well said nhtfred. Myself, I have beyond a shadow of a doubt these subs are the real deal for music. I was going to settle on a $2000ish CAD sub myself - now im thinking about waiting and saving more for something like the f113. Someone on the klipsch forums who ive talked to for several years now and who is a sub nut... (has 24 subs in his home) had this to say about it in his initial impression comparing it to the RT12-d flagship from klipsch and the Seismic 12.:


"Next the f113 came,it is capable all the way to 20hz and will shake the room when need be like these two cannot even paired! The W7 woofer can move a damn lot of air.Its excursion looks to be twice of the Klipsch and Paradigm(this could be just the impression mind you). The thing is this sub disapears leaving no signature,it simply fills fills to below human hearing with authority and finesse. AMAZING!

I trust my ears,and they tell me the JL f113 is a direct contender for the Velodyne HGS/DD 15 and 18! There is no other way around this,it is the finest compact sub made.

The Rocket and SVS micro subs are pure jokes,just look at each aspect,from woofer,to amp,to audio EQ to cabinet integrity to parts quality and simply equisite attention to detail.It beats the other small subs where it counts.Expensive,you bet worth each penny.

Note it is in no way fair to compare subwoofers prices several times less.I am giving my impressions about the subs not based on price.The Fathom and Ghotam subs are as good as it gets they compare directly with Aerial,Wilson and the elite of the super high end for built quality.As good as it gets,for only $3000,a bargain.Superb and I recommend them to anyone who has invested BIG in upscale monitors or mains.S&V is targeted at the mid fier just read their reviews...SPL SPL SPL...wow tells alot about quality.Another Setero Review type mag.When I run out of toilet paper I will buy S&V.
"

And later he went on to add this:

"The JL f133,simply a killer compact(yes it is very compact)subwoofer,at 130lbs for such a smallish cabinet it is one solid chunk.I tell ya people I will post pics of subs and take higher rez pics of the JL f113 so you can see its beauty(it is a product to behold),quality is a few classes above both the Seismic 12 and the RT-12t(and those two are not what I would call cheapies).

The only(ONLY)subwoofer I own that matches the overall quality is the Aerial SW12,a bit larger,weighs about the same.This time vented,dare I say underported(and tuned quite low).I will have to make an A/B test here too. Velodyne's HGS/DD subs are not up to the same level of parts quality,not even close!! And they range up to $5000,taking the DD12 it retails no less than the f113.So you get the picture.

I simply cannot stress enough,JL Audio has a real jewel of a sub here,both on paper and in use,as well as...static display.Total package you do not see often."

I'm hopeing he will make an appearance and share some more thoughts on the JL, his knowledge and experience with high end subs/equip is quite extensive.

If I remember correctly hes owned just about every line of Klipsch,Sunfire, Revel b15,aerial sw12,most of the expensive velos, dynaudio, Rel etc


Obviously take everything with a grain of salt, but when he compares it to the Aerial sw12 for quality, you know the Fathom113 isn't your regular run of the mill overpriced fancy sealed compact sub.

The responses and reviews on this product so far are extremely positive. I hope JL gets something up and running for Vancouver BC canada... Also Manville maybe you can investigate a bit for me... So far JL has been extremely slow with replying to my emails, kind of disapointing when you have a video on your website saying how important the customers are to the company.

Regards,

Ed

Canadian distribution is just beginning. Our Canadian distributor is GemSen Distribution in Concord, ON. Please feel free to contact them 905-660-3110 or sales@gemsen.com


here you go

Ed, feel free to e-mail me directly at msmith@jlaudio. com

I will make sure your inquiries are answered.

:rolleyes:
Like New27 posted, It's not exactly something that can be measured accurately.
Just about everything the sub is made from to how its constructed plays a roll in how it will sound.

Impulse response is only one of the many things to look at here... Decay, Dynamics, Linearity... amung others. However you can make all the measurements in the world, but when it comes down to it, you listen with your ears not numbers on a peice of paper with your eyes. Graphs and numbers don't tell the whole story on how a sub will sound musically, They do help in narrowing it down though.

I never said any such thing, but he said:

as I know there are no reliable tests to measure such a characteristic

Do you not agree that Impulse response is a reliable test that measures the accuracy of a subwoofer?

I agree that every part of the sub plays a part in how it sounds, I haven't said otherwise.

I am not trying to start anything here, I'd really like to find out if there is any correlation between measurements and opinion.

If it isn't frequency response, distortion, group delay, impulse response...then what is it? (I am assuming a resonance-free cabinet of course...)

Spectral decay is measurable.

Linearity...with respect to what...the drivers linear excursion capability?

Dynamics....you mean output capability?

I find it fascinating that there is apparently no way to judge a subs musical ability using tests or knowledge of the driver being used and the alignment).

and then there is the room!

I find it fascinating that there is apparently no way to judge a subs musical ability using tests or knowledge of the driver being used and the alignment).

I find it fascinating that there people who think that listening to a speaker (and a subwoofer is a speaker) is not the final arbiter of its sound quality. ;)

I find it fascinating that there people who think that listening to a speaker (and a subwoofer is a speaker) is not the final arbiter of its sound quality. ;)


I couldn't have said it any better!


And actually I used your ears first before my own to make the purchasing decision.

"If it measures good and sounds bad, you're not measuring the right thing."
"If it sound great and measures bad, you're not measuring the right thing, either."
- Paul Klipsch

And actually I used your ears first before my own to make the purchasing decision.

I hoped you signed the waiver first ... :D

anyone watch the HD-DVD version of MI:3 yet? If you havent, you may want to let your Fathoms play with it.

Not yet, mine was just shipped from Amazon last night. I really am looking forward to these 3 films.

anyone watch the HD-DVD version of MI:3 yet? If you havent, you may want to let your Fathoms play with it.

Tonight, My son and I have year #3 of a Halloween tradition: Shaun of the Dead will commence in 30 minutes ... :eek:

GREAT bass movie. And it looks like I need a new DVD player ... :)

Not yet, mine was just shipped from Amazon last night. I really am looking forward to these 3 films.


You bought yours from Amazon.com :confused: Or did I misunderstand...

You bought yours from Amazon.com :confused: Or did I misunderstand...


Yes, I pre ordered it at the beginning of Sept. Great price, free shipping.

I find it fascinating that there people who think that listening to a speaker (and a subwoofer is a speaker) is not the final arbiter of its sound quality. ;)

Not this again.... ;)

There are people in here who are obviously going to purchase the JLs without listening to them first, what would you say to them?

Again..I can't fathom how there is no single correlation between measurements and the subjective "tightness" or "musicality" of a sub. Have you considered researching this at all with your test equipment and the numerous subs you have?

Its almost as if there is some type of voodoo going on...some magic that gives a subwoofer its musicality. Truly astonishing....

I have no issue with people listening to a speaker or sub to see if they like its sound quality Craig, and you know that. I honestly want to know if there is a relationship between measurements and this "tightness" that everyone talks about.

Sorry to bother you folks, though. Back to your regularly scheduled program... :)

Not this again.... ;)

There are people in here who are obviously going to purchase the JLs without listening to them first, what would you say to them?

Again..I can't fathom how there is no single correlation between measurements and the subjective "tightness" or "musicality" of a sub. Have you considered researching this at all with your test equipment and the numerous subs you have?

Its almost as if there is some type of voodoo going on...some magic that gives a subwoofer its musicality. Truly astonishing....

I have no issue with people listening to a speaker or sub to see if they like its sound quality Craig, and you know that. I honestly want to know if there is a relationship between measurements and this "tightness" that everyone talks about.

Sorry to bother you folks, though. Back to your regularly scheduled program... :)

Sorry to bother you, Will, but perhaps if you, rather than entertaining us with wonderfully descriptive posts like "do tell", decided to be nice, you might get a warmer welcome.

Heck, someone might even believe you are sincere that you are trying to participate in a meaningful manner.

Naaaaaaaaaaah .... ;)

Back to your regularly scheduled ... whatever it is you were doing before you interrupted a friendly thread ... :D

I was going to get SVS, but then I was pointed towards Veodyne. I was about to pull the trigger on aVeodyne, and then someone talked about this new JL Audio sub.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8786995#post8786995

Very interesting!

These quotes stood out too.

"The JL Audio Fathom f113 is the single best A/V product I have experienced. The improvement it made to my home-theater system was stunning. I’ve never heard better."

“This is definitely the "it" sub of the moment. Velodyne DD-18s are soooo 2005”

The MSRP is a bit much from what I've found on google. Is any of this in the $1000'ish price range? If not, I might go back to Velodyne.

Not voodoo my friend, ART!!!! MUSIC!!!!!

Wild,

I believe there may be a correlation there, I'm just not sure we've found it, again, I think you may get some interesting views on this subject on some of the car audio forums.

In any case, I digress, overtime calls, need to find some way to pay for this little
monster:)

Sorry to bother you, Will, but perhaps if you, rather than entertaining us with wonderfully descriptive posts like "do tell", decided to be nice, you might get a warmer welcome.

Heck, someone might even believe you are sincere that you are trying to participate in a meaningful manner.

Naaaaaaaaaaah .... ;)

Back to your regularly scheduled ... whatever it is you were doing before you interrupted a friendly thread ... :D

Oh man, "do tell" was offensive to some of you? :D

I honestly meant that in a nice way. It was just easier to say "Do tell." rather than type out a lengthy unnecessary response. The guy acted like he knew, so I thought he could tell me. No harm done, right?

Must I send flowers and chocolate to the various posters like yourself before I post anything? ;)

If any of my remarks have been disparaging, I am sorry. ;)

Not voodoo my friend, ART!!!! MUSIC!!!!!

Wild,

I believe there may be a correlation there, I'm just not sure we've found it, again, I think you may get some interesting views on this subject on some of the car audio forums.

In any case, I digress, overtime calls, need to find some way to pay for this little
monster:)

Thanks for the kind post. :cool:

I'll just ask elsewhere since no one here is interested, and thats too bad, cause Craig has all of the subs and equipment to make it happen. ;)

Oh man, "do tell" was offensive to some of you? :D

I honestly meant that in a nice way. It was just easier to say "Do tell." rather than type out a lengthy unnecessary response. The guy acted like he knew, so I thought he could tell me. No harm done, right?

Must I send flowers and chocolate to the various posters like yourself before I post anything? ;)

If any of my remarks have been disparaging, I am sorry. ;)

Offensive ? No, just boring.

Offensive ? No, just boring.

I love you too. :D

thats what we need, more audiophile man love...... this maybe the wrong forum though

Shaun of the Dead was its usual hilarious self last night. The Fathoms keep getting more impressive. After the movie, I watched some scenes contrasting the 113 to the Plus/2 ... and the 113 not only is more articulate, it also helps place the soundstage better.

There is a scene late in the movie where the bar owner has become a Zombie, and the "good guys" are pummeling him with pool cues. With the 113's in the system you could hear which side of the zombie was being hit, and you could feel it, too. With the Plus/2, you felt the thud, with none of the underlying directional abilities.

This points to a faster transient response and excellent linearity ... in plain language, it means the subwoofers and mains are producing sound simultaneously, and accurately, together.

The Fathom 113 pair also delivers in the WOW factor. Shaun of the Dead is full of some amazing bass tracks, and the 113's absolutely shake the room, and they do so even at moderate levels. Most subs require the sound track be played too loud, with the subs too hot, in order to get a nice tactile response.

The 113's don't require this.

They are SO good, I am changing what the plans for our final Soundsplinter design will be - look for the 2 15 inch drivers to be in a sealed cabinet.

If we can get CLOSE to the quality of a Fathom 113, I will be pretty happy.

To the design team on the 113's ... Congratulations. Your 2 year's worth of work is delivering the goods. This weekend, your 113 will get a one on one with the VTF-3 HO, then it will get a week against the DD-18.

May the best subwoofer win ... :)

So Craig, ultimately, is your goal to find the perfect subs for permanent use?

The Fathom 113 pair also delivers in the WOW factor. Shaun of the Dead is full of some amazing bass tracks, and the 113's absolutely shake the room, and they do so even at moderate levels. Most subs require the sound track be played too loud, with the subs too hot, in order to get a nice tactile response.

The 113's don't require this.

:)

My wife & I both noticed this affect even on a concrete floor. My Velodyne HGS-15 could not do this unless we had the db level turned up. Do you have a good explanation of what the difference could be Craig?

So Craig, ultimately, is your goal to find the perfect subs for permanent use?

I am hoping to find a subwoofer system that I don't ever think "I wish it did __________________" ...

And, while doing so, this process has grown into something a bit more. As things progress, I will be putting together a catalog of the "best" subwoofers in the price category. Keep in mind that the best is based on my experience ... and is my opinion, plus the opinion of a lot of people who have been here to listen to them.

The least expensive subwoofer we have had is $200, the highest is $5000. That is a pretty broad sampling. Hopefully, it will be useful information.

Although the LFE tract wasn't as gut wrenching as WOTW, there are a couple of special scenes in MI 3 where a helocopter is flying around several of the very large "windmills". The THUMP each time the blade of the large windmill turns is visceral!!

Craig, the only sub left to test is that one that looks like a fan ;)

Sounds like the Fathom is the real deal. Too bad I can only read about such things :mad:

Although the LFE tract wasn't as gut wrenching as WOTW, there are a couple of special scenes in MI 3 where a helocopter is flying around several of the very large "windmills". The THUMP each time the blade of the large windmill turns is visceral!!


did you watch the standard version of MI3?

the HD-DVD version, as i mentioned before, was incredible. the scene on the bridge as the first truck gets hit and flips in the air......i was waiting for the truck to land...and i wasnt disappointed. overall great scene for the entire system, the f113 fit in perfectly.

the windmill scene was also great and the scene leading up to that where the building blows up provided great enjoyment as well.

I find it fascinating that there people who think that listening to a speaker (and a subwoofer is a speaker) is not the final arbiter of its sound quality. ;)

Amen but people who had F112's and F113's, and were saying how great they sounded were getting the standard do you have any numbers response, look how many people are jumping on the bandwagon after your post(much respect for your work but they are still taking your word albeit a very experienced one), if anyone here has doubts go listen to one you will be amazed

I am hoping to find a subwoofer system that I don't ever think "I wish it did __________________" ...
dont we all?! :)

And, while doing so, this process has grown into something a bit more. As things progress, I will be putting together a catalog of the "best" subwoofers in the price category. Keep in mind that the best is based on my experience ... and is my opinion, plus the opinion of a lot of people who have been here to listen to them.
Careful here Craig.....you are just asking for trouble right here! In the past 3 years, numerous "debates" (or as I call them, pissing matches) have occurred to the fact that someone calls a speaker or subwoofer "the best"....there is NO such thing!

Best in what? SQ? that's very subjective!
Best in looks? do we need to even discuss this further?
Best balance? those who like deeper extension vs those with tighter bass will always disagree, so how can one say?

For anyone (not just you Craig, but anyone) to declare that one sub is the "best" in a particular price range, is just not correct, specially when so many people are quick to latch onto that and preach it as bible..........."Craigsub said the HSU HO+turbo is the best subwoofer under $1500, so you are an idiot if you buy something else" is undoubtedbly what will (and has been) said, and as you well know, it will only lead to more problems.

My humble, $2.00 and change, irrelevant, who am I to say, opinion is that you should post what YOU thought of in this venture between all the subs you tested, and surely you can rank them or assign "winners" as you like, so long as you make it extremely clear that they are just that: what YOUR EARS thought of them.

How many months are headaches, and bannings, and closed threads, etc, happened after your 5 person GTG last year? How many people were quick to point to that as the ultimate measuring stick into which sub is better, etc?

Ditto on the other side of the coin: Measuring subs is another excellent way of objectively describing a subs performance.........declaring a winner purely based on a graph is also not wise! I personally think there is a strong correlation between objective measurements and how a sub sounds, but that's just me.

anyways, hope I made sense....

dont we all?! :)


Careful here Craig.....you are just asking for trouble right here! In the past 3 years, numerous "debates" (or as I call them, pissing matches) have occurred to the fact that someone calls a speaker or subwoofer "the best"....there is NO such thing!

Best in what? SQ? that's very subjective!
Best in looks? do we need to even discuss this further?
Best balance? those who like deeper extension vs those with tighter bass will always disagree, so how can one say?

For anyone (not just you Craig, but anyone) to declare that one sub is the "best" in a particular price range, is just not correct, specially when so many people are quick to latch onto that and preach it as bible..........."Craigsub said the HSU HO+turbo is the best subwoofer under $1500, so you are an idiot if you buy something else" is undoubtedbly what will (and has been) said, and as you well know, it will only lead to more problems.

My humble, $2.00 and change, irrelevant, who am I to say, opinion is that you should post what YOU thought of in this venture between all the subs you tested, and surely you can rank them or assign "winners" as you like, so long as you make it extremely clear that they are just that: what YOUR EARS thought of them.

How many months are headaches, and bannings, and closed threads, etc, happened after your 5 person GTG last year? How many people were quick to point to that as the ultimate measuring stick into which sub is better, etc?

Ditto on the other side of the coin: Measuring subs is another excellent way of objectively describing a subs performance.........declaring a winner purely based on a graph is also not wise! I personally think there is a strong correlation between objective measurements and how a sub sounds, but that's just me.

anyways, hope I made sense....

Sherv .. AS you decided to put "I" as an extremely large letter, and ignore the rest of the body of the post, it is pretty clear that you did not quite "get" it. Please re-read what I wrote in its entirety. It is pretty clear that I said "in my opinion".

Anyone who does not agree with the final results is welcome to disagree.

For the record, and for the what, 1583rd time ??, I understand that objective data is important. However, it is in listening that the final decision needs to be made.

If anyone is confused by that position, please let me know, ok ? :rolleyes:

If someone can point me to a single post in which one person called another an idiot, as suggested by this quote:

Craigsub said the HSU HO+turbo is the best subwoofer under $1500, so you are an idiot if you buy something else" is undoubtedbly what will (and has been) said.

Please let me know, ok ? I don't recall this ever happening.

Sherv .. AS you decided to put "I" as an extremely large letter, and ignore the rest of the body of the post, it is pretty clear that you did not quite "get" it. Please re-read what I wrote in its entirety. It is pretty clear that I said "in my opinion".
geezus, what's with everyone here telling people "you don't "get" it ", and insinuating lack of comprehension, etc?? did you and SteveC take the same class or something? :mad:

that is EXACTLY why I bolded the entire sentence.....not just the word "I" :( did you not see that?

If someone can point me to a single post in which one person called another an idiot, as suggested by this quote:
Please let me know, ok ? I don't recall this ever happening.
I didn't say YOU called anyone names, i said the comment has been said by others, ....if interested, we can take this offline and I will show you.



anyways, seems like tension is as usual here, so I'm out.....I simply wanted to point that out so that others dont jump to conclusions not only to your posted "opinions" but also to avoid people attacking you and misenterpreting you as they have in the past, but ok....

http://smiliesftw.com/x/ioclonist.gif

Craig, have you ever thought about buying a 18" lms5400 & throwing it in a sealed box? It would be interesting to see what that could do against other expensive sealed options. And since you seem to prefer the sound of a sealed sub, I cant think of a better diy project for you to do rather than the 2 15" SS subs. I would sell my pb12+2 & spend a little and buy that driver, but then I would have to spend alot on a 3000watt amp to drive it.

I cant think of a better diy project for you to do rather than the 2 15" SS subs
yup! :)

I would sell my pb12+2 & spend a little and buy that driver, but then I would have to spend alot on a 3000watt amp to drive it.
yes, it is NOT a cheap solution by any means, but it is soooo tempting, isnt it? that LMS5400 has soo much potential in both ported and sealed alignments.

one 18" 5400, in a sealed enclosure, with an ICE amp + BASSIS, and my friend, you would have one to REALLY talk about in the forums! :eek:

or one 18" 5400 in a large sonotube, tuned to 12 hz, with an EP2500+DEQ2496 or a Crown XTi, and just kill your dog before hand! :p



oh snap, I forgot, I was supposed to be out of this thread.....http://smiliesftw.com/x/iocrunks2.gif

Here's one more vote for a 5400 in a sealed box vs. the top sealed commercial offerings. This would be a great read, and much like the decision I see myself making in the next few months...

This is the main reason I am a Professional Lurker here. I hate to count how many threads are ruined by personal attacks.

When you use someones quote, why would want to take it out of context by capitalizing ( a 1 inch high I ) certain areas to make YOUR point. In my opinion, this can only be taken by the original poster as an personal attack. If you have a question, ask it, instead of statements. If your not sure what was meant, ask? I could go on for ever when it comes to using a little common sense before you post. I still hope this thread does not go south, like a lot of others have.

I really enjoy my new sub & I hope to be able to see Craig's subjective opinions & objective analysis off all the subs.

Thank You

geezus, what's with everyone here telling people "you don't "get" it ", and insinuating lack of comprehension, etc?? did you and SteveC take the same class or something? :mad:

that is EXACTLY why I bolded the entire sentence.....not just the word "I" :( did you not see that?


I didn't say YOU called anyone names, i said the comment has been said by others, ....if interested, we can take this offline and I will show you.



anyways, seems like tension is as usual here, so I'm out.....I simply wanted to point that out so that others dont jump to conclusions not only to your posted "opinions" but also to avoid people attacking you and misenterpreting you as they have in the past, but ok....

http://smiliesftw.com/x/ioclonist.gif

Sherv, I never said that you said I called others names. And Please, PM me with information in which people called others an "idiot" because someone disagreed with a review/opinion of mine.

Quite frankly, in this thread, the primary problems with tension have been you and WillD. Other than you 2, this has been pretty peaceful.

For example ... Here was my statement about the subwoofers, taken as a whole:

And, while doing so, this process has grown into something a bit more. As things progress, I will be putting together a catalog of the "best" subwoofers in the price category. Keep in mind that the best is based on my experience ... and is my opinion, plus the opinion of a lot of people who have been here to listen to them.

The part I put into bold is the part you ignored.

Ssabripo,

Which ice amp are you talking about ?

I too would like to see a 18" LMS w/ 2000w of power in a sealed box.

This diy project would cost about $2K using a EP2500..

Heck you could add a DEQ2496 and it would still be around <$2.5K

Anyway craigsub, thanks for all the effort...

Regards,
Jose

the primary problems with tension have been you and WillD

Please, if I caused any tension, it wasn't intentional. I never said anything negative about any of these subs here or how you were testing them. I was simply talking about any possible correlation between measurements and opinion of sound quality. You imagined this "tension".

Have a good day,
Will

PS. When will you get the MFW-15? I saw that Mark hasn't updated the thread for it on AV123. I'll admit, I am a bit anxious to see how it fares against the competition.

Sherv, I never said that you said I called others names. And Please, PM me with information in which people called others an "idiot" because someone disagreed with a review/opinion of mine.
I will...check your box in a couple of min

Quite frankly, in this thread, the primary problems with tension have been you and WillD. Other than you 2, this has been pretty peaceful.
huh????? :confused:
that's totally false and uncalled for craig...I haven't even participated in this thread until my last post!!!!!! :confused: This is THE ONLY other post I've made in this entire thread prior to the one above:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8670359&&#post8670359

so how exactly am I causing tension in this thread, if I haven't even participated in it?????? :rolleyes:

Like I said, I merely pointed out that you should be careful when and if you post "best" subwoofers on how you word it, that's all, so that you don't get attacked like you have in the past.... like a friend or a neighbor telling another to be careful when they drive thru X neighborhood and to keep their eyes open....

but hey, suit yourself....rather than saying "point taken Sherv" you went on an all out backfire....I just dont get it.



The part I put into bold is the part you ignored.
As I just explained it to you, i did not ignore anything you said....I just bolded the part I thought should be taken with care, because you of all people should know that there are many here and other forums that love to jump on your case at the first opportunity.

oh well....lessoned learned on my end: Never EVER try to make a friendly advice/warning...will lead to friendly Fire! I'll just revert back to my usual stance of sitting back and enjoying the fireworks.............

http://smiliesftw.com/x/drama.gif

Ssabripo,

Which ice amp are you talking about ?

I too would like to see a 18" LMS w/ 2000w of power in a sealed box.

This diy project would cost about $2K using a EP2500..

Heck you could add a DEQ2496 and it would still be around <$2.5K

Anyway craigsub, thanks for all the effort...

Regards,
Jose

Here is the dual Soundsplinter set up in an 8^3 foot sealed enclosure:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/SSsealed.jpg

Here is the TC Sounds 5400 vs. the dual driver SS in the same size sealed enclosure (Both using the Behringer EP-2500)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/SSTCsealed.jpg

Would you consider it, Craig?

Still nice to see you trying the Rl-p's in a sealed enclosure.

Would you consider it, Craig?

Still nice to see you trying the Rl-p's in a sealed enclosure.

I will consider anything ... For now, this thread is about the Fathom 113, though, and we need to get it back on track.

I only posted the Soundsplinter model to give people an idea of the competition between a credible DIY project vs. the Fathom.

Off on another biz trip .. See you guys thursday night ... :)

Ssabripo,

Which ice amp are you talking about ?

I too would like to see a 18" LMS w/ 2000w of power in a sealed box.

This diy project would cost about $2K using a EP2500..

Heck you could add a DEQ2496 and it would still be around <$2.5K

Anyway craigsub, thanks for all the effort...

Regards,
Jose
we can take it offline outside this thread, as this is offtopic from the point of this thread.....oh, and I already posted it on the TCforums: $1150 for driver, $550 for ep2500+DEQ, $300 for sono/wood/paint/etc...we can talk off line.

So anyway... going back to the Fathom, Is anyone else here in BC Canada lookin into getting the f113 in the near future? I'm close to pulling the trigger but the canadian price seems absurd, anyone else in this boat? (The MSRP has gone up recently apparently)

The F113 is a very good performer. I took some TrueRTA charts at about 3 meters from both it and the SVS PB12-Plus/2 with the WOTW Lightning scene.

Here is the Plus/2 on WOTW.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/svswotwnewrta.jpg

And the Fathom 113

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/113WOTWlght.jpg



I know the f113 is much more expensive, but it still amazes me that a single 13" driver in a much smaller cabinet has that much more output than the dual 12" Plus/2 monster down low! Yeah, the Plus/2 was tuned to 20Hz, but if it's tuned to 16Hz it is pretty well underported for higher SPL's and it will also suffer in the higher 20Hz-50Hz range as far as lower output.

If it sounds subjectively as good as everyone who has heard one say it does, it seems JL Audio has quite a product on thier hands. I's not cheap, but then again it is relatively small (which is a very important WAF) and has solid output down to 15Hz and below. I think I am going to try one out and see what I think for myself. :cool:

Thanks for all the info shared here!

I know the f113 is much more expensive, but it still amazes me that a single 13" driver in a much smaller cabinet has that much more output than the dual 12" Plus/2 monster down low!



Why would it be..... THis is exactly what you expect to see...

The Dual 12 is a ported design whose primary effect is to be most efficient at its port tunning frequency which is why you get the bang for the buck.. Lots of SPL at 20hz with only 1000 watts of power...

The Sealed 13 is very inefficient in design and requires alot of power to compete with a ported design.. which is why the F113 requires 2500 watts of power....

This really is not a fair comparison... These boxes, because of their design are exactly what youd expect them to be....

Ported => BIG(LowWAF), LessAmpPower(LowerCost), Non-linear response
Sealed => Small(HighWAF), Gobs of AmpPower(Expensive given space and heat requirements), and Linear response.

How many sealed 12"-13" subs can compete SPL wise with the Plus/2 even at 20Hz. None of the Velodyne 12" models can that I know of. Is there anything else on the market that can? That is my point. Yes, as far as price it is not a fair comparison. But the point is there really are not any other sealed subs of this size that can do what the f113 does. In fact down around 15-18Hz (from Craigs graphs) it seems it would take two Plus/2's to equal the f113 in output in that freq. range. Which actually brings them much closer in price as far as producing the same SPL in that freq. range. And of course two Plus/2 are much bigger than one f113! ;)

This is very true.. Not many Sealed subs out there that can do what the F113 is doing..

From the first question in your earlier post I thought you didnt know how a Single 13 outgunned a dual 12..

I was merely trying to explain the mechanics behind it.. I know this question was asked in an earlier post..

Cheers ;)

Yeah, I can see where you could have got that impression. I'm just really amazed at what the f113 is capable of. Pretty damn cool! :cool:

I am very Impressed myself..

I am married and rent, dont own... I dont have the room or the WAF approval for a SVS Sub but I am a Bass Head.. I have Two Yorkville LS800ps for outdoor house parties.. The F113 seems to be the answer to my BASS for HT needs..

I will wait to see what SVS does with their new Ultra driver before I make a purchase but I am getting darn close..

Cool thing is my Wife didnt give me a budget ceiling but the trade off is she has to 'like' the appearance of it since its going in the living room were we entertain our guests..

The fact that this sub outperforms the Plus/2 below its tuning point is just not that suprising to me for reasons already stated which I won't bother repeating.

Kramskoi, you mentioned this driver having similar Vd to that of a 15" Tumult? That says a lot in and of itself. Mighty impressive.

Notwithstanding, I am still way ahead of the Fathom at a fraction of the price, with Xbl^2 to keep distortion low at a Qtc I can call home ;) Albeit taking up a larger chunk of real-estate...not that "I" care much or have WAF to worry about at this point...:p

Notwithstanding, I am still way ahead of the Fathom at a fraction of the price, with Xbl^2 to keep distortion low at a Qtc I can call home ;)

Sorry but I cant help think that this is a pretty silly claim. Way ahead in what regard? esthetics? output? musicality? I love how often the only measurment of a subs performance, is how well it belts out a sinewave below 25 hz these days. :rolleyes: Pardon my post, and its not directed at you entirely... but its like people dont listen or care about how well these bass "speakers" perform with music anymore.

I, for one, care about how "bass speakers" perform with music. In fact, my listening preferences favor music 99% of the time and my setup reflects that. You would derive a proper understanding of my point of view from the information provided in my last post if you understood it. If I didn't care about music performance believe me I wouldn't care about bl non-linearities ( which Xbl^2 helps prevent for the most part, which I did mention) Qts, inductance...etc as much as I do... just to name a few... or take the time to undestand what all that stuff means! No "silly claims" here. :cool:

I'd hate to think I offended you by stating what you consider to be a silly claim. That was really not my intention.

Edit: Hey, I wish I could build a sub as aesthetically pleasing as the Fathom myself (not that I can't pay a professional to do it for me and still have a cheaper setup) however i just dont have the skill! or money! for what my system does the last thing i'll be worried about is looks, but thats just how I operate and it ain't ugly ;). Output wise it is objectively ahead. Musicality is yet another subjective area. With a low Qtc, and servo feedback im pretty sure im very musical though.

Again no bogus claims . Just my opinion ;) I must admit, that last post of yours did get under my skin...a big assumption was made. But I hope that now you understand what the deal is ;)

I, for one, care about how "bass speakers" perform with music. In fact, my listening preferences favor music 99% of the time and my setup reflects that. You would derive a proper understanding of my point of view from the information provided in my last post if you understood it. If I didn't care about music performance believe me I wouldn't care about bl non-linearities ( which Xbl^2 helps prevent for the most part, which I did mention) Qts, inductance...etc as much as I do... just to name a few... or take the time to undestand what all that stuff means! No "silly claims" here. :cool:

I'd hate to think I offended you by stating what you consider to be a silly claim. That was really not my intention.


Its understanding that you want to defend a creation you put together. Until myself or the DIY people who have offered to construct a sub for me for a fraction of the price to offer "better" performance get a PhD in sound engineering and acoustics. I'll continue to purchase from a company that puts years of work and millions of dollars research into their product. As for you quoteing about Adires Xbl patent, i find it great that you think this is very important to musical performance. I'm not saying its not a great technology, as surely other companies wouldnt be copying it or offering something similar if it wasnt. Having said that I would imagine this doesnt mean that any manufacturer of subs who isnt using this technology offers an inferior product or is stupid in some regard! :eek:

I dont pretend to understand all of the engineering behind a sub driver or its enclosure. I do know one thing though, trust your ears... so far the best musical subs I've heard are ones who were made from millions of R&D and years of research, not something that was put together as a hobby in someones basement. Sure i'll end up paying more than the one who built something his or herself, but then again this is up to the person making the choice, and where his or her priorities lie..

Anyway, going back to the Fathom 113 it looks to be the real deal, however is it worth the $5000 canadian msrp... For myself...I'm not convinced yet. It doesn't help the audio shop dealers here in Vancouver overcharge for products in the first place either. :mad:

Its understanding that you want to defend a creation you put together.
I am guilty of defending something I built. Still doesn't make my claims bogus, comparing objective data.
Until myself or the DIY people who have offered to construct a sub for me for a fraction of the price to offer "better" performance get a PhD in sound engineering and acoustics.
Nah, I am a computer engineering major and thats how its going to stay. But does being the owner of a Rythmik Servo not qualify as owning researched/proven DIY design? Go look it up. It is has been designed to be musical from the ground up...im pretty sure Brian Ding has enough credibility.

I'll continue to purchase from a company that puts years of work and millions of dollars research into their product.
You're definitely allowed to do that. Makes sense to me...and I don't criticize you for it.

As for you quoteing about Adires Xbl patent, i find it great that you think this is very important to musical performance.
I didn't quote Adire's Xbl patent. :rolleyes: Low distortion is important to subwoofer performance as a whole.

I'm not saying its not a great technology, as surely other companies wouldnt be copying it or offering something similar if it wasnt. Having said that I would imagine this doesnt mean that any manufacturer of subs who isnt using this technology offers an inferior product or is stupid in some regard! :eek:
There are in fact many companies that produce excellent drivers with standard motor designs, even from the same companies who do utilize linear motor technology. The fathom actually uses a form of linear motor technology to keep Bl non-linearities at a minumum. Oh and point me to where I called anyone stupid for not using a form of linear motor technology? We're staying on topic here...the Fathom DOES use this type of technology.

I dont pretend to understand all of the engineering behind a sub driver or its enclosure. I do know one thing though, trust your ears...
Dude I totally agree.


so far the best musical subs I've heard are ones who were made from millions of R&D and years of research, not something that was put together as a hobby in someones basement.
Well, what can I say. Have you given a good DIY design a listen?


Sure i'll end up paying more than the one who built something his or herself, but then again this is up to the person making the choice, and where his or her priorities lie..
I couldn't agree more.

The Fathom certainly does look like the real deal! but I wouldn't spend that much on it personally. I'd rather spend it on that 18" sealed TC-5400 setup mentioned earlier ;)

Weird how subwoofers just bring out the best in everyone:D

if a DIY'er could build a sub that was as good as the Fathom, he or she would be doing it for a living.

I am sure that for the money you have spent, your sub is probably OK, but could i live with it, NO

but to compare it to a sub like the Fathom sounds like you may need to be locked up. I doubt you will find anyone who will agree with you other than someone who bought the same kit and built it in their garage.

it is as simple as that.

until you can actually understand this and admit that your illogical claims are that of a brainwashed youth, go to another thread and spread your crazy talk somewhere else.

:) if i put a smiley after that does it make it seem nicer?

I dont pretend to understand all of the engineering behind a sub driver or its enclosure. I do know one thing though, trust your ears... so far the best musical subs I've heard are ones who were made from millions of R&D and years of research, not something that was put together as a hobby in someones basement. Sure i'll end up paying more than the one who built something his or herself, but then again this is up to the person making the choice, and where his or her priorities lie.

This is fully intended as a polite correction to the reality of how the audio industry has evolved...

I will state that without question, some of the most creative and best performing audio designs I've heard have been crafted in a home workshop or even on a kitchen table (that particular table I'm thinking of has some serious history ;) )

As Manville already hinted at earlier in the thread about the "billion dollar company comment," the audio business is quite small in the grand scheme of the business world. Most of the companies we think of as the "big names" aren't that big, or even if they are now, they started out very small. Even JL started out much smaller on the way to their now well established position and awareness in the car audio market.

Getting back on the topic, I think Craig's experience should get people considering that the sub that can play a tone loudest or cleanest is not always the subjective winner. There are indeed many variables that quickly become difficult for an end user to "match" with different approaches to different packaged solutions. It should be noted that Craig's comparisons of the RTA measurement of content at various frequencies through a scene is dependent on more than how much the sub can put out at any one frequency. Remember that with any complex signal you have many things going on for different durations over different frequency ranges, and you never have the same power available that you have when testing a single frequency. This is where knowing the cause of the output or distortion limit becomes interesting. Manville's earlier and classic quote from Paul Klipsch holds true. There are measurements that matter. Most of the great performers out there didn't just stumble into the final combo from a plug-n-pray methodology. :rolleyes:

I thought this was why Dave Botts created the DIY forum - so we could stop these silly arguments everytime someone says something good about a high-priced sub. I *like* reading about subs I can't afford - I don't see why they can't be discussed without the thread becoming a cr@pfest.

Ok...
if a DIY'er could build a sub that was as good as the Fathom, he or she would be doing it for a living.
I've certainly seen many DIY subs look better than the Fathom (subjective), and outperform it on many levels. Keep in mind, the people who build them do not choose to build subs for a living however. :)

I am sure that for the money you have spent, your sub is probably OK, but could i live with it, NO
Thats okay with me Fred. It wasn't built to your subjective liking afterall...but I appreciate the comment.

but to compare it to a sub like the Fathom sounds like you may need to be locked up.
:p nuff said


I doubt you will find anyone who will agree with you other than someone who bought the same kit and built it in their garage. i

t is simple as that.

until you can actually understand this and admit the err of your ways, go to another thread and spread your crazy talk somewhere else.

:) if i put a smiley after that does it make it seem nicer?
No.

I thought this was why Dave Botts created the DIY forum - so we could stop these silly arguments everytime someone says something good about a high-priced sub. I *like* reading about subs I can't afford - I don't see why they can't be discussed without the thread becoming a cr@pfest.

I enjoy reading about subs I can't afford too. :) The Fathom is definitely a great product.

I'm going to respond to this mostly to hopefully squawsh some hositility that might be brewing in other posters...

if a DIY'er could build a sub that was as good as the Fathom, he or she would be doing it for a living.

Building one creation by hand is very different than producing many and not loosing money in the process. :rolleyes:


I am sure that for the money you have spent, your sub is probably OK, but could i live with it, NO

but to compare it to a sub like the Fathom sounds like you may need to be locked up. I doubt you will find anyone who will agree with you other than someone who bought the same kit and built it in their garage.

Anything can be compared, and comparisons are never even, because products are never identical. While I agree that most DIYers would not easily come up with a resulting package at a similar size that is all around as refined as the JL subs being discussed, that is not to say they can't achieve comparable performance. The primary difference is that a DIYer will have to take a very different path to reach the common end goal. That path will better align with what resources and parts they have available. That path might also dictate certain characteristics like size, finish quality, or overload behavior be ballanced with other means towards insuring the end goal. Performance can be quite good, but DIYers and those reading along should also realize that the performance is still reliant on many factors, including execution of the design, if there are not already oversights in the design. A production subwoofer is a quantity than can be tested and measured with a known level of repeatability. This verification and peace of mind has value, and it's value will not be the same for all enthusiasts. This is why we have so many options, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I'm going to respond to this mostly to hopefully squawsh some hositility that might be brewing in other posters...



Building one creation by hand is very different than producing many and not loosing money in the process. :rolleyes:



Anything can be compared, and comparisons are never even, because products are never identical. While I agree that most DIYers would not easily come up with a resulting package at a similar size that is all around as refined as the JL subs being discussed, that is not to say they can't achieve comparable performance. The primary difference is that a DIYer will have to take a very different path to reach the common end goal. That path will better align with what resources and parts they have available. That path might also dictate certain characteristics like size, finish quality, or overload behavior be ballanced with other means towards insuring the end goal. Performance can be quite good, but DIYers and those reading along should also realize that the performance is still reliant on many factors, including execution of the design, if there are not already oversights in the design. A production subwoofer is a quantity than can be tested and measured with a known level of repeatability. This verification and peace of mind has value, and it's value will not be the same for all enthusiasts. This is why we have so many options, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Great post Mark. I'd also like to say that it is important for a production subwoofer to be measured well within repeatability because a production model is given one set of specs for many "clones" to live up to.

The DIY crowd might chant that they can duplicate our subwoofer using off-the-shelf woofers and amplifiers, but I can tell you that this would neither be simple or inexpensive to do.


Actually, it was this statement from Manville that opened the door to DIYers commenting to the contrary.

No need to dump on Exo, who's a great guy who built a great sub from a kit by Brian Ding who knows a thing or 2 about sealed subwoofers.

The TrueRTA peak hold graphs of various scenes show very little about a subwoofers SQ. They are inaccurate below around 20Hz, moreso as the frequency decreases and only go to 10Hz, and Craig has the least accurate low end setting selected.

I fully realize that Craig intended a quick comparo with the PB thingy only, but there are already some quotes (or, misquotes) from assumptions about that graph on other forums regarding the output of the 113.

I've included a peak hold graph of that same scene to show what's missing in both sub's performances for those who may be interested, as the spectrograph, or waterfall plot of that scene shows equal levels of 20+Hz and below 20Hz.

I can't say that all of my DIY stuff is 'off the shelf', but most of it is for this graph.

It doesn't take millions of dollars of R&D and my first subsonic, smallish, high-powered sealed subs were most likely affording me this kind of output capability along with features that no other sub offered (or offers) at any price when the Fathom was still on the drawing board.

I hate to say it, but it was rather simple to do, and, given that I only have spare time to devote to the hobby, it took relatively little time to accomplish.

It isn't 'cheap', but it isn't $3K+ either.

The Fathom 113 seems to be a very, very good product, but so far there are no numbers available to say much more than 'it sounds great to me.'

Craig, if you could run a QS with the mic nearfield, I would appreciate it. Great stuff as always :cool:

After all is said and done I havnt heard a "bad" thing about the F113's. That must mean something.
I think they sound great. IMHO. 2nd sub is on the way.

I never said it couldn't be done DIY... I said it would neither be simple or inexpensive. In other words, a product like the Fathom is much more than a woofer, a box and an amp. If I gave you the woofer, the box and a 2500W amp... you still wouldn't have a Fathom when you put it all together. If you believe otherwise you simply don't "get" what goes into a professionally engineered and manufactured subwoofer.

I never intended to disparage any DIY'ers, I was simply illuminating the above point.

Anybody into audio owes it to themselves to build and tweak a speaker system at some point in the development of their hobby. Whether the project ends up in the garage or in the main theater room is a function of how much expertise and technical resources they have and how much TIME they put into it... a factor that is rarely considered in the cost analysis of the DIY approach. And I think everyone will agree that a DIY project's performance evaluation is not necessarily "objective" as the builder's pride always plays a role. I've built a few and they always sounded great! Any trivial shortcomings they have are vastly outweighed by whatever my preconceived notions as to the brilliance of the concept were! Prove me wrong. :)

Come to think of it, I do have a pair of my DIY's in the garage and another in my main listening room. The ones I listen to regularly spent a little time in our acoustics lab for some crossover work... they're great (IMHO).

Anything can be compared, and comparisons are never even, because products are never identical. While I agree that most DIYers would not easily come up with a resulting package at a similar size that is all around as refined as the JL subs being discussed, that is not to say they can't achieve comparable performance. The primary difference is that a DIYer will have to take a very different path to reach the common end goal. That path will better align with what resources and parts they have available. That path might also dictate certain characteristics like size, finish quality, or overload behavior be ballanced with other means towards insuring the end goal. Performance can be quite good, but DIYers and those reading along should also realize that the performance is still reliant on many factors, including execution of the design, if there are not already oversights in the design. A production subwoofer is a quantity than can be tested and measured with a known level of repeatability. This verification and peace of mind has value, and it's value will not be the same for all enthusiasts. This is why we have so many options, and there is nothing wrong with that.

what can I say Mark?! http://xtremesystems.org/forums/images/smilies/clap.gif http://xtremesystems.org/forums/images/smilies/bow2.gif

So this is the future of the subwoofer threads eh? It used to be SVS vs everything...now it's diy vs everything. Let the pissing contests continue! :rolleyes:

Man do I hesitate to post in this one....but:

If I gave you the woofer, the box and a 2500W amp... you still wouldn't have a Fathom when you put it all together
I don't think any regular Joe DIY'er is foolish enough to believe that they can take the same driver, amp, and enclosure and come up with a design better than one that will be tested and tweaked over and over, as well as have amp mods to suit the specific driver and enclosure. But ya know what, that's not what DIY'ers do. We far overshoot the goal, using overkill drivers, putting no limits on the enclosures, and using as much power as we need. An audio company may be shooting for clean 105db levels with a flat FR to 20hz - to beat it, the DIY'er might shoot for clean 120db levels with a flat FR down to 10hz, and they can get it done for less cost to boot. If an audio company with a lot more resources took those same components, could they refine the DIY'ers design and make it better? Absolutely they could. But they would never go that route to begin with, as the average guy wants a small sub that doesn't weigh a lot and looks great, so his wife won't yell at him :)

I think it would be best to leave DIY talk to the DIY forum and commercial talk to this regular sub forum. They are two different environments with different types of people who have different mindsets that are looking for two very different things.

Your points are quite valid, Steve...

I think we should all take Steve's advice and get back on topic.

Man do I hesitate to post in this one....but:


I don't think any regular Joe DIY'er is foolish enough to believe that they can take the same driver, amp, and enclosure and come up with a design better than one that will be tested and tweaked over and over, as well as have amp mods to suit the specific driver and enclosure. But ya know what, that's not what DIY'ers do. We far overshoot the goal, using overkill drivers, putting no limits on the enclosures, and using as much power as we need. An audio company may be shooting for clean 105db levels with a flat FR to 20hz - to beat it, the DIY'er might shoot for clean 120db levels with a flat FR down to 10hz, and they can get it done for less cost to boot. If an audio company with a lot more resources took those same components, could they refine the DIY'ers design and make it better? Absolutely they could. But they would never go that route to begin with, as the average guy wants a small sub that doesn't weigh a lot and looks great, so his wife won't yell at him :)

I think it would be best to leave DIY talk to the DIY forum and commercial talk to this regular sub forum. They are two different environments with different types of people who have different mindsets that are looking for two very different things.

well said Steve! http://forums.offtopic.com/images/smilies/biggthumpup.gif

FWIW, I too believe that was very well said Steve. :cool:
Back to talking about the f113. :)

Man, I just read the review over at HTSound and this sub sounds crazy. The reviewer even says -

"As for sound, the JL played deeper, louder, and tighter than the SVS with any material I chose. But this statement doesn’t apply only to the SVS PB12-Plus/2; it applies to every other active sub I’ve heard, at any price"

Those are some bold words. I'm a novice DIY'er but, I WANT ONE!!!! To bad that is more cash than I care to part with for a subwoofer.

FWIW, i apologize to the DIY'ers i may have offended. The one thing we have in common is that we love to listen to movies and music, our differences come from how we may choose to go about it. Everyone feels that their approach is better and that is everyones right. I personally would rather spend the money to buy a speaker that is already built, tested, and represented by a company with a solid reputation. I can then resell this product in the future and use that money to move upwards in fidelity. Some people like the challenge of producing their own products, products they grow to love and become devoted to. I understand that, I respect that.

The guy I went after was the second such guy in a couple days that pretty much had a negative attitude towards anything that wasn't DIY. We didn't stumble into his thread, he stumbled into ours. If you read the 8 plus pages before they joined, you will see a great discussion of different subs, subjective observations as well as many tests performed by Craigsub. Even MSmith_JL has been nice enough to correct any misinformation concerning the JL Audio products, and in doing so hasn't said the first negative comment about any other company. It was an informative lovefest.

Lets turn back the clock and continue the respectful conversation. :eek:

I'm with you NHTFRED!!

I'm hoping to have my (Satin finished) f113 to test out in my room here in a week or two. I can't wait! :)

I'm interested to see how this sub stacks up against the DD-18 and a pair of VTF-HO's...get a move on Craig. :D

And Mark Seaton's SubMersive...that's the one I am waiting for.

I'm interested to see how this sub stacks up against the DD-18 and a pair of VTF-HO's...get a move on Craig. :D

The Plus/2 will be moved out, and the DD-18 and VTF-3 HO(s) will get their shots at the 113(s) this weekend.

It will likely be a single 113 against a single DD-18 and Dual VTF-3 HO's ... I also talked to my brother, and he will be ready to take the plans for the sealed Dual 15 inch SoundSplinter sub and make it a reality next week.

From what I remember of threads from years past, you preferred the Maestro to the SVS subs for musicality? Do you still have the Maestro's around? How did the Maestros compare to the DD-18s?

Here was the summary of the DD-18, Maestro, PB12-Ultra and the "not finished" VTF-3 HO

For the past 8 days, my family has been in Wyoming, which has allowed for a lot of auditioning of the Maestro XL vs. the Velodyne and PB12-Ultra and Hsu VTF-3 HO.

The disclaimers to consider ...

1. I used a single Maestro XL against the Velodyne, the PB12-Ultra, and the Hsu with pricing of $2250, $3000 (street price, which MAY not be attainable by all), $1200, and $900 ... respectively.

2. All listening was done "blind", and level matched.

3. ALL four of these subwoofers deliver excellent quality bass.

4. The VTF-3 HO has a new driver and amp coming soon. My comments here are not necessarily fair.

The music and DVD's used for auditioning ...

Steely Dan's Two against Nature, Donald Fagen's Morph The Cat, Dire Strait's 20th Anniversary Brother in Arms, The SACD of Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon, FourPlay's Between the Sheets, and numerous other jazz CD's.

War of the Worlds, Star Wars: ATOC, The Incredibles, Titan AE, and The Lord of the Rings Trilogy.

This is the order of finish, without regards to pricing ... and this order was determined before I knew which subwoofer was which.

First place ..................... The Velodyne DD-18 with 100 Points
Second Place................. ACI Maestro XL with 97 points
Third Place .................... SVS PB12-Ultra with 89 points
Fourth Place ................. VTF-3 HO with 80 points

**** The Velodyne was the only subwoofer of the four which consistently did everything well while having no audible weaknesses. On the Steely Dan/Fagen discs especially, it matched the Maestro XL in speed, articulation, and accuracy while never calling attention to itself.

Suprisingly, it was the movies scenes that separated it from the Maestro ... The Maestro would just plain give up before the Velodyne. It was not a huge difference, but it was there. On War of the Worlds, the Pods emerging scene is definitely reference material, and the Big Velo shook the room in a manner which the other subs just could not match.

For $3000 street price, the DD-18 is a remarkable value, too. Think of it as a high power $2400 subwoofer which has state of the art sound quality and a $600 EQ set up.

**** The Maestro XL was the equal to the Velodyne on music, but was left a bit behind when asked to deliver high level DVD tracks. It also lacks the DD-18's built in eq, so value becomes more of an issue here. A Maestro with an SMS-1 will run about $2850 ... The Caveat on this, two Maestros can defintely be purchased for abut $4200 ... and if your local dealer won't sell the DD-18 for the $3000 street price as has been mentioned here, suddenly, the Maestro could jump ahead of the Big Velo.

**** The PB12-Ultra really is a fantastic value subwoofer. When set up in its 16 Hz tuning, a single Ultra did a credible job in our large theater room. Two of them will easily match (or beat) the Velodyne in the sheer room shaking ability, and will do so for $2400 ... probably less, with a discount SVS usually delivers.

The Ultra is left behind by the big Velo and Maestro XL in terms of articulation ... even in scenes like the Pods emerging, the more expensive units have a more visceral way of delivering bass, including at moderate levels. However, unless you have something like the DD-18 or Maestro XL for a direct comparison, you won't think you are missing anything.

Taken on its own, the Ultra is excellent. Whe one considers this driver is now 4 years old, and that SVS is planning a larger Ultra Driver in the near future, once again, it becomes clear that competition is the consumer's friend.

****The VTF-3 HO did not fare as well in our larger room as it did in the basement. However, pending receiving the new amp and driver, I think it is proper to say it is a very good $900 subwoofer whose flaws will hopefully be corrected with the upgrades which Hsu Research is handling at its own expense.

Look for an updated report at that time.

I wanted to keep this summary short, in an attempt to bore you as little as possible. Any specific questions will be answered as well as I am able to answer...

When I was a kid I pulled a 6x9 out of a junk-yard car and mounted it in a shoe box that I taped shut. It sounded awesome to me. Later in life I read the speaker cook book and set about building a compound design using 4 12" ScanSpeaks in a dual push-pull arrangement. It was glorious and my friends thought I was a genious. I thought I had broken the genetic code of speaker design and would never again have to pay big bucks for manufactured speakers. JL Audio cured me of this dilusion some years back when they first introduced their W6 car speaker in various enclosure itterations. Every few years since then the JL engineers have introduced ever-more-amazing drivers, and now the f112/ f113 have established a new reference standard. I appreciate their work more for having been through the Do-It-Myself phase.

Ssabripo,

Which ice amp are you talking about ?

I too would like to see a 18" LMS w/ 2000w of power in a sealed box.

This diy project would cost about $2K using a EP2500..

Heck you could add a DEQ2496 and it would still be around <$2.5K

Anyway craigsub, thanks for all the effort...

Regards,
Jose


I'm going to have to slow the roll on the TC-2000 18

I'll be honest and say it, the basket is not tooled and if you don't know much about tooling frames then lets just say its far from cheap which is why most drivers either used stamped steel or a generic cast. The RL-p 18 will happen much sooner, if you DIY'ers are looking of are bang for buck 18 with a big motor and 3" coil, go for that one. It will serve as an awesome IB driver. or large box behemoth.


BTW, what is the F113 talk all about... bring on the G213!!

The guy I went after was the second such guy in a couple days that pretty much had a negative attitude towards anything that wasn't DIY....

I've stated that the Fathom is one heck of a sub and that it's driver is impressive from the very beginning of my postings on this thread...but would I buy it? Nope. Not particularly a negative attitude in the least considering I actually find it to be an impressive package...not one I would considering buying, considering what I already have.

What I like about it in particular is the amp/Eq section. Its impressive to have all of this in one compact package.

Edit: You didn't offend me with anything you posted.

Edit: The fathom is DOPE! :D

And Mark Seaton's SubMersive...that's the one I am waiting for.

Yeah, this is definitely something i've been looking forward to for a while now.

The SUBmersive should arrive here sometime early December. :)

The SUBmersive should arrive here sometime early December. :)
SWEEEEEEEEEEEEET :D

Can someone post the specs and msrp to the Submersive? I've been unable to find
that info on **********. Also, where will this unit be sold?

New,
Here are some specs for you
W17.5" x 24"(with grills) x 24.75" (plus 3/4" tall feet)
100-110lbs
1000 watt amp
2 15 inch subs
And allot of loud low output :D
I know that Mark is working on a website. Hopefully it will be up soon.
Price is $2000 I believe

The SUBmersive should arrive here sometime early December. :)

Guess who has 2 thumbs and is getting 2 of the first production untis?


THIS GUY!

(Sorry my excitement got the best of me)

Can someone post the specs and msrp to the Submersive? I've been unable to find
that info on **********. Also, where will this unit be sold?

The SUBmersive is being produced by Seaton Sound Labs - Mark Seaton, owner, posts here frequently. Drop him a PM, and I am sure he will be happy to answer all your questions.

How did this topic turn into a SUBmersive thread? I thought this was a discussion about the JL Fathom.

Guess all that could be said about the Fathom has been said. Great sub but expensive..

Ppl. are just posting info about other subs in the $1.5-$3k range just to get a feel on how good the Fathom is.

If you can't compare it to some other sub then you don't really have a baseline. ie. I thought I had a good sub till I started hanging out on this forum. :)

Initial Beta tester's are raving about Mark's submersive...

And at the $2k price mark it may be a top performer.. Can't wait for craigsub to get his, so he can compare it to the other subs..

here's some pics:

http://home.comcast.net/~mark_seaton/public-pictures/Sample-SM-2k-03.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~mark_seaton/public-pictures/Sample-SM-2k-14.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~mark_seaton/public-pictures/Stack2.jpg

http://home.comcast.net/~mark_seaton/public-pictures/SM-1-Chry-2.jpg

Regards,
Jose

How did this topic turn into a SUBmersive thread? I thought this was a discussion about the JL Fathom.

yes...and on that note, we can discuss the excursion envelope of the HTW7...modified exclusively for the Fathom and Gotham subwoofers...according to website information...it is mentioned at 3.6 to 4" peak to peak...this puts it in the range of the LMS architecture...only question is how much of this envelope represents linear BL...we know that LMS will be linear to Xmax (~3" peak to peak) with at least a 4" envelope...what we don't know is what BL limit the xmax represents in the two HTW7 implementations...i must confess, i've underestimated this driver a little but i'm still convinced that, once released, the LMS-5400 will deliver performance on the outer edge of subwooferdom... ;)

Jose, thanks for those pictures. They really give me a sense of what to expect ;)

yes...and on that note, we can discuss the excursion envelope of the HTW7...modified exclusively for the Fathom and Gotham subwoofers...according to website information...it is mentioned at 3.6 to 4" peak to peak...this puts it in the range of the LMS architecture...only question is how much of this envelope represents linear BL...we know that LMS will be linear to Xmax (~3" peak to peak) with at least a 4" envelope...what we don't know is what BL limit the xmax represents in the two HTW7 implementations...i must confess, i've underestimated this driver a little but i'm still convinced that, once released, the LMS-5400 will deliver performance on the outer edge of subwooferdom... ;)

Hey kramskoi -

This post by Manville should answer your questions concerning the excursion.

Here is the link. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8507564&&#post8507564)

Linear, peak-to-peak excursion is 2.7 inches for the f113

Hey kramskoi -

This post by Manville should answer your questions concerning the excursion.

Here is the link. (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8507564&&#post8507564)

thanks, guess i've been out the loop for awhile on JL audio...so i guess ~32mm like the 13w7... ;)

thanks, guess i've been out the loop for awhile on JL audio...so i guess ~32mm like the 13w7... ;)

Or ~34.29mm to exact... ;)

Yeah, that thread was nestled a few pages back.

yes...and on that note, we can discuss the excursion envelope of the HTW7...modified exclusively for the Fathom and Gotham subwoofers...according to website information...it is mentioned at 3.6 to 4" peak to peak...this puts it in the range of the LMS architecture...only question is how much of this envelope represents linear BL...we know that LMS will be linear to Xmax (~3" peak to peak) with at least a 4" envelope...what we don't know is what BL limit the xmax represents in the two HTW7 implementations...i must confess, i've underestimated this driver a little but i'm still convinced that, once released, the LMS-5400 will deliver performance on the outer edge of subwooferdom... ;)
that's exactly what I'm waiting to see too!!! Being a car audio buff, I know exactly what JL brings to the table in terms of performance and SQ. the Fanthom driver seems to have around a 32mm Xmax which is impressive in its own right, and given the early reports of the SQ, I wouldn't doubt that it is linear throughout the BL curve vs displacement.

Until the LMS5400 is released, we can only speculate, but one advantage (theoretically at least) that the LMT based motors bring to the table is how well the BLvsDisplacement curves behave throughout :
http://pichostwizard.com/img/296941.jpg

Regardless, the performance of the F113 seems to have answered some of the questions with regards to a single Sealed Driver with good amps/EQ/etc performing not only in musicality terms , but in extension as well! I can only imagine what the possibilities will be for other Sealed variants in the near future, like an 18" LMS5400 with an ICE amp and good EQ in a sealed enclosure, tuned to the mid teens! http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/images/smilies/nerd.gif

Sorry if I sidetracked the discussion by bringing up the SUBmersive. That was not my intention at all. I am actually quite riveted by this thread and am wholeheartedly enjoying the progression and the rave reviews of the Fathoms. I've been a big fan of JL for quite some time (my entire car audio system is JL Audio, installed by me). I only brought up Mark's design because Craig had mentioned that it is going to be one of the subs that will be compared to this bad mamma jamma.

So Jose was right, it was just sort of a point of reference thing. I plan on upgrading my theater piece by piece over the next year, and I am just wondering at this point how much I should be potentially setting aside for the subs I will be getting.

Will the up-coming comparison be between a DD18? Is there a DD15 for comparison as well? Someone else here may havew compared the DD15 to the DD18 already, are they pretty much the same? Just curious. I'm looking for 2 subs for a (semi) reference theater in my new house. I'm also looking for a new line of subs to sell as my reference small subwoofer. (Snell Sub24 is my current reference, but it is too big for most clients.)

Patrick
Merkle Audio Video, Inc
Fort Wayne, IN

Will the up-coming comparison be between a DD18? Is there a DD15 for comparison as well? Someone else here may havew compared the DD15 to the DD18 already, are they pretty much the same? Just curious. I'm looking for 2 subs for a (semi) reference theater in my new house. I'm also looking for a new line of subs to sell as my reference small subwoofer. (Snell Sub24 is my current reference, but it is too big for most clients.)

Patrick
Merkle Audio Video, Inc
Fort Wayne, IN

We won't have a DD-15 here, but having heard the 2, the DD-15 and DD-18 are difficult to distinguish - the 18 having a little more power.

The Fathom 112/113 is well suited to the individual looking for amazing bass from a small enclosure. Unlike many other subs promising results from a smaller box, these guys deliver, big time.

the Fanthom has landed. Second 113 as arrived.

question....when setting up a second sub does it matter about lenth of wire matching, is it better to split off the reciever or daisy chain, do you set up one at a time or eq them while both are playing. Probably basic stuff for most of you guys. Any other advise would be helpfull.

the Fanthom has landed. Second 113 as arrived.

question....when setting up a second sub does it matter about lenth of wire matching, is it better to split off the reciever or daisy chain, do you set up one at a time or eq them while both are playing. Probably basic stuff for most of you guys. Any other advise would be helpfull.

You will want to daisy chain, as that will allow ARO to treat the 2 subs as 1. Make sure to get a balanced cable to do this, as daisy chaining using RCA won't work.

I EQd them both at the same time and It seemed to work well. Switch to "variable" and set the gain to about 3 oclock. Carl Kennedy from the main office called me at home and talked to me about my thoughts on the sub. One thing he said was to run a Y connector to each sub and not to use the daisy chain if I didn't need to. Thats not a problem for me as my Anthem D1 has two sub outs. He said something about the daisy chain was used more for custum installaions where it was more convevient to run one cable to a sub then daisy chain to the other sub. Step in here Manville if I'm not saying this right. By the way this Carl was a great guy. Left me his cell phone # in case any questions came up.

Craig answered while I was typing. I mean not to daisy chain and run the subs that way all the time. I think in a perfect setup that Craig is right to use the daisy chain to ARO. I don't have a balanced cable long enough to reach between my subs, so couldn't do the setup that way.

We won't have a DD-15 here, but having heard the 2, the DD-15 and DD-18 are difficult to distinguish - the 18 having a little more power.

The Fathom 112/113 is well suited to the individual looking for amazing bass from a small enclosure. Unlike many other subs promising results from a smaller box, these guys deliver, big time.

The DD18 has the output capability of TWO DD15's and based on some rough math, the f113 should have about the same if not slightly more output capability than a single DD15 (even though the DD15 has a driver with almost twice the surface area of the f113, the f113 has slightly more than twice the linear excursion). Of course output capability is not the end-all subwoofer performance parameter, but since both subs have been noted to have exceptional sound quality, this may be one area that separates the two, if only slightly. The DD15 does have the advantage of the more sophisticated room EQ function with a full video display of the room response.

FWIW the DD15 and the f113 are also roughly the same size and I wouldn't consider either of them small. Medium sized for an audiophile and large sized for the rest of the world. :D Small to me is one of those little one cubic foot Sunfire units.

Looking forward to the subjective test between the DD18 and the f113. I think the DD will win, but I'm keeping an open mind.

Originally Posted by Eclipse911t

...I'm also looking for a new line of subs to sell as my reference small subwoofer. (Snell Sub24 is my current reference, but it is too big for most clients.)

JL Audio also has the new f110, a 10" sub with A.R.O.

From the JL press release:

Specifications:
Enclosure Type: Sealed
Driver: Single 10-inch (nominal diameter)
Effective Piston Area: 60 square inches
Effective Displacement: 160 cu.in. (2.6 liters)
Amplifier Power: 900 Watts RMS short-term
Dimensions (H x W x D), including feet and grille:
15.64 inches x 12.92 inches x 17.27 inches
(397 mm x 328 mm x 439 mm)

I saw that model in the pricing info I got, but this is the first I've heard of it outside of from dealers. I'm eager to compare it to some of the other smaller offerings.

Patrick

my info says the f110 MSRP = $2000

I suspect that the F110 will somewhat compare to the Velo DD-12. Maybe a little more output, but then again, its box is around 15% larger. Seems to me that the whole point of these high excursion woofers is to be able to shrink the size of the sub and not lose performance, no? This is also the point of the Velodyne DD's and Sunfires. If the performance of JL woofers is that superior, it will indeed be a wake-up call to both Velo and Sunfire, but you really have to eliminate box size from the equation. The F113 box is not tiny by any means.

The DD18 has the output capability of TWO DD15's and based on some rough math, the f113 should have about the same if not slightly more output capability than a single DD15 (even though the DD15 has a driver with almost twice the surface area of the f113, the f113 has slightly more than twice the linear excursion). Of course output capability is not the end-all subwoofer performance parameter, but since both subs have been noted to have exceptional sound quality, this may be one area that separates the two, if only slightly. The DD15 does have the advantage of the more sophisticated room EQ function with a full video display of the room response.

FWIW the DD15 and the f113 are also roughly the same size and I wouldn't consider either of them small. Medium sized for an audiophile and large sized for the rest of the world. :D Small to me is one of those little one cubic foot Sunfire units.

Looking forward to the subjective test between the DD18 and the f113. I think the DD will win, but I'm keeping an open mind.

Just for a little sanity check here, the DD18 hardly has the performance of 2 DD15s. The differences are only about 3dB down low increasing to 4-5dB stronger above 40Hz. I fully expect the f113 to have greater dynamic capability than the DD18 down low, with the DD18 having lower measured THD. Of course straight THD doesn't always correlate to what is audible.

Question...

After looking at the monstrous magnet structure of these woofs, I'm curious to know whether or not they're shielded. I'm guessing that if not, they could purple up a tv from 5-6 ft away!

Perhaps, but what's he likely-hood of this sub going into a CRT based HT that is small enough to cause this problem. I am sure it won't be a problem with our clients. It may be a problem among some enthusiasts here, but you guys are the problem solving type, yes?

Patrick

Just for a little sanity check here, the DD18 hardly has the performance of 2 DD15s. The differences are only about 3dB down low increasing to 4-5dB stronger above 40Hz. I fully expect the f113 to have greater dynamic capability than the DD18 down low, with the DD18 having lower measured THD. Of course straight THD doesn't always correlate to what is audible.

The DD18 has a surface area of 181.5 inches while the DD15 has a surface area of only 126.7 inches. So to be more factual, the DD18 is equal to 1.4 DD15's. My mistake. I was thinking of the difference between the DD12 and the DD15, which is closer to two times the output.

I'll also admit that my rough math on the output of the DD18 vs f113 was considerably off.

msmith_JL with JL audio has stated that the effective displacement of the f113 is 386 cu.in.

Peak to peak excursion x effective piston area = Effective displacement
f113: 3.6 x 107.35= 386 cu.in.
DD18: 1.25 x 181.5 = 226 cu. in.

It now seems that the f113 will handily beat the DD18.

Looks like I might be replacing my DD15 with the f113 in the future. Same size box with more output than a DD18! Holy crap that f113 has wicked excursion!

Another simpleton question...

Even though the amp is rated at 2500 watts, how can it suck more power than a standard 15A circuit is rated to put out (1800 watts) without tripping breakers? Perhaps most folks now have 20A service?

And if your running 2 F113s on a 15A circuit do you risk an electrical fire?

Peak to peak excursion x effective piston area = Effective displacement
f113: 3.6 x 107.35= 386 cu.in.
DD18: 1.25 x 181.5 = 226 cu. in.

It now seems that the f113 will handily beat the DD18.

Looks like I might be replacing my DD15 with the f113 in the future. Same size box with more output than a DD18! Holy crap that f113 has wicked excursion!

usually, 18" drivers end up being more sensitive than smaller ones...we know that the original 13w7 has ~86 dB sensitivity...unless this has been raised with the two HTW7 implementations then it may end up being a wash for output, with distortion performance going to the DD-18... ;)

The DD18 has a surface area of 181.5 inches while the DD15 has a surface area of only 126.7 inches. So to be more factual, the DD18 is equal to 1.4 DD15's. My mistake. I was thinking of the difference between the DD12 and the DD15, which is closer to two times the output.

I'll also admit that my rough math on the output of the DD18 vs f113 was considerably off.

msmith_JL with JL audio has stated that the effective displacement of the f113 is 386 cu.in.

Peak to peak excursion x effective piston area = Effective displacement
f113: 3.6 x 107.35= 386 cu.in.
DD18: 1.25 x 181.5 = 226 cu. in.

It now seems that the f113 will handily beat the DD18.

Looks like I might be replacing my DD15 with the f113 in the future. Same size box with more output than a DD18! Holy crap that f113 has wicked excursion!

Just so you know, you're using the linear excursion for the DD18 calculation but not for the f113's. That isn't exactly fair, but yes, the 113 still has a higher displacement.

Yes, and the DD-18 also has a higher displacement as well. I thought I once read that the Velo's peak to peak is limited to around 2". Like Willd said, LINEAR is what counts. And btw, I'd rather push a larger driver a smaller distance than a smaller driver a larger one.

One of the advantages a manufacture like JL Audio brings to the party is the capacity to manipulate every facit of the design and engineering process. Most other manufactures are not able to do this. They must source a driver and an amplifier (if an active design), and then match them to an enclosure design that is best suited to the drivers' parameters and the intended performance goals.

JL, on the other hand, can design and manufacture (in house) the optimum driver motor for an intended box dimension and then develop and build the appropriate electronics to join all the elements. All manufactures do battle with the same laws of physics. JL Audio just has more sophisticated weaponry.

Yes, building your own driver does indeed have its advantages. Precious few companies do this. I'm not sure, but I think that Velodyne does as well.

AudioArchitect wrote:

"Our DD-12 sounded muddy and weak compared to the Fathom".

Well, I can understand "weak", but I've never heard any of the DD's described as "muddy" before. Being a DD owner, I wonder if AudioArchitect might be kind enough to expound on the "muddy" thing?

Ran

I'm also still waiting for the 2500 watts from a 15 amp circuit. Or the 3800 from the Gotham. I realize big amps have big caps and that makes a difference, but I've also seen some big amps with some big power requirements as well. Boulder amps come to mind.

Any definitive answers? Manville?

Thanks in advance,
Patrick

1) A "15 Amp" circuit is capable of delivering well over 15 amps for short periods without danger and without tripping breakers. Usually 30 amps for well over a couple of seconds is attainable. This headroom is there to account for high on-rush current demands from appliances. This headroom gives even a Gotham enough room to operate off a standard outlet. A pair of Fathoms can trip a 15A breaker, but usually only with extended test tones at very high SPL levels. A single Fathom won't trip a breaker in our experience. We utilize highly efficient Class D (switching) amplifiers which also helps keep current demands down.

2) The "2500 watt" figure is based on the rail voltage of the amplifier referenced to the nominal driver impedance (3 ohms). Throughout most of the bass range, the actual impedance is significantly higher than 3 ohms and will not demand that much power be produced (although the rail voltages remain high and equivalent to 2500 W into 3 ohms). This phenomenon (hardly unique to our products) helps keep current drawn from the outlet at manageable levels in real world use. Were you to connect the Fathom amplifier to a 3 ohm resistive load, you would definitely run into problems... but since this is a closed system and we know its impedance characteristics, we can run things pretty close to the limit without getting in trouble.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Just so you know, you're using the linear excursion for the DD18 calculation but not for the f113's. That isn't exactly fair, but yes, the 113 still has a higher displacement.

You're right. Even with linear excursion though, the f113 has 290 cu. in. of displacement compared to the DD18's 226 cu. in.. Pretty remarkable that a 13" driver can outperform an 18" driver, then again the with the servo in the DD18 the distortion will be lower which could make it sound subjectively better. Suppose it depends on the room size the the actual output needed.

2Manville: I'm surprised that JL Audio has to hide behind "marketing ploys..."The "2500 watt" figure is based on the rail voltage of the amplifier referenced to the nominal driver impedance (3 ohms) ".
What is the actual continues power of your amp? 1000 watts? 150 watts? After all, you are not the only company that uses class D amps. Regardless of the number, I'm very happy with the performance of my f113, but without the marketing BS.
Further more, I was somewhat suprised that when Canadian Customs called JL Audio to inquire if the parts were made in USA, and the official response by JL Audio was that it "only assembles the subs" in US. So that begs the question where are the speakers, amp, etc. made? And again, I will say, that f113 blew me away, regardless were it was made. But fact are facts...no? Can you enlighten us?

Yes, and the DD-18 also has a higher displacement as well. I thought I once read that the Velo's peak to peak is limited to around 2". Like Willd said, LINEAR is what counts. And btw, I'd rather push a larger driver a smaller distance than a smaller driver a larger one.


The peak to peak MAY be 2", but the only mention I could find of the excursion of the DD line is in their brochure, which says, "greater than 1-1/4 inches".

Here's the brochure. The mention of the excursion of the drivers is on the third page in the section titled "Driver Technology: Dual Tandem Voice Coil
and Kevlar-Reinforced Cones".

http://www.velodyne.com/velodyne/products/brochures/digital%20drive.pdf

You're right. Even with linear excursion though, the f113 has 290 cu. in. of displacement compared to the DD18's 226 cu. in.. Pretty remarkable that a 13" driver can outperform an 18" driver, then again the with the servo in the DD18 the distortion will be lower which could make it sound subjectively better. Suppose it depends on the room size the the actual output needed.

Its doesn't surprise me at all that a smaller driver can have significantly higher displacement.

Originally Posted by theranman

AudioArchitect wrote:

"Our DD-12 sounded muddy and weak compared to the Fathom".

Well, I can understand "weak", but I've never heard any of the DD's described as "muddy" before. Being a DD owner, I wonder if AudioArchitect might be kind enough to expound on the "muddy" thing?
I don't want to answer for AudioArchitect, but I auditioned the DD-12 and DD-15 and was also considering two SVS SB12+ with the Velo SVS-1. Subjectively, the f113 has a more natural or realistic presence than the Velodyne or SVS IMO.

The Velodyne DD's are very good but the f113 presents a more convincing sound stage especially when listening to LFE and music at the same time in a movie. Everything is "compared to what" and I would call the sound from the DD's unfocussed or smeared compared to the f113. I hope you have a chance to listen to the f113, hear the difference, and judge for yourself.

Craigsub or msmith_JL:

I currently own the Velodyne DD15, and my question is, would I benefit or do I need the extra output of the f113?

The DD15 is in a 2700 cu foot room that has a single door opening to the kitchen, which is about the same size as the room the sub is in. I have cranked my system (temporarily) to volumes much louder than I would normally listen (100+ dB) and the DD15 never sounded like it had reached it its limit, but there are times that I wish there was more "slam" and "impact". I do have a dip at 50Hz in my primary listening position, which doesn't help matters, but even when I step out of that null, I still wish there were more slam. I want to be startled, I want my pants to flap and I want to be smacked in the chest with bass power. :D

FWIW I had the DD18 for a few months, giving it up because it was just too huge, but even with that sub I wanted more punch.

The peak to peak MAY be 2", but the only mention I could find of the excursion of the DD line is in their brochure, which says, "greater than 1-1/4 inches".

Here's the brochure. The mention of the excursion of the drivers is on the third page in the section titled "Driver Technology: Dual Tandem Voice Coil
and Kevlar-Reinforced Cones".

http://www.velodyne.com/velodyne/products/brochures/digital%20drive.pdf

Hifisponge, they must have been talking about one-way excursion in their brochure! So greater than 2.5" peak-to-peak. :)

2Manville: I'm surprised that JL Audio has to hide behind "marketing ploys..."The "2500 watt" figure is based on the rail voltage of the amplifier referenced to the nominal driver impedance (3 ohms) ".
What is the actual continues power of your amp? 1000 watts? 150 watts? After all, you are not the only company that uses class D amps. Regardless of the number, I'm very happy with the performance of my f113, but without the marketing BS.
Further more, I was somewhat suprised that when Canadian Customs called JL Audio to inquire if the parts were made in USA, and the official response by JL Audio was that it "only assembles the subs" in US. So that begs the question where are the speakers, amp, etc. made? And again, I will say, that f113 blew me away, regardless were it was made. But fact are facts...no? Can you enlighten us?

Klipschter... I understand where you're coming from... let me see if I can explain your points one by one.

Amplifier power is always stated into a resistive load and this is generally based on the nominal impedance of the expected speaker load. If you were to buy a stand-alone amplifier that could do what the Fathom f113's amplifier can do, it would need to be able to produce 2500 watts into a 3 ohm resistive load. The fact that the actual driver impedance varies is not unique to the Fathom, it is a common and well-understood behavior of any loudspeaker... a "3 ohm" speaker in a box might have an impedance of 40 ohms or more at resonance, for example. As you move higher or lower in the bass range the impedance decreases in a sealed enclosure.

The fact is that the Fathom's amplifier can comfortably produce 2500W into 3 ohms for a fairly long period of time (several seconds), although not forever and ever because it would overheat if asked to do so for more than a minute or so. At very low frequencies (sub 20 Hz) the amplifier can in fact be called upon to produce power of that magnitude in typical use... and that power is needed in order to get the low frequency extension with high output that the product is capable of. By accounting for the duty cycle demanded by HT or music program material and by balancing the amplifier's needs relative to the actual impedance of the system, we can manage heat and current draw without having to dial back dynamic capability. The "short-term" RMS power I'm referring to should not be confused with "peak power" which is good for only fractions of a second.

Once again, if you were building a Fathom-like product with an outboard amp... it would need to be a 2500W amplifier into 3 ohms, just like the Fathom's amp, in order to deliver the performance of a Fathom... that's why we refer to it that way.

As for the origin of the Fathom, it is quite an international collaboration (as are most audio products nowadays). The drivers are manufactured in Miramar, Florida with components parts sourced in the U.S. and overseas (things like magnets and baskets, for example). The amplifier and processor modules are manufactured overseas. All final assembly and testing is done in Miramar, Florida. In order to qualify as "MADE IN USA" it has to be 51% American parts by value, which is not the case. This is why it is labeled "Manufactured in USA with Imported and Domestic Components" and why Canadian Customs gave you that response. We file our origin documentation following the letter of the law and do not play games with labeling, never have. There are very few speaker or electronic products that meet "MADE IN USA" standards nowadays. One could write a whole book about why that is the case, but I'll leave it at that for now.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Hifisponge, they must have been talking about one-way excursion in their brochure! So greater than 2.5" peak-to-peak. :)

I googled "Velodyne DD excursion" and found a review of the DD18 in Stereophile that states "(the DD18 has) an 18" dual-coil woofer with a linear excursion of 1.25" peak-peak".

2Manville: Thank you for the clarification between "short-term" RMS power and "peak power", and the "US content...51% American parts by value", since that was not my impression (and I wish I knew that at the customs), that I got from this forum. Much appreciated...f113 rocks!...and thanx again.

I googled "Velodyne DD excursion" and found a review of the DD18 in Stereophile that states "(the DD18 has) an 18" dual-coil woofer with a linear excursion of 1.25" peak-peak".

Oh yes, you were talking about linear excursion capability, that would certainly be more plausible.

Klipschter... I understand where you're coming from... let me see if I can explain your points one by one.

Amplifier power is always stated into a resistive load and this is generally based on the nominal impedance of the expected speaker load. If you were to buy a stand-alone amplifier that could do what the Fathom f113's amplifier can do, it would need to be able to produce 2500 watts into a 3 ohm resistive load. The fact that the actual driver impedance varies is not unique to the Fathom, it is a common and well-understood behavior of any loudspeaker... a "3 ohm" speaker in a box might have an impedance of 40 ohms or more at resonance, for example. As you move higher or lower in the bass range the impedance decreases in a sealed enclosure.

The fact is that the Fathom's amplifier can comfortably produce 2500W into 3 ohms for a fairly long period of time (several seconds), although not forever and ever because it would overheat if asked to do so for more than a minute or so. At very low frequencies (sub 20 Hz) the amplifier can in fact be called upon to produce power of that magnitude in typical use... and that power is needed in order to get the low frequency extension with high output that the product is capable of. By accounting for the duty cycle demanded by HT or music program material and by balancing the amplifier's needs relative to the actual impedance of the system, we can manage heat and current draw without having to dial back dynamic capability. The "short-term" RMS power I'm referring to should not be confused with "peak power" which is good for only fractions of a second.

Once again, if you were building a Fathom-like product with an outboard amp... it would need to be a 2500W amplifier into 3 ohms, just like the Fathom's amp, in order to deliver the performance of a Fathom... that's why we refer to it that way.

As for the origin of the Fathom, it is quite an international collaboration (as are most audio products nowadays). The drivers are manufactured in Miramar, Florida with components parts sourced in the U.S. and overseas (things like magnets and baskets, for example). The amplifier and processor modules are manufactured overseas. All final assembly and testing is done in Miramar, Florida. In order to qualify as "MADE IN USA" it has to be 51% American parts by value, which is not the case. This is why it is labeled "Manufactured in USA with Imported and Domestic Components" and why Canadian Customs gave you that response. We file our origin documentation following the letter of the law and do not play games with labeling, never have. There are very few speaker or electronic products that meet "MADE IN USA" standards nowadays. One could write a whole book about why that is the case, but I'll leave it at that for now.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.


Manville,
Isn't this really the same issue that Bob Carver took some heat for about a decade ago with his True Subwoofer amps? The Sunfire ads claimed a very high output, but Bob had to explain that various factors (impedence, back-emf, etc.) limited the "real" amp output to roughly 250-300 watts.
Just out of curiousity, is the "linear" throw of the subs in the 60mm+ peak-to-peak range (i.e., are they a form of linear motor toplogy, like TC's LMT, where driver in linear through most of it's operating range)?
JP

I don't want to answer for AudioArchitect, but I auditioned the DD-12 and DD-15 and was also considering two SVS SB12+ with the Velo SVS-1. Subjectively, the f113 has a more natural or realistic presence than the Velodyne or SVS IMO.

The Velodyne DD's are very good but the f113 presents a more convincing sound stage especially when listening to LFE and music at the same time in a movie. Everything is "compared to what" and I would call the sound from the DD's unfocussed or smeared compared to the f113. I hope you have a chance to listen to the f113, hear the difference, and judge for yourself.

Good answer.

The bar has been set. Velodyne will have to go back to the drawing board if they want to compete with JL.

We have both the DD and Fathom in our showroom for the unbelievers out there. :D

Well, if you say you sell BOTH models, I'll have to admit that I'm now a bit more intrigued...

Are the differences as apparent at low to moderate listening levels? I wonder how much the solidity of the Fathom's enclosure contributes to the "tightness" of the sound and whether adding weight to the top of a Velo DD could make a difference? Do you think an F110 would outperform a DD-12? I'd be curious to hear a head-to-head demo...

Guys - Sorry about no info this weekend. It is our 17th wedding anniversary, and what started as my wife and I staying home and relaxing turned into a pretty cool party yesterday. We had a great time.

Today is our youngest's 10th birthday, and he has plans for Dad - I will try to get some objective data posted on the 113 and DD-18 later today, if circumstances allow.

Originally Posted by theranman
Are the differences as apparent at low to moderate listening levels?I think so...

I can't find S/N ratio numbers but the f113's amplifier is dead quiet at idle. My mains are running with an Anthem PVA-7 with a claimed S/N ratio of -122 dB and the f113 seems to be every bit as quiet. I think this is important as I don't want to be distracted with hiss or noise during a moment of silence in a movie. I belive it also helps with the perceived dynamic range as well. (I'm not saying the Velo is lacking in this respect.)

I wonder how much the solidity of the Fathom's enclosure contributes to the "tightness" of the sound and whether adding weight to the top of a Velo DD could make a difference?Sorry, I doubt it. I think it would just sound like a Velo DD with a weight on top.

Do you think an F110 would outperform a DD-12? I'd be curious to hear a head-to-head demo...Don't know. But if the f110 is "voiced" like the f113 I would say yes it will.

I googled "Velodyne DD excursion" and found a review of the DD18 in Stereophile that states "(the DD18 has) an 18" dual-coil woofer with a linear excursion of 1.25" peak-peak".
Yep, and the same review also says "Although the driver's excursion has been increased to 1.25" from the HG-18's 0.75", the DD-18 can reach 1.75" on transients."

It is our 17th wedding anniversary, and what started as my wife and I staying home and relaxing turned into a pretty cool party yesterday. We had a great time.

Congrats on your 17th dude. Remember, these are just speakers...way to take care of stuff on the home front. You're not such a fanatic after all! :D

Yep, and the same review also says "Although the driver's excursion has been increased to 1.25" from the HG-18's 0.75", the DD-18 can reach 1.75" on transients."

...on a transient that kicks the driver outside the gap...in other words, beyond linear.

I will try to get some objective data posted on the 113 and DD-18 later today, if circumstances allow.
Any updates? :D

Hi all ... We actually had a small window of opportunity to do some Outdoor GP testing. Rain was looking imminent, so I just took the following max output shots of the DD-18 and Fathom 113...

DD-18 @ 16 Hz:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/dd1816Hz.jpg

DD-18 @ 20 Hz:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/dd1820Hz.jpg

DD-18 @ 25 Hz:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/dd1825Hz.jpg

Fathom 113 @ 16 Hz:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/11316Hz.jpg

Fathom 113 @ 20 Hz

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/11320Hz.jpg

Fathom 113 @ 25 Hz

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v171/craigsub/11325Hz.jpg

Hi all ... We actually had a small window of opportunity to do some Outdoor GP testing. Rain was looking imminent, so I just took the following max output shots of the DD-18 and Fathom 113...


YIKES.

-Eli

Wow, Craig. Just wow.

F113 = New Hotness

DD-18 = Old and Busted

I haven't heard the DD18, but I knew I had something special the first time I heard the F113 set up in the house. That is, of course, my subjective findings only!

The DD-18 is still a great subwoofer ... just outgunned by what JL has done. For comparison purposes, I just took a peak at the graphs of the DD-18 from AVTalk.

16 Hz - a bit over 90 dB (AVTalk) compared to the 90.697 here

20 Hz - about 96 dB (AVTalk) compared to the 96.363 dB here

25 Hz - about 101 dB (AVTalk) compared to the 103.09 dB here

JL has really delivered something here ... my new reference subwoofer from (as noted also by nethomas) subjective tests bests my old reference in the objective, too.

VERY well done.

Craig great stuff as always. Maybe you could write a book on how to read your graphs for someone like me. Just call it "Reading My Graphs for Dummys". I did get the high numbers right and thought the f113 did do better, but I have now idear what all of the bars mean. I am guessing db at hz. Now since you have the numbers how does it compare to the DD-18 during play back. Do you feel like you are missing something without the DD-18 or do you fell like you have been missing something with the f113. I am sure they are really close to each other with both having some strengths over the other. In about 2 months we will know which one is really the best because the other one will have been sold. But really if the f 113 stands up to the DD-18 you have to wander what would happen if JL made a 15" or even and 18" and put it in a bigger box like the velodyne. I guess we will find out one day because the way the F 113 is doing for JL to top it they will have to pull something out of their, well I don't know where they will pull it from but I do know we will all benefit from it.

Thanks again Craig for all the hard work you do for us.

Allen

Velodyne DD18 @ 25 Hz - 103.09 dB
JL Audio F113 @ 25 Hz - 109.78 dB

So that's almost a 7 dB difference. Wouldn't that mean that even dual DD18s couldn't keep up with the F113? :eek:

Craig great stuff as always. Maybe you could write a book on how to read your graphs for someone like me. Just call it "Reading My Graphs for Dummys". I did get the high numbers right and thought the f113 did do better, but I have now idear what all of the bars mean. I am guessing db at hz.

The total sound pressure is the "Input Level dB SPL avg" number. Ignore the other value (peak SPL).

The total sound pressure is represented almost completely by the test frequency (fundamental); the distortion harmonics add virtually nothing to the total SPL at the THD levels being shown on these graphs. So for all casual intents and purposes, the total average SPL in the window is also the total SPL of the fundamental.

The largest peak in the graph is the fundamental test frequency. The lower peaks to the right represent distortion harmonics at multiples of the fundamental test frequency.

A quick and dirty guesstimate on total harmonic distortion (THD) is that if the first distortion harmonic (technically defined as the 2nd order distortion harmonic) is about 20 dB lower than the total sound pressure of the fundamental, then the THD is about 10%.

100 dB @ 20 Hz @ 2M GP @ <10% THD
110 dB @ 25 Hz @ 2M GP @ <10% THD

Excellent for any subwoofer, but simply outstanding for a single driver sealed design.

In the WDD series they showed graphs of dynamic compression across the frequency range. Any idea how they compare in that reguard? Do you have the ability to make a similar graph or to measure dynamic compression?

Patrick

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/features/604way/index4.html

The first graph on this page is what i am referring to.

Patrick

"Thanks again Craig for all the hard work you do for us."

here, here

The total sound pressure is the "Input Level dB SPL avg" number. Ignore the other value (peak SPL).

The total sound pressure is represented almost completely by the test frequency (fundamental); the distortion harmonics add virtually nothing to the total SPL at the THD levels being shown on these graphs. So for all casual intents and purposes, the total average SPL in the window is also the total SPL of the fundamental.

The largest peak in the graph is the fundamental test frequency. The lower peaks to the right represent distortion harmonics at multiples of the fundamental test frequency.

A quick and dirty guesstimate on total harmonic distortion (THD) is that if the first distortion harmonic (technically defined as the 2nd order distortion harmonic) is about 20 dB lower than the total sound pressure of the fundamental, then the THD is about 10%.

100 dB @ 20 Hz @ 2M GP @ <10% THD
110 dB @ 25 Hz @ 2M GP @ <10% THD

Excellent for any subwoofer, but simply outstanding for a single driver sealed design.

Well said, as usual, Ed. Here are some examples of what Ed was talking about when adding decibels.

100 dB + 90 dB = 100.4 dB
100 dB + 77 dB = 100 dB ... In the case of the 20 Hz sine wave in the 113, the 2nd Harmonic is 77 dB to the 100 dB fundamental, and adds "nothing" to the SPL measured.

When posting these graphs, It really was not a surprise that the 113 did so well in the measurements - this subwoofer delivers some excellent DEEP bass. It really is the best I have heard, and has also amazed people who have been over to the house to hear it.

A couple of "thank you"'s are in order, too.

1. Thanks to Charley for having all the data on AVTalk - it is nice to have a reference.

2. Thanks also to Ilkka - he sent a couple of ideas about settings in TrueRTA which I "thought" I knew, but his confirmation helped a great deal.

3. Thanks to all here for the kind words and excellent participation.

4. Finally, Thanks to Manville for assisting me in finding a dealer to get a pair of these fantastic subwoofers.

As an aside, these thank you notes are not an indication of ending the testing - just wanted to thank people before forgetting ... :D

Craig great stuff as always. Maybe you could write a book on how to read your graphs for someone like me. Just call it "Reading My Graphs for Dummys". I did get the high numbers right and thought the f113 did do better, but I have now idear what all of the bars mean. I am guessing db at hz. Now since you have the numbers how does it compare to the DD-18 during play back. Do you feel like you are missing something without the DD-18 or do you fell like you have been missing something with the f113. I am sure they are really close to each other with both having some strengths over the other. In about 2 months we will know which one is really the best because the other one will have been sold. But really if the f 113 stands up to the DD-18 you have to wander what would happen if JL made a 15" or even and 18" and put it in a bigger box like the velodyne. I guess we will find out one day because the way the F 113 is doing for JL to top it they will have to pull something out of their, well I don't know where they will pull it from but I do know we will all benefit from it.

Thanks again Craig for all the hard work you do for us.

Allen

Allen - I cannot begin to imagine what the box would have to be like to support an 18 inch driver with the excursion of the F113's driver.

JL is actually going in a more "house friendly" idea - The Gotham for those who want one box, or a pair of 113's for those who want best value, within their home audio subwoofers.

The twin drivers will have about the same output as a single 19 inch driver with the same excursion.

That being said, it IS fun to speculate about an 18 inch version of this subwoofer ... :eek:

Ed did a great job of answering your question... hopefully it made sense of all this for you.

Thanks Craig for proving that my ears are not failing me. I have been listening to quality sound for over 30 years, starting with the Infinity Quantum II, and I have never heard a cleaner, crisper sub in my life. I was actually looking into a DD18 until I stumbled upon the new JlAudio line. My ears said buy it, so that's what I did. But you & nethomas motivated me into actually finding a local dealer. I guess, if you can afford it, how can you go wrong when you get cheaper ( half the retail of the DD18 OTD ), better and considering it's WAF friendly, how can you go wrong.

No question about it now. Its definitely the quality reference sub to beat.

Wow simply amazing! Is there a limit to how many of these subwoofers you can chain together? How many would you need to meet or exceed something like the Genelec HTS6?

Dayum! excellent results for any sub, but for a single 13" driver in a sealed box, that's just outstanding!! :eek: :)

Couple of us here in South Florida will be traveling to the JL facilities in the next couple of weeks, and hopefully we can get a sneak peak at this puppy....

this is good stuff.

Originally Posted by Ron Alcasid
Wow simply amazing! Is there a limit to how many of these subwoofers you can chain together?...According to the owner's manual "UP to ten Fathoms may be connected in this (Master to Slave) configuration". I would imagine you could do more with additional line inputs.

Of course then there is the additional circuits needed to support the current draw of the "2500 watt RMS short-term" amplifiers.

Craig - So is there any sub out there at any cost that can perform as well as the 113 in the same size package? I was just wondering if there is anything out there that has the same performance as this thing. If not would you have thought it was possible before you heard/tested it? lol

Thanks Ed & Craig for breaking it down for me. I think I have a better understanding for them now.
Allen

Dayum! excellent results for any sub, but for a single 13" driver in a sealed box, that's just outstanding!! :eek: :)

Couple of us here in South Florida will be traveling to the JL facilities in the next couple of weeks, and hopefully we can get a sneak peak at this puppy....

this is good stuff.

Sherv - I think you will be impressed ... The 113's are going to take up residence in our Family Room, not the main theater room.

This room is something my wife is more ... particular about ... in terms of looks. One peak at these 2 units stacked, and knowing where they will go, and she was sold. I will FINALLY have good bass in this room.

When it is complete, I will post pics - the basic set up is a new Mitsubishi 73732 from the Medallion series, Rocket 760's/Bigfoot/Arcam Electronics/Toshiba HD DVD player and, of course, the Fathoms.

The Fathoms are remarkable because they deliver such great performance for a reasonable size.

Craig - So is there any sub out there at any cost that can perform as well as the 113 in the same size package? I was just wondering if there is anything out there that has the same performance as this thing. If not would you have thought it was possible before you heard/tested it? lol

I have not heard anything this size to match it, no.

100 dB + 90 dB = 100.4 dB
100 dB + 77 dB = 100 dB ... In the case of the 20 Hz sine wave in the 113, the 2nd Harmonic is 77 dB to the 100 dB fundamental, and adds "nothing" to the SPL measured.

The dB scale is log10, so the sound pressure of the fundamental dominates/controls the total SPL. Converting the sound pressures to Pascals in Craig's above examples will certainly bear this out and makes it much easier to understand and appreciate.

Regardless, just because the distortion harmonics don't increase the total SPL significantly, this does not mean they are inaudible. One can still easily hear certain distortion harmonics which are present at far lower sound pressures than the fundamental.

The audibility of distortion is a function of the harmonic order (upper orders and odd-numbered orders are more easily distinguished) and the presence of any masking sounds present in the source material.

It is my opinion that there is an evil plot going on to divest me of all my money by coming out with all "these wonderful toys". Guess I will have to audition this super sub:-)

Randy, I know where you can get one(or two) just a few miles from you house on Independence Ave. Tell'um Gene Thomas sent ya!!

Why? Why? Why?

Craig, now I simply must make a trip to your Chalet' to experience the Fathoms. Dammit!

(Hmm.....I wonder if there is a trade-in deal somewhere.......)

Randy, I know where you can get one(or two) just a few miles from you house on Independence Ave. Tell'um Gene Thomas sent ya!!I intend to do that as soon as I can scape together some $$. :D

Sherv - I think you will be impressed ... The 113's are going to take up residence in our Family Room, not the main theater room.

This room is something my wife is more ... particular about ... in terms of looks. One peak at these 2 units stacked, and knowing where they will go, and she was sold. I will FINALLY have good bass in this room.

When it is complete, I will post pics - the basic set up is a new Mitsubishi 73732 from the Medallion series, Rocket 760's/Bigfoot/Arcam Electronics/Toshiba HD DVD player and, of course, the Fathoms.

The Fathoms are remarkable because they deliver such great performance for a reasonable size.

I have not heard anything this size to match it, no.
As many subs as you've had going through your living room, to settle on these guys on your family room speaks volumes :) Good stuff. I'm sure is gonna be a killer marriage with the 760s/rsc200....those puppies LOVE sealed subs, and apparently (as per your feedback thus far) the F113s deliver the music goods with outstanding HT performance to match.

I can't wait to take a look at the sub, how is made, the drivers, etc, when we go to the JL facilities....should be fun.

Motion to request all future vendors to move to florida!! who wants to second it? :p

I see a group buy coming.....

Second!

Looks like JL Audio just crashed the party on a lovefest with the typical brand subs. These new developements will send a lot of people back to the drawing board. Great news for the consumer!

Second!
:D ........http://www.htguide.com/forum/images/smilies/icon_thumb.gif

I got to find a sugar momma...... :)

I am going home tonight, Tell my PB12/Ultra-2 that I still love it and that
it has nothing to fear from the new kid on the block.

Then if the evil Fathom starts creeping into my mind, I'll just buy another one!

You guys all realize that we are talking about performance here that most people
will never approach using. 119db in a living room??? better hope the house was
built solid or its coming down. Not to mention what this will do to your ears (and insides.... ) :eek:

I would like to hear one of these, just for kicks. Anybody in Nebraska got them??

I got to find a sugar momma...... :)
http://i130.photobucket.com/albums/p279/snoopyagent007/OT/orlybaby.gif

IYou guys all realize that we are talking about performance here that most people
will never approach using. 119db in a living room??? better hope the house was
built solid or its coming down. Not to mention what this will do to your ears (and insides.... ) :eek:

That is true for many of these big subs....how many of us will ever need the output. For me, it is about sound quality, which so far, every seems to be very positive about in regards to the Fathom....the added output is just a bonus.

That is true for many of these big subs....how many of us will ever need the output. For me, it is about sound quality, which so far, every seems to be very positive about in regards to the Fathom....the added output is just a bonus.Yup. I have the f113 in my main music system. No HT. No sound effects (well, usually not). I use the system for multichannel classical music and the f113 makes a clearly audible improvement, even with nominally large and full-range speakers. I cannot speak for my neighbors but the levels are never really high.

Originally Posted by cschang
For me, it is about sound quality, which so far, every seems to be very positive about in regards to the Fathom....the added output is just a bonus.You will love the f113 then. The sound quality is what hooked me! And the sub just disappears in my system as it did at the in store demo. There is no sense or feel of sub/satellite arangement.

Looks like JL Audio just crashed the party on a love fest with the typical brand subs. These new developments will send a lot of people back to the drawing board. Great news for the consumer!

Here is one post I absolutely agree with. :cool:

Oh, the humanity-"Wife, just one more purchase-let the kids pay for their own weddings" I wish I was so brave. If you don't hear from me, my wife did me in.

I was reading a little deeper in the owner's manual. JL Audio recommends cleaning and caring for the f113 with "Meguiar's NXT Tech Wax" and "Meguiar's Microfiber Detailing cloths".

So for your money not only do you get in-your-face SPL and dynamic detailed sound, you also get that new car smell... A Tim Allen kind of sub. ;)

Can Craig's outdoor numbers of the F113 be compared in anyway to the subs in The Way Down Deep test?

I read the review on JL's web site. Looks like they have a winner on their hands.

But... and a BIG but.... $ 3200 list price. This sub SHOULD perform like it does.
It should also wash your floors, rub your back, and paint your house!! Actually it may remove the paint from your house...

I would love to own one of these and am happy for those who do. But this kind of performance needs to become more affordable before it will ever be more than a
specialty sub.

Price is relative, the F113 seems to be outgunning far more costly units like the Velo. It also seems to provide stronger bass than dual units costing half as much.

You can't ask for much more than that.

You guys all realize that we are talking about performance here that most people
will never approach using. 119db in a living room??? better hope the house was
built solid or its coming down. Not to mention what this will do to your ears (and insides.... ) :eek:


I will use it. Bring it on. I run my dual +/2s at their limits all the time.

-Eli

I agree with new27. It costs a lot, but I think you get what you pay for. This is a hobby(read way of life) for us and therefore I think most of us don't buy what we can't afford. I think if you are going to spend big bucks on this hobby, then start with the speakers and subs. That's my opinion, I could be wrong!

This sub SHOULD perform like it does.
It should also wash your floors, rub your back, and paint your house!! Actually it may remove the paint from your house...

.But see if you get a sub that performs like this you don't care about washing your floors, back rubs, or painting your house. Those things just don't matter anymore :D

I read the review on JL's web site. Looks like they have a winner on their hands.

But... and a BIG but.... $ 3200 list price. This sub SHOULD perform like it does.
It should also wash your floors, rub your back, and paint your house!! Actually it may remove the paint from your house...

I would love to own one of these and am happy for those who do. But this kind of performance needs to become more affordable before it will ever be more than a
specialty sub.


what about a $15000 intreconnect? Complaining about this sub's $$$??? :confused: :confused: :confused:

I read the review on JL's web site. Looks like they have a winner on their hands.

But... and a BIG but.... $ 3200 list price. This sub SHOULD perform like it does.
It should also wash your floors, rub your back, and paint your house!! Actually it may remove the paint from your house...

I would love to own one of these and am happy for those who do. But this kind of performance needs to become more affordable before it will ever be more than a
specialty sub.

A DD18 was $5000 if im not mistaken.. how is this not a good value???

...

like tdeknay said, its better than people spending $3200 on some speaker cables (which of course makes little difference in sound compared to $3200 invested back into your speakers)

street price on the DD-18 is around $3K.

I read the review on JL's web site. Looks like they have a winner on their hands.

But... and a BIG but.... $ 3200 list price. This sub SHOULD perform like it does.
It should also wash your floors, rub your back, and paint your house!! Actually it may remove the paint from your house...

I would love to own one of these and am happy for those who do. But this kind of performance needs to become more affordable before it will ever be more than a
specialty sub.
Seems like a silly statement to me. If you want a $100 subwoofer they exist. This is a Ferrari subwoofer. Why does it need to be "more than a specialty item"? That's why people want it - because it IS a specialty item. That's why high-end high performance products exist. Using your logic, if you want it to be "not be a specialty item" thay I suppose it would need to be about $50 or come packaged with HTIB's as those are about as close as you come to mass market products. Even a $750 sub is a specialty item as far as the mass market goes. It's all relative and just a matter of degrees.

High performance = $$$.........simple math. The Fathom has the high dollar pieces and construction to back up the numbers.

If there was a way to approach this performance for 1/2 the cost, that would still be $1500, roughly, and would still be too much $$$ for most people.

(Easy DIY'rs, be gentle here!)

New numbers for a (presumably) working f112 are up:

http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/speakers/1853/test-bench-jl-audio-fathom-f112-subwoofer.html

Frequency response (at 2 meters)
24 to 101 Hz ±2.5 dB
Bass limits (lowest frequency and maximum SPL with limit of 10% distortion at 2 meters in a large room)
16 Hz at 80 dB SPL
108 dB average SPL from 25 to 62 Hz
114 dB maximum SPL at 62 Hz
bandwidth uniformity 94%

The rating for 25hz was omitted, does 80dB @ 16Hz though, fwiw.

http://members.cox.net/fabulousfrankie/Nousaine.htm

Would be cool to see what he came up with for a 113 for comparative purposes.

High performance = $$$.........simple math. The Fathom has the high dollar pieces and construction to back up the numbers.

If there was a way to approach this performance for 1/2 the cost, that would still be $1500, roughly, and would still be too much $$$ for most people.

(Easy DIY'rs, be gentle here!)
:D

good bait.....I almost bit, till I saw the last sentence ;) Almost got me there...heheh

Seems like a silly statement to me. If you want a $100 subwoofer they exist. This is a Ferrari subwoofer. Why does it need to be "more than a specialty item"? That's why people want it - because it IS a specialty item. That's why high-end high performance products exist. Using your logic, if you want it to be "not be a specialty item" thay I suppose it would need to be about $50 or come packaged with HTIB's as those are about as close as you come to mass market products. Even a $750 sub is a specialty item as far as the mass market goes. It's all relative and just a matter of degrees.

Ok maybe I'm just a little sad that my Ultra/2 isn't king anymore... :(

Looks like JL Audio just crashed the party on a lovefest with the typical brand subs. These new developements will send a lot of people back to the drawing board. Great news for the consumer!


Some people have been saying it for a long time (Sealed, small, long throw, big power), mostly falling on deaf ears ;) . Good to see a manufacturer finally putting it to good use.

Can Craig's outdoor numbers of the F113 be compared in anyway to the subs in The Way Down Deep test?

Unfortunately, we only have 10%(ish) THD limited output numbers at 3 frequencies (16, 20 & 25Hz), and Yates doesn't limit THD. He uses the compression test and records the THD as the compression graphs reach their limit.

The only 10% limited comparo with an SVS 2X12" is Ed's numbers on the Ultra 2, which, as Ilk has pointed out to me, should be within .5-1.0dB of the Plus 2.

Craig's F113 #s: Ed's Ultra 2 #s:
16Hz: 93.7dB 18Hz: 100.7dB
20Hz: 100.2dB 20Hz: 102.8dB
25Hz 109.8dB 25Hz: 106dB

All of Ed's numbers are amp limited, so I would say that the Fathom would have more gas in the tank at less objectionable consequences than the SV subs.

Of course, the size of the Fathom's box, in relation to the driver's capabilities, allow for excursion headroom and big power to be applied where the opposite is true of the bigger ported sub. Nothing new here. Just took JL to realize it and build one (or 3) subs :cool:

Bosso

Unfortunately, we only have 10%(ish) THD limited output numbers at 3 frequencies (16, 20 & 25Hz), and Yates doesn't limit THD. He uses the compression test and records the THD as the compression graphs reach their limit.

The only 10% limited comparo with an SVS 2X12" is Ed's numbers on the Ultra 2, which, as Ilk has pointed out to me, should be within .5-1.0dB of the Plus 2.

Craig's F113 #s: Ed's Ultra 2 #s:
16Hz: 93.7dB 18Hz: 100.7dB
20Hz: 100.2dB 20Hz: 102.8dB
25Hz 109.8dB 25Hz: 106dB

All of Ed's numbers are amp limited, so I would say that the Fathom would have more gas in the tank at less objectionable consequences than the SV subs.

Craig's data wasn't necessarily limited to exactly 10% THD; he described it as "max output". Not sure what that means - presumably the amp electronics limited output (he can clarify to be sure).

Regardless, I have not calculated the THD levels in Craig's screen shots, although this would not be difficult and Craig has the spreadsheet to do this. They do look to be about 10% or less at a quick glance, though.

Don't forget Ilkka's own data on the Plus/2 in the 20 Hz tune with the 12.3 woofers.......

Hz/dB/%THD (Plus/2):

50/111/4
40/112/10
30/108/10
25/105/7
20/101/20

20/99/17 (next lower sweep level)
20/95/9 (next lower sweep level)

Correlates pretty well with the Ultra/2 data above.........

Can Craig's outdoor numbers of the F113 be compared in anyway to the subs in The Way Down Deep test?

Since Keith measured the DD-18 there is some room for correlation, but we have to realize that snapshots of relative output at 3 frequencies is just a peek, not the full picture. It looks like Craig's numbers at 16Hz & 20Hz for the DD-18 generally correlate to Keith's measurements within a dB or two, where the 25Hz measurement has me scratching my head. I doubt the f113 was moving +/-55mm with the low distortion observed, and the DD-18 is delivering a good 3-6dB more than extrapolation from Keith's measurements show. I would take a guess that some acoustic effect might have skewed the output level in the 25Hz measurement. Impossible to say for sure, but the *relative* differences between the two look to be as I might expect, although the 25Hz distortion from the JL & the DD-18 is a little lower than I might have expected at that level, which could also be explained by the high fundamental level. Whenever you have two devices measured at the same location, look more at the differences than the absolutes, and then look to see what does and doesn't correlate. Unforseen variables are common, and often hard to catch until you have time to analyze what is beeing measured.

I'm far from an expert on GD measurements, but seems like Craig's numbers correlate very close to what the DD-18 and the SVS numbers have been, give or take a dB or so.

hope we can see more measurements... :)

And to think I almost bought a Velodyne SPL-1500R for a street price of only $850 cheaper than what I'm getting the JL Audio f113 for! If it outperforms the DD-18 as is suggested, I imagine it really blows away the SPL-1500R (well worth the extra $850, I'm sure) :cool: I am one happy camper! :) I should have mine very soon!!

I doubt the f113 was moving +/-55mm with the low distortion observed,
Damn, that's PR territory... ;)

Damn, that's PR territory... ;)

More like Dream Land for anything conventional. :rolleyes:

Almost nothing moves that far without significant noise or linearity issues.

Seems like an awsome sub. $ 3200 list price. We have seen what the spec's look like. How about some direct comparisons? You could buy 2 of many popular subs for this kind of money. How would it stack up against 2 DD-12'S, 2-Plus 2's, 2-Sunfire signatures, or 2- Ultra 2's? And if you did spend $ 3200 what other subs out there can compete with this monster?

Whenever something this good comes along, I always want to jump on the bandwagon and buy one, or two! But my common sense tells me, I have spent
good money on what I have and it can't just be junk because something else
comes out.

Seems like an awsome sub. $ 3200 list price. We have seen what the spec's look like. How about some direct comparisons? You could buy 2 of many popular subs for this kind of money. How would it stack up against 2 DD-12'S, 2-Plus 2's, 2-Sunfire signatures, or 2- Ultra 2's? And if you did spend $ 3200 what other subs out there can compete with this monster?

Whenever something this good comes along, I always want to jump on the bandwagon and buy one, or two! But my common sense tells me, I have spent
good money on what I have and it can't just be junk because something else
comes out.
Well put,
I'm wondering the same thing, how would the f113 stack up against say
two SVS SB12+'s? Both sealed designs but you'd have two twelve inch drivers versus a single 13" and at a third of the price, or maybe half at street prices.
Interesting comparison don't you think?

dc

Well put,
I'm wondering the same thing, how would the f113 stack up against say
two SVS SB12+'s? Both sealed designs but you'd have two twelve inch drivers versus a single 13" and at a third of the price, or maybe half at street prices.
Interesting comparison don't you think?

dc


Now that is disrespecting an exceptional product. How dare you! :D:D:D I mean not even the DD18 as good! :confused: :confused: :confused: :eek: :eek: :eek:

From what I've read, not to many subs will match it. Plus bass isn't bass.

Jl will sound different from Hsu and hsu sounds different from svs - svs sounds different from nht etc....

Numbers are not everything.

Originally Posted by DreamCatcher
Well put,
I'm wondering the same thing, how would the f113 stack up against say
two SVS SB12+'s? Both sealed designs but you'd have two twelve inch drivers versus a single 13" and at a third of the price, or maybe half at street prices.
Interesting comparison don't you think?I paid a visit to the SVS factory early October to listen to the SVS SB12+. I liked them and would have bought it on the spot but SVS was not ready to ship and I also had to get in line behind the pre-orders. I planed to buy two and mate them with the Velodyne SVS-1. A few days later I went for a demo of the f113.

The SVS SB12+ is a very nice sounding, well built, and good value sub. But, respectfully, IMO compared to the f113, the SB12+ is not even close on all accounts.

Just some food for thought.
While the Svs Sb-12 is great at what it does IIRC it's driver doesn't employ any type of linear motor technology. So having two SB-12's wouldn't necessarily stack up in the sound quality arena but could be capable of producing more output than the Fathom.

but could be capable of producing more output than the Fathom.


Why do people always have to type the svs letters? This is an F113 thread.

So what if your loved brand isn't the greatest? Do svs owners do the same with their other possessions? Cars? dishwashers, phones?????????? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I paid a visit to the SVS factory early October to listen to the SVS SB12+. I liked them and would have bought it on the spot but SVS was not ready to ship and I also had to get in line behind the pre-orders. I planed to buy two and mate them with the Velodyne SVS-1. A few days later I went for a demo of the f113.

The SVS SB12+ is a very nice sounding, well built, and good value sub. But, respectfully, IMO compared to the f113, the SB12+ is not even close on all accounts.
I agree a single SB12+ by itself would not approach f113 territory, but what about two or even three or four. Four would cost less than $2500 with multi purchase discounts. Say one was to stack two in each room corner :eek:

dc

Why do people always have to type the svs letters? This is an F113 thread.

So what if your loved brand isn't the greatest? Do svs owners do the same with their other possessions? Cars? dishwashers, phones?????????? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
A lot of different subs are being compared in this thread, should we not compare the f113 to the DD-18 because other subs can't be mentioned in a JL Audio thread :rolleyes:

dc

A lot of different subs are being compared in this thread, should we not compare the f113 to the DD-18 because other subs can't be mentioned in a JL Audio thread :rolleyes:

dc

it just never ends does it? Comparing the DD18 DD15 ACI Maestro is one thing, but why a mid fi sub? Why not the pb10? How many would you need to beat the JL?

To beat the F113.... your favorite company would have to come up with a woofer that **sounds** at least as good as the JL's 13" woofer. Getting "just more spl" is not hard. But it will still not sound as good. :rolleyes: :confused: :p :mad: :(

I would say go for it DreamCatcher. I don't think two will do it. The SB12+ doesn't play as loud and rolls of much quicker below 20Hz. And four together equals about 70% of one f113's amplifier power. It does not come anywhere close to the sound quality of the f113.

The Velodyne DD-12 and DD-15 were on my short list too. They're not close in sound quality either IMO. I would urge you to listen to the f113 for yourself.

Edit: A PB12-Ultra/2 doesn't hold up... if you have read this thread or the reviews.

Why do people always have to type the svs letters? This is an F113 thread.

So what if your loved brand isn't the greatest? Do svs owners do the same with their other possessions? Cars? dishwashers, phones?????????? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I am wondering why my post of all posts in this thread regarding SVS subs was quoted and criticized :eek: . Here lies a non-SVS owner ( I do own a veodyne) and completely unbiased person in regards to commercial subs stating nothing but the simple facts of physics... Relating Vd to output. Its not rocket science, nor is it putting one brand above another.

While I have no knowledge about the f113 other than what I've read here, I do have several weeks of experience evaluating a pair of SVS SB12+'s. They are phenomenal musical subs. Low frequency music sounds just like it should. They also are very well constructed, beautiful, and quite compact. They do not, however, have a lot of grunt from the low 20's down. In that respect, I doubt that two SB's or even more than two can do what the f113 can do at 20 hz and below.

One disclaimer, however, is that I do not have the SB's corner loaded. I have each of them along side my right and left front towers. Their bottom end could be much stronger if they were placed in the corner. To me, music sounds accurate with the subs along the front wall near the mains.

I'm keeping the SB12+'s for they way they sound with music. I think it would be hard to find many subs that sound much better for music. I'm also, however, keeping my big old 150 lb ported box for HT LFE.

it just never ends does it? Comparing the DD18 DD15 ACI Maestro is one thing, but why a mid fi sub? Why not the pb10? How many would you need to beat the JL?

To beat the F113.... your favorite company would have to come up with a woofer that **sounds** at least as good as the JL's 13" woofer. Getting "just more spl" is not hard. But it will still not sound as good. :rolleyes: :confused: :p :mad: :(
"My favorite company"?
Man you've got issues, don't you :eek:
I've already ordered my JL Audio f113.
I was just posing a question :confused:

dc

I am wondering why my post of all posts in this thread regarding SVS subs was quoted and criticized :eek: . Here lies a non-SVS owner ( I do own a veodyne) and completely unbiased person in regards to commercial subs stating nothing but the simple facts of physics... Relating Vd to output. Its not rocket science, nor is it putting one brand above another.

I was actually gonna post what you did, earlier, but decided against it.

I agree that a pair of SB12s might be able displace more air, but like you said, there are considerable differences between the drivers (including the linear tech in the JL) not to mention the actual enclosure/amp/eq differences.

But two subs is still not the same as one. It is apparent that the JL subs are some of the best choices for single, small subs on the market. Maybe the "only" choice.

I am wondering why my post of all posts in this thread regarding SVS subs was quoted and criticized :eek: . Here lies a non-SVS owner ( I do own a veodyne) and completely unbiased person in regards to commercial subs stating nothing but the simple facts of physics... Relating Vd to output. Its not rocket science, nor is it putting one brand above another.


I do have problems, but they are not related to subs. I didn't single you out, sorry if it came across like that.

Heard the F112 and F113 this past weekend. The subs are exactly what I expected from the JL organization, having done high end car audio for years.

The F113 was seamless in integration, pure, transparent, visceral, and immaculate in execution. The F112 had a similar sound with just slightly less output.

While I haven't heard all subs, these are clearly the reference standard of what I have heard at their price point. If you can step up to that price point, they are a remarkable value for what they do.

I was actually gonna post what you did, earlier, but decided against it.


I am glad that you didn't.

Will, well what can we say? Personally, I thought twice about posting what I did fearing people wouldn't interpret the actual meaning of my post.

I do have problems, but they are not related to subs. I didn't single you out, sorry if it came across like that.

No problem. My purpose in posting that was to give people a more realistic expectation of how 2 Sb-12's would compare to the Fathom.

I am glad that you didn't.

Too late, I just did when I quoted Exocer. ;)

:p

A lot of different subs are being compared in this thread, should we not compare the f113 to the DD-18 because other subs can't be mentioned in a JL Audio thread :rolleyes:

dc


SVS gets worn out here :rolleyes:

I didn't want to hijack this thread and make it another SVS is this or that thread. I just wanted to compare with something that I am familiar with. That may be the reason that alot of this goes back to SVS is because LOTS of people who frequent AVS forum own them. We (or at least I) am very excited about this new sub. It seams awesome! The urges of most of us are to try and have the best we can afford. That means always reviewing and QUESTIONING the new kid on the block.
The outcome of all this will be positive for all involved. JL will sell lots of subs,
Velodyne, SVS, Sunfire, Earthquake, TheaterResearch will all come out with new and better products. So the good news is that if you have the change, you can buy this sub now, if you need a year to save up, you will still be able to buy this sub or I would bet, a couple of others too!

I am expecting new Bass traps and panels tomorrow. I hope that this will be a good improvement for my system. I fret about this and that when I'm trolling this site, but I LOVE IT when I'm in my room, kicked back, watching whatever the latest and greatest movie out is. Which this weekend will be Cars (Yes I have kids)
But hey, on a 70" screen with, oh no I'm gonna say it, my PB12/Ultra-2 handling the bass!!! :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

"Jl will sound different from Hsu and hsu sounds different from svs - svs sounds different from nht etc....

Numbers are not everything"


Are you suggesting that the differences in sonic signature between various subs are to be celebrated much like the subtle differences in high-end speakers? If so, I would disagree. Full-range speakers or monitors have characteristics that define different perspectives...front row in-your-face, balcony gently rolled off...but when it comes to sub bass for the home, there should be no place for slightly fat, somewhat boomy, a little strained, somewhat dynamicly challenged, or any other moderating characteristic. Good bass is good bass...tight, quick, deep, dynamic, and linear over a broad range of sub-bass frequencies. Either the sub sytem has it, or it doesn't. Some systems may have more of it than others, but that does not equate to "different strokes for different folks". The best is the best and everything else is either "almost as good" or something less.

agreed!

I'm now a little curious to know how an F110 might compare to a DD-12. I definitely prefer the smaller size and integrated eq of my DD-12, but...

"Jl will sound different from Hsu and hsu sounds different from svs - svs sounds different from nht etc....

Numbers are not everything"


Are you suggesting that the differences in sonic signature between various subs are to be celebrated much like the subtle differences in high-end speakers? If so, I would disagree. Full-range speakers or monitors have characteristics that define different perspectives...front row in-your-face, balcony gently rolled off...but when it comes to sub bass for the home, there should be no place for slightly fat, somewhat boomy, a little strained, somewhat dynamicly challenged, or any other moderating characteristic. Good bass is good bass...tight, quick, deep, dynamic, and linear over a broad range of sub-bass frequencies. Either the sub sytem has it, or it doesn't. Some systems may have more of it than others, but that does not equate to "different strokes for different folks". The best is the best and everything else is either "almost as good" or something less.

Hi Pete,

While I like the concept you present above, we are still pretty far from anything we might generously call an ideal solution when it comes to subwoofers. Every product/design makes certain compromises in achieving various targets and goals. In no way am I saying that the differences in subwoofers are quite as complex as the quantities contributing to the sound of full range speakers, but we most certainly identify the "fingerprint" of a subwoofer's weaknesses, or lack of them. We should also remember that the harder we push most subwoofers, the more this fingerprint or character comes to light, or sound in this case.

Just cleaned up this thread...

Stay on topic!

Just cleaned up this thread...

Stay on topic!


thank you

A few months ago there was talk about high excursion drivers being prone to higher distortion - if I remember correctly it was Hsu making some fuss about low excursion drivers being better.

How would a single 13" with high excursion have lower distortion & higher output than a dual 12"? Shouldnt it be the other way around - esp for distortion?

I think the argument was that the high excursion drivers were more prone to mechancal failure.

There are some benefits and detriments to both approaches. It does very much boil down to execution of the design, as there are many choices to be made within either approach.

A few months ago there was talk about high excursion drivers being prone to higher distortion -

Uh-huh. "IMD", to be specific.

A few months ago there was talk about high excursion drivers being prone to higher distortion - if I remember correctly it was Hsu making some fuss about low excursion drivers being better.

How would a single 13" with high excursion have lower distortion & higher output than a dual 12"? Shouldnt it be the other way around - esp for distortion?

I think that first, clarification should be made regarding nominal driver sizes vs their actual ability to move air.

As an example, and using manufacturer's numbers of Sd and Xmax:

JL's 13" driver, Sd * Xmax= 5.27 liters of air push capability

Adire's 12" Brahma, Sd * Xmax= 2.49 liters X 2 drivers= 4.98 liters

SVS' drivers probably have similar capacity to the Adire drivers, and the 12" are also a tad more efficient, but the JL sub has a 4-5dB amplifier advantage.

The JL sub design is also one that allows for greater use of driver excursion over a wider bandwidth than the 2X12 ported sub.

Still, it's not enough to overcome the ported sub's advantage around it's tune point, as the available numbers for both clearly show, so no, it doesn't have higher output at lower distortion across the entire bandwidth.

We still don't know what the JL sub does way down deep, because we have no info regarding it's HP/noHP, but we can certainly predict it's advantage above 30Hz, given it's displacement capability and amp advantage edges.

Higher excursion does indeed generate higher non linear distortions. I don't think anyone would argue that point. It also would tend to cause a higher rate of mechanical failure, as a rule. Still, it definitely means higher output as well.

Bosso

A few months ago there was talk about high excursion drivers being prone to higher distortion - if I remember correctly it was Hsu making some fuss about low excursion drivers being better.

How would a single 13" with high excursion have lower distortion & higher output than a dual 12"? Shouldnt it be the other way around - esp for distortion?

Different woofer designs/parameters would be the missing variable to your equation. Some do a better job at allowing massive excursion while keeping the distortion low.

I can buy a 15" woofer at a flea market, but if I compare it to a smaller quality sub using the identical amount of good clean power in the same box design... I should be able to get more max output and lower distortion from the higher quality driver within reason of course.

If the same design on a woofer was used on your comparison in the same box with identical amplification, then I would agree that the dual 12"s should beat a single 13".

The schools of focus concerning good sub design revolve around the driver, enclosure, and amplifier. Its the sum of the parts paint the final picture... not one specifically.

In the end, what matters is the distortion performance of the entire system along with its output capabilities, bandwidth and stability. We could sit here debating different approaches to achieving a good result, but the proof is in the pudding and can be both measured and heard.

I think that first, clarification should be made regarding nominal driver sizes vs their actual ability to move air.

As an example, and using manufacturer's numbers of Sd and Xmax:

JL's 13" driver, Sd * Xmax= 5.27 liters of air push capability

Adire's 12" Brahma, Sd * Xmax= 2.49 liters X 2 drivers= 4.98 liters

SVS' drivers probably have similar capacity to the Adire drivers, and the 12" are also a tad more efficient, but the JL sub has a 4-5dB amplifier advantage.

The JL sub design is also one that allows for greater use of driver excursion over a wider bandwidth than the 2X12 ported sub.


Bosso

The correct number for the JL would be 4.8 liters, not 5.27.

In the end, what matters is the distortion performance of the entire system along with its output capabilities, bandwidth and stability. We could sit here debating different approaches to achieving a good result, but the proof is in the pudding and can be both measured and heard.

Amen.

How about some more of the measured 'puddin'?

Bosso

The correct number for the JL would be 4.8 liters, not 5.27.

Help me out with the math you Charlatan. Oops, I believe that's Charlottean :)

Bosso

Help me out with the math you Charlatan. Oops, I believe that's Charlottean :)

Bosso

:rolleyes:

Sure thing, chief.

JL 13" driver...

68.8mm x 697 (cm^2) = 4.79536 liters

Two 12" Brahmas...

(57 mm x 436 (cm^2) = 2.4852 liters) x 2 = 4.9704 liters

You used the linear excursion when calculating the Vd for the Brahmas, so it is only fair to do the same with the JL. ;)

Still, it's not enough to overcome the ported sub's advantage around it's tune point, as the available numbers for both clearly show, so no, it doesn't have higher output at lower distortion across the entire bandwidth.
Bosso

From Ed's mail it seems like the JL is doing:
100 dB @ 20 Hz @ 2M GP @ <10% THD
110 dB @ 25 Hz @ 2M GP @ <10% THD

From the AVTalk website, the Pb12+2 is doing:

101db at 15% THD
106db at 5%THD

So at the tuning point of the Pb12+2 it is still outgunned by the JL.

What am i missing?

:rolleyes:

Sure thing, chief.

JL 13" driver...

68.8mm x 697 (cm^2) = 4.79536 liters

Two 12" Brahmas...

(57 mm x 436 (cm^2) = 2.4852 liters) x 2 = 4.9704 liters

You used the linear excursion when calculating the Vd for the Brahmas, so it is only fair to do the same with the JL. ;)

Ahhh. You need to re think that Xmax number for the F113 driver.

Bosso

Ahhh. You need to re think that Xmax number for the F113 driver.

Bosso

No, I don't. ;)

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8507564&&#post8507564

From Manville himself:

Linear, peak-to-peak excursion is 2.7 inches for the f113 and 2.4 inches for the f112... so in terms of linear displacement (constant number of VC turns in the gap), the spec is:
290 cu.in (4.75 liters) for the f113
201.6 cu.in (3.3 liters) for the f112

From Ed's mail it seems like the JL is doing:
100 dB @ 20 Hz @ 2M GP @ <10% THD
110 dB @ 25 Hz @ 2M GP @ <10% THD

From the AVTalk website, the Pb12+2 is doing:

101db at 15% THD
106db at 5%THD

So at the tuning point of the Pb12+2 it is still outgunned by the JL.

What am i missing?

You're probably missing the fact that AVTalk doesn't conduct single sine wave 10% THD limited output tests. They conduct sine wave sweep compression tests and simply record the THD at the same time.

As I said earlier, after it was pointed out to me by Ilkka, the closest thing available is Ed's tests of the Ultra/2, which is said to be within .5 to 1dB of the Plus/2 at the frequencies we're talking about.

Here are some of Ed's THD (or amp) limited output numbers at various tune settings:

16 Hz Tune 10% THD Ground Plane 2M:
16 Hz: 92.2 dB
18 Hz: 95.6 dB

Average SPL: 106 dB (101.2 dB Nousaine Method)

20 Hz Tune 10% THD Ground Plane 2M:
16 Hz: 89.5 dB
18 Hz: 100.7 dB (8.4% THD amp limited)
20 Hz: 102.8 dB (9.4% THD amp limited)
22 Hz: 104.9 dB (7.7% THD amp limited)
25 Hz: 106 dB (6.2% THD amp limited)
30 Hz: 109.5 dB (7.9% THD amp limited)
40 Hz: 113.1 dB
50 Hz: 112.2 dB

Average SPL: 108.5 dB (104.8 dB Nousaine Method)

25 Hz Tune 10% THD Ground Plane 2M:
22 Hz: 105 dB (6.2% THD amp limited)
25 Hz: 109.3 dB (6.6% THD amp limited)
30 Hz: 110.4 dB (3.9% THD amp limited)
40 Hz: 117.1 dB
50 Hz: 114.9 dB (7.6% THD amp limited)

So, in 20Hz tune we have 102.8dB. Subtract 1dB and you still have higher output at lower THD.

Also, looking to my original point, if both subwoofers are in the same system and level matched, how would anyone be able to perceive that one of the subs 'plays louder and lower' than the other, when both subs are obviously very close from a GP THD limited output standpoint :confused:

Hey, Will...Ya got me there. I had a larger Xmax number for the said-to be-modded-for-HT 13" driver :p I appreciate the heads up ;)

With this displacement capability info in place, the JL should have a calculable slight edge above 35Hz. All we lack is the 1W/1M numbers for both drivers, but we can guess pretty closely.

As I've said, it would be hard to tell a clear 'plays lower and louder' winner. I believe the difference is in dynamic capability. The JL has more power available for transient peaks and is a better alignment overall when properly executed, which these subs certainly seem to be.

Bosso

Anyone up to cracking open their F113 to show us the goodies inside?

http://home.jlaudio.com/

The glimpse of the amp seems to show it is a hefty little beastie.