I don't have two F113, but this location was recommended to me by URM when he did some work in my system last august It sound fantastic with my ST's when I use to owned the Mythos. He suggested to shout the energy down the long side wall, which is approximately 20 feet. I was a better position than the one I had next to my sofa, which would create tactile affect on the sitting area.:D

I'll look into the some of the notes URM put in my report, later on tonight.

In the mean time you should give it a try.


Edit: Can't seem to post pic from work, will once I get home:


[IMG]http://i149.photobucket

What did you swap your st's for?

And yes, I'd like to see the pic referencing the positioning.

Thanks

Yes, they are the older version Studio1's. I am trying to resist the temptation to go to the new Studio2's as Ilike these so much but I am weakening with every positive review.;)

BTW Asher, have you installed the quad F113's?

Between work, teething baby, and flu-stricken wife I haven't had a chance to get the room cleaned up in order to unbox pair 2. I did setup the 2-channel portion and have enjoyed an hour with the setup (without subs). Hopefully this weekend (fingers crossed that nothing else comes up). I had kept my B&W ASW4000 sub in the room thinking I'd use it to fill in my rear speakers. It's too crowded and my ATC 50s actually measure well down to below 30hz in the room so I'll take the B&W out of the room to make space.

Between work, teething baby, and flu-stricken wife I haven't had a chance to get the room cleaned up in order to unbox pair 2. I did setup the 2-channel portion and have enjoyed an hour with the setup (without subs). Hopefully this weekend (fingers crossed that nothing else comes up). I had kept my B&W ASW4000 sub in the room thinking I'd use it to fill in my rear speakers. It's too crowded and my ATC 50s actually measure well down to below 30hz in the room so I'll take the B&W out of the room to make space.


Good man ... family first.

You are going to be amazed at how four F113's sound in your HT.

Very nice Stenvik:cool:

and mine:
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n86/rmk_01/Front1.jpg
and these:
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n86/rmk_01/IMG_2091.jpg
As someone who has gone from a single Fathom to duals and now quad subs, I have seen a nice improvement with each upgrade. I now have even and very powerful bass across all of my seating positions (as the SO says “ it just sounds right”). Prior to the quads, I was running my system at -5 to -10db off of Ref to get the bass effects I liked (subs level matched with my speakers, Integra 9.8 test tones 75DB @ LP via RS meter). With quad Fathoms, I run the system @ -10 to -15 and have even more tactile bass at a more comfortable overall SPL. I realize this is not a solution for everyone due to the cost and or placement issues but if you can swing it, I highly recommend quad subs (of any manufacture) for HT use. My LFE quest is officially over.:)

Rob ... WOW. That is one gorgeous room !!!!

Guys...I really appreciate all the feedback, info, and especially the pics re: multiple fathoms. As I've only heard positive comments...I'm sure I will be picking up a second fathom in the next few days :) Hopefully, I will get a few pictures up once it is in place.

That should take care of the subs for awhile :D (my wife would have a coronary if I suggested four...very sweet rob) and I guess it will be time to continue the search (wait impatiently) for SSP and two-channel pre-amp as I continue the overhaul :confused:

Rob ... WOW. That is one gorgeous room !!!!

Agreed! (Except it needs a projector and a great big screen. :D:D:D )

Agreed! (Except it needs a projector and a great big screen. :D:D:D )

he has a projector and drop down screen :)

Rob ... WOW. That is one gorgeous room !!!!

Thanks Craig, good to hear from the man who started me on my long descent into subwoofer obsession.;)

Thanks Craig, good to hear from the man who started me on my long descent into subwoofer obsession.;)

Since I have retired from testing subwoofers, I am going to start testing other guilty pleasures.... strip clubs.

Try blaming me for THAT ! :D

What did you swap your st's for?

And yes, I'd like to see the pic referencing the positioning.

Thanks


You got pictures:) above.

Dali Helicon 400 original, & C200MK2's I suppose to get them by the end of the week.:rolleyes:


Djoel

Since I have retired from testing subwoofers, I am going to start testing other guilty pleasures.... strip clubs.


Now we know that you wife let a lot of things go when you were buying and testing all of those subs, but this...I'm not so sure!

Now we know that you wife let a lot of things go when you were buying and testing all of those subs, but this...I'm not so sure!

Darn ... I knew there was a problem with this plan. She could see this as a marital issue. Women are funny about this stuff ...

he has a projector and drop down screen :)
Ahhh... yes, now I see the screen at the top of the picture... hadn't noticed it before. Now it's a really cool room! :cool:

Since I have retired from testing subwoofers, I am going to start testing other guilty pleasures.... strip clubs.

Try blaming me for THAT ! :D
I'm not sure I'd want to see the girls that dance at strip clubs in Erie, PA, especially if they're anything like the girls in Central PA. :) They've got a Hooters in York. :eek: I only went in it once, that was enough for me. :p

Craig

Ahhh... yes, now I see the screen at the top of the picture... hadn't noticed it before. Now it's a really cool room! :cool:


I'm not sure I'd want to see the girls that dance at strip clubs in Erie, PA, especially if they're anything like the girls in Central PA. :) They've got a Hooters in York. :eek: I only went in it once, that was enough for me. :p

Craig

We have a winner !! Erie does not even HAVE a strip club. We did have a Hooters for a few years, and it went bankrupt.

To call this a family town is an understatement, which is why we love it.

We have a winner !! Erie does not even HAVE a strip club. We did have a Hooters for a few years, and it went bankrupt.

To call this a family town is an understatement, which is why we love it.
Lancaster doesn't have a strip club either. Imagine Amish girls in g-strings... and *NOT* Kelly McGillis! :eek::eek::eek:

Now back on topic...

Craig

Lancaster doesn't have a strip club either. Image Amish girls in g-strings... and *NOT* Kelly McGillis! :eek::eek::eek:

Now back on topic...

Craig

You mean Fathoms ? Or Gothams ?

You mean Fathoms ? Or Gothams ?
:D:D:D

I may be cheap but I can't fathom 4 f113 Fathom's in a room!! I find the one sufficent. I am curious if there are many solo Fathomer's like me.?

I may be cheap but I can't fathom 4 f113 Fathom's in a room!! I find the one sufficent. I am curious if there are many solo Fathomer's like me.?


I have one over a year now that happens to be enough, but I'm dying for a second....Sorry:D


Djoel

Lancaster doesn't have a strip club either. Imagine Amish girls in g-strings... and *NOT* Kelly McGillis! :eek::eek::eek:

Now back on topic...

Craig


Craig, this a shot in the dark, but I'll ask anyway...Do you happen to know four sisters last name Solano? I spend some time in Lancaster one summer when I was a teen, back i n the mid 80's..




Thanks

djoel

Craig, this a shot in the dark, but I'll ask anyway...Do you happen to know four sisters last name Solano? I spend some time in Lancaster one summer when I was a teen, back i n the mid 80's..

Thanks

djoel
FOUR sisters??? You da man!!! :D Although, if they were local girls, you were obviously going for quantity over quality. :D:D:D

No, I don't know any Solano's. It's not a common name 'round these parts. I looked in the Lancaster phone book and there are none listed. Lot's a Stolzfus's and Denlinger's though. :D

Craig

FOUR sisters??? You da man!!! :D Although, if they were local girls, you were obviously going for quantity over quality. :D:D:D

No, I don't know any Solano's. It's not a common name 'round these parts. I looked in the Lancaster phone book and there are none listed. Lot's a Stolzfus's and Denlinger's though. :D

Craig


No it wasn't like that at all Craig, you kidder...:p

Yeah I did the same thing a few years back, but no dice either! Oh well thanks.

Cheers

Djoel

I was getting fired up - I thought they were strippers.

I was getting fired up - I thought they were strippers.



Well they might be by now....There father was, or still is a preacher!;)

I swear...


DJoel

Well they might be by now....There father was, or still is a preacher!;)

I swear...


DJoel

Ok ... Hooters girls then. :D

Isn't this supposed to be about subwoofers ?

An Amish joke:

Two Amish girls, Sarah and Katie are out in the field, pickin' potatoes. Sarah looks over at Katie who is staring off into space while reflexively clutching a potatoe in each hand.

Sarah says: "Katie, are you OK?"

Katie says: "Yeah, it's jaust dat dees potatoes remind me a Jakey."

Sarah says: "Why 'acause dey're s' big?

Katie says: Naaa, 'acause dey're s' durty.

(If you don't speak Pennsylvania Dutch, you may not get it. You hafta live live here.) :D

Craig

K! This is where I get off guys...Goodnite.


Djoel

A couple of picures of our dual F113 setup :-)

Roadtrip to heja's home. :)

Very nice setup.

beautiful setup heja ... but isnt the tweeter of the center channel in the way? (at least for the front row)

Excellent setup Heja!

What are you using for rears and sides to equal the awesome front stage you got?

Sweet setup heja, I love the diamond series from B&W.

Wow those F113 look so tiny next to those B&W's, that's what I love about them!

Very sweet setup..

Djoel

Roadtrip to heja's home. :)

Very nice setup.



By the looks of his website, we might have to pay euros for those plane tickets:eek: Or what ever currency they have up in Switzerland, Finland, Norway ?

Djoel

beautiful setup heja ... but isnt the tweeter of the center channel in the way? (at least for the front row)

Thaks for the comments. It is the camera perspective. The tweeter is millimeters below the screen surface sitting on the first row :-)

And yes the senter is "my precious"....

By the looks of his website, we might have to pay euros for those plane tickets:eek: Or what ever currency they have up in Switzerland, Finland, Norway ?

Djoel

We use Norwegian Kroner :-)

Excellent setup Heja!

What are you using for rears and sides to equal the awesome front stage you got?

Not quite the same league unfortunately (But they work OK): 4 X B&W DS6 S3

Dream setup, but then in a new larger room, 2X B&W 801D as front left and right, the HTMID as center and 4X 802D for surround speakers, And why not 6 or 8 F113s to fill inn in on the low notes...

But the wife is not there yet, even if it was actually she that went to the local shops and bought the current setup and enjoy the room just as much as me.

No I'm not planning on changing wife :-D

Not quite the same league unfortunately (But they work OK): 4 X B&W DS6 S3

Dream setup, but then in a new larger room, 2X B&W 801D as front left and right, the HTMID as center and 4X 802D for surround speakers, And why not 6 or 8 F113s to fill inn in on the low notes...

But the wife is not there yet, even if it was actually she that went to the local shops and bought the current setup and enjoy the room just as much as me.

No I'm not planning on changing wife :-D

Very nice Heja, I think 6 to 8 F113's would be just about right.;)

Also, we have a saying here in the US ... "It's cheaper to keep her" and you can take my word on this, it is. :eek:

Very nice Heja, I think 6 to 8 F113's would be just about right.;)

Also, we have a saying here in the US ... "It's cheaper to keep her" and you can take my word on this, it is. :eek:


If you've been married more than 10 years it's "cheaper to keep her" othwerwise get out now! Eventually you do recoup your money, unless she's a"housewife" that has stayed at home with the kids,(that's a receipe for disaster due to boredom and all of the alimony that you will be forced to pay) I have a much better handle on finances now than when I was married. Saving for additional Fathoms to buy and don't have to listen to the jealousy that prevails when men are making themselves happy by buying equipment!.:D

Ouch...just think of how many F113s you could have gotten with the alimony money!

I say just don't get married!

Or if you need to take the plunge there should be a 6 month course explaining the joys of marriage bliss, incase any thing goes wrong! Yeah what are the chance of that happening.. Let's not forget it's a contract your signing attached to a party.:rolleyes:

Oh another thing I'm pretty sure the person who made up that saying cheaper to keep her, was a woman..Along with soul mates!


Djoel

Hehehh I'm sorry, I don't DO marriage...

I say just don't get married!

Or if you need to take the plunge there should be a 6 month course explaining the joys of marriage bliss, incase any thing goes wrong! Yeah what are the chance of that happening.. Let's not forget it's a contract your signing attached to a party.:rolleyes:

Oh another thing I'm pretty sure the person who made up that saying cheaper to keep her, was a woman..Along with soul mates!


Djoel

Stick with the "Four Sisters" plan. That's a much better route to go! :D:D:D

Craig

Ouch...just think of how many F113s you could have gotten with the alimony money!


Oh not me! I escaped that trap by about 6 months from being 10 years married. No alimony here. My ex, (who asked for the divorce) actually took me back to court after I became happy again with a new girlfriend and the HT system about 5 years ago and the court sided with me and ordered a reduction (almost half) of child support payments. Wow, now I can buy more HT equipment. I'll never get married again,why should I? :cool:

P.S.
As stated before in another thread the ex hated anything I did with HT. My girlfriend on the other hand loves the system and watching movies at home. She knows it brings me a little joy sometimes and it's no big deal. Pick them right the first time!:D

I'll never get married again,why should I? :cool:

P.S.
As stated before in another thread the ex hated anything I did with HT. My girlfriend on the other hand loves the system and watching movies at home. She knows it brings me a little joy sometimes and it's no big deal. Pick them right the first time!:D


Here's Socrates' take on marriage:

By all means marry; if you get a good wife, you'll become happy; if you get a bad one, you'll become a philosopher.

By the way, we've come very far from the Fathom... :D

Not too far. Buying a Fathom is a lot like marriage. You plan on spending money to acquire it. You like it's size and physical appearance. It puts out when appropriate (heh heh). If you decide to part it's going to cost some money. At least it will never nag you.

All this talk of marriage and divorce, but you haven't thought of the most horrendous possible outcome. What if SHE gets the HT in the settlement?:( Maybe it is best to not marry or just stay married. Better to annoy her than to piss her off.:)

All this talk of marriage and divorce, but you haven't thought of the most horrendous possible outcome. What if SHE gets the HT in the settlement?:( Maybe it is best to not marry or just stay married. Better to annoy her than to piss her off.:)




Do what my audiophile buddy did. He sold all of his equipment to his friends complete with receipts before the paperwork was ever filed in court by her. After the dust settled he bought it back from them. :D

The good thing about the Fathom comparatively speaking is it only gets better with multiple subs.

Do what my audiophile buddy did. He sold all of his equipment to his friends complete with receipts before the paperwork was ever filed in court by her. After the dust settled he bought it back from them. :D

The good thing about the Fathom comparatively speaking is it only gets better with multiple subs.
:D

Smart chap!

A couple of picures of our dual F113 setup :-)

Jesus ! That is what I call beatiful.. :eek: Very nice..

Jesus ! That is what I call beatiful.. :eek: Very nice..

Don't forget that he has a wife that supported him on buying this eq... she that ordered those speakers. :D

Wonder where I can find those females that enjoys highend eq :D

Don't forget that he has a wife that supported him on buying this eq... she that ordered those speakers. :D

Wonder where I can find those females that enjoys highend eq :D

She is a gem, like the twins :-)

A couple of picures of our dual F113 setup :-)

Killer ...killer ! These B&W mains and the center...abslute delights,both sonic and built quality.A perfect match for JL Audio subs. :D

Congratulations on a class setup.

This is the exact center I am looking for for my next speaker upgrade,and with D801's should be an absolute ...dream.

Setups like these make it all worth the time and expense,...the sound...ah beauty.

The little wife was kind enough to help me unbox the subs. Funny thing is that it became very quiet during the process. Perhaps I have the upgraded version of the woofers with the undocumented "anti-yapping" feature. Good job guys! :cool:

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk97/The_Bogg/basement325.jpg

Note: no wives were actually hurt during the installation of this product. :p

Say hello to the newest members of my "family". Their names are number 3 and 4:


http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk97/The_Bogg/basement326.jpg

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk97/The_Bogg/basement327.jpg

As soon as the housekeeper has finished vacuuming I'm gonna fire them up!

Congrats!!! Bogg nice, I guess two is no longer the standard any more now people are going with FOUR!!!! Guess I'll have to save my pennnies and get another two or maybe I'll just get me F212 to go with my two F113's.

very nice Bogg

are you going to adjust the level in the near-field subs lower than the subs in the front of the room ?

Say hello to the newest members of my "family". There names are number 3 and 4:


http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk97/The_Bogg/basement326.jpg

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk97/The_Bogg/basement327.jpg

As soon as the housekeeper has finished vacuuming I'm gonna fire them up!

VERY nice Asher... to bad about the wife as she looked like a hard worker (at least the parts I could see).

Oh sorry:o, I just read your "no wives were hurt" disclaimer and I'm very happy that the little woman will live to install another sub.:)

Now was I right or was I right? Quad Fathoms are unbelievable.

very nice Bogg

are you going to adjust the level in the near-field subs lower than the subs in the front of the room ?

I've tried to put them all at the 1/4 wavelength cancellation point of the room (as per my room designer's recommendation). I'm off a little bit in the rear but it's close. Therefore, I'll adjust them all the same since they are not physically all that much closer to the main listening position. I'll experiment too if it seems worthwhile.

VERY nice Asher... to bad about the wife as she looked like a hard worker (at least the parts I could see).

Oh sorry:o, I just read your "no wives were hurt" disclaimer and I'm very happy that the little woman will live to install another sub.:)

Now was I right or was I right? Quad Fathoms are unbelievable.

I just managed to listen to WOTW before my baby girl went to sleep. I cut the bass feed by 10db as per the rat shack spl meter. Played it at -5db from reference and it was niiiiiiice. I'm going to need to tweak it a bit but I figure I'll put back a db or 2 and that should do it.

Interesting discovery while playing with the subs. I played the test tone bass cascade from 78hz down to 18hz in 3hz increments. With just 1 sub there were large cancellations at the opposite end and side of the room. With 2 subs it was less dramatic, but there were still nulls if you walked around the room. With 3 even less, and with 4 subs, as expected, there were way fewer areas of significant deviation - this is for the 7 chairs. This is great news for the times I'll have a handful of people here. Otherwise, the main listening chair is pretty well optimized for 1 or more subs, as per the directions I had given Chris Huston of Rives Audio.

Bottom line - more woofers equals smoother output and tons of headroom. The sense of effortlessness was really noticeable even compared to 2 of them but I emphasize that I hadn't optimized the 2 before moving on to the 4. I really think that in most cases 2 would be more than adequate in a dedicated room (which doesn't lose all the bass like an open concept room - like I used to have).

More later as soon as I can get at them! :)

I just managed to listen to WOTW before my baby girl went to sleep. I cut the bass feed by 10db as per the rat shack spl meter. Played it at -5db from reference and it was niiiiiiice. I'm going to need to tweak it a bit but I figure I'll put back a db or 2 and that should do it.

Interesting discovery while playing with the subs. I played the test tone bass cascade from 78hz down to 18hz in 3hz increments. With just 1 sub there were large cancellations at the opposite end and side of the room. With 2 subs it was less dramatic, but there were still nulls if you walked around the room. With 3 even less, and with 4 subs, as expected, there were way fewer areas of significant deviation - this is for the 7 chairs. This is great news for the times I'll have a handful of people here. Otherwise, the main listening chair is pretty well optimized for 1 or more subs, as per the directions I had given Chris Huston of Rives Audio.

Bottom line - more woofers equals smoother output and tons of headroom. The sense of effortlessness was really noticeable even compared to 2 of them but I emphasize that I hadn't optimized the 2 before moving on to the 4. I really think that in most cases 2 would be more than adequate in a dedicated room (which doesn't lose all the bass like an open concept room - like I used to have).

More later as soon as I can get at them! :)

I agree on all points including not having enough time to really dial the subs in. Since I have three EQ’ing systems (ARO, SMS-1 and Audyssey) it gets a little complicated. Just for fun, I would like to start with no EQ and then carefully work my way through all of them using the SMS-1’s FR sweeps for visual feedback. Getting a free day to just play in the HT is the problem.

In the meantime, it’s all good and I have to agree with the Harmon multi sub study and believe that there is something special about four subs (not just Fathoms) in an HT environment.

I heartily recommend that approach Rob. As I added more subs, I've gradually removed equalization. In my HT with the quad subs roughly midwall most seats are linear so the SMS, BFD, ARO, Audessey are all now unused. It took more time and muscle to slowly tweak the sub placement and phase but the reward was avoiding any time domain artifacts and ringing from the equalizers.

Great looking setup and room Asher. :)

I heartily recommend that approach Rob. As I added more subs, I've gradually removed equalization. In my HT with the quad subs roughly midwall most seats are linear so the SMS, BFD, ARO, Audessey are all now unused. It took more time and muscle to slowly tweak the sub placement and phase but the reward was avoiding any time domain artifacts and ringing from the equalizers.

Great looking setup and room Asher. :)

I remember when you first went to your quad sub configuration I was a bit skeptical ;). Now that I have experienced it first hand, I am a convert.
Here is a quote from a 2004 Secrets of Home Theater Interview with Harman SG’s Kevin Voecks by Sumit Chawla
We’ve got some great results using multiple subwoofers in order to solve problems of dips in response that you can’t solve with any single subwoofer location, and also getting consistency of response throughout the listening area.

Sumit: This leads into my next question on the use of multiple subwoofers. Do you recommend that?

Kevin: Absolutely. We’ve done really quite definitive research on that, and we found the optimum number of subwoofers is four, and you get a huge improvement in most rooms going from one to two subwoofers.

Sumit: I’m assuming that the work you are referring to is the white paper on the Harman website by Todd Welti.

Kevin: Yes. And there is a much more complete version of that that was an AES paper. We were fortunate enough to be involved in that research, and I can say that it’s not just theoretical. That’s the way it works in the real world.


Here is a link to the full interview. It is an excellent read.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_2/feature-interview-kevin-voecks-4-2004.html

A few pages back I asked for input on moving from one to two Fathoms. The overwhelming response was positive (in fact no negative comments). Well, this weekend I picked up a second and finally integrated into my system this afternoon :)

Overall, the move from my old sub to a single Fathom 113 was WOW :D $$$ very well spent. The move from one to a second was more VERY NICE :p $$$ well spent. The front soundstage has evened out, whereas before the addition the base was more directional. Can't wait to spend some more time with the system this weekend (hope I'm not repairing the foundation).

I am interested in buying a fathom subwoofer. I cannot find any online dealers nor any outlets selling them. Where are you guys buying these, and is there any place I can get any discount ?. I am in georgia.

I am interested in buying a fathom subwoofer. I cannot find any online dealers nor any outlets selling them. Where are you guys buying these, and is there any place I can get any discount ?. I am in georgia.

K.G.

You can find a dealer in your area using the dealer finder on the JL Audio website. We don't have any authorized online retailers.

http://home.jlaudio.com/dealerfind.php

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

just reduced my F113 to $2000 in the sales forum!

pickup only in the Chicago area

brad

whitmorebrad@hotmail.com

just reduced my F113 to $2000 in the sales forum!

pickup only in the Chicago area

brad

whitmorebrad@hotmail.com

If I had the funds, I would love to pick this up... Just north of milwaukee, would make for a nice jaunt... Why ya sellin 'er brad...?

A few pages back I asked for input on moving from one to two Fathoms. The overwhelming response was positive (in fact no negative comments). Well, this weekend I picked up a second and finally integrated into my system this afternoon :)

Overall, the move from my old sub to a single Fathom 113 was WOW :D $$$ very well spent. The move from one to a second was more VERY NICE :p $$$ well spent. The front soundstage has evened out, whereas before the addition the base was more directional. Can't wait to spend some more time with the system this weekend (hope I'm not repairing the foundation).

Congrats twodown. It will only get better.:cool:

Yeah, Brad, why are you selling your sub?

A couple of more pictures of the twins :-)

Very nice! What's the dimensions of the room anyway? Looks great!!

A couple of more pictures of the twins :-)

That is a ridiculously beautiful looking setup you have there my friend...

Congrats, its my dream to have a setup like that some day, but I doubt it will happen anytime soon... Just don't have the space for something like that in my beautiful home...

A couple of more pictures of the twins :-)

Those are excellent pics and speakers you got, probably one of the best showcasing the F113's!

I have the black ash color myself on my 800series and they are beautiful in that color and your pics show that very well.

Hey All:

Here is a serious question and I would appreciate any serious answers. I'm writing in this thread because I am considering purchasing a JL Audio fathom and have read all 136 pages, plus the question is related to an aspect of the fathoms. In addition, I will probably be posting questions on the fathom here and based upon reading the pages in this thread there seems to be some pretty knowledgeable folks here.

I'm sure everyone would agree that we have invested some serious $$$ into our hobby, and in my case, I view my purchases as investments. My profile is that I am more of a long-term hold guy. I enjoy spending time upfront researching and considering a purchase before completing the acquisition. But, then generally, I keep the equipment for years. In the case of speakers my hold period is probably between 5 to 10 years. And, after a long layoff, I am in the process of creating a moderate home theater system.

OK. Grilles ON; Grilles OFF. I have been running my speakers with the grilles off and note on the fathoms the screen must be removed in order to power on/power off. And Mr. Manville does not recommend the use of power strips for this prupose. So the power on/power off switch should be use and so the grille should either stay off or a person has to remove/replace the grille for this function.

So I'm wondering how dust impacts the SQ of high quality audio drivers. I notice when I clean my house every week, a layer of dust on the furniture and equipment. If I leave the grilles off I assume that this weekly layer of dust would accumulate on the drivers. So, I could either ignore this or find a way to remove the dust--soft cloth, feather duster, etc.

This seems like it may be a potential issues when viewed in terms of a long-term hold. Say, I do nothing. Over a 5 to 10 year hold period this is 5 to 10 years of dust accumulating on the drivers. When viewed this way, is this an issue in terms of SQ? Would this type of dust build-up impact the drivers?

Or, If a person dusted the drivers every week this would by about 250 to 500 times that a cleaning or dusting object is contacting the outer portion of the drivers and wondering if this long-term, regular contact would start to damage this delicate, sophisticated equipment.

Thanks.
Ese

ok guys

i'm taking one more run at calibrating my F113 before i sell it for sure

i would prefer two subs in my HT (for many reasons) but had hoped that one F113 would more than do the job

i think i have it setup wrong? although it provides deep, articulate bass i just dont get that Wow! factor i was hoping for...maybe its my ears, but it doesnt give me that "punch in the gut" i had hoped for (and i'm not trying to start a fight :))

i re-ran ARO and need to do some more tweaking but had some basic (read: dumb) questions...

1) after calibration, i am free to adjust the MASTER LEVEL control as i see fit, right? i had originally thought i was supposed to leave it where the ARO set it?

2) if i want more output, should i keep the MASTER LEVEL at the "0" position and adjust from my receiver?

3) to give me a little more deep bass WOOF should i raise the "ELF trim" level to +1 or +2?

** I realize that my room setup and acoustics are everything in determining my best setup...hopefully you guys can still offer some advice

help!...

thanks!

brad

I use the Auto Power function for my Fathoms and it works great. Delay at signal sensing is minimal.

Re cleaning the drivers, I run grilles on. I have used a soft cloth and wiped down the drivers but if you don't want to touch them, get an air can and use that.:)


Hey All:

Here is a serious question and I would appreciate any serious answers. I'm writing in this thread because I am considering purchasing a JL Audio fathom and have read all 136 pages, plus the question is related to an aspect of the fathoms. In addition, I will probably be posting questions on the fathom here and based upon reading the pages in this thread there seems to be some pretty knowledgeable folks here.

I'm sure everyone would agree that we have invested some serious $$$ into our hobby, and in my case, I view my purchases as investments. My profile is that I am more of a long-term hold guy. I enjoy spending time upfront researching and considering a purchase before completing the acquisition. But, then generally, I keep the equipment for years. In the case of speakers my hold period is probably between 5 to 10 years. And, after a long layoff, I am in the process of creating a moderate home theater system.

OK. Grilles ON; Grilles OFF. I have been running my speakers with the grilles off and note on the fathoms the screen must be removed in order to power on/power off. And Mr. Manville does not recommend the use of power strips for this prupose. So the power on/power off switch should be use and so the grille should either stay off or a person has to remove/replace the grille for this function.

So I'm wondering how dust impacts the SQ of high quality audio drivers. I notice when I clean my house every week, a layer of dust on the furniture and equipment. If I leave the grilles off I assume that this weekly layer of dust would accumulate on the drivers. So, I could either ignore this or find a way to remove the dust--soft cloth, feather duster, etc.

This seems like it may be a potential issues when viewed in terms of a long-term hold. Say, I do nothing. Over a 5 to 10 year hold period this is 5 to 10 years of dust accumulating on the drivers. When viewed this way, is this an issue in terms of SQ? Would this type of dust build-up impact the drivers?

Or, If a person dusted the drivers every week this would by about 250 to 500 times that a cleaning or dusting object is contacting the outer portion of the drivers and wondering if this long-term, regular contact would start to damage this delicate, sophisticated equipment.

Thanks.
Ese

A couple of picures of our dual F113 setup :-)


Looks nice. Thinking of getting 2 more?

Yes, atleast 2 more :-) Just need a new bigger room...

Just got my first JL F113 a few days ago. What an incredible sub it is. It replaced a Velodyne DD12 which in it's own rights is a great sub. I am so happy I made the switch. Impact, tightness, integration, it is all better with the JL. Can't wait till I get my ARC for my D2 and have my family room complete.

Just got my first JL F113 a few days ago. What an incredible sub it is. It replaced a Velodyne DD12 which in it's own rights is a great sub. I am so happy I made the switch. Impact, tightness, integration, it is all better with the JL. Can't wait till I get my ARC for my D2 and have my family room complete.

Congrats on the sub. I'm about to pull the trigger on the ARC for the D2 also. It's a good combo.

Yes, atleast 2 more :-) Just need a new bigger room...

How big is your room? Mine is 17w x 24d x 7'10" high and four of the F113s are a great match to the room.

Hey All:

So I'm wondering how dust impacts the SQ of high quality audio drivers. I notice when I clean my house every week, a layer of dust on the furniture and equipment. If I leave the grilles off I assume that this weekly layer of dust would accumulate on the drivers. So, I could either ignore this or find a way to remove the dust--soft cloth, feather duster, etc.

This seems like it may be a potential issues when viewed in terms of a long-term hold. Say, I do nothing. Over a 5 to 10 year hold period this is 5 to 10 years of dust accumulating on the drivers. When viewed this way, is this an issue in terms of SQ? Would this type of dust build-up impact the drivers?

Or, If a person dusted the drivers every week this would by about 250 to 500 times that a cleaning or dusting object is contacting the outer portion of the drivers and wondering if this long-term, regular contact would start to damage this delicate, sophisticated equipment.


How about just play some bass heavy music and turn it up a little. That should shake the dust off.:eek:

Oh wait, you said serious...
Don't really know the effect, but think it would be minimal. Think about all the excursions that outer portion goes through listening to music or watching a movie. It probably accumulates over a million cycles in a year.

-Steve

Very nice! What's the dimensions of the room anyway? Looks great!!

The room is in meters: 3,25 winde, 5,9 long and 2,35 high.

Screen is 230 wide. First row eye/ear distance is approx 2,8 meters.

Next rom will be at least 1,5 meters wider and longer and atleast 0.5 meters higher....

ok guys

i'm taking one more run at calibrating my F113 before i sell it for sure
Good for you. I hope you get it figured out.

i would prefer two subs in my HT (for many reasons) but had hoped that one F113 would more than do the job

i think i have it setup wrong? although it provides deep, articulate bass i just dont get that Wow! factor i was hoping for...maybe its my ears, but it doesnt give me that "punch in the gut" i had hoped for (and i'm not trying to start a fight :))
Have you measured your frequency response?

i re-ran ARO and need to do some more tweaking but had some basic (read: dumb) questions...

1) after calibration, i am free to adjust the MASTER LEVEL control as i see fit, right? i had originally thought i was supposed to leave it where the ARO set it?
Yes, but you should calibrate it correctly and see how it sounds. Then adjust from there. The ARO is a single band equalizer, not a calibration device. Calibration requires measuring sound pressure levels at all frequencies the sub puts out and setting the average level equal to the average level of the speakers.

2) if i want more output, should i keep the MASTER LEVEL at the "0" position and adjust from my receiver?
Yes, you can do that, but calibrate it first, then season to taste.

3) to give me a little more deep bass WOOF should i raise the "ELF trim" level to +1 or +2?
That's what it's there for... try it and see.

** I realize that my room setup and acoustics are everything in determining my best setup...hopefully you guys can still offer some advice
The best advice we can give you is to acoustically treat your room with bass traps, then run ARO. Multiple subs will help also.

Craig

Don't forget to move the sub around in the room and use the crawl test. When I first set up my F113 the LP was in a null.

Congrats on the sub. I'm about to pull the trigger on the ARC for the D2 also. It's a good combo.

I just ordered my ARC for my D2 a couple of days ago. Im wondering how it will work with the JL ARO. Wondering if I should just disable/defeat the ARO and let the ARC do it's thing or run them both at the same time.

ok guys

i'm taking one more run at calibrating my F113 before i sell it for sure

i would prefer two subs in my HT (for many reasons) but had hoped that one F113 would more than do the job

i think i have it setup wrong? although it provides deep, articulate bass i just dont get that Wow! factor i was hoping for...maybe its my ears, but it doesnt give me that "punch in the gut" i had hoped for (and i'm not trying to start a fight :))

i re-ran ARO and need to do some more tweaking but had some basic (read: dumb) questions...

1) after calibration, i am free to adjust the MASTER LEVEL control as i see fit, right? i had originally thought i was supposed to leave it where the ARO set it?

2) if i want more output, should i keep the MASTER LEVEL at the "0" position and adjust from my receiver?

3) to give me a little more deep bass WOOF should i raise the "ELF trim" level to +1 or +2?

** I realize that my room setup and acoustics are everything in determining my best setup...hopefully you guys can still offer some advice

help!...

thanks!

brad


Did you post your room info here.... ? What size is your room....?

If you have a problematic room, buying a different sub may not be the answer here... Possibly a good EQ could help your situation, aside from Room Treatments... If your looking for a good set it and forget it type scenario, maybe you should look at something like a Velodyne SMS-1 Sub EQ.... They can let you see your in room response as well as let you taylor it to your rooms response to a certain degree.
Might be worth checkin out...

Did you post your room info here.... ? What size is your room....?

If you have a problematic room, buying a different sub may not be the answer here... Possibly a good EQ could help your situation, aside from Room Treatments... If your looking for a good set it and forget it type scenario, maybe you should look at something like a Velodyne SMS-1 Sub EQ.... They can let you see your in room response as well as let you taylor it to your rooms response to a certain degree.
Might be worth checkin out...

Agreed... A null will rob a subwoofer of its potential.

To the OP, you may want to plot out a in-room frequency response curve to help us determine if it is a room issue versus a subwoofer issue.

Bwhitmore,
It seems you are happy with the sound of the F113 but want more impact bass. As has been mentioned, understanding the FR of LFE region in your room at the primary LP is a good start. Size and dimensions of the space, is it enclosed or open to other areas?, have you or would you use acoustic treatments?, are things that need to be taken into consideration. One sub makes it difficult to get that “punch in the gut” from LFE that you describe without very careful placement and or over emphasizing LFE. I hate to seem like a broken record but this Harman White Paper (http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf) on Subwoofers: Optimum Number and Locations was a great help to me.

Agreed... A null will rob a subwoofer of its potential.
If you were agreeing that a sub EQ can help with room response problems, I also agree. However, to be clear, an EQ won't do *anything* for a true null. A true null is a cancellation of the sound pressure when two waves of the same frequency collide out-of-phase. The negative wave cancels the positive wave and what's left is null energy. Boosting the positive wave also boosts the canceling negative wave and it simply increases the cancellation. Adding boost at a null frequency strains the amp and the driver with no appreciable benefit, and it is definitely not recommended.

To the OP, you may want to plot out a in-room frequency response curve to help us determine if it is a room issue versus a subwoofer issue.
A cheap and easy way to do this is with the individual frequency tones on the free Realtraps Test CD.
http://www.realtraps.com/test-cd.htm
Download the tones to a file, burn it to a CD and play it back on your system. Use an SPL meter to record the SPL's at each frequency. Log them in an Excel spreadsheet and draw a graph. This will show you your in-room frequency response at the mic position.

If it varies by more than +/- 6 dB, you could benefit from acoustic treatments and some gentle EQ.

Craig

I use the Auto Power function for my Fathoms and it works great. Delay at signal sensing is minimal.

Re cleaning the drivers, I run grilles on. I have used a soft cloth and wiped down the drivers but if you don't want to touch them, get an air can and use that.:)

Thanks RMK! I hadn't thought of the air can. And like I said, maybe over a long-term hold dust isn't an issue but it was sometimes I was thinking of because at times I run with grilles off.

So, thanks again!

How about just play some bass heavy music and turn it up a little. That should shake the dust off.:eek:

Oh wait, you said serious...
Don't really know the effect, but think it would be minimal. Think about all the excursions that outer portion goes through listening to music or watching a movie. It probably accumulates over a million cycles in a year.

-Steve

Steve:

Thanks. I reread that joke a couple times. Put's a smile on my face each time. And thanks for the serious input as well.

I wouldn't disagree if the question seemed anal. But then again, I am probably anal at times anyway. Just yesterday, a dealer reneged on an agreement to let me take some floorstanding speakers home on loan. He reneged because when he found out I was considering purchasing the same floorstanders I have for mains but using the second pair for surrounds. In so many words he said I was an idiot to be considering spending that kinda money on surrounds. My opinion was that it's my $$ and am not trying to please him, I'm trying to please myself and create a system that I will enjoy for years.

Steve:

Thanks. I reread that joke a couple times. Put's a smile on my face each time. And thanks for the serious input as well.

I wouldn't disagree if the question seemed anal. But then again, I am probably anal at times anyway. Just yesterday, a dealer reneged on an agreement to let me take some floorstanding speakers home on loan. He reneged because when he found out I was considering purchasing the same floorstanders I have for mains but using the second pair for surrounds. In so many words he said I was an idiot to be considering spending that kinda money on surrounds. My opinion was that it's my $$ and am not trying to please him, I'm trying to please myself and create a system that I will enjoy for years.
:)
Opinions run strong in Audio and there are none more obnoxious than those who know what’s best for others. If there was ever a “to each his own” hobby, this is it. Good luck and enjoy!

If it varies by more than +/- 6 dB, you could benefit from acoustic treatments and some gentle EQ.

Craig

Craig,

What's the best acoustic treatment to arrest sub issues? Are there any links for an absolute beginner to read? What product should I buy?

Thanks in advance.

Craig,

What's the best acoustic treatment to arrest sub issues? Are there any links for an absolute beginner to read? What product should I buy?

Thanks in advance.
www.gikacoustics.com
www.realtraps.com
www.readytraps.com

I used http://www.sensiblesoundsolutions.com/ to buy my traps. They sell acoustical cotton made from re-cycled bluejeans. It's easier to work with than fiberglass and the acoustic properties are very similar. My traps are hidden behind some beautiful, burgundy velvet drapes that my wife made. They not only cover the traps, they darken the front of the room. Visually, when the lights are out and the projector is on, the front of my room is a black hole with the image hanging in space. They also look great when the lights are on.

In addition, I have traps in my ceiling. The ceiling itself is 1" acoustical tiles. Between the joists above the tiles, I installed pink fluffy fiberglass for thermal insulation, (and some acoustic absorption), and in the corners and across the front of the room, I added 4" of fiberglass.

I installed some homemade 2" fiberglass panels at the first reflection points on the side walls to make the front of the room a "reflection free zone", (see the RealTraps website for a description of a RFZ).

After the speakers, room acoustics are the second most important "component" that affects how your system sounds.

Craig

I just ordered my ARC for my D2 a couple of days ago. Im wondering how it will work with the JL ARO. Wondering if I should just disable/defeat the ARO and let the ARC do it's thing or run them both at the same time.

The Anthem techs told me to let the ARO do its thing, then there is just one less peak the ARC will have to correct.

My ARC has really smoothed out my in-room response.

Ah, good to know. I'm just in the process of "mapping" out the room peaks and nulls (it's booooooring). Trying to find the right spot for the main speakers, and then I'll find the best spot for the subs (within the constraints I have). Then I'll probably get the ARC.

The Anthem techs told me to let the ARO do its thing, then there is just one less peak the ARC will have to correct.

My ARC has really smoothed out my in-room response.
The problem I have with this option is that ARO measure in 1 location and optimize for 1 location while Anthem's ARC measure in 5 locations and try to correct the global room resonance.

So in my case ARO ended up adding more stuff to the other 4 locations that ARC could not recover.

But every room is different so you would have to try it out.

:)
Opinions run strong in Audio and there are none more obnoxious than those who know what’s best for others. If there was ever a “to each his own” hobby, this is it. Good luck and enjoy!

Thanks again RMK!

Hi all, hope you don't mind me posting this here even though it doesn't pertain specifically to the f113...really appreciate any feedback nonetheless.

I am going through a sort of "downsizing" relating to my subwoofer. Currently have an SVS PB13-Ultra, but due to future circumstances that may have me moving to a smaller apartment, hauling this 155lb beast around won't be good for my back or future neighbors. So, I am looking for a smaller sub in the $2000 range.

My dealer offers Revel as well as JL subs, and I am down to the Fathom f110 or the Revel B15a. The B15a is available around my range because it is a demo sub that has been lightly used in a demo room at my dealer. So, I'm looking for some input. I know this is a Fathom thread, but a search for the B15 shows some people in this thread (TheEAR?) who have owned/listened to the B15, so I'd like some thoughts on this. Here's some info on my current setup:

- Speakers: Revel F12/M12
- Current room is ~3200cu.ft. open to a kitchen and hallway.
- No restrictions on finish (would be satin f110 or black ash B15), no real size restrictions either, just smaller than the PB13!
- 50/50 music/HT
- If it does inevitably go down to the f110, I can wait for it if it's not shipping already, no urgency.

My questions:
1) Will the f110 have problems with this large of a room for now? I like to watch HT at "spirited" playback levels on occasion (as an example, standard def DVD at -15 on my Integra 7.8 so maybe 100-110dB peaks). I would think the B15 would do better in this regard than the f110.
2) I know this may be biased due to the Fathom thread, but do any of you with B15 experience think the sound quality would come close to a Fathom? I have a friend with an f112/Performa F32 setup, and I think it sounds awesome- getting close to that would be great!

Thanks for your thoughts on this, I really appreciate the help. Didn't really want to start a brand new thread on this...I am really down to just the B15 or the JL since I would like to stick with my dealer, so if we could focus on these two subs I would appreciate it. Right now I am leaning towards the B15, but would like some feedback nonetheless

Thanks everyone,

Tyler

I don't think I understand you here... Your choosing between a 15" and a 10" sub...

Sorry I don't have a F113, just a F112.... but not sure if your talking about footprint here. The F113 is a bit smaller then the B15

The Revel B-15 Dimensions: 20.2" x 20.1" x 19.6"
The F113 is 19.625 in. x 16.50 in. x 19.25 in.

Well, I know there is a size disparity, but that's not what is most important. I'm just looking for a general comparison...in this case, the only thing I think a 15" would absolutely dominate the 10" JL on would maybe be SPL, but even I'm not sure of that.

JL has one band automatic ARO, the Revel 3 band parametric EQ that you do yourself with some assistance...Revel has slightly larger amp...how do they compare in terms of sound quality? The B15 is an older sub than the f110, so is there a significant difference?

I know they are two different subs in terms of size, but I'm really looking for anything that might distinguish them from one another- sound quality? dynamic capability?- and how that will relate to the room I have...

let me know if I can clarify any further, just looking for a little insight on the f110 and/or B15.

Tyler

Well, I know there is a size disparity, but that's not what is most important. I'm just looking for a general comparison...in this case, the only thing I think a 15" would absolutely dominate the 10" JL on would maybe be SPL, but even I'm not sure of that.

JL has one band automatic ARO, the Revel 3 band parametric EQ that you do yourself with some assistance...Revel has slightly larger amp...how do they compare in terms of sound quality? The B15 is an older sub than the f110, so is there a significant difference?

I know they are two different subs in terms of size, but I'm really looking for anything that might distinguish them from one another- sound quality? dynamic capability?- and how that will relate to the room I have...

let me know if I can clarify any further, just looking for a little insight on the f110 and/or B15.

Tyler

Hey Tyler, I'm no expert here, but I would suggest that you would do extremely well with F113 in that size room... More then adequate... 2 is always better, but you didn't mention a budget. Although it may not hit quite as low as what the Ultra13 is capable, the F113 is a very smooth and clean sub... Being a sealed sub it will roll off faster then a ported sub, so output in the teens will be obviously less impactful then the Ultra as well.

If you are looking at a small footprint with tight clean sound, you could also look toward the Paradigm Servo 15.v2 or a Velodyne DD-15 as well....

Obviously there are limited amounts of compact subs that perform as well as the Fathom line in size (not cost) You pay a pretty penny for that small size performance.

I have a smaller room (1800^3) and I'm running a F112 matched with my Paradigm Sig S4's C3 and ADP's, I am continually impressed with the output of this compact sub in this room... SQ is top notch even with really good output into the upper teens. Replacing a SVS PB12-Plus the SQ is far better, the output is equal, although again it rolls off much earlier then that ported sub. But I would easily trade the SQ for the depth trolling as I listen to more and more music now that I have the F112.

Looking at measurements, Personally I would choose the F113 over the B-15a...

Being a sealed sub it will roll off faster then a ported sub, so output in the teens will be obviously less impactful then the Ultra as well.

Replacing a SVS PB12-Plus the SQ is far better, the output is equal, although again it rolls off much earlier then that ported sub. But I would easily trade the SQ for the depth trolling as I listen to more and more music now that I have the F112.

Looking at measurements, Personally I would choose the F113 over the B-15a...

I don't have any real insight into this comparison, though if I had to guess, the B15 would beat the F110 in output and extension, and be comparable in sound quality. Thrand1 is limiting his choice to these two b/c of price and dealer loyalty. He can get a good deal on a demo B15a that makes it comparable in price to an F110, and I think the F112/3 are out of the budget.

My real reason for responding is that I'm trying to clarify something Warpdrv wrote. He stated that a sealed sub rolls off "faster/earlier" than a ported sub, which is only half true. Sealed subs tend to have a higher tuning point, which means an "earlier" rolloff. However, below that point, they roll off slower, with a 12dB/octave rolloff, compared to 24dB/octave with a ported sub. So with room gain, a sealed sub can come close to the output of a ported sub down low given appropriate room size. I don't know whether 3000cuft is within that range though.

...let me know if I can clarify any further, just looking for a little insight on the f110 and/or B15.

Tyler
Is the f110 even shipping? The dealer's in my area do not have any yet.

Carl Kennedy's blog (http://theprofessionalanswer.com/WordPress/?p=119#more-119) mentioned shipping in July, so a comparison at this point might be a bit premature?

I don't have any real insight into this comparison, though if I had to guess, the B15 would beat the F110 in output and extension, and be comparable in sound quality. Thrand1 is limiting his choice to these two b/c of price and dealer loyalty. He can get a good deal on a demo B15a that makes it comparable in price to an F110, and I think the F112/3 are out of the budget.

My real reason for responding is that I'm trying to clarify something Warpdrv wrote. He stated that a sealed sub rolls off "faster/earlier" than a ported sub, which is only half true. Sealed subs tend to have a higher tuning point, which means an "earlier" rolloff. However, below that point, they roll off slower, with a 12dB/octave rolloff, compared to 24dB/octave with a ported sub. So with room gain, a sealed sub can come close to the output of a ported sub down low given appropriate room size. I don't know whether 3000cuft is within that range though.

Agreed, room gain could yield a similar output, but that would all depend on the sub... a 3000^3 room will likely eat that f110 up and it would struggle IMO compared to the B15 ... He is now comparing 2 sealed subs, and the B15 would more then likely trump the F110 in that size room, with far more piston area..

Agreed, room gain could yield a similar output, but that would all depend on the sub... a 3000^3 room will likely eat that f110 up and it would struggle IMO compared to the B15 ... He is now comparing 2 sealed subs, and the B15 would more then likely trump the F110 in that size room, with far more piston area..

It may have more piston AREA but I don't know if it has more displacement (AREA X excursion), which is a more important value. The F113 "only" has a 13.5 inch woofer but with the huge excursion it displaces as much volume as a fairly good 18 inch woofer...

QUAD POWER!

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk97/The_Bogg/basement329.jpg

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk97/The_Bogg/basement328.jpg

I'm always talking about "quad power" from my 4 subs. For those that didn't get the "joke" from the t-shirt my little girl is wearing, it's the "rune" from the video game Quake 2 which is the "quad power" rune which gives your firepower 4 times the usual damage-inducing power. My wife had my daughter put on the t-shirt (mine, from a long time ago) to pose for the pictures. A nice father's day gift!

Hey Manville, perhaps you have a job for her in quality control, she's really fascinated by the glossy finish.

HAha, Fantastic pictures. I used to be a Quake 3 junkie.

It may have more piston AREA but I don't know if it has more displacement (AREA X excursion), which is a more important value. The F113 "only" has a 13.5 inch woofer but with the huge excursion it displaces as much volume as a fairly good 18 inch woofer...


Precisely, that is why I went with the F112 in my 1800^3 room, its extremely competent, and the huge excursion is a great benefit. I compared the SVS SB12+, PB12+, and the F112, in the same room....

While the SVS subs are very nice, the SB really did put out quite well, and the PB producing monstrous deep bass in the lowest tune in that small room... They just had a little more note overhang/distortion as I am becoming more particular about how my music is reproduced. The improvement of SQ, build quality, and small footprint with the jump to the F112 sold me instantaneously...

Hey Manville, perhaps you have a job for her in quality control, she's really fascinated by the glossy finish.


HAHAHHA Gotta put her in the "Passes the smudge test !!!" Dept...

Nice Pics... cute girl...

Happy Fathers Day The Bogg !!! Enjoy it while they're young.. Soon you will be the least educated person in your house... :rolleyes:;)

what is it with you JL junkies and multi-subs?! :p

you wussies! :D

what is it with you JL junkies and multi-subs?! :p

you wussies! :D

It's a sign of superior intellect. You wouldn't understand. :p

I have two little ones.... satin finish for me. ;)

what is it with you JL junkies and multi-subs?! :p

you wussies! :D

Multiple JL's bring more joy , increase health and make you feel better. :D

Just like multiple silos and four cubes you will have.

Multiples are better...and walls O sub even better. :p

Multiple JL's bring more joy , increase health and make you feel better. :D

Just like multiple silos and four cubes you will have.

Multiples are better...and walls O sub even better. :p

I'm surprised you can still find your Fathoms.:p

So when are you going to teach her what all those shiny knobs on the front do?:)

I like the little dog shadow puppet she made in the top picture.:cool:

Ha, I never noticed the little dog puppet. Guess she likes "woofers". This will be the closest she gets to the speakers/subs. There'll be no running around in here. She's already wearing out the buttons on the dvd player upstairs. This is
why there's a lock on the door to the listening room.

This will be the closest she gets to the speakers/subs. There'll be no running around in here. She's already wearing out the buttons on the dvd player upstairs. This is
why there's a lock on the door to the listening room.

I hear ya...my theater door has a lock on it also. My family room system is inacessible behind the doors of the wall unit. Well, the TV is exposed, and is fingerprinted all the time. :rolleyes:

Mark

I hear ya...my theater door has a lock on it also. My family room system is inacessible behind the doors of the wall unit. Well, the TV is exposed, and is fingerprinted all the time. :rolleyes:

Mark

The BatCave...

So, does all this talk about kids, locks, and superheros mean we've run out things to talk about the sub? :D

When running a second Fathom as a slave, is everything controlled from the master, including, for example, the ELF trim, or do certain controls remain independently available? My second 113 is coming in a few days, and my read of the manual is that all settings are disabled in slave mode, but just want to be sure....

Thanks

yes

yes


Great Reply.... Very Helpful....:confused::rolleyes::(

When running a second Fathom as a slave, is everything controlled from the master, including, for example, the ELF trim, or do certain controls remain independently available? My second 113 is coming in a few days, and my read of the manual is that all settings are disabled in slave mode, but just want to be sure....

Thanks

First, congrats on the second F113. I'm sure you will be very pleased with additional output and improved FR that duals can provide.:cool:

Your read of the manual is correct. In Slave mode, all of the user controls are disabled as the settings are determined on the Master sub.

I know many people prefer the simplicity of running the dual in master slave mode. However once you get beyond duals running them all as master gives more flexibility to control sub interaction. Even in dual mode as long as you are using different placements and not stacking there are advantages to keeping ARO, ELF, Phase active in each sub.

First, congrats on the second F113. I'm sure you will be very pleased with additional output and improved FR that duals can provide.:cool:

Your read of the manual is correct. In Slave mode, all of the user controls are disabled as the settings are determined on the Master sub.

Thanks - a tad more helpful than "yes..." :rolleyes:

I know many people prefer the simplicity of running the dual in master slave mode. However once you get beyond duals running them all as master gives more flexibility to control sub interaction. Even in dual mode as long as you are using different placements and not stacking there are advantages to keeping ARO, ELF, Phase active in each sub.

So you're suggesting perhaps trying to run both as independent master's to see which is better. I suppose I'll try this, though I was hoping to minimize the Frankenstein-like number of knobs switches to adjust to optimize the sound...

Thanks

Well you can certainly optimize with master/slave and if you aren't into tweaking master/slave mode makes it more convenient. Its a question of whether you want more control and "tweakability" for subs at different locations. With quad subs it becomes that much more useful to have individual sub controls in order to integrate them.

Well you can certainly optimize with master/slave and if you aren't into tweaking master/slave mode makes it more convenient. Its a question of whether you want more control and "tweakability" for subs at different locations. With quad subs it becomes that much more useful to have individual sub controls in order to integrate them.

I'm sure you're right, and as much as I'd like plug and play, I know rolling my sleeves up and spending more time will be the better approach...

Now, to GET the second 113....WHERE IS IT!? (hopefully my dealer will get it today...)

This past weekend, I decided on the best placement for my dual f113's in my theater room. I had just been using them in the locations of the subs they replaced since installing them several weeks ago.

I used the Velodyne SMS EQ system built into the DD-15 to assist; I have two of those also. I am using the f113's as LFE subs, since the DD-15's are used as L/R subs.

As described in one of the reviews of the f113, I hooked up the DD-15's test output into my processor, placed the microphone in the primary listening position, muted the Velodyne volume, and moved the JL's around on the floor (on furniture sliders) to see where the response was best in the room. I was only considering the back half of the room given cabling challenges.

The best response was on the side walls, about three feet from the rear corners, in both cases. I was please that there were no significant dips (nulls) in the response. Once the placement was decided, I ran ARO on each sub independently.

I am curious if the sub cabling can be daisy-chained and still both used as master? I only have one LFE output on my processor. I am currently using a Y splitter with unbalanced interconnects going to each sub separately. I am planning to run balanced cables this weekend to finish off the installation. I also still have to set the polarity and phase.

I am extremely happy with the low-end performance of my theater now.


Mark

I am curious if the sub cabling can be daisy-chained and still both used as master? I only have one LFE output on my processor. I am currently using a Y splitter with unbalanced interconnects going to each sub separately. I am planning to run balanced cables this weekend to finish off the installation. I also still have to set the polarity and phase.Mark

Hi Mark, a pair of DD-15's and F113's should be very nice. Unfortunately (are you listening Manville), you cannot daisy chain Fathoms except in the Master Slave config. The only option for dual or more Fathoms run as Master subs is to split the LFE (like you are doing). Is there a reason why you are running balanced cables if you already have unbalanced to the subs and they are working?

Hi Mark, a pair of DD-15's and F113's should be very nice. Unfortunately (are you listening Manville), you cannot daisy chain Fathoms except in the Master Slave config. The only option for dual or more Fathoms run as Master subs is to split the LFE (like you are doing). Is there a reason why you are running balanced cables if you already have unbalanced to the subs and they are working?

Well, because one run is about 40 feet. Also, the processor has balanced outputs, and the subs have balanced inputs. Doesn't it (technically) result in a "cleaner" signal to the subs?

The loss of independent control of one sub may not be a deal breaker, since the response in both locations is very close.

Alternatively, I could use the balanced input on the long run sub and the unbalanced input on the short run sub, allowing independent control of both.

Thoughts?

Mark

If you use a combo of balanced and unbalanced you might have a 6db difference in level between the subs. That can easily be adjusted using the volume control on the sub.
Experimentation is the key. I know the difference in cable lengths doesn't really make a difference in delaying the signal to the sub with the longer cable but I like to keep the cables equal in length if possible. However, if 1 is 40ft and the other is say 10ft I'd use different length cables for sure.

Hi Mark, a pair of DD-15's and F113's should be very nice. Unfortunately (are you listening Manville), you cannot daisy chain Fathoms except in the Master Slave config. The only option for dual or more Fathoms run as Master subs is to split the LFE (like you are doing). Is there a reason why you are running balanced cables if you already have unbalanced to the subs and they are working?

I hear you, Robert... good input (get it?). :)

If you prefer independent control and want to daisy-chaing the wiring, you can always place an XLR splitter right at the first subwoofer and run a cable from there to the second unit. The cables do not need to be equal lengths for any practical reason. The signal is traveling at close to the speed of light and should comfortably outrun the speed of sound. ;)

If you use a combo of balanced and unbalanced you might have a 6db difference in level between the subs.

That's a new one:confused:
I understood there was little or no difference between balanced and unbalanced (or more correctly, XLR and RCA). BTW, I run both and have noticed no level difference although it would be difficult to tell.

I hear you, Robert... good input (get it?). :)

If you prefer independent control and want to daisy-chaing the wiring, you can always place an XLR splitter right at the first subwoofer and run a cable from there to the second unit. The cables do not need to be equal lengths for any practical reason. The signal is traveling at close to the speed of light and should comfortably outrun the speed of sound. ;)

How about you ship an XLR and RCA splitter (JL Audio quality:)) with every set of dual subs purchased (and make it retroactive to Jan. of 07:p;)).

If you prefer independent control and want to daisy-chaing the wiring, you can always place an XLR splitter right at the first subwoofer and run a cable from there to the second unit. The cables do not need to be equal lengths for any practical reason. The signal is traveling at close to the speed of light and should comfortably outrun the speed of sound. ;)

That's how I daisy chain. But it would be simpler to have an XLR out in the sub rather than use external splitters.

How about you ship an XLR and RCA splitter (JL Audio quality:)) with every set of dual subs purchased (and make it retroactive to Jan. of 07:p;)).

XLR splitter doesn't exist.... So have I heard. wired splitter I talk about, like rca splitter

XLR splitter doesn't exist.... So have I heard. wired splitter I talk about, like rca splitter


Really, I could have sworned I've seen some..Hmm maybe custom from Carda???

Djoel

XLR splitter doesn't exist.... So have I heard. wired splitter I talk about, like rca splitter

http://www.gfprod.com/gfpphotos/GFPY.JPG

http://www.gfprod.com/gfpphotos/GFPY.JPG

Hmmmm I asked a dealer if they existed and they said NO... asked several shops actually.
hmm doesn't noise increase with this solution or ?

There exist any technical documents on these splitters cons pros etc ?

Great Reply.... Very Helpful....:confused::rolleyes::(

Sorry I didn't answer the way you wanted me to. By the way (specifically you Warpdrv) people who live in glasses houses shouldn't throw stones. Your answer was even more helpful then mine!!:rolleyes:

Hmmmm I asked a dealer if they existed and they said NO... asked several shops actually.


Than meant he did have them, or never seen them.

typical dealer answer:rolleyes:

DJoel

Sorry I didn't answer the way you wanted me to. By the way (specifically you Warpdrv) people who live in glasses houses shouldn't throw stones. Your answer was even more helpful then mine!!:rolleyes:




You didn't answer his question, so why did you bother answering at all.

Thanks for the nasty little PM.... If you had something meaningful to add, maybe you should have explained it a little better instead of just "yes" :confused::rolleyes:

Welcome to my ignore list....

Hmmmm I asked a dealer if they existed and they said NO... asked several shops actually.
hmm doesn't noise increase with this solution or ?

There exist any technical documents on these splitters cons pros etc ?

I bought a set from Blue Jeans cable. Nothing technically wrong with wiring them in parallel. Shouldn't induce any noise as long as they are constructed properly.

That's a new one:confused:
I understood there was little or no difference between balanced and unbalanced (or more correctly, XLR and RCA). BTW, I run both and have noticed no level difference although it would be difficult to tell.

Many components aren't "truly" balanced and will have the same output level for xlr and rca. Other times the manufacturer has padded down the output of the xlr output to match the rca output. If you can't tell the difference then there probably is no difference in your setup because 6db is quite audible.

Many components aren't "truly" balanced and will have the same output level for xlr and rca. Other times the manufacturer has padded down the output of the xlr output to match the rca output. If you can't tell the difference then there probably is no difference in your setup because 6db is quite audible.

No question that a 6db delta would be noticeable and my Integra 9.8 may have the pseudo balanced outputs you describe. I have the SMS-1 connected to the Integra via XLR’s and the front Fathoms (F112’s) also connected via XLR’s. The rear F113’s are connected to the SMS-1 with an in-floor 10 meter RCA. As you know, JL requires an XLR connection between the Master and Slave Subs.
Looks like if I ever go to a truly balanced SSP I will need to re-cable the rear Fathoms or just go the un-balanced route.

Rob,
the processor doesn't have to be fully balanced to have the 6db delta. My Anthem D2 has the 6db delta but it isn't fully balanced technically speaking. I don't know if any ssp is truly balanced which essentially doubles the circuitry, but it can still be considered balanced depending on how the circuit is implemented, as opposed to the xlr outputs just being simply wired in parallel to the rca outputs and it's just a connector without the corresponding circuitry.
I think you can put an rca into the master sub and then run the xlr into the slave sub if I'm not mistaken. Perhaps Manville can confirm this.

Rob,
I think you can put an rca into the master sub and then run the xlr into the slave sub if I'm not mistaken. Perhaps Manville can confirm this.

That is correct... details are all in the manual.

Rob,
the processor doesn't have to be fully balanced to have the 6db delta. My Anthem D2 has the 6db delta but it isn't fully balanced technically speaking. I don't know if any ssp is truly balanced which essentially doubles the circuitry, but it can still be considered balanced depending on how the circuit is implemented, as opposed to the xlr outputs just being simply wired in parallel to the rca outputs and it's just a connector without the corresponding circuitry.
I think you can put an rca into the master sub and then run the xlr into the slave sub if I'm not mistaken. Perhaps Manville can confirm this.

I am currently running RCA into my Master F113 and an XLR to the Slave. The F112's are all XLR.

Here are a few shots from my new dual 113 setup, posted originally as part of my review of my new RBH speaker system:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14169204#post14169204

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=114068&stc=1&d=1214601568
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=114067&stc=1&d=1214601568
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=114069&stc=1&d=1214601568
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=114070&stc=1&d=1214601568

Very nice! Congrats!!

WOW!!! Very nice!

Wow, Fantastic Greg...What are those absorbent looking piece underneath the sub, and speakers? Must sound great with twins...Damn too bad I have to go get ready for a darn wedding...Dead man walking.



DJoel

Wow, Fantastic Greg...What are those absorbent looking piece underneath the sub, and speakers? Must sound great with twins...Damn too bad I have to go get ready for a darn wedding...Dead man walking.



DJoel

Thanks...I'm using Auralex GRAMMA iso pads under the subs, and Auralex SubDude's as isolation pads between the Fathoms and the T-1/SE-R's

Things are sounding much better than before - less boom, better balance. Still have a but more tweaking to go with the SMS-1, but I'm probably 80 to 90% dialed in.

As with many speakers, experimentation with toe-in made some big differences with the RBH - at first they were toed-in too much, which collapsed the sound a tad. The toe in is more modest now (laser mark puts a perpendicular line from the vertical center of the baffle to about 38" left and right of the main listening position for the L/R speakers) Much better soundstaging and articulation.

I do have a hump in the SMS at around 125 (I will take and post a screen shot later), but I've been told to really focus on a smooth and flat response around the crossover (70), and not worry so much about the high frequencies in the SMS..is this the right approach? Otherwise, I may go back to my homebuilt stands for the RBH's and do a more diagonal left front/right back positioning with the 113's....

Awesome setup there Thrang.... I know you were wavering between the RBH's and the Paradigm Sigs, and now that I see your setup, it looks simply amazing... It really came together nicely, and very tastefully done IMO... Congrats...

The RBH's directly on top of the Fathoms is impressive.. and a great decision...

Awesome setup there Thrang.... I know you were wavering between the RBH's and the Paradigm Sigs, and now that I see your setup, it looks simply amazing... It really came together nicely, and very tastefully done IMO... Congrats...

The RBH's directly on top of the Fathoms is impressive.. and a great decision...

Thanks - I suspect I wouldn't have gone wrong either way, but part of it came down to going with my first instincts, and not wanting to have any regrets changing my mind for no overwhelming compelling reason. I'm glad I went the way I did.

Yeah, but it looks like that setup stacked integrates better in your room then
the Sigs would... Glad your happy with it...

Yeah, but it looks like that setup stacked integrates better in your room then
the Sigs would... Glad your happy with it...

Of course, if my wife had gotten a glimpse of the natural birdseye maple Sigs, these RBH's would have never had a chance...:)

I'm watching King King right now...chilling how visceral and realistic it is....

I played with the SMS more, and settled on a 60 crossover point for the fronts...

Now, do I play with bi-amping?...:eek:

Nice job thrang.:cool:

I am also using a 60Hz Xover for the mains (the rest are 80) and this is the SMS-1 graph of the room.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n86/rmk_01/003.jpg
This is from the sweet spot but with these settings it is nearly this good across the four primary seating positions. This also represents a 3db cut @25Hz using the F113's ELF Trim. As you would expect with quad subs, I have plenty of headroom.

Nice job thrang.:cool:

I am also using a 60Hz Xover for the mains (the rest are 80) and this is the SMS-1 graph of the room.
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n86/rmk_01/003.jpg
This is from the sweet spot but with these settings it is nearly this good across the four primary seating positions. This also represents a 3db cut @25Hz using the F113's ELF Trim. As you would expect with quad subs, I have plenty of headroom.

That looks good, to the extent that I understand the ramifications of the SMS!

Here's mine at the moment...still need some more tweaking I think...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=114148&stc=1&d=1214688727

Beautiful!:)
What size is your tv?
Thanks
Ryan

Beautiful!:)
What size is your tv?
Thanks
Ryan

If you are asking me: Sony 70" SXRD XBR2

Are either of you using both the SMS1 and Multi EQ or just the SMS1? Which do you feel is giving you better results?

Are either of you using both the SMS1 and Multi EQ or just the SMS1? Which do you feel is giving you better results?

I'm using both - I'm using ARO, Audyssey then the SMS. I may try the SMS second then Audyssey to see how things differ...but the pain of running MultiEQ AGAIN....:(

Are either of you using both the SMS1 and Multi EQ or just the SMS1? Which do you feel is giving you better results?

I have Multi EQ (Integra 9.8) and it does makes the in room FR "ruler flat" ... but the result is a lifeless sound that I can't get used to (hate it). It may be because I have extensive room treatments and Muti EQ assumes an untreated space. In any case, I have run Audyssey many times trying to get it "right" with no luck. It is off now and my system sounds great.

I have Multi EQ (Integra 9.8) and it does makes the in room FR "ruler flat" ... but the result is a lifeless sound that I can't get used to (hate it). It may be because I have extensive room treatments and Muti EQ assumes an untreated space. In any case, I have run Audyssey many times trying to get it "right" with no luck. It is off now and my system sounds great.

That's not the first time I heard that about the MultiEQ. A shame since I always though that that ruler flat was the goal.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=114068&stc=1&d=1214601568



Nice looking subs. Have you tried to put each sub in a corner so they can use the walls more + take away the stuff underneath them?

Nice looking subs. Have you tried to put each sub in a corner so they can use the walls more + take away the stuff underneath them?

Well, the left sub is fairly near the corner as is - if I put it further to the corner, I won't have enough space for any type of a stand for the left main speaker.

The right is as far as it can go - to the right of the current placement is the entrance to the room, with a corner loaded doorway. Here's an earlier photo before the Fathoms went into place, showing a bit more of that issue:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=114176&stc=1&d=1214744260

The platforms underneath are Aurlex GRAMMAs and are being used to help maintain the proper height of the main tweeters. I doubt there is any benefit/detriment to them on a carpeted floor....

That's not the first time I heard that about the MultiEQ. A shame since I always though that that ruler flat was the goal.

Me too but when you think about it, isn't natural sound really the goal? When an orchestra (or any band) plays, the instruments don't all play at the same volume and intensity. The challenge of EQ is to eliminate room induced anomalies (peaks and nulls) while maintaining the natural dynamics of the original performance or recording. Those are some pretty complex algorithms and I don’t care for Audyssey’s version of sound with my equipment and in my room. To me, the Audyssey treated version of music often sounds boring and lifeless.

The analogy that comes to mind is it’s like putting power steering on a sports car. You lose the feel of the road.

Sorry for the OT post :o

Just a slight heads up, because I didn't see any warning about this in the manual, and perhaps it was just some isolated quirk for me...

I had originally set up things as a master slave with my dual 113's. This morning, I decided to runs as dual masters and see if I had better control of eq and response. I turned off the slave sub, disconnected the XLR cable, reset it to master, and turned it back on - there was noticeable low-level hum, like a bad ground issue. The isolated/ground option made no difference, and the hum was volume dependent.

I turned off and unplugged the unit for 10 minutes, and tried again. This time the moderate hum suddenly got A LOT louder, like scary loud. Turned off and unplugged, tried a few more times - same thing.

I then noticed if I defeated ARO on the sub, it fell silent. I ran ARO again, and now all is good.

That was a very strange issue - I can understand the need to run ARO for optimal performance, but why would the sub be blasting a noise tone at a fairly high volume before you even get a chance to run ARO? Yikes....

Me too but when you think about it, isn't natural sound really the goal? When an orchestra (or any band) plays, the instruments don't all play at the same volume and intensity. The challenge of EQ is to eliminate room induced anomalies (peaks and nulls) while maintaining the natural dynamics of the original performance or recording. Those are some pretty complex algorithms and I don’t care for Audyssey’s version of sound with my equipment and in my room. To me, the Audyssey treated version of music often sounds boring and lifeless.

The analogy that comes to mind is it’s like putting power steering on a sports car. You lose the feel of the road.

Sorry for the OT post :o


Very good point. However, I would assume the dynamics would come from the source recording and the way it was mixed. The flat response after EQing is a basline. No? or does the EQ actively keep everything flat even during playback?

Just a slight heads up, because I didn't see any warning about this in the manual, and perhaps it was just some isolated quirk for me...

I had originally set up things as a master slave with my dual 113's. This morning, I decided to runs as dual masters and see if I had better control of eq and response. I turned off the slave sub, disconnected the XLR cable, reset it to master, and turned it back on - there was noticeable low-level hum, like a bad ground issue. The isolated/ground option made no difference, and the hum was volume dependent.

I turned off and unplugged the unit for 10 minutes, and tried again. This time the moderate hum suddenly got A LOT louder, like scary loud. Turned off and unplugged, tried a few more times - same thing.

I then noticed if I defeated ARO on the sub, it fell silent. I ran ARO again, and now all is good.

That was a very strange issue - I can understand the need to run ARO for optimal performance, but why would the sub be blasting a noise tone at a fairly high volume before you even get a chance to run ARO? Yikes....

I’ve heard that noise before and you are lucky everything is OK. I lost the ARO Circuit on one of my F113’s during a similar playing around session. It is wise to unplug the power cable BEFORE making any cabling or Master/Slave changes.

I’ve heard that noise before and you are lucky everything is OK. I lost the ARO Circuit on one of my F113’s during a similar playing around session. It is wise to unplug the power cable BEFORE making any cabling or Master/Slave changes.

I did! Power switch off, then unplugged. It would hum even when the switch was in the off position, as soon as I plugged power back...

But that's a bit scary if there's something so sensitive in the circuitry, especially since the manual makes no warning of switching from master to slave and any potential issues if not done "right".

What happened with your ARO circuit? (and my first 113 had a bad auto power off sensor - it would never turn off. JLAudio was great and swapped the unit right away, but one would hope that such solidly build tanks wouldn't have such weak spots.

Very good point. However, I would assume the dynamics would come from the source recording and the way it was mixed. The flat response after EQing is a basline. No? or does the EQ actively keep everything flat even during playback?

I am way out of my element trying to give a technical explanation as to what I am hearing. In my simple (OK simplistic:o) terms, auto EQ’s like Audyssey can help with poor room acoustics, poor speaker placement etc but at the price of modifying the sound. I’m not convinced it can improve a good sounding system and in my case, based upon my ears, it had a negative effect.

I did! Power switch off, then unplugged. It would hum even when the switch was in the off position, as soon as I plugged power back...

But that's a bit scary if there's something so sensitive in the circuitry, especially since the manual makes no warning of switching from master to slave and any potential issues if not done "right".

What happened with your ARO circuit? (and my first 113 had a bad auto power off sensor - it would never turn off. JLAudio was great and swapped
the unit right away, but one would hope that such solidly build tanks wouldn't have such weak spots.

I didn't come away from my incident knowing specifically what happened nor am I concerned it will happen again given the simple precaution of unplugging the unit (I didn't). As to whether JL should warn users as to potential danger, I recall the manual does describe this simple safeguard.

We hobbyists/tweakers push the envelope and sometimes, we may get burned. They can only go so far to idiot proof electronic devices and still give the tweakability options we all seem to want.

Sounds strange like a glitch in the ARO software coming off of Slave mode to Master and then having to re-run ARO... Sounds like its looking for that connection point and it goes a bit haywire... glad you were able to get rid of the hum, and it was only temporary.

Thanks for posting as well, in case of others running into the same issue....

I am way out of my element trying to give a technical explanation as to what I am hearing. In my simple (OK simplistic:o) terms, auto EQ’s like Audyssey can help with poor room acoustics, poor speaker placement etc but at the price of modifying the sound. I’m not convinced it can improve a good sounding system and in my case, based upon my ears, it had a negative effect.


I trust your judgement. Seeing the speakers you're running, I'm sure you have a good ear :). I'm still caught between the Integra and the Marantz right but as soon as I'm board, I'll be curious what kind of results I get with MultiEQ.

I trust your judgement. Seeing the speakers you're running, I'm sure you have a good ear :). I'm still caught between the Integra and the Marantz right but as soon as I'm board, I'll be curious what kind of results I get with MultiEQ.

Good speakers are no guarantee of a good ear but thanks:).

I chose the Integra for its HD Audio codex handling and the dual HDMI outs. Audyssey was just icing on the cake and as it turns out, I like my cake without.;)

Good speakers are no guarantee of a good ear but thanks:).

I chose the Integra for its HD Audio codex handling and the dual HDMI outs. Audyssey was just icing on the cake and as it turns out, I like my cake without.;)

What did you need dual HDMI out for partner....?

Well, I feel like I used to when I would troubleshoot Window OS...after several hours of trying things, somehow the problem was fixed...but damned if you could identify which of the 84 steps you took or what sequence was the actual answer.

Right now, I've got the best response and real-world sound that I've had. How? First, I switched to separate masters with the 113's, and ARO'd each of them. I then disabled Audyssey and ran the SMS, trying various combinations of phase/polarity both on the 113's themselves and in the SMS. I got a decent, but not great curve. I added my M&K MX100 sub back into the mix, in the right rear of the room, and things got a bit better. But still not pleased.

So I'm thinking it's time to move the subs to different locations and begin that laborious process.

For the hell of it, I turned the previous Audyssey EQ back ON, and with a few minor SMS tweaks, got to here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=114189&stc=1&d=1214762319

Sound is as solid as it's ever been - not sure if I should be overly concerned with the curve at 160 or so, but how this actually all worked is slightly mysterious..:)

What did you need dual HDMI out for partner....?


I have a projector/screen in addition to the plasma. Here is the screen up:
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n86/rmk_01/IMG_2149.jpg
and here deployed with the Studio1's and dual F112's:)
http://i110.photobucket.com/albums/n86/rmk_01/IMG_2107.jpg

What did you need dual HDMI out for partner....?Rob has an LCD or plasma TV and a front projector in the same room. I would guess they both have HDMI inputs.

Well, the left sub is fairly near the corner as is - if I put it further to the corner, I won't have enough space for any type of a stand for the left main speaker.


Well, I would have tried to put them on the floor and against both corners, to have a better connection to the walls and better bassrespons. Then I could move the main speakers where they sound best, one of the great reason to have two subs, that one can place the subs where they playing best (mostly in corners) and the mainspeakers more from the wall, where they sound the best. :)

Well, I feel like I used to when I would troubleshoot Window OS...after several hours of trying things, somehow the problem was fixed...but damned if you could identify which of the 84 steps you took or what sequence was the actual answer.

Right now, I've got the best response and real-world sound that I've had. How? First, I switched to separate masters with the 113's, and ARO'd each of them. I then disabled Audyssey and ran the SMS, trying various combinations of phase/polarity both on the 113's themselves and in the SMS. I got a decent, but not great curve. I added my M&K MX100 sub back into the mix, in the right rear of the room, and things got a bit better. But still not pleased.

So I'm thinking it's time to move the subs to different locations and begin that laborious process.

For the hell of it, I turned the previous Audyssey EQ back ON, and with a few minor SMS tweaks, got to here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=114189&stc=1&d=1214762319

Sound is as solid as it's ever been - not sure if I should be overly concerned with the curve at 160 or so, but how this actually all worked is slightly mysterious..:)

I'm glad Audyssey is working for you. The FR curve looks good and if it sounds good, your done. Did you try serveral locations or just one?

I'm glad Audyssey is working for you. The FR curve looks good and if it sounds good, your done. Did you try serveral locations or just one?


looks good...??

I would be super happy with a FR that looked like that... It doesn't get much smoother then what you have there thrang, all the way down to below 15hz.... :)

looks good...??

I would be super happy with a FR that looked like that... It doesn't get much smoother then what you have there thrang, all the way down to below 15hz.... :)


Thanks, that's what I'm thinking - I'll try and post what the curve looks like with Audyssey disabled for comparison

Should I look into the "morning hair" portion of the response at around 160, or don't worry...?

RMK!,

Gorgeous speakers, Revel's reference is truly something special. Congrats on a killer(in a good way) setup.

Thanks, that's what I'm thinking - I'll try and post what the curve looks like with Audyssey disabled for comparison

Should I look into the "morning hair" portion of the response at around 160, or don't worry...?

Personally, I wouldn't concern myself with that so much...

That response looks phenomenal....

This past weekend, I decided on the best placement for my dual f113's in my theater room. I had just been using them in the locations of the subs they replaced since installing them several weeks ago.

I used the Velodyne SMS EQ system built into the DD-15 to assist; I have two of those also. I am using the f113's as LFE subs, since the DD-15's are used as L/R subs.

As described in one of the reviews of the f113, I hooked up the DD-15's test output into my processor, placed the microphone in the primary listening position, muted the Velodyne volume, and moved the JL's around on the floor (on furniture sliders) to see where the response was best in the room. I was only considering the back half of the room given cabling challenges.

The best response was on the side walls, about three feet from the rear corners, in both cases. I was please that there were no significant dips (nulls) in the response. Once the placement was decided, I ran ARO on each sub independently.

I am curious if the sub cabling can be daisy-chained and still both used as master? I only have one LFE output on my processor. I am currently using a Y splitter with unbalanced interconnects going to each sub separately. I am planning to run balanced cables this weekend to finish off the installation. I also still have to set the polarity and phase.

I am extremely happy with the low-end performance of my theater now.


Mark

Hi Mark, a pair of DD-15's and F113's should be very nice. Unfortunately (are you listening Manville), you cannot daisy chain Fathoms except in the Master Slave config. The only option for dual or more Fathoms run as Master subs is to split the LFE (like you are doing). Is there a reason why you are running balanced cables if you already have unbalanced to the subs and they are working?

Well, because one run is about 40 feet. Also, the processor has balanced outputs, and the subs have balanced inputs. Doesn't it (technically) result in a "cleaner" signal to the subs?

The loss of independent control of one sub may not be a deal breaker, since the response in both locations is very close.

Alternatively, I could use the balanced input on the long run sub and the unbalanced input on the short run sub, allowing independent control of both.

Thoughts?

Mark

If you use a combo of balanced and unbalanced you might have a 6db difference in level between the subs. That can easily be adjusted using the volume control on the sub.
Experimentation is the key. I know the difference in cable lengths doesn't really make a difference in delaying the signal to the sub with the longer cable but I like to keep the cables equal in length if possible. However, if 1 is 40ft and the other is say 10ft I'd use different length cables for sure.

I hear you, Robert... good input (get it?). :)

If you prefer independent control and want to daisy-chaing the wiring, you can always place an XLR splitter right at the first subwoofer and run a cable from there to the second unit. The cables do not need to be equal lengths for any practical reason. The signal is traveling at close to the speed of light and should comfortably outrun the speed of sound. ;)

I made my balanced cables this past weekend. Based on the advice, I decided to configure each sub as a "master". I ran separate balanced cables from the equipment room to each sub. I also made my own XLR splitter for use at the processor's one LFE output.

Next, I have to finalize the remainder of the settings (polarity, phase, etc.) with the assistance of the SMS-1.

Thanks for the advice.

Mark

looks good...??

I would be super happy with a FR that looked like that... It doesn't get much smoother then what you have there thrang, all the way down to below 15hz.... :)

I achieved the flattest FR graph by using the SMS-1 and Multi EQ. I did not like the way my system sounded in that mode. Now (minus Audyssey), I have a slightly less flat FR graph but I prefer the sound of the system.

My point is that the goal should be the best sound based upon your taste. While they are helpful, I use the Velo FR graphs as a guide, not a goal.

I achieved the flattest FR graph by using the SMS-1 and Multi EQ. I did not like the way my system sounded in that mode. Now (minus Audyssey), I have a slightly less flat FR graph but I prefer the sound of the system.

My point is that the goal should be the best sound based upon your taste. While they are helpful, I use the Velo FR graphs as a guide, not a goal.

I guess more over the fact that the point I was trying to make was, it is quite flat already, without much EQ, allows one to tweak in any manor without much EQ added to the source to get where they want quite easily...

Of coarse, I agree with you RMK!, flat isn't always desirable, but it sure makes for a nice starting place... :) I prefer a nice little bump in the 2nd octave myself, for that oh so admirable punch in the chest.....

I guess more over the fact that the point I was trying to make was, it is quite flat already, without much EQ, allows one to tweak in any manor without much EQ added to the source to get where they want quite easily...

Of coarse, I agree with you RMK!, flat isn't always desirable, but it sure makes for a nice starting place... :) I prefer a nice little bump in the 2nd octave myself, for that oh so admirable punch in the chest.....

I may be wrong about this but I believe the graph that thrang posted was with Multi EQ active. That means that Audyssey has already EQ'ed the native signal before the SMS-1's graph. My experience is that Multi EQ can be quite aggressive in its EQ of the lower frequencies.

I may be wrong about this but I believe the graph that thrang posted was with Multi EQ active. That means that Audyssey has already EQ'ed the native signal before the SMS-1's graph. My experience is that Multi EQ can be quite aggressive in its EQ of the lower frequencies.


Could be... Multiple amounts of EQ is not necessarily the best scenario...

I'm not a huge fan of Audyssey either.... I have Pioneer equipment, and MCACC doesn't have a huge implication on the lower octaves, which leads me to rendering my own EQ on those area's...

I certainly don't like what MCACC does to the EQ portion of my FR. It completely distorts everything, and I revert to flattening all the EQing that it does... although I do allow it to run its correction on delay and room anomalies...

I may be wrong about this but I believe the graph that thrang posted was with Multi EQ active. That means that Audyssey has already EQ'ed the native signal before the SMS-1's graph. My experience is that Multi EQ can be quite aggressive in its EQ of the lower frequencies.

Yes, Audyssey was enabled in the end - without it, I was still too heavy from 25 to 70 or so, and even excessive cuts in the SMS wouldn't have gotten it as tame.

Now, I suppose I could have tried taking the 113's out of Reference mode and use the variable volume control, but at one point, I was -9 db in my AVR for subwoofer, and at a five or six for volume level in the SMS - that's skimming the water!

If I have a chance today, I'll disable Audyssey and post a screen shot for comparison

This past weekend, three of my nieces were over and wanted to watch a movie. I put the movie on for them at -20dB (from reference level) and went outside the theater to sit at my computer and pay bills. I closed both doors so I would have a little peace and quiet.

Well, the two fathoms had other plans, as the wall started shaking like someone was hitting it with a sledgehammer. Now, this is the outer wall of a double-wall section; the walls are not connected I was thinking, I have to watch that scene myself at the level (-10dB) I watch movies.

Last night I watched that scene, and it was incredible how the fathoms pressurized the room. The movie was Ratatouille (Blu-ray), and the scene was chapter 4 (the elderly woman with the shotgun).

All I can say is WOW!!

Interestingly, I was watching the DD (640 Kbps) track so that my D-Box motion platform would move also. I decided to compare the DD and PCM tracks with this scene.

The bass hits with the shotgun did not have as much impact with the PCM track. I know that the levels are different, and that may have affected my perception, despite adjusting the volume control between the two tracks.

Further, I am using the multi-channel analog outputs from my Denon 3800 to a Lexicon MC-12 and then re-digitizing the signal, for the PCM track; the DD track is sent via coax.

Still my gut tells me the DD track was better for bass, in my setup. I think the additional A/D and D/A conversion may not be as transparent as I thought.

Mark

Yes, Audyssey was enabled in the end - without it, I was still too heavy from 25 to 70 or so, and even excessive cuts in the SMS wouldn't have gotten it as tame.

Now, I suppose I could have tried taking the 113's out of Reference mode and use the variable volume control, but at one point, I was -9 db in my AVR for subwoofer, and at a five or six for volume level in the SMS - that's skimming the water!

If I have a chance today, I'll disable Audyssey and post a screen shot for comparison

Hey, if Audyssey is working for you that’s great. I'm fortunate to have a room where I can hang acoustic treatments where ever needed. Along those lines, I'm still working on the room acoustics and spent an hour or so on the phone with one of the GIK Acoustics guys. He was able to look at my room photos on Photobucket and make some suggestions based upon what I told him and what he could see. Obviously, not as good as an on-site consultation with measurements, but I’ll take his 20+ years of experience vs. my guessing;).

I'm getting a few of their 4" Bass Trap Panels to see if I can clean up the LFE a bit. I will also be getting some 2" panels for the ceiling to treat the first reflection there.

I know what you mean about "skimming". My SSP has the Sub out @-12db and the SMS-1 is at 12 so lots left in the tank. Headroom is good but I feel I need to tighten up the bass a bit so I can tap into that LFE reservoir without overpowering the midrange and higher frequencies.

Hey, if Audyssey is working for you that’s great. I'm fortunate to have a room where I can hang acoustic treatments where ever needed. Along those lines, I'm still working on the room acoustics and spent an hour or so on the phone with one of the GIK Acoustics guys. He was able to look at my room photos on Photobucket and make some suggestions based upon what I told him and what he could see. Obviously, not as good as an on-site consultation with measurements, but I’ll take his 20+ years of experience vs. my guessing;).

I'm getting a few of their 4" Bass Trap Panels to see if I can clean up the LFE a bit. I will also be getting some 2" panels for the ceiling to treat the first reflection there.

I know what you mean about "skimming". My SSP has the Sub out @-12db and the SMS-1 is at 12 so lots left in the tank. Headroom is good but I feel I need to tighten up the bass a bit so I can tap into that LFE reservoir without overpowering the midrange and higher frequencies.

I'm sure the treatments will help - I'm using some home built ones myself - 2 - 4" 2x4' panels behind each speaker, 2 - 4" 2x4' panels angled against the right side and rear wall, two 4' high corner traps in the rear corners, and 2 - 2x4' wall panels, one each beneath the back speakers. They're made with either mineral wool or Rockboard, and wrapped with burlap fabric from atsacoustics (that may be GOM material anyway...) that are pretty close to my wall colors.

So we can not buy the JL Fathom online! Correct?

The closest dealer is 90 miles away, I wonder if they have a good return policy....send an email.

I would like to do a sub shootout in my HT room in September/October with these subs...

the F113, the PB-13, MFW-15, the Scamp10 and hopefully the new HSU sub.

Anyone on in Florida own the F113? Kind of a dumb question when JL audio is in Miramar, FL. Maybe they will let me demo one......hmm.

So we can not buy the JL Fathom online! Correct?

The closest dealer is 90 miles away, I wonder if they have a good return policy....send an email.

I would like to do a sub shootout in my HT room in September/October with these subs...

the F113, the PB-13, MFW-15, the Scamp10 and hopefully the new HSU sub.

Anyone on in Florida own the F113? Kind of a dumb question when JL audio is in Miramar, FL. Maybe they will let me demo one......hmm.

That sounds interesting. Where in Florida are you?

hey guys im looking for a used fathom f112 to add to my system. if anybody here knows anyone that wants to sell theres please let me know.

That sounds interesting. Where in Florida are you?

North Florida, Gainesville.

RMK!.....this one is for you ;)

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/508/LOTR_return_of_quad_king.jpg

Good one Sherv. :D I always thought the guy with the sword looked like Rob.

Good one Sherv. :D I always thought the guy with the sword looked like Rob.

yep...hehehe:D

oh, and he may appreciate this one, with only 3 out of 4, and 1st pass EQing only:
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f38/ssabripo/ava18%20sealed%20measurements/7-06-083-sealedeqappliedcolorgraph.jpg

Looking very good to 12hz! :cool: What are you running?

Looking very good to 12hz! :cool: What are you running?

well...it's not bad. I haven't dialed it in yet, since I'm still building the 4th one. But that 4th should help get rid of that dip around 11hz.

we shall see.

I'm still running dual crown K2's for power, and a DEQ2496 for EQ and L/T purposes

Yikes:eek: … based upon that graph (with only three subs active), you will definitely be the Quad Sealed King.
It’s good to be the King.;)

How is that bed liner finish working out?

Yikes:eek: … based upon that graph (with only three subs active), you will definitely be the Quad Sealed King.
It’s good to be the King.;)

How is that bed liner finish working out?
waiting for the 4th one to start the painting.:o


moved the one lonely sealed to the other side of the couch (on the right), and used dual 6dB Low shelv filters, instead of a single 12dB shelv filter! Man, I should have done this from the get-go! :eek:

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f38/ssabripo/ava18%20sealed%20measurements/7-10-083-sealedeqappliedoficina.jpg

waiting for the 4th one to start the painting.:o


moved the one lonely sealed to the other side of the couch (on the right), and used dual 6dB Low shelv filters, instead of a single 12dB shelv filter! Man, I should have done this from the get-go! :eek:

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f38/ssabripo/ava18%20sealed%20measurements/7-10-083-sealedeqappliedoficina.jpg

Remember the line from the original Jaws ... "we're gonna need a bigger boat" ?

Shervin, you're gonna need a bigger boat.:p

Yup. I can see Sherv now with his boat and subs.:D

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c337/JohnPalumbo/ksmn1256l1.jpg

Im done....i think my quest and journey of subs for the past 4 years has come to a very good conclusion.















for now! :D

You need eight modules,four extra stacked in the four you have. Anything under eight subs is just too common. :p

Since this build turned out so well,I am considering a fourth Maelstrom-X. :D

PS Excuse the hijack Mr. Manville.

New review:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/subwoofer-reviews/subwoofers/jl-audio-fathom-f113-subwoofer.html

You need eight modules,four extra stacked in the four you have. Anything under eight subs is just too common. :p

or just four f212's :D

New review:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/subwoofer-reviews/subwoofers/jl-audio-fathom-f113-subwoofer.html

I don't know what it is about hometheaterhifi.com but every time I go there the pages crash. That's on different computers too. I used to go there all the time but now it's a pita because I have to keep reloading internet explorer and hoping it stays up long enough to read the articles.

I have my F113s on 2 separate 20 amp circuits on my Equitech 7.5Q balanced power unit. I figured it would be easy to just hit the 2 switches on the Equitech to turn the subs on and off. Turns out that 1 of my subs doesn't like that - I'm not sure if it's too much inrush or what but 1 of the subs acted funny each time I've turned the power on the Equitech with the sub power already on. Yesterday I could hear a bit of buzzing from the one sub and see the woofer oscillating back and forth. It did the same thing even after the signal cable was disconnected. After I unplugged the sub
and then restarted it everything was fine. It works fine. Guess I'll have to manually shut down the subs each time - it's a bit of extra exercise I guess. Perhaps I'll try the auto-on function.

You'd figure after years of edumacation that I'd be able to read. I was going through my Anthem D2 manual again and came across the part where it says that if you have 2 subs and set it to 2 subs in the menu then it automatically reduces the volume of the test tones to calibrate speaker levels. Guess I had forgotten that because I had the subs down 6db. I was always reasonably impressed by the bass from 2 subs but thought that they weren't optimized for the room. Finally played around with phase and fine tuning the frequency response and measuring. I was just using 2 of the 4 subs because I figure it will be easier to start with 2 subs, get them optimized then work on integrating the other 2. I took away the 6db of "cut" in level and played a few demos. Let me just say holy #%$!!, I thought I was impressed before today. Well now it's a whole new ballgame.

WOTW at -5 from reference was visceral like never before. No obvious distortion.

The Incredibles - finally you get a sense of power when Mr. Incredible stops the train and when the little bomb goes off. When he throws the part of the railcar at the guards it's always been a hoot, but now the sheer impact is phenomenal.

Spiderman 2 - I was always a little underwhelmed by the scene where they start the fusion reaction. The deep bass pulses were always good but the rest was a little weak I thought. Not any more. Now when the equipment powers up there is a satisfying clunk with each power up and when the laser beam things fire off it's increeeeeedible at -7.

Happy camper here. Will try to integrate the other 2 as soon as I get time.

I have my F113s on 2 separate 20 amp circuits on my Equitech 7.5Q balanced power unit. I figured it would be easy to just hit the 2 switches on the Equitech to turn the subs on and off. Turns out that 1 of my subs doesn't like that - I'm not sure if it's too much inrush or what but 1 of the subs acted funny each time I've turned the power on the Equitech with the sub power already on. Yesterday I could hear a bit of buzzing from the one sub and see the woofer oscillating back and forth. It did the same thing even after the signal cable was disconnected. After I unplugged the sub
and then restarted it everything was fine. It works fine. Guess I'll have to manually shut down the subs each time - it's a bit of extra exercise I guess. Perhaps I'll try the auto-on function.



Just curious not critical as to why you feel the need to shut off the subs? To conserve power? I've always left every powered sub I've owned from my REL Stentor III before and now the Fathoms I've owned on standby. If it's going to fail it will be from turning them on and off. I'm also running my subs on a dedicated 20amp circuit.

If you leave the subs on all the time but you turn the preamp/ssp off and on there will be transients sent to the subs. Not really a big deal I suppose. I had my rear centre channel on one of the circuits with the subs so it would turn that speaker (with built-in amp) off also. I'll just relocate it to a different circuit.
I used to leave all of my equipment on all the time. I don't get a chance to use the stuff every day anymore so I'll turn stuff off to do my part to reduce energy usage. There'll be a 6-pack of gothams waiting for me in heaven. lol.

i know the title says 13" but seems like all the fathoms have been thrown around in this thread. any word on the f110. i know the last date given was an eta of june 2008.

i know the title says 13" but seems like all the fathoms have been thrown around in this thread. any word on the f110. i know the last date given was an eta of june 2008.

According to Carl Kennedy's blog, the f110 is supposed to be released sometime this month. I noticed on the JL Audio website, that msrp has increased by $100 (satin - $2100, gloss - $2200). Not a huge increase, but when you consider that the f112 (satin) was initially released at $2200, it's quite pricey for a 10" sub. I was really looking forward to its release, but the delays have tempered my enthusiasm somewhat (am now considering a pair of ML Grotto's).

You'd figure after years of edumacation that I'd be able to read. I was going through my Anthem D2 manual again and came across the part where it says that if you have 2 subs and set it to 2 subs in the menu then it automatically reduces the volume of the test tones to calibrate speaker levels. Guess I had forgotten that because I had the subs down 6db. I was always reasonably impressed by the bass from 2 subs but thought that they weren't optimized for the room. Finally played around with phase and fine tuning the frequency response and measuring. I was just using 2 of the 4 subs because I figure it will be easier to start with 2 subs, get them optimized then work on integrating the other 2. I took away the 6db of "cut" in level and played a few demos. Let me just say holy #%$!!, I thought I was impressed before today. Well now it's a whole new ballgame.

WOTW at -5 from reference was visceral like never before. No obvious distortion.

The Incredibles - finally you get a sense of power when Mr. Incredible stops the train and when the little bomb goes off. When he throws the part of the railcar at the guards it's always been a hoot, but now the sheer impact is phenomenal.

Spiderman 2 - I was always a little underwhelmed by the scene where they start the fusion reaction. The deep bass pulses were always good but the rest was a little weak I thought. Not any more. Now when the equipment powers up there is a satisfying clunk with each power up and when the laser beam things fire off it's increeeeeedible at -7.

Happy camper here. Will try to integrate the other 2 as soon as I get time.

nice bogg

was that the front 2 or the rear 2 ?

nice bogg

was that the front 2 or the rear 2 ?

The front 2. They are almost the same distance from my main seat as my main speakers. I played around with the phase while seeing what the frequency response did when the mains and the subs were simultaneously playing bass frequencies (since I run my speakers full range). It was interesting to say the least!

There'll be a 6-pack of gothams waiting for me in heaven. lol.

only 6 ?

:D

only 6 ?

:D

yeah, payback for using my electricity-guzzling Krell FPB600 amp in the past!;)

http://theprofessionalanswer.com/WordPress/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/CK-f112-stack-collage.JPG

So this sounds BAD!

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/8084/dscf1031lz5.th.jpg (http://img291.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dscf1031lz5.jpg)

:mad: :p

Thanks alot JL.

In this case why a few money is not an object speakers used bass towers with 4-6 bass drivers in this(similar) configuration?

According to Carl Kennedy's blog, the f110 is supposed to be released sometime this month. I noticed on the JL Audio website, that msrp has increased by $100 (satin - $2100, gloss - $2200). Not a huge increase, but when you consider that the f112 (satin) was initially released at $2200, it's quite pricey for a 10" sub. I was really looking forward to its release, but the delays have tempered my enthusiasm somewhat (am now considering a pair of ML Grotto's).

yeah watching the price go up on these things is somewhat sickening :(
i envy all of those who can afford to piece together their systems at will!

Interesting video:

http://www.audioholics.com/news/trade-show-coverage/videos/thx-managing-bass-modes

You'd figure after years of edumacation that I'd be able to read. I was going through my Anthem D2 manual again and came across the part where it says that if you have 2 subs and set it to 2 subs in the menu then it automatically reduces the volume of the test tones to calibrate speaker levels. Guess I had forgotten that because I had the subs down 6db. I was always reasonably impressed by the bass from 2 subs but thought that they weren't optimized for the room. Finally played around with phase and fine tuning the frequency response and measuring. I was just using 2 of the 4 subs because I figure it will be easier to start with 2 subs, get them optimized then work on integrating the other 2. I took away the 6db of "cut" in level and played a few demos. Let me just say holy #%$!!, I thought I was impressed before today. Well now it's a whole new ballgame.

WOTW at -5 from reference was visceral like never before. No obvious distortion.

The Incredibles - finally you get a sense of power when Mr. Incredible stops the train and when the little bomb goes off. When he throws the part of the railcar at the guards it's always been a hoot, but now the sheer impact is phenomenal.

Spiderman 2 - I was always a little underwhelmed by the scene where they start the fusion reaction. The deep bass pulses were always good but the rest was a little weak I thought. Not any more. Now when the equipment powers up there is a satisfying clunk with each power up and when the laser beam things fire off it's increeeeeedible at -7.

Happy camper here. Will try to integrate the other 2 as soon as I get time.

You may be over thinking this (IMHO;)). Run each pair as Master/Slave from your dual sub outs on the D2, run ARO and see what you get. If you like two, you're REALLY going to like four.

Just saw the new double 12in'' in one enclosure sub from JL 212? add inside this month's TAS. magazine.
I was wondering is that coming out, and cost....I'm a bit curios about it's abilities.


Djoel

Just saw the new double 12in'' in one enclosure sub from JL 212? add inside this month's TAS. magazine.
I was wondering is that coming out, and cost....I'm a bit curios about it's abilities.


Djoel


Here's some more info on it. MSRP is supposed to be about 6k.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/07/14/jl-audio-releases-info-on-forthcoming-fathom-f212-subwoofer/

They claim it has an updated version of f112 woofers.

Here's some more info on it. MSRP is supposed to be about 6k.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/07/14/jl-audio-releases-info-on-forthcoming-fathom-f212-subwoofer/

They claim it has an updated version of f112 woofers.


Thanks Tony..

yeah I thought I read that some where, the thing about an updated f112 woofer.
Pretty interesting...I guess something has to justified the price, stacking two F112 isn't good enough.;)

Can't wait to hear what someone thinks about the sub, and how many would they buy:p

Djoel

You may be over thinking this (IMHO;)). Run each pair as Master/Slave from your dual sub outs on the D2, run ARO and see what you get. If you like two, you're REALLY going to like four.

Hi Rob, I didn't prewire the room with the option of master/slave since I figured it wouldn't be the way to go (in my room).

Based on measurements in the room, I haven't had to use ARO at all. I've been able to integrate the bass by just adjusting the phase between the front pair and the mains while playing the same bass frequencies. Then I just use a little of the correction in the Anthem to help with a little peak around 70-80hz and voila. I'm now planning to run the second pair of subs and then adjust their phase while keeping the front subs and mains as is.

When I had all 4 subs running the measured frequency response without any eq or adjustments was very flat, although the subs weren't as well integrated with the fronts as the 2 subs are now. The "problem" is that I'm running my speakers fullrange. There is significant interaction between the room response of the mains and subs while playing the same frequency. It just takes some work and can be solved. It might be easier to just crossover and bass manage the system but based on my original measurements it was not necessarily that simple to get right.

I'm sure I'll like 4, but I'm just astonished at how good the 2 currently sound and how loud they can play. My older bro came for a visit. While watching WOTW he looks over at me and says, "my skin is moving". It was niiiiice.

Betcha didn't expect such a lengthy reply! :p

Hi Rob, I didn't prewire the room with the option of master/slave since I figured it wouldn't be the way to go (in my room).

Based on measurements in the room, I haven't had to use ARO at all. I've been able to integrate the bass by just adjusting the phase between the front pair and the mains while playing the same bass frequencies. Then I just use a little of the correction in the Anthem to help with a little peak around 70-80hz and voila. I'm now planning to run the second pair of subs and then adjust their phase while keeping the front subs and mains as is.

When I had all 4 subs running the measured frequency response without any eq or adjustments was very flat, although the subs weren't as well integrated with the fronts as the 2 subs are now. The "problem" is that I'm running my speakers fullrange. There is significant interaction between the room response of the mains and subs while playing the same frequency. It just takes some work and can be solved. It might be easier to just crossover and bass manage the system but based on my original measurements it was not necessarily that simple to get right.

I'm sure I'll like 4, but I'm just astonished at how good the 2 currently sound and how loud they can play. My older bro came for a visit. While watching WOTW he looks over at me and says, "my skin is moving". It was niiiiice.

Betcha didn't expect such a lengthy reply! :p

To bad about your wiring limitation but your approach sounds reasonable and well thought out. I'm just impatient to hear your comments on Quads ;) and liked the speed and convenience of getting two sub pairs quickly functioning with Master/Slave and ARO.

The quad Master config definitely gives you more options and tweekability. I may go there at some point if I get the time. I tried running my mains as full range and encountered some issues with frequency overlap. I'm now using an 80Hz xover for all speakers and it is working well. Seems silly to waste all that Fathom power but your mains look more LF capable than my Revels.

Good to hear you are realizing the benifits of that great audio system you put together.:cool::cool::cool:

Yeah the frequency overlap issues are not the speakers or subs fault, it's just the interaction with the room. I believe it will affect almost any room/speaker setup to a certain extent. I'm a believer in trying to have full-range at all speaker vectors like at Widescreen Review but I've discovered that's easier said than done. I may still try crossing over the speakers to the subs but I'll see what the ARC eq for the D2 brings to the table (it's on order).

http://smiliesftw.com/x/metallicblue.gif...on Quads ..... quad .......http://smiliesftw.com/x/metallicblue.gif.

quads? did anyone say QUADS? :)

Those smilies are awesome.
I saw a description of your quads elsewhere - wow.

When I had all 4 subs running the measured frequency response without any eq or adjustments was very flat, although the subs weren't as well integrated with the fronts as the 2 subs are now.

Your post reminded me about a question regarding setup procedures: If we are running multiple independent subs (two f113's in my case), what is the recommended setup procedure?

I initially used the Velodyne SMS software graph (in my DD-15's) to decide on the best placement for my symmetrically placed f113's. Then, I ran ARO independently on both units, and compared the before and after graphs using the SMS. When I was finished, I turned on both subs to see the response, and noticed a smoother response.

At that point, it occurred to me that perhaps I should have performed the placement exercise with both subs running at the same time. Then, I started to doubt my whole setup methodology. Placement? Master? Slave? ARO?

However, it was late, and I was tired, so I went to bed. Thanks for the memory jolt.

Any input?

Mark

Mark, I found that if I ran the sub measurements separately that the frequency response looked a little ragged. Run as a pair (in mono) for ht led to a smoother response at the starting point before any correction etc... Fortunately my Anthem D2 has some ability to tweak the bass, and with the ARC I'll be able to take it a step further. If you're trying to integrate with 2 channel I think it may be best to do left speaker and sub then right speaker and sub separately.

If I didn't have the Anthem/ARC I'd go with master/slave pairs using ARO, as Rob suggested above.

Let us know how things turn out.

Mark, I found that if I ran the sub measurements separately that the frequency response looked a little ragged. Run as a pair (in mono) for ht led to a smoother response at the starting point before any correction etc... Fortunately my Anthem D2 has some ability to tweak the bass, and with the ARC I'll be able to take it a step further. If you're trying to integrate with 2 channel I think it may be best to do left speaker and sub then right speaker and sub separately.

If I didn't have the Anthem/ARC I'd go with master/slave pairs using ARO, as Rob suggested above.

Let us know how things turn out.

I forgot to mention that I am using them as LFE subs, with an XLR Y splitter at the processor. I am receiving a new processor (Denon AVP-A1) this week which has Audyssey, so that should finish off the smoothing of the curve.

I will have to experiement with Audyssey and ARO once I get everything set up.

Thanks.

Mark

I stand corrected.

RMK was right, 4 of the subs is a whole new ball game. Played around with the phase of the rear pair of F113s tonight. I don't have it perfect yet but MAN-O-MAN is it ever nice with the body and presence that 4 subs gives. Played the usual demos and had a blast. Next step will be to set up the ARC for my D2 and tweak the sound quality. Good times!

I stand corrected.

RMK was right, 4 of the subs is a whole new ball game. Played around with the phase of the rear pair of F113s tonight. I don't have it perfect yet but MAN-O-MAN is it ever nice with the body and presence that 4 subs gives. Played the usual demos and had a blast. Next step will be to set up the ARC for my D2 and tweak the sound quality. Good times!

What exactly was included when you "played around with..." I'm still working on getting my 4 subs to sound like I think they should. I have the front twoo pretty well integrated but including the back two seems to add a bazillion new options. On some scenes, it is scary how great it sounds but on others, it just doesn't seem correct.

Has anyone ever noticed it takes about 15 seconds for the subs to turn on when left in the "Auto" position?

Mark

...the thing about an updated f112 woofer.
Pretty interesting...I guess something has to justified the price, stacking two F112 isn't good enough.;)

Carl Kennedy's blog post on the f212 (http://theprofessionalanswer.com/WordPress/?p=123): "If you would love a pair of Gothams but your checkbook limits you to just one, here is a much better choice than one g213."

glennQ

Carl Kennedy's blog post on the f212 (http://theprofessionalanswer.com/WordPress/?p=123): "If you would love a pair of Gothams but your checkbook limits you to just one, here is a much better choice than one g213."

glennQ



Thanks, will check this out even though I don't have the coins for a second F113, let alone an F212:(


DJOel