JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub [Text View] - Page 21

oddeofile

04-22-09, 11:43 AM

You may lose some "slam" at the extreme levels with the 112 vs. 113 but for the most part there performance will be identical in most all real-world situations. In fact quite a few people say the 112 is more musical since it has the ability to play higher up the frequency band and potenially blend better with your mains. A single 12 in your room would sound great. Duals would be incredible.

Agreed. Take a look at this link from Soundoctor.com regarding Bob Katz' (renowned recording engineer) after adding in two JL F112's. http://www.soundoctor.com/bobkatz.htm

I don't know if I would agree the 112 is more "musical" but it depends I would agree of course on the installation and where you prefer to cross over your sub. For music, never above 60 Hz in my application and for film - 80 Hz THX standard. Although, I currently do not run my F113 for all low end alone, I am running it in the PLUS mode for both large front mains + the sub. Sometimes, I do run it solo.

Am curious where most folks bought their JL's from? I bought my first one through HiFi Buys in Nashville which was before I found Barry @ Soundoctor.com who is fantastic, to say the least. Ordering my second F113 this week from Barry and I HIGHLY recommend him if you do not know him. He provides a set up disc that provides true signal tones, not the ones on DVE, etc., to set them up properly and instructions on proper phase integration which, as I found out the hard way, is a HUGE factor in proper sub integration.

Am sure by the time I have my second one all set up, I will run all low end through the subs from the front mains.

BTW, I agree - WOTW bottom end is seriously killer. Even with one F113. I thought the floor in my second story family/AV room was going to come down... scared the you-know-what out of me! And, that was not even anywhere near reference level. Probably around 75 dB max. I had no idea it even existed prior to adding the 113 as my front mains roll off around 30 Hz. That is one disc I can not wait for Blu-ray to come out as well as SPR.

New to this forum, but have posted several on other forums on AVS. I appreciate all the knowledge base on the AVS forum.

:)

Fanaticalism

04-22-09, 01:38 PM

Thanks for the responses. :)

I am going with the 112.

oddeofile

04-22-09, 01:53 PM

Thanks for the responses. :)

I am going with the 112.

Good choice, you will not be sorry. I would suggest contacting Barry @ Soundoctor.com to order. :D

Barry has great prices, top service and support both before and after sale, helps you with issues, problems, works very closely with JL Audio and their staff, and, well, you will see on his website why...

dmichael

04-22-09, 02:45 PM

Hey guys, I am about to jump on a JL, but I am torn between the 113/112. There is a substantial difference in price for me, and while I know what the specs are, would I be REALLY short changing myself by going with the 112? My room is only 18x12x8, and acoustically, it is as good as it gets without treatments (treatments will yield minor improvements).

My goal is to have duals, which is why I am thinking the 112 would suffice. What exactly would I be sacrificing other than a bit more extension in the ULF's?

Thanks guys.

I have an f110 in a very challenging room. 16x19 with 17 foot cieling plus the room nearly fully opens into a kitchen thats even larger but with 9 foot cielings. I'm not quite done tweaking and dialing in this sub, and although it has surprisingly shown tremendous visceral impact at times, overall, I think its being pushed to its limits far too often. My intention is to get an f112 or f113, but I'm torn between which to get. If I get an f113, then I blow the budget and wouldn't be able to get a 2nd for quite some time, if I get a f112 and its still not enough impact, I might be able to stretch my budget to get its twin.

The question is will the f113 be satisfying enough on its own, I am hoping yes, so I can get one and be done with it. I only have 1 corner where the sub(s) will fit so if I get a 2nd it will have to be colocated, maybe even stacked. I am thinking a pair should be separated for best results but I doubt that will be possible. any advice is greatly appreciated.

oddeofile

04-22-09, 03:01 PM

I have an f110 in a very challenging room. 16x19 with 17 foot cieling plus the room nearly fully opens into a kitchen thats even larger but with 9 foot cielings. I'm not quite done tweaking and dialing in this sub, and although it has surprisingly shown tremendous visceral impact at times, overall, I think its being pushed to its limits far too often. My intention is to get an f112 or f113, but I'm torn between which to get. If I get an f113, then I blow the budget and wouldn't be able to get a 2nd for quite some time, if I get a f112 and its still not enough impact, I might be able to stretch my budget to get its twin.

The question is will the f113 be satisfying enough on its own, I am hoping yes, so I can get one and be done with it. I only have 1 corner where the sub(s) will fit so if I get a 2nd it will have to be colocated, maybe even stacked. I am thinking a pair should be separated for best results but I doubt that will be possible. any advice is greatly appreciated.

Hmm. Tough call. Check out the link here that lists a lot of the reviews on both the F112 and F113: http://www.soundoctor.com/jlaudio.htm

Just one F113 in my room, which is similar, only slightly smaller, but does open on the right side to an open stairwell that has two landings down to the first floor and is all open, has provided scary impact and shows no signs of reaching its limitations. I have read somewhere that JL put an F113 outside with a mic at 1 meter and recorded 120 dB volume without damaging the sub. Ouside, mind you. But, that is just print. The reviews are mostly using one 112 or 113 and both seem to rock the reviewer's world. Note the 113 has 2,500 watts peak power. That is a lot of power. Or, if you really want to go the extreme, wait and buy an F212 or Gotham. Guaranteed, one Gotham will pull your walls down. :D

The F212 is also a killer performer, I have read. You might consider that instead of two F112's; the drivers are updated from the F112 and since you only have one location, better than stacking two F112's with better performance, so I have read. Contact Barry @ Soundoctor.com (same site as the reivews link is above) for his pricing on an F212, etc. Besides, he gives superb service and support to integrate it properly with phase, etc.

Fanaticalism

04-22-09, 05:37 PM

oddeofile

04-22-09, 05:53 PM

Well, the deed has been done. I should expect to have it either Saturday, or Monday. The only thing that I am dissappointed in, is the fact that I couldn't get two right away (My true goal is FOUR!):p.

I had dual SuperCubes II's before, but from everything I've read, the single JL should outperform them

Fanaticalism, what did you end up getting? Am also curious who you got yours through. It is always good to find out from others their thoughts and reasons why they bought where they did and their results.

Thanks!

craig john

04-22-09, 10:31 PM

oddeofile

04-23-09, 05:14 PM

Djoel

04-23-09, 07:35 PM

Am curious if anyone has used any after market AC power cables with their JL subs vs. the standard cable that comes with the sub and their findings. JL basically jumps up and down about it so I am curious if anyone found any improvments by doing so.

I highly doubt there would be any audio differences between what JL puts in the box and some after market power cable. Well saying that I've never used JL's generic power cable:D

I would think they are jumping up and down to get your attention and avoid any serious malfunction with the sub,and then trying to get it fixed on their dime.;)

DJoel

craig john

04-23-09, 08:19 PM

...after market AC power cables with their JL subs...
If you want to talk about "after market AC power cables", you are in the wrong forum. This is the AV Science Forum. You want the AV Sorcery Forum:
http://www.psaudio.com/ps/knowledge/why-do-aftermarket-power-cables-make-a-difference
:D:D:D

Just kidding. Actually, if you read that article, you'll understand why the JL Power Cable is perfectly adequate: it's big, it's well shielded, it uses good wire and good connectors. It's highly unlikely you'll see any significant improvement with an after market power cable. If you do hear a "difference", it probably won't be an "improvement".

Craig

The Bogg

04-24-09, 03:40 PM

Am curious if anyone has used any after market AC power cables with their JL subs vs. the standard cable that comes with the sub and their findings. JL basically jumps up and down about it so I am curious if anyone found any improvments by doing so.

I found there was 80% less trip factor with the PS Audio power cables I use. i.e. I'm 80% less likely to trip over the cable which is 80% shorter than the stock one. :)

oddeofile

04-24-09, 04:45 PM

I found there was 80% less trip factor with the PS Audio power cables I use. i.e. I'm 80% less likely to trip over the cable which is 80% shorter than the stock one. :)

Interesting... I had to laugh. Great post. Curious which PSA cables you use with the sub and reflections on any changes in sonic perspective, slam, dynamics, etc.

Maybe PM me if you think appropriate. Thanks.

RMK!

04-24-09, 05:04 PM

Am curious if anyone has used any after market AC power cables with their JL subs vs. the standard cable that comes with the sub and their findings. JL basically jumps up and down about it so I am curious if anyone found any improvments by doing so.

When he delivered my F112's my JL dealer brought some very high end power cables for me to try. They were in the $500 and above each class. I was very skeptical but he insisted that the differences were easily heard and i had to try them out.

Well, after a few minutes all I could say was WOW … WOW:o in that I am one dumb bastard to have gone for it and WOW:mad: that you just wasted 30 minutes of my life that I will never get back on this absurd demonstration.

msmith_JL

04-24-09, 05:18 PM

When he delivered my F112's my JL dealer brought some very high end power cables for me to try. They were in the $500 and above each class. I was very skeptical but he insisted that the differences were easily heard and i had to try them out.

Well, after a few minutes all I could say was WOW … WOW:o in that I am one dumb bastard to have gone for it and WOW:mad: that you just wasted 30 minutes of my life that I will never get back on this absurd demonstration.

You had me worried for a minute. :p

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

The Bogg

04-24-09, 08:42 PM

Interesting... I had to laugh. Great post. Curious which PSA cables you use with the sub and reflections on any changes in sonic perspective, slam, dynamics, etc.

Maybe PM me if you think appropriate. Thanks.

I think it was the PS Audio plasma power cable. Either 10 or 12 gauge, shielded, built well, not too expensive. And short, because my subs are close to the sidewall where the plug is.

I didn't do a comparison on the cables so I can't comment.

The Bogg

04-24-09, 08:43 PM

Fanaticalism

04-24-09, 11:18 PM

My JL came in today, and I have to say, that I have really been missing out on loads of information with my previous setup. This thing is exposing a whole bunch of new rattles. The amount of visceral impact is just surreal. Needless to say, I am in no rush to get the second one, and will start working on other areas of my system.

Here is a pic:

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm214/lcjrodriguez/here003.jpg

xcjago

04-24-09, 11:22 PM

That's a really beautiful setup you have there. Vienna Acoustics right? And love the Pioneer Elite Plasma.

Fanaticalism

04-24-09, 11:26 PM

That's a really beautiful setup you have there. Vienna Acoustics right? And love the Pioneer Elite Plasma.

Yep, those are VA's.

Thank you!

KyleLee

04-24-09, 11:34 PM

Djoel

04-24-09, 11:46 PM

Fanaticalism

04-24-09, 11:54 PM

Yeah, I decided on the 112, since it will allow me to add a second, and upgrade the rest of the system much sooner than anticipated. I hope to of completed the upgrade by the summer.

Had to take things a little slower, due to the fact that my second son is due July 25th. Must say, 2009 is turning out to be a great year thus far. :)

Fanaticalism

04-25-09, 01:15 PM

I had a chance to let 'er rip this morning with the wife, we watched Harry Potter The Order of the Phoenix, and the last chapter where Dombeldorf(?) and Vol De Mort(?) go head to head was just absolutely astounding. Everytime there was a large sweep, she would look around her to see the walls flexing, and just burst out in laughter. I think number 2 is going to be a little easier for her to swallow now. Lol.

xcjago

04-25-09, 10:13 PM

oddeofile

04-25-09, 10:24 PM

Nice Fanaticalism!!! Am ordering my second 113 on Monday which will come in as soon as I get back from vacation. Can not wait! Yes, these do increase the dynamic range of your system immensely that is for sure. Just one makes me wonder if my neighbors are going to come after me like the villagers after Frankenstein. I love JL's owners manual in the FAQ section... Angry neighbors? Invite them in and give 'em a drink! Ha. No kidding.

Djoel

04-25-09, 11:38 PM

Yeah, I decided on the 112, since it will allow me to add a second, and upgrade the rest of the system much sooner than anticipated. I hope to of completed the upgrade by the summer

Hindsight I should have gotten a 112 as well, but my over kill personality voted against it.
Not that I'm complaining I still marvel at this component every time it I look at it, doesn't have to be on either.

Had to take things a little slower, due to the fact that my second son is due July 25th. Must say, 2009 is turning out to be a great year thus far. :)

Nice world your preparing for him, lucky guy...Congrats on the new arrival as well.:)

Djoel

Fanaticalism

04-26-09, 01:40 AM

Hey Fanaticalism, do you happen to have a higher res version of this picture? Could you post it if you do? Thanks!

How's this one?

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm214/lcjrodriguez/here003-1.jpg

Nice Fanaticalism!!! Am ordering my second 113 on Monday which will come in as soon as I get back from vacation. Can not wait! Yes, these do increase the dynamic range of your system immensely that is for sure. Just one makes me wonder if my neighbors are going to come after me like the villagers after Frankenstein. I love JL's owners manual in the FAQ section... Angry neighbors? Invite them in and give 'em a drink! Ha. No kidding.

;)

Hindsight I should have gotten a 112 as well, but my over kill personality voted against it.
Not that I'm complaining I still marvel at this component every time it I look at it, doesn't have to be on either.

Nice world your preparing for him, lucky guy...Congrats on the new arrival as well.:)

Djoel

Thank you very much!

xcjago

04-26-09, 01:53 AM

Awesome! Thanks!

ricardofeitoza

04-27-09, 04:06 PM

I almost got a SVS Ultra a few months ago. I have a Paradigm Servo 15 V.2 and love this sealed sub, that s why I ve decided to save a little more and go for the 113.
Could anyone recommend me a store/dealer around Toronto that sells JL subs and of course for a reasonable price?

Thanks in advance

Rick

tractng

04-27-09, 04:25 PM

How's this one?

http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm214/lcjrodriguez/here003-1.jpg

;)

Thank you very much!

What size is the room?

Very nice.

Tony

tractng

04-27-09, 05:00 PM

Guys, this is an f113 thread. Don't crap on the f113 and tout other subs in this thread. It's not the place for that sort of thing.

Also, having two subs take up a lot space. Not all people have a large living room :rolleyes:

tnt

The Bogg

04-27-09, 05:20 PM

Fanaticalism

04-27-09, 05:36 PM

What size is the room?

Very nice.

Tony

Thank you! It is only 18x12x8

oddeofile

04-27-09, 06:06 PM

www.designprogression.com in Mississauga.
His name is Gary. Tell him Asher referred you.

you could also contact Barry Ober at Soundoctor. He ships JL's all over the world. In fact, I just found out today that JL has asked Barry to handle all their home audio technical issues as their technical advisor so when you call JL with a technical problem, guess who you get... yup - Barry. So, if you want a great sub, by the technical advisor himself for JL, with support better than anywhere else on placement, etc. Order from Barry. Also, if you send Barry a layout of your room plus dimensions, etc. he will work with you on the best placement setups for your particular arrangement. His support, knowledge, etc. is second to none. Just ordered F113 #2 today from him. :D Can not wait. Will be delivered in two weeks today (am on vacation N/W so have to wait until I get back).

Give Barry a shout and tell him Richard B. sent you.

Barry's site is http://www.soundoctor.com/index.htm

Enjoy.

msmith_JL

04-27-09, 06:56 PM

you could also contact Barry Ober at Soundoctor. He ships JL's all over the world. In fact, I just found out today that JL has asked Barry to handle all their home audio technical issues as their technical advisor so when you call JL with a technical problem, guess who you get... yup - Barry. So, if you want a great sub, by the technical advisor himself for JL, with support better than anywhere else on placement, etc. Order from Barry. Also, if you send Barry a layout of your room plus dimensions, etc. he will work with you on the best placement setups for your particular arrangement. His support, knowledge, etc. is second to none. Just ordered F113 #2 today from him. :D Can not wait. Will be delivered in two weeks today (am on vacation N/W so have to wait until I get back).

Give Barry a shout and tell him Richard B. sent you.

Barry's site is http://www.soundoctor.com/index.htm

Enjoy.

I have to correct something here.

Barry at Sounddoctor only ships to international markets where we have no established distributor. Canada has an authorized distributor, responsible for the Canadian market.

Gem-Sen Distribution
266 Applewood Crescent
Concord
Ontario, Canada, L4K 4B4.
Phone: 905 660 3110
Email: daves@gemsen.com (Dave Singh)
Website: www.gemsen.com

gchuva

04-27-09, 10:37 PM

Hindsight I should have gotten a 112 as well, but my over kill personality voted against it.

Why do you wish you had gotten a 112? I am trying to decide which JL sub to get at the moment. I thought there was no such thing as too much bass.:D

Djoel

04-28-09, 12:07 AM

Why do you wish you had gotten a 112? I am trying to decide which JL sub to get at the moment. I thought there was no such thing as too much bass.:D

I was lying:D,
But if I wasn't ,and really wish I gotten the 112, I would have gotten a pair by now;)

Djoel

oddeofile

04-28-09, 03:11 PM

Why do you wish you had gotten a 112? I am trying to decide which JL sub to get at the moment. I thought there was no such thing as too much bass.:D

Hey, go for broke and get a Gotham. :D

You'll relocate your house a few feet with each blast from U-571. Ha ha.

I just placed my order for my seond 113. Its not so much about more bass, per se, as it is balancing out the room, standing waves, etc. with the second sub.

A must have option - two subs. Just like your stereo (eeeck... that word!) sounds so much better with the reinforcement of two speakers vs. one (the whole is greater than the sum of the parts), so does your bottom end with two subs.

Did anyone read the TAS article on the Gotham??!! I do not have it handy to refer to right now but the reviewer used two Gotham's in his review. Mighty gutsy to try it. Can you imagine the air movement in his sound room with two of those? Talk about having to clean your shorts!

adidino

04-28-09, 03:14 PM

Question for those who have dual JL's up front..

Are you using a master/slave setup or a Y splitter? Anyone needing to take extra care to phasing with two subs up front?

oddeofile

04-28-09, 03:20 PM

Question for those who have dual JL's up front..

Are you using a master/slave setup or a Y splitter? Anyone needing to take extra care to phasing with two subs up front?

i will be using a Y adaptor for now pending receipt of my SC-09TX Elite receiver that allows for dual subs and individual gain settings for both.

You ALWAYS need to phase them properly for proper integration with the main system or they are out of whack with the main speaker the sub is closest to. A must do for a sub if you want it to sound right and blend properly.

If you want the best tools to do so and do not have a processor that has audessey or any of those systems in it, contact Barry @ soundoctor.com. Barry has the best test signals, set ups, etc. and instructions to do this quick, easy and properly.

adidino

04-28-09, 03:47 PM

i will be using a Y adaptor for now pending receipt of my SC-09TX Elite receiver that allows for dual subs and individual gain settings for both.

You ALWAYS need to phase them properly for proper integration with the main system or they are out of whack with the main speaker the sub is closest to. A must do for a sub if you want it to sound right and blend properly.

If you want the best tools to do so and do not have a processor that has audessey or any of those systems in it, contact Barry @ soundoctor.com. Barry has the best test signals, set ups, etc. and instructions to do this quick, easy and properly.

If I'm not mistaken, a master slave connection avoids some of the phasing issues if they are both up front vs using a Y connection.

craig john

04-28-09, 03:48 PM

Question for those who have dual JL's up front..

Are you using a master/slave setup or a Y splitter? Anyone needing to take extra care to phasing with two subs up front?
I use Master/Slave. This allows the subs to be "gain-matched". IOW, both subs will produce exactly the same amount of volume from a specific input signal.

If you use a "Y" cable and you "level-match" the subs with an SPL meter, each sub will interact differently with the room and the measurement position. This could lead to widely different level settings, (even though the *measured* levels are the same.) You don't want one sub set higher than the other because the higher-set sub will reach full output before the lower set sub. You won't be using the full capacity of the lower-set sub.

For example, if one sub is in a spot where there are several significant peaks in the response, and the other sub is in a spot where there are several nulls in the response, the "peaky" sub's level will be set much lower than the sub with the nulls. This could be by 6 or 8 or 10, (or more) dB. The net effect is that you'll be stressing one sub, while the other sub is barely working.

Using Master/Slave sets the gains exactly the same and avoids this problem.

Craig

craig john

04-28-09, 03:50 PM

If I'm not mistaken, a master slave connection avoids some of the phasing issues if they are both up front vs using a Y connection.
That's another good point. My dual F112's are placed up front, next to my L/R's. The Master's phase control is set to "0", and it controls both subs.

Craig

adidino

04-28-09, 03:51 PM

I use Master/Slave. This allows the subs to be "gain-matched". IOW, both subs will produce exactly the same amount of volume from a specific input signal.

If you use a "Y" cable and you "level-match" the subs with an SPL meter, each sub will interact differently with the room and the measurement position. This could lead to widely different level settings, (even though the *measured* levels are the same.) You don't want one sub set higher than the other because the higher-set sub will reach full output before the lower set sub. You won't be using the full capacity of the lower-set sub.

For example, if one sub is in a spot where there are several significant peaks in the response, and the other sub is in a spot where there are several nulls in the response, the "peaky" sub's level will be set much lower than the sub with the nulls. This could be by 6 or 8 or 10, (or more) dB. The net effect is that you'll be stressing one sub, while the other sub is barely working.

Using Master/Slave sets the gains exactly the same and avoids this problem.

Craig

Agreed.. as that's how I have it.. just wondering about phase since the slave sub phase control is disabled in a master/slave configuration.

adidino

04-28-09, 03:56 PM

That's another good point. My dual F112's are placed up front, next to my L/R's. The Master's phase control is set to "0", and it controls both subs.

Craig

0 eh? Interesting.. I found 45 degrees gave the cleanest output for some reason. 45d also got rid of this nasty hole I had between 60hz- 70hz.

oddeofile

04-28-09, 04:37 PM

If I'm not mistaken, a master slave connection avoids some of the phasing issues if they are both up front vs using a Y connection.

The applicble phrase you used is "some" of the phasing issues. If you want it done right, you have to phase each sub individually according to its proximity to the nearest main speaker to do it right. Otherwise, it may be close, but not exact. To do it right, you need to get them as closely in phase as possible which is an individual process.

oddeofile

04-28-09, 05:23 PM

0 eh? Interesting.. I found 45 degrees gave the cleanest output for some reason. 45d also got rid of this nasty hole I had between 60hz- 70hz.

Indeed, and after careful set up of mine, the #1 sub is exactly 45 degrees phase corrected manually after proper setup and yep, it did the exact same thing.

I am not a fan of master/slaving and others might be. I will not be setting my second sub to a different volume level however by not master/slaving it gives you the ability to fine tune exact phase characteristics of both subs separately AND gives you the gain option if you so choose for some reason - more flexibility. Also, it allows you to do separate ARO rus for both subs - master/slave runs the slave to the master sub's settings. Different placement in the room results in different ARO settings for both subs.

My personal opinion - which is just that "my opinion" is that master/slaving is for a "set it and forget it" type set up. I am way too anal to let one sub handle both.

But, like I am always fond of saying, what is good for one is not so good for another and others disagree and frankly, that is what makes this so very interesting a hobby!!!! Besides, many times when I have stuck my oddeophile geek head in a hole others came up with great ideas I had not thought of before and decided to try other approaches. Sometimes, they work for me, sometimes not. But, the difference is I am willing to listen and perhaps learn something I had not previously considered.

This is what makes this fun, to me, or it would be so very boring. :D

craig john

04-28-09, 09:21 PM

Indeed, and after careful set up of mine, the #1 sub is exactly 45 degrees phase corrected manually after proper setup and yep, it did the exact same thing.

I am not a fan of master/slaving and others might be. I will not be setting my second sub to a different volume level however by not master/slaving it gives you the ability to fine tune exact phase characteristics of both subs separately AND gives you the gain option if you so choose for some reason - more flexibility. Also, it allows you to do separate ARO rus for both subs - master/slave runs the slave to the master sub's settings. Different placement in the room results in different ARO settings for both subs.

My personal opinion - which is just that "my opinion" is that master/slaving is for a "set it and forget it" type set up. I am way too anal to let one sub handle both.

But, like I am always fond of saying, what is good for one is not so good for another and others disagree and frankly, that is what makes this so very interesting a hobby!!!! Besides, many times when I have stuck my oddeophile geek head in a hole others came up with great ideas I had not thought of before and decided to try other approaches. Sometimes, they work for me, sometimes not. But, the difference is I am willing to listen and perhaps learn something I had not previously considered.

This is what makes this fun, to me, or it would be so very boring. :D
Clearly, there are multiple ways to achieve a good result. :) I use Master/Slave, a "0" phase setting, no ARO, and then allow Audyssey to do it's thing. My subs are located up front, equi-distant to the primary LP. Audyssey "finds" the subs at their exact physical distance and sets delays accordingly. Works for me.

Craig

Sharp1080

04-28-09, 10:51 PM

oddeofile

04-29-09, 07:07 AM

This subject has been brought up before as it would be as more JL owners enter the thread. I've tried both connections. The master/slave was easier to setup. If I had not already ordered a second RCA cable I would have just left it as is. I tried it for several days until my second RCA cable from Signal cable arrived. I then proceeded to connect them individually and have left it as it is since then. Sonically they were identical with no real dip in response in my room YMMV. To set my phase I used a CD with acoustic bass playing and set the phase by listening to when the mains and sub blended together. The sub should be felt and not heard. If you can hear your sub playing from your listening position the crossover is set too high.

Agreed. You used one of the two ways to accurately set your phase. The other is to use a narrow band test signal at the exact crossover point, set the closest main speaker out of phase (flip spkr cables the opposite connection) then play the test tone and set until the sound cancels out and voila' you have your phase properly set. All other spkrs have to be turned off during this set up. Flip your speaker connectons back to normal and the sub is now phased right on target. Set the volume level as noted above and you are ready to rock and roll.

adidino

04-29-09, 07:42 AM

scanido

04-29-09, 09:25 AM

Agreed. You used one of the two ways to accurately set your phase. The other is to use a narrow band test signal at the exact crossover point, set the closest main speaker out of phase (flip spkr cables the opposite connection) then play the test tone and set until the sound cancels out and voila' you have your phase properly set. All other spkrs have to be turned off during this set up. Flip your speaker connectons back to normal and the sub is now phased right on target. Set the volume level as noted above and you are ready to rock and roll.

Thanks for the tip. I used a similar method to this but with an SPL meter and one of the main speakers in phase. Using the SPL meter i would find the phase that would give the absolute highest SPL at the given x-over point. Although, in certain music tracks I can still distinguish where the sub is.

I have to try this method to see if it sounds better. When hearing when the sound "cancels out" is this done at the listening position?

oddeofile

04-29-09, 12:05 PM

Thanks for the tip. I used a similar method to this but with an SPL meter and one of the main speakers in phase. Using the SPL meter i would find the phase that would give the absolute highest SPL at the given x-over point. Although, in certain music tracks I can still distinguish where the sub is.

I have to try this method to see if it sounds better. When hearing when the sound "cancels out" is this done at the listening position?

It won't. I inquired of this with sources and it is far more technical than my feeble ability could dictate, but it does not. You are phasing the sub closest to the main speaker near it. Try this and see hat happens.... If you phase the one in near the main speaker and put your head equidistant from both the sub and speaker and phase until they cancel then do with the other one separately then run a test signal you'll find that not only does it not cancel each sub out, it improved the whole, markedly. So I am told and will have the opportunity to check this out in a week or so when the second 113 arrives. My source is highly trusted and an acoustician by trade and a highly respected installer/engineer, etc. I am just a poor old feeble audio geek trying to muddle through and hopefully give some decent advice somewhere along the road...

Yartle

04-29-09, 12:19 PM

Hey all,

Hope you don’t mind me joining in from the UK? I am one of the lucky people to have an F113 in England and just finished reading this thread, which has given me a lot of understanding and answered almost all my questions….

Very impressed so far, it was an upgrade from a SVS PC Ultra and I am loving the precision and just how fast this sub is! I am considering another one, but they are VERY expensive to import so needs some working out, why are these so addictive??

What I wanted to ask was:

- Is it possible to stack these without problem? If so what do you put in between them? At the moment I don’t have at much space (I have the Dali Helicon 400mk2 and C200 mk2 already and its made my little house a bit squashed!)

- Does anyone notice that there is slight warmth at the top of the sub that you can feel through the MDF? I put it down to the changes made to allow it to work as 240v, so you may not be able to answer, but I just wondered if it was a common feature?

Anyway also wanted just to say hello and thanks to all contributors.

The Bogg

04-29-09, 03:44 PM

Are you sure it's not heat rising from the heatsinks at the back?

Kain

04-29-09, 03:46 PM

Yartle

04-29-09, 04:04 PM

Are you sure it's not heat rising from the heatsinks at the back?
It could be, I'll try and isolate the heat a little more and let you know.

Yartle

04-29-09, 04:06 PM

Did you upgrade from the current Ultra (PC13-Ultra) or the previous Ultra (PC12-Ultra)?
PC13-Ultra and while I do think that the F113 is an upgrade, before I offend anyone I have very high respect for the SVS - its an excellent sub.

Taterworks

05-01-09, 08:33 AM

AudioArchitect wrote:

"Our DD-12 sounded muddy and weak compared to the Fathom".

Well, I can understand "weak", but I've never heard any of the DD's described as "muddy" before. Being a DD owner, I wonder if AudioArchitect might be kind enough to expound on the "muddy" thing?

Ran

It's possible that if the evaluator was noticing 'mud', they might have been running the DD12 against its limiters to try to get it to match the Fathom 112's output. The Fathom 112 driver has about 4" p-p excursion, according to JL marketing material, and while the DD12 woofer may be beefy, it isn't that beefy. The Velo sub has limiters in place to prevent the sub from producing distortion, which is the goal of the DD series anyhow - minimizing distortion, not beating all comers where output is concerned.

I'd suggest that this test be repeated with sub levels both calibrated around 80dB.

Taterworks

05-01-09, 11:13 PM

Regarding thermals...it's probably nothing to be worried about. More than likely, it's heat rising off the interior surface of the amplifier plate, combined with whatever heat the AC transformer is kicking out. Since the Fathom 112 is sealed, that heat doesn't get vented to the outside. It's not a problem, though, unless you start noticing discolored or bubbled areas in the finish from the heat...which is highly unlikely unless your amp is catching fire - in which case, you're about to have bigger problems.

Kain

05-02-09, 12:01 AM

I have a question regarding the f113. Since it is a sealed subwoofer, why does it roll off so sharply below 20Hz? I thought sealed designs were suppose to roll off "gently." Considering its very powerful amplifier, I would have thought it would have strong output at 10Hz and even below.

mojomike

05-02-09, 12:07 AM

Kain

05-02-09, 12:09 AM

The Fathom is equalized flat to around 20hz and then filtered to roll off sharply just below. Why would they want it to roll of sharply below 20Hz? :confused:

adidino

05-03-09, 12:56 PM

Why would they want it to roll of sharply below 20Hz? :confused:

Uses a highpass filter to protect the driver.

The Bogg

05-04-09, 08:51 PM

Why would they want it to roll of sharply below 20Hz? :confused:

Why WOULDN'T they? There's only so much you're gonna get out of a small box even with a high-excursion driver. May as well maximize the usable output.

kutlow

05-05-09, 01:23 AM

Come on Jl ....Do a subwoofer upgrade for 2009/10:D

gchuva

05-07-09, 05:40 AM

That response from -3db@18hz dropping to -10db@16hz would seem to indicate a low filter at around 17hz or so. Really deep bass in the low teens and single digits should simply be ignored by the f113.

Are there any Fathom owners out there who have added another sub to address deep bass issues below 18hz? I was trying to think of some options, although as a general matter I know it is not a good thing to mix subs.

adidino

05-07-09, 03:25 PM

Are there any Fathom owners out there who have added another sub to address deep bass issues below 18hz? I was trying to think of some options, although as a general matter I know it is not a good thing to mix subs.

I was considering as similiar setup for my theater. I've had my eye on the Def Tech Trinity for ultra deep bass as an addition to my dual f113's

BJB23

05-10-09, 12:45 PM

Does anyone have some good pictures that show what the satin finish looks like? Or if someone would be willing to take and post some I would appreciate it. All the ones I’ve found that show the finish well are the gloss black. I’m thinking about getting a pair of 113’s and trying to show “the woman” what the finishes look like. I went and demoed them yesterday and saw both finishes in person myself but the dealer is an hour away so it would be a pain to go all the way back just to show her the finishes. I like the gloss finish but she thinks it’s too shinny so I’m trying to show her the other option.

Thanks.
-Brad

tranle

05-10-09, 01:08 PM

Does anyone have some good pictures that show what the satin finish looks like?
...
Thanks.
-Brad
I don't think that computer photos will render it correctly. But you can think of it as the difference between the Sony mat lcd screen and the Samsung glossy lcd screen.

Jose

05-10-09, 08:37 PM

How about this?
http://home.jlaudio.com/products_subs_pages.php?page_id=39

GET THE GLOSS FINISH:D!!!!!

Fanaticalism

05-10-09, 08:39 PM

Only reason I opted for the satin, was because it went well with my other components.

Most with a dedicated theater would opt for the satin as well, as to not draw reflections.

BJB23

05-10-09, 09:57 PM

How about this?
http://home.jlaudio.com/products_subs_pages.php?page_id=39

GET THE GLOSS FINISH:D!!!!!

Thanks. Not sure how I missed that one.

BJB23

05-10-09, 10:01 PM

Only reason I opted for the satin, was because it went well with my other components.

Most with a dedicated theater would opt for the satin as well, as to not draw reflections.

I like the gloss better, but think I'll be going with the satin too because it will match better. Plus I won't have to listen to someone bitch about it being too shinny.

Fanaticalism

05-11-09, 12:08 AM

Once you fire it up, and she sees what you have brought into the house during a movie, with her on the other side of it, the shininess is going to be the last thing she is going to be bitching about lol!

Djoel

05-11-09, 03:41 PM

How about this?
http://home.jlaudio.com/products_subs_pages.php?page_id=39

GET THE GLOSS FINISH:D!!!!!

1+ Ditto Kiddo ..... Hey Jose you have a pair ?

Once you fire it up, and she sees what you have brought into the house during a movie, with her on the other side of it, the shininess is going to be the last thing she is going to be bitching about lol!

Ain't that the truth LOL:D, I was just telling the little lady after watching Death Race, and Let The Right One In, that we should get another one F113...The look on her face said a thousand words...and none of them good:rolleyes:

Djoel

Fanaticalism

05-11-09, 06:28 PM

adidino

05-11-09, 07:43 PM

1+ Ditto Kiddo ..... Hey Jose you have a pair ?

He doesn't but I've been workin' him.. he will soon enough.. LOL! :D

Jose

05-11-09, 10:15 PM

1+ Ditto Kiddo ..... Hey Jose you have a pair ?
Djoel

Pair of subs or....:p
Just the one F112 for now. Was thinking about it briefly just after I bought it, but decided to wait cause of my recently purchased Arcam AVR600. It's used for just HT now but if I needed it for music, I might've done it.

He doesn't but I've been workin' him.. he will soon enough.. LOL! :D

One of these days buddy. Maybe I should get a job first:D.

oddeofile

05-11-09, 11:12 PM

Heh, it's funny, because last night, she commented on the fact I am pretty much done with the upgrade, and I basically responded with...

Me: Well, aside from the rack, pretty much. All I have to get is the other woofer
Her: What do you mean? The one we have sounds like the house is gonna fall apart
Me: Honey, remember that we had two "woofers" before? I HAVE to get the other one, it's part of the system

She basically had this confused look on her face. Lol!

My second F113 is arriving direct from JL to Soundoctor to me on Friday... HIGH GLOSS, of course. Can not wait. :D

Djoel

05-11-09, 11:26 PM

Pair of subs or....:p
Just the one F112 for now. Was thinking about it briefly just after I bought it, but decided to wait cause of my recently purchased Arcam AVR600. It's used for just HT now but if I needed it for music, I might've done it.

Ditto on the Gloss finish... Nah I was just wondering if you had two of the fathom in a NYC apt, which sound pretty similar to mine, would love to have another one.. So the C11A is gone? I've been reading great stuff on your AVR600, can't wait to hear on their Pre/Pro soon to arrive.

He doesn't but I've been workin' him.. he will soon enough.. LOL! :D

You are one great friend;)

Djoel

Djoel

05-11-09, 11:33 PM

Heh, it's funny, because last night, she commented on the fact I am pretty much done with the upgrade, and I basically responded with...

Me: Well, aside from the rack, pretty much. All I have to get is the other woofer
Her: What do you mean? The one we have sounds like the house is gonna fall apart
Me: Honey, remember that we had two "woofers" before? I HAVE to get the other one, it's part of the system

She basically had this confused look on her face. Lol!

Sorry it didn't go anywhere..Perhaps next time.

Hmm pretty much went the same way over here..:( But I'll be using that same argument..Babe we have a pair of speakers, sooo, we need another sub..
Doubt that will work but who knows:)

DJoel

Jose

05-12-09, 12:25 AM

Ditto on the Gloss finish... Nah I was just wondering if you had two of the fathom in a NYC apt, which sound pretty similar to mine, would love to have another one.. So the C11A is gone? I've been reading great stuff on your AVR600, can't wait to hear on their Pre/Pro soon to arrive.

Djoel

That's the thing, NYC apt. Don't really need the extra bass output no matter the ol' saying on the matter about never having enough.
The 11a is gone and I can't say enough about the Arcam. Loved the dynamic and clean sound of my previous Krell S1000/HTS 7.1 for movies but the Arcam simply can't be beat. Can't imagine how or if the pre/pro version can sound better for HT. Have a dedicated 2ch music pre so music thru the AV888 is not an issue.

You are one great friend;)

Djoel

Yeah, he kills me, but I've been to his place and his HT setup with those twin F113 is first rate. Now, if he can only start a dedicated 2ch system...:D.

adidino

05-12-09, 05:08 PM

The 11a is gone and I can't say enough about the Arcam. Loved the dynamic and clean sound of my previous Krell S1000/HTS 7.1 for movies but the Arcam simply can't be beat. Can't imagine how or if the pre/pro version can sound better for HT. Have a dedicated 2ch music pre so music thru the AV888 is not an issue. .

+1 on the Arcam. I've never been happier which is saying a lot since I've never been 100% happy with all the processors I've owned over the years. Especially the hell I experienced with the 11a.

Yeah, he kills me, but I've been to his place and his HT setup with those twin F113 is first rate. Now, if he can only start a dedicated 2ch system...:D

I appreciate that. :) 2 channel dedicated is on the drawing board. Was hoping to find the perfect speaker for my HT for both movies and music but the Triad Golds aren't too shabby at all. :)

blownaway

05-18-09, 02:35 PM

I'm sure this question has been asked before, but here goes...

I have a JL Labs Fathom 13 subwoofer which has its own calibration software and microphone that you can use to optimally tweak the sub for your room.

I have a Denon AVR5308.

I have a medium sized room, with the sub in the corner. I usually need to tame the LFE output on the JL, even after calibration due to the corner location and modest room size.

For best results, would you recommend running the JL calibration mentioned above before or after I run the Audyssey calibration?

Esox50

05-18-09, 08:43 PM

For best results, would you recommend running the JL calibration mentioned above before or after I run the Audyssey calibration?
Well, I just ran Audyssey for my setup. The results are fantastic.

I would think if you are going to run both you should run the ARO first. But I don't really see the point. Isn't Audyssey just going to do its thing regardless?

counsil

05-18-09, 10:13 PM

lalakersfan34

05-19-09, 12:12 AM

Fanaticalism

05-19-09, 12:41 AM

I'd sure expect dual F113's to be awesome in a 1200 cubic foot room! It must have been incredible in there :D. I'm looking forward to any updates you have for us in the future once you've been able to listen with your own material.

Same here. I have a single 112 in a 1700 cubic foot room, that is open to the rest of the house, but it shakes everything pretty good, including the couch.

I think I may be adding the second sub sooner, rather than later though. I probably do not even need it, but then again, since when do we buy equipment we actually need. :p

oddeofile

05-20-09, 06:41 PM

Same here. I have a single 112 in a 1700 cubic foot room, that is open to the rest of the house, but it shakes everything pretty good, including the couch.

I think I may be adding the second sub sooner, rather than later though. I probably do not even need it, but then again, since when do we buy equipment we actually need. :p

Just got my second F113 set up this last weekend. Holy Cow. JL is right about stereo subs and the difference. I thought my single F113 was fabulous. Now, its simply beyond my wildest expectations.

I had to reset my sub levels on the surround processor to keep from overwhelming the main system. It is now set to -3 dB otherwise its poof - no more walls. :D

I also had to reset my bass crossover settings from large on my main front L/R and surround L/R speakers to small and cross all over to the JL's below 80 hz for movies and 50 hz for music or the bottom end was simply over powering. Nice to have, though. I like the idea of the no-holds-barred possibility of some jerk wanting to "stereo war" with me. No contest!

BTW - the walls in my room at times are pressurized to the point I feel like they'll buckle as well as my floor. If I end up on the first floor I will be dead... either from the obvious or my fiance' killing me for destroying her prized dining and living room furniture. :eek:

Lets just also say that on some of the movie sound tracks I have also had to set my processor to compress the dynamic swings to the middle range to keep the DTS MA and Dolby Digital HD uncompressed dynamics from blowing my room and neigbors, down the block. Lots of fun and HUGE smiles :D but a bummer with the S.O. So... life with unconstricted digital and two JL's. I guess you call that the Good, Bad, and well UGLY with having to compress.

craig john

05-20-09, 07:48 PM

Just got my second F113 set up this last weekend. Holy Cow. JL is right about stereo subs and the difference.
Are you running them in "stereo" or in "dual-mono"?

I had to reset my sub levels on the surround processor to keep from overwhelming the main system. It is now set to -3 dB otherwise its poof - no more walls. :D

I also had to reset my bass crossover settings from large on my main front L/R and surround L/R speakers to small and cross all over to the JL's below 80 hz for movies and 50 hz for music or the bottom end was simply over powering.
If you're running them in "stereo", (i.e., one sub hooked up to the left channel and one sub hooked to the right channel, then you want to set the L/R channels to "Large" or "Full Range". OTOH, if you're running dual mono, either with a "Y" cable or in Master/Slave mode, you want to use the crossovers in your Bass Management.

Lets just also say that on some of the movie sound tracks I have also had to set my processor to compress the dynamic swings to the middle range to keep the DTS MA and Dolby Digital HD uncompressed dynamics from blowing my room and neigbors, down the block.
Is your system calibrated? If so, you shouldn't need DRC.

Craig

Esox50

05-20-09, 09:05 PM

oddeofile, I know what you mean. Having these subs truly is crazy. But it always brings a smile to my face.

oddeofile

05-21-09, 10:23 AM

oddeofile, I know what you mean. Having these subs truly is crazy. But it always brings a smile to my face.

Me, too. For the first time in as long as I can remember being in this crazy hobby, in fact. These have literally changed my mind on bass performance and the requirement for a system to fully reproduce the bottom octave faithfully. I always sort of poo-poo'ed that fact and now feel totally different.

I smile every time my system is on.

Oh, by the way, how do you guys keep your sub's power settings set? On, triggered or turn them on only when you turn on your system? I tried the trigger setting and it did not seem to work well. In speaking with my dealer about it, he mentioned to leave them on all the time. They draw very little juice just idling anyway and they are always warmed up and ready to go when I call upon them to do their duty.

oddeofile

05-21-09, 10:32 AM

Are you running them in "stereo" or in "dual-mono"?

I have stereo sub outputs off my receiver/processor.

If you're running them in "stereo", (i.e., one sub hooked up to the left channel and one sub hooked to the right channel, then you want to set the L/R channels to "Large" or "Full Range". OTOH, if you're running dual mono, either with a "Y" cable or in Master/Slave mode, you want to use the crossovers in your Bass Management.

Correct. I use 80 hz normal and 50 hz for music, typically, but not always the case.

Is your system calibrated? If so, you shouldn't need DRC.

This is simply a matter of taste. Calibrating does nothing per se to limit dynamic swings. In fact, my system is more dynamic without MCACC or any type of system processing. Which, as a purist, is the way I prefer it. I did not care particularly for the sonic result after setting the room correction circuitry. To me, a minimalist, it just adds another superfluous level of processing to the musical presentation. While others disagree vehemently, and that is fine of course, I must say that I use the least amount of processing settings possible, always. That being said, recent changes in my system to update for the newest digital processing such as DTS-MA and Dolby Digital HD have resulted in dynamic contrasts that are extraordinarily wide creating "isssues" with the S.O. I live with and neighbors. For me, it brings smiles of joy listening to these two subs do incredible dynamic magic. Further, adding two fathoms to the system in and of themselves increases dynamic slam. Coupled together, they easily can scare the daylights out of one if they are not prepared for them. The matter of fact here is to keep my S.O. happy and my neighbors from lynching me, I have to set my DRC to middle range compression most of the time. Otherwise, I risk losing.... a lot. I run no compression only when 1. my S.O. is away and 2. when my neighbors are not at home or outside doing something else. :(

Craig

I trust this is a bit more explanatory.

adidino

05-21-09, 10:32 AM

Oh, by the way, how do you guys keep your sub's power settings set? On, triggered or turn them on only when you turn on your system? I tried the trigger setting and it did not seem to work well. In speaking with my dealer about it, he mentioned to leave them on all the time. They draw very little juice just idling anyway and they are always warmed up and ready to go when I call upon them to do their duty.

I use trigger. Try putting a Y cable from the mono cable to the left/right in on the sub. Increases the voltage so the trigger works much better.

craig john

05-21-09, 10:51 AM

I have stereo sub outputs off my receiver/processor.
Do you have "stereo" outputs, or "dual-mono" outputs? IOW, is one output the bass from the left channel and the other output the bass from the right channel, (in which case they would not be the same signal), or are both outputs the exact same signal, (which would be the LFE channel plus any re-directed bass from the channels with crossovers)?

This is important because, if they are actually "stereo" outputs, and you have the subs connected so that the left sub is outputting the bass from the left channel, and the right sub is outputting the bass from the right channel, then you want to setup your Bass Management as having "No Subwoofer" so that the LFE channel gets re-directed to the Left/Right channels where your subwoofers are located. Otherwise, you are not getting the LFE channel at all.

Craig

oddeofile

05-21-09, 11:13 AM

Do you have "stereo" outputs, or "dual-mono" outputs? IOW, is one output the bass from the left channel and the other output the bass from the right channel, (in which case they would not be the same signal), or are both outputs the exact same signal, (which would be the LFE channel plus any re-directed bass from the channels with crossovers)?

Craig, I believe this is the case being the latter set up, if I recall. I know for certain I am getting the LFE channel... In spades.

This is important because, if they are actually "stereo" outputs, and you have the subs connected so that the left sub is outputting the bass from the left channel, and the right sub is outputting the bass from the right channel, then you want to setup your Bass Management as having "No Subwoofer" so that the LFE channel gets re-directed to the Left/Right channels where your subwoofers are located. Otherwise, you are not getting the LFE channel at all.

Craig

Craig, see above.

Djoel

05-21-09, 03:59 PM

adidino

05-21-09, 04:03 PM

adidino

05-21-09, 04:06 PM

Craig,

That will depend on the receiver or proc. Most will allow you to configure your speakers as "large" with a subwoofer which will send the fill signal (including LFE) to the mains and the sub(s) but that would require stereo subs + and sub connected to the "sub out" from the proc/receiver.

Do you have "stereo" outputs, or "dual-mono" outputs? IOW, is one output the bass from the left channel and the other output the bass from the right channel, (in which case they would not be the same signal), or are both outputs the exact same signal, (which would be the LFE channel plus any re-directed bass from the channels with crossovers)?

This is important because, if they are actually "stereo" outputs, and you have the subs connected so that the left sub is outputting the bass from the left channel, and the right sub is outputting the bass from the right channel, then you want to setup your Bass Management as having "No Subwoofer" so that the LFE channel gets re-directed to the Left/Right channels where your subwoofers are located. Otherwise, you are not getting the LFE channel at all.

Craig

oddeofile

05-21-09, 04:23 PM

Did I mention how much I hate you guys wit-cha two F113, and your crumbling wall, and hopping couches, and your pissed off neighbors calling the police. HATE HATE HATE every single one of you!:D

Djoel

I know... I would hate me too. I hated those that had two as well before I got so mad I went out and bought the second one. See what anger gets you??!!!

I use my subs to blow my creditors off my doorstep. :D

Just kidding but it sure would be fun!

craig john

05-21-09, 05:10 PM

Esox50

05-21-09, 08:57 PM

Did I mention how much I hate you guys wit-cha two F113, and your crumbling wall, and hopping couches, and your pissed off neighbors calling the police. HATE HATE HATE every single one of you!:D

Djoel
For the record, I have two F112's. It's insane and total overkill. I really couldn't justify 2 F113's, but I knew I wanted two subs. These subs/F112's aren't even breaking a sweat as is. I cannot imagine what the F112s are capable of maxed out, much less 2 F113's.

It's over the top. I love it. :D

Jose

05-22-09, 01:32 AM

ballenone

05-22-09, 04:21 AM

For the record, I have two F112's. It's insane and total overkill. I really couldn't justify 2 F113's, but I knew I wanted two subs. These subs/F112's aren't even breaking a sweat as is. I cannot imagine what the F112s are capable of maxed out, much less 2 F113's.

It's over the top. I love it. :D

if thats over the top think of how you guys are making me feel :D

and to think i bought this hoping to get a second one but i already need oh s*** handles bolted to the wall but i guess if i get the second one ill just install steel rails and some belt straps for people to hold on :D

hope you dont start hating me :)
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss62/ballenone/10022009008.jpg

oddeofile

05-22-09, 11:43 AM

if thats over the top think of how you guys are making me feel :D

and to think i bought this hoping to get a second one but i already need oh s*** handles bolted to the wall but i guess if i get the second one ill just install steel rails and some belt straps for people to hold on :D

hope you dont start hating me :)
http://i562.photobucket.com/albums/ss62/ballenone/10022009008.jpg

No hating... just Gotham envy. Actually, I considered one Gotham instead of two F113's and decided against it. The Gotham is the God of Subwoofers. The problem is, she demands a lot of room, is heavier than H-E-L-L and would not have fit in any of my possible sub parameters. Cost factor was another reason. Just my limitations.

However, IF you have the room, space, room-size and need, the Gotham will kill everything, including insects that happen to cross in front of it at the wrong time... :D

TAS review of the Gotham gives the clue what she can do. All I know is, two F113's (basically, just about one Gotham) are all I can handle and then some in my space. The Gotham's immense weight would have tilted my second story floor on its side, I think. That is, if I even could have gotten here up there in the first place.

Djoel

05-22-09, 12:09 PM

For the record, I have two F112's. It's insane and total overkill. I really couldn't justify 2 F113's, but I knew I wanted two subs. These subs/F112's aren't even breaking a sweat as is. I cannot imagine what the F112s are capable of maxed out, much less 2 F113's.

It's over the top. I love it. :D

Yeah but I want that bass hug that every one is talking about:D

Oh and for the record I don't believe in overkill, at one time I was running power towers with 500 wpc mono:eek:

Djoel

counsil

05-22-09, 12:22 PM

oddeofile

05-22-09, 12:38 PM

If anyone is interested, my local dealer has a demo Gotham unit that he hasn't been able to move. I asked how much and the price was slightly over 50% off MSRP. They like to barter, so they will probably take another $500-$1000 off. PM me if you are interested and are willing to travel to Kansas City.

Awesome price for a Gotham! Too bad I can't travel that far to get one... but then again, I recall my earlier post now. Doggone it! No room, no space, Gotham too tall... rats.

Well, two F113's will just have to suffice. :cool:

oddeofile

05-22-09, 06:42 PM

I use trigger. Try putting a Y cable from the mono cable to the left/right in on the sub. Increases the voltage so the trigger works much better.

spoke with my dealer about this today. He is actually the technical expert for JL Audio. He says Y connecting the RCA's does really nothing except add 6 dB more voltage to the input of the sub. If you have any low level hum or hiss in your system it will trigger the circuit anyway. Besides, the sub will draw the same amount of watts - a paltry 11 watts either in the off, on or trigger position. Same amount so it makes little sense to worry about the Y connector. All you end up doing is reducing the sub settings another 6 dB due to the increased voltage input to the sub and the same wattage draw is involved.

Being the JL Audio technical expert for them corporately I think he should know.

So, I plan to just leave 'em on all the time and be prepared to enjoy unencumbered start ups without any hiccups.

mesojdm

05-22-09, 06:51 PM

I was originally going to get the SVS 13ultra(at the top of my budget) but I found out that I can get a F113 BNIB from a JL dealer for a little more then a SVS ultra. My question is, is the F113 THAT much better of a sub then SVS? I would have never paid retail, but this price point puts it within reach of the ultra. Its going in a medium sized room, 50%HT, 50%tv. What are your thoughts(people that own either one, or both) thanks!:D

adidino

05-22-09, 07:08 PM

I was originally going to get the SVS 13ultra(at the top of my budget) but I found out that I can get a F113 BNIB from a JL dealer for $CHEAP. My question is, is the F113 THAT much better of a sub then SVS? I would have never paid retail, but this price point puts it within reach of the ultra. Its going in a medium sized room, 50%HT, 50%tv. What are your thoughts(people that own either one, or both) thanks!:D

You shouldn't post what you are paying. Against forum rules.. it will get deleted anyway.

mesojdm

05-22-09, 07:40 PM

adidino

05-22-09, 07:44 PM

^thanks adidno..I revised my post.(please do the same to yours:)) I didnt mean to put a price, just wondering since it was close to the ultra in price if it would make a THAT much of a difference in spending the extra $ for a f113.

F113 for sure... Ultra is a good sub but if they price you were quoted is in your budget, it's a no brainer.

BladeRnR

05-23-09, 09:46 AM

msmith_JL

05-23-09, 05:30 PM

I've recently incorporated an SBS AS-EQ1 into my system and want to permanently 'Defeat' the Fathom F113's ARO - is here a way to do this instead of having to hit the 'Defeat' button each time the Subwoofer is turned on?

I apologize if this has been asked before.

Blade

You should not have to re-engage the "Defeat" button every time you turn the Fathom on.... only if you disconnect main power.

BladeRnR

05-23-09, 09:24 PM

You should not have to re-engage the "Defeat" button every time you turn the Fathom on.... only if you disconnect main power.

Thanks Mr Smith for the reply. That makes sense because I turn everything off at the wall when the system is not in use.

Fantastic Subwoofer btw - I have received many comments about it during demo sessions.

Regards

Blade

BladeRnR

05-23-09, 09:29 PM

I've noticed a few people here asking about the SVS AS-EQ1. I purchased one recently and incorporated it into my system yesterday. Here's my review as it appears on the Australia DTVForum:

Gidday,

As promised here's my review of the SVS AS-EQ1. I have just finished some 4 hours of calibration and testing with both music and Movies (BD). I also finally implemented Audyssey on the Integra DHC-9.9 so now all channels are level matched to 75dB reference and have Audyssey Processing in place.

The Unit/Box

You've seen the box pictures and contents in other threads so I won't belabor the point here. Suffice it to say all cables have excellent length, the most important being the Audyssey Microphone itself which is some 6+ meters long. The unit ships in an outer shipping box and foam packed inner box. It could happily be dropped from several meters with no adverse effects. Whilst the AVS review suggested it wasn't that heavy a unit I'd have to disagree. For a Non-Processor Non-Amplification unit I find it very well built and @ around 5 kg's I wouldn't exactly class it as being light for what it does. The magnetic (detachable) facia plate is really innovative and nicely covers the 2 Power/System Status lights to the Left/Right of the unit. With the facia in place these lights are not at all distracting and offer a subtle but informative indication the unit is both on and doing what it was designed to do.

Setup & Calibration

I'd have to say the Software is just excellent. It holds your hand with breakout boxes explaining in detail what step you're up to and what each one is trying to achieve. If you read it all carefully you'll find it hard to make any mistakes. I installed it on Windows Vista (Boot Camp on a Macbook Pro). Once plugged into the USB Port the SVS was found without issue and Calibration could begin. In my case I used the Bypass Patch cable bypassing the Integra's own Audyssey for the Subwoofer channel and looping it back to the Integra so once complete the SVS Calibration could then utilize it's own processing. Once Integra Audyssey had completed (About 1 hour 8 positions) the SVS Calibration Microphone was then plugged in and measurement could begin. I chose not to level match the Satellites as I'd prefer to use a Radio Shack meter for that purpose. Thus I skipped straight to measuring the Subwoofer. I did however use the program to achieve reference level for the Subwoofer which is really accurate (Red you're out of bounds and Green you're in the 75dB sweet spot). You modify the Gain on your Subwoofer to achieve this (In the Fathom F13's case you must switch the Subwoofer from "Reference" to "Variable" for the Gain to be active).

I performed the whole task twice so I could remove any doubt the procedure (Or User) did not color the result. The initial graph upon completion of run #1 pretty much made my eyes pop out of my head. The Before/After graph will really appeal to those HT aficionados who need/have to know everything about why they are hearing what they are. Every room offers unique challenges as we all know and in my case I had a huge +10dB peak between 20Hz to 30Hz and after that it dropped off sharply from between 40Hz to 80Hz tapering off to 100Hz. Obviously both node problems (Peaks and troughs) combined for fairly horrible Bass response in my room which explained why I could find only one real "Sweet" spot in my room. I then performed the whole run again (Run #2).

Both runs were measured for a total of 16 positions within the listening area. I measured 2 rows of 4 positions @ both ear level and about 2 inches below that for the 'slouch in seat' factor. This is the recommended approach as stated in the procedure/manual. This took around 30 minutes. You can measure up 32 positions for a large room. The calibration sound the SVS uses is actually quite subtle so no huge booms or massive 10Hz pulses here to scare the crap out of you. This is in stark contract to the Fathom's own (Primitive by comparison) A.R.O parametric system which threatens to shake your house apart at every opportunity during calibration. Once completed you can "View results" in an HTML style document (And can be saved in several document formats). You can then either choose to temporarily upload the result to the SVS or Permanently do so if you're happy with the results. You then input the Distance & Trim settings presented to you by the SVS tests into your Pre/Pro (Feet or Meters it's your choice). This is not just physical distance but electrical delay as well. I could tell little difference between the 2 runs looking at the graphs which means both Mic position and background noise were perfect. Once saved to the SVS it's says "Thanks - Calibration complete" and you can unplug the Microphone.

I then Calibrated Reference levels for all speakers (Except the Subwoofer as it's performed already by the program) to be certain everything was correct.

Looking at the Before/After graphs is of course only half the story. It was time for the "Taste Test" and to fire up the ASi OPPO DV-983H for some SACD action and the Sony BDP-S5000ES for BD.

Listening Tests

I don't want to appear too over the top here but seriously....FMD. Before calibration the Bass was boomy and bloated due to room acoustics (Or lack thereof), standing waves and node issues. It's like somebody had rearranged the room while I was out shopping or something and had installed a raft of expensive acoustic treatments. The Bass is now there - everywhere - but has a distinct "Evenness" that no amount of Fathom A.R.O or physical movement of the Subwoofer could achieve. In food terms the Bass is now as rich as a good Tiramasu. The Bass no longer tries to push itself to the front of the frequency range queue. It's like a 7 foot tall bouncer who's cool, calm and collected (And polite) who knows what he's capable of but prefers to deal with a situation with due respect. No matter where I stood in the room the Bass response is the same. The Bouncer was there, casting his careful eye across the crowd, only intervening when and if he had to.

Now for the true test - Movies on BD.

Transformers - As anyone would know this is a benchmark BD. At the time of testing the missus came home and sat next to me. She knows the soundtrack well and always commented how the Bass was "Overpowering". Not anymore. There was that even distribution of Bass again - right across the room. Midrange and Treble are hugely improved as the Bass is now perfectly controlled and those ugly Peaks are now gone. Had somebody installed a new Subwoofer while I was away? Was I in a different room? Nope. I could not believe what the SVS AS-EQ1 had done for room response. I simply cannot locate the subwoofer eyes open or closed - that to me is just pure heaven yet the Slam and Subtle Bass harmonics (Now clearly discernible) hadn't gone anywhere. There's a great scene that is a really difficult Subwoofer test. Just as Bumblebee kicks away the last 2 cars and fires off his last 2 rounds whilst being towed by Megan Fox there's a massive Bass moment which I'm sure reaches down toward 15Hz if not less. I had never heard this properly until now and it was a real eyebrow raiser. Wow!

I also tested Dark Knight, Cars, Master & Commander & Wanted. No change - the Bass was there as the supporting cast, the gestalt upon which all great HT sound rests but no longer drawing attention to itself. I soon forgot about the Bass aspect of the system and just started to enjoy the sound as ONE entity instead of 5.1. The AS-EQ1 had done it's job and how. Where have you been all these years? Where were you in 1992? The room is now completely energized with Bass but it's now everywhere and includes "Degrees" of Bass which I have not heard except in dedicated rooms and real cinemas. Even the missus was mesmerized and said "What have you done - that sounds amazing?". That's coming from a non-Audiophile.

Conclusion

The SVS AS-EQ1 is a no-brainer. If you're sick of concentrating on your Bass wondering how to improve it instead of enjoying the movie you need this unit. If you're sick of everything in the house shaking even when it's not supposed to you need this unit. For $1400:00AUD the SVS AS-EQ1 will save you a lot of mucking around and outlay on room acoustics which of course are not always (rarely) WAF ready. Sound-wise I am absolutely wrapped with my system. The Paradigm's are now singing, The Fathom is not being run hot (It's the porridge that Goldilocks found "Just right") it's there doing its job but now being beautifully controlled. Sure there's the Velodyne SMS-1 which gives the user a chance to tweak themselves to the nth degree but seriously do you want to tweak or calibrate once/twice and crack a beer and kick back to enjoy your system? I can only say adding a second Subwoofer would improve the situation even further but as it stands I could never go back to a system that didn't have this thing installed. There's a lot of Snake Oil solutions out there for HT - this isn't one of them.

Buy one

Cheers

Blade

nauc

05-24-09, 01:07 PM

JL makes nices drivers, but the W7 is no XXX

http://www.woofersetc.com/images/products/4920.jpg

;)

Fanaticalism

05-24-09, 07:41 PM

JL makes nices drivers, but the W7 is no XXX

http://www.woofersetc.com/images/products/4920.jpg

;)

Other than the fact that you probably own the XXX, your contribution to this thread is what again?

kutlow

05-24-09, 11:47 PM

Other than the fact that you probably own the XXX, your contribution to this thread is what again?

where did this guy come from? lol PITTYFUL

Djoel

05-25-09, 10:52 AM

Spam!

Warpdrv

05-25-09, 11:48 AM

JL makes nices drivers, but the W7 is no XXX

http://www.woofersetc.com/images/products/4920.jpg

;)

Totally out of place here bro.... but I will have to agree....
I totally love my F112 and my 3 - 18" DIY's + 1 15" DIY.... I had a pretty large subwoofer shootout with both commercial and DIY - the XXX was there as well as an LMS-5400. Both those subs are absolutely unreal in terms of extremely clean SQ and OMG the output... :eek:

adidino

05-25-09, 11:53 AM

Spam!

+1 for sure that was a spam post. Hopefully, the mods will delete it.

nauc

05-26-09, 03:30 AM

spam?

lol

go over to.... http://caraudioforum.com/index.php?

i have over 9,000 posts over there, everyone knows i have nothin to do with RE

:p

Warpdrv

05-26-09, 08:07 AM

spam?

lol

go over to.... http://caraudioforum.com/index.php?

i have over 9,000 posts over there, everyone knows i have nothin to do with RE

:p

Its just not an appropriate place to post about a raw driver in the commercial sub forum, Join us over in the DIY section for building earth shattering subs, your more then welcome here...

adidino

05-26-09, 08:19 AM

spam?

lol

go over to.... http://caraudioforum.com/index.php?

i have over 9,000 posts over there, everyone knows i have nothin to do with RE

:p

9,000 posts? Then you are an expert in audio forums.. you should know better than to post a pic of a cheese doodle sub driver in this thread.... :)

craig john

05-26-09, 08:49 AM

spam?

lol

go over to.... http://caraudioforum.com/index.php?

i have over 9,000 posts over there, everyone knows i have nothin to do with RE

:pThis is not the Car Audio Forum. This is the JL Audio F113 thread in the *HOME* Audio Forum. Surely a forum expert such as yourself could figure that out?

You were looking for this:
Car Audio, Video and Nav Forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?s=&daysprune=30&f=160)

:rolleyes:

Craig

orologio

05-26-09, 01:39 PM

Sharp1080

05-26-09, 02:20 PM

I have two f113 and I am enjoing them a lot. However my question is more general than specific to JL: is it true that adding a third sub could be detrimental to the sound? I was reading elsewhere in an article that seemed well written to me, that the number of subs should be even (2,4...) never odd (3).
I do have a third high quality ported sub installed that is completely different than the f113. I realize now why the sound with three subs is not as detailed and dynamic as with dual f113 alone.
Any thoughts?

What article? Do you have a link to it? If that is the case why does the JL manual show recomended placing positions for 2,3,and 4 sub set up procedures in a room? It might have to do where the "ported" subwoofer has been placed in your room?

orologio

05-26-09, 03:55 PM

What article? Do you have a link to it? If that is the case why does the JL manual show recomended placing positions for 2,3,and 4 sub set up procedures in a room? It might have to do where the "ported" subwoofer has been placed in your room?

here is the LINK (http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=48286)

It might have to do with the fact that the third sub is made of different nature, but i wonder if there is any truth in the even vs odd number. I am a little skeptical about that theory also because manufactures that produce hi-end processors like Denon, are implementing a 3 sub configuration.

craig john

05-26-09, 04:47 PM

Here is the original white paper that "Big Daddy" references:
http://www.harman.com/wp/pdf/multsubs.pdf
Nowhere in that paper does Todd Welti state that an even number of subs is "better" than an odd number. His conclusion is that four subs, symmetrically placed, is the "best", and that two subs at the midwalls is almost as good.

Earl Geddes recommends a 3-subwoofer system:
http://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/
He also recommends mixing different types of subs, sealed and ported. He uses one sub as the LFE sub placed up front in a corner. Then he adds mid-bass subs at other points throughout the room.

He had this to say about Welti's work:
There are differences in Welti's approach and mine. But the basic fact is that Welti only tried symmetrical placements, not random and I tried both. He recommends four as optimal, I recommned three, but in different setups. Its also true that Welti's modeled room was ideal - no doors or furniture, perfectly rigid walls, etc. and this is never the case in the real world. So how do you do Welti's recommendation? Well you can't really and it ends up being basically random anyways.

And I agree that I wouldn't bother to model the room if I were going to use measurements in the end to set it all up. I never worry about "where" the modes are, I'll find these soon enough when I measure the setup. And then I know exactly where they are.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=134568&perpage=25&pagenumber=2

Carl Kennedy of JL Audio recommends multiple subs placed up front:
One last point; remember that having multiple subwoofer locations throughout the room will be more difficult to “time-align” (adjust phase) than keeping all sub locations in the front of the room. With all subs located on the front plane of the room, the energy passes through the room from front to back and crosses each seating location at the same relative time before impacting the back wall. Front subs also give you the greatest freedom with regard to crossover frequency in the event that you wish to choose a crossover point between 80 and 125Hz.
http://theprofessionalanswer.com/?p=20

Bottom line, there are many ways to skin the cat, and none of these are hard and fast rules, just generalizations that *can* work in some rooms. In your situation, you probably need some measuring equipment to optimize your system. Then work with placement, and setting levels and phase to get the flattest response over the most seats.

Your ported sub... is the tune point lower than the F113's -3 dB point? If so, Geddes's approach may have some merit for you. Use it as the LFE sub, and then use the F113's as the mid-bass subs. Just a thought.

Craig

orologio

05-26-09, 09:21 PM

Esox50

05-26-09, 09:48 PM

I agree. 3 subs is a bad idea...just get 4. :D

Seriously, I don't see why it would make a difference. I have my two F112s up front and they are beyond awesome to me.

craig john

05-26-09, 10:47 PM

Craig,
That's all very interesting, thank you.
I tought it was strange that there was no elaboration of that theory as opposed to anything else in that page.
The third sub in question is a REL stentor III and I don't know the port's tuning point so I can't say about that but it can have something to do with it as I mesured a steep roll off at 25hz.
I can't find much on that sub either, but it appears to be a 10" driver with a 300 watt amp in a ported box. No matter what the manufacturer's specs say, (-6 dB @11 Hz :eek:), I would be more expecting of a "steep rolloff at 25 Hz". If that's the case, you don't want to use it as the LFE-dedicated sub. In fact, you may not want to use it at all with your F113's.

Please note that my system is calibrated with audyssey pro along Denon a1hdci processor.
Also I admit that my room is not helping: over 4000 cf and not considering open spaces.
The fact is that whenever the third sub is on, tried two different placements, I get a considerable reduction in impact and details at my listening position.
Are you re-running Audyssey when you add the 3rd sub? If not, you *need* to do so. I realize that adjusting an Audyssey Pro installation requires getting the installer back out to re-measure and re-optimize the system, but you can't expect an EQ curve calculated on 2 subs to be appropriate for
3 subs, especially if they're radically dissimilar subs.

Craig

orologio

05-26-09, 10:51 PM

I agree. 3 subs is a bad idea...just get 4. :D

Seriously, I don't see why it would make a difference. I have my two F112s up front and they are beyond awesome to me.

I am not arguing about the capabilities of the f113s. They may be my last buy for a long time anyway. I just had a third sub available and I thought that I might have had some use out of it, that's all.

Sharp1080

05-27-09, 01:34 AM

I am not arguing about the capabilities of the f113s. They may be my last buy for a long time anyway. I just had a third sub available and I thought that I might have had some use out of it, that's all.

I swear I was going to ask you if it was a REL! What I mean is I had a Stentor III also and tried to run it with my JL 113's in my 20x15 room right before I boxed it up and sold it! I had the same problem. The REL is actually a "music only" sub more so than an actual HT sub no matter what they may say in the literature. Push it too hard and you'll see what happens. I couldn't even get it to match the Fathom in terms of output. Great subs for music but using it for HT is not what they are really designed for in today's market comparatively speaking and not just against JL Audio.

nauc

05-27-09, 11:34 PM

Its just not an appropriate place to post about a raw driver in the commercial sub forum, Join us over in the DIY section for building earth shattering subs, your more then welcome here...

alright, alright, ill quit peeing in everyones tea

it sometimes hard to help myself tho. see, if you stir things up, you can learn some good stuff sometimes from the defenders of truth

now, back to the Fathom!

:D

counsil

05-28-09, 12:58 AM

Since I was in the area, I thought I would stop by the closet JL Audio dealer around my area. I was pleased to hear that they had dual F113s in their high-end demo room. The room was awesome. They had all kinds of cool toys in there. I wanted to ask more about it all, but I didn't have the time.

Anyway, since I didn't bring my normal demo material (WOTW, Pulse, Finding Nemo, etc) with me, I watched the lightening and shotgun scenes in Ratatouille since they had it playing.

All I can say is wow. I wish I had my SPL meter with me because those shotgun scenes were impressive. I don't own the movie myself, but man, those F113s really hit me hard in the chest. The couch shook so violently I asked if they had buttkickers connected to them (which they didn't).

I own dual SVS PB13 Ultras so I am not easily impressed. I know most of the reason why the JLs sounded so good was because they had them in a treated, ~1200 cubic foot sealed room. My basement is ~6400 cubic foot non-sealed room so I can't really compare the JLs to my Ultras.

If I ever go back, I will bring my demo material and SPL meter. I'll report back my impressions.

I received Ratatouille on blu-ray from Amazon today. I listened to the shotgun and lightening scenes with my dual Ultras in my ~6400 cubic ft basement. I experienced the same slam in the chest and couch shaking feelings as I did with the F113s. I was easily able to take the scenes to reference with no problems. So far in experience, the F113 is right on par with the SVS PB13 Ultra (or vise versa, however you want to look at it). Both subs are awesome. At this point I'm not partial to either one.

Hopefully I will have some time in the near future to demo some more stuff on the F113s as to compare them a little better with my dual Ultras. I know I'll never be able to accurately compare the two subs because they are in totally different rooms, but I'm not going to let that keep me from having a little fun. I'll keep you guys posted.

mesojdm

05-28-09, 01:20 AM

dmichael

05-28-09, 09:59 AM

Warpdrv

05-28-09, 12:33 PM

okay, i'm in a pickle
2 f110 or 1 f113?
pros? cons? I love symmetry(dual 110's up front) but will I get more or less output with one 113. I know the 113 will play louder lower, but hwo will it compare higher up?
thanks

If you are at all thinking about using your sub/s for HT, I would look elsewhere then the F110's, they don't have particularly great output below 25hz. Dual F112's would be more appropriate for that task, but the F113 will lead the F112 by a small margin in output down low and a little better SPL. Both the F112 and F113 will be better for output into the teens where more and more movies are putting out alot of material these days. For a strictly music setup, the F110's could be great depending on material and other equipment. The F110's and F112's have a bit better advantage for upper bass over the F113's but not by much, they are all just fantastic products.

As dmichael questioned, what is the size of your room, what are you looking to use the subs for % of Music/Movies ?
Associated equipment involved ?

mesojdm

05-28-09, 08:49 PM

^ medium sized room ~15X20. I don't listen to music that much. it will mostly be used for movies and watching TV. I think one f113 is more geared for what I am looking for(like you said, will play louder in the lower hz) which will make my movies come to life!:D

Fanaticalism

05-28-09, 10:29 PM

dmichael

05-29-09, 12:46 PM

The way prices are right now, I would opt for 2 112's. :D

This is what I just did. I have 1 f110 in a 16x19 room with 18' cieling right now, but I just ordered 2 f112's. I'll move my f110 to my music room which is small and has normal height cielings. The f110 works great in the small room, but the larger room swallows it whole. Doesn't help that the sub(s) in my larger room have to fire directly into a huge opening into the kitchen.

time to build that theater room in the basement...
... move all the good audio stuff down there.

I should see better results with 2 f112's but I really don't think a pair of any fathoms models will knock me back in my chair with the challenge my large room presents.

If you have a small room with 8' or less cielings and its all closed up, the f110 is amazing. This is my first ever experience with subs and I learned pretty fast that the room has a lot to say about how much thump you get.

oddeofile

05-29-09, 04:36 PM

This is what I just did. I have 1 f110 in a 16x19 room with 18' cieling right now, but I just ordered 2 f112's. I'll move my f110 to my music room which is small and has normal height cielings. The f110 works great in the small room, but the larger room swallows it whole. Doesn't help that the sub(s) in my larger room have to fire directly into a huge opening into the kitchen.

time to build that theater room in the basement...
... move all the good audio stuff down there.

I should see better results with 2 f112's but I really don't think a pair of any fathoms models will knock me back in my chair with the challenge my large room presents.

If you have a small room with 8' or less cielings and its all closed up, the f110 is amazing. This is my first ever experience with subs and I learned pretty fast that the room has a lot to say about how much thump you get.

As someone who has two F113's in a room very similar to yours with an open end which is open down our stairs (large 2/3 of the total side of the room) stairwell to the first floor, believe me, you will be moved alright. I think my F113's relocated my address a few house numbers down the block on a couple movie tracks last week. And, I live on the end unit of a 4 unit townhouse building. I don't think my neighbors appreciated having to apply for new addresses with the post office.

The immense output, peak to peak woofer travel and depth these subs can go to will relocate more than your couch and house. I had surgery last week to put my guts back in their rightful places.

I have never been so scared to death of the immense dynamic slam capabilities of a woofer anywhere near this size in my life. Coupled not only with immense output capability, it is their artful faithfulness to the tonality of an instrument, transient speed accuracy and well, "rightness" to the bass frequencies that has me all bundled up in joy. TAS and TPV were right on in their reviews of the Fathom subs.

I see why more each day TAS Robert Harley was so taken with these. There is nothing you can throw at them that will overwhelm these, unless you like your eardrums blown out.

Enjoy!

mesojdm

05-29-09, 10:00 PM

^ right on!!!
Pulling the trigger on a 113. I figure I can get accustomed to one, then later(when the budget allows) add another to have dual 113's like some of you lucky dogs!

adidino

05-29-09, 10:48 PM

giomania

05-30-09, 09:37 AM

Sharp1080

05-30-09, 01:21 PM

I notice pics on this thread and several other threads that most dual sub owners place both subs up front by their main speakers (myself included). I can't help but think that symmetry more than optimum placement is the motivation. From all the study material posted on this thread, it appears dual subs should be placed on opposite walls and in opposite corners for to achieve optimum results.

Am I correct in assuming this? :)

No Adidino, never assume. :D It's all room dependent. In the JL manual that nobody on here seems to read all the way thru has the different setup locations to experiment with. I ended up like you with both subs along the front wall slightly behind the mains but still not against the corners. It's easier to setup the subs for me with a music track with either acoustic or electric bass playing over and over that alows me to adjust the subs crossover slope if needed and placing them near the corners for reinforcement but yet not too close to cause boomy/bloated bass. Out of all of the subwoofers I've owned I have to say these have been the easiest to setup. If it sounds good with music playing it will sound good with explosions and gunshots.

adidino

05-30-09, 03:47 PM

orologio

05-31-09, 11:13 AM

In my L shaped room I have two f113, next to the main speakers. One of them, however was by the corner and the other along the center- front wall.
Mine is not and can't be a symmetrical setup. I have had that for few months and I liked the result. But wneh I moved the sub away from the very corner to the other side of the speaker I get now what I like the best, with an even more defined and balanced bass.
My point is that in my room the subs away from the corner produce a better bass responce. In fact, now on test tones I can barely distinguish the sound from the two subs unlike before with the one Sub right in the corner the test tone sounded very different with ghe other, even with audyssey pro equalizer in the system.
...2cents...

kutlow

05-31-09, 06:41 PM

I've read that manual several times.. The setup locations they include in the manual are very basic. I guess I'm just noticing an overwhelming amount of pics with both subs up front. It's unlikely that they are all optimally placed. As I mentioned earlier, I think symmetry was more the deciding factor for it's location rather than experimentation for best results in most cases. IMO that is.. :)

If you have the room I think it is best placed behind the fronts 4'' from both walls. In my case I have to put mine in between the front and center channel. I only have one so far but plan on getting a second after i flip more stock. :D

mmiles

06-01-09, 12:07 PM

flip flip flip

Alex solomon

06-01-09, 08:17 PM

Lately, bass output from my JL has been steadily getting weaker and weaker by the day and sometimes no bass at all. I tried three different cables from cheap ones to more expensive ones and that didn't solve the issue. Then I thought the cause might be the my Onkyo receiver sending weak signal so I used this as an excuse to buy a new pre/pre. I have not hooked up the new processor yet but today I hooked up a cheap Sony sub the the bass was all there. Is this an amp issue form the sub? Is there any way to test if the amp is functioning OK? I had the sub for close to two years now.

BTW, I played around with gain and trim/sub level but that didn't help either. Any other ideas?

Sharp1080

06-01-09, 08:25 PM

Alex solomon

06-01-09, 09:47 PM

Possible short at the RCA subwoofer connection on the Onkyo? Did you check the subwoofer settings on the Onkyo to confirm they were the same as before?

Settings are the same as before. Besides, no problem with another sub I tried albeit only tried once. Gain on the sub is at 9 o'clock and trim/level at prepro is @ 0.0 I will hook up the new processor this weekend.

KyleLee

06-01-09, 09:50 PM

If you are at all thinking about using your sub/s for HT, I would look elsewhere then the F110's, they don't have particularly great output below 25hz. Dual F112's would be more appropriate for that task, but the F113 will lead the F112 by a small margin in output down low and a little better SPL. Both the F112 and F113 will be better for output into the teens where more and more movies are putting out alot of material these days. For a strictly music setup, the F110's could be great depending on material and other equipment. The F110's and F112's have a bit better advantage for upper bass over the F113's but not by much, they are all just fantastic products.

As dmichael questioned, what is the size of your room, what are you looking to use the subs for % of Music/Movies ?
Associated equipment involved ?

F113 - more power higher sensitivity - it should measure the best for not just upper bass but lower bass.
AVS CLUB MEMBER'S should especially know better ;)

kutlow

06-01-09, 11:27 PM

flip flip flip

Yeah like a dummy I bought BAC (Bank of America) @ 13.65 after I watched it sail from the low 3's. Now I am 2.00 underwater trying to avoid a short sell. :mad:

Fanaticalism

06-01-09, 11:41 PM

Yeah like a dummy I bought BAC (Bank of America) @ 13.65 after I watched it sail from the low 3's. Now I am 2.00 underwater trying to avoid a short sell. :mad:

They just reopened their wholesale division, we'll see what happens

PBunning

06-03-09, 09:57 AM

RMK!

06-03-09, 10:51 AM

Don't mean to hijack the thread, but has anyone used the SVS bass module with a pair (or one for that matter) of 113s?

I was thinking about getting a single 113 & then hoping to add a second later in the game.

THanks

Paul

If you are referring to the AS-EQ1, this (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=16517340&postcount=886) post goes into some detail.

mmiles

06-03-09, 10:51 AM

PB,

I am aware of many members here having good results with the Velodyne SMS-1 but no comments on the SVS processor. Maybe some will chime in or you can scan this HUGE thread in your spare time :D

With that said I'd let ARO [ built into the JL ] do its thing and see were you land.

mmiles

06-03-09, 11:01 AM

F113 - more power higher sensitivity - it should measure the best for not just upper bass but lower bass.
AVS CLUB MEMBER'S should especially know better ;)

A very very very basic rule of thumb for F112 vs F113 is what are the LCR speakers you are matching with. Smaller book shelf, floorstander or in-walls that don't dig so deep use the 112 with larger speakers that go lower [8"+ woofers stable down to say 35 - 60hz] go with the 113.

Let the flaming begin...

PBunning

06-04-09, 11:08 AM

RMK, MM,

Thanks very much for the replies. Sounds like a promising concept to me.

yngdiego

06-15-09, 11:35 PM

Warpdrv

06-15-09, 11:41 PM

A very very very basic rule of thumb for F112 vs F113 is what are the LCR speakers you are matching with. Smaller book shelf, floorstander or in-walls that don't dig so deep use the 112 with larger speakers that go lower [8"+ woofers stable down to say 35 - 60hz] go with the 113.

Let the flaming begin...

I will agree with that.... no flaming here...

Fanaticalism

06-16-09, 12:56 PM

nathan_h

06-16-09, 01:11 PM

The F113 will make your ears bleed in that size of a room!

That's true.

However, there may be some other issue to be concerned with, because that SVS should have never bottomed out in a room that size.

mmiles

06-18-09, 10:08 PM

In a 1300 cu ft room nothing should bottom out. I suggest try different placement locations [ try to avoid a corner in almost square room ] and check to see how much you are pushing you LFE from the AVR or surround processor. In that size room you may want to "cut" [ omg did a poster say turn down ?? ] the gain.

Go to a local carpet store and buy some cheap area rugs [ pick them up for say under $75 ] roll them up rather tight and place them in the corners of the wall where the sub is located. Note again I do not mean to put the sub in the corner since this will load the room and produce a spike or node freq.

I think it is the room and not your SVS PBsub. But if your hell bent on getting a F112 or F113 [ to much wagon for the horse imho ] then a mans gotta do what a mans gotta do...;)

lalakersfan34

06-19-09, 12:18 AM

I'm looking at a F113 to replace my SVS PB-12 Plus. Found a new F113 for about double what I paid for my PB-12 Plus last year. For a 10x13x10 room I can't image the F113 would be inadequate. I'm tired of my PB-12 bottoming out during very loud movies.

Unlike some of the others here I can understand where you're coming from. My setup is in a ~950 cubic foot room and while I haven't used the PB12-Plus I have had subwoofers many people thought would be overkill end up not having the output capabilities I desire. I previously had two SVS PB10-NSD's in my room and while they didn't bottom out (their limiters prevent this) I was able to reach their limits and hit heavy compression when listening at high levels (around -5 from reference or louder). I've been told that dual stacked PB10's actually have more output than the PB12-Plus in all but the deepest bass, so I can understand how you might be running into problems.

I don't want to dismiss the possibility that your room is influencing your problems. If you're sitting right smack in the middle of the room you're likely in a huge bass null which would cause the PB12-Plus to bottom out more easily to achieve your desired output levels. You might also try moving the subwoofer around if you have that option. However, I think there's a real possibility you need more subwoofer than you currently have.

I upgraded from two PB10-NSD's to an Epik Castle (now discontinued - but comparable to a PB13-Ultra) and have truly benefited from the upgrade. The extra output and refinement in SQ have been well worth it. People thought I was crazy to want to upgrade from two PB10's in such a small space but it was well worth it to me.

Out of curiosity, do you know what frequencies are causing it to bottom out? Is it struggling to keep up in midbass or is it the really deep stuff that brings it to its knees? Best of luck with everything.

kutlow

07-04-09, 09:22 AM

Has JL planned any updates to the F113 YET? Would a F115 sound good?:D

craig john

07-08-09, 10:19 PM

The thread's been dormant a few days, so let's kick it back up.

A few days ago, a friend and forum member, (pepar), brought over a demo unit of the SVS AS-EQ1. For those unfamiliar with this new device, it's an Audyssey-based EQ for the subwoofer channel only.
http://www.svsound.com/products-parts-subeq.cfm

It has twice the resolution of their Audyssey pro unit, and it's all focused on the subwoofer. It's forte' is EQ'ing multiple subs. It has 2 outputs and it EQ's each individually and then the pair together. pepar had installed it in his theater, which has 4 Hsu TN-1220 subs, running in a dual, co-located pair arrangement with a pair of Hsu amps driving them. He was very pleased with the results and so brought it here to try with my pair of F112's.

The first thing the AS-EQ1 does before it runs any EQ "pings" is to "level-match" the subs. Prior to the AS-EQ1, I had always run my F112 pair in Master/Slave arrangement, which I assumed was a "gain-matched" arrangement. In order to perform level-matching, the subs needed to be taken out of M/S and set to "Variable". Then the AS-EQ1 sends a noise signal to each sub independently, and we were to set the "Variable" level so that they both measured the same SPL at the primary listening position.

Surprisingly, we found that the left sub measured 17 dB higher than the right sub! :eek: That's right!!! 17 dB! Now, the left sub is fully corner loaded, so it should get maximum gain from the corner. The right sub is also in a corner, but the right wall only extends 4' into the room, and then it opens to a stairwell going up to the first floor. Therefore the right sub should not get as much room re-enforcement as the left sub... but 17 dB???

Anyway, we left it that way and went ahead with the AS-EQ1 routine. Afterward we did some listening and we decided that something was not right. The deep bass was bloated while the mid bass was anemic. It sounded awful. pepar took the AS-EQ1 home, mystified by the result, as was I.

Last night, he came back with his laptop and REW and we took some measurements of the subs. We found that the disparity in levels noted by AS-EQ1 was also measured by REW. So, to eliminate the possibility that corner gain/room acoustics was the culprit, we pulled the subs out to the middle of the room. First we measured the left sub with the mic 3" from the driver. Then we taped the outline of the sub on the floor, removed it and placed the right sub in the exact same position. The mic was never moved, so it was in the exact same position relative to the driver, (or as close as possible). (This type of measurement is the closest one can get *indoors* to measuring the true output of the sub with minimal influence of room acoustics on the measurement.)

We measured the levels with both subs set on "Reference". (According to the manual, Page 16, "When at the "0" or straight up position, the Variable Gain setting matches the Reference level setting.") All other settings were the same: ARO: Defeat, LPF:Off, E.L.F Trim:"0", Polarity:"0", Phase:"0".

The following are the two graphs we recorded:

Left sub:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=147444&d=1247175993

Right sub:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=147445&d=1247176002

Note the large difference in levels. We also measured the average SPL's with a noise signal. The left sub measured 102 .7 dB while the right sub measured 90.3 dB. What could cause such a disparity, (~12 dB), in the levels produced by the Reference level setting of 2 subs that should be exactly the same? BTW, this test was not possible in the Master/Slave mode because you can't run the Slave if the Master is turned off. Therefore, I can't tell if this problem persists with the M/S mode.

In addition, note the differences in the curves. The left sub is much less linear across the range. It's upper -3 dB point looks to be about 100Hz, and it looks to be down ~15 dB at 200 Hz. The right sub is virtually flat from ~23 Hz almost to 200 Hz, but it's overall level is about 12 dB lower than the left. Why are the responses so different? Which one is "right"? Is one of the subs defective?

I've PM'd Manville Smith. Hopefully he'll have an answer.

Craig

Edit: Weird, it appears that my attachments were removed for some reason. They are on my computer at home, so I'll try to fix the problem tonight whenI get home. :confused::confused::confused:

JimP

07-08-09, 10:49 PM

Craig,

Did you defeat the internal subs eq before testing? Both subs setup identically?

craig john

07-08-09, 11:12 PM

Craig,

Did you defeat the internal subs eq before testing? Both subs setup identically?
As I said:

"We measured the levels with both subs set on "Reference". (According to the manual, Page 16, "When at the "0" or straight up position, the Variable Gain setting matches the Reference level setting.") All other settings were the same: ARO: Defeat, LPF:Off, E.L.F Trim:"0", Polarity:"0", Phase:"0"."

Actually, when we initially measured the left sub, I had not defeated ARO. We saw a sharp, narrow dip at about 48 Hz that went away after defeating ARO. It was obviously the filter imposed by ARO. After finding that, I re-checked all the other settings to ensure they were the same.

Craig

getech

07-08-09, 11:22 PM

I hate to say it but sell the F112's and buy a more...how can I put this, manly sub, one that is cheaper better more output, better sq and just plain WOW factor. Try a pair of SVS PB13 Ultra's or perhaps an Elemental Design sub (any are good) but my god, the F112's:eek: Do your self a favor and get them on the 'gon and be gone with them.

Just my two cents but of course I'm right and you know it.

Cheers and enjoy!

The thread's been dormant a few days, so let's kick it back up.

A few days ago, a friend and forum member, (pepar), brought over a demo unit of the SVS AS-EQ1. For those unfamiliar with this new device, it's an Audyssey-based EQ for the subwoofer channel only.
http://www.svsound.com/products-parts-subeq.cfm

It has twice the resolution of their Audyssey pro unit, and it's all focused on the subwoofer. It's forte' is EQ'ing multiple subs. It has 2 outputs and it EQ's each individually and then the pair together. pepar had installed it in his theater, which has 4 Hsu TN-1220 subs, running in a dual, co-located pair arrangement with a pair of Hsu amps driving them. He was very pleased with the results and so brought it here to try with my pair of F112's.

The first thing the AS-EQ1 does before it runs any EQ "pings" is to "level-match" the subs. Prior to the AS-EQ1, I had always run my F112 pair in Master/Slave arrangement, which I assumed was a "gain-matched" arrangement. In order to perform level-matching, the subs needed to be taken out of M/S and set to "Variable". Then the AS-EQ1 sends a noise signal to each sub independently, and we were to set the "Variable" level so that they both measured the same SPL at the primary listening position.

Surprisingly, we found that the left sub measured 17 dB higher than the right sub! :eek: That's right!!! 17 dB! Now, the left sub is fully corner loaded, so it should get maximum gain from the corner. The right sub is also in a corner, but the right wall only extends 4' into the room, and then it opens to a stairwell going up to the first floor. Therefore the right sub should not get as much room re-enforcement as the left sub... but 17 dB???

Anyway, we left it that way and went ahead with the AS-EQ1 routine. Afterward we did some listening and we decided that something was not right. The deep bass was bloated while the mid bass was anemic. It sounded awful. pepar took the AS-EQ1 home, mystified by the result, as was I.

Last night, he came back with his laptop and REW and we took some measurements of the subs. We found that the disparity in levels noted by AS-EQ1 was also measured by REW. So, to eliminate the possibility that corner gain/room acoustics was the culprit, we pulled the subs out to the middle of the room. First we measured the left sub with the mic 3" from the driver. Then we taped the outline of the sub on the floor, removed it and placed the right sub in the exact same position. The mic was never moved, so it was in the exact same position relative to the driver, (or as close as possible). (This type of measurement is the closest one can get *indoors* to measuring the true output of the sub with minimal influence of room acoustics on the measurement.)

We measured the levels with both subs set on "Reference". (According to the manual, Page 16, "When at the "0" or straight up position, the Variable Gain setting matches the Reference level setting.") All other settings were the same: ARO: Defeat, LPF:Off, E.L.F Trim:"0", Polarity:"0", Phase:"0".

The following are the two graphs we recorded:

Left sub:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=147395&stc=1&d=1247103050

Right sub:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=147396&stc=1&d=1247103050

Note the large difference in levels. We also measured the average SPL's with a noise signal. The left sub measured 102 .7 dB while the right sub measured 90.3 dB. What could cause such a disparity, (~12 dB), in the levels produced by the Reference level setting of 2 subs that should be exactly the same? BTW, this test was not possible in the Master/Slave mode because you can't run the Slave if the Master is turned off. Therefore, I can't tell if this problem persists with the M/S mode.

In addition, note the differences in the curves. The left sub is much less linear across the range. It's upper -3 dB point looks to be about 100Hz, and it looks to be down ~15 dB at 200 Hz. The right sub is virtually flat from ~23 Hz almost to 200 Hz, but it's overall level is about 12 dB lower than the left. Why are the responses so different? Which one is "right"? Is one of the subs defective?

I've PM'd Manville Smith. Hopefully he'll have an answer.

Craig

otk

07-08-09, 11:31 PM

did you say "WOW" when JL pulled your dealership status ?

getech

07-09-09, 12:04 AM

ouch my friend and good luck :o

craig john

07-09-09, 12:25 AM

JimP

07-09-09, 01:22 AM

As I said:

"We measured the levels with both subs set on "Reference". (According to the manual, Page 16, "When at the "0" or straight up position, the Variable Gain setting matches the Reference level setting.") All other settings were the same: ARO: Defeat, LPF:Off, E.L.F Trim:"0", Polarity:"0", Phase:"0"."

Craig

Since there is a difference of 15dbs between level mode set to ref versus level mode set to variable and master level turned fully clockwise, one possibility is that your knobs and switches are somehow messed up. On the louder of the two subs, if you turn the master level knob, does it affect volume? Reading page 16, it sounds like the volume would be the same as long as level mode is set to reference. The other possibility is that the lower of the two has something blown in the amp section that causes it to run much lower than the other one.

As an alternative, why not set both subs to variable and adjust the master level knob till they output the same via an spl meter?

clubfoot

07-09-09, 10:32 AM

You may have been over driving the left sub due to the master/slave calibration and the right sub not being "equally" loaded. My guess is a damaged left sub.

craig john

07-09-09, 10:36 AM

You may have been over driving the left sub due to the master/slave calibration and the right sub not being "equally" loaded. My guess is a damaged left sub.
The left sub was the slave, but it never sounded like it was overdriven. In fact, the Master/Slave setup was the best sounding bass I've ever had in my room. Had I not tried the AS-EQ1, I never would have found this problem.

Craig

craig john

07-09-09, 10:49 AM

Since there is a difference of 15dbs between level mode set to ref versus level mode set to variable and master level turned fully clockwise, one possibility is that your knobs and switches are somehow messed up.
This is certainly a possibility. However, both subs have the same mechanical deflection clockwise and counterclockwise from the "0" or "straight up" point.

On the louder of the two subs, if you turn the master level knob, does it affect volume? Reading page 16, it sounds like the volume would be the same as long as level mode is set to reference.
When set to "Reference", the volume knob has no effect. We tested that.

The other possibility is that the lower of the two has something blown in the amp section that causes it to run much lower than the other one.
The lower of the two has much flatter response. (I know you can't see the pic's right now, but I'll try to fix that when I get home tonight.)

As an alternative, why not set both subs to variable and adjust the master level knob till they output the same via an spl meter?
Because that lead to a 17 dB disparity in the level settings:
"Then the AS-EQ1 sends a noise signal to each sub independently, and we were to set the "Variable" level so that they both measured the same SPL at the primary listening position. Surprisingly, we found that the left sub measured 17 dB higher than the right sub!"

Craig

bfreedma

07-09-09, 10:57 AM

otk

07-09-09, 11:19 AM

Why don't you concentrate on the SVS and ED threads. At this point, everyone on this one is aware that you have an axe to grind with JL for pulling your dealership (it's not hard to understand why they pulled it from you)

Given that you only recommend ID brands, it's a safe assumption that you aren't a dealer for any products at this time (also not hard to understand why). Good - the average quality of dealers is now fractionally higher with your departure.

What's really humorous is that you probably believe that anyone on these forums would be influenced by your opinion. If anything, your support of SVS and eD probably hurts them more than helps.

he's been doing this for like over 2 years now. last time was a couple months ago. the mod deleted all his posts but he's back again

real nut job

bfreedma

07-09-09, 11:31 AM

he's been doing this for like over 2 years now. last time was a couple months ago. the mod deleted all his posts but he's back again

real nut job

I know, having seen his previous posts before the well deserved deletions.

Why do I get a feeling that the staffs at SVS and eD cringe even more than we do when getech's posts show up. They are good companies/products, and I've never seen any of their actual reps unfairly knock JL. They have stated that there are differences in cost and in specific performance attributes, but most of the posts (from Ed Mullen for example) have been fair regarding the differences of the products.

The Bogg

07-09-09, 02:25 PM

Because that lead to a 17 dB disparity in the level settings:

Craig

If you run the built-in demo in each sub set to reference do they SOUND roughly at the same level? i.e. subjectively, not by measurement. 17db is a HUGE discrepancy. I would try adjusting the volume of the higher output down to match the volume of the other sub and then try equalizing them and then listen and see what you think - this is while waiting to hear back from Manville.

It's interesting that you were happy with the bass before noticing the discrepancy. Usually the second sub will only smooth out the in-room bass response if it is roughly the same level as the 1st sub...

ransac

07-09-09, 03:47 PM

craig john

07-09-09, 05:52 PM

I too was going to suggest you use the gain to level match to the lower, more linear of the two. See if that makes the higher volume sub more linear. There are a lot of variables at work here, but 17dB is much greater a disparity than component tolerances should allow.

This is a case of 'best to leave well enough alone'. But now that you've opened this can of worms, I know you won't be happy until it's resolved.
The 17 dB disparity was with the left sub in the left corner and the right sub in the right "semi-corner". When placed in the same position in the middle of the room, the disparity was 12 dB, (the other 5 dB was probably the additional corner loading and some room acoustics issues.) Still, 12 dB's is an unacceptable difference.

I think the pics are fixed in my post above.

Craig

Ese

07-10-09, 10:40 AM

tractng,
The cost difference is about 1k between them but go look and see what each can be had for. Sound wise they are pretty close, they say if you are using it for HT get the 113 for music get the 112, when I listened to both they where almost identical to me but I listened in different rooms so it was hard. The f113 has alot more output which is nice especally if you ever move to a bigger HT. For your room size eithor should be fine.

What kind of camera did you use for your home theater photos?

Ese'

Michael1138

07-10-09, 10:52 AM

bfreedma

07-10-09, 11:16 AM

I've got an f112 coming in next week to demo. My question concerns crossovers in the sub and receiver. I have a Pioneer Elite VSX-82TXS receiver, and as far as I can tell, there is no way to disable its crossover. My only options are 50, 80, 100, 150, and 200Hz. So, from my understanding, the receiver's crossover is the only one I can use, correct? Using both crossovers would cause problems, right? I assume the only way to utilize the crossover in the sub would be to have a receiver or pre/pro with the ability to defeat its internal bass management.

I'm using the crossover in an Elite VSX-94TXH without issue, and I believe that most others are using the receiver xover as well. I've got the xover set at 80 - having tried most of the available settings, this works best with my speakers and F113.

YMMV, but 80 seems to be the most common setting as per this thread. This is, of course, dependent on your speakers and whether you are set to "small" or "large" in the PIO setup. Again, most on this thread appear to prefer "small".

Try those settings as a starting point and then experiment from there to see what works best for your setup.

craig john

07-10-09, 02:10 PM

Manville,

Any follow up?

The thread's been dormant a few days, so let's kick it back up.

A few days ago, a friend and forum member, (pepar), brought over a demo unit of the SVS AS-EQ1. For those unfamiliar with this new device, it's an Audyssey-based EQ for the subwoofer channel only.
http://www.svsound.com/products-parts-subeq.cfm

It has twice the resolution of their Audyssey pro unit, and it's all focused on the subwoofer. It's forte' is EQ'ing multiple subs. It has 2 outputs and it EQ's each individually and then the pair together. pepar had installed it in his theater, which has 4 Hsu TN-1220 subs, running in a dual, co-located pair arrangement with a pair of Hsu amps driving them. He was very pleased with the results and so brought it here to try with my pair of F112's.

The first thing the AS-EQ1 does before it runs any EQ "pings" is to "level-match" the subs. Prior to the AS-EQ1, I had always run my F112 pair in Master/Slave arrangement, which I assumed was a "gain-matched" arrangement. In order to perform level-matching, the subs needed to be taken out of M/S and set to "Variable". Then the AS-EQ1 sends a noise signal to each sub independently, and we were to set the "Variable" level so that they both measured the same SPL at the primary listening position.

Surprisingly, we found that the left sub measured 17 dB higher than the right sub! :eek: That's right!!! 17 dB! Now, the left sub is fully corner loaded, so it should get maximum gain from the corner. The right sub is also in a corner, but the right wall only extends 4' into the room, and then it opens to a stairwell going up to the first floor. Therefore the right sub should not get as much room re-enforcement as the left sub... but 17 dB???

Anyway, we left it that way and went ahead with the AS-EQ1 routine. Afterward we did some listening and we decided that something was not right. The deep bass was bloated while the mid bass was anemic. It sounded awful. pepar took the AS-EQ1 home, mystified by the result, as was I.

Last night, he came back with his laptop and REW and we took some measurements of the subs. We found that the disparity in levels noted by AS-EQ1 was also measured by REW. So, to eliminate the possibility that corner gain/room acoustics was the culprit, we pulled the subs out to the middle of the room. First we measured the left sub with the mic 3" from the driver. Then we taped the outline of the sub on the floor, removed it and placed the right sub in the exact same position. The mic was never moved, so it was in the exact same position relative to the driver, (or as close as possible). (This type of measurement is the closest one can get *indoors* to measuring the true output of the sub with minimal influence of room acoustics on the measurement.)

We measured the levels with both subs set on "Reference". (According to the manual, Page 16, "When at the "0" or straight up position, the Variable Gain setting matches the Reference level setting.") All other settings were the same: ARO: Defeat, LPF:Off, E.L.F Trim:"0", Polarity:"0", Phase:"0".

The following are the two graphs we recorded:

Left sub:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=147444&d=1247175993

Right sub:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=147445&d=1247176002

Note the large difference in levels. We also measured the average SPL's with a noise signal. The left sub measured 102 .7 dB while the right sub measured 90.3 dB. What could cause such a disparity, (~12 dB), in the levels produced by the Reference level setting of 2 subs that should be exactly the same? BTW, this test was not possible in the Master/Slave mode because you can't run the Slave if the Master is turned off. Therefore, I can't tell if this problem persists with the M/S mode.

In addition, note the differences in the curves. The left sub is much less linear across the range. It's upper -3 dB point looks to be about 100Hz, and it looks to be down ~15 dB at 200 Hz. The right sub is virtually flat from ~23 Hz almost to 200 Hz, but it's overall level is about 12 dB lower than the left. Why are the responses so different? Which one is "right"? Is one of the subs defective?

I've PM'd Manville Smith. Hopefully he'll have an answer.

Craig