The question i have is which one? the F112 or the F113...i had my mind on the F113 but then someone said that maybe the F112 would a better choice, my room is 19x13 with an opening to dinning room and another to a foyer.
I more of a movie fan than music, but if i have a better system maybe i will start to listen to music.
Life was so much simpler before finding AVS...:)

My room is the same exact 19x13 with an opening behind to my right to a dining room and foyer.
I have the F112 and it impacts the room with no sweat.
I should say that I listen nowhere close to reference when watching movies. Somewhere around -12... but it's still loud enough.

Jose.

It was recently mentionrf to me that a second sub made no difference in their room in terms of increased tactical response and output.

Can this be possible? My first thought was maybe the subs weren't configured correctly and one was canceling out the other. Has anyone else been disappointed with adding a second Fathom and not get the results they expected?

Should I keep my expectations low in anticipation of adding a second F113?:confused:

It was recently mentionrf to me that a second sub made no difference in their room in terms of increased tactical response and output.

Can this be possible? My first thought was maybe the subs weren't configured correctly and one was canceling out the other. Has anyone else been disappointed with adding a second Fathom and not get the results they expected?

Should I keep my expectations low in anticipation of adding a second F113?:confused:

For me, such a statement raises a lot of questions. For starters:

What methodology was used to determine the optimal placement?
Were there any measurements taken?
What AVR / AVP does the person have?
Does that particular make/model have proper bass management?
Is Audyssey being used?
If so, which version, and was it implemented properly? Integrating two subs with Audyssey can be a challenge.

Mark

For me, such a statement raises a lot of questions. For starters:

What methodology was used to determine the optimal placement?
Were there any measurements taken?
What AVR / AVP does the person have?
Does that particular make/model have proper bass management?
Is Audyssey being used?
If so, which version, and was it implemented properly? Integrating two subs with Audyssey can be a challenge.

Mark

I don't think it was so much a statement as it was more of a concern. I don't have the details on what they went though to ensure proper configuration. However, I guess my question would be.. with proper calibration, did anyone not get the results they expected when adding a second F113 or are the improvements of a second sub positive across the board?

I have 2 f113s in my HT. I started with one and was quite impressed at how it filled the 24 x 15 space. But, it was near Christmas and my wife asked me what I wanted so I said, "a second f113."

The addition of the second sub did improve the SQ and really pressurizes the room well (it is closed, not open). Was it worth the extra money? I don't know.

was it worth the extra money? I don't know.



liar --- yes it was !!!! :D

was it worth the extra money? I don't know.

hmmmm... that doesn't sound too promising.:(

The addition of the second sub did improve the SQ and really pressurizes the room well (it is closed, not open). Was it worth the extra money? I don't know.

Kansashick,

I am not attempting to be disrespectful, but didn't you answer the question with what you wrote from an optimistic perspective? The second sub, "Improved the SQ," a positive and then you wrote, "It really pressurizes the room well," another positive.

Isn't that part of the equation what a second sub is supposed to do besides possibly balance and create a slightly higher output to provide more headroom?

Adidino, just like real estate... location, location, location of how the 2nd 113 will rock your world.

Arturing, more "range" on the F112 mean it extends higher in the upper bass area above say 85hz (up to 115hz I think). This will be a factor based on what your main L/R speakers happen to be and thier low end range.

If your L/R main speakers play well to say 80hz buy the F113 if your present speakers are small towers, book shelf or on-wall speakers they won't quite as deep so get the F112.

It also depends on what you listen to of course. The above will affect CD, SACD and DVD-Audio more since I think the THX mix standard for LFE is 80 hz so in most movies were the big banging goes on.

I have 2 f113s in my HT. I started with one and was quite impressed at how it filled the 24 x 15 space. But, it was near Christmas and my wife asked me what I wanted so I said, "a second f113."

The addition of the second sub did improve the SQ and really pressurizes the room well (it is closed, not open). Was it worth the extra money? I don't know.
Well the second sub gives you more flexibility to calibrate to your room environment. But then again if you are the only person that's always going to be using the theater room well you can get away with one but if you have more than one or you move different listening position 2+ is better.

Adidino, just like real estate... location, location, location of how the 2nd 113 will rock your world.

Arturing, more "range" on the F112 mean it extends higher in the upper bass area above say 85hz (up to 115hz I think). This will be a factor based on what your main L/R speakers happen to be and thier low end range.

If your L/R main speakers play well to say 80hz buy the F113 if your present speakers are small towers, book shelf or on-wall speakers they won't quite as deep so get the F112.

It also depends on what you listen to of course. The above will affect CD, SACD and DVD-Audio more since I think the THX mix standard for LFE is 80 hz so in most movies were the big banging goes on.


Well to late i just got a F113, it's heavy, it's shinny did i mention HEAVY.
Maybe i made a mistake, and i should have got the F112, i don't want to use big speakers, I'm not sure sure i understand how the range of speakers and subs work, i see the range for my KEf 6000 is - 90Hz - 30kHz, 75Hz - 30kHz (with optional 'Bass Extender' bass enhancing stand)
There's also adjustments for this in my A/V Onkyo 876.

I recently disabled ARO in order to use only Audyssey correction. I pushed in the "Disable" button or whatever it is called.

If I unplug the sub for a period of time, will the calibration stored in there be erased? I would prefer to have the least amount of "circuitry" in between the input and output signals.

Thanks for any input.

Mark

Hi,
I am thinking about getting a used F113 to replace my Klipsch Ultra2 setup I have.
Anybody have any experience with the Klipsch subs versus the JLF113.
My room is 14x22x7 basement sealed room I think one F113 should be enough.......
Any suggestion is apriciated...
Gabor

Well to late i just got a F113, it's heavy, it's shinny did i mention HEAVY.
Maybe i made a mistake, and i should have got the F112, i don't want to use big speakers, I'm not sure sure i understand how the range of speakers and subs work, i see the range for my KEf 6000 is - 90Hz - 30kHz, 75Hz - 30kHz (with optional 'Bass Extender' bass enhancing stand)
There's also adjustments for this in my A/V Onkyo 876.


I'll try and help. Set your KEF at the 90Hz-30kHz range. The less bass your mains have to reproduce the better. Set your Onkyo receiver to the 80 Hz crossover and set the Fathom up per the instructions. Make sure you run the ARO. You'll have the option on the Fathom to use it's crossover or your Onkyo receiver's. The Fathom will more than make up in the lower regions with clean tight and deep bass!

I recently disabled ARO in order to use only Audyssey correction. I pushed in the "Disable" button or whatever it is called.

If I unplug the sub for a period of time, will the calibration stored in there be erased? I would prefer to have the least amount of "circuitry" in between the input and output signals.

Thanks for any input.

Mark

Pressing the "defeat" button completely bypasses the EQ, so it's all you need to do if you don't want the ARO engaged.

I have a question. :D

Are you suppose to perform the ARO before or after calibration with a SPL meter + calibration DVD?

I have a question. :D

Are you suppose to perform the ARO before or after calibration with a SPL meter + calibration DVD?
Before:)

I'll try and help. Set your KEF at the 90Hz-30kHz range. The less bass your mains have to reproduce the better. Set your Onkyo receiver to the 80 Hz crossover and set the Fathom up per the instructions. Make sure you run the ARO. You'll have the option on the Fathom to use it's crossover or your Onkyo receiver's. The Fathom will more than make up in the lower regions with clean tight and deep bass!

Thanks Sharp
So i guess i can set the Onkyo for 80 Hz for the front speakers? and the center should it be the same?
I did run the ARO and then the audyssey, maybe I'm missing something but so far i'm not impressed with the f113, i was expecting the thumping in the chest like i read in these forums, and all i got was a headache, i was watching Armageddon HD from my Dish vip622.

A head heck?

Thanks Sharp
So i guess i can set the Onkyo for 80 Hz for the front speakers? and the center should it be the same?
I did run the ARO and then the audyssey, maybe I'm missing something but so far i'm not impressed with the f113, i was expecting the thumping in the chest like i read in these forums, and all i got was a headache, i was watching Armageddon HD from my Dish vip622. I don't personally have an f113, but it could be a placement or setup issue. Have you calibrated the subwoofer to match your other speakers with a SPL meter + calibration DVD?

Thanks Sharp
So i guess i can set the Onkyo for 80 Hz for the front speakers? and the center should it be the same?
I did run the ARO and then the audyssey, maybe I'm missing something but so far i'm not impressed with the f113, i was expecting the thumping in the chest like i read in these forums, and all i got was a headache, i was watching Armageddon HD from my Dish vip622.

There was a new buyer of an SVS Ultra who had a similar experience until he calibrated manually and then the sub strutted it's stuff. In his situation, he ran the Audyssey program and it killed the sub, indirectly speaking. :D

As Kain suggests maybe try it manually with an SPL meter and see what occurs.

There was a new buyer of an SVS Ultra who had a similar experience until he calibrated manually and then the sub strutted it's stuff. In his situation, he ran the Audyssey program and it killed the sub, indirectly speaking. :D

As Kain suggests maybe try it manually with an SPL meter and see what occurs.

+1

Guessing is just that.........guessing! What frequency did you cross the sub over at?What occurs when you press the "test" button did it sound okay? Where exactly is the sub located? Try setting it up with the ARO( you did see the blinking confirmation light when you set it up)? Then try running it without audyssey and using the SPL meter and tell us what happens? Just remember corners will help reinforce the bass.

Thanks Sharp
So i guess i can set the Onkyo for 80 Hz for the front speakers? and the center should it be the same?
I did run the ARO and then the audyssey, maybe I'm missing something but so far i'm not impressed with the f113, i was expecting the thumping in the chest like i read in these forums, and all i got was a headache, i was watching Armageddon HD from my Dish vip622.


Make sure your sub level on your Onkyo is turned up.

The F113 was not built with the"wow" factor, it just doesn't have it...no matter how you word it; review it; tweak it, it is just not there. It wasn't designed in. What you do get is a rather smooth well balanced sub that disappears between the front mains. That it does well.

For the proverbial chest thumping feel, try the SVS PB13U or even the lesser HSU subs.

Cheers!:):)

The F113 was not built with the"wow" factor, it just doesn't have it...no matter how you word it; review it; tweak it, it is just not there. It wasn't designed in. What you do get is a rather smooth well balanced sub that disappears between the front mains. That it does well.

For the proverbial chest thumping feel, try the SVS PB13U or even the lesser HSU subs.

Cheers!:):)


I have to agree with the disappearing between the front mains statement. I however disagree with the "chest thumping" statement. I've experienced a few of those. Master and Commander and The Darla tank tapping scene from finding Nemo is another example.

2 F113's brought the police to my house during Batman.
And I own the 2 homes next to me, so it was a far away complaint.

Felt like my block walls and double 5/8 (Green Glue) drywalls were going to crumble around me.

We were like Wow! (20x20x8 room)

Now disappear while playing 2 channel music is still undecided.
Lots of watts into my Mcintosh LS 360 might sound better then merging the subs in 2 channel.
Still adjusting it.

2 F113's brought the police to my house during Batman.
And I own the 2 homes next to me, so it was a far away complaint.

Felt like my block walls and double 5/8 (Green Glue) drywalls were going to crumble around me.

We were like Wow! (20x20x8 room)

Now disappear while playing 2 channel music is still undecided.
Lots of watts into my Mcintosh LS 360 might sound better then merging the subs in 2 channel.
Still adjusting it.


Keep playing with your settings you'll hear it when the crossover points are seemless. I stood outside one day and played Cloverfield on my system at "reference level". The walls and front door were vibrating outside. There no way I could endure that inside the room for any significant length of time.:D

+1

Guessing is just that.........guessing! What frequency did you cross the sub over at?What occurs when you press the "test" button did it sound okay? Where exactly is the sub located? Try setting it up with the ARO( you did see the blinking confirmation light when you set it up)? Then try running it without audyssey and using the SPL meter and tell us what happens? Just remember corners will help reinforce the bass.

Sub is on the corner, to the left of the screen about three feet. I did set it up with the ARO and got the confirmation light, and then ran the audyssey.
I don't have an SPL meter, didn't think i was going to need it with the JL.
I guess i was expecting to much by all i was reading here, since i never had a real sub.
I it is beautiful build, i would say second to none.

I don't have an SPL meter, didn't think i was going to need it with the JL.
I guess i was expecting to much by all i was reading here, since i never had a real sub.
I

It doesn't matter how good a sub is.. you should use an SPL to measure output of the sub relative to your mains.

I've send my F113 to JL this afternoon and I definitely miss the thump of my sub,:( also amazed on how well it integrates with my dali's. I guess I had to physically pull the JL right out to fully hear, (or should I say not hear) the hand off from my main to the sub...

I'm quite happy with my sub, and it's the only piece of equipment/speaker I've own over two years in the last ten years..


DJoel

I've send my F113 to JL this afternoon and I definitely miss the thump of my sub,:( also amazed on how well it integrates with my dali's. I guess I had to physically pull the JL right out to fully hear, (or should I say not hear) the hand off from my main to the sub...

I'm quite happy with my sub, and it's the only piece of equipment/speaker I've own over two years in the last ten years..


DJoel
Djoel I'm hoping to keep my pair for quite a few years:)

The F113 was not built with the"wow" factor, it just doesn't have it...no matter how you word it; review it; tweak it, it is just not there. It wasn't designed in. What you do get is a rather smooth well balanced sub that disappears between the front mains. That it does well.

For the proverbial chest thumping feel, try the SVS PB13U or even the lesser HSU subs.

Cheers!:):)

Actually the SVS only has a significant advantage in the very deep bass. Chest thumping bass is in the upper bass, where the JL matches or beats the SVS.

Djoel I'm hoping to keep my pair for quite a few years:)



I would really love another F113 but there are too many things that I want /need before making that jump.
I've had friends over to watch The Dark Knight, and the look on their faces, and body expression tell it all. One is good two would be phenomenal;) Btw my room size is roughly 14' X 18' X 9'

djoel

I would really love another F113 but there are too many things that I want /need before making that jump.
I've had friends over to watch The Dark Knight, and the look on their faces, and body expression tell it all. One is good two would be phenomenal;) Btw my room size is roughly 14' X 18' X 9'

djoel

Our room are close in size and Im running two fathoms 112.The subs have been independentley calibrated by A professional sub calibrator who actually recommends the Fathoms over any sub.:) I agree:D

This is a pic of my setup with my Subs placed by the prof calibrator.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn81/Franin30/IMG_3053.jpg

Our room are close in size and Im running two fathoms 112.The subs have been independentley calibrated by A professional sub calibrator who actually recommends the Fathoms over any sub.:) I agree:D

This is a pic of my setup with my Subs placed by the prof calibrator.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn81/Franin30/IMG_3053.jpg



WOW![tongue a waggling]
Mighty sweet set up, love the Focals too!

Also I'm crazy for silver gear (Denon), its a shame Americans don't fancy such a beautiful color of metal:(

djoel

Our room are close in size and Im running two fathoms 112.The subs have been independentley calibrated by A professional sub calibrator who actually recommends the Fathoms over any sub.:) I agree:D

This is a pic of my setup with my Subs placed by the prof calibrator.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn81/Franin30/IMG_3053.jpg


How big is your screen? Do you know the distance from the ground to the bottom of the screen? Also the distance from the ceiling to the top of the screen?

I am thinking about getting a projector soon and my mirage omdc2 sits very high above the console (total height 38" off the ground).

Tony

It's funny when I got my 113 I noticed it didn’t have as much as a thump as my Velodyne but was defiantly faster smoother and matching my other speakers is seamless. After getting my Vandersteen 5a's tuned I found room had a big base hump that I had gotten use to. The professional tuner had to turn sown the base a little in one range to compensate. When he did that I lost a little of the wow effect in my mains but everything especially the mids and voices where clearer and cleaner and the base was still there just not loading the room as much allowing other sounds to become apparent.

This is the same thing that happened to my 113 they don't "load the room" and burry other sounds. Also by setting my center and surrounds to small, after several test, I always though my center should be set to large after all a 2k, 85lbs center channel with a dedicated 120w tube monoblock should be full range, you would think. I learned the truth is most speakers are really not full range, and die in the base area. Allowing the 113 to handle some of the base made a world of difference voices are much more realistic since the sub is handling the lows. Also my center doesn’t have to work as hard. I also put in a Velodyne svs1 so if I want the wow factor I simply hit the preset and the base hump is back loading the room.

After all this I think people judge subs by how much pressure they put out rather than how they actually perform. Incidentally I auditioned a lot of things and all the guys I know that I respect there ears like the 112 and 113 the best out of all the subs right now on the market.

Our room are close in size and Im running two fathoms 112.The subs have been independentley calibrated by A professional sub calibrator who actually recommends the Fathoms over any sub.:) I agree:D

This is a pic of my setup with my Subs placed by the prof calibrator.

http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn81/Franin30/IMG_3053.jpg

Beautiful setup!!!

Thanks guys for the compliments. But anyway just gives you an idea where the Sub calibrator placed the subs. Again each room is different. Djoel it just gives you an idea on how close ours are in size.

How big is your screen? Do you know the distance from the ground to the bottom of the screen? Also the distance from the ceiling to the top of the screen?

I am thinking about getting a projector soon and my mirage omdc2 sits very high above the console (total height 38" off the ground).

Tony

92 " screen but to be honest the ISF calibrator organised all this.

Keep playing with your settings you'll hear it when the crossover points are seemless. I stood outside one day and played Cloverfield on my system at "reference level". The walls and front door were vibrating outside. There no way I could endure that inside the room for any significant length of time.:D


Sharp,

You have dual f113?

Tony

Would it be okay to have a large center speaker (mirage omd-c2) a few inches above the sub (a small table with the sub below)? I am thinking of getting a screen in the future and the current tv console and center speaker is too high.

Tony

Would it be okay to have a large center speaker (mirage omd-c2) a few inches above the sub (a small table with the sub below)? I am thinking of getting a screen in the future and the current tv console and center speaker is too high.

Tony

Post a picture Tony it will be easier to get an idea.

Sharp,

You have dual f113?

Tony


Yes I have dual F113's and want two more! ;) The system was good with one but adding the second Fathom made the bass response smoother and more evenly distributed throughout the room.


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3123/2890257916_e61f84ec30_b.jpg

Post a picture Tony it will be easier to get an idea.



No pic yet. Just an idea. I am thinking of a small table like with the center speaker on top and the sub below.

Tony

Can somebody confirm that I need to plug the rca (lfe) to the "unbalanced" left or right input?

Thanks,
tony

Yes I have dual F113's and want two more! ;) The system was good with one but adding the second Fathom made the bass response smoother and more evenly distributed throughout the room.


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3123/2890257916_e61f84ec30_b.jpg


Very nice:) Was that a fire place at one time? Love the minimalist look, and the wall color.

Wish I had the space for a dedicate music HT room.

Djoel

Can somebody confirm that I need to plug the rca (lfe) to the "unbalanced" left or right input?

Thanks,
tony



I usually don't like using RCA connectors, but when I have to meaning direct to my AVR I use this y connector with a female end to connect the cable coming from the Receiver out.
It prevents any ground loop hums, well at least that's what I like to believe.
But it should'nt matter if you use left or right, that's mostly for Master and Salve configurations type connection.
You'll be getting a Mono sound out of one sub anyway;)

Djoel

Can somebody confirm that I need to plug the rca (lfe) to the "unbalanced" left or right input?

Thanks,
tony

It doesn't matter both are summed I believe. Try it your self, plug it in the left RCA input and then repeat the track playing again in the right RCA input. There should be no difference in gain.

Very nice:) Was that a fire place at one time? Love the minimalist look, and the wall color.

Wish I had the space for a dedicate music HT room.

Djoel


It was at one time. I had nasty first and second order reflections when listening to 2 channel audio. When I added the cover it immeadiately balanced and focused the soundstage to the point where it eliminated a channel imbalance. Most noticible on vocals. I had to get divorced to get my dedicated room. It was worth every penny spent!:D

It was at one time. I had nasty first and second order reflections when listening to 2 channel audio. When I added the cover it immeadiately balanced and focused the soundstage to the point where it eliminated a channel imbalance. Most noticible on vocals. I had to get divorced to get my dedicated room. It was worth every penny spent!:D




That's why divorce is so expensive:p, but I'm glad things worked out on the audio side I really like that room. just as much as Franin...

Hmm maybe one day, I'm sure it would happen sooner if I get hitch:eek:
And I don't know about that one.

Djoel

Thank you. I have never seen so many JL audio systems ever posted on here!

Just picked the sub up during lunch. No pic yet. I had to run back to work.

Sub is still in the car but parked in garage :).


Tony

Where do you LIVE ???? :)

Where do you LIVE ???? :)



Where does he work would be the next question:D

Djoel

Where does he work would be the next question:D

Djoel

Go West young man :).


tony

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s57/djoeltaveras/PanasonicDPMDB-30028.jpg
As much as I like my sub way in the corner, I get the feeling it would sound better else where. (You guys might not be able to see the f113!)
I was getting some huge humps using my velo sms1, I guess once I get it back I can experiment some more. UMR suggested it there but that day my pre/amp decided to crap out.
I would like to pull out the book shelf away from the sub, which happen to be 9/10" or so. I just think it's getting too much reinforcement from being in the corner.
It was originally next to my sofa, UMR thought I wasn't getting the smooth transition from the sub to main.

Always tweaking aye!

djoel

F113
Denon 3808
Run Audyssey with gain 1/4 from 0 trim still -12 for sub
Crossover front 40
center 60
sur 40
How lower should I lower the gain?
What about other setting?

In the back panel, there is "grounded" or "isolated". By default, it was at "isolated".

What do i choose?

Edit: Nevermind, I found the details from the manual.

tony:rolleyes:

Finally connected the sub. I didn't have time to dial in yet since it got really late. Just set the AVR to 0 db and everything default at the sub level.

Listened to The Eagles :p. The sub blends in well.

Got me some plastic sliders to make it easy to move around.

I think I hurt my back carrying the sub from the van to the house.

Just in case you are looking at the red curtains, it is not my choice:mad:. Next will be a projector screen over it.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d53/tractng/front.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d53/tractng/IMAGE_463.jpg
Tony

Yes I have dual F113's and want two more! ;) The system was good with one but adding the second Fathom made the bass response smoother and more evenly distributed throughout the room.


http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3123/2890257916_e61f84ec30_b.jpg

Very nice sharp1080

Finally connected the sub. I didn't have time to dial in yet since it got really late. Just set the AVR to 0 db and everything default at the sub level.

Listened to The Eagles :p. The sub blends in well.

Got me some plastic sliders to make it easy to move around.

I think I hurt my back carrying the sub from the van to the house.

Just in case you are looking at the red curtains, it is not my choice:mad:. Next will be a projector screen over it.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d53/tractng/front.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d53/tractng/IMAGE_463.jpg
Tony


Very Nice Tony. I would like to ask how does the Subs sound with the Wood Flooring?

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s57/djoeltaveras/PanasonicDPMDB-30028.jpg
As much as I like my sub way in the corner, I get the feeling it would sound better else where. (You guys might not be able to see the f113!)
I was getting some huge humps using my velo sms1, I guess once I get it back I can experiment some more. UMR suggested it there but that day my pre/amp decided to crap out.
I would like to pull out the book shelf away from the sub, which happen to be 9/10" or so. I just think it's getting too much reinforcement from being in the corner.
It was originally next to my sofa, UMR thought I wasn't getting the smooth transition from the sub to main.

Always tweaking aye!

djoel

djoel, yes i can see it mate. if you do move the bookshelf you can always move the swap the main speaker and the Sub around to see how that goes. i was also going to ask how did you find it with the wood flooring? Is that a couch near the right speaker?

You have a good setup mate, I reckon once you move that bookshelf your going to hear a change.

Dressed & undressed :D

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll152/dkimmell/DSC01366.jpg

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll152/dkimmell/DSC01450.jpg

djoel, yes i can see it mate. if you do move the bookshelf you can always move the swap the main speaker and the Sub around to see how that goes. i was also going to ask how did you find it with the wood flooring? Is that a couch near the right speaker?

You have a good setup mate, I reckon once you move that bookshelf your going to hear a change.



Good because I hardly see it my self:) Yeah I got to talk to the owner of those books, I don't read books:o and she might have an issue about me doing that. Beside there are three book shelf that go a cross that side wall, I might not have enough space to do the swap.

The wood flooring are OK, I have area rug, and subdued underneath the Sub and the left, and right speakers.

No it's more like a one person chair.

Thanks
Djoel

Dressed & undressed :D

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll152/dkimmell/DSC01366.jpg

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll152/dkimmell/DSC01450.jpg



Love the Black on Black combo David:)

Djoel

Thanks Daniel!!

The all Piano Black looks expecially cool with the all Silver gear :D

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll152/dkimmell/DSC01153.jpg


http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll152/dkimmell/DSC01150.jpg

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll152/dkimmell/DSC01547.jpg

Yup, that's what I would like to go for but, you know most folks hate silver:(

Very nice, I just can't get tire of looking at the 36.5 and the Transporter:cool:

Djoel

Thanks Daniel!!

The all Piano Black looks expecially cool with the all Silver gear :D

http://i287.photobucket.com/albums/ll152/dkimmell/DSC01153.jpg

what is that ?

It is the Slimdevices Transporter tube modified with a re-built analog stage by Modwright. It is by far the best source I have ever owned and having all of my music at my fingertips is such a liberating experience.

http://www.modwright.com/pdf/TransporterMusicServer.pdf

Very Nice Tony. I would like to ask how does the Subs sound with the Wood Flooring?


I always had wood floor so I cannot compare to carpet. The sub sounds great. I have not calibrated it yet. Since the sub fires forward, I think it would be difficult to hear any differences with wood or carpet floor.

When I had the hsu mbm, the woofer was firing towards the floor (it was about 2 inches away). I hated the sound. It caused a boomy effect with the wood floor.

tony

It is the Slimdevices Transporter tube modified with a re-built analog stage by Modwright. It is by far the best source I have ever owned and having all of my music at my fingertips is such a liberating experience.

http://www.modwright.com/pdf/TransporterMusicServer.pdf


Hey David

I know we're getting off topic being that this a JL audio sub thread sorry for that folks, but the modwright stuff are so exciting piece of gear.
Did you get the power supply for the 36.5? You can direct me to the proper thread if so.:)

Djoel

Tony my man Congrats on the JL, welcome to the club hope you didn't go to work today!:D

Djoel

If you put the level mode to "RE", would adjusting the the Master Level matter?

I didn't have time to play with the settings last night. My understanding is the db is controlled at the AVR if it is set to "RE".


tony

If you put the level mode to "RE", would adjusting the the Master Level matter?

I didn't have time to play with the settings last night. My understanding is the db is controlled at the AVR if it is set to "RE".
tony

This may answer your question. Manuals are great for information.

http://home.jlaudio.com/pdfs/10456.pdf

Level Mode
The two-position Level Mode switch allows you to select between the following modes:

“Reference”
In this mode, the Master Level control knob has no effect on the Fathom’s output level. Use this setting if you will primarily be controlling the subwoofer level via your receiver or preamplifier/processor. For those of us with small children or overenthusiastic teenagers, this mode of operation will prevent direct manipulation of the Master Level.

“Variable”
In this mode, the Master Level control knob determines the output level of the Fathom subwoofer. This mode is also useful when level matching the Fathom subwoofer to a pair of stereo speakers in a two-channel system. Variable level operation is needed for proper A.R.O. calibration.

I always had wood floor so I cannot compare to carpet. The sub sounds great. I have not calibrated it yet. Since the sub fires forward, I think it would be difficult to hear any differences with wood or carpet floor.

When I had the hsu mbm, the woofer was firing towards the floor (it was about 2 inches away). I hated the sound. It caused a boomy effect with the wood floor.

tony

Excellent , im the opposite I've never had wood flooring and I've always wanted to know if there was ever a different charaterisic in sound.

Excellent , im the opposite I've never had wood flooring and I've always wanted to know if there was ever a different charaterisic in sound.
The flooring material will have little impact on bass frequencies. It will have a much larger impact on midrange and high frequencies, where a wood floor will reflect the sound and a carpeted floor will absorb some of it. A wooden floor will sound "bright" in the upper mids and highs. This can give the "perception" of less bass, but that is only because the mids and highs are exaggerated relative to it.

Craig

I always had wood floor so I cannot compare to carpet. The sub sounds great. I have not calibrated it yet. Since the sub fires forward, I think it would be difficult to hear any differences with wood or carpet floor.

When I had the hsu mbm, the woofer was firing towards the floor (it was about 2 inches away). I hated the sound. It caused a boomy effect with the wood floor.

tony
I doubt it was the downfiring position of the driver that was causing the problem. It was more likely a room resonance caused by the location of the MBM relative to the walls and the listening position. A simple change of position, (either of the MBM or the seating), may have improved the boominess.

Craig

The flooring material will have little impact on bass frequencies. It will have a much larger impact on midrange and high frequencies, where a wood floor will reflect the sound and a carpeted floor will absorb some of it. A wooden floor will sound "bright" in the upper mids and highs. This can give the "perception" of less bass, but that is only because the mids and highs are exaggerated relative to it.

Craig

Thanks Craig:)

This may answer your question. Manuals are great for information.

http://home.jlaudio.com/pdfs/10456.pdf


Thanks man. I read the short part of the manual and figure that was the answer:).

tony

Djoel, is your center channel speaker in full contact with the table- as I see it in the photo? If so, you may be "polluting" the sound with resonance.
I was in a similar situation and after I tried some cork material to isolate the speaker I bought a set of mopads from auralex and now I get the true sound as it is meant to be. It is relatively inexpensive and it really works.... Its Just a suggestion, however.

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s57/djoeltaveras/PanasonicDPMDB-30028.jpg
As much as I like my sub way in the corner, I get the feeling it would sound better else where. (You guys might not be able to see the f113!)
I was getting some huge humps using my velo sms1, I guess once I get it back I can experiment some more. UMR suggested it there but that day my pre/amp decided to crap out.
I would like to pull out the book shelf away from the sub, which happen to be 9/10" or so. I just think it's getting too much reinforcement from being in the corner.
It was originally next to my sofa, UMR thought I wasn't getting the smooth transition from the sub to main.

Always tweaking aye!

djoel

Djoel, is your center channel speaker in full contact with the table- as I see it in the photo? If so, you may be "polluting" the sound with resonance.
I was in a similar situation and after I tried some cork material to isolate the speaker I bought a set of mopads from auralex and now I get the true sound as it is meant to be. It is relatively inexpensive and it really works.... Its Just a suggestion, however.




Actually I've have something underneath the center that the folks at my job made for me...It's a combination of different materials, with eel skin on top to beautify purposes.

I took a picture I doubt it the idea can be seen, I'll try the cork as well. please let me know where you got it. :edit I see that you got it from auralex

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s57/djoeltaveras/CaryCADMB500020.jpg

http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s57/djoeltaveras/CaryCADMB500021.jpg


Thank you for the suggestion

Djoel

After following the suggestions for calibration, I am very happy with the result.

After following the suggestions for calibration, I am very happy with the result.

Which post did you follow?

Do most of you trash the JL box?

Tony

Which post did you follow?

Do most of you trash the JL box?

Tony


Break it down, put the them balls in a plastic bag, tie up the wood piece all up with the rest of the cardboard and stick it in your closet.

Or find a friend who has the space.:D Like I did..

Djoel

Which post did you follow?

Do most of you trash the JL box?

Tony

Nope kept both of mine

Nope kept both of mine
Me too! I have all my shipping boxes for all my speakers and components. I never know when I might want to "upgrade"!!! :)

Craig

Me too! I have all my shipping boxes for all my speakers and components. I never know when I might want to "upgrade"!!! :)

Craig

Good idea about the upgrade!!


Tony

I also kept my boxes. Never know when you might need to ship them out.:cool:

I also kept my boxes. Never know when you might need to ship them out.:cool:


Yup, I even have my girl saving her appliance boxes:rolleyes: Not that we should be saving blow drier's packaging but she's beginning to get it..Besides those boxes for my components can be pretty pricey..


djoel

Which post did you follow?

Do most of you trash the JL box?

Tony

I followed this as well decreased the e.f.l to -3. These setting are perfect with my Epos'. I was playing Diana Krall on DTS and it seems like she was in my living room just for me. Wow! Next buy OPPO 83 or Pio 09

"I am not using the ARO on my dual F112's. I just use Audyssey. Audyssey is a multi-point measurement and multi-frequency EQ. It also corrects for time-based problems, (ringing, overhang and long decay times). ARO is a single point, single frequency EQ. It could improve one peak at one listening position. However, it could make other listening positions worse. It may or may not improve the Audyssey EQ; however cascading EQ's, (using both ARO and Audyssey), could cause some phase anomalies. The time it takes for ARO to process the signal, (milliseconds), will delay the signal relative to the mains. This can be corrected somewhat by the "Distance" setting of the subwoofer, but why bother?

My suggestion would be to try Audyssey by itself first. If you're not happy with that, try ARO by itself. If you're still not happy, try ARO + Audyssey, Run ARO first, and then be aware that Audyssey will set the "Distance" of the sub further away that it really is. Do *not* change it back to the actual distance measurement.

Be sure to run Audyssey according to the recommended procedure:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...95421&page=191
This document is updated regularly and is endorsed by Chris Kyriakakis, the Chief Technical Officer and Co-Founder of Audyssey.

BTW, which version of Audyssey do you have?

Craig"

Me too! I have all my shipping boxes for all my speakers and components. I never know when I might want to "upgrade"!!! :)

Craig

Read above and thank you for your suggestion.

Brian

I followed this as well decreased the e.f.l to -3. These setting are perfect with my Epos'. I was playing Diana Krall on DTS and it seems like she was in my living room just for me. Wow! Next buy OPPO 83 or Pio 09

"I am not using the ARO on my dual F112's. I just use Audyssey. Audyssey is a multi-point measurement and multi-frequency EQ. It also corrects for time-based problems, (ringing, overhang and long decay times). ARO is a single point, single frequency EQ. It could improve one peak at one listening position. However, it could make other listening positions worse. It may or may not improve the Audyssey EQ; however cascading EQ's, (using both ARO and Audyssey), could cause some phase anomalies. The time it takes for ARO to process the signal, (milliseconds), will delay the signal relative to the mains. This can be corrected somewhat by the "Distance" setting of the subwoofer, but why bother?

My suggestion would be to try Audyssey by itself first. If you're not happy with that, try ARO by itself. If you're still not happy, try ARO + Audyssey, Run ARO first, and then be aware that Audyssey will set the "Distance" of the sub further away that it really is. Do *not* change it back to the actual distance measurement.

Be sure to run Audyssey according to the recommended procedure:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...95421&page=191
This document is updated regularly and is endorsed by Chris Kyriakakis, the Chief Technical Officer and Co-Founder of Audyssey.

BTW, which version of Audyssey do you have?

Craig"



Fantastic info, these things are constantly updating...I think I made a mistake when I first, or was it my second time running the Audyssey. I changed the distance to the actual location :eek:

I don't recall reading anything about this before, once I get my sub back I'm going to make the suggested tweaks.

Btw I have a Onkyo 806, and a SMS 1 which I really like what it does to the sound in my room.

Thank you

Djoel

Fantastic info, these things are constantly updating...I think I made a mistake when I first, or was it my second time running the Audyssey. I changed the distance to the actual location :eek:

I don't recall reading anything about this before, once I get my sub back I'm going to make the suggested tweaks.

Btw I have a Onkyo 806, and a SMS 1 which I really like what it does to the sound in my room.

Thank you

Djoel
I own an SMS-1 also. It sits in my closet and collects dust. I should probably sell it. I don't use it because Audyssey works extremely well without it.

If you do decide to use it, be aware that the processing in it adds some latency, (time delay) to the subwoofer signal. The "distance" settings will compensate for it, so you should not change them.

Craig

Snip
If you do decide to use it, be aware that the processing in it adds some latency, (time delay) to the subwoofer signal. The "distance" settings will compensate for it, so you should not change them.Craig



Thanks, that explains why Audyssey said my sub was 30 ft away!

I'll do some testing with the sms 1 and without, when I have time.
Is there a way to just shut down the sub section on the Audyssey cycle.
Hmm I guess by simply removing the sub out the processing, or by saying NO to the speaker section should dio the trick.

DJoel

Thanks, that explains why Audyssey said my sub was 30 ft away!

I'll do some testing with the sms 1 and without, when I have time.
Is there a way to just shut down the sub section on the Audyssey cycle.
Hmm I guess by simply removing the sub out the processing, or by saying NO to the speaker section should dio the trick.

DJoel
Setting the subwoofer to "No" or "None" or "Off" will do other things than just turn off the Audyssey processing. First, it will shut the sub off. Then it will re-route the LFE channel to the L/R speakers. It will also route all of the re-directed bass from the channels with crossovers to the L/R speakers. I don't think you want any of those things to happen.

I don't believe there is a way to bypass just the subwoofer processing in Audyssey because it is inter-twined with all the rest of the processing and EQ.

Craig

I followed this as well decreased the e.f.l to -3. These setting are perfect with my Epos'. I was playing Diana Krall on DTS and it seems like she was in my living room just for me. Wow! Next buy OPPO 83 or Pio 09

"I am not using the ARO on my dual F112's. I just use Audyssey. Audyssey is a multi-point measurement and multi-frequency EQ. It also corrects for time-based problems, (ringing, overhang and long decay times). ARO is a single point, single frequency EQ. It could improve one peak at one listening position. However, it could make other listening positions worse. It may or may not improve the Audyssey EQ; however cascading EQ's, (using both ARO and Audyssey), could cause some phase anomalies. The time it takes for ARO to process the signal, (milliseconds), will delay the signal relative to the mains. This can be corrected somewhat by the "Distance" setting of the subwoofer, but why bother?

My suggestion would be to try Audyssey by itself first. If you're not happy with that, try ARO by itself. If you're still not happy, try ARO + Audyssey, Run ARO first, and then be aware that Audyssey will set the "Distance" of the sub further away that it really is. Do *not* change it back to the actual distance measurement.

Be sure to run Audyssey according to the recommended procedure:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...95421&page=191
This document is updated regularly and is endorsed by Chris Kyriakakis, the Chief Technical Officer and Co-Founder of Audyssey.

BTW, which version of Audyssey do you have?

Craig"

Great explanation, Brian. I too am only using Audyssey...no ARO. I tried ARO + Audyssey for around three months, and prefer only Audyssey.

The link is broken, so the OP can follow the one in my signature.

Mark

Great explanation, Brian. I too am only using Audyssey...no ARO. I tried ARO + Audyssey for around three months, and prefer only Audyssey.

The link is broken, so the OP can follow the one in my signature.

Mark

All Craig I had to repeat a few times till I got it right.

Setting the subwoofer to "No" or "None" or "Off" will do other things than just turn off the Audyssey processing. First, it will shut the sub off. Then it will re-route the LFE channel to the L/R speakers. It will also route all of the re-directed bass from the channels with crossovers to the L/R speakers. I don't think you want any of those things to happen.

I don't believe there is a way to bypass just the subwoofer processing in Audyssey because it is inter-twined with all the rest of the processing and EQ.

Craig

Thank you Craig, that's good to know.

Djoel

All Craig...
:)

I had to repeat a few times till I got it right.
So did I... :)

Craig

I followed this as well decreased the e.f.l to -3. These setting are perfect with my Epos'. I was playing Diana Krall on DTS and it seems like she was in my living room just for me. Wow! Next buy OPPO 83 or Pio 09

"I am not using the ARO on my dual F112's. I just use Audyssey. Audyssey is a multi-point measurement and multi-frequency EQ. It also corrects for time-based problems, (ringing, overhang and long decay times). ARO is a single point, single frequency EQ. It could improve one peak at one listening position. However, it could make other listening positions worse. It may or may not improve the Audyssey EQ; however cascading EQ's, (using both ARO and Audyssey), could cause some phase anomalies. The time it takes for ARO to process the signal, (milliseconds), will delay the signal relative to the mains. This can be corrected somewhat by the "Distance" setting of the subwoofer, but why bother?

My suggestion would be to try Audyssey by itself first. If you're not happy with that, try ARO by itself. If you're still not happy, try ARO + Audyssey, Run ARO first, and then be aware that Audyssey will set the "Distance" of the sub further away that it really is. Do *not* change it back to the actual distance measurement.

Be sure to run Audyssey according to the recommended procedure:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...95421&page=191
This document is updated regularly and is endorsed by Chris Kyriakakis, the Chief Technical Officer and Co-Founder of Audyssey.

BTW, which version of Audyssey do you have?

Craig"


Thanks. I will give it a try tomorrow when nobody is home (i have a day off) :).

tony

Some trolling/off topic posts removed. Folks please use the report post feature for further issues such as this and it will be taken care of. Please don't respond though as it just makes it more difficult to remove it all. :)

Thanks all

Some trolling/off topic posts removed. Folks please use the report post feature for further issues such as this and it will be taken care of. Please don't respond though as it just makes it more difficult to remove it all. :)

Thanks all
Will do!

Thanks. I will give it a try tomorrow when nobody is home (i have a day off) :).

tony

report back

Is anyone using an external test disc (like Avia II) to calibrate their F113? Just curious what some of you feel is the best source disc to use for accurate results.

Is anyone using an external test disc (like Avia II) to calibrate their F113? Just curious what some of you feel is the best source disc to use for accurate results.


I always used my processor's test tones set at the recommended 75db setting. I run my sub 3db hotter than my mains. The Radio Shack SPL meter is the device that will let you obtain accuracy(somewhat)!;) Avia has lots of useful stuff on it but you need a baseline first.

OMG! I'm having a very hard time deciding between the PB13-Ultra/PC13-Ultra and the f113. Has anyone here with a f113 heard the PB13-Ultra/PC13-Ultra? What are your impressions? I've heard that the f113 has (slightly?) better sound quality over the Ultra, is this true? My room is quite small, about 15 feet long x 11.5 feet wide x 9.5 feet high. Will I have any problems reaching reference levels in this room with one f113 or PB/PC13-Ultra? By the way, I use my home theater for music/movies with a 50/50 split.

OMG! I'm having a very hard time deciding between the PB13-Ultra/PC13-Ultra and the f113. Has anyone here with a f113 heard the PB13-Ultra/PC13-Ultra? What are your impressions? I've heard that the f113 has (slightly?) better sound quality over the Ultra, is this true? My room is quite small, about 15 feet long x 11.5 feet wide x 9.5 feet high. Will I have any problems reaching reference levels in this room with one f113 or PB/PC13-Ultra? By the way, I use my home theater for music/movies with a 50/50 split.

Both good subs but your best to go and audition them to see which you suits you better.

OMG! I'm having a very hard time deciding between the PB13-Ultra/PC13-Ultra and the f113. Has anyone here with a f113 heard the PB13-Ultra/PC13-Ultra? What are your impressions? I've heard that the f113 has (slightly?) better sound quality over the Ultra, is this true? My room is quite small, about 15 feet long x 11.5 feet wide x 9.5 feet high. Will I have any problems reaching reference levels in this room with one f113 or PB/PC13-Ultra? By the way, I use my home theater for music/movies with a 50/50 split.

I have owned both and my preference is the JL. You can find some of my thoughts earlier in the thread.

Both good subs but your best to go and audition them to see which you suits you better. Problem is I am in Dubai and won't be able to audition them so I must rely on people's comments/opinions. :(

OMG! I'm having a very hard time deciding between the PB13-Ultra/PC13-Ultra and the f113. Has anyone here with a f113 heard the PB13-Ultra/PC13-Ultra? What are your impressions? I've heard that the f113 has (slightly?) better sound quality over the Ultra, is this true? My room is quite small, about 15 feet long x 11.5 feet wide x 9.5 feet high. Will I have any problems reaching reference levels in this room with one f113 or PB/PC13-Ultra? By the way, I use my home theater for music/movies with a 50/50 split.

I guess it depends on your budget. As for the JL slightly better than the PB13, I think it's more than slight.

On small example... I had an opportunity to listen to both the JL and the PB13 and compared the same clip. There is a scene in Batman TDK when he's on top of that building in Hong Kong. If you know the scene I'm talking about, he shoots these gummy explosives with timers on them...

PB13 connected, the effects of the thump when the gummy explosives hit the building sounded as if the building was being hit by giant boulders. With the JL, very natural thump as I would expect it to sound. Both subs were calibrated at the same SPL, same prepro and source player.

I'm assuming the PB13 must be tuned for higher output but it doesn't sound natural to me at all. I think someone may have a hard time blending with their mains based on the example above. Perhaps it's a great sub for 50hz and below but not a sub for me up to 80hz. My opinion anyway.

I guess it depends on your budget. As for the JL slightly better than the PB13, I think it's more than slight.

On small example... I had an opportunity to listen to both the JL and the PB13 and compared the same clip. There is a scene in Batman TDK when he's on top of that building in Hong Kong. If you know the scene I'm talking about, he shoots these gummy explosives with timers on them...

PB13 connected, the effects of the thump when the gummy explosives hit the building sounded as if the building was being hit by giant boulders. With the JL, very natural thump as I would expect it to sound. Both subs were calibrated at the same SPL, same prepro and source player.

I'm assuming the PB13 must be tuned for higher output but it doesn't sound natural to me at all. I think someone may have a hard time blending with their mains based on the example above. Perhaps it's a great sub for 50hz and below but not a sub for me up to 80hz. My opinion anyway. When you say that it sounded like boulders with the PB13-Ultra, do you mean the bass was more ferocious (more impact or slam?) than the f113 or are you talking about the actual sound?

When you say that it sounded like boulders with the PB13-Ultra, do you mean the bass was more ferocious (more impact or slam?) than the f113 or are you talking about the actual sound?

Is was an unnatural boomy effect.. not a tight slam or impact.

Did you compare any other scenes from different movies?

OMG! I'm having a very hard time deciding between the PB13-Ultra/PC13-Ultra and the f113. Has anyone here with a f113 heard the PB13-Ultra/PC13-Ultra? What are your impressions? I've heard that the f113 has (slightly?) better sound quality over the Ultra, is this true? My room is quite small, about 15 feet long x 11.5 feet wide x 9.5 feet high. Will I have any problems reaching reference levels in this room with one f113 or PB/PC13-Ultra? By the way, I use my home theater for music/movies with a 50/50 split.

That's not a "huge" room so the size of the sub may become a factor. The JL is quite a bit smaller physically and may blend in better. If that's not an issue I'd suggest considering the SVS. Before anyone gets bent out of shape, I do have 4 F113s and love them but I think they are both good products in their own way. I wouldn't say that the SVS wasn't musical but the F113 is hard to beat for the last word in musicality. A single SVS does "hit hard". I've heard both and my pals and I did do a comparison test with a few subs including the SVS. It wasn't a blind test or anything but both subs are very good.

report back


Brian-HD,

I ran the ARO per JL instructions. I left the elf trim to "0". Then I run audyssey afterwards. The audyssesy set my subwoofer to -4.5 db. I then adjusted to -1.5 db (so I am running -3db hot??).

I am not sure what version of audyssey I have, but it is the onkyo 805 :).

Next time I will just try the audyssey alone. I just want to make sure all the functions of the sub works. Like you had mentioned, audyssesy put my sub's distance 30ft away which is by 15 ft off :).

tony

Brian-HD,

I ran the ARO per JL instructions. I left the elf trim to "0". Then I run audyssey afterwards. The audyssesy set my subwoofer to -4.5 db. I then adjusted to -1.5 db (so I am running -3db hot??).

I am not sure what version of audyssey I have, but it is the onkyo 805 :).

Next time I will just try the audyssey alone. I just want to make sure all the functions of the sub works. Like you had mentioned, audyssesy put my sub's distance 30ft away which is by 15 ft off :).

tony

FYI. I am using the Denon 3808 with the FPU for Audy. I did not use JL ARO. I think that it is normal for a longer distance for your sub with Audy but I am not sure about twice the actual distance. Talk to Chris in the Audy thread. Let me know your result.

Brian

I have recently purchased a JL Audio Fathom F113 subwoofer and have been having problems with the sub bottoming out.

I am running the unit with the following settings:

Volume/Gain - 50%
Polarity - 0
Phase - 180
Low pass filter - 24db
Low pass frequency - 70
ELF trim - -5

I have the sub running with the ARO engaged.

I have my receiver (Denon) calibrated to 75db and am playing it between well below reference point. (-15)

My problem is with heavy bass around the 20-30hz region. When there is impact, the woofer makes a popping sound (sort of like a knocking noise) when it is in rapid excursions. I had my local distributor (very helpful) have a look at it and he believed it was the amp running out of power and that there was nothing wrong with the sub mechanically.

I tried turning it down and the noise does go away but I lose a lot of the bass impact. I am now in a dilemma as to whether the sub is underpowered for my room.

My room dimensions are:

19.68ft (L)
13ft (W)
No permanent openings. Carpeted floors.
High ceilings of 11.48ft

I would appreciate any help as I am at a loss as to what to do and really like this sub for its overall quality.

Cheers,

Dave.

I have recently purchased a JL Audio Fathom F113 subwoofer and have been having problems with the sub bottoming out.

I am running the unit with the following settings:

Volume/Gain - 50%
Polarity - 0
Phase - 180
Low pass filter - 24db
Low pass frequency - 70
ELF trim - -5

I have the sub running with the ARO engaged.

I have my receiver (Denon) calibrated to 75db and am playing it between well below reference point. (-15)

My problem is with heavy bass around the 20-30hz region. When there is impact, the woofer makes a popping sound (sort of like a knocking noise) when it is in rapid excursions. I had my local distributor (very helpful) have a look at it and he believed it was the amp running out of power and that there was nothing wrong with the sub mechanically.

I tried turning it down and the noise does go away but I lose a lot of the bass impact. I am now in a dilemma as to whether the sub is underpowered for my room.

My room dimensions are:

19.68ft (L)
13ft (W)
No permanent openings. Carpeted floors.
High ceilings of 11.48ft

I would appreciate any help as I am at a loss as to what to do and really like this sub for its overall quality.

Cheers,

Dave.

Sounds like a second F113 is in order to please your listening pleasure.

Sounds like something might be wrong with your sub.
I own couple of F113's, and never had that problem when using only one sub.
I drive them hard with low bass HT.
So hard, that most people say holy s... , turn it down!

(By comparison, my room is 20x20x8)

I have recently purchased a JL Audio Fathom F113 subwoofer and have been having problems with the sub bottoming out.

I am running the unit with the following settings:

Volume/Gain - 50%
Polarity - 0
Phase - 180
Low pass filter - 24db
Low pass frequency - 70
ELF trim - -5

I have the sub running with the ARO engaged.

I have my receiver (Denon) calibrated to 75db and am playing it between well below reference point. (-15)

My problem is with heavy bass around the 20-30hz region. When there is impact, the woofer makes a popping sound (sort of like a knocking noise) when it is in rapid excursions. I had my local distributor (very helpful) have a look at it and he believed it was the amp running out of power and that there was nothing wrong with the sub mechanically.

I tried turning it down and the noise does go away but I lose a lot of the bass impact. I am now in a dilemma as to whether the sub is underpowered for my room.

My room dimensions are:

19.68ft (L)
13ft (W)
No permanent openings. Carpeted floors.
High ceilings of 11.48ft

I would appreciate any help as I am at a loss as to what to do and really like this sub for its overall quality.

Cheers,

Dave.

Definitely sounds like there could be something wrong with your sub. I have one F112 in the same size room but 9' ceilings with an opening in the right leading to a dining area. I listen to around -15 most of the time also and the F112 barely sweats.

Thanks for the reply's everyone.

I too thought it was my sub that was faulty but am being re-assured that it is the sub reaching its limits and that I need multiple subs to get the bass that I want. No budget whatsoever for a 2nd sub at this stage (would love to have one) so looks like I might need to consider other options.:mad:

I tried disengaging the Audyssey in my Denon and the ARO to see if that helps but if I turn the sub up, the noise returns.

Any other ideas?

Dave.

Thanks for the reply's everyone.

I too thought it was my sub that was faulty but am being re-assured that it is the sub reaching its limits and that I need multiple subs to get the bass that I want.
Dave.

That just doesn't sound right. No way your F113 should be doing that, especially at that level(-15) you listen to. Who's reassuring you?

Thanks for the reply's everyone.

I too thought it was my sub that was faulty but am being re-assured that it is the sub reaching its limits and that I need multiple subs to get the bass that I want. No budget whatsoever for a 2nd sub at this stage (would love to have one) so looks like I might need to consider other options.:mad:

I tried disengaging the Audyssey in my Denon and the ARO to see if that helps but if I turn the sub up, the noise returns.

Any other ideas?

Dave.


Call JL. I did noticed the -15.

Definitely sounds like there could be something wrong with your sub. I have one F112 in the same size room but 9' ceilings with an opening in the right leading to a dining area. I listen to around -15 most of the time also and the F112 barely sweats.


Hey Jose what do you're NYC neighbors say about the BOOM:D That is if you live in an apartment..

Djoel

Thanks for the reply's everyone.

I too thought it was my sub that was faulty but am being re-assured that it is the sub reaching its limits and that I need multiple subs to get the bass that I want. No budget whatsoever for a 2nd sub at this stage (would love to have one) so looks like I might need to consider other options.:mad:

I tried disengaging the Audyssey in my Denon and the ARO to see if that helps but if I turn the sub up, the noise returns.

Any other ideas?

Dave.


Try this test; set the sub to variable and increase the gain to MAX and run the demo. Do you still hear the popping noise?

Thanks for the reply's everyone.

I too thought it was my sub that was faulty but am being re-assured that it is the sub reaching its limits and that I need multiple subs to get the bass that I want. No budget whatsoever for a 2nd sub at this stage (would love to have one) so looks like I might need to consider other options.:mad:

I tried disengaging the Audyssey in my Denon and the ARO to see if that helps but if I turn the sub up, the noise returns.

Any other ideas?

Dave.

Does it sound like popping or coffee percolating type of noise?

Hey Jose what do you're NYC neighbors say about the BOOM:D That is if you live in an apartment..

Djoel

I do live in an apartment but the walls are concrete not sheetrock and have carpeting. Besides the fact that I hardly pass -10 on the volume control, my speakers are not on the wall that I share with my neighbor. I also have a corner apt, so no problem on the other side. I watch movies late but as long as I close the windows, I'm fine. I also think it helps that my sub, with spikes, is on a 1.5" thick granite slab.
Who know....maybe my neighbors enjoy it.:D


Jose.

I would not call JL.
Take it back, or have them exchange it. They would rather exchange it with the possibility of a return. Let the Dealer figure it out.

Then you will know for sure, if it was broken, or bottomed out!

I predicted, that there is no way it is working right, or something else is wrong.

Also look at the man. date, on the sub box.
Some dealers use them very hard at the shop or house, and sell them as new. Then send you to JL when a problem pops up.

This is completely off topic, but quick question for all f113 owners. I am a lucky SOB and have two f113's and while doing some placement tweaking today, I noticed that the calibration light on one of the subs is out. The defeat switch still lights up and I can tell that when the defeat switch is off and the calibration is (presumably) engaged, the output is cleaner, but it is a peace-of-mind factor that the light is out. Anyone else have a light out?

Silly questions, but with a spendy big sub, these things need asking :)

On a completely different note, regarding that tweaking....if you have the sub pointing straight ahead, try turning it facing the left or right wall. Holy Crap, it made a difference in my set-up. I have the left one facing the left wall and the right one facing the right wall. It hits harder, faster, and louder. Crazy.

But let me know about the 3 cent light thing, cause it's buggin' me ;)

Try this test; set the sub to variable and increase the gain to MAX and run the demo. Do you still hear the popping noise?

I have the sub already running in variable and have tried reducing the sub level in the receiver and increasing the gain and vice versa. The problem remains unfortunately.

Dave.

I would not call JL.
Take it back, or have them exchange it. They would rather exchange it with the possibility of a return. Let the Dealer figure it out.

Then you will know for sure, if it was broken, or bottomed out!

I predicted, that there is no way it is working right, or something else is wrong.

Also look at the man. date, on the sub box.
Some dealers use them very hard at the shop or house, and sell them as new. Then send you to JL when a problem pops up.

This is basically where I am at I think. Either that or I need to consider other options which would be a shame as I like this sub very much.

I spoke with JL (who have been very helpful) and they think my room needs more subwoofer power. Really not an option given my tight budget.

Dave.

Does it sound like popping or coffee percolating type of noise?

More of a popping sound adidino.

Dave.

Dave
Trading it out, is the right and only move. Then you will understand the F113 and its output, without any questions in the back of your mind.

After that, you add another F113 sub later, or take the JL back, for something else with more output.
But with the output of mine, and what you write, it does not seem consistant.
I think you will be happy with a new F113! If your set up is correct and working with the other devices.

More of a popping sound adidino.

Dave.

Halo..

Couple of things you need to change in your setup;

Since you are using a Denon which should have BM, the output volume and crossover should be handled there. Set the LP Filter to OFF and switch volume to Reference (not variable). Then recalibrate your sub to 75db using the test tone from the Denon and an SPL meter.

Dave
Trading it out, is the right and only move. Then you will understand the F113 and its output, without any questions in the back of your mind.

After that, you add another F113 sub later, or take the JL back, for something else with more output.
But with the output of mine, what you write, does not seem consistant.
I think you will be happy with a new F113! If your set up is correct and working with the other devices.

Unless you do your movie watching in a school gymnasium, it is very difficult to overdrive a 113. I agree. Trade it out, there has to be something wrong. But two of 'em are better ;)

I would not call JL.
Let the Dealer figure it out. Also look at the man. date, on the sub box.
Some dealers use them very hard at the shop or house, and sell them as new.

Respectfully, no dealer of integrity sells anything open box or demo as "new". Our policy is that even if the factory seal has been broken, but the product hasn't so much as left the box, we are required to put a "repack" sticker on it with an explanation of the scenario so the customer will know. Maybe you need to find the good dealer in your area. They're still out there!

Respectfully, no dealer of integrity sells anything open box or demo as "new". !

We both agree then!
"Integrity" being the operative word.

I do live in an apartment but the walls are concrete not sheetrock and have carpeting. Besides the fact that I hardly pass -10 on the volume control, my speakers are not on the wall that I share with my neighbor. I also have a corner apt, so no problem on the other side. I watch movies late but as long as I close the windows, I'm fine. I also think it helps that my sub, with spikes, is on a 1.5" thick granite slab.
Who know....maybe my neighbors enjoy it.:D


Jose.

Sounds allot mine apt. my system is in between the hallway, and the outside of the building.
I also have concrete walls, but I have my rear speakers on them so they don't disturb any one. Got love those pre war buildings.
I do worry about the people down stairs, I have a subdued for the sub, doubt it helps the full impact slam of the F113:D
Hmm I wonder if a slab of granite would help the little old couple down stairs, I'm glad they don't complain they just smile when they see me:confused:

Djoel

Hmm I wonder if a slab of granite would help the little old couple down stairs, I'm glad they don't complain they just smile when they see me:confused:

Djoel

I'm sure it does in my case. My downstairs neighbor is a real old cranky bi***!
She calls and complains when I'm vacuuming after 10pm:D but never when I'm watching a movie.

I'm sure it does in my case. My downstairs neighbor is a real old cranky bi***!
She calls and complains when I'm vacuuming after 10pm:D but never when I'm watching a movie.

Maybe the vibrations from the fathoms turn her on :D

I just received my F113 back from JL Audio facilities, and if I didn't know better I would swear it was a new one. Well as far as the content in the box I haven't inspect the sub it self. No strength to move the sub down to my living room, I haven't had breakfast yet.:o

I have to thanks MSmith, Amy T. and all they wonderful folks at JL who handled my sub.:)


Thanks for the gloves, Manville:D

DJoel

I'm sure it does in my case. My downstairs neighbor is a real old cranky bi***!
She calls and complains when I'm vacuuming after 10pm:D but never when I'm watching a movie.

The reason why is, nobody knows what the sound is, when you watch a movie.
I hear neighbors discussing the deep boom. Earthquake/plane/ ect.

(My mistake was telling a few of my system. I should have stuck to, they have house settling problems. And it looks crooked to me)

Brian-HD,

I ran the ARO per JL instructions. I left the elf trim to "0". Then I run audyssey afterwards. The audyssesy set my subwoofer to -4.5 db. I then adjusted to -1.5 db (so I am running -3db hot??).

I am not sure what version of audyssey I have, but it is the onkyo 805 :).

Next time I will just try the audyssey alone. I just want to make sure all the functions of the sub works. Like you had mentioned, audyssesy put my sub's distance 30ft away which is by 15 ft off :).

tony

Question for some longer term JL owners....

I had an acoustician measure my room once and I know that I have two really bad peaks in my room. About a 15db peak at 20HZ and a 15db peak at 25Hz.

So here is what I did to set up my 113's. I set the ELF setting to -12, since I know I have a bad peak there and the ELF control is specifically for 25Hz AND I did not want to risk that the ARO would attempt to fix the 25Hz issue and not the 20Hz issue, making the ELF control at that point meaningless (since the ARO would have already taken care of that range).

This way, I know that when I run the ARO, it will pick off the 20Hz peak and tame that, effectively getting me two EQ channels (ARO for the 20Hz peak and ELF for the 25Hz peak).

I know the instructions say to leave ELF at 0, but given my room and what it does, what I did seems like the way to go.

Any opinions on that???

Thanks in advance for any input.

I'm pretty sure that the ELF trim does not apply a significant reduction at 25hz even at -12 (at least not with my F112). I remember testing it with REW and it basically tapered off the low bass just slightly.

Right where it belongs, I can't believe how much this sub make everything sound amazing. My mains are full range speakers, that can produce decent amount of bass around 45hz 35hz. But when the f113 is the link, my speakers really shine.
Example while listening to Radio Head In Rainbows House Of Cards sound like a totally different recording with the sub engaged WOW! I guess those days without my sub really made me appreciate it whole lot more , and this is more than two years owning this JL.
Btw the auto sensing works like a charm, as it should.:)

Djoel

I'm pretty sure that the ELF trim does not apply a significant reduction at 25hz even at -12 (at least not with my F112). I remember testing it with REW and it basically tapered off the low bass just slightly.

Do you know something that isn't stated in JL's lit? They state pretty plainly that the E.L.F. control is an up to 12db cut at 25Hz or up to a 3db boost at 25Hz. Thanks.

Right where it belongs, I can't believe how much this sub make everything sound amazing. My mains are full range speakers, that can produce decent amount of bass around 45hz 35hz. But when the f113 is the link, my speakers really shine.
Example while listening to Radio Head In Rainbows House Of Cards sound like a totally different recording with the sub engaged WOW! I guess those days without my sub really made me appreciate it whole lot more , and this is more than two years owning this JL.
Btw the auto sensing works like a charm, as it should.:)

Djoel

One day, I'll integrate my sub with my music listening. Maybe I'm missing something...:o

Maybe the vibrations from the fathoms turn her on :D

GROOOOOOOSSSSSSSSS!!!!:D Well at least someone else enjoys it.

Question for some longer term JL owners....

I had an acoustician measure my room once and I know that I have two really bad peaks in my room. About a 15db peak at 20HZ and a 15db peak at 25Hz.

So here is what I did to set up my 113's. I set the ELF setting to -12, since I know I have a bad peak there and the ELF control is specifically for 25Hz AND I did not want to risk that the ARO would attempt to fix the 25Hz issue and not the 20Hz issue, making the ELF control at that point meaningless (since the ARO would have already taken care of that range).

This way, I know that when I run the ARO, it will pick off the 20Hz peak and tame that, effectively getting me two EQ channels (ARO for the 20Hz peak and ELF for the 25Hz peak).

I know the instructions say to leave ELF at 0, but given my room and what it does, what I did seems like the way to go.

Any opinions on that???

Thanks in advance for any input.


Scott,

Brand new out of the box and this is your first time setup? I'm curious as why you didn't even try running ARO first and listen for removal of the peaks? It's defeatable. Just because you have peaks around those two frequencies doesn't necessarily mean your room will sound terrible? My room node is higher around 40hz. ARO took care of it just fine. In theory it should work. Just to be clear you were hearing these peaks in your system prior to the adjustment?

Scott,

Brand new out of the box and this is your first time setup? I'm curious as why you didn't even try running ARO first and listen for removal of the peaks? It's defeatable. Just because you have peaks around those two frequencies doesn't necessarily mean your room will sound terrible? My room node is higher around 40hz. ARO took care of it just fine. In theory it should work. Just to be clear you were hearing these peaks in your system prior to the adjustment?

I had two Paradigm Servo-15's before and I had a Rane PE-17 5 band parametric EQ set-up by the acoustician I mentioned. That is how I know I have a couple really bad, big peaks. Before the Rane was set-up the bass was tubby and you couldn't really crank it because it just overwhelmed the room. After the EQ went in, I could really turn it up and the tubbiness was gone and there was genuine deep bass that wasn't clouding up everything else as it had before. Using that experience, the process I used seemed logical. Again, my thinking being that if....

20Hz peak is 15db hot...
25Hz peak is 17db hot...

...then the ARO would pick off the 25Hz peak as the bigger peak to tame. That would leave the 20Hz peak still a problem and render the need to do anything with the ELF control useless since the 25Hz band had been addressed with ARO.

...with ELF adjusted to minus 12db, that leaves

20Hz peak of 15db...
25Hz peak of 5db...

Now the ARO picks off the 20Hz peak while the ELF largely addresses the known peak at 25Hz.

Listening to the system with ARO defeated and ELF at 0, it is evident that at least I was on the right track. With no ARO and ELF at 0, tubby and overdone. With ELF at -12db and ARO engaged, tight, tuneful, deep bass that can get very loud without overwhelming my relatively small room (13 x 20).

Make sense?

OK guys, I need a little help with setup. I want to integrate my fathom with my music pre but I have an HT processor in the mix. My music pre has a HT bypass and an extra output.
With HT, I have the Fathom set in "REF" mode with the LP Filter "OFF" letting my HT processor do the bass management, 80 Hz all the way around(simple enough).

According to my music (passive)preamp's manual, I can use it's output for a sub but how is bass management done this way? I've always listened to my speakers in full-range/no sub with music before. My speakers go down to 33hz but I want to hear what this thing can do. Do I have to set the fathom differently for music listening: LP Filter "ON", LP Freq 35hz etc.?

Which input on the Fathom should I use from my pre? I was thinking about using a y splitter. Both output cables into splitter, into mono input(L) of Fathom.

Any thoughts?
Thanks.

Jose - You can use the R input from your pre if you want. Works fine..

As for integrating with your sub, you should set the sub LP filter to ON. Music doesn't really go far below 30hz so setting the lp to 35hz might be too low. Start with 50hz and experiment from there. You'll also need to change the volume to variable and adjust output for the sub to blend well with your mains. Just switch back to REF when use HT

OK guys, I need a little help with setup. I want to integrate my fathom with my music pre but I have an HT processor in the mix. My music pre has a HT bypass and an extra output.
With HT, I have the Fathom set in "REF" mode with the LP Filter "OFF" letting my HT processor do the bass management, 80 Hz all the way around(simple enough).

According to my music (passive)preamp's manual, I can use it's output for a sub but how is bass management done this way? I've always listened to my speakers in full-range/no sub with music before. My speakers go down to 33hz but I want to hear what this thing can do. Do I have to set the fathom differently for music listening: LP Filter "ON", LP Freq 35hz etc.?

Which input on the Fathom should I use from my pre? I was thinking about using a y splitter. Both output cables into splitter, into mono input(L) of Fathom.

Any thoughts?
Thanks.

Do you know something that isn't stated in JL's lit? They state pretty plainly that the E.L.F. control is an up to 12db cut at 25Hz or up to a 3db boost at 25Hz. Thanks.

Hmm, I'll have to check it again. I remember testing it with REW and it only had a small effect. Maybe I need to check it again. :cool:

Listening to the system with ARO defeated and ELF at 0, it is evident that at least I was on the right track. With no ARO and ELF at 0, tubby and overdone. With ELF at -12db and ARO engaged, tight, tuneful, deep bass that can get very loud without overwhelming my relatively small room (13 x 20).

Make sense?


It did the first time.;)

Just switch back to REF when use HT

No other way to avoid that, huh?

No other way to avoid that, huh?

Not really.. it doesn't affect your HT settings when you switch back to ref anyway. You can leave the volume knob on the JL at the setting you desire for music. It will only engage at that volume level when you switch to variable.

Question for some longer term JL owners....

I had an acoustician measure my room once and I know that I have two really bad peaks in my room. About a 15db peak at 20HZ and a 15db peak at 25Hz.

So here is what I did to set up my 113's. I set the ELF setting to -12, since I know I have a bad peak there and the ELF control is specifically for 25Hz AND I did not want to risk that the ARO would attempt to fix the 25Hz issue and not the 20Hz issue, making the ELF control at that point meaningless (since the ARO would have already taken care of that range).

This way, I know that when I run the ARO, it will pick off the 20Hz peak and tame that, effectively getting me two EQ channels (ARO for the 20Hz peak and ELF for the 25Hz peak).

I know the instructions say to leave ELF at 0, but given my room and what it does, what I did seems like the way to go.

Any opinions on that???

Thanks in advance for any input.

I had two Paradigm Servo-15's before and I had a Rane PE-17 5 band parametric EQ set-up by the acoustician I mentioned. That is how I know I have a couple really bad, big peaks. Before the Rane was set-up the bass was tubby and you couldn't really crank it because it just overwhelmed the room. After the EQ went in, I could really turn it up and the tubbiness was gone and there was genuine deep bass that wasn't clouding up everything else as it had before. Using that experience, the process I used seemed logical. Again, my thinking being that if....

20Hz peak is 15db hot...
25Hz peak is 17db hot...

...then the ARO would pick off the 25Hz peak as the bigger peak to tame. That would leave the 20Hz peak still a problem and render the need to do anything with the ELF control useless since the 25Hz band had been addressed with ARO.

...with ELF adjusted to minus 12db, that leaves

20Hz peak of 15db...
25Hz peak of 5db...

Now the ARO picks off the 20Hz peak while the ELF largely addresses the known peak at 25Hz.

Listening to the system with ARO defeated and ELF at 0, it is evident that at least I was on the right track. With no ARO and ELF at 0, tubby and overdone. With ELF at -12db and ARO engaged, tight, tuneful, deep bass that can get very loud without overwhelming my relatively small room (13 x 20).

Make sense?
There is not a lot of content in the 20-25 Hz range. There is almost none in music, (except for pipe organ music), and in movies, the only 20-25 Hz content is in special effects, (explosions, car and train crashes, helicopter blade sounds, etc. If you are hearing a lot of bass that is "tubby and overdone", then the problem is likely higher in frequency than 20 to 25 Hz.

When the acoustician measured the room, did he measure at one specific seating location, or multiple? Was the equalizer setup to optimize one location, or an average of several locations? Has your seating (or your subwoofer location(s), or anything else), changed since he took those measurements?

Do you have one F113, or two? If two, are they placed exactly where the old subs were? If not, then the old measurements are worthless. If you only have one JL sub, then the room response with your old system, (dual subs, placed differently than one JL), will be *completely* different than it is now with one sub. You could have nulls now in those ranges and peaks somewhere else. I would *not* make adjustments to the JL E.L.F trim based on the old measurements. Either get the acoustician back to do new measurements, or run ARO and hope for the best.

For interest, what kind of Bass Management settings are you using? What are your main speakers? Where is your seating within the room, (i.e., are you sitting against a wall? ...out away from the walls? ...in the middle of the room?) Do you have any acoustic treatments, (bass traps), in your room?

Craig

Not really.. it doesn't affect your HT settings when you switch back to ref anyway. You can leave the volume knob on the JL at the setting you desire for music. It will only engage at that volume level when you switch to variable.

It's things like this that I wished that the Fathom came with a remote control. What can I say, I'm just a lazy guy:o.

Can anyone point to a source that explains what the steady state output of the F113 amp is? All I have found is the short term peak output of 2,500 watts.

I would like to know the continuous output of the amp.

Thanks In Advance

One day, I'll integrate my sub with my music listening. Maybe I'm missing something...:o



Maybe I missed read what you're saying, but you have a 2 channel preamp with a Sub out? There aren't many of those around, what the make if you don't mind.

Thanks

Djoel

Maybe I missed read what you're saying, but you have a 2 channel preamp with a Sub out? There aren't many of those around, what the make if you don't mind.

Thanks

Djoel


Djoel,

It's a passive linestage preamp by Placette Audio. It has 2 sets of outputs. Great pre BTW. No crossovers and originally didn't want to switch back and forth between settings in the JL.

I did try 2ch with the JL the last couple of days and after some tweaking, I'm impressed by the fathom. Blends in seamlessly with my Euphonias. Just trying to decide if it's worth it since 75% of my music is jazz and bossa nova. Don't really NEED the chest-thumpin' bass for that:).

Jose.

Djoel,

It's a passive linestage preamp by Placette Audio. It has 2 sets of outputs. Great pre BTW. No crossovers and originally didn't want to switch back and forth between settings in the JL.

I did try 2ch with the JL the last couple of days and after some tweaking, I'm impressed by the fathom. Blends in seamlessly with my Euphonias. Just trying to decide if it's worth it since 75% of my music is jazz and bossa nova. Don't really NEED the chest-thumpin' bass for that:).

Jose.

That sounds very interesting about the linestage, with the two outputs...
Funny thing I was going through some of my old notes here at work when I was ordering an Odyssey from Klaud. Which I requested a sub out for a Candela unit.The thing is I didn't have the foggiest on how I was going to incorporate it in to my TH system at the time. I scratched the Candela at the end, and I just purchased a Belles 28A...I still don't know how I'm going to add the F113:confused:

I like my JL for music listening, and I listen to everything for the exemption of Rap...I got a LP of Kanye West Heart Break and 808 that has lots of bass.
Generally I find music more enjoyable with the JL in the chain, doing it's magic no matter how subtle the lows are.

Djoel

There is not a lot of content in the 20-25 Hz range. There is almost none in music, (except for pipe organ music), and in movies, the only 20-25 Hz content is in special effects, (explosions, car and train crashes, helicopter blade sounds, etc. If you are hearing a lot of bass that is "tubby and overdone", then the problem is likely higher in frequency than 20 to 25 Hz.

When the acoustician measured the room, did he measure at one specific seating location, or multiple? Was the equalizer setup to optimize one location, or an average of several locations? Has your seating (or your subwoofer location(s), or anything else), changed since he took those measurements?

Do you have one F113, or two? If two, are they placed exactly where the old subs were? If not, then the old measurements are worthless. If you only have one JL sub, then the room response with your old system, (dual subs, placed differently than one JL), will be *completely* different than it is now with one sub. You could have nulls now in those ranges and peaks somewhere else. I would *not* make adjustments to the JL E.L.F trim based on the old measurements. Either get the acoustician back to do new measurements, or run ARO and hope for the best.

For interest, what kind of Bass Management settings are you using? What are your main speakers? Where is your seating within the room, (i.e., are you sitting against a wall? ...out away from the walls? ...in the middle of the room?) Do you have any acoustic treatments, (bass traps), in your room?

Craig

Hi Craig,

I have two 113's and they are in the same location as my Servo-15's were. I realize that a lot of music and most content in movies is above 20-25Hz, but unless I am mistaken, ARO is going to pick off the biggest peak it measures, and if it sees a 15-20db peak at 20Hz, I would imagine that is the one it is going to filter. And JL must see some value in adding an attenuation control at 25Hz (with the option for a small amount, 3db, of boost) as that is the only frequency that you can specifically tailor (via ELF). ARO operates in a bit of mystery since you don't know exactly what it has filtered. All I can say is, subjectively, with ARO defeated and ELF at 0, bass is tubby and overdone. With ARO engaged and ELF at -12db, it is not. And in my room and several other set-ups I have been a part of, turning the sub to face the sidewall has allowed it to couple with the room in such a way that both output and articulation are notably better. It's worth trying. You can always turn it back around.

Cheers.............Scott.

All I can say is, subjectively, with ARO defeated and ELF at 0, bass is tubby and overdone. With ARO engaged and ELF at -12db, it is not.
Did you try ARO alone?

Ok guys, I decided to run REW on my Fathom F112 to see exactly what ELF trim does. Here are the results:

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/7314/elf.jpg

These measurements were taken with an AKG Perception mic placed 3 inches from the woofer.

As you can see, the ELF trim produces a gradual decrease in LF output. The biggest change is at 25hz, but it also affects nearly all other frequencies across the subwoofer band even as high as 100hz.

If you have a single large peak at 25hz then ARO should take care of it. If you have two large peaks, one at 20hz and another at 25hz, then I doubt the ELF trim is going to solve the problem at 25hz. You probably need something like an SMS or a BFD.

On my Fathom, I use -3dB for the the ELF trim. I find that provides me with the flattest, linear response down to about 17hz when measured from my couch.

I decided to try putting my front F113s next to my mains. They were originally facing each other on the side walls, front and back. I figure I can experiment with the front pair trying to integrate them with 2 channel in addition to lfe for surround sound duties.

They actually measured better in this position too. It was reasonably easy but time consuming to optimize the phase for all 4 woofers using the front left main speaker as the reference.

It sounds pretty good. I'm just waiting for the latest Anthem ARC software version which adds a little more oomph. The quality is beyond reproach but I had a little more oomph with the previous version of ARC. Rumour has it that the newest version is the best yet. Due any day now.

Here it is:

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk97/The_Bogg/basement335.jpg

http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk97/The_Bogg/basement336.jpg

Right where it belongs, I can't believe how much this sub make everything sound amazing. My mains are full range speakers, that can produce decent amount of bass around 45hz 35hz. But when the f113 is the link, my speakers really shine.
Example while listening to Radio Head In Rainbows House Of Cards sound like a totally different recording with the sub engaged WOW! I guess those days without my sub really made me appreciate it whole lot more , and this is more than two years owning this JL.
Btw the auto sensing works like a charm, as it should.:)

Djoel

So you run your full range mains, Large or small? What do you set your x/over to?
Is this (x/over) for the center and surround speakers that are set to (small)

Thanks

Titus

Can anybody explain what the "phase" setting is for?


I have played with the elf trim and set it at zero for now. I ran ARO and they audyssey. I have my set to "Ref".

Tony

Bogg, looks great!! I am sure the ATC and JL combo is stunning :)

So you run your full range mains, Large or small? What do you set your x/over to?
Is this (x/over) for the center and surround speakers that are set to (small)

Thanks

Titus

Mains small, I believe...need to check, I'm always experimenting.
Center always small.

X-over usually 55- 60 if I recall correctly, but just maybe I might have them on 80 thx style...I'll check once I get home.


Djoel

Bogg, looks great!! I am sure the ATC and JL combo is stunning :)

They do seem to play well together. :)

I just wrote a response on my build thread explaining how I setup my 4 F113s. I thought it might be of interest to the group here who have 1 or more subs as the technique is the same for setting the phase of the sub. It's copied here:

As far as measurements go, some interesting things. The 2 rear subs are on the riser (about 8 inches). They are almost the same distance from the rear wall. If I measure 1 sub at a time using either of the rear ones then they measure remarkably well at the main listening position. The same isn't quite true for the front pair.

When the front pair was setup so that the woofers were facing each other the individual front sub responses were a little ragged but improved when more than 1 sub was measured (as expected).
The response was actually smoother in the current front position compared to the old position. The rear sub positions remain unchanged.

here's how I set them up:

played test tones from my Anthem D2 from 120hz down to 18hz in 3hz increments and measured the front left main speaker and recorded the result. You could probably use test tones from any source but this was most convenient for me.

Then turned on front left sub while playing the same test tones and recorded the result first with the sub alone and then with the left main speaker added. The level of the sub was adjusted to give 75db at 78hz with the 1 sub plus left main speaker playing. I then systematically adjusted the polarity and then the phase in 45 degree increments and mapped the resulting frequency response and chose the smoothest curve. I did the same for the other 3 subs one at a time with the front left main speaker. As you can imagine, it was very time consuming. Would've been much faster with a second person (or an RTA!).

At the end I ran the front main speaker and the four subs, set the level to 75db at 78hz and graphed the result. As expected, the result was a very nice smooth frequency response. Checked the result when I added the front right speaker and then the front centre. This was checked just to make sure there were no cancellations when similar frequencies were being played by more than 1 speaker at the same time as the subs. That's the real reason for using the main speaker as the "standard", otherwise you can get into some unpredictable frequency cancellations despite having the subs in phase with respect to each other.

Hope that's clear.

Why not use REW, it's much faster and just as accurate if not more so?

I must confess I just wasn't patient enough to wait to get REW and the microphone etc... Don't even know if it'll work with my
laptop.
They've just released the latest software for the Anthem ARC room eq system so I'll give it a go tonight or tomorrow and then see where things are at.

Mains small, I believe...need to check, I'm always experimenting.
Center always small.

X-over usually 55- 60 if I recall correctly, but just maybe I might have them on 80 thx style...I'll check once I get home.
Djoel

Thanks!
I currently keep my mains large, for music, and small, for HT.

To my ears, my system sounds better with full range mains, and the other 3 channels set to small, crossed over at 80hz for music only.

Always experimenting too!

Thanks!
I currently keep my mains large, for music, and small, for HT.

To my ears, my system sounds better with full range mains, and the other 3 channels set to small, crossed over at 80hz for music only.

Always experimenting too!


Sorry I just go in, I was Irish today:D but I'll check later in the week...

What type of speakers you have?

Danny boy!:)

Taking delivery of my Fathom 113 today. It is replacing a Martin Logan Descent. I'm excited!

Taking delivery of my Fathom 113 today. It is replacing a Martin Logan Descent. I'm excited!

I look forward to your thoughts. I have heard good things about the ML subs.

I look forward to your thoughts. I have heard good things about the ML subs.

+1 a Friend of mine on this forum has one of those ML SUbs.

+1 a Friend of mine on this forum has one of those ML SUbs.

This thread partially convinced me to "upgrade" from the Descent to the Fathom 113 and may contain some of the info you are seeking.

ML Descent sub vs JL 113 Fathom (http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8143&highlight=JL+Audio+Fathom)

I would love to see JL have the option to connect at both speaker level and LFE simultaniously like the ML can. I LOVE my F-113 but I would be able to use it in 2 channel if it had this option which would be great for me.

This thread partially convinced me to "upgrade" from the Descent to the Fathom 113 and may contain some of the info you are seeking.

ML Descent sub vs JL 113 Fathom (http://www.martinloganowners.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8143&highlight=JL+Audio+Fathom)

I see what you mean. Well I have two of the F112 and damn Im a happy man and you will certainly be happy with a F113.

Please some objective advice....

I have it down to dual F113's with the new AS-EQ1 sub EQ

OR

Quad SVS U13's with 2 AS-EQ1 sub EQ's. ( I think I would need 2 AS-EQ1 sub EQ's because each one can EQ dual subs....or would I just EQ two subs, then unhook it and EQ the other 2.....not really sure how that would work)

I am only interested in Blu ray movies and gaming.....

I am leaning towards the quad Ultra 13's due to the ability to have more headroom and even out the response of my room.

Any thoughts?

Anybody with cats living with subs and speakers?

We just got a kitty that I am afraid will do harm to my toys. I really cannot place the sub's front against the wall do the projector screen taking most of the space (my floor speaker are max out).

I bought the spray but not sure it works :).

Tony

Since the Fathom 113 has been out for several years is there any word on a upgraded or completely new Fathom? Why don't they incorporate the Gotham's driver which is supposed to be better into the Fathom?

Please some objective advice....

I have it down to dual F113's with the new AS-EQ1 sub EQ

OR

Quad SVS U13's with 2 AS-EQ1 sub EQ's. ( I think I would need 2 AS-EQ1 sub EQ's because each one can EQ dual subs....or would I just EQ two subs, then unhook it and EQ the other 2.....not really sure how that would work)

I am only interested in Blu ray movies and gaming.....

I am leaning towards the quad Ultra 13's due to the ability to have more headroom and even out the response of my room.

Any thoughts?

The answer to your question about running quad subs off of one AS-EQ1 has been answered in the AS-EQ1 thread.

My vote would be for quad ultras all the way, as long as you are up to the task of setting them up.

Since the Fathom 113 has been out for several years is there any word on a upgraded or completely new Fathom? Why don't they incorporate the Gotham's driver which is supposed to be better into the Fathom?

No major changes in 2009. Not sure about 2010.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

No major changes in 2009. Not sure about 2010.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Any minor changes?:D

Any minor changes?:D

hehe... none that I'm aware of, although there are continual little updates here and there that the engineers and production guys initiate.

Hello,

We just got a cat and I am a little concern about the scratches to the grill. I am thinking of just turning the sub around and have it face the wall to the side (maybe 3-4 inches off the wall).

Would the sound be fine? When I had the hsu ho, it was facing the wall.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d53/tractng/screen2.jpg

Right now, the sub faces forward (left side).

tnt

Hello,

We just got a cat and I am a little concern about the scratches to the grill. I am thinking of just turning the sub around and have it face the wall to the side (maybe 3-4 inches off the wall).

Would the sound be fine? When I had the hsu ho, it was facing the wall.

Hi tractng, I have a couple of thoughts. First, you dropped the coin to get a very fine subwoofer, and it would be a shame not to place it with performance in mind first.

I would just risk the scratches to the grille. You can always order a replacement grill. I ordered one for a previous center speaker, because during the first month of use with the new sub, my F113 knocked it off! :eek: (yeah, much more securely placed afterwards, + rubber feet. . . ). That grill was only $20 or so for a msrp 1k speaker. Call JL just to price it. That way, no worries, buy a new grille (if you even ever have to), before you might sell it or something. JMO.

Second, would you consider moving up the screen a foot, or less? Then you can use an identical speaker to your mains for the ideal front stage. I can say with 100% certainty this is what I would do in your shoes. As it is, I cannot, because my screen is enormous.

Cheers.

Anybody with cats living with subs and speakers?

We just got a kitty that I am afraid will do harm to my toys. I really cannot place the sub's front against the wall do the projector screen taking most of the space (my floor speaker are max out).

I bought the spray but not sure it works :).

Tony

Is it we or your S/O got a"kitty"? :D Throw the spray away. Here's what you should try and it should work. I've suggested this before over on the Martin Logan forum also when the speaker owner there had a similar problem. Don't change your subwoofer position. You are defeating the purpose of buying such a great subwoofer. Go out immeadiately and get a couple of scratching posts, the type with the rope wrapped around the middle of them. They will last longer than just the carpet lined ones, and the Cats get a good surface to claw into.

Place the scratching post next to the item in question. Here's the difficult part to accomplish you have to "catch" them scratching the post and not the grille. If they scratch at the grill the water bottle sprayer works good and is a safe deterrent. If you notice the Cat scrathing on the post then immeadiately reward them with a snack treat.They will begin to understand that it's good to scratch the post and not the speaker. Once accomplished (be patient) SLOWLY move the scratching post away from your system and the Cat should follow. The two sided sticky tape works well also. Good luck.

Hi tractng, I have a couple of thoughts. First, you dropped the coin to get a very fine subwoofer, and it would be a shame not to place it with performance in mind first.

I would just risk the scratches to the grille. You can always order a replacement grill. I ordered one for a previous center speaker, because during the first month of use with the new sub, my F113 knocked it off! :eek: (yeah, much more securely placed afterwards, + rubber feet. . . ). That grill was only $20 or so for a msrp 1k speaker. Call JL just to price it. That way, no worries, buy a new grille (if you even ever have to), before you might sell it or something. JMO.

Second, would you consider moving up the screen a foot, or less? Then you can use an identical speaker to your mains for the ideal front stage. I can say with 100% certainty this is what I would do in your shoes. As it is, I cannot, because my screen is enormous.

Cheers.

Good advice on just leaving the sub in its current postion. Right now the bottom of the frame is 35" inch from the floor and it is already considered high (it is only a 92" screen).

I can move the front mains closer, probably about 5 inches. As of now the mirage omd-c2 (center channel) sounds good. Too costly to match mains.

From the grill to the actual subwoofer, it is a few inches a way (it must due to he excursion not hitting)? I have to check tonight-don't want any long nails to go through the holes of the grills and get caught with the woofer.



Sharp,

I already bought the post but left it in the kitchen. I tried the spray but it doesn't do any good. I was thinking of buying two fake dogs (toy size) and leave it next to the speakers and sub :).

Ofcourse the cat was not my decision :(

tony

Sharp,

I already bought the post but left it in the kitchen. I tried the spray but it doesn't do any good. I was thinking of buying two fake dogs (toy size) and leave it next to the speakers and sub :).

Ofcourse the cat was not my decision :(

tony

The Cat hasn't actually scratched anything yet right? In the OP you are just anticipating that the Cat will try something? Try the scratching posts with rope wrapped around the middle. I've seen them work first hand! I have a fabric couch in the Den and the Cat leaves it alone due to the texture and proximity of the post. If the Cat starts to scratch try my previuos suggestion then buy the dogs! I have had my Cat going on 6 years now. The only thing she does is like to sneek in the room and lay on top of the equipment.:D Never has touched my speaker grilles.

I can't believe my luck but my replacement F113 is defective. I just replaced 1 of the 4 F113s on Christmas because it was making funny rattling noises at lowish volumes. They gave me a brand new one. It measures fine when I calibrated it at 75db at 78hz,
with a smooth extended response as expected.
I had been fiddling around with phase and level matching etc... and use the ARC eq in my Anthem D2. It wasn't quite giving me the impact I had expected. I had blamed the implementation of the ARC latest version figuring it wasn't taking advantage of my firepower.
Well I was playing around with WOTW and that makes the woofers dance like crazy...except for the replacement one. Instead of 3 inch excursions it looked like it was doing 1 inch excursions. I rechecked the calibration and it was calibrated the same as the other 3. I turned off all speakers and subs except for the replacement one and then noticed the "coffee percolating" noise coming from the woofer, and it wasn't being played all that loudly. If I turned the MV up on the woofer in variable mode it just didn't get any louder (turning it down did turn it down so I know the knob works). I tried feeding it a different input from the other woofer. I tried the other input on the woofer. Same thing.

I've been very patient and a fanboy but I've gotta say I'm losing my patience. My wife is gonna freak when she finds out I have to send back another of these expensive woofers. Not a happy camper right now. JL should be replacing all my F113s with F212s or something...I'm still craving bass and it shouldn't be that way with 4 of these F113s.

How does the sub perform in demo mode? That should give some idea if that sub is defective.

I can't believe my luck but my replacement F113 is defective. I just replaced 1 of the 4 F113s on Christmas because it was making funny rattling noises at lowish volumes. They gave me a brand new one. It measures fine when I calibrated it at 75db at 78hz,
with a smooth extended response as expected.
I had been fiddling around with phase and level matching etc... and use the ARC eq in my Anthem D2. It wasn't quite giving me the impact I had expected. I had blamed the implementation of the ARC latest version figuring it wasn't taking advantage of my firepower.
Well I was playing around with WOTW and that makes the woofers dance like crazy...except for the replacement one. Instead of 3 inch excursions it looked like it was doing 1 inch excursions. I rechecked the calibration and it was calibrated the same as the other 3. I turned off all speakers and subs except for the replacement one and then noticed the "coffee percolating" noise coming from the woofer, and it wasn't being played all that loudly. If I turned the MV up on the woofer in variable mode it just didn't get any louder (turning it down did turn it down so I know the knob works). I tried feeding it a different input from the other woofer. I tried the other input on the woofer. Same thing.

I've been very patient and a fanboy but I've gotta say I'm losing my patience. My wife is gonna freak when she finds out I have to send back another of these expensive woofers. Not a happy camper right now. JL should be replacing all my F113s with F212s or something...I'm still craving bass and it shouldn't be that way with 4 of these F113s.

How does the sub perform in demo mode? That should give some idea if that sub is defective.

Something sounds badly wrong in the low frequencies when you turn it up in demo mode. The higher frequencies in the sweep sound okay. I actually didn't realize the variable volume control affects the demo volume until now. At low volumes there's no distortion but as soon as you turn it up a little in the demo mode it starts making unusual sounds. One of my 4 subs has a higher gain setting than the others so it's demo mode can actually play quite loud!

Since the Fathom 113 has been out for several years is there any word on a upgraded or completely new Fathom? Why don't they incorporate the Gotham's driver which is supposed to be better into the Fathom?

Several years?

Something sounds badly wrong in the low frequencies when you turn it up in demo mode. The higher frequencies in the sweep sound okay. I actually didn't realize the variable volume control affects the demo volume until now. At low volumes there's no distortion but as soon as you turn it up a little in the demo mode it starts making unusual sounds. One of my 4 subs has a higher gain setting than the others so it's demo mode can actually play quite loud!

If demo mode plays fine with the others (at the same volume) then it must be a bad sub. :(

I can't believe my luck but my replacement F113 is defective. I just replaced 1 of the 4 F113s on Christmas because it was making funny rattling noises at lowish volumes. They gave me a brand new one. It measures fine when I calibrated it at 75db at 78hz,
with a smooth extended response as expected.
I had been fiddling around with phase and level matching etc... and use the ARC eq in my Anthem D2. It wasn't quite giving me the impact I had expected. I had blamed the implementation of the ARC latest version figuring it wasn't taking advantage of my firepower.
Well I was playing around with WOTW and that makes the woofers dance like crazy...except for the replacement one. Instead of 3 inch excursions it looked like it was doing 1 inch excursions. I rechecked the calibration and it was calibrated the same as the other 3. I turned off all speakers and subs except for the replacement one and then noticed the "coffee percolating" noise coming from the woofer, and it wasn't being played all that loudly. If I turned the MV up on the woofer in variable mode it just didn't get any louder (turning it down did turn it down so I know the knob works). I tried feeding it a different input from the other woofer. I tried the other input on the woofer. Same thing.

I've been very patient and a fanboy but I've gotta say I'm losing my patience. My wife is gonna freak when she finds out I have to send back another of these expensive woofers. Not a happy camper right now. JL should be replacing all my F113s with F212s or something...I'm still craving bass and it shouldn't be that way with 4 of these F113s.

That really sucks Asher ... JL needs to do right by you and my guess is they will.

Something sounds badly wrong in the low frequencies when you turn it up in demo mode. The higher frequencies in the sweep sound okay. I actually didn't realize the variable volume control affects the demo volume until now. At low volumes there's no distortion but as soon as you turn it up a little in the demo mode it starts making unusual sounds. One of my 4 subs has a higher gain setting than the others so it's demo mode can actually play quite loud!

Understand your frustration,...have you spoken with JL or Mr. Smith,...at least see what they will do first.
You wouldn't believe the number of campaigns the first year '06 Lexus IS350 has,...and this is Lexus!

By all means let them have it if they don't satisfy your problem to your statisfaction.

Good luck.

I don't doubt they'll come through. I spoke with Dave at Gemsen who told me to contact Ward at JL again. Ward decided to speak to someone "higher up" because he agreed that having a broken replacement sub is "unacceptable". I'm not sure what they'll do for me beyond replacing it. I hope they'll at least deliver and pick up, Dave didn't seem all that keen on doing it even though he's only 15 minutes away. Just waiting to hear back from JL now....

That really sucks Asher ... JL needs to do right by you and my guess is they will.

I am craving more bass too. I have a single 113 and had a friends 113 over for 2 weeks while I played with it. Yes there was an improvement in bass and shake but to my ears on a percentage scale it was adding about 10%. The single sounds fine, the duals sound better but anyone with brains would say it is not worth the money for the second one. I may go ahead and buy the second one and call it a day. The good thing is at the moment I cant get to my theater because it is up 15 steps and I just had low back surgery. The Gotham is out of my price range. :D

I am craving more bass too. I have a single 113 and had a friends 113 over for 2 weeks while I played with it. Yes there was an improvement in bass and shake but to my ears on a percentage scale it was adding about 10%. The single sounds fine, the duals sound better but anyone with brains would say it is not worth the money for the second one. I may go ahead and buy the second one and call it a day. The good thing is at the moment I cant get to my theater because it is up 15 steps and I just had low back surgery. The Gotham is out of my price range. :D


That's not the path I took when buying my second.:D If you don't spend it on a second Fathom you'll eventually spend it somewhere else on something that still hasn't improved the bass response in your room.;)

I am craving more bass too. I have a single 113 and had a friends 113 over for 2 weeks while I played with it. Yes there was an improvement in bass and shake but to my ears on a percentage scale it was adding about 10%. The single sounds fine, the duals sound better but anyone with brains would say it is not worth the money for the second one. I may go ahead and buy the second one and call it a day. The good thing is at the moment I cant get to my theater because it is up 15 steps and I just had low back surgery. The Gotham is out of my price range. :D

Having two subs in a room is more easier to calibrate to the room than just one.

Supernova subwoofer from Earthquake just got a fantastic review. It actually scored more points on SPL than any other subwoofer. In fact, the distortion and noise was lower than half of the JL subs
Take a look at this review

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/subwo...subwoofer.html

All distortion measurements were made within an 80 kHz bandwidth.

At 20 Hz and 100 dB output, THD+N was a little less than 6%, which is terrific performance.



At 40 Hz, distortion dropped to about 2%. Again, this is very good performance.

Supernova subwoofer from Earthquake just got a fantastic review. It actually scored more points on SPL than any other subwoofer. In fact, the distortion and noise was lower than half of the JL subs
Take a look at this review

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/subwo...subwoofer.html

All distortion measurements were made within an 80 kHz bandwidth.

At 20 Hz and 100 dB output, THD+N was a little less than 6%, which is terrific performance.



At 40 Hz, distortion dropped to about 2%. Again, this is very good performance.

Good for them you can start a new thread for that sub.

Strange noise just started coming from my HT. A high pitched tone accompanied by an occaisonal thump. I went down to the cave and it was the JL. Since the sub is on a dedicated power conditioner and we have had no power outages, I have no idea what is going on.

Any ideas? I hate the idea of packing this sucker up and sending it back. :mad:

I've read that the F112 is very similar to the F113 at 25Hz and up. I am mainly interested in (1) HT and (2) saving money. If I chose 2 or even 3 F112's would that help address the low frequency issues or will that only smooth out the frequency response across the room?

Good advice on just leaving the sub in its current postion. Right now the bottom of the frame is 35" inch from the floor and it is already considered high (it is only a 92" screen).

I can move the front mains closer, probably about 5 inches. As of now the mirage omd-c2 (center channel) sounds good. Too costly to match mains.

From the grill to the actual subwoofer, it is a few inches a way (it must due to he excursion not hitting)? I have to check tonight-don't want any long nails to go through the holes of the grills and get caught with the woofer.



Sharp,

I already bought the post but left it in the kitchen. I tried the spray but it doesn't do any good. I was thinking of buying two fake dogs (toy size) and leave it next to the speakers and sub :).

Ofcourse the cat was not my decision :(

tony

I have a solution that is a bit more expensive, but less time consuming, and better for of all of your belongings... Get them declawed!

I would not have any animal or human living in my house that destroys anything. :D

Hello,

I have relocated my audio setup the last two weeks and last night, I managed to rerun the speaker cable, etc to the new rack. When I was about to connect the rca to the sub it produced a loud "humming" sound. The other end of the rca was not connected to the AVR (and later tried connecting to it with the AVR off). Still the humming sound.

Two things changed from my last setup.

I ran a new rca cable under the raised foundation and the sub didn't connect to the APC power conditioner like before.

I then push the sub across the room and placed it by the rack and run the power through the APC and the humming went away.


Anyway to correct this? I can run a power cord under the foundaton and connect it to the APC or maybe buy a nicer power surge? I tried a cheap power surge and the problem didn't go away.


I noticed the back of the sub, i had it "grounded" instead of "isolate".

Edit: As soon as I connected the rca, the humming begins (doesn't matter the other end is connected or not).

Tnt

I've read that the F112 is very similar to the F113 at 25Hz and up. I am mainly interested in (1) HT and (2) saving money. If I chose 2 or even 3 F112's would that help address the low frequency issues or will that only smooth out the frequency response across the room?
I have dual F112's. The F112 has just one cycle less LF extension than the F113, (19 Hz vs 18 Hz.) It has less total output than the F113 by about 3 dB.
Using 2 F112's should give you as much or more total output and the same 19 Hz LF extension. If you co-locate them, you should see about 3 dB more output than the F113. If you place them separately, you'll see about the same output as an F113, but smoother FR across more seats.

Neither of these subs is a true "bottom-dweller". Their big claim to fame is their sound quality. If you're looking for 10 Hz extension, the JL subs will not get you what you're after. However, if 20 Hz is all you're really looking for, (and 99.999% of HT is 20 Hz and above), then the JL's will fill the bill exceptionally well.

Craig

Funny thing I have 2 113 and people raved about them I replaced a velodyne that had slighly boomer low end, I put in some buttkickers in the couch and tuned them so you barly notice them and people rave about the base, they don't even know the butt kickers are there till I tell them and you are not going to get low end shaking like that out of any speaker. Really complments the system. I am not trying to sell but kickers here but it does add if you are having issues really moving things in the room. I love it when people tell me they can really "feel" the base.

I would not have any animal or human living in my house that destroys anything. :D


That makes two of us! :D The OP just wants an immeadiate solution which aint going to happen when you introduce pets(especially his S/O's and not even his Cat) with a room full of equipment.;)

Hello,



I noticed the back of the sub, i had it "grounded" instead of "isolate".

Edit: As soon as I connected the rca, the humming begins (doesn't matter the other end is connected or not).

Tnt

Did you "flip the switch" on the back to listen and determine if the hum disappears. You are dealing with the dreaded ground loop. If the flip of the switch doesn't work just start carefully unplugging your RCA connections until the hum disappears. You will find the component in question. In my system it was my projector on the ceiling causing the hum eliminated by floating the ground.
Also don't take this wrong but RTFM! They have a section addressing the ground and isolate function.;)

Did you "flip the switch" on the back to listen and determine if the hum disappears. You are dealing with the dreaded ground loop. If the flip of the switch doesn't work just start carefully unplugging your RCA connections until the hum disappears. You will find the component in question. In my system it was my projector on the ceiling causing the hum eliminated by floating the ground.
Also don't take this wrong but RTFM! They have a section addressing the ground and isolate function.;)

I did read it, just making sure :). I did add the projector which I forgot to mention. I haven't tried the isolate setting yet.

Eventhough, my sub is sitting 20ft way using a different wall outlet and the rca coxial is not even closed to the rack, once I plugged in the rca, it hums.:p


Tony

Anyone have any thoughts on dual F212's or quad F113's. Thanks.

I am deciding what subs to buy for my living room/HT System. I really like the style and of the Fathom 112 and 113 and also its reputation for tight bass, but I worry that one Fathom (or even 2 or 3) wont do the job for HT at the low frequencies. I've never had a sub close to the Fathom's quality so whatever I get should be an improvement, but I only want to do this once.

Would it be advisable to get one PB13-Ultra and 2 Fathoms, have the 2 fathoms act as stereo subs with a low pass of 20Hz, and get the PB13 to act as the LFE sub? What I don't want to do is buy 3 Fathom's and still think I am missing sub output for HT. I suggest the Ultra because it has the nice Piano black finish and the size is less than certain other monster subs. One Ultra is as large as I can take in my room, and all things being equal sound-wise, I'd rather see a Fathom than an Ultra sitting in the room.

Thanks

I am deciding what subs to buy for my living room/HT System. I really like the style and of the Fathom 112 and 113 and also its reputation for tight bass, but I worry that one Fathom (or even 2 or 3) wont do the job for HT at the low frequencies. I've never had a sub close to the Fathom's quality so whatever I get should be an improvement, but I only want to do this once.

Would it be advisable to get one PB13-Ultra and 2 Fathoms, have the 2 fathoms act as stereo subs with a low pass of 20Hz, and get the PB13 to act as the LFE sub? What I don't want to do is buy 3 Fathom's and still think I am missing sub output for HT. I suggest the Ultra because it has the nice Piano black finish and the size is less than certain other monster subs. One Ultra is as large as I can take in my room, and all things being equal sound-wise, I'd rather see a Fathom than an Ultra sitting in the room.

Thanks

What room size? I have a f113 in a 13x20 and it does a nice job :).

tnt

I am deciding what subs to buy for my living room/HT System. I really like the style and of the Fathom 112 and 113 and also its reputation for tight bass, but I worry that one Fathom (or even 2 or 3) wont do the job for HT at the low frequencies. I've never had a sub close to the Fathom's quality so whatever I get should be an improvement, but I only want to do this once.

Would it be advisable to get one PB13-Ultra and 2 Fathoms, have the 2 fathoms act as stereo subs with a low pass of 20Hz, and get the PB13 to act as the LFE sub? What I don't want to do is buy 3 Fathom's and still think I am missing sub output for HT. I suggest the Ultra because it has the nice Piano black finish and the size is less than certain other monster subs. One Ultra is as large as I can take in my room, and all things being equal sound-wise, I'd rather see a Fathom than an Ultra sitting in the room.

Thanks
One Ultra13 as an LFE sub with dual F112's as stereo subs would be an awesome system. However, the Fathoms don't have speaker level connections. You would need to send them a "line level" signal.

You would need to somehow "Y" your preamp outs for the L/R channels, and run one side of the "Y" to the subs, then the other side of the 'Y" to the L/R power amps. You would then set the L/R speakers to "Large" to ensure they received the bass from the L/R channels. Of course, this would also send a "Full Range" signal to the L/R power amps, and hence to the L/R speakers. If your speakers are no capable of receiving a full range signal, you could add f-mods to the lines and filter out the lowest bass.

The other way to do it is the "Geddes Method" described in this thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1124011
He uses one sub for the lowest frequencies and two subs for the mid-upper bass. However, he sends all three subs the same signal, (the
"Subwoofer Out" signal.) Then he uses low pass and high pass filters to filter the signals sent to them. It's a complicated system, but according the Dr. Geddes, it's very effective.

Good luck.

Craig

Did you "flip the switch" on the back to listen and determine if the hum disappears. You are dealing with the dreaded ground loop. If the flip of the switch doesn't work just start carefully unplugging your RCA connections until the hum disappears. You will find the component in question. In my system it was my projector on the ceiling causing the hum eliminated by floating the ground.
Also don't take this wrong but RTFM! They have a section addressing the ground and isolate function.;)


Yes the flip switch worked last nighth. To correct what I said from the original post, the setting was on "isolated" and not grounded. Once I placed it in "grounded", it workded fine. :).


tnt

Hi all,

Are any of you looking at The AS-EQ1 SubEQ by Audyssey? it doesn't have balanced inputs but looks quite promising and works with most Subs. Im still in deciding mode if I want to get it to go with my fathoms.

Would like your opinions.. dual F113's, room is 12x20x8. Comments and suggestions are welcome. :)

http://wabrxq.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pBXALHQ3QTd2zTcQ8oSdvAahFBDisptPEfG65E-6Snzv-I4WW4JVn66T3lCjmXOCIRq0cgcX2g4vefjb0jSXxvpjNhI9KjC4S/normal.jpg

I have two F113's and was have noticed some rattling on Kung Fu Panda. Has this been the norm for most of you guys. Everything is calibrated to 75 dbs through my Denon pre/pro and the volume on the JL's is at the 10 o'clock position. It's not a horrible noise but I watch all movies at either -10 or -8 on the volume and at this level the subs don't really sound good. To me they just sound like they are struggling and can't take it.

Would like your opinions.. dual F113's, room is 12x20x8. Comments and suggestions are welcome. :)

http://wabrxq.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pBXALHQ3QTd2zTcQ8oSdvAahFBDisptPEfG65E-6Snzv-I4WW4JVn66T3lCjmXOCIRq0cgcX2g4vefjb0jSXxvpjNhI9KjC4S/normal.jpg
Congratulations! That's very impressive response at one listening position!

However, I'm really surprised by the massive cuts in the ULF range. You must have incredible room gain in the ULF's. Still, I would shoot for a gently rising curve (the so-called "house curve"), in the ULF's to compensate for human hearing deficiencies in this range, (provided you have the amp power to do so.)

Can you post measurements at other listening positions? These will also tell the tale about the total in-room response.

Where are the subs positioned? Where was the measurement taken? Is the room well-sealed? Do you have Bass Traps? Are you using any other external EQ, such as Audyssey, YPAO, MCACC, etc?

Craig

Edit: Most importantly, how does it *sound* to you?

I have two F113's and was have noticed some rattling on Kung Fu Panda. Has this been the norm for most of you guys. Everything is calibrated to 75 dbs through my Denon pre/pro and the volume on the JL's is at the 10 o'clock position. It's not a horrible noise but I watch all movies at either -10 or -8 on the volume and at this level the subs don't really sound good. To me they just sound like they are struggling and can't take it.

What's your sub level in your avp?

What's your sub level in your avp?

Subs are at -5.0

Subs are at -5.0

Mine are set just above that symbol where the volume begins and set at 0.0 on the avp. Kung fu panda great but still in your situation it should be able to handle it.

I have two F113's and was have noticed some rattling on Kung Fu Panda. Has this been the norm for most of you guys. Everything is calibrated to 75 dbs through my Denon pre/pro and the volume on the JL's is at the 10 o'clock position. It's not a horrible noise but I watch all movies at either -10 or -8 on the volume and at this level the subs don't really sound good. To me they just sound like they are struggling and can't take it.
It sounds like you are hitting the limiters in the subs. How big is your room? How far away are the subs from the listening position? Is the LP in the middle of the room? Are the subs co-located or separated?

Thanks Craig! I was hoping for a response from you :)

I do have massive room gain from about 35hz and below. I actually had to reduce the 25hz elf trim to -12db on the JL not including an additional cut in this range using the sms1. It was the only way to achieve a flat response. Both subs are upfront between the left and right mains (left and right of the center channel speaker).

I can slowly increase the elf trim on the JL to bring the ULF back up. Any suggestion on DB level relative to the range from 40hz and up?

Congratulations! That's very impressive response at one listening position!

However, I'm really surprised by the massive cuts in the ULF range. You must have incredible room gain in the ULF's. Still, I would shoot for a gently rising curve (the so-called "house curve"), in the ULF's to compensate for human hearing deficiencies in this range, (provided you have the amp power to do so.)

Can you post measurements at other listening positions? These will also tell the tale about the total in-room response.

Where are the subs positioned? Where was the measurement taken? Is the room well-sealed? Do you have Bass Traps? Are you using any other external EQ, such as Audyssey, YPAO, MCACC, etc?

Craig

Edit: Most importantly, how does it *sound* to you?

craig john;16199063]
Can you post measurements at other listening positions? These will also tell the tale about the total in-room response.

Response is pretty close at the three front listening positions. Haven't measured from the back three seats since they are hardly used but I will do it today as I'm curious now. :)

Where was the measurement taken? Is the room well-sealed? Do you have Bass Traps? Are you using any other external EQ, such as Audyssey, YPAO, MCACC, etc?

That measurement was taken from my seat. About 11 ft from the front wall, center chair.

No corner traps but I'm using OC705 on the side walls every 28 inches or so.


Most importantly, how does it *sound* to you?

To be honest a bit flat. No pun intended.. :) I really don't get much feeling from the sub. Perhaps the house curve in the ULF region makes the most sense. Not sure why the general consensus here is to achieve a flat response as it takes away the excitement of some movies.

I decided to place my order in for the The AS-EQ1 SubEQ by Audyssey. Going to give it a go and see how well it preforms with the Fathoms.

I do have massive room gain from about 35hz and below. I actually had to reduce the 25hz elf trim to -12db on the JL not including an additional cut in this range using the sms1. It was the only way to achieve a flat response.
Did you see the previous post by xcjago with measurements of the elf trim feature? They showed that the elf trim is basically an overall volume control, NOT a 25 Hz specific filter, or even a narrow band filter.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=736243&page=164
Post #4916
It basically covers the entire bandwidth of the sub. I would set it to "0", and use the volume control on the SMS to adjust levels.

Both subs are upfront between the left and right mains (left and right of the center channel speaker).
Can you move them to the corners? How about side walls placements? Something doesn't seem right with that much ULF room gain. I would try to find some placements where you don't need to cut the subs so much. With 12 dB of cut, you have reduced the initial soundwave power generated by the drivers by about 87%. No wonder it sounds "flat". Consider this: Let's say it takes 64 watts to produce 80 dB @ 20 Hz at your listening position. It takes double the power to increase the level 3 dB. Lets' see what it takes to get a 12 dB increase:

80 dB = 64 watts
83 dB = 128 watts
86 dB = 256 watts
89 dB = 512 watts
92 dB = 1024 watts

To go from 80 dB to 92 dB (a 12 dB increase), at 20 Hz means you need to go from 64 watts of power to 1,024 watts of power! (Obviously, these are theoretical numbers and are for illustrative purposes only. The actual power required in your room will vary depending on the size of the room and the listening/measurement position.)

Nonetheless, the same happens in reverse as you lower the levels. You taken away so much power at the ULF's that, even though the room adds it back, it still "sounds" anemic. That's because all the reflected sound is late in "time" and reduced in level.

I can slowly increase the elf trim on the JL to bring the ULF back up. Any suggestion on DB level relative to the range from 40hz and up?
As above, I would avoid the elf trim control. I would use the filters in the SMS-1. BTW, Have you run ARO? I would try running ARO, all by itself and see what that does. Put the SMS in "bypass" mode and just use it as a measuring device.

. Response is pretty close at the three front listening positions. Haven't measured from the back three seats since they are hardly used but I will do it today as I'm curious now. :)

That measurement was taken from my seat. About 11 ft from the front wall, center chair.
Take about 8 measurements around the primary listening position to get a good idea of the overall response.

No corner traps but I'm using OC705 on the side walls every 28 inches or so.
OC705 works great from about 200 Hz up, (depending on thickness.) However, it will do nothing at bass frequencies unless it's at least 6" thick and placed in the corners. Even then, it's only effective to about 80 Hz.

To be honest a bit flat. No pun intended.. :) I really don't get much feeling from the sub. Perhaps the house curve makes in the ULF region makes the most sense. Not sure why the general consensus here is to achieve a flat response as it takes the excitement of some movies.
I think the thing that's taking the excitement out of your system is those deep cuts in the ULF's.

Before you start using the SMS as an EQ, use it as a measuring device to optimize the placement of your subs. The SMS is the perfect tool for this. With the "real time" nature of it's OSD, it allows you to very quickly look at various placements and see what the response looks like. You want placements that don't require so much cut of the ULF. EQ should be used as a "last resort" after the system has been optimized for placement and listening position. In general, with an EQ, it's best to try to limit the "cuts" to 6 dB, and the "boosts" to 3 dB. See if you can find placements of your sub that allow you to do that.

When using it to "measure" the subs for placement, I would shut the main speakers off and just measure the subs. The you don't need to look at the interaction of the mains with the subs at the crossover point. Optimize their position independent of the mains. Then, when you add the mains back in, you can use the phase control in the SMS-1 to optimize the crossover.

Also, the other downside you need to be aware of with the SMS is that it adds some "latency" to the subwoofer signal. It takes some "time" to process the signal. It digitizes it, then EQ's it, then DA converts it again. That processing adds a couple of milliseconds to the subwoofer signal, delaying it in time relative to the speakers. This will significantly affect the response at and around the crossover point. If your receiver/pre/pro has a "distance" setting, make sure it is set a few feet further away than the subs are physically positioned. This will account for the additional delay of the signal by the SMS.

Craig

Craig,

Thanks for all the advice. I assumed moving the subs closer to the corner of the room increase room gain? My sub placement is limited to the front stage as the room is only about 12ft wide so I don't have too many options on the side walls. :(

I'll try moving the subs around as much as possible. How do I set the SMS to bypass mode? If I'm not mistaken, is that preset 6 on the SMS1?

Craig,

Thanks for all the advice. I assumed moving the subs closer to the corner of the room increase room gain?
Moving them closer to the corners will excite the room modes more actively, and *possibly* more evenly.

My sub placement is limited to the front stage as the room is only about 12ft wide so I don't have too many options on the side walls. :(
Try as many places as you can. Is your listening position adjustable?

I'll try moving the subs around as much as possible. How do I set the SMS to bypass mode? If I'm not mistaken, is that preset 6 on the SMS1?
Yes, it's preset #6. It's actually called "EQ Defeat", not "Bypass". Sorry, I took my SMS out of my system over a year ago when I got my Onkyo 885 pre/pro with Audyssey MultEQ XT, and I forgot the exact terminology.

Craig

It sounds like you are hitting the limiters in the subs. How big is your room? How far away are the subs from the listening position? Is the LP in the middle of the room? Are the subs co-located or separated?


I don't think I'm hitting the limiters, but maybe I am I don't know.

The room is 14w x 25L x 8h.

I have one sub on each side of the center along the front wall.

The LP is 16 feet from the front wall so roughly 14 feet from the front of each sub.

I really don't know how to describe the noise. I don't think I am bottoming the subs out or anything. I have no hard mechanical noises or anything. The best way I can describe it is a flapping noise, as though it's just out of control.

I am using my Denon AVP-A1HDCI pre/pro for bass management, so each sub has the switch set to Reference. I use the built in Audyssey to get the distance settings, but do not use the Audyssey for any EQing. Audyssey has the subs set at 13.6 feet and the volume at -5.0 for each sub.

Maybe I'm crazy and the "Skidoosh" scene just has the noise this way. I find the rest of the bass in the movie to be pretty awesome, but I get nervous when the "Skidoosh" scene is up and I cut the master volume back from -10 to -18 or so.

I don't think I'm hitting the limiters, but maybe I am I don't know.

I really don't know how to describe the noise. I don't think I am bottoming the subs out or anything. I have no hard mechanical noises or anything. The best way I can describe it is a flapping noise, as though it's just out of control.
That's what it sounds like when the limiters kick in. They're not mechanical limiters, their electrical.

The room is 14w x 25L x 8h.

I have one sub on each side of the center along the front wall.

The LP is 16 feet from the front wall so roughly 14 feet from the front of each sub.
You're only getting loading from the wall/floor corner. Try moving the subs all the way into the corners. You should pick up 3 to 6 dB. (Be sure to re-run Audyssey afterwords.) OTHOH, if your subs are currently placed close enough to be co-located, you will get mutual coupling and you may not gain anything by corner loading them, unless you move both of them into the same corner.

I am using my Denon AVP-A1HDCI pre/pro for bass management, so each sub has the switch set to Reference.
Are you using two of the subwoofer outputs of your Denon pre/pro to drive the subs independently? If so, the pre/pro could be setting their levels separately. This could cause one sub's gain to be set higher than the other. The sub with the higher gain setting will "hit the limits" before the other. You're basically wasting some output in the lower set sub. Try running a "Master/Slave" setup, (run one cable from the pre/pro to the Master, then another (balanced) cable to the Slave. Then tell your pre/pro you only have one sub. This will "gain-match" the two subs, ensuring you are able to full advantage of the maximum output of both subs. (Rest assured, both subs will still be getting the exact same signal they were getting before; it will now just be at the exact same level.)

I use the built in Audyssey to get the distance settings, but do not use the Audyssey for any EQing. Audyssey has the subs set at 13.6 feet and the volume at -5.0 for each sub.
Why don't you use Audyssey EQ? You might find this quote interesting, (from the OP of the "Official Denon AVP-A1HDCI thread):
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16015504&highlight=audyssey+subwoofer#post16015504
Post #10914

If you're not using the EQ, then it makes even more sense to use the Master/Slave setup. Having said that, I would still use Master/Slave even if using Audyssey.

Maybe I'm crazy and the "Skidoosh" scene just has the noise this way. I find the rest of the bass in the movie to be pretty awesome, but I get nervous when the "Skidoosh" scene is up and I cut the master volume back from -10 to -18 or so.
I've never seen that movie, but that scene is supposed to have some pretty good bass. There are other scenes that will test the max output/extension capabilities of your subs; Pulse, Cloverfield, etc. Optimizing your subs' capabilities will get you a little closer to realizing them.

Craig

I just ordered a second Fathom 113 and will be running them master/slave. I am searching for the right XLR interconnect.

Can someone quickly confirm that this would use a standard male to female XLR interconnect? (Based on the pictures in the manual, it looks like it....but I'm not certain.)

Also, I usually get Audioquest cables, but am thinking about just getting a monoprice cable for this application. That should do....right?

I don't doubt they'll come through. I spoke with Dave at Gemsen who told me to contact Ward at JL again. Ward decided to speak to someone "higher up" because he agreed that having a broken replacement sub is "unacceptable". I'm not sure what they'll do for me beyond replacing it. I hope they'll at least deliver and pick up, Dave didn't seem all that keen on doing it even though he's only 15 minutes away. Just waiting to hear back from JL now....

Just a follow-up on my situation: Waited to hear back from someone at JL. No call back for a week so I called and just kept on getting the voicemail. Left message but no callback. Waited a few days and then left message on someone else's voicemail. No response for a couple of days and then I got a call back from Dave Singh at Gemsen in Canada. Never got a call back from the "higher ups" at JL or even the same guy I talked to. They must've just given Dave the go ahead to replace the sub. I guess I should just be happy it's being replaced but I expected a little more since it was a defective replacement sub. It's a pita to take out one of the kids seats so I can fold the seat down in my wife's RDX and take the sub in. I had hoped they would just come to my place and swap out the sub since it's only 15 mins from Gemsen but it doesn't look like that's gonna happen.

At the end of the day, I spent 14k CDN on subs and am at least getting a replacement. It makes me question the value of buying from a dealer. I could've called the dealer but I'm much closer to Gemsen than they are and I don't know if it's reasonable to expect the dealer to come and pick up the sub and replace it.

let's just hope the replacement for the replacement isn't defective.

Glad you are getting a replacement but JL should have returned your calls:(. I hope this resolves your problem and you can get back to enjoying that great system you put together.

Just a follow-up on my situation: Waited to hear back from someone at JL. No call back for a week so I called and just kept on getting the voicemail. Left message but no callback. Waited a few days and then left message on someone else's voicemail. No response for a couple of days and then I got a call back from Dave Singh at Gemsen in Canada. Never got a call back from the "higher ups" at JL or even the same guy I talked to. They must've just given Dave the go ahead to replace the sub. I guess I should just be happy it's being replaced but I expected a little more since it was a defective replacement sub. It's a pita to take out one of the kids seats so I can fold the seat down in my wife's RDX and take the sub in. I had hoped they would just come to my place and swap out the sub since it's only 15 mins from Gemsen but it doesn't look like that's gonna happen.

At the end of the day, I spent 14k CDN on subs and am at least getting a replacement. It makes me question the value of buying from a dealer. I could've called the dealer but I'm much closer to Gemsen than they are and I don't know if it's reasonable to expect the dealer to come and pick up the sub and replace it.

let's just hope the replacement for the replacement isn't defective.

I just ordered a second Fathom 113 and will be running them master/slave. I am searching for the right XLR interconnect.

Can someone quickly confirm that this would use a standard male to female XLR interconnect? (Based on the pictures in the manual, it looks like it....but I'm not certain.)

Also, I usually get Audioquest cables, but am thinking about just getting a monoprice cable for this application. That should do....right?


Yes it's a standard XLR connection.Try running it both master/slave and individually. I ended up changing to individual RCA connections although the master/slave combo worked just as well.You'll may have to experiment with the Isolate/ground switch on the rear of the sub if you have excessive hum. I now use Monoprice for video cables and Signal for audio cables. I've been happy with both. I've used at one time or another Cardas,Nordost,Synergystic research, and Transparent in my previous systems.

Just a follow-up on my situation: Waited to hear back from someone at JL. No call back for a week so I called and just kept on getting the voicemail. Left message but no callback. Waited a few days and then left message on someone else's voicemail. No response for a couple of days and then I got a call back from Dave Singh at Gemsen in Canada. Never got a call back from the "higher ups" at JL or even the same guy I talked to. They must've just given Dave the go ahead to replace the sub. I guess I should just be happy it's being replaced but I expected a little more since it was a defective replacement sub. It's a pita to take out one of the kids seats so I can fold the seat down in my wife's RDX and take the sub in. I had hoped they would just come to my place and swap out the sub since it's only 15 mins from Gemsen but it doesn't look like that's gonna happen.

At the end of the day, I spent 14k CDN on subs and am at least getting a replacement. It makes me question the value of buying from a dealer. I could've called the dealer but I'm much closer to Gemsen than they are and I don't know if it's reasonable to expect the dealer to come and pick up the sub and replace it.

let's just hope the replacement for the replacement isn't defective.

I apologize for the lack of a prompt callback. This week has been quite hectic but we should still have replied sooner. Please e-mail me <myusername>@jlaudio.com if you need any assistance, or call me at 954-443-1100.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Did you see the previous post by xcjago with measurements of the elf trim feature? They showed that the elf trim is basically an overall volume control, NOT a 25 Hz specific filter, or even a narrow band filter.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=736243&page=164
Post #4916
It basically covers the entire bandwidth of the sub. I would set it to "0", and use the volume control on the SMS to adjust levels.

Craig

The e.l.f. trim is NOT a volume control, but rather a response "tilt" control with maximum effect at 25 Hz... its filter shape is very good at compensating for room bloat... (better than a narrow band filter would be, IMO).

The e.l.f. trim is NOT a volume control, but rather a response "tilt" control with maximum effect at 25 Hz... its filter shape is very good at compensating for room bloat... (better than a narrow band filter would be, IMO).
The manual says: (emphasis added)
"Use the e.l.f. Trim control to adjust the extreme low bass extension of the Fathom. This control allows -12 dB of cut or +3 dB of boost at 25 Hz..."
The way I read that, it is portrayed as a narrow band filter at 25 Hz. If it's a "response "tilt" control", it should be labeled as such. Look at how people have tried to use it. You should place curves in the manual of its" *actual* effect, so users understand what it actually does.

Just a follow-up on my situation: Waited to hear back from someone at JL. No call back for a week so I called and just kept on getting the voicemail. Left message but no callback. Waited a few days and then left message on someone else's voicemail. No response for a couple of days and then I got a call back from Dave Singh at Gemsen in Canada. Never got a call back from the "higher ups" at JL or even the same guy I talked to. They must've just given Dave the go ahead to replace the sub. I guess I should just be happy it's being replaced but I expected a little more since it was a defective replacement sub. It's a pita to take out one of the kids seats so I can fold the seat down in my wife's RDX and take the sub in. I had hoped they would just come to my place and swap out the sub since it's only 15 mins from Gemsen but it doesn't look like that's gonna happen.

At the end of the day, I spent 14k CDN on subs and am at least getting a replacement. It makes me question the value of buying from a dealer. I could've called the dealer but I'm much closer to Gemsen than they are and I don't know if it's reasonable to expect the dealer to come and pick up the sub and replace it.

let's just hope the replacement for the replacement isn't defective.

I apologize for the lack of a prompt callback. This week has been quite hectic but we should still have replied sooner. Please e-mail me <myusername>@jlaudio.com if you need any assistance, or call me at 954-443-1100.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.
I must say Manville, that half-a$$'d apology seems woefully inadequate. Here is a guy who has spent $$$ (5-figures), on your subs, has had problems with them and now needs a replacement of a replacement... and you guys just blow him off and not answer his phone calls for weeks! What kind of customer service is that?

Not to mention the fact that he's a guy who has said lots of kind things about your subs AND posted pictures of them in his setup. That's invaluable FREE marketing for you. You guys should be bending over backwards to take care of him! At a minimum, you should be making arrangements for someone to go pick up his defective sub and install the re-replacement.

WOW, I must say, I'm really disappointed in JL Audio's customer service. I thought it was better than that.

Craig

Craig, I don't know all of the particulars of The Bogg's calls to us and Gemsen, so I can't say what happened exactly. I do know that Amy, Carl and Brian are very attentive to customer service and that this is a very unusual complaint.

I'm not sure what you were looking for, but I don't think my apology was inadequate. In addition to my apology, I offered to help personally and I also contacted Dave Singh at Gemsen so he could follow up immediately and directly with The Bogg. We will take care of him as we take care of all our customers when problems arise.... we just don't publish everything we do on this forum.

As for your comments about the description of the e.l.f., the language used is not erroneous and is not meant to be misleading. We don't really specify whether it's narrow band or wide band or shelving, etc. because most users don't really need that level of detail. The e.l.f. filter operates as described for its intended use and counteracts room gain very well. I will take your suggestion to provide further graphical explanation for more technically-oriented customers, (perhaps on the website).

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.


The manual says: (emphasis added)

The way I read that, it is portrayed as a narrow band filter at 25 Hz. If it's a "response "tilt" control", it should be labeled as such. Look at how people have tried to use it. You should place curves in the manual of its" *actual* effect, so users understand what it actually does.




I must say Manville, that half-a$$'d apology seems woefully inadequate. Here is a guy who has spent $$$ (5-figures), on your subs, has had problems with them and now needs a replacement of a replacement... and you guys just blow him off and not answer his phone calls for weeks! What kind of customer service is that?

Not to mention the fact that he's a guy who has said lots of kind things about your subs AND posted pictures of them in his setup. That's invaluable FREE marketing for you. You guys should be bending over backwards to take care of him! At a minimum, you should be making arrangements for someone to go pick up his defective sub and install the re-replacement.

WOW, I must say, I'm really disappointed in JL Audio's customer service. I thought it was better than that.

Craig

Craig, I don't know all of the particulars of The Bogg's calls to us and Gemsen, so I can't say what happened exactly. I do know that Amy, Carl and Brian are very attentive to customer service and that this is a very unusual complaint.

I'm not sure what you were looking for, but I don't think my apology was inadequate. In addition to my apology, I offered to help personally and I also contacted Dave Singh at Gemsen so he could follow up immediately and directly with The Bogg. We will take care of him as we take care of all our customers when problems arise.... we just don't publish everything we do on this forum.
You have a very good customer with a second defective sub. You have no one answering the phones on multiple occasions. Most importantly, you have no one returning voice messages, and the appearance that no response was forthcoming. I would have expected you to say you'll find out how this could happen, and what you intend to do to correct it.

As for your comments about the description of the e.l.f., the language used is not erroneous and is not meant to be misleading. We don't really specify whether it's narrow band or wide band or shelving, etc. because most users don't really need that level of detail. The e.l.f. filter operates as described for its intended use and counteracts room gain very well. I will take your suggestion to provide further graphical explanation for more technically-oriented customers, (perhaps on the website).

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.
Here's what happens when you inadequately explain what the e.l.f. Trim Control does:
So here is what I did to set up my 113's. I set the ELF setting to -12, since I know I have a bad peak there and the ELF control is specifically for 25Hz AND I did not want to risk that the ARO would attempt to fix the 25Hz issue and not the 20Hz issue, making the ELF control at that point meaningless (since the ARO would have already taken care of that range).

Clearly, he didn't understand what the e.l.f. Trim Control was doing. I'm certain that most users don't. xcjago's measurements were most enlightening:

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/7314/elf.jpg

These measurements should be in the manual, because "most users" will misunderstand otherwise, not just the "technically oriented" ones. Better yet, re-label the control so its' function is not misunderstood.

Craig

Wow Craig, take a chill pill. You are a very helpful guy and Manville could have been a bit more diplomatic considering what an avid JL proponent you have been on this Forum. But your over the top multi-subject rant is saying more about your delicate ego than any CS issues that JL may have.

I have never known JL not to do the right thing CS wise and I believe that The Bogg although justifiably annoyed, will get satisfaction.

Craig, I'm not trying to be rude but I am taken aback by the assumptions you are making.

You shouldn't infer that I am not going to investigate a bad CS experience. I will dig into it, speak to our staff and take appropriate action. I will also follow through to see that everything is handled and that the customer is taken care of. Any further apologies that are due to Asher after we figure out what the break-down was will be done in person and not published on this forum.

You have a very good customer with a second defective sub. You have no one answering the phones on multiple occasions. Most importantly, you have no one returning voice messages, and the appearance that no response was forthcoming. I would have expected you to say you'll find out how this could happen, and what you intend to do to correct it.

Here's what happens when you inadequately explain what the e.l.f. Trim Control does:

Clearly, he didn't understand what the e.l.f. Trim Control was doing. I'm certain that most users don't. xcjago's measurements were most enlightening:

These measurements should be in the manual, because "most users" will misunderstand otherwise, not just the "technically oriented" ones. Better yet, re-label the control so its' function is not misunderstood.

Craig

Please note that our instructions indicate that the e.l.f. trim should be adjusted after ARO is set up, and not before. If this procedure had been followed, there wouldn't have been any confusion. Regardless, I am taking your comments about it up the chain of command so we can get a clarification of the behavior of e.l.f. up on the website.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.