It would be interesting to see waterfall charts of this scene. I have a feeling the bass is centered right around 20-23hz. The Ultra 13 can hit about 6dB higher at 20hz than than the F113.

The JL does not have the highest output in this region. Even the PB12-NSD has about the same output at 20hz as the F113. Although the F113 has 6dB more output at 40hz than the PB-12NSD.

5dB below reference is pretty loud IMO. Especially for a movie with hot bass, which I'm pretty sure Cloverfield is. I have a feeling you guys are hitting the limit of the F113. This doesn't mean the F113 won't hit much louder with other movies because it will.

Read the Cloverfield DVD thread it has other sub owners saying that the notes are powerful and low. If your subs aren't distorting on other material then IMHO the bass levels on the disc are high. You'll have to adjust the level for that movie. Some are just truly well recorded with lots of bass! You can't expect all movies to be recorded at the same levels.;)

I'm waiting for the Blu Ray release before making a judgment on a defective F113's. I can play certain discs mainly my Bass Mekanik CD that has very low test tones that activate the limiter on the Fathom, but then again that is what the disc is designed to do. It sounds like you are just activating the limiter in the sub. It's the same rattle I hear on my test disc. :D Interesting to hear fom Manville Smith what the outcome is? If they can repeat it?

If it sounds like this, then you are reaching the limits of the driver.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnXFuesr2tg&mode=related&search=

I've only had it happened to me once and that was when I was running ARO with the volume knob at max. I had to keep turning it louder because I was setting it up in a store with lots of ambient noise.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=755493


DJoel

Some of you may recall that several months ago, the mighty SVS 13Ultra was found by some to have an achilles heal, maybe it's only achilles heal. That was one particular scene from a crappy movie called "Pulse". Something about the bass in that particular scene seemed to cause the amp's limiters to bring about an odd sound when played at very high levels. It was not a malfunction and no other material seemed to cause it to happen. This could be similar sort of thing.

If it sounds like this, then you are reaching the limits of the driver.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnXFuesr2tg&mode=related&search=

I've only had it happened to me once and that was when I was running ARO with the volume knob at max. I had to keep turning it louder because I was setting it up in a store with lots of ambient noise.



Wow after watching some of those clips on Uboobs I kinda felt a bit sorry for some of those 12W7/6's! :eek:

Something we have to remember here is that these subs have their limits.


DJOel

I can make it happen on a couple of transition scenes in I am Legend as well... I'm just a bit shocked the f113 can't handle this. I would assume we would hear more complaints?

Read the Cloverfield DVD thread it has other sub owners saying that the notes are powerful and low. If your subs aren't distorting on other material then IMHO the bass levels on the disc are high. You'll have to adjust the level for that movie. Some are just truly well recorded with lots of bass! You can't expect all movies to be recorded at the same levels.;)

I'm waiting for the Blu Ray release before making a judgment on a defective F113's. I can play certain discs mainly my Bass Mekanik CD that has very low test tones that activate the limiter on the Fathom, but then again that is what the disc is designed to do. It sounds like you are just activating the limiter in the sub. It's the same rattle I hear on my test disc. :D Interesting to hear fom Manville Smith what the outcome is? If they can repeat it?

What I'm getting is not that dramatic. It's more of a throaty sound and only for a second or two. Maybe I need a good bass test DVD, Can anyone suggest one that will display the freq it's playing during the test?

If it sounds like this, then you are reaching the limits of the driver.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnXFuesr2tg&mode=related&search=

I've only had it happened to me once and that was when I was running ARO with the volume knob at max. I had to keep turning it louder because I was setting it up in a store with lots of ambient noise.

Great. Another torture track that brings powerful subs to their knees. :cool:
I picked up Cloverfield this weekend but haven't watched it yet. I'll looking forward to seeing how a single, dual FL113s, then quads handle that scene.

Not that long ago after Pulse we had a long discussion about whether producers are going to continue pushing the limits on the LFE track and as I thought that continues to be the case. Single subs no matter how well designed are not going to cut it in a dedicated HT.

I did not have any issues with my dual Fathom 113's during Cloverfield. My friends and I had the volume at reference levels and my theater was shaking. My dad looked at me when I demoed some of Cloverfield and said "It felt like I was in the movie". I am very glad I went with a pair. I am thinking of eventually adding two more of these bad boy's.

Great. Another torture track that brings powerful subs to their knees. :cool:
I picked up Cloverfield this weekend but haven't watched it yet. I'll looking forward to seeing how a single, dual FL113s, then quads handle that scene.

Not that long ago after Pulse we had a long discussion about whether producers are going to continue pushing the limits on the LFE track and as I thought that continues to be the case. Single subs no matter how well designed are not going to cut it in a dedicated HT.

Looking forward to your observations on the opening scene, particularly on the single F113 (calibrated accordingly of course).

I have a feeling this scene over powers the F113. This is the first time I heard my sub distort, albeit that the scene calls only for the subs attention.

So why would one F113 distort at ref levels but two not distort at the same level? or is the master volume dropped with two subs in place?

So why would one F113 distort at ref levels but two not distort at the same level? or is the master volume dropped with two subs in place?

With two, each sub is working a lot less hard. The power required from each sub's amp are halved as are the excursions of each driver.

Think of a truck going up a hill with 20 tons. Then think of two trucks going up the same hill with each carrying only 10 tons.

It's probably the limiter doing its job again, but we'll check it out to be sure. Cloverfield, opening scene, right?

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

It's probably the limiter doing its job again, but we'll check it out to be sure. Cloverfield, opening scene, right?

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Manville, I think they are referring to the opening logo which says "bad robot" before the movie even begins.

It's probably the limiter doing its job again, but we'll check it out to be sure. Cloverfield, opening scene, right?

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

YEs please. You'll hear eight pretty long bass notes, each pregressively getting more intense right at the first few seconds of the movie.

I hear the sub distort on the third hit (all levels calibrated correctly. ELF = 0, and sub is ONLY +1db HOT).

I could start to hear it distort at a paltry -8db below reference (77 on the volume).

If anyone is capable of doing a waterfall chart of that particular scene it would be helpful.

Looking forward to your observations on the opening scene, particularly on the single F113 (calibrated accordingly of course).

I have a feeling this scene over powers the F113. This is the first time I heard my sub distort, albeit that the scene calls only for the subs attention.

All subs distort to some degree during intense scenes. The question is how audible is the distortion and whether it distracts from the film itself. Noise which distracts from the video presentation is a non-starter , whether its chuffing, port noise, limiter clicking, bottoming or clipping to name several artifacts that bug me in particular. More headroom ie. more subs cures most of these nasties as does avoiding ports if you have only one or two subs.

Also for some arcane reason related to their unique design, sometimes only certain subs choke such as the PB13-Ultra during Pulse. I'm curious to find out whether Cloverfield does that for the FL113 or whether its a case of improper setup. In any event such audible artifacts with a single sub are just another sign that a user needs more headroom.

With two, each sub is working a lot less hard. The power required from each sub's amp are halved as are the excursions of each driver.

Think of a truck going up a hill with 20 tons. Then think of two trucks going up the same hill with each carrying only 10 tons.

To add further to Mike's comment, depending on how close the dual subs are to one another you can create a further 6db of headroom from mutual coupling compared to a single sub.

All subs distort to some degree during intense scenes. The question is how audible is the distortion and whether it distracts from the film itself. Noise which distracts from the video presentation is a non-starter , whether its chuffing, port noise, limiter clicking, bottoming or clipping to name several artifacts that bug me in particular. More headroom ie. more subs cures most of these nasties as does avoiding ports if you have only one or two subs.

Also for some arcane reason related to their unique design, sometimes only certain subs choke such as the PB13-Ultra during Pulse. I'm curious to find out whether Cloverfield does that for the FL113 or whether its a case of improper setup. In any event such audible artifacts with a single sub are just another sign that a user needs more headroom.


We certainly saw that here last fall when we pushed the dual F113's and the PB13's into distress with the Pulse Server room scene and other bass heavy material. Subsequent to that, I found the F113 pairs limits on a number of bass heavy movie scenes and had to back off a bit on the SPL. Note, this only happened when running the dual subs (4-5 db) hot and very near reference levels. I imagine a single unit in my HT room would exhibit this behavior at lower SPL.

Since installing the quad Fathoms, I have not heard the limiter based distress on any of the suspect scenes including Pulse. This includes running at the same levels that caused this behavior BQ (before quads). I'm sure that if I really push it I can make it happen but why would I do that when they now play cleanly to my desired levels.

Rob, you're a wise dog. :D

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c337/JohnPalumbo/mban2115l1.jpg

Rob, you're a wise dog. :D

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c337/JohnPalumbo/mban2115l1.jpg

:D:D

More like old dog who's learned a few tricks.;)

Looking for some advise please. Newbie here who is hooking up two recently purchased f113's to my new system. I'm paring them up with Revel f52's and was wondering what the best configuration would be. Both subs are located up front in a cabinet on either side of the center channel. Revel's are out front , free in the room. Looking for kick butt theatre but also want the subs to be musical and accurate in two channel stereo mode.

Which of the following would offer best results?

1. Slave second sub to first? and use sub out of Integra processor.

2. Run each sub separately, and use sub out of Integra processor with y connector.

3. Run each sub separately, y out of from front left and right main pre-out .

Any other set-up tips would be greatly appreciated.

You may want to experiment but I would start with the master/slave configuration first. The F113's are designed for that type of scenario and considering they are both up front it should work well.

It's probably the limiter doing its job again, but we'll check it out to be sure. Cloverfield, opening scene, right?

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

hollywood keep pushing the envelope ultra low frequencies

soon we will all be required to install a rotary sub to augment our regular subs

First decision: do you want stereo or mono subs. Stereo subs are tougher to dial in but can provide better music performance. You would use #3 .

Mono subs are easier to dial in and would provide more even FR for movie effects. Personally I like dialling in each sub separately rather than master/slave since it gives more options for dealing with sub integration. Downside is more cables from the processor.

Looking for some advise please. Newbie here who is hooking up two recently purchased f113's to my new system. I'm paring them up with Revel f52's and was wondering what the best configuration would be. Both subs are located up front in a cabinet on either side of the center channel. Revel's are out front , free in the room. Looking for kick butt theatre but also want the subs to be musical and accurate in two channel stereo mode.

Which of the following would offer best results?

1. Slave second sub to first? and use sub out of Integra processor.

2. Run each sub separately, and use sub out of Integra processor with y connector.

3. Run each sub separately, y out of from front left and right main pre-out .

Any other set-up tips would be greatly appreciated.

I hope that cabinet is solid:eek:

I had the exact configuration (Integra 9.8, F52's C52 and dual F113's) and I suggest you start with option one and live with it for a while. Then you will have a baseline established and if your curiosity gets the best of you, you can try the other two.

Jakeman and RMK, thanks for the suggestions. RMK, wow small world, did you like the revel JL setup? did you use the audyssey in the 9.8?

Jakeman and RMK, thanks for the suggestions. RMK, wow small world, did you like the revel JL setup? did you use the audyssey in the 9.8?

I liked it enough to upgrade to the Ultimas (grass is always greener;)) and now quad Fathoms (F112's and F113's).

I have run Audyssey multiple times and each time I felt it muffled my systems sound rather than enhanced it. I have quite a few room treatments (bass traps and absorption panels) and a Velo SMS-1 for EQing the LFE in addition to JL's ARO so all things considered, I may not be the best candidate for Audyssey.:)

RMK, sorry to be off topic but which Ultimas, salon or studio, was it worth it and what are you powering them with? I was tempted to go Ultima's but worried that the integra and a 5 or 7 channel amp would not do them justice. (the audiophile in me talking)

sorry to be off topic but which Ultimas, salon or studio, was it worth it and what are you powering them with? I was tempted to go Ultima's but worried that the integra and a 5 or 7 channel amp would not do them justice. (the audiophile in me talking)

I have a 7.1 (see link in sig) with Studios, Voice, Embrace and I-30 in-walls (I like Revel:D) powered by a Sunfire TGA 7400. The Sunfire has no problem driving the Studios in 2 or multi channel mode. Sounds audiophile quality to me but then, you have to consider the source.:)

It's probably the limiter doing its job again, but we'll check it out to be sure. Cloverfield, opening scene, right?

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Manville, does JL have any plans of putting out a fathom f413 EQ'd flat to 15hz +/- 3db ?

:D

Manville, does JL have any plans of putting out a fathom f413 EQ'd flat to 15hz +/- 3db ?

:D

I can't comment on future products... sorry. :D

We have a copy of the movie and will do some testing sometime this week.

Can you give any hints about the new speakers? I heard they might be coming out soon.

I can't comment on future products... sorry. :D

We have a copy of the movie and will do some testing sometime this week.

well if they do do a f413, do it 2 drivers on top of 2 instead of a straight column of 4 drivers :D

2 of those in my theater would be PERFECT :cool:

We have a copy of the movie and will do some testing sometime this week.


Sound like a week of hard work! Some job:rolleyes:;)

Hmm the tune of Dire Strait's famous anthem just popped in my head.


DJoel

Sound like a week of hard work! Some job:rolleyes:;)

Hmm the tune of Dire Strait's famous anthem just popped in my head.


DJoel

Oh, believe me... this sort of thing isn't fun.

And we don't ever get chicks for free... no such thing, really. ;)

And we don't ever get chicks for free... no such thing, really. ;)

Just ask Elliot Spitzer. :D

Just ask Elliot Spitzer. :D

or toe tapping Senator Larry Craig

oh wait, you said "chicks" for free :p

We have a copy of the movie and will do some testing sometime this week.

*crosses fingers that it's just my limiter kicking in!

Same here.. I guess it will give me a reason to my a second sub :)

I just made a post in the Anthem D2 thread which I've copied below. If anyone has had a similar experience and has any advice I'd appreciate it. Of course I also hope Manville has some input too:

I've got a little "incompatibility problem" with my D2 and my JL Fathom F113 subs. I have a 6.1 setup with all active ATC speakers that take balanced xlr cables as their input. That was one reason I chose the Anthem, for it's balanced capability. The sources are Oppo 980 and PS3 via hdmi, and hdmi out to Sony Black Pearl. Power is supplied to everything by way of an Equitech 7.5Q unit which is 4-20amp circuits of balanced power. I have 4 of the F113 subs (only 2 are currently hooked up). I bought 2 Blue Jeans splitters that takes a single xlr output and split it into 2 so that all 4 of my subs can be run via the sub xlr outputs on the Anthem.

I hooked up 2 of the subs using the 2 xlr outs on the D2. There is ground loop type noise that is audible at my listening position 10 feet away (i.e. it's not subtle). Interestingly, if the hdmi is doing a handshake then the noise goes away while the handshake is going on for a second or 2. All of the equipment is going through the equitech so it's not like there is something on a different circuit connecting to the system. I don't get any noise out of the other balanced outputs into the speakers, they are essentially silent as expected. I tried plugging the subs into one of the other outputs (a speaker output instead of the sub output) but it did the same thing. I happened to have a cable which has rca on one end and xlr on the other and plugged it into the rca sub out on the Anthem and xlr input on the subs. Much better, can only hear a slight hum within a foot or so of the sub. Problem is that all the wire run through the walls is xlr. If I defeat the ground pin to the sub then the hum is also gone (even if xlr is used from Anthem to sub). My understanding is that this is not a good idea from a safety point of view. As an aside, if I plug the sub in using a 3 prong power cord and it's connected to the Anthem via xlr then I often get a fairly large "shock" when I touch the front panel of the sub. It's even occasionally caused one of the switches to toggle without me even touching the switch! At this point it is tough to know who was to blame...Anthem or JL. I remember that I had the same issue with the balanced cable from Anthem to the sub even before this room was constructed. I had just assumed it was there because it wasn't a dedicated circuit previously.

I just plugged my stereo preamp with xlr outputs - ATC SCA1 - directly into the sub via xlr cable and the hum/noise was much less than with the Anthem.

Seems to me that there is a bit of a problem connecting the D2 to the F113 sub via xlr. I have a few options:

1. get an rca to xlr adaptor/splitter and use the 2 rca sub outs on the Anthem for my 4 subs.

2. defeat the ground pin on the sub power cord and use the existing xlr cables.

Anyone experience something similar or have an opinion? I'm going to send a copy to Anthem to see what they suggest.

Sorry for the long post, I would appreciate your input.:)

There is a switch on the back of the f113. I forgot what the default setting was but it's for humming issues. Flip it and see what it does.. JL mentioned this to me a while back.

From the Cloverfield Waterfalls I have seen, most of the bass energy is in the 40-50 Hz region where the F113 gives little if any ground to other commercial subs. My dual non co-located F113's handled it fine. It may be as simple as turn it down or add another sub (or three).:D

Well I finally got around to firing up the first pair of F113s in my new purpose-built room. I've just posted above with a small issue that I've been working on but enough about that, let me just say that my house structure may never be the same!

I've just got the 2 hooked up right now. Calibrated roughly using the Ratshack digital spl meter. Setting of -1.5 on the sub volume in the Anthem setup menu after a little tweaking by ear. The placement hasn't been optimized but it's in the ballpark of where they are going to be.

Fired up wotw. Started off at modest levels and then advanced to -5db below reference. I calibrated the Anthem D2 so that reference of zero should be 75db for the speakers and 10db higher for the sub. let me just say that the bass quality and quantity was just incredible. My chair was shaking - and it's not one of those chairs you stick a quarter in. :D Those woofers were dancing like there was no tomorrow. I don't know if was close to maxed out there because it was so loud overall anyway that a bit of distortion wouldn't be noticed. I could always turn all the speakers off and just see what the subs sound like but why bother.

If I hadn't bought the other 2 F113s I MIGHT have considered just sticking with 2. Remember that this is a fairly tightly sealed room with extensive bass trapping. There's not a lot of "loss" and the bass stays in the room quite well. Thankfully it is a well constructed room and nothing rattles.

It didn't quite have the visceral shake factor that my friend Jesse's quad-18inch IB setup did but it was pretty close. Plus I didn't have it maxed out. Plus I have 2 more subs to add! :cool:

I must give kudos to my other speakers because I've never heard such "realistic" sounds from wotw. These babies will play loud without compression or piercing highs.

Wow, this is what it's all about!

Unfortunately, the soundproofing didn't turn out quite as good as planned. I think the door framing turned out to be the weak link. Oh well, just means I can't blast it late at night when the family is home. Can still listen at reasonable levels which is a big improvement compared to when it was all open concept down there.

I love bass. :)

There is a switch on the back of the f113. I forgot what the default setting was but it's for humming issues. Flip it and see what it does.. JL mentioned this to me a while back.

That's only for the rca inputs. I tried it anyway and no difference. thanks for the input anyway.

Seems to me that there is a bit of a problem connecting the D2 to the F113 sub via xlr. I have a few options:

1. get an rca to xlr adaptor/splitter and use the 2 rca sub outs on the Anthem for my 4 subs.

2. defeat the ground pin on the sub power cord and use the existing xlr cables.

Anyone experience something similar or have an opinion? I'm going to send a copy to Anthem to see what they suggest.

Sorry for the long post, I would appreciate your input.:)

That's a bummer. :confused: As I recall you had that hum problem with XLR when I first visited you in early 2006 when you bought the dual 113s. It seems to me #1 is your best bet as I never like defeating ground for safety reasons. I doubt it will make any difference to perceived sound.

Are you also experiencing that hum when you rotate the other 113s? If so I doubt the problem lies with the JLs.

I think you're probably right John. I haven't unboxed the second pair yet but will do it soon and see what happens there.

That's a bummer. :confused: As I recall you had that hum problem with XLR when I first visited you in early 2006 when you bought the dual 113s. It seems to me #1 is your best bet as I never like defeating ground for safety reasons. I doubt it will make any difference to perceived sound.

Are you also experiencing that hum when you rotate the other 113s? If so I doubt the problem lies with the JLs.

There is a device called Hum-X that supposedly removes ground loop hums without removing the ground. I think it sells for $60.

Guys, I would appreciate your help concerning shipping an f113. Who would you recommend as the best shipping company, for price and reliability?

Thanks for your help,

Mike

Yellow trucking and fedex have both delivered f113s to me with no problems and reasonable rates.

There is a device called Hum-X that supposedly removes ground loop hums without removing the ground. I think it sells for $60.

I read about that before. I'm using 20amp plugs though, plus I don't want anything that might potentially current-limit. If it's deemed unsafe to lift the ground (which I believe is a bad idea) then I may just use the rca outs from the anthem.

I just tried something. If I turn on the anthem and the sub with the anthem set to a dvd input but leave the input off then the hum is not loud. As soon as I turn on the dvd player then the hum gets louder. Same for both the Oppo and the PS3 via hdmi. The hum pauses for a second when the hdmi link is being re-established. Weird.

I think you're probably right John. I haven't unboxed the second pair yet but will do it soon and see what happens there.

That is a bummer. I have had 5 different Fathoms here at one time or other and they have all been connected via RCA even though my SSP's have balanced sub outs. I had a hum issue with one of them and the JL Ground switch resolved it. I hate to say it but I'd use the RCA outs (with adapters) and be done with it. If you use the RCA's try the ground switch as it might get rid of the low level hum you are getting from the RCA's.

thanks boggs, i appreciate the quick response. did fed ex ship directly to your home? also, mine will be an out of state shipment. was yours?

thanks,

mike

Mike, mine was in Canada. Fedex did deliver to the house.

I read about that before. I'm using 20amp plugs though, plus I don't want anything that might potentially current-limit. If it's deemed unsafe to lift the ground (which I believe is a bad idea) then I may just use the rca outs from the anthem.

I just tried something. If I turn on the anthem and the sub with the anthem set to a dvd input but leave the input off then the hum is not loud. As soon as I turn on the dvd player then the hum gets louder. Same for both the Oppo and the PS3 via hdmi. The hum pauses for a second when the hdmi link is being re-established. Weird.

Carl Kennedy of JL Audio has a good article on subwoofer hum troubleshooting on his blog:
http://theprofessionalanswer.com/WordPress/?p=102

thank you bogg.

I have one power outlet in my HT that is a source of hum no matter what sub I plug into it. With other subs I route the power cord to the main 20A outlet where the rest of my gear is connected. With a FL113 unbalanced plus lifting the ground switch in the rear solves the problem.

Carl Kennedy of JL Audio has a good article on subwoofer hum troubleshooting on his blog:
http://theprofessionalanswer.com/WordPress/?p=102

Thanks Manville. I forgot about the blog as a resource, I had just skimmed it a week or 2 ago. Great article. The guys over on the D2 forum have also been helpful. I guess the bass fest last night made me forget the basics. Unplug everything from the Anthem and the sub and systematically plug in one item at a time. Duh. lol. :)

With the balanced connection, you are still at the mercy of all the other equipment connected upstream, even if there is no ground loop between the pre/pro and the subwoofers. It will usually be quiet, but in certain stubborn situations the unbalanced inputs on the Fathoms provide the quieter option. We kind of went thermonuclear on the unbalanced input design, employing optical isolation and the Isolated/Grounded switch to prevent ground loops.

Fired up wotw. Started off at modest levels and then advanced to -5db below reference. I calibrated the Anthem D2 so that reference of zero should be 75db for the speakers and 10db higher for the sub. let me just say that the bass quality and quantity was just incredible. My chair was shaking - and it's not one of those chairs you stick a quarter in. Those woofers were dancing like there was no tomorrow. I don't know if was close to maxed out there because it was so loud overall anyway that a bit of distortion wouldn't be noticed. I could always turn all the speakers off and just see what the subs sound like but why bother.

Hmmm ... how did I know you'd play WOTW first!! Congrats Ash, sounds like it's been a long time coming!

With the balanced connection, you are still at the mercy of all the other equipment connected upstream, even if there is no ground loop between the pre/pro and the subwoofers. It will usually be quiet, but in certain stubborn situations the unbalanced inputs on the Fathoms provide the quieter option. We kind of went thermonuclear on the unbalanced input design, employing optical isolation and the Isolated/Grounded switch to prevent ground loops.

I assume the isolated/grounded switch disconnects the signal ground from the chassis ground, right? Is this equivalent to defeating the grounding pin? I note in Carl's thread that he says that as a last resort you can defeat the grounding pin. It's been debated whether or not this is a safe thing to do based on possibility of creating a shock hazard. I'd be interested in JL's opinion on "safety" and defeating the grounding pin on the F113. I have a PS Audio power cable which has a grounding pin that can be removed by unscrewing it. Works perfectly. Of course my concern is for safety but I'm not sure how much of the whole issue is a bit of a myth.

I assume the isolated/grounded switch disconnects the signal ground from the chassis ground, right? Is this equivalent to defeating the grounding pin?

It does isolate the signal ground from earth ground, but unlike removing the grounding pin, it doesn't leave the amp electrically ungrounded.

I note in Carl's thread that he says that as a last resort you can defeat the grounding pin. It's been debated whether or not this is a safe thing to do based on possibility of creating a shock hazard. I'd be interested in JL's opinion on "safety" and defeating the grounding pin on the F113. I have a PS Audio power cable which has a grounding pin that can be removed by unscrewing it. Works perfectly. Of course my concern is for safety but I'm not sure how much of the whole issue is a bit of a myth.

I cannot tell you what to do with your subwoofer in your home, but our official position is that you should not remove the grounding pin. The unit's UL/CSA certification is dependent on that pin being there and plugged into a properly grounded outlet. We are not allowed to recommend removal of the pin or use of a "cheater plug".

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Gotcha, thanks Manville.
The other thing I read is that you can float the shield (pin 1) on the input side of the xlr cable (the part of the cable that plugs into the sub). My understanding is that this is safe since the amp remains grounded. I might try this with a "spare" piece of cable I have. If all else fails I'll just use the rca outputs from the Anthem to the subs.

I'll just cross-post this from the Anthem thread (the hum is referring to noises from the F113 sub):

Aargh my head hurts. Seems like there is a problem with hum if any 2 out of the 3 hdmi connections are made. For example, if just the Oppo is connected to the D2 then it's fine. If the Oppo and the projector are connected via hdmi then there is hum. If the projector alone is connected to the D2 via hdmi it's mostly fine. If the PS3 is connected alone to the D2 via hdmi there is actually a bit of hum suggesting it is also a problem.

The solution is quite easy, just depends on what one is willing to do. I'm probably just going to use adaptors to use my existing in-wall xlr cable. If anyone needs further info there is a good article on the Jensen website and on the Rane website. Happy to answer any questions my limited knowledge might help with since I've spent a lot of time with this issue.

Hmmm ... how did I know you'd play WOTW first!! Congrats Ash, sounds like it's been a long time coming!

I still can't believe how bad the acting is in that movie, but the bass is another story. The pod should get the oscar for the movie! :p

It looks like I've solved the ground loop/hum problem I described in recent posts. Best part was that it didn't cost anything and it didn't involve defeating any ground pins.

My Blue Jeans xlr cables are constructed properly with 2 conductors - pin 2 and pin 3. The shield is connected at both ends on pin 1. This is the best design in optimum circumstances.

Nick from Anthem sent me a link to a paper on the Rane website. Someone here also offered good advice, and another thread had some good info.

I disconnected the shield at the subwoofer end (by unsoldering the shield from pin 1). Voila, no more hum. No increase in noise in any of the other speakers. Works fine if I have ps3 on, oppo on, and projector on. I only tried it with 1 of the subs but I'm sure it will work on the others too. Theoretically there is a higher chance of picking up rfi but so far no issue. I compared it to using an rca cable from Anthem to sub using the isolated ground switch setting. The noise levels were the same - just a whooshing sound with my head close to the woofer.

It is a happy day. Now I can concentrate on setting things up and finally enjoying it. Thanks to those who offered advice.

It's probably the limiter doing its job again, but we'll check it out to be sure. Cloverfield, opening scene, right?

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Manville Smith,

How is the testing coming along? Any initial impression on how the F113 handles the scene?

I know at least several us are interested in your findings.

Thanks.

We have purchased the movie and should have results in a day or two.

I just ordered two F113's :D and subscribed to this thread. I usually read owner's threads completely, but this one is really long. I may still read it, but have there been any earth-shaking (pun intended) revelations in this thread? If you just provide the keywords, I can research it myself using the search function.

One thing I will have to decide is where to place the F113's in the mix of my system. My A/V Processor has outputs for L/R subs and LFE. I have two Velodyne DD-15's being used as L/R subs. I have the DD-15's in the front of the room, and they were EQ'd separately, since the exact placement is not "mirrored".

I was thinking to use the F113's as LFE subs based on their sheer output capability. I would use a master/slave configuration. One would be on the side wall, towards the rear of the room, and the other on the opposited side wall or on the rear wall of the room.

I can't wait to get them set up.

Thanks for any input.

Mark

Congrats Mark and welcome, regarding placment, this is a good place to start (http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf)

Quads subs can make for a very enjoyable HT experience and you have some good ones. ;)

I think you are good starting off using ARO and the Master/ Slave config. Please post pictures and your comments. Again, welcome and enjoy!:cool:






I just ordered two F113's :D and subscribed to this thread. I usually read owner's threads completely, but this one is really long. I may still read it, but have there been any earth-shaking (pun intended) revelations in this thread? If you just provide the keywords, I can research it myself using the search function.

One thing I will have to decide is where to place the F113's in the mix of my system. My A/V Processor has outputs for L/R subs and LFE. I have two Velodyne DD-15's being used as L/R subs. I have the DD-15's in the front of the room, and they were EQ'd separately, since the exact placement is not "mirrored".

I was thinking to use the F113's as LFE subs based on their sheer output capability. I would use a master/slave configuration. One would be on the side wall, towards the rear of the room, and the other on the opposited side wall or on the rear wall of the room.

I can't wait to get them set up.

Thanks for any input.

Mark

Very nice and congrats. :cool: The Velo pair plus Fathom pair are a match made in heaven. I've had a similar configuration using alternatively the Velos as the stereo pair or the FL113s as the stereo pair. That setup adds an extra air of realism to the front soundstage. The sound is wonderful with either set of L/R subs. I believe you will find it a bit more challenging to dial in the LFE subs with the stereo pair but its well worth the effort. The quad subs also work well together as mono LFE with one sub on each mid-wall for optimum FR linearity across the room.

Congrats Mark and welcome, regarding placment, this is a good place to start (http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf)

Quads subs can make for a very enjoyable HT experience and you have some good ones. ;)

I think you are good starting off using ARO and the Master/ Slave config. Please post pictures and your comments. Again, welcome and enjoy!:cool:

Very nice and congrats. :cool: The Velo pair plus Fathom pair are a match made in heaven. I've had a similar configuration using alternatively the Velos as the stereo pair or the FL113s as the stereo pair. That setup adds an extra air of realism to the front soundstage. The sound is wonderful with either set of L/R subs. I believe you will find it a bit more challenging to dial in the LFE subs with the stereo pair but its well worth the effort. The quad subs also work well together as mono LFE with one sub on each mid-wall for optimum FR linearity across the room.

Thanks for the link. I neglected to mention that I am also using a pair of Mirage BPSS-210's located on the side walls, next to the side speakers. I use the balanced XLR outputs on the processor to send the L/R sub signals to the DD-15's. I use the unbalanced RCA outputs on the processor to send the L/R sub signals to the BPSS-210's.

So, I have a bit of work cut out for me. I really want to get the F113's working well with everything else in the room. Outside of setting up the DD-15's, I never spent any time on placement testing with the BPSS-210's or my two current LFE subs. That said, I am very happy with the combined L/R bass from the DD-15 pair and the BPSS-210 pair. The one area I was not happy with was the LFE subs, hence the acquisition of the F113's.

I will be a geographical bachelor for four weeks in June, so will fine-tune the setup and placement of all subs during that time. Even though I think I have the optimal placement and performance for the DD-15 / BPSS-210 combination, I will verify this again.

Mark

I will be a geographical bachelor for four weeks in June...

Mark

A "geographical bachelor" ?...got to remember that expression. :D

Manville,

Looking for some advice please. Due to an error between my cabinet maker and my designer the cavities in my entertainment center for my two 113's are too short. Can I lay them on their side? Any down sides in performance?

thanks

toynaround

Congrats Mark and welcome, regarding placment, this is a good place to start (http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf)

Quads subs can make for a very enjoyable HT experience and you have some good ones. ;)

I think you are good starting off using ARO and the Master/ Slave config. Please post pictures and your comments. Again, welcome and enjoy!:cool:

I read through this paper, and am still thinking to use more than four subs because I have the subs already (no additional expenditure) and my processor will support it. I will be playing around with the setup during my geographical bachelorhood in June.

You guys will think I am insane, but I was thinking to try eight subs as outlined below. The Mirage subs have no controls on them, and I use their LFX-3 active crossover device to control only the volume level. The crossover is set at the max setting of 120Hz to minimize the interaction, since there is no bypass capability.

My room is 27'-4" x 20'-10" x 7'-4". I would leave the Velodyne's in place, as they are all set up and Equalized; they are very close to the front corners of the room. The L/R Mirage subs would be placed in the middle of the side walls. The LFE Mirage subs would be placed on the middle of the front and back walls. The LFE JL Audio subs would be placed in spots where they perform the best.

The placement of the Mirage subs is predicated on the basis that the middle of the wall causes the least interaction with room modes. Since they have no equalization, they need to be in the best spots to lessen the chance for excitation of room modes.

Further, I can use the Velodyne SMS software and "RTA" graph to play around with the optimum placement of all subs. I read a review where the guy did this, and thought it was a great idea!

Proposed Connection Strategy - Eight Subs
L/R Subs (XLR) - Velodyne DD-15
L/R Subs (RCA) - Mirage BPSS-210
LFE Subs (XLR) - JL Audio f113 using the master/slave configuration
LFE Subs (RCA) - Mirage BPSS-210 using a "Y" splitter from the AVP's LFE output

Any thoughts?

Please do not post simply to re-confirm my insanity:eek:...I already am painfully aware of it! Besides, this is a project (let's call it Project 7.8) to see if I will like it or not.

Mark

Well I like all the headroom. The Harman paper suggests four mono subs for optimal linearity placed strategically though one drawback I have found is that assumes correct phase alignment between the subs and between the subs and mains. Like I said a challenging proposition which is not cured or completely visible on RTA or SMS graphs.

Also I don't see the need for dual left and dual right stereo subs and again I would be concerned about phase artifacts.

Nevertheless an interesting real life experiment in what multiple subs can do. I would approach it a bit differently by making sure one pair of stereo subs and one pair of LFE subs were properly set up and then create headroom and minimize phase issues by collocating additional subs.

Here is another take on this subject. I recently read this article "The Placement of One or Several Subwoofers" by Ingvar Öhman first published in "Musik och Ljudteknik", no.1, 1997, Sweden (don't fret its in English)

It was written before the Harman paper on the same subject. The writer favours corner loading duals and front loading multiple subs to minimize phase errors and interference. I tried this setup once and thought it sounded pretty good. It also looks very cool having all that gear up front in an HT. I never tried his suggestion of two subs near the ceiling and two on the floor but his rational makes sense acoustically.

http://www.sonicdesign.se/subplace.html

Also I don't see the need for dual left and dual right stereo subs and again I would be concerned about phase artifacts.

Nevertheless an interesting real life experiment in what multiple subs can do. I would approach it a bit differently by making sure one pair of stereo subs and one pair of LFE subs were properly set up and then create headroom and minimize phase issues by collocating additional subs.

John, looks like a good read...I printed it and will read it tonight. Do you think the Mirage subs, which are "Bipolar" with two 10" woofers, would make any difference in your line of thinking? Probably just marketing mumbo jumbo, but I thought I would ask.

I like your approach, since I already have the DD-15's set up. I could optimize the setup and placement of the f113's, then add the Mirage subs into the mix and see what that brings.

Mark

Any word from JL on the Cloverfield test? I'm curious since we a couple of us have this issue..

The engineers were testing some new products this week and didn't have time to run the Cloverfield test... will do this coming week.

The engineers were testing some new products this week and didn't have time to run the Cloverfield test... will do this coming week.

distortion is like the protection cirquit kicks in when cloverfield plays?

I'm hoping we hear something soon from JL on the Cloverfield test...

I'm hoping we hear something soon from JL on the Cloverfield test...

I agree, wonder why it is taking unusually long to play a 30 sec clip and post results.

My expectation is they come back with some decibel numbers to compare to.

There's a guy with the TRW rotary fan sub who posted in the 20K+ home theatre thread and was significantly underwhelmed with Cloverfield. I've never seen the movie, is there really some woofer-busting bass in it because other posters don't seem to think so...

There's a guy with the TRW rotary fan sub who posted in the 20K+ home theatre thread and was significantly underwhelmed with Cloverfield. I've never seen the movie, is there really some woofer-busting bass in it because other posters don't seem to think so...

I didn't think is was "woofer-busting". It has some good LFE and I thought it was a fun little movie (once you get past the first 4 chapters). It is not Pulse or even WOTW for LFE intensity or duration.

There isn't any busting base during the movie really but in the opening credits there is a series of booms before the movie begins which seems to stress out some subs including a single F113. I guess it's a good reference track to test the subs ability at those freq.

There's a guy with the TRW rotary fan sub who posted in the 20K+ home theatre thread and was significantly underwhelmed with Cloverfield. I've never seen the movie, is there really some woofer-busting bass in it because other posters don't seem to think so...

That is definitely not my experience with the movie. I thought the bass was some of the most impressive bass I've heard and it was throughout the movie. The waterfall charts on Pain's thread showing significant bass well down into the single digits would also support this. I wouldn't call it "sub busting" in the "Pulse" sense, but it is certainly room shaking.
The guy with fan is doing something wrong. Maybe he's got it blowing the wrong way. :D

The guy with fan is doing something wrong. Maybe he's got it blowing the wrong way. :D

:D

The waterfall charts on Pain's thread showing significant bass well down into the single digits would also support this.

that would be trouble for a single f113

Frequency Response (Anechoic):

20 – 86 Hz (±1.5dB)
–3 dB at 18 Hz / 127 Hz
–10 dB at 16 Hz / 154 Hz

that would be trouble for a single f113

Frequency Response (Anechoic):

20 – 86 Hz (±1.5dB)
–3 dB at 18 Hz / 127 Hz
–10 dB at 16 Hz / 154 Hz

That response from -3db@18hz dropping to -10db@16hz would seem to indicate a low filter at around 17hz or so. Really deep bass in the low teens and single digits should simply be ignored by the f113.

Does the ARO test even go that low? I would assume that if it did, the eq would filter it out if the mic hears the limiter kicking in..

There's a guy with the TRW rotary fan sub who posted in the 20K+ home theatre thread and was significantly underwhelmed with Cloverfield. I've never seen the movie, is there really some woofer-busting bass in it because other posters don't seem to think so...

That or my F113 is simply faulty. This is why i am anxiously awaiting what Manville has to say.

Again, at a paltry 75db (85db being reference) my F113 starts to distort at the opening scene of Cloverfield. I hope it is just my sub as I would be more disappointed to find out if the F113 indeed can't handle this scene.

The guy with fan is doing something wrong. Maybe he's got it blowing the wrong way. :D

Haha that's funny, I'll post it there...

Guys, sorry for the delay in the testing. Our theater rooms have been undergoing some major electrical work and we simply did not have a chance to run the tests this week. I am taking the DVD home with me to play on my f112's this weekend. I'll let you know what I find out... (I will run the test with one and with two f112's). Hopefully next week, we can run some tests on f113's back at the factory.

I'm with you Scanido. I just want to know either way. If it's a faulty unit so be it but I have a feeling it's too much for the sub. I just don't see how both of us have the same problem.

i played the DVD last weekend with my two f112's and didnt have a hint of a problem.

I think that's expected with two. Do you mind trying with 1 sub connected and bring up the single to ref levels? I'm thinking you'll find the same we're having running on a single sub.

I think that's expected with two. Do you mind trying with 1 sub connected and bring up the single to ref levels? I'm thinking you'll find the same we're having running on a single sub.

I'm sorry if this has been asked before (big thread:o) but have you tried other bass testers? War of the Worlds (ch5) Master and Commander (cannon battle scene) should exibit the same distress if the sub has issues. Otherwise like Pulse, it is the DVD. I don't own the disk but will be buying the BR version when it comes out later this month and will try it with a single F113. Hopefully, you will have more info from JL soon.

I considered the disc but I can reproduce the same problem on I am Legend as well at +3 above reference. I really don't think it's the disc. Besides, others don't have the issue with dual subs. Which leads me to believe a single f113 doesn't have the headroom at ref levels. At least on certain clips.

Ok guys…

This afternoon I tested the opening of Cloverfield on my home system with dual f112’s. I used a Sencore analyzer for all measurements.

My home system is a simple 2ch audio system with one f112 supporting each channel and crossed over to the mains at 90 Hz / 24dB per octave via an external active crossover. Each sub is run in Master mode and is independently calibrated via A.R.O. with levels set manually and phase/polarity carefully adjusted to integrate with the mains.

The levels are well calibrated with no extra hotness on the sub level. With the overall level set pretty loud (dialog around 78dB SPL), the last pulse of the opening of the movie registered a level of 90.9 dB at my seat. From the listening position I heard no distress or limiter gating with two subs or with only one sub (goosed in level by about 3dB) to compensate. Isolating the subs and placing my ear near them, some higher frequency junk seemed to present itself but it was very minor.

At more comfortable playback levels, the last pulse maxed out at 87.1 dB at the listening position and I heard nothing strange.

The spectral content of the pulses seems focused on the range between 30 Hz and 70 Hz, without a lot of really low stuff going on. The overall amplitude and spectral content should not be putting any Fathom into limiting, but we will test the f113’s back at JL Audio this coming week to be sure. I have a sneaky suspicion that the audio signal on the disc is simply dirty (possibly intentionally), but we’ll have to test it more precisely than my quickie test session.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Manville,

Is there an update on when the F110 will be released?

Thanks,
John

Still no specific date, but according to Carl Kennedy's blog the F110 will be released sometime in July.

http://theprofessionalanswer.com/WordPress/?p=119

On a different note -- last time I checked, msrp's on the f113 and f112 in Canada were $4999 and $3999 respectively. Does anybody know whether prices have been adjusted to reflect the strength of the Canadian dollar yet? I am interested in the f110, but if it's CAD$2999 I will have to consider other alternatives.

Still no specific date, but according to Carl Kennedy's blog the F110 will be released sometime in July.

http://theprofessionalanswer.com/WordPress/?p=119

On a different note -- last time I checked, msrp's on the f113 and f112 in Canada were $4999 and $3999 respectively. Does anybody know whether prices have been adjusted to reflect the strength of the Canadian dollar yet? I am interested in the f110, but if it's CAD$2999 I will have to consider other alternatives.

Yeah, maybe... That's why I went ahead and ordered two f112's. Can't wait :D

Ok guys…

This afternoon I tested the opening of Cloverfield on my home system with dual f112’s. I used a Sencore analyzer for all measurements.

My home system is a simple 2ch audio system with one f112 supporting each channel and crossed over to the mains at 90 Hz / 24dB per octave via an external active crossover. Each sub is run in Master mode and is independently calibrated via A.R.O. with levels set manually and phase/polarity carefully adjusted to integrate with the mains.

The levels are well calibrated with no extra hotness on the sub level. With the overall level set pretty loud (dialog around 78dB SPL), the last pulse of the opening of the movie registered a level of 90.9 dB at my seat. From the listening position I heard no distress or limiter gating with two subs or with only one sub (goosed in level by about 3dB) to compensate. Isolating the subs and placing my ear near them, some higher frequency junk seemed to present itself but it was very minor.

At more comfortable playback levels, the last pulse maxed out at 87.1 dB at the listening position and I heard nothing strange.

The spectral content of the pulses seems focused on the range between 30 Hz and 70 Hz, without a lot of really low stuff going on. The overall amplitude and spectral content should not be putting any Fathom into limiting, but we will test the f113’s back at JL Audio this coming week to be sure. I have a sneaky suspicion that the audio signal on the disc is simply dirty (possibly intentionally), but we’ll have to test it more precisely than my quickie test session.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

With all due respect, Manville, you certainly can't consider 90.9db at the seats any kind of real test. Many of us are testing at 105-110-115db at the seats. If a sub, let alone a pair of subs, were to make bad noises at 90.9db, throw it or them away.

With all due respect, Manville, you certainly can't consider 90.9db at the seats any kind of real test. Many of us are testing at 105-110-115db at the seats. If a sub, let alone a pair of subs, were to make bad noises at 90.9db, throw it or them away.

i agree. unless your "listening position" is out in the open - ground plane style 5-6 meters away :D

I don’t believe that Manville was running a max SPL “test”. He simply ran his subs at reasonably loud levels to see if the subs exhibited any distress during the scene in question. Dialog at 80db at the LP is adequate for most people who value their hearing. As stated, Manville’s subs were level matched with his stereo speakers. Apparently, this is an alien concept to some:rolleyes: .

Actually it should be an SPL test. It should be a test to see at what SPL the sub starts to make unwanted noises. I don't know of any real sub that would make unpleasent noises when playing a soundtrack at 90.9db if it is good operating conditions. It's got nothing to do with anybody's individual preferred listening levels.

Actually it should be an SPL test. It should be a test to see at what SPL the sub starts to make unwanted noises. I don't know of any real sub that would make unpleasent noises when playing a soundtrack at 90.9db if it is good operating conditions. It's got nothing to do with anybody's individual preferred listening levels.

If you read the post of one of the gents with the issue, you might have noticed this; Again, at a paltry 75db (85db being reference) my F113 starts to distort at the opening scene of Cloverfield. I hope it is just my sub as I would be more disappointed to find out if the F113 indeed can't handle this scene.

Manville exceeded that SPL in his informal home test. He has indicated several times that JL will do more extensive testing with the Cloverfield DVD. Do you consider comments like these helpfull?
I don't know of any real sub that would make unpleasent noises when playing a soundtrack at 90.9db if it is good operating conditions.
Manville, you certainly can't consider 90.9db at the seats any kind of real test. Many of us are testing at 105-110-115db at the seats. If a sub, let alone a pair of subs, were to make bad noises at 90.9db, throw it or them away.

Manville exceeded that SPL in his informal home test. He has indicated several times that JL will do more extensive testing with the Cloverfield DVD. Do you consider comments like these helpfull?

Yes I do. We are talking about a very high-performance $2700 sub (in this case the f112). Expecting it to be capable of clean output greater than a mere 90.9db is not unreasonable. JL put a lot of tech and high-caliber components into these boxes and they should be able to excede normal listening levels without strain. That is headroom. If Manville's test is considered to be a bit of a stopgap until JL has the time to do more extensive testing, it would be of more use to know what level the sub may be expected to perform at. I'm certainly not suggesting that he pushes it until it explodes. I'm sure it's protected from doing that anyhow.

Of course it is Manville's perogative to not push his sub or subs any further. That's fine too, but his earlier tests don't carry much weight in my opinion.

Mr Manvillev Smith,

"With the overall level set pretty loud (dialog around 78dB SPL)"

What is this from reference volume so that I and others can compare? Is this at -7db from an 85db reference point? If so, when i run my F113 at that level I can clearly hear distortion (limiter). Your initial results leads me to believe that I have a faulty sub.

mojomike and ribbit, you guys need to read more carefully. He did have the volume set to 78dB for dialog. A setting of 75dB can result in 105dB max output per channel and 115dB for LFE. It just so happens that these pulses are not recorded that loud (only 90dB). Other parts of the movie, would probably be much louder. If he were to turn the overall volume up another 15dB, that means his system would be required to handle 125dB+ volumes which may be asking a little too much for a small 12" subwoofer, even one that costs $2700.

Mr Manvillev Smith,

"With the overall level set pretty loud (dialog around 78dB SPL)"

What is this from reference volume so that I and others can compare? Is this at -7db from an 85db reference point? If so, when i run my F113 at that level I can clearly hear distortion (limiter). Your initial results leads me to believe that I have a faulty sub.

scanido, how are you calibrating your system? If you are using the receivers test tones, you should calibrate to 75dB. You should only calibrate to 85dB if you are using the AVIA test disc because it's recorded at -20dB, verses the -30dB of the test tones put out by the receiver. Both result in reference volume.

mojomike and ribbit, you guys need to read more carefully. He did have the volume set to 78dB for dialog. A setting of 75dB can result in 105dB max output per channel and 115dB for LFE. It just so happens that these pulses are not recorded that loud (only 90dB). Other parts of the movie, would probably be much louder. If he were to turn the overall volume up another 15dB, that means his system would be required to handle 125dB+ volumes which may be asking a little too much for a small 12" subwoofer, even one that costs $2700.

I understand your point, but just for the hell of it I ran the opening Coverfield logo using just a single SB12 Plus and was able to achieve a 95db reading on the ol' Radio Shack meter in my large, wide-open room before notable distortion set in. It sounded neither loud or impressive, but did hit 95db. Obviously an f112 or f113 should be able to excede this by a wide margin.

And it can. I'll check it with mine.

What is the time stamp in the movie? Is it in the first 5 seconds of the movie?

Ok, I just tested it at +3dB and I got 96dB on my spl meter. The woofer on my F112 was nowhere near maximum excursion. The sound itself does sound a little weird. It doesn't sound like clean bass to me. It has the same sound no matter what volume I'm at, it just gets louder as I turn the volume up. It sounds like there are a lot of harmonics in the recording. Compare this to the scene in Spiderman 3 where the sand man is created to hear what I mean.

The sand scene is a great way to test out the merit of your sub (s). I have done extensive testing with the F113 vs. SVS PB-13 and their is really no comparison. The SVS still makes the hair on the back of neck and arms for that matter to stand up....as my kids would say it is awesome. :D

I only point to this scene because it is basically like a very loud sine wave. I certainly wouldn't buy a subwoofer just based on this one scene.

scanido, how are you calibrating your system? If you are using the receivers test tones, you should calibrate to 75dB. You should only calibrate to 85dB if you are using the AVIA test disc because it's recorded at -20dB, verses the -30dB of the test tones put out by the receiver. Both result in reference volume.

Avia, all levels matched at 85db.

I only point to this scene because it is basically like a very loud sine wave. I certainly wouldn't buy a subwoofer just based on this one scene.


The point of this scene is a few members, including myself, are hitting the limiter at a premature volume level. If Mr Manville smith is able to play the scene at 78db easily with an F112 and my F113 is struggling then I would think something is wrong with my sub.

BTW - The sub is in a 4500 cubic foot room.

Scanido, I was referring to the Spiderman scene, sorry to be confusing. I just tested my F112 and I hit 96dB in the Cloverfield scene, no problems. How far away from the sub are you? What exactly does the distortion sound like? Also how far is the woofer moving? The F113 can move over 3 inches peak to peak.

Ok, I just tested it at +3dB and I got 96dB on my spl meter. The woofer on my F112 was nowhere near maximum excursion. The sound itself does sound a little weird. It doesn't sound like clean bass to me. It has the same sound no matter what volume I'm at, it just gets louder as I turn the volume up. It sounds like there are a lot of harmonics in the recording. Compare this to the scene in Spiderman 3 where the sand man is created to hear what I mean.

Exactly, which is why I suspect that the signal itself is dirty (probably on purpose), as I stated in my earlier post.

My twin f112's can produce well over 110dB SPL in my room without any distress and with very demanding material. With music they play loud enough to create true stupid-loud concert levels, too. They sit in a very large space that consists of a family room, kitchen, living room, dining room and entry with 12 - 16 ft. ceilings. I haven't the time to calculate the cubic footage of this space exactly but it is probably around 17,000 cu.ft. My listening position is 13 ft. away from the subs (and this is where I placed the mic.)

The reason I chose the playback levels for this test that I did was to replicate the conditions that those who were hearing the problem witnessed. They said that, at normal playback levels, the f113 was distorting on these pulses with the sub set at 0 to +3dB from reference. I noted no distortion other than some "hashiness" in the sound of those pulses, which appear to be clipped bass drum beats. I suspect that this hashiness is in the recording. The subs aren't working very hard at all during these pulses (they aren't recorded very loud at all). Other parts of this movie get much louder.

If you only hear this hashy sound during the opening scene of Cloverfield, then it's probably not the subwoofer's fault... but as I stated before, we will test f113's this coming week and measure the signal going into the sub's amp and into the driver to see what is really going on.

Nobody is trying to hide anything here, so let's keep it civil. Thanks.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Thanks Manville.. How would you describe the sound? What I'm getting sounds similar to coffee perculating and it's only for a second. Sort of a muffled sound.. I can make it happen if in I am Legend if I go well above ref (maybe +3 or more..)

Thanks Manville.. How would you describe the sound? What I'm getting sounds similar to coffee perculating and it's only for a second. Sort of a muffled sound.. I can make it happen if in I am Legend if I go well above ref (maybe +3 or more..)

I'm not sure about "I am Legend"... but the sound of the Limiter releasing in a rapid cycle is kind of like that, I guess... I'm basing this on the only time I've heard it and that was with the server room scene in "Pulse", which is extremely demanding and gives the amplifier quite a workout at high playback levels. The scene in "Pulse" is particularly tough because the low freq. pulses cycle very quickly and repetitively, causing the limiter to not release fast enough between the pulses.. this causes the noise on that material. There is no way that is happening on the Cloverfield material... it is neither loud enough, deep enough or fast enough in its cycling to trip up the limiter like that. If something is going on, it's likely something else.

I will leave the door open to being completely wrong here, this is why I would like to do more precise tests where we can compare the input signal to the amplifier's output to the driver. In the meantime, the above is my best guess based on the limited test I did. More to come.

The test I did was no where near reference as i do not want to damage the sub. At only 75-76db from reference I could hear the anamoly when seated about 8ft from the sub. Since the scene is bass only, I can easily decipher the subtle tapping-like sound when i reach that threshold. That tapping sound only starts to get louder over the smooth like bass when I increase the volume a few db higher. In terms of excursion, I look at the JL logo and it doesn't look like it's extending even to 3".

So this weekend, I watched Alien VS Predator Requiem at 75db and this movie is great for bass, however my F113 was distorting in the more demanding scenes!! I had to replay the scenes with the sub only as the mains usually cover up any distortion of the sub. I'm only beginning to notice this now especially since playing that Cloverfield intro scene.

I'm glad to know that this just may only be my faulty sub, as I would be terribly dissapointed if this is what $4000 CAD bought.

The test I did was no where near reference as i do not want to damage the sub. At only 75-76db from reference I could hear the anamoly when seated about 8ft from the sub. Since the scene is bass only, I can easily decipher the subtle tapping-like sound when i reach that threshold. That tapping sound only starts to get louder over the smooth like bass when I increase the volume a few db higher. In terms of excursion, I look at the JL logo and it doesn't look like it's extending even to 3".

So this weekend, I watched Alien VS Predator Requiem at 75db and this movie is great for bass, however my F113 was distorting in the more demanding scenes!! I had to replay the scenes with the sub only as the mains usually cover up any distortion of the sub. I'm only beginning to notice this now especially since playing that Cloverfield intro scene.

I'm glad to know that this just may only be my faulty sub, as I would be terribly dissapointed if this is what $4000 CAD bought.

When you say you're at 75dB, do you mean for dialog, or the bass? 75dB dialog is reference volume. What does the tapping sound like? Does it sound like someone knocking on a door? Where did you buy the sub? Maybe you can take it to the dealer and compare to their floor model.

mojomike and ribbit, you guys need to read more carefully. He did have the volume set to 78dB for dialog. A setting of 75dB can result in 105dB max output per channel and 115dB for LFE. It just so happens that these pulses are not recorded that loud (only 90dB). Other parts of the movie, would probably be much louder. If he were to turn the overall volume up another 15dB, that means his system would be required to handle 125dB+ volumes which may be asking a little too much for a small 12" subwoofer, even one that costs $2700.

yes, but the more important info is: both manville's and the other guys': distance to subwoofer AND room size

The sand scene is a great way to test out the merit of your sub (s). I have done extensive testing with the F113 vs. SVS PB-13 and their is really no comparison. The SVS still makes the hair on the back of neck and arms for that matter to stand up....as my kids would say it is awesome. :D

why are you still here? don't you hate JL?

me ... i'm still trying to convince myself.

Manville has a huge listening area and sits 13 feet from the sub.

I think I'm going to wait to see what Manville comes back with his results of a single f113 at the shop. If they don't have any issues then I guess I need to arrange to send this sub back to JL for repair. I find it hard to believe that both Scanido and I have faulty subs with the same symptoms but I suppose it's possible.

Who lives in northern NJ with a JL Audio F113? I would like to get another opinion from a fellow F113 neighbor on this Cloverfield issue. I need to know if I'm nu-nuts or not :). I played the pulses again in Cloverfield. The first two or three I can reproduce but can eliminate if I drop the LFE trim down by -3db from reference but the final two pulses before the next scene triggers what I think is the limiter no matter how low I reduce the trim. For sure the sound is mechanical either way. Almost as if the sub rattles for a moment

Who lives in northern NJ with a JL Audio F113? I would like to get another opinion from a fellow F113 neighbor on this Cloverfield issue. I need to know if I'm nu-nuts or not :). I played the pulses again in Cloverfield. The first two or three I can reproduce but can eliminate if I drop the LFE trim down by -3db from reference but the final two pulses before the next scene triggers what I think is the limiter no matter how low I reduce the trim. For sure the sound is mechanical either way. Almost as if the sub rattles for a moment

I would say this is the same sound we are hearing. THere's like a higher pitch rattling noise to the sub.

With regard to the failure exhibited by Frockc's f113...

Based on the video sent to us by Frockc, it appears that the driver suffered a separation of the upper and lower cone bodies where they meet in the center. This results in the loud tapping sound heard in his video (the upper and lower cone bodies smacking against each other). While this is a rare failure, it is one we have seen before in our car audio versions of the W7 drivers. This is the first time we have seen it in a Fathom (but, there's a first time for everything).

It is likely that the glue bond on these two parts did not set according to spec. during driver assembly and resulted in a sub-par bond that held until Frockc mercilessly flogged his f113 with Darla over and over again. :)

No amount of electronic limiting would have prevented this failure... it is simply an assembly defect in the driver and would have reared its ugly head at some point even if he hadn't flogged his f113. We will dissect Frockc's woofer when we get it back to see what happened exactly, but in the meantime we will replace his f113 so he isn't further inconvenienced.

In other words, let's move along now... nothing to see here. :)

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

I tried to play the video that this member posted earlier, but unfortunately it is not up anymore. The description of the issue sounds similar to what I am hearing, albeit on a more subtle level. Could it be my sub is experiencing this issue?

I tried to play the video that this member posted earlier, but unfortunately it is not up anymore. The description of the issue sounds similar to what I am hearing, albeit on a more subtle level. Could it be my sub is experiencing this issue?

Here's the video.. I found it...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnXFuesr2tg&feature=related

Scanido, I just realized you're in Toronto - as am I. I have 4-F113s and have a bit of experience with them (just 2 hooked up at the moment). If you live close by I don't mind popping by and taking a peak at your sub and you can take a listen to mine with the same material. This will help you determine if there is something wrong...

i can try and find my video of the old faulty sub and post it again... I want to first say that JL is a first class business and they hire first class people... They sent me a new sub that works great... I also think it was the end scene of Pulse that really did my sub in... I wander if they ever posted what happend with that defective sub... That video that was just posted is not what mine sounded like... I think it was more of a metal clacking sound...

Hey Frockc.. I would say that's how mine sounds.. was it on all scenes or certain pulses did you hear the clanking? Hope you can find the video you made.. I'm going to try and record my symptom as well...

Here's the video.. I found it...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnXFuesr2tg&feature=related

wow, i felt dirty watching that video, like i was watching a very intimate moment

That video does not reflect what issue I'm seeing. Maybe at the extreme, but mine also sounds like tapping-clacking like sound.

Scanido, I just realized you're in Toronto - as am I. I have 4-F113s and have a bit of experience with them (just 2 hooked up at the moment). If you live close by I don't mind popping by and taking a peak at your sub and you can take a listen to mine with the same material. This will help you determine if there is something wrong...

Hey Bogg, thanks for the offer. I'll see how this shakes out first from the folks at JL. I'll see if i can get a video of this as well to post.

Just a quick update. Found a local AVS member with a single F113. Brought over my copy of Cloverfield. We played the opening scene twice. Once at about -10 from ref and again -5 from ref. Both times the pulses played clean. My next steps here are to defeat ARO and just calibrate to 75db ref through the proc and retest. Finally, I'll rerun ARO and see what we get. However, I that this point I'm pretty much convinced this is a defective sub. :(

Thrang - Thanks for your help! Great setup btw! :)

I haven't been able to find the video but it was a very distinct metal clanking sound... I think it happend anytime i really pushed the sub close to refernce... Very distinct sound...

I thought I'd check and see if my pair of F113s were making any funny noises so I turned off all my speakers and left just the subs on. WOTW pod scene at -5db and at reference level. There was some serious woofer excursion. There were noises coming from my track lighting strip rattling and other things shaking - and this is in a purpose-built room! I'm not sure if the woofer was making any abnormal noises or if it was part of the sound effects from the movie. In any case it didn't blow up or anything.

I had it at -5 from reference when demoing for my sister-in-law. My wife came in the room with a scowl on her face because she had thought the washing machine was acting up and making all the floor-shaking noises!

are you guys saying that reference is 0 dB on the display screen of the processor? if that is the case, isnt that exceptionally/excessively loud? (I realize that volume level is dependant on the size of the room.) i listen at a reference level of -20dB on my Anthem D2 in my 14ft x 20ft x 10ft room and it is just right for me.

Who lives in northern NJ with a JL Audio F113? I would like to get another opinion from a fellow F113 neighbor on this Cloverfield issue. I need to know if I'm nu-nuts or not :).

CSA Audio in Montclair is a very knowledgeable JL Audio dealer in North Jersey... They have both an f112 and f113 (and soon a f110) on display.

glennQ

Just a quick update. Found a local AVS member with a single F113. Brought over my copy of Cloverfield. We played the opening scene twice. Once at about -10 from ref and again -5 from ref. Both times the pulses played clean. My next steps here are to defeat ARO and just calibrate to 75db ref through the proc and retest. Finally, I'll rerun ARO and see what we get. However, I that this point I'm pretty much convinced this is a defective sub. :(

Thrang - Thanks for your help! Great setup btw! :)

Thanks, and no problem - if there's anything else you want to test, let me know.

BTW, did you speak with Jack?:)

are you guys saying that reference is 0 dB on the display screen of the processor? if that is the case, isnt that exceptionally/excessively loud? (I realize that volume level is dependant on the size of the room.) i listen at a reference level of -20dB on my Anthem D2 in my 14ft x 20ft x 10ft room and it is just right for me.

I have the D2 also. If you calibrate your mains etc... to 75db then 0 is considered "reference level" which means a peak output in each channel of 105db and 115db peak for the lfe channel. I don't know if that's true for both dolby and dts but you are correct that it is very loud for some movies that are recorded "hot". WOTW is very loud at -5 and louder. I don't listen at that volume, it's just for showing off or annoying someone nearby!

My two f113's have arrived...now to get them in the basement.

Mark

yeah, that sounds a bit too loud for me, even for a demo. i just bump it a few dB to show off, most of the time they cannot handle my normal volume.

My two f113's have arrived...now to get them in the basement.

Mark

The green feet on the box are really soft, and are meant to sit on your back while you walk the box down the stairs into the basement.

Just kidding, DON'T do that.

Good luck. Let us know what you think when you've had a chance to evaluate them.

The green feet on the box are really soft, and are meant to sit on your back while you walk the box down the stairs into the basement.

Just kidding, DON'T do that.

Good luck. Let us know what you think when you've had a chance to evaluate them.


You do know that there is some moron out there that will try that. lol

The green feet on the box are really soft, and are meant to sit on your back while you walk the box down the stairs into the basement.

Just kidding, DON'T do that.

Good luck. Let us know what you think when you've had a chance to evaluate them.

Actually, I used a hand truck to get them into the house (up two steps, using legs to lift) and to the basement steps.

Then, I walked backwards down the stairs while holding and sliding the box (on its side) down the stairs.

Once in the basement, the hand truck was used to get them in the theater.

I opened up the boxes, followed the unpacking instructions, and voila!

That's as far as I got. I have two "young-ins" under four, so time is limited during the week nights.

One thing is for sure...these subs are built like the proverbial brick outhouse!

Mark

Ok, folks… here’s the scoop on the Cloverfield opening “Bad Robot” sequence.

Eric Krumme (one of our engineers) and I tested an f112 and an f113 with the scene in question and turned the sub level up pretty high, with excursion exceeding 2 inches on the last drum hit. They both made a gurgly, rattly noise from the third to the last drum hit.

We also happened to have some competitors’ subwoofers laying around. A Revel B15, A Velodyne SPL 12, a little James sub and a Paradigm ported sub (don’t remember the model number). We played the “Bad Robot” sequence and guess what… drum roll, please… THEY ALL RATTLED in a very similar fashion. The high frequency content of the rattle varied (probably due to different LP filtering or woofer inductances), but they all did it to about the same extent. A photo of the subs we tested is available at the link at the bottom of this post.

So, unless all of us manufacturers have designed the same problem into all of these subs, it’s likely the noise is actually in the signal to begin with. To verify, we recorded the LFE output of the Denon receiver (with all satellite channels set to “small” so all the bass was routed to the LFE channel) to a wave file (available at link at bottom of this post)

And then we looked at the waveform graphically in an editing program (the image on the linked page is of the last drum hit, the loudest one). As you will see, there is a bunch of higher frequency garbage in the signal, confirming the theory I proposed after running tests in my home.

In other words, if you hear a rattly noise during this intro sequence, the Fathom (or any other subwoofer) is only reproducing the signal being fed to it and is not defective… In this case, the recording engineers were defective.

LINK TO PHOTO GRAPH and WAV FILE: http://www.jlaudio.com/home/cloverfield/

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

thanks for testing Manville Smith.

is that a white velo SPL? ;)

moral of the story ... JJ abrams should be shot.
(did I say that aloud?)

Thanks Manville. I'm glad we can put this (non)issue to rest.

glennQ

F113 Demo Test Question - I recently purchased an F113 and want to verify the unit is working properly. I don't have my speakers (or other gear as yet) so I ran the F113 Demo test by itself. First, the manuel says the "test" should run 20 seconds and mine runs approx. 10 seconds. Also, I turned up the volume quite high and I barely hear/feel the test response. Is the unit working properly? I would appreciate everyones opinion, Manville in particular. Thanks Guys.

michael630... make sure the "Level Mode" switch is set on "Variable", then adjust the Master level knob upwards... the demo sweeps should be fairly loud and should cycle twice for each press of the "demo" button.

Thanks for the quick reply Manville. Yes, I have the level mode set to variable and I had the master level knob turned full clockwise (5:00). Only when "fully" cranked do I get some floor vibration. My family room is 19L X 17W X 18H with a full basement beneath. The room has a wood floor and the sub is against a wall that is almost all glass. When set to the 3:00 position it sounds like a truck driving away in the distance. My wife says it doesn't seem loud to her.

You should definitely feel it as it's running through the demo.

I have a F113 and conducted a demo test with a SPL meter
The duration of the sweep was app 10 secounds. This was 2 cycles through.
The sub started @ 84 db and peaked @ 93-94 db.
Volume was full up.
Manville is this what one should expect?

Manville Smith,

Thanks so much into looking into this for us!

Just to confirm, when you say the "Bad Robot Sequence" is this the scene of the first few seconds of the film, correct?

If so, what SPL did you begin to notice the rattly-like sound and I'm glad I do not have to worry about lugging this beast around!

Manville Smith,

Thanks so much into looking into this for us!

You're very welcome.

Just to confirm, when you say the "Bad Robot Sequence" is this the scene of the first few seconds of the film, correct?

That is correct. When you hit Play from the main menu, the screen goes black and the drum hits begin at a low level, each one getting louder and then the "Bad Robot" logo (production company, I think) comes on the screen.

If so, what SPL did you begin to notice the rattly-like sound and I'm glad I do not have to worry about lugging this beast around!

I didn't take any SPL measurements during these tests, but if you put your ear near the sub (within a couple of feet), you don't have to play it very loud at all to hear it. It's easier to hear at high levels, and does sound like something is wrong, so I understand why you were concerned... but it's actually in the recording.

Hopefully they'll fix that issue for the Blu Ray release...

I doubt there is anything to fix. I'm thinking it sounds like it does because that's how they want it to sound.

Hopefully they'll fix that issue for the Blu Ray release...

It's really no big deal... and isn't even in the actual movie, just the production company credit. The rest of the movie's soundtrack is just fine.

Hmm... does this mean other speaker setup people arent able to catch those rattle as in jlaudio subwoofer beeing good at reproduce this rattle ?

Hmm... does this mean other speaker setup people arent able to catch those rattle as in jlaudio subwoofer beeing good at reproduce this rattle ?

To some extent, yes. Depending on the inductance of the woofer, the low-pass filtering or bandwidth limitations of the amplifier and the overall distortion of the subwoofer at a given level, the noise may be harder or easier to identify.

A sub with more HF extension, lower inductance and lower distortion will reveal the noise best.

For example, the little James subwoofer we tested is a bandpass design using a passive radiator instead of the port, so the active woofer does not play directly into the listening environment and the noise is less obvious, but it's still there if you listen closely.

How long can subwoofer be disconnected from power/turned off before ARO setting is deleted and has to re run aro ?

How long can subwoofer be disconnected from power/turned off before ARO setting is deleted and has to re run aro ?

A long time... years, decades maybe. The settings are stored in non-volatile Flash memory.

A long time... years, decades maybe. The settings are stored in non-volatile Flash memory.

I will test this starting tomorrow. I will post in 2012 with an update.

I will test this starting tomorrow. I will post in 2012 with an update.
At least you won't need to worry about which EQ to use. :D:D:D

Craig

Anybody played with the F110? Im thinking of getting it for a small room and was curious if you guys had any input on it.

Anybody played with the F110? Im thinking of getting it for a small room and was curious if you guys had any input on it.

We haven't released the f110 quite yet (it will ship in July), but here is a good preview on it, courtesy of Carl Kennedy's blog:

http://theprofessionalanswer.com/WordPress/?p=119#more-119

We haven't released the f110 quite yet (it will ship in July), but here is a good preview on it, courtesy of Carl Kennedy's blog:

http://theprofessionalanswer.com/WordPress/?p=119#more-119

What size are those F110 ? (depth,height,width) sounds like something one can put behind sofa or beside... two of F113 in front and 2 F110 back ?

If anyone, and I repeat ANYONE! is thinking about getting the JL sub,
GET IT!!!
All I did is unpack, place, and enjoy! :D
I will do the set-up latter but had to listen to them now and I tell you if they get any better than this, I'M NOT LEAVING HOME! :eek:

I got two f112's and funny thing is they came at separate times (within the same day) and it hooked up the first one and thought WOW! When I had a chance to listen to both, Well I'll be watching every movie I own AGAIN for a NEW EXPERIENCE!!!

I recommend for ANYONE thinking about a sub, buy what you can with JL. You won't be sorry.

Interesting results.. I guess my only question would be is why did the drum beats play clean on a neighbor's F113 and I think you mentioned it played clean on your F112 at home? Maybe I missed something.. Sorry for the silly question.


Ok, folks… here’s the scoop on the Cloverfield opening “Bad Robot” sequence.

Eric Krumme (one of our engineers) and I tested an f112 and an f113 with the scene in question and turned the sub level up pretty high, with excursion exceeding 2 inches on the last drum hit. They both made a gurgly, rattly noise from the third to the last drum hit.

We also happened to have some competitors’ subwoofers laying around. A Revel B15, A Velodyne SPL 12, a little James sub and a Paradigm ported sub (don’t remember the model number). We played the “Bad Robot” sequence and guess what… drum roll, please… THEY ALL RATTLED in a very similar fashion. The high frequency content of the rattle varied (probably due to different LP filtering or woofer inductances), but they all did it to about the same extent. A photo of the subs we tested is available at the link at the bottom of this post.

So, unless all of us manufacturers have designed the same problem into all of these subs, it’s likely the noise is actually in the signal to begin with. To verify, we recorded the LFE output of the Denon receiver (with all satellite channels set to “small” so all the bass was routed to the LFE channel) to a wave file (available at link at bottom of this post)

And then we looked at the waveform graphically in an editing program (the image on the linked page is of the last drum hit, the loudest one). As you will see, there is a bunch of higher frequency garbage in the signal, confirming the theory I proposed after running tests in my home.

In other words, if you hear a rattly noise during this intro sequence, the Fathom (or any other subwoofer) is only reproducing the signal being fed to it and is not defective… In this case, the recording engineers were defective.

LINK TO PHOTO GRAPH and WAV FILE: http://www.jlaudio.com/home/cloverfield/

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Interesting results.. I guess my only question would be is why did the drum beats play clean on a neighbor's F113 and I think you mentioned it played clean on your F112 at home? Maybe I missed something.. Sorry for the silly question.

I'm not sure about your neighbor's setup, but in the case of my test at home:

I did not run them anywhere near as loud as the test at JL and I could not hear the problem at my seat, but I did hear some grunge in the signal at close range and I mentioned that I thought it was in the recording.

What size are those F110 ? (depth,height,width) sounds like something one can put behind sofa or beside... two of F113 in front and 2 F110 back ?

(H) Height x (W) Width x (D) Depth: 15.64 in x 12.92 in. x 17.27 in. (397 mm x 328 mm x 439 mm)

Spec-wise, the f110 does not look particularly impressive for what it costs.

27 – 111 Hz (±1.5dB)
–3 dB at 25 Hz / 120 Hz
–10 dB at 19 Hz / 155 Hz

900 watts RMS short-term

All this for $2000 in a not-so-tiny 15.64 in x 12.92 in. x 17.27 in. box. Hopefully it sounds better than it's numbers look.

At least you won't need to worry about which EQ to use. :D:D:D

Craig

Actually, in my more foul moods, I've discovered that if I turn everything off, it's somehow...perfect....:)

Spec-wise, the f110 does not look particularly impressive for what it costs.

27 – 111 Hz (±1.5dB)
–3 dB at 25 Hz / 120 Hz
–10 dB at 19 Hz / 155 Hz

All this for $2000 in a not-so-tiny 15.64 in x 12.92 in. x 17.27 in. box. Hopefully it sounds better than it's numbers look.

An anechoic frequency response of 27-111hz +/- 1.5dB sounds pretty stellar to me...

glennQ

An anechoic frequency response of 27-111hz +/- 1.5dB sounds pretty stellar to me...

glennQ

Agreed, I see that Axiom has rated their EP400 at 28Hz -1.5db anechoic and I was getting usable 20Hz out of that thing in-room.

An anechoic frequency response of 27-111hz +/- 1.5dB sounds pretty stellar to me...

glennQ

If you compare specs to a couple of similar products that are close in price and size, the Velodyne DD-10 and the DD-12, you would see that either can surpass the f110's anechoic response, features 1250 watts continuous power (3000 peak), and feature built-in SMS-1 eq as a bonus. I'm not seeing how on paper how the JL holds up well to it's competitors. In practice, it may or may not sound better than it's competitors. That yet remains to be seen (heard).

If you compare specs to a couple of similar products that are close in price and size, the Velodyne DD-10 and the DD-12, you would see that either can surpass the f110's anechoic response...

Are you sure? It is not clear if the Velodyne spec is measured in anechoic conditions.

For reference:
http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/1484/screenshotbx3.jpg

I'd think the crew over in Miramar has done a competitive analysis...

glennQ

A good point of reference would be tests done by AV Talks. These are outdoor ground-plane measurements done in a similar fashion to the way Ilkka does them. They should be comparable to anechoic.
http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=18355&start=0&rid=0&SQ=0
http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index.php?t=msg&th=22961&start=0&rid=0&SQ=0

Thanks again Manville for taking the time to test Cloverfield again. I also wanted to add that I recalibrated the sub to 75db ref and the rattle stopped but if I go back to 85db it comes back. So I guess the garbage the engineers added to cloverfield pushes the sub beyond it's limits when running at 85db ref?

Thanks again Manville for taking the time to test Cloverfield again. I also wanted to add that I recalibrated the sub to 75db ref and the rattle stopped but if I go back to 85db it comes back. So I guess the garbage the engineers added to cloverfield pushes the sub beyond it's limits when running at 85db ref?

The rattle is just a reproduction from the stored sound in taped output, it's not subwoofer that goes in distortion

Thanks again Manville for taking the time to test Cloverfield again. I also wanted to add that I recalibrated the sub to 75db ref and the rattle stopped but if I go back to 85db it comes back. So I guess the garbage the engineers added to cloverfield pushes the sub beyond it's limits when running at 85db ref?

I may have already asked you this, but how are you calibrating? If you are using test tones from your receiver and you calibrate to 85dB you are 10dB too high. You should only calibrate to 85dB when using the AVIA test disc. If you calibrate to 75dB with AVIA then you are 10dB too low.

I'm using test tones from the proc. So I should recal to 75db? I guess I hear different opinions on this..

Thanks again Manville for taking the time to test Cloverfield again. I also wanted to add that I recalibrated the sub to 75db ref and the rattle stopped but if I go back to 85db it comes back. So I guess the garbage the engineers added to cloverfield pushes the sub beyond it's limits when running at 85db ref?

I'm using test tones from the proc. So I should recal to 75db? I guess I hear different opinions on this..
Depends on the receiver. If the receiver uses 75 dB test tones and a Master Volume Control setting of 0, then it expects you to set the levels to 75 with the MVC at 0. You can set them higher but you may overdrive the preamp outputs and/or the power amp inputs. This may actually be some of the distortion you're hearing. Re-cal to 75 and see if it goes away.

Craig

I'm using test tones from the proc. So I should recal to 75db? I guess I hear different opinions on this..

I use the test tones in my processor, which are bandwidth-limited, and calibrate the subs to 78dB using the Rat Shack analog meter. The radio shack meter is not so accurate in the lower frequencies, in case anyone never heard that before.

Mark

This is a silly question so please don't laugh :). I'm using a Radio Shack analog meter. When setting the wheel to 70 or 80, to reach 75db or 85db is it "0" on the meter or +5 on the meter. As some of you know, the analog meter has a scale -10 to +6 and 0 in the center. In the past, I always set to "0" or dead center.

Sorry for the stupid question .. :(

You should use the -5 dB mark. Set the wheel to 80 to measure 75dB or 90 to measure 85dB.

If you set it to 70 then you should be going to +5 to get to 75.
If you set to 80 then you should be hitting -5 to get to 75....

I think either way is a horse apiece...

Thanks guys! So Avia being the exception, the goal is 75db all speakers including the sub. Anyone going a litter hotter on the sub?

Just a quick peek here...

So any new JL Audio subs? So far it is all good for my JL's,they provide loads of quality subsonic content and will blend like a charm with my sealed array(be part of it).

Good subbing

Why is it that the distortion is only heard at a certain threshold (+76db for me) and not during moderate levels, if indeed this was in the recording??? The sub should be outputting this noise at most audible levels. And a few members have eluded to testing this scene and experiencing NO noise. How do we explain this.

I'm not convinced!!!

BTW - I finished watching Alien VS Predator at -8db below reference and my F113 was stressing in the movie??? With just the sub on during more intense scenes, I could clearly hear the same kind of distortion (rattling like noise).

That's my question.. I don't have the issue at -10 or even -5 if I'm calibrated at 75db ref. Non of this makes sense.

It really sounds as if you guys need more subwoofage. You've reached the limits to which your JL's can cleanly go and you need to double up.

Why is it that the distortion is only heard at a certain threshold (+76db for me) and not during moderate levels, if indeed this was in the recording??? The sub should be outputting this noise at most audible levels. And a few members have eluded to testing this scene and experiencing NO noise. How do we explain this.

I'm not convinced!!!

BTW - I finished watching Alien VS Predator at -8db below reference and my F113 was stressing in the movie??? With just the sub on during more intense scenes, I could clearly hear the same kind of distortion (rattling like noise).


I'm a little confused here.

Are you saying that you can hear the distortion at 76 dbs but not louder?

Or there is no distortion until it hits 76 dbs and remains distorted at that level and above?

Why is it that the distortion is only heard at a certain threshold (+76db for me) and not during moderate levels, if indeed this was in the recording??? The sub should be outputting this noise at most audible levels. And a few members have eluded to testing this scene and experiencing NO noise. How do we explain this.

I'm not convinced!!!

BTW - I finished watching Alien VS Predator at -8db below reference and my F113 was stressing in the movie??? With just the sub on during more intense scenes, I could clearly hear the same kind of distortion (rattling like noise).

JLaudio tested other brands subwoofers and got distortion on those subs too.. so it lies within sound and not in subs...

As Tony mentioned, he stopped by my home with Cloverfield, and we successfully played it at -10 and -5 db on my system, with two subs in the mix - the Fathom 113 and a DefTech Supercube 1. Both were connected to a Velodyone SMS-1 and the calibrated. Both subs sit on Auralex platforms. There are very modest room treatments in place, including some home built 4' corner chunks in the rears

The Fathom was initially internally calibrated via ARO, and the whole system underwent an 8 point Audyssey calibration via my Onkyo 905. We checked the final SPL level for the subs and tweaked the trim to 75 db. As Tony reported, no distortion with Cloverfield. Shook the hell out of my room, and made me go out and buy more sticky tack and silicone sealant for another round of rattle reduction....:). Not the most appealing bass sound other, but there was no rattle

I have found that a device like the SMS-1 has been a great help in achieving a much flatter bass response in the room, and assuring that I can avoid a frequency dip at the crossover, and minimize other peaks and nulls the low frequency. These conditions can often lead to a sense of inadequate bass, causing one to turn up the sub output to compensate for weak areas, but simultaneously overdrive already saturated frequencies in other areas.

My other subjective point of view is there is just such an enormous latitude in how audio is mixed, that's it's often not a set and forget it especially when it comes to LFE/Sub levels (this is another nice reason to use the SMS, as you can store 6 user presets, each with different settings, including sub volume, which are accessible via remote, and I think, could easily be incorporated into any master remote macro). So for example, I find most DirectTV or cable material to be lacking in bass, even on multichannel material - so I use a preset the bumps the calibrated level to around 78 or 79 db. But when watching DTS-MA or True HD tracks, I'll drop it back to the original SMS set-up level, or even a few db below, because for my taste/room, I find that many of the latest release seem to have a very hot LFE track that can overpower the system balance

Eventually, I'll replace the Supercube with another Fathom or perhaps a SVS Ultra 13, and beside having even a smoother response, I'll need to buy even more sticky tack and sealant...:)

It really sounds as if you guys need more subwoofage. You've reached the limits to which your JL's can cleanly go and you need to double up.

If I pushed the sub hot to 90+ I might buy that but at 75db? On the master volume control it's set at about 9 o'clock. I can't imagine I'm pushing this sub.

Re: Cloverfield

C'mon guys...
Do you hear that behavior with any actual scene in the movie?
Do you hear it with any other movie or music material?
Did you guys look at the waveform I posted? Or download the WAV file and analyze it?

I couldn't hear it at normal playback levels at my seat, either.... I could hear it with my ear near the subs and the satellites muted. The noise is significantly lower in level than the bass energy in the track, so it may be hard to hear at lower levels. Orientation of the sub and reflectivity of the floor may also affect it. (My room is carpeted).

The subwoofer is not being pushed to any limits with this scene... the cone excursion will tell you that. This is not anything like the Pulse "Server Room" scene.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Hey Manville,

It sounds like somebody needs to pay a visit to this store in Montreal and get their F113 set up correctly:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=13942827#post13942827

Craig

I can reproduce the same effect if I run the sub much hotter. I heard the same effect in two transition scenes in I am Legend. The very first drum beat after the news interview in the begining "3 Years Later..." and the final scene in chapter 3 when Will Smith closes all the doors and windows. He slams the last door before the next scene, screen goes dark.. SLAM! I hear the same effect but as I mentioned, it's only when I'm running the sub much hotter. Maybe 90db ref? Either way the effects from the sub are identical which leads me to believe the limiter is kicking in.

Re: Cloverfield

C'mon guys...
Do you hear that behavior with any actual scene in the movie?
Do you hear it with any other movie or music material?
Did you guys look at the waveform I posted? Or download the WAV file and analyze it?

I couldn't hear it at normal playback levels at my seat, either.... I could hear it with my ear near the subs and the satellites muted. The noise is significantly lower in level than the bass energy in the track, so it may be hard to hear at lower levels. Orientation of the sub and reflectivity of the floor may also affect it. (My room is carpeted).

The subwoofer is not being pushed to any limits with this scene... the cone excursion will tell you that. This is not anything like the Pulse "Server Room" scene.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

If you cannot take Manvilles word for it, then do everyone a favor and take your sub back. Obviously nothing he can say or prove will put your mind at ease, so just end your suffering and go buy another sub. In the end, that will be the only way you can resolve the issue because you seem reluctant to accept his expert opinion which is cooperated by JL's own scientific data of the scene in question.

I'm not questioning Manville's opinion. I want to make sure we're hearing the same problem. I felt it was important Manville gets all the facts.

what do you feel he is unclear about? he said that the rattling noise that you mention is present on the films soundtrack and is replicated by every single sub he has available at the JL factory. he also says that the noise is lower in level than the rest of the drum strikes and is really only audible when you have the sub playing at the "reference level" you keep referring to. i respectfully believe that it is you that is unclear on this issue and that you are critically afraid that you have a bad unit. if this fear of yours cannot be resolved to the point that you can accept it and move forward, then you will have to make other arrangements for your LFE purposes.

i have friends that share some of the same sort of issues that you have (a/v issues not JL issues) and they can never fully get passed those issues to simply enjoy their system. The result is, they have to get rid of the a/v unit in order to be happy, regardless if it is, in fact, the unit that is at fault. another trick you may try is to not listen to Cloverfield anymore. That and listen to your system at a reasonable level. you can enjoy your system much longer if you still have your sense of hearing.

Sounds similar to the issue the PB13 and some other subs had with the Pulse scene which had inverted waves or whatever it was. Because I watch that movie several times a day, I had to throw my PB13 to the curb ... :p

what do you feel he is unclear about? he said that the rattling noise that you mention is present on the films soundtrack and is replicated by every single sub he has available at the JL factory. he also says that the noise is lower in level than the rest of the drum strikes and is really only audible when you have the sub playing at the "reference level" you keep referring to. i respectfully believe that it is you that is unclear on this issue and that you are critically afraid that you have a bad unit. if this fear of yours cannot be resolved to the point that you can accept it and move forward, then you will have to make other arrangements for your LFE purposes.

i have friends that share some of the same sort of issues that you have (a/v issues not JL issues) and they can never fully get passed those issues to simply enjoy their system. The result is, they have to get rid of the a/v unit in order to be happy, regardless if it is, in fact, the unit that is at fault. another trick you may try is to not listen to Cloverfield anymore. That and listen to your system at a reasonable level. you can enjoy your system much longer if you still have your sense of hearing.

I'm the fellow AVS member that adidino visited (read my earlier posting in this thread) My sub system was calibrated to 75 db, and we played the Cloverfield scene at -10 and then -5 db on my Onkyo 905, and there was no rattling. I found a few more things to secure against vibration in my room, but no overt rattling from the Fathom. :)

Now, we were sort of listening for an obvious rattle - if there was some fainter issue that required, as Manville suggested, putting your head near the sub in his home test, we didn't hear/look for that.

My sub "system" is a Fathom 113 and a DefTech Supercube 1 connected to an SMS-1 equalizer. Fathom was ARO calibrated, then SMS calibration was run, then 8 point Audyssey, and then some final touch-ups in the SMS. So since I'm running two subs to get to 75 db, perhaps each sub individually is running at less than that, removing me further from any overdriving.

I'll bet getting the Cloverfield Blu Ray in a few weeks (we were using adidino's copy), so I'll give a more through test, and see if I can discern anything from my set-up

I can reproduce the same effect if I run the sub much hotter. I heard the same effect in two transition scenes in I am Legend. The very first drum beat after the news interview in the begining "3 Years Later..." and the final scene in chapter 3 when Will Smith closes all the doors and windows. He slams the last door before the next scene, screen goes dark.. SLAM! I hear the same effect but as I mentioned, it's only when I'm running the sub much hotter. Maybe 90db ref? Either way the effects from the sub are identical which leads me to believe the limiter is kicking in.

At those levels, could it be the Pre-Pro / Receiver clipping?

The limiter effect is quite different from the sound I hear during the Cloverfield intro.

Very well could be.. I'm using an old Adcom GTP 880 as a temp solution until Marantz releases their new pre/pro (sold my Anthem D2) so that's possible. The amp has plenty of power. I'm using a Theta Dreadnaught II.

Also, if this noise is in the soundtrack, how is it that Thrang cannot reproduce this distortion and Addino can, using the same disc?!?

I still haven't posted a video of what my sub is reproducing. But I find it hard to believe that this distortion is in the soundtrack as it is audible at say -6db below reference, but at -8 db it's non-existent. Which leads me to believe the sub is in question.

As far as i'm concerned, this issue is still open.

Scandido, I see you live in Toronto. Perhaps we can find some time for you to demonstrate for me this problem you described earlier. I have dual 113s and have never heard any of those artifacts. I doubt anyone is trying to mislead you about what you are hearing but its not clear to me that the problem is the sub. Hence my interest in hearing it first hand. :)

Scandido, I see you live in Toronto. Perhaps we can find some time for you to demonstrate for me this problem you described earlier. I have dual 113s and have never heard any of those artifacts. I doubt anyone is trying to mislead you about what you are hearing but its not clear to me that the problem is the sub. Hence my interest in hearing it first hand. :)

I'll take that offer! I am going to get Cloverfield on Bluray so I'll contact you when that comes out and we can test it then.

I made a video of the issue at hand. Can anyone suggest a site to host the video so I can post it?

Sounds similar to the issue the PB13 and some other subs had with the Pulse scene which had inverted waves or whatever it was. Because I watch that movie several times a day, I had to throw my PB13 to the curb ... :p

lol

I made a video of the issue at hand. Can anyone suggest a site to host the video so I can post it?

Try Photobucket. I use it for photos but they allow video upload as well.

Although this probably has been covered somewhere in the 133 pages :eek: I'm hoping that owners might give a little input on possible purchase.

I recently upgraded an older 10" velodyne to the fathom 113 (part of a major overhaul to my system) and I couldn't be more pleased with the purchase and feel it was $$$ well spent. As a result I'm seriously considering adding a second Fathom to my system. Do other fathom owners that have moved from one 113 to two or more feel the additional $$$ for multiple subs is worth it (any buyers remorse wishing the money had gone to other components etc.)? My room is ~20' x 20' with vaulted ceilings.

Although this probably has been covered somewhere in the 133 pages :eek: I'm hoping that owners might give a little input on possible purchase.

I recently upgraded an older 10" velodyne to the fathom 113 (part of a major overhaul to my system) and I couldn't be more pleased with the purchase and feel it was $$$ well spent. As a result I'm seriously considering adding a second Fathom to my system. Do other fathom owners that have moved from one 113 to two or more feel the additional $$$ for multiple subs is worth it (any buyers remorse wishing the money had gone to other components etc.)? My room is ~20' x 20' with vaulted ceilings.


Twodown,

I'm am thinking of a third and if necessary a fourth Fathom to add to my room! My room is 20x15 with the standard 8ft ceiling.The change in room response was amazing when I added the second Fathom into my system. I have to be honest I did have buyer remorse for about 20 minutes or so until I had the second subwoofer connected and ready to play.:D

Although this probably has been covered somewhere in the 133 pages :eek: I'm hoping that owners might give a little input on possible purchase.

I recently upgraded an older 10" velodyne to the fathom 113 (part of a major overhaul to my system) and I couldn't be more pleased with the purchase and feel it was $$$ well spent. As a result I'm seriously considering adding a second Fathom to my system. Do other fathom owners that have moved from one 113 to two or more feel the additional $$$ for multiple subs is worth it (any buyers remorse wishing the money had gone to other components etc.)? My room is ~20' x 20' with vaulted ceilings.
I went from 1 F112 to 2 F112's in my 3,700 cubic foot room. The difference was noticeable and not subtle. More headroom and greater "authority" to the bass. In addition, the bass is now more appropriately blended with the rest of the soundstage. Previously, I had my single F112 in the front, left corner. It was EQ'd with the ARO and was exceptionally flat down to 20 Hz. It was crossed at 80 Hz. Nonetheless, I could still tell that the bass energy was coming from the left side. It wasn't so much that I could "hear" the directionality of the bass from the left. It was more that I could "sense" it.

I now have my 2 F112's sitting between the left and right speakers and the CC. Bass energy now just comes in waves from the front soundstage. It's centered and it's locked up with the rest of the audio image.

Because they are not co-located, I only get about 3 dB of gain from the 2nd F112. However, that 3 dB of headroom is noticeable. The system is tighter, cleaner and "faster" than a single sub.

Of course, I did a lot of other upgrades at the same time, so some of the improvements are probably attributable to those upgrades. I added 7" thick bass traps to the front corners and I extended the acoustic treatments on the front and side walls. I went from a receiver, (Yamaha RXV-4600) to separates, (Onkyo 885 pre/pro and Cinenova Grande amps) and I replaced my Klipsch RB-75's/RC-7/RS-7's speakers with Atlantic Technology 8200e's THX Ultra2 speakers.

The Onkyo pre/pro has Audyssey MultEQ XT, so I'm not using ARO anymore. I'm still using an 80 Hz crossover, but Audyssey has much more EQ resolution in the bass than ARO. Also, it EQ's in the time domain as well as the frequency domain. It could be that the improvement in "tightness", "clean-ness" and "speed" of the bass may be due to the additional bass traps and Audyssey. Both of these improvements reduce "ringing" which should make the bass more defined and resolved.

Bottom line, it's hard to know which upgrade had the biggest impact. However, I feel pretty certain the improvement in the front soundstage of the bass is due to the dual subs. The pressure waves that are probably more "sensed" than "heard" now seem to come from the entire front soundstage, whereas previously they came from the left front corner.

Of course, if your plan is to co-locate the 2nd F113, none of this matters. You'll get 6 dB of headroom :eek: but none of the other benefits. If your primary sub location doesn't exhibit any directionality problems, and you have pretty flat FR, then 6 dB of headroom is nuthin' ta sneeze at. :D

Craig

Also, if this noise is in the soundtrack, how is it that Thrang cannot reproduce this distortion and Addino can, using the same disc?!?

I still haven't posted a video of what my sub is reproducing. But I find it hard to believe that this distortion is in the soundtrack as it is audible at say -6db below reference, but at -8 db it's non-existent. Which leads me to believe the sub is in question.

As far as i'm concerned, this issue is still open.

Apply some basic logic guys (unless you simply think I'm lying to you).

How is it that six different subwoofers reproduced the exact same noise when tested at high levels?

f112.. S/N 0000001
f113.. brand new unit fresh out of final QC
James
Velodyne SPL 12
Revel B15
Paradigm

If you don't believe that, download the wave file I recorded out of the receiver's subwoofer output and play it on some headphones... you will hear the noise.

At normal or lower playback levels, you may not hear it at the listening position, but if you get close to the subwoofer you will still hear the noise.

Twodown,

I'm am thinking of a third and if necessary a fourth Fathom to add to my room! My room is 20x15 with the standard 8ft ceiling.The change in room response was amazing when I added the second Fathom into my system. I have to be honest I did have buyer remorse for about 20 minutes or so until I had the second subwoofer connected and ready to play.:D
Sweet, I'm leaning this way especially since my dealer will give me a good price (same as first one) up until June 1 mark up...although my wife doesn't seem quite as excited :rolleyes:

Craig,

Thanks very much for the response. Our setup sounds very similar (fathom on left and second will not be co-localized) and I have undergone similar upgrades....moved to Dali Helicon 800s up front as well as moving from AVR to separates....I did have some time with the system before adding the Fathom...and realize the incredible difference with this sub.

I fully understand the "sensed" vs. "heard" sentiment :cool:... and feel that adding the second fathom will give me a similar experience in the front soundstage. Guess I will be visiting my dealer in the next couple of days :rolleyes:

Craig,

Thanks very much for the response. Our setup sounds very similar (fathom on left and second will not be co-localized) and I have undergone similar upgrades....moved to Dali Helicon 800s up front as well as moving from AVR to separates....I did have some time with the system before adding the Fathom...and realize the incredible difference with this sub.

I fully understand the "sensed" vs. "heard" sentiment :cool:... and feel that adding the second fathom will give me a similar experience in the front soundstage. Guess I will be visiting my dealer in the next couple of days :rolleyes:
In terms of spending money, you can't go wrong buying another F113.

In terms of the "value" of spending money on a second F113, I truly hope it is as valuable to you as it was to me spending $$$ on my 2nd F112.

:):):)

Craig

I set up my two f113's and played the first couple of chapters of Master and Commander on Blu-ray. All I can say is...duck! What a big difference this upgrade made to my system.

All I did was place the subs in the same locations as the old ones, adjust the levels using processor test tones and a rat shack meter (78 dB). I did not play around with polarity, phase or ARO yet.

Project 7.8 begins in mid-June...

Mark

I set up my two f113's and played the first couple of chapters of Master and Commander on Blu-ray. All I can say is...duck! What a big difference this upgrade made to my system.

All I did was place the subs in the same locations as the old ones, adjust the levels using processor test tones and a rat shack meter (78 dB). I did not play around with polarity, phase or ARO yet.

Project 7.8 begins in mid-June...

Mark

Pics? :)

...although my wife doesn't seem quite as excited :rolleyes:

She'd be just about as excited with your 2nd f113 purchase as you would be with her purchase of a 2nd vase for the living room. :D

Guys,

What does co-locating a sub mean?

They way my room is setup, I cannot locate subs along the front wall unless they are sort of behind the main speakers (the credenza which holds my rear projection TV is fairly wide, giving me about three feet of wall space on the left and about 2 feet on the right.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=111444&stc=1&d=1211890558
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=111445&stc=1&d=1211890558

The mains (Mythos ST's) are about 3.5 - 4 feet away from the rear wall, so there is enough depth to put Fathoms more or less behind them. But sonically, is this acceptable, either for the Fathom having a 9 inch tower a foot in front of it, or for the Mythos themselves because of vibrations/resonance from emanating a foot behind it?

Comments appreciated. I don't have the second 113 yet, but am looking to add one shortly...

I set up my two f113's and played the first couple of chapters of Master and Commander on Blu-ray. All I can say is...duck! What a big difference this upgrade made to my system.

All I did was place the subs in the same locations as the old ones, adjust the levels using processor test tones and a rat shack meter (78 dB). I did not play around with polarity, phase or ARO yet.

Project 7.8 begins in mid-June...

Mark

If that's the case I'm not sure I should get a second one :eek: We watched M&C last nite and duck we did. I was actually going to hold off watching it until the second fathom is in place but couldn't wait based on SQ reviews...this will be at top of list to play once I get both subs set-up... :D

Guys,

What does co-locating a sub mean?
Co-locating means placing two subs together, next to each other or stacked one on top of the other. With co-location, the two bass waves lock together and you realize 6 dB of additional output. When the two subs are placed away from each other, the waves stay independent and you only get 3 dB of additional output. However, you usually get better frequency response coverage throughout the room, with fewer peaks and nulls at any one location.

Craig

Co-locating means placing two subs together, next to each other or stacked one on top of the other. With co-location, the two bass waves lock together and you realize 6 dB of additional output. When the two subs are placed away from each other, the waves stay independent and you only get 3 dB of additional output. However, you usually get better frequency response coverage throughout the room, with fewer peaks and nulls at any one location.

Craig

Understood! :)

Thanks a lot, Craig.

They way my room is setup, I cannot locate subs along the front wall unless they are sort of behind the main speakers (the credenza which holds my rear projection TV is fairly wide, giving me about three feet of wall space on the left and about 2 feet on the right.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=111444&stc=1&d=1211890558
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=111445&stc=1&d=1211890558

The mains (Mythos ST's) are about 3.5 - 4 feet away from the rear wall, so there is enough depth to put Fathoms more or less behind them. But sonically, is this acceptable, either for the Fathom having a 9 inch tower a foot in front of it, or for the Mythos themselves because of vibrations/resonance from emanating a foot behind it?

Comments appreciated. I don't have the second 113 yet, but am looking to add one shortly...
When my single F112 was in the corner, my left main speaker sat in front of it. However, it was a bookshelf speaker on a stand. I don't think it would be any problem sonically to set your speakers in front of the subs. Bass waves are so long that they'll go right around them. Your speakers have built-in woofers and are "rated" to 14 Hz. They should be able to withstand any vibrations generated by the subs.

Try it and see. The worst that can happen is that you don't like it.

BTW, are you using the powered woofers in the Def Tech Mytho's? If so,are you running them as Full Range speakers or do you have them crossed over?

Craig

When my single F112 was in the corner, my left main speaker sat in front of it. However, it was a bookshelf speaker on a stand. I don't think it would be any problem sonically to set your speakers in front of the subs. Bass waves are so long that they'll go right around them. Your speakers have built-in woofers and are "rated" to 14 Hz. They should be able to withstand any vibrations generated by the subs.

Try it and see. The worst that can happen is that you don't like it.

BTW, are you using the powered woofers in the Def Tech Mytho's? If so,are you running them as Full Range speakers or do you have them crossed over?

Craig

Thanks Craig - now to convince myself now is the time to spend more cash on another sub....:)

Might be blasphemous on this thread, but I was also considering the SVS Ultra 13 as a more affordable, albeit larger, alternative...Unless slaving a second Fathom has that much more of a sonic benefit....

thrang,

In my opinion, its better to use identical subs as their performance characteristics are going to be the same.

... But sonically, is this acceptable, either for the Fathom having a 9 inch tower a foot in front of it,...


I just reread what I wrote...reminds me of Stonehenge in Spinal Tap....:eek:

nine inch wide...

here is mine setup: :cool:

http://avforum.no/gallery/files/1/7/0/5/6/avpa1hd.JPG

:D

here is mine setup: :cool:

http://avforum.no/gallery/files/1/7/0/5/6/avpa1hd.JPG

:D

awesome !!!!!!!!!!

are you running those B&W's small ?

Very nice Stenvik:cool:

and mine:
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n86/rmk_01/Front1.jpg
and these:
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n86/rmk_01/IMG_2091.jpg
As someone who has gone from a single Fathom to duals and now quad subs, I have seen a nice improvement with each upgrade. I now have even and very powerful bass across all of my seating positions (as the SO says “ it just sounds right”). Prior to the quads, I was running my system at -5 to -10db off of Ref to get the bass effects I liked (subs level matched with my speakers, Integra 9.8 test tones 75DB @ LP via RS meter). With quad Fathoms, I run the system @ -10 to -15 and have even more tactile bass at a more comfortable overall SPL. I realize this is not a solution for everyone due to the cost and or placement issues but if you can swing it, I highly recommend quad subs (of any manufacture) for HT use. My LFE quest is officially over.:)

awesome !!!!!!!!!!

are you running those B&W's small ?

Only had denon AVP-A1HD for a week currently small now at 80 Hz

oh yeah

Those must be Rockport Miras - niiiiiice!
I'm using the same arrangement for my front pair of F113s - the subs face each other and are about the same distance from the listening position as the main speakers.

.

BTW, are you using the powered woofers in the Def Tech Mytho's? If so,are you running them as Full Range speakers or do you have them crossed over?

Craig

Sorry I didn't answer this earlier - After many configs, the LFE inputs on the ST's are not being used - just speaker wire. The best blend with the subs was to crossover at 70 in the 905

Thanks

Greg

my "like brand new" F113 is up in the FOR SALE section!

thanks!

brad

and mine:
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n86/rmk_01/Front1.jpg




A beautiful setup, RMK.

What are those acoustic panels you've used? Are they to help with the bass?

Thanks!

my "like brand new" F113 is up in the FOR SALE section!

thanks!

brad
But, why? :confused:

A beautiful setup, RMK.

What are those acoustic panels you've used? Are they to help with the bass?

Thanks!

Thank you.:)

The passive bass control is done via the stacked tri-traps (GIK Acoustics) in the front corners of the room and yes, they help tame the bass from the subs. The rest are 242 acoustic absorbers for 1st and 2nd reflection points of the other speakers.

Rob are those Revel Studios? I just heard a pair of them at our local "audiophile" get together. Nice speakers for sure.

Rob are those Revel Studios? I just heard a pair of them at our local "audiophile" get together. Nice speakers for sure.

Yes, they are the older version Studio1's. I am trying to resist the temptation to go to the new Studio2's as Ilike these so much but I am weakening with every positive review.;)

BTW Asher, have you installed the quad F113's?

They way my room is setup, I cannot locate subs along the front wall unless they are sort of behind the main speakers (the credenza which holds my rear projection TV is fairly wide, giving me about three feet of wall space on the left and about 2 feet on the right.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=111444&stc=1&d=1211890558
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=111445&stc=1&d=1211890558

The mains (Mythos ST's) are about 3.5 - 4 feet away from the rear wall, so there is enough depth to put Fathoms more or less behind them. But sonically, is this acceptable, either for the Fathom having a 9 inch tower a foot in front of it, or for the Mythos themselves because of vibrations/resonance from emanating a foot behind it?

Comments appreciated. I don't have the second 113 yet, but am looking to add one shortly...



I don't have two F113, but this location was recommended to me by URM when he did some work in my system last august It sound fantastic with my ST's when I use to owned the Mythos. He suggested to shoot the energy down the long side wall, which is approximately 20 feet. I was a better position than the one I had next to my sofa, which would create tactile affect on the sitting area.:D

I'll look into the some of the notes URM put in my report, later on tonight.

In the mean time you should give it a try.


http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s57/djoeltaveras/Fathom002.jpg


http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s57/djoeltaveras/Distant002.jpg