Hello,

I have a good ole' fashioned Dell Laptop :) I will have to bite the bullet and get an external soundcard, but will have to wait until I ge tsome extra cash. Christmas and the purchase of the f113 tooks its toll :)

It was worth it!

Thanks

Good day,

For those of you that have used the REW Software to examine the f113 sub in your listening space, I am hoping you can give some advice.

I am not able to find a good SoundBlaster External Sound Card from any reputable dealers. I even went to the Creative Labs website and they do not seem to have an external sound card that accepts RCA.

I did however, find an external sound card, but not sure if this would work Perhaps one of you could look at the link and let me know if you think that might be sufficient. Thanks in advance!! :)

StarTech.com ICUSBAUDIO7D 7.1 USB Audio Adapter External Sound Card - USB 2.0, Phono 3.5mm Female, 16-Bit, 1 x Audio Output(2 Channel)

http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=5344880&CatId=4261

It doesn't have to accept RCA, just needs a true line-in connection. You can always use a 3.5mm to RCA cable (or adapter).

I have successfully used both the Audigy2 ZS PCMCIA card and the SB X-Fi USB for REW.

for under $200 get the Tascam US-144 or similar "pro" grade usb external
soundcard. That's what I use. I got the adaptors (rca to pin) from Radio
Shack.

It doesn't have to accept RCA, just needs a true line-in connection. You can always use a 3.5mm to RCA cable (or adapter).

I have successfully used both the Audigy2 ZS PCMCIA card and the SB X-Fi USB for REW.

Hello,

I apologize for all the questions, but I have been doing a lot of reading on sound cards for laptops and hooking this all up ...and the more I read, the more I get confused. lol

I can buy the Sound Blaster X-Fi 5.1 for about $50 from Best Buy and that will work..correct. So how I do hook up all of this up to just check the sub and nothing else? I understand the need for the adapter to compensate for the lack of RCA inputs. The REW website seems to go into much more detail about hooking up to an equalizer which I do not want right now. I just want to analyze the sub for now.

Thanks for all of you help on this.

SeeD,

The REW threads on Hometheatershack.com is your best source for information for using REW.

If you were reading about how to send filters to an equalizer, then you were on the wrong threads or someone hijacked a thread...as you are doing. :)

My apologies to everyone.

So where is everyone? Why no new posts?

Dang...did I kill this forum??? :)

Bypass the furman and see if the noise stops.

Hello,

I know this is the JL Fathom 113 thread. I should be posting this in the F112 thread instead for my question relates particularly to the latter. But I think both shares a lot in common and this thread is much more active. I hope I get quick response form you here.

My question:

I realized things I put on the F112 for example a bagpack with a sweater which I take for bike riding get luke warm. Is this common? I didn't notice this when I touched the top of the sub before. But this incident with the backpack brought up this issue.

Michaelmorio

I know this is the JL Fathom 113 thread. I should be posting this in the F112 thread instead for my question relates particularly to the latter. But I think both shares a lot in common and this thread is much more activeyeah, I think this thread should have been titled to include all three Fathom models (F110, F112, F113), more appropriate. Keep all information more localized. Instead we have to spend hours trying to find other existing threads.

Hello,

I know this is the JL Fathom 113 thread. I should be posting this in the F112 thread instead for my question relates particularly to the latter. But I think both shares a lot in common and this thread is much more active. I hope I get quick response form you here.

My question:

I realized things I put on the F112 for example a bagpack with a sweater which I take for bike riding get luke warm. Is this common? I didn't notice this when I touched the top of the sub before. But this incident with the backpack brought up this issue.

Michaelmorio

I am sorry for quoting my post. But is there anyone who could comment to my question? Thank you in advance!

Michaelmorio

All amplified products are going to get somewhat warm when they are on. as long as they are not hot, I would not worry. If you are concerned, have you touched the chassis or fins out the back with your hand to determine ambient temparature off the F112? If you have and it seems somewhat warm, you might want to inquire of JL by calling them, but remember, when you put something like that on the chassis, you are putting something like a blanket on the amp which will of course keep the chassis from radiating heat more and could slightly insulate the amp getting it to warm up somewhat more. When you don't have the backpack on the chassis, is it warm or cool?

I assume the 112 works fine other than this?

Basically, I'd just not put anything on the woofer chassis to begin with, anyway.

Oddefile,

Thank you for your post.
When I touched the fins on the back of the F112, I did't feel them warm. But I do't remember well. I will see how warm it could get without the backpack.
I remember readig somewhere some peaple are putting an amplifier on top of a sub and I thought it woudn't be a problem to leave a small thing like a backpack on it.

There is one thing I am a bit concerned with. The noise level. I usually set volume level at around 2 o'clock level. Occasionally I push it to 3-4 o'clock level and then I hear a bit louder noise coming from the sub. It's a low-tone noise. I hear this when I am fairly close to the sub, say 1-2 feet away. I can't hear it from my listening distance at all. Is this normal?

Michaelmorio

Michaelmorio,

Could be some ground loop hum. try changing the position of the ground switch on the back panel and see if it goes away or gets worse. I have a minor ground loop, very, very faint, no matter what I do or set in my system. Sometimes, it gets a tad louder, sometimes almost gone. A floating hum. See if that is the problem. You may try lifting a ground on other equipment to experiment just to see if it is a ground loop by using a cheater plug (I do not recommend that as a permanent fix, just to check). Or, disconnect the subs input from the signal line and turn it on to see if the hum disappears. IF so, you have a ground loop. IF not, then it may be some fault in the sub amp. I would contact Barry Ober the tech specialist for JL Audio by calling JL and go from there.

I thought it woudn't be a problem to leave a small thing like a backpack on itgonna have to find another "backpack stand". Try a chair, or using a hook on the wall:)

Just got my Fathom F113.....pretty damn excited!

Anyway, my front speakers (which I'll hopefully upgrade if I have any $$ ever again after this purchase) go down to 80 hz. Where should I put the crossover for the Fantom? I'm used to 80 on other subs, but my dealer said it should be between 30hz and 50hz. No clue.

Also, what about all the settings on the front of the sub? There's another crossover setting, ELF trim, ref/variable, etc....

I searched and couldn't see anything on what people are setting them at.

Room is fairly small at 2100 cubic feet.

I'd appreciate any feedback.

If your speakers are spec'd to 80hz, cross them over at 100. I personally don't recommend using the trim control unless you can physically see how your sub is interacting with your room.

I'd recommend starting at an 80 Hz crossover and seeing how it sounds at that setting.

If you're using the crossover settings in your receiver setup menu, then you don't need to engage the crossover on the F113. The "ELF" setting will adjust the amount of very low bass in your room, and this will be determined by how the sub interacts with your room. Of course, if you have access to an SPL meter, you can set this fairly accurately.

You'll need to set the "REF/Variable" switch to variable, so you can adjust the output volume of the sub with its volume control knob.

There are a few extra tricks for placement and setup, but you should get a bit familiar with the sub before you get too worried about "perfection" at this point. Just follow the setup instructions in the manual (ARO, etc.) and you'll be enjoying the F113 very quickly.

Lee

Just to add, play a track with good tight heavy bass guitar or even kick drum. Start at 80 hz and work down. The Fathom is a pretty tight sub when crossed over properly. It will depend on how steep your main speakers drop off below the lower frequencies,40hz and lower. That's where the crossover slopes of 12/24db can help smooth it out. I have mine set at 50 hz. You can use your processor (first choice) or the Fathom's crossovers.If you choose to use the processor's crossover frequencies and slopes then use the reference setting. Just confirm the crossover switch on the Fathom is set to "off". If you need to trim the levels more then use variable. Either way it's just tw ways to adjust your gain on the sub. Let your mains work at the frequencies they can handle effectively.

Would there be any advantage to adding a F110 to go with an F113 for a dual sub setup? Or would you have to get another F113?

I hardly need two, but I have a spot and cable ran for a second...so the mind wanders.....;)

Would there be any advantage to adding a F110 to go with an F113 for a dual sub setup? Or would you have to get another F113?

I hardly need two, but I have a spot and cable ran for a second...so the mind wanders.....;)

Funny, exact same thing I was thinking about:D.

Would there be any advantage to adding a F110 to go with an F113 for a dual sub setup? Or would you have to get another F113?

I hardly need two, but I have a spot and cable ran for a second...so the mind wanders.....;)

Unless you could apply a high pass filter to the lesser sub, I wouldn't bother.

Would there be any advantage to adding a F110 to go with an F113 for a dual sub setup? Or would you have to get another F113?

I hardly need two, but I have a spot and cable ran for a second...so the mind wanders.....;)

Intergrating two identical subs is hard enough. Trying to intergrate two dissimilar subs often doesn't work at all. If you're buying, I'd get a second F113 or sell it and get two F110s.

Two F113's is the way to go. JL is big on stereo or quad subs and for good reason... they balance the room. It is not all about ultimate volume output, but more about room balance and eliminating room nodes much more effectively. When I bought my first 113, I loved it. But, on rare occasion, I did hear some room nodes and slight localization which, while it was not immense, began to bother me now and again. I became aware of the sub and room instead of the music or movie. When I added the second 113 and balanced them out, etc., the literally disappeared into the room - no more discernable nodes, no more room problems to any degree noticeable, etc. Also, the bottom end balanced out across the sonic envelope perfectly. Its sort of like the difference with your main F/R speakers listening to music and suddenly one woofer stops working. You know you have bass, but the bottom end just does not gel or integrate as well. So it is with subs. That's why JL says whenever possible, get two of them. Keep looking around for a good deal on a second 113 and realize its not about kill or over kill, but balance, moreso that just shear flat out bottom end. Of course, the additional dynamic envelope and air movement is always welcome. Especially, since the JL's produce such fast, inegrated, tuneful and beautiful "tone", bass.

Two F113's is the way to go. JL is big on stereo or quad subs and for good reason... they balance the room. It is not all about ultimate volume output, but more about room balance and eliminating room nodes much more effectively. When I bought my first 113, I loved it. But, on rare occasion, I did hear some room nodes and slight localization which, while it was not immense, began to bother me now and again. I became aware of the sub and room instead of the music or movie. When I added the second 113 and balanced them out, etc., the literally disappeared into the room - no more discernable nodes, no more room problems to any degree noticeable, etc. Also, the bottom end balanced out across the sonic envelope perfectly. Its sort of like the difference with your main F/R speakers listening to music and suddenly one woofer stops working. You know you have bass, but the bottom end just does not gel or integrate as well. So it is with subs. That's why JL says whenever possible, get two of them. Keep looking around for a good deal on a second 113 and realize its not about kill or over kill, but balance, moreso that just shear flat out bottom end. Of course, the additional dynamic envelope and air movement is always welcome. Especially, since the JL's produce such fast, inegrated, tuneful and beautiful "tone", bass.

Preach on brother preach on!

Two F113's is the way to go. JL is big on stereo or quad subs and for good reason... they balance the room. It is not all about ultimate volume output, but more about room balance and eliminating room nodes much more effectively. When I bought my first 113, I loved it. But, on rare occasion, I did hear some room nodes and slight localization which, while it was not immense, began to bother me now and again. I became aware of the sub and room instead of the music or movie. When I added the second 113 and balanced them out, etc., the literally disappeared into the room - no more discernable nodes, no more room problems to any degree noticeable, etc. Also, the bottom end balanced out across the sonic envelope perfectly. Its sort of like the difference with your main F/R speakers listening to music and suddenly one woofer stops working. You know you have bass, but the bottom end just does not gel or integrate as well. So it is with subs. That's why JL says whenever possible, get two of them. Keep looking around for a good deal on a second 113 and realize its not about kill or over kill, but balance, moreso that just shear flat out bottom end. Of course, the additional dynamic envelope and air movement is always welcome. Especially, since the JL's produce such fast, inegrated, tuneful and beautiful "tone", bass.

Well now that you put it THAT way....:D.

Hey all. Anyone else blow their F113 in less than 45 days? I've always been a big JL fan and buyer, (2 13W7's in my SUV w/a JL Audio 1000/1 monoblock powering them). I've probably used my F113 a max of 10 times since I purchased it. Due to the size, I had to borrow a neighbor's SUV to haul it home. Anyway, I had just purchased the Integra 80.1 preamp last week and was setting it up. I was testing it with my XBox 360 HD-DVD playing a movie, when the Sub started with a constant tone at about 800Hz I'd guess. I then shut everything off, unplugged the Sub, disconnected the RCA, and switched it back on - same issue. When I switch the sub from on to off, the tone decays slowly. I'm thinking it's a blown amp.

The annoying thing about all this is that I've spent time hauling my sub home, to have it die in 45 days. Now I've been told I have to ship the whole sub back and pay for 1/2 the shipping. I can understand this if it was 1 year, but this is obviously a defective unit from day one, just waiting to blow up. Honestly, I think I deserve a replacement sub. Hopefully JL will understand that they have a lifetime fan and do the right thing. I'll update the thread to let you guys know what JL ultimately does. (On JL's defense, I've not yet finalized the way this will be handled w/my audio shop, but this was what I've been initially told.)

Hey all. Anyone else blow their F113 in less than 45 days? I've always been a big JL fan and buyer, (2 13W7's in my SUV w/a JL Audio 1000/1 monoblock powering them). I've probably used my F113 a max of 10 times since I purchased it. Due to the size, I had to borrow a neighbor's SUV to haul it home. Anyway, I had just purchased the Integra 80.1 preamp last week and was setting it up. I was testing it with my XBox 360 HD-DVD playing a movie, when the Sub started with a constant tone at about 800Hz I'd guess. I then shut everything off, unplugged the Sub, disconnected the RCA, and switched it back on - same issue. When I switch the sub from on to off, the tone decays slowly. I'm thinking it's a blown amp.

The annoying thing about all this is that I've spent time hauling my sub home, to have it die in 45 days. Now I've been told I have to ship the whole sub back and pay for 1/2 the shipping. I can understand this if it was 1 year, but this is obviously a defective unit from day one, just waiting to blow up. Honestly, I think I deserve a replacement sub. Hopefully JL will understand that they have a lifetime fan and do the right thing. I'll update the thread to let you guys know what JL ultimately does. (On JL's defense, I've not yet finalized the way this will be handled w/my audio shop, but this was what I've been initially told.)

Keep all your correspondence with JL Audio just in case. If their sub is defective then you have every legal right to expect them to pay for shipping back to them and then in a timely manner back to you. One caveat is that they may think that you mishandled the sub (which certainly doesn't sound like it) therefore want you to pay some of the shipping. Document like crazy and make sure you update all on this board, no company likes bad press to ripple out there.
Good luck!

Keep all your correspondence with JL Audio just in case. If their sub is defective then you have every legal right to expect them to pay for shipping back to them and then in a timely manner back to you. One caveat is that they may think that you mishandled the sub (which certainly doesn't sound like it) therefore want you to pay some of the shipping. Document like crazy and make sure you update all on this board, no company likes bad press to ripple out there.
Good luck!


The sub started producing the errant tone while watching a movie would indicate some electrical malfunction.The subs have protection circuitry so there's no way you could have overdriven the sub! Have YOU called JL Audio and spoken with anyone yet? I have read that JL is good at handling their claims. If you do not ask for a replacemment F113 you may not get one! Using your authorized dealer may help but I've always folowed the process of the more communication you are able to directly have with the manufacturer the better the outcome usually is. It's your sub now, not the dealer's unit. If you aren't satisfied just bug the heck out of them until the problem is resolved.

Good advice. I'm still working on sorting it all out. I'll update when it's solved.

Two F113's is the way to go. JL is big on stereo or quad subs and for good reason... they balance the room. It is not all about ultimate volume output, but more about room balance and eliminating room nodes much more effectively. When I bought my first 113, I loved it. But, on rare occasion, I did hear some room nodes and slight localization which, while it was not immense, began to bother me now and again. I became aware of the sub and room instead of the music or movie. When I added the second 113 and balanced them out, etc., the literally disappeared into the room - no more discernable nodes, no more room problems to any degree noticeable, etc. Also, the bottom end balanced out across the sonic envelope perfectly. Its sort of like the difference with your main F/R speakers listening to music and suddenly one woofer stops working. You know you have bass, but the bottom end just does not gel or integrate as well. So it is with subs. That's why JL says whenever possible, get two of them. Keep looking around for a good deal on a second 113 and realize its not about kill or over kill, but balance, moreso that just shear flat out bottom end. Of course, the additional dynamic envelope and air movement is always welcome. Especially, since the JL's produce such fast, inegrated, tuneful and beautiful "tone", bass.

I have to agree dual F113'S are the way to go. As JimP on this thread can contest my dual F113'S sounded awesome. I went with dual Danley DTS-10'S and to be honest I like the dual Fathoms better. As Arnold says "Ill be back"

Two F113's is the way to go. JL is big on stereo or quad subs and for good reason... they balance the room. It is not all about ultimate volume output, but more about room balance and eliminating room nodes much more effectively. When I bought my first 113, I loved it. But, on rare occasion, I did hear some room nodes and slight localization which, while it was not immense, began to bother me now and again. I became aware of the sub and room instead of the music or movie. When I added the second 113 and balanced them out, etc., the literally disappeared into the room - no more discernable nodes, no more room problems to any degree noticeable, etc. Also, the bottom end balanced out across the sonic envelope perfectly. Its sort of like the difference with your main F/R speakers listening to music and suddenly one woofer stops working. You know you have bass, but the bottom end just does not gel or integrate as well. So it is with subs. That's why JL says whenever possible, get two of them. Keep looking around for a good deal on a second 113 and realize its not about kill or over kill, but balance, moreso that just shear flat out bottom end. Of course, the additional dynamic envelope and air movement is always welcome. Especially, since the JL's produce such fast, inegrated, tuneful and beautiful "tone", bass.
Stop it! It will not be better, it will not be better, it will not be better with two. :) Must....keep....repeating...that...wife...would....kill...me ...
:D

Stop it! It will not be better, it will not be better, it will not be better with two. :) Must....keep....repeating...that...wife...would....kill...me ...
:D

LOL!! I hear you loud and clear, pal.

Regarding JL Audio and my broken F113. After talking to my dealer and JL Audio support, it looks like I have 2 options:

1. Return the sub to JL to be fixed. Shipping via Fed Ex is about $80.
2. Bring the sub to the retailer and they volunteered to swap out my broken sub for the demo F113.

So, either way I end up with either a demo sub or a refurbished sub. At the moment I'm leaning toward just exchanging it for the demo unit, as long as it doesn't have any cosmetic defects.

Barry at JL support said that they will not replace ANY subwoofer, but will just repair it under warranty, (as the warranty states). I have to pay 1 way of the shipping costs. I then mentioned to him that I have purchased 1 amplifier and 8 subwoofers from JL over the last 10 years, with no change in response.

JL makes some good equipment. I don't doubt that. But, you'd think they'd bend a bit on their policy for such a longtime customer when it was obvious I ended up with a lemon. I'd even be happy if JL would volunteer to just pay shipping both ways on this one.

Regarding JL Audio and my broken F113. After talking to my dealer and JL Audio support, it looks like I have 2 options:

1. Return the sub to JL to be fixed. Shipping via Fed Ex is about $80.
2. Bring the sub to the retailer and they volunteered to swap out my broken sub for the demo F113.

So, either way I end up with either a demo sub or a refurbished sub. At the moment I'm leaning toward just exchanging it for the demo unit, as long as it doesn't have any cosmetic defects.

Barry at JL support said that they will not replace ANY subwoofer, but will just repair it under warranty, (as the warranty states). I have to pay 1 way of the shipping costs. I then mentioned to him that I have purchased 1 amplifier and 8 subwoofers from JL over the last 10 years, with no change in response.

JL makes some good equipment. I don't doubt that. But, you'd think they'd bend a bit on their policy for such a longtime customer when it was obvious I ended up with a lemon. I'd even be happy if JL would volunteer to just pay shipping both ways on this one.

Will they let you remove the amp and send just that back to them? If it's an amp problem, they don't need the whole cabinet and driver to fix it.

Craig

I have 2 new F112's which are great so far. They are fed by 14/2 wire (about 70' from the panel) and are on a 15amp circuit. No breakers have tripped yet, but do you folks think I would benefit much from upping it to 12/2 on a 20a (or 15a) ? I'm planning on doing some other rewiring, so I'm just wondered if this would be benefcial/necessary. Thanks

PS. Sorry, I know this is a 113 thread, but it is the same 'family' and the F112 thread is very old.

Happy owner of multiple f113's and I have to report no issues with any.

I had a lemon,my very first JL, and the service from JL Audio was exemplary. I can only recommend this company for the great service and products.

I LOVE my fathom f113. But I have upgraditis, and although I don't want a massive cylindrical sub, I could fit something like a Seaton Submersive. I've read favorable comparisons for the Submersive compared to the f113 and was thinking about adding one to the f113 or just replacing the f113. Anyone make that switch or addition and have any thoughts?

I LOVE my fathom f113. But I have upgraditis, and although I don't want a massive cylindrical sub, I could fit something like a Seaton Submersive. I've read favorable comparisons for the Submersive compared to the f113 and was thinking about adding one to the f113 or just replacing the f113. Anyone make that switch or addition and have any thoughts?

PM sent.

I have 2 new F112's which are great so far. They are fed by 14/2 wire (about 70' from the panel) and are on a 15amp circuit. No breakers have tripped yet, but do you folks think I would benefit much from upping it to 12/2 on a 20a (or 15a) ? I'm planning on doing some other rewiring, so I'm just wondered if this would be benefcial/necessary. Thanks

PS. Sorry, I know this is a 113 thread, but it is the same 'family' and the F112 thread is very old.

I was running dual F112 on a single 15 amp circuit with your typical pre-construction romex with NO problems. If the breaker isn't tripping then you should be fine.

I know knowbody here pays MSRP for the JL, and none of my dealers want to come down to much from $3600. So where can i get the F113 for under $2K? It is possible right?

Anyone bought a F113 from BAdgirl on Audiogon? Her feedback looks really promising.

She claims the unit she has come with warranty!

If I wanted to stick with my fathom f113 and add another f113 to it, knowing I'm not a good audio tweaker, would you guys suggest that I colocate a 2nd one or try to put the 2nd one on the other side of the room. I just don't want to make my bass worse.

I have 2 new F112's which are great so far. They are fed by 14/2 wire (about 70' from the panel) and are on a 15amp circuit. No breakers have tripped yet, but do you folks think I would benefit much from upping it to 12/2 on a 20a (or 15a) ? I'm planning on doing some other rewiring, so I'm just wondered if this would be benefcial/necessary. Thanks

PS. Sorry, I know this is a 113 thread, but it is the same 'family' and the F112 thread is very old.

You can if you want but I don't see any major benefit.

Regarding JL Audio and my broken F113. After talking to my dealer and JL Audio support, it looks like I have 2 options:

1. Return the sub to JL to be fixed. Shipping via Fed Ex is about $80.
2. Bring the sub to the retailer and they volunteered to swap out my broken sub for the demo F113.

So, either way I end up with either a demo sub or a refurbished sub. At the moment I'm leaning toward just exchanging it for the demo unit, as long as it doesn't have any cosmetic defects.

Barry at JL support said that they will not replace ANY subwoofer, but will just repair it under warranty, (as the warranty states). I have to pay 1 way of the shipping costs. I then mentioned to him that I have purchased 1 amplifier and 8 subwoofers from JL over the last 10 years, with no change in response.

JL makes some good equipment. I don't doubt that. But, you'd think they'd bend a bit on their policy for such a longtime customer when it was obvious I ended up with a lemon. I'd even be happy if JL would volunteer to just pay shipping both ways on this one.

Yep that is standard policy. If the unit was DOA then I'm sure they would send a replacement. C-John's idea was a good one as well, just sending back the amp.

I'm sure JL appreciates all your business but your "12 volt" purchases do not affect your dealing with the JL dealer you got the sub from.

Now the dealer may offer to cover return shipping or a portion of that cost on the warranty repair.

I have only had one F112 issue [amp] and one F113 issue [ B L O W N driver ] in the past 2-3 years.

Yep that is standard policy. If the unit was DOA then I'm sure they would send a replacement. C-John's idea was a good one as well, just sending back the amp.

I'm sure JL appreciates all your business but your "12 volt" purchases do not affect your dealing with the JL dealer you got the sub from.

Now the dealer may offer to cover return shipping or a portion of that cost on the warranty repair.

I have only had one F112 issue [amp] and one F113 issue [ B L O W N driver ] in the past 2-3 years.

Holy cow! what did you do to blow an f113 driver?!?!?! these are practically bullet proof drivers...

Yikes! Must have been one huge cone excursion to do that.

Holy cow! what did you do to blow an f113 driver?!?!?! these are practically bullet proof drivers...

Yikes! Must have been one huge cone excursion to do that.

Perhaps not so bullet proof. :eek:

Yep that is standard policy. If the unit was DOA then I'm sure they would send a replacement.

Yeah, when I purchased the first of my two 113's, the auto-off circuitry wasn't working, and JL replaced it new, via my local dealer - that exchange occurred within the first week of sale.

They were prompt and thorough in my dealings with them, both over the phone and via email.

Perhaps not so bullet proof. :eek:

getech... I am curious what you did to blow the driver. I have run the heck out of mine with no issues. The driver and circuitry is supposed to have protection mechanisms/etc. in place to avoid this from happening. My understanding is blown drivers are very rare.

getech... I am curious what you did to blow the driver. I have run the heck out of mine with no issues. The driver and circuitry is supposed to have protection mechanisms/etc. in place to avoid this from happening. My understanding is blown drivers are very rare.

I wasn't the individual that had blown an F113 driver. You are right though, it is rather rare and that there is or should be proper circuitry as well as solid build in most subs to prevent this.

Regarding my F113 - it's on it's way in for repair. The shop swapped me for their in-store demo unit. I brought it home and it immediately made a ticking noise from the woofer, very quiet, at about 75 ticks per second. It took me about 1 minute to unplug the thing and suspect something was going on in my electrical system as now this is the 2nd F113 in a row to act strange. As a sanity check, I ran an extension cord to my neighbor's house - same problem. I then took the woofer back the next day and they tried it - same problem. Of course this wasn't happening in the store the previous day. They kept the woofer and I called back the next day. It turns out the ticking stops in about a 1/2 hour?! So, the sub works, but has this quirk. They let me take it back for a temporary replacement, and I'll just wait for my repaired F113 over the demo ticking F113.

Either way, this is 0 for 2 and not a good sign. *sigh*

While we're on this topic i should chime in as well on JL's reliability. I started off with a F112 and as soon as i got it home it made a loud humming noise from the amp. Brought it right back and took the oppurtunity to "upgrade" to the F113. Once i made the swap the new F113 was much quieter, barely any hum, but i noticed after a week of playing some bass heavy material i noticed it produced that infamous coffee perculating noise (ticking noise) under excursion. I was not driving it hard at all, maybe 60% of the output. I documented this here earlier. I had to struggle with JL for a month and they finally swapped the unit out for me for another one.

So far my current unit has worked flawlessly and even when i turn it up the bass is very clear. No humming from the amp nor ticking noises from the driver.

Suffice it to say JL customer service is good, but needs improvement. You'll have to struggle with them to prove your case. The reliability of these units are HIT or MISS!! Because of this i am hesitant on getting a second F113 as i just don't want to deal with this hassle again!

To bluntguy -> I would never opt for a repair on your new unit. Get them to swap it out for a new one!!! You'll have to work at it, but let them know you are the "Customer"

I understand that others have had problems with units. Mine has been flawless from day one. I have no idea how JL's reliability rating might compare to another sub manufacturer, but I'd be interested to hear.

I had one incident early on the first week with the infamous "ticking" which is the limiter circuitry correct? Strange thing is it did it that one day and never came back. Had the auto on circuitry not respond once, rebooted the subwoofer and it has worked fine ever since. In regards to swapping for a new sub good luck. Hope they do give you a replacement for your peace of mind. When a new car has a warranty problem does the dealer give you a new car and take back the old car? ;)

Update on my F110:

After contacting JL Audio support I received an e-mail (and phone call) from Barry. He was very thorough in helping me to process my unit and get it shipped back to the factory.

Dave

I have a pair of Gotham G213. I'd hate to think about shipping one of the 360 pound monsters back to the factory!

Ive owned them for 2+ years, driven them very hard, and so far, no problems.

I have a pair of Gotham G213.
SWEET JEEBUS! :eek::eek::eek:

I had a problem with 2 of my 4 F113s at separate times and had no problems with customer service. I live near the Canadian distributor and just swapped them out for new ones each time. No hassle, just a few questions.

I LOVE my fathom f113. But I have upgraditis, and although I don't want a massive cylindrical sub, I could fit something like a Seaton Submersive. I've read favorable comparisons for the Submersive compared to the f113 and was thinking about adding one to the f113 or just replacing the f113. Anyone make that switch or addition and have any thoughts?

I have both sitting in my to be HT room right now.

I came to the conclusion that room size will dictate which sub is "better" more so than the sub itself.

In my ~2500ft^3 room I really can't tell the subs apart when watching movies. I haven't got around to taking actual measurements though, and considering I don't listen to measurements I'm not busting to do so. No doubt the submersive will have more output lower down, but I am yet to play a movie that shows it!

Now in a larger room I can see the submersive might move ahead in the lower end department. I had the JL in a room three times the size, and found its limits rather easy. In the current room I find MY limits much sooner! :eek:

Hope this is of some help.

I have both sitting in my to be HT room right now.

I came to the conclusion that room size will dictate which sub is "better" more so than the sub itself.

In my ~2500ft^3 room I really can't tell the subs apart when watching movies. I haven't got around to taking actual measurements though, and considering I don't listen to measurements I'm not busting to do so. No doubt the submersive will have more output lower down, but I am yet to play a movie that shows it!

Now in a larger room I can see the submersive might move ahead in the lower end department. I had the JL in a room three times the size, and found its limits rather easy. In the current room I find MY limits much sooner! :eek:

Hope this is of some help.
That helps A LOT. My room is smaller than yours, maybe 2200ft^3 (15x18 with 8 foot ceilings, not open to any other rooms). I think I'd probably do best just to add a 2nd f113 if I wanted to balance things and smooth out the curve a little. Thanks again!

And this is one of my favorite quotes in AVS history (emphasis added by me):

I haven't got around to taking actual measurements though, and considering I don't listen to measurements I'm not busting to do so.

That helps A LOT. My room is smaller than yours, maybe 2200ft^3 (15x18 with 8 foot ceilings, not open to any other rooms). I think I'd probably do best just to add a 2nd f113 if I wanted to balance things and smooth out the curve a little. Thanks again!

And this is one of my favorite quotes in AVS history (emphasis added by me):

If your room is even smaller and you are contemplating a second sub you might do well do get 2 F112s and save some money.
I totally under estimated the output of an F113. Just for an "experiment" I turned the sub up from dial position just under 9 o'clock (reference) to 12 and played the lightening strike from ratatouille. The impact was so hard it tickled my throat and chest. Scary! If I had my time again I would have bought 2 F112s. From what I read, there isn't that much difference between them.

BTW, my room has concrete walls and floors and is also sealed.

If your room is even smaller and you are contemplating a second sub you might do well do get 2 F112s and save some money.
I totally under estimated the output of an F113. Just for an "experiment" I turned the sub up from dial position just under 9 o'clock (reference) to 12 and played the lightening strike from ratatouille. The impact was so hard it tickled my throat and chest. Scary! If I had my time again I would have bought 2 F112s. From what I read, there isn't that much difference between them.

BTW, my room has concrete walls and floors and is also sealed.
Well, I already have the f113, which is likely more than enough, but...I have the upgrade bug and want to do something. Adding a 2nd f113 on the other side should just make it that much cooler. Do I really *need* a second f113? Of course not. But 2 just looks (and hopefully sounds) so much better! :D

Well, I already have the f113, which is likely more than enough, but...I have the upgrade bug and want to do something. Adding a 2nd f113 on the other side should just make it that much cooler. Do I really *need* a second f113? Of course not. But 2 just looks (and hopefully sounds) so much better! :D

I'm in the same boat. My room is 2000 cubic feet, and my F113 is scary awesome in it.

But, if I come across a good deal on another F113 I'm all over it.

Those of us with two or more F113's will tell you, yes, it makes a difference. One of the biggest differences is that it balances out the bass in the room more effectively, which to me is more important even then the additional headroom of two or more subs. I can not even tell where the subs are properly integrated and you can no longer localize and "find" the sound of your sub any longer with two or more. And, yup, the bass is just that much more open and relaxed at the same volume levels with more of them involved.

I figured this would be the place to ask --- I have the opportunity to get a F110 for $1k off MSRP -- and was wondering about any impressions for F110 owners. I live in an apartment now which is why I sold my PB13-U and am looking towards a better use of space and something that won't have the police at my door -- my speakers are Paradigm Studio V.5 system...

Any input would be awesome...

Those of us with two or more F113's will tell you, yes, it makes a difference. One of the biggest differences is that it balances out the bass in the room more effectively, which to me is more important even then the additional headroom of two or more subs. I can not even tell where the subs are properly integrated and you can no longer localize and "find" the sound of your sub any longer with two or more. And, yup, the bass is just that much more open and relaxed at the same volume levels with more of them involved.

+1

I think oddeofile said it all. Adding the second F113 made a huge difference in bass response in my 2400 sq ft room.

I figured this would be the place to ask --- I have the opportunity to get a F110 for $1k off MSRP -- and was wondering about any impressions for F110 owners. I live in an apartment now which is why I sold my PB13-U and am looking towards a better use of space and something that won't have the police at my door -- my speakers are Paradigm Studio V.5 system...

Any input would be awesome...


Chopin, the F110 rolls of in the High 20's - if this is for just music, no big deal - but if your lookin for HT at all i would suggest you look towards the F112 instead....

+2

Best thing I did..

Have any of you guys heard the f113 and the f212 in the same room?

Have any of you guys heard the f113 and the f212 in the same room?

Haven't' heard the f112 & f113 at the same time in the same room but the general rule of thumb is to try and match as close as possible for dual subs, they're hard enough to integrate into your HT as it is. They probably are close enough though.

Haven't' heard the f112 & f113 at the same time in the same room but the general rule of thumb is to try and match as close as possible for dual subs, they're hard enough to integrate into your HT as it is. They probably are close enough though.
I understand. I was wondering how they compared though, whether the f212 would be a substantial upgrade from the f113. Seems like it should be, but I guess I'm not hearing that from anyone.

I have only heard [for prolonged periods] the F212 at trade shows. It is impressive.

I'd rather have two F113's for just a little more boot [$].

However if you want a killer single sub the F212 outta fill the bill!

Anyone bought a F113 from BAdgirl on Audiogon? Her feedback looks really promising.

She claims the unit she has come with warranty!

Yep, B-Girl and Theresa [not listing much these days] have been selling the same pair of subs for over a year...

I am on the fence about ordering an f212, I have multiple f113's as well as countless sealed subs using TC Sounds LMS-5400 drivers. Not I need any more displacement, simply for the heck of it.

I will decide after the Montreal audio show, as I want my Klipsch Palladium P39 speakers so bad.

Should make a mice center channel stand up front(f212).

Should make a mice center channel stand up front(f212).

I'd really like to see what that looks like.

I am on the fence about ordering an f212, I have multiple f113's as well as countless sealed subs using TC Sounds LMS-5400 drivers. Not I need any more displacement, simply for the heck of it.

I will decide after the Montreal audio show, as I want my Klipsch Palladium P39 speakers so bad.

Should make a mice center channel stand up front(f212).

Hey Ear,
haven't "seen" you around these parts for a while. Klipsch Palladium should be a sweeet speaker. Haven't heard it but certainly like it based on reviews and specs. My GTA posse will be at the Montreal show too. Looking forward to it. The Grande Utopias sounded amazing last year.

Hey Ear,
haven't "seen" you around these parts for a while. Klipsch Palladium should be a sweeet speaker. Haven't heard it but certainly like it based on reviews and specs. My GTA posse will be at the Montreal show too. Looking forward to it. The Grande Utopias sounded amazing last year.

Heard the Palladiums when they first came out - Mike Hurd was in town by me, and a Klipsch member invited us over for a Look and Listen....

Exceptionally good looking speakers truly downright gorgeous - sounded very nice, but it was hard to get a full perception of them - it was late and bedtime for his kids, so the levels were kept at a minimum... They never really got to stretch their legs so to speak....

3 x old school LaScalla's would be pretty bad ass for the LCR's!

3 x old school LaScalla's would be pretty bad ass for the LCR's!
That's what I've got! I am looking for a sub upgrade since the one I had over 10 years ago (CSW SW-1) is getting out performed.. Just would like it if the JL audio subs weren't so $$$$!

I've been extremely pleased with my F113, and will get another one when $$$ permits.

If permitted, here's an example:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1274382099&/JL-Audio-fathom-f113/pair

Moderators, if you feel this post is improper please delete. I have no affiliation with the sellers or Audiogon.

Lee

I am on the fence about ordering an f212, I have multiple f113's as well as countless sealed subs using TC Sounds LMS-5400 drivers. Not I need any more displacement, simply for the heck of it.

I will decide after the Montreal audio show, as I want my Klipsch Palladium P39 speakers so bad.

Should make a mice center channel stand up front(f212).

Are these speakers better than Monitor audio platinums PL300? http://www.monitoraudio.ca/products/platinum/pl300/specification

Wanted to thank those of you who helped me a few pages back -- placed an order today for a new F110 to be used in my apartment system with Paradigm Studio 60's v.5. I am very excited about getting this and seeing how it performs. JL's quality in fabrication and components is first rate and I look forward to this new sub...

It was a unfortunate moving into an apartment which called for me having to sell my PB13-Ultra but I know this little F110 will be more than enough to get me in trouble here in the apartment...:D

Are these speakers better than Monitor audio platinums PL300? http://www.monitoraudio.ca/products/platinum/pl300/specification


They are 2 different animals....

The PL300's are truly beautiful speakers as well, and the ribbons are darn nice, but I'll give the Palladiums the edge.... I know I don't have to tell The EAR they will require a boat load of power to get the most out of them...

With Specs like these...
POWER HANDLING 400W continuous / 1600W peak
They are def capable of keeping up with your wall of subs Arthur...

The Klipsch horn loaded tweeters require large amounts of power so they don't break up and get harsh...

If Money was no object I would love to have a set, heck even the P-38's or P-37 would be amazing IMO...

They are 2 different animals....

The PL300's are truly beautiful speakers as well, and the ribbons are darn nice, but I'll give the Palladiums the edge.... I know I don't have to tell The EAR they will require a boat load of power to get the most out of them...

With Specs like these...
POWER HANDLING 400W continuous / 1600W peak
They are def capable of keeping up with your wall of subs Arthur...

The Klipsch horn loaded tweeters require large amounts of power so they don't break up and get harsh...

If Money was no object I would love to have a set, heck even the P-38's or P-37 would be amazing IMO...

i will probably go for the moniotr audio pllatimuns but i will definitly go and listen to the palladiums

I see audioaficionado has a JL sale.
I bought one there last year, from the Dealer.

Sorry if its a repost..

Can anyone with an F113 recommend a good surge protector? Just want to make sure I'm not choking the sub....

The official suggested and supported surge protector for use with the f113 or f212 or G213 is the Surgex SA20.

For an f112 or 110 you can use the SA15.

Their page is here.
http://www.surgex.com/products/sa20.html

Notice that the model 20 comes with a 'real' 20A plug... therefore it is suggested that your wiring correctly accomodate this; that means for the cleanest, lowest impedance connection, a hospital grade, isolated ground outlet; correctly wired with a pulled hot, pulled neutral, and pulled ground, all #10 THHN STRANDED, correctly wrapped around the screw terminals.

A 79 cent outlet with solid #14 pushed into the holes in the back just isn't the greatest thing for a powerful sub.

Please bear in mind that a 113 may under certain operating conditions, draw about 19A from a 120V outlet.

If you need any additional info, pm or email me directly.
Barry

Well, I ordered the missing twin to my single F113 today. Looking foward to playing around with two subs. I was going to order two for three total, but will see what two sound like. I'm pretty happy with the single as is!

Just curious as to what did we do with our equipment before surge surpressors?:rolleyes: In the 30 years of owning high end audio equipment I have yet to destroy a piece of gear with a spike running thru my system! If there is a storm approaching I just unplug my electronics (all of them) when the lightning storm passes through. If the spike is powerful enough the supressor won't handle it anyway would it? If this were the case wouldn't there be a long history of stories about how the equipment was destroyed.

Just curious as to what did we do with our equipment before surge surpressors?:rolleyes: In the 30 years of owning high end audio equipment I have yet to destroy a piece of gear with a spike running thru my system! If there is a storm approaching I just unplug my electronics (all of them) when the lightning storm passes through. If the spike is powerful enough the supressor won't handle it anyway would it? If this were the case wouldn't there be a long history of stories about how the equipment was destroyed.

FYI....A surge occurs when the power line voltage goes higher than nominal, and stays there longer than 10 milliseconds.

Although many people think lightning causes most surges, in reality they’re one of the less common causes. In fact, about 80% of all power surges are created by electronic equipment inside your home (air conditioners, refrigerators) because such high-powered devices use a lot of energy to turn on/off, and as mentioned earlier, can gradually be worn down over time. You might be surprised to know that only 15% or less come from unexpected lightning strikes. Other sources of power surges include phone & cable lines, faulty home wiring, utility equipment problems, and downed power lines. The wires and transformers that bring power to your home or office is quite complex, having many possible failure points, and many potential errors that can start an uneven power flow. As mentioned, power surges are unavoidable, especially when you consider other unpredictable factors: weather, animals, autos hitting poles, etc.

Can these surges cause damage?
Yes. Today’s computerized appliances and electronics can be damaged or destroyed by over-voltage surges or spikes. This includes computer equipment and peripherals; electronic equipment such as stereos, TVs, and VCR’s; household appliances including washers, dryers, refrigerators, dishwashers, microwave ovens, food processors, blenders, can openers; and other electronic devices such as fax machines, telephones, and answering machines. Large appliances like air conditioners or refrigerators are less susceptible, but can be damaged as well.


There are several reasons why surge suppressors have become such an important issue: today’s computer chips in electronic equipment are far more dense than they were even a few years ago, and subsequently, much more sensitive to even slight surges. Clock speeds, or operating frequencies, have increased and reached the frequency range of high-voltage transients. Slower processors ignored them, but high-speed processors may actually interpret a transient as a command sequence. Most homes and offices are using more pieces of equipment that draw electricity than ever before. Each time an electric device is turned on, transient voltages may be generated. More microprocessor technology is being used than ever before.

Just curious as to what did we do with our equipment before surge surpressors?:rolleyes: In the 30 years of owning high end audio equipment I have yet to destroy a piece of gear with a spike running thru my system! If there is a storm approaching I just unplug my electronics (all of them) when the lightning storm passes through. If the spike is powerful enough the supressor won't handle it anyway would it? If this were the case wouldn't there be a long history of stories about how the equipment was destroyed.
I lost several pieces of equipment last summer when lightning hit a tree in my yard, traveled through the underground electric dog fence, and blew that plug apart under the house. It killed 1 port on my router and scrambled my Control4 controller.

I actually had the router and controller on a surge protector at the time, maybe that's what allowed them to be just maimed instead of completely destroyed. Or maybe it did nothing.

We were on vacation at the time. I guess I just don't have the diligence to unplug all my electronics when I go on vacation. Plus, I still like to record my shows with TiVo while I'm away, so I wouldn't want to anyhow.

Totally off the Fathom discusson, but if you flip the breaker, is it the same a unplugging?

FYI....A surge occurs when the power line voltage goes higher than nominal, and stays there longer than 10 milliseconds.

Although many people think lightning causes most surges, in reality they’re one of the less common causes. In fact, about 80% of all power surges are created by electronic equipment inside your home (air conditioners, refrigerators) because such high-powered devices use a lot of energy to turn on/off, and as mentioned earlier, can gradually be worn down over time. You might be surprised to know that only 15% or less come from unexpected lightning strikes. Other sources of power surges include phone & cable lines, faulty home wiring, utility equipment problems, and downed power lines. The wires and transformers that bring power to your home or office is quite complex, having many possible failure points, and many potential errors that can start an uneven power flow. As mentioned, power surges are unavoidable, especially when you consider other unpredictable factors: weather, animals, autos hitting poles, etc.

Can these surges cause damage?
Yes. Today’s computerized appliances and electronics can be damaged or destroyed by over-voltage surges or spikes. This includes computer equipment and peripherals; electronic equipment such as stereos, TVs, and VCR’s; household appliances including washers, dryers, refrigerators, dishwashers, microwave ovens, food processors, blenders, can openers; and other electronic devices such as fax machines, telephones, and answering machines. Large appliances like air conditioners or refrigerators are less susceptible, but can be damaged as well.


There are several reasons why surge suppressors have become such an important issue: today’s computer chips in electronic equipment are far more dense than they were even a few years ago, and subsequently, much more sensitive to even slight surges. Clock speeds, or operating frequencies, have increased and reached the frequency range of high-voltage transients. Slower processors ignored them, but high-speed processors may actually interpret a transient as a command sequence. Most homes and offices are using more pieces of equipment that draw electricity than ever before. Each time an electric device is turned on, transient voltages may be generated. More microprocessor technology is being used than ever before.

Nice explanation:)

Nice explanation:)

Unikely that getech wrote it it. More likely that he plagiarized it.

Edit:
http://www.opalco.com/power-information/surge-protection/faq-surge-protection/

:rolleyes:

Nice explanation:)

Thanks Khakimon!

Unikely that getech wrote it it. More likely that he plagiarized it.

Edit:
http://www.opalco.com/power-information/surge-protection/faq-surge-protection/

:rolleyes:

Craig, glad you got something from my post. Learning something is always good for you.:)

Do they sell 220V versions? or What is recommended should I get a F113 to run dual voltage, surge protection, and Power conditioning?

Craig, glad you got something from my post. Learning something is always good for you.:)
I did learn 2 things from your post. First, I learned that it is very easy to find the source document just by copying and pasting the first line of the text into a Google search.

Second, I learned that you have no conscience about plagiarizing someone else work and posting it as your own, without reference or credit to the original author. As such, you have lost even more credibility. Since you had so little to begin with, this leaves you with a balance of "Zero" credibility. :rolleyes:

Craig

Anyone bought a F113 from BAdgirl on Audiogon? Her feedback looks really promising.

She claims the unit she has come with warranty!

I can vouch for Badgirl (his name is Andy actually). I just purchased a Martin Logan Descent-i from him. I got the sub 4 days after paymen, although communication was not the best.

Every post following this one that's directed at another member instead of the topic will result in that member's removal.

They are 2 different animals....

The PL300's are truly beautiful speakers as well, and the ribbons are darn nice, but I'll give the Palladiums the edge.... I know I don't have to tell The EAR they will require a boat load of power to get the most out of them...

With Specs like these...
POWER HANDLING 400W continuous / 1600W peak
They are def capable of keeping up with your wall of subs Arthur...

The Klipsch horn loaded tweeters require large amounts of power so they don't break up and get harsh...

If Money was no object I would love to have a set, heck even the P-38's or P-37 would be amazing IMO...

To my surprise, the Palladium P39 were being demoed at the Montreal hifi show. Didn't sound too bad. A verrrry different animal from the PL300 though. Each has strengths and weaknesses.

Totally off the Fathom discusson, but if you flip the breaker, is it the same a unplugging?

No.

The key is you want your equipment completely isolated from your electrical system during a lightning storm.

Heck - alot of people have a sat dish or Local HD antennas or Cable hooked up - a lightning strike could easily travel through that route as well and surge through there just as easily.

Hey guys:

I'm hoping someone may be able to provide me with some insight regarding an issue with my fathom.

A couple of weeks ago, I am watching the movie U-571 (on DVD, not the blu-ray). And I'm watching the depth charge scenes. Enjoying the audio enough to replay some of the scenes. I have a Denon AVR 3808CI and I had the volume at -27db. Nothing heavy.

But as the movie gets toward the end something doesn't sound right. And I am not versed enough in audio to know the definitions of words, in descriptive terms, so, this may be the wrong description, but the bass sounded "bloated", or "distorted". And as the credits rolled at the end of the movie it still sounded this way as the soundtrack music played in the background. Maybe even what might be called "muddy". But not enough to be sure if something was off. But enough to have me scratching my head wondering if something was off.

The next day I was playing music and the sub didn't seem to be kicking in. At this point I thought something was wrong. So I used the demo function on the sub to test it and it was OK. So I thought it was the connections. Like the signal reaching the sub was not strong enough.

So I shut the power off on the sub and disconnected all cables and power cords. And then I reconnected all cables and power cords and turned the power back on. Still the sub was off, i.e. weak.

But over time things seemed to start meshing better. So I thought, everything back to normal.

Tonight, I came home and put on Depeche Mode, Violator. The DVD disk with the 5.1 audio track that is part of a double package for that CD . And,(again not being completely familiar with the terminology), there was a lot of vibration and the bass sounded bloated and distorted or maybe the appropriate word is "feedback".

Scratched my head, Not sure what to do. On a lark, I moved the switch for Ref/Variable (The volume switch for the farhom). And this made a difference. When the switch is in "Ref" I get boomy, distorted bass. When I move the switch to "Variable", I get slight bass (but seems weak). Not sure why this would make a difference because I don't change the volume knob on the fathom. But switching this switch makes a big difference.

So, short of packing up this monstrosity and taking to the dealer. Or paying a chunk of change to have the or technician come out to investigate or test the sub, I'm not sure what else to do.

Seems like this issue started back when I was playing U-571. But -27db on the Denon does not sound like I was pushing the sub too much.

Would appreciate any help in troubleshooting this situation.

(Initially, after the U-571 DVD, I also noticed this when playing vinyl. I had gotten an ol' TT up and running and it is in my component rack AndI thought it was because maybe the TT was too close to the sub. The TT is about 1.5 feet from the fathom, which is an f112 BTW. But I never had this problem before and now it is happening on a CD).

Bottom line seems to be the sub is out of whack and I am either getting too much low end or not enough.

Thank you AVS Forum members.

Hey guys:

I'm hoping someone may be able to provide me with some insight regarding an issue with my fathom.

A couple of weeks ago, I am watching the movie U-571 (on DVD, not the blu-ray). And I'm watching the depth charge scenes. Enjoying the audio enough to replay some of the scenes. I have a Denon AVR 3808CI and I had the volume at -27db. Nothing heavy.

But as the movie gets toward the end something doesn't sound right. And I am not versed enough in audio to know the definitions of words, in descriptive terms, so, this may be the wrong description, but the bass sounded "bloated", or "distorted". And as the credits rolled at the end of the movie it still sounded this way as the soundtrack music played in the background. Maybe even what might be called "muddy". But not enough to be sure if something was off. But enough to have me scratching my head wondering if something was off.

The next day I was playing music and the sub didn't seem to be kicking in. At this point I thought something was wrong. So I used the demo function on the sub to test it and it was OK. So I thought it was the connections. Like the signal reaching the sub was not strong enough.

So I shut the power off on the sub and disconnected all cables and power cords. And then I reconnected all cables and power cords and turned the power back on. Still the sub was off, i.e. weak.

But over time things seemed to start meshing better. So I thought, everything back to normal.

Tonight, I came home and put on Depeche Mode, Violator. The DVD disk with the 5.1 audio track that is part of a double package for that CD . And,(again not being completely familiar with the terminology), there was a lot of vibration and the bass sounded bloated and distorted or maybe the appropriate word is "feedback".

Scratched my head, Not sure what to do. On a lark, I moved the switch for Ref/Variable (The volume switch for the farhom). And this made a difference. When the switch is in "Ref" I get boomy, distorted bass. When I move the switch to "Variable", I get slight bass (but seems weak). Not sure why this would make a difference because I don't change the volume knob on the fathom. But switching this switch makes a big difference.

So, short of packing up this monstrosity and taking to the dealer. Or paying a chunk of change to have the or technician come out to investigate or test the sub, I'm not sure what else to do.

Seems like this issue started back when I was playing U-571. But -27db on the Denon does not sound like I was pushing the sub too much.

Would appreciate any help in troubleshooting this situation.

(Initially, after the U-571 DVD, I also noticed this when playing vinyl. I had gotten an ol' TT up and running and it is in my component rack AndI thought it was because maybe the TT was too close to the sub. The TT is about 1.5 feet from the fathom, which is an f112 BTW. But I never had this problem before and now it is happening on a CD).

Bottom line seems to be the sub is out of whack and I am either getting too much low end or not enough.

Thank you AVS Forum members.

The F112 has limiters that limit the amount of output and they are hard-filtered below about 18 Hz. The U571 movie has some depth charge scenes that will tax any subwoofer, but the F112 should not be damaged by those scenes because of the limiters and filters.

The Ref/Variable is a switch that engages or disengages the actual volume control. If it's in the Ref position, it outputs the signal directly from the pre/pro. If it's in the Variable position, it runs through the Master Volume control. Try putting the sub in Variable and increasing the volume.

It could be that your pre/pro, (receiver) is sending too high a signal and overdriving the amp inputs. What is the subwoofer trim level in your pre/pro/receiver? If it's higher than "0", try turning it down and recalibrate your system.

If those "fixes" don't work, you may have a defective sub, in which case you'll need it repaired. JL's CS is very good, so contact them and see what they suggest. Barry Ober is their CS guy and he can be reached at: http://www.soundoctor.com/

Craig

Thanks Craig.

BTW. It may not have anything to do with the movie, U-571. I'm assuming a cause and effect relationship that I recognized could be coincidental. Because -27db on the Denon 3808CI isn't even close to reference level or being loud.

Another interesting thing I had with the fathom is that maybe about a year ago, it seemed to lose the signal. I followed the same troubleshooting procedure that I posted above. No signall. Decided to replace the cable as I thought this would be the quickest, most straightforward next step. I replaced the cables and the sub worked fine. Then, out of curiousity, I put the original cables back on (the ones that I thought were defective and needed to be replaced becasue there was no signal from the sub).

And the sub worked fine. No explanation for this but I returned the new cables to the dealer and kept the prior cables running and had no problems with the sub until the current situation.

Also, BTW. Per the JL Audio manual, a suggested troubleshooting step is the press the DEMO button on the front faceplat to check the sub. They note that if the DEMO is successful the the internal circuitry of the sub is operable. Above, in your reply to my post you note that if your suggested troubleshooting steps are not effective then I have a defective sub. This seems contradictory to JL Audio's comments regarding the DEMO. Or, can the internal circuitry of the sub be operable and the sub still be defective? i.e., are these 2 separate issues?

Ese,

You might also try cleaning all your connection contacts periodically. It is possible you lost some conductivity. I tend to clean mine about every 6 months or so, others I know do it quarterly. Some like Caig Pro Gold, others different cleaners. I have used and prefer Kontak which I obtain from Galen Carol Audio in TX. I have found it leaves no residue and is superb at cleaning contacts for maximum signal passage. Contacts create a diode effect which over time builds up with dust, oxidation from the air, etc. You would not believe the black stuff that can come off these contacts over time when using a good cleaner. After cleaning I immediately note an improvement in all facets of the sonic envelope from overall low level details, clarity, sound stage perspective, dynamics, transient speed and speed and clarity in the Fathom's response (I have two).

Give it a whirl. Worth about $40 in cleaner to do so. Use good cotton swabs. PM me if you would like additional info.

Thanks Craig.

BTW. It may not have anything to do with the movie, U-571. I'm assuming a cause and effect relationship that I recognized could be coincidental. Because -27db on the Denon 3808CI isn't even close to reference level or being loud.

Another interesting thing I had with the fathom is that maybe about a year ago, it seemed to lose the signal. I followed the same troubleshooting procedure that I posted above. No signall. Decided to replace the cable as I thought this would be the quickest, most straightforward next step. I replaced the cables and the sub worked fine. Then, out of curiousity, I put the original cables back on (the ones that I thought were defective and needed to be replaced becasue there was no signal from the sub).

And the sub worked fine. No explanation for this but I returned the new cables to the dealer and kept the prior cables running and had no problems with the sub until the current situation.

Also, BTW. Per the JL Audio manual, a suggested troubleshooting step is the press the DEMO button on the front faceplat to check the sub. They note that if the DEMO is successful the the internal circuitry of the sub is operable. Above, in your reply to my post you note that if your suggested troubleshooting steps are not effective then I have a defective sub. This seems contradictory to JL Audio's comments regarding the DEMO. Or, can the internal circuitry of the sub be operable and the sub still be defective? i.e., are these 2 separate issues?
The DEMO button will, as you said, test the sub. If it's fully functional, it should work. If it is indeed fully functional, then the problem is likely to be in your setup. Check the things I suggested. Check all your Bass Management settings in your pre/pro/receiver. Also, check your cables and connections as suggested by oddeofile.

Craig

Thanks guys.

I will work on this this weekend.

I live in a country where there is no Fathom dealer. As such, I am thinking of selling my Fathom 113 while it is still working, as shipping will make it prohibitively expensive to repair. What do people expect is a typical life of a subwoofer in a non-smoking, normal home environment?

P.S., I can't believe this threat has died. The Fathom is still an awesome sub! But man is it heavy!

If the Fathom was to die, its very unlikely that you'd be shipping it back for repair. The more likely senario is that you'd be shipping the amp back and forth. Possibly the driver.

I don't know that anyone can say how long it'll normally last provided its not abused.

If the Fathom was to die, its very unlikely that you'd be shipping it back for repair. The more likely senario is that you'd be shipping the amp back and forth. Possibly the driver.

I don't know that anyone can say how long it'll normally last provided its not abused.

Unless their policy has changed JL requires shipping the entire unit to them or a dealer for repair. The Fathoms are not designed for owner field repair/replacement of the driver or amp. They provide a very robust shipping box and packing material that makes that possible.

I live in a country where there is no Fathom dealer. As such, I am thinking of selling my Fathom 113 while it is still working, as shipping will make it prohibitively expensive to repair. What do people expect is a typical life of a subwoofer in a non-smoking, normal home environment?

P.S., I can't believe this threat has died. The Fathom is still an awesome sub! But man is it heavy!

I have a pair of JL Audio Gotham subs and at 47 years old, I could see them lasting most of the rest of my life!

I would think the Fathom 113 should last a long while as well.

JL subs are very tough!

Agreed. these babies are built like tanks and to take immense amounts of volume. If you don't abuse them, I see no reason why they should not last a very long time, indeed. Easily, 10-15 years or so, I should think.

P.S., I can't believe this threat has died. The Fathom is still an awesome sub! But man is it heavy!

Many things have died or faded with this economy, take the high end surround sound processors [SSP] for example.

JL was never the loudest [SPL] or boom [freq response] for the buck to start. However it is considered by many the best small footprint sealed sub enclosure product made for quite some time.

There are larger and ugly looking alternatives with better performance in some areas but not the total package like the F113.

Just chiming in, I still love my four f113's , they sound great. :p

Just I purchased BIGGER toys , and will not part with my "little" f113's.

Fun sub, very small,quite potent and build quality is tops.

So many more competitors online now. Fathoms while still a "musically correct" sub still lacks the Wow factor (which it never did have) compared to so many more less expensive and better products....ie. Submersives and the god almighty Danley subs..Fathoms now have the moniker the Mel Gibson of subs? Heck, I don't know....so many great choices! Do your own research and try to form your own opinions!

Cheers!

Just chiming in, I still love my four f113's , they sound great. :p

Just I purchased BIGGER toys , and will not part with my "little" f113's.

Fun sub, very small,quite potent and build quality is tops.

What did you get? :cool: I still enjoy my JL's but always looking for more output and better performance... :)

Hey all! *waving* I'm new to this thread and I did several searches but, did not find a definitive answer to my question. I have two f113s on the way and I am trying to figure out the proper way to connect them to my system. I have the Integra 80.1 which has dual sub outputs and will be calibrating with Audyssey Pro. What I'm unsure of is, do I connect them as left and right, mono and mono (my guess) or master and slave? I would appreciate your advice on this and anything else that you think I should know. Thanks.

Hey all! *waving* I'm new to this thread and I did several searches but, did not find a definitive answer to my question. I have two f113s on the way and I am trying to figure out the proper way to connect them to my system. I have the Integra 80.1 which has dual sub outputs and will be calibrating with Audyssey Pro. What I'm unsure of is, do I connect them as left and right, mono and mono (my guess) or master and slave? I would appreciate your advice on this and anything else that you think I should know. Thanks.

Steve,

You can actually connect them master/slave or master/master. I have them connected the latter choice. I just changed my processor settings from 2 sub mono to LR stereo subs connected using balanced XLR cables. Experiment you'll find it rather fun.

Absolutely. Well said. They are a lot of fun to experiment with. Master/Slave works well only if the subs are in an environment where they have balanced locations relative to the listener, so I am told from JL sources. However, try and work what is best for you! I have mine run directly from my reference receiver that allows for two subs direct from the output, each with their own volume distance and level settings, etc. on a master/master set up and it is superb. One thing about the JL's is they are extremely fast for a sub and offer superb bass tone and detail so they can integrate well, and offer immediate noticeable differences on settings.

BTW, wondering if anyone here has used the Auralex Subdude or GRAMMA stands for their JL's? From what I am told, they are superb for really isolating the sub from the floor allowing for even greater impact, slam, etc. Just curious.

Absolutely. Well said. They are a lot of fun to experiment with. Master/Slave works well only if the subs are in an environment where they have balanced locations relative to the listener, so I am told from JL sources. However, try and work what is best for you! I have mine run directly from my reference receiver that allows for two subs direct from the output, each with their own volume distance and level settings, etc. on a master/master set up and it is superb. One thing about the JL's is they are extremely fast for a sub and offer superb bass tone and detail so they can integrate well, and offer immediate noticeable differences on settings.

BTW, wondering if anyone here has used the Auralex Subdude or GRAMMA stands for their JL's? From what I am told, they are superb for really isolating the sub from the floor allowing for even greater impact, slam, etc. Just curious.



I'm curious about that also. I am on a raised foundation with wooden floors of course.:D

Steve,

You can actually connect them master/slave or master/master. I have them connected the latter choice. I just changed my processor settings from 2 sub mono to LR stereo subs connected using balanced XLR cables. Experiment you'll find it rather fun.

Absolutely. Well said. They are a lot of fun to experiment with. Master/Slave works well only if the subs are in an environment where they have balanced locations relative to the listener, so I am told from JL sources. However, try and work what is best for you! I have mine run directly from my reference receiver that allows for two subs direct from the output, each with their own volume distance and level settings, etc. on a master/master set up and it is superb. One thing about the JL's is they are extremely fast for a sub and offer superb bass tone and detail so they can integrate well, and offer immediate noticeable differences on settings.

BTW, wondering if anyone here has used the Auralex Subdude or GRAMMA stands for their JL's? From what I am told, they are superb for really isolating the sub from the floor allowing for even greater impact, slam, etc. Just curious.

Thanks for the info!

What did you get? :cool: I still enjoy my JL's but always looking for more output and better performance... :)

One wall of TC Sounds LMS-Ultra sealed subs and another of Exodus sealed subs.With 18 pro power amps(QSC PL380's,PLX2's and Crown iTech,XTI's) around 70kW RMS at the minimum. :p

The foundation is bottomless,knows no limits(human ears give out way before this setup does) and...clean clean clean and defined are the operative words here. I compared to Paradigm's Signature subs,JL's you name it. TheWALL bests all with ease, At a price of course.

I think TheEAR has hit TheWALL, sub humanly speaking of course. ;)

One wall of TC Sounds LMS-Ultra sealed subs and another of Exodus sealed subs.With 18 pro power amps(QSC PL380's,PLX2's and Crown iTech,XTI's) around 70kW RMS at the minimum. :p

The foundation is bottomless,knows no limits(human ears give out way before this setup does) and...clean clean clean and defined are the operative words here. I compared to Paradigm's Signature subs,JL's you name it. TheWALL bests all with ease, At a price of course.

I think TheEAR has hit TheWALL, sub humanly speaking of course. ;)

I would really enjoy seeing some pics of that setup.:eek:

Sounds like maximum overdrive over kill, actually. I guess if you like the wind sucked out of you at each beat, cool. However, photos would be most interesting to view.

I'm curious about that also. I am on a raised foundation with wooden floors of course.:D

Just got mine on Friday. Work great. I highly recommend them. The GRAMMA sands fit well under the 113 subs. No rocking, etc. Bottom end is even tighter, faster, better integrated, and just perfect now. Watching the Book of Eli Sat night was a revelation. Explosions were so perfectly integrated and the air movement really was improved. Much of what is perceived as the extreme bottom end is really muck caused by the room, floor and ceiling interaction with the sub. Reducing that in the equation improves the bass. However, I upped the gain a tad on the subs about 1 db more and it really kicks well now without the bloat. For the price of the GRAMMA or Subdude, well worth the entry fee. If you are upstairs or have a floating wooden floor, these really are a steal.

Well, I have joined the Club!

http://forum.blu-ray.com/picture.php?albumid=161&pictureid=5563

http://forum.blu-ray.com/picture.php?albumid=161&pictureid=5562

The magazine articles are TRUE! These subs are fantastic!

Only physically LARGER subwoofers can surpass these. For there size and quality there is no other.

Highly Recommended for the BASS HEADs out there, otherwise WAY overkill!

Bill

How do you like the air pressure? :D

What kind of deal did you get on those 2?

As a former owner of two JL Fathom F113's, I was curious if anyone has heard any chatter about JL either coming out with or revamping there current line-up.

These are still some of the best subs out there, but I think some of the competition has either caught up or passed JL in performance.

Has anyone heard of new subs coming from JL, and do you think JL needs to come out with something new.

This thread was all the rage a couple of years ago and has died down to nearly nothing over the last year. I think JL really needs something new to get some excitement stirring about it products and name.

As a former owner of two JL Fathom F113's, I was curious if anyone has heard any chatter about JL either coming out with or revamping there current line-up.

These are still some of the best subs out there, but I think some of the competition has either caught up or passed JL in performance.

Has anyone heard of new subs coming from JL, and do you think JL needs to come out with something new.

This thread was all the rage a couple of years ago and has died down to nearly nothing over the last year. I think JL really needs something new to get some excitement stirring about it products and name.

Ha, funny you say that..... as soon as I saw this thread come up to the top I was thinking exactly that. I agree 100%. Everyone else has really stepped up their game to start running the JL's quite a bit lower on the totem pole.

They are great performers for sure but many other products out there that can and do exceed their performance. I love my F112, but I just pulled the trigger to replace it with the new Submersive HP in my bedroom.

Its been an exciting year for me in the bass dept., with my new DIY subs finally coming together too.

As a former owner of two JL Fathom F113's, I was curious if anyone has heard any chatter about JL either coming out with or revamping there current line-up.

These are still some of the best subs out there, but I think some of the competition has either caught up or passed JL in performance.

Has anyone heard of new subs coming from JL, and do you think JL needs to come out with something new.

This thread was all the rage a couple of years ago and has died down to nearly nothing over the last year. I think JL really needs something new to get some excitement stirring about it products and name.

I always think the samething. These subs are amazing and there should be no reason why this thread should always be lost. Look at the SVS thread for comparison. But these are kind of expensive and people want a new product after all these years. I tell you one thing though. If the F113 is $3900 and were expecting a major improvment with the F114 and 15 (I know its just a guess model name) that means were looking at something more than $5000. And more.

Thats the thing that scares people away from these subs.

Yeah, the JLs are expensive. But damn, they rock. These subs not only excel at movie soundtracks, they're a very musical sub too.

Like Charlton Heston once said, "you'll have to pry my 113s from my cold, dead hands.";)

How do you like the air pressure? :D

What kind of deal did you get on those 2?

I got a great deal, significantly less than I expected.

The dynamic or contrast from soft to loud to soft for music and movies really is what makes listening fun.

I always think the samething. These subs are amazing and there should be no reason why this thread should always be lost. Look at the SVS thread for comparison. But these are kind of expensive and people want a new product after all these years. I tell you one thing though. If the F113 is $3900 and were expecting a major improvment with the F114 and 15 (I know its just a guess model name) that means were looking at something more than $5000. And more.

Thats the thing that scares people away from these subs.

Well velodyne has be able to stick around with the same old same old for some time. These subwoofers are like what vintage amps are like to the old timers.. They will only be surpassed if some one re invents small subwoofers. (I consider these small)

Well velodyne has be able to stick around with the same old same old for some time. These subwoofers are like what vintage amps are like to the old timers.. They will only be surpassed if some one re invents small subwoofers. (I consider these small)


Kinda hard to inhibit the laws of physics.......

I always think the samething. These subs are amazing and there should be no reason why this thread should always be lost. Look at the SVS thread for comparison. But these are kind of expensive and people want a new product after all these years. I tell you one thing though. If the F113 is $3900 and were expecting a major improvment with the F114 and 15 (I know its just a guess model name) that means were looking at something more than $5000. And more.

Thats the thing that scares people away from these subs.


I agree with you that they are expensive and if JL was smart they'ed come out with a better sub (F115 or F116 whatever) and actually make it less expensive or at least keep the retail price the same.

JL has been in the home market long enough now that I'm sure they are much more efficient now then when they entered the home subwoofer market. They have the manufacturing part in place and I'd say a fairly strong dealer network up and running. When the original Fathoms came out all of this (expense) had to be put together and organized. This time around it's all ready there.

This is how I see it.

Fathom F110 = Keep it and add a better ARO system something similar to
Paradigms PBK.

Fathom F112 = Keep it and add a better ARO system something similar to
Paradigms PBK. Lower price $300.00

Fathom F113 = Replace it with a new model (F115 or F116) and keep the
price the same as the F113 was. Add Better ARO system.

Fathom F212 = Keep it and add better ARO system. Keep price the same.

Gotham G213 = Replace it with a Gotham (G215 or G216) add better ARO
system, and for god sakes lower the price to $9000.00


I also think they should come up with a cheaper line of subs as well. Something that would use a less sophisticated driver, but still be able to do well.

If I dare say a movie only subwoofer.

[QUOTE=Warpdrv;19017627]
They are great performers for sure but many other products out there that can and do exceed their performance. I love my F112, but I just pulled the trigger to replace it with the new Submersive HP in my bedroom.
QUOTE]

I just got two Submersive HP in last week. They do put out massive low end and are well built, but for my ears and my room, my two F113 worked better for me. For movies the Submersives are wonderful, but when I switch to music, my ears like the F113.

Too bad Seaton Sound has no return or demo policy, that was an expensive test! Time to list them. Long live the F113.

I just got two Submersive HP in last week. They do put out massive low end and are well built, but for my ears and my room, my two F113 worked better for me. For movies the Submersives are wonderful, but when I switch to music, my ears like the F113.

Too bad Seaton Sound has no return or demo policy, that was an expensive test! Time to list them. Long live the F113.[/QUOTE]


Get ready to have a can of WOOP A$$ opened up on you for making such blasphemous statements. :eek: Those Submersive owners are a rough bunch (Seaton Submafia) when you start calling them out like that.

[QUOTE=ironcorn;19018802]


Get ready to have a can of WOOP A$$ opened up on you for making such blasphemous statements. :eek: Those Submersive owners are a rough bunch (Seaton Submafia) when you start calling them out like that.

...but you're on the JL thread. Here, he's received well.

[QUOTE=Warpdrv;19017627]
For movies the Submersives are wonderful, but when I switch to music, my ears like the F113.



Not totally clear on your statement. Are you saying that the Submersives had the edge on HT or about the same as the F113s??

Just an FYI, in the back of my mind, I can't help but think that a dual opposed driver sub would contribute to overhang (bad for music, maybe good for HT) as you have a delay coming out of the second drive as it reflects off of the back wall. If placed in a corner with each driver hitting a side wall, you might avoid that but then that implementation wouldn't help those of us who don't have corner walls convenient. Then you've got the whole corner loading thing to deal with.

I know the Submersive has a huge following and for good reason. The SubM had the edge for impact when watching movies. I also mostly listen at reasonable levels, I’m not talking max SPL or anything. But, for my room and my set up, the F113 had a “cleaner” sound to my ears which I could determine with music. If I had more elaborate EQ capability the table might turn, but I’m limited to REW to determine placement, distance setting etc… and the EQ in my Anthem D2v.

Not totally clear on your statement. Are you saying that the Submersives had the edge on HT or about the same as the F113s??

Just an FYI, in the back of my mind, I can't help but think that a dual opposed driver sub would contribute to overhang (bad for music, maybe good for HT) as you have a delay coming out of the second drive as it reflects off of the back wall. If placed in a corner with each driver hitting a side wall, you might avoid that but then that implementation wouldn't help those of us who don't have corner walls convenient. Then you've got the whole corner loading thing to deal with.


Not sure how my name keeps getting plastered in there....
the Fathoms are not entirely the most efficient drivers.... have some excellent power and punch, output... Submersives are more efficient and smoother. I'm not sure if there is a correlation between those differences, but I look forward to comparing the F112 to the Submersive when I get it, in my 1700^3 bedroom.

For my great room I was shooting for sealed, but nothing out there could touch it, so DIY was the only way to go... The XLerators !! Nothing can touch these things period... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1266665

If I had more elaborate EQ capability the table might turn, but I’m limited to REW to determine placement, distance setting etc… and the EQ in my Anthem D2v.

I'm running the D2v and use REW with the DCX2496. I get spectacular results with my final ARC measurements & my four subs in room after EQing the subs and taking the strain off ARC's processing. I highly recommend this combination.

Can anyone provide the procedure for this? Is this referring to a simple Y cable splitting the signal to the pair of F113's or is there a specific Master/Master procedure. This was was mentioned in one of Kal's reviews and I read it somewhere else. Not sure if you can daisy chain a pair of 113's and set them both as master as well.

Thanks guys.

Tony

Can anyone provide the procedure for this? Is this referring to a simple Y cable splitting the signal to the pair of F113's or is there a specific Master/Master procedure. This was was mentioned in one of Kal's reviews and I read it somewhere else. Not sure if you can daisy chain a pair of 113's and set them both as master as well.

Thanks guys.

Tony

Both subs are connected independently in the Master configuration.I originally used an RCA Y splitter to achieve this. I eventually switched to two XLR cables to each subwoofer. Daisy chaining is the Master/slave setup, and you can use the calibration/ARO off of one sub calibrated to control the other unit. Calibrate both subs seperately when using the "master/master setup. I have tried both ways of connection and left it configured as master/master in my system.

I eventually switched to two XLR cables to each subwoofer.

How did manage this? I assume you are taking advantage of the multiple sub outs in your processor? You have the Classe, right?

How did manage this? I assume you are taking advantage of the multiple sub outs in your processor? You have the Classe, right?

Yes I have the Fathoms connected via sub1 out and Aux 2 out balanced on the SSP-800.Before obtaining the Classe SSP-800, I originally had the subs connected to a Denon 3808 using the "Y splitter and two RCA cables. Master/master setup requires two seperate cables run to the two subs. I ran the ARO using the same microphone for both subs.

Owners of JL Audio Fathoms, what do you think?

http://a.imageshack.us/img227/8657/27751774.th.jpg (http://img227.imageshack.us/i/27751774.jpg/)

http://a.imageshack.us/img227/1117/27602676.th.jpg (http://img227.imageshack.us/i/27602676.jpg/)

How's your back? Hoisting them in place- how many helpers did you have?

It's called where in the heck is my 18 y/o son when I needed him to be home!;) I usually end doing it by myself anyway. Just finished moving two Levinson amps to place stands under them. I guess my back is doing just fine. These are stands that have just started being produced by Sound Anchors. More info if needed is available thru the audio aficionado website. And no, it's not my website.

Owners of JL Audio Fathoms, what do you think?

http://a.imageshack.us/img227/8657/27751774.th.jpg (http://img227.imageshack.us/i/27751774.jpg/)

http://a.imageshack.us/img227/1117/27602676.th.jpg (http://img227.imageshack.us/i/27602676.jpg/)

Looks sharp!

Part of the magic of the JL F212 sub is that the drivers are stacked vertically -- that is, the 2nd driver is "off the floor".
If you had 2 x 112's and put them next to each other they sound one way; when you put one on top of the other they sound a different way.

Most people put subs on the floor in the corner because everyone else does it or seems to. Most people express that as "corner gain". Well there is no amplifier; there is no "gain". What you do have is the MOST EFFICIENT COUPLING at the lowest frequencies because the 2 walls and the floor are acting like 3 sides of a horn.

When a sub is in the middle of a wall (still on the floor) you have the LEAST efficient coupling. The sound leaves the driver, goes out in all directions, hits the opposite walls, folds back and cancels, somewhat. If the sub were actually in the middle of the wall and heightwise as well, the bass would just about disappear, except for the nearfield pressure zone.

Art Noxon at ASC has a superb series of articles about this here:
http://www.asc-home-theater.com/ht-articles.htm

For those people most interested in JUST HT, (not necessarily 2-channel bizness, more about that in a bit) I suggest IF POSSIBLE you simply couple the sub(s) to the room and therefore TO YOUR LISTENING POSITION as well as you can, and then and only then after you are satisfied with the below 80 Hz activity in the room, THEN you couple the sub(s) to the rest of your system, paying full attention to the phase and impulse response.

In many modern movies (unlike music CD's) there is rather little correlation between the LFE on the DVD and frequencies ABOVE 80 Hz; therefore if you must err, err in the direction of better room coupling below 80 Hz.

For the realm of 2-channel music / audiophile intentions, the phase relationships below 80 and above 80 ARE critically important, since IF you are attempting to reproduce music which has fundamentals of below 80 and a harmonic structure extending well up above 80, then your main concern is impulse response and therefore phase response, or you will have soft, flabby boomy bass with not enough musical correlation as you deserve and probably paid for.

Imagine a correctly recorded kick drum (that itself is a fantasy, but...) It has a fundamental of 50-60 Hz; a sub-harmonic an octave lower (25-30 Hz) and since it is AN IMPULSE HIT, (it is essentially the leading edge of a square wave) it has a series of mostly odd harmonics going all the way to at least 4k or 8k. So theoretically, if you are attempting to reproduce this holy grail of a live drum kit in your living room, when the kick hits, every driver in your system must be in phase correctly.

Most modern subs have a certain amount of group delay, inherent in the physics because of the filtering and the mechanical issue of moving the driver. Therefore it is quite possible that in your HT system, while playing music, you THINK you are "in phase" but your sub is 360 or 720 degrees "late". Yes you perceive this as being in phase because the bass does not "cancel" but it is not as tight and focused as you might like, or quite possibly have ever heard.

But back to the height and the platform issue. As Art points out, by placing the sub driver at a more phase neutral coupling spot IN THE ROOM (this has nothing to do with the rest of your equipment) you are maximizing the impulse response transferred to your listening position.

I suggest as an interesting (and cheap) test, that you go to a Lowes or Home Depot home improvement store, get at least 12 8" cube cement blocks, (about a buck each or so) and then start by putting 4 blocks under your (one) sub. Then 8. Then 12. As the sub is raised off the floor, you get a little bit less coupling at the lowest frequencies, i.e. 20-35 Hz (the floor was one side of the horn...) but you get tighter and MORE INTIMATE COUPLING at the higher frequencies (38-80 Hz). You MAY find a magic combination that tightens up your musical experience dramatically, and also helps with the intimacy of movie explosions. Then I suggest you decide on the most appealing methodology for keeping the sub(s) at that height, perhaps building a stand as this fellow has done. etc.

One more point - I get asked this ALL THE TIME. Raising the sub off the floor has NOTHING TO DO with vibration. Good modern subs do not have cabinets that vibrate. The sound comes out the driver and goes everywhere in the room. If something in the room is going to resonate it is going to do it whether the sub is on the floor or on 2 cement blocks, 4 cement blocks, 46 Ft. Lauderdale beach towels, or any commercial gadget, felt, foam, stand, etc.

And if I can be of help to any individual then don't hesitate to contact me.
Barry

That's all interesting. I thought about that, but when it comes to lift an f113 i decide to postpone it.

My question: by stacking we would have two drivers at different height. Would it be less detrimental to have both subs raised? Stacking wouldn't help much also evening out room modes, is that correct?

orologio,

Actually, somebody makes a subwoofer specific box that you put your sub on. Its offered in different heights depending on your ceiling height. It also has some bass traps built into it.

I'll see if I can find a link.

Edit....here we go

http://www.asc-home-theater.com/subtrap.htm

Nice to see this thread still active. I've had 4 F113s for a long time. I thought I had done a pretty decent job with setup and then with ARC from my Anthem D2 processor. Just had a pro audio calibrator up. He moved the front pair a little, integrated just the front 2 subs with my 2 channel setup (ATC Anniversary 100 Actives) and the result is just magic! No-one has been able to guess that any subs are on for 2 channel.

Amazingly, the bass with 4 subs for HT is just INCREDIBLE. Before the calibration I had thought "yeah these are pretty decent but I'll upgrade when I move in the future". Now I'm saying "wow, these are the shiznit!". The sheer impact and musicality (a vague term at best, but let's just say they offer beautifully natural bass) make me realize they were worth the money b/c the aesthetics were also important to me.

Doctor, I hear ya. I can see that in a large room. In our church we have two dual 18" bins about 25' in the air. We get decent bass but again the room is rather large. I'm just guessing in the average theater or media room of 8, 9 or 10' cielings you would not want the sub much more than 1-2' off the floor. As far the corner placement the walls do act like a horn to some degree and have been told in can boost SPL 3dB but can add to the room nulls as well. Co-location [stacking not side by side] can do the same. For me I like the front plane for a single sub or the corners for multiple subs.

I think you will see the next gen from JLA in late 2011 to early 2012. There will be a "budget" offering soon with less performance than the Fathoms but much less coin.

Bogg please PM who calibrated your room and the tools they used.

PM sent

Nice to see this thread still active. I've had 4 F113s for a long time. I thought I had done a pretty decent job with setup and then with ARC from my Anthem D2 processor. Just had a pro audio calibrator up. He moved the front pair a little, integrated just the front 2 subs with my 2 channel setup (ATC Anniversary 100 Actives) and the result is just magic! No-one has been able to guess that any subs are on for 2 channel.

Amazingly, the bass with 4 subs for HT is just INCREDIBLE. Before the calibration I had thought "yeah these are pretty decent but I'll upgrade when I move in the future". Now I'm saying "wow, these are the shiznit!". The sheer impact and musicality (a vague term at best, but let's just say they offer beautifully natural bass) make me realize they were worth the money b/c the aesthetics were also important to me.

Bogg,

Nice piont. I followed Barry's instructions and set up disc with my two to integrate properly with my front mains and found the same thing. Increased my SPL so much I had to drop the overall settings to -2 db from +3 db originally. Nice. I have also found the same thing you have by doing so. I would love four (two stacked) but my S/O would probably have me dismembered for doing so. I believe my room is probably smaller than yours and on the floor, four would not be possible to really move effectively around our family room with all the other stuff in it. With the two, I now have a dynamic headroom that seems endless and I thought it was pretty doggoned good before, as you did. I also found them to be seamless with my front mains and musical as all heck on reference audio discs. Love 'em, for sure.

Enjoy.

Odd

Does anyone know if JL is showing anything NEW at CEDIA?

Does anyone know if JL is showing anything NEW at CEDIA?


Yeah they are gunna have to step to the game a bit since the release of the Gotham and Fathom lines compared to what is available out there these days.

I went to Hot Lanta for last years Cedia, but I won't be doing that again....

It was a fun journey but most of that vacation was not in Hot Lanta...

Yeah they are gunna have to step to the game a bit since the release of the Gotham and Fathom lines compared to what is available out there these days.

I went to Hot Lanta for last years Cedia, but I won't be doing that again....

It was a fun journey but most of that vacation was not in Hot Lanta...

Personally, I haven't seen anything out there I would rather have than my two Gotham G213 subs!

JL is showing off 13.5" driver for 'IWS' with rackmount amplifier. One with 1K watt amp + 1x13.5 driver ($4500) and 2K amp with 2x13.5" drivers ($7500).

The rest of the sealed subs stay unchanged. (for today at least).

edit: old news? They showed the IWS in CEDIA 2008 also....oh well.

Guys, I need your help. When running a pure two-channel audio set-up. Let's say the set-up is preamp, amp, and LR speakers that go down to only 35hertz. What stand-alone active crossover do you use (brand)? MSRP?

I am thinking of adding the JL sub but I dont know what active crossover to buy?

Pls give me some advice. Thanks.

Personally, I haven't seen anything out there I would rather have than my two Gotham G213 subs!

+1. Amen! I can imagine twin G213's and I have experienced them at my local JL dealer, but for my room and situation, twin F113's fit the bill and then some. With those, I feel the same way as you do as they can literally move my townhouse down the block when called upon so twin Gotham's are amazing.

Personally, I haven't seen anything out there I would rather have than my two Gotham G213 subs!


Huh.... to each their own....

I did and both your Gothams together still don't equal the output of 1 of my subs.... Now multiply that by 3.... :rolleyes:

Huh.... to each their own....

I did and both your Gothams together still don't equal the output of 1 of my subs.... Now multiply that by 3.... :rolleyes:

there is a whole lot more involved than shear output. Quality, speed, ability to integrate, properly phase with the main speakers, etc. Anyone can produce massive bass frequencies, but the quality and sheer musicality along with immense air is another story.

I've heard subs that can blow Gothams out but none have I heard in that range can come anywhere close to the bass quality and musicality, speed and bass natural "color" than the G213 and F113 subs and certainly none that were home made. The home made ones could move your socks off your feet but could not integrate well on orchestral works like the JL's can.

If shear HT volume output is your game, enjoy. But for those of us which the sub must perform other duties equally, or more importantly - absolutely, well, then the JL's are a no brainer sub.

there is a whole lot more involved than shear output. Quality, speed, ability to integrate, properly phase with the main speakers, etc. Anyone can produce massive bass frequencies, but the quality and sheer musicality along with immense air is another story.

I've heard subs that can blow Gothams out but none have I heard in that range can come anywhere close to the bass quality and musicality, speed and bass natural "color" than the G213 and F113 subs and certainly none that were home made. The home made ones could move your socks off your feet but could not integrate well on orchestral works like the JL's can.

If shear HT volume output is your game, enjoy. But for those of us which the sub must perform other duties equally, or more importantly - absolutely, well, then the JL's are a no brainer sub.


Your welcome over any time....

I own an F112, and my goal was to meet and exceed its performance of SQ, accuracy, integration, linearity, upper bass blending, power, punch - you name it... JL is awesome, I won't argue with you there, but they are not the finest driver on the planet - you'd be awefully closed minded to think that... My project is in my profile....

Let just say that I think JL could easily step up their game....
They make awesome stuff.... Just way too expensive...

C'mon, Warp. How can you expect your "home-mades" to have the "bass quality and musicality, speed and bass natural "color" of the JL's? (LOL) :rolleyes:

Fuggettaboutit!:p

C'mon, Warp. How can you expect your "home-mades" to have the "bass quality and musicality, speed and bass natural "color" of the JL's? (LOL) :rolleyes:

Fuggettaboutit!:p

Ok ya got me.... :p

What do you all think is a fair price for a used f113?

Thanks.

Mark

What do you all think is a fair price for a used f113?

Thanks.

Mark

I guess it depends on condition and circumstance.

$2k maybe.
Check audiogon and compare

http://cgis.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/srch_fs.pl?searchstring=JL+audio

What do you all think is a fair price for a used f113?

Thanks.

Mark

First your AVP and now your f113? This is madness.:D

First your AVP and now your f113? This is madness.:D

That is TWO f113's, my friend. Also, two Velodyne DD-15's and my D-Box system as well. Priorities, I am afraid; three little ones to feed and clothe in a tanked economy.

Mark

So sorry to hear about your hardships in these tough times...

Good luck to you and your family Mark.... they are only toys...

Flesh and blood is always more important !!! Keep your head up my friend...

So sorry to hear about your hardships in these tough times...

Good luck to you and your family Mark.... they are only toys...

Flesh and blood is always more important !!! Keep your head up my friend...

Thanks Warp, I appreciate it. You are right; they are only toys.

Mark

I know we shouldn't post street prices, but can anyone mention what percentage of retail the Gotham G213's go for?

That is TWO f113's, my friend. Also, two Velodyne DD-15's and my D-Box system as well. Priorities, I am afraid; three little ones to feed and clothe in a tanked economy.

Mark

Hi Mark.

I hear ya. I have a couple of little ones too. Family first. I wish you well, my friend.

I know we shouldn't post street prices, but can anyone mention what percentage of retail the Gotham G213's go for?

Maybe contact this guy, see what he says.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1288824701&/JL-Audio-Gotham-G213-Sub-in-gl

Hi Mark.

I hear ya. I have a couple of little ones too. Family first. I wish you well, my friend.

Waboman,
I see you're on here as well as the MartinLogan forum? Nice to be able to spread yourself around.
Wow that brings back unpleasant memories! Isn't it strange sometimes when you look at it from a distance you had more money when you were both single? I had to sell my 2 channel system to buy a house. I "fortunately";) ended up divorced years later kept the house and bought new equipment better than before.(Better control of finances) Fast forward years ahead and the kids are now teenagers, still living with me, well adjusted and are doing very well in school and their lives thank you very much.:D

"Statman" aka Sharp 1080

P.S. Good luck Mark hopefully in the future you''ll get your equipment again.

Maybe contact this guy, see what he says.
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homesubw&1288824701&/JL-Audio-Gotham-G213-Sub-in-gl

I have seen them as low as 6000. But for 6000 you can do a lot better than JL.

Not interested in a purchase, but thanks for the info guys! Kutlow, you know what I'm packing. :) And I ain't changing.

I wondered what I should sell my F-112 for too. I wanna sell it fast. Its like new.

I wondered what I should sell my F-112 for too. I wanna sell it fast. Its like new.

I sold my F113 for 2k which is what I paid for them.

I sold my F113 for 2k which is what I paid for them.

you did good then. I sold 3 F113'S for around 1850 each and they were nice although one had new guts put in after the first set blew up.

I sold my F113 for 2k which is what I paid for them.

New? From where?

New? From where?Unauth dealer. PM me if you want to know more.

Kutlow, you a JL hater now? I thought you liked the JLs better than the Danley's in some ways???

Again the selling price of the GOTHAM is more that just its sound quality. It for the fit and finish and high level components used in its build out. If it was in a big ugly matte black box it would sell for much less.

What many did not get to see at CEDIA was the new "E" line prototype. It will be a value priced product using a new driver and amp design. Thats all I can say since I cannot disclose estimated retail and design criteria.

Waboman,
I see you're on here as well as the MartinLogan forum?

PM sent.:)

Kutlow, you a JL hater now? I thought you liked the JLs better than the Danley's in some ways???

Again the selling price of the GOTHAM is more that just its sound quality. It for the fit and finish and high level components used in its build out. If it was in a big ugly matte black box it would sell for much less.

What many did not get to see at CEDIA was the new "E" line prototype. It will be a value priced product using a new driver and amp design. Thats all I can say since I cannot disclose estimated retail and design criteria.

no I love JL aUDIO Fathom line. I just would like to see it in a 18 inch version

It has been recommended that I disable the sub xover and let the D2v handle bass management. when I run the Anthem's ARC software my charts are all screwed up. How would I disable the 113 xover? and do you guy recommend that?

It has been recommended that I disable the sub xover and let the D2v handle bass management. when I run the Anthem's ARC software my charts are all screwed up. How would I disable the 113 xover? and do you guy recommend that?

From the manual. . .

LP Filter
The Low Pass (LP) Filter selector switch determines the operating mode of the Fathom’s built-in low pass filter.

“Off” defeats the low pass filter, completely removing this circuit from the signal path.
“12 dB” sets the roll off slope of the low pass filter to a 12 dB per octave slope (Butterworth alignment).
“24 dB” sets the roll off slope of the low pass filter to a 24 dB per octave slope (Linkwitz-Riley alignment).

The 24 dB setting more aggressively attenuates high frequencies above the LP Frequency setting (see below). If you are using the Fathom’s built-in low pass filter, experiment with the LP Filter slope setting to achieve the best transition to your satellite speakers. If you prefer to use the filters and bass management features in your receiver or preamplifier, defeat the on-board filter by selecting the “Off” position.

From the manual. . .

LP Filter
The Low Pass (LP) Filter selector switch determines the operating mode of the Fathom’s built-in low pass filter.

“Off” defeats the low pass filter, completely removing this circuit from the signal path.
“12 dB” sets the roll off slope of the low pass filter to a 12 dB per octave slope (Butterworth alignment).
“24 dB” sets the roll off slope of the low pass filter to a 24 dB per octave slope (Linkwitz-Riley alignment).

The 24 dB setting more aggressively attenuates high frequencies above the LP Frequency setting (see below). If you are using the Fathom’s built-in low pass filter, experiment with the LP Filter slope setting to achieve the best transition to your satellite speakers. If you prefer to use the filters and bass management features in your receiver or preamplifier, defeat the on-board filter by selecting the “Off” position.

Thanks

Maybe something new coming down the pike for 2011.

This post by a dealer responding to wood finishes for JL subs suggests entirely new models coming -- and in wood finishes.

http://audioaficionado.org/116566-post13.html

The sleeping giant has finally awoken?

On my F113, the Calibrate button light started blinking at a rate of about once a second. I have had this sub for several years and leave the power on 24/7. The manual says this indicates the level is too low during a calibrate cycle, but I was not calibrating, nor was the mic attached. I tried powering down, then back on but that did not stop the blinking.
Anyone know what's going on?

On my F113, the Calibrate button light started blinking at a rate of about once a second. I have had this sub for several years and leave the power on 24/7. The manual says this indicates the level is too low during a calibrate cycle, but I was not calibrating, nor was the mic attached. I tried powering down, then back on but that did not stop the blinking.
Anyone know what's going on?

Maybe at some point, the calibration button got hit without you're knowledge. This happened to me when one of my cats jumped on top of one of my Gotham's. Try recalibrating and see if it will take care of it.

or perhaps a sub-killer, the Seaton Submersive....I'm just sayin.

GT,

JL has never claimed to be the end all in SPL and total depth of freq. response how could it be in such a small enclosure? I have stated this many times.

The SS, as well as others, can go deeper and play louder but with compromise. Most all of the larger enclosure subs are not quite as responsive for critical music listening [note I did not say bad nor poor by any means] however the big boys are all over the F113 down deep and it terms of SPL.

The trade off is fit and finish and appearance. If you don't mind the size and appearance [many hide the sub below the screen] then maybe JL is not for you. It is my opinion only if JL made a matte black industrial type enclosure they could sell the F113 for 30-50% less.

It depends on what you want.

Well, it's been just over a year now since i bought my F113 and am finally considering getting a 2nd one. From a hardware point of view, has there been any changes to the driver or the electronics that would affect the sound between integrating the two? If it matters, my sub was built Feb 2009.

Is it wise at this stage to get a second one when a new model maybe just around the corner?

thanks

Well, it's been just over a year now since i bought my F113 and am finally considering getting a 2nd one. From a hardware point of view, has there been any changes to the driver or the electronics that would affect the sound between integrating the two? If it matters, my sub was built Feb 2009.

Is it wise at this stage to get a second one when a new model maybe just around the corner?

thanks

When I bought my pair, one was a dealer demo and the other was just off the assembly line. They were visually and sonicly (is that a word?) identical.

great news!

mmiles, any take on this? I would be unhappy even if the finish showed much variance, let alone the sound? I got the Satin Black, so would i have any issues?

Thanks for your informative posts!

great news!

mmiles, any take on this? I would be unhappy even if the finish showed much variance, let alone the sound? I got the Satin Black, so would i have any issues?

Thanks for your informative posts!

You will have no issues.

Well, it's been just over a year now since i bought my F113 and am finally considering getting a 2nd one. From a hardware point of view, has there been any changes to the driver or the electronics that would affect the sound between integrating the two? If it matters, my sub was built Feb 2009.

Is it wise at this stage to get a second one when a new model maybe just around the corner?

thanks

Subwoofers have come along way since the release of the F113's. Perhaps looking at whats currently available instead of sticking with older builds? The Seaton sub for instance is slightly larger than the JL stuff but my God, what a performer. I'm not a fanboy of Seaton's stuff but it clearly offers much, much more than the F113 or the aging Gotham for that matter. My two cents, look around before committing so much money to another JL Audio, you owe it to your ears:D:D:D

Subwoofers have come along way since the release of the F113's. Perhaps looking at whats currently available instead of sticking with older builds? The Seaton sub for instance is slightly larger than the JL stuff but my God, what a performer. I'm not a fanboy of Seaton's stuff but it clearly offers much, much more than the F113 or the aging Gotham for that matter. My two cents, look around before committing so much money to another JL Audio, you owe it to your ears:D:D:D

Specifically, what technological aspects of the Fathom line do you feel have grown deficient?

Getech aren't you the same guy who was a JL Audio dealer and JL took away your authorization to sell their stuff?

Subwoofers have come along way since the release of the F113's. Perhaps looking at whats currently available instead of sticking with older builds? The Seaton sub for instance is slightly larger than the JL stuff but my God, what a performer. I'm not a fanboy of Seaton's stuff but it clearly offers much, much more than the F113 or the aging Gotham for that matter. My two cents, look around before committing so much money to another JL Audio, you owe it to your ears:D:D:D

No thanks. I've been really happy with my F113 from a musical, size, and quality stand point. It's more than what i actually need but would like to even out the bass response by having a second one.

I've checked out the other subs in question but the F113 still peaks my interest! :D

Specifically, what technological aspects of the Fathom line do you feel have grown deficient?

What I would add as further acoustic differences in favor of the SubMersive is the lack of dynamic compression across the entire operating range, where the F113 is breathing quite hard above 35Hz where the SubMersive just laughs that range off with huge headroom and greater HF extension afforded by the pair of separate drivers/VC/motors and much greater cone area. Another huge difference is the in-room extension observed. All of the Fathom subwoofers employ a high pass at some low frequency. There are benefits and detriments to this choice. It means you can push the sub a bit harder down low with the craziest of soundtracks, but it also means you can experience things with 1-4 SubMersives that most subwoofers won't even attempt, and I have repeatedly preferred the subjective effects this has in music listening.

I believe the SubMersive is a bit more elegant in employing the right parts to solve the problem, rather than the biggest and beefiest that can be found. Also, the SubMersive is a lot less expensive and you get so much more, there is really no comparison.;)

Subwoofers have come along way since the release of the F113's. My two cents, look around before committing so much money to another JL Audio, you owe it to your ears:D:D:D

I agree 100%. I think he should sell me his F113 for $500 before everyone figures this out and it further devalues. He will then be free to find one of those newer, better subwoofers. It will be hard for me, but I will suffer with the F113 so he can enjoy the newness of something different. :D

I agree 100%. I think he should sell me his F113 for $500 before everyone figures this out and it further devalues. He will then be free to find one of those newer, better subwoofers. It will be hard for me, but I will suffer with the F113 so he can enjoy the newness of something different. :D

Well said Mycrombie, well said.;)

What I would add as further acoustic differences in favor of the SubMersive is the lack of dynamic compression across the entire operating range, where the F113 is breathing quite hard above 35Hz where the SubMersive just laughs that range off with huge headroom and greater HF extension afforded by the pair of separate drivers/VC/motors and much greater cone area. Another huge difference is the in-room extension observed. All of the Fathom subwoofers employ a high pass at some low frequency. There are benefits and detriments to this choice. It means you can push the sub a bit harder down low with the craziest of soundtracks, but it also means you can experience things with 1-4 SubMersives that most subwoofers won't even attempt, and I have repeatedly preferred the subjective effects this has in music listening.

I believe the SubMersive is a bit more elegant in employing the right parts to solve the problem, rather than the biggest and beefiest that can be found. Also, the SubMersive is a lot less expensive and you get so much more, there is really no comparison.;)

None of what you mention are specific technologies that make the Fathom outdated. The F113 and the Seaton are both great subs, with a different market. Depending on room and gain, the F113 competes well with the Seaton at any reasonable listening level, though the Seaton does have a lower bottom end (which is noticeable for a few seconds in some movies)

Most users choose the F113 for it's combination of performance and size - not everyone has room for or wants multiple submersives in a shared use room. For those with room, the Seaton is an awesome sub.

We know you had your JL dealership pulled, then went to SVS - can I assume based on your new love for the Submersive and no mention of SVS that you no longer have access to that product line as well?

If you really aren't interested in the JL products, feel free to participate in other threads - I think everyone knows where you stand and your history here.

I just bought a F113 from mmiles and couldn't be any happier and will likely buy a second one from him in a few months. Sure I could have bought a SubMersive or an SVS sub but those subs are much bigger and I don't have the room for them. Additionally, where my sub is placed it is not hidden and since I have to look at it, I think having a nice looking smaller size sub that performs matters to me. I don't get that with the others. Some of us don't want a mammoth sized sub that dominates the room so some are willing to give up a little in extension. Additionally, some of us that have the extra disposable income are willing to pay for a F113 for these things whereas some just come here to complain about how you can get two HSU, SVS, or whatever for the same price with better performance. That mentality gets old and there are plenty of other threads on this subject. It's like going on the Ferrari message board and telling them how much better a kit car will perform compared to a Ferrari.

I've got both an F113 and a submersive in the same room. 12'x15' and in that size room I can't tell them apart performance wise. Maybe in a bigger room the submersive would move ahead, but not in my room. And the smaller footprint of the f113 is more appealing to me. I vote another F113.

I've got both an F113 and a submersive in the same room. 12'x15' and in that size room I can't tell them apart performance wise. Maybe in a bigger room the submersive would move ahead, but not in my room. And the smaller footprint of the f113 is more appealing to me. I vote another F113.

+1. There are other benefits besides the extreme extension the F113 provides. It is not voted sub of the year by TAS/HT magazines, etc. for nothing. The quality of that bass is also of paramount importance to a lot of us. Sheer dynmic slam is possible from many sources. But if it is just bang with no substance, then it is worth nothing to me. The blend I obtain with my two F113's, the quality, speed and bass color, ability to cleanly hear a plucked upright bass along with the movie HT experience is revelatory in my case. Get the second F113, enjoy it and don't look back.

+1. There are other benefits besides the extreme extension the F113 provides. It is not voted sub of the year by TAS/HT magazines, etc. for nothing. The quality of that bass is also of paramount importance to a lot of us. Sheer dynmic slam is possible from many sources. But if it is just bang with no substance, then it is worth nothing to me. The blend I obtain with my two F113's, the quality, speed and bass color, ability to cleanly hear a plucked upright bass along with the movie HT experience is revelatory in my case. Get the second F113, enjoy it and don't look back.

I'm just sayin....if the F113 is so close to the Submersive, and the Submersive is 2/3's the cost, then it seems like a better deal. I love the ICE modules which seemingly are the future my friends. :rolleyes:

I'm just sayin....if the F113 is so close to the Submersive, and the Submersive is 2/3's the cost, then it seems like a better deal. I love the ICE modules which seemingly are the future my friends. :rolleyes:

If you have nothing constructive to add to this thread, why do you bother posting?

I am surprised the mods have not banned you permanently given your history.

I should add that IMO if you could get a subversive for 2/3 the price, and don't care about the size( or mixing subs) then it is a legitimate alternative. But I'm not sure that is the case. No idea of pricing in the US.

I'm still in love with my F113, and I've owned it since Jan 07, that's almost 4 years:eek: the only audio relic that I have for that long are some cables:rolleyes: I would really would like to try a second f113 but things are scary enough with the one, just would like to know how it feels:cool:

I'm sure what ever JL have been working on these past few years will be incredible and would really wet my whistle but have to driving away any temptation.:)


Djoel

Yes, despite the upgrade bug we all get, my two 113s are still astounding- and the new xt32 and subeq ht from audyssey let's them perform that much better...

Here's a funny story to get a laugh at my expense.:o I was watching tv awhile back, and for some strange reason, I decide to look at the green lights on my f113's. Only one light was on! WTF! So I check behind the f113 without a green light on. Seems the XLR cable wasn't plugged in. I must have accidentally stepped on it when I was back there messing around. Here's the funny part. It's been awhile since I've been back there. So all these movies, HTTYD, IM2, Predators, etc have only been played thru one f113. And I thought it rocked! I will now have to rewatch all that crap with both f113's active. I'm such a ******.:D

What I'm saying is, the fathoms rock!

Here's a funny story to get a laugh at my expense.:o I was watching tv awhile back, and for some strange reason, I decide to look at the green lights on my f113's. Only one light was on! WTF! So I check behind the f113 without a green light on. Seems the XLR cable wasn't plugged in. I must have accidentally stepped on it when I was back there messing around. Here's the funny part. It's been awhile since I've been back there. So all these movies, HTTYD, IM2, Predators, etc have only been played thru one f113. And I thought it rocked! I will now have to rewatch all that crap with both f113's active. I'm such a ******.:D

What I'm saying is, the fathoms rock!

Reminds me of the proverbial "break-in period" for speakers or electronics....your ears will get used to most anything. :o

but it clearly offers much, much more than the F113 or the aging Gotham for that matter. My two cents, look around before committing so much money to another JL Audio, you owe it to your ears:D:D:D

Yea, right...
:D:D

Have you ever heard a Gotham in you own listening room? I have two in a 28' x 15' room, and sometimes I think the subs must be causing structural damage to my house!

Seriously, walls and mid level floors deflecting and oscillating over 1/2"!

Yeah, right...
:D:D

Have you ever heard a Gotham in you own listening room? I have two in a 28' x 15' room, and sometimes I think the subs must be causing structural damage to my house!

Seriously, walls and mid level floors deflecting and oscillating over 1/2"!



Would love to experience that one day, two Gothams:eek:


Djoel

Would love to experience that one day, two Gothams:eek:


Djoel

It's quite impressive. A friend nearby has a pair and they rock. But my 4 F113s have better uniformity of bass throughout the room, and of course pack a significant punch too. ;)

Too expensive. My DTS-10 will knock a Gotham on it's butt for 1/6th the price!:p

It's quite impressive. A friend nearby has a pair and they rock. But my 4 F113s have better uniformity of bass throughout the room, and of course pack a significant punch too. ;)

LOL I have uniformity of bass pretty much throughout my entire house.

Too expensive. My DTS-10 will knock a Gotham on it's butt for 1/6th the price!:p

Maybe... but at 45” x 60” x 16”, I don't think so. Besides, the Gotham is a thing of beauty and more than does the job for my room without having to have two refrigerators in the room, and I plan on passing down my Gothams to my grandchildren, they are so rugged.

Maybe... but at 45” x 60” x 16”, I don't think so. Besides, the Gotham is a thing of beauty and more than does the job for my room without having to have two refrigerators in the room, and I plan on passing down my Gothams to my grandchildren, they are so rugged.They are pretty I'll grant you that, but 24K worth of pretty? HOLY CRAP NO! For a little bit of money you can build the DTS-10 it's own wall with just the port showing.

Besides, I like my refrigerator sized sub. She's kind of cute in a fat girl kind of way.

They are pretty I'll grant you that, but 24K worth of pretty? HOLY CRAP NO! For a little bit of money you can build the DTS-10 it's own wall with just the port showing.

Besides, I like my refrigerator sized sub. She's kind of cute in a fat girl kind of way.


I paid less than 15k for my pair and have a lot of placement options. But to each his own.:D

A rendering from a 3D model I created in Autodesk Inventor:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=193744&stc=1&d=1292012890


http://http//www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=193744&d=1292012791

They are pretty I'll grant you that, but 24K worth of pretty? HOLY CRAP NO! For a little bit of money you can build the DTS-10 it's own wall with just the port showing.

Besides, I like my refrigerator sized sub. She's kind of cute in a fat girl kind of way.

You keep your cute fat girl and I'll keep my sexy, Super Model.

:D:D:D

It's quite impressive. A friend nearby has a pair and they rock. But my 4 F113s have better uniformity of bass throughout the room, and of course pack a significant punch too. ;)

Darn now I'm torn, would really love hear the 4 F113's that would definitely be a blast:eek:

DJoel

Here's a funny story to get a laugh at my expense.:o I was watching tv awhile back, and for some strange reason, I decide to look at the green lights on my f113's. Only one light was on! WTF! So I check behind the f113 without a green light on. Seems the XLR cable wasn't plugged in. I must have accidentally stepped on it when I was back there messing around. Here's the funny part. It's been awhile since I've been back there. So all these movies, HTTYD, IM2, Predators, etc have only been played thru one f113. And I thought it rocked! I will now have to rewatch all that crap with both f113's active. I'm such a ******.:D

What I'm saying is, the fathoms rock!Ah, but this begs the question: Are two subs really needed? Of course, when has "need" ever dictated anything in home theater...

Needed is not the question. Its about balancing the room. I can see where The Bogg is coming from with his 4 placed throughout. My first F113 rocked my world and then when I decided to go for the second one, Barry @ JL advised me it would make more than the double addition because of better balance. Indeed that was the case. They disappear so much more so I almost can never tell they are there. With one, you can sense it is coming from one place a lot more. I would love 4 in strategic locations but my S/O would kill me. She was not happy with my second one but indulged me. She really doesn't like the couch and other objects moving about the room, unfortunately, so when things begin to get fun I see the "please turn it down a few notches" look. When I am home alone, though, things begin to move all about.

What I find endearing with the subs is not only their volume but the musicality for such a large'ish driver. They can easily keep up when things get really rowdy without any hint of overhang or lagging behind, which is something I had heard in many other subs and turned me off completely in a very short time frame when I auditioned them. These babies are fast when they need to be. Music is every bit as important as that bombastic movie sound track. Actually music is more so.

Lastly, they are a work of art in the room and I am convinced that is what sold my S/O on allowing me the second one. The gloss finish is very well done. Fit/finish first rate. That makes all the difference.

In the end, enjoy what you have. These are, after all, big boy toys.

Is it Christmas, yet?!

Ah, but this begs the question: Are two subs really needed? Of course, when has "need" ever dictated anything in home theater...

Hehe. Yes, without a doubt, two subs are needed. I was blown away when I rewatched some of those movies again. Especially with the recent one sub sound freshly in my mind. I was literally grinning from ear-to-ear. I can only imagine the sheer joy of four f113's or gasp, a pair of Gothams. I'm giddy.:D

For those running dual subs, how large is your room?

I have a single F113, and my room is about 2200 cubic feet....it seems one sub handles the room very nicely now.

For those running dual subs, how large is your room?

I have a single F113, and my room is about 2200 cubic feet....it seems one sub handles the room very nicely now.

Mine is roughly the same; however, on the right side it is basically open to the stairwell down to the first floor so a lot is lost to that opening. Having said that, one F113 was more than adequate. Having the second did, as I noted, balance the room out dramatically and also allows each sub to run a lot easier and not pushed as hard all the time. Not that pushing a sub is a bad thing - that is their very reason for existing! For me, it was about balance, "disappearing" into the sound field so much more and the sheer musicality of them in tandem on demanding kick drum/bass.

I would love 4 in strategic locations but my S/O would kill me. She was not happy with my second one but indulged me. She really doesn't like the couch and other objects moving about the room, unfortunately, so when things begin to get fun I see the "please turn it down a few notches" look. When I am home alone, though, things begin to move all about. Just show her this:

http://i833.photobucket.com/albums/zz251/matthew-viviano/DTS-10/IMG_3527.jpg

Maybe she won't mind your 113's so much. I get the look of death all the time. The look starts at -28 and the scowl gets deeper which each click of the volume knob!

For those running dual subs, how large is your room?

I have a single F113, and my room is about 2200 cubic feet....it seems one sub handles the room very nicely now.

Mine is 3,480 cubic feet (29' x 15' x 8') with a pair of Gotham subs.

Well, it's been just over a year now since i bought my F113 and am finally considering getting a 2nd one. From a hardware point of view, has there been any changes to the driver or the electronics that would affect the sound between integrating the two? If it matters, my sub was built Feb 2009.

Is it wise at this stage to get a second one when a new model maybe just around the corner?

thanks

This a very good question, I recall Craig having some indifference between his two F112 back when he owned them, he had to send one in to JL Audio I believe, not too sure thought. I think they told him one had some updated software, or something? One was made at different date I think.
But it's all here some were:) I'm not too good at digging stuff up.

Djoel

This a very good question, I recall Craig having some indifference between his two F112 back when he owned them, he had to send one in to JL Audio I believe, not too sure thought. I think they told him one had some updated software, or something? One was made at different date I think.
But it's all here some were:) I'm not too good at digging stuff up.

Djoel

That was discussed by him in the SVS AS-EQ1 thread if I recall correctly.

Darn now I'm torn, would really love hear the 4 F113's that would definitely be a blast:eek:

DJoel

If you're ever in the neighbourhood, pop on by.

2 F113s are definitely the "sweet spot". You get more with 4 subs sure, but having 2 gives plenty of power and smoothness throughout the room.

[QUOTE=CadmanDigital4U;19626907]I paid less than 15k for my pair and have a lot of placement options. But to each his own.:D

Fortunately, I received really good deals on my subs too.
A lot of comments are aimed at JL's MSRP vs other subs.
I do not think a lot of people paid near MSRP. So the price issue is mute.

Big underground market for new electronic where manufactures turn a blind eye. ID companies seem to hold their prices steady. Which is usually, a good value and everyone pays the same price. Which is a nice feeling.

For what I paid, the JL subs rock the house and looks great. Keepers until the next of kin take the hand off!

This a very good question, I recall Craig having some indifference between his two F112 back when he owned them, he had to send one in to JL Audio I believe, not too sure thought. I think they told him one had some updated software, or something? One was made at different date I think.
But it's all here some were:) I'm not too good at digging stuff up.

Djoel
Here ya go:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=16807697&highlight=craig+john#post16807697
Starting with Post 5223 and subsequent posts.

I had 2 F112's built on different dates, (one was a very early production model.) The firmware was changed after I bought that sub. The second sub did not match it. JL sent me a whole new amplifier/control board for the original sub.

If there is any concern about whether new firmware is available, I would just contact JL. Their CS is excellent.

Craig

Too expensive. My DTS-10 will knock a Gotham on it's butt for 1/6th the price!:p

They are pretty I'll grant you that, but 24K worth of pretty? HOLY CRAP NO! For a little bit of money you can build the DTS-10 it's own wall with just the port showing.

Besides, I like my refrigerator sized sub. She's kind of cute in a fat girl kind of way.

I'm coming from a F113 to a DTS10, and I think the former has better SQ. Yes, I already provided high Q, deep notches at 54 & 99hz, with my Crown BandManager software, ran MultEQ XT afterward, then little adjustment to personal preference. Double digit panels and extensive curtaining are all up before all that. The DTS10 no doubt beats it easily in terms of extension and output, but I still think the F113 sounds better. Just my subjective opinion with uncontrolled listening sessions. I assume the Gotham would sound at least as good as a F113.

Another benefit of having a smaller size, particularly footprint, is that there are more placement options in finding the best room interaction. The DTS10 is simply too freakin' heavy to even try for me. I already strained my back the first time. I don't know how one ascertains the best place to build the DTS10 into a wall. I highly doubt that any significant portion of AVSers are ready to tear down their walls to find the best placement. At 16" deep, I'm not sure I would want the sub's rear sticking out on the other side.

In fact, I just built a false wall and screen using DIY Seymour, and the original plan was to put the sub hidden behind there with my 3 towers. Well, the DTS10 is so freaking big that I axed that idea, because I was afraid of lopsided and/or incorrect diffraction effects, as it might very well act like a "wall" between two of my three speakers.

I can easily understand someone getting a JL over a huge TH. Also, I would bet a lot of money that there isn't a single interested AVSer who paid close to retail for JL subs of any kind, and particularly the Gotham.

I really did want more extension and output, and I got them both. I do believe I had to give up SQ to get there though. Cheers.

I'm coming from a F113 to a DTS10, and I think the former has better SQ. Yes, I already provided high Q, deep notches at 54 & 99hz, with my Crown BandManager software, ran MultEQ XT afterward, then little adjustment to personal preference. Double digit panels and extensive curtaining are all up before all that. The DTS10 no doubt beats it easily in terms of extension and output, but I still think the F113 sounds better. Just my subjective opinion with uncontrolled listening sessions. I assume the Gotham would sound at least as good as a F113.

Another benefit of having a smaller size, particularly footprint, is that there are more placement options in finding the best room interaction. The DTS10 is simply too freakin' heavy to even try for me. I already strained my back the first time. I don't know how one ascertains the best place to build the DTS10 into a wall. I highly doubt that any significant portion of AVSers are ready to tear down their walls to find the best placement. At 16" deep, I'm not sure I would want the sub's rear sticking out on the other side.

In fact, I just built a false wall and screen using DIY Seymour, and the original plan was to put the sub hidden behind there with my 3 towers. Well, the DTS10 is so freaking big that I axed that idea, because I was afraid of lopsided and/or incorrect diffraction effects, as it might very well act like a "wall" between two of my three speakers.

I can easily understand someone getting a JL over a huge TH. Also, I would bet a lot of money that there isn't a single interested AVSer who paid close to retail for JL subs of any kind, and particularly the Gotham.

I really did want more extension and output, and I got them both. I do believe I had to give up SQ to get there though. Cheers.

Oops, just no WOW factor from the F113 (or other models in their lineup). Nice looking units though;)

I'm coming from a F113 to a DTS10, and I think the former has better SQ. Yes, I already provided high Q, deep notches at 54 & 99hz, with my Crown BandManager software, ran MultEQ XT afterward, then little adjustment to personal preference. Double digit panels and extensive curtaining are all up before all that. The DTS10 no doubt beats it easily in terms of extension and output, but I still think the F113 sounds better. Just my subjective opinion with uncontrolled listening sessions. I assume the Gotham would sound at least as good as a F113.

Another benefit of having a smaller size, particularly footprint, is that there are more placement options in finding the best room interaction. The DTS10 is simply too freakin' heavy to even try for me. I already strained my back the first time. I don't know how one ascertains the best place to build the DTS10 into a wall. I highly doubt that any significant portion of AVSers are ready to tear down their walls to find the best placement. At 16" deep, I'm not sure I would want the sub's rear sticking out on the other side.

In fact, I just built a false wall and screen using DIY Seymour, and the original plan was to put the sub hidden behind there with my 3 towers. Well, the DTS10 is so freaking big that I axed that idea, because I was afraid of lopsided and/or incorrect diffraction effects, as it might very well act like a "wall" between two of my three speakers.

I can easily understand someone getting a JL over a huge TH. Also, I would bet a lot of money that there isn't a single interested AVSer who paid close to retail for JL subs of any kind, and particularly the Gotham.

I really did want more extension and output, and I got them both. I do believe I had to give up SQ to get there though. Cheers.Just put some of those carpet sliders underneath the DTS-10. It's a cinch to move around that way.

What I would add as further acoustic differences in favor of the SubMersive is the lack of dynamic compression across the entire operating range, where the F113 is breathing quite hard above 35Hz where the SubMersive just laughs that range off with huge headroom and greater HF extension afforded by the pair of separate drivers/VC/motors and much greater cone area. Another huge difference is the in-room extension observed. All of the Fathom subwoofers employ a high pass at some low frequency. There are benefits and detriments to this choice. It means you can push the sub a bit harder down low with the craziest of soundtracks, but it also means you can experience things with 1-4 SubMersives that most subwoofers won't even attempt, and I have repeatedly preferred the subjective effects this has in music listening.

I believe the SubMersive is a bit more elegant in employing the right parts to solve the problem, rather than the biggest and beefiest that can be found. Also, the SubMersive is a lot less expensive and you get so much more, there is really no comparison.;)

This post is simply copied from another forum by Mark Seaton. At least quote your source.

http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/post?id=3184523

I am sure that the Submersive is an awesome subwoofer, I have never heard one. By as far as decor is concerned and spouse approval (mine anyway) the fathom is the one I am saving my hard earned for. Your bashing of a product that is so highly reviewed and regarded is baffling.

I am not saying that in many aspects tha fathom can not be outperformed, but as far as a small attractive package with reasonable SPL and extension (yes plenty of subs may dig lower) the fathom is very good.

I don't think this was meant to be a comparison thread, but it's going down that road at the moment, so I'll throw in some experience. Not meant to be this vs. that, but just some interesting reading. Hopefully.

I own a pair of DTS10's and have a friend with a pair of F113's. His room is half the volume of mine. If running a balanced system and within comfort levels for most people, then they actually compare pretty closely. The differences are minor and only a sub nut with a fine tuned ear would note any. It's at "let's get crazy" levels that the Danley's separate themselves, and by some margin.

For the first six months of ownership, I was actually a bit embarrassed in explaining these behemoth's to my wife and friends. Performance was average at best. However, with the addition of some room treatment and placement tweaking, performance has simply gone way over the top. I would be surprised if even the most seasoned of sub aficionados would not be stunned at the performance. In addition, when available in kit form, I bet there's not much that could compete in terms of value (including DIY and IB).

The comparison doesn't make a lot of sense to me though. Are there people considering the two? They seem to play different roles with different advantages. Unless you have a convenient way to hide the Danley's (which is easy if you give it some imagination) then they aren't going to be an option for most. The JL's are beautiful, and that's where they step in. And again, if your room is average to small in size, you will never use the Danley's potential. I know what you're thinking....I like bass....I'll use the potential. Respectfully, no you will not! :)

All this to say, in my large room and my listening habits, I know I have the right solution. In my buddies room with his listening habits, he knows he has the right solution.

I had to turn mine up to -5 on Audyssey, and then run it at roughly -6 on the volume knob with the KFP skidoosh scene to make the clip lights come on on my DTS-10's amp. Just absolutely craploads of headroom and output! I never heard any straining, motor noise, compression or anything like that. This thing is a beast. (However, I did knock a bunch of stuff off the walls.)

While an absolutely stunning sub, there is no way a Gotham can come close to keeping up with that. I still think Tom Danley should have named it "The Juggernaut"!

If I had a strictly 2 channel setup I might look at something like an F113 or two. They would do nicely for that.