What exactly was included when you "played around with..." I'm still working on getting my 4 subs to sound like I think they should. I have the front twoo pretty well integrated but including the back two seems to add a bazillion new options. On some scenes, it is scary how great it sounds but on others, it just doesn't seem correct.

You need a way to measure the changes you make to correlate them with what you hear. I used my Accuphase DG28 1/6 octave eq to generate frequency sweeps and by adjusting the phase of the rear pair I try for a smooth response. I think stuff like TrueRTA and Room EQ Wizard would work at least as well.

I don't have it perfect yet and agree that sometimes it's not right but it's definitely a step in the right direction compared to when I just had all four turned on without playing with phase - at that time I was able to get a pretty smooth response but it surprisingly lacked a bit of impact due to some cancellations. phase adjustments took care of that.

I stand corrected.

RMK was right, 4 of the subs is a whole new ball game. Played around with the phase of the rear pair of F113s tonight. I don't have it perfect yet but MAN-O-MAN is it ever nice with the body and presence that 4 subs gives. Played the usual demos and had a blast. Next step will be to set up the ARC for my D2 and tweak the sound quality. Good times!
:)

I figured once you got a taste, that would be it. For me the quads just keep getting better. I don't think there is any going back from quad subs positioned as per the Harman Paper.

I'll be interested in your take on the ARC EQ. I have run Audssey countless times (it is incredibly tedious to run the 8 position EQ:() with no luck. For lack of a better description, it takes the life out of the system.

I'm thinking of bringing in an Acoustician to test the room and make suggestions. I need to have a professionals opinion and establish a performance base line ... I am tired of the trial and error method.

Rob,
I know what you mean about the trial and error. I'm a "set and forget" kind of guy but I am very fussy about getting it right first. I will have Richard Rives from Rives Audio come up and tweak it once I've done all I can and hopefully that will be it. From what I've read, Mark Seaton would be a good guy to get in to help set up the subs. Costs less than 1 sub to get him and I suspect it would be money well spent.

I'll let you know how the Anthem ARC works out, other people seem to love it.

Rob,
I know what you mean about the trial and error. I'm a "set and forget" kind of guy but I am very fussy about getting it right first. I will have Richard Rives from Rives Audio come up and tweak it once I've done all I can and hopefully that will be it. From what I've read, Mark Seaton would be a good guy to get in to help set up the subs. Costs less than 1 sub to get him and I suspect it would be money well spent.

I'll let you know how the Anthem ARC works out, other people seem to love it.

It is interesting that you mention Mark Seaton. He is a little busy at the moment but a friend of his, Keith Yates is local to me and may be interested in helping me with the room. Keith is a believer in doing the room right first so that you optimize whatever equipment you put in it. He is also a big proponent of EQ, but he prefers professional rather than commercial products. He mentioned the Dolby Lake unit as a good option.

I'm looking forward to your posts on the ARC results and the final tweaks by Richard Rives.:cool:

Guys, I need a little advice. For a fairly large room (cannot remember exact dimensions) would you recommend a single F-113 or dual F-112's? Thanks for the help!

Guys, I need a little advice. For a fairly large room (cannot remember exact dimensions) would you recommend a single F-113 or dual F-112's? Thanks for the help!
The F113 has slightly (1 Hz), deeper extension than the F112 (-3 db of 18 Hz for the F113 vs. 19 Hz for the F112), and about 3 dB more total output. If you co-locate dual F112's, you get 6 dB of additional output. If you separate them, you get 3 dB of additional output and flatter FR across more seats.

In general, two F112's will have similar or slightly more total output than an F113, but *slightly* less extansion. If you place them separately, they'll provide flatter FR across more seats. Also, each individual F112 box will be smaller than an F113, but the total combined size of the dual F112's will be greater. They'll also cost more than a single F113.

The F112's also have better output at the "high" end of subwoofer output. The F112's have a -3 dB point of 150 Hz vs. 127 Hz for the F113's. If upper bass response is important to you, the F112's will be the better choice.

I have dual F112's, as does Manville Smith, (just for the sake of full disclosure.)

Craig

Craig, thanks for the thorough reply. If I go with dual F-112's they will not be co-located. One would flank each side of my system. Seems like it will be a tough decision...

Buy one F113 now and another one later!

Buy one F113 now and another one later!


That's my vote.

Buy the first f113...you can add another later. In the end two f113's beast two f112's. ;)

Does 1 Gotham best 2 Fathoms?

Does 1 Gotham best 2 Fathoms?

looks wise, yes

SPL/performance wise, everyone from JL says: no (for Fathom 212) negligible (for F113's)

hmm one have 2 x F113 and thinking on having 2 of F112 what would be best 113 in front and 112 in back or oposite ? Not going for max spl but audio quality.
Or should all subwoofers be same 4 x 113 instead of 2x113/2x112 ?

Does 1 Gotham best 2 Fathoms?

You may find this post in another forum of interest... http://www.dvdplaza.fi/forums/showthread.php?t=65823

This provides distortion data on the Fathom F113. Unfortunately no data is available for the Gotham. You can see however that distortion goes up drastically with increased output. So, if you can use two or more of a particular woofer system each can operate at a lower level thus giving you much less distortion.

Monte

Guys, I need a little advice. For a fairly large room (cannot remember exact dimensions) would you recommend a single F-113 or dual F-112's? Thanks for the help!

Given the two choices, I would opt for dual F-112s. I was pleasantly surprised how much adding a second F-113 (not co-localized) evened out my front sound stage...no longer directional.

hmm one have 2 x F113 and thinking on having 2 of F112 what would be best 113 in front and 112 in back or oposite ? Not going for max spl but audio quality.
Or should all subwoofers be same 4 x 113 instead of 2x113/2x112 ?

Not sure it matters. I am running dual F112's in the front and dual F113's in the back of my 3600'^3 room. Each pair is run in master/slave mode with ARO engaged. They present as a single mono sub to a Velo SMS-1 and I have done some additional EQ with the SMS-1 (all cuts). My results are spectacular from an LFE standpoint and blend very well with my other speakers. Others have taken a different approach and I'm sure have as good or better results.

You may find this post in another forum of interest... http://www.dvdplaza.fi/forums/showthread.php?t=65823

This provides distortion data on the Fathom F113. Unfortunately no data is available for the Gotham. You can see however that distortion goes up drastically with increased output. So, if you can use two or more of a particular woofer system each can operate at a lower level thus giving you much less distortion.

Monte


Looks like they distort rather much in those measurements.

I am going to start with a single F-113 over the dual F-112's. I figure when the funds permit I can add another F-113. In the end dual F-113's are better than dual F-112's, right? :rolleyes:

If it's a fairly large room I don't think you'll be sorry that you spent the extra bucks for the extra headroom.

I know that the F-113 has some nice calibration features on it but I also have the SMS-1. I am wondering how much you guys do on the sub and how much on the SMS?

For some reason true sub integration seems to be the toughest facet of this hobby for me...

I know that the F-113 has some nice calibration features on it but I also have the SMS-1. I am wondering how much you guys do on the sub and how much on the SMS?

For some reason true sub integration seems to be the toughest facet of this hobby for me...
I have an SMS-1 also. It's sitting on the shelf unused. Nor do I use ARO. I have recently installed new bass traps in the front corners and across the front ceiling. I have also installed a pre/pro with Audyssey MultEQ XT. Between these two things, my dual F112's sound better than they ever have.

Prior to that, I had run ARO and then used the SMS-1 to "fine tune" the response from there. It sounded good, and definitely better than no EQ, but the Audyssey system is better than both put together. (IME)

Craig

I know that the F-113 has some nice calibration features on it but I also have the SMS-1. I am wondering how much you guys do on the sub and how much on the SMS?

Hey David
I love the way the F113's ARO worked in my space, but I thought (felt )something was a missing..SO I purchased a SMS1, and love the results I got, the bass seemed tighter, and bit more defined, not to mention your seeing what's going on with your room in real time.:)

For some reason true sub integration seems to be the toughest facet of this hobby for me...

Yup same over here, not my strongest skill but the Fathom ARO is so easy to work with, and the bass quality is pristine you wont regrate the beautiful low end sounds:cool:

In some time I'll definitely be getting a second F113 in my smallish 14 1/2'ft by 18 ft by 9'ft high ceiling , but I'm going to have to kick out my GF first:p


Djoel

I know that the F-113 has some nice calibration features on it but I also have the SMS-1. I am wondering how much you guys do on the sub and how much on the SMS?

For some reason true sub integration seems to be the toughest facet of this hobby for me...

I just started using the ARC room eq in my Anthem D2 processor and must say it has done a fabulous job with the F113s (and the rest of the speakers). I previously spent a lot of time futzing with measurements and making adjustments. With the ARC you do some basic setup of phase etc... and let ARC work its magic. Highly recommended!

I intend to mate the f112 with a pair of Sierra-1s in a living room. Could this sub play nicely with the sierras or is it overkill for a relatively small room and these fronts?

thank you.

The F112 works great with the Sierras. That's the exact setup I'm running.

I am going to start with a single F-113 over the dual F-112's. I figure when the funds permit I can add another F-113. In the end dual F-113's are better than dual F-112's, right? :rolleyes:

Nice choice, I went that route also. But beware :eek: it wasn't long before I couldn't hold out on the getting the second ;)

Nice choice, I went that route also. But beware :eek: it wasn't long before I couldn't hold out on the getting the second ;)

It took me two months before I gave in.

Not sure it matters. I am running dual F112's in the front and dual F113's in the back of my 3600'^3 room. Each pair is run in master/slave mode with ARO engaged. They present as a single mono sub to a Velo SMS-1 and I have done some additional EQ with the SMS-1 (all cuts). My results are spectacular from an LFE standpoint and blend very well with my other speakers. Others have taken a different approach and I'm sure have as good or better results.

Mine processor has 3 sub outs, could have F112 in front doing LR and main speakers as small, then 2xF113 LFE only master/slave in back... or oposite I have B&W 802D as main speakers

Mine processor has 3 sub outs, could have F112 in front doing LR and main speakers as small, then 2xF113 LFE only master/slave in back... or oposite I have B&W 802D as main speakers


I like your first option but you can always try them both.:)

I am a big fan of the F112. In fact if I had it to do over again, I would have 4 F112's. The F113's minimal advantage at the low end is more than offset buy the F112's additional extension in the higher frequencies. When you consider size and cost into the equation, the F112 is the sweet spot product of the JL line (IMHO).

The F112 works great with the Sierras. That's the exact setup I'm running.

xcjago:

I have seen your posts throughout these forums. I just purchased the f112. And, the f112 that I just purchased was the first one that I had ever seen. I know most prefer the f113. (I read both the f112 and f113 threads in their entirety before making my purchase). I am running my fathom with Vienna Acoustics speakers and so far completely blown away. But would be interested, at your convenience, in meeting and seeing your set up and receiving any insights you would be willing to provide regarding the f112. I grew up in the Lomita area and currently reside in Orange County. If this works on your end please let me know.

Thanks.
Ese'

I intend to mate the f112 with a pair of Sierra-1s in a living room. Could this sub play nicely with the sierras or is it overkill for a relatively small room and these fronts?

thank you.

I'm using 3 PB Sierra-1's across the front, HTM-200's for surrounds, with a F112 pulling sub duty. F112 integrates seamlessly with my Sierra's.

I have one F113.
What are the opinions of putting it under my center channel in between my front McIntosh LS360's speakers?

My Room is 20x20. Listening position is the back wall.

Should I set the LS360's Front speakers to small??

Thanks

hey guys, does anyone have the Dark Knight soundtrack? if you do, and you have some testing equipment, can you tell me how low in frequency the pulsating waves of bass are at 3:25 seconds into the first track, Why So Serious?

thanks

hey guys, does anyone have the Dark Knight soundtrack? if you do, and you have some testing equipment, can you tell me how low in frequency the pulsating waves of bass are at 3:25 seconds into the first track, Why So Serious?

thanks

I answered your post earlier. I'm not sure where the answer went or if it was deleted or what. Anyways, I bought the track and did an RTA on it and the segment around 3:25 is surely chalk full of bass. About +10db from 7hz to 25hz and pretty much nothing in the upper frequencies. When I played it initially on my computer speakers it was like the song went silent at 3:25, my computer speakers being completely unable to produce any of the frequencies during that part.

wow, i knew it was quite low. during that passage we could speak to one another in our normal voices and hear one another without an issue all while the house seemed to be rocking off of the foundation.

I have one F113.
What are the opinions of putting it under my center channel in between my front McIntosh LS360's speakers?

My Room is 20x20. Listening position is the back wall.

Should I set the LS360's Front speakers to small??

Thanks

That'll be a tough room. I hope your ceilings aren't 10'! :eek: The listening position against the back wall will make the room even tougher to deal with. If you can move it forward to about 2/3 of the room dimension, that would be a much better spot for bass reproduction.

You could certainly place the F113 underneath the CC. However, there are a couple of considerations:

1. If you are placing the CC directly on top of the sub, make sure you place some dampening material between the sub and the CC. The sub doesn't vibrate much, but even a little vibration could cause noise, or worse yet, scratching of the finishes.

2. A midwall subwoofer location, (assuming your CC is placed midwall), is often not a great spot for it. That location may or may not be ideal in terms of bass reproduction in your room. I would try it in as many locations as are feasible in your room, then pick the one that sounds best at the primary listening position. Then use ARO to tame the single worst resonance. The other method you can use is to place the sub on the couch at the primary listening position and the place yourself in all the possible subwoofer placements. IOW, crawl around your room and see where the sub sounds best. Place it *there*. If it sounds best under the CC, you're good to go.

3. You will want to take into consideration the height of your CC. If it is placed on top of the sub, it may be a little too low for good dispersion. You want the CC as close to ear level as possible and as close to the same height as the other speakers as possible, (since the main speakers tweeters should be at ear level, these two heights should be the same.) If it ends up being too low, you can improve things a bit by aiming it up at your ears.

4. Investigate bass traps. A room with your dimensions will have some significant resonances, (frequencies where the reflected sound will add to or reduce the level of the original sound.) These will cause significant peaks and dips in the bass response of your room. By absorbing the reflected sound, these peaks and dips are reduced, letting you hear more of the sound of your speakers and sub and less of the sound of your room. Here are a few good links to makers of bass traps:
www.gikacoustics.com
www.readytraps.com
www.realtraps.com

Good luck. It sounds like you have the makings of a great system. You've spent a lot of money on speakers and a subwoofer. Spend some time setting it up and optimizing it.

Craig

That'll be a tough room. I hope your ceilings aren't 10'! :eek: The listening position against the back wall will make the room even tougher to deal with. If you can move it forward to about 2/3 of the room dimension, that would be a much better spot for bass reproduction.

You could certainly place the F113 underneath the CC. However, there are a couple of considerations:

1. If you are placing the CC directly on top of the sub, make sure you place some dampening material between the sub and the CC. The sub doesn't vibrate much, but even a little vibration could cause noise, or worse yet, scratching of the finishes.

2. A midwall subwoofer location, (assuming your CC is placed midwall), is often not a great spot for it. That location may or may not be ideal in terms of bass reproduction in your room. I would try it in as many locations as are feasible in your room, then pick the one that sounds best at the primary listening position. Then use ARO to tame the single worst resonance. The other method you can use is to place the sub on the couch at the primary listening position and the place yourself in all the possible subwoofer placements. IOW, crawl around your room and see where the sub sounds best. Place it *there*. If it sounds best under the CC, you're good to go.

3. You will want to take into consideration the height of your CC. If it is placed on top of the sub, it may be a little too low for good dispersion. You want the CC as close to ear level as possible and as close to the same height as the other speakers as possible, (since the main speakers tweeters should be at ear level, these two heights should be the same.) If it ends up being too low, you can improve things a bit by aiming it up at your ears.

4. Investigate bass traps. A room with your dimensions will have some significant resonances, (frequencies where the reflected sound will add to or reduce the level of the original sound.) These will cause significant peaks and dips in the bass response of your room. By absorbing the reflected sound, these peaks and dips are reduced, letting you hear more of the sound of your speakers and sub and less of the sound of your room. Here are a few good links to makers of bass traps:
www.gikacoustics.com
www.readytraps.com
www.realtraps.com

Good luck. It sounds like you have the makings of a great system. You've spent a lot of money on speakers and a subwoofer. Spend some time setting it up and optimizing it.

Craig
CraigJohn:

A 20 X 20 room? Aren't square rooms the death knell (sic) of subs or bass? Would you comment on this.

Thanks.
Ese'

CraigJohn:

A 20 X 20 room? Aren't square rooms the death knell (sic) of subs or bass? Would you comment on this.

Thanks.
Ese'


Yes they are considered bad dimensions for sound payback. Standing waves?

hey guys, does anyone have the Dark Knight soundtrack? if you do, and you have some testing equipment, can you tell me how low in frequency the pulsating waves of bass are at 3:25 seconds into the first track, Why So Serious?

thanks


Thanks, it was really cool track and rather good low bass.

Thanks Craig John for taking the time to answer!

My room is 20x20x8 would adding a 2nd F113 benefit me For Home Theater use, or would it be only a modest gian or even over kill for the expense?

Would (2) F113 subs overpower the room when I am listenning to music both 2 channel and multi channel SACD's??

Thanks for any opinions!

Thats a medium size room, 2 - F113 would be an amazing gain in a more balanced room response, I highly doubt that you would regret that upgrade.... Nothing better then the balance of duals, ahhh unless you want to jump up to Quads... :)

No such thing as overkill....

CraigJohn:

A 20 X 20 room? Aren't square rooms the death knell (sic) of subs or bass? Would you comment on this.

Thanks.
Ese'
While a square room can present some bigger challenges than a rectangular room, I wouldn't describe it as a "death knell" of bass. In a perfectly square room, the axial modes of the 2 equal dimensions will hit on the same frequency. However, they won't be propagated the same in all positions within the room. There will be positions within the room where there will be reinforcements and cancellations. These will change depending on the position of the subwoofer in relation to the 2 equal dimensions. If you place the sub in a corner it will interact similarly with both equal dimensions. This will cause larger reinforcements and cancellations. If you place it at a 1/3 wall location it will interact differently with one wall than the other. It will still interact with both walls, but the reflections will hit at different parts of the positive or negative part of the wave, and this will vary by frequency, (i.e., at different wavelengths.)

These changes are also dependent on the position within the room where they are measured, (or heard.) At one location there could be a huge 30 dB peak at 80 Hz and another huge cancellation at 55 Hz. Two feet away, those could both be gone and there could other peaks and nulls. The key in a room with dimensions of similar sizes (or *any* room for that matter), is to try to find locations for both the sub and the listener where the peaks and nulls are the least.

In addition, bass traps can reduce the strongest reflected waves, (those coming from the corners of the room), and reduce the levels of the peaks and nulls. Finally, some mild EQ can further reduce the peaks, (although EQ can't really do much for nulls.

My room is 20x20x8 would adding a 2nd F113 benefit me For Home Theater use, or would it be only a modest gian or even over kill for the expense?

Would (2) F113 subs overpower the room when I am listenning to music both 2 channel and multi channel SACD's??

Thanks for any opinions!

Virtually all rooms and systems benefit from the bass being driven from two different sources. If you place the two subs together, (stacked or right next to each other), you'll realize a 6 dB increase in output. This means you can turn each sub down 6 dB in level and still have the same total output. Each sub will output *less* distortion at the lower level and the combined "system" will sound better.

If you place the two subs separately, you'll realize a 3 dB gain in output, but you'll also realize better in-room frequency response. Two subs in different locations will interact with the room differently and smooth out the peaks and nulls all over the room. It can be difficult to place the subs, because their different arrival times will make them out of phase at the listening position. Subs with infinitely variable phase adjustment make it easier to correct for this. The easiest thing to do is to place them so they are equidistant from the primary listening position.

On a final note, the best enhancement I have found for bass response is the Audyssey system. It measures multiple locations within the listening area and then sets both frequency and time based filters to improve not only the frequency response but the time response of the room. It reduces "ringing", resonance and reverbation time. These can do as much to muddy up bass response as frequency peaks and dips.

A combination of multiple subs, proper sub position, correct phasing, proper listening position, proper Bass Management settings, good bass trapping and mild EQ can make even a square room sound quite good for bass.

<QUOTE>
On a final note, the best enhancement I have found for bass response is the Audyssey system. It measures multiple locations...

Craig John:

Are you including the ARO calibration that is part of the fathom? In other words, do you think that the Audyssey is better than the fathom ARO calibration?

Thanks.
Ese'

<QUOTE>
On a final note, the best enhancement I have found for bass response is the Audyssey system. It measures multiple locations...

Craig John:

Are you including the ARO calibration that is part of the fathom? In other words, do you think that the Audyssey is better than the fathom ARO calibration?

Thanks.
Ese'
ARO is one band of EQ and it is frequency domain only. Also, it only measures one spot in the room. If it EQ's that one spot to reduce one peak, it also reduces the level of that frequency at other positions where there is no peak.

Audyssey measures the response at multiple locations, 8 in the MultEQ XT product and up to 32 in the Pro product. Audyssey EQ's in both the frequency domain and the time domain. Finally, where ARO can only EQ one frequency band, Audyssey can EQ as many as 64 in the subwoofer channel.
http://www.audyssey.com/technology/multEQ_products.html

So, yes, I think Audyssey is a much better EQ system than ARO. Having said that, if you just have one, large peak in your room, then running ARO will improve that significantly. If you also have Audyssey, then running ARO *before* running Audyssey can make Audyssey's job easier and make the final result even better.

Craig

Thats a medium size room, 2 - F113 would be an amazing gain in a more balanced room response, I highly doubt that you would regret that upgrade.... Nothing better then the balance of duals, ahhh unless you want to jump up to Quads... :)

No such thing as overkill....

Hi today I put a deposit on 2 JL Audio fathom 113 subs which are replacing my 2 focal profile 908 SW. From what i've been reading and people impressions these subs have pos reviews all round. Looking forward in having a listen.

There is one question i would like to ask which would be better for me to use the Audyssey implemented in my pre-amp or the calibration thats implemented in the Fathoms?

Got my F-113 setup and pretty dialed in over the weekend. Very, very clean bass :D I owned one in the past but due not remember being this impressed with it. Not quite the same output as the SVS PB-13 Ultra but certainly faster and clearer, less decay. I still need to do some more tweaking on my SMS-1 as I feel I have a bit too much DB gain on the 20 hz region, and I am not that comfortable with bumping it up there. But maybe I am concerned over nothing? I am a bit of a novice with the SMS-1. It is certainly the flatest response I have had with any sub in my room yet. Now I just need to add another... ;)

btw, I had it set to variable while I was adjusting trim levels. Is that where it is recommended to leave it know that everything is dialed in? or am I supposed to switch it back? Thanks.

"Got my F-113 setup and pretty dialed in over the weekend. Very, very clean bass I owned one in the past but due not remember being this impressed with it."

What is your room size?
Also what is your crossover and Gain set to??

My room is 20x20x8 and my Gain is pretty high, using my AVR controls.
Thats why I am thinking of 2 F113 subs. Then my wife complains and I re-think it.
I turn it up, to just block her out!!

My ELF is at 10:00 (position)

There is one question i would like to ask which would be better for me to use the Audyssey implemented in my pre-amp or the calibration thats implemented in the Fathoms?
See the post directly above yours.

Craig

My room is 20x20x8 and my Gain is pretty high, using my AVR controls.
Thats why I am thinking 2 F113 subs. Then my wife complains and I rethink it.
Then I turn it up, to block her out!!

My ELF is at 10:00

Reminds of an excellent quote...
"The couch was pulsing, the coffee table was moving, Wife came home with 20 minutes left in the movie.... The look of horror on that womans face when she walked in that door http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/images/smilies/mad.gif We could see her mouth moving, but no sound came out." -Nimrod

i have to ask and it might seem silly to some but once you have done the ARO, do you still have to muck around with the phase and all the other selections? Im assuming that once the ARO is set you don't have to touch anything.

i have to ask and it might seem silly to some but once you have done the ARO, do you still have to muck around with the phase and all the other selections? Im assuming that once the ARO is set you don't have to touch anything.


Uhhh Yes you have to.

ARO will flatten the sub's response in relation to the sitting position(where the mic should be placed when running the ARO set up).

Phase and level must be set manually.The other sections...as you call it also have to be set manually. ARO is here to compenate for a major non linearity in the resonse. It is not a fully automated setup.

Uhhh Yes you have to.

ARO will flatten the sub's response in relation to the sitting position(where the mic should be placed when running the ARO set up).

Phase and level must be set manually.The other sections...as you call it also have to be set manually. ARO is here to compenate for a major non linearity in the resonse. It is not a fully automated setup.

Thankyou, im kinda new to this subwooer calibration tool.

Uhhh Yes you have to.

ARO will flatten the sub's response in relation to the sitting position(where the mic should be placed when running the ARO set up).

Phase and level must be set manually.The other sections...as you call it also have to be set manually. ARO is here to compenate for a major non linearity in the resonse. It is not a fully automated setup.
Agreed. In fact, I would set the phase *before* running ARO.

Also, the level setting is used to ensure you have a good level match between the speakers and the sub. If you have a receiver/pre/pro with Bass Management, I would set the level to "Reference" and control the level at the receiver/pre/pro.

Craig

Does anyone like the sound with the ARO in bypass mode.
Does the ARO take away some dynamics, for say 5.1 Movie tracks?

ARO does nothing to limit dynamics... it simply flattens the primary peak in response if there is one. This may sound like a loss of bass energy but it is a good loss of energy that can be compensated for by raising the overall sub level, if necessary.

ARO does nothing to limit dynamics... it simply flattens the primary peak in response if there is one. This may sound like a loss of bass energy but it is a good loss of energy that can be compensated for by raising the overall sub level, if necessary.


+1

Oh there's energy still there after I calibrated mine. No need to raise the level anymore! :D I can feel and hear the energy of these two subs outside when I play the right disc loud enough.

My room is 20x20x8 would adding a 2nd F113 benefit me For Home Theater use, or would it be only a modest gian or even over kill for the expense?

Would (2) F113 subs overpower the room when I am listenning to music both 2 channel and multi channel SACD's??

Thanks for any opinions!


Go for it. I have a room that is 12x18x8 room and I have 2 subs now and soon 4 subs. I don't think you will regret it.

+1

Oh there's energy still there after I calibrated mine. No need to raise the level anymore! :D I can feel and hear the energy of these two subs outside when I play the right disc loud enough.

looking forward in getting my two very soon.:)

Greetings

My Fathom f113 arrived yesterday. I am eager to set the beast up but had two quick questions.

1. I am planning on using it with a Marantz AV8003 via XLR connection. Is there a particular brand/model XLR cable you guys suggest for use with the subwoofer or will it not make a huge difference since the cable is only transmitting bass. I need at least 15ft of cable. I use 1m Kimber Kable Silver Streak XLRs between my Pre-Amp and Amp if that helps any...

2. The f113 will be placed about 15ft away from the nearest power outlet. Is using an extension power cable acceptable or should I replace the power cord? If I should replace it, any suggestions?

Thanks in advance!

2 No problem with a extension, go for it.

2 No problem with a extension, go for it.

Thanks! Anyone have thoughts on number 1?

Hi guys. I'm currently running a SVS B4+ sub powered by a 2100 watt bridged amp rated at 4ohms. I dont get any issues with the Bad Robot start but what I do get happens later in the movie. The scene in question is when the group are walking up the street and the creatures foot comes down and the army blasts the crap out of it. One bit in particular where I hear the rattle from the sub is when the guy fires his bazzooka and it hits the creature then there's a really low rumble and thats then the rattle occurs. I'm using the Blu-Ray version with the True-HD track throught the Panasonic BD-30 and an Onyko SR-805 receiver for pre-amp duty. System has been calibrated by an HAA professional 1 month ago so all levels are correct. This is the first time I've heard a rattle form this sub. Anyone else encounted this with that scene?

Hi guys. I'm currently running a SVS B4+ sub ...This is the first time I've heard a rattle form this sub. Anyone else encounted this with that scene?
Why would you ask this question is a thread about the JL Audio F113? Try the "Official SVS Support Thread":
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=737143&highlight=official+svs+support+thread
or start a new one.

Why would you ask this question is a thread about the JL Audio F113? Try the "Official SVS Support Thread":

Umm because you guys were discussing the Cloverfield disc problem maybe?? But your right I will post my problem in the appropriate section. Wouldn't wish to derail this thread and bring the server down.

Umm because you guys were discussing the Cloverfield disc problem maybe?? But your right I will post my problem in the appropriate section. Wouldn't wish to derail this thread and bring the server down.
It's not about bandwidth. It's about asking the question of the appropriate people. A group of JL Audio guys probably can't help you the an SVS B4+. You'll get better responses in the threads I suggested.

It's about asking the question of the appropriate people
Yes I understand that. But at the time of reading the Cloverfield posts I thougnt it appropriate but I guess I'm in the wrong place np. Anyway rather than go around in circles why dont people with the Fathom try the scene I've mentioned it seems to go lower than the Bad Robot part. The scene is the army taking on the creature for the first time and guy fires Bazooka 2 big bass hits within 3secs.

Why would you ask this question is a thread about the JL Audio F113? Try the "Official SVS Support Thread":
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=737143&highlight=official+svs+support+thread
or start a new one.


:rolleyes:

give him a break, it was ontopic.

Yes I understand that. But at the time of reading the Cloverfield posts I thougnt it appropriate but I guess I'm in the wrong place np. Anyway rather than go around in circles why dont people with the Fathom try the scene I've mentioned it seems to go lower than the Bad Robot part. The scene is the army taking on the creature for the first time and guy fires Bazooka 2 big bass hits within 3secs.


you're sub is a 4th order system and evokes a very different kind of behavior on the active driver, so while perhaps this movie contains many passages of deep content, its not necessarily the deepest contest that will hurt your subwoofer. It will be the case on the JL because its a 2nd order sealed system therefore execution always increases until a filter takes over. I'm pretty sure JL tested their amp and filters (they might even have a limiter too) to make sure that no matter what was thrown at it, it wont bottom out. However, some times there are manufacturing defects and voice coil get misalignment and even tho the driver might not bottom, it the inside of the former might rub against the t-yoke and make a funny noise.

in your case, the point of highest excursion is actually not the deepest bass, but it occurs above that point, also occurs again below the tuning point and ideally a filter is in place to limit it such that both peak excursions are systematical about resonance. For for example, if your tuning point is 20Hz, the driver might peak around 26Hz and then again at 16Hz. -Thats jsut an example. So its not unusual that your subwoofer have problems with different scenes in the movie than the JL subwoofer.

So you have to worry about 2 critical frequencies, SVS has 4 ports, i dont know how many you have open, but that will change where the active driver peaks, and you also have to consider the filter you have on that system. I dont believe SVS includes an active EQ so i'm guessing you're using your own high pass filter? You have to change that filter every time you add or remove a port plug in order to make sure driver excursion symmetry is maintained about system resonance.

sounds like cloverfield is a bass heavy movie, it is not far fetched that it makes a lot of subwoofers cave.

you're sub is a 4th order system and evokes a very different kind of behavior on the active driver, so while perhaps this movie contains many passages of deep content, its not necessarily the deepest contest that will hurt your subwoofer. It will be the case on the JL because its a 2nd order sealed system therefore execution always increases until a filter takes over. I'm pretty sure JL tested their amp and filters (they might even have a limiter too) to make sure that no matter what was thrown at it, it wont bottom out. However, some times there are manufacturing defects and voice coil get misalignment and even tho the driver might not bottom, it the inside of the former might rub against the t-yoke and make a funny noise.

in your case, the point of highest excursion is actually not the deepest bass, but it occurs above that point, also occurs again below the tuning point and ideally a filter is in place to limit it such that both peak excursions are systematical about resonance. For for example, if your tuning point is 20Hz, the driver might peak around 26Hz and then again at 16Hz. -Thats jsut an example. So its not unusual that your subwoofer have problems with different scenes in the movie than the JL subwoofer.

So you have to worry about 2 critical frequencies, SVS has 4 ports, i dont know how many you have open, but that will change where the active driver peaks, and you also have to consider the filter you have on that system. I dont believe SVS includes an active EQ so i'm guessing you're using your own high pass filter? You have to change that filter every time you add or remove a port plug in order to make sure driver excursion symmetry is maintained about system resonance.

sounds like cloverfield is a bass heavy movie, it is not far fetched that it makes a lot of subwoofers cave.

That's why im replacing my 2 focal profile 908 sw for the 2 Fathom 113.The focal just don't cut it.

Umm because you guys were discussing the Cloverfield disc problem maybe?? But your right I will post my problem in the appropriate section. Wouldn't wish to derail this thread and bring the server down.

It's ok... the reason your sub sounds like its rattling is because the LFE signal is horribly distorted at the very beginning of the movie. Your sub is doing nothing wrong. I made a post about it a few months ago...

I will repost the info here, so you don't have to go digging for it again.

Ok, folks… here’s the scoop on the Cloverfield opening “Bad Robot” sequence.

Eric Krumme (one of our engineers) and I tested an f112 and an f113 with the scene in question and turned the sub level up pretty high, with excursion exceeding 2 inches on the last drum hit. They both made a gurgly, rattly noise from the third to the last drum hit.

We also happened to have some competitors’ subwoofers laying around. A Revel B15, A Velodyne SPL 12, a little James sub and a Paradigm ported sub (don’t remember the model number). We played the “Bad Robot” sequence and guess what… drum roll, please… THEY ALL RATTLED in a very similar fashion. The high frequency content of the rattle varied (probably due to different LP filtering or woofer inductances), but they all did it to about the same extent. A photo of the subs we tested is available at the link at the bottom of this post.

So, unless all of us manufacturers have designed the same problem into all of these subs, it’s likely the noise is actually in the signal to begin with. To verify, we recorded the LFE output of the Denon receiver (with all satellite channels set to “small” so all the bass was routed to the LFE channel) to a wave file (available at link at bottom of this post)

And then we looked at the waveform graphically in an editing program (the image on the linked page is of the last drum hit, the loudest one). As you will see, there is a bunch of higher frequency garbage in the signal, confirming the theory I proposed after running tests in my home.

In other words, if you hear a rattly noise during this intro sequence, the Fathom (or any other subwoofer) is only reproducing the signal being fed to it and is not defective… In this case, the recording engineers were defective.

LINK TO PHOTO GRAPH and WAV FILE: http://www.jlaudio.com/home/cloverfield/

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

msmith_JL

I was curious, if you read the Gotham's review in Abolute Sound, and what you thought of his set-up procedures using the ARO?

After you set your AVR sub levels high.
Can you also boost the F113 sub volume (variable) to a higher number also?

Would this combination increase the total output of the F113?
What are the pro's and con's??

Thanks

Hi today I put a deposit on 2 JL Audio fathom 113 subs which are replacing my 2 focal profile 908 SW. From what i've been reading and people impressions these subs have pos reviews all round. Looking forward in having a listen.

There is one question i would like to ask which would be better for me to use the Audyssey implemented in my pre-amp or the calibration thats implemented in the Fathoms?

Franin that is fantastic news indeed. You'll get to hear them before I do I'm sure!

Cheers

Blade

Franin that is fantastic news indeed. You'll get to hear them before I do I'm sure!

Cheers

Blade

Hey Blade,

Mate quite excited, I was looking at the Velodyne but these Subs seem to be the way to go.Have to wait a month though, they asked if I wanted there Demos but not intrested at all.Prefer the new ones.:)

I asked this a few posts back but got no response:

What brand/model XLR cable are you guys using to connect the Fathom to the Pre-Amp? I need something that is at least 4.5 meters. Will a high-quality cable make a difference since only bass is being transmitted?

I asked this a few posts back but got no response:

What brand/model XLR cable are you guys using to connect the Fathom to the Pre-Amp? I need something that is at least 4.5 meters. Will a high-quality cable make a difference since only bass is being transmitted?

I use a Blue Jeans Cable subwoofer cable.

I asked this a few posts back but got no response:

What brand/model XLR cable are you guys using to connect the Fathom to the Pre-Amp? I need something that is at least 4.5 meters. Will a high-quality cable make a difference since only bass is being transmitted?

Thats debatable some say it does some say it doesn't

I use a Blue Jeans Cable subwoofer cable.

ditto

It may or may not make a difference to the sound, but they are well built and priced right.

I use Mogami cable with Neutrik connectors. Good quality, affordable.

msmith_JL

I was curious, if you read the Gotham's review in Abolute Sound, and what you thought of his set-up procedures using the ARO?

To each, his own, I guess. I'll leave it at that.

I asked this a few posts back but got no response:

What brand/model XLR cable are you guys using to connect the Fathom to the Pre-Amp? I need something that is at least 4.5 meters. Will a high-quality cable make a difference since only bass is being transmitted?

I made my own XLR cables. instead of 1-1,1/2 meter XLR from shop, one can buy 100 meter signal cable + 6 pairs of XLR connectors (male/female) for same price...

To each, his own, I guess. I'll leave it at that.

JL:

Along the same lines as above. Would appreciate your comments on the following. I have a JL sub--a fathom. I note within the manual that JL Audio recommends setting speakers to "small" for bass management when running a sub.

My main speakers and center channel are Vienna Acoustics. For bass management they recommend that the speakers be set to "large" noting that the Viennas are designed for bass reproduction. My mains go down to about 30hz.

What are your thoughts on bass management with a fathom and Vienna Acoustics, if any, as regards to setting the speakers to "small" or "large"?

Thank you.

Ese'

JL:

Along the same lines as above. Would appreciate your comments on the following. I have a JL sub--a fathom. I note within the manual that JL Audio recommends setting speakers to "small" for bass management when running a sub.

My main speakers and center channel are Vienna Acoustics. For bass management they recommend that the speakers be set to "large" noting that the Viennas are designed for bass reproduction. My mains go down to about 30hz.

What are your thoughts on bass management with a fathom and Vienna Acoustics, if any, as regards to setting the speakers to "small" or "large"?

Thank you.

Ese'

I would still recommend setting the mains to 'small'. It's desirable to have all the bass energy coming from the more capable low frequency system, and it will make your mains sound cleaner and open up the soundstage.

Try it both ways and see what you think.

I would still recommend setting the mains to 'small'. It's desirable to have all the bass energy coming from the more capable low frequency system, and it will make your mains sound cleaner and open up the soundstage.

Try it both ways and see what you think.
hi Manville....long time no speak. Hope all is well with you, Carl, and gang. Trying to get another tour together sometime, but I'll touch base with you on that.

regarding the above recommendation, I would have to tell Ese to try and see, but my money is that setting his Vienna Acoustics set to Large will be the best option If and Only IF he has a feature on his Prepro/Rx that allows for redundant/extra bass.

many higher end processors and receivers allow for "enhanced" or "reduntant" bass in which low frequency information sent to the mains (who are set as FULL RANGE) is duplicated and sent to the Subwoofer output, in addition to the dedicated .1 information.

with the ability to place the subwoofer around the room, and IF the main speakers are truly Full range speakers capable of producing down to 25-30hz (example, a pair of Nautilus 802s or bigger, etc), there is a much higher chance of having a smoother in-room response due to placement and headroom.

again, this all depends on a) the speaker being truly Full range and having good low freq reproduction, and b) the Processor/Receiver having the capacity to do redundant/enhanced/extra bass.

-Sherv

I use Mogami cable with Neutrik connectors. Good quality, affordable.

The cable I was thinking about getting originally was the AudioQuest Sub-1. The Mogami sounds like a good choice as the Gold Neglex Quad Microphone cable is only $50 for 15ft at Guitar Center. My question is does it matter that this cable was designed for microphone use?

You could always get my cables ;-) but if you get a microphone cable from a "music store" you MUST make sure you remove the pin 1 to pin 0 jumper which you will usually find at (in) the female end of the cable.

Regards
Barry

I've used Frank at Signal cable for all my current cable usage. Had used temporarily an old microphone cable from work for a week and then upgraded to Signal cable single ended for both subs.I use their XLR cables from pre-amp to amplifier. Both are at least 35ft lengths love them both.

I use Mogami cable with Neutrik connectors. Good quality, affordable.


My friend Courtney and I wanted to try these new speaker cables Jonas Miller started selling at his store (late 70's early 80's). Mogami was my first "experiment" into cables other than zip cord cables.We were so impressed with them. I was using them on my Magnaplanar MGIIB's and my friend used them on his Tympani 1D's!

In regards to XLR cables it needs to be "straight thru". Pin outs as follows:

M to F
1 to 1
2 to 2
3 to 3

I know the Whirlwind mic cables are this way.

many higher end processors and receivers allow for "enhanced" or "reduntant" bass in which low frequency information sent to the mains (who are set as FULL RANGE) is duplicated and sent to the Subwoofer output, in addition to the dedicated .1 information.-Sherv

is this similar to the "LFE + main" feature ?

In regards to XLR cables it needs to be "straight thru". Pin outs as follows:

M to F
1 to 1
2 to 2
3 to 3

I know the Whirlwind mic cables are this way.

That's correct, of course, but open the female end and see if there is a jumper between pin 1 and "pin 0", which is the shell.

is this similar to the "LFE + main" feature ?

correct

If I use a (Y) splitter at the mono out on my AVR, with RCA cables going to each of the (2) F113 subs, will I lose anything in the terms of sound/sonics?
I will run both ARO's and control everything from the AVR.

Verses, using the XLR connection and Master/Slave.
(My reason, is my subs are very far apart and this would be easier.)

If I use a (Y) splitter at the mono out on my AVR, with RCA cables going to each of the (2) F113 subs, will I lose anything in the terms of sound/sonics?
I will run both ARO's and control everything from the AVR.

Verses, using the XLR connection and Master/Slave.
(My reason, is my subs are very far apart and this would be easier.)

I originally had a Y adapter plugged in and it worked extremely well.I did not notice any loss of sound.

"it worked extremely well" (Franin)

Thanks, thats what I have been told also.
I thought I would just ask again, in case someone had different thoughts. in which case I would look more into my current connections, before I move to my next project, and possible Elipsa purchase.

I have also used a Y adapter with no audible difference.

"I have also used a Y adapter with no audible difference" (RMK)

Did you use another (Y) to connect to both of the RCA F113 inputs in each sub, or only the one (Mono) RCA input connection per sub?

IF you used 3 (Y adapters), was there a sonic gain you would recommend?
I am currently connected by one RCA into each F113.

Thanks

"I have also used a Y adapter with no audible difference" (RMK)

Did you use another (Y) to connect to both of the RCA F113 inputs in each sub, or only the one (Mono) RCA input connection per sub?

IF you used 3 (Y adapters), what was there a sonic gain you would recommend?
I am currently connected by one RCA into each F113.

Thanks
Connecting to both inputs only causes the sub to combine the two inputs, which adds 3 dB of gain to the input signal, (it is afterall, the exact same signal on both inputs.) You could do the same thing by turning up the sub output of the receiver 3 dB. You should only need to connect to both inputs if you are having trouble with the "Auto-On" feature, in which case a little more input signal could help the sub "wake up" sooner. Otherwise, there is no sonic benefit.

Craig

If I use a (Y) splitter at the mono out on my AVR, with RCA cables going to each of the (2) F113 subs, will I lose anything in the terms of sound/sonics?
I will run both ARO's and control everything from the AVR.

Verses, using the XLR connection and Master/Slave.
(My reason, is my subs are very far apart and this would be easier.)

Running both ARO's separately may or may not be better than using Master/Slave and running one ARO for both subs together. It depends on how the two outputs combine. There is really no way to predict this in advance, (AFAIK). Your best bet would be to try it both ways if that's possible. If not, then just use the one that is most practical.

Craig

Running both ARO's separately may or may not be better than using Master/Slave and running one ARO for both subs together. It depends on how the two outputs combine. There is really no way to predict this in advance, (AFAIK). Your best bet would be to try it both ways if that's possible. If not, then just use the one that is most practical.

Craig

I asked Carl Kennedy about this when I was about to purchae my two F112's. His reply was to just run ARO separately with both subs as master. YMMV.

"I asked Carl Kennedy about this when I was about to purchae my two F112's. His reply was to just run ARO separately with both subs as master."

He told me the same thing today.
My Auto on works, well /(quick), but one Sub does not seem to auto off.

I'm running my F112 pair in Master/Slave, but then I'm not using ARO at all. I'm just using Audyssey MultEQ XT.

Craig

You should only need to connect to both inputs if you are having trouble with the "Auto-On" feature, in which case a little more input signal could help the sub "wake up" sooner.

Craig

So that is why they take a long time to kick in when running the AVR test tones.:rolleyes: I think it became faster when I removed the splitter and connected them both directly, but I will have to pay attention next time I check the levels. I definitely realized a boost in level.

Mark

I'm running my F112 pair in Master/Slave, but then I'm not using ARO at all. I'm just using Audyssey MultEQ XT.

Craig

I am using ARO on my two f113's, but have yet to run Audyssey. I am going to try just running Audyssey on top of ARO and see how it works.

Mark

I would still recommend setting the mains to 'small'. It's desirable to have all the bass energy coming from the more capable low frequency system, and it will make your mains sound cleaner and open up the soundstage.

Try it both ways and see what you think.


I agree! Better for the subs to get all low (>80Hz) bass and let the mainspeaker play over the crossover.

Can I turn the F113's Master Volume (variable) to a slight gain/boost, and use my AVR Sub volume, together for greater boost?

Or, do I need to pick either, the AVR or F113, to control Max Sub volume?
The F113 directions led me to believe its one or the other.

Got my F-113 setup and pretty dialed in over the weekend. Very, very clean bass :D I owned one in the past but due not remember being this impressed with it. Not quite the same output as the SVS PB-13 Ultra but certainly faster and clearer, less decay. I still need to do some more tweaking on my SMS-1 as I feel I have a bit too much DB gain on the 20 hz region, and I am not that comfortable with bumping it up there. But maybe I am concerned over nothing? I am a bit of a novice with the SMS-1. It is certainly the flatest response I have had with any sub in my room yet. Now I just need to add another... ;)

btw, I had it set to variable while I was adjusting trim levels. Is that where it is recommended to leave it know that everything is dialed in? or am I supposed to switch it back? Thanks.

How well does the SMS-1 work with the Fathoms? Did you apply the ARO first then worked it with the SMS-1? I was looking at getting one also but someone told me if you have Audyssey(In the Pre-amp) it does just a good enough job.

How well does the SMS-1 work with the Fathoms? Did you apply the ARO first then worked it with the SMS-1? I was looking at getting one also but someone told me if you have Audyssey(In the Pre-amp) it does just a good enough job.

I am a big fan of the SMS-1. Yes I ran the ARO first and then tweaked everything with the SMS-1. I have not had good resuklts with Audyssey in my 9.8 and do not use it.

I am a big fan of the SMS-1. Yes I ran the ARO first and then tweaked everything with the SMS-1. I have not had good resuklts with Audyssey in my 9.8 and do not use it.

Im thinking of getting one also but how do you know what curve to apply? If it sounds wrong sorry Im trying to learn how it works and what to look for.

Im thinking of getting one also but how do you know what curve to apply? If it sounds wrong sorry Im trying to learn how it works and what to look for.

I dont understand what you mean??? You do not apply a curve. The SMS-1 displays the frequency response of bass in your room and then you tweak it for the flatest response.

I dont understand what you mean??? You do not apply a curve. The SMS-1 displays the frequency response of bass in your room and then you tweak it for the flatest response.

Ah, sorry mate just trying to learn:o I read an article about house curve and they say you need to apply a curve. I must of got it confused. So to get the flat response what do you do?

Read this and you should be all set

http://pdf.outlawaudio.com/outlaw/docs/sms1guide.pdf

Ah, sorry mate just trying to learn:o I read an article about house curve and they say you need to apply a curve. I must of got it confused. So to get the flat response what do you do?

Outlaw Audio has created a custom guide (http://pdf.outlawaudio.com/outlaw/docs/sms1guide.pdf) for the SMS-1 (they also sell them). It is a down loadable PDF and is actually much better than the Velo SMS-1 manual. :)

Great minds think alike :)

Thanks guys!

I dont understand what you mean??? You do not apply a curve. The SMS-1 displays the frequency response of bass in your room and then you tweak it for the flatest response.

You can tweak it for whatever response you like, it doesn't have to be flat. Some people prefer a little boost at certain frequencies to add a little extra "oomph". :)

You can tweak it for whatever response you like, it doesn't have to be flat. Some people prefer a little boost at certain frequencies to add a little extra "oomph". :)

True story :D

I was just trying to explain that there is no pre-determined curve that is selected.

Guys, I am beginng to consider trying to integrate my F-113 into my 2 channel listening. I am pretty stuck on 2 channel is 2 channel, period; so this is a big step for me :rolleyes: I use a seperate 2 channel pre-amp with a home theater bypass for music and a home theater processor for movies and tv. Here is what I am thinking and I would love some input/feedback.


1. My 2 channel pre-amp has both XLR and RCA outs. I currently run the XLR out to my amp for my fronts.
2. I would run the RCA outs from my 2 channel pre-amp into the RCA inputs of my SMS-1 and then run RCA from the SMS-1 to the F-113.
3. I would probably set a crossover of somewhere around 40 hz or so (just a guess at this point) for this preset in the SMS-1. I realize there will be some bass overlap but I think the integration should be pretty smooth.
4. For home theater I would Take the XLR Sub out from my processor and into the XLR LFE input of the SMS-1 and then XLR out for the SMS-1 to the F-113.
5. In this preset there is no crossover in the SMS-1 as it is handled in the processor.

I would never play both signals at the same time so I would think it is ok to have inputs in both the RCA and XLR of the F-113, but I am not positive. I would love any and all thoughts on this potential setup, thanks!

Guys, I am beginng to consider trying to integrate my F-113 into my 2 channel listening. I am pretty stuck on 2 channel is 2 channel, period; so this is a big step for me :rolleyes: I use a seperate 2 channel pre-amp with a home theater bypass for music and a home theater processor for movies and tv. Here is what I am thinking and I would love some input/feedback.


1. My 2 channel pre-amp has both XLR and RCA outs. I currently run the XLR out to my amp for my fronts.
2. I would run the RCA outs from my 2 channel pre-amp into the RCA inputs of my SMS-1 and then run RCA from the SMS-1 to the F-113.
3. I would probably set a crossover of somewhere around 40 hz or so (just a guess at this point) for this preset in the SMS-1. I realize there will be some bass overlap but I think the integration should be pretty smooth.
4. For home theater I would Take the XLR Sub out from my processor and into the XLR LFE input of the SMS-1 and then XLR out for the SMS-1 to the F-113.
5. In this preset there is no crossover in the SMS-1 as it is handled in the processor.

I would never play both signals at the same time so I would think it is ok to have inputs in both the RCA and XLR of the F-113, but I am not positive. I would love any and all thoughts on this potential setup, thanks!

That will work just fine... many people do this with very good results.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Thanks so much for the reply!!

Guys, I am beginng to consider trying to integrate my F-113 into my 2 channel listening. I am pretty stuck on 2 channel is 2 channel, period; so this is a big step for me :rolleyes: I use a seperate 2 channel pre-amp with a home theater bypass for music and a home theater processor for movies and tv. Here is what I am thinking and I would love some input/feedback.


1. My 2 channel pre-amp has both XLR and RCA outs. I currently run the XLR out to my amp for my fronts.
2. I would run the RCA outs from my 2 channel pre-amp into the RCA inputs of my SMS-1 and then run RCA from the SMS-1 to the F-113.
3. I would probably set a crossover of somewhere around 40 hz or so (just a guess at this point) for this preset in the SMS-1. I realize there will be some bass overlap but I think the integration should be pretty smooth.
4. For home theater I would Take the XLR Sub out from my processor and into the XLR LFE input of the SMS-1 and then XLR out for the SMS-1 to the F-113.
5. In this preset there is no crossover in the SMS-1 as it is handled in the processor.

I would never play both signals at the same time so I would think it is ok to have inputs in both the RCA and XLR of the F-113, but I am not positive. I would love any and all thoughts on this potential setup, thanks!

Been there, done that ... no problems.

Glad you are open to giving this a try. In 2 channel mode my Studio2’s sound very good without subs but with them, they are off the map good.

Been there, done that ... no problems.

Glad you are open to giving this a try. In 2 channel mode my Studio2’s sound very good without subs but with them, they are off the map good.

Out of curiosity, where are you crossing them over at?

Out of curiosity, where are you crossing them over at?

Currently 80Hz although I have tried just about every other freq from 40Hz up. With quad (or one for that matter) Fathoms, I don't see or hear;) the need to cross them lower.

"Currently 80Hz although I have tried just about every other freq from 40Hz up. With quad (or one for that matter) Fathoms, I don't see or hear the need to cross them lower." (RMK)

Although subjective.
It seems, in my system, 80hz is too high, for 2 channel music. The F113's seem to draw attention to themselves at 80hz, 40hz to even 60hz seems much better.
I am a huge 2 channel fan. Its been tough on me mentally, turning over low end duty to the F113's, from my full range speakers.

I have Salk HT3s as my mains and have always listened to music as 2-channel only, no surrounds, rears or subs. The HT3 has a 10in. woofer and is great down to about 35Hz. However I have been playing around with my twin F113s and crossing over at 40Hz. WOW a whole new level of great. I am considering getting a 3rd F113 to use behind me in the room for LFE while watching HT. My Denon AVP A1-HD has the 3 subs connections. I don't need the 3rd sub, but if I find an extra good deal I will probably get one anyway.

At the moment I'm using rca(subwoofer cable) for focal subs, will there be much of a difference going to xlr? The reason why I ask its a pain in the ass to change over when my fathoms arrive but if there is a significant difference in quality will change. I don't get no hum with the cables I'm using know.

At the moment I'm using rca(subwoofer cable) for focal subs, will there be much of a difference going to xlr? The reason why I ask its a pain in the ass to change over when my fathoms arrive but if there is a significant difference in quality will change. I don't get no hum with the cables I'm using know.

The RCA's are fine... don't sweat it.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

The RCA's are fine... don't sweat it.

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Thank you

rang the JL audio distributor today here in Australia and was told due to the heavy storms in America they have not been shipped as of yet. Apparently 18 day by boat then another 5 days of clearance and then courier to the other side of the state. I could be looking Mid to end of October know. Bugger:(

I would like to know also.

Can I turn the F113's Master Volume (variable) to a slight gain/boost, and use my AVR Sub volume, together for greater boost?

Or, do I need to pick either, the AVR or F113, to control Max Sub volume?
The F113 directions led me to believe its one or the other.

I want to know too.

JL says yes, but do not turn the Fathom (variable) more then 3 pm.
Then use your AVR.controls.

Cheers

I find that I boost the db's for Movies then say Music.
What do some of you pump up your Fathom (sub) to for movies? DB's?

I was reading Carl Kennedy's blog, and he has an interesting article about setting the crossover.

http://theprofessionalanswer.com/WordPress/?p=6

He recommends 100-125hz for even floorstanding speakers when using a quality sub like the F113. I have my F113 paired with an Era Design 5 bookshelf system. These speakers are known for having solid bass for a bookshelf design. Would a 100hz crossover be better than the traditional 80hz. My speaker mfg STRONGLY recommends a 50-60hz crossover. Is 100hz too high? Maybe it is just dumb pride, but I have difficulty going higher than a 80hz crossover. Any thoughts would be great.

I was reading Carl Kennedy's blog, and he has an interesting article about setting the crossover. He recommends 100-125hz for even floorstanding speakers when using a quality sub like the F113. I have my F113 paired with an Era Design 5 bookshelf system. These speakers are known for having solid bass for a bookshelf design. Would a 100hz crossover be better than the traditional 80hz. My speaker mfg STRONGLY recommends a 50-60hz crossover. Is 100hz too high? Maybe it is just dumb pride, but I have difficulty going higher than a 80hz crossover. Any thoughts would be great.

Interesting thought.

Interesting thought.

In my own system, I have my f112's crossed over at 90 Hz and this works very well with the subs just outboard of the mains.

The higher the x-over point, the more you open up the satellite speakers' headroom. If the subs are placed near the satellites, then a higher crossover point (up to about 150 Hz) can work quite well. Give it a shot.

Keep in mind that it isn't a permanent adjustment... you can always go back to below 80 Hz if you don't like it. ;)

In my own system, I have my f112's crossed over at 90 Hz and this works very well with the subs just outboard of the mains.

The higher the x-over point, the more you open up the satellite speakers' headroom. If the subs are placed near the satellites, then a higher crossover point (up to about 150 Hz) can work quite well. Give it a shot.

Keep in mind that it isn't a permanent adjustment... you can always go back to below 80 Hz if you don't like it. ;)

Might be a silly question but how about with M&K s150's? I think they are designed to be crossed over at 80hz. Will that affect transition from the mains to the subs if I go any higher? Has anyone tried this with an M&K/F113 combo?

with a crossover of 125hz, wouldn't that mandate running "stereo subs" ?

"with a crossover of 125hz, wouldn't that mandate running "stereo subs" ?"

Yes, and as close to the front speakers as possible.

"with a crossover of 125hz, wouldn't that mandate running "stereo subs" ?"

Yes, and as close to the front speakers as possible.

yup, i was going to add that also :)

http://theprofessionalanswer.com/WordPress/?p=6

What is the difference, if you cross higher in regard to overlap sound. Would you not just have a higher (noticable) overlap?
Also what about the synergy of the Full range speaker when you try to handshake it to a Jl fathom set to 125 hz. You would think at least, the lower the crossover, the less likely you would hear where one speaker starts and another speaker ends.

But with that said, it does make sense that the 2500 watt Fathom would be a better speaker at 120hz and lower, then most full range speakers, being that it was built for this range only.
Has anyone tried this, in their system yet. (Retire 1/2 of your full range speaker, and employ a Fathom)

thanks alot

I have used my two f112's in my two-channel system for a few years now and recently decided to remove them. Even though my main speakers are Rockport Tech's Mira's that easily play down below 30Hz in my room, I overlapped my 112's with my Mira's to help achieve a more linear bass response for music. When doing an AB comparison with them the differences were not night and day. My biggest problem was that because I was using two different types of woofers, one capable of massive excursion, that phase issues would arise. The biggest issue was below 30 Hz and below. With the sub and the speakers overlapped, I would have a cancellation in that area. Without the subs, I have much more output in that area. In the end, even though the subs are excellent performers, I found that the Mira's were better off by themselves. The bass is more detailed and more cohesive with the rest of my speaker. For the 15 grand that these speakers now cost, they should be able to stand on their own feet and not require a subwoofer. While a sub can add something to the mix, for me and my musical tastes, it only added a complication. I still use them for HT and really appreciate all that they can do.

i believe carl also mentioned the use of crossovers with very steep slopes

traditional thought was to make sure the sub and speaker overlapped each other one full octave but it looks like the rules are changing

i would love to see JL build a true full-range active loudspeaker. something like a Primacy X3 mounted on top of a f212

i know people love to say "but the best place for the sub isn't always the best place for the speaker"

well when running "stereo subs" you see the subs very close to the mains anyway [note: "stereo subs" not "dual a mono sub set-up"]

then you could set "no subwoofer" in the pre/pro (all bass and the LFE channel would be sent to the "large" mains and flawlessly blended) and takes all the guess work out of phase and crossover selection

I have used my two f112's in my two-channel system for a few years now and recently decided to remove them. Even though my main speakers are Rockport Tech's Mira's that easily play down below 30Hz in my room, I overlapped my 112's with my Mira's to help achieve a more linear bass response for music. When doing an AB comparison with them the differences were not night and day. My biggest problem was that because I was using two different types of woofers, one capable of massive excursion, that phase issues would arise. The biggest issue was below 30 Hz and below. With the sub and the speakers overlapped, I would have a cancellation in that area. Without the subs, I have much more output in that area. In the end, even though the subs are excellent performers, I found that the Mira's were better off by themselves. The bass is more detailed and more cohesive with the rest of my speaker. For the 15 grand that these speakers now cost, they should be able to stand on their own feet and not require a subwoofer. While a sub can add something to the mix, for me and my musical tastes, it only added a complication. I still use them for HT and really appreciate all that they can do.

It sounds like you hadn't "dialed them in" to their best potential if you were getting less bass below 30hz with subs on. Phase adjustments etc and measurements are essential. You have fabulous speakers but they weren't designed to put out the same kind of bass that a dedicated sub like this can do. My ATC Anniversary 100s now list for over 40k but the woofer inside it is not built to the extreme standards of the JL woofer so I wouldn't expect it to match it's bass. Mind you it does have really good bass too, but my point is that the quality/quantity of the bass is not proportional to the cost of the speaker. There are some tiny speakers for lotsa $$$$$.

If you're satisfied with your music without subs (which I am for now) then I would just listen to music without the subs too.

I tried the Crossover at 120hz to relieve my full range speakers.
The sound was different, but I do not know if it was better. For one thing, I was not use to it.
With the (2) JL113's crossed at 120hz, the sound was to the point, with not as much air to the notes. Very tight and precise.
I will keep this setup for a while, in order, to see if I get use to it, then go back to my original setup 80hz (crosover) to see if the notes sound either, long or sloppy.

Anyone else try 120hz (crossover) with full range speakers?

Only thing I can tell you guys that are on the fence about what sub to buy is this. I watched Transformers tonight and on several scenes I thought I was in the movie. To the idiots that buy them butt shakers you need to toss them and get the real deal. I live in a brand new upper scale subdivision. I am the only single person in here and I am the king on the block. Biggest house and best by far (I am a new home builder.) I know all the neighbors curse me at night when I have the Fathom rocking and rolling! Just wait till I roll in the second one!

I tried it.
(2) F113's at 120hz crossover and Fullrange speakers, does not work for me with (music), at all. Absolutely no air! Parts of the music/notes are gone.

I am Going back to 80hz or lower but it was an interesting CK read and seemed reasonable enough, to try...

To the idiots that buy them butt shakers you need to toss them and get the real deal.

I hear ya,those people are not "I" they have sub standard subwoofers that cannot shake the air around them well enough. ;)

I pitty(and pray for salvation) all these bass shaker users. My subs move so much air I do not need any BS Shaker.

:p

I tried it.
(2) F113's at 120hz crossover and Fullrange speakers, does not work for me with (music), at all. Absolutely no air! Parts of the music/notes are gone.

I am Going back to 80hz or lower but it was an interesting CK read and seemed reasonable enough, to try...

I tried it too and I agree. My 4 surrounds are at 100Hz but the LCR are and will likely stay at 80Hz.

I tried it.
(2) F113's at 120hz crossover and Fullrange speakers, does not work for me with (music), at all. Absolutely no air! Parts of the music/notes are gone.

I am Going back to 80hz or lower but it was an interesting CK read and seemed reasonable enough, to try...
I'm not sure I'm understanding what you did...Did you cross the speakers over to the subs at 120 Hz? Or, did you run the speakers full range and use the low pass filter on the subs to "crossover"? Or, did you use the "Double Bass" feature in your pre/pro?

If you did anything besides crossing the speakers over to the subs at 120 Hz, I would suggest you re-try it with the speakers crossed over. Running the speakers full range *and* sending the bass to the subs is going to be difficult to get right. First, it will be hard to calibrate. Second, it will very difficult to set the phase correctly. Third, you can end up with lots of cancellations and reinforcements. It's like trying to integrate 2 less-capable subs, (the speakers) with two much more capable subs, (the F113's). If you want to integrate your subs with speakers, even large, full range speakers, it's a lot easier, (and often better), to set the speakers to "small", (i.e., to invoke a crossover on them.) I know it may seem "unmanly" and even wasteful to not use the full extension of your speakers. However, it may well be the best way to integrate the "system". It doesn't cost anything to try it, just like it didn't cost anything to try what you already tried. :)

One last thought... the F113's are only "flat" to just above 120 Hz. They are probably best when crossed over below that. The F112's are actually better in the upper bass than the F113's. They're flat to about 150 Hz. With the F113's, I would stick with a lower crossover than 120 Hz under any circumstances.

Have fun.

Craig

To the idiots that buy them butt shakers you need to toss them and get the real deal.
I bet your system is on a suspended floor. It's easy to get tactile response on a suspended floor. Try it on a concrete floor, like my basement. Ain't gonna happen. It's pretty hard to vibrate concrete. My tactile transducer adds the tactile response not possible in my room, even with a pair of Fathoms.

I live in a brand new upper scale subdivision. I am the only single person in here and I am the king on the block. Biggest house and best by far (I am a new home builder.)
Not a wise investment to build the "biggest and best house" in the neighborhood. The value of your biggest and best house is diminished by the neighbors. :(

I know all the neighbors curse me at night when I have the Fathom rocking and rolling!
I'll bet they do!

Just wait till I roll in the second one!
I'm sure the neighbors can hardly wait. :rolleyes:

Craig

"I would suggest you re-try it with the speakers crossed over"

I crossed the full range speakers over at 120hz to the F113's, so The F113's played 120hz down or where ever the exact roll off was.

Music sound was Tight, but with my system, tight notes, seem to cut out a lot of music.
I would like to try this (120hz cross.) with ported subs of similar caliber, to see if there is a difference.
This was really, not even a close call, comparison, to a 80hz or less crossover point on my system.
Not sure exactly why, because you would think my F113's would kick my
Mcintosh LS360's butt, at 120hz and below, by handing off drum and bass duty to them.

I bet your system is on a suspended floor. It's easy to get tactile response on a suspended floor. Try it on a concrete floor, like my basement. Ain't gonna happen. It's pretty hard to vibrate concrete. My tactile transducer adds the tactile response not possible in my room, even with a pair of Fathoms.

Craig

I have a concrete floor in my basement and can get all the tactile response I want with the f113s. 2 of them were enough, but 4 of them really helped satisfy the bass monkey on my back. ;)

I'm not suggesting that the concrete is moving, but the chairs are being vibrated nicely as well as the pit of my stomach. I never considered tactile transducers but I know some people swear by them.

I have a concrete floor in my basement and can get all the tactile response I want with the f113s. 2 of them were enough, but 4 of them really helped satisfy the bass monkey on my back. ;)

I'm not suggesting that the concrete is moving, but the chairs are being vibrated nicely as well as the pit of my stomach. I never considered tactile transducers but I know some people swear by them.

hey Bogg, how did you end up placing all your subs?

and did you ever get them all calibrated. i remember you were having some issues with getting all 4 in phase. did you ever get that all sorted out ?

I have a concrete floor in my basement and can get all the tactile response I want with the f113s. 2 of them were enough, but 4 of them really helped satisfy the bass monkey on my back. ;)

I'm not suggesting that the concrete is moving, but the chairs are being vibrated nicely as well as the pit of my stomach. I never considered tactile transducers but I know some people swear by them.
I have 2 friends with HT's on the 2nd floor of their homes, (i.e., suspended floors.) They both have very capable subwoofer systems. They both get very impressive tactile response by coupling the bass with the suspended floor. You can feel the bass shake the floor, and you can feel it in your feet, in your butt, in your back, and, if your hands are on the armrests, in your hands. This kind of tactile response can *not* be duplicated on a concrete floor.

I can get "pressurization" with my F112 pair. I can get the couch vibrating. I can get the "kick-in-the-chest". What I can't get is the floor shaking from the the coupling of the subwoofer to the floor. It is simply impossible to shake a concrete floor, even with a JL Fathom. I can however "mimic" this effect with my tactile transducer, (a Crowson motion actuator powered by a Buttkicker 1,000 watt amp.)

I was at CEDIA 2 weeks ago. I spent some time in the D-Box demo, and the Runco demo that had D-Box motion actuators. These devices actually move the seating up/down, left/right and front/back in sync with a specific "Motion Code" recorded on some of the newer BluRay discs. This takes the "Buttkicker" concept to a whole new level. There is simply no possible way any subwoofer could do what these motion actuators can do.

Craig

"I would suggest you re-try it with the speakers crossed over"

I crossed the full range speakers over at 120hz to the F113's, so The F113's played 120hz down or where ever the exact roll off was.

Music sound was Tight, but with my system, tight notes, seem to cut out a lot of music.
I would like to try this (120hz cross.) with ported subs of similar caliber, to see if there is a difference.
This was really, not even a close call, comparison, to a 80hz or less crossover point on my system.
Not sure exactly why, because you would think my F113's would kick my
Mcintosh LS360's butt, at 120hz and below, by handing off drum and bass duty to them.

Well, as I said, the F113's are not that great at upper bass. They will probably work better in most circumstances crossed over at less than 100 Hz. Your Mcintosh speakers may well be better at the 80 to 120 Hz stuff than the F113's.

I doubt most vented subs (ported or Passive Radiator designs), would work better at the upper frequencies. The ports or PR's in a vented design are tuned well below the 80 to 120 Hz crossover. A port or a PR is tuned to a resonant frequency. If a vented sub is tuned for 20 Hz response, the ports (or PR) will have the majority of the output at 20 Hz, and a few Hz on either side of 20 Hz. The driver will move very little at the "tuned" frequency, but the port/PR will resonate freely at that frequency. However, at other frequencies, the port/PR will have very little output and the active driver will be doing all the work.

At the crossover frequencies in question, (80 to 120 Hz), the "vents" in a vented design, (ports or PR's), will have virtually no output and almost no impact on sound quality.

The McIntosh LS-360's are also a "ported" design. The ports are probably "tuned" to about 32 to 35 Hz, (the speakers are -3 dB @ 29 Hz.) Crossing them over at 80 Hz to the F113's takes the ports out of play for the most part.

Craig

This kind of tactile response can *not* be duplicated on a concrete floor.

I can get "pressurization" with my F112 pair. I can get the couch vibrating. I can get the "kick-in-the-chest". What I can't get is the floor shaking from the the coupling of the subwoofer to the floor. It is simply impossible to shake a concrete floor, even with a JL Fathom. I can however "mimic" this effect with my tactile transducer, (a Crowson motion actuator powered by a Buttkicker 1,000 watt amp.)

Craig

True...but I'm not a fan of that kind of tactile experience, which others obviously do like.

hey Bogg, how did you end up placing all your subs?

and did you ever get them all calibrated. i remember you were having some issues with getting all 4 in phase. did you ever get that all sorted out ?

I've had a small problem with my Equitech unit and then mysteriously one of the woofers in my main ATCs just failed. I just got the replacement and will install it asap. Just hasn't been much time to fiddle around. I haven't moved the subs from the 1/4 length of the sidewall position. My plan for phase matching (which I got from a guy on the Anthem D2 forum) is to individually match each sub to the front left speaker. That should mean they are all in phase in theory. Can't wait to try it over the next couple of weeks. I'll post back with the results of course.

The McIntosh LS-360's are also a "ported" design. The ports are probably "tuned" to about 32 to 35 Hz, (the speakers are -3 dB @ 29 Hz.) Crossing them over at 80 Hz to the F113's takes the ports out of play for the most part."

Were would you (guess) the best crossover is using the LS 360's
Is taking the Ports out of play, what I need to do for the best sound?

Have the D-box demos gotten better? I tried a demo more than a two years ago and I felt really sick. The concept was cool, but it ended up feeling like I was in one of those simulation rides.

The McIntosh LS-360's are also a "ported" design. The ports are probably "tuned" to about 32 to 35 Hz, (the speakers are -3 dB @ 29 Hz.) Crossing them over at 80 Hz to the F113's takes the ports out of play for the most part."

Were would you (guess) the best crossover is using the LS 360's
Is taking the Ports out of play, what I need to do for the best sound?
Ports provide efficient extension of the bass response. They also introduce some group delay that, by itself, is not usually audible. However, when mated with sealed subs, (which don't have much group delay), you can get phase issues between the subs and speakers. Therefore, taking the ports out of play in the speakers can make the *system* work better. It can also make it easier to place the speakers where they image the best and present the best soundstage without having to be concerned about their bass response.

The crossover in most Bass Management systems is a 12 dB/octave filter. If you set the crossover at 80 Hz, the input level will be down 12 dB at 40 Hz and approximately another +/-6 dB by 30 Hz. A 100 Hz crossover will be down 12 dB at 50 Hz and another 8 to 10 dB at 30 Hz. A 60 Hz crossover will be down 12 dB at 30 Hz.

However, these are just the *input* levels. The actual in-room level will be impacted significantly by the room and placement. Therefore, it's hard to say just how much lower the in-room level will be from the ported mains with a 60, 80 or 100 Hz crossover. Nonetheless, the more you can take the ports out of the equation, the less phase issues you'll have between the mains and the subs.

I would try all three crossovers and any others you have available. Just be aware that, the higher you set the crossover, the more likely you are to have localization of the subs. I would definitely not advise a crossover above 100 Hz. 80 Hz is most likely to be the best compromise of localization vs. impacting the phase issues, but it doesn't hurt to try them all.

Craig

Have the D-box demos gotten better? I tried a demo more than a two years ago and I felt really sick. The concept was cool, but it ended up feeling like I was in one of those simulation rides.
The D-Box demo in the D-Box room was interesting. They played the scene from Live Free Or Die Hard where the fighter jet is chasing the semi driven by Bruce Wills. At one point, the semi is going around a corner and is close to tipping over. The D-box leaned you over to the point where you *felt* the inertia of the truck tipping up on it's side. In another scene, the truck is trying to drive up a steeply banked section of bridge that had been destroyed by a missile from the fighter jet. The truck gets almost to the top and starts to skid backwards. The D-Box leaned you backward in the seat to the point that you *felt* like you were falling with the truck. In addition, there were lots of shakes, bumps, wiggles and vibrations with all the explosions and the movements of the truck.

When the scene was finished, they replayed parts of it without the actuators. The experience was definitely different without the motion. Overall, it was interesting, but I could certainly see how some people could get "motion sickness".

When I got home from the show, I replayed this scene on my system with the Crowson transducer. It had the vibrations, bumps and shakes, without the exaggerated motion. I actually *preferred* the scene on my system. I have also watched this scene at a friends house who's HT is on the second floor of his home. The suspended floor provides as much or more motion than my transducer, and that was actually the *best* and most natural rendition of the motion. If I ever build another HT, it will be on a suspended floor, not a concrete basement floor.

Craig

Oh, and did I mention how *ridiculously* expensive the system is??? I would never consider spending the $$$ on that system. However, I did learn that Crowson is working with D-Box on a modification that will allow their transducer to read the "Motion Code" track on many of the newer BluRay discs. The transducer is not capable of the exaggerated 3-dimensional motion, so it will ignore that part of the recording. However, it will use the rest of the info to create the shaking and vibration. Having a separate signal will provide much more control over the transducer and allow for different crossover and filter settings independent of the subwoofer track.

Does this sub-woofer heat up?

Does this sub-woofer heat up?

I have yet to be able to get mine to break a sweat ;)

Mine runs very cool actually.

A Fathom's heat sink will get warm to the touch if played hard for hours on end, but that just means it's working. :-)

Under normal listening conditions, it won't appreciably heat up.

Thanks -- I am going to audition the Fathom 113 later today -- this is going into a dedicated theater -- what material should I bring to the audition to hear the superiority of this sub-woofer over others? I've heard that Blackhawk Down is a good torture test. True? Any particular sequence?

Thanks -- I am going to audition the Fathom 113 later today -- this is going into a dedicated theater -- what material should I bring to the audition to hear the superiority of this sub-woofer over others? I've heard that Blackhawk Down is a good torture test. True? Any particular sequence?

Blackhawk Down is very good... make sure you bring some familiar music, too.

The drum scene from House of Flying Daggers is superb for demonstrating bass control and power.

All it took was a few musical passages and a few scenes from Blackhawk down. I get it. I am now the proud owner of a F113 Fathom. They're installing it tomorrow. Can't wait!

Heh, for me it was Master and Commander. I listened to that and U-571 at the AV shop and bought it right after. I've been a happy camper ever since.

Craig John,

Sounds interesting. I wouldn't mind the timed booms without the motion.

All it took was a few musical passages and a few scenes from Blackhawk down. I get it. I am now the proud owner of a F113 Fathom. They're installing it tomorrow. Can't wait!

It does not take long, does it? :D The JL subs are obviously not the most inexpensive subwoofer on the market but when you combine that quality of sub with the small footprint and beautiful cabinet it becomes an easy decision.

Hi guys, I have just placed my order for 2 f113 and expecting delivery in about 3 weeks (all the way to malaysia). I m wondering whether onkyo tx-sr876 avr is good enough to drive the 2 f113 or should I consider buying separates processor/amp. Anybody using avr and is happy with it? any feedback is welcome. tq

Hi guys, I have just placed my order for 2 f113 and expecting delivery in about 3 weeks (all the way to malaysia). I m wondering whether onkyo tx-sr876 avr is good enough to drive the 2 f113 or should I consider buying separates processor/amp. Anybody using avr and is happy with it? any feedback is welcome. tq
You cannot connect the F113 at speaker level. The only inputs are line level. Therefore, the receiver won't actually be "driving the subs". The receiver will provide the signal to the sub's amplifiers, which will drive the subs. The real question then becomes: "Does the receiver have a good enough Bass Management System to provide the proper signal to the subs to blend them well with the main speakers?"

According to the Onkyo USA website, the TX-SR876 seems to have a pretty rigorous BM system, with independent crossovers and multiple crossover settings.
http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=TX-SR876&class=Receiver&p=f
It also has a full compliment of Audyssey features, so it should do a respectable job of room correction. However, in the Onkyo implementation of Audyssey MultEQ XT, Onkyo usually uses 80 Hz as the cutoff point for running speakers "Full Range". IOW, any main speakers that have any measured output below 80 Hz are set to "Full Range" by Onkyo. For most speakers, this is inappropriate. Unless the main speakers have full 20 Hz extension, (extremely rare), they should be crossed over to the subwoofer(s). Fortunately, this problem is easily correctable. Just select the crossover point recommended by Audyssey and you'll circumvent Onkyo's foolishness.

Of course, you could get even better BM capabilities with a separate pre/pro, such as adjustable crossover slopes and independent crossovers for each speaker. However, it would take some serious expertise to utilize these features. Also, they cost a lot more money.

The other question regarding the choice of a receiver or separate components is the amplifier stage of the receiver. You can certainly buy more powerful amplifiers than the amps in that receiver. However, the amps in that receiver seem fairly robust with 140 wpc and the ability to drive 4-ohm speakers. Whether you need more amplifier power will depend on the sensitivity of the speakers and the volumes you like to listen at. If your speakers are fairly sensitive, (higher than 90 dB sensitivity), and you don't listen louder than "reference level", the amps in the receiver should be more than adequate. OTOH, if you want to listen at or above "reference level" and you have insensitive speakers, (especially if they're low impedance, insensitive speakers), you will probably want more amplifier power.

What speakers are you considering, and what sources do you have? How loud do you want to be able to listen to your system? What's your budget?

Craig

Of course, you could get even better BM capabilities with a separate pre/pro, such as adjustable crossover slopes and independent crossovers for each speaker. However, it would take some serious expertise to utilize these features. Also, they cost a lot more money.

Craig

You are correct, it is very difficult to match all speakers using a pre/pro or even a better AVR. Most center and surrounds speakers do not have the same extension at the low end as the L/R speakers.

Let me take a somwhat extreme case to illustrate. Say you have full range L/R with +/- 3dB down to 35Hz and a center with say +/1 3dB at 80Hz and surrounds with +/-3dB at 125Hz. You can only set one cross-over point for the sub, so the question is what to set it at. For films you might want to set it pretty high (may be even 100Hz) so that you get that low frequency response form the center and surrounds output through the sub, but now you are setting your L/R as small you are loosing the ability of the speaker, but if you set them as large you will get significant overlap and therefore potential bloating of the sound. Also if you now want to listen to two channel music the mix might probably be completely wrong.

Some of the more advanced pre/pros do have room calibration software (limited capability to correct for room problems) incorporated such as the Onkyo mentioned, Integra and a number of others, or the Anthem AVM50 or D2 which uses ARC software to adjust to achieve a theoretical curve for the speakers in the room evironment. I use ARC with an older D1 and I have to say it does a pretty good job of matching my particular B&W 800 series speakers and my sub (which at the moment is not an F113 but may be in a couple of weeks). It does set the crossover pretty high for the sub to enable it to capture the bass from the less bass capable center and surrounds. The velodyne SMS-1 system also attempts to balance between the subs, the front L/R and the room, but does not account for the other speakers.

Bottom line is if you (audioblazer) have money to spend then look for a system with some better room correction capability. If it is Audyssey make sure it is the full implementation. However I would first try to do what you can with what you have, listen to it for quite a while (till the newness wears off!!) and if then you feel that you are not getting what you should out of the F113 take further steps (physical or electronic room correction). The F113 is a very capable sub and so if it does not live up to it's expectations start lookijng at placement of the sub or the room as a potential source of the problem.

You are correct, it is very difficult to match all speakers using a pre/pro or even a better AVR. Most center and surrounds speakers do not have the same extension at the low end as the L/R speakers.

Let me take a somwhat extreme case to illustrate. Say you have full range L/R with +/- 3dB down to 35Hz and a center with say +/1 3dB at 80Hz and surrounds with +/-3dB at 125Hz. You can only set one cross-over point for the sub, so the question is what to set it at. For films you might want to set it pretty high (may be even 100Hz) so that you get that low frequency response form the center and surrounds output through the sub, but now you are setting your L/R as small you are loosing the ability of the speaker, but if you set them as large you will get significant overlap and therefore potential bloating of the sound. Also if you now want to listen to two channel music the mix might probably be completely wrong.
Just to clarify, the Onkyo spec's say it has "independent" crossovers. In this receiver, that means that the user can set a crossover for the L/R's, a different crossover for the CC and yet another crossover for the surrounds. Also, Audyssey measures the actual in-room response of the speakers and reports the actual in-room -3 dB point to the AVR. This is more accurate than using the manufacturer's specified - 3 dB point, because the manufacturer's spec would be an anechoic measurement, (if done correctly.)

Some of the more advanced pre/pros do have room calibration software (limited capability to correct for room problems) incorporated such as the Onkyo mentioned, Integra and a number of others, or the Anthem AVM50 or D2 which uses ARC software to adjust to achieve a theoretical curve for the speakers in the room evironment. I use ARC with an older D1 and I have to say it does a pretty good job of matching my particular B&W 800 series speakers and my sub (which at the moment is not an F113 but may be in a couple of weeks). It does set the crossover pretty high for the sub to enable it to capture the bass from the less bass capable center and surrounds. The velodyne SMS-1 system also attempts to balance between the subs, the front L/R and the room, but does not account for the other speakers.
Your Anthem D1 has "Independent Crossover by Speaker Group":
http://statement.anthemav.com/HTML/Technology/D1/D1_OperatingOver.html#5
You should be able to select a lower crossover for your speakers than the one for your CC and surrounds.

Craig

Just to clarify, the Onkyo spec's say it has "independent" crossovers. In this receiver, that means that the user can set a crossover for the L/R's, a different crossover for the CC and yet another crossover for the surrounds. Also, Audyssey measures the actual in-room response of the speakers and reports the actual in-room -3 dB point to the AVR. This is more accurate than using the manufacturer's specified - 3 dB point, because the manufacturer's spec would be an anechoic measurement, (if done correctly.)


Your Anthem D1 has "Independent Crossover by Speaker Group":
http://statement.anthemav.com/HTML/Technology/D1/D1_OperatingOver.html#5
You should be able to select a lower crossover for your speakers than the one for your CC and surrounds.

Craig

My point is that in all these adjustments you can only set one crosover frequency for the subwoofer. Yes I can set all the other groups (front, center, surround, back) to different independent crossover frequencies and based upon the speaker characterisitics it will send the information below that crossover to the sub, but if I set the crossover on the surrounds say to 125Hz and the sub to 80Hz say, the sub will only have a limited overlap with the surrounds and some of that signal will be lost. Conversly if my front L/R have the crossover set to 40Hz say then I will be getting output from both the sub and L/R between 40Hz and 80Hz which might lead to a bloated sound.

My point is that in all these adjustments you can only set one crosover frequency for the subwoofer. Yes I can set all the other groups (front, center, surround, back) to different independent crossover frequencies and based upon the speaker characterisitics it will send the information below that crossover to the sub, but if I set the crossover on the surrounds say to 125Hz and the sub to 80Hz say, the sub will only have a limited overlap with the surrounds and some of that signal will be lost. Conversly if my front L/R have the crossover set to 40Hz say then I will be getting output from both the sub and L/R between 40Hz and 80Hz which might lead to a bloated sound.
Are you talking about the crossover on the subwoofer itself? If so, and you are using Bass Management in the receiver, the crossover on the subwoofer should be turned all they way up to it's highest point, or (preferably) disabled if possible. If using Bass Management, the receiver's crossover takes care of both the high pass for the speakers and the low pass for the subwoofer. If you invoke an additional crossover at the subwoofer, you are cascading crossovers which can lead to phase issues.

The only other filter you could be talking about is the LFE filter. This is a filter that *only* affects the LFE channel. Setting this filter to 80 Hz will remove any information above 80 Hz from the LFE channel only. It has no effect on the re-directed bass from the main channels. In general, it is best to leave this filter at 120 Hz, as this is the common cutoff for LFE track information. The only time it should be set lower is if you are experiencing problems with sub localization.

(Actually, I just looked at the manual for your D1 and it uses the terminology "Subwoofer/LFE crossover". This Bass Management technique does appear to be different than the Bass Management in most other receivers. It appears that the speaker crossovers are just high pass filters on the main channels. It then adds the re-directed bass to the LFE signal... and then applies the subwoofer/LFE filter to the entire signal. There is a mode to bypass this filter which allows it to pass the full 120 Hz.

The D1 systems seems less flexible than the system that uses a high pass and a low pass on each speaker group. The Bass Management in the Onkyo works like I described above.)

Craig

We Were Soldiers - Chapter 9 - Hot LZ ain't bad neither!

Anyone using fathom's with a Denon AVP or AVR and running Audyssey?

I am curious about the following:

What is the subwoofer trim level setting in the AVP / AVR
What is the volume setting on the fathom (variable or reference)
If the above setting is on variable, what is the dial setting? (i.e. - 09:00 O'Clock)

Thanks.

Mark

I like heavy bass.
So after reading Carl Kennedy's blog, I tried a high crossover (2 F113's) with my Mcintosh LS 360's speakers. I set it high for weeks, just to let my brain adapt.

What I found is going to 60 hz today (again), it sounded much better then even 80hz not to mention 120hz.
Much less, Sub bass rumble, hanging (lack of a better adjective) around, during bass guitar and drum parts, with the instrument notes not sounding as short, at 60hz.
Hard to explain.
Much cleaner/ airy at 60hz crossover on my system.

The thought of a F113's playing at 120hz and lower, relieving my mains seemed reasonable, but the mains do a better job on their own at 60hz. In my case anyways. Not even close.

I am seriously considering adding a second F-113 (they are addictive) and I am curious about setup. The two subs would not be co-located as each sub will be just outside each front speaker. Would I want to run one as a slave? or would I want to run a splitter and have them both in master? I will also be using a SMS-1.

That sounds right from what I have read here a number of time, and I'm sure a few more experienced with dual Fathoms will chime in... run 1 as Master, the second as slave and then run the setup on the ARO and let it EQ your room. Then run the SMS-1 and EQ your room again. That should be quite impressive.

Didn't you just replace your Dali's with new speakers.... I missed what you got for replacement. Revel's..?

You can do it either way, Rydenfan... will there be any need for stereo subs in your setup?

You can do it either way, Rydenfan... will there be any need for stereo subs in your setup?

Possibly. I use a separate 2 channel pre-amp with HT bypass, but I am considering experimenting with them in 2 channel listening. Would that make a difference in setting them up?

That sounds right from what I have read here a number of time, and I'm sure a few more experienced with dual Fathoms will chime in... run 1 as Master, the second as slave and then run the setup on the ARO and let it EQ your room. Then run the SMS-1 and EQ your room again. That should be quite impressive.

Didn't you just replace your Dali's with new speakers.... I missed what you got for replacement. Revel's..?

Actually the new I went with the new Kef Reference, the 205/2's fronts and 202/2 center all in Piano Black just like my JL :D

I like heavy bass.
So after reading Carl Kennedy's blog, I tried a high crossover (2 F113's) with my Mcintosh LS 360's speakers. I set it high for weeks, just to let my brain adapt.

What I found is going to 60 hz today (again), it sounded much better then even 80hz not to mention 120hz.
Much less, Sub bass rumble, hanging (lack of a better adjective) around, during bass guitar and drum parts, with the instrument notes not sounding as short, at 60hz.
Hard to explain.
Much cleaner/ airy at 60hz crossover on my system.

The thought of a F113's playing at 120hz and lower, relieving my mains seemed reasonable, but the mains do a better job on their own at 60hz. In my case anyways. Not even close.

I find its tough to generalize about this topic with so much depending on how well you integrate the mains with the subs. Besides the usual room related placement issues how well the subs are in phase with the mains determines how well the upper harmonics well above the crossover point sound. If the subs are somewhat out of phase with your speaker's woofers or mids you get that "hanging" bass you describe above.

I agree with what C. Kennedy suggests since you really improve the amp headroom for the mains by moving more of the upper bass duties to the more capable Fathoms. However the higher up you cross the more difficult it becomes to get the subs and speakers phase in synch especially at the crossover point and above. Going with a low crossover sidesteps the problem with out of phase woofers at higher bass frequencies where its more audible. However if you persevere with getting the sub/sat system in phase and room resonance is on your side, then the rewards from improving amp headroom in the mains are substantial and overall the sound will be better .

I'm running stereo FL113s in my HT crossed at 100hz and it sounds much better than 60hz. In another stereo system, I'm crossed higher up at 250hz using a Bryston 10B sub electronic crossover and the increased amp headroom really shines through as more detailed tighter bass and better resolution in the mids and highs. Dialling in the right phase and slope was critical and took some time.

Actually the new I went with the new Kef Reference, the 205/2's fronts and 202/2 center all in Piano Black just like my JL :D

Nice buddy.... I trust you are enjoying them... Better then the Dali's?

"Besides the usual room related placement issues how well the subs are in phase with the mains determines how well the upper harmonics well above the crossover point sound. If the subs are somewhat out of phase with your speaker's woofers or mids you get that "hanging" bass you describe above."

You could be right. But know that I did give it a lot of effort and time in regard to phase and sub location, in my designated media room. The f113's played too tight compared to the LS360's at higher hz.
I just read the Gothom review and they mentioned the similar thing. So it may hold true for the F113's too.
Dont get me wrong I love the F113's and am planning on buying 2 more for a different room with Sonus Faber mains.
I just prefer a full range speaker performing lower to its abilities then the handshake of the f113.
The logic of a great sub playing higher xo to relieve the mains made sense. But did not work in my case.

I'm running stereo FL113s in my HT crossed at 100hz and it sounds much better than 60hz. In another stereo system, I'm crossed higher up at 250hz using a Bryston 10B sub electronic crossover and the increased amp headroom really shines through as more detailed tighter bass and better resolution in the mids and highs. Dialling in the right phase and slope was critical and took some time.
Interesting... the F113's are -3 dB at 127 Hz and -10 dB at 154 Hz, (manufacturer's spec's.)
http://home.jlaudio.com/products_subs.php?prod_id=371
How are you getting them to reproduce this high?

Craig

Hi Craig, I didn't say they were JL113s were in other stereo system, they are in the HT...as you pointed out they can't go that high. In the other stereo rig I'm using a pair of Totem Shamans, each speaker consisting of a 10" woofer enclosure and a 4 driver stack in the other enclosure. So I've biamped them and find they sound better the higher I cross and with a greater slope. Normally they are 1st order (6db/octave) crossed at 220hz. They sound better at third order (18db/octave) crossed above 220.

Same principle Kennedy suggests.

Oh, OK, I didn't pick that up. Sounds logical.

Craig

I am seriously considering adding a second F-113 (they are addictive) and I am curious about setup. The two subs would not be co-located as each sub will be just outside each front speaker. Would I want to run one as a slave? or would I want to run a splitter and have them both in master? I will also be using a SMS-1.

You can do it either way, Rydenfan... will there be any need for stereo subs in your setup?

Possibly. I use a separate 2 channel pre-amp with HT bypass, but I am considering experimenting with them in 2 channel listening. Would that make a difference in setting them up?


I need to order the proper cabling this weekend so I would love to hear some thoughts about what is the best way for me to do this...

In the Manual (http://home.jlaudio.com/pdfs/10485.pdf)....pg 20 & 21 You just need to run an "Balanced XLR cable from the Master Sub "output to slave" to the left or mono XLR input on the slave sub. Order the proper length "Appropriate balanced cables with XLR terminations"

“Output to Slave” Connector
If you are operating more than one Fathom subwoofer in one home theater system, you will designate one Fathom as the Master (see page 20), and then feed signal from it to the remaining “Slave” Fathoms via this balanced XLR output. The “Output to Slave” cable can be connected to the “Left or Mono” balanced XLR input on the next Fathom. When a Fathom is in “Slave” Mode, its “Output to Slave” connection can be used to pass signal to further Fathoms operating in “Slave” mode.
The “Output to Slave” connector is designed to be used as follows:
1) From the “Master” Fathom’s “Output to Slave” connector to the first “Slave” Fathom’s “Left or Mono” XLR balanced input.
2) From the first “Slave” Fathom’s “Output to Slave” connector to the second “Slave” Fathom’s “Left or Mono” XLR balanced input.
3) From the second “Slave” Fathom’s “Output to Slave” connector to the third “Slave” Fathom’s “Left or Mono” XLR balanced input. Etc, etc. (up to ten Fathoms may be connected in this configuration).Appropriate balanced cables with XLR terminations are available from your JL Audio dealer and are not included with the Fathom.
Technical Notes:
• The “Output to Slave” signal carries any signal processing selected on the Master Fathom (including the Master Level setting and A.R.O. processing) to further Fathoms operating in “Slave” mode.
• From Fathoms operating in “Slave” mode, the “Output to Slave” signal is an exact, buffered replica of the balanced input signal, making this method of signal distribution preferable to using
Y-adapters or splitters.
• Use only shielded, connection cables with high quality
XLR connectors for Master/Slave connection. Never use unbalanced cables with adaptors.Hope that helps buddy...

Thanks buddy!!

I just wanted to make sure that running one as master and one as slave made sense, and that I should do that over a y-splitter and run them both in master.

Thanks buddy!!

I just wanted to make sure that running one as master and one as slave made sense, and that I should do that over a y-splitter and run them both in master.

Glad to be of service... :)

They will work either way, XLR to slave, or just using the RCA's out of 2 outputs of your SMS-1, but I personally would go with option 1, and let the Fathoms work together as 1 mind (ARO) and then use your SMS to tweak the EQ further after ARO has had a chance to do its thing.

I am seriously considering adding a second F-113 (they are addictive) and I am curious about setup. The two subs would not be co-located as each sub will be just outside each front speaker. Would I want to run one as a slave? or would I want to run a splitter and have them both in master? I will also be using a SMS-1.

Rydenfan....did you pull the trigger on a second fathom? I run dual F-113s via XLR in master/slave setup.
Obviously, I'd be interested on your thoughts if/when you get them integrated in your 2-channel setup :cool:.

Cheers,

Can someone send me a PM on the going rate for the F113's now?

Thanks!

A great movie to give the subs a workout is the Incredible Hulk.

What are some of you doing to measure 75db reference from the F113? I'm using an SPL but as we know, not the best tool for a sub. Any better methods besides an SMS1? :)

JL:

Along the same lines as above. Would appreciate your comments on the following. I have a JL sub--a fathom. I note within the manual that JL Audio recommends setting speakers to "small" for bass management when running a sub.

My main speakers and center channel are Vienna Acoustics. For bass management they recommend that the speakers be set to "large" noting that the Viennas are designed for bass reproduction. My mains go down to about 30hz.

What are your thoughts on bass management with a fathom and Vienna Acoustics, if any, as regards to setting the speakers to "small" or "large"?

Thank you.

Ese'


I've got two pairs of VA Mahlers for fronts and rears plus two (2) F113 Fathoms for the LFE. I currently have the speakers set for small (direct use of blu-ray player's analog outputs for HDMI-challenged multichannel analog preamp).

I would normally have the main/rear speakers running full-range except I have an as yet unresolved system integration issue: the main and rear amps will cry uncle and shut down on "bass peaks" if I play uncompressed PCM or DTS HD audio movie sound tracks loud enough with speakers set to "large"; I'm hoping this is an issue with the player's analog stages (clipping?) but it very well could be the amp/speaker combination cannot handle the transient power requirements (I have tried different pairs of beefy 400W/channel (800/4 ohms) amps (Classe CA-400 and Parasound JC1). There have been no issues when using a pre/pro for "plain-jane" DVD-era DD/DTS decoding or for stereo music playback.

I don't use the subs for 2-channel music.

Side note: the F113 in the back is sitting on top of the 2nd row "stage"; The "tactile" feeling can get pretty intense sitting in the 2nd row. I maybe should have filled the stage with sand and/or built a gigantic sub into the stage.

If I were to split the feed into the JL in order to "wake" it out of sleep mode more readily, would I need to reduce the level by 3 db in order to conform with Audyssey's findings? In other words, does splitting the feed increase the line level input?

If I were to split the feed into the JL in order to "wake" it out of sleep mode more readily, would I need to reduce the level by 3 db in order to conform with Audyssey's findings? In other words, does splitting the feed increase the line level input?

I assume you mean installing a Y adapter into the L and R inputs of the sub? If so, I just installed one over the weekend and had to drop the output by about 3-4db when I recalibrated.

what are some of you doing to measure 75db reference from the f113? I'm using an spl but as we know, not the best tool for a sub. Any better methods besides an sms1? :)rew. Etf, xtz :)

Side note: the F113 in the back is sitting on top of the 2nd row "stage"; The "tactile" feeling can get pretty intense sitting in the 2nd row. I maybe should have filled the stage with sand and/or built a gigantic sub into the stage.


Auralex Subdude.....?

Another great movie for experiencing your JL subwoofer is Live Free or Die Hard on Blu-Ray. First rate picture quality and soundtrack with lots of LFE. There are sequences with rapid fire LFE that really showcase not only how low these babies go, but their speed and accuracy as well. Pretty enjoyable film, too. Lots of fun all around.

Hi Craig, Mike, tq for your response to my thread. Somehow I didnt notice the response.
Currently I m using Revel Voice as my center ( good), Vr4sr as my L/F (good) , Kef 9000Ace ,as my rear and surround ( not so great comparatively). I dont thk my Denon AVR 3805 is doing justice to it. Most important, I m waiting to buy profile 2 bluray which is not available in Malaysia yet. Incline towards panasonic dmp bd55. I prefer to go separate with processor/multichannel. Problem is that there dont seems to be much choice for processor with DTS MA and TrueHD particular where I m from. As for multichannel is considering ATI 3005. Read about it. Spec seems interesting. Incline towards separate process/amp due to my experience with 2 channel integrated amp and separates. Off course it would be cheaper with Onkyo AVR or the not so cheap Denon AVR. Anyway, will take my time sourcing. Fathom 113 really blown me away when I tested it at my dealer showroom with Meridian DSP speakers. I m glad I both a pair of it
Am also looking into integrated it with my Vr4Sr speaker but unfortunately dont knw how. Guess I got to prowl this thread more often to get the necessary info.
Happy listening

I meant integrating

I have noticed putting my subs (F113's) staggered on opposite, side walls gives a better sound experience, then having them next to the front speakers facing the listening position for HT.
80hz for HT.
60Hz for music.

Anyone else find this to be true?

I have noticed putting my subs (F113's) staggered on opposite, side walls gives a better sound experience, then having them next to the front speakers facing the listening position for HT.
80hz for HT.
60Hz for music.

Anyone else find this to be true?

Check this out --- This is the best subwoofer placement study I've seen....


http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf

I have some dedicated 20 amp circuits for my tube amps and the 113. Any one know of a surge supressor that is supported on 20 amp sevice. I own a Monster Power SW200, but it requires 2 outlets and rated for 15a only. Looked at the Panamax product but it is also rated for 15a.

Thanks,

Lou

Panamax and APC make 20Amp units but they are pricey and bulky. BTW, you only need 20A units if the load is 20A. More most applications, you can use a 15A unit on a 20A outlet. I do.

I have some dedicated 20 amp circuits for my tube amps and the 113. Any one know of a surge supressor that is supported on 20 amp sevice. I own a Monster Power SW200, but it requires 2 outlets and rated for 15a only. Looked at the Panamax product but it is also rated for 15a.

Thanks,

Lou

I use a panamax 5400-PM with my dedicated 20 amp circuit (2 x F113s).

I have some dedicated 20 amp circuits for my tube amps and the 113. Any one know of a surge supressor that is supported on 20 amp sevice. I own a Monster Power SW200, but it requires 2 outlets and rated for 15a only. Looked at the Panamax product but it is also rated for 15a.

Thanks,

Lou

I don't know that I'd "waste" an "audiophile" surge protector on a subwoofer. And if I did, it might be one of those "wholehouse" surge protectors that are rumored to exist. I'd be fairly careful about surge protectors, which might "suppress" the bass transients that your subwoofer really should be producing.

I'm using a Sound Applications Reference linestage connected to dedicated 20A circuit breaker for power conditioning, but it's only for source players and preamp stages; My main amps are also tied to separate, dedicated 20A circuit breakers with no surge protection/line conditioning (I'm paranoid about transient response "dampened" by surge protection/conditioning), but that's probably overkill. Amps probably aren't beefy enough to "deserve" 20 amp service but who knows what I'll pick up in the future.

BrickWall makes some 20amp surge suppressors, with a unique technology.

looks like the F212 has been officially added to the site line-up

http://home.jlaudio.com/products_subs.php?prod_id=375

Panamax 4400-20 has 4 always on outlets, and 4 switched (by 12v trigger) outlets. It's ~ $250. I plan to use it to have my processor turn on my amps since the amps themselves don't support a 12v trigger.

I'm having 20amp circuit(s) put in. The question I have is how many do I need?

I have ~300wpc for 5 channels, plus two f113's, plus modest electronics (ps3, integra, tivo). I suppose I could add up all the max wattages, but that seams like overkill. JL specs 2500w for the f113 amps making even a dedicated 20amp circuit seem slightly inadequate, but what do the f113's run realsitically? Are 2 f113's on one 20amp circuit reasonable? Or could I even realistically run my whole system that one circuit as well?

On page 14 of the Fathom manual it says:
Do not use a power strip switch, switched outlet or any other external switch as these may result in undesirable and potentially damaging transient pops
I almost though of using a remote controlled switch like you wanted to do because I don't like to have equipment power on all the time.

Thanks for the warning, but I wasn't planning on putting the subs on the switched outputs since they will autosense and come on. I have QSC amps for my other speakers and their app eng said it wouldn't be a problem. I should probably test with a pair of cheap speakers first, though, in case he is wrong.

New pic of my setup :)
http://avforum.no/gallery/files/1/7/0/5/6/nov_08.JPG

Now that is a serious setup.... very nice stevnik.....

Not running a center i see, though there is not much in the way of room for one just yet....

Hoping someone could add their thoughts...

My sub in my dedicated theater has about 10db more output on the second row vs the front row. The back row of seats are on a 10inch riser as opposed to the rest of the room which is a cement slab. The F113 is located up front with the main speakers. Room is about 12x20x8. Any thoughts on the cause? I'm assuming it's because the chairs are on risers vs a cement slab but I can't be sure.

Tony

Hoping someone could add their thoughts...

My sub in my dedicated theater has about 10db more output on the second row vs the front row. The back row of seats are on a 10inch riser as opposed to the rest of the room which is a cement slab. The F113 is located up front with the main speakers. Room is about 12x20x8. Any thoughts on the cause? I'm assuming it's because the chairs are on risers vs a cement slab but I can't be sure.

Tony

Check this out....

http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf

Check this out....

http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf

I've read this. Great article... I'm just wondering if the riser is a contributing factor. (vibrating riser vs concrete slab).

Where can I have the best deal on the F113? Please PM

I've read this. Great article... I'm just wondering if the riser is a contributing factor. (vibrating riser vs concrete slab).

I was just thinking that if you are getting 10db less output from your sub in one area of the room versus another, you might try different placements for your subwoofer or try adding another sub-woofer to smooth out the response.

If someone can pm me the best place to purchase the JL sub, I would appreciate it. Thanks!

Hoping someone could add their thoughts...

My sub in my dedicated theater has about 10db more output on the second row vs the front row. The back row of seats are on a 10inch riser as opposed to the rest of the room which is a cement slab. The F113 is located up front with the main speakers. Room is about 12x20x8. Any thoughts on the cause? I'm assuming it's because the chairs are on risers vs a cement slab but I can't be sure.

Tony

Yes, it's hard to guess. Perhaps you'd like to get the XTZ Room analyzer. It is easy to use and will show the best way of placing the speakers, listening positions and so on.

I just got this sub today. This is replacing my svs pb 10 which i am selling. We will see the improvement.

I have been playing with sub position and found the best position for the sub is directly behind the speaker which means the sub will be out of sight...something I really didn't want to do. The JL subs are "show me" subs NOT "hide me" subs. Is it a bad idea to put my speakers only a few inches away from the sub. The sub will be firing directly into the back of the speakers (the speakers would partially block the sub, but I thought this would not affect the sound of the sub since it's non directional) Would this placement cause damage to my speakers? Since my newest toys (speakers) are $7.5K a pair, I rather ask this dumb question now than rather be sorry later if somehow for whatever reason this damages some internal components of the speaker or something.

Any suggestion to setup JL Audio sub with audyssey

explain more

F. If the sub has an EQ system, use it to tame large peaks before calibrating with Audyssey.

a. In these situations, the built-in subwoofer EQ systems might be useful.
2. Velodyne’s SMS and JL Audio’s ARO are two examples of EQ systems.

Do I run the ARO then Audyssey?

Any suggestion to setup JL Audio sub with audyssey

explain more

F. If the sub has an EQ system, use it to tame large peaks before calibrating with Audyssey.

a. In these situations, the built-in subwoofer EQ systems might be useful.
2. Velodyne’s SMS and JL Audio’s ARO are two examples of EQ systems.

Do I run the ARO then Audyssey?
I am not using the ARO on my dual F112's. I just use Audyssey. Audyssey is a multi-point measurement and multi-frequency EQ. It also corrects for time-based problems, (ringing, overhang and long decay times). ARO is a single point, single frequency EQ. It could improve one peak at one listening position. However, it could make other listening positions worse. It may or may not improve the Audyssey EQ; however cascading EQ's, (using both ARO and Audyssey), could cause some phase anomalies. The time it takes for ARO to process the signal, (milliseconds), will delay the signal relative to the mains. This can be corrected somewhat by the "Distance" setting of the subwoofer, but why bother?

My suggestion would be to try Audyssey by itself first. If you're not happy with that, try ARO by itself. If you're still not happy, try ARO + Audyssey, Run ARO first, and then be aware that Audyssey will set the "Distance" of the sub further away that it really is. Do *not* change it back to the actual distance measurement.

Be sure to run Audyssey according to the recommended procedure:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=795421&page=191
This document is updated regularly and is endorsed by Chris Kyriakakis, the Chief Technical Officer and Co-Founder of Audyssey.

BTW, which version of Audyssey do you have?

Craig

I am not using the ARO on my dual F112's. I just use Audyssey. Audyssey is a multi-point measurement and multi-frequency EQ. It also corrects for time-based problems, (ringing, overhang and long decay times). ARO is a single point, single frequency EQ. It could improve one peak at one listening position. However, it could make other listening positions worse. It may or may not improve the Audyssey EQ; however cascading EQ's, (using both ARO and Audyssey), could cause some phase anomalies. The time it takes for ARO to process the signal, (milliseconds), will delay the signal relative to the mains. This can be corrected somewhat by the "Distance" setting of the subwoofer, but why bother?

My suggestion would be to try Audyssey by itself first. If you're not happy with that, try ARO by itself. If you're still not happy, try ARO + Audyssey, Run ARO first, and then be aware that Audyssey will set the "Distance" of the sub further away that it really is. Do *not* change it back to the actual distance measurement.

Be sure to run Audyssey according to the recommended procedure:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=795421&page=191
This document is updated regularly and is endorsed by Chris Kyriakakis, the Chief Technical Officer and Co-Founder of Audyssey.

BTW, which version of Audyssey do you have?

Craig

thanks

Be sure to run Audyssey according to the recommended procedure:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=795421&page=191
This document is updated regularly and is endorsed by Chris Kyriakakis, the Chief Technical Officer and Co-Founder of Audyssey.

Craig

Great explanation, Craig. You make me re-think my use of ARO and Audyssey combined...

I am a few weeks behind right now, but I do update the Audyssey Setup Guide when new information becomes available or modifications are suggested and agreed upon.

Mark

Hoping someone could add their thoughts...

My sub in my dedicated theater has about 10db more output on the second row vs the front row. The back row of seats are on a 10inch riser as opposed to the rest of the room which is a cement slab. The F113 is located up front with the main speakers. Room is about 12x20x8. Any thoughts on the cause? I'm assuming it's because the chairs are on risers vs a cement slab but I can't be sure.

Tony

Is the front row near the midpoint of the room? I suspect it is. In that case the center of the room in a natural null.
It is where the bass waves collide and cancel each other out. I have a similar situation, there is no way to correct it. The front row is a good place for grandma to sit ;)

Is the front row near the midpoint of the room? I suspect it is. In that case the center of the room in a natural null.
It is where the bass waves collide and cancel each other out. I have a similar situation, there is no way to correct it. The front row is a good place for grandma to sit ;)

It's not dead center but pretty close. After a quick measure, dead center is about where the cup holders are on the seats. I was aware that dead center was a null but my ears are not in the center of the room. Unless dead center is not a science?

Having an odd issue.... I'm recalibrating my system after a recent upgrade of my old speakers and I noticed I'm not able to get much more than a 65db reading from my F113even at max levels. All the other speaker read ok at 75db.. any idea what could be happening?

Receiver set speakers to small, and crossed over at 80hz or what ever....?

Receiver set speakers to small, and crossed over at 80hz or what ever....?
Yep.. didn't change anything. Speakers set to 80hz.. The only change I did make was set the LFE to 120hz, speakers set to 80hz all around. I think I need to test by ear. Maybe something went wrong with the RS SPL.

Yep.. didn't change anything. Speakers set to 80hz.. The only change I did make was set the LFE to 120hz, speakers set to 80hz all around. I think I need to test by ear. Maybe something went wrong with the RS SPL.
Some receivers allow you to set a maximum output or loudness for the sub level....maybe you turned that on?

Some receivers allow you to set a maximum output or loudness for the sub level....maybe you turned that on?

Turns out I had the SPL weighting to A. Must have switched when I dropped it.. all is well. :)

I have fairly capable full range speakers (B&W 803S) what is the recommended xover to set the mains and my F113?

Thanks all!

I have fairly capable full range speakers (B&W 803S) what is the recommended xover to set the mains and my F113?

Thanks all!
In general, 80 Hz. However, try them all from 40 to 100 and see what works best.

Craig

stenvik - I imagine those 802Ds sound great without two subs, what frequency are you crossing at?

I'm very close to getting a second F113 for my room but I thought I would ask for some quick opinions from those who upgraded from 1 sub to dual subs.

Room is about 13x20. I have one F113 up front on the left side of the room by the mains. SMS1 shows pretty flat results. Some minor peaks but nothing to cry about. What my primary goal is smooth bass response but I'm really hoping a second sub will increase tactile response and move a lot more air in the room so I can really feel the bass in the mid to lower freq.

Thoughts?

Tony, a second sub adds 3-6db to the output but I found that the tactile improvement with 2 subs was much improved beyond what the numbers said. Plus the response should be smoother.

Tony, a second sub adds 3-6db to the output but I found that the tactile improvement with 2 subs was much improved beyond what the numbers said. Plus the response should be smoother.

Thanka Bogg. I'm assuming the results are improved different than just boosting a single sub by 3-6db?

Thanka Bogg. I'm assuming the results are improved different than just boosting a single sub by 3-6db?

Yes the results are different. In my situation it definitely improved the response in the room(20'x15') and "tactile" feel" throughout! I thought I was going to crack a window while watching Master and Commander. ;)

Fuuuu$#$! After waiting 2 months to get my balanced power transformer back I have just encountered what looks like another product failure. One of the F113s is making a "rattling" noise, even at low volume. I think someone else had this problem on this thread a long time ago, I don't remember what the cause was. Even if I disconnect the sub from the source and just run the demo mode it does the same rattling thing. The other 3 don't have this problem. Not impressed.