I just received my f112 which is replacing a Polk PSW-404. So far, I've only had a couple of hours to play with it, but the results are pretty impressive. I still have a lot of adjusting to do, but I wanted to pass on some of my initial thoughts and pose a few questions to those who have been living with the f112/f113 for a while.

Build quality is obviously rock solid, and the satin finish is very nice. I didn't get to see the satin finish in the show room, but I couldn't be happier with its appearance. If only JL made a cherry finish...:rolleyes:

Something that no one has posted, but was of concern to me, was if the feet could be unscrewed to level the sub. Fortunately, they can be, which is great.

ARO works surprisingly well, better than I thought. I was looking at a DD-12 primarily for its multi-band EQ, but ARO did an amazing job of getting rid of my primary peak at 60Hz, and even helped to level out everything from 50Hz-80Hz. I didn't think it had that wide of an adjustment, but consider me impressed.

One thing to note, and I may have over-obsessed about it, was that when I initially set levels, I spent a good 45 minutes adjusting phase on the sub. I was using the 30Hz-80Hz Sub Phase Test on DVE HD Basics. I was trying to find the flattest response before I performed ARO. The closest I could get was with phase set to about 125 degrees and polarity set to 180 degrees. After ARO had been done, I tried changing phase, and that threw everything out of whack. Everything is definitely tied together.

I used The Dark Knight BD tunnel chase seen as my test scene. My room is 14x19x8.5 and carpeted. I typically listen to movies around -15dB on my Pioneeer Elite receiver. Holy smokes! JL should have included seat belts with this thing. I thought I was going to be knocked out of my chair. Granted, I have some adjusting to do, but it really gives you a punch to the gut. My chair, and mind you, these are heavy duty theater seats, was vibrating with every hit, explosion, gun fire, you name it. I eventually turned down the ELF trim by -3dB. On a whole, it was a massive step up from what I am used to.

The other thing that impressed me, and it impressed me in the showroom, is how seamlessly it blends with the rest of my speakers. I truly does disappear. While I never had any issues with the Polk, and I did like it, it was more of a mid-bass driver. You could here a little bit of bloat with it, but not with the f112.

Now for a few questions:

1. It may have been that I had the sub level set too high, but is the cone supposed to move that much!?!:eek: It looked at times like it was literally going to jump out of the cabinet. I think I actually saw that 3" peak-to-peak travel! I know these are high excursion drivers, but is there any chance of doing damage to them? I'm just not used to seeing that.

2. This may be tied to question #1, but I could here a little bit of cone noise, or flap, when it had precision hits. In The Dark Knight, after the tunnel chase and the subsequent semi-truck flip, the Bat Bike hits the wall and flips around. This was a pretty pinpoint hit and is where I noticed the most cone noise. I did turn down the ELF trim by -3dB, which helped a little. Also, I did not have the speaker grille on, which might help mask this noise. Is this normal, or do I just need to "turn it down?":o

3. From everything I've read, it sounds like these are pretty much indestructible. Based on the previous two questions, is there any chance of hurting it, or do I just need to strap in and enjoy the ride?

Thoughts and comments are appreciated. This thread has been more than helpful in steering me towards my f112 purchase.

1. yes that is normal

2. Can't say without hearing it

3. The drivers are built very well and i haven't heard of anyone killing one. I'm sure someone has managed to though.

WOE just watched Knowing with Nick Cage not the most riveting film, but it does it's magic in the lower region with some of those unearthly crashes:eek:...I can't believe how much my F113 impresses me almost three years into my initial purchase...I definitely have to say is high up there in the FUN-O-METER of any HT component I've own, simply amazing.

Djoel

Robert Harley threw everything but the kitchen sink at his twin F113's during his review and stated basically that he could not get his to misbehave in any way and they performed with incredible agility, speed, definition, tone and well, kick A$$ bass at any volume.

I have never heard my two F113's make any sort of cone noise, break up or flap. It is possible you have it up too high in relation to your main system. I would also say you watch your films with a much higher volume level than I do. I am usually -25 to -21 on my Pioneer Elite SC-09 volume level at the most. With that, my F113's move my furniture, walls and quite possibly my street address with aplomb.

Once or twice I have experimented with them on some synth music from Barry Ober's wonderful set up disc he sends along with JL's purchased from him and holy cow, I felt my floor was going to fall out and the walls dislocate long before I felt any possible compression from them.

As with Djoel, these continue to impress me with every turn of every disc I play and occasionally on cable HD, not the F113's fault, just cable being cable.

I would suggest working on level matching your sub, next.

Thanks for the responses guys.:)

I probably do have it set too hot. I know that when I turned the ELF trim down all the way, it wasn't nearly as violent. I wasn't sure if the f112 would be limited compared to the f113, other than the lowest level output. I know almost everyone here owns the f113, so that's why I asked. Mind you, the only time a heard the cone flap was on that one Bat Bike shot. My weekend should be pretty fun getting this dialed in.

Concerning receiver volume level, I do listen to movies at high levels, although it's nothing uncomfortable or fatiguing by any means. I watch TV shows at around -25dB depending on the station. It could be my speakers, they're Polk RTi series. IIRC, they're not that efficient, something like 89dB. So, they probably require a little more juice to get them going.

M1138,

Also be carefull how much you "push" the LFE signal from your AVR/Surround Processor.

You can trim th gain on the sub down a hair too.

Mind you, the only time a heard the cone flap was on that one Bat Bike shot.


Are you sure it isn't the soundtrack it self? I have a music cd that I could never remember, but when I play it I swear my neighbors are knocking on the walls, it sounds like a distant hallow bump, bump!:p

Djoel

Thanks for the responses guys.:)

I probably do have it set too hot. I know that when I turned the ELF trim down all the way, it wasn't nearly as violent. I wasn't sure if the f112 would be limited compared to the f113, other than the lowest level output. I know almost everyone here owns the f113, so that's why I asked. Mind you, the only time a heard the cone flap was on that one Bat Bike shot. My weekend should be pretty fun getting this dialed in.

Concerning receiver volume level, I do listen to movies at high levels, although it's nothing uncomfortable or fatiguing by any means. I watch TV shows at around -25dB depending on the station. It could be my speakers, they're Polk RTi series. IIRC, they're not that efficient, something like 89dB. So, they probably require a little more juice to get them going.

I would say we're pretty close then on how loud we watch our films, you and I. My speakers are 92 dB efficient if I recall so we are pretty close. That being said, it might be you have your sub a dB or two hot. Try playing with different settings until you get a bass/main system balance that YOU like and feels right. You should not hear your sub but feel it and it gets to the point you can actually hear it over the main system even after dialing in the phase, then its too hot from a balance standpoint. You may prefer that as an individual and that's cool, of course.

There have been times where with the F113's like the pod first pod scene in WOTW or in Serenity where I thought for sure I was going to blow out a circuit breaker or at least take a few windows with me. My fiance' went berserk especially in Serenity. I guess she doesn't like having her insides moved to new locations... :D

Whatever, in the end, enjoy it. The F112 was one of TAS' subs of the year last year, as well. Once you get settled with it and play some music you will know why. It is supremely "musical" as well as ballsy.

Are you sure it isn't the soundtrack it self? I have a music cd that I could never remember, but when I play it I swear my neighbors are knocking on the walls, it sounds like a distant hallow bump, bump!:p

Djoel

Djoel, you are probably right, too. I do have to adjust mine for some movies that have HOT LFE and bass levels. I am not sure about the dark knight and if it does or not, but may be. I know it is some folks LFE reference. On Serenity I have to push mine down about 2 dB more or my walls start bending out and I am chewing my intestines shortly into the film. :eek:

Of course, that's not entirely a bad thing (re: walls bending). I am not particularly fond of my intestines, however. Ha, ha. :rolleyes:

One thing to note, and I may have over-obsessed about it, was that when I initially set levels, I spent a good 45 minutes adjusting phase on the sub. I was using the 30Hz-80Hz Sub Phase Test on DVE HD Basics. I was trying to find the flattest response before I performed ARO. The closest I could get was with phase set to about 125 degrees and polarity set to 180 degrees. After ARO had been done, I tried changing phase, and that threw everything out of whack. Everything is definitely tied together.
The phase setting is used to adjust the sub so that it is in phase with the speakers at the crossover point. I don't know what the 30-80 Hz Sub Phase Test is on DVE, but if you're not running your speakers at the same time you're adjusting the phase, you're not really doing anything useful. You're just delaying the subwoofer output by whatever fraction of a cycle you've set it to. For example, setting it to 180 degrees delays the subwoofer by half a cycle. IOW, instead of the positive deflection of the wave, you'll have the negative deflection. Setting it at 90 degrees delays the sub by 1/4 cycle, etc.

The key is to delay it just enough so the positive deflection of the sub and the positive deflection of the speaker arrive at the listening position at the exact same time. This is only important at the frequencies where they overlap, (i.e., at the crossover point.) To do this, play a tone at your crossover frequency. Set the phase were the level is highest at your listening position. This is the point were you get maximum "constructive" gain from the two waves. At any other points, they'll be out of phase and you get "destructive" cancellation of the waves.


Now for a few questions:

1. It may have been that I had the sub level set too high, but is the cone supposed to move that much!?!:eek: It looked at times like it was literally going to jump out of the cabinet. I think I actually saw that 3" peak-to-peak travel! I know these are high excursion drivers, but is there any chance of doing damage to them? I'm just not used to seeing that.
The subs have a "limiter" built in to ensure they don't exceed their maximum excursion.

2. This may be tied to question #1, but I could here a little bit of cone noise, or flap, when it had precision hits. In The Dark Knight, after the tunnel chase and the subsequent semi-truck flip, the Bat Bike hits the wall and flips around. This was a pretty pinpoint hit and is where I noticed the most cone noise. I did turn down the ELF trim by -3dB, which helped a little. Also, I did not have the speaker grille on, which might help mask this noise. Is this normal, or do I just need to "turn it down?":o
You may have been hearing the limiter kicking in. Turn it down a little and see if it goes away.

3. From everything I've read, it sounds like these are pretty much indestructible. Based on the previous two questions, is there any chance of hurting it, or do I just need to strap in and enjoy the ride?
The limiter will keep you from "hurting" your sub. They will also limit the maximum output. If you find you want more output, you'll need more subs. I have 2 F112's, and there are times when I wish I had a few dB more output. My room is a lot bigger than yours though.

Craig

Thanks so much for all of the input! It's very helpful and definitely things I will try.:)

M1138,

Also be carefull how much you "push" the LFE signal from your AVR/Surround Processor.

You can trim th gain on the sub down a hair too.

I have the receiver Sub Woofer lever at -3dB. Using the receiver's internal test signal generator, it measured 75dB, which is where I have the rest of my speakers set.


Are you sure it isn't the soundtrack it self? I have a music cd that I could never remember, but when I play it I swear my neighbors are knocking on the walls, it sounds like a distant hallow bump, bump!:p

It's possible, but I don't think it is. The only reason I say that is I can hear it just a little from my seat, which is 9-10 feet away. If I get to within 3 feet of the sub, it's louder and seems to be in time with the cone movement. It's probably just a result of being an extremely hard hit and being turned up a little too much.


The phase setting is used to adjust the sub so that it is in phase with the speakers at the crossover point. I don't know what the 30-80 Hz Sub Phase Test is on DVE, but if you're not running your speakers at the same time you're adjusting the phase, you're not really doing anything useful. You're just delaying the subwoofer output by whatever fraction of a cycle you've set it to. For example, setting it to 180 degrees delays the subwoofer by half a cycle. IOW, instead of the positive deflection of the wave, you'll have the negative deflection. Setting it at 90 degrees delays the sub by 1/4 cycle, etc.

The key is to delay it just enough so the positive deflection of the sub and the positive deflection of the speaker arrive at the listening position at the exact same time. This is only important at the frequencies where they overlap, (i.e., at the crossover point.) To do this, play a tone at your crossover frequency. Set the phase were the level is highest at your listening position. This is the point were you get maximum "constructive" gain from the two waves. At any other points, they'll be out of phase and you get "destructive" cancellation of the waves.

It is only playing out the sub. Admittedly, I was obsessing too much over numbers and not thinking about the big picture. I will say that using the 15Hz-300Hz sweep, which drives all channels, that it sounded noticeably smoother than the Polk, and I never noticed an obvious transition from sub to mains. I will try this again using both the sub and the rest of the speakers and see what kind of results I get.

Also, thanks for the limiter info. That's good to know as I am definitely not used to seeing that kind of cone movement.

WOE just watched Knowing with Nick Cage not the most riveting film, but it does it's magic in the lower region with some of those unearthly crashes:eek:...I can't believe how much my F113 impresses me almost three years into my initial purchase...I definitely have to say is high up there in the FUN-O-METER of any HT component I've own, simply amazing.

Djoel

Yes, Knowing with my F113 sounded great too. However, even in my small 800CF theater, I wasn't blown away or fear the house would fall into pieces. But the F113 does blend VERY seamlessly with my Paradigm speakers, much more so than my SVS PB-12 Plus.

Maybe I should tweak the settings more, while I'm impressed with the unit, I don't think I'm getting the full mind blowing effect that others are describing. I have a Denon 3808, Audyssey calibration, and normally listen at -10dB.

I didn't use ARO, as I thought I read it was better to let Audyssey do all the correction and not have 'double' correction by also using ARO.

I did some more tweaking last night. I re-adjusted the phase with the rest of speakers in the mix as opposed to just the sub. The difference was very subtle.

I also turned down the Sub Woofer output on my receiver to -4dB which helped with some of the crazy cone travel, but not much. This is where it reads 75dB on my SPL meter, which is where the rest of my speakers are set using the receiver's internal signal generator.

I tried Transformers, Serenity, Underworld, and U-571 for further testing. All seemed pretty good, but Serenity is authored at least +6dB hotter than the others.

I still am experiencing some cone flap, at least that's the best way I know to describe it. Let me further expand on this. As I stated yesterday, the Bat Bike flip did it, the opening shot of the tilt-rotor aircraft in Transformers did it, and the opening shot in Serenity definitely did it. It basically sounds like someone is tapping on the cone in these extreme bass scenes.

I also used the test tones from this site: http://www.realtraps.com/test-cd.htm Now, I did have to set my receiver's volume at -35dB to get to 75dB on my SPL meter. All things being equal, that shouldn't matter as I was trying to establish a "bass-line.":p At the 20Hz tone, my SPL meter read 66dB, and the cone was moving slowly, presumably because it is a long wavelength signal. I could definitely hear the tapping. It was keeping time with the cone movement. I could also hear it at the 30Hz tone. By the time it got to the 40Hz tone, it was gone, and I did not hear it on any of the other tones. For what it's worth, I could see the cone moving just a little on the 10Hz tone, but nothing that would register on the SPL meter on no cone tapping. It seemed to start in that 16Hz-20Hz range.

Now, my Polk would occasionally do this on high impact scenes, but that was to be expected. I wouldn't expect this product to do that, especially with all of the testing and reviews out there. Also, earlier in this thread, there were ground plane tests performed using 16Hz, 20Hz, and 25Hz tones, IIRC. Also, Manville Smith had posted a graph showing what the f112 was capable of. I would think that surely someone would have mentioned this cone knocking noise in the extreme low regions at these volume levels. Or have I done something wrong?

I found this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=9945721&postcount=1597 This person seems to have had a similar experience. If you look at frockc's posts on page 54 of this thread, he goes into further detail. Now, while his issue was at every bass note, mine only seems to be in the extreme low regions and is nowhere near as violent as what his video illustrates. Similar, but different.

I don't think I'm listening to it too loud. I know test tones are just that, for testing. But when real world material shows it, I'm left scratching my head.

Below are Manville Smith's f112 chart from earlier in this thread, as well as the video that frockc posted illustrating his cone flapping noise.

Any thoughts? Could someone please try the test tones from the link above and see if their unit exhibits the cone tapping? That would be very helpful. If someone else's unit does it, then I would feel a little better.

Yes, Knowing with my F113 sounded great too. However, even in my small 800CF theater, I wasn't blown away or fear the house would fall into pieces. But the F113 does blend VERY seamlessly with my Paradigm speakers, much more so than my SVS PB-12 Plus.

Maybe I should tweak the settings more, while I'm impressed with the unit, I don't think I'm getting the full mind blowing effect that others are describing. I have a Denon 3808, Audyssey calibration, and normally listen at -10dB.

I didn't use ARO, as I thought I read it was better to let Audyssey do all the correction and not have 'double' correction by also using ARO.

800 cubic feet?:confused:

Wow, that is cozy. An F113 should loosen some teeth in that size room.

I did some more tweaking last night. I re-adjusted the phase with the rest of speakers in the mix as opposed to just the sub. The difference was very subtle.

I also turned down the Sub Woofer output on my receiver to -4dB which helped with some of the crazy cone travel, but not much. This is where it reads 75dB on my SPL meter, which is where the rest of my speakers are set using the receiver's internal signal generator.

I tried Transformers, Serenity, Underworld, and U-571 for further testing. All seemed pretty good, but Serenity is authored at least +6dB hotter than the others.

I still am experiencing some cone flap, at least that's the best way I know to describe it. Let me further expand on this. As I stated yesterday, the Bat Bike flip did it, the opening shot of the tilt-rotor aircraft in Transformers did it, and the opening shot in Serenity definitely did it. It basically sounds like someone is tapping on the cone in these extreme bass scenes.
The sound you describe sounds like the limiters. I have 2 F112's and I hear the same things on those scenes. The F112 is not a VLF monster. If you want full "Reference Level", (115 dB in the subwoofer channel), at 20 Hz, you want a different sub. If you look at the max output/frequency graph you posted, the max output at 20 Hz is ~93 dB, and 83 dB at 16 hz @ 2 meters, corner loaded. If your sub is not corner loaded and you're measuring more than 2 meters away, you will have less SPL @ 20 Hz than what JL measured. Then, if you're playing back 20 Hz and below content at a level of 95 dB, (or a Master Volume setting of -20), you'll be exceeding the output capability of the sub... and the limiters will kick in. That's what you're hearing.

Craig

The sound you describe sounds like the limiters. I have 2 F112's and I hear the same things on those scenes. The F112 is not a VLF monster. If you want full "Reference Level", (115 dB in the subwoofer channel), at 20 Hz, you want a different sub. If you look at the max output/frequency graph you posted, the max output at 20 Hz is ~93 dB, and 83 dB at 16 hz @ 2 meters, corner loaded. If your sub is not corner loaded and you're measuring more than 2 meters away, you will have less SPL @ 20 Hz than what JL measured. Then, if you're playing back 20 Hz and below content at a level of 95 dB, (or a Master Volume setting of -20), you'll be exceeding the output capability of the sub... and the limiters will kick in. That's what you're hearing.

Craig

Thanks Craig.:) The sub is about 10 feet from my listening position. It will be completely corner loaded once I move the Polk. Right now, it is sitting right next to it, so it's about a 1.5 feet from its final location.

I didn't even think about the distance to which the graph measurements were taken. That makes total sense. I'll try taking measurements again at the 2 meter distance just to see where I am.

If you don't mind, could you please explain how the limiter works?:o I think I understand what it's doing, assuming it's limiting the power. I just don't get why it would make a tapping noise, unless it's mechanical in nature.:confused:

Thanks Craig.:)
If you don't mind, could you please explain how the limiter works?:o I think I understand what it's doing, assuming it's limiting the power. I just don't get why it would make a tapping noise, unless it's mechanical in nature.:confused:

Craig can better explain but the limiter is mechanical and is designed to protect the driver from excursion beyond it's safety zone and avoid possibly blowing the driver. :)

Craig can better explain but the limiter is mechanical and is designed to protect the driver from excursion beyond it's safety zone and avoid possibly blowing the driver. :)

If I understood Craig's post, it seems like what I am experiencing would be tied to limiting the amp, as the driver is not moving enough at 20Hz, at least on the test tone, to reach its excursion limit.

If Craig can explain how that works and why JL, or any manufacturer, would install a limiter that makes an audible noise would be nice.

Also, I do have a Bass Peak Limiter on my receiver. Would that be a good idea to try and engage that, or would I be doing more harm by limiting the overall signal to accommodate for the occasional low level burst?

Well, after having spent the weekend with the f112, something is definitely wrong. The cone tapping noise is very prominent with all material and is completely unacceptable. This is very noticeable in the 20Hz-40Hz range, but does extend up into the higher ranges with higher volume levels. It basically sounds like a woodpecker and it doesn't matter what the volume level is. I can start out at the minimum level, slowly turn it up, and begin hearing the tapping almost immediately. The opening of Cloverfield is a good example. The low rumble of footsteps and their decay is extremely annoying with this tapping.

I hooked my Polk sub back up and was unable to get this tapping sound no matter how hard I tried. The most I got was cabinet resonance.

That being said, I am not going to keep the f112. After going back and forth between it and the Polk, and taking a series of SPL readings, the difference between the two does not justify the price to upgrade. My Polk exactly matched the f112 from 30Hz-100Hz. The one area where the JL was better was from 20Hz-30Hz. The Polk just did not reproduce this range with enough volume level to make it noticeable.

I just can't justify the price for such a minimal gain.

Thanks to all who have helped with my questions. It has been very much appreciated.:)

It sounds like your F112 is defective. Before you give up on the sub completely, it might be worth having your dealer replace it to see if a properly working unit would give you the expected performance

should be no tapping noise. has to be defective

i wouldn't throw in the towel just yet. take it back and get a new unit

that sub should be clean as hell in the 20Hz-40Hz range

Well, after having spent the weekend with the f112, something is definitely wrong. The cone tapping noise is very prominent with all material and is completely unacceptable. This is very noticeable in the 20Hz-40Hz range, but does extend up into the higher ranges with higher volume levels. It basically sounds like a woodpecker and it doesn't matter what the volume level is. I can start out at the minimum level, slowly turn it up, and begin hearing the tapping almost immediately. The opening of Cloverfield is a good example. The low rumble of footsteps and their decay is extremely annoying with this tapping.

I hooked my Polk sub back up and was unable to get this tapping sound no matter how hard I tried. The most I got was cabinet resonance.

That being said, I am not going to keep the f112. After going back and forth between it and the Polk, and taking a series of SPL readings, the difference between the two does not justify the price to upgrade. My Polk exactly matched the f112 from 30Hz-100Hz. The one area where the JL was better was from 20Hz-30Hz. The Polk just did not reproduce this range with enough volume level to make it noticeable.

I just can't justify the price for such a minimal gain.

Thanks to all who have helped with my questions. It has been very much appreciated.:)
I agree with the above posters... it sounds like you have a defective driver in your sub. Contact Manville Smith. He can help you figure out if the sub is defective, and help you get it fixed/replaced.

Craig

I had the exact same issue as you described with my F113. Cloverfield's opening scene really accentuated the issue.I'm sure JL Audio will be able to assist if you feel like giving the F112 another shot.

I had the exact same issue as you described with my F113. Cloverfield's opening scene really accentuated the issue.I'm sure JL Audio will be able to assist if you feel like giving the F112 another shot.

Well, as much as I would like to give it another shot, I can't justify the cost considering the small improvement I was hearing. The extra low-end was nice, but not $2600 nice compared to what I already have.:rolleyes:

Just out of curiosity, did you have your f113 repaired/replaced, or does it still make the tapping sound?

Well, as much as I would like to give it another shot, I can't justify the cost considering the small improvement I was hearing. The extra low-end was nice, but not $2600 nice compared to what I already have.:rolleyes:

Just out of curiosity, did you have your f113 repaired/replaced, or does it still make the tapping sound?

If the driver is defective, then you probably aren't getting the full performance of the 112. I'd still try to get a properly working unit in your system before reaching on a conclusion - if the differential doesn't improve, then return the 112 and save the $'s

800 cubic feet?:confused:

Wow, that is cozy. An F113 should loosen some teeth in that size room.

Just to expand on this. Please continue to play around with your setup. In that size room, I don't think any sub at any price/size will give you an improvement. The F113 is more than enough for your sized room.

I just bought 2 new f113's, that I hooked up and adjusted yesterday.I am having the same problem with one of them(bad woofer flap).One does it, one doesn't.
I have a dedicated 18x22x12(4752cf) home theater room,had one old MK-125 sub and just upgraded to the 2 JL's....I'm not that impressed??
Have B&W 801 mains,B&W 802 rears,Krell processor,Krell amps and after reading reviews on these subs for awhile now.....not getting that shake the room feelling everyone talks about???and no where near as tight with music as the B&W's.

Dan

I too had two F113's in my dedicated ht and while they were quite a solid sub, they just weren't awe inspiring. I in fact sold them for a time. A much, much better deal and more of performer would be 2 SVS PB13 Ultra's...for about half the cost and at least twice the wow power. You owe it to yourself to at least hear two SVS's...I can almost guarantee that you will be sold, period.
I will get flamed here I'm sure but pm me and I will tell you my experience. Also, SVS is number one in customer service....I love those guys!:p

I just bought 2 new f113's, that I hooked up and adjusted yesterday.I am having the same problem with one of them(bad woofer flap).One does it, one doesn't.
I have a dedicated 18x22x12(4752cf) home theater room,had one old MK-125 sub and just upgraded to the 2 JL's....I'm not that impressed??
Have B&W 801 mains,B&W 802 rears,Krell processor,Krell amps and after reading reviews on these subs for awhile now.....not getting that shake the room feelling everyone talks about???and no where near as tight with music as the B&W's.

Dan

I have a similar size room - also with two 113's - I started with one, and that alone caused me to find room rattles I never knew I had - two, along with my full range L/R, is more than sufficient.

Can't speak with the rattle, other than you're running the sub too hot, but to see what's going on, simplfy some things - try first running the built-in calibration on each 113 separately - you'll have to adjust the sub volume to get within the calibration db zone, but once you do, the sub will begin a long, slow sweep. Not only will you calibrate you sub to your room, but you'll get some sense of the output and if there any issues with the sub/driver itself before you start looking at source equipment and settings. I think there is a test/demo mode on the JL's also, but I'm too lazy to dig out my manual right now.

If you have a decibel meter and test disc (or using the test tones), double check the level calibration of all speakers including the subs. Typically, 75 db for each speaker is reference level, and all your speakers should hit that mark.

Also, take the sage advice and try different room placements of the subs if you can - this can make an audible difference. And when testing the 113's with your entire system, assure you don't have any phase issues - first between two 113's (make sure their phase and polarity settings match), and the 113's with the rest of your system. Wrong phasing can carve a big hole in bass performance. Various test DVD's have audio phase tests for this - I use a neat app for my iPhone called Speaker Pop, which lets you test every driver's phase to make sure things are right (and I discovered my center channel was wired reversed, internally! It can happen!)

Ironically, I had an M&K 125 as well, and it can not come close to the performance of the JL 113.

Hope this helps

I just bought 2 new f113's, that I hooked up and adjusted yesterday.I am having the same problem with one of them(bad woofer flap).One does it, one doesn't.
I have a dedicated 18x22x12(4752cf) home theater room,had one old MK-125 sub and just upgraded to the 2 JL's....I'm not that impressed??
Have B&W 801 mains,B&W 802 rears,Krell processor,Krell amps and after reading reviews on these subs for awhile now.....not getting that shake the room feelling everyone talks about???and no where near as tight with music as the B&W's.

Dan

Also, I forgot an obvious one - how do you have your bass management set up - not familiar with the Krell...

I too had two F113's in my dedicated ht and while they were quite a solid sub, they just weren't awe inspiring. I in fact sold them for a time. A much, much better deal and more of performer would be 2 SVS PB13 Ultra's...for about half the cost and at least twice the wow power. You owe it to yourself to at least hear two SVS's...I can almost guarantee that you will be sold, period.
I will get flamed here I'm sure but pm me and I will tell you my experience. Also, SVS is number one in customer service....I love those guys!:p



No flaming should occur at all. SVS are great subs. I agree they are priced more reasonably than the JL's. I remember when they first started building the cylinders and then suddenly the word spreading on the HTF years ago like a brush fire. What I find funny is the on and off bandwagon on products on this forum. Not just subwoofers. An item will get praise on here for awhile and then the "new car feeling"/buyers remorse kicks in and suddenly it's no longer that popular for some people. You never gave a detailed listening comparison as to why the SVS subs are better than the JL's besides price.

I love my 2 Fathom F113's. They shake the whole room and most of the house resonates when I play them with the right demo material. Just for the record my house is 2100sqft. I owned a REL Stentor III which wasn't cheap either but can't touch the Fathom 113 IMHO.

Hey guys. i currently have a definitive tech pro sub 1000. im looking to upgrade soon and the main sub im looking at is the F112. my room is only 11x12. would the JL be overkill? or is there no such thing when it comes to subs?:)

Overkill is good in the audio world.

Haha i just thought maby in my small room it'll be to much.

I too had two F113's in my dedicated ht and while they were quite a solid sub, they just weren't awe inspiring. I in fact sold them for a time. A much, much better deal and more of performer would be 2 SVS PB13 Ultra's...for about half the cost and at least twice the wow power. You owe it to yourself to at least hear two SVS's...I can almost guarantee that you will be sold, period.
I will get flamed here I'm sure but pm me and I will tell you my experience. Also, SVS is number one in customer service....I love those guys!:p


Yawn, you again.

Since the poster you are replying to is new and probably doesn't know your history, let's frame it for him so that he understands.

Getech used to be a JL dealer. His dealership was pulled by (not hard to guess why), so he pops up here on a regular basis to bash JL. I'd normally recommend that the OP review the previous posts to better understand the history, but it got so out of hand that the mods appear to have deleted a lot of Getech's posting in this thread, as it had no value. That alone should be illustrative of his intent.

That's not saying that the SVS is a bad product - it's quite good, but having listened to both in my room, they are different beasts with different goals.

The SVS is a fine, large ported HT sub, trading off size for price. For those without size restrictions looking for primarily HT utilization, it's a great performer.

The JL gives up a bit in sub 20Hz performance, but has better performance across the rest of the range, and integrates far better with my speakers, particularly for music. I have a single F113 in a 2500cf room and have never felt the need for more bass when used for HT. For a system split between HT and music, I found it to be a better solution than the PB-13U. It's sealed, so there is no chance of ever encountering port noise.

The "percolating coffee" sound that is being described usually indicates that something is wrong. I had to replace one of my F113s because of it.

I don't know if you can ever have too much sub for a room, even a small room. My room isn't huge (17w x almost 8ft h x 24ft d) and I can hit the limiters of the 4 F113s with some movies. Mind you, it's pretty darn loud. These aren't designed as spl monsters. They play quite loud and they have a nice small footprint and they have great sound quality. You can get more output for cheaper though if high output is of prime importance.

Since I have two subs,we'll call one A-sub and the second one B-sub,and B-sub will be the one I'm having trouble with.

I started out using A-sub as the master and B-sub as the slave,15ft balanced XLR to A-sub and 30ft balanced XLR cable to B-sub.Measured their distance from primary seating position and entered that into the Krell processor then used my Radio shack soundmeter and matched them to all the speakers.
I ran the room correction(A.R.O)on the master A-sub,thought that it controlled both subs?
My son was home so he wanted to watch - BOLT.I noticed right away that B-sub was clipping/woofer slap/clanking;what ever you want to call it.It was so bad that I stopped the movie,to try and figure out what I did wrong?Subs where set on the REF level setting?Went through owners manual trying different things,nothing helped.
I then switched B-sub as the master w/the 15ft cable and A-sub as the slave and then ran the A.R.O on B-sub and noticed the Calibrate light was still on the A-sub.Tryed playing BOLT again and B-sub was doing the same exact thing(woofer knocking)???
Gave up on that movie moved on to Jurasic Park....it didn't do it as much,but was still doing it?
Played some music and there was no (woofer knock) but they did not seem very tight,could not keep up with the B&W 801's??

What am I doing wrong?Only got to spend about 4 hours with them and had to leave for work(work out of town).Will be back Saturday to play with them some more.
Do I just have a Bad Subwoofer?

Thanks for everyones help,Dan

I have 2 Fathom 113's and they seem to be overwhelming my room.

1. Does anyone run ARO and audyssey together? Advantages or disadvantages?

2. Is there a minimum level at which I must set the subs volume knobs? I already have it at 8:00.

Any Ideas?

I have 2 Fathom 113's and they seem to be overwhelming my room.

1. Does anyone run ARO and audyssey together? Advantages or disadvantages?

2. Is there a minimum level at which I must set the subs volume knobs? I already have it at 8:00.

I would not run Audyssey and ARO together. Please see the Audyssey Setup Guide linked in my signature.

Mark

Since I have two subs,we'll call one A-sub and the second one B-sub,and B-sub will be the one I'm having trouble with.

I started out using A-sub as the master and B-sub as the slave,15ft balanced XLR to A-sub and 30ft balanced XLR cable to B-sub.Measured their distance from primary seating position and entered that into the Krell processor then used my Radio shack soundmeter and matched them to all the speakers.
I ran the room correction(A.R.O)on the master A-sub,thought that it controlled both subs?
My son was home so he wanted to watch - BOLT.I noticed right away that B-sub was clipping/woofer slap/clanking;what ever you want to call it.It was so bad that I stopped the movie,to try and figure out what I did wrong?Subs where set on the REF level setting?Went through owners manual trying different things,nothing helped.
I then switched B-sub as the master w/the 15ft cable and A-sub as the slave and then ran the A.R.O on B-sub and noticed the Calibrate light was still on the A-sub.Tryed playing BOLT again and B-sub was doing the same exact thing(woofer knocking)???
Gave up on that movie moved on to Jurasic Park....it didn't do it as much,but was still doing it?
Played some music and there was no (woofer knock) but they did not seem very tight,could not keep up with the B&W 801's??

What am I doing wrong?Only got to spend about 4 hours with them and had to leave for work(work out of town).Will be back Saturday to play with them some more.
Do I just have a Bad Subwoofer?

Thanks for everyones help,Dan

Run the built-in demo on sub A and then on sub B. Use variable volume and gradually increase the volume and see if problems start.

I too had two F113's in my dedicated ht and while they were quite a solid sub, they just weren't awe inspiring. I in fact sold them for a time. A much, much better deal and more of performer would be 2 SVS PB13 Ultra's...for about half the cost and at least twice the wow power. You owe it to yourself to at least hear two SVS's...I can almost guarantee that you will be sold, period.
I will get flamed here I'm sure but pm me and I will tell you my experience. Also, SVS is number one in customer service....I love those guys!:p

Can we get the Moderators to ban this guy?:D

Hello everyone. I am new in this forum and have a question.
I want to move from Polk PSW1000 sub to JL Fathem F113. I would like to know if this is a going to be a noticeable upgrade. I have never heard the JL F113 and curious to satisfy the money difference.
I appreciate everyone's comments.

There's someone else who recently posted his comments about his experiences between his Polk PSW 404, and a JL f112. He might have been having some issues with the JL though.

Hmm don't want sounds like an ass here, but I'm not too sure about that particular Polk sub of yours nor any other of their sub for sometime now unless they are back in making serious high caliber subs! I heard my friends Polk a few years ago, and it was nothing to write home to mama about.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16834302#post16834302 Here is the guys post perhaps you can PM him.

I came from a Sunfire Signature Eq because I wanted a small foot print, and I hate it!
It wasn't musical at all. For movies it was OK, now my F113 catapult me to heights, or rather new lows and clean beautiful bass. A tad bigger than my old sub not by much but I'm allot happier than before, and isn't that what it's all about?

Good luck

Djoel

Hello everyone. I am new in this forum and have a question.
I want to move from Polk PSW1000 sub to JL Fathem F113. I would like to know if this is a going to be a noticeable upgrade. I have never heard the JL F113 and curious to satisfy the money difference.
I appreciate everyone's comments.

I have heard the Polk, and it is ok for the money, but the JL will deliver a completely different experience. Not to mention, they are completely different designs.

I appreciate everyone's comment. I placed an order for F113.

Have a question for those running dual F113's up front. Wondering how you're handled phasing for each sub. I have mine on the front stage next to my left and right main speakers. My primary listening position from both subs is about the same distance (11ft). My thought would be that phasing would be the same for both. However, any concerns with one sub cancelling out the other? If so, would a slight phase adjustment of one of the subs resolve that? or is this not an issue?

adidino,

You only get phase cancellation when the two subs are out of phase with each other. If they're both set to "0", you shouldn't have a problem.

Is it better to have the JL next to your mains at 80hz crossover?

I tried mine on the side walls, offset from each other for just HT (movies) and I think I liked it better, but they are heavy for a good a/b test.
I now just leave them (JL113's) up front!
They shake a 3 story block house at 1/2 master volume during movies.

adidino,

You only get phase cancellation when the two subs are out of phase with each other. If they're both set to "0", you shouldn't have a problem.

Thought so.. how about cancellation with the mains?

Been in contact with JL Audio.....One of the Engineer's lives very close to me.We have made plans for him to stop by and listen to the Sub., that's giving me trouble......now if that's not customer service,I don't know what is !!
Let you know what he comes up with.

Dan

Been in contact with JL Audio.....One of the Engineer's lives very close to me.We have made plans for him to stop by and listen to the Sub., that's giving me trouble......now if that's not customer service,I don't know what is !!
Let you know what he comes up with.

Dan

Is that Barry Ober by chance? I just recently discovered Barry (from M&K) works for JL now. I had the pleasure in chatting with him last week regarding some questions I had with my sub. He's a compliment to JL staff and it was a pleasure dealing with him during his time at M&K

Yes it is Barry...how lucky am I to live 10 miles from his home:)

Yes it is Barry...how lucky am I to live 10 miles from his home:)

wow... you're lucky. The guy is a genius.. he will probably make your entire system sound better just by walking into the room. ;)

Lol !!

Yes it is Barry...how lucky am I to live 10 miles from his home:)

If thats the case he needs to spend a few hours in my room. :D

Barry was great to deal with in supplying my F113 to me in Australia prior to a local distributor being established.

Barry was great to deal with in supplying my F113 to me in Australia prior to a local distributor being established.



Barry is Omnipresent:D

DJoel

Barry is Omnipresent:D

DJoel

Thanks!!!!!

If you would all like the definitive and detailed info about how to MOST accurately align the phase of the sub relative to the mains -- and this is most important with a 2-channel system, but it can't hurt with a HT system -- then check out my updated test CD page, which has very detailed info.

http://www.soundoctor.com/testcd/

email me directly to find out how to get the CD.
Barry

Thanks!!!!!

If you would all like the definitive and detailed info about how to MOST accurately align the phase of the sub relative to the mains -- and this is most important with a 2-channel system, but it can't hurt with a HT system -- then check out my updated test CD page, which has very detailed info.

http://www.soundoctor.com/testcd/

email me directly to find out how to get the CD.

Barry



You see:eek: the heavens open, and you hear a voice;)

Thank you Barry

Djoel

No question about it, Barry is 5 Star great to buy from and work with. He was superb selling me my F113 including the test CD which was instrumental in getting all set up correctly with phase, etc.

I have said before Barry is the best and so glad others have found the same thing.

Two thumbs way up, Barry.

I ordered wires from Barry and he did a great job!

Then he rolled into "what I paid for my subs. and where they were they bought" Then proceeded to lectured me on price shopping, as it was much lower then his prices.

All I wanted was wires, not a lecture!

He could save the Bad dealers (Cheaper)/self important 20 minute accomplishment lecture, for someone interested and who asked.
It boiled down to, pay Barry more, even if Dealers are struggling to move product have cheaper offers.
Not a good experience!
I go around him at JL.
JL is a great company to deal with.

So the lesson here, is to shop prices. The JL manual and staff minus-1, can get your system right.

2 sides to every story, but this was my experience.
Good shopping/luck.

Any news about the replacement of f112 and f113 ?

BUYSED55

Any news about the replacement of f112 and f113 ?

BUYSED55

dont tell me there is a new model coming?

dont tell me there is a new model coming?

Yeah seriously whats the point?

Im planning on getting the F12. might go all out and the F13. at least give me a chance.

Kutlow, there are no plans in the short-term to upgrade the f113 as our resources are currently focused on other projects. Once some of those are done, we will revisit the entire Fathom lineup, but this will probably be in 2011.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

dont tell me there is a new model coming?
Manville answered this same question less than a month ago. Do you really think anything has changed since then? :rolleyes:

I just got a F112 and listened to it. Sounds great, but since I am use to two 12" JL subs in my car i'm not sure if I'd rather have the displacement of a F113 instead. I will probably buy a F113 used and listen side by side.

The only thing is when I do Audessey level calibration on my receiver it sets the F112 to -15db whereas the other speakers are around -4db. So, if I got the F113 I probably wouldn't be taking advantage of the added output yeah?

I just got a F112 and listened to it. Sounds great, but since I am use to two 12" JL subs in my car i'm not sure if I'd rather have the displacement of a F113 instead. I will probably buy a F113 used and listen side by side.

The only thing is when I do Audessey level calibration on my receiver it sets the F112 to -15db whereas the other speakers are around -4db. So, if I got the F113 I probably wouldn't be taking advantage of the added output yeah?

Let me explain the difference...I heard them both in the same room calibrated. I also was allowed to demo w6v2 and w7 in my car when I was into that stuff.

Pete Belasco...Deeper...was the track used to demo all this stuff.

First the car...the 8" w7 woofer in the sealed factory box...downright clean when set up correctly...try to push it past what its capabilities are...it starts to ring...then it distorts. Very little low bass...but it still sounds good when playing the majority of the music types.

12" w6v2 - can function on the same amount of power and play low bass louder and just as clean at the same level...period. Ringing doesn't set in as quickly...

Home - F113 is effortless on the lowest notes and no ringing because it doesn't have to play loud for it's frequency range to be flat. I pushed that thing and it just kept going. $3400 worth of keep going? No. However, a 13w7 in the factory sealed box and a 1000/1 would be close to $2500 (back in my day)...yeah, I still don't understand the other $1000. Well, the ARO...one band? Ok..I could see $2700 + tax.

F112...try to get the same level of low bass as the F113...and it rings. I think folks in here call it mid-bass? Whatever it is...it sounds bad (that is if you really like JL Audio bass). If you eq'd the F112 "mid bass" down and didn't try to push it hard...and never listened to a F113...you would be happy.

I'm ruined...I heard the F113 first...I keep waiting for it to keep going down on audiogon...the best I saw was $1800 for satin black. If it gets to $1500 shipped...I might have to give up my pennies. JL bass is what I'm used to...I honestly can't imagine any other sub having that sound...it's just me.

That is why the F113 was TAS' subwoofer of the year last year. Superb sonic quality coupled with immense output capability (in stereo), tight, fast and clean way down low. I love 'em for that! JL was my sub of choice because I demand clean, fast, tuneful bass that can also play the fast plucked string of an upright bass and reproduce it cleanly without overhang and boom at all and also rock the house off its foundations. Clearly, the F113 was the only sub to go with (or a Gotham, but that is pure insanity that thing is so overwhelming!). I started with one and wanted to balance out my room's bass response. Enter the second sub and never looked back.

For what they give you in terms of pure state of the art in audiophile quality bass and the fit/finish, especially in the gloss black casing, even at $3,400 for what they give you is not bad. That is in pure audiophile terms.

$1,800 for satin black is a steal for this quality bass, in my opinion.

I love how these can move the couch, basically. My fiance' on the other hand... Well, not, so its a bummer sometimes.

That is why the F113 was TAS' subwoofer of the year last year. Superb sonic quality coupled with immense output capability (in stereo), tight, fast and clean way down low. I love 'em for that! JL was my sub of choice because I demand clean, fast, tuneful bass that can also play the fast plucked string of an upright bass and reproduce it cleanly without overhang and boom at all and also rock the house off its foundations. Clearly, the F113 was the only sub to go with (or a Gotham, but that is pure insanity that thing is so overwhelming!). I started with one and wanted to balance out my room's bass response. Enter the second sub and never looked back.

For what they give you in terms of pure state of the art in audiophile quality bass and the fit/finish, especially in the gloss black casing, even at $3,400 for what they give you is not bad. That is in pure audiophile terms.

$1,800 for satin black is a steal for this quality bass, in my opinion.

I love how these can move the couch, basically. My fiance' on the other hand... Well, not, so its a bummer sometimes.

Folks like this guy ^^^^^...yeah, keep reading these types of entries...you will buy the F113. As a matter of fact...stop playing the F112 now and sell it so you can get the best price possible. THe F113 is inevitable...as far as taking advantge of additional output despite your reciever's calibrations...the bass can't be stopped. The F113 truly is that sick. And trust me I've tried to talk myself into other cheaper yet popular pieces...it won't work.

The F113 is a fantastic sub no doubt. The F112 is pretty close. The difference is only 3dB of max output and 1hz extension. I believe RMK on this forum owned both and said the difference was pretty minimal between the two.l

The F113 is a fantastic sub no doubt. The F112 is pretty close. The difference is only 3dB of max output and 1hz extension. I believe RMK on this forum owned both and said the difference was pretty minimal between the two.l

I'm so serious about being able to hear the difference... the salesman was floored to...he initially said the same thing about some slide guitar music he was listening to earlier. Maybe it was the demo track I used...

Manville answered this same question less than a month ago. Do you really think anything has changed since then? :rolleyes:

Companies often do not tell anyone when an updated model is about to hit the floors. It has happened to me many times. For instance when I bought my projector (JVC RS-2) I called JVC and asked if there was a replacement due out anytime soon. Once I bought the RS-2 within a month the news release of the RS-20 came out and I lost 1800.00 for 1 month of enjoyment.
You cant tell me Jl Audio isnt planning the replacement for the Fathom line. Thats only smart business if they want to keep customers. Even subtle changes just as golf club manufactures do is what keeps the revenue going. After all isnt the Fathom line 5 years old?

Companies often do not tell anyone when an updated model is about to hit the floors. It has happened to me many times. For instance when I bought my projector (JVC RS-2) I called JVC and asked if there was a replacement due out anytime soon. Once I bought the RS-2 within a month the news release of the RS-20 came out and I lost 1800.00 for 1 month of enjoyment.
You cant tell me Jl Audio isnt planning the replacement for the Fathom line. Thats only smart business if they want to keep customers. Even subtle changes just as golf club manufactures do is what keeps the revenue going. After all isnt the Fathom line 5 years old?

I have never seen any "mis-information" or "dis-information" originate from JL. If Manville says they are on a 2011 upgrade path for the Fathom line, I'm pretty sure I can believe they're on a 2011 upgrade path for the Fathom line.

Having said that, I will also "editorialize" that they should *probably* be on an earlier upgrade path than that. The competition has not been silent.

Craig

I have never seen any "mis-information" or "dis-information" originate from JL. If Manville says they are on a 2011 upgrade path for the Fathom line, I'm pretty sure I can believe they're on a 2011 upgrade path for the Fathom line.

Having said that, I will also "editorialize" that they should *probably* be on an earlier upgrade path than that. The competition has not been silent.

Craig

Yes the competition are all coming out or just have replaced their line up. I would like to see them make a F115 or a F 118

What would a F115 or F118 give you over a F113? Would the larger driver give lower HZ output?

What would a F115 or F118 give you over a F113? Would the larger driver give lower HZ output?

That all depends on what the designers choose to dial in. Assuming JL stays with the compact box formula, the depth will be determined by the eq and the filtering they apply in the amp. They might chose more depth, more output, or a bit of each. It's always a matter of balancing out the trade-offs.

i'd like to see a dual opposed F213

Home - F113 is effortless on the lowest notes and no ringing because it doesn't have to play loud for it's frequency range to be flat. I pushed that thing and it just kept going. $3400 worth of keep going? No. However, a 13w7 in the factory sealed box and a 1000/1 would be close to $2500 (back in my day)...yeah, I still don't understand the other $1000. Well, the ARO...one band? Ok..I could see $2700 + tax.

F112...try to get the same level of low bass as the F113...and it rings. I think folks in here call it mid-bass? Whatever it is...it sounds bad (that is if you really like JL Audio bass). If you eq'd the F112 "mid bass" down and didn't try to push it hard...and never listened to a F113...you would be happy.

I'm ruined...I heard the F113 first...I keep waiting for it to keep going down on audiogon...the best I saw was $1800 for satin black. If it gets to $1500 shipped...I might have to give up my pennies. JL bass is what I'm used to...I honestly can't imagine any other sub having that sound...it's just me.
Heh, this is why i changed my mind on the f112 and now im looking at the f113. i just want the best. i probably wont even be able to hear the difference( would i ?) in my 12x12 room but to know theres something a tad better out there would bother me. i haven't heard ether of them yet though. i'll have to take a listen soon at my local dealer in newyork.

$1800 for a F113?? what are you waiting for??? can you link me that site please?

Yes the competition are all coming out or just have replaced their line up. I would like to see them make a F115 or a F 118

Who cares about the competition. i want to see them make a sub as powerful as the fathoms at that size. infact, the size alone is what got me looking at this sub. i looked at SVS, epick, ED, and some other ones, but they were all to big for my room. they had smaller subs yes, but they were not as good as the larger ones. i wanted something that went deep in a small box. and this is were i found JL.

Let me explain the difference...I heard them both in the same room calibrated. I also was allowed to demo w6v2 and w7 in my car when I was into that stuff.

Pete Belasco...Deeper...was the track used to demo all this stuff.

First the car...the 8" w7 woofer in the sealed factory box...downright clean when set up correctly...try to push it past what its capabilities are...it starts to ring...then it distorts. Very little low bass...but it still sounds good when playing the majority of the music types.

12" w6v2 - can function on the same amount of power and play low bass louder and just as clean at the same level...period. Ringing doesn't set in as quickly...

Home - F113 is effortless on the lowest notes and no ringing because it doesn't have to play loud for it's frequency range to be flat. I pushed that thing and it just kept going. $3400 worth of keep going? No. However, a 13w7 in the factory sealed box and a 1000/1 would be close to $2500 (back in my day)...yeah, I still don't understand the other $1000. Well, the ARO...one band? Ok..I could see $2700 + tax.

F112...try to get the same level of low bass as the F113...and it rings. I think folks in here call it mid-bass? Whatever it is...it sounds bad (that is if you really like JL Audio bass). If you eq'd the F112 "mid bass" down and didn't try to push it hard...and never listened to a F113...you would be happy.

I'm ruined...I heard the F113 first...I keep waiting for it to keep going down on audiogon...the best I saw was $1800 for satin black. If it gets to $1500 shipped...I might have to give up my pennies. JL bass is what I'm used to...I honestly can't imagine any other sub having that sound...it's just me.
I have two 12w6v2 in my car powered by a 1000/1 so I know exactly what you're talking about.

I'm not at all surprised the F112 can't do lows at the same level as F113, F113 is 1000 more watts and around 1.5-2x the displacement. The ringing though, if in fact it's "mid-bass", is likely because the 100hz+ roll off of the F113 is so much steaper than the F112. Some people, including a few jl reps (rumored), say the ability of the f112 to play higher makes it slightly more musical and easier to mate with speakers. If I saw an F113 for $1,500 I would buy two in a heart beat. For that matter, if I saw a F112 for $1,300 I'd pick up a 2nd. I'll bet you'd be satisfied with the lows of 2xF112. I will have to listen to a F113 my self. Thanks for the comparison.

The F113 is a fantastic sub no doubt. The F112 is pretty close. The difference is only 3dB of max output and 1hz extension. I believe RMK on this forum owned both and said the difference was pretty minimal between the two.l
This makes me wonder why JL didn't just go wtih something like a F115 or F118, like people are talking about right here. I mean, 12" seems to be JL's favorite size so mine as well go all out displacement/lows wise with a 15 or 18. Anywhoo, I'm not going to get the skull compressing SPL levels I do in my car in my apartment so maybe I can live with the "slightly?" reduced output of the F112.

I ordered wires from Barry and he did a great job!

Then he rolled into "what I paid for my subs. and where they were they bought" Then proceeded to lectured me on price shopping, as it was much lower then his prices.

All I wanted was wires, not a lecture!



What the first rule of fight club;)


Djoel

Heh, this is why i changed my mind on the f112 and now im looking at the f113. i just want the best. i probably wont even be able to hear the difference( would i ?) in my 12x12 room but to know theres something a tad better out there would bother me. i haven't heard ether of them yet though. i'll have to take a listen soon at my local dealer in newyork.

$1800 for a F113?? what are you waiting for??? can you link me that site please?

If the room is 12x12 with average cieling height and doesn't open up into another room with large openings (IOW, 4 closed walls with 1 normal sized door), you'd do fine with 2xf110. 2xf113 in that size room will blow dry your hair.

If the room is 12x12 with average cieling height and doesn't open up into another room with large openings (IOW, 4 closed walls with 1 normal sized door), you'd do fine with 2xf110. 2xf113 in that size room will blow dry your hair.

my room is 28 x 24 and it is open to other areas. yesterday, while surfing the tv channels I stumbled on the movie Hulk for few moments. It happened when there was a fight (surprise) going on between militaries and Hulk and the solders were trying to stop him by firing toward him with some sort of sound mega-devices(?) from the top of SUVs- well some of you may know what i am talking about. Well, let me tell you, I was astonished by the way the subwoofers reproduced that sound. It was felt, it was tight and not a bit of smear... and it was loud! I can't think a way to improve that.

I almost forgot... the subwofers are two f113.

my room is 28 x 24 and it is open to other areas. yesterday, while surfing the tv channels I stumbled on the movie Hulk for few moments. It happened when there was a fight (surprise) going on between militaries and Hulk and the solders were trying to stop him by firing toward him with some sort of sound mega-devices(?) from the top of SUVs- well some of you may know what i am talking about. Well, let me tell you, I was astonished by the way the subwoofers reproduced that sound. It was felt, it was tight and not a bit of smear... and it was loud! I can't think a way to improve that.

I almost forgot... the subwofers are two f113.

That adequately describes my 2 F113's, alright. The very reason I bought them over Velodyne, SVS, etc. :D

Again, it is no wonder they were the top pick by Robert Harley in The Absolute Sound. Not only do they move air and a lot of it, but they are also have such fast, tight transient response as well as reaching into the nether world below ground.:eek:

Heh, this is why i changed my mind on the f112 and now im looking at the f113. i just want the best. i probably wont even be able to hear the difference( would i ?) in my 12x12 room but to know theres something a tad better out there would bother me. i haven't heard ether of them yet though. i'll have to take a listen soon at my local dealer in newyork.

$1800 for a F113?? what are you waiting for??? can you link me that site please?

Here's one in gloss for $1800:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1253283809&/JL-Audio-F113-gloss!-blemished

and a satin for $1900:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1253300371&/JL-Audio-Fathom-113-satin-blac

What am I waiting on?

I bought my first set of new speakers without thinking long term: AV123 Strata Minis...great speakers...but too big. I'm trading them for an Arcam AVR 350. I still have to get 5 more speakers (and two for my bedroom)...I like Gallo Acoustics' reference strada (list - $1,000)...I'm getting too deep into this music hobby...it gobbles up money. Because of that...I refuse to spend more than $1500 delivered for a sub. I make a decent living...but I am a working man...and we are in a recession.

If the room is 12x12 with average cieling height and doesn't open up into another room with large openings (IOW, 4 closed walls with 1 normal sized door), you'd do fine with 2xf110. 2xf113 in that size room will blow dry your hair.

Nope, i have no openings. 2 f10's? nah im going all out with this one. you can never have to much bass. if somehow i don't get the F113 the F112 will have to do. future proof baby.

Here's one in gloss for $1800:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1253283809&/JL-Audio-F113-gloss!-blemished

and a satin for $1900:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1253300371&/JL-Audio-Fathom-113-satin-blac

What am I waiting on?

I bought my first set of new speakers without thinking long term: AV123 Strata Minis...great speakers...but too big. I'm trading them for an Arcam AVR 350. I still have to get 5 more speakers (and two for my bedroom)...I like Gallo Acoustics' reference strada (list - $1,000)...I'm getting too deep into this music hobby...it gobbles up money. Because of that...I refuse to spend more than $1500 delivered for a sub. I make a decent living...but I am a working man...and we are in a recession.

Thanks for those links. are they used? how can they sell it for so cheap? (compared to the MSRP anyway)

Yes, yes this HT hobby does cause us to spend money. money that i'll happily spend. if it makes you happy thats all that matters right? i do understand not wanting to spend to much money cause were in a recession.

Im not rich, i make adverage pay. but honestly, im so in love with this hobby that sometimes i dont even see a price. i just see something that i want, then save for awhile and get it.

Thanks for those links. are they used? how can they sell it for so cheap? (compared to the MSRP anyway)

Yes, yes this HT hobby does cause us to spend money. money that i'll happily spend. if it makes you happy thats all that matters right? i do understand not wanting to spend to much money cause were in a recession.

Im not rich, i make adverage pay. but honestly, im so in love with this hobby that sometimes i dont even see a price. i just see something that i want, then save for awhile and get it.

New with a 10 year warranty and free shipping.

I've heard lots of people say "if you ship via UPS they WILL be damaged". That's mainly why I went with a local deal for the f112 instead of having the f113 shipped. Freight should be alright.

I sold a fathom and shipped it via UPS and insured it as well. The unit was damaged in transit. After UPS inspected the unit, their adjuster denied my claim and stated the factory shipping container does not meet their specs. If it does not meet their specs why did they let me ship it? Funny thing is that they are shipping it back to me via UPS. Jl Audio emailed me a PDF file showing it passed FED EX'S standard and that is who they use. I am in the process of fighting them and will take it to small claims court if I do not get it resolved. The UPS adjusters would not even tell me I was denied. I had to find out from UPS Customer Service. They tell me now since I am opening the claim back up that they want me to take photo's of the box, the unit and how it is packed and the shipping label. Now why do I have to take pictures? Didn't the adjuster take any especially since he turned me down? Anyways you see what I am into. Bottom line do NOT send these via UPS!

Manville Smith can you check and see what it would cost me to replace the gloss black cabinet? I will probably need this if it goes to court. :mad: Oh and I ordered a new fathom 113 from my dealer.



When I purchased my F113 it was shipped to via Yellow freight? when I had an issues I send it to JL via FedEx freight, they JL audio shipped it back to me some kind of freight company, not a single issue what so ever...I avoid ups like the plague, and I have been known to send my own FedEx labels which I have an account to people who want to send me an item for free via UPS. No thanks, never know what would brown will do for you, my guess is not much;).

Djoel

I have 2 Fathom 113's and I am running them with the SVS AS EQ-1. I am seeing a 6db boost at 25hz pre-EQ. Should I lower each sub by 3db or 6db to get flat at 25hz, and then run audyssey?

I have 2 Fathom 113's and I am running them with the SVS AS EQ-1. I am seeing a 6db boost at 25hz pre-EQ. Should I lower each sub by 3db or 6db to get flat at 25hz, and then run audyssey?
I'd run the master's ARO first if you haven't already. If it's just around 25hz and not across the whole frequency range then try adjusting the elf trip to -3db (if it's currently at 0). Elf trip on the fathom is an eq band centered around 25hz.

I'd run the master's ARO first if you haven't already. If it's just around 25hz and not across the whole frequency range then try adjusting the elf trip to -3db (if it's currently at 0). Elf trip on the fathom is an eq band centered around 25hz.

I run a dual master system, so is it -3db for each sub? I've been advised not to run ARO with audyssey, so I was not going to, but the elf trip seemed to be tailored to my problem.

I think -3db in the level settings on the receiver will do if you use your LFE out. I'd try elf first. By the way, there should be no problem running ARO and THEN Audyssey. Audyssey's lowest EQ band is 63hz while the fathom is able to correct a spike or dip at a lower frequency. If you're running LFE to the subs why not run master/slave?

I think -3db in the level settings on the receiver will do if you use your LFE out. I'd try elf first. By the way, there should be no problem running ARO and THEN Audyssey. Audyssey's lowest EQ band is 63hz while the fathom is able to correct a spike or dip at a lower frequency. If you're running LFE to the subs why not run master/slave?

From earlier talk here do not run both.

How I zero ARO setup ? Want to have audyssey make all room correction. Some people seem to prefer this way

I wonder if JL might go in the direction of the Dual Opposed Submersive... that would be a very nice upgrade in performance...

From earlier talk here do not run both.


have run both, that's how I have them currently...I took that advice from a thread right on this site...I would need to dig it up, I have a copy at home of the how to, which is very descriptive, and detailed.


Djoel

I think -3db in the level settings on the receiver will do if you use your LFE out. I'd try elf first. By the way, there should be no problem running ARO and THEN Audyssey. Audyssey's lowest EQ band is 63hz while the fathom is able to correct a spike or dip at a lower frequency. If you're running LFE to the subs why not run master/slave?

That about Audyssey's lowest EQ band at 63hz is completely false. The bands that you see when you switch to manual eq have nothing whatsoever to do with Audyssey. They are merely a conventional graphic equalizer. Audyssey works right down to 20hz.

I wonder if JL might go in the direction of the Dual Opposed Submersive... that would be a very nice upgrade in performance...

that and drop the HP filters would be sweet

that and drop the HP filters would be sweet

Even better would a switchable filter or a variable trim control.

And more than one band EQ.

DJoel

that and drop the HP filters would be sweet

Agreed.... they would do well to look into that design....

I wonder if JL might go in the direction of the Dual Opposed Submersive... that would be a very nice upgrade in performance...
I think the cabinet would need to nearly double in size to accommodate dual opposed drivers. That would reduce the "size" advantage the single driver cabinet has.

Craig

a couple days ago I posted about UPS damaging a F113 that I sold and shipped and insured. I wanted to let everyone know about the outstanding support I am receiving from Jl Audio in this situation. They emailed me a PDF file showing the test that was conducted by FED EX and approved. I am fighting UPS on this and will report the outcome.

Your preaching to the choir;) Just kidding I'm glad you're getting the ammo you need for your battle.

I WILL AVOID UPS FOREVER. IF YOU GUYS ONLY HEARD THE LAME EXCUSES THEY BEEN MAKING. GET THIS...THEY INSPECTED THE UNIT AND REFUSED MY CLAIM BUT DIDN'T EVEN TAKE ANY PICTURES OR MAIL ME ANYTHING TO SUPPORT THEIR DECISION. NOW WHEN I RECEIVE THE UNIT BACK I HAVE TO TAKE PICS FOR THEM AND FORWARD BACK TO TRY TO GET APPROVED. I ALSO FIRED OFF A LETTER TO THE AL. ATTORNEY GENERALS OFFICE. WILL GO TO SMALL CLAIMS COURT AS A LAST RESORT. OH AND I WILL REFUSE THE CC CHARGE FOR THE SHIPPING AS WELL. :D[/QUOTE]

Good luck

Keep us posted

Djoel

I think the cabinet would need to nearly double in size to accommodate dual opposed drivers. That would reduce the "size" advantage the single driver cabinet has.

Craig

yup, they need to take the f-212, lay it on it's side, put a driver on each end and get rid of the hp filter

or they could leave it standing up and build little stilts on the bottom

now what would be something is if that new svs sealed sub coming out uses dual opposed 16.5" drivers :cool:

you know what would look really bad a$$ is if JL made a dual opposed f-213 with a big McIntosh type amp that ran longways across the center with one of those big blue glowing analog meters surrounded by black glass and the whole amp sunk into that piano gloss finish of the sub :)

http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee42/sub-woofer/macamp.jpg

How I zero ARO setup ? Want to have audyssey make all room correction. Some people seem to prefer this way

bump

That about Audyssey's lowest EQ band at 63hz is completely false. The bands that you see when you switch to manual eq have nothing whatsoever to do with Audyssey. They are merely a conventional graphic equalizer. Audyssey works right down to 20hz.

That's what I thought too. I compared MulteqXT with my own manual EQ on a BFD and they sounded practically identical. I definitely had some corrections below 63Hz.

bump

I'm not sure you can "factory reset" the ARO other than using the defeat button to turn it off.

I would give JL a call to see if they can advise

I'm not sure you can "factory reset" the ARO other than using the defeat button to turn it off.

I would give JL a call to see if they can advise

If use defeat it disables audio level knob yes ?

If use defeat it disables audio level knob yes ?

I don't believe so. Defeat only turns off ARO. Setting the "Level Mode" switch from variable to reference would defeat the "Master Level" knob, but this is used for allowing your receiver to control the sub level - it should have no relationship to ARO and/or ARO Defeat.

How I zero ARO setup ? Want to have audyssey make all room correction. Some people seem to prefer this way

Edited on 2009/08/20:
Support at JL Audio seems to think that the info that I had previously posted is incorrect. So I am retracting it for now, until I have confirmation.

Sorry

Edited on 2009/08/20:
Support at JL Audio seems to think that the info that I had previously posted is incorrect. So I am retracting it for now, until I have confirmation.

Sorry

What did u write ? just curious

bump

Yes, wouldn't you just use the defeat button???

Yes, wouldn't you just use the defeat button???

If I am not wrong defeat makes a red diode emit disturbs :P

When I purchased my F113 it was shipped to via Yellow freight? when I had an issues I send it to JL via FedEx freight, they JL audio shipped it back to me some kind of freight company, not a single issue what so ever...I avoid ups like the plague, and I have been known to send my own FedEx labels which I have an account to people who want to send me an item for free via UPS. No thanks, never know what would brown will do for you, my guess is not much;).

Djoel

In my recent experience FedEx is no better...

http://gallery.me.com/ronalcasid#100008

In my recent experience FedEx is no better...

http://gallery.me.com/ronalcasid#100008

Is that the original packaging?

In my recent experience FedEx is no better...

http://gallery.me.com/ronalcasid#100008


Thats just devestating Ron... some beautiful S1.4's ruined... :(

Good luck with the repair.... luckily it was only the driver 'N grill and not the finish from the looks there.... ?

Is that the original packaging?

Yup

How much power does this sub really use? I was told by an authorized dealer that this amp only uses 800 watts, and that the difference between that and the 2500 are the reserves. Is this true?

If I am not wrong defeat makes a red diode emit disturbs :P

It does. Nice feature is you can dim or turn off panel lighting. Not nice is defeat is a soft button. Loose power and it resets back to un-defeated.

Have any you guys had the opportunity to compare the F113 to the F212. Is there that much of a difference? Looking at JL's own website when it comes to Frequency response there doesn't seem to be much difference.

There seems to be some general concensus that the F113 has more usable output than the F112 does regardless of the frequency charts. Certainly, the sub has far more power reserves and will play louder. I have two of them and the 113's can and will let you know just how much bottom end there really is.

Goes all the way to the center of the Earth with authority when used in pairs, that is so quick, and moves so much air... ahhhhhh.

Have any you guys had the opportunity to compare the F113 to the F212. Is there that much of a difference? Looking at JL's own website when it comes to Frequency response there doesn't seem to be much difference.

There seems to be some general concensus that the F113 has more usable output than the F112 does regardless of the frequency charts. Certainly, the sub has far more power reserves and will play louder. I have two of them and the 113's can and will let you know just how much bottom end there really is.

Goes all the way to the center of the Earth with authority when used in pairs, that is so quick, and moves so much air... ahhhhhh.

It's obvious that the f113 has more output than the f112. That question was about the f113 vs the f212.

I saw a couple of the guys talking about UPS damage on the previous page. I think there should be a website fully devoted to rating how destroyed your package was when you got it and just how badly UPS or Fedex screws you by denying your claim. We could give prizes for the best of the worst.

This is not on the Subject of JL or subs,but I just had to tell you my recent UPS story. Last week I shipped out a high end Blu-ray player to a customer double boxed. Somewhere along the shipping route a UPS driver must have spilled something all over the boxes so he proceeded in removing just the player and remote and literally throwing them into a massive square box with NO padding whatsoever (he didn't even have the decency to put the power chord or manual in the box). By the time the player got to the customer not only was the player sticky, but the chassis was twisted like a pretzel because it was bouncing around so violently in the box. Needless to say the customer was very angry because he thought that we originally shipped it like that. After a ton of convincing him that we would never do something like that and sending him another one right away he finally calmed down.

Long story short we got our claim denied because UPS said that the packaging was insufficient....If I could only get my hands on that the driver!

It's obvious that the f113 has more output than the f112. That question was about the f113 vs the f212.

This is correct. I was asking about the F113 vs the F212.

I saw a couple of the guys talking about UPS damage on the previous page. I think there should be a website fully devoted to rating how destroyed your package was when you got it and just how badly UPS or Fedex screws you by denying your claim. We could give prizes for the best of the worst.

This is not on the Subject of JL or subs,but I just had to tell you my recent UPS story. Last week I shipped out a high end Blu-ray player to a customer double boxed. Somewhere along the shipping route a UPS driver must have spilled something all over the boxes so he proceeded in removing just the player and remote and literally throwing them into a massive square box with NO padding whatsoever (he didn't even have the decency to put the power chord or manual in the box). By the time the player got to the customer not only was the player sticky, but the chassis was twisted like a pretzel because it was bouncing around so violently in the box. Needless to say the customer was very angry because he thought that we originally shipped it like that. After a ton of convincing him that we would never do something like that and sending him another one right away he finally calmed down.

Long story short we got our claim denied because UPS said that the packaging was insufficient....If I could only get my hands on that the driver!

people have to start taking these shipping companies to court

they are getting away with murder

I saw a couple of the guys talking about UPS damage on the previous page. I think there should be a website fully devoted to rating how destroyed your package was when you got it and just how badly UPS or Fedex screws you by denying your claim. We could give prizes for the best of the worst.

This is not on the Subject of JL or subs,but I just had to tell you my recent UPS story. Last week I shipped out a high end Blu-ray player to a customer double boxed. Somewhere along the shipping route a UPS driver must have spilled something all over the boxes so he proceeded in removing just the player and remote and literally throwing them into a massive square box with NO padding whatsoever (he didn't even have the decency to put the power chord or manual in the box). By the time the player got to the customer not only was the player sticky, but the chassis was twisted like a pretzel because it was bouncing around so violently in the box. Needless to say the customer was very angry because he thought that we originally shipped it like that. After a ton of convincing him that we would never do something like that and sending him another one right away he finally calmed down.

Long story short we got our claim denied because UPS said that the packaging was insufficient....If I could only get my hands on that the driver!


UPS = Unbelievably Poor Service. UPS has stunk up the place more and more over the past 10 years, worse than ever. I will do anything not to ship by them.

Both my F113's came via FedEX and both were just fine and dandy. Hardly any wear on the boxes at all.

I am aware FedEX has had its issues with folks too, but for me its been night vs. day with them vs. UPS.

This is correct. I was asking about the F113 vs the F212.


Gee, sorry... almost nobody ever asks about the 212. the 212 being a smaller version of the Gotham, and being dual woofer driven, it should have more usable output than a single F113, naturally. I think its bottom end is close enough and with the fact the 212's 12" drivers are updated from the 112's, if I recall, it should rock your world just fine.

I wonder when JL Audio will ever come out with their bookshelf speakers to go along with their bad ass subs? I got to hear them at Cedia a while back, but still hush hush on the rep side of any release date.

I just love the look of the JL subs, and I thought they could do a way better job on their actual speaker design. Their tweeter/midrage right in the middle of their bookshelf/on-wall speakers is hideous. That thing is also gonna get trashed by everyone out there with little kiddies running around.

If I'm not mistaken JL pulled out of this years Cedia show which is a bummer because I always love stopping by.

Would one F112 be sufficient for a 2,000 ft3 sealed room?

Normal listening volume is -10dB below reference.

Is that 2 cubic feet, or squared? Cubic feet, it'll be plenty.Mine is actually 1800 cu ft, and open to the rest of the house, and does a decent job.2000 sq ft will be a problem.





I have a question guys. If I unplug my sub for an extended period of time, will it retain its settings once I plug it back in?

What am I missing in HT (Movies) 5hz to circa 20hz?
I read about a few subs digging low, but what information is there.
Just pressure??
I am not aware of any instruments.

So if someone who has a low digging sub could describe what I might be missing would be great, below 5 Hz and 20 Hz
(3200 cubic room)

Thanks!

I believe they are referring to visceral reponse to the sub. The <20Hz frequency are not heard; they are felt.

UPS = Unbelievably Poor Service. UPS has stunk up the place more and more over the past 10 years, worse than ever. I will do anything not to ship by them.

Both my F113's came via FedEX and both were just fine and dandy. Hardly any wear on the boxes at all.

I am aware FedEX has had its issues with folks too, but for me its been night vs. day with them vs. UPS.

Wanted to update my story. I shipped a pristine F113 in the original shipping container. It was insured and I taped 4 huge fragile signs on all four sides. Unit arrived and was damaged by UPS. UPS arranged for pick up and inspection. 24 hours later I called and was given a politicians answer if my claim was approved. After 3 calls per day for 4 days I finally had a person tell me the claim was denied due to the shipping container not meeting UPS code. I was told I would receive a report in the next couple of days. This was over 6 weeks ago and I never received the report. When the unit was en route back to me it became lost in shipping. For 3 weeks UPS could not locate the unit nor would they approve my claim now for lost item. Finally a supervisor with the UPS insurance company told me she was sending one final email and if the item could not be located or a response back in 48 hours she would approve my claim. 48 hours later I call and the claim was approved for lost item. Now while waiting a week and sending numerous faxes showing original receipt and other things I call back to see where my check was. Then I am told the unit was found and claim now denied. I file complaint with AL Attorney Generals Office. During this time Jl Audio and my dealer were outstanding in getting me a pdf document showing that FED EX designed the carton and it was sufficient. After calling and threatening a lawsuit my claim was finally approved for damaged item.

If any of you mail this item use FED EX since they designed the carton and there will be no claims as to the deficiency of the factory container. I will never use UPS again if I can avoid it.

Kutlow - I had a similar experience with UPS a couple of years ago. UPS denied the claim due to "inadequate packing". It seems it's their policy to deny claims but I just simply threatened to handle the issue through small claims court if they didn't resolve and they promptly approved it. You just need to push back on them. This happened to me twice actually... both times they approved after I threatened to handle this in court.

Wanted to update my story. I shipped a pristine F113 in the original shipping container. It was insured and I taped 4 huge fragile signs on all four sides. Unit arrived and was damaged by UPS. UPS arranged for pick up and inspection. 24 hours later I called and was given a politicians answer if my claim was approved. After 3 calls per day for 4 days I finally had a person tell me the claim was denied due to the shipping container not meeting UPS code. I was told I would receive a report in the next couple of days. This was over 6 weeks ago and I never received the report. When the unit was en route back to me it became lost in shipping. For 3 weeks UPS could not locate the unit nor would they approve my claim now for lost item. Finally a supervisor with the UPS insurance company told me she was sending one final email and if the item could not be located or a response back in 48 hours she would approve my claim. 48 hours later I call and the claim was approved for lost item. Now while waiting a week and sending numerous faxes showing original receipt and other things I call back to see where my check was. Then I am told the unit was found and claim now denied. I file complaint with AL Attorney Generals Office. During this time Jl Audio and my dealer were outstanding in getting me a pdf document showing that FED EX designed the carton and it was sufficient. After calling and threatening a lawsuit my claim was finally approved for damaged item.

If any of you mail this item use FED EX since they designed the carton and there will be no claims as to the deficiency of the factory container. I will never use UPS again if I can avoid it.

Little eye candy for you guys.. feedback is appreciated! :)


http://wayhxg.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pn3B643BZLqcrYddNzgrlFjvyUirmIvzfvDhMkeCffIxS3oT0y3bSb-RrTWUh3q_6lCxa3SaVCzK1bAnfPejrGg/DSCN1065.JPG

http://wayhxg.bay.livefilestore.com/y1p0O5pElGCaeqLZYkOLG0lbiG2J3BmH3ZVyTZ6DsbA6SiQCGIHvt8YJyo3_ 1eQmjpedUPIeFZ4_fe44gitxXkSUw/DSCN1063.JPG

http://wayhxg.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pzx3LgHmFEUkg63iaYaY5nLaOwMgfMDmSETducfKy6Ly3OY4Re99Erjt30 BIN1Lie7ulmPIoEuPqUbYf-ilfNfA/DSCN1057.JPG

http://wayhxg.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pbo_IGRawhoyYqHrWfbJJu7mHPP07Z05TEjdFKFHN2vlEaJhirjNMZ6riB 7CpjFSIj9JQTUDM7T3NjB2pBVnfNQ/DSCN1064.JPG

Wanted to update my story. I shipped a pristine F113 in the original shipping container. It was insured and I taped 4 huge fragile signs on all four sides. Unit arrived and was damaged by UPS. UPS arranged for pick up and inspection. 24 hours later I called and was given a politicians answer if my claim was approved. After 3 calls per day for 4 days I finally had a person tell me the claim was denied due to the shipping container not meeting UPS code. I was told I would receive a report in the next couple of days. This was over 6 weeks ago and I never received the report. When the unit was en route back to me it became lost in shipping. For 3 weeks UPS could not locate the unit nor would they approve my claim now for lost item. Finally a supervisor with the UPS insurance company told me she was sending one final email and if the item could not be located or a response back in 48 hours she would approve my claim. 48 hours later I call and the claim was approved for lost item. Now while waiting a week and sending numerous faxes showing original receipt and other things I call back to see where my check was. Then I am told the unit was found and claim now denied. I file complaint with AL Attorney Generals Office. During this time Jl Audio and my dealer were outstanding in getting me a pdf document showing that FED EX designed the carton and it was sufficient. After calling and threatening a lawsuit my claim was finally approved for damaged item.

If any of you mail this item use FED EX since they designed the carton and there will be no claims as to the deficiency of the factory container. I will never use UPS again if I can avoid it.

What a nightmare....

Little eye candy for you guys.. feedback is appreciated! :)

Sweet! That's looks like an awesome system for both music and HT, Tony. Enjoy! (I'm sure you are!)

Craig

Very nice setup there Tony. Looks very similar in layout to mine.

Little eye candy for you guys.. feedback is appreciated! :)


Are those wall treatments "realtraps" and did you notice a big difference in response after putting them in? Real nice looking HT. Congrats.

Tony that is a very nice set up. Can you take a picture of the front screenwall with the lights on. I want to see how far back you went with the black. I love the speaker look and the walls. Awesome set up.

Tony that is a very nice set up. Can you take a picture of the front screenwall with the lights on. I want to see how far back you went with the black. I love the speaker look and the walls. Awesome set up.

The front, back and ceiling are all black. The side wall is the color you see on the pic. I'm also using black 2inch 2x4 panels every 24 inches along the side walls and 4 inch 2x4 panels on the back wall.

Are those wall treatments "realtraps" and did you notice a big difference in response after putting them in? Real nice looking HT. Congrats.

I'm using OC 705 2x4 2 inch and I wrapped them myself. Real Traps uses the same stuff.

I see an authorized dealer where I buy my Mcintosh equipment is having a Sept JL sub sale Manufacturers Forums - JL Audio at audioaficionado.org 30% off.
Good start point [If looking for a JL sub!

Also as a owner of multi JL subs, how does it compare to the new Submersive from someone who might still own a JL but has compared both?
I know the Submersive digs deeper, but is it as tuneful for music as a
JL113/112?

I am interested in both subs.

Thanks

It the shipper accepts the package for the delivery they are acknowledging tha packaging is sufficient! Do not let them get away with denying claims. Threaten court or the state attorney general's office.

I see an authorized dealer where I buy my Mcintosh equipment is having a Sept JL sub sale Manufacturers Forums - JL Audio at audioaficionado.org 30% off.
Good start point [f looking for a JL sub!

Also as a owner of multi JL subs, how does it compare to the new Submersive from someone who might still own a JL but has compared both?
I know the Submersive digs deeper, but is it as tuneful for music as a
JL113/112?

I am interested in both subs.

Thanks

Sounds like a good deal. How does the warranty stay valid? I thought JL invalidates the warranty for mail order sales.

I spoke to Ivan messer. I believe he takes your order and the drop ships to you via JL. BTW, I asked his Price. It was 30% off list, plus $130 shipping plus 2% credit card surcharge.

I recently went to my local audio dealer. I got the JL f113 for 40% off list. The price was so good I bought two.

Fellas - you shouldn't talk about pricing on the thread..

No numbers were discussed. Merely Percentages.

What's the best way to hook up two JL's. Should I set them as master/slave or y the LFE out put and run each as a master?

Any Jl owners?

I would take a look through this thread via the search tab. This has been discussed in depth.

You should try this (http://audioaficionado.org/jl-audio/) forum as well, as there many avid and active JL owners. There is even a thread discussing setup almost exclusively.

What's the best way to hook up two JL's. Should I set them as master/slave or y the LFE out put and run each as a master?

Depends on who you talk to. Some prefer one way, others the second. I run them on the second method. I do not care for the master/slave option and run them individually. My reference receiver allows for two subs so I run them on their own and programmed individually.

Just my preference. You'll probably find 5 buys going the other way, though. It's your call.

Two of them just rock, however. :D

I spoke to Ivan messer. I believe he takes your order and the drop ships to you via JL. BTW, I asked his Price. It was 30% off list, plus $130 shipping plus 2% credit card surcharge.

I recently went to my local audio dealer. I got the JL f113 for 40% off list. The price was so good I bought two.

My experience:
I paid cash and Jl dropped shipped item to my home from Ivan Messer company, $1200 off JL112 gloss from MRSP. Full warranty (new). No tax or shipping. Or he ate the cost.Ivan is a big negotiator.
But he is in it to make money, so every day is a different deal.
AA foum usually tells his starting point.

My local dealer sold me a new JL113 for $2200 out the door, new Black gloss which included tax.
This info will help someone to get a good deal in the future just knowing what is possible...
Plus it shows Jl prices are closer to ID companies then people think.

What's the best way to hook up two JL's. Should I set them as master/slave or y the LFE out put and run each as a master?


Run each as a master.

If I run them both as Master, how do I hook them up? Y RCA cable or do I use XLR cable and daisy chain them?

What's the best way to hook up two JL's. Should I set them as master/slave or y the LFE out put and run each as a master?
First, I would check with JL to ensure both of your subs are running the same firmware. If they are not, get one of them updated to match the other.

In terms of how to hook them up, there are advantages and disadvantages of each approach. With Master/Slave, you will be perfectly gain-matched. Also, ARO, (or any other EQ you use), will will run on both subs at the same time, and will EQ the "combined" response of both subs, which is the response you actually hear.

With a Y- cable, you can run ARO individually, which may, or may not, work out better, (it depends on the combined result). However, if you have two large peaks, running ARO separately may bring them both down. Also, you'll be able to "level-match", which some people feel is superior to gain-matching, (personally, I feel gain-matching is the more logical approach). Also, if the two subs are not equidistant to the LP, you can use the phase control on one of them, (probably the closer one), to "time" the two outputs so they arrive simultaneously.

When I had my dual F112's, I ran them Master/Slave, but then, they were equi-distant to the LP.

Good luck.

Craig

First, I would check with JL to ensure both of your subs are running the same firmware. If they are not, get one of them updated to match the other.

In terms of how to hook them up, there are advantages and disadvantages of each approach. With Master/Slave, you will be perfectly gain-matched. Also, ARO, (or any other EQ you use), will will run on both subs at the same time, and will EQ the "combined" response of both subs, which is the response you actually hear.

With a Y- cable, you can run ARO individually, which may, or may not, work out better, (it depends on the combined result). However, if you have two large peaks, running ARO separately may bring them both down. Also, you'll be able to "level-match", which some people feel is superior to gain-matching, (personally, I feel gain-matching is the more logical approach). Also, if the two subs are not equidistant to the LP, you can use the phase control on one of them, (probably the closer one), to "time" the two outputs so they arrive simultaneously.

When I had my dual F112's, I ran them Master/Slave, but then, they were equi-distant to the LP.

Good luck.

Craig

Craig is right. My situation is the latter one described. My two subs are not equidistant by any means. So, I followed the individual set up of both subs ARO and set the phase appropriately for the closest speaker near each sub and the results are fantastic. I can not locate either sub in any instance in my room and the response is super all the way down to the nether regions.

I could not be happier. So, Craig is completely correct as it depends on your set up. I am one that prefers level matching to gain matching, which, again, is the right way to go in my instance. Yours may be the former set up.

Enjoy.

At Reference Master volume on JL 113's, my AVR's sub level (meter) is very low when leveled with my other speakers (5.2 system at 80db's)

Would I be better off setting the master volume of the JL's, to circa 25% (JL's Variable setting vs Reference)
and have more AVR sub level adjustment with the test tones, or is it all the same, if a SP meter is used ?

The AVR is at 3 clicks up from the bottom of the entire scale, using test tones and SP meter and set at JL's Reference setting instead of variable.

Thanks.

I would like to know is anyone using the audyssey sub eq unit that is now available with there fathoms? I'm looking at getting the unit but would love to hear from people who have one and there impressions on the unit.

Thanks

At Reference Master volume on JL 113's, my AVR's sub level (meter) is very low when leveled with my other speakers (5.2 system at 80db's)

Would I be better off setting the master volume of the JL's, to circa 25% (JL's Variable setting vs Reference)
and have more AVR sub level adjustment with the test tones, or is it all the same, if a SP meter is used ?

The AVR is at 3 clicks up from the bottom of the entire scale, using test tones and SP meter and set at JL's Reference setting instead of variable.

Thanks.

As long as you're not *at* the end of the range, it probably won't make much difference in the sound. If you *are* at the extreme end of the range, then you should definitely adjust the volume control on the sub to get you into the range.

The only other eason to do this would be if you are having a problem with Auto-On sensing. If the signal from the AVR is too low, the sub(s) might not sense it and not turn on. In that case, raising the trim level will send a stronger signal and activate the Auto-On sensing.

Craig

I would like to know is anyone using the audyssey sub eq unit that is now available with there fathoms? I'm looking at getting the unit but would love to hear from people who have one and there impressions on the unit.

Thanks

Is anybody us the Audyssey EQ at all??

As long as you're not *at* the end of the range, it probably won't make much difference in the sound. If you *are* at the extreme end of the range, then you should definitely adjust the volume control on the sub to get you into the range.

The only other eason to do this would be if you are having a problem with Auto-On sensing. If the signal from the AVR is too low, the sub(s) might not sense it and not turn on. In that case, raising the trim level will send a stronger signal and activate the Auto-On sensing.

Craig

Thanks.

Unless this Messer dude is buying a truck load or subs JL does not drop ship especially out of a dealers territory unless there is a really good reason.

BTW I think it is against trade laws to have a credit card surcharge. I even think it is in thier merchant agreement. Don't confuse this with PayPal fees.

Jl If you monitor this thread you will see we are waiting on a new model Fathom to replace the F113. Develop a new Fathom Line and cause a stir. How about a F115? :D

Jl If you monitor this thread you will see we are waiting on a new model Fathom to replace the F113. Develop a new Fathom Line and cause a stir. How about a F115? :D

Because..... why? The F113 is a monster now. It has been just about anybody who is anybody's sub of the year over the past few years and just smokes. Short of the Gotham, it is the ballsiest, best sounding sub I have yet to hear and for a price that is astoundingly good. I have not heard a sub that can crank it out like they can and at the same time reproduce shockingly tuneful, quick, detailed bass when called upon, as well. Robert Harley was dead right on target about these subs in TAS.

In tandem, they just about move my street address when I let 'em rip.

I can understand updating for the sake of updating, but these are just plain knockouts, now.

Keep telling yourself...I bought the right sub; I bought the right sub; I bought the right sub. Awhh, soothing isn't it.

Cheers :D

Keep telling yourself...I bought the right sub; I bought the right sub; I bought the right sub. Awhh, soothing isn't it.

Cheers :D

I believe so, or I would not have shelled out the cash for them. I looked long and hard before I made my decision. Some folks, it's flat out balls, other folks, its finesse' yet depth; me, I am both camps. It has to do both or not at all which is why I lived without one for so many years. The F113's are superbly articulate, fast, with exceptional transient response, respond with superb depth to subterranean levels, dynamically intense, etc., etc. ad nauseum. Basically, for me at least, the -as-close-to-perfect sub as I could hope for. Short of the Gotham's.

After reading Robert Harley's review of them, it sold the deal, for me. I went, listened, was exceptionally impressed with what they did on my reference recordings and movies and determined to obtain them. Never been sorry for one nano second, that I did.

Everybody's got their bug and others I know dislike 'em. Cool. That's why they make bezillions of different designs, models, sizes, shapes and kinds. Something for everybody.

Shake, rattle, and roll on.

The F113 is one damn solid sub that has many singing it's praises. No doubt a great sub...it's just that so many get upgradeitis more often than others.

Not to mention it pairs nicely with the SSP800.. ;)

I believe so, or I would not have shelled out the cash for them. I looked long and hard before I made my decision. Some folks, it's flat out balls, other folks, its finesse' yet depth; me, I am both camps. It has to do both or not at all which is why I lived without one for so many years. The F113's are superbly articulate, fast, with exceptional transient response, respond with superb depth to subterranean levels, dynamically intense, etc., etc. ad nauseum. Basically, for me at least, the -as-close-to-perfect sub as I could hope for. Short of the Gotham's.

After reading Robert Harley's review of them, it sold the deal, for me. I went, listened, was exceptionally impressed with what they did on my reference recordings and movies and determined to obtain them. Never been sorry for one nano second, that I did.

Everybody's got their bug and others I know dislike 'em. Cool. That's why they make bezillions of different designs, models, sizes, shapes and kinds. Something for everybody.

Shake, rattle, and roll on.

That away Tony spread the Gosphel brother!

F112/3 the best sounding, sealed enclosure, small footprint sub on the planet!

Note cheapest was not on the above list though however on Audiogon there are a few people selling the same pair of subs they no longer need, or they are downsizing, or going to two channel for over a year now :rolleyes:

I believe so, or I would not have shelled out the cash for them. I looked long and hard before I made my decision. Some folks, it's flat out balls, other folks, its finesse' yet depth; me, I am both camps. It has to do both or not at all which is why I lived without one for so many years. The F113's are superbly articulate, fast, with exceptional transient response, respond with superb depth to subterranean levels, dynamically intense, etc., etc. ad nauseum. Basically, for me at least, the -as-close-to-perfect sub as I could hope for. Short of the Gotham's.

After reading Robert Harley's review of them, it sold the deal, for me. I went, listened, was exceptionally impressed with what they did on my reference recordings and movies and determined to obtain them. Never been sorry for one nano second, that I did.

Everybody's got their bug and others I know dislike 'em. Cool. That's why they make bezillions of different designs, models, sizes, shapes and kinds. Something for everybody.

Shake, rattle, and roll on.

Look I too think these are great sub woofers and currently have two. As you know technology keeps getting better and better. Yes when these first came out a few years ago they were awesome and still are. The fact of the matter is, it is time for a new driver period. Check out Mark Seatons new Terraform and the Terraform XL that are coming out. Yes they are larger is size but hey it is just a taste of whats in the pipeline. I don't know of any audio or video company that can sit on a design for 3 plus years and not develop a new and improved unit. Take this thread for instance prior to me making this post. It was dead as a door nail.

Maybe Jl is onto clearing out drivers since they posted this on their site:

http://mobile.jlaudio.com/jlaudio_pages.php?page_id=285

I personally think a F115 would be awesome. It would outperform the 113 and not have to be driven as hard. Kinda like a big block chevy pulling a boat verses a small block. More torque.

Since I bought my first F113 JVC has went from a RS1 to the RS 2 to the RS20 and now the rs 25 in the video projectors. Dont kid yourselves you too want something better. I wont mention names but I know of several people on this forum who shelled out for 4 F 113's who have now sold and went with the Mark Seaton Submersives. Yes on a small footprint the Jl is awesome but it would only add a few more inches to create a F115.

Jl If you monitor this thread you will see we are waiting on a new model Fathom to replace the F113. Develop a new Fathom Line and cause a stir. How about a F115? :D

I think JL Audio tools up for 13” subwoofers over the industry standard 15” so car audio fabricators can fit two drivers side by side in the average vehicle better.
Have you considered JL Audio’s F212?

glennQ

I think JL Audio tools up for 13” subwoofers over the industry standard 15” so car audio fabricators can fit two drivers side by side in the average vehicle better.
Have you considered JL Audio’s F212?

glennQ

yes but then you are talking an insane amount of money. Go demo a Mark Seaton Submersive that sells for 2000 and tell me how many F212'S you want to buy. :D

I think 2 x F113 will outperform a singe F212 for a tad more dollars.

Again if size and looks are not an issue and you want you chest to rattle as well as you pant legs to flap in the breeze there are other alternative.

However IF looks, size and flexible performance [music and HT] are top concerns the JLs are tough to beat.

Look I too think these are great sub woofers and currently have two. As you know technology keeps getting better and better. Yes when these first came out a few years ago they were awesome and still are. The fact of the matter is, it is time for a new driver period. Check out Mark Seatons new Terraform and the Terraform XL that are coming out. Yes they are larger is size but hey it is just a taste of whats in the pipeline. I don't know of any audio or video company that can sit on a design for 3 plus years and not develop a new and improved unit. Take this thread for instance prior to me making this post. It was dead as a door nail.

Maybe Jl is onto clearing out drivers since they posted this on their site:

http://mobile.jlaudio.com/jlaudio_pages.php?page_id=285

I personally think a F115 would be awesome. It would outperform the 113 and not have to be driven as hard. Kinda like a big block chevy pulling a boat verses a small block. More torque.

Since I bought my first F113 JVC has went from a RS1 to the RS 2 to the RS20 and now the rs 25 in the video projectors. Dont kid yourselves you too want something better. I wont mention names but I know of several people on this forum who shelled out for 4 F 113's who have now sold and went with the Mark Seaton Submersives. Yes on a small footprint the Jl is awesome but it would only add a few more inches to create a F115.

Submerssives are huge, ugly and well, not my cup o' tea. Perhaps, JL needs a new approach. Perhaps, not. Each mfr approachs a particular problem with a different idea. Remember, one of the superb attributes of the JL's is that they offer incredible articulation and tonality along with killer bottom ends. The larger the driver, the more mass involved and the harder it is to move it the opposite direction. Remember, with JL's roll foam technology, the woofer is basically the same as others 15" sub size, but with lower overall mass allowing it to move more freely.

For me, the fathom fills my bass bill more than I could have ever dreamed. They practically push out the walls in my room on some tracks and appear to do so wih no apparent strain. I suppose if you are in to 120 dB bass, well, maybe a whole room of submerssives will suffice.

The JL's are simply well engineered, gorgeous speakers that befit a nice room dedicated to more than just large moving drivers.

Don't get me wrong, the mfr should always keep improving their products, absolutely. I just see, for me, no need to do so. No, I am not in an upgrade-itis mode involving my subs, at all and I can happily live with the superb bass I am enjoying for a very long time, indeed.

A F113 is actually a 13.5 in driver. So a F115 would be that much larger but it would go deeper and with ease. This would also bring back the "buzz" that Jl loves so much. A F115 would make many people like me have to upgrade. :D

I see there are several F113's for sale on the 'gon. Has anyone purchase their sub from there? What are the implications if you run into a problem? I'm assuming the warranty is non-transferable. While it would be a stretch, I would be willing the pay the price they are going for on Audiogon but I don't know that I would shell out the money for MSRP.

I appreciate any responses.

Thanks,
Mike

I see there are several F113's for sale on the 'gon. Has anyone purchase their sub from there? What are the implications if you run into a problem? I'm assuming the warranty is non-transferable. While it would be a stretch, I would be willing the pay the price they are going for on Audiogon but I don't know that I would shell out the money for MSRP.

I appreciate any responses.

Thanks,
Mike


Mike,

To my knowledge, JL does not transfer warranties. If you buy from a non-approved dealer, JL states they won't cover the waranty as they can not guarantee what you buy is actually a JL Audio product. So, they state.

Unless you buy from a qualified dealer, everything is a gamble. That does not mean that the guy you are working with to buy a used one is not up and up and is selling what he says it is. Just go into whatever you do with your eyes open and forewarned. Caveat Emptor.

The larger the driver, the more mass involved and the harder it is to move it the opposite direction.

the larger the driver, the less it has to move. and with dual drivers they are moving even less

the whole "smaller is more musical than larger" driver thing is a thing of the past

that's not a problem with modern drivers

Has anyone purchase their sub from there?

I got mine from Audiogon, F113, but it was an authorized dealer, local to my area, selling at way below MSRP. Not sure why, but I see lot's of dealers moving gear on Audiogon at good prices, but not through their store front. I also bought a pre/pro this way, great price, and when it went bad in the first few weeks, the dealer replaced it under warrenty, even though he sold it through a bogus name for about 40% off MSRP.

I see there are several F113's for sale on the 'gon. Has anyone purchase their sub from there? What are the implications if you run into a problem? I'm assuming the warranty is non-transferable. While it would be a stretch, I would be willing the pay the price they are going for on Audiogon but I don't know that I would shell out the money for MSRP.

I appreciate any responses.

Thanks,
Mike

This person has been selling the same pair for about 2 years now...

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1259167727&/Jl-audio-fathom-113-mint-condi

Is anybody us the Audyssey EQ at all??

I did. It works great for the bass, but I did apply a little the ULF (25hz) boost on the sub to get things just right to my ears. Midrange was a mixed bag though, and I didn't like what Audyssey did to the top end.

I have a Audyssey Sub EQ (from SVS) in a box on my living room floor. I haven't opened it yet. I'm trying to find the best way to integrate the f113 into my system for movies & music.

I'm debating using the sub EQ with something like the Classe SSP-800 or going the cheaper route and upgrading my 9.8 to the latest Integra with Dynamic EQ & the pro kit.

I like to cross the sub over low to avoid localization, but with the Sub EQ that means the upper bass would go untreated.

I did. It works great for the bass, but I did apply a little the ULF (25hz) boost on the sub to get things just right to my ears. Midrange was a mixed bag though, and I didn't like what Audyssey did to the top end.

I have a Audyssey Sub EQ (from SVS) in a box on my living room floor. I haven't opened it yet. I'm trying to find the best way to integrate the f113 into my system for movies & music.

I'm debating using the sub EQ with something like the Classe SSP-800 or going the cheaper route and upgrading my 9.8 to the latest Integra with Dynamic EQ & the pro kit.

I like to cross the sub over low to avoid localization, but with the Sub EQ that means the upper bass would go untreated.
I have 2 of the Fathoms F112 and wonder of it's worth doing?

In my untreated room audyssey pro did a great job blending two f113, so much so that my system is audysey dipendent.
But, keep in mind the calibration process is tricky and it takes a several tries to get it right.


I did. It works great for the bass, but I did apply a little the ULF (25hz) boost on the sub to get things just right to my ears. Midrange was a mixed bag though, and I didn't like what Audyssey did to the top end.

I have a Audyssey Sub EQ (from SVS) in a box on my living room floor. I haven't opened it yet. I'm trying to find the best way to integrate the f113 into my system for movies & music.

I'm debating using the sub EQ with something like the Classe SSP-800 or going the cheaper route and upgrading my 9.8 to the latest Integra with Dynamic EQ & the pro kit.

I like to cross the sub over low to avoid localization, but with the Sub EQ that means the upper bass would go untreated.

I see there are several F113's for sale on the 'gon. Has anyone purchase their sub from there? What are the implications if you run into a problem? I'm assuming the warranty is non-transferable. While it would be a stretch, I would be willing the pay the price they are going for on Audiogon but I don't know that I would shell out the money for MSRP.

I appreciate any responses.

Thanks,
MikeI am a big fan of JL subs but it really seems that JL should, and could if they wanted to, crack down on Audiogon dealer resellers. JL continues to sell to these guys who liquidate stuff on audiogon and that makes it extremely tough for regular brick and mortar dealers who rely on sales for a living. I guess JL joins the ever growing list of companies who say one thng and do another.

In defense of JLA there is not a single high end manufacturer that does not have product moving "sideways" on the Internet.

Sometime dealers get involved in elaborate trades with other companies to obtain a unit a customer is looking for or an item they want personally and can not get. I know I have.

Then again dealers want to move stale inventory to pick up a fresh line [you AV buyers are a fickle bunch, just look at the rise and fall of the Wilson WP7/WP8 since Mrs. "Sasha" came to town] or perhaps to pay off some debt.

One of the problems is that the industry has gotten to loose with allowing end user direct access and to attend trade shows. Heck thats how I got started, I simply went to a few CES and CEDIA expos and starting talking. Frankly I was shocked how easy it was to get information.

AV is a part time business at present for me but that may change in the future when/if the economy rebounds. So I really can't speak for those that depend on it to feed their families but I'm sure its tough.

I did. It works great for the bass, but I did apply a little the ULF (25hz) boost on the sub to get things just right to my ears. Midrange was a mixed bag though, and I didn't like what Audyssey did to the top end.

I have a Audyssey Sub EQ (from SVS) in a box on my living room floor. I haven't opened it yet. I'm trying to find the best way to integrate the f113 into my system for movies & music.

I'm debating using the sub EQ with something like the Classe SSP-800 or going the cheaper route and upgrading my 9.8 to the latest Integra with Dynamic EQ & the pro kit.

I like to cross the sub over low to avoid localization, but with the Sub EQ that means the upper bass would go untreated.
Home theater mag reviewed that SVS sub EQ in their current issue. it seems like a good product. im thinking of getting it.

How would i go about using this with JL's sub EQ and pioneers MCACC? actually the MCACC doesn't EQ the sub, i think it only sets the levels and distance.

Can the SVS EQ be used in conjunction with other EQ's?

Home theater mag reviewed that SVS sub EQ in their current issue. it seems like a good product. im thinking of getting it.

How would i go about using this with JL's sub EQ and pioneers MCACC? actually the MCACC doesn't EQ the sub, i think it only sets the levels and distance.
You are correct that MCACC doesn't EQ the bass. It only Eq's to 63 Hz. I believe the SVS AS-EQ1 will work with MCACC, but I'm not sure of the details of *how* it would work. You should ask that question in the AS-EQ1 thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=793007
Several SVS rep's and some experienced users post there and I'm sure someone will have experience with your question.

Are you using one sub, or more than one? The SVS AS-EQ1's "specialty" is EQ'ing dual or multiple subs.

Can the SVS EQ be used in conjunction with other EQ's?
What other EQ are you thinking of? If you want to use ARO, you should probably run it first, the run MCACC/AS-EQ1. If you want to use some other parametric EQ, the answer depends on what you want to do with it, and how you want to use it.

Craig

You are correct that MCACC doesn't EQ the bass. It only Eq's to 63 Hz. I believe the SVS AS-EQ1 will work with MCACC, but I'm not sure of the details of *how* it would work. You should ask that question in the AS-EQ1 thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=793007
Several SVS rep's and some experienced users post there and I'm sure someone will have experience with your question.

Are you using one sub, or more than one? The SVS AS-EQ1's "specialty" is EQ'ing dual or multiple subs. Im going to be using only one JL sub.

Is the EQ1 designed to work with multiple subs only?


What other EQ are you thinking of? If you want to use ARO, you should probably run it first, the run MCACC/AS-EQ1. If you want to use some other parametric EQ, the answer depends on what you want to do with it, and how you want to use it.

Craig
Yeah i was talking about JL's ARO. i was wondering if it was possible to run 2 EQ's with out any problems. i always wonderd how that worked. i thought using another EQ on top of another would somehow defeat the other. but i guess it just does more work?

Thanks for the link.

Im going to be using only one JL sub.

Is the EQ1 designed to work with multiple subs only?
No, it can be used with just one sub.

Yeah i was talking about JL's ARO. i was wondering if it was possible to run 2 EQ's with out any problems. i always wonderd how that worked. i thought using another EQ on top of another would somehow defeat the other. but i guess it just does more work?
JL's ARO is a single point, single band EQ. If you run it first at the primary LP, it will reduce the one biggest peak in the in-room response at that position. Then, you can run the SVS AS-EQ1 and it won't have to "deal" with that peak. It can spend more of it's resolution on the rest of the frequency/time response. It can measure the response at up to 32 positions, and it can set up to 256 "taps".

OTOH, since the AS-EQ! can measure up to 32 positions and analyze the combined response of all those positions, if the peak found by ARO is not a "representative" peak, ARO's filter may actually cause the AS-EQ! to work harder to undo that filter.

If you decide to try this, you should run the AS-EQ1 with and without ARO. Take a look at the "Pre" response with ARO vs. the "Pre" response without ARO. This will allow you to see what ARO is doing. Then compare the "Post" graphs and see if the ARO filter was beneficial or not.

Good luck.

Craig

In defense of JLA there is not a single high end manufacturer that does not have product moving "sideways" on the Internet.
.


So true!
Once you start talking to people prices drop close to half on most products, except ID.

anyone heard of Jl's 2010 lineup? I wonder if there will be any changes?

MSmith sure is quiet.

My sub has turned on by itself a few times now. It suddenly hums/buzz, etc when the AVR is not turned on. I finally noticed a loose rca cable (head) going into the AVR sub connection.

I tried to see if it I can replicate the issue by moving the loose cable around and I was able to. I used a plier to tighten the connection head of the rca cable.

I cannot imagine it doing this humming/buzzing sound when nobody is home.

Does this make sense of a loose cable? I hope I corrected the issue.

Tony

A F113 is actually a 13.5 in driver. So a F115 would be that much larger but it would go deeper and with ease.. :D

why so much buzz going deeper? Human hearing limitations cannot be changed, unless we are talking pseudo-acoustics and that's another matter.... ohh, by the way, size matters for many...

why so much buzz going deeper? Human hearing limitations cannot be changed, unless we are talking pseudo-acoustics and that's another matter.... ohh, by the way, size matters for many...


As does speed, articulation, and tonality to others. You can't change the laws of physics. :p

As does speed, articulation, and tonality to others. You can't change the laws of physics. :p

...or all, and F113 doesn't miss by much to my knowledge.

Exactly! I have yet to hear a sub that incorporates the speed, ability to blend seamlessly with even the fastest electrostats, tonality, articulation and depth that the F113 or Gotham does. If properly set up and time and care is taken they are incredibly seamless and pack a serious amounth of speed and punch. Articulation is paramount to me as I can not stand the thump, thump of the vast majority of what passes for subwoofers in the market. The JL's are superb in that regard.

why so much buzz going deeper? Human hearing limitations cannot be changed, unless we are talking pseudo-acoustics and that's another matter.... ohh, by the way, size matters for many...

But you sure can feel it. :D

But you sure can feel it. :D

Your room would have to be huge to take advantage of that low a frequency as the wave length of a frequency that low is so long your room would not be able to support it properly.

An example is a 16.4hz note (low C) is 69.1 feet long crest to crest. Is your room that large???!!! Wish mine was!

Your room would have to be huge to take advantage of that low a frequency as the wave length of a frequency that low is so long your room would not be able to support it properly.

An example is a 16.4hz note (low C) is 69.1 feet long crest to crest. Is your room that large???!!! Wish mine was!
You don't need a room as long as the wavelength to be able to "hear" the note. (Actually few can "hear" 16.4 Hz note until it gets to about 110 dB. Below that, most all of us can, (as kutlow says), FEEL it.) You can "hear" a 20 or 25 Hz note though, and those wavelengths are almost a long as a 16.4 Hz tone.

There are quite a few subs that can produce prodigious output below 20 Hz, and many users who enjoy it. Obviously the audible range is the most important and where the priority should be. However, addressing the sub-20 Hz stuff is definitely worth doing, and I agree with kutlow that JL ought to consider a larger driver/box to be able to produce it.

Craig

Your room would have to be huge to take advantage of that low a frequency as the wave length of a frequency that low is so long your room would not be able to support it properly.


That was disproved years ago.

A larger driver could idle through scenes that a F113 is reaching it's peak.

Exactly! I have yet to hear a sub that incorporates the speed, ability to blend seamlessly with even the fastest electrostats, tonality, articulation and depth that the F113 or Gotham does. If properly set up and time and care is taken they are incredibly seamless and pack a serious amounth of speed and punch. Articulation is paramount to me as I can not stand the thump, thump of the vast majority of what passes for subwoofers in the market. The JL's are superb in that regard.

Speaker performance and speed have no relationship whatever period end of story. If you want to increase the speed of a driver, increase the volume or increase the frequency - that sentence should read like "DUH". JL's drivers or electrostats are not slower / faster than anything else.

Also, "tonality" and "articulation" are really not words we sholud use to describe speakers in a meaningful way - that really buys into the entire audiophile pixey dust stuff and avoids actual performance and measurable differences. If it sounds different, it will measuring different, no need to go beyond engineering to describe that because we all know the speakers don't go beyond engineering.

I've been contemplating replacing my current sub. Well, I bit the bullet and ordered two f113's! Let the low-frequency fun begin.;)

Speaker performance and speed have no relationship whatever period end of story. If you want to increase the speed of a driver, increase the volume or increase the frequency - that sentence should read like "DUH". JL's drivers or electrostats are not slower / faster than anything else.

Also, "tonality" and "articulation" are really not words we sholud use to describe speakers in a meaningful way - that really buys into the entire audiophile pixey dust stuff and avoids actual performance and measurable differences. If it sounds different, it will measuring different, no need to go beyond engineering to describe that because we all know the speakers don't go beyond engineering.

While I mostly agree, I also feel this statement is a bit ambitious. It implies that we have identified everything that contributes to the sound of a certain speaker, that we know exactly what must be measured, and that we have instrumentation that is capable of carrying out those measurements. I believe we're most of the way there, but not finished yet.

Many of the audiophile buzz-words are merely layman's descriptions of measurable physical phenomena. Those buzz-words, however, have allowed audio enthusiasts to communicate about various aspects of sound quality without possessing engineering degrees. While an engineer might talk about square-wave response, an audiophile might use the terms sluggishness, speed, blurring, muddiness, etc. to describe the same thing.

More work needs to be done to equate the "audiophile perception" of a sound with the measured qualities of that sound. With losses at both ends of the recording/playback chain still a reality, there are still factors impacting sound reproduction that require more study.

Lee

Speaker performance and speed have no relationship whatever period end of story. If you want to increase the speed of a driver, increase the volume or increase the frequency - that sentence should read like "DUH". JL's drivers or electrostats are not slower / faster than anything else.

Also, "tonality" and "articulation" are really not words we sholud use to describe speakers in a meaningful way - that really buys into the entire audiophile pixey dust stuff and avoids actual performance and measurable differences. If it sounds different, it will measuring different, no need to go beyond engineering to describe that because we all know the speakers don't go beyond engineering.

I have a question about this. How exactly are FR measurements taken? Is it with single band sine waves? Or are measurements done to see how a sub handles and responds to multiple signals at the same time? If so, what is the term for this type of measurement?

If all that matters are things like output, extension, and even order harmonics, then what is the point of different subwoofer manufacturers?

I ask this, because you can take two different speakers that have almost identical FR, yet, they sound completely different? Or this just placebo as well? Do materials and design not account for anything?

It is very difficult to believe a lot of things that are posted here (not referring to you) because you get so many different POV's. As an example, like many I am aware of craigsubs ratings, and he rated dual MFW15's equal to an F113. Yet, I've read posts from others who actually own or owned pairs of MFW15's, and have had the opportunity to hear the JL's, and mentioned that the JL's were far and away superior in SQ. That it wasn't even a comparison.

If "objectively" the MFW's are comparable, why the disparity?

Just as another example, a recent Submersive owner mentioned that he had a pair of JL's, and sold them and bought a pair of Dragons (Ithink it was Dragons) and said he regretted selling the JL's because the Epiks weren't even in the same league, and that it wasn't until he picked up the Submersives, that he felt his desires were met and maybe even exceeded.

I've been contemplating replacing my current sub. Well, I bit the bullet and ordered two f113's! Let the low-frequency fun begin.;)

Congrats Wabo! You're in for a treat my friend!

What impresses me most about the JL's is their subtlety with music, and tactility (not even sure if that's a word, LOL!) for HT. Very visceral sub. In the right size room, they will make your sofa move!

I am a big fan of JL subs but it really seems that JL should, and could if they wanted to, crack down on Audiogon dealer resellers. JL continues to sell to these guys who liquidate stuff on audiogon and that makes it extremely tough for regular brick and mortar dealers who rely on sales for a living. I guess JL joins the ever growing list of companies who say one thng and do another.

Brick and mortar stores kill themselves by not coming off MSRP.

Congrats Wabo! You're in for a treat my friend!

What impresses me most about the JL's is their subtlety with music, and tactility (not even sure if that's a word, LOL!) for HT. Very visceral sub. In the right size room, they will make your sofa move!

Thanks Fanaticalism.

I can't wait to get these beasts hooked up and dialed in. I was told it will be about 10 days to 2 weeks until their arrival. I'll be honest with you, I'm ready for some tactility and sofa movin'!:D

I have a question about this. How exactly are FR measurements taken? Is it with single band sine waves? Or are measurements done to see how a sub handles and responds to multiple signals at the same time? If so, what is the term for this type of measurement?

If all that matters are things like output, extension, and even order harmonics, then what is the point of different subwoofer manufacturers?

I ask this, because you can take two different speakers that have almost identical FR, yet, they sound completely different? Or this just placebo as well? Do materials and design not account for anything?

It is very difficult to believe a lot of things that are posted here (not referring to you) because you get so many different POV's. As an example, like many I am aware of craigsubs ratings, and he rated dual MFW15's equal to an F113. Yet, I've read posts from others who actually own or owned pairs of MFW15's, and have had the opportunity to hear the JL's, and mentioned that the JL's were far and away superior in SQ. That it wasn't even a comparison.

If "objectively" the MFW's are comparable, why the disparity?

Just as another example, a recent Submersive owner mentioned that he had a pair of JL's, and sold them and bought a pair of Dragons (Ithink it was Dragons) and said he regretted selling the JL's because the Epiks weren't even in the same league, and that it wasn't until he picked up the Submersives, that he felt his desires were met and maybe even exceeded.


I'll kindly point out that I mentioned nothing about "FR response," "output," "extension," "even order harmonics," or "manufacturers"

In the example you brought fourth, there is nothing simialr about these sub woofers. You're talking about two very different drivers and two totally different system alignments. We can take one look at the impedance plot and we don't even need to listen - it measures completely different! Got any other examples?

I'll kindly point out that I mentioned nothing about "FR response," "output," "extension," "even order harmonics," or "manufacturers"

In the example you brought fourth, there is nothing simialr about these sub woofers. You're talking about two very different drivers and two totally different system alignments. We can take one look at the impedance plot and we don't even need to listen - it measures completely different! Got any other examples?

My post was more a series of questions than comments which I hoped you'd be able to answer.(Trying to learn here which can sometimes be difficult) :confused:

Brick and mortar stores kill themselves by not coming off MSRP.

The big thing is to change the business model. We are looking at this even in my day job were we have been pounded by a low cost competitor that tends to hide additional cost of ownership and springs it on the client AFTER the honeymoon is over. Not very ethical. So much information is available to the end user today that was not just a few short years ago. Some accurate and some not of course.

I feel there has to be more out of the box thinking. Say for example pricing tiers. Here is an example.

If the customer wants an "Internet Price" [with a reasoable bump from buying from an authorized dealer] then they get Internet service. If you have a problem the dealer would be proactive with the end user and JLA over the phone or via email and once a resolution is provided the end user has to take ownership. The unit may have to be go back to JL for repair, the end user pays S&H. If there are set up questions "above and beyond" the end user pays for the expertise of the dealer or the dealers information base. This I'm sure sounds harsh and border line poor customer service but try to get the gal [probably a guy but the screen name makes your horn dogs all giddy inside] from Audiogon to come to your home or call the dealer they bought it from to call JL to try to help you...

Now if the end user is not a DIY type client then perhaps the client pays closer to MSRP or even above for services like loaners, in house pick up and exchange for repairs, in home trials, placement guidance and or actual installation and calibration. These services could be listed then discounted as part of a PREMIUM CUSTOMER price tier. Something as little as a free year of TAS or WideScreen Review maybe part of the package too.

Then of course there is always a middle ground based on the customers needs and expectations.

Interesting points indeed. I bought all 4 of my current F113s from authorized dealers (I had 2 others that came from different sources but they were sold unopened by me when I had the opportunity to buy 2 more gloss blacks instead of the mattes). When it came time for service it was basically my legwork and muscle that got the subs into the shop for repair. To be fair, the service I got was pretty decent, but it wasn't from the shop I bought them from. I'm closer to the distributor than they were. I don't begrudge a decent markup to a dealer providing service but I don't think it's terribly uncommon to find that the dealer is just basically the place where to swipe your visa card. Value added service is nice but not necessary much of the time... Just my 0.02

Interesting points indeed. I bought all 4 of my current F113s from authorized dealers (I had 2 others that came from different sources but they were sold unopened by me when I had the opportunity to buy 2 more gloss blacks instead of the mattes). When it came time for service it was basically my legwork and muscle that got the subs into the shop for repair. To be fair, the service I got was pretty decent, but it wasn't from the shop I bought them from. I'm closer to the distributor than they were. I don't begrudge a decent markup to a dealer providing service but I don't think it's terribly uncommon to find that the dealer is just basically the place where to swipe your visa card. Value added service is nice but not necessary much of the time... Just my 0.02

Bogg... Curious what needed to be repaired? How is life with 4 of these lovelies? I have two and they blow my mind. My room is bulging most of the time and the drivers never seem to be moving that much. Incredible headroom.

I, too, have to the high gloss. Fit/Finish is simply superb.

My "dealer" was worthless when it came to tech support and repair. I bought both subs from the local B&M dealer, about 14 months apart. When I found that they had totally different response curves, my dealer had no idea why, and were of exactly *zero* help. I ended up contacting JL tech support myself, discovered that the "problem" was that there had been a firmware upgrade between the manufacture dates of the two subs. JL sent me a new amplifier controller board, which I installed myself.

If I ever buy another JL product, it *won't* be from my local B&M dealer. JL's direct tech support and customer service are so good that I'll save some money and take my chances. If I have a problem, I would be confident that JL will take care of it directly.

Craig

C John,

I don't posses near the tech knowledge that many on AVS do but like Henry Ford I know where to get the answers. The dealer should have been more proactive in the service efforts by getting on the phone with both you and JL. If your home was close to his shop then visit of course and witness the problem.

Even if you can't fix it or don't have the magic pill right then and there showing involvement and trying to become part of the solution shows the customer your willingness to support them after the sale.

Now for other that have posted many of you are highly educated and skilled DIY users indeed. So if you do not need techinical assitance then you should not have to pay for it [translation = discount, prefer cash to avoid credit card fees]. However if you do then you should expect to pay for it. Its all about setting the expectation and the customers responsiblities as well as the dealers.

Gotto go to my day job now!

Interesting points indeed. I bought all 4 of my current F113s from authorized dealers (I had 2 others that came from different sources but they were sold unopened by me when I had the opportunity to buy 2 more gloss blacks instead of the mattes). When it came time for service it was basically my legwork and muscle that got the subs into the shop for repair. I don't begrudge a decent markup to a dealer providing service but I don't think it's terribly uncommon to find that the dealer is just basically the place where to swipe your visa card. Value added service is nice but not necessary much of the time... Just my 0.02

I had the same problem from my old dealer "Sounds Terrific". Any problems were on me and the manufacture of said product. What a joke, they then complain because you do not want to pay MSRP, but they provide zero service, besides trying to scare you off the net for advice. Which is usually more current then their sales guys last meeting 6 months ago.

Bogg... Curious what needed to be repaired? How is life with 4 of these lovelies? I have two and they blow my mind. My room is bulging most of the time and the drivers never seem to be moving that much. Incredible headroom.

I, too, have to the high gloss. Fit/Finish is simply superb.

2 of them separately developed a "rattling" noise at lowish volume so there was some internal problem that was never explained to me. It was a volume related noise meaning that it was more obvious as it was played louder and became distorted. If I had to guess I'd say the coil came loose from the attachment, but that's just speculation.

JL took good care of me by just swapping them out.

I would consider 2 subs the magic number and anything beyond that is mainly for fun. However, the additional subs clearly make for smoother bass throughout so if there are multiple people in the room it is of benefit. Plus for those occasions when you want the pods from WOTW to visit you at home then 4 subs will do it!

Brick and mortar stores kill themselves by not coming off MSRP.Thats a pretty generalized statement. most B&M stores will move on price but without negotiation on the part of the customer, why would they? JL sets the retail price, not the store. The problem isnt as much with the guys selling online as it is with a company like JL who tells you right on their site to support B&M stores, that their equipment is not covered by internet sales and you should not support these "unscrupulous" internet retailers. http://home.jlaudio.com/jlaudio_pages.php?page_id=10. And what do you get from JL in this instance.....SILENCE. Everyone knows they have people who read this forum on a regular basis and they stay quiet and offer no explaination(dont want to hurt their bottom line now). the sellers who are blowing Fathoms out the door on places like Ebay and Audiogon are EASILY indentifiable and JL could shut down their supply line if they want to. They apparently choose not to and in turn JL, by results of their inaction, supports these "unscrupulous" dealers themselves and is part of the reason B&M stores have an increasingly hard time competing. It may be a sign of the times with internet sales and all, but the hipocracy of JL (and an alarming number of other Audio companies) shouldn't go unnoticed or uncalled upon.

Thats a pretty generalized statement. most B&M stores will move on price but without negotiation on the part of the customer, why would they? JL sets the retail price, not the store. The problem isnt as much with the guys selling online as it is with a company like JL who tells you right on their site to support B&M stores, that their equipment is not covered by internet sales and you should not support these "unscrupulous" internet retailers. http://home.jlaudio.com/jlaudio_pages.php?page_id=10. And what do you get from JL in this instance.....SILENCE. Everyone knows they have people who read this forum on a regular basis and they stay quiet and offer no explaination(dont want to hurt their bottom line now). the sellers who are blowing Fathoms out the door on places like Ebay and Audiogon are EASILY indentifiable and JL could shut down their supply line if they want to. They apparently choose not to and in turn JL, by results of their inaction, supports these "unscrupulous" dealers themselves and is part of the reason B&M stores have an increasingly hard time competing. It may be a sign of the times with internet sales and all, but the hipocracy of JL (and an alarming number of other Audio companies) shouldn't go unnoticed or uncalled upon.

Anyone that pays full retail for a fathom is either rich as heck or a dummy. Their sales would be cut in half im sure.

Anyone that pays full retail for a fathom is either rich as heck or a dummy. Their sales would be cut in half im sure. I agree but my whole point isnt about what you pay, its about who you pay it to and what the mfg's say and do about it.

I agree but my whole point isnt about what you pay, its about who you pay it to and what the mfg's say and do about it.

Most of the audio industry move sideways to the net, for secret sales.

With the open box, or floor model, or "their seconds" story, ect...as a cover.


Forums like this, saves audiophiles who read and pm, a lot of money.


Good reason to be a paying supporter!

Most of the audio industry move sideways to the net, for secret sales.

With the open box, or floor model, or "their seconds" story, ect...as a cover.


Forums like this, saves audiophiles who read and pm, a lot of money.


Good reason to be a paying supporter!
I think you're correct about the secret sales and sideways moves. There have been about 6 or so "new" JL Fathom subs on Audiogon the last week or so. And the thing is that they are being sold by the same people all the time. Why doesnt JL just sell internet direct and increase sales instead of the underhanded tatics they are now using?

I think you're correct about the secret sales and sideways moves. There have been about 6 or so "new" JL Fathom subs on Audiogon the last week or so. And the thing is that they are being sold by the same people all the time. Why doesnt JL just sell internet direct and increase sales instead of the underhanded tatics they are now using?

there is a new fathom f113 on there for 1899.00

I think you're correct about the secret sales and sideways moves. There have been about 6 or so "new" JL Fathom subs on Audiogon the last week or so. And the thing is that they are being sold by the same people all the time. Why doesnt JL just sell internet direct and increase sales instead of the underhanded tatics they are now using?

Your last statement sounds like you think that JL is actually the one's selling on Audiogon which is very unlikely.

Be glad that JL honors their warranty. I know of other companies, specifically Velodyne, who wouldn't.

Your last statement sounds like you think that JL is actually the one's selling on Audiogon which is very unlikely.

Be glad that JL honors their warranty. I know of other companies, specifically Velodyne, who wouldn't.
What I am saying is that the same private sellers continually sell "new" or "like new" Fathoms all the time on Audiogon. Anyone who looks on Audiogon could easily recognize this, including JL presumably. Now where are these sellers constantly getting new Fathoms for sale? And about the warranty, according to the link from above JL WILL NOT honor warranty from Fathoms bought on the internet, so I am not sure what you base your statement on. If Velodyne doesn't stand behind their warranty when their products are bought on the web from unauthorized dealers, at least they are trying to help maintain integrity with their dealer base and giving buyers incentive to buy from Authorized dealers.

I have one F113 in my HT.My AVR is a Denon 4310CI and I'am considering adding a second F113. In the manual for the F113 they say to use the second as a slave to the other.But I talked to a JL Tech and he said another choice would be to Y out of my AVR and use each as separate or Master units. How do those of you who have two subs implement them in your systems?

I have one F113 in my HT.My AVR is a Denon 4310CI and I'am considering adding a second F113. In the manual for the F113 they say to use the second as a slave to the other.But I talked to a JL Tech and he said another choice would be to Y out of my AVR and use each as separate or Master units. How do those of you who have two subs implement them in your systems?

I have the Denon AVP-A1HDCI and two f113's. The AVP has 3 sub outputs. I have both f113's set to 'master' and connected independently (no Y adapter) via XLR cables to the sub 1 and sub 2 outputs on my pre/pro. I'm using the left/mono input on each Fathom. I'm very happy with the results. So if your AVR has 2 or more sub outputs, this is the route I'd take.

MY AVR only has one RCA Subwoofer out therefore the Y adaptor so I can run an RCA to each Subs left input. If I run both 113 as masters this means that each will be calibrated individually with it's own MIC and ARO Is that correct?

MY AVR only has one RCA Subwoofer out therefore the Y adaptor so I can run an RCA to each Subs left input. If I run both 113 as masters this means that each will be calibrated individually with it's own MIC and ARO Is that correct?


Yes, that is the procedure. I have my F113's connected to my Denon 3808 via single ended RCA's using a "Y" connector. I calibrated each sub as a "Master" individually using the same MIC and the ARO. I called JL in the past and they stated that this was their preferred method with dual subs.

If I run both 113 as masters this means that each will be calibrated individually with it's own MIC and ARO Is that correct?
That is correct, but it may not be the best way to do it. Running ARO on each sub individually will correct each sub individually. But if you play them together, you don't *hear* each of them individually. You *hear* them combined into one sound. If the response of the two individually corrected subs is still corrected properly after they are combined, then that is the best way to do it. However, you can't know this unless you can measure the response.

OTOH, if you run them Master/Slave, then ARO is run on the *combined* response. It will not correct each sub individually, but it will correct the sound that you actually hear.

The other advantage of Master/Slave is that the subs will be ideally gain-matched. The gain setting of the Master will be used to control the gain of the slave. This ensures they both have the same output for a given input.

I suggest you try it both ways if possible and see if you prefer one to the other.

Craig