I have never heard a hum from mine, so like that poster had a ground loop issue.

I had some minor issues with grounding in the beginning. Once they were sorted out there was only a slight hum with my head less than a foot from the woofer.

I'm renovating the room with an Equitech balanced power setup and hope to have a low noise floor with no hum since the room will be very quiet too.

I have never heard a hum from my F113.

I have never heard a hum from my F113.

Ditto here too.

What concerned me was the source of the quote (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=10353133&&#post10353133):

The isolated/grounded switch only affects the unbalanced inputs.

It is normal for there to be a very low level of hum with no signal applied, but it should only be audible inches from the sub, certainly not from the listening position. If this is what you are experiencing, I wouldn't worry about it.

If it's audible and annoying at the listening position, I would check to see if a different AC outlet or circuit has similar issues. Sometimes other things connected to a circuit can cause hum issues (fluorescent fixtures and dimmers are common culprits).

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.
I figure JL Audio would know. :confused:

Maybe in some systems with some power sources there is a hum. I never heard it with mine.

I have never heard a hum from mine, so like that poster had a ground loop issue.

Not necessarily. :eek:

One would have to determine if it was 60 Hz hum (a ground loop issue...);
120 Hz hum, which could be the transformer saturating, a problem with the so-called 60 cycle waveform purity (i.e. harmonic structure), or an issue with the power supply. The 120 Hz hum could manifest itself as the actual cone of the s peaker making noise OR it ould be a mechanical noise coming from inside the sub box, but since the speaker cone is rather acoustically transparent, it often SEEMS as if it's coming from the driver when its not.

There's also noise from fluorescent lights; (I'd show you a spectral analysis of this if I had a picture) dimmer/SCR/Triac/Quadrac noise; a problem where the 59.94 vertical interval signal beats against the 60 Hz of the powerline (and you hear a repeating phase sound every 14 seconds); and then there is the all-too-common problem of the TV Cable company "ground" being many volts off the AC "ground", and this usually shows up as a combination of 60, 120 and some higher audible harmonics as well

And in some / plenty of systems there may be a mix of these phenomena. Last but hardly least there is a common issue of a problem upstream, and the "hum" is fed into the sub on the input cable, and all he sub is doing is its job, namely to play audio, which just happens to include the hum components.

Barry

I don't think it's reasonable to expect a 2500 watt amplifier with its input gain turned up and no signal applied to be dead quiet when you are wearing a 13.5-inch woofer as a headphone. There will be some very low level noise when you put your ear up against the woofer in a quiet environment.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

When I first installed my pair of 113's there was an audible hum that could only be heard if you were within six inces of the subs. Now that I ran a new dedicated circuit it has to be dead silent in the room and my ear needs to be right on the sub for me to hear the slightest hum. Not sure what factor caused the change, but they both are very quiet untill they are called upon :D

I don't think it's reasonable to expect a 2500 watt amplifier with its input gain turned up and no signal applied to be dead quiet when you are wearing a 13.5-inch woofer as a headphone. There will be some very low level noise when you put your ear up against the woofer in a quiet environment.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.
Noise I can handle (to a certain degree); hum annoys me.

Way back in the day when I used to own a Carver M1.5t amp, I sold mine because their amps all generated a low level hiss in the speakers. Not good.

I do notice a very quiet hiss from my current Velodyne F1500R if I put my ear on the driver, but I'm concerned because I can pick up 60 Hz hum from across a room.

Of course, now I just have to get someone to contact me; I left email with the three dealers listed as JL Audio dealers in my area 48 hours ago, and I've yet to hear back from any of them.

(Mini-rant: Why is it so difficult for home theater dealers to respond to people? I had the same experience when I bought my Lexicon MC-8; Lexicon had to actually call a dealer on my behalf to get someone to return my phone calls. I firmly believe if a company doesn't want my money, I'm not going to force it on them. :confused: )

Mr. Smith from JL Audio has responded directly to your posts concerning hum. I don't believe you will get a more definitive response.
BTW I also do not have any issue with hum from my f113.

Kucharsk:

All I can recommend is that you visit a dealer and test it for yourself to see if it's in your range of acceptability.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Hum (ground loop) my Sunfire has.
Hum (of any sort) my f113 has not!

Set up, same.

No hum from my JL Audio subs,all good. :)

Mine's nice and quiet. I haven't had any issues.

Dead silent, when no signal is coming through...No hums....But the other day I switched XLR to RCA's cables b/c of an Avr trial, I heard some ground hums . Added a Y connector where both L/R outs are utilized noise all gone.

( Noise can happen with any sub)


Djoel

Any dealers for the f113 in Toronto, Canada? I can only find 1 but I'm sure there are more out there... Been to Kromer Radio already. Need your help guys. Thanks.

Mine are fine too.., no buzzing noises.

Any dealers for the f113 in Toronto, Canada? I can only find 1 but I'm sure there are more out there... Been to Kromer Radio already. Need your help guys. Thanks.

I bought my pair from a dealer in Kitchener with some help from Dave at Gem-Sen (the distributor). There weren't any dealers when I bought. PM me if you want more info.

I have had a JL F113 for a few months and just got a new SVS PCi Ultra 13' sub and have an older SVS with dual 12's.

Well when I got my new SVS I had to move my subs around and needed to recalibrate my JL F113.

To make a long story short, my cleaning lady or my wife threw away my mic and cable.

Does anyone know how much it would cost to get another?

troy

How do you throw away a mic? Piss off your wife?

I have had a JL F113 for a few months and just got a new SVS PCi Ultra 13' sub and have an older SVS with dual 12's.

Well when I got my new SVS I had to move my subs around and needed to recalibrate my JL F113.

To make a long story short, my cleaning lady or my wife threw away my mic and cable.

Does anyone know how much it would cost to get another?

troy


How is the ultra compared to the JL?

I have had a JL F113 for a few months and just got a new SVS PCi Ultra 13' sub and have an older SVS with dual 12's.

Well when I got my new SVS I had to move my subs around and needed to recalibrate my JL F113.

To make a long story short, my cleaning lady or my wife threw away my mic and cable.

Does anyone know how much it would cost to get another?

troy

Call Amy Turner at JL Audio: 1-888-JLAUDIO

She can help you get a replacement mic.

I'm going to cop out. They are both state of the art subs. The JL is a monster in terms of ouput and I've only had my new SVS for about 10 days. Seeing that I have 3 good subs in my home theater, I'm just waiting for my Anthem D2's room correction software to be announced at CEDIA and I'll be in heaven. I sold my Velodyne with SMS a few months ago and miss the ability to graph my low end response.

All I can say is that my movies sound great with all 3 subs, better than when I just had my F113 and the older SVS. The SVS is certainly comparable to the f113, at a much lower price, but at a much much lower WAF(wife acceptance factor).

Thanks Mr. Smith for the number, I left a message for Amy. I called my dealer and they said there wasn't a listing in their book for the mic and so they weren't sure they could get one. Thanks again,

troy

Call Amy Turner at JL Audio: 1-888-JLAUDIO

She can help you get a replacement mic.

Amy is awesome to work with, she is a great asset to JL.

Michael

Just got a call that my F113 is back from JL, installed the SMS-1 last night, so I can't wait to get home today, and play around.

The customer service at JL is like Nordstroms, they take very good care of the customer, and the communitication is top notch.

Michael

Just got a call that my F113 is back from JL,
Michael

Michael,

You may have answered my question somewhere else, but I'd like to know if JL found anything defective on the sub that you sent back to them?

Thank you,
Charles

Nope, fixed my stupid mistake only.

Michael

Michael,

You may have answered my question somewhere else, but I'd like to know if JL found anything defective on the sub that you sent back to them?

Thank you,
Charles

There is nothing wrong with the sub, so it is my room.

Michael,

Thanks for the info. I'd go after the new SVS. I think you will really like it. If I recall, you had an SVS before and were happy with it. The new box product after hearing what the cylinders are capable of should be a worthy consideration.

JL Audio congrats on the raving Stereophile review in Sept. issue...




On another note like what AVS done with the place, just takes a little getting use to:)


Djoel

Michael,

Thanks for the info. I'd go after the new SVS. I think you will really like it. If I recall, you had an SVS before and were happy with it. The new box product after hearing what the cylinders are capable of should be a worthy consideration.

I have the buyer picking up the sub next week, and need to decide if I want dual PB Plus/2 or PB13 Ultra's?

I really hoped the JL would come back with something, but it is one of those things that just doesn't work with my room, what a bummer.

Michael

I really hoped the JL would come back with something, but it is one of those things that just doesn't work with my room, what a bummer.

Michael

It would be interesting to really know why it doesn't work in your room and why somethingelse does.

It would be interesting to really know why it doesn't work in your room and why somethingelse does.


I figured we would talk about it on Sunday. I need to find the email from JL about my issue, where they say I need two subs.

I have the buyer picking up the sub next week, and need to decide if I want dual PB Plus/2 or PB13 Ultra's?

I really hoped the JL would come back with something, but it is one of those things that just doesn't work with my room, what a bummer.

Michael

Michael,

I am glad you found a buyer for the JL. :)

It's a bummer that the purchase did not work out for you as the JL is a fine performer in a compact box, is well built, looks classy and has excellent SQ. Things happen for reasons.

Considering the cost of one JL versus purchasing 2 SVS's which seems what you need to fill your room, unless size of the box was a strong consideration, it's a path to follow IMO. The SVS appears like it will be a great subwoofer. However, that doesn't surprise me in the least.

It really does not matter what you purchase, as long as you are happy with the cost and the output. Both companies are at the top of their game.

Charles

I agree with Charles. I'm glad to hear you were able to sell the JL but sorry to hear it couldn't work in your room. That's always a tough situation. Good luck with your future purchase. I think that's one of the best parts of our hobby. How often do you get to shop for new stuff? :D

I just received my F112 240v this morning:), one of the fist few shipped to the UK.
I connected it to my 2-channel rig and tried it with music for a couple of hours before going to work. I also run the ARO which worked very well in a couple of minutes and reduced a mode that I coul clearly hear before.
I have a Behringer DEQ2496 which can do RTA sending pink noise and displaying the frequency chart; it also has a 16 bands PEQ, but I am not sure if I am going to need it.
Next week I will be doing some serious room treatment, so I will wait for that before doing any real calibration.
The first impression with music was very good: the bass seem to integrate very well with my Gallo ref3II and I can hear an excellent texture in the low frequencies.
Tomorrow morning I will connect the sub to my home theatre rig and will play with it a bit more (I will probably take the day off from work:D)

Welcome to the F113 club, enjoy!

To replace the one my cleaning lady threw away. My wife emphatically denies "touching anything in your stereo room."

I spoke to Amy earlier today and she's going to take care of everything. How's that for customer service.

Thanks JL and Amy.

BTW, I have no hum from my f113 and I run a 25 ft RCA coaxial to the sub.


Troy

To replace the one my cleaning lady threw away. My wife emphatically denies "touching anything in your stereo room."

WHOA! Did you just call your wife "my cleaning lady?"

glennQ

No,

I have a cleaning lady that I surmised threw away my mic and cable. It was sitting on the floor in my HT room. My wife always picks up things and puts them away so I figured it was one of them. I know better than to call my wife "the cleaning lady" :)

troy

I have an extra one from JL, so if some throws it away let me know.

Michael

It would be interesting to really know why it doesn't work in your room and why somethingelse does.

Curtis,

Any interest in coming over this weekend, and seeing if you have any luck, maybe we can get SanJay over also.

Michael

Hey Anthem, I thought you sold the F113 already, no?

Curtis,

Any interest in coming over this weekend, and seeing if you have any luck, maybe we can get SanJay over also.

Michael
Thanks Michael, but this weekend is a no go for me. Maybe Labor Day weekend?

Hey Anthem, I thought you sold the F113 already, no?


It is sold, but the buyer isn't picking it up until later in September at this point.

Michael

Hey Anthem, I thought you sold the F113 already, no?

Double Post!

I spoke to Amy earlier today and she's going to take care of everything. How's that for customer service.



Have to dig through my JL paperwork to find the number but if anyone has it handy, it'd allow me to skip a step! I just noticed a small hole in the cloth at the top left corner of the baffle. My 113 is in a limited access section of the room, so either it happened in transit and I didn't notice when I set it up (it's small), or I did it getting it out of the box while setting it up and didn't notice. I honestly can't say. Might as well call and see what a new one would cost.

Aaron

888-JLAUDIO (toll-free and easy to remember). :)

BTW, the JL Home Audio website has been updated with lots of new product images and a behind the scenes look at the production of Gothams and Fathoms (clickable from the main page).

I see specs for the f110 are up. Is it shipping yet?

We expect to ship the f110 in Jan or Feb. 2008.

I have been trying to set up my F112 for movies, but I fried one of my power amps:(, so I am only using it for music ATM.

I have a question, maybe someone can help me:
at the moment my sub is at the right of my speakers, very close to the right main speaker; my speakers woofers fire to the side, so the sub is right on the line of fire of my left speaker, not ideal; also my sitting position is on the middle of the room lengthwise (my room is about 20' long x 14' x 9'): so I am sitting in the weakest bass area of the room and I can certainly hear much stronger bass anywhere else in the room.
I am thinking of moving the subwoofer behind my coach, so it will be a couple of feet behind the listening position and in the centre compared to the speaker position. I think I should get several benefits:
- More nearfield direct bass
- I will not see the sub and the direction will be central anyway
- My main speakers should work better without the sub in the way
- I will be able to adjust the sub from my seat

Has anybody experimented with this? Will firing against the couch (with one or two feet of clearance) be a problem?

So last night I turned on the JL and SMS-1, and had it playing for a few minutes, my wife walked in the room, as said did I feel that earthquake. The JL was putting out Bass I have never heard from it, sounded like ****, but bass up the ying yang. Not sure what is going on, and will play with it this weekend.

Michael

Michael, have you checked your cables (swapped them). Are you running different cables for the Fathom than the other sub?

I have been trying to set up my F112 for movies, but I fried one of my power amps:(, so I am only using it for music ATM.

I have a question, maybe someone can help me:
at the moment my sub is at the right of my speakers, very close to the right main speaker; my speakers woofers fire to the side, so the sub is right on the line of fire of my left speaker, not ideal; also my sitting position is on the middle of the room lengthwise (my room is about 20' long x 14' x 9'): so I am sitting in the weakest bass area of the room and I can certainly hear much stronger bass anywhere else in the room.
I am thinking of moving the subwoofer behind my coach, so it will be a couple of feet behind the listening position and in the centre compared to the speaker position. I think I should get several benefits:
- More nearfield direct bass
- I will not see the sub and the direction will be central anyway
- My main speakers should work better without the sub in the way
- I will be able to adjust the sub from my seat

Has anybody experimented with this? Will firing against the couch (with one or two feet of clearance) be a problem?

You need to do everything possible to move the seating position away from the center of the room. If you can do that, then the placement of the sub near the mains should not be an issue. With the seat in the center, you are handicapping performance. Even moving the seat back 2-3 feet might help a great deal.

My f112's are right next to my mains and my seat is about 2/3 of the way back in the room and it works beautifully. If I listen 1/2 way in the room there is a huge suckout at 45Hz (not a good freq. for a suckout).

Hi msmith_JL, are there any larger fullscreen pics? I like that pic of the F112, (my sub), but I'm looking for one at 1280X1024 resolution.

You need to do everything possible to move the seating position away from the center of the room. If you can do that, then the placement of the sub near the mains should not be an issue. With the seat in the center, you are handicapping performance. Even moving the seat back 2-3 feet might help a great deal.

My f112's are right next to my mains and my seat is about 2/3 of the way back in the room and it works beautifully. If I listen 1/2 way in the room there is a huge suckout at 45Hz (not a good freq. for a suckout).

Thanks Melville,
I know that the middle position is awful and I can hear that the bass is lacking in that position, although I have not yet run the RTA since I have got the F112. The problem is that I cannot move the couch anywhere else.
That is why I was thinking to reposition the sub just behind my listening position and get more nearfield bass. Is that a bad idea? I cannot do it straight away as I will have to order a long XLR cable and it will take a week to arrive

Thanks Melville,
I know that the middle position is awful and I can hear that the bass is lacking in that position, although I have not yet run the RTA since I have got the F112. The problem is that I cannot move the couch anywhere else.
That is why I was thinking to reposition the sub just behind my listening position and get more nearfield bass. Is that a bad idea? I cannot do it straight away as I will have to order a long XLR cable and it will take a week to arrive

I'm not sure that moving the subwoofer nearfield will solve the problem. Anything is worth trying if the seating position is inflexible, but it's kind of like sitting nearer to one speaker in a stereo pair... hard to compensate for.

Hi msmith_JL, are there any larger fullscreen pics? I like that pic of the F112, (my sub), but I'm looking for one at 1280X1024 resolution.

We will work on some fresh wallpaper size images in the coming month.

We have a few already:
http://home.jlaudio.com/multimedia_pages.php?page_id=16

Got home last night to find my 7 year old son and his buddy (over for a sleepover) absoultely beside themselves with excitement over a movie they'd just watched -- the F113 performed like they'd never heard it perform before (they'd called my wife down because the scenes, aided by the sub, scared them!). Turns out the movie was The Last Mimzy. With that kind of testimonial, I had to watch it myself, and MAN, does that movie have some BASS. What an audio experience. I thought I'd felt my 113 move air before, but this was something else.

Yet another happy F113 customer.

Glad you got the room done!

The SMS-1 has really helped me get more from the JL F-113, it really sounds nice. The wife even said to me, wow JL did something to the sub when you sent it back, I said no, see that new toy in the rack.

Michael

Anyone know if the F113 is sold as a refurb, or maybe B-stock?

I love the size of it... but not the price. :eek:

We will work on some fresh wallpaper size images in the coming month.

We have a few already:
http://home.jlaudio.com/multimedia_pages.php?page_id=16

What is a 800x600 ...wallpaper worth...ZERO. Only those with WW2 15" CRT's may find it of any use.



I would like to see at least 1680x1050 rez and 1920x1200 for those with non post WW2 monitors. :p

What is a 800x600 ...wallpaper worth...ZERO. Only those with WW2 15" CRT's may find it of any use.



I would like to see at least 1680x1050 rez and 1920x1200 for those with non post WW2 monitors. :p

Well, we do have 1024 x 768, too (which brings us at least to Korean War monitor technology).

Rest assured, I will pass your comments along to the teletype operators in our marketing dept. :D

I will pass your comments along to the teletype operators in our marketing dept. :D
Make sure they don't fold that yellow tape when making a "hard copy" of the conversation. ;)

Anyone over here replace their Velodyne DD-15 or DD-18 with a single f113?

I heard a lengthy demo of the f113 at my local dealer's and while impressed with the sound (it did a great job on Finding Nemo) I'm not sure it will really do what I need it to do - and not really through any fault of its own, more through physics and a 13.5" driver not being able to pressurize a room as well as a larger driver might.

I've read reports elsewhere in this thread of people replacing their DD-15 or DD-18s with a pair of f113s, but I only have room for a single sub for various configuration reasons.

Yes, I already know the f113 rates "3" higher on craigsub's list than the DD-18. :D

FYI the DD18/HGS18 does not move more air than the f113.

The 13.5" JL Audio woofer has much longer Xmax and Xmech and will even outdisplace the larger Velo woofers.Since the piston is smaller it has to compensate with a longer stroke.

The DD15 more a competitor for the f112,SPL wise.The f113 is a direct competitor of the DD18.

The two places where the Velo will have an advantage is the built in SMS and extend a ...tiny bit deeper.However that extansion is not of sufficient output when volume pumped up and not a deciding factor IMO.

I have an HGS18 and dual f113,as well as a f112.I did not buy the Fathoms to replace the Velo.I purchased two to place them to have more even bass response.Not a SPL question.

FYI the DD18/HGS18 does not move more air than the f113.
Well, the listening room in question is ~1700 cu. ft and is open on the left side to a 2000 cu. ft. kitchen and hall. Velodyne recommends their 15 or 18 for that, so I wanted to make sure JL's 13.5 could handle it.

Anyone know if the F113 is sold as a refurb, or maybe B-stock?

I love the size of it... but not the price. :eek:

There are usually some pretty good deals on Audiogon/Videogon. I've seen F113s listed for about $2400.

There are usually some pretty good deals on Audiogon/Videogon. I've seen F113s listed for about $2400.
Thanks!

Thanks, Mike. Couldn't have done it without ya!

i think it would be cool if JL would build a new home sub with dual drivers

kind of like dual stacked f113's but in one nice package

i know about the gotham but this would be more of a sub along the lines of dual f113's in build and output. the gotham is in a league of it's own

it could be a sub for people looking for stacked f113's but you would not have to spend quite as much money a buying 2 seperate f113's and you wouldn't have to bother with trying to stack and calibrate and use extra cables and all that. and you could save a few bucks because it would all be in one cabinet, one amp, one single room EQ and mic.

it would cost a little less that dual f113's, probably call it the fathom f213

i bet that would be one hell of a sub

I doubt that will ever happen. You would also need a more powerful amp which would cost more.

Also the Gotham really doesn't have much more output than stacked F113s.

I doubt that will ever happen. You would also need a more powerful amp which would cost more.

Also the Gotham really doesn't have much more output than stacked F113s.

never say never :D

of course it would need a larger amp but one larger amp would cost less than 2 smaller ones

i'm not saying you would save a ton of money but you would save some money. to give you an example, def tech sell the supercube reference @ $1700 and the trinity @ $3000, the trinity is basically dual stacked references but in a single cabinet and you're saving $400

i'm sure there's a market for people looking for "stacked fathom" type of performance in a nice tidy package

Can anyone comment on whether the f113 can adequately move air for a room ~1700 cu. ft that is open on the left side to a 2000 cu. ft. kitchen and hall?

Velodyne says a DD-18 will do it, so I assume if an f113 is actually better than a DD-18 it should as well, but wanted to double check.

Unfortunately the local dealer told me I can buy an f113 from them, but they have no return policy - if I buy it, it's mine, period.

At least my local Velodyne dealer will allow me 30 days to return the DD-18 if I'm unhappy with it...

Can anyone comment on whether the f113 can adequately move air for a room ~1700 cu. ft that is open on the left side to a 2000 cu. ft. kitchen and hall?


Although "adequately move air" isn't the most technical specification, I feel confident in estimating that you'll be more than satisfied. Maybe you'd like to provide more insight as to your setup and expectations?


Unfortunately the local dealer told me I can buy an f113 from them, but if I buy it, it's mine, period.

He's probably doing you and your back a favor. :P

glennQ

Although "adequately move air" isn't the most technical specification, I feel confident in estimating that you'll be more than satisfied. Maybe you'd like to provide more insight as to your setup and expectations?

Just trying to make sure I'm not "underpowering" the space.

For example, a Velodyne DD-15 would be just adequate for that space, and a DD-12 would be too small, with a DD-18 being "more than adequate" and bordering on slight overkill.

Or, in a typical movie environment, the sub shouldn't have to be driven to full capacity to provide bass in a typical viewing environment. The sub also shouldn't go into thermal shutdown playing the Sensurround track on Earthquake. :D

I'm not trying to get 110 dB "Darla" levels here. ;)

But frankly I auditioned the f113 at a local dealer and was a bit underwhelmed on some tracks. I don't want overblown bass but I want to get the best real bass, preferably from a sealed box, for under $5K. My only size limitation is it has to be smaller than approximately 23x23x23, so that eliminates the SVS PB13 Ultra from the list.

You may want to request your local dealer loan you the F113 to try out in your home. Some good dealers will do this if they know you are serious about buying.

You may want to request your local dealer loan you the F113 to try out in your home. Some good dealers will do this if they know you are serious about buying.
They won't do a loan, either.

The general issue is the local dealers are all custom home theatre installers, so I'm more of a nuisance than anything else because I just want to buy one piece, not a whole home theatre system.

I also have no vehicle capable of transporting an f113 even if they agreed to allow me to borrow their current demo unit.

It's painful all around but I generally experience this issue when dealing with a home theatre installer rather than a regular retail audio/video dealer. :(

Frankly it's one of the biggest issues in my pulling the trigger right now; I can try a DD-18 from my local dealer in my home and return it if it doesn't work for me; I have no alternative for an f113 other than to buy one and resell it on eBay or Audiogon if I don't like the way the f113 works for me. That's a pretty major potential headache. :( :(

kucharsk... call Amy Turner at JL Audio and tell her your story. She will help you find an accommodating dealer. 1-888-JLAUDIO... the call is free.

Can anyone comment on whether the f113 can adequately move air for a room ~1700 cu. ft that is open on the left side to a 2000 cu. ft. kitchen and hall?

Velodyne says a DD-18 will do it, so I assume if an f113 is actually better than a DD-18 it should as well, but wanted to double check.

Unfortunately the local dealer told me I can buy an f113 from them, but they have no return policy - if I buy it, it's mine, period.

At least my local Velodyne dealer will allow me 30 days to return the DD-18 if I'm unhappy with it...

I think many people would define "adequately move air for a room ~1700 cu." differnt.

I am one of the few that hasn't been overwhelmed by the JL, it is great for music. When it comes to Home Theater, I prefer the SVS PB12/Plus 2 as it is fat at the 20HZ level, which gives you that air movement in the room.

Michael

The general issue is the local dealers are all custom home theatre installers, so I'm more of a nuisance than anything else because I just want to buy one piece, not a whole home theatre system.


Sounds like I'm not the only one who's run into frustration with this relatively recent phenomenon. When there's an item I'm intrigued by and I check "Dealers" on the manufacturers' websites, it isn't always easy to tell who the custom installers are versus the dealers, and most times I get incredulous, impatient responses from these installers when they realize they've got a, an educated consumer on the phone, and b, someone who isn't shopping for an entire system. And as they don't usually actually CARRY the item I'm calling about, I then have to endure more annoyance in their voice, and an indignant "why do you want that, what do you want?" question when I really should be considering (insert whatever it is they probably have in stock). Oh well, the times they are a changin'.

Sounds like I'm not the only one who's run into frustration with this relatively recent phenomenon. When there's an item I'm intrigued by and I check "Dealers" on the manufacturers' websites, it isn't always easy to tell who the custom installers are versus the dealers, and most times I get incredulous, impatient responses from these installers when they realize they've got a, an educated consumer on the phone, and b, someone who isn't shopping for an entire system. And as they don't usually actually CARRY the item I'm calling about, I then have to endure more annoyance in their voice, and an indignant "why do you want that, what do you want?" question when I really should be considering (insert whatever it is they probably have in stock). Oh well, the times they are a changin'.
This is, unfortunately, becoming more and more common in high end audio as well.

One audio salon near me only orders certain brands of equipment "on demand" because "people who want that brand already know they want it."

Sounds like just a wee bit of a self-limiting market, don't you think? It would be like saying "People who want to order a JL Audio sub already know they want one, so there's no need for us to have a demo unit to audition."

Ferrari dealers can get away with that, not too many others. :eek:

If they're so poorly capitalized they can't order a demo unit, they shouldn't be a dealer for that brand. I'm amazed any brands put up with that type of attitude from their dealers, but I've no idea how hard it is to get new product distributed these days.

SVSound's direct sales model for in-home trial may become the predominant sales method in the future, though I have no idea what they do with the warehouse of returns they must get...

Some of our dealers are not retail operations, and I agree we should do a better job of identifying that in our dealer finder. We will work on that.

As for those who are retail stores, an in-store demo is to be expected, but a loaner subwoofer to evaluate in your home is another thing entirely. A few dealers may offer this, but they are not obligated to do so.

I think most dealers try to make their customers happy, but it is important to also consider that they don't want to get stuck with an expensive used item (and possibly one that is nicked or scratched).

It's like going to a watch store and buying a $3000 watch, wearing it for a week, and then returning it just because you decided you didn't really want it after all. Some watch stores may offer that policy, but I would bet most don't unless the product is still unused and in its original packaging.

Internet brands have to offer returns because there is no other way to evaluate the product and because the added hassle of return shipping the item squelches any frivolous "tire-kicking" pretty effectively. The nice thing about a B&M retail store is being able to look at and listen to the product before you shell out any money. Each method has its pros and cons.

I realize the difficulties, especially today as it's becoming harder and harder to run a high end B&M audio/video store.

The way most retail establishments handle this is you can borrow a unit they already have on display for in-home audition, since it's an open box and likely has been scuffed up already.

With something the size and heft of the f113 (or Velodyne's DD-18 for that matter) things get less and less practical to try at home.

You can imagine how this gets even worse when you're talking about high end speaker systems, but for example I don't think anyone would spend $20K for speakers without hearing them at home, but what's the dealer going to do with "used" $20K speakers? Ouch.

but what's the dealer going to do with "used" $20K speakers?

sell them as "open box" or "demo" and still make a killing

sell them as "open box" or "demo" and still make a killing

Even if he did that, customers for a $20k speakers don't walk in the door every day, or every month, or even every year in some cases.

Bought the F112, quick question... I have the new Onkyo 805 receiver. Do I run Onkyo's Audyssey automatic speaker setup first and then run JL's ARO or the other way around. Any recommended initial setting I need to do ? Thanks.

Run the ARO first. Then run the Audyssey. Then if the sound is a little thin, feel free to kick up the gain on the sub a couple of db's. Audyssey will sometimes make the bass sound a little lean.

Run the ARO first. Then run the Audyssey. Then if the sound is a little thin, feel free to kick up the gain on the sub a couple of db's. Audyssey will sometimes make the bass sound a little lean.
You are right, the Audyssey makes my speaker sound thin. Increasing the gain on the sub old sub (HSU) up didn't help much. I have turned the Audyssey off.

Hey has anyone use car wax on your glossy f113 I believe the manual mention it ? The only reason I ask is because my GF dropped a ceramic white plate near the sub,and some of the tiny piece imbedded the lower edge of the sub leaving ugly marks that's driving me nuts...They are car scratch removers for this kind of F...UP?


Thanks

DJoel

Djoel... you can use a synthetic polymer car "wax" like Meguiar's NXT or EagleOne "Nanowax"... the latter is slightly better but they both work well on the gloss finish and conceal light scratches.

Djoel... you can use a synthetic polymer car "wax" like Meguiar's NXT or EagleOne "Nanowax"... the latter is slightly better but they both work well on the gloss finish and conceal light scratches.



Thanks msmith.....I'll look around for it over the weekend....



DJoel

Even if he did that, customers for a $20k speakers don't walk in the door every day, or every month, or even every year in some cases.

i think he was using 20K speakers as an exaggerated hypothetical

it looks like the fathoms are a lot cheaper than 20K and selling like hot cakes

i think he was using 20K speakers as an exaggerated hypothetical

No, I actually wasn't.

You're a high end audio dealer and a customer wants to buy a pair of Sonus Faber Elipsas. MSRP, $20,800.

You can't afford to keep a pair of those in stock waiting for a buyer, so you order them.

The customer buys them, finds they don't work in their listening space and returns them.

You've got a used pair of $20,800 speakers, and few people in the market for such things are going to want a returned pair.

What do you do now?

As the price goes up, the problem intensifies. You've got the same issues with $10K CD players from Wadia and Theta, more expensive speakers from various vendors, and on and on.

No one would buy any of those products without auditioning them, yet it's hard to keep such things on hand as demos in case someone wants to buy one.

If you don't keep the demo equipment, then only people who've auditioned them in the past will buy it. No "I love their sound, I've got to have them" purchases. Limits your sales and audience severely.

High End A/V retail is hard and is getting more difficult every day in the face of people who think what they can get at Best Buy is "good enough."

No, I actually wasn't.

You're a high end audio dealer and a customer wants to buy a pair of Sonus Faber Elipsas. MSRP, $20,800.

You can't afford to keep a pair of those in stock waiting for a buyer, so you order them.

The customer buys them, finds they don't work in their listening space and returns them.

You've got a used pair of $20,800 speakers, and few people in the market for such things are going to want a returned pair.

What do you do now?

As the price goes up, the problem intensifies. You've got the same issues with $10K CD players from Wadia and Theta, more expensive speakers from various vendors, and on and on.

No one would buy any of those products without auditioning them, yet it's hard to keep such things on hand as demos in case someone wants to buy one.

If you don't keep the demo equipment, then only people who've auditioned them in the past will buy it. No "I love their sound, I've got to have them" purchases. Limits your sales and audience severely.

High End A/V retail is hard and is getting more difficult every day in the face of people who think what they can get at Best Buy is "good enough."

They can unload it on audiogon like every other dealer with expensive returned items. Audiogon is full of dealers unloading things from customers who changed their minds, and they are still selling at prices they can make money with.

-Ethan

No, I actually wasn't.

You're a high end audio dealer and a customer wants to buy a pair of Sonus Faber Elipsas. MSRP, $20,800.

You can't afford to keep a pair of those in stock waiting for a buyer, so you order them.

The customer buys them, finds they don't work in their listening space and returns them.

You've got a used pair of $20,800 speakers, and few people in the market for such things are going to want a returned pair.

What do you do now?




You have a very good point.

Too bad manufacturers don't have a loan out program where they can ship these speakers to the local area dealer to put in a home for a week or two. Then if the customer likes them, they can order a fresh set. Then the trial speakers go to another buyer's home for trial.

Makes too much sense and will never happen. :D

No, I actually wasn't.

You're a high end audio dealer and a customer wants to buy a pair of Sonus Faber Elipsas. MSRP, $20,800.

You can't afford to keep a pair of those in stock waiting for a buyer, so you order them.

The customer buys them, finds they don't work in their listening space and returns them.

You've got a used pair of $20,800 speakers, and few people in the market for such things are going to want a returned pair.

What do you do now?

As the price goes up, the problem intensifies. You've got the same issues with $10K CD players from Wadia and Theta, more expensive speakers from various vendors, and on and on.

No one would buy any of those products without auditioning them, yet it's hard to keep such things on hand as demos in case someone wants to buy one.

If you don't keep the demo equipment, then only people who've auditioned them in the past will buy it. No "I love their sound, I've got to have them" purchases. Limits your sales and audience severely.

High End A/V retail is hard and is getting more difficult every day in the face of people who think what they can get at Best Buy is "good enough."

so you're trying to draw a comparison between rarely sold 20K speakers with a hot selling 3K sub?

i understand your point but it doesn't seem like an fair comparison, the topic is the fathom after all

i would think that after a certain price point, it's understandable that you would have to alter your return policy

there's no easy answer. you have the customer who wants the world and you have the retailer who's trying to make a living and keep customers happy. i used to sell high end gear in a small stereo shop so i fully understand this

life would be a lot easier if it wasn't for the weasels who "borrow" gear for parties or whatever and then bring it back. even sears has to charge a 15% restocking fee on all their electronics

so you're trying to draw a comparison between rarely sold 20K speakers with a hot selling 3K sub?

i understand your point but it doesn't seem like an fair comparison, the topic is the fathom after all

Well, my original quote was:

With something the size and heft of the f113 (or Velodyne's DD-18 for that matter) things get less and less practical to try at home.

You can imagine how this gets even worse when you're talking about high end speaker systems, but for example I don't think anyone would spend $20K for speakers without hearing them at home, but what's the dealer going to do with "used" $20K speakers? Ouch.

Still, I haven't yet found a dealer from whom I can borrow an f113, so yes, it even happens with a "hot selling 3K sub." Since the dealers in my area are all home theatre installers, they'd get stuck with it if I returned it until either someone built a new theatre and didn't mind a used one or until they sold it as used through whatever source. Yeah, they might still make money even at a used price, but probably not enough to make it worth the hassle for them.

Just got my F112 today and need help with setup. More specifically what to set all these controls to:
1. LP filter
2. LP Freq
3. E.L.F. Trim
4. Phase

The manual is a great way to start. It really lays it all out fer ya..

The manual is a great way to start. It really lays it all out fer ya..

Thanks. I guess I was anxious and passed on reading the manual.

Thanks. I guess I was anxious and passed on reading the manual.

I too am guilty of plugging in first and figuring things out later.....welcome to the club! The manual is fairly precise and of course the guys at SVS are very helpful.

I too am guilty of plugging in first and figuring things out later.....welcome to the club! The manual is fairly precise and of course the guys at SVS are very helpful.

freudian slip I guess. I meant JL Audio.... I am currently waiting for my new SVS Ultra 13 :D

to replace the one I lost. JL also threw in a power cord. They did not even charge me for shipping.

I really appreciate the kind and responsive customer service.

thanks again Amy and JL Audio,

troy

I finished setting up my F112 yesterday exactly as stated in the JL manual run ARO and then recalibrate my whole system using my Onkyo 805 Audyssey auto eq. I verified all speaker and subwoofer level using Avia and THX optimizer and I am not satisfied with the final result. This sub failed to WOW! me. As a matter fact I only noticed a very slight improvement over my old HSU SFT-2 which is a small 10" sub. F112 being a more powerful sub I expected to turn the gain on the amp and sub much lower than my current setting but I have the gain defeated (12 o'clock) on the F112 vs. 12:30 PM for the HSU and the subwoofer level on the Onkyo at -7.0 for f112 vs. -5.0 for the HSU. The F112 being 12" more powerful sub than the HSU I expected a lot more output from it and hence a lower dial on the sub level at the processor. I run a few DVD and music I am familiar with and while the bass is much cleaner on the F112 I did get any heart pounding, air moving excellent bass I was looking for. As a matter of fact, the overall bass performance is much closer to the HSU STF-2 which led me to believe that something is not right with my setup. I have heard what this sub is capable of when I did the ARO setup...the test tones from the F112 shook the house like no other and everything in the house was rattling, felt like a mini earthquake...The sub works just fine but after calibration the bass is just lacking. Where did I go wrong? :confused: HELP!!!!
BTW, the calibrate light is supposed to stay lit (green) after setup is complete, and the defeat to off , always?

Did you calibrate the sub to 75db? You might just be wanting a higher level of bass... the sub is obviously capable of it so turn up the gain some. Also you cannot compare the gain "dial setting" on one sub to another sub, even if one does have a higher power output. 12 o'clock on the JL might only be equivalent to 10 o'clock on the HSU.

Also what kind of material did you watch in your attempts to be WOWed? Hopefully the DVDs you picked have a noticeable amount of bass.

BTW, the calibrate light is supposed to stay lit (green) after setup is complete, and the defeat to off , always?

If you are able to complete a successful ARO calibration, the green light will be on. If it fails, it will be red if I recall.

When you do the ARO calibration, the level mode switch needs to be set to variable. Once the ARO does its work, you set it back to reference. However, if you decide you want a bit more pop, you can either calibrate the sub a bit hot, or set the level mode switch to variable and turn the master level up a bit.

Once set, you can also use the E.L.F. trim if you want a bit more zap at the lower frequencies. This is on page 17 of the manual.

"The Extreme Low Frequency (“e.l.f. trim”) knob allows the user to apply a certain amount of signal equalization at 25 Hertz (extremely low bass). At full counterclockwise rotation, the signal at 25 Hz is cut by 12 dB. At “0” the equalizer is set fl at for zero contribution to the signal. At full clockwise rotation, the signal at 25 Hz is boosted by 3 dB."


However, right now I would focus on placement, ARO and then calibrate the sub.

Charles

Did you calibrate the sub to 75db? You might just be wanting a higher level of bass... the sub is obviously capable of it so turn up the gain some. Also you cannot compare the gain "dial setting" on one sub to another sub, even if one does have a higher power output. 12 o'clock on the JL might only be equivalent to 10 o'clock on the HSU.

Also what kind of material did you watch in your attempts to be WOWed? Hopefully the DVDs you picked have a noticeable amount of bass.


Yes, calibrated @75 for all speakers, and then added 2db for the sub. Are you saying to turn the sub level on the amp more than that even though it is going to be far away from the calibrated level?
For demo, I used the opening scene from the LOTR-TFOTR and the crash scene in Final Destination 2 and some bass heavy songs.

If you are able to complete a successful ARO calibration, the green light will be on. If it fails, it will be red if I recall.

When you do the ARO calibration, the level mode switch needs to be set to variable. Once the ARO does its work, you set it back to reference. However, if you decide you want a bit more pop, you can either calibrate the sub a bit hot, or set the level mode switch to variable and turn the master level up a bit.

Once set, you can also use the E.L.F. trim if you want a bit more zap at the lower frequencies. This is on page 17 of the manual.



However, right now I would focus on placement, ARO and then calibrate the sub.

Charles
I run the ARO successfully initially. Are you suggesting to run to again? I put the sub where the HSU used to be. I did extensive placement experiment with a friend when I put the HSU and since the current placement yields the best sound, much cleaner but not the best output, I left the sub where it is at 1/3 from the front of room on the side and I sit at back wall of the room.

Alex, is there a way to NOT do the Audyssey processing on the subwoofer while still doing it for the rest of the system?

Yes, calibrated @75 for all speakers, and then added 2db for the sub. Are you saying to turn the sub level on the amp more than that even though it is going to be far away from the calibrated level?
For demo, I used the opening scene from the LOTR-TFOTR and the crash scene in Final Destination 2 and some bass heavy songs.


Hey there, I have the exact same subwoofer. The volume level on the sub does not affect the ARO. ARO is for equalization not volume level. If you turn the volume level up higher after ARO, it won't affect the ARO. Go ahead and turn it up. Or try turning the sub volume up in your receiver.

Also, make sure you have all forms of dynamic compression turned off in your receiver and dvd and cable box.

Alex, is there a way to NOT do the Audyssey processing on the subwoofer while still doing it for the rest of the system?
I don't know. I'll inquire.

Hey there, I have the exact same subwoofer. The volume level on the sub does not affect the ARO. ARO is for equalization not volume level. If you turn the volume level up higher after ARO, it won't affect the ARO. Go ahead and turn it up. Or try turning the sub volume up in your receiver.
Wouldn't turning the volume up or the sub level on the Onkyo defeat the purpose of calibration? The sub will be running much higher than the rest of the speakers.

Also, make sure you have all forms of dynamic compression turned off in your receiver and dvd and cable box.
DRC is off on the Onkyo.

Wouldn't turning the volume up or the sub level on the Onkyo defeat the purpose of calibration? The sub will be running much higher than the rest of the speakers.

When calibrating, I always use 75db as reference. Some people calibrate their subs hot by 1-2 db's or more. You can increase the volume level of the sub by switching the level mode switch to variable. The variable setting allows you to increase or decrease the level of output.

Some people run their subs hot dependent on source material and personal preferences.

If you switch the level mode switch back to reference, it defaults back to the original settings on the initial calibration providing you don't change the settings on your SSP/receiver.

In a nutshell, on the level mode switch in my words:

Reference setting allows original calibration provided you leave everything untouched at the SSP.

Variable setting allows you to increase or decrease the output by turning the master volume control accordingly.

That is my understanding of this particular switch. Please correct me if I am wrong.

The ARO suggests the following settings verbatim from the manual:

Applying Automatic Room Optimization (A.R.O.)
You are now ready to apply the power of JL Audio’s exclusive Automatic Room
Optimization system. Th is system will measure the response of the subwoofer at your primary listening seat and apply a powerful equalizer to tame the primary room mode, resulting in smoother, more accurate bass performance. If you are using multiple Fathoms in a master/slave confi guration, you will only need to address the unit designated as “master” to perform A.R.O. calibration for the entire subwoofer system.

a) Set the Main Power switch to the “ON” position and be sure the Fathom’s indicator lights are switched “ON” via the “Lights” switch.

b) Flip the Fathom’s “Level Mode” switch to “Variable” and turn the Master Level control to the “12 o’clock” position. If you were already in “Variable” mode, make a note of the volume position you established during Level Setting (Step 1) before turning it to the “12 o’clock” position for A.R.O. calibration. In most cases, you will need to tweak the overall level of the subwoofer after the A.R.O. calibration is run, but you need to know your prior setting to begin that process.

c) Set the LP Filter to “OFF”

d) Verify that the “e.l.f. trim” control is set to “0”

e) Remove the calibration microphone from its protective pouch and connect its cable to the mini-XLR jack on the Fathom’s front control panel.

NOTE: A.R.O. Calibration is only possible when the included JL Audio test microphone is plugged in to the Fathom front panel. Th e “Calibrate” feature is
disabled with no microphone plugged in to prevent accidental loss of settings.

f) Connect the microphone to the other end of the mic cable and temporarily place the mic in the primary listening seat. If you have a microphone stand, you can place the microphone at head height and position in the primary listening seat.

g) On the Fathom’s control panel, press the “Calibrate” button. Th e green light on the “Calibrate” button will turn on, indicating that calibration will begin in 5 seconds.

NOTE: If you have already run A.R.O. once, the “Calibrate” light will already be on. Each time A.R.O. calibration is run, the previous settings are erased and the new settings are stored.

Mozvz, I completely understand what you are saying. I am running the sub hot by 2db now.

Mozvz, I completely understand what you are saying. I am running the sub hot by 2db now.

Alex,

I was not trying to insult your intelligence. If I did, I sincerely apologize.

Have you attempted a different placement of the F112? Is it possible that the best output positioning for the Hsu might be different for the Fathom?

Alex,

I was not trying to insult your intelligence. If I did, I sincerely apologize.

Have you attempted a different placement of the F112? Is it possible that the best output positioning for the Hsu might be different for the Fathom?

No need....I didn't take it that way at all. I was just saying that I did what you suggested already.
I thought a particular position for a sub that produced the best bass in my room would apply universally to all subs. Experimenting with a new position would require a lot of work and rearranging the entire room. I want to do that as a last resort.

I thought a particular position for a sub that produced the best bass in my room would apply universally to all subs. Experimenting with a new position would require a lot of work and rearranging the entire room. I want to do that as a last resort.

I understand your comment about room rearrangement being the last resort. I have the same dilemma in my small dedicated room. Moving equipment is always a time consuming experience considering most everything is measured to position.

Although not an expert with subs, I think placement from one position to another will effect output. There was an instance on the SVS thread where a person who owned a previous SVS sub placed the new addition in the same place. He was not happy with the output. He moved it a foot and he was over the moon with the results.

I am not sure how to fix your problem without being there, but as always, we can only suggest basic troubleshooting techniques using this medium.

I am sure Mr. Smith or one of the sub guru's will chime in with other thoughts.

Mozvz,
Thank you for your input. It's has been helpful.
I like the comment...."over the moon with the results". I want to feel that way. :D

Calibrating your sub to the same 75db as the rest of the system isn't always the best thing to do according to the manual that came with my other sub. Sometimes it's necessary to tweak by ear and it sounds like you've done some of that by bumping up the level a db or 2. If you have any test discs with test tones it may be worth seeing if you have "suckouts" at certain frequencies that may be affecting the sub sound in your place. For example, if you have a big dip around 40hz or so you'll really lose a lot of impact in a lot of movie scenes.

If you have any test discs with test tones it may be worth seeing if you have "suckouts" at certain frequencies that may be affecting the sub sound in your place. For example, if you have a big dip around 40hz or so you'll really lose a lot of impact in a lot of movie scenes.

Bingo.

One would think you had the same nulls with the last sub, placed in the same location, but you'd be surprised what 10 or 20 inches does -- like if your last sub had the driver on the bottom towards the back and was a big ported design, and the new sub has it on the front in a small closed design.

The test disc (there are lots of tones that can be downloaded) and an SPL meter will tell you A LOT. I liked the concept so much I sent Rives audio $20 for their CD of test tones, with corrected tones for the ways the Radio Shack analog SPL meter misreads some tones.

It is also possible that the bass is actually more accurate now -- due to the change in sub and location of the driver -- but that it's not what you are used to, yet.

And there are probably 3 or 4 other possible explanations, as well.

No need....I didn't take it that way at all. I was just saying that I did what you suggested already.
I thought a particular position for a sub that produced the best bass in my room would apply universally to all subs. Experimenting with a new position would require a lot of work and rearranging the entire room. I want to do that as a last resort.
If you have a PC, download REW and run a sweep and within 5 seconds you will see what your sub is doing. With REW you can place your sub where you sit and move your RS meter around the room and find several good locations for your sub quickly because the frequency sweep is fast.

I finished setting up my F112 yesterday exactly as stated in the JL manual run ARO and then recalibrate my whole system using my Onkyo 805 Audyssey auto eq. I verified all speaker and subwoofer level using Avia and THX optimizer and I am not satisfied with the final result. This sub failed to WOW! me. As a matter fact I only noticed a very slight improvement over my old HSU SFT-2 which is a small 10" sub. F112 being a more powerful sub I expected to turn the gain on the amp and sub much lower than my current setting but I have the gain defeated (12 o'clock) on the F112 vs. 12:30 PM for the HSU and the subwoofer level on the Onkyo at -7.0 for f112 vs. -5.0 for the HSU. The F112 being 12" more powerful sub than the HSU I expected a lot more output from it and hence a lower dial on the sub level at the processor. I run a few DVD and music I am familiar with and while the bass is much cleaner on the F112 I did get any heart pounding, air moving excellent bass I was looking for. As a matter of fact, the overall bass performance is much closer to the HSU STF-2 which led me to believe that something is not right with my setup. I have heard what this sub is capable of when I did the ARO setup...the test tones from the F112 shook the house like no other and everything in the house was rattling, felt like a mini earthquake...The sub works just fine but after calibration the bass is just lacking. Where did I go wrong? :confused: HELP!!!!
BTW, the calibrate light is supposed to stay lit (green) after setup is complete, and the defeat to off , always?

The JL Audio subs are wonderful in blending with your current speakers, what they don't or won't provide is the proverbial "WOW" factor. I'm talking about the in your face sharp bass that some require for their HT set-up. Some have spoken about the missing fun factor in the fathoms....BUT they offer clean, and well blended bass to contribute to your current set-up. They just won't provide the pant leg brustling effect that you may be looking for....period.

what they don't or won't provide is the proverbial "WOW" factor.

I'm talking about the in your face sharp bass that some require for their HT set-up.

They just won't provide the pant leg brustling effect that you may be looking for....period.
Does a JL Audio sub provide more or less WOW factor than an SVS Plus/2 ?

Does a JL Audio sub provide more or less WOW factor than an SVS Plus/2 ?

I owned the SVS Plus/2 and have compared the two (F113). The SVS won hands down in producing more compression and it's the only sub that has actually raised the hair on the back of my neck! I'm looking forward to auditioning the new SVS PB Ultra13 ($1,399!!). This is the sub to beat.

If you have a PC, download REW and run a sweep and within 5 seconds you will see what your sub is doing. With REW you can place your sub where you sit and move your RS meter around the room and find several good locations for your sub quickly because the frequency sweep is fast.

how do you hook the radio shack spl meter into your computer?

and when you run the REW sweep, do you use the rs meter or a mic?

The JL Audio subs are wonderful in blending with your current speakers, what they don't or won't provide is the proverbial "WOW" factor. I'm talking about the in your face sharp bass that some require for their HT set-up. Some have spoken about the missing fun factor in the fathoms....BUT they offer clean, and well blended bass to contribute to your current set-up. They just won't provide the pant leg brustling effect that you may be looking for....period.
I beg to differ. My f113 moves my pant legs just fine.

I wouldn't be quite so matter-of-fact . . . you're entitled to your opinion, but just remember what they say about opinions.:)

Where can one find REW to download?

Thanks!

Where can one find REW to download?

Thanks!


http://www.hometheatershack.com/roomeq/
Thread located here >> http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=529224

Does a JL Audio sub provide more or less WOW factor than an SVS Plus/2 ?
I replaced a SVS PC+ with a JO Audio F122 so my short impressions could be relevant or not, as it is not the Plus 2.
I have a good stereo rig and an entry level 5 channel system, although I am planning to upgrade it. I am much more experienced and interested in stereo music than in home theater. I am in the process of doing major room treatment, so I have not yet properly analysed and calibrated the response of the F122, I have only run the ARO (excellent tool, extremely easy to use). I have a Behringer DEQ for RTA and equalisation if it will be needed.
My listening room is about 20x13x9, quite big for European standards, probably small for American ones.

- Music: It is not even fair to compare the two subs with 2 channel music: they are in complete different leagues.
The PC plus is decent at its price point at best: the bass is slow, quite muddy and does not integrate at all with the bass produced by a decent pair of speaker; to be honest I would use i with music at extremely low volume just to give a bit of depth to my previous speakers (Totem Arro) which started to roll off at 50hz. I often turned the sub off for music, even if my speaker really needed a sub. I have auditioned the SVS SB12+ and IMO for music is a big step up from the PC+. I am aware that there are many subs more expensive of the PC+ that produce lower quality bass, so I believe that it is decent value for music, but I really think it is a sub engineered mostly with HT in mind
The F112 produce the best bass I have heard in a subwoofer and I can hardly imagine anything better: very tight and percussive bass, it integrate perfectly with my actual speakers (Gallo Reference III, which reach around 40hz). The ARO is a big plus and it works very well, even though I have a PEQ I am not sure I will use it.

Movies: As I said I am not an experienced HT user and reading the forums I really have problems understanding what people look for in a subwoofer. I really don't get all the obsession with "output": with the SVS I never went over 5% of the volume (with music I was using 1%); anywhere near 10% not only my house would move sideways, but also the whole street. With the F112 I have the volume set at 50% and I finely adjust it from the receiver. In any case I would easily get arrested if I used 50% of the total volume. So why on hearth would I want more output? I would really like someone to explain it to me.
- The SVS PC+ was IMO an excellent HT subwoofer for the money: really a lot of impact and as I said about 15 times more output than what I could use (if that is a factor). I measured the in-room response going down to about 21hz befor starting to decline. Yes I could feel the impact of the air on my face if that is considered a bonus. At the same time I really felt the bass was often too much: I had problem adjusting the correct level: if I put the best bass for most situations, when there was some big bass action everything around the house started to resonate which is not my idea of fun (but maybe that is what HT is about and I just don't get it)
- The F112: with movies the F112 gives me the same impression of a much cleaner and faster bass: I get all the depth and power that I need , but explosions and other sudden burst of bass do not echo and reverberate as they did with the SVS and I definetly prefer it this way. Also the different parts of my house do not seem to resonate as much which is a big relief (probably thanks to the ARO). Finally I manage to set a volume level that is perfecly satisfying with the normal scene but does not get annoying with the sudden burst of bass. I also have the feeling that the F122 goes at least 2-3hz further down than the SVS, although I have not measured it yet, definetly with music I can detect extra things in the low region.

Look: I sold the PC+ because it was embarassingly hugly with its bin effect. I really could not bare looking at it anymore. It was also dominating the entire room and any visitor would notice it immediately and not in a nice way. The F112 looks very nice and it is not at all immediatly noticed.

Finally the SVS PC+ IMO can only in some way compete with the F112 for home theatre duties and even in this area I much prefer the Fathom. Regarding music and looks they are just in very different leagues.
Still I consider the SVS PC+ a very good HT subwoofer for its cost

I owned the SVS Plus/2 and have compared the two (F113). The SVS won hands down in producing more compression and it's the only sub that has actually raised the hair on the back of my neck!

I beg to differ. My f113 moves my pant legs just fine.

So which is it? :)

how do you hook the radio shack spl meter into your computer?

and when you run the REW sweep, do you use the rs meter or a mic?

Yes, the RS meter becomes a mic, and you load its calibration compensation file with your sound card compensation file, and the results will be pretty accurate from 7KHz down to about 10Hz. If you want to measure higher up you will need a calibrated measurement mic.

Yes, the RS meter becomes a mic, and you load its calibration compensation file with your sound card compensation file, and the results will be pretty accurate from 7KHz down to about 10Hz. If you want to measure higher up you will need a calibrated measurement mic.

thanks :)

and i'll need a special USB cable that plugs into the rs meter?

or is it an audio cable that goes right into the audio input of the soundcard?

thanks :)

and i'll need a special USB cable that plugs into the rs meter?

or is it an audio cable that goes right into the audio input of the soundcard?

Use an RCA cable from the RS to the sound card.

Use an RCA cable from the RS to the sound card.

thanks again :)

The JL Audio subs are wonderful in blending with your current speakers, what they don't or won't provide is the proverbial "WOW" factor. I'm talking about the in your face sharp bass that some require for their HT set-up. Some have spoken about the missing fun factor in the fathoms....BUT they offer clean, and well blended bass to contribute to your current set-up. They just won't provide the pant leg brustling effect that you may be looking for....period.


Wrong, the JL offers a huge wow factor! In fact on movies, when I had my SVS Plus/2 and JL paired together, I preferred the JL in both the wow factor department and the accuracy department. I did extensive A/B testing with both the subs, which ultimately led me to my decision to sell the SVS and purchase a second JL.

Wrong, the JL offers a huge wow factor! In fact on movies, when I had my SVS Plus/2 and JL paired together, I preferred the JL in both the wow factor department and the accuracy department. I did extensive A/B testing with both the subs, which ultimately lead me to my decision to sell the SVS and purchase a second JL.

Hmmmm...you need two JL subs, eh? Got it.;)

Hmmmm...you need two JL subs, eh? Got it.;)

That's not what he said ... if you like your subs, cool, but knock off the asinine little shots at a sub which you clearly did not know how to operate correctly. :rolleyes:

Wrong, the JL offers a huge wow factor! In fact on movies, when I had my SVS Plus/2 and JL paired together, I preferred the JL in both the wow factor department and the accuracy department. I did extensive A/B testing with both the subs, which ultimately lead me to my decision to sell the SVS and purchase a second JL.

I was never able to do a a/b comparision but my SVS Plus/2 gave more of a WOW factor, the JL gave much more acurate bass.

I have sold the JL, and am going back to SVS.

I think a lots has to do what works best with your room, and might we all could hear the same thing and descibe it 12 ways.

Hmmmm...you need two JL subs, eh? Got it.;)

I have always had two subs no matter what kind they were. My SVS was paired with a Klispch RSW-15.

I have owned two different SVS subs (PB10 and PB12+), three HSU subs, and now the JL F112. Both of the SVS subs had a roundish bass sound. The HSU subs were more articulate and had more punch. The JL even more so, and in a nice, small, albeit heavy, package.

Now the new Ultra13 is suppossed to be more articulate and detailed. If I were to purchase an SVS sub, that is the one I would get. Some of the other SVS subs may have more output but they won't sound as good. I'll take articulate and detailed over loud anyday.

my SVS Plus/2 gave more of a WOW factor, the JL gave much more acurate bass.

I'll take articulate and detailed over loud anyday.
So then... for someone that doesn't push the volume to the max (like me), would the F112/3 be a better match than an SVS Plus/2 (or Ultra13)?

So then... for someone that doesn't push the volume to the max (like me), would the F112/3 be a better match than an SVS Plus/2 (or Ultra13)?

If you aren't a super loud player, I would think the JL F113 would be good for you. As people have said it is about getting it set up correctly.

I would also recommend that you go out and try and hear a Plus/2, as it does sound differn't, many people would be willing to let you hear them in there homes.

Michael

I would also recommend that you go out and try and hear a Plus/2, as it does sound differn't, many people would be willing to let you hear them in there homes.
I've already got a Plus/2. It's just that it's a monster, and I wouldn't mind something smaller. However, I want to make sure that if I do get a replacement: (A) I'll like it at least as much as the Plus/2 (hopefully more), and (B) I get the right replacement (F113? Ultra13?).

Know what I mean? :)

If you want something smaller, The Ultra13 won't be quite what you're lookin' for. It's almost the same size as the TV-12 Ultra/2 sub from what I've seen of pics from Weez's photos.

I'm not sure why getech is on a tear about this "wow" business, but it's news to me. We certainly haven't received any complaints that Fathoms lack output or "wow" (whatever that is).

When properly set up, they blend and remain unobtrusive until called upon by the program material to deliver a wallop. They certainly don't lack in output capability compared to any other subwoofer of similar size and if you run them hot you can certainly bring them to forefront more, if that's what you want.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

The JL Audio subs are wonderful in blending with your current speakers, what they don't or won't provide is the proverbial "WOW" factor. I'm talking about the in your face sharp bass that some require for their HT set-up. Some have spoken about the missing fun factor in the fathoms....BUT they offer clean, and well blended bass to contribute to your current set-up. They just won't provide the pant leg brustling effect that you may be looking for....period.

:rolleyes:

Give me a break.

I have the f112 and dual f113 subs and even one f112 will supply the WOW factor by the bucket.

You are not ready to hear very clean sub bass yet. :p

Are you the same Getech who tries to sell can openers to all people on the Klipsch forums?

You are not ready to hear very clean sub bass yet. :p
I am! :)

The price of the F113 is prohibitive, though (for me). Anyone have any connections? ;) If so, PM me.

I'm not sure why getech is on a tear about this "wow" business, but it's news to me. We certainly haven't received any complaints that Fathoms lack output or "wow" (whatever that is).

When properly set up, they blend and remain unobtrusive until called upon by the program material to deliver a wallop. They certainly don't lack in output capability compared to any other subwoofer of similar size and if you run them hot you can certainly bring them to forefront more, if that's what you want.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.
I have to speak up as a customer with an f113. This subwoofer is the single best HT purchase I've ever made. It has more impact on my HT experience than any other piece of equipment I own. And the "Wow" factor it brings is not subtle. With that one f113, my room literally could not take any more wow. I would need structural reinforcement. I know the price is high for most folks, but I can tell you that it was worth every penny, EASILY a much better upgrade than the last 3 projectors I upgraded. So save money elsewhere, but buy this sub. Period.

I have to speak up as a customer with an f113. This subwoofer is the single best HT purchase I've ever made. It has more impact on my HT experience than any other piece of equipment I own. And the "Wow" factor it brings is not subtle. With that one f113, my room literally could not take any more wow. I would need structural reinforcement. I know the price is high for most folks, but I can tell you that it was worth every penny, EASILY a much better upgrade than the last 3 projectors I upgraded. So save money elsewhere, but buy this sub. Period.

I agree another F113 "WOWED", happy customer here.

I have to speak up as a customer with an f113. This subwoofer is the single best HT purchase I've ever made. It has more impact on my HT experience than any other piece of equipment I own. And the "Wow" factor it brings is not subtle. With that one f113, my room literally could not take any more wow. I would need structural reinforcement. I know the price is high for most folks, but I can tell you that it was worth every penny, EASILY a much better upgrade than the last 3 projectors I upgraded. So save money elsewhere, but buy this sub. Period.

I have to agree. The f113 is easily the best component in my system. It provides the oomph that my system was missing before. The difference is night and day.

Another owner of an f113. I could not believe what I was missing after hearing this sub. I am slowly going back through my DVD movie and music collection just to hear what I was missing before.

The Fathom f113 was reviewed on AudioRevolution...guess what another positive to say the least review. No surprise :)

Now the reviewer hints at new JL AUdio full range speakers..being outstanding. Hmmm let us hear more Mr Smith I am all ears. :D

Time to add another f112 soon and then I am all set...well maybe.

One of the other things you are getting as a JL customer, is customer service that is awesome.

One of the other things you are getting as a JL customer, is customer service that is awesome.

I can certify that one. Service is second to none.

When I read all these positive comments about F112 performance I feel kind of angry. I own the sub, did all sort of calibration (AVIA, THX, using SPL meter), including turning off the Audssesy on my Onkyo receiver and I have yet to experience what you guys are talking about here. I moved around the sub and that didn't help either. The only time I got wowed is when I run the ARO and couldn't believe the amount of pressure this sub is capable of. Unfortunately that did not translate to excellent bass that can be felt and heard. In fact I could not hear the difference between this sub and my trusted HSU sub. I noticed distortion free bass and that's about it. I have the gain on the sub @3:00 PM and -5 on the receiver. What else could I do? Where have I gone wrong? My complaint is I can't get good output.... can't get that bass that hits you so hard that makes you "WOW" without distortion. And I surely wouldn't say I have heard things that I have never heard before with my HSU, not even once because I haven't. I need help here badly please!

I'm not sure this will solve your problem, but I would raise the output on the receiver to about 0 and lower the gain on the sub for starters.

I'm not sure this will solve your problem, but I would raise the output on the receiver to about 0 and lower the gain on the sub for starters.

I read at SVS site and some others as well that we should keep the sub level @ - 5 ( on a scale of -10 to +10) so that the receiver would send the cleanest distortion free signal to the sub. I initially set it at -6.5 and the gain on the sub to 12 O'Clock and calibrate using SPL to arrive at my current level. My SPL now read 77 db and sometimes I up the level on the receiver to -3.0 to give ti some boost. Still this sub lacks impact.

How big is your room overall and is the room open to the rest of the house? Also, how far do you sit from the sub?

Yes. After extensive placement experiment, the current spot turns out to be the best possible spot for both subs.

Sorry, I had edited my above post and changed my question.

How big is your room overall and is the room open to the rest of the house? Also, how far do you sit from the sub?
My room is 20 x 17 x 8 that is open to a small foyer,that leads to the stairway. I sit 11.5 ft from the sub.

You should be able to get decent volume in that area. Many of us when we calibrate, run the subs a little "hot" by 2 or 3 db. Have you tried that? I'd also be interested in some of your receiver settings like speaker size and crossover. Have you tried adjusting the phase setting on the sub?

You should be able to get decent volume in that area. Many of us when we calibrate, run the subs a little "hot" by 2 or 3 db. Have you tried that? I'd also be interested in some of your receiver settings like speaker size and crossover. Have you tried adjusting the phase setting on the sub?

The sub is set up 2 db hotter. I even crack it up by 3 db more when I watch a movie. Speaker size is set to small, XO is @ 80 Hz, LFP also @ 80 and phase is set to 0.

Alex,

- leave the ARO off. I find EQ'ing the sub yields a flat response but often, it removes some of the mid bass punch we are used to hearing. I use an SMS-1 and I found that after EQ'ing the sub for flat response, it removed much of the wow factor I was used to hearing. I ended up moving my sub to behind my seating area (based on what Hsu owners recommended) that gave me the punch I needed because I was just sitting too far away from the sub.

I'm not sure what else you can do, the sub should be able to give you good wow factor once set up correctly. Play something that has sustained bass like the airplane crash scene in Flight of the Phoenix if you want to test it out.



If all else fails, then the JL is not going to do it for you, then I hope you can return it and try a different sub.

Your receiver settings seem fine, but I would check the phase. Use a 80 hz test tone and set the phase to where it gives you maximum SPL. You need to make sure you are not getting cancellation with your mains in the area of your 80hz crossover. That will cause you lose punch.

warpdrive, are you suggesting I should run it higher than 80 db for movies? I never tried leaving the ARO off before and I will try it now. I would like to keep the Audyssey to "ON" on the Onkyo, as it flattens the overly exaggerated bass I get from my speakers.

Your receiver settings seem fine, but I would check the phase. Use a 80 hz test tone and set the phase to where it gives you maximum SPL. You need to make sure you are not getting cancellation with your mains in the area of your 80hz crossover. That will cause you lose punch.
That's how I determined to leave the phase to on. How do I check that I am not getting a cancellation at the @ XO?

Typically, you would run a test tone that matches your crossover frequency (80hz) and set the phase to the position that gives you maximum output.

- leave the ARO off. I find EQ'ing the sub yields a flat response but often, it removes some of the mid bass punch we are used to hearing. I use an SMS-1 and I found that after EQ'ing the sub for flat response, it removed much of the wow factor I was used to hearing.
Are you saying not to use the ARO or the SMS-1?

Or are you saying to use the SMS-1, but not the ARO?

Typically, you would run a test tone that matches your crossover frequency (80hz) and set the phase to the position that gives you maximum output.
Yeah, that is waht I did that to get to the 0 setting on the phase.

Ok, a quick check on the net gives this method to check for crossover setting:


"STEP #6:
FINAL LEVEL ADJUSTMENT: One last time, adjust the subwoofer level to the
mains exactly as described in step #4 above. Now, use your Pre/Pro or Receiver
pink noise level calibration tones or one of the calibration discs, if that's what you
use, to lastly check the levels of all speakers and subwoofer.
There have been many comments about how the RS meter is not accurate in the
low frequency region, and is also said to differ from meter to meter.
Here is a possible method, using the RS meter, to adjust the subwoofer level to
that of the satellites.
Again, we're assuming that you have already calibrated your satellites to
the same level before this point in time, and we've done steps 1-5 of the
subwoofer setup.
Set your Pre/Pro or Receiver mode to 5 STEREO and shut your subwoofer off.
Set your master volume to approximately -10 dB from reference, or, so that a test
tone (from your test tone disc) will read in the neighborhood of 80-90 dB.
Play an 80 Hz tone from your test tone disc (it should play through all 5 satellites
equally).
Note the reading.
Now, shut your satellites off and turn the subwoofer on and play the same tone
through your sub only.
Adjust the subwoofer level to the same reading that you got when playing just
the satellites.
A crossover only works correctly if the speakers being crossed over together play
exactly the same volume at the crossover point. In adjusting the subwoofer level
with this method, the accuracy of the RS meter becomes irrelevant because the
only thing that matters is that the subwoofer and the mains are at the same level
at 80 Hz (the crossover point).
The meter will read the same at 80 Hz every time. Whether or not it's an accurate
reading, it will level the sub to the mains at the crossover point by this method,
accurately. Since the satellites are already calibrated, the subwoofer will
automatically be exactly at that level at 80 Hz.
I have personally done this test many times and found the subwoofer level to be
within 1 dB of 75 dB (which is the level I calibrate to when using the Pre/Pro
calibration tones), and you can quickly check this method against your calibration
rumble tone method to see if it's of any value in your case. My opinion is that, if
this method is close the the rumble calibration tone, then keep the subwoofer
volume set to the level arrived at by the 80 Hz test tone method.
You can adjust the level of your subwoofer up or down for different source
playback, at will. There is no rule that dictates what level you have to play a
subwoofer at. BUT, you now have the correct settings that will tell you where your
subwoofer should be, in your room, with your associated hardware, as a
reference.
It's a good idea to write these settings down (Pre/Pro or Receiver sub level,
phase, placement position and subwoofer amplifier gain), as you'll forget them
shortly after you change any of them, and it's a good idea to reset them to these
reference settings every so often to see what havoc you may have wrought over
time.
You are now ready to play your system and evaluate the results of your setup
labors."



Going to try this out now....

The next step would be to plot the overall frequency response in the bass range. This can be a bit tideous, but if it seems like something is missing, this it what can find it for you. It can be done manually with multiple test tones or it can be done with the help of a computer using REW software. Are you familiar with that?

The next step would be to plot the overall frequency response in the bass range. This can be a bit tideous, but if it seems like something is missing, this it what can find it for you. It can be done manually with multiple test tones or it can be done with the help of a computer using REW software. Are you familiar with that?

I did that manually but only from 20 HZ to 140 Hz. It' almost flat except I get a dip to 70 db @ 100 Hz and another dip to 70 db @ 140 Hz.

Are you saying not to use the ARO or the SMS-1?

Or are you saying to use the SMS-1, but not the ARO?

Both accomplish the same thing ultimately, so there is no sense using both at the same time if you have both. If you have an SMS-1, you don't need ARO or any other room compensation circuit because the SMS does what the ARO can do but more.

The ARO is used to give you the flattest possible reponse at one or more listening positions by targetting and eliminating one room peak. The SMS is a full EQ which can do that but also allows you to tailor your response just the way you like it (and you can eliminate multiple peaks and choose a "house curve")

Through my trials withe SMS1 I found that usually a slightly exaggerated mid bass hump around 30-40Hz is what gave me that gut shaking feeling. Once I eliminated that peak with EQ, the sub lost that wow factor (but sounding better with music). So I was suggesting to Alex that he try the sub without ARO to see if the wow factor comes back. If so, then ARO is too aggressive in removing the peaks

I did that manually but only from 20 HZ to 140 Hz. It' almost flat except I get a dip to 70 db @ 100 Hz and another dip to 70 db @ 140 Hz.

Don't give up yet, and don't be angry. I hope you don't feel that someone here has tricked you into buying the JL. You know the sub is capable of some high output based on the ARO test. I would definitely disable the ARO for now since it's possible it's attenuating the bass to much. I would then double check all of your settings in your receiver and dvd player. What movies have you tried watching? Try watching the Darla Tapping scene from Finding Nemo. That one shook my whole apartment with my F112.

btw, which HSU did you have? If you had one of the larger HSUs like the 3.3 or HO then you can't expect a huge increase in output from the F112. The 3.3 and HO have some pretty respectable output especially down low. After all, the F112 is less than half the size of the HO. One of the big differences I found between the two, however, was the articulation in the bass and the ability of the JL to completely disappear with music.

xcjago, I don't feel like I was tricked into buying the F112 at all. And "angry" was not the right word to use, I should have said "frustrated" instead. I trust the collective opinion of the members of this forum and I have not been disappointed with my previous purchases based on forum feedback expect for a couple of speaker brands that didn't live up to the hype, in my opinion.
I have the smaller HSU, the SFT-2 which is a 10" sub. The F112 is quite good with music. I see no fault there, just miss the slam I was used to with the HSU. For e.g., the gun shot scene in Open Range sounds so real with the HSU but can't get the same effect from the F112. I was actually expecting a far greater performance from the f112. I expected it to take me there... put me right in the middle of the action. I will play around with the settings again and see where I have gone wrong.

Something is definitely not right. The F112 and the STF-2 are in totally different leagues.

Alex Solomon

I may have missed it, but how is your sub connected? I used the RCA (unbalanced) on my f113, and was happy, but not blown away. Then I saw some posts that suggested that some subs were not correctly summing left and right inputs if using a single connection. Pulled out a "Y" connector, fed the signal to both L&R, BINGO!:D

Sounded much better, confirmed I had gained 3 db with RS meter. I've been backing off on levels ever since (seems like I would just need to lower my sub outut by 3 db ont the Lex, but no).

Give this a try if that's how you're set up.

Something is definitely not right. The F112 and the STF-2 are in totally different leagues.

Now you see why I got frustrated. I expected a night and day difference between these two subs. It's has to be a setup issue but I did all I could. I am going to call JL sometime next week.

Alex Solomon

I saw some posts that suggested that some subs were not correctly summing left and right inputs if using a single connection.

Is this a known issue with the Fathoms? I am using a single RCA connection form receiver to sub.

*edit*

oooops, wrong thread

:o:o:o

The sub is set up 2 db hotter. I even crack it up by 3 db more when I watch a movie. Speaker size is set to small, XO is @ 80 Hz, LFP also @ 80 and phase is set to 0.

If you have the RECEIVER doing bass management, AND you have the filter on the sub on, then you are "double filtering". Turn the LP Filter switch on the sub off.
I'm surprised no one else caught this...

Barry

Alex Solomon

I may have missed it, but how is your sub connected? I used the RCA (unbalanced) on my f113, and was happy, but not blown away. Then I saw some posts that suggested that some subs were not correctly summing left and right inputs if using a single connection. Pulled out a "Y" connector, fed the signal to both L&R, BINGO!:D

Sounded much better, confirmed I had gained 3 db with RS meter. I've been backing off on levels ever since (seems like I would just need to lower my sub outut by 3 db ont the Lex, but no).



ALL subs that are not toys are calibrated to use ONE mono input from a bass managed receiver going into ONE of the RCA inputs. That's why there is a MONO SUB OUT on the receiver.

By Y'ing the cable you are doing nothing more than turning the bass up 6dB, (not 3dB). The 2nd RCA connector is there in case you are using a setup with a stereo (i.e. 2-channel) system.

In fact every sub that has multiple inputs such as 2 x RCA's and 2 x 3-PIN connectors (and even 2 x speaker connections) sum all of these together internally into mono anyway.
With most receivers, you should notice that if all the levels are set at "0" AND the sub calibration is at its "0" or reference that you should get the same 75 dB reference noise nearfield from the sub.

Of course all those reference levels are useful as a starting point and at the very least you have something to return to when you get hopelessly confused...and want to start over.

To further clarify, the "real" THX and Dolby reference level is 85dB, but somewhere about 100 campfire stories ago, some receiver mfg decided that 85dB pink noise frightened people (and pets...). The internal levels and all that that entails (0VU, digital headroom, analog headroom, disc reference level, etc) are still really set at 85.

Some receivers, like the Anthems are smart (and clever) enough to allow you to set the "0" refence either where it belongs or somewhere where "you" like it, to assist you with meter readings, for example.

Barry

If you have the RECEIVER doing bass management, AND you have the filter on the sub on, then you are "double filtering". Turn the LP Filter switch on the sub off.
I'm surprised no one else caught this...

Barry

Nice catch. If that's the case the Alex has the LPF turned on for the sub, then he is cascading filters and likely loosing output in the 40-80 Hz range.

Nice catch. If that's the case the Alex has the LPF turned on for the sub, then he is cascading filters and likely loosing output in the 40-80 Hz range.

LP Filter is set to off from the beginning. LP Freq. is @ 80 Hz but that won't matter since I have the LPG set to off. ELF trim is set to "0". I am going to check all my settings again and run the ARI and audyssey again.
BTW, if I was losing output between 40-80 Hz then when I run sine waves would I notice that, right? When I run sine waves from 20-90 Hz the SPL read between 79-81 at all levels. I did check the XO and the sub and the speaker are playing exactly at the same volume at the XO point which is 80Hz.

Have you tried disabling Audyssey? I've heard that can sometimes screw things up.

Have you tried disabling Audyssey? I've heard that can sometimes screw things up.
I did. If I remember correctly that would make the bass from the speakers undefined and boomy. I have to try it again. Looks like I need to take notes. Sometimes I forget things.

Manville, any news on availabilty in the UK???

Manville, any news on availabilty in the UK???

Hi Simon,
I live in London and have received a F112 about a month ago (extremely fast delivery). There is a company authorised by JLAudio for modifying the Fathoms for 240 and shipping to the UK. The person in charge is a member of this forum and I am sure he will get in contact with you soon.
I strongly recommend both JLAudio and the company shipping to the UK

I also picked up a 240v F113 shipped to Australia - great service and speedy delivery from the supplier - the member who supplied me is 'soundoctor'. After all costs were included the F113 was, in my opinion and while still more expensive, very price competetive with the expected price of an Australian supplied SVS PB13Ultra.

This week I moved my dual F113’s out of the leaky 7500 ft^3 concrete slab 1st floor space into a new enclosed 3500 FT^3 2nd floor (wood sub floor) Music/HT room. The new room is an irregular 22’ X 19’ X 9’ (max dimensions) space. I put the Fathoms in the most logical position in the front of the room just inside the main speakers. After running ARO (Master/Slave mode) and using my Velo SMS-1 to check the room response, I powered up the system and ran some movie and music demos.. There was a huge room induced 50 Hz null at LP but other than that the FR curve was +-4db from 20-150Hz. After some playing the with Q and Phase settings on the SMS-1 and minor sub position changes, I was able to resolve the null and get a respectable looking curve at LP with the subs located as you see in the pics.

In the coming weeks I will be getting a new laptop and loading TrueRTA software to get an even better look at the room response. I pre-wired the room for alternate sub locations and will be experimenting with this and the speaker positions in the in the next few weeks. I also installed some bass traps and wall panel absorbers in the room.

Bottom line is that in this new enclosed space, the F113’s are finally providing the earth shaking LFE that I have always wanted for movies. They have always been very capable subs for music and that has not changed. They integrate beautifully with my other loudspeakers and in the newly treated space sound better than ever but for movies, the Fathoms are finally delivering the performance I have read about from other owners. The combination of enclosed space and wood sub floors allow the Fathoms to shake the house to an almost absurd level. I know that in this forum section, this kind of talk is heresy but I can’t imagine wanting or needing more bass than these subs provide. I’m sure there are better bang for the buck products out there but for me the Fathoms build quality and performance with music and HT make them the most upgrade proof components in my system.
Plasma config.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n86/rmk_01/IMG_1772.jpg
Projector mode
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n86/rmk_01/IMG_1773.jpg
Back wall view
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n86/rmk_01/IMG_1783.jpg

NICE SETUP! (are you in CA by any chance:D?)

Hey, can I ask what your speakers are, as well as the projector and screen you chose? (Im not in any serious hunt for FP, but I've been doing some research on screens if only to imaginatively satisfy a pipe-dream :p)

Thanks, and for the pic as well.

I put the Fathoms in the most logical position in the front of the room just inside the main speakers.
Is it always better to have a pair of subs inside the mains, vs. outside? Or ???

Yes, No. Cal. near Sacramento.

The speakers are Revel Performas (F52,F32 and C52) with an Axiom QS8 thrown in for SB movie duty. The projector is a Panasonic AE900U and the screen is a Optima Grey Wolf 106" manual.

Is it always better to have a pair of subs inside the mains, vs. outside? Or ???

The JL Manual shows the install location I am using as one of the prefered modes for dual subs but there are many options. I suppose I would get more output if I placed them in the corners (corner loaded) but I really don't need more SPL. I will be experimenting with several location options once I get the TrueRTA software setup. Now that the construction is done, the fun part begins.:D

sweet set-up RMK :cool:

Tyvm, RMK! my 2 cents on corner loading, I find that the subs become too easily localizable, at least in my experiences. Im sure it varies with the setup...

Well, I am in SoCal, shucks... :p

Tyvm, RMK! my 2 cents on corner loading, I find that the subs become too easily localizable

was that with one corner or 2 ?

One. Sorry about the confusion (I typed in the plural sense for some reason; perhaps thinking of various models that I had heard). I felt the same way about my own setup, as well as a couple of demo rooms.

RMK, I have a question for you relating to placement. When you moved the subwoofers out of the corner, did you notice the bass sound clearer or "tighter" ?

Because I have my subwoofer in the corner position and I also have an SMS-1 Eq'ed flat and it still sounds a bit boomy. Is it true that moving the subwoofer out of the corner will also improve the decay times ?

Lastly, your bass traps in your room. Did you buy those ? Because they look very professionally done !

Thanks.

Heinrich, the boominess could be phasing issues. If you have variable phasing, you may want to try adjusting that, too.

Aetherhole, perhaps I will start a new thread because I certainly don't want to derail this one. All I will say though is that with the SMS-1, my phasing is 100% correct. Before I had my sub at 0 phase and there was like a 18 dB null centered around the crossover region.

Switching to 180 deg made all the difference. I also put my AV receiver phase to "reverse". instead of normal. Once I did this my response was much flatter around the crossover region.

Thanks.

PS Sorry for any inconvenience.

RMK you have a great looking setup, nice work!

RMK, I have a question for you relating to placement. When you moved the subwoofers out of the corner, did you notice the bass sound clearer or "tighter" ?

Because I have my subwoofer in the corner position and I also have an SMS-1 Eq'ed flat and it still sounds a bit boomy. Is it true that moving the subwoofer out of the corner will also improve the decay times ?

Lastly, your bass traps in your room. Did you buy those ? Because they look very professionally done !

Thanks.

Heinrich, I have not placed the Fathom subs in corners as yet. My first experiment will be to move one of the subs to the back wall. I have corner loaded subs in my old HT room with good results. Luckily, I have never really experienced boomy bass (except in Best Buy;)) so I can't speak to that issue.

Re the bass traps, they are from GIK Acoustics and are well made and reasonably priced.

RMK you have a great looking setup, nice work!

I don't know ... I think it needs more brown:rolleyes:

I don't know ... I think it needs more brown:rolleyes:

Just turn the volume up during the wotw demo scene and you'll have all the brown you could ever want! :p

Nice room and setup. My twins are waiting in the back room for the contractor to start the rebuild of the ht/listening room...can't wait!

RMK,

Great looking room,with just enough audio gear. :)

Revel and JL make for a great combination,dual Fathoms disposed the way you have them provide great results in most rooms.

I have my duals set in a very similar way and the output as well as linearity at listening position is superb.


Again congrats you have a classy setup.

Congrats on your very nice new HT setup Rob. :) The smaller enclosed irregular space with bass traps and room treatments must give you far better acoustics overall. That dip at around 50hz is fairly common with a 3500sqft room with duals up front. I found much the same thing. In my HT the sidewall placement cleaned it up as did leaving one up front and one on a sidewall. Have fun experimenting with that awesome pair of Fathoms. How are you enjoying the new Revels and where do you have them crossed? When I ran full range speakers in my HT acoustics improved the lower I crossed over.

Mr Manville Smith,

Thanks for updating the wallpaper section.Now anyone can have a Gotham or Fathom in a descent resolution. ;)

Radio St-Hubert (in Montreal) should get a Gotham(so I was told)I am running there as soon as it arrives. Probably going to get one.

Congrats on your very nice new HT setup Rob. :) The smaller enclosed irregular space with bass traps and room treatments must give you far better acoustics overall. That dip at around 50hz is fairly common with a 3500sqft room with duals up front. I found much the same thing. In my HT the sidewall placement cleaned it up as did leaving one up front and one on a sidewall. Have fun experimenting with that awesome pair of Fathoms. How are you enjoying the new Revels and where do you have them crossed? When I ran full range speakers in my HT acoustics improved the lower I crossed over.

Thanks John, I will try the side wall placement. The Revels are a very nice sounding speaker. Ideal for my combo HT/Music use. I have the Xover set at 80Hz. Will try dropping it a bit and see what I get.

Update: Good idea on the xover change. Moved it down to 60Hz for the LCR speakers and this is the result.:cool:

http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n86/rmk_01/IMG_1788.jpg

You seem to have a fairly hefty boost (room) at around 20-25 Hz. Two -13 dB cuts! :) Gives some more of that nice headroom we all love.

RMK, could you post a closer up shot with all the grills off?

congrats on the dedicated room RMK ...

now you don't need small subs to hide under side tables ... :)

RMK, could you post a closer up shot with all the grills off?

Sure
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n86/rmk_01/IMG_1793.jpg

Woah! Fantastic!

You have good output down to 15 hz according to that graph, RMK. And that is without the subsonic filter disengaged !

Oh, I think you're room looks stunning. Those JL subwoofers don't look too bad either. :D

Great looking setup!!

Those JL subwoofers don't look too bad either. :D
No doubt. Mark the price down to $1500 a piece and I'll take a pair myself! ;)

This week I moved my dual F113’s out of the leaky 7500 ft^3 concrete slab 1st floor space into a new enclosed 3500 FT^3 2nd floor (wood sub floor) Music/HT room. The new room is an irregular 22’ X 19’ X 9’ (max dimensions) space. I put the Fathoms in the most logical position in the front of the room just inside the main speakers. After running ARO (Master/Slave mode) and using my Velo SMS-1 to check the room response, I powered up the system and ran some movie and music demos.. There was a huge room induced 50 Hz null at LP but other than that the FR curve was +-4db from 20-150Hz. After some playing the with Q and Phase settings on the SMS-1 and minor sub position changes, I was able to resolve the null and get a respectable looking curve at LP with the subs located as you see in the pics.

In the coming weeks I will be getting a new laptop and loading TrueRTA software to get an even better look at the room response. I pre-wired the room for alternate sub locations and will be experimenting with this and the speaker positions in the in the next few weeks. I also installed some bass traps and wall panel absorbers in the room.

Bottom line is that in this new enclosed space, the F113’s are finally providing the earth shaking LFE that I have always wanted for movies. They have always been very capable subs for music and that has not changed. They integrate beautifully with my other loudspeakers and in the newly treated space sound better than ever but for movies, the Fathoms are finally delivering the performance I have read about from other owners. The combination of enclosed space and wood sub floors allow the Fathoms to shake the house to an almost absurd level. I know that in this forum section, this kind of talk is heresy but I can’t imagine wanting or needing more bass than these subs provide. I’m sure there are better bang for the buck products out there but for me the Fathoms build quality and performance with music and HT make them the most upgrade proof components in my system.
Plasma config.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n86/rmk_01/IMG_1772.jpg
Projector mode
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n86/rmk_01/IMG_1773.jpg
Back wall view
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n86/rmk_01/IMG_1783.jpg

I agree with RMK, I too have dual F113's and I get an absurd amounts of bass while watching movies.

Mr Manville Smith,

Thanks for updating the wallpaper section.Now anyone can have a Gotham or Fathom in a descent resolution. ;)

Radio St-Hubert (in Montreal) should get a Gotham(so I was told)I am running there as soon as it arrives. Probably going to get one.

You're welcome! It might take a little while, but we actually listen to some of you guys. ;)

Yes, I noticed that the larger sized wallpapers were simply enlarged versions of the smaller ones. They look a little blurry.

Another glowing review of the F113 - by Larry Greenhill of Stereophile...

Yup. Looks like its now only the third sub to be rated Class A by Stereophile. About time and great review by Larry Greenhill. Its without a doubt, the best musical sub around today.

I recommend the JL Audio Fathom f113 for Class A of Stereophile's "Recommended Components," and urge you to listen to a pair of them. I'm sure you'll be convinced, as I was, that the benefits to your system's soundstaging will be as impressive as they will be in the reproduction of deep bass. My entire system achieved its best performance to date, producing clean, tight, solid bass signals with excellent pitch definition. Great work, JL Audio!

http://www.stereophile.com/subwoofers/907jl/

This week I moved my dual F113’s out of the leaky 7500 ft^3 concrete slab 1st floor space into a new enclosed 3500 FT^3 2nd floor (wood sub floor) Music/HT room. The new room is an irregular 22’ X 19’ X 9’ (max dimensions) space. I put the Fathoms in the most logical position in the front of the room just inside the main speakers. After running ARO (Master/Slave mode) and using my Velo SMS-1 to check the room response, I powered up the system and ran some movie and music demos.. There was a huge room induced 50 Hz null at LP but other than that the FR curve was +-4db from 20-150Hz. After some playing the with Q and Phase settings on the SMS-1 and minor sub position changes, I was able to resolve the null and get a respectable looking curve at LP with the subs located as you see in the pics.

In the coming weeks I will be getting a new laptop and loading TrueRTA software to get an even better look at the room response. I pre-wired the room for alternate sub locations and will be experimenting with this and the speaker positions in the in the next few weeks. I also installed some bass traps and wall panel absorbers in the room.

Bottom line is that in this new enclosed space, the F113’s are finally providing the earth shaking LFE that I have always wanted for movies. They have always been very capable subs for music and that has not changed. They integrate beautifully with my other loudspeakers and in the newly treated space sound better than ever but for movies, the Fathoms are finally delivering the performance I have read about from other owners. The combination of enclosed space and wood sub floors allow the Fathoms to shake the house to an almost absurd level. I know that in this forum section, this kind of talk is heresy but I can’t imagine wanting or needing more bass than these subs provide. I’m sure there are better bang for the buck products out there but for me the Fathoms build quality and performance with music and HT make them the most upgrade proof components in my system.
Plasma config.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n86/rmk_01/IMG_1772.jpg
Projector mode
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n86/rmk_01/IMG_1773.jpg
Back wall view
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n86/rmk_01/IMG_1783.jpg

Rob ... That's one beautiful room, and an excellent write up. Thanks for taking the time to share it with everyone !

Its without a doubt, the best musical sub around today.


A statement like that will without a doubt, be proven wrong.

Let's just say for now that I satisfied my curiousity after 4 hours of critical listening to it and three other capable subs with several friends. My reasons will be posted later. Its Stereophile Class A rated for its exceptional qualities in reproducing music which no other sub up to its price point can match. No doubt about it for me after today. :D

Very nice write up by stereophile.

Very nice write up by stereophile.

Yes it is.

My only concern about his review is that he set the low pass crossover to 40 hz. Seems that a lot of the mid bass sound quality he attributes to the F113s would have actually come from his Quad ELS-989 speakers.

Other comments??

Yes it is.

My only concern about his review is that he set the low pass crossover to 40 hz. Seems that a lot of the mid bass sound quality he attributes to the F113s would have actually come from his Quad ELS-989 speakers.

Other comments??

the frequency response of his mains, the Quad ESL-989 is 30Hz-20kHz, ±6dB

audiophiles want subwoofers only to fill in that missing octave

*edit* oh, i see what you mean, the some of the mid-bass was coming from his mains

Hi all,

1. When changing recievers should I run the auto setup again? I switched from a Elite receiver to the new Integra 9.8 pre/pro

2. What type of "Balanced" cable do I need? I bought a audioquest sub-1 that hooks into my Integra 9.8 but doesent' work at the sub.

Thanks,
M1

What do you mean it doesn't work at the sub? The subwoofer should have an rca input.

So, your saying I need a balanced connection at the pre/pro and an RCA input at the sub. Correct?

Hi all,

1. When changing recievers should I run the auto setup again? I switched from a Elite receiver to the new Integra 9.8 pre/pro

2. What type of "Balanced" cable do I need? I bought a audioquest sub-1 that hooks into my Integra 9.8 but doesent' work at the sub.

Thanks,
M1

1. Yes

2. The 9.8 has both balanced and RCA sub outputs. The Fathoms have both RCA and balanced inputs. It appears that the sub-1 cable is RCA. Just plug it into the line-in (red/mono) RCA input on the fathom.

Hi all,

1. When changing recievers should I run the auto setup again? I switched from a Elite receiver to the new Integra 9.8 pre/proThere should be no need to run the setup on the f113 unless you move it (or a lot of furniture). You do, of course, have to run the setup on the 9.8.

2. What type of "Balanced" cable do I need? I bought a audioquest sub-1 that hooks into my Integra 9.8 but doesent' work at the sub.Any balanced cable should work. Check the switches at the back which you may have to reset.

RMK, not to sidetrack the thread, but I really would like to know your impressions of the bass traps you added to your room. Has there been a major difference in bass quality ?

RMK, not to sidetrack the thread, but I really would like to know your impressions of the bass traps you added to your room. Has there been a major difference in bass quality ?

Good question ... as the room and bass traps are both new, I don't have enough empirical data to give an opinion (do I sound like a politician?:p). I will run some SMS-1 plots and listening tests in the next few days with and with out the bass traps to see if there is visible/audible improvement and post the impressions in another thread.

So, your saying I need a balanced connection at the pre/pro and an RCA input at the sub. Correct?

The Fathom can be operated with unbalanced (RCA) input connections (mono or stereo) OR with balanced (XLR or 1/4-inch TRS) connections (mono or stereo).

If your pre-pro has balanced subwoofer output(s), get one or two XLR cables and run those. If not, then use RCA cables and follow the instructions in the manual for optimal connection.

M1F,

How have you been?

In regards to an XLR cable just go to a good music store and get decent (not super expensive) mic cable. Whirlwind cables are pretty good.

How far is your run from AVR to sub? If not long use RCA single ended sub cable. Heck I think I got some 75ohm serial digital Liberty and some RCA compression ends around here somewhere...

In other words based on the signal and its level don't blow tons of dough on a cable.

A warning to everyone buying "MIC CABLES" at an MI store: Many/most mic cables are incorrectly wired with PIN 1 jumpered to PIN 0 (the shell) THIS IS WRONG!

One can only surmise that it was originally intended to electrocute musicians; but obviously it has fallen short of that goal. All kidding aside, the correct wiring of a 3-pin cable assembly is pins 1 2 3 wired to pins 1 2 3 on the other end.

Even if the source device [the receiver or preamp out] is wired correctly and the destination device [the sub] is wired correctly IF either end has that jumper in place you may get hum or a shock. Most MI cables have this error at the female end, which plugs into the microphone.

Typically so-calld audiophile grades of 3-pin (called XLR cables by many; XLR was a trademark of Cannon; wikipedia has a very cute article about it) cables are wired correctly. It's the MI grade you have to watch out for.

And IF you are using 3-pin balanced connections to drive a sub like the JL Audio, it would be in your best interest to check the wiring very carefully, both visually and with an ohmmeter if possible.

Barry

doah...

So far I've not shocked any lead singers or guitar players. But again I run the sound in a Baptist church so I have a good co-pilot one could say.

Either way just pop the hood off the ends and in less than 10 minutes with a 25 watt soldering gun you still saved a ton of dough.

Thanks for the tip!

After holding out for months and months and looking at a variety of different equipment I got bored today and had nothing better to do.. So I bought an F113. Hopefully I can talk a friend into helping me unload it out of my truck and get it down to my basement to replace my old-school def tech super cube II.

Can't wait! I'll post pics of my setup once we get it in place. :D

After holding out for months and months and looking at a variety of different equipment I got bored today and had nothing better to do.. So I bought an F113. Hopefully I can talk a friend into helping me unload it out of my truck and get it down to my basement to replace my old-school def tech super cube II.

Can't wait! I'll post pics of my setup once we get it in place. :D

yes, please post your review and comparison to the Def Tech

Congratulations to everyone on this thread. It's passed the "why not bose?" thread by about 12,000 views. :D

so are you saying the Fathom F113 is better than Bose!?...