co-located and in my case it gave me a larger sweet spot. You being selfish :), if you don't care about a larger sweet spot, then a single f113 is the way to go. It always leaves you the option of getting a second one down the line. However, dual f112s co-located will give you +6dB more output than a single f112. I don't know how far behind an f112 is compared to the f113 in terms of max spl, but if it is within 3dB, then dual f112s make sense if the price of dual f112s is not much higher than a single f113. My personal choice is to go with the most potent sub you can buy and then add a second one later as funds come along.
I don't know about the f113s sounding better than the f112s. It would have an SPL advantage for sure. The f113 is an amazing sub and you will not be disappointed. BTW, I used to own dual f113s ;).
Good luck.

Holly Crap Chris...That's exactly how I feel 98% of the times...No matter how loud my GF is screaming :eek: Get them ear plugs that's what I did...

Djoel
Better yet, cook her dinner and have it ready at the table before she comes home and top it with a warm candle light.
Then you say, you will do the dishes and follow through. If she is a nice person, you can buy as many sub woofers as you want after that. Repeat it every few days and you earn enough points to justify your crazy hobby :D

I do most of the cooking :( No candles though.... :o

DJoel

I do most of the cooking :( No candles though.... :o

DJoel
Sorry buddy, you probably have set her expectations too high :D

hey guys I have a question the JL website lists the f113/f112 with a nominal conel diameter of 12 and 13 inches rexpectivly so wouldn't that make them 13ish and 15ish inch drivers if measured as the more normal basket diameter?

hey guys I have a question the JL website lists the f113/f112 with a nominal conel diameter of 12 and 13 inches rexpectivly so wouldn't that make them 13ish and 15ish inch drivers if measured as the more normal basket diameter?
Posts about the diameter have come up before. I think for the f113, the owners manual says 13.5" where as the web-site says 13". I am recollecting from memory as I have not gone back and checked the actual numbers, so you may want to verify. When the rubber meets the road, it is the displacement and linearity that matters, If we can get the actual "Thiele Small Parameters" these can be deduced.

Sorry buddy, you probably have set her expectations too high :D


You just echo what my friends tell me all the time....She can be a little princessy, but she deal with all my sudden upgrades fevers. I am sure yours is the same way too. You had twins F113's for a week or two, and now you tracking saw dust all over the place.

We got to lovem for dealing with our craziness :D

Love to see some pics of your project some day Jai

djoel

You had twins F113's for a week or two, and now you tracking saw dust all over the place.

We got to lovem for dealing with our craziness :D

Love to see some pics of your project some day Jai

djoel
I am actually hiring a cabinet maker to build the cabinets furniture grade. These are going to be lot larger than the f113s (22Wx46Hx24D) and two boxes. Each will house an 18" LMS 5400 with 3 18" Passive Radiators driven by dual Crown CE4000 amps (2500watts). Preliminary modeling analysis results show flat to 16Hz (2000grams per PR for tuning) and a whopping 118dB at 16Hz at 1M. That is for 1 sub. Now with 2, you can imagine what can happen. I wanted something very special to replace the f113s.
Good thing is I am learning a lot about subwoofer design and modeling.
I do miss the beautiful f113s.

I am actually hiring a cabinet maker to build the cabinets furniture grade. These are going to be lot larger than the f113s (22Wx46Hx24D) and two boxes. Each will house an 18" LMS 5400 with 3 18" Passive Radiators driven by dual Crown CE4000 amps (2500watts). Preliminary modeling analysis results show flat to 16Hz (2000grams per PR for tuning) and a whopping 118dB at 16Hz at 1M. That is for 1 sub. Now with 2, you can imagine what can happen. I wanted something very special to replace the f113s.
Good thing is I am learning a lot about subwoofer design and modeling.
I do miss the beautiful f113s.


As I read your post a John Mellencamp tune jumped into my head...You know the one with chorus that goes ( "and the walls came crumbling down") :eek:

DJoel

I am actually hiring a cabinet maker to build the cabinets furniture grade. These are going to be lot larger than the f113s (22Wx46Hx24D) and two boxes. Each will house an 18" LMS 5400 with 3 18" Passive Radiators driven by dual Crown CE4000 amps (2500watts). Preliminary modeling analysis results show flat to 16Hz (2000grams per PR for tuning) and a whopping 118dB at 16Hz at 1M. That is for 1 sub. Now with 2, you can imagine what can happen. I wanted something very special to replace the f113s.
Good thing is I am learning a lot about subwoofer design and modeling.
I do miss the beautiful f113s.
I, for one, will be following your build (DIY forum), because the LMS 5400 looks so bleepin bad. The question is, how long will it take for them to arrive. Still out of stock last time I checked.

Good luck!

Jai,

Good luck with the build,I for one will go dual LMS-5400 18" after I finish my dual TC-3000 15". Good times are rolling.



And since this is THE Fathom thread I want to say to anyone considering a JL Audio product after sale service is second to none.

One of my Fathoms the first f113 had an issue,well my subwoofer was taken care of and I have a new unit home! Impressive and this level of service demands respect.

Dave from Gem-Sen and the JL Audio people are class individuals and I have no doubt any JL Audio customer is in good hands.


Again thank you

That is great to hear, the Ear. Although I have yet to receive a confirmation call, I ordered a F113 from half way across the states. It is reassuring to hear service is excellent in the case something happens in transit, and simply for the fact that the dealer I buy from is far away. This is going to be one hell of an upgrade from my htib sub. LOL. Got to audition the unit nearby, but they wouldnt budge from the msrp. Oh well.

I agree that JL Audio's customer service (and reps and dealers) in my experience have been quite good. I received my replacement mic cable and I'm now flying with the ARO.

Thank you John and Arthur. Since this is a JL thread, I didn't want to talk about it more.
I will keep you folks posted on progress.
What was wrong with your first JL?

Thank you John and Arthur. Since this is a JL thread, I didn't want to talk about it more.
I will keep you folks posted on progress.
What was wrong with your first JL?
I know there was a thread in DIY about you getting convinced to try DIY, but I couldn't find it. What's the thread title? (I'm ASSUMING that it's still active)

I'll keep up with the project over there so as to not create waves. :D

I know there was a thread in DIY about you getting convinced to try DIY, but I couldn't find it. What's the thread title? (I'm ASSUMING that it's still active)

I'll keep up with the project over there so as to not create waves. :D
It (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10441677#post10441677) has about 600 posts and I stopped posting in it to avoid it getting any longer until parts arrive. Once the parts start coming in, I will start a new thread so people can directly go to the build. No more DIY conversation in this thread :).

Thank you John and Arthur. Since this is a JL thread, I didn't want to talk about it more.
I will keep you folks posted on progress.
What was wrong with your first JL?

The sub made a huge "BOUM" sound,I was thinking some boulder hit the building! :eek: Noticed the line in stopped working,used the XLR input.WOrked for a few weeks great,a few days ago "BOUM" and "BOUM" huge cone excursion...as grills were off on my JL's and they were positioned left and right next to my speakers. :eek:

So I sent a PM to Manville who was fast to answer and I got a phone call at work from JL Audio! Later I spoke with Dave from Gem-Sen . My sub was picked up and a new one arrived today! :)


You see what great service is worth when you need them.

The sub made a huge "BOUM" sound,I was thinking some boulder hit the building! :eek: Noticed the line in stopped working,used the XLR input.WOrked for a few weeks great,a few days ago "BOUM" and "BOUM" huge cone excursion...as grills were off on my JL's and they were positioned left and right next to my speakers. :eek:

So I sent a PM to Manville who was fast to answer and I got a phone call at work from JL Audio! Later I spoke with Dave from Gem-Sen . My sub was picked up and a new one arrived today! :)


You see what great service is worth when you need them.
Holy cow Arthur. You are the only one I think who is capable of abusing an f113. Anyways I am glad it's fixed :). That thing is virtually indestructible. One can ride over it with a 4x4 and the darn thing would still work is what I thought. Not so.
Built like a tank, unlike any I have seen before. YOu are a a unique case, I should say

Holy cow Arthur. You are the only one I think who is capable of abusing an f113. Anyways I am glad it's fixed :). That thing is virtually indestructible. One can ride over it with a 4x4 and the darn thing would still work is what I thought. Not so.
Built like a tank, unlike any I have seen before. YOu are a a unique case, I should say

Abusing!?


Abuse is careless use of a product,ignorant people abuse products.I know more than enough about subs and audio to knowwhere to stop and often buy each product to be used at a small fraction of its capabilities.

Well, it looks like I went F113 instead of twin F112s. Figured I could always get another one if I cared about the other listening positions in the room. :D

May ask help with tweeking this beast. Considering that previously I had a B&W 500 dollar sub, this will be a SLIGHT upgrade. :D

Hope to get it next week.

Chris.

Abusing!?


Abuse is careless use of a product,ignorant people abuse products.I know more than enough about subs and audio to knowwhere to stop and often buy each product to be used at a small fraction of its capabilities.
I was kidding :) Arthur. Sorry, it came out wrong.

I was kidding :) Arthur. Sorry, it came out wrong.

No problem,no farm animals were abused by the comments. ;)

No problem,no farm animals were abused by the comments. ;)
I wonder if there was a leak in the box that caused it to bottom out. Can you find out what exactly was wrong?
When things like this happen, it is always good to know what went wrong. With my Danley when I first had an issue, I thought it was a cabinet leak but then it turned out be a faulty driver.

I have to pick up my F113 directly from the dealer. What are the exact dimensions of the box packaging?

Chris.

I have to pick up my F113 directly from the dealer. What are the exact dimensions of the box packaging?

Chris.
I don't know if this is exact, but it is pretty close
25 x 22 x 25 in
150lbs.

Jai,

My educated guess would be a conection problem at the input or amp level(on the amp plate). No air leaks or driver issues here.

Aesthetics question for fathom owners.

Which finish have you purchased? Satin or High Gloss black? How does the matte black look versus the high gloss black? I am concerned about fingerprinting and the like with the high gloss black finish.

I know - they will both sound the same!!

I have satin, looks beautiful. And you don't really go admire the finish in the corner anyway. And it saved me a hundred or two, can't remember.

I have satin, looks beautiful. And you don't really go admire the finish in the corner anyway. And it saved me a hundred or two, can't remember.A bit of a savings would be great as I am thinking of adding two f112's and my other speakers are natural cherry with black grills.
'

I chose the black high gloss to match my Veritas 2.4. The gloss finish is outstanding.

Gloss black all the way,a well done gloss black looks so damn good.

Count me as one who went with the lower priced finish, but what I really wanted was to pay an extra 100 or 200, and get a wood veneer. In fact, in order to keep the sub in the living room listening room, and not move it to the garage theater, the lady of the house may REQUIRE I hire a cabinet-maker to clad the beauty in wood.

Anyone done that?

Satin. Where the sub sits, it wouldn't have made any difference.

Satin b/c its $200 less. (thanks again jacksonian). Mine should be here in 2 weeks! Hey, any of you guys use an Auralex great gramma with your F113? (yes I checked it can handle over 300lbs).

Aesthetics question for fathom owners.

Which finish have you purchased? Satin or High Gloss black? How does the matte black look versus the high gloss black? I am concerned about fingerprinting and the like with the high gloss black finish.

I know - they will both sound the same!!

What are you talking about? The high gloss black provides higher head room down low! :p

I think I'm going with gloss. :)

I went glossy my self my vendor convince me saying it was few bucks more.... I love the finish it goes with Pio Pdp..

DJoel

I had glossy too. Does show fingerprints, but an awesome piece of work.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s57/djoeltaveras/MonsterCableSW025.jpg




Nice and shinny

Mine's glossy too. If you can't see the unit, there's no point, but I have it in a place I can see it and I love the gloss black.

I had glossy too. Does show fingerprints, but an awesome piece of work.

A quick shot of Meguiar's NXT Speed Detailer and a micro fiber cloth :)

Hello all,
Are there any Canadian JL owners living in the Vancouver, BC area out there that can point me in the direction of a dealer? I have tried to contact gemsen in a number of ways but haven't received a reply by e-mail or phone. Any help is appreciated.

Hello all,
Are there any Canadian JL owners living in the Vancouver, BC area out there that can point me in the direction of a dealer? I have tried to contact gemsen in a number of ways but haven't received a reply by e-mail or phone. Any help is appreciated.

Dave from Gem-Sen should give you a repply,each time I called I spoke with him.

Gloss black would look nice, but I don't want the picture reflected in my sub, so I went matte black.

Chris.

Gloss black would look nice, but I don't want the picture reflected in my sub, so I went matte black.

Chris.



Huh :confused:


DJoel

Huh :confused:
Yep... Light reflected from the screen, front projection, then reflected from the gloss surface of the f113. I went matte black also.

Yep... Light reflected from the screen, front projection, then reflected from the gloss surface of the f113. I went matte black also.


Oh I get that, I misread it.....


djoel

Hey guys completely off topic here, but how does this driver compare to JLs car audio W7 driver? They look somewhat similar to me and am curious how similar they are technically? Thanks for any insight.

Hey guys completely off topic here, but how does this driver compare to JLs car audio W7 driver? They look somewhat similar to me and am curious how similar they are technically? Thanks for any insight.

The Fathom 13.5" has a more potent motor and is capable of a higher excursion(linear).The motor enables JL to extract the max out of the driver in a tiny box.

Look at the magnetic structure and weight of both drivers,the Fathom 13.5 is around 70lbs! A monster of a 13.5" driver,heck even few 18" use motors this capable.

I want JL to make a 13.5 that uses a more capable motor than the TC LMS-5400 (if it doesn't already)

Hey guys completely off topic here, but how does this driver compare to JLs car audio W7 driver? They look somewhat similar to me and am curious how similar they are technically? Thanks for any insight.

I would love to see a pic with a car audio JL 13W7 next to the home theater 13W7. Manville take a pic and post it, so people can see and not come into this thread and ask the same Q 100x :p .

You can see the HT 13W7 and the car audio version side by side in this movie:

http://home.jlaudio.com/multimedia_pages.php?page_id=15#

Cool movie, interesting that they look essentially identical.
(The possibility that my home subwoofer can take the abuse of a car subwoofer does my heart good.) :D

Chris.

Cool movie, interesting that they look essentially identical.
(The possibility that my home subwoofer can take the abuse of a car subwoofer does my heart good.) :D

Chris.

My point exactly... they look very similar.

Ummm.... you guys didn't see the clear difference in the size of the motor???

I'll have to get a photo up somewhere on the JL site.

I finally got a chance to demo an F113 yesterday. My first impression was Wow this thing is smaller than I imagined. I'm looking to upgrade my existing sub (MK V125) and was all psyched and convinced that this would be the best sub I ever heard. But after hearing it I did not get the impact I expected. It could be a number of things, but I'm not sure. Any ideas?

The dealer just installed and calibrated the demo unit that morning, so it may not have been set up properly (but I think it was). The gain was set at the 75% point, which was where it needed to be for calibration. We switched it over to have the gain controlled by the receiver and it made no difference. We turned up the sub gain, but then we got bass bloat. The system was likely calibrated for a flat response. When I listen to rock, I want the bass in my face and it wasn't there. Maybe the system needed a different curve for this.

Also, the room is fairly large (24x21, vaulted ceilings and large high-ceilinged hallway connected to another room with vaulted ceilings), so I'm sure this has an affect. My room is also large, but maybe 25% less than the demo room. How large a room can one F113 be placed in before starting to loose the slam factor?

Anyway, the dealer was very nice, seemed very knowledgable, and offered to let me take the unit home. I think I'll take him up on that, but will have to wait until I can recruit someone to help carry it.

While it's impossible to know for sure since I wasn't there, it sounds like you may have heard accurate bass but wanted more thump?

Hey Manville, (can I call you that on here :D ) Are there any chances of us financially disadvantaged individuals getting a home sub using the W6v2 drivers or a variant? I have a pair of 10W6v2's in my car and they are fantastic and I think they would make an incredible sub in the $1,000.00 range.

Nevermind I just read about the F110 in the other thread and I like that idea much better. :cool:

While it's impossible to know for sure since I wasn't there, it sounds like you may have heard accurate bass but wanted more thump?
That's exactly right. The bass there seemed very similar to the bass I already have. It was good and got real low, but it didn't rock. With all the great comments on this sub, I'm sure the problem is something else. What is the maximum room size recommended for one of the F113's?

What very well may be one of the few, if not only f113s in the Chicago-land area is sitting in my foyer at the moment awaiting a flogging this weekend. I know it's only 15 or 20lbs heavier than the f112, but it sure seemed like a lot more than that moving it from the trunk to the house. I can't imagine having to slog this thing around trying to find a good placement. Thankfully I'm limited in that arena so it's going in pretty much one place for the duration of my time with it.

Should be fun putting it up against the B&W 855 I have currently on loan. Although I just read tonight that they've up'd the ante with new models that have digital room correction. :eek:

What very well may be one of the few, if not only f113s in the Chicago-land area is sitting in my foyer at the moment awaiting a flogging this weekend. I know it's only 15 or 20lbs heavier than the f112, but it sure seemed like a lot more than that moving it from the trunk to the house. I can't imagine having to slog this thing around trying to find a good placement. Thankfully I'm limited in that arena so it's going in pretty much one place for the duration of my time with it.

Should be fun putting it up against the B&W 855 I have currently on loan. Although I just read tonight that they've up'd the ante with new models that have digital room correction. :eek:

Please give us your thoughts on the F113 vs ASW855! I'd be very interested to hear your findings as i currently have an 800series system that soon needs a sub.

BTW - I believe B&W scrapped plans to introduce the 800 series subs with room correction.

With the right goodies, it's relatively easy to move. There are these things:
http://www.ezmoves.com
and similar things at Home depot, Lowes, Ace Hardware, etc.
The rubber-like feet on the JL products are ASTONISHINGLY strong - don't even TRY to move the sub with them on an actual hard floor!

Barry

BTW - I believe B&W scrapped plans to introduce the 800 series subs with room correction.
I read it in the latest 800 series catalog, so I'd like to think that if it got printed in their literature, that they are producing them. I'll likely confirm with my B&W dealer today.

I'll certainly post feedback about the two. I've already compared the 855 to the f112 in another thread if you care to read it.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=840605

I would take a JL vs a B&W sub any day. B&W makes some fine speakers,some of the best made,but subs...JL Audio winns this match with ease.

Simply the JL will more more air and dig deeper.Quality,it does not even give an inch to B&W.

Fathom f113 ...no B&W sub can match it.

Anyone know any place near St Louis you can get a demo of this monster? There is one dealer of home audio listed in St. Louis, but no dice. Hell I would almost buy one blind if I could get a hold of it somehow. Internet, etc.. Thanks a lot.

Scanido, you were right about the B&W subs with room correction. Spoke to my dealer this afternoon and he said they never got produced. When I asked why he speculated that perhaps they couldn't get the feature to work properly.

The EAR - - unless you've heard a B&W 855, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it. Tomorrow will be demo day for it and the f113, which should be fun.

Your comment about the JL digging deeper is interesting. Nowhere has JL published frequency response numbers for their subs. Not on their website and not in any product lit. I find that strange, and borderline questionable. Plus their amp wattage gives a short term RMS value. Again, an unusual choice, and potentially misleading B&W? 855 goes to 18Hz +/-3dB, 1000W . . .says so online and in their catalog.

For the f112 and f113 owners out there, where is your level set for music and HT use? I put the f113 into my system a little while ago and find that to get any appreciable performance for two channel use, the level is set to about 3 o'clock, which I would estimate is about 85-90% of its max. This seems ridiculous to me. The B&W I have is at approximately 10 or 11 o'clock. I had this same problem on the f112 when I had it oddly enough.

And the JL makes an audible electrical hum that is noticeable at two or three feet. This is unacceptable at this price point IMO.

Sounds like there's a problem with the JL sub you got, or something in the chain is incompatible.

Hi Minardi. Is your 113 in the same spot as the 112? Is it possible your listening position is in a null? Have you walked or crawled around the room? A few pages back I said I had problems with mine when I first got it and many of the members explained how you adapt to the sound shortly after. Many of the members can help you more if you grab your trusty radio shack meter and give them some numbers.

Just put the B&W and JL thru their paces on a few scenes from A New Hope. The JL bettered the B&W with every scene. I started laughing when I heard glasses in the kitchen rattling, and they're probably 20' away. The f113 just hit harder, and with greater speed.

But I'm just completely lost as to why the thing is miserable when doing two channel. Why is there no output? Hopefully the dealer can explain this one.

Just put the B&W and JL thru their paces on a few scenes from A New Hope. The JL bettered the B&W with every scene. I started laughing when I heard glasses in the kitchen rattling, and they're probably 20' away. The f113 just hit harder, and with greater speed.



And and...what did I say? LOL

The Fathom f113 moves more air,the B&W 's driver probably moves 2L less and maybe more. I do have experience with the previous top of the line B&W ported sub...the one with the big 15" (also used in the 801's)toroid in a sealed cap on the back.

The B&W is no doubt a good sub,but the f113 is simply better(extension,built quality,price performance ratio)...smaller,and moves more air.

Just my opition here ;)

Minardi,

How are you managing the subwoofer's signal for two-channel???

msmith_JL, could you post the dimensions on the F110?

And and...what did I say? LOL

The Fathom f113 moves more air,the B&W 's driver probably moves 2L less and maybe more. I do have experience with the previous top of the line B&W ported sub...the one with the big 15" (also used in the 801's)toroid in a sealed cap on the back.

The B&W is no doubt a good sub,but the f113 is simply better(extension,built quality,price performance ratio)...smaller,and moves more air.

Just my opition here ;)
If you had first hand experience with the B&W, then I'm fine with the comments. This one isn't ported by the way.

Minardi,

How are you managing the subwoofer's signal for two-channel???
It's connected to the sub output on my Krell processor. Front speakers are set to 'small' with an 80Hz crossover.

The JL and B&W are set up the same way, which is why I'm surprised by what I'm seeing with the former. For HT usage, the gain on the JL is set to variable, but the level is at the reference setting (12 o'clock), and I have plenty of output.

Is there somebody at JL I could speak with today, perhaps in technical support? The sub has to go back to the dealer tomorrow and if I can get this issue resolved, I'll be placing an order for one in the next few weeks.

Any comments on the hum? Would you suspect a balanced cable to eliminate the problem, as the processor has a balanced sub output.

Thanks for any assistance you can provide.

If you had first hand experience with the B&W, then I'm fine with the comments. This one isn't ported by the way.

With the previous top of the line B&W unit,not the one you had.

It's connected to the sub output on my Krell processor. Front speakers are set to 'small' with an 80Hz crossover.

The JL and B&W are set up the same way, which is why I'm surprised by what I'm seeing with the former. For HT usage, the gain on the JL is set to variable, but the level is at the reference setting (12 o'clock), and I have plenty of output.

Is there somebody at JL I could speak with today, perhaps in technical support? The sub has to go back to the dealer tomorrow and if I can get this issue resolved, I'll be placing an order for one in the next few weeks.

Any comments on the hum? Would you suspect a balanced cable to eliminate the problem, as the processor has a balanced sub output.

Thanks for any assistance you can provide.

A balanced connection may help with the hum. Did you experiment with the Input Mode switch on the back of the f113? You can change the unbal. input from grounded to isolated which often helps with hum issues.

Feel free to call our tech support dept: 888-JLAUDIO (ask for Ward Benjamin).

It's connected to the sub output on my Krell processor. Front speakers are set to 'small' with an 80Hz crossover.

The JL and B&W are set up the same way, which is why I'm surprised by what I'm seeing with the former. For HT usage, the gain on the JL is set to variable, but the level is at the reference setting (12 o'clock), and I have plenty of output.



Minardi2, it may be processor related based on what I've read here: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/receivers-amps-processors/4537-avr-frequency-response-graphs.html.

My own experience is the same as yours in stereo that it does sound a little "light" compared to 5.1 but, it still sounds great. You would need to measure your Krell in stereo to see if it is cutting the bass response,......

For the f112 and f113 owners out there, where is your level set for music and HT use? I put the f113 into my system a little while ago and find that to get any appreciable performance for two channel use, the level is set to about 3 o'clock, which I would estimate is about 85-90% of its max. This seems ridiculous to me. The B&W I have is at approximately 10 or 11 o'clock. I had this same problem on the f112 when I had it oddly enough.

And the JL makes an audible electrical hum that is noticeable at two or three feet. This is unacceptable at this price point IMO.

The audible noise is probably a grounding issue. I had the same problem and flipping the switch on the back of the unit made it disappear.

I have the sub hooked up to a Denon AVR-4306, with the sub set to reference level, and in stereo pure direct mode with the bass management set to +0db crossing over at 80Hz, I get plenty of bass with music and overwhelming bass with movies. On some recordings the bass is just plain weak, and for those albums I may put the sub in variable mode and turn the dial to 2 or 3 o'clock.

I have the sub in the front right corner of the room, which seems to give me the best bass overall bass response. Only problem is that the windows in the room are only a few feet away from the sub and they rattle like crazy when the stereo is in HT mode. Nothing I can do about that until I move to a house with a better HT room.

Side note: 110+ year old house + JL sub = plaster management issues.

For the f112 and f113 owners out there, where is your level set for music and HT use? I put the f113 into my system a little while ago and find that to get any appreciable performance for two channel use, the level is set to about 3 o'clock, which I would estimate is about 85-90% of its max. This seems ridiculous to me. The B&W I have is at approximately 10 or 11 o'clock. I had this same problem on the f112 when I had it oddly enough.

And the JL makes an audible electrical hum that is noticeable at two or three feet. This is unacceptable at this price point IMO.
About the hum, mine was dead quiet (both units). Did you have hum issues on the same electrical circuit with any other sub?
Disconnect the line level input signal in the sub coming from your processsor LFE.
Now turn on the sub and if you hear hum, it maybe an amplifier related issue.

For the f112 and f113 owners out there, where is your level set for music and HT use? I put the f113 into my system a little while ago and find that to get any appreciable performance for two channel use, the level is set to about 3 o'clock, which I would estimate is about 85-90% of its max. This seems ridiculous to me. The B&W I have is at approximately 10 or 11 o'clock. I had this same problem on the f112 when I had it oddly enough.

And the JL makes an audible electrical hum that is noticeable at two or three feet. This is unacceptable at this price point IMO.

Where the gain knob ends up is of no consequence unless you "run out of knob".
No idea why you call this "ridiculous". This is not a problem.

The hum is, more than likely, a ground loop issue. I had to put a ground lifter an a TV monitor that was hooked up to my processor. Go figure. Again this is NOT the sub's fault. No hum is acceptable at any price point.

Hi All:

Very early on in this thread I had mentioned I had tried an F113 in comparison to my pair of M&K MX200’s and SVS PB2+ and found that the F113 couldn’t keep up. I had a pretty big space and was demoing the F113 since I wouldn’t have the room for all the subs in the new space. I went ahead and got a pair of F113’s for the new theater and finally got them hooked up and was generally disappointed with the result. I have a relatively small room, 13X20, I couldn’t get the pair of F113’s to impress me at all. I was using the variable setting and I had the dial turned almost all the way up, what was there was very clean but it just wasn’t enough.

I then went back to ground zero to set thing up and I thought I would try something different. I went ahead and pumped up the signal coming out of my processor so I was giving a very strong signal to the F113’s. That seems to have been the trick for me, for the first time I got kicked in the chest by a bass drum and have had to turn the subs down a bit. I am using single ended connections (RCA) split feeding each sub separately. It appears to me that the JL F113 is sensitive to the input signal and if it isn’t getting a strong enough signal it just can’t perform. I think that is why in head to head comparisons between my first sub set up and the F113’s the F113’s couldn’t compete when just plugging the cord from the old sub into the F113’s

Anyone not getting enough sound or impact out of their sub try sending a stronger signal to the F113.

I was confused why there was so much really good press and buzz with these subs but in my experience and some others they were underwhelming. For me at least it seems to be that the F113’s require a stronger signal than any other sub I have tried. Maybe those not having problems just happen to have a processor that sends out a good strong signal and didn’t need to bump it up any.

I hope my experience can be of use to some of you.

Gary

Where the gain knob ends up is of no consequence unless you "run out of knob".
No idea why you call this "ridiculous". This is not a problem.

The hum is, more than likely, a ground loop issue. I had to put a ground lifter an a TV monitor that was hooked up to my processor. Go figure. Again this is NOT the sub's fault. No hum is acceptable at any price point.
It's a problem because I fear that I might run out of gain. And I see no reason why it should have to be turned up that far anyway to get sufficient output.

Flipping the switch on the back didn't have any affect, but it might not matter as my processor has a balanced sub output that I'll eventually be using. I'm hoping that clears things up, but if not, I may have to plug it into one of my dedicated lines as a means to troubleshoot.

It's a problem because I fear that I might run out of gain. And I see no reason why it should have to be turned up that far anyway to get sufficient output.

Get over that fear. It didn't happen.

Flipping the switch on the back didn't have any affect, but it might not matter as my processor has a balanced sub output that I'll eventually be using. I'm hoping that clears things up, but if not, I may have to plug it into one of my dedicated lines as a means to troubleshoot.

I was in the same situation as yours. Grounding switch had no effect AND I was already using the balanced output. Ground loops can be baffling. Mine was resolved by putting a ground lifter at the AC input of the TV monitor I use to setup the processor.

...it seems to be that the F113’s require a stronger signal than any other sub I have tried. Maybe those not having problems just happen to have a processor that sends out a good strong signal and didn’t need to bump it up any.

JL Audio actually increased the input sensitivity soon after the Fathoms began shipping...

glennQ

As Glenn states, early units had their reference sensitivity calibrated to AES standards. This resulted in some users complaining of insufficient gain, so we raised the sensitivity by +10dB.

It should be noted that even the early low-gain units will work just fine with almost any prepro, you just have to dial up the prepro's sub output level a bit more than with other subs.

Are the Thiele small parameters of the f113 driver known?
If so, can somone post the numbers here?
Thanks,
-Jai

Jai,

Sorry to say that we do not publish the parameters for the HT13W7 used in the f113 (since we do not sell this driver as an individual component).

We do, of course, publish parameters for the car audio version of the 13W7 here:
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_subs.php?series_id=10

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Only 7 of the parameters are needed to get an understanding on how it models.

Qes, Qts, Fs, Vas, Mms, Le and Re.
Maybe I am asking for too much :), but I am curious to see how this driver looks on a model since it sounded so very good.

Jai,

Sorry to say that we do not publish the parameters for the HT13W7 used in the f113 (since we do not sell this driver as an individual component).

We do, of course, publish parameters for the car audio version of the 13W7 here:
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_subs.php?series_id=10

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.
No Problem. I understand. Thanks for your response.

Jai,

Sorry to say that we do not publish the parameters for the HT13W7 used in the f113 (since we do not sell this driver as an individual component).

We do, of course, publish parameters for the car audio version of the 13W7 here:
http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_subs.php?series_id=10

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.
It says that the Xmax is 1.25"/32mm. Doesn't the HT version have a much larger Xmax. I think it has been discussed here before, but can you disclose the Xmax value? Linear and Mechanically limited.
Thanks.

It says that the Xmax is 1.25"/32mm. Doesn't the HT version have a much larger Xmax. I think it has been discussed here before, but can you disclose the Xmax value? Linear and Mechanically limited.
Thanks.

I will see if I can get that information.

Home resion could have around 38mm Xmax maybe more...Xmech just a hair above 2 inches one way.

Just my gross guess ;)

Home resion could have around 38mm Xmax maybe more...Xmech just a hair above 2 inches one way.

Just my gross guess ;)

At what point are you getting to where you start having alignment issues? I am guessing that the further out you go the harder it is to keep it all aligned. At some point we will begin exceeding that boundary and have to rethink the subwoofer?

At what point are you getting to where you start having alignment issues? I am guessing that the further out you go the harder it is to keep it all aligned. At some point we will begin exceeding that boundary and have to rethink the subwoofer?

If you are thinking mechanical misalignement,it should be no big deal to have drivers with a 50 or 60mm one way Xmax.

I will see if I can get that information.
One of the folks in DIY already got me the answer and it was from you originally :D. With all the exciting things happening at JL, this may have been forgotten, so here it is




------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The drivers used in the Fathoms are not the same as the car versions of the W7. The motors are different and the coils are different.

The Effective Displacement spec on our website is based on multiplying the effective piston area times a conservative value for peak to peak excursion capability that is attainable in each product (3.6 inches in the case of the f113, 3.42 inches for the f112).

Peak to peak excursion x effective piston area = Effective displacement
3.6 x 107.35= 386 cu.in. (6.3 liters)
3.42 x 84 = 287 cu.in. (4.7 liters)

Effective displacement (based on attainable excursion) is a more accurate indicator of maximum SPL capability.... Linear displacement reflects the output capability with a very low level of distortion.

Linear, peak-to-peak excursion is 2.7 inches for the f113 and 2.4 inches for the f112... so in terms of linear displacement (constant number of VC turns in the gap), the spec is:
290 cu.in (4.75 liters) for the f113
201.6 cu.in (3.3 liters) for the f113

Finally, the Driver Displacement specs on our mobile site describe the physical displacement of the product inside an enclosure... in simple terms how much box volume the woofer's structure actually occupies in the enclosure. This spec is necessary for accurate box volume calculations when building a custom enclosure.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.
:p

Kind of a noob question, but then again I am a noob when it comes to subs. I am looking at getting two 113 's and connecting them to sms-1. First off do
I just use ten dollar mic xlr wire for interconnects, or is there something to be gained by using a slightly higher quality interconnect? Secondly, do I use the xlr output and run the two in master slave?

Kind of a noob question, but then again I am a noob when it comes to subs. I am looking at getting two 113 's and connecting them to sms-1. First off do
I just use ten dollar mic xlr wire for interconnects, or is there something to be gained by using a slightly higher quality interconnect? Secondly, do I use the xlr output and run the two in master slave?

No discernable difference but Blue Jeans has a nice Belden/Neutrik XLR at a reasonable price (I have used both). Spending that much for subs, why cheap out on the cables.

No discernable difference but Blue Jeans has a nice Belden/Neutrik XLR at a reasonable price (I have used both). Spending that much for subs, why cheap out on the cables.


RMK that is exactly what I was looking for, an affordable decent yet not rediculous cable that I can order by the foot to finish the install. TY

Can anyone recommend a good place to audition this sub or the f112 in the Southbay, CA area?

If you mean the south bay of the SF Bay Area, I feel your pain. As of one month ago, there wasn't such a place, and the closest dealer with one instock was in the East Bay.

Oops no sorry, I mean Torrance, Redondo Beach area. Thanks anyways.

Go to manufacturer's website, and enter your zip code. Otherwise, if willing to drive some, I listened to them at Atlantic Stereo in Costa Mesa. They almost only carry Dynaudio for speakers. Sunfire and Krell amps. An ok place, not the best showroom I've seen by any means. Didn't buy any Dynaudio's but they sounded very, very good. Dealer didn't really seem to want to budge from msrp, so I ordered elsewhere.

Oops no sorry, I mean Torrance, Redondo Beach area. Thanks anyways.

Head down to theAudioArchitect.com in San Diego. Great place to do business with. I purchased on JL F113 from him, and can't wait to get my second.

Michael

Thanks guys, I went to Systems Design Group in Redondo Beach and got a great demo of the F113. It was incredible. I ended up buying the F112. I can't believe the quality of this sub. It sounds fantastic and matches perfectly with my piano black Ascend Sierras.

Anybody want to buy a HSU VTF-3 HO?

How funny,

I was just planning a trip to go back to The System Design Group to finally order a B&W ASW 855 to complement my 803D/HTM2D setup. However, I am now contemplating changing this decision after recently discovering and reading all of this thread, and instead ordering a F113.

The only hesitation I have is that I will be unable (for aesthetic reasons) to put the f113 up front with my other three speakers as I would have with the ASW855, because the finish would look so out of place. So, I would have to place it 4 feet behind my seating position at the back of the room (which is 14'X17').

The question I have for any and all, is will I experience any issues with localization by placing the sub in this position so close to my seat and so far from the frontspeakers? I was planning on setting my crossover at 60 Hz.

Evan

Evan,

With a 60 hz crossover, its very unlikely that the F113 (or any other sub, for that matter) would be localizable when it comes to redirected bass.

What I'm a bit unclear about is when using such a low subwoofer crossover, if you truncate part of the LFE signal.

Thanks guys, I went to Systems Design Group in Redondo Beach and got a great demo of the F113.

Good store, it seems like. I just bought a used pre/pro from them and was treated pretty well. They hadn't gotten the JL Audio franchise then or I might have bought my 113 from them (assuming they were in the same ballpark price-wise), though I dunno that I would have wanted the added expense of shipping a Fathom 113 across the country. One thing's for sure, now that the 113s can be found for almost $1k under list, they are oh-so-tempting.

WOW!!! Where are you finding them for almost $1000 under list? That seems pretty incredible and almost unbelievable.

cool

WOW!!! Where are you finding them for almost $1000 under list? That seems pretty incredible and almost unbelievable.

I guess just PM me and I'll forward the info where I got mine -- I'm not sure how much, but apparently JL Audio is raising prices after June 1st.

I'm picking up the 113 tomorrow, as a matter of fact. Funny part is, the room it's going into is still unfinished -- I just figured I'd better snap one up while the getting was good. But I'm going to lend it to my neighbor, dropping it into his very mass-fi HT system. Something tells me he'll be looking to spend a lot of money when I repossess it and he has to go back to whatever $200 sub it is he's using... LOL.

i wonder why JL gave the gotham less power per driver than the 113

especially since the gotham is using larger drivers

Maybe they were concerned about the current draw from the wall socket.

How funny,

I was just planning a trip to go back to The System Design Group to finally order a B&W ASW 855 to complement my 803D/HTM2D setup. However, I am now contemplating changing this decision after recently discovering and reading all of this thread, and instead ordering a F113.

The only hesitation I have is that I will be unable (for aesthetic reasons) to put the f113 up front with my other three speakers as I would have with the ASW855, because the finish would look so out of place. So, I would have to place it 4 feet behind my seating position at the back of the room (which is 14'X17').

The question I have for any and all, is will I experience any issues with localization by placing the sub in this position so close to my seat and so far from the frontspeakers? I was planning on setting my crossover at 60 Hz.

Evan

You really can't put it up front? Black, imo, is a color that tends to match easily. 2nd question: HT only/primarily? If so, I think you will be distracted enough by the movie to perhaps not notice. It also depends on your ears. I believe 60hz is still localizable, and to use someone else's words, crossovers are not brick walls.

The lowest string on a guitar is just slightly over 80hz. If I played that in a room, your head would jerk immediately to the source. 60hz is just a 'fourth' below that (or 5 frets lower), and, imo, is still quite localizable. The whole THX recommended 80hz thing, it seems, has been somewhat misleading at times. I dunno, fwiw, nice gear btw!

Maybe they were concerned about the current draw from the wall socket.

Questions regarding wall sockets. My dealer recently recommended unplugging my amp from my Monster HTS 3500mk2, and going directly to the wall for best possible current draw. Now that makes me wonder if my sub should do the same. I haven't done so yet with either, but am planning on trying it with the amp. Comments?

You really can't put it up front? Black, imo, is a color that tends to match easily. 2nd question: HT only/primarily? If so, I think you will be distracted enough by the movie to perhaps not notice. It also depends on your ears. I believe 60hz is still localizable, and to use someone else's words, crossovers are not brick walls.

The lowest string on a guitar is just slightly over 80hz. If I played that in a room, your head would jerk immediately to the source. 60hz is just a 'fourth' below that (or 5 frets lower), and, imo, is still quite localizable. The whole THX recommended 80hz thing, it seems, has been somewhat misleading at times. I dunno, fwiw, nice gear btw!

No, unfortunately it definitely would not work upfront between the other speakers and the wood credenza that all have a similar wood finish. It's in a multiuse room so design constraints must be taken into consideration with sonics.

It will be used both as my main music system, as well as my home theater. I am an audiophile first and foremost, HT is not my primary concern. What you are describing is my worst fear. I am not sure how to proceed. What if I set the crossovers at 50 Hz?

Thanks for your replies guys!

Evan

I see.

My friend, you have some very fine Full-Range speakers. I have decided to drop the sub for 2-ch music setup. I DID try the sub out since I already had it (attempted cancellation of sub order did not work). I am very pleased as is. My sub is now just an overkill HT sub. Not that there is too much to glean from this attached thread I started, but I was about to start pulling my hair out... I believe you do not need a sub with those speakers for music listening.


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=851017

The lowest string on a guitar is just slightly over 80hz. If I played that in a room, your head would jerk immediately to the source. 60hz is just a 'fourth' below that (or 5 frets lower), and, imo, is still quite localizable.

Sorry, but when you say "the lowest string on a guitar is just slightly over 80 Hz", you are failing to mention an important fact about "the lowest string on a guitar", or really any musical instrument you care to mention that plays notes in the same range (piano, tuba, whatever).

Please reconsider your comments in view of the omitted fact :)

What you are describing is my worst fear. I am not sure how to proceed. What if I set the crossovers at 50 Hz?

I think you'll be surprised. Lots of people with excellent ears cannot locate a true 80hz tone's source in an ordinary room. Try it and see what you find.

I think you'll be surprised. Lots of people with excellent ears cannot locate a true 80hz tone's source in an ordinary room. Try it and see what you find.

Exactly. What most people are hearing are room resonances, cabinet resonances and distortion. If a driver does not exhibit any of these characteristics or you can eliminate them then most people cannot localize an 80hz tone.

the gotham is really starting to peak my interests

i can't find a gotham thread so i guess i'll ask a few technical questions here

how man slave units can you link?

when in slave mode, can you still control the phase

not that i really need to know but are both drivers sharing the same air? and are they wired in parallel or series and what kind of load is the amp seeing? i'm just a very curious person

I wrote a few messages above,



Please reconsider your comments in view of the omitted fact :)

... which is that the sound of a note played by a musical instrument is not merely the fundamental (80 Hz), but rather the fundamental and harmonics together, 80 Hz + 160 Hz + 240 Hz + 320 Hz + 400 Hz + 480 Hz + 560 Hz + 640 Hz + 720 Hz + (and on and on) in this example. The harmonic content is the main reason we can hear differences in the sound of different instruments that are playing the same note, although dynamics (rise and decay times) also has a role in identification of musical sounds.

In case of an 80 Hz (fundamental frequency) musical note, localization (our ability to sense the direction that the sound came from "by hearing alone") is due primarily to the harmonic content. In an audio system with a subwoofer, set up for bass management with 80 Hz crossover, the 80 Hz fundamental will be played partly by the sub and partly by the other (main and surround) speakers; 160 Hz and all higher harmonics will be played entirely by the main and surround speakers (this assumes a steep low-pass filter to the sub; 4th order is standard on modern bass management systems). Therefore, our localization of the source of the 80 Hz note will be determined by the main and surround speakers.

the gotham is really starting to peak my interests

i can't find a gotham thread so i guess i'll ask a few technical questions here

how man slave units can you link?

Up to ten, maybe more.

when in slave mode, can you still control the phase

No. Only the master's phase control is active... if you want to have individual phase control you need to y-connect multiple units set to "master".

not that i really need to know but are both drivers sharing the same air?

Yes.

and are they wired in parallel or series

Parallel

and what kind of load is the amp seeing?

A complex one.

i'm just a very curious person

not a problem.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

I wrote a few messages above,



... which is that the sound of a note played by a musical instrument is not merely the fundamental (80 Hz), but rather the fundamental and harmonics together, 80 Hz + 160 Hz + 240 Hz + 320 Hz + 400 Hz + 480 Hz + 560 Hz + 640 Hz + 720 Hz + (and on and on) in this example. The harmonic content is the main reason we can hear differences in the sound of different instruments that are playing the same note, although dynamics (rise and decay times) also has a role in identification of musical sounds.

In case of an 80 Hz (fundamental frequency) musical note, localization (our ability to sense the direction that the sound came from "by hearing alone") is due primarily to the harmonic content. In an audio system with a subwoofer, set up for bass management with 80 Hz crossover, the 80 Hz fundamental will be played partly by the sub and partly by the other (main and surround) speakers; 160 Hz and all higher harmonics will be played entirely by the main and surround speakers (this assumes a steep low-pass filter to the sub; 4th order is standard on modern bass management systems). Therefore, our localization of the source of the 80 Hz note will be determined by the main and surround speakers.

Sure, sure, of course. The first post of yours that you just referenced did leave me plenty confused. Yes, I used to choose my musical instruments with more harmonic coloration, but as my skills progressed, I went towards instruments that were more fundamental and clear in their sonic presentation. Necessary for conveying counterpoint with any success, imho. In addition to your points made, there will also be attack and/or the particular harmonics of any individual articulation, even perhaps difficult to perceive sounds such as the horsehair of a bow's friction against a string, of course this always depends on the particular instrument.

Still, if you play the low E on a guitar, I can easily make out the fundamental. Surely any additional harmonics will only make it that much easier to localize, but the fundamental, for all of my perceptions, is still very localizable, in my experience. Now I can't quite sing down to the E, with great strain an F, and comfortably an F#. Still, if you play the note, I can "sing" the pitch mentally and know were its coming from. Again, for my auto-perceived experiences. Maybe I am fooling myself?

Another point in this side discussion about localization is how x-overs are not brick walls. 4th order/steep x-overs must be nice to have. I do not have a bass mgmt unit (I use my pre/pro's, not even the sub's steeper 24db/8ve, in order to blend my center channel). I do not know if I will ever get one. We'll see. As my stuff is all new, I am not sure where future upgrades and purchases may lie, but Im thinking of other components first. Ok, I really digressed, but at a typical 12db/8ve slope that many of us consumers use, we may find ourselves hearing plenty of frequencies that indeed are localizable. Or, perhaps not, as you may or may not imply or suggest.

Holy cow!!!

I think I'm in love, what a magnificent experience. I bought an f113 after an incredible demo, and I have just spent the past two hours in sonic bliss. I started with a Telarc SACD sample disk (#1) and thought I died and went to heaven. I then moved onto Steely Dan (two against nature) on DVD Audio, and I am now quite beside myself.

It has opened up my entire listening room into a large sense of space. My B&W's are just singing. I do not have a powerful enough amp to fully do them justice, and both my amp and speakers seem very happy to not have to concern themselves with the low end. I currently have the crossover set at 60 Hz and I think I am letting go of any paranoia regarding localization of the sub, and I am just enjoying the music now. The sub is so ludicrously powerful that I have had to set the reference output at 50% below the zero mark. I may still turn it down a bit more.

Although I am going to have a terribly difficult time putting away the high-rez music, tonight will definitely be movie night. I doubt I am going to see any sunshine this long weekend.

Thanks again for all your input gentlemen, much appreciated!

Evan

evanfew, what was your previous sub?

Up to ten, maybe more.



No. Only the master's phase control is active... if you want to have individual phase control you need to y-connect multiple units set to "master".



Yes.



Parallel



A complex one.



not a problem.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

thank you very much :D

evanfew, what was your previous sub?

2 x NHT B5 modules (12") powered by A1 amp/X1 crossover. It was part of a disassembled NHT T5 system that I will now sell to help pay for this puppy. I only used it for HT.

thanks evanfew

What is the best and easiest way to set the phase on the JL F113. I still can't get happy with this sub.

The corner sounds good, but bad null at 40, move to other corner loose the null for the most part, get much more bass that I can feel, but it sounds muddy.

Any help?

Michael

Michael ... In the corner in which the null "goes away", have you calibrated the subwoofer to level match your system then run the ARO ?

In Robert Harley's article prefacing his review of the 113, a couple of months ago in the Absolute Sound he described an interesting method for setting phase: Invert the phase of BOTH you main speakers, sit in you primary listening position, and have a partner dial the phase control on the sub until you hear the least full bass in the crossover region.

Then switch both speakers back into phase -- and you're golden.

"muddy"? :confused:

I can't imagine how a properly functioning Fathom could be described as muddy. I have dealt with peaks and nulls at various frequencies and placements and now have the Fathom in the corner. The corner provides a significant boost to the low frequencies but the sub remains tight and controlled for both movies and music. This is true regardless of my having ARO engaged or not.

I'm thinking there may be a mechanical problem with your Fathom.

Any sub can sound "muddy" under the right, or should I say wrong acoustic conditions. The f113 is no exception. This may have nothing to do with the quality or working conditon of the sub. It could be all do to the surroundings or placement.

A muddy sounding Fathom!? JL Audio's Fathom lineup is very far from muddy,boomy or colored,to the contrary they are defined and have the ability to dig deep.

There is something wrong with the setup,sub or both. A muddy Fathom f112 or f113...not normal.

What is the best and easiest way to set the phase on the JL F113. I still can't get happy with this sub.

The corner sounds good, but bad null at 40, move to other corner loose the null for the most part, get much more bass that I can feel, but it sounds muddy.

Any help?

Michael

Michael,

Sounds like in correcting one problem, another problem came up.

In order to do you any good, you'll need to tell us room size, where you're sitting and where the sub is located.

For those of you who have listened to both the F112 and F113 would you say they pretty much sound the same with the F113 able to play a little louder? I just got the F112 and I live in an apartment. It sounds fantastic and I honestly don't think I need any more. How much of a difference is there between the two?

For those of you who have listened to both the F112 and F113 would you say they pretty much sound the same with the F113 able to play a little louder? I just got the F112 and I live in an apartment. It sounds fantastic and I honestly don't think I need any more. How much of a difference is there between the two?


We need something like a subwoofer patch that we can wear to help keep us from buying/upgrading subwoofers.

But until then, no point in torturing yourself. Go ahead and make the swap.

LOL, if they were the same price I would. I guess I'm just thinking in the future, if I would be better served by adding another F112, or getting the F113 instead.

I'm about to pull the trigger on an F113 and I'm getting cold feet. This will replace an M&K V125 in about a 3500 ft3 room open to about 2000 ft3 kitchen, with no room treatments (yet). Can I expect a significant improvement, or just subtle?

LOL, yes, HUGE improvement.

LOL, if they were the same price I would. I guess I'm just thinking in the future, if I would be better served by adding another F112, or getting the F113 instead.

Higher output = one 113.

Smoother response in multiple seats = two 112's

For me, if the 112 was 50% less than the 113, I would have gotten two 112's -- no doubt about it. But the price difference is only 20% so I went for the larger one.

I'm taking a stab in the dark, but have read the rumors of a new, smaller JLAudio sub appearing this year. I *might* sell my single 113, and get two of those smaller subs, assuming that most of what one loses is some output -- but what I gain is smoother response in multiple seats -- if the incremental price of two 110's is not much higher than what a lightly used, mint condition 113 will fetch, used.

you also lose extension, right?

Ya, from what I've heard, the F113 has about 1hz lower extension than the F112 and the F110 will be another hz or two less than the F112.

I've read test reports but cannot find the details right now, but no, I don't recall that: between the 113 and 112, the only significant difference I recall was output, not extension.

I would encourage all to read Kal's latest ramblings on this extraordinary sub from "Music In The Round" #24 in Stereophile . His earlier reports of personal experience with this rather extraordinary device were very much at the heart of my decision to purchase one for myself. I had been intending on listening to some Saint-Saens as the ultimate test, but I only have it on LP, and no longer have a way to play it in this form. I can't imagine what it will be like to have an organ in my living room. I can't wait.

I had really intended on finishing my system with a matching B&W Sub. However, I am so very pleased with my what has ended up being my ultimate choice. This is one very musical Sub!

Evan

P.S.

I finally ended up watching a movie; the latest James Bond flick. What a cinematic disappointment, a psychotic, joyless and castrated hero, in a lifeless rampage with hardly any subsonic action (although one explosion actually made the pants move on my leg) . What did they do to Bond!

i think even the JL audio manual quotes a lower f3 on the f112
(20hz on the 112, 19hz on the 113)

P.S.

I finally ended up watching a movie; the latest James Bond flick. What a cinematic disappointment, a psychotic, joyless and castrated hero, in a lifeless rampage with hardly any subsonic action (although one explosion actually made the pants move on my leg) . What did they do to Bond!

I think you're in the minority on this take!

We are about to publish some more specific FR specs for the three models. I'll share them here since there is some interest in the differences between f112, f113 and the Gotham:

Fathom f112:
Freq. Response (anechoic): 21 Hz – 119 Hz (± 1.5 dB)
–3 dB at 19 Hz / 150 Hz
–10 dB at 17 Hz / 167 Hz

Fathom f113:
Freq. Response (anechoic): 20 Hz – 86 Hz (± 1.5 dB)
–3 dB at 18 Hz / 127 Hz
–10 dB at 16 Hz / 154 Hz

Gotham g213:
Freq. Response (anechoic): 19 Hz – 87 Hz (± 1.5 dB)
–3 dB at 17 Hz / 127 Hz
–10 dB at 15 Hz / 152 Hz

The difference in low-frequency extension between f112 and f113 is very minor, but the difference in high-frequency extension isn't, with the advantage going to the f112. This may or may not be important, depending on the application. I personally run a pair of f112's in stereo in my home system and I feel no urge to upgrade.

Thanks for posting that. Too soon to post the f110 figures? :)

Is it true that MSRP for the Fathoms are going up June 1?

Is it true that MSRP for the Fathoms are going up June 1?

I heard that also. Anybody else?

I had been intending on listening to some Saint-Saens as the ultimate test, but I only have it on LP, and no longer have a way to play it in this form. I can't imagine what it will be like to have an organ in my living room. I can't wait.

Is it the 3rd sym, maybe with Bernstein+NY ? :D

You can try looking to Bach and Buxtehude for baroque, and Franck and Martin for some more contemporary works. Well, thats what I have...

[QUOTE=jostenmeat]Is it the 3rd sym, maybe with Bernstein+NY ? :D

How did you know, Bernstien rules!

Scaido:

My dealer did tell me that the prices are about to go up$200-$300. I guess all the positive reviews have increased demand.

Yes, pricing is going up on June 1st.

Nathan,
We will post f110 FR figures when we have tested actual production units. You can expect a bit more of a difference than between the f113 and f112 on the low-end, but I don't have exact numbers yet.

So the difference between the f113 and f112 on the botton is very small? In a bigger room 2-112 or 2 113? what would you notice...anything?

I think that small difference referred to is in the low end extension. Correct me if I'm wrong, Manville, but I suspect the difference in overall output may be larger.

bingo

So the difference between the f113 and f112 on the botton is very small? In a bigger room 2-112 or 2 113? what would you notice...anything?
While the difference in FR may be slight, the difference in total SPL output is not reflected in these numbers. At higher SPL's, compression comes into play.

Manville, how much more total output at the lowest frequencies will the F113 have than the F112? I can't imagine that a smaller driver with 1000 fewer watts will have close to the same SPL output at 18 Hz as a larger driver with the extra 1 kilowatts.

Thanks.

Craig

PS. My F112 has plenty of output!

The f113 has around 3dB more output capability than the f112 (both in terms of distortion-limited and absolute maximum). The FR figures simply represent relative energy across each subwoofer's response range.

Craig... my f112's are plenty loud, too. :)

I am torn between the F113 and the F112.. I've heard that there will also be a price jump soon too.. I'm afraid that if I get the F112 I won't be satisfied.. my room is a whopping 1375 cuft (:)). What do you guys think?

Spezzy,

Since you describe yourself as an upgradeitis infected guy, is there really any choice? :)

Seriously, be sure that you give these subs a listen. Just like any subwoofer, taste vary and it may or may not be what you want.

Spezzy,

As before, in your room size, I don't think you'll be able to tell the difference. Sympathetic vibrations in the room (shakin' the walls down) will most likely be your limitation before power from either unit.

If you buy the f113 , you won't be second guessing yourself to death though. ;)

P.S. I thought you had switched over to a DIY approach?

Get the f113,3dB more output is not something to ignore. I use three JL's,a few more subs and soon some giant DIY in a 800cu ft room(probably 600cu ft left). :p

Now that is headroom maximus.

Get the f113,3dB more output is not something to ignore. I use three JL's,a few more subs and soon some giant DIY in a 800cu ft room(probably 600cu ft left). :p

Now that is headroom maximus.

I have been told that at +3db is near twice as loud in terms of volume. Have I been misled?

I have been told that at +3db is near twice as loud in terms of volume. Have I been misled?

Not true. 10 db is perceived as twice the volume. 3 db is equivalent to double the power.

Not true. 10 db is perceived as twice the volume. 3 db is equivalent to double the power.

OK, thanks for the correction. That may have been my confusion. So you need twice the power to achieve +3db.

You need the eqivalent of twice the power. In this case when comparing the f113 and the f112, the f113 has more power, though less than double, and a bigger driver to move more air. The combination adds up to +3 db.

OK, thanks for the correction. That may have been my confusion. So you need twice the power to achieve +3db.
Right. That's why I always laugh at newbie guitar players discussing 50W and 100W amps, and they think the 100W will be a lot louder.

To anyone on the fence about getting the f112 or f113: if finances aren't a problem, and your listening room isn't a closet, get the f113. I felt it had much more impact and drive than the 112 when I demo'd the two separately in my home theater. And you'll never wonder if you sold yourself short. Go big or go home, I always say. :D

Right. That's why I always laugh at newbie guitar players discussing 50W and 100W amps, and they think the 100W will be a lot louder.

To anyone on the fence about getting the f112 or f113: if finances aren't a problem, and your listening room isn't a closet, get the f113. I felt it had much more impact and drive than the 112 when I demo'd the two separately in my home theater. And you'll never wonder if you sold yourself short. Go big or go home, I always say. :D

Along with that, I might add that if you have smaller speakers as mains, perhaps dual F112 is better due to the enhanced linearity in the all important 80-100hz range that can be weak or lost in the smaller bookshelf, and nonexistant in the microspeakers.

After reading all of the glowing reviews about JL Audio products, I auditioned the Fathom today, all ready and excited, and really ready to buy one. I am in the process of upgrading my system (likely moving from NHT Super Ones to Thiel 1.6s or Powerpoints) and getting a new subwoofer (from an old NHT SW1 to the Fathom 13).

While musical performance was excellent, I wanted to hear a movie soundtrack, and in this respect, the performance poor. Bass was boomy, was just loud, and the dealer kept trying to adjust it. He knew it didn't sound good, and then indicated that perhaps it was not calibrated correctly. He then pointed out that prices were going up on the unit, that musical performance was a better reflection of the subwoofer, and that it really was just a calibration error.

I was very disappointed. I wanted to like the JL Audio, but the system (it was paired with Magnapan speakers) just seemed boomy and having no coherent "oomph". Explosions sound alright, but did not have that "theater" impact. I previously had listened to a DD-15, along with B&W speakers (expensive ones) and in listening to Pirates of the Carribean, felt the impact of the cannons.

I supposed I should give the JL another chance, but would a poor calibration really make that much difference? It made me wonder about the dealer--and unfortunately, he's the only one near where I live.

Thoughts? Ideas for a reaudition?

Thanks.

boo,

You experience sounds very similar to mine. I blew off buying a F113 until I can find another demo. I'll probably wait until there are more dealers around where its not such an ordeal getting a demo.

Having kept up with this thread from the beginning, its very likely that the F113 wasn't calibrated right. Seems that the F113 is more sensitive to proper intergration. Does make you wonder if other subwoofers were equally intergrated (presuming it was done right), how much better they would sound.

Boosaman.

I'll second what JimP said. It took me 4 separate trips to 2 different dealers before I was reasonably impressed by the fathom 113. Got it home and hooked it up to my system (older Thiel CS 3's). It took a couple of days to get it in the right place in the room and the crossover and settings correct. Now I don't give the purchase a second thought (other than jealousy over those who got TWO of these beasts). It's great on music and HT. I think you'll be happy. :)

Some dealers just don't seem to be able to set them up to show them off to their fullest potential.

I'll agree with the previous two posters. It's a phenomenal product that sounds like it hasn't gotten a proper setup. With that being said, you have to judge it with your own ears, and hopefully in the listening room where it will be installed. And in the end, if it doesn't put a smile on your face, then it's not the right sub for you. Good luck.

I never demoed the JL product, but purchased it anyway. Perhaps a dangerous and risky buy at that time, but I took into consideration the expertise of many of the guys on here and took a risk that turned into a windfall of audio pleasure.

I respect anyone who has the attitude of "Show Me" and then I'll believe it. That makes good common sense. However, when the sun sets and I am able to sit down and enjoy the JL113, I am never disappointed. One of the best audio purchases I've ever made. Small footprint, excellent sound quality, built like a tank, attractive, powerful and a very balanced piece of audio equipment for HT and music.

Charles

I am torn between the F113 and the F112.. I've heard that there will also be a price jump soon too.. I'm afraid that if I get the F112 I won't be satisfied.. my room is a whopping 1375 cuft (:)). What do you guys think?

i would wait and get 4 gothams


:D

I concur with the other positive posts here. I actually heard the f113 in a demo before purchase and it is definitely one of the best investments I have ever made,...because I don't change equipment very often. Take the time to set it up properly and you will be rewarded.

We are about to publish some more specific FR specs for the three models. I'll share them here since there is some interest in the differences between f112, f113 and the Gotham:

Fathom f112:
Freq. Response (anechoic): 21 Hz – 119 Hz (± 1.5 dB)
–3 dB at 19 Hz / 150 Hz
–10 dB at 17 Hz / 167 Hz

Fathom f113:
Freq. Response (anechoic): 20 Hz – 86 Hz (± 1.5 dB)
–3 dB at 18 Hz / 127 Hz
–10 dB at 16 Hz / 154 Hz

Gotham g213:
Freq. Response (anechoic): 19 Hz – 87 Hz (± 1.5 dB)
–3 dB at 17 Hz / 127 Hz
–10 dB at 15 Hz / 152 Hz

The difference in low-frequency extension between f112 and f113 is very minor, but the difference in high-frequency extension isn't, with the advantage going to the f112. This may or may not be important, depending on the application. I personally run a pair of f112's in stereo in my home system and I feel no urge to upgrade.

Wow, the high-frequency extension makes me wonder if I made a mistake on the F113. However, my speakers are THX ultra 2's so they are supposed to have 80Hz crossover and the F113 sounds just fine.

Chris.

i would wait and get 4 gothams


:D

Hehheeh Unfortunately I just talked to my dealer, and he told me that they are looking at a price increase of the Gothem to @ 11K....

and the Fathom F113 is looking at about $3600-$3700.. diff. finish...

Question,.... What is the Low Freq. that the F113 has been measured at...?

Looking for low estension...

Wow, the high-frequency extension makes me wonder if I made a mistake on the F113. However, my speakers are THX ultra 2's so they are supposed to have 80Hz crossover and the F113 sounds just fine.

Chris.

Chris, keep in mind that the 86 Hz figure is at a +/- 1.5 dB tolerance. Using a more conventional -3dB figure the upper cutoff is 127 Hz on the f113.

I know this is the Fathom thread but I had to comment on my recent JL purchase, I just received a JL 13W7 yesterday and man its a beautiful woofer! lol , cant wait to install it in my car next week (waiting on amp to arrive). some pics I took: Link (http://ded.zenblue.net/13W7/)

Nice photos, but next time you might want to use a more authentic-looking CD as the size reference ;)

Also I missed those witty comments on the JL boxes at the Miramar factory tour. Hopefully it does actually convince people not to dispose the packing materials.

what ever happened to that square sub JL came out with a few years back?

Nice photos, but next time you might want to use a more authentic-looking CD as the size reference ;)

Good point ,I fixed it :)

As Glenn states, early units had their reference sensitivity calibrated to AES standards. This resulted in some users complaining of insufficient gain, so we raised the sensitivity by +10dB.

It should be noted that even the early low-gain units will work just fine with almost any prepro, you just have to dial up the prepro's sub output level a bit more than with other subs.

Manville,

I am a newbie when it comes to audio equipment, but I did recently purchase a new f113.

I think that my f113 is one of the early production units (26 November 2006 production date). So my newbie question is: in order to compensate for the lower built-in gain and achieve the same base (or bass, if you will) performance of recent production units, do I simply increase my prepro's sub output level by an equivalent +10dB?

Now perhaps a more intelligent question: would a difference in built-in gain be problematic for a master/slave setup comprised of one early production unit (lower built-in gain) and one recent production unit (higher built-in gain)? (Not that I will probably ever need or even be able afford such a setup.)

Also, I note that the driver surround material of my speaker is black, as opposed to the grey color I see in recent pictures of the f113 (as with the JL Audio factory tour photos, for example.) Is this a tell-tale indicator which can be used to distinguish an early production unit (lower built-in gain) from a more recent production unit (higher built-in gain)? And are there any other notable f113 evolutionary changes so far across its short production life?

Hamel,

The only way to tell for sure is for you to e-mail me the serial number and let me look at the production logs to see which revision your subwoofer falls into. I'll also ask one of the engineers for an answer on the master/slave gain issue.

As for using an older "AES spec" unit, you can raise the pre-pros subwoofer gain if you need more gain... there is no problem with doing that. Another simple trick is to apply a y-adaptor to the inputs of the sub so that both left and right are receiving signal... this will give you +6dB over using a single input.

As for the surround color... it only appears gray when you hit it with a flash... we haven't ever changed the color, which is a deep charcoal gray.

E-mail me your serial number and I will be happy to do the detective work.

Best regards, and thank you for choosing a JL Audio subwoofer.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Hi Manville, I have a question about my new F112 that I just purchased. I've noticed that there is a slight mechanical noise that the subwoofer makes even with nothing hooked up to it, just power. It almost sounds like a little motor or something inside. It is only noticeable if I put my ear within 6 inches of the woofer. Is this normal?

Also I am curious as to how difficult it would be to replace the front cover of the subwoofer. Not the grill, but the actual front face plate that goes around the woofer. I've noticed that mine has some imperfections in the piano black finish. Would this be expensive?

Other than these little things I am really happy with the F112. It sounds fantastic!

Thanks

A very low level hum when you place your ear close to the driver is normal. It shouldn't sound like a rattle though.

As for the cover panel, this is replaceable but requires special tools to reattach with the proper torque. If yours has imperfections, I would contact your dealer to see about a warranty replacement.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

is it hard to stack the 113's ?

i like to use spikes for stacking but some sub tops are not made for spikes

is it hard to stack the 113's ?

i like to use spikes for stacking but some sub tops are not made for spikes

DO not use any spikes,I stacked the f112 on top of the f113. Works well,I use a hard rubber/compressed foam pad so there is no sliding during violent cone excursions.

Is it hard to stack...no. The rubber legs are very much inside,not near the corners on the Fathom subs.


I have to stack ...to many subs.Even then I am running out of space.

Ear,

I've been looking for something to go between my stacked subs.

What exactly did you use?

Ear,

I've been looking for something to go between my stacked subs.

What exactly did you use?


Compressed foam pads from the dollar store! LOL Yes and they work wonders.

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/8874/p1030898ok6.th.jpg (http://img106.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1030898ok6.jpg)

Here below the woofer you see the pad in question... I purchased 10 and have cut then to fit under my JL's and Paradigm stacked subs. When used one piled over the other they also act like cheapo sub insulation platforms.

DO not use any spikes,I stacked the f112 on top of the f113. Works well,I use a hard rubber/compressed foam pad so there is no sliding during violent cone excursions.

Is it hard to stack...no. The rubber legs are very much inside,not near the corners on the Fathom subs.


I have to stack ...to many subs.Even then I am running out of space.

when you say "any spikes", do you mean for the top subs?

what about spiking just the bottom subs?

So i went to L & M home entertainment (LMCHE com) to check out the F113. Walking in I was simply floored by what they had in this store. McIntosh ams,speakers, etc along with several other extremely high end manufacturers.

The room that was setup for with the single F113 was a fairly large room equiped with 4 McIntosh tower speakers at 7.1 feet each(90k/pair), mcIntosh amps, preamps, projector . watched a scene from the 5th element when lielu falls through bruce willas' cab and the police chase them. The JL perfectly blended in with these speakers. I could not tell were the bass from the Fathom was coming from. It was truly an enjoyable experience. Speaker with the owner, they stop carrying the velodyne subs in favor of the Fathom. Had one Velo DD18 left that was a demo for sale at 2500. This room when completed (it was still being remodeled) will have 2 gothams and 2 fathoms.( i must go hear that!)

Oh yeah one more thing, he had a Gotham protype in the store. That is one impressive looking Sub. I took a pic with my phone camera. I'll post the image once I chance to get it off it.

Can anyone verify what the new MSRP is on the fathoms since the price increase on the 1st?

dynomike:
MSRP's effective June 1, 2007

f112 satin: $2700
f112 gloss: $2800

f113 satin: $3400
f113 gloss: $3500

So i went to L & M home entertainment (LMCHE com) to check out the F113. Walking in I was simply floored by what they had in this store. McIntosh ams,speakers, etc along with several other extremely high end manufacturers.

The room that was setup for with the single F113 was a fairly large room equiped with 4 McIntosh tower speakers at 7.1 feet each(90k/pair), mcIntosh amps, preamps, projector . watched a scene from the 5th element when lielu falls through bruce willas' cab and the police chase them. The JL perfectly blended in with these speakers. I could not tell were the bass from the Fathom was coming from. It was truly an anoyable experience. Speaker with the owner, they stop carrying the velodyne subs in favor of the Fathom. Had one Velo DD18 left that was a demo for sale at 2500. This room when completed (it was still being remodeled) will have 2 gothams and 2 fathoms.( i must go hear that!)

Oh yeah one more thing, he had a Gotham protype in the store. That is one impressive looking Sub. I took a pic with my phone camera. I'll post the image once I chance to get it off it.

I hope you mean an "enjoyable" experience?

I hope you mean an "enjoyable" experience?

You are correct in that. Was at work multitasking and lost track

dynomike:
MSRP's effective June 1, 2007

f112 satin: $2700
f112 gloss: $2800

f113 satin: $3400
f113 gloss: $3500


Any word on what the price of the F110 will be?

i'm really liking this whole slave/master idea

so you run rca's from the pre/pro to the master and from the master, you "daisy chain" the slaves with balanced cables?

god, this sounds like a bad s&m flick :)

The room that was setup for with the single F113 was a fairly large room equiped with 4 McIntosh tower speakers at 7.1 feet each(90k/pair),

I had the pleasure of hearing a pair of those Big Macs at a local dealer. There's nothing like multiple large woofers to give the sensation of effortless bass! :)

Even though the room wasn't perfect I was quite surprised with the smoothness of their bass - probably related to the use of multiple woofers.

Can't wait to see/hear the Gotham!!!! ;)

aduljr:
U.S. MSRP
f110 satin: $2000
f110 gloss: $2100

Will there ever be options for :
A) different wood
B) different color/ paint

From factory, not joes garage!

aduljr:
U.S. MSRP
f110 satin: $2000
f110 gloss: $2100

Hmmm. I could ALMOST justify the cost of two 110's instead of a single 113.

pengilly,

It is possible in the future, but there are no immediate plans for other finishes.

I need an f110.... :D When it is all said and done I will have dual f110's,f112's and f113's...getting close. :p

JL Audio makes the highest performing compact subs on the market. Fit and finish are first rate,keep up the good work JL.

I need an f110.... :D When it is all said and done I will have dual f110's,f112's and f113's...getting close. :p

JL Audio makes the highest performing compact subs on the market. Fit and finish are first rate,keep up the good work JL.

You need dual Gothams and dual Quad LMS-5400s in sealed enclosures with 2 QSC RMX-4050s for each enclosure. Now that sounds fun..

I need an f110.... :D When it is all said and done I will have dual f110's,f112's and f113's...getting close. :p

JL Audio makes the highest performing compact subs on the market. Fit and finish are first rate,keep up the good work JL.

Lol, id love to see a dual gotham, dual F113, dual F112, Dual 110 tower stack. It just look rediculous.

JL Audio makes the highest performing compact subs on the market. Fit and finish are first rate,keep up the good work JL.

funny how JL Audio went from making high school boys rice burners go boom to being the be all, end all of audiophile home subwoofers :D

funny how JL Audio went from making high school boys rice burners go boom to being the be all, end all of audiophile home subwoofers :D

Their car subs have nice sound quality, not just boom. I rarely have my 13W7s rattle my car, very impolite.

Their car subs have nice sound quality, not just boom. I rarely have my 13W7s rattle my car, very impolite.

just a little humor

i have 3 sealed JL 10's in my truck

:D You guys aren't all that different than the car audio guys. :D

:D You guys aren't all that different than the car audio guys. :D

i think you're right :D

except we do keep our pants up higher :D

Well I ordered my F113 today. I heard a demo of Toy Story 2 of all things and all I had to say was "OH MY GOD"...........I just could not believe only 1 subwoofer was producing that much "pressure" in the room, as it clearly moves alot of air. The sound was so natural and effortless. I just had to have it. I have been looking for a 3rd sub, currently I am using 2 Velodyne FSR15's in the front and 1 older M&K in the rear. The F113 will replace the M&K, just hope it blends with the FSR's otherwise I will just use the 113 or I might have to get another F113. Well see. Can't wait til Monday when I pick it up.....or should I say try to pick it up.

Can't wait til Monday when I pick it up.....or should I say try to pick it up.
Seriously, don't forget to bend at the knees. :D