Just by a hair! ;)

I just got my F112 and I think something is wrong. I have it hooked up to my Arcam AVR 350 using the RCA Mono input. When performing ARO, it only registers when the master level is @ +15 cranked all the way clockwise. The same goes for trying to get any bass response watching movies or listening to music. I even tried to explore with changes in the AVR by adjusting the sub level setting etc., but had relatively limited improvement. Am I missing something here or is there something wrong with this unit?

Peteavnj, try hooking up the sub cable to an analog output on a source such as the R or L output of a CD or DVD player and see if you get a substantial level of bass. If you do, then you know the receiver isn't putting out.

I just got my F112 and I think something is wrong. I have it hooked up to my Arcam AVR 350 using the RCA Mono input. When performing ARO, it only registers when the master level is @ +15 cranked all the way clockwise. The same goes for trying to get any bass response watching movies or listening to music. I even tried to explore with changes in the AVR by adjusting the sub level setting etc., but had relatively limited improvement. Am I missing something here or is there something wrong with this unit?

seems to be fairly common unfortunately...try a splitter and connect to R & L on sub for a boost of a few db's.

I just got my F112 and I think something is wrong. I have it hooked up to my Arcam AVR 350 using the RCA Mono input. When performing ARO, it only registers when the master level is @ +15 cranked all the way clockwise. The same goes for trying to get any bass response watching movies or listening to music. I even tried to explore with changes in the AVR by adjusting the sub level setting etc., but had relatively limited improvement. Am I missing something here or is there something wrong with this unit?

Edit: Oops, I see you did run ARO. Is it loud when you run ARO? All kinds of things in my room were rattling when I ran ARO on my F112.

I just got my F112 and I think something is wrong. I have it hooked up to my Arcam AVR 350 using the RCA Mono input. When performing ARO, it only registers when the master level is @ +15 cranked all the way clockwise. The same goes for trying to get any bass response watching movies or listening to music. I even tried to explore with changes in the AVR by adjusting the sub level setting etc., but had relatively limited improvement. Am I missing something here or is there something wrong with this unit?

Peteavnj,

You might have some major peaks in the room, that are not allowing you to enjoy your F112. Do you have acess to REQ or SMS?

I had some big peaks in my room, once I was able to get them down, my F113 came into my room much better.

Michael

Im bummed.Went to my local car stereo guy who is a jl dealer and asked him to order one f113 sub and he says dont do it..Having to many problems with the coil shorting out..Now which one do i buy?

Im bummed.Went to my local car stereo guy who is a jl dealer and asked him to order one f113 sub and he says dont do it..Having to many problems with the coil shorting out..Now which one do i buy?

I've yet to hear of anyone having that problem around here. I don't believe it.

"Car stereo guys" aren't necessarily authorized home audio dealers, so chances are that he couldn't order it for you anyway.

There are no issues with shorted coils. We have had exactly one coil failure on all Fathoms shipped to date.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Went to my local car stereo guy who is a jl dealer and asked him to order one f113 sub and he says dont do it..Having too many problems with the coil shorting out..

JL Audio's car audio dealers cannot order JL Audio home product... Maybe your dealer is talking about JL's automotive subwoofers? I have not had any quality issues at all with JL's home stuff!

glennQ

JL Audio's car audio dealers cannot order JL Audio home product... Maybe your dealer is talking about JL's automotive subwoofers? I have not had any quality issues at all with JL's home stuff!

glennQ

He did show me 4 13w7 car woofers all shorted out.Claims its the same driver as in the home version

A woofer has not ever been built that can't be destroyed by car audio dealers and consumers. Put any woofer in the wrong box, with the wrong amplifier and the wrong seat-to-radio interface and bad things will happen. The only thing the dealer proved by showing you those woofers is that someone abused them.

The advantage of the Fathom is that the whole thing is engineered as a system for performance and reliability by people with deep knowledge and vast experience.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

The allowed distortion level seems high??10% is alot

The allowed distortion level seems high??10% is alot

...not at the frequencies the sub will reproduce. Do some research and you'll find 10% a very respectable level of distortion for a subwoofer.
Have you read any of the reviews on the Fathom?

glennQ

...not at the frequencies the sub will reproduce. Do some research and you'll find 10% a VERY respectable level of distortion for a subwoofer.
have you read any of the reviews on the Fathom?

glennQ

Have read a few..Just wish the velodyne wasnt made in china.Would just buy the dd12

Have read a few..Just wish the velodyne wasnt made in china.Would just buy the dd12

That's not even close to a f113. It would take about three of them to match a f113.

Im bummed.Went to my local car stereo guy who is a jl dealer and asked him to order one f113 sub and he says dont do it..Having to many problems with the coil shorting out..Now which one do i buy?

If there was any truth to this, It wouldn't stop me from buying from JL. The customer service is one of the best, and they would make sure the customer was taken care of.

Michael

That's not even close to a f113. It would take about three of them to match a f113.

Correct, a F112 is about the same performance as a DD15. And the F113 is comparable to the DD18.

That's not even close to a f113. It would take about three of them to match a f113.
As much as I like the JL, let's be fair, for many of us the trade off of some depth and output for the tightness and low distortion of a servo sub, not to mention the remarkable EQ capabilities, make the DD a great choice. If you want more depth , greater output AND all the SQ benifits of the DD, you can step into the larger DD's.

As much as I like the JL, let's be fair, for many of us the trade off of some depth and output for the tightness and low distortion of a servo sub, not to mention the remarkable EQ capabilities, make the DD a great choice. If you want more depth , greater output AND all the SQ benifits of the DD, you can step into the larger DD's.
As long as we are being fair... respectfully, I disagree.

There is added depth and output with the f113 as you suggest, with no sacrifice in regard to "tightness". The f113 disappears with my full range Apogee ribbons and integrates equally well with my Linn and JM Labs based home theater. Accuracy of acoustic and electronic music reproduction favors the f113 from my prospective. While measurable distortion favors the DD's, it's inaudible while listening making it all but a moot point. As for stepping "into the larger DD's", a DD18 is required to arguably equal an f113 in output.

Velodyne makes great products, and I say this as the owner of a DD12, F1200R and the JL f113. However, the DD's are a little long in tooth; it's a 4 year old design. I'm sure Velodyne will no doubt come to market with a MkII model soon.

And as long as we are being fair, for many of us, the the f113 is not a trade off but a significant step forward.

I'd like to step in by saying that after spending considerable time with both JL and DD, I favour the DD's , maybe because I can hear the differance , possibly due to the distortion as I have heard it with running the set-up befor either Eq's or for some other reason....but beyond that, I have three problem areas for bass in my one room (and two in a differant room) that are MUCH better addressed by the DD12 . The SMS-1 does much better than the ARO , but even when used with the JL, it still seems to me to be a bit less than the DD12, but maybe not so much that I wouldn't prefer the combo (JL and SMS-1) just to get the extra depth and extension . I may keep this combo BUT if I am willing to walk away from the added amount of improvement in musicality , and step into a non servo, then , with an SMS-1, there are a nomber of other subs I can consider as well and am poised to start auditioning some non-sealed designs to focus on the potential improvements I have heard in precision in some of the new overbuilt ported designs. Maybe I want it all....just music first and foremost. I'll update with my findings.

I've had both a DD-18 and a FL113 in my HT room for months. If anyone can prove one is audibly better than than the other when properly setup and equalized they deserve a Jakeman Golden Ears award. I plan on hosting a Part 2 minishootout with a half dozen savvy sub fans on November 3. Perhaps some of them can come to a different conclusion. Were talking of 2 highly rated Stereophile Class A subs here after all.

I've had both a DD-18 and a FL113 in my HT room for months. If anyone can prove one is audibly better than than the other when properly setup and equalized they deserve a Jakeman Golden Ears award. I plan on hosting a Part 2 minishootout with a half dozen savvy sub fans on November 3. Perhaps some of them can come to a different conclusion. Were talking of 2 highly rated Stereophile Class A subs here after all.
Jake, if your room has more than one problem area that needs correcting, that should give the DD a significant advantage (and has in my listening tests- blind as well), the ability of a servo with respect to overhang is also an advantage (also demonstrable, in my experiance), the other advantage comes in the fact that when I normally test subs, I take great care in finding great positions within the room to hekp them, but many (perhaps most) people can't place a sub in the position where it works best, and this gives, imo, another benifit to a better implemented bass EQ SYSTEM.
Again, owning and SMS-1, IT IS ONLY THE SERVO AS THE DIFFERANCE FOR ME.

I've had both a DD-18 and a FL113 in my HT room for months. If anyone can prove one is audibly better than than the other when properly setup and equalized they deserve a Jakeman Golden Ears award. I plan on hosting a Part 2 minishootout with a half dozen savvy sub fans on November 3. Perhaps some of them can come to a different conclusion. Were talking of 2 highly rated Stereophile Class A subs here after all.

November 3rd can't come soon enough. Looking forward to your minishootout and the results.

Are you going to equalized each sub? Stupid question, but though I'd ask anyway. :D

Interesting what you say about how the DD-18 and FL113 compare. How much of the differences between subs are removed onced equalized....and the big question...will differences with other subs also lessen.

Jake, if your room has more than one problem area that needs correcting, that should give the DD a significant advantage (and has in my listening tests- blind as well), the ability of a servo with respect to overhang is also an advantage (also demonstrable, in my experience), the other advantage comes in the fact that when I normally test subs, I take great care in finding great positions within the room to help them, but many (perhaps most) people can't place a sub in the position where it works best, and this gives, imo, another benefit to a better implemented bass EQ SYSTEM.
Again, owning and SMS-1, IT IS ONLY THE SERVO AS THE DIFFERENCE FOR ME.

Placement is key for sure, ideally in a spot which requires no or minimal equalization. The SMS makes finding those sweet spots very easy, except for the weightlifting. The FL113 ARO function is at best a single shot filter which may or may not always flatten the peak from my various tests with it. The Velo's built in SMS plus servo adjustment feature is miles ahead in all respects.

When I say both sound quite close sonically, I'm comparing both subs similarly equalized with an SMS controlling the Fathom to put them on a more equal footing. However, when if I compare the Fathom equalized only with the ARO against the DD-18 with its built in equalization, the nod would go to the DD-18 for music but not by much. For HT it would go to the Fathom because of its much higher output especially in the low-mid bass.

The servo control feature is a neat way to control distortion on the DD-18 which I usually leave at its 8 setting for lowest distortion though lower output. The DD-18 has slightly lower distortion than the Fathom but the Fathom's is also very low. If I listen very closely with repeated material, occasionally it seems I hear a difference at the 8 setting but its tough to say. At the 1 setting though, I'd say the Fathom might be preferable.

Regarding overhang that's another tough call between those 2 subs, which I'm hoping to put to the test among the group. At servo setting 1 again I'd agree it may be slightly in favour of the DD-18. I also have another servo FSR-18 Velo, which was renamed the HGS-18 which I may add to the mix though we are also going to compare 2-3 other subs.

November 3rd can't come soon enough. Looking forward to your minishootout and the results.

Are you going to equalized each sub? Stupid question, but though I'd ask anyway. :D

Interesting what you say about how the DD-18 and FL113 compare. How much of the differences between subs are removed onced equalized....and the big question...will differences with other subs also lessen.

Yes all subs will be SMS equalized to level the playing field with the DD-18.

John, aren't you bothered by the severe low frequency rolloff of the SMS-1?

Jakeman,
I have been doing similar tests lately with several others in the biz and fellow hobbyists but these have more often been two at a time and in a few differant locations and rarely with the exact same panel of listeners.
Lately we seem to be heading in two differant directions, but trying to find one that wins both categories: first, Great output and very low - second is musicality.
We have been very happy with the DD AND the JL's musicality and the added bonus of smaller WAF-loving size . The added benifits of the servo have been apparent in some circumstances and at varios servo settings, and placement can be aided by the DD's , as well as by other, outboard, EQ solutions.
As far as output and depth, we have been RECENTLY impressed with some of the newer LARGE units ability to also sound tighter than previously observed in some of the older behemoths , we assumed that these need even better location to do their thing, but practicality as much as waf has actually proven to be MORE limiting in placement options in the places we've been testing so far. While some of us have used laptop solutions for dialing in, we find that few end users we've been around seem willing to do so.
Still seems that we have small, placement-flexible and musical subs, albeit with increasing and pretty stagering output levels .
VS
Large, difficult to place well, high output subs that are getting better at doing music.

The categories may be getting closer except with respect to size and then it comes down to what you can get away with in a given room, accounting for where it will fit, where it sounds good, and what it looks like. Given the success of Satelittes and in-walls
I'd guess there is more R&D money to be spent on improvimg the smaller ones, as it takes a special kind of nut like us here to consider the monkey coffins. I got a friend who wants to order a Conquest, his wife is sloooooowly bending to such an idea.

John, aren't you bothered by the severe low frequency rolloff of the SMS-1?

Hi Mike,

That's a property of the SMS for sure but I wouldn't describe it as severe. As happens at these forums, I believe the whole thing has been blown very much out of proportion. In most rooms and mine is no exception, the room gain at sub sonic bass levels needs to be tamed not accentuated. If I was to show you some pics of my equalized settings you would see deep cuts applied in the 15-20hz zone to bring that room gain in line so as to have better FR linearity. Without that natural rolloff I would need even deeper cuts or to set the subsonic filters higher than 5hz to control room gain.

If you take a look at the charts RMK posted a few weeks ago you can see how substantial the high room gain problem is for him as well. Its typical of most rooms.

John, I wish I had one of those rooms with room gain problems. That just doesn't happen in my room. It's about 6200 cu. ft. and is wide open to the rest of the house. One perk, though, is that I also do not have severe peaks and nulls, so getting flat is easy. It's a bit of a tradeoff.

My room's lack of bottom-end gain is why ported subs work better for me than sealed subs for LFE.

The servo control feature is a neat way to control distortion on the DD-18 which I usually leave at its 1 setting for lowest distortion though lower output. The DD-18 has slightly lower distortion than the Fathom but the Fathom's is also very low. If I listen very closely with repeated material, occasionally it seems I hear a difference at the 1 setting but its tough to say. At the 8 setting though, I'd say the Fathom might be preferable.

I think you have this back to front. A setting of 1 is minimum servo-feedback, allowing more output at the expense of more distortion, may be preferred for Theater use. Setting 8 is maximum servo-feedback, reducing output and keeping distortion lower as one might choose for music use. ;)

Jakeman,
I have been doing similar tests lately with several others in the biz and fellow hobbyists but these have more often been two at a time and in a few differant locations and rarely with the exact same panel of listeners.
Lately we seem to be heading in two differant directions, but trying to find one that wins both categories: first, Great output and very low - second is musicality.

Yes there have been great strides in subwoofer development this year. Like yourself I put a high emphasis on sound quality and musicality which means a sub must have excellent transient response and minimal overhang without sacrificing high output, low distortion and extension. A tough challenge for any designer but recent offerings show much progress in dealing with those tradeoffs. While not yet the equal to the musicality of the Fathom or Velo's, the new Ultra is a big step forward in high output ported designs. For HT though its sound quality is high enough that it would improve sound reproduction in most HTs compared to most ported or sealed subs I have heard. The SQ tradeoff for high output ported sub is not as much as you would think. It really is a terrific sub at its price point if size is less of a factor.

I think you have this back to front. A setting of 1 is minimum servo-feedback, allowing more output at the expense of more distortion, may be preferred for Theater use. Setting 8 is maximum servo-feedback, reducing output and keeping distortion lower as one might choose for music use. ;)


Thanks for catching that mistype CJ. :) I stand corrected and have reversed the 1 and 8.

John, do you place your sub(s) in the corner(s)?

mojomike, do you not place your sub(s) in corner(s)?

My room's lack of bottom-end gain is why ported subs work better for me than sealed subs for LFE.


I hear you, Mike. A pair of Ultra-13s would be an excellent high SQ solution for your room. What I liked most about that sub is that it really did not sacrifice too much SQ for the kickass extension and output. Most everyone in our listening group preferred its SQ to the Paradigm Servov2 which is no slouch.

In my smaller 3500 sq ft HT, I'm currently running the 2 velo-18s and the FL113 which with the coupling have more output than I dare test. :eek::D

John, do you place your sub(s) in the corner(s)?

mojomike, do you not place your sub(s) in corner(s)?

Hi Jim, mine are all midwall and sidewall, to get flat FR in the most seats. Output isn't an issue for me, controlling it down low because of gain can be a challenge. Corners add to room gain.

John, do you place your sub(s) in the corner(s)?

mojomike, do you not place your sub(s) in corner(s)?

Jim, I've got two ported subs near the front L&R corners. The lack of gain on the deep end comes from the large size of the room and the fact that one of the long 30 ft. sides of the room is half open to the rest of the house.

For HT though its sound quality is high enough that it would improve sound reproduction in most HTs compared to most ported or sealed subs I have heard.
Possibly, but I am typically looking at it from the oposite perspective "for a typical music listening room is it enough of a gain to offset any loss of SQ?"....and so far the answer has been no but maybe this will change with eD's and Epiks......?
The SQ tradeoff for high output ported sub is not as much as you would think.
Unfortunately, yes it is, so far....for me and some others.
It really is a terrific sub at its price point if size is less of a factor.
The size question is an important one, but it either is or isn't a concern so factoring that into the equation isn't too difficult. The second part of the size question though is how many places can you locate it trying to find a good spot?

Possibly, but I am typically looking at it from the oposite perspective "for a typical music listening room is it enough of a gain to offset any loss of SQ?"....and so far the answer has been no but maybe this will change with eD's and Epiks......?



I look at subs primarily that way as well, which is why I have three of the top sealed subs in the HT. Overhang and loose sounding bass just doesn't cut it for me. However there are very good lower cost solutions. If you haven't heard the Ultra-13 you should as its in that category of not much giveup in SQ for the big gain in output. That's what I was referring to when I suggested that the the high output tradeoff is not as large as it used to be. Its still not in the same category SQ/output tradeoff wise as the FL113 or the DD-18 but the gap has closed significantly.

I'm looking forward to the eDs and Epiks but like yourself remain sceptical that all the new high output ported subs can compare with the musicality of the top sealed unts. Nevertheless, that Ultra-13 did surprise me as to how much the designers were able to accomplish. If only they had got the amp right, I would recommend it without hesitation.

If only they had got the amp right, I would recommend it without hesitation.

What's wrong with the amp?

I have a question (probably quite stupid) about the connections of my Fathom JL112. I hope someone can help me.
I am using the sub both in my 2-ch and HT set up in the following way.
My CDP (RA Opus 21) has 3 outputs; I use a balanced one for the F112 and a single ended one to a Minimax tubed pre amp. the Minimax is connected to my Nuforce 9SEv2 monoblocs and to my main speakers (Gallo Ref3 II)
My HT pre/pro is connected to another input of the Minimax and also connected to the F112 via the LFE output.
It works very well: I have the two inputs of the F112 connected to 2-ch music and to HT; I can do that because my Opus 21 has more than one output.

If I went to a CDP (or DAC) with only one analogue output, I will have to connect the F112 to one of the output of the minimax. This should not be a problem when I listen to music, but what will happen when I am using HT?
In other words I will still have the sub with both inputs fed in; the HT pre pro will send the LFE to the sub and the main speakers channel to the Minimax. The Minimax will send the output for the main speakers to the monoblocs and also to the subwoofer (above the frequency of the cross-over of the HT pre/pro).
The cross-over of the sub will be disabled to receive the full LFE. So the sub will receive two inputs at the same time: the LFE from the pre-pro and the channels of the main speakers from the Minimax above let's say 80Hz.
Would this be a problem? Is there any way around it?

What's wrong with the amp?

A small percentage of the first batch sold had a defect. The problem was found and SVS replaced the defective amps.

I look at subs primarily that way as well, which is why I have three of the top sealed subs in the HT. Overhang and loose sounding bass just doesn't cut it for me. However there are very good lower cost solutions. If you haven't heard the Ultra-13 you should as its in that category of not much giveup in SQ for the big gain in output. That's what I was referring to when I suggested that the the high output tradeoff is not as large as it used to be. Its still not in the same category SQ/output tradeoff wise as the FL113 or the DD-18 but the gap has closed significantly.
I am sure the significance of the differance will be tied to one's individual judgements and needs, I am probably one who would spend more on an incremental improvement than someone who values their money more closely than the pursuit of excelence and SQ Nirvana.

Thanks for everyones reply - ok, i went back through my setup on the f112. Yes, when running the ARO it was pushing some good bass, the only thing that worried me that the ARO would only run w/ the master level cranked to all the way. I don't know but I have much experience w/ the JL car audio line and never had to crank gains like that (but this Home, so I guess I have to get car out of my head :) Anyway, my Arcam was setup correctly , but my Oppo 980 was not - I had to switch my mains to small and that gave me a little boost (yeah, I know I felt like an idiot) and it is now performing normally. Let me give it some break in time and re-evaluate - but I still don't like having to have that Master Level set so high (I backed it to 3/4 after ARO).

You only need to set the gain high for ARO calibration. You can then set it back to ref and adjust level in you pre/pro or use the gain to set level with an spl meter or your auto eq.

I wonder if JL Audio will realease a 15 or 18" driver,to make a f115 or f118 ? ;)

One f115 could have near Gotham output and an f118 move more air than the Gotham.

I wonder if JL Audio will realease a 15 or 18" driver,to make a f115 or f118 ? ;)

One f115 could have near Gotham output and an f118 move more air than the Gotham.

If there is ever a F118, it's gonna be a good $10-15K! The damage one can do with 10-15K in subwoofers, is astronomical!!!!:eek:

but at least you get braggin rights for "sexiest" 18" subwoofer out there. :D

I don't know if it would be logical to create another product to compete with their own Gotham. I'd like to see them create something ported or perhaps something with passive drivers.

If there is ever a F118, it's gonna be a good $10-15K!
That may be a tad of an exaggeration, but I was thinking the exact same thing. :)

That may be a tad of an exaggeration, but I was thinking the exact same thing. :)

no, not really.

if we extrapolate the motor size of the JL 13W7 in the gotham/fathom to an 18" version, in addition to the VC's, cone, etc, the driver alone will cost about 3x that of a single 13".

the sheer size of that driver (and weight), as well as the power plant requirements (which would exceed that of a dual 13"), would point to an enclosure that is probably bigger than a gotham (or at least close in size).

with the Gotham's price close to 5 digits, I dont see anyway an F118 would come in at a minimum couple thousands above that.

I wonder if JL Audio will realease a 15 or 18" driver,to make a f115 or f118?

JL Audio's patented "OverRoll™ Surround" and "Floating-Cone™ Attach Method" (http://home.jlaudio.com/products_subs_pages.php?page_id=5) lets their 13" driver have the typical cone diameter of a conventional 15" sub...
Do I need to bring up excursion? ;)

glennQ

One of the guys over in the 20K forum wrote that one of his friends who has a High Emotion Audio Pipe Dream system purchased 2 Gotham's for his 2 channel setup. How about that!!

I would love to hear that system, two Gothams!!!

This is the Fathom thread, but on the 20K forum, there's a thread on the Gotham and a gent posted some photos of his HT with a single Gotham. I think he's ordering another one!!!:eek:

I just have to say that after close to 9 months I am still deeply in love with F113! What an awesome piece of engineering marvel! Amazing...


Djoel

I wonder if JL Audio will realease a 15 or 18" driver,to make a f115 or f118 ? ;)

One f115 could have near Gotham output and an f118 move more air than the Gotham.

no, they need to make a gotham 218 :D:D:D

Can anybody tell me how much performance difference between the F113 and the F112.
Is it 2-3 db max output or is it closer 4-5 db.
Also how much louder does it play below 25hz basically does it move a lot more air down low.
Thanks guys,
Gabor

The difference between the F113 and F112 is 3dB of output and 1hz of extension.

Below 25hz, the Fathoms will not have as much output as something like an SVS PB13 Ultra. This is because the Fathom is a much smaller, sealed design, while the SVS is a large, ported sub. In the mid to upper bass, however, the Fathom F113 does very well, even surpassing the big SVS.

The difference between the F113 and F112 is 3dB of output and 1hz of extension.

Below 25hz, the Fathoms will not have as much output as something like an SVS PB13 Ultra. This is because the Fathom is a much smaller, sealed design, while the SVS is a large, ported sub. In the mid to upper bass, however, the Fathom F113 does very well, even surpassing the big SVS.

Interestingly, Ilka's results on hometheatershack state that the F113 has more output at ALL frequencies when the SVS PB13 Ultra is in "sealed" mode - the difference is actually quite small. The SVS will have more output below 25hz in the ported modes. Anyone who is pushing either sub to their limit should consider multiple subs anyway.

It seems the two JL subs are very close in performance.
Normally I listen 5-6 db bellow refference so it seem like either sub should be fine.
I don't think I would miss too much without that extra 1hz extension altough the extra headroom is always nice.
It's a tough call which one to get I just don't want to regret not gettting the bigger for a few hundred dollar more.

See if your dealer has both on display. Then you could listen to them both.

[QUOTE=mojomike;11890098]A small percentage of the first batch sold had a defect. The problem was found and SVS replaced the defective amps.[/QUOTE

Indeed, it was a very small percentage of the early amps on the new PB13s that had an issue. I've had mine balls to the walls and it is a superb performer. My humble HT gets so compressed and produces such great ouptut yet they blend well with my 7.1 system. Superb to say the least.

Would a f113 work well in a 4500 cubic foot room ?

Or would I need something bigger......

maybe a DD15 or a DD 18.....

2 subs is not an option...

Thanks

Shelly

Shelly, a f113 will outperform either a DD15 or a DD18 in output, not the other way around.

Would a f113 work well in a 4500 cubic foot room ?
Works well in mine. About the same size.

Would a f113 work well in a 4500 cubic foot room ?

Or would I need something bigger......

maybe a DD15 or a DD 18.....

2 subs is not an option...

Thanks

Shelly

Ours is 4500 cubes, too ... no problem.

So that's why my bass is so ballsy my room only has 3417.75 cubes...

No wonder I have dual f113's,a f112,a TC Sounds dual TC-3000 15",dual TC1000 12" and it is BOL ZEEE in a gigantic 800cu ft room (room cut in half ....12" high down to 5.5" ...).

Ahem...ahem :p

Just here to say hello to AVS people, taking a year of buying audio. :o To buy tools (14K purchased...) to build...subs.

And yes I enjoy my Fathoms today as much as when they arrived ! :D

So a F112 should have roughly the same output as a DD15?

So a F112 should have roughly the same output as a DD15?
Yup , the differances would be the servo control and the better room correction system in the DD.

So that's why my bass is so ballsy my room only has 3417.75 cubes...
Try 2040 cubes like me. And I was considering a second f113! :eek::eek:

Well I figured there would be no better place then to post my 100th post then here, in the JL F113 thread. I have been a member of countless forums you name it, I have posted their. Anyhow, this is the first time I have had a 100 post in any forum, guess that makes me a bit of a voyeur huh;)? No this isn't a big deal to some of you; some of you guys got like over 10,000 post but it's a small feet for me.

Now back on topic. I have had my JL's now for a little less than a year and still to this day they still blown me away. I watched Mr. Brooks a couple of nights ago the scene were Demi Moore gets in a shootout......, of my god unbeleivable is all I can say. These things are incredible.:D

Some of you have large rooms, wow. My twin F113s will be in a room 24.5x17.5x7.5 = 3215 cubic feet, and it's not a small room, but the ceiling height is what is the limiting factor.

After hearing Pulse at John's mini-shootout I'm going to prewire the room for 2 more F113s (just in case!)

Some of you have large rooms, wow. My twin F113s will be in a room 24.5x17.5x7.5 = 3215 cubic feet, and it's not a small room, but the ceiling height is what is the limiting factor.

After hearing Pulse at John's mini-shootout I'm going to prewire the room for 2 more F113s (just in case!)

That will give you four F113's?:eek::eek::eek:

Bogg what's the rest of system look like?

Heres mine: Klipsch speakers F7's towers, RC-7 center, surronds RS7's, Rotel 1095 amp, marantz 7600 DVD player, Monster Power 5100 power conditioner, Anthem D2 processor, two JL F113's, Mitsubishi DLP 73 inch TV, Xbox 360, PS3, and analysis 12 gauge speaker wire.

Hi I'm the Man,
nice setup!

6 channel speaker setup:

ATC Signature 100 active towers
ATC C6 active centre front and rear
ATC 50 active rears

2 Fathom f113
B&W ASW-4000 sub to make the rear 50s "full-range"

Anthem D1 (just going into the shop to make it a D2)
Equitech 7.5Q balanced power (4x20amp circuits)
DVD and hddvd will be decided in the next few weeks
Esoteric P70/D70 cdp and dac
ATC SCA1 with phono - stereo preamp
bunch of expensive and not so expensive cables
Sony Black Pearl with Prismasonic FE1500r lens on a Screen Research CP2 motorized 2.35 100 inch wide screen
Rives level 3 designed listening room (currently being constructed)

Can't wait till it's done, my fathoms have been out of use for waaaay too long - I bought them thinking I'd get the room done quickly but then a baby came along and the ht plans were put on hold.

Very nice setup The Bogg! Have you thought about maybe looking at a Gotham or two:eek:? By the way you'll love your D2 when it gets upgraded!

so in a 3000 cub feet room (but with an open back to the rest of basement) you guys think that one F113 will be more than enough?

and it will pretty much beat any other two subs (ex. earthquake) out there (except the PB13's)

i really want two subs, but can only afford one F113...but it sure sounds like it can hold its own with just about any pair of subs out there (for less than $2500)

so in a 3000 cub feet room (but with an open back to the rest of basement) you guys think that one F113 will be more than enough?

and it will pretty much beat any other two subs (ex. earthquake) out there (except the PB13's)

i really want two subs, but can only afford one F113...but it sure sounds like it can hold its own with just about any pair of subs out there (for less than $2500)

The F113 would probably work in a room that size, but I think you'd be better off with 2-PB13's as you seem to desire 2 subs keeping your budget in mind. Reviews and testing seem to point to the SVS being a super sub woofer. Craig's sub has given it a higher numerical rating then the JL, but that number does not mean the JL is NOT a spectacular product. It is!!! However, there are other items that I'd consider which are:

Can you accommodative the size of the large SVS boxes? These boxes are not small by any means dependent upon point of view of course. Large to some may be just right for another.

Is there a conflict in the decor of your theater that would prohibit the SVS versus the JL product? WAF? Specific decor tastes? The fit and finish on the SVS is excellent and they are also available in Piano Black, the same as the JL. However, again you get into that area of a large box versus the smaller size JL. Subjective analysis.

I own the JL-113 and in my situation it's the perfect fit with it's size, output and presentation. If I had a lot more space and cash flow was restricted and wanted 2 subs, I'd opt for the PB13. Or... you could purchase 1 JL-113 and wait until more financial resources are available and add the second. YMMV

The F113 would probably work in a room that size, but I think you'd be better off with 2-PB13's as you seem to desire 2 subs keeping your budget in mind. Reviews and testing seem to point to the SVS being a super sub woofer. Craig's sub has given it a higher numerical rating then the JL, but that number does not mean the JL is NOT a spectacular product. It is!!! However, there are other items that I'd consider which are:

Can you accommodative the size of the large SVS boxes? These boxes are not small by any means dependent upon point of view of course. Large to some may be just right for another.

Is there a conflict in the decor of your theater that would prohibit the SVS versus the JL product? WAF? Specific decor tastes? The fit and finish on the SVS is excellent and they are also available in Piano Black, the same as the JL. However, again you get into that area of a large box versus the smaller size JL. Subjective analysis.

I own the JL-113 and in my situation it's the perfect fit with it's size, output and presentation. If I had a lot more space and cash flow was restricted and wanted 2 subs, I'd opt for the PB13. Or... you could purchase 1 JL-113 and wait until more financial resources are available and add the second. YMMV

Mozvz,

great comments, thanks...we are on the same page for sure

for me...two PB13's are just too big, and with the amp issues they are having it makes it easier to lean back to the F113

having said that, i can get TWO PB13's for $500 more than one F113, thats what makes it tough...:)

i think i will go with one F113 and see how it performs...i can always sell a kidney and buy a second one later...:D

thanks again!

brad

Mozvz,

great comments, thanks...we are on the same page for sure

for me...two PB13's are just too big, and with the amp issues they are having it makes it easier to lean back to the F113

having said that, i can get TWO PB13's for $500 more than one F113, thats what makes it tough...:)

i think i will go with one F113 and see how it performs...i can always sell a kidney and buy a second one later...:D

thanks again!

brad

Brad: Aesthetic (color/finish/etc.) and size issues aside, I would NOT be concerned about the initial amp problems that SVS experienced. SVS is a very customer interactive firm. Any problems you would incur would be corrected. I would trust my hard earned money with them hands down. They are very, very good with their focus on the client base.

However, if size is your issue then it's a no brainer. I actually bought a Hsu VTF-3 MK3 with turbo previous to the JL and in my room, it just overpowered the room with it's size. Sound and impact were excellent, yet I had a claustrophobic feeling in my room. Eventually I sold it and went to the JL.

By the way, keep the kidney!!! Two kidney's are much more valuable then dual subs!! :D

Has there been any resolution to the auto turn on/shut off problem that some users have been experiencing? Neither of my F113's will shut off when set to auto. I remember Manville Smith was asking users to send him their setup info to research the problem, and I did so a couple months ago but haven't heard any updates since. It would be nice to be able to put the grills back on someday.

The last suggestion I saw was to use both left and right inputs with a one into two splitter, driving both inputs increased the sensitivity.

Has there been any resolution to the auto turn on/shut off problem that some users have been experiencing? Neither of my F113's will shut off when set to auto. I remember Manville Smith was asking users to send him their setup info to research the problem, and I did so a couple months ago but haven't heard any updates since. It would be nice to be able to put the grills back on someday.

We have done some research on it and are testing some solutions to make the auto turn-on work more consistently with a wider range of upstream equipment. Using a y-splitter and driving both left and right inputs can definitely help in many cases as it increases the drive voltage to the turn-on circuit.

The f113 should turn-off after about 1/2 hour to 45 min. in auto mode with no signal driving it... if that is not the case, we need to arrange to service your units to correct that problem.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Mozvz,

great comments, thanks...we are on the same page for sure

for me...two PB13's are just too big, and with the amp issues they are having it makes it easier to lean back to the F113

having said that, i can get TWO PB13's for $500 more than one F113, thats what makes it tough...:)

i think i will go with one F113 and see how it performs...i can always sell a kidney and buy a second one later...:D

thanks again!

brad

I've tried both the JL Audio Fathom and the SVS PB13. Hands down, the SVS kicks some heavy butt.......check out Live Free or Die Hard...I've never heard such refined and powerful bass as I have with the SVS. The JL Audio doesn't even come close...yes it's refined but lacks the "fun" factor of a SVS and it's half the cost!

Kudo's to the SVS guys, an amazing and world class product.:D

Oh lord, not again.:(

I've tried both the JL Audio Fathom and the SVS PB13. Hands down, the SVS kicks some heavy butt.......check out Live Free or Die Hard...I've never heard such refined and powerful bass as I have with the SVS. The JL Audio doesn't even come close...yes it's refined but lacks the "fun" factor of a SVS and it's half the cost!

Kudo's to the SVS guys, an amazing and world class product.:D

did your amp die yet ?

I've tried both the JL Audio Fathom and the SVS PB13. Hands down, the SVS kicks some heavy butt.......check out Live Free or Die Hard...I've never heard such refined and powerful bass as I have with the SVS. The JL Audio doesn't even come close...yes it's refined but lacks the "fun" factor of a SVS and it's half the cost!

Kudo's to the SVS guys, an amazing and world class product.:D

Wrong answer getech;). There are several guys that have done shootouts as well and they preferred the JL F113 over the SVS PB13. Furthermore, if you look at Craigs numbers between them 109 to 103, I hardly think the JL, "doesn't even come close", as you have stated. In fact Craig actually posted in some of his other post the two of them are actually the same when it comes to music.

I think why people who decide to buy the JL will utlimatley purchase one are for a few reasons. 1. being it's an outstanding product. 2. You can't beat the size of these things they are beautiful and leave a very small footprint. 3. You can daisy chain up to 10 of them. 4. The master/slave control is great, one sub controls all of them. 5. ARO is a great feature for us less techinal guys.

I have owned SVS products and love them. I owned a PB12 plus/2. It was an outstanding product. Although I have never personally heard a PB13 it sounds like it's one outstanding product. Having said that, I would never go with anything other than my F113's. With the JL you pay for outstanding sound/performance and the many features that come with the F113.

...snip

Although I have never personally heard a PB13 and it sounds like it's one outstanding product. I would never go with anything other than my F113's. With the JL you pay for outstanding sound/performance and the features of the F113.

Thanks for such an insightful opinion. :rolleyes:

I was part of the shootout with the F113 and U13. Both are fabulous subs. Can't imagine someone not being happy with either.

After hearing a guy's quad 18 IB woofer setup though I'm thinking my twin f113s may need to be cloned! Good thing I've prewired the room in case more wooferage is needed, but that will be determined after the room is finished (another month or so).

Both subs are excellent performers and each one does some things better than the other so it does become a matter of what attributes are more important. Having had the opportunity to critically listen to both subs in two shootouts over several hours with a half dozen friends I'd make the following observations.

JL113 outperforms the Ultra-13 in articulation, musical presentation, WAF, mid to upper bass output, headroom and bandwidth, attack and decay of bass transients, quality and reliability of amp, lower noise and distortion, one shot equalization, no port chuffing. Contrary to some reports, output as measured using the CEA2010 standard favours the JL113 except when the Ultra-13 is in maximum output mode tuned at 20hz where both subs have the same distortion weighted output.

Ultra-13 bests the JL113 in visceral impact, reproduction of organ music, low bass output and extension, variable tuning, significantly lower price .

Overall the consensus favourite at the shootouts was the JL113 based on sonic quality and overall performance in music and HT but that quality comes at a big difference in price. With all due respect to other people's ranking, the Ultra-13 is a fine sub but its not the equal of the JL113.

Very nice post thanks for your insight.

Both subs are excellent performers and each one does some things better than the other so it does become a matter of what attributes are more important. Having had the opportunity to critically listen to both subs in two shootouts over several hours with a half dozen friends I'd make the following observations.

JL113 outperforms the Ultra-13 in articulation, musical presentation, WAF, mid to upper bass output, headroom and bandwidth, attack and decay of bass transients, quality and reliability of amp, lower noise and distortion, one shot equalization, no port chuffing. Contrary to some reports, output as measured using the CEA2010 standard favours the JL113 except when the Ultra-13 is in maximum output mode tuned at 20hz where both subs have the same distortion weighted output.

Ultra-13 bests the JL113 in visceral impact, reproduction of organ music, low bass output and extension, variable tuning, significantly lower price .

Overall the consensus favourite at the shootouts was the JL113 based on sonic quality and overall performance in music and HT but that quality comes at a big difference in price. With all due respect to other people's ranking, the Ultra-13 is a fine sub but its not the equal of the JL113.

Hi Jakeman - that's what I got out of your sub thread (I think you had an Axiom sub - the 500?, the Velo 18 and a Paradigm Servo in there too!).

But what some people don't realize is that the Fathom retails for about $5500 up here, whereas the Ultra is $1700 (before shipping). So, that is a significant price difference to say the least (the Velo DD-18 is 5 grand retail here too).

But all that being said - this is a JL thread, not a this vs. that thread. Would hate to see this thread shut down because of a few "my sub is better than your sub" comments.

Suffice to say the owners of the SVS will like it better, the owners of the JL will like it better, and leave it at that. I've heard neither - but other than some amp issues with the Ultra (which SVS responded to immediately) both sound like excellent subs and excellent values.

For me, I doubt the Fathom can be beat in terms of size and performance. No offense to anyone, but IMO it doesn't take a lot of talent or research to build a sub the size of a fridge and have it go low and play well. On the other hand, build a sub that sight wise is almost invisible in a room (like the Fathom) but sound wise puts those 400lb monstrosties to the test - now that equals a great value.

Just think - one day we'll have a sub the size of a shoe box that can play as clean and as loud as the dual 18" A9-700! Wouldn't that be something!

HI Kpt_Krunch. Those C$ prices look way too high even for B & M retail. I know people who picked up new DD-18s at around $3,200 and new JL113s at $3750. Still too high for what they are IMO and worth buying almost new at Audiogon or elsewhere and shipping them north.

Across the 2 shootouts we compared the Paradigm Servo v2, Ultra-13, JL113, DD-18, Axiom EP600 and also the smallish EP400.

Interesting post John, thanks. I will be having a little get together at my house this coming weekend and the focus will be on my F-113’s and the PB13 Ultra. Not sure at this point but it may be two of each.:eek: I am sure at least one of the attendees will post his take on this provocative sub-ject. Personally, I’m just interested in hearing the Ultra(s).:cool:

Both subs are excellent performers and each one does some things better than the other so it does become a matter of what attributes are more important. Having had the opportunity to critically listen to both subs in two shootouts over several hours with a half dozen friends I'd make the following observations.

JL113 outperforms the Ultra-13 in articulation, musical presentation, WAF, mid to upper bass output, headroom and bandwidth, attack and decay of bass transients, quality and reliability of amp, lower noise and distortion, one shot equalization, no port chuffing. Contrary to some reports, output as measured using the CEA2010 standard favours the JL113 except when the Ultra-13 is in maximum output mode tuned at 20hz where both subs have the same distortion weighted output.

Ultra-13 bests the JL113 in visceral impact, reproduction of organ music, low bass output and extension, variable tuning, significantly lower price .

Overall the consensus favourite at the shootouts was the JL113 based on sonic quality and overall performance in music and HT but that quality comes at a big difference in price. With all due respect to other people's ranking, the Ultra-13 is a fine sub but its not the equal of the JL113.

Good stuff Rob. ;) I will be looking forward to you starting a thread and posting your impressions.

HI Kpt_Krunch. Those C$ prices look way too high even for B & M retail. I know people who picked up new DD-18s at around $3,200 and new JL113s at $3750. Still too high for what they are IMO and worth buying almost new at Audiogon or elsewhere and shipping them north.

Across the 2 shootouts we compared the Paradigm Servo v2, Ultra-13, JL113, DD-18, Axiom EP600 and also the smallish EP400.

Oh yeah, I know you can get them cheaper. But if you check the MSRP's - the Velo is over 5 grand (the place I saw them at - of course I could talk to the owner...) and I believe it was on JL's site I saw the F113 for $5500 cdn and the Gotham for around $13,000 (can't remember - both way out of my price range).

But that Gotham .... if the Fathom is that good, I can only imagine what the Gotham must sound like. Too bad you guys didn't have that one to test. Though I still doubt it'd beat Jesse's quad 18" IB's in that small bedroom. I think I'd be too afraid to even go in that room - I can't imagine what that bass would do to your internal organs :)

for those of you with two F113's do you daisy chain them?

when I wired my theater I ran seperate sub cables from both sub locations to my component room...

...with plans to combine them with a splitter and just plug directly into my Marantz receiver

if i daisy chain them now i have to look at the cable on the floor...:D

thanks

brad

You could hook the in-wall cables together and use that as the daisy-chain cable. That might allow you to hide a cable to just one subwoofer easier that a long one between the two.

for those of you with two F113's do you daisy chain them?

when I wired my theater I ran seperate sub cables from both sub locations to my component room...

...with plans to combine them with a splitter and just plug directly into my Marantz receiver

if i daisy chain them now i have to look at the cable on the floor...:D

thanks

brad

I am using dual F113’s in the master/slave config (daisy chained). Note, the cable between them in this config must have balanced connects.

You can just run them as dual master subs running ARO on one or both. For maximum flexibility with your existing cables, you could pick up a Velo SMS-1 and run them in a dual Master config. That would allow you to EQ the summed output of both Fathoms on the SMS-1 and or use ARO to tame a single frequency peak on one or both of the Fathoms.

I ran ARO on the Master Fathom then used the SMS-1 to flatten the rest of the frequencies. The nice thing about the SMS-1 is that it shows you the result of all this EQing in real time.

How concerned would you be to buy a F113 second hand or even new in box from an unauthorized seller? The JL Audio site clearly states that they will not honor any warranty work without the original reciept from an authorized dealer and that the warranty is not transferable.

I have a local dealer I could buy from but auction prices look tempting.

How concerned would you be to buy a F113 second hand or even new in box from an unauthorized seller? The JL Audio site clearly states that they will not honor any warranty work without the original reciept from an authorized dealer and that the warranty is not transferable.

I have a local dealer I could buy from but auction prices look tempting.

You would be rolling the dice. Of course if there was a problem, you still can pay for JL to repair it.

If the price was attractive enough, I'd do it.

How concerned would you be to buy a F113 second hand or even new in box from an unauthorized seller? The JL Audio site clearly states that they will not honor any warranty work without the original reciept from an authorized dealer and that the warranty is not transferable.

I have a local dealer I could buy from but auction prices look tempting.

I agree with Mike. Looking at the price difference between your dealer and the Audiogon price of new or used would be the contributing factor. If buying used, I'd need to look at the seller and check his feedback of course. Personally, I'd go the dealer route unless his selling price is over the top. That's just me.

just looking for honest recommendations on whether to go with 1 or 2 f113"s..
room size is 16x18, upstairs and above garage... there are no connecting rooms, and the room will be nicely soundproofed... im an avid movie watcher and music listner (some gaming)... i enjoy feeling my movies, but by no means do i want to go overboard... if 1 will do the job very well, then i prefer to save the $$$... just hoping to get some opinions from the experienced!!!
thanks....

just looking for honest recommendations on whether to go with 1 or 2 f113"s..
room size is 16x18, upstairs and above garage... there are no connecting rooms, and the room will be nicely soundproofed... im an avid movie watcher and music listner (some gaming)... i enjoy feeling my movies, but by no means do i want to go overboard... if 1 will do the job very well, then i prefer to save the $$$... just hoping to get some opinions from the experienced!!!
thanks....

Have you considered twin f112's? In your room, that would be an excellent choice.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Manville,

I'm actually thinking of using twin f112s also, instead of one f113.

My room is L-shaped and I don't want to overload the room mode by corner-loading, nor lose some power by only having one driver in a less-loaded position.

What are the virtues of 2 subs exactly?

Please help with reasons for me to go that route--the $$ difference is substantial!

Thanks for the help,
pa.

just looking for honest recommendations on whether to go with 1 or 2 f113"s..
room size is 16x18, upstairs and above garage... there are no connecting rooms, and the room will be nicely soundproofed... im an avid movie watcher and music listner (some gaming)... i enjoy feeling my movies, but by no means do i want to go overboard... if 1 will do the job very well, then i prefer to save the $$$... just hoping to get some opinions from the experienced!!!
thanks....
I have one f113 in a room almost the exact same size and it really is amazing and fills the room with palpable bass. I've never experienced twin f113s, so I can't say whether it would be overkill, but I know lots of guys here have two and love it.

Have you considered twin f112's? In your room, that would be an excellent choice.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.
I think that's an excellent recommendation. In retrospect, it's probably what I should have done. At this point it's tough to convince the wife I need a second f113. :D

Hello,

I would appreciate any comments on these subwoofers. jl f113, velodyne dd-15, revel b15.

Room size is 2100 cubic feet but it is open to kitchen and dining. Total would be < 4000 cubic feet.

It will be played at moderate levels, and music > ht.

lets put equalization and price factors aside......and assume after perfect integration with mains.

Thank you

Manville,

I'm actually thinking of using twin f112s also, instead of one f113.

My room is L-shaped and I don't want to overload the room mode by corner-loading, nor lose some power by only having one driver in a less-loaded position.

What are the virtues of 2 subs exactly?

Please help with reasons for me to go that route--the $$ difference is substantial!

Thanks for the help,
pa.

The benefit of well-placed, distributed dual subwoofers (not co-located in the same spot) is smoother frequency response over a wider seating area and also additional headroom (around 3dB more in most cases).

Co-located dual subwoofers simply give you more headroom (about 6dB more).

I have a 3000 cubic foot room, and rarely play my movies above -15 below reference level. My speakers are bookshelves that I cross over between 80 and 100 hz. I have read here that the F112 does better in the upper frequencies so I am leaning toward that, but not at the risk of over taxing it on bass heavy passages. Do you think at those levels and in that size room that the 112 is enough, or do I need to step up to the 113. By the way, I can't afford two 112s.

Thanks
Greg

Manville--that is very helpful information!!!

Thanks a lot. I keep telling my buddies about JL home stuff & can't wait for your high frequency speakers to come out...

I have a 3000 cubic foot room, and rarely play my movies above -15 below reference level. My speakers are bookshelves that I cross over between 80 and 100 hz. I have read here that the F112 does better in the upper frequencies so I am leaning toward that, but not at the risk of over taxing it on bass heavy passages. Do you think at those levels and in that size room that the 112 is enough, or do I need to step up to the 113. By the way, I can't afford two 112s.

Thanks
Greg

Greg, the f112 is a pretty capable performer... it only gives up about 3dB to the f113, so if you listen at lower levels as you state you won't be sacrificing anything. I run a pair of f112's myself, and I have never "wished I got a V8". :D

I got a Integra 9.8 pre/pro this week and plan on setting everything up this weekend. Should I run the ARO on the Fathom F113s before setting up the Audyssey or the Audyssey before the ARO. I don't know that I will even like the Audyssey but I would like to run it and see how it sounds.

I got a Integra 9.8 pre/pro this week and plan on setting everything up this weekend. Should I run the ARO on the Fathom F113s before setting up the Audyssey or the Audyssey before the ARO. I don't know that I will even like the Audyssey but I would like to run it and see how it sounds.

You should run ARO first.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

OK, a question about the set up of two f113s. To use them in the master-slave mode, I would have to put one on each side of my screen. I would have the option of putting them in the corners, about 16' apart or move them inside the speakers so that they would be 9' apart. The room is 16' x 25' x 9.5' high. Which is likely better?

Second option is to put the second sub in the back of the room, again in a corner. Since the second row is on an 8" riser, this would put the second sub in a "hole" with three feet from the back of the riser to the back wall. If I go for this setup, I cannot run the subs as master-slave. But, I can eq them separately and then use Audyssey Pro (tech is coming in to do this) to get things right. I wonder if the Audyssey Pro setup would "make up" for not having the master-slave.

Any suggestions? (Manville, HELP)

My room is 21’X19’X9’ and I prefer this location.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n86/rmk_01/IMG_1793.jpg
I use the master/salve config, have a Velo SMS-1 and lots of acoustic treatment panels. I have tried outboard of the mains and moving one to the back of the room and there isn’t much difference so I stuck with this symmetrical location. I ran ARO first then used the SMS-1 to flatten the room response. The response is highly variable based upon seat/mic location. I'll be interested in your results with Audyssey.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n86/rmk_01/IMG_1796.jpg

What does the response look like before ARO, after ARO and with Audyssey, before the SMS-1?

OK, a question about the set up of two f113s. To use them in the master-slave mode, I would have to put one on each side of my screen. I would have the option of putting them in the corners, about 16' apart or move them inside the speakers so that they would be 9' apart. The room is 16' x 25' x 9.5' high. Which is likely better?

In my experience, inboard would be better (9' apart), but your mileage may vary. In my room I have one in a corner and one about 5 feet from the corner on the same wall as the mains. It works very well.

Second option is to put the second sub in the back of the room, again in a corner. Since the second row is on an 8" riser, this would put the second sub in a "hole" with three feet from the back of the riser to the back wall. If I go for this setup, I cannot run the subs as master-slave. But, I can eq them separately and then use Audyssey Pro (tech is coming in to do this) to get things right. I wonder if the Audyssey Pro setup would "make up" for not having the master-slave.

Any suggestions? (Manville, HELP)

I'm not familiar enough with the Audyssey Pro's bass tuning capabilities to give you a solid recommendation. You can always run multiple Fathoms independently and ARO them individually... this often works well and allows you to set the phase of the two subs independently, which can be very useful in a situation where they are at significantly different distances from the main seat.

Don't mean to get off topic but I have a couple of questions for msmith_JL. When are the new full range JL speakers suppose to be out and how much will they cost?

Second option is to put the second sub in the back of the room, again in a corner. Since the second row is on an 8" riser, this would put the second sub in a "hole" with three feet from the back of the riser to the back wall. If I go for this setup, I cannot run the subs as master-slave. But, I can eq them separately and then use Audyssey Pro (tech is coming in to do this) to get things right. I wonder if the Audyssey Pro setup would "make up" for not having the master-slave.
Any suggestions? (Manville, HELP)Depends on what you mean by Audyssey Pro. If you mean the stand-alone SEQ, it can EQ two separate subs independently. If you mean the Pro software use with the MultEQ XT in an AVR or prepro, that is unlikely. However, I would still run ARO independently on the two subs and then Audyssey.

My room is 21’X19’X9’ and I prefer this location.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n86/rmk_01/IMG_1793.jpg
I use the master/salve config, have a Velo SMS-1 and lots of acoustic treatment panels. I have tried outboard of the mains and moving one to the back of the room and there isn’t much difference so I stuck with this symmetrical location. I ran ARO first then used the SMS-1 to flatten the room response. The response is highly variable based upon seat/mic location. I'll be interested in your results with Audyssey.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n86/rmk_01/IMG_1796.jpg

very impressive Rob!:) looks very good, with a great natural FR. Well done my friend.

speaking of Audyssey, don't which version is the one being discussed here, but keep in mind that the Audyssey MultiEQ XT (not the pro version) has some serious issues with the lower band of the LFE channel. I tried both the 3806 and 4308 Denon versions, and both had really adverse effects on the lower end of the spectrum (<30hz). Some more info here:
http://avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9792196#post9792196

hope that helps

ps- if you got a free ticket to your place, count me in for the GTG :p

Don't mean to get off topic but I have a couple of questions for msmith_JL. When are the new full range JL speakers suppose to be out and how much will they cost?

I wish I could give you an answer but we have not yet announced dates or pricing for this project. It is still in the development phase.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

I use the master/salve config, have a Velo SMS-1 and lots of acoustic treatment panels. I have tried outboard of the mains and moving one to the back of the room and there isn’t much difference so I stuck with this symmetrical location. I ran ARO first then used the SMS-1 to flatten the room response. The response is highly variable based upon seat/mic location. I'll be interested in your results with Audyssey.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n86/rmk_01/IMG_1796.jpg

Overall it looks good Rob but I think you can improve things. :) It will mean experimenting some more with placement though the JLs look sweet aligned symetrically up front. What's bothering me is that huge boost at 63hz and the smaller boost at 35hz. I've found its better to move subs around so that you are ideally just using cuts. Even those JLs with their huge amps would benefit from not boosting. Also did you play with the elf trim rather than make those huge cuts in the 20s, again just trying to use minimal outboard equalization where possible to keep ringing to a minimum.

very impressive Rob!:) looks very good, with a great natural FR. Well done my friend.

speaking of Audyssey, don't which version is the one being discussed here, but keep in mind that the Audyssey MultiEQ XT (not the pro version) has some serious issues with the lower band of the LFE channel. I tried both the 3806 and 4308 Denon versions, and both had really adverse effects on the lower end of the spectrum (<30hz). Some more info here:
http://avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9792196#post9792196

hope that helps

ps- if you got a free ticket to your place, count me in for the GTG :p


Hi Sherv,

The FR only looks this good in one mic location (where I sit:p). I think John's comments above are spot on. The main boost is at the x-over for my mains and likely a cancellation issue. I have played with the phase adjustments but to no avail. I will have a week off during the holidays and will be (per John's reccomendation) trying out different placement options. I will also take pics of the SMS-1 sweeps before and after ARO and with and without EQ via the SMS-1 to document the process. This stuff is so hardware and room dependant not sure there is much value in sharing the info here but if there is interest I'll start a thread.

Hi Sherv,

The FR only looks this good in one mic location (where I sit:p). I think John's comments above are spot on. The main boost is at the x-over for my mains and likely a cancellation issue. I have played with the phase adjustments but to no avail. I will have a week off during the holidays and will be (per John's reccomendation) trying out different placement options. I will also take pics of the SMS-1 sweeps before and after ARO and with and without EQ via the SMS-1 to document the process. This stuff is so hardware and room dependant not sure there is much value in sharing the info here but if there is interest I'll start a thread.

yes, I wholeheartedly agree with john. The end FR looks very good...I like it. However, there is way too much boost at the 63hz mark, which undoubtedly will bring some coloration to the acoustic signature, possibly ringing. Moving the subs and playing with placement is a must for sure, but still, not a bad looking FR at the end regardless.

will be following very closely....very interesting stuff, and again, congrats...looks like a killer system! ;)

yes, I wholeheartedly agree with john. The end FR looks very good...I like it. However, there is way too much boost at the 63hz mark, which undoubtedly will bring some coloration to the acoustic signature, possibly ringing. Moving the subs and playing with placement is a must for sure, but still, not a bad looking FR at the end regardless.

will be following very closely....very interesting stuff, and again, congrats...looks like a killer system! ;)


Thanks Sherv, it is a labor of love.

OT warning! BTW, have you tried the Pulse DVD on your subs? The computer room scene (not sure which ch) really brought my F113's and a pair of PB13's to their knees. Much groaning, rattleing and complaining from the subs. Similar to John's Sound Hound Organ CD. I'd be interested in how your subs handle that content.

RMK,
WHAT???? the PAIR of F113s was beaten into submission by Pulse?
Damn. After hearing it on the Quad 18inch IB Avalanches it's looking like a couple more F113s are in the cards for me. Wish the Conquest and Castle weren't so big and fugly, but they are what they are!

Wish the Conquest and Castle weren't so big and fugly, but they are what they are!

Yes they are and don't forget the eD A7-900.:eek:

Don't get me wrong, four F113's would be really cool but I'm not sure thats the answer to this problem. We tried it with all four going and things didn't improve. Better setup might have helped but it seemed to me that both subs just could not play that really LF content at loud levels.

IB or really big (and fugly;)) may be the only way.

RMK,
if you get a chance, would you mind trying it without the sms in the loop - just to satisfy my curiosity (and a few others...). I haven't listened to my pair of f113s in a loooong time while waiting for the room to be done (a month or so away from completion) but I remember them shaking the bejesus out of me without distorting so I'm surprised at what I'm reading. The only other time I've heard of Pulse causing distortion on fathoms or the svs unit is when it was run through an sms (at John's sub get together)

I know John will chime in about this but I just want to see if the distortion is possibly related to INPUT clipping from the sms as opposed to distortion from the woofers themselves. Perhaps Manville would care to comment, but from what I understood the f113 has a limiter so it shouldn't sound too distorted even when grossly overdriven. Pulse is fairly bass heavy but so is WOTW, FOTP etc......

If you look at the Pulse waterfall charts, Asher, which I don't have handy you would see just how intense Pulse is from 17hz to around 70hz so its no surprise its bringing the pair of FL113s or pair of Ultra13s to its knees at moderate to louder volumes .

One possible issue may be that huge boost at 63hz which may be exaggerating the signal too much. In our tests we never applied boosts only cuts, so at a minimum it would be worth running again without the boosts. Also Rob, have you upgraded the SMS firmware to 2.13? If you keep the sub input gain in the -5 zone it won't make much difference, maybe a slightly steeper rolloff below 20hz, however if you run the sub signal over unity into the SMS I would suggest upgrading the SMS firmware to the latest v. 2.13.

RMK,
if you get a chance, would you mind trying it without the sms in the loop - just to satisfy my curiosity (and a few others...). I haven't listened to my pair of f113s in a loooong time while waiting for the room to be done (a month or so away from completion) but I remember them shaking the bejesus out of me without distorting so I'm surprised at what I'm reading. The only other time I've heard of Pulse causing distortion on fathoms or the svs unit is when it was run through an sms (at John's sub get together)

I know John will chime in about this but I just want to see if the distortion is possibly related to INPUT clipping from the sms as opposed to distortion from the woofers themselves. Perhaps Manville would care to comment, but from what I understood the f113 has a limiter so it shouldn't sound too distorted even when grossly overdriven. Pulse is fairly bass heavy but so is WOTW, FOTP etc......

Good point re the SMS-1. I will give that a try. The unusual thing is WOTW plays fine at the same volume. I tell you that Pulse DVD is possessed.;)

If you look at the Pulse waterfall charts, Asher, which I don't have handy you would see just how intense Pulse is from 17hz to around 70hz so its no surprise its bringing the pair of FL113s or pair of Ultra13s to its knees at moderate to louder volumes .

One possible issue may be that huge boost at 63hz which may be exaggerating the signal too much. In our tests we never applied boosts only cuts, so at a minimum it would be worth running again without the boosts. Also Rob, have you upgraded the SMS firmware to 2.13? If you keep the sub input gain in the -5 zone it won't make much difference, maybe a slightly steeper rolloff below 20hz, however if you run the sub signal over unity into the SMS I would suggest upgrading the SMS firmware to the latest v. 2.13.

I have down loaded the 2.13 upgrade to my PC and will load it this weekend. At the GTG session I ran a separate SMS preset with just the PB13's and used the Automatic EQ option. All the demos were used with this setup for both sub pairs. I don't recall the specific EQ settings but I'm sure there were boosts applied. The guys were not very enthusiastic about listening to frequency sweeps with all that cool demo material waiting:)

Good suggestions John, I will try the Pulse demo without the 60Hz boost and see if the F113 still emits a death rattle.

Thanks Sherv, it is a labor of love.

OT warning! BTW, have you tried the Pulse DVD on your subs? The computer room scene (not sure which ch) really brought my F113's and a pair of PB13's to their knees. Much groaning, rattleing and complaining from the subs. Similar to John's Sound Hound Organ CD. I'd be interested in how your subs handle that content.

I could have seen that with a pair of F113's, but surprised to hear that all 4 engaged had issues! Actually, not very surprising now that I think about it. The Pulse has tremendous amounts of energy from 16.4hz up to upper 60's (see waterfall charts), and even at moderate levels it demands a lot of headroom and clean power plant.

case in point, in my setup, both Crown K2 amps start clipping at -11dB reference!:eek: Now, the issue is not the subs as they are still displacing very cleanly at those levels, but rather that the energy demand on that passage is so strong, that I am seeing some major AC sag on my line, possibly dropping to 100VAC. Each Crown K2 is running bridged at 2500W per sub, but with the sag, I'm sure it is dropping considerably, possibly to 1600-1800W!!! Easy to predict by interpolating chuck's measurements:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11650937#post11650937
In stereo mode, each channel at 4 ohms:
Chuck's test @ 20hz, 0.075% THD @ 120VAC = 723w
Chuck's test @ 20hz, 1% THD @ 96VAC = 424w
You can see what the impact on 2500W will be due to line sag! :o

These two amps are running on their own separate 20A circuit breaker, and there is still some sag! I don't know how you are setup in your room, but with 4 subs rated at 2 x 2500W and 2x750W, if you are running them from the same AC line, you will definitely get some VAC sag which will cause your subs' power plants to drop below rated output, which will cause them to behave as described....at least in this passage.:)


Another point would to reiterate is the aforementioned boosting at 63hz (and 32hz). Again, there will be an increase demand of power right in the middle of this passage at those frequencies, and having this much boost in EQ will be a major contributor.

Again, I'll use my example: The first "final" equalization had some substantial amount of boosting around 40hz and 65hz:
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f38/ssabripo/AVA18%20measurements/twintowers_onesub_eq.jpg
It was pretty decent, but at very high energy levels, you could tell there was coloration at those frequencies at high reference.

I moved the subs ever so slightly, and used less boost all around, except for that nasty null still present at 35-40hz. Still, the single filter at 40hz with 4db gain helped out, and no major increase was used:
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f38/ssabripo/AVA18%20measurements/twintowers_bothsubs_eq.jpg
The result was a huge decrease in coloration and no residue of ringing.


Both of these issues (VAC line sag, and EQ boosting) probably contributed to your situation, as they did for mine. Hopefully this information is useful.

So does Pulse have significantly more "torture potential" to subs than WOTW? That's not the impression I got from Craig's thread. Speaking of which, he ran a 12.5hz feed into the fathom at high volume without any strange sounds (as far as I could tell from the post).

A pair of f113s plus a pair of pb13s has pretty much the same displacement as 4 18 inch woofers so there should be some serious headroom available.

The power amp issues related to voltage sag are a good thought.

Yes I believe that to be the case because of the sheer intensity of the signal, no other scene that I know packs that much wallop . However WOTW does provide powerful amplitude down to the single digits which Pulse does not, so it is also a good torture test. As is FOTP for that heavy stuff in the 25-45hz zone.

Good comments Sherv! That helps explain what may have blown Jesse's amp when we were testing his IB several weeks ago. We played FOTP right after Pulse. Maybe Rob's right and Pulse does take possession of our gear if played too loudly. Or we were possessed to be even sitting there getting hit with those pulsing waveforms at 125-130db :eek: :cool:

I believe the 4 Avalanche 18"ers have more displacement that the drivers in 4 JL113s but I don't have the data at my fingertips. Sherv do you know? Jesse would know but he doesn't hang around these forums as much these days.

So does Pulse have significantly more "torture potential" to subs than WOTW? That's not the impression I got from Craig's thread. Speaking of which, he ran a 12.5hz feed into the fathom at high volume without any strange sounds (as far as I could tell from the post).

A pair of f113s plus a pair of pb13s has pretty much the same displacement as 4 18 inch woofers so there should be some serious headroom available.

The power amp issues related to voltage sag are a good thought.

There is something about "Pulse" that seems to give many subs a hard time. It may not be as good of a test as WOTW because it doesn't cover as wide a spectrum of frequencies. It seems to primarily oscillate between two very heavy tones. Played at high volume, it does make my ported subs work very hard. Interestingly enough, my SB12's don't sweat it at all. They just seem to ignore the lower, deeper tone while the ported subs doggedly try to reproduce it.

A 12.5hz tone through a Fathom shouldn't cause much of a problem since it would be mostly low-filtered out by the sub.

Craig's post indicates that the fathom's woofer was moving very vigorously with the 12.5hz tone, even though there was no output per se.

The other thing is, RMK has a lot of "cut" on the sms which means that the output to the subs is really cut down in the low low bass. Looks like 12db of cut at the lowest 2 bands. And yet it still induced distortion? Something isn't right imho, that's why I just want to see if taking the sms out of the loop changes anything.

Mike, you noticed your ported subs work harder with Pulse, but the fathoms are sealed!

A main reason why this track causes so many problems with subs has to do with how quickly the amp/drivers can respond to that fast changing high amplitude signal. That's my hypothesis why we heard such terrible chuffing and groaning from the Ultra13 at levels where the other subs were becoming more linear. Those incredibly powerful peaks coming in such short time stress the hell out of any amp whose damping factor or rise time is not up to stuff. That creates too many non-linearities in the driver which get compounded and the whole sub system goes haywire. That's one reason ported subs with mediocre plate amps have a really tough time at lower levels compared to the subs with bigger Class D amps.

Thanks for the input guys. The pairs were each running on new dedicated 20 amp circuits I added with the new room. Interesting that WOTW has lower content than Pulse. The F113's have no problem with WOTW Ch5 but I have had my Triplite Power conditioner shut down during Ch5 if I am really pushing it. The only thing running on that circuit (16 amp) is my Plasma, the SSP and Sunfire 400-5 Power Amp.:confused:

I'm thinking the culprit may in fact be the SMS-1. I will bypass it and see what happens.

A main reason why this track causes so many problems with subs has to do with how quickly the amp/drivers can respond to that fast changing high amplitude signal. That's my hypothesis why we heard such terrible chuffing and groaning from the Ultra13 at levels where the other subs were becoming more linear. Those incredibly powerful peaks coming in such short time stress the hell out of any amp whose damping factor or rise time is not up to stuff. That creates too many non-linearities in the driver which get compounded and the whole sub system goes haywire. That's one reason ported subs with mediocre plate amps have a really tough time at lower levels compared to the subs with bigger Class D amps.

I'd say that a much more likely cause for stress is feeding a huge signal to a ported sub below it's tuning frequency. If the sub is tuned to 20hz and you feed an enormous signal in the range of 16-18hz (Pulse), the woofer is getting no longer getting support from the air in the box and it is out of control. Even with a low filter applied, it's not a brick wall and there is still plenty of signal getting through.

Sure that is an issue, but the observations being reported here again are consistent with a clipping amp. An amp running out of gas would produce the kind of effects that keep getting reported. Its a problem I've always had with compromised ported subs: lack of dynamic headroom for cleanly reproducing peaks and transients. That's why I like using Pulse more than any other torture track because it pushes the sub amps to the limit so we see how well the whole system responds under stress. I'm sure peoples sub choices would change considerably if they had a better idea how much dynamic headroom they had from those amps hidden inside the enclosure. That is far more important criteria than say whether a sub driver/port can go a few hertz lower with slightly higher output.

I regularly use Pulse as a demo on my SVS PB13 Ultra subs. Never any clipping, always one hell of a lot of headroom. Quite frankly I have never heard anything like it, clean and undistorted bass. This for under $3K for TWO of these subs. Has anyone else tried this setup with Pulse? :D

John,

IIRC the 4 18inchers have displacement of about 24L which is about the same as 4 Fathom F113s. If you have 2 F113s and 2 PB13s you should have roughly the same output as 4 18 inchers. Therefore, if you are getting ugly noises etc... something must be wrong in the setup. I understand it's a difficult piece (Pulse), but it's not like the subs are pansy-weights or anything!

I regularly use Pulse as a demo on my SVS PB13 Ultra subs. Never any clipping, always one hell of a lot of headroom. Quite frankly I have never heard anything like it, clean and undistorted bass. This for under $3K for TWO of these subs. Has anyone else tried this setup with Pulse? :D

Really, at what levels? All subs go into distress with Pulse depending on the input signal, but they do behave differently and the Ultra gives off quite a bit of audible distortion and chuffing at high levels just before clipping then it gets worse. Two subs give you more headroom but if you play Pulse loud enough and listen carefully you will hear the onset of the distress. I like using this track to find out at what level the audible artifacts set in because every sub behaves differently. Some subs handle it way better than others depending on design and protective filters/circuits. And yes lots of amp headroom is key to reproducing this track cleanly. That's where the huge headroom of 2500W Class D amps in the FL113 have a great advantage over the usual smaller Class AB plate amps in many subs, though even a pair of FL113 subs can be brought to heel with this track at high volume. The JL113s distort far less than the Ultra13 overall though the Ultra13 in 20hz mode closes that gap.

The only sub I have heard reproduce Pulse cleanly at high output has been Jesse's IB with its 4 18"s . You are just not going to get there with only 2 commercial subs if that is your objective thought more subs are always better.

I regularly use Pulse as a demo on my SVS PB13 Ultra subs. Never any clipping, always one hell of a lot of headroom. Quite frankly I have never heard anything like it, clean and undistorted bass. This for under $3K for TWO of these subs. Has anyone else tried this setup with Pulse? :D
If I understand correctly, RMK has both two F113's and two Ultras running at the same time, and he is getting the same issues. Jakeman and the rest of their GTG confirmed this as well. The levels at which you are playing vs where they are pushing these subs must be different. What is your reference level, and what size room are you running them on?

After hearing about all of these noises, I wanted to see for myself what sort of output I could get out of one PB13 with "Pulse" before the sound became unpleasant. These are the #'s I managed in all four operating modes, measured 1m from the sub, uncorrected Radio Shack SPL measurements, with only the PB13 running. The room is 6200 cu. ft. wide open to the whole house.

20hz tuning...121db
15hz tuning...120db
10hz tuning...118db
sealed..........117db

There was never a sound resembling a "fart". The sound never became unplesent due to severe distortion. I did note some port chuffing in all ported modes, but if the rest of the speakers were running, it wouldn't have been noticeable. I'm not sure if I was maxed out, but I really doubt there was much left in the tank. I now really doubt that it is possible to bottom out a PB13. Nothing broke, nothing shut down. It may be bullet-proof.

I believe the highest CEA2010 output data measured by Illka for both the Ultra13 in 20hz mode and FL113 was avg. 115.8db between 40-63 hz at 2 metres before distortion limited the output for both subs.

Without knowing signal input its hard to draw comparisons but it does sound like you are close to the limits with your measurements at 1 metre. You have to be careful when driving an amp into sustained clipping. Even though it won't fry the voicecoils like a tweeter, its not healthy for the sub. Instantaneous clipping at peaks won't harm anything but it does make for a crappy distorted sound which is where the additional amp headroom comes in handy.

John, I can't make any direct comparisons with standardized measuring because these were indoor measurements, not outdoor ground-plane measurements. Also, these are not precise sine sweeps, but a movie sound track. I do believe I was very close to my limits.

I regularly use Pulse as a demo on my SVS PB13 Ultra subs. Never any clipping, always one hell of a lot of headroom. Quite frankly I have never heard anything like it, clean and undistorted bass. This for under $3K for TWO of these subs. Has anyone else tried this setup with Pulse? :D

why are you posting this in a JL thread ?

He's posting it here because we're "talking" about Pulse and how it seems to hurt F113s and PB13s.

The distortion sounds I heard were not subtle. It didn't take a critical ear to note that it sounded like crap at a level that didn't seem crazy high. Hurry up RMK and try it again without the SMS just to satisfy our collective curiosity!

He's posting it here because we're "talking" about Pulse and how it seems to hurt F113s and PB13s.

The distortion sounds I heard were not subtle. It didn't take a critical ear to note that it sounded like crap at a level that didn't seem crazy high. Hurry up RMK and try it again without the SMS just to satisfy our collective curiosity!

....also be sure to update the firmware on the SMS-1 before testing...to satisfy our collective curiosity. :)

This is going to take a few hours so the "collective curiosity" :p will have to wait until Sunday. JL may be conducting their own test with the Pulse DVD so this will be explained/resolved one way or the other.

BTW, note to Velodyne and others re firmware updates. PLEASE! go to a USB interface format. I had to scrounge around for an old laptop with a 9 pin serial port in order to do the SMS-1 update. I actually want to try the old version first and bypass any EQ. Then upgrade and do the same. I'm sure the upgrade will blast all of my existing EQ presets.

Of course, I will also bypass the SMS-1 altogether as the first test. ;)

Rob, there are RS-232 to USB cables :) it's what I used.
though I agree that manufacturers should get into the 90's and use USB's!!

BTW, note to Velodyne and others re firmware updates. PLEASE! go to a USB interface format. I had to scrounge around for an old laptop with a 9 pin serial port in order to do the SMS-1 update. I actually want to try the old version first and bypass any EQ. Then upgrade and do the same. I'm sure the upgrade will blast all of my existing EQ presets.

Of course, I will also bypass the SMS-1 altogether as the first test. ;)

Or you could have bought a USB/serial adaptor like most of us and saved yourself the scrounge. :p

Or you could have bought a USB/serial adaptor like most of us and saved yourself the scrounge. :p


Having fried (my term) the PROM of a Parasound C2 when "upgrading" with said USB/Serial adaptor, it's once burned, twice shy around here.:o:D

JL may be conducting their own test with the Pulse DVD so this will be explained/resolved one way or the other.



Hey I missed this first time around. Now that would be neat if we get Manville's take on this track. Just don't tell me the FL113 breezes through it. It would be nice to know where the clipping point is and under what conditions. :)

It may take a while for us to get that test done... CES is in a couple of weeks and we're all pretty slammed.

Manville--where will I find you guys at CES?

Well, with my move from Philly to Raleigh i seem to have lost my set up mic. Have the cable, but no mic. Anyone know how to order a replacement? can't find part number either.

Manville--where will I find you guys at CES?

North Hall #3718 (Mobile Audio Area)

For us, CES is primarily a mobile audio event (CEDIA being our primary home event). We will have an exploded Gotham on display and our Home Division personnel will be there to answer any questions, but there is no other home products display or demo.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Thanks Manville--I'll see you next year at CEDIA then...

Manville,

When I run ARO I had to turn the gain up to 3 O'clock. Should I leave it there or dial it back to zero before running Audyssey from my Onkyo receiver? I have the F112.

Manville,

When I run ARO I had to turn the gain up to 3 O'clock. Should I leave it there or dial it back to zero before running Audyssey from my Onkyo receiver? I have the F112.

My name isn't Manville but... I'd run the ARO with the sub at whatever level needed for calibration, then listen to the system and adjust the level for the best response. Then try the Audyssey AFTER I had the system sounding as best as I could get it on my own.

glennQ

Manville,

When I run ARO I had to turn the gain up to 3 O'clock. Should I leave it there or dial it back to zero before running Audyssey from my Onkyo receiver? I have the F112.

The level used for A.R.O. calibration has nothing to do with the actual level at which sub will be calibrated to the rest of the system for operation. A.R.O. is a closed-loop setup and has no knowledge of or interest in the pre-pro's signal. It is not uncommon to have to dial the sub's gain pretty high to calibrate A.R.O. This is to get the level of the test signal well above the room's noise floor (to ensure an accurate measurement). In 99% of the cases, you will need to turn the sub's level back down to achieve a proper integration with the rest of your system.

The more low frequency noise is in a room, the higher you have to set the level on the Fathom to calibrate... the bigger the room, the higher you have to set it as well... Many people fail to *ahem*:p read the manual thoroughly and attempt calibration with their HVAC system running and then find that they can't get enough level for calibration, too.

If you're using your receiver's or your pre-pro's subwoofer level setting features, you can set the Fathom's Level Mode on "reference" immediately after ARO calibration (this mode defeats the level knob), and use your receiver/pre-pro to set levels correctly to integrate with your entire speaker system.

So in a nutshell:

Run ARO FIRST (and don't worry about the position of the level knob needed to do it)
Switch to REFERENCE Level mode (if you don't have enough level or prefer to have the knob work, switch to Variable)
Adjust levels with your pre-pro or receiver
Perform other calibration settings.

Hope that answers your questions.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Thank you both. Will try to calibrate again for the fourth time. Hope I get right this time.

Anyone here play Quake (video game) when it came out 10 years ago or so? Well my favourite power-up was always Quad-power.

Now I've got Quad-power coming to my home by way of a second pair of F113s!!!!! Whoo-hoooo, Santa Claus is bringing on some serious bass! :)

Anyone here play Quake (video game) when it came out 10 years ago or so? Well my favorite power-up was always Quad-power.

Now I've got Quad-power coming to my home by way of a second pair of F113s!!!!! Whoo-hoooo, Santa Claus is bringing on some serious bass! :)

Yes, played Quake and was addicted to the game like many other folks. If I recall, I sucked at Quake as I did in most video games and was always looking for cheat codes. :)

Bogg: You have 4, I repeat, 4 F-113's in your room?? :eek: Could you post photos of your room? Would truly enjoy seeing them. Congratulations.

Charles

Ex-Quake 3 addict here. Cheat codes are for n00bs!!!!

Now I've got Quad-power coming to my home by way of a second pair of F113s!!!!! Whoo-hoooo, Santa Claus is bringing on some serious bass! :)
All I can say is:
For Those About To Rock, We Salute You!

:eek::D:cool:

lol.

Charles,
I'll gladly post pictures when the room is done - in a month or so. It's a Rives level 3 design, optimized for 2-channel with a 6.x surround setup. It's a tightly sealed room so 2 F113s would probably have been more than enough but opportunity happened to be knocking. I was a bit hasty buying my first pair of the F113s a year ago because I didn't start room construction until much later than originally planned (new baby), but things are now on track. Prices have come down significantly and there's lots of new competition, although nothing small and attractive and powerful!

I had considered the Castle or the Conquest...love the big, long-throw 18inchers! But they were too damn ugly and home-made looking. My second pair are in the satin finish, but they'll be positioned away from the first gloss pair anyway. Can't wait to hear them all!

For those of you having problems finding a local dealer, audiogon has f113 and f112 on their site. The prices are quite attractive IF the auction does not drive them up in the next day or so.

I had some time today so I ran the F113’s minus the SMS-1 with the Pulse demo. The SSP was set to the same gain (-20) as was used during the GTG. I then upgraded the SMS-1 to Ver 2.1.3. The results point to the old ver SMS-1 being the problem.

This is what I did:

Played Pulse demo with old ver SMS-1
Result: Distortion (server room scene with and without EQ applied)

Removed SMS-1 from the LFE chain.
Result: Pulse played without distortion

Upgraded SMS-1 to 2.1.3 played Pulse demo
Result: played without distortion (with and without EQ applied)

Here are FR graphs of the upgraded SMS-1. I am getting a lot of room boost down low. I tried to remove boosts and cuts but was forced to leave big cuts @ 20-30 Hz plus the 12db boosts in at 44 & 80Hz. I will be trying different locations for the Fathoms during the next week and hope to resolve the peaks/nulls via placement.

NO EQ
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n86/rmk_01/SMSno_EQ.jpg

EQ applied
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n86/rmk_01/SMSEQ.jpg

Conclusion: It appears that the old version of SMS-1 software was the primary cause of the distortion we heard at the GTG. If I push the volume higher I start to get some distortion but not a severe as before the SMS-1 upgrade.

Very interesting. I was suspecting that all along.

RMK,
Glad to hear you found the problem, and even more glad to hear it wasn't our fault! :D

Suggestion: Try the "ELF trim" on the Fathoms to tame that very low frequency bloat (instead of the bottom two bands of the SMS-1). It might work better.

Very interesting. I was suspecting that all along.

Me too Mike.

John, which version of the software did you have when we were over? Guess we'll have to repeat it?! :p

RMK,

how high could you go before the onset of audible distortion in the Pulse scene?

RMK,
Glad to hear you found the problem, and even more glad to hear it wasn't our fault! :D

Suggestion: Try the "ELF trim" on the Fathoms to tame that very low frequency bloat (instead of the bottom two bands of the SMS-1). It might work better.

Yes, you're off the hook (for now;)).

I'll try the Fathoms ELF trim but since I use the ref setting I was trying to do it via the SMS-1.

RMK,

how high could you go before the onset of audible distortion in the Pulse scene?

The gain setting on my SSP wouldn't really be relevant but it was about -15 when it started to lose it. I didn’t take any SPL readings, too much going on and not enough hands;).

Without knowing more about Rob's distance to the subs, SPLs at the mic, room size, input signal etc its difficult to draw any comparisons or conclusions based on RMKs data with the test we ran in November. Using v2.12 with SMS gain set to -5 would not cause distortion on its own. Running a higher processor signal with reference at 85 db at the sweet spot in an acoustically treated room which needs more sub gain would be the primary cause of audible distortion in demanding tracks. That high signal level places much more stress on the single subs. One thing was clear, of all the subs we tested at a similar high signal input several did not perform well at all with the Ultra13 being the worst offender with very annoying chuffing. The FL113 relatively speaking was a good overall performer.

I'm currently running v2.13 and cannot tell an audible difference at normal levels (ie 75db} at the sweet spot, though the display shows slightly less rolloff below 20hz.

The gain setting on my SSP wouldn't really be relevant but it was about -15 when it started to lose it. I didn’t take any SPL readings, too much going on and not enough hands;).

I thought the gain settings on the ssp should be relevant. If you calibrate 0 as reference level then -15 would be 115-15=100db at the microphone position you used to calibrate.

Does it play much louder without distortion than before? Do you know how much more you can turn up the ssp before distortion from pre and post sms firmware upgrade?

John,
did you notice a difference in how high you could turn up the gain on your ssp with the newer firmware without getting distortion?

I thought the gain settings on the ssp should be relevant. If you calibrate 0 as reference level then -15 would be 115-15=100db at the microphone position you used to calibrate.

Does it play much louder without distortion than before? Do you know how much more you can turn up the ssp before distortion from pre and post sms firmware upgrade?

The volume (gain) scale on my SSP is 0 to -95.5. I calibrate at -30 with an analog RS Meter @ 75db @ the LP (channel trims average -4). An SSP level -20 was causing distress at the GTG. Now, can go to -15 before audible distortion from the F113''s but they are still "distorting" at that level. The PB13's produced even more distortion (distress?) at that level. Bypassing the SMS-1 resolved the issue at -20 but not -15.

My hope is that JL will try this disk and report the results.

Sound like cause for another GTG. I'll call Keith and we will meet at your house on Tuesday.:)

John,
did you notice a difference in how high you could turn up the gain on your ssp with the newer firmware without getting distortion?

I'm not noticing any difference but I've never run my sub out into the SMS at anything other than -5 (scale is -/+10). The distortion problems identified with v2.12 were with higher sub SSP outputs, ie 0 and higher. I exchanged some email with the Velodyne techs who confirmed this behaviour. In our tests we equalized all the subs by cutting peaks and no boosts then level matched them at 85db to the speakers with the subs 2.5 metres away. My guesstimate is that the large bass traps and acoustical treatments in the HT necessitated another 2-3db in gain putting even more stress on the subs.

The volume (gain) scale on my SSP is 0 to -95.5. I calibrate at -30 with an analog RS Meter @ 75db @ the LP (channel trims average -4). An SSP level -20 was causing distress at the GTG. Now, can go to -15 before audible distortion from the F113''s but they are still "distorting" at that level. The PB13's produced even more distortion (distress?) at that level. Bypassing the SMS-1 resolved the issue at -20 but not -15.

My hope is that JL will try this disk and report the results.

That is somewhat consistent with the results we saw, if I extrapolate that -20 is close to 85db. Do you recall your sub out level?

That is somewhat consistent with the results we saw, if I extrapolate that -20 is close to 85db. Do you recall your sub out level?

Sub out was/is -2db or two db hot as compared to the mains/surrounds.

The LFE calibration tones out of the DMC-1 SSP sound a bit like WOTW Ch5:rolleyes:. Kinda difficult to calibrate with the SLP meter needle bouncing like that but I also use AVIA so the +2db is about right.

JL Audio home audio has finally gotten a importer to Norway :-)

The first container of F112s and F113s have arrived!

Two F113 heading my way, hopefully in our home cinema this week :-D

heja,

That's one killer home theater you have. Love that star ceiling.

heja,

That's one killer home theater you have. Love that star ceiling.

That's an understatement! :eek:
Amazing theater Heja!

Thanks for the kind words, we like it there!

With two small children in the house a trip to our cimema is a "gettaway" me and my wife can and does do several times a week.

Hopefully the new twin F113s don't wake them up... It probably will be ok they survived years with the PB pluss/2.

Back to the F113s. There have been few comments about the F113 ground plane mesuremnet performed by Ilkka? The only thing that supprised me there was that the distortion figures were kind of high on high levels (at least compared to the PB13). Is that due to the (probably built in) compression in the low 20s area?

I also noted from the pictures something that looks like a rather long (thin) extention cord to all the subs used in Ilkkas test, with the rather power hungry big amp (mutch bigger than the other tested subs) in the F113 should not that be a problem? Anyone know if it was the 230 volt version Ilkka tested or a 110 volt US model?

Anyone have mesaured much voltage sag with the F113 or a pair of F113s going full steam?

Ilkka tested the 230V version of the f113. There won't be much voltage sag even at full output. Although the distortion looked really high and it reads over 15% distortion with the 100dB sweep @ 20Hz, yet the 20Hz maximum clean output is 102dB. I don't understand.
i

Ilkka tested the 230V version of the f113. There won't be much voltage sag even at full output. Although the distortion looked really high and it reads over 15% distortion with the 100dB sweep @ 20Hz, yet the 20Hz maximum clean output is 102dB. I don't understand.
i

Any other toughts on this and my questions over?

Heja,
nice ht room, congrats!
I'll have the room up and running very soon so will let you know if there is significant voltage drop with 2 F113s. I may not be able to give you an accurate answer though since the 4 F113s will be fed by 2 20amp circuits in an Equitech 7.5Q.
In my old setup I was able to play 2 F113s on a common 15amp circuit without tripping the breaker, but obviously that's not the optimum setup.

Heja,
nice ht room, congrats!
I'll have the room up and running very soon so will let you know if there is significant voltage drop with 2 F113s. I may not be able to give you an accurate answer though since the 4 F113s will be fed by 2 20amp circuits in an Equitech 7.5Q.
In my old setup I was able to play 2 F113s on a common 15amp circuit without tripping the breaker, but obviously that's not the optimum setup.

Thanks, please post a few pictures of your new room also...

The "clean" measurement is using a different standard, not the usual 10% limit.

Talking about distortion without relating it to output and visa versa is kind of meaningless. Many subs have high output numbers at low frequencies which are composed of very high levels of distortion. That's why I don't put much emphasis on any output numbers that does not refer to distortion. Illka has adopted the best way to look at sub output measurements, the CEA 2010 metric which limits and weighs output based on certain step thresholds. You can see from this more sophisticated measure how well the small FL113 outperforms most larger subwoofers especially in the low bass category.

Also take a close look at the spectral decay data which shows just how well the FL113 returns to steady state. Its ability to return to normal is about as good as it gets and contributes to its clearly superior sound quality. I find this characteristic important when listening to music where again the FL113 has few equals. Our musical listening tests last fall placed the FL113 well over other excellent subs such as the PB-13 or the Paradigm Servo v2. The Fathom was audibly better in articulating detailed sounds and bass textures.

I have asked Illka to post his spectral contamination measurements which are another insightful way of comparing all non-linear behaviours such as distortions and noise from ports and enclosure resonances. I suspect the Fathom will outperform most other ported and sealed subs in this area as well. Because just about all ported subs chuff to some degree at high output I doubt any vented sub will perform as well.

Anyone that can explain more about the CEA 2010 metric, ref the mail from Jake"the"man :-)

The volume (gain) scale on my SSP is 0 to -95.5. I calibrate at -30 with an analog RS Meter @ 75db @ the LP (channel trims average -4). An SSP level -20 was causing distress at the GTG. Now, can go to -15 before audible distortion from the F113''s but they are still "distorting" at that level. The PB13's produced even more distortion (distress?) at that level. Bypassing the SMS-1 resolved the issue at -20 but not -15.

My hope is that JL will try this disk and report the results.

RMK?

Can you say somenthing of how the F113 sounds when it goes into distress on the Pulse soundtrack?


Anyone that have the spectral content on the "Pulse" pulses?

RMK?

Can you say somenthing of how the F113 sounds when it goes into distress on the Pulse soundtrack?


Anyone that have the spectral content on the "Pulse" pulses?

I just got "Pulse" and will be watching it tonight on my dual f113 system. Specifically, which scene causes the subs to go into distress?

It is from the server scene an onwards, I cant recall the time but it's towards the end. You will feel it when you are there....

It is from the server scene an onwards, I cant recall the time but it's towards the end. You will feel it when you are there....

I listened to the entire second disk of the set, dark side of the moon and the encore. I don't recall any server scene. Is it on the first disk?

lol...kansashick, are you talking about Pink Floyd Pulse or the movie Pulse?

It is from the server scene an onwards, I cant recall the time but it's towards the end. You will feel it when you are there....

I'm at least are talking about the horrible horror movie :-)

From the SVS Ultra thread:

Well said John, I guess I don’t understand why there would be resistance from the manufacturer, owners or potential owners in exploring exactly what it is in this admittedly stupid movies sound track that causes these “top of the heap” subs to go into distress. I found Ed’s “turn it down” comment refreshingly honest and amusing but if I were a PB Ultra owner, I would have found it disturbing. In fact, if that had been JL’s response to me, there might be a couple more Fathoms on Audiogon;).



To contiue this in the JL thread.

What should JL do with this? Modify the limiter on future Fathoms (a mid life uppgrade)? Make it Pulse safe? Make that modification retrofitable to already sold subs if att all possible?

RMK have you gotten any word from JL on the matter?

From the SVS Ultra thread:



To contiue this in the JL thread.

What should JL do with this? Modify the limiter on future Fathoms (a mid life uppgrade)? Make it Pulse safe? Make that modification retrofitable to already sold subs if att all possible?

RMK have you gotten any word from JL on the matter?
I don't think JL should do anything. It's not their fault that some stupid sound engineer uses an oscillating sine wave as a sound effect. I haven't ever seen such effect used before the "Pulse" and doubt we will ever see it again. So no need for an upgrade or anything like that. Same goes to the SVS Ultra of course.

I don't think JL should do anything. It's not their fault that some stupid sound engineer uses an oscillating sine wave as a sound effect. I haven't ever seen such effect used before the "Pulse" and doubt we will ever see it again. So no need for an upgrade or anything like that. Same goes to the SVS Ultra of course.

Maybe. It looks to me like we have sound editors coming to the forefront now that the visual special effects guys have had there run. That means more Pulse, Wotw, FoTp etc. soundtracks. Soundtracks are starting to sell dvds so the producers of these films must be taking note.

Oh boy! What's next? Certain subs will receive the coveted "Pulse Certified" rating or will be "Pulse Proof".

Ha.:D I'm still waiting for CEA 2010 certification. In the meantime I'm looking forward to myself and others "Pulse" certifying them here at AVS.

Oh boy! What's next? Certain subs will receive the coveted "Pulse Certified" rating or will be "Pulse Proof".



:D

Maybe. It looks to me like we have sound editors coming to the forefront now that the visual special effects guys have had there run. That means more Pulse, Wotw, FoTp etc. soundtracks. Soundtracks are starting to sell dvds so the producers of these films must be taking note.
WOTW or FOTP doesn't cause similar problems to subwoofers like the Pulse. So at the moment it's an isolated case... and probably will stay like that.

Not similar but they caused problems, some severe. Ie blowing protective circuits in the PB-13, fried voicecoils on some Yamaha subs, port chuffing galore on most vented subs, huge compression etc. While the sound effects will differ the trend is to stress subs even more. So there will be lots of room for imaginative designers to come up with better solutions.

lol...kansashick, are you talking about Pink Floyd Pulse or the movie Pulse?

Bewilderment comes with old age. I was, of course, referring to the Pink Floyd concert dvd.

We are currently in the prosess of upgrading our home cinema. Today we have the old (but to my ears still quite good) 801 Matrix S3. We have after listening to some alternatives about to converge on the 802D and HTM1D.

Anyone that can share some experience on the combination?

We also have decided on subs and orderend a pair of JL Audio F113.

Anyone having the combination of B&W 800 series and a pair of JL A F113?

Where did you cross over to get the best intergration, 80hz?

If two have you connected them in mono (Chained) or stereo?

Heja, I've heard the 802d and 800d at separate times from the f113. Fabulous speakers! I considered the 800d at one time.

Kal Rubinson, from Stereophile, has reviewed the 802d and f113 and owns both. Do a search on the Stereophile website and it will give his impressions of the 802d working with the f113. The short answer is that he likes the combo.

We are currently in the prosess of upgrading our home cinema. Today we have the old (but to my ears still quite good) 801 Matrix S3. We have after listening to some alternatives about to converge on the 802D and HTM1D.

Anyone that can share some experience on the combination?

We also have decided on subs and orderend a pair of JL Audio F113.

Anyone having the combination of B&W 800 series and a pair of JL A F113?

Where did you cross over to get the best intergration, 80hz?

If two have you connected them in mono (Chained) or stereo?

I helped set up and calibrate a local guy with a pair of 802D's and a F113...the combination is nothing short of perfect synergy. His room is fairly small, and his transport source is a Krell HTS7.1 + amp, but trying different combinations, we settled on 60Hz mains, 80hz rears/center. ARO is running fairly accurately, and it blends extremely well. Feel free to PM me with details if you'd like.

Side note: I personally have the 802's, but decided against the HTMD1 due to size and floor mounting. It is a HUGE center channel and it comes very localized if you dont floor mount it. Just something to keep in mind.

Heja, I've heard the 802d and 800d at separate times from the f113. Fabulous speakers! I considered the 800d at one time.

Kal Rubinson, from Stereophile, has reviewed the 802d and f113 and owns both. Do a search on the Stereophile website and it will give his impressions of the 802d working with the f113. The short answer is that he likes the combo.

Thanks mr B. I have read his Stereophile articles, and yes it sounds like he liked the combination :-)

I helped set up and calibrate a local guy with a pair of 802D's and a F113...the combination is nothing short of perfect synergy. His room is fairly small, and his transport source is a Krell HTS7.1 + amp, but trying different combinations, we settled on 60Hz mains, 80hz rears/center. ARO is running fairly accurately, and it blends extremely well. Feel free to PM me with details if you'd like.

Side note: I personally have the 802's, but decided against the HTMD1 due to size and floor mounting. It is a HUGE center channel and it comes very localized if you dont floor mount it. Just something to keep in mind.

Thanks for your input!

I know its huge, it's a beast :-) The picutere below illustrate it.

We plan to have it on a coustom made pedestal og a little short of a foot tall to rise it to the bottom of my screen. I'n not sure what you mean with with "Comes very localised"?

3 802D (like Kal) is not an option because then there will be no room for our screen abow.

I understand that the ports in the HTM1D can be plugged, have you (or anyone else) tried that and use a higher crossover like 80 Hz?

I really like the idea that the 3 front speakers is as similar as possible (the same marlan head and same speaker elements) and the HTM2D is more like the 803D's and they don't sound the same as the 802'Ds. Understanding of course that the acoustiv environment for a senter is not tha same as the left and right channel.

No, I have not tried to plug the ports on the HTMD1, but I seriously doubt it will make a huge impact on multi-channel or HT use.

I've done a DIY center channel based on Dayton RS drivers and seas millenium tweeter, and they blend very well with the 802's with incredibly accurate matching...surprising really. The speaker can be mounted on top of a cabinet or stand, its horizontal dispersion is very wide and thus, localization is very reduced.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f38/ssabripo/MyHTsetup%2001-08/sherv_HT_jan2008004.jpg

No, I have not tried to plug the ports on the HTMD1, but I seriously doubt it will make a huge impact on multi-channel or HT use.

I've done a DIY center channel based on Dayton RS drivers and seas millenium tweeter, and they blend very well with the 802's with incredibly accurate matching...surprising really. The speaker can be mounted on top of a cabinet or stand, its horizontal dispersion is very wide and thus, localization is very reduced.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f38/ssabripo/MyHTsetup%2001-08/sherv_HT_jan2008004.jpg

So the HTM-1 wouldnt have worked on top of your front cabinet? I figured if it was up there, it would be height matched for the tweeters of the fronts and work better...?

No, I have not tried to plug the ports on the HTMD1, but I seriously doubt it will make a huge impact on multi-channel or HT use.

I've done a DIY center channel based on Dayton RS drivers and seas millenium tweeter, and they blend very well with the 802's with incredibly accurate matching...surprising really. The speaker can be mounted on top of a cabinet or stand, its horizontal dispersion is very wide and thus, localization is very reduced.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f38/ssabripo/MyHTsetup%2001-08/sherv_HT_jan2008004.jpg



Looks like a really nice setup. Seas factory is located in my home town... Have bult quite a few DIY projects in younger days. My uncle had a manager posision at the fatory so supply was plenty...

Can you PM me some of the details on the center?

So the HTM-1 wouldnt have worked on top of your front cabinet? I figured if it was up there, it would be height matched for the tweeters of the fronts and work better...?

Maby the cabinet would have suffered under HTM1D it's 93 kilos :-)

So the HTM-1 wouldnt have worked on top of your front cabinet? I figured if it was up there, it would be height matched for the tweeters of the fronts and work better...?
unfortunately, it wouldn't have worked...I tried it and the thing is way too high...it would cover at least the first 1/3 of the screen, and I really can't have the screen much higher :o

Can you PM me some of the details on the center?
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=287696&postcount=2

Maby the cabinet would have suffered under HTM1D it's 93 kilos :-)
yes, 200+ lbs on top of that cabinet, plus the 400lbs inside it already, would not have been a good move :p

I have an awesome idea guys, a few of us should chip in for this Gotham on sale, at this awesome price...and we can all take turn, like that chick flick with the traveling jeans:D I bet it would fit us oh so well, and we can write letters to each other on how this sub change our lives:)

OK who is with me!!!


http://buy.audiogon.com/cgia/cls.pl?homesubw&1205560635


Oh I want to go first;)


DJoel

I have an awesome idea guys, a few of us should chip in for this Gotham on sale, at this awesome price...and we can all take turn, like that chick flick with the traveling jeans:D I bet it would fit us oh so well, and we can write letters to each other on how this sub change our lives:)

OK who is with me!!!


http://buy.audiogon.com/cgia/cls.pl?homesubw&1205560635


Oh I want to go first;)


DJoel
More important question: why is he selling it? :confused:

It's too much sub for his town.

Must be another Gotham already there, one of those "this town ain't big enough for the two of us" sorta things. :D

sounds like a suspicious listing.
I haven't even had a chance to listen to the 4 F113s I have yet but I was pestering my wife about getting a pair of gothams and selling off the fathoms. Strangely enough the pestering worked. I decided against it for this house because taking the 360pound monsters down the stairs to the listening room is not something I want to try. I have the opportunity to sell my satin f113s and rebuy a pair in gloss to match my first pair but it means losing a little money...decisions, decisions.

Lol:D:D:D

sounds like a suspicious listing.
I haven't even had a chance to listen to the 4 F113s I have yet but I was pestering my wife about getting a pair of gothams and selling off the fathoms. Strangely enough the pestering worked. I decided against it for this house because taking the 360pound monsters down the stairs to the listening room is not something I want to try. I have the opportunity to sell my satin f113s and rebuy a pair in gloss to match my first pair but it means losing a little money...decisions, decisions.



I agree suspicious listing, something is just not right...He has two feedbacks from two long time Agon members, one being Clem7 has a wanted add for either a F113 or a Gotham...Hmm:confused:


On taking 360 lbs down a fight of stairs.
I am not too sure if death by Gotham is the honorable way to go either:o..

DJoel

On taking 360 lbs down a fight of stairs.
I am not too sure if death by Gotham is the honorable way to go either:o..

It wouldn't be pretty, but it would make for awesome marketing material. :D

Didn't Mr. Smith write long ago in this thread that even though the Gotham is an incredible sub, he thought that 4 113's were a similar match and that he would prefer the 4 113's over 2 Gotham's??

I agree suspicious listing, something is just not right...He has two feedbacks from two long time Agon members, one being Clem7 has a wanted add for either a F113 or a Gotham...Hmm:confused:l


For sure. Seems kind of like a dealer pulling some hijinx.:mad:

I'd be suspicious of that Gotham on A-gon, but it never hurts to ask a bunch of questions. I haven't priced the Gotham, but is that really a deal at 20% off the list price? I don't think the warranty transfers on a second owner either so that's something to consider.

One of the guys on the 20K forum just added 2 Gotham's to his system. Nice indeed.

Charles

It wouldn't be pretty, but it would make for awesome marketing material. :D


I can see it now, a picture of the Gotham on it's side horizontal, and pair of legs, and arms sticky out.

Devastating, Killer Bass! People would flocking to their nearest dealer like it was open day at the San Diego zoo after a tiger mauling:D

DJoel

For sure. Seems kind of like a dealer pulling some hijinx.:mad:


What web we weave!

DJoel

It's not a fabulous price or anything they are advertising. OB on the 20K+ site has been very impressed by the gothams.

I agree that 4 F113s are probably just as good, or maybe better depending on how they are located in the room. My thought is that if I was going to sell off 2 of the satin F113s for the gloss f113s it may be worth it to just spring a little extra cash for 1 gotham. Giving it some serious thought at the moment....

Bogg,

The Gotham is one alluring subwoofer no doubt about it. If I recall Mr. Smith's analogy was similar to what you wrote about maybe better dependent upon placement in the room, but the Gotham has a unique signature with its output. Let us know what you decide. :)

Bogg,

The Gotham is one alluring subwoofer no doubt about it. If I recall Mr. Smith's analogy was similar to what you wrote about maybe better dependent upon placement in the room, but the Gotham has a unique signature with its output. Let us know what you decide. :)

Hmmm... my recollection was that Mr. Smith's take was that the Gotham was superior to double 113's. Don't quote me on that.


It wouldn't be pretty, but it would make for awesome marketing material. :D
LOL

Jostenmeat,

I took the time to find Mr. Smith's quote. I probably should have done this before I wrote the recollection from memory. Sometimes I think as I mature, I have CMS syndrome.

Anyway, I based my comment on thinking that an array of subs placed strategically with the same amount of drivers as the Gotham would create a superior experience. What I was thinking was that Mr. Bogg was going to have 4 113's (WOW) and replace 2 of them with a Gotham and also keep the 2 113's that he currently owns. I may have misunderstood what his plan is.

Either way, I don't think any of us would mind being in his shoes with the choices he can make. :) I am a lowly owner of only 1 of the 113's and am quite content as is. :) I love this sub. Powerful, small and built so well. Of all the equipment I own, when people come into my small dedicated room, that is the component that always gets the most attention even when the system is turned off.

Here is Mr. Smith's quote. Hopefully if he has the time, he can provide some feedback on Bogg's situation.


Pradeep, the Gotham is similar in performance to what you could expect from a pair of f113's stacked one on top of the other. The Gotham's drivers are a bit different (as is the net box volume per driver) and there is a little bit less power (3800W vs 5000 on the twin f113's), but it all works out about the same in terms of response and SPL.

Feature-wise, the Gotham and the Fathoms are identical. So, in essence Nethomas is correct that the premium for the Gotham is mostly for its cosmetic effect. Given the choice, I would go with multiple Fathoms and distribute them to create a large zone of smooth bass response. We used six f112's at CEDIA this year all along the front wall of the room spread out laterally with a couple displaced vertically and the bass was the best bass we've had yet. For real-world theaters, a pair of smartly placed f113's is a pretty outstanding package.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

I asked Mr. JL smith the same question quite some time ago (on 12-12-06), if two JL's F113's would be better or worse than a single JL Gotham. Mr. Smith advised me they would be essentially about the same as a single Gotham, stacked. Smith also advised, two JL's F113's in the same area would give you about the same output as a single Gotham. Mr Smith, also advised two F-113's located in seperate positions could give you a smoother response in a wider area.

There's a great paper by Harmon I believe about optimum number of subs in a rectangular room. They modelled rooms with a phenomenal number of subs. Bottom line is that 4 subs are considered superb and better than 2 subs. 2 well-placed subs are superior to 1 equivalent sub. Better in the sense that there will be a smoother room response in multiple locations.
I was only looking at the gothams because they are dead sexy! Gotta admit it's not a wise move to go from the 4 fathoms to 2 gothams because many dollars will be sacrificed in the process! I was thinking of 1 gotham and my 2 fathoms but my wife said that symmetry would be better. I'm not ready to buy 2 gothams yet because the contractors are bleeding me dry right now with the room construction. Think I'll probably save myself from a subwoofer-induced crush injury and forget wrestling the gothams down the back stairs for now!

Two Gotham subs,now that is a very heavy idea. ;) Around 800lbs in two ...compact subs. Hmm four f113's should fill a large room quite well to,but two Gotham subs,you have the added bonus of simply stunning looks.

The Fathom subs look great too. ;)

Two Gotham subs,now that is a very heavy idea. ;) Around 800lbs in two ...compact subs. Hmm four f113's should fill a large room quite well to,but two Gotham subs,you have the added bonus of simply stunning looks.

The Fathom subs look great too. ;)

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee42/sub-woofer/gothams.jpg

Yeah I know. When I saw that picture I was drowning in drool. Practically, it doesn't really make any sense, but who says subwooferitis was practical? Heh heh.

You have to give to JL one thing,they design and build simply gorgeous gear.

Not only do they perform,they are quality all around,from the inside out and make regular subs look like MDF cheapies made in a minute. ;)

I was at my JL Audio dealer and guess what they told me they can have the Gotham fast,and I have the price. It will be a GO in March...YES confirmed I am getting the Gotham. Now this will be my centerpiece sub. The overall benchmark ,quality ,built,performance and compactness king. Yeehaw yeeehaw.

Yeah baby Gotham time.

Hear that Gotham time. damn O damn I hope the floor can take the Gotham and the two large DIY subs on top of all the rest.

Yeah baby Gotham time.

Hear that Gotham time. damn O damn I hope the floor can take the Gotham and the two large DIY subs on top of all the rest.

We love you, man!
:D:D:D

so ear, did you ever get a digicam?

Nothing like a Gotham lovefest... Go hug a Gotham! :)

You have to give to JL one thing,they design and build simply gorgeous gear.

Not only do they perform,they are quality all around,from the inside out and make regular subs look like MDF cheapies made in a minute. ;)

I was at my JL Audio dealer and guess what they told me they can have the Gotham fast,and I have the price. It will be a GO in March...YES confirmed I am getting the Gotham. Now this will be my centerpiece sub. The overall benchmark ,quality ,built,performance and compactness king. Yeehaw yeeehaw.

Yeah baby Gotham time.

Hear that Gotham time. damn O damn I hope the floor can take the Gotham and the two large DIY subs on top of all the rest.

you should get 2 to smooth the room out :D

Just one will do,I am saving eating Ramen soups ! :o

I have four digicams, but no no pics yet..I forgot how to use them...yeah right. I piss a good deal of people (like I did not know). Mr Smith you will confirm to those people ,as Radio St-Hubert is where I am getting the Gotham and have purchased my first Fathom f113 there....plus twenty some subs. :p

JL time,yes when that beastly Gotham arrives pics will sure be...and of some surprise guests too! I have one more thing quite ...sure Epik Conquest. Side by side with some of my best subs. Better salivate now.

The best part I do not use my sub for movies(where totally overblown effects dominate) I use my subs with music.Ah that extra rich low end,gotta love it.