JL Audio Fathom 13" Sub [Text View] - Page 3

MusicFirst

11-11-06, 06:32 PM

16 Hz Tune 10% THD Ground Plane 2M:
16 Hz: 92.2 dB
18 Hz: 95.6 dB

Average SPL: 106 dB (101.2 dB Nousaine Method)

20 Hz Tune 10% THD Ground Plane 2M:
16 Hz: 89.5 dB
18 Hz: 100.7 dB (8.4% THD amp limited)
20 Hz: 102.8 dB (9.4% THD amp limited)
22 Hz: 104.9 dB (7.7% THD amp limited)
25 Hz: 106 dB (6.2% THD amp limited)
30 Hz: 109.5 dB (7.9% THD amp limited)
40 Hz: 113.1 dB
50 Hz: 112.2 dB

So, in 20Hz tune we have 102.8dB. Subtract 1dB and you still have higher output at lower THD.

An interesting point though is that neither the Ultra/2 or Plus/2 can be in both the 16Hz and 20Hz tune at the same time. From Craigs GP #'s the f113 hit 93.7dB at 16Hz. And while the Ultra/2 can hit 92.2dB at 16Hz in the 16Hz tune, it can only hit 94.8dB at 20Hz while in that same 16Hz config. Sure, it jumps to 102.8dB in the 20Hz tune, but your not going to swap settings in the middle of a movie. ;) You either get the extra added extension down low with sacraficing the added overall output or more output 20Hz and up. At least you have the choice though. But with the f113, you get good output down low as well as 20Hz and above. :cool:

drhack

11-11-06, 06:33 PM

You're probably missing the fact that AVTalk doesn't conduct single sine wave 10% THD limited output tests. They conduct sine wave sweep compression tests and simply record the THD at the same time.
Bosso

Got it - thanks. The reference to Ed's Ultra numbers makes it clear.

TheEAR

11-12-06, 08:39 PM

With all this debating going on in here,it is very funny to see people throw how many sealed SVS it would take to match a single f113. And how it can be cheaper to achieve the same or higher SPL with less money.

For starters JL Audio is not targetting the low end,or the budget limited buyer.These three subs are aimed at people with money and who want nothing short of the best.

The build quality,parts quality of the Fathom subs is well beyond anything from SVS or HSU or Klipsch,even better than the Velodyne HGS series. Just look at the amp and controller JL audio is using on the FATHOM and GOTHAM.Unlike anything less expensive,no more off the shelf rebadged amp plate.

The woofer is a custom JL design,a world class athlete. It outdisplaces anything the big competitors use save for TC Sounds monster woofers (LMS5400).

I have many subs ranging from the ultra compact Sunfire Super Junior passing by the Aerial SW12 to the Velo HGS18. And the f113 is the best built of them all(Aerial SW12 being in the same class I would say).

And sub bass quality is right up there with the HGS18 and Aerial SW12.The f113 disapears with my Dynaudio Contour S5.4's,only adding what the larger Dynes cannot reproduce(in my case I cut them at 40Hz).

An incredible product worth every penny,and this comes from a subwoofer fanatic who has seen,hear and owned(owns) the best.

I'll post pics when I ..make 5 posts. :)
http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/9346/jlf113frontxr2.th.jpg (http://img171.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jlf113frontxr2.jpg)

The little sealed SVS,it will take over two units to even begin to match a f113 down deep.The displacement of two Plus SVS woofers is too poor to outdisplace a single W7.

And in any case I am getting the f112 and the Gotham when it comes out. I am sold to JL Audio after experiencing first...Ear what the f113 can do.

swerveddy

11-12-06, 10:06 PM

Good to see you registered an acount EAR. Its about time! Welcome

ransac

11-12-06, 10:25 PM

TheEAR

11-12-06, 11:47 PM

Good to see you registered an acount EAR. Its about time! Welcome

Thanks,yes about time. When I saw this thread,how could I pass up? :)

TheEAR

11-12-06, 11:57 PM

The question isn't "Why do SVS subs get compared to these 'vastly superior' subs?", it's "Why do owners of these 'vastly superior' subs compare them to SVS subs?"

If the control panel is such a wonder, why do they hide it with the grill?

Because I don't think ANY speaker is worth $3k+, doesn't make me 'budget limited'.

There are those of us who value a value, no matter how low the price.

As far as the Fathom quality goes, time will tell.

SVS's Ultra lineup(TV12 woofers)is not inferior in sound quality,quite close in fact.
Each small step up in quality at this level will be costly.

Built quality,the JL is superior to the SVS Ultra,both are very high quality.

Why hide the control panel? And why expose after setup is done? You want flash in a dark HT room from LED's!!! Or leave the grill off.The fact is the JL quality matches Wilson Audio,like it or not.

You do not think any high end speaker/sub is worth a mere 3K! Good for you,many think it is and I think up to 40K is worth it when you get top of the mountain quality.For each reason why it is not worth for you I can give you many reasons why it is for me.

Value,who dislikes a great value.The f113 is a great value,its performance,quality makes it a great value at the full retail.Even better at a discount.

The only thing time will tell is how good is the durability of these quite new subs.

sivadselim

11-13-06, 12:13 AM

OMG

fear the ear :eek:

xcjago

11-13-06, 12:26 AM

What's going on Ear! This DVC-Jago from 3DSS. The f113 looks like one hell of a sub. I currently have a VTF-3 HO sitting next to me.

TheEAR

11-13-06, 12:39 AM

I see now where the people hang! Hiding in the vast expanses of AVS forums. ;)

Not fear TheEAR, accept the truth.Nothing more,and for the record I am not sold or a fanboy of any company. Not even my beloved (insert a bit of sarcasm) Dynaudio and Krell. :p

Back to JL

The f113 has no sonic signature,like the Aerial SW12 (minus the port noise at high SPL). I can listen low,loud and I do not have any fatigue,not thye case with a few known subs!

I would go out on a limb and say the f113 is like a higher quality Revel B15. And Both are priced about the same,the B15 being a very capable and fine subwoofer.
With the parametric EQ you can set ,the f113 with the auto calibration.

Since I have the sub I find myself listening to music,my collection of high bitrate MP3's and a few SACD's.The sub did not require any break in,will probably improve,out of the box it performs great.

Exocer

11-13-06, 12:43 AM

TheEar, Nice pic you posted! I go gaga over gloss black... (insert drool smiley here)

ssabripo

11-13-06, 08:38 AM

TheEar, Nice pic you posted! I go gaga over gloss black... (insert drool smiley here)
:eek: .....I hear ya Exo....you know what they say, once you go black.... :p :D

bfdtv

11-13-06, 10:42 AM

Can we get a few more pics of this subwoofer from different angles in a HT room?

TheEAR

11-13-06, 12:55 PM

Can we get a few more pics of this subwoofer from different angles in a HT room?

Yes,when I get home.At work now.

I have pics of the back,a beauty.The amp is unlike any amp plates you may find on competing products.The quality is astounding. The only sub with this level of fit and finish and pro execution is the Wilson Audio!

Even the Aerial's is not at this level !

Its a winner from any angle you look or listen :)

The people bashing this product with no hands and ears on experience are simply jealous.They know this is a must have sub if anyone is looking for a stellar sealed sub. Finding faults with the controls being hidden by the grill on the fron panel must rank way up there,as a cheap shot not even worthy of a laugh.

nethomas

11-13-06, 01:14 PM

If I knew how to post pictures on the forum, I would post some of my Fathoms along with the Salk Sounds I got at the same time. Can someone recommend a site or link to show me how to post pics on this thread? Thanks

Tim916

11-13-06, 01:19 PM

Because I don't think ANY speaker is worth $3k+, doesn't make me 'budget limited'.

I think that it makes you appear to be pretty close-minded. I think the JL looks like a pretty good value you when you consider all of what it offers. For many people, not having to listen to their SO constantly complain about that "big, ugly subwoofer" is definitely worth $3K.

swgiust

11-13-06, 02:37 PM

Is that SO
or HO ?? :D

ransac

11-13-06, 03:07 PM

I think that it makes you appear to be pretty close-minded. I think the JL looks like a pretty good value you when you consider all of what it offers. For many people, not having to listen to their SO constantly complain about that "big, ugly subwoofer" is definitely worth $3K.
I have one of those 'big, ugly subwoofers' and my wife has not complained once. I am not being close-minded, I just have my own priorities. That is why I made the comment in reference to me. I didn't say 'other people' or 'some people', even though I know it to be true. My point was that I can afford a $3k+ sub, I just don't feel the added performance the Fathom gives is worth it to me.

Exocer

11-13-06, 03:10 PM

Sherv, lmao... :p

If I knew how to post pictures on the forum, I would post some of my Fathoms along with the Salk Sounds I got at the same time. Can someone recommend a site or link to show me how to post pics on this thread? Thanks

www.photobucket.com

nethomas

11-13-06, 03:35 PM

Thanks Exocer

TheEAR

11-13-06, 08:41 PM

I have one of those 'big, ugly subwoofers' and my wife has not complained once. I am not being close-minded, I just have my own priorities. That is why I made the comment in reference to me. I didn't say 'other people' or 'some people', even though I know it to be true. My point was that I can afford a $3k+ sub, I just don't feel the added performance the Fathom gives is worth it to me.

So what exacly are you contributing to this thread? May I ask sire? :rolleyes:

We know you will not buy a Fathom or Gotham sub,your choice your money.

I know I will get the Gotham and at least one or two more f112 and f113. :) And help advise anyone who is looking for a terrific performer and built to a standard so far only Wilson Audio and Aerial measures up.

I have other priorities too :p

here a few pics of the f113 ...
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/7162/p1030568gd3.th.jpg (http://img172.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1030568gd3.jpg)

http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/8128/p1030562js7.th.jpg (http://img174.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1030562js7.jpg)

http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/9898/p1030574ho2.th.jpg (http://img120.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p1030574ho2.jpg)

Excuse the crappy pics,my skills are not world class.I ruin any pic I take. :p

Now pass me some Celldweller...lets punish some eardrums.

Tdekany

11-13-06, 08:50 PM

I just don't feel the added performance the Fathom gives is worth it to me.

Have you actually had a chance to hear it?

b curry

11-13-06, 09:17 PM

TheEAR, you need an f110 to round out the collection!

OMG the center and last photo looks like the f113 has caused your house to tip over on its side! ;)

xcjago

11-13-06, 09:44 PM

Good God Ear, you have 24 subwoofers??? LOL!!

TrzVpr

11-13-06, 09:54 PM

TheEAR

11-13-06, 09:55 PM

b curry,

Yes I know the little the f112 is comming,and the big JL will join these too.What a man to do,I need some walls flexing .

xcjago,

Yes 24 in all,most in the big room,this si my tiny room.With...11. :o next year I am adding 6-8 subs,including the Gotham,Anada,DD18 and some undecided yet.

Insane I tell ya,insane in the brain. :eek:

slybasil

11-13-06, 10:02 PM

Has far as I know the Fanthom come in any finish you would like. As long as its black. Gloss or matte.

happy owner of 2 gloss F113s

b curry

11-13-06, 10:23 PM

Originally posted by TrzVpr
Nice looking pics of the Gloss black but any pics of the other finish?...

I have the Matte finish. It's as smooth as the the High Gloss black. It does tend to reflect less light. That's why I got it as it's in a dedicated HT near the screen. I tried to photograph it, but it doesn't look that much different from the Gloss in the photo.

TJEli

11-14-06, 09:17 AM

Nice looking pics of the Gloss black but any pics of the other finish? Just curious as I think I would pass on the gloss black.. And im not just saying that BTW, I AM considering purchasing a F113 or two =)

FWIW... the prices I am getting for the F113s only have a $50 difference between finishes.

-Eli

ssabripo

11-14-06, 09:20 AM

http://smiliesftw.com/x/ohsnap1.gif

Eli, you selling the the "twins" and going with the Fathoms?! Dayum! nice!!!!

MusicFirst

11-14-06, 06:20 PM

As an aside, these thank you notes are not an indication of ending the testing - just wanted to thank people before forgetting ... :D
Are there any other tests happening at the moment, objective or subjective?

Thanks,
MF

craigsub

11-15-06, 07:28 PM

Are there any other tests happening at the moment, objective or subjective?

Thanks,
MF

We are waiting for the arrival of 1. Mark Seaton's SUBmersive and 2. AV123's Mark Seaton designed BMF ...

I "think" the SUBmersive will arrive by early December ... and the BMF in early 2007.

Right now, the Fathom has the "benchmark" status, with it receiving 106 points against the Velodyne's 100 points as the previous benchmark.

However, before completing the write-up, it seemed prudent to wait for the 2 other offerings.

DrewB

11-15-06, 07:43 PM

We are waiting for the arrival of 1. Mark Seaton's SUBmersive and 2. AV123's Mark Seaton designed BMF ...

I thought you were planning on doing some comparisons with single or dual VTF-HO's this past weekend? :confused:

Richard Mayer

11-15-06, 08:08 PM

This weekend, your 113 will get a one on one with the VTF-3 HO, then it will get a week against the DD-18.

May the best subwoofer win ... :)
So did this already happen? :confused:

It would be interesting to hear some subjective F113 vs. DD18 stuff too. Also if the F113 gets 106 points, how much does the F112 get, maybe around 100?

craigsub

11-15-06, 08:18 PM

TheEAR

11-15-06, 08:44 PM

Good keep the info comming Craig,I will be very interested to see the final results.

The comparo needs a few more subs. To give a full perspective.

DNbass

11-15-06, 08:54 PM

We ended up at an all day swim meet on Saturday, with no time to do much in the way of comparisons ... Look for a lot of followup, especially over the 5 day holiday weekend.

The 112 was about a 95 ... As a reminder, the Maestro was a 97, and the DD-18 a 100.... and the PB12-Ultra a 90.

As others have echoed, thanks for the data that you provide. I realize it's not top on this list, but any chance you could test and/or extrapolate how the P'digm Reference Servo (v2) would stack here?

TheEAR

11-15-06, 10:44 PM

Just chiming in on the subs that should be in this massive test. Not they have as each additional sub is a hassle and additional work load(and fun testing it ;) ) .

Paradigm Servo 15 (original unit,400W RMS amp)
Paradigm Servo 15(latest version,1.6Kw amp,new driver)
Paradigm Seismic 12

Revel B15
Revel Ultima Sub

B&W ASW4000(or newer replacement,15" woofer)

Sunfire Signature EQ
Sunfire Solitaire 12

Velodyne DD12/15 (if they were I missed them)
Velodyne SPL1200 and new SPL1500

The rest of the subs tested is great,the reemaining not popular to the point of testing.

Jrunr

11-16-06, 03:30 AM

rachurch

11-16-06, 05:27 AM

Would the Fathom 112 be enough for a 1600 cubic foot room (20x11x7) or would I get more from the 113? The room is 99% movies. Also, is it ok to point the woofer to the side or does it have to point toward the listening area?

Thanks,
Rich

craigsub

11-16-06, 07:02 AM

Rich ... The 112 would be very potent in a 1600^3 foot room, but if the extra $$$$ are not a problem, then go with the 113. You can never have too much bass ... :)

The Ear and Junr - The DD-15 sounds identical to a DD-18, it just won't play quite as loud. It would be fun to add the Revel and Paradigm at a later date.

MusicFirst

11-16-06, 12:47 PM

We are waiting for the arrival of 1. Mark Seaton's SUBmersive and 2. AV123's Mark Seaton designed BMF ...

I "think" the SUBmersive will arrive by early December ... and the BMF in early 2007.

Right now, the Fathom has the "benchmark" status, with it receiving 106 points against the Velodyne's 100 points as the previous benchmark.

However, before completing the write-up, it seemed prudent to wait for the 2 other offerings.

Cool, thanks for the heads up and for all this testing you are doing. It's very helpful! I'm getting a f113 to test out myself next week in my home. Can't wait!

MF

TheEAR

11-16-06, 01:30 PM

tzucc

11-17-06, 04:25 AM

btw, where is Seaton these days? I invited him to demo his subs at our meet this weekend, but emails to Mark are seemingly going into a black hole. I take it his subs aren't quite ready yet?

vitod

11-17-06, 04:39 PM

John, I think your post will be better addressed if you started your own tread. This one is a discussion on the Fanthom 113. Don't get upset if I did, just trying to help.

TheEAR

11-17-06, 04:59 PM

Johnny,

I have a RT-10d and the f113,a JL Audio sub VS Klipsch any day. Not just question of SPL,but quality and integration.

The RT-12 will have more output than the RT-10d,still the f113 by a landslide.

johnlarsen

11-17-06, 05:18 PM

These JL subs are almost like my dream come true subs. gotham especially, it is awe inspire!!!!!!

TheEAR

11-18-06, 09:09 PM

Hey people,post some pics of your JL Audio subs.Lets keep this thread alive. :)

Who will buy a GOTHAM? I know I will :D

Johnny Canuck1

11-18-06, 09:55 PM

John, I think your post will be better addressed if you started your own tread. This one is a discussion on the Fanthom 113. Don't get upset if I did, just trying to help.

You are right about that sorry, comparisons would be fine but my question should be in a different thread.

What I will ask then is 1 Fathom 113 suitable for this room or do I need 2 X Fathoom 112 (or 113's):

My living room size is 2933 cubic feet (ceiling is 8 feet high).

[Lastly, there are 2 doorways (With sliding doors) leading into the room that I can't control so while the room volume is just under 3000 cubic feet I know that the bass situation isn't ideal since the room isn't sealed...]

Thanks

nethomas

11-18-06, 10:53 PM

Johnny my room is about 3200cu. ft. and I run two of the F113s. They are more than enough and frankly, I could probably get by with one. But, I wanted two. The Gotham will fill the nich of very beautiful and expensive sub for those that demand it. Manville told me that I would be better served with two Fathoms. Plus they are available now and the gotham won't be here until around July '07.

b curry

11-18-06, 11:36 PM

Johnny, I have one in about the same size room. It does the job quite nicely. While I would love to have two, too much is never enough, it's really not necessary.

I would suggest you try one first. Its gonna knock your socks off!

Johnny Canuck1

11-19-06, 02:33 AM

nethomas and bcurry thanks for the info!

I think I'll go with one for starters and go from there (since my budget at this time would only allow me to purchase one anyways).

Thanks.

goalgoal

11-19-06, 11:22 AM

Does anybody know whether f113 has 220V version for European or Asian countries??

ransac

11-19-06, 12:50 PM

Does anybody know whether f113 has 220V version for European or Asian countries??
See post #116 in this thread. According to Manville Smith from JL Audio, they do not have a 230V 50Hz version, yet.

TheEAR

11-22-06, 11:51 PM

Just added a f112. JL Audio subs are nothing short of world class,perfect match with Thiel,Dyanudio and Totem :) Probably any quality deserving refined sub bass.

REL...what is that? Who needs a REL when you have a JL Audio? Not me :p

In fact both REl and JL Audio subs share a common trait,they integrate perfectly with ease,getting out of the way.Only the JL Audio uses a better driver,more capable amp and can play at levels no REL even slightly larger can compete.

TrzVpr

11-24-06, 01:29 AM

TheEAR

11-24-06, 07:55 AM

How well would a F112 or F113 integrate with Paradigms Millenia speakers? Millenia 300 as fronts, Millenia 30 as centers and Millenia 20's or ADPs as rears? Would this sub be overkill for these type speakers or make them comparable to Studio series floorstanders.

Havent quite decided between the paradigm millenias or Studios, the Jl being the sub im going to pair them up with.

Get the Paradigm Studio in place of the Millenia,you can cut the sub much lower and have a better integration.

Both JL's will integrate to perefection with the Studio series.The Millenia,I simply do not like mains that cannot have proper output down to 40Hz.You have to cut them higher,and the localisation of the sub becomes an issue.

HTM1D450mb

11-26-06, 04:53 PM

If the F13 uses a 13w7 driver could I put two these built into the corners of rear wall (Ridgid fiberglass and 2x4in front of cement blocks ) and drive them with my classe ca 300 and use a Velodyne SMS-1 parametric equalizer to control them? The rest of the system is B&W 802d with HTM1d and a Cary Cinema 6, VTL and Conrad johnson Amps . My room is 13x16x7 . Would this work? I sheetrocked off the corners already for sound and do have a couple extra lines run. Just a thought. Would it be close or not even?
Thanks Craig

b curry

11-26-06, 05:27 PM

Yes, you could do that. But I don't think it will be the same.

The f113 13w7 is not the same driver as the car audio 13w7 per JL Audio. You can find more information on JL's web site. The f113 also uses a JL designed 2500 watt amplifier as well as their own A.R.O. (Automatic Room Correction).

So, my money would be on the not even close bet.

One f113 would be killer in your room size.

HTM1D450mb

11-26-06, 09:43 PM

TrzVpr

11-26-06, 09:52 PM

These questions have been answered in THIS thread, you just need to READ the whole thread...

I know its long, 19+ pages but the answer is here..

TJEli

11-26-06, 09:58 PM

How is it modified? Looks like the same woofer visually. I think the sms would give me more flexibility than the single band peq (A.R.O) on the f113. The ca 300 will put out 1700 w at 4 ohm so that should plenty at 3ohm. I would still have to figure how to vent it back out of the wall. The walls are double sheetrocked and stuffed with owens corning 705. Might be worth a experiment. I already have the amp. And either way the SMS might be a nice upgrade for the F113 and if dont like the results I could make the corners bass traps and upgrade the Alpine in the car or dump it on ebay. What else is missing seems too easy? I think I can set the crossovers with the cary cinema 6 or the sms. Anybody know what are the differences or changes where made if any in the woofer in the f113 and the 13w7?

You can sure give it a try but I do not think it will perform like the Fathoms. JL designed the entire package from the ground up to work the way they wanted it to. Every component of it. The A.R.O. is not the only signal processing going on in the amp I assure you. Also, if you plan to make it a sealed alignment like the Fathoms are, there is no way on earth that drywall is going to hold the pressure.

-Eli

msmith_JL

11-26-06, 10:05 PM

HTM1D450mb...

The magnet is substantially larger (more powerful), the t-yoke is different, the top-plate is different and the voice coil is different. Only the basket, suspension and cone assembly are shared with the car version.

If you want to see them side by side you can go here
http://home.jlaudio.com/multimedia_pages.php?page_id=15#
and click on "Loudspeaker Technology"

Another thing that needs to be considered is the signal processing applied inside the Fathom (apart from A.R.O.) to flatten the response and optimize the overall design. A.R.O. is a very effective tool for dealing with the room's acoustics but is not the only equalizer in play.

That being said, I'm sure a fantastic HT subwoofer could be designed using our standard car audio 13W7, but it would need a bigger enclosure, a very powerful amplifier and some careful attention to eq and box design to achieve comparable results to the f113. I'm not sure it would be less expensive, either. But, if you want to do it, it could be a fun and rewarding project.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

gotchaforce

11-26-06, 10:26 PM

HTM1D450mb

11-26-06, 10:51 PM

Are the drivers the same in the Gothom and the Fathom do they both have the 4'' excursion?
I quess I can sell the ca 300 and put it towards a new Fathom. Thanks Craig

TheEAR

11-27-06, 12:23 AM

Both f113 and Gotham use woofers with a more potent motor in every way,compared to the impressive classic W7!

A heck of a woofer,one that outdisplaces even ubber 15" woofers the competition makes! Competitors have to resort to using dual 15" woofers to move this much air(compared to a single JL)!

Cannot wait for the GOTHAM :D

Now please JL,release the ultimate sealed sub(Gotham) when it is ready,100% ready.

Willd

11-27-06, 12:54 AM

A heck of a woofer,one that outdisplaces even ubber 15" woofers the competition makes!

Who is this competition you speak of?

Exocer

11-27-06, 02:16 AM

What WillD said.

bossobass

11-27-06, 09:09 AM

What Will and Exo said.

Bosso

TheEAR

11-27-06, 09:19 AM

Who is this competition you speak of? ...MTX(JL's competition),TC Sounds(most models,save for the top of the line units)...the rest what competition?

If you are so kind point me to a woofer 15" and less(the JL is a 13.5")that out displaces the unit used in the GOTHAM and f113.

TJEli

11-27-06, 10:35 AM

TheEAR

11-27-06, 11:07 AM

I have no doubt that the JL subs are very very good, but some of the posts I am reading are taking it a little too far (IMHO). The W7 platform is a great driver but there is also more than one way to skin a cat.

Not knocking it, just tring to be realistic.

-Eli

Fair

Now I would like to have a list of drivers that outperform the woofers used in the f113 and Gotham.

Not only output,but quality! When contradicion arises there is a reason,so would those who contradict,please stand up and educate.

So far the ONLY company with tested,proven designs is TC Sounds.The rest,they A do not measure up or come with wild specs ,and specs alone mean very little.

Willd

11-27-06, 11:17 AM

Now I would like to have a list of drivers that outperform the woofers used in the f113 and Gotham.

Not only output,but quality!

Then will you only consider the linear p-p displacement, because if so, then the realm of what "competes" with the JL driver grows immensely.

new27

11-27-06, 11:39 AM

TheEAR,

Are you into car audio also?

theranman

11-27-06, 11:39 AM

Linear p-p is obviously the most important factor to measure, but it's also fun to have that extra wobble for the Pod Race scene. :)

Willd

11-27-06, 12:15 PM

Linear p-p is obviously the most important factor to measure, but it's also fun to have that extra wobble for the Pod Race scene.

Without a doubt, I agree. The extra excursion available is very important and excellent to have, but I believe some consistency when comparing drivers is necessary...thats all.

theranman

11-27-06, 12:44 PM

TheEAR

11-27-06, 03:31 PM

I completely agree.

Side survey question:

What % of sub "afficianodos" never even push their subs outside of their performance envelope once they're done "toying" with those T-Rex footstomps, and dial back the sub to match the mains??? I bet very few.

A lot of these discussions are merely academic, but I won't deny that they're fun. I use a DD-12 in my 3500ft³ living/dining room, and it's MORE than enough for my listening habits. Doesn't mean it wouldn't be fun replacing it with an F110 just to feel the difference (if?), but do I feel the NEED???...absolutely not. :)

DD12 retails for $3000...or close.To replace the DD12 you should look at the f113,a more fair comparo(price wise),as both are around 3K.

DD12 VS f113,I fear for the DD12.It gets outdisplaced several times over.Plus the extra energu the f113 brings to the table,more output at 16Hz than the DD12 has at 25Hz!

TheEAR

11-27-06, 03:34 PM

TheEAR,

Are you into car audio also?

No,I do not see any reason to spend big on car audio. In a car you drive,and enjoy the ride,not music.Same with portables,I have three iPod MP3 players and b=never used one on the road! :p

It is fun and easy to obtain insane SPL in a car,the acoustics in a car inflate response down low.Plus with the minute internal volume,very easy to create a health hazard with high SPL.Not my bag

At home it is where it is at

TheEAR

11-27-06, 04:26 PM

wje

11-27-06, 04:32 PM

No,I do not see any reason to spend big on car audio. In a car you drive,and enjoy the ride,not music.Same with portables,I have three iPod MP3 players and b=never used one on the road! :p

It is fun and easy to obtain insane SPL in a car,the acoustics in a car inflate response down low.Plus with the minute internal volume,very easy to create a health hazard with high SPL.Not my bag

At home it is where it is at
Agreed. I loved car audio ... when the car was in my driveway. When I left the house:

1) The audio was a bit hard to separate from some of the road and traffic noise.

and,

2) When the car was parked in a parking garage, I feared that my gear would get yanked.

Now, I just suffer with the OEM gear that comes with the car.

theranman

11-27-06, 05:39 PM

Ran,

A reality check,hardly.

Street price,in this case why not look at the street price of an f112 or f113? Nobody sane pays full retail,I know I did not on my f112 and f113.

You counter in your post what a good sub is supposed to be,it should deliver realistic output down to 16hz.Looking at the measured performance Craig posted compared against a DD18 that costs a good deal more.

Value wise the f112 and f113 have a better price/performance ratio.

Velodyne HGS/DD series are no slouches,heck I have a HGS18 and it is a keeper,I will not sell mine even if someone paid me what I paid for it new!

Yes it is true to say output beyond a certain point is not usable,who listens at 110dB? Half deaf people? Not even,most of the time 80-100dB is all anyone sane needs to fully enjoy music.

Sorry, Ear, but I never defined what a "good" sub is supposed to be, let alone suggest that it should be able to produce "realistic" 16hz output. I would never say any such thing. To the contrary, depending upon how you define "realistic", I would suggest that ANY sub capable of reproducing a sustained (even for a second or two) 16hz tone or sine wave is probably among the Best of the Best, not just "good". Without getting into a silly DD-12 vs. F113 debate, THIS is what I should have said about the DD-12;

$1800 street price

Does darn well down into the mid-upper 20's in my
large listening space.

Is considerably smaller (higher WAF)

Is considerably easier to move around the room.

Has an 8 band peq and video interface.

Face it, for 99% of what subs are used for, the DD-12 fits the bill. It's only when you're fishing for near infrasonic sound that the likes of a Fathom make a noticeable difference. Otherwise, you're just paying $$$ for unused overhead.
For some, it's worth it. For me, naah.

I listen to music and movies at sane listening (a little loud) levels, and don't constantly replay special effects scenes over and over. Sure, it's fun to impress guests when they come over, but the added tactile sensation of a Fathom can be more easily accomplished by the addition of a Buttkicker. Just my humble opinion.

If the Fathom 113 was quite a bit smaller and lighter, I might be interested, but at my age, a 130lb sub has "misery" written all over it.
As for price to performance ratio, I admit that the Fathom "seems" to be the better deal, but it's not a no-brainer decision for everybody. Different folks, different priorities.

Hugs

TheEAR

11-27-06, 05:57 PM

Ran,

Well I cannot say the DD12 is not a great sub,because it is.The finest very very compact sub(all things considered,auto EQ among others),yes the f113 is not a lighweight :p Who can say 130 lbs is light?

This is the problem with designs being less restricted by price,the cabinet/woofer/amp will be very heavy and a major negative when considering one. I have to admit the f113 is a back breaker,but then again I have amps that weigh more,50lbs more! And 15W OTL monoblocks that weigh more than most multichannel power amps.

These products are designed for the less sane people who want a bit of overkill.Like with any high end gear,overdoing it is where it is at. ;)

Richard Mayer

11-27-06, 06:11 PM

Alright so after many long months of waiting we received our demo unit JL Audio Fathom single 13". This is the sub to beat. It will no doubt make Velodyne take their DD series back to the drawing board.

This sub is not only better for home theater-type bass than a DD15, it is fast and responsive like a REL. Our DD12 sounded muddy and weak compared to the Fathom. JL Audio will have lots of success with home audio products if this is a sign of things to come.

Anyone in the Southern California area, can pm me if interested in demo'ing at our shop or in your home. I will try to get some pics up in the next few days.
Don't forget the OP's post. ;)

Pete

11-27-06, 08:02 PM

Wouldn't the JL f110 or f112 be the logical JL models to compare to the DD12?

TheEAR

11-27-06, 09:09 PM

Wouldn't the JL f110 or f112 be the logical JL models to compare to the DD12?

Yes they would.

Remember an f113 >>> DD18/HGS18 ;) Clearly JL Audio has a winner in the first outing.

Lets see how the GOTHAM does VS the 1812. :p

theranman

11-27-06, 09:53 PM

Wouldn't the JL f110 or f112 be the logical JL models to compare to the DD12?

I would be rather curious to see a comparo between the F110 and DD-12. I suspect that the F110 might have a little more spl down low, but then again, the box size is significantly larger.

John Schneider

11-27-06, 11:17 PM

Can anybody recommend a GOOD place to listen to an f113? (greater SoCal)

I recently had a conference to attend in Costa Mesa, and knew I'd have time to kill. I went to the Jl website and got the address of an authorized dealer that carried the Home Theater line. Imagine my surprise when I found the place and I pulled up in front of a car steteo shop. Decided to go in anyway. Unfortunately, I forgot to bring anything good along. They pulled out Blackhawk Down ("with all those helicopters, I'm sure there's something good"). I listened for awhile, but was underwhelmed to say the least. The setup they had was mediocre to poor, the source was not impressive, and the salesmen didn't seem familiar with home theater at all.

I'd like to give it another shot, and I'll take something along next time, but does anybody know (for certain) of a good setup that I won't be wasting my time at?

TJEli

11-27-06, 11:24 PM

I would be rather curious to see a comparo between the F110 and DD-12. I suspect that the F110 might have a little more spl down low, but then again, the box size is significantly larger.

Do we know how big the F110 is going to be yet? I bet it will be comparable in size to the DD12.

-Eli

ransac

11-27-06, 11:53 PM

Can anybody recommend a GOOD place to listen to an f113? (greater SoCal)
Send a PM to AudioArchitect, the OP for this thread. He appears to be a dealer in San Diego, but is offering to demo in your home. See post #1.

theranman

11-28-06, 12:25 AM

Do we know how big the F110 is going to be yet? I bet it will be comparable in size to the DD12.

-Eli

Well, if you define "comparable" as roughly equal, I'd like to take you up on your bet, but I doubt you'd be willing to ante up more than 10¢? ;)

John Schneider

11-28-06, 12:38 AM

Send a PM to AudioArchitect, the OP for this thread. He appears to be a dealer in San Diego, but is offering to demo in your home. See post #1.
Sent a pm. Thank you.

Of course, now I feel pretty stupid for not reading the FIRST POST! :o

b curry

11-28-06, 11:14 AM

f110

Specifications:
Enclosure Type: Sealed
Driver: Single 10-inch (nominal diameter)
Effective Piston Area: 60 square inches
Effective Displacement: 160 cu.in. (2.6 liters)
Amplifier Power: 900 Watts RMS short-term
Dimensions (H x W x D), including feet and grille:
15.64 inches x 12.92 inches x 17.27 inches
(397 mm x 328 mm x 439 mm)

theranman

11-28-06, 12:08 PM

Seems like the F110 is only 11% larger than the DD-12...quite interesting.

Still, it seems intuitive that at my "normal" listening levels, the F110 would be working harder than the DD-12. Simple math, right? I'm guessing that only at the extremes would the F110 have more oomph...and that has yet to be quantified. Fascinating subwoofers, those Fathoms. :)

theranman

11-28-06, 12:19 PM

Now that I think about it, even IF I felt compelled to switch, I'd HAVE to get an SMS-1. All told, I think the DD-12 is the better solution for me.

TJEli

11-28-06, 01:03 PM

Now that I think about it, even IF I felt compelled to switch, I'd HAVE to get an SMS-1.

Why? from all initial reports, the A.R.O. works pretty well on the Fathoms.

nethomas

11-28-06, 01:43 PM

After setting up my twin F113s and using the ARO, I just sold my SMS-1. I didn't feel I needed it.

Pete

11-28-06, 01:59 PM

TheEAR

11-28-06, 03:37 PM

What does "working harder" mean? It has more than enough amplifier to get the work done that needs doing.

The woofer's piston has to move more to ...move the same amount of air the DD12's woofer will. Effective piston area x stroke .

In this case to be verified,since the W7 family of wofers has much greater cone travel capabilities compared to the woofers used by Velodyne in the DD series.

theranman

11-28-06, 04:50 PM

Why? from all initial reports, the A.R.O. works pretty well on the Fathoms.

The 8-band, fully adjustable peq of the SMS-1 is a bit more sophisticated. After using the one built into the DD-12, you'd understand why.

b curry

11-28-06, 04:58 PM

Once again, as stated early in this thread, I had a demo DD-12 in my home. Even with the SMS-1, it was not up to the f113 in sound quality in HT or music. Really, just no contest.

TheEAR

11-28-06, 05:01 PM

Once again, as stated early in this thread, I had a demo DD-12 in my home. Even with the SMS-1, it was not up to the f113 in sound quality in HT or music. Really, just no contest.

Agreed

No matter how complex the EQ(correction) is on the DD series it lacks the displacement of the Fathom lineup.

And as stated the quality is beyond the Velo too. Clearly

Some owners will try hard to diminish the JL subs,performance speaks louder than words. ;)

dnavarro77

11-28-06, 05:12 PM

TJEli

11-28-06, 05:39 PM

The 8-band, fully adjustable peq of the SMS-1 is a bit more sophisticated. After using the one built into the DD-12, you'd understand why.

I understand exactly what Velos DD eq does. My questions was, the purpose of these eqs is to flatten frequency response...... If the A.R.O. does a decent job of it, why would you NEED an SMS-1?

Different means to a similar end. The SMS-1 is more robust with its 8eqs but it sounds like the A.R.O. is working pretty good in typical rooms.

-Eli

nethomas

11-28-06, 05:56 PM

Let me repeat, I sold my SMS-1 after I got my subs set up with the ARO. The FR isn't perfect, but neither was the FR on my CS-Ultras with the SMS-1. I cross my Salk HT3 at 50Hz and I have a very good FR between 18-50Hz. In fact it is within +3Hz throughout that range. The only exception is at 27Hz I have a bump of about 5Hz. I don't think that's too bad.

Randybes

11-28-06, 06:06 PM

nethomas

11-28-06, 06:40 PM

I used the Room Ressonance tone on the anthem D1 and my SPL meter. Not the most accurate method, but close enough for me.

TheEAR

11-29-06, 11:22 AM

Any update on the Fathom F110's? I have a small room I would like to put one in. Not sure about the release date (or if available now). What is release date and MSRP?

I need to decide between an RT-12D or a F110....

D

Depends what you are looking for,the RT-12d will have more output down deep.The 13" woofer and dual PR's on the big Klipsch will out do a 10" W7 in a sealed cabinet.Here the huge cone travel of the small driver will not help,as the piston is too small.

If you want a music ,high end sealed for a small to mid size room.The f110 should be a better sub.

For HT and music in a larger room the RT-12d simply moves alot more air.And quality is still very good.

TJEli

11-29-06, 12:04 PM

My F113 just got delivered and is sitting here in my office. Hopefully if the weather isn't too bad here I can get it home tonight and play a little.

-Eli

nethomas

11-29-06, 12:18 PM

Somehow I knew you would end up with one!! Let us know what you think Eli.

Gene

TheEAR

11-29-06, 01:05 PM

My F113 just got delivered and is sitting here in my office. Hopefully if the weather isn't too bad here I can get it home tonight and play a little.

-Eli

Great more AVS members have JL subs. :) Post your impressions here when you can.

DrewB

11-29-06, 01:27 PM

You're gonna let the weather prevent you from hooking up a subwoofer? Are you planning to do GP measurements or something?

TJEli

11-29-06, 01:41 PM

You're gonna let the weather prevent you from hooking up a subwoofer? Are you planning to do GP measurements or something?

I have to get it home first and it is icing here. Pickup truck + ice = wet.

-Eli

DrewB

11-29-06, 01:46 PM

I have to get it home first and it is icing here. Pickup truck + ice = wet.

Back in the late 90's I recall driving on the other side of town in a pickup to collect my Velo in the middle of a Mn winter...it was not fun as the box was somewhat wet from snow when I got home. Sub was in perfect condition though! Good luck man, here's hoping that you get that sub hooked up and report back. :)

Pete

11-29-06, 01:47 PM

Bend your knees when you lift.

nethomas

11-29-06, 02:04 PM

Get help and BOTH of you bend your knees!!

HTM1D450mb

11-29-06, 07:20 PM

I bought two f112's last night and they are being delivered Sat morning . Delivery guys are going to unpack and place them where I want . I need help figuring out where to put them .My main room is 16x13x7 L shaped with a 12x8x7 area to the left of the front speaker. There is an i-beam separating the area from the main Ht .There is a 114 inch screen over the htm1d and between 802ds. The racks are toward the rear on the left side . The rear would be easiest so I dont half to run the cables all the way around the room. Or should I put one in the front and one in the rear opposite corner.Or Both up front outside the 802s or inbetween the 802 and the htm1d. Any suggestions where these would sound best or at least the best place to start would be appreciated. Thanks Craig

TheEAR

11-29-06, 07:52 PM

Get help and BOTH of you bend your knees!!

I unloaded the f113 alone,removed from the box not even using the ...flip...

My back hurts even today. :o

These subs are built like tanks.

TJEli

11-29-06, 08:02 PM

not too many pics in this thread yet. Here are some more...

http://www.wardlink.com/images/theater/fathom/box.jpg

http://www.wardlink.com/images/theater/fathom/1.jpg

http://www.wardlink.com/images/theater/fathom/2.jpg

http://www.wardlink.com/images/theater/fathom/mic.jpg

http://www.wardlink.com/images/theater/fathom/4.jpg

http://www.wardlink.com/images/theater/fathom/5.jpg

http://www.wardlink.com/images/theater/fathom/7.jpg

-Eli

jvgillow

11-29-06, 08:16 PM

Unboxing pics are the best kind. :)

So good somebody made a web site (http://www.unboxing.com/) just for them. Hehe.

ransac

11-29-06, 08:20 PM

Where's the Swiffer, Eli?

TheEAR

11-29-06, 08:28 PM

Pics cannot do justice to these subs,no pics. You need to see,feel these sub bass pumps at home to get a good idea what quality is all about.

High rez pics up close ,that is what JL should put on their website. Front and back.

ejones

11-29-06, 08:43 PM

TJEli

11-29-06, 09:27 PM

hey guys...I have been lurking for a long time and finally decided to sign up. I have a demo f113 in my theater right now sitting between a pair of B&W 703s. I have had some trouble with the ARO completing its setup. I had to move the mic to a few feet in front of the sub in order for it to complete. I am sure its setup is less than good. I seem to get much better base when I use the defeat button. I do not have the user manual so I am trying to figure out the best settings. I have the crossover set at 60 which should be ok but I am not sure about the ref/variable setting and how to get the ARO to set up. Also, how do you get the demo to work?

Thanks

Eric

OK, lets see.... To play the Demo (which is just 2 sweeps) hold down the Demo button for 2 seconds.

For the ARO setup...

Power to "On" not "Auto"
level to "variable"
crossover "off"
ELF trim "0"
Phase "0"

Plug in the mic and set your level on the sub just above 0. Press the calibrate button. You now have 5 seconds to get into your listening position. The sub will run a couple short tones to check level. If it stops and the green light blinks once per second, the level is too low. Raise the sub level and press calibrate again. If it stops and the green light flashes 3 times per second, the level is too high. Lower the level and repeat. Once the level is correct it will start some long sweeps for about 2 minutes. When it is done the calibrate light will stay constant green. After you are finished you will need to set the sub back to your reference level.

BTW... there is a PDF of the manual on JLs webpage.

-Eli

b curry

11-29-06, 09:29 PM

Turn the gain to 2 or 3 o'clock put the mic in "your spot" and and run ARO. You can reset the gain after you run ARO. Mine is at 10-11 o'clock crossed at 80Hz. The demo just runs the tones, a hearing exercise if you will.

I think you can down load the manual on the JL site.

Edit: Eli beat me to it. I had to set the gain a 2 o'clock to run ARO. Room size is 20'x12'x9'.

Djoel

11-29-06, 09:59 PM

Can the fathoms be purchased online, are there any authorized dealer? Sorry if this question has been address before....

Djoel

ejones

11-29-06, 10:04 PM

OK, lets see.... To play the Demo (which is just 2 sweeps) hold down the Demo button for 2 seconds.

For the ARO setup...

Power to "On" not "Auto"
level to "variable"
crossover "off"
ELF trim "0"
Phase "0"

Plug in the mic and set your level on the sub just above 0. Press the calibrate button. You now have 5 seconds to get into your listening position. The sub will run a couple short tones to check level. If it stops and the green light blinks once per second, the level is too low. Raise the sub level and press calibrate again. If it stops and the green light flashes 3 times per second, the level is too high. Lower the level and repeat. Once the level is correct it will start some long sweeps for about 2 minutes. When it is done the calibrate light will stay constant green. After you are finished you will need to set the sub back to your reference level.

BTW... there is a PDF of the manual on JLs webpage.

-Eli

thanks for the help. I did try to go to the site but the two days I tried it, it did not bring up the pdf when I selected it. Once again, thanks.

ejones

11-29-06, 10:07 PM

OK, lets see.... To play the Demo (which is just 2 sweeps) hold down the Demo button for 2 seconds.

For the ARO setup...

Power to "On" not "Auto"
level to "variable"
crossover "off"
ELF trim "0"
Phase "0"

Plug in the mic and set your level on the sub just above 0. Press the calibrate button. You now have 5 seconds to get into your listening position. The sub will run a couple short tones to check level. If it stops and the green light blinks once per second, the level is too low. Raise the sub level and press calibrate again. If it stops and the green light flashes 3 times per second, the level is too high. Lower the level and repeat. Once the level is correct it will start some long sweeps for about 2 minutes. When it is done the calibrate light will stay constant green. After you are finished you will need to set the sub back to your reference level.

BTW... there is a PDF of the manual on JLs webpage.

-Eli

for normal use, what should the sub be set on, ref or variable? what is this setting for? Can I also assume that defeat is basically overiding the ARO?

TJEli

11-29-06, 10:25 PM

for normal use, what should the sub be set on, ref or variable? what is this setting for? Can I also assume that defeat is basically overiding the ARO?

yes, defeat bypasses the ARO.

"Reference" locks the level at 0 (bypassing the level knob). The sub level can only be adjusted from your processor.

"Variable" allows you to control level at the sub as well using the level knob. (so you have 2 adjustments... precessor AND level knob at sub)

The manual states that "Reference" is useful if you have wandering fingers in your house that like to turn knobs at random.

-Eli

tomhahn

11-30-06, 01:55 AM

My room has 3250 cubic feet. (20'x18'x9').

Are two f113's overkill (budget aside) or is two always better than one?

Thanks.

gotchaforce

11-30-06, 02:04 AM

well one could easily fill that room

i would buy one and see if your content

TJEli

11-30-06, 08:57 AM

I am going to reserve most of my comments until I have had some time to listen. I still have not had things above -20 because I have a newborn in the house.

I do have a question for other JL owners though...

It seems like the "auto" on circuit requires a LOT of voltage to turn the sub on. I never had this issue with my SVSs. Their auto-sensing circuit worked perfectly. I really do not want to turn the sub level on my processor up much more than it is. I have the pro at -2.5db and that is calibrated for a "0" level on the sub. I tried it again this morning. I put on one of the XM dance channels to make sure there was bass signal and I had to turn the pro up to -20 before the sub would turn on.

Any comments?

-Eli

TheEAR

11-30-06, 10:22 AM

Eli,

No problems with the f112 or f113,both are on..AUTO ON.They wake up with no issues,I have them running from the Anthem Statement pre/pro.No problems to report.

b curry

11-30-06, 11:06 AM

Eli - AVM 20, no problems with auto on.

craigsub

11-30-06, 11:31 AM

The Bogg

11-30-06, 11:33 AM

msmith_JL

11-30-06, 11:41 AM

For dealers in Canada, please contact our Canadian Distributor:
GemSen Distribution
266 Applewood Cres.
Concord, Ontario L4K 4B4
Telephone: 905-660-3110

Email: sales@gemsen.com

TheEAR

11-30-06, 12:30 PM

Hi all,

been lurking here for a while. Live in Toronto - no JL dealer yet but I'm working on getting a pair of F113s after reading the reviews and all the helpful info here.

Hey TheEAR, I'd like to know where you got your JL Fathom from and what price to expect in Canada if you would be willing to divulge. You could contact me off the boards if you prefer. Any other Canadians - I'd be happy to hear from you too so I could know how hard to haggle!

BTW, TheEAR, are you a compulsive millionaire? 26 subs? Nice...do you have pics or a profile somewhere with the list of your subs?
thanks,
The Bogg

I got my JL Audio from Radio St-Hubert in Montreal(a small place of many many subs). Call them and say the Ear sends you,or Arthur the Sub Human. ;)

Yes I am a compulsive buyer,no not a millionaire...I spend at a rythm that will make almost anyone frown and run for cover. The subs are but a small tip of the iceberg! :p

If you want I can give you the phone number to Radio St-Hubert and you can ask to speak with the owner.I know him for many years and have made many many purchased there. :)

The Bogg

11-30-06, 03:17 PM

TheEAR,

I've sent you a PM

TheEAR

11-30-06, 04:50 PM

Bogg,

Repply done

The Bogg

11-30-06, 07:17 PM

thanks for the info EAR, I've just PMed one more question.

TJEli

11-30-06, 10:36 PM

I have not been able to do any reference level measurements in my room yet with the F113. What I can say so far is this........

The F113 is a very very nice piece of equipment. It is the best sounding subwoofer that I have ever had the opportunity to listen to. It is "tight", "fast", "clean", "insert more buzzwords here", and plays extremely low with authority. The only other subwoofers I have ever heard that were as "seamlessly accurate" as the Fathom are maybe the Velo DD series.

The Fathom is really playing mind games with me. I have designed, built, borrowed, and bought lots of speakers and subwoofers in my day. Every time I listen to the Fathom and look over at it, my mind tells me that there is NO WAY that that depth, clarity, and output should be coming from a box that small.

The single F113 is proving to be plenty for my 3600 cu. ft. room. I do not think it is going to be able to generate the same peak SPLs as my dual +/2s did. I should know more this weekend. Those SVSs (all the ones I have owned and heard) are fantastic and still my number one recommendation for the best price/performance ratio. I can't wait to hear the new Ultra because I am sure it is going to close the gap between them and some of these "higher end" subs.

JL must have hired a wizard to put a little magic in these subs because they really are a cut above. After spending some time with it, I can almost say that the price they charge is justified.

*** Sorry about all the words in quotes. Sometimes you have to be creative when trying to describe the sound of a speaker so take them for what they are worth***

Thats all for now,

-Eli

TheEAR

12-01-06, 01:42 AM

ejones

12-01-06, 01:57 AM

im the man

12-01-06, 02:00 AM

Hi guys Im new here to the forum. I recently, after reading great reviews on the f113 bought one, today in fact. I have it mated in opposite corner with an SVS PB 12/plus 2. Needless to say this thing is nothing short of incredible! The f113 in my short experinece is tighter, deeper, and more accurate than the SVS. Having said that I still love my SVS and wouldn't trade it in for the world. If you have the extra cash I would no doubt get an f113 3300.00 msrp. in piano black. But I personally still think, bang for buck the SVS is still the king in this department, an SVS PB 12/plus 2 is 1499.00 in piano black and 100.00 shipping.

TJEli

12-01-06, 08:57 AM

guys.....what is the street price of the 12 and 13 inch subs and how quickly can they be had. my local guy (who I have made wealthy) has seen a couple of prices. What can they actually be had for.

IF a PM is more appropriate please feel free.

Thanks

It is against forum policy to discuss anything but MSRP. (not to mention it causes problems for dealers)

If you are interested in buying one, you can PM me and I will send you my dealers contact info. You can discuss price directly with him.

Mine took about a week to get. When I ordered it it was still en route to my dealer from the JL factory. Then my dealer had to turn around and ship it to me.

-Eli

TJEli

12-01-06, 09:13 AM

Well said

These new JL subs are indeed little wonders of subwoofing.They compete with much larger subs in output,sound better and have built quality that is second to none!

No stoping JL Audio now. :p

And yes the price is justified! Take the real competition,priced around 2K,they are much larger,do not sound as good and use off the shelf plate amps(no matter how disguised) plus multiple woofers to match one! Are they real bargains? Not to me.

These units use expensive custom hardware,hardware quality most of the time you see in Thiel and Wilson subs.

I see no problem with using multiple drivers and "off the shelf" amps. Yea, i't might not be as "cool" but it is the end result we are after. If a manufacturer can use some less expensive parts, make the sub cost less to the consumer, and still acheive the performance they are shooting for, more power to them.

My impressions above are based on sound only. (and somewhat size) Yes, the build quality of the Fathom is first class... but I am also very impressed with with quality of SVS and HSU products.

I guess what I am trying to say is, with several new POTENT subs on the market (or getting ready to be on the market), lets close our eyes and open our ears a little more. I am willing to bet there is going to be some stiff competition for the Fathom in the next few months. (some may already be here). If performance is too close to call, then we can bicker over whos looks nicer. ;)

[/soapbox]

OK, back to the Fathom.

-Eli

goalgoal

12-01-06, 11:25 AM

I'm in regoin where 220v power is needed. Should I go for the 110v version with a step down transformer?? Is it a long term investment?? Any good suggestions of the transformer?? Thanks!!

RMK!

12-01-06, 03:53 PM

Having very little sales resistance, count me as the latest to succumb to the JL Audio feeding frenzy. I spent this morning setting up the Fathom 113 and putting it through it's paces. That included a sighted comparo side by side with my DD-18 on my fav LFE rich music and movies. Currently the two are happily playing the new Beatles "Love" DVD (A multichannel music lover’s wet dream).

The JL is an incredible little (everything’s relative) sub. It goes a bit lower and might be another bit more articulate than the DD-18. This is going to be a week or so of sampling music and movies with them together and separately but thus far I must concur that JL has a great product with the F113. I can only imagine how good the Gotham will be :eek:

im the man

12-01-06, 04:29 PM

I have had the f113 for almost 24 hours now. I now have everything set up properly the sub location etc. On my first Reference DVD, one of the things I noticed is that I could watch King Kong at relatively high levels without my ears feeling fatigued during the entire movie. With my SVS PB 12/2 ..., oh about an hour or so into the movie I had to turn the bass down because it became to overwhelming, almost distractive. This was not the case at all with f113.

TheEAR

12-01-06, 08:50 PM

The frenzy continues to sweep audiophiles. :) The funny part look at the size of the DD18 VS the little f113! This is a great pic RMK,the little beast has ALOT of bite!

Go JL Audio

mojomike

12-01-06, 09:20 PM

Go JL Audio

My goodness, Ear, you are the very definition of a fanboy. Not that there's anything wrong with that. :D

vinyl

12-01-06, 09:28 PM

With my SVS PB 12/2 ...,about an hour or so into the movie I had to turn the bass down because it became to overwhelming, almost distractive.

The novelty fades pretty quickly! High SPL levels alone will appeal to the uninitiated. The seasoned enthusiast armed with reference material will move on.

TrzVpr

12-01-06, 11:30 PM

My goodness, Ear, you are the very definition of a fanboy. Not that there's anything wrong with that. :D

Ha... I was just thinking that a couple of posts ago... :p

But Hey, Ear has had that many subs and is this passionate for the Fathom.. It must mean something...

Has Me sold.. Im going to buy one as soon as I can get 20% MSRP here in Southern California.. Hint Hint.. (Any Authorized dealers can go ahead and PM Me.. ) :D

TheEAR

12-01-06, 11:33 PM

My goodness, Ear, you are the very definition of a fanboy. Not that there's anything wrong with that. :D

Nothing too wrong supporting a company that has impressed the heck outta me with
reference class compact subs.I've tried almost all compact subs,JL has done a mervelous job with the Fathoms.

I will be giving props to any well deigned product that performs this well. ;)

hifisponge

12-02-06, 03:37 AM

I can honestly appreciate the technical prowess of these JL subs, and heck I even had more than a passing thought of replacing my Velodyne D15 with one of them, but I had a wake up call today.

You see, I completed my second AV room this week (converted my den into a 5.1 video game room) and just for kicks, I took the new sub out of the game room and placed it next to the DD15 in the main room (the room is 13 x 23 x 9). You know what? At anything but very loud listening levels the little sub held its own with the DD15. Keep in mind the game room sub (a Monitor Audio Radius 720) retails for $799, it uses two 8" drivers and a 250 watt amp. The DD15 is $4000, uses a 15" driver and a 1250 watt amp. The DD15 is probably capable of close to four times the output of the MA 720, yet at normal listening levels and even fairly loud listening levels the little sub sounded just as powerful punchy and weighty as the big one. You should also know that the 13 x 23 room is open to the rest of the house.

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, I just trying to provide some perspective on the importance of the output capability of the JL subs. Is anyone even using all of it? And do you really need it? I submit that most don't.

The bigger issue here is the quality of the bass rather than the max output. In that regard, I think because the DD line has the built in EQ, it still has the upper hand. Sure the Fathoms have notch filter, but what if you have more than one peak or a shallow valley you want to fill in? Anyway, in the end I think that many would be just fine with something like an SVS sub / Velodyne SMS-1 EQ combo versus a Fathom or a DD for that matter.

gotchaforce

12-02-06, 04:05 AM

HTM1D450mb

12-02-06, 09:13 AM

My two new F112s arrived one satin and one gloss I thought I was getting satin . Added bonus ,unless I am going to put them both up front. Any body have any idea how these sound best,Should I run dual cables fron a T or one cable and balance xlr daisy chain? Thanks Craig

DrewB

12-02-06, 09:18 AM

b curry

12-02-06, 10:53 AM

HTM1D450mb - daisy chain, master/slave, links the A.R.O.

b curry

12-02-06, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by hifisponge
I can honestly appreciate the technical prowess of these JL subs, and heck I even had more than a passing thought of replacing my Velodyne D15 with one of them, but I had a wake up call today.

You see, I completed my second AV room this week (converted my den into a 5.1 video game room) and just for kicks, I took the new sub out of the game room and placed it next to the DD15 in the main room (the room is 13 x 23 x 9). You know what? At anything but very loud listening levels the little sub held its own with the DD15. Keep in mind the game room sub (a Monitor Audio Radius 720) retails for $799, it uses two 8" drivers and a 250 watt amp. The DD15 is $4000, uses a 15" driver and a 1250 watt amp. The DD15 is probably capable of close to four times the output of the MA 720, yet at normal listening levels and even fairly loud listening levels the little sub sounded just as powerful punchy and weighty as the big one. You should also know that the 13 x 23 room is open to the rest of the house.The part your missing is that the f113 has more output than the DD-18 with an MSRP that's less than the DD-15 price you quote.

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade, I just trying to provide some perspective on the importance of the output capability of the JL subs. Is anyone even using all of it? And do you really need it? I submit that most don't.I would guess that most f113 owners are enjoying the parade with very good weather and lots of sunshine thank you very much! :)

The bigger issue here is the quality of the bass rather than the max output.I would agree 100% with you. Quality is most important for me too. If you refer to the OP here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=736243&page=1&pp=30) and read the thread you find that the OP is a dealer for both Velodyne and JL and states the sound quality of the f113 is better than the DD's. Other people in this thread as well as published reviews have had the same observations. IMO the quality is more accurate on the f113 regardless of volume level.

In that regard, I think because the DD line has the built in EQ, it still has the upper hand. Sure the Fathoms have notch filter, but what if you have more than one peak or a shallow valley you want to fill in? Anyway, in the end I think that many would be just fine with something like an SVS sub / Velodyne SMS-1 EQ combo versus a Fathom or a DD for that matter.Who woulda thunk...???

In this case it would seem the sum of JL's parts are equal to Velodyne's solution as one owner in this thread has sold his SMS-1 finding the ARO room control running two f113's to be as good as the SMS-1.

I agree "many would be just fine with something like an SVS sub / Velodyne SMS-1 EQ combo", but I think most who hear this "combo" or the DD's side by side with the f113 will choose the f113.

RMK!

12-02-06, 11:41 AM

TheEAR

12-02-06, 02:21 PM

Zissou

12-02-06, 03:19 PM

But when I look at all the factors like the Velo EQ, programmable/upgradeable software and remote control capability, these are features/factors that give an advantage to the DD series over any other sub I have owned.

Very well said.

TrzVpr

12-02-06, 03:53 PM

My two new F112s arrived one satin and one gloss

Would you be willing to take a picture of both of them side by side? This would be VERY useful for someone like me whose first prefrence is not the Piano Gloss. I would be nice to see the satin finish.

Thanks! :)

TJEli

12-02-06, 05:25 PM

I have not had a chance to run my fathom at reference level yet so I have no idea what max output is like. What I have been most impressed with is the sq. The sq even at very low volume is better than any sub I have ever listened to. The closest match I believe would be the DD series but the F113 edges them out a little bit in depth and clarity imho. The DDs are fantastic subwoofers none the less.

-Eli

TheEAR

12-02-06, 06:04 PM

HTM1D450mb

12-02-06, 09:21 PM

??? My head is starting Hurt

TheEAR

12-02-06, 10:01 PM

??? My head is starting Hurt

Gorgeous Nautilus center channel! Why why did I have to see this center again? Now I will have to get one,this is one MIGHTY center channel,and 801's with it.

The dual f112's look like mid bass add ons next to a center! :p WOW

Great system

im the man

12-02-06, 10:16 PM

TheEar, Im total agreement with you about the f113. I Was wondering out of your 30 subs what are your top 5 subs and why?

TheEAR

12-02-06, 10:29 PM

TheEar, Im total agreement with you about the f113. I Was wondering out of your 30 subs what are your top 5 subs and why?

My top five subwoofers(the ones I own)

1. JL Audio Fathom f113 best SQ ,all around amazing parts/built quality,high SPL and can dig deeeep small size or not! And priced low(for all you get!) Disapearing act(will not intrude on mains and compromise the musical message)!

2. Velodyne HGS18 very high SQ,good all around quality,can dig deep and do so at a very descent SPL (25Hz and below)

3. Aerial Acoustics SW12 very very high SQ,all around amazing quality(second only to JL),can dig deep and play at a satistisfactory SPL. Near disapearing act!
Had it more output would be number two

4. Revel B15 very good SQ,great built quality,a real powerhouse above 25Hz.

5. JL Audio f112 SQ almost matching the f113,like the f113 amazing built/parts quality. good SPL down deep. Disapearing act.

I have to get better subs,Danley,JL Gotham and what TC Sounds may launch ...what ever comes out that is worthy... :o

im the man

12-02-06, 10:48 PM

My top five subwoofers(the ones I own)

1. JL Audio Fathom f113 best SQ ,all around amazing parts/built quality,high SPL and can dig deeeep small size or not! And priced low(for all you get!) Disapearing act(will not intrude on mains and compromise the musical message)!

2. Velodyne HGS18 very high SQ,good all around quality,can dig deep and do so at a very descent SPL (25Hz and below)

3. Aerial Acoustics SW12 very very high SQ,all around amazing quality(second only to JL),can dig deep and play at a satistisfactory SPL. Near disapearing act!
Had it more output would be number two

4. Revel B15 very good SQ,great built quality,a real powerhouse above 25Hz.

5. JL Audio f112 SQ almost matching the f113,like the f113 amazing built/parts quality. good SPL down deep. Disapearing act.

I have to get better subs,Danley,JL Gotham and what TC Sounds may launch ...what ever comes out that is worthy... :o

Cool. I know you didn't ask me but I'll give you my opionion too. I have far less experience than you, but this is how I rate my top 5 in my humble experience.

1. F113, head and shoulders above the rest the longer I have had it the further it seperates itself from the others.

2. SVS PB/12 plus 2, I still maintain this is one of the best value subs in the market, and a month ago I would have said it was the best. Now it looks like the HSU turbo might hold that title, although I have never heard an HSU, the specs and reviews tell the story of this sub; head to head against the SVS's seems like people that have had them both prefer the HSU turbo over the SVS.

3. Klipssch RSW-15, nice sub but does not have the SPL or does it dig as deep as the one's I have previousely mentioned.

4. Paradigm Servo-15, just didn't keep up like I wanted it to. Servo's are very nice though.

5. Supercube Reference, OK for the money it cost.

Again, Im no expert, this just my VERY humble opinion for what it's worth.

bbrc

12-02-06, 11:03 PM

What would be the cost for the JL f113 and f112 in canada
if someone can pm me .

TheEAR in a other post you said that in janurary you
would part whit some subs if you sell some of them
i might be intrested.

Just pm me with the model you would like to sell :)

Moose3000

12-02-06, 11:13 PM

TheEAR

12-02-06, 11:46 PM

Does it improve output of the Fathom if you run two unbalanced cables from your sub out using a Y-connector to left and right input on the Fathom? I saw this in a setup today and I could not think of the rationale for doing this.

NO

The final max output will not change,any variations at the input can be compensated from the pre/pro and on the sub itself(gain).

TheEAR

12-02-06, 11:48 PM

bbrc,

You know I may have some subs,remind me in January,as I do have to sell some.I am swiming in gear and will have to empty the place a bit. :o The need for newer and experimentation is strong. :)

I have yet to decide what I will sell.Note,I am in Montrea Canada.Ideal sale,local sale.

Moose3000

12-03-06, 08:48 AM

TheEAR

12-03-06, 12:03 PM

Narrowed down my choices to the F112 and F113. Which one will be better for music reproduction? It is hard to judge in a demo room designed for home theater. I am told the F112 is faster because of the smaller size. Also I am trying to decide on satin versus gloss finish. I only saw the gloss. Is the satin the same quality hard finish with satin clear coat? Also is a sub unbalanced cable required or do standard high quality interconnects work just as well?

Nah nah and nah,the f112 is not faster at all. A real subwoofer works no higher than 80hz.And Below 80hz you will NEVER hear a difference in speed(gain or loss)going from a f112 to an f113.

The f113 is a better buy,more output,more headroom.Will dig a few Hz deeper with authority. Both are fantastic subs.

TJEli

12-03-06, 01:04 PM

I am told the F112 is faster because of the smaller size.

run away from whoever told you that.

Moose3000

12-03-06, 01:11 PM

TheEar/TJEli, Thanks for your comments. I will go with the F113. Can you address the other questions?

Also I am trying to decide on satin versus gloss finish. I only saw the gloss. Is the satin the same quality hard finish with satin clear coat? Also is a sub unbalanced cable required or do standard high quality interconnects work just as well?

GaryMB

12-03-06, 02:32 PM

For dealers in Canada, please contact our Canadian Distributor:
GemSen Distribution
266 Applewood Cres.
Concord, Ontario L4K 4B4
Telephone: 905-660-3110

Email: sales@gemsen.comTo The Bogg, bbrc and other Canadians who might consider contacting GemSen, I would advise you to phone rather than e-mail. I e-mailed them a week ago and haven't heard a peep. I also e-mailed msmith_JL at the same time with a question regarding comparative performance of the f112 and f113 (he did provide his e-mail address earlier in this thread) and have yet to receive a reply, even to suggest that I should redirect my inquiry to someone else in the company.

For someone who has become accustomed to the internet-direct model (Ascend, SVS, ACI among others) this level of responsiveness to a potential customer by a B&M-based company, especially one who posts this (http://home.jlaudio.com/jlaudio_pages.php?page_id=10) on its website, is certainly somewhat sobering, fabulous product or not...

TheEAR

12-03-06, 04:45 PM

b curry

12-03-06, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by Moose3000
...Also I am trying to decide on satin versus gloss finish. I only saw the gloss. Is the satin the same quality hard finish with satin clear coat?...Yes, I don't know if it's clear coat or a poly-acrylic of some sort. The finish is every bit as smooth and nice as the gloss, just not as reflective. Mine is in the front of the HT and I didn't want to pick up light glare/reflection from the screen. You will wish your car had a finish as nice as this.

JL recommends Mequiar's wax and microfiber cloths for cleaning. The Fathoms also come with a pair of white cotton gloves for unpacking etc.

dave_gemsen

12-04-06, 11:24 AM

To The Bogg, bbrc and other Canadians who might consider contacting GemSen, I would advise you to phone rather than e-mail.

Hi Gary,
I've sent you an email this morning. and during the last week or so I've spoken with the The Bogg, many many times. I believe theres a few members here I've called on the weekends as well to make sure they were being taken care of and would be happy to work with you personally if you wish. Email sometimes does have it's glitches when it comes to spam filtering and for situations like that I apologize.

Canada is a little behind the USA in terms of having dealers already in place since meeting CSA standards were an important necessity for JL AUDIO, a task often overlooked. JL AUDIO did a great job getting through this slow process rather quickly and now it's time to for us to play a bit of catch up with Canadian Retailers who understandably take a considerable amount of time deciding on products and business partners.

For anyone on the forum who has and inquiries I always welcome emails and phone calls as well:

My direct contact info is:

Tel 905.660.3110 ext 239
Dave Singh
Gem-Sen

Unfortunately the forum is preventing me from posting my email adress at this time but it is linked to my profile.

RMK!

12-04-06, 01:28 PM

Lets put one thing to rest,the f113 produces higher quality sub bass than any HGS/DD Velo sub.

I have an HGS18,it is a mighty refined subwoofer,good output and well rounded performer,the f113 outclasses it. From output,passing by sub bass quality to built quality! There is no other way around this...the Fathom subs are best of class.

And yes I enjoy being part of the JL owners parade. :D f113 and f112 style :p

Well you know what they say about opinions, don't you? ;)

I did some extensive side by side between the F113 and the DD-18 this weekend. With music, the F113 is every bit as clean and articulate as the DD-18 with perhaps a very slight edge going to the Fathom. But on movies, the DD-18 provides a more visceral experience. I used all of my favorite (and familiar) demo material WOTW, Master & Commander, UB 571, Pearl Harbor attack sequence and Titan AE and the DD-18 was consistently more powerful (room shaking) at all locations in my very large and open space. My room has carpet over slab and the DD-18 simply shakes the foundations and furniture more than the F113 does. I have no doubt that the F113 extends a bit lower but I have found that most LFE is 20HZ and above and that is where the DD-18 shines. I used the same settings on my Parasound Pre and the subs are in virtually the same location. At this point I have to think it is the driver size and or the Velo EQ that makes the difference. I found that the F113's ARO lessened its output and it sounded better when I used the defeat.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the F113. It is a very well made subwoofer and if I didn't already have the DD-18, I might consider the F113 due to its smaller size. But in considering the street prices of the DD-18's and the fact that I would have to purchase an SMS-1 to EQ the Fathom, the price issue becomes a moot point.

Disclaimer, with all the variables at play here, your experience may be different than mine. This was a listening test only. My observations were confirmed by my fiancé who tolerates my hobby because she really enjoys good quality HT :). I did not bring out the SPL meter or take any other form of measurements.

MusicFirst

12-04-06, 02:01 PM

Interesting RMK. Especially since Craig did some GP testing of the DD-18 and the f113 and found that not only did the f113 extend lower but beat it by a healty 6dB (almost 7dB) at 25 Hz! I'm wondering if you used the DD-18 EQ to optomize the f113 if your findings might be different. That or even the slightly different positions of the two subs also contributing to you finding the DD-18 being more powerful. The GP measurements really eliminates all that though. And 6dB difference is substantial at 25Hz (and should be easily noticed through listening tests). I mean that's like stacking two DD-18 to equal the f113 in output at that freq. FWIW, he also measured at 20Hz and 16Hz. At 20Hz the f113 beat the DD-18 by about 5dB, and at 16Hz by about 3dB.

Anyway, subjectively Craig also had a different take with the f113 being more powerful from what I recall, but you are the only two we have to go by as far as direct comparisons for the subjective portion. But the GP tests are pretty telling.
Though the dealer (also a Velo dealer) I bought my f113 from did tell me that he has a customer that also has both the DD-18 and the f113 (not Craig he says ;) ) says that in his opinion tha f113 has quite a bit more "slam" which he thought was attributed to the fact of the Servo control that the DD-18 uses.

Here is a link to that post earlier for the GP numbers: GP testing, DD-18 vs f113 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8834017&&#post8834017)

RMK!

12-04-06, 02:16 PM

I had seen Craigs report and that is why I decided to check out the F113 in my HT. Frankly, I was surprised by my results. Your thoughts on the Velo EQ and or the positioning may have been factors. I suppose without measurements, these impressions of mine are meaningless (hence my disclaimer). None the less, I heard what I heard and the results were clear cut enough for me to reach my conclusion. But I fully acknowledge the amateurish and subjective nature of my test. Caveat Emptor!

Interesting RMK. Especially since Craig did some GP testing of the DD-18 and the f113 and found that not only did the f113 extend lower but beat it by a healty 6dB (almost 7dB) at 25 Hz! I'm wondering if you used the DD-18 EQ to optomize the f113 if your findings might be different. That or even the slightly different positions of the two subs also contributing to you finding the DD-18 being more powerful. The GP measurements really eliminates all that though. And 6dB difference is substantial at 25Hz. I mean that's like stacking two DD-18 to equal the f113 in output at that freq. FWIW, he also measured at 20Hz and 16Hz. At 20Hz the f113 beat the DD-18 by about 5dB, and at 16Hz by about 3dB.

Anyway, subjectively Craig also had a different take with the f113 being more powerful from what I recall, but you are the only two we have to go by as far as direct comparisons for the subjective portion. But the GP tests are pretty telling.

Here is a link to that post earlier for the GP numbers: GP testing, DD-18 vs f113 (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=8834017&&#post8834017)

im the man

12-04-06, 02:16 PM

Well you know what they say about opinions, don't you? ;)

I did some extensive side by side between the F113 and the DD-18 this weekend. With music, the F113 is every bit as clean and articulate as the DD-18 with perhaps a very slight edge going to the Fathom. But on movies, the DD-18 provides a more visceral experience. I used all of my favorite (and familiar) demo material WOTW, Master & Commander, UB 571, Pearl Harbor attack sequence and Titan AE and the DD-18 was consistently more powerful (room shaking) at all locations in my very large and open space. My room has carpet over slab and the DD-18 simply shakes the foundations and furniture more than the F113 does. I have no doubt that the F113 extends a bit lower but I have found that most LFE is 20HZ and above and that is where the DD-18 shines. I used the same settings on my Parasound Pre and the subs are in virtually the same location. At this point I have to think it is the driver size and or the Velo EQ that makes the difference. I found that the F113's ARO lessened its output and it sounded better when I used the defeat.

Don't get me wrong, I really like the F113. It is a very well made subwoofer and if I didn't already have the DD-18, I might consider the F113 due to its smaller size. But in considering the street prices of the DD-18's and the fact that I would have to purchase an SMS-1 to EQ the Fathom, the price issue becomes a moot point.

Disclaimer, with all the variables at play here, your experience may be different than mine. This was a listening test only. My observations were confirmed by my fiancé who tolerates my hobby because she really enjoys good quality HT :). I did not bring out the SPL meter or take any other form of measurements.

All these test are somewhat subjective, what sounds good to you may not sound good to me. I have no experience with any of Velodyne DD series so I can not speak on that. But I will tell you this, I bought my F113 after reading reviews from Craigsub who has compared this sub directly to the DD18. This was Craig's reference Sub until the F113 came along and beat it. Craig shows some numbers as well, which is always a big plus. Also, TheEAR, who has more Subwoofers than anybody I know personally or have seen on any of these boards. He also maintained that F113 was better than the Velodynes. Then you have Randall Smith, from the Home Theater Authority, who's job is to test Subwoofers. Mr. Smith compared it to his reference SVS PB 12/plus 2, which by the way I have as well in the opposite corner of my room, and picked the F113 over the SVS. Coincidently, this became his new reference Subwoofer as well.

I think your review may be some what biased. I know when I spend that kinda of money on something, I wanna think I have the best too. Just like if the Submersive beats out the F113 I will still want to beleive I have the best sub in this price catergory, the 1-5k. So I try not to post on my personal opinions when it comes to comparing the equipment I have to other equipment because I know it would be biased as well. When I look for new equipment I look to people like Craigsub and TheEAR. People I know that are unbiased.

When your spending this kinda of money we are talking about, people deserve objective opinions not jaded or biased opinions.

DrewB

12-04-06, 02:19 PM

My vote is to bring on the double-blind testing with the heavy hitters and let the chips fall where they may.

TJEli

12-04-06, 02:40 PM

GaryMB

12-04-06, 02:43 PM

Hi Gary,
I've sent you an email this morning. and during the last week or so I've spoken with the The Bogg, many many times. I believe theres a few members here I've called on the weekends as well to make sure they were being taken care of and would be happy to work with you personally if you wish. Email sometimes does have it's glitches when it comes to spam filtering and for situations like that I apologize.

Canada is a little behind the USA in terms of having dealers already in place since meeting CSA standards were an important necessity for JL AUDIO, a task often overlooked. JL AUDIO did a great job getting through this slow process rather quickly and now it's time to for us to play a bit of catch up with Canadian Retailers who understandably take a considerable amount of time deciding on products and business partners.

For anyone on the forum who has and inquiries I always welcome emails and phone calls as well:

My direct contact info is:

Tel 905.660.3110 ext 239
Dave Singh
Gem-Sen

Unfortunately the forum is preventing me from posting my email adress at this time but it is linked to my profile.Thanks, Dave. In case my follow-up e-mail to you gets filtered as junk mail again, I enjoyed our conversation, and depending on what transpires locally with respect to potential dealers, I may well be in touch when the time is right. :)

GaryMB

12-04-06, 02:47 PM

Thanks RMK. I for one appreciate your input.

-EliAs do I. And it should be remembered that Craig's tests measure steady-state output. The DD-18's servos may well permit significantly higher short-term output than his measurements indicate.

MusicFirst

12-04-06, 02:59 PM

As do I. And it should be remembered that Craig's tests measure steady-state output. The DD-18's servos may well permit significantly higher short-term output than his measurements indicate.
Ageed, but Craig also still indicated that the f113 had more Slam for movies as did the other owner I eluded to in my eariler post that owns both the DD-18 and f113 as well. This with the servo cotrol turned all the way down as well. In fact I remeber my dealer (deals with both Velo and JL) saying that this particular owner said it was not even close in the "slam" factor, with the f113 being the clear winner for movies. I guess maybe it's just the subjective thing. :)
That and maybe the EQ and room placement factors. Though my dealer has mentioned to me many times that in his opinion, the DD series is not the best for that ultimate "slam" factor because of the servo control (even when the control is turned all the way down).

MusicFirst

12-04-06, 03:34 PM

I used the same settings on my Parasound Pre and the subs are in virtually the same location.

I did not bring out the SPL meter or take any other form of measurements.
One other thing that just came to mind, if you just used the same settings without actually "level-matching" with a SPL meter, then it is also quite possible that the DD-18 was simply turned up a bit more compared to the f113 (if you just set it up intially "by ear" to match the rest of your system). Plus (and probably more importantly) one thing I know can really make a dramatic effect is polarity and phase adjustments (along of course with the actual EQing of the FR) in the DD/SMS-1 EQ as far as ultimate output goes. So if your DD-18 was optomized in this way (and I'm sure it is since you have had it awhile) and the f113 is not, that can dramtically effect output. At least it did for me when I was setting up my f113 with my SMS-1.

Food for thought. :)

RMK!

12-04-06, 03:48 PM

One other thing that just came to mind, if you just used the same settings without actually "level-matching" with a SPL meter, then it is also quite possible that the DD-18 was simply turned up a bit more compared to the f113 (if you just set it up intially "by ear" to match the rest of your system). Plus (and probably more importantly) one thing I know can really make a dramatic effect is polarity and phase adjustments (along of course with the actual EQing of the FR) in the DD/SMS-1 EQ as far as ultimate output goes. So if your DD-18 was optomized in this way (and I'm sure it is since you have had it awhile) and the f113 is not, that can dramtically effect output. At least it did for me when I was setting up my f113 with my SMS-1.

Food for thought. :)

The Parasound's speaker level distance setup was used to level match both units. Unlike the SMS-1, the DD room correction software only affects/adjusts the DD and is not applicable to any other sub. I used the F113 ARO per the manual. The phase on both units was set to 0 and I played with the gain on the F113 up to the 12 o-clock position.

MusicFirst

12-04-06, 04:02 PM

The Parasound's speaker level distance setup was used to level match both units. Unlike the SMS-1, the DD room correction software only affects/adjusts the DD and is not applicable to any other sub. I used the F113 ARO per the manual. The phase on both units was set to 0 and I played with the gain on the F113 up to the 12 o-clock position.
Does the parasound have some type of Mic setup to actually acurately adjust levels? If not speaker distance settings will only do so much. And actually you can at least see what the FR curve looks like on the f113 using the DD-18 EQ. You can't adjust for it using the controls, but I remember seeing Curt C. or someone from Velo saying you can at least view what another subs FR looks like and the levels. Not sure how, but may be worth checking out and then adjusting levels/phase and polarity on the f113 while you are watching it for flattest response and best output at the critical frequencies.

Richard Mayer

12-04-06, 04:20 PM

Thanks RMK!

Could you post (take a pic of the screen) the frequency responses for both subs? IMO that could explain a lot. Correct me if I'm being wrong, but isn't it possible to use Velo's software to measure other sub's FR?

TheEAR

12-04-06, 04:46 PM

Interesting read,one thing I found is the f113 has more low end grunt than the HGS18. And when it comes to slam,the HGS18 apears to have better slam,as it has majour output down to 30hz and starts rolling off.

The f113 has also rollof like any sealed sub in a compact cabinet.Simply it starts more around 25Hz. Being more linear at high SPL it apears to lack a bit of the slam the HGS18 has.

It is perception

FRENCHY1969

12-04-06, 06:09 PM

jhan1000

12-04-06, 06:17 PM

Well you know what they say about opinions, don't you? ;)
....

Don't get me wrong, I really like the F113. It is a very well made subwoofer and if I didn't already have the DD-18, I might consider the F113 due to its smaller size. But in considering the street prices of the DD-18's and the fact that I would have to purchase an SMS-1 to EQ the Fathom, the price issue becomes a moot point.

Disclaimer, with all the variables at play here, your experience may be different than mine. This was a listening test only. My observations were confirmed by my fiancé who tolerates my hobby because she really enjoys good quality HT :). I did not bring out the SPL meter or take any other form of measurements.

Thanks for posting your impressions! That was very informative.

im the man

12-04-06, 08:32 PM

Do you guys recommend a SMS-1 for the f113, even though it has the ARO?

TheEAR

12-04-06, 08:36 PM

I am new to this post but would like everyones input on whether the Fathom j113 would outperform the Klipsch THX Ultra II subs (a pair) in my media room. It is 19x18x9 ft. Octogan in shape with an open entry on one side approx. 5ft by 8 ft.
I have been following this post with great interest and had to join.
My dealer says the 2 Klipsch subs will outperform the Fathom but says the Fathom sounds great on its own. Any advice would be appreciated.
New to high end audio.
My equipment is as follows.

B & W Signature 8 inwalls upfront.
B & W signature switchable monopole/dipole inwalls in rear.
Paradigm Seismic 12/Sub
Vidikron Projector.
Stewart Firehawk 92 inch Screen.
Nad T733 Receiver.
Nad T534 Dvd Player.
Panamax Power Conditioner.
Polk Audio XM Tuner
Integra Stereo Receiver/Whole House Audio

Help.

If by outperform you equal play louder,YES a pair of Klipsch THX subs/amp will OUTBLAST a single f113,they will also outblast SVS 's twin woofer Ultra.

That is where the gains END.

You want better sub bass quality you will get dual f113's,then you will have monster SPL and keep a level of quality few subs at any price match and even less better.

And this is not to knock the Klipsch THX subs,these are by far thye best quality and most capable Klipsch subs made.

The Bogg

12-04-06, 08:44 PM

TJEli

12-04-06, 08:51 PM

Whats the price for 2 of those Klipsch subs with the amp to power them?

-Eli

im the man

12-04-06, 08:56 PM

Whats the price for 2 of those Klipsch subs with the amp to power them?

-Eli
one KW-12-THX sub is 1,250 msrp.
one KA-1000-THX amp 1,400 msrp.

TheEAR

12-04-06, 09:54 PM

Klipsch twin THX passive sub combo with the matching amp is one of the great bargains in audio,as far as HT subs go. Huge output,compact size and good definition.

But like I've said depends what you are looking for,for me dual f113 are it for compact subs.And are plenty even in large rooms. The FATHOM subs will blend so much better with ease.

Sealed is the way to go for music

RMK!

12-04-06, 10:14 PM

Does the parasound have some type of Mic setup to actually acurately adjust levels? If not speaker distance settings will only do so much. And actually you can at least see what the FR curve looks like on the f113 using the DD-18 EQ. You can't adjust for it using the controls, but I remember seeing Curt C. or someone from Velo saying you can at least view what another subs FR looks like and the levels. Not sure how, but may be worth checking out and then adjusting levels/phase and polarity on the f113 while you are watching it for flattest response and best output at the critical frequencies.

The Parasound does have a Mic and an excellent setup program. In order to use the DD-18's room correction program, the DD-18 needs to be playing. I was alternating between the two subs and listening only. I suppose I could turn the volume all the way down on the Velo and just have the JL playing by using the Velo's pass through signal.

The Bogg

12-05-06, 12:21 AM

Couple of questions about the Fathom 113 for anyone including Manville:

1. How much power (watts) does the unit draw from the wall at idle and at full output? Helps me decide what rating line conditioner to get.

2. I had hoped to connect a pair of subs to my stereo and home theater. My home theater front speaker output goes through the "bypass" mode in my stereo preamp whenever I'm watching movies and this stereo preamp uses balanced outputs to the amp driving my main speakers. I had planned on connecting the pair of subs as follows:

1 balanced output from the LFE channel to each of the subs (my processor the Anthem D1 has 2 balanced mono outputs). Connection between my stereo preamp to the balanced inputs of each sub using an adaptor. I just noticed in the manual that it said not to do that. Is it really a no-no? If I take the unbalanced output from my stereo preamp into the unbalanced output of the sub will it sum the balanced and unbalanced inputs? The manual just says not to use both unbalanced and balanced at the same time.

I'd appreciate some answers from anyone who knows.

The Bogg

GaryMB

12-05-06, 02:03 AM

Hi GaryMB and any other canucks:

Just give Dave at Gem-Sen a call. I can't say enough about how impressed I am with his availability and willingness to work with a potential customer. Other manufacturers should take note. One of the things drawing me towards JL Fathom subs (apart from the subs themselves of course) is how available Manville Smith is to answer questions etc.... Reminds me of James Tanner of Bryston, another company I respect based on their customer service.

I'm working on getting some Fathoms and JL owes guys like Dave and Manville a little bonus I think!

The BoggI guess you missed my earlier post (#692) above. I did indeed talk to Dave At Gem-Sen earlier today and certainly had a similar positive reaction. The Canadian list prices (>50% higher than U.S. list) are awfully high, however, even when taking into account all the costs involved in importing these subs... Dave's reluctance to quote the prices was palpable, even over the phone. There does appear to be significant room for negotiation with some dealers, at least.

I still haven't received a reply to my week-old e-mail to Manville Smith, however. OTOH, as I explained to Dave, the answer to the question I posed to Mr. Smith (f112 vs. f113) has since become moot. If I decide to make the jump to a sub in this class/price range, it'll be the f113 for sure.

new27

12-05-06, 09:09 AM

Gary, when you say the msrp is 50% higher, you mean in CAD funds, as in 4600.00 ?

b curry

12-05-06, 10:20 AM

Originally Posted by im the man
Do you guys recommend a SMS-1 for the f113, even though it has the ARO? If you read this thread, I know it's getting long, you will see most are happy with the results from A.R.O. and feel the SMS-1 is redundant. One poster (nethomas here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9016376)) sold his SMS-1 and is running two f113's with A.R.O.

No doubt the SMS-1 is a break through product and the market is better for it. However, it is not without its flaws as well. The SMS-1 has eight channels and runs at 1/3 octave. 1/3 octave is wide enough to miss some bumps in the road. In other words it's possible to have a peak, dip, or room mode in between the step and completely miss it and the SMS-1 won't correct for it. If you use a room mode calculator, you can see this is a very real probability.

If your going to buy an f113, I would try it without the SMS-1 first. You can also run a tone sweep and measure with a dB meter before you invest in the SMS-1. You may be pleasantly surprised.

GaryMB

12-05-06, 10:32 AM

Gary, when you say the msrp is 50% higher, you mean in CAD funds, as in 4600.00 ?I believe it's OK to post list prices on the forum. Assuming this to be true... f112 is $4100 CAD in satin, $4200 CAD in gloss. f113 is $5000 CAD in satin, $5100 CAD in gloss. :eek:

FRENCHY1969

12-05-06, 10:50 AM

In response to theEar's comment regarding the Klipsch THX Ultra II subs vs the fathom. I can purchase both Klipsch subs and the matching amp for less that one of the Fathom j113. Is it fair then to say that two fathoms would be better than the two Klipsch THX ? I should hope so at more than twice the price. My secondary concern is the irregular shape of the room(octagon) and one opening that has no door to seal it off. A velodyne SMS1 attached to a Klipsch amp attached to the two Klpsch subs seems a little convaluted and asking for other problems. Any opinions ?

TheEAR

12-05-06, 10:54 AM

I believe it's OK to post list prices on the forum. Assuming this to be true... f112 is $4100 CAD in satin, $4200 CAD in gloss. f113 is $5000 CAD in satin, $5100 CAD in gloss. :eek:

Yes the markup the middle man's middle man makes is a farce. Unjustfied to say the least. I will buy directly from the US.

From $3200 US to $5100 CANADIAN....this is not the current change,this is a royal heist.Period

dave_gemsen

12-05-06, 10:55 AM

GaryMB,

I'm glad we had the chance to talk yesterday and look forward to chatting in the future. Yes you did detect a little hesitation when I was quoting MSRP. As with anything sold up here, prices are often higher than the USA and I wanted to make sure that you had a firm understanding of what was involved since some people initially suffer from a bit of sticker shock.

People will often look at US pricing and then do the currency conversion to estimate what they feel the Canadian cost should be. Unfortunately this isn't the way it really works.
Lets say you were a snowbird like many Canadians are who vanish down into sunny Florida at the first sight of frost. While you are down there you visit a local JL AUDIO dealer who sells you a Fathom for your HT that you have at your home in Toronto.

You would obviously pay the US price plus the exchange rate. Great, now you need to get it home. The Fathoms are well protected and the boxes are huge. Unless you drive a mini van and are willing to remove a row of seats (like I have to) you are going to ship it. At 150Lbs shipping is very very expensive. Once it hits the border UPS, FEDEx will tack on their additional brokerage fees for clearing the box for you. Our Prime Minister will quickly point out that it's not NAFTA and they will add the duty and just when you think you're finished they'll add Federal and provincial sales taxes.

I know there are people who are willing to drive into the US and pick it up themselves to save the freight and brokerage and so be it, I can certainly relate to wanting to save a buck. Not everyone has that luxury and as a legitimate company, we must go through all the proper channels.
Once the items get here we need to ship them out to our retailers across Canada once again which I mentioned is far from inexpensive. At the end of the day it's all factored into the final pricing. The good news is that warranty can be taken care of right here in Toronto should anything require servicing.

Yes there is a premium to pay to have the luxury of picking an item up at your local dealer. Unforuately premiums seem to be a fact of life for Canadians.

At the end of the day, the MSRP is our suggested retail price. Your relationship with your dealer, other items you decide to purchase be it installation or hardware will all play a role to what you and your dealer agree upon.

msmith_JL

12-05-06, 10:55 AM

I still haven't received a reply to my week-old e-mail to Manville Smith

Sorry about that Gary... check your e-mail.

bbrc

12-05-06, 10:58 AM

I believe it's OK to post list prices on the forum. Assuming this to be true... f112 is $4100 CAD in satin, $4200 CAD in gloss. f113 is $5000 CAD in satin, $5100 CAD in gloss. :eek:

Thank you very munch i tryed to get list price to, why is it so hard
to get these price if its in my price range i go for it if its
to munch i go for other option :)

msmith_JL

12-05-06, 11:01 AM

Couple of questions about the Fathom 113 for anyone including Manville:

1. How much power (watts) does the unit draw from the wall at idle and at full output? Helps me decide what rating line conditioner to get.
I've asked for an answer from engineering. I do know that in sleep condition it draws less than 5W... I'll get the other numbers for you.

2. I had hoped to connect a pair of subs to my stereo and home theater. My home theater front speaker output goes through the "bypass" mode in my stereo preamp whenever I'm watching movies and this stereo preamp uses balanced outputs to the amp driving my main speakers. I had planned on connecting the pair of subs as follows:

1 balanced output from the LFE channel to each of the subs (my processor the Anthem D1 has 2 balanced mono outputs). Connection between my stereo preamp to the balanced inputs of each sub using an adaptor. I just noticed in the manual that it said not to do that. Is it really a no-no? If I take the unbalanced output from my stereo preamp into the unbalanced output of the sub will it sum the balanced and unbalanced inputs? The manual just says not to use both unbalanced and balanced at the same time.

I've asked the engineers for a reply to this one as well.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

dave_gemsen

12-05-06, 11:33 AM

Seems like I took a little too long to compose my last post. I started typing shortly after 9AM but see that theres been a few posts in between the interuptions here at work.

TheEar, I'm sure you feel that the middleman is taking your money and while there is undoubtably "a cut" factored in for everything that is required to market, train and service products north of the border, it is far from what you may perceive.
I'm quite familiar with almost every Canadian transaction that has occured. I'm sure Radio St. Hubert offers solutions and services that you would find very hard to find from a phone call to the US.

It sounds like you are having a great time with your sub(s) and I appreciate your advocacy. Should you require anything in terms of service I'm at your disposal and in terms of shipping only a day away.

DreamCatcher

12-05-06, 12:43 PM

If you read this thread, I know it's getting long, you will see most are happy with the results from A.R.O. and feel the SMS-1 is redundant. One poster (nethomas here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9016376)) sold his SMS-1 and is running two f113's with A.R.O.

No doubt the SMS-1 is a break through product and the market is better for it. However, it is not without its flaws as well. The SMS-1 has eight channels and runs at 1/3 octave. 1/3 octave is wide enough to miss some bumps in the road. In other words it's possible to have a peak, dip, or room mode in between the step and completely miss it and the SMS-1 won't correct for it. If you use a room mode calculator, you can see this is a very real probability.

If your going to buy an f113, I would try it without the SMS-1 first. You can also run a tone sweep and measure with a dB meter before you invest in the SMS-1. You may be pleasantly surprised.
However in the manual mode, those adjusters/sliders can be moved to ANY frequency you choose within the 15-110hz range.

dc

new27

12-05-06, 12:50 PM

Ear is correct again, 60% mark up is quite amusing.

gemsen boy,

please spare us your rudimentary economics , there are members here with slightly higher
education/income levels than what you're probably used to dealing with.

MusicFirst

12-05-06, 01:05 PM

However in the manual mode, those adjusters/sliders can be moved to ANY frequency you choose within the 15-110hz range.

dc
dc is correct, and you can also change the "width" of each of the bands. It is quite flexable.

GaryMB

12-05-06, 01:47 PM

gemsen boy,

please spare us your rudimentary economics , there are members here with slightly higher
education/income levels than what you're probably used to dealing with....but also some members with less class than what he's probably used to dealing with, obviously...

I think Dave made his point well. It's easy enough for someone who's good with numbers and has experience importing similar goods to get a feel for what Gem-Sen is charging for its "services". Add in the availability of a Canadian warranty and the significant value of dealing with someone like Dave who obviously cares... and make your own value judgment, as I intend to do.

Ettepet

12-05-06, 02:08 PM

I think Dave made his point well. It's easy enough for someone who's good with numbers and has experience importing similar goods to get a feel for what Gem-Sen is charging for its "services". Add in the availability of a Canadian warranty and the significant value of dealing with someone like Dave who obviously cares... and make your own value judgment, as I intend to do.

When you live close to the border any sane person who doesn't mind to drive the distance will keep the margin in their pockets. A huge percentage of Canadians live within a hundred miles so more atractive pricing seems in order.

I myself live in Europe and besides a hefty shipping charge I also have to pay close to 25% extra in duties and taxes. Even I choose to import straight from the US in stead of buying similar quality gear with the 50%-100% surcharge shops here carry (and this isn't even American gear :rolleyes: ).

im the man

12-05-06, 02:42 PM

GaryMB,

I'm glad we had the chance to talk yesterday and look forward to chatting in the future. Yes you did detect a little hesitation when I was quoting MSRP. As with anything sold up here, prices are often higher than the USA and I wanted to make sure that you had a firm understanding of what was involved since some people initially suffer from a bit of sticker shock.

People will often look at US pricing and then do the currency conversion to estimate what they feel the Canadian cost should be. Unfortunately this isn't the way it really works.
Lets say you were a snowbird like many Canadians are who vanish down into sunny Florida at the first sight of frost. While you are down there you visit a local JL AUDIO dealer who sells you a Fathom for your HT that you have at your home in Toronto.

You would obviously pay the US price plus the exchange rate. Great, now you need to get it home. The Fathoms are well protected and the boxes are huge. Unless you drive a mini van and are willing to remove a row of seats (like I have to) you are going to ship it. At 150Lbs shipping is very very expensive. Once it hits the border UPS, FEDEx will tack on their additional brokerage fees for clearing the box for you. Our Prime Minister will quickly point out that it's not NAFTA and they will add the duty and just when you think you're finished they'll add Federal and provincial sales taxes.

I know there are people who are willing to drive into the US and pick it up themselves to save the freight and brokerage and so be it, I can certainly relate to wanting to save a buck. Not everyone has that luxury and as a legitimate company, we must go through all the proper channels.
Once the items get here we need to ship them out to our retailers across Canada once again which I mentioned is far from inexpensive. At the end of the day it's all factored into the final pricing. The good news is that warranty can be taken care of right here in Toronto should anything require servicing.

Yes there is a premium to pay to have the luxury of picking an item up at your local dealer. Unforuately premiums are a fact of life for my fellow Canadians.

At the end of the day, the MSRP is our suggested retail price. Your relationship with your dealer, other items you decide to purchase be it installation or hardware will all play a role to what you and your dealer agree upon.

btw, why is gas thats probably refined from oil in Alberta and cars that are made right here in Canada far cheaper in the USA. Now someone explain that one to me.

-dave

I live in the States. I have a medium size car, so size of the f113 was an issue for me. When I bought my F113 I had to drive and hour and half a way to pick it up. Do to sheer excitement, I obviously did not want to have to wait to have it shipped to me. So I broke the box down and unscrewed the wheels took out the wood plate and placed my f113 in the front seat and the foam, wood plate, wheels, and the box, which I had broke down in the backseat of my car. I kept everything it came with just in case I had to return it for something. I Had a litte trouble seeing out my back window on the way home but other than that it worked out fine :) .

b curry

12-05-06, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by DreamCatcher
However in the manual mode, those adjusters/sliders can be moved to ANY frequency you choose within the 15-110hz range.Yes, I agree. And I think it's a great product.

But it's still 1/3 steps. If you don't see it or test for it you won't know to move or recenter the frequency for correction. 1/3 steps at default frequency centers still leaves some rather large holes. Since it's software, the SMS-1 would be much more useful in 1/12 steps. Maybe a few more channels too!

im the man

12-05-06, 02:47 PM

If you read this thread, I know it's getting long, you will see most are happy with the results from A.R.O. and feel the SMS-1 is redundant. One poster (nethomas here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=9016376)) sold his SMS-1 and is running two f113's with A.R.O.

No doubt the SMS-1 is a break through product and the market is better for it. However, it is not without its flaws as well. The SMS-1 has eight channels and runs at 1/3 octave. 1/3 octave is wide enough to miss some bumps in the road. In other words it's possible to have a peak, dip, or room mode in between the step and completely miss it and the SMS-1 won't correct for it. If you use a room mode calculator, you can see this is a very real probability.

If your going to buy an f113, I would try it without the SMS-1 first. You can also run a tone sweep and measure with a dB meter before you invest in the SMS-1. You may be pleasantly surprised.

Thanks b curry, I'll just keep running it with my ARO.

MusicFirst

12-05-06, 02:50 PM

Yes, I agree.

But it's still 1/3 steps. If you don't see it or test for it you won't know to move or recenter the frequency for correction. 1/3 steps at default frequency centers still leaves some rather large holes. Since it's software, the SMS-1 would be much more useful in 1/12 steps. Maybe a few more channels too!
You can change that width too as I eluded to earlier. Sure the default is the 1/3 step, but it can be adjusted to cover a broader or narrower band. If you are speaking of auto mode only that is true, but most people I know use manual mode to dial it in.

Jonomega

12-05-06, 02:51 PM

Yes, I agree. And I think it's a great product.

But it's still 1/3 steps. If you don't see it or test for it you won't know to move or recenter the frequency for correction. 1/3 steps at default frequency centers still leaves some rather large holes. Since it's software, the SMS-1 would be much more useful in 1/12 steps. Maybe a few more channels too!

Im not sure I follow..

Wouldnt you just do a sine sweep in REQW or similar have it record the microphone's input and display the graph? Then you just change the SMS-1 bands to fit the problem parts, measure again, and make changes accordingly...

This is of course, in manual mode.

b curry

12-05-06, 03:25 PM

As I understand it, 1/3 steps in the defined frequency range (15Hz - 199Hz for software 2.1 and 5Hz - 199Hz for software 2.12). You can recenter the graphic control to a given frequency but the curve painted on the display does not show the frequency between the 1/3 steps.

In others words the slope between 1/3 steps is smoothed from step to step (points on a graph) and will not show a spike or dip or flat line in between. Think of it as a sampling frequency. If it were done in 1/12 steps you would have higher resolution and more accurate placement of the "slider" in manual.

EDIT: While I can't find any reference in the SMS-1 manual or Velodynes brochures, I would assume the 1/3 steps to be ISO centered frequencies inside the given frequency range.

b curry

12-05-06, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by MusicFirst
You can change that width too as I eluded to earlier. Sure the default is the 1/3 step, but it can be adjusted to cover a broader or narrower band. If you are speaking of auto mode only that is true, but most people I know use manual mode to dial it in.And this may or may not be helpful since you still see the graph through a 1/3 step filter. You can adjust the width of the band channel but not the step.

msmith_JL

12-05-06, 04:56 PM

The Bogg:

I did get some answers from our engineers and they are summarized below:

Regarding idle power consumption: less than 20 watts.

Regarding power consumption while playing, it's difficult to come up with a meaningful long-term number because HT high-energy low-frequency information is present only infrequently. With steady-state test tones you can get pretty high current draws (on the order of 25A (3kW), which will overwhelm a typical household circuit if run for very long. In practice with real program material, the duration of these high current draws is short and can be supported by a typical household circuit.

If you want to use a line conditioner, we would suggest something rated for at least 3,000 watts. We honestly do not see much value in the conditioner, but it's your money.

It is our recommendation that a Fathom should plug directly into a wall outlet and that outlet should not be switched, and ideally its circuit should be shared only with low-power consumption stuff say, a few hundred watts, although we've been able to get away with more than this. Incidentally, the AC outlet iself should have its wires connected to the SCREWS on the back, not "back-wired" to the push-in holes. Builders often don't bother to do this correctly because they are lazy... and this zero-dollar mod can have much more benefit than a line conditioner.

Regarding inputs, all four of the inputs are summed together - any and all that receive signal will contribute to the output. So, in this case each of the two subs could have one XLR input from the LFE source and one (RCA ?) unbalanced source from the preamp (NOT to the other XLR through an adaptor!) connected at the same time. What we don't recommend is applying signal from the same source to two different inputs because it's redundant or applying signals from two different sources at the same time, which is silly and might damage the source units. Just make sure whichever source you're not using is turned off. Do this at your own risk.

Hope that helps,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Couple of questions about the Fathom 113 for anyone including Manville:

1. How much power (watts) does the unit draw from the wall at idle and at full output? Helps me decide what rating line conditioner to get.

2. I had hoped to connect a pair of subs to my stereo and home theater. My home theater front speaker output goes through the "bypass" mode in my stereo preamp whenever I'm watching movies and this stereo preamp uses balanced outputs to the amp driving my main speakers. I had planned on connecting the pair of subs as follows:

1 balanced output from the LFE channel to each of the subs (my processor the Anthem D1 has 2 balanced mono outputs). Connection between my stereo preamp to the balanced inputs of each sub using an adaptor. I just noticed in the manual that it said not to do that. Is it really a no-no? If I take the unbalanced output from my stereo preamp into the unbalanced output of the sub will it sum the balanced and unbalanced inputs? The manual just says not to use both unbalanced and balanced at the same time.

I'd appreciate some answers from anyone who knows.

The Bogg

TheEAR

12-05-06, 06:07 PM

"With steady-state test tones you can get pretty high current draws (on the order of 25A (3kW)"

Good thing I have one dedicated line per JL sub. ;)

A quick uestion for the fellow JL Audio and AVS sub fanatics...

Should I go and buy multiples of each? Two f113 would be in front and the two f112's in the rear. I am thinking about making the jump. Sriously considering.

All this for a more even response,and of course near limitless output,as I like to listen to my pipe organ CD's at lets say realistic SPL.

The Bogg

12-05-06, 08:06 PM

Hey TheEAR,
why not hook up all 30 of your subs simultaneously?! Your organ cds will help you digest.

Manville,

thanks for your reply. It's not exactly a line conditioner per se. I'm looking at plugging everything into Equitech Balanced units which helps minimize ground loops and power line noise. I have one already and it's amazing. Thanks for the tip re: wiring the outlet. Once my dedicated lines are in I'll be sure to have the outlets wired correctly. I'm not sure where you got the info re: peaks of 30amps with the class D amplifier on the subs but I'll bet at most it's for milliseconds!
I've run most of my system except for my Krell Class A amp through a 20amp Equitech with no limiting.

I don't know why hooking up 2 sources as described would put them at any risk...can you explain? As far as the sub is concerned it's just summing the inputs whatever they are so the number of sources shouldn't matter. Perhaps it's a ground loop thing?

I'm not sure I want to have dedicated lines for each sub like TheEAR (perhaps he should be renamed TheWALLET) but I do plan on having both subs and a tv on a 20amp circuit so I just wanted an idea of power consumption. Most products give you a typical rating (e.g. my tv is 350watts, my other sub is 600 watts etc...) so I wanted to make sure I was at least in the ballpark. The Fathoms have class d amps so they should be a lot more efficient than some of the stuff I have.

Let me clarify the 2 sources into the sub thing. I use an Anthem D1 for home theater and I run the front speaker line level outputs through the theater bypass inputs of my Krell preamp to send the front speaker signal to my main speakers which are the dedicated stereo speakers and also the fronts in the home theater setup. I was planning on using the subs in conjunction with each front speaker while listening to the stereo, and via LFE input for the movies. Therefore, there will be 2 sources hooked up to the subs but when watching movies both the Anthem and the Krell will have to be on. I may have to rethink my plan because it is somewhat flawed - both the lfe and the bass from the fronts will go into the sub which may not be optimal and which will also depend on the crossover setting on the sub. I'll try them when they come and then decide how best to do things but thanks for the info from the engineers.

The Bogg

TheEAR

12-05-06, 08:24 PM

TJEli

12-05-06, 08:28 PM

The Bogg,

Oh come on,be a good sport. Do not hate me like Sizzouf. :p

If I remember I read on these forums that JL Audio used several subs in thier demo room,to great effect. I want simply to replicate a similar sub bass experience at home.

You should let your credit cards cool off before they melt. And seriously, if you have that much disposable income, give some of it to your favorite charity.

TheEAR

12-05-06, 08:50 PM

You should let your credit cards cool off before they melt. And seriously, if you have that much disposable income, give some of it to your favorite charity.

My favorite charity right about now is JL . Do not worry about any meltdowns,no danger here.

Kal Rubinson

12-05-06, 08:54 PM

Yes, I agree. And I think it's a great product.

But it's still 1/3 steps. If you don't see it or test for it you won't know to move or recenter the frequency for correction. 1/3 steps at default frequency centers still leaves some rather large holes. Since it's software, the SMS-1 would be much more useful in 1/12 steps. Maybe a few more channels too!

1/3 octave or what? In manual mode, each of the 8 filters can be moved in finer than 1/3octave increments and the Q of each can be adjusted. Auto/default mode is not the best way to use it and, imho, should only be used if you cannot connect an video monitor. It is more flexible and capable than the single band in the JL.

That said, the single band PEQ of the JL may be pretty much all that is needed and it was in my main room, as confirmed by TEF (and SMS-1!) measurements.

Kal Rubinson

12-05-06, 09:00 PM

The Bogg

12-05-06, 09:06 PM

Hey TheEAR,

sorry, I thought it was obvious I was joking. I don't know what a Sizzouf is?
Who said I hated you? I don't hate you, or envy you, or anything. Don't even know you...but you do seem interesting!

Seriously though, one has to wonder what 30 simultaneous subs sound like?!
From what I've read, 4 well placed subs will give a great experience in most rectangular listening rooms (there's a great article on the internet about an experiment with different numbers of subs and the results show that 4 are good)

Do you have a list of your gear, including subs? I think you wrote somewhere that it would take too long to write - what's your main stuff?

Back on topic...thanks to reviews by Kal Rubinson, this forum, and Hometheatersound, I'm gonna jump in and get a pair of the F113s. I'd been holding out for a pair of the ATC C6 subs to match my ATC setup but they cost way more and haven't heard or seen them yet. Maybe I'll take the money saved and buy another pair of F113s!!!!

Can't wait to crack a few dvds like WOTW, Incredibles, LOTR etc.. when the subs come!

b curry

12-05-06, 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson
...That said, the single band PEQ of the JL may be pretty much all that is needed and it was in my main room, as confirmed by TEF (and SMS-1!) measurements.Correct. Which was, in effect, my original statement.

Originally Posted by b curry
If you read this thread, I know it's getting long, you will see most are happy with the results from A.R.O. and feel the SMS-1 is redundant. One poster (nethomas here) sold his SMS-1 and is running two f113's with A.R.O.

No doubt the SMS-1 is a break through product and the market is better for it. However, it is not without its flaws as well. The SMS-1 has eight channels and runs at 1/3 octave. 1/3 octave is wide enough to miss some bumps in the road. In other words it's possible to have a peak, dip, or room mode in between the step and completely miss it and the SMS-1 won't correct for it. If you use a room mode calculator, you can see this is a very real probability.

If your going to buy an f113, I would try it without the SMS-1 first. You can also run a tone sweep and measure with a dB meter before you invest in the SMS-1. You may be pleasantly surprised.So now we've come full circle.

msmith_JL

12-05-06, 09:25 PM

Kal makes a very profound point here.... that going after minor response deviations is not always useful outside of the specific point in space where the mic. is placed. It can actually detract from performance in the seats adjacent to the main seat and even in the main seat if the head position shifts up or down or side to side a bit. By far the most important thing is dealing with the primary room mode in an effective manner... that is 90% of the benefit of room optimization and it will improve performance in and around the primary seat.

In other words... While you may be able to get a measurably smoother response for a given mic position with more bands of eq, the audible benefits of correcting smaller errors are orders of magnitude less significant than the primary mode correction and can in fact compromise response in adjacent seats.

Another point is that when you use aggressive boosting to try and correct a null or a lack of extension, you are chasing your tail and possibly compromising the dynamic capabilities of the system with real program material. It's really impossible to correct a severe null by boosting EQ and attempting to do so is detrimental to sound quality. In other cases, the subwoofer might have built-in HP filtering for a darned good reason and you are trying to fight that filter with the correction. For example, stacking a bunch of filters at 20 Hz and boosting them each by 6dB results in 18dB of boost (demanding 64x the power at that frequency) and can create tremendous stress and increased distortion due to amp clipping, thermal compression of the driver, mechanical distress, etc. If your sub is servo controlled this will limit itself but you are still introducing severe non-linearities into the equation.

In practice, the highly adaptive parametric filter in the A.R.O. system will achieve excellent response in and around the primary seat in almost any room. That being said, a careful and thoughtful calibration with a product like the SMS-1 can improve things... but a careless one can make things worse. Not trying to scare anyone here, just pointing out that eq is to be treated with care and respect and requires an understanding of what is happening when you move the sliders.

TheEAR

12-05-06, 09:47 PM

The Bogg,

I know you were joking,Sizzouf is a member who likes to potshot me with nonsense and is mistaking me for Jack the Ripper or something!

Well yes my list of gear is way too big,take over ten years of buying audio at an alarming rate. Bad I tell you,it is clutter there is so much. Krell,SimAudio Moon, Bryston,Dynaudio,Totem,Anthem,PS Audio and loads of other makes.

Anyway back to JL subs,I am serious about four JL subs,I want to take the next step in subsonic performance. Not that one is lacking much here. By Christmas I should have them home,as I will have two weeks vaccation.

Talking about the ARO it works great,Velodyne's SMS is great when used with moderation and common sense,as it is very easy to stress any sub with to much boost applied where the sub falls off.

msmith_JL

12-05-06, 09:48 PM

The 30A situation would only occur with steady-state tones (sine waves) at certain frequencies and at full gonzo output and would probably trip a breaker after a few seconds. You are absolutely correct that when we look at current ratings of a circuit you have to consider the time dimension. A 15A circuit can deliver well over 15A (your refrigerator draws a ton of current when the compressor kicks in, for example) but as long as the average current is below that 15A you are ok.

The amplifier in the Fathoms is 80% efficient, meaning that to produce 2500W it uses 3000W, to produce 80W it uses 100W, etc.... the duration of high energy demands with any listening material is very short and does not present any problems in practice. Also, it is important to note that throughout most of the driver's impedance curve, the impedance is higher than 3 ohms so the amp will produce less power for the same voltage into the driver, and demand less power from the wall accordingly.

One way to look at it is to monitor voltage sag in the AC circuit. We ran some measurements of this when we did our full-output SPL tests on the f113 and at no time did the line voltage at the sub's power cord drop below 111V with seriously demanding sine-sweeps. The biggest drop occured when generating 119.2 dB (ground plane at 2m) at 80 Hz. In the "meat" of the sub-bass between 31 and 50 Hz the line voltage remained above 115V with SPL levels in the 120dB region. At 20 Hz, it sagged to 112.6V with 108.8dB of output... With real HT material the line voltage rarely drops more than 2 volts during heavy demand segments, so its really not a problem, even with two Fathoms on one circuit. I wouldn't run two Gothams on one circuit, though. :)'

As for your Equitech units.... try the Fathoms without them first... we put a lot of effort into filtering and noise mitigation and I really don't think you will need them. The less that exists between the Fathom's power supply and the AC circuit, the better.

As for the two sources into one Fathom issue, I'll look into that further.

Best regards,

Manville Smith
JL Audio, Inc.

Hey TheEAR,
why not hook up all 30 of your subs simultaneously?! Your organ cds will help you digest.

Manville,

thanks for your reply. It's not exactly a line conditioner per se. I'm looking at plugging everything into Equitech Balanced units which helps minimize ground loops and power line noise. I have one already and it's amazing. Thanks for the tip re: wiring the outlet. Once my dedicated lines are in I'll be sure to have the outlets wired correctly. I'm not sure where you got the info re: peaks of 30amps with the class D amplifier on the subs but I'll bet at most it's for milliseconds!
I've run most of my system except for my Krell Class A amp through a 20amp Equitech with no limiting.

I don't know why hooking up 2 sources as described would put them at any risk...can you explain? As far as the sub is concerned it's just summing the inputs whatever they are so the number of sources shouldn't matter. Perhaps it's a ground loop thing?

I'm not sure I want to have dedicated lines for each sub like TheEAR (perhaps he should be renamed TheWALLET) but I do plan on having both subs and a tv on a 20amp circuit so I just wanted an idea of power consumption. Most products give you a typical rating (e.g. my tv is 350watts, my other sub is 600 watts etc...) so I wanted to make sure I was at least in the ballpark. The Fathoms have class d amps so they should be a lot more efficient than some of the stuff I have.

Let me clarify the 2 sources into the sub thing. I use an Anthem D1 for home theater and I run the front speaker line level outputs through the theater bypass inputs of my Krell preamp to send the front speaker signal to my main speakers which are the dedicated stereo speakers and also the fronts in the home theater setup. I was planning on using the subs in conjunction with each front speaker while listening to the stereo, and via LFE input for the movies. Therefore, there will be 2 sources hooked up to the subs but when watching movies both the Anthem and the Krell will have to be on. I may have to rethink my plan because it is somewhat flawed - both the lfe and the bass from the fronts will go into the sub which may not be optimal and which will also depend on the crossover setting on the sub. I'll try them when they come and then decide how best to do things but thanks for the info from the engineers.

The Bogg

GaryMB

12-05-06, 10:05 PM

Great stuff, Manville! My last vestiges of resistance are slowly melting away (I suppose the after-effect of the wine with dinner helps...)

You and Dave S. at Gem-Sen have certainly redeemed yourselves since my earlier post (#682). :o

Moose3000

12-05-06, 10:29 PM

Which is potentially a better approach for music playback in a large room:
2 Fathoms F112s operating in stereo mode or 1 Fathom F113 operating in mono?

msmith_JL

12-05-06, 11:06 PM

Which is potentially a better approach for music playback in a large room:
2 Fathoms F112s operating in stereo mode or 1 Fathom F113 operating in mono?

Probably two in mono connected in master/slave mode with A.R.O. correction. I know many people swear by the stereo subwoofer approach for two-channel audio, but in my experience I have gotten better performance in mono with the two subs placed carefully to average out room modes. Your mileage may vary and you can try it either way. ;)

The Bogg

12-05-06, 11:19 PM

The biggest drop occured when generating 125.5 dB (ground plane at 2m) at 80 Hz. In the "meat" of the sub-bass between 31 and 50 Hz the line voltage remained above 115V with SPL levels in the 125dB region. At 20 Hz, it sagged to 109V with 114dB of output... With real HT material the line voltage rarely drops more than 2 volts during heavy demand segments, so its really not a problem, even with two Fathoms on one circuit. I wouldn't run two Gothams on one circuit, though. :)'

Are you serious, a single fathom f113 can put out 114db at 20hz????!!!! Holy cow, if that's true then stop the press! Drooling foolishly right now.

As for your Equitech units.... try the Fathoms without them first... we put a lot of effort into filtering and noise mitigation and I really don't think you will need them. The less that exists between the Fathom's power supply and the AC circuit, the better.

My understanding with products like the Equitech etc... is that there is less "resistance" to providing the power to the product attached to it so that there is less likely to be voltage drop with rapid transients etc..., kind of like a buffer. Anyway, I'll try it both ways.