Hey everyone, this is my first post!

I have ordered 2 F110s for use in a room that is 12' x 15'. Paired with Vienna Acoustics Mozarts. They will be used 50/50 music and HT.

The advice from the dealer was that the 110s would be more than adequate considering the room size, the listening levels (generally moderate...) and the fact that the small room will inhibit frequency response on the ultra low end. He thought the 112s would be nice, albeit a bit excessive, and that 113s would be overkill.

After sifting through dozens of pages of this thread, I'm starting to wonder if the 110s will be able to hang with the LFE in modern soundtracks and some demanding low end on the music side (metal, hip hop, no pipe organs).

Is it worth the extra cash to hedge with the 112s or is this just buyers remorse getting the best of me after a reasonable decision to go with the 110s?

Would love to her your thoughts!

-J

Sorry, but you better rethink your decision here! I would definitely not go with the 110's if you are remotely thinking of cranking up the sound a bit and wanting to expericence bass you can feel and hear! The 110 is not up to par imo. If you can swing it, get one 113 and then go for another one down the road. I own 2 of the 113's and in my somewhat larger room 17x34 long by 8' high, they have a hard time keeping up and reach their limits quickly on very deep, powerful material. just my .02

Ya, where bass is concerned, always get more than you think you need.

The goal is to get something that does not have to be pushed to near its limits regularly. The 110 would not be adequate for movies if you want to hear/feel all of the content. I would get one 113 and if anyhthing have it coasting along not bending over backwards to reproduce what you ask it to do. I don't care how good or expensive or large or whatever your sub is, if you push it very hard you get more THD.

I need a new sub and am trying to hold out for a new offering from Jl. Paradigm has a sub 25 that seems to be a little stronger than the F113. Come on Jl announce a F115 and a F118!

Anyone one heard from Manville? He is AWOL:D

Mark,

It is more difficult than you think to bring a product to market and quite expensive I might add. Therefore it doesn't surprise me that JL is being cautious in this regard. You also must keep in mind that home audio is a nice business segment for JL but not thier bread and butter.

In this industry and market of the fickle HT enthusiast it is a fine line you walk in a very narrow market place. So what do you do?

The Fathom has had and still has amazing succeess as one of the best subs made in general and probably the best sealed enclosure sub out there. This is based on reviews by its satisifed and highly critical customer base as well as industry experts. Now is the Fathom the deepest or loudest? No it is not. Is it the best bang for the buck for true brute force and extension [almost the same statement as above]. No it is not.

However those that top the Fathom in those areas are not that far off in "street price" since most [not all now flamers in wait] are Internet Direct. Like I said before when you compare peformance, looks, build quality, support and warranty JL offers a high "VALUE" imho.

Now getting back to your question and ongoing push for a new product. I'm sure something is on the drawing board or at least being discussed in concept since the Fathom [112 & 113] are approaching 3 years old. But where does JL go? The F212 is at $6K MSRP and the GOTHAM is 2x that so I'm sure you and others are looking for something lets say equal to or less that the present price point of the 112/113. That would be great and would sell like mad but that might be a pipe dream.

My bet [and this is 100% conjecture] is that there will be a F115 or F118 at say a 15 - 25% premium of current MSRP. Now less would be great but with JL's component and cabinet cost [very labor intensive] that might be a push.

However when the day comes I can't wait for all those that will "diss" the current product line. Note a product that has one best in its class two years running. Once its eventual replacement comes out it the F112/113 will be like a used condem and owners will use the pages of thier manuals as toilet paper! That's just the way this hobby and its participants happens to be.

Maybe Carl, Brian or Manville will chime in.

Regards,
Mike

Guys.... kutlow has a history that has not been revealed..... Car Stereo spl competition...

His wants and needs are a bit above and beyond what the JL's might serve for his needs. Another direction may be for him to look into a pair of DIY Danley DTS-10 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1189404)'s as well as some of the DIY scenarios I have suggested to him, such as the TC-Sounds LMS 18, or the RE XXX 18" with ridiculous output..... All fantastic venues to more then overcome the output of the likes of what JL has to offer.... He is accustom too, and likely willing to go the DIY route which will remove the limits that are set down by commercial subs as you know....

FYI - As a JL owner my F112 is more then enough for my needs in my small bedroom setup, serves my needs extremely well - clean and tight... :)
Everyone has their thoughts on what makes them happy, so lets roll with his wants and needs for bass.

Man, Am I bummed. I went to set up the subs this weekend, One was smashed. I hyave to send it back. BTW, I was underwhelmed by the solo sub set up. It was weaker than mt RT-12d. I think I may have made a mistake

The Sound is tighter than the klipsch but with less impact

Your moving from a passive box, to a couple of sealed F113's...

They will have a different sound, feel and output, but the JL's are certainly not lacking, I would reserve judgement until you get everything setup and integrated properly... You've likely gotten used to the higher distortion of the Klipsh, which may seem to offer more impact... Sorry to hear about the damaged unit, hope the replacement comes soon... sometimes integration can take a bit of work to get things right...

Guys.... kutlow has a history that has not been revealed..... Car Stereo spl competition...

What say ye Mr. Kutlow?

My dealer picked up the damaged unit and ordered a replacement unit,

Man, Am I bummed. I went to set up the subs this weekend, One was smashed. I hyave to send it back. BTW, I was underwhelmed by the solo sub set up. It was weaker than mt RT-12d. I think I may have made a mistake

The Sound is tighter than the klipsch but with less impact

Perhaps you should have the dealer check out the other sub as well. If it was damaged in a lesser fashion, that could certainly affect its performance.

The JL F113 is a far superior sub to either that you mentioned. If you're underwhelmed by it, it's the setup and integration into your system, not the performance of the JL. Be patient and I hope you'll agree.

Lee

Like Warp said, he may be used to 50%+ distortion on high SPL content which is probably conservative. This does add a lot to sound and if you get used to it...

Like Warp said, he may be used to 50%+ distortion on high SPL content which is probably conservative. This does add a lot to sound and if you get used to it...

Ilkka measured some pretty high distortion levels for the F113 also:

http://personal.inet.fi/private/zipman/shootout5/jl%20audio%20f113%20thd.png

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/8152-jl-audio-fathom-f113.html

Craig

Also it might be a mistake to write off the RT-12d as if it were garbage. It's a $2200 sub and may very well be the best sub Klipsch ever made. It most likely exhibits lower distortion than the f113 at similar spl and should be capable of higher output than the f113 between 20-30hz. For HT purposes, it might very well outperform a single f113.

Ilkka measured some pretty high distortion levels for the F113 also:



Definitely, but that is at its limits with each pass.

That is exactly what I am eluding to. If you push the sub it will add THD. So, that is why you select something or multiples of something that you do NOT have to push to its limits. "Power is nothing without control" so says the advertisement.

Definitely, but that is at its limits with each pass.

That is exactly what I am eluding to. If you push the sub it will add THD. So, that is why you select something or multiples of something that you do have to push to its limits. "Power is nothing without control" so says the advertisement.

I think you meant do not have to push to its limits. Any device pushed to its design specification limits or beyond is going to perform at the edge of its abilities - hence the reason the spec limits in the first place.

I own two F113's and for example had a wonderful Saturday last week watching Terminator Salvation (killer soundtrack at reference level, BTW), GI Joe and Star Trek all in a row at full reference level (a rarity for me, BTW - my S/O hates it and I went nuts when I had the house alone for the day). The F113's just rocked the foundation and never showed any sign of distress even when immense sound waves were flowing. I had the grilles off and watched the woofer movement during the peak scenes and they never travelled at the most a + - 1 - 2 inch travel each way. Well within their design peaks and the bottom end was incredibly tight, fast and detailed. I am still reeling from the sheer immensity of that experience and wish I could enjoy it on a daily basis.

Now, about those other two F113's I want to buy...

YA! :D

This is a case of "you know what I meant to say".

Thanks for pointing that out.

Yes, when things are operating as they should and there is headroom to spare it is a great experience. Quality bass is intoxicating.

Perhaps you should have the dealer check out the other sub as well. If it was damaged in a lesser fashion, that could certainly affect its performance.

The JL F113 is a far superior sub to either that you mentioned. If you're underwhelmed by it, it's the setup and integration into your system, not the performance of the JL. Be patient and I hope you'll agree.

Lee


Definitely. the JL is a reference sub. I did notice as would in any set up that stereo subs or more make a big difference. I loved my single F113 but when I added the second one a whole different ball game emerged. Like any speaker, they are more than the sum of their parts when run as a team. I see now why JL is so high on stereo subs. No question. Ah, yes... that feeling. I love it and miss it in my office right now.

Again, now for that second pair of F113's... I know there are guys with 3 or 4 of these and I would give my right arm (I am left handed anyway) for 4 of these in my setup. Now, THAT would be the icing on the cake.

YA! :D

This is a case of "you know what I meant to say".

Thanks for pointing that out.

Yes, when things are operating as they should and there is headroom to spare it is a great experience. Quality bass is intoxicating.

Ain't it the truth! I never felt that way... that is until I bought both F113's. Now, I can't live without them. Best investment I ever made in terms of bass.

I know. I just wanted to be sure as you never know who might take it out of context.

Now, lets all go home and enjoy that bass experience we all paid for. Yippee!!!

I tried out a Rt-12D and thought it was a joke. Did not hit very hard in my opinion or maybe the salesman had it turned down too low. I do remember the first time I went to audition a Fathom. My brother and I drove 1.5 hours one way to Birmingham and a dealer had the Fathom set up on moves and had it about 20%. I looked at my brother and said " what the hell this thing isnt hitting at all" The dealer said I have it at about 20%. Now after we left my brother and I couldn't figure out what in the world a man would demo me a subwoofer at 20% when he knew I came 1.5 hours away. When he walked out of the room I turned it up to reference and it sounded great.

The Fathom F113 is a very nice subwoofer. Duals are even better. You can hear things in duals that you cant hear in single fathom set ups. For instance there is a scene in the first Transformers where the robot picks the car up and holds it in the air. When he draws his arm back to toss it you can feel the air in the room move. Awesome.

Right now Im just looking to see if there is anything else that I might consider. I will be driving to Danley Subs in Atlants this week to demo the Th50. If it sounds too strong and too much over kill then Ill just order another Fathom.

I know when you sit a F113 side by side you gain 6db. I wonder what you get if you have 3 lined up side by side? That might just be the ticket.:)

I painted my screen wall, 5 ft back on both side walls, ceiling, and had a piece of black carpet cut and edges sewed to cut down on reflection. I cant tell you how much this helps out. :cool:

Mike I wanted to ask you this. On my new Fathom when setting the ARO it will not catch until the master volume know is at close to the 4 o clock position. My other Fathoms caught when it was at the 2 o clock position. Does this mean anything?:eek:

I know when you sit a F113 side by side you gain 6db. I wonder what you get if you have 3 lined up side by side? That might just be the ticket.:)

Addng a third sub would give you +3db.

Ilkka measured some pretty high distortion levels for the F113 also:



Craig

Ikka talks about the distortion he measured. Here is what he had to say.

"Then the distortion issue. The whole question "was JL's distortion that audible" is a bit strange because distortion is a multi-dimensional variable. It's not like "is 5 larger than 2", which only has one answer - yes. Distortion depends on both output level and frequency so there's no single easy answer to that question. Then there's also a so-called masking effect. If you look at the distortion measurements I took, you can see that the f113 is not the cleanest subwoofer out there when you push it close to its limits. But the ones that are cleaner, are either having larger or multiple woofers in a _much_ larger enclosures. Of course also porting a subwoofer lowers the deep bass distortion. At more common listening levels the distortion that the f113 produces is very minimal.

When looking at the very important "Harmonic Distortion % By Component" graph, you'll see that the distortion consists mainly out of second and third harmonics. The higher harmonics raise their ugly heads only at the low end, and even that happens only at high output levels. So when the distortion is like that, it's very heard to hear it because the fundamental masks anything that is very close to it. And second and third harmonic can be considered being 'close'. I've compared the f113 and the LMS-5400 sealed 100L in my own listening room, and although the f113 has quite low distortion, it can not match the ultra low distortion of the LMS woofer. It's not audible when using low to moderate levels but when really pushing them, one can hear that the LMS subwoofer stays cleaner, especially at the low end. Same goes to the SVS PB13-Ultra: it stays cleaner than the f113 at high output levels and when simultaneously inputting a low frequency content. No wonder there though, the other is a very small sealed subwoofer while the other is a much larger ported sub. But does this make the f113 a bad subwoofer? No way! It's one of the best subwoofers I've heard, and by far the highest performing _small_ subwoofer I've ever heard."

We've all read this before, but those who have not, should know the whole story, IMO.

Your moving from a passive box, to a couple of sealed F113's...

They will have a different sound, feel and output, but the JL's are certainly not lacking, I would reserve judgement until you get everything setup and integrated properly... You've likely gotten used to the higher distortion of the Klipsh, which may seem to offer more impact... Sorry to hear about the damaged unit, hope the replacement comes soon... sometimes integration can take a bit of work to get things right...This higher distortion your talking about, it comes in the form of loud rumbling but no detail in what your hearing correct? i've read threads where people coming from lesser subs, and now have more powerful ones, say in movies where they experienced loud rumbling at a certain scenes, they dont here that anymore with new sub. the sound is more subtle. but when it gets low, it get low.

Im guessing im gonna have to get use to this to? i currently only have a 10" sub, planning on getting a F113 next year. my sub does indeed give of a loud rumble in movies like cloverfield or star trek. i can here different notes and plenty of dynamics, but i guess most of the time im hearing distortion?
Guys.... kutlow has a history that has not been revealed..... Car Stereo spl competition...

His wants and needs are a bit above and beyond what the JL's might serve for his needs. Another direction may be for him to look into a pair of DIY Danley DTS-10 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1189404)'s as well as some of the DIY scenarios I have suggested to him, such as the TC-Sounds LMS 18, or the RE XXX 18" with ridiculous output..... All fantastic venues to more then overcome the output of the likes of what JL has to offer.... He is accustom too, and likely willing to go the DIY route which will remove the limits that are set down by commercial subs as you know....


Why are commercial subs limited to what they can do with power? i read about this on here in some thread but i forgot the reason.

Why are commercial subs limited to what they can do with power? i read about this on here in some thread but i forgot the reason.

There is only so much power you can extract from common house current, ala 110/120v, 15/20A.

Does anyone else wonder how much performance chasing can be remedied by putting in a dedicated circuit powering subs?

Does anyone else wonder how much performance chasing can be remedied by putting in a dedicated circuit powering subs?

Personally, I've never wondered this. If you choose the right sub design for a particular room, running out of power should never be a problem without having to resort to rewiring.

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

So if someone is running 4,000 watts of amplification with some power hungry speakers, a large plasma and say 2 or 3 subs at full tilt on a 20 amp household circuit, there won't be voltage sags?

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

So if someone is running 4,000 watts of amplification with some power hungry speakers, a large plasma and say 2 or 3 subs at full tilt on a 20 amp household circuit, there won't be voltage sags?

That's just the point. I see very little reason for having to run 4k watts of amplification. If you need to fill a huge, inefficient space with sound, it's better to use efficent gear instead of rowing against the tides. Why choose power-hungry speakers in a space like that? In a smaller sealed space, it should never even be an issue even with inefficient gear.

Mike....you're killing me. :)

Efficiency can only take you so far, then you need to add more power.

What kind of levels are you looking for? Do you require more than reference levels? If so, I'd suggest gear with pro-sound efficiency like JTR and Danley. With efficiency like that, several hundred watts will more than deafen you. If not, reference levels can be achieved with moderately efficient gear in very large rooms. I've managed to do so in a very big 6000cu.ft. open space, four subs, large TV, and all associated equipment all running at once off of standard home circuitry.

Does anyone else wonder how much performance chasing can be remedied by putting in a dedicated circuit powering subs?

Not me! I ran three dedicated HT circuits, 2 just for amps...

...you need to add more power.

You sound like Tim Allen. :D

By the way, I'm not saying that dedicated circuitry is a bad idea. I'm saying that there are alternative means of achieving the goals of high SPL and deep bass.

Mike....you're killing me. :)

Efficiency can only take you so far, then you need to add more power.

Jim you ready for the road trip?:D We iz going to Atlants to see what all the fuss is about the Danley TH50

By the way, I'm not saying that dedicated circuitry is a bad idea. I'm saying that there are alternative means of achieving the goals of high SPL and deep bass.

Better keep those kinds of comments in this thread and not in the DIY section.

That is the kind of blashemy that will get you burned at the 25 cf enclosure.:p

Better keep those kinds of comments in this thread and not in the DIY section.

That is the kind of blashemy that will get you burned at the 25 cf enclosure.:p

I don't know about that. One of the charms of DIY is being able to design and build alternatives that may be better suited to your needs than what is offered comercially. In some cases, this may involve designs which are highly efficient powerwise. If you take a look at many of the recent threads, many involve super-efficient subs like the Danley kit and the Tuba horn designs.

Of course there is the opposite school of DIY thought which involves multiple sealed subs with thousands of watts of power. There's nothing wrong with that, but there are many ways to skin a cat.

You sound like Tim Allen. :D

I do like power tools. :D

I don't know about that. One of the charms of DIY is being able to design and build alternatives that may be better suited to your needs than what is offered comercially. In some cases, this may involve designs which are highly efficient powerwise. If you take a look at many of the recent threads, many involve super-efficient subs like the Danley kit and the Tuba horn designs.

Of course there is the opposite school of DIY thought which involves multiple sealed subs with thousands of watts of power. There's nothing wrong with that, but there are many ways to skin a cat.

Just joshin' ya. :)

I am in the sealed kw group.;)

Lately I find myself increasingly attracted to very efficent speakers, especially the new JTR's with the snazzy veneers. One of the things that actually keeps me from them is that I know they will have me listening to stuff even louder than I already do. As it is, I have some hearing damage and I'm trying not to worsen it too much. :(

Lately I find myself increasingly attracted to very efficent speakers, especially the new JTR's with the snazzy veneers. One of the things that actually keeps me from them is that I know they will have me listening to stuff even louder than I already do. As it is, I have some hearing damage and I'm trying not to worsen it too much. :(

I am sure that I am in the hearing damage camp. Ahh, the old days of insane car stereos. :o

I've been listening to music at high volume for 40+ years. This has been at home, in the car, and in some cases at live shows at levels that felt like they were blowing my hair back. Unfortunately, there is no fix for hearing damage.

I've been listening to music at high volume for 40+ years. This has been at home, in the car, and in some cases at live shows at levels that felt like they were blowing my hair back. Unfortunately, there is no fix for hearing damage.

I am with your there in every regard. I actually get mad when they overdrive audio at concerts for no good reason.

There are some terrifc earplugs out there called "Hearos" which will reduce the volume without drastically messing up the frequency balance. I take them with me whenever I go to live shows.

There are some terrifc earplugs out there called "Hearos" which will reduce the volume without drastically messing up the frequency balance. I take them with me whenever I go to live shows.

Thanks for that little tidbit mojo! :cool:

I will look those up.:)

There is only so much power you can extract from common house current, ala 110/120v, 15/20A.

Ok so what makes DIY subs so different?

Ok so what makes DIY subs so different?

Same limitations on 110/120v power.

However, it is easier/cheaper to get more power from an outboard pro amp than a built in one that you find on most consumer subs. So, that helps eliminate one constraint. Also, with many pro amps you can go to a 220v setup and get even more power. Of course, there are other constraints to deal with. With the exception of the JL 113, most commercial subs do not have more thatn 1300w available and that limits what can be done with a small sealed driver/enlcosure. Many pro amps can get 2500+ and up to several kilowatts with dedicated circuits and 220v.

The JL amps are the closest thing going to outboard amps that are built in, which is what helps to make the the JL line so potent.

I know that the JL is tighter than the Klipsch RT-12D. I was having a lot of rattliing at higher SPL and was not feeling the "in your chest" sound pressure during movies. U571 did not even cause much pressuriztion during the Depth Charge scene.

I want tot pressurize the scenes at low (20Hz). I don't have room for 2 monster subs. I thought the JL would take of both requirements. Am I wrong? Will 2 JL's best one RT-12d?

I know that the JL is tighter than the Klipsch RT-12D. I was having a lot of rattliing at higher SPL and was not feeling the "in your chest" sound pressure during movies. U571 did not even cause much pressuriztion during the Depth Charge scene.

I want tot pressurize the scenes at low (20Hz). I don't have room for 2 monster subs. I thought the JL would take of both requirements. Am I wrong? Will 2 JL's best one RT-12d?

If you're looking for real power at 20hz, the JL is simply the wrong sub for that particular job. That isn't what it was designed for. Just for an example, a single PB13 will put out as much 20hz bass as a pair of f113's. At higher frequencies, the JL starts to put out some impressive levels.

The Klipsch RT-12D is no 20hz monster either. Ed Mullen measured it at 90.5dB with 15.2% distortion at 20hz.

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_13_4/klipsch-rt-12d-subwoofer-december-2006-part-2.html

Even in the upper bass, it never hits higher than 110dB when distortion limited. The JL F113 has a maximum of around 117dB.

Actually, the 113 is quite the performer at 20Hz. It is one the best commercial offerings around at that level, and probably the best commercial/small/sealed available, next to DIY of course. Below that it drops off rapidly but damn good performance at 20.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/5748-cea-2010-standard-compilation.html

Scroll to the bottom graph, >100db @ 20hz anechoic/THD limted is impressive by any measure. Two of them in room, will give me considerably more.:)

I have a pair of JL Audio Gotham G213 sub woofers. I wonder how they would compare to four F113's?

Each Gotham has a 3800 watt amp instead of 2500 watts per sub for the F113's, but the Gotham has an advantage of a lot more enclosure volume than a pair of F113's.

I have 6 dedicated 20 amp circuits for my home theater. 1 for each of the Gothams, 1 for my Earthquake Sound Cinenova Grande 7 amp, 1 for my Denon AVR-5308, 1 for the TV, and 1 for the other components. I know it's overkill, but I'm a firm believer in overkill!!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=114019&d=1214532787


Here are a couple of youtube videos of my Gotham subs in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5tdPhaNAUY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pnaf337YU0

Same limitations on 110/120v power.

However, it is easier/cheaper to get more power from an outboard pro amp than a built in one that you find on most consumer subs. So, that helps eliminate one constraint. Also, with many pro amps you can go to a 220v setup and get even more power. Of course, there are other constraints to deal with. With the exception of the JL 113, most commercial subs do not have more thatn 1300w available and that limits what can be done with a small sealed driver/enlcosure. Many pro amps can get 2500+ and up to several kilowatts with dedicated circuits and 220v.

The JL amps are the closest thing going to outboard amps that are built in, which is what helps to make the the JL line so potent.

I see, thanks for the explanation, good to know that about JL also.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=114019&d=1214532787

:eek::eek::eek:

By the looks of things with the room size, twin Gothams appears to be what I would term incredible. The room pressurization must be mind numbing. I would say that twin Gothams would out perform four F113's overall. However, it might be a close call, I don't know. I originally considered one Gotham vs. two F113's but the sheer size, weight and room integration made it impossible to consider in an upstairs family room HT set up. I could not conceive of lugging 300+ lbs of subwoofer upstairs.

Having said that, twin F113's provide a mind blowing experience in my room and with the set up do go well below 20 hz with weight, authority and air movement. I worked with Barry Ober on room placement and set up plus integration to obtain the best I could get. In my placement with Barry's computer models, he advised the performance should be superb and indeed it is. I could only imagine the same placement with twin Gotham's.

So, the Gotham remains in my dreams, but I am supremely happy with twin F113's more than I could ever imagine.

Actually, the 113 is quite the performer at 20Hz. It is one the best commercial offerings around at that level, and probably the best commercial/small/sealed available, next to DIY of course. Below that it drops off rapidly but damn good performance at 20.

http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/subwoofer-tests-archived/5748-cea-2010-standard-compilation.html

Scroll to the bottom graph, >100db @ 20hz anechoic/THD limted is impressive by any measure. Two of them in room, will give me considerably more.:)

I dunno. I fail to be impressed with a "mighty" 101db @ 20hz when it is beat out by a lowly PB12NSD (new) making 102db @ 20hz. Also, these tests are from a few years ago. There are many subs out there now capable of more output at 20hz than two f113's for half the cost of one f113. That doesn't make the f113 a bad sub. It's just not a strong deep bass sub.

I dunno. I fail to be impressed with a "mighty" 101db @ 20hz when it is beat out by a lowly PB12NSD (new) making 102db @ 20hz. Also, these tests are from a few years ago. There are many subs out there now capable of more output at 20hz than two f113's for half the cost of one f113. That doesn't make the f113 a bad sub. It's just not a strong deep bass sub.

It is mighty impressive below 20 hz in fact. This is just one test of many. Before we all go off on the deep end remember there are tons of subs that can go low. But there is a lot more to QUALITY bass down low compared to just thump, thump, thump of which I have heard all too many. I am not a fan of the PB for that reason. To me, it is too dark, woolly and thumpy compared to the incredibly controlled, tight, fast and tuneful bass out of the JL. Besides, the JL also excels into reference level for music with how it can handle pacing at immense sound pressure levels with both the guitar and drum kit. Further, at high volumes how it handles upright bass is startlingly fast, and clean. VERY few subs can do that. And, that is what separates the JL's from the pack.

There is more than just the fat, woolly, HT flop to be had. Music rules for me with HT behind it. The JL's simply rule on musical lines.

You live in S. Fl. Go to the JL HQ and ask for a tour and listen for yourself in a well set up room. I would jump at that chance if I lived in S. Fl. Alas, I am on the oppsosite end of the country.

I dunno. I fail to be impressed with a "mighty" 101db @ 20hz when it is beat out by a lowly PB12NSD (new) making 102db @ 20hz. Also, these tests are from a few years ago. There are many subs out there now capable of more output at 20hz than two f113's for half the cost of one f113. That doesn't make the f113 a bad sub. It's just not a strong deep bass sub.

Maybe so on the SVS, but you are comparing a ported sub to a sealed sub which is no comparison at all!

Any commercial sealed sub with that kind of performance would have been unheard of a few years ago. Remember that is anechoic, with room gain you will get another few db. There is no substiture for physics, a larger enclosure ported sub will win out everytime. I mean there is a reason the amps 2000w plus. It takes trememdous amounts of power and excursion to get to that level. You are talking about a small 13" driver in a very small cabinet here.

Besides all that, do you really thing the entry level SVS is in the same league with the JL with sound quality?

Mike I wanted to ask you this. On my new Fathom when setting the ARO it will not catch until the master volume know is at close to the 4 o clock position. My other Fathoms caught when it was at the 2 o clock position. Does this mean anything?:eek:

What are the other settings on the sub?

The F113 design goal was excellent bass [SPL, Freq. Response and Distortion] in a small and handsome package. I think they nailed it but I'm quite bias.

So folks you got to move on with trying to fault this product when comparing to other units with different design goals! Like I have said before the F113 is not the end all to low extension and SPL in that region but that, as I understand, was not the main objective.

Here is a well respected product from a leader in the biz but it ain't cheap...
http://www.genelecusa.com/ht/products/subwoofers/hts6/

This sub continues to impress me year after year at CEDIA. Now I have not spent much time with the G213 Gotham neither.

The F113 design goal was excellent bass [SPL, Freq. Response and Distortion] in a small and handsome package. I think they nailed it but I'm quite bias.

So folks you got to move on with trying to fault this product when comparing to other units with different design goals! .

Hey, I am with you. If I was to go back to commercial the 113 would be and was at one time at the top of a short list. It is a formidable package for sure.

I have a pair of JL Audio Gotham G213 sub woofers. I wonder how they would compare to four F113's?

Each Gotham has a 3800 watt amp instead of 2500 watts per sub for the F113's, but the Gotham has an advantage of a lot more enclosure volume than a pair of F113's.

I have 6 dedicated 20 amp circuits for my home theater. 1 for each of the Gothams, 1 for my Earthquake Sound Cinenova Grande 7 amp, 1 for my Denon AVR-5308, 1 for the TV, and 1 for the other components. I know it's overkill, but I'm a firm believer in overkill!!

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=114019&d=1214532787

geeze, two gothams and youre still sportin a DLP rear projection?? OUCH :D

geeze, two gothams and youre still sportin a DLP rear projection?? OUCH :D

Show me a 73" plasma and I'll buy it!! Besides the diamond vision has great image quality. DLP's are VASTLY underrated.

I'm working on getting a projection system with a 110" to 120" screen.

Show me a 73" plasma and I'll buy it!! Besides the diamond vision has great image quality. DLP's are VASTLY underrated.

I'm working on getting a projection system with a 110" to 120" screen.

from the looks of it the room looks pretty dark so i was going to recommend a projector. with dlps at my friends houses i would always get used to how "dim" the picture was because of how incredibly finnicky the viewing angle was and then once i got a plasma it was like a veil was lifted from my eyes, i figure projector will be the same way. would complete the experience for sure

I have a pair of JL Audio Gotham G213 sub woofers.

CadmanDigital4U, that is simply stunning.!http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/BBS/images/smiles/righton_smilie.gif

Rock on!!:cool:

P.S. When it came out a few years back, I had the first generation of the Mitsu 73" Diamond 1080p DLP. I forget the model number though.

Hey Thersa11 and Fbomb1 have MORE "used" Fathoms for sale on Audiogon!!! WOW, that makes over 12 Fathoms for Thersa11 this year alone and nearly that for Fbomb1!! they obviously arent dealers selling subs, they MUST just be avid fans of JL. SO much so that they want to spread wealth. WTF LOL!!!! JL is fast becoming a joke!!! Once again, where is Manville Smith or Carl Kennedy to address this situation? If it were a questionable review, they'd chime in in a heartbeat, but their silence speaks louder than their words ever will at this point. its too bad too because JL was once a pretty exclusive, high end product. now you can just click on Audiogon and get "back alley" sub deals right at dealer cost. Its a shame really.

Maybe so on the SVS, but you are comparing a ported sub to a sealed sub which is no comparison at all!

Any commercial sealed sub with that kind of performance would have been unheard of a few years ago. Remember that is anechoic, with room gain you will get another few db. There is no substiture for physics, a larger enclosure ported sub will win out everytime. I mean there is a reason the amps 2000w plus. It takes trememdous amounts of power and excursion to get to that level. You are talking about a small 13" driver in a very small cabinet here.

Besides all that, do you really thing the entry level SVS is in the same league with the JL with sound quality?

I never said the PB12NSD was in the same league with the JL. That would be crazy. The JL costs 5X more and is clearly considered to be a great sub. I was mearly responding to "thecutter" who said:
I want tot pressurize the scenes at low (20Hz).

I pointed out that the JL was not the best instrument for that job since it wasn't designed for what thecutter was looking to do. In other words, why buy two small, expensive compact sealed subs for the purpose of pressurizing a room at 20hz when clearly physics dictates that there are several subs available of other designs that can do this task better? Why fight with physics? Physics always wins.

This doesn't imply that NSD is a better sub or that it sounds better overall. I'm certain that it does not.

I am with you man, just clarifying for those that may read this and get the wrong idea.:)

Hey Thersa11 and Fbomb1 have MORE "used" Fathoms for sale on Audiogon!!! WOW, that makes over 12 Fathoms for Thersa11 this year alone and nearly that for Fbomb1!! they obviously arent dealers selling subs, they MUST just be avid fans of JL. SO much so that they want to spread wealth. WTF LOL!!!! JL is fast becoming a joke!!! Once again, where is Manville Smith or Carl Kennedy to address this situation? If it were a questionable review, they'd chime in in a heartbeat, but their silence speaks louder than their words ever will at this point. its too bad too because JL was once a pretty exclusive, high end product. now you can just click on Audiogon and get "back alley" sub deals right at dealer cost. Its a shame really.

You must be a pissed off brick and mortar dealer. I thank them for driving down the price on Jl Products. You must be the one guy who pays sticker for a new car. lmao

The funny thing is, if you look back at the beginning of this thread, I mentioned they were all over the internet for $2500 and under when they first came out. Only after the magazine reviews started rolling in did the dealers jump up to retail or close to it. Now as the product life cycle continue they are returning to what they were. It is no different than most other dealer to consumer setups with high markups.

Show me a 73" plasma and I'll buy it!! Besides the diamond vision has great image quality. DLP's are VASTLY underrated.

I'm working on getting a projection system with a 110" to 120" screen.


Here ya go... https://clevelandplasma.com/store/plasma_tv_s/panasonic/panasonic_th_85pf12uk

Panasonic 85" Plasma... take some pics when you get it installed...

What are the other settings on the sub?

Mike Heres the settings. The same as I used on the other Fathoms

Lp filter- off
crossed over @ 80 htz
elf- 0
phase- 0
polarity-0

m just wondering why I have to have it cranked to catch the ARO. It is in the same exact place as the others were.

Mike Heres the settings. The same as I used on the other Fathoms

Lp filter- off
crossed over @ 80 htz
elf- 0
phase- 0
polarity-0

m just wondering why I have to have it cranked to catch the ARO. It is in the same exact place as the others were.

The different "batches" of subs have different sensitivities. For example, if I press "demo" on the front pair of subs at reference level the output is different from my rear pair. However, with test signals and sounds it is the same. Perhaps this explains the ARO difference in your subs.

I've been playing around a bit with the ARC room correction in my Anthem D2. I've gotten it to the point of "WOW" in the past but now it's like "WOOOOOW". It's unreal when you don't HEAR a whole lot of bass in some scenes but you FEEL your clothes rustling a bit. Star Trek was a great movie and the sound effects were superb.

Mike Heres the settings. The same as I used on the other Fathoms

Lp filter- off
crossed over @ 80 htz
elf- 0
phase- 0
polarity-0

m just wondering why I have to have it cranked to catch the ARO. It is in the same exact place as the others were.

Master - Slave or are you using a "Y" cable at the sub output on your AVR?

It might be what BOOG is speaking of as well.

Send me an email and we will take it from there.

You must be a pissed off brick and mortar dealer. I thank them for driving down the price on Jl Products. You must be the one guy who pays sticker for a new car. lmao

Hey Thersa11 and Fbomb1 have MORE "used" Fathoms for sale on Audiogon!!! WOW, that makes over 12 Fathoms for Thersa11 this year alone and nearly that for Fbomb1!! they obviously arent dealers selling subs, they MUST just be avid fans of JL. SO much so that they want to spread wealth. WTF LOL!!!! JL is fast becoming a joke!!! Once again, where is Manville Smith or Carl Kennedy to address this situation? If it were a questionable review, they'd chime in in a heartbeat, but their silence speaks louder than their words ever will at this point. its too bad too because JL was once a pretty exclusive, high end product. now you can just click on Audiogon and get "back alley" sub deals right at dealer cost. Its a shame really.


Kut,

The auto industry is not the same business model! Back in the good old days, before economic downturn and our present ression like climate, the auto biz sold new cars for two reasons. #1 to sell service checkups during the warranty period [GM, FORD, etc paid the dealers a regional rate for service, they got paid without charging the customer! not bad] and #2 to sell used cars at higher markup. Often times car dealers got "lot incentives" so not to have to pay "floor plan" interest on inventory as well as spiffs on "model promos" [sell 100 model XYZ pickups and get dealer cash of $350 each or whatever]. Therefore if you take the car to the dealer for the life of the car trust me they get it back. Most folk are in and out of cars every 3-5 years. Its like it is an ongoing expense vs. trying to pay it off and retire the debt.

Side,

Yep Theresa is a JL ho! I bet guys think it is a woman to boot! Chances are "Theresa" is either a dealer or affiliated with one since we all know she/he has not gone through a dozen Fathoms the past year...

I doubt few of the Fathoms have been sold for MSRP unless it was the first wave when production was slow. Like I said before some offer tier pricing based on the level of "deployment services" required by the end user. However I must admit $1800 for a satin F113 that the wife did not like the color and the bass was too much for my neighbor in the adjoining condo is bit odd time after time after time.

If you car to PM me we can chat more.

i plan on running my duals as two Masters. I will y the XLR output on my integra 9.9. Run separate cables to each sub. Then I will run ARO on each sub separately. I will then set the volume on each with pink noise and the Volume set at Variable "0". Then adjust on the preamp when running both together.

Is this a good way to do it?

Anyone?

i plan on running my duals as two Masters. I will y the XLR output on my integra 9.9. Run separate cables to each sub. Then I will run ARO on each sub separately. I will then set the volume on each with pink noise and the Volume set at Variable "0". Then adjust on the preamp when running both together.

Is this a good way to do it?


If there are distance differences between the two subs, you'll need to adjust the phase control to align their arrival times at the listening position.

Lee

Here ya go... https://clevelandplasma.com/store/plasma_tv_s/panasonic/panasonic_th_85pf12uk

Panasonic 85" Plasma... take some pics when you get it installed...


i will take one of these for my bedroom :).

tnt

You must be a pissed off brick and mortar dealer. I thank them for driving down the price on Jl Products. You must be the one guy who pays sticker for a new car. lmao maybe I am a dealer, maybe I'm not. what I pay for products has nothing to do with this situation, but if you feel the need to apparently laugh your ass off kutlow, go for it buddy. CAAAAARL...............MAAAAANVILLE? where are you?? By your rational kutlow, you are trying to give me grief for making JL accountable for their actions and words. so I am the bad guy in this? very interesting point of view indeed.:rolleyes:

i plan on running my duals as two Masters. I will y the XLR output on my integra 9.9. Run separate cables to each sub. Then I will run ARO on each sub separately. I will then set the volume on each with pink noise and the Volume set at Variable "0". Then adjust on the preamp when running both together.

Is this a good way to do it?

Asked and answered:
MY AVR only has one RCA Subwoofer out therefore the Y adaptor so I can run an RCA to each Subs left input. If I run both 113 as masters this means that each will be calibrated individually with it's own MIC and ARO Is that correct?

That is correct, but it may not be the best way to do it. Running ARO on each sub individually will correct each sub individually. But if you play them together, you don't *hear* each of them individually. You *hear* them combined into one sound. If the response of the two individually corrected subs is still corrected properly after they are combined, then that is the best way to do it. However, you can't know this unless you can measure the response.

OTOH, if you run them Master/Slave, then ARO is run on the *combined* response. It will not correct each sub individually, but it will correct the sound that you actually hear.

The other advantage of Master/Slave is that the subs will be ideally gain-matched. The gain setting of the Master will be used to control the gain of the slave. This ensures they both have the same output for a given input.

I suggest you try it both ways if possible and see if you prefer one to the other.

Craig
:)

I tred it.:( I was underwhelmed. My Klipsch had more oomph. I may need to sell these. I was not impressed at all. What the hell was all the hype?:mad:

I tred it.:( I was underwhelmed. My Klipsch had more oomph. I may need to sell these. I was not impressed at all. What the hell was all the hype?:mad:

Well, read all the thread from the beginning and you'll find out. Better yet, double-check your installation.
Oh... If you're looking for a big booom baaaam, this sub may not be the one. If you are after quality bass, again, re-think your installation.

I tred it.:( I was underwhelmed. My Klipsch had more oomph. I may need to sell these. I was not impressed at all. What the hell was all the hype?:mad:

Ooomph is a subjective term. You probably had 50% or much more THD coming from your Klipsch at high output levels. Cleaner ouput can often sound like it has much less impact at first listen.

I thouht that with a 4" excursion, this sub would move lots of air. More than my Klipsch. It seems tighter with music but it lags on HT.

I tred it.:( I was underwhelmed. My Klipsch had more oomph. I may need to sell these. I was not impressed at all. What the hell was all the hype?:mad:

Any chance you can do a FR sweep with an SPL meter and REW?


Also, can you post pics of the room with the subs to see what we are working with and also the dimensions?

I tred it.:( I was underwhelmed. My Klipsch had more oomph. I may need to sell these. I was not impressed at all. What the hell was all the hype?:mad:


Is this for music or movies?

The JL is fine for music but it is a complete waste of money for movies.

btw, there is always going to be hype and subjectivity in audio. There are enough measurements to tell you JL is not the top performer out there for movies, subjective opinion will always exist you just have to start ignoring any opinion that has zero evidence behind it and in this case its just a matter of physics...small box, sealed, smallish driver will never equate to best performance down low.

Now, I will not argue that for its footprint the JL is really good!!

The JL is fine for music but it is a complete waste of money for movies.
I would have to strongly disagree with that comment.

I would have to strongly disagree with that comment.

Thats fine you can "strongly" agree all you want as I just posted subjectivity is always high for a product like this.

The numbers are with me!

My buddy has 5 JLs in his HT room and he always wonder why mine two rooms are better....I just say AUDIO SCIENCE not HYPE ;)

Is this for music or movies?

The JL is fine for music but it is a complete waste of money for movies.

btw, there is always going to be hype and subjectivity in audio. There are enough measurements to tell you JL is not the top performer out there for movies, subjective opinion will always exist you just have to start ignoring any opinion that has zero evidence behind it and in this case its just a matter of physics...small box, sealed, smallish driver will never equate to best performance down low.

Now, I will not argue that for its footprint the JL is really good!!

Well Penn, objectively speaking the JL trounces his Klipsch, which is the topic of this conversation. We all know the JL is limited below 21hz in terms of raw output and extension compared to other MUCH larger subs. But then again, anyone who does their homework knows that is not why they purchase these subs.

You know Penn, we normally see eye to eye, at least in our perspectives on the subjectivity aspect of the snake oil that gets peddled (to an extent on my behalf anyway). But if you'd read the posts about the Cutters JL's from the previous two posts instead of just latching to the one you quoted, I think you would not have posted that comment.

Unless of course you have read, and decided to post your comment anyway. :p

So are you saying that JL is "not the top performer out there for movies"? Or are you saying "[JL] is a complete waste of money for movies"?

Because those are two completely different statements. I won't disagree if it's the first, but I will strongly disagree if it's the second.

So are you saying that JL is "not the top performer out there for movies"? Or are you saying "[JL] is a complete waste of money for movies"?

Because those are two completely different statements. I won't disagree if it's the first, but I will strongly disagree if it's the second.

They go hand in hand for me....When you can spend 1/2 the money for HT performance then I have to conclude the product that is 2x the money is a waste for HT.

Now, you have to realize. Im talking about pure performance where footprint has no meaning.

Someone that requires a nice small footprint and still wants performance then sure JL has done something great but we are still compromising overall performance. I will agree that we have to compromise somewhere in many cases.

Well Penn, objectively speaking the JL trounces his Klipsch, which is the topic of this conversation. We all know the JL is limited below 21hz in terms of raw output and extension compared to other MUCH larger subs. But then again, anyone who does their homework knows that is not why they purchase these subs.

You know Penn, we normally see eye to eye, at least in our perspectives on the subjectivity aspect of the snake oil that gets peddled (to an extent on my behalf anyway). But if you'd read the posts about the Cutters JL's from the previous two posts instead of just latching to the one you quoted, I think you would not have posted that comment.

Unless of course you have read, and decided to post your comment anyway. :p

Im talking about his opinion on the "hype" actually and not the Klipsch comparison.

I was trying to point out that all products are going to be hyped especially in their owners thread. There is enough data out there (outside of the owners thread) to tell help him decide and if this was for Movies (which I do not know) then it wasnt the right choice.

I actually agree with other opinion that maybe he hasn't experienced very clean bass. Which the JL does very well because even though I posted that Movies are better in my room, my buddy has a better music setup with 5 JLs (he makes too much money!! :eek:)

Im talking about his opinion on the "hype" actually and not the Klipsch comparison.

I was trying to point out that all products are going to be hyped especially in their owners thread. There is enough data out there (outside of the owners thread) to tell help him decide and if this was for Movies (which I do not know) then it wasnt the right choice.

I actually agree with other opinion that maybe he hasn't experienced very clean bass. Which the JL does very well because even though I posted that Movies are better in my room, my buddy has a better music setup with 5 JLs (he makes too much money!! :eek:)


Have 'em throw some my way. :p

I understand completely Penn, but his statement was quoted out of context, because he made that statement strictly based off his preference of his past Klipsch.

I think it is pretty obvious that the JL are not the cats meow for HT. The OP actually knows this, because he DID DO some research before he purchased. He even had his own thread with many posters telling him that the JL was not end all, be all for subsonic extension.

I will agree that there are certainly larger subs out there that will be much better for pure movie performance. But I think the "waste of money" statement, although valid in some respects, is probably a tiny bit more inflammatory than it needs to be. :D

I will agree that there are certainly larger subs out there that will be much better for pure movie performance. But I think the "waste of money" statement, although valid in some respects, is probably a tiny bit more inflammatory than it needs to be. :D

I would agree. I mean when compared to DIY, yes, insanely priced.

But, the JL is a good performer in every regard. The type of performance available at the price of the JL was unheard only a few years ago, not to mention in an overal package with that level of aesthetics and size.

Have 'em throw some my way. :p

I understand completely Penn, but his statement was quoted out of context, because he made that statement strictly based off his preference of his past Klipsch.

I think it is pretty obvious that the JL are not the cats meow for HT. The OP actually knows this, because he DID DO some research before he purchased. He even had his own thread with many posters telling him that the JL was not end all, be all for subsonic extension.

very true!

I will agree that there are certainly larger subs out there that will be much better for pure movie performance. But I think the "waste of money" statement, although valid in some respects, is probably a tiny bit more inflammatory than it needs to be. :D



"Waste of money" is just a very common term for me. So I never consider it inflammatory whatsoever, sorry about that :D

They go hand in hand for me....When you can spend 1/2 the money for HT performance then I have to conclude the product that is 2x the money is a waste for HT.

Now, you have to realize. Im talking about pure performance where footprint has no meaning.

Someone that requires a nice small footprint and still wants performance then sure JL has done something great but we are still compromising overall performance. I will agree that we have to compromise somewhere in many cases.


Given that the majority of JL owners seem to find the footprint a significant driver for purchasing the sub, taking size out of the equation then comparing subs isn't a particularly valid method. Not everyone has an environment conducive to multiple refrigerator sized subs, or the layout or desire to DIY an IB solution.

Sort of like "Aside from that Mrs. Lincoln, how did you like the play?"

Not to mention that this thread is comparing a specific Klipsch sub to the JL, not a statement that the JL is the ultimate sub for HT where there are no size limits or other constraints. Is the JL the best no compromise sub for HT? No, though for music, it's a top performer. Is the JL the best sub of it's size for HT? It's certainly in the running in that category.

penngray,

what sub are you using in your HT?


Thats fine you can "strongly" agree all you want as I just posted subjectivity is always high for a product like this.

The numbers are with me!

My buddy has 5 JLs in his HT room and he always wonder why mine two rooms are better....I just say AUDIO SCIENCE not HYPE ;)

the best sub is the one you've already paid for.
just go ahead and enjoy!!

The Klipsch did a good job with music. The bass did get boomy at times. It would bottom out frequently during HT use, with driver flapping. I wanted more headroom, but my space was limited. I thought I could fit 2 jl's but not 2 Klipsch RT'12d's and certainly not 2 SVS PB-13's. JL was a good compromise. When I got them for 40% off list, it was a no brainer bargain.

The reviews say they are great for music and will "knock your socks off " for HT. Needless 2 say I am still wearing my socks.:(

Yes I'm a JL owner. I also have dedicated room and could buy any sub I needed. I'm sorry two huge subs would not look good in my decor no matter how you place them in the room! So I don't get the sub 21 HZ info. Oh well guess I'll really be disappointed when watching the movie and I cannot hear/feel that last 10 HZ of it. Wait I'm already shaking doors and walls in the other rooms? Some of you are way too hung up on specs, how about this tidbit. When you are watching a movie and there's an upcoming scene with action or a suspenseful scene doesn't MUSIC usually accompany the scene in question? Movies have more than special efx throughout them. The music usually makes the movie and that to me is that much more enjoyable.

Hey everyone, this is my first post!

I have ordered 2 F110s for use in a room that is 12' x 15'. Paired with Vienna Acoustics Mozarts. They will be used 50/50 music and HT.

The advice from the dealer was that the 110s would be more than adequate considering the room size, the listening levels (generally moderate...) and the fact that the small room will inhibit frequency response on the ultra low end. He thought the 112s would be nice, albeit a bit excessive, and that 113s would be overkill.

After sifting through dozens of pages of this thread, I'm starting to wonder if the 110s will be able to hang with the LFE in modern soundtracks and some demanding low end on the music side (metal, hip hop, no pipe organs).

Is it worth the extra cash to hedge with the 112s or is this just buyers remorse getting the best of me after a reasonable decision to go with the 110s?

Would love to her your thoughts!

-J

It took a while but the subs are here...ended up switching to 112s based on everything I read here (and elsewhere). Thanks for all the input...now the real work begins!

Next question, can you run Master/Slave over either connection?

Also, :D :D :D

I just watched Terminator Salvation and am only running a single Fathom F113 at +2 and it sounded very nice. The bass this sub puts out is a clean thick realistic sound. Ive heard other subs that go a little lower but it isnt quality bass and darn sure did not sound realistic.

The reviews say they are great for music and will "knock your socks off " for HT. Needless 2 say I am still wearing my socks.:(
It's all about expectations I think. My socks are off. When I put in "Black Hawk Down" and the choppers crank up, I can literally feel the air pressure hitting me in the chest. I can't even listen to it at Dolby reference level because it's too much. That's a single F113 in a 17x15 room.

The problem here is that people look at objective measurements and then have subjective experiences. So by their very nature, there's no way in hell they're going to match for everyone.

If you're not happy with the JL, then sell it and buy something you are happy with, it's really that easy. No one can make you happy with something that you're not.

it's all about expectations i think. My socks are off. When i put in "black hawk down" and the choppers crank up, i can literally feel the air pressure hitting me in the chest. I can't even listen to it at dolby reference level because it's too much. That's a single f113 in a 17x15 room.

The problem here is that people look at objective measurements and then have subjective experiences. So by their very nature, there's no way in hell they're going to match for everyone.

If you're not happy with the jl, then sell it and buy something you are happy with, it's really that easy. No one can make you happy with something that you're not.
amen!

We watched Terminator Salvation over the weekend. I have two f113's and it was scary good. I'm still grinning. I can't get over how tight and clean the bass is from these Fathoms. Absolutely no bloat at all.

It looks like some people with Fathoms are "blown away" while others are "underwhelmed". Expectations aside, the room plays a huge role in the bass response you'll experience at the listening position. I wish you could just drop the cash, drop them in place and be guaranteed stupendous bass but it doesn't work that way.

Penngray, I don't know which subs you have or your friend has but if he has 5 F113s and is underwhelmed in a reasonably sized room (i.e. not in a stadium) then something is set up wrong. I've got 4 F113s and they can go toe to toe with an IB system I've heard with 4 18 inch subs. It did take a while to get them dialled in but there's no shortage of output - and I LIKE bass.

It's all about expectations I think. My socks are off. When I put in "Black Hawk Down" and the choppers crank up, I can literally feel the air pressure hitting me in the chest. I can't even listen to it at Dolby reference level because it's too much. That's a single F113 in a 17x15 room.

The problem here is that people look at objective measurements and then have subjective experiences. So by their very nature, there's no way in hell they're going to match for everyone.

If you're not happy with the JL, then sell it and buy something you are happy with, it's really that easy. No one can make you happy with something that you're not.


My room is about the same size of yours,also I have a single F113 and I couldn't be happier..As much as like to get another one, and kidd about getting into twin arena it would be insane of me to do so..I'm going on 3 years with these babies, what they can do with music, and movies at their size is just incredible. What ever JL has up next, I'm definitely looking forward to, and probably upgrading to it if the retain the same SQ..

Djoel

Furthing the approval, disapproval debate of JL Audio F113 sound quality..

none of us are pro-reviewers or professionals in the audio industry.. (and if you are please stand up and chime in..)

.. if this subwoofer has recieved critical acclaim by the pro's AND postive feedback from the end user AND dealers are carrying them more and more these days.. what adds up is solid bracketing or honing of a smart buy for us, the consumer.

No other Internet Direct sub can compete from start to finish, manufacture to warranty, with JL Audio F113's level of refinement. The sub to beat was the Velodyne DD-18 and JL got it. Now, Paradigm is firing back with the Signature Sub 1, 2, and 25..

Still, size and sound quality is unmatched when it comes to JL Audio's F113.

Finally got Terminator Salvation today from netflix :). I will watch with a grin in my face.

tnt

Finally got Terminator Salvation today from netflix :). I will watch with a grin in my face.

tnt

If you haven't seen Star Trek yet that's a very good movie and the subs seemed to like it too. ;)

Got a chance to borrow a friend's Velodyne SMS-1 to take a reading of my room frequency. EQ was done with my Classe SSP800 PEQ and the JL F112 ARO.

Before with no EQ....(not bad)
http://3algdq.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pjQvbZA3UtbqTrYhwdrDL5lJTbhMfCoL6WXf2Rdb4rd4GAzbHAJbzxdgL7 2xu6XWLV8vxd7wzUSNcpSklE5Nxxc7sNs4mAtAw/7.Polarity%20to%20180%20deg.jpg

After with Classe PEQ....:D:D:D.
http://3algdq.blu.livefilestore.com/y1peNIjFzPym0685iOSmMIKwknvON6VWcMaZDVG_rgaGxPJslauy-IWAz0RnAqJjQFSLzKVTBQUymTEx9QOlxQnCTKzf9h8fCTv/8.Finally!!!.jpg

It looks like some people with Fathoms are "blown away" while others are "underwhelmed". Expectations aside, the room plays a huge role in the bass response you'll experience at the listening position. I wish you could just drop the cash, drop them in place and be guaranteed stupendous bass but it doesn't work that way.

Penngray, I don't know which subs you have or your friend has but if he has 5 F113s and is underwhelmed in a reasonably sized room (i.e. not in a stadium) then something is set up wrong. I've got 4 F113s and they can go toe to toe with an IB system I've heard with 4 18 inch subs. It did take a while to get them dialled in but there's no shortage of output - and I LIKE bass.

I think Penns argument is below the JL's capabilities. i.e. below 21hz or so.

I currently have a single atm and it shook things violently with TS and RotF. The only movie I've seen to date where I know I am missing something is Star Trek where there is loads of content below 20hz.

As to the cutter, the only solution is to measure the room and how the subs are interacting.

Like I said, I know the JL's are not the cats meow for HT, particularly with movies with subsonic LFE, but for him to feel the 12D outperformed his JL's, there has to be something terribly wrong which is why I asked if he could take pics of the subs, room, dimensions, and FR plot.

If you haven't seen Star Trek yet that's a very good movie and the subs seemed to like it too. ;)


What a room you have there.

Tnt

Got a chance to borrow a friend's Velodyne SMS-1 to take a reading of my room frequency. EQ was done with my Classe SSP800 PEQ and the JL F112 ARO.

Before with no EQ....(not bad)
http://3algdq.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pjQvbZA3UtbqTrYhwdrDL5lJTbhMfCoL6WXf2Rdb4rd4GAzbHAJbzxdgL7 2xu6XWLV8vxd7wzUSNcpSklE5Nxxc7sNs4mAtAw/7.Polarity%20to%20180%20deg.jpg

After with Classe PEQ....:D:D:D.
http://3algdq.blu.livefilestore.com/y1peNIjFzPym0685iOSmMIKwknvON6VWcMaZDVG_rgaGxPJslauy-IWAz0RnAqJjQFSLzKVTBQUymTEx9QOlxQnCTKzf9h8fCTv/8.Finally!!!.jpg




Hey Jose how you like the SMS-1's eQ with your JL? I love the features it has, and the remote volume control..Have you played with filters to try straighting out the graph a bit ?... A second look at your graph it looks like you have them pretty high..

I loved the tweakabliaty of this thing, too bad I sold mine:( I might have to buy one in the near future, or hopefully Velodyne comes up with a newer version, which I've been told they are not making such a thing...

Djoel

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2750/4195054653_b94b1e6c2a.jpg

I guess "compact sub" is a relative description. The JL sound quality simply outclasses my little Sunfire though. Thanks for all your hard work little guy. :)

Does any Full Range (Circa 12k range or under) speaker, play/sound as well, or better then 2 JL113's? (opinion)

I am speaking of 80hz and down. Full Range vs JL subs + Full Range and x-over.

My towers are McIntosh LS 360's (29hz)
To my ear, the JL sub is much better included and the notes carry weight.

I have a friend with 100k speaker and he uses subs.

Is there a large population of people who prefer to be subless for music reproduction?

Thanks

Hey Jose how you like the SMS-1's eQ with your JL? I love the features it has, and the remote volume control..Have you played with filters to try straighting out the graph a bit ?... A second look at your graph it looks like you have them pretty high..

I loved the tweakabliaty of this thing, too bad I sold mine:( I might have to buy one in the near future, or hopefully Velodyne comes up with a newer version, which I've been told they are not making such a thing...

Djoel

Hey D, I only borrowed my friend's sms-1 to take a room reading. ALL EQing was done with the JL and the Classe, an very, very little at that.
What's pretty high on the graph?

Hey D, I only borrowed my friend's sms-1 to take a room reading. ALL EQing was done with the JL and the Classe, an very, very little at that.
What's pretty high on the graph?




The Levers appear to be passed - sign...No biggie, I thought you were using the SMS-1's processing..


DJoel

Does any Full Range (Circa 12k range or under) speaker, play/sound as well, or better then 2 JL113's? (opinion)

I am speaking of 80hz and down. Full Range vs JL subs + Full Range and x-over.

My towers are McIntosh LS 360's (29hz)
To my ear, the JL sub is much better included and the notes carry weight.

I have a friend with 100k speaker and he uses subs.

Is there a large population of people who prefer to be subless for music reproduction?

Thanks

IMHO there's still a small percentage of "audiophiles" that still refuse to use a sub. They rationalize that their speakers "can go low enough without a sub"! I did think that way for awhile when I had my Martin logan Odyssey and Sequel II setup! Bought a REL Stentor III which changed my mine completely. Sold the REL after I sold the Martin Logans. I am presently using Wilson WP/7's and they can get to around 30 HZ and roll off when trying to reproduce the "deepest notes". When the JL is activated in the system the last octave is reinforced correctly without any bloated or localized bass at all. I believe when the sub is built and setup correctly it will add that last little bit of low frequency information that is present in the recording without calling attention to itself.

Is this for music or movies?

The JL is fine for music but it is a complete waste of money for movies.

btw, there is always going to be hype and subjectivity in audio. There are enough measurements to tell you JL is not the top performer out there for movies, subjective opinion will always exist you just have to start ignoring any opinion that has zero evidence behind it and in this case its just a matter of physics...small box, sealed, smallish driver will never equate to best performance down low.

Now, I will not argue that for its footprint the JL is really good!!

I hate when im set on getting a sub then i read post like this.

I want to get one just for HT, so your saying i should look elsewhere? i did my research and it seems the F113 is one of the best subs out there. not to mention i absolutely love that its so small but can put out so much power.

I'll be coming from a 10" definitive technology sub, i can't imagine not being blown away by the F113.

Saprano,

I think it depends on where your priority lies and the size of your room.

If you want the highest SPLs at the lowest frequencies so you can be blown back in your seat while watching Terminator or Star Trek, the F113 will perform admirably. But, there are better options when considering the stated goal. You could look at something with 3x the cabinet volume, get something ported, go DIY or get multiples of larger subs like SVS to achieve that goal. The end result might take up more room, sound fatter, or require a lot of labor/love to get the job done, but you could hit 110db at your listening position.

The F113 will still blow your hair back and do this in a relatively compact/sealed cabinet with sound quality that truly is impressive. Plus you have the build quality and features like ARO, master/slave operation on top of that make actual use of the sub that much more enjoyable.

I would encourage you to listen and choose the option that is the best match for what you want to do. Specs and forum comments can only do so much when trying to capture the details of a subjective experience.

/2¢ from a JL fan who is probably biased

IMHO there's still a small percentage of "audiophiles" that still refuse to use a sub. They rationalize that their speakers "can go low enough without a sub"! I did think that way for awhile when I had my Martin logan Odyssey and Sequel II setup! Bought a REL Stentor III which changed my mine completely. Sold the REL after I sold the Martin Logans. I am presently using Wilson WP/7's and they can get to around 30 HZ and roll off when trying to reproduce the "deepest notes". When the JL is activated in the system the last octave is reinforced correctly without any bloated or localized bass at all. I believe when the sub is built and setup correctly it will add that last little bit of low frequency information that is present in the recording without calling attention to itself.

Do you use an external x-over at circa 30hz?
From your listening tests, do you think your WP/7 are more accurate then JL subs from 80hz to say 30 hz or do you turn all low hz to the JL sub?

Thanks

I hate when im set on getting a sub then i read post like this.

I want to get one just for HT, so your saying i should look elsewhere? i did my research and it seems the F113 is one of the best subs out there. not to mention i absolutely love that its so small but can put out so much power.

I'll be coming from a 10" definitive technology sub, i can't imagine not being blown away by the F113.

I came from DT subs as well, and there is no comparison.

What a room you have there.

Tnt

why thank you. It's a great place to watch movies and listen to tunes. Trying to do that as much as possible now that my baby girls are finally beginning to sleep through the night!

I hate when im set on getting a sub then i read post like this.

I want to get one just for HT, so your saying i should look elsewhere? i did my research and it seems the F113 is one of the best subs out there. not to mention i absolutely love that its so small but can put out so much power.

I'll be coming from a 10" definitive technology sub, i can't imagine not being blown away by the F113.

My room has a fair bit of room gain at 20hz and under so the F113s can play quite well into the subsonics. Try and experience them or any other contender before purchasing to see if they meet your needs. I realize that there are subs that play louder and deeper but there are very few times that I feel that I need more and I consider myself a "bass lover". The size, shape, and construction of your room will play a huge role in the quality and quantity of bass you'll experience so don't rule anything out until you've tried them.

I hate when im set on getting a sub then i read post like this.

I want to get one just for HT, so your saying i should look elsewhere? i did my research and it seems the F113 is one of the best subs out there. not to mention i absolutely love that its so small but can put out so much power.

I'll be coming from a 10" definitive technology sub, i can't imagine not being blown away by the F113.


Saprano how far are you from Inwood?

You can pass by during the holidays and hear my F113, at the moment I have my center channel on the floor but that shouldn't affect the bass sq, just the dialog..

Djoel

Do you use an external x-over at circa 30hz?
From your listening tests, do you think your WP/7 are more accurate then JL subs from 80hz to say 30 hz or do you turn all low hz to the JL sub?

Thanks

Have not experimented with an external x/o yet. I would like to be like my hero "The Bogg" and acquire two more Fathoms. ;) I have a specific reference disc that I use called Bass Mekanik. This particular disc has frequency sweeps from 80HZ down to 1Hz. It's great for locating the crossover point and dropping off points between your main speakers and the subwoofers. I run my WP/7's full range and let the Fathoms come into play around 60HZ. To answer your question IMHO what makes the JL Fathom series so great is they are fast and tight woofers. It keeps pace with the WP/7's twin 8" scanspeak drivers.

You have to remember that JL audio started with car audio where there are insane SPL's and bass, that why I have used this disc since my car audio days, it will let you know right away if your subs can really output bass. I have owned quite a few different subwoofer systems since starting over 20 years ago with a Rogersound labs sub. :D

lol.

I've also been experimenting with the front pair of F113s blending in with the front ATCs. Once you pull out the measurement gear you can easily see how difficult it is to find the spot that has the best imaging and best bass. That's where it is useful to bring a top quality sub like the F113 in to fill in the lower notes (with the mains still running full range). I'm still playing around with it and it appears promising for sure.

Saprano,

I think it depends on where your priority lies and the size of your room.

If you want the highest SPLs at the lowest frequencies so you can be blown back in your seat while watching Terminator or Star Trek, the F113 will perform admirably. But, there are better options when considering the stated goal. You could look at something with 3x the cabinet volume, get something ported, go DIY or get multiples of larger subs like SVS to achieve that goal. The end result might take up more room, sound fatter, or require a lot of labor/love to get the job done, but you could hit 110db at your listening position.

The F113 will still blow your hair back and do this in a relatively compact/sealed cabinet with sound quality that truly is impressive. Plus you have the build quality and features like ARO, master/slave operation on top of that make actual use of the sub that much more enjoyable.

I would encourage you to listen and choose the option that is the best match for what you want to do. Specs and forum comments can only do so much when trying to capture the details of a subjective experience.

/2¢ from a JL fan who is probably biasedWell i want something that at leats gets to 20hz. i know bigger subs will obviously perform better but i dont want a bigger sub, not yet anyway. the size of the F113 is perfect.

Is there an advantage to ported subs?

The room im currently in is 12X10, but i'll be moving in january and im making sure to put my system in a bigger room, maby even the basement.

I plan to demo the F113 this upcoming week at my dealer in new york. im confident i'll like what i hear. penngrays comment about it being a waste for movies doesn't even sound right. i'll see for myself.

Saprano how far are you from Inwood?

You can pass by during the holidays and hear my F113, at the moment I have my center channel on the floor but that shouldn't affect the bass sq, just the dialog..

DjoelInwood? i've never hear of that area. would love to hear the F113 in a home environment.

Does any Full Range (Circa 12k range or under) speaker, play/sound as well, or better then 2 JL113's? (opinion)

I am speaking of 80hz and down. Full Range vs JL subs + Full Range and x-over.

My towers are McIntosh LS 360's (29hz)
To my ear, the JL sub is much better included and the notes carry weight.

I have a friend with 100k speaker and he uses subs.

Is there a large population of people who prefer to be subless for music reproduction?

Thanks

I have a set of Vienna Acoustics Mahlers and dual f113. Each mahler have two 10" drivers and the speakers are rated 22hz, and they indeed go that low.
The reason i use the subs is that i was not able to tame the bass response of the speakers due to position in the room. The subs can be flatten by audyssey with greater accuracy and make position easier, still, i am pretty sure that they are not located in the best possible spot (after over a year it's time to try but sure I need help) and still sound great and blend seamlessly.
if I have to use words to differentiate the sound I wound say that the f113 are detailed, dynamic and very accurate, while the mahler's are slightly rounded, powerful and romantic at the same time, but they do not have as much headroom as the two subs when playing loud, which is not what i usually do anyway. I could be happy with either one, but when it comes to the lowest and powerful notes the f113 have more to say.

Inwood? i've never hear of that area. would love to hear the F113 in a home environment.


Inwood is at the very top of Manhattan, or rather end part of the Island..

My system hasn't been properly calibrate in some time now, I have to re-run Audyssey and dial up the sub, I've been lazy and some what busy. I'll have some time over the break to attempt it though...
You can definitely pass by, and check out the sub. My room is about 14 by 18.5 and 9.5 ceiling

Daniel

I live in queensland Australia, hot and humid much like Florida I. I was told by an american HT custom installer that the F113 can have problems with the foam surrounding the cone deteriorating. Could be a problem in our climate. Has anyone had any experience with this problem? I am hoping the answer is no as I think the JL would be perfect for my mixed 2ch/Ht application.

Ray,

PM me your email address and I will give you some contacts at JLA that could answer your question.

I spent some time this morning eqing my sub based on some reading from an SMS1 I was using. I found setting the polarity to 180degrees and variable phase to 45 degrees. Both subs are up front (left and right of the center channel). Bass response looks good on paper but I was curious if anyone finds these settings unusual? I need to spend some more time listening to the results but I never considered setting polarity to 180 degrees. The switch from 0 to 180 immediately filled in a hole in the 35hz range and setting variable phase 45 to 45 degrees lowered a 4-5db bump in the crossover range (60hz). Any comments are appreciated!


Tony

I spent some time this morning eqing my sub based on some reading from an SMS1 I was using. I found setting the polarity to 180 and phase to 45. Both subs are up front (left and right of the center channel). Bass response looks good on paper but I was curious if anyone finds these settings unusual? I need to spend some time listening to the results but I didn't consider setting polarity to 180. The switch from from 0 immeditatley filled in a hole in the 35hz range and lowered and the 45 phase setting lowered a 4-5db bump in the crossover range (60hz). Any comments are appreciated!
Tony

this does not sound totally unusal at all. Mine are both set close to about 40 degrees on the phase to come into line. I did not have to set mine at 180 though, but I know there are others that have.

this is why the JL's have all the settings for them just for this situation. have you tried listening to anything yet to determine the sonic results? They should be excellent, now.

Another reason why I love the JL's over so many other subs.

I spent some time this morning eqing my sub based on some reading from an SMS1 I was using. I found setting the polarity to 180degrees and variable phase to 45 degrees. Both subs are up front (left and right of the center channel). Bass response looks good on paper but I was curious if anyone finds these settings unusual? I need to spend some more time listening to the results but I never considered setting polarity to 180 degrees. The switch from 0 to 180 immediately filled in a hole in the 35hz range and setting variable phase 45 to 45 degrees lowered a 4-5db bump in the crossover range (60hz). Any comments are appreciated!


Tony

My F112 polarity is 180 degrees;).

Furthing the approval, disapproval debate of JL Audio F113 sound quality..

none of us are pro-reviewers or professionals in the audio industry.. (and if you are please stand up and chime in..)

.. if this subwoofer has recieved critical acclaim by the pro's AND postive feedback from the end user AND dealers are carrying them more and more these days.. what adds up is solid bracketing or honing of a smart buy for us, the consumer.

No other Internet Direct sub can compete from start to finish, manufacture to warranty, with JL Audio F113's level of refinement. The sub to beat was the Velodyne DD-18 and JL got it. Now, Paradigm is firing back with the Signature Sub 1, 2, and 25..

Still, size and sound quality is unmatched when it comes to JL Audio's F113.

Not any more Paradigm sub 25 beats out the F113 now in sound quality weather its music or movies. Its louder and goes deeper with ease. I have heard both in the same room hands down sub 25. But also the submersive beats the F113.

I was reading Carl Kennedy's blog, and he has an interesting article about setting the crossover.

http://theprofessionalanswer.com/WordPress/?p=6

He recommends 100-125hz for even floorstanding speakers when using a quality sub like the F113. I have my F113 paired with an Era Design 5 bookshelf system. These speakers are known for having solid bass for a bookshelf design. Would a 100hz crossover be better than the traditional 80hz. My speaker mfg STRONGLY recommends a 50-60hz crossover. Is 100hz too high? Maybe it is just dumb pride, but I have difficulty going higher than a 80hz crossover. Any thoughts would be great.

looks like Carl Kennedy's blog is history

you can't even find it cached on google

But also the submersive beats the F113.

Lol.. you're kidding.. First, do you own the Seaton Sound Submersive?

Given the size and power of the Sub 25, I'll concede that on "interweb" it's got to be a killer sub. But aren't we splitting hairs here?

looks like Carl Kennedy's blog is history

you can't even find it cached on google
Kal Rubinson has a article about how he uses the F113 with his B&W 802s (3 FRONT CHANNEL!) and 803S rear channel.. it's one of the Music in the round articles around 2006-7.

Google it or Stereophile.com

Kal Rubinson has a article about how he uses the F113 with his B&W 802s (3 FRONT CHANNEL!) and 803S rear channel.. it's one of the Music in the round articles around 2006-7.

Google it or Stereophile.com

Hi

I have auditioned the submersive and the sub25 as well as the F113, dont get me wrong the F113 is an awesome subwoofer.

I was looking at that at one point in time until I heard about the submersive than the sub25.

Its something you have to listen to for yourself but there all good subwoofers. i will buying either a sub25 or a submersive this month they were just way better.

Hmm. Given the MSRP for the JL Audio F113 is less than a Paradigm Sub 25 (and you don't even get a Bass EQ, so add $299), The Paradigm must be a great sub.

In this market you either go High or Low or go home. So my question is, Does a $1999 Seaton Sound Submersive sound better that a $3999 Paradigm Sub 25?

The answer should be, "No" , and where did you hear the Seaton Sound Submersive? Was it A/B to the F113? or Sub 25?

While these all are remarkable Subs and all our opinions subjective, Look at all the factors of the F113? Small, doesn't require speical voltage, has built in EQ (ARO), has had more critical acclaim then most Subwoofers out there.

Seaton and the Sub 25 are large. Seaton and the Sub 25, both do not have built in EQ. And Where is the critical acclaim for the Seaton and Sub 25 in the profesional and dealer market? Forums are great but you and I aren't doing this for a living, heck I could say I tested all of the subs in the world, posted phony graphs, etc.. and say which one is better.. to which forums lack credebility.

Will I ever hear all 3 in the same room? I don't know. but I would like to.

Hmm. Given the MSRP for the JL Audio F113 is less than a Paradigm Sub 25 (and you don't even get a Bass EQ, so add $299), The Paradigm must be a great sub.

In this market you either go High or Low or go home. So my question is, Does a $1999 Seaton Sound Submersive sound better that a $3999 Paradigm Sub 25?

The answer should be, "No" , and where did you hear the Seaton Sound Submersive? Was it A/B to the F113? or Sub 25?

While these all are remarkable Subs and all our opinions subjective, Look at all the factors of the F113? Small, doesn't require speical voltage, has built in EQ (ARO), has had more critical acclaim then most Subwoofers out there.

Seaton and the Sub 25 are large. Seaton and the Sub 25, both do not have built in EQ. And Where is the critical acclaim for the Seaton and Sub 25 in the profesional and dealer market? Forums are great but you and I aren't doing this for a living, heck I could say I tested all of the subs in the world, posted phony graphs, etc.. and say which one is better.. to which forums lack credebility.

Will I ever hear all 3 in the same room? I don't know. but I would like to.

let's assume that all 3 subs have a great sound quality in general. My understaing, by reading extensively online, is that the difference between these 3 subs arises only at very high volumes listening - where supposedely the f113 has limitations as compared to the 25 and submersive.
So would it be proper to say that at my usual moderate listning levels like -10 or -15 in an audyssey calibrated system, it should be difficult to hear any difference in extension and headroom, assuming SQ is similar overall in the range 20hz to 80hz between the 3 subs?
I am leaning toward a yes, in theory at least.

let's assume that all 3 subs have a great sound quality in general. My understaing, by reading extensively online, is that the difference between these 3 subs arises only at very high volumes listening - where supposedely the f113 has limitations as compared to the 25 and submersive.
So would it be proper to say that at my usual moderate listning levels like -10 or -15 in an audyssey calibrated system, it should be difficult to hear any difference in extension and headroom, assuming SQ is similar overall in the range 20hz to 80hz between the 3 subs?
I am leaning toward a yes, in theory at least.
I agree. and that goes to my orignal statement of splitting hair amongst all three.

I'm good if at 2 meters I get my average of 110 dBs, 20-100hz.

Hmm. Given the MSRP for the JL Audio F113 is less than a Paradigm Sub 25 (and you don't even get a Bass EQ, so add $299), The Paradigm must be a great sub.



Yes, but the ARO in the F113 is not really an EQ in the traditional sense, it tames ONE peak in the room (largest). It is not a multiband equalizer...so any real EQ is going to do a better job anyway.

Yes, but the ARO in the F113 is not really an EQ in the traditional sense, it tames ONE peak in the room (largest). It is not a multiband equalizer...so any real EQ is going to do a better job anyway.

Absolutely, and that is the taming of the peak that would swing the final sq in the f113's favor when comparing sub to sub,...so it's nice to have it included,...even if it doesn't replace a full fledged eq.

Hmm. Given the MSRP for the JL Audio F113 is less than a Paradigm Sub 25 (and you don't even get a Bass EQ, so add $299), The Paradigm must be a great sub.

In this market you either go High or Low or go home. So my question is, Does a $1999 Seaton Sound Submersive sound better that a $3999 Paradigm Sub 25?

The answer should be, "No" , and where did you hear the Seaton Sound Submersive? Was it A/B to the F113? or Sub 25?

While these all are remarkable Subs and all our opinions subjective, Look at all the factors of the F113? Small, doesn't require speical voltage, has built in EQ (ARO), has had more critical acclaim then most Subwoofers out there.

Seaton and the Sub 25 are large. Seaton and the Sub 25, both do not have built in EQ. And Where is the critical acclaim for the Seaton and Sub 25 in the profesional and dealer market? Forums are great but you and I aren't doing this for a living, heck I could say I tested all of the subs in the world, posted phony graphs, etc.. and say which one is better.. to which forums lack credebility.

Will I ever hear all 3 in the same room? I don't know. but I would like to.

TAS (The Absolute Sound!) Just rated the F113 again it's subwoofer of the year for 2009 as it did for 2008. This, along with the Gotham.

So, where is the Seaton and Paradigm? The main reason TAS rates this sub so high is not just its volume of output, or how low can you go depth, but its speed, accuracy, and overall tueful bass response. It can keep up with planar speakers fair enough to sound excellent when paired with them, which many, many subs can not.

If all you want is 12 hz response and don't give a hoot about the other sonic attributes, enjoy the Paradigm or Seaton. In the real world, there are always going to be trade-off's. The F113's give me endless sonic bliss with the quality as well as quantity of bass down to about 18 hz.

Enjoy.

I currently own an F113, and am considering adding a second.

Does anyone know how many amps these things draw?

I am curious if I can put two of them on a single 20-amp circuit together. I am already going to have to have an additional circuit installed for my new amps, so if I need to add more I am sure it will be less expensive to have it all done at once.

I have scanned through the owners manual to no avail.

What I would like is to have 1 20-amp circuit for the two subs, 1 20-amp circuit for my two new amps (MC-303 and MC-252), and 1-20 amp circuit for my display, pre/pro, cable box, and blu ray player.

Any help would be appreciated!

Hey Sub shoot out over at the Paradigm thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showpost.php?p=17847700&postcount=331).. looking for F113 owners

SHOOT OUT! SHOOT OUT! SHOOT OUT!

Where at in Ontario

Well, I have had the 113s for over a year, I think. I always enjoied them.
I calibrated the system via audyssey pro and the dual subs are set as stereo next to the mains.
They always sounded great to me but I often felt that the room did not pressurize as I would have liked.

Now the twist: because audyssey pro allows the user to adjust the curve, I always boosted the very bottom part of the frequency range from 80 and below culminating to a +3db at 30-20hz. Please note I don't have a sealed room, mine is about 4k cf open to other areas.
Yesterday by curiosity I flattened audyssey's curve and instead I incrasec the ELF filter to +3 on the subs. What a difference it makes, the bass is definately clearer more defined and the room is now actually pressurized easily.
I don't understand why it would make any difference frankly, maybe by increasing portion of audyssey curve may cause compression. Is that possible?!

Not sure why or what difference it "should" make, but... I found similar responses with my two F113's when I set the extreme bottom end to +1dB total between the two from flat. My room pressurized like crazy. My room does not respond well to extreme low frequencies due to its small'ish size overall and open on one end down stairs. So, when I set it up slightly - holy cow! The room just not only would shake, but the feeling of the walls pushing outward was really something. You could feel the air being pushed. Now, that is joy.

TAS (The Absolute Sound!) Just rated the F113 again it's subwoofer of the year for 2009 as it did for 2008. This, along with the Gotham.

So, where is the Seaton and Paradigm? The main reason TAS rates this sub so high is not just its volume of output, or how low can you go depth, but its speed, accuracy, and overall tueful bass response. It can keep up with planar speakers fair enough to sound excellent when paired with them, which many, many subs can not.

If all you want is 12 hz response and don't give a hoot about the other sonic attributes, enjoy the Paradigm or Seaton. In the real world, there are always going to be trade-off's. The F113's give me endless sonic bliss with the quality as well as quantity of bass down to about 18 hz.

Enjoy.

"Speed" ???

Yes they are fast. I have owned several different subs. The last one was a REL Stentor III and I can say without a doubt the JL Audio subs always put a smile on my face. The Stentor was great for 2 channel 90% of the time but could not dig as deep with the same authority that the JL produces. Just as "musical" as the REL but with more output. That and the fact the REL was a 10" driver the JL has a 13.5" driver/motor.:rolleyes:

"Speed" ???


+1

Some really good info about such a thought process right here...
http://www.audiopulse.com/know-how/subwoofer-driver-guide/myths-about-subwoofers/

I love that page, how about you Kyle... :) Especially #3 hey...

As well as this
http://www.audiopulse.com/know-how/subwoofer-driver-guide/faq/

Warpdrv,

It's obvious that you don't have a clue what's being discussed here...Leave it to the people who do.:p

Sometimes with the best subs the bass is so fast it just gets up and leaves the room altogether.

Well, I have had the 113s for over a year, I think. I always enjoied them.
I calibrated the system via audyssey pro and the dual subs are set as stereo next to the mains.
They always sounded great to me but I often felt that the room did not pressurize as I would have liked.

Now the twist: because audyssey pro allows the user to adjust the curve, I always boosted the very bottom part of the frequency range from 80 and below culminating to a +3db at 30-20hz. Please note I don't have a sealed room, mine is about 4k cf open to other areas.
Yesterday by curiosity I flattened audyssey's curve and instead I incrasec the ELF filter to +3 on the subs. What a difference it makes, the bass is definately clearer more defined and the room is now actually pressurized easily.
I don't understand why it would make any difference frankly, maybe by increasing portion of audyssey curve may cause compression. Is that possible?!
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=736243&page=164
The +3 setting of the ELF Trim Control is basically a "House Curve" shaped volume control:

http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/7314/elf.jpg

Most people prefer the sound of a "house curve". I use something similar in my current system:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=162794&stc=1&d=1262753042
Craig

They are just too fast for their own good. ;)

I am told the new version features a Supplemental Restraint System.:p

+1

Some really good info about such a thought process right here...
http://www.audiopulse.com/know-how/subwoofer-driver-guide/myths-about-subwoofers/

I love that page, how about you Kyle... :) Especially #3 hey...

As well as this
http://www.audiopulse.com/know-how/subwoofer-driver-guide/faq/

Dan Wiggins also has a eloquently written paper on that subject somewhere floating around.


i always say, if you're subwoofer is not "fast" enough, turn up the volume! technically you will have higher accelerations and higher maximum velocities... we also like to call this SPL, lol.

They are just too fast for their own good. ;)

I am told the new version features a Supplemental Restraint System.:p

lol @ your comment and lol @ myself because thats the first time i realized what SRS stood for. hahah i'm a nub.

so I am new to JL Audio subs and recently got a Fathom 110 for a killer price. I was running dual Mirage S12 subs so figured this was a good upgrade. But after reading so much about the 113 and how much more dominant it is, I am wondering if I should sell the 110 and get a 113.

I am sure you folks would need more info to help so fire away. This is my first trip into higher end subs and a noob

so I am new to JL Audio subs and recently got a Fathom 110 for a killer price. I was running dual Mirage S12 subs so figured this was a good upgrade. But after reading so much about the 113 and how much more dominant it is, I am wondering if I should sell the 110 and get a 113.



Don't forget about the F112.

that as well but it seems to be much harder to find a 112 at a decent price than a 113. I missed one on audiogon that was in pristine condition for $1750

I could have killed myself

This may be old news for some, but in Googling around I came across this set of pictures of JL Audio's factory during an AVS tour in 2007....lot of car stuff being build, but some Gothams's as well, including shots showing the internal bracing...

http://www.audiojunkies.com/blog/199/jl-audio-facility-tour-pictures

Warpdrv,

It's obvious that you don't have a clue what's being discussed here...Leave it to the people who do.:p

Sometimes with the best subs the bass is so fast it just gets up and leaves the room altogether.

Well then :rolleyes:... Guess I better keep my comments to myself and put my head back in the sand where it belongs !!! :D

My F112 is much faster then my 18" LMS's...

lol @ your comment and lol @ myself because thats the first time i realized what SRS stood for. hahah i'm a nub.

Glad I could provide some amusement Kyle!:D

I just hope they use a two stage system or there may be a lot of owners with bag burns.:p

"Speed" ???


Kyle - transient speed or in other words the transient response of the driver. How quickly it starts and stops in relation to an electrical input signal. The JL's are superbly "fast" in that area. Take, for example, a very well recorded drum set, say a Sheffield or Reference Recording recording, just as an example. On Several of my Sheffield recordings, the kick drum has an incredibly fast transient, as it would in real life. Play this recording at high volume and be prepared for a shock how incredibly quick the JL's will respond to a recording such as this, but not only hit with the initial "thwack" of the leading transiet edge, but also stop just as quickly. This really shows up when there are rapid hits from the kick drum. Most subs just flop over this, but not the JL.

This is an example of why they are in high end circles rated so highly.

Warpdrv,

It's obvious that you don't have a clue what's being discussed here...Leave it to the people who do.:p

Sometimes with the best subs the bass is so fast it just gets up and leaves the room altogether.

OK boys, lets all play nice here in the playground. Everyone has an opinon and position and is entitled to it.

Besides, offering differing opinions adds spice to a discussion. Nobody likes bland, do they?

Kyle - transient speed or in other words the transient response of the driver. How quickly it starts and stops in relation to an electrical input signal. The JL's are superbly "fast" in that area. Take, for example, a very well recorded drum set, say a Sheffield or Reference Recording recording, just as an example. On Several of my Sheffield recordings, the kick drum has an incredibly fast transient, as it would in real life. Play this recording at high volume and be prepared for a shock how incredibly quick the JL's will respond to a recording such as this, but not only hit with the initial "thwack" of the leading transiet edge, but also stop just as quickly. This really shows up when there are rapid hits from the kick drum. Most subs just flop over this, but not the JL.

This is an example of why they are in high end circles rated so highly.

I think your barking up the wrong tree here, Kyle knows more about what goes into a subwoofer driver then likely 99% of the people here....

He is part of the TC-Sounds/Audiopulse team, though I think he doesn't point that out in his profile (just his picture). TC-Sounds/Audiopulse makes drivers that are pretty much the best measured and performing drivers on the planet... Allow me to point you in the right direction of said driver...
The LMS-Ultra http://www.audiopulse.com/products/subwoofer-drivers/lms-ultra


Ricci's post was a joke between him and I, we are good friends here... :)

Well then :rolleyes:... Guess I better keep my comments to myself and put my head back in the sand where it belongs !!! :D

My F112 is much faster then my 18" LMS's...

Well obviously, they're smaller. :p

Well obviously, they're smaller. :p

:D:p

I think your barking up the wrong tree here, Kyle knows more about what goes into a subwoofer driver then likely 99% of the people here....

He is part of the TC-Sounds team, though I think he doesn't point that out in his profile (just his picture). TC-Sounds makes drivers that are pretty much the best measured and performing drivers on the planet... Allow me to point you in the right direction of said driver...
The LMS-Ultra http://www.audiopulse.com/products/subwoofer-drivers/lms-ultra


Ricci's post was a joke between him and I, we are good friends here... :)

You know, when I read his post I thought to myself "Oh boy, here we go!" LOL.

OK boys, lets all play nice here in the playground. Everyone has an opinon and position and is entitled to it.

Besides, offering differing opinions adds spice to a discussion. Nobody likes bland, do they?

I dunno, some people seem like to him. :p;)

You know, when I read his post I thought to myself "Oh boy, here we go!" LOL.


Right, Kyle likes to stir things up, much like Kal Rubinson and his nice short little persnickety answers...

Oh and lets not forget Paul Scarpelli... gotta love his small interjections - "Sad Sad lonely man" is one of my favorites :)

Kyle - transient speed or in other words the transient response of the driver. How quickly it starts and stops in relation to an electrical input signal. The JL's are superbly "fast" in that area. Take, for example, a very well recorded drum set, say a Sheffield or Reference Recording recording, just as an example. On Several of my Sheffield recordings, the kick drum has an incredibly fast transient, as it would in real life. Play this recording at high volume and be prepared for a shock how incredibly quick the JL's will respond to a recording such as this, but not only hit with the initial "thwack" of the leading transiet edge, but also stop just as quickly. This really shows up when there are rapid hits from the kick drum. Most subs just flop over this, but not the JL.

This is an example of why they are in high end circles rated so highly.
Ed Mullen has a response to this issue that puts it in perspective:

"If a subwoofer can reproduce a frequency, it is, by definition "fast enough."

Craig

PS. In case you don't know who Ed Mullen is, he is a former subwoofer reviewer for Secrets, and currently works for SVS in Product Developement and Technical Support.

Craig, I gotta disagree with you on Ed's comment you stated, but hey - my opinion. I frequency is a frequency is a frequency is not the answer or all speakers would sound the same. I've heard my share of flappers that can "technically" reproduce a 20 hz signal but sounded like $-hit.

I think Craig left a couple things out, assuming you already knew (I am guessing). There are other factors involved within a specific frequency other than the signal alone. Spectral decay, harmonics etc.. These things also play a role in the signal which account for the variances in what we hear. Don't forget the most important one... THE ROOM.

This may be old news for some, but in Googling around I came across this set of pictures of JL Audio's factory during an AVS tour in 2007....lot of car stuff being build, but some Gothams's as well, including shots showing the internal bracing...

http://www.audiojunkies.com/blog/199/jl-audio-facility-tour-pictures

MAN, that Gotham!!! Thank God I don't have the room for 'em;).

Ricci's post was a joke between him and I, we are good friends here... :)

We ain't friends... Hell we ain't even acquaintances. Not since you burned me on that Asian massage parlor investment deal. You dig sport? :cool:

Just messin with yah man. How's that door anyway?:D

We ain't friends... Hell we ain't even acquaintances. Not since you burned me on that Asian massage parlor investment deal. You dig sport? :cool:

No "Happy Ending" for you? :D

Kyle - transient speed or in other words the transient response of the driver. How quickly it starts and stops in relation to an electrical input signal. The JL's are superbly "fast" in that area. Take, for example, a very well recorded drum set, say a Sheffield or Reference Recording recording, just as an example. On Several of my Sheffield recordings, the kick drum has an incredibly fast transient, as it would in real life. Play this recording at high volume and be prepared for a shock how incredibly quick the JL's will respond to a recording such as this, but not only hit with the initial "thwack" of the leading transiet edge, but also stop just as quickly. This really shows up when there are rapid hits from the kick drum. Most subs just flop over this, but not the JL.

This is an example of why they are in high end circles rated so highly.

Just an FYI, Kyle is on the team that produced the arguably the best drivers in the world and is among the most knowledgable members here in every regard.

He knows all about the mythical fast qualities and other subwoofer folklore.

Craig, I gotta disagree with you on Ed's comment you stated, but hey - my opinion. I frequency is a frequency is a frequency is not the answer or all speakers would sound the same. I've heard my share of flappers that can "technically" reproduce a 20 hz signal but sounded like $-hit.
"Frequency", as it relates to sound, is defined as wave cycles over time. Therefore, if a subwoofer is capable of moving at, say, 30 cycles per second, that's as "fast" as it has to move... it has to move in and out exactly 30 times in one second. If you want it to be "faster", it would need to be playing a higher "frequency", say, 31 cycles per second. But 31 cycles per second has a different "pitch" than 30.

Bottom line, no subwoofer can reproduce 30 Hz "faster" than any other subwoofer. If one could, it would be playing a different note. IOW, JL Audio can't engineer a subwoofer to reproduce 30 Hz "faster" than 30 Hz. That's all I, or anyone else is saying.

Having said that, obviously, there is a lot more to "sound quality" than whether a given driver in a given box can reproduce a specific frequency. However, the description of a subwoofer in terms of speed, or "being fast", is an ill-defined and inappropriate descriptor. It is one of those totally subjective "audiophile" descriptors used by the snake oil guys to describe something that can't be measured.

Measurements are all a speaker/subwoofer engineer/designer has at his disposal. I am paraphrasing Kyle because I can't find the exact quote, but it goes something like this:

"There is no "magic". Engineering is all there is. No subwoofer or speaker can go beyond the engineering."

Craig

"Frequency", as it relates to sound, is defined as wave cycles over time. Therefore, if a subwoofer is capable of moving at, say, 30 cycles per second, that's as "fast" as it has to move... it has to move in and out exactly 30 times in one second. If you want it to be "faster", it would need to be playing a higher "frequency", say, 31 cycles per second. But 31 cycles per second has a different "pitch" than 30.

Bottom line, no subwoofer can reproduce 30 Hz "faster" than any other subwoofer. If one could, it would be playing a different note. IOW, JL Audio can't engineer a subwoofer to reproduce 30 Hz "faster" than 30 Hz. That's all I, or anyone else is saying.

Having said that, obviously, there is a lot more to "sound quality" than whether a given driver in a given box can reproduce a specific frequency. However, the description of a subwoofer in terms of speed, or "being fast", is an ill-defined and inappropriate descriptor. It is one of those totally subjective "audiophile" descriptors used by the snake oil guys to describe something that can't be measured.

Measurements are all a speaker/subwoofer engineer/designer has at his disposal. I am paraphrasing Kyle because I can't find the exact quote, but it goes something like this:



Craig


That is why I made the post above Craig, as Oddeofile took your comment as a generalization.

I currently own an F113, and am considering adding a second.

Does anyone know how many amps these things draw?

I am curious if I can put two of them on a single 20-amp circuit together. I am already going to have to have an additional circuit installed for my new amps, so if I need to add more I am sure it will be less expensive to have it all done at once.

I have scanned through the owners manual to no avail.

What I would like is to have 1 20-amp circuit for the two subs, 1 20-amp circuit for my two new amps (MC-303 and MC-252), and 1-20 amp circuit for my display, pre/pro, cable box, and blu ray player.

Any help would be appreciated!

Not sure how many amps the subs draw but 1 20amp circuit for 2 F113s should be fine. I have an Equitech 7.5Q balanced transformer which has 4 20amp circuits. I have 2 F113s on each of 2 of the circuits of the Equitech. They haven't ever tripped the breaker and I've had things cooking at reference level and above with no issues. So get the 20amp circuit for them and enjoy!

Not sure how many amps the subs draw but 1 20amp circuit for 2 F113s should be fine. I have an Equitech 7.5Q balanced transformer which has 4 20amp circuits. I have 2 F113s on each of 2 of the circuits of the Equitech. They haven't ever tripped the breaker and I've had things cooking at reference level and above with no issues. So get the 20amp circuit for them and enjoy!

I would have to disagree with you there:

(1 - 20 amp outlet) = 20 amps x 120 volts = 2,400 watts (Ohm's law).

The F113 has a 2,500 watt amp, right?

I use 6 separate 20 amp circuits for my equipment: (2) 20 amp circuits - 1 for each Gotham G213, (1) 20 amp circuit for my Cinenove Grande 7 amp, (1) 20 amp circuit for my Denon AVR-5308, and the (2) remaining 20 amp circuits for everything else.

Is this over kill? Maybe.

Do I ever worry about having insufficient power to my equipment? Never.

:D

HSU is faster because it has turbo.

I would have to disagree with you there:

(1 - 20 amp outlet) = 20 amps x 120 volts = 2,400 watts (Ohm's law).

The F113 has a 2,500 watt amp, right?

I use 6 separate 20 amp circuits for my equipment: (2) 20 amp circuits - 1 for each Gotham G213, (1) 20 amp circuit for my Cinenove Grande 7 amp, (1) 20 amp circuit for my Denon AVR-5308, and the (2) remaining 20 amp circuits for everything else.

Is this over kill? Maybe.

Do I ever worry about having insufficient power to my equipment? Never.

:D

The math is accurate. It's possible that the F113s don't draw their maximum rated amperage at all but their highest volume settings. Short-term peaks can be handled by capacitors without blowing breakers. I've seen this effect in several different examples, from Class-A Krell monoblocks to F113s to treadmill motors.

So, although the math is correct, real-world current draw may be sufficiently less and allow two subs on one circuit. It sure seems that way, since The Bogg's system isn't shutting down constantly.

Lee

I am curious to know whether using a higher crossover point would be detrimental to the sub's sound quality, example 100hz as opposed to 60hz. Any thoughts?

I would have to disagree with you there:

(1 - 20 amp outlet) = 20 amps x 120 volts = 2,400 watts (Ohm's law).

The F113 has a 2,500 watt amp, right?



You are correct, but of course that is absolute maximum output. 99% of the time you will be using less than 1000w.
And even a modern 20 amp circuit can take short bursts of much more that their rating.

Having said all that, I agree with you. I would rather have two much power and peace of mind.

If you aren't tripping the breaker, you have enough power...;)

If you aren't tripping the breaker, you have enough power...;)

In my case, each Gotham G213 has a 3,800 watt amp and the Cinenova Grande 7 is capable of delivering 1 kilowatt of power to all seven channels simultaneously, so I thought it was prudent to drop (6) 20 amp circuits for these and future needs since the wall where the outlets were going was new construction.

Besides, I'm a firm believer in overkill (two Gothams).

:cool:

I am curious to know whether using a higher crossover point would be detrimental to the sub's sound quality, example 100hz as opposed to 60hz. Any thoughts?
It's probably more important to know if it will hurt or help the *system* sound quality. The F113 can certainly handle frequencies up to 100 Hz without any problem. The question is; is the sub the better transducer of the 60 to 100 Hz content than the speakers? Most often the answer is yes, especially if the speakers are comprised of 6.5" or smaller drivers, even multiples of them. The JL's sound quality will almost always be better than those smaller drivers in this range.

In addition, relieving those smaller drivers of the excursion required to produce those lower frequencies will allow them to reproduce the upper bass and mids much more cleanly. Finally, it relieves the amps of the strain of trying to drive those speakers at the lower frequencies. This frees up headroom and allows to amps to provide more clean power for the upper bass and mids.

However, 100 Hz is the point where sounds start to become localizable. If the sub is placed up front, between the mains, this should be an insignificant issue. But, if the sub is placed anywhere but in the front of the soundstage, you may start to hear sounds originating from it. This can be distracting. Lowering the crossover to 80 Hz should alleviate this problem.

Play around with different crossovers. It doesn't cost anything but your time, and you can always reset the crossovers to their original points. :)

Craig

Another method to add to Craigs very knowledgable and helpful post is that you can also maintain those higher level crossovers (even up to 160hz) by having enough subs surrounding you to prevent them from becoming localizable. But meticulous care should be used to EQ, cross, delay as well as phase each driver properly to integrate them to the LP...

Also some drivers/subs perform better even up to very high hz regions... depends on the driver...

That's interesting, I did try 100hz and surprisingly the f113s sound a bit heavy up there.
I understand, there are many factors to take into account, mainly the acoustics and positioning, etc
i would have thought that it would have been beneficial to the sub by relieveing it from the upper frequencies. But I am barely learning...

That's interesting, I did try 100hz and surprisingly the f113s sound a bit heavy up there.
I understand, there are many factors to take into account, mainly the acoustics and positioning, etc
i would have thought that it would have been beneficial to the sub by relieveing it from the upper frequencies. But I am barely learning...
Your instincts are correct, but it's a matter of whether relieving the sub of the mid/upper bass is better than relieving the speakers of the mid/upper bass. IME, off-loading those frequencies to a subwoofer with the SQ of the F113 will virtually always be a better decision than sending them to the speakers.

Craig

Edit: If the F113's sounded "heavy" up there, did you re-calibrate after you changed the crossover?

sorry to post this again, any comments?

so I am new to JL Audio subs and recently got a Fathom 110 for a killer price. I was running dual Mirage S12 subs so figured this was a good upgrade. But after reading so much about the 113 and how much more dominant it is, I am wondering if I should sell the 110 and get a 113.

I am sure you folks would need more info to help so fire away. This is my first trip into higher end subs and a noob

In my case, each Gotham G213 has a 3,800 watt amp and the Cinenova Grande 7 is capable of delivering 1 kilowatt of power to all seven channels simultaneously, so I thought it was prudent to drop (6) 20 amp circuits for these and future needs since the wall where the outlets were going was new construction.

Besides, I'm a firm believer in overkill (two Gothams).

:cool:

I hear you, and that's understandable...

I'll give you a quick look at my own personal setup. I'm running dual Paradigm Sub 12's(1700 watts each sustained), an Anthem A5(180wx5), a 300w Buttkicker amp, plus all my other gear on one single 120v line with 15 amp circuit. I have yet to encounter a single issue with this configuration, not even dimming lights during the most demanding content. And, I prefer to listen at near reference volumes most of the time. I've been toying with the idea of adding another dedicated line for just the subs, but would I really gain anything? Clearly I'm not short on power. Hmmm...

Gives you an idea of how little power these devices actually demand under semi-normal listening conditions. Or, maybe I'm just lucky.:D

My apologies for the brief derail...

Your instincts are correct, but it's a matter of whether relieving the sub of the mid/upper bass is better than relieving the speakers of the mid/upper bass. IME, off-loading those frequencies to a subwoofer with the SQ of the F113 will virtually always be a better decision than sending them to the speakers.

Craig

Edit: If the F113's sounded "heavy" up there, did you re-calibrate after you changed the crossover?

no, I did not. Strange enough, audysey pro's drop down crossover options for the mains are only large, 40, 60 and 80 hz.

Thanks a lot Craig.

I would have to disagree with you there:

(1 - 20 amp outlet) = 20 amps x 120 volts = 2,400 watts (Ohm's law).

The F113 has a 2,500 watt amp, right?

I use 6 separate 20 amp circuits for my equipment: (2) 20 amp circuits - 1 for each Gotham G213, (1) 20 amp circuit for my Cinenove Grande 7 amp, (1) 20 amp circuit for my Denon AVR-5308, and the (2) remaining 20 amp circuits for everything else.

Is this over kill? Maybe.

Do I ever worry about having insufficient power to my equipment? Never.

:D

Disagree if you like but the proof is in the pudding. Talk to JL and they'll admit that the 2500watts is not exactly the same as say a 2500watt rms from 20-20000 type of rating. It's a little bit of marketing hype. Under "certain" circumstances the amp might produce 2500 watts for a fraction of a second into a low impedance at a certain frequency. If the breaker isn't tripping with WOTW at reference with 2 subs on the circuit then there is NO issue.

fyi, the 120volt rating of the circuit is rms. The peak voltage is something like 170-180volts so you can get significantly higher outputs from a 20 volt circuit than you have listed (for short-term needs).

I'm all about overkill too. The speakers in my theatre could power a room double the size with ease. And it's a decent sized room. And my 4 F113s will slaughter your gothams with 10000watts vs your puny 7600. Just joking around of course in case it wasn't obvious. :p

Hey there!

I was wondering if anyone knows of a decent hardware and/or software package that one can use to analyze the audio of an HT room? :) Would you recoommend the SMS-1 system? or maybe the REW software for the laptop? I just want to see what nulls may exist using F113 in its current location and to help optimize placement.

Any help would be appreciated!

I would just get hold of an Audyssey Sub EQ and most or pretty much all your issues will be gone..

The issues with Parametric EQ's such as the SMS-1 is you can only EQ in the Frequency Domain and are mostly Low resolution filters (IIR filter based)...

where as the Audyssey Sub EQ offers high resolution filters, EQ's in the Frequency Domain and Time Domain thus FIR fillters and ALFC technology, can EQ 2 subs independently, up to 32 mic positions and can be intergrated vurtualy into any System...

For Room Modal analizing software I use Acoustisofts R plus D with calibrated Mic
mainly for the Optimisation of Speaker placment, Optimization of Electronic Xovers, Analizing underlying room acoustic issues, Optimization of Acoustic treatment's & placment...

Hope this helps,
Cheers...

Hey there!

I was wondering if anyone knows of a decent hardware and/or software package that one can use to analyze the audio of an HT room? :) Would you recoommend the SMS-1 system? or maybe the REW software for the laptop? I just want to see what nulls may exist using F113 in its current location and to help optimize placement.

Any help would be appreciated!

REW is free, all you need is a usb sound card for your laptop and a mic. I use the Radio shack spl meter as the mic into a Tascam US-144 external sound card and it's quite a good, cheap way at assessing your room's frequency response and other parameters.

So no new showing at the CES 10 for JL?


DJoel

Does anyone put their fathoms on a stand like a foot or two tall? Is it worth the hassle?
I discovered that not even audyssey can fix the suckout in the 70hz.

REW is free, all you need is a usb sound card for your laptop and a mic. I use the Radio shack spl meter as the mic into a Tascam US-144 external sound card and it's quite a good, cheap way at assessing your room's frequency response and other parameters.

How do you connect the Shack sound meter to your computer? I have USBs and then I see a input for a mic into my laptop simular to that of headphones. Does radio Shack sell some sort of cable?

Thanks!

How do you connect the Shack sound meter to your computer? I have USBs and then I see a input for a mic into my laptop simular to that of headphones. Does radio Shack sell some sort of cable?

Thanks!

You need something like the Tascam USB external soundcard. EMU makes an alternative as does Creative. The Tascam unit is under 200bucks.

How do you connect the Shack sound meter to your computer? I have USBs and then I see a input for a mic into my laptop simular to that of headphones. Does radio Shack sell some sort of cable?

Thanks!

The RS SPL has an RCA jack that you use for connection, just load up the correction RS.cal file for it, and follow the instructions in REW for setup.

So no new showing at the CES 10 for JL?


DJoel

JLA did not display at CEDIA [Sept. 2009] or CES [this past weekend].

Look for them at both events next year [CEDIA - Sept. 2010 and CES - 2011]

JLA did not display at CEDIA [Sept. 2009] or CES [this past weekend].

Look for them at both events next year [CEDIA - Sept. 2010 and CES - 2011]


That's awesome news, I think!


Djoel

well I tried real hard to get a reply and so help but no go. Soooo I sold my 110 and got a 113 that arrives Friday. Sometimes you gotta do it on your own :)

Does anyone put their fathoms on a stand like a foot or two tall? Is it worth the hassle?
I discovered that not even audyssey can fix the suckout in the 70hz.

I've been wondering the same thing. Anyone ever try this?

I've been wondering the same thing. Anyone ever try this?


I thought about trying it but it serves me with no advantage in my room by raising the subs off of the floor. I do have my Wilson Watch center on a custom made raised Sound Anchors stand! I think he's made a couple of subwoofer stands for JL customers already. Helps decouple the sub from the floor in some installations.

Never done it but you can always put some heavy rubber feet on a 18-22" square of lower end granite.

Should be pretty cheap if you can find some scraps at a counter top shop.

I know the sub-dude is pretty inexpensive and will provide isolation. What I'm more interested in is lifting the sub a foot or so above the floor. I would expect similar smoothing effects as when pulling the sub away from the walls, but in the 3rd dimension. Anyone tried this?

I know the sub-dude is pretty inexpensive and will provide isolation. What I'm more interested in is lifting the sub a foot or so above the floor. I would expect similar smoothing effects as when pulling the sub away from the walls, but in the 3rd dimension. Anyone tried this?

Have you first tried relocating your sub,...ie putting the sub where you sit and taking mic measurements in other locations to see if it cures the suckout? And is the suckout sub only or is it with mains combined,...do you have a graph or display image to show us?

I have not but according to Barry @ Sound Doctor who is a JL dealer and is also, or was, JL's tech consultant, lifting the JL's off the floor to a higher level provides more gut kick since they will be closer to your gut level. Beyond that, I do not know what positive or negative effects you might encounter.

Go to Lowes get 2 x 2x12x8 and a 4x8 sheet of 3/4 plywood and build you some down and dirty sub risers and let us all know what happened!

I have not but according to Barry @ Sound Doctor who is a JL dealer and is also, or was, JL's tech consultant, lifting the JL's off the floor to a higher level provides more gut kick since they will be closer to your gut level. Beyond that, I do not know what positive or negative effects you might encounter.
I think if you raise it off the floor by stacking it on top of another Ff113, that REALLY provides more gut kick! :D

j/k--I'm sure that would cause some physics problem that I can't understand. Just struck me as funny.

I have not but according to Barry @ Sound Doctor who is a JL dealer and is also, or was, JL's tech consultant, lifting the JL's off the floor to a higher level provides more gut kick since they will be closer to your gut level. Beyond that, I do not know what positive or negative effects you might encounter.
I don't know that raising the sub to "gut level" will produce "gut wrenching" bass... never heard *that* one before. And, if you think about the lengths of the waves at these frequencies, (80 Hz has a wavelength of 14.1 ft., 20 Hz has a wavelength of 56.5 ft.), raising the sub 2 ft. won't appreciably change where the wave hits you. It could change the floor bounce, which will affect the perceived sound. Depending on the frequency, you could change the position of a peak or a null, due to a change in the constructive/destructive interaction of the initial wave and the bounced wave. That could help, (or hurt), with your 70 Hz suckout, but it wouldn't be because the sub is located closer to your "gut level".

Without spending too much, you could try it out. Get a good, sturdy ottoman and set the sub on it. If the sound improves, you have your answer. :)

Craig

Have to agree with Craig and I'll add again that proper sub setup is the key starting point,...atleast reduce the suck out as much as possible by proper positioning before you try lifting it. Have you tried REW?

my 113 arrived last night... WHAT A BEAST

any suggestions for initial setup? I am running three sunfire speakers for left, center and right. Should I set the crossover to 80hz as per thx?

thanks for the newbie tips

my 113 arrived last night... WHAT A BEAST

any suggestions for initial setup? I am running three sunfire speakers for left, center and right. Should I set the crossover to 80hz as per thx?

thanks for the newbie tips

You can try an 80hz xover, but in the end, choose what sounds best to your ears.

Hello and Good day!

I am the proud owner of the f113 and I really love what this sub can do with my system. I have been trying to tweak the integration of the sub into my room and have a few questions. But first, let me tell you that I am using the f133 with Monitor Audio Gold speakers (7 of them) and a Lexicon Pre-amp and Byrston amps. My HT set-up is in a large open room that has a staircase behind the HT cabinets, and open on 2 of the side areas. The room is not the best, but it will have to do :)

When I received the sub, I placed it where it made the most sense from a room and WAF perspective, in the right corner behind the right front speaker. I used the internal calibration system and then used the Lexicon's own EQ. The Lex Eq really helps tame this "live" room. I tested the system using many Blu-ray and DVDs and the sub seems to be integrated fairly decently, but I am a tweaker.

I ran a Bass mgt freq sweep test from the DVE Calibration DVD and expereinced the following issues. First off the sub does not kick in until 25Hz which is no big deal for me, but then the entire house shakes for about 5 sec as the sweep goes from 24Hz to about 33Hz. I think I make have hit the house's resonant frequency somewhere in there..LOL and after that the sound smooths out with some minor fades around 46Hz-50Hz.

My big issue is that I want to tame the initial vibration a bit without losing the impact. I moved the sub around to differing locations along the front portions of the HT since that is my limitation from a room perspective and that really did not help too much. I reduced the ELF down to -3Hz to try to tame the initial vibration and that seemed to help a bit, but I lose some impact.

Any suggestions how how to smooth out the bass at the lower frequencies without killing the impact? Perhaps I have missed something in my set-up? I am looking for tight clean bass that gives a solid punch without shaking the house down. That is why I bought this sub as oposed to others and want to ensure i have optimized it best I can.

Any help or suggestions would be great!

Thanks!

Did you listen to the sub with just the ARO activated taking the Lexicon out of the equation? Your sub is crossed over at what freq? The JL allows you to go a bit higher on the crossover point. Did you listen to the sub with just the Lexicon's filters engaged? Is there a difference between the two? You may need to use just one in your initial setup? Have you moved the sub out further in the room and away from the boundries to listen for a change?


You mentioned your room as "live"? It's bright sounding? That's what a live room usually is? Bass shouldn't be affected that much? Is your room "live" or just filled with one or two resonant frequencies that bugs you? The ARO should have eliminated that! These subs will shake a room with the proper content. Are you saying there's too much bass? Never heard that one before. It sounds like the WAF may have to be renegotiated to properly integrate it in your room? Good luck with that aspect of control in your life! :D

I think if you raise it off the floor by stacking it on top of another Ff113, that REALLY provides more gut kick! :D

j/k--I'm sure that would cause some physics problem that I can't understand. Just struck me as funny.

But then that would be a Gotham G213 wouldn't it? I have two Gotham G213 subs in my room and there is plenty of "gut kick".
:D

Hi there! I did some experimentation and can answer most of your questions.

Did you listen to the sub with just the ARO activated taking the Lexicon out of the equation?

I listened to the Sub with a number of combinations between the Lex EQ being active and the f113 ARO. In the end, the bass sounded tighter without the use of the ARO and only the use of the Lex EQ.

Your sub is crossed over at what freq?

My speakers and sub are crossed over at 80Hz.

Did you listen to the sub with just the Lexicon's filters engaged?
Is there a difference between the two? You may need to use just one in your initial setup?

I am not able to independantly turn off the Lex Sub EQ from all the other speakers. I did turn off the Lex Eq and sample some DVDs but it did not help and besides, I need the Lex EQ on to help with my other speakers.

Have you moved the sub out further in the room and away from the boundries to listen for a change?

I moved the sub around best I could within the confinds of the from portion of the listening room and it seemed that the orgininal spot where I placed the sub was the best for overall performance.

You mentioned your room as "live"? It's bright sounding? That's what a live room usually is? Bass shouldn't be affected that much?

My room is a rather large great room about 23ft x 23ft (with a 25ft ceiling) and is open on 2 sides, one of which is an opening to our kitchen. There just is a lot of wall space that is bare and in the future I will try to get some panels that could help tame the room a bit.

Is your room "live" or just filled with one or two resonant frequencies that bugs you?

The room is Live and I have not done a complete analysis, but you can tell when playing music or a DVD, the room has a little bit of resonant echoing.

The ARO should have eliminated that! These subs will shake a room with the proper content. Are you saying there's too much bass?

No, I meant to say that I am looking for clean tight bass with impact. It does not have to be gut wrenching bass that rattles your teeth, but more like a blow to the gut :)

It sounds like the WAF may have to be renegotiated to properly integrate it in your room? Good luck with that aspect of control in your life! :D

Ahh yes, I have exceeded the WAF already even getting the f113 and I know getting another f133 would be optimum for any bass issues I may have. However, that will be a lonnnng time from now :)

I just need to stop thinking and tweaking and enjoy :) But alas, I always will try to squeeze more out of what I have :)

You mentioned your room as "live"? It's bright sounding? That's what a live room usually is? Bass shouldn't be affected that much?

My room is a rather large great room about 23ft x 23ft (with a 25ft ceiling) and is open on 2 sides, one of which is an opening to our kitchen. There just is a lot of wall space that is bare and in the future I will try to get some panels that could help tame the room a bit.

Is your room "live" or just filled with one or two resonant frequencies that bugs you?

The room is Live and I have not done a complete analysis, but you can tell when playing music or a DVD, the room has a little bit of resonant echoing.


Well now...

Square rooms are tough but toss in those 25' ceilings no wonder you got some issues there. Get yourself about 50' of RG6, some RCA twist on ends and an RCA-RCA coupler [Radio Shack can hook you up, heck I'd bet the sales guy, if a geeky dude, would put the ends on] as well as a heavy extension cord [Home Depot] and just move the thing from wall to wall and try to find the spot with least echo. Try to leave ARO and eq settings in the SSP off if you can bypass them for testing. Once you find the "spot" then run ARO first and LEXI eq last.

Your room is tough bro!

Oh yeah add a second sub and tell the little woman that you are faithfull, loving husband, great father, no addictions and this is the price you pay for a perfect mate! ;)

[I][B]
Oh yeah add a second sub and tell the little woman that you are faithfull, loving husband, great father, no addictions and this is the price you pay for a perfect mate! ;)



Easier said than done my friend! :) If someone wants to donate me a f113 for use for the next 20 years, I feel sure I could talk my wife into placing it in the great room along with my other f113 :)

More bass at no cost!

That is what a perfect mate would do! :)

LOL....if you need two of these subs to make up for your deficit, then perhaps you have the wrong sub? No need to resell the wife, just resell the F113?

LOL....if you need two of these subs to make up for your deficit, then perhaps you have the wrong sub? No need to resell the wife, just resell the F113?

This is getting to the point where it is just ridiculous.

JL pulled your authorization, just give it up already.

Also, the word you are looking for is "dual", meaning more than one. Duel means to battle, or engage in combat.

[I][B]

Well now...

Square rooms are tough but toss in those 25' ceilings no wonder you got some issues there. Get yourself about 50' of RG6, some RCA twist on ends and an RCA-RCA coupler [Radio Shack can hook you up, heck I'd bet the sales guy, if a geeky dude, would put the ends on] as well as a heavy extension cord [Home Depot] and just move the thing from wall to wall and try to find the spot with least echo. Try to leave ARO and eq settings in the SSP off if you can bypass them for testing. Once you find the "spot" then run ARO first and LEXI eq last.


No need to move the sub but once. Place the sub where you sit and move the mic, it's allot less strain on your back :) Use REW to take measurements at different locations using an RS SPL meter, once you find the best one, place the sub there,...run ARO if necessary and tweak settings. Done.

No need to move the sub but once. Place the sub where you sit and move the mic, it's allot less strain on your back :) Use REW to take measurements at different locations using an RS SPL meter, once you find the best one, place the sub there,...run ARO if necessary and tweak settings. Done.



Getting a second sub would be sooo much more fun! :)

I cannot afford to have THAT much fun right now, so your idea would be best :)

No need to move the sub but once. Place the sub where you sit and move the mic, it's allot less strain on your back :) Use REW to take measurements at different locations using an RS SPL meter, once you find the best one, place the sub there,...run ARO if necessary and tweak settings. Done.

You can also do the "crawl". Leave everything were it is then crawl around the room and where the bass is weakest place the sub there. Isn't that the "crawl"???

Seriously...

LOL....if you need two of these subs to make up for your deficit, then perhaps you have the wrong sub? No need to resell the wife, just resell the F113?

How many times are you going to try to stir up a bee nest. For the money the Jl sub is a great deal. Show me another sub that fits in any room and looks as sweet as the Jl and performs like the Jl at it's price. Now mosey on back to whatever brand you sell.

Any suggestions how how to smooth out the bass at the lower frequencies without killing the impact? Perhaps I have missed something in my set-up? I am looking for tight clean bass that gives a solid punch without shaking the house down. That is why I bought this sub as oposed to others and want to ensure i have optimized it best I can.

Any help or suggestions would be great!

Thanks!

There were a couple of later post such as the size of your room, etc. that added to your initial post.

My initial impression is that you are probably contributing to the problem by having the subwoofer in the corner. That does boost lower frequencies but depending on "how much", the equalizer may be struggling to then eliminate it.

As a practical matter, you really need to run REW or makes friends quick with someone in your area who has REW up and running and knows how to use it so that we can see what is actually happening in your room.

I see people adding subwoofer or switching brands because someone else said so with no consideration that the sub they have is probably just fine if used properly.

How many times are you going to try to stir up a bee nest. For the money the Jl sub is a great deal. Show me another sub that fits in any room and looks as sweet as the Jl and performs like the Jl at it's price. Now mosey on back to whatever brand you sell.

For the money....really?

Elemental Designs A7-900 ($2200 ID/SI): 116 points (63-53)
Epik Conquest ($1599 ID): 112 points (60-52)
SVS PB13-Ultra ($1499 ID): 109 points (57-52)
Epik Castle ($999 ID): 109 points (59-50)
AV123 MFW-15 Duals: 109 points (56-53)
Creative Sounds Dual SDX-15 driver + Behringer EP-2500 Amp + Behringer DEQ2496 ($1630 ID): 105 points (57-48)
JL Audio Fathom 113 ($3500 BM): 103 points (53-50)
AV123 MFW-15 ($599 ID): 103 points (53-50)
Def Tech Trinity ($3000 BM): 102 points (54-48)
Velodyne DD-18 ($5000 BM): 100 points (50-50)
ACI Maestro ($2400 ID): 97 points (47-50)
eD A5-350 ($715 ID/SI): 96 points (50-46)
JL Audio Fathom 112 ($2600 BM): 95 points (45-50)
Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo ($999 ID): 94 points (47-47)
;)

For the money....really?

Elemental Designs A7-900 ($2200 ID/SI): 116 points (63-53)
Epik Conquest ($1599 ID): 112 points (60-52)
SVS PB13-Ultra ($1499 ID): 109 points (57-52)
Epik Castle ($999 ID): 109 points (59-50)
AV123 MFW-15 Duals: 109 points (56-53)
Creative Sounds Dual SDX-15 driver + Behringer EP-2500 Amp + Behringer DEQ2496 ($1630 ID): 105 points (57-48)
JL Audio Fathom 113 ($3500 BM): 103 points (53-50)
AV123 MFW-15 ($599 ID): 103 points (53-50)
Def Tech Trinity ($3000 BM): 102 points (54-48)
Velodyne DD-18 ($5000 BM): 100 points (50-50)
ACI Maestro ($2400 ID): 97 points (47-50)
eD A5-350 ($715 ID/SI): 96 points (50-46)
JL Audio Fathom 112 ($2600 BM): 95 points (45-50)
Hsu VTF-3 HO + Turbo ($999 ID): 94 points (47-47)
;)

The subs that better the JL's performance are two, three, and four times the size, not to mention butt ugly.

JL subs are selling for significantly less than the msrp you posted, as are most subs on the list. For those that have come to the thread late Getech please explain how once you at one time acquired the JL Audio line and now you no longer sell it?

As a practical matter, you really need to run REW or makes friends quick with someone in your area who has REW up and running and knows how to use it so that we can see what is actually happening in your room.



I have the REW software, but still need to purchase an External Sound Card for my laptop. I am looking at what Soundblaster has to offer, but it will cost me around $200, unless anyone has a better suggestions?

I am looking forward to analyzing all of this :)

The subs that better the JL's performance are two, three, and four times the size, not to mention butt ugly.

Well said!

Next time I want a sub the size of an oven in my living room, getech's the first guy I talk to:rolleyes:.

I have the REW software, but still need to purchase an External Sound Card for my laptop. I am looking at what Soundblaster has to offer, but it will cost me around $200, unless anyone has a better suggestions?

I am looking forward to analyzing all of this :)

Know what you mean about that sound card. I've got one of the external usb ones from Soundblaster. I think their price ran on up as I don't believe I spent anywhere near that amount for mine.

I have the REW software, but still need to purchase an External Sound Card for my laptop. I am looking at what Soundblaster has to offer, but it will cost me around $200, unless anyone has a better suggestions?

I am looking forward to analyzing all of this :)

Have you tried the built in laptop sound card? You can do a loop back on it and create a sound.cal compensation file that would compensate for frequency deviations.
Most users go with an external usb SB audio device for laptops but it may not be necessary if the built in one works.

The crawl method also works to a point,...i.e. it will sound good but as tweakers we want the best, we want to see what we can't hear :) as in a graph or our AV's displaying DTS MASTER AUDIO,...then we believe we have "the best" setup :)
The new version of REW also as a built in RTA, which makes it so much faster to setup all your speakers.

Hello,

Uhmmm well I have no idea what all that meant :) But if you explain a bit more in detail, perhaps I will give it a shot :)

Have you tried the built in laptop sound card? You can do a loop back on it and create a sound.cal compensation file that would compensate for frequency deviations.
Most users go with an external usb SB audio device for laptops but it may not be necessary if the built in one works.



Seems that the problem with using a laptop's internal sound card extended beyond frequency response into something that a compensation file couldn't correct.

Seems that the problem with using a laptop's internal sound card extended beyond frequency response into something that a compensation file couldn't correct.

Unfortunately, laptop sound card chips are based on a price point :( I guess he will have to get an external SB.

Hello,

Uhmmm well I have no idea what all that meant :) But if you explain a bit more in detail, perhaps I will give it a shot :)

REW is a very powerful program and it allows one to compensate for frequency response deviations in your measuring "loop". However, most of the sound chips in most laptops are not suitable for measurement because the spec are soooo bad.

It does seem that someone with an apple laptop had a good enough built in sound that he didn't need an external sound card. You wouldn't happen to have a Mac laptop?